Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 3 of 8)

Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 3 of 8)

Mr. HUBERT. What assignment was it contemplated that your detectives would have?

Chief STEVENSON. That they would stand by for any assignment that might be needed in the basement at the transfer of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. That was irrespective of whether or not the sheriff moved the prisoner or your department did?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall any instructions or orders with reference to the position of the press in the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; I was----

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Chief STEVENSON. I was present in the basement when Chief Curry arrived and said the doors would be kept clear across the driveway entering into the basement of the city hall proper. Then all photographers and pressmen would be kept back in the parking area proper, back behind the driveway line.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were to be on the east side of the ramp altogether, is that correct?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was there any change in that?

Chief STEVENSON. Officially, Mr. Hubert, to my knowledge, there was not. Now there may have been some changes made on the scene when the decision was made to use a car instead of the truck. Since the truck was parked up on the ramp and would not come down and clear, there was possibly some changes made on the spot when we found the truck wouldn’t come down the ramp and a car would be used for the transfer, to put them as far back north of where the car would be as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean to put the press, to allow them to be there?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; in other words, behind the car, if possible, and up the Main Street ramp on the Main Street side. I believe there was some up there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you don’t know who made that on-the-spot decision, as you recall it?

Chief STEVENSON. I believe possibly Captain Jones, and he talked with, I believe it was, Chief Batchelor. I am not sure as to what the last minute changes were to get them away from the immediate area there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the press people prior to the change were on the east side of the railing and on the ramp down from the east-west ramp leading into the garage parking area proper?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were all east of it, both the north and the south ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of the change of plans which required the bringing up of automobiles to get into the ramp leading up Commerce Street, it is your thought it was necessary to alter that, and that someone did alter them to allow some of the press to be on the ramp leading toward Main Street?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I believe that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, how many were there, do you recall?

Chief STEVENSON. No; I don’t. I would say there were possibly, when I went down the last time immediately before the transfer, I would say there was possibly 20 to 30 back up the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any police officers in front of them?

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present during the conversation between Chief Curry and Sheriff Decker regarding the matter of who would transfer the prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t believe I was in the chief’s office at the time he called Sheriff Decker, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. About when did you learn that the police department would actually accomplish the transfer itself?

Chief STEVENSON. It was shortly after he had talked to him. When he advised Chief Batchelor and I that he had called him, I believe Chief Batchelor was with me. He had called the sheriff, and the sheriff had told him that he understood we were to transfer the prisoner, and he told him if that was his wish, we would. As to what time in the morning that was, I would say that was somewhere around 9 o’clock, Mr. Hubert, the best I recollect.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix it at 9 o’clock?

Chief STEVENSON. Because I know between 9 and 10 after that conversation had taken place, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor and I was in on a part of the discussion of using an armored truck. And Chief Curry instructed Chief Batchelor to see if he could contact an armored truck company who could furnish us one. That was between 9 and 10 when that was done.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that the conversation between Curry and Batchelor was before that, of course?

Chief STEVENSON. Between Curry and Batchelor?

Mr. HUBERT. And Decker, was before that?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; that was when he found out that we would make the transfer, or when he had advised Chief Batchelor and I that we would.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a change of plans from that, and I would like you to state, if you would, what you know about the change of plans, when it occurred, and so forth. That is to say, the decision not to use the armored car.

Chief STEVENSON. I would say that was made, the first of my knowledge, Mr. Hubert, at approximately 11:10. I went up into the homicide bureau on the third floor. Chief Curry and Lieutenant Pierce were in the homicide bureau. Oswald was there in Captain Fritz’ office. They had been interrogating him. I went into the office. Chief Curry advised me they had decided to use an automobile for the transfer and use the truck as a decoy. The automobile was more maneuverable.

I said, “O.K., sir.” I turned around and went back to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you any reason other than the maneuverability? That was the whole reason?

Chief STEVENSON. That’s right. In view of the threats that we had had, they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that if they did encounter a group of people on the streets, they could maneuver the car more easily and get around them. I left and went to the basement to notify the men in the basement; Captain Jones, who was my captain.

I met Chief Lumpkin in the hall, and as we went down on the elevator I advised him of the change. Reached the basement. I advised Captain Jones and Chief Batchelor. Now, I didn’t advise Captain Talbert because I don’t believe I saw Captain Talbert there immediately upon my arrival in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as you know, then the only people who knew of the change of plans was yourself, Chief Curry, Chief Lumpkin, and then you told Batchelor?

Chief STEVENSON. I told Captain Jones and Chief Batchelor and Chief Lumpkin on the way to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the two detectives, Dougherty and Brown, who were to drive the two cars, were they told what their role was to be?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; not of my own knowledge, but I understand they had gotten their instructions before they left the homicide office that Dougherty would drive the car containing Oswald and that Brown would be in the car immediately preceding him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Rio Pierce was told too, I suppose?

Chief STEVENSON. He was instructed to get his car and park it in front of the armored truck as if he was leading the armored truck with the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he aware that the armored truck would not contain Oswald?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; he was in Captain Fritz’ office at the time I was instructed that the change had been decided on to take him in a car and use the truck as a decoy. He was to lead the truck down Elm Street as had been planned. The car bearing Oswald would cut down west on Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Brown and Dougherty got their instructions on the third floor in Fritz’ office?

Chief STEVENSON. In the homicide office; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They went down before you did then?

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And their instructions were to get the two cars facing Commerce on the ramp and behind the armored car?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what, if anything, Captain Fritz said when he came out of the jail office immediately prior to the movement of Oswald out of the jail office?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. I was not, oh, I would say I was within 25 feet or that far away from Captain Fritz when they emerged from the jail office door.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember whether he asked if things were clear or made any comment?

Chief STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, I don’t. I was told that he did make that inquiry of possibly Lieutenant Wiggins, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your thought, Chief, as to what extent the failure of security which occurred was caused by the decision to allow news media into the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. That would be a little difficult question to answer. Of course looking back at it, Mr. Hubert, we can see. But we had, we felt, sufficient officers in there to secure it. And of course looking back on it now, we can say yes. It would have been better for us if we had not had the press down there. What percent it figured, what percent of the blame you could lay to the fact that the press was down there would be very difficult.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any consideration, if any consideration was given, to establishing some security measures with reference to single-man action against the prisoner rather than mob action against the prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that all the officers are instructed that in handling any prisoner charged with a serious crime they should watch for anyone and everyone, any act that might look or seem to be of a suspicious nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was thinking particularly with reference to the security of Oswald on the 24th. I mean was any consideration given, to your knowledge, of establishing some security measure against a single-man action?

Chief STEVENSON. None in particular. Nothing more than is general procedure on transfer of a prisoner of that nature, or one who has committed a crime in which some relative or friend might want to take vengeance.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Chief STEVENSON. That would be that everyone be kept away from the prisoner, not be permitted to get to the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any security measures to that end taken, do you know?

Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that the press, and I didn’t hear this, was informed in the basement that none of them would attempt to move close to the prisoner for the purpose of talking to him or taking photographs.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any consideration was given to using an entirely different route of transfer than through the basement for the purpose of avoiding the crowded condition in the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. If there was, I have no knowledge of it, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any discussion among anybody that the crowded condition in the basement might pose a greater threat by a single man than if the basement were cleared of everybody whatsoever?

Chief STEVENSON. I didn’t hear that subject discussed, I don’t believe; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any suggestion made that the press be bypassed, as it were, and the prisoner removed in some other fashion?

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any officers immediately prior to the time Oswald appeared who had drawn their side arms?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the first homicide cars may have had shotguns or riot guns in them but were not visible.

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; none were visible, not to my knowledge. I could not see any of them. All of the homicide cars are equipped with rifles and shotguns.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the arrangements for the obtaining of the armored cars?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; Chief Batchelor handled that by telephone. He consulted with me on it, but he handled it by telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present in the basement when the armored car arrived?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the actual shooting did you go down to the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. The last time, I would say some 5, between 5 and 10 minutes, not over that.

Mr. HUBERT. In the plan to transfer Oswald down the elevator to the jail office and in the jail corridor into the automobile waiting on the ramp, was there any arrangement made so that Captain Fritz or others would give a signal or would be given a signal as to when to come through?

Chief STEVENSON. I understand--I didn’t hear this--but they called down from upstairs, notified the jail sergeant that they were leaving the third floor, and that the jail elevator sergeant observed the elevator on its downward journey when he was there in the jail office. When the jail elevator door opened, Captain Fritz stepped out, followed by the men with the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say the man in the jail office followed the elevator down, you mean he followed the lights to show the progress?

Chief STEVENSON. Observed it as it came down; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, has there been any discussion between you and I today which has not been covered in this deposition? I mean, did we have any conversation or any discussion today that has not become a part of the recorded deposition?

Chief STEVENSON. You mean our previous deposition?

Mr. HUBERT. No; today.

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is my recollection, that we simply exchanged greetings, but other than that we have not spoken except during the time that your deposition was being taken?

Chief STEVENSON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. Do you have anything you want to add or say?

Chief STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don’t know what it would be. I hope I have covered everything.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF ELGIN ENGLISH CRULL

The testimony of Elgin English Crull was taken at 1:40 p.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of City Manager Elgin E. Crull. Mr. Crull, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Crull, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now I understand, sir, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, addressed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I would have to guess. He didn’t stamp it. The letter is dated July the 8th.

Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?

Mr. CRULL. I received it about last Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be July 9?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRULL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?

Mr. CRULL. My name is Elgin English Crull.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. CRULL. Dallas, Tex., at 9424 Hobart.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your office?

Mr. CRULL. City manager, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?

Mr. CRULL. For 12 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man are you, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I am 55. I shall be 56 on the 17th of this month.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Texas?

Mr. CRULL. No; I am a native of Louisville, Ky.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had previous experience in the field of city management?

Mr. CRULL. I have been in the city of Dallas for 25 years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what capacity, prior to becoming city manager?

Mr. CRULL. As an assistant.

Mr. HUBERT. Assistant city manager?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Crull, we would like you to state, first of all, for the record, what are the duties and responsibilities, and so forth, of the city manager of the city of Dallas, the position which you have held and been associated with for some 25 years.

Mr. CRULL. The city manager, under the Dallas Charter, is the chief administrator of the city government, being charged with the overall supervision of most of the departments of the government. There are a few exceptions. Being charged with the financial control and the operation of the budget, and the operation of the different departments.

The city manager is charged with the responsibility of appointing and removing department heads, and assistant department heads, the balance of the organization being under civil service.

He is the responsible official to the city council, which is the policymaking body.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you appoint Chief Jesse E. Curry to his position?

Mr. CRULL. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a political appointment, or just how was it made?

Mr. CRULL. We don’t have any political appointments. We are a council-manager government. We have no political parties as such. The national parties take no activity in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. If you make an appointment, does the mayor or the city council have anything to do with it by way of suggestion or rejection?

Mr. CRULL. No, sir; the responsibility for the appointment and for the performance of the appointee is with the city manager. The council does set salaries for all appointees.

Mr. HUBERT. It is possible, I suppose then, for the city council to veto your appointment by not appropriating the money for the salary, is that possible?

Mr. CRULL. It is possible. It hasn’t happened in 30 years.

Mr. HUBERT. The selection of Chief Curry was your own selection?

Mr. CRULL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you have said then, it was based upon merit?

Mr. CRULL. In my opinion; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what is the ordinary effect of your relationship with your department heads, including and particularly the head of the police department insofar as the administration and policies of the police department are concerned?

Mr. CRULL. The general administration is left to the chief and his staff. They are trained. The administrative policies, the general personnel regulations, and things of that nature first come out of our office to the department, and then are followed by the different departments. We do check through the budget office on any deviation in policies. Department heads request changes in policies, purchasing, financing, personnel, and operating.

In addition to that, the chief, since a police department is a delicate operation with a particularly difficult public relations problem, would discuss things which might have a particular public application so far as public acceptance.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your power to overrule any decision or action taken by the police department or the head thereof?

Mr. CRULL. Not any action. It would be within my power to overrule on a policy matter and on administrative matters, but of course not those things which were covered by law. Do I make myself clear?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but except for those duties and functions of the police department that are established by law, you would have the authority to direct the chief to do or not to do any action that you thought?

Mr. CRULL. That’s right, any department head.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crull, I have previously handed you a document consisting of three pages, which is a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Calvin Rice and John J. Flanagan, dated December 12, 1963, which for the purpose of identification I have marked on the first page in the right-hand margin thereof as follows:

“Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit 1, deposition of Elgin Crull.” I have signed my name below that, and on the second and third page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of those pages.

I think you have had an opportunity to read that document, and I will now ask you if that document is correct as to the nature and effect stated in the course of that interview, and whether it reflects the facts as you remember them?

Mr. CRULL. In general, it does, but there are some details which are inaccurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now with respect to the details, I notice that you have marked on the very last line of the second paragraph on page 1, a little mark indicating that you wish to comment on that last line. Would you state what you wish to say about it, please, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I believe that says simply that I went to the lake, to a cabin. The only change is that there is no cabin. I have a boat on the lake.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?

Mr. CRULL. Other than that, it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in the next paragraph, which is the third paragraph on page 1, you have put a little mark next to the statement that you heard over the radio of Oswald having been shot.

Mr. CRULL. I did not hear it over the radio. I was called by the operator of the marina, or one of his people, I do not remember which, who had heard it over the radio.

Mr. HUBERT. Now on the next paragraph on page 1, that is to say, paragraph 4, you marked next to the fifth line and also next to the sixth, seventh, and eighth lines of that paragraph; first of all, with reference to the statement that you had selected the prior chief of police. That is to say, the chief of police prior to Chief Curry. Do you have any comments to make about that?

Mr. CRULL. Yes; I didn’t select Chief Curry’s predecessor. He was selected by my predecessor or one of my predecessors.

Mr. HUBERT. The chief of police who was in office prior to Chief Curry was in that office when you became the city manager?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You kept him on?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Or perhaps it was thought that that was an appointment of him? But nevertheless, we have a clarification on that.

Now that sentence continues and reads as follows: That you never interfered with the operations of the police department, leaving it entirely in the chief’s hands, as he did with other city departments. I think you indicated you wished to address yourself to that thought?

Mr. CRULL. I think perhaps that gives the wrong impression, that departments and department heads operate entirely on their own without any supervision at all.

Our department heads are experienced, and they do operate with a great deal of freedom, but not without control and not without consultation with the central office or manager’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to the second page in the last paragraph, eight lines from the bottom of the page, there is a reference to an individual in the report who quotes you as saying he was a yellow-sheet journalist. I think you wanted to comment on that?

Mr. CRULL. I think that phrase should be stricken, because it is not my phrase. I don’t recall it, and it is not one I would use normally. I think someone has attempted to portray what I thought of the individual, has injected his phrase.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess to get the story complete, since you wish to delete the specific phrase, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what was your impression of him, in your own words.

Mr. CRULL. The publisher of this local newspaper is careless with facts, and is inclined toward the sensational. And quite frankly, says he does it deliberately in order to sell newspapers.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that a little further down in this same paragraph there is a statement attributed to you by virtue of the fact that it in direct quotes says as follows: “I can’t sell newspapers by telling the truth.” Which according to this report, the FBI says you stated with regard to that interview.

Mr. CRULL. That is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no other marks indicating that you wish to comment upon any other part of Exhibit No. 1, so is it a fact then, that other than the corrections that have been made, it is your opinion that Exhibit No. 1 represents a true and faithful record of the interview?

Mr. CRULL. With the exceptions, I think it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now while we were on the subject of this statement which had appeared in the Oak Cliff Tribune with reference to the pressure being brought upon Chief Curry in regard to his relationship with the press, I would like for you, if you wish, to comment upon what role you played with reference to the matter of control of the press and the whole situation involving the press?

Mr. CRULL. I need some explanation. Over what period of time?

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the period of time from November the 22d, after the President was shot, until the 24th or 25th of November.

Mr. CRULL. After the President was shot, for quite some time I was at the control station at the site of the luncheon. When I finally returned to the city hall, I believed I reached there before the chief did--I went to my own office, and I can’t say how long, later went across to the police department, which is in an adjoining building.

Mr. HUBERT. But there is a corridor?

Mr. CRULL. Yes; at that time the press had almost taken over. These were the visiting press. Our local press had been pushed off to one side, and the visitors who had made the trip here with the press, plus the television people, had flooded the third-floor corridors.

The chief’s office--the television people had opened the switchboard on the corridor and their technicians had attached their equipment to the electrical system, and they were pretty well set up. I do not know, but I assume that all this happened while all the top men in the department were out on the job. There was no reason for top-level people being in the police department headquarters during the time of the Kennedy visit. They each had other assignments.

Mr. HUBERT. When you went there and saw the condition you just described, what time was it, about?

Mr. CRULL. I guess I would say it was about 3:30 in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any of the top officers of the police department there on the third floor when you arrived?

Mr. CRULL. I can’t remember specifically. Later that afternoon, I talked to Chief Curry when he did return.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that conversation take place?

Mr. CRULL. In his office in the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your return?

Mr. CRULL. I guess this was 30 or 40 minutes. About 4 o’clock in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you left the building and gone back?

Mr. CRULL. I had gone back to my office and come back again. He had been to the airport with the President’s body. At that time Chief Curry discussed the condition of things with the press, and I agreed with him that we would continue our policy of trying to cooperate with the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a formal meeting with the press, or how did that take place?

Mr. CRULL. No; but they were--the offices are small, and the corridor is not too big, and when you move that many television men and cameras and newspaper reporters into the corridor and into the offices, there was practically no space for anybody to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was thinking about was where this conference that you mentioned took place which apparently you witnessed between Curry and members of the press?

Mr. CRULL. No; I gave you the wrong impression. It was a conference between me and the chief, and Chief Batchelor, his assistant.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that conference?

Mr. CRULL. The general situation. This was the first time I had had a chance to talk to Chief Curry, since he had left to go to the hospital after the President was killed, and we looked at the situation, and I agreed with the chief that we would continue to try to cooperate with the press, that there would have to be some order brought into the situation, but that it was important that the police department not be put in a position in which later people could charge that this man had been beaten, and had been kept under cover, and not been allowed to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving the press out completely?

Mr. CRULL. No; this could have been an alternative, but we did not consider it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that there was some discussion about controlling the situation?

Mr. CRULL. We had to get them out of the offices and pushed back out into the corridor so people could work. They flooded into the chief’s office and the surrounding offices too.

Mr. HUBERT. They had been in the offices of the various divisions?

Mr. CRULL. No; at the end of that particular corridor are the top administrative offices, the office of the chief, the assistant chief, and the deputy chief, the four deputy chiefs, and his clerical help, and that is the office into which they had largely flooded.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald in custody on the third floor at that time?

Mr. CRULL. He was--this is hearsay--I understand in custody in the homicide bureau at the other end of the hall on the same floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given as to the effect of the congregation of the press in that area?

Mr. CRULL. The press was not being allowed to go beyond the midpoint in the building.

Mr. HUBERT. How was that controlled?

Mr. CRULL. There were officers there. The homicide bureau was north of the midpoint in the bureau, and there was at that time and most of the time, I understand--again I am relying on hearsay--that that part of the corridor was kept comparatively free.

Now I was there at one time, and I can’t say when, when they moved Oswald from homicide back up to the jail, I believe. At that time he was brought out through the corridor and did walk with the detectives holding him through the press, which was, or part of the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to any members of the press or otherwise gain any impression as to their attitude about what their rights were, and so forth?

Mr. CRULL. I gained an impression from talking to some of the local newspapermen who came up to me and said, “Please don’t blame us for what is going on. We don’t act this way.”

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something about what those actions were that the local press seemed to be apologizing for?

Mr. CRULL. This is something I don’t know of my own knowledge at all.

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking of what you yourself observed.

Mr. CRULL. Crowding, pushing, and attempting to take over. The free and easy use of the electrical system, which I think I noticed that most.

Mr. HUBERT. What was some example of that?

Mr. CRULL. I didn’t check the details, but the switchboxes had been opened and the technicians pretty obviously had hooked on any place they could find a wire which would support the use.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any fuses were blown?

Mr. CRULL. I was told that there were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with Chief Curry or any of the top officials of the police department the problem of the safety of the prisoner?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with them the problem of the matter of the ultimate transfer of the prisoner to the county jail when and if he were charged?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department quarters on the 22d?

Mr. CRULL. On Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking on Friday after this conference thing.

Mr. CRULL. I am sorry, I can’t be too accurate. I imagine I finally left the city hall and periodically I checked back with the police department either by telephone or actually by walking over there. I imagine it was about 7 o’clock before we left and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that in the interval before 7 o’clock, between that conference you just described and 7 o’clock, that you contacted the top officials of the police department either by walking over again or by telephone?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any further discussion had about the condition of the news media?

Mr. CRULL. No; the only thing I was interested in most then, of course as everyone else, was the progress being made with Oswald making the case. I was pretty well snowed in my own office by telegrams, telephone calls, and things which had come in in great numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you went home about 7 o’clock?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you return to the municipal building or police department any more that night?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further communication with them the night of the 22d?

Mr. CRULL. I have to keep this straight by days of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. This is Friday the 22d.

Mr. CRULL. This is the day of the President’s death?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CRULL. No; before I left the police department the last time, they told me they thought the case was pretty well wrapped up, and that there would be no particular new developments, so after I left that night, I went home that night, and the following morning I went to the lake, Saturday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you go to the lake?

Mr. CRULL. About 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not then go back to the police department?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that after 7 o’clock, on Friday, you didn’t have any occasion to observe the conditions in the city hall at all?

Mr. CRULL. No; not till Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with the police department after you got to the lake?

Mr. CRULL. Not until Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you have communication, and in what way on Sunday morning?

Mr. CRULL. On Sunday morning, the specific time I can’t say. A member of the marina staff called me, and said that the radio said that Oswald had been shot. So I went to the marina office and used the telephone to call Dallas. I was calling from the marina, Lake Texoma, just out of Denison, Tex. I did call the office and I talked with Chief Stevenson, and he told me, his words were, “I guess you have heard that we have lost our prisoner.”

Then he told me something of the details, although it was then confused.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald dead then, or did he tell you so?

Mr. CRULL. They didn’t know at that time. I was talking to them at the police department, and Oswald had been moved to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?

Mr. CRULL. No; I can’t say. I waited at Texoma then, a short time, until my wife came back to the lake. She had been in to Denison to church, and shortly after noon we came back to Dallas. I came to the city hall after changing my clothes at home, to the police department and talked to our mayor then and found that he had received some telephone threats, and that the police had a guard on him, that he wanted to go to Washington for the President’s funeral, and that there was some concern about it. So I left the city hall and went to the home of the mayor, discussed his trip with him, decided on my own that he should have protection all the way, called Chief Curry, and suggested that he assign Lieutenant Revill, who was the head of the chief intelligence section, to make the trip to Washington with Mayor Cabell.

Over the telephone the chief did this, and I waited at the mayor’s home until Revill went to his house and collected his clothes. Then, in a squad car, I went to the airport to see the mayor off on the airplane.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?

Mr. CRULL. Between 5:30 and 6 o’clock, something in that area. It was still daylight.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you informed by anyone of any fears that existed concerning the safety of Oswald?

Mr. CRULL. I didn’t hear this report until several days later that there had been some.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already stated that in your discussions with the head of the chief of police, the head of the police department on Friday afternoon between 4 and 7, that there had not been discussed or mentioned any fear concerning his safety, is that right?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct. The concern expressed was that with the whole world looking on, the thing be kept in the open as much as it could be, with a reasonable degree of security. Quarterbacking the game on Monday, apparently we were stressing the wrong point.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently from the last part of your answer there, you mentioned that since the whole world was looking on, the press should be given as much freedom as possible? I think you mentioned consistent with security, or something of that sort?

Mr. CRULL. Consistent with the safety of the prisoner; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that the actual safety of the prisoner was a matter of discussion?

Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t think it would be accurate to say that it was a matter of discussion. It was mentioned, but I doubt very seriously that the staff of personnel was very concerned about it, because he was at that time safely in the homicide bureau surrounded by detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say it was mentioned, the safety of the prisoner?

Mr. CRULL. I think so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember by whom?

Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said, too, that there was no discussion of the method of transfer or the danger or perils that might exist for the safety of the prisoner when that would come about?

Mr. CRULL. The method of transfer I did not discuss at all at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And of course since you left on Saturday morning and did not communicate or have any communication with the police until after the shooting of Oswald, you knew nothing about any developments or about any threats, and so forth, that had been made to him?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you know what plans for transfer had been developed and were prepared to be carried out?

Mr. CRULL. No; quite frankly, I think this belongs in it. I never thought seriously of the prisoner being killed. I don’t know whether others did or not, but I was concerned primarily with the case being wrapped up, and solid, so that there would be no question about who killed the President.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; there is one statement I have noticed in the FBI report identified as Exhibit No. 1, on page 2, that I would like, if you would, to clarify, because it is not really clear to me. It is the third sentence in the last paragraph on the second page reading as follows, to wit: “He--that is you--stated on November 25 he issued instructions to his subordinates and to Chief Curry and the police department to make no comments concerning these matters. Insofar as he knows, these instructions have been followed.” I would just like to get a clarification of what you had in mind. It is not clear to me.

Mr. CRULL. This may be inaccurate in my timing. This came immediately after the shooting of Oswald and the delivery of Ruby to the county jail. A problem for the district attorney’s office, and for the Commission, and at that time the press had announced that President Johnson had announced that he would name such a Commission. He had actually named Chief Justice Warren to head it. I am not certain.

And my instructions were that no police officer make any comment, that no evidence be released by any police officer, that it would all be turned over to the district attorney for his control, and I talked to the district attorney by telephone and told him my instructions. This was on Monday. Later, whether it was the same day or the following day, the district attorney told the chief of police that he preferred that that responsibility go to the--what is now known as the Warren Commission. I don’t believe any member of the police department, but with one exception, has yet violated the instructions on statements.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crull, as you know, there has been at least one statement to the effect that Chief Curry was “taking the wrap for higher-ups who insisted that Oswald be transferred in daylight hours in order to accommodate the press and other news media.”

Do you know anything about that at all, sir?

Mr. CRULL. So far as I am concerned, the higher ups would have to be either the city manager or the mayor. So far as the city manager is concerned, Chief Curry was given no instructions whatsoever as to the transfer, and I feel quite confident that Mayor Cabell didn’t.

For two reasons, One, he says he didn’t, and the other, that under the charter, the city manager’s responsibility for the chief of police and the mayor doesn’t give direct orders. I think the statement is completely untrue.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anything that would indicate that Mayor Cabell or any of the members of the council did exercise any kind of pressure whatsoever on Chief Curry?

Mr. CRULL. I know of nothing, and I feel certain that it didn’t occur.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at all?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else you would like to add?

Mr. CRULL. No; I guess not. Nearly all my knowledge is of course hearsay. I have no direct knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; then let me close the deposition with the usual question. Am I correct in stating that nothing has been discussed between us at any time since we first met, which was today, that has not become subsequently a part of this deposition by being reported?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, sir.

Mr. CRULL. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came by.

TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ

The testimony of J. W. Fritz was taken at 9 a.m., on July 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. W. Fritz. Captain Fritz, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Fritz, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Captain Fritz, I understand that you are appearing here today by virtue of a request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, to Chief Curry asking that certain members of the police department, including yourself, be present here.

In fact, under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken, which you have not had, at least directly from the Commission.

On the other hand, the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day written notice, and I ask you now whether you are willing to have your deposition taken now and therefore waive the notice?

Captain FRITZ. I could tell you what happened over there. Is there any question that I need advice on before I answer these questions? As far as I am personally concerned, I don’t know of anything that I need any advice on, but if you think that it is proper that I have advice or counsel, I would be glad to do what you think is necessary.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so, sir. Of course it is difficult for me to determine that question. Let me put it this way.

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything that I am hesitant to talk about, or anything that I wouldn’t care about telling you.

Mr. HUBERT. If there is any time in the course of the deposition that you would rather have advice on before you proceed, just say so and we will stop at that point and let you have advice.

Captain FRITZ. I can’t think of anything that I need advice on, but if you know something I don’t know, just tell me.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I don’t believe there is either, but it is hard for me to tell whether you do or not.

Captain FRITZ. I know nothing about this entire case that the truth won’t fit better than anything else. I don’t know of anything to be hesitant about, unless there is something I haven’t heard of.

Mr. HUBERT. To come back to the question, are you willing to waive the 3-day written notice that normally you are entitled to?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am willing. If there is nothing other than just the facts of what happened over here at the time of the assassination, I don’t care for telling you anything about that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all we are going to talk about.

Captain FRITZ. All right, then.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain FRITZ. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz, you are----

Captain FRITZ. You have my previous testimony before the Commission?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe I do, but I was going to state this, that you have appeared before the Commission and given testimony there, and I think your qualifications and your position and various statistics concerning yourself were included in that. Therefore, I don’t believe it is necessary for us to include any of that material here.

You are a captain of the Dallas police force in charge of the homicide division?

Captain FRITZ. Yes. Homicide and robbery.

Mr. HUBERT. And have been for how many years? Many years?

Captain FRITZ. Many years; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There are a couple of matters that I would like to ask if you know. It may be that you do not know at all. Can you tell us either from your own knowledge or from what would be normal under the circumstances, what food was afforded to Oswald from the time he was arrested on through, if you know?

Captain FRITZ. What food was furnished him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain FRITZ. Of course the food in the jail, I wouldn’t know anything about. I don’t have anything to do with the food in the jail.

I didn’t remember in the beginning until someone reminded me that we fed him what he would eat while he was there at the office while we were talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Friday on November 22 in the afternoon?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; in the afternoon. He didn’t want a great deal. He didn’t eat very much, but we brought him what he would eat and drink. I believe he drank coffee a couple of times. I didn’t remember those things until the officers reminded me in the office. We do that for almost all prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have supper at the usual hour that day?

Captain FRITZ. I am not sure about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the other meals that he may have had during the Saturday and Sunday?

Captain FRITZ. Saturday and Sunday, I don’t know. I wouldn’t know about any food other than the things that were brought into the office.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that would be strictly up to the jail personnel?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; that’s right. They take care of the food in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. He was returned, I think, and the records would show that, to the jail at mealtimes? In other words, the interrogation was stopped?

Captain FRITZ. I am not sure. I am not even sure about what time their mealtimes are in the jail, and they might not have been. They could have been or could not, but I do know that after being reminded of it by the officers, he was given anything he wanted to eat or drink while he was there in my office in the way of milk or coffee or anything of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. We also note that an attorney, Mr. H. Louis Nichols, connected with the Dallas Bar Association, came to see Oswald at some time. Do you know anything about that as to when he came?

Captain FRITZ. I heard of that, of course, but he didn’t come to my office. He went to the chief’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the interview between Oswald and Mr. Nichols did not take place when the prisoner was in your custody?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that at all times when the prisoner was in your custody, he was on what is called a “Tempo” in the police department? That is to say, a release from the jail custody to the division custody, and also showed the return of the prisoner?

Captain FRITZ. Well, I would have to look at the record to tell whether that is true, but you know he was brought to my office when he was arrested. It is entirely possible he had never been to jail when he was in my office first, so he naturally wouldn’t be under a Tempo, and he was there for some time before he went to jail.

Mr. HUBERT. But after he----

Captain FRITZ. Then every time we bring him out, he would be on a Tempo; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There was an assembly of the press held late at night of the 22d or possibly early morning of the 23d to which Oswald was brought. Chief Curry and Henry Wade were there, and there were a number of press personnel there. It was held in the assembly room. Did you go to that?

Captain FRITZ. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about it at all?

Captain FRITZ. I knew about it. I know that the chief told me to have him carried to the assembly room, to the showup room, and I directed some of my officers to take him down there, but I didn’t attend the discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby at all, or did you know?

Captain FRITZ. Did I know him before; no, sir, I did not. I never knew him before, to the best of my knowledge. That is the first time I ever saw him, when he was arrested. In fact, when the shooting happened, I thought some officer had lost his reasoning and shot that man, because of so many officers being down there.

And I asked one of the officers quickly if that was an officer that shot him, and he said it was “Jack Ruby.” And I said, “Who is Jack Ruby?” And he said, “He owns a club downtown.”

Mr. HUBERT. What officer was that?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know, some of my officers.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen pictures?

Captain FRITZ. Several of the officers knew him, but I didn’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of Ruby and perhaps you have seen him in person since?

Captain FRITZ. Oh, yes; I have questioned him since then.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you search your memory and tell us whether you saw that same person in and about the police department, particularly the third floor, on the 22d and 23d?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. I was very busy at that time. It is possible I could have seen him. If I did, I wouldn’t have known him, because there was 200 or 300 people I didn’t know.

There was a mob scene, a terrible thing, and I would have uniformed officers help me to get from my office to the chief’s office, to the elevator, and back, to get through the crowd, so he could have been in that crowd and I wouldn’t know it. I have heard since, he was in the crowd, and he probably was. I wouldn’t have known. I would have thought he was another one of those men from the same crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the planning of the exact transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Captain FRITZ. I can’t say that there was a meeting of any kind planning the transfer, but if there was, I wasn’t there. At the time of the transfer, when the chief told me that an armored money truck had been provided to transfer him, I know it was a surprise to me, because I had never heard of that. I had never heard of that before, and I told the chief I didn’t think it was a good thing to try to move him in a money wagon, because we don’t know the driver or anything about the wagon, and it would be clumsy and awkward, and I didn’t think it was a good idea at all.

I had nothing to do with the setting up of the plan, until my talk with the chief just before the transfer, nor with the setting up of the security in the basement. None of that comes under my heading.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that it would be the responsibility of the Dallas Police Department rather than the sheriff’s office to transfer Oswald?

Captain FRITZ. The day before the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Saturday?

Captain FRITZ. That would have been on Saturday, I believe. I don’t want to be too positive about an hour or time, but in one of my conversations with the chief, I asked him if the sheriff intended to transfer him or if we would transfer him, and he told me that he had been talking to the sheriff and we would transfer him.

Mr. HUBERT. You are pretty sure that would have been on Saturday and not Sunday morning?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; it wouldn’t have been on Sunday morning. It would have been before Sunday morning, because some reference was made about the time of transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. What reference was made about the time of transfer?

Captain FRITZ. Well, in one of my conversations with the chief, you will see from my testimony, the chief asked me about transferring him at 4 o’clock the day before, and I told him I didn’t think we could be through with our questioning at that time.

At that time he asked me about 10 o’clock the next morning, and I told him we thought we could be ready by 10 o’clock the next morning. We went, I believe, an hour overtime with the interrogation, but we tried to finish up by 10 o’clock the next morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that makes you certain that the decision that the Dallas Police Department would be responsible for the transfer rather than the sheriff’s office, was made on Saturday rather than Sunday?

Captain FRITZ. On Saturday rather than Sunday, I am sure that it was, because I had talked to the sheriff one time myself during one of those previous days, and I made some remark to him, something about the transfer, and he told me to bring him on when we were ready; so I can’t tell you exactly what conversation that was, but it was pretty well understood we were to do the transferring.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a departure from the usual system?

Captain FRITZ. We transferred a great many of the prisoners in major cases. It is not a usual thing. We don’t do it every day, but we often do it in major cases. It isn’t the sheriff’s duty to transfer the prisoner. It is usually done by a constable.

Mr. HUBERT. You get a constable under the authority of the sheriff?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; under the authority of the constable. That is the usual procedure. But it is not unusual in major cases where we think that certain precautions should be used, for us to make the transfer. In fact, I transferred Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Why is it that you do it rather than the sheriff?

Captain FRITZ. It is just a matter of safety. It wouldn’t make a bit of difference with us who transferred him, just so that he was transferred safely and carefully. We don’t care. The sheriff sometimes transfers them. If I call him; when I think a man is a little bit unruly, the sheriff often handles the transfer.

I started to tell you, after they are filed on, they become the sheriff’s prisoner. I couldn’t tell you about the rules of transfer, why the constable transfers the other prisoners instead of the sheriff, but that is the usual thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for you to have made the investigation and the interrogation of Oswald that was made on Saturday and Sunday morning at the county jail rather than in the homicide office?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; that wouldn’t have been good at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why?

Captain FRITZ. Well, there are many reasons. First our records wouldn’t be there, would be one thing, and we wouldn’t have the witnesses at the county jail for the lineups and would be out of contact with the office for incoming information. The city hall would be quite a distance from us. There are certain other things that might interfere with questioning at the county jail. It was bad enough where we were.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, where you were was a pretty bad situation for it?

Captain FRITZ. Ordinarily it wouldn’t be such a bad situation. It was a bad situation because of all that news media that had turned into a mob.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was getting at, whether or not any consideration was given to moving Oswald to the county jail actually to get away from the crowd and conduct the investigation under the conditions that wouldn’t involve the crowd?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I don’t think that would have been good at all. That would be completely away from the office and the records and the some 15 or 20 officers that were required to conduct the investigation, and we would have to move our entire organization to the county jail, which would have been impossible.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you tell Chief Curry that you were concerned about the mass of people on the third floor?

Captain FRITZ. No. I am not sure that I spoke to him about this. I did speak to some of the officers about giving us some help in the hall, because the people were crowding us. They did assign two uniform men to my door. I didn’t have to ask for that. Some of the chiefs did that. They could no doubt see what I could see. They assigned two men to my door, and kept the door locked, and we only admitted the officers and people who should come in. Then they supplied some other officers to move the people down the hall so we could get back, because we had to go back and forth to the chief’s office or to the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on Sunday the 24th that there was quite a crowd of people in the basement, which was a part of the transfer route that was being planned?

Captain FRITZ. I hadn’t been down there in the basement. I had been, as I told you before, real busy in my office, and we had been continuing our questioning in company with some Federal officers from the Secret Service, and FBI, and at one time the marshal was over there, and some of the postal authorities, trying to finish up our investigation as fast as we could, and I hadn’t been down in the basement. But I had been down there either the early morning or the night before, and I had seen all the big lights set up in the basement and in the basement door, so when the chief told me about the transfer, I told him we ought to get rid of the lights and get the people out of the door that would interfere with our getting to the car for the transfer. After I was late getting started the chief came back to my office and asked if we were ready to transfer him, I told him “When the security downstairs was ready, we were ready.” And he said, “The lights have been moved back and the people have been moved back in the basement, back of the rail, and the other people have been moved across the street.” Which would have given us ample room to get into the car and get rolling with him. Once we had gotten into the car, we would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you kept advised as to the plan of transfer on Sunday morning?

Captain FRITZ. On what part of the plan, please?

Mr. HUBERT. The route and the vehicles.

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I was not until the chief came to my office. I suggested we move him in an unmarked car instead of that money wagon, and the chief agreed with me, but as far as setting up the protection in the basement and getting the money wagon, I had nothing to do with that. I don’t know where that arrangement was made.

Mr. HUBERT. Your suggestion in regard to the crowd in the basement was really with reference to the lights and so forth?

Captain FRITZ. The lights and the people, of course. Those people were in our way every time we moved that man from my office to the jail and back. We had to push him and pull him through the crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a suggestion that the people, the news media in the basement just be removed altogether so that there would be nobody there?

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t handle that. I had nothing to do with the arrangement in the basement. I did ask that they be moved out of our way, and I believe there was a number of officers down there to do that.

I want to say this in fairness to the chief. As we started to leave, he told me that the people were moved across the street, and the other people were back of the railing, and I think he thought they were. I think someone must have changed his order down there. We first called down and they told us everything was all right. One of my officers called on the telephone, before we went down to the jail. I kept my officers back in the jail until I asked two officers outside the jail if the security was good, and they said it was all right. But when we walked out, they climbed over my car and we met the crowd and the officers coming forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the shooting?

Captain FRITZ. Almost simultaneous. We had already gotten out of the jail door when the shooting happened. We were only a few feet out into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, after you came out of the jail door and walked down the corridor to the car, there was a general surge?

Captain FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Six or five feet?

Captain FRITZ. Probably as far as far as from here to that door.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 8 or 9 feet?

Captain FRITZ. Well, I don’t think, any more than that, probably. We probably have the measurements.

Mr. HUBERT. The fact is that as soon as you began to come out, the whole crowd surged forward?

Captain FRITZ. I had turned toward my car to reach for the door to open the rear door, and I just told the two officers to put him right here in the rear of the car when I heard the shot. Mr. Dhority was sitting at the wheel. He was backing my car back, and he was being hindered in backing the car by people getting around and behind it--both officers and other people. And as I started to reach for the door, the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, when you came down there, you met a condition which you had not anticipated in this sense. That it was your impression that although the news media would be down there, they would be back of that rail?

Captain FRITZ. Had they been back there, everything would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that there would be nobody on the jail side of the rail and nobody on the main ramp, Main Street ramp?

Captain FRITZ. That is right; we thought we had clearance there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that when you came outside you caused Oswald and the two guards with him, Mr. Leavelle and Mr. Graves, to halt in the jail office and you went out and called out as to whether it was clear?

Captain FRITZ. A lieutenant was standing there in uniform, and I asked him, and he told me that the security was OK. A detective also gave the same answer.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be Captain Talbert?

Captain FRITZ. No; it wasn’t Captain Talbert. I thought it was Captain Talbert at first but it was Lieutenant Wiggins from the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. You said there was another officer that you asked?

Captain FRITZ. Two officers answered me. A detective answered with this lieutenant.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer was that it was all right?

Captain FRITZ. That it was all right. I presume they had been told it was all right, because of the way they answered.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a conversation just prior to the move about the security?

Captain FRITZ. With the chief; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said and what you said about it?

Captain FRITZ. Yes. As I told you, I told him--he asked me were we ready for the transfer. Chief Stevenson and several were there. And Mr. Holmes from the Postal Inspection Office; and I believe one of the Secret Service men; and one of the FBI officers; and several of my officers.

And I told him we were ready to transfer him any time the security was ready in the basement, and he said everything is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he would check further, or he just told you?

Captain FRITZ. He just told me. He didn’t tell me how he checked.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go and check again?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know. I can’t answer that because he left my office. He told me that he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made the decision as to the actual moment of moving?

Captain FRITZ. Of course, the chief asked me if we were ready. We got ready, because I had told him the night before we would try to be ready at 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So you gave the signal to go?

Captain FRITZ. To these officers; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think there was one officer ahead of you when you all went down in the elevator?

Captain FRITZ. Lieutenant Swain went out ahead of me, and I was behind Lieutenant Swain, and then my officers and Oswald back of me, one officer on each side, and one behind him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that group come down from the third floor?

Captain FRITZ. We all came down the inside jail elevator to the jail office, and through the jail office and around the back of the jail office. This brought the prisoner out of a side door that would put us near our car.

Had we gone out of the other door, we would have had to go through a hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your concern about the news media being on the main ramp and not behind the rail?

Captain FRITZ. Well, they interfered with our movement upstairs each time we took Oswald to and from the jail, they would holler at him and ask questions and say things to him that would have a tendency to, I thought, aggravate him. I think part of it he seemed to enjoy, and part of it he seemed to be irritated about.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media?

Captain FRITZ. My concern was to do all I could to prevent a killing or an escape.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media not being on the outside of the rail, or was it concerned with fear of Oswald’s safety, or simply that these people were in the way?

Captain FRITZ. Both. They were in the way, and anyone that hindered us or held us up could cause something to happen there.

We wouldn’t have been taking all those precautions if we hadn’t been afraid something might happen.

I had even thought of the possibility of someone trying to take the prisoner. That was the reason we handcuffed him to an officer.

In a case as serious as that, we certainly didn’t want to lose him after a thing as serious as having had the President shot.

Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was, whether your concern was that the position and closeness and mass of the news media there presented a threat insofar as single-man action was concerned?

Captain FRITZ. We didn’t know many of those people. We knew very few. We knew the local people. Many people were there from foreign countries, and some of them looked unkempt. We didn’t know anything about who they were.

For that reason, we wouldn’t want them up there with us at all if we could avoid it, plus the fact that the camera lights were blinding, and if you couldn’t see where you were going or what you were doing, anything could happen.

We didn’t think we would have lights in our eyes, but we were blinded by lights. Just about the time we left the jail office, the lights came on, and were blinding.

We got along all right with the press here in Dallas. They do what we ask. These people didn’t act that way. These people were excited and acted more like a mob.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to any other officer or the chief that there were some people there that you didn’t know who were unkempt and that you were concerned about who they were?

Captain FRITZ. We talked about it among ourselves; the officers. We didn’t have much time for talking. Those were busy times.

We gathered all the evidence the first afternoon and the next day, and we had ample evidence to try that man the next morning if it had been necessary to try him, so the officers were busy and we were all busy, and we didn’t have time for that crowd or time to make a good appraisal of them.

But I am just giving you a rough idea of how they looked. They didn’t look like our local people.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to any superior officer of yours?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t suppose that I did. We remarked about them, but I wouldn’t remember what the remarks were or who they were to.

It was well known to all officers. You didn’t have to tell anyone on the third floor. They could see from the front office as well as they could from my office because of the large crowd located outside my office and in the entire hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that a suggestion had been made that Oswald be moved at night, possibly Friday night or Saturday night.

Captain FRITZ. Who made the suggestion? By whom, please, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I think it was passed on to you, and I understand that you recommended against it.

Captain FRITZ. A call at home--no, sir; I didn’t exactly recommend against it. If you would ask me now, I really don’t favor nighttime moves, because I can’t see any further at night than I can in the daytime, and if a man shoots a man, you can see him just as far in daylight as at night, and with proper security, you should be able to move anyone through town without waiting for nightfall.

We don’t go to court at night, and we take prisoners back and forth to court all the time during the daylight, so I wouldn’t see any particular need to wait for nighttime.

I did have a call out to my home from a uniformed captain who told me they had had a threat which sounded very much like a trick, the FBI got a call, I believe, near the same time saying we had better transfer him, that 200 or 300 men are going to take him away from us.

I certainly wouldn’t send a man out with two or three officers. Two or three hundred men could be just as bad at night as during the day.

I told him he had better talk to the chief, because he was making some preparations. And I found out later that he did. He called the chief, but I don’t think he could reach him, and he decided not to transfer him, I was told.

That call came after my call from the chief asking me about the 10 o’clock transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. There have been some reports that have reached us that at the very moment of transfer, that is to say, when you were coming out, and until the shooting, that the various police officers who were lining the wall had their sidearms drawn and in their hands. Did you see anything like that?

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anything like that as I came out. I think probably what they are telling you about, is that some of the officers drew their sidearms after the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any----

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anyone with a pistol in their hand as we came out. If we had seen that, we probably would have gone back to the jail, because we wouldn’t have known what an officer was doing with a gun drawn. He had no need to have a gun out at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shotguns visible or riot guns?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I didn’t. We had shotguns and rifles in my car for this transfer. I had already put them on the floor of the car where we could pick them up easily.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they visible?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; they weren’t visible. There was an officer with them.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain, I believe that is all I have. Is there anything else you can say?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything other than one thing that the chief mentioned to me. He said something about someone recommended someone taking him off on the first floor of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any discussion this morning between us that has not been made a part of this deposition?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t believe so. I think all of this is in my testimony in Washington. I feel sure that it is.

Anything else that you want to ask me about, feel free to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Captain. That is all there is to it.

TESTIMONY OF SGT. ROLAND A. COX

The testimony of Sgt. Roland A. Cox was taken at 8:15 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sgt. Roland A. Cox. Mr. Cox, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Cox, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Cox, I think you appeared here tonight by virtue of a request made to you to come by letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you appear here, I suppose, because Chief----

Mr. COX. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Asked you to come?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a reserve officer, I think?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every person who appears to have his deposition taken, as you are here tonight, has a right to a 3-day written notice to appear. But those rules also provide that you may waive that notice if you wish to do so. In view of the fact that you have not received the 3-day notice, I ask you whether you are willing to waive the notice and proceed to testify here tonight?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I ask you to rise and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. COX. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. COX. Roland A. Cox.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. COX. De Soto, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What street address?

Mr. COX. 311 Bob White.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. COX. Service department, Sears Roebuck.

Mr. HUBERT. In the city of Dallas?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. COX. Since 1946.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963?

Mr. COX. November 24, that Sunday? Wasn’t November 24 that Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put the question to you this way. Were you, during the period November 22 through 24, 1963, a member of the reserve force of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What rank did you hold then?

Mr. COX. Sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?

Mr. COX. Yes; D-11.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserves?

Mr. COX. Got my 10-year pin about 3 months ago, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you called to duty during the weekend of the President’s assassination?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What day were you called to duty?

Mr. COX. I believe I worked on that Friday night and again on Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. That was by special call, or was that your regular reserve night?

Mr. COX. No; that was a request by Barney Merle. That was what, Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. The 22d of November, and Saturday was the 23d.

Mr. COX. That would be--the third Friday is a regular night, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. I am looking at a calendar, and it seems that the 22d of November of 1963 was the fourth Friday.

Mr. COX. No; it was not a regular night, I don’t believe. I believe mine is the second Tuesday and third Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. So this was a special duty?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive on Friday the 22d?

Mr. COX. Approximately 7.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report to?

Mr. COX. Lieutenant Merle.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the reserve, or regular?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Member of the reserve?

Mr. COX. He is a lieutenant in the reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report to him?

Mr. COX. In the basement assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. Then that was about 7 o’clock?

Mr. COX. Around 7; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment at that time?

Mr. COX. I went out with the traffic investigator about 8 or a little after 8 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Between 7 and 8, that is, the time before you went out with the traffic investigator, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. COX. Well, I was in, I guess you would call it, I don’t know what you would call it, the basement where they bring all the prisoners in.

Mr. HUBERT. In the jail office?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go up to the third floor?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out on this assignment which began at 8 o’clock?

Mr. COX. We investigated one wreck, and I believe that was all, by the city car barn, and then we picked up--well, a newspaperman, I can’t think of where he was from, and we went down to the records building. Well, that was a special assignment. The investigator has got to take him around with him also on the investigation of the wreck. We took him down to this records building and showed him that building, and I got in about, well, 10 something. I had a call to call home, and I got in about 10 something and made that call, and my wife wanted me to come home, so I went on home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby that night?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were never up on the third floor at all that night?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you knew Ruby, didn’t you?

Mr. COX. I knew Ruby by working in a night club of his about 8 or 9 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the Vegas?

Mr. COX. Vegas Club on Oak Lawn, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him?

Mr. COX. First night I was out there.

Mr. HUBERT. You went out to get employment?

Mr. COX. No; I was sent by the city, special officer to the city’s night club officers.

Mr. HUBERT. You were sent out there for what purpose?

Mr. COX. Keep those drunks quiet.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be employed by Ruby?

Mr. COX. Special officer. They get a night club officer assigned by the city to certain clubs to keep the trouble down.

Mr. HUBERT. So your employment by Ruby was really by way of an assignment by the city?

Mr. COX. By the city’s special services.

Mr. HUBERT. By the city?

Mr. COX. Right. He pays them, and they pay us.

Mr. HUBERT. So you didn’t receive a check or money from Ruby?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work every night?

Mr. COX. No; Friday and Saturday most of the time. That is big nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be in uniform then?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you so work for Ruby? Over what period?

Mr. COX. Oh, I don’t know how long I worked for Ruby. It wasn’t too long. Not too long. They sent me different places.

Mr. HUBERT. You say the first time you worked there was about 8 years ago?

Mr. COX. Eight or nine. It’s been a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time?

Mr. COX. I didn’t work for him long. Maybe 3 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Just 3 months, and that was back 8 or 9 years ago?

Mr. COX. Eight or nine years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. And you haven’t seen him since, or you had not seen him until----

Mr. COX. I have not seen him yet.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether other members of the Dallas police force went to Ruby’s place during the period you are talking about when you were employed by him?

Mr. COX. The only police that ever came there were individual squadmen and liquor control boardmen. They come in, all of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any incidents where he served liquor to them free?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be particularly friendly with any of them?

Mr. COX. They didn’t talk to him too much. They always come to the officer in charge.

Mr. HUBERT. They came to you?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you said that the last time you worked out there at Ruby’s place would have been----

Mr. COX. It was around Christmas, or possibly--yes; about Christmas time. Probably New Year’s, the last I worked, about 8 or 9 years ago. I tell you, it is on record at the city hall. It’s just been too long.

Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t seen him at all in the time since?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him when you were on duty on Sunday morning?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty then?

Mr. COX. Commerce Street, south side.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. COX. Around 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty, and who placed you on it?

Mr. COX. Lieutenant Ben McCoy.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific duty at that point?

Mr. COX. Keep pedestrians back on the sidewalk and traffic moving.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were placed then on the opposite side of Commerce Street from the Commerce Street exit?

Mr. COX. Yes; south side.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go on that duty?

Mr. COX. Must have been about 10 or 15 after 10.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?

Mr. COX. Till after 11, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stay until after the shooting?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when the armored car came up?

Mr. COX. Yes; I held up traffic while that big one backed in.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the little one, where was it at that time?

Mr. COX. I believe the little one was parked against the curb; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it past the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. COX. Yes; it was past the Commerce Street entrance, because there was TV trucks sitting directly in front of the city hall on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you actually left your post of duty?

Mr. COX. I wouldn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. About how long after the shooting did you leave?

Mr. COX. Maybe 20 minutes, until the crowd kind of dispersed.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you relieved by someone?

Mr. COX. No, sir; I mean there wasn’t anything else to do when the crowd left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby around that Commerce Street entrance at anytime?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On that day?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a publication by a man named Joe Sherman of the Dallas Times Herald on November the 25th which indicated that you had seen him, which of course is contrary to what you have just told us. Could you explain anything about that?

Mr. COX. Yes; I will explain it to you. I was talking to a reserve captain in the basement. Let me think of his name. Captain Kris, I believe. We were talking about the thing happening, and also what people had said, and this news reporter went from there. In other words, that is the way he got it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to this man, Joe Sherman?

Mr. COX. Yes. He came into the conversation. Asked me if I knew Jack Ruby, and I said I once worked for him at that night club, the Vegas Club, and that is how that thing got in the paper. As far as me saying he had been in the basement, or how he had been in there, that was just strictly his say.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record so we get it straight, let me read to you what he said, and then I am going to ask you if that is the truth or not.

Police Sgt. R. A. Cox said he once worked for Jack Ruby as a special officer in the night club he once operated on Oak Lawn. He said that Ruby had a camera with him or when he entered the basement in the Dallas police station Sunday morning. Did you tell that to Joe Sherman?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were about to explain.

Mr. COX. I told Kris somebody said “he even had a camera.” That is how that happened. I didn’t say that he had one. I said “someone said he had one.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now at what time did this conversation with Kris occur which was overheard by Mr. Sherman?

Mr. COX. Well, it was after I came in out of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you came in out of the street about 20 minutes after?

Mr. COX. About 20 minutes after; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing where?

Mr. COX. In the basement. In fact, in that hall where it goes into the----

Mr. HUBERT. So that your point is, you did not say this to Kris, but this reporter just picked it up?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The police reporter just heard you saying something about a camera, but did not hear you say that the people or somebody was saying that he had a camera?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had heard some people say he had a camera?

Mr. COX. Said he came in with the newsman.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear that from?

Mr. COX. Just conversation. There was a lot of talk after that happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall any particular person that you got that from?

Mr. COX. No; sure don’t. I told Captain Solomon about it after it happened, after that statement came out. I told him it wasn’t true, right away.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn that it was Ruby involved?

Mr. COX. When I was in the street. It was on the radio. I was still in the street when it came over the radio that someone had shot him, and then when I walked down into the basement after I left the street, someone said that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. That is when I first knew it.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear anything about a camera.

Mr. COX. In the basement. There were a lot of people gathered talking, a lot of officers. You know what I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. So in other words, the picture as I see it was that you picked up from somebody that there was a story that Ruby had come in as a newsman?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that statement was made to Kris?

Mr. COX. I was talking to Kris.

Mr. HUBERT. And this reporter overheard it and painted it in that way?

Mr. COX. That is exactly right.

Mr. HUBERT. When this came out, did you notice the incorrectness of it?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything about it?

Mr. COX. I called Captain Solomon about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Mr. Sherman, the reporter?

Mr. COX. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in this same story, which is a story dated November 25, appearing in the Times Herald by Joe Sherman, there is a further statement attributed to you which is actually a direct quote, according to Mr. Sherman, and reads as follows: “He must have had a press card with him, said Sergeant Cox. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have been allowed in the basement at all. Our instructions were to keep everybody away but pressmen with proper identification.” Now did you make that statement?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were simply then not stating a fact, but an assumption that he must have?

Mr. COX. That’s right, because I couldn’t see how he got in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any security measures used to prevent entry into the basement?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir. I observed policemen on every door at the--when I say the basement entrance, plus the entrance to the building through the basement. There was an entrance on Commerce Street where you walk down into a little hall.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a policeman stationed there?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer?

Mr. COX. No; a regular.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was stationed at the Commerce Street ramp entrance?

Mr. COX. I know one sergeant. His name is Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a reserve officer?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there throughout the morning?

Mr. COX. He was there when I got there. I believe his name is L. W. Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any other policemen at other entrances such as Main Street?

Mr. COX. Not on the Main Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about the security within the basement?

Mr. COX. No; I was taken directly to the street to control traffic and pedestrians out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, you did not see Ruby enter that building on that day?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, I repeat, or you repeat you haven’t seen him in some 8 or 9 years?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him anywhere that day?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On this story which appeared in the Dallas Times Herald on Monday, November 25, on page A-35, which also, I don’t believe it is a continuation of the previous story, because that previous story appears on page A-9, and the previous story by Joe Sherman seems to be concluded on that page. The reference to you in that same edition of the Dallas Times Herald on page A-35 seems to be a continuation of another story, and it refers to you in the same way, actually, that the previous story referred to you. I am unable to tell whether it is a story by Mr. Sherman or not, or whether it is a story by anyone else, but I ask you whether or not you know of any way other than through Sherman that the story on page A-35 could have been carried regarding you, to wit, that you had worked for him and that you said Ruby had a camera with him when he entered?

Mr. COX. You mean that would be in the Sunday paper, right?

Mr. HUBERT. No; that was the Monday paper.

Mr. COX. That would be the only way.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you never made any kind of statement concerning Ruby except the one you have referred to already and explained? That is, the one made to, or which was overheard by Sherman?

Mr. COX. That’s right; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. This may be repeating the point, but this second apparent interview which is on page A-35, makes the flat statement that one police sergeant who worked for Ruby, and you are later identified as being that one, said that Ruby had a camera with him, indicating that you had seen him, and is it your opinion that this could only have come from the overhearing of your conversation with Kris by this writer called Sherman?

Mr. COX. Definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, to get the record straight on it, you never saw Ruby enter with a camera?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you in fact say that he did?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Sergeant Cox, anything else you want to comment?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There has been no conversation between us, I think, tonight other than that which was recorded, is that correct?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD J. FLEMING

The testimony of Harold J. Fleming was taken at 3:45 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold Fleming. Mr. Fleming, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Fleming, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Fleming, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, which I understand you received as late as last Friday?

Mr. FLEMING. July 10.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if you would take the oath, please?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FLEMING. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. FLEMING. Harold J. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. FLEMING. 10611 Lennox Lane in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. FLEMING. I am a corporate counsel and general operations manager of Armored Motor Service, Inc.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that company located?

Mr. FLEMING. Home offices are in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a branch of that operation in the city of Dallas?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; we do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your connection with the Dallas operation?

Mr. FLEMING. I am general operations manager for the company, and the Dallas office is one of our branches. By virtue of my position, I have worked on operational problems and legal problems arising in the Dallas city branch.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a lawyer?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record, please, sir, the occupation of Harold Fleming and Don Goin and Edward Dietrich?

Mr. FLEMING. Did you say Harold Fleming?

Mr. HUBERT. Bert Hall. I think his name is Marvin Hall.

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; Marvin E. Hall is vice president and branch manager for our Dallas branch of Armored Motor Service, Inc. Both Goin and Ed Dietrich are employees classified as guards or drivers. Mr. Don Goin also has a title of assistant vault manager.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that all three of these gentlemen work under your authority?

Mr. FLEMING. In a broad sense, yes. However, just for the record, the city branches are to a very large extent autonomous.

Mr. HUBERT. Well then, who was in charge actually of the Dallas city branch here on November the 24th?

Mr. FLEMING. Mr. Hall is in charge of the Dallas city branch as such when it functions in that capacity. This particular thing was a rather unusual situation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Fleming, I think I have heretofore shown you a document which purports to be a report of an interview of you on June 26, 1964, by FBI Agent W. James Wood, which I have marked for the purpose of identification on the first page as follows, to wit: On the right-hand margin “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Harold Fleming,” under which I have signed my name. The document actually consists of five pages, and on the succeeding second, third, fourth, and fifth pages I have placed my initials on the lower right-hand corner, and also the fifth page only of five lines on it. I think you have had an opportunity, sir, to read this document now identified as Exhibit No. 1, is that a fact?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document is a fair and correct report of the interview had between you and FBI Agent Wood?

Mr. FLEMING. Substantially that portrays the interview with some very minor qualifications.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have indicated to me that there are some minor qualifications that you would like to note, and I turn now to page 2, the first full paragraph. I notice that you have made a small notation next to the sentence reading as follows: “Hall told me they were in possession of employees Donald Goin and Ed Dietrich.” Do you have any comment to make on that?

Mr. FLEMING. Just to state that the name of Donald Goin was not mentioned in the conversation I had with Mr. Hall. The name of Ed Dietrich was discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the last sentence of that same paragraph, the sentence reading as follows: “Fleming said Donald Goin was telephonically contacted by Hall and given similar instructions.” Do you wish to comment on that?

Mr. FLEMING. I would say that I said Goin was apparently telephonically contacted.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don’t know?

Mr. FLEMING. I was not aware that Goin had been contacted at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I notice that on the first sentence of the last paragraph on page 2 you also had a mark indicating that you wished to comment upon it. I think your comment was with reference to a phrase there about a conference breaking up. What was the comment you had?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, it was actually a conversation that we had at the terminal. It was merely a matter of getting organized, and there was no time for conferring. It was just decided what we were going to do. That gives the inference that we may have had a long pow-wow. This was an instantaneous decision.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3 and I notice that in the second or middle paragraph of that page you have two lines, one I think with reference to the first sentence which begins with the words “Hall backed the truck ...” and ends with the words “... with the motor running.” Was that the sentence? My question is, what comment do you have to make with reference to that sentence?

Mr. FLEMING. It was not a question of being able to get the truck further into the driveway. It was the fact that had it gone down the ramp further, it would have been parked on an incline completely, and fearing that the truck could possibly stall, by reason of letting out the clutch too quickly. If we stalled, there might be a problem of getting the truck started again, because we had a small problem at the terminal in getting this truck to start initially. Just for the record, a new battery had been placed in that truck on Saturday and was one of these where the liquid has to be mixed up in the battery itself before it is fully charged, and it hadn’t been moved enough and would not fully charge. We were afraid the truck might stall on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty, in fact, in starting the truck when you left the terminal?

Mr. FLEMING. At the terminal we had to use a jump booster to get it started there.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the same battery in the car?

Mr. FLEMING. Oh, yes; and that is why we had the second truck with us also.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that, that the truck could have actually gone down further into the basement insofar as its clearance is concerned?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right; it could have gone in possibly 10 to 15 feet further.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a fact, though, that it could not have gone all the way down?

Mr. FLEMING. No; it could not, because of the pipes overhead at the lowest point of the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice in that same paragraph, which is the third or middle paragraph, you have made a little mark next to a sentence reading as follows: “He was not part of the Oswald guard force, but was merely on duty to prevent unauthorized persons from entering and leaving the garage.” Do you have a comment to make with reference to that?

Mr. FLEMING. My comment is that I was not aware of what force this officer belonged, and I am not in position to state whether he was part of the Oswald guard force. I do know that he was on the outside of the building at the entrance of the drive. This inferred that I assumed he was not part of the guard force.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mr. FLEMING. He was in uniform.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his position relative to the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was on the passenger’s side of the truck facing, with the truck facing Commerce Street, that was parked in the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in front of the truck, or by the side of the cab, or where was he with reference to the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was at the side of the truck, opposite or near the cab door. But he was stationed there at the time we drove the truck in.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when you backed the truck in, that policeman was there, but you did not see him there thereafter?

Mr. FLEMING. Oh yes; he was there the whole time.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there the entire time?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He would have been rather close then to Mr. Hall sitting in the cab?

Mr. FLEMING. He was not sitting in the cab. He was standing on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. No; the policeman was standing on the outside?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But I say, that policeman would have been rather close to Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. No. Mr. Hall was on the driver’s side of the cab rather.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, this was the passenger’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You observed he was there from the moment you all arrived until after the shooting?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the truck and the wall on the passenger’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side, there was not enough space for anyone to get through into the building, because as I got out of the passenger’s side, I had to go around to the driver’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. On the driver’s side, how much room?

Mr. FLEMING. There was room for a person to walk between the wall and the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we better put those dimensions in terms of feet. Take the passenger’s side first.

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate on the passenger’s side the clearance was less than 6 inches. On the driver’s side, I would estimate it to be around 2 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the width of the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. Not offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Returning for the moment to the document which has been marked Exhibit No. 1, I take it then that other than the corrections that you made, that this document represents a fair statement of the interview and represents therefore the truth, so far as you know it?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I would like, if possible, for you to tell us how you fix the time of the call received by you from Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, I was in the process of shaving in order to go to church at 10 o’clock. My wife answered the telephone, and I had to come to the phone with lather on my face. And by reason of the timing, it was between 9:30 and 9:40.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I had met Chief Batchelor within 30 days of this date.

Mr. HUBERT. Socially or----

Mr. FLEMING. No. I went to see Chief Batchelor on official business in that at the time we had been apprised of a city ordinance concerning the licensing of our people in Dallas. The company had operated in Dallas since 1928 without a permit to carry firearms, and being aware of that statute, I made an inquiry to determine if we had to be so licensed. And having determined that we did, we then had the wheels in motion to process our company’s license, and I conferred with Chief Batchelor in an effort to clarify insurance and bond problems.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate 3 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was of course concerning the availability of your armored trucks?

Mr. FLEMING. Chief Batchelor asked if I had been the person, or rather if I were the person who had contacted him with reference to Armored Motor Service, and I stated I had. And he said, “We would like to borrow a truck from you people for the purpose of transporting this prisoner.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that the truck would be available?

Mr. FLEMING. I told him that the truck, we would be very happy to oblige, but that it would take me sometime to make it available, because I had the problem of determining who had keys and how we could get it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him how long it would be before the truck would be available?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave the matter then with him on that occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. I told him that I would get started immediately to locate the people who had the keys, and parenthetically I might explain that for security reasons the same person doesn’t have the keys all the time. And I think neither the manager nor the assistant manager had it. In other words, to save time, I told Chief Batchelor we had several sizes of trucks, and asked that he take the measurements of the door and have them ready so that I could call him when I arrived at the terminal, to determine what size truck we should bring to transport the prisoner. And I told him I would call him as soon as I learned how soon we could be there.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?

Mr. FLEMING. I then attempted to call Mr. Hall by telephone, and Mr. Paul Leonard, who is our operations manager for Dallas, by telephone. Neither was in. Then I called Mr. Tom Mastin, Jr., president of Armored Motor Service in Fort Worth, explained the commitment that I had made, and asked if he had any suggestion as to whom I might call to find out who had the keys. He suggested that Mr. Tom James, who is vice president of Armored Motor Service in semiretirement, lived next door to the church that Mr. Hall and Mr. James attended, and suggested that I call Mr. James to get Mr. Hall personally and proceed from there, which I subsequently did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Mr. James and ask him to go over and get Mr. Hall from the church?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; and he had Mr. Hall call me from the church.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall about how long after that Mr. Hall called you in fact?

Mr. FLEMING. It would have been within 5 minutes of my call to Mr. James.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you tell Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I asked if he knew where the keys were, and he said he did not know. He thought Mr. Ed Dietrich had one set, and he would try to make some calls to find out where the other set was. I suggested that rather he give me Dietrich’s telephone number, and I suggested that I would call Mr. Dietrich, and for him to get on the phone and try to locate the other keys so that we could find somebody and move quickly.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of the time of your conversation with Mr. Hall relative to the time that you first spoke to Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate between 8 and 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you spoke to Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. After I finished talking with Mr. Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then call anyone else?

Mr. FLEMING. I called Mr. Dietrich. He was not in. I left a message for him to call me as soon as he got into his house.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call?

Mr. FLEMING. He called me again within about 5 minutes, and I asked him to come directly. Asked him if he had keys, and he said, “Yes,” and asked him to come directly to the Armored Motor Service terminal and meet me there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he had already received a call from Mr. Hall to the same effect?

Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not. We didn’t discuss it. I assumed that he had not.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying that he did.

Mr. FLEMING. He may have received a call after. I think Mr. Hall had called the home, though, because he did indicate that he was not home.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it you finished dressing and went about the accomplishment of the job?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time then did you get to the terminal?

Mr. FLEMING. I frankly can’t state what time I got there, because in the haste I forgot my wrist watch and did not know. Judging from the route I took, however, I would estimate it took me at least 20 to 25 minutes to reach there from my house. That could put it 10:25 to 10:30, and this is strictly an estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you had made the several calls that you have talked about, it took you, I gather, another 15 to 20 minutes to finish dressing?

Mr. FLEMING. No. I finished shaving in the meantime, and was gone as soon as I got the call from Mr. Dietrich. It was a matter of 2 or 3 minutes before I left the house.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the terminal, was anyone there?

Mr. FLEMING. When I got to the terminal, Mr. Hall and Mr. Goin and Mr. Dietrich all three were there.

Mr. HUBERT. Just relate in narrative form, if you wish, what happened from the time you got there, on forward, if possible, giving us time intervals, because one of the purposes of this deposition is to fix the time.

Mr. FLEMING. Let me just meditate a minute. When I arrived, they were preparing to take a small truck on the mission, because Mr. Dietrich said that he had been in the basement of the city hall before and knew that even a small truck would not clear the overhead pipes in the basement. Based on that, Mr. Hall apparently had made a decision that we would take the small truck rather than the large one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was it Mr. Goin, you say, or Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I said Mr. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall didn’t indicate to you that he had been to the jail on that morning, but on some previous occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. No; it was Mr. Dietrich in an armored truck. We serviced the city hall and numerous places.

Mr. HUBERT. But it wasn’t on this day? It was on a different occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. No; at a time previous.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then.

Mr. FLEMING. But I indicated that the small truck would not be satisfactory, having had a little experience in police work. I said we need the large truck, and suggested they look it over, clean it out, get bottles out of it, and so on. They indicated it would not start, and I suggested that we attempt to start it. Mr. Goin then got a battery and he and I, mostly he, got the thing connected, and we started the motor. In the meantime, I called Chief Batchelor and told him that we were at the terminal and we would be down shortly, and I used that term, because we had not yet got the truck started. I explained that there was no need to give me the dimensions because our truck would not go all the way down the ramp anyhow, but we would bring a large truck that would accommodate a larger force and would be down within, I said within 10 to 15 minutes, this would have taken.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor indicate to you at that time which truck would be used?

Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not indicate to me. We were telling him what facilities we had.

Mr. HUBERT. You did in fact take both of them ultimately?

Mr. FLEMING. We took both trucks, because as I said, after we had difficulty starting this one, we were afraid that the large truck might for some reason stall, and we wanted a standby truck in the event that should happen. I would estimate that we were at the terminal from 10 to 15 minutes prior to departing for the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you departed, what route did you take from the terminal to the city hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I can’t tell you verbatim without referring to what was stated there.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it stated in there?

Mr. FLEMING. It is stated there, and we went over that on the map. That is the accurate route.

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. 1 of your deposition, the first paragraph in which the exact route is stated?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were riding, I think, in the passenger’s seat with Mr. Hall driving?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you notice whether there was a shotgun in the usual bracket for that purpose in the car?

Mr. FLEMING. No; there was no shotgun.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no shotgun?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You would have seen it had it been there, because you were seated in the passenger’s seat where it would normally be, next to where it would be?

Mr. FLEMING. There were no guns in the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the Commerce Street entrance, what did you do?

Mr. FLEMING. The truck was backed into----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get out?

Mr. FLEMING. Not until the truck was backed into the spot where it was, where it stopped. I then got out of the passenger’s side, walked around the front, and went into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said it was on that occasion that you noticed that it was impossible for you to go down between the truck and the Harwood Street side of the ramp wall?

Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. Because there simply wasn’t enough space?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had to go around in front of the truck and down the driver’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you meet there?

Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know who challenged me, but somebody in plain clothes asked me who I was, and I told him, and within a matter of seconds, Chief Batchelor and I met. I don’t know whether this gentleman took me to him, or he was there waiting for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, before we go on from there, would you care to estimate the time of arrival in front of the building and before you started to back in?

Mr. FLEMING. As I stated, I have no idea what the time was. It took us; it wouldn’t have taken us more than 5 minutes to get from the terminal to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no traffic problem?

Mr. FLEMING. No traffic problems at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Goin and Dietrich were in the other car?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did they park?

Mr. FLEMING. They parked initially on the south side of Commerce Street facing east diagonally from the entrance, diagonally to the left from the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do between the time that you first arrived until the firing of the shot? Perhaps I should ask you first, did you hear the shot?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I heard the shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Then from the time you arrived until you heard the shot, would you tell us what you did?

Mr. FLEMING. After I met Chief Batchelor, we both got into the back end of the truck, and Chief lifted the mattresses from the bunks and inspected the rear and asked about a mechanism we had there which was a hydrovac brake, and I explained to him that was a brake for the back end so that the men from the rear could control the brake system of the car in the event of a holdup, and he commented, “We don’t want him to sit over here, and we will put him on the other side.” I had the keys and I couldn’t unlock the door to what we call the money compartment or the center compartment of the truck. I have been speaking previously of the rear compartment where the men stay.

I then left Chief Batchelor and went around to the outside, opened the door to the center compartment, and then opened the door from the center compartment to the rear from that side so that it could be opened in the event that they wished to have a guard force in the center compartment of the car. I then went to the street and talked to Mr. Goin and explained that I thought that their car possibly should go first, not having had any instructions from anybody, and sort of watch the police car and determine where to go. I went back inside, again went in the truck for some reason, I don’t know, and again came to the outside. At that point there was a squad car in front of our parked armored truck, and I asked the officer if his was going to be the lead car, and he said, “So far as I know; yes.” Well, I was going to ask this other armored car to go ahead, so I then went to Mr. Goin and suggested that he follow the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goin was at that time seated or standing by the smaller truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was standing by his truck. From that point, I don’t know why, I went over to the front of our truck toward the passenger’s side, and it was at that point that I heard the noise that sounded like a cap pistol.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first noticed the police car in front of the truck in the street, was it just coming up, or was it already in place?

Mr. FLEMING. It was parked in front of our armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing in front of your armored truck?

Mr. FLEMING. I was standing over on the passenger’s side of the armored truck after I had talked with Goin about his relative position to our truck once we started to move.

Mr. HUBERT. What I was thinking about is, that prior to talking to Goin, you had seen the police car parking, you said, that you spoke to the driver?

Mr. FLEMING. I came out. When I came out, the car was parked in front of our truck, and I asked the officer driving if he was going to be the lead car.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you walked from across the sidewalk to the car?

Mr. FLEMING. No, no. The police car was backed into the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. Parked in the driveway and headed out?

Mr. FLEMING. The back end of the car was up against the front bumper of our truck, so to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. So you simply walked to the driver’s seat and asked him what he was going to do, and he told you what he said?

Mr. FLEMING. Then I crossed the street diagonally to talk to Goin, who was standing on the outside of his car.

Mr. HUBERT. How far was Goin from you when you were standing talking to the officer?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, the width of the street. Place it diagonal, and he would be about three car lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the car was on the other side of the street?

Mr. FLEMING. About three car lengths forward of our position, so it would be the width of the street, plus whatever it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?

Mr. FLEMING. I walked back.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during all the time that you were at the Dallas police jail, from the moment when you first arrived, did you see anyone going down the driver’s side of the space between the armored car and the wall?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you in a position to say that had anyone walked down that space, you would have seen him?

Mr. FLEMING. Most likely. There were no people at all on that side of the street, save one colored lady at one point, and I don’t know whether this was before or after the shooting, but everyone else was on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, since that time seen pictures of him, I suppose?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Movies perhaps, or television?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you saw Jack Ruby or any person resembling him at any time around there on that date?

Mr. FLEMING. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on that morning, or does your memory serve you now in that regard as to whether there was one or more TV mobile unit vans parked on the same side of Commerce Street as you were, but in the Harwood Street direction?

Mr. FLEMING. As I recall, I observed one.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people walk up to that car?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not. After I heard the shot, an individual came up to me and asked me what happened. And I don’t know, he was a little excited, and I was not in position to know, and subsequently I went inside. He could have been from the mobile TV group, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give some sort of description of that individual?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police guard or guards in the space or protecting the space in any way between the driver’s side of the armored car and the wall?

Mr. FLEMING. Not on the outside of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. There was some on the inside?

Mr. FLEMING. When I went in, someone challenged me as to my identity.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether that person stayed there?

Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know. I just know when I went in three times, I was questioned.

Mr. HUBERT. You have mentioned that you went in and out a couple or three times, and you now state to me that each time you went in or out, you were questioned?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I was challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. That were on the driver’s side of the van?

Mr. FLEMING. On the inside of the quarters. Not on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same person that challenged you each time?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did the challenge consist of?

Mr. FLEMING. “Who are you? What do you want?” And I merely explained that I was with the armored car. Of course the officer, whoever was there, had seen me visiting with Chief Batchelor, and they knew as soon as I mentioned that as to my identity, I presume.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I believe that is all. Do you have anything else you want to say that you think is either pertinent or of interest to the general inquiry?

Mr. FLEMING. I can’t think of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. I am sure we have not met before today?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. We did have a short conversation off the record prior to beginning the recordation of your testimony, but I ask you if it is not a fact that everything that was discussed off the record was subsequently discussed on the record?

Mr. FLEMING. It was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DON EDWARD GOIN

The testimony of Don Edward Goin was taken at 7:10 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Donald Goin.

Mr. GOIN. Don E. Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Don? It is not Donald?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Don E. Goin [spelling] G-o-i-n.

Mr. Goin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Goin, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Goin, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission. You received such notice?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. GOIN. I received it Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 9th?

Mr. GOIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have it in your hand there?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear a stamp that indicates the date?

Mr. GOIN. Mailed the 8th.

Mr. HUBERT. From Washington, D.C.?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand and raise your hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GOIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. GOIN. Don Edward Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. GOIN. 1510 Crockett Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. GOIN. Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. You just moved there, I think, today?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your former address is 1800 Leonard Avenue?

Mr. GOIN. No; that is my business address.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is your business address. That is where you received the letter?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. But your home address is as you just gave it?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. GOIN. Armored car operator.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. GOIN. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What organization?

Mr. GOIN. Armored Motor Service Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior with that organization?

Mr. GOIN. Bert Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, Marvin E. Hall is the actual name?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Harold Fleming?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. GOIN. The position with the company, one of the personal administrators. He has another position as general operations manager, I believe, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I was inquiring about your activities in connection with the use of armored cars on November 24, 1963, in an anticipated plan and movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas city jail to the county jail. In the first place, let me ask you, had you been to the police department at all on November 24 until you went with the armored car later?

Mr. GOIN. This was the Sunday morning in question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOIN. No; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that your services would be needed on that Sunday, November 24?

Mr. GOIN. Telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom?

Mr. GOIN. From Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. What, approximately?

Mr. GOIN. I think it was 9 or 10 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you at home?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; at home.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Mr. Hall ask or direct you to do?

Mr. GOIN. Asked if I would come to the office; meet him at the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what it was about on the phone?

Mr. GOIN. No; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he express to you the necessity for being there quickly?

Mr. GOIN. I honestly don’t recall. I just told him that I would be able to meet him there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you immediately leave your home?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; in a matter of minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way at all you can think of of fixing the time you left your home?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so, not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within 5 minutes after you finished your telephone conversation with Mr. Hall that you did leave your home?

Mr. GOIN. I believe it would be about closer to 20 minutes after. As I recall, I was in the process of shaving and I finished shaving and dressing.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?

Mr. GOIN. 6329 Denham Court, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive your own automobile down to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. The terminal is located where?

Mr. GOIN. 1800 Leonard Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what route you followed in going from your home to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is, please?

Mr. GOIN. The expressway into town across Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. What expressway?

Mr. GOIN. South Central. Followed the freeway to South Central.

Mr. HUBERT. Then South Central to what?

Mr. GOIN. To Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer?

Mr. GOIN. Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer to what?

Mr. GOIN. Let’s see, Bryan to Fairmount, and to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Fairmount to Leonard?

Mr. GOIN. No; Fairmount goes by the office, on the other side of the office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you estimate it took you to drive from your home to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you got there at the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t, offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone there? Were you the first to get there?

Mr. GOIN. No; Mr. Dietrich was there, and I believe Mr. Hall also.

Mr. HUBERT. So was Mr. Fleming there?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t truthfully say.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, two people were there before you?

Mr. GOIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you proceed to do then after you arrived? What happened?

Mr. GOIN. I talked with Mr. Hall and was advised what we were going to do. I had guessed what we would do, but I had not been advised before then what we would do.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you got there did Mr. Fleming arrive, do you know?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t advise you there.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. GOIN. We got keys to the armored trucks.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were the keys?

Mr. GOIN. In the office.

Mr. HUBERT. They weren’t kept on your person or the person of Mr. Dietrich?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so. They are kept in the office itself.

Mr. HUBERT. In a safe?

Mr. GOIN. In security; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had keys to the office, though?

Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Who had the keys to the office?

Mr. GOIN. I imagine Mr. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the office was opened and the keys to the truck or trucks were obtained?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who actually obtained those keys?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do it yourself then?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t believe so. I may have. I don’t recall distinctly, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the keys in a safe with a combination?

Mr. GOIN. No. Our office is a security lock.

Mr. HUBERT. So the keys were in a box on a string or something?

Mr. GOIN. On a keyboard in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you all enter the office prior to the arrival of Mr. Fleming, or after?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really tell you that.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, or what did the others do then? First of all, you got the keys, and the next thing that happened was what?

Mr. GOIN. I believe we got the trucks and prepared to leave. There was a little delay in some phone calls, I don’t remember, by Mr. Hall or Mr. Fleming. I can’t really say what was involved. I remember Mr. Dietrich now waiting a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of how much time elapsed between the time you arrived at the terminal and the time you began to move to the city jail?

Mr. GOIN. Probably a half hour, I should say, possibly. I don’t recall. I haven’t put any thought on this, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty in starting either of the two trucks?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; there was. Let’s see, I believe truck No. 46 had a new battery and consequently hadn’t been serviced properly or serviced with water and had to be used, what we call service cabled from another battery.

Mr. HUBERT. To get the motor started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that truck No. 46 the larger or the smaller of the two trucks?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; it is our largest truck at present.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the starting up of the truck, larger truck No. 46?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do recall that it was necessary to use another battery with cables to get it started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. But who did the actual work of putting the other battery on to the necessary parts of the truck to get the truck started?

Mr. GOIN. I really can’t give you an honest answer there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether you did it yourself?

Mr. GOIN. I may have been a part of it, but I don’t distinctly remember doing it, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that the front hood was opened so that the battery could be started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much of a delay did that occasion, do you know?

Mr. GOIN. Not exactly. Probably 15 minutes. It would be an estimate, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. GOIN. In--I was trying to think what truck number--in the other truck.

Mr. HUBERT. In the smaller truck?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving?

Mr. GOIN. I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you?

Mr. GOIN. Mr. Dietrich.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you precede the larger truck, or follow it?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the route that was used to go from the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Ross Avenue to Harwood, down Harwood to the Commerce Street parking on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Commerce Street, where did you park?

Mr. GOIN. I parked past the city jail, back exit.

Mr. HUBERT. There is an exit from the city jail coming up from the basement which comes out on Commerce Street?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you had come down Harwood and turned left onto Commerce?

Mr. GOIN. I parked past the exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park on the Main Street side of Commerce or the opposite side?

Mr. GOIN. I parked on the north side of Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the north side of Commerce would be to the right of Commerce or to the left, as you were going?

Mr. GOIN. As I were going, it would be to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park ahead or in back of the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. The larger truck backed into the dock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, was it ahead of you at that point, or behind you?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly whether I followed him or whether he followed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you parked on the same side of the street of Commerce Street as the exit, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not park on the opposite side of the street where the people were congregating, or did you?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you parked there, did you ever move again until ultimately you moved away after the shooting?

Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was parked then past the Commerce Street exit from Harwood Street and on the side of the Commerce Street to your left, rather than the opposite side of Commerce Street, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far past the entrance were you parked, or exit rather?

Mr. GOIN. The exit, a couple of car lengths, I believe. I believe there was a city or county car sitting behind us for a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a city or county car that was parked across the exit and therefore immediately in front of the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. I believe it was the car that backed in front of the armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About when, relative to the time you arrived, did this other car park in front of the armored car?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really give you an answer there, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the shot was fired? Did you hear any shot?

Mr. GOIN. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your car at all at any time?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; left the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. The small one?

Mr. GOIN. The small armored truck on, I think, a couple of occasions and walked back to the back of the truck standing for a moment or for a few minutes, and walking back and getting back in.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never left the immediate vicinity of the small armored truck?

Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t get other than just a few feet at the most from the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn of the shooting?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly. The commotion began with someone trying to get the Ford sedan in front of our big armored truck out of the way, and I don’t recall exactly from what source I learned the actual shooting, or maybe just overheard loud conversations, because I didn’t have any direct conversation with anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing yourself, the police car coming from around Harwood onto Commerce and backing so that it was placed in front of the large armored car? Did you see that yourself?

Mr. GOIN. Would you explain again?

Mr. HUBERT. You have stated to us that after the large armored truck was backed partially into the ramp, that a police car, which I think you said was a Ford, came around and backed up in front of the armored truck, isn’t that correct?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you observed that yourself? Did you see it happen?

Mr. GOIN. Partially; if not all the way. I don’t recall exactly if I was in the armored truck when this happened, or standing beside it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do I understand you to say that you are not sure whether you actually saw it, but that you ultimately saw it in that position?

Mr. GOIN. I am sure I saw it moving either in a rear view mirror or was standing beside the truck and saw it, because I was observing as much as I could.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had arrived at the parking position originally did this Ford police car back up in front of the large truck?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t give you an answer to that, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been there some considerable time?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really say.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you--I think you have already stated you were two car lengths from the exit?

Mr. GOIN. If I remember, approximately a couple car lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there another police car in front of you, or back of you parked in the same manner as you?

Mr. GOIN. I think before we left there was another police car that moved in front of us, I believe, as a lead position. Because as I recall us leaving, he was in front of us, or at least we started out moving and he was in front of us.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand then that there was another police car in addition to the Ford that backed up in front of the large truck, that came and placed itself in front of you, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. I believe there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that car come before or after the first police car came?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you double parked? I mean, were there cars parked on your left along the curbing?

Mr. GOIN. I believe there were.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first drove up, who gave you instructions as to where to stop?

Mr. GOIN. There was policemen on duty in the street.

Mr. HUBERT. And they told you where to stop?

Mr. GOIN. Yes. I am sure that we were double parked and there were other cars on the side.

Mr. HUBERT. On your left?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there another car double parked in front of you when you first drove up?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you say that the larger truck backed in into the exit. You must have been ahead of it, isn’t that so? Otherwise it would have had to back around you if it had been ahead of you, isn’t that so?

Mr. GOIN. I believe I followed the larger car. In the trend of thinking back, I believe that I followed the larger car.

Mr. HUBERT. When your larger truck backed into the Commerce Street exit, was it in front of you or in back of you?

Mr. GOIN. Well, if I followed it to the office, it must have been in front, though I can’t remember distinctly that part of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Dietrich ever leave the smaller truck that you were in with him?

Mr. GOIN. I believe he walked down beside the truck with me.

Mr. HUBERT. But no more than that?

Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Fleming coming out and giving you instructions at any time as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Hall doing so?

Mr. GOIN. Mr. Hall?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOIN. It seems, I believe, Mr. Hall come out and spoke at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what instructions you had as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. I was in question as to what would actually take place most of the time, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You what?

Mr. GOIN. I was more or less uninformed as to what to do and was waiting instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive them?

Mr. GOIN. No. The commotion began.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the beginning of the commotion, did you get any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. I believe we talked. Mr. Hall had said something about traveling down Main Street, and I do not remember if we had agreed that there would be some other men probably want to ride in our truck, security men. I don’t remember if that was discussed with some of the officers there, or with just Mr. Dietrich and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of him in the press or on TV or anything of that sort since?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; I have seen pictures in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody around there that day that either was Ruby or looked like him?

Mr. GOIN. At that time, I certainly didn’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. But now that you do know what he looks like, can you tell us whether or not you saw anybody?

Mr. GOIN. I am sorry, I wouldn’t know him if I were to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was no conversation between us this afternoon? I mean tonight, other than what has been recorded by the stenographer, isn’t that correct?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Goin. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

TESTIMONY OF MARVIN E. HALL

The testimony of Marvin E. Hall was taken at 3:10 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Marvin E. Hall. Mr. Hall, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Hall, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now Mr. Hall, you appear today, I believe, by virtue of a specific request made by a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel, of the staff of the President’s Commission. I understand that you received that letter last Friday, July 10, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HALL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. HALL. Marvin E. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that while that is your full name, you are generally known by the name of Bert Hall, B-e-r-t?

Mr. HALL. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is sort of an official nickname?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. HALL. 4112 Sun Valley.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HALL. Forty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now?

Mr. HALL. City manager of Armored Motor Service in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same occupation that you had on November 24, 1963?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with that company?

Mr. HALL. Seven years. The reason I hesitate, I am also vice president of the company, but that is not really the main function here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. As manager of the company, do you have occasion to actually drive the vehicles that are used by the company? Did you often do so prior to November 24? Had you done so frequently?

Mr. HALL. Not frequently; as manager of the company, it is our obligation to make sure all our vehicles are in running order. We test drive them, periodically, because we go out on trips with the men. The capacity of driving a vehicle is part of knowing what is going on.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time you became manager, were you connected with the company as a driver?

Mr. HALL. No; as a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed by the FBI on June 24, 1964, the FBI agents interviewing you being Mr. W. James Wood and Manning Clements. I have, heretofore, a few minutes ago, handed to you a report by those two FBI agents of their interview with you. For the purpose of identification, I have marked the document, which consists of four pages, on the first page as follows, to wit: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Bert Hall.” Under which I have signed my name, and I have placed my initials on the succeeding three pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page. I think you have had an opportunity, have you not, sir, to read this 4-page document now marked as Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if this document is correct, or whether you desire to make any corrections or modifications or additions to this document?

Mr. HALL. There are minor adjustments to it; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have called my attention to the fourth paragraph on page 1 of that document, which describes Ed Dietrich as assistant crew chief. What comment have you to make as to that statement?

Mr. HALL. Only that he is crew chief; and I may have been misunderstood by the two men on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he crew chief on November 24?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the word “Assistant” should be deleted?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no marks on page 2, and I assume that you have no comment to make other than that it is correct?

Mr. HALL. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3, and in the second paragraph you have a mark with reference to the first sentence. I ask you what comment you have to make about that first sentence, which begins with the words “Shortly after” and ends with the words “with a shotgun”?

Mr. HALL. Only that the sentence is worded “A police officer who at this time Hall never knew ...”, and I merely point out that I met the man that morning, and knew his name at that moment, but have forgotten what it was as of this time.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt about his identity as a police officer?

Mr. HALL. Definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mr. HALL. Definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other comments to make about that sentence?

Mr. HALL. I remember seeing he was armed with a shotgun, and I am not positive whether the shotgun was his or was a part of the equipment in the truck, since we do have a shotgun in a bracket alongside the seat he occupied.

Mr. HUBERT. On which side of the seat he occupied is that gun bracket placed?

Mr. HALL. Right side.

Mr. HUBERT. On his right side, so that when getting into the seat he was sitting in, he would have to cross over or climb over the bracket, as it were?

Mr. HALL. Not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say he had a shotgun in his hand. You used the words “armed with a shotgun” and you said you weren’t sure it was the shotgun that normally comes with the truck or one which he brought himself. I take it, therefore, that you saw him with the shotgun in his hand?

Mr. HALL. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether the normal or regular shotgun that normally goes along with the truck was in the bracket as well as the one that he had in his hand?

Mr. HALL. I am not real sure. That is the normal thing to do. If you and I were to crawl into that seat with the purpose intended that we were sitting there for, we would have unbuckled the shotgun and sat there with it. It is in that handy a place.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did have a shotgun?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice that on page 3, also, you have a mark next to the third paragraph, and I think that your comment was with reference to the first sentence of that third paragraph beginning with the words “Hall said,” and ending with the words “parked there.” What comment have you to say there about that, sir?

Mr. HALL. The statement says that Hall recalls that Fleming and the patrolman with the shotgun were the only persons to enter or leave the garage through the Commerce Street entrance. I am a little vague, but I think Chief Batchelor also passed by my line of vision at that time. I do remember seeing Chief Batchelor and nodding to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that, is the statement correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, to put it affirmatively then, other than the possibility that Chief Batchelor passed by, you do not think that anyone else did?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no further marks, and I take it, therefore, that the rest of the statement which has been identified, or the report which has been identified as statement 1, is correct as modified?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall when you first got any notice whatsoever about this function that you ultimately performed on November 24?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 9:45 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You fix that in what way; sir?

Mr. HALL. I fixed that because our Sunday school class was just commencing. I was going into the classroom that I normally would teach, when I received a call from the church office that I was wanted on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was your school scheduled to begin?

Mr. HALL. 9:50.

Mr. HUBERT. 9:50?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you were going in at approximately 5 minutes before that?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you actually reached the class yet?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I was in the classroom itself.

Mr. HUBERT. But the class had not yet begun?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you normally start on time?

Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This call came about how long before you would normally have started?

Mr. HALL. Five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the call from, did you say?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?

Mr. HALL. Harold.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the call?

Mr. HALL. We were asked to provide a truck for Chief Batchelor as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Fleming told you that on the phone, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what the purpose for the use of the car would be?

Mr. HALL. Of this I am not real certain, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Fleming?

Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?

Mr. HALL. I sat for a moment trying to reconstruct the previous evenings arrangement to remember who would have keys to the terminal, since there are only two sets in existence. The most logical choice seemed to be Ed Dietrich and Don Goin. I called Ed Dietrich’s home. He had just gone down to the corner. So I called Don Goin’s home and told him to meet me down at the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what you wanted to meet him about?

Mr. HALL. I am not positive; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a set of keys?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; he would have come anyway. It is fairly usual to call one of our people and say, “I will meet you at the terminal in a few minutes, we have a problem.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to Goin?

Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute. Then I called Ed Dietrich’s home back and asked him to join us.

Mr. HUBERT. You got him on the second time?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then immediately leave the church?

Mr. HALL. I think I called Harold Fleming back, and I assured him that we could produce and agreed to meet down at the terminal. When his call first came in, there was a little bit of doubt in my mind that I could reach anybody on a moment’s notice, afraid that every man we have would be out of pocket as of Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. So that after speaking to Dietrich, you then made a third phone call?

Mr. HALL. I talked to Fleming twice; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you leave the church then?

Mr. HALL. There is a period of time of 30 minutes that I am not real positive. The time that the first call came in at 9:45--I feel reasonably sure that I was down at the terminal by 10:30. Exactly the time I left the church would be close to 10:05, because my wife had just started her Sunday school class.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did that begin?

Mr. HALL. 9:50; and I peeked into her room to quietly tell her to get home as best she could, that I had to go to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the church located?

Mr. HALL. At the corner of Colorado and Turner in Oak Cliff.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the terminal?

Mr. HALL. 1800 Leonard.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you drive?

Mr. HALL. About a 10-minute drive?

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go down?

Mr. HALL. In the car assigned to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean what route did you take?

Mr. HALL. Turner north to Greenbrier; Greenbrier east on Sylvan; Sylvan north to the Fort Worth cutoff; Fort Worth cutoff east on into town, proceeding up Commerce Street to Field; turning north on Field to Ross; and east to Ross to Leonard; north on Leonard to Flora. This is the corner the terminal is located. The reason that I feel fairly sure of that route is we are all creatures of habit, and that would be the way to go, especially in a hurry.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving faster than normal?

Mr. HALL. Not really.

Mr. HUBERT. So you think the trip took you about 10 minutes, you said?

Mr. HALL. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That would make the time of arrival at the terminal then about 10:15 or 10:20?

Mr. HALL. This could be so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was anyone else there?

Mr. HALL. I believe I was the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Who got there next?

Mr. HALL. I think the order of arrival was me, Dietrich, Goin, Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about the time intervals between their arrival after yours?

Mr. HALL. Not really; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have stated that all four of you were there at the terminal, however, at 10:30?

Mr. HALL. Approximately so; yes, sir. I remember feeling quite proud of the quick assembly time on a normally off-duty time.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred after the four of you were there? Do you remember whether there were any telephone calls to Chief Batchelor?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I believe there were. I think Fleming called Chief Batchelor at least once.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the nature of that call?

Mr. HALL. I am not sure whether Fleming got a hold of Chief Batchelor or not. I think it was to determine if one of the smaller trucks would be acceptable.

Mr. HUBERT. What was decided upon. What actually happened?

Mr. HALL. The impression we received was that the larger truck would have to be the one used.

Mr. HUBERT. Did more than one truck go?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I decided to have the smaller truck accompany the larger truck as a standby. This procedure we use in all cases of tension for double protection. We frequently send two vehicles when one would be sufficient to handle the load.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you left the terminal with the two trucks?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 10:50--10:45 or 10:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you estimate that between 15 and 20 minutes between the time all four of you were there until the two-vehicle convoy proceeded to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now who was driving the larger truck?

Mr. HALL. I was, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone with you?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the other truck, the small one?

Mr. HALL. Don Goin, I believe; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Dietrich with him?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you said, it was either Dietrich or Goin driving the other car?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I feel pretty sure it was Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you proceed from the terminal to the Dallas Police Department building?

Mr. HALL. We, in convoy fashion, the large truck leading the small truck, went south on Leonard to Ross, west on Ross to Pearl, south on Pearl to Main, west on Main to Harwood, south on Harwood to Commerce, east on Commerce just past the city hall basement entrance, and I then backed the large truck into the entranceway and indicated to the small truck to park just ahead of the passageway in reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions to back in prior to leaving the terminal?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; we had. We had had that understanding.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the Dallas Police, Commerce Street entrance, you did not wait for any further instructions, but immediately proceeded to back in?

Mr. HALL. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Fleming or anyone else assist you in backing in by way of directions and signal, and so forth?

Mr. HALL. Yes; Mr. Fleming helped with the traffic control, and then remained at the rear of the truck for further instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was that the first time that day you had been to the police department?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone of you, including yourself, have on a grayish or any other type of overcoat when you were at the police department?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I can tell by looking at you that you do not resemble Jack Ruby.

Mr. HALL. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. But I wanted you to express an opinion as to the other gentleman.

Mr. HALL. Definitely not. Goin and Dietrich were in uniform. Our standard uniform is khaki color, with .38 pistols at their side. Mr. Fleming was in a suit, and he is tall and rather thin. I would guess at least 6 inches taller than Mr. Ruby. There seems to be no resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any TV mobile van units nearby there?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you or Mr. Fleming or Mr. Goin or Mr. Dietrich ever approach any of those units, do you know?

Mr. HALL. For no reason; no, sir. There was one parked in the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just describe it.

Mr. HALL. One parked at the entrance to my right. As I pulled past the entrance and backed in, there was a TV camera stationed on top of a truck approximately here.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between you and Harwood Street?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Almost up to the Commerce entrance?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; there were a number of people, onlookers. All of them had been regimented over on the other side of the street, not any closer to the city hall than the sidewalk, to the far side of Commerce. There were approximately 50 or so people over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody on the Main Street side of Commerce? That is to say, in the area of the sidewalk between the mobile units and the building itself?

Mr. HALL. No; as we passed the Main Street side of the city hall, we were quite intent in watching the traffic and people and in getting our truck into proper position on the other side of the building, so we didn’t observe anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anyone at all go up to the window of any of the TV mobile units?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When your truck was placed on the ramp and arrived at a stationary position, would you describe what that position was relative to what part of the truck was inside the building and what part was outside the building?

Mr. HALL. My cab was even with the outside wall of the building, which would indicate that over half of the truck was indented into the building on a downward slant. The rear door of the truck would be 6 or 8 feet inside of the line formed by the outside wall of the building. Is that the answer?

Mr. HUBERT. Now you said that your cab, and therefore, you sitting in the driver’s seat of the cab, was on a line even with the outside wall of the building?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you personally from the wall on your left? In other words, how much space was there between you and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Total of about 4 feet, I would imagine; sir. There is a little parapet there. You allow for the runningboard of my truck and the open door. Between my open door and the wall would be approximately 2 feet left over.

I haven’t mentioned this; I think it is probably immaterial; a newsman walked up to my cab during this interval of waiting for something to happen and attempted to interview me, asking questions about the operation of the company, and due to the stress of the situation, I shut the door to avoid discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, does that have a window?

Mr. HALL. It is a bulletproof glass and it is sealed.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is----

Mr. HALL. This is a minor thing, but they were quite annoying.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? Did he just go on after that?

Mr. HALL. He went on about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not go into the building?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was a newspaperman?

Mr. HALL. He had a pad and a pencil and said he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. This wasn’t Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not?

Mr. HALL. No; definitely not. This was a young kid.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else pass by going into the building to your left?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are quite certain that no one did?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that no one could have without your seeing them?

Mr. HALL. It is so very unlikely.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from the interval of hesitation that although your answer has been it is very unlikely, you are not willing to make the positive statement that nobody did?

Mr. HALL. No; due to one thing. There was approximately 20 minutes of tension. There was quite a bit of activity in the area. I feel very sure that only the people designated passed my long vantage point.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say people designated, who do you mean?

Mr. HALL. Harold Fleming and the police officer and probably Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you hear the shot fired?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you backed your truck in until the time the shot was fired, did you move out of the van at all?

Mr. HALL. No; the reason is that it was parked on a slant and I wanted to make darn sure we didn’t roll or have any problem.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your engine running?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason why you didn’t go down all the way?

Mr. HALL. The height of the truck. The height of the passageway wouldn’t permit our truck down in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any question raised as to whether the truck had sufficient power to climb up that ramp if it went all the way down?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no; it is a heavy Chevrolet truck. Strictly a matter of height.

Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the right-hand side of your truck and the wall on the Harwood Street side of the Commerce entrance?

Mr. HALL. Just enough for one man to pass.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be how much, a foot, or 2 feet?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 2 feet, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were there any police guards that you saw on either side of your truck during the time it was parked?

Mr. HALL. Sitting in the driver’s seat looking out the left door to the rear, I could observe a police guard beyond the rear of the truck on the left side. I assumed there were police guards on the right side also, even though from my vantage point I couldn’t see him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did see a police guard to your left?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In the space between the truck and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Behind the--further back down, sir, not standing directly between the truck and the building; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor was there any, I take it then, at the very entrance between your truck and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Not stationed permanently at that spot to stand still; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, were there some moving?

Mr. HALL. I have to explain this hesitation. I am trying to recall. At the time, there was quite a bit of activity there. There were policemen moving, patrol type situation. Two on the corner, two out in the street directing traffic, one up at the door to the new part of the city hall, and one out on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in front of your truck more or less?

Mr. HALL. Front and to the left; yes, sir. I am not just real positive, but one policeman may have gone through that passageway.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in civilian clothes?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no; gosh, no. There is another reason for this. The concentration of newsmen was apparently already at their posts down in the basement when we got there.

Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell that?

Mr. HALL. When you back into an opening and look through your rear-view mirror, or also turn around and look down the left side of your truck, you see a concentration of people down in a rather dark basement area. There was excitement down there. We were on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell there was excitement? By movement, or sound?

Mr. HALL. By movement and noise. Am I being direct enough?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fleming during any of this period?

Mr. HALL. Very minimal. “What is going on? Are they ready?”

Mr. HUBERT. Had any signal arrangement been made between you as to when to start off, and so forth?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. You were simply waiting instructions then as to what to do?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told as to what route to follow?

Mr. HALL. The policeman got into the cab and briefly said his understanding was that we would turn left and have an escort and would probably go on up to Central Express, over to Main, and down to the county courthouse by the most direct route. I feel that this was a little conjecture on his part and mine both.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had stopped in the final position of the truck did this policeman come and sit next to you?

Mr. HALL. Three to five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. HALL. Strict estimate; it wasn’t immediately. It wasn’t toward the latter part of the waiting period. It was in the early part of the waiting period, and I feel that 3 to 5 minutes was a fairly accurate estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you converse with this gentleman?

Mr. HALL. Briefly; we shook hands, smiled at each other, and sat there.

Mr. HUBERT. He stayed there until after the shot was fired?

Mr. HALL. He stayed in the truck until we pulled over across the street and until after the ambulance had gone by.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was in uniform?

Mr. HALL. Yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any kind of records kept by your company concerning the movement of the trucks?

Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir. This Sunday morning adventure was such an unusual thing and participated in by two administrators of the company, that we made no formal truck report as you normally would when you come in off a run. We made an informal memo report, I did, and mailed it to our home office in Fort Worth, Monday morning, describing the situation, just for the file.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that report contain any reference to the various times that we have discussed? For example, today, and particularly the time of leaving the terminal and returning to the terminal?

Mr. HALL. No; it was just a rough informal memo to Mr. Mastin, the president of the organization, putting on paper what we had done.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any charge made to the city for this service?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; we were available to the city for emergency use. Couldn’t very well charge when we don’t accomplish our mission.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think that is all I have; sir. I now would like to ask you this question so the record may be clear. There has been some informal discussion between you and me since you came in, but I believe, and I ask you whether you concur in this, that all that we discussed informally has been again discussed formally in the sense that it has been recorded?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all, and thank you very much indeed.

TESTIMONY OF CECIL E. TALBERT

The testimony of Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas, were present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Captain Cecil E. Talbert. Captain Talbert, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I understand, Captain, that you appear today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has the right to have a 3-day written notice personally directed to him prior to the taking of his deposition, but the rules also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day written notice if they wish.

Captain TALBERT. I wish to waive.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you now if you are willing.

Captain TALBERT. Please.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain TALBERT. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, you have previously given a deposition in this matter, which I think was on March 24, 1964, isn’t that correct?

Captain TALBERT. I gave a previous deposition; yes, sir. The date is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. For that reason, I will not make any attempt to take any information concerning who you are and so forth. I take it you are still with the police department in the capacity you were when your deposition was last taken?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to inquire about a number of matters that were touched upon, I think, last time concerning which we need some elaboration, and that is the reason for calling you back. As I recall the matter, you came on duty on November 24 early in the morning to relieve Captain Frazier, is that not so?

Captain TALBERT. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. What time, do you remember, did you come on duty?

Captain TALBERT. I would have to give you an approximation, sir, between 6 and 6:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. What shift was it that you were coming on?

Captain TALBERT. It is referred to as the second platoon, working days, as it operates from 7 to 3.

Mr. HUBERT. But you came on sometime before the actual beginning?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Frazier was there when you came?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand also that you proceeded to set up certain security measures in the entire building?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not? What security measures did you begin to set up in the morning when you got there?

Captain TALBERT. Later in the morning at approximately 9 o’clock I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to get squads in to set up security measures in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. The basement being referred to as the automotive drive area and the area where the prisoner, if he were transferred, would be exposed? That is to say, the basement would be the two ramps and the parking area, is that correct?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and the approach to the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. It is actually below the first floor?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not taken any kind of security precautions prior to that?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now what security precautions did you initiate at about 9 o’clock, you say, on November 24?

Captain TALBERT. I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to----

Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; Rio Sam Pierce. I instructed him to go over the detail and pull three squads from each of the three outlying stations and four from central stations to acquire as many men as possible by utilizing two-man squads, and search the basement area, clear it, and then keep it cleared of everything but authorized personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you do that----

Captain TALBERT. By basement area, let me refer back again to the area that we previously defined.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that on your own initiative, or were you directed or requested to do that by anyone?

Captain TALBERT. I did it on my own due to the buildup of public curiosity seekers around the building, as well as the buildup around the city jail, and traffic conditions in the downtown area on Sunday were extraordinarily heavy due to the situation that had just occurred. And I thought that if a transfer were made, then we should have some precautions to safeguard it, and also to keep from having chaos in attempting to do it immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware then that the transfer of Oswald would be made by utilizing some part of the basement area, or were you just assuming that it would?

Captain TALBERT. Strictly an assumption, sir, and from the fact that he might not. Transfer was strictly an assumption from the press, what had been released in the press the day before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not know at that time that Oswald would be transferred on Sunday?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been in contact with any superior prior to the institution of these security precautions you have just described?

Captain TALBERT. I had talked to Chief Curry on the telephone in the early morning hours just prior to 7, somewhere along there.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered that in your previous deposition.

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time direct you to institute any security precautions?

Captain TALBERT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you institute any security precautions other than the ones that you just described concerning the basement?

Captain TALBERT. That I described in the previous deposition, or presently?

Mr. HUBERT. No; in the present one.

Captain TALBERT. You mean further along in the morning, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, no. I was thinking about security precautions in other areas than the basement at that time.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I didn’t have the personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any steps to initiate security precautions as to other areas than the basement at any time on Sunday?

Captain TALBERT. When the crowd began to get heavy, began to gather on Commerce Street, then on the Commerce Street side we had had the previous warning from the FBI and an anonymous caller of a possible mob action, so we moved the civilians from the north side of Commerce to the south side of Commerce and stationed, or had Sergeant Steele station some reserve officers out there to maintain the free sidewalk as well as the surveillance of the ground.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that done at your direction and order?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive instructions from some person higher in command than you to do it, or did you do it on your own initiative?

Captain TALBERT. I just saw the necessity of doing it, so I did it on my own initiative.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive from anyone any specific instructions concerning security precautions other than what you have mentioned?

Captain TALBERT. In reference to the original deposition, I pointed out in there about the receiving of instructions and transferring the prisoner from the city jail to the county jail. I received instructions on this.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom?

Captain TALBERT. From Chief Lumpkin and Chief Stevenson at the time they told me about the prisoner being transferred, that he would be transferred in an armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that, do you know? I mean the time that you received that information and these instructions?

Captain TALBERT. I was trying to refer to something for a time. 10:30 to 10:45, somewhere in that vicinity. It would have been in the vicinity of 10:30 or 10:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive any other instructions concerning security from anyone?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Well, may I qualify that. You mean prior to Oswald’s shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were any conversations concerning the transfer of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. I am sure there were many, but not in my presence.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to Lieutenant Pierce regarding the security measures he should take with reference to the basement area?

Captain TALBERT. Clear it and seal it off, or seal it off rather and then clear it, and search it.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what “seal it off” means?

Captain TALBERT. Station officers at the entrances or exits and insure unauthorized personnel not entering the area.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down to the basement yourself?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you examine to see all possible entrances and direct that the sealing off process cover those possible entrances?

Captain TALBERT. May I qualify again, or ask a question? Do you mean did I direct the actual sealing off?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I did not. I examined it after it had been sealed off to see if it had been properly done, and in my opinion it had been.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the clearing process consisted of what? The clearing out or checking whether the building had been sealed, the basement had been sealed?

Captain TALBERT. Clearing all of the civilian employees out. They had a check. This was done before I went to the basement. But I was instructed, or not instructed, I mean informed after I went down to examine it, of the step by step process that had been taken in checking the news personnel back in, or checking them in the jail office that were in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, it was not all cleared out of everybody and then accredited personnel let in, but rather those that were in there were checked out to see if they were accredited?

Captain TALBERT. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the accreditation consisted of their being authentic news media people?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you given any instructions to the effect that news media were to be permitted to remain in the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it then your own initiative that news media were not to be removed from the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?

Captain TALBERT. I qualify that in that Sergeant Putnam--as I recall, Sergeant Putnam--it possibly could have been Sergeant Dean was present at the time when Chief Curry told the newsmen there was no point in their setting up their TV cameras and equipment on the third floor, that the man would come through the jail office of the basement. I didn’t personally hear it. It was told by him or one of the other of my superiors that Chief Curry had given them that information, or permission, if you wish.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not clear the basement of news media because you understood from Sergeant Putnam or someone else that he had heard Chief Curry say to the news media that there was no use in their setting up their equipment on the third floor since the transfer would be made through the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes. They were in the process of setting up their live television cameras and what-have-you, when he gave them this information.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check with anyone to see if the news media would be permitted to remain in the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I say----

Mr. HUBERT. Sure; go ahead.

Captain TALBERT. Could we hold this up just a moment?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but let me say this, whatever we say off the record----

Captain TALBERT. I can go back on the record. I just want to know if you want something.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s go off the record, with the understanding that we must put the contents of what you tell me off the record into it, you see.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go on the record. Why don’t you just state that? Let’s put it this way. There was a short conversation, the substance of which will now be covered by Captain Talbert.

Captain TALBERT. On my previous deposition it was apparently stated as a fact that we utilized the existing general order in following our usual procedure in handling news personnel, and that is general order No. 81. I have since checked it to make sure that is the correct general order number, and that general order was supplemented in 1963 after two incidents in which news personnel felt they had been held away from their story because of unnecessary precautions by police officers, and it was quite adequate as far as assisting them in obtaining their story.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were operating under the provisions of that order No. 81, as amended?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. I have the amendment. I mean I have No. 81, and I have the additional amendment with me, but I would rather you get it from the department rather than me.

Mr. HUBERT. If you have a copy that could be available, I would just as soon get it.

Captain TALBERT. I was curious enough to make a copy after I was here before. No. 81 is the top figure, and the bottom is the amendment. Not the amendment; actually it is an emphasis of No. 81 where it was emphasized it was to be followed, with punitive measures to be taken if it were not.

Mr. HUBERT. In connection with your present deposition, Captain Talbert, I am going to mark as an exhibit the documents you have just referred to, as follows: “Dallas Police Department General Order No. 81 entitled ‘Press Releases’, dated June 15, 1958.” I am marking that for the purpose of identification as “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert,” signing my name below that, consisting of really about a third of the page. And the second document you have handed me is a photostatic copy of a long memo dated February 7, 1963, addressed to all members of the department, apparently signed by Chief of Police J. E. Curry, that I am marking as follows, for identification: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert”, and I am signing my name below that exhibit. Now Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2 are the police directives or orders that you were referring to a moment ago?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversations you had with Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry or Deputy Chief Stevenson?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; to some extent.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what they were?

Captain TALBERT. Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin wanted to go to the third floor for a cup of coffee, ostensibly. I assume that the true purpose was to tell me about the armored car transfer. And instead, I took them to the second floor to my sergeant’s room, or conference room where we had a pot of coffee made, and while we were drinking coffee there they told me that the transfer would be made, that it would be made in an armored car, and wanted me to have a man or two men available on the Commerce Street side to assist the driver of the armored car in backing in. At that time they were concerned about the height of the armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about what time that was, sir?

Captain TALBERT. Again, I am going to give you an approximation of 10:30 to 10:45.

Mr. HUBERT. That conversation on the second floor was with Chief Batchelor?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. HUBERT. And Lumpkin?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry at that time?

Captain TALBERT. Not with Chief Curry. When Chief Batchelor came to the basement, we had quite a few commentaries on various parts of security, but verbatim, I can’t recall what they were.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the general nature?

Captain TALBERT. He was checking what we had done there. Chief Batchelor came into the basement parking area, the one we had sealed off, and had checked it, or was checking it, in the process of checking it, and in checking it we had some brief conversation. We moved two cars out on the Commerce Street side prior to the arrival of the armored car, and he moved his car, and I believe Chief Curry’s car; had them moved out, I should say. I didn’t move them myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?

Captain TALBERT. They were parked in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Captain TALBERT. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t they by the railing?

Captain TALBERT. Oh, I am sorry, they were always parked in the same place, so I am sure they were there. As you turn into the drive, or rather from the drive into the parking area, the chief’s car is always parked to the right or on the south side of the drive.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the cars were removed from the space that the cameras were ultimately placed?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; they would have been on the opposite side.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the removal of the cars that were in the spaces ultimately and later occupied by the TV cameras?

Captain TALBERT. The TV cameras were the ones that were set up as permanent installations. They were already set up, and there were no cars there when I arrived in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at what time?

Captain TALBERT. Again an approximation of 10 o’clock; in the vicinity of 10.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not give orders for the clearing of that space of automobiles so that the cameras could occupy that space?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did give such orders?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don’t know that they were given.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any orders to the effect that the news media were to be kept behind the railing? That is to say, on the east side of the railing that divided the ramp from the garage area?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Although I was in and out of the basement, it might have occurred, but it didn’t occur while I was in the basement. Now Chief Batchelor did rearrange the news media, I think, on two different times. He was trying to arrange them in a better situation for us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe that?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I wasn’t in the basement when either move was made. May I inject here that I was operating a patrol platoon, and this was extracurricular.

Mr. HUBERT. What you say is that you believe, or have learned that Chief Batchelor made two efforts, to your knowledge, to change the press position?

Captain TALBERT. I have been told that; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a conversation by telephone that you had with Lieutenant Pierce at Parkland Hospital after the shooting of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Not with Lieutenant Pierce; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any with anyone else?

Captain TALBERT. I had several conversations from Parkland Hospital on the telephone after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about them, please?

Captain TALBERT. Well, I was at Parkland to clear the hospital and make sure that the chaos or confusion didn’t transmit into the hospital itself, and also secure the area where the prisoner was being operated on. And the Governor was there. There was a peculiar situation in that he was on the same floor in close proximity to the operating room where Oswald was being operated on. I was trying to get all the confusion away from the room he was in. He was in the intensive care room. As soon as personnel was placed, I started making telephone calls trying to check to find out how the fellow got in the basement, the fellow being referred to, of course, as Ruby. And I don’t recall a specific conversation with Lieutenant Pierce, although I am sure I did talk to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anyone else you spoke to?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would that be?

Captain TALBERT. I spoke to R. E. Vaughn. I spoke to Nelson. I spoke to, I believe, now let me see, I think I got a hold of Jez who was on the Commerce Street entrance. I was contacting the men on the various entrances to see how it could have happened, how he could have got in there. Is there such a thing as my correcting an error I made in my first deposition here?

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly; absolutely.

Captain TALBERT. I said in my first deposition, and I recall that after leaving, after my conversation with Chief Curry on the telephone that morning, I didn’t talk to him again that day. And for some reason or other, I overlooked the fact that I did talk to him from the hospital. I talked to him twice, possibly three times. I called him, or rather was called by him at the hospital to find out what the condition of Oswald, the existing condition was, and then I called him back sometime during the middle of the operation when I got a report on it, and called back again to tell him the time of Oswald’s death immediately after his death.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about how the security had broken down during any of those three conversations?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Patrick Dean, Sergeant Dean at Parkland?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, he had assigned some of the men out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you about what Ruby had told him as to how he had gotten into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That was the first information that I had received on how Ruby said he got into the basement, was from Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you spoke to Vaughn and Jez who were respectively at the Main Street and Commerce Street entrances?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to Dean, was that before or after you had spoken to Vaughn?

Captain TALBERT. As I recall my contact--I had many contacts with Vaughn regarding, as you may well know, and as I recall that contact, it was after, because I was being rather dogmatic about who was around that entrance with Vaughn at the time. As I recall it, I may be in error here, it might have been after. I mean, it might have been prior to my contact with Dean, and then subsequent contact with Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first talked to Vaughn, let’s put it this way, did you know that Ruby claimed to have come through the entrance that Vaughn was guarding?

Captain TALBERT. I would like to answer you positively, Mr. Hubert, but I can’t. It was the first or second contact. It possibly was the second, but I think it was the first. I believe it was the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the conversation you had with Dean where he told you what Ruby had said about how he entered, was at the hospital site?

Captain TALBERT. Verbatim, you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. No. I mean when you talked to Dean and he told you about what Ruby had said, as to Dean, as to how he got in, that conversation with Dean was at the hospital?

Captain TALBERT. At the hospital; yes, sir. I am sorry, I thought you meant what was my conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Vaughn prior to that time?

Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall. I really can’t recall, Mr. Hubert. I don’t believe I had been able to get in touch with him. You see, getting into telephone contact with these people took a little time, and it also didn’t occur until after I had cleared the lobby of the hospital and posted guards at the doors. But I can’t recall. I mean I can’t remember to give you a definite answer on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Pierce, Lieutenant Pierce about how Ruby came into the basement, if you recall?

Captain TALBERT. Many times.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the first time that you talked to him, do you remember?

Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall the first time. I can’t recall actually getting in touch with Pierce from the hospital. Now I possibly did, but I was a busy man, and I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did talk to Pierce about how Ruby claimed he entered into the basement, did he seem to know about it?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. He was quite vociferous, in fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Vociferous in what way?

Captain TALBERT. Language. We wouldn’t want to put it in this deposition, sir. By that I mean he was alleging that he had entered that Main Street entrance. Lieutenant Pierce said he couldn’t have. And then the vociferousness.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a matter of emphasis on that point?

Captain TALBERT. Was an emphasis on Ruby’s character, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Pierce’s reaction was that it was not true, so far as he knew?

Captain TALBERT. His reaction was startled, and that he even alleged that he came in that way, and that it couldn’t possibly have been true.

Mr. HUBERT. By that you mean that the information conveyed to you by Pierce was that Ruby claimed to have entered through the Main Street entrance as Pierce went out, and Pierce’s reaction was negative on that, and of a vociferous nature?

Captain TALBERT. And startled, as I recall. Sam can be rather positive in his views. He is positive in his views, not can be. And he was very positive in that.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime on the morning of the 24th that threats had come through concerning the harm to Oswald during the transfer?

Captain TALBERT. I am sorry?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime prior to Oswald’s shooting that threats had come to the attention of the police department concerning the safety of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That is the reason I took the action of--if you will analyze what I did with assigning the total personnel that I had assigned that day, and that included myself, including all the patrolmen and supervisors, I took all the precautions possible against mob action, and took elementary precautions against an individual action. And needless to say, from the subsequent events, it was unsuccessful.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact address your consideration of security measures to both types of threats? That is, to the mob action and single action by one man?

Captain TALBERT. Right, sir. The individual officer on Main Street, for instance, we had the buildup of the crowd on the opposite side of the building on Commerce where the people obviously knew was an exit ramp, so the individual officer on Main Street was one of, if not the best patrolmen I have. He is the type person that you can depend on thoroughly, and quite sizable physically. I don’t know whether you have met Vaughn or not, but if we went into physical combat, I would want an edge on him of some sort. And if an individual had tried to attack him to get in, we had adequate personnel in the basement to take care of him if they got past. In my opinion, they would never have gotten past. If a mob had tried to attack him, we still had adequate personnel. We had a total of four--let me correct that. I know positively that we had three tear gas cases down there as well as numerous shotguns or side arms, and we could have taken care of mob action with the short notification we would have had after they go past Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said earlier that you took elaborate precautions against a mob, but I think you used the word elementary. What do you mean by that? What contrast do you mean to point out?

Captain TALBERT. Really, you can erase it. With the normal procedure, the precautions taken were adequate either way, with normal procedure. But capricious, if as this investigation has developed, the entry of Ruby occurred at the time and place in which he said it was, and which apparently is true, capricious fate entered into it on the time element for sure at the exit of a vehicle on an entrance ramp, which is the first time that occurred in a number of years. Something I certainly didn’t foresee, and that is what I was referring to when I said elementary.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, what would have been completely adequate security against one-man action?

Captain TALBERT. Secret transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. By secret, you mean done in such a way and in such a manner that there would not have been a crowd around? Transferred at night?

Captain TALBERT. No announcement. We know that now. It is quite obvious now.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is, to guard against one-man action you have to do it in such a way that there are not a great many people around?

Captain TALBERT. Anybody can be murdered by an individual who is willing to give up his life to do so. I don’t care who it is or where it is, he can be murdered if he wants to give up his life to do it and has adequate time, and the only way to prevent it is to keep him completely away from him and to do it effectively, it has to be a surreptitious action. It can’t be an open action.

Mr. HUBERT. It can’t be, in other words, where there are lots of people milling around?

Captain TALBERT. That’s right, or where a lot of people have knowledge of it. If a lot of people have knowledge of the action, in itself that constitutes a danger.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, in your deposition on March 24, 1964, you identified an exhibit which was given Exhibit No. 5066 then, which contains at the very bottom of that page the following sentence, to wit: “He stated in the rush to get into the basement where the loading ramp was located and Oswald was being brought down from the jail, it is highly possible that Jack Ruby may have walked down the ramp with the newspapermen unnoticed.” Now two questions I would like to explore there. What was the rush to get into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. I made an exception to that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the exception?

Captain TALBERT. It either was through my semantics or their shorthand. It just isn’t true. There was no rush.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that comment true about the second thought contained in that sentence, and that is, “it is highly possible that Ruby may have come along with the newspapermen unnoticed”?

Captain TALBERT. At first we were contemplating--I am sorry, wrong word--we had information, and this was by some unknown person, that Channel 5 camera coming through the door late, the last camera that come down, started in with a two-man crew and ended up with a three-man crew, and that is what I was referring to there. That was proved to be untrue. One of the newsmen who was already in there stepped up to help steady the camera as it come around the threshold.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what you had reference to?

Captain TALBERT. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir. And this rushing newspaperman, I am sure it is probably my poor English semantics.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how the press knew that the route would be through the basement area there?

Captain TALBERT. Sorry, sir; I didn’t hear your question.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how the news people knew that the route would be through the basement area?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I back up? When you say how the route would be, you mean whether it would be from the jail office elevator, or from the other elevator?

Mr. HUBERT. Or from any other way.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. It was apparent, though, that it would be that way, from the general setup of things?

Captain TALBERT. The normal procedure would have been that way; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on that morning, the fact of the arrangement of the cameras and bringing up of the armored truck and so forth would have indicated that?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; it would have indicated it.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe that is all, Captain Talbert, unless there is something you wish to say.

Captain TALBERT. Can we get off the record and ask you a question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; we have to put it back on the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. You have brought up a point that you said you wished clarified, and it was to this effect. You stated to me during the off-the-record discussion that while you were at the hospital, Captain Fritz came to you and asked you whether or not you had told him to come ahead, at which time you said to him, “Yes.” You say to me now that what you had in mind when you told him “Yes,” that you had said to him “Come on ahead” was an earlier conversation or telephone call that you had had with Captain Fritz, and not the come-ahead signal just prior to the Oswald movement.

Captain TALBERT. Actually, the earlier call was to Fritz’ office, and I talked to a Detective Beck. Captain Fritz was interrogating the prisoner and couldn’t answer the phone, so I told Detective Beck to pass on the information to him that the basement had been searched. Whether he ever received that information or not, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your understanding now that Captain Fritz thought when you told him “Yes” at the hospital, that you had given the all-clear signal, you thought he was referring to the telephone call?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But apparently he thought you were referring to an all-clear signal just prior to the exit of Oswald from the jail?

Captain TALBERT. From the jail elevator; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To get the whole matter straight, your point is you did not give an all-clear signal to Captain Fritz just before Oswald was brought out of the jail, is that correct?

Captain TALBERT. That is quite true. I was out in the driveway and didn’t know Oswald was down myself. Lieutenant Wiggins has given a deposition clarifying his asking about it coming off of the elevator, but I thought if a conflict arose in Captain Fritz’ deposition, this possibly would clear it up.

Mr. HUBERT. What you have told us just now, does it cover everything you told me off the record?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else?

Captain TALBERT. It’s been a pleasure talking to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I will just ask you this general question. Has everything that we have talked about this morning been covered in the record in one way or another?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; it has.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down again.

TESTIMONY OF MARJORIE R. RICHEY

The testimony of Marjorie R. Richey was taken at 2:40 p.m., on July 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NW., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mr. Harold Richey also was present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is customary in starting these depositions for the interrogator to introduce himself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has been authorized as a result of an Executive order issued by President Johnson November 29 and as a result of a joint resolution of Congress to investigate into and to report back to the President on all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have a set of procedures which have been set up by the Commission acting under the authority of the Executive order and the joint resolution, and under the procedures I have been given authority to take your deposition.

Now the general area of inquiry that we are going to be dealing with in particular this afternoon has to do with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald and most particularly what you, Mrs. Richey, know about Jack Ruby and any contacts you had with him in particular in the few days just before Oswald was killed. However, if you have any information that might be of use to the Commission in any other area that we are investigating, why of course, we would like very much to hear about it.

Did you receive a letter from the Commission requesting you to come here? Would you state for the record when you received that letter?

Mrs. RICHEY. I got two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the most recent?

Mrs. RICHEY. The first one was sent to Dallas. This was before Harold and I were married. You had better stop because I am wrong. Hal and I were married in December and I talked to the FBI before this, and they had my name Ethier, that was before I was married. They had my address in Dallas. So Hal and I moved up here. They sent the letter to my home in Texas and my sister signed for the letter, and then she called me and she sent it to me airmail special delivery. So I could read it myself, and it took 3 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What we are concerned about, of course, is the most recent letter that you got in connection with this appearance.

Mrs. RICHEY. This is it, and I got it yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have written notice 3 days in advance of your appearing here.

Mrs. RICHEY. I wished I had known that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you if, nonetheless, you are willing to go ahead.

Mrs. RICHEY. Oh; let’s go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And give us the testimony. Do you have any questions before we start about the nature of the investigation?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if there is anything that I could clarify for you. I think it fairly obvious from what I have said the general areas we are going to cover. Let me ask you to raise your right hand then and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mrs. RICHEY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your full name, please?

Mrs. RICHEY. Marjorie Ruth Richey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell your last name?

Mrs. RICHEY. R-i-c-h-e-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you presently living, Mrs. Richey?

Mrs. RICHEY. In Mentor, Ohio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mrs. RICHEY. 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Mentor, Ohio?

Mrs. RICHEY. About 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your home before that?

Mrs. RICHEY. Irving, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Texas?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RICHEY. The previous address, the last one that we lived at was 134 West Lively.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. RICHEY. 2215 Cunningham.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that also Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time were you employed by Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your employment with him?

Mrs. RICHEY. I was a waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What club did you work at?

Mrs. RICHEY. Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you worked for Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. Since June of the same year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever worked for him before?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for him continuously from June until November 22?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you work every night of the week or did you have some nights off?

Mrs. RICHEY. Sometimes I worked every night and sometimes I got a night off. Never a regular day off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a salary?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you paid?

Mrs. RICHEY. Tips. That is what we earned our money by, tips.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other waitresses were there normally at the Carousel Club?

Mrs. RICHEY. Before this happened?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the 22d of November; yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. Generally three or four.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all paid on a tip basis?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any idea of what your normal amount of tips would be that you would get in a week?

Mrs. RICHEY. In a week?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. It varied so much.

Mr. RICHEY. May I ask a question, please?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. RICHEY. This testimony she is giving to you now on the amount of money that she earned, can this be used by Internal Revenue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would rather not talk about it, it is all going to be a matter of record, and if this is an area that you would rather not go into----

Mr. RICHEY. It is not that. It is just as you know none of these girls pay taxes and they can come back on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s not go into this then. What I am trying to get at is to get some idea of what the people who worked for Ruby were making.

Mrs. RICHEY. I was telling the truth though. It really varies. Some nights you may make a dollar and the next night you may make $50. It just depends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there were nights when you made as much as $50?

Mrs. RICHEY. I never did but I mean there were waitresses that did, but they had been, you know, working as waitresses a lot longer than I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were your hours at the Carousel Club?

Mrs. RICHEY. 7:30 to about 1:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did the shows start at the club?

Mrs. RICHEY. 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to work on the night of Thursday, November 21? That is the night before President Kennedy arrived in town.

Mrs. RICHEY. Oh, gosh, I don’t know really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. President Kennedy was assassinated on Friday. Do you have any present recollection of having been there?

Mrs. RICHEY. I must have probably.

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; you worked there a week before I left. I worked on the 20th.

Mrs. RICHEY. Then I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said though that November 21 was not a night when you remembered anything in particular about what happened?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you aware before the President arrived in Dallas that he was coming to Dallas?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t even really know that for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having talked with Jack Ruby or Jack Ruby ever having mentioned anything about the President’s coming to Dallas?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with a dancer by the name of Tammi True?

Mrs. RICHEY. I knew her as a speaking acquaintance, but as far as really being friendly with her, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that during the week before the President was assassinated, that Tammi quit her job or left her employment with Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. I know she quit; but I can’t say that it was right there in that week. I can’t remember these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you remember about the circumstances under which she quit?

Mrs. RICHEY. Under which she quit?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did she have an argument with Mr. Ruby or what was the reason that you know about?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know really. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the day that the President was killed which is Friday, November 22, do you remember where you were at the time that you first learned President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. I was in bed asleep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did it come to your attention?

Mrs. RICHEY. My mother was watching “As the World Turns” and she woke me and she says, “The President’s been shot” and I said, “huh.” And she said, “Yea.” I said, “You are kidding” and she said, “come here and see it. It is on the TV.” I had just got in there and then they were down there, the reporters and all were down there, and that is where I was at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the first contact you had that day on the 22d with anybody associated with the Carousel Club?

Mrs. RICHEY. With Andrew I guess. I am not real sure. Now I can’t be positive about these things. I remember more after he was killed because I was asked questions about it, you know, about the days afterwards. But before they didn’t ask me and they don’t stick in my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe my question isn’t clear. I am asking you after you heard that the President had been shot----

Mrs. RICHEY. The President had been shot?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; when did you next hear from or talk to somebody connected with the club?

Mrs. RICHEY. I must have talked to the man that kept bar, because I think that I called him and asked him if we were going to be open that night because it was saying that the rest of the clubs were going to be closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that man?

Mrs. RICHEY. Andrew Armstrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you telephoned him at?

Mrs. RICHEY. At his home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he--you have any clear recollection of this?

Mrs. RICHEY. I remember that I talked to Andrew but I don’t remember if I talked to someone else before. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first learn that the clubs were going to be closed?

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I must have talked to Andrew two or three times that day because he didn’t know for sure or not. No, that wasn’t right; or was it. Wait, I’ve got to think a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your time.

Mrs. RICHEY. I talked to Jack the night before he killed Lee Harvey Oswald. I talked to Jack over the phone, and he told me that the clubs were going to be closed, but I thought it was on a Saturday night. Didn’t he kill Oswald on a Sunday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I can’t remember now. I told the FBI and they know the real date and I can’t even remember right now if it was Friday night or Saturday night that I talked to him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate on the 26th of November when you talked with the FBI that you talked to Ruby around noon on Saturday, the 23d.

Mrs. RICHEY. That is the day after the President was shot, so that was Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. So that is right. I talked to him the day before. But I don’t think it was noon and I don’t think I told him it was noon. It seems like it was later in the evening. It may not have been. I can’t really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s think about Friday. I am trying to get at what you might have learned about the clubs on Friday. Did you go to work on Friday?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the evening that the President was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. No, we were closed; yes, because we were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

Mr. RICHEY. If I can help, you called me. You had called me.

Mrs. RICHEY. On the Friday? I am sure now. I almost positive that we were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because everything else was closed. I am pretty sure that they were closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your husband suggested that you called him sometime?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday. What do you remember about that telephone conversation?

Mrs. RICHEY. Nothing. I mean he was watching television. No, did I call you then? Are you sure?

Mr. RICHEY. You called me late Friday afternoon.

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that either. I remember talking to you when Jack shot Lee Oswald. I am sorry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether on Friday you knew that the clubs were going to be closed for all 3 days?

Mrs. RICHEY. I am pretty sure. No, our club was going to be closed. If I am not mistaken they were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first learn that it was going to be closed for 3 days?

Mrs. RICHEY. I think Andrew must have called me Friday and told me that we were going to close that night, and then the next day I called him to find out. It seems like that is the way it was, that I called him to find out if we were going to work and he told me to call Jack and I called Jack and Jack told me that we were going to be closed Saturday and Sunday. If I am not mistaken that is the way it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you call Jack?

Mrs. RICHEY. At his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have indicated that you think it was sometime other than noon?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t be real sure. To me right now it seems like that it was later than noon. It may not have been. I am not real sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection on the 26th of November about it would have been better than it is now?

Mrs. RICHEY. Oh, definitely; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you. Some people I think perhaps who knew Jack were upset and nervous and perhaps didn’t really remember accurately, weren’t able to accurately state what did happen when they were first interviewed. Were you so nervous and upset about it that you wouldn’t have remembered accurately on the 26th of November what you had done on Saturday? What was your state of mind?

Mrs. RICHEY. I was pretty shaken up, I know that. It is a pretty terrible thing to have happened, so close to you, you just don’t think it can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark for identification here what is a report of an interview which two agents of the FBI, Peggs and Zimmerman, had with you on November 26. I am going to mark that Marjorie R. Richey Deposition Exhibit No. 1, July 21, 1964, Washington, D.C.

(The document referred to was marked Marjorie R. Richey Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will give you a chance to read it. Look that over and see if that interview report refreshes your recollection in any way.

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t believe I said “several years ago.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the sentence that you are referring to?

Mrs. RICHEY. It says:

“Mrs. Ethier has been working at the Carousel since”--no, that is wrong. “She first met Jack Ruby several years ago through her sister.”

I don’t think I said several years ago, because I know now I might have said that but I know that it wasn’t several years, I am sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the 22d of November, 1963, did you think you met Jack?

Mrs. RICHEY. About a year before that, because Janice, we call her Nice and Janice--had been working there for about a year I think. Now these aren’t accurate dates, but about a year. I don’t believe I said several years. I may have. I mean like you said I might have been upset and I was nervous. As far as I know except for that “several years” that is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then is it your best recollection at this time that it is accurate that you called Jack Ruby about noon on Saturday?

Mrs. RICHEY. That is something else I can’t be sure about. It may have been noon. I just don’t remember. To me it seemed later than that, but it may not have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how long did you talk with Jack on that occasion?

Mrs. RICHEY. Not but just a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything he said to you?

Mrs. RICHEY. I remember I called him and I said, “Jack, this is Margie.” He said, “Yes.” and I said, “Could you tell me if we are going to be open tonight?” and he said, “No, isn’t it terrible?” and I said, “Do you mean about the President?” and he said, “Yes.” and his voice was shaking and this isn’t like him.

I mean it really was. And then I said, “Well, we are not going to be open.” because I didn’t want to go into it because that is what everybody was talking about, and I, you know. So then he said, “No, we won’t be open tonight or tomorrow night.”

“Sunday night” I believe is what he said. We were always open 7 days a week and this was unusual to me because Jack very seldom ever closed the club. So I mean this is why I can pretty well remember this. I could see him staying closed one night, but the other two clubs in Dallas were opening, so I figured you know that he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that they were?

Mrs. RICHEY. It was in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you checked the newspaper before you called him?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that. I must have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Irving do you get a Dallas paper?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you subscribe to a Dallas paper at that time?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember that. I lived with my parents at the time that this happened, and if there was a Dallas morning newspaper there, well then it could have been before noon. But if there wasn’t a morning newspaper there it had to be a Times Herald and that comes in the afternoon, and I don’t remember which paper I read.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Friday or Saturday did you talk with any other people connected with the Carousel Club except for Andy Armstrong and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Little Lynn?

Mrs. RICHEY. No. I don’t know any of the showgirls. I mean the only girls that I was friendly with at all was the other waitresses. I mean I would talk to them, you know, like that, but as far as really you know, knowing them or anything like that, well I didn’t. It was just the other waitresses. And I may have talked to Bonny or Becky, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to or see Jack Ruby again after----

Mrs. RICHEY. After I talked to him on Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since then have you talked with anyone or learned anything about when Jack first got the idea about shooting Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. We talked this at the club. I mean everybody was talking about it. But as far as anybody saying that--when he was going to shoot Oswald or anything like this, I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Kathy Kay at all?

Mrs. RICHEY. No. In fact I think I just saw Kathy Kay one time after the club was reopened--was all that I saw her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t she come back to work?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; she didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had she been working there?

Mrs. RICHEY. Longer than I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think it was unusual that she didn’t come back to work?

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, not really. She went with a policeman in Dallas, so to me I think this, you know, he would have probably felt that this would look bad on him for Kathy working there. This was my impression, I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know this policeman that she was going with?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know his name and I doubt if I’d know him if I saw him today, but I mean he had come in the club and I remember he was a real tall guy, nice built, but I don’t even remember his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that she was living with this policeman before the 22d of November?

Mrs. RICHEY. That was my impression.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get that impression?

Mrs. RICHEY. Other girls talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know where they were living?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything to the effect that they were living near Jack?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she come to work at all after, Kathy Kay? Did she come to work at all to your recollection after Jack shot Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. I quit work the day before New Year’s, wasn’t it, because I wouldn’t work New Year’s night--yes, and from the time that Oswald was killed--the time I quit--she hadn’t worked again, but I had seen her one time, and I believe that she had come after her costumes, but I can’t even be real sure about that but it seems like that is why she was there and she was crying. I remember that. I don’t know why she was crying. Now she talked to some of the other waitresses but I never did find out why she was crying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the names of the other waitresses who talked with her?

Mrs. RICHEY. Was Dianna a waitress? Let me clarify myself. Dianna is a waitress; but she also was a showgirl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Dianna Hunter?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; he knows them better than I do. She also worked as a waitress and a showgirl too. Now this is the only one that I know anything about, but like I say only the waitresses. And I believe she talked to her. It seems like there was two, but I don’t remember the other one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see Kathy Kay crying or did you hear that she was?

Mrs. RICHEY. I sat down at the table that they were sitting at. It seems like there was three girls sitting there and I sat down and somebody came in the door and I got up. She had a Kleenex and a cup of coffee or tea or something in a cup and she was wiping tears away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Oswald was shot; how many days?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that; not even approximately. It couldn’t have been too long though. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first go to work after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember if I went to work Monday or Tuesday. The same night the club opened I went back to work, and I can’t remember now if that was the following Monday. It seems like it was, but it may have been Tuesday. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the following Monday you mean the very next day?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the day after.

Mrs. RICHEY. The same week that it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this boy friend that Kathy Kay was going with at all after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn continue to work at the club after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work there until you left in January?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; she quit before I quit. Now I don’t know when she quit, but she quit before I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why she quit?

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I don’t know why she quit; but that was the same day--something was in the newspapers about her and right now I don’t remember what it was, because there was quite a bit about her in the newspaper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the time she carried the gun into the courtroom?

Mrs. RICHEY. That might have been it. I don’t remember really, because there was one time that she was kidnaped or lost or ran away or something and they get confused in my mind and I am not real sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with her, Little Lynn that is, at all after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. If I did I don’t remember what was said or if I even did talk to her. I am not real sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything which would indicate what information she may have had that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I hadn’t even heard anything to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything about how she happened to make the telephone call to Ruby? Did you know that she made a telephone call to Ruby early Sunday morning?

Mrs. RICHEY. For rent?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. Isn’t that why she called him? I read that in the paper?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with her about it?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear any of her story about why she called him?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; that was the only reason I knew was that she needed some rent, and the way it went in the paper was that Jack went down to the telegraph office before he went to shoot Oswald to send her the money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a repetitive question. I ask you again do you recall on Friday or Saturday seeing anybody else from the Carousel Club besides Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. I didn’t see anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or talking. You didn’t see anybody and you didn’t talk to anybody besides----

Mrs. RICHEY. Not unless it was Bonny or Becky and I may have talked to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are Bonny or Becky?

Mrs. RICHEY. They are waitresses at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Bonny’s last name?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know. Becky’s is Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So at the time on the 22d there were four waitresses at the club, Dianna Hunter, Becky Jones, Bonny and yourself?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember if Dianna was dancing or if she was waitressing. I am not real sure about that even right now. She was doing one or the other. She was there. I just can’t remember which one it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now did the girls, while they were employed as dancers, also serve as waitresses to some extent?

Mrs. RICHEY. There was one girl that did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember her name. The first time I ever met her, she was an amateur dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack employing her as an amateur?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; but then sometimes she’d work as waitress and then one night one of the girls didn’t show up or something. I think this was on a Sunday night. This was before this happened I mean, and one of the girls didn’t show up and Jack asked her if she would dance, and I think she danced, and we had three shows, I mean you know, it was continuous, but it was three shows, and she danced. And then--you will have to pardon me, I have to recollect this in my mind.

Then it seems like she come back down after she got through dancing and was waitressing some more, and she did I think until her next number, and then Jack told her that I could handle the floor by myself. And I can’t remember if Dianna ever waitressed and danced at the same time. I don’t remember that. She might have. Just right now I can’t remember but that girl I happen to know because I was working by myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dancers mix with the customers in between their acts?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And am I correct in assuming that the purpose of this was to induce the customers to buy drinks and so forth?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the customers buy drinks for the girls as well as for themselves?

Mrs. RICHEY. The only thing you can buy in Texas, I don’t know if you know this, is setups and champagne. You can’t buy liquor across the bar. And so if they were drinking, well you know they had a bottle, and if not they had bought, you know, drinks for the girls, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember an incident that occurred with Jack’s stripper Jada? Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t give you details on it. I can tell you what I know about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you observed, not what you heard from other people but what you actually saw take place.

Mrs. RICHEY. What I saw Jada do?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. She was from New Orleans, and she kind of danced a little bit different from what I was used to seeing. I don’t know how you would explain it. A G-string, is that what you call it, she popped it, if I can make you understand what I am talking about, and I saw her do this one time, and Jack would cut the lights out on her and she’d get mad. Now this is what they had the fight about, because Jack would shut the lights out on her when she got too dirty for him. I mean he’d just shut the lights out. And so if I am not mistaken this is what they kept arguing about. Finally they went to court one night. But this was because that she had popped her G-string again. But I didn’t see it that night. Becky did, and she went down to court with him and they were gone quite awhile. But Jada won and he had to pay her and then she left. And that was Jada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack threaten her or hit her in any way?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know if he hit her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten her in any way?

Mrs. RICHEY. You have got to understand I’m working there while all this is going and I can’t recall him saying anything. I don’t even know if he hit her, because her dressing room was like this and then back down, and so it was, you know, you couldn’t see it from where we worked. And I know they were hollering. But now I can’t tell you what they were saying. I just know they were kind of raising their voices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen her snap this G-string on more than one occasion?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I just happened to see her this one time and that was the first night she was ever there that she did this, and then she was wearing less than what the other girls were wearing, and Jack made her get a different little dohickey more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now she started work there in the middle of the summer, didn’t she?

Mrs. RICHEY. She couldn’t have started in the middle of the summer. She didn’t come until after I was working there, and I know it was after I was working there but I don’t remember the date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You started in June?

Mrs. RICHEY. I started in June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jada was there by Labor Day?

Mrs. RICHEY. Labor Day is in September; isn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember. I remember she was a big draw card. I mean you know people really came to see her for awhile there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This incident with the G-string though, you saw it in the very first act?

Mrs. RICHEY. The very first time she was ever up there, I mean you know we’d heard so much about the big great Jada and we were really thinking boy this is going to be different; and it was. But here--Jack told her that she couldn’t do that, that she’d have to get more clothes on than what she had on. She couldn’t do that in Texas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she then put on more clothes?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember if she did the same night or not but I know finally she did get some little other things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have troubles with her though after the first night?

Mrs. RICHEY. They were generally fussing about a lot of things. I mean I don’t remember what they are, but that was the one thing that I know was the big thing as far as I know. But the rest of the things I don’t know. I mean he’d fuss at her because she’s late and it seems like she went to New Orleans one time for her son or something like this, and she didn’t get back, and he kind of got mad about this. But that is all I remember them fussing about is just those two incidents, and her being late.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything about Jack in the 2 or 3 months before he shot Oswald that would indicate that he was more or less disturbed about things in general than he had been on other occasions?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack’s behavior in the month, would you say that Jack’s behavior in the month or so before the President arrived was typical of his behavior at other times?

Mrs. RICHEY. I didn’t pay particular attention, but I mean to me it seems like that this wasn’t any change at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any arguments or differences of opinion that he had with any of his MC’s, masters of ceremony?

Mrs. RICHEY. Wally Weston.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know what it was. I just remember that Wally was a good MC. I mean he was the best that they had ever had, and something happened and I don’t know what it was, but Wally either quit or got fired, and I was there the night that he quit, but they were hollering, and when Jack hollers you don’t understand what he is saying because he has got a little bit of an accent and it kind of goes, you know, all together. To me he has an accent. To somebody else he might not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur?

Mrs. RICHEY. You ask dates and I can’t tell you dates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long before the President was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know. I don’t have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it as much as 3 months?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can tell you the MC’s we had after him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who were the MC’s?

Mrs. RICHEY. Sal Vincent. Remember the guy that sang----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Johnny Turner?

Mrs. RICHEY. I believe it was. Yes; he is the one that had it, what do you call it, dummies, ventriloquist. There was one that was there--now, that was after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bill DeMar come in? Do you remember Bill DeMar?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; he was there before. Yes; Bill DeMar, but he was there before and after. I mean he was there when this happened. Was Sal there before? Come to think of it----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The short fat man you are talking about?

Mrs. RICHEY. The one with the toupee, the stupid man. He wasn’t there before? Oh, I thought he was. He knows about as much as I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyhow----

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember the date though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Wally Weston leave as a result of this argument?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know if it was this argument. Maybe it was because he wouldn’t let Shari, his wife, come back. She was a dancer there. Shari Angel. I don’t know, it seems like that was why they were arguing, because he wouldn’t let Shari come back, but I am not even real sure about that, but I remember that was an argument between them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever express in your presence any opinions about Earl Norman?

Mrs. RICHEY. No. Earl worked there one week, but he never said anything to me about Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see anybody at the Carousel Club who in any way resembled Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t got any further questions at this point, so if there is anything that you would like to tell us, is there anything that I haven’t covered that you think we should know about?

Mrs. RICHEY. No, you have covered about all of it. I am afraid I haven’t been much help because I have tried to put this out of my mind. I want to try to forget it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you have been very helpful to us and I want to thank you for coming all this distance for a short period of time like this. I hope you enjoy your stay in Washington.

Mrs. RICHEY. We are leaving right away. Could you tell me if I will be called again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Yes; I can tell you the answer is that you won’t be called. I don’t expect that there will be any reason to call you. Excuse me; there is one thing I want to do before we finish here. I have marked Exhibit 1 for identification as previously indicated in the record, and I want to ask you if you have read it over and if you have any other changes to make other than the ones that you mentioned as you read it.

Mrs. RICHEY. Let me read it again. This says here that Janice was just a cocktail waitress, and she was just a waitress. “Several years,” I can’t remember, I haven’t known him that long.

I didn’t know him that long at that time. I may have said that then. I won’t say that I didn’t. And the noon; to me it seems like that it was later and it may have been or it may not have been. I am not really sure about that either. And that is about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, if that is satisfactory then I would like you to take this pencil and sign it down there by my name.

Mrs. RICHEY. Where is your name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t put my name on. Just sign it right where I have marked it.

Mrs. RICHEY. These things won’t matter then that is in here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, we have corrected it in the record and the record will reflect it.

Mrs. RICHEY. Do you want me to sign it Margie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any way you ordinarily sign it is all right.

Mrs. RICHEY. Margie.

Mr. RICHEY. How do you go about getting a copy of the record?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have some provision for giving it to you at whatever expense it is. I don’t know what it is, but you are entitled to a copy of it. We will send a copy of this out to you people in Cleveland, probably to the U.S. attorney’s office in Cleveland, and ask you to come in and read it.

Mrs. RICHEY. Again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read the transcript that we are making here.

Mrs. RICHEY. And then I sign it just like I have signed this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. If there are any mistakes.

Mrs. RICHEY. It won’t be this long so it will be a little bit clear in my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think you will have any trouble but every once in a while there is some mistake that creeps into the record. Not too many. So we would like you to come in and read it over and then sign it and return it to us. Then you can get a copy of that and arrangements can be made to purchase it through us, or the testimony is going to be printed and memorialized and there will be many thousands of copies of this made.

Mrs. RICHEY. This will be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This will be sent all around the country. All the libraries in the major cities will certainly have them, but if you want a personal copy, why we can have one made up.

Mr. RICHEY. The town I come from the people aren’t very broadminded.

Mrs. RICHEY. There is not very many Richeys around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There will be volumes and volumes of this testimony. I might ask your husband just one question. You are here and you are not under oath and you aren’t obliged to answer it, but since you are here I will ask you if there is anything that you would like to contribute as a result of having heard this deposition?

Mr. RICHEY. As you could gather, I knew Jack Ruby myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RICHEY. I spoke with him the night before I left for home, which is the night before President Kennedy was killed, and he seemed normal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. RICHEY. At the club. I was sitting there at the club waiting for Margie to finish work. He come up, sat alongside me, asked what I thought of the job. And to me of course in my own opinion he was always off somewhere in his mind. He asked me a question but he didn’t listen to my answer. He was thinking of something else completely, which is just talking. This is the impression the man gave me in the first place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you at the club Thursday night?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, I worked at a liquor store in Dallas.

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. RICHEY. I got out of the Army that Thursday and I spent that whole evening----

Mrs. RICHEY. No, Wednesday, the 20th, and you left Thursday morning so you didn’t see Jack.

Mr. RICHEY. Wednesday night I spent the night at the club. This is the night that I talked to Jack Ruby. That is right; I am sorry. And the President was shot the following day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You spent Wednesday night at the club. About how long were you there?

Mr. RICHEY. Most of the whole night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with Jack on that occasion?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, just a couple minutes. It wasn’t very busy if I can remember, and he come up and sat alongside of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about the fact that the President was coming to town?

Mr. RICHEY. No. I was aware myself that the President was coming, but I didn’t know he was coming to Dallas because they were expecting him at Fort Hood, Tex. They kind of had a feeling he might stop in. They were getting ready for this big inspection, but I didn’t know he was coming to Dallas. This was a surprise to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you can think of?

Mr. RICHEY. No, I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you both again, and I hope you have a pleasant trip back.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES THOMAS AYCOX

The testimony of James Thomas Aycox was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the general counsel’s staff on the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit about the procedure that we are going to follow here and what we are trying to do, and then I will administer the oath to you.

The Commission, as you may or may not know, was set up pursuant to an Executive order which was issued by President Johnson in November of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

Under this joint resolution, the Commission has been given authority to promulgate various rules and regulations. Under those rules and regulations I have been designated to take your testimony here today.

The Commission was directed by President Johnson to inquire into and to evaluate and report back to President Johnson about all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Oswald.

In calling you here today, we are particularly interested in finding out what you know about Jack Ruby and, if anything, about the murder of Lee Oswald, and also if you have any information in other areas, we would like to get that, too. Let me ask you a preliminary question.

Mr. AYCOX. Is it all right if I smoke?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mr. AYCOX. Yes. Here is the letter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive that?

Mr. AYCOX. Sunday morning. See, I used to live at this address, but I moved to the 2800 block, just a half block, and I still go up there sometimes to get my mail. So the lady accepted it and brought it to my house Sunday morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask is, you are entitled to receive notice of an appearance 3 days before you actually are supposed to arrive here, but I see that you have had the 3 days’ notice; so we are in good shape there.

Before I administer the oath, do you have any questions that you want to ask me about the proceedings that will take place in the next half hour.

Mr. AYCOX. No, not at the present, I don’t. I will wait and if there is anything I want to ask, I will stop you and ask you later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Feel free to. If you will raise your right hand, I would like to administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. AYCOX. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the reporter here your full name.

Mr. AYCOX. James Thomas Aycox.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your address?

Mr. AYCOX. 2819 Hibernia.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. AYCOX. I know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, I went out to his club and played. The first night we went out there to play, his sister was running the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. Vegas Club, and she had to have an operation the first night I played with another band. We just played one night.

The next night, about a week later, we got a steady job there, and she had to have an operation, and she told us he would be taking over and handling both clubs until she got out of the hospital, and for us to follow his orders, and that is how I met him.

One night he came out before she went to the hospital, and she introduced me to him, and then he came out and emceed the show.

We had a show on Friday and Saturday nights at the Vegas Club and he come out and emceed the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of shows did he have at the Vegas Club on Friday and Saturdays?

Mr. AYCOX. Just a rock-and-roll. Different artists come from other clubs, recording artists around town come out and did three or four numbers, tap dance and sing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any stripteasers at the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work at the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. Let me see, it was 2 or 3 weeks before this came up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you quit working at the Vegas?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, it was in the wintertime. It was kind of cold. I don’t recall the date, but I think it was in November, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. AYCOX. It was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, it was about, maybe 3 or 4 days, or a week, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to quit?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, things weren’t going right out there. I couldn’t get along with the band. He had told me to do one thing, and the guy that was playing there before I was, but we were playing mechanical all night. He would never say anything to the artists and tell them we will be here again and what time we would open. Mr. Ruby came out on Sunday and would drill us, and he wouldn’t want us to play mechanical all night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by mechanical?

Mr. AYCOX. That is playing and not singing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted you to put on a little performance?

Mr. AYCOX. That’s right, and tell some kind of jokes, plug for the club. So this guy was the pianoplayer with the band before I started, and when the other band left, he stayed and taken over the band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you replace the Joe Johnson band?

Mr. AYCOX. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the band that you were in?

Mr. AYCOX. I don’t really know what the name of this band was. I played with Leonard Wood. He was the band leader.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you play in the band called the Players?

Mr. AYCOX. That is the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Leonard Wood then replaced Joe Johnson?

Mr. AYCOX. But he was working with Joe first. Then after Joe left, he stayed to take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Leonard the pianoplayer?

Mr. AYCOX. Leonard is the pianoplayer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you play?

Mr. AYCOX. I played drums.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other pieces were in the band?

Mr. AYCOX. We had a bass player and a saxophone and guitar. Four other pieces besides the piano. Five all together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had any of your four people, not including Leonard Wood, had you four people played together before?

Mr. AYCOX. Not exactly. I played, sat in some jobs, but I never worked steady. Nobody but the guitar player.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group that Leonard Wood arranged?

Mr. AYCOX. It was a group that he organized.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people belong to a union or have any agent or anything like that?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, I belonged to the union myself, and I guess some of the other fellows belonged to the union, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have agents?

Mr. AYCOX. No; not for this particular job. We have agents, but this particular job, I just got it accidentally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Leonard Wood stay on with the band?

Mr. AYCOX. After I left?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he there all the time you were there?

Mr. AYCOX. He was there all the time; but he started replacing Leonard and got another pianoplayer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack tried to replace Leonard?

Mr. AYCOX. Leonard didn’t want to follow out the orders, and he told him, “You either do like I say or you have to leave.” So Leonard said he spent his time running around to get the fellows together and picking up people to get there to rehearse, but he still didn’t want to do what Ruby said, so Leonard stayed on, and we got to where we couldn’t get along, so on a Wednesday night, I believe I told him I decided to quit and go with another band, because I did what Mr. Ruby said, but still I wasn’t pleasing Leonard, so I didn’t call him or tell him nothing.

I didn’t get a chance to see him because every time I called him at the club the line was busy. And this Wednesday night I decided to leave, so they got another drummer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left did Jack start to try to replace Leonard Wood?

Mr. AYCOX. He just told me that, once or twice. One night after we finished playing, he would come from the other club over here and see how things were, and then I guess one of the waitresses, she must have told him that he asked me to sing three or four numbers and Leonard didn’t want me to sing those numbers. Leonard wanted to be the whole show and he didn’t have what it takes to compete with everybody else on the show, so he just got cross, and he was the band leader. I had a chance to take over the band out at the club out there, but he didn’t want to follow out the orders, so I decided to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Eva Grant work at the club at all during the last week that you were there?

Mr. AYCOX. She hadn’t gotten out of the hospital yet, I don’t think, because we sent her a card out to the hospital. She hadn’t came out of the hospital yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work there at all when you were employed there?

Mr. AYCOX. She worked there about a week after I started playing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first week that you were there, she was at the club?

Mr. AYCOX. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the next week, you didn’t see her?

Mr. AYCOX. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of clientele did they have at the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. What kind of what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Patrons.

Mr. AYCOX. Well, they were pretty nice; you know. They came out some nights. Quite naturally on Friday and Saturday there would be more people than through the week. Some nights through the week we had a pretty nice crowd.

But here is the point. After Joe left, Leonard had been playing with Joe--Joe had a style of his own, so Leonard wanted to play behind Joe’s style. So Mr. Ruby tried to point out to Leonard to pick up a style of his own, because Joe was gone and he got another job, and to try to pick up a style and quit trying to sell Joe, because he would be just helping Joe.

Joe left, and then people come out, and Leonard kept trying to play Joe’s pattern, but we didn’t have the band, because we didn’t know how Joe played and everybody had a different style, and Leonard kept wanting to play behind Joe, because he had been working with Joe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Joe happen to quit?

Mr. AYCOX. I don’t know why he quit or nothing like that, but I just heard he was going to quit, and maybe he got a job paying more money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many Sundays during the time you were with Ruby did Mr. Ruby come out to the club and give you instructions?

Mr. AYCOX. I think about 3. I don’t think I stayed there over 3 weeks, maybe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come out every Sunday?

Mr. AYCOX. He come out every Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you rehearse on Sundays?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, suppose to rehearse from about 1 o’clock to 3. Sometimes from 1:30 to 2:30, something like that. Sometimes we rehearsed to 3.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come out and stay the entire time?

Mr. AYCOX. Yes; he came out. Sometimes he might be there a little earlier than the band, or maybe the band might get there a little early, but he would be out there to open up, and then we were rehearsing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification as James Aycox Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This is a document that consists of two pages, and it purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent Hughes, who had this interview with you on December 14, 1963. Take your time and read it over. I want to know whether that is an accurate report of what you told him on December 14.

Mr. AYCOX (reading report). This was not the fellow. There was another fellow here that was a member of the band. There were five of us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the fifth fellow?

Mr. AYCOX. Milton Thomas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Brother Bear?

Mr. AYCOX. This is right [returning document].

Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is all right, then if you would sign it on the first page where I have marked.

Mr. AYCOX. Right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right; yes.

Mr. AYCOX. This is where you want me to sign?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can sign it near the top where I put the marks on the page.

Mr. AYCOX (signing). Both pages?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you initial the second page?

Mr. AYCOX. Initial this one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; just put your initials there.

(Mr. Aycox initials.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in this morning.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS STEWART PALMER

The testimony of Thomas Stewart Palmer, was taken at 10:25 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission and what we expect to do here today before I administer the oath and ask you to testify. The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order issued by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. Under these two official acts, the Commission has been directed to inquire into, evaluate, and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today, Mr. Palmer, particularly because you have had some past dealings with Jack Ruby, and we are hopeful that you can shed some light on the kind of person that Jack Ruby was.

Now, under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been designated to take your deposition here today. Before we ask anybody to be sworn, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to a 3-day written notice of your presence here, and I will ask you first of all if you have received a letter from the Commission 3 days before?

Mr. PALMER. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the testimony that is about to be taken?

Mr. PALMER. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PALMER. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. PALMER. Thomas Stewart Palmer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you now live?

Mr. PALMER. 2728 West Davis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you employed?

Mr. PALMER. I am self-employed, an entertainer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of entertaining do you do?

Mr. PALMER. Magician and comedian.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Dallas area?

Mr. PALMER. Primarily.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed in any particular place?

Mr. PALMER. Not at the present time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you formerly an official of the AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. I was branch manager.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. PALMER. Here in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you branch manager for AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. About a year and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your employment begin and when did it end?

Mr. PALMER. It ended in February of this year and began--when would it be, a year and a half prior to that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sometime in 1963?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were branch manager of AGVA, did you have occasion to have some dealings with Jack Ruby?

Mr. PALMER. Frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ruby before you became branch manager?

Mr. PALMER. Slightly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to know him?

Mr. PALMER. Well, he had employed me as a fill-in entertainer on, I believe, about two occasions. Other than that, I had never met him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what clubs did you work for him?

Mr. PALMER. At the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were working for him, what was your relationship with him as an employee, how did you find him as an employer?

Mr. PALMER. No different than most. Perhaps he felt he was doing a lot for the entertainers, but this is not uncommon. Most entrepreneurs feel they are impresarios or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you became branch manager of AGVA, you had occasion, I take it, to deal with him on a number of times?

Mr. PALMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us, try to reconstruct chronologically how your relationship with him as an AGVA representative proceeded.

Mr. PALMER. Well, it was quite amicable in all instances. The single element that certainly perturbed me most, from the standpoint of being a branch manager of AGVA, was that Jack was reluctant and hesitant to meet all of the obligations of a union house as that is, and it was constantly necessary for me to visit him and prod him.

With the advent of the McClellan investigation, AGVA became quite sensitive to certain practices that Jack and other clubs freely subscribed to, and in the latter months of our association, I had been collecting data that indicated Jack was continuing to violate certain rules of AGVA that could have been awkward for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the rules that you felt he was violating?

Mr. PALMER. Well, AGVA has no jurisdiction over what is called a B-girl or a girl who is primarily in a club to promote consumption of liquor and services. However, they do not want their members, AGVA members to engage in this practice. Jack very frequently made it clear to our members whom he engaged that it was expected of them, and those who were not in great demand found they could stay at his club for a long time if they were to sit down and have a convivial drink with a customer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go about collecting this information on it?

Mr. PALMER. Jack was impulsive and he would make an instant enemy as quickly as he would win him back as a friend, and it was not difficult to find a girl who had had a slight altercation with him who would sign an affidavit indicating that Jack had demanded that she associate with the customers in the capacity of a B-drinker only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does AGVA have such affidavits, or did they have such affidavits?

Mr. PALMER. They do not at the present time. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those with you?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t have them with me. I can get them for you within the hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, I would appreciate that very much. Do you remember right now some of the names of the people who swore out affidavits against him?

Mr. PALMER. I collected only three, because that was sufficient proof. However, in conversation with all of them, they indicated that this was the truth, but they were hesitant to put it in writing. Little Lynn, I believe, was one of the girls. I don’t know her full name. I would have to look it up in the AGVA files. There was an exotic girl from New Orleans.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?

Mr. PALMER. Jada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other rules that Jack was violating?

Mr. PALMER. Not knowingly. He was hesitant in his payment of welfare to AGVA for his personnel. He was not the only one. This is a common shortcoming of most club owners.

His affiliation with the Vegas Club, was an affiliation he should not have been affiliated with, since the club was theoretically in his sister’s name, and I had been given to believe that his operation here was separate. It could be a point of contention with AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why shouldn’t he have been associated with the Vegas Club, under your rules?

Mr. PALMER. Well, our rules are that an owner who cannot subscribe but only partially to our union, if his business is all entertainment business, then he must have been either entirely AGVA, or not at all. I am quite sure this was why the Vegas was presented as being in his sister’s name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From your experience with Jack, were you able to form any impression of the extent of employee turnover that he had?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did his turnover compare to that of other employers in the business?

Mr. PALMER. Well, it was great, the rate of turnover, until he would eventually hire an entertainer who was either capable of standing the pace that he set in his club, or until he hired someone who wanted to settle down in Dallas and was willing to work for a little less and perhaps a little more frequently per night.

Another of Jack’s possible infringements on AGVA rules and regulations, and it was never clarified in AGVA, was his continuous show policy. This made his finding a new master of ceremonies, whenever it was necessary, virtually impossible, because there are few emcees who can go on and on all evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did AGVA have a policy against continuous shows?

Mr. PALMER. Not at the outset. There was confusion in this respect between the New York office and the west coast office. I remember Mazzie’s office and Jackie Bright’s office--Bright was ousted and Bobby Faye made several directives that were countermanded by the west coast, and the union became rather decentralized in its authority.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But eventually did somebody who had jurisdiction over Dallas issue a rule of some sort that there should be no continuous shows?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. PALMER. I issued it at the direction of Bobby Faye of New York City, who was the executive administrator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after the President was assassinated?

Mr. PALMER. Before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before?

Mr. PALMER. Probably about 6 months before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Ruby’s response to that rule?

Mr. PALMER. Jack liked to pretend and let me know he was pretending to comply fully. Agreeably, I should say. His mode of compliance again was only a halfhearted thing, and he did take breaks which then split the show into four shows a night. But I informed him that the breaks weren’t adequate; they should be longer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the breaks?

Mr. PALMER. They were supposed to be 40 minutes. He was taking a 20- to 30-minute break. I had to rely almost entirely on the emcees to clock this, other than sit in the club myself. When I sat in the club myself, they occurred. When I didn’t, I knew they weren’t occurring, so I had to rely on the emcees. And the emcees relied on Jack Ruby for employment, and often were not too stringent in clocking the breaks. So this, with the affidavits of B-drinking could be considered as creating a little pressure on Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned before that some of the employees couldn’t take the pace that Jack set. What did you have in mind when you referred to pace?

Mr. PALMER. I meant strictly from a legal standpoint. The continuous show policy; the idea of being on the premises at all times; plus Jack’s personality was not constantly one way or the other. It was a highly fluctuating thing and often led to misunderstandings.

Many masters of ceremony quit because they felt Jack was directing from the floor, which he has a right to do, but not to the embarrassment of an entertainer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would he direct, from the floor?

Mr. PALMER. He would indicate on occasion that a dancer midway through her dance should cut it short, or the master of ceremonies should cut a specific routine of his short, often while he was doing the routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever told, or did you ever observe any kind of performances that Jack Ruby didn’t approve of?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s focus strictly on the kind of joke that would be told in the club. Were there any kind of jokes you learned he didn’t permit to be told?

Mr. PALMER. He wouldn’t permit racial or religious jokes of obvious dirty nature. It was not uncommon for one master of ceremonies to tell several of his routine in colored dialect, Negro dialect, or Jewish dialect, but this was screened carefully, and he was very careful to see that it was not--it could have been risque, but not filthy. In other words, he ran a very close check on certain types of profanity. On the other hand, he was very free in permitting a master of ceremonies his choice of material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to learn about this?

Mr. PALMER. Well, now, not myself first hand. It was by Earl Norman who complained to me one day that he had been telling this joke in Jack’s establishment for several weeks, and apparently Jack had not heard it, and asked him to delete it from his routine. Of course, this was a blow to Earl in two ways. First of all, being told what material to choose, and secondly, that he hadn’t been heard for 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what the joke was?

Mr. PALMER. I cannot. I have been trying to think what it was. It was an innocuous thing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a religious joke or a racial joke? Or was it a sexual joke?

Mr. PALMER. I cannot honestly recall. It was an unimportant thing at the time to me. I talked to Jack about his censoring Earl in this particular instance, but as I recall, the joke wasn’t mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever or did anybody ever tell you prior to the time that President Kennedy was assassinated that Jack didn’t permit them to tell jokes about the Kennedy family?

Mr. PALMER. On the contrary, I heard jokes about the Kennedy family and most other political figures in his establishment by Wally Weston. I don’t know whether--it was not a large part of his routine, but I believe I did hear him use them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of his employees ever complain to you about Jack having physically abused them?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which employees, or which employee?

Mr. PALMER. Well, it was not what would constitute a complaint against the employer, so I couldn’t follow it up from an AGVA or union standpoint. But I know that he did strike Earl Norman on occasion and call him a drunk and was detrimental to his career by calling other establishments where Earl was employed, and indicating that he was an inebriate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Earl tell you this?

Mr. PALMER. Earl told me this, and our booking agent, Pappy Dolson, indicated that he was having difficulty booking Earl because of things that were being said, and he didn’t say that Jack had said them. Later Jack admitted to me that he was the one that had said these things, and he said he was sorry for them. And I believe at later date he did take Earl back to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this instance sometime before the President came to Dallas?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. I think he struck Jada on occasion, or as she put it, “shoved me around.”

Several of the other girls had been manhandled by Jack for various reasons. I am not certain what they all are. Jack has a tendency to be frugal to a point of not always being honest on occasion. The girls would draw money in advance, and sometimes his bookkeeping was too much in his favor for a very small amount. On the other hand, he was quick to give them money if they needed it for anything. To buy a radio, he would give them $40, but come payday, it might be $42 he thought he gave, and it would take moments of understanding before he coughed up the other $2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the circumstances under which Jada quit working for Jack?

Mr. PALMER. Partially.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you about them, or did Jack?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; as a matter of fact, she filed a complaint with me and he filed a complaint with me. Evidently, I believe the police were called in by an agent to get it straightened out. Jack maintained, after she had been there quite some time, that her act which originally was not suitable for Dallas--however, it did pass the vice squad critic--or claimed that she had reverted back to a New Orleans type of dancing, which included front bumps and a couple of other things they don’t like here--and was more suggestive than it should be.

Jack rushed to the light pillar and turned the lights out on her. This was after he had thought that her contract was going to expire. However, he failed to negotiate renewal of her contract subsequently. I indicated to him her contract would have to run, despite his failure, which I am sure was on purpose, to endorse renewal--would have to run until the completion of the week. He had anticipated getting some new talent in which would double him up on his budget, and he wanted Jada out of there right away. I think this is what prompted his criticism of her dance that evening. I had been in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Had he mentioned to you that he wanted to get rid of Jada before he turned the lights out on her?

Mr. PALMER. He came into my office about a day and a half prior to that to ask my thinking on the contract, and the contract that I had on file in the office indicated that he was not obligated to keep her. However, the contract that she had that had been signed on one occasion indicated that it was to continue on past this date. He had not notified my office of the renewal. This was not uncommon in most offices. Renewals are by mutual consent, and very frequently the only signed copy is the entertainer’s. Jada knew the rules, and she should have had them signed. She did on one occasion.

However, being the artist’s representative primarily, termination had to comply with our AGVA rules which assured her of at least the end of the week, and if she were agreeable, that is fine. If she weren’t, she should have held it for another week. So with this in mind, I told this to Jack: “I will see what can be done about getting you off the hook at the end of the week.” And he said, “Great”. Then I discussed with Jada and she was quite adamant. She was going to complete her engagement. And there was a little hard feeling because she said nobody is going to shove me around. Then later, 2 days later or so, approximately, the incident of the light.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did Jack want to replace her with another act?

Mr. PALMER. First of all, her salary was unusual for his establishment. It was much higher than he was accustomed to paying. I was surprised that he kept her as long as he had. With the advent of the affidavit, I realized that her value to him was other than just simply as an entertainer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she file the affidavit against him before he came in and told you he wanted to fire her?

Mr. PALMER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come to AGVA with any problems about his competitors?

Mr. PALMER. Frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of complaints did he have about his competitors?

Mr. PALMER. That they were scheming to put him out of business, and that they were practicing unfair tactics both from a civil standpoint as well as union standpoint.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be specific about the scheming that they did, that he complained they did?

Mr. PALMER. Well, he claimed that the amateur night, which Mr. Barney Weinstein originated, I think, many years ago, in Dallas, was taken up by his brother Abe at the Colony, not because Abe needed it, but because it blocked him out of using that same night as an amateur night for his own draw, Jack Ruby’s, and this was a consolidated effort between the two brothers to put him out of business, the Carousel. He was constantly critical of their contribution to the AGVA welfare, while he himself was decidedly delinquent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he think they were more delinquent than he was?

Mr. PALMER. No; he just thought they were delinquent, and he was bringing that to my attention while trying to keep his own delinquency out of the topic of conversation. Frequently people he had let go at his club might go to work for Barney. I don’t believe Abe would ever use them. I think he did on one or two occasions, but Jack was then always convinced that these people were, to use his terminology, bad-mouthing him or talking unfairly about him behind his back. Actually, his club was rated by AGVA at a lesser rate than the other two, which permitted him to employ exotics and masters of ceremonies and specialty acts at a lower rate, and I often pointed this out to him. He then complained it should be even lower but it could not possibly be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was he permitted to pay them at a lesser rate?

Mr. PALMER. Clubs are rated deluxe, A, B, C, and D and his was far from being deluxe, which allowed about a $10 a week less minimum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his rating was?

Mr. PALMER. I think it was a B house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The rating is deluxe, and below that is A and B?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. The other two houses, I believe the Theatre Lounge is an A and the Colony Club is a B, but it never, he never practiced minimum rate.

See, we only guaranteed the minimum rate. The artist could negotiate for anything above that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What factor did you take into account in determining what rate?

Mr. PALMER. These houses had already been rated prior to my coming into office here, and I didn’t feel that there was any necessity of reevaluating them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t mean you in particular, but what are the standards of giving new ratings in AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. There is controversy. I rate them primarily on seating capacity, cover charge, and type of show budget. It has not been delineated clearly in any of the offices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby complain to you about the amateur nights that the Weinsteins were running?

Mr. PALMER. Continuously. He stated that he didn’t like to run them himself, but he had to in order to meet the competition. The other two brothers, the same thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack ask you to do?

Mr. PALMER. He was constantly trying to have them disallowed by AGVA. According to the first directive I received in office, they were to be immediately discontinued.

However, I believe it was Abe Weinstein’s conversation, either in person or by phone--I have forgotten which--I had both with Irving Mazzie, that they were allowed to continue until clarification of the amateur shows could be had. I was instructed to allow them to continue. It was not indicated that it should be just simply for the Weinsteins, but also for Jack Ruby, and any other club that might be in my territory. I believe there was a club in Oklahoma that was also contemplating it. At that time there became an upset in our executive offices, and it was not clear to the people taking over whether they should adhere to the previous policies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this first order come out that there was to be no amateur nights?

Mr. PALMER. In October, I believe it was, originally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of 1963 or 1962?

Mr. PALMER. 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1962?

Mr. PALMER. I believe that is when I first received the letter indicating it was to all club owners.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby discontinue amateur night at any time, to your knowledge?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; prior to my, well, unpleasantness, he began a series of dishes, giving away dishes Thursday and hi-fi’s and everything else, and had discontinued his amateur nights, and made quite a thing that he was complying wholeheartedly. But it took him almost 4 or 5 months to get around to complying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he still complying in November of 1963?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; I believe, to the best of my knowledge, he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in November of 1963 that Jack was attempting to persuade AGVA to terminate the amateur shows at the Weinstein club?

Mr. PALMER. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about what he did?

Mr. PALMER. He called Irving Mazzie on several occasions, and without my receiving any confirmation either from Irving or from New York as to what these conversations embodied, he instructed me that he was right, Jack Ruby, and I agreed. However, I had a request to have the other clubs shut down because of their noncompliance disregarded by New York. So it became my policy, and probably the reason for my termination with AGVA was that one or the other of the officers either the west coast or the east coast, would have to come in and straighten this out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were getting conflicting orders, I take it?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; I was. My New York office and my regional office were giving me conflicting orders.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Irving Mazzie, I remember, was telling you to shut them down; is that right?

Mr. PALMER. He did not at first. The New York office told me to shut them down, and Irving Mazzie said give them time. And there was this banter back and forth on the west coast. They had, I think, the Pink Pussy Cat and the Body Shop, were continuing their amateur nights and Irving said to permit the clubs here to continue until they ceased on the west coast. Eventually they ceased on the west coast, but there was still this complete uncertainty, in my mind, about here, because he continued to permit me to permit them to have their amateur nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any information that the Weinsteins were talking to Mr. Mazzie or Mr. Faye?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while Jack Ruby was trying to persuade AGVA to shut the Weinsteins down as far as amateur night was concerned, the Weinsteins were talking to other people?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. As a matter of fact, perhaps it is my suggestion in fact, I forwarded a letter from Barney Weinstein to, I believe it was, Bobby Faye at that time. Yes, it was--concerning his part in the establishment of the amateur nights and that it was definitely a necessary thing for him to remain in business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that on or about the 13th of November of 1963 after Ruby had contacted Bobby Faye, you sent out a letter to people in your district advising them that amateur nights were not permitted?

Mr. PALMER. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that letter was sent out, what did the Weinsteins do?

Mr. PALMER. I think Abe Weinstein suspended the thing, the amateur nights for 2 weeks. I am not sure. I know that Jack was subscribing wholeheartedly to the memo. And Barney indicated that he was going to relinquish his affiliation with AGVA.

It became necessary then for me to indicate to our membership that while it was legal for them to accept employment wherever they wished, if it were in violation of our rules as a union, we were obligated to exercise a fine on them. And this, I believe, right up to the minute of the show, Barney indicated an indifference. Then he realized that this would do two things.

First of all, put several of his people he liked out of business, or in jeopardy, let us say, to the amount of $100, I believe, per person. He decided to withdraw himself that evening and try to negotiate again with New York. And again, there was much confusion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever accuse you of showing favoritism?

Mr. PALMER. Frequently. On the other hand, I had to point out to him that I exercised extreme leniency in his welfare, to which he agreed, and was placated with this sort of thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, were there other people in the business who were also trying to get these amateur nights stopped?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. In fact, Irving Mazzie on the west coast, I believe, came into civil court with the, I think it was, Body Shop, and received several threats on his life.

The same thing occurred, I believe, in the State of Washington in Seattle. There were three areas that seemed to subscribe more strongly than the others to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby the only nightclub operator who was trying to get the amateur nights stopped, or were there others?

Mr. PALMER. Those who were not subscribing to it were not the least bit interested, in my area.

On the west coast, yes, there were other nightclub owners who were interested in having it stopped. I think this was essentially the time of the entire movement, but Jack was the only nightclub operator who was virtually trying to stop it.

Abe wanted, in his own words, to cease, but felt from a business standpoint that he had to continue. He said it was a burden. I can see where it would be to your regular show.

The Colony Club was situated so that it did not require this gimmick at anytime really to pep up business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about some of Ruby’s employees in particular. Was Tammi True an AGVA member?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn?

Mr. PALMER. Not exactly. She had placed a down payment, and I don’t believe she ever finished payment.

However, AGVA permits, as long as you are making a conscientious effort to pay your initiation dues, a 60-day period. During that 60 days, they can work on a temporary card type basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why Kathy Kay did not return to work for Jack Ruby’s club after Jack was arrested?

Mr. PALMER. No. I know only that she said she was afraid to and wanted to get out of town. I understood that she was leaving town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she afraid about?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. She was terribly upset, of course, about the assassination, as everyone was, and she did not confide in me as to the reason for this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But she did talk to you about it?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she first come in and talk to you about it?

Mr. PALMER. It was a Tuesday after the murder.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she come to your office?

Mr. PALMER. I think she called. I remember seeing her in person but I can’t recall whether it was in the office or in the coffee shop downstairs. No, it was in the office, because she had been into the office of Pappy Dolson’s booking agent on the same floor with AGVA in the Interurban Building, and I believe, again I am not sure, I know it was in the Interurban Building or the immediate surroundings and she was inquiring as to her pay status because of this.

And of course, this being a new thing, I wanted to check it out. Mr. Paul, I was not aware, would take over the club at that time. So only after talking to him did I discover that yes, her contract would continue to be valid and there would be a club operating, and I advised her of this.

She said, “I don’t care, I just want to get out of town. I don’t like it.”

This particular club clientele may not have been as selective as some of the other clubs in town, and there could have been many reasons. I know from her own verbal statements, that she had been requested to be convivial, which is above and beyond the requirements of an entertainer. However, she would not sign an affidavit to that effect, and frequently associations were continued independent of the club that would make her continuing there awkward to her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether at that time she had a relationship of some sort with a Dallas police officer?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she mention that as any reason for not wanting to continue to work?

Mr. PALMER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that that was the reason?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. No, I haven’t. I gave it no importance. I assigned no importance to it at all at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any suggestions as to what might have motivated her to leave so abruptly? Has anything come to your attention that might suggest consideration?

Mr. PALMER. She had frequently wanted to leave prior to that--she stated this to me--and she couldn’t. As a matter of fact, at one time she had discontinued exotic dancing entirely for a period of a month or so, and evidently came back to work at Jack Ruby’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why had she wanted to leave?

Mr. PALMER. She said she had a child and she wanted to get into some other business at that time. This was quite sometime prior to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As long as 6 months or a year before?

Mr. PALMER. Six months at least. She had indicated that out of respect for her association with a member of the Dallas police force, that she would probably cease dancing, or that she wanted to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, when she talked with you--I want to see if I understand this correctly--when she talked with you 6 months or more before Oswald was shot, she indicated that because at that time she had a relationship with this Dallas police officer, she thought it would be best that she get out of the business?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You smile. Why do you smile and say yes? Is there anything more?

Mr. PALMER. No more than I gained the impression that this was not a business that she felt would be compatible with his position, and for no reason other than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it known to members of the police department that she was dating this fellow, living with this fellow even before the President was shot?

Mr. PALMER. It was of such common knowledge to all entertainers, and his presence in the club with her and after in places where entertainers usually went at 1 or 2 o’clock to have breakfast, that I doubt that their association could have escaped the attention of some of the other members of the force.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information about how friendly Jack Ruby was with the police officer that she was dating?

Mr. PALMER. Quite friendly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how you know that?

Mr. PALMER. Well, I saw no outward signs of any friendship other than that of an acquaintance between the two, but he did introduce me to him, and on occasion, the three of us were at a table briefly when I would drop in late just prior to closing time.

His presence was honored, as mine was, without cover charge. And frequently Jack would buy us a beer or coke or whatever we were having.

But I didn’t feel that there was any animosity. Or let me say, I was not aware that there was or had been or possibly would be any animosity. Knowing Jack, I feel that he was perhaps nurturing this acquaintanceship to strengthen any position that a person in his business might sooner or later need.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that this police officer might have helped Jack Ruby get into the basement of the police department on Sunday?

Mr. PALMER. No. As a matter of fact, this is the first time that I have even thought of that. I would not know. I could give you no idea at all on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn have any occasion to talk to you about her relationship with Jack Ruby after Oswald was shot?

Mr. PALMER. No. As a matter of fact, I didn’t see Little Lynn after that. Actually, I knew she was employed sporadically there because of what I assume was slightly neurotic reasons. I didn’t see her for a period of maybe a week before that happened in the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some reason to think that she was a mentally disturbed person?

Mr. PALMER. I was certain of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us why it is you feel that way, and what do you think her problem was?

I don’t want you to be a psychiatrist, but in lay terms, what was the difficulty?

Mr. PALMER. Well, she was associated with a young gentleman more nearly her age who was eager to have her accumulate wealth. What he did to achieve this, I don’t know. I can only assume.

I believe she thought herself pregnant, or was. I had no proof whether she was or not. I did see her have convulsions and spasms that I had seen before and realized that this was more a nervous condition that often precedes pregnancy, but this seemed to be to me, again, as I say, a little more of an emotional thing rather than a physiological thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have any indication that she was taking narcotics?

Mr. PALMER. I had none. I have none at the present time. By narcotics, I don’t know what you mean.

Some of the entertainers, the girls have weight problems and often they are on a, I don’t know what the pill is, it is a black thing that doctors prescribe. I have seen several eating them, that I know of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are habit forming?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. I believe they are. I don’t know what they are. A friend of mine in a different business is the one that described them to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Little Lynn’s boy friend or husband or whatever he is attempting to do for her?

Mr. PALMER. I had that feeling. I had no proof of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else that you think he was attempting to do?

Mr. PALMER. Not that I am aware of, no. I thought that was what it was, plus having her in a club where he could call as her manager and probably circulate and pander for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to know why Tammi True quit working for Jack Ruby shortly before the President was assassinated?

Mr. PALMER. She quit several times before. Again, Tammi was quite critical of Jack’s bookkeeping and frequently overstepped her boundaries as an employee because of her association with Mr. Paul, I believe, at that time. She was living with him off and on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to visit any of the nightclubs on November 22 or November 23?

Mr. PALMER. Could you give me the days of the week?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this would be the Friday night after the President was assassinated, and the Saturday night.

Mr. PALMER. I would have to look at the records at AGVA. I believe I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were in Abe’s Colony Club or the Theatre Lounge on one of those nights?

Mr. PALMER. I probably was. I usually made those clubs as I came downtown. I don’t recall specifically though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, do you have any specific recollection as to whether those clubs were open on any one of those nights?

Mr. PALMER. Let’s see, President was assassinated on what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday.

Mr. PALMER. Friday. All the clubs were closed on Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Saturday?

Mr. PALMER. There was some--actually, the two clubs, Colony Club and the Theatre Lounge closed, and I think there was some doubt as to whether Ruby’s would close, and I had to determine that. I believe Ruby was closed until the following Monday. I am not certain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of being in the Colony Club or Theatre Lounge on Saturday night?

Mr. PALMER. No, I don’t; I am sorry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any more questions. Is there anything that you can think of that the Commission ought to know either about Ruby or about the murder of Oswald, or about the assassination of the President, that you might want to offer independently of any questions that I have asked you?

Mr. PALMER. I suppose my other statements are available to you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. It is customary that we give you these to look at to sign, but I am afraid that it didn’t get included in the group of things that I brought with me from Washington, so I don’t have them to hand to you. I have one short statement that you made on November 26, but it has simply to do with Buddy King.

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to have you look at it, but I don’t think it is germane to what we have talked about today.

Mr. PALMER. I was thinking about my perhaps excitement over the phone call from Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to tell us about that?

Mr. PALMER. Well, if it is not redundant or repetitious.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this is the call that Wilma Hughes received?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. PALMER. Well, I recognized immediately on television, Jack. Prior to that, well Wilma called me stating that she had talked to Conrad Brown who she called Jack, who also is known professionally as Alton Sharp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Wilma call you?

Mr. PALMER. Early Sunday morning. And she said will you be seeing Jack today. The reason I assumed at the time the she asked me was that she did not herself frequent the clubs as a representative. I said, “It is doubtful.”

She said “Jackie (meaning Alton Sharp) said to tell Jack Ruby not to send a letter, it would do no good now.” And I said, “That is cryptic, what does it mean?”

And she said. “I don’t know, but be sure and tell Jack today.” With no particular emphasis on the word today.

I said, “I hadn’t planned on seeing Jack Ruby, but if I do, I would relay the message.” And then later the murder, and I could not quite correlate any reason why Chicago was indicating to people in my office, in my jurisdiction, anything that would pertain to AGVA, so I simply relayed this, and perhaps became over-concerned with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since learned of anything which would indicate what that telephone call was?

Mr. PALMER. The reason was given to me, but I don’t accept it, actually. The story was that the pressure he was putting on Jack to have him conform more closely to AGVA and rules and regulations that prompted him to talk to Alton Sharp in Chicago about writing a letter to New York concerning me. Jack had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Concerning you? Meaning Tom Palmer?

Mr. PALMER. Right. Jack Ruby had also asked me if he could. I said yes. But I couldn’t understand his sending any pertinent data to Chicago, which was not a regional office and had no jurisdiction over this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of friendship did Jack have with Conrad Brown or Alton Sharp?

Mr. PALMER. Alton was at one time branch manager here just preceding me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack particularly friendly with this man?

Mr. PALMER. Alton Sharp indicated to me that he would bear watching and require much work to keep him current. And other than that I felt that Alton Sharp’s friendship was no more than it is with any other nightclub operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say that you felt that the explanation that was given to you wasn’t satisfactory. I take it you must have something in mind as to what really was taking place.

Mr. PALMER. I didn’t know what importance this phone call was at that time, and of course, now, with time having dulled the image of it somewhat, I still cannot understand what was of importance, of such importance that would require a weekend transaction of AGVA business, which is not common on Sunday. However, we are on duty as representatives every day of the week, but this request not to send a letter seemed urgent for some reason when Wilma told me that Alton had relayed this to her in his conversation to her that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Alton Sharp was discharged from his job about that same time?

Mr. PALMER. Shortly thereafter, I believe. I am not sure chronologically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been before?

Mr. PALMER. I couldn’t say. I would have to check with some information that I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Jack Ruby may have been attempting to help Alton Sharp in Sharp’s relationship with AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. I would assume; yes. He did try to do that. His feeling was that if he helped anyone, and as a matter of fact, he helped me, or he thought he had, on several occasions, in any relationship with AGVA, I am sure he felt that this was beneficial to his own dealings with AGVA. And when I say he helped me, he spoke laudatory of me in the presence of officials from New York. Anyway, that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any other questions then.

Mr. PALMER. Fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for taking your time to come here today. You have been very helpful to us today.

Mr. PALMER. Bye.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH WELDON JOHNSON, JR.

The testimony of Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr. was taken at 5 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Before we ask anybody to testify, we give you a preliminary spiel on what this hearing is all about.

I will start out by telling you that the Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of Congress, and we have been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that we can find that bear upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today particularly because of your past employment with Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant.

Now I have been directed under the rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the Commission, to take your testimony, and under these rules and regulations, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice to come here to testify.

The first thing I will ask you is when did you receive a letter from us, if you did?

Mr. JOHNSON. When did I receive the letter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see. This date here, it is July 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you received it in plenty of time, and we can go ahead and take your testimony. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me about this before we start?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, not especially, because I talked with the FBI several times before, and I told them everything I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is good. We want to now get it in the testimony formally. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the reporter your full name, please?

Mr. JOHNSON. My name is Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell the middle name?

Mr. JOHNSON. W-e-l-d-o-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. JOHNSON. 12130 Willowdell Drive, Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. JOHNSON. July 16, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am a musician; bandleader.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a bandleader?

Mr. JOHNSON. Since, well, I have been a professional bandleader since 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to work for Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you work for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember the exact month. I believe it was March 1956--1957, that is when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work continuously for him from that time on?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in your band?

Mr. JOHNSON. Five, including myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of music did you provide?

Mr. JOHNSON. Variety of music. We have a very--well, I would say we played progressive jazz, rock and roll, and ballads.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you eventually left Ruby’s employment, didn’t you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Second of November of last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that date with a great deal of conviction. Is that a date you are sure of?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I just wanted to change, just wanted to change places. I had been there so long, and a fellow came and talked to me about playing in another club, and I just decided I felt the change would be good for my group and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your whole group with you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any of the members of the band who stayed on with Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the pianoplayer, Leonard Wood, stayed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that happen?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he felt that he could continue to stay there and keep the place going. I had a pretty good following there--but I understand it didn’t work out too well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s reaction to your leaving the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, actually, Jack hadn’t been at the Vegas Club. He was downtown here, you know, and, well, he was kind of hurt. He didn’t like it too well, but I had no contract at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that your band had been stolen from him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don’t think so, because this was my decision.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about his attitude toward your leaving?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that you recall?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he wanted to know if I was leaving him for good, and if there would be a possibility, if anything else would come up in the future, would I be interested in coming back with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I told him if it would be to the benefit of my group, I would be glad to, but I had a family to support and further, I have to look out for things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to get more money at this new club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; more consideration also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Castaway Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you playing there now?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am at Louann’s now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said more consideration.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had a chance to use some of my ideas. They more or less had things fixed where I couldn’t use my imagination, how I wanted to sell and so forth publicitywise, and I got better publicity and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it that you were restricted at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, more or less they won’t do anything to make the club look decent, where I would invite people out that I felt were special guests, and I just felt like this other club was better equipped, but I wouldn’t mind inviting anyone out there. And I had been at the Vegas Club, and he continued to say, “We are going to do this,” and they never would get around to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things?

Mr. JOHNSON. I mean like fixing up the club and making it look decent. In fact, it looked the same way it did when I first moved there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your dealings were with Jack Ruby, and how much of them were with his sister, Eva Grant?

Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see; I believe since 1959, all of my dealings were with his sister and not with him. Before then, it was all with him, because she wasn’t in town. She came in from, I don’t know, California, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know that his sister was operated on in November?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that operation take place while you were still working for her?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby get in any fights while you worked for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of those?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was just about some of the people that would come to the club that would get in trouble, and he just, you know, wouldn’t hardly stand for that in his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know George Senator?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not personally, but I mean I had worked on shows with them. They used to have shows at the Vegas Club, and she had worked some of the shows over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack put on a striptease show at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would he have those shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. They used to have them every Friday night, but some time last year, maybe around August or something like that, something happened that they discontinued them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he start having the striptease shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember, but several years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease shows at the Vegas Club before he opened the Carousel Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t think so. I don’t remember for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know another of his striptease dancers, Kathy Kay?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I have heard the name. It is familiar; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a policeman named Harry Olsen?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not by name. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ruby’s dancer, Little Lynn?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; that name doesn’t register.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all on November 22 or 23, the Friday that the President was shot, and the Saturday afterward?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or employees over that weekend?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I recall; nobody that would be close to him, I would say. Maybe some of his friends, but offhand, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not Ralph Paul or George Senator or Tammi True?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don’t remember seeing any of those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby attempt to promote any records for you?

Mr. JOHNSON. He had talked about it. He never did promote any records for me. He talked about it, what he could do, but he never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it never get beyond the talking stage?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, because he never did do anything about it. He just talked about it, and he said that was from some friends he knew over the country that he felt would do a favor for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a master of ceremonies at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. You mean when we had shows, or nightly?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nightly.

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he had shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have shows every Saturday night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; the shows were Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have them every Friday night?

Mr. JOHNSON. For a while; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a professional master of ceremonies, or did he do his own master of ceremonies?

Mr. JOHNSON. Occasionally he would, and sometimes he would have others.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever aware of any restrictions that Jack put on as to the kind of jokes that the master of ceremonies could tell?

Mr. JOHNSON. You mean did he limit them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you know of?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am sure--well, they never got, you know, where the average person wouldn’t accept them, but sometimes they got a little rough, because they were all adults and I guess they felt they could go OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you find Jack Ruby an easy man or difficult man to work for?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, for the average person, I don’t guess too many people could have worked for him, but I knew personally that Jack liked me and his sister liked me. But we would get into arguments, but it wouldn’t last long, and they were very good to me, as far as that is concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show you kindnesses?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he showed everyone kindness. As far as I am concerned, he was a very fine friend. He was a hot-tempered fellow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of kindnesses?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, if I ever needed any good word or something or someone he knew, he would never mind, he liked me, I know, personally. He liked me, but he was just, I say, high-tempered person. And you might run into him one time and he might be one way, and the next time he might be upset, but he would never leave until he would shake your hand if you had had an argument with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean on a nightly basis if you had had an argument that night, you would still walk out having shaken hands on that? Is that what you mean?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you mean that if you had an argument that resulted in termination of employment you would still shake hands with him and go away?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That also?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was the kind of fellow who quickly made up after he had an argument with you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he make up? Did he apologize for his own conduct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any specific episode that you had with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I had so many, I don’t remember. For instance, maybe sometimes his sister would get angry with me, and it might be a night that I should be paid and she wouldn’t pay me. Well, he wouldn’t take sides with her. He would get the money from somewhere and pay me, even if he had to bring it to my house, and he would apologize for her. Or even if anything should occur with him, he would apologize.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you would want to tell us that might shed some light on Jack Ruby on why he committed the crime that he committed.

Mr. JOHNSON. I haven’t the slightest idea, because the only time that I have known Jack--I have known him to shoot in the club when there was some trouble--shoot at the ceiling. We would have heated arguments, but never at any time where he put a pistol on me. I wasn’t afraid to argue with him, because I didn’t think he was that kind of a person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The time that he shot the pistol off in the club, what was he doing it for?

Mr. JOHNSON. They maybe were having a fight in the club, and to scare them he would shoot at the ceiling. I can’t think of anything other than what I have told you. Other than, as far as I am concerned, he was all right.

After leaving, he wasn’t angry with me, and he didn’t appear to be angry with me. We had a heart-to-heart talk, and I just explained to him I thought it would be better for me. I was getting in a rut at the club, and I just wanted to change. We had no angry words or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here and waiting as you had to a bit longer than we expected.

Mr. JOHNSON. Like I say, even if it meant to give up a job, I wanted to do whatever I could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This has been helpful to us because we are trying to get an insight from the experiences other people had with him, and you have helped us today to fill in some gaps that we didn’t have, and I appreciate that very much.

Mr. JOHNSON. I certainly hope I have been some help. Thank you very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bye, bye.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD J. PULLMAN

The testimony of Edward J. Pullman was taken at 7:05 p.m., on July 24, 1964; in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. We have a few preliminaries that we always go through to acquaint you with what we are trying to do here. I might state to you at the outset that the President’s Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order by President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress and under that set of official acts the Commission has been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today in particular because you have been friendly over the years with Jack Ruby and we are hopeful that you can perhaps provide us with some information and insight into Jack Ruby that we wouldn’t have had otherwise. Under the rules promulgated by the Commission, I have been directed specifically to take your deposition. I might tell you that the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to receive 3 days’ written notice before being obliged to testify, and I now ask you at the outset if you received a letter from the Commission and when it was that you did receive it?

Mr. PULLMAN. I received the letter last Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, the 3 days’ provision is complied with. There is another formal question that I will simply ask you and that is if you have any questions about the nature of what will take place in the next half hour or so?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I just wanted to get a little idea of what type of information you are looking for--just what you are concerned with?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In calling you, we are particularly interested in any information that you might have about the activities of Jack Ruby on November 22, 1963, and November 23 and 24, including various other people that we know who were in contact with him and also some background information of Jack Ruby in terms of the various enterprises of his in at least one or two of which I understand you were associated in with him.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And also, perhaps, some general insights to the kind of person Mr. Ruby was.

Mr. PULLMAN. How did you happen to get my name--I know I spoke to the FBI at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you were interviewed by the FBI, and other people that we have talked to have indicated that you, perhaps more so than any others, knew Jack pretty well?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I knew him pretty well; he used to be at my house occasionally and I had an insight to his personal character.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, let me ask you at this point if you will raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PULLMAN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. PULLMAN. Edward J. Pullman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Pullman?

Mr. PULLMAN. 5454 Anita.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. PULLMAN. July 12, 1928--no; that’s July 28, 1912.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. PULLMAN. I am a furniture designer and consultant--games, ideas, promotions--anything for the public; creative ideas for games and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that business?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, about 30 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any formal training in that?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just learned it all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you self-employed?

Mr. PULLMAN. I am working for a company right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And whom do you work for?

Mr. PULLMAN. I’m working for Freed Furniture Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you working for them at the time I have mentioned?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just started with them. I was just working for myself--I have just started with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a family?

Mr. PULLMAN. My wife and daughter and children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When, approximately, did you first meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I met Jack--oh, I’d say several years ago, but I never had any real contact with him, but I had heard a lot about Jack, but I never had any contact with him until 1963, and that was in the summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to make contact with you at that time?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, my wife was the one that I got in contact with him on, because she went to help in the night club. She used to be the manager of the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your wife was the manager of the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she meet Jack as a result of that?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, no; she had left the Theatre Lounge and she wanted to get something to do and she was told that Jack was looking for someone to help him and she was up there and he got her started working. She actually wasn’t working in a true sense of the word because he was never sure of what he wanted. What she could do for him--he couldn’t put anything right down on the line and say, “Yes; I want you to do this or that.” He was very erratic. Every night he ran the place on a different basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she start to work for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was--I’m not sure, but I believe it was in July.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In 1953?

Mr. PULLMAN. 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did she continue to work for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think--about 6 or 8 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did she happen to leave?

Mr. PULLMAN. She didn’t happen to leave--it was just too confusing--the confusion was constant and she couldn’t do things the way they should be run because she had a pretty good idea of how to run a club and she would try to help him and it seemed like he didn’t want to accept any help as far as his operations were concerned and he wanted to do it all himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, what actually, did she wind up doing for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just being a general hostess and seating people and trying to be of service to whoever came in--that was all; and I used to come up there evenings and spend a couple of hours and we got real close--real friendly. And I watched the way he operated and I knew his personality very quickly--he was very hot tempered and I was there one night when he personally threw someone out because he had said something derogatory about Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the time my wife worked there and I also found in talking to him that he couldn’t take anybody who was going to talk against Kennedy or the administration or the Government. Later I learned from other people that he felt the same way about Roosevelt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On this one instance, what specifically was said on the occasion when he threw somebody out?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was about--the MC was making some remark about Barry Goldwater and some other things like that, and someone made some derogatory remarks about Kennedy--I don’t remember the exact words--and he didn’t like what he said about Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the person use profanity?

Mr. PULLMAN. No profanity--just the fact that he didn’t have respect--he didn’t respect the President. That was one of the incidents. Then, there was an incident pretty close to the time--it was in November and we had a Texas Product Show and, of course, I hadn’t seen him in some time up until that particular time and he called me--he had come up with this twistboard and I was showing a bunch of inventions that I had at this Texas Product Show that I had on display there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the Texas Product Show set up?

Mr. PULLMAN. At the Exhibit Hall out on Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that out at the Trade Mart?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; but it’s pretty close--about a block up from the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What month was this?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was in November--the early part of November--I think it was the first week in November, and that’s when he contacted me. It seemed very coincidental--I hadn’t heard from him in months and he called me and he told me he had this twistboard and he needed some idea as to how to merchandise it or what to do with it, and he was always running into various things. He had this English razor blade that he was even trying to sell some of them in his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilkenson blades?

Mr. PULLMAN. Wilkenson blades; and when he called me about the twistboard, I had just been ready to go in to show him all my new ideas--products--at the show, and he thought it might be a good idea to tie the two together and that’s how I got closely associated with him for a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do with his twistboard at the Texas Product Show?

Mr. PULLMAN. I showed it in my space and he would even come down and demonstrate it himself and sell it. I asked him to send some of the girls down and demonstrate it--this twistboard that he had there--exotic dancers down there and he did bring some of them down. As a matter of fact, you will find photographic records of it from the Dallas Times Herald--they took a picture, and he may be in some of those pictures with one of the girls on the twistboard, and I also mentioned the fact that pictures were taken by the Dallas Times Herald newspaper, I believe, and they were actually publicity shots that were taken. Now, he used to come in with this friend, George Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the show run?

Mr. PULLMAN. It ran for a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what week did it run?

Mr. PULLMAN. I believe it was from November 1st through the 7th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did Jack come?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he tried to get down there almost every night if he could, but he did come down one night; he made a tour of the place and he ran across the H. L. Hunt display, and during that time they were giving out a shopping bag with food and a lot of this Lifeline literature that they inserted into the bags and I heard somebody calling my name--I was away up towards the middle of the display and I heard somebody call my name and it was Jack way down below calling me and he was walking at a very fast clip and he had a bunch of papers in his hand and he comes up to me breathless with Senator trailing behind him and showing me all this Lifeline material, and I couldn’t stop to read it because there were people all around the place, and he said, “I’m going to send this stuff to Kennedy--I want to send this stuff to Kennedy.” He said, “Nobody has any right to talk like this about our Government.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Senator was present at the time?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; George Senator was there. He got real excited and I said, “Well, you just know about it now, but Lifeline has been out for some time,” and that’s what he does and that’s how he gets his material around. He said, “I’m going to do something about this, I’m going to see that this is taken up in Washington,” and that was the incident that I recall. I think I even mentioned that to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what this literature was; do you recall any of the specific pieces of literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I know it was anti-administration, anti-Government type of literature that he has always been giving out. I don’t know if you have ever listened to his Lifeline program on the radio or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of literature was this--was there a radio script or pamphlets?

Mr. PULLMAN. Pamphlets--just pamphlets and sheets talking about the Government. I didn’t stop to read them, but I know about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually look at these sheets?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I looked at the sheets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any advertising on it?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; you see, actually, I don’t know whether this ought to be in the record--that was one of the reasons, I understand, that he wasn’t allowed to have his display at the New York Fair because he gives out this type of literature, and they broke his lease on that basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the pamphlets that were put out?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall them if some were suggested to you?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I couldn’t say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack talk about this literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, it was just a few minutes and then took off. He was all excited and red faced, livid, and that’s the way he got--hot and cold like that and I have seen that so many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he complain to anybody at the H. L. Hunt booth?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, there was no one there--there was nobody there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present besides you and George Senator?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever sell any twistboards for Jack?

Mr. PULLMAN. I sold some, I’m sure, and he sold most of them. Any time he came down there, he sold some.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you sell?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, I sold about a dozen--as a matter of fact, he didn’t know how to go about handling the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what way?

Mr. PULLMAN. I suggested to him to try to set up a mail order program on them, and that’s where he got that box number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s where he got what?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s where he got that box number that they are all talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested it?

Mr. PULLMAN. That he try to sell them mail order, you see, and he asked me about using the name of Earl, Earl Products before we went into the show, because I wanted to have some sort of sign at the display by who was showing the twistboards, so we discussed that at first and he said, “Earl Products,” and he didn’t have an address except his home address and I suggested he should use his name and then get a box number and do a mail order business that way and get started.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your promotion at the Texas Product Show a mail-order type of promotion?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, no; just an exhibit. It was just an exhibit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, in there in that exhibit was there a reference to mail orders?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, it was just an exhibit of ideas--an exhibit of all new kinds of new inventions, and this was a new idea that come up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the advertising you did for it at the Texas Product Show, was there a reference made to a post office box number?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, the post office box did not come up until after the Texas Product Show was over?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was--I don’t recall whether it was after or before. He was trying to figure out how to handle the sale of them--whether he would go direct to the stores and sell them because some of the stores already had some similar ones, and that’s why, I believe, he decided to go on a mail order.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he going to promote it through the mail--through somebody’s catalog or through direct mail solicitation?

Mr. PULLMAN. Through direct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to do it?

Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know. I didn’t know anything about that afterward. You see, I hadn’t seen him. After the show closed he came in and picked up his things and that was the last time I actually saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about plans for manufacturing the twistboard himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was just when he was trying to get some idea from me since I was a furniture man, or was, because the twistboard has some kind of a swivel device in there that we use in swivel chairs, and he wanted to get some ideas about it, whether it would be better off for him to manufacture them or let someone else make them and contract them, but he never went any further than that with me. He wanted my ideas about actually making it, fabricating the whole thing, and buying and getting the parts and assembling it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you suggest to him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I just would let them stay where they are--with the people that were making them, really running them, and see how they go over first, and then eventually go on his own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that suggestion before the Texas Products Show, during, or after?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the show. You see, I didn’t know about this--I hadn’t seen him up until the Texas Product Show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, this would have been about late October that you first learned about it, or were you actually set up at the show?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, at the show--this all happened within the week of the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the first day that you opened out there at the Texas Product Show, you didn’t have the twistboards?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he already had them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t have them out there?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you had them for the first full day?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he called me just before the show opened, about a day before the show opened, and that following night he brought them over. As a matter of fact, we tried to get them there at the time because they were going to have a big to-do with the opening--the publicity and all--for the exhibits, which come about anyway, but that was one of the things I recall. I know it was on the same day--he came across with them on the same day--he brought over about three dozen, and that’s all he had, and we sold about a dozen and I paid him whatever I got for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he charging for each one?

Mr. PULLMAN. $2.95.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of commission did he plan to provide for the distributor?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he didn’t know for sure what he was going to pay--he had no idea--40 percent off or 50 percent off or, if he didn’t have a distributor, he was going to be the distributor. He would have hired salesmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to inquire into producing the thing himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, but as far as that, that’s about all I know that was closest to the time of the actual happening. Prior to that I knew him just while my wife had worked there those few weeks and I realized that he was a very erratic person and not a very easy person to talk to, to know, also the fact that he became upset very easily and cooled off just as quickly, but I have seen him just haul off and lambast or hit someone without thinking twice, because--his club was run very well--considering.

I mean, he tried to keep it clean. He didn’t try to let any rowdiness come into it like some of the other places of that type, so that he was kind of proud of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of his employees?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just as manager--Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?

Mr. PULLMAN. I knew of the girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PULLMAN. Wait just a minute; was Tammi True the one he brought--the name rings a bell--I think he brought her out to the product show to demonstrate--she demonstrated the board. They got her picture.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I knew most of the girls that were there. We knew--what’s her name--that New Orleans girl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?

Mr. PULLMAN. Jada or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the night club?

Mr. PULLMAN. I was there at the time when she was brought in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on her?

Mr. PULLMAN. He never turned the lights out on her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least not in your presence?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; he wouldn’t never do that. He would give her an awful lot of hell, he would almost hit her--I’ll tell you that, but he wouldn’t turn the lights out.

Are you talking about on stage?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; if she got a little bit too risque, he would turn the lights out on her. He was very much concerned about the law.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he argue with her about it?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, she was just getting too raw--that was most of the argument, and as a matter of fact, he called the vice squad the first night she was there and he wanted them to see what she was doing--he wanted to know he was not doing wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present there then?

Mr. PULLMAN. I was present that night and I stood right with the head man on the vice squad and watched the show, because Jack kind of leaned on me because I acted as more of a host for him at the door, and I knew I saw all of these cops in there most of the time and they were all very nice--they were all served coffee--they were very nice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Harry Olsen, Officer Olsen?

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t know too many of them by name, but I knew they were law men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the fellow that Kathy Kay was dating, the officer she was dating?

Mr. PULLMAN. Was that Kathy Kay or Kathy King?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy Kay.

Mr. PULLMAN. A blonde?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really know.

Mr. PULLMAN. An English girl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, she’s English.

Mr. PULLMAN. And she was going with an officer?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him?

Mr. PULLMAN. She was engaged to him; yes, I had seen him up there. He used to come up there every night to take her home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationship did Jack have with this officer?

Mr. PULLMAN. Very nice--very well--he never had any trouble with him. He got along very well then with the officers. They would come up there and he had coffee. He was proud of the fact that he was able to have them in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. PULLMAN. Where I was?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN. I was in bed. I had just gotten up and turned the TV on and I saw Jack shooting Oswald as the picture came on, that’s all I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I asked you--when President Kennedy was shot, where were you?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, we were watching at home--my wife and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go out of your house at that time at all?

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t go out for 3 days--I didn’t budge out of the house for 3 days. I was very much shook up over it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby before the President was shot?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was at the Texas Product Show, was the last time I saw him, the first week in November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he had been over to your house?

Mr. PULLMAN. He was over a few times--it was on the twistboard that he came over the first--well, that was just the last--when I saw him, but he would come over just to talk to my wife and get some ideas and what to do about the club, but he would never do it, no matter what you told him. He wouldn’t do anything, but he was looking for friends--he was looking for friends. He would come in on a Sunday with sweetrolls and spend an hour or two, with his dogs, and I never saw anybody so crazy about animals. I mean, his own dogs, but as a whole, I think that my own honest opinion of the man--the man has been insane. He was psycho. I’m not talking about at the time--I’m talking before--I mean, he was not right, because when you talked to him, you think he is listening and you would look up and he would say, “I wasn’t listening, what were you saying?” He was off somewhere--he would hear what he wanted to hear, unless you asked him a question to get a direct answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let’s go back to the H. L. Hunt literature--was H. L. Hunt distributing food as well as literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. They were giving away samples and they gave away shopping bags and this stuff was already stuffed into the bags.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, when you would pick up the literature----

Mr. PULLMAN. It was in there already. That’s what Jack told me when he come by, he said, “Look what I found in this bag.” He was looking to see what was in there, and I immediately recognized that Life Line material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be familiar with Life Line?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just by accidentally listening on the radio at home. They had it on the radio around 6 or 7 o’clock on Saturday and we were listening to--what is the name of that program--you don’t know that local radio program that’s on every Saturday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it on the same station that Life Line is on?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a music program?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, it’s sort of a comment thing.

The REPORTER. Is it “comment”?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, comment, I believe that is the name of it. It is an interview program that comes on right in there somewhere and it’s news and goes on all the time, but this comes in there somewhere, and I never want to hear it, but when you do hear it, you sort of get interested in listening to find out what they are saying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had read this literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he must have read some of it to get so excited. He must have, and I said, “I’m sure that Kennedy knows all about this, and Washington knows all about this.”

He said, “Maybe they don’t.” He said, “I’m going to send it in.” And I said, “Well, you do what you want.” And that’s the last I heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think that it was unusual for Jack to be sensitive to that wording?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I was a little bit surprised that he would take the initiative that he did, never thinking that he thought like that. I didn’t think he had that much intellect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever campaign for anybody, has he ever been interested in any sort of politics?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any literature that was found in his possession endorsing the conservative Democratic slate; did he ever tell you he was campaigning for anybody?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, he never discussed politics. The only thing he talked with me about was when he was working for the union back in Chicago days and how he lost his finger in a fight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he tell you he lost his finger?

Mr. PULLMAN. That it was shot off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear it was bitten off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I did hear about that too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack tell you--that it was shot off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Shot off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear about it being bitten off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Then I heard later--later on somebody made the remark that it was actually bitten off in a fight and then I didn’t know what to believe, and knowing the type and coming from the East, I am originally from New York and I have known lots of fellows like that--there are a lot of people who were involved with unions and who were always in that element.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other things that Jack ever mentioned to you that he was sensitive about?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he didn’t like any vulgarity in his place. That was another surprise to me. Of course, he always bragged that he was a very rough fellow when he had the Silver Spur place on Ervay, I believe it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him then?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, but he would brag about the fact that he was so rough people would walk on the other side of the street because they were so afraid of him at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time your wife started to work for him until you last saw him at the Texas Product Show, about how much time would you say you spent with him?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, practically almost every evening around the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period of time?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was about 2 months--I just can’t remember exactly--how long it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would that be each evening, would you be there the entire evening?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I would spend the whole evening down there and he trusted everyone. I tried to show him a lot of mistakes that were going on there but he didn’t care. He just didn’t care. Everyone had their finger in his till. Everybody went to the cash register, which was a very unusual thing, knowing what was going on in the other clubs--everything was accounted for every night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean people were taking out money for their own use or something that they used it for down there, or did anybody and everybody have access to the cash register?

Mr. PULLMAN. They all had access, and he was always short every night--he was short, and that was another reason why my wife didn’t want to stay, and I didn’t think she should stay, because of all that going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have his waitresses on a salary?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he pay them?

Mr. PULLMAN. They worked on tips--they worked on tips--that’s how it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much money could those girls make in a night?

Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know--that varied--I never could tell what that was--that varied.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about his plans to open a new nightclub.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he has had plans for other places--sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did he tell you about that?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he had one particular location that he kept talking about, and he wanted to open a real high class place and as a matter of fact he offered me the proposition to take it over, manage it and host it, and my wife didn’t want any part of it, knowing the type of person he was, and I didn’t want to be involved with anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any other business with him besides the twistboard?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was the only thing--that’s all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were never involved in the sale of any vitamin pills or any other products with him?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; the only reason I thought that the twistboard had merit was because it was a new idea and it fitted in with the new products show, and I discussed it with the promoters of the show before I even took it in and they thought it wouldn’t hurt to put it in there at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you encourage Jack in the idea that that might be a profitable venture?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I did, because I thought possibilities, but he had to know how to go about doing it. He had no market set up for it, but I felt we may find out what appeal it really had, and which would be the best way to sell it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his response to the appeal that was demonstrated at the Texas Products Show?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he learned one thing--that you have to demonstrate it to sell it. If it was just lying on a counter, you couldn’t sell them. You could probably sell it mail order, where they don’t see it--you just describe it like any other mail-order product, but to really sell it, you have to see it. Every time it was demonstrated, it was sold, and when he would come down, he put on a real pitch with it too and he could sell it. I didn’t bother selling them--I was just showing them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get on it and demonstrate it himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he got on it and demonstrated it. Took his jacket off and would stand there and he would be having a ball and eventually he would sell two or three of them to the crowd standing around seeing him standing on the board there, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have any music or anything to twist with?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; he would just talk and twist and show it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was sort of like a sideshow barker?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s right--well, he didn’t bark--he just explained what was happening--all the muscles were working and how it tightened up their stomach muscles. I came out with one formal effort. I got one at home and I gave it away--a couple of friends wanted one and the grandkids got them. So, that one thing, I believe I can honestly say that down deep he was good natured--a good-natured guy, but he was always just trying to prove something; I don’t know what, but he was trying to prove something all the time--that he belonged.

This is another thing I recall--he would tell the MC what jokes to tell, what stories he should work on, and he would promote them, because he ran the lights and all from the board and prompted them in their stories. He would naturally talk loud enough so everybody would turn around and see who was talking, you see, to get the attention to himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the MC react?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he was fine--this was Wally Weston--he didn’t mind. Have you ever talked to Wally?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t.

Mr. PULLMAN. He could give you an awful lot of testimony on Jack’s background. He was with Jack for over 2 years and he helped make that club. Wally Weston was formerly with Abe Weinstein’s Colony Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you what I have marked for the purposes of identification as Edward J. Pullman’s deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This document consists of two pages that are numbered at the bottom, consecutively numbers 208 and 209, and it purports to be a copy of an interview report that FBI Agent Jack K. Peden prepared after talking with you on December 13, 1963. I would like you to read it over and tell us if the report that you have there accurately reflects what you said to him on December 13.

Mr. PULLMAN. It’s practically as near as possible the same thing I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any corrections to make in that, do you?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, if that is satisfactory, let me ask you to sign your name to it on the first page and then initial the second page up near the top.

Mr. PULLMAN. You mean right around here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN (signed and initialed instrument referred to). That’s where you wanted my initials?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that’s all right. Thank you very much for coming up. I have no more questions.

Mr. PULLMAN. I just hope that I was of some help to you anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you have been, and we appreciate it very much, you taking out this time to come up.

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t mind doing that. My grandkids will have a nice letter there. That’s something they will have--a memento from getting a letter from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. PULLMAN. All right.

TESTIMONY OF HERBERT B. KRAVITZ

The testimony of Herbert B. Kravitz was taken at 7:45 p.m., on July 24th, 3964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kravitz, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. We have a few preliminary matters that we always go through with the witnesses to explain to them a little bit about the Commission and what we are doing. The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under that Executive order and the joint resolution, the Commission has been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here tonight in particular because you have been acquainted with Jack Ruby, and particularly because you saw him shortly before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Now, the Commission has a set of rules and regulations which are promulgated and under those rules and regulations I have been specifically designated to take your testimony. There is a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to have 3 days’ written notice before he appears before the Commission and I will ask you at this point if you have received a letter from us and when you received it?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it 3 days ago or more?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I’ll tell you in this case that I have just moved recently, and the letter was lost in the mail and I just got the letter yesterday, but I was notified by telephone, which I think was more than 3 days ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have no objection to going forward at this point?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any particular questions you want to ask before I start to question you?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name for the record?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Herbert B. Kravitz.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell your last name?

Mr. KRAVITZ. K-r-a-v-i-t-z [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. KRAVITZ. In Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts in Dallas?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Bachman Boulevard; 2631.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. KRAVITZ. On March 12, 1938.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And are you employed?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Self-employed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Publishing business; I am with 20th Century Publishers, Inc.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of publication do you have?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, our first book will be out the end of August. It’s a fairly new enterprise--it’s approximately 4 months old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I was on the road with a clothing outfit and traveled part of the country. That’s how I first got to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Jack Ruby, don’t you?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first happen to meet him?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I was with an entertainer friend of mine--I really can’t give you specific dates, but the entertainer was a comedian, Fred Barber, [spelling] B-a-r-b-e-r.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s Barber?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; and Fred and I were in a Chinese restaurant--Yee’s--and Jack Ruby, I presume, saw Fred’s act and came over to the table and introduced himself to Fred and myself. I did not know him prior to that and asked Fred and myself to come to his club, which we did the next evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the President was assassinated?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, that was quite some time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Several months?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, I really can’t say--it was just 4 or 5 or 6 months, I suppose, and then I saw Mr. Ruby. After that I went to his club a few times. I saw Mr. Ruby approximately a week before the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked with two FBI agents, Joseph Peggs and Alvin Zimmerman, you indicated that the last time you saw Ruby at the Carousel Club was on November 20; that would be 2 days before the assassination?

Mr. KRAVITZ. It’s very possible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would your memory have been more accurate at that time than it is now?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I said a week--it could have been 2 or 3 days. It was very near to the assassination of the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive at the club that night?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I had a date, so I would say it was in the evening, I’m not sure, but about 9 o’clock or after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much time did you spend with Ruby that night?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, he came over to the table and talked with my date and myself--I didn’t spend a lot of time with him, really, I didn’t spend a lot of time with him--Jack knew me and we were acquaintances. We weren’t what you would call close friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything at that time about President Kennedy?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; nothing at all. I never discussed politics, I never got into anything with Mr. Ruby about politics, and probably I said something about the time of day and how are you and so forth and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you discuss with him, though, aside from the time of day--what seemed to be Ruby’s particular interest?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, I never discussed much with Mr. Ruby. At one time--when all this happened, it was in the Jewish holidays, and one incident I had with Mr. Ruby, he called me up once and wanted me to go with him to the synagogue, but I didn’t know Mr. Ruby well and I didn’t really want to go to the synagogue with Mr. Ruby--he is a character and so on and so forth, and I think he got a little aggravated with me, and I didn’t see him after that until the night which you are talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this telephone request before you saw him?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, God, I would say months--I didn’t go back to that place until this young lady I was out with that night wanted to go there, and I said to her, “Well, I really don’t want to go there,” and said that I had had words with Jack Ruby, and I don’t know how she interpreted that, but anyway, I did go back and I shook hands with him that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you in connection with any high holiday?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; there was one of the high holidays--it was either, if you are familiar with them, it was either Rosh Hashanah, or Yom Kippur--it was one of those; but I can’t be sure which.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to call you?

Mr. KRAVITZ. That’s a good question; I don’t know. The night that we were out with Freddie Barber, we talked until 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the morning--Freddie Barber and myself--we went out after, for breakfast, and I think he might have been impressed with me: I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know what business you were in at that time?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the clothing business at that time?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any reason to think that you might have had a connection with Barber that he wanted to use?

Mr. KRAVITZ. There is a possibility, I don’t know, he might have thought that I was Freddie’s agent, or something, but I don’t think that came up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he talked to you about his religious beliefs?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his synagogue attendance before that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; not really. I knew he was Jewish. He mentioned to me going to the rabbi, not the synagogue, but at other times, that he went to the rabbi for counsel or something like that, but we never got into any discussions on religion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Barber Jewish?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Jack have realized that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I think so; but our religion per se.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever suggested to you that he would like you to work for him or anything like that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; that evening, he suggested the possibility of our rooming together. This is the first time we met and I just, you know, laughed; I didn’t say anything. I had no intention of ever rooming with Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to mention that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I really don’t know; that’s the first time I was with him--this was the evening that Freddie and I were together with him and the first time I ever met the man and I guess that he was interested in moving into an apartment. In fact, he was interested in moving into this Spa, this new building over here, and was looking for a roommate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the one on Turtle Creek?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate to you that he had made any application to move in there?

Mr. KRAVITZ. The building wasn’t completed; I think he possibly had checked into it, but I really don’t know about filling out an application for it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been back in the summer of 1963?

Mr. KRAVITZ. If we could find when Freddie Barber played in Dallas, I could tell you exactly; he’s a friend of mine and he plays for 2 weeks at Club Village, which is a club here in town. It possibly could have been last summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there was any homosexual interest on Jack’s part?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; that question was raised to me before. I really have no idea as to Jack’s sexual prowess, I certainly don’t think the man was homosexual, but then, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This must have been a rather lengthy conversation you had with him?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; his club closed at 12 or 1 o’clock, and Freddie and myself and Jack and George Senator, his roommate went to a restaurant, and we sat and talked until--it must have been 4 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see George Senator at any time after Oswald was shot?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to see any of the people who are associated with the Carousel Club since Oswald was shot?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The night that you saw Ruby shortly before the assassination, did you notice anything unusual about his behavior?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you anything about any interest he had in Cuba?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that might be of interest to us we haven’t covered?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Not to my knowledge; now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am going to mark for identification what is a one-page document prepared by FBI Agents Peggs and Zimmerman as a result of an interview they had with you on November 27, 1963. I’m going to mark this exhibit as Herbert B. Kravitz, July 24, 1963, Exhibit 1, and I will hand it to you and ask you to look at it and tell me if that is an accurate report of what you said to Zimmerman and Peggs on November 27?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, this is an error here; Parker--that name is wrong--it should be Fred Barber, otherwise that’s pretty accurate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you to sign it in a conspicuous spot not far from where it has been marked.

(Mr. Kravitz signed instrument referred to.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; thank you very much. I have no more questions. I appreciate your coming here tonight.

Mr. KRAVITZ. All right; I was glad to come.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ROSSI

The testimony of Joseph Rossi was taken at 8:05 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

We have a routine procedure of giving a little information before we start to take testimony, about what we are doing here. I should say first of all, that I should tell you that the President’s Commission was set up by Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald and to report back to the President on the facts that we are able to determine in that connection. We have asked you to come here this evening in particular because you have known Jack Ruby and you saw him not too long before President Kennedy came to town.

I have been specifically designated under the rules of the Commission to take your testimony. You have indicated that you didn’t get your letter until a day or so ago. The rules provide that you are entitled to 3 days’ notice before appearing here, and I might ask you if you are willing to go ahead now without the 3 days’ notice?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, what would the notice be in effect for?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would just give you 3 days to get ready for it.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I wouldn’t be any readier, I don’t know, if perhaps talking to a counselor or something like that; but it wouldn’t necessarily gain anything--I’m just wondering why they waited this long to get to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we have had a lot of work to do and we all wish we could have gotten around a little sooner than we did. If you are willing to go ahead, let me ask you to raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROSSI. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name to the court reporter?

Mr. ROSSI. Joseph Rossi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how do you spell your last name?

Mr. ROSSI. R-o-s-s-i [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now, Mr. Rossi?

Mr. ROSSI. At the present I reside at 4433 Purdue Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. ROSSI. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. ROSSI. October 24, 1914.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What business are you in?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, at present I am primarily in real estate; or I should say, back into the food or restaurant business and various enterprises. I conduct and am interested in two or three different things; investments, and small little businesses, and what have you; but basically always handling some real estate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a real estate broker?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes; I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you run a brokerage agency of any sort?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes, I am an agent on my own. I operate singly and cooperate with other brokers. I deal mostly in commercial or resort type properties and primarily representing the South Padre Island Investment Company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know Jack Ruby?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, for one thing, we came from the same town and the same neighborhood. I met Jack Ruby when he was here in Dallas and I had been in the entertainment business, in a sense, and worked around with shows and clubs and expositions, and naturally knew quite a few of the club operators around town, or restaurant men and one way or another, ran into Jack Ruby, who was operating a club, and, because of our same birthplace, or growing up in the same town, in the same neighborhood, gave us something in common to talk about. I actually didn’t know him in Chicago and our paths never crossed there. I am surprised, they didn’t because we resided pretty close in the same area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was it that you first met Jack?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say about 12 or 15 years ago, something like that, and maybe longer now. These months go by now--but I don’t really know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Over the years, how often did you see him?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I might see him possibly every day for weeks or so at a time, and then it might be I would not see the man for a year, so to speak.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would it come about that you would happen to see him every day for a period of time?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, in the latter years I had a coffee shop in the Mercantile Security Building and Jack had his attorney--who officed there in that building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which attorney was that?

Mr. ROSSI. Stanley Kaufman; and Jack would have occasion to see him on business or one thing or another. Now, during that period of time I saw Jack, you might say, fairly often--once every couple of weeks or sometimes two or three times a week, but sometimes possibly for not a month. Prior to that time, in his different club enterprise or what have you, because my group--myself and my wife would like to dance or occasionally I go out and look for something in the way of various ideas and call on different people, and possibly stop into a club or two, and I would run into Jack Ruby, or possibly meet him out in a bowling alley or something of that nature. I’m not Jewish, but I patronize them because I like Jewish food and I would occasionally run into Jack in a kosher restaurant or somewhere, or anywhere in town, and I am fairly well known in the downtown area of Dallas and so we would always have a little something to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the fall of 1963, were you ever involved in any business enterprise with him?

Mr. ROSSI. With Jack?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ROSSI. I never really was involved in any business enterprise with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack the opening of a new nightclub?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first talk to you about that?

Mr. ROSSI. That was a day or two before the assassination--that must have been about the 20th of November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that discussion take place?

Mr. ROSSI. Now, I’m going to just take a guess at the dates when I say the 20th--it may have been the 19th. I would have to go back and check some of these things, but I would say roughly somewhere about the 20th, or the day before I left for Brownsville. I was going to a brokers meeting on South Padre Island.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe this would refresh your recollection. When you were interviewed by the FBI on November 25, they have reported that you told them you thought it was the 20th that you saw him; would your recollection at that time have been accurate?

Mr. ROSSI. I think that’s about correct, because I believe the President was assassinated on the 22d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.

Mr. ROSSI. That’s when I arrived in Brownsville. I left the previous evening, and I believe it was just the day before, when I spoke to Jack, so I would say it was the 20th--that’s--the 20th is about correct, and at that time he discussed two things with me. He had with him a novelty item--a twistboard. It was not very large, about a foot or so square and on a swivel base or a bearing base, and he was quite enthused about it. I go in for some of those little promotional deals of one nature or another, and Jack knew it so he asked my opinion of it and told me it looked like it was going to be a hot item. His brother or relative or some friend, I forget whether it was locally or in Chicago, manufactured them so he had the exclusive or the complete deal on it. The object was to get on the board and twist and that exercised you. In other words, it would be an entertaining or amusement type of exercise--both at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you express any opinion to him?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes; I thought it had good possibilities, and had pretty good appeal, and there were various other things that we spoke of regarding it. He was looking for a little financing or possibly wasn’t looking for financing. I am trying to recollect whether he wanted some financing on it or not, and how much it would take to go into it on a big scale. He asked if I was interested and I told him at the time I wasn’t. I was pretty well tied up and involved with the South Padre Island resort properties and we were doing some promotional work on the sales of the island, so I told him I would take a raincheck on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other business you talked about?

Mr. ROSSI. The other business he also discussed with me was regarding a new type of club--a new type of nightclub, and that it was going to be better, or upgraded from what he had, and I think it was going to be somewhat of a girlie club--swankier and all that--I don’t know whether it was going to be a burlesque or not--I don’t quite recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him mention anything about a Playboy Club?

Mr. ROSSI. No; at least he didn’t mention that to me in regards to this, or, he may have been thinking something about that--that may have been the reference to the girls or something of that nature, because it wasn’t going to be just a burlesque type of club. It was going to be a lot on the higher scale and he wanted to know if I would be interested in it. I told him that, again at the present time I wasn’t interested but not to exclude me, if things changed or time permitted, that I would consider looking into it further, and if it was worthwhile I would, or if I could afford to, I would participate in it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he want you to invest some money in it?

Mr. ROSSI. Not necessarily; Jack was always pretty nice to me. He had made me offers a number of times to locate my brokerage office up in his club area--he had some spare office space there--and he says, “You are welcome to the space anytime you want it, desk, or equipment.” Then at the time I had been looking around for one or two other coffee or snackbar locations, and he informed me that he had equipment up there in his club--kitchen equipment and so forth--and he would be more than glad to give it to me. He was very generous; he said, “If you want it, just take what you need.” He said, “Anything I’ve got you can have.” I have never really done anything special for, or given Jack anything of any nature--it’s just that possibly I understood him a little bit better than the average person. We have something in common, as I say, from our childhood days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What exactly did he want you to do with this club?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, nothing; he knows I’m pretty good as a manager or as an operator--my background has been with food and entertainment. He knew I understood that end of the business. I’m not a drinker or anything like it, and I am pretty steady and dependable.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this conversation take place?

Mr. ROSSI. This took place in the arcade or the lobby of the Mercantile Security Building in front of where, and also in, what used to be my snackbar or coffeeshop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack arranged to meet you there?

Mr. ROSSI. No, no. It was one of those chance meetings where he saw me and then just stopped and started talking about the twistboard. I had no idea of even being there at the coffeeshop, let alone that I would see Jack there. My time was limited, because I was making preparations to leave town that night, and I was talking about this the day before--that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the day was it when you saw him?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say it was in the a.m., about, somewhere around 10--possibly 11 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what his business was at the Mercantile Security Building?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, he was going up on the assumption also--I don’t recall positively if he mentioned that particular fact, I think he did say something in regards to going up and seeing Mr. Kaufman, his attorney, and looking into this twistboard--I don’t recall whether it was in regards to possibly setting up a corporation, or whether it had to do with getting the patent rights or the exclusiveness or something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he specifically mentioned that he was going up to see somebody about the legal aspects of the twistboard.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, as I say, I don’t recall just why he was going up to see him, whether it was about the legal aspects of the board or what, but he did mention he was going up to see Mr. Kaufman in regards to something on the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been that he mentioned he was going up to see another attorney about the twistboard?

Mr. ROSSI. I believe he mentioned a tax problem, or at least I mentioned it--there was something or a discussion about a tax problem, inasmuch as he had been involved with a tax problem with the Internal Revenue Department and during the discussion of the club deal. Of course I was aware of his tax problem, and I wasn’t going to especially participate in any venture with Jack because I knew that he did have problems of this nature and I didn’t want to become involved. But at the same time I did bring up the fact that, “Well, won’t this interfere with this business venture or anything like that, that you have?” And he made mention then that he had accumulated or gotten some money or was in the process of getting this all taken care of. That he had the tax problem settled or finalized, and that they would meet with some agreement as to how much or just what amount they would settle for. He was going to get that all squared off, and I believe he made mention of the fact that he had some money set aside for that required settlement. I don’t know the exact amount of money, but I think it ran up a fair size sum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this conversation last, approximately?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say 20 or 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, yes; one of my former employees was there--well two of them--actually, one is still managing the coffeeshop and the other happened to be in the coffeeshop at the time, and I believe he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are their names?

Mr. ROSSI. One of them is Joseph Di Gangi and the other is John Trace, and I believe at the time I was talking to Mr. Di Gangi when Jack came walking down the hall and came in. That’s how I got to talking to Jack, and I believe Mr. Di Gangi became engrossed in talking to somebody else and Jack and I stepped, out in the hall in order to make a little more room for the customers in the snackbar and we did our talking out there.

Is that phone hooked up all right; could I call my present business and let them know where I am at?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.

(At this point the witness, Mr. Rossi, made a telephone call which lasted approximately 3 minutes.)

Mr. ROSSI. Now, before we continue, let me say this--you led me into this deposition without any preliminary discussion. I noticed though in the request to appear that it made mention of the fact that my testimony would be taken and then allowed for me to read and correct and approve--right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ROSSI. So, that answers that question there, because inasmuch as this took place--when the incident took place I was down in the valley in Brownsville and talked to the news reporter there--they have--I guess because of space and one thing or another taken it out of context--your conversation and they use what they want and at times when you are expanding on something which you don’t necessarily feel like that that is what he is going to print, or, you are just voicing a casual opinion, he might pick that up and make that the important part of his text, and the part that you wanted to say he didn’t, and as much as one of the things I did mention to him, and they took this writeup and it didn’t appear, was to me important in the sense that I said, “I’m sure that the people of Dallas were more and even greater shocked than anybody else anywhere and that the Dallas people for the many years that I have lived there have all been fine, good people, and all, and this is a thing that happened in my estimation just out of a clear blue sky.”

The reason I mentioned it to them--at this point, was the fact that already I could see the attitudes and the feeling of the people all around, but he made no mention of that fact in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that appear--in the Brownsville paper?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes. Another thing I want to get in here, and I want to set this in the record before any other testimony that I give, and that is, that what I say is without prejudice against Dallas or anybody or anything. There is a certain attitude that I feel was wrong and has been somewhat corrected as this all took place. Emotionally everybody was pretty well upset and all and what I am describing here, took place before anybody else in the country, or anyone had interviewed Ruby, and, important thing that I want to state now is that I knew Ruby--that Jack Ruby was capable of doing what he did regarding Oswald, even prior to my knowing that Jack Ruby actually did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, to clarify it, let me say this: We had just broken up or finished a meeting that the real estate brokers on the island were having regarding the Padre Island development and promotion, when someone came in from the hotel lobby--we were at the Island Hotel or Motel, and said that they had just shot Harvey or Lee Oswald--somebody had just shot him. One thing led to another--they were going to reshow it, at least we didn’t see the actual first film of the shooting, so to speak, but they were going to reshow it, so a number of us went out to the lobby of the motel to see the TV showing of it, and while standing there we saw the event take place and then the announcement came through that the one who murdered or shot Harvey Lee Oswald was Jack Ludi. There was a Jack Lodi or Ludi or something like that and standing next to me was Mr. John O’Sorio, who is an attorney, and also the counsel for the company down there, and one of the participants and he turned to me and he asked me--he says, “Joe, you are pretty well known in Dallas, at least you know quite a number of people in Dallas, do you know Jack Lodi,” and I replied, “No, I don’t know any Jack Lodi or Jack Luby or Jack Lucas”--whatever it might have been that he said, but I said, “If they had said or made mention of the fact that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald,” I says, “I wouldn’t be too much surprised.”

Then, he asked me why and I says, “Well, he just happens to be that type of a person. He is impulsive and emotional and everything and he probably felt like he was doing something that--a favor or something.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What experiences had you had with Jack Ruby before then that led you to that conclusion?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, now, before I answer that question, let me continue--it was not but a minute or so that they got down to the correction on the name and made mention of the fact that it wasn’t Lodi or whoever it was but a Jack Ruby, a nightclub operator in Dallas. Mr. Osorio turned to me and said, “By golly, you were right.” I said, “I was right, but I was shocked also. I knew that Jack is impulsive, but I didn’t think he would do a thing like that just offhand.”

The things that led me to feel this way about Jack is that I had seen him or I had stopped off into his club or had seen him in a number of discussions and had occasion to see him argue about certain points and things and knew that he got quite emotional and quite upset. He would be right in his own way and would have no way of possibly explaining it to anybody and couldn’t get his point across--it would just get him that much more excited.

I have seen him get pretty worked up over the fact that one of the burlesque dancers was 5 minutes late in her performance and he would just work himself up into a dither, with, “Now, where is she, why isn’t she here on time, it’s show time and she isn’t here,” and he would work himself up and all, and saying that he ought to bop her on the head or something like that, and that he was paying them a salary and he couldn’t depend on them, and I mentioned to him--I said, “Jack, you act like this is a big George White production or something like that.” I said, “After all, your customers are enjoying themselves, they are listening to the emcee and he is popping off jokes and they are drinking their drinks. They don’t even know what time it is, let alone, that the girl is supposed to be on.”

He said, “But that’s beside the point. They pay to come up here and we schedule a show at a certain time and some of these people, even if they don’t know the time, are entitled to see it when we specify it.”

Now, he was that type of a person. When I mention this, I mean that he was pretty well overwrought and quite angry over little things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him get violent over any of these things?

Mr. ROSSI. I never really saw Jack get violent but I saw him get pretty angry, or I say he could be violent, if somebody didn’t cool him off. So, let’s say, that Jack, as I knew him, didn’t drink or smoke and always dressed well, and was in as clean appearance as anybody and kept himself clean and wanted to make a good appearance, and wanted to be somebody socially. As I stated, here in this news article and to the Secret Service men who questioned me, and as I mention in the article here (showing newspaper) that because of the lack of education and one thing or another, he was limited. He wanted to become somebody socially or somebody important, and yet, he wasn’t accepted quite on that status, and I wouldn’t say that the man was frustrated about this, but I know that everything he did, basically he would try to do on an upgrade or try to become somebody more important or better socially or a better man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about his friendships with people who are engaged in gambling or other illegal activities?

Mr. ROSSI. Whether he had any of those or not, or whether he was engaged in any activities of that type, I’m not the least bit aware of, because I never did talk to him about anything or at least he never spoke to me about any of that, if he was, and I didn’t know too many of his other acquaintances outside of by sight or by seeing them around town and so forth, but just general people and all that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a reputation among other people of your friends who knew him as being somebody who was on the shady side?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I wouldn’t say that the reputation would be on the shady side, but they knew Jack was a manipulator and had been involved in these clubs and there had been some after-hour talk and so forth, but they knew that his background--just like because of mine--where I grew up--you see, it was mentioned even in the article here, it was known as the Bloody 24th Ward, so everything in the way of shades of different colors and hues--that all took place there. Now, whether Jack did any of that here or participated in any of it here, I’m not aware of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have any information at all that people thought he was a professional criminal of any sort?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, there may have been one or two people and I couldn’t no more tell you who they were or what, that possibly mentioned in my presence that Jack Ruby--I wouldn’t say was a criminal, but knew him as an operator and possibly had reference to him as a little bit of a shady operator or something like that or that he might be capable of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before he shot Oswald or after he shot Oswald?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh--yes, yes; that was before. Well, I might say, if you put it that way--I heard comments afterwards, but I didn’t participate in any of the discussions afterwards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever tell you any of his political attitudes--did he ever discuss any of them with you?

Mr. ROSSI. No, not especially; not to me personally, but I would say publicly in a sense, and this goes back a little bit of time, I knew definitely that he leaned towards the Democratic party or at least he had a high respect for President Roosevelt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, just in his talk about him and everything. Of course, I was against Roosevelt and his policies and all, and any time anybody would mention anything about social security or various doles and so forth and other ways of increasing the expenses, or what have you, or any of the things that Roosevelt reforms, I would expound against them, and I know that Jack took Mr. Roosevelt pretty seriously, and would defend him and his policies. He thought he was a great man and a great President, and I thought Roosevelt was a wonderful salesman and orator myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these expressions did you discuss with Jack?

Mr. ROSSI. I--oh, I would say--I didn’t especially discuss them with him, but I would say in general discussions when perhaps he happened to be in a group and somebody was making some comment on the issue of the day and you know how you have a little political talk involved in it usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification a document which consists of two pages. It is a copy of a report that two FBI Agents, Thomas W. Crawford and Clay Zachry had with you on November 25 down at Brownsville. I am going to mark this document on the first page, which is actually No. 112, Joseph Rossi Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, and the second page of this two-page document is numbered page 113, and I am going to hand both pages to you and ask you to read them and tell us whether or not that is an accurate report of what you told the FBI agents in November 1963?

Mr. ROSSI. This is all correct with the exception of the last sentence, in regards to Ruby’s hat--it wasn’t Ruby’s friends that kidded him, but more or less just people that knew him. When Ruby might stop into my place at the coffeeshop or something like that, or any of the old Chicago hoodlums--now, my brother, he won’t appreciate this--he will just about kill me, but we called everybody from our area Chicago hoodlums--where we had grown up around there together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Rossi, let me ask you if you would sign this on the first page and initial it on the second page, and sign it as near the top line and mark it for identification.

Mr. ROSSI. Up here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ROSSI. (Signed instrument referred to.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here. I am sorry we have had so many mixups, but that could not be helped, and you have been very helpful to us.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, that’s all right. Do you want any other opinions?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any others to make?

Mr. ROSSI. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, will you state them--I thought we had exhausted about everything, but I will be glad to hear them.

What else do you have that you think will be useful to us?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, in my own personal opinion--I think it was an impulsive thing all the way around. I wouldn’t say the Dallas people are guilty. It is just one of those things that gets started, you might say, as a joke and becomes an actuality, and then it’s all busted up.

I believe Oswald himself possibly had no intention in the beginning of killing the President or assassinating him, and if I go along with the Morning News I may as well classify it as being suspected of the assassination, and I believe possibly he was more interested in Governor Connally than in the President, but the number of incidents that had taken place prior to Mr. Kennedy’s coming to Dallas showed the somewhat emotional feeling of the people here.

Now, Mr. Johnson was pretty well liked but also pretty well disliked, and he also had a reputation of missing ballot boxes or what have you. The incident that took place while he was here was not a reflection of all the Dallas people here. It was just a group of sort of people that were there and somebody impulsively did something, because I think basically you don’t go there with the idea of spitting at the President or anything like that, or the Senator, at the time.

The same way, when Mr. Stevenson visited Dallas. I believe the woman that was there was just worked up into a pitch along with many in the crowd and why anybody would go to any place and meet any of these people or form a group, I guess it’s all right, but I have seen too much of it, and waving flags and carrying banners, and then you stand there in the front of the line and the next thing you know--she got the urge to pop him on the head, maybe, and she did, but this just built up talk around the Dallas area.

Now, I’ll give you some of the coffeeshop talk that goes on when you are sitting down having a cup of coffee and people are discussing the events and politics of the day and prior to Mr. Kennedy’s arriving here, the general talk then was, “You know what happened to Johnson. You saw what happened to Stevenson, boy, when Jack comes, it’s going to be murder. They are just liable to kill him.”

Now, this was said in a number of times--I would say--without a doubt I heard the remark a hundred times, but just publicly in general--somebody popping off and of course I know that it was all said but nothing meant by it, but still in all we have a certain amount of people who, I won’t say they are not literate enough, but their minds are a little bit warped or they are a little bit more impulsive and we have different institutions that took care of a lot of sick-minded people, but this caused them to think and do a lot of things. I say that subconsciously they are hypnotized with something.

I’m trying to bring out a point here that Ruby and Oswald themselves were in the middle of all this talk, and I would say that Oswald on his job heard quite a bit of this type of talk going on and everything. Ruby knew that in his business dealings during the day and all that, discussed it with friends, either sitting over a cup of coffee, heard the same type of comments--they were just general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you: You were not in Dallas on November 22, 23, or 24?

Mr. ROSSI. No, I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you don’t know what kind of talk there was around here after Oswald was shot or after Oswald was alleged to have shot the President?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes, I do, because it may have been a day or two afterwards--a day or so afterwards that I spoke to my wife and she told me what the general conditions of the Dallas area was, or at least things--but now I know for a fact that down in the valley, even they were talking about this disliking Dallas people, and if you crossed over to the Mexican side, even the Mexicans over there didn’t like Dallas tags and they seemed to know who was out of the country, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, it is your suggestion that this kind of talk had something to do with it?

Mr. ROSSI. People had a fixed idea in their mind about this--that this was all planned, premeditated, and communistic inspired.

After the border was opened between Mexico and the United States, when I crossed over to the Mexican side at Matamoris, I know one or two of the merchants there and in discussing the fact or the incident with this particular merchant, I told him that I knew Jack and I didn’t think that it was Communist inspired or through Cuba or anything and I spoke to him for about 20 minutes, generally speaking, but I could not make that man believe it. The man’s comments to me were, “I don’t care if you slept with the man or anything, as far as I am concerned, I know this was all brought about through Cuba and the Communists and everything.”

He says, “You might know the man, but you may not know him close enough. He may have been a Communist all of his life.”

I says, “Well, he could have been, but just from what I know and when I knew him, I never would have suspected or even thought of it and I still don’t.”

Now, in the newspapers here locally, when I came back to Dallas, there was quite a bit of feeling of animosity about Jack Ruby, so I never made any comments to anybody about my knowing anything or knowing him personally. In other words, I just kept it to myself, and when the trial was going on, I could have gone ahead and offered some testimony on Ruby’s behalf, or on just the general behalf of what I knew, but I stayed away, then, because just as Judge Sarah Hughes said, there is a lot more behind all of this and Dallas was guilty of part of it, but that I didn’t want to stick my neck out and have the people jumping on me, because it would have hurt me businesswise, and what have you.

Emotionally, they were all still quite upset and it wasn’t because of what Jack did. I believe it was because Jack had denied them the privilege of knowing just why Harvey Lee Oswald did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this, of course, is something that is not within our province to speculate about here.

Mr. ROSSI. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Our job is to find out what the facts are, and as to who did what and where and when, and then try to arrive at some conclusions.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, Ruby was very well known by the police. He was a friend to them. Whenever he had the opportunity to be he was a friend to them, because he tried to be ingratiated in their field or area.

I know of one or two little incidents where he would contribute to their welfare funds or what have you and I think then when they had him there at the city hall and they caught him after the shooting, and the remark was made, “You know me, I’m Jack Ruby”; it wasn’t that he wasn’t an important man, but I believe he was trying to say, “You know me, I am Jack Ruby. I am your friend, I don’t hate cops. I was doing this to help you because your hands were tied.”

And I had heard comments made to the effect that many more people said if they had a chance they would get Oswald. I had even heard this comment made in the coffee shops and down in the valley there, that the assassination was set up by Johnson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, as I say, this speculation which we really can’t indulge in but I appreciate your wanting to offer this to us.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I am offering it because I think I have studied it and looked at it and I know it and I feel like I know about it, but I don’t know---I may be completely 100 percent all wet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we will all be able to form a lot better impression of this after we have gathered all the facts and we are able to sit down and inform the people after we have evaluated it, and I know that from what you have said you will probably be very interested in knowing that we are developing these facts and we are going to publish it in--650 pages--we are working toward, but I want to thank you very much for coming here tonight, Mr. Rossi.

Mr. ROSSI. All right. I feel it is a privilege and if I have been of any help--fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It has been a pleasure to have you, and again, we appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

Mr. ROSSI. I guess everybody is sorry it happened--and I am not a Democrat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know there are a lot of people who are, are sorry that it happened.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, if I could go back and go three times and bring him back, because I think he was one of the finest young men we have had, at least, I felt that way, and I felt most of us felt that way and I think Ruby wanted to be somebody and he felt that way--he looked up to the President and thought that he was a fine President, and at any rate that’s all changed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Rossi, for coming down.

Mr. ROSSI. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF NORMAN EARL WRIGHT

The testimony of Norman Earl Wright was taken at 9:10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit before I administer the oath and start to ask you questions about the nature of the proceedings that we are going to have here for the next few minutes.

The Commission that I work for was set up by President Johnson under an Executive order which he issued on November 29 of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

We have been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the President on all the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission has been given authority to promulgate certain rules and regulations. Pursuant to those rules and regulations I have been designated to take your deposition. Our particular purpose in calling you here today, as you probably well would imagine, is to find out what you know about Jack Ruby. But if you have any information about the assassination of President Kennedy or any other matters that we are inquiring into, we would like to have any of that that you can give us.

Let me ask you if you received a letter from the Commission.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the letter is in St. Louis, but I didn’t receive it while I was there. I was on my way when it came to East St. Louis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I should tell you under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to receive written notice from us 3 days before you appear here, and I would ask you at this point if you are willing to go forward without actually having received the letter.

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I spent a lot of money on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about this proceeding before I administer the oath?

Mr. WRIGHT. None whatsoever, because I have been through this with the FBI quite a few times on the west coast, and I imagine it is along similar lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WRIGHT. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to the reporter your full name?

Mr. WRIGHT. My full name is Norman Earl Wright. My stage name is Earl Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?

Mr. WRIGHT. I live at 8820 Bermuda Street, Caseyville, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas in the fall of 1963?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. My family was here. I will explain that. I lived here, but the week of the Friday the President was killed, I opened at the Largo Club in California the night he was killed, on that day, which would be November 22.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you been working in Dallas previous to that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Previously I worked for Jack for over a year. I worked for Abe at the Colony Club. I don’t remember exactly how long. I worked for Barney at the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately before you went to California, who were you working for?

Mr. WRIGHT. Barney Weinstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Theatre Lounge?

Mr. WRIGHT. Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You ceased working for Barney when?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was the Sunday. I don’t know the date, but it was the Sunday before I opened the following Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been the 17th of November? Friday was the 22d.

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I closed on a Sunday and opened out there on a Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have then 4 days in which you were unemployed before Sunday to Friday?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I had left here. I stayed here until Tuesday and left Tuesday and arrived in California Wednesday afternoon, because I was directed by my agent to be there by Wednesday night, which the club only requested that I be in 2 days before opening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back somewhat in time and ask you when it was that you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. WRIGHT. It was in June of 1961 when I came to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to become employed by him?

Mr. WRIGHT. I was employed by an agent out of St. Louis. I got a contract from an agent, Mike Riaff in St. Louis, to come to work for Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, and it was the first time I had met Jack, or the first time I had been in Dallas in about 11 years, I imagine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What actually is it that you do?

Mr. WRIGHT. I am a comic, MC, and I sing and do comedy, and run the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that line of business?

Mr. WRIGHT. Since 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are you now?

Mr. WRIGHT. Thirty-nine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Jack when you started in June of 1961?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was approximately about 13 or 14 months. I don’t really remember the exact length of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to terminate your employment with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the first time I got very ill because I was working 7 days a week consistently, for approximately 6 months, and I lost the hearing in one of my ears and practically lost my voice. He didn’t want to let me go, so I just quit and went back to St. Louis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you work for him again?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I went to Biloxi, Miss., and Jack called me down there and asked me to come back to work for him, and I came back again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it approximately that you came back to work for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was, I would say, approximately 8 weeks after I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Still would have been the latter part of 1962?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him on that occasion?

Mr. WRIGHT. About 5 or 6 months. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him again after that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Off and on. Sometimes as a relief for the MC there, or maybe a week at a time, or 2 weeks at a time, but no more than 2 weeks at a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like you to tell us something about Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the kind of jokes that he permitted to be told in his club.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack--first of all, the first thing he told any MC, including myself or anyone else, was that he did not want anyone to tell any Jewish stories. Later on I realized the fact that he was very self-conscious about many things about him personally, and I imagine that is why I came to this conclusion. But most of the material would be standard material for burlesque houses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what sort of personal things Jack was sensitive about?

Mr. WRIGHT. His hair. His speech.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about his speech?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had a small impediment in his speech that he was quite conscious of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a lisp?

Mr. WRIGHT. Sort of a lisp, and he wore a hat practically all the time outside of the club. He was very conscious of that. And he was very conscious of his weight. He was always going on a diet, or weightlifting, or something, and he was always conscious of the fact that a lot of people thought he was sort of a gay boy. Whether he was, I don’t know personally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there--I take it by “gay boy,” you mean that he was a homosexual?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about him that gave that impression?

Mr. WRIGHT. I don’t know. He never impressed me that way, but he himself thought that people thought he was that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard anyone say that they thought he was a homosexual?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not personally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Jack mention this to you?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, in a joking manner. As I remember, one time someone gave him a cigar or something, and he put it in his mouth and lit it and said to me, “I don’t look gay now, do I?” It was Jack’s attitude toward people that I imagine some people might have thought he was that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more explicit about his attitude toward people?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he seemed, and I imagine in the eyes of most people, to go out generally with more men than women. But there were more women that came to the club to see Jack than men. George Senator is about the only guy that I know that he ran around with who was his roommate, and Ralph Paul, who was one of his partners. But other than that----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Carousel Club frequented, to your knowledge, by homosexuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there clubs in Dallas which are hangouts for homosexuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack object to any sort of religious jokes other than Jewish jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge. He specifically made a statement that he didn’t want any Jewish stories at all told, whether or not they were jokes or just stories or anything about Jewish people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in his conversation with you or his behavior that suggested other things concerning his attitude about being a Jew?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to my knowledge, because I worked for just about every club. He was a typical club owner, but an odd one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had worked for the two Weinsteins, and I take it they are both Jewish?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have the same attitude toward Jewish jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; very few Jewish people do have. In fact, I worked for a lot of Jewish people, and Jack is the only Jewish owner of any club that ever told me that or has ever told any MC that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you every been in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was over there once. George fixed dinner, and I don’t know, there were a bunch of kids from the club, and we all went over one night after closing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing any books in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall talking with him about any books that he had been reading?

Mr. WRIGHT. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did he ever mention to you that he was reading any books about the Jewish people such as Exodus by Uris?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate that he didn’t approve of Catholic jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any limitation on the sexual jokes that might be told?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, yes. There is a standard that I think all MC’s with quality carry, and Jack, operating as an operator here in Dallas, realized that you can only go so far, and if you go over further, you only end up hurting yourself anyway. He maintained as good an operation as anyone else in town, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever express any views on the political jokes that you might have told?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you have any occasion to talk with him about President Kennedy?

Mr. WRIGHT. I imagine once or twice he mentioned the fact that he admired President Kennedy quite a bit and had a great deal of admiration for him and what he was trying to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any specific recollection of such a conversation?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not specifically; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationships did he have with his employees?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, with Jack, it was an off and on relationship. He could be smiling and joking with you one moment, and then be mad and ready to throw you out of his club the next. He was a very unpredictable man when it came to relationship between employees and boss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was his employee turnover? What success did he have in keeping people?

Mr. WRIGHT. He had very good success in keeping people. Jack was the type of person that you liked and disliked, and how you can analyze this, I don’t know. But with all his faults, the way he did things, you still liked the man, and at the same time he could make you dislike him just like that [snapping fingers], you know, on the spur of the moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your experience that once he hired somebody, that that person stayed with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Pretty much so. I know the length of time I worked with Jack, and even after I left Jack, most of the employees that were there when I came there and came there after I was there, were still there when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this include the dancers?

Mr. WRIGHT. Most of the dancers, and the band was there for the year and a half after I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude toward his competitors, the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. He thought they were out to close him up. Neither Abe nor Barney were worried too much about Jack, but Jack worried all the time about them. He tried to outdo them or capitalize on any publicity that might bring people from their club to his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that they did which indicated to Jack that they were trying to close him up?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing. Just Jack’s own mind and the way he thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did he attempt to do to attract people from their club to his club?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, trying to put in different ads. In fact, he had a billboard made about his club and some of the pictures of the acts in the club put in the cleaners underneath Abe’s club and things of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Enquire Shine & Press Shop?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is right below Abe’s club and each night the guy would stick it in the window and it advertised Jack’s club, which was down on the other side of the parking lot from Abe’s club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack use amateur strippers in his shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; they all do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall that there came a time when Jack felt that he wasn’t being permitted to use the amateurs and the Weinsteins were?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack fought the battle. First of all, Jack didn’t like to put out the money that Abe and Barney were putting out, because Abe and Barney would use on their amateur shows, which is held once a week in each club, they would use on the average, if they had the girls, maybe five or six girls, which would cost them anywhere from $10 to $15 a girl. Jack felt that that was too much money to put out, so he would, therefore, use three or four girls. But in the meantime, he was trying to get the union to stop amateur shows altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the union have any sort of rule against amateur shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. They did and they didn’t. We never actually found out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was ambiguous about the rules which they had in this respect?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, our constitution says that no professional entertainer is to work with an amateur entertainer. This was the primary rule that Jack was basing his complaint on, which I and most of the entertainers at the time agreed upon. But you must work in this business, and therefore, Barney and Abe, well, especially Barney, started the amateur shows, I think about 13 years ago, and he has put a lot of people in business as far as dancers go, and he has put a lot of people to work. I was on the local board at the time, and we had memos from the west coast and New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this the local board of the American Guild of Variety Artists?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is the local executive board. We were sent memos to the branch managers that at one time the amateur shows were to cease, or these people were to join the union and then they could work. Well, this was complied with, and then not long after that, the people that were head of the various regional offices were fired and we had new memos. So actually, we never found out whether the whole thing is still legal or illegal, but a lot of the kids that were amateurs joined the union, and some of them still belong to the union.

But I imagine some of them don’t. I don’t know for sure, because I quit the board because of the fact that we got one memo that said one thing, and another memo that would contradict the memo before, so it got to be a confusing situation altogether. When I got out in California, I went to see Mazzie, who, when I left Dallas, was the west coast regional director of AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. M-a-z-z-i-e?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well he was west regional director. But when I got to California, I went up to see him to talk to him about what was going on in Dallas. He had been fired and Bobby Faye in New York had been fired. They went into an interim committee that took care of the union until recently. I understand they had elections, and I forget the gentleman, I don’t even know the guy that is head of the thing. I haven’t bothered to look to see.

See, our union is not run like most unions. AGVA is run by the secretary of the union, and then you take people like Joey Adams who was president. It is an honorary thing. Then you have the vice presidents and so forth. But the main part of the union is run by the members of the national board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you quit the local board here in Dallas?

Mr. WRIGHT. It was about a month before I left town, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the local board, did Jack come to you about his problems with the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. He went to everybody on the board about his problems.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come to you?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that you were helping him or not?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, when I left town--in fact, the main reason, one of the reasons that I resigned from the board was the fact Jack thought after I had gone to work for Barney and Abe after leaving him, that I was against him, and whatever happened to the board, I was doing for the benefit of Barney and Abe. In fact, last time I saw Jack before I left town, he refused to let me in his club because he said I was with his competitors against him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that particular incident. How did you happen to go to Jack’s club that night?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I was working at the Theatre Lounge, and the Theatre Lounge only does three shows a night, and Jack was doing a continuous show. I had about a 20- or 25-minute break, so I walked over to see Wally Weston, who was working there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t come over to see Jack?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I went over to see Jack or Wally, whoever was there. No one specifically. All three clubs are within half a block of each other, and you walk around between shows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you get into the club?

Mr. WRIGHT. I got to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he asked me to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not he had a gun with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he asked anybody to go get a gun when you came up, or when he saw you coming up?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten you in any way?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just asked me to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an argument with him there?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just said, “I don’t want you in my club. You are against me.” I said, “Fine.” So I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever asked you to do anything for him in connection with his complaint about the amateur strippers?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had asked to bring up at board meetings the reason why it hadn’t been cut out, because of his complaint. In fact, I believe he called Bobby Faye in New York several times, and called Mazzie in California several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was any effort made by the people who were in charge of AGVA to get the Weinsteins to stop using the amateurs in their shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said, we got memos to one effect that they were either to stop or the kids were to join the union, and then most of the kids joined the union, and in that way it went from $10 or $15 per girl to $35; which is our minimum that any act can receive as long as they are carrying a card. $35 per performance or per show, which would be one performance of the amateurs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack continuing to use amateur dancers during this period that he was complaining about the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. Oh, yes; he wasn’t about to cut it out. Sometimes he would use one or two girls instead of using four or five on something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise also that he was using amateurs?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Ruby discuss any political idea or political movements?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you ever hear him talk about H. L. Hunt?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby with any political literature of any sort?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about what his aspirations were?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some people have mentioned that Jack sort of admired what he called “class.” Do you ever recall that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Jack always wanted to be Mr. Big. He felt that he should be the top nightclub owner and the top boss in town, and he tried to capitalize on any type of publicity he could to promote his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider it unusual that Jack Ruby should not have attended the Presidential motorcade, and yet at the same time was very upset over the assassination?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said before, Jack was a peculiar man. To analyze his thinking within a period of an hour, would take a mass of brains to do so, because he never actually--Jack did things like this, where other people would think them out [snapping fingers].

I have seen him argue and get mad with somebody for no reason at all, just because of what they said or the way they acted just hit him the wrong way. And to say why he would do this and not do this, I couldn’t say. As long as I knew him, he still mystified me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever with Jack when he had a gun with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; he carried a gun in a bank bag on the seat of his car when he went to the bank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it his custom to carry the gun in his pocket?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to drive Jack’s automobile?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack had any particular practice concerning where he kept his car keys?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I imagine in his pocket because I know he kept a lot of his money from the night’s receipts. He put his money--a lot of the time I have seen him put his money in the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay working for Jack Ruby when you worked for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; in fact, we started her off as a professional entertainer when I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time that you worked for him that she started?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well, she did a couple of amateur shows, and then he put her to work as a regular dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But she had worked for him then, I take it, since sometime in 1961?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True, was she working for Jack when you worked for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, she came later on. I worked with Tammi, I don’t know exactly what month, but I have worked with her. I worked there with Millie Perelle, and worked there with Lee Sharon. I was trying to think of the girl that was there when I first came there. She is quite a good dancer. I can’t remember her name. But Kathy Kay, Jack put into the business, as far as a professional dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time the President was shot, was Kathy Kay a dancer who had worked for Jack the longest of any of the ones he had?

Mr. WRIGHT. I believe so, to my best knowledge, because you got to understand I was in and out of town a lot of times, too, and I don’t know whether the girls were there. I know she was there most of the time when I came back into Dallas, so I just assumed that she had been there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how Little Lynn happened to leave the employ of the Weinsteins and go to work for Jack?

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no idea; because I was not working for Jack at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn working for the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was working for Barney when she came to work for Barney, and I believe, I am not quite sure, I know she didn’t show up for 2 or 3 nights or something, or didn’t come to work, and didn’t call or anything, and Barney fired her. I assume that is the reason she went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for identification as Norman E. Wright Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This is a document that consists of three pages numbered at the bottom as 556, 557, and 558. It purports to be a copy of an interview report which was prepared by FBI Agent Lloyd D. Johnson, and Agent Aldo A. Giannechhini, after they had an interview with you on November 26.

Look this over and read it carefully and tell me if it accurately records what you told them on the 26th of November.

Mr. WRIGHT (after reading). I think that is pretty much what I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are satisfied that this is an accurate report of what you said?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me ask you to sign it on the first page near where I have marked it.

Mr. WRIGHT (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a final question, let me ask you, Mr. Wright, is there anything that you can think of that you know about Jack Ruby or know about the activities of November 22, 23, and 24, that might be helpful to the Commission that we haven’t covered?

Mr. WRIGHT. If I did, I would be glad to tell you, but being in Los Angeles during the whole time and not getting back to Dallas until after the middle of January, I have no more knowledge than what I have already stated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any information or heard anything which you think might be reliable about how Jack Ruby got into the basement of the police department on the 24th?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t. But I do believe that the way the--where the source came from, I have no idea, but I did hear that Sheriff Decker sent a car and a wagon, I believe, to pick Oswald up at 2 o’clock in the morning, and Chief Curry said that he had promised the news media that he would bring Oswald down at 11 that morning. Actually, this is hearsay, as far as I am concerned, but I have heard that.

The only other thing that I believe, in my own opinion, the police department is just as much to blame as Jack in a roundabout way, because there was no reason in the world, with all the police they had, for Jack to walk directly straight through that many people and walk up to a man and shoot him. I personally believe that they shared at least 50 percent of the blame.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I appreciate your frankness.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, that’s the only way I can be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right and I appreciate your coming here today. You have indicated previously that this did interfere with a prospect for a job that you had, so the Commission appreciates anybody who is willing to give us the time under circumstances like that. I have no more questions, and if you have no more questions----

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no more questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL LEE MOORE (KNIGHT)

The testimony of Russell Lee Moore was taken on July 23, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Generally our practice, before we swear the witness in and begin to take testimony, is to give you a little explanation of what we are trying to do here, give you some background on the investigation.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, issued on November 29, and a subsequent joint resolution of Congress.

Now, under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission is instructed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We are particularly interested in your testimony today because of your acquaintanceship with Jack Ruby. My questions will be directed along that line.

If you have any information at all that would bear on the assassination of President Kennedy, why, we would like to have that also.

Now, the Commission has promulgated a series of rules and regulations, and under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I am designated to take your testimony.

There is also a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to have a 3-day written notice before he appears for testimony. I think the first thing I will ask you, you did get a letter from us 3 days before you showed up here?

Mr. MOORE. Well, it was Tuesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I will ask you if you are willing to waive the written notice of the deposition.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the general nature of the testimony that will be taken here this afternoon before I get started?

Mr. MOORE. No. I have some things that I can add after your questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Very good. Let me ask you then if you will raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOORE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. MOORE. Russell Moore, known as Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a middle name?

Mr. MOORE. Lee, Russell Lee Moore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you prefer to have this deposition designated? Shall I address you as Mr. Moore or shall I call you Mr. Knight?

Mr. MOORE. I think Mr. Knight because this is my air name, Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Knight?

Mr. KNIGHT. Auburn Heights, Mich.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And will you give us your full address?

Mr. KNIGHT. 645 Auburn Heights, Mich.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in Michigan?

Mr. KNIGHT. Just about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in Dallas before that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?

Mr. KNIGHT. Two boys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to work in Dallas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. The last of February 1960.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your occupation then?

Mr. KNIGHT. Radio announcer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you work for?

Mr. KNIGHT. KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. From that time until about a month ago which would be 1964, first of June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you now employed as a radio announcer?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you with in Detroit?

Mr. KNIGHT. WXYZ, ABC.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in a general way what your duties were as a radio announcer at KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Personality and playing records. In other words, a personality radio show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the news department?

Mr. KNIGHT. I helped out occasionally in the news department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a staff of reporters employed by KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was in charge of the news department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Joe Long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many reporters did he have under him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. Sometimes four but at the present time three.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall who those people were on November 22?

Mr. KNIGHT. November 22? One was Glenn Duncan, Gary DeLaune, and Roy Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working in Dallas, did you have occasion to meet Jack Ruby before November 22, 1963?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us your best recollection of when it was that you first met Ruby.

Mr. KNIGHT. I would say, I can’t pinpoint the date, but about, I guess about a year or so before the assassination. I met him at a place called the Cotton Bowling Palace. It’s a place where people congregate that work late, and I worked till midnight. I would stop there on the way home for a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that episode.

Mr. KNIGHT. We were just all sitting around the table as far as I remember, and somebody mentioned Jack Ruby’s name, the owner of the Carousel. And there were other friends of Ruby with him at the time but I don’t recall their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. But it was of such a menial nature I wouldn’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him from time to time after that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I saw him at this establishment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw him between the time you first met him and November 22?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, no way again of being sure. I would say probably 7, 8, 9, 10 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever visit any of his clubs?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was down at his Carousel Club with my wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, let’s see. At least 9, 8 months; 8 or 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to talk with him in connection with your duties at KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he had, he was up at the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times did you see him at the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Only about twice. He had some commercials advertising his club that run on my show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he run these commercials to your recollection?

Mr. KNIGHT. About a week; just about a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was that before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. It was in that same area, about 9 or 10 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of conversation did you have with him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing other than he had the usual pitch, do a good job on these commercials, so forth and so on, and he at times would call me at the station at night, asking how we are coming along, to add this or put this in here. Of course, I couldn’t do that but he did call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise on any other radio stations that you know of?

Mr. KNIGHT. I am sure he did but not at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it unusual for a nightclub operator such as Ruby who is running a striptease club to be advertising on the radio?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, not if it’s--no. No. Because several other places of the same nature advertise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about promoting his twistboards over the radio?

Mr. KNIGHT. Twistboards?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotion other than his clubs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you at any time a membership card or say that he was going to make you a member of the Carousel Club?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; because it was an open club anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time that President Kennedy was killed?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was home, asleep, at my address on Barnsbridge Road in Dallas, taking a nap that afternoon, and my wife was in Corpus Christi. And she heard about it before I did and she called me on the phone and told me the original news. That’s the way I heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that the President had been shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the first thing I did was turn on the radio. Then I finished with--what would you do? I paced the floor and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to trace where you went.

Mr. KNIGHT. I didn’t go to any place at that time because I didn’t have to go to work till 7. My shift was 7 till midnight. My wife and kids were down in Corpus Christi visiting her mother. I was there by myself. So I just stayed there at my home on Barnsbridge until I went to work that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the hours that you were to work that particular night?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as every night, 7 to midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack Ruby between 7 and midnight?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some occasion to have contact with him afterward?

Mr. KNIGHT. I talked to him after midnight; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you first had occasion to talk with him.

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. May I do it my own----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I got through my shift at midnight. We were trying to get an interview with District Attorney Wade for the following morning’s newscast. By that time the newsmen had been up all day and it was 1 a.m. in the morning and they had gone home with the exception of Glenn Duncan who was covering the news from the post at the station and could not leave the radio station. So he told me to go to the courthouse and if I could get a hold of Wade--Wade had called and said he had granted his last interview of the evening--but he said if you get over there right fast you might get him. And the courthouse was only three blocks from our radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan told you a call had been made?

Mr. KNIGHT. Duncan I think had actually talked to Wade on the air about 20 minutes or so but didn’t get what he wanted and didn’t get it on tape for the early morning newscast. In other words, he wanted me to go over and get another interview with a special little tape recorder for the early morning newscast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you went over there, did Duncan tell you anything about having talked to Jack Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Ruby had called but this is later on in the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead. Then tell us what happened.

Mr. KNIGHT. I went over to the courthouse, arriving there approximately 1 a.m. It could be 10 before, 10 after, 15 after. I didn’t get to see Wade. I looked for him and I couldn’t find him, went to the second floor, came back, down to the main floor. There on the main floor I encountered Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was he on the main floor?

Mr. KNIGHT. He was near the entrance and I was getting ready to leave and he was hanging around the entrance talking to other people, and he saw me and recognized me. And I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you and ask you, by the main floor do you mean the floor on which the assembly room and records room are located, or do you mean the floor above that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I mean the main entrance, right near the entrance right off the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. As you walk in off the street you can either walk up or down but you can’t walk straight into the police department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Where you walk up the steps and walk in. And he was about 10 feet up, 10 feet back up the steps or so, talking to some people just generally milling around that I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. KNIGHT. I think, I am sure this is it. He overheard me ask where Wade was and then he said, “I’ll show you.” So I said, “Okay.” Then we went down in the basement. Now, I had never met Henry Wade before. Of course, I had heard of him. We went to the basement. Jack Ruby pointed out Henry Wade. Wade at that time was standing by himself, had just got through with an interview with another reporter. Wade pointed out, or Ruby pointed out Wade, and he told Henry Wade who I was and Wade’s reaction was, “Oh, the Weird Beard,” which I am known on radio. “The Weird Beard, my kids listen to you,” or something to that effect all the time. Ruby again spoke up before I had a chance to say anything and asked if he would grant an interview with me. Wade said, “Of course.” Now, a point that I don’t think I--on the phone they told me to make some notes, from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. And I don’t think I have told this point to the FBI or anybody before. I don’t think. I’m not sure. Ruby was insistent that I ask Wade if Oswald were insane. And he asked that, he told me to ask him that question at least twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you this? When you were up on the main floor or----

Mr. KNIGHT. On the way down. On the way down because I told him I wanted an interview and so forth and this slipped out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response to Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. At the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Negative. I wondered what he was doing there but it wasn’t, I couldn’t question, I mean I didn’t know because there were a lot of people milling around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I had in mind, when Ruby said to you “Ask him if Oswald is insane,” did you have any response to Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. “Okay,” I said, “That’s a point well taken,” or something to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby have any other things he wanted you to ask?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; that was the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you saw Wade, had Ruby said anything to you about the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not at that time; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had any discussion with him about anything other than the interview with Henry Wade up to that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing of significance; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had closed his clubs at that point, that you recall?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t mention his clubs at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw Ruby up on the main floor, do you recall who he was with?

Mr. KNIGHT. He was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing, actually standing alone some place?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, I had the impression he had been talking because there were other people around, but at the time I did see him, on the first visual contact, he was standing by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how he was dressed on that day?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I--it’s silly. It’s either a brown suit or a blue coat and I couldn’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead then, pick it up from where you were.

Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I did interview Wade. I did ask him a question about insanity and he said--I have the tape some place but I don’t know where it is. I looked for it, the interview itself, and I couldn’t find it. But the essence of the interview, he said that Oswald, he was a, he was not insane, something like it was premeditated or so forth and so on. That was the gist of the interview.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby stand by while that interview took place?

Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know, if he were in listening distance or not, because I wasn’t paying any attention to Ruby while Wade and I had the interview. But when I got through with the interview he was over say 15, 20 feet. He must have been talking to other reporters and so forth in the vicinity.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your interview with Wade last?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, about 30 seconds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished interviewing Wade?

Mr. KNIGHT. It took, the interview, either 30 seconds or a minute. I took the interview on the tape recorder, started out of the courthouse building. As I say, Ruby cornered me again, saying that he--and we walked up to the best of my knowledge, we walked up back to the main entrance. He said he had sandwiches and soft drinks for the personnel over at our station, KLIF, and offered me a ride back to the station. But since it was so close I did not ride back to the station with him. And I walked back to the station and evidently he went to his car from this point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, three or four blocks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what direction?

Mr. KNIGHT. As you go out of the courthouse, the station would be to the left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be south?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Across Commerce Street?

Mr. KNIGHT. It would be toward the Central Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Away from downtown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What intersection would it be?

Mr. KNIGHT. Jackson at Central Expressway. Now, I guess Ruby’s car was down this way or some place because he went over in a different direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you point that way you can’t tell.

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I went left and he went right. Is that all right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. That would be--you walked off onto Commerce Street and you turned left towards Central Expressway, and your recollection is that Ruby turned right toward the center of town?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. KNIGHT. I got back to the station. I was there giving the interview to Duncan who listened to it, we decided to use it on the morning’s newscast, when Ruby--I guess this must have been, by this time, a quarter till two, approximately--showed up again at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk to the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Four minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later did you next hear from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, I guess 20 minutes, time elapsed, 15, 20 minutes. It wasn’t too long but at least that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you when you first heard from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was again, to the best of my knowledge it was out in the hall from the newsroom. I was standing with Glenn Duncan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody walk back with you to the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I didn’t. But Ruby had called Duncan earlier asking if it would be all right if he did deliver sandwiches and soft drinks to the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you say the next thing you heard from Ruby. Now, how did you hear from him? Did he proceed to walk right in?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the door was evidently open and it had been open because we had newsmen going in and out. We had, there was a guy from New York City that phoned in his reports from the radio station, a station called WNEW.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ike Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Pappas before that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; but Pappas met Ruby there at that same time period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby came up to the newsroom where you were talking with Duncan?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the sandwiches with him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was carrying them in a box of some sort?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; it was in a sack. And the drinks, I thought it was unusual, he had celery juice or some kind of soft drinks with celery in it and it was an unusual drink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the bottle that was unusual?

Mr. KNIGHT. The bottle? It wasn’t the normal soda pop bottle. I mean I couldn’t describe it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that it was a bottle that had a gold covering on it?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that sounds to be it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And did you have some conversation with him while Duncan was present at that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?

Mr. KNIGHT. We talked about generalities which I, if I remembered I would say it. But evidently at this time he had seen Oswald in person because he said Oswald was a goodlooking guy, said he looked like Paul Newman. These were his words. Paul Newman, the movie star. At the time I didn’t question where he had seen Oswald. I am sure that same day at the police station because he had been hanging around and I think he was there when they brought him in, on the outside looking in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When they brought him in where? The police station?

Mr. KNIGHT. This is a surmise on my part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any evidence of this?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; no. But he said he did look like, and Ruby’s face, there was no bitterness against the man. Of course, there was, but I mean he said it kind of, “Why, he looks like a movie star.” That’s about the only thing that I can remember other than just how sad the situation was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby commenting on how sad the situation was?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your conversation up there last while Ruby was present?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as I say, this was 1:45 approximately, it could have been 1:50. We had--or 1:45 I’ll say. We had a newscast at 1:50. Actually on the hour at 2 o’clock. So I guess about 10 minutes before the newscast. And I went on the newscast. Not with the tape I did over at the courthouse with Mr. Wade, but I went on with my reactions to the interview with Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember mentioning Ruby’s name in that newscast?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I said, “Through a tip from a local nightclub owner I asked Mr. Wade the question of Oswald’s insanity.” And that’s the way I had phrased it. I didn’t mention his name on the newscast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the studio after the newscast?

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. The newscast lasted 5 minutes, maybe a little longer, and we stayed around and talked for I guess 10, 15 minutes. And some time in this period this Pappas showed up at the station and asked if he could use our facilities and call New York City.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby there when Pappas arrived?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether Pappas arrived before your newscast or after your newscast?

Mr. KNIGHT. It was after the newscast. In fact, I think--again this is all so hazy--I started out when Pappas was coming up the stairs, and he asked if he could use the facilities, and where could he get a phone. Since he was a fellow newsman, I pointed out the phone where he could use it and walked out. Ruby, of course, was still around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Pappas come back in and talk with you later?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; again, Pappas ate one of Ruby’s sandwiches and drank one of his soft drinks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember discussing Pappas’ radio market, the advertising market in New York?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t think I did. I maybe asked him how he was doing and how a certain personality, Pete Myers, was doing, that worked for NEW, New York City rather, and that. I don’t think I discussed advertising.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication that Pappas recognized Ruby at that time or that Ruby recognized Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; as far as I know they were complete strangers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they talk? Was Ruby present during your conversation with Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby give Pappas a card for his club at that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not at this point, but I think Pappas had a card but he had gotten it earlier.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that you think that happened?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I don’t remember Ruby giving him a card actually up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you learned somewhere along the line that Pappas did have a card?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I vaguely remember Pappas having the card.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am really trying to again probe your recollection as to whether you actually have a recollection that the card was made known to you at that time, that Pappas had a card, or whether you subsequently learned that Pappas got a card and sort of inferred it was earlier?

Mr. KNIGHT. I think that Pappas mentioned that he had gotten the card earlier in the day. Maybe Ruby at the time offered him one but I don’t, that’s still hazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby at the time he was up there at the radio station do anything which to you would indicate that he was trying to promote his clubs at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any pushing in that area?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; a comment since you made that. I guess in my subconscious I didn’t think of that because he had always pushed before, but this seemed to be a complete--no talk about his business at all. In fact I didn’t even know, he didn’t even tell me that he had closed the clubs. He might have but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation that he might have had concerning the Bernard Weissman ad which appeared in the Dallas Morning News on the 22d of November? Do you know what ad I am talking about?

Mr. KNIGHT. To impeach Earl Warren?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not impeach Earl Warren. It was a black-bordered advertisement that addressed a series of questions to President Kennedy.

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he did mention this, but at the time I wasn’t familiar with it myself and he didn’t mention any names. In fact, the point I remember, in the back of my mind, but how he brought it up or the names I don’t remember. Now, I have a question for you, or not a question but another thing along this line that happened. He happened to call me--Ruby--Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me--I want to take this chronologically.

Mr. KNIGHT. That’s what I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m glad you mentioned it. Did he say anything to you Friday night or through Saturday morning which would indicate that he had some idea that there was an effort being made to discredit the Jews, that the assassination was somehow a part of an effort to discredit the Jews?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no; no mention was made of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did mention this unfortunate advertisement in the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. KNIGHT. I might be mixed up on the time, but it might have been that night or it might have been that brief 15-, 20-second call that I had with him on Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did--your group up there I take it broke up, your session broke up, and you and Jack or some of the other people decided to leave--how did that happen?

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. Now, to me this is the most important part. Jack Ruby and I walked out of the station, actually not out but say out on the landing in front of the steps, still in the station but down the hall. I remember him saying like, “Russ, you are a pretty square guy. I want to give you something.” So we, now again, either he had them in his pocket or he walked out to his car, but he had his car parked right at the steps of the station where it would be no problem to get this, a speech called Heroism from H. L. Hunt’s Life Line. Now, may I read this to you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, you may.

Mr. KNIGHT. This time segment, I left about 2:15 to 2:30 after the newscast at 2. Ruby gave me a speech from Life Line called Heroism. To my knowledge he talked about radicals in Dallas at that time but he didn’t mention any names. He said he looked like Paul Newman, good-looking guy. Gave me entire speech of Life Line. Here’s something I didn’t realize until just the last week or so. The speech he gave me of Life Line was the speech in its entirety, the speech, the body of the speech plus the commercials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that significant to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, okay. I just realized the speech--the speech itself is what I told the FBI. I didn’t tell them about the entire body of the content. I didn’t realize that. I just thought it was all together. The question in my mind, if you would write, and I’m supposing this from being in the broadcasting business, if you would write to a commercial broadcast house for the contents of a speech, which you could do, I doubt very seriously they would send you the entire thing plus the commercials and two pages of Hunt products, which was all included. It was strictly like it, and again this is my observation, like it had been taken from a stations’ files that had Life Line. And what he had was not sent out by Life Line if he wrote in to order the speech. Why would they send the commercials and et cetera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you bring that copy with you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Now, again, in our moving to Detroit, we have looked and looked and turned our house upside down. That was something I wanted to keep. But I can’t find it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask you if you do come across it some time, we would very much like to see it. And, of course, all we would want to do is make a copy of it ourselves.

Mr. KNIGHT. You could get a copy of it yourself from the Hunt organization.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps we can’t get the commercials. I would like to see the item you described. Are you under the impression that this is not the thing that would be sent out by Life Line?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I wouldn’t see why they would send the commercials out. Maybe they do, but again I don’t know. And another point that hit my mind along these lines, maybe, where would he obtain such a copy of this? Who would give it to him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, are you familiar with the Dallas State Fair? Did you attend the Dallas State Fair?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at the Dallas State Fair that H. L. Hunt had a booth?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the literature that was distributed at that booth?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. The copy that he gave me of this was rather soiled, but I don’t know if it was soiled with use or maybe somebody could have given it to him just lately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Soiled in a manner that indicated that somebody had read it, or that it had just been neglected?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, that it had been folded up and read. It was a new piece of paper. It had been folded and unfolded and folded and unfolded and read.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ruby say about Life Line?

Mr. KNIGHT. Again this is strange, and I don’t know why he should pick me to give this to but he said, “You seem like a square guy, why don’t you look this over and read it?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate any opinion as to his approval or disapproval as to the contents of that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. At the time--it struck me as kind of odd when I look back on it--at the time I couldn’t care less. But when I look back on it it did strike me as rather odd because he seemed to have no opinion, and I couldn’t figure why he gave me the copy of the speech if he believed it. I thought, my first impression was that he thought this was the form of radicalism that was sort of mumbled and talked about a little bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about radicalism?

Mr. KNIGHT. This is a word I use. I don’t think he even mentioned radical. But he did mention along with it a word which I can’t recall in this Saturday night conversation. I don’t think he used the word radical but I can’t think what he used, but we did discuss that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he talking about people who were of the John Birch Society character, the rightwing radicals, or was he talking about the Lee Harvey Oswald type radicals?

Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate approval or disapproval of radicals?

Mr. KNIGHT. Disapproval.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the conversation indicate in any way that he thought there might be any connection between what you are calling radicalism in Dallas and the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you be a little more explicit on what you think, what you recall of this discussion about radicalism, what it consisted of?

Mr. KNIGHT. Ruby seemed, he had the speech but he didn’t seem to be cognizant fully of what the speech was or actually what side that he stood on. Again he just mentioned, and I know this is rather ambiguous, I’m just kind of confused.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KNIGHT. But he did mention a group in Dallas that hated President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention this group by name?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; just mentioned like there is an element here that hates, that hated Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did he indicate that he had any specific people in mind?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; in fact I asked him. I saw the copy of Hunt and his Life Line called Heroism, and myself, I have always thought, I think Hunt is a definite radical. I think he’s about halfway out of it in common terms. And I mentioned to him, I said, I think now again, I think I said, “Do you mean the Hunts?” And he didn’t reply either yes or no, just kind of, because I don’t know if he even knew the term, Hunt or not. I’m sure he did but he didn’t seem to recollect it, the name, or any more about it when I brought it up. That was late at night and I was tired.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention any other names?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; Hunt was the name that came to my mind, Life Line, especially after he gave me the speech.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station in Dallas has a Life Line broadcast?

Mr. KNIGHT. KLRD; I think, KLRD.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people in the news department of KLRD?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not on a personal basis. I have talked with them maybe twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall some of the names of the people in that department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Frank Gleiber in sports. He doubles up in sports and news. There’s a guy that was the head of the “After” Union down there. He was head of the news department. Ray somebody; I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything in your experience suggest anything to you about why Ruby would have picked up such an advertisement in the first place?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; one more comment on my part. I mentioned to the FBI and too, I was actually subpenaed for the trial by Belli, Ruby’s lawyer, which I didn’t understand, which to me, the speech “Heroism,” the people I told about it just seemed to kind of, OK, but no point was, I mean I was not asked to recall anything or really talk about it. They seemed to not think it was a very important part. And I thought it was. It seemed to me very important. But I did mention it, mentioned as much as I recall, but they didn’t seem to be interested in it and I thought they knew more about----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby say anything to you which would indicate whether or not he had actually read the radio script?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; but he told me to read it, and evidently he had read it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you which would indicate what his feeling was about the substance of that radio script?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; there again is the hazy part. He seemed to be giving it to me for me to read it just to get my impressions of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any impression that he was looking for you to tell him whether he should agree or disagree with the content?

Mr. KNIGHT. That is a possibility.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that might indicate that to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, for the simple matter of him not being yes or no about it. He just like, here’s the speech, read it. He didn’t seem to have any, although at the time I assumed that--I feel like I’m talking in circles--I assume that he did or had read it and did not agree with this theory that was portrayed in the copy of “Heroism” but wanted to see what my reaction to it would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think he didn’t agree with it?

Mr. KNIGHT. See, I’m speculating; I don’t know. That was my first reaction. And then we just broke up after that. I went my way and in fact I think I went back up to the station and he went out to his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ike Pappas left at the time you walked out?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I think Pappas was still there when I left. I’m sure he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did anybody else come up to the station with Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do anything else that night?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I went straight home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the next day?

Mr. KNIGHT. The next day? Well, let me see. I think I slept; I went home and took myself something to eat, it must have been 4:30 or 5 that morning, and went to bed and didn’t get up until--I had received a call at 9 o’clock that morning from a news friend of mine from Kansas City, and I was up, maybe just about a minute; I went back to sleep and didn’t wake up until 3 or 4 that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. KNIGHT. Turned on television; laid around the house. I have to go in at 6 on Saturday night, 6 to midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby called you by the time you went to the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t call me at the house. I guess he didn’t even know my number. So I got to the station about 6. And, of course, we had, had gone, we were top 40 so to speak, play the hit records. We were playing albums. And I didn’t have anything to do except cut in with the station breaks and news items that pertained to the situation. And I guess it was between 6 and 8 sometime, I didn’t pinpoint it. Ruby called and wanted to talk to me. He called the newsroom and wanted to talk to me. So I talked to him and I got on the phone, right when I got on the phone a break was coming after the record, and I said, “I have to go, I can’t talk.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Station break was coming?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me; I’m trying to pinpoint the time here before you get into it. Is it a quarter-hour station break or hour?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; half-hour, on the hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would have been approximately on the half-hour or hour when he called you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Approximately; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already been there some time?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it would have had, it couldn’t have been before the 6:30 station break?

Mr. KNIGHT. Probably between the 7 and 8:30. But now I couldn’t, I have no way, I couldn’t even make, I’m not even going to make a statement of that. I wouldn’t even know because I forgot all about it right after I hung up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say probably because it seems to you a substantial amount of time had elapsed, or do you have some other particular reference?

Mr. KNIGHT. A 6-hour shift is a long shift to go on the air. It seems I’d been there listening to the music about an hour. It seems like I had just gotten into the shift. Not quite the halfway point. About a third into it when he called. I only remember two things. Once again, “Russ, you are a square guy.” I don’t know why he would say that. This is the way he talked. He seemed to be impressed by anybody who did something like in radio, movies, television, so forth and so on. He mentioned, he asked me one question. Again we only talked 20, 30 seconds because at the end of that 20, 30 seconds, I said, “Jack, I’ve got to go because” so forth and so on. I didn’t particularly want to talk anyway. So he said, which seems to me now, and again this is just--I didn’t recollect this until lately. I should have--he asked me who Earl Warren was, which seemed funny. You would think a man would know who Earl Warren was. But that was his question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about having any photographs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; not to me, although I did read in the paper later where it said that, but not to me personally. But I thought it was funny he asked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any possibility that this telephone call could have been made to you at home rather than at the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you on a private line of any sort, or did he have to go through a switchboard to get you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, no. Well, the switchboard would have been closed. We have two news lines which are supposed to be private but everybody knows them. Even kids call on them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody at your home during--at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could Jack have known you were at the radio station by reading the newspaper? Was your program listed?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, everybody by being there 3½ years--everybody knew what time segment I had. I was the kid diskjockey, so to speak. I had the top rating and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jack knew enough about your program so he knew you had arrived at the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he listened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he called you on other radio programs?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; as I say, when he has his commercials on he would call from time to time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was KLIF running commercials for Jack during this week that the President arrived and so forth?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack advertised on the Saturday night shows?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that was during that week 9 to 10 months prior.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal information that Jack listened to KLIF much more often that he listened to any other radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. So he said; and by talking to him from time to time like at the Cotton Bowling Palace, he seemed to be a great admirer of our owner again, who put the editorials out, Gordon McLendon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these political editorials?

Mr. KNIGHT. Sometimes; not all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon a person that Ruby would have put in the radical group?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he greatly admired McLendon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of his admiration if you have any information?

Mr. KNIGHT. I would imagine because of his outspoken editorials that he did and the guy stood for a lot of good things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon substantially more outspoken than other radio-station owners?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, he was the only one in Dallas radio that did any editorializing; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you that would indicate that he admired McLendon?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, again I guess--see, Ruby had evidently listened to McLendon for years before I ever came in there, but just an overall, an overall thing. Just admired the way the guy took stands on things and the way he talked about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention these things?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t have to. It was known. He didn’t, if you are getting to a point, he didn’t mention any specific editorial that Gordon did that he admired. He seemed to admire the man as a whole.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could his admiration for McLendon be in part affected by personal consideration that McLendon might have given Jack in plugging his Carousel Club, something like that?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t think so because I think he paid for that because they were commercial spots.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did McLendon speak out against?

Mr. KNIGHT. Take for instance after the assassination, he came to the defense of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how about before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Before? Of course, you know he ran for senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. And he thought there was waste in Government so to speak, but he never, never said anything against the Kennedy administration in his editorials. He always seemed to be a supporter of them. In fact he ran on the Democratic ticket himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any civic projects that he came out strongly in favor of?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. There was a point they were going to tear down Love Field. It was trying to be decided to have one solid airport between Fort Worth and Dallas, or keep Love Field, which is in Dallas. He came out strongly, instead of having an airport between, he said Dallas needed her airport. That was one thing. There was feeling on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the weekend of the 22d, and 23d, and 24th, were any special efforts made by the KLIF news staff to cover the events that were taking place in the police department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. We had a reporter on standby over there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you on Sunday morning when Oswald was shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went home after my shift to midnight Saturday night and went to bed because I was supposed to drive down and pick up my wife Sunday morning in Corpus Christi. I debated what to do. I called her. She said, “Come ahead.” She wanted to come home. I was driving to Corpus Christi, I guess on the outskirts of Waco, which is about 99 miles from Dallas. I was listening to the radio and I heard what Ruby did to Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you saw Ike Pappas on Friday night, did you ever see him again up until the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. During that time period; no. I saw him later at the trial of Ruby. I didn’t see him again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a man from KLIF down in the basement at the time Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?

Mr. KNIGHT. Gary DeLaune. In fact he had a tape of it that KLIF still has.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a man by the name of Ken Dowe a member of the KLIF staff?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. He was the afternoon diskjockey. Ruby I think had called him Saturday afternoon a couple of times; yes. By the way, this just hit me. Ruby wanted McLendon to do an editorial about this whole thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When. Did he mention this to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday night when we were all talking together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean early Saturday morning?

Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make this statement upstairs in the newsroom or when you were down on the landing talking to him?

Mr. KNIGHT. I think it was when we were out in the hall walking down to the landing. But he wanted Gordon McLendon to do an editorial, again I don’t remember the exact words used, but I think against the elements in Dallas that would bring something about; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, what you are suggesting from the things you said here is that Ruby or at least the inference one can draw is that Ruby had the idea that radical elements in Dallas were somehow responsible. I take it by this we are talking about the rightwing radicals. Or were there leftwing radicals in Dallas also?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I’m not too familiar with the terms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the H. L. Hunt?

Mr. KNIGHT. Would be the rightwing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the people that Ruby had in mind?

Mr. KNIGHT. I would say so. Now, again, I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you got the impression when he was talking about the people in Dallas that had brought this about or that he had people in mind who were of H. L. Hunt’s political persuasion?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that we have been talking about it----

Mr. KNIGHT. The same people for instance that spat on Stevenson and hit him with a sign, the same element.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby mention that?

Mr. KNIGHT. I wouldn’t make a good detective, but it’s in my--the back of my brain that he might have and he might not have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Remember, it’s a long time. And I don’t want to put you in a position of saying something that is not accurate. I would much rather have you say that you don’t remember.

Mr. KNIGHT. But I mean looking back on it, it’s hard to figure what he actually told you and what you read about him after it happened because, naturally, you would read all these things and it’s hard to piece out when at the time who would guess that he would do something like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. KNIGHT. May I make a statement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. KNIGHT. It’s--again it’s speculation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KNIGHT. But my wife and I both were talking about this, about Ruby’s conduct, like he didn’t really come out and say this or this just seemed to be sort of mixed up about the situation and the speech “Heroism” had been soiled and evidently had been used, and it wasn’t the average commercial content and so forth and so on that you would get through the mail by sending off. There’s a possibility somebody could have given him that speech, planting the seeds of heroism in his mind, knowing that he was of an excitable nature and a very impressionable type person and did like to be on the side of right people, the people in the front, show people, et cetera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea who such a person might be?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; but it seemed to me like too much of a coincidence that he should be carrying a speech called “Heroism” and then for him to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning, and for this point, maybe it is a coincidence, but it’s been overlooked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other places he could have got this heroism ad except from Station KRLD or a person affiliated with it, the H. L. Hunt booth down at Dallas State Fair perhaps, or from writing in to wherever it is centrally produced? Those would be the three places?

Mr. KNIGHT. I can’t, but again, with his seemingly handing this speech to me and wanting, maybe wanting a reaction from me, saying “Russ, you are a square guy,” like maybe you know more about these things than I do, “Who is Earl Warren,” denotes a confused attitude in his mind about the whole situation. If somebody did know him--of course, that’s a pretty farfetched idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, did you know George Senator?

Mr. KNIGHT. I met George at the Cotton Bowling Palace I think about twice and I didn’t even recall his name until I read it in the paper, or heard it over the radio, rather.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. KNIGHT. The name is familiar; yes. I don’t know if I would know him if I’d see him or not. I think I would but I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a police officer by the name of Harry Olsen?

Mr. KNIGHT. Again I might but I don’t recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Jack’s strippers?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I met one called Jada up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jada’s act?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any comments on her act?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, he thought she was great. He said, if I remember, on this situation, he said, “She’s very good but she’s tough to handle.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know an entertainer named Breck Wall?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not personally. I had read about him in the Dallas paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you did not see any of these people or hear about any of these people that I have just mentioned on the 22d or 23d or 24th?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information at all as to how Ruby got into that basement when he shot Oswald?

Mr. KNIGHT. None whatsoever; I just know that they weren’t checking very closely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Because I walked in there Friday night myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody attempt to check you?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. Let me see. This was right before I went on my air shift at 7. I walked in with some sandwiches for our reporter over there, Gary De Laune. I walked around the scene and so forth. I couldn’t find him. So I just took the sandwiches back to the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go just before 7 o’clock? Where did you walk? Did you walk up on the third floor?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk on any other floors?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I think the third floor--is that where Oswald was being held now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went up to there and stood around with the battery of camera and press photographers waiting, trying to find our reporter. Then I went down in the basement, couldn’t find him, then I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before 7 o’clock was that?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was supposed to go on at 7. I guess I was about maybe 20 minutes late. About 5 minutes till 7.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were up at the police department till 5 minutes of 7?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. We had continuous news coverage. I actually didn’t go on my own camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been up in the hallway at that time, would you have seen him as a result of your walking around?

Mr. KNIGHT. I’m sure I would have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would have remembered it now?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, but I did not see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a fellow by the name of Jenkins from KBOX?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, not personally but I have met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes and no. I met so many. I think he was a short fellow but I’m not quite sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Ruby received any assistance from anybody in connection with the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. I have another little item here you might be interested in. His sister, Eva Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Tell us about that.

Mr. KNIGHT. She wouldn’t make a statement through the press until, she wanted to contact me, or Joe Long or Gordon McLendon or somebody with KLIF. So she did get a hold of me through the station and they gave me or gave her, and I don’t know, this was a bonehead play on our receptionist’s part, the receptionist gave her my home number, and since I didn’t get back in town, naturally after the killing, until Monday night, I didn’t get it until I went in to work at 7 o’clock Monday night. And I had a little message on the phone, “Eva Grant is trying to get hold of you, would you please call this number” and so forth. So evidently our receptionist at the station didn’t know who Eva Grant was. And I had met Eva Grant with Jack. I think she was out at the Cotton Bowling Palace a couple of times. And I had been in the place that she had. She had another nightclub. It was just a dance place, male and female clientele. I had been in there with two other diskjockeys one night we met her originally. I can’t think of the name of it.

But anyway, she wanted to make a statement so I called this number on the spindle that she had given me. Somebody answered and said “She’s not here” and hung up. So I tried it again and the same thing. The voice seemed very distraught. “She’s not here” and hung up.

So I did my shift that night and the next morning I tried again because I thought this might be a very important news item. I called my boss, Gordon McLendon, about it. But I did get through to her and talked to her. And she wanted me to come over or somebody to come over. Actually didn’t want us to come over because she didn’t realize what she was talking about at that time or how she wanted to do it. But she wanted to make a press release over KLIF because reporters from all over the world had tried to get in touch with her and she didn’t want to talk to any of them. At this point I said we would send somebody over. I remember her saying that Jack didn’t know what he was doing. She believed it because it was a sincere thing. She was out of her mind, hysterical. She said the same thing on our interview tape that we have in our file, “Jack didn’t know what he was doing.” And she also said, “Please come down, the Dallas police are coming.” So, “And bring Joe Long.” And he took Gary DeLaune over and they both went over and got the interview through Eva Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as Russell Knight deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1--this purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by two FBI agents, Alfred D. Neeley and J. Calvin Rice. The interview took place with you on November 29, 1963. I would like you to look it over, read it carefully, and then tell me whether or not there are any corrections that you would make in that, any inaccuracies in there. Let me clarify this for you. What I am really directing your attention to is whether that is an accurate report of what you told them at that time, not if as a result of further reflection you think there are things wrong in it.

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I saw it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to clear up then by one or two questions what appears to be a discrepancy between what the FBI have reported and what we have been talking about here today. The FBI says in here that you stated that Glenn Duncan told you “he received a telephone call from Jack Ruby who asked him if he was interested in an interview with District Attorney Henry Wade and indicated that he was calling from the police department * * * Moore stated he immediately departed for the police department in an effort to contact Henry Wade.”

I believe when we were talking earlier it was your recollection you went over independently. Do you recall I asked you?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I meant to say Duncan had told me to go over. This is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Duncan tell you that he received a call from Jack Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I mentioned it in our interview, but I mentioned it with the sandwiches that he received a call asking to bring sandwiches up to the station, but he did mention “How would you like to have an interview with Henry Wade.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan said that to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you know that Ruby had made a telephone call to set this thing up?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s get the time straight. Duncan didn’t mention before I left for the courthouse. He mentioned the fact that a guy by the name of Jack Ruby called about an interview. And I don’t think Duncan ever met Ruby before. And he said, “Go over there and get the interview at the courthouse.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, when you went to the courthouse you were actually looking for Ruby, weren’t you?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Why would I be? No. Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Ruby was going to set the interview up?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your understanding?

Mr. KNIGHT. Here’s your confusing point. Ruby had called Duncan about the telephone interview that I told you that Wade had given Duncan earlier, in which, well, it was all right, but it wasn’t what they really wanted. That was with the telephone interview and I didn’t know Ruby would even be at the police station when I was going over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that you went over to the police station after Duncan had tape-recorded the telephone interview?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, that’s a fact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something that you have a clear recollection of, that Duncan said he had already tried to record the telephone interview?

Mr. KNIGHT. It had to be because I was--I didn’t get back to the station till about 1:45. He had already had, he might have got it in the meantime but he already had the other on tape.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there, possibly there was a sequence something like that, that Ruby called Duncan and said “How would you like an interview with Henry Wade,” that Duncan told you “Go over there and get an interview with Henry Wade,” in the meantime Ruby himself got Wade to the phone and while you were in transit to the police station Duncan recorded the interview?

Mr. KNIGHT. That could have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any facts that you can think of which would indicate one way or another that that happened or did not happen?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; all I know is that Duncan had the interview with Wade but he wanted me to get another one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was your understanding when you left, or was it your understanding when you left the radio station that Duncan had already tape-recorded an interview of Wade?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he told me to get an interview with Wade and it wasn’t until I got back that he said he had tried earlier and got an interview but it wasn’t satisfactory. Now, another point about Ruby pointing out Henry Wade to me, I had never seen Henry Wade before because I usually didn’t do news. I was on the personality and record playing. Wade said that he didn’t know Ruby but I guess Ruby could have seen him other places. But he did point him out. He said, “This is Henry Wade. This is the Weird Beard.” But he seemed to know Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your interview here, Agents Neeley and Rice report that after you interviewed Wade “when he got through Ruby was gone.” You testified here today, you recall, that you actually walked out with Ruby, that you saw Ruby a few feet away. Now, which would be the most accurate?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, this is what probably happened on that. When I got through with the interview he wasn’t around but when I started to walk out I encountered him again so this would be more accurate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you also mentioned in your interview report or the FBI mentions that you recalled Ruby was grieving for the Kennedy family. Do you have any recollection that he mentioned the Kennedy family in any way?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I’m almost sure that he said “That poor family.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that would have taken place?

Mr. KNIGHT. That would have been around the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been downstairs or upstairs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; that would have been with everybody around there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any more questions and I will just throw in one general one. Is there anything else that you can think of we haven’t covered that you think we ought to know?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I’m trying to go back in my mind, too, and think of the insanity thing. I don’t think I mentioned before, that is, Oswald’s sanity, and the Heroism thing. And I can’t think of anything that would be significant except my own again speculation about the whole thing which I am sure you don’t want to hear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have probably speculated on everything that could be based on facts here. You have speculated some and it’s been helpful. Of course, we are interested in speculations only to the extent that they might suggest some facts.

Mr. KNIGHT. One big speculation that I told you, who could have given Ruby the speech of Heroism. That’s it. How could he, where did he obtain a copy. And again, well, go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if it’s reassuring to you, but we speculated about this, too, and we made an effort to find out.

Mr. KNIGHT. In the trial that Ruby just sort of said, “This is it, we have had it,” it was just a very fast job and ended the trial like they just wanted to get him in there and convict him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the defense was conducted that way or that the prosecution----

Mr. KNIGHT. No; the prosecution--don’t use the word railroad. Strike that out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. But it seemed like they just put the poor guy in there and nobody would listen to anything. They just wanted to get him convicted for it and maybe ease the conscience or something like that. It really wasn’t an example of American justice. That’s not fact. That’s my speculation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We thank you for coming here all the way from Detroit and we appreciate people who cooperate as fully as you have here and realize it’s a sacrifice for you to do this. I don’t know whether my secretary indicated over the phone but the Commission, of course, pays mileage and out-of-pocket expenses. And the way we have been handling this with people who haven’t come to Washington is that we have asked them to send to us in Washington a list of expenses they have had in connection with this, and we will see that the proper people in Washington check it out.

Mr. KNIGHT. Should I send like the gas receipts and hotel bills?

Mr. GRIFFIN. They won’t pay you the gas receipts. They will pay you mileage, so many cents a mile, and will pay your out-of-pocket hotel expenses.

Mr. KNIGHT. Will they pay for my wife?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think so.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD C. DIETRICH

The testimony of Edward C. Dietrich was taken at 7:45 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Edward C. Dietrich. Mr. Dietrich, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Dietrich, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I understand, Mr. Dietrich, that you are appearing here tonight by virtue of a request made of you by letter by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, which you have stated to me that you received on July 9, 1964, is that right?

Mr. DIETRICH. On or about that date; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you stand and raise your hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give us in this matter will be the truth, the whole, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DIETRICH. I do, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name for the record, please.

Mr. DIETRICH. Edward C. Dietrich.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. DIETRICH. 668 Harter Road, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?

Mr. DIETRICH. I am a guard with the Armored Motor Service.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by them, sir?

Mr. DIETRICH. About 8 years, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your position as a guard?

Mr. DIETRICH. We are referred to as an armored motor operator. Guard or driver. I don’t think we have any official title.

Mr. HUBERT. You work under Mr. Bert Hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. Marvin Bert Hall; yes, sir. Bert being----

Mr. HUBERT. A nickname?

Mr. DIETRICH. Nickname; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. DIETRICH. I was off duty up until about 10 o’clock when my mother received a call from Mr. Harold Fleming, who is one of our executives. He works out of the Fort Worth office, which is our main headquarters.

He called my mother asking if I were there, and she told him I had stepped out of the house for a few minutes.

I was dressed at the time, because we were going to dinner about 11:30.

Upon returning to my home about 10:30, my mother informed me of the telephone call. And since Mr. Fleming had left his number, I called him, and he advised me that he had something for me to do, that if I could, he would appreciate it if I would meet he and Mr. Hall at the Armored Motor Service terminal as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. That is 1800 Leonard Avenue?

Mr. DIETRICH. Leonard Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Leonard Street?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir. He asked me about how long it would take me to arrive at that destination. I told him I would be there in about 15 minutes.

He said, “Well, if it takes 30 minutes, it is all right.”

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