Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 5 of 8)

Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 5 of 8)

We have asked you to come here today in particular because you had worked for Jack Ruby for a period of time. Maybe it will give us some insight into what kind of a person he was and his activities. Under the rules and regulations that have been established by the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your testimony. I might tell you that there is a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to have 3 days’ notice in writing before being asked to testify, so I will ask you first of all, have you received a letter from us?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive it?

Mrs. POWELL. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Last Sunday, so there is no problem on the notice there?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask me?

Mrs. POWELL. No, sir; not really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before I administer the oath to you?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I have been questioned by the FBI three times already.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Only three times?

Mrs. POWELL. That is enough. They were following me around everywhere I went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if there are any questions that should arise as we proceed with the testimony, you feel free to ask them.

Mrs. POWELL. I will; don’t worry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand and let me administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. POWELL. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your full name?

Mrs. POWELL. Nancy Monnell Powell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mrs. POWELL. M-o-n-n-e-l-l Powell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a professional or stage name that you use?

Mrs. POWELL. Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mrs. POWELL. T-a-m-m-i T-r-u-e [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, now, Mrs. Powell?

Mrs. POWELL. I live in Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Mrs. POWELL. Mrs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where in Fort Worth?

Mrs. POWELL. 1217 Clarence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you living alone, or with your husband?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I am divorced. My grandmother is living with me, and I have two children living with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mrs. POWELL. June the 9th, 1938.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed presently?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mrs. POWELL. The Islands Club in Oklahoma City.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the I-s-l-a-n-d-s [spelling]?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed there?

Mrs. POWELL. Since Wednesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working before that?

Mrs. POWELL. I wasn’t. I have been off for 6 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about before that?

Mrs. POWELL. I worked in Oklahoma City at the Dugout Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long do you expect to be at the Islands Club?

Mrs. POWELL. I have a 2 weeks contract, with 2 weeks option.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any place where, if we should want to talk to you again, that we could locate you?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, while I am in the city, I am staying at the Rio Motel in Oklahoma City, but this is my permanent address. I own my home there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Fort Worth?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does your grandmother always know where you can be found?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be easiest to contact you through her, or do you have an agent?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I don’t have an agent. I use a lot of different agents.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you worked for Jack Ruby; is that right?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?

Mrs. POWELL. About 2 years ago, or 2½ years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a better estimate of the time? Was it in early 1962, or the summer of 1962, or when?

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, gosh, I have to stop and think. Let’s see, it was in the fall. I know it was in the fall. I don’t remember. I think it was probably in the, well, it might have been early spring. I think it was in March when I went to work there, and I think it was 1962. I can’t remember that. I can’t remember dates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him altogether?

Mrs. POWELL. You mean when I--not counting the times I was gone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you work for him steadily after you first went to work for him, or were there times when you didn’t work for him?

Mrs. POWELL. I worked steady for about 9 months or a year, and then I went out of town for 2 or 3 months, and then I came back and worked, and went out of town, and came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how did you first go to work for him?

Mrs. POWELL. This friend of mine was working over there, and she told me about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mrs. POWELL. Shari Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you worked as a dancer before?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; but I hadn’t been working steady. I had been doing club dates. There is a club in Fort Worth that they have exotics on weekends, and that was all I was doing. I had never worked seven nights a week before, and three shows a night, and she wanted me to go on the road. I am her protege.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is her real name?

Mrs. POWELL. Kay Garcia.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she live in Dallas or Fort Worth area?

Mrs. POWELL. In Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. POWELL. If you hadn’t asked me, I could have told you. I am a blank. I know the address and the number and everything. She lives out off Garland Road someplace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you were her protege. Are you still her protege? Or was that back a couple of years?

Mrs. POWELL. I am considered a star now, but that was, it might have been 1961 when I went to work for Jack, because I started in--let me go back and think. I got my divorce in 1960 in May, and I think it was in January or February of 1961 that I started dancing. It was about 6 months after I got my divorce that I first started, and I just worked around Fort Worth for about 7 or 8 months. That would make it 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you figuring this as I am going along?

Mrs. POWELL. It is hard to remember, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You got your divorce----

Mrs. POWELL. In May of 1960.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you didn’t start to work as a dancer until about 6 months later; is that right?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes, about 6 months, I believe. I think I started in February. That would be 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked around Fort Worth for another 6 or 7 months?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you go to work for Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that still would have made it 1961, perhaps the latter part of 1961?

Mrs. POWELL. No; wait a minute--well, I don’t know, seems like I have known him for a hundred years. But what was I telling you--oh, yes; she wanted me to--where was I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were telling me about Shari Lynn and your friendship with her and you were her protege.

Mrs. POWELL. So, she was working for Jack. She has been in business a long time, and she asked him to put me to work, so I could get some experience, 7 nights a week, and I did, and I stayed there. She only wanted me to work there 2 or 3 weeks or something, and I stayed there forever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long did you work continuously for Jack before you stopped working for awhile?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I really don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from?

Mrs. POWELL. It was a long time. It was, you know, close to a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you work?

Mrs. POWELL. I think I went there in March of whatever year it was, and I didn’t go on the road until the next summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A year and a half then, almost?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because it was in the summer--two summers ago. Not last summer, but the summer before last. I went to Houston, for, I don’t know, a few weeks or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And came back? Would that have been 1962?

Mr. POWELL. October.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you would have started working for him in about 1961?

Mrs. POWELL. I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you on the road in the summer of 1962?

Mrs. POWELL. Let’s see, I worked down there, I think, 3 weeks in Houston, and then I came back, but I didn’t go back to work out there immediately. I was off for awhile. I didn’t work any place for awhile and then I went back, but don’t ask me when, because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you did go back, which would have been, I presume in the fall of 1962, even later, maybe the winter of 1962?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I was there New Year’s Eve, I know, of that year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you went back to work for Jack, and then how long did you work for him after that?

Mrs. POWELL. I worked for him until last summer. I got mad at him again and went to Oklahoma City. No; I went to Tulsa, Okla., and worked 7 weeks, and then came back. I don’t think I went back with him then. No; I came back a week or two, and then I went back up to Oklahoma City, and I stayed 6 weeks last summer. Then I went to Kansas City for 2 weeks last summer also, and then I came back. August, I was up here. I was up in Oklahoma and it was awfully hot up there. And when I came back from Oklahoma City, after August, I went back to work for him. Are we up to this year yet?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We ought to be up to the fall of 1963. Let me answer this telephone. Let me interrupt you here and ask you, is there a difference between an exotic dancer and a striptease dancer?

Mrs. POWELL. Now, you have goofed me up. The difference between them is, an exotic is like a belly dancer, comes out on stage with veils and panels and things, like the dancer of the seven veils. And a stripper comes out fully clothed and takes it off. But an exotic doesn’t take anything off. It is like, I don’t know, Egyptian or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dancing do you do, striptease, or exotic?

Mrs. POWELL. A lot of girls would prefer to be exotic, but as far as I am concerned, it is a dirty old stripper. I have a friend that is a comedian that wants to team me with him, and I think I will.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think before we digress here, Mrs. Powell, we were trying to figure out when it was that you started to work for Jack Ruby again just before he shot Oswald?

Mrs. POWELL. Let’s see----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated something about being in Kansas City?

Mrs. POWELL. I get confused on these things, because when you just skip around, you don’t--let’s see, did we establish I was working for him in January of----

Mr. GRIFFIN. New Year’s Eve of 1963 you said you were working for him----

Mrs. POWELL. I lived over here for a while in the same apartment building he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live on Ewing Street?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 223 South Ewing Street?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t move there until about the first of the year?

Mrs. POWELL. We moved in at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living with him?

Mrs. POWELL. No. I wasn’t living with him, the ugly thing. I had an apartment. I presume you have seen his apartment and everything and know about it. My apartment was right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Across the hall?

Mrs. POWELL. Actually, I was away down here in the corner, and you had to walk around this corner, and my apartment was right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living there alone, or with somebody else?

Mrs. POWELL. I lived there part-time alone, and this other girl that danced here was my roommate for awhile when she was in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mrs. POWELL. Raven.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you live there before you went to Oklahoma City, or after you went to Oklahoma City?

Mrs. POWELL. That was the last time that I quit, was while I was living there, and I have forgotten when it was.

Now, in January I lived there. I moved in about the same time he did, because the apartment was a brand new building, and I was living down on Ewing, but further down, and there were a bunch of people living there that were kind of loud and it wasn’t a very good environment, and Jack didn’t think I should live there, and they were always fighting and calling the police, and he looked at this apartment, and he was going to move in.

He was real enthused about them, they were so great, and he got me to go down there and look at them, and I got an apartment there, because I don’t like to stay by myself. I am real scary. I always think somebody is going to follow me home and do something to me, and I wanted to live in the same building as Jack so if I had any trouble, I would get him to help me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s go back to last summer. Were you working for Jack last summer?

Mrs. POWELL. Last summer; no. Last summer I was up in Oklahoma City, so that means I came back and went to work for him, right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You moved into that apartment sometime the early part of 1963, and then when you went to Oklahoma City, did you move out of the apartment?

Mrs. POWELL. You see, I quit the last time. It was while I was living in the apartment building. That is when I quit, and I didn’t come back. No, I came back one more time, and I left just 2 days before this happened, from the Carousel, then I was gone, and I came back after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you quit Jack on November 20, that is 2 days before the President was shot----

Mrs. POWELL. That was the last time I quit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time, were you living at South Ewing?

Mrs. POWELL. No. I quit before then. I was living on South Ewing, and there was a girl working up there that is married then to the emcee, and they were always, that doesn’t work out in show business too well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?

Mrs. POWELL. And his wife, Shari.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she working there as a stripper at Jack’s place?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. There is always a lot of confusion when they were around. They were kind of tough. Really, they are. They think they are great stars, and they cause trouble for other people, and I don’t need it, because I can work, and I didn’t feel like I could take it.

But anyway, we had some trouble, and I quit. This must have been in March, because I remember the weather wasn’t bad. It was still cool, but it was like the summer, sun was shining.

It was March or April. Let me think, March or April. Must have been March or April, I guess. I don’t really know. I can’t remember.

But anyway, I quit, and I told him I would never work up there again as long as they were there.

And I worked some place else. I guess I went to Tulsa. I guess that is where I went. I worked some place.

I came back. It was in December, the month of December I worked in Oklahoma City for 4 weeks of this past year, and I came home for Christmas. And he called me. He has a partner, wanted his partner to ask me to come back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul.

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. But Jack didn’t want to. Jack and I really had it all the time. I don’t know, either Ralph asked me or he did, but anyway, I went back. I told him I wouldn’t work with them, so he fired this Shari so I would come back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you came back?

Mrs. POWELL. Wait a minute. I was up there in December, and New Year’s Eve I worked in Fort Worth for the Skyliner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which year, New Year’s Eve?

Mrs. POWELL. This past New Year’s, this year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1964. You are on beyond the assassination at this point?

Mrs. POWELL. Am I really? I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you are.

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes, yes; I am. Yes; I am way beyond. Sure that had already happened when I was in Oklahoma.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Jack around March of 1963?

Mrs. POWELL. Wait a minute. I know I went to Tulsa, and I worked the last 2 weeks in March. I stayed in Tulsa in March, and I worked 2 weeks in Kansas City, and came back, and stayed in Tulsa, until June 2, and I came home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you come back and work for Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. Wait, don’t rush me. That was last summer. How did I get up way past the assassination? It was last summer. Well, I worked for Jack up until 2 days before the President was assassinated. I closed on Tuesday. It happened on Thursday, didn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday.

Mrs. POWELL. Then I closed on Wednesday, because it was just 2 days before the President was assassinated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to quit?

Mrs. POWELL. I got mad at him. Let me see if I can remember what it was about now. I don’t even remember--something. He always had something going, you know; but I got mad and quit for some reason.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give him any advance notice?

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes; I gave him notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much notice?

Mrs. POWELL. A week’s notice. Under union contract rules, you have to give the employer a week’s notice, and he has to give you 2 weeks, if you are booked indefinitely like I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the AGVA rules?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time?

Mrs. POWELL. I was living in Fort Worth then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack pay while you worked for him? What was your salary?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, it was $110 a week, I think, or $115 he paid me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack meeting the union scale?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. See, in classified clubs like A, B, and C clubs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s classification?

Mrs. POWELL. I think it was classified as a C club, because he had connections. The C clubs don’t have to pay as much as the class B, or A club would have to pay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Jack’s reaction to your having quit him?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, he always acted like he didn’t care, like he was glad to get rid of me, and then he called me to come back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on Jada?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually witness that episode?

Mrs. POWELL. The whole thing. As a matter of fact, I thought he was going to turn and jump on me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened?

Mrs. POWELL. Let’s see, she was pulling her pants down, and that is against the law. She could close him up. And he got real excited. He was real excitable and he was running back and forth, and he didn’t know what to do, so he just turned the lights out on her, and she just kept on dancing. Then she came off stage, and he got this idea in his mind, that she was--she had been doing this ever since she had been there, and all of a sudden he just noticed it. He had this idea in his mind that she was going to try to get his club closed down, and she was doing it to close the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get that idea?

Mrs. POWELL. How did he get any of his ideas. He just got weird ideas about them. Like me, for instance, ever since the day I went to work for him, he never trusted me. He liked me and he had a lot of respect for me, but he said I was a conniver and I was a sharpie, and he said I was always thinking, trying to figure out a way to rook somebody out of something. I don’t know where he got that impression, because I am not like that at all.

I would walk up to him in the evening and say, “Helloooo Jack,” on purpose, because he had this weird reaction, and he would look at me and say, “What do you want?” Because he thought I wanted something. And one day I said, “What have you got that I would be trying to beat you out of?” He couldn’t think of anything, but it didn’t change his mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you sort of teased him a bit?

Mrs. POWELL. I understood Jack and we got along great. We had fights and I would cuss him and he would cuss me, but he liked me for that. He never liked girls he could push around. He would much rather holler at them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jada was in cahoots with your competitors in any way?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I think he was getting ready to let her go anyway, because she had been there quite awhile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because she had been there quite awhile and wasn’t drawing much business. At first she drew a lot of business, but she was there for a long time and weren’t doing much business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is the reason that she took this extra license in the middle of her act, because she hadn’t been drawing much business?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. She really had been doing it--she came from New Orleans, and the first night she did her act, she was awful.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she do?

Mrs. POWELL. She was pulling up her strings, and they did things like that in New Orleans, and the girls don’t work like that, so Jack had her to clean her act up about three times so he wouldn’t get in any trouble. But she loved publicity and would love to have been taken to jail for it.

Believe me, I love and adore her. I think she has everything on the ball. She is flashy and she is what a stripper should be if they are going to be one, but she would do anything, just anything, and she went out with every reporter in town to get her name in the paper, from sports writers on up. And Jack got the word, or somebody that she was going to get arrested, because when she gets in town, she wants everybody to know she is in town, and if she has to go to jail to do it. She is smart, because she is clever. Because people come to see her for curiosity. I don’t think that was it. He just happened to notice her doing it, and I don’t really know. I think they had a little trouble or something, and an argument. They argued a lot too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that she was pulling her pants down?

Mrs. POWELL. She wasn’t pulling them down. She wore these very brief flesh-colored things underneath the G-string. She took the G-string and was pulling this front out from her body.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She would take off the G-string and have the flesh-colored pants on?

Mrs. POWELL. She had her hands like this and was pulling them out or pulling them up, and he saw her, and he just turned the lights out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But this is something you had seen her do previously?

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, I had seen her, sure; but he has a way of not seeing everything. He is always so busy. I remember one night on the stage I went out and I was very mad, and I stomped around and acted real silly like I had never been on the stage before, for his benefit, and I do 15 minutes, and I was waiting for him to come back and jump on me, and he didn’t even see it, and he was right there in the club. He doesn’t observe everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after he turned the lights out on Jada?

Mrs. POWELL. She went on and kept dancing in the dark. And she came off and was hollering and screaming, and he went back immediately and jumped on her and said she was trying to get the club closed. And they had a big row and he fired her. He told her she couldn’t work the rest of the night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten or strike her in any way?

Mrs. POWELL. No: he didn’t hit her. I wouldn’t doubt that he might have. I wouldn’t put it past him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen him hit any of the employees?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had any of the employees tell you that he hit them?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I guess I call him everything in the book, and he never made an attempt to hit me. I argued with him more than anybody up there, and he never made an attempt to hit me. He never even threatened me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you had a little protection. You were friendly with his backer?

Mrs. POWELL. That wouldn’t stop Jack. He doesn’t care. I mean, if he felt like doing it, he would do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit any customers?

Mrs. POWELL. Once I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe that episode?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; Ralph was up there, and Ralph and I were sitting by the door, and this guy came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Ralph Paul?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; and this guy came in and he sat down in a chair behind me, and he was rubbing my back, and I told him to take his hands off of me, and so he wouldn’t stop, and Ralph, you know Ralph--my hero--he told him “OK, that is enough. Get out of here.” And he was pushing him out, and Jack was in the club and saw him, and he came running over and grabbed the guy and was pushing him out, and he got very upset because he thought quite a bit of Ralph, and the guy took a swing at Ralph. When he did, Jack just hit him. He hit him and pushed him out and closed the door where he couldn’t come back in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a pretty strong fellow?

Mrs. POWELL. From what I understand, he is pretty rough. I have never actually seen him fight or anything. He is actually pretty good natured, really. I have seen him argue with his best friends and tell them to get out of the club and don’t ever come back. He and Earl Norman got into a fight one night up there too. And he and Earl were good friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a fight or an argument?

Mrs. POWELL. He hit him, but it was Earl’s fault.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened there?

Mrs. POWELL. Earl came in the club, and he drinks quite a bit, and he used to work up there as an emcee, but he drinks a lot, and when he gets drunk--well, we better go back to Jada, because this happened over that deal. On that night, Jack told Jada she couldn’t finish out the night. She was going to do it anyway, and she called the union man so she could finish doing her last two shows. And the union man came up there and he talked to them, and he told Jack to let her go ahead and finish. So, they got together and decided to let her finish the week before she left.

Then they got into it again over something, I don’t know, and she says that he threatened to hit her and all this, so the next night she is on stage working and the police came up there, and she had got a warrant for his arrest for threatening her or something, I don’t know, filed charges against him, and they come up and took Jack and Jada before the night judge, got him out of bed or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there and did you actually see the police come up and get Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; they took Jada with them. In the meantime, she had put all her stuff and packed it away in trunks and bought this paraffin that you seal things with and seal all her things up so if Jada missed anything--she said he threatened to burn her wardrobe also. And he went down to the police station and went before the judge, and they were gone about 2 hours, and he came back. The reason they went is because Jack didn’t want to pay her for the week. He wanted her to leave, and she got her money, $250. The judge gave it to her. And he came back and was furious, and he said she went down and told the judge all kinds of bad things about all of us, and he got the other girls worked up, and they were going to go to the motel where she was staying and do all kinds of things. And I am sitting there. I am pretty levelheaded, and I like Jack, but he likes to fabricate, and I couldn’t believe that she said all the things he said she did. Anyway, if she did, she was telling the truth. She said, “I told the judge I pulled my pants down too, so I did.”

I took up for her. I said, “Now, when you are calling her all these things, you go out and jump on her, and that is not going to make you any better than she is.” He got mad at me because I didn’t want to go out and jump on her. He felt like I was against him, so he was hollering at me and said, “I used to have respect, but I lost all respect. He thought I was stuff and tough.” And I don’t know, so I just left the club. I said, “I don’t even want to talk to you.” I went inside and I went back in and Earl Norman came over, because he is on the board of directors. The union man couldn’t come over, and he sent Earl over there to stay there until Jada got her things and got out, so there would be a representative there in case anything happened. And she filed a claim. Jack thought Earl was against him also because he came over there.

So, he was in the club, and Jack started hollering at him and told him--first of all, it started out as a nice conversation, and Earl is great about quoting you new rules. He knows all of them, and he goes by the book, and especially when he is drinking. That is all he can talk about is union rules. He drives you crazy sometimes. And he was explaining to Jack, Jack said, “You are against me. You are against me.” And he said, “No; I am not. I had to come over, Tom Palmer told me to, and it is my job as a member of the board.” And Jack told him to get out. He said, “I want you to leave. If you don’t, I am going to punch you in the mouth, so you get out now.” And he was walking the floor. He was really, very, very angry. So Earl tells him, “You better not ever hit me, or I will get a gun and come back and shoot you.” He shouldn’t have said that. Jack went to pieces and he smashed him in the mouth, but Earl wasn’t going to give up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Earl leave at that point?

Mrs. POWELL. No; he kept explaining and mouthing off, but Jack didn’t hit him any more. The band was there and I was there. We had closed up already.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack send anybody out to get a gun?

Mrs. POWELL. No. It wasn’t Jack that made that statement. It was Earl Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was Earl Norman who said he was going to get a gun and shoot?

Mrs. POWELL. Earl said if he ever hit him, he would go home and get a gun, and Jack hit him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack did hit him?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I don’t blame him much. He provoked him, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Earl do? Did he leave?

Mrs. POWELL. No; he kept on, and they got Jack calmed down, and Earl kept on, because when he drinks, he doesn’t have good sense, Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when Earl Norman came back to the club about a week before President Kennedy was shot and Jack wouldn’t let him in? Do you remember that incident?

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, well, he had come up a lot of times and Jack wouldn’t let him in. He has been barred from there a hundred times. He would have an argument, and Jack would bar him. One time they ran him off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to follow it from the time of this episode with Jada.

Mrs. POWELL. He came back after that. Jack never stayed mad at anyone for a long length of time. He would throw him out and tell him, “Don’t come back,” but Earl would call, “Is it OK if I come up,” or he would come to the door and ask if it is all right, and I don’t remember Jack not letting him in. But a lot of times it was depending on how drunk he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe any kindnesses or anything that Jack showed?

Mrs. POWELL. He was very kind to a lot of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any specific instances of kind acts?

Mrs. POWELL. He was always picking people up off the street or something, that didn’t have a place to stay or any money or a job or anything. He just had all kinds. Well, he had this one guy who used to sleep in the club. We had three or four guys sleeping in the club every night because they didn’t have a place to stay. And he would give him $2 or $3 a day, and they were sort of flunkies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the last fellow, Larry Crafard?

Mrs. POWELL. Isn’t he kind of a carnival guy?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the fellow.

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about Jack’s twistboard?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. I demonstrated his twistboard here in the building with the exhibits.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Texas Product Show?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you go out to demonstrate?

Mrs. POWELL. Just once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there?

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, about 30 minutes to an hour. Jack called me, and I went there before work one night, and then I went home with him and he cooked lamb chops.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do, get up on the board?

Mrs. POWELL. There was another boy, he had picked up by the name of Tommy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had another fellow?

Mrs. POWELL. At this time that I was demonstrating the twistboard, there was this boy living with him. His name was Tommy something, and he was staying with him the last time I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Living in Jack’s apartment?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. Because they came out there, and we went to the apartment, and Jack cooked dinner for us all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a fellow was Tommy?

Mrs. POWELL. About 25, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he look like?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I think he played--he told me he had played baseball. He looked like a baseball player. Baseball players all look alike, sort of athletic type, but not musclebound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how tall?

Mrs. POWELL. About 5´ 11´´, had brown hair, and I think he was from Iowa or someplace like that, a really nice kid. And he had a job; he was working though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he working?

Mrs. POWELL. Gee, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Tommy been living with Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. He was living with him when I came back for work the last time, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he move out?

Mrs. POWELL. You got me, I don’t know. I mean, I didn’t keep up with all of these guys. He just picked guys up.

One night he had this boy up there, and he said, “You are going to Fort Worth. I want you to give this friend of mine a ride.”

And I said, “OK.” He says, “He goes to college at TCU, and you can drop him off.”

And I said, “OK.”

And the kid is working around there, and when I get ready to leave and I get him in the car and we pile his books in at the bus station, and I start on the turnpike, and I said, “How long have you known Jack?”

And he said, “I don’t know him. I didn’t have enough money to get to Fort Worth, and I started talking to him on the street, and he told me to come up to the club and he would give me a couple of dollars to work, and then he got me a ride.”

And Jack doesn’t know him, and here I am on a dark turnpike with this guy. But that is the way he does things.

There was a guy standing down one night in front of the place looking at pictures out in front, and Jack was down there, and he started talking to him, and that guy stayed around for a long time, and he got to be, well, he knew a lot of people here, and he was a pretty nice guy.

And Jack had him tell everybody that he was a friend of his from Chicago, because he knew that people, we were always teasing him about picking people up and helping them out, so he got to where he would say they were old friends from Chicago or someplace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were demonstrating the twistboard, did you sell any of them?

Mrs. POWELL. We sold one to the guy that is the head of--what is the biggest extract company that makes food extract?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunt Foods? H. L. Hunt?

Mrs. POWELL. No. What is it? They distribute it here. It is a big extract company. They make vanilla and almond and all this.

The man’s name that we sold it to was the man who owned the company, and he gave Jack, supposed to give Jack a case of rum extract or something.

Jack was trying to figure out a way to serve drinks after hours, and there is no way you can but this way you can serve rum and coke, and you can put rum straight in coke and sell it, and there is not enough alcohol in it that the law could do anything about it, and you can sell it for 60 cents. That was my idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested that you sell it for 60 cents and mix the rum extract?

Mrs. POWELL. The whole thing, so he was tickled to death this guy was going to give him a whole case of rum extract.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever try that?

Mrs. POWELL. No, he never did do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were out at the Texas Product Show, did Jack ever pick up any literature from H. L. Hunt?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any radio scripts from Life Line?

Mrs. POWELL. No. What is Life Line?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack have any political discussions with anybody?

Mrs. POWELL. No; never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember about this fellow Larry, the carnival kid?

Mrs. POWELL. I remember I didn’t like him too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, because I thought he was kind of a bum, and I don’t like bums. He is kind of a--like kind of gave me the creeps or something, like some guy. I think he looked at you kind of funny. I don’t know, I didn’t like him, and he got pretty bossy.

Jack let him sleep up in the place there, and he decided he was big cheese, and he came back there one night telling me something that I should do, and I really jumped on him and told him, “All you are is a flunky and you are just up here to sweep floors.” So, I don’t think he liked me too well after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever give you any of the reducing pills he was taking?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any to the other girls?

Mrs. POWELL. No. I didn’t know he was taking reducing pills. He had some kind of powder junk and you are supposed to put it in your coffee and it will hold your appetite down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Diet pills is what I meant when I said reducing pills.

Mrs. POWELL. But I just saw this powder and he had that sitting on the table by the coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any transactions he did under the name of Banker Drugs?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard that? Banker Drugs?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a number of the girls that swore out affidavits against Jack for AGVA, and they said in their affidavits that Jack wanted them to mingle with the customers contrary to the AGVA rules and so forth? What do you know about that?

Mrs. POWELL. That is not true. That is absolutely untrue, absolutely.

Jack had a hard time in that club because the other clubs were in competition with him, and they have been here 20 years. Not near as bad as Jack imagined.

He had this big thing built up in his mind that they were trying to put him out of business, but really they weren’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t think they were. Why should they care. They have been in business 20 years, and still doing the same things. Other clubs help you. It is competition, and people like that, and people like to go to other clubs in different districts.

Jack was upset about the amateur nights and I can see why, because the amateurs were all working and they got $10 a night doing a show.

They had four clubs in Dallas they could work, and that was $40 a week, plus all the daytime jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the four clubs? I know of the Carousel, the Theatre Lounge, and the Colony Club. What was the fourth?

Mrs. POWELL. Vegas. He let the girls work at the Vegas to help them out to get another $10. He didn’t need it at the Vegas. The place was packed all the time.

They passed this rule that you couldn’t have amateur exotics any more because it was knocking some legitimate acts out of business, so Jack immediately--they sent wires to all the club owners, and Jack immediately stopped.

But the other two clubs continued to have their amateur exotics. But they said the girls had to join the union. You had to pay them $35 a night. That is union scale for a night.

But they weren’t paying them that. They were paying them $10 or $15 just per usual.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any of the girls tell you?

Mrs. POWELL. I got a direct line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of the girls tell you how much they were getting paid?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody in one of the clubs tell you?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mrs. POWELL. I really don’t remember. I really don’t remember, but that is what I heard, and I just know. Listen, I know these club owners. They are not going to give their girls $35. They are not, because I know them. They kept having their shows over there.

And I was in the office when Jack called the head man, I think, in New York or Chicago. He went up, as a matter of fact, to New York and paid a visit to him.

Then when I went to New York last year, he wanted me to go over and talk to him. And one night in his office, I was in there when he made a call. He was very upset about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us from your knowledge of Jack that in the couple of weeks or months before President Kennedy was shot, Jack was more excited and worried and concerned about his club and his competitors than he had been at other times?

Mrs. POWELL. No. Maybe he was. He got to where he hadn’t been coming in so much, being so worried about it.

He became more relaxed about the club. At first, he would never leave the club. He was there all the time, but he got to where he would go out and come in later like at 10 o’clock or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the feeling that in fact in the month or so before the President was shot, Jack felt confident enough about his club so he was out doing other things?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, not that he was out doing other things. Just that he wasn’t coming in until 10. I think he had someone working up there at that time that was running it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I think there was someone up there that was kind of looking after the place, but he had the club pretty well going smooth enough to where he could do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy Armstrong pretty able to run the club for him?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. We had all been there so long and we knew what to do and when to do it and how to do it.

Really, Jack didn’t have much of a problem, because the kids had been with him for a long time, most of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you described the episode with Jada and as a result of it you mentioned that he felt people were against him, and you sided with his competitors, and he was mad at Earl Norman and felt Earl Norman was on the other side, and so forth.

Had there been other occasions when Jack had said the same thing, or was this a new concern on his part that everybody was turning against him?

Mrs. POWELL. No. Ever since I have known him, he had been that way. He is the type of person that he gets an idea about something and I don’t care what it is, if that is the way he feels about it, you can’t shake his mind, and it doesn’t do any good to argue, because that is the way he is.

And he never thinks before he does anything, never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How common was it for him to feel that people were against him?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, it is very common, because I think--I don’t know, because I wasn’t there, but from being around him and from knowing Ralph as well as I do and other people that know Jack, I understand that he had a pretty hard time getting up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From your own experience, I am asking you?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, it was very common, but you know, like all of his life, he has had to fight for things, and he feels that in order to get some place, he’s got to do everything, he is going to do it before somebody else does it to stop him.

He has always had this in his mind that somebody was going to do something to him, and he was going to beat them to the punch.

Does that make sense to you? Do you understand what I am saying?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted to get in there first?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t care how much money Jack had. If he had been a millionaire, he wouldn’t have been one bit different. He didn’t have any class, and he really wanted to. And no tact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had he ever said to you about his desire for class?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, now, you could tell the way he acted, and if you were around him a great deal. Jack really wanted to be somebody, and have class. He used the word class quite often, so I know it was an important thing with him. This girl that worked up there, he said, “She’s got class,” and he would go on about class. Everything had to have class. And I think that is what he wanted, but he could never have it, because Jack was just Jack. He has no tact. I mean the club could be packed, and if he is standing over on this side and there is something doing, he would holler, “Hey, you hit the door.” He is just weird.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we will get back to this in a little bit. I want to ask you some questions about your own activities on November 22 and from then on, and we will maybe work back into this again.

Mrs. POWELL. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. POWELL. I was at this guy’s house over here in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. You probably got his name down. I don’t know which name you got.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know whether I do. Mike Ryan? Mickey Ryan?

Mrs. POWELL. That is the one, the guy that Jack picked up, the one I was telling you about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go over to his house?

Mrs. POWELL. I had some friends come in from Old Mexico that morning. There were five of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I didn’t know all of them. There was this one guy I knew was a bartender in Tulsa, and when I worked in Oklahoma I--the last time, he rode this far with me. He had a friend in Old Mexico, and he was going to go over there for about a month or so. And I brought him over to the apartment. As a matter of fact, he went down there, and he had been gone about 2 or 3 months, and that morning someone knocked on the back door, and this was him, and he had these other people with him that I didn’t know. Like I say, my grandmother lives with me. And he said, “I have some friends in the car and we have driven 1,500 miles and haven’t eaten and didn’t have any money. They had been down bumming around and could they come in?” And I said, “Sure.” And he gets out and brings in a girl, a beatnik, which doesn’t bother me. My grandmother is 76, and she is a beatnik.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not your grandmother?

Mrs. POWELL. No; the girl is a beatnik type. She is from England or something like that, I think. And his other boy comes in from New York and all three people are from New York, and he brings this colored guy. And like I live in the South, but I just figured that this is my property. He was a very nice guy. He was studying to be a doctor, and they had gone there for the summer. They came and I fixed breakfast and coffee. And this friend of mine from Tulsa has a friend over here and he wanted me to bring him over to see if he could borrow some money, because he was going to ride as far as Tulsa, and give them some money to get to New York. So, I brought him over here and went out to his friend’s house and his friend wasn’t at home. His friend’s house is very close to the apartment that Mickey was living in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living at that time?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. It is where Gaston Avenue--are you familiar with the city?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I know the street.

Mrs. POWELL. It is where Gaston comes into, you know, you go out Gaston--have you gone out Gaston? If you haven’t, I am not going to go through this. It is where Gaston and Grand Avenue come together. He lived on Gaston, but just off of Grand Avenue. It is a real pretty apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was it when you got over there?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. What time was the President assassinated? That is what time it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About 12:30?

Mrs. POWELL. That is what time it was, because when we went in, the television was on, and when we went in, Mickey turned the TV off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your friends with you?

Mrs. POWELL. No; just Pete and I. His friends stayed over in my house and we came over here alone. When we went in, TV was on, and Mike turned it off, and we were sitting there talking, and Pete was looking for a job or something, so he said, “I have this friend that Mike had just gone to work in a bar out here at the Marriott or some place, and he said he had this friend that might be able to help Pete find a job. And he went to the phone and called him, and we were sitting in the living room, and he asked this guy, and the secretary said that he was outside. Anyway, I don’t know about that conversation, but all of a sudden he said, “Oh, no.” He was going on something terrible, and I thought what happened to his friend. So I said, “What happened to your friend?” And he didn’t answer. Then he came out of the bedroom and he said, the President has just been shot, he walked right to the TV and turned it on, and we thought it was a joke, that nothing like that could happen, it just couldn’t. And we were laughing and everything, and he turned it on, and they had the TV cameras out where he was supposed to make his speech. They announced it, and it was unbelievable.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?

Mrs. POWELL. We didn’t remain very long. We just stopped by there for a minute, and we left there and came downtown. No; we went to Parkland Hospital. We were there long enough, because we found he was in Parkland Hospital. And Pete and I went over to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at Parkland Hospital before it was known that the President was dead?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; go ahead.

Mrs. POWELL. So, we went out there to the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, because I thought of another question.

Mrs. POWELL. OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the driving conditions going out there to Parkland?

Mrs. POWELL. Very bad. Well, they weren’t so bad. I came through town to start with. We started down to get an extra, because we knew they would have extras, and I wanted to get one to save for my kiddos.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did stop downtown?

Mrs. POWELL. Over here some place at one of the newspapers. We stopped for just a second and ran into see if they had the extras out yet. No; maybe we didn’t. I think we went directly to the hospital, because it had just happened. Anyway, we went to the hospital, and it wasn’t too bad going out, but around the hospital it was just terrible. But we parked and we walked up and stood there, and the TV cameras were there already. And I guess we had been there about--on the way out there, they announced over the radio that the President was dead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove out, did you go out the expressway? That is, Stemmons Expressway?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive out the Stemmons Expressway?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was the traffic on Stemmons Expressway?

Mrs. POWELL. It didn’t seem to be too bad on the expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make normal time?

Mrs. POWELL. I drove very fast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you? Where did you get on the Stemmons Expressway?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I came through town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get on there the same way the President had gone?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I sure did, because Pete had never been here before. It was his first time. Just when he got the plane to go to Mexico. And I was showing him. We drove by the Depository down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long would it have taken you to drive out there?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don’t recall that it took any longer than it normally would to drive out there. Of course, I slowed down through town. We came down and I slowed down and we looked up at the window. Of course, there was a lot of people, but they were keeping traffic moving, and we went exactly the same route, because I pointed out the building where he was supposed to make his speech. Then I got off, and I wasn’t too sure where the hospital was, to tell the truth. I got off and I found it all right, and there was just a lot of traffic around there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any trouble parking when you got to the hospital?

Mrs. POWELL. Sure. People were parking everywhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you got out there after you learned the President was dead?

Mrs. POWELL. They hadn’t announced it to the people there, I don’t think. I know that I knew that the President was dead. The people standing around the hospital did not know it as of yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you standing around the main entrance or the emergency entrance?

Mrs. POWELL. I was around at the main entrance, I guess. The main entrance faces this way? Like this is the hospital, and this is Harry Hines, and this is the main entrance?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to draw a diagram. Put Harry Hines Boulevard and the Parkland Hospital, and then draw it in such a way that we can tell.

Mrs. POWELL. I will make the hospital here, and this is Harry Hines here. I parked down here somewhere, and all the TV cameras--there was a big truck, was like here with the cameras, and I stood just right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a “P” where you were.

Mrs. POWELL. I stood right here, and there was an entranceway here, and, of course, there was a curb right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see President Johnson come out of the hospital?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I didn’t. I don’t think he was seen, was he? Did they put him in a car with the curtains drawn? I know they kind of worried about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the entrance that you were standing by, the entrance that President Kennedy’s body was taken into?

Mrs. POWELL. No. See, I wasn’t there when they took him in or anything, but I was standing here on this side. Now, this would be Harry Hines running north and south; right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. POWELL. I was standing on the south side of the building, and I think the emergency is around here. There wasn’t any way I could, get close to the emergency, because it was just full of cars and people, so I came down here to Hines and pulled up over a curb and got upon the grass and parked down here. They brought the President from somewhere around here, because this is a curb and a street all through here like the front of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to have to stop you a minute, Nancy, because I want to make what you have been saying clear to the people that read the record.

Mrs. POWELL. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you at this point where you think the entrance was that you were looking at, the entrance that you were near?

Mrs. POWELL. Right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the south side of the building?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes, it is on the south side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, you have drawn a line of some sort out of the north side of the building?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, you told me to show you where I thought they brought him out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. Now, would you make an arrow on that and then along the arrow that you have drawn, indicate the place from which you think President Kennedy’s body was taken? Would you write something to the effect, “Place from which President Kennedy’s body was taken”?

Mrs. POWELL. But I didn’t see it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have some idea. I am trying to get some idea in case you are not clear really on what entrance this is.

Mrs. POWELL. I am clear on the entrance. I know it is the entrance on the south side, and I know that is where a lot of reporters and people were going in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. While you were standing there, at any time did you see Jack Ruby around?

Mrs. POWELL. No. Do you want me to do this now? This is a curb.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I think it is good enough to leave it the way it is, and I won’t ask you to mark President Kennedy’s route.

Mrs. POWELL. I know where he came from, and it apparently must have been from here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The north side is what you are pointing to?

Mrs. POWELL. I was standing here, and when they came out, they had him in a hearse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw the hearse come by?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. It came from around the end of the building like this, and they came down this way through here and down Harry Hines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mark some arrows on that line so that we know it is the route of the President.

Mrs. POWELL. This is Harry Hines, and they went down this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark it for you so I will show you what I want. I am putting arrows along the route to indicate where it was, and I am going to mark this, “Route of President Kennedy’s hearse.”

I am going to mark this piece of paper that we have been working with here as “Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”

How long did you remain out at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. POWELL. Till they brought his body by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. POWELL. What I thought was his body. I mean, I didn’t see in there, but I know it was a black hearse and the curtains were drawn, and they had a motorcade, so I know it must have been him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. POWELL. Then I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?

Mrs. POWELL. I went back to Fort Worth, because my grandmother was very, very fond of the President, and she was pretty old, and I knew she would be very upset.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your friend back with you?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?

Mrs. POWELL. Pete.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his last name?

Mrs. POWELL. If you hadn’t asked me, I could have of told you. Devoire, D-e-v-o-i-r-e [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said he was from Tulsa?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does he do for a living?

Mrs. POWELL. He is a bartender.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was he working in?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, he was working in Enid whenever he went to Mexico, and I don’t know the name of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are working up in Oklahoma?

Mrs. POWELL. In Oklahoma City.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your friends back at your grandmother’s house when you got back there?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got back to your grandmother’s house?

Mrs. POWELL. My grandmother was cooking dinner, and she was really very shaken up about it. She was in tears practically, so I went in and we sat down and we ate.

We got up, and this girl did the dishes, and, of course, we discussed it at great length, and we all watched TV, I would say, until we got sick, just listening to it any more. I thought I was going crazy, but we sat up and watched TV until late that night. Then we went to bed, and the next day we watched TV again. They left the next day in the afternoon. They went on. But they stayed overnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after they left?

Mrs. POWELL. I didn’t do anything. Then I just did normal things that I do when I am at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t you go into Dallas Saturday night?

Mrs. POWELL. Oh, yes, I did. Why did I come over here that night? I had some reason for coming over, and I don’t know what it was. I forget what it was now.

I had to see Pappy, this agent here. I was going out of town. I know what it was, I was leaving on Monday to go to Oklahoma City to work, and I needed some money to go up there on, so I had to come over and got money from Pappy to go, and I called Little Lynn.

She used to ride with me until I quit, and I called her and told her that I was coming over here, and if she wanted to ride, she could, because she had to ride the bus. And she said she would like to ride, so I went by and picked her up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you pick up her husband also?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you pick her up?

Mrs. POWELL. She was supposed to be at work at 9 I think, so I must have picked her up around 8, between 8:10 or 8:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. POWELL. We came over and went to the Colony Club, and Pappy wasn’t there, so I went over to the--no, first of all, we went to the Carousel. When we got there, it was closed, and the other clubs were open.

This is unusual, because Jack didn’t believe in closing. So, then we went over to the Colony Club, and Pappy wasn’t there, so Lynn said she was going to call Jack. She needed some money, and he didn’t tell her that he was going to be closed.

But he said that he told Andy that he was going to be closed, and Andy was supposed to call her, and he couldn’t find her, or something; I don’t know.

She called Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had she gone to work the night before?

Mrs. POWELL. No. They were notified the night before that they weren’t going to work, but the next night for some reason they weren’t notified. I don’t really know why. But she wasn’t.

I think someone else showed up that night too. They didn’t know they weren’t supposed to work. I don’t know who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Another one of the dancers?

Mrs. POWELL. Another girl, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was working there?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. He had some girls at one time that I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay working there at that time?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she show up?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I just saw this one girl, and she was a new girl, and I think he just got her off the street somewhere just to fill in in the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joy Dale? Do you remember Joy Dale?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes, I remember Joy Dale.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she the one that showed up?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think much of Joy Dale, I take it, from your response?

Mrs. POWELL. No, because I read the article she wrote to a magazine, and it was a bunch of lies, and I don’t like people that lie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She wrote an article about Jack Ruby that wasn’t true?

Mrs. POWELL. If they can’t tell the truth, they don’t need to say anything at all, and she broke her neck to make all these wild statements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she use her own proper name in that magazine article?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. It was Joy Dale, is what it said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name that was used, Joy Dale, in the magazine article?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what magazine it was in?

Mrs. POWELL. In a little one. It made me sick. I didn’t even buy it. It had a picture of her and pictures of Lynn in there. It was a small type magazine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You all went from the Carousel Club to the Colony?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. I was looking for Pappy to get some money. We were going immediately back to Fort Worth, because I didn’t have any reason to be over there. Then we went to the Theatre Lounge, and I found Pappy and I got some money, and we got in the car and went back to Fort Worth and went out to the Three Twelve Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the Three Twelve Club?

Mrs. POWELL. On Lancaster in Fort Worth. (2701 E. Lancaster.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you get to the Three Twelve Club?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. It must have been around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay there?

Mrs. POWELL. Until they closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time was that?

Mrs. POWELL. 12.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. POWELL. Then I took them home and I went home, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You hesitate. Now, what did you do?

Mrs. POWELL. I either went home or went to the Cellar. I guess I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cellar, is that another club?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the Cellar?

Mrs. POWELL. Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you went to the Cellar?

Mrs. POWELL. Because I went to the Cellar sometimes because the Cellar was open all night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it an all night club?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes, sir. That is where the Secret Service men go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not in the Secret Service.

Mrs. POWELL. Pat said he would probably be called to ask him about getting them drunk on purpose. But they don’t have drinks down there. I had a rum and coke.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that rum extract?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes. Anyway, whether I went home or not, I may have gone by the Cellar, or home, one or the two. I really don’t remember. I can’t remember all those things away back then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember while you were at the Colony Club about Little Lynn and Bruce going out any place?

Mrs. POWELL. No; she made a phone call. Did I tell you she called Jack and asked him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that she called Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. Because I was with her. I didn’t go in the phone, but she called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did she call him?

Mrs. POWELL. From the parking lot. She said she asked him why he didn’t tell her that he wasn’t going to be open, and he got--this is hearsay. I mean, that is what she repeated to me, and I don’t know if I can repeat exactly what she said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she repeat it; at that time?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; right afterward. She was pretty mad, because she made the trip over and everything and they were closed, so she asked Jack why they didn’t tell her they were going to be closed. And she said that he started hollering at her, “Don’t you have any respect for the President?” And she said he was hollering and screaming and was real mad and said that she should have known that he was going to be closed. Anyway, she proceeded to tell him that she needed some money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much money did she ask him for?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I think $20 or $25. I think it was $25; I am not sure. And he was going to the synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know he was going to the synagogue?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, because I know he was going to the synagogue. Maybe somebody told me, but I know he went to the synagogue that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that he went that night? How do you know he went the same night the telephone call was made?

Mrs. POWELL. I think that is the night he went to the synagogue, really. I am saying this is a fact, you understand?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that was on Saturday night, or could it have been Friday night that you were at the Colony Club?

Mrs. POWELL. It was the day after the President was shot. What day was that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been a Saturday.

Mrs. POWELL. Well, that is when it was, because the first night they were closed up, and the next night they were all open except Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, did Little Lynn tell you that after her telephone call? Did Little Lynn tell you Jack said he was going to the synagogue?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t remember, but, okay, anyway, he was going someplace, and he couldn’t give her the money that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, what makes you think he was going someplace?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, he told her that he couldn’t bring the money to her until later, and she wanted to go out to his apartment and pick it up or something. I don’t remember, really, too much about it. But he told her that he would send it to her the next day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she get any money there at the parking lot?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the parking lot?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that Jack said he would send it to her the next day?

Mrs. POWELL. Because she said so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she tell you that?

Mrs. POWELL. When she got through talking on the phone, she told Bruce and I, because Bruce didn’t have any money, as usual, and they needed the money. She told Bruce that he said he would send it to her the next day. Because he was planning to stay closed, he told her, for 3 or 4 days, or until Monday, I think he said. Or I don’t remember. I think he was going to stay closed until Monday, or until after the funeral, he was going to stay closed. She could tell you more about that. But I know he was going to send her the money, because she told Bruce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure you didn’t stay up in the club while she made that phone call, at the Colony Club?

Mrs. POWELL. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have a pretty vivid recollection of being down there.

Mrs. POWELL. I know when we went, we stopped at the parking lot, when we went to the club, and it was closed. I know she made a phone call from the parking lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because I know she didn’t make it in the club. I don’t think she did. Hell, she may have. She might have; I don’t remember, really. All I know is what she came back and said after she got through talking on the phone. What she said is that Jack was real mad and was hollering, “Don’t you have any respect for the President,” and said that he couldn’t bring her the money right then, or something, but that he would send it to her the next day, something. And I know Bruce wanted to know if we could go by and pick it up, and we discussed that, but for some reason he was going to send it; I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember getting any money on Saturday night?

Mrs. POWELL. Her getting any money?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know where she would get it from, because she was with me, and we didn’t go any place to get any money. I didn’t loan them any money. I came over to get money from Pappy myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t Lynn borrow any money from Pappy?

Mrs. POWELL. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She was with you when you went to Pappy’s?

Mrs. POWELL. I think I cornered Pappy in the parking lot, and I think that they stayed up in the club, in the Colony Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody up in the Colony Club that worked for Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. Nope.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were any of his friends up there?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t remember whether I did or not. I remember seeing Abe. I don’t really remember. I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any stops between Dallas and Fort Worth on the way back?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go past Jack’s apartment?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some hesitation?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, the reason I am doing that is because I know there was some sort of discussion about going by there to pick the money up, which we didn’t. I don’t think we did. I think that we went directly to Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You hadn’t made any arrangements yourself to see either Jack or Ralph Paul Saturday night, had you?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph that day at all?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don’t think I talked to him that day. I don’t think I did. I may have, but I don’t think so. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were still dating Ralph at that time?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t remember that either. I was trying to remember. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I just can’t remember things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him the next day?

Mrs. POWELL. I am the one that called him and told him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you called him?

Mrs. POWELL. I was at home. He was at work, and a friend of mine called me and told me that Jack had done this thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called you?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know, one of my girl friends. Two or three of my girl friends. Betty, this friend of mine, called first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Betty’s name?

Mrs. POWELL. Betty Stowbaugh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else called you?

Mrs. POWELL. I think Barbara called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she?

Mrs. POWELL. Barbara Wagner. Why do you want to know all the people that called? It was on TV, and they called to let me know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else called you?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. 1 know those two called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn call you?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; but Betty called me as soon as it happened, before they knew who did it, and she told me to turn it on channel something real quick, and the TV was on already, but I had just gotten up, and I ran in there, and then they kept saying Jack Luey, and I thought well, that is not him. It was on TV. They said Jack Ruby did it. Then they said Jack Ruby, and I called Ralph and told him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ralph say?

Mrs. POWELL. He said, “No; he didn’t.” And I said, “Yes; he did.” “No; he didn’t do that,” he said. “He is at home.” And I said, “No; he is not. He did it.” So he said he would call the apartment, “And call you right back.” So, he called the apartment, and there was no answer, and he had a radio down there, and somebody came in or something on the radio and told him that it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know Ralph called Jack’s apartment?

Mrs. POWELL. He told me. That is what he said he was going to do, call the apartment. He said he was home and was going to call to see if he was at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. POWELL. I was there at the house and he said he would call me back. I don’t know whether I called him or he called me, but anyway, we spoke on the phone again, and he knew that it was Jack that had done it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you?

Mrs. POWELL. He couldn’t believe that he would do it. So he said he was going to come over right away to see about helping Jack, and wanted me to go with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t he mention that he talked with Jack the night before?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that?

Mrs. POWELL. He just said he spoke to Jack, and that Jack was very upset, and I think he wanted to go someplace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he want to go?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I think he wanted Ralph to go someplace with him or something special and Ralph didn’t feel like going or doing anything that night. He just didn’t feel like doing anything, and I think he talked to Jack two or three times that night and he kept calling him at home, and he woke him up a couple of times. I know Ralph felt bad about it because he felt if he had come over and gone out with Jack, maybe he wouldn’t have gotten into a state of depression.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, didn’t Ralph mention to you that Jack told him he had a gun and Jack was thinking about shooting Oswald Saturday night?

Mrs. POWELL. No; he didn’t tell me that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Don’t you remember him saying that over at the Bull Pen Drive-in when you went over there?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember him saying over there?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t remember him saying anything except that Ralph didn’t have any idea that Jack was even contemplating such a thing. He didn’t. I mean, I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because I know Ralph, and I know Jack, and I know that Ralph didn’t have any idea, because he and Jack were very good friends, and if Ralph had had any idea at all whatsoever that Jack was planning to do something like that, he would have stopped him, or tried to stop him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, don’t you think if Jack did have that sort of idea, that he would have told Ralph about it?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, no; not especially, because Jack is the type of person that is not too sure what he is going to do himself, because he is not too sure that he would tell somebody that he is going to do something at such and such a time, because he is not sure himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you all talk about when you got over to the Bull Pen that morning?

Mrs. POWELL. I just went to the Bull Pen and immediately got in the car and came over here, and we went down to the city hall, and we went in.

In the meantime, George Senator came down, and they arrested him, so the lawyers came over, and Ralph called Tommy Howard, or I think Tom Howard, and we were down in the police station to see Jack and see about him, and the lawyers came in a couple of hours, and they got us out of there right away, because they said they were afraid they might lock us up too, because they had already grabbed George and put him in jail. So, they took us across the street to the office, and we were sitting there hoping that what’s-his-name wouldn’t die.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to George at all that day?

Mrs. POWELL. No; we didn’t see George. He was in jail. He didn’t get out until that evening or that night. We were over there, and Tom Howard, I think, and another lawyer--I know Tom Howard went over and spoke to Jack. They called to see if they could, and he went and spoke to Jack, and then they came back.

In the meantime, we were watching TV and Bill DeMar got on there and said he saw Oswald in the club. And there was a Houston reporter over there asking me all kinds of questions. We were hoping and praying that maybe he wouldn’t die, so we were listening to see, and he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go from there?

Mrs. POWELL. Well, we left there and went back to--the drummer was over there--Bill Willis came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police station?

Mrs. POWELL. No; the lawyer’s office, and there was just people milling in and out that knew Jack. They were all around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Bill Willis happen to come?

Mrs. POWELL. He was down there around the police station and we saw him on the street and hollered, and he came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Bill Willis been down around the police station earlier?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. I saw him walking across the street. I imagine all the people came down when that happened, you know, but then we went back to the Bull Pen, I guess, and I got my car and I went home, I think. I don’t remember what I did afterward. I think I went home. I did go home, yes; I did go home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take off someplace?

Mrs. POWELL. I rode with Ralph to the Bull Pen, and I got my car and went home, and I stayed there. Well, he didn’t want to be bothered by reporters and all that, because they were poking around, so he went to some friend’s house to stay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because he called me and told me where he was going to be. He said he didn’t want to be bothered with a bunch of reporters, because Ralph took it pretty hard, because he liked Jack quite a bit and he took it pretty hard. So he went over to this friend’s house and he was over there, and then he went someplace else, and the FBI came and got him. And this Rose woman that worked for him, she cried and said he is like her father.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call Ralph, Johnny, at the Bull Pen?

Mrs. POWELL. No; Johnny is Rose’s husband. Rose was crying and called me up and was real upset, and the FBI had taken him and questioned him and wanted me to come over, and I had an interview on TV that night. She wanted me to come over there and go with her. She was crying and hysterical, so I went back to Arlington and got her, and we came to the police station, and they didn’t have him down there, so we got back in the car and went down to the FBI. They wanted to talk to me, because they asked Rose, when they got Ralph, if I was with him. So I went down and he questioned me and questioned her, and we went back to Arlington. They had taken him to the Arlington police station and questioned him. So then we went home and went to bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear from Lynn?

Mrs. POWELL. She called me that day that it happened, sometime during the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she have to say?

Mrs. POWELL. I am not even sure that it was Lynn; whether it was Lynn or Bruce. I don’t know. Just the same thing everybody was saying, “Did you know that Jack did this, and what do you think about it?” You know; what everybody asked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she mention anything to you about having talked with him that morning?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I don’t believe so. Gosh, it was so hard to remember, because so much happened in just such a short time, and being so involved like right here it is, it is hard to remember all those things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to remember a little harder.

Mrs. POWELL. What do you want me to remember?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What she said in the conversation.

Mrs. POWELL. Well, I don’t know. Something like, “Did you see Jack, or did you know Jack shot Oswald, or did you see him on TV,” or something. And I said, “Yes”; like, “What do you think about it,” or something. I am trying to remember something that happened on Saturday night. I knew that something was terribly wrong with Jack that Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because he wouldn’t close the club down for any reason at all, and he was very upset. I don’t remember now, but I remember making a statement to Bruce and Lynn on the way home that I didn’t know what he was up to, but he was up to something. I remember making that statement, because I know him like a book. But I had no idea. I had no idea that this was the thing he was going to do, but I just knew he was going to do something. But we were discussing it on the way back. But what I thought maybe he was going to do, a lot of people figured when this thing happened that the Kennedys were going to come down and close this town up completely, you know, so we figured that, well, that is the only thing.

I figured that maybe Jack was afraid that he might be closed up or something, so he was going to stay closed until after the funeral, or something like that. But I just knew he was going to do something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that you had heard that he had said or done that made you feel that way?

Mrs. POWELL. Nothing; whenever Lynn spoke to him on the phone and when she came back and told us what he had said, and then he was real upset, but the thing that made me think that is because Jack would not close down. We begged and begged him to let us off Christmas or Christmas Day, and there was no way he was going to do it. Ralph said he wouldn’t close the club down for anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He stayed open on Christmas Eve and Christmas night?

Mrs. POWELL. No; Ralph told him to close one day. I forget--it was more than two. We closed one or the two. I think it was Christmas Eve when he closed. Yes; it was Christmas Eve when we were closed. But I just knew he was up to something, but in my wildest imagination I didn’t dream he would do that. But I figured he had some reason for closing up that way. I was just shocked too, because I happened to remember making that statement to Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Lynn say?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t recall that she said anything. I know we were just discussing it in general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Bruce?

Mrs. POWELL. Bruce agreed with me that he figured that Jack was up to something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of guy is Bruce?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because he comes on like a junior jiver with a bunch of this hip talk. “Man,” and this stuff, and I don’t like this. And he doesn’t work, and Lynn was pregnant, and he beat her up all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living off her?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he prostituting her?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t think so; I really don’t know. I didn’t care enough to find out that much. I know she was working over here and riding with me, and he just beat on her, and her pregnant, and I don’t like it. So I can’t like men like that, so I don’t care for him too much. As a matter of fact, I absolutely don’t like him at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come back with you in the car?

Mrs. POWELL. Back where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back to Fort Worth?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; we all three went back and went to that club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you take them home?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Bruce have a car?

Mrs. POWELL. I think they were supposed to have a car; but it was in the shop or something, because she had been riding with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see anybody there at the club that night that works for Jack; friends of Jack?

Mrs. POWELL. What club?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The club that you went to with Lynn and Bruce.

Mrs. POWELL. No; just about everybody knows Jack. He knows so many people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce make any telephone calls from the club that night?

Mrs. POWELL. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce or Lynn ever say anything to you after Jack shot Oswald that indicated what they had done Sunday morning?

Mrs. POWELL. No; what did they do Sunday morning?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is my secret.

Mrs. POWELL. Tell me so I will know everything. I know that Jack sent her some money, but I didn’t find out from her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out?

Mrs. POWELL. I read it in the papers. I know that he sent some money just before he did that. That is what it said. It said everything in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Kathy Kay after Jack shot Oswald?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t think I saw her. She came to work in Oklahoma City while I was there. She worked up there with me. But I was there 2 weeks before she came up there. She never went back to the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why didn’t she go back?

Mrs. POWELL. Because she didn’t want to. Because for one thing, she had this boy friend that she had been going with that was a policeman, and they were going to get married, and his parents didn’t know she was an exotic, and her parents didn’t know she was an exotic--and there was some guy from England--reporters came to her apartment and wanted to interview her, and she didn’t want her family in England to know she is an exotic dancer, and she didn’t want to be involved in it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she tell you about her contacts with Jack over the weekend?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t recall that she told me anything about it. She was planning on going back to work when he opened the club, but before he opened the club, he did this other thing, so she never did go back. She told Ralph that she wasn’t going to come back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about her husband?

Mrs. POWELL. Whose?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy’s husband?

Mrs. POWELL. She wasn’t married then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean she--the guy she did marry, this fellow?

Mrs. POWELL. That is what they said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean she was living with him as man and wife?

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; I guess they got married. They said they got married.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he up there in Oklahoma City with her?

Mrs. POWELL. No; he stayed here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to how Jack got into the basement of the police department?

Mrs. POWELL. No; but he could get in anywhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that anybody helped him?

Mrs. POWELL. No; I don’t think anybody helped him. You just have to know him. He is probably a lot different now than he was, but if you had known him the way I knew him, and a lot of people knew him, he would do anything. They would have a ball game here every year, Texas-Oklahoma, and it sold out a year in advance, and all the tickets are sold the day before the game and he said, “I am going to the Texas-O.U. game.”

And I said, “How will you get in?”

And he said, “I will get in.”

And they are taking this guy off to jail, and as he passes by, the guy hands him the ticket, and they are selling the tickets for $25 apiece, and you can’t get them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information as to anything he told about what he planned to do?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ralph ever say anything which indicated----

Mrs. POWELL. Ralph did not know. I know that Ralph didn’t know he was planning to do that, or Ralph would have tried to stop him. I know Ralph felt badly because Jack wanted to go out and he didn’t go, and then he felt badly because he felt like if he had gone, maybe Jack would have confided in him and he could have prevented it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Little Lynn?

Mrs. POWELL. She didn’t know anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that?

Mrs. POWELL. Because after she spoke to Jack, on the way home she didn’t offer any comments or anything about why she thought he was acting that way. She didn’t know any more than anybody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She hadn’t told you that she learned anything later after she left you?

Mrs. POWELL. No; she hadn’t. I don’t know where she learned it from, because I took her home, and they don’t have a car, and it was 12 o’clock and the buses weren’t running.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you if this diagram, which I have previously marked as Exhibit No. 1, is a reasonably accurate diagram, if you will sign that?

Mrs. POWELL. Do you want me to sign Nancy Powell or Tammi True?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which name do you like to sign?

Mrs. POWELL. It doesn’t make any difference to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you sign Nancy Powell.

Mrs. POWELL (signs name).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else, Nancy, that you think we haven’t covered that might be of use to us?

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t know. We’ve spent a lot of time here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the girl that Jack thought had class?

Mrs. POWELL. Bell Praperall, was the girl he thought had so much class. And she came up to the club the last time I saw her, and she was drunk out of her mind, talking terribly vulgar, like some streetwalker, but this girl had class. She did. But Jack made the mistake of telling her that she had class, and boy, I am telling you, she talked there around like something else, but she didn’t end up with much class.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do one more thing. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. It is a copy of an interview that two FBI agents, Glenn Silvi and Dave Byerly had with you on November 29, 1963, in Oklahoma City. I want to hand it to you and ask you to read it and tell us whether that is an accurate report of what you told them on that occasion?

Mrs. POWELL (reading report). Well, I didn’t say that he had never associated. We went into discussion about these carnival people, and he had some dealings with some carnival people at one time. But I mean----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the sentence that says, “She said Ruby was not, to her knowledge, a gambler, and to her knowledge, never associated with carnival people?”

Mrs. POWELL. Yes; because at one time he had invested in a carnival show. They asked me if I knew this Slayton, and I told him I thought I knew him. Down here it says I said that I believed Ruby formerly had an associate named Joe Slayton. They asked me if I knew Joe Slayton, and I said I thought I did, that I thought he was a partner or something at one time. I never knew Joe Slayton at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, if you don’t have any other questions in that, to sign that.

Mrs. POWELL. I don’t like the way they said that, “An acquaintance with an exotic dancer.” Where do you want me to sign this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top.

Mrs. POWELL. Right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. POWELL (signs).

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Nancy Powell Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 3. That is a 3-page document which is a report of an interview that two FBI agents, Gary K. Wilson and Joseph G. Peggs, had with you on November 24 in Dallas.

Mrs. POWELL. I sure wish I had a cigarette. I didn’t know really I was going to be up here 10 hours. Very well, where do you want me to sign this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign on the first page at the top.

Mrs. POWELL (signs name).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you initial each of the other pages?

Mrs. POWELL (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Do you have any questions, Tammi?

Mrs. POWELL. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for spending all this time and coming all the way from Oklahoma City.

Mrs. POWELL. Well, tonight I will hate you. A little later I will be real mad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you working tonight?

Mrs. POWELL. Sure. I didn’t get off until 3 o’clock this morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you going to be able to make it back?

Mrs. POWELL. I have to do three shows tonight. I will get back just in time to go to work, and I have to do three shows. I don’t have to work tomorrow, though, Sunday. I am going to rest up all day and go out and see all the other people that have to work on Sunday. And I have to write a letter to the Commission.

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH LAWRY DOWE

The testimony of Kenneth Lawry Dowe was taken at 9:45 a.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again, my name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Routinely we explain to the witness before we proceed with your testimony, a little bit about what is going on here.

The President’s Commission was established by virtue of an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts, the Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to the President on all the facts that we find.

We have asked you to come here today in particular because you have had some contact with Jack Ruby. Of course, we are interested in anything you might be able to tell us about any of the events and activities that we are interested in.

Under the rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition.

I might tell you also that under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice before you appear here, and that is a written notice. Do you know whether you received a notice from us or not?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. DOWE. Two days or 3 days ago. Three days ago, I’m sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, if we haven’t complied with the 3-day written notice, are you willing to go forward anyway?

Mr. DOWE. Oh, certainly; yes, indeed; go right ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me before I administer the oath to you?

Mr. DOWE. No; not a thing in the world. It is self-explanatory, really. I am here to help if I can. I hope I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and I will administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mr. DOWE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state to the court reporter what your full name is?

Mr. DOWE. Kenneth Lawry Dowe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Dowe?

Mr. DOWE. 4617 Samuell Boulevard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?

Mr. DOWE. That is here in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas at the time President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I was. Just had moved here. I had been here about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you lived before that?

Mr. DOWE. Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me back off just a second. Would you tell us when you were born?

Mr. DOWE. March 10, 1941.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing in Atlanta before you came to Dallas?

Mr. DOWE. I worked for a radio station for Esquire Broadcast, WQXI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. DOWE. I was a diskjockey at the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work there?

Mr. DOWE. Approximately 10 or 10½ months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any appointments before that?

Mr. DOWE. I was here in Dallas before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whom did you work for in Dallas?

Mr. DOWE. Balaban Radio Stations, KBOX.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for KBOX?

Mr. DOWE. I was a diskjockey there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KBOX?

Mr. DOWE. About 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?

Mr. DOWE. Diskjockey in San Diego.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work as a diskjockey there?

Mr. DOWE. About 9 months. I was climbing radio markets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?

Mr. DOWE. I was with WABB in Mobile, Ala., and before that I was in college at Hattiesburg, Miss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What college was that?

Mr. DOWE. University of Southern Mississippi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Mississippi?

Mr. DOWE. Yes, I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have met Jack Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. I met him; yes; I think the second day I came to town. It must have been the second day, because I was being shown around the radio stations, and I met him that day. That was when I came to KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with you?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; Chuck Dunnaway introduced him to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long were you in Ruby’s presence?

Mr. DOWE. No more than 3 to 5 minutes--3 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to hear about Ruby between that time when you first met him and the time that you came in contact with him after the President was shot?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did. I heard that he came around the station frequently and that he was always inviting the diskjockeys up to his club, and that if I were to go up there, he would probably give me all the free drinks I wanted and be very nice to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever give you a membership card or pass to the Carousel Club?

Mr. DOWE. No; not a pass. I don’t recall him ever giving me anything. No; not a pass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any other reason that would give you occasion to remember your first meeting with Jack Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. None other than the fact that it was one of the first few days I was there. It was on that occasion that I met him. And also I was told that he was known around the station for procuring women for different people who came to town; record promoters. And this was a fact, and I was a little amazed at this, but nonetheless, that is what I know about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you told this?

Mr. DOWE. At the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasion that you first met him?

Mr. DOWE. That is the first occasion, right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say procuring women----

Mr. DOWE. I mean that he would get you a date with one of his girls in the club, or a girl that he knew or something, and I was told by Chuck Dunnaway that this was a fact, and that it was his understanding that several record promotion men came to town--record promotion men are people who work for recording stations, and it is their job to see that a record is promoted, and see if they can get air place at the radio stations, and these people frequently come to town, and they have very large expense accounts, and this was the reason I was told that he furnished girls sometimes for these people and for other people, different people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything said to you which would have led you to believe that Ruby was getting any money off of this?

Mr. DOWE. No; not at all. I hardly remember meeting the man. I only remember about what he looked like, and that his name was Jack Ruby, and that he owned a club downtown. I was pretty much preoccupied in other things at that time, and I just didn’t even--it almost passed me by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were at the time you first learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I was driving down Central Expressway, and I was listening to the radio station. I was about 2 blocks from KLIF, and we had a bulletin on the air that said there was a possibility he may have been shot, and they didn’t know and were checking further reports.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time was that?

Mr. DOWE. Shortly after 1 o’clock, as I remember it now. I don’t know exactly what time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you proceed to after you heard that?

Mr. DOWE. I went straight to the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work that day?

Mr. DOWE. I was there all day from that time until when I got off the air about 7 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do after you got off the air?

Mr. DOWE. I guess 1 went home. I usually do. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the Dallas Morning News downtown?

Mr. DOWE. No; I assisted the KLIF News reporter on that day, because of the tremendous overload. I fed news stories to our radio on the phone about the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in contact with your newspaper people out in the field on the 22d?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t know any of them except the newsmen that work for us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I mean.

Mr. DOWE. Was I in contact with them on the 22d?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. DOWE. On the 22d of November, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The day that the President was shot.

Mr. DOWE. Oh, yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, did you have KLIF reports at the police station and Dealey Plaza that were called into you?

Mr. DOWE. No; I was strictly taking reports written by the newsmen and calling other stations in the country and giving them reports.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were your newsmen getting their information?

Mr. DOWE. Some of them were probably covering the assassination. I recall one was at Parkland Hospital, and some were inside the station, and they were moving in and out all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of the newsmen who were inside the station who were passing information on to you, passing reports on to you?

Mr. DOWE. I got one report from Glenn Duncan. I remember that Glenn gave me one report; it seems that he did. The rest of them, I wrote myself. And at that time, I think it could have been Roy Nichols, because Roy, I believe, was at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t understand how you were writing the report yourself unless you were in contact with somebody who was giving you information.

Mr. DOWE. I was getting information off the wire service. We have a wire service of reports that I heard. In other words, I would listen to our report from the air, ad-lib them for the most part, and put together any statistics I needed off the unit press wire service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you got off the air at about 7 p.m., what did you do?

Mr. DOWE. I went home. I would imagine I must have. Maybe I was around the station for a little while, but I didn’t go any place besides the station and home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to work the next day?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; that day I was--I came in, of course, early. It was about 1 o’clock. I usually am there before 2:30 or 3, and my regular shift is from 3 to 7. And that day I was there from 1 to 7. The next day probably I must have gotten there earlier. I am sure in a situation like this I would have been there earlier. What time, I don’t know, but in between times I was only at the station and only at my house. The next day was Saturday, wasn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. DOWE. The next day was Saturday, so I came to work at noon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go right on the air at noon?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; we didn’t--there was no air work per se done by the diskjockey. There was constant news coverage of the events that had taken place, and we were just, I was just sitting there running the control board monitor gains and things like that. Purely technical. I was on from 12 to 6. That was my shift that day, same as today, Saturday, 12 to 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to hear from somebody that you subsequently believed was Jack Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. Yes; I did that afternoon. Honestly, it has been too long, and I have told the story so many times, that I am really not sure, so I am going to give you the facts as I remember them as of this moment. At that time I got a telephone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time?

Mr. DOWE. Four or five o’clock. It seems to me in the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time?

Mr. DOWE. Well, because I didn’t have but a couple of hours left. I watched the clock constantly. That was part of my job. I give the time every few minutes, or after every record. And it seems that it was around 4 or 5. We have an awful large number of commercials to be played on Saturday, and I was quite busy, and I don’t remember that day having anything to do, and it was a long time, and I had been on the control board for quite a while, so I remember that I had been there for a while, and it seemed like it was around 4 or 5 o’clock. The newsman was Gary DeLaune, or something. I have forgotten.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he at the time?

Mr. DOWE. He was in the newsroom sitting almost opposite me in the newsroom, and the first call I got, this person who said he was Jack Ruby said, “Do you know Gordon McLendon’s telephone number?” I said, “No, sir; I don’t.” And he said, “Well, that is all right, because I know it anyway, but I need to talk to him.” And I said, “Well, I thought he was some crank that had gotten our hot line telephone.” The hot line is a DJ number and only the personnel of the radio station should know. And I said, “I don’t know his number.” Because we are not allowed to give numbers on the air. As a matter of fact, I didn’t know his number. And he said, “That is okay, because we are good friends. I know his number, and I will call him, and this is Jack Ruby.” And I said, “Fine: Jack Ruby, that is good.” And I put the telephone back where it was.

A few minutes later I got another telephone call. I got two or three that day, but I am almost sure that it was three. Anyway, in the course of the next conversation or conversations, this person who said he was Jack Ruby called again and said, “I understand they are moving Oswald over to the county jail. Would you like for me to go over there and get some news stories? Would you like me to cover it, because I am a pretty good friend of Henry Wade’s, and I believe I can get some news stories.” And I said, “Just a minute, let me see,” and I tried to talk to Gary DeLaune who was in the other room, and I said, “The news department is busy, Mr. Ruby, but if you want to help us any way you can, we will appreciate it.” And I put the phone down and I turned on the intercom system and I said, “Gary, who the devil is Jack Ruby? He called me twice on the hot line, and I don’t know who he was, and he said I am the guy that runs the Carousel Club down the street. I said I remember I met him when I first came up.” He said, “He is just a guy that calls on the telephone and he knows everybody in town and maybe he can help us. That is good.” And I said, “Okay.” I had asked Gary if he wanted to talk to Jack, but that was before the same telephone call, but he was busy, and he said, “No, no,” like this. He was preoccupied. So, that was when I talked to Jack and told him if he wanted to help us, he could, and that is the last I heard from him. I found out later that night that he came up and brought some sandwiches and things, but I had been gone quite a few hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know it was later that night?

Mr. DOWE. One of the news people, I believe Glenn Duncan, said he was there. This was after Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything from your own experience that would indicate whether these telephone calls from Ruby came in the afternoon before Ruby showed up in the evening, or whether the telephone calls came in the afternoon after Ruby had showed up the previous evening?

Mr. DOWE. No; I don’t recall. I remember him telling me he had come down and brought some sandwiches. I thought it was at night. Glenn Duncan would know. He was there, at this time. I didn’t know. At the time of the telephone calls, I didn’t know anything about any sandwiches or anything about Jack Ruby. As a matter of fact, I didn’t remember meeting him. I wasn’t very impressed, evidently, or I would have remembered him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you learn that Ruby had brought sandwiches?

Mr. DOWE. After Ruby had shot Oswald and after they were discussing it at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that Ruby called you on November 23, that is, Saturday, rather than on Friday?

Mr. DOWE. I am absolutely positive it was Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you sure it was Saturday?

Mr. DOWE. Because I was on the air about 4 o’clock that afternoon, and there was nothing happening, and it was the second day. It was after the assassination, so it must have been Saturday. If he was assassinated Friday, he didn’t call me Friday, because he called me Saturday. I remember going over to Chuck Dunnaway’s house Sunday morning, and he said, “Ken, you should have been here a minute ago, because Ruby just shot Lee Oswald.” And I said, “Who is Jack Ruby?” And he said, “Some guy that owns a club downtown.” And I said, “Jack Ruby; that is the guy who called me yesterday. You must be joking.” I was amazed, and I remembered he had called me yesterday, because we answered the telephone constantly. I get many calls, and I wouldn’t have remembered if it had been any longer than a day or two. I would have remembered, but at that time it just hit me, and I said, “That is the guy I talked to yesterday afternoon.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remembered on Sunday when you first heard that Ruby had shot Oswald, that it was the day before that you had talked to him.

Mr. DOWE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you answered the telephone on these couple of occasions, did you at anytime give your name to Ruby?

Mr. DOWE. Probably; yes. I don’t remember doing it. I am sure I must have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall Ruby calling you by name?

Mr. DOWE. No; he did not call me by name. He asked me, now I remember, when I first answered the phone, he said, “Who is this?” And I said, “This is Ken Dowe.” And he said, “Is there a newsman or somebody? This is Jack Ruby.” And he talked like he knew me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the conversation did he use your name, or don’t you have any recollection?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t have any recollection. I don’t recall him using my name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time do you think separated the first telephone call and the last telephone call?

Mr. DOWE. I couldn’t honestly pinpoint it, by any definite number of minutes, but more than a few minutes. Likely less than 15 or 20.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did Saturday night, the night before Oswald was shot?

Mr. DOWE. No; I don’t remember what I did last Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain at home and watch television, or listen to the radio?

Mr. DOWE. Let me see. Sometimes I did. I have forgotten. I think I gave testimony to somebody what I did. I recall there was some peculiar circumstance that--no; they asked me what I was doing Sunday morning, and I finally remembered that I had gone to Chuck’s house because of the Jack Ruby thing and all, and had gone to eat some chili with them. But Saturday night, I don’t remember. Probably I was at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any notes of your experiences on the 22d and 23d and 24th?

Mr. DOWE. None whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make a tape recording of what your experiences were?

Mr. DOWE. No tape recordings; no notes. The station has a 24-hour tape recording going on of the proceedings that were on the air.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have them. We have copies of those tapes. Actually, we have the original tapes.

Mr. DOWE. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first talked with the police or Federal investigator about your experiences on Saturday?

Mr. DOWE. Yes. The first time I ever talked, I volunteered the information myself, because they called the diskjockey hot line at that time and asked what number this was, and I said, “This is Riverside 7-9316.” That was our hot line number at the time. I guess it was then. But regardless, anyway, they called the hot line, because he wouldn’t have answered it if they hadn’t. So, he said, “This is the FBI.” I don’t recall the name. And he said, “We found this telephone number in Jack Ruby’s possession, and we would like to know if you know anything about it, or know why he would have this telephone number.” And I said, “No; I don’t.” And he said, “Do you know anybody down there that he knows?” And I said, “Yes; I know he knows Chuck Dunnaway.” And he said, “Well, how can we locate him. We can’t find his telephone number. We have looked for him.” And I gave them Chuck’s telephone number. And I said, “By the way, for what it is worth, he called me the day before. I don’t know if that would do you any good. I am sure it wouldn’t, but if you are trying to put everything together, I wanted you to know that he did call me on the telephone.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had the police talked with you before that?

Mr. DOWE. The police have never talked with me. The FBI and Melvin; a private investigator for Melvin Belli, I guess that is all. The police never entered into it. As a matter of fact, it may be a good idea for you to check with his private investigator, of Belli’s, because I gave him a complete detailed outline of absolutely everything that I could remember that happened, and it was all fresh in my mind at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Belli’s investigator before you talked with the FBI?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To refresh your recollection, the first FBI interview----

Mr. DOWE. They were separated only by a week or so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI talked with you on December 14.

Mr. DOWE. I talked with him after that. I talked with the FBI first, and they weren’t too interested. I am sure it was the FBI that I talked with, and they said I gave them all the reports and everything of what I knew had happened, and I wasn’t in there more than 5 or 6 or 7 minutes, and he didn’t seem like it was too pertinent at the time. So, I gave them the information I had, and then I talked with this private investigator, whose name I have forgotten now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you talked with the FBI at the police station?

Mr. DOWE. Yes. I guess it was the police station. I talked with a gentleman whose name was Snooky, but I don’t remember his last name. It is kind of an odd name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you, Mr. Dowe, what I have marked as Kenneth L. Dowe Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. This is a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent John E. Dallman as a result of talking with you on December 14, 1963. It consists of one page. I am also going to hand you what I have marked as Kenneth L. Dowe Deposition, July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. DOWE. I talked to some FBI agents at the radio station. This was not too long ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, sir. This Exhibit No. 2 is a report of an interview that two FBI agents had of you on June 3, 1964. The agents’ names are Alfred C. Ellington, and Emory E. Horton. This report is three pages, and the pages are numbered consecutively and at the bottom, 38, 39, and 40. I will ask you to take your time and read these over.

I want to know first of all whether or not the reports accurately reflect what you said to the FBI on those particular dates, and whether there are any changes or corrections that you would want to make.

Why don’t you start with Exhibit No. 1 and let me ask you, first of all does Exhibit No. 1 accurately reflect there what you told them?

Mr. DOWE. To the best of my knowledge, Exhibit No. 1 is a pretty close and accurate record of what I remember, and probably it would be better to say between 2 and 5. It seems now it was around 3 or 4. It seems that, because I have--but 2 to 5 is better, and I don’t remember well enough to tell you it was at any specific time. That basically is as well as I can recall what happened, on report 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, that is Exhibit No. 1. Let me ask you to sign that up near the top where I have marked it. Right here is okay, anyplace that is conspicuous.

[Mr. Dowe signs.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Returning to Exhibit No. 2; does that accurately reflect what you told the FBI agent?

Mr. DOWE. No, not exactly. There are several things in here that maybe were misconstrued or they didn’t understand probably, or I didn’t understand the question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, then, to go through it and read the portion that you feel is inaccurate, and then make any improvements upon that portion that you want to.

Mr. DOWE. In the first paragraph, it says, “Dowe advised he had never visited Ruby’s nightclub and had never personally seen Ruby since that time.”

I don’t recall being asked any question like that. As a matter of fact, there was one occasion when I was in Dallas before, about 2 days before I left to go to Atlanta. Some friends took my wife and me out to dinner, and as a joke, we went to see one of the girlie shows, because my wife had never been there.

And we found out later, upon reminiscing, it was the Carousel, which was Jack Ruby’s, so I have been there at one time.

It says, “He also advised he has never seen Ruby on the premises of the radio station KLIF since the occasion he was introduced to him.”

That is true. I saw him that one time.

Now, down to paragraph 4, it says, “During this period, Ruby called the station on three occasions. However, it is Dowe’s impression that Ruby identified himself by name on only the last two calls.”

I don’t know whether he identified himself as Jack Ruby the first time, or whether it was the last two times.

And another thing that I have stressed in each interview is the fact that I don’t know whether he made two or three telephone calls, and it repeatedly says three telephone calls in his testimony. And that is only--I am just guessing. Two or three, I don’t know.

Over on what is page No. 39 it says, “It is Dowe’s recollection that on the occasion of the second call, Ruby inquired as to whether any of the newsmen from Station KLIF were in the vicinity of the Dallas City Hall, and on this occasion that the caller identified himself as Jack Ruby.”

That is pinning it down an awful lot. I don’t recall that I remember that much about it, really.

I advised the name Jack Ruby meant nothing to me, and inquired of some other employee of the station, who at this time I do not now recall.

I wasn’t asked that, but I do recall Gary DeLaune is the employee I asked the question, “Who is Jack Ruby?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, how does DeLaune spell his name?

Mr. DOWE. Actually, DeLaune is only the name he uses on the air. I don’t remember his real last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how it is spelled?

Mr. DOWE. I don’t know either. He is an entirely different department and he is usually in a mobile news unit, and I rarely see him, and I have never taken it upon myself to know what his last name is.

I might remember it tomorrow or something. I have seen it. It is vaguely familiar. I would know if I saw it, but I have forgotten. It is different. It is not a common name.

Then I see down here on also the same page that the telephone number of the hot line at that time was Riverside 7-9319, which I remember it was. It is not that any longer.

Also, this is something that I gave you at the same time in the interview today, that may have been incorrect, because I remember now, as stated here in this paragraph: “Dowe advised that on Friday, November 22, 1963, it is his present recollection he would have been on duty as an announcer at the station 3 to 7 p.m., and being a new employee, he was present at the radio station from approximately 10 a.m. to at least 7:30 a.m.”

This being true, I gave you a statement earlier that I was on my way to the radio station, and I thought it was about 10 after 1, because usually that is the time that I go in. Now, I don’t remember if it was 10 after 10 or 10 after 1 but as I recall this minute, today, it was more likely 10 after 1. I don’t even know what time the President was shot. I have no statistics in my head. I can’t remember which was which now. It’s gotten entirely too involved.

Down in the last paragraph it says, “Information previously furnished by them was possibly misleading regarding the number of visits by Jack Ruby in the premises of the radio station. However, he is pretty positive that he has never seen Ruby at the station except on his introduction to him.”

I can’t remember giving anybody any report saying I had seen him several different times. I don’t think I did, but I only saw him one time in the station. They had that earlier in the report to show that, really, it repeats itself, but that should make that correct.

With those corrections, that is as well as I can recollect at this time what is the actual truth of the matter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. To clarify this in your own mind, I think in the first report they had written referring to “he has been in Dallas for about 6 weeks, and after the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, he recalled that an individual who stopped by the radio station on a couple of occasions was Jack Ruby.”

Mr. DOWE. Apparently that was it. I might be misled on a couple of occasions. What I was trying to say was, that he had been by there on probably several occasions. I said a couple of occasions, but I only met him once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine, I think it is clear. I certainly have no mistake after listening to the testimony as to how many times you have seen him.

Is there anything else that we haven’t covered that you think we should have covered?

Do you have any other information that might be valuable to the Commission?

Mr. DOWE. Not a thing. It has been so long, that really after so many reports, I hope I haven’t confused you, but I think this is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you one further question, I think we neglected to ask you at the beginning. Are you presently employed with KLIF?

Mr. DOWE. Yes, I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your spending the time with us this morning.

Mr. DOWE. You are very welcome.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nice meeting you.

Mr. DOWE. Come back and visit Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I may be back.

Mr. DOWE. It is a nice place. Thank you for letting me come this morning. I am sorry I couldn’t make it this afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you please sign your name on Exhibit No. 2?

[Mr. Dowe signs name.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Thank you very much. Bye.

Mr. DOWE. Bye, bye.

TESTIMONY OF T. M. HANSEN, JR.

The testimony of T. M. Hansen, Jr. was taken at 1 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again for the record. My name is Burt Griffin.

Mr. HANSEN. G-r-i-f-f-i-n?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right. I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. HANSEN. Before we begin the actual testimony, it has been our practice to explain to you very briefly what this is all about. Then if you have any questions that you want to ask before we swear you in, why do that too.

The President’s Commission was established by virtue of an Executive order of President Johnson, which was issued last year in November, and also of the rules of a joint resolution of Congress.

We have been specifically directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that had to do with the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today in particular, because after the FBI interviewed you, when they interviewed you, you indicated that you had seen Jack Ruby on, I believe, November 22, and also that you had worked in the section near his club and were generally familiar with him. So for that reason, we have asked you to come here to testify and tell us what you can about Ruby. But also to tell us anything else that you might be able to provide on any of the other matters we are interested in.

Let me also say this. Did we send you a letter asking you to come here?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes; I have it in my pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive that letter 3 days ago or longer?

Mr. HANSEN. I have been on a vacation, and it was given to me the 22d by my captain in the traffic division, Captain Thompson. I just come back from a vacation of 20 days, and I believe it was sent while I was on vacation, and they set it up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see then, under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive this 3 days before we call you to testify. Are you willing to waive that 3 days?

Mr. HANSEN. I am willing to testify. I want to help you any way I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask this as a formal matter, and nobody has insisted on it. Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me before we proceed?

Mr. HANSEN. No; I don’t have any questions at all. I will try to answer anything you ask me as truthfully as I know how.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you please raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HANSEN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you give the court reporter your full name.

Mr. HANSEN. I have an initial. It is T as in Tom, M. Hansen, Jr. Initial T only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Officer Hansen?

Mr. HANSEN. I have changed addresses since all this occurred. At the present time I live at 1702 West Lovers Lane in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a member of the Dallas police force?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. HANSEN. I went on May 30, 1949, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What division were you assigned in November of 1963?

Mr. HANSEN. When this occurred, I was working in traffic division, in the traffic division about 11 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any particular assignment that month?

Mr. HANSEN. The day that the President came through?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you assigned?

Mr. HANSEN. I was assigned to Main and Akard, which is the corner I have been working for 11 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that near the Carousel Club?

Mr. HANSEN. That is two blocks, approximately, from the Carousel Club. The Carousel Club is on the corner of Commerce and Field, and I was working at the corner of Main and Akard the day that the President came through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, to the best of my knowledge, approximately in 1950 or 1951, I believe, Jack Ruby ran a beer joint that is what it was, a beer joint down here on South Ervay in the south part of town known as the Silver Spur. At that time when he was running this place, I had been working further south than that over in the colored district, and I was getting moved around. I was a young man, and a new man in the department, and I shifted around, and I went down on squad 41, which the Silver Spur was on that district, and all up and down this street at that time, that was one of your streets where you got your characters. If they were out, they was on that street.

We worked that pretty heavy, and naturally you worked all the beer joints and these places and dancehalls, and you get a little action up and down there. And I had occasion to go in there and check those places from the 400 block all the way out to Forest Avenue, and it just happened Jack Ruby’s place was in there. We checked him just like everybody, and that is when I first come in contact with Jack Ruby. I don’t even recall when he bought the place, but that is the first time I ever knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since then over the years, have you had occasion to see him from time to time?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes; I have seen him pass me on the street and he speaks to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you recognize him?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, yes; I knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anybody else that you know or have seen around Dallas who resembles Jack Ruby?

Mr. HANSEN. I imagine there is, but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you know of.

Mr. HANSEN. No; not that I could say looked just exactly like him. I am sure that somebody looks like him, but I don’t know anybody personally that looks just like Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, knowing him over the years, were there some incidents in which you came to learn that Jack Ruby had a finger bitten off?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes. I answered the call the night he got in a beef down there with some fellows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was that?

Mr. HANSEN. That was at the Silver Spur, the same one I referred to awhile ago. We answered the call, and there was a pretty good skirmish on the sidewalk in front. I can’t think of this fellow’s name, its been so long. There would be a record. The boy got a load, and I believe it was this one or this one [pointing to fingers].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either the second or third finger on his right hand?

Mr. HANSEN. I don’t recall just exactly which. I believe it was the left hand, come to think about it. I believe I remember I was shaking that hand, and I know it was hurting. The boy bit his finger and spit it out in the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see the boy bite it off?

Mr. HANSEN. No. I got there after he did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack with part of the finger missing?

Mr. HANSEN. Part of it missing, and the other part just hide hanging down. And I run this old boy down the street that was the one that was supposed to bite it off, and I finally caught him. We had a fight and I got him handcuffed. That’s been so long ago, I don’t recall his name, but I do remember his waving that finger and blood running, and he had a pretty chewed up finger. It was just stumpy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever come to find out what the fight was all about that provoked that?

Mr. HANSEN. Never paid much attention to that. We had stuff like that that went on all the time. It was sort of customary. If it wasn’t a finger, it was an ear or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack opened up the Carousel Club, how often did you have occasion to visit the Carousel Club?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, I never visited the Carousel Club regular or anything. I have been up there, and I would say during the time he had the Carousel Club up there, to my knowledge, maybe I went up there 9 or 10 or 12 times, I don’t know, just if I had somebody come to town I knew, or some boy I had known when I was younger, we would go up there and watch the girls dance and maybe drink a beer, and have a drink or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your acquaintance with Ruby, did you have any occasion to notice any kindnesses that he bestowed on people?

Mr. HANSEN. I did. Yes sir; I sure did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of the things you recall him doing?

Mr. HANSEN. I have seen Ruby, oh, I would say, three or four times, maybe five that I can recall, give money to a woman. I mean some woman or destitute woman he would see coming down the street. One time I recall vividly, it hasn’t been too long before this happened, maybe 2 or 3 months, I recall we were standing beside the Florsheim Shoe Store, talking, and he stopped and spoke to me, and there was a woman coming down the street, and I believe she had three or four children. Anyway, they were just bang, bang, bang, one right after another one, and looked worse than the wrath of God, and a milk bottle and Ruby said, “That is a shame.” And I said, “Yes; it is, Jack.”

And he walked across the street over there and stopped her, and I don’t know what he said to her, I didn’t hear him, but in the meantime, after he stopped her, I walked across over by there and he handed her a bill folded up and I couldn’t swear whether it was a 10 or 20. I know it had to be one of the two, because it had a zero, and I could see that on the corner. He handed her that money and he patted her on the back and walked back.

I have seen him several times previous to that give people that are destitute and in need, give money, and I know he is bighearted. I witnessed that, I know that. And I have heard a lot of people say that he helped a lot of people. That is hearsay, but this other, I know for a fact.

This one occasion--I have seen him several other occasions--one time at the bus station he was in the bus station and this woman down there had a whole slew of kids, about the same kind, and a bunch of us passed a hat and got that gal $40 to get her on out to California, and Jack kicked in on that, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him ever, or did you ever hear of his bestowing particular kindnesses on his employees?

Mr. HANSEN. I have never seen this. Now I have heard that several times employees would have hard luck of one type or another and he would send them money. And he would put a jar or a can up on the bar and people that knew about it, that knew the people, would maybe put in. There is not a doubt in my mind that if they put anything in the jar, that it went where it was supposed to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to talk with Jack or observe him under any circumstances which would indicate how he felt about being sensitive to being a Jewish person?

Mr. HANSEN. Jack was what I would say was a sensitive type of man. He is an emotional man. He is for the underdog always. And since all this happened. I have heard a lot of talk. In fact, he told me one time when he was 7 years old he sold newspapers and he had a fight to stay on the corner everyday. I believe he said in Chicago. He told me that out of his own mouth. I know it was some eastern city. I am not certain about the city. I am sure it was some eastern city. We have discussed politics together. He has brought up--we have had coffee together and he has talked about President Kennedy and about President Roosevelt, and he thought they were both great men in American history.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen--would he bring this up on his own?

Mr. HANSEN. He would bring it up about what they had done for the poor people and the underprivileged, and he thought very highly of both parties, both Roosevelt and President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to talk with him at any time after the Stevenson episode that took place here in Dallas?

Mr. HANSEN. I believe we did. Now, I am not positive. I believe we did. I don’t remember too much about it, but I believe we did, something was said or something about the discourtesy that was shown him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I started to ask you before about Ruby’s sensitivity to being Jewish. Do you recall any incidents or conversations with him about that?

Mr. HANSEN. No. I wouldn’t say he was sensitive to it. Now, you asked me that--we used to tell a lot of jokes to one another. I liked to kid around and joke. If I had a good Jewish joke, I would tell it as quickly to Ruby as anyone or anybody else, and Ruby would laugh at it. If he was sensitive in regard to it, he never let it show. And I would never say anything to anybody that deliberately, with the intention of hurting them due to race or anything.

I have had jokes told on policemen to me, and I figure if a fellow can’t laugh at himself, there is something wrong with him. But I have never seen him take a personal dislike to somebody for saying something about a Jew, telling a Jewish joke, or something like that. I have heard several said in front of him, and I have told him several, and he never took offense to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I now direct your attention to the activities of November 22. Did you work in your official capacity as a police officer on November 22?

Mr. HANSEN. The day the President was assassinated; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report to work that day, if you recall?

Mr. HANSEN. I believe we came in early. I don’t recall just how early we came in. I know we made detail early. Of course, everybody come in, and I was in there early. We went to change clothes, and I don’t recall just exactly what time we made detail offhand, but we were there early. We were told to go right to our corners and what to do and watch out for the safety of the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time on that day?

Mr. HANSEN. I am not positive. When I say I am not positive, I either saw Ruby the morning before the President came in from Love Field down Harwood to Main--I either saw him the morning that--I was going to the city hall that morning before we went to the corner, or the morning previous to that, I just don’t recall which. I have tried--in fact, I talked to an FBI man about it that interviewed me, and told him the same thing I am telling you. I don’t remember whether it was the day before or the morning of the parade.

And Jack spoke to me. He was beside the city hall on Harwood Street, and I started to go down the steps in the basement, and he hollered, “Hi, Hans,” and I hollered, “Hi, Jack.” It wasn’t much of a conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he on the same side of the street as the police department, or was he across the street?

Mr. HANSEN. No; he was on the same side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you come to the steps from Harwood Street, you can either walk down or up?

Mr. HANSEN. One of them goes up to what we call the wheel, and the other goes down in the department itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Both the up steps and the down steps are converged together at the sidewalk?

Mr. HANSEN. The down steps are narrow, about 10-foot wide, and the steps that go up are about 40 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this sidewalk that stretches in front of the up and down steps, where was it that you saw Ruby? Where was he standing?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, I can draw you a little diagram.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you a sheet of paper and you just draw.

Mr. HANSEN. Maybe that would help. This is the city hall. This is a square building. This is Main Street right here and this is Harwood Street runs right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you mark Harwood so that we know?

Mr. HANSEN. This is Harwood and this is Main right here. Now, right here in the middle of the block, this is these wide steps that go up right here. They go up this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have marked on there--I am going to sort of repeat this for the record so that the person reading can understand what is happening.

Mr. HANSEN. These are the steps right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on the Main Street side?

Mr. HANSEN. No; on the Harwood Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But on the Main Street side of the Harwood entrance? In other words, towards Main Street there is a set of down steps that go down?

Mr. HANSEN. About 10-foot wide. They go down like this, and underneath the steps, and then you go in the doorway. You want to know where I saw Ruby?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.

Mr. HANSEN. When I came across the street and turned to come down this way----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record, you are drawing on this map that you were on Main Street, and you walked across Harwood Street toward the police station.

Mr. HANSEN. I was walking east on Main Street across Harwood on the sidewalk and at that time I turned south on Harwood to go down to the entrance to go down in the basement of the city hall. As I approached the down steps to go down to the basement of the city hall on the Harwood Street side, I got about 8 or 10 feet from the north side of the steps and there is where I saw Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody standing there with Jack?

Mr. HANSEN. At the time that he spoke to me, there was several people up and down the sidewalk, and I think there was a uniform policeman and maybe two detectives standing along there talking to one another. I couldn’t tell you who it was, because I see it every day. I had no reason to make a special occasion to remember it, but I do remember there was somebody else along there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack standing talking to them or was Jack separated?

Mr. HANSEN. He wasn’t standing talking to them, but he wasn’t standing far from them, or he walked up or was approaching there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of day would that have been?

Mr. HANSEN. It was in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you reported to work, or after?

Mr. HANSEN. It was before I reported to work. I was in civilian clothes. I hadn’t suited out. I didn’t have my uniform on. I would say it was probably between 8:15 and 9:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a regular time to report for work?

Mr. HANSEN. When I go to work on a regular shift, regular hours, unless we are called in early or late, I have to be in the detail room at 9:45. Now, that means I have to be there ready to listen to the sergeant put out the poop on us and all of us come in anywhere from 8:30 until about 9 o’clock. Nearly all policemen come in like that and go to the locker room and shoot the breeze before we get ready to go out, about what happened the day before. So I would say it was probably between 8:15 and 9:30. That is as near as I can estimate it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you speak with Jack?

Mr. HANSEN. Oh, I never stopped. I just kept moving. “Hi, Jack, I got to go get ready,” something like that. And I said, “See you.” It wasn’t much of a, like I say, it wasn’t what you call a conversation. Just like a running conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that it could have been even 2 or 3 days before the President arrived?

Mr. HANSEN. No; I don’t think so. I think it was either the day before he arrived or the morning that he did arrive. Now, I can’t remember. I would give anything if I could, because I know it would help you folks, and I have thought about it since I talked to this FBI man 10,000 times. I am not going to say definitely what day it was. I can’t say it and be right in here [pointing to self].

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first remember that you had seen him shortly before the President arrived?

Mr. HANSEN. I didn’t even think anything about it until the FBI man asked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the FBI man happen to come out and interview you?

Mr. HANSEN. He didn’t come out. He come in the city hall and I was there. I don’t know whether he was interviewing everybody, and I think I said something about, I am not positive whether it was him or somebody said it. I heard so much going, it is hard to remember. Somebody said something about they had taken pictures and had seen pictures, and I don’t know whether somebody took a picture and he had a picture that he saw him, or saw him come down the sidewalk. They may have got it that way. And he asked me if I had seen Ruby, and I sit there and thought about it, and he wanted to know if I had seen Ruby that day or the day before, and I told him I had seen him on the sidewalk.

I believe I said the last time, and I thought back and that is the last time I saw him. I didn’t see him or hear anything about it until I was home in Arlington and it come out on the radio. My mother lives up there and I was at her home or in my home, and I walked up to her house and she said, “Have you heard what happened?” And I says, “What happened?” And she said, “A fellow killed Oswald.” Then that is when I heard about it. I didn’t know anything about it until then. I don’t think she even knew that I knew Ruby then, but when she found out I did, she got all shook up and excited.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any particular thing that you did on the day that you saw Ruby which you associate in your mind with the President’s arrival, or the day before the President’s arrival?

Mr. HANSEN. I have tried so hard to think of something that would make me know definitely which day it was. I have tried everything in the world to think of something that would make me think of something that would make me sure of what day it was, and I swear I can’t for the world of me.

I have thought of everything in the world of what I did, and I just had no reason to remember all this. If I had a reason, naturally that stuff would roll right back to you, but when you have no reason to remember, it is kind of hard to remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, after the President passed the place that you were stationed on Main Street, what did you do?

Mr. HANSEN. I stayed right there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain on duty the rest of the day?

Mr. HANSEN. I remained there until 6 o’clock, about 10 minutes to 6 that evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do that night?

Mr. HANSEN. I guess I went home. I don’t even remember. Yes; I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time?

Mr. HANSEN. At the time the President was shot, I was living at 1107 Mort Terrace, Arlington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work on Saturday?

Mr. HANSEN. No; Saturday and Sunday is our regular days off. I have an extra job on Saturday. I think I come to work that following Saturday at my extra job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you working?

Mr. HANSEN. I believe, if I am not mistaken, I don’t always work on Saturday, I worked three or four Saturdays, and then lay off and let another fellow work. I work at H. L. Green’s, which was formerly a 5- and 10-cent store. Now it is a dollar and 5-cent store. Kind of slow down stealing, and I believe I worked there that following Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to--do you know George Senator?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes; I knew George.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see George Senator at any time on November 22 or November 23?

Mr. HANSEN. I know I didn’t see him on the 22d. Now, I may have seen him on the 23d. The reason I wouldn’t remember this--let me go into this and clear it up with you all.

George sold postcards and novelties of various things to drug stores and places, and he had a little red, I think it was, a Volkswagen, and he replaced these postcards in the Walgreen Store at Main and Akard, and also one in the Adolphus Hotel. He used to come around the corner and we had a parking place where if you loaded or unloaded a truck, could park, but not passenger cars. And George used to pull in and he would service this rack with the postcards. It was very few days that George’s truck wasn’t in there sometime during the morning peddling his stuff around that end of town, so he may have been there the day before the parade.

I wouldn’t have any reason to remember that particularly, because I saw the truck so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The day after the parade is what I am talking about.

Mr. HANSEN. The day after the parade would be Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. Saturday I am not down on that part of town. When I come up to H. L. Green, it is up on the next corner of Ervay and Main, and I wouldn’t have noticed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember seeing George on Saturday, George Senator?

Mr. HANSEN. I might have seen him. Now, he comes down there and eats at the Eatwell Restaurant, and also to the Chefette on the side of the Adolphus Building. In fact, I have had coffee with him. Didn’t have any reason not to. But whether I saw him that day or not, I am trying to remember whether I did or not--I may have saw him, but I couldn’t say for sure. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of Ruby’s employees? Let me sort of run down--Tammi True?

Mr. HANSEN. The stripper. Well, I know them when I see them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Tammi True on Friday or Saturday before the President was shot?

Mr. HANSEN. Not that I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Little Lynn?

Mr. HANSEN. I don’t think on Friday or Saturday that I saw any of the strippers that I would recognize, or if they may have been out on the streets in civilian clothes, but I just noticed them when they were in their act, and they look a little different when they are out dressed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t work--you say your day off was Saturday. Did you have occasion to go downtown at all Saturday night?

Mr. HANSEN. I get off--I may have. I may have. Let’s see. Saturday night back when the President was assassinated, I believe they had Saturday night fights. They were having them then on Saturday nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall--are you a fight fan?

Mr. HANSEN. I used to always watch Saturday night fights, and I know a few nights that I watched them from Saturday to Friday, I used to go down to a beer joint and watch the fights on every fight night, and I don’t hardly miss a fight if I can help.

That and the Untouchables is about all I look at. If they were having fights on Saturday night, I may have left my job after I got off and went down to the place on Poydras Street. And if they were having the fights--if they haven’t, I couldn’t tell you what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask specifically if you recall seeing Little Lynn on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. HANSEN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing Kathy Kay on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. HANSEN. I don’t recall seeing any of them; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. HANSEN. Ralph who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Paul, Ruby’s financial backer. Ralph Paul.

Mr. HANSEN. I am satisfied I have seen him, but I couldn’t tell you what he looks like, and I wouldn’t recognize him. 1 have heard of him, but as far as knowing him or ever having coffee or talking to him, not to my knowledge, no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. One other thing I would like to do is, I am going to mark for identification a copy of the FBI interview report that they prepared after talking with you on November----

Mr. HANSEN. Can I read that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to give it to you. I am going to mark it and I will hand it to you and you can read it.

Mr. HANSEN. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a four-page report. It is numbered at the bottom pages 31, 32, 33, and 34, and I am going to mark on the top of the first page here, “T. M. Hansen, Jr., Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”

Take your time and read it and if there are any additions or corrections that you want to make in there, feel free to make them.

Mr. HANSEN. This is a report that this fellow from Wisconsin took from me, this FBI man?

Mr. GRIFFIN. His name is Dallman.

Mr. HANSEN. Yes, he is a nice fellow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you are reading that, I will dictate for the record that I am also marking the diagram which Officer Hansen has drawn for us. “T. M. Hansen, Jr., Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.”

Mr. HANSEN. One thing I want to call to your attention. On this second page--you asked me about his Jewish background and here he says in this statement, it says he considered Ruby to be a fairly emotional individual and recalled that on one occasion at the Silver Spur Club, Ruby hit a man who made a derogatory remark concerning his ethnic background.

I believe that he has made a little error in here. I told him, this FBI man, that this did not happen at the Silver Spur. I may have said the Silver Spur, but I am wrong.

Just before President Kennedy was assassinated, Ruby was in the Burgundy Room, which is located off the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel and it is a cocktail room, and it is run by an individual, and there was nothing said about his Jewish background. Well, there may have been, too. I don’t know, but what some fellow, I don’t know who he was--I heard this, and Ruby even told me that he knocked the hell out of him. This guy got up and called him a queer, and Ruby really slaughtered him. I believe he is capable of it, because I have seen him go and he is a little fat boy----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same night he had his finger bit off?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes. I don’t recall whether it was that same night that I saw him fight before, but when we pulled up, he had two down as big as I, and he gave me----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the fight with the four?

Mr. HANSEN. That happened out in front of the Silver Spur, but this is the year before this. This occurred in the Burgundy Room. I didn’t witness this. This is hearsay, but I know it happened, because I heard it from too many people.

I don’t know whether he called Jack a queer or a Jew queer, but Jack made him a new set of teeth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are not sure whether this was in reference to his Jewishness.

Mr. HANSEN. That is what I am trying to get over. I don’t know for sure whether Jack told me what he said. I know he said he called him a queer. Jack told me that out of his own mouth.

I don’t remember whether he said “He called me a Kike queer,” or something like that. He might have said that, or maybe said, “Jew queer.” I don’t recall exactly, but I do remember the queer part of it, and Jack said, “and nobody would talk to me like that.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack seemed to be very concerned that people would think that he was a homosexual?

Mr. HANSEN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your experience with him?

Mr. HANSEN. Just like I told this man, he never come out and asked me direct. He kind of fished around.

I said, “Do you want me to tell you what I think is a homosexual” and he said, “I didn’t ask you.” And I said, “Well, you are fishing. If you want to know what I think, I don’t. I still don’t.”

And I wouldn’t say that about anybody I didn’t know. I would have to witness an act or to see it about a man or have somebody I knew who wouldn’t lie one bit have to tell me.

And if he was, which I have no reason to believe he was--I know being a policeman I have come in contact with all kinds that play the female role and the male role. I can show you several of those muscle boys, big and stout and tough, what we classify as masculine type.

I have had ahold of several, and they are hard to get in custody. I have no reason to ever say that about Jack. I have heard it said. I have heard it several times said, but a lot of things are repeated that are not so.

Like I say, at night, I worked that district. I would come by there after everybody is out of his joint, and his front door would be open, and he would be icing out his beer. I would walk up to the door and see if the boy was doing anything and would go in, and several times nobody would be in there with me.

He never made any motion that would be wrong, and as long as I knew him, he never said anything to me that would indicate that in any way, or anyone that I have known that knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that indicated to other people that made other people say this about him?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, you asked me why I think somebody said that, is that the question?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HANSEN. Jack talked--as long as he lived, he never got away from the Yankee accent. Nothing personal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think the Yankees have an accent. It’s the Southerners.

Mr. HANSEN. Well, you know what I mean. Jack was kind of a talker and he would be talking to you, and maybe he would stop and wouldn’t say anything for a couple of minutes, and then he would start off and run words, and it was hard to keep up like that. But he talked in a high pitched voice of which a lot of homosexuals also have that tone to their voice.

I think you will agree that you see a lot of people talk like that, but there is indications when you see people talk, and there is no doggone thing--he had that high pitched voice and if he got excited or nervous or something, then that would get worse, that pitch to his voice. He is the kind of fellow if, and of course, policemen are kind of hardhearted--a kid, when I see them hurt, it hurts me, too, but I can pick up a kid and it would hurt, but I wouldn’t cry unless it was my kid. But Ruby was the emotional type of man, and I am satisfied, if he had to do it, I am satisfied he would cry over something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen him cry?

Mr. HANSEN. I sure have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When have you seen him cry?

Mr. HANSEN. I have seen him cry, and fight and cry, and fight and cry after. He would fight and cuss up a storm and cry. He is very emotional.

As long as the chips are down, he had to go, and then kind of break down. That is his reaction. I have seen that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he be crying about?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, I don’t know. I never have cried like that. I don’t know why he would cry, unless I guess we are all emotional people. Some people control their emotions, and other people can’t.

We have all got a breaking point. Some of us go longer than others, and I guess he is that kind that gives way and shows his emotions more than other people.

I can’t recall offhand seeing a man that was as good a man as he was physically. But as far as emotional, he would go from one extreme.

Ruby is a little potbellied man. They say he has lost a lot of weight. Jack did calisthenics regularly. It was a religious thing with him. He did so many setups and so many pushups, and he will tell you about it. He did 125 pushups.

And I am satisfied, because when you get hold of him, he was a lot more man than his size would indicate, and I am satisfied he did breathing exercises, and he believed in that.

He used to get on me all the time and say, “You are getting too much belly. You got to get that off.”

He had a lot of heart. I mean, that is my personal opinion. He had a lot of heart.

I think the old boy--this is just my personal opinion in knowing him--I think his background and the way he was raised and where he was raised, I don’t think he had everything. Everybody was trying to kick him down, and he had to scratch hard for everything he got.

And like I said, he is for the underdog all the way. If he saw somebody that was down, he would reach down in his pocket and help. He is just that kind of man.

Also, I think Jack would like to have amounted to something. He would have liked to have been respected or looked up to. He would like to help his social status.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever say anything to you that indicated that?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, not directly, but in conversation with him, he could tell he would like to get up. He would like to be somebody. He was an ambitious man, and yet he was humble. He was humble.

He knew in his own mind that he didn’t have the education to be where he would like to be, but still he wanted to be there. That is the impression I got from knowing him the short period of time I have known him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your telling us all that.

Mr. HANSEN. Well, that is just my personal opinion. That is the picture I got of Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have known him since 1949?

Mr. HANSEN. No. I went to work in 1949. I have known him since--I am not going to say positive. I believe he bought that place about 1950 or 1951, to the best of my knowledge. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a year would you have seen him since then?

Mr. HANSEN. Of--gosh, maybe--it would be hard to say--maybe I would go 2 or 3 months and may not see him, and maybe I would see him 3 or 4 or 5 times a week coming down the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there times when you would spend as much as an hour with him?

Mr. HANSEN. I doubt if there would be that much time. I think about, as long as I have spent with Jack would be--I may have sat and had coffee with him 15 minutes.

I think one day he come over to the Florsheim Shoe Store. I had bought some shoes, I had some made, and they were a width and a half sole, and I was telling how good they felt on my feet. And Jack got to looking at them and said, “They look good. I am going to get a pair.” And he went in and had, I believe, at that time--I don’t know whether they had a manager named Reed there or the man was named Kelly, I forget which was there.

Anyway, Jack went in and they measured him for a pair. He liked the ones I had on. They were dress shoes, and I tried to break them in on the corner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you visited the Carousel socially, he would come and sit down?

Mr. HANSEN. No. I would say maybe I would go in and stay an hour or 2 hours, but he was always busy. Maybe he would come over to the table and say, “You want anything, Hansen?” And several times I went in there and I would have a setup or something, and he wouldn’t let me pay, and tell the girl, “That is on the house.” I don’t mind telling you that, because I have been a lot of places and people do the same thing.

I never went with the intention--anywhere I go I can pay my own fare, but sometimes people do that. I went down to the restaurant the other night, carried my wife, and we had a nice dinner, and he told me “That was on the house.” He wouldn’t let me pay for it. But like I say, I go in there and eat, I guess I have been in there six or eight times, and I have always paid. That is the first time it ever happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went to the Carousel Club, would Jack come over and sit at the table?

Mr. HANSEN. No; he never fraternized with his customers outside of being polite and greeting you and that. I mean, as far as coming over and sitting with you and shooting the breeze, to my knowledge, he didn’t do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, is there anything else in Exhibit No. 1 that you have been looking at that you feel should be corrected?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, there was something else I saw in here, and it was about this day thing that we was trying to discuss about what day it was, and I see here----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The last page?

Mr. HANSEN. I think it is the third page. I think it is on this one. Ruby was standing on the north side--that is what I just told you--of the entrance directly to the side of the stairway which leads to the basement. He said there was four or five individuals. I think awhile ago I told you there were three. I know there were a few. I may be a little bit off. I am trying to get it just about as true as I can remember it--standing at this time. He is not certain whether or not they were police officers.

I believe they were police officers, or there was two of them. I know there was a uniformed man in civilian clothes, and I think they were detectives. I believe they were. He felt that the crowd was apparently gathered at that time in anticipation of the fact that President Kennedy would be driving through the downtown section.

I am not doubting that man’s word. That is just what I told him. If that is what I told him, that would indicate to me that it was on that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did the crowd gather as early as 8:15 for the President’s motorcade?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, to my way of thinking, I would say you asked me a direct question. Every parade that I work, I work so many parades downtown, usually any kind of parade, if it is like you start at 10 o’clock, your colored people come, they are the first ones, because they are going to have a front row. Before anybody comes to work, they are down there. Then you got the ones that, the mommas that haven’t washed the dishes, and then the poppas, and I am satisfied it was that same way that day. But from this here, to me, that would indicate that that was that same morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a clear recollection at that time that it was that morning, or were you just surmising?

Mr. HANSEN. I don’t, but I do recall this--I don’t have a clear recollection now, but you know, there is a little concrete thing around the city hall up there about this high, and they got some flowers in there, and on a normal day, just any regular run-of-the-day week, I mean a day in the week, you wouldn’t find anybody sitting on that thing unless it is men that work for the schools and get their paychecks. I do recall there were four or five people, come to think about it. I remember they were spotted. Maybe a guy sitting here, and there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The fact that there were four or five people, that makes you think it was the day of the motorcade?

Mr. HANSEN. Well, a normal day, like I said, Monday through Friday, there wouldn’t be anybody sitting on there unless it was a day that the old men come down to get their paychecks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been on Thursday?

Mr. HANSEN. It would have been more than four or five, because I can’t help but remember because they blocked the whole sidewalk and spit snuff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that makes you think it was the day of the President’s motorcade?

Mr. HANSEN. Nothing else that I can remember outside I do remember there was several people sitting on that, which is unusual unless there is something going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be willing to say positively that it was the day of the President’s motorcade?

Mr. HANSEN. No; I wouldn’t just make a flat statement, because I don’t feel like I can. I am not that positive. But like I say, an ordinary day, unless there is something going on, ordinarily there wouldn’t be anybody sitting on that little stone railing around there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your mind, is there just as much chance that it could have been the day of the motorcade or is there just as much chance it could have been the day before the motorcade, as the day of the motorcade.

Mr. HANSEN. No. The fact that there were some people sitting on the rail around there would indicate, it would make me lean toward the day of the parade. But I am not going to make a flat statement it was the day of the parade. But it would make me kind of think maybe it was that day. That is as good as I can give it to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I am asking you questions like that is so we can evaluate whether we should make a flat statement about it or how we should treat it.

Mr. HANSEN. I don’t want to make a flat statement, because I can’t connect anything in my heart, but it would make me think it was, due to the fact the people were sitting on that thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate that.

Mr. HANSEN. I am trying to help you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I appreciate your frankness on it. Let me ask you if you are satisfied that this report otherwise is an accurate report of what was said.

Mr. HANSEN. Let me show you. Everything but here. I think I remember telling him this, but I think that he--I am not trying to put it off on him, because he isn’t here, but I think the FBI man got this Silver Spur Club mixed up with the Burgundy Room, or else I meant the Burgundy and told him the Silver Spur, but this is where it happened. And I am sure if you check through it further, that you can find out that this actually occurred about this remark about this boy calling him a queer and Jack knocking him down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it is clear enough that the record she is typing up here will show all the corrections that we have talked about here, and that is what we are trying to do, is get that into the record. Let me ask then, if you will, if you are satisfied that other than what you have pointed out as being incorrect, that this is an accurate report of what you told them, I will ask you to sign.

Mr. HANSEN. I think it is pretty accurate. Where do you want me to sign it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it up where I have marked it, anywhere in a conspicuous place.

Mr. HANSEN. Sign this Timothy? Occasionally people call me Tim, but I don’t know where he got Timothy. It is plain T-i-m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s cross that out.

Mr. HANSEN. Let me ask you, do the other policemen sign these things?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. If you don’t want to, it is simply a formality that we go through, and if you would prefer not to sign----

Mr. HANSEN. Have any of the rest of them preferred not to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there haven’t been any that declined to.

Mr. HANSEN. I have no reason not to sign. I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only reason we are doing is to establish for people later on.

Mr. HANSEN. You want me to sign each page?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will, just initial the other sheets. We are simply trying to establish for our own record that the documents that we have been talking about is actually the document that winds up in the record.

Mr. HANSEN. I have helped you as much as I possibly can, and I was figuring you would call me up and were going to ask me about the parade, and all I can tell you is, I saw that the parade got through and he didn’t get hurt, and I believe it would have broke my heart if something had happened to him, because I never was so glad. It is just like a man took a hundred pounds off his back. And before he got there, of course, people ran and I was sweating blood, and I was afraid of something, but when he got through there, it was just like somebody took a heavy load off you.

And when I heard about what happened, I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t, like everybody else. A man came from the stock exchange and whispered in my ear, and I knew he was either drunk or lying, and I knew he didn’t drink. But I realized then, I began to--I guess you have a dull feeling in your mind that you realize the President had been shot.

Then when you put the two together and hear all the sirens, you knew it actually happened. A policeman--because he’s got an instinct about it. The first siren I heard, I said, “Well, that is bad, but I saw one on Akard and a man don’t drive that way unless he is going to another officer or something real bad. I had a bad feeling, or actually I didn’t think--I thought somebody may have tried something, and it never entered my mind that he actually had been hurt.

Then when that fellow told me, it was awful. I never will forget that day. I never saw people look like that, walking around like a bunch of mummies. It is hard to even talk about it now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer, I appreciate your taking all this time.

Mr. HANSEN. I hope I have helped you, and if I can do anything else for you, let me know.

TESTIMONY OF DAVE L. MILLER

The testimony of Dave L. Miller was taken at 8:50 a.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will introduce myself again. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

We have a routine procedure before we actually take the testimony, of explaining to the witness a little bit about what the Commission is attempting to do.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, issued on November 29, 1963, and a joint resolution of Congress.

Under these two official acts, the Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate all the facts they find and report back to the President of the United States.

Now, the reason that we have asked you to come here today in particular is that you have known Jack Ruby for a period of time, and we are hopeful that you can give us some insight into the kind of person he was, and also some information concerning his activities shortly before Oswald was killed.

Under the rules of the Commission, I have been designated to take your deposition specifically. Also, under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice before we ask you to appear here. I believe we sent you a letter?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you received the letter?

Mr. MILLER. I moved from where I was. The letter was sent, and the landlady called me Tuesday, and I went by the post office to get the letter which had been sent special delivery, and the mailman carried it, and I received it on Wednesday. But prior to that, Mrs. Stroud called me and notified me I was to appear up here this morning, and I have the letter at home. I called her and told her I had received the letter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask me before we go ahead with the testimony?

Mr. MILLER. No; you just go ahead and ask me the questions, and I will answer them as truthfully as I know, and what I told the FBI when they were here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MILLER. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your full name?

Mr. MILLER. Dave L. Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Miller?

Mr. MILLER. 5323 Live Oak, Apartment 105.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Since 1918.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. MILLER. I have a cleaning and pressing shop on Commerce Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name?

Mr. MILLER. Enquire Shine & Press Shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the address of that on Commerce?

Mr. MILLER. 1322 Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is that from the Carousel Club?

Mr. MILLER. About three doors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. MILLER. May the 26th, 1909.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Jack Ruby, don’t you?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Ruby?

Mr. MILLER. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet him?

Mr. MILLER. He had taken over the Carousel Club and brought some clothes for me to clean for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see him fairly regularly after that?

Mr. MILLER. He would bring his clothes in two or three times a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when Jack Ruby asked you to put up a sign for him, or do some other advertising for him?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that, if you recall?

Mr. MILLER. That is when he first changed his club into the striptease. He had some little, you call them little pages of folders--not folders, but advertising, and I just put them up for the public.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it newspaper advertising?

Mr. MILLER. No; he had them printed himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Handbills?

Mr. MILLER. Handbills; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put them in your store window, or on the walls, or what?

Mr. MILLER. We put them in the window at that time. Later on, Mr. Ruby fixed a stand and we had pictures of that type on it, and I put it in my window at night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Ruby pay you anything for doing that?

Mr. MILLER. He has at times, would give me something. Sometimes $5, just like an accommodation thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to talk with Mr. Ruby about any of his problems that he was having?

Mr. MILLER. No; he never mentioned anything to me about his problems.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever have occasion to talk with you about his competition, the Weinsteins?

Mr. MILLER. When he first changed to striptease, he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you, if you recall?

Mr. MILLER. Well, it seemed that the Weinsteins didn’t want him to have a striptease, and he was going to show them he was going to stay in the business. That was the only thing that he said anything about the Weinsteins.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby tell you that the Weinsteins didn’t want him to have the place, or did you hear from some of the Weinsteins, or some place else?

Mr. MILLER. Jack Ruby told me himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What hours is your shine and press shop open?

Mr. MILLER. I am there from 6 in the morning until 6 at night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that 6 days a week?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing him sometime before he shot Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MILLER. Well, of course, I would see him almost every week, but prior to the time of Lee Oswald, the day the President was killed, he come in the place around 5:30, I imagine, and I had been putting the sign in the window, and he asked me not to put the sign, because he wouldn’t be open until after the funeral.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you estimate that it was 5 or 5:30?

Mr. MILLER. It was late in the evening, because it was pretty close to my closing time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been earlier than 5 o’clock? Could it have been as early as 3:30 or 4 o’clock?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that?

Mr. MILLER. Because, like I say, it was late in the evening, and I was getting ready to close up, because we start getting the shine stand cleaned and was going through that procedure at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were putting the sign in the window?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sign were you putting in the window?

Mr. MILLER. Well, he made a stand and put pictures of the girls and who was the master of ceremonies, might have been, and, of course, he has that at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put the sign in the window every night, or did you leave it up all the time?

Mr. MILLER. Take it down during the day, and put it up at night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why you took it down during the day?

Mr. MILLER. It was in the way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you have any sort of routine as to when you would put the sign up?

Mr. MILLER. Put it up just before closing time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been later than 5:30 in the evening?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that with a positive voice.

Mr. MILLER. Because I know it could have been no later, because he had come in there about 5 or 5:30, about the time he was in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that this was on November 22, the day the President was shot?

Mr. MILLER. It was on November 22; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did Jack Ruby say to you on that occasion when he came into your shop?

Mr. MILLER. He come in and says, I feel he had been crying because his eyes were real red, and he said, “What do you think of that s.o.b. killing the President?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mr. MILLER. I told him it was a dirty shame that the thing had happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack remain there talking to you?

Mr. MILLER. Just less than 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention to you anything about where he had been that day?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before he walked into the shop? That is to say, did you see him walking down the street to your shop?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; because where our cash register is back in behind, I couldn’t see him walking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he left your shop, did you see what direction he went when he went out the door?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; didn’t pay him any mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you where he was going when he left?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again after that?

Mr. MILLER. I saw him Saturday night approximately the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him on that occasion?

Mr. MILLER. He come in the place that evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say when he came into the shop that evening?

Mr. MILLER. Nothing I can remember. He said he was coming in to ask me how I was feeling, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain?

Mr. MILLER. Just a very short time. Maybe 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about what he had been doing?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you any indication of where he was going?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have anybody with him at that time?

Mr. MILLER. He was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the first occasion that he came in on Friday, did he have anyone with him on that occasion?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; he was by himself at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he came in on November 22, the day that the President was killed, was there anybody else in the shop?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the shine boys and the pressers, and I think one of the boys was shining a man’s shoes. Just don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked with the boys in the shop about Jack having been in there on those two occasions?

Mr. MILLER. You mean since I got this letter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; since November 22.

Mr. MILLER. No; I haven’t said anything to them. Of course, one boy has been with me a long time. He would remember him coming in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which boy is that?

Mr. MILLER. Sam Hicks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Sam to know whether he does actually remember?

Mr. MILLER. I haven’t said anything to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Doesn’t your brother--isn’t there another Miller? Is that your brother?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Izzie Miller, have you talked to him? Does he remember?

Mr. MILLER. He doesn’t stay around too much at the place down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he was present on these two occasions?

Mr. MILLER. No, he wasn’t there them two times; no, sir. He had had a heart attack, and he takes it easy, so he won’t come down too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think any of the other employees besides Sam Hicks might have seen Jack on that occasion?

Mr. MILLER. Well, you know them shine boys, they come and go, and I would have to go back and look in my book I keep on them as to who was working at that time.

Offhand, I couldn’t say. But I know Sam Hicks was working at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI report of the interview that they had with you sometime ago indicates that Jack wrote you a letter while he was in jail and mentioned both Sam Hicks and another one of your shoe shine boys, Dwayne Armstrong. Dwayne Armstrong is a brother of the boy that used to work for Jack Ruby, isn’t he?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Dwayne working there at the time; November 22 and November 23?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn’t really say. I would have to look it up. I wouldn’t want to say yes, and I wouldn’t want to say no. I wouldn’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Dwayne still working for you now?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of an interview report that was prepared by FBI agent, Edmond C. Hardin as a result of talking with you on January 3, 1964. I am going to mark it, “Dave L. Miller, deposition of July 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”

This document consists of two pages numbered consecutively at the bottom pages 37 and 38, and I will hand it to you and ask you to read it, and then what I would like to know is whether that accurately reflects what you told the FBI on that occasion, and also if you have any changes that you would make in that?

[Mr. Miller reads report.]

Mr. MILLER. I told you about 5:30. There is only one thing I noticed there. He says, “Ruby appeared in Miller’s place of business at 5:30 on November 23” when he dropped in and asked me not to display the sign of the Carousel Club.

He had done that on the 22d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that he also did it on the 23d?

Mr. MILLER. I don’t remember whether he did it on the 23d, but I definitely know it was on the 22d.

Of course, I might have made a mistake and told him the 23d, but I definitely know the 22d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen Jack Ruby in any fights?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack ever talked to you about any of his sensitivity, the things that he objects to, or any of his personal ideas?

Mr. MILLER. No, he never said anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you know about Jack Ruby that you would want to tell us that we haven’t covered?

Mr. MILLER. The only thing I know was, he was a darn good customer to me, and he was very good to all the boys around there.

In fact, I was sick in the hospital and he come to see me one night. And he would always ask how I was getting along, and even called the hospital how I was getting along.

So, it was surprising to me that he would do anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other kindnesses that he bestowed on people?

Mr. MILLER. Well, I know during the wintertime he would bring coffee down to the boys in the two garages. There is a garage on each side of me.

And if he went off from the place, he would always bring sandwiches.

He would give the shirt off his back. If you needed a dollar and he had a dollar, he would give you the last dollar.

The boys would tell me at the garage that he brought the sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know George Senator?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see George Senator on November 22 or November 23?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. MILLER. I think I met Ralph Paul after the President was killed. He come in one day, I believe it was something to do, I think, with the Carousel Club. I don’t know exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Tammi True?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Little Lynn?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir. If I knew them--if I saw them, I didn’t know who they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Kathy Kay? Do you know his dancer Kathy Kay?

Mr. MILLER. The only one I knew was the heavy body. I don’t know her name--what the heck is her name? I don’t remember that. I didn’t know her personally, but I knew her for I had seen her a time or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know an entertainer named Breck Wall?

Mr. MILLER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Larry Crafard? Do you remember this boy Larry that worked for Jack about 6 weeks before the President was shot?

Mr. MILLER. I might know him, but the name don’t ring a bell. I can’t recall. The names don’t ring no bell, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if you saw Andy Armstrong on November 22 or 23?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you see Andy?

Mr. MILLER. He come down just prior to Jack’s coming down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On which day?

Mr. MILLER. The 22d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed between the time that Andy came down and the time that Jack showed up?

Mr. MILLER. Approximately 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy come into your shop?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in to talk to his brother, or what did he come in for?

Mr. MILLER. He come down to tell me not to--he advised me not to put the sign in at first, that Jack wasn’t going to operate that night.

I imagine he knew Jack was going to come down, so he come in ahead of Jack and told me not to put the sign out that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say that when you saw Jack, you were putting the sign in the window anyhow on Friday night?

Mr. MILLER. No. After Andy had come down and told me not to put it.

I never put the sign, but just about the time we closed the door, because it has to fit in a certain place, but opening and closing the door, it would be in the way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I misunderstood what you said at the beginning. I thought you said when you saw Jack on Friday night, you were just about to put the sign in the window?

Mr. MILLER. No. He asked me, the time I saw Jack, I told you about 5:30, because we were cleaning up.

In shining the shoes, the boys would drop dressing, and they take it and wipe it off, and they started about 5:30 wiping it off, so when we leave, it would all be clean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Andy Armstrong on Saturday?

Mr. MILLER. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any more questions. I want to thank you for coming in and being so helpful to us.

Is there anything else that you would like to say?

Mr. MILLER. There isn’t anything I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much. Nice to have met you, Mr. Miller.

One thing, I want to ask you to sign the interview report that I have marked as Exhibit No. 1. If you would sign it up near where I have marked it, and if you would also put your initials on the second page.

[Mr. Miller signs and initials.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Thank you very much.

Mr. MILLER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF NELSON BENTON

The testimony of Nelson Benton was taken on July 7, 1964, at 300 Oil and Gas Bldg., 1100 Tulane Avenue, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Nelson Benton. Do you have a middle initial?

Mr. BENTON. Well, my first name is Joseph but I just use Nelson.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Benton, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of the Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, and in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Benton, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates as to his movements on the dates of November 22 through November 24, 1963.

Now, Mr. Benton, normally a witness is given a 3-day written notice before his deposition is taken, in accordance with the rules of the Commission governing the procedure, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive any notice and have his deposition taken, by request, at any time.

In the instant case, no letter has been written to you or no request to appear, but as I understand it, you waive all notice and are willing to have your deposition taken now, this morning?

Mr. BENTON. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, will you be sworn, please?

(Nelson Benton, a witness called by the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:)

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. BENTON. My full name is Joseph Nelson Benton, B-e-n-t-o-n.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, however, that in your profession you do not use the name Joseph but are known as Nelson Benton.

Mr. BENTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you normally reside?

Mr. BENTON. 3201 St. Charles.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s apartment 301?

Mr. BENTON. Apartment 321, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Apartment 321? What is your occupation, Mr. Benton?

Mr. BENTON. I am a correspondent for CBS News.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been a correspondent for CBS News?

Mr. BENTON. I have been employed by CBS News for 4 years. I have been a correspondent since February. I’ll clarify that. Correspondent is a title. I have been a reporter for CBS News since 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was your occupation prior to that, sir?

Mr. BENTON. I was a reporter for a television station in Charlotte, N.C.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Benton, I am inquiring this morning about the events of November 22 through November 24, 1963 in Dallas, in particular connection with the death of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the connection of Jack Ruby with the latter event. Is it a fact that you were assigned as a correspondent for CBS to cover the Presidential visit to Dallas on November 22?

Mr. BENTON. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you arrive there, sir?

Mr. BENTON. I arrived on Thursday, November 21.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, where were you when the President was shot?

Mr. BENTON. I was at television station KRLD, which is located, I believe, on Camp Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after the President was shot and after his death, where did you go?

Mr. BENTON. I went to Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. BENTON. Approximately 2 hours. A little less than 2 hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record, please, approximately when you got there and approximately when you left?

Mr. BENTON. I arrived at the hospital at approximately 1 p.m. central standard time. I would guess that I left around 2:30 or 2:45 central standard time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Scripps-Howard reporter or correspondent by the name of Seth Kantor?

Mr. BENTON. I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you, of course, subsequent to November 22, saw and identified and could now identify a man by the name of Jack Leon Ruby, is that correct?

Mr. BENTON. I certainly could.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at Parkland Memorial Hospital----

Mr. BENTON. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain in any particular place at Parkland or did you move around?

Mr. BENTON. I moved around from the emergency entrance, where I talked to Senator Yarborough--Senator Yarborough was in a car about three cars behind the Presidential car--that was the first spot to which I went. The second spot was a pressroom which had been set up, which, I believe was a nursing classroom. That’s the spot at which the announcement of the President’s death was made. The other place to which I went at the hospital was the nurses’ quarters, which is across the street about 100 yards, and my purpose in going there was to get to a pay phone since all the phones leading to the hospital were jammed up at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about what time you left Parkland to go to the nurses’ home?

Mr. BENTON. Well, this was not to go and stay. This was a shuttle. I went over there several times. The first time I went was after interviewing Senator Yarborough, which I would guess to be shortly after 1 p.m. The next time I went was after Mr. Kilduff had announced that the President was dead.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us the circumstances under which that announcement was made?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir. There was a room with, I would guess, 40 to 50 reporters in it. Mr. Kilduff came in and yelled to everybody to be quiet and sit down. He said, “I have to announce that the President of the United States died at approximately 1 p.m. central standard time of bullet wounds in the head. I have no further details.” His statement was a little more complete. I think he said President John F. Kennedy.

Mr. HUBERT. At approximately what time was that?

Mr. BENTON. Right at 1:30 central standard time.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix that by reason of some event that stays in your memory?

Mr. BENTON. I looked at my watch and tried to compute the time, or was looking to see how fast we had been advised.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told previous to the announcement by Mr. Kilduff that there would be an announcement and to congregate at that time and place or how did it happen?

Mr. BENTON. Someone suggested we congregate there. A Wayne Hawks, who is a White House aide, a civil service person, he suggested we all move up there. There had been a large number of people congregated around the emergency entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. And that suggestion by Mr. Hawks was made at what time?

Mr. BENTON. I can only say between--some time between 1 p.m. and 1:30. I don’t know exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had spoken to Senator Yarborough?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct. Senator Yarborough was the first person that I spoke to when I arrived at the hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was 1 o’clock, you said, approximately?

Mr. BENTON. I can only guess. Approximately 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went across to the nurses’ home to make your telephone call and came back and it was after that the announcement was made to congregate? Perhaps we can approach it this way: Do you remember how long you had been in the room, after the announcement by Mr. Hawks?

Mr. BENTON. Not very long. I would say 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that backing off of 1:30, it would be fair to say Mr. Hawks must have announced that the correspondents should collect about 1:20 or somewhere----

Mr. BENTON. Mr. Hawks did not say gather at any time. I just recall his saying: let’s go up. We set up a pressroom. Something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. And that would have been about 1:20 or some time----

Mr. BENTON. I would guess; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after you left Parkland Memorial, where did you go?

Mr. BENTON. I went to the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. And then after that, where did you go?

Mr. BENTON. I think I returned to KRLD.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you first go to the Dallas City Jail Building?

Mr. BENTON. It was some time in the evening of Friday, the 22d.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not there in the afternoon at all?

Mr. BENTON. I was not there in the afternoon when the arrest----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say evening, of course, you mean after nightfall?

Mr. BENTON. I would guess around 7 or 8 o’clock in the evening.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?

Mr. BENTON. I stayed until after midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you see Jack Ruby at any time during the period you have just stated, from 8 to midnight, on the night of the 22d at the Dallas City Police Jail?

Mr. BENTON. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know him at the time, is that correct?

Mr. BENTON. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you associate the man you now know to be Ruby as a man that you saw?

Mr. BENTON. Because of something he said. Well, I told the FBI the man was wearing a white on white shirt, and we--I hadn’t seen many reporters wearing white on white shirts. It was----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean a white tie on a white shirt?

Mr. BENTON. No; I mean a white shirt with white figures embroidered--what appeared to be embroidered figures in the shirt. I noticed him because of something he said to District Attorney Wade, I believe it was. Wade was discussing the political background of Lee Oswald and Wade said something to the effect, and this is not a direct quote, “Well, I think he’s a member of that Free Cuba group;” whereupon, Jack Ruby corrected Wade and said, “No, it’s the Fair Play for Cuba and there’s a great difference between the two and I wanted to point that out.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade acknowledge that correction?

Mr. BENTON. Wade said, “Well,” something like that. His answer is not clear in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that take place? I mean, what part of the jail?

Mr. BENTON. To the best of my recollection, it occurred in what is called the assembly room, which is a room to which Oswald was taken that night to make a statement to the press. And to the best of my knowledge this occurred after Oswald had been in and----

Mr. HUBERT. Left? Do you know what time that was?

Mr. BENTON. Some time between 11 o’clock and midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the FBI report of the interview with you on December 1, 1963, indicates that Ruby’s comment in regard to the difference between “Free Cuba,” and a “Fair Play for Cuba,” was made to correct Chief of Police Curry, whereas you have stated now that it was made to Mr. Wade, the district attorney.

Mr. BENTON. I don’t recall saying that it was Chief Curry. I recall it was----

Mr. HUBERT. But you now remember it was made to correct Wade’s remark and not Curry’s remark?

Mr. BENTON. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby prior to that time?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him after?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean on the 22d.

Mr. BENTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you did see him on the 22d, and your attention was brought to him by the remark that he made, what was he doing?

Mr. BENTON. What was he, Ruby, doing?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. BENTON. I don’t recall, sir. A number of reporters were talking to Wade.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in the room with them, is that right?

Mr. BENTON. He was in the room.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him at all before that remark in that room?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir. My attention was concentrated on Oswald at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you see Ruby on Saturday, November 23, at any time?

Mr. BENTON. I don’t recall seeing him then.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the jail, the Dallas jail, during any time on Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir. As I recall, I was there most of the day.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, passing to Sunday, November 24, I think you had mentioned heretofore to the FBI that you had an interview with Chief of Police Curry?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. BENTON. I have to space these things back according to specific events. I would guess it was some time between 9 and 10 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s start it this way. What time did you get there on Sunday morning?

Mr. BENTON. I think about 8:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went right up to the third floor?

Mr. BENTON. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, did you have any identification?

Mr. BENTON. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you challenged?

Mr. BENTON. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you have told us that during the period, November 22 through 24, 1963, you went in and out of the jailhouse and the third floor on quite a number of occasions?

Mr. BENTON. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you challenged at all times or once or twice?

Mr. BENTON. Not directly challenged. For purposes of the President’s visit, press passes that you pin on your jacket were issued in Dallas. I had one of those, which had been issued me prior to the President’s arrival, which I wore.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you wear that at all times in the period in question?

Mr. BENTON. I wore that at all times. On Sunday, the security at the police department and jail was far more strict than it had been on the previous 2 days. There were times when I was asked to show additional identification. I don’t remember specifically which times, but on the morning of Sunday, November 24, when I entered the jail, I was stopped, asked to show identification, and for the purpose I showed a Department of Defense accreditation which has my name and picture on it issued by the Department of Defense. And my name was taken at the time by a plainclothesman, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that occur?

Mr. BENTON. That occurred on the street floor of the police department. Not the basement, but what I presume you would call the main floor.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean by the elevators or----

Mr. BENTON. In the vicinity of the elevators; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On which side? Commerce?

Mr. BENTON. I entered the building from--let’s see. Is it Main Street and Commerce Street or Commerce Street and Main? At any rate, I entered from the--I believe it’s Main, Commerce, and Harwood that bound the city jail, and I think I entered from the----

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. If a person is in the jailhouse and is looking toward Harwood he will find Commerce on his left and Main on his right.

Mr. BENTON. Well, I entered, then, from the Commerce Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was there you were challenged as to your identity?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned a distinction between the security measures you observed on Sunday and those that you observed on the previous days and I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that. I think you said that it was much tighter or something like that.

Mr. BENTON. It was tighter to the extent that a plainclothesman, who was in the company of another plainclothesman, not only asked to see my credentials but wrote my name down at that time, and I presume the name of my association.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you see, on the previous days, anybody going in without any kind of identification? In and out?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now returning to the interview with Curry, which you said occurred between 9 and 10, was that interview with Curry by you alone or was the interview of Curry by several news persons?

Mr. BENTON. As I recall, this particular one was either by me, alone, or perhaps one other network reporter.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that take place?

Mr. BENTON. It took place in the large anteroom into which Chief Curry’s office adjoins.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this taped in any way? Was it a radio or television interview?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; it was television, and, to my knowledge, I think it was taped. I don’t know whether it was broadcast live or taped. I did not have direct communications with New York. That was through the truck. I merely relayed; I have something, and I was given a cue to go, and what disposition they made of it; I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand. This was what station again?

Mr. BENTON. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. What television station?

Mr. BENTON. This was KRLD. We had employed the facilities of KRLD, and, of course, it was--we were all doing the same thing. It got to a point there was no distinction between us and their people. We were all working together.

Mr. HUBERT. So that interview was actually a live interview of Curry with you doing the questioning?

Mr. BENTON. It was on a live camera. Whether it was broadcast live, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But you, doing the questioning, I presume you were on the screen, or were both of you on the screen?

Mr. BENTON. Both of us were on the screen, I presume.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you just simply asked Curry for that interview and got it? Is that it?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did it last, do you remember?

Mr. BENTON. Probably 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I assume there is a tape available on that; but, anyhow, can you tell us the general nature of what was said?

Mr. BENTON. The general nature, as I recall it--the only specific reason that I did the interview was to point out that Chief Curry had planned to bring an armored car to the--as I recall it now, the Commerce Street side of the jail, in which to transport Oswald to the county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had the information that an armored car was going to be used and you wished to have an interview to develop that, is that correct?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you learn there was to be an armored car used?

Mr. BENTON. For the life of me, I can’t tell you. I picked it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it?

Mr. BENTON. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. And was this interview of Curry before you saw it or afterwards?

Mr. BENTON. I think probably it was before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you heard there was to be an armored car, then you interviewed Curry, and then, later, you saw the armored car?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Curry tell you why an armored car was going to be used?

Mr. BENTON. His answer was; this is not--something to the effect that--this is not an ordinary prisoner. We want to take every security measure we can.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think perhaps you stated--what you have given to the FBI, in their report in the interview of December 1, is that this was at 9 o’clock. And I believe you told us a few moments ago it was somewhere between 9 and 10.

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You can’t fix it any closer?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t think I can fix it any closer.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether Chief Curry had made any announcement on Saturday night, November the 23d, as to the movement of Oswald the next day?

Mr. BENTON. Chief Curry said something to the effect that: if you fellows are here by 10 o’clock, you’ll be all right. I heard no announcement saying that Lee Oswald would be moved at 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time of the interview with Curry on the 24th, did he state at that time when Oswald would be moved?

Mr. BENTON. To my knowledge, to my recollection, he did not say a specific time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after this interview ended did you leave the third floor to go down, wherever you did go?

Mr. BENTON. Mr. Hubert, I could only guess. This was a time during which we were guessing ourselves, and I really don’t know. I think----

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way. After the interview with Curry was over, where did you go? Do you remember?

Mr. BENTON. I think I may have gone down to Commerce Street where our mobile unit was located. I think I may have gone down there several times and returned. But I would not be able to say at what time or how long I stayed at a given place. I circulated between the third floor, the mobile unit we had located on Commerce Street and the basement entrance to the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was your mobile unit located?

Mr. BENTON. It was located on Commerce Street, right outside the building, the old municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you name some of the people who were connected with the mobile unit?

Mr. BENTON. The director was a man by the name of Lee Webb. One pf the cameramen’s names was English, I believe. Harold English. I’m not sure. These are not CBS employees. They were KRLD employees.

Mr. HUBERT. KRLD is what city?

Mr. BENTON. Dallas; it’s owned by the Times Herald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see another mobile unit belonging to another TV station along in there?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How far away?

Mr. BENTON. As I recall, it was adjacent to ours.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a crowd on Commerce Street at that time?

Mr. BENTON. Not a large crowd; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall seeing a crowd on the opposite side of Commerce Street?

Mr. BENTON. Yes; a small crowd. Less than 100 people.

Mr. HUBERT. They were controlled by police; were they?

Mr. BENTON. There seemed no need for control. I’m sure there were some police out there but----

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in the area of your mobile unit, I take it that there were not many people congregated?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. It was fairly clear? There were some police personnel and that was about it?

Mr. BENTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand, too, from what you said, that between the time of your arrival there at 8:30 until the time of the shooting, which was somewhere around 11:20, that you commuted, as it were, from the jail down to your mobile unit?

Mr. BENTON. Not from the jail; no, sir. I was never in the jail itself.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the jail building.

Mr. BENTON. Right. From the third floor to the mobile unit.

Mr. HUBERT. And how many times do you suppose you commuted in that way?

Mr. BENTON. It’s only a guess. I would say at least four or five times.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at any time that you did so commute, did you see the man that you have subsequently come to know as Jack Ruby in that area?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, where were you at the time the actual shooting occurred?

Mr. BENTON. I was in the mobile unit.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you been there?

Mr. BENTON. Less than 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you come from?

Mr. BENTON. I had come from the third floor of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you leave the third floor to go to the mobile unit?

Mr. BENTON. I had an indication from someone, and I cannot say who because I just don’t recall, that the move was imminent.

Mr. HUBERT. How did that indication come to you?

Mr. BENTON. It could have come from another reporter. It could have come from a police official. I don’t know. It may have just come from instinct.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any movement that indicated that something like that was imminent?

Mr. BENTON. I guess I saw more lack of movement. There weren’t many people on the third floor.

Mr. HUBERT. And theretofore there had been?

Mr. BENTON. So that could have triggered an instinct. I don’t know. I had stayed up there because earlier I had asked Huffaker, H-u-f-f-a-k-e-r, who is a reporter for KRLD--it had been decided that he would stay at the jail entrance and I would stay in the mobile unit where I could see what all of our cameras were picking up, rather than only on one scene. I knew that he was at the basement entrance to the jail and I knew that we were covered there. Consequently, I felt free to roam, to a certain extent, and pick up information.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was that the movement of the press people on the third floor began?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; and I don’t think it was any unanimous thing at all. I think it was just strictly moving around.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way. I understand there was quite a crowd of people there, say an hour before the transfer?

Mr. BENTON. That’s true.

Mr. HUBERT. And then 10 minutes or so before you left, the crowd had cleared out considerably?

Mr. BENTON. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any announcement or any statement by anyone that Oswald would be moved by use of the basement ramps?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t. I think this may have been something that we assumed since we knew that there was a basement entrance to the jail which connected to an elevator. I think we assumed he would be moved by some sort of vehicle. There were some of us who were not convinced the armored car was going to be used, and, as I later found out, there was no intention of using the armored car, which later I was told.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you left, which you stated was roughly 10 minutes before the shooting occurred, did you see any movement in Captain Fritz’ office to indicate that movement was imminent?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald, particularly, in Captain Fritz’ office at that time?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I did not see Oswald at all on the morning of the 24th. The only place I saw him was on a television screen.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to observe whether the detectives from the bureaus were leaving their offices to go down to the basement area?

Mr. BENTON. I don’t recall specifically noticing that. I do recall on one of my trips that there was a large number of people congregated at the basement entrance and----

Mr. HUBERT. Which basement entrance?

Mr. BENTON. This is the entrance in which Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you mean----

Mr. BENTON. The ramp.

Mr. HUBERT (continuing). The corridor that goes through the little jail office from the elevator?

Mr. BENTON. It doesn’t go through the jail office, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, there is a corridor----

Mr. BENTON. There’s a corridor that leads from, I believe, the spot where you pay traffic tickets that leads out----

Mr. HUBERT. Swinging doors and then the corridor and then it leads into the basement ramp?

Mr. BENTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Which goes both ways, to Main and to Commerce. There is some indication that at 10 o’clock on Sunday morning, that there was an expectation as to a time when Oswald would be moved. Do you recall anything about that, sir?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t. I may have heard it at the time but I remember no official announcement whatsoever that: we’re going to move him at such and such an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement that your interview with Curry must have ended prior to 10 o’clock?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; I’m sure that it did.

Mr. HUBERT. That would mean there was an hour and 20 minutes between the end of the interview and the actual shooting of Oswald. During that interval, I take it, also, you were moving around as you described?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Until ultimately, you came down to monitor the various pictures that were being picked up by your cameras?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. During that period from 10 until the time you last left before the shooting, did you see anything or hear anything to indicate a time of movement or a schedule of movement?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At any time was the route to be used, within the jail, first, and then after leaving the jail, or either of those two routes, discussed or commented upon by any public official that you know?

Mr. BENTON. I think the route from the jail to the courthouse was discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, outside the jail?

Mr. BENTON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. On the streets?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir. My memory is hazy. I can only say I think, because I am not sure. I think that in the interview I had with Chief Curry that that route was discussed and that--please understand this is a vague recollection. You plan on one thing and then it gets torn up and you lose a few details. But as I recall, I think I was told, in the discussion of the armored car, that he would be taken down Commerce Street to the jail, which, as I recall, Commerce Street goes past one side of the building, and it’s only necessary to make a right turn onto Houston Street to get to the jail entrance. I believe that’s correct.

I remember looking at a picture on the wall in that anteroom to which Chief Curry’s office adjoins. It’s a picture taken from a high angle beyond the triple overpass which shows Main Street, Elm Street, Commerce Street--you can see the jail building, and, if someone will point it out to you, you can also see the top of the jail building, and it seems to me there was some discussion of that route. There was some discussion of a route between Chief Curry and myself, and whether we discussed merely landmarks, and this was the way the President’s motorcade went, or whether we discussed the actual route of transportation for a prisoner, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether the time was discussed?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t recall the time being discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight. Is it that no time was discussed positively, or you don’t remember whether it was or not?

Mr. BENTON. I don’t think it was because I had some certain journalistic qualms of my own about discussing the specific time and I don’t think I asked a question like that because I didn’t feel it was proper.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether anyone else asked the question?

Mr. BENTON. I’m sure they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear them?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, there were no notes taken by you during your interview of Chief Curry, is that correct?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have told me, in the discussion we had immediately prior to the beginning of this deposition, that you had some 10 pages of notes of the events of November 22 through the 24th but that it consisted mostly of names. Is that correct?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; and I think the majority of my notes were taken prior to the 24th, because starting with----

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the 24th?

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; prior to the 24th. Because starting on Saturday morning, the 23d--well, let me digress a bit. Up until midnight Friday night I was working with a film camera crew. Film has to be processed, edited, and prepared for broadcast. Notes are very necessary if you want to determine which sections of the film to try to grab and use, if it has to be done in a hurry. After that time, everything I was doing was either being taped for fast reuse or it was going out live. Consequently, from a purely technical standpoint, there was no need for me to take notes. The story was in the hands of the producer and the editors simultaneously by the time it occurred, and this, plus the fact that I was in a rather large group of reporters, I had to hold a microphone in one hand. It was physically impossible to take any notes.

Mr. HUBERT. So the majority of your notes were taken, really, on Friday and Friday night?

Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And those would have to do, you say, not so much with information to be reported but with notes for your own use in editing, is that correct?

Mr. BENTON. That’s right. I took a great number of notes at the hospital because I was reporting after the fact rather than live.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You say those notes are available?

Mr. BENTON. I think they are: yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would undertake, when you have an opportunity to do so, to look them up and let me know about them. We’ll then have them photostated or Xeroxed and return them to you.

Mr. BENTON. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. And I would ask you at the time you turn them over to us to just jot on each page your name, and date, and just put: In re: deposition.

Mr. BENTON. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. So as to tie into this deposition without having to call you back again, you see.

Mr. BENTON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to make a part of this deposition?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything that was discussed between us prior to the beginning of this deposition that has not been covered and made a part of this deposition by the actual recordation by the recorder here?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t think so. I think you asked me one time--either you or the FBI asked me--if I saw Jack Ruby again on November 24. I did, after he had been arrested.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I did want to get that. Where did you see him next?

Mr. BENTON. I saw him in the corridor on the third floor of the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the shooting was that?

Mr. BENTON. I would guess an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. You just saw him in passing or did you have an interview with him or----

Mr. BENTON. He was being brought from the jail to Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak to him?

Mr. BENTON. I asked him a question and----

Mr. HUBERT. What question?

Mr. BENTON (continuing). He did not answer. I asked him why he did it.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the only time?

Mr. BENTON. He was brought down from the jail to Captain Fritz’ office and returned via the same route.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in Captain Fritz’ office, would you say?

Mr. BENTON. I would say at least an hour; maybe longer.

Mr. HUBERT. And you first saw him about 12:20?

Mr. BENTON. I would say between 12:15 and 12:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say he was in there 1 hour?

Mr. BENTON. At least an hour. It may have been longer.

Mr. HUBERT. And then he was brought back up again. Do you recall who was with him at that time?

Mr. BENTON. He was in the custody of at least four or five officers. I don’t know who they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know FBI Agent Hall?

Mr. BENTON. No, I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels?

Mr. BENTON. I know the name. I think I know the face. I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he was there when Ruby was in Fritz’ office?

Mr. BENTON. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Ruby was brought back upstairs, after having been in Fritz’ office at least 1 hour, did you see him again that day?

Mr. BENTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, when this deposition has been transcribed, we would like to send you a copy so that you may read it and make what stylistic semantic corrections you think should be made without changing the meaning, and then there will be a place for you to sign and then you can return it. I will ask the stenographer to send the transcript to me here. I will make some of these changes myself and send it on to you.

Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time I will probably enclose a self-addressed and stamped envelope to the Commission in Washington so that you may send it on. Now, where will you be? I understand you are going to----

Mr. BENTON. San Francisco; tomorrow.

Mr. HUBERT. And you will be there until----

Mr. BENTON. I think until the 18th or 19th.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell me, Miss, when this will be in my hands?

The REPORTER. We normally have 2 weeks delivery. When would you need it?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, could you have it in my hands by Tuesday, the 14th?

The REPORTER. Yes, I’m sure I can.

Mr. HUBERT. Where will you be staying?

Mr. BENTON. I’ll be staying at the Hilton Hotel in San Francisco.

Mr. HUBERT. And you won’t leave there until the 18th?

Mr. BENTON. That is the present plan.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll try to send it out to you airmail special delivery on the 14th so it ought to get there on the 15th or 16th and perhaps you’ll have a chance to look it over. In any case, send it on. I guess you will leave a forwarding address. Could you be reached at this New Orleans address we have?

Mr. BENTON. Well, my wife would know where I am. The St. Charles Avenue address.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and the CBS local would know?

Mr. BENTON. Well, she would probably come closer to knowing than they would at CBS because quite often all of us are out of town.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK BELLOCCHIO

The testimony of Frank Bellocchio was taken at 11:50 a.m., on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Frank Bellocchio.

Mr. Bellocchio, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.

I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Bellocchio, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his movements and his operations and associates and so forth. I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission asking you to come here; is that correct?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Approximately 6 days ago, I believe, 5 or 6 days ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and take the oath, please, and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Your name is Frank Bellocchio; is that correct?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. 9832 San Lea Drive, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Jeweler--self-employed.

Mr. HUBERT. Located where?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. 8310 Varsity Plaza is the retail store and at 1517 Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s a retail store?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No, this is a jewelry workshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Seven or eight years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way did you get to know him and how did your acquaintance or friendship continue?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe it was about 8 years ago that my wife and I strolled into his nightclub in Oaklawn.

Mr. HUBERT. The Vegas Club?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. The Vegas.

Mr. HUBERT. You got to know him there?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. And I got to know Jack Ruby. He introduced himself to me, and also some people knew me as a jewelry designer and he seemed to be impressed by this. He came over and he introduced himself to me and made his acquaintance in that manner.

Mr. HUBERT. How did your acquaintance or friendship, whichever it was, develop from that point?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Then I believe I went in--I believe my brother came down here from New York that summer.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s about 8 years ago?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. About 8 years ago--maybe 7 and maybe 9. My brother came down from New York City and my wife and I, I believe my brother and I believe his wife, went to the Vegas Club. Again, Jack Ruby came over to the table. My brother is on the police department in New York City and of course Jack Ruby was always impressed, you know, with police officers and so forth, and he got to talking to me and my brother all about some sort of business deal he had down here. I think it was this frozen pizzas. Jack Ruby spoke about going into the frozen pizza business, and the way he put it, I think he had plans to corner the frozen pizza business in the South. This was on my second meeting with Jack Ruby, and I believe the only time I actually sat at a table and spoke with him. After that from time to time I would see Jack Ruby downtown maybe walking in the opposite way or in a restaurant and he would always give me a big “Hello.”

Mr. HUBERT. There was no social relationship between you then such as visiting in one another’s houses and going out together or anything like that?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business relationships with him?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come to your shop sometime?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t--I’m sure Jack Ruby was never in our store at Preston Center, and he may have visited my workshop downtown once. I vaguely remember him talking to me about designing some sort of an ornament for the winners at his dance club. He used to have competition between dancers and give prizes to the winners.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you saw him on the 23d of November 1963?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time prior to that time that you had seen him?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I would say perhaps 6 months or 8 months or 10 months before that.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him on Saturday, November 23, which was the Saturday after the shooting and death of the President?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. At Sol’s Turf Bar or Delicatessen.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. 1517 Commerce Street, right across from the Dallas Power and Light Co. It may be 1515 Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. I think your number is 1515?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I’m located right upstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were you with?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Tom Apple.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He’s a personal friend of mine.

Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He’s an American Airlines pilot and also an engraver in the jewelry business.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you and Apple go down?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe we went down around 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. For what purpose--to get lunch or a drink or what?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe--lunch, a drink, and it was a day in which everybody was upset and talking and I didn’t feel much like working.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time at 3?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Originally, Tom and I thought or I thought that we had seen Jack Ruby about 1 o’clock or 1:30 or 2.

Mr. HUBERT. And you so stated, I think, to the FBI in your statement which has not yet been identified?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But now you wish to correct that and say it was later?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. We have established the time as being later than that, to the extent that I spoke to another friend of ours that was down there and he tells us it was closer to, I believe, 4 or 4:30 and he knows this is true because he had an appointment, I believe, at 2 o’clock and he was still there at 2 o’clock, and he’s told us he stayed about 2 hours after that; therefore, he’s very sure that it was not at 2 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you fix the time at 4 o’clock because some friend of yours has told you that he saw you there?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; we spoke with him.

Mr. HUBERT. You spoke with him and he knows it was 4 because he couldn’t himself have gotten there until 4 o’clock.

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that friend’s name?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I can’t think of his name, but he’s in the door business. It may come to me in a few seconds--I just can’t think of his name right now.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you have occasion to talk to him about this time question?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Well, naturally, afterward we all spoke about having seen Jack Ruby and we spoke about the FBI contacting us, and then we just spoke about it, tried to hash it out exactly what happened, when it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. But you remembered that you had told the FBI It was sometime between 1 and 2 o’clock?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then this man reminded you it couldn’t have been then because he had seen you earlier?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. In spite of the fact that he saw you there at 4 o’clock, would that have eliminated the possibility that you were there at 2, necessarily?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I could have been there myself at 2 o’clock. As I said, it was a day in which everybody was very upset.

Mr. HUBERT. Did this friend indicate to you that he saw Ruby there?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He saw Ruby there at 4?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long was Ruby there altogether?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was not there twice, that is to say, to your knowledge while you were there, he was there once?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. To my knowledge he was only there once.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was for 15 minutes?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Fifteen or twenty minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, if the man who is in the door business whose name you don’t remember at the moment, if he says he saw you talking to Ruby, that it had to be 4 o’clock because he couldn’t have been there before 4 o’clock, then you are willing to amend your statement to show that it was 4 rather than 2?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will introduce that statement. I have handed to you previously so that you might read it, a document which purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agent James S. Weir on December 5, 1963, which for the purpose of identification I have marked as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Frank Bellocchio,” and have signed my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr., which I have marked in the right-hand margin of the first page, the document consisting of two pages, and on the second page I have placed my initials on the lower right-hand corner.

Now, you have read this document, I think, and I ask if, except for the element of time, this document is correct, and does it correctly reflect the interview you had with the FBI agent?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; it does.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the third paragraph it does state that the time was between 1 and 2 o’clock and you have in the last few minutes explained why you believe it was not that time, but rather 4 o’clock, right?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you say you talked with Jack?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Ten, fifteen, or twenty minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was all of that conversation in the presence of Mr. Apple?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any of it in the presence of Mr. Apple?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes, some of it; some of it was in the presence of Mr. Apple.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe then how it was that Mr. Apple was present during some of the conversation but not during other parts of it? In other words, how did you become separated?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Tom Apple and myself--how did we become separated?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes--from Ruby? In other words, Ruby came in after you were in there, is that correct?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t know whether Ruby was in there when I came in or whether he came in afterwards. I didn’t see him enter or leave. He was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come up to you and talk or did you go to him?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe I walked towards the rear of Sol’s Turf Bar and Ruby said “Hello” to me.

Mr. HUBERT. And then did you engage him in a conversation?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. There was considerable confusion. I don’t remember whether I engaged him or he engaged me.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Apple present when you first saw him?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Apple was sitting at the bar. When I first saw Ruby--Apple was not with me, and to my knowledge Apple had never met and did not know Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. So you spoke to Ruby alone, then, about how many minutes?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Oh, perhaps, 5, 8 or 10 minutes. There were other people around though.

Mr. HUBERT. How did Apple get into the conversation?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Well, Tom and I, before----

Mr. HUBERT. “Tom” is Mr. Apple, right?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Mr. Apple, right. Mr. Apple and I had been sitting at the bar and we were both naturally very upset about the President’s assassination. I was on this day very emotional myself, and in a sense, I was holding Dallas responsible for the assassination of the President. Tom disagreed with me. We were discussing this at the bar. Then, I walked towards the rear of Sol’s Turf Bar and somehow I got involved in a conversation with Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose you tell us about that conversation between you and Ruby first. What was the nature of it and what subjects were discussed?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe I told Ruby that much of what had happened, Dallas could take the responsibility for.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward that position?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. His attitude toward that--he was very incoherent. He was agreeing with me and he was disagreeing with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he under the influence of liquor?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking at all?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any drink in front of him?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; he did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did this place sell alcoholic liquor?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Pardon?

Mr. HUBERT. Did this place sell liquor?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; it did. The reason I say he was very incoherent, I remember while I was feeling very, very bad about it, I told Jack Ruby I felt like letting my business go and moving from Dallas, and I remember Ruby telling me not to get excited, that there were a lot of good citizens in Dallas and not to hold everybody responsible.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was calming you down?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He was calming me down--yes, but at the same time, rather, I showed him an advertisement that appeared in the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Weissman ad?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. The Weissman ad.

Mr. HUBERT. You had cut it out?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I had cut it out.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his reaction when you showed him that?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. His reaction to this was that this was perhaps the work of a group of individuals trying to stir up trouble here in Dallas, racial trouble here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to know about the ad?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He said that he had been down to the newspaper and I believe that part of the ad had been paid in cash.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he did know about the advertisement?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He did know--yes, he definitely did know about the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. But his attitude toward the Weissman ad at that time, in response to your reaction, was that it was probably a group trying to stir up racial difficulties?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Racial--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of racial difficulties?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I assumed he meant an anti-Jewish feeling.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he use those words specifically?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; he did not say those specific words.

Mr. HUBERT. You gathered that from the fact that the name Weissman normally is taken to be a Jewish name?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; and he seemed to be very upset because the name was Weissman.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Jack Ruby was Jewish?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I assumed he was Jewish.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to think that the Jewish people in Dallas might be blamed for the assassination of the President on account of this ad?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He didn’t say so but he inferred this.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I take it from what you tell me that you were more excited about the ad and about the assassination than he was?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Well, I was excited--I was.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he was calming you down, I believe you said?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He was in a sense trying to pacify me.

Mr. HUBERT. At least to the extent that when you were inclined to blame Dallas, he defended Dallas, is that right?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct, but by the same token, he turned around and produced a Polaroid film of a sign, a photograph, that said “Impeach Earl Warren.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how he obtained those pictures?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t believe so, or, he said that he had taken them with a camera.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his statement concerning those Polaroid pictures?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. This upset him greatly, and at this point he seemed to be verifying my supposition that Dallas was responsible. As I said, he seemed to be taking two sides--he wasn’t coherent.

Mr. HUBERT. He seemed to be vacillating between the two?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Between the two, and this is how Tom Apple got into the discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. All this had occurred prior to Tom Apple’s getting into it?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did Tom Apple get into it? Did you all go to him or did he come to you?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; when I saw the pictures “Impeach Earl Warren,” this again supported my argument that Dallas in a sense was responsible.

Mr. HUBERT. So what did you do?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I asked Ruby if I could have one of the pictures. He said, “No.” I said, “Well, would you come over and show them to a friend of mine?” and we went over and showed Tom Apple the photographs.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you introduce Ruby to Apple and vice versa, or did they know each other?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. They didn’t know each other and I don’t believe I introduced them formally.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that they did not know each other then, is that right?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What is this part about Ruby’s making some comment about having a squabble with respect to the taking of that picture?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I asked him a number of times if I could have one of the photographs.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you want them for?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Again, this was verifying my position that Dallas was responsible, in a city that would allow signs like this to be exhibited.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you wanted to use it later on in your arguments or discussions with friends as to your position?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say he would not let you have them?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He would not let me have them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he state why?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe he said he had some sort of a scoop and wanted to see that the right persons would get the photographs. I’m not at all sure, but I believe he said that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he worried about his own business or seem to be or indicate that he was?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; he didn’t mention his own business.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was the conversation between you, Apple, and Ruby?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Perhaps 3 minutes, 4 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did the whole matter end? That is to say, you discussed the matter with Apple and you asked him again for the picture and he told you or indicated something about wanting a scoop or thinking he had a scoop, and what happened next? Did he leave you, you leave him, or what happened?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. It was almost as if he--I spoke to Tom and said a few more words to Tom, and Ruby was gone--never said “Goodbye” or “I’ll he seeing you”.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recollect his leaving?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t recollect his leaving.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether he left the bar at that time?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see him leave the bar?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I did not see him leave the bar.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after that did you stay?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Perhaps 45 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him during those 45 minutes?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So, he may have been there or he may not have?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He may have been there.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. On television.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean in person?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I saw him at the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you called as a witness?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. By the defense or the prosecution?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. By the defense.

Mr. HUBERT. But you haven’t communicated with him otherwise?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No; I haven’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Who communicated with you to get you to be a witness at the trial?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. One of the private detectives working for the defense counsel.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you were interviewed by the defense counsel also?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. By Mr. Belli?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Tonahill?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. On the stand.

Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. On the stand only. I was never interviewed prior to then by them.

Mr. HUBERT. You were never interviewed prior to that?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were interviewed by the private detective?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told him in effect what, what you told us today?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. In effect the same thing I have just given to you. They were more interested in his emotional condition, whether he seemed to be stable and so forth, at the time I spoke to him.

Mr. HUBERT. During any part of this conversation you had with Ruby on the 23d, did he make any remarks seeming to connect up the shooting of the President with the Weissman ad and the Earl Warren signs?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t believe so--no; and looking back at my conversation with him, he seemed to be very incoherent. He didn’t seem to be thinking along any straight or any clear line. He would take one side and then he would jump and take the other side. He said Dallas was not responsible, and then he produced the photographs which said, “Impeach Earl Warren,” and at this point he seemed to be holding Dallas responsible. He seemed to be taking both sides of the issue.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; do you have any other comment to make?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Bellocchio, I don’t think there have been any conversations between us at all since I first met you a few moments ago that have not been recorded, is that correct?

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Bellocchio, and I appreciate your help.

Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN HENRY BRANCH

The testimony of John Henry Branch was taken at 1:30 p.m. on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of John Henry Branch.

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Branch, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by President Johnson’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Branch, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and movements on the dates in question.

I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the date of the letter, do you remember the date?

Mr. BRANCH. I have it here--it’s the 22d.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. BRANCH. Yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, under the rules of the Commission every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice, dating actually from the date of the letter, but in any case the rules of the Commission provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice and testify, and I ask you now if you are willing to testify and if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that’s all I can do.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no objection to testifying now?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand then and let me administer the oath to you?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the whole truth and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mr. BRANCH. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. BRANCH. John Henry Branch.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, Mr. Branch?

Mr. BRANCH. 3722 Greenleaf.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?

Mr. BRANCH. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. BRANCH. Fifty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. BRANCH. I am manager of the Empire Room and agent for American Federation of Musicians.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the Empire Room?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s a nightclub.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. BRANCH. 1710 Hall Street, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a part of a hotel?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; it’s only a nightclub.

Mr. HUBERT. 1710 Hall Street?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you operate a business known as the Branch Agency?

Mr. BRANCH. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a business is that?

Mr. BRANCH. I’m a licensed agent for the American Federation of Musicians--they employ musicians.

Mr. HUBERT. And you also manage the Empire Room?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; a nightclub.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think that you have on a previous date, to wit, December 9, 1963, been interviewed by FBI Agents Hardin and Wilkinson?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I have previously shown you just before beginning this deposition a report of the interview of you by them, and I asked you to read it?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It begins at about the middle of a page which bears at the bottom, No. 206, and goes over to about a quarter on the top of page numbered at the bottom 207. I have marked it for identification as follows; “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit Number 1 of the deposition of John H. Branch” under which I have signed my name on the first page, and on the second page I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

Now, have you read the report concerning the interview of you to which I have just referred?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a correct and accurate statement of what occurred during that interview and what you told them and so forth?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are the facts that you told them true?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby on the night of the 23d of November?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me fix that date in your mind--the 23d was a Saturday?

Mr. BRANCH. Saturday--that’s right--Saturday night.

Mr. HUBERT. The President of the United States had been shot and killed on Friday, the 22d, so that when we are speaking of the night of the 23d, we are speaking of the next night?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby then?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. BRANCH. At the Empire Room.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the place you operate?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it?

Mr. BRANCH. I’m speaking of between 9 and 10.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix that time?

Mr. BRANCH. Because the band just had kicked off. The band hadn’t been playing over 15 minutes, and they go from 9 to 1 on Saturday, and they hadn’t played--oh, I guess--three or four numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they began at 9 o’clock?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a rather strict time that they began?

Mr. BRANCH. Every Saturday night at 9--to 1. They kick off at 9.

Mr. HUBERT. They start playing at 9 or should have--is it exactly 9 or sometimes a little later?

Mr. BRANCH. Sometimes it’s 5 minutes after or 5 minutes till.

Mr. HUBERT. But it wouldn’t vary more than 5 minutes?

Mr. BRANCH. It wouldn’t vary more than 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that they had played about three or four numbers when you saw Ruby?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; about three or four numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. How long does a number usually last?

Mr. BRANCH. About 3 minutes--with the singing, it would maybe run 5.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it would be about no more than 20 to 25 minutes after the beginning time, which could have been 5 minutes before 9 or 5 minutes after, so that in any case, it was no later than 9:30 and it could have been as early perhaps as 9:20, is that right?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, under what circumstances did you see him? Did he just walk into the club?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, he came in and asked me about a pianoplayer.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he driving an automobile, or do you know?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, the car was up the street there.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw it--did you see him outside of the club?

Mr. BRANCH. I walked outside with him.

Mr. HUBERT. But the first time you saw him, he walked into the club?

Mr. BRANCH. He came in.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him, of course, and had known him for years?

Mr. BRANCH. I had been knowing him for about 14 years--I’ve been doing business with him that long.

Mr. HUBERT. Supplying talent to him?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes, to his sister or him.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did he want to talk about?

Mr. BRANCH. He needed another pianoplayer because the pianoplayer she had out there couldn’t make it.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Vegas Club?

Mr. BRANCH. That was at the Vegas Club.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he want that pianoplayer for?

Mr. BRANCH. Starting that Tuesday, beginning that next Tuesday, because they was letting that one go that Saturday night--yes--he was letting him go that Saturday night, but they were supposed to close on Sunday, and he wanted him that Monday night.

Mr. HUBERT. He wanted him Monday night?

Mr. BRANCH. He wanted him to start to playing that Monday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make arrangements for him?

Mr. BRANCH. I was that Sunday--I was going to get a new pianoplayer that Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your conversation with him that night?

Mr. BRANCH. I told him I would get him another pianoplayer.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know who you would get?

Mr. BRANCH. No; I didn’t know which one, you see, you’ve got to try two or three.

Mr. HUBERT. But he told you to go ahead and get one?

Mr. BRANCH. To go ahead and get one.

Mr. HUBERT. And to report on Monday night?

Mr. BRANCH. To his sister.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you arrange the price?

Mr. BRANCH. No; she does that. I let them talk with her about the price, but when I sell him something, I talk with him about it--the price.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. BRANCH. It didn’t last long. He drank a Coca-Cola and said he had to go down to the Carousel--to his other Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk out with him?

Mr. BRANCH. I walked out with him to the Hall Diner.

Mr. HUBERT. To his car?

Mr. BRANCH. To the next door there--to the Hall Diner--where his car was.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s a Hall Diner there?

Mr. BRANCH. Next door to us.

Mr. HUBERT. His car was parked there?

Mr. BRANCH. His car was parked just below the driveway there.

Mr. HUBERT. You walked with him to the car?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stop at the diner?

Mr. BRANCH. No, no; he walked on to his car--it was right at the edge there.

Mr. HUBERT. And he left?

Mr. BRANCH. He left.

Mr. HUBERT. How much time do you think elapsed between the time he first came into the club and he drove off?

Mr. BRANCH. Maybe about 30 or 40 minutes, because he talks a whole lot--you know how fast he talks. He drank a Coca-Cola when he first got there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you discussed these various things?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He left then about somewhere a little after 10?

Mr. BRANCH. It might not have been quite 10, because he kept saying he was in a hurry because he had to go down to the Carousel Club, because he had one new act.

Mr. HUBERT. It was somewhere about that time?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; it was close to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk at all about the death of the President?

Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t discuss it. He didn’t discuss it at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he was going to fire the pianoplayer he had?

Mr. BRANCH. He had already gave him his notice. He had his notice--she gave him his notice already.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whether he was closed or open?

Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. He just said he was going to go down to the Carousel for the new act?

Mr. BRANCH. Go down to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you he had to leave, he was in a hurry, and he had to go to the Carousel Club?

Mr. BRANCH. He was in a hurry and he wanted to go to the Carousel Club and he wanted to be sure that I got him another pianoplayer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what he was going to the Carousel Club for?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir--that’s his other club.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I know, but you said something about he wanted to see a new act?

Mr. BRANCH. He said he had a new act.

Mr. HUBERT. And he wanted to see it, and that’s why he was in a hurry?

Mr. BRANCH. He was in a hurry to go down there and see it--I guess he was going to give them an audition. You know, you generally give them an audition, a new act.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you whether his club was open or closed?

Mr. BRANCH. Which club?

Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel?

Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t mention that.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression it was open?

Mr. BRANCH. I’m sure--that’s the impression I was under--that it was open, because I know the other one is open from 9 till 1, and until 2 on Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it open that Saturday?

Mr. BRANCH. It was open then.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure about that?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; I’m sure it was open.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the day after the President died?

Mr. BRANCH. I’m sure it was open.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe that; were you there?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir--I don’t go out--very seldom, but I had talked to her that day about it, and I know they was closed up the day before.

Mr. HUBERT. Friday?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes--after that--they closed that night, I’m sure. I’m sure they closed that night.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know that?

Mr. BRANCH. Because the band was off, because we were closed.

Mr. HUBERT. You were closed on Friday night?

Mr. BRANCH. We closed that evening, you know, after it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Friday?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t close on Saturday?

Mr. BRANCH. We didn’t close on Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. When Ruby came to your place the band was playing. I think you said?

Mr. BRANCH. Either the band has just started and played two or three numbers--it wasn’t long.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment to you as to whether or not you should be open or closed on that night?

Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t mention that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to object to the music or the dancing?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir--he just came. There wasn’t too much dancing then because we didn’t have over seven or eight people in there then.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case he didn’t fuss at you because you had opened your club on Saturday night?

Mr. BRANCH. No; he didn’t fuss.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you had closed your club on Friday night?

Mr. BRANCH. I don’t think I discussed that with him.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression that his club was open on Saturday night?

Mr. BRANCH. Saturday night; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he told you he was in a hurry because he wanted to----

Mr. BRANCH. Go and see a new act at the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether that was an audition or whether it was to be played to an audience?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I don’t. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What about this rumor of his distributing $5 bills all over the Empire?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, he do that all the time. You see, everybody knew him, and they said, “Give me somethin’, Ruby”, and he always do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do it on this occasion?

Mr. BRANCH. He gave away about three that night, going out the door. You see, everybody know him whenever he comes up there.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that the statements you made in this document which I have identified as Exhibit No. 1 were correct, and I would like you to, if you could, see if you can clarify this point: On the second page of that document, the FBI agents report you as saying the following: “He said”--that’s you--“that he did not see or hear of Ruby being in the Empire Room dancehall or any other Negro nightclub passing out $5 bills on November 23 or on any other occasion.” Is that correct--he was in your place?

Mr. BRANCH. He was in our place.

Mr. HUBERT. So this statement that he was not in your place is not correct?

Mr. BRANCH. He was really in our place.

Mr. HUBERT. And he did give out some $5 bills?

Mr. BRANCH. I said he give out one or two--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said “three” a while ago?

Mr. BRANCH. When he started out that door, you know, all of them knew him--everybody in north Dallas knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did he give these $5 bills to?

Mr. BRANCH. Just some of the customers there at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Really?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; it don’t make him no difference.

Mr. HUBERT. Has he done that on previous occasions?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; he do that a lot of times.

Mr. HUBERT. How much would he give?

Mr. BRANCH. Sometimes he give away $25 or $30.

Mr. HUBERT. But on this night you said it was two?

Mr. BRANCH. Two or three.

Mr. HUBERT. So, I suppose you want to modify your statement in Exhibit No. 1, page 2, the top paragraph, to indicate that he was in the dancehall for the purpose you said, and that he did give out at least two or three $5 bills, is that right?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know whether he went to any other Negro nightclub on the night of November 23?

Mr. BRANCH. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BRANCH. I don’t know him at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him before in your life?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of him?

Mr. BRANCH. Only in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t identify him with anybody you ever saw?

Mr. BRANCH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his mood, was he sad or glad?

Mr. BRANCH. What do you mean--Mr. Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. BRANCH. You can’t never tell about him--he’s a weird person.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he seem that night?

Mr. BRANCH. He’s always in a hurry. He’s fidgety, you know, he talks fast.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be crying, grieving, gay, happy, or what?

Mr. BRANCH. He wasn’t too happy--he wasn’t too happy.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe that?

Mr. BRANCH. Because he will take time and set down, but this time he was--he just wanted to know for sure if she’s going to have a pianoplayer--get his sister a pianoplayer out there because they was disgusted with the pianoplayer they had.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your wife that Mr. Ruby had been there?

Mr. BRANCH. No; I didn’t tell her.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. BRANCH. I didn’t tell her.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife is named Eleanor?

Mr. BRANCH. I didn’t tell her that night.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell her?

Mr. BRANCH. I may have told her 2 or 3 days after.

Mr. HUBERT. She works for Mrs. Mandell?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s right. As soon as she heard it was him, she knew that we were always taking care of business with him. I sold him the first band he had in Dallas--Red Calhoun--when he was at the Silver Spur, and when I got sick the first time, he gave me some money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby talk about the President’s assassination at all?

Mr. BRANCH. Nothing; he didn’t say a word.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say a word?

Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t say a word--he didn’t say anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the so-called Weissman ad, the ad that appeared in the paper that had to do with the President, and so forth?

Mr. BRANCH. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t talk about that?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about any posters that he had seen on the streets about impeaching the Chief Justice, Mr. Earl Warren?

Mr. BRANCH. No; the only discussion we had was about the pianoplayer and then him going to the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said he talked a lot and he was there for about 40 minutes, there must have been something else he talked about all that time?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s all he talked about--the pianoplayer.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how much talk could there be about him, you mean that he would be paid, or who he would be or what kind of music he would play or what?

Mr. BRANCH. That he don’t want no jazz pianoplayer, he wanted just the straight rhythm and blues pianoplayer.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I’m just trying to see, Mr. Branch, what could have kept him as long as 30 minutes, if all he talked about was the pianoplayer?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s mostly what he talked about--and the club. I should come down to the club and see it. I’ve never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. And that he was going to the club?

Mr. BRANCH. That he was going to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. He was listening to the music?

Mr. BRANCH. He had a new act--he was standing up to the bar talking and drinking a Coca-Cola, and then he did say something about some reducing pills I should take--I should take some tablets--I had just came out of the hospital and had been operated on.

Mr. HUBERT. He thought you were too fat?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, I was.

Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested some pills?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, he had some--vitamins.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you some?

Mr. BRANCH. No; he didn’t give me none of them, but he said he had some vitamins he was using.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment on the fact that some of his competitors like Mr. Abe Weinstein were keeping their nightclubs open while he was closing his?

Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t mention that.

Mr. HUBERT. You know the Colony Club?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; I know all the clubs. You see, a lot of times he’s just carrying on a lot of foolishness anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. He did what?

Mr. BRANCH. I said--a lot of times he just talked about foolishness, anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Like what?

Mr. BRANCH. Just about different acts and different musicians he had out to the place--“Slick,” and different ones he’d got out of jail and all that and how much I’d done for them, and you know how that is.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew he was a Jew?

Mr. BRANCH. Who, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?

Mr. BRANCH. I don’t know--you see--he was a good fellow, but the thing was, he was a parlor-type fellow.

Mr. HUBERT. A what?

Mr. BRANCH. Temperamental--real temperamental, but he was a good fellow. The only thing, though, he bragged because he was a Jew.

Mr. HUBERT. He bragged because he was a Jew?

Mr. BRANCH. A lot of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an example of that, please, or several examples?

Mr. BRANCH. You see, a long time ago he had a place down here in the bottom called Cavalcade of Blues and he went busted and he said he was going to leave, and he was going to come back and still have the Cavalcade of Blues, and they busted him, and he got broke, and he said, “I’m coming back,” and he said, “I’m going to be the only Jew that ever come back and repeat it again”; and he did--he came back.

Mr. HUBERT. And he boasted about it later--you heard him do so?

Mr. BRANCH. He done that--he told me two or three times.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us some other examples of episodes or things he said which would indicate that he was proud of being of the Jewish faith?

Mr. BRANCH. I don’t believe I can.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you the thought that the Jews were getting a bad deal in society?

Mr. BRANCH. No; he would be happy nearly every time you see him.

Mr. HUBERT. He was what?

Mr. BRANCH. He’d be happy nearly every time you’d see him.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean then when you said he was temperamental?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, the least little thing--if you say something to him and the price would be too high and he would get mad and said something like, “You know that’s too much,” but he was just like that--he was a good man.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the Pago Club?

Mr. BRANCH. Now, it’s over on--over here on McKinney. Which one do you mean--the one that used to be on Lemmon? They’ve done moved it now; it’s over on McKinney.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it on November 23?

Mr. BRANCH. That was on Lemmon.

Mr. HUBERT. On Lemmon Street?

Mr. BRANCH. On Lemmon Avenue. Mr. Norton’s.

Mr. HUBERT. There weren’t two of them, were there?

Mr. BRANCH. Only one.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s moved to another address now?

Mr. BRANCH. It’s down there on McKinney now.

Mr. HUBERT. How far is your place, that is, the Empire Room at 1710 Hall Street, to the Pago Club, where it used to be?

Mr. BRANCH. You come down Lemmon all the way to Washington and turn right on Washington at Ross and come right on to the Empire Room and I’d say it’s about 15 blocks.

Mr. HUBERT. How far would the Hall Diner or the Empire Room be to the Carousel?

Mr. BRANCH. Well, that’s down on Commerce Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I mean how many blocks?

Mr. BRANCH. I’ve never been to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it’s near the Adolphus Hotel, and let’s put it this way--how far would it be from your place to the Adolphus?

Mr. BRANCH. That should be about between 12 and 14 blocks, according to which way you go--which way you come down.

Mr. HUBERT. About a 5-minute drive in an automobile?

Mr. BRANCH. About 7 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any indication from what Ruby said as to where he had been before he came to see you on the 23d?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?

Mr. BRANCH. He had on a gray pair of trousers and a blue coat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?

Mr. BRANCH. He wore a hat.

Mr. HUBERT. What color?

Mr. BRANCH. It was black.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat?

Mr. BRANCH. It wasn’t cold--it wasn’t even cold.

Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated to you that he was going directly to the Carousel?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him drive off, did he drive in the direction of the Carousel?

Mr. BRANCH. He went up Hall Street. He had to go to the corner and turn back right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that be the way you go to the Carousel?

Mr. BRANCH. The way he was headed, he had to go one block and turn right and come down Ross. He didn’t seem like he was angry or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. The band would have a break, wouldn’t it, have several breaks?

Mr. BRANCH. Our bands don’t have but one break. In a white club you have four breaks. You see, you play 45 and off 15 in a white club, and in a colored club, you play 2½ hours and take 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, if it started at 9, you would go to 11:30, and then start up again at 12?

Mr. BRANCH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You are definite that when Ruby came the band had started and had played about three or four pieces?

Mr. BRANCH. About three or four numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that he came to see you at the beginning of the second half?

Mr. BRANCH. No, no; it was just after we kicked off--it wasn’t much after.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m thinking about whether it was possible it was the kickoff of the second half after the recess?

Mr. BRANCH. No; it was the kickoff.

Mr. HUBERT. It was the kickoff of the evening?

Mr. BRANCH. It was the kickoff of the evening, because we didn’t have over four or five people in the house.

Mr. HUBERT. And later there were more?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; they came in--you see--it was Saturday night, and they started coming in all the way to 11.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s no possibility that he was there as late as 11 or 12 o’clock at night?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him after that night?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In regard to your statement, Exhibit No. 1, there is some material on the top of the first page that does not deal with you, and then there is the material that does deal with you, and I asked you to read the part marked by a mark placed by me on the first page called “X-1,” and on the second page, it’s squared off with “X-2.” That’s the part we’re talking about that you have testified about previously.

What happened to the pianoplayer that you engaged for Monday night?

Mr. BRANCH. You know--they closed up.

Mr. HUBERT. Right away?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes--after he got in that trouble, they closed the place up.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the pianoplayer never was sent?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get word from somebody not to send him?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; but it was in the paper. You see there was all the news in the paper where he done got in trouble.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but did they say that the club would be closed?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir--you see--I’m living out that way, and I got by there every day and it was closed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Miss Eva and ask her if she wanted him?

Mr. BRANCH. I never talked to her but one time. You see, she called me and asked me about it, but you see, I didn’t do business with her.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. BRANCH. Well that was the same day he came by--I talked to her about the pianoplayer.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean--before he came?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You talked to her before he came that night?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that was the day.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the telephone?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was on Saturday during the day?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. She wanted a pianoplayer from you?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell her?

Mr. BRANCH. I told her I’d talk to Mr. Ruby about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him to come by?

Mr. BRANCH. He always come by when he wants something.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you would not talk to her?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I don’t do business with her.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. BRANCH. Because she’s too hard to get along with.

Mr. HUBERT. You have had experience along that line?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that’s why all the musicians was quitting--on account of her. They worked for him, but they don’t want to work for her, but he put her over there and so they just stayed along.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody with Ruby on the night you saw him?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; he was by himself.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn that he had shot Oswald?

Mr. BRANCH. When I was looking at television.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; not at first, because he was just like that--I was a little surprised.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Andy Armstrong who worked over there at the Carousel?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I don’t know nobody over at the Carousel at all. I knew Joe Johnson and all the band that worked up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Mr. Ralph Paul?

Mr. BRANCH. I’m trying to think of who that is--I didn’t know him. I know Miss Grant and I knowed nothing but the band.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. George Senator, a roommate of Ruby’s?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I didn’t know him at all. I have never seen him. I have seen some men with him sometimes but I didn’t know who it was. You see, he would get out of there--he’d get out when he’d drive up there, and a lot of times I’d see him pass and call him and he wouldn’t stop, and I wouldn’t stop him.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, just to close this--is there anything more you want to say?

Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There has been no conversation between us other than what’s been recorded in this room, is that correct?

Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Mr. Branch. I appreciate your coming by.

Mr. BRANCH. Thank you, I appreciate it too.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM GLENN DUNCAN, JR.

The testimony of William Glenn Duncan, Jr. was taken at 3:45 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of William Glenn Duncan, Jr.

Mr. Duncan, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Duncan, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and associates and so forth.

I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. DUNCAN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that letter?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; I got it the 23d, but I don’t remember the date of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the rules of the Commission provide that every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, commencing from the date of the request, so that the rule has probably been complied with here, but at any rate, the rule also provides that the witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes.

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, I’m sure they were complied with, and if not, I will waive that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you stand up and take the oath, please, sir.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DUNCAN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Duncan, I have previously shown you a document which I have marked for identification by placing in the right-hand margin the following: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the Deposition of Glenn Duncan” and under which I have signed my name. The exhibit consists of one page. It purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Neeley and Rice on November 29, 1963.

I ask you if you have read Exhibit No. 1 and whether it is correct or whether there is anything wrong or something which should be modified or expanded?

Mr. DUNCAN. Now, the exhibit is basically correct. The only possible discrepancy would be the matter of the two telephone calls from Jack Ruby, which is still a matter of some confusion in my mind, as to the exact number. The time on this exhibit shows probably between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m. I think it would actually be between midnight and 1 a.m. Ruby’s visit came over the 2 o’clock hour and the telephone calls preceded that. Aside from that the exhibit is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you place the visit by Ruby between the hours of 1 and 2, is that correct?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; the visit was actually about 30 minutes long and hinged somewhere over the 2 o’clock hour.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say it was somewhere between a quarter of 2 and a quarter past 2, or 5 minutes of 2 and 25 minutes after 2?

Mr. DUNCAN. I would say--somewhere between that.

Mr. HUBERT. How much before the beginning of the actual personal interview did the phone calls occur?

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, they would be another half hour to 45 minutes. I would say about that--45 minutes would probably be the most solid--from the last telephone call to his arrival.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your thought is that the phone calls could not have been earlier than 1 o’clock?

Mr. DUNCAN. It was--could not have been later than 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Could not have been later than 1 o’clock.

Mr. DUNCAN. Correct--I would like to allow myself a----

Mr. HUBERT. It’s incorrect to say that the calls were between 1 and 2 a.m., when actually the latest time in your mind that the calls could have been, would have been 45 minutes before he came or about 1 o’clock.

Mr. DUNCAN. About 1 o’clock; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why it is that you have that recollection now and are changing another recollection, or is it your opinion that the FBI agents misunderstood you? In other words, we have here a discrepancy in time, and I would like some way to have it explained to us.

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, the only time I can pin down definitely is that his visit hinged over the 2 o’clock hour, because at 2 o’clock I did a 2 o’clock newscast and he was there during that newscast, and I would judge his visit to be about a half hour, and I was guessing he arrived 10, 15, perhaps 20 minutes before that, but at least hinging over that. I would put the telephone calls between 12 and 1 because of the time preceding that, and as to the discrepancy with the report, I would have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it may well be and I suggest to you the possibility that it is, that now you have this very definite hinge point, as it were, that Ruby was there when you made a 2 a.m. broadcast and perhaps you did not remember that on the 29th when you told the agents that?

Mr. DUNCAN. This could very well be.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, the document is all right, that is to say, Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have also handed to you and I think you have read it, a document purporting to be the transcription of your testimony at the Ruby trial, consisting of a number of pages, beginning apparently at page 52 and ending on page 67. I have marked this group of papers for identification as follows: On the first page I have put in the right-hand margin--“Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of Glenn Duncan” and I have signed my name below that and on each of the succeeding pages I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and I ask you if you have read this transcription of your testimony, and if you have any comment to make upon it?

Mr. DUNCAN. I have read it and it is correct in total. I have marked on one page----

Mr. HUBERT. Page 64?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes--page 64--and this concerns the part of the testimony where I was being cross-examined by Mr. Belli and he asks me, paraphrasing, if after Ruby had seen Oswald, did Ruby seem pleased, satisfied--that he had seen this character, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera--I have an addition to make.

I can remember now one particular incidence and this came to mind after the trial. We talked for a few minutes on Oswald himself, his appearance and so forth, and I remember, I believe Ruby brought it up, that he was--to the effect--actually a fairly nice looking kid. We talked about how he would normally--could pass off as a college student somewhere, and the connection was brought up to a vague resemblance between Oswald and Paul Newman, the movie star. This is about the only addition that I could make to that.

Mr. HUBERT. He was describing Oswald as he said he had seen him that night, wasn’t he?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. At a press conference?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon how he happened to be there?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, he did. He said he had come to the front door of our studio with the sandwiches and cola and so forth that I have mentioned elsewhere in that testimony, and had tried to get in--the door was locked, and because of the long distance between the flight of stairs and the studio, no one heard him, and he said he went over the the city hall, the police department, Dallas City Hall, to try to find one of our newsmen to either give the sandwiches to him or let him in. While he was there, he said there was all of a sudden a lot of commotion, people running around, and he said he was caught up in the rush and before he knew it he was in an assembly room, being pushed by everybody and standing there with his big bag of sandwiches and everything, and looking up at Oswald, and he said this was when Oswald was brought out to be seen by the press after he had been charged that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that he was trying to convey to you that he got into that room more or less by accident by being brushed along and not by design?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; exactly. This was the whole point or one of the points that he was making--the fact that he hadn’t even known it was going to happen, and suddenly he was pushed along. He didn’t know what the rush was all about until he was in there surrounded by everybody.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was conveying to you that he got into the assembly room just by a sort of an accidental method and he did not get there because he sought to get there?

Mr. DUNCAN. Right. His exact words, I don’t remember, but the inference was very definitely accidental and not attempting to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know Jack Ruby prior to this, did you?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, I did not--it was the first time actually I had ever even heard of him--was when I was introduced to him on the telephone that night.

Mr. HUBERT. And how were you introduced to him?

Mr. DUNCAN. By the announcer on duty at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. DUNCAN. Danny McCurdy, and Jack called the control room, which was the only public number or the only place in the station at that time with the telephone answer to a public number, and our newsroom telephones are both unlisted private lines, and so at that time he, according to what Danny told me, said he had some things to bring up and I was introduced to him on the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. He had some sandwiches?

Mr. DUNCAN. Some sandwiches and colas, and I was introduced to him on the telephone and there was a mixup. Danny gave him the newsroom number, the telephone number.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that what’s called the hot line?

Mr. DUNCAN. That’s what’s called the hot line--correct. He gave him the hot-line number and he was going to call and then there was a mixup and he had written it down and had forgotten it or Danny gave him the wrong number or something, and he called Danny again to get it again, and then he either called the newsroom and introduced himself to me with Danny then picking up his telephone in the control room or Danny introduced me to him on one of the other lines during the exchange of telephone numbers, and I do not remember which it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that he suggested to you that he might be able to get an interview for you with Henry Wade?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, the first telephone call--the first conversation that I had with him was concerned mainly with an introduction and was he going to be able to get in and so forth and so forth.

Since Danny indicated that he knew him or had met him before, I agreed--well, we agreed to let him in, and normally of course we wouldn’t give someone the run of the station, but it had been indicated anyway that he knew people on the staff. He had advertised with us, among other things, and so he was going to get in, and then he called back.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after?

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, I was just going to say--a few minutes--and exactly, I couldn’t tell. I would say it was probably not more than 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you fix the time of each one of those calls?

Mr. DUNCAN. Not very definitely. It’s very difficult for me to do.

Mr. HUBERT. Except that you know they were before 1 o’clock?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that they were 10 minutes apart?

Mr. DUNCAN. I would say they were approximately 10 minutes apart.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was on the second one that he told you that he could get the interview with Wade?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes. He said that he was there and that Henry Wade was there and did I want to talk with the District Attorney Wade, and at this time I was very anxious to do that because we were understaffed. I was alone in the newsroom. I knew that something was going on, but in attempting to get facts, I had tried to get into city hall by calling every other place I knew over there and had been unable to reach Wade, so I was very anxious to do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you suggest to Ruby on the first call that you would like an interview with Wade, or was it his idea?

Mr. DUNCAN. To the best of my recollection, the conversation with Wade was his idea. I may have said something about perhaps in cutting the telephone conversation short, but I was busy in trying to get into the city hall by telephone to get some information or something, but I did not ask him specifically to find Wade or anyone else for me, and I honestly do not know whether or not I mentioned it to him.

Mr. HUBERT. But when he called you the second time, the purpose of that call was to tell you that he had Wade available?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Wade immediately available?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, he was--Jack said that Wade was on another telephone. He asked me did I want to talk to Henry Wade and I said “Yes”, and he said, “Just a second. He’s on another phone with somebody from New York, and I’ll get him,” and then in a few moments Wade did come to the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know where Ruby and Wade were talking from?

Mr. DUNCAN. They were talking, according to Ruby, from city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what part of the city hall?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, I do not. After awhile--well, at the time I guessed and I would still assume it to be at least relatively correct, that they were in the basement of the city hall somewhere around the records office or the assembly room that was used for press conferences at that time--during the assassination coverage, but that is an assumption.

Mr. HUBERT. When he did put Wade on the phone, of course you taped the interview with Wade, and you say that that tape is still available, right?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, it is.

Mr. HUBERT. Then it was about three-quarters of an hour after that, that Ruby came over with the sandwiches and so forth?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And stayed about 30 minutes?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; 30 to 45 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he with you all that time or what was he doing?

Mr. DUNCAN. He came in the newsroom door about the same time--or after--he came through the newsroom door with Russ Knight who had gone over to the city hall with a portable tape record for me to attempt to get something--to get an interview there, and when I had been unable to reach Henry Wade I had asked Russ if he would go over and he said he would. He left and then it was after his departure that Ruby called and I eventually talked to him. They arrived at the newsroom door at the same time.

In talking with Russ later, I believe he said they didn’t arrive at the front door at the same time, but anyway they came into the newsroom together. He stayed in the newsroom the entire time, to the best of my recollection, until he was actually ready to leave. Then Russ went down to let him out, I believe. At least, in talking with Russ afterward I remember Russ saying something about he and Ruby had chatted on the way out or in the hall outside the newsroom.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how he was dressed?

Mr. DUNCAN. He had a dark suit on--a hat, white shirt, tie, and I believe he was carrying an overcoat--I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, he brought the sandwiches over?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, and he had the sandwiches.

Mr. HUBERT. He was definitely there during your 2 o’clock broadcast?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume that your 2 o’clock broadcast began exactly at 2 a.m.?

Mr. DUNCAN. Exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did it last?

Mr. DUNCAN. Normally, we run 4½-minute newscasts. This could have been as long as 5 or 6 because the format changed during the assassination coverage, but I would say that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the broadcasting room with you at that time?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember mentioning his name?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, no--as a matter of fact, to be dead certain I would have to listen to the Soundscriber.

Mr. HUBERT. You do have a Soundscriber of that broadcast at 2 o’clock?

Mr. DUNCAN. Right; we have. We maintain a 24-hour taping service at the station.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that Soundscriber going to be kept permanently?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, they are kept in storage.

Mr. HUBERT. All of them or just these particular ones?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, this is done constantly. We have 24 hours a day every day tape recordings.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long a period of time do you keep those things?

Mr. DUNCAN. This--I am not sure of. This I would have to find out from the station engineering staff. I am certain though that long after others are gone, the news covering the assassination will be kept and that they are available now.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about a sort of an instrument called an Alpawna Box, the word being spelled A-l-p-a-w-n-a?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; I have never heard of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby in the course of any conversation with you on the telephone or otherwise mention the famous Weissman ad, are you familiar with the Weissman ad?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; I am. I do not remember. I don’t believe he did because I probably would have remembered after Ruby’s further involvement, but 1 do not believe he did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate anything to you which would suggest that he was concerned that public opinion might place the blame for the assassination upon the people of the Jewish faith?

Mr. DUNCAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk in any way about the fact that he was a Jew or of the question of Jews or any aspect of that kind?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I am certain he didn’t because I remember being surprised, well, not surprised, but feeling it was a new piece of information when I learned later he was Jewish. The term “Ruby,” and I did not connect the thing with any physical characteristic at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with a pamphlet called “Heroism”?

Mr. DUNCAN. Only in a hearsay sense.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make any comments about that pamphlet that you now identify the way you have, on the night in question?

Mr. DUNCAN. Not to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do so to anyone else--do you know?

Mr. DUNCAN. I understand from talking to Russ Knight that he did, as I mentioned, later when they were chatting in the hall at the time of Ruby’s departure, Russ told me that Ruby gave him a copy of a Life Line speech or pamphlet entitled “Heroism” and asked him to read it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, I did not. I didn’t see the pamphlet or the exchange or did not actually know anything about it until talking with Russ some time after.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen or spoken to Ruby after he left that night?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; well, I saw him during the coverage when I was at the police department covering the assassination--that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask for any kind of a pass, a press pass from you?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; he did not. He didn’t ask for anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any press pass from KLIF, to your knowledge?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; he didn’t--not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. You would know if he did have?

Mr. DUNCAN. Probably--I should think so. Press passes were short at that time, and at that time the only press passes available to my knowledge were the press passes that were connected with the Kennedy visit and not the later Dallas police press passes that were issued after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your impression of Ruby’s general attitude that night?

Mr. DUNCAN. Well, repeating my trial testimony--this was the first time I had met him, so I had no real relative gage, but he did not seem out of character. He seemed--he was excited in the sense that everyone was excited. He seemed to me to be a highstrung individual, a quick sort of individual, but he did not seem overly excited and did not seem out of character.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving?

Mr. DUNCAN. No, no; he was not grieving. If anything--if anything, he was--well, I use the word “happy” guardedly, but he was if anything happy that evidence was piling up against Oswald and that he had been charged, and the mounting of a case against him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get the impression that he himself was sort of getting a kick or a charge out of being close to the police and the news development of this historic event?

Mr. DUNCAN. Oh, I think so. I think he was to a certain degree. Of course, we run into this sort of thing all the time. Of course, the event was much more important, but I would not say that he seemed any more excited about having an “in” or being closer to it than the average person we run into at a shooting or a major accident, who sidles up to you and tries to become involved.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he explain giving you the sandwiches?

Mr. DUNCAN. As I remember there was no definite explanation. It was simply that “I figured you guys would be hungry and I brought these up to you,” with this type of an explanation, if it is one.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that the sandwiches had originally been intended for the police but that he found that they couldn’t use them and he therefore brought them to you?

Mr. DUNCAN. No; from the very beginning--from the telephone calls and afterward he indicated to me that they were originally intended for us, and the reason he had them at the police station was the fact that he had been unable to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. To get into where?

Mr. DUNCAN. To get into our place and then had gone over to look for one of their newsmen. His indication, and I don’t know about his whereabouts before that, or he didn’t mention them, but his indication was he came to our station first.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he had an overcoat on?

Mr. DUNCAN. I believe he was carrying an overcoat.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what color it was?

Mr. DUNCAN. It seems to me that it was a dark gray or light brown--a muted dark tone.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you wish to add?

Mr. DUNCAN. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any conversation between us off the record--that has not been brought out on the record?

Mr. DUNCAN. I don’t believe so. It seems to me the only thing we talked about were these telephone calls and that’s in.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s in the record?

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we did talk off the record by telephone, but that has been developed fully and is now on the record.

Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I believe that is all and I thank you very much for coming.

Mr. DUNCAN. Glad to help you out.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GARNETT CLAUD HALLMARK

The testimony of Garnett Claud Hallmark was taken at 10:35 a.m. on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Garnett Claud Hallmark.

Mr. Hallmark, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Hallmark, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine that facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and so forth. Now, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter written to you by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, who asked you to come; is that correct?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe also the letter was probably dated the 22d of June 1964, and I ask you when you received it?

Mr. HALLMARK. I received it the 23d--it was stamped the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Tuesday?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well then the 3 days required for notice have elapsed. I will ask you if you will stand and raise your right hand and I will administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give about these matters will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. HALLMARK. Garnett Claud Hallmark.

Mr. HUBERT. And your residence?

Mr. HALLMARK. 2831 Quanah.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. HALLMARK (spelling). Q-u-a-n-a-h.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in Dallas?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. HALLMARK. I am employed by Allright Auto Parks, Inc., as a general manager of the Dallas operation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do they operate several parking lots in the city?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. HALLMARK. Eight years.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. HALLMARK. I have known him, it will almost be 4 years now--over 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. I have previously handed to you a 5-page document and for the purpose of identification, I have marked the first page on the right margin as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the Deposition of Garnett C. Hallmark,” and I have signed my name below that and on each of the following four pages I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each page.

I asked you to read that so that you would be able to answer the questions I am now about to ask you, and that is whether or not this Exhibit No. 1, which purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agent Arthur Carter on December 11, 1963, is a fair and correct report of the interview that you did have with the FBI agent?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; it’s a good account.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any corrections or modifications or changes to make in this?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to know whether or not you had seen Jack Ruby on the 22d of November?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I didn’t see him.

Mr. HUBERT. But on the 23d, I think, you say in your statement that you did see him?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that at the Nichols Bros. parking lot right next door to your lot next door to the Carousel Club?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have a man named Huey Reeves, or did, who worked there?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; Reeves still works for me. We have lost that location but Reeves still works for me.

Mr. HUBERT. As general manager of this operation are you present at times in the different locations that you operate?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 23d, you were, however, at the operation called Nichols Bros.?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was a part of Allright Parking?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. One of the questions I want to ask you is how you fixed the time of seeing him, but I noticed that on page 2, the second paragraph, you indicate that you saw him at about 3:05 p.m. You established that time because you knew that you had a schedule that would require you to leave at 3:15, and that that enabled you to fix the time.

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you to elaborate to this extent--tell us what kind of schedule was that?

Mr. HALLMARK. Well, first of all--of course, I had gone to this location to relieve this Tom Brown who is mentioned there, and just to let him get off and out of the office long enough to stretch his legs and get a cup of coffee, and I allowed myself approximately 30 minutes for that. I wanted to be at a location on Elm Street, 1920 Elm, at just about 3:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that one of your parking lots?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And your schedule called for you to be there at 3:30?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To do that you figured you would have to leave at 3:15?

Mr. HALLMARK. I wanted to leave at 3:15 to give myself plenty of time.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression then that you saw Ruby about 10 minutes prior to the time you scheduled yourself to leave?

Mr. HALLMARK. He first entered the garage at probably--at 2:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him then?

Mr. HALLMARK. Well, he drove into the garage before I had ever gone into the office, and he parked at the place we normally let him park his car and got out and said he wanted to use the phone, that he was acting like a reporter. Of course, I granted him permission to walk in our cashier’s office and use the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he further identify his activities as “acting like a reporter”?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; he didn’t elaborate on that.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did he convey to you that he was acting like a reporter in any particular matter?

Mr. HALLMARK. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what he said that he was acting like a reporter in connection with the death of the President?

Mr. HALLMARK. I, of course, assumed that. He made the remark to me that, I believe in the process of dialing the first one of two numbers he called, that what happened to the President was terrible, and of course, I agreed, but I got most of my information when I was just immediately adjacent to him as he used the phone there.

Mr. HUBERT. You are making a gesture there which indicates about 2 feet?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; or less.

Mr. HUBERT. You were within 2 feet of him when he conversed?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear voices on the other end of the phone?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I could not.

Mr. HUBERT. But you gathered your information from his remarks that you could clearly hear?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s, of course, been reported in this Exhibit No. 1, and you say it is correctly reported?

Mr. HALLMARK. It’s very good.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have mentioned in your report here on the first page that he was speaking to someone and told that person that his clubs would be closed, and then the conversation, as you put it here, switched to some remarks concerning the transfer of Oswald.

Can you elaborate on that and tell us in more detail specifically what type of remarks those were?

Mr. HALLMARK. He was--he told this person who he had established as being Ken, that he had been to the city hall and was following this thing, and he had information to the effect that the transfer was to take place that afternoon. I got the impression that he had some information and possibly wanted corroboration. In other words, he just was not 100 percent sure, but he had--he thought he knew that the thing was to take place then, but was not 100 percent sure. Then, he remarked that people started strewing flowers at the scene of the assassination, which is in the immediate locale of the county jail, so that possibly because of the congestion they would not transfer Oswald that afternoon. Oswald’s name--I don’t recall definitely that Oswald’s name was mentioned. He kept referring to him as “he”.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were aware that he was talking to a newspaper reporter, weren’t you, a Wes Wise?

Mr. HALLMARK. He was talking to, if I may tell you something I found out since or I think I found out, he was talking to a diskjockey on one of the local radio stations.

Mr. HUBERT. His original call had been then to a man by the name of Wes Wise--Wesley Wise?

Mr. HALLMARK. He asked for Wes Wise.

Mr. HUBERT. What radio station would that be?

Mr. HALLMARK. I believe that would be Ken Dowe with KLIF. This I think I found out since the trial.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words; he first asked for Wes Wise?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And your recollection is he soon discovered he was talking to Ken and so made a remark that indicated he was?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his efforts to corroborate the time of the transfer were successful or not? I mean, did you get the impression that this man he was talking to confirmed Ruby’s apparent thought that the move would be made that Saturday afternoon?

Mr. HALLMARK. I really don’t think he did. I believe that as the conversation progressed and turned out, that Ruby had more information or perhaps, and I don’t know what the other guy knew, but perhaps he just wasn’t putting anything out.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you got the impression that Ruby, who was seeking information, was not in fact getting any but giving some?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s true; and it just suited him to be putting out this information.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he seemed pleased with himself?

Mr. HALLMARK. He seemed pleased with himself; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you make the statement here that one of the remarks he made was “You know I’ll be there”. Do you recall in what context that was, I mean, what had immediately preceded that, so that we might be able to gain some light as to where he said he would be?

Mr. HALLMARK. He planned to be on the scene of the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what you gathered from that remark?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what preceded it so that we could get the basis of forming an impression ourselves of what this phrase “You know I’ll be there” referred to?

Mr. HALLMARK. The conversation that preceded that statement was that about the strewing of the flowers and the possible delay of the transfer. In other words, immediately after he said that possibly the thing would be delayed, he listened for a period of time, maybe 20 seconds and closed the conversation with, “You know I’ll be there”.

Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that that referred to the jail?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, one other thing I want to cover is that you make a statement that it was your impression that Ruby would not allow the girls who worked in his establishment either as waitresses or entertainers to make dates out of the club. Can you tell us how you obtained that information?

Mr. HALLMARK. Well, in the 3 plus years that I have known Ruby, we’ve probably--I can say conservatively that we have talked 30 minutes a week about first one thing or another. Ruby was a good neighbor, and, of course, he pushed my operation there in this garage, and it was through those conversations that influenced my thinking from a standpoint of--I mean--this wouldn’t have anything to do with morals, it would be because Ruby knew that he could get himself in trouble, you know, lose his license.

Mr. HUBERT. That impression came from a series of conversations that spread over possibly 3 years?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; right.

Mr. HUBERT. All of which indicated to you that he would not tolerate the dating of his girls, but that principally he was motivated by the fact that he could get into difficulty if he did?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; true, because he could lose his liquor license.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever advert specifically to his losing his liquor license or is that an example that just simply occurs to you?

Mr. HALLMARK. That’s just something that occurs to me. He had knowledge of the fact certainly that the Dallas Police Department checks on that type of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m trying to get at--do you specifically remember him saying something to the effect that I wouldn’t do that because I might lose my license?

Mr. HALLMARK. I don’t recall his ever stating that definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you thought that during the 3 years, more or less, period you probably spoke to Ruby probably 30 minutes a week at odd times?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; probably.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him express any ideas concerning a political philosophy?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever discuss international politics or ideologies?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the 23d when you saw him, what was your impression of his reaction to the death of President Kennedy?

Mr. HALLMARK. I described him to Mr. Carter as being a preoccupied and an intense person.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean generally so?

Mr. HALLMARK. Generally so. Ruby was--everything was either black or white with Ruby. There was no inbetween. He almost always in these conversations which I would have with him, he would probably be listening to me but he would be staring off--at anything.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that’s during the 3 years you knew him?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; and on this afternoon he was just more so. After he had closed this conversation with the diskjockey or newsman, if you prefer, he walked east on Commerce Street away from his club. In other words, he walked up past--I don’t know at what point he walked, but he walked past his competitors.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Colony Club?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; that’s right, and he was gone about 2 minutes and he came back and when he came back he stopped right outside this cashier’s cage and stood there and looked for--it seemed like 2 full minutes. He acted like he wanted to say something, but he never did until he said, “I’ll see you, Claud”, and then he went and got in his car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you form the impression then, on the 23d, that he was acting a bit differently than he usually did or has that impression been formed in retrospect?

Mr. HALLMARK. The best words I can think of to use--he was typically himself only more so.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, did you get the impression of the “more so” then or did you think about it later and realize that it was more so?

Mr. HALLMARK. I got it then.

Mr. HUBERT. You got it then and there?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t comment to anybody about it?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the 23d you had the mental reflection that Ruby is acting a little bit differently than he usually does?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; and the remarks which he made. He remarked to me and the first person he talked to on the telephone about what had happened to the President was terrible. Of course, I would certainly not object to his using the phone, he has used it numerous times, but I just acted, you know, I just left him alone. I didn’t try to engage him in any conversation or anything because, or partially because of the way he was acting.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the manifestations of a difference in his attitude not only impressed itself on your memory at the time, but actually caused you to behave toward him differently than normally you would have?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; it did, although I don’t recall having anything that I wanted to talk to him about.

Mr. HUBERT. But you mentioned a moment ago that you refrained deliberately from your normal attitude with him?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of the strangeness of his attitude?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; I didn’t want to impose myself on his thoughts whatever they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he was worried about the effect of the assassination of President Kennedy on his own business affairs?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; not except for the fact that he closed both his clubs. He had closed them the night prior and they were to be closed that night and the next, but he said nothing about the money it would cost him to close. He did ask me about the other--the neighboring places of business like his own. He asked me if I knew whether they would be open or not, and, of course, I told him that I did not know, and so he stated that they wouldn’t have nerve enough to open after they had seen his ad. At the time I had not seen his ad. I looked at it later, and he had run an ad in the paper which stated that his clubs would be closed. It was a good-sized ad for that type place.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he comment about the effect of the assassination on his future business rather than on the closing for the 3 days?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; he made no comment about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment concerning his worry that for some reason the Jews might be implicated in the killing of the President on account of the Weissman ad?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I heard nothing of that nature. As a matter of fact in having known him, I don’t know, and of course, I realize that Ruby was Jewish, but I don’t believe that I ever heard him say anything related to the fact that he was a Jew. I believe I would--rather people would get the impression that he was not Jewish. This is from looking at the thing and remembering it.

Mr. HUBERT. In retrospect?

Mr. HALLMARK. In retrospect.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any sensitivity on his part because he was a Jew?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I have never. Like I say, I believe that he would--I think he would rather people have not known that he was a Jew, but that’s my thinking, just because of the fact that we have never touched upon that in any of our conversations.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a boy by the name of Larry Crafard who worked for Ruby for awhile?

Mr. HALLMARK. Now, when was that?

Mr. HUBERT. Just before the assassination of the President last year?

Mr. HALLMARK. No; I do not recall that name. I did not ever try to strike up an acquaintance with any of Ruby’s employees.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, your duties cause you to move around from one place to the other?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many places did you have under your supervision?

Mr. HALLMARK. I’m in charge of about eight downtown garages, specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. You were then?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes. When Ruby first moved into the Carousel it was the Sovereign Club, and I was the manager at that one specific garage then and that was Nichols Garage, and I don’t remember exactly at what point I was made general manager and moved out, as you have described.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have sort of a headquarters office?

Mr. HALLMARK. Yes; I headquartered--in other words, I usually parked my car there at 1320 Commerce, probably out of habit, but that was usually the first place in the morning and the last place in the evening. I generally called that headquarters at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t know any of the people who worked there as entertainers?

Mr. HALLMARK. I knew them by sight only. I never tried to strike up a conversation with any of them or any acquaintance.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, is there anything else you would like to add, sir?

Mr. HALLMARK. I don’t think so--I can’t think of anything that I would want to add.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t believe there has been any conversation between us except that which has been recorded, is that correct?

Mr. HALLMARK. I believe that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. HALLMARK. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. And I appreciate your taking the time to do so--thank you very much.

Mr. HALLMARK. All right, thank you, Mr. Hubert.

TESTIMONY OF ALFRED DOUGLAS HODGE

The testimony of Alfred Douglas Hodge was taken at 2:55 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Alfred Douglas Hodge.

Mr. Hodge, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Hodge, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth.

Now, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, isn’t that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was probably dated the 22d of June and you received it yesterday or the day before?

Mr. HODGE. The day before.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice before their depositions may be taken, dated from the date of the letter, which rule may have been complied with here, but in any case the rules also provide that any witness may waive that 3-day notice and I ask you now if you are willing to testify at the present time?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand so I may administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your name, please?

Mr. HODGE. Alfred Douglas Hodge.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. HODGE. At 6573 Kenwood.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HODGE. Fifty-five.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. HODGE. I have a gunshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear any trade name?

Mr. HODGE. Buckhorn Trading Post.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mr. HODGE. 215 South Ervay.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that also connected with a bar?

Mr. HODGE. That’s 213--it’s the bar next door to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You operate both businesses?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Both called “Buckhorn”--one is the Buckhorn Bar and the other is the Buckhorn Trading Post?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the Trading Post sells guns?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you officially licensed to do so under the laws of the State of Texas?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I have previously today shown you a document which I have marked for identification in the right-hand margin as follows; “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the Deposition of A. D. Hodge”, and I have signed my name below that. That document purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Anderton and Hardin on November 24, 1963, and I ask you if that report of the interview is substantially correct?

Mr. HODGE (read instrument referred to). Well, now--this--the Dallas Police Department----

Mr. HUBERT. What line are you talking about?

Mr. HODGE. Right here--“The Dallas Police Department wanted him to check all of his records concerning the sale of the assassinator’s weapon”--I don’t recall the Dallas Police did that. I did that on my own and I called the FBI and they came down and he kind of went over the books with me, you see.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you are speaking, Mr. Hodge, of the last three lines of the second paragraph of this document, right?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where it indicates that the Dallas Police asked you to do that, and the fact is, you said you made that investigation yourself and reported what you had found to the FBI and to the Dallas police?

Mr. HODGE. I might have reported it to the Dallas police--I do that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: I understand from the conversations we had prior to the beginning of this interview that this interview does not contain the entire story?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It does not contain the entire story of your participation in this matter, and I’m going to get that in just a moment by asking you to give the entire story as you gave it to me a moment ago, but this document as far as it goes, is correct, I take it?

Mr. HODGE. Now, he didn’t ask me, “Have they arrested you?” He didn’t say that. He says, “What are you doing up here?”

Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps if I question you, the differences between what this Exhibit No. 1 says and what your testimony is will become manifest, and to what extent your testimony differs from Exhibit No. 1, then of course Exhibit No. 1 will be in error, is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we do it this way: Let me question you and then we will talk a little while about Exhibit No. 1. What was your first contact with the entire matter of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. HODGE. When it came in over the radio that he had been killed with a 7-millimeter rifle, my wife and myself--we got our book and started checking to see who we had sold a 7-millimeter rifle to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell a 7-millimeter rifle?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; several of them--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear this report?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, it must have been right after the--I don’t even know what time it was--it was right after dinner.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d of November, is that it?

Mr. HODGE. I guess so.

Mr. HUBERT. It was right after the President was shot, I take it--some time right after?

Mr. HODGE. That was the day he was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. You heard over the radio that he had been shot with a 7-millimeter rifle?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you and your wife proceeded to check your records to see whether you had sold any such rifle to anyone?

Mr. HODGE. And then I called the FBI and they came down. They sent an agent down and we showed him who we had sold them to, and I think later that afternoon another one came back and wanted to know who we sold the ammunition to, and I told him about three fellows that had uniforms on with a bread truck--uniforms, you know, and they took those descriptions and wasn’t going to check into that.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. HODGE. Well, that night I went home--that afternoon at 6 o’clock and Capt. Will Fritz called me and asked me to come--if I could come by or he would send a squad car out and pick me up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Captain Fritz?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, I know them all well.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that he called you?

Mr. HODGE. It was approximately 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. That night? That was 11:30 at night?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he want you to do?

Mr. HODGE. He wanted me to come down and look at the guns and see if I could identify them, or if I had ever seen them before.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that he offered to send a squad car for you?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I told him I had to go down and close the bar down and I was on my way to town and that that would be unnecessary and I would come by, and he told me to park my car down in the basement, and I said “The police may not want me to,” and he said, “Tell them I said so,” so I pulled down in the basement and I couldn’t find a place to park, and I parked in front of some cars, detectives’ cars--plain cars, and I went up on the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said something about having a dog in your car?

Mr. HODGE. I have a Dalmatian dog, watchdog.

Mr. HUBERT. You left him in the car?

Mr. HODGE. I left him in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. You then proceeded from the basement to what floor?

Mr. HODGE. The third floor.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go?

Mr. HODGE. On the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you escorted by anyone?

Mr. HODGE. No; not until I got in.

Mr. HUBERT. You took the elevator in the basement?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got off, what happened?

Mr. HODGE. When I stepped out, three policemen stepped in front of me and said, “What do you want up here?” and I said, “Captain Fritz sent for me” and one of them went into Captain Fritz’ office and came back and two of Captain Fritz’ detectives--they were.

Mr. HUBERT. In plain clothes?

Mr. HODGE. In plain clothes, and they got me and escorted me into his office.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir; and we had just sat down and the lady on the desk that answered the phone and she said, “Mr. Hodge, your dog will not let the detectives get their car, would you mind going back down and moving it?” and two of the detectives escorted me back down.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it then?

Mr. HODGE. That was about 11:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz called you at about 11:05?

Mr. HODGE. A little after 11.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time of that initial call by Fritz?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I left my house at 11:30 and I usually get down to my store--it takes me about 20 minutes, and we close the place down at 12, the bar, and so it gives me about 30 minutes from my home to the bar, and I was finishing shaving and getting ready to leave to come back to my bar.

Mr. HUBERT. So you left your house about what time?

Mr. HODGE. About 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And that means that you got to the jail about what time?

Mr. HODGE. About 11:45 or 11:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, by the time you got the call to go back out again to move your car it was near 12 o’clock?

Mr. HODGE. It was around 12 o’clock. Yes; probably 5 minutes until 12; I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was in Captain Fritz’ office when you went in first?

Mr. HODGE. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald there?

Mr. HODGE. I didn’t see Oswald. I have never seen him except on TV, but Captain Fritz has one office--I don’t know which office is his, but the one on the left has a glass window in it, and when I went in this hallway, out in the hallway where all the TV cameras was, there was another hallway, and Captain Fritz waved at me--he seen me through this glass and there was several people in there with him, and I went on in a little office not quite as big as this and sat down. There was four or five people there, and the lady on the desk--the phone rang, and she said, “Mr. Hodge, you left a dog down in your car and the detectives wants to move that car and they can’t move it, and would you go down and move it,” and two of the detectives got up and went with me to the elevator and got on the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. They were in plain clothes?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?

Mr. HODGE. No; so several other people came in on the elevator and this fellow who turned out to be Jack Ruby was right up against me and he turned around and he said, “Hello, there, Hodge, how are you getting along?” and shook hands, and I looked at him and I knew I knew him but it didn’t dawn on me who he was. I couldn’t think of his name although it had been 3 or 4 years since I’d seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. How had you known him in the past?

Mr. HODGE. Well, when he first got to Dallas, I guess, he took over his sister’s lounge, which is further down Ervay Street, and a lot of nights you know, he would come up there after he closed his place up, which would be 1 or 2 o’clock, you know, and I would still be cleaning up and he would visit, being down below me there, and he would ask me my opinions how to operate a bar and so forth and all.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had known him what--10 or 15 years?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, about that, but I hadn’t seen him in the last 4 or 5 years.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so you got on the elevator with the two detectives who were escorting you down and some other people got on and among the other people was a man you now identify as Jack Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and the next day--Sunday----

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute--let’s not get to that yet. So, he turns around and what did he say--did he address you or you address him?

Mr. HODGE. He addressed me.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say to you?

Mr. HODGE. He stuck out his hand and I took his hand and shook hands with him.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what was said?

Mr. HODGE. He said, “What are you doing up here?”

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you that?

Mr. HODGE. The very words, and I said, “They’ve got me arrested”--just like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You said, “They’ve got me arrested”?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I felt that that would be all of it--I didn’t want to tell him why or go into any details as to what I was doing up there because it wasn’t none of his business, and he said, “You’re kidding. You fellows don’t have him arrested, do you?”

Mr. HUBERT. Who did he say that to?

Mr. HODGE. To the two detectives. He said, “You fellows don’t have Hodge arrested, do you?” And, they just laughed--they didn’t answer back, and he turned around to me and he said, “What do you know about it?” And I said, “It’s a long story.” By that time he was at the main floor, so he gets off on the main floor and we go on to the basement and move my car and these two detectives escort me back up to Captain Fritz’ office. We went back in there, waded back through these TV cameras back into his office, and Mr. Baker--I didn’t even know it was Baker until today, and he called me and told me, he said, “Mr. Hodge, I’m the man that took you from Captain Fritz’ office up to the fourth floor and showed you the guns”, and when I looked at them, I said, “I’d never seen those guns before,” and so that was all of it and I left.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you moved your car and went on up with the same two detectives who brought you down, you went to the third floor--you went back to Captain Fritz’ office, and then you went to the fourth floor where the guns were?

Mr. HODGE. Baker took me up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you looked at the guns and you didn’t identify them. How did you get out?

Mr. HODGE. I just come back and got on the elevator and went on down in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anybody have to identify you to get out?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Baker come with you?

Mr. HODGE. I believe he did. He come back to the elevator and he got off, I think, on the--I’m not positive about that, but he could have gotten off on the third floor, and this FBI agent and I want to say his name is Wilson, but I’m not positive, who I had called that day and he had been down to the store and checked the books with me--he was on the elevator too and I spoke to him.

Mr. HUBERT. This was when you were going down to go home?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you left the police station?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I didn’t go home--I went to my store.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it when you left the police station?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I think I got to the store approximately 12:15. There was two FBI agents waiting there for me when I got there, and so they told me they wanted to see me, and we walked on into the bar, I mean, into the gunshop and they said, “Mr. Hodge,” and they showed me their badges and all that about themselves--identified themselves, and they said, “there’s an operator in Fort Smith, Arkansas that got an anonymous call this afternoon stating ‘If you want to know who killed the President, check with the manager of the Buckhorn Bar.’” I said, “That could be one of my bartenders or it could be he probably throwed some drunk out and he just wanted to be important and wanted to get back at the bartender,” and they said, “Well, don’t think nothin’ about it.” They said, “We got one call this afternoon, Mr. Hodge, from a woman that told us that her husband just confessed to killing the President,” and so that was that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of the FBI visit to you--to check out this call, you say?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; yes, that was their purpose, I guess. That’s what they said.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they ask you whether you knew Oswald?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, yes; they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever in fact seen Oswald?

Mr. HODGE. I have never seen him in my life that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you sold a gun to Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never sold a gun to Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. I think Ray’s Hardware sold that gun, so I’ve been told.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, when you saw Ruby on the elevator?

Mr. HODGE. It was right within 10 minutes, I’d say 10 minutes till 12 or 12 minutes to 12.

Mr. HUBERT. And he got off on the main floor?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went down one level further?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; we went on to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about an assembly room meeting where Oswald was first shown to all the press who congregated in the assembly room of the police department?

Mr. HODGE. That’s the first time I had been up there and the last time to Captain Fritz’ office--and I don’t know when I have ever been up to Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about this showing of Oswald to the newsmen assembled in the assembly room downstairs about this time?

Mr. HODGE. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police seem to know Ruby, that is, the ones who were escorting you?

Mr. HODGE. They just laughed--that’s all that was said. They never answered him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he asked them, “Is it true that you’ve got him under arrest?”

Mr. HODGE. He said, “You fellows don’t have Hodge under arrest, do you?” and they just laughed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to catch the joke or understand or did he seem to believe that you were under arrest?

Mr. HODGE. Well, he was standing to my side and I didn’t turn around and look at him. I didn’t notice the expression on his face. When he looked across over to these detectives, they was over on the right-hand side and I was in the back--in the back of the elevator and it didn’t dawn on me who he was until the next day when I was out at Red Jackson’s.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean was the 24th?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; on Sunday. Yes--on Sunday, the following Sunday when Ruby is supposed to have shot Oswald, when this Congressman called and asked Mr. Jackson and said that Jack Ruby shot him, I said, “My God, that’s who rode the elevator down with me. I knew I knowed him but I didn’t recognize him” and I said, “I didn’t recognize him until now.”

Mr. HUBERT. All right--a couple more questions----

Mr. HODGE. Pardon me--that same Sunday that this had happened, that afternoon I had some friends from Waco come up and they were gun collectors and they had an auction out here and after I left Mr. Jackson I went by the auction and went back to the gunshop and they went with me and we were in the gunshop and there was two more FBI agents came in and we walked back to the back and they showed me a picture of a striptease girl that had worked for Jack Ruby and wanted to know if I knew her and if I knew her whereabouts and I had never seen the girl before, because I don’t visit those places, and I had never been in one of Jack Ruby’s places, because I’ve got my hands full tending to my own business, and also, they wanted to know if I ever seen Jack Ruby and Oswald together, and I’d never seen Jack Ruby for 4 years or longer.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, returning to your statement, which has been identified as Exhibit No. 1, it appears that the third paragraph of that statement is completely at variance with what you have just testified to. That is to say, that paragraph indicates that he asked you “whether they had arrested you,” whereas your testimony is that you in a semiserious manner indicated to him that you were under arrest and he asked you whether you weren’t kidding and then turned to the police----

Mr. HODGE. No; he didn’t say, “Are you kidding.” Yes; he did--he said, “You’re kidding,” but I said it low, I didn’t want to go into detail why I was up there and it wasn’t none of his business and I knew I knew him but I didn’t know just who he was at the moment, and I just--I don’t know why you would say those things, but I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the point I’m trying to make is that this third paragraph is deficient in two ways: One is that it has him asking you whether you were under arrest, whereas, you, in fact, told him in the manner you have described, that you were under arrest, and then he asked you whether you were kidding or not, and you told him “No,” and he asked you what you had to do with it, and you said, “It’s a long, long story” and all of which is not in this paragraph, nor is there in this paragraph the portion about his turning to the police and asking them if it was true, and their laughing about it. That’s not in here either?

Mr. HODGE. Well, I told those agents just like I’ve told you.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand that, but in any case--all I’m trying to do is to reconcile Exhibit No. 1 with your testimony, and in order to do so I have to bring out that this third paragraph of Exhibit No. 1 and as it is here is incorrect and incomplete--both: is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the statement you have given us here is what is the truth and is what you say you did tell the FBI agents?

Mr. HODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Prior to the beginning of your testimony, you had conversed with me a bit along the lines that I have questioned you about, and is it not a fact that all of the matter that we talked about prior to the beginning of this deposition has now been brought out in the course of the deposition? To put it another way, that we have not--that we did not discuss prior to the taking of this deposition anything which has not been covered in the deposition?

Mr. HODGE. I believe that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Because--if you can think of anything that we talked about that has not been put down in the record, I want to get it in. I can’t think of anything, but I’m asking you?

Mr. HODGE. Well, now, yesterday and today I called Captain Fritz and also Mr. Baker and they both promised to get the names of those two detectives that took me downstairs on that elevator and get them to verify the fact that----

Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby was there?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; that Jack Ruby was there, and that he said those words, and I didn’t recognize Jack Ruby on that elevator until the next day out at Mr. Jackson’s and when they said Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you did say to the FBI people when they interviewed you on the 24th that you had gone down on the elevator with two detectives and with Ruby? You told them that, although it doesn’t appear in this exhibit?

Mr. HODGE. Now, which is the 24th?

Mr. HUBERT. The 24th is Sunday.

Mr. HODGE. Yes; I told them that Sunday afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. You told them Sunday afternoon that you had gone down the elevator in the company of two detectives and Jack Ruby?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you told that to anyone else since?

Mr. HODGE. Oh, I’ve told it to several people--the detectives, Captain Fritz, and all of them, they knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from Captain Fritz about who those two men were?

Mr. HODGE. No; he hasn’t called me. He had Baker to call me and Baker told me, he said, “Mr. Hodge, now”----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s today--Baker called today?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; Baker called this morning. He said, “I’m the one that took you from Captain Fritz’ office up to the fourth floor and showed you the gun,” and he said, “I’ll find out who the two boys was that escorted you back down to the basement to move your car.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell Captain Fritz that you had gone down the elevator with Ruby and two detectives?

Mr. HODGE. I told him that day before yesterday.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean prior to that time?

Mr. HODGE. No; I don’t think I had. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had told the FBI people?

Mr. HODGE. I sure did. I told them the whole story. I said--I guess this is the same--is this the two that questioned me about the telephone call?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, sir. This is the interview by Agents Anderton and Hardin.

Mr. HODGE. I used to know practically all those agents down there--the FBI agents--when Murphy was there and the agent in charge before him, and I used to keep their file in my place.

Mr. HUBERT. These are the agents who interviewed you on Sunday, not on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; you see, that was Sunday afternoon after I found out--it dawned on me who Jack was--and it was about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, I’d say, when they came in the gunshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever interviewed thereafter, after Jack Ruby shot Oswald, by the Dallas police?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The only other interview you had was with the FBI?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right, but I told all those detectives with homicide, the different ones that have been in my place, and I repeated just what I’ve told you, that it was Jack Ruby that rode down on the elevator and asked me those questions.

Mr. HUBERT. And that there were two Dallas Police Department detectives with you and him, Ruby, on the elevator at the time?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You have told that to others?

Mr. HODGE. To numerous others.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you mention any names?

Mr. HODGE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you spoke to Captain Fritz about it the other day, that was the first time you had talked to Captain Fritz about that aspect; is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?

Mr. HODGE. No. He was on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. But he said he would try to find out who those people were?

Mr. HODGE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you’ve had a call from Baker and who identified himself as having escorted you to the fourth floor and Baker said he would try to find out who the other two men were and let you know, but he has not done so up until now; is that right?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it that suggested to you that you ought to have the names of those men?

Mr. HODGE. Well, it would verify that he did ride the elevator down with us and that the conversation did take place.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after you got the letter from Mr. Rankin asking you to appear here today that it occurred to you that you ought to have the names of those men so that you could tell me those names if I asked you about it; is that correct?

Mr. HODGE. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s when you called Captain Fritz just yesterday, Thursday, June the 25th?

Mr. HODGE. That’s right and he told me, he said, “I’ll tell you, I’ve got a bunch that works days and nights and I’ll have to question all of them, but I’ll find out which one it was.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you could recognize those men if you saw them?

Mr. HODGE. You know, I thought it was Potts and Baker, but they say Potts works burglary and theft, but they could have had some of the burglary and theft men over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Baker is the one that took you up on the fourth floor?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; that’s what he verified today.

Mr. HUBERT. But Baker was not one of the men who took you downstairs?

Mr. HODGE. I wouldn’t swear to it--of course, they may not want to come forth and tell it, you see, but there’s nothing to hide, and if it will help, I think that they should do it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you expect to hear from Captain Fritz still?

Mr. HODGE. I’m going to call him back and see what he’s found out, but they agreed to call me back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know what time you were going to appear here today?

Mr. HODGE. I told him today at 2:30--told Baker.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. I think that’s all, and I thank you very much.

Mr. HODGE. I only hope this will be of some help to you. If you’re down that way on Ervay Street, stop by my gunshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you, I have depositions all tonight and tomorrow in the day and it’s very unlikely I’ll be able to do it.

Mr. HODGE. I have a lot of antique guns and modern guns too, although you may not be interested in them.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know much about guns. Frankly, I would like to say I would accept your invitation, but I know I am going to be busy tonight and tomorrow with these depositions.

Mr. HODGE. I’m not throwing myself no bouquets, but I have always cooperated with the FBI, and as I say, they fingerprinted me, they took my life history and everything and they turned their file over to me. I had several agents I was good friends to in the past, and you can find out by talking to two or three, and of course, they move them about, but you can find out that there were some criminals, you know, that would be in that bar, and I opened up this gunshop and it’s just around the corner from the bus station and these drifters come in and going through, and they will verify what I told you.

And, I’ll tell you--some people call you a stool pigeon and it looks to me like you can be a good citizen, but the courts won’t protect you on these things. This fellow that killed this man and woman out here--if you’ve got a minute?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HODGE. Well, Captain Fritz’ men came by with a shell, a Peters Wad Cutter, and that’s this man and woman that got killed a few days ago out here and it has no concern with this case, but anyway, I checked my book and I found where I sold that man a gun and a box of ammunition, and they couldn’t find nobody else that had that particular kind of ammunition, they said, so I called Captain Fritz and gave them that information and they went out and called me back in 2 hours and they said, “Boy, you’re just as right as rain,” and I give them a list of all the .45 automatics I had sold, and so they went out and picked up this bloody uniform and got a confession from him and he admitted everything and got the gun and the amount of ammunition that they found at the scene plus what was in the box, and so I cooperate fully with them, but you stick your neck out. Some of those characters--if this man gets out on bond, what’s to keep him from coming down there and killing me? But I believe it’s being a good citizen if you know anything, to come forth with it and tell it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything other than what you’ve said to me or anybody else that you would like to say about this matter?

Mr. HODGE. Everybody’s got an opinion and it’s talked around--of course--there’s pro and con, but they all seem to think that--I have heard different ones talking and they seem to think that there is a connection there between those two, Oswald and Ruby, and that probably Ruby was--I guess you know about him, that they found a bunch of money--about $10,000 in his apartment, and people talking say it’s payoff money, but I don’t know nothing. That’s the first time I’d seen that Jack Ruby in 4 or 5 years and it didn’t dawn on me who he was, and I just thought I’d just shut him up, and when he asked me that, I just said in a low voice, “They’ve got me arrested,” and he said, “Oh, you fellows don’t have Hodge arrested, do you?”

Mr. HUBERT. No; what I was trying to get at--is there anything you have not stated to anyone, any facts or knowledge that you have concerning Ruby or Oswald or the assassination of the President that you haven’t told anybody that you want to take advantage of this occasion to say it?

Mr. HODGE. If there is, I don’t recall what it is, because I’ve told you just straight down the middle of what had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I didn’t know what you were leading up to awhile ago and perhaps it was nothing at all, but as I say, if there’s anything you want to say, you could say it now, you know?

Mr. HODGE. Yes; and I would, but that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you, sir; very much.

Mr. HODGE. Thank you a lot. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DAVID L. JOHNSTON

The testimony of David L. Johnston was taken at 2 p.m. on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of David L. Johnston.

Mr. Johnston, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. Johnston, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations, movements, and associates.

Now, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of that letter, do you have it?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The letter is rubber stamped June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. And you received it when?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It was received in the U.S. Post Office, Dallas, Tex., on June 23, and had to be forwarded to the Post Office at Richardson, Tex., where it was received on June 24, and I received the same on June 24, 1964 at 12:10 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission which you have probably complied with here, every witness has a right to a 3-day written notice before their deposition can be taken, counting from the date of the letter, but in any case the rules provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will waive that at this time, if it’s involved here; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you. Would you rise and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am David L. Johnston.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am 36; I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your address?

Mr. JOHNSTON. My residence address is 100 North Dorothy in Richardson, Tex. My office address is in the County Government Center, 1411 West Beltline Road, Richardson, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am the elected justice of the peace, precinct No. 2 of Dallas County, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a lawyer too?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I am not an attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. What term are you serving?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I am serving my second elected term, which expires December 31, 1966.

Mr. HUBERT. The term is for how long?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Four years.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been in that office for how long?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I took office January 1, 1959. Prior to that I was with the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department for 9½ years.

Mr. HUBERT. Under Sheriff Decker?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Under Sheriff Decker; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What are the general duties of the justice of the peace in Texas?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The justice of the peace in Texas has civil jurisdiction up to $200 in civil matters; has misdemeanor jurisdiction as provided by the statutes for criminal offenses of a misdemeanor nature in which the fine does not exceed $200 plus the costs. He is the acting coroner under our statutes. He is a magistrate. He can hold courts of inquiry, issue search warrants or any process relevant to a felonious act in the State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. How many such justices are there in Dallas County?

Mr. JOHNSTON. In Dallas County there are 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it based on geographical area division?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It is divided into precincts, but in criminal matters, the 10 have coextensive jurisdiction with the county and in some cases with the State. Our warrants of arrest, for instance, are valid anywhere in the State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you elected by the people of the precinct?

Mr. JOHNSTON. By the people of the precinct; yes, sir, and that’s by the precinct level.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s a geographical area?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to November 22, 1963, did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I have seen Jack Ruby, I did not know him personally--have never been introduced to him; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where had you seen him?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I’ve seen him in downtown Dallas. I saw him one night in front of the Vegas Club on Oaklawn. I have seen him around the courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. People have pointed him out to you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The night at the Vegas Club, an officer said, “That’s Jack Ruby.” That’s all I can tell you there. Like I said, I’ve never met the man--I had never met the man until Friday night, November 22, or the early morning of November 23.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was a character apparently that people would point out to a man of your standing, that is to say, as being a character in the Dallas area?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; this is possible. Like I say, I’m sure that there has been other occasions that I’ve seen the man. I just can’t recall them at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. On the 22d or the 23d, at anytime when you did see him, you recognized the face and of course you recognized the name?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I didn’t recognize him as such. To clarify that, as stated in the report that I gave to the FBI--this is the card that Mr. Ruby handed to me after Mr. Oswald had been removed from the police detail room. He handed me this card and introduced himself to me as Jack Ruby. He was present in that room the whole time that Oswald was in the detail room, which was the late night of November 22 and the early morning of November 23, from approximately 11:30 p.m. until maybe 12:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the assembly room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; in the detail room or the assembly room of the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. It is also used as the showup room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; it’s used as the showup room and the showup screen was right behind where Oswald was standing and Ruby was standing--if this was the actual room, the showup room would be at my back now, which would be the south wall of this room. Oswald was standing in the aisleway here in front of the desk.

Mr. HUBERT. In front of the screen.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Ruby was in the same row back behind two tables with chairs in front of them. I was standing on the little podium with Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney of Dallas County, and a couple of the Dallas police officers and I can’t at this time recall who they were, but we were standing on the podium part and were about 10 feet from Oswald. Mr. Ruby was, I would say, from 18 to 22 feet out in front of us.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first notice him there?

Mr. JOHNSTON. When he came up and introduced himself to me.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had been removed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was after Oswald had been removed from the room. Chief Curry ordered him removed because the newspaper people started milling a little too much, which he told them he was going to do, and he removed him from the room.

Mr. HUBERT. But your thought was and is now that Oswald was in that room for approximately 30 or 40 minutes?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You said it was between 11:30 and 12:15?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; it was between 11:30 and 12:15, but I would say that they had Oswald in that room less than 10 minutes.

Everyone was in there and set up. Chief Curry came in and told them that they would have to remain still, that if they started milling or if they started moving he was going to remove the suspect, which when they did, he removed him.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the room prior to the time Oswald was brought in?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I would say probably 10 minutes, maybe 15.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe Ruby during the time that you were in the room prior to the time Oswald came in?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I can say that he was in the room because I was watching everyone that was in the room.

Mr. HUBERT. But he actually didn’t introduce himself until Oswald left?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Until Oswald had been removed; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing on a table or chair or something like that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I believe that at one time he was either on a chair or the table. When I first noticed the man he was standing on the floor, and I believe towards the last he was up either on a chair or on a table.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statement or make any kind of comment at all at any time?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Something like “It’s horrible, isn’t it horrible?” or something of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. That was to you yourself?

Mr. JOHNSTON. To me and to Mr. Henry Wade, the district attorney of Dallas County.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald had been removed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was after Oswald had been removed. He came up shortly after one of the newspaper media had just finished interviewing Mr. Henry Wade. He was standing behind that person during the interview and when he finished that was when he introduced himself, both to Henry Wade and to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he make any comment?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Just this--“It’s horrible” or “Isn’t this awful” or something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general demeanor or attitude?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I personally would say that the man had control of himself, that he did not seem to me that he was away out in space or anything like that; he was coherent.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; at that time I don’t think he was, other than this statement, as I said, that he made--“Isn’t it horrible, isn’t it terrible?”--something to that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you judge that to be a commonplace statement of the day--that everybody was saying?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I certainly would.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you the justice of peace that arraigned Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I arraigned Lee Harvey Oswald--let me give you the sequence of them--that’s the easiest thing to do. I brought the complete record and I have everything here. The first charge that was filed was for murder with malice of Officer J. D. Tippit of the Dallas Police Department in cause No. F-153, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald. This complaint was filed at 7:05 p.m. on the 22d day of November 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. By whom?

Mr. JOHNSTON. By Capt. J. W. Fritz, captain of the homicide bureau, Dallas Police Department, was accepted by W. F. Alexander who is William F. Alexander, an assistant criminal district attorney of Dallas County, Tex., which was passed over to me at 7:05 p.m. The actual complaint was signed at 7:04 p.m. and I arraigned Lee Harvey Oswald at 7:10 p.m. on November 22, 1963, advising him of his constitutional rights and that he had to make no statement at all, and that any statement he made may be used in evidence against him for the offense concerning which this affidavit was taken, and remanded the defendant to the custody of the sheriff of Dallas County, Tex., with no bond as capital offense.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your jurisdiction to do that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that occur?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That was in Captain Fritz’ office of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else was present?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Bill Alexander--William Alexander--an assistant district attorney; Captain Fritz--these are--if I can remember them--either two or three of the other homicide detectives; at least one Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, and which one I couldn’t say at this time because we were just all in and out of there, and I’m almost sure it was one of the FBI agents, and which one, I couldn’t say at this time because we were just all in and out of there, and I’m almost sure there was one of the FBI agents in the room and possibly a Secret Service agent.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been called specially for this arraignment or did you happen to be there?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I was first called to handle the issuance of the search warrant involving the residence at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you issue that search warrant?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; and not only did I issue the search warrant, I was requested by the officers to go with them and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander was in on that search also, which turned out to be the room in which Lee Harvey Oswald had been living on North Beckley. I was present when that search was made and also seizure of the things that were in his room.

Mr. HUBERT. Under Texas law is a man charged with murder required to be brought before a committing magistrate, such as you, right away?

Mr. JOHNSTON. This can be done immediately forthwith before the magistrate or a reasonable period of time--within a reasonable period of time of the filing.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurs at such time--at such a proceeding?

Mr. JOHNSTON. In this particular incident, the complaint--the affidavit--was read to the defendant, Lee Harvey Oswald, at which time I advised him that this was merely to appraise him of his constitutional rights and what he was charged with.

Mr. HUBERT. This was not a court proceeding?

Mr. JOHNSTON. This was not the examining trial; no, sir. It was not the examining trial.

Mr. HUBERT. It did not call for a plea?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It required no pleadings whatsoever; no, sir. This was merely to appraise him of what he was charged with and to advise him of his constitutional rights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment upon that at all?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; but I can’t recall what it was. At this particular time he made some remark. Also at the second arraignment for the murder of President Kennedy, when he was brought through the door at this time, he said, “Well, I guess this is the trial,” was the statement that he made then, but I don’t remember what he said at the arraignment regarding Officer Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s pass to the arraignment concerning President Kennedy, and I wish you would dictate into the record the same information you did as to the first one.

Mr. JOHNSTON. All right, sir. This was the arraignment of Lee Harvey Oswald for the murder with malice of John F. Kennedy, cause No. F-154, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald. The complaint was filed at 11:25 p.m., was accepted by me at 11:26 p.m. It was filed at approximately 11:25 p.m. by Capt. J. W. Fritz, homicide bureau of the Dallas Police Department, and was accepted by Henry Wade, criminal district attorney, Dallas County, Tex., and was docketed as cause No. 154, F-154 at 11:26 p.m.

Shortly after this is when the defendant was taken to the detail room or the assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened at this arraignment--was it the same as before?

Mr. JOHNSTON. He was not arraigned at this time. He was then arraigned after he was removed to the detail room where the press was allowed to have their first interview with the defendant, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Subsequently in a conference between Captain Fritz, Mr. Wade, and two or three of his assistants and myself, and Chief Curry--it was decided to go ahead and arraign him and that arraignment was held at 1:35 a.m., November 23, 1963, in the identification bureau of the Dallas Police Department, and once again I appraised him of his constitutional rights, read the affidavit, and advised him again that I remanded him to the custody of the sheriff, Dallas County, denying bond as capital offense. He was also told at both of these instances that he would be given the right to contact an attorney of his choice.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask this at either of these occasions?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; that was one of the first things he said--that he wanted this man from New York of the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes [spelling] A-b-t; however that’s pronounced. He said he would like to have this gentleman and I told Oswald when he made that statement that he would be given the opportunity to contact the attorney of his choice.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose duty was it to see that he was given that opportunity?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The telephone would be made available to him to make any call he wished to make and that would have been advanced to him through the normal routine: He possibly could have been given this permission at the city jail and also had he ever made it to the county jail, here again he would have been given the opportunity to contact a lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. In any event, you made it clear to him that he had a right to contact a lawyer?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That he had a right to be represented by counsel, that he had the right to make a telephone call to contact any person of his choice, and the assault to murder complaint, alleging the assault to murder of John B. Connally in cause No. F-155, The State of Texas versus Lee Harvey Oswald, this complaint was filed by Lt. Robert E. McKinney of the forgery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. This complaint was filed in my office at Richardson, Tex., at 6:15 p.m., on November 23, 1963, and the defendant was not arraigned in this case because he was already being held for two capital offenses. He would have been arraigned in this probably the following week had he lived.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell me how Ruby was dressed at the time you saw him?

Mr. JOHNSTON. As well as I can remember, the only thing I can say is a white shirt with a tie and a dark suit.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat on?

Mr. JOHNSTON. He either had the overcoat on or he had it over his arm. He did have an overcoat on.

Mr. HUBERT. What color was it?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I would say dark, is the best I can remember. He had on a hat also.

Mr. HUBERT. The time you spoke to Ruby was, as you have indicated, after Oswald had been taken from the assembly room and then Ruby came up and introduced himself to you and to Wade. Did you have any conversation with him at all?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I don’t remember exactly what was said by myself or Ruby, but I do remember that it closed with--when he had given me his card and he says, “Come by and see me sometime at the club”, and that was the closing statement that was made to me by Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you thereafter see him?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; only, I saw the incident of the shooting on the television, but I could not identify the man from the television picture.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him, did he have any kind of identification tag on?

Mr. JOHNSTON. A tag or anything; no, sir. There was nothing visible that I saw. Now, if I remember correctly, as I say, he may have had his overcoat over his arm--one arm or the other. He possibly could have had something on that overcoat, but I do not recall seeing any type of identification tag or an ID holder or anything hanging down that would show that he was a member of the press or an officer or anything else.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, he handed you his card and you said that at the time, he introduced himself to you and Mr. Wade. You have handed me here a 4-page document on yellow legal-sized paper, lined, did you mean for me to have this?

Mr. JOHNSTON. You can read that if you want to--that’s the only copy I have--no; I believe I do have a copy of that. I have furnished the FBI with a copy of this also. Here is a copy of it which I will be glad to give you and that’s a photostatic copy made by me.

This is my report that I wrote up starting on Monday morning after all of these incidents had occurred. If I might answer--you also asked me if I was called--I was asked by Assistant District Attorney William Alexander when we were leaving the property on North Beckley to please come on to Captain Fritz’ office at the Dallas Police Department for the purpose of being present to be able to accept a complaint and issue warrant, which was done.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that request made of you? I think the arraignment was at 7:05?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; and I think I could tell you approximately the time he asked me to, if I can find the time I have written in here when it was filed. I would say it was around 5 o’clock in the afternoon when he asked me--this search warrant was filed at 3:55 p.m. on November 22, and I also have a copy which I will give you of the officers’ names who I personally know were involved in the investigation, officers whom I had contact with both at the Dallas Police Department and at the sheriff’s office; to clear this up also, about how I came into this thing--my first contact--I was attending the luncheon, when one of the sergeants of the Dallas Police Department came to my table and asked me to please come with him, and I was then informed of what had happened, and was asked to go immediately to Parkland Hospital, and upon arriving there found Judge Theron Ward, the justice of the peace, Precinct 3, from Garland, handling the inquest on President Kennedy. They did not know Judge Ward and that’s the reason they had called me, not knowing he was already there.

Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me a photostatic copy of the document I referred to a moment ago as being a 4-page document on yellow, legal-sized lined pads, and you are retaining the original, but have furnished me with a photostatic copy of it.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have marked that document for identification with this deposition as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of David L. Johnston,” and I have signed my name. That’s on the left margin of the first page, and I have placed my initials in the right lower corner of the second, third, and fourth pages. I notice that on the third page in the middle, there is a reproduction of a Carousel Club card and I state for the record that I have examined the original card which is attached to the third page loosely, and that the picture on the photostatic copy is identical, except that it doesn’t show the color, the vertical lines being in sort of an orange color.

Mr. JOHNSTON. This is the card that was handed to me also, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, as I understand it--that was the card that was handed to you by Jack Ruby, and you have testified about that a little while ago. You also handed me a photostatic copy of another document which I have marked for identification; “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of David L. Johnston,” and I have placed my name under that on the left margin and on the second page in the lower right-hand corner I have placed my initials. I see that this is a photostatic copy, because I am examining it with the original, the original being on yellow legal-sized lined paper, and I compare them and state for the record that the photostatic copy which I have marked for identification is identical With the original which I now return to you.

Now, you stated that Exhibit No. 2 is a list of the people you know who had something to do with the examination in causes F-153, 154, and 155, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That’s correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you obtain this information?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Part of these I took at the actual time, which was on November 22 and November 23. Some of them I had to obtain from the reports.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the names?

Mr. JOHNSTON. The names of the officers; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any statements from these people?

Mr. JOHNSTON. From the officers--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You just made up a list of people?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; now some of these officers, of course, I have talked with in regard to this at the time the investigation was being made.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this part of your function as a justice of the peace, to do this?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are official records, I take it?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you say you talked to Ruby altogether on this occasion on the 22d?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Three to five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After that you didn’t see him any more?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; of course, I left the Dallas Police Department to go to my residence somewhere between 4 and 5 a.m. on the morning of November 23 and did not return to the Dallas police station at any subsequent period from then until the following Tuesday or Wednesday before I returned. I was called about an hour after the shooting of Oswald and put on standby notice, pending whether they could contact Judge Pierce McBride, justice of the peace, precinct 1, place 2 of Dallas County or Judge Davis, precinct 1, place 1. This man was in custody at the time he was shot, and under our rules of criminal procedure in the State of Texas, a prisoner dying while in custody--you are supposed to first try to contact the justice of the peace in whose precinct that particular death occurs. This is because he was incarcerated or in custody, and they subsequently did contact Judge McBride, who handled the inquest on Lee Harvey Oswald. I was on standby notice to handle this, but in this particular instance, they did get hold of Judge McBride.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the press interview of Oswald in the assembly room at which you were present came to an end because the press seemed to be violating the condition which Chief Curry had laid down for the interview?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir. Not drastically, but there was enough movement--my sincere feeling in this thing is that Chief Curry did everything that was humanly possible to do to protect Oswald, that his statement to the press before Oswald was brought in--to “get in position, stay there, do not move, do not try to stand up, when you do I’m going to remove him,” and as soon as this started--the milling got a little bit too much--I mean--he didn’t call their hand--there were a bunch of them kneeling and that’s a pretty uncomfortable position and he held some of them there for a pretty good while before they brought Oswald in, but when they started moving and attempting to stand up, which I think was just merely to stretch their legs and so forth, he took Mr. Oswald immediately out of that detail room.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether any security precautions were observed in searching or “frisking” as the phrase is, the people who were allowed in the assembly room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; to my knowledge there was none of that went on. However, there were at least--in that room, there were at least 50 or 60 officers.

Mr. HUBERT. And how many newspapermen?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Federal agents, local police officers, possibly one or two deputy sheriffs, the district attorney, two of his assistants, there were two or three private attorneys--private practicing attorneys that were in that room, there were three or four of the police department stenographers that were in that room, and possibly other than the press there may have been one or two other citizens--couldn’t say for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. How many were present?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I wish I could answer that.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say that there must have been nearly a hundred people in that room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. There was every bit of a hundred people in that room.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the policemen armed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; all of the officers as far as I know, other than the plainclothesmen--the uniformed officers all had their sidearms on. I’m sure the majority of the detectives had their sidearms on.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first went in, was the room empty or were there people in the room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; because the sequence of this was that after Oswald was charged, Chief Curry, Captain Fritz, Henry Wade, and myself went to the door--Captain Fritz was the first to speak and he advised the press that we were going to move to the detail room or the assembly room, that Oswald had been charged with the murder of President Kennedy, and that they could go to the detail room in the basement, and that Chief Curry would then give them instructions, and then Chief Curry spoke to them and then Mr. Wade spoke to them, because there were several members of the press there that wanted a statement from Henry Wade before they moved away from that door. Then the hall was vacated, I would say, to the extent that there were only maybe 15 or 20 people left standing in that hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Everybody went downstairs?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Everyone went downstairs, and in order to let you know this, and I’m sure that others have stated this--it was almost a human impossibility to get down the hall to the homicide office. They finally had to bring uniformed officers in and stationed two uniformed officers at each door of the forgery bureau, the homicide bureau, the auto theft bureau, and the burglary and theft bureau so that people could be maneuvered down there to get in and out of these offices for other routine business. That’s how packed it was with newspaper people in that hall.

Mr. HUBERT. There were television cameras there too?

Mr. JOHNSTON. They had two live television cameras set up there, they had one of these portable tape deals with a sound system on it and everything, right in front of the door.

Mr. HUBERT. So what happened is that after it was announced that there would be this interview granted, they all went down to the room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. They went downstairs to the room, and when I arrived there, I would say about 11:35 or 11:40, somewhere right along in there, the room was nearly full at that time with newspaper media.

Mr. HUBERT. So you don’t know whether they observed any security precautions in checking people?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; they did not check me when I went through the door.

Mr. HUBERT. But you went in with Curry?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You went in alone?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; I went in alone.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no one at the door checking?

Mr. JOHNSTON. There was some uniformed officers there. Now, I’ll say this in all fairness to them--maybe some of them knew me, I don’t remember, because I can’t recall the officers names that were out there.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no identification on you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir. Of course, I’ve been an officer here a long time and also 6 years as justice of the peace.

Mr. HUBERT. You were a police officer prior to that time?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Nine and a half years as deputy sheriff of Dallas County.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what pressures, if any were exerted by the press on Chief Curry to grant this interview? Did you hear them say anything or murmur or do anything at all?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; but as far as trying to tell you what any of them said verbatim--this was the main thing----

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean verbatim, I just want to see if I can get the atmosphere of it.

Mr. JOHNSTON. There were many remarks made. Each time any one of us would go out the door from the homicide bureau, “When are we going to see Oswald? When are you going to let us talk to him?” Yet, Oswald was taken in and out of that room some five or six times while I was there. He was taken to the restroom. He was taken to get a drink of water.

Mr. HUBERT. When that was done with him, did he have to pass through this crowded area?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; those newspaper people--he certainly did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any remarks to him or ask him questions?

Mr. JOHNSTON. They were asking questions--yes, sir; “Did you do it? Did they get the gun? Was that your gun?” Everything imaginable--that’s what your newspaper people were calling to him as he would go out of there. Every time I would leave to get a drink or get a cup of coffee or anything, it was the same thing. “What’s happened? Tell us what’s going on? Has he said anything? Has he admitted anything?”

Mr. HUBERT. Was there real pressure brought in the sense that the press was being denied any rights or that they thought that Chief Curry was curbing their rights as press people?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I think maybe to a degree some of the press might have thought they were being curbed, because they were not being allowed into the homicide office. It is a small office. It consists of an entrance office, the lieutenant’s office and the captain’s office, and an interrogation room, and a small office with a detective’s desk. There were some 25 or 30 officials that were in this office and it was pretty crowded. You couldn’t have let the press in. I think personally that pressures were put on Chief Curry by the news media.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Do you remember anything significant along that line?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I think the chief bent over backwards to them, giving them every opportunity he could within reason to allow them to get their stories and to get their pictures and to get their live television. They even moved a live camera down to the detail room or the assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it used there?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; it was in operation when I walked in that room.

Mr. HUBERT. It was televised?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir. Now, whether they taped it, whether it was live at that point--they had a live camera there set up.

Mr. HUBERT. In the room?

Mr. JOHNSTON. In the room--just inside the doorway of the assembly room, because you had to step over the cables to it to get into the assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear any such remarks like this one, “Well, we knew what Oswald looked like a few hours ago, but since he’s been in the hands of the Dallas police several hours, we don’t know what he looks like now.”

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or some side remarks like that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I saw Oswald the first time and I imagine it was around 6 o’clock, and I was in Captain Fritz’ office with him at this arraignment. I have now seen pictures--the first pictures that were made of him. I have seen him there and seeing him during that evening and early the next morning, I saw absolutely no change other than maybe a little tiredness--no physical change in his appearances.

Mr. HUBERT. I did not mean to infer at all, let me get that straight, that any force was used.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes; I understand. I know what you mean.

Mr. HUBERT. But--I was saying to you that we have some information that the press, in an effort to get an interview, started making such accusations?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I did not hear any of these.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir. I’ll say this again in all fairness to the officers that were involved in this thing, with knowing the seriousness of this incident, the international importance of it--that Chief Curry and his subordinate officers made every effort to allow Lee Harvey Oswald to be seen by the press--to see that the man was not being physically abused, that he wasn’t being tortured in any way. I saw none of it personally myself. That would have been out of the realm of reasonableness. He was spoken to in a normal, calm voice by the officers who spoke to him, and I just can’t see it any other way except that Chief Curry tried every way he could, with the national and international importance of this thing, to allow the press to make its coverage of it.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw any indication of maltreatment of Oswald at all?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir; none whatsoever in the period of some 7 or 8 hours that I was connected with it.

Mr. HUBERT. Oswald made no such accusations in your presence?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir. As I say, the only thing he said was when he was brought in for the arraignment on President Kennedy, and he says to me, “Is this the trial?” I said, “No, sir; I have to arraign you again on another offense.” And, there was some seven or eight officer witnesses to that arraignment and an assistant district attorney, and that assistant district attorney at that time was Mr. Maurice Harrell [spelling] H-a-r-r-e-l-l.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe that is all, sir. I’m obliged to ask you these questions to end it up: I don’t think that we have had any conversation that has been off the record?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor any conversation prior to the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that all that has passed between us has been recorded?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That is correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I hope that some of it might help shed a little light.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m sure it will. I’m sure they have copies of the affidavits?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; I’m sure they have. Those were turned over to the FBI, however, no one from the Commission has ever asked for those.

Mr. HUBERT. Could we make copies of those affidavits?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, I will mark the copies for identification. Mr. Johnston, you will furnish for me certified copies--you have shown me the originals of the affidavits, F-153, F-154 and F-155. We are going to have photostatic copies made of those. The originals will be returned to you, and when the photostatic copies are brought back to me, I will mark them for identification as follows, to wit: F-153 will be Exhibit No. 3 of the deposition of David L. Johnston, F-154 will be Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of David L. Johnston, and F-155 will be Exhibit No. 5 of the deposition of David L. Johnston, which will be marked by me for identification after you leave, but these will be photostatic copies of the originals which will remain in your possession.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I could do this--make copies now?

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s discuss this a little bit more before you leave--you think you can get the copies made and just bring them to the office here and hand them to me this afternoon?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir; and I will take these affidavits over to the company across the street myself and bring them back for you.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. That will be fine.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I’ll do that now.

TESTIMONY OF STANLEY M. KAUFMAN

The testimony of Stanley M. Kaufman was taken at 9 a.m., on June 27, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Stanley M. Kaufman.

Mr. Kaufman, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Kaufman, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associations and so forth.

I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to come, isn’t that correct?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. The rules of the Commission provide that every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, to commence from the date of the letter of request. It’s probable that the letter request was dated the 22d and therefore the 3 days have passed, and on the other hand, you may not have received it until later, and therefore I want to say to you that the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice in the event the 3-day notice has not actually been given, and so I ask you if you are willing to waive, in the event that technically the 3-day notice has not elapsed.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Hubert, I don’t know when the notice was received. I do know that I did talk to Mrs. Stroud of the U.S. attorney’s office, who helped rearrange the appointment which originally was scheduled at 1 o’clock. If there was not sufficient notice, we would certainly agree to waive it.

I would like to point out probably another error in your notice and that was in the name. It was addressed to Stanley F. Kaufman. The correct name is Stanley M. Kaufman, and as far as that notice is concerned with respect to the name being incorrect on the notice, we would likewise waive that.

Mr. HUBERT. What does the “M” stand for?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mike.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Stanley Mike Kaufman.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. KAUFMAN. 6831 Northport.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. KAUFMAN. An attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. You are admitted to the bar of the State of Texas?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I am admitted to the bar of the State of Texas; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been practicing law?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Actually, I graduated from SMU in 1942 and was admitted to practice law in 1942. I immediately went into the service and was discharged in October 1945, and have been in active practice since a little after October 1945, when I returned to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Kaufman, do you know Jack L. Ruby?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes; I am acquainted with Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Actually, Mr. Hubert, it has been difficult in my own mind to really go back, but I did go back into my files some time ago and I believe that the statement you have here that I knew him since 1954 is pretty accurate. It may be a few years difference either way.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Kaufman, on several occasions in the past you have been attorney or lawyer for Mr. Ruby, is that not so?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I have handled some matters for Mr. Ruby; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connection as an attorney for Mr. Ruby with reference to the homicide of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the course of this examination, Mr. Kaufman, it may be that some of the questions that I would ask would require answers which may invade or violate in some way the lawyer-client privilege which might exist between you and Mr. Ruby. I might not know that. On the other hand, I think you are in a position to know it. I want to state to you that it is not my purpose or the Commission’s purpose to cause you to violate or to jeopardize or compromise that lawyer-client relationship or privilege in the slightest way whatsoever. Therefore, I invite you to state to me at any time that you think the questions I ask require an answer that may violate or jeopardize or compromise that lawyer-client privilege. I assure you we will drop the matter immediately. Perhaps you wish to state your position on that problem now.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Thank you, Mr. Hubert. I would make this statement that you inquired about my contact with Jack Ruby regarding the homicide. I did not visit or see him prior to the trial of his case other than seeing him in the courtroom when I testified in the change of venue hearing and also on the date I testified as a defense witness.

I saw him on three occasions subsequent to that, all within a week. Other than that, I have had no immediate contact with Jack Ruby or discussed his case with him, and I give you this so that, not able to anticipate what you might ask, I can outline this to you and this would be the relationship--the only relationship that I have had with him since the date of this homicide.

I have had a number of contacts with him on civil matters and if any of these encroached upon the privilege, I personally believe that if Jack were asked, and if he is mentally able to, he would waive the privilege. Had we known that you wanted this done, we probably could have arranged it as time permitted. However, I don’t feel that there is anything that I could add or give the Commission that he would hesitate about or want me not to give, and I would like the record to reflect that even if we take advantage of the privilege at this time, that I would like the record to reflect that we would like at that time to present this matter to Ruby so that he could waive the privilege and that we could give you this information in the event we encroach upon the privilege at any time during the taking of the deposition.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me commence then by asking you this. I have previously handed to you and I think you have read, a document which I have marked for identification as follows: In the margin of the first page “Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Stanley Kaufman” and I have signed my name below that and on the second page, and the document consists of two pages only, I have marked my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

This document, Mr. Kaufman, purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Neeley and Rice on November 26, 1963. I think you have read it and I now hand it back to you and ask you if it’s correct or if you have any changes or modifications to make in that document.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Hubert, I would say that there are a number of inaccuracies in this report, probably not of a major concern.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, I wish you would point them out, identifying them, so that a person reading the record later can know what you’re talking about.

Mr. KAUFMAN. First, let me explain how the statement was taken. It’s not a statement as you correctly stated. It’s a report. Whether or not Neeley and Rice were the agents who talked to me, I wouldn’t know because I didn’t take their names down. I was called by the Dallas office of the FBI one evening and asked if they could make an appointment to see me regarding the Jack Ruby case and I advised them that they could and that I was available then and there, so they told me in about 15 minutes they would come over. Both of the agents came by my office at 1520 Mercantile Securities Building, identified themselves, and sat down and asked me a number of questions, most of which are, I would say, covered in the third paragraph here.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes; of Exhibit No. 1. Now, three of the--I mean--there were three basic concerns that they talked to me about. They didn’t just ask questions and write anything down. We just conversed similar to a conversation that you and I might have with a person in our office. Their main concern seemed to be (1) whether or not I knew Ruby, and (2) whether or not I knew him to be a Communist, and (3) whether or not I knew of any connection or relationship with Lee Oswald.

Thereafter, we had a lot of other discussions which are not reported here. Primarily, the concern that I had that was called to my attention by a lot of people who called me and seemed concerned that the name Rubenstein had been invoked in this case, and we probably spent a greater part of the discussion on the prejudices that had been invoked, rather than the things that are reported in the statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the agents more than once?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No; just once. As I say, the statement does not cover--this report does not cover all of that, and I think they’ve got some of the facts confused by virtue of our discussion, so I’ll go by this paragraph-by-paragraph, and when I say “this,” I’m talking about this exhibit which I am holding in my hand at this time and I think you identified it as Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. KAUFMAN. In the first paragraph the name is stated. It should be “Stanley M. Kaufman”. The rest of the paragraph is substantially correct.

In paragraph 2, reference is made that I was acquainted with Jack Ruby and was not familiar with his activities in Chicago, which is true. I knew nothing about his background and in fact I never knew that his name was Rubenstein. In the years that I knew him and in the years that I represented him, his name was Jack Ruby. Every legal instrument that I have in my file has always referred to Jack Ruby, and this is what disturbed me. In all the years that I knew Jack, I never knew his name was Rubenstein, not that he withheld it from me, but he was known in Dallas as Jack Rubenstein.

The conclusion that the agents have in their report that “he considered Ruby one of the most active Jewish bachelors in the synagogue” is something that I don’t know exactly what this meant, and I’ve put a question mark by the side of this line. I indicated and so indicate at this time that Jack Ruby was a bachelor to the best of my knowledge. Mention is made in the third paragraph about Alice Nichols----

Mr. HUBERT. Before you leave the synagogue, I wanted to ask you something more on that.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, I’ll come back to it. I just wanted to say that I did know that he and Alice were quite friendly and at times I think Jack had mentioned to me that he wished he could be worthy enough to marry Alice, but apparently he did not marry her. As far as his activities in the synagogue, the only time that I knew Jack Ruby was active in the synagogue, he did go for a period of time to recite memorial services for one of his deceased parents, which was commendable, because many people today don’t do those things. I mean, it’s a voluntary thing, but as far as other activities, I wouldn’t know what would be meant here. I have served on the board of my synagogue for over 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that Shearith Israel?

Mr. KAUFMAN. It is Rabbi Silverman’s synagogue. So, when this document says “active,” I wouldn’t know what they meant because frankly I don’t know the facts on which they base this conclusion.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you characterize his attendance or his relationship to the synagogue as “active” when you were interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Hubert, as far as the actual words used, I wouldn’t recall. I do say that he attended services more than usual during that period of time. As far as other activities are concerned, I don’t recall that he has been active. To that extent, though, that’s what disturbs me a little when they put this in their report.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you one of the officials--a member of the board of trustees of the synagogue?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I have been. I’m not at this time, but I have been. In other words, in our synagogue we have an autonomous group which is--actually, we are a nonprofit corporation. We have a president and other officers and we have a board of directors, and I have served on two occasions as a director 3 years each. You cannot succeed yourself as director, and I was also secretary for a year in between my term.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at is did you have occasion to observe whether Ruby was active in the normal sense of that word, with respect to religious activities?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Actually, that’s what disturbs me, Mr. Hubert. As far as I know, he’s never been on any committee, he’s never been an usher during the services--these things--so when you use the word “active”, he attended services.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he attend regularly--there is a regular service, isn’t there?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Oh, there are services every day and there are services on Friday and there are services this morning, and in fact, if I wanted to have been very technical, I could have advised you I didn’t want to testify today, that it was in violation of my Sabbath.

Now, whether I myself could be one who could tell you this would be unfair, because frankly, I can’t say that I’m in attendance every day, and as a result I believe there is only one person that I know who could give you such an opinion and that would be a person such as a rabbi, a person who is in daily attendance, and I personally am not in that category and therefore I would rather not pass on it.

Mr. HUBERT. There were services on Friday, November 22, the night of the President’s death, and I ask you if you were present at that service?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir; I was not present.

Mr. HUBERT. There were also services on Saturday morning, November 23, and I ask you if you were present at those services?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No; I wasn’t present then. I was supposed to go to Abilene, Tex., to take a deposition on that Saturday and I recall having to cancel my taking of the deposition because I felt so bad about the assassination, but I do recall that I had a plane reservation to leave Dallas at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you continue with your comments on Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. KAUFMAN. All right, getting down to paragraph (3). The statement in regard to trips by Ruby are substantially correct. The comment about a visit to Cuba to visit an acquaintance who works in a casino there--now, I don’t recall that I made any statement that the man worked in a casino. It was my recollection that I felt or thought that the man was supposed to be a gambler, and I think prior to the taking of the deposition, this morning, you and I commented about this when you gave me an opportunity to examine it, and I believe this man’s name was McWillie, if I’m not mistaken, but whether he worked at the casino or not, I don’t know. I didn’t know then and I don’t know now. I wouldn’t make the statement that he worked in the casino.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the only thing you would know about it would be what Ruby told you?

Mr. KAUFMAN. What Jack had told me, correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Hubert, I wouldn’t even try to guess. I don’t believe Castro was in office at that time. As I recall--of course--it might have been right at the time when the takeover took place. I would rather not even try to venture a guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware from any source, including Ruby, whether he took more than one trip to Cuba?

Mr. KAUFMAN. If he took more than one trip, I am not aware of it. Actually, I couldn’t even swear he took this one, except he told me he was going and I assumed he went, but he sent me no postcards, I got no souvenirs or anything that would actually put me in a position where I could tell you definitely he was in Cuba.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us why he would inform you that he was going to Cuba?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I think Jack liked me. I think we discussed a lot of things that were not lawyer-client conversation. I think that over the period of years we discussed many subjects from physical education--taking exercises, to his nightclub business, the changeover from one type of operation to another, and these matters in my opinion don’t relate to law, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. I was just wondering why he told you and I think you’ve given me the answer.

Mr. KAUFMAN. All right, continuing with paragraph (3)--the report is correct that I did not know and do not know, and never did know Lee Harvey Oswald. I have never heard Oswald’s name mentioned by Ruby and have no knowledge or information that Ruby ever knew Oswald.

This portion that “Kaufman stated he heard over TV Ruby had asked for three attorneys”--this is correct. My first acquaintance with the case, that my name was attached to the case was when Judge Pierce McBride was interviewed after talking with Ruby and he indicated that Ruby had asked for Fred Brunner, Tom Howard, and Stanley Kaufman, and at times I feel that knowing Jack like I did know him that the only reason he even did this is probably he thought he would offend me by not mentioning my name, but if you knew Jack, you would know he’s very sensitive and he’s very, very thoughtful, and I at times feel that that was his reason for mentioning my name.

Although, I must confess that if I could practice criminal law I wouldn’t hesitate to represent Jack, that I do feel that he respected my legal ability, and I’m not flattering myself or not trying to be modest, but I do feel that if I could have helped him, and I want the record certainly to reflect this, that had I felt capable, I certainly would not have hesitated to have been his lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. KAUFMAN. About the bank-account business--this is correct. I don’t recall Jack having any bank accounts. I didn’t make any big money off of Jack over the period of years. I did represent some ventures that might have been referred to me through him. I remember one of the girls that worked for him was involved in an automobile collision and he was kind enough to--when she needed an attorney--to recommend me, and I might have made money in that direction from different people, but as far as Jack himself, he just didn’t have, Mr. Hubert, that kind of legal business.

We had some problems with some bands and we did go to court on one or two occasions. I think at one time we tried a case in the presence of the present U.S. district judge here for the Northern District of Texas, Judge Sarah T. Hughes, down at the State court. We had an injunctive matter before her.

We do have or did have at the time this was pending, a case in which we filed an answer in a case which he had been involved in, and I did offer my files to the FBI, and they were in my office, which they didn’t want.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you incorporate the S&R Corp.?

Mr. KAUFMAN. The S&R Corp.--I believe I handled the incorporation on that, but Jack Ruby, to the best of my recollection there was someone who opened a club up there at the same location where Jack was and Jack was not involved, to the best of my recollection, and S&R was supposed to have been a management company or something of that type, and I don’t believe that Jack had any financial interest in the S&R Corp. Now, I believe I was asked about this and I don’t know whether the FBI asked me about it or not, but I’m sure I had been asked about it.

I know Jack’s name was not involved as an incorporator, and I don’t believe he was ever an officer. He may have been an officer, but as far as owning any stock in the S&R, I am very, very doubtful about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did own the stock in S&R initially?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I would rather not guess. Frankly, if I had the papers before me--if I have the papers. Now, there were some of his papers, and when I say “his papers,” I have all of my file, I believe, but as far as these corporations were concerned, I don’t remember whether the bookkeeper had this or whether the bookkeeper had custody of some of these matters, but as far as Jack Ruby’s having a financial interest in S&R, I would say to the best of my recollection Jack Ruby did not and does not have such an interest.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether it was a part of your function as attorney handling the incorporation to supervise the issuance of stock certificates?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I can’t even tell you if we ever issued stock certificates in the corporation. Ofttimes, Mr. Hubert, a person will come to the office, and we form many, many corporations and we have even served as dummy incorporators in these incorporation matters and I’m sure you likewise have. I don’t believe there were dummy incorporators on this incorporation, as I recall, but that the actual owners of the stock had signed the application for a charter, but ofttimes instructions are never forthcoming as to whom the stock would go to. Now, if we did have such instructions, I’m sure that the stock was issued. I’m inclined to recall and believe that Earl Ruby at one time might have been a stockholder. This is a brother of Jack’s, and whether Ralph Paul was one of the stockholders or not, I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the records would reflect that.

Mr. KAUFMAN. The records would reflect that and I’m sure there should have been franchise taxes which were filed which would likewise show who the officers and directors were.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; would you continue?

Mr. KAUFMAN. All right, going back here to this third paragraph--I don’t think it’s fair to report, “He states he knows only two persons who might be able to furnish pertinent information.” I think the question that was asked me was who would know the most about Jack and I told them that I thought that Ralph Paul was probably the closest friend that Jack Ruby had and that I thought Ralph Paul would be probably the best informant that they could get, and further, that Alice Nichols, who was secretary for a very fine lawyer who used to be associated with my father-in-law, Bob Dillard. They shared offices in the old Southland Building and Bob is general counsel for Southland Life, and Alice was his secretary, and Jack and Alice had gone together for many, many years and it was my feeling--it’s not a question of the only people, it’s a question of who were best qualified to furnish them some information and I did say that I thought Jack’s acquaintance with Ralph Paul and with Alice would qualify them more than anyone I knew to give them any information. Now, in regards to this next paragraph relating to Jack calling me at home.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 23d day of November?

Mr. KAUFMAN. The 23d of November, the day after the assassination of the President. I don’t think this correctly reflects what took place, and I would like to modify it to this extent.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Jack called me at home and I’m pretty sure that the hour was somewhere between 3:45 and 4 o’clock and as I recall, I gave this information to the agents, and the reason I’m sure about the time----

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in the afternoon?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes, sir; and the reason I’m so sure about the time, I was sleeping and I was awakened, and we do have a clock on our nightstand and I recall Jack calling and he was very upset, and the nature of our conversation was in regard to this Bernard Weissman or Wiseman and the ad that he had run in the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. What manifestations of his being upset did you observe?

Mr. KAUFMAN. It wasn’t observing, I was talking to him on the phone and you could just tell the way he was talking and the manner in which he was rambling on that this man was just real--really concerned about this business.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, about the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Oh, definitely. He told me how he went down to the post office and sat in front of this man’s box and watched, trying to find out who he was if he came to get his mail.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when he had done that?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I didn’t ask him. In other words, apparently it had taken place from the time he called me back to the time the President was assassinated--it had to be within 24 hours, I would assume.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how long he had stayed watching to see who would come?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No; he just told me that he thought it was terrible that this man had run this ad, and when I say “this,” I’m not quoting him verbatim, I’m sure, but this was his sentiment. He was just upset about it and he wanted to know how he could locate him. This was the reason he called. He wanted to know if I could help him--give him some information where he could find Bernard Weissman. He felt, I guess, as an attorney that I had some power of investigation or ability or know-how, and frankly, I told him the best I could recommend was that he go over to the city library and look at the city directory, that I had no knowledge of where he could be located.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you what he wanted to do if he did locate Weissman?

Mr. KAUFMAN. He didn’t say what he wanted to do. I think the nature of his discussion was that he was trying to be helpful to either the FBI or the police in locating him. I mean, as far as his talking about he was going to go out and bodily harm him or beat him up or something like that, there was no indication in this conversation that that’s what his intent or motives were.

Mr. HUBERT. You gathered rather that he was trying to be helpful to the police authorities?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes; and I felt that he felt maybe they were overlooking this and that maybe this fellow--at that time, as I would feel, he was trying to see if Weissman had anything to do with the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words in his own mind, as you gathered it, he did associate the Weissman ad with the assassination?

Mr. KAUFMAN. There’s no question about that. Now, this is correctly pointed out in the report. He made special emphasis about this black border. Frankly, I went back, after talking to him and looked at it and it didn’t really mean that much to me when I first looked at it. I mean--I was upset about it--about the ad. Frankly, I talked to a number of people about the ad and a number of people talked to me. I happened to talk to the Jewish Welfare Federation that very day that the President was killed in the afternoon, and the secretary I talked to asked me if I had any idea who Bernard Weissman was. It so happens that I have been active in the community, in the Jewish community as well as the non-Jewish community and we were having some discussions back and forth at that time on a matter that had nothing to do with this, and in our conversations, and this was before the assassination of the President. It was that morning before the President even arrived, that we were queried by one of the secretaries over at the Federation as to who in the heck was Bernard Weissman. So, it was not unusual that we would talk about this subject because there were a lot of people that were concerned about it, but Jack was particularly impressed with the border as being a tipoff of some sort--that this man knew that the President was going to be assassinated and that probably in the advertising field, perhaps in Jack’s knowledge of the entertainment world, and knowing something about setting up advertising, this had impressed him.

Mr. HUBERT. That black border?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That--when he saw that black border, this was a key. Now in the conversation Jack had gone through, and he rambled on maybe for, oh goodness, 10 or 15 minutes, talking about how he had closed up his clubs and how some of his competitors didn’t do so and how this provoked him and how the Dallas News--he gave them hell about running this ad. I mean--don’t think that this brief statement of summary that is reported by the agents by any means covers the entire conversation, because Jack just--well he just was upset. It was just the most upsetting thing that I’ve ever heard with him and in all my conversation, this seems to have really stirred him up.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the Weissman ad?

Mr. KAUFMAN. This Weissman deal.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comments about Oswald during this conversation?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Jack?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No. All that this conversation was directed to was at Bernard Weissman, and the closing up of his club and the refusal of his competitors to close up, and the attitude of the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he associate Oswald in anyway with any kind of a group, be it leftist, rightist, middle, or any kind of “ism”?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Jack had never mentioned the name Oswald at that time, and I’ll say this, without in any way I think violating any client or attorney relationship, the three times that I saw Jack he never mentioned the name Oswald. He referred to him but never referred to him by name. He called him “the deceased” when I talked to him in his cell. I say “cell,” but I’ve never been in his cell. I saw him in a little visitation or conference room, but he didn’t even mention him by “deceased” when I talked to him. I mean, of course, he wasn’t deceased at that time--when we talked on the phone--the name “Oswald” was never used by Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to think that the Weissman ad and its possible relationship to the assassination would hurt the Jewish community or the Jewish people?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir. No; this wasn’t even discussed. There was no mention even of whether this Weissman may or may not have been Jewish. We didn’t even discuss this. Actually, the Jewish subject did not come up at any time in our conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. In any aspect?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he was concerned about the death of the President, because of the effect it might have on business in general in Dallas and in particular with reference to his operations?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No; this wasn’t discussed. Incidentally, I forgot one thing that he did also point out and that was that he had taken some pictures of this sign “Impeach Earl Warren.” He also mentioned that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what he proposed to do with those pictures?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No; he did not say. He just asked me if I had seen the sign. I drive by that place every day and never noticed it, but he had asked me whether I had seen the sign and told me he had taken some pictures but did not indicate what he was going to do with them.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; will you go on then?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Now, as far as the rest--“Kaufman stated that Ruby wanted to know who Weissman was and how he could get in touch with him”--as I say, he did want to know the means or methods of how a person could locate him. As I say, I did indicate that he might consider looking at the city directory.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Now, they go on, “and if Mr. Freedman of the Anti-Defamation League could furnish him any information as to the whereabouts of Bernard Weissman.” Now, this is, I think, an inaccurate statement. Now, during the course of our conversation with the agents, we told them----

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we,” who is that?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Me--I should say--I told them that I had been active with B’nai B’rith and that one of our children, so to speak, is the Anti-Defamation League, and that I had been called, when my name was mentioned, by people all over the country who knew me--I had calls from Peoria, Ill. and from New York--regarding the Rubenstein being invoked into this and whether it was a matter of antisemitism. I had been called by Mr. Ted Freedman of the Houston, Tex., Anti-Defamation League, who came to see me to see whether or not antisemitism had been invoked into this and whether I personally felt that the name Rubenstein had been injected here for prejudicial purposes, and I think that someone is confused in the reporting of this.

I don’t even recall Jack and I talking about the Anti-Defamation League. I know that Jack was not a member of B’nai B’rith, not that he didn’t want to be or not that they wouldn’t have had him, I don’t think he had the money to join. I’m sure he would have liked to have belonged to a lot of things that he was not able to afford, and it’s not that expensive an operation, but notwithstanding that, I think that there is some confusion in this report as to conversations going on between Jack and myself. Actually, when I was on the witness stand, Mr. Alexander interrogated me about this very point and I just couldn’t imagine what the report said and he had the report in his hand, and he asked me whether or not Jack didn’t want to know or ask me how to get in touch with the Anti-Defamation League. I don’t remember the exact question, but this is not correct.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that you don’t recall that you spoke to Jack about that?

Mr. KAUFMAN. About the Anti-Defamation League, although I do say I talked to the agents about it, but not in connection with a conversation with Jack. I do admit that the agents and I, in talking about that, they were very kind and they stayed there and they related to me how they had Jewish agents in the FBI, Bob Strauss of Dallas had been an agent, and I mean that they spent a lot of time discussing this matter with me, and I’m sure they had a lot of things on their mind, Mr. Hubert, and they were not sitting down taking notes although I think they did take names down maybe on the back of an envelope or a scratch pad, but I mean, they didn’t sit down such as the reporter is doing here this morning and take notes of the things that we were saying. In other words, I don’t believe that it’s that significant, but I do want the record to be correct, because I don’t think that Jack Ruby and I ever discussed the Anti-Defamation League. That’s the point I’m trying to make.

Now--“He stated Ruby had also told him he had tried to locate this Weissman through the Post Office Department”--that’s correct--“but was not able to do so.” Now, I think I’ve elaborated on what he did attempt to do, but whether he had conversations with the Post Office and I don’t know, but he did tell me that he did locate the box and that he did put it under surveillance, so to speak, and told me that he saw lots of mail in the box and that the box was loaded with mail.

Now--“Kaufman stated that Ruby told him he had been to the Dallas Morning News and had raised ‘hell’ with the ad department for accepting such an ad.” I would say that’s correct, and he went into great details about this.

“Kaufman stated that from his contacts with Ruby and the civil matters he had handled for him that he is aware that Ruby is quick-tempered,” and that is correct, “and that in his opinion Ruby had no assistance or guidance in connection with the shooting of Oswald.” I would say that is a correct statement.

I will say Jack not only is quick-tempered, and I tried to explain to these people, and that’s the two agents, that Jack was this type of person--he would do things and then come ask you for advice, and I related to them and showed them, Mr. Hubert, that he had been in my office maybe a few days before all this with a little twistboard that he had seen for sale, and he was going to take this twistboard and have the Goodwill Industries make it so they would have a good deal, and they were going to go out and sell twistboards. I mean, he just thought this was a tremendous thing, and I got the twistboard out and showed it to the agents. I still had it in my office at that time. I’ve given it away since that time. Somebody wanted a twistboard so I let them have it. Now, he had copied, practically without exception, the instructions that someone else had on their twistboard. He had already gone to the expense of having it printed and here he was coming to me to say, “Was this all right?” Now, this is the type of a boy Jack Ruby was. He would do things on impulse and then he would come back and say, like a child, “Daddy, did I do right or did I do wrong?” This is the matter that I tried to convey to them, that he is not only quick-tempered, but his mentality--Jack is a smart boy, but Jack a lot of times would want you to give him assurance that he was doing right, and I’ll say this--the more I think about his telephone call to me, I think that maybe he would like to say, “Well, Stanley, am I doing right?” I mean--this is the way I would interpret it--“Pat me on the back and tell me I’m doing something to help,” and unless a person knew him and had talked to him and had been associated with him, you would have to have that relationship before you could have this feeling.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him or see him after this conversation and until the homicide?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The conversation lasted, you say, about 15 or 20 minutes?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I would say it was extensive--it was longer than usually people talk on the telephone. I’m sure you as a lawyer know that there are times when you get bored listening to people on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Louis McWillie at all?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Never--I just knew him by reputation. Actually, I don’t know him by reputation. If I saw the man--I mean--I would never know him. I wouldn’t know what he looked like.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you got the name “McWillie” from Ruby really, when he told you about him?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you’ve covered some of this and it may be repetitious, but I think you are in a good position to tell us, if you will, what do you know about Jack’s thoughts or attitudes towards the various “isms” that exist in the world today, “rightism,” “leftism,” and so forth?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Hubert, to be very honest with you and to be very candid with you, I have never discussed it with Jack, so it would be presumptuous again on my part to express opinions as to any political philosophies, as far as any philosophies or doctrines he might have toward any “isms.” I certainly would classify him--I think this--I think I am certainly in a situation, having served in the Armed Forces and having served in China and having been active in my community supporting them financially as well as with works, I would certainly classify Jack as to what I knew about him as a loyal American.

Mr. HUBERT. From what you knew of him as a person, would he be the type of person that would be interested in international politics or international ideological philosophies and so forth?

Mr. KAUFMAN. If he was, I had never discussed it with him. Actually, as I explained to you, I’m sure that many of us even in the course of legal conversation will digress somewhat and talk about sports or talk about women or talk about a multitude of subjects. To the best of my recollection I never had talked politics with Jack. I had never talked anything that would give me any background where I can express an opinion on that subject.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you express your opinion as to what his desires and ambitions in life were?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, that covers a multitude of sins. I can say that in the field of his business venture, I really think that Jack would liked to have been a success in the field of entertainment. He had tried many, many ribbons, and when I say “ribbons,” I mean they’ve changed methods of operations.

I didn’t know Jack when he was in some other nightclub businesses. I think he was being represented by some other attorneys. In fact, before coming here this morning I tried to just recollect how I first met Jack, and the best I could recall, I had talked to him a few times in the lobby of the Mercantile Bank and who had introduced Jack to me, I was trying to find out that, and I recall that he at that time used to wear a short-sleeved sport shirt and a pair of trousers and a bunch of keys on the back of his hip, and reminiscing how he had improved his dress and all through that period of time, that Jack when he would come to my office I would say generally would be dressed and attired well. He would have on a tie and a suit, and I think he wanted to elevate himself where he would be a success financially. I think honestly he would have married Alice Nichols. For example, when we discussed this, he didn’t think he was worthy of her, being a nightclub operator and she a very fine legal secretary for a very fine attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you detect any sensitivity toward his background?

Mr. KAUFMAN. We never talked about his background. Not that he would avoid it--naturally, there would be a time or occasion that certain events would come up and he might say, “Well, it was pretty rough in Chicago.” Jack had a finger off--I don’t know if you have seen Jack, but he did tell me once that someone bit it off in a fight he had with him. Now, whether that was in Dallas or Chicago, I don’t even know, and whether that was true or not, I don’t know.

I was at the Worth Food Market, they have a kosher delicatessen up there and I was checking out--I’d been up there buying some stuff and I was up at the counter checking out and a little boy had his little portable radio and all of a sudden I heard this kind of a report, as I recall, “They are bringing Oswald down,” and the next thing is this boom, and as I recall the news reporter said, “My goodness, one of these trigger-happy detectives has shot Oswald” and they wouldn’t identify who it was, and then they straightened it up and they said, “No, it wasn’t a detective” but they wouldn’t identify him, but then I get in the car and turn on the radio in the car and all of a sudden they say it was Jack Ruby who was the person who had shot Lee Oswald, and I liked to have died. I was going home, and my wife had heard it, and she couldn’t believe it. She just talked about “what went wrong with that crazy Jack?” She said, “He just must have been nuts,” but it just was the most shocking thing I ever heard in my life when I heard on the radio that Jack Ruby had gone to the police station and shot Lee Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone contact you to represent him? I think it was mentioned that he said that you would be one of his three lawyers?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I think he said he wanted any of these three--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He never contacted you about it?

Mr. KAUFMAN. He personally?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. KAUFMAN. He didn’t call me, but I had a call right after that from some lady saying she was calling for his sister, and at that time Oswald was still living, and they called me and they said “We know you don’t handle these matters and maybe you could refer someone to us?”

Mr. HUBERT. Did she identify herself?

Mr. KAUFMAN. At the time she did, but I gave no significance to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who it was?

Mr. KAUFMAN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But she represented to you that she was calling on behalf of Eva Grant?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That’s correct, and at that time I recommended Fred Brunner, not that I recommended him on just this case, but we have had other clients who have had problems. In fact, I have recommended one to Fred within the last 2 or 3 weeks. I didn’t call him. I said, “To me, I think Fred Brunner is a very able lawyer who could probably help them,” and the next thing I get a call from Sam Daugherty who is in Fred Brunner’s office and Sam says that the lady had called and that Fred was out on his farm and said for me to call back and tell them that Sam Daugherty was going to help them. Well, I tried to call back but their phone was so busy I never was able to get back in touch with them, but I was informed that Sam Daugherty and Fred Brunner went down, but there was so much confusion down at the police station that they left and that they went over to that office across the street where Colley Sullivan has his office and watched it on TV. They figured--“we can’t find out anything going on over here, but we can through this news.” Now, we’ve talked about it since that time, in fact, I talked to Mr. Brunner when I got my subpena. I asked him if he wanted to come over and relate any of this to me, and I’m sure if anybody wanted to talk to him, Brunner would be happy to relate what the situation was, but all the lawyers were trying to get in on the act, that he just felt, “Boy, this thing is so confusing, I’m taking off” and he apologized to me about it, Mr. Hubert. He, as I say, is a very fine attorney, and to him, he just didn’t know what was going on and neither did I nor did anyone else, and so I just dropped the thing.

Mr. HUBERT. You never were contacted by anybody further as a matter of fact?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, Tom Howard, I think, talked to me several times about this Rubenstein deal. I would call Tom Howard and say, “The Jewish community is in an uproar about this, I had a call from so-and-so,” and this was true--this is true. In fact, I had a call from Julius Schepps and some of the most responsible and influential people we do have in Dallas too, and they said to me, “I hope you are not going to get involved in this case,” and to Julius I remember I said, “Well, Julius, you know--” he heard my name mentioned, and I said, “Julius, if I were able to represent the man I would” and I told him how I felt, and in my conversation about it he indicated that the whole country was concerned about it. So, I would keep on to Tom Howard about this--I said, “Man, this is just wrong that these people here in Dallas feel that someone is trying to just incite a bunch of prejudice into this and that’s not right.” I told him that Jack Ruby should be tried as Jack Ruby and not anything else. So, I would get in touch with Tom and did on many occasions, and I’ll say to you this quite frankly, that I talked with Tom and when they cited him to go before the Grievance Committee, that I would personally appear voluntarily to tell them that there had been a great deal of pressure put on about this Rubenstein deal and I so advised the FBI at the time and told them that I had been bothered, molested, called and so on about the Rubenstein part, and that people didn’t like it and they didn’t know why it was injected into it, and that Chief Curry apparently had started it when they made this announcement on TV when he told them that his name was Rubenstein, alias Jack Ruby, and that this was not a reflection on Henry Wade and it was not a reflection on anybody that I knew, except somewhere along the line someone had either in error or either intentionally started this business about Jack Rubenstein.

Now, the reason I say this--later, if you recall, there were a number of TV stories on a Jack Rubenstein who is supposed to have been, and these are things that I didn’t even know about but I read about it in the paper, and heard it on TV that he was supposed to have been a questionable character that had been cited by the House Un-American Activities Committee, and Tom Howard even indicated to me that he had gone to the trouble of going to the public library and looking it up or had someone do it, of checking all the Jack Rubensteins in all the major cities, that there were many, many Jack Rubensteins, and where they got this business he didn’t know and why they were trying to do this, he didn’t know.

Yes, sir; I was contacted and contacted by others and I will say this: Mr. Ted Freedman from the southwestern regional office of ADL came up to Dallas and he was in my home and he wanted to know whether or not I felt that the antisemitism had been injected into this case and I told Ted that as far as I knew it had not been, that this was not intentional, that it was an accident perhaps, and in talking with Tom Howard, he had talked to some of the major newspaper writers who were in Dallas at the time and some of the major magazines that had been here at the time, and they felt likewise that there was no antisemitism that had been purposely injected into the matter, but the damage was already done, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. KAUFMAN. If there was any damage, it was already done, and there was no way of erasing it, and believe me, this was a great concern of many, and I could go on and on and on and tell you the concern that many had for it.

Mr. HUBERT. I have one final matter I would like to ask you about. I have been advised that you represented an individual who happened to be in jail on the day the President was shot and had a view through the window?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes; this was an interesting development, Mr. Hubert. As I told you before we took the deposition, I represent a number of insurance companies and when I say a number, I maybe have three or four that we do defense work for, and when I talked to Mrs. Stroud of the U.S. attorney’s office, I told her that----

Mr. HUBERT. That was just a couple of days ago?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes, sir; when I received the notice from the Committee. I had a case styled Lowe versus Mitchell that was in the 44th Judicial District Court and I was representing this, as I say, on behalf of an insurance company, and this boy, Willie Mitchell, a colored boy who we incidentally had a great deal of trouble getting into a defendant’s case. He felt that he had already served his term in jail and that he didn’t owe any debt to society moneywise or otherwise, and there was a serious question of whether we were going to continue to defend him or whether or not he had any coverage, but notwithstanding that, we did settle his case, and I did get him to come by the office one day for an interview, and in the course of my conversation he let me know that he was in the jail serving a DWI offense at the time the President was killed, and I sat back and forgot about the automobile accident and just let him talk, and he related how all of these prisoners up in jail had been advised by the jailers and that they had read in the newspapers that the President was coming to town, and they looked in the papers and they saw the route, how the President was coming to town, and the jailers told them where and that they were coming and they congregated at this window--I mean--this side of the jail. Apparently they had a good view of what took place, and he described to me exactly, and when I say “exactly,” he didn’t see anyone in that window, but I did tell Mrs. Stroud that I thought it might be helpful to the Commission to know that there were people in jail who saw the actual killing.

He described the President as having been hit from the rear and he said there was no question in his mind that the bullet came from the window. He said when the President’s head was hit, it was just like throwing a bucket of water at him--that’s the way it burst. He said it made him sick and everybody else sick up there.

I felt that Mrs. Stroud should know this and would want the Commission to know it for the reason that there seems to have been some question as to what I’ve read in the newspaper as to whether or not there was more than one bullet and whether or not the bullet came from the back or came from the front.

I was a small-arms instructor myself over in China, having been trained in the infantry school in Fort Benning, and I certainly feel I would love to, if I could, volunteer anything that would be helpful to the Commission, and if that information were helpful, I will be glad to get Willie Mitchell’s address and furnish it to you.

Actually, I don’t know who else was in jail. I do know that Willie Mitchell was, and I had even suggested that he get in touch with the Warren Commission, but he just has as many people have this “I don’t want to get involved” attitude. I mean, he felt that he had already been too much involved with that DWI and didn’t want to get involved with anything else.

Mr. HUBERT. Does Mitchell live in Dallas?

Mr. KAUFMAN. He’s a construction worker and lives in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to do this, would you address a note to Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the Commission?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I have his address on the letter of transmittal.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you advise him that in the course of this deposition the question of Willie Mitchell came up and that I asked you to furnish the address that you have for him?

Mr. KAUFMAN. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you are doing it at my request?

Mr. KAUFMAN. I will be happy to, and incidentally, I did mention this to Sheriff Decker. This is no surprise, and I did tell Sheriff Decker--because I had asked Willie Mitchell how many people had talked to him about this, whether or not anyone had come up to the jail to discuss this with any of the prisoners, and he did indicate that there were some people but he thought they were probably just people from the jail office rather than anyone else.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell Sheriff Decker about it?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Right after I found out about it.

Mr. HUBERT. And when was that?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, the case was settled, I guess, about 5 or 6 or 7 weeks ago. It’s been within the last 2 or 2½ months, maybe. I believe I was down there one Saturday afternoon and was talking to him about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything else you wish to say, Mr. Kaufman?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, that’s very kind of you to turn the record loose to me here where I could go ahead and make any statements. I would like to say this, Mr. Hubert, that frankly I certainly would give any additional information that you would want to know now or at any time, whether by interrogatories by letter, and I assure you that you have my utmost full cooperation. I know what the function of the Commission is--I have read it. I know that it’s a difficult task that you have and whether you can ever come up with the conclusions that the American people want, I don’t know. I certainly feel that many people won’t believe the findings of the Commission, that they’ve already prejudged this thing. I think what you are attempting to do is a worthy project of the President, the Chief Justice, and all I’m sure they are doing is trying to get to the root of it.

I won’t go into my feelings about the trial of Jack because I know you know I am rather prejudiced about it. I do feel that a great injustice has been done. I wouldn’t tell a story for him, though, or tell a lie. I am here to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I think that Jack, notwithstanding what I read in the Dallas Morning News today, was acting on impulse. I think that he did something that many, many Americans--good red-blooded Americans would have done. I don’t justify it. I don’t condone it. I don’t say it is the right thing to do. I have had a number of calls where people thought he should have gotten a medal.

I think there is certain testimony that should have been brought out that wasn’t. I have questions about the defense of Jack Ruby as a lawyer. I have some feelings about statements that have been made about the oligarchy of Dallas. That’s why I say to you, when you asked me if there is anything else I could say, I could certainly lend a lot of thought that I’m sure would have no bearing on it, but the only reason I’m making this statement is that I do feel that it’s very difficult in reviewing depositions to get the same feeling you do when you look a person in the eyes; when you get to sit across from them you get to feel the warmth of a person, that notwithstanding the good work of a reporter, these things cannot be reflected in a written deposition, and in the Commission’s later reading this--I’m just trying to reflect a little of my personality so that they would know that I am not a vicious person and I am not a person who has any malice towards anyone. I mean, I personally as a lawyer and trained as a lawyer, think that the facts should be brought out, and I think that the things that have motivated people in their testimony, whether it’s before the Commission or otherwise, certainly is worthwhile. I think there have been tremendous pressures put on people involved in this case, whether it’s me or anyone else. As I pointed out, the tremendous pressures that were put on me those first few days because my name was mentioned, is what I refer to. I think that there was tremendous pressure put on the lawyers who tried this case.

I think the Ruby family were not treated fairly in the opportunity of getting fair counsel. I think they had a very difficult time employing counsel locally. I think the fact that they had to go out of the State to get counsel is not because they wanted to go out of State. I think that they had many, many problems that I can’t discuss with you because perhaps the relationship of client-attorney is involved. I believe there are many people who have been involved as lawyers who have had tremendous pressure put on them. I think that even the district attorney’s office has been put under tremendous pressures, and this is an unfortunate situation, because if you believe in justice, if you believe in truth, if you believe in righteousness, you would say certainly that these things--you have to get these pressures taken off of you.

I have had many, many people tell me about the future of this appeal, that they feel that the pressures will have more to do with it than the law. I think this is wrong. I think that this case should be decided as a matter of law, not as a matter of prejudices or pressures, and I certainly think that the Commission should let the chips fall as they will, that they shouldn’t be subjected to pressures. I don’t think that those who are on it probably would be, but they are human beings and we all have human frailties. I think we can only take so much and I think this is what happened to Jack Ruby.

In closing, I would like to say this--that one of the things I have alluded to is this point about Jack not walking into a police station to make a sacrifice of himself with the money in his pocket. I think that the physical facts--you can see premeditation on a man like Lee Oswald, but the fact that he had a planned method in this whole thing. In my opinion he had a plan not only of accomplishing his mission but of a getaway.

You take a man such as Jack, as I see this situation and as I have found from information that has been told to me, not by Jack but from outsiders, Jack could never have known the plan of removing Lee Oswald from the jail, that it had to be something that just happened. These physical facts are there and I’m sure the Commission has them.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you’ve mentioned to me that it is your opinion that as you knew Jack Ruby, he would not walk into jail----

Mr. KAUFMAN. With several hundred dollars in his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. Intending to shoot somebody with the certainty of being caught?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That’s right. Knowing Jack Ruby as I did, knowing his financial situation, I feel that if the story that I read in the paper this morning was correct, that he considered himself a sacrifice, I just can’t believe this, because I would say that if he did do this, Mr. Hubert, I feel, knowing him, that Jack would have taken his money and left it with his sister or left it with his bartender or left it with someone, but I don’t believe Jack Ruby would have walked into the jail with his money, and leaving his dogs elsewhere, with the understanding he was going to make a sacrifice out of himself and be caught, because this does not demonstrate to me the actions of a sane person--to walk into a place with your money, with your dogs here, and without any plan of getting away or a plan of getting out of it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say that’s inconsistent of what your estimate of Jack Ruby as a human being was?

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You made reference to what you read in the paper this morning, and I take it you are referring to the front page story of the Dallas Morning News by Carl Fruend?

Mr. KAUFMAN. By Mr. Fruend.

Mr. HUBERT. Who writes a story concerning the interview of Jack Ruby with the Chief Justice, is that correct, that’s the story?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to identify it.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes, sir; in other words, the story you refer to is a story that purports to be a copyrighted story regarding the testimony of Jack Ruby before the Chief Justice and other members of the Commission or whoever was present, and in which the story relates that Jack said he went down there for a twofold purpose. One was to send a telegram and the “other”--referring to the elimination or assassination or the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I say that I believe that’s inconsistent with the man’s personality and with his actions--with the man that I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to the commencement of this deposition, we did have some conversation, and in order that the record can be clear on the point, as I now look back, we have covered in the deposition everything that we spoke about prior to the deposition, isn’t that correct?

Mr. KAUFMAN. That is correct, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there is nothing that has passed between us that has not been recorded.

Mr. KAUFMAN. There is nothing that has passed between us that has not been recorded, and I believe further that we had a further conversation prior to that in which you had indicated, just as you did in the deposition, that we could invoke our privilege, and I had indicated to you that if necessary I would go off the record and give you the information, and you further requested that I do not go off the record because there would have to be other explanations, and we have not gone off the record, that all of our conversations before and after have now been, I believe, correctly reported.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. You have been very helpful indeed.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, I hope so.

Mr. HUBERT. We are trying to get the picture of the man.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, that’s what I tried to give you and that is all I can do.

Mr. HUBERT. I might state to you, too, you know that we are far more interested in this man just from the newspaper standpoint. We are building this record so that in a hundred years from now, a person reading it can make sense of it.

Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, I wish that I were an artist, but I’m not that articulate, but you see, this is what’s wrong, and our good reporter knows that many times when we see these depositions, we say, “Do we sound that bad?” Sometimes a reporter will edit them, but they are not supposed to. I mean, they may make us sound a little better.

I will further say frankly, that the worst part of this is that it is impossible for the Commission when they read all this and try to digest it, to see the people and how they feel, and if they could see the people I think it would be so much more helpful to the Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I can understand that. And again, let me say how much we thank you for coming today.

Mr. KAUFMAN. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DANNY PATRICK McCURDY

The testimony of Danny Patrick McCurdy was taken at 4:15 p.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Danny Patrick McCurdy.

Mr. McCurdy, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963 and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular, as to you, Mr. McCurdy, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and associates and so forth on a certain date.

Now, I believe you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission asking you to be present.

Mr. MCCURDY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of the letter?

Mr. MCCURDY. I am not sure. I think it was the 22d, if I’m not mistaken, is when I got it. It was dated the 22d at the top of the letter.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you get it?

Mr. MCCURDY. About the 23d or 24th.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, under the rules adopted by the Commission every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition, dating from the date of the request, and it is probable therefore that the rules have been complied with, but in any case the rules do provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice, and I ask you whether you are willing to go ahead and testify now?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; I will go ahead and testify right now.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand up and take the oath, please, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MCCURDY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. McCurdy, I have heretofore, a little while ago, handed you a document consisting of two pages which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked the words “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Danny Patrick McCurdy” and on the second page I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner. This document purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agent Coleman Mabray on November 29, 1963. Have you read this, sir?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; sure have.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether this is a correct report of the interview?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, basically it is. There are two or three discrepancies at the end. I suppose they misunderstood me, but they’re not earth shattering or anything about the conversation that I had with Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to page 2?

Mr. MCCURDY. Right--it says, “McCurdy advised that he ended his conversation with Ruby and he entered the diskjockey room”. Now, our conversation took place in the diskjockey room, that is, our console room, and not the newsroom.

Now, Jack spent the majority of the time in the newsroom with our newsman, Glenn Duncan, the man that just left, and a man by the name of Russ “Knight” Moore, who is now at WXYZ at Detroit, Mich., and also a gentleman named Pappas that I mentioned--I can’t remember what his first name was, but anyway he’s a newsman with WNEW in New York City, but Jack’s conversation and my conversation took place by ourselves in the control room. Now, he was in the control room at the time. There is another discrepancy down here, and it says I had met Ruby one time before.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s in the fourth paragraph.

Mr. MCCURDY. Actually, I had been with him twice. I had been to his club twice, rather than just once--it’s once--right here, and in the same paragraph it says, “So far as I know Ruby is not a personal friend of anyone at the station.” This is not true. He was a friend of Russ Moore. Now, Russ didn’t really appreciate his friendship, but he was a friend of Russ and this clarifies the last paragraph where it says, “I have no idea how Ruby obtained the telephone number at the station.” He knew several of the diskjockeys, one who had left the radio station earlier named Chuck Dunnaway--Charles Dunnaway who is now in Beaumont. He knew him, so I could easily see how he got the telephone number of the unlisted phone number--either through Chuck or Russ, or possibly one of our newsmen, that he possibly knew.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this an incorrect report or is it that you did tell this to the FBI people and now your memory is clearer on it?

Mr. MCCURDY. I don’t exactly know. I can’t remember telling Mr. Mabray anything. Of course, it was such an informal conversation we had anyway, that these are actually I’m sure not earth shattering discrepancies, but Mr. Mabray was handwriting most of the stuff and some of the questions--I’m sure he wrote down answers that were understood rather than--since he wasn’t there, he couldn’t understand the setup of the control room. Now, we are in a new control room now over across the street, but at this particular time I suppose maybe my description of the control room--the difference between the control room and the newsroom possibly didn’t make it clear in Mr. Mabray’s mind as to the difference.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, with the exceptions that you have noted, the document which has been identified Exhibit No. 1 is substantially correct?

Mr. MCCURDY. Correct; entirely correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you talked to Ruby about 5 minutes after he arrived with the sandwiches; is that correct?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were alone with him, I believe, at that time, were you not?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the conversation?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, now first of all--Jack and I met in the newsroom. I went back with him to the newsroom and we had the sandwiches and everything and I grabbed a sandwich and started back to the control room and Jack walked part of the way back with me and he stopped in the hall.

Now, as far as our conversation was concerned--it was just--Jack mentioned how terrible it was about President Kennedy being assassinated and he said he felt like it was a good thing that we had changed our station format, which we had done. We had changed our news format and weren’t playing any rock and roll at the station, but were playing album music, soft listening music, and I don’t know whether I mentioned it or not--I can’t remember whether I mentioned it or not but he looked rather pale to me as he was talking to me and he kept looking at the floor. Well, I went on back to the control room and Jack went back to the newsroom and talked to the newsman, and then I would say 5 or 6 minutes later came back to the control room where I was by myself and he stood there and talked to me and basically told me what was on your paper right there. He told me once again--he rementioned how sorry he was that all this had happened and he gave me a little card that I think I still have, an advertisement for his club.

Mr. HUBERT. The Carousel Club?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; the Carousel Club, and we just sat around and talked in general and he mentioned that he was going to close his club down for the weekend--I can’t remember his exact words--I think it was more correct on this because it was closer to the time he said it and I gave it to the FBI man. He said, “I’m going to close my club down this weekend. I’d rather lose 12 or 15,000--” Oh, that’s a discrepancy--I think he said 12 or 1500 right there.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. MCCURDY. It should be 12 or 1500, and he said that.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s a discrepancy then in the second paragraph of page 2 of Exhibit No. 1 where it says “12 to 15,000” it should be “12 to 1500”?

Mr. MCCURDY. Right. He said, “I’d rather lose 12 or 1500 this weekend by closing down than I had not to be able to live with myself.” You can certainly imagine what a shock this was to me when he went out on Sunday and shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you a photostat of a card. Is that the Carousel Club’s card?

Mr. MCCURDY. As a matter of fact, I have one right here.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the one?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You are showing me one that you’re taking out of your wallet?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; and here’s another one Jack had given me earlier, a picture of one of the strippers on it.

Mr. HUBERT. These two cards are different from the one I’m showing you?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The one I’m showing you is a part of the exhibit one page 3, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of David L. Johnston. Was that the type of card he gave you?

Mr. MCCURDY. No; this is the one he gave me--right here. This one also, of course, is his. Now, this doesn’t have any advertising for Jack, but this is the background on one of his girls down there that he had. Also, I have no idea why he did it, but I have one of the bottles that Jack left up there and it was a very unusual brand of soda pop that I had taken to my apartment. I took it over to the apartment and just threw it in the ice box because it was one of them that was left over, and I had heard earlier that they found some cold drink bottles up in the window where Oswald was and I was going to say if there was any kind of connection as far as this type of cold drink was concerned, I would certainly be able to identify the other bottle, if it was like this one.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time when Ruby first called by telephone, I think you received the call, didn’t you?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes. Oh, my gosh, it would have to be after midnight and I’m sure it was before 1 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you pick those two times?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, it was my recollection that I had just come on the air. I went on at midnight at that time and Russ Knight, the Weird Beard, was still there, and he gets off at midnight, and he was sticking around the station and I placed the time that I got the call the first time, I would say, about 12:20.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there two calls or one?

Mr. MCCURDY. There was only one to my recollection that Jack made.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that on the hot line?

Mr. MCCURDY. No; it was on what we term the jock line. It’s in my paper there. The number has since been changed. It’s changed periodically.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you transfer him over to Glenn Duncan?

Mr. MCCURDY. No; I didn’t. As far as I know; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you give him the number, the hot line number?

Mr. MCCURDY. To my knowledge; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You were aware that he did subsequently call Glenn? And I think you introduced him to Glenn; didn’t you?

Mr. MCCURDY. As far as I know; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it was Mr. Moore?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, now, Russ was a closer friend to Jack than I was.

Mr. HUBERT. We have fixed then the time that he called and spoke to you--what was that conversation about?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, Jack said he had some sandwiches and some cold drinks that he would like to bring up to the station, that he knew we were working hard, and under a lot of strain, and he wanted to bring us some refreshment up, and so he brought some up. Oh, my gosh, corn beef on rye and we had some cold drinks--Dr. Black’s cold drink. The reason I remember this--they are surrounded with or had gold foil on them and he said you could only get them in New York and that they were the best cold drinks in the world, and they were in my estimation--the best cold drinks I’ve ever had, but as I said, I felt later I should have turned one of these bottles over to the FBI. I didn’t think about it until just here recently, about turning it over to the FBI.

Mr. HUBERT. Why was that?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, because it had been said they found some cold drink bottles where Oswald supposedly shot President Kennedy, and I was going to say--for Heaven’s sake, if they found the same kind as these cold drink bottles, I see no reason why they should, but if they did, it would certainly establish some kind of a link.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were unique kinds of bottles?

Mr. MCCURDY. They were--they certainly were.

Mr. HUBERT. Unique in shape or what?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, they were unique in shape.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the shape?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, it was more on the order of a small Pepsi Cola bottle but the label was what was different. It had gold foil wrapped around it up at the top. It was apparently a very expensive cold drink--I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. It was called Dr. Black?

Mr. MCCURDY. Dr. Black’s cold drinks.

Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that if the bottles found near the position where Oswald was supposed to be, were the same type of bottle, that would be significant, is that it?

Mr. MCCURDY. It certainly would; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That, of course, is noted and will be followed up. About how long afterward did Ruby actually appear at the station?

Mr. MCCURDY. Oh, I hate to say anything contradictory to what’s in the statement there, but I really can’t remember what I said. I just read over it a little bit ago, though.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you want to look it over again?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; let’s see. “I advised that some 15 or 20 minutes later I ran downstairs between a record”--I started to putting on a record apparently or some album record, one of our albums there and I ran downstairs and opened the front door and Jack was waiting there with sandwiches and drinks and he was waiting there and apparently had been waiting a few minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Russ Moore with him then at that time?

Mr. MCCURDY. I can’t remember. Now, I get the feeling that Russ went down with me to open the door, and the more I think about it, I’m not exactly sure that he did.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that was about 20 minutes after the phone call?

Mr. MCCURDY. Right. I would say sometime before 1 o’clock, around a quarter to 1.

Mr. HUBERT. You testified a minute ago, I think, that you thought the phone call was about 12:20, so this would have been 12:40 or 12:45?

Mr. MCCURDY. Right; correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?

Mr. MCCURDY. To my knowledge Jack stayed, maybe an hour or maybe longer. After our conversation ended, I didn’t really take note of whether Jack was still in there or not--he was kind of a hanger-on.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him but just these few minutes?

Mr. MCCURDY. The two times I talked to him--once in the hall and in the control room.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether he was there when Glenn Duncan went on his 2 o’clock news broadcast?

Mr. MCCURDY. I can’t remember--I really can’t remember. I’ll tell you--there was a diversionary action going on and I was paying attention to this Pappas, what’s his name, that was from WNEW. Of course, all of us in markets the size of Dallas are always interested in larger markets like New York and Chicago, and I was kind of watching him, and so it threw part of my attention off of Jack on to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what a thing called an Alpawna [spelling] A-l-p-a-w-n-a box is?

Mr. MCCURDY. A what?

Mr. HUBERT. An Alpawna box?

Mr. MCCURDY. Alpawna box--no; I don’t. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t either.

Mr. MCCURDY. Apparently, if it was of any size, he didn’t have it on him, because as I testified to the FBI agent, he didn’t look like he had a gun on him of any kind. Of course, he may have.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how he was dressed?

Mr. MCCURDY. Yes; he had on to my recollection a dark charcoal business suit with a matching dark tie and with dark shoes and a dark hat with a little funny band on it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about an overcoat?

Mr. MCCURDY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He had no topcoat on?

Mr. MCCURDY. No topcoat on.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the famous Weissman ad?

Mr. MCCURDY. Weissman ad?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; which appeared in the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. MCCURDY. Oh, yes; wait a minute, what did it say?

Mr. HUBERT. It asked some questions of Mr. Kennedy and so forth.

Mr. MCCURDY. It was an advertisement for a local establishment?

Mr. HUBERT. No; it was an advertisement generally critical of the President. It was a full-page ad which appeared on the day of the President’s visit and at the very bottom of it it was signed by Mr. Bernard Weissman.

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, I don’t remember that. I do remember a local grocery store chain--I remember what it was--it was a grocery store chain or something--it was in, I think, the Morning News the next morning--they failed to pull out, after President Kennedy was killed; Saturday morning this came out and it was a picture of a rocking chair and the back of a man and it was, of course, President Kennedy and the little girl was standing there saying something cute and something funny and it would have been very funny had it not been that day, but it was just an oversight and a tragedy.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, coming back to the Weissman ad, you had no conversation with Ruby about any such thing?

Mr. MCCURDY. Oh, no; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby in the course of his conversation with you or with anyone else you heard advert to the Jewish question or Judaism in any way at all?

Mr. MCCURDY. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him make any comments with respect to a pamphlet called “Heroism”?

Mr. MCCURDY. No; now, I heard this--the reason this sticks in my mind is because it was by H. L. Hunt, isn’t it, or a Life Line reprint from H. L. Hunt?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. MCCURDY. Russ Knight, the Weird Beard, mentioned it to me later on that Jack had given him this. He didn’t give me a copy of it, but he apparently passed it to Russ in a very militant manner, apparently, from what Russ had to say.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did not converse with you about it at all?

Mr. MCCURDY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s general attitude and state of mind or state of emotions that night?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, I hesitate to use any adjectives for fear of it causing it to be misleading.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, it’s a matter of semantics, but once we get an adjective perhaps we can then use it as a point of departure by describing physical action.

Mr. MCCURDY. Right; I would say, just glancing back, that Jack’s overall mood and appearance that night was--looking at it now strictly in the light of his actions on Sunday, it would appear to me that he was in a, well--to draw a bad analogy--a state of a dormant volcano. He was very dormant, quiet--he looked like he was mulling over many things, which I’m sure he was and all of us were at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem abnormally sad?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, more so than myself. Of course, I was very shook up about this. He did seem more so than I felt like I would have expressed it.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he manifest it?

Mr. MCCURDY. By being sullen, quiet, looking at the floor, glancing far away into space for no apparent reason. This is what I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any statements that now in retrospect you can classify as being related to his subsequent actions?

Mr. MCCURDY. None.

Mr. HUBERT. No threats?

Mr. MCCURDY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or comments such as “Somebody ought to do something about this”?

Mr. MCCURDY. Well, he said he was doing something about it by closing down his club and missing his money. Now, this is something I just thought of looking back in retrospect, as you said. By him mentioning to me that he was closing down his club, apparently he was trying to give me a feeling that he was making a tremendous sacrifice, monetary sacrifice in order to hold up or support national pride of some kind of his own. Looking at it in the light of what he did on Sunday, I can see that apparently he wanted to draw some of my attention to him and that he was making a tremendous sacrifice.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression then?

Mr. MCCURDY. No; I didn’t--I didn’t. I must say that truthfully--it’s only in retrospect. It wasn’t that outstanding at that particular time.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe that’s all, sir. Have you anything else that you wish to add?

Mr. MCCURDY. Nothing else.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t believe there has been any conversation between us that has not become a part of the record; is that correct? We have not discussed anything off the record?

Mr. MCCURDY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And everything that has passed between us has become a part of this record?

Mr. MCCURDY. Other than our meeting at the door. We said nothing other than, “Hello, and glad to meet you.”

Mr. HUBERT. All right; very good, and thank you very much.

Mr. MCCURDY. All right; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN WILKINS NEWNAM

The testimony of John Wilkins Newnam was taken at 10:51 a.m., on June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. John Newnam.

Mr. Newnam, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald and the participation of Jack Ruby therein. Particularly as to you, Mr. Newnam, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth, and his movements on the pertinent days. Now, I believe you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, asking you to be present; is that correct, sir?

Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter, Mr. Newnam?

Mr. NEWNAM. I received this letter Wednesday, June 24.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of the letter or the mail stamp, if it has a mail stamp, and if it doesn’t have a mail stamp, what is the date of the letter?

Mr. NEWNAM. The letter was written--the letter is dated June 22, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any objection to having your deposition taken today?

Mr. NEWNAM. None whatsoever; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me state to you that under the rules of the Commission all witnesses have a right to have a 3-day written notice, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that notice, and I take it from your previous answer that you do waive that?

Mr. NEWNAM. I do; yes; absolutely.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise so that I may administer the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NEWNAM. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, sir?

Mr. NEWNAM. John Wilkins Newnam.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. NEWNAM. 3124 Kingston.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. NEWNAM. Forty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. NEWNAM. Advertising salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?

Mr. NEWNAM. Dallas Morning News.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. NEWNAM. With the News totally?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. NEWNAM. Since 1936--January, I believe, of 1936--that’s 1946–56, that’s about 28 years now.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that’s about the only job you’ve held in your life?

Mr. NEWNAM. That’s the only job I’ve had--yes, sir; and in the various departments.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any official capacity as an officer or something of that sort?

Mr. NEWNAM. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Newnam, I want to show you a document which I have marked for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of John Newnam.” I have signed my name below that language and I ask you if you have not signed your name below my name?

Mr. NEWNAM. I have, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Newnam, this purports to be a chart of the second floor of the building occupied by the Dallas Morning News and particularly occupied by the advertising and promotion departments of that newspaper; is that correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. This is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you draw this yourself?

Mr. NEWNAM. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like you to take this document and first of all, holding it in an upright position so that your signature and mine are upright as we look at it, and Young Street is on the right and Houston Street is on the top, I ask you, you see the word “Promotion” in a number of squares which are unnumbered, and I ask you what that means?

Mr. NEWNAM. The number of squares indicate desks in the promotion department.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have not numbered those?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in a square at the intersection of Houston and Young Streets, that is to say, in the upper right-hand corner of this chart, Exhibit No. 4, there is apparently an office; is that correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I see a squigly line at the bottom of that and the words, “Clear glass partition.” Does that mean that you can see through that?

Mr. NEWNAM. You can; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two lines to the left of that square which apparently are intended to indicate a door, is that right?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there actually a door there in the sense that there is a door to be closed?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s simply an opening; is that correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice a square with the No. 1 written in it and ask you what that is?

Mr. NEWNAM. That’s the desk of Mr. Dick Jeffery.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. NEWNAM. Promotion manager of the Dallas News.

Mr. HUBERT. Is the square in which the desk No. 1 is shown the office of Mr. Jeffery?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice a dot with a circle around it and then a line leading out, and then you have to turn the paper upside down and there’s the words “TV set,” was there a TV set there at that position on November 22, 1963?

Mr. NEWNAM. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which way was the set facing--that is to say, the screen?

Mr. NEWNAM. Facing the door.

Mr. HUBERT. The door and the glass partition, is that correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice that there are a number of other squares on the Houston Street side. What are they?

Mr. NEWNAM. Other offices of officers of the advertising and promotion department.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, I notice that immediately to the left of what you’ve described as the promotion department, there are some posts and files; correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have a square with the No. 2 in it; what is that?

Mr. NEWNAM. No. 2 is the desk of Mr. Jim Black, the assistant retail advertising manager.

Mr. HUBERT. Immediately below No. 2 there are a number of desks, or apparently squares, having each of them two numbers in them. Will you explain what that means?

Mr. NEWNAM. That means that we have two desks side by side and each is occupied by an individual.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have not shown on this map the way the occupant of the desk faces, but is it true that all the occupants face Houston Street?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir; just the opposite. They face away from Houston Street.

Mr. HUBERT. So that their backs are there?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; correct--excuse me--except in the offices here [indicating]--some of these may face as Mr. Jeffery does--this way.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you’re talking about the offices along the Houston Street side?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But the numbered desks--all persons, if seated at those desks--would have their backs to Houston Street?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you take the map, and dictate into the record who was the occupant of the various desks, and I think you have already done so as to No. 2, so you may start with No. 3.

Mr. NEWNAM. No. 3--Miss Georgia Mayor, secretary.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she the secretary to?

Mr. NEWNAM. She is the--just an office secretary--no individual.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, before you go on--I take it that all of this chart and the position of the desks and the people occupying them relate to November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir; and I was just having to think. There have been a few changes from the present back to then.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if we can just put it as to the 22d of November, then we won’t have to worry about who occupies the various places now.

Mr. NEWNAM. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. No. 3 was Miss Georgia Mayor?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.

Mr. NEWNAM. No. 4--Mrs. Walker, secretary to the retail advertising manager.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember her first name?

Mr. NEWNAM. Wanda.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Wanda Walker?

Mr. NEWNAM. Mrs. Wanda Walker. No. 5--Mr. Dick Saunders, advertising salesman. No. 6--Mr. Charley Mulkey.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. NEWNAM (spelling). M-u-l-k-e-y, advertising salesman--these are all salesmen. No. 7--Mr. Larry Kramer (spelling) K-r-a-m-e-r, advertising salesman. Did I give you No. 6?

The REPORTER. No. 6 was Mr. Mulkey.

Mr. NEWNAM. No. 6 should be Mr. Ralph Crumpton, advertising salesman; 7 Mr. Kramer; 8 will be Mr. Charley Mulkey, advertising salesman; 9 Mr. Douglas Raiford; No. 10 Mr. “Rip” Collins--we call him by the nickname “Rip” Collins, advertising salesman; No. 11 Mr. Len (spelling) L-e-n Reynolds, advertising salesman; No. 12 Mr. Jim Packer, advertising salesman; No. 13 Mr. Paul Jones, advertising salesman; No. 14 Mr. Jim Willmon (spelling) W-i-l-l-m-o-n, advertising salesman; No. 15 Mr. Buddy Jones, assistant retail advertising manager; No. 16 Mr. Bob Johnson, advertising salesman; No. 17 Mr. Jim Sullivan, advertising salesman; No. 18 Mr. Bill Rea (spelling) R-e-a, advertising salesman; No. 19 Mr. Hal Cooley (spelling) C-o-o-l-e-y, advertising salesman; No. 20 Mr. Jules Allen (spelling) J-u-l-e-s A-l-l-e-n, advertising salesman; No. 21 Mr. Bill Lawson, advertising salesman; No. 22 Mr. Byron Bates, advertising salesman; No. 23 John Newnam, which is my desk, advertising salesman; No. 24 Mr. Jerry Coley (spelling) C-o-l-e-y, advertising salesman; No. 25 Mr. Don Campbell (spelling) C-a-m-p-b-e-1-l, advertising salesman; No. 26 Mr. Kenney Ritchel; No. 27 Mr. Dick Houston, advertising salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you two documents. The first one I have marked for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of John Newnam,” and I have signed it, and it purports to be an interview of you by FBI Agents Peden and Garris on December 4, 1963. I think you’ve read that and I ask you if that is a correct report of the interview with you?

Mr. NEWNAM. The report as I read it is all correct--the second line of paragraph 2 which states, “A short time after he, Newnam, sat down,” I would like to add “sat down at Mr. Byron Bates’ desk,” which is adjacent to my desk.

Mr. HUBERT. What again is Mr. Bates’ desk, referring to the chart identified as Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. NEWNAM. That would be desk No. 22.

Mr. HUBERT. What change do you want to make--that you sat down----

Mr. NEWNAM. At Mr. Bates’ desk, which would indicate I sat down next to my desk where Jack was sitting.

Mr. HUBERT. Your desk was 23?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Any other corrections?

Mr. NEWNAM. I think that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you had mentioned something about Sanger-Harris?

Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, yes; in paragraph 1 reference is made to where I witnessed the parade on November 22--“at Austin and Main Streets by Sanger-Harris Brothers.” It should read “Austin and Main Streets by Sanger-Harris Company.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you want to delete the word “Brothers” and add the word “Company”?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, Exhibit No. 1 is correct; is that right?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I invite your attention to a document which I have identified as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of John Newnam,” and I have signed my name below that inscription, and it purports to be an interview of you by Mr. Jack Peden on December 10, 1963, and I think you’ve read it, and I ask you if that’s a correct report of the interview?

Mr. NEWNAM. It is, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Finally, I have handed to you previously a document purporting to be a transcription of your testimony during the Ruby trial, which runs from numbered pages 28 through 46, and for the purpose of identification, I have marked page 28 as follows: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, Deposition of John Newnam,” and I have signed my name below that and I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of all the subsequent pages. I think you have read this document I have identified as Exhibit No. 3, have you not?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. According to your recollection, is that a correct transcription of the questions asked you and of the answers given by you?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think these exhibits previously identified, indicate that you have known Jack Ruby for some considerable period of time prior to November 22?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And in what way did you know him?

Mr. NEWNAM. I knew him as a person--as a customer of the Dallas News, in placing advertising which I handled for him.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you placed his advertising for two nightclubs he had, the Vegas and the Carousel?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he always come to you with his ads?

Mr. NEWNAM. Not always because I wasn’t in the office, but he would if I was there. Now, some of the other man would handle these things, in the event the man who handles the account is not present.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would handle his advertising?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How often would you see him for that purpose?

Mr. NEWNAM. Oh, I would say two or three times a week average, depending on this--it would be of course dependent upon how much advertising he planned to run.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him on November 22, 1963?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. NEWNAM. At the Dallas News advertising department.

Mr. HUBERT. The second floor?

Mr. NEWNAM. The second floor.

Mr. HUBERT. In the building on the corner of Houston and Young Streets?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us what time it was you first saw Ruby on that day?

Mr. NEWNAM. It was approximately 12:40.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that time, sir?

Mr. NEWNAM. I fix that time this way: I watched the motorcade at Main and Austin. After the motorcade had passed, naturally, I proceeded to the office to take care of a few matters which had to be taken care of.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been to the office prior to going to see the parade?

Mr. NEWNAM. I had been there early in the morning; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you leave to go to see the parade?

Mr. NEWNAM. Well, I left on our regular business--I left the office--I imagine around 9:15 or 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby was not there then?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then about your fixing of the time at which you got back to the second floor of the building.

Mr. NEWNAM. I knew the motorcade was coming to Dallas and through downtown, and since my area covers downtown, I was rather anxious to get as much done as quickly as possible to get back to the office, and after taking care of the business which was normal to take care of, I walked back to the--I was walking back to the office because it was just about as quick to walk as to try to wait for a shopper’s bus, because the crowd was gathering.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you saw the parade, how far were you from the Dallas Morning News office?

Mr. NEWNAM. I was about--well, walking distance, I would say about 7 or 8 blocks.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you walk back?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Approximately what time do you think you saw the President pass?

Mr. NEWNAM. I would say approximately 12--it must have been about 12:25 or possibly 12:26.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your position on Austin and Main and proceed to walk back to the Dallas Morning News Building, immediately after the President himself had passed in the motorcade?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you walked the 7 blocks or so?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was Ruby on the second floor of the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. NEWNAM. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he standing or sitting or what was he doing?

Mr. NEWNAM. He was sitting at my desk.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say--No. 23 on Exhibit No. 4, is that correct?

Mr. NEWNAM. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know at that time when you first saw him, that the President had been shot?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?

Mr. NEWNAM. He was looking at a paper; I believe it was that morning’s issue of the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, was he engaged in drawing up the draft of an ad?

Mr. NEWNAM. This--he had already completed--this he had finished, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that, did he hand it to you when he came in?

Mr. NEWNAM. I had--just--someone had reserved the space and he had fixed it, prepared the ad and put it in the box, which he knew what to do--the procedure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with him immediately upon your arrival?

Mr. NEWNAM. Spoke.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it unusual----

Mr. NEWNAM. I just spoke in the usual manner--I said, “Hi Jack” and he spoke back, and that was about all.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it unusual that he should be occupying your desk?

Mr. NEWNAM. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a telephone at your desk?

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