Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 6 of 8)

Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 6 of 8)

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a telephone at desk 22, the desk of Mr. Bates, or does that telephone serve both desks?

Mr. NEWNAM. Both desks--it serves both desks--yes--extension 386.

Mr. HUBERT. You have previously designated or stated the names of persons who occupied the various desks which are numbered on Exhibit No. 4 and I would like to ask you now whether at the time you saw Jack Ruby, to wit, 12:40 on November 22, 1963--whether all those people were seated at their desk at that time?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; they were not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of who was there and who wasn’t?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well, this is of course very vague. In our office people are coming and going and each tending to take care of his own routine matters and you just get to where you pay little attention to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, was Mr. Campbell there?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; Mr. Campbell was not there--he was out of the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Jeffery in his office, which has been already identified by you on chart 4?

Mr. NEWNAM. At that time I didn’t know whether he was or not. There were a number of salesmen in. I think Mr. Allen, Mr. Rea, and Mr. Johnson.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they weren’t all there?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that only a quarter of them were there?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, this was the lunch hour, and----

Mr. HUBERT. And the Presidential parade, too?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right, and a number of them were over watching the motorcade.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Miss Georgia Mayor or Mrs. Georgia Mayor there, or do you remember?

Mr. NEWNAM. I believe she was--yes, she was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you describe just how you first obtained information that the President had been shot or that there had been any shooting or any rumors or extraordinary events along those lines. How did the news come to you, and where were you?

Mr. NEWNAM. I was sitting at Mr. Bates’ desk.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s No. 22?

Mr. NEWNAM. That’s No. 22.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s of Exhibit No. 4.

Mr. NEWNAM. When Mr. Coley, with several other members of the staff, I believe Mr. Mulkey was with him, and I don’t recall any others--came back and said on entering the office that the President had been shot--that there had been a shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. NEWNAM. This--I would place it--approximately 12:45.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are judging it in this way--that it was about 5 minutes after you had come in?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby sitting next to you still?

Mr. NEWNAM. He was.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether he also heard that news?

Mr. NEWNAM. He did.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he did?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well, Mr. Coley just passed down the aisle and made the remark as he entered and of course all those sitting there heard it. I assume that Jack heard the same statement I did.

Mr. HUBERT. But other than your assumption that he must have heard it because it was said--in a way, I take it, that everybody within earshot could have heard it?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, was there any reaction of a particular nature that you recall by Jack Ruby immediately upon hearing it?

Mr. NEWNAM. Of course, the reaction would be of disbelief--I think--stunned disbelief.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about his attitude or your own?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I think--of course, I am assuming that he felt that way--that was the look he had on his face. Of course, this was my belief also.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; I don’t recall he said anything.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he seemed to have what you have described as a shocked look?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that, do you know?

Mr. NEWNAM. After that--of course--confusion reigned--as was given in the testimony at the trial. The news spread quickly. My wife called me to ask me if I knew anything about it and, of course, it hadn’t been verified at the time. She had heard what he had heard. People were calling the school where she worked to find out, or this, that, and the other. Advertisers began to call to cancel advertising they had placed for the weekend--over Saturday and Sunday and possibly Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack Ruby still sitting next to you during the events you are now describing?

Mr. NEWNAM. During the events I am now describing, Jack was at my desk part of the time and other times we were over at Mr. Jeffery’s office watching what news the television had of the events.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk over to Mr. Jeffery’s office?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. With Ruby?

Mr. NEWNAM. I didn’t walk with him particularly. We just went--when we found out the television was on--we just--with others--we went to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ruby knew that advertisers were calling in canceling their ads?

Mr. NEWNAM. He did; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. NEWNAM. He so expressed himself.

Mr. HUBERT. He so expressed himself on what?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well, sir, he was standing right next to me when I accepted several calls of this nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Standing next to you--where?

Mr. NEWNAM. The one time he was standing next to me as I was accepting a call in front of desks 3 and 4, the desks of our secretaries. There is an inner-office switchboard which accepts calls for the department, and I was there and I just accepted one call there, and Jack was with me at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate that he was aware that an advertiser was canceling?

Mr. NEWNAM. He knew they were; yes, sir. This was just in conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state that your conversation with others that he could hear was such that it would be understood by anybody that you were accepting the cancellations?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time had he told you anything about canceling his own ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. Not at that time; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you walk over with him to Mr. Jeffery’s office where the television set was?

Mr. NEWNAM. We made several trips over there. As a matter of fact, he was over there at times when I was doing some work, and it was just a matter of back and forth. In other words, the promotion people were listening and everybody was trying to figure out what was going on--there was general confusion all over the office.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t suppose that everybody was in Mr. Jeffery’s office, but that some were looking through the glass?

Mr. NEWNAM. There were a number inside and most of them outside because the offices--the nature of the office--its size--would prohibit everyone getting inside.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s attitude throughout this period?

Mr. NEWNAM. His attitude was that of most everyone else--I would say of everyone else--the attitude of disbelief, an emotional upset, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying?

Mr. NEWNAM. I never noticed he was crying; no, sir. This was brought out when I was questioned before, but I don’t recall that he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you recall--I think you stated in here--that he called up his sister, and had you listen to her--where did that take place?

Mr. NEWNAM. This took place at my desk.

Mr. HUBERT. He called her from your desk?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe him call her?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know her, did you?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he come to put you on the phone? Give us the details about that episode.

Mr. NEWNAM. I was using the telephone on the desk behind my desk, these are telephones servicing desks 20 and 21.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir--trying to contact an account of mine regarding an ad running the next day. Jack used the telephone at my desk to call his sister, and when I had completed my call, he just motioned to me--we were standing almost side-by-side, and he motioned to me to listen and held the phone up to my ear.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to the lady then?

Mr. NEWNAM. I didn’t say a word then; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do?

Mr. NEWNAM. She was--I recall one particular statement she made, she says, “My God, what do they want?” And--she sounded very upset. Of course, I couldn’t tell whether she was crying or not, but I would assume she was, and I didn’t say a word to her, and I just handed the phone back to Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything to her?

Mr. NEWNAM. I believe he was trying to calm her down, but I don’t recall any specific conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether that conversation with his sister took place before you went to look at the TV or after, or can you place the time in any way?

Mr. NEWNAM. This was after--I believe we had made--I had made one trip over there to just check what news there was, and I believe this was after. Now, the exact time--what time--I don’t believe I could place it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Ruby was there when the announcement of the President’s death came over the air?

Mr. NEWNAM. I believe he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his reaction was at that time?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall--whether I even was talking to him or even saw him when that came over the air.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he was there when the announcement of the shooting of Tippit came over the air by radio or television?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I believe he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment or did he have any observable reaction as to that news?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall any statement to that effect. I don’t recall even where he was when that news came over the television.

Mr. HUBERT. But you think he was there?

Mr. NEWNAM. I think he was; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?

Mr. NEWNAM. The exact time--I couldn’t place specifically--I would say between--it was 1:30 or thereafter.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that, sir?

Mr. NEWNAM. I fix that from the standpoint that he paid me some money for some ads he had run a few days before or a day before and he didn’t have enough money to pay me for the ad he was running the next day, so I just made the remark “I’ll see you next week,” which was routine in fact, and he said--he just nodded and said, “yes,” and he walked on out the door. I place that time also by the fact that----

Mr. HUBERT. Now, before you leave that--that paying of the money doesn’t of itself, as I understand it, fix the time unless you relate it to something else?

Mr. NEWNAM. No; I’m relating it to you because that was the last transaction we had. That was the last time I saw Jack. Immediately thereafter there were a number of us who were getting together to try to figure out where we might go to have lunch and it was before 2 o’clock because our cafeteria closes ordinarily at 2 o’clock, and we finally wound up going to the cafeteria eating a light lunch. This is how I place the time--approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. Then the last dealing you had with Ruby was the payment of the money?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In point of time you think that was approximately 20 minutes prior to the 2 o’clock shutdown of the cafeteria?

Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the cafeteria it was about to close?

Mr. NEWNAM. Really, I don’t know whether they were going to close that day or not. I’ll be real frank with you--it ordinarily does at 2 o’clock; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you place the time of his departure relative to the time that you first heard that the President was dead?

Mr. NEWNAM. That might be a little difficult to do.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s approach it this way: Is it your recollection that he was present when the announcement came that the President was dead?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I’m sure he was in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that fixes it in your mind that way, so that you are able to say “I’m sure he was there”?

Mr. NEWNAM. The only thing that would fix it would be the fact that the announcement was made, but I don’t even recall what time the announcement was made now. I may be assuming that he was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any reaction of his to the fact of the President’s death? You see, there was first the announcement of the shooting?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then there was the Tippit shooting and then ultimately of course came the announcement of the President’s death. Is there any recollection in your mind as to his reaction to that ultimate announcement of the death?

Mr. NEWNAM. No specific; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. After he paid you the money, did you immediately leave with your friends to go and find something to eat?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time elapsed between the time he paid you the money and you left?

Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, I would say some 20 or 30 minutes, I don’t know exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s get at it this way: How much time elapsed, do you think, between the time of the announcement of the President’s death and the time you left to go to eat?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well. I don’t recall really the specific time the announcement was made. This leaves me a little bit undecided as to the specific amount of time that would elapse in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when you heard of the President’s death?

Mr. NEWNAM. I was still in the department.

Mr. HUBERT. But were you at your desk?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall that. We were moving from desk to desk--the boss had me handling cancellations or whatever happened to come up--we were still trying to take care of the business and do what was necessary. I do not recall exactly where I was when that announcement came out.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it be possible that Ruby left as early as, say 1 o’clock or 1:15?

Mr. NEWNAM. I wouldn’t think so--I wouldn’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll get at it at still another way: You first came in of course at 12:40?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is a rather definite point--now, when Jack paid you the money, which was the last time you saw him--is another point--how much time do you think there would be between those two points, to wit, 12:40 and the time he paid you the money?

Mr. NEWNAM. I’m--approximately about 50 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would mean he left approximately at 1:30?

Mr. NEWNAM. Around that; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told by him--had he told you then that he was canceling his ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you that at all, then, did he?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; I don’t recall that he told me he was canceling it. I believe it was discussed. He had mentioned something about he might, but he didn’t cancel the ad; it was changed.

Mr. HUBERT. Changed really to state he was going to be closed?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether he would close the club unless he knew the President was dead?

Mr. NEWNAM. I think the action that he observed of what was going on with other people, motivated Jack to close his club.

Mr. HUBERT. Or to make the announcement?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He did say he was going to close his club before he left?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t know that he specifically said that--I don’t recall it--he might have.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time that he spoke to his sister and you also listened to her, had the announcement of the President’s death been made yet?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t believe it had. We knew that the shooting had happened. We knew that he had been shot. I don’t believe that we knew specifically that he was dead. I don’t recall the exact time that we learned this information.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby talk to you about the Weissman ad--you’re familiar with that ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation with Ruby about that--what he said to you, or did he say anything?

Mr. NEWNAM. I recall there was some brief conversation about it relative to the fact that he didn’t particularly think it was in good taste or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that conversation take place, do you recall? Was it on November 22? Or, could it have been earlier?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; it had to be the 22d--no one knew about it before then. It must have been right after I came to the office and I was standing at Mr. Bates’ desk.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he remonstrating with you or what was his general attitude about it?

Mr. NEWNAM. I think he just was discussing it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he complaining that the paper had taken the ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t recall that he particularly complained about it. He was concerned about the nature of the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he express his concern?

Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, he was--of course, he had read the ad the night before. It had come out on the street in the early edition, but he was specifically--as to what he said by words, I don’t recall. It’s just a matter that he was commenting on it. I remember that. All the time I was doing some work trying to get some of the stuff out of the way.

Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the announcement of the shooting at all?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t remember the exact words, but whatever they were, he addressed himself to the Weissman ad and your recollection is that whatever he said, showed some concern, as you put it?

Mr. NEWNAM. Some concern--yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a concern favorable to the content or impact of the Weissman ad or the converse?

Mr. NEWNAM. I would say the converse.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was opposed to the Weissman ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that concern was as to “Why should such an adv. appear to be taken by the newspapers”?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; this would be the general concern.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have said that you are quite certain that the news of the Tippit shooting was known to you and to Jack prior to Jack’s leaving the office?

Mr. NEWNAM. There was knowledge that--whether the man’s name was known--but it was known that an officer had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think Jack knew that prior to leaving?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that fixes that in your mind?

Mr. NEWNAM. No; except the fact that I think he heard it and other people who were there at the time probably heard it at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, your thought is that his time of departure, which was contemporaneous with the payment of some money over to you was at approximately 1:30?

Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it could have been before the announcement of the President’s death, or after?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; because I don’t recall exactly what time that announcement came over.

Mr. HUBERT. He did mention to you that he was going to close his clubs?

Mr. NEWNAM. I think he was--it had been discussed. He didn’t say specifically that he was--I don’t recall that he did.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was considering it in any case?

Mr. NEWNAM. I’m sure he was.

Mr. HUBERT. And whatever he said to you indicated that he was considering closing the club?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; but he didn’t tell me at the time, or we could have gone ahead and made the changes then.

Mr. HUBERT. But the changes were in fact not made by you?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of what period of time which elapsed between 12:40, when you first came in, and the telephone conversation by Ruby with his sister?

Mr. NEWNAM. It would be be just a guess--15 minutes--20 minutes--perhaps.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you put it the other way--how long before he left was this call between Ruby and his sister?

Mr. NEWNAM. I would approximate that this call must have been made around 1 o’clock. Now, to nail it down exactly how I approximate that--I’m just not real sure.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s no record kept of a call of that sort, is there?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; it was after--of course, it was after the 12 noon deadline, which our deadline is for either getting ads in the paper or taking them out. This is normal procedure, however, since what happened--naturally we disregarded deadlines and were trying to take care of the needs of those advertisers--whatever they would like to do.

Mr. HUBERT. In your judgment, it was about 15 or 20 minutes after you came in, which was at 12:40?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the time of the phone call?

Mr. NEWNAM. I would guess so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who placed the Weissman ad or did you have any dealings with the placement of the Weissman ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. I had no dealings at all with the placement of the ad, nor do I know the gentleman who placed it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that is all. Let me ask you this--we have had a few words of conversation prior to the beginning of this deposition, principally in connection with your drawing of this map or chart, Exhibit No. 4. Has there been any conversation between us that has not been substantially covered in the deposition since it began?

Mr. NEWNAM. There was one thing which might be pertinent which I think--the question has been brought up about being able to see the Texas School Book Depository from my desk.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that was not part of the conversation here this morning.

Mr. NEWNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Since you have brought it up, I would like to have your comments on that point?

Mr. NEWNAM. And the Building--that portion of the Building cannot be seen from my desk as such.

Mr. HUBERT. Can it be seen from Mr. Jeffery’s office?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; it can be seen from Mr. Jeffery’s desk and Mr. Saunders’ desk.

Mr. HUBERT. Or any place near the intersection of Young and Houston Streets, I take it?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well, outside of course you can see it. All of the desks--the reason you can’t see it from my desk would be this post right here.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s how far away?

Mr. NEWNAM. The Building?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; how far from the second floor to the Texas Depository Building by way of line of sight?

Mr. NEWNAM. Of course, my line of sight estimate would be--I’d have to go by blocks. There’s the Plaza, and then there’s the block the hotel is in, and the courthouse--two courthouses--5 blocks.

Mr. HUBERT. About 5 blocks?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other comment you wish to make?

Mr. NEWNAM. I don’t believe so, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. You’ve been most cooperative and helpful. This is something we didn’t have at all.

Mr. NEWNAM. Thank you. I hope that takes care of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I hope so, and that is all.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. NORTON

The testimony of Robert L. Norton was taken at 11:05 a.m., on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Robert L. Norton.

Mr. Norton, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 28, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Norton, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and associates and so forth. I think you appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to come here; isn’t that correct?

Mr. NORTON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that letter?

Mr. NORTON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us when you received it?

Mr. NORTON. Let’s see--it must have been Wednesday, I believe. I’m not for sure. It was this week--right in the middle of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. The rules of the Commission provide that every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but those rules also provide that you may waive that requirement. I ask you now that in the event you have not been given the full 3-days’ notice, are you willing to waive that right in order to testify now?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you stand and raise your right hand?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. State your name for the record, please?

Mr. NORTON. Robert L. Norton.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence address, Mr. Norton?

Mr. NORTON. 3414 Manana [spelling] M-a-n-a-n-a.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?

Mr. NORTON. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. NORTON. I’m in the entertainment business.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that business?

Mr. NORTON. About 7 years now.

Mr. HUBERT. What business did you have prior to that time?

Mr. NORTON. I was a salesman for Colgate-Palmolive Co.

Mr. HUBERT. What aspect of the entertainment business have you been in?

Mr. NORTON. I have been primarily in, for the last 7 years, a private club business, which is a rather new business here in Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had one or more clubs?

Mr. NORTON. Well, I have one and I’m associated with two others.

Mr. HUBERT. What others have you had, say, in the last 7 years? I think you are the entire owner or associated in the ownership of the Pago Club?

Mr. NORTON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You are the entire owner?

Mr. NORTON. Well, actually, I own the equipment and fixtures and due to our State liquor laws, it has been--it has to be leased to the club, and the club actually is owned by its members.

Mr. HUBERT. You are the operating manager?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; I am the operating manager.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s located at 4611 Cole Street, I believe?

Mr. NORTON. No; that’s my office, sir. The Pago Club is located at 2822 McKinney.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with the Pago Club?

Mr. NORTON. Oh, that’s been about 5 years since it was started.

Mr. HUBERT. Back last November, that is to say, November 1963, you had the same connection with the Pago Club as you have now and have had?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other clubs then?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which ones?

Mr. NORTON. I was associated with the Red Garter Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else is associated with you in the operation of the Red Garter Club?

Mr. NORTON. Mr. Charley Kiser operates the Red Garter.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that [spelling] K-a-i-s-e-r?

Mr. NORTON (spelling). No; K-i-s-e-r is the way he spells it.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. NORTON. That’s 3412 Kings Road.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a similar operation?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s a similar operation to the Pago Club?

Mr. NORTON. It’s similar but a different motif.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have a financial interest in it?

Mr. NORTON. I own the fixtures.

Mr. HUBERT. He operates the club?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m not interested in your portion or what you get out of it, but you do have some financial benefit from it?

Mr. NORTON. Yes: I do have.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other clubs at that time?

Mr. NORTON. At that time--the Keynote Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. NORTON. It’s on Cole--4527.

Mr. HUBERT (spelling). C-o-l-e?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And who manages that?

Mr. NORTON. Louis Byrum.

Mr. HUBERT (spelling). B-y-r-u-m?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any others?

Mr. NORTON. No; since then I am associated with a new one that’s just been opened, and this was just 2 weeks ago.

Mr. HUBERT. This address at 4611 Cole which you say is your office, is that a residence?

Mr. NORTON. No; that’s a building. That’s an office building.

Mr. HUBERT. You have your own offices there rather than in your club, is that correct?

Mr. NORTON. Right; well, it’s a joint office where all of us meet and have room to do our necessary bookwork.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know Jack Ruby, of course, don’t you?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; I have known him.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. NORTON. Well, I’ve known him ever since I have been in the business. My first location was on Lemmon and he had this Vegas Club down on Oaklawn.

Mr. HUBERT. They were close together?

Mr. NORTON. Well, it’s about a mile, I guess, 2 miles at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. In a sense you were competitors, I suppose?

Mr. NORTON. Well, in a sense, although he ran a different type of business than I did. He had a dance place there on Oak Lawn and my place was--his was open to the public and mine was closed to membership.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a member of your club?

Mr. NORTON. No; I had shown him the courtesy as an operator when he would drop in, such as we do, you know, to be a guest.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s mutual, I suppose, it’s reciprocal?

Mr. NORTON. It’s done--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to show you a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Joe Abernathy, dated November 26, 1963, which I have marked for identification on the right-hand margin as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 in the deposition of Robert Norton,” and I have signed my name below it. It consists of about a third of one page. I would like you to read that and tell me afterwards whether or not you recollect the interview and whether that’s a fair report of that interview.

Mr. NORTON (read instrument referred to). This is what I said and I also called Tuesday and reported to the FBI the fact that I had seen him at 12 o’clock and I asked him if they wanted me to come down and the man on the phone said I could just give him a statement over the phone. This was right after the President was buried.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this report----

Mr. NORTON. This is the second report that I made. I phoned in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you ever have a person-to-person interview?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; this gentleman here was in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Tuesday, November 26, and you had telephoned the information to the FBI previous to that?

Mr. NORTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And then did they come out on the same day and interview you?

Mr. NORTON. No; it was later. I wasn’t personally interviewed until later. I don’t remember just how long but it was sometime after I phoned in.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did phone in on Tuesday?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you phone in?

Mr. NORTON. Well, I just thought I should.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you thought that you had some information about his movements?

Mr. NORTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that therefore you should report it and you did do so?

Mr. NORTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know Ruby?

Mr. NORTON. Not well at all. I knew him strictly in a business manner and association. Occasionally, like I say, he would drop over to the place. We had a club association started in Dallas and I was president of that and I knew a number of different club operators and knew him through this means. I on occasion have been in his place, but I didn’t frequent it. It wasn’t that I disapproved but I just didn’t care for his operation, which I never had any reason to go there other than just to visit once in a while to say “Hello”.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve known him, you say, about 8 or 10 years?

Mr. NORTON. No; I’ve known him about 5. I was in the business about 2 years before I ever met him.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no social relationship between you?

Mr. NORTON. None whatsoever. I have some friends who went to his club.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t visit with him in his home?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you saw him three or four times a year or more or less?

Mr. NORTON. Possibly after I met him--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it would be either at his club or he dropped in at your club?

Mr. NORTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Or one of the meetings of the association?

Mr. NORTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you say in this statement which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1 that Ruby came in about midnight on the 23d. Now, was that Saturday?

Mr. NORTON. It was a Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it about midnight?

Mr. NORTON. It was about midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. NORTON. How do I fix the time?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. NORTON. I was talking with some other members of the club and I was on the other side of the room and my band had just taken their last break, their last 15-minute break, and that’s the only reason I was able really to fix the time. You see, we’re open until 1 o’clock on Saturday. They have 15-minute breaks.

Mr. HUBERT. That was from 12 to 12:15?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they observe that fairly carefully?

Mr. NORTON. Oh, yes; very definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean; would you say the break would always occur at that time?

Mr. NORTON. Well, it could vary 5 minutes either way but not much more than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Not much more than that, you say?

Mr. NORTON. No; my customers are in a habit of knowing that they have a 15-minute break on the hour and then back for an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s customary throughout the industry?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. They play for an hour?

Mr. NORTON. Forty-five minutes on and 15 minutes off.

Mr. HUBERT. And this was on the last break?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he came in right after the break?

Mr. NORTON. Well, I don’t know exactly when. I walked by his table and didn’t even know he was in the house. Like I do--I always try to notice who’s in my place and I looked backward as I walked by and there he was, just sitting there by himself.

Mr. HUBERT. The band had just broken up for its break so that you fix it at 12 o’clock?

Mr. NORTON. That’s about--it’s in that vicinity.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible he could have been in there for a considerable time prior to that?

Mr. NORTON. No; I don’t think so. I can’t say for sure. My manager was at the door and saw him and greeted him when he came in.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. NORTON. Anice Byrum.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you gave the full name awhile ago?

Mr. NORTON. Well, that was her husband’s name. She is manager of my club and he has this other place.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her name?

Mr. NORTON. Anice Byrum.

Mr. HUBERT. And she’s the wife of whom?

Mr. NORTON. She’s the wife of the manager of the Keynote.

Mr. HUBERT. And his name is Louis?

Mr. NORTON. His name is Louis Byrum.

Mr. HUBERT. And where do they live?

Mr. NORTON. They live on Singing Hills Street in Oak Cliff.

Mr. HUBERT. She saw him come in?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Has she ever spoken to you about what time it was?

Mr. NORTON. No--of course, with the shock of it all Sunday and we discussed it the first part of the week in the office, and all I remember her saying was he hadn’t been there any time at all, because I didn’t see him come in, and I asked her, I said, “How long had he been in there?”

Mr. HUBERT. What did she say?

Mr. NORTON. She said it hadn’t been long. He had had time to finish a Coca-Cola because when I saw him and said “Hello” and turned around and sat down, he had just finished a coke and I was having a drink and I ordered him one, another coke, and he drank another coke and he drank that and he left.

Mr. HUBERT. So, from the time you saw him until the time he left, how much time passed?

Mr. NORTON. I’d say 15 or 20 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were sitting at the table with him at that time?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I would assume that the orchestra began to play then before he left?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the general nature of the conversation?

Mr. NORTON. Well, like I say--when I walked by, I hadn’t seen him in a good while.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had it been since you had seen him?

Mr. NORTON. He was in the club one afternoon about, I’d say 4 to 6 weeks prior to that, with a man from Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. They were just in for a drink?

Mr. NORTON. Well, the man was. I never saw Jack take a drink.

Mr. HUBERT. They weren’t there on business, were they?

Mr. NORTON. No. You see, often times people in this business, that’s the way I always do, they just drop by and say “Hello” and see what the other person is doing in the way of business. That’s the only way I took it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who this man was from Fort Worth?

Mr. NORTON. No; but that conversation--they were discussing a business card idea, and it was some kind of plastic business, because he had a transparent business card with him.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know the man was from Fort Worth?

Mr. NORTON. They said he was from Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he introduced you but you don’t remember his name?

Mr. NORTON. I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that he was from Fort Worth?

Mr. NORTON. That’s as I understand it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, coming back to the 23d, which really went over into the 24th, didn’t it, because midnight came right at that point, you had a conversation of about 15 or 20 minutes with him seated at the table?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you talk about generally, do you know?

Mr. NORTON. Well, when I saw him sitting there, I just said, “Hello, Jack, I didn’t know you were in the house”. I remember naturally just thinking about it, after what he did, and so I sat down a minute with him and I asked him what he had been doing, and I don’t remember whether I said, which it says in this, that I said--that I asked him if he was closed. I don’t think I asked him that because we discussed it later, just before he left, because I made the comment that I don’t know whether I should open or not, and when I made that statement, that’s when he told me he was closed, and I know that’s the way it was.

In other words, we simply discussed--there was no discussion--this association had just been finalized. We closed it down because we couldn’t get the people to be here for the meetings and I discussed that with him, what was done at a final meeting, but I wasn’t at the final meeting and there was a few dollars involved that were distributed among the members to eliminate it, that there had been accumulated, you know, a collection of dues, and then he talked to me about how fortunate I was to have the business that I had, and he thought I ran a nice club--a nice place, and it was just like I told the officer on the phone and also the man who interviewed me--I’m the one that made mention of the assassination, just before he left. He didn’t say a word to me about it, and even when I said it, he just didn’t have much to say. He didn’t express his opinion like I did mine, and he said he was tired and he was going home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate at anytime where he had been?

Mr. NORTON. No, and I didn’t ask him. I mean--there wasn’t any reason to.

Mr. HUBERT. No, I understand that, but I thought he might have dropped some word that would indicate where he had been?

Mr. NORTON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate where he was going when he left?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; he said he was tired and he was going home.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was about 12:15 or 12:20?

Mr. NORTON. Somewhere around there.

Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?

Mr. NORTON. He was by himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him drive off or did he just get up and walk out of the club?

Mr. NORTON. No; when he left, I just continued to talk to my customers.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you said that there was very little conversation about the assassination altogether, and what little there was came from you?

Mr. NORTON. I mentioned it; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He made no comment about the assassination at all?

Mr. NORTON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate any disapproval of the fact that your club was open?

Mr. NORTON. No, and he just didn’t--like I say--I didn’t know until after I had discussed the fact that--I didn’t know whether it was proper or improper to open but everybody had been so shocked, you know, that I went ahead and opened, but I mentioned that I was certainly going to close Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated to you that he was closed?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; he had been closed since it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t really ask him, so that this report is incorrect when it says that you asked him. He told you after you expressed your concern that his clubs were closed?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When he came in or at anytime during the conversation did he ask you for anyone or inquire about anyone?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did he ask you about a Breck Wall?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Breck Wall?

Mr. NORTON. I know the name but I don’t know--I can’t place it--I say I know the name, I’ve heard the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you or make any inquiry about a man named George Senator?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you or make any inquiry about a man named Joe Peterson?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of those persons--Breck Wall, George Senator or Joe Peterson frequent the Pago Club?

Mr. NORTON. To my knowledge; no, but I do--for some reason recognize the name “Breck Wall” and I’ve heard of the name “Joe Peterson”.

Mr. HUBERT. It may help you if I tell you that they were entertainers at the Adolphus Hotel during this period, possibly that’s the reason?

Mr. NORTON. It could be, but there are an awful lot of names that come through my place of business and those names--it could be that I remember them from that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make any comment on what effect the assassination of President Kennedy might have on business generally in Dallas and particularly the nightclub business?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I say, and I repeat it for the sake of emphasis, he mentioned or he said nothing about the assassination at all?

Mr. NORTON. To the best of my memory--that’s the part--that’s what I discussed with people that I know about it. I said, “He didn’t even voice any contempt,” which I did for what had been done.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t concur in your view or express any concurrence?

Mr. NORTON. I can’t remember anything he answered back because I was the one--I don’t mind saying--I think at first I said, “It was terrible and I think it was an insult to our country” and then to the man--“it was terrible for the man himself,” and that’s the statement I made, that “we couldn’t do enough to the person that had done this sort of thing.” I made that statement and he didn’t say a word back that even indicated he was--to me he didn’t. I guess I made a more violent statement than anything that was said because I really felt that way.

Mr. HUBERT. And your statement was to the effect that nothing would be too bad for that person--something along those lines?

Mr. NORTON. Well, I meant by that--I just meant the extremes of the law. I said, “Nobody has the right to take the life of another one” and I meant it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any suggestion in what you said that somebody ought to shoot Oswald?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any indication whatsoever as to why Ruby came by?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he ever done that before at night?

Mr. NORTON. Not at that time; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that he didn’t mention to you the Earl Warren poster?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t discuss Oswald at all?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t discuss whether there were any groups behind Oswald or conspiracy or anything of that sort?

Mr. NORTON. Not one word. That surprised me because I’ve seen on a couple occasions Jack get very exasperated with his help, you know, down at his place, but he was more calm than I was about it. That is--in the conversation I had with him--he was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, is there anything else you want to comment upon?

Mr. NORTON. Nothing that I know of other than this is what I explained to the officer in my club. I said, “Actually, I guess there’s very little I can do in helping, but I feel like you ought to know he was there,” which I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Just so the record may be complete on it, we have had no conversations, have we, since I first met you a few moments ago other than what has been recorded in this room?

Mr. NORTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed.

Mr. NORTON. All right.

(At this time the witness, Norton, left the deposing room and shortly thereafter returned to such room and the proceedings continued as follows:)

Mr. HUBERT. This is Robert Norton and your deposition was finished a few moments ago and you had left the room and actually had proceeded downstairs, but you thought of something that you thought you should tell us and so you have come back up again, and now you want to state something more.

You understand, of course, that this second proceeding here is being conducted under the same terms and conditions as the first?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you are under the same oath that you were on the first?

Mr. NORTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us, please, what it is that you’ve thought about that you want to add?

Mr. NORTON. Well, I started to leave and I remembered that--well, I thought about it up here because we were discussing what was said in my place of business, but my manager and I in the office 2 or 3 days after it happened--I don’t remember exactly--discussed the fact that Jack Ruby’s sister was just out of the hospital and all of this happening and everything, we sent to her a sympathy card.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a sympathy card concerning her illness or concerning Jack’s trouble, or what?

Mr. NORTON. It was, as I remember it, it was just a general card. I didn’t purchase the card. My manager did.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a printed card?

Mr. NORTON. Yes; it was a printed card.

Mr. HUBERT. That was sent about how many days after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. NORTON. I would say 2 or 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. And then did you have anything else you wished to say?

Mr. NORTON. And then 2 or 3 days later I received a letter or a note--it was in a letter form, and it was addressed to Anice and Bob, that’s my manager’s name, and she opened it and it was from Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. From the jail?

Mr. NORTON. From the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. What did it say?

Mr. NORTON. Simply---“thank you for your”--something like “your concern”--I guess she took it to him. It wasn’t sent to him, we didn’t send it to him, but I surmised that she just told him about it or something and he sent this little note back and wished us luck.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have that note?

Mr. NORTON. Yes--I started to throw it away and Anice told me to keep it.

Mr. HUBERT. I would suggest that you hold it a bit. It may well be that the Commission or the Federal Bureau of Investigation will want to look at it, so I would not destroy it if I were you.

I’m glad you came back and told us about this.

Mr. NORTON. Well, I just don’t want to be connected with this in any way other than I’m here to help and that’s the reason I wanted to come back up here and tell about that, because I hadn’t mentioned.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s right. You didn’t want to be put in the position of having come here and omitted to say something that does bear upon your relationship with Jack Ruby, but which you had not said before?

Mr. NORTON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think that’s fine. Thank you, sir.

Mr. NORTON. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ROY A. PRYOR

The testimony of Roy A. Pryor was taken at 7:50 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Roy A. Pryor.

Mr. Pryor, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Pryor, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.

I think you appeared here tonight by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President’s Commission, asking you to come here, and I think that letter is dated the 22d of June, is it not? When did you receive it?

Mr. PRYOR. Day before yesterday, which would be the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness may waive that notice if he sees fit to do so, and in the event it should turn out that you have not had the 3-day notice, are you willing to waive it and let your deposition be taken now?

Mr. PRYOR. That’s perfectly all right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You are willing to have your deposition taken?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name?

Mr. PRYOR. Roy Auburn Pryor [spelling] A-u-b-u-r-n.

Mr. HUBERT. Your age?

Mr. PRYOR. I’m 41.

Mr. HUBERT. Your address?

Mr. PRYOR. 8544 Foxwood Lane. The address on the letter was to 2716 Mohave Drive, and since then I have moved.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state that address again, please?

Mr. PRYOR. 8544 Foxwood Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Pryor?

Mr. PRYOR. I work as a printer in the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. PRYOR. Approximately 3½ years.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to your association with the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. PRYOR. It has been varied. I mean--I have done radio and television promotional advertising and have owned a small printshop of my own. I have worked as a salesman from selling Kirby vacuum cleaners to--and I have then worked as an emcee and a musician, and in comedy.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known Jack Ruby?

Mr. PRYOR. Since about 1950, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with his operation of nightclubs?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time you were in the entertainment business?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you when you first came into the room a document consisting of two pages, which I mark for identification as follows, in the right-hand margin: “Dallas, Tex., June 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Roy Pryor” and I have signed my name under it, and on the second page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner. This document purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin on December 9, 1963.

Now, have you read this document which I have marked as Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you find that it correctly states your recollection of the interview that was had of you by Agents Wilkinson and Hardin?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And there are no errors in it, I take it?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir--I mean, the exact dates may vary to some degree. I don’t recall exactly the basis of the entire thing is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it has been customary for Mr. Ruby to come up to the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald frequently to consult in regard to his ads?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that he’s one of the few customers who does do so?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir. Jack--when I knew him--now, his condition evidently has changed considerably due to the information that I get from the newspapers, has always been an impulsive sort of a person and it was the idea of being able to present his ad personally, and he liked to associate with people. So, consequently I feel that that was possibly the reason that he would come up to the composing room, and he is one of the very few that I can name that has ever come up there, but he was fairly consistent in his coming to the composing room. Now, what he talked about--he would carry on his conversation with the foreman or the person in charge at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say he came down there once a week or more often or less often?

Mr. PRYOR. Now, I didn’t see him that often, but I am under the impression that he was there possibly two or three times a week--I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What shift do you work at the newspaper there?

Mr. PRYOR. In the evening, sir, from 7:30 until 3. At the time, though----

Mr. HUBERT. At what time--you mean in November 1963?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; in November of 1963, the shift, the evening shift started at 6:30 and got off at 2.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there one shift that began or some employees who began work at midnight and worked until 7:30?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on that shift?

Mr. PRYOR. Art Watherwax, now, he is the lobster--that is the name of the shift--the lobster shift is the midnight shift, and ours, or the one that I worked and still do is the evening shift, and like I say, at that time the shift started at 6:30 and ended at 2 for a normal 7-hour shift. Now, it’s from 7:30 until 3. As in the statement, though, to the FBI, I had worked overtime that particular evening.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s get to that. I think you state in your statement to the FBI, Exhibit No. 1, that you saw Ruby in the composing room of the Times Herald on the morning of the 23d at about 4 o’clock?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that would have been Saturday morning?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The day after President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what was the last occasion prior to this time on the 23d that you saw Ruby?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes; now--once again--I can’t recall the exact date. It was either a Tuesday or a Wednesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Of that week?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes; of the week before.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the same week?

Mr. PRYOR. Of the week that President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was either 2 days before or 3 days?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I don’t recall now exactly. The place that I saw him, though, was in the reception room at radio station KLIF, and at that time I was doing some promotional advertising for the station.

Mr. HUBERT. What time of the day or night was it?

Mr. PRYOR. As best I can remember, it was about 2 o’clock in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you see him with?

Mr. PRYOR. A little fellow--now, he introduced me, but I forgot his name, but it wasn’t Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know Oswald, of course, did you?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you say it wasn’t Oswald, you mean that you are identifying him and are making that statement from pictures of him you have seen?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was someone connected with the station, is that it?

Mr. PRYOR. No; I don’t know what connection there was between him and Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. He was with Ruby?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he introduce you to the man?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the name “Larry” ring a bell with you?

Mr. PRYOR. I couldn’t tell you, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Lavern Crafard?

Mr. PRYOR. No; I can vaguely identify him--it seemed like he had brown wavy hair, and he was shorter than I am and he would be about 5′7″, I’d say.

Mr. HUBERT. And what age about?

Mr. PRYOR. In his early thirties I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. PRYOR. To the best of my recollection he was in a business suit.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that they were together?

Mr. PRYOR. Jack introduced me and we talked in the lobby of radio station KLIF and then we walked down and stood in front of the station.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean--outside?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On the street?

Mr. PRYOR. Or on the sidewalk, and Lorie--he’s the station manager for KLIF--Al Lorie.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. PRYOR. Al [spelling] L-o-r-i-e, I believe it is. I had been in talking with Al and Jack Ruby was sitting in the copyreader’s office--I know those guys but I can’t recall their names--he was in the office of the man that takes care of the copy.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he finished his business at the time you met him?

Mr. PRYOR. When I walked in to see Mr. Lorie, the door was open into Bob’s office and Jack was sitting there and I just waved at him and went on in to see Al, and so when I came out Jack was sitting there.

Mr. HUBERT. He was still sitting at the same place?

Mr. PRYOR. No; he came out.

Mr. HUBERT. So, apparently while you were conducting your business, he was conducting his?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you both left together?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he saw then? There?

Mr. PRYOR. The copywriter he was talking to--his name is Bob Clayton.

Mr. HUBERT. Bob Clayton?

Mr. PRYOR. Right; I should have remembered it, but I’m one of the worst on names.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left him on the street?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the next time you saw him was on the morning of the 23d?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, normally your shift would have been over at 2 o’clock?

Mr. PRYOR. At 2 o’clock; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You state in your interview with the FBI, Exhibit No. 1, that you saw him at about 4 o’clock?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you fix that time?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, I had 2 hours overtime, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that you worked 2 hours overtime that day?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were about to leave?

Mr. PRYOR. I had already signed my work ticket and was preparing to leave the place.

Mr. HUBERT. So it is that fact which enables you to fix the time that you saw Ruby at 4 o’clock?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he just coming in then?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was precisely 2 hours after your regular time had finished?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So there can be no doubt about it being 4 o’clock?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?

Mr. PRYOR. That--I don’t know, sir, because I left after talking with him for approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to you first or who else did he speak to?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes; I was the only one, I presume, that he knew that was at the chapel board, which is in the front of the chapel board, and he just stopped me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about business?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir--just--he was excited and just his usual self. I mean, whenever something out of the ordinary happened, he would become excitable.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you noticed that through the years that you have known him?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us some of the physical manifestations which indicated to you that he was excited?

Mr. PRYOR. One is that he had a newspaper with him, a Times Herald paper. It was the evening of Friday--the paper, and stated that he had gotten the scoop on his competitors. There were two things that he brought out, and the primary thing, I believe, that he stressed, was the fact that in memorium to President Kennedy, that he had had them change his ad real quick; that his two clubs, the Carousel Club down on Commerce Street and the Vegas Club, which was out on Maple or Oaklawn, he had closed those two for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had gotten that announcement into the Friday edition of the Times Herald, whereas, his competitors had not done so?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that they were running ads as it were announcing their shows?

Mr. PRYOR. Their shows; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And his announcement announced the closing because of the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak of any other thing then?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I mean--like I say--the fact that it was in memorium, a memorial to President Kennedy, was primary, but secondary then was the fact that he had scooped his competitors, and that was the word that he used “scooped.”

Mr. HUBERT. In the sense that he had taken this action and gotten his ad before anybody else had done so?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; he felt that that was something that everybody should have done.

Mr. HUBERT. He seemed to take some personal gratification in it?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention having seen Oswald that night, in the course of that night?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about that?

Mr. PRYOR. How he was allowed into the pressroom, we didn’t go into, but that he by knowing the newspapermen and the officers, police officers, he was allowed to go in where the lineup was. I presume that’s where it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that to you?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he said to you that it was because of his acquaintance and association with the police officers and the news people that he did get into this room?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was rather swept along and forced into this room or that he got there because he wanted to be there and used his associations as a means of getting there?

Mr. PRYOR. It reverts back, I believe, to the fact that Jack was real impulsive and he happened to be there and they happened to be going in and that seemed like the thing to do. I mean--knowing Jack, if there was any kind of excitement or activity and he had a tendency to big shot.

Mr. HUBERT. To play up to big shots, you mean?

Mr. PRYOR. Well--to----

Mr. HUBERT. To pretend to be a big shot or to try to be a big shot?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why he was in the police station at all?

Mr. PRYOR. It seems like that he had bought some sandwiches and coffee for the officers; I believe that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that what he told you?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; that he had bought some sandwiches and coffee, and now, who they went to, I don’t know, but that was what he said.

Mr. HUBERT. This you know from your own knowledge--from him?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t read this in the paper?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say concerning Oswald?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, that he was allowed to enter the room where Oswald was and that he did get close enough to touch him, and the one thing that I didn’t think of it at the time--but due to the chain of events that took place, the one thing that he said, was, “He’s a little weasel of a guy.” I mean--that’s his exact words that Jack used.

Mr. HUBERT. When he said that, did he have any particular type of expression or emotion?

Mr. PRYOR. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, did his voice carry some suggestion of hatred or revulsion?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; to that degree, although I don’t for the life of me believe that Jack had any premeditation of murdering Oswald. I mean--you have to----

Mr. HUBERT. You’re talking about the time that you are speaking of, that is to say, on the morning of November 23?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had made any comment himself in the course of that meeting?

Mr. PRYOR. Only later on--he had mentioned to the District Attorney Henry Wade, who was talking on the telephone to someone, and Mr. Wade had made a statement that Oswald was associated with a Cuban organization and that the organization that he had mentioned was anti-Castro and Jack corrected him and told him it was the organization that was pro-Castro.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack told that to you?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; and that Mr. Wade seemed to be appreciative of that fact, and that he said--Jack’s words were, “You see, I’m in good with the district attorney” or something to that effect. I mean, he was trying to impress me with the fact that he was acquainted with Henry Wade.

Mr. HUBERT. And that he had been able to correct him?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I mean--to know Jack is to realize why he would say things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently, in correcting Mr. Wade, he pointed out to Mr. Wade that Oswald’s committee or group or something was not anti-Castro but pro-Castro, is that so?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I believe that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way how he knew what Oswald’s political feelings with respect to the Cuban problem were?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, I think that he had gathered that through the news media, either newspaper, television, radio or--not that he was associated or connected in any way, but I do feel that that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m trying to get at is this: That Ruby apparently in correcting Mr. Wade, associated Oswald with the pro-Castro group rather than with the anti-Castro group, as Mr. Wade had apparently mistakenly done?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it merely that he was correcting the terminology of Mr. Wade or did you gather that he himself had some knowledge of Oswald’s political feelings?

Mr. PRYOR. No; my own personal opinion is that Jack was correcting Mr. Wade through what he had read or heard.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Mr. Wade had used the wrong label for the organization that Wade was talking about and that Jack corrected him and said that that organization is called another thing?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; and that was as far as I could determine, that’s the only thing that Jack meant, which was common knowledge then through the news media.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that he said to you on that night or at anytime for that matter, that indicated that he knew of Oswald’s political feelings and thoughts?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; outside of possibly what he had learned through the police or through other news media, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from his remark that it was Ruby’s opinion that Oswald was a pro-Castro individual rather than either a neutral or an anti-Castro individual?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, just from the comment that he had made in relation to the correction of Mr. Wade, that would be the only time.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that Mr. Wade had simply used the wrong label for the pro-Castro group?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was simply correcting him as to labels, is that correct?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any telephone calls made that night between Ruby and the composing room or you, that you know of?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Your only contact with him was in the 15 minutes you have talked about?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You and he were alone at that time during that 15 minutes?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; there were other people in the chapel, which is at the front of the composing room where you sign your ticket and you sign out.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people?

Mr. PRYOR. Let me see--I think there was a fellow by the name of Griffin. I believe he was the one that walked out with me, and he’ll shoot me for this, but he had walked up--we had washed up in the back and had come up and I had made out my ticket and picked up my lunch bucket and was ready to leave when Jack came in off of the elevator and Mr. Griffin and I stopped and so then he went on down, and I couldn’t recall whether he even spoke to Jack. Possibly he didn’t even know Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you introduce him?

Mr. PRYOR. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. What is Mr. Griffin’s name--first name?

Mr. PRYOR. I don’t know--just Griffin is all I know him by.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work there?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you say he’ll hate you for this?

Mr. PRYOR. Because you’ll probably contact him and it’s----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you tell us that he did not speak to Ruby at all, is that correct?

Mr. PRYOR. That--I couldn’t tell you, sir. The man to my knowledge doesn’t know Jack or didn’t know Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, as you met Jack with this man Griffin, you stayed behind and talked to Jack for about 15 minutes and Griffin went on?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Griffin wait for you downstairs?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; he went on.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the contact between Ruby and Griffin must have been a matter of seconds, is that correct?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir--if there was--which I don’t recall at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any indication that they knew each other?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the famous Weissman ad that appeared in the Dallas Morning News the day the President came to town--a full page ad?

Mr. PRYOR. I’m familiar with the ad, but I couldn’t tell you any of the contents, because we had it up on our bulletin board.

Mr. HUBERT. What I want to ask you simply is this: Whether or not Jack Ruby mentioned to you anything concerning that ad during the 15 minutes you spoke to him about 4 o’clock on November 23?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention the Birch Society?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with what the Birch Society is?

Mr. PRYOR. I’ve heard the name. I couldn’t tell you one thing about their organization.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak with Jack Ruby about it nor he with you?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby seem to link Oswald with any group such as the Weissman ad or the John Birch Society?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir--I mean--to my recollection there was never any mention of those.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had been to station KLIF and brought sandwiches there too?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that evening.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had secured a telephonic interview of Henry Wade for Glenn Duncan of station KLIF?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general attitude towards the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. PRYOR. He was real concerned. Now, this--I remember--he was very much concerned with the fact that, I believe his words were, “Poor Mrs. Kennedy--Jackie and the kids”--the fact that they had lost a husband and father and it was definitely--he was emotional about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon what effect or did you have any conversation with him about what effect the assassination might have on business in general in Dallas and in particular, the convention business, upon which his own business depended so heavily?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem concerned about how this event might affect his livelihood?

Mr. PRYOR. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that he did seem concerned about the matter from the standpoint of President Kennedy’s wife and children, was there any other basis of concern that you could discern from his conversation with you?

Mr. PRYOR. No. I’m--I’m trying to think as to what all took place within the length of time that I talked with him, and he was basically, emotionally upset over the thing.

Mr. HUBERT. What physical manifestation did he give of being emotionally upset?

Mr. PRYOR. Shaking the newspaper--I guess is about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be angry or talk in a different way or look in a different way or act in any different way than normal?

Mr. PRYOR. Not with any great degree that I could tell.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be excessively sorrowful about this?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes--like I say--he did seem real concerned over the fact that the President had been killed, and I think all of us at that time, as well as now--it was--there was a sorrow, and Jack being the emotional type of person that he was, was possibly a little more demonstrative of it. In other words, he would demonstrate and express his emotions more than the average person, I feel.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought is then that his expression of sorrow and so forth and his reaction was somewhat more than the average, at least, as manifested?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment or associate in any way the question of the Jewish race or faith in the assassination?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way to you that he thought that because of the Weissman ad or for any other reason the people of the Jewish race and faith might be blamed for the assassination, directly or indirectly?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no conversation about Judaism or Jews at all?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when he took out the twistboard and demonstrated it?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have it with him when you saw him?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; I don’t believe he did. All he had was the newspaper.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when you left, he was still there?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t know how long he stayed?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you part with him, what was the general point of departure, how did you leave things with him?

Mr. PRYOR. “I’ve got to get home, and I’ll see you around, Jack” or something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him again thereafter?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; until the time that I testified at his trial, outside of seeing him on television.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any contact with him by telephone after then?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think at one time you and he had had a little fisticuffs, hadn’t you?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose any feelings about that had long since passed away?

Mr. PRYOR. About 5 minutes after we had our misunderstanding, it was all over. In fact, there was a grocery store down on the corner, and not that I am or have in the past ever been a fighter or anything, but we had had our set-to and I blacked his eye, and so then he went over there and there was a wash-stand in the back of the Spur there, and he was washing his face and I walked over to him and told him, I said, “Jack, I’m sorry I’m fighting in your place here and working for you like this, but don’t never call me a name like that because I just don’t appreciate it”, and so he turned around and pop! He hit me right in the eye, you see, and boy! The sparks just flew!

Mr. HUBERT. And you got to fighting again?

Mr. PRYOR. No; that was all, and so both of us had a big ole’ shiner, and of course, the guys in the band were up on the bandstand and were looking through the curtain. They heard the commotion and they were just rolling.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were friendly thereafter?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was some 13 or 14 years ago, was it?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes; he goes down and buys two great big steaks and both of us are walking around with these steaks on our eyes. I mean--that’s the type of person, though, that Jack was.

Mr. HUBERT. He bought a steak for his own eye that you had given him and one for your eye that he had given you?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes; and that is the emotional type of person that Jack--and there has been numerous instances where I have seen him get real excited over some incidental little thing and 2 minutes after whatever created the excitement, he was back running around.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us his attitude toward the girls in his club? Did he take any personal interest in them or was it strictly professional?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, now, on his personal life I couldn’t tell you. I mean--I never associated with him to that extent, but I do know that he treated all of the girls that worked for him, as far as I knew, with fairness and also went out of his way to help them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he allow them to make dates out of the club that you know of?

Mr. PRYOR. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he prohibit it?

Mr. PRYOR. Once again, I couldn’t say. That would come under his business.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m asking you because you actually worked there for a considerable period of time, and I wondered what you yourself observed about it?

Mr. PRYOR. I do know that the girls would go with fellows, but it seemed that they were their steadies and dates, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of any regulation or rule of the house, as it were, that no girl could date a man from the club?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; I wasn’t aware of that, if it did exist.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what his attitude toward the opposite sex was generally?

Mr. PRYOR. He was impressed with them--I’ll say that. Whether he was--well, I don’t know how to put it, but anyhow--he was engaged, I know, at one time, and I know at the time I started working for him he was engaged to a girl and why they didn’t get married, I don’t know, but he had gone with her.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever observe any traits which you might classify as homosexual in Jack Ruby?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; now, he was a peculiar duck, and he’s not the type of person that--well, I consider myself a normal individual to a degree, but he was a little rational----

Mr. HUBERT. He was a little “rational” or “irrational”? I didn’t catch the word?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, let’s see how do I want to put it? Would it be rational?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know. Apparently you have some doubt in your mind as to the meaning of the word, and perhaps you had better use another word. What did you have in mind? Perhaps you could use another word to describe it? You said he was a peculiar duck and I gather from that that he was a little different from other people?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, maybe it was because he was in that particular type of business that he acted a little different towards women than guys in the band, because musicians are notorious for their----

Mr. HUBERT. Interest in the girls at the club, is that what you mean?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir. I’m glad you phrased it that way.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was a little different from that?

Mr. PRYOR. Well, like I say now--due to the fact that he was closer associated with a number of girls that he acted that way or why it was--I couldn’t tell you, but when you mentioned--did he have any homosexual tendencies--he had never made any advances to me or to anyone that I knew of.

Mr. HUBERT. You never observed anything that would indicate any such thing as that at all?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you have not been an employee there for quite a number of years; isn’t that right?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How many exactly--about 8 or 10, I take it?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But your friendship with him had continued throughout the years?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; he had always treated me good. I mean--as far as a friend, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. I know, but I mean after you left his employ as a musician or an artist or entertainer, which I gather was around 1954 or something like that?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you continue to contact him, was it just social?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I had gone down to the Carousel Club.

Mr. HUBERT. As a customer?

Mr. PRYOR. As a guest, because as a customer, I would pay, but as a guest--whenever I came up, which was very rare, but at different times I had gone up to his club just to catch the floor show and to observe primarily the MC’s and listen to their routines. That was the type of work that I had done.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the 10 years after you stopped working for him, your connection and your contact with Ruby was on that sort of basis, irregular meetings now and then?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir; I believe it was in 1960 on Christmas Day, he came out to our house and he brought, I believe he had two dogs, dachshunds, that he was quite fond of, and he came out and ate Christmas dinner, although we had already finished dinner, he came out late, and my wife fixed him a plate and he had turkey and all the trimmings, and he stayed, oh, possibly 45 minutes and seemed to enjoy it, and his dogs--we had a lot of yard and his dogs got out and run and it just seemed to be relaxation for him, and we enjoyed having him, just as a friend like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you want to say, Mr. Pryor?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then let me ask you this by was of closing. Of course, neither you nor I met before I saw you tonight?

Mr. PRYOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And there was no conversation between us except to introduce ourselves. Otherwise, everything that has passed between us has been recorded by this lady as far as you know, is that correct?

Mr. PRYOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down and taking your evening hours with this.

Mr. PRYOR. Well, I don’t know whether I was any help to you or not, but I appreciate it. For the life of me, I couldn’t bring myself to believe that Jack could do something like that, and I still don’t believe that he had any premeditated thought about it, that is, a circumstance that allowed this thing to happen and it was just one of those things that’s stranger to me than any fiction writer could possibly write.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I am certainly glad you came down.

Mr. PRYOR. All right, fine.

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR WILLIAM WATHERWAX

The testimony of Arthur William Watherwax was taken at 6:55 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Arthur W. Watherwax.

Mr. Watherwax, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Watherwax, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and his movements when you saw him and so forth.

I think you appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but such rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he so wishes, and I think that letter addressed to you is dated June 22. When did you get it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. June 23.

Mr. HUBERT. Today is the 26th. Now, probably you have had the 3-day written notice, but in any case, if it should be short by 1 day, since the rules do provide that you can waive it, you said you are willing to waive that notice?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you stand and raise your right hand so I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Arthur William Watherwax.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. WATHERWAX. At 9302 Piper Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Forty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?

Mr. WATHERWAX. A printer.

Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. WATHERWAX. About 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you employed before that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. At the Horton Bros, in Dallas, as a printer.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve been in printing all your life, I take it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s my trade.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. About 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I guess--maybe several years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way did you come to know him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. His coming up to the composing room with his ads.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him in any other way?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him socially?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or as a friend?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are in the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that it’s customary for the customers who run ads to consult with you as to the format?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; he’s the only customer I have ever seen up there.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did come and it was his custom to come up?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. It was his custom to come and talk to you or others about the composition of his ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He usually talked to the foreman but he usually mingled with the men.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the foreman?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch was the foreman for that shift.

Mr. HUBERT. What shift are you talking about?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The 12 o’clock at night until 7:30 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he usually consulted with you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he usually came up there, after his club was closed usually around 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. He would consult with you about the ad which appeared in the evening edition?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the following day.

Mr. HUBERT. When did it go to press?

Mr. WATHERWAX. It would go to press about 9 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What’s the deadline?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I think it would be out on the streets about 11 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean what’s the deadline for changing the ad and so forth?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, I think some time at night, but he kept wandering in and his ad was so small.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to see him quite often?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Quite a bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having seen him on the morning after the President was shot, that is to say, on the early morning of November 23?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Saturday morning?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning; that is correct?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty as usual?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was your 12 to 7:30 shift?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him before on that day, that is to say, on the 23d?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him on the 22d at all?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time prior to that that you had seen him that you recall?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I don’t even recall, and I may have seen him and I may not have even taken note of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a distinct recollection of having seen him on the night or the morning after the President was shot?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; I remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he there for?

Mr. WATHERWAX. To change his ad. He changed it to “The Carousel Club will be closed for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday,” I think.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the ad had been placed or was it a continuously running ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; continuously--more or less.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come in person or did he telephone?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He came in person.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he telephone at all?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He frequently did, but he didn’t that day.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay with you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He was up there, I would say, at least 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Talking with you or with others?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, it was with myself and others.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the others?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor--he was an old friend of his, and the foreman, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the foreman’s name?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he still there?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that Ruby first came, do you remember?

Mr. WATHERWAX. It was about 5 minutes after 4.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s quite a time that you have named. Therefore, I would like you to state why you are able to fix it as closely as you do?

Mr. WATHERWAX. We eat lunch from 3:30 until 4, and right after lunch I usually go back to the restroom and wash my hands, and just as I was walking to the restroom, he came off of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. So you are able to pinpoint the time because it was at the very end of your lunch hour, which invariably, I take it, is from 3:30 to 4?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you fix it as shortly thereafter, or about 5 minutes after?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does the elevator come from?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The first floor--up.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s open to the public?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but there are a couple of nightwatchmen down there that check them in.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he stayed about 30 minutes, which would make it somewhere after 4:30 when he left. Did he stay and talk with you all that while or with others, including you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He started talking to me and I believe Roy Pryor came up and he talked to him also.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the primary purpose of his visit, as I understand, was to change his ad, and he told you how to do it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He discussed it with me, you know, he was always asking somebody’s opinion on something.

Mr. HUBERT. He discussed it with you as to the composition, you mean?

Mr. WATHERWAX. As to whether it would be timely.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean whether it would be a proper thing to do?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; appropriate--if I thought it would be a good idea.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was seeking your advice as well as others as to whether it was a good idea to close the club, aside from consulting you as to the composition of the ad, once that decision was made?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in some doubt as to whether he would close the club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He said he was going to try and get the other owners to join him and they would all close.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the decision, as I understand, was ultimately made to close?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And therefore the ad was changed?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the assassination of the President?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; he was pretty shaken up about it. I guess everybody Was.

Mr. HUBERT. But did he seem to be more shaken up than the average person?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I would say he was more excited about the interview that he had just left evidently. He had been up at the police station for an interview with Oswald and with Henry Wade.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you about that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression now that he was more excited about the fact that he had been present at this interview than he was about anything else?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving, particularly?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No. He thought it was a terrible thing. He mentioned that he had corrected Wade on, I think Henry Wade made a mistake about those two Cuban organizations and Ruby straightened him out. One was called “Freedom for Fair Play for Cuba”, and I forget the other one--what the name of it was.

Mr. HUBERT. He mentioned to you that Wade had made a mistake concerning those two organizations and that he had cleared it up?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when and where he had cleared it up?

Mr. WATHERWAX. At the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. At what interview?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Evidently he spoke up and told him that he was wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about the Weissman ad that had appeared in the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that, sir?

Mr. WATHERWAX. The best I recall, I think he said that it had been traced back to General Walker, and that it had been placed in there to make the Jews look bad.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his comment about the Weissman ad was that he knew or thought that it had been traced back to General Walker?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the purpose was to make the Jews look bad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he elaborate on his expression of how the Jews would be involved or made to look involved in the matter?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; except that he thought that that name Weissman was evidently Jewish, and that he thought it was a plan that would make the Jews look bad, that it would really reflect on the Jews.

Mr. HUBERT. From your general knowledge of him, was he sensitive to the fact that he was a Jew?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I had never noticed it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be on this particular occasion?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Just in reference to that ad--I was sort of surprised when he mentioned it, because I didn’t know that he felt like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem angry or mad or outraged about this ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just that he was concerned that the ad might associate the Jews with the ad?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that--he didn’t like?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say whether he didn’t like it because it would hurt his business, or did he say what was the reason why he didn’t like it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He didn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention the John Birch Society?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the John Birch Society is?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t say anything about that that night?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He never discussed politics as far as I know--I didn’t even know he was interested.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about Oswald himself?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he said he had seen Oswald up there at the interview and he said he looked like a little weasel--he had a smirk on his face.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything that indicated that he intended to take any action with respect to him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about a fear that the assassination of President Kennedy might somehow be blamed on the Jews in America or elsewhere?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The only reference he made to the Jews then, was in connection with the Weissman ad.

Mr. WATHERWAX (no response).

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way that he thought that Oswald might be involved with some other group?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t think he did. I think he was worried about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, primarily he was a businessman and he catered to tourists. That was his main source of income and I think everybody was sort of worried about business in Dallas after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your analysis of it or did he say anything that night to indicate that he was concerned about his business?

Mr. WATHERWAX. We discussed it--that. You see; I drive a cab part time. That’s one reason why he’s sort of cultivated my friendship because he was always after me to bring him customers, and we discussed how it would hurt Dallas for conventions more than anything else, because that was his main source of income and also for cabdrivers.

Mr. HUBERT. You drove a cab every day?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, no; maybe for a weekend or maybe 2 or 3 days a month.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive a cab on the same day you would go to work?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; it was always on my off days.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was at night?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; night.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you sometimes bring people to his club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but never by my own volition.

Mr. HUBERT. They asked you to do so?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn’t solicit for the club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, no; no.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did bring somebody there, did he compensate you in any way?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He offered to; if I would come upstairs, he would give me a half a dollar a person, but it wasn’t worthwhile.

Mr. HUBERT. You never did collect any half dollars on that, did you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that I gather from what you said that both of you discussed the possibilities that your cab business, such as it was, might be hurt if the tourists stayed away from Dallas and that his club business would be hurt?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he very definitely discussed that aspect of it with you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that seem to be of concern to him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was worried about it. Like I said, primarily he was a businessman. I have often thought that--they said that he mingled with police, he was a glad-hander but he was his own public-relations man and that was all part of the business with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to his club on a social basis?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; I took my wife up there once.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That was the only time--once.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you’ve known him about 7 or 8 years?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; just several years, I would say--maybe longer than that--4 or 5 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to the time he organized and opened the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him when he owned the Vegas Club alone?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It was only when he opened the Carousel?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. These ads that he ran were for both clubs or just one?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He ran two separate ads. Usually the Carousel was the main ad. The Vegas Club was just a little one--a continuous ad. I think his main interest was the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you went to his club, you mean the Carousel?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve never been to the Vegas?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When he left at approximately 4:30 or shortly thereafter, did he make any kind of parting comment of significance?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; he didn’t. After he talked to me he was demonstrating a twistboard that he had brought up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he demonstrating it to?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, to our proofreader who is a woman. He got her to try it. I think it was a reducing thing or an exercise thing.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s sort of a thing that you put on the floor and stand on and twist around on?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a rather humorous performance?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; everybody was laughing. You would twist, you would almost have to.

Mr. HUBERT. You said it was one of the female proofreaders who got on it, and was he laughing and joking about it as well?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he went off, and have you seen him since?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with him during the rest of the 23d or the 24th?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that Roy Pryor was there that night too?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever mention to you in the course of the years that you knew him--any friends that he had in the underworld--mobster group?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sort of a name dropper?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention people that he thought were important that he had met?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I never noticed it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything to you to indicate what his relationship with the police was?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your own knowledge what his relationship with the police was?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t--no. The only time that I ever had anything like that, was sitting in my cab in front of the University Club, waiting for a passenger that was upstairs and a couple of conventioners came along and offered me a drink and asked me where all the action was and everything, and it was already closing hours. It was after closing hours and to get rid of them I sent them down to the Carousel. I knew that he was open until 3 o’clock in the morning or 2 o’clock, and I didn’t know, but they were vice squad men, so Ruby got a big laugh out of it--here he says--“I ask you for customers here and you’re sending me down vice squad men.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, these people who appeared to be conventioners and drunks were in fact vice squad men and masquerading as such?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t drive them there but you just told them about it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Later you say Ruby laughed and joked with you about it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t angry about it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He apparently got into no trouble as a result of it?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I think they sort of considered him as a joke, I guess, more than anything else. I think everybody sort of--they didn’t pay him much attention.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, evidently he didn’t seem to have very much intelligence. He was just a pusher.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your impression of him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. I wouldn’t say--he wasn’t educated.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the relationship between you and Ruby was friendly?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you consider him to be an intelligent person?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Who--Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t think so. Of course, I only knew him casually.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anything about him which would throw light on his character in the sense of whether he had a hot temper or not?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, I have taken some of his strippers home in the cab, and the few that I had, said that he had a reputation of that.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; they said he would hire and fire and hire and fire, you know, so evidently he had a pretty quick temper.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you gathered from the strippers that you had occasion to have as fares?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. From the Carousel to their home?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They expressed that view to you or talking among themselves?

Mr. WATHERWAX. To me--I only had them as singles. I didn’t ride the group.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they indicate that he made any sexual advances toward them?

Mr. WATHERWAX. One of them told me that that was one of the reasons there was such a big turnover, that that was part of the job--that when they were hired, that was part of the job--almost understood to be part of the job.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that they would have to have sexual intercourse with him?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that’s what she said.

Mr. HUBERT. One woman told you that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; she said that if you didn’t, he would fire you.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who that was, do you?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. WATHERWAX. It’s been about a year and a half. I know I was sorta surprised because he never appeared to be that type to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be a normal type man sexually to you or did you ever notice any traits which you considered homosexual?

Mr. WATHERWAX. He just never talked about it.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t consider that he was homosexual?

Mr. WATHERWAX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s all, sir. Now, Mr. Watherwax, have you anything further you wish to add that might throw any light on this?

Mr. WATHERWAX. That’s about all I can say.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any conversation between us except that which has been recorded here, because if there is, we are supposed to develop it, but as a matter of fact, except for introducing myself as you walked into the room, all of our conversation has been recorded?

Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir, very much, and I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. WATHERWAX. You’re welcome.

TESTIMONY OF BILLY A. REA

The testimony of Billy A. Rea was taken at 12:20 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Billy A. Rea.

Mr. Rea, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Rea, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates, and his movements and whereabouts on November 22, particularly.

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have appeared here today, Mr. Rea, by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. REA. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, sir, do you have it?

Mr. REA. I believe it was Monday, June 22.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. REA. I received it yesterday. That came to my house Wednesday, however, no one was home.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me say this to you--under the rules adopted by the Commission, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that notice if he sees fit to do so, and I ask you if you are willing to testify now and waive the notice?

Mr. REA. Yes, I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you rise and let me administer the oath, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so, help you God?

Mr. REA. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. REA. Billy A. Rea--Billy Andrew Rea.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. REA. In Lancaster, Tex., 157 Arbor Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. How far is that from Dallas?

Mr. REA. Well, the city limits are adjacent--I live about 14 miles from downtown Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. REA. I work for the Dallas Morning News on the retail advertising staff.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. REA. Forty.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Children?

Mr. REA. Three.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. REA. Nine years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. REA. I edited and published a suburban paper in Wynnewood.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve been in the newspaper business, I take it, all of your life?

Mr. REA. Yes; practically since I got out of college in 1949.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to college?

Mr. REA. At Texas Christian University.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you graduate?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What degree do you have?

Mr. REA. Bachelor of arts in journalism.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was in 1949?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you serve in the war?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Honorably discharged?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Rea, I have previously handed you a document consisting of one page which I have marked for identification on the right-hand margin as follows: “Dallas, Tex., June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Billy A. Rea,” and have signed my name, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and this document purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963. As I say, I have previously handed it to you so that you could read it and now I ask you if this half-page report is a correct report on the interview had of you by those FBI agents. Is there anything wrong or incorrect?

Mr. REA. Well, other than the fact that they misspelled my name, like I told you a minute ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Your name in that report is spelled “Ray,” whereas, in fact your name is spelled “Rea.”

Mr. REA. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And your first name, instead of ending in “ie,” ends in “y” [spelling] B-i-l-l-y?

Mr. REA. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, is Exhibit No. 1 correct?

Mr. REA. Not exactly. It says here that I recall seeing Jack Ruby sitting in Don Campbell’s chair “which chair is directly in front of the desk of Miss Georgia Mayor.” That is not correct. He was sitting in Don Campbell’s chair all right, but that chair is directly in front of the desk occupied by John Newnam. I don’t know how this got in here. I don’t recall anything other than that, except that it’s just a technicality, I presume--that is.

Now, also, he was there and I do recall him sitting in the seat directly in front of Georgia Mayor, however, that seat is occupied and assigned to Dick Saunders, who was here previously. He sits right directly in front of Georgia.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you first see Jack Ruby on that day?

Mr. REA. Well, you see, I had attended a funeral of a very close friend of mine that day and had gotten into the office late. I had a lot of things to do that I had postponed and I was in quite a bit of a hurry, and consequently that kept me from going to or attending the parade. I had planned to and wanted to. I got into the office just before noon, so I had to go eat to get with my business--I was running far behind, so we went to eat--I went to eat with a friend of mine and we got back into the office about between 12:30 and 12:40, I would say.

I don’t recall seeing Jack Ruby at that time. He could have been there but I don’t remember seeing him, whether he was in the office at that time or not. About that time--we hadn’t been in the office over a couple of minutes until these boys, the men I work with, some of them were actually at the scene of the assassination--they ran up there and told us that President Kennedy had been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Who in particular do you remember telling you that?

Mr. REA. Jim Willmon told me--he’s the one that told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been to the parade?

Mr. REA. Yes; he saw it or heard the shots.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the first news you got about the President?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?

Mr. REA. Well, I would say it was a quarter of one, I guess. Then, we went up--then, goodness--first of all--I thought--he’s the type boy that will kid a little bit, you know, he’s sort of an outspoken type individual, you know, and I thought--well, he was kidding, and I guess everybody else did too with the original idea or feeling or reaction to it, but then when I realized that he was serious, then we went upstairs up to the editorial room, thinking that perhaps we could get later information as it comes in, and so we went up there and stayed about 15 minutes or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen Jack Ruby then?

Mr. REA. I don’t recall seeing him all that time. I don’t know whether he was there or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What time do you think you got back from the room?

Mr. REA. It must have been around 1 o’clock or shortly after 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you then heard anything about the shooting of Officer Tippit or of an officer?

Mr. REA. Oh, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came down----

Mr. REA. Well, I say--no--the original report was that three FBI men or a couple of Secret Service men had been shot also.

Mr. HUBERT. You figure that when you came down from the pressroom it was about 1 o’clock?

Mr. REA. Yes, within 5 or 10 minutes either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you came down to the second floor?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you saw Ruby?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he then?

Mr. REA. He was at Don Campbell’s desk--that’s where he was. He was sitting there in Don Campbell’s chair which was directly in front of John Newnam’s desk, not Georgia Mayor’s.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?

Mr. REA. Sitting there--just sitting there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to you?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or you to him?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You had known the man, hadn’t you?

Mr. REA. Oh, yes, I knew him--not personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Newnam there with him?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He was alone?

Mr. REA. He was alone.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Saunders there?

Mr. REA. I don’t recall whether Saunders was there or not. I don’t remember. He could have been--I don’t remember. I can’t specifically identify him as being there. He could have been, but you know, confusion reigned, but I do definitely remember him sitting in that chair.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to show you a chart which has been marked as Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of John Newnam. It is a chart drawn by Mr. Newnam and I ask you to see if you can recognize it. Here is Young Street and here is Houston Street, and it purports to be the second floor?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the promotion department over on the right-hand side?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Over in this corner is Mr. Jeffery’s office?

Mr. REA. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. This desk No. 1 is his desk and this little dot with a circle is a TV set in his office?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you will notice that the retail advertising department is about the middle of the page and that each desk is numbered?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where you first saw Ruby--at what desk?

Mr. REA. Right here (indicating on Exhibit No. 4).

Mr. HUBERT. You are making a little “X” mark there between desks 23 and 25, right?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark it “Position of Ruby When First Seen By Rea,” is that right?

Mr. REA. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was sitting or standing?

Mr. REA. He was sitting.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is Mr. Newnam’s desk?

Mr. REA. No. 23.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him Mr. Newnam was not there?

Mr. REA. That’s right. There was no one around the desk.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him ever between desks 5 and 3?

Mr. REA. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose desk is that?

Mr. REA. Let me see--This is the desks for the secretaries and 3 is Georgia Mayor’s and 5 is Dick Saunders--yes--that would be correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him there?

Mr. REA. Yes; later on in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he talking to or was he alone?

Mr. REA. Yes; he was talking to--well, from time to time I saw him talking to various people. I do recall him talking to Georgia Mayor, our secretary.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall him talking to Saunders?

Mr. REA. I think--well, it seems like that later on--I know Dick was in there--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It would have been after 1 o’clock?

Mr. REA. Yes; oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him around the TV set?

Mr. REA. Yes; I observed him in here [indicating].

Mr. HUBERT. What seemed to be his reaction at that time?

Mr. REA. Oh, he definitely had a look of despair. I don’t know what you’d say--it was--he was emotionally “shookup” so to speak. There was no question about that. Of course, like I’ve told these other men that I’ve talked to, so was everybody else.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the point I wanted to get at. Do you think that he was more “shookup” than the other people around there?

Mr. REA. I’ll say--I’d say that he had a little bit different look--yes--a different type of an expression; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a recollection that you formed at that time or since?

Mr. REA. No, sir--yes--well--when I heard of the--well; yes, the picture of him just sort of stood out. It really impressed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, mind you, this was before he had had anything to do with this?

Mr. REA. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You now recall that he had a look that was different from other people’s?

Mr. REA. Well, yes; and I realized it at that time. Of course, now, you’d look around and people were crying, some of them were crying. He didn’t shed a tear, that I saw. Other people were staring at the floor, but this guy had an ashen, pale look that, you know, like he was in a state of shock.

Mr. HUBERT. And you noticed it then?

Mr. REA. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course afterwards, I suppose, when he became more closely connected with the matter, your recollection went back to that mental image?

Mr. REA. That’s right. I was just getting out of church when this happened. I didn’t watch it on television, so when we came out we tuned in the radio or right away turned it on and all this big bedlam was going on, that Oswald had been shot, and so within 5 minutes I was home, and within another 5 minutes this Georgia Mayor who also lives in Lancaster called, called over, and we discussed it at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you discussed your former recollection that he seemed to be more shocked than anyone else?

Mr. REA. Oh, yes; or the sort of strange look that he had, and like I said--also--whether that’s the normal thing for him under similar circumstances, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about closing the club at any time on that day?

Mr. REA. I never one time talked to him. I had no conversation with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the shooting of the officer?

Mr. REA. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you about the shooting of the officer?

Mr. REA. No; I did not hear him make any comment of any kind to anybody. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not aware whether he even knew that the officer had been shot?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him make any comment about the Weissman ad?

Mr. REA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with what the Weissman ad is?

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He never commented to you about it?

Mr. REA. Not to me; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the taking of the Weissman ad or placing it?

Mr. REA. No, sir; not a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did?

Mr. REA. I believe--well, Cy Wagner approved it. He’s the director of advertising, and a boy by the name of Dick Houston, I believe, actually took the money and ordered the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time Ruby left the second floor of the Dallas Morning News Building?

Mr. REA. No, sir; I couldn’t tell you that. I just don’t know. I left about--personally--oh, I’d say about 3 o’clock myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there then?

Mr. REA. Well, he was there then. I believe he was--I don’t even remember--I can’t remember that--I don’t know. It’s a mere guess, but I’m almost positive he was still there. Now, I don’t know--he could have gone and come back--I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that he might have been there as late as 3 o’clock?

Mr. REA. Well, it just seemed like--it seemed to me like he was there all afternoon. Now, he may not have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure about your leaving at 3 o’clock?

Mr. REA. I’m not positive about it--no--I do know I went downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear of the President’s death?

Mr. REA. Oh, well, when they announced it--whenever it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard the announcement?

Mr. REA. Yes; I heard the announcement.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there then?

Mr. REA. Well, I believe that when I actually heard that he was dead, that when they made the official announcement, that I was watching it on television in Dick Jeffery’s office and there were, I guess, 50 people around at the time milling around. I don’t know whether he was there or not.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him?

Mr. REA. It was likely that he was--I could not swear to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any particular reaction that he had to the President’s death as opposed to the shooting of the President?

Mr. REA. No; I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him leave, physically?

Mr. REA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all. Have you any other comment to make?

Mr. REA. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby thereafter?

Mr. REA. No, sir; well, I was subpenaed, well, not subpenaed either--they just called me.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean before the 24th?

Mr. REA. Oh, no--no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t think there has been any conversation between us that has been off the record, is that right?

Mr. REA. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Everything that has occurred between us has been on the record?

Mr. REA. Oh, yes; as far as I’m concerned.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

Mr. REA. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. SAUNDERS

The testimony of Richard L. Saunders was taken at 11:45 a.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Richard L. Saunders.

Mr. Saunders, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Saunders, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and his movements such as you may know them on the pertinent dates.

Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to come, is that correct?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you recall?

Mr. SAUNDERS. The date of the letter is June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. On June 24.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission pursuant to the joint resolution of Congress, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules also provide that they may waive that written notice if they see fit to do so and I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and testify now?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That is correct. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, so that I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, first of all, I have previously handed to you so that you could read it, a document consisting of three pages, and which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Richard L. Saunders”, below which I have signed my name. The document as I said, consists of three pages and I have marked on the second and third pages my initials in the lower right-hand corner. This purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963.

I have asked you to read it and to state to me now whether or not this is a correct report of that interview. I notice that there are some little question marks that you have here and perhaps it is best to take them one by one.

Mr. SAUNDERS. In general substance, that is a correct statement. There are some minor clarification points which I would like to bring out.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that there is a question mark, apparently, next to the last sentence of the second paragraph on page 1, which sentence reads as follows: “He estimated that it took him a total of 10 minutes to arrive at his office after the President’s car passed him and said that this would make his arrival time at approximately 12:40 p.m.” Do you have any comment to make about that, sir?

Mr. SAUNDERS. The travel time of 10 minutes is correct. The arrival time of 12:40 would be dependent upon the time of the assassination, which I am not aware of at this moment. In other words, if the President was shot at 12:30, I would have arrived at approximately 12:40.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when the President himself passed you?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I was approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass, at the railroad overpass at Stemmons.

Mr. HUBERT. And you walked back?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I was in my automobile. My car was parked at that underpass and I was outside of the car at a police motorcycle barricade.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact witness the shooting?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we could not see the actual site. We could see the building the Texas School Book Depository Building, but you could not see the area of the assassination from the area where I was positioned.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left the position from which you walked, were you then aware that there had been some shots fired?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes. There was one of our reporters, Mr. Larry Grove, was at that point with me and I asked Larry what had happened and he said both Connally and Kennedy had been shot. At that moment a directive came over the police radio on one of the motorcycles that the shooting came from--and they directed the personnel--whoever they were talking to over the radio to the given window, which has now been purported that from which the shots of the assassin came.

Mr. HUBERT. But you heard about it over the police radio of a motorcycle standing nearby where you were?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police announcement that the shots had come from a particular window in the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember if they described the window on the radio?

Mr. SAUNDERS. They said--I believe--it was the next to the top floor, an open window at the far right-hand side, and then there was evidently some communication there which I missed, and they clarified, “No; as you are standing facing the building it would be on the sixth floor.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you heard that, had the Presidential car carrying the President to the hospital passed by?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; it was just moments before that they had passed by.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you see the President or the Presidential party?

Mr. SAUNDERS. We could see the party. You could not define anyone specifically in the car. There was what I now assume was an agent perched on top of the convertible in the rear, hanging on for dear life, and everybody else except the driver was crouched down in a pile, so to speak, in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?

Mr. SAUNDERS. You could see no one. It was just a mass of people. The only two people you could possibly distinguish were the rider on the back seat of the convertible, with his foot in the seat sitting up in the back hanging on, and the driver in the car. The car went by at a very high rate of speed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after that--after the shots--did you observe what you have just described?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, I heard no shots. From my point there was enough traffic noise and general commotion that you couldn’t hear shots.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that the President had been shot?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, not more than 1 minute after the car had passed.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when the car passed, you were not aware that there had been some shots?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was only then when you heard it over the radio, I suppose, that you knew it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, at that moment as the car went by, there were two, possibly three, cars came by a few moments later--not necessarily in a close group, but they came filtering through--each in a high rate of speed.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you away from the Presidential car?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, 25 feet--two lanes of traffic.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was your car parked?

Mr. SAUNDERS. On the center median of Stemmons Expressway at the railroad overpass, approximately 100 yards west of the triple underpass. There is a bisecting rail line there.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing beside your car?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a police motorcycle there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. There were several police motorcycles there--purportedly to stop traffic on Stemmons as the Presidential motorcade came through.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, roughly 150 yards--100 to 150 yards.

Mr. HUBERT. When you heard the news over the radio, the police radio, what did you do?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I got back in my car.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I was alone; yes. I was headed to the building, to my office, at the time I stopped there.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take to go from the place you were parked there to your office building?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I took the cloverleaf off of Stemmons, which was another 200 yards south and turned back up Commerce Street and went through the triple underpass up to Young Street and turned--I mean--to Houston Street, and turned right on Houston Street down to Young Street, and my office is at that corner.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car in the street?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; I parked it in our parking stall at the rear of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked up to your office?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us now an estimate of the time it took you from the time the Presidential car passed by you with everybody stooped down in it until you got to your office on the second floor?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Approximately 10 minutes--I would estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked whether that can be done in 10 minutes?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, yes; it can be done in much less than 10 minutes; however, with the general confusion around the area, the traffic was somewhat stacked up and after waiting for a couple of lights to get to the office, which I had to pass by--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to your office, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I went directly to my office and as I walked into the office there were several salesmen in the office at the time, as is normal for noon deadlines on Friday, and I walked over to my desk and at that time Jack Ruby was standing beside my desk, or standing at my desk. He was not seated there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you engage him in conversation in any way?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I spoke to him--this is a rather heated time of day any Friday in our business, particularly in my own instance, and I was dubious as to where we might stand as far as publication of the paper, due to the events that had just transpired, and I spoke to Jack--I had called on him previously. I had known him for 6 or 7 years, and I spoke to him, and each of us in the office were conversing to one another, and when I spoke to Jack he was very obviously shaken, and an ashen color--just very pale--he nodded in reply, if he replied anything--it was just in agreement, so to speak. We were making statements like “Well, this is terrible,” and things like that, and he just agreed and nodded, and with that I sat down at my desk and finished some work which I was working on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him thereafter?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, he was wandering around in the office. After I finished some immediate work--he was talking to various people around the office and there was a small television at an adjoining desk and we were over there watching it at the time--just generally milling around in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. This was Mr. Jeffery’s office?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first came in, was Mr. Newnam there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Newnam has previously drawn for us and identified as Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of John Newnam, a chart showing the general layout of the second floor, the rectangular upper right-hand corner with No. 1 in it, being Mr. Jeffery’s desk, and this dot with the circle being the television set.

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m giving you this as a bit of orientation--this squiggly line is a glass partition?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, of course you see this is the promotion department?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. He has numbered here the various desks in the advertising department?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at this and tell us which is your desk?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No. 5.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that desk that you spoke to Ruby, as you indicated a while ago?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he with reference to No. 5?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Between 5 and 3--there are 4 desks there.

Mr. HUBERT. Your seat actually is also between 5 and 3, isn’t it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he on the Young Street side of your chair or the opposite side?

Mr. SAUNDERS. On the opposite side.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I’m going to mark a place--would you say he was here--or would you show me where he was?

Mr. SAUNDERS. May I?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, indeed. Just mark an “X” to show where he was.

Mr. SAUNDERS [the witness so marked the exhibit].

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will draw a little line out from here and say, “Ruby position when Saunders saw him”; is that correct?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were on the Young Street side of Ruby, right?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; we enter from this area here.

Mr. HUBERT. I see, you came from the other way?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right. This is nothing but a blank wall with windows on this side--the front of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m going to mark a place called “Y” and ask you if that’s when you saw him?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. This is where you were--“Saunders’ position.” How long did you talk to him--about?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just momentarily; just to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter have any further conversation with him?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you described him as being “shook up and ashen white,” and of course by “ashen white” I think you probably mean pale?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other manifestations which led up to what is really an intellectual conclusion of being “shook up”?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack is a very nervous individual and always has been. Having called on him in previous years and having known him from a business association over a period of approximately 6 years, you get to know an individual and their reactions to a certain degree. He was virtually speechless, which is quite unusual for Jack Ruby. He usually has a lot to say and will talk to you at very great lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. That was immediately after you came in?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--this was upon my entering the office there--I went directly to my desk and spoke to him, and he just had a very dazed staring look on his face. To describe it further is a little bit hard to do.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say anything?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not to my knowledge. Due to the fact that each of us were speaking to one another in tones of remorse and he was certainly replying just like any of the others, in agreement, that it was a terrible event.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time, was it known that the President had been shot?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not known, I take it, that the President had died?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No. There was some--there were rumors around, possibly 30 or 45 minutes later, that he was dead, but it was not officially noted possibly for another hour or possibly an hour and a half.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps you had better go over some of the other question marks you have--returning to the third paragraph?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in this sentence, “When Saunders first saw him, Saunders felt that Ruby was probably more shook up than any of the other people in the office at that time.” I don’t feel that he was necessarily “more shook up” than anyone else, but he was very obviously shaken by the events and the news of the President’s being shot.

Mr. HUBERT. You comment therefore is that this report indicating that you had said to the FBI people that he was more shook up or probably more shook up than any of the other people, is not an accurate statement of what you expressed?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I feel not.

Mr. HUBERT. And the accurate statement is that he was shook up like everybody else?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But not more so?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to the second page of Exhibit No. 1, I notice that in the fifth line you have a question as to a sentence reading as follows: “He never doubted Jack Ruby’s word at any time and Ruby never turned out to be a bad credit risk but always paid off exactly as he agreed.”

Mr. SAUNDERS. In our business association Jack Ruby’s club, the Vegas Club, was not extended credit by the Dallas News, but it was what we term a “cash with copy” account. He was advertising with us steadily, as he always did thereafter. At the time I was calling on him, quite often he would place advertising copy very close to deadlines over the telephone, which was not convenient to run 10 miles out to his club and try and get cash, where we had a 5-minute deadline or 10-minute deadline. I, in my own workings at the paper quite often work with accounts, and if they tell me “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” I’ll say “fine,” and I’ll go ahead and put the ad in the paper and go get the money the next day. This is what I would do.

I will not say I never doubted Jack Ruby’s word at any time. I think that is a misquote. It is a fact that he did do what he told me he would do on each instance, but any time in any business when you’re dealing with someone who is on a credit basis where there is no credit that has been established, you can’t help but take a tongue-in-cheek attitude, and certainly the statement makes it sound like I am trying to whitewash him, which I certainly do not mean to do.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s too broad--all you mean to say is that you would extend him credit on the terms you just described?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--on a personal basis.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice in apparently the 9th or 10th lines you have a question.

Mr. SAUNDERS. “Ruby never carried a gun on his person except on occasions when Ruby would be carrying money.”

I have never seen Jack or known of him to be carrying a gun on his person, but as stated further on, I have seen him counting money in his club and place that money into a paper sack and at the time place a gun that was in or on the desk, into that paper sack and walk out with it, but never to be carrying a gun on his person, in such a manner as to be concealed within a coat or pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your comment is that you don’t know whether he ever carried a gun, except as you have just described?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes; as I have just described it, that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the second paragraph--you have a little question mark there--“Ruby was known as being a woman chaser”--what about that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. “And to be particularly interested in the strippers that worked for him.”

Jack had related to me on occasion from time to time about that he might have dates with this stripper or that stripper, but not necessarily more so than any other girl that he might come in contact with. The point of being particularly interested in his strippers is somewhat misleading.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think that the word “particularly” doesn’t represent the thought that you meant to convey in the interview?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the next paragraph--there is a little question mark on the left-hand margin and I ask you what you have in mind there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, this was just conjecture on my part, just as any other person following the various news medias that Jack Ruby had previously to the shooting of Oswald been down to the Western Union office and wired money to a girl in Houston, I believe it was, and then it was reported that he had a large sum of money on his person at the time of the shooting of Oswald. My conjecture was he might have had a gun with him for those reasons, strictly from past experiences where I knew he had a gun about his person or in a paper sack when he had extra large sums of money with him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it’s conjecture on your part?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think the way the statement reads it indicates it is conjecture?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, that’s fine, but I did want that brought out that it is not a positive statement.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s not based on any facts you know about, but it’s your estimate of the situation from what you knew of him and of his operations?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see your question mark as to the last paragraph too?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, this is just my question here in regards to his telling me he had an injunction against another club advertising amateur nights of strippers. His point which he was attempting to show me one day--the injunction, which at the moment I was busy and didn’t have time to wait for him and excused myself--I did not see an injunction and this was just his word, and it was just the fact that these amateur nights as such--my understanding of the law reads--you can’t work as an entertainer unless you are licensed to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, all the statement says is that some time before Ruby had told you that, and is it true, that he did tell you that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right “* * * only a short time before the assassination.” Now, this was misleading--it was several days before. It wasn’t in terms of minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I see no other questions, so I take it that otherwise this statement represents a fair and correct report of the interview with you, as amended and as clarified, or is there anything else?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I believe that will clarify any questions in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby at any time about the Weissman ad?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with that ad at all?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I am.

Mr. HUBERT. He never spoke to you about that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He never complained to you or made any comment to you whatsoever?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, he did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to anyone else within your hearing?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the Weissman ad in this sense--did you have anything to do with placing it, or do you know who placed it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. You know nothing about how it got into the paper or who placed it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when he left?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Jack Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. When Jack Ruby left that day, when he left the offices?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, to ascertain a time, I would not try and hazard a guess, because his appearance there at the paper was a very commonplace thing, and to pay any particular attention as to when he comes and goes, we didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any independent recollection of having seen him after the first time you saw him when you first came in?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, I’d say I saw him in and about the office for approximately 30 minutes afterward.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t particularly notice his departure because there was no particular reason why you should?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do think he was there for 30 minutes after you first arrived--and after you first saw him?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talking to Mr. Newnam?

Mr. SAUNDERS. He was over in the area of Mr. Newnam’s desk, where he was normally placing his ads--where he would normally be placing his ads--through Mr. Newnam. In my own recollection as to whether it was Mr. Newnam or another salesman taking care of him at the time, I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to lunch with Mr. Newnam that day?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, if you know, whether Ruby was still there when the announcement that an officer had been shot, came over the news?

Mr. SAUNDERS. The announcement of an officer having been shot was made at approximately the same time as I entered, that there was conjecture at that time as to whether there was an officer--now, the officer you’re speaking of being Tippit?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, I would say he was not there at that time. There was conjecture that there might have been a Secret Service agent shot along with Kennedy at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That was when I first came in--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But the Tippit matter was considerably later, wasn’t it?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--it was considerably later, and to my knowledge Jack Ruby had departed at that time. Now, he might have been in another area of the building, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe he had departed?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I don’t recall having seen him. As I say, I can remember him being around for approximately 30 minutes and it was considerably longer than that before the report on the Tippit shooting came through.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact, of course, that the report on the President’s death came after the report of the shooting of Tippit?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would think that Ruby was gone when the announcement of the President’s death was made?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I noticed that in your statement which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, you have made some remarks concerning your knowledge of Jack Ruby and his striving for recognition and his desire to do the right things and his respect for authority, and so forth. Can you give us some examples that would illustrate these characteristics?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, Jack was always hovering around people in the newspaper business for some reason.

If myself or another salesman showed up at one of his clubs, it was almost the red-carpet treatment, which as advertising salesmen, we have no way to help him. We felt it was possibly a case of just wanting to be around newspaper people.

I know for a fact that Ruby quite often talked of knowing this police officer or that official in a bragging type manner.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a name-dropping situation?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Sort of a name-dropping situation.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was consistent, and for a long time?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right--as long as I knew him, and at any time that he could be around anyone that had a name, regardless of what position, whether it be in the entertainment business, whether it be a columnist, or whether it be a city official.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a specific example of that? If you could give us some specific examples, it would be helpful.

Mr. SAUNDERS. Oh, just quoting a specific example, with names--it’s been so long ago that I would hate to hazard a guess. It would just be a guess on my part.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his desire to do the right thing, which you recognize as a characteristic of this man, can you give me any examples of that?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, from the time I first knew him, he always wanted to, and in conversations with him about his business, which was normal in our contact, he would want to strive to make his club better than the next club, so to speak, and he would constantly point out areas where if there was any rowdiness or loud, drunkenness-type parties in his club, he would throw them out.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen it happen?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I’ve seen it happen, and not 3 weeks before the assassination--a Mr. Donald Campbell and myself, another advertising salesman, had visited for the first time his club.

Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel Club?

Mr. SAUNDERS. His Club Carousel, and at the time we were there, again it was very much the red-carpet treatment, wanting to know our opinions on his acts, and apologizing if the emcee had corny jokes, but he was working hard, and he had nothing but good things to say about most people, and the evening we were there there was a customer who had gotten a little out of hand, certainly nothing that you won’t see in any nightclub, and right away Jack Ruby took offense at it and told the person to leave and threw him out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he use force to do so?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; he just went over and very pointedly told the man “This is not allowed in this club. Will you get up and leave right now--out. We don’t want you around.”

Mr. HUBERT. And the man left?

Mr. SAUNDERS. And the man left. As far as seeing him use force, I have never seen him use force. I have heard that he did on occasion use force, however, it was surprising to me because I never thought of Jack Ruby as being one who could physically or being physically capable of using force. However, I was evidently mistaken on that point.

Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned as a characteristic of him that he seemed to have respect for authority?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, in the word “authority” is taken possibly out of context I should say--well, it’s almost the name dropping--anyone with any degree of notoriety.

Mr. HUBERT. And that would include of course people who had actual authority?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything concerning any underworld associations he might have had?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he express any opinion with regard to them?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no name dropping there?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or in that area?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express to you any sensitivity or consciousness about his Jewish background or the position of the Jew in society?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No; not that I recall. Many people that I call on are Jewish, in my particular phase of business, and this area is very commonplace with me and never taken offense at or was there any reason to bring it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever express any sensitivity in that area, or did you observe any?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, by way of closing this interview, I will ask you first of all if you have anything else you want to say?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Not that I can recall. I feel the statement pretty well covers any pertinent facts that I might be aware of.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there has been a very slight bit of conversation between us prior to the time this interview began, but I want to ask you whether in that slight conversation there was anything covered or mentioned that has not been recorded during the course of the interview?

Mr. SAUNDERS. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. SAUNDERS. Thank you. I appreciate your time.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, and I’m sorry to have kept you waiting.

Mr. SAUNDERS. That’s all right. Thank you again.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF THAYER WALDO

The testimony of Thayer Waldo was taken at 12:50 p.m., on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Thayer Waldo.

Mr. Waldo, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Waldo, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his movements and operations and associates and so forth.

I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. WALDO. On, as nearly as I can recall, Tuesday last.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and take the oath, please?

Mr. WALDO. Surely.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALDO. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please?

Mr. WALDO. Thayer Waldo. There is no middle initial.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. WALDO. 200 Burnett Street in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Apartment 520?

Mr. WALDO. No; I’ve moved from that. It’s now 926.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Fort Worth?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, Mr. Waldo?

Mr. WALDO. I am a newspaper reporter.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been such?

Mr. WALDO. You mean in the profession?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. WALDO. Approximately 24 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?

Mr. WALDO. Just a year.

Mr. HUBERT. With what newspaper were you prior to joining the Fort Worth Star-Telegram?

Mr. WALDO. Well, for several years before joining the Star-Telegram I was abroad as a foreign correspondent in Mexico, Cuba until it was no longer possible to remain in Cuba, and then in the Dominican Republic.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Waldo, I have just a moment ago handed you a document consisting of five pages which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Joseph L. Scott and Tom Carter on November 30, 1963, which I have marked for the purpose of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of Thayer Waldo” and “Leon D. Hubert” which I have placed on the margin of the first page of that document, the right-hand margin, and on all four pages I have identified them by placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on those pages. Have you had an opportunity to read this, sir?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether this document correctly reflects the interview and the truth as far as you know it. If you have any place, at which you would like to make a comment, point it out so that I may get into the record just what you are talking about, then you can make your comment.

Mr. WALDO. The report of the transcription here is substantially correct. I have pointed out to you previously two minor discrepancies.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, one of them is on page 3, the second paragraph--the fifth and sixth lines reading as follows, to wit: “Waldo identified himself over the telephone by name and by newspaper and asked the Sergeant if Oswald had been moved. Waldo said the Sergeant said ‘No, he would be moved in one-half or two hours’”. Now, I think you want to address yourself to those two sentences?

Mr. WALDO. That’s right. The circumstance was that we had remained, I say “we”, that is a colleague of mine with the same newspaper, Ed Johnson and I, who were forming the team. We had remained at police headquarters until about 1:30 a.m. on the morning of the 24th of November. Then, having made arrangements with the Associated Press man, who was to be on duty throughout the night, to give us a call immediately if there was any indication that Oswald was going to be moved in the small hours of the morning, we retired and left word at the Hilton Hotel desk and if no other call came through, they were to ring us at 7 a.m.

We were awakened by that call and I was so convinced that the approximate pinpointing by police officials on the day before of the time of Oswald’s transfer was a ruse, that my first thought on awakening or on being awakened was that there had been some slip-up in notifying us. Therefore, I immediately tried to call the pressroom at police headquarters. The telephone rang half a dozen times, there was no answer, I got the police department switchboard operator back and asked to be transferred to the homicide department. That call was answered by a man who identified himself quickly as Sergeant so-and-so. I do not recall the name--I’m not even sure I caught it at the time, and in my anxiety to learn the facts, I did not even think to identify myself either by name or organization but simply asked, “Have they moved Oswald yet?” Without asking me who I was, the sergeant replied, “No, sir; that will be in about 2 hours from now.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. WALDO. That was within 7 minutes--say, 7:05.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you had an arrangement with the Associated Press man to call you if there was any sign of moving him. May I ask whether that was an individual arrangement that you made or was that made for all newspaper people?

Mr. WALDO. No; at the time we made this--you see, after Chief Curry and Capt. Will Fritz of homicide division had both repeated several times that there would be no further movement or interviewing of the prisoner that day, and they themselves had left the building and all the offices were locked up, only a few of us still thought that there might be something going to take place and remained behind in the pressroom, so that about 1:30 a.m. when the janitors had moved in, and we finally decided for the moment at least, nothing was going to happen, the Associated Press man who was one of us--I’d say there were perhaps six of us at that time in the pressroom, and I’m trying to think of his name--Ray Holcomb [spelling] H-o-l-c-o-m-b.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the Associated Press?

Mr. WALDO. Of the Associated Press, who was then going off duty, volunteered to Johnson and myself, because we had expressed reluctance to leave the pressroom and yet were pretty “bushed” by that time, having had no sleep the night before, he said, “We’ll have a man on duty throughout the night and we’ll be checking in here regularly. I can let you know the minute anything happens, if you like,” and that was the arrangement.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this made with all the people in the pressroom or just made with you two?

Mr. WALDO. I don’t recall that anybody else requested such an arrangement or had it made with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether all the other people who left before you did had similar arrangements to be called in the event there was a sudden move?

Mr. WALDO. I do not--I did not specifically hear anybody make such arrangements.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said there was one other place in this report which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1 that you wish to comment upon, and I think it’s the last paragraph on page 5. What do you wish to say about that?

Mr. WALDO. Well, it mentions here that “Waldo stated he did not recall seeing Ruby while on the third floor on the night of November 23, 1963, talk to anyone except when handing out his cards.” The occasion was not at night. That was in the mid- or late afternoon of that date, November 23. I am not positive of the time but recall it as being approximately 4 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. But the point is that you did not see him on the night of the 23d?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I do not recall seeing Ruby after, oh, let’s say, 4:30 to 5 p.m. on Saturday until the events of the following morning.

Mr. HUBERT. And when you did see him on the 23d or around 4 o’clock or whatever time it was, you did not see him talk to anyone except when he was handing out cards?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not see him myself talk to anyone. I was told a number of things later by people, fragments of conversation, but of my own knowledge, I cannot testify to that.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time that you did see him on the afternoon of the 23d?

Mr. WALDO. Only in fact and in truth by recalling that it was 6 or minutes before 6, I believe, about 3 to 4 minutes of 6 when Chief Curry made his announcement that Oswald would be transferred to the county jail by 10 a.m. the following morning, and then thinking back on the time lapse, I would say there was roughly a 2-hour time lapse, remembering the things I did in between the two events, which is close.

Mr. HUBERT. So that it would be fair to say that the last time you saw Ruby up on the third floor of the police building on the 23d was around 4 o’clock in the afternoon?

Mr. WALDO. Well, certainly no later than 5. I saw him--I glimpsed him also apparently passing out cards and giving the same brief line of chatter to several people after myself, and it might have been half an hour afterwards and it might even have been 45 minutes, but no later certainly than 5 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. And I see that you fixed it by relating it to Chief Curry’s announcement and then backing off from that time?

Mr. WALDO. That’s correct, sir. I did look at the clock as soon as we received Chief Curry’s announcement to know who would be on my desk of the newspaper to receive it and recall that it was 3 to 4 minutes of 6.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing Ruby at the jail on Friday afternoon or night?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I do not. It is stated in there that I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Ruby at all, sir?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him or meet the man you now know to be Ruby?

Mr. WALDO. Well, if it can be called a meeting, it would be at approximately 2 p.m., Sunday, November the 24th when he was brought down from his seventh floor, I believe it’s the seventh floor jail cell to homicide offices on the third floor of Dallas Police Headquarters for interrogation and was led down the corridor from the jail elevator to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. I had reference really to a meeting on the 23d, the day before--Saturday--but apparently you don’t classify that as a meeting. I think you saw the man that you ultimately identified as Ruby on the third floor or in the police building on Saturday?

Mr. WALDO. That is correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first see him?

Mr. WALDO. I would say 5 or 10 minutes before he came up and gave me a card. I noticed he was passing out cards and saying something to people. There was such bedlam in the corridor of the third floor with the television apparatus that’s in there--unless someone was less than 10 feet from you, you could not hear what was being said.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you observed Ruby about 10 minutes before you had any further contact with him?

Mr. WALDO. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that called your attention to him especially?

Mr. WALDO. Only, I might say, a somewhat aggressive manner. I noticed that he was plucking at somebody’s sleeve to turn them around, and a few minutes later, seeing him give that man a card, and then a few minutes--2 or 3 minutes later--seeing him moving closer to where I was, giving out another card--as he gave out the card, giving the man a hearty slap on the arm--although I could not catch the words, I could catch the rather strident tone of his voice, and when he came up to me, although he did not behave in as gratuitously familiar a way in the sense of either clutching at my clothing or patting me, there was still a sort of overdone ingratiating manner as he gave out this card and said, and I’ll have to paraphrase it--I cannot remember the exact words--but it was something to this effect, “You’re one of the boys, aren’t you? Here’s my card with both my clubs on it. Everybody around here knows me. Ask anybody who Jack Ruby is. As soon as you get a chance, I want all of you boys to come over to my place, the one downtown here is more convenient, and have a drink on me. I’ll be seeing you.” That’s approximately it.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. WALDO. Approximately 4 o’clock, I would say, again basing it on my memory. I did not have a clock, I did not look at a watch or have a clock in vision at that moment.

Mr. HUBERT. It could have been as late as 5, you think?

Mr. WALDO. It could have been; yes. Time telescoped itself remarkably that day.

Mr. HUBERT. What leeway can you give on the 4 o’clock time the other way, that is, toward 3 p.m.?

Mr. WALDO. Let me think about that a moment. It’s very, very difficult to be even semi-exact about it at this distance. However, I would certainly have to say in all honesty that there could be half to three-quarters of an hour--I could be off--either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, I just noticed that on page 4 of the report to the FBI, the very last sentence on that page, the last line, that’s Exhibit No. 1, there is also a reference to the night of November 23, and since you have changed it previously to the afternoon, I would say that that applies to that, too, doesn’t it?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the last line on page 4 of Exhibit No. 1, where it says “night of November 23” should read “afternoon of November 23” where it’s there and the times would be as we have been discussing?

Mr. WALDO. Exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby at any time prior to this occasion you have just described?

Mr. WALDO. Not to recall him; no.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are quite certain that the man who did hand you this card and the man you ultimately came to know as Jack Ruby were the same person?

Mr. WALDO. To the very best of my belief and knowledge. At the time he handed me a card, he was wearing a hat, and when I saw him in the corridor on Sunday the 24th after his arrest he was not wearing a hat, but the man looked to be the same, and as I have stated, when he handed me the card, he identified himself verbally as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t have the card today?

Mr. WALDO. No; unfortunately that seems to have been among several things that have disappeared.

Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know then you would say that Jack Ruby was at the police department approximately an hour or an hour and a half on that afternoon--you can’t tell whether it was more than that, but you would say it was not less?

Mr. WALDO. Yes; that’s true.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you tell us anything about the security arrangements or identification arrangements that were in effect throughout the whole period, that is, from the time of the President’s assassination on forward--in the jail, I’m talking about?

Mr. WALDO. In the jail--no, I went directly, as is stated in this transcript, the report, I went directly from the Trade Mart to Dallas Police Headquarters on the afternoon of November 22 within a matter of 30 minutes after we had learned that the President was shot. In fact, I was on the Stemmons Freeway passing the resort motel called “La Cabana” at the moment that the car radio reported the President is dead.

When I arrived at Dallas Police Headquarters, I was the first reporter of any medium, so far as I know, certainly there was no other in evidence--to reach the third floor. No one attempted to stop me or ask for any identification at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any identification on your person?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir; I had a badge--I have it with me in this book, if it’s of any interest to see it, merely identifying “Dallas, November 22, President Kennedy’s Visit,” which I was wearing on my lapel.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a press identification card in connection with the visit?

Mr. WALDO. That’s right, and the offices of the hierarchy of the Dallas Police Department are located on the third floor, were almost deserted, since Chief Curry, Deputy Chief Stevenson and others of the staff had either been assigned to the Presidential motorcade or to the Trade Mart, or in the case of Chief Curry, were invited guests or to have been invited guests at that luncheon. The man who was in the building in the offices, the highest ranking officer to whom I was directed by one of the secretaries, was Capt. Glenn King, who has subsequently been identified to me as in charge of public relations of the Dallas Police Department. I walked into Captain King’s office--is this of interest?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. WALDO. I walked into Captain King’s office and identified myself by name and newspaper and immediately noticed a fleeting expression on his face, which sometimes we who work in Fort Worth and have dealings with Dallas officials, have come to recognize, most particularly when something has taken place in Dallas which may give unfavorable publicity to that city, and before I could finish my question, Captain King interrupted and very courteously said, “Mr. Waldo, we know absolutely nothing here. We have heard rumors that there were some shots. We do not know where the shots came from or who they were aimed at, if anybody, or if anybody was hit. We don’t know anything.”

I could not help but assume that this was what in the vernacular might be called a brushoff, since in several open unoccupied offices and within hearing distance as I was speaking to him, there were police radio receivers turned on. Therefore, I had to assume that he sitting there must have been informed of the events.

Mr. HUBERT. And this was approximately at 1:35 or 1:40, wasn’t it?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you said you heard the announcement of the President’s death en route to the police department, and that was at 1:30?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The announcement of the President’s death was at 1:30, was it not?

Mr. WALDO. I thought, and I could be mistaken and I’m sure you’re in a better position after all your investigation, I was under the impression that it was earlier than that, that it was approximately 1:25--yes, about 1:30 or 1:35.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, it had been broadcast over the public radio that the President was dead, at the time you spoke to Captain King and he told you what you just stated?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir. I don’t believe anything of significance happened between that and the time that I noticed a little flurry of activity. I should say, incidentally, that in the interim, which would be approximately 35 to 40 minutes during which time I was talking to my desk, I might add that the girls in the office were extremely cooperative. One of the girls even said, “Well, you’ll want to be in here,” the pressroom being at the far end of the third floor corridor from there, “Just use my desk. I’ll move away. Use my telephone.”

I had talked to my desk at the Star-Telegram, and then I noticed a little flurry of activity, and as I say, during this time several of the high ranking officers, none of whom I knew by name at that time, had come in, and I asked a girl who had been standing with them in Captain King’s office, as I recall, just a few minutes, and then came out, “What’s going on?” and her answer was, “They found a rifle.” I asked, “Where?” and she said, “On the roof of the School Book Depository Building.” Of course, I stress this is secondhand information. She is giving it from what she heard from a high ranking official who undoubtedly was told by somebody else. In any case, that information was telephoned to my newspaper and I believe was used in at least one edition. Later it was officially stated, of course, that the rifle had been found on the sixth floor.

I think it is probably worth mentioning that I was present at the time that Officer McDonald and the other detectives brought the man who was subsequently identified to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in. In fact, by then there were two Dallas radio reporters and I cannot tell you who they were or what they represented. We were moving too fast at that time. Those were the only others. The three of us interviewed Officer McDonald in the hall immediately after he had delivered Oswald into the hands of the people in homicide. In fact, blood was still trickling down McDonald’s chin from the cut lip where he said he had been struck by Oswald, and at that time he gave us a version of the capture of Oswald, which was substantially in all details but one as it has subsequently been repeated on numerous occasions, including the sworn testimony at Jack Ruby’s murder trial.

The one difference was that at the trial and in other accounts that I have heard, it has been stated that when the house lights in the Texas Theatre were turned up and the officers approached Oswald, that he jumped to his feet, crying, “This is it!” and reached for the gun in his belt. Officer McDonald, at the time of that interview in the hall, moments after he had delivered Oswald into custody, was that what Oswald said when he jumped up was, “It’s all over!” That’s the only difference.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume that shortly after that the press began to crowd up into the third floor?

Mr. WALDO. They did indeed, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Not merely the press, but other news media?

Mr. WALDO. And people who were not news media. Access to that third floor for a number of hours thereafter appeared to be enormously easy.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you describe that--I know that you are describing it in that way--a negative way--but to put it this way, were there no guards on the elevators or the other means of access to the third floor for a number of hours?

Mr. WALDO. That’s correct, sir; there were not.

Mr. HUBERT. Subsequently there were?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did the guards do by way of maintaining security?

Mr. WALDO. The elevators in the Dallas Police Department open into a fairly large square area--I say “large” in comparison to the width of the corridor that runs out, and eventually two uniformed, I believed, motorcycle patrolmen were placed in that open space facing the elevators and at least theoretically, and I will explain that in a moment, required identification, meaning press credentials of some sort from anyone who attempted to get off that elevator and into the hall, unless it was naturally someone accompanied by an officer, as in the case of the wife and mother of Lee Oswald and so on.

I personally as late as 8 p.m. that night, and again this is approximate, but I would say about 8 p.m. saw two men get off the elevator and walk right past the guards, neither of them having any badge on and not be challenged or stopped. I believe but I’m not certain that it was one of these two men, who 5 to 10 minutes later, came up where I was standing talking to a European reporter from the “Agence France Press,” and asked “What’s the latest, what’s going on?”, which I might add is just not the way a newsman would ask a colleague. In fact, he wouldn’t do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Your impression is that those two men were not newspapermen?

Mr. WALDO. My impression is that they were not, and I am certain from my own visual evidence in any case, that they walked out of the elevator past the two guards without being challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they went?

Mr. WALDO. It was impossible to tell. By that time there were 250, probably, people jammed into that corridor.

Mr. HUBERT. What were the circumstances under which the viewing of Oswald in the assembly room on Friday were held?

Mr. WALDO. Well, at what I would judge to be approximately 10 to 10:30 p.m., Captain Fritz and District Attorney Wade came out of the homicide office into the third floor corridor and Captain Fritz, whose voice never carries--he speaks in a hoarse whisper most of the time--tried to say something, and there were immediate shouts of “We can’t hear you, we can’t hear you” from people only 15 feet away. So then Mr. Wade took over and I was close enough to hear him say that Oswald had been formally charged with the assassination of President Kennedy, but immediately there were cries from people two or three rows, if that’s the word, behind me in this jammed, packed mass, “Henry, we can’t hear you. We can’t hear you. Can’t we hold this someplace else?”

He then conferred with Captain Fritz and by then Chief Curry had moved in, maybe Chief Curry was there all the time--I didn’t notice him--but the three conferred and then Chief Curry, who can on occasion speak with considerable force and volume, called out and everybody heard this, “All right, we’ll set it up in the Police Assembly Hall in the basement for Mr. Wade to make his announcement, if that’s what you want?” Or--approximately those words, and then there was another momentary conference between the district attorney and the two police officials, and Chief Curry added, and I am almost certain that no one requested this--it was a voluntary statement on his part, “And I’ll have the prisoner brought down for you, too, if you like.”

So, immediately there was movement, because the TV people had to start getting their equipment down, all of which of course took a considerable time. I might add first that Curry said, “We can do it in about 20 minutes,” but while waiting for the TV cameras to be transferred down and set up properly, it took more than an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. What security measures or identification measures were used to start security as to the assembly room, as to who would go in it?

Mr. WALDO. None whatever that I observed. I myself walked down the stairs, which faced the elevators on the third floor, to the basement. The basement is also the site of the police booking office. People were being brought in or coming in to inquire about relatives, I presume. That seemed to be the general tenor of it, and were not being kept away, and peering curiously into this police assembly room where everything was being set up.

Mr. HUBERT. There were no guards at the entrance of the assembly room?

Mr. WALDO. None that I saw, sir; no.

Mr. HUBERT. So that everybody got into the assembly room who wanted to get in, and Oswald was brought down shortly thereafter?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that the interview was of very short duration?

Mr. WALDO. It was, and it was preceded by a very stern warning from Chief Curry--that any undue movement to crowd in on the prisoner or shove cameras forward or to clamor on furniture, would immediately cause the interview to be cut short and he said, “The prisoner will be taken away and will not be brought back; is that clear?” He said, “I want everybody to stay where he is.”

The interview was very brief. The thing that sticks most in my mind, considering the fact that before Oswald was brought down District Attorney Wade had stated in some detail how Oswald was taken before a justice of the peace and formally charged with the assassination of President Kennedy, that when the prisoner in the assembly room was asked, “Why did you kill the President?” He replied, “I haven’t killed anyone and no one has even mentioned to me anything about the President except you people.”

Mr. HUBERT. Who was it asked him the question, “Why did you kill the President?”

Mr. WALDO. Gosh, I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. HUBERT. It was some newsman?

Mr. WALDO. It was a newsman; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby in that group?

Mr. WALDO. I did not see Ruby that evening; no, sir. I do recall, but only because it was called to my attention afterward, that at the tail end of the interview, a man with a loud voice was calling to Wade to come over and say something in a microphone, and I do recall distinctly that this voice cut through the din with remarkable stentorian quality, and of course it has been testified at Jack Ruby’s trial that this was he, acting for a friend at a radio station who wanted to put a statement by Wade on tape for subsequent broadcast.

Mr. HUBERT. That was while Oswald was still in the room?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had left?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What caused the end of the Oswald interview?

Mr. WALDO. As I recall it, following what could have been anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes of questions, Chief Curry stepped forward and said, “That’s enough. Take him back.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any violation of his regulation about crowding and so forth?

Mr. WALDO. Not seriously. There was a little sort of press forward, but not seriously.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did he indicate that that’s why he was ending the interview?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning finally to November 24, I think you’ve told us how you got down there, and your statement indicates that you were standing on the outside of the building at the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Along with a number of other newsmen, when a Lieutenant Butler invited the press people into the jail; is that correct?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir; with one exception. There was not a number of other newsmen, there were only, as I recall, three of us standing out on that sidewalk at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a press identification on you then?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir; and when Butler, and pardon me--let me put this in--the armored vehicle had by that time been backed into the ramp, and there was some comment among the three of us standing on the sidewalk, the curious fact that the vehicle which was too high to go down the ramp, was being left there, when a smaller armored vehicle had been brought at the same time and was parked by the curb. Lieutenant Butler stuck his head out around this vehicle and said, “Come on down.” There were two motorcycle policemen who were two of the same policemen who had been standing guard duty on the third floor. They had over the period from the 22d through the 23d, they had several shifts of them. They were two of the same, and as I approached one of them in this comparatively narrow space between the column that forms the frame of the ramp and the side of the vehicle where he was standing, he grinned at me and recognized me immediately and said, “How are you this morning? I know you, but I still have to ask you for your credentials.” So, I got out my credentials. I had the badge on, but beyond that he required my Department of Public Safety identification.

Mr. HUBERT. That was even after Lieutenant Butler invited you in?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been seeking to get in prior to that and had been denied?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. It was just that you had arrived at that time?

Mr. WALDO. Well, we had arrived some time earlier and had seen the preparations. I had gone upstairs and checked Chief Curry’s office and had been told that it would be half to three-quarters of an hour yet before the prisoner would be removed. This was at the time that I arrived over there on Commerce Street from the hotel, and that everybody would be notified before there was any movement, so since it was a pleasant morning, we were standing out on the sidewalk--the three of us.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told it was going to be by elevator down into the basement and then through the basement ramps out Commerce Street?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that, sir?

Mr. WALDO. As I recall it, it was Lieutenant Butler himself, who was on the third floor at the time I went up, and I would like to for whatever it’s worth, add something at this point. Lieutenant Butler was since, oh, probably 2:30 on the afternoon of the 22d of November, the man whom I had sought out on every occasion that I wanted to learn something about developments, whenever I could find him, because he was a man of remarkable equanimity, poise, and very cooperative within the authorization that he had, and the first thing----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would give you more news than anybody else?

Mr. WALDO. He was more able to understand what was wanted and he was always in on, apparently, on high-level information, and if it was for release, he would be the one who would have it and be most willing apparently to give it. This is a thing that happens in circumstances like this. A reporter picks out a man, tries him out, and if he finds that he’s cooperative the first time, he tries to stick to him, because by that time the official recognizes his face.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you find that other officials were not so cooperative?

Mr. WALDO. I would say, yes, to that with reference to the 22d and part of the 23d. By Saturday afternoon, the 23d, everybody seemed to be pretty accessible and pretty willing to answer questions. What I wanted to say about Lieutenant Butler was that this almost stolid poise, or perhaps phlegmatic poise is a better word, that I had noticed all through even the most hectic times of the 22d and the 23d, appeared to have deserted him completely on the morning of the 24th. He was an extremely nervous man, so nervous that when I was standing asking him a question after I had entered the ramp and gotten down to the basement area, just moments before Oswald was brought down, he was standing profile to me and I noticed his lips trembling as he listened and waited for my answer. It was simply a physical characteristic. I had by then spent enough hours talking to this man so that it struck me as something totally out of character. Now, he may merely have had a bad night.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time, had the movement of Oswald begun or was it known that he was coming?

Mr. WALDO. It was imminent at that time--it was imminent.

Mr. HUBERT. The words, “Here he comes”--those famous words--had not yet been uttered?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to the time Oswald was brought down did Butler invite you into the basement?

Mr. WALDO. I’d say the time lapse there was 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that the time was getting imminent and that you must come in?

Mr. WALDO. That we could come in, that we should come in.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you by way of indicating that the movement was about to take place?

Mr. WALDO. As I recall, when he stuck his head out and around the vehicle and looked to see who was there, he just said, “Come on down now.”

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say that it was imminent, but you construed it as such?

Mr. WALDO. Well, after we had passed the scrutiny at the ramp entrance and continued on down, I followed my custom and immediately sought him out and asked him, “Are they just about ready to move him?” and he said, “I understand he’ll be brought down shortly, you’ll have notice.” By the way, I recall one other minor discrepancy that exists in that report. At this particular time and thought we’re talking about now, I believe it even states in that report that when I entered the ramp, there were several police vehicles parked; is that in there?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think it does say that.

Mr. WALDO. That is incorrect.

Mr. HUBERT. On page 3, the last paragraph says, “Waldo said he noticed in the ramp three police cars were parked in a straight line, one behind each other, facing toward Commerce Street.”

Mr. WALDO. Yes; that is some misunderstanding on the part of the gentleman who took the transcript. There was no vehicle in the ramp at the time that I entered except the armored vehicle which had been parked right at the mouth of the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. And behind the armored vehicle, there were none when you went in?

Mr. WALDO. When I first went down. It was approximately 8 to 10 minutes after I had been down in the ramp area, and there were then a hundred or more representatives of news media in that area.

Behind us, and now let me see if I can get this straight--the ramp of course goes from north to south, from Main to Commerce, and for perhaps half its length, one quarter at each end, there is nothing but blank wall on each side of the ramp. For the other half, the middle half, and on the--don’t take this down and tell me the direction?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it’s pertinent we want it.

Mr. WALDO. Well, Main is north of Commerce--right?

Mr. HUBERT. It would be the east.

Mr. WALDO. Yes--but on the west side is the entrance to the building and the jail elevators and so on, and on the east side is a parking--a large submerged parking area, and it was 8 to 10 minutes after I had gotten downstairs when they began what appeared to be at first a quite confused movement--several detectives, plainclothes officers got into police cars parked down there and started to move them, with what appeared, and in fact I commented on this to a colleague, an unnecessary amount of jerking movement, lack of coordination so that one almost ran into the other and they were backing and filling and nobody could figure what they were doing with them, and meanwhile Butler, I believe it was, or someone was telling us all to get back out of the way, and finally they maneuvered these three cars into place one behind the other back of the armored vehicle.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time before the shooting did they back the armored car into the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALDO. Oh, that would have been--let’s see--I arrived over there about 9:30–10 or shortly thereafter it was that the car was brought in.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you went in at Butler’s suggestion or invitation about 25 minutes prior to the shooting?

Mr. WALDO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And then the cars were moved in behind the armored car about 10 minutes before the shooting?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a car go out the Main Street entrance around that time?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not. It could have happened and I didn’t see it, but I certainly didn’t.

Come to think of it, I don’t believe it could have happened without my seeing it, considering the physical setup over there, however, that’s not important.

Might I add that at the time that I entered the ramp area, the crowd of people standing along the south side of Commerce Street had grown to about 200. It was maybe 100 when I first arrived there, and this I took to be due to the fact that there appeared to be, from what I heard and cars passing stopped for traffic lights that had their radios on, broadcast announcements every few minutes that Oswald was going to be moved soon.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if all those people had been moved over to the opposite side of Commerce Street by the police?

Mr. WALDO. I cannot testify to that. They were all on the opposite side when I arrived there.

Mr. HUBERT. You arrived about 9:30, you say?

Mr. WALDO. About 9:30; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And of course you went upstairs and so forth in the interval before you went down into the basement?

Mr. WALDO. Yes; but I was not upstairs a matter of more than 10 to 15 minutes before I returned to the same.

Mr. HUBERT. And during the period between 9:30 and approximately 11 or shortly before 11, when you went down into the ramp and excepting the time when you were upstairs, which you say was very slight, you were in the area of the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby in that area at anytime?

Mr. WALDO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice a large TV--the vans and equipment they used?

Mr. WALDO. Oh, yes; they had been there permanently, I’d say.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby or anyone who looked like him hanging around those vans around 10 o’clock or at anytime?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s all I have to ask, Mr. Waldo. Is there anything you want to add further, sir?

Mr. WALDO. No; I would simply offer you this, if it’s of any interest.

Johnson and I within the week after the events of November 22–24, feeling that it might be of interest, sat down and collaborated on a manuscript which we called, “The Dallas Murders,” which was sent to my agent in New York for possible placement. It did not get placed, apparently, because as she informed me of the announcement before she could get it to anyone that the Associated Press and the United Press were going to come out with these books.

I have a copy of that with me, and if it would be of any interest, I would be personally happy to have the Commission have it.

Mr. HUBERT. I do not know if they wish it, but suppose that we note it, and of course it has been noted by the mere fact that you stated it, with the understanding that if it is desired, the general counsel of the Commission or the Commission itself could write to you, I suppose, and you would be willing to send it on. It’s a manuscript, as I understand it?

Mr. WALDO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you. I don’t think you and I have met before today?

Mr. WALDO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think we’ve had any conversation since we’ve met that has not been recorded, do you agree with that?

Mr. WALDO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed.

Mr. WALDO. All right.

TESTIMONY OF CLYDE FRANKLIN GOODSON

The testimony of Clyde Franklin Goodson was taken at 2:45 p.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Clyde F. Goodson. Mr. Goodson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Goodson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Goodson, I think you have appeared today by virtue of the general request addressed to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, asking that he make available for deposition certain officers of the police force, is that correct?

Mr. GOODSON. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition. In this case, of course you have not had that 3-day notice.

But the rules also provide that any witness may waive the notice and proceed to testify without the notice, and I ask you now since you have not received the written notice, whether you are willing to waive the notice and proceed to testify now?

Mr. GOODSON. I am.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GOODSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name, please.

Mr. GOODSON. Clyde Franklin Goodson.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your address?

Mr. GOODSON. 6529 Oleta Dr.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. GOODSON. A policeman for the city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. GOODSON. About 7½ years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. GOODSON. Twenty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goodson, I have just a moment ago handed to you a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Vincent Drain, dated June 18, 1964, consisting of one page, which I have marked for the purpose of identification on the right-hand margin as follows:

“Dallas, Tex., July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Clyde F. Goodson,” under which I have written my name.

Have you read this document, sir?

Mr. GOODSON. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that correctly state the entire contents of the interview and the substance of the interview?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are the facts stated therein, so far as you remember, correct?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known Jack Ruby prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. GOODSON. I would say the first time I saw him was approximately 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to meet him?

Mr. GOODSON. The district that I worked for about 6 years was in the downtown area, and on the edge of the South Dallas area, and by answering calls in that vicinity and routine checks of his place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the Vegas Club?

Mr. GOODSON. The Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet him in connection with the Vegas or at the Vegas Club?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any social meetings?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say then that the only time you saw him during the past 5 years, which is from the time you first met him, was in connection with some official police business?

Mr. GOODSON. It was; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many times during those last 5 years do you suppose you have seen Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. Oh, I guess just an estimate, six or seven times.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the last time prior to November 22, 1963, that you saw him, do you suppose?

Mr. GOODSON. I would say about 3 months before; 2 or 3 months before.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the occasion?

Mr. GOODSON. Not specifically. I remember 2 or 3 months before then, my partner and I--I don’t recall who I was working with at that time--answered a call there on Commerce Street at one of the bars, who was supposed to be drunk and causing a disturbance. They said he left and went next door, which was another small bar, and we went there, and the people said he had been there, but had just left out. So the Carousel was the next place, and we walked in and checked it.

Mr. HUBERT. You were looking for a drunk?

Mr. GOODSON. We were looking for a drunk.

Mr. HUBERT. That had been reported causing a disturbance?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went into the Carousel finally?

Mr. GOODSON. We went into the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Ruby then?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes; he was up there, and I just talked to him for a few minutes, the most I have ever talked to him, and then we left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know your name?

Mr. GOODSON. I don’t think he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew his name?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I knew him when I saw him; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him by name, or merely by sight?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I knew him by name and by sight. I knew who he was when I saw him.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than the five or six times during the last 5 years that you did see him on official duty, did you see him anytime unofficially in the sense of just walking down the street or passing him or saying hello, or passing the time of day, or something like that?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you did not go to his club on a social basis?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were on duty at the entrance of the homicide bureau on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department building starting at 5:30 p.m., is that correct?

Mr. GOODSON. Approximately 5:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you come on duty at that time?

Mr. GOODSON. No; I had been on duty all day.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been up on the third floor prior to 5:30?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Where had you been?

Mr. GOODSON. I was working my regular district during the day.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. GOODSON. It was district No. 103. Starts on the edge of the downtown area and goes south on Corinth Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to 5:30 on November 22 you had no occasion to be in the headquarters building at all?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were called in to perform some duty there?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that duty?

Mr. GOODSON. They assigned me to work at the door there in the homicide bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Who assigned you?

Mr. GOODSON. Sergeant Richardson.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. GOODSON. Richardson.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any instructions?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir. He told me that I was to stand at the door and to let no one in except police officers that were investigating the case, and FBI, and Secret Service.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you were to stand there, what did they mean?

Mr. GOODSON. I stood directly in front of the door.

Mr. HUBERT. What door?

Mr. GOODSON. To the homicide bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone else with you?

Mr. GOODSON. The officers up and down the hallway, but I don’t recall anyone standing right there at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. No one was put in a stationary position such as you were?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. GOODSON. I stayed there, oh, to about 7:30 or so; around 7:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you fix the time that you began that duty at 5:30?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, my regular assignment ended at 3:30, and it was about 4 o’clock before I got over to the city hall, and I was told to report to the detail room where I stayed some 40 minutes, I would say, and then I was assigned up there on the door to the homicide bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you fix the time when you left that detail at 7:30?

Mr. GOODSON. It was just as I recall, it was around 7:30. No specific reason to say that it was exactly 7:30. I don’t recall looking at the exact time. We had to check off what time we left.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to leave by anyone?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was relieved by another officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his name?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you were allowed to go home?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did so?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you see Jack Ruby on the third floor of the Dallas City Jail during the period 5:30 to 7:30 when you were standing guard before the homicide bureau door?

Mr. GOODSON. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you have mentioned that you, about 6 p.m., saw a man that you thought resembled Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I didn’t say he resembled Jack Ruby. I said that possibly someone would mistake him for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that that was about 6 o’clock?

Mr. GOODSON. Approximately. Just estimating from the time I had been there until the time this person came up.

Mr. HUBERT. Now this person that you referred to is the one I think you say that fitted the description of Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. He resembled him some, as far as age and height and so forth.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do when he came up?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, when he came up there, he was about two-thirds drunk, and he was kind of loud, and he came over to the door and was as though he was going to walk in, and I asked him who he was, and he began asking me what had happened and what was going on and what was being done so far as what had happened, and he said that he wanted inside, and I asked him who he was, and he said he was with a newspaperman from the White House press, and he never did show me any identification.

Mr. HUBERT. He did show you?

Mr. GOODSON. He did not. I told him that he would have to wait in the hallway with the other news people.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you aware that they were checking the people on the third floor for identification as news people?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I didn’t know whether they were or not. They had some officers assigned there at the elevator and the stairway. I don’t know what their job was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call attention to anyone that this man you have just described had attempted to get into the office, and that he was in what you considered to be a drunken condition, or semidrunken condition?

Mr. GOODSON. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he just go away then?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, he stood around there for quite awhile talking to the other newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he passing out cards or anything of that sort?

Mr. GOODSON. Not that I saw.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed, do you remember?

Mr. GOODSON. He had on a suit and dark-colored----

Mr. HUBERT. Hat?

Mr. GOODSON. No; he didn’t have on a hat. Wore glasses. His hair was dark, but it had a lot of gray around the temples, around the edge of his hairline.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you are positive that that man was not Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. This person was not Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. What was there about him that you thought made him fit the description of Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. He was approximately the same age and same height and built the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. Same hair?

Mr. GOODSON. Well, I don’t believe Ruby would have as much gray in his hair as he had.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty any day after the 22d?

Mr. GOODSON. Was I on duty, you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. At the city hall, at the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. GOODSON. On the door up there of the homicide bureau?

Mr. HUBERT. Or any place?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir; I was. That was on a Saturday, I believe. I was off Sunday and Monday, and I came back the next Tuesday.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, the days where you were posted at the door before homicide bureau, was that on the 22d or 23d?

Mr. GOODSON. It was on the 22d.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on the 23d were you on duty that Saturday?

Mr. GOODSON. I was off Sunday and Monday. That was on a Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOODSON. I was on duty then.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty? At headquarters?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir; I was working my regular district.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby during any time on the 22d, 23d, or 24th?

Mr. GOODSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Detective Sandy Standifer?

Mr. GOODSON. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you report to anyone that you had seen a man that fit the description of Jack Ruby, as you have stated, at the time and place that you have stated? But that he was not Jack Ruby? Other than the statement to the FBI?

Mr. GOODSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard that there are reports that Jack Ruby did attempt to get into the homicide office?

Mr. GOODSON. Just rumors is all I have heard of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any report to anyone concerning your seeing this man who fit the description of Jack Ruby, but it was not he?

Mr. GOODSON. I don’t think he fit the description of him close enough that anyone that knew him or had seen him before--I don’t believe he fit the description close enough to assume that that was him.

That is the only person I could think of that would even come close to resembling him, would be up there that I saw there.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, that anyone that knew Jack Ruby at all would know immediately that this man was not Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOODSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all. Can you think of anything that we have discussed off the record? I don’t believe there have been any off-the-record discussion that has not been made a part of this deposition.

Mr. GOODSON. No; not that I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much for coming down.

TESTIMONY OF RONALD LEE JENKINS

The testimony of Ronald Lee Jenkins was taken at 1 p.m. on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Ronald L. Jenkins. Mr. Jenkins, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Jenkins, the matter of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Jenkins, you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to appear before me to take your deposition, is that correct?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you received that letter, sir?

Mr. JENKINS. The latter part of last week. I don’t know which day, exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been Friday, or earlier?

Mr. JENKINS. I believe earlier. I believe it was July 10 or earlier.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JENKINS. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. JENKINS. Ronald Lee Jenkins.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. JENKINS. 1048 South Bryan, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. JENKINS. Twenty-seven.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. JENKINS. A news editor for KBOX Radio, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been connected with that station for very long?

Mr. JENKINS. I have been connected with KBOX since the 1st of August of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. JENKINS. I was news director at KAYC at Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with that organization?

Mr. JENKINS. Fourteen months.

Mr. HUBERT. Then prior to that, what was your occupation?

Mr. JENKINS. Three and a half years, U.S. Army News Corps to the American Forces Network.

Mr. HUBERT. Honorable discharge?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Jenkins, I have previously handed you, and I think you have read a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you by Special FBI Agents Edmond Hardin and Robert J. Wilkinson on December 10, 1963, the document consisting of three pages.

For the purpose of identification, I have marked the first page as follows, to wit: In the right-hand margin, “Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Ronald L. Jenkins,” under which I have signed my name, and I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages.

Now I ask you again whether or not you have had an opportunity to read this document, Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. JENKINS. I have.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document represents a fair statement and correct statement of the interview and of the facts stated therein?

Mr. JENKINS. Except for the first paragraph.

Mr. HUBERT. I noticed you made a little mark as to the third paragraph on page 1.

Mr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In which reference is made to your participation in the coverage of the President Kennedy tour with a certain David King of UPI, Dallas. I think it is as to that that you wish to address yourself?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What have you to say about that?

Mr. JENKINS. I have not associated, nor did I know David King or anyone by that name. In fact, I still don’t. At that time we did have a new editor by the name of Karl King, and he was our anchor man. He was the new man on the air at the time the assassination occurred.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he with UPI?

Mr. JENKINS. Following the assassination, he was relieved from KBOX and subsequently he went to work part time with UPI as an audio man. He is now employed as a newsman with WBAP Television in Fort Worth. This is the only Mr. King that I have had any close dealings with at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now other than that correction in Exhibit No. 1, have you any other corrections to make?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. About any part of it?

Mr. JENKINS. No corrections.

Mr. HUBERT. I do know, however, that on page 3 in the third paragraph apparently on the original, the name Robert Thompson has been scratched and the name James Robert Thornton has been written above that.

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is the name James Robert Thornton correct?

Mr. JENKINS. I do not know the man’s real name. I only know him by the name of Bob Thornton, and he is with FAA Radio, and I believe television too.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, it was not Robert Thompson?

Mr. JENKINS. No, sir; it was not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you state in Exhibit No. 1 that you saw Jack Ruby, I believe, on November 22 on the third floor of the Dallas police station between the hours of 5:30 to 7:30 p.m. Did you know Ruby prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him at all?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his existence?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now apparently later you identified Ruby as a man that you had seen on the third floor on November 22, and I ask you now how you identified the man that you saw on the 22d as Jack Ruby whom you did not know on the 22d?

Mr. JENKINS. I don’t think I ever have said that I saw him for sure and could identify him for sure. It was strictly by recall. I was able to see him in person, I believe it was, on the afternoon of the Oswald shooting. I think that was the 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him then?

Mr. JENKINS. Just outside Capt. Will Fritz’ office in the Dallas Police Department. He was being brought down from, I would suppose, the city jail, brought down the corridor past the gathering of newsmen, and I was one of the few who managed to just have been standing outside of Captain Fritz’ office door, and he passed within a few feet of me. He was very familiar, and the face was familiar, and it just seemed to me that I had seen the man on the Friday night previous. This was the first thing that struck me when I did see him, because I had not seen him following the Oswald shooting up until that moment.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a fact that immediately upon seeing him under the circumstances and the time and conditions that you stated, that you had the mental reaction that you had seen this man before?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that time associate him with the man you had seen on the 22d?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Immediately?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, it was a matter of a few minutes. I was trying to think where I had seen him before, and then it occurred to me that I had seen him in the hallway near the elevator shaft of the third floor on the evening of the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said also that you saw him later that Friday night at the time in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you were in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you did see a man whom you now think was Jack Ruby in that room?

Mr. JENKINS. I am quite sure it seemed to me it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him on the 24th under the conditions that you stated and after reflection, did you also think that the Jack Ruby you saw on the 24th was also the man you had seen in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. I was more sure than I was not that this was the same man, but again, I had not seen him before, and this was strictly by recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I am trying to probe your intellectual processes on the 24th, and as I gather it, on the 24th when you first saw him, your intellectual processes were that “I have seen this man,” and then upon searching your memory, you related it to the man you had seen on two different occasions on Friday, the 22d? That is to say, in the hall in the early part of the afternoon, and then later in the assembly room, is that correct?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that the man you saw earlier in the evening on the third floor was the same man that you saw in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that Jack Ruby was that man on both occasions?

Mr. JENKINS. In my opinion, it was the same man.

Mr. HUBERT. It might have been?

Mr. JENKINS. In my opinion, it was the same man; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed on the first occasion that you saw him? That is to say, the early part of the afternoon and evening?

Mr. JENKINS. The only thing that I can recall is that the man had on what could have been an overcoat or a topcoat. It was a long coat of some sort. It seemed it might have been of a brown or lighter brown or dark gray color, and it was definitely an overcoat. It seemed to be some sort of trench coat, or not a long coat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?

Mr. JENKINS. No hat.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his hair looked like?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he slightly bald?

Mr. JENKINS. I really don’t remember, except it was dark.

Mr. HUBERT. Slightly bald?

Mr. JENKINS. I can’t even positively recall at this moment whether I noticed whether it was slightly bald or not. I have had too many occasions to see Mr. Ruby since that time, and of course now implication of many pictures is entering in, so I can’t honestly say that I can recall exactly what he did look like that evening. But the facial features are the same.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you did see Ruby again after the 24th?

Mr. JENKINS. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that that was in the court?

Mr. JENKINS. In the trial, and in the hearing. Of course pictures in the paper many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it still your belief then from the other opportunities you had to see Ruby, that the man you saw on the two occasions on the 22d was Jack Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in regard to the first occasion, you stated in the document which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, that you thought you saw him between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. on the third floor of the Dallas City Jail. Can you tell us why you fix those times?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, at 5:30 I had made a report, a telephone report to the station on what was going on at the police station. I had arrived somewhere around 4 o’clock, and a local colleague was already there. I arrived with Jerry Gunkle, who was ordinarily an announcer, but he was filling in as a newsman because of the situation that afternoon. About 5:30 I made a report and asked what time it was, and was told it was 5:30, and the next time that I can recall realizing what time it was, was 7:30 in the evening, due to interviewing people, talking to police officers, trying to get stories, and trying to feed them either to the station or to my control hopper down there.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix this 7:30 hour?

Mr. JENKINS. The same reason. I called the station again and checked what time it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Now then, you think it was between those two time checks that you saw Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. I would not state it as a fact. I believe it was. I am not positive that it was between those two times, but those are the times that I do recall for that particular afternoon and evening.

Mr. HUBERT. You first went down at 4 o’clock?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So it could not have been earlier than 4?

Mr. JENKINS. No; it could not have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever leave the third floor? When did you leave the third floor?

Mr. JENKINS. I can’t give you an exact time. My reason for leaving the third floor was to go down to the basement assembly room to view Oswald. I believe it was after midnight, if I am not mistaken; it was after midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the third floor at any time during the period between 4 p.m. until you went down to the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I would ask you why it is that you have stated that you think it is between 5:30 and 7:30 that you saw Ruby there?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, it was earlier in the evening, I am quite sure of that, because I know I spent quite a few hours after 7:30 mainly in the auto theft department, which is just outside the pressroom, and in the pressroom itself. I was talking to officers there. I was doing some phone calling from in there. Most of the pressroom phones were busy all evening long, and I have some friends in the auto theft department. I don’t know them by name exactly, but I have had contact with them, and it turned out this became my best source of information as a newsman was just to more or less stay in there and make interoffice calls from time to time on their telephone. I found out I could find out more that way because there wasn’t a lot of commotion. It was close to Chief Curry’s office and the homicide office.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, there was quite a crowd on the third floor, as I understand?

Mr. JENKINS. It was packed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what Ruby was doing when you saw him?

Mr. JENKINS. The only thing I can recall is, he was talking to somebody. I would suppose a newsman, I don’t know. I don’t know who he was talking to.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything that directed your attention to him particularly?

Mr. JENKINS. Only that there were very few people around the elevator shaft. Most of them were gathered around the cameras that were set up right in the intersection, and then slightly past as you get off of the elevator, and most of the newsmen were just lined two and three deep down the hallway back toward the homicide department as you go left coming off the elevator, and also were gathered around the cameras there talking, and at that moment I was going by. There were only two people, this man who I believe to be Ruby, and another man, a taller man, and I can’t really describe what he looked like.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in uniform or civilian clothes?

Mr. JENKINS. No; in civilian clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the other man.

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; seems to me a dark suit, but everybody was wearing dark suits.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know who that was?

Mr. JENKINS. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How close to the elevator shaft was Ruby and the other man?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, they were along the wall near, I believe, the women’s restroom, about halfway from the elevator door to the corridor, to the cross corridor I mean. I would say probably about 7 feet, maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any policeman at that time guarding or checking identification at the elevator door or at the staircase?

Mr. JENKINS. No; not to my recollection. Of course I didn’t go down.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean when you saw Ruby talking to this other man or the man you believe to be talking to the other man, were there also policemen there?

Mr. JENKINS. Not in that immediate vicinity. Not that I recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the only time you saw him at the early part of the afternoon?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; that’s right. At the moment, I was on the way down to the snackbar to get a cup of coffee.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that help you fix the time?

Mr. JENKINS. I don’t think so; not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any supper that night?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I did. I had a hamburger. I had a cold one. It was left over from somewhere. Quite a few had been brought up, I think, and I was with Lieutenant May of the auto theft department, and he offered me a hamburger. This was considerably later. I would say probably 10 or 11 o’clock, I don’t know. And he offered me a hamburger, and it was left over, and I took it.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the snackbar?

Mr. JENKINS. It is as you go up into the third floor, go toward the Chief’s office and the dispatch office.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to leave the floor?

Mr. JENKINS. No; in fact, it was right beside that intersection which I have been telling you about.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came back from getting the coffee, did you observe Ruby there?

Mr. JENKINS. I didn’t look. I went straight back through. I was going back to talk to my colleagues to see if there was anything else they found out.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you had more than one cup of coffee that day?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; considerably more than one cup.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it dark when you saw him, do you know? Dark outside?

Mr. JENKINS. I couldn’t say. There was not a window in the area. I could not tie that in with any part of the observation.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s get at it this way. You came on at 4 o’clock?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have fixed the earliest time apparently that you could have seen him at 5:30, and the latest at 7:30, which seems that you saw him not sooner than an hour and a half after you came on, and not later than 3½ hours after you came on. Using these relative time measures, does that assist you in fixing the time? For example, would you be willing to state that you did not see Ruby sooner than an hour and a half after you came on duty?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I think definitely I would state that, because for about the first hour and a half, perhaps even 2 hours, I stayed primarily in the pressroom. I was doing the main part of phone reports to the station, because we had a phone and were trying to keep it, and also we were trying to keep a running account of what was happening. This is strictly now an estimate of time. As I say, I only recall asking the time twice, and I don’t ever recall looking at the clock or at my watch until about the time we were ready to go home. It seems like it was 1:15 or 1:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You say when you went to get the coffee it was after you had made the 5:30 check of time?

Mr. JENKINS. Oh, yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. How much after?

Mr. JENKINS. That would be next to impossible to say. It could have been half an hour or 45 minutes, perhaps.

Mr. HUBERT. And it could have been as long as 2 hours afterward, which would have fixed the time of seeing Ruby at 7:30?

Mr. JENKINS. Could have been; yes. I think it was before the 7:30 time, because it just seems like it was, as I remember, before the 7:30 check.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was sooner than 3½ hours after you came on duty?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I would say that is a safe estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. So that really, the best you can do for us in between 5:30 and 7:30, but you feel fairly certain that those limits at least are accurate?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that Ruby was not carrying anything when you saw him at the first occasion; right?

Mr. JENKINS. I don’t recall him carrying anything at all. I don’t remember anything in his hands, as a matter of fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Later that day you went to the press conference, whatever time that was?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were in the assembly room, did you see Jack Ruby in the assembly room?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw Jack Ruby in the assembly room, did you have the mental impression that you had seen that man earlier that day?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. It was only later that you related the two occasions that you saw the man you believed to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you saw Jack Ruby in the assembly room, you did not go through the mental process of saying, “Oh, this is the man I saw earlier”?

Mr. JENKINS. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he dressed differently at that time?

Mr. JENKINS. The man I saw then had on what appeared to be a checked sportcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat?

Mr. JENKINS. No that. I noticed he was rather light complexioned; and dark hair.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do or say anything that directed your attention to him?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes. The exact words, I don’t recall. I was stationed just inside the door behind the television camera, and this was in front of the cables and closer to the door than most of the newsmen, and I got there on purpose, because Pate and Kunkle were sitting on the floor directly in front of the desk where we figured Henry Wade was going to make his presentation, or whoever was going to speak about Oswald, and also was right in front of the lineup screen. So I stationed myself near the door so I could break first while they were getting tape recordings and interviews, whatever was necessary.

The room was not filled yet with newsmen, but that man whose remark caught my attention, was standing to my left and behind me on a table, and he had a small pad perhaps like a spiral pad in his hand, and there was a girl news correspondent--who she was or who she worked for, I don’t know--but he said something to the effect that “Come on up here with me, it will be easier for you to see what is going on. Come on up here. There is room. You won’t have to fight the crowd.” Something to this effect. I can’t give any direct quotes, because it was just something in passing, but I did notice him at the time, and it seems to me the man was smiling at the time and put his hand down to help the girl get up.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the man you believe to be Jack Ruby?

Mr. JENKINS. That is the man I believe to be Jack Ruby. In fact, I am more sure of this than of the first person whom I think was Jack Ruby. The image is a lot clearer in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything else?

Mr. JENKINS. Not after that. I heard nothing. Paid no more attention to him.

It was just a matter of 2 or 3 minutes before the entire room, front end especially, was jampacked with cameramen and newsmen.

Mr. HUBERT. This would have been when Oswald came?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes. This was before Oswald came in the room.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Jenkins, I don’t believe that there has been any conversation between us previous to the beginning of the recordation of this deposition which has not subsequently become a part of the deposition, isn’t that correct, sir?

Mr. JENKINS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. JENKINS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF SPEEDY JOHNSON

The testimony of Speedy Johnson was taken at 9 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Speedy Johnson. Mr. Johnson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Johnson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter request addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date upon that letter, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. The date on the letter, or the postmark on the envelope?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the date on the letter.

Mr. JOHNSON. June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. It asks you to appear on a date subsequent to that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Subsequent to that, which would be June 26, 1964, at 9:15 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. It turned out that you were out of the city, or that didn’t reach you in time for that deposition?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. As a matter of fact, you are right. It was forwarded to me three times.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are appearing here tonight by virtue of that letter?

Mr. JOHNSON. I called when I came back to my headquarters in Houston--Standby One--when I got back.

Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is this. Under the rules of the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before their deposition can be taken. That written notice was given to you a long time ago, but it specified a date different from today, you see.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So I want to ask you--the rules of the Commission also provide that a person may waive the written notice.

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. So assuming there is no written notice for you to appear today, assuming that the written notice of June 22 didn’t apply to today, I ask you if you are willing to waive the written notice and have your deposition taken now?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do now.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to waive it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you let me administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Now your name is?

Mr. JOHNSON. Speedy Johnson.

Mr. HUBERT. Speedy Johnson, I understand from what you have told me, sir, that that originally was a nickname?

Mr. JOHNSON. And since have legalized.

Mr. HUBERT. You since have legalized it in the State of Texas and the city of Dallas so that your actual name is Speedy Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. Now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. 708 Kipling, Houston, Tex., 77006.

Mr. HUBERT. You say to us that you are going to move, so that in case we want to reach you, you will be at another address?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us that address?

Mr. JOHNSON. 4300 Graustark, Houston, Tex., on Friday of this week, which will be the 16th, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. The 17th.

Mr. JOHNSON. 17th, yes, sir. The only reason for that is a matter of nicer living quarters and all that jazz.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the city of Dallas on November 23, 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation at that time, sir?

Mr. JOHNSON. Broker.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of broker?

Mr. JOHNSON. And manufacturers agent.

Mr. HUBERT. Broker for what product?

Mr. JOHNSON. For what product? I have 14 years been a broker for any kind of product so long as it was honest. Aircraft, more specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned----

Mr. JOHNSON. Manufacturers agent, a sideline.

Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the sidelines?

Mr. JOHNSON. Leather goods; artificial flowers; cutlery; and dishes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to November 23, 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. I met him one time prior to the 23d of November.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that, approximately? Was it a matter of months, or years?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir, months. June or July.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. JOHNSON. Of 1963, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?

Mr. JOHNSON. At his place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. JOHNSON. At the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you a guest there? That is to say, you were a paying customer or guest?

Mr. JOHNSON. Paying customer initially. Turned out he would not let me pay the bill. He paid the bill. In other words, it was $9 or $10, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the reason why he stated he would pay your bill?

Mr. JOHNSON. No reason. He didn’t give me any reason.

Mr. HUBERT. He just said you couldn’t pay and didn’t want to take your money?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there alone or with someone else?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I was by myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him while you were at the club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Very briefly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. JOHNSON. How long did I stay there?

Mr. HUBERT. At the club that night?

Mr. JOHNSON. Less than an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it seem odd to you that he wouldn’t let you pay in view of the fact that you hadn’t known him before and that you had not talked to him very much?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, simply because he met me at the door. He shook hands with me at the door and invited me to have a drink. As a matter of fact, took me to the table and he ordered a drink, but the lady brought it over. A lady, I don’t know who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. A waitress?

Mr. JOHNSON. The waitress brought the drink to the table. Then he came and sat at the table for perhaps 10 minutes, and that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Then when it came time to pay, the waitress wouldn’t accept your money, or what was the situation?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. When it came time to pay, when I got to the cash register, the lady at the cash register said, “No, it is already paid.”

Mr. HUBERT. You said something about $9 or $10?

Mr. JOHNSON. Less than $10. I don’t remember; that is a long time ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there about an hour, and how many drinks did you have?

Mr. JOHNSON. Two. But he had a cover charge and a floor show sort of charge thing. I don’t remember frankly what the costs were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually take out some money to pay him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I took out a $10 bill.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. Do I remember seeing the check?

Mr. HUBERT. Was the check brought over to you at the table?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sure. I carried the check from the table to the cash register, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw the check?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In what amount was the check for?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember. It was a little more than $9, but less than $10.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a couple of drinks and then there was the door charge, I think?

Mr. JOHNSON. Cover charge.

Mr. HUBERT. Cover charge?

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anything collected from you as you came in?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Do you remember the itemization of it?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the one time you saw him prior to November 23, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. November 23 being what?

Mr. HUBERT. The Saturday after the President was shot.

Mr. JOHNSON. Prior to November 23, negative.

Mr. HUBERT. You had seen him the one time you have described?

Mr. JOHNSON. That was the only time I ever seen him. I knew who he was, and that is the extent of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to see him on November 23, and where?

Mr. JOHNSON. Did I have occasion to see him; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I did see him, but you asked me if I had occasion to see him; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did see him? I didn’t mean anything by that.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did see him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us the circumstances under which you saw him, and where?

Mr. JOHNSON. The specific address?

Mr. HUBERT. If you don’t know the address, we understand that. Just tell us where the place was.

Mr. JOHNSON. OK; on Saturday afternoon about 1:10 or 1:15 or 1:20, the time I cannot be precise about, at Sol’s Turf Bar, and Jesus Christ, I think it is in the 1200 block or the 1300 block or something on Commerce, but it is across the street from the Dallas Power & Light Co. That would substantiate it. That would isolate it; I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him in there?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was having----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby on that occasion?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you with anyone?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. JOHNSON. I was with Charles Busby and I was with Ivan.

Mr. HUBERT. Ivan Monday?

Mr. JOHNSON. Monday, yes; and a couple of other fellows. I can’t remember at this point who they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Tom Apple?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there?

Mr. JOHNSON. He came in.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went into that place at approximately 1:10 or 1:15; about then?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You went in with Monday?

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t go in with him, but he had just gotten there when I got there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Frank Bellocchio?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there, or did he come in?

Mr. JOHNSON. He came in.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the three of you were together?

Mr. JOHNSON. Three or four.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you in the bar?

Mr. JOHNSON. Where were we in the bar?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we were sitting up at the front end of the bar, which makes a sharp L turn, and I was sitting in the L.

Mr. HUBERT. In the angle?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened as to seeing Jack Ruby on that occasion.

Mr. JOHNSON. Standby One [holding up hand].

Mr. HUBERT. Sir; we can’t do that. It must go on the record anyhow. If there is anything that is bothering you----

Mr. JOHNSON. This has nothing to do with it, or maybe it does. OK; fine.

On a day which I cannot remember, there was published in the Dallas Morning News a full-page ad signed by some man’s name. Whose name, I cannot remember. An open letter to the President.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. JOHNSON. In which that full-page ad said 11 things, answers for us, or words to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the name Bernard Weissman, as you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the ad you were talking about?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is the ad I was talking about.

Mr. HUBERT. Now go ahead.

Mr. JOHNSON. All right. As we sat there having a sandwich and a beer, a dentist from upstairs came walking through and stopped behind us. There were four or five of us, Charlie Busby--well, I have mentioned the names. And he heard us talking.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the dentist?

Mr. JOHNSON. At the moment; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You do know he was a dentist, though?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I will tell you why in a minute. As we sat talking about the ad that had appeared in the paper, the subsequent assassination of the President the day before, and that sort of thing, the dentist came--he may have been a technician--I think he is a dentist--I am positive he is a dentist, but anyway, he came walking through and stopped and stood behind us and overheard the conversation, and he said, “Hey, I know what you fellows are talking about.” And reached up in his smock pocket and pulled out a piece of paper and handed it to me.

I was sitting in the middle of the conversation, so he handed it to me. I unfolded it and discovered it that it was the full-page ad that we were discussing, so I spread it out pretty neatly on the top of the bar as we sat there eating a sandwich and drinking a beer. While we were sitting discussing the ad and its merits and what would happen to it, and who the fellow was that had run the ad, I then heard somebody over my right shoulder say, “Jesus Christ, I have just been down to the Dallas Morning News office and there is no such bastard involved. There is no address in Dallas, and ain’t no such person.”

Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?

Mr. JOHNSON. At that moment, I did not know. And looked around over my shoulder and saw a man standing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that man?

Mr. JOHNSON. That man was the man whom I recognized later by photographs and personal appearance as Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not recognize him on that occasion as Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You recognized him then from the previous time you had seen him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your recognition of him was not based on subsequent pictures you saw of him?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I saw him then. I wasn’t real positive. I was not real positive that it was he. The reason for it being that when I had seen him before, he did not wear spectacles. When I saw him then, he did have on hornrim glasses.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody else in your group seem to know him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. JOHNSON. Ivan spoke to him, and Charlie Busby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they speak in such a way as to indicate that they knew him, or simply they were replying to his remarks?

Mr. JOHNSON. They were replying to his remarks.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather anything from them at that time or later that they knew him prior to that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Negative.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did he show you a Polaroid photograph on that occasion?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What were they of; do you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us, please.

Mr. JOHNSON. He indicated that he had just returned from the Dallas Morning News office and had discovered that there was no such person registered or had paid for the ad that we were discussing, and he had just returned from the Northwest Highway on Loop 12, is what I am trying to say, where he had taken some Polaroid pictures of a sign that was out there. As a matter of fact, he had taken two or three pictures. I can’t remember whether it was two or three.

Mr. HUBERT. He indicated that he just returned from doing that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. On that morning?

Mr. JOHNSON. That morning; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This was in the early afternoon; this meeting with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. This was at that time about 2 o’clock, I would suggest.

Mr. HUBERT. He said that he had taken those pictures earlier that morning?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is what he said; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Those pictures, I think, were pictures of a billboard calling for the impeachment of Earl Warren, the Chief Justice?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general mood or appearance? Was it that of excitement, or was he calm, or nervous, or overwrought, or what?

Mr. JOHNSON. That is like asking a hen in a henhouse would he want to lay or not. He was excited to the point of cursing a little.

Mr. HUBERT. What manifestation of excitement did he give?

Mr. JOHNSON. To the point of being a b-o-r-e, bore. And we turned our conversation between the group of us to disregard him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to make any connection between the shooting of the President to the Bernard Weissman ad and the impeach Earl Warren sign of which he had photographs?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What connection did he make?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he said, “We ought to shoot all them son-of-a-bitches.”

Mr. HUBERT. Shoot who? Whom was he referring to when he said that, as much as you could gather?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, with a photograph in his hand, the one that he had taken with a Polaroid, as he showed them to us.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was referring to the people who were responsible for those ads and for posting that sign and for killing the President?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say that again?

Mr. HUBERT. It was his remark that all of those people should be killed? Did that relate to the people that published the Bernard Weissman ad only, as much as you could tell?

Mr. JOHNSON. As much as I could tell; no, sir. “We ought to kill the s.o.b.’s, Warren, and the people that Warren stands for,” was his tenor.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you gathered from Ruby that he was in favor of the poster which called for the impeachment of Earl Warren?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; directly opposite. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in favor of?

Mr. JOHNSON. Of shooting Warren; or impeaching Warren, or something.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was trying to get out.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; I misunderstood you.

Mr. HUBERT. What you could gather, Ruby was in favor of what the sign advocated?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; that, and the ad in the paper and what had happened the day before.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he agree with the ad in the paper?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, what had he told you about going to the press to talk to them?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?

Mr. HUBERT. What had he told you about going to the paper and talking to them about the ad?

Mr. JOHNSON. While he was standing there talking to us over my right shoulder, he told me that, or told us, all of us, that he had been down there and had talked to them, to the editorial staff and everything else.

Mr. HUBERT. What about?

Mr. JOHNSON. About getting rid of the gang in Washington.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say to you that he had gone down there to remonstrate with the editor for taking such an ad?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; he talked about it, and we didn’t listen.

Mr. HUBERT. Why would he be fussing, as it were, with the newspaper for taking the ad, if he agreed with it?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t have any idea. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But your impression was that he had, that he said that he had gone down to find out why the newspaper had taken such an ad?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But also your impression was, he agreed with it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression also that he agreed with the people who wanted to impeach Earl Warren?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be incensed at the criticism of President Kennedy, or to the contrary?

Mr. JOHNSON. Say again?

Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be angry of this criticism of President Kennedy, or to the contrary?

Mr. JOHNSON. I very frankly didn’t hear him say too much about Kennedy one way or the other, other than he indicated that he felt that it was a malpractice of, what shall we say----

Mr. HUBERT. News ethics, or something of that sort?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; and the police protection here, that he should have been assassinated here.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he seemed to be ashamed of the fact that the President had been shot here?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Yet your impression was that he agreed with the criticism of the President?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to connect the, or mention anything about the possibility that the killing of the President might reflect on the Jewish community?

Mr. JOHNSON. To us or to me that afternoon; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to the general effect that he was aware about how the assassination of President Kennedy might affect business in Dallas, and more particularly his own business?

Mr. JOHNSON. That I can remember; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Tom Apple left at anytime so he might not have heard all this conversation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Negative. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed at one time by FBI Agent Paul L. Scott on December 6, 1963. Do you remember that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to show you a document which purports to be a report of that interview made by Scott, and I am marking it for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Speedy Johnson.”

I am marking my name, writing my name below that. It consists of one page only. I would like you to read it, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON (reads Exhibit No. 1).

Mr. HUBERT. Now does that represent a fair report and correct report of the interview that you had with this FBI Agent Scott?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This indicates that FBI Agent Scott got the impression from you when he interviewed you that you did not know Ruby at the time.

Mr. JOHNSON. I didn’t know him. I still don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well it----

Mr. JOHNSON. As I told initially I had.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, this says that you said that you had not seen Jack Ruby prior to this time, prior to this occasion on November 23, and I take it that you want to correct that statement so that it would reflect that you had seen him on the one previous occasion we were speaking of?

Mr. JOHNSON. On the one previous occasion; yes, sir, but that was a long time before that.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, this document which is Exhibit No. 1, is not correct when it says that you said you had not seen Jack Ruby prior to this time.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, if we go back to infinity, really.

Mr. HUBERT. All I am asking is, this statement seems to contain something that is contradictory to something you said awhile ago, and I am just trying to see which is right.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had met him only one time before, a number of years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, this statement also says that the individual talking about Ruby made other remarks, the exact nature not recalled, indicating that he was highly incensed at the criticism of President Kennedy.

Mr. JOHNSON. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, this statement is correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir; that is what I told him.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Johnson, is there anything else you wish to add?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir; that is all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think that there has been anything that has passed between us here today that has not been reported by the stenographer?

Mr. JOHNSON. Very good.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Glad you came in.

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF ROY E. STANDIFER

The testimony of Roy E. Standifer was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Detective Roy E. Standifer. Mr. Standifer, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Standifer, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Standifer, I think you appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, in which he requested that certain members of the police department appear to have their deposition taken.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has a right to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, which in this case has not occurred.

But the rules also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice and testify without it.

Therefore I ask you if you are willing to waive notice and testify now?

Mr. STANDIFER. I will.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STANDIFER. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name.

Mr. STANDIFER. Roy E. Standifer.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address?

Mr. STANDIFER. 550 Wildrose Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. STANDIFER. Detective, police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. STANDIFER. Little better than 19 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. STANDIFER. Forty-four.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation before that?

Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, they have been numerous. I was a construction foreman for a fence company for 5 years. Owned a cafe at one time. Aircraft worker shortly before the war or during the war.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that most of your adult life has been in the police department?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you a document consisting of two pages, although the second page is only about a quarter of it occupied with any typing, which purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Paul L. Scott, taken on January 13, 1964.

For the purpose of identification, I have marked that document as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have put the following words, “Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Roy E. Standifer,” under which I have signed my name.

And on the second page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

I think you have had an opportunity a moment ago to read this exhibit, have you not?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Which exhibit contains, so far as you know, a correct statement and account of the interview to which it refers?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that the statements made therein by you as recalled by the FBI agent are correct?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you did know Jack Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. I did know Jack Ruby; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. For approximately 13 years?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How well did you know him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Not too well, really. Only on a professional matter or business dealings. I never was in his place of business socially. I don’t drink, I don’t dance, and I don’t have any business around his place.

Mr. HUBERT. About how many times during the past 13 years do you suppose you met Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. I recall twice in his place of business. Once in the Silver Spur on South Ervay, and once at the Vegas Club on Oaklawn, and maybe 3 or 4 times at the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. The two times that you saw him at the club would have been some years ago?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix any point of time for the three or four times that you saw him at the city hall?

Mr. STANDIFER. The only time that I remember was on the night that the President had been killed. I believe that was on a Friday, was it not?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; the 22d. But you say you did see him at the city hall two or three times other than on that occasion?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, but I have no idea on what dates. He comes down quite often, I understand, visiting officers, and I have seen him just to speak to him or wave at him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you undertake an estimate of the time you saw him last prior to November 22?

Mr. STANDIFER. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be more than a year?

Mr. STANDIFER. More than a year. I would say 3 or 4 years.

Mr. HUBERT. You state in the document identified as Exhibit No. 1 that Ruby was well known among the police officers.

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you elaborate on that as to how you know that to be a fact?

Mr. STANDIFER. By hearing the officers in my division talk, that they had talked to him, and on one occasion prior to the assassination of President Kennedy he was interested in installing a safe, and he had talked to one or two of the officers in our bureau who are familiar with the installation or placement of safes.

He called our office. I am the desk officer. I answered the phone most often. He talked to me asking if I could send a detective to him to show him what would be the best location to install this safe.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that telephone conversation?

Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, that was probably a month before the assassination. I am not real clear on that. I believe he asked for Detective Joe Cody by name, as Joe is familiar with safes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. I told him I would try to locate Joe, or would give him a message that he wanted to talk to him about that safe.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do so?

Mr. STANDIFER. I wrote a note on an office memo and put in each detective’s box when something comes in like that, and I am sure I wrote a note.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Cody contacted him?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what opinion, generally, the members of the police department had of Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. Oh, I think maybe they was friendly toward him and they would visit him down to his place for a drink, I understand.

Maybe they would go down there and drink with him occasionally. I don’t know. I have never been there with any of them, and I don’t know that to be a fact. In all probability, that is what would take place.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand you did see him on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department on the night of November 22, 1963?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any question about your recognition of him?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say, and what did you say?

Mr. STANDIFER. I just spoke to him and said, “Hi, Jack,” and he said, “Hi, Sandy.”

A lot of times he called me Sandy. I guess it is short for Standifer, I don’t know.

There were three or four other detectives around the door. We had our door blocked off to keep the press from using our phones. We had another detective stationed at the door to keep them out, and he knew Ruby and they were talking, of course, and all the noise, and I don’t have any idea what they said. I didn’t solicit conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. But so far as your conversation with him was concerned, it was just an exchange of greetings?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does anybody else call you Sandy?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what officer it was he seemed to be engaged in conversation with?

Mr. STANDIFER. Lieutenant Leonard, and Detective Cal Jones.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you observe him speaking to those gentlemen?

Mr. STANDIFER. No more than 2 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the same occasion that you greeted him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, simultaneously.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of your seeing him?

Mr. STANDIFER. Roughly, 7:30 or 8 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix it? Because it would be helpful for us to have in the record what that estimate is based on.

Mr. STANDIFER. I know that it was after dark, and I believe along about then darkness set in about 6 or 6:30 that time of year, and I know it was possibly an hour after dark.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had you come on duty?

Mr. STANDIFER. 2:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you had supper that night?

Mr. STANDIFER. 6:30.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. STANDIFER. I always eat at 6:30. I bring my sack and I eat right in my own office. I never leave the office.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a rather fixed habit that you do eat at 6:30?

Mr. STANDIFER. Fixed habit. You could set your clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that you did eat this day at 6:30?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had eaten did you see Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. Probably thirty minutes after I came back to my desk I noticed that there was someone standing at the door there, several persons backed up against it, and in our office I was just milling back and forth from my desk to the door.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is that time that you saw Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This is on Friday, November 22?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All this was on the third floor, as a matter of fact, just outside your office, which is the burglary and theft division?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that office near Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. STANDIFER. Directly across the hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby near or by Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir. Where he went when he left, I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not see him again that day?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him prior to that time on that day?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on either the 23d or the 24th at any time, of November?

Mr. STANDIFER. I saw his derby hat on the 24th on television. I was watching television when it occurred.

Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from that, you were not on duty on the 24th?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on the 23d?

Mr. STANDIFER. That Saturday; no, sir. I am off Saturday and Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed when you saw him?

Mr. STANDIFER. The only thing I could remember, and I am vague about that, I believe he had on a white shirt. He was sleeveless, I believe. I don’t believe he even had on a coat. I am not sure. That is how little attention I paid to him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt in your mind it was Jack Ruby?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you address him first, or he address you first?

Mr. STANDIFER. I don’t remember, I sure don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. But you in any case used the words, “Hi, Jack”?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him do anything else or say anything else? You have already covered the conversation with the two officers?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him passing out any cards to anyone?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you wonder why he was there?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; it never entered my mind. I figured he was curious like most other people.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of an identification system that was being used to preclude people from coming to the third floor other than authorized news media?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I had no enforcement on that end of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn’t speaking so much of enforcement, but as to whether or not you knew that only police personnel and news media were supposed to be up there, if that is the case?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know about it?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir; I know that the hall was so congested with news media and cameras and recording equipment that I had to send three detectives to the basement to work out our official police business from the jail office rather than the routine coming and going of prisoners and people who wished to come into our office to make a complaint. It was impossible for them to get through.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any identification system being used by the elevators or other means of entry to the third floor of checking?

Mr. STANDIFER. All I know is I had occasion to make one or two trips down to the jail office or to the records bureau, and when I would come back off of the elevator, there would be a reserve officer, I believe, and a uniformed officer.

Of course when the door would open from the elevator, they would be standing there, and they would just give me a casual glance. I knew that they recognized me right off, but I was never challenged or anyone around me was never challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. But you knew that they were there for a purpose?

Mr. STANDIFER. Now whether they were keeping unauthorized personnel out, I don’t know. It was never mentioned to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now this checking situation at the elevator that you just mentioned was on Friday, November the 22d?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go off duty that day?

Mr. STANDIFER. They kept us over an hour. I went off at 12. We are originally due off at 11 p.m., but our captain asked everybody on duty that night to stay an extra hour to see if we could assist anyone. We stayed until 12.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to go to the assembly room when Oswald was brought in front of the press?

Mr. STANDIFER. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, do you have anything else you wish to say?

Mr. STANDIFER. One thing I might add that wasn’t in that interview by Mr. Scott. Maybe it was 5:30 or 6 o’clock, Charlie Brown, the FBI agent, brought Mama Oswald and a young fellow who was identified to me as Oswald’s brother, into our office and asked if they could be put into an interrogation room where it was private, and I told him “Yes,” and we showed him the room that he could put them in.

And he asked me if I would get them some coffee. The coffee canteen is just down the hall a little bit from Captain Fritz’ office. I went to the canteen and brought him and her both back a cup of coffee.

The young fellow said, “You are most kind.” And that is the only conversation we had.

Mr. HUBERT. They made no further comments to you at all except to thank you, as it were, for bringing the coffee?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now I don’t think there has been any conversation between us this morning or at anytime for that matter, which has not been made a part of this deposition by the reporter; is that correct?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. STANDIFER. That is all right. I am happy to help. If I can help you further, call me.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask just one more question. I think, Mr. Standifer, you said that you are most certain about the time that you saw Ruby, because you related it to the time of having your supper, which you said you had in your office and that it is your custom to do so?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you also used a phrase that that custom is so well established that people could set their clocks by it; is that correct?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. That has been your habit for quite a number of years?

Mr. STANDIFER. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. And has always been at 6:30?

Mr. STANDIFER. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw Ruby about a half hour after beginning to eat your supper?

Mr. STANDIFER. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.

AFFIDAVIT OF ROGER C. WARNER

The following affidavit was executed by Roger C. Warner on August 4, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

My name is Roger C. Warner. I am employed as a Special Agent for the United States Secret Service at Dallas, Texas. I was employed in this position on Nov. 24, 1963. The following is a statement regarding my interview of Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin, aka Little Lynn, on November 24, 1963, and is true and correct to the best of my knowledge:

On November 24, 1963 at the request of Inspector Thomas Kelley, U.S. Secret Service, I met with Karen Lynn Bennett Carlin at 3809 Middlebrook Drive, Ft. Worth, Texas. The time was about 11:00 P.M. Also present at the interview was Bruce Ray Carlin, who was identified by Mrs. Carlin as her husband. Mrs. Carlin related to me facts regarding a $25 money order sent to her by Jack Ruby on 11-24-63. She also related to me the fact that she had learned that Mr. Dewar, once employed by Jack Ruby, had seen Lee Harvey Oswald in Ruby’s night club, the Carousel. Mrs. Carlin stated that she had also vaguely remembered Oswald being at the club, but was by no means sure of that fact, nor of the fact that she had ever seen Oswald.

At the beginning of the above interview Mrs. Carlin was highly agitated and was reluctant to make any statement to me. She stated to me that she was under the impression that Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy and that she would be killed if she gave any information to the authorities. It was only through the aid of her husband that she would give any information at all. She twisted in her chair, stammered in her speech, and seemed on the point of hysteria.

Later, toward the end of the interview, which lasted about 45 minutes, Mrs. Carlin became much calmer. She stated that she had no memory of Oswald whatsoever until she had heard Mr. Dewar’s statement repeated on television. Also that she had no information in her possession which indicated that Ruby was involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy. She did ask that all information she had related be kept confidential to prevent retaliation against her in case there was a plot afoot. She stated that she did not wish to get involved in the matter at hand.

The information related by Mrs. Carlin was reported by me in a Memorandum Report dated December 12, 1963, from notes I had taken during the interview.

Signed this 4th day of August 1964.

(S) Roger C. Warner, ROGER C. WARNER.

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE V. MEYERS

The testimony of Lawrence V. Meyers was taken at 1:45 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself to you. My name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our practice before asking the witness to be sworn and taking his testimony to give a brief explanation of what the basis for our questioning will be and what generally we intend to go into. As you probably know, the Commission on the assassination was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Now, under those two official acts the Commission has been directed to investigate into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then to evaluate those facts and report back to President Johnson on the facts that we find.

We have asked you to come here today in particular, Mr. Meyers, because you have known Jack Ruby for some time and you had occasion to talk to him both shortly before the assassination and shortly afterwards, and before he--that is, Ruby, shot Oswald. Under the rules of the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition. Also under these rules you are entitled to receive 3 days’ written notice before being required to testify. I believe that in this case we telephoned you late last week and although a letter was sent to your home which was probably received today----

Mr. MEYERS. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday. You have not--we have not actually complied with the 3-day notice requirement, and I will ask you at this point if you are willing to waive that requirement and go forward with the testimony?

Mr. MEYERS. Of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me before we proceed?

Mr. MEYERS. No. I am assuming everything you say--obviously everything you say is a fact and you will want me to give you whatever information I have to give you, and I will be very pleased to do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Let me ask you, then, to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MEYERS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name.

Mr. MEYERS. Lawrence V. Meyers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where do you presently live, Mr. Meyers?

Mr. MEYERS. 3950 North Lakeshore Drive, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at the time the President was assassinated?

Mr. MEYERS. Same address.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is your employer?

Mr. MEYERS. The name of my present employers is Farber Bros., Inc.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business is that?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, it is sort of a diversified business. They are basically manufacturers of automobile seat covers, hassocks, decorated pillows, and I am putting them in the sporting goods business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are their offices located?

Mr. MEYERS. Memphis, Tenn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the assassination of the President, by whom were you employed?

Mr. MEYERS. Ero Manufacturing Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were they located?

Mr. MEYERS. Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of business were they in?

Mr. MEYERS. Same. They are, literally, directly competitors of each other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your general line of work is for Farber Bros.?

Mr. MEYERS. I am the sales manager.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And at the time of the assassination, what sort of work were you doing for Ero Manufacturing?

Mr. MEYERS. Same thing. Sales manager of Ero.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, when were you born?

Mr. MEYERS. When was I born?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. December 16, 1910.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where was that?

Mr. MEYERS. New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in the Chicago area?

Mr. MEYERS. Since 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been in the same line of work, generally, since that time?

Mr. MEYERS. More or less. I have been in selling all of my life, various items, different products, but it has always been selling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?

Mr. MEYERS. We have three children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the ages of your children?

Mr. MEYERS. Certainly. We have a son named Ralph, who is 27, a daughter named Vicki, who is 26, and a son named David, who is 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how you happened to first meet him?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, I met Jack Ruby originally, I would venture to say--now, I am guessing, it could vary a little bit--possibly 6 years ago, 6 or 7 years ago in that area, in the Carousel, in the club that he owned in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to him by a common acquaintance?

Mr. MEYERS. No, no. What actually happened is--how much detail do you want me to go into?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give it to us generally and if that is not enough----

Mr. MEYERS. Yes. Of course if I go into greater detail--I was there on a business trip and footloose and fancy free and I wandered into his club this particular night. He greeted me at the door. I knew from his conversation, his diction, that he was not a Dallasite, a Texan. We talked, one thing led to another. He told me he was originally from Chicago and I, at that time, of course, lived in Chicago. So we had a happy meeting ground. We were both Chicagoans and we visited with each other the first time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned this was 6 or 7 years ago?

Mr. MEYERS. In that area. I am not exactly certain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that Mr. Ruby actually opened the Carousel Club in 1960.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, then, that is when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is clear in your mind that you met him at the Carousel?

Mr. MEYERS. At the Carousel. There is no question about this. You must understand one thing, Mr. Griffin. I guess I sound stupid in telling this. But I travel incessantly, as you know from trying to find me at various times, and sometimes I do lose track of time. Things get not necessarily vague, but they get mixed up in context.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that and, of course, I asked you that second question to clarify what was the most significant fact that fixes the time.

Mr. MEYERS. The most significant fact is that my original meeting with Jack was at the Carousel. It could have been 4 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since the time you first met him at the Carousel Club and up until the time President Kennedy was assassinated, give us your best estimate of how many times you saw him?

Mr. MEYERS. Here again it would be a sheer guess, but I would say 20, 25 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any business dealings with him?

Mr. MEYERS. Actual business dealings?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk business with him?

Mr. MEYERS. His business primarily, not my business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of these conversations?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, his problems in trying to become successful, his problems with his competitors.

Why don’t I say it this way, Mr. Griffin. I think to a degree he used me as a sounding board as to what action and what means to take to increase his business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some specific examples of particular things that he talked with you about and advice that he might have asked you for?

Mr. MEYERS. You mean businesswise?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, for example, there were two competitors, there are and were, I should say, two competitors in Dallas named Weinstein. These were two brothers. There were two brothers in Dallas named Abe and Barney Weinstein who also ran the same type of operation, should we call them striptease places or strippers or whatever you want to call them, nightclubs if you want to glamorize them, and Jack--well, I am going to get into specifics now with what I think of Jack. Is that all right with you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We would like to hear that; yes, sir.

Mr. MEYERS. Jack, to me, always gave me the impression of being--that he always thought he was being taken advantage of. He never felt that he had as much of a share of prosperity as anybody else, as many other people. His complaint primarily to me against these Weinsteins was an operation that they would call audition nights in Dallas, in these clubs. The audition night evidently was a special night where, oh, three or four or five different girls would come in. Some of them were experienced strippers who worked for that fee for that night. Others were actually amateurs, I guess, who had the dreams of being artists. Well, we will use that word.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many different times would you estimate that Jack talked to you about the amateur nights that the Weinsteins were running?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, this is quite a few times. Quite a few times. As a matter of fact, as I told you, I had seen Jack, I don’t know, I say 20, 25--it could be 30, 35 times. I really don’t know. And in the last year or so he was very vehement about this thing, about the proceedings that he had taken, the things that he had tried to do. I will get into that if you want me to.

Also he would mention this to me many times in one night. This was one of his--of course, this all goes back to prior to the tragedy in Dallas now. It seems that he resented the fact that the union, I don’t know what the name of it was, AGVA or Actors Equity or something, had forbidden these amateur nights and he, in compliance with the union rules, had discontinued them.

However, his competitors had not discontinued them. And he was trying to use--I suppose you would call it--legal methods, through the union officials, to try to get them to discontinue these things, because he felt they were hurting his business for these particular nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever ask you to give him any assistance in those problems?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes; he did. He asked me if I knew these various union officials. I don’t even remember their names. Obviously, I didn’t know them. I had no contact with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination was the most recent time that he asked you to give him any assistance?

Mr. MEYERS. The day before. Now, when you say the assassination, you are speaking of the assassination of the President?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. MEYERS. Thursday, the 21st. Is that correct? Was the 22d Friday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did he ever talk to you about a man in Chicago named Barney Baker?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t remember. The name doesn’t ring any bells. There was a Leo somebody or other that he talked to me about who either lived in California or New York. I don’t even remember. Maybe if you mention other names that might ring a bell. I don’t know. Baker doesn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did he talk to you about besides his problems with AGVA, with the amateur stripper nights, and the Weinsteins.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, what else did we talk about? Women. He is quite a physical culture faddist, or at least he was. I don’t know whether he still is. And one of the items that my company manufactured were barbells, and I got him a set of barbells. We had a plant, Ero had, still has for that matter, a plant in McKinney, Tex., which is some 30 miles north of Dallas. So I got him a set of barbells for exercise. He used to spend a lot of time I guess at the YMCA or something of this type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any of his business promotions?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, yes; to this extent. He remodeled the club. He built runways out into the audience. Of course, he was very proud of this, I assume like any businessman would, what he considered progress. He wanted to know what my opinion was. What are you going to say? Great, fine. Doing business? Wonderful!

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotions other than his nightclubs?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes; he had a gimmick, I don’t know what the heck to call it, some sort of a twistboard, I guess, for the want of a better word. It is a thing that you stand on and you maneuver back and forth to--I guess it was a body developer of some kind. He wanted to know first whether I would be interested in merchandising it because my company was in this field. Second, the last time I saw him face to face he wanted to know whether my brother would be interested in handling this as a premium item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. MEYERS. That was Thursday, the 21st.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet his friend, Ralph Paul?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet his roommate, George Senator?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you meet George Senator?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, here again it would go back to shortly after I met Jack, and I met him and talked to him, oh, I don’t know, half a dozen times since that occasion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever discuss with you any political views that he had?

Mr. MEYERS. No; never got involved in any of that kind of thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk about President Kennedy?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he talk about President Kennedy to you?

Mr. MEYERS. Here again I am guessing. I guess shortly after Kennedy was elected. Shortly after--when was Kennedy elected, in 1960?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t know. Somewhere in 1961, 1962. We discussed it a number of times, as a matter of fact. I guess the best way to say it is he worshipped Kennedy and his family. He sort of made--maybe it was a father complex, father image or the family that he wished he had himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything specific that he said about President Kennedy?

Mr. MEYERS. No; just generalities. Other than the fact that he thought that John F. Kennedy was possibly the greatest man that ever lived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this topic happen to be brought up?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, I don’t know, Mr. Griffin. I don’t know. We could have been talking about something that Kennedy had done at that time or--I don’t know. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the many times that you were at the Carousel Club, did you ever see a man there who resembled Lee Oswald?

Mr. MEYERS. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to pick up now your contacts with Jack Ruby after the 26th of September. Do you recall the first time that you would have seen him after that time?

Mr. MEYERS. I couldn’t. It would be so difficult. I would have to go back through my traveling records to seen when I was in Dallas. Now, I could have seen him, and I repeat, I don’t remember. I could have seen him once or twice between the 26th of September--I don’t know why you chose that date, I assume you have your reasons--and the 21st of November, but I frankly have no recollection of it. It just wasn’t that important enough to me to make any--you know, to have any memory of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you happen to attend the Texas State Fair at any time?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack Ruby at that time?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this in the fall of 1963?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, golly, I suppose so. What were the dates of the fair?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember being at the Texas State Fair?

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the fall of 1963?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, now, you have me at a disadvantage. I remember distinctly being at the Texas State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times have you been at the fair?

Mr. MEYERS. Once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that occasion.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, this was an unusual occasion. I was at Jack’s club. Here, I don’t remember the night. I have no recollection of the date, and he introduced me to one of his employees, one of his dancers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who that was?

Mr. MEYERS. Joy, Joyce, something like that. The name was either Joy or Joyce. I have no recollection of the last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Joyce McDonald?

Mr. MEYERS. The last name would mean absolutely nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Joy Dale?

Mr. MEYERS. That is the girl. The Dale name brought back the name. That was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. MEYERS. A tall blonde. Well, what happened, he introduced me to her in his club that evening and we talked about various things and among the things we talked about--gee, this all comes back to me now--she was working during the day at the Texas State Fair for a concession who were demonstrating the methods they used to make a movie or make a motion picture, and according to--I am sorry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a show by the name of “How Hollywood Makes Movies?”

Mr. MEYERS. It could have been. I don’t know. It had to do with breakaway chairs and--I never saw the show. Let me tell you this right now. And you will appreciate why, when I get to the rest.

She told me that these fellows had a very good thing going. It was going to make a lot of money, blah, blah, and so on and so forth. But they were going to be closed up the next day or the day after due to the fact that they were unable to pay either the rent for the tent that they were in or some of their help who was going to quit on them the next day. I don’t remember. Something of this type. And the question arose whether I could help them get over this period and I asked them what would be involved and she said, I think she said, $200. I am not sure. Well, it so happened that that next day I had to go back to Chicago, I believe. So I said, well, Joy, I will tell you what I will do. If this thing is as good as you say it is, I have thrown $200 down the drain a number of times, and maybe I can do some good with this $200. So I said what time will you be out there the next day, and she said she would be there--now here again I am guessing, I don’t remember the hours--but it was afternoon, somewhere about 2 o’clock or something, and I said, well, I will tell you, I am going to--I think I have reservations on the 4 o’clock flight or something like that to go back to Chicago. I said, I will run out there and I will look at this thing and if it looks anywhere near what it should be, I will stake you to this money. And I did.

I went out there and--as a matter of fact, I got there before she did. She was late. And she introduced me to two men whose names I absolutely cannot remember who were running this concession and we talked a little while. We had some coffee at a little coffee stand right near there. And it seemed that they needed $200 to get over this thing. So I said to Joy, I will tell you what I will do. I will give you a check for $200, and if I remember, I think I made the check out to Jack Ruby. I don’t remember. I said, I will give you this check for $200 and you go ahead and get them over the hump and in time, you will see me sometime around the country, or they will, blah, blah, and all kinds of thank you’s were said and I gave them the check. She said where should she cash the check. I said give the check to Jack. He knows me well enough. I am sure he will know where to cash it. I am sure she did. That is how I got the check back. I hear since he never got the $200, that Jack had loaned them $100 and he took $100 of this $200 for himself to pay himself back, and I think she took the other hundred because as I have the story, one of her children had perhaps some--had to have some medical treatments and minor surgery, or something. So again I had thrown $200 down the drain. That is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the next time that you saw Jack Ruby after that episode?

Mr. MEYERS. If you will tell me the day that this happened--evidently you have this information. If you will tell me when this happened it might bring it back a little.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This probably would have been in the first two weeks of October.

Mr. MEYERS. First 2 weeks of October?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of 1963.

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t know. I am guessing again. I suppose the next time was the middle of November, the latter part of November, unless I had occasion to go to Dallas sooner than that, I really don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned seeing Jack Ruby on Thursday night, November 21.

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to make contact with him?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, here again I am trying to get--I am trying to remember this, and I don’t know whether I am right or wrong, but I guess this is the way it happened. My brother lives in Brooklyn and my brother is a Pepsi Cola distributor, and that particular week they were having a bottlers convention in Dallas and my brother and his wife attended this convention. They were staying at the Adolphus Hotel. I was staying at the Cabana Motel. I think what happened is that I had called my brother earlier during the day at the Adolphus and was told that he was out at a dinner or something, so gathering that the convention had, and that he would--well, let me remember this. No; I talked to him. That was it. I talked to Eddie and I asked he and Thelma to have dinner with me that night and Eddie said he couldn’t have dinner with me that night. He had to go--he and Thelma had to go to this party that was set up by some convention thing. But that he thought he would be through with that about 11 o’clock or so that evening. So I said, fine. Why don’t you meet me at the Cabana Motel at 11 o’clock that evening, or, you know, when you get through, and I will be in--the club at the Cabana is called the Bon Vivant. Meet me in the Bon Vivant Room and we will say hello. I hadn’t seen him for some time.

Meanwhile, I had stopped in to Jack’s place that evening. I don’t know what time. I would venture to say in the neighborhood of 9 o’clock that night. This was Thursday night, the 21st. I think that is pretty accurate because it comes back to me now.

I visited with Jack for about, oh, an hour, I don’t know, just sat around there and yakked with him. Nothing of any consequence. He might have even brought up this amateur night thing again. Of course, you realize that was before any of this tragedy had struck. So then I told Jack that my brother and his wife were going to meet me for a drink at the Bon Vivant Room about 11 o’clock and if he had the time, why didn’t he come over and meet us. So he said he would if he could. Well, I don’t remember now--I guess possibly around 11:15 or so my brother and his wife came by and within the next half hour or less, Jack came by. So we sat there, and if I remember right, he had coffee. I have never seen him take a drink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with Jack at that time?

Mr. MEYERS. No; Jack was alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw him at the club, was anybody with him, at the Carousel Club?

Mr. MEYERS. Nobody that I would have--well, see, it is a hard question for me to answer. He was the host and he was with people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George Senator there that you recall?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t remember him being there. Now, he might have been. There were a number of people in the club I don’t remember. I know I didn’t talk to him there. If he was there, I didn’t see him. Shall I go on?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. Well, let me interrupt you.

Mr. MEYERS. Go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time do you think you spent with him at the Carousel Club?

Mr. MEYERS. Thursday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. In the neighborhood of an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during that period at the Carousel Club, what do you recall that Jack talked about?

Mr. MEYERS. I just have no recollection. It was nothing of any consequence--beefs about trying to get hold of this union official, that one, to do this or do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything unusual about his behavior?

Mr. MEYERS. He was just as nutty as he always was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MEYERS. And I use the word advisedly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, you see, you have me in a very awkward position. All this has happened, all these things have happened since and obviously I have read everything about it naturally. Indirectly I am involved, let’s put it this way. So I suppose I possibly have paid more attention to it than the average layman would have.

Maybe not. I don’t know. And I have tried in my own mind to associate Jack’s behavior as I knew him to this terrible thing that he did. In other words, I am trying to--I don’t know how to word it. I like him. And I am trying to understand what could have motivated him to do a thing like this, get into that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before we get to that point, let’s see if we can’t try to establish the facts about what you saw him do during this period.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, all he did that night that I can remember, Mr. Griffin, is his perpetual running around. He was running to the cash register to take it--I think it is a $2 admission that he had into his club, or running over to the lights to switch them on and off and up and down as the various girls would go through their various gyrations, and running over and talking to this waitress or talking to that one and talking to people in the club, to men primarily, none of whom I knew or paid any attention to because they didn’t concern me.

Now, you say did I see Oswald in that club that night? This is a ridiculous thing for me to say. I didn’t see him. He might have been there. I would have been the most surprised guy in the world if he was, but do you follow what I am trying to say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. MEYERS. I just paid no attention to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the club on Thursday night, did Jack mention anything to you about the President’s expected arrival in Dallas the following day?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t even remember this. This is absolute fact. I have no recollection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his having mentioned it later when you met him at the Bon Vivant Room?

Mr. MEYERS. It did come up. I remember this very distinctly. It came up but it came up in an aroundabout way and I will tell you how that happened if you want me to do that now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all let me ask one further question. Is there anything else you remember about what happened at the Carousel Club on Thursday night?

Mr. MEYERS. He was supremely upset. I remember this. He was very angry at one of the girls who had worked for him who he--now, this is his story. You know this again comes back to me. His story is that this girl--she was his star performer, I suppose, and had a sensational act and evidently there was some local objection to some of her act from the standpoint of decency thing. So he had asked her would she please tone down her act so that he would have no problem with the authorities, as far as performance was concerned, and that she had defied him and did the act as she had always done it, and possibly even a little more so. So he fired her. He let her go. Now this is his story to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this conversation occur Thursday night or was it one you had earlier?

Mr. MEYERS. I am almost sure it was Thursday night, but it might have been earlier. You see, it is confusing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the name of this girl Jada?

Mr. MEYERS. Jada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you a few questions, then, to try to establish when this conversation might have taken place. Do you recall being at the Carousel Club during the fall of 1963 when Jack Ruby had a photographer, commercial photographer, there taking pictures?

Mr. MEYERS. I have no recollection of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever met a commercial photographer from California whose name is Eddy Rocco?

Mr. MEYERS. No; not at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in Dallas at the time of any of the SMU football games in the fall of 1963?

Mr. MEYERS. That is a hard thing to answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attend any?

Mr. MEYERS. No, no; I have never gone to a football game in Dallas in my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of being in Dallas between the time you gave Joy Dale the $200 check and the time that you saw Ruby on Thursday night?

Mr. MEYERS. Here I have to answer you this way. I do not remember whether I was there or not in that--what would that be--about a 4-week period or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Four to six weeks.

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t remember. I can find out very easily, you know, my travel records, because I keep these things--tax structure--but I don’t remember having been there. It is possible I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than this conversation about Jada that may have occurred on Thursday night and the other things you have mentioned that occurred at the Carousel Club on Thursday night, is there anything else that took place at the Carousel Club Thursday night that you can recall.

Mr. MEYERS. Not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when you left the Carousel Club, did you go directly to the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. MEYERS. I suppose so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long after you left the Carousel Club did Ruby arrive at the Cabana?

Mr. MEYERS. I would say between 2 and 2½ hours. Wait a minute. I got there--I must have left Jack about 9:30. About 2 hours to 2½ hours--give or take a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were at the Carousel Club, do you recall if Jack had eaten dinner at that point?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his mentioning to you about his sister’s illness, or about the management of the Vegas Club, Thursday night?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, you mentioned the Vegas Club and you brought up another thing in my mind. Now, whether this happened that night or not--you must understand--I just don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that.

Mr. MEYERS. He was a little upset--it was either that night or possibly the time previous that I had seen him--of the fact that some hillbilly band that had been working at the Vegas Club who were evidently very successful, and a very good draw, were leaving. Some competitor, or somebody else, had offered them more money. I don’t know what it was, but they were--they had either left or they were leaving, and he was rather upset about this.

He didn’t say a word to me about his sister. As a matter of fact, I have never even met his sister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To be specific, do you have any recollection that Jack told you that he was going to take one of his employees over to the Vegas Club to run the Vegas Club that evening, or that he had already done so?

Mr. MEYERS. No; I have no recollection of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you thought you were supposed to meet your brother at the Cabana about 11?

Mr. MEYERS. Roughly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as midnight?

Mr. MEYERS. Very possibly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible at the time that the lapse of time between your seeing Ruby at the Carousel and the time of your seeing him at the Cabana could have been as little as an hour?

Mr. MEYERS. No; I would almost swear that it would have to have been longer than that because I couldn’t possibly have left--well, here again maybe I am nutty. I am almost certain I didn’t leave the Carousel after 10 o’clock--maybe I did. But I would--I would go on record that I didn’t. I think I left there about 10, and I drove right back to the Cabana, and that could not have taken me over 15 minutes, and my brother and his wife then joined me, and this again I say is somewhere, 11–11:30, I don’t know.

I just don’t pay that much attention to time. Jack came in shortly after they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To try to fix the time that you were at the Carousel Club, try to think where you had dinner, if you can, on that Thursday night, and how long it was from the time you had dinner until you went to the Carousel Club.

Mr. MEYERS. You know something, I haven’t got the vaguest recollection of where I had dinner that night. I could have sat down in some real fine restaurant and had an excellent dinner. I could have stopped in some coffeeshop and had a sandwich and a cup of coffee. I haven’t got the vaguest recollection. Did I tell the people from the FBI. If I did, then I possibly--possibly I remembered it a little better then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; you didn’t.

Mr. MEYERS. I have no recollection of where I had dinner that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived at the Cabana, were your brother and his wife already there?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anyone accompany Jack to the Cabana?

Mr. MEYERS. No; well nobody accompanied Jack when he sat at the table with me. Now, I wouldn’t know who he came out there with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, try to tell us as best you can what happened from the time Ruby arrived at the Cabana until he left?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, really so very little. I introduced my brother and sister to him. We yakked about--I don’t know anything that--I really couldn’t tell you what we talked about. It was nothing that was consequential in any shape, manner, or form other than the fact he was interested--when I told him my brother was a Pepsi Cola distributor--would there be any way that Eddie could handle this twistboard of his as a premium with the Pepsi Cola operation which I, of course, said forget it--it just doesn’t fit. It is just not that. It is not that kind of a thing.

What else did we talk about? I don’t know. We could have talked about anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, earlier you were about to talk, before I cut you off, about the conversation that had to do with the President’s arrival in Dallas.

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that take place and what happened?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, at the table that evening, my brother and sister-in-law had never seen our plant in McKinney. McKinney is 30 miles north of Dallas. The airport, I assume--and I could be a little wrong on mileage--is about 10 or 12 miles in, more or less, the same direction from Dallas. I wanted my brother and his wife to see our plant. So they had reservations to leave Dallas on an 11 something flight that morning. I couldn’t tell you exactly what the time was. I do know it was shortly before the President was due to arrive, because this, of course, was all published in the Dallas papers. So I said to Eddie, I said, “Eddie, why don’t I pick you up tomorrow morning, you and Thelma, at the Adolphus, we will have breakfast. I will pick you up early, about 8 o’clock. We will have breakfast. I will run you over to the plant. It won’t take me more than an hour to get there. We will spend a half hour or so, and you can look it over, and I will bring you back to the airport on my way back to Dallas.”

So then the question came up, “Won’t we get hungry up at the airport?” “No,” I said, “we will get there before the President’s plane is due to arrive, and I am not going to stay and watch the airplane come in, and I will drop you off and take off, and I should be out of the crowd before the crush or whatever is going to happen--you know--the mob of people going out to see him. So this was arranged, and this was the only conversation about the President coming in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby present during that conversation?

Mr. MEYERS. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his saying anything during that conversation?

Mr. MEYERS. If he said anything, I have no recollection of it because obviously this whole thing was as far from my mind as if you told me you were going to jump off the top of that building over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack remain at the Cabana?

Mr. MEYERS. Not very long. He left before my brother and sister-in-law did. I would say he stayed maybe 20 or 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again that night?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him the next day, Friday?

Mr. MEYERS. No. The next day was a very tragic day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before he left on Friday night or on Thursday night, had you made any arrangements with Jack Ruby to see him again.

Mr. MEYERS. No; just we will be in touch or have dinner one night, you know, generalities. I might have even told him I would be in the club the next night. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you did on Friday morning.

Mr. MEYERS. Friday morning. Well, I took my brother and sister--as I told you, I met my brother, took them--had breakfast at the Adolphus about 8 o’clock, drove up to McKinney, got to McKinney I would say in the neighborhood of about 9:30, quarter of 10, and spent roughly 20 minutes to a half hour going through the plant with our plant manager, and then I piled them in the car and took them back to the Dallas airport and we got to Love Field, I would say, within 10 minutes of the arrival of the President and his plane. I said goodby and left them. I got in my car and continued on out. Are you familiar with Dallas? I continued out Lover’s Lane to pick up Stemmons Expressway, Stemmons Freeway, turned down into Dallas and picked up the Fort Worth Turnpike to go to Fort Worth because I had an appointment with Leonard’s which is a department store in Fort Worth that morning. I guess, of course, I had the car radio turned on and I heard all the business about the President’s arrival, and so on and so forth. Along about 12 or a little before 12 I stopped at, I guess it is a Howard Johnson’s on the Fort Worth Turnpike for some lunch. I had either just eaten a sandwich and some coffee or I was waiting to go in when some man came up to me and says, “Have you heard that the President has been shot,” and I said, “Hell, no,” or some exclamation like that. I said, “Are you kidding?” He said “No, I heard it on my car radio a little while ago that the President has been shot and there was a lot of Secret Service men that had been shot, police had been shot, there were all sorts of rumors flying around.”

Well, I suppose I was just as shocked as most people. I got back in the car and I drove into Leonard’s--drove in to Fort Worth, went down into Leonard’s and the office of the man who buys the sporting goods is right off the automotive department of Leonard’s, a Mr. Kelley, and in the automotive department they had a television set set up and at this time, by the time I had gotten there, of course, the President and Governor had been taken to the Parkland Hospital, and, well, the rest of it, you know, they were going through all this television business. Of course, everybody came to a standstill. I could no more have talked business to the man than if some terrible tragedy happened now and I would have to stop talking to you. I guess everybody was shook up. So I got back in the car and went back to the hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive back at the hotel?

Mr. MEYERS. There again I am guessing. I got to Fort Worth I would say in the vicinity of 12:30, or quarter of 1. I stayed there watching television until the actual official word was given on television that the President was dead and then I drove right back to the hotel. Now, when was the official word given? If you tell me that I will tell you when I got back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would have been----

Mr. MEYERS. I would say approximately 3 o’clock is when I got back to the hotel, give or take a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay there at the hotel?

Mr. MEYERS. I stayed there all night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see or talk to Jack Ruby at all that day?

Mr. MEYERS. Not Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was the Dallas Cabana that you were staying at?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of Ruby’s friends that day?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or talk to them?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall what you did on Saturday?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, gosh, I don’t know. I know I watched television with all the business until my eyes bugged out of my head both Friday night and all day or most of the day Saturday. I couldn’t have done anything of any consequence. There was no place to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you at any time drive down to Dealey Plaza or the site of the shooting?

Mr. MEYERS. That is possible, very possible. Highly possible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time on Saturday when you did talk to Jack Ruby?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time?

Mr. MEYERS. In bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection of what time this was?

Mr. MEYERS. 9 or 10 o’clock Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to fix that time?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, because I was undressed and going to bed and I wouldn’t have gone to bed--I certainly wouldn’t have gone to bed much later than that because there wouldn’t have been anything for me to do or any place to go. It would have been a case of sitting in the room or driving around in the car which I didn’t want to do or sitting in the lobby reading a book which I didn’t want to do. I was in the room in bed and I am again saying it was somewhere, 9, 10 o’clock that night, a few minutes either way, and it was highly possible. And the phone rang and it was Jack on the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI on December 3, you indicated at that time that the telephone call that you received came in at approximately 10:30 p.m. or at least this is what the FBI has reported you said.

Mr. MEYERS. It is possible, highly possible. I say 9, 10, give or take a little while. You see, you must understand one thing, Mr. Griffin, Friday after the assassination--I don’t know how to word this so you won’t think I am an idiot--was a reasonably exciting day, may I put it that way, because so much was happening, so much going on, so much tragedy and also in my opinion so much stupidity. However, this is my opinion. And Saturday was pretty much repetition of all this plus what was going on in Washington when they had brought the body back and I think there was, oh, I don’t know, preparations for the funeral or various people on television but it was greatly repetition. And once the first shock of this tragedy had worn off, all of this watching of television with the various commentators and the various different people inevitably saying the same thing, I suppose became rather boring. I was sick enough about it any way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did your telephone conversation with Ruby last Saturday night?

Mr. MEYERS. I would say in the neighborhood of 15 or 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, 15 or 20 minutes is a reasonably long telephone call.

Mr. MEYERS. It was a reasonably long conversation. I would say possibly 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you remember of that conversation, how it started and how it progressed.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, he called me and the first thing he said to me is what did I think of this terrible, terrible thing? So I said the usual banalities, what did I think about it, it was a horrible thing. So it was so sad that I thought in this country, if you didn’t like a man’s politics you voted him out of office instead of killing him, and that in a nutty place--I hope neither of you are from Dallas----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me, if you know--are these things that you actually said to him or thoughts that you had later on?

Mr. MEYERS. I said to him, in a nutty place like Dallas anything can happen. I don’t mean I was not surprised that this happened but that only in a place like Dallas, I guess was the words I used, would a thing like this happen, which was a ridiculous thing to say. It could have happened anywhere. And then he kept repeating himself. He was so absolutely repetitious about those poor people. Now, I want to make this point clear. He had been--oh, yes. It comes back now. He was squawking or beefing to me about the fact that his competitors had opened their place of business Saturday night and that he had stayed closed. He had closed his. And how terrible he thought it was and how unfair he thought it was. And then he went into this conversation of these poor people, these poor people, I feel so sorry for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention what poor people he was talking about?

Mr. MEYERS. This is what I am getting at now. My original concept was that these poor people he was talking about were his competitors whom he felt had no heart and no--well, no feelings, you know; they were money hungry and this bit. And then it dawned on me as he went on and kept mentioning the poor woman and the children and then I realized he was talking not about his competitors but about Mrs. Kennedy and her children, and I don’t know exactly what I said to him. How could I remember exactly other than, well, Jack, I am sure that she will make--you know, life goes on. She will make a life for herself, and so on and so forth. Then he was obviously very upset. He was--let me say it this way--in all of my conversations with him through the years that I have known him, he had occasions to get to a degree overwhelmed, in other words, he would almost get incoherent because he was so anxious to get his point over. I am sure you have talked to people who will do this. This night he seemed far more incoherent than I have ever listened to him. The guy sounded absolutely like he had flipped his lid, I guess. Of course, you all have to understand I have read so much, everybody swinging this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to focus on what your view was at that time?

Mr. MEYERS. I am trying very hard because I am sure you realize I want to tell you everything that I know. And I also have a reason for this. He became so incoherent, so vehement about these poor people, these poor people, the poor children, I said, Jack, where are you, and I don’t remember where he said he was, I really don’t. I said, look--he said come have a drink with me or a cup of coffee with me. That is right. He asked me to come and have something with him, some food or drink. I said, Jack, that is silly. I am undressed. I have bathed. I am in bed. I want to go to sleep but, I said, if you want a cup of coffee you come on over here and come on up to my room and I will have some coffee or food sent up to my room and we can sit here and talk. He said, no, no, he had things to do. He couldn’t come over. I don’t know whether he said at the time or not but he couldn’t come over. This went on for a little while and the last thing I said, Jack, why don’t you go ahead and get a good night’s sleep and forget this thing. And you call me about 6 o’clock tomorrow night because I have no plans for tomorrow night. Call me at 6 tomorrow night and we will have dinner together and he said okay. I said, fine, Jack, I will look forward to your calling about 6 o’clock Sunday night. He didn’t call me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall--you say he mentioned to you where he was.

Mr. MEYERS. No; he didn’t tell me where he was. You mean he called me Saturday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, I am saying if he told me where he was, I have no recollection of it. I don’t know where he was when he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you to the effect that his sister had suggested that he call a friend or that he call you?

Mr. MEYERS. Not that I remember. You must understand one thing. You see, I have never met his sister. To this day I have never met his sister and whether his sister knew me or knew about me, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about having taken any pictures of a billboard in Dallas?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember his mentioning a sign which urged that Earl Warren be impeached?

Mr. MEYERS. I know the sign you are talking about. I have no recollection of him ever mentioning this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his mentioning to you an advertisement that appeared in the Dallas Morning News on November 22 which addressed to a series of questions to President Kennedy with a black-bordered advertisement and bore the name of Bernard Weissman?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of that?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention to you any theories that he had about the assassination?

(Mr. Meyers shook his head in the negative.)

Mr. MEYERS. We didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You will have to answer no. You have to give an audible response.

Mr. MEYERS. I am sorry. I keep forgetting this. No; he never discussed any of these things with me. As a matter of fact, we never discussed the assassination other than his misery when he called me Saturday night. Now, obviously it would be said, what a terrible thing, you know, this type of thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he mentioned to you that his competitors were open, did he indicate how he knew they were open?

Mr. MEYERS. No. I would assume he went by and saw them open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you recall, have any specific recollection of his saying that?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his having said that he visited any nightclubs at all that night?

Mr. MEYERS. Didn’t mention it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention to you that he had seen Lee Oswald the night before?

Mr. MEYERS. No. Didn’t even mention Lee Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked with the FBI on December 3, the FBI has quoted you as saying that one of the things that Ruby told you in the conversation was “I have got to do something about this.” Do you remember that----

Mr. MEYERS. Definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That statement?

Mr. MEYERS. Definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how that--in what context this came up.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, this again is--you see, this, of course, is my interpretation of this. When he was talking to me on the telephone and he said these poor people--you mentioned this and it all comes back to me--I have got to do something about this. I thought he was talking about his competitors being open on Saturday night because this was the basis of his conversation with me all along and that he was going to do something about them staying open on Saturday night in defiance or--I shouldn’t say in defiance--out of nonrespect for the assassination, or for the memory of the President, or anything like this.

Also, I suppose, unfortunately, religion has to come into this thing, although, good lord, I wish it didn’t. Also the fact that Jack obviously is Jewish, so am I, and so were his two competitors, and Jack is--I don’t know how to word this--militantly Jewish. In other words, he is going to make an issue of this. He thought it was terrible that Jewish people should show such disrespect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he specifically mention this Jewish aspect?

Mr. MEYERS. He didn’t specifically mention it but, Mr. Griffin, it is a difficult thing to say, but in my understanding of Jack, this is what I assumed he was talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that he said that led you to think he had some reference to the fact----

Mr. MEYERS. Well, “these poor people, and wasn’t it”--you see, you are putting words in my mouth now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to do that.

Mr. MEYERS. I am putting words in my own mouth actually. He had many times intimated to me or indicated to me that it was a damn shame, to use his words, that his competitors were such money hungry Jews, and, of course, we could get into quite a discussion about technicalities in this and feelings in this matter, and I of course--you see, my background and Jack’s is so completely different. It is so difficult for me to sometimes see his way of thinking. Do you follow what I am trying to say?

Some things that Jack said I would have sympathized with him. Other things that he said I might have sympathized with him but certainly not like the way he said it. Do I make myself clear? There were just, in other words, just as many money hungry Christians as there are Jews.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this opinion that you are giving us, that Jack was upset about the Weinsteins being open, in part because they were Jewish, is this an opinion which you had at the time that you talked with Jack that night or is that one that you formed later on after reading----

Mr. MEYERS. No, no; that is an opinion I had that night when I first thought that he was talking about the Weinsteins.

And the fact that he led me to believe--I will put it this way--that he was talking about them in the category of money hungry Jews is because he was so militantly against anybody bum-rapping Jews, that is a way of saying it. I don’t know how to word it. I know exactly what I want to say but I don’t know how to use the words. He thought it was a reflection on the Jews that these people would do such a thing. Let me put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything specifically that would lead you to believe that just on the basis of that conversation, or was this something that you were concluding on the basis of having known him.

Mr. MEYERS. It was a conclusion from having known him because he did not mention the Weinsteins by name Saturday night when he talked to me. All he said, and he repeated this a number of times, were, “those poor people, those poor people, I have got to do something” or, “I should do something about this.” I don’t know exactly which words he used.

This he said a few times. Now, my assumption through my conversations with him and through knowing him is that he was talking about these Weinsteins.

I have since begun to believe that he was not talking about the Weinsteins. He was talking about the Kennedy family. At least this is my conclusion; and I am not a psychiatrist or an attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, again, is that conclusion based on anything he said that night or is it based simply on the fact that later he shot Lee Oswald.

Mr. MEYERS. You mean my conclusion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. I would assume it is based on the fact that Sunday morning he shot Lee Oswald.

Now, he did a number of times mention, “those poor people, those poor people. I have got to do something about it, or I should do something about it.” And you see, you must understand, Mr. Griffin, that the assassination, of course, had occurred. The murder of Oswald, particularly by Jack Ruby, was--well I can only say the furthest thing from my mind. I just had no belief or concept--any more than Miss Taylor might pick that thing up and decide to hit me on the head with it right now. I would be just as shocked. As a matter of fact, when I found out he had done it, it was the most shocking thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that before closing the conversation, Ruby said to you that he had to go downtown, or that he had some business downtown.

Mr. MEYERS. You mean Saturday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did not say that?

Mr. MEYERS. No. The last thing he said--I will repeat myself now, and this I know is a fact. He was more incoherent than he had ever been when I talked to him that night, and he asked me to meet him for some coffee or a drink, I don’t remember exactly what he said, and I told him that I was undressed and in bed and I had no desire to get up and get dressed, that if he wanted to have a cup of coffee with me, come on down to the hotel or come up to my room. I would have some coffee sent up and we could visit. He said, no, he couldn’t do that. He couldn’t do that. I don’t think he said why. I don’t remember why. He said, I couldn’t do. I said, all right, Jack, I have no plans for tomorrow evening. I said why don’t you call me here about 6 o’clock and I said, we will have dinner together tomorrow night and he said fine and that is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought you mentioned earlier when he said no, he couldn’t do that, he mentioned something about his having some business, some other things to do.

Mr. MEYERS. If he said it, I have no recollection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about having had a telephone call from one of his dancers who wanted to borrow some money?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, now, you see, here I am confused because I know that he sent this kid some money in Fort Worth. I read all about this. Now, whether he mentioned it to me or not, Mr. Griffin, I don’t remember. He might have. He might not have. I don’t know. But, you see, you must appreciate my position because it is difficult for me to disassociate what I have read from what actually happened. Now, I do know that he sent this kid, this pregnant kid, some money. I don’t remember his mentioning it to me Saturday night. He might have. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In thinking back on his conversation, to what extent did his conversation focus on his competitors as opposed to the extent that it focused on “those poor people, those poor people”?

Mr. MEYERS. This is Saturday night you are talking about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. Well, you see, I don’t think I have made myself very clear. When he talked to me Saturday night, he did mention the fact that these competitors were open Saturday night and he did mention the fact of how terrible it was because of a sign of disrespect to the President and the fact that this money hungry Jew did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he use the phrase “money hungry Jew”?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes. He used that phrase to me many times. Whether he used it that night, you see, I can’t be specific.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to be if you can’t be.

Mr. MEYERS. I can’t be specific.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not clear?

Mr. MEYERS. I am not specific. Let’s say I am not factual on that. I am not exact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MEYERS. Now, somewhere in this conversation he swung from his competitors to these poor people. Now, this could have been early in the conversation that I had with him that night or later in the conversation, in the same conversation, that is, and when he went from speaking directly about his competitors to these poor people, I still assumed he was speaking about his competitors. My belief since, of course, is that he was no longer speaking about his competitors. He was speaking about the Kennedy family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this conversation a conversation in which Jack would pause frequently and you would say something or was it something which----

Mr. MEYERS. It was pretty much his conversation to me and me saying Jack, calm down, unwind, you know, get it off your mind, or something of this type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think about your side of the conversation and tell us what things you were saying to him?

Mr. MEYERS. Well, actually, Mr. Griffin, I said very little to him other than to--I used the words, pacify him. He was obviously very upset, and again I thought he was upset because of his competition and he was upset obviously because of the assassination. My conversation to him--my words to him were nothing specific more than typical pacifying comment every now and then when he would let loose another tirade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any possibility in your mind that this conversation could have taken place after midnight?

Mr. MEYERS. No. I would be extremely surprised if that took place after midnight. I couldn’t have lost that much time. It would have to have taken place somewhere around--10 that night. It might have even been closer to 11 but it couldn’t possibly have been midnight because I was not yet asleep.

As a matter of fact, I was in bed reading, either reading or watching television, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Jack’s concern about the Weinsteins being what he apparently called money hungry Jews. In your experiences with Jack, would you say that Jack was any less interested in making money than the Weinsteins?

Mr. MEYERS. No, no; Jack was just as interested in making money, I am sure. You know, a good psychiatrist could give you the answer to this very simply. The fact remains that the Weinsteins have evidently lots of money and Jack doesn’t or didn’t, and I suppose he resents this to a degree.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your experience with Jack as to whether or not he was an aggressive or passive business entrepreneur?

Mr. MEYERS. Whether he was aggressive or passive as an individual?

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a businessman. Was he----

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, extremely aggressive. Extremely aggressive. I think Jack’s entire nature is aggressive. I think his character is extremely aggressive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with his attitude toward the Jews, had you ever talked to him about any books that he was reading about the Jews?

Mr. MEYERS. No. Let me make his attitude about Jews a little clearer to you. I may have given you a wrong impression. Jack in my opinion is extremely proud of being Jewish--and we’ll put it on a personal basis--just as I am. And due to Jack’s childhood, which I have read so much about--I knew nothing about it until I read about this--and his home life, the way he matured, it is very obvious to me that Jack did have an inferiority complex, we’ll use the old cliche, and that he had become or tried to become an extrovert in order to fit in with what he thought were important people to fit in with due to his lack of formal education. He would attach himself to people from whom he thought he could learn, from whom he thought he could better himself, which, more power to him.

I think also he resented maybe to a degree of envy what some of these--what these Weinsteins were doing, first because he envied them their success, and second, because on this particular night, this Saturday night, they had done something that he felt was derogatory to his people and he would resent it, just as I would resent--and here I must put it on a personal basis, it is a stupid thing, believe me--just as I would resent the living caricature of what a Hitler would portray as a Jew or just as you would resent a living caricature that somebody might portray as the worst element in your faith, and we all have this in our faith.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Mr. Meyers, any specific episode or conversations you had with Jack about his feelings towards his Jewish background or his sensitivity toward being a Jew?

Mr. MEYERS. I have a feeling he was very proud of being a Jew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any specific conversations?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention his feelings about being a Jew from time to time in conversations that you had with him?

Mr. MEYERS. No, we just didn’t discuss it. There was just nothing to discuss between he and I on this.

You know, something else comes to my mind now. I also--it is so hard for me to separate what actually happened from what I have read. Can I word it this way?

I am reasonably sure that when he talked to me Saturday night he also said something about going to his rabbi or to the synagogue and that he was surprised that there were no special services that day for the memory of the President.

Now, again, I want to emphasize the fact that I am reasonably sure he said this to me because it seems to come into my mind when he was talking about synagogue and services and rabbis and there would have been no occasion for it other than this, at that time of the night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this have been something that you perhaps learned as a result of talking with one of his brothers or sisters?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t know his brothers or sisters. I have never met them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the various times that you had seen Jack Ruby, had you ever seen him get in any fight or become violent with people?

Mr. MEYERS. No; I have never seen Jack become physically violent. I have seen him verbally bawl out people, but I have never seen him become physically violent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack ever talked to you about his associations with underworld characters--hoodlums?

Mr. MEYERS. Many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What has he told you about it?

Mr. MEYERS. Generalities. Typical--nothing specific, just typical of a man who wants to be with the ingroup, if you want to call this the ingroup, just dropping names of so-called important people that he met or had known, or so on and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever say anything to you which indicated that he had ever been a part of any criminal organization?

Mr. MEYERS. No; not--of course, you get a finer point of what is criminal and what is not. Jack did tell me, in his youth he was, well, the words he used, a hustler around Chicago, trying to make a stray buck on selling scalping tickets for various fights or hockey games or something like this. I don’t know if he was a criminal. I mean, you know what interpretation you want to put----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you ever get any indications from him that he had ever sold narcotics?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that he had ever, himself, been a part of any gambling organization.

Mr. MEYERS. Mr. Griffin, if I ever thought that Jack was involved in anything--in a narcotic or this kind of thing--I would immediately have bought back my introduction to him. I personally, now, this is--should I say this is off the record, because this is not going to be published anywhere, is it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me tell you that it will be.

Mr. MEYERS. Published?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything that is going to be said here will be published, but we appreciate your frankness.

Mr. MEYERS. There is one thing that--what were we talking about? It slipped my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to comment about if you ever had any idea or known that he was connected with narcotics or anything like that.

Mr. MEYERS. You can put this down if you want to, but I prefer you to stop for a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have a policy of not----

Mr. MEYERS. Well, I don’t want to embarrass myself. This is all that this has to do with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. We will go off the record here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that we have perhaps talked for 2 or 3 minutes off the record here, and Mr. Meyers told us about Jack Ruby’s attitude toward people who would come to him and ask him to fix them up with one of his female employees, and Mr. Meyers stated to me that one of the things that Jack Ruby liked about Mr. Meyers was that Mr. Meyers was not one of those kinds of people who had done that.

Let me ask you this question pertaining to Jack Ruby now.

Did Jack do or say anything to you, or do you have any knowledge that Jack was making any money by offering extra curricular services for his girls?

Mr. MEYERS. I can only answer that by telling you, Mr. Griffin, that if this is so, I would be the most surprised man. I personally have absolutely no knowledge or indication of this in any shape, manner, or form, and my reason for being so positive is that I don’t think Jack ever lied to me. He would have no reason to lie to me in any of our conversations, and that he made it a point to tell me that one of the things that he detested about people who would try to impose on their friendship with him to get him to influence any of the girls in his club to go with them.

He made it a point to tell me that he didn’t approve of this type of thing. He said what they do when they are out of here is their business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any indication, any information, that Jack Ruby was a homosexual.

Mr. MEYERS. I have been asked that question by the FBI. If Jack Ruby is a homosexual, I know absolutely nothing about it. He certainly never indicated to me in any shape, manner, or form.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me now switch from Jack Ruby to some of your own activities. Let me ask you have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever been a member of any political group, let me state it, have you ever been a member of any group who lobbied for any bills or----

Mr. MEYERS. Let me answer by telling you this. I have a daughter who is a nuclear chemist and who has worked at Argonne and various nuclear reactors. I have a son who was in the ASA for a couple of years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the ASA?

Mr. MEYERS. Army Security Agency, who had a crypto clearance and I and my wife and my family and my wife’s family have been investigated two or three times by various agencies who have to do with these things, and there is absolutely no record of any subversive, Communist, or neopolitical organization or any of this type.

Now, I will answer these questions one by one as you ask them of me if you want me to, but these facts have already been established through my son and my daughter.

You see, when Vicki went to work for Argonne, she had to get a security clearance, and Ralph was in this operation, Ralph was stationed someplace outside of Turkey, and to this day he can’t tell me what he did. I said, “Ralph, what were you actually doing.” He said, “Dad, if you don’t ask me I won’t have to lie to you.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. MEYERS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen Jack Ruby at any time since November 24?

Mr. MEYERS. I have been tempted, but I decided the thing to do is to stay away from him. I have been to Dallas any number of times since, but I don’t see where I could do him any good by seeing him, and I certainly can’t do myself any good by seeing him. He doesn’t need me.

I will tell you this. Had I been called--for any reason had I been called to testify at his trial, I would have testified.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen a gun in Jack Ruby’s possession?

Mr. MEYERS. You mean in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either in his pocket or----

Mr. MEYERS. I have seen a gun in his hands.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many different occasions?

Mr. MEYERS. One occasion I remember distinctly. I saw on one of my trips to Dallas--I don’t remember which one it was--I stayed with Jack until he closed the club and then we went from there and got his car and went to have some coffee or something, and then we said goodby. He went home and I went home. When he left the club he had a money pouch, I suppose you would call it, and he always kept his car in the garage adjacent to his club. He opened the trunk of his car and opened a little bag that looked to me like a little airplane bag, and he put the pouch in this bag, and a gun.

Now, I am actually trying to remember, although I am almost positive the gun was in the bag. In other words, I don’t think he took the gun out of his pocket and put it in the bag. I think it was in the bag and then I said to him, “Jack, why do you carry that damn thing?” He said, “Well, you never know. You have got money around,” and so forth and so on.

I said, “Well, it is yours. You do what you want to. Include me out.”

I have a very healthy respect and fear for those things.

Now, the gentlemen from the FBI asked me if I knew whether Jack Ruby carried a gun, and the answer I would have to give you is the same I gave them. I don’t know. I don’t know if they were carrying a gun. They had their coats on. Maybe he did have a gun, maybe he didn’t. I would have no way of knowing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversation with Jack Ruby Thursday night, November 21, at the Dallas Cabana, do you recall an incident in which Jack Ruby was angry at the head waiter?

Mr. MEYERS. No; I don’t. I really don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you----

Mr. MEYERS. That this happened while he was at the table with me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. I am asking you if you recall it?

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t recall it. I have no recollection of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you if you can identify for us a couple of people--a person by the name of Elsa Hacker?

Mr. MEYERS. Yes; how in the hell would she get into this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a business associate?

Mr. MEYERS. No; this is a friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A person by the name of William Heiman?

Mr. MEYERS. William Heiman?

Mr. GRIFFIN. H-e-i-m-a-n.

Mr. MEYERS. He was my former employer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A person by the name of Chris Diaz Carlos or Carlios.

Mr. MEYERS. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chris Diaz Carlios, Puerto Rico. Do you know any people in Puerto Rico?

Mr. MEYERS. No; nobody. That is, I don’t know--offhand I couldn’t tell you of anybody I know in Puerto Rico.

I have got to ask you this question. How did Elsa Hacker get into this thing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t answer the question for you.

Mr. MEYERS. If there was anything more farfetched, this would be it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I say I can’t answer that.

Mr. MEYERS. Oh, my goodness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven’t discussed here which you think might be relevant?

Mr. MEYERS. Really not--I mean--we have talked about it. The only thing that I discussed with the FBI other than what you and I have talked about is, of course, my personal feelings about Jack, and I have given you indications of these as I have gone along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any more questions. I want to thank you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us.

Mr. MEYERS. Fine, I hope so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hope we haven’t interrupted your schedule too much.

Mr. MEYERS. Just took a day out of my life, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, fine.

Mr. MEYERS. I don’t think I have left anything out of any consequence, actually. There is really nothing. I tried to think if there is anything that I could add to this and I can’t, other than, as I say, my own personal opinion of what the heck went on, this is beside the point, because it is all over and done with, more or less. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.

AFFIDAVIT OF WILLIAM KLINE

The following affidavit was executed by William Kline on July 31, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Webb, ss:

William Kline, being duly sworn, deposes and says that:

1. I am Assistant Agent in Charge, United States Customs, Laredo, Texas.

2. Subsequent to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I received many telephone inquiries from news reporters from various parts of the United States.

3. I do not recall being interviewed by Harold Feldman who I am informed represented the New York Post, nor do I recall being interviewed by any person identifying himself as being employed by the “Nation Magazine.”

4. With respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, I have no personal knowledge whatsoever of any check made on him by the United States Public Health Service, Laredo, Texas, either upon his entry into or exit from Mexico in 1963.

5. I have no personal knowledge whatsoever that any agency of the United States Government maintained a surveillance of Oswald’s movements, and I have never indicated to the contrary to any news reporters.

Signed this 31st day of July 1964.

(S) William Kline, WILLIAM KLINE.

AFFIDAVIT OF ORAN PUGH

The following affidavit was executed by Oran Pugh on August 26, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Webb, ss:

Oran Pugh, being duly sworn, deposes and says that:

1. I am Agent in Charge, United States Customs, Laredo, Texas.

2. Subsequent to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I received many telephone inquiries from news reporters from various parts of the United States.

3. I do not recall being interviewed by Harold Feldman who I am informed represented the New York Post, nor do I recall being interviewed by any person identifying himself as being employed by the “Nation Magazine.”

4. In any event, all information supplied by me to news reporters was not based upon my personal knowledge; rather, all such information was supplied to me by my assistant, William Kline.

5. I recall having advised news reporters of the following information:

(a) United States citizens are not required to register or check-in with the Immigration and Naturalization Service either on entry to or exit from Mexico.

(b) Lee Harvey Oswald checked into the United States Public Health Service, International Bridge, Laredo, Texas, upon his re-entry into the United States in October 1963.

(c) The Immigration and Naturalization Service does not presently have, nor has it ever maintained a file containing information concerning Oswald’s trip to Mexico in 1963.

(d) The Immigration and Naturalization Service maintained a file with respect to Oswald’s visit to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and his return to the United States together with his wife and child.

Signed this 26th day of August 1964.

(S) Oran Pugh, ORAN PUGH.

AFFIDAVIT OF J. E. CURRY

The following affidavit was executed by J. E. Curry on August 10, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

Before me Eunice Sorrells, a notary public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. E. Curry, chief of police, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

This affidavit is prepared in response to a letter of August 5, 1964, from J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. Rankin pointed out in his letter that on page 175 of my testimony before the Commission in response to a question by Representative Ford, I stated that during a showup of Lee Harvey Oswald a witness to whom Oswald was shown did not identify him as the person who killed Officer J. D. Tippit.

On page 176 in response to questions by Mr. Rankin I stated that Mrs. Markham did identify Oswald as the man who killed Officer Tippit.

The answer shown to the question posed by Representative Ford that Mrs. Markham did not identify Oswald--is in error. The first time Mrs. Markham was shown Oswald, she positively identified him as the slayer of the officer.

Signed this 10th day of August 1964.

(S) J. E. Curry, J. E. CURRY.

TESTIMONY OF BRUCE RAY CARLIN

The testimony of Bruce Ray Carlin was taken at 12:35 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Bruce Carlin.

Mr. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.

I understand that a letter was written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President’s Commission, which however was not delivered because I don’t think they had the right address. That means of course that you have not had written notice of the taking of this deposition and under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken, but those rules also provide that that 3-day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it, and I ask you now, since you have not received the letter, whether you are willing to waive the notice and go ahead and testify now without the notice?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I am.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you rise then so I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you’re about to give at this time will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARLIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. Bruce Ray Carlin.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your address, Mr. Carlin?

Mr. CARLIN. 1054 West Allen.

Mr. HUBERT. Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now, sir?

Mr. CARLIN. I am a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you work for a company?

Mr. CARLIN. I am contracting on my own in the aluminum business; screens.

Mr. HUBERT. You are self-employed then, is that right?

Mr. CARLIN. You can call it that, what employment that I have.

Mr. HUBERT. What company do you sell for?

Mr. CARLIN. Various companies--whichever one makes me the best deal on the aluminum screens that I sell--Southwest, New Aluminum, Webb Aluminum.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. CARLIN. About 3 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your employment prior to that?

Mr. CARLIN. Part of the time I worked for the Motel Drug Service. Other than that, I haven’t been working.

Mr. HUBERT. Motel what?

Mr. CARLIN. Motel Drug Service.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mr. CARLIN. We supply sundries to the lobbies of motels for traveling people.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in Houston on November 21, 1963, that’s the day before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I know I was traveling--the day the President was shot, I was in Louisiana. The day before--I have some newspapers that I got from Houston--I do not know the exact date.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you doing in Houston?

Mr. CARLIN. We were servicing motels. We were servicing motels with drugs for the motels.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was your specific employer there?

Mr. CARLIN. Jerry Bunker.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?

Mr. CARLIN. He lives here in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I don’t know the name of the street but he did live at Ridgemar Plaza.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an office there?

Mr. CARLIN. He uses his apartment as his office.

Mr. HUBERT. You “serviced”, you say, various motels?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Under his direction?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually brought the products there?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes--well, my primary purpose was to sell the accounts. Of course, I did help him service them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have an automobile or a truck?

Mr. CARLIN. A station wagon.

Mr. HUBERT. And you carried these sundries around?

Mr. CARLIN. With us; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And whatever outfit the motel needed, you sold that to them?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s right and of course we would put in these cabinets, 5 by 5, in the lobby of the motel and stock it with razor blades or hair spray and headache remedies--all these things that people traveling would need.

Mr. HUBERT. You say “we”, who was involved?

Mr. CARLIN. Mr. Bunker; Jerry.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel together?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that he was with you on November 21?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And on November 22?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; on any out-of-town trip I’ve ever been on, he’s been with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you specifically recall that you were in Houston on the day before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I’m trying to recall whether it was the day before. I know I was there a day or so before. I don’t know if it was the exact day before.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you were in Louisiana on the day the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of Louisiana?

Mr. CARLIN. We were in New Orleans at a large motel and I don’t remember the name. We did not sell that particular account, but we were there in the process of selling the account when we got the news that he had been shot and we walked from there into a club that they have in the motel and watched it on TV.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you continue your selling tour then?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to New Orleans prior to the 22d, that is to say, immediately prior?

Mr. CARLIN. We were there, I believe, the day before, part of the day before or maybe this was--what I’m thinking is that we drove all night from Houston to New Orleans. Now, this is just like walking across the street last week--you don’t remember or you don’t know that you’re going to have to remember.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember you were in New Orleans when the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first day you had been in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you had driven all night to arrive in New Orleans on that day?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And furthermore, I think you said that you had driven from Houston?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have put you then in Houston on the 21st?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you were there for the purpose of servicing certain motels?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which ones you serviced?

Mr. CARLIN. In Houston?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. The Vagabond--a very large one downtown--I think The Carriage House, and then a number of smaller ones--five or six smaller motels, which the names of them I don’t recall, but that’s still not the biggest one--the biggest account down there, and I can’t think of it. It’s downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in Houston altogether?

Mr. CARLIN. Again, I cannot be sure. I would say a day.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you were there only for the 21st or possibly the 20th too?

Mr. CARLIN. It could have been the 20th also. I’m not sure--I can’t remember the dates as to when I left or where I was at the time, but I do know I was in Houston before the President was killed and I do know I was in New Orleans the day he was killed, but the exact date, I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you start that tour from Dallas?

Mr. CARLIN. This--again--as far as the date, I cannot say either.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any other places--you started in Dallas, didn’t you?

Mr. CARLIN. I think we did. I think we went to Dallas to pick up the drugs--again--we went different ways. Sometimes we would go to Waco and Austin and then to Houston and sometimes we go from Dallas--the other highway straight down to Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been out several days?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; as far as the date that I left or the date that I was in a certain town, I cannot say--again.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what places did you service in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Actually--I can take you to them but remembering the names--it seems as though it was The Caravan and then there was one particular one we were trying to sell to which we went back about three times and it was right across from the airport on Airline Road.

Mr. HUBERT. The Hilton Inn?

Mr. CARLIN. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Was it The Hilton Inn?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Again--a day and a half or 2 days. When we took these trips, it was a mad trip--we worked all day and would drive all night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay at any place in New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; at the Sugar Bowl.

Mr. HUBERT. The Sugar Bowl Motel?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave it?

Mr. CARLIN. We stayed all night there and we left the next day after making a number of calls, we left the next day.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you left?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t. It seems as though, and you probably know better than I do--the President was killed on the day that we left. It seems as though it was this way, but I’m not sure, but probably if I had time to think it out and talk to Mr. Bunker, I could tell more specifically. I know he does have the dates that each account was serviced.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s your thought that you possibly spent the night of the 21st at the Sugar Bowl Motel in New Orleans or the night of the day the President was shot, in that motel?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall. I know we spent a night in New Orleans. I know I was there and it was raining at the time the President was killed, and I know it was in the afternoon. As far as the specific date, I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. But did you spend the night in New Orleans after the President was killed or before? Was it the night before or the night of the shooting that you spent the night?

Mr. CARLIN. I think--I am not definitely sure, but I think the day he was killed--that night we spent in New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. And the night before you drove up from Houston?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems like the night before we drove up and we checked into a motel and we changed clothes and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you were in Houston that the President visited there, would that help your memory any?

Mr. CARLIN. That the President visited in Houston?

Mr. HUBERT. That the President visited in Houston.

Mr. CARLIN. At the time that I was in Houston I don’t recall him visiting there; no. He may have, but I don’t recall it now.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. We drove back. I think we came through East Texas--we drove around--no, we couldn’t have gone through East Texas, could we?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stop any place outside of New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. Other than to eat, I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you got to Dallas?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think we came to Dallas, or did we--I really don’t know. Oh, wait a minute--it seems that we came to Dallas to pick Mitzi up.

Mr. HUBERT. To pick who up?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen--I’m sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been a Saturday night then?

Mr. CARLIN. Well.

Mr. HUBERT. It was the day after the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. We have taken so many trips and they were all so wild--I had no idea we would have to remember dates, times, or places.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was the day after the President was shot that you got back to Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I can’t even remember the circumstances under which we came back on--why we came back quickly--except that we always make every trip in a hurry.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you recall that it was on Saturday the 23rd of November, that you came to Dallas from Fort Worth with your wife, Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the date or which circumstances or what reason that I come to Dallas. Now, can you tell me what you’re talking about specifically?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that there was a question as to whether or not your wife Karen would be working at the Carousel that night?

Mr. CARLIN. I do recall it, but I do not know the date. I know one night we went over to see if she was going to work; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think from your previous deposition you fixed the time of that?

Mr. CARLIN. Over quite a bit of thinking, but as far as positively--as I told Mr. Conkle--we cannot remember dates or times, especially this far back. We had no idea we would have to remember them.

Mr. HUBERT. But that was the same night you came back or arrived back in Fort Worth from this trip to New Orleans--from New Orleans?

Mr. CARLIN. The night we went to see if she was going to work after Kennedy was killed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t think so--let me see--no; I don’t believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now you remember that Ruby shot Oswald on Sunday the 24th?

Mr. CARLIN. I know I was home on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, the night before that, you and your wife had come to Dallas and you had called Ruby and as a matter of fact, made an arrangement to borrow $5 from him?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, was it on that day that you had driven from New Orleans to Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though it would be, but I cannot say definitely whether it was or not. I really don’t remember whether that was the day.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember that you left Fort Worth to come to Dallas only a short time after having arrived back from this trip?

Mr. CARLIN. As far as my trip to Houston and New Orleans and back in relation with Ruby and the time he killed Oswald, had anyone not said something to remind me of the two, I would never put them anywhere near each other, but I guess after talking to you--I guess they were near to each other, but I cannot say the exact times that I left and what times I was in and at what time or the exact time I came back. I do know it was very near there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, first of all, let’s fix it this way--that you were definitely in New Orleans the day the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so. This is the only thing I know definitely--that I can definitely say.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that you drove back from New Orleans to Dallas on that day?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; it’s definitely possible, but as far as knowing for sure whether I did or not, I cannot say.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive back from New Orleans to Fort Worth by day or by night?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe at night, but again, we’ve made many of these trips to the same places, stay in the same places, and calling on the same accounts.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was trying to get at was whether or not you would remember this rather long trip from New Orleans to Dallas and on to Fort Worth, followed up by a trip with your wife back to Dallas on the night you borrowed the $5 and whether all that occurred on the same day, or do you recall what that day was?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, I understand what you’re getting at, but as far as saying whether it came on the same day, I can’t recall. By the way, the account I was trying to think of in Houston is The Tidelands, if this means anything. I know that we were depressed as far as the President being killed and I remember making the statement I didn’t feel much like working, but on the other hand, I don’t recall whether we left just after finding out that the President was killed, and drove back then, or we might have started during the daytime and drove back in there early in the morning and then going to bed and getting up the next day and driving to Dallas. I’m saying I don’t recall whether this was the way it was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you otherwise remember what you did on Saturday the 23d, the day after the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not. I don’t even remember where I was at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we do know that you were in Fort Worth, at least in the evening?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you came back to Dallas with your wife?

Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your memory as to whether you had been at home all day on Saturday?

Mr. CARLIN. I’m sorry--it doesn’t. I’m not evading anything, I just cannot remember the specific time of what I was doing. I know as far as the incident of going to Dallas and I know what I did when I went to New Orleans and Houston, but as far as the particular date that you’re thinking of now--I can’t recall what I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the records of the Sugar Bowl Motel would show the night you were there, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CARLIN. Definitely so.

Mr. HUBERT. And it would have been the next day that you drove back?

Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure.

Mr. HUBERT. So--no, it was not necessarily the next day--you think it might have been the next day that you drove back to Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. CARLIN. Now, we have at times worked New Orleans first and come back through Houston. I don’t think we did at this particular time, but again, we’ve made these trips a number of times, and both of us being very tired at all times and not even caring what time it was or where we were, we were trying to get the work done and get back.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were in New Orleans at the time you heard the news about the shooting of the President?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you were at some particular place?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I was in a large motel.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of that one?

Mr. CARLIN. It was on the same highway that the Hilton Inn is on but downtown, down near town. It was right on the--it’s near the Thunderbird Motel, but it’s not the Thunderbird Motel.

Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?

Mr. CARLIN. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. The Tamanaca?

Mr. CARLIN. I know The Tamanaca is right in there but I don’t recall if that’s the one. It’s a very large motel, very nice, and the restaurant sits right on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it be Motel DeVille?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I believe so--I believe that is it. At the time of hearing that the President was assassinated, I was in the manager’s office and he was busy, and we left there and walked right around the corner to a private club, which the doors were open and the TV was on, and we sat and watched the news report.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did after and how long you stayed there, and what you did after you left that place?

Mr. CARLIN. No; not exactly. We possibly could have left right after that for Fort Worth, or we might have spent the night and left the next morning. As far as saying specifically, I do not know. There have been times when I would come in from a trip and get to Dallas in time to pick Karen up, and there have been times I have come in at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning--sometimes even daylight.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how you traveled from Fort Worth to Dallas, that is, the night of the 23d?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go? How did you go?

Mr. CARLIN. You mean--was I in a car?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. Tammi True brought us.

Mr. HUBERT. She brought you from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming in?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen didn’t know if she had to go to work or not, and I believe--I’m not sure of this, but it seems as though Jack Ruby owed Tammi some money or something and she was going to change jobs and she wanted the money.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. CARLIN. We went to the club first and parked at the parking lot between the Colony and Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Nichols Garage, isn’t it?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. The door was locked, so we went to the Colony.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to drink then?

Mr. CARLIN. Did I have anything to drink?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall. I know that we were practically broke, just some change is all we had, so I don’t know whether we had anything to drink or not.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that at all?

Mr. CARLIN. No. I know for sure that at least Karen drank a coke and possibly I did--I don’t know if I had any alcohol at the time or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But whatever you did have, you paid for it?

Mr. CARLIN. Again, I don’t recall--Karen had some change in her pocket, in her purse.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would have been either you or Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe so--I’m not sure. At times we never paid for anything when we went in the club. He just gave us a drink.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?

Mr. CARLIN. Crafard?

Mr. HUBERT. Who worked at the Carousel?

Mr. CARLIN. There was a man by the name of Larry--I don’t know his last name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call him on Friday night, the 22d, the night the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. The night the President was shot?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to talk to him on the night before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think I was in town the night before he was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. No; this would have been a long distance call?

Mr. CARLIN. No. While I was in Houston, I believe I called Karen--I don’t know if it was this particular trip or not, but I did notice some receipts from the telephone company that I had that there was a call from Houston to Dallas charged to my phone. The reason I know this is so because I turned the receipts over to my CPA the other day and he was asking which calls were business and which ones were not and I had to mark them off.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall a call received by you at The Vagabond Motel in Houston at 4:38 on the morning of the 21st, and that would have been Thursday?

Mr. CARLIN. I remember I was called that morning; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who called you, do you remember?

Mr. CARLIN. I believe Karen called me.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you remember a phone call at 7:30 that same night, that’s the night prior to the shooting of the President? That’s on Thursday night--that you called the Carousel Club and spoke for approximately 3 minutes to a person named Larry?

Mr. CARLIN. No; definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not make any such call on the telephone the night before the President was killed?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know if I made a call. If I did, it was not to Larry. Now, I called at various times and trips and I do not know whether it was this one--this particular time, but I do remember calling and asking for Karen and having to wait a length of time for her to come to the phone, but as far as talking to anyone in conversation, I don’t know even who answered the phone. I can’t even say if it was that particular time that I called. I do know I have called and Andrew answered the phone, and he’s the one I thought answered it, but I don’t know exactly when it was that I called.

Mr. HUBERT. But you can be quite certain, I believe from what you have testified, that you did not visit the Carousel Club on the night the President was shot, that is, Friday night?

Mr. CARLIN. Not unless we drove back and got back in time to pick Karen up, but I don’t think we did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember going to pick her up?

Mr. CARLIN. I remember a number of times coming back from a trip and picking her up.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean then.

Mr. CARLIN. No; I do not remember picking her up that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first talked to her about the President’s death?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t recall the first time I mentioned it to her--probably as soon as I came home.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t. It would depend on what time we left from New Orleans. I could guess, if I knew what time I left New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that you left New Orleans shortly after checking out of the Sugar Bowl?

Mr. CARLIN. At times we would, but other times, to save money, we would check out and service one or two accounts and then leave.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know about this time?

Mr. CARLIN. I feel sure all of our accounts were serviced when we checked out, possibly they weren’t.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you checked out prior to hearing of the President’s death?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I think we were still in the motel at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you remember then that you went to the Sugar Bowl Motel after looking at the television concerning the President’s death?

Mr. CARLIN. I think so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that meant you would have checked out of the Sugar Bowl Motel some time in the afternoon or night of Friday, November 22?

Mr. CARLIN. I misunderstood.

Mr. HUBERT. I say--that means that you would have checked out from the Sugar Bowl Motel after the President’s death, that is to say, during the afternoon or night of the 22d?

Mr. CARLIN. Unless we did not check out and spent the night there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; in which case you would have checked out the following morning?

Mr. CARLIN. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would have been Saturday?

Mr. CARLIN. Right. The Sugar Bowl records will show that, because I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man named Pachey Nespica?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t--not to my knowledge. Wait a minute--Nespica?

Mr. HUBERT. Nespica.

Mr. CARLIN. Is he with a greeting card company?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. There is an indication that you spoke to him on November 6 and that he is in Cleveland, Ohio?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes--I don’t know him, but I do know I tried to call him. We were still trying to get a franchise on greeting cards from him.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain his number and name?

Mr. CARLIN. This--I don’t remember either. It seems as though a salesman gave it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that--about?

Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. When did I call?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I just know it was in the morning some time. I don’t remember the date that I called. I also noticed that name on the receipt from the telephone company when I was giving it to the CPA.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did your conversation with him last?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall--just as quick as I could get off the phone, knowing what it cost.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was about these greeting cards and you wanted to be able to sell?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that time?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you had obtained his name and telephone number from someone?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes, I’m trying to think where. It seems as though a salesman gave it to me either in one of the stores or possibly the American Greeting Card salesman. I called him a number of times and he might have given it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from, do you remember?

Mr. CARLIN. You mean--to Nespica?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. From my home.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an enterprise that you had with Bunker or were you alone in that?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, Bunker and I were trying to get it--well, I don’t know whether I told him, but it seems as though I told him I was trying to get it. I know we had talked about it, but I don’t know that he was in it.

Mr. HUBERT. You were working for him, he wasn’t working for you, was he?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, you can say “working for him”--it was an agreement where I helped him build his business and if I did he would give mo a job.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he pay for these telephone calls?

Mr. CARLIN. No; he did not pay for those.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he supposed to have?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, there are some calls that were made on my phone that he was supposed to pay for, but this is not one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Cameron King, can you tell us about him?

Mr. CARLIN. He was my--oh--I worked for Friendship Greetings, and at that time I wasn’t working for Cameron King, but he was my boss when I worked for Friendship Greetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Cameron King?

Mr. CARLIN. He was the sales supervisor over this area for Friendship Greetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes--from Kansas.

Mr. HUBERT. The record shows here that you called him on September 27. Do you recall that--that you called him at Farmers Branch, Tex.?

Mr. CARLIN. I called Cameron?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the times I called him--I don’t recall that that time I called him, but I do know that many, many times I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. What were these conversations about?

Mr. CARLIN. To my knowledge, I guess that would be in regard to Friendship Greetings or maybe a check that they owed me or a phone bill that they had agreed to pay that they didn’t ever pay.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you called him on September 27 twice--at 2:45 p.m. and at 5:53 p.m.?

Mr. CARLIN. On September the 27th? What day was that in regard to that particular time? Maybe I can recall the reason for calling him.

Mr. HUBERT. This was on September the 27th and September the 27th was a Friday. That’s September 27, 1963.

Mr. CARLIN. That 27th would have been after I made the trip; right?

Mr. HUBERT. After you made what trip?

Mr. CARLIN. After the trip to New Orleans or before.

Mr. HUBERT. September the 27th would have been almost 2 months before the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t recall why I would call him.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that would make you call him twice in one day?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, a number of things--I can’t recall particularly why, but if you will notice the records show that he had been called a number of times and the last few months two times a day. I worked for the man.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for him then?

Mr. CARLIN. In September?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall--I believe so--I believe I was, but I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you start with Bunker?

Mr. CARLIN. I’ve been working with Bunker for about 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be working with Cameron King and Bunker at the same time?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes. There were times--a month or 2 or 3 months that I didn’t do anything with Bunker and there were times when he wanted a few more accounts and I could financially handle them and he would come to me and want me to go sell these accounts and we would get behind in servicing, and he would come to me and we would go service them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money with it?

Mr. CARLIN. Very little with Cameron. He paid my expenses and that’s about the most of it. At times he would give us various sundries that we needed and at times he would give me $5 or $10, but that was nothing to say I made any money. It was a promise deal that I would get a percent of the company for building it and a job.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a man named Johnny Ammons [spelling] A-m-m-o-n-s?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; I know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. CARLIN. He owns a service station. The only reason I would be calling him would be trying to get a motor for a car that I owned at the time that the motor was out.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall speaking to him?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; but I don’t know exactly when.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other association with him?

Mr. CARLIN. No; only about 4 or 5 years ago I was at his home once, again, dealing with a car. He buys and sells cars.

Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to him on the 30th of October just after noon, on the 30th of October. Do you recall whether you had ever spoken to him prior to that date, or do you recall when was the last time you spoke to him prior to that date?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall the last time I spoke to him prior to that. That particular call, I think, was in regard to a head for a motor that was gone out on the one I had.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say you hadn’t spoken to him for a year? That’s what I gather?

Mr. CARLIN. I would say at least a year and maybe more.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact with him for at least a year up until that time?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with him since?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who put in the call to Ruby on Saturday night when you were asking for the $5 from him?

Mr. CARLIN. The first call--Karen went to the phone booth and made, and the second call was made from the parking lot, and I don’t recall whether it was Karen or I that called him. It might have even been Tammi that dialed the number.

Mr. HUBERT. What place was called?

Mr. CARLIN. His home--to my knowledge--I talked to him, and I assumed that he was at home.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. CARLIN. It seems as though we had to make two calls--I don’t know whether he--no, maybe it was just one and I talked to him after Karen did. Maybe that’s the way it was--I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it was at his home rather than any place else?

Mr. CARLIN. I assume it was. I did not dial the number.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did you ask him for that night or did Karen ask him for, or both?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, we didn’t ask him for the $5. We told him that we needed the money and we came over here thinking that he would be open and we could get the money, and I don’t know what he said to her, but he upset her--I don’t know whether he hung up on her and she dialed the number back or someone dialed the number back, but he upset her and I took the phone and I said something to the effect that he had been very good about letting her have money when she needed it and we appreciated it, and we were in a jam, and that we came over without any money and needed it the next day, and he said, “Well, Bruce, I don’t owe that girl anything.” He said, “I’ll give her money when she has money due,” and he said, “I don’t owe her anything,” and I said, “I realize that but we are in a jam,” and he said, “Well, let me speak to--” the man there--whatever his name was--I don’t recall whether he called him by name or not, “and I’ll tell him to give you $5.” He said it in a tone of voice as though he was upset and mad because we had called. Oh, he said, “I can’t come down there, I’ve got people here and company,” and I did hear people talking.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was reluctant to give you the $5, to lend you the $5?

Mr. CARLIN. Not so much reluctant. He offered it, but I didn’t think to ask him to let us borrow the money from somebody there and pay him back. I didn’t think of that, he did.

Mr. HUBERT. But his position was that he didn’t owe any money, so he was lending the money?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, he owed it; I believe. Again--I’m not sure, but he said, “I don’t owe that girl a thing.” In other words--“I’ve done enough for her,” and I don’t mean as far as money. He said, “I’ve done her enough favors and I don’t owe her anything.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t owe her the obligation of advancing her salary?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; that’s what I mean, and then he said--again, disgusted, but like he didn’t mind, that he just didn’t want to talk. He said, “Let me talk to the guy there and I’ll get him to give you $5 and I can give it back to him.”

Mr. HUBERT. And you took it to mean then that that was all he was going to let you have on the advanced salary, is that right?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t know whether he said it to me or to her, but he said to call him tomorrow and he would send us some more--I believe was the terms he used, or call him tomorrow he would send us some.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he explain why he wanted you to call him tomorrow or why he would be in a position to give you some on Sunday and not on Saturday?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he said he was busy and didn’t have time to come down there to give it to us then. He said he had company.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did ask for more money on Saturday night than the $5?

Mr. CARLIN. I asked for no specific amount. Karen may have the first time she talked to him or at that time before I started talking to him, but I asked for no specific amount.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give any consideration to borrowing from your family or friends or other people rather than Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. Well, yes; I probably could have except for two things: First, I had no car to go somewhere to borrow it, and second, it was fairly late at night, and third, I was in Dallas where I could not get back to borrow money that late at night.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you made the call from the garage, but you had previously been at the Colony Club, had you not?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you make the call from the Colony Club?

Mr. CARLIN. I remember now--the call was made from the Colony Club and she said that he was very upset and rude to her and we went back down to see--it seems as though Andy was in here somewhere, at least he was supposed to be at the club or something--that’s what he said. At least, Karen told me he said Andrew was supposed to be at the club. After upsetting her and hanging the phone up, we went down to see if the club was open and we knocked on the door and no one was there, and we went back to the parking lot again and called because it was downstairs and the Colony was upstairs and farther away, and much more noise.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connection with an outfit called Banker’s Drug Co. or Bankers’ Drugs?

Mr. CARLIN. Bankers’ Drugs--not to my knowledge. You might tell me some more about them, if I did?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that when you were servicing these little motels, these setups in motels, that some of it was with drugs like aspirin and so forth?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; definitely so. That’s what we did.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that refresh your recollection or refresh your memory of that concerning any possible connection you had with Bankers’ Drugs?

Mr. CARLIN. I realize that that would be the only way that I would have a connection with Bankers’ Drugs.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it mean anything to you now?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Southwestern Drugs?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; we’ve done business with Southwestern Drugs.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that--a wholesale house?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. CARLIN. There’s one here in Fort Worth. There is a little drug company in Houston that we bought a number of things from because we ran short, but I don’t know if it was at this particular time, or if this was the name of the company.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any dealings with selling any sort of other drugs of miscellaneous character to Jack Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. Again--the question, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any occasion to sell any kind of miscellaneous drugs of that sort to Jack Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I certainly did not, and I don’t know if you are referring to this or not, but we handle nothing in the line of narcotics.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I’m not talking about that.

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the line of business that you were in selling these sundry items?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about aspirin and things like that?

Mr. CARLIN. No. I sold none to Ruby. I don’t know if you might be referring to this particular time, but at some time or other someone said they needed something, they said that they were out of something and I got something out of the car and gave it to someone, and I don’t know if at this particular time if it was Jack Ruby or somebody in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the Carousel?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know--I just remember that Jerry said, “Why don’t you get something out of the car and give it to he or she”--or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Jerry Bunker?

Mr. CARLIN. I think that’s the time. Again, it could have been here in Fort Worth. I recall that he did send me to the car to get something for somebody that was out of something. It might have been hair oil or something.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether it was Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t

Mr. HUBERT. Did Tammi True stay with you’all all the time on Saturday night?

Mr. CARLIN. All the time we were in Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall whether she left for any reason or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he drive you back?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether she picked you up or you met her some place to drive back?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall, but I don’t think so. I think we drove back right from the parking lot--from the garage.

Mr. HUBERT. And you came in from Fort Worth and went directly to the garage?

Mr. CARLIN. To the best of my knowledge, I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that indicate to you that Tammi True was with you all during the time?

Mr. CARLIN. Unless she would have gotten up during the time we were in the Colony and maybe talked to someone or something of that nature, but to the best of my knowledge I saw her periodically all night long and I didn’t pay much attention to what she was doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ralph Paul that night?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall whether I did or not--I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. You know him, don’t you?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Tammi True with you, did she see him, to your knowledge?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know whether she did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen or Kathy Kay on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23 or 24?

Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay sounds familiar, but Harry Olsen, I can’t place.

Mr. HUBERT. Harry Olsen was formerly a member of the Dallas Police Department and he subsequently married Kathy Kay.

Mr. CARLIN. Kathy Kay then is the girl, the blonde-headed girl that worked at the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Of course, you couldn’t have seen her on Friday, I take it, from what you tell me?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t recall seeing her--in fact, I don’t recall seeing her since--from the time--well, before I left, I don’t recall seeing her.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you didn’t see her after the President was shot?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Olsen?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby had called him on Saturday night and had talked possibly about doing something to Lee Harvey Oswald or to the Weinsteins?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t know Weinstein. No; he did not call--I mean--he did not tell me he called.

Mr. HUBERT. Paul never told you he had received a call from Ruby on Saturday night?

Mr. CARLIN. I never conversed with Paul other than “Hello, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. So, the answer then is that Paul did not tell you that Ruby had spoken to him on Saturday night?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby tell you what time to call him on Sunday with reference to getting the rest of the money?

Mr. CARLIN. I don’t believe he did. If he did, I did not go by what he said. I called when I got up.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been arranged that the money would be sent by wire?

Mr. CARLIN. I’m not positive. It seems as though he told Karen this or she led me to believe this by something she said.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who it was that used to pick up Karen and Little Lynn, I think was her stage name, too?

Mr. CARLIN. Pick her up in a cab?

Mr. HUBERT. In a cab. Do you know anything about that?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t--at what time was she picked up, after she got off?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes--possibly. You don’t know anything about anybody picking her up?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were your closest friends among the strippers, other than Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. Karen.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than Karen?

Mr. CARLIN. The only one that I knew personally was Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was Karen’s closest friend among the strippers--among those girls?

Mr. CARLIN. I would guess Tammi True. She didn’t get along with anybody too well to tell you the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARLIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve seen pictures of him, I take it?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you’ve ever seen him any place?

Mr. CARLIN. His face looks familiar, but as many times as you have seen a picture like that, you could say the same thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?

Mr. CARLIN. Was I ever a member?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or the Socialist Workers party?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever participated in any political activities?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. CARLIN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Bernard Weissman?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I didn’t know him. I had heard of him and recalled it after an FBI agent asked me about him.

Mr. HUBERT. But prior to the time that the FBI agent asked you about him, did you know anything about him at all?

Mr. CARLIN. Yes; he was a man who put the leaflets out or an ad in the paper or something, before Kennedy came to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew that before Kennedy came to Dallas, or have you found it out afterwards?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I believe I found it out from the News--I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see any of the Bernard Weissman signs prior to that?

Mr. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Carlin, I have marked for purposes of identification two photos by placing on the reverse side of them the following words: “Dallas, Texas, August 24, 1964”, and----

The REPORTER. You mean, “Fort Worth, Tex.”?

Mr. HUBERT. I do mean Fort Worth, and I am scratching “Dallas” out and putting “Fort Worth” there, and I have previously marked “Dallas” on all of these pictures, but I have scratched it out and entered above it “Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, Deposition of Bruce Carlin”, and to which I have signed my name.

These are FBI pictures of J. D. Tippit and I ask you whether or not you recognize that man?

Mr. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No; I do not recognize him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you’ve ever seen him before?

Mr. CARLIN. I couldn’t say. I’ve been shown these pictures once before.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also marked--I had marked them “Dallas” first and have scratched that out and have marked them “Fort Worth, Tex., August 24, 1964, Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4, Deposition of Bruce Carlin”, and to which I have signed my name. These pictures, of course, purport to be various views of Bernard Weissman, also being FBI pictures, and I ask you if you have ever seen that man before?

Mr. CARLIN. This man does look familiar as I told the FBI agent, but I cannot say if I’ve seen him or where I’ve seen him, if I had.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him in connection with Ruby?

Mr. CARLIN. I can’t say--it just seems as though I have seen this man before.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember where?

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t even remember if I’ve seen him. I just know he looks familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I thank you. That’s all.

Mr. CARLIN. Very good.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to your coming into this room today, I don’t believe we had any conversation, and therefore I ask you whether you concur that everything that has passed between us has been in this room since the reporter has been taking it down?

Mr. CARLIN. That’s right. I would like to say this, if I may?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CARLIN. I have told all that I know. As far as I’m concerned, my wife has told all that she knows. I don’t believe she knows any more. Because of this complete or whole situation, I have lost one job and lost other jobs in regard to it, maybe not for the same reason but I knew why.

Now, I’ve got a living to make and a family to support and if there is anything else that anybody wants to talk to me about, I wish they would get it over with now, because it’s a matter of what or whether I’m going to eat or my family is going to eat the next meal and I should be out working today and I’ve lost another day, and I’ve been as cooperative as I can be.

I know no more. I don’t care about Ruby. I have a family to support and it all just sums up that I’m just tired of the FBI and Secret Service, and I know they’re doing their jobs, but it’s hard to live and live normally with the situation keeping coming back up like it is.

Now, if a man goes to jail, he pays his debt to society and he’s out and should be left alone. Karen probably should not have been working where she was working, but she is not working now and I’m trying to support her and a baby and I would like to be left alone.

If I could tell all I know, which I have told--I would like to get this over with and quit having to come back up here and be embarrassed by my landlord being asked by the Federal agents about where I am and questions about me and my friends.

I know it is a job that had to be done, and I feel like I’ve been questioned and investigated, and I don’t care how much they investigate me, but this is enough, and I think it’s time now to be left alone.

Mr. HUBERT. We certainly appreciate your feelings. Let me make this statement to you--the fact that you’ve been recalled is by no means for the purpose of harassing you.

Mr. CARLIN. Oh, I understand that.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s just simply that sometimes little points develop that we didn’t know about at prior times, and it’s just an effort to do it right.

Mr. CARLIN. I understand that. I know everyone is doing their job and I realize that I told you things today that I didn’t remember the first time I was here.

Mr. HUBERT. With respect to your loss of pay, of course, I don’t think the Government can make that up to you, but there is a per diem which you are entitled to for appearing----

Mr. CARLIN. No; I don’t expect them to.

Mr. HUBERT. And if you will check with Mr. Conkle of the Secret Service, I think he can arrange to have you receive the per diem, so you may check with him. I don’t know whether it will be material or not but you might check with him.

Mr. CARLIN. Well, I’m not asking anything from the Government. I know I had a job to do and I think I’ve told you all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. But under the law you may be entitled to some stipend, and we want you to have it.

Mr. CARLIN. Well, I have contacted my lawyer here again and he said, “Go again and try to explain to them the situation that you’re in.” It has made it hard. I was making good money up until this started and it seems that I can’t stay anywhere long that they don’t recognize her, or an agent is asking questions, or the word gets around as to who I am and who my wife is, and this always means--well, it’s jeopardizing my family, and it’s nobody’s fault but ours, but we’re trying to live it down and we can’t do it if things like this keep coming up.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m sure the Commission will take that into account. I don’t know whether you will be interrogated again--probably not--but I can assure you that if it should come about, it is because it would be absolutely necessary.

Mr. CARLIN. Okay.

Mr. HUBERT. We really appreciate your position and thank you very much.

Mr. CARLIN. Okay, sir. Glad to have seen you.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BRUCE CARLIN

The testimony of Mrs. Bruce Carlin was taken at 1:40 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Bruce Carlin.

Mrs. Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what pertinent facts you may know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and about his operations and associates and so forth.

Mrs. Carlin, there has been a letter addressed to you, but apparently it went to the wrong address, and this letter asked you to appear here, and of course the letter therefore was not received.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness who appears has a right to have a 3-day written notice before they actually appear. The rules also provide that you may waive that written notice, and if you are willing to testify now without that 3-day written notice, you may do so. Of course, you can claim the privilege of having the 3-day notice or you can waive it and go ahead and testify now. Is it your wish to waive it and testify now without the 3 days’ written notice?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are Mrs. Bruce Carlin, is that so?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a stage name, I think, of what?

Mrs. CARLIN. Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think your name is also Karen?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s (spelling) K-a-r-e-n?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. There are only a few questions I need to ask you. Is your father alive?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mrs. CARLIN. Chattanooga, Tenn.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any member of your family who was killed by violence?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. No brothers or father-in-law or anyone of that sort?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so. I haven’t heard from any of them in quite a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of anybody that was murdered?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are your mother and father still living together?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Has your mother remarried?

Mrs. CARLIN. No--I won’t say definitely no, because I don’t know. I really don’t know if she has remarried or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know of any person who was killed by violence in your family?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know Kathy Kay, of course?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that her full name?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know her full name. All I knew her by was Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Harry Olsen?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mrs. CARLIN. Her boy friend--I believe that was his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he then a member of the police force, the Dallas police force?

Mrs. CARLIN. He was supposed to be; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether they have married or not?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see her?

Mrs. CARLIN. Right before--I guess--yes, it was right before the President was killed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was the night--the last night we worked. I believe it was a Thursday night was the last night we worked.

Mr. HUBERT. Thursday was November 21st. Where did you see her?

Mrs. CARLIN. At the place--at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. She was a dancer there?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Harry Olsen there then?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t think so. I saw Harry after that.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mrs. CARLIN. One night he came up to the club--no, it wasn’t up to the club. One night I walked down--I was walking to the bus station and this little parking lot right next door, he was standing inside, so I went inside to ask him about Kathy, to ask how she was and everything.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the shooting of the President was this that you saw Harry Olsen?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it after Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand from your testimony then, that you did not see Kathy Kay or Harry Olsen on Friday, November 22 when the President was shot, or the next day, Saturday, or the day after that--on Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I never did see Kathy again.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen her then since this Thursday night, the 21st?

Mrs. CARLIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And Harry Olsen only once and that was after Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When the club had reopened?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And when Mr. Paul was operating it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have seen pictures of Lee Oswald, I suppose?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I never paid any attention to them. I don’t remember what he even looked like.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; as I told you before, I never did see him. I saw him somewhere but I wouldn’t say--it was either somebody that looked like him or I had seen him somewhere, but I couldn’t say where because I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you saw him, you mean you saw a man whom you think resembles the pictures that you have seen of Lee Oswald since?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been at the club?

Mrs. CARLIN. As I said before, it could have been, but I don’t, know for sure. I won’t say for sure. I just know that it was either him or someone that resembled him--I’ve seen somewhere. It could have been just about anywhere.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it then that you are really uncertain as to whether the man you think was or possibly resembled Oswald was in fact Oswald, you’re not sure about that?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know Oswald; no.

Mr. HUBERT. You just think that there was a resemblance between the man you recollect and the pictures of Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do not remember--you are not positive about it being the same man?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor do you remember where you saw him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No--I saw so many different faces. I never paid any attention to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way--would it be most likely if you saw such a man, would it have been in the club or could it have been some place else?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, most likely it would have been there at the club or where I went to eat around the club, because that’s about the only places I’ve been--walking from the club to where I eat, the drugstore, and walking back.

Mr. HUBERT. This man that you saw that you think resembles the pictures of Oswald, or maybe did, you would have seen either at the club or at this drugstore near the club?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At the drugstore where you had supper?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Secret Service agent by the name of Roger Warner?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember him. I’ve talked to so many.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember telling any Secret Service agent that you had seen Oswald at the Carousel Club?

Mrs. CARLIN. No: I remember telling them the same thing I told you. That’s all I’ve ever said, that it could have been but I’m not going to say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a positive identification?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And if it’s so reported, it’s simply a misstatement in the report?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; I would say so because the only thing I have said is that it could possibly be, but I’m not going to say for sure, but the man resembled Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell any Secret Service agent or any Government official at all that you thought that Oswald and Ruby were connected in some way?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I can never remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember speaking to anyone about that--the possibilities of their being connected?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes; I spoke to several people at the club--the Secret Service and the FBI--so many of them.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the possibility of a connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t remember ever saying anything like that. I’ve said it before but it was only hearsay or what I believed myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you believe yourself?

Mrs. CARLIN. Myself?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, maybe I shouldn’t say. I don’t think I really should because it’s just one person’s opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have anything to base it upon?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; it’s just my own opinion--nothing that I saw, you know, for myself. It’s just my own opinion by the way people talk and by him, Jack Ruby, himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was that about Jack Ruby himself that would support a possible connection between him and Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. Just the way he was--the things I’ve read in the newspapers and things about him I saw for myself; people he would talk to; always having people in his office; and things like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That leads you to form that conclusion?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; for myself.

Mr. HUBERT. But what is the conclusion you form from that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, that he had connections with Lee Harvey Oswald. This is my own opinion. There’s nothing to base it on, except my own opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean that because you saw these people going into the office and so forth?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and because of the things the newspapers have said, and the neighbors--the way that they talk about him and the things that they have said. It’s just the things that have been put in my mind that leave doubt there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, aside from what other people have told you or what you read in the paper, do you have anything that you can tell us that you know yourself that would lead you to form the conclusion that there was a connection between them?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; nothing that I saw or nothing that 1 heard, or anyone I saw even was there that I could hear talking, or anything--no. It’s been so long ago I can’t remember very much any more.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that during the course of the Ruby trial when you were waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some people got out of the jail, and I think they passed right near by you, I believe?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what you screamed or said?

Mrs. CARLIN. “Oh, my God, they’re after me.”

Mrs. HUBERT. Yes--what made you believe that “they” were after you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I ever got to court.

Mr. HUBERT. Who do you think was going to kill you?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know exactly who or why. I just felt that I was going to get killed.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, who did you mean by “they,” when you said “they” were after you?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, there was a man that was running after me--there was two of them, and I saw some kind of little weapon, it looked like, but I don’t remember very much.

Mr. HUBERT. So, when you used the word “they,” you meant those people there who were escaping?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have in mind some other group of people who were after you?

Mrs. CARLIN. No--well, it all goes back to where I used to work. I had already been threatened by Pat Kirkwood and I didn’t know they were escaping from the jail when I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Pat Kirkwood?

Mrs. CARLIN. He owns the Cellar and I had already been threatened by him. My life had been threatened by him.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did he do that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was--he had some publicity people down there--television and cameras and so on, and we never got along too well because I told the police, the vice squad about him and identified some policemen that were being paid off by him and everything, and of course, he had so many friends he got out of it real easy, but then he hated me for what I had done.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the President was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, that was before, and so after the President was shot, he found out what was going on and he called me on the telephone, and he says, “I want you down here in about 20 minutes,” and I said, “Kirkwood, I don’t want to have anything to do with you or your plans, just leave me alone.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; after I went to court that first time, the bond hearing, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mrs. CARLIN. After I went to court, he says, “I want you down here,” and I said, “Well, I’m not coming down.” He called me back in about 20 minutes and he said, “Why aren’t you down here?” He said, “I’ll send a cab up after you.”

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then?

Mrs. CARLIN. I was at home in bed, I wasn’t feeling too good, and my husband was out working. So, right after he called me--I was still on the telephone, and my husband walked in, and he had just finished saying, “If you’re not down here, you won’t be around too long,” and then my husband walked in and I let him have the telephone and they talked then.

Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband say?

Mrs. CARLIN. My husband told him I wasn’t coming down and if he gave me any trouble he would tell the police about it, and he said, “Well, I’ll see her on the way to the club and I’ll see that she never makes it inside the door.”

We moved from the apartments that we were in that Kirkwood knew we were living in--we moved from there and Kirkwood didn’t know anything about it, and he went looking for me over there and asked my landlord about me and where to find me, and then he was supposed to meet me up at the Carousel Club and knock me out so I couldn’t get in--he was going to see that I never made it, and he never did show up. He called the colored man that took care of the place. He called him and told him to tell me that he had called, and I don’t remember what all he said to the colored man, but he called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he again?

Mrs. CARLIN. Pat Kirkwood.

Mr. HUBERT. He operates the Cellar, you say? That’s a nightclub?

Mrs. CARLIN. It’s a beatnik club here in town on Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from him since?

Mrs. CARLIN. I haven’t heard from him--no; not since then.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been last January?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you remember the Friday night that the President was shot, did you go to work that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. CARLIN. I got a telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. Who from?

Mrs. CARLIN. Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; the colored man.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time of day was that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, I don’t remember--I have no idea. It’s been so long.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Larry Crafard that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if I did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. You know who Larry Crafard was?

Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the lights.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mrs. CARLIN. The guy that worked the spotlights and things--I don’t know his last name, but I knew him by Larry.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall whether you called him that night?

Mrs. CARLIN. No: I don’t recall. If I did, it was to see if I was coming to work or something, because I don’t remember it. It must not have been very important.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you came into Dallas on Saturday night with your husband and Tammi True?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had your husband gotten back that day, do you remember how much before you’all came into Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. I didn’t understand.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come to Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, it was right before working time and we started about 8:30. It was right before that.

Mr. HUBERT. No; how long had your husband been home when you started out to go to Dallas?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know--he come in and out so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether he had been on a trip that weekend?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t even remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in town when the President was killed, do you remember that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes--well, I don’t know. I don’t know whether he was or not, I believe he was, though.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he used to go out on trips, didn’t he?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes; he used to go out and stay almost the whole night working motels with Mr. Bunker, and sometimes they would be gone for 2 or 3 days, but I don’t remember at that time where he was.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you two photos which have been identified as Exhibit No. 1 in the Deposition of Bruce Carlin, and ask you if you can identify the person who is represented by those pictures?

Mrs. CARLIN (examining instruments referred to). No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know an Officer J. D. Tippit, the man who was shot by Oswald?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I don’t. I don’t know. I won’t say, because there was--oh, I don’t know how many used to come in and out and I was usually on stage and the lights were blinding me.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you don’t recognize the man who is shown in the pictures marked Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two pictures also that have been identified as Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin and ask you if you recognize the man who is shown in those pictures?

Mrs. CARLIN. This is the same one that they showed me a couple of days ago and I said that I wasn’t for sure, but he resembles the man that took over after Jack went to jail. There was a Paul and he worked the cash register, and there was a man that resembled him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that was a man employed at the Carousel, a Mr. Paul, after Ruby was put in jail, this Mr. Paul took over and there was a man employed there by this Mr. Paul, and you think that the man who is represented in pictures 3 and 4 looks something like that?

Mrs. CARLIN. Oh, yes. He was a little bit older, the man was, but it resembles him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know what his name was?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anybody talk to him?

Mrs. CARLIN. No. It was just “Hello” and “Goodnight.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long was he there?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know. Like I say, everything has been so long ago and there’s so many people that asked me so many things--I don’t even remember, but I talked to him one night about--I guess--about 30 minutes or an hour and he’s supposed to have a family in Los Angeles, Calif., and two children, and that’s about all that he ever told me about himself.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know his name?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he told me, but I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Bernard Weissman refresh your memory in any way?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that’s the name of the man that was there?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You’re not sure that this was the man?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the man represented in Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When you called Ruby on Saturday night to ask him for money where did you call? What number did you call--home?

Mrs. CARLIN. At his home. Tammi True gave me the number and I called it. It was supposed to be at his apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember if he answered the phone the first time. You see, I called twice, but I think the first time--I think there was someone else that answered the phone and called him to the phone. Like I said, everything has been so long ago.

Mr. HUBERT. And the first time I think he told you he couldn’t lend you any money, isn’t that it?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That call was made where?

Mrs. CARLIN. To his home.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean--where from?

Mrs. CARLIN. It was made from the Colony Club next door at the telephone there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you called him again a little while later?

Mrs. CARLIN. And he said, “I’ll meet you down at the club” and he never did show up so I called back.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you wait between the two calls?

Mrs. CARLIN. About 30 or 40 minutes. He said it would take about 40 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you called the second time, you called him the second time?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes, and he said he wouldn’t be able to make it, that he was busy right then, and to get the man on the telephone at the carlot, which I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you ask him for?

Mrs. CARLIN. I asked him for enough money to get home, at least.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the call the next day?

Mrs. CARLIN. He told me to call back some time the next day and tell him how much I had to have, and which I did. I called back, but the only reason I called as early as I did--we saw on television what had happened. Well, I called first--we got up about--I don’t remember--I think it was about 9 or 9:30 or something like that, and my husband told me I’d better call him, and so I called.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was going to send the money by Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; he didn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. The first time you called on Sunday morning?

Mrs. CARLIN. He told me he was going to send it by Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday night he didn’t tell you how he was going to send it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When you called him on Sunday, did he suggest Western Union or did you?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; I didn’t suggest anything, neither did he. He just said “I’m going to send it. How shall I send it?”

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you?

Mrs. CARLIN. He said, “How shall I send it?” I said, “Send it in Karen Bennett, because that’s the only identification I have.”

Mr. HUBERT. But it was his idea to send it by Western Union?

Mrs. CARLIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you be sure about that, or perhaps you suggested that he send it, isn’t that right?

Mrs. CARLIN. I won’t say for sure about anything. I’m not for sure about nothing any more. I could have said, “That will be the quickest way” or “How are you going to send it?” I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the method of sending the money discussed on Saturday night?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t believe so--no. I just think he said, “Call me tomorrow and tell me how much you need.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well, didn’t it occur to you that the money would have to be gotten to you some way on Sunday?

Mrs. CARLIN. Well, I thought perhaps that I could tell him how much I would need and then Tammi was going to have to make another trip over there and she could pick it up for me.

Mr. HUBERT. You had those thoughts at that time?

Mrs. CARLIN. At that time, yes, but then when he said he would send it, that was all.

Mr. HUBERT. It was his idea, wasn’t it?

Mrs. CARLIN. I don’t remember, whether it was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you made arrangements with Tammi to go get it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; you see, he owed Tammi some money and she had quit and she was going to get the money. Well, that night she couldn’t get the money, because, like I said, he didn’t show down at the club so I figured she had to make another trip.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to her about it?

Mrs. CARLIN. No; she had to get some gowns and things out of the club, so I thought perhaps she would go and get it. I hadn’t even discussed it with her or anything. She didn’t discuss it with me, she just said she wanted to get her money and her gowns and she was very persistent, and she needed it to go to Oklahoma City, I believe, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mrs. Carlin, in ending this deposition, let me ask you if there has been any conversations between us except that which has gone into the record here today?

Mrs. CARLIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming down.

Mrs. CARLIN. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL

The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 2:25 p.m., on August 24, 1964, at the Federal Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.

Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and so forth.

Now, I believe you are appearing here by virtue of a telephone call asking you to come, is that correct?

Mr. PAUL. Today?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Yes; for today--on Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. You were called on Friday to appear here today?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You received no letter?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; today.

Mr. HUBERT. That letter was received today?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a letter from Mr. Rankin, was it?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness has the right to a 3-day notice, actually dated from the date of the notice, but in any case, the rules do provide that any witness may waive that 3-day written notice, and I ask you now if you are going to waive the 3-day written notice and proceed to testify now, today?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you rise and let me administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your name is Ralph Paul?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And your address is what, sir?

Mr. PAUL. 1936 East Abrams.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Arlington?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I have a number of questions to ask you here and I think they will just simply flow along. Do you recall whether you received any telephone calls from Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant on Saturday, November the 23d, that is to say, the day after the President was shot?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not receive any calls?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any calls from Andy Armstrong?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any calls on that day from any of Eva Grant’s friends?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any call from Ruby that day?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. PAUL. Well, one was--I think--at 6 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then?

Mr. PAUL. At the place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s at the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He called you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where he was calling from?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know where he was calling from?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to him?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, about 3 minutes--4 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the conversation about, do you recall?

Mr. PAUL. Just telling me that he closed the club down for 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, are you speaking of Friday night or Saturday night?

Mr. PAUL. Both. He said, did I see the ad in the paper, and I said, “No, I don’t get Saturday’s paper.”

Mr. HUBERT. This was on Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; on Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to him on Friday night?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Hadn’t he told you on Friday night that he was going to close down the club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But he called you again on Saturday night about 6 o’clock, and did he tell you the same thing?

Mr. PAUL. No; he asked me if I saw it in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what that call was about?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there was no other subject of conversation?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on Saturday night, November 23, did you see a man by the name of Bruce Carlin?

Mr. PAUL. I didn’t see anybody on Saturday night because I was working.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, that wouldn’t necessarily prevent you from seeing him at your place of business, sir? Did you see Mr. Carlin?

Mr. PAUL. Carlin--who is Bruce Carlin?

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know a man by the name of Bruce Carlin?

Mr. PAUL. The name doesn’t sound familiar to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Karen Bennett, Little Lynn?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps it will refresh your memory if I said to you that Bruce Carlin is her husband?

Mr. PAUL. I never knew him by name.

Mr. HUBERT. He’s a blonde boy?

Mr. PAUL. I know him now when you say it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Tammi True?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s her stage name and her real name is Nancy Powell?

Mr. PAUL. Yes--Powell.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her on Saturday night, November 23?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or at any time on Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, going back a little further to Wednesday night, which would have been the 20th of November, two nights before the President was shot--I would like to ask you if you saw Ruby on that night; Jack Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. I really don’t remember. I saw him on Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him on Thursday night?

Mr. PAUL. I saw him on Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a telephone call from Ruby to you at 9:32 on Wednesday night?

Mr. PAUL. That’s when I worked straight through.

Mr. HUBERT. Sir?

Mr. PAUL. That’s when I worked straight through at the place.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked straight through on that Wednesday night?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you then at 9:32?

Mr. PAUL. I guess. He called me all the time. He called me every night.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the nature of that call?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He called you every night, you say?

Mr. PAUL. Mostly every night--if I didn’t come around, he called.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he call you for?

Mr. PAUL. Just to tell me how business is or if I didn’t come around, he just wanted some questions answered about what he should do.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a telephone call from him on Thursday night, November 21, at about 6:40 p.m.?

Mr. PAUL. Maybe he did, but I told him I was going to be in.

Mr. HUBERT. You told him you were coming in to Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in?

Mr. PAUL. What?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in to Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him then?

Mr. PAUL. Yes sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your seeing him, what did you do?

Mr. PAUL. I always came in to Dallas when I went to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything special about that night?

Mr. PAUL. Nothing special--I think we went to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. PAUL. I’m not sure whether it was the Egyptian Lounge or Delmonico’s.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did have supper that night with Jack?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you went back to the club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Laurence Meyers?

Mr. PAUL (no response).

Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer, sir?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I don’t think I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a man with Ruby or being introduced by Ruby to a man called Laurence Meyers from outside of Dallas? He was not from Texas at all. On that night he was with a young lady?

Mr. PAUL. Jack introduced me to so many people I don’t know who, what, or when.

Mr. HUBERT. The name Laurence Meyers means nothing to you?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a man with a rather younger girl as a companion on that night?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know the man--I can’t think I’ve seen him if I don’t know the man.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I know that you might not know his name but you might remember seeing a man in the company of a much younger girl?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on Thursday night, the 21st, when you had dinner with Jack, did he discuss the President’s visit the next day?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?

Mr. PAUL. Not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no conversation between you at all about the forthcoming visit, is that right?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Hyman Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. Hyman Ruby or Rubenstein. I think his name is actually Rubenstein--Jack’s brother?

Mr. PAUL. The one in Chicago?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. I met him one time.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. PAUL. He came over to the place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. It was before the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. PAUL. No; it was after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. PAUL. It was after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the first time you had ever met him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It would be wrong to say therefore that you might have met him on the Friday before the assassination of the President, that is to say, 1 week before--in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. One week before?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Earl Norman?

Mr. PAUL. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman.

Mr. PAUL. Earl Norman--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a fight with Earl Norman that night, the week before the assassination?

Mr. PAUL. He had a fight but I don’t know when--not a fight--he told him to leave the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Who--Jack did?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t pass any blows between them?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. You witnessed the thing?

Mr. PAUL. I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. And Hyman was not there?

Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. You’ve met Hyman only once in your life?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was after the assassination?

Mr. PAUL. At the place of business. I know of that for sure because I never saw him before in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your general night off--usually?

Mr. PAUL. The night off was Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your night off on November 21 when you had dinner with Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was my night off--Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you at the Carousel on Tuesday, the 19th of November 1963?

Mr. PAUL. I might have been. I can’t recall whether I was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it refresh your memory to ask you if you remember whether that was the occasion that Tammi True quit the Carousel there after some argument with Jack?

Mr. PAUL. I know it was one of those days, but I can’t recall exactly what date.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. Well, to tell the truth, I really don’t know. She said something and he said something and I wasn’t there at the time when it all happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You came there later?

Mr. PAUL. What?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you come there later?

Mr. PAUL. I came later--I think I did--I’m not sure. I wouldn’t be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you saw Tammi True the night she had this trouble with Jack and quit or was fired or whatever it was?

Mr. PAUL. Well, not actually--I didn’t actually see Tammi True because I wasn’t talking with her at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean there had been some difference between you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were not on speaking terms?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that last?

Mr. PAUL. Well, it lasted about 3 or 4 weeks, and the first time she called me was when she saw it on TV that Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had not spoken to Tammi True for about 3 or 4 weeks prior to November 24?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Friday your night off, at that time?

Mr. PAUL. No; they never had a night off.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. PAUL. They worked 7 days.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about them, I mean yourself?

Mr. PAUL. What Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. Friday the 21st, was that a night off? Was Friday normally a night off?

Mr. PAUL. Friday wasn’t the 21st.

Mr. HUBERT. The 22nd--was Friday normally your night off at that time?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; Friday was not my night off.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not your night off?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not at that time?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on the night of the day that the President was shot, that’s Friday, November the 22nd, were you working?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Until what time?

Mr. PAUL. Until 12 o’clock. I got out of there about 12:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You got out of there, you say, about 12:30?

Mr. PAUL. About 12:30--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And went home?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the records indicate that there was a call to you by Jack Ruby about 1:15 p.m. on Friday, November 22. Do you remember anything about that?

Mr. PAUL. At 1 p.m. in the afternoon?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes--1:15.

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s when he told me about the President being shot.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know it prior to that time?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I listened on the radio because everybody in the place was just standing there and I just put the radio on--they called me and told me that the President was shot, and just a little later, he called me too. He says--oh--I told you that before. It was a terrible thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had been at the Dallas Morning News that day, the day the President was shot?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t really recall that he told me that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think he called you again, according to the records, about 2:43 on Friday afternoon?

Mr. PAUL. At home.

Mr. HUBERT. You had left?

Mr. PAUL. I had left the place--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I told him I was watching television.

Mr. HUBERT. You told him that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you about closing the club then?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask whether he should do it--did he ask you whether he should do it or did he tell you he was going to?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t tell me. He said, “I’m going to close down for 3 days, what are you going to do?” I said, “I’ve got to keep open, I’ve got a restaurant.” I told you that before.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention calling Gruber--Marty Gruber?

Mr. PAUL. He’s dead.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention having called him at that time--he was dead at that time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes--Marty Goble or Grable or something like that. He died in Chicago the night of the fight of the first--this and the champion fight--Marty Grable.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, this is Gimble or Gruble?

Mr. PAUL. Oh--Marty Gruble--I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he mention Marty Gruble or any person named Gruble?

Mr. PAUL. No; I wouldn’t know who he is if he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that may be so, but what I want to know is whether he mentioned that name to you?

Mr. PAUL. No; I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby mention to you on that Friday night or on that Friday afternoon in any of those calls that he was going to the synagogue that night?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall whether it was that evening or late at night that he told me that he went to the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t invite you to go with him?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t go to the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. I know, but did he invite you to go with him?

Mr. PAUL. No; he knows I’ll be working.

Mr. HUBERT. He called you about 8:40 that evening, didn’t he?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were working then?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had just gone back to work?

Mr. PAUL. No--yes, I came back to work. I come back to work at 5 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the nature of that call was, that’s on Friday night?

Mr. PAUL. That’s when he told me he was going to close it down for 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I thought he had mentioned that to you in the call during the afternoon?

Mr. PAUL. No; in the afternoon he didn’t mention about closing it down, but that night--early in the evening, I think, is when he told me he was going to close it down. I think it was when he called me at 6 o’clock that evening, when I first came back to the place.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently there were three calls on Friday, is that correct? There was one right after the President was shot and one at about 2:45 or a quarter to 3, and then another one later?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember there were three calls?

Mr. PAUL. I remember five calls.

Mr. HUBERT. On Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When were the other two?

Mr. PAUL. He called me at home.

Mr. HUBERT. What time were the other two?

Mr. PAUL. About a quarter to 11 and I told him I wasn’t feeling well, and----

Mr. HUBERT. What did he want you to do?

Mr. PAUL. Nothing--he just told me that he was over at his sister’s house and he went to the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were at home at that time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he called you once more?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time was that?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, about 11:30 or about--about 12 o’clock, maybe a quarter of 12, and I was in bed and I told him he woke me up, and he was telling me that nobody downtown did any business on account of that, and I said to him, “Jack, I’m sick. Please don’t call me no more.”

Mr. HUBERT. Was he rather sore at you because you kept your place open?

Mr. PAUL. Not especially. I don’t think so. I didn’t see him after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention to you that he had gone to the Pago Club, in any of those calls at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He never mentioned that to you whatsoever?

Mr. PAUL. No; he never mentioned it to me. If I’m not with him, he don’t tell me where he goes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he had been to the police department on Friday night and had been up in the showup room and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. No; but he told me that he brought some coffee over, I think, Saturday night, to the KLIF diskjockeys in the conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about the Bernard Weissman advertisement that he was so upset about?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he mentioned that in the paper and he said he was going to ride up on the expressway and see it.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he say that to you?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall whether it was Friday night or Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was nighttime?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his saying to you that his sister, Eva, was crying?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he say that?

Mr. PAUL. Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Tammi True during that weekend of November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; the first time I saw Tammi was the 24th and it was Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Tammi, Sunday?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did not speak to her or see her prior to that time for 4 weeks?

Mr. PAUL. No; the 24th was Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see her and under what circumstances?

Mr. PAUL. On Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. She came over to the place.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. PAUL. Yes. She was the first one to call me and tell me.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at the Bull Pen all day Friday except when you went home?

Mr. PAUL. When I went home in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. And on Saturday too?

Mr. PAUL. When I went home in the afternoon and came back at 5 and stayed until 10.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to get into the calls from Ruby on Saturday night--there were quite a number of them, as I recall it. Do you remember when the first one was and where did you get it?

Mr. PAUL. The first call was at the Bull Pen.

Mr. HUBERT. And he called you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was he, did he say?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you gather from the nature of the conversation, from what he said, as to where he might have been?

Mr. PAUL. No--I think he said--the only thing I think he said was that he went to synagogue, and whether he said it then or he said it later, I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you about doing something to Oswald and getting a gun or anything like that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; no sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about a gun at all to you on any of those phone calls?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Wanda Helmick or Elwick?

Mr. PAUL. Maybe I do, but I can’t recall the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever told anybody that Ruby told you that he was going to get a gun and shoot Oswald?

Mr. PAUL. How could I tell anybody if he didn’t tell me?

Mr. HUBERT. I’m not asking you that--I’m asking you if he did tell you?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never repeated that to anybody?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You never said that to anyone?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby at anytime indicate that he was going to take some action or that some action should be taken by someone with regard to Oswald?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall talking to Ruby about a gun?

Mr. PAUL. I never even talked to Ruby about Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who Wanda Helmick is?

Mr. PAUL. Maybe I do, but I don’t recall who she is.

Mr. HUBERT. But the name doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any conversation with Ruby where you told him, “I don’t do such a crazy thing”?

Mr. PAUL. Do I remember the conversation?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. PAUL. I never told him that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall on Sunday morning having made any statement to anybody concerning a conversation which you had had with Ruby in which Ruby had made some threats about Oswald and talked about a gun and you had told him not to be crazy and not to do such a thing, and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. Now, the man never asked me about it--how could I have told him about it?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand your answer, you never did make such a statement?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And as I further understand your answer, he never mentioned to you any such thing at all?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. The records show that you spoke to him again at 11:18 p.m., that’s at night?

Mr. PAUL. That’s the time--that’s what I told you. That’s the last time I talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. That shows that there were two phone calls?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. One at 10:44?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That one lasted about 9 minutes?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And the second one at 11:18, or about a half hour afterwards, roughly?

Mr. PAUL. Yeah.

Mr. HUBERT. And that one lasted 1 minute?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right. I told him I was sick and I was going to bed and not to call me.

Mr. HUBERT. And he called you at your house a little later, didn’t he?

Mr. PAUL. Both times at the house. That’s the last two calls.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he called you twice at the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yeah; the second time he called, they told him I went home.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he called you at your house?

Mr. PAUL. Yeah.

Mr. HUBERT. And he spoke to you 3 minutes, and that’s when you told him you were sick?

Mr. PAUL. The last time--when you said the minute--that’s when I told him I was sick.

Mr. HUBERT. At 11:36?

Mr. PAUL. I guess so--I guess that was the last time--I didn’t watch the clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you after that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How many calls did you get at home from him?

Mr. PAUL. Two.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the records seem to indicate three--one at 11:19 which lasted 3 minutes, and another one 15 minutes later, at 11:30, which was for 2 minutes. The records also show that at 11:18 he called you for 1 minute. He called you for 1 minute at the Bull Pen and that’s when they probably told him you had gone home, so he immediately placed a call 1 minute later, you see, and spoke to you at your home for 3 minutes, and then 15 minutes later he called you again, and you spoke to him for 2 minutes, and then at 11:47 he called again and spoke to you for 1 minute. Do you remember the third call?

Mr. PAUL. If he called, I must have been asleep, because I don’t know that he called the third time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody answer the phone and say you were not there or were asleep?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I was asleep. I really remember two calls. If he made three calls, I don’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. In any of the calls he made to you on Saturday night, did he mention the name Breck Wall to you?

Mr. PAUL. No, but I know Breck Wall, but he never mentioned Breck Wall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that he had called Breck Wall that same night and as a matter of fact, within minutes of having called you?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not mention anything about Breck Wall at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had called Breck Wall up at Galveston and spoken to him on long distance?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the conversations were about?

Mr. PAUL. With who?

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby.

Mr. PAUL. With who?

Mr. HUBERT. What were your conversations about with Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. He told me that he was riding all over town and nobody was doing any business and the Colony Club and Theatre Lounge wasn’t doing any business, and he told me probably then that he went to the synagogue and his sister was crying while he was there. That’s the time he was at his sister’s house.

Mr. HUBERT. That was just after you had gotten home from the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he called you 15 minutes later. What was that about? He spoke to you about 2 minutes?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t that the time you told him to leave you alone, that you were sick?

Mr. PAUL. The last time I told him that. When he called me the last time I told him that. I think I told him to leave me alone, that I was sick. I told him I took some hot tea and lemon and went to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall a third call?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t recall his mentioning Breck Wall whatsoever?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that on Sunday after Ruby shot Oswald, you called Tom Howard, is that correct?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you make that call from?

Mr. PAUL. The Bull Pen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make an appointment to see him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who answered the phone on the Jackson call on Sunday?

Mr. PAUL. The Jackson call?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; do you know a man named Jackson?

Mr. PAUL. He works for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call you on Sunday?

Mr. PAUL. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. Jackson?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a girl who answered the phone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?

Mr. PAUL. She was a waitress at the place.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her name and address?

Mr. PAUL. She isn’t there any more, but let me think of her name--Bonnie.

Mr. HUBERT. Bonnie--and her last name?

Mr. PAUL. I can’t recall it--I can’t think of her last name right offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Her nickname was Bonnie?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you have any payroll records that would show what her full name was?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they still available?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Lee Berry?

Mr. PAUL. Lee Barrett?

Mr. HUBERT. Berry [spelling] B-e-r-r-y?

Mr. PAUL. Lee Berry--that’s my sister.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, it’s a lady?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you call her Sunday morning just before 12 o’clock.

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; I call her every other Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before you knew about Ruby shooting Oswald or afterwards?

Mr. PAUL. I think it was before. I’m not too sure, though. The difference in time, you see, I can’t recall when I called her.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember speaking to Ruby on Sunday morning at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call his apartment?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you speak to?

Mr. PAUL. Nobody.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no answer?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it?

Mr. PAUL. Right after the assassination of Oswald. I was telling Tammi I couldn’t believe it. I said, “I’ll call the house and I’ll call you back.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, she called you and told you it was Ruby and then you called Ruby and you got no answer?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us before in a prior deposition that you had gone to see Tom Howard?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday morning or rather Sunday afternoon right after the shooting?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think Tammi True took you there?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, isn’t it a fact that you thought that the Dallas police and the people investigating the whole thing might want to talk to you?

Mr. PAUL. I didn’t have an inkling at that time whether they would or not. What I was thinking about was the press.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you mean?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back to the place and the girl said, “Somebody from the press was looking for you.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well, didn’t it occur to you that the police might also want to interview you if the press did?

Mr. PAUL. That day? Then and there that day?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Well, I wasn’t thinking about it at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you saying then that the reason why you went to the theater and so forth and weren’t available was on account of the press?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; for the press.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was not on account of the police?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But weren’t you told at one time that the police and the FBI were looking for you?

Mr. PAUL. I was told the FBI was looking for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. And the reason I didn’t want to appear right away was because of what they did to--what’s his name--that lived with Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. George Senator?

Mr. PAUL. George Senator--they put him in jail.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you find that out?

Mr. PAUL. When I got to town, the same day.

Mr. HUBERT. So, really what you were doing in addition to avoiding the press, you wanted to avoid being arrested and you thought you might be?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I thought that after what they did to George Senator, that they might do the same thing to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I can understand your thinking, but is it fair then to state that what you were doing was making yourself unavailable to the police as well as unavailable to the press?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, your motivations for not being available were twofold: You didn’t want to see the press, you wanted to avoid the press, and you also wanted to avoid the police because you were worried that they might put you in jail?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And it’s for that reason that you went to the theater, is that right?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And finally, of course, I believe it was one of your friends then that insisted that you should allow yourself to be interviewed by the FBI, and that finally that occurred about 9 o’clock at night?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you learn that Senator had been arrested?

Mr. PAUL. I was over at his office--Tom Howard’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. And he told you so?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you thought that your connection with Ruby was close enough that you might be arrested too?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby mention the AGVA to you at anytime during these conversations?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You know what that is?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention the Weinsteins and the trouble he was having with them?

Mr. PAUL. That was all the time before.

Mr. HUBERT. Which time before?

Mr. PAUL. Many weeks before--he was having trouble with Weinstein.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, did he speak to you about it during any of these conversations on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about Oswald at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He never mentioned his name?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Once again, did you ever tell Ruby some such words as, “You’re crazy,” when he spoke to you on Saturday about doing something?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean that you used that exact phrase, “You’re crazy,” but some such phrase to indicate to him your disapproval of what he was suggesting?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you know of course, Karen Bennett. You have just identified her. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Harry Olsen?

Mr. PAUL. The one that married her?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was a member of the police department?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any of those people between November 22 and November 24?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to them during that time?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you called Kathy Kay on the 25th?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. PAUL. I asked her if she wanted to come to work at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. You decided to reopen the club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Pappy Dolson?

Mr. PAUL. A booking agency.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your contract with him for him to do?

Mr. PAUL. To get the acts.

Mr. HUBERT. To do what?

Mr. PAUL. To get me entertainers.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a man by the name of A. L. Davis, that had something to do with the Playboy Club?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You never heard that name?

Mr. PAUL. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember speaking to Ruby or referring Ruby to anybody in connection with the Playboy Club?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ruby was interested in opening an operation similar to the Playboy Club operation?

Mr. PAUL. He didn’t tell me nothing about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you about any new plans he had for a nightclub or a new nightclub?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, that was a couple of months before when he took me to show me a place that was empty, and he says, “I’ve got an idea,” and I said to him, “You and your ideas!”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business dealings with your sister, Lee Berry?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what nature?

Mr. PAUL. I loaned her some money.

Mr. HUBERT. For a business?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what sort of business?

Mr. PAUL. She’s got a loan office in New Jersey.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s where she lives?

Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in New York.

Mr. HUBERT. And she works in that loan office?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is it called, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. It’s a loan office in Lodi and it’s the Pleasant--I had her card--Pleasant Finance Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. PAUL. Lodi, N.J.--[spelling] L-o-d-i.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the street address?

Mr. PAUL. 25 Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you’ve testified before concerning the loan of $15,000 to Ruby in connection with helping him with his income tax trouble?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that loan made as one loan?

Mr. PAUL. No--a lot of loans.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a buildup, as I remember?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that from the time of Joe Bonds and the Sky Club?

Mr. PAUL. No; Joe Bonds had nothing to do with this thing.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your connection with Joe Bonds?

Mr. PAUL. He brought me down to Texas and went partners in this nightclub.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you’ve already testified about that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The loan to Ruby which eventually got up to $15,000 was not all in connection with income tax troubles, was it?

Mr. PAUL. No; of course not.

Mr. HUBERT. As I remember, we went through that before?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Paul, have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been a member of the John Birch Society?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how Ruby got hold of some literature that was found in his car relative to H. L. Hunt, who wrote it? Do you remember that?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention anything to you about that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he active in politics in any way?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever campaign?

Mr. PAUL. No--no campaigning.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he distribute literature or engage in ward politics or precinct politics?

Mr. PAUL. Jack had none.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer is “No”?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward his religion, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. He was very conscientious about it. You know, like I told you the first time that when his father died he went a year to the synagogue every week to pray.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he read any books about Jewish people and the history of the Jewish people and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. He might have, but I never recall seeing him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any books in his apartment or literature of that sort?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think Ruby had any books. I don’t think that Ruby read anything--well, he read papers. He read every newspaper that was in Dallas all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you two pictures that have been identified as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin and ask you if you recognize the man who is represented in those two pictures.

Mr. PAUL (examining instruments referred to). I don’t remember any of them--both of them--I don’t remember them at all. The face don’t even phase me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don’t recognize the face at all?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit, the one that was shot by Oswald?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If I tell you now that these are pictures of J. D. Tippit, that still doesn’t refresh your memory as having seen them at all?

Mr. PAUL. I might have seen them in the paper and didn’t even look close. [Examining instruments mentioned.]

Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, you’ve never seen him?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two other pictures that have been identified as follows: Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4. These are in the Deposition of Bruce Carlin of August 24, 1964, and ask you if you can identify the person whose picture appears in those exhibits?

Mr. PAUL (examining instruments mentioned). No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any man that looks like that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I tell you now that these are pictures of Bernard Weissman--have you ever seen or met this man?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer is “No”?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know a Bernard Weissman.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know anybody by the name of Bernard Weissman.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never seen this man?

Mr. PAUL. Not that I can recall. When you’re at the club and you’re standing around or walking around and somebody comes in and introduces himself, and as he says his name it just flies out the window, but I’ll tell you, Jack had a good memory for names.

Mr. HUBERT. But your answer to me is that so far as your memory serves you, you don’t recognize him as ever seeing this man, Bernard Weissman, who is in Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, right after you opened the club there and after Oswald was shot, did you have a man there who was sort of a cashier for you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; Leo Torti.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Mr. PAUL. Leo Torti--[spelling] T-o-r-t-i.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he is?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He’s a resident of Dallas, he lives there?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, he’s still in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. I guess so.

Mr. HUBERT. What business was he in, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he was a salesman. I know, the last time I saw him was before Jack’s trial, and he was out of work.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you pay for any part of Ruby’s defense of hiring lawyers and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t put up any money at all?

Mr. PAUL (shaking his head for negative reply).

Mr. HUBERT. The answer is “No”?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This Leo Torti, does he resemble in any way this man, Bernard Weissman, whose pictures appear in Exhibits Nos. 3 and 4 of the Deposition of Bruce Carlin?

Mr. PAUL. No--not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember talking to Ruby at all about the President’s visit?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell anyone on Sunday about the number of calls that you had received from Jack Ruby on Saturday?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I told it to the people working at the place.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be who?

Mr. PAUL. Well, the Jacksons; the other girls that worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your telling them that, why did you tell them that?

Mr. PAUL. No occasion--I just said, “I spoke to him just last night a couple of times”--after the thing happened.

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