Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 4 of 8)

Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15) (part 4 of 8)

I was in civilian clothes at the time. However, I carried my weapon with me. On arriving at the terminal, I saw Mr. Hall and Mr. Goin, and a few minutes upon arrival Mr. Fleming arrived on the scene.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you change into your uniform?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir. I had arrived in civilian clothes, and I had no other attire to put on since my uniform was at home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Goin change or anyone else change into uniform?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, Mr. Goin was in uniform when I saw him. Mr. Hall, of course, was not, because he never wears a uniform, nor does Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you stated that you received this call from Mr.----

Mr. DIETRICH. Harold Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you also receive a call from Mr. Hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. I can’t recall right offhand whether I did or not. Actually, I didn’t receive any call myself. My mother, if I remember correctly, received--she might have received a call from Mr. Hall, as well as Mr. Fleming. I am not quite sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, you called Mr. Fleming at his home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed that at 10:30. Are you sure that is correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed the time of your calling Mr. Fleming at 10:30. I asked you to reexamine that and see if that is correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, if I remember correctly, my mother received a call from Mr. Fleming on or about 9:45. As to my calling him at 10:30, I can’t truthfully say whether it was 10:30 or not. It was on or about that time.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had you left your home?

Mr. DIETRICH. I left home to visit the drugstore, to have a cup of coffee, I would say about 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. How far is the drugstore from your home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, about 2 miles.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go by automobile?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a cup of coffee?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the drugstore?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, I imagine I stayed there about 10 minutes; not too long.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the drugstore, and where is it located?

Mr. DIETRICH. Let’s see; well, I go to various drugstores on Sunday. I go to Skillern’s sometimes, and Dobbs House.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of which one you went to on this particular Sunday?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, I just can’t remember, because I don’t go to the same one each Sunday. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left there, you came right back home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far, in point of driving time, was that drugstore?

Mr. DIETRICH. I would say about 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned the drugstore as being 2 miles away and taking 5 minutes. Does that help you in any way in fixing what drugstore it was?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, there are four different drugstores I visit off and on from Sunday to Sunday, and they are all approximately 2 miles, I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. So that either the distance, the way you mentioned on the time it takes to get there would not have----

Mr. DIETRICH. Would not have an effect on the time. I would say 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were gone from your home about an hour?

Mr. DIETRICH. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you gone from your home about an hour?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I wasn’t gone. If I remember correctly, I left at 9:30. It took me 5 minutes to get to the drugstore. I spent, I guess, about 10 minutes in the drugstore. That is 15 minutes.

And 5 minutes back, was 20 minutes. I told you I arrived back at a quarter to 10, on or about a quarter to 10. It might have been 10 minutes till 10.

Mr. HUBERT. It was at that time that you received the message from your mother that Mr. Fleming had called and wanted you to call him?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. My recollection was, and correct me if I am wrong, that earlier you said you called Mr. Fleming at about 10:30. Now it appears you say that it might have been considerably earlier?

Mr. DIETRICH. I was thinking I had arrived at the terminal at 10:30. I think I called Mr. Fleming--well, I may have said that, but I really believe that I arrived at the terminal about 10:30. I called him on or about a quarter to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Called at a quarter to 10?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes. To tell you the truth, I don’t recall when I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave right after you called?

Mr. DIETRICH. After I talked to Mr. Fleming?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. I left, I imagine, in about 5 or 10 minutes. Let’s see, it was about--oh, I brushed my hair and I had to get my revolver, or I cleaned it, just wiped it off.

I didn’t want to get my clothes dirty, because it was a little on the greasy side.

I guess I left about 10 minutes after he called, or after I talked with him, rather.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did it take you to go from your home to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, I would say about 20 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you follow?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I left my home on Harter Road, entered North Cliff, took a right on North Cliff on Buckner, Buckner to Loop 12, Loop 12 to Central Expressway, and then I made an exit to Ross, took a right on Ross to the terminal, which is about six blocks from Ross and Central Expressway.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you left your home about 10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. DIETRICH. After I talked to Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would have left your home about 5 minutes after 10, or 10?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you arrived at the terminal at 10:20 or 10:25?

Mr. DIETRICH. Along about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to you when you got to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. On arriving at the terminal, the first two people I met were Don Goin and Bert Hall. I referred to him as Bert Hall. His name is Marvin.

Mr. HUBERT. They were both there?

Mr. DIETRICH. They were in the parking area of the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your arrival did Mr. Fleming arrive?

Mr. DIETRICH. Mr. Fleming arrived approximately 5 minutes after I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? What did the four of you do?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, at the time, the company officials weren’t too sure as to what their plan was, as to what they were supposed to do.

I think Mr. Fleming used the outside phone. There is a phone on the outside of the building which remains locked. We had a key to it. He opened it and called, I think, Captain Batchelor, or someone by that name, and I walked away. I didn’t overhear the conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Who opened the door to the company building, to the terminal? Did you have a key yourself?

Mr. DIETRICH. I sure did. That is why I was called down there. Yes, I had the keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Not the keys to the truck, but the keys----

Mr. DIETRICH. No, the key to the terminal. Of course, I didn’t enter the terminal until Mr. Fleming had talked with this captain. I think his name is Batchelor, or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. He is with the police department?

Mr. DIETRICH. We think he is assistant to chief of police.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. DIETRICH. After Mr. Fleming talked to him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, he received instructions from him. There was a question as to which truck was going to be used, and they decided they wanted to use the larger truck, which is No. 46. It is, I guess, one of the largest armored cars in the world.

And he also found out from the captain as to when they were supposed to arrive. And then there was a question----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any information as to when he was supposed to arrive?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t, because I didn’t want Mr. Fleming to think I was eavesdropping.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean; did he tell you what time?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; he didn’t. I think he talked with Mr. Hall as to what time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t hear that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, after he talked with this captain at the police department, there was a question of whether we should take shotguns and as to how many shotguns we were to take, and so forth, and so on. And Mr. Fleming and Mr. Hall decided not to take shotguns, that revolvers would be enough. Mr. Fleming’s contention was that actually we were only going to transport Oswald from the city jail to the county jail, and that it was up to the police to provide the necessary protection. All we were going to do was to provide the transportation.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had your sidearm, but you did not put the shotgun on the shoulder as usual?

Mr. DIETRICH. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any delay in getting away?

Mr. DIETRICH. None; other than the time consumed discussing whether we would take shotguns or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any difficulty in starting the larger car due to battery difficulty?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; we had difficulty starting it.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of difficulty, and how long did it take to cure it?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I think about 10 minutes to start the truck; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it started?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, they backed another truck up to it, and I think they used a hotshot. They brought a cable out and connected up one battery to the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t participate in it because I was dressed up and I didn’t feel like getting dirty. It was Mr. Hall and Don Goin were the ones participating in getting the truck started.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ride from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; with Don Goin. Don drove.

Mr. HUBERT. What truck were you in?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, that I can’t remember. I asked Don Goin prior to my coming in here, actually, as to which truck it was. He can’t remember and I can’t either. I think it was 49. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was not the larger truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; Mr. Fleming and Mr. Hall were in 46, which is the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you can’t remember which truck you rode in, you were talking about what number it had, but you do remember that you rode in the smaller of the two?

Mr. DIETRICH. The smaller of the two; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the smaller of the two?

Mr. DIETRICH. Don Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually follow the larger truck; or did it follow you?

Mr. DIETRICH. We followed the large truck.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, we entered Ross Avenue, took a left on Harwood, drove up Harwood to Commerce, and took a left and proceeded about one-half block and parked on the left side of the street, I would say, about 5 feet beyond the ramp that goes into the basement of the city jail or city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you passed the exit on Commerce Street from the city hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir; we did. We had to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you pass the larger truck and get in front of it; or did you wait until it backed in before you proceeded further?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly; we passed the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. And got in front of it?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; we got in front of it, and if I remember correctly, the larger truck had difficulty maneuvering into position in order to back into the--I started to say cellar--basement. Actually, it was too large to go into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us how long it was between the time you first arrived at the terminal, considering the various things you have said happened, until you left starting off to go to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. You mean from the time I arrived at the terminal?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; until the time you left the terminal.

Mr. DIETRICH. How much time was consumed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. I would say 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of how long it took to make the drive from the terminal to the jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, it was a Sunday morning. Traffic wasn’t very heavy. We knew the route. We knew how to get there, and we knew the fastest route. I would say 6 or 7 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you parked, as you say you did, about 5 feet beyond the Commerce Street entrance, and until you ultimately left, did you ever leave the immediate vicinity of the armored truck that you had gone in?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir; I got out several times, if I remember correctly.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did you walk away from it?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; well, just a few feet, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I said, the immediate vicinity. You didn’t go, say, 10 feet from it?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t think so. I think I walked to the rear of the truck, but not beyond it. One reason why I didn’t was because I was in civilian clothes and I didn’t want to be questioned by any of the officers in the vicinity as to why I was there.

Had I been in uniform, I would have perhaps walked around a little more. But I stayed in the cab of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When did it first come to your attention there had been a shooting in the basement? How did you learn that?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I didn’t know about it until after I had left the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. Until after you left what?

Mr. DIETRICH. After we left the city hall and went back to the terminal and then started for home.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know there was a shooting?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t know there was a shooting. I remained in the cab most of the time, other than the few times I stepped out to look around and observe the crowd, et cetera. We were sitting in the cab of the truck, and Mr. Hall walked up and told us, he said, “It’s all off. It’s been called off.” We didn’t question him. He didn’t elaborate in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t find out that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. DIETRICH. Nor did I hear any shot fired.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know he had been shot until after you got back to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I didn’t even know that anything had happened after we returned to the terminal, because if I remember correctly, Mr. Hall and Mr. Fleming, we never did see them upon returning to the terminal. And Don Goin and I parked the truck, got in our cars, and we had plans to meet at a coffeeshop on Ross Avenue and have a cup of coffee before we departed for our respective homes. While we were in this cafe we heard the radio playing, or heard the announcer on the news, and one of the waitresses informed us that Jack Ruby had killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t notice any commotion around the jail prior to leaving?

Mr. DIETRICH. I heard a siren and perhaps it was the ambulance arriving to take Oswald from the city jail to Parkland Hospital, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You left, however, before the big truck pulled out of the entrance?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; I heard some confusion, and I thought perhaps something had happened, I wasn’t sure, but I didn’t know really what had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing any police cars come up to the Commerce Street exit after the big truck had backed into that exit?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t remember any.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a police car coming along and it backing in front of the big truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a police car come and park in front of your car at any time?

Mr. DIETRICH. I think I faintly remember one, maybe, moving in front of us. As to how long he stayed there; I don’t know. If I remember correctly; he didn’t remain in front of us very long.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing any police car back up so that its rear was almost touching the front of the big truck parked in the exit?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t, because there is no way that you can--we don’t have a mirror in front--we can’t see to our rear by looking in a mirror in the front like a conventional automobile. Our only means of vision would be our side mirrors, and I don’t remember any police car backing back that was blocking the rear of the big truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Blocking the front?

Mr. DIETRICH. The front; I meant, because he backed in. May I smoke?

Mr. HUBERT. Surely; were you or Mr. Goin and Mr. Hall or Mr. Fleming wearing any kind of overcoat on that day?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t think so. It was a rather cool day and windy. An overcoat would have felt good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any TV mobile unit vans parked on the same side of the street as you were, but closer to----

Mr. DIETRICH. They were right across the street; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any parked on the same side of the street as you, but back of you toward Harwood?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I couldn’t swear to it. Could have been. Might have been. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether there were any people moving in and out of the Commerce Street exit where the large truck was parked during the time that you were there?

Mr. DIETRICH. I think I noticed a few policemen moving in and out; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people in civilian clothes moving in and out other than Mr. Fleming?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there police about the big truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t see too many policemen near the big truck; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any policemen on either side of the truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from what you said, you had no opportunity to look down the Commerce Street ramp at all, did you?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, about the only thing I was able to observe was when I left the truck a few minutes to walk a few feet to the rear of it.

Mr. HUBERT. But since you were 5 feet beyond the Commerce Street entrance, you only walked at the most 10 feet from it? You never did get at an angle so you could look down?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I never did. I was rather reluctant to do that, because I didn’t want to be questioned by the police since I wasn’t in uniform.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Dietrich, I don’t think that we have had any conversation or there has been any questions or answers between you and me other than what has been recorded this evening, is that correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, that is correct? You agree with it?

Mr. DIETRICH. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

Mr. DIETRICH. I am sorry my memory was rather hazy.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. You did your best.

TESTIMONY OF EILEEN KAMINSKY

The testimony of Eileen Kaminsky was taken on July 23, 1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure, Mrs. Kaminsky, is for me to say a few words at the beginning by way of introduction and then to administer the oath to you. Then, we will go on with the questioning at that point. Now, so that the record is clear, I will state again that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson which was issued in late November, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to investigate and to evaluate and to report back to the President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has authority to take testimony and to designate various members of its staff for the purpose of taking that testimony, and I have been designated to take your testimony here today. Our particular reason for calling you, of course, is to obtain what information we can in particular about your brother, Jack Ruby, and about the death of Lee Oswald, although if you have any information you can provide us on any of the subjects that we are concerned with, concerning the death of President Kennedy, we also would like any of that information.

I might first ask you if you received a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you received that letter?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Sunday--well, we picked it up at the post office. We weren’t home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I mentioned it is that under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3 days’ notice before you appear for your testimony, and I take it from what you have said that that provision has been complied with. Do you have any questions before we start--before I start asking you questions?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any questions about what the proceeding is about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have any as we go along, just feel free to ask me. Would you raise your right hand then and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Eileen Kaminsky, E-i-l-e-e-n K-a-m-i-n-s-k-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mrs. Kaminsky?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. 6724 North Talman, T-a-l-m-a-n, Chicago 45, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. July 11, 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you born here in Chicago?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you the youngest child in the family?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have seven brothers and sisters; is that correct?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; four brothers and three sisters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were married?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; October 26, 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you lived in Chicago all your life?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. All my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you a few questions at the outset about your family, and I don’t know how much information you have on the subject since you are the youngest in the family, but you may----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I found that out. I didn’t know so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume that as a child and as an adult, you had occasion to talk to your mother and father about their background. Do you know, or have you heard in that fashion where your mother was born?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I--it is a town in either Poland or Russia but I can’t think of it. My mother has been gone 20 years, and we never really did talk that much, although I know I have heard the town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many brothers or sisters your mother had?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t--I really don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; do you know how many brothers or sisters he had?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he had one brother who passed away a few years ago. That was the only one I knew of, and my mother had--she did have a brother who just passed away a couple years ago, too; however, I don’t know--I know she had a half- or step-sister at one time. As a matter of fact, she is still--one of the daughters of that half-sister is still living.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What was the half-sister’s name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in Jewish--I didn’t even know the English.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be in Jewish?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Hysura.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you spell that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they live?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, when I--I don’t even remember her, it’s so many years ago, even when my mother says--she was in her fifties. This woman I think was already in her eighties or something, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, did your mother ever explain to you how she happened to have a half-sister?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. If she did, I don’t remember. I don’t really think we--at least, I never went into it too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any information about what your mother’s father did, your maternal grandfather?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, there was some story that my mother’s mother was supposed to have been some sort of doctor. In those days, I don’t know what they considered a doctor, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supposed to have been the doctor----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother’s father or your mother’s mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. I don’t know. [My maternal grandmother was supposed, to have been the doctor.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother talk about these things?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much. One of my sisters, or a couple of them, used to talk about it once in a while, but never a--not very often.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you were born in 1917?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there came a time about 1921 when your family broke up. What became of you when Jack was put in a foster home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was also put in a foster home. I was in several. It’s pretty vague to me, to be truthful, but I remember being in a couple of them, I think, until I was about 9 years old. Then, the family came together again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother and father visit you while you were in that foster home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. My mother, especially. My mother did; I don’t remember about my father so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were all of the children put in foster homes at that time?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know about the older ones, but we younger ones were. The older ones may have been--I think I might have been around--you say 1921. I thought I was about six which would bring it to 1923. Now, say the sister next to Jack is about 8 years older than I am. She would have been 14----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; right. I’m trying to think where. I know Earl. I remember Earl, one time, some farm of some kind; I guess Jack did, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a time in your life as a child that none of the children were living in the home with your mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You mean not even the older ones; is that it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. I imagine there might have been a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were in the foster home, what contact did you have with your other brothers and sisters?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Very little, if I remember. I think, maybe, it seems, you know, it’s so long ago--I’m 47 now and it’s a long time. It seems to me that occasionally I would see my sisters. I remember when I was young having measles, it seemed to me my sister came, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you know about your father at this point when you were in the foster home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, not too much. He lived apart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that while you were in the foster home he was not living with your mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that I--I know. I feel that is true.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and how old were you when you returned to the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember having a ninth birthday party and we were together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the whole family together at that point?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think everybody was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have made it 1926?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your father living at home at that point?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; he wasn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was it before your father came back and lived in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, actually, he never did return under--how shall I say--under friendly circumstances with my mother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. There was a time when he came back because he was ill and then later, after she passed away, he came back. That’s 20 years ago, he came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He came back when he was ill?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; there was a time when he was ill and he needed some attention. It’s kind of vague in my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, prior to the time you went into the foster home, was your father living in the home then?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal recollection of it? I mean, when he came back.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t remember that far back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When your father was ill, how long did he remain in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know. This is all vague to me. I really don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period from the early 1920’s until your father returned to the home, how often did you see him?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t think I saw a great deal of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be? Would you see him once a month or once every 3 months or----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Perhaps, more like once every 3 months. I mean I can’t pin it down definitely, but it would be----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of interest did he show in the children?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know how to answer that. He had a struggle taking care of himself. I am afraid--as a matter of fact, when the children were old enough, they tried to take care of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you explain the willingness of the children to take care of your father even though he apparently didn’t do much taking care of you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he was our father. I guess it might all boil down to that, and we did have a--quite an affection for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We often thought if my mother hadn’t been so emotional and--perhaps, things might have been different.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your father show kindnesses towards you even though--when he wasn’t living in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think he did towards the children; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things do you remember him doing?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, buying meat, clothes or shoes or things. In those days, it was difficult to obtain; depression days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living when he wasn’t living with your people?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he wasn’t?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember vaguely him living with a--you would call it now the east side, around Halsted Street or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with someone else?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, he usually had his own little--just probably a room and a bathroom and a kitchen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. There might have been times that he’d have--you know, a man friend, well, a man, or a man his age.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of a date as to when he returned to the home on a permanent basis?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think it’s--perhaps, after my mother passed away. She passed away in April of 1944, so it was some time after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you have any information about his relationship with your brother, Jack, before he moved back into the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Jack always felt kind of sorry for him, you know, being--his being alone. Jack is a very compassionate person. He always feels sorry for the underdogs, so to speak.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude towards your mother?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very fond of her. As a matter of fact, I often feel he was her favorite child.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you feel that way?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember once she was very ill and she had given him some money to hold for her. She thought she was dying, and I think it was around $15, just--I don’t exactly know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He wanted to make her feel good so he says, “Ma,” he says, “gee, you have got $85 here.”

Well, she recovered and she wanted her $85 back, and I said, “Jack, what are you going to do?”

He says, “I am going to give it to her.” He says, “It made her feel good, didn’t it,” and that was one of his expressions. It made her feel good or it made him feel good, just so it makes you feel good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was--well, I don’t think it was too long before she passed away. I’d say, perhaps, that same year because she had been pretty sickly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well now, there was a time in the 1930’s when your mother had considerable psychiatric difficulties and she was hospitalized?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack at that time give the family any help with her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. What kind of help do you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did he--did he come back; did he take an interest of any sort in----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I really don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think when she was hospitalized, I think we were all together then, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time that you returned from the foster home until you were married in 1947, did you live all of the time in the family home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, during that period, do you recall the times that Jack lived in the home with you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t recall the specific time but he did live home quite a bit of the time, and then there were times when he--when he didn’t live home, when he lived with a boy friend or when he was old enough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was out on his own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after he reached adulthood, well, let’s take it from, say, 1929, when he would have been 18 until he went to California in 1933, do you recall how much of the time Jack lived in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he went to California, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. From 1929 to 1933; that is, from the time he was about 18 until the time he went to California in 1933, how much time did he spend in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, do you remember when he came back from California?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. It’s rather vague.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know when he was out in California, though, he took care of my sister, Eva, out there. She and her son.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your sisters, which ones--which one would you say has the most information about the family background; who would be most familiar with it?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think, perhaps, any of the three because, you see, the boys are between me and the sisters so there is enough age there for them to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Have that difference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Eva----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva might and Marion might. Probably, Eva would have as much as anybody, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any recollection of your father living in the home with your mother until the time that he got sick and returned for a little while?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no; and I--you know, I am a little vague even about that time when he was sick. I am trying to think when--whether there was a time when--actually, a wall collapsed on him. You know, he had been a carpenter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don’t know whether it was that time or some other time. It is all very hazy; very hazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, it sounds to me from what you are telling me that from the time Jack would have been 10 or 12; that is, 1921 or 1923, until he became an adult, there was no real father in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That’s right, and even afterwards, I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. So that all the boys really grew up without a father in the home----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Does that seem accurate to you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to visit Jack in the period from the time he went to Dallas until he shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I was out there twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was there this last August for the--the last 2 weeks in August with my children, and I was there the preceding year for a week and then Jack even stopped in Chicago last August, just a week I believe, before I went down there just between planes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to Dallas on the first occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was kind of run down and nervous, frankly, I wanted to get away from the children a little bit and I didn’t know where to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don’t remember if I called him or asked him if he’d mind if I’d come down, but whatever it was, he welcomed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I stayed a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down alone?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. The first time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay with Jack or with one of your other brothers and sisters?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I stayed with Jack that time, all the time. This last trip, I stayed primarily with Eva because I had the two little girls and she had more--not necessarily should I say “more time,” but because of all the women being together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How old are your children?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eight and 11½.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are both girls?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the first time that you went down, why was it that you decided to stay with Jack rather than Eva or Sam?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I--frankly, I was--felt closer to Jack. I mean Jack has always been wonderful to me and not that I used to go to him with problems, I never had such problems, but always has been very understanding, considerate, and I just thought it would be more to my liking to stay with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you have a chance to meet any of his friends on that occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, as a matter of fact, that week, this master of ceremonies who reads minds--I forget his name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill DeMar?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes. He was staying there, and I asked Jack what he was doing there and--this is Jack. He says--well, he says, “He needs the money to send to his wife and kids, so why should he pay a hotel room, so I let him stay here.” And Jack fed him, too, and he was staying there that week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Where was Jack living at that time?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think it was the--on Monterey--Monterey or Ewing, it seems to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same building that he was in at the time he shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. Wait, yes; I think it was. I think it was the same apartment. They all look alike, you know, these new modern structures, and we would drive up----

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are not sure, it is better to say that you are not sure.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, on the second occasion when you were down there last August, how did--how did you happen to decide to go down on that occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, the kids had had a bad experience at day camp and were very restless and I thought I’d get them away for awhile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I called Jack one day and asked him, “Do you want us?”

He says, “Sure, come down,” and we did. We don’t need any reservations so we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Jack or did you call Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I called Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you lived at Eva’s house?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain on that occasion?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We were there about 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you visit Jack in his apartment at that time?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes, we did; and the last 2--the last 2 days we stayed with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we--he was going to drive us home to the--to the train, and we--well, first we were going to go to dinner and he was going to take us back to the apartment, and we were going to leave the next day, and instead, we spent 2 days there.

As a matter of fact, the reason we stayed over, Eva and Jack had an argument and he asked me to stay over. [He believed I might make peace between them.] He felt badly and, as a matter of fact, the minute it was over, we never did get to dinner, we went back to his apartment. He had me call her and see how she was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the argument about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, someone had called him person to person and she had accepted the call and it was for him and so he became angry and then, she asked him if he knew somebody, and he didn’t, and she kept repeating the name, and she sort of riled him up, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I myself would have become angry. She kept repeating it, “Don’t you know so-and-so? Don’t you know so-and-so?”

I can’t think of the name. He said, “No, I don’t”; and then, quite a few words and an argument. As a matter of fact, he pushed her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He pushed her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hurt her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t think he--actually, he practically pushed her out of the car. I was a little frightened, you know, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this occur?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was on the way to the restaurant. It was--I think it is a Thursday night, about the end of August. That is all I would know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he just practically pushed her out of the car; and then, afterward, after it was over, I stayed in the car because my luggage was there. Self-preservation is instinctive, and we got back to his apartment and he had me call her and ask her if she was all right, and--because she had to take a cab back to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you remain on for another 2 days?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think that was Thursday night. I stayed Friday and I think I left Saturday or Sunday. I am not positive, one of the 2 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were--when you were in Jack’s apartment, did you notice--what could you tell us about the apartment? How was it maintained?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it was a nice, modern apartment and I believe he had a cleaning woman every week or so. Of course, a bachelor will let things go. He cooked; he made dinner for us and he let my children help him mix up something. They were very happy. It is something I don’t let them do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he was very wonderful to them.

As a matter of fact, I believe it was that Friday, it was extremely hot. It simply was 107 and there was a swimming pool attached, you know, with the apartment.

They wanted to go swimming and I asked him if he would take them because I don’t swim, and I didn’t even have a bathing suit and he wouldn’t.

He said, “No.” He said, “Some child was drowned, I believe, in a private swimming pool somewhere, not too long before that and they--no children were allowed in the water unless they are with a lifeguard.”

I think most of these apartments are rented to adults and I really wanted--I said, “Well, you are a good swimmer.” I said, “You will watch them.”

He said, “No, I wouldn’t take that chance.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice whether he had any books or magazines or things like that in the apartment?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, nothing outstanding, maybe pictures of strippers, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Paperback books, did he have any of those?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. I--I mean--I didn’t notice any. I don’t think Jack read that type of thing.

I know he read this book, Exodus, by Leon Uris.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How do you know that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, because he sent the book to my sister, Marion, and she gave it to me. He bought--it was so wonderful, I think once he called just to tell us how wonderful it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he send that to Marian?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, a couple of years ago, I think, when it first came out. As a matter of fact, I believe I have the book at home now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very much impressed by it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other books that he sent you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, not that I can recall, but I remember that because he spoke about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you remember his calling you on Friday----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN (continuing). November 22, after the President was shot?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember approximately when that was in the afternoon?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I couldn’t tell--don’t remember exactly. I know it was after the President had--it had been announced that he had passed away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe we can reconstruct it by my asking you first of all where you were when you first learned that the President had been shot?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was in the kitchen giving my children some lunch. They had both been home from school because they both had colds and then, I suddenly turned on the radio about 1 o’clock, and I heard the radio say something, the President has been shot and I--I just couldn’t believe my ears and so, I ran in to turn on the television and I felt if there were any truth to it, you know, we’d be able to see something--see an announcer and really hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And it was true, of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then, did you hear from Jack after that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. After the President--after, I guess, it was announced that he had died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, the telephone records we have assembled indicate that he called you about 2 o’clock Dallas time which is--I guess it would be around 3 o’clock Chicago time.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes. I didn’t know exactly, but when the FBI questioned me, they thought it might be anywhere from 1:30 to 3 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that telephone call?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, I do, very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us--tell us how this call went. Jack--you picked up the phone and there was Jack.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was crying to start off with. He said--he said, “Did you hear the awful news?”

And I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Oh, my God, oh, my God.”

He repeated it several times. He said, “What a black mark for Dallas,” and then he said----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said, “What a black mark”?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; Jack said, “What a black mark for Dallas.”

Then, he said--oh, he said, “Maybe I will fly up to be with you tonight.” And I said, “Well, I don’t think that is necessary.”

You know, I knew he was upset. You see, my sister had just been home from the hospital with serious surgery less than a week and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva, yes. She had abdominal surgery and I knew there was no one to take care of her, you know. So I said, “Well, how is Eva?”

He says, “Oh she’s terrible. When she heard this news, she’s even worse.”

I said, “You better stay there. I will call you tonight. Be at her apartment after 9, and I will call you tonight after 9.”

Then, while I was talking to him, he said--I could hear that someone else was talking to him, and I said, “Well, who is that?”

He said, “It is the porter. There is another call for me. Alice returned my call.” Alice Nichols is her name. I guess he said, “I’d call her at a time like that.” He wanted to talk to people, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I didn’t keep him on the phone too long but his voice was, you know, breaking all the time. Of course, I was--I was no help because I was in the same--I felt terrible myself, you know.

And that night, I don’t remember whether I called my sister Eva’s apartment or she called me. We never did get it straight, but we did speak to one another, and I did ask for Jack and she said, “Well, he is at the temple. He went to temple that night,” and I believe he also called my oldest brother that night, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was Jack supposed--were you going to call back for the purpose of talking to Jack or for the purpose of talking to Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was going to talk to both of them. I figured he would be at her apartment that night and I could talk to both of them but as it happened, she said he left earlier to go to the temple.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to him in any way that he ought to take care of Eva or go over to see her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes; because I said--well I, you know, naturally, we both knew she had had the surgery.

As a matter of fact, she told us that while she was in the hospital, he came 15 times in 6 days and a woman, either in the next room or the next bed, said, “Your doctor has been here again.”

She says, “Yes, he has.” She never let on that Jack was her brother because, you know, having a nightclub, he would come in at irregular hours. So, yes; I felt he should stay with Eva because I figured----

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you say this to him--I am trying to find out if you actually told Jack that or if you don’t remember, say you don’t remember.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall receiving any telephone calls from Jack while Eva was in the hospital?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I--I recall receiving one. I believe it was just a day or two before she went. He asked me to send her some flowers.

I believe he called my sister Marion. He called us all, I believe. He said, “She was going in for surgery.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you called Eva, what did you do that night? Did you go over to Hyman’s house or did you stay home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I stayed home. As a matter of fact, Hyman came over for dinner that evening and that is one of the reasons--I don’t know whether Eva called me or I called her. She was going to call at the house. We called it “the other house.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I said to her, “Tell Hyman he left his glasses here.” He had been there for dinner. He had had some throat surgery, just been out of the hospital a day and I remember he asked me to prepare some kind of foods for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Eva say to you when--when she talked to you on the telephone?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said--I remember this. I felt--she says, “You know, I feel worse about this than when Pa died,” and we did because my father was 89, you know, and it [President Kennedy] was a man really in the prime of his life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I understand your testimony, you talked with Eva Friday evening and some mention was made that Eva would call Hyman?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she said something that she was going to call him and I said, “Well, don’t forget to tell him he left his glasses at my house.” I am sure it was that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We talked about this when I was down in Dallas and she says, “Don’t you remember I called you?” I says, “Well, I thought I called you.” Of course, we could check it, I suppose, to see who called who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the conversation that you have just related about Hyman and the glasses? This is something that you remembered on your own or did somebody have to remind you of that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think Eva reminded me. She said, “Don’t you remember to tell”--Well, we call him “Mess.” It is a nickname--“that he left his glasses.” I says, “Oh, that’s right.” I mean, you know, it didn’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, originally, when you talked to Eva, did you have any recollection of the telephone conversation at all with Eva?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I didn’t understand that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first talked with Eva----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when you later talked with her down in Dallas.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any recollection at all that you had--you are the one that called her or that you had talked with her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday night?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, yes. I knew I had talked because I remember distinctly the remark that she said, “Eileen, I feel worse about this than when Pa died.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the remark about Hyman and the glasses was one that she had to remind you about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it came about because we didn’t know who called who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you talked to Jack on Friday afternoon, did he mention to you where he had been earlier that day?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t recall whether he--but I assume he was calling me from his club because as I say, I could hear another voice. He said it was his porter. I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t remember what he said about----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of religious practices did your mother maintain in the home when you were growing up as a girl?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we weren’t too religious. At least, I don’t feel I had too much religious training or any training.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What training did you have?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I never went to--what you call--Hebrew school. In those days, girls didn’t. Now, today, it seems to be the fashion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We adhered to certain conservative Jewish principles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones in particular?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, observing the holidays as best as we could, you know, fasting on the high holidays. When we were younger, we did that more religiously than we do now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any practices maintained in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was, more or less, of the holiday or our Sabbath, you know, Friday evenings, Saturday; and naturally, if we had jobs and had to work on a Saturday, we did, although orthodox people don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right. You didn’t observe the Sabbath as the Orthodox Jews do?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother maintain two sets of dishes?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not--no; I don’t remember that. We had many sets, pieces of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your observance of the religious practices go beyond observing the high holidays?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was a special dinner as a rule. It was a little more elaborate, shall I say, and we did, in a sense, restrict ourselves to Saturday not doing housework.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, you are not supposed to do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you observe any of the dietary laws at all in the home?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we didn’t mix dairy foods with meat foods. Now, we would never serve milk while having meat on the table, you know, never do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is--that is a different thing from keeping different sets of dishes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in a sense, it is the same thing because one set of dishes would be used for dairy food and one set for meat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did your mother do that? Did your mother observe that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know, when I was old enough to notice, I didn’t notice any separate dishes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother--did your mother know how to read and write?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She could sign her name but she couldn’t read or write.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure she could sign her name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I seem to remember her having done that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent did she speak English?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you children all able to speak in Yiddish?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; did he speak English?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, better than my mother but with a definite accent. We spoke a great deal in Jewish to him, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you want to tell us that might be useful to the Commission?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I wrote you that letter about Mrs. Tice. Was that ever checked out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we have interviewed her and I am going to take her testimony tomorrow down in Dallas.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, are you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And about this Rufus Fayette, did you see that letter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know that I saw that.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well now, the night before, the Thursday night, before the Friday that Officer Dean’s testimony was so damaging, he had been released from the county jail in Dallas, I believe, that same day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fayette?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe it is Fayette or Layette. I asked Jack to--for his name. I didn’t want to ask any of the policemen, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. So Jack--that’s the name Jack gave me. He had operated the elevator there all the time during the selection of the jury and during the part of the trial that he was there for. And he called my sister Eva about 11 o’clock this Thursday night. I tried to figure back the date. I think I wrote it in a previous letter I addressed just to the Commission itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he said that this man who, I guess, he is a private detective or detective who takes the polygraph test, Sweatt, Allen Sweatt, had been riding in the elevator with him and Allen Sweatt said that, “Unless the State’s attorney can drum or rook up some good witnesses for tomorrow, I am going to walk Jack Ruby right out of this jail, because the State’s attorney has lost the case.” And it was the very next morning that Dean gave his testimony, if I remember correctly. I wasn’t in the courtroom because I was supposed to be a witness so they didn’t let me in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. So I found out--I don’t know how we found out that he worked at the Southwest Automotive Parts. I don’t know whether Jack found that out for me or not. I did ask Jack, and anyway, he did say he worked at some sort of automotive parts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We heard it was Southwest Automotive because that possibly----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you don’t have any information that Sweatt was aware of the witnesses--your suggestion, I take it, that until that Thursday night, nobody had ever heard of Officer Dean’s testimony? Well, you don’t know?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know whether Sweatt was in communication with the district attorney and had any idea what the district attorney might have had as--might have had Dean lined up as a witness for a number of days?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you don’t have any information that Sweatt knew at that point----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That the district attorney----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. But we knew--I mean I knew that Dean would eventually testify because I believe, previously, there had been something in the papers about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think even previously, if I am not mistaken, he had said that Jack had told him that he planned to kill Oswald--oh, and incidentally, at the hearing, April 29, for the motion for the new trial, this Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair from, I believe it is channel 8 down there, I think, station WFAA, talked to us and Tom Alyea said he had just spoken to Dean in a corner and he said Dean said to him--“I didn’t say Jack planned it.” I said, “Jack said if given the opportunity to kill Oswald, I would do it.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. We have already--we have interviewed Alyea and that is A-l-y-e-a.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That is what----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t recall right now what he told the FBI or anything but they did interview him. Did Mrs. Tice contact you or did she contact one of your sisters?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She called Eva’s apartment and I answered the phone. I stayed with Eva down there. I don’t remember just how long after the verdict, but she said that she didn’t call previously because she had been in an automobile accident and as a matter of fact, she wasn’t supposed to be in Parkland Hospital that Friday, you know. She had----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Mrs. Tice then; in person?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair took Eva and me out there because we had no car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. And they were nice enough to take us out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said it was Jack--she said later she saw him on the television and heard his voice and she says--she knows that it was Jack that she saw outside of Parkland Hospital. I believe I wrote you these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you talk with Jack about that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. We asked him once--oh, even before the--no, it couldn’t have been before the trial because she called afterwards, and he couldn’t remember to be very truthful. He couldn’t remember being at Parkland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He’s denied that he was at Parkland. I mean, not simply out of memory. He’s flatly denied that he was at Parkland Hospital.

Did this Mrs. Tice indicate to you that she had read any of the newspaper articles that had been previously written by a man who claimed he saw Jack at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know, there is a newspaper reporter----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Is there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who wrote an article, a couple of days after Oswald was shot, and this newspaper reporter said that he saw your brother at Parkland Hospital. Now, did Mrs. Tice indicate that she had read that article?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; she didn’t, but she did say that--that when Jack asked and--“Can someone donate a kidney or can a kidney be donated?” A man answered, “Yes, Jack,” as though, you know, he knew Jack. He said, “But what nut would do it?” And Jack said, “I will.” She thought this man might have known Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she have her automobile accident?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think she said in January.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did she tell you?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I’m not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why she didn’t make this information known before January?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe she said--well, the first thing, she didn’t even want her husband to know anything about it, even when she called me. She asked me if I did call; to call before 1 o’clock, because her husband comes in from work then, 1 in the afternoon and she felt he wouldn’t want her to get involved. And I--I believe--I am not positive but she never dreamt that the verdict would be such, you know. She felt that a verdict like that was so----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a woman did she appear to be?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe in her middle forties. I thought, when I spoke to her on the phone, that she was a little, old woman, you know. Her voice seemed very weak, and I thought she might be a woman in her seventies. I was very much surprised to see her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about her which would indicate to you that she might not be reliable?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; as a matter of fact, she told me that she had worked, or been in charge of the juvenile home down in Dallas for quite awhile, superintendent or something, some fairly high capacity.

So I thought that--I took this into consideration. I thought her a person of some responsibility and, as a matter of fact, I believe she adopted several of the children from there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She is married?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Wilma Tice, W-i-l-m-a.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that she said about her job at the children’s home in Dallas?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. That she had--I just don’t know what capacity she was employed there, but it sounds to me she was with someone--of the head of the department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Juvenile department, children who are abandoned or orphans who are brought there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you speak with her?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I spoke several times to her. She called that one time and spoke quite awhile, and I believe I called her, and then she called again, I believe, not too long ago. She’s called Eve, Eva.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did she tell you about her background of herself?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you how she happened to go out to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you whether she went alone or with somebody else?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I know that she didn’t want her husband to know she had been there. That she mentioned. I guess she wasn’t supposed to drive or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she have any children of her own other than the ones she claims she adopted?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t believe so; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she actually tell you she had adopted children?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet her husband?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I didn’t. We made it our business to get there and leave before 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say whether or not she’d be willing to testify to this, at the trial?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she would. She did. Another incident, Mr. Griffin, I can’t recall Jack’s cleaning woman’s name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Pitts, Clara?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Elnora.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Elnora, yes. I believe it was she. I don’t know how this came about, but we learned that while she was waiting to give her testimony, that he saw and heard the two--two of the doctors that the State was calling upon after her--now, I don’t know--I was trying to figure out if they were Forrester or McKay, I just don’t remember, to be truthful, that they were writing down about what they were going to say, and one of them said too, as a matter of fact, I believe we have a reporter’s affidavit or what do you call it, notarization--she gave a statement and signed it.

One of them said to the other, “You are not to say that. I will tell you what to say,” and these doctors followed her on the stand or in the not too far beyond her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t--she didn’t tell you what it was that they were talking about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. About what they were going to say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was no--there was no statement by them that neither one of them was to state that they weren’t--there is no suggestion that they were concealing any evidence or anything, is there? It was just a question of who was going to say it?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; there was--one made the statement, “You are not to say that. Here, this is what you are to say.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. In other words, he was changing the other one’s opinion or statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know what it was that they were specifically----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically they had in mind?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; but I believe a statement was taken from----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Pitts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Did Eva mention this at all?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know a statement was taken because I remember Eva said she needed $35 or $38 to pay for it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that your brother Jack made on the Saturday night before he shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I don’t. Someone did say--well, about phoning Al Gruber. I don’t know when that was, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that he made to a man by the name of Breck Wall?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; never heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the weekend of November 22d to 24th did Jack make any telephone calls to you other than the one he made on Friday?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him again after----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Friday call?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; that was the only one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; I don’t think I have any more questions. I will ask you once more if there is anything else that you think you’d like to tell us.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. There’s been so much. I--I can’t--if you can help me, you know, pertaining to something, I mean, of course, you have asked me all you want to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me then say that if there is anything that should come to your mind after this is over, you know, we welcome anything you have to tell us. We’d be happy to hear from you. Either you can write us or call us or do what you think is best.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. The only thing that does come to my mind--I don’t know--just--it must have been during the trial, when we were up to see Jack, because he said, “The policemen are lying.” I mean I don’t know if that’s--but he did tell us that. He told us that many times. “I am telling you the policemen are lying, policemen are lying.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you when he decided he was going to shoot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; no, no. I’m sure that he hadn’t even thought about it because Eva says Saturday afternoon he said to her, “We will go to Tippit’s funeral,” and she hadn’t been out of the house from her surgery, and she thought, “Who wants to go to anyone’s funeral. I don’t know the man even though it’s such a terrible thing.” He said, “Well, aren’t you going to go with me?” She says, “All right, I will go. I will go.”

Here, he planned that for Monday. He evidently--it had been announced that the funeral would be on Monday, but I am sure he had no thought of--and I say, when he called, he says, “Maybe I will fly up to be with you,” you know, meaning the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I discouraged him. You can’t imagine how many regrets I have about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; well, thank you very much.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You’re welcome.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Glad that you could come in and see us.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I hope I have been of some help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I think you have.

Mrs. KAMINSKY. OK.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE WILLIAM FEHRENBACH

The testimony of George William Fehrenbach was taken at 9:30 a.m., on July 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure in these hearings is for me, for the examiner, to identify himself and explain to you the nature of the proceeding we are going through and then to give you a chance to ask any questions before I actually swear you in.

My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order signed by President Johnson in late November of last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

The Commission has been directed by virtue of those official acts to investigate into and to evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Commission has been authorized to promulgate a set of rules and regulations and which I believe were mailed to you.

Under the rules and regulations of the Commission I have been given the authority to take your deposition here today.

Our purpose in calling you in particular, Mr. Fehrenbach, is to inquire into what you may know about Jack Ruby, but also I might say, generally to obtain any information that you would have pertaining to the death of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy.

I believe you received a letter from us?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us when you actually received that letter?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Sunday morning. The first letter. I had talked to you on the telephone, and then you told me that you wanted me here Wednesday. So by my being in business for myself I had to work all night Saturday night, and I was still there, I think it was around 9 o’clock Sunday morning the post office called and, of course, they couldn’t deliver the letter to me because the building where I worked was locked, so I went to the post office and got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask you is that under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have notice 3 days in advance of your appearance before the Commission, and I would ask you if you had not received that 3-day notice whether you had, whether you were willing to waive the notice requirements to go ahead with the deposition, but I see from what you said that you did receive it 3 days in advance so we are within the rules.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask before I administer the oath to you and ask you to answer questions?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you will then raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. George William Fehrenbach.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mr. Fehrenbach?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. In Ashland, Oreg.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. March 8, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Muncie, Ind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lived in Muncie until I was 23 or 24, I believe. I could be wrong now. This is going back so far here. It would have been later than that. About 24 or 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place that in terms of a particular year?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It would be around 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I left there and went to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Jacksonville?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in Jacksonville, Fla., for about 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go from Jacksonville?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. To, I went back to Muncie, Ind., was going to stay there for a couple of weeks and visit and then we were going to move on to Grants Pass, Oreg., but we ended up staying there about a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first went to Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. We went to Oregon, I left for Oregon in March, I believe, it was, of 1959 or 1960, I couldn’t say for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you arrived in Oregon in March of 1959 or 1960?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the year 1959 or 1960?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was a bad year because I was in Muncie and then my mother-in-law passed away and we was there, I stayed there approximately 8 to 9 months, and there was nothing to do there. I couldn’t go back in the jewelry work because there was already a jeweler there and he was pretty well established.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Don’t you remember how many years you were working in Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Bob Buckmaster for 2 years, and the Bates Plywood for 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let’s go back. Are you now self-employed, is that correct?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you run a jewelry store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I have a jewelry shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have a jewelry shop, what is the name of the town in Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Medford, Oreg., is where I have the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see; and you live in what town?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Ashland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been operating this shop in Medford, Oreg.?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I bought this shop the first of March of last year; 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, prior to March of 1963, what did you do immediately prior to March of 1963?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was off. I wasn’t working at all for about, roughly I would say around a year and 9 months due to an injury.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of an injury was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, my first injury was with Bates Plywood. I had a ladder slide out from underneath me and I just barely got to the place where I was getting around again and I was ready to go back to work again and I was bear hunting and I shot myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you on the ladder injury accident what sort of injury did you sustain?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I shot myself in the left foot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When the ladder slipped out from under you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The injury there was to the right knee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So, that would have taken you back to sometime in 1962, is that right? You say you were out for 9 months or a year?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Prior to this accident, how long had you actually worked for, was it Bates and Co.?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Bates Plywood. Let’s see, I had been with Bates, I went to work for them March 8, 1960.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, immediately before that where were you employed?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was employed with Buckmaster’s Jewelers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you employed there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Buckmaster, I believe it was for 1 year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have been early 1959 that you went to Oregon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I went to work for him, I believe it was in March of 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe if we can proceed going backward like this we can reconstruct this a little better. What did you do immediately before you went to work for Buckmaster?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was driving a taxicab in Muncie, Ind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you done that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I worked for them for about 6 months. It was the Checker Cab Co. of Muncie, Ind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave your employment as a taxi driver and go directly to Oregon or was there a period of unemployment?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I went directly to Oregon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Buckmaster, had you had some connection?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had a sister living in Glendale and she had said something to Bob Buckmaster that her brother was a jeweler and I had corresponded on two or three occasions with Bob Buckmaster and he wrote to me and said he would like for me to come to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time you were a taxi driver in Muncie, what did you do?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was in business in Jacksonville, Fla., for approximately--I was in business for myself but there again I don’t remember--it seems like it was only 1 year because I only had books for 1 year I believe it was or possibly 2, but I think I only had the income tax record for the business there for 1 year, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s try to make some computations here then. You went to Oregon in about March of 1959.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For the 6 months previous to that you were in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, 6 to 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which would take you back to the summer perhaps of 1958.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the year before that was it a year or 2 years?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was either a year or 2 years, I can’t remember, that is when I was in business for myself in Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least back until the summer of 1957?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Jacksonville, and in business for yourself. Now, how long had you been in Jacksonville before you----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I can tell you. I was with Underwood Jewelers for 2 years previous to when I quit and went into business for myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, that would take you back to mid-1955.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was with Duvall Jewelers previous to Underwood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That takes you back to mid-1953.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Then I went directly from Muncie, Ind., to Duvall Jewelers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way we can establish more clearly that it was 1 year or 2 years that you were self-employed in Jacksonville?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Yes. Now, I started in my own business in Jacksonville, Fla., in October, this I remember, after I immediately left Underwood. I had two Christmases there, so it would have been roughly a year and 7 months because we left Jacksonville, Fla. after I closed my business up, we left Jacksonville, Fla., then and came to Muncie on our way to Grants Pass and then when my mother-in-law passed away why we stayed over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So we might add another 7 months and this would mean that you left Muncie in early 1953 or late 1952?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe we will find it was around 1952 when I went there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The reason why I can come to this conclusion, I was called back into the service and I was in Green Cove Springs, Fla., that was in 1950 and 1951, and then I was discharged, I went back to Muncie, I went back to work for Borg-Warner Corp., for a year and I stayed there approximately I believe about 8 to 9 months before we left for Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What branch of the service were you in?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Navy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you been in a Reserve unit, you said you were called back in.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So were you in military service during the Second World War?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was from June of 1944 until June of 1946, 2 years, 2 years and 1 week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. June of 1946 you got out?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you a high school graduate?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have taken some work after you actually left school?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I took the equivalance test. After I was injured I didn’t know what I was going to do and I was going to go back to college and I had to take the equivalence test and pass that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which injury are you now talking about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was after the last injury, I went and shot myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hunting. How far did you go with your formal education before you first left school?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I quit school when I was in the 10th grade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would that have been?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1941.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would have graduated in 1944. I left school when I was in the 10th grade in order to go to work for Sam Jaffe. It would have been in 1942.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1942. How old were you in 1942?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was 16.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin working for Mr. Jaffe in 1942?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was in the summertime but I could not put the exact date on it or the exact month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So I take it you completed your term of school in June of 1942 and then during the summer you started to work for Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you began work for him did you work for him on a full-time basis?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your job?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was a jeweler apprentice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that involve?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was learning to repair jewelry and diamond setting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of a union in connection with that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any sort of formal apprenticeship training program?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn’t at that time. Now, I stayed with Mr. Jaffe until 1944 when I went into the service, and then when I was discharged in 1946 I came back, I went back to Mr. Jaffe, went back to work for him. I was there, I think a period of just a few months and then he got set up on this here training program by the Government for training veterans, and I believe I was with him for about 2 years after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you, in 1942, happen to get this job with Mr. Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a friend of mine, a Jimmie Tricker who was working for him, and Jimmie’s eyes were very bad, he couldn’t see to do the work, and so Sam had asked him if he knew of another young boy that would be interested in learning this work. So Jimmie told him about me and I went to him, and it worked out and I stayed with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jimmie Tricker the same age as you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was the same age as I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had he worked for Mr. Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jimmie had only been there about a week or so until he found out that he couldn’t see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1942 to 1944, did Mr. Jaffe have any other employees beside you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So from 1942 to 1944 you were the only employee of Sam Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was his jewelry store located?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The jewelry store or his jewelry shop, he didn’t have a store, he had a jewelry shop at that time, was located on Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson and that is as close as I can come to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How large a building was it in?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was in a two-, three-story building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What floor was his shop on?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a walk-in trade or how did he operate?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don’t believe--I think he had a few friends that would come up, but his friend’s was a business similar to mine, it was strictly wholesale, doing jewelry work for the other jewelry stores.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what business was located directly beneath him.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Lawson’s Jewelers were right below us, Lawson’s Jewelers, and then an entrance to the building and then there was an apparel shop on the other side but I am not sure of the name of that. It could have been, I believe it was, Roth. Roth clothing store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say you don’t remember whether this was a two- or three-story building?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was a three-story building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything above the shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, there was an union hall above it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What union was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. There was too many unions around there. There was an automotive workers union and the plumbers union and every kind of union you can think of. But I remember it was a union hall because they used to rent it out and they used to have dances up there. I think it was around every Saturday night they would have a dance there and they had their meetings up there and then anybody who wanted to have meetings could rent the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any other activity up there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Other than just the dances and the meetings and then this is the place where all the friends of Sam Jaffe and which were, to my honest opinion were, all Communists used to meet up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did they have any gambling up there in that union hall?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had heard but I couldn’t say that there definitely was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that they had dancing up there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I was working on Saturday night many times, we stayed open until 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Sam Jaffe’s friends used to meet up there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this was, for the 2 years I had worked with Sam Jaffe, Morton and Herb Pazol, and Phil Jasser, Morton Standt, oh, golly, there were so many of them it is hard to remember--several of the employees from the other jewelery stores, Lawson Jaffe, of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Lawson Jaffe run Lawson’s jewelery store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. He was the nephew to Sam Jaffe.

Then there was Roth, I don’t remember his first name. Then there was a Pritcher, Max Pritcher, Max and Harry Pritcher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They were son-in-laws to Sam. One of them was a son-in-law to Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Sam Jaffe at this time, would you say?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly Sam was around 55, 60.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that Sam Jaffe met with his friends up in this union hall?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, all of these people were connected with businesses around Muncie, and they used to come up there at various times to talk with Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the second floor, to Sam’s jewelry store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second floor shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Our shop was here and, of course, we had an office over here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We can’t see the motions you are making with your hands, this man has a machine.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The office adjacent to the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to do this. I will give you a piece of paper and a pencil and I want you first to draw us a diagram and we can perhaps talk from the diagram.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. All right.

Our shop is here, and then Mr. Jaffe’s office was here next to it. And there was a doorway here and our benches were here. The entrance into the shop was here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Would you want to write “Jaffe’s office.” Would you want to indicate somewhere where the street is?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This street was here. This was Walnut Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don’t you write “Walnut Street” on there.

Now, would you indicate where you, write in there, where you, mentioned the benches were.

If I can state for the record in words, what you have drawn there; you have indicated that there are two rooms to the shop, each room facing on Walnut Street.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The larger room, which is open to the public, has benches in it and the benches run along the entire side of the room which faces Walnut Street.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK.

Let me mark that for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.

(The diagram referred to was marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You started to draw this exhibit I think in connection with explaining how people would come into the shop and talk to him.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, the stairway from Walnut Street ran directly below us. It came out about here and they would come around this way and enter the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the stairway ran up behind the shop, and they would really enter from the back side of the shop, that is?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right, because this was on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. There was a hallway, I take it, on the back side of the shop.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And so that the shop was between the hallway and Walnut Street?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you say people would come in and visit in the shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, they would come in here. Mr. Jaffe worked at the first bench here and my bench was the second one here and they would usually go into the office but, of course, I could overhear many of the things they said when they was talking in there.

Now, to my honest opinion, I don’t remember whether Mr. Jaffe ever attended any of the meetings upstairs, but they used to come up and talk about having these meetings with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about particular individuals. What particular individual do you remember coming in and talking to him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was one of the main ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right now, what did Philip Jasser do for a living?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a clothing store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Philip Jasser in the store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. On the average they--three or four times a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present when he talked with Mr. Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was in the shop. Many times they would talk right there in the shop also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversations they had?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. None in particular. I was always taught, I mean, not to interfere with the other people’s business but, of course, by overlistening and different things they would be talking about the meeting and who would be there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a meeting did Jasser talk about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. At that time I really didn’t know what kind of meetings they were. I think--I knew they had something to do with Russia at that time. That is all I knew, and with the Communist Party. All of them----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that indicated to you that it had to do with Russia?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because Phil Jasser, Morton and Herb Pazol, Morton Standt, Lawson Jaffe, and there was another man, Shuster, and I can’t remember his first name, all these men at one time or another have talked to me trying to get me to join their party, to join the Communist Party.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who--let me get these names. You say Standt talked to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jasser talked to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the worst one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol had talked to me. They hadn’t said too much but they had talked to me at times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. And Lawson Jaffe; and then Shuster.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Shuster’s first name?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He had a Shuster’s Clothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else that you can think of?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, those were the only ones there in Muncie, Ind. Now, there were several of them that used to come from Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before we get to that let’s stay with the people in Muncie.

When was the first time that anyone of these men talked to you about what you called Russia or the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, and Phil Jasser came in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he was telling me how wonderful it would be if everybody made the same amount of money whether they owned the store or whether they worked for it, and I can’t remember all the stuff he used to give me because he would very seldom get very far before Sam would interrupt and make him get out because Sam refused to let him talk to me if he was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you get some indication that perhaps Sam didn’t even want to have these political talks going on?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I always had the feeling that he didn’t like it, because now they was more or less down on Sam because of the fact that they used to fly the Russian flag in the synagogue and that was the Jewish temple there, and Sam put up a very strong protest about flying the Russian flag and said if they was going to live in the United States and be U.S. citizens then they should live by the U.S. flag, and because of that it was my understanding, whether it ever happened or not, but I have been told by two or three different ones, I can’t say particularly who they were right now, they were even threatening to throw Sam out of the synagogue because of it.

And I know whenever he came up there or if he ever came in and caught them talking to me about getting on the right side of the fence and joining their party and attending some of these meetings he would immediately jump on him, make him get out and he would lecture to me for 5 or 10 minutes not to pay any attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of other young men in Muncie whom these men approached?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t. Not at that time I didn’t know any of the other young fellows. Most of them were all of the age of Sam. Lawson was, I think, about the youngest and, of course, his sons-in-law were a little older than I. I would say they was in their late twenties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps I should make my question a little more clear. Were there other people your age in Muncie whom, that you know of, your friends or what not?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That these men approached?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; none that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known any of these men before you worked for Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would indicate why they should have approached you about this?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no reason that I know of outside of the fact I was working for Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were first approached by these people did you tell anybody that you had been--that they had approached you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn’t really important to me at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you think now that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party. Did you at that time think that they were approaching you about joining the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they made no bones about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did they say that would indicate they were talking about the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now Phil Jasser is the one who talked to me the most and he was always talking about getting on the right side of the fence, and I had asked him specifically on several occasions what he meant by the right side of the fence, and he said well, he said, join the Communist Party.

He said, “Join us in this.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they know you were on the wrong side of the fence?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I wouldn’t attend the meetings, I suppose, I never----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time, who was the first person to ever approach you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser was the first one to ever approach me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This must be a, as you look back, this must be an occasion that you have some recollection of.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; because I didn’t know exactly just how to take it I didn’t want to jeopardize my job with Sam Jaffe and I didn’t want to be rude to the man, and so, therefore, I told him that I would have to think about it, and I just kept putting him off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say on this first occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the first time he talked to me it was about how nice it would be if everybody made the same amount of money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start that conversation with you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know. I was sitting there working and Sam was out, and Phil came in and he was waiting on Sam so he got to talking to me and asked me how I liked the work and I said fine, I loved it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a hardworking fellow?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I tried to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what sort of wages did you get at that, point?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. When I was serving my apprenticeship I was working for $35 a week to start with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a good wage at that time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I can’t say that it was a good wage, but I was learning a good trade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that you had said or done that would indicate that you were unhappy that you weren’t making more money?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about you or anything that you had said which would indicate, have indicated to Mr. Jasser that you might be receptive to the kind of things he was saying to you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Nothing that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead and tell us more about this conversation.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he would--there were so many things there, but the main point he was trying to get across to me was this fact of everybody making more money, everybody made the same amount of money regardless of who their employer--their employer didn’t actually make more money than the employees did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time did he mention the Communist Party in that conversation?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not at that time; I would say it took approximately a couple or 3 months before he actually come around and told me then that, now my understanding were they were all Russian Jews but he didn’t--I believe he called it the Fifth Party or something like that, and I didn’t even know at that time what he was talking about and then I pointblank asked him why was the Communist Party, why did he consider the Communist Party so much better than our own democracy that we had here, and he said, “Because eventually,” he said, “We are going to rule the entire world.” He said it is bound to come.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say, did he use the word “we” or did he say that they would?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, the Communist Party would eventually rule the world.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say the Communist Party or did he say Communist philosophy or Marxist doctrine or something like that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It wasn’t Marxist but it seemed to me like he said the Communist Party or the Communists----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be sure at this point whether he said the Communist Party or whether he said philosophy?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I can definitely be sure he said the Communist Party or the Communist, I can’t be sure whether he said the Communist Party or the Communist doctrine or what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Something about Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure whether it was the Communist Party, the Communist doctrine or the Communist philosophy?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And during these conversations what attitude had you indicated?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I wasn’t interested. They knew this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he continued to----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They continued to, just little different things that would be said. I can’t remember offhand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you argue with him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I never argued with him. Like I said I didn’t want to jeopardize my job there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would these conversations last?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Anywhere from maybe a couple of minutes to 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all occur up there in the shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they never approached me out of the shop. The only one other man that ever give me a bad time was Lawson Jaffe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody, was anybody else--let me ask you this. Did these conversations continue after you returned from military service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson Jaffe approached me one time after I returned from the service, and I can’t remember exactly how it all come about or what it was he said, but anyway he made some reference that I would have certainly looked a lot better in a good military uniform. He said, “You looked very, very silly in that Navy uniform.”

And that made me mad and I said, “Well, I suppose I should have been in the Russian Army or something.” I said, “That would have probably made you happier.” He said. “Well, you would have been on the right side of the fence at least.” And I said----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it who said this?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was Lawson Jaffe. That was Sam’s nephew. I said, “That is your opinion,” and I said, “I will keep mine.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present during this conversation?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Sam was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the conversations and all the rest of the conversations that took place up in Jaffe’s----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would always approach me whenever Sam was not there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. When Sam was there nobody said anything about this, concerning this, to me in any way, shape, or form.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have the impression that Sam Jaffe was not in sympathy with these people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had the impression that he was not in sympathy or if he was he certainly didn’t want me in there. I can’t say that Sam had anything against me personally because Sam treated me actually in many ways almost like a father. And I thought enough of Sam that I would have done anything for him. But like I say, he did get quite provoked on several occasions when he would come in there and catch them talking with me, especially Phil Jasser.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period from 1942 to 1944, did Sam Jaffe have any children who were living in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and this is where I got mixed up. One of them I couldn’t even remember until Mr. Mullaney, the FBI there, in Oregon, told me her name, that was Rosalyn, I believe, there was the one daughter that I had never really met. Marion was married to Max Pritcher. How you spell Pritcher, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Marion would you guess?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say around 28 or 29.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She was about 12 years older than you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I would say roughly that is about how old she was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he have any other children?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the only daughter that I knew of living in Muncie at that time. Now, where Rosalyn lived I don’t know. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was married to Seymour Jasson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Charlotte was living in Chicago and she was living with Seymour who?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Jasson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. J-a-s-s-o-n; I would assume.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody besides Phil Jasser and Lawson Jaffe ever have any conversations with you about communism?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Herb and Morton Pazol would mention it but they never--I can’t actually say. Their comments would more or less be made to the place where I could hear them but not directed. I don’t believe directly at me but yet it was put in such a way that I would have taken it to have been directed at me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that all of the conversations that you had with these men occurred between 1942 and 1944 with the exception of the one conversation you had after you got out of the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, after I got out of the service, that is when I got into the argument with Lawson, and then I believe Phil Jasser had, he had mentioned, I think on one or two occasions had said something about they had more or less after I had been in the service, they had more or less shied away from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first come to think that these men were Communists?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was in either the latter part of 1946 or the early part of 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, before this you indicated that one of them had asked you to join the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, you mean when I knew all of these men belonged to the Communist Party?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when did you know that any one of them----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That would have been in 1942 that was shortly after I went to work for Sam Jaffe, Phil Jasser spoke to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed the opinion then that Phil Jasser was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any of these men that you have mentioned whom you don’t think were Communists?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you have indicated you didn’t think Sam Jaffe was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Sam Jaffe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his son-in-law, Max Pritcher? Do you have any doubts about his being a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think he was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was always there at the meetings; whenever they were going to have a meeting upstairs why he was always there. They would all be up there in the afternoon and they would talk about being at the meeting at night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people attended the meetings that you are talking about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know; because the days or the evenings that they had their meeting, I had never been in the building, but I would judge there must have been quite a few from the list of names that I picked up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never attended any of those meetings; did you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what time the meetings took place?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I couldn’t tell you that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did they take place in the afternoon?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was in the evening, usually at night, anyway it was after everything was closed, after 5:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. How many of these men would come to your shop at any one time before these meetings?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Very seldom would there be over three or four at any one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would they do--what would they do when they would come into your shop?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They would go into the office with Sam and usually talk about different ones who were going to come and things like that. Whenever they got to talking about what the meeting was about I never overheard anything like that because they usually lowered their voices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when they said--what you would do is see two or three men come into the shop and they would go into Sam Jaffe’s office. They would have a conversation but you wouldn’t know what the conversation was about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, then upon what do you base your conclusion that the meetings that you think they had upstairs were Communist meetings?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, back at that time there was no actually secret among any of them to the fact--they didn’t actually publicize it, don’t get me wrong, but they didn’t deny that they were Communists, and Sam, of course, had told me that the majority of them were all Communists.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Jaffe had told you that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; and told me not to listen to them and not to pay any attention to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that his son-in-law, Max Pritcher, was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he said that Max and all of them, and he said, now he says, “I don’t think Max or Seymour will ever say anything to you because,” he says, “I have given them definite orders not to say anything to you,” and he said, “I don’t think Lawson will ever talk to you.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you don’t have any knowledge, though, do you, as to whether these people were what one would call card-carrying members of the party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; this I couldn’t say, at least I had never seen any of them with a card or none of them had ever shown me a card.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that these men were doing anything other than discussing Marxist philosophy?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t think they was--I think that is all they talked about. I know, one of the main things they used to get into the biggest argument about was who was doing the most during the war Russia or the United States, and Russia, of course, they said was doing everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to say from your observations that you don’t know whether there was anything more than a philosophical discussion or general discussion of political ideas taking place?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, that would be the only way I could put it because I never knew of anything else that they----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any information that there was any sort of espionage or anything like that going on?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you make the statement that, for example, Max Pritcher was a Communist, what you are saying is that he discussed with these other men the Communist philosophy.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. How so much better if they could get the United States to see their way, and I don’t know, they just didn’t agree with anything the U.S. Government done in any way, shape or form. This is, I suppose, one reason that turned me more or less against all of them, I mean, because that and the fact that Lawson Jaffe and everyone of them at one time or another ridiculed the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends or family about these people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. My mother knew about it, and, of course, I suppose I said something to my father, although I was--my father and I didn’t talk too much. He was never home, and I never saw him too much. And then, of course, after I was married why my wife knew about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any friends about it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you have never reported to any government agency the fact that you thought these particular men were Communists?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. How could I prove it? The only time--but I did report at one time, and this was after I came back from the service, and I went up there one morning, I knew they was having a meeting upstairs the night before because so many different ones had come in and apparently this must have been a real rally meeting because they were coming in from Chicago and several different places and this is one of the times, this was to my opinion, to the best of my knowledge, this was the last time that I met the man that they called Jack Rubenstein, and he came in with Seymour Jasson, and one or two other men from Chicago. And the next morning when I went back to work they had taken one of the chairs out of the shop and I had to go upstairs to the hall and get the chair.

The door wasn’t locked and I went in and I picked the chair up and there was a table in there. Well, there were tables down both sides of the hallway and then one across the front of the room, and there was a sheaf of papers on the table up in front where our chair was, and I didn’t really pay any attention to it then until I happened to glance at it and there was a list of names and to my recollection there were two or three sheets full of names on there, and I glanced at the first few of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe these sheets of paper?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, all it was was, I would say, typewritten paper, typewriter paper, similar to typewriter paper. It might have been a little longer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the names handwritten or typewritten?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The names were all typewritten. There were no addresses, if I remember correctly there were no addresses, and the first few names I looked at and there was Lawson Jaffe at the top, I think he was the first one, I don’t believe I can put them right directly in order and I can only remember the first four or five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how many names were there altogether would you estimate on this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There must have been 100, 150, three pages of them typewritten and how many names they could get on one page I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us who the names were on the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first one I can remember there was Lawson Jaffe, Herb and Morton Pazol, Morton Standt and Shuster’s name, and I can’t remember what his first name was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he was in the clothing business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was in the clothing business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a garment workers union that was upstairs?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or a clothing workers union?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe it was garment workers. The only one that I can think of that it might have been was the automotive workers union hall. I don’t even know why I think that because that is the only one that I can think of that could have been up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What industries were there in Muncie at the time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was Borg-Warner Corp., Chevrolet, Delco-Remy, Ball Brothers, who made Ball fruit jars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the automobile industry the big industry in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That was the biggest one I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any clothing manufacturers?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the electrical industry? Was there the electrical industry?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There wasn’t at that time; no, or to the best of my knowledge, there wasn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any heavy industry such as steel mills or----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; there were several factories but like I said most of them were all either making parts for automobiles or--there was no assembly plants there but it was all----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us any other names you remember on the list.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Seymour Jasson and Max and Harry Pritcher was on there, and if I remember correctly, although I can’t swear to this, but it seems to me that Jack Rubenstein was on there, sixth or seventh down on the list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that the name Jack Rubenstein was on there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, there was another man whose name wasn’t Rubenstein, it was Rosenstein, I believe, Rosenstein I had never heard of or I never met, I had heard of him but I had never met him. But Rubenstein I had met on two or three different occasions and when I seen it it more or less, I wondered at the time if he was actually a member, because he had never said anything to me concerning it. But there was a Jack, and this is one reason why I say it was Jack Rubenstein because I can’t recall what Rosenstein’s name was but it wasn’t Jack, and this fellow’s name was Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What you remember most clearly is that on this list there was a man whose name was Jack?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right; and then the rest of it started with an “R” and there was a “stein” on the end of it and that was as far as I got. I laid it back down and I got to thinking about it and I said, “Well, Lawson Jaffe, you give me a bad time and I will just give you a bad time,” so I picked it up, folded it up, put it inside my shirt and took the chair down to the shop and I thought I would give this to the FBI.

They were in Indianapolis and I suppose I should have called them long distance and told them I had it but I didn’t, and Merv Collins was the chief of detectives and also my wife’s uncle and I thought I would give it to him and he would give it to them so he was the man I gave it to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He said, “I will see it gets into the proper hands.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew about this?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He didn’t seem at all surprised. But he said, “I will see that these get into the proper hands.” I told him what I thought this was or what they were, I believe this was a muster list of the Communist Party that have been holding meetings here and I said, “I know this.” I said I have known of several meetings and they have had and I said I have heard them when they all come up that they were holding a meeting that night and I said I went up there and this list was on the table and I said I thought they ought to be given to the proper authority and he said, “I will see that it gets into the proper hands.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you retain that list before you gave it to Mr. Collins?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I put it in my shirt and I think that was about, it must have been around, 9 o’clock in the morning, between 9 and 9:30, and then I went out of the shop, just shortly thereafter because it was burning a hole in my belly, the thing was. I knew I didn’t want to hold onto it and so I made the excuse of getting out of the shop and going for a cup of coffee, I can’t remember what it was that I told Sam I was going to do, so I took it directly from there over to Merv Collins and back to the shop. Just so I got it off my--that is all I was worried about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when was the next time that you had occasion to think about the names that were on that list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, actually I regretted, and I still regret in a way that I didn’t actually take time to look, read all the names but I didn’t. All I did was look at the first few and seen who they were and now these were boys who had at one time said something to me or indicated that they were Communists, and so I just figured they all were. And I figured if it was given to the proper authorities they could investigate and find out for themselves or find out for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever inquire of Mr. Collins what had become of that list after you gave it to him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because actually, I don’t believe there was any law against the Communist Party at that time unless they was doing actually sabotaging or teaching the violent overthrow of the Government or something like that and as far as I know none of these men were practicing anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time that in the late forties and early fifties when the country was very interested in these kind of activities. Senator McCarthy and people in the Congress were active in this, is there any reason why at that time you didn’t make known your experience in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I had turned the list in, and so I just took it for granted if they wanted to talk to me about anything about it that they would have contacted me, and it never dawned on me, that Merv never turned it over to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in Muncie----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the period from 1948 to 1952, isn’t that right?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; 1950, 1950, and 1951 was back in the service at Green Cove Springs and then I came back and I was there for the rest of 1951, and I believe it was in 1952 when we moved to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All of the late forties you were in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a while in 1952 you were in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were aware of what information was being developed by the Communist Party in Muncie, at that time, weren’t you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period in the late forties and the early fifties when Senator McCarthy and other people in the Congress were very interested in Communist activities throughout the country, I take it you were paying attention to what information they were developing about Muncie, if any?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well now, for about a year and a half, 2 years directly, let’s see, that would have been latter part of 1948, 1949, and 1950, until I was called back in the service. I was working with Warner Gear and I wasn’t actually in contact with them so I didn’t know what they were doing at that time but I know nothing actually developed out of the list so I assume they knew who they were, and that I just felt that I had done what I should have done, and so if they wanted to talk to me they could have and I never brought it up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, has the House Un-American Activities Committee or any other committee of the Congress conducted an investigation into Communist activities in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to my knowledge; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during this period when the Congress was very interested in this, were you attentive to whether or not they were investigating Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I often wondered why nothing ever came out of what they was doing there in Muncie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am wondering why then at that point you didn’t make known to somebody the fact that you had information which led you to believe that there was a Communist Party group in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because I had already turned the list in and I felt I had already informed them that they were there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. You see this is what I didn’t know until just recently, that Merv Collins never turned the list over to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Mr. Mullaney said there was no record of that list ever being turned in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now then, I will also tell you this now. At the time my wife and I was talking about it the other day, shortly after I turned this list in, we used to have--my wife and I lived out in the country, we had our first child at that time, and there would be somebody, sometimes there was one, sometimes there was two or three men in a car, used to park out in front of our house and they would sit out there sometimes as high as an hour to maybe 3 or 4 hours, and very seldom under an hour, and we had called, my wife mentioned this the other day when I told her that the list had never been turned in, and she says, “Well, do you reckon he could have been a member?” And I said I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Collins?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. It never occurred to me, her own uncle, and I said it never occurred to me. She says, “You know, we used to call him and tell him these fellows were following you home and sitting out in front at night and he used to say it was just a paperboy, not to worry about it.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, who were the people who were following you home? I didn’t get that.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I had no idea, I never recognized any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would this continue?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It went on, I would say, for a period of, I would say 5, maybe 6 months that this went on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this approximately?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was in 1947 or 1948, let’s see, the oldest boy was born, it was and he was born because we had the baby and he was just a baby at that time. He was born in June of 1947, so it would have been from June on up until about Christmastime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that they were following you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was quite obvious. When I left town the car would leave right behind me, follow me all the way out into the country, down the same roads and everything and when I pulled in the drive the same car would go on past the house, turn around and come back and then park.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close to your house would it park?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, right in front of it usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was across the street?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Just, there was a barn lot across the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A barn lot?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; just nothing but a field across the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you ever get a look at these people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; every time I would--I used to get quite provoked at them sitting out there and there would be several occasions when I would go out of the house and go toward the car and ask them what they were doing, but every time I started out the driveway they would leave. So, I actually never got a good look at any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think these people were following you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have no idea, but the only thing that I can figure is that they--I had been asked, I had been asked by Lawson Jaffe, I had been asked by the Pazols, and I don’t know, there were several different ones, Phil Jasser, all of them had asked me at one time if I had seen any papers lying up in this office or in this union hall when I went up there, and, of course, I denied that. I didn’t see anything when I went up there. All I did was went up and got the chair.

“Sam can tell you,” I said, “when I came down I didn’t have anything but the chair, that was all I could see, that was all I was sent up there for.”

Then Sam talked to me on two or three different times and asked me, he said, “If you did take the list I am not going to tell anybody, but did you actually take the list or see it up there?” And I said, “No,” I didn’t even tell him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they indicate that list was about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. They didn’t. They would never tell me. All they said there were two or three sheets of paper, said, “Didn’t you see them laying there?” And I said, “No,” I never did see them. But they would never tell me what it was all about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was it besides Sam Jaffe, was it Lawson Jaffe who asked you about the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Lawson, Phil Jasser, Herb and Morton Pazol had asked me. So in other words, they all knew I had been up there that morning to get this chair, and that apparently they all draw their own conclusions that I was the one who had to pick up that list. And this went on, I know, for a long time after I had picked that list up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about that list which would indicate that they might have all been members of some other group that wasn’t a Communist group? For example, that they could all have been members of the same synagogue, it could have been a church affiliated group?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, there was nothing on the paper to indicate what it was about, or what they were members of. To my knowledge there wasn’t, unless it would have been on one of the other pages. Like, I say, I didn’t go through them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Sam Jaffe inquired about this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, Sam wanted to know, he said they are going to get a little unhappy with you because they think you have taken those papers from up there in the hall, and I said, “Well, Sam, I didn’t see them when I was up there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, don’t you think that--let me ask you this. Did Sam Jaffe indicate that he had anything to do with that list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He was, I think, more or less trying to find out if I had the list and if I would give these papers back to him he would see they would get back to them and they would leave me alone. I think this was the only reason why Sam wanted the list or these papers, as they kept referring to them. They never referred to them as a list, but said papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other papers up there beside the list of names?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I didn’t see them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, you were going to say something.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Actually, I feel if I had had them as rough as some of them were getting about it and as nasty as they were getting about it, I would have given them back to Sam. But I had turned them over to Merv Collins and I couldn’t give them back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never told anybody about it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because they were getting a little nasty about it, and Lawson Jaffe came to me and said. “If I find out you took those papers I am going to cut your blooming throat,” those were his exact words and they were getting to be quite nasty about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the people who were listed on that list, were they all in the jewelry business that you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, they was in the clothing business, in the jewelry business and Seymour Jasson, Sam’s other son-in-law, was in show business of some kind in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Seymour was in show business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. He had, I would say, it was--anyway they knew an awful lot of entertainers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you say about him, can you describe Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, he was roughly around 5′10″, 5′11″, and dark complexion, very handsome fellow, black wavy hair, curly hair. I guess you could call it, I believe it was halfway between curly and wavy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a son-in-law of Sam Jaffe who had red hair?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The only thing I can remember about Max Pritcher was he was short and fat but I don’t remember whether he had black hair or red hair. But it seems to me there was one that used to come up there with red hair but now who he was, I don’t know. It looked odd to me because I knew he was definitely Jewish, and he had red hair, and--but I can’t remember who he was or Rosalie or Rosalyn, I can’t honestly say I ever met her husband, in fact I don’t even remember her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two you remember are Marion and Charlotte?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you meet Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour used to come down, Seymour and Charlotte used to come down, quite often, oh, I would say in a period of once every couple or 3 months they would come down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you might have seen him a dozen times?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. At least a dozen times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the occasions that they came from Chicago to Muncie, did they ever bring any friends with them?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. There was, usually when they came down there was, anywhere from, Seymour and Charlotte, and then this Jack Rubenstein had come with them on three occasions that I know of.

Whether he had ever come any more than that I am not sure.

Then there was always--whether anybody else come with them or not I don’t know. Then, of course, there was this here blonde girl that this Jack Rubenstein, whether it was his wife or girl friend, who she was, I don’t know.

Now, those four used to be together all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any other people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t recall any of the others that came down with them. This Seymour and this Jack Rubenstein it was my impression they were very good friends. They were both in show business or some kind of business there pertaining to entertainment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there were other people who came down with Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, whether they actually came down with them or not I don’t know but I know usually at one time or another during the time they would all seem to be gathering up there in the shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t remember the names of any of the other people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, because I was never actually introduced to any of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you introduced to Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I was introduced to Jack Rubenstein, the first time I was introduced to him, I can’t remember, I was working in the shop and they were in the office working, and Sam called me in there and introduced me, and somehow he asked me something about cards but I can’t remember how it was that it came up.

Anyway, an ordinary playing deck of cards, and this Jack Rubenstein was quite adept at playing cards, you could shuffle the deck and hand it to him and he could still give you almost any card he wanted.

There were other things they had done. He and this blonde girl worked together. He would take a piece of paper and write your names, different dates, when you were born, stuff like that, and fold it up in four or five squares and then I would give it to Jack, and he would hold it in his hands and then this other girl would tell me exactly what I put on the paper.

How they done it I don’t know. This was----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that Jack Rubenstein was in show business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to believe that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he had told me--now this was in, I believe on his second time that he was down there, there was some talk about Sam sending me to Chicago to work with a man there, a Mr. Levinson. I believe the man’s name was, who was a diamond setter, and this was all that he done was diamond setting and Sam wanted me to go up and work with him for a few months to learn more about diamond setting.

Anyway, we were in the middle of the plans about the second time that this Jack Rubenstein came in there and when Jack came in, he acted very friendly and wanted to know how I was and this and that, and then we in the course of the conversation, why Sam said something about my coming to Chicago maybe and working for Mr. Levinson there, and Jack said, “Fine” he said, “when you come,” he said, “I want you to come around to my place, and anything you want is on the house.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Indicating that he ran some sort of an entertainment place?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. It was either a nightclub or tavern or something, I don’t know. I never actually knew that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I know Sam told me--he said, “well now,” he said “there you go; you would have to sit in the back room because you are not 21,” but he said “they have got peep holes and you can still see the show.”

I took it for granted it was a nightclub and apparently they had some kind of a show they put on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any--what do you remember most about this fellow whom you called Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The most I remember about him was he was a very nice looking fellow. He was very jolly, and he was what I would call a real character because he was always cutting up, laughing, always jolly, very happy-go-lucky more or less, so to speak.

And as I made the comment the other day, I made it, I think on several occasions, I thought he was nuts because he didn’t marry that blonde girl, because she was just about, they was two of a kind.

She was jolly, and happy-go-lucky, and I know, I was always under the impression that she was very much in love with Jack because she just absolutely idolized him. She would never get too far way from his side and never take her eyes off him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You refer to this man as Jack Rubenstein. How certain are you that his name was Jack?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Everybody referred to him as Jack. But now I will say this; there is one thing that I don’t understand and this is one reason why after this Jack Ruby shot Oswald, I didn’t connect him because I had never heard him referred to as Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How sure are you that this man you saw; his name was Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Being introduced to him on two or three occasions and it was always as Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been Rosenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, it could not have been Rosenstein. The Rosenstein they talked about, like I said, I never met the man but I heard them talking about was in Cincinnati, Ohio, or Dayton, Ohio, one or the other and he was a very close associate to Lawson Jaffe, and it is my impression that Rosenstein was a lawyer because I know Lawson Jaffe is the one who talked about him mostly and apparently this--he took care of legal matters or something for Lawson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you believe was the first time that you ever saw the man you call Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time that I remember or that I met him, the time I was introduced to him and showed the card tricks and things was around, I believe it would have had to have been in 1943.

I went to work for Sam in 1942 and I had worked for him quite some time. Maybe he had been there before, I don’t know but I don’t remember him being there.

At least I had never been introduced to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of 1943?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It must have been in the summertime, it would have had to have been in the summertime, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it then?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. By the way they were dressed because I remember when they first introduced me he looked so out of place because he had a very nice looking suit. We had--he had one of the loudest sports shirts I had ever seen in my life and I remember when he took his coat off it was a short-sleeved shirt and if I remember correctly it was a real bright red, and I know it was a very loud sport shirt and it just looked completely out of place with the suit he had on.

And that is why, was the only reason why I connect it with being in the summertime. I don’t recall them having topcoats or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is what makes you remember this fellow; his clothing, his card tricks, his girl friend, or what?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I think just his; like I said he was a real character, and he was always very, very friendly. Offered to take me out to lunch whenever he was there, and in fact I did go to lunch with him one time, in fact, we went, now this is what Max Pritcher was doing, Max had the restaurant on Main Street, and I was just going out to lunch on the second time that Jack was there, and we had been up there talking and this is the time we was talking that, about me going to Chicago, and Jack said, “Fine,” he said, “you can come up to my place, for an evening, you can come up there and really have a good time.”

And I was----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this before you went into the service or after?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This was before I went into the service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

So, this was either in the summer of 1943 or later?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Summer of 1943, the first time I was introduced to him and when we went out to lunch it was early in 1944 and it was wintertime at that time because I know we walked from Jaffe’s to the restaurant. And we had to put on our topcoats because it was about two or three blocks away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to try to focus a little bit on the time here. What possibility is there that it could have been before the summer of 1943. Could it have been in the summer of 1942 that you saw him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I don’t believe so, because, for the simple reason I say this is because the second time I remember when I went out to dinner with him it was in the wintertime and I know it hadn’t been too long that he had been there because if it had been too long I wouldn’t have remembered him but I did remember him when he came in, so I don’t believe it could have been over 6 or 7 months, and I, thinking back, it just doesn’t seem like it would have been too long. In fact, I would say it more likely would have been late summer in 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the first time you talked with the FBI about this it was your recollection that it was in the spring of 1943. Do you recall that? At least this is what they have reported.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. As I told them, I can’t remember, at the time I called them, I just couldn’t remember. I couldn’t go back 18 years ago or 20 years ago and actually put my finger on any definite time or place, and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think your recollection now as a result of this conversation we have been having is better than it was----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think so. Not only that but I have had a lot of time to think about this, and I am just almost certain, I mean in our conversation here that it must have been in the summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of which year?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were going to tell me, I think when I interrupted you, that the second time that you met him you and he went to a restaurant?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Right. Now the second time--I don’t know if this blonde girl was with him the second time or not, it seems to me she was, but she wasn’t with him when him and Seymour came up the shop or Charlotte. Yes, Charlotte was with him or came in later. Anyway----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you now; are you sure on this second occasion that he came to Muncie with Charlotte and Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he did come with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they had been talking about the trip and they had had some trouble or something, I can’t remember what it was, anyway they was talking about what had happened, and then also they was talking about when they was going to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were they going, someplace else from Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; they was going back to Chicago and how long they were intending to stay; I don’t know. It seems to me I would say it was 3 or 4 days that I seen them around there. But anyway, Jack Rubenstein and I went on to the restaurant, and we had lunch over there, and Jack paid for everything, and then just as we was leaving, why then Charlotte and Seymour came in, and then I went back to the shop and where Jack went I don’t know. He went someplace else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to come to the shop without Seymour and Charlotte?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He just walked in. To my opinion, he knew Sam quite well, I mean apparently they had been, had known each other for quite some time. So there was talk; I had heard them talking about different things that had happened before, and wanted to know how each other were and were referring to different ones, different members that they knew, or different members of each family that they knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in Jack Rubenstein’s conversation that indicated to you that he might have been in the jewelry business?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication that he may have been in any business outside of show business or running a bar?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. None that I know of. At least not around me there was never anything said, because to me he was always talking about his establishment, that is what he called it, his establishment, and said he had two of the prettiest girls working for him that could be found in Illinois or Indiana, and he was quite proud of them, and I think in my opinion also he was quite a woman’s man. I don’t know, just the way he talked about women is where I suppose I draw that conclusion. And he was something of, like I say, of a real dandy himself. I mean he was always very well dressed, always very neat, but, like I say, that second time was the time, in fact, I wasn’t even sure I wanted to go down the street with him with that bright red shirt; no, that was the first time, with that bright red shirt. It really amazed me that a man could be so well dressed and still have on such a gaudy shirt and I think, this is my first recollection of him when I met him, because anyway he acted--cutting up all the time and joking, and I more or less thought to myself, what kind of a nut is this guy. But now the first time he dressed quite gaudy, the second time he was very well dressed, and the last time I saw him which was in, it was either in 1946 or 1947, I don’t recall which, there was after I came back from the service, him and Seymour and Charlotte came back up there, and this time the blonde wasn’t with him, I don’t think, at least I don’t recall seeing her now, and he was very cool. He wasn’t the same Jack Rubenstein that I had known before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any explanation for that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I have none. I mean he was decent but he wasn’t just his jocular self, always joking and cutting up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When approximately was this when you saw him, 1946 or 1947?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It was 1946 or 1947. It was after I had came back from the service and had gone to work for Sam.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get out of the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. In 1946.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. June 21 when I was discharged. I was off about 2 weeks and went back to work for Sam. Now one thing that I hadn’t remembered or hadn’t said anything to the boys there in Medford was there was, and I didn’t remember it until the other day when they brought it up, actually, I don’t place any connection on it, he called me and asked me if there was ever any other employees of Sam’s. Before I went in the service I was the only employee. When I came back from the service, Sam had expanded, he had opened up, I guess I should put this on here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he had opened up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he open up something behind you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. A jewelry store; he was doing retail jewelry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating on Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this new store he opened up adjacent, directly connected with it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. His jewelry store came out here, this part was exactly the same.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you draw on Exhibit No. 1 what he opened up in 1946 or 1947 and then indicate by some sort of language on the diagram that this was a new addition and the date that it was opened?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The date it was opened I don’t know, but when I returned in 1946 he had it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Why don’t you say new addition by time you returned from service.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Do you want me to put retail jewelry store?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don’t you do that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because he was wholesale before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now go ahead with what you were going to say about that.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service he had this retail jewelry store and there was a lady working for him by the name of Marie Shaw. She took care of the books for him and done some selling, I believe. Sam, in the meantime, had taken another boy in, was teaching him jewelry work, and his name was Bill Miller.

Now Bill didn’t stay there very long, approximately, I think, if I remember correctly, I think Bill was only there 4 or 5 months, and then he quit, and I suppose this is one reason, I couldn’t even remember the man’s name the other day when Mr. Mullaney called me, I couldn’t remember the man’s last name. I remember it was Bill. But I had to--in fact, Mr. Mullaney called my wife and she told him what his name was, Bill Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. So I didn’t place any connection on him and that was the only other employee that I knew of Sam having.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was either Shaw or Miller working there at the time you found this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; Mary Shaw was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that you had found the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she aware that Sam Jaffe was trying to get the list from you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe so. I don’t recall if Miss Shaw was ever around when they had questioned me at all; I can’t remember she was ever around at anytime. She could have possibly been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed there when Jack--did Jack Rubenstein ever visit the store when she was there?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I am quite sure that she was there on the last time that I seen him. She would have had to be there--I am sure she was--because this was after I came back from the service and I don’t recall Mary ever taking a vacation or anything. She was always there, maybe once or twice I remember she was off sick but I am quite sure she was there. However, I don’t recall--yes; that is before, I was going to say the card tricks, I don’t recall her being there but then, of course, she wasn’t because he didn’t have the jewelry store then but the last time he was there. I am quite sure Mary would have had to have been there unless she was off sick or something. And now that was the time, like I say, that Jack was rather distant. He came in and he spoke, and that was about the length of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come in with anybody at that time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he came in with Seymour and Charlotte at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this before or after you found the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was after I found the list but I can’t remember. It could have been before, too, I just could not say for sure whether it was before or after I found the list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a matter of a couple of days or a couple of weeks before or after?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say roughly it would be right around very nearly the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It could have been after. I just can’t say for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any recollection, I take it, or do you, that Jack Rubenstein, that you saw Jack Rubenstein on the same day that the meeting took place on which you found this list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t think that it was on the same day. I do remember when I seen Jack’s name on that list, it struck me as rather odd because, well not actually odd either, I don’t know, I just, even though that Jack came down with Seymour and he knew all the rest of them, I couldn’t place him. He was so much different than what the rest of them were, and I just never connected him with being a member of the party. But now that I think about it, by seeing his name on there it must have been after I turned that list in that I seen him again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after would be your best estimate. I don’t want you to guess, I want you to try to give an informed estimate if you can and if you can’t make any informed estimate then we should indicate it.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I just can’t remember. I just have no idea. Because it was just, like I say, he walked in, he came into the jewelry store that time, he came back through the office, poked his head around the corner and said, “Sam, how are you?” He said, “Hello, Bill,” everybody else started calling me George, but he called me Bill, he said, “Hello, Bill.” Seymour and Charlotte come in and Charlotte come over and spoke to me for a while and Seymour, this Jack Rubenstein, and Sam went into the other office, and Charlotte and I were talking for a little while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you a photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Would you look at that and tell me if you recognize either of the people in that photograph?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. He is not familiar but she is. He is a little familiar but I couldn’t place the name on either one of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could she be the blond girl that you recall being with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. If she is she is a lot older now than she was then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you that picture was taken in the 1940--in the 1940’s rather?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it couldn’t have been because this other girl was, unless that is a very poor photograph, the other girl was quite slender.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet anyone by the name of Benjamin Kanter?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that is not familiar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you another photograph which I have marked George William Fehrenbach Deposition, July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, and tell me if you recognize anyone in that picture?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Now these both are very familiar but I can’t actually place their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He is very familiar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like the man you remember as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that man look like anybody you recall having seen with Seymour and Charlotte Jasson?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. To the best of my knowledge, as I say, I can’t place the name. He is very familiar but it seems to me he has been up there, it is not anybody that lived around Muncie that I remember of. But apparently it must have been one who came from Chicago. He is quite familiar. But she is not too familiar though, and yet it seems like I have seen her sometime, somewhere. But he is quite familiar but I can’t put a name on him. But it is definitely not the one I remember as Jack Rubenstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a person by the name of Harold Sugerman?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a man by the name of Irwin Berkstead?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The name is familiar but I can’t associate it. I can’t remember ever meeting the man. It seems the name, like I say, it seems like I heard of it but I couldn’t say where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Sam Jaffe other than in connection with the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think possibly Sam was a little unhappy with me when I quit because I had quit and tried to start a shop of my own. Several of the jewelry stores around had asked me if I wouldn’t start a shop up and do their work for them because they were a little unhappy with Sam because he had started a retail store up and he was a competitor and Sam always seemed like he was always very friendly but it seemed he was not the same Mr. Jaffe I had worked with before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of anything other than taking that list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. And he never accused me of taking that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever accuse you of taking a bracelet or any jewelry?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you left Mr. Jaffe, did you continue to work in Muncie?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; I went to work in a shop of my own and I was with Herb and Morton Pazol in their store in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked with the Pazols?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I was working for myself but I was doing their work free for the rental of the space.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you rent the space in the Pazol store?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say approximately about 6 months. It didn’t last very long because Herb and Morton and I just couldn’t get along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of your disagreement?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, they were too demanding. They thought I should do all of their work first and then do the other store’s work. I don’t know, I think Morton and I was the one that more or less couldn’t see eye-to-eye on many things. It seemed like it would take very little for us to get into an argument. One thing, I think Morton and I got into a row was he kept bringing all these here magazines and this was this newspaper that he kept bringing down there and he would leave them in my shop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of magazines?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The magazines I can’t remember. I know I used to throw them in the waste basket when they were in there but this one newspaper, the Daily Worker or something to that effect, and I was always complaining about him coming down there and he would always come down and nibble around my bench, moving things around on me, whether he knew anything about a jeweler or not, this is just something we cannot tolerate because we know where everything is laying on our bench, and Morton had a very bad habit of coming down and moving things and then he would always bring these papers down and we was always constantly in it so I just got to the place where I couldn’t get along with him, so I just quit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you move to after that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, when I quit there I went to work for Warner Gear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for them as a jeweler?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; that was Borg-Warner, as a machine operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Did you believe at the time you were working for Borg-Warner Gear or Warner Gear, that Morton Pazol was a Communist?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I would assume he was. He was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now this newspaper that he was receiving, was that some sort of, did it appear to be a Communist newspaper?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. It appeared to me because like I say I used to throw all the magazines in the waste basket and I threw a couple of the papers away and he gave me the devil. And I wondered what was so important, and I read one of them and here again this newspaper, it seemed to me like it was the Daily Worker and it was blasting the U.S. Government for this and for that and was running the President and everything down in the Government.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he was leaving these, he wasn’t leaving it for anybody to pick up? Was he leaving it for the trash collector?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he was leaving it for me because no outside people could come into my shop but I believe he was leaving them for me because he believed I would read them. They never said anything to me, after I came back from the service Herb or Morton never said anything to me about the party in any way, shape, or form. In fact, if I remember correctly, Herb and Morton treated me about as nice as any of them in Muncie, Ind., after I came back from the service. In fact, they were much friendlier than the rest of them were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The rest of them meaning?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The rest of them, the other people, acquaintances that I knew through Sam before I went into the service. Then not only that, after I turned that list in, I think this is one reason why Morton and I couldn’t get along because it seemed like even Herb it didn’t take too much before they would find some reason, any reason, to start complaining, and----

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you took the list from them, they still rented out space in their store to you in the building?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they did. Like I say that blew over, and then on, I don’t know, I could say that list was forgotten about as far as I was concerned, I mean nothing ever had been said about it for sometime and Herb and Morton continued to be, they were a little cool for a while but then they become very friendly again, in fact, Herb and Morton actually lent me enough money to start this shop. I had some money of my own and they put up the rest of it, and then I can’t recall what happened or how it happened or anything about it. It was something about that list came up again after I had been with Pazols for about 3 or 4 months, it was shortly after I was there, and then, well, I know Lawson came down here, and he told me that he frankly thought I was a no-good bum because I had quit Sam and went to work for competitors and two or three stores had started sending me work that they used to send to Sam, and he said not only that, he says, “I happen to know for a fact you were the one who took that list or those papers at the meeting.” He said “papers” and he didn’t say “list.” Herb and Morton were both there and it was right after that that they become very cool. Herb stayed very social but Morton, like I said, it didn’t take very much for him to get started again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that bingo games were held up in that third floor?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; they used to have bingo games up there, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Jaffes attend these bingo games?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Pazols attend?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any knowledge, would you know if they did?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I believe there would have been something said about it if they had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did the bingo games usually start?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I couldn’t say because I never went to any of them myself but I would say somewhere around 7 o’clock, because it seems to me we had worked late a few evenings and I knew when they was going on up there, but after it did get started we usually quit because there was so much noise you couldn’t hear anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the union occupying that third floor after you got back from the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. All I remember they said it was a union hall, but I don’t remember ever a union meeting being up there and I don’t remember what union it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was really just a big hall. It wasn’t offices for any union or anything?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was just actually one great big hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you know, do you recall, that they made some arrests up there on the third floor in connection with some of those bingo games?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; unless it would have been done late at night and I just didn’t hear anything about it. I don’t recall anything being done up there. I recall, it seems to me, to the best of my knowledge, the best I can remember, I think they finally stopped it because the ministerial alliance there was going to complain about it. But whether there was ever any arrest made up there oh not, I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam Jaffe ever tell you that he had an aunt and uncle who were killed by the Communist in Poland?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember anything like that?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t remember Sam ever talking about Poland. The only thing he ever talked to me about was the Russian people. He never told me how they lived or anything. I had always got the impression that he could have possibly at one time been an officer in the Russian Army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jaffe was Russian rather than Polish?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He was definitely Russian.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Or at least he had always said that he was. He was Russian, like he told me on so many occasions, he was Russian-Jewish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the time that you worked there for Jaffe in 1946 or 1947, were you working for him on a full-time basis?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him on a part-time basis?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I think whenever I worked for Sam it was always on a full-time basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Miller working for Jaffe on a full-time basis when you worked for him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. After I came back from the service and went back to work for Sam it seems to me that somehow we did split up there. I think maybe Bill Miller worked a half day and I worked a half day but if we did it was for a very short period of time. It didn’t last very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, was Miller hired to replace you when you went into the service?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed he was; yes, he was there when I came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he continue to work there after you left Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; he quit long before I did because after I came back from the service and went to work for Sam it was to the best of my knowledge Bill was only there 3 months at the very longest. And possibly not even that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we take a break here?

(Short recess.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that this fellow that you know as Jack Rubenstein had any nicknames of any sort?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I don’t recall anybody calling him anything except Jack. It was either Jack or Mr. Rubenstein and I have never heard him called as Ruby.

There is one reason after we saw it on TV it said Jack Ruby and I believe it was the day after that they came out and said his name was Jack Rubenstein, and then when--of course, they didn’t have a real, I never got to see a good picture of that, until a day or so after the actual killing, that when it came out his name as Jack Rubenstein, I don’t remember if I heard the radio, TV, or saw in the paper or what, I mentioned it to my wife and I said I knew a Jack Rubenstein one time, she said maybe it is the same man and I said why, I don’t think so. That was in Texas and this was back in Indiana and he was from Chicago. Then when they had a picture of him on TV, it was a pretty good picture, it looked very familiar. Of course, he was a little balder then than what he was when I knew him. When I knew him he had a full head of hair, and like I say he was, he had a good muscular build. He wasn’t slender. He wasn’t what you would say fat but he had a good muscular build on him and a very handsome fellow. He looked like the same one I knew only considerably older.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, from what you saw on television, can you be positive that that was the man that you recall?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; no, this is what I told the boys there in Medford, Oreg. I cannot swear definitely it is the same man. He looks very similar to the one I knew only like I say somewhat older, and I actually didn’t think anything about it at the time, whether there could be any connection or not until after they said he was from Chicago, Ill., and then is when I said I should call them up, and tell them that I knew a Jack Rubenstein back down there. And that he was, as far as I can remember, and as far as I know, and to the best of my knowledge, he was a member of the Communist Party at that time, or at least he was certainly thickly associated with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Really, but you don’t know anything more about his association other than what you have told us here at this time?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; I did not. I never got to Chicago to see him or meet him or see his establishment; as he called it. So I don’t know anything about his Chicago activities. The only thing I know is that he did come down there and it seemed like every time they came to Muncie, Ind., they would have one of these meetings, either the day before or the same day, and that there was also quite a bit of talk about this meeting they was having.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were these meetings during the week or weekends?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Usually during the week. Because Sunday I wouldn’t have known anything about it. It could have been on a Sunday--no; it couldn’t have been because they were talking about the meeting that night and it couldn’t have been on a Saturday night, I am sure, because we would work until 9 o’clock unless they was quite late.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you sure that Jack Rubenstein and Charlotte and Seymour came down during the week and not on weekends?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, usually they came on the weekend. It was usually now, as near as I can remember, there was only one time that I remember they came that there was a meeting that night. Usually they came down and spent the weekend, I don’t know where they stayed, whether they stayed with Sam or Lawson or who they stayed with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You only remember one occasion that Seymour and Charlotte came that there was what you called these meetings at night?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Seymour, that was the second time, that was the day that Jack and I went to dinner, Jack Rubenstein, and this was during the week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that there was a meeting that night?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Because they was talking, there had been several, I don’t know how many, up there during the day, they was talking about the meeting that night. They never referred to what the meeting was or where the meeting was going to be or anything about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that made you remember the meetings on this particular night?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. You mean the second time that I met this----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I take it----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was a meeting that apparently had some significance because there were so many people coming in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t the meeting at which you found the list?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what makes you associate a meeting, a large meeting with Jack Ruby’s or Jack Rubenstein’s visit?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, Jack, Seymour, and Charlotte came in that day, and then there was during the day, I don’t know how many others had come in, and some of them like I say were from Ohio, some of them from Chicago, Indianapolis, Indiana, and various parts, all over, and there was so many people, I was--people I had never seen before. I wasn’t introduced to anybody in any way, shape, or form that day but there was certainly a lot of them running in and out. And it seemed like everybody had to come in and say hello to Sam. This is why I say apparently it must have been a large meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know, where the meeting was held?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I assumed that it was held upstairs but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have any information as to where it was held?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you don’t have any information that there was a meeting on this occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of what they was talking about I mean when they came in, they said, why there was one fellow, what made me know the meeting was that night, they came in just as we was leaving, Jack Rubenstein and I was leaving, and Jack said something to him about what are you doing here and he said, well he says, I came to the meeting tonight, and this is why I know there was definitely a meeting that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember your eating with him, your being with Jack Rubenstein after so many years, what makes you remember your being with him on this particular occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I don’t know. At the time he asked me to go to lunch with him, I was under the impression that he was something of a--I never really affiliated him with the Communist Party up until at that time, and what he was it was his business; it was none of mine. Like I say, I didn’t think too much about it at that time. But because he asked me to go to lunch with him, I felt pretty important, this is why I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point though did you associate him with the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, I more or less, I suppose knew that he was because he was coming in with Seymour and all the rest of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you thought he was?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I thought he was but I wasn’t sure. I had no actual knowledge. I mean they never said he was or he never said in any way anything concerning the Communist Party in any way, shape, or form to me and the only way I do connect him with it is like I say when I picked up the list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Seymour about the Communist Party?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you talk with Seymour?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would assume almost every time that he came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with Seymour at least a dozen times?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t have any trouble picking out his picture, would you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No, I don’t believe so. In fact, I think I have already identified his picture twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think Mr. Mullaney had some pictures of him. The only thing about it is I remember him as Charlotte’s husband but I couldn’t put his name on it, that Jasson was the one I couldn’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he showed you a single picture of Seymour were you able to identify that picture alone?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There was one of them that I couldn’t identify. He had him in, it seems to me he was in a bathing suit. There was one of them I couldn’t identify and I couldn’t tell you which one it was. Anyway he told me it was the same man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think one reason why it was so easy for me to pick out this picture of Seymour the first time was because Charlotte was also with him. That was the first picture he showed me, Charlotte and Seymour both together, but then he showed me another one of Seymour that I picked out as the same man and then he showed me another one that I couldn’t identify. I think there were three pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 4. I want to hand it to you. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man in any way?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, I know this man. I want to say that that is Jack Rubenstein but it doesn’t hardly look like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why not?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, he is a little too heavy there, but he is muscular, heavy build, and it looks like----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about his features, looks like Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. His hair mainly and his eyes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his nose?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The nose is a little out of shape from the way I remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a nose did Jack Rubenstein have?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it was, pardon the expression, an ordinary Jewish nose but it didn’t seem like it was that big.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. And I remember him being as something more handsomer than this fellow here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. More handsome?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, this fellow is too rugged looking and Jack Rubenstein, the one I knew, didn’t look like a rough character in any way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you then what I have marked as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5 and I will ask you--wait, I don’t want to show you that picture, let me show you a better picture. Here is a better one. I want to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach Exhibit No. 6, July 22, 1964.

Look at that picture and tell me if you recognize that man in any way?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, now there again this looks like the Jack Rubenstein that I knew then but he is somewhat older here than when I knew him or at least according to the picture but he looks very nearly the same.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him is similar in that picture?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, I don’t know. His whole features are all about the same except he is something older. The hair is still about the same, although his hair is receding somewhat. It seems to me like I remember him he had more hair than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which picture looks more like the Rubenstein that you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think that other one you showed me looks more like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the two pictures?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I would say this one here putting them both together, this one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about Exhibit No. 6 looking more like him than Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. This one here looks more like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 6 looks more like him than Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Yes, it does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From looking at these photographs, do you have some doubts in your mind as to whether either or these--well, let’s take the man in Exhibit No. 6, this one here, do you have some doubt in your mind as to whether this man might be a man who is different from the Jack Rubenstein you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I don’t know when this picture was taken but like I say, it does look very familiar or he looks familiar to the same Jack Rubenstein I know only he does look older here than when I remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than that, is there any doubt that you might have that these two people might be different people?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, this man, I can’t see the body of him too well but he looks like he may be just a little heavier--of course, I can’t tell by his height there but he does look like he might be a little heavier than the one I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.

Take a look at that man in that picture and tell me to what extent does he look like the Jack Rubenstein that you knew?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. If this is Jack Rubenstein here he is much older now than when I knew him, much older.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The man here in this picture, does he look substantially different from the man that you remember as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes, he does. There is a vague familiarness about his face, but I can’t--I wouldn’t want to say definitely that was the same Jack Rubenstein I know unless he had changed considerably with the years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for identification as George William Fehrenbach deposition July 22, 1964, Exhibit No. 7. This is another photograph. Would you look at the man in that picture and tell me to what extent that man resembles the man that you recall as Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Well, it would be very hard to say because I never remember the features, like I say, it does look similar to the Jack Rubenstein that I knew only he is much older than then plus the fact he has got a hat on. I never remember seeing him with a hat, but--and somewhat heavier, much heavier, in fact than what he used to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. But I don’t know the certain way he is holding his mouth or is there some way that reminds me of the same one that I knew. He had a funny way of holding his mouth, kind of a--I don’t know just exactly how you would call it--a prissy look about his mouth, and that there picture there, the last one you showed me he is holding his mouth very nearly the way that he used to hold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, on the various occasions that you saw this man how much time would you say that you spent with him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time he came there when we had lunch, I would say I spent approximately 2 hours with him that day. We was at lunch. I remember this because I was somewhat afraid that Sam was going to give me a good bawling out for being late because we were over at the restaurant for about an hour and a half, and the first time I met him, I would say it could have been 2 hours because we was there in the office, that is when they were showing me all those tricks and things, and then the third time not over 15, 20 seconds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So a total of maybe 4 hours altogether?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you know on the occasions that you had seen Seymour Jasson about how many times would you say that you had been with him?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. With Seymour, I would say maybe 6 hours out of the 12 out of the many times he was there. We didn’t spend too much time together. I think one reason why I remember the Jack Rubenstein, why this name sticks with me, and I think maybe I ought to explain this, when I worked for Sam I was young, 16, 17, and I was always given the understanding that I was a young fellow. Anybody my superior that I was to say “mister” to, I was never allowed to call anybody by the first name.

Jack Rubenstein was one of them who treated me like I was somebody. He treated me very decent and when I said Mr. Rubenstein he informed me that his name was Jack and that is the way I was supposed to address him and he was the only one of all of them that I can remember whoever told me this. In other words, he treated me very, very nicely. And also I was quite impressed when he asked me to go to dinner with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This time that you went to dinner with him; what did you talk about?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, we mostly talked about the jewelry, if I remember, and, of course, at that time also something came up about this Mr. Levinson and it was my impression that he knew this Mr. Levinson, and he was talking about, he said, when I got there he said, why if I didn’t have a place to go, a hotel or anything to let him know and he could find me a real cheap apartment and a real nice one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about any political topics?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No; it was never mentioned that I know of. The Communist Party was never mentioned in any way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Rubenstein talk about political topics?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not to me personally, and I couldn’t, I wouldn’t want to say for sure that he ever did but I know there was one time when him and Seymour, Lawson Jaffe, and there was one or two others there, and they was in an argument about something, they was arguing about something about what Roosevelt was doing.

Anyway, they referred to him as everything but a President of the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Rubenstein’s attitude about it?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. He agreed with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was hostile to President Roosevelt?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes; he was--well, I don’t know if it was Mr. Roosevelt or not but it was the way the U.S. Government was doing in the war. What they was doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon--was this on the first meeting or the second meeting?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I am not sure. I know there were several of them there on the second meeting, the second meeting I had with him when we went to dinner. When we came back, I believe it could have been on the second meeting because this is the meeting that there were so many of them came in the shop there and they was all arguing and talking about it and then they commenced to jump on Sam Jaffe and Sam carried, had a large map on the wall, and he used to keep pins in it. All the moves, every move the Russians made and every move the United States made. He had a red pin for the Russians and I don’t know, a green or blue for the United States, and then I think he had another, the black pins he was using for the German Army where they were at, and every time there was news he would always jump up and go ahead and change his pins so he would know where they was at. And they came in and looked at his pins and they was saying he had it all wrong, and so forth, and so on, and they was going to change it and Sam wouldn’t let them.

This was actually, if I remember correctly, this is what really brought on the argument because they got to arguing about the United States wasn’t doing what they were supposed to do, and that they was lagging behind, and if they had a President of the United States that knew what he was doing that they could get this thing over with, go in there and completely wipe Germany out and take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were criticizing Roosevelt because they didn’t think he knew how effectively to conduct the war, is that correct?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I think this was mainly the drift of it. This is mainly what they was arguing about. But after they went into the other office while they was talking in there there were certainly things that came up about how the administration was being run, and there was, I remember something about some law that they had passed or a resolution or something, that they was all very concerned about, that they was all quite upset about but I can’t recall what it was they was talking about now.

It was something I don’t know now, what it was something Congress passed or what it was, and I don’t know if Jack Rubenstein entered into that conversation or not.

It seemed like I heard his voice once or twice, then like I say I am not sure. There were so many in there I couldn’t know who was talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Shuster ever associated with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I know of. I mean he could have known him and he could have been up there sometime when he was there, I don’t know. There was usually so many in and out that I never really--I couldn’t really say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Jasser talk with Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Phil Jasser; yes, many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Mr. Standt talk with Mr. Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Morton Standt usually came up. Bill Jasser, after Seymour and them would come in from Chicago, Lawson Jaffe was the first one to come up or usually he would come up with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you, Jack Rubenstein was only there on one occasion that you recall when they had a meeting?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And my question to you is, do you ever recall that Mr. Jasser talked with Rubenstein?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. Phil Jasser used to come up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did he talk with Rubenstein on this one occasion?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t know as he actually came up and talked to Jack Rubenstein personally but he would come up and him and Seymour and Rubenstein and Sam Jaffe were always in the same office and Lawson Jaffe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say all would be, as if it happened a number of times but there was only one occasion when you mentioned that Rubenstein came in and you had any idea that there was a meeting afterward or there might have been a meeting afterward.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. What I mean is when they would come up there to the office shortly after they would get there the rest of them would come in on various occasions. Usually when they came in they would spend anywhere from 1 to maybe 3 or 4 hours or maybe all afternoon in Sam’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, the first time you tell me that Rubenstein came he was only there for a short while, a couple of minutes, and the next time that he came you think he was around for a couple of hours, and the next time----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The next time he came in he was there quite awhile in the afternoon. This was when so many of them were in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next time he came in he spent the 2 hours with you?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The second time is when he spent the 2 hours, hour and a half with me when we went out to dinner.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time. I see. The first time he came how much time did he spend?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. The first time I can’t recall exactly how long he was there that first time. All I remember is I couldn’t actually say how long but there was several different ones came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now----

Mr. FEHRENBACH. So he could have been there 15, 20 minutes, a half hour, maybe an hour, 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people who visited Sam Jaffe regularly from out of town?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. The only ones I actually recall out of town that used to come up there was just his son-in-law, Seymour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know anybody else who visited him from out of town?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. There were others who came in but I can’t recall any of their names and they never came regularly, I mean never long enough for me to be introduced or anything like that that I could actually place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any salesmen who called on Sam Jaffe?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Oh, yes; we had salesmen coming in all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of their names?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. I don’t recall any of their names. I mean, this was strictly business and Sam took care of the ordering and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any customers who came in regularly?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Outside of the jewelry store we were doing work for; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t have any business off the street?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Not that I recall of. If he did, I mean it was something that I would know very little about, and as a matter of fact, he wouldn’t let me know because he wouldn’t want the other jewelry stores to know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you haven’t told us or we haven’t covered already that you think is pertinent to this matter?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. No. I think this is everything that I can remember to the best of my ability and knowledge right now. I know since I first told the FBI there in Medford about this that I thought it could possibly be the same man, the wife and I have talked it over on many occasions, and I have racked my brains trying to think of anything else that would be pertinent to it but I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the phrase that it possibly be the same man?

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Yes. I told the FBI in Medford that I could not definitely swear it was the same man but his facial features and things leads me to believe that it could possibly be. And I didn’t really draw that conclusion until, and it is like I told them, I couldn’t actually draw that conclusion until after I had heard his name was Jack Rubenstein and he was from Chicago and then when I seen the picture of him, and it did very definitely look quite a bit like the Jack Rubenstein I knew, only somewhat older, because well I don’t know, the pictures I have seen of him since he shot this Oswald, he has always been rather sloppily dressed and when I knew him he was always very well dressed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your--go ahead.

Mr. FEHRENBACH. Of course, he is a lot paunchier now than he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a number of years, 18 years have passed. I want to thank you for coming here all the way from Oregon, and helping us with this. We appreciate any cooperation we can get in this matter. I don’t have any more questions, and if you don’t have any more, why, we can recess, adjourn.

TESTIMONY OF EVA L. GRANT

The testimony of Eva L. Grant was taken at 2 p.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Grant was accompanied by her attorney, Mr. Phil Burleson. Mr. Ernest Conner was also present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again for the record. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

This is the second appearance, I believe, that Mrs. Grant has made before a staff member of the Commission, and I will not repeat for you the things that are routinely said at the beginning of each one, because I know you have heard them already.

I simply tell you that the primary purpose for coming back here again to talk to you is because we would like to get in a detailed form an orderly chronological formal statement of your activities on November 22, 23, and 24.

When we have completed that, I understand that you have a good many papers that you would like to present to us, and we will be happy to take whatever time is necessary to receive those.

I am hopeful we can get through the statements of your own activities in a fairly quick and orderly fashion.

So, if you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. GRANT. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state again for the record, your name?

Mrs. GRANT. My name is Mrs. Eva L. Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, where were you when you heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. GRANT. I was sitting in my living room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody with you at that time?

Mrs. GRANT. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get word, over the radio or television?

Mrs. GRANT. Pauline Hall called me on the phone, and I believe it was shortly--Pauline Hall called shortly after 12:30, at least I believe it was that, and said, “What are you doing?” And I said, “Nothing.”

She said, “Turn on your television to channel 8,” and I did.

She said, “Do you know that the President has been shot?”

I thought it was a--wait a minute, well, I did remark about the fact that someone is passing it around to make it look bad like you do hear some things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you continue to watch television?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I had watched it earlier that morning. Wait--I knew he was going to be in town, and I watched him on television on channel 5. I think he was eating breakfast in that Texas Hotel, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you continue to watch television before you talked with anybody else after Pauline called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, I had it on, it seems, most all of the time. I think that I went into shock or something, but I had it on, I think. Even if I didn’t have it loud, I had it on. A lot of times I have the picture on and the voice real low.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, think back to this particular day after Pauline called you. Did you go about your housework, or did you watch television?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, if I remember, I had just been out of the hospital 9 days, and I wasn’t doing anything outside of trying to prepare myself some food if my friends downstairs didn’t bring me something up. Most days she saw that I had a hot biscuit every day. It was something else, whether it was dinner or breakfast, or if she thought I wanted something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to think about what you did.

Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me ask you something. Do you want me to go back until the time I got up?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I simply want you to tell me everything after you hung up the telephone with Pauline. Did you sit in front of your television set until you next heard from somebody else, or did you do your housework, or what did you do?

Mrs. GRANT. This is what it seems to me. We talked about 5 or 6 minutes, and I kept on talking, and I may be confused about this minute, because I just couldn’t accept it, and it threw me off guard, and she said, “I will call you back.”

But we talked, and it seems to me he (meaning TV) kept talking about different things, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me a Federal man or security man--truthfully, I had not heard anything about the Governor. I don’t remember now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By “he,” you mean the person on television?

Mrs. GRANT. On channel 8. At the time, he wore glasses, it seems, and had black hair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pauline Hall called you, who did you next speak to?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me she was on three or four times. Wait a minute, Jack had called me, but it seemed he called me after 1 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk after Pauline called?

Mrs. GRANT. I talked again to her about three times. Either I called her or she called me. I wanted to see if she had news from another station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did all these telephone calls occur before Jack called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody else telephone you before your brother Jack called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, she may have called me--this girl’s name is Emma Collins, who worked for us as a waitress. I think she came in on weekends. I remember she wasn’t working for a couple of weeks, because I was in the hospital. It seems she may have called me during that afternoon. Whether she called me before Jack, or after, I wouldn’t put my life on that. But almost 1 o’clock I was listening the best I could to channel 8, and I heard this man say distinctly, “The President is dead.” I know I don’t want to even think of that. I don’t know what happened. I kept listening, and I don’t even know what he said. I don’t remember. Security, or the Governor, or I don’t remember anything more. I kept listening, and it seems to me another 3 minutes--even time didn’t mean anything, because, I don’t know, I just don’t know. He said, “It is not official.” So I kept hoping. I threw myself into a fit, and I have never done the crucifixion, and I don’t know which way is proper or correct, but I thought if it would help him, I would feel, well it would just help him. And he kept talking, and it seems to me he said, “The President is at Parkland Hospital.” And Pauline and I talked again, and she said, “I have to hang up.” She wanted to call some friends, or her daughter. And it seems to me I already heard--it might have been 20 minutes later this time, a fellow says, “The President is dead” [starts crying]. And it seems to me Jack called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant----

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain something. I have been very sick, and I was taking pills, which I showed Leon Hubert. No; someone came to my house recently, Clemmons--what is the name of that fellow? An FBI man and Hosty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hosty?

Mrs. GRANT. Hosty came, and I showed him the pills. I think there were 2 dozen originally. And I didn’t start taking them until a few days before. I don’t remember, I think the pills were given to me around the 15th or 16th of the month. I took some, and I had called Dr. Aranoff, and Dr. Bookatz. He was his associate, somebody. After I had taken the pills, I called the nurse, either Bloom or Blum or something, and I told her these pills put me in a trance. I am stiff and I can’t think. And she said cut down to one every 4 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you a second. I want to keep on the track.

Mrs. GRANT. I want to explain, I was taking these pills. I had taken one that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were taking pills, and that is when Jack called you?

Mrs. GRANT. No. I had taken one early in the morning and went back to bed, and I took one about 4 or 5 hours later before Pauline called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you before you heard this man on television who said he thought----

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he talked to me earlier in the morning. When I say early in the morning, it could have been 10:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you learned that the President had been shot, and you talked with Pauline Hall, did you then talk with Jack before you heard the man on channel 8, or after you heard the man on channel 8?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I heard the man first, because just as the--this is his word--Jack said, “Isn’t that awful?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack talking to you about the fact the President had been shot, or did he mention that the President was dead?

Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you something. He assumed that I am listening, because he had spoken to me earlier in the morning, and he said nothing about this ad. Don’t forget the ad. Even before this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We can go back to that, but I want to----

Mrs. GRANT. He assumed and I assumed that each one knew. When he called me, I had an idea. I tell you the truth, I thought he was in the Morning News. I don’t know--I thought he was. Did you ever have the feeling that the party wasn’t at home?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything you heard over the telephone which indicated he was in the Morning News?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, the background. I mean, like I have heard it before, maybe. After all, I heard it many times. I don’t say someone came and talked to him at the Morning News or announced themselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that Jack called you on an earlier occasion that day.

Mrs. GRANT. Absolutely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, about what time of the morning was it that he called you?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems it could have been 10:30 or 11, or 11:30. It seems to me still before Pauline.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you before you knew that the President had been shot?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; 11 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me ask you this----

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. We have a lot of daily talk about the club, and our conversation was mostly about the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first conversation?

Mrs. GRANT. It was about the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the first conversation, did he mention the advertisement that had been run in the Morning News?

Mrs. GRANT. He said about three words, “Did you see the ad? Did you see this morning’s paper?” And I said, “Yes.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, in the second conversation, did he mention the advertisement in the Morning News?

Mrs. GRANT. The second time--now I am going to tell you when he came over. He was already in a fight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not talking about when he came over. The second time he telephoned you.

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he mentioned the ad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was shortly after you heard the man on television say the President was dead?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had a telephone conversation which you thought was made from the Morning News?

Mrs. GRANT. There was evidence that it was made from there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything about the advertisement?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about the advertisement?

Mrs. GRANT. You know, I have never met John Newnam personally or over the phone or anything. I was carrying on so, and I said, “You better come here.” He said, “Listen.” I knew I wouldn’t be able to get through to him. His mind was wandering.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what you have in mind. I want to know what he said.

Mrs. GRANT. He said, “The telephones are ringing like mad.” He said, “People from all over the country are calling up and canceling their ads, big companies,” and this is what he said. And John Newnam did not put it in his statement. Jack went over to this fellow, and this fellow came to the phone, because I heard him say “Hello.” He said, “This is my sister, and she is hysterical.” I heard my brother say that to this guy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you with Jack----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you heard Jack say to somebody who apparently was coming over to the phone?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, you know, whether he repeated this in the house later on or over the phone, I know this, Jack, knowing my brother, I know he can’t control himself like I can, which you probably know. He said, “What the hell, are you so money hungry?” And the guy had said this to Jack, “Well, you know, Jack, I take orders from my superiors.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear the man say that over the telephone?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I heard something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it could have been something Jack said to you in the apartment later on?

Mrs. GRANT. It could have been, though I know he said later on, that he was so steamed up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did that telephone conversation last with Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, 10 minutes would be exaggerating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Might have been as little as 5 minutes?

Mrs. GRANT. Could have been. It wasn’t 3 minutes. From 5 to 10 minutes. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, how long after that telephone conversation did you then either hear from Jack or see him?

Mrs. GRANT. I would say now, it seems to me, this phone call came in about 20 or 25 after 1, because I already heard it, don’t forget. And it seems to me I heard it 10 minutes. Now, see, you can’t depend on my timing that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are not going to. Just let me worry about that.

Mrs. GRANT. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, listen, now, I want to find out when it was that you next either heard from Jack or saw him again?

Mrs. GRANT. I said over the phone, “You better come here.” And I don’t remember even what my last words on the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from him before you saw him again?

Mrs. GRANT. This time was around 1:30, we assume. You mean from anybody?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; from Jack now.

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think so. This was the last, because I had said you better come here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the telephone from the Morning News, your recollection is that the next thing was that you saw him?

Mrs. GRANT. Before 1:30, that was that call, and one other call in the morning. That was before 1:30, and we will say 11 o’clock or 11:10 or a quarter of 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after 1:30, when did you next hear from him or see him?

Mrs. GRANT. He came over, and it may have been an hour and 15 minutes. That is what it seems to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be as much as 2 or 2½ hours?

Mrs. GRANT. That was later. Now, he came over, because I said, “You better come here.” And he knew how sick I had been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he came over, did he have anything with him?

Mrs. GRANT. What are you talking about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first time he came to your apartment on Friday afternoon?

Mrs. GRANT. He had the newspaper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any sandwiches with him at that point?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, between the time that he showed up, going backward, and the time that he called you from the Morning News, had he telephoned you?

Mrs. GRANT. Not from that last phone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of his telephoning you from the Carousel Club on Friday?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did he telephone you from the Carousel Club between the time he called you from the Morning News and the time he saw you at your house?

Mrs. GRANT. Mr. Griffin, if you don’t let me tell my story my way--that is what this whole--I had told him he better come. I was sick. I was so sick. I had a major operation, and I felt I was going to fall apart. I don’t know what was happening to me over there. I just can’t explain it. I was operated--let me tell you--on November the 7th, so you figure, and the other doctors know about what happened.

He came over and he didn’t stay long. It seems to me he stayed 5 minutes or 8 minutes or 10 minutes. He did not stay a half-hour. He said, “What do you want?” I said, “Will you get something from the delicatessen?” And he said, “I have to go back to the club.” He said. “Well, did you read it?” And I said, “Yes.” He left.

Now, I assume he called me from the Carousel, and I actually assume it was about an hour later, maybe, or even an hour and a half. So, I said, “When are you coming?” And he said, “Well, I will go over to Phil’s Delicatessen.” And I said, “Where are you?” And he said, “I am downtown.” And I said, “Listen, I would rather you went to the Ritz,” which is down the street. They have better food. They have fresher and better variety. He said, “I am coming right over.” His “right over” came, I would say it was, after 4 o’clock. Maybe a quarter of 5. Maybe it was 5. Maybe it was even 5:15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could have been as late as 5:30 or 6?

Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t after 5:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think this?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, we were waiting for the 6 o’clock news, and it seems to me that there wasn’t enough news on there. But as a rule, as little as I stay home to listen, I know there is a 6 o’clock news. By that time I heard already a policeman was shot, and he probably heard it where he was. And I remember watching television, and that afternoon it seems to me this man was Curry, said we got the right man. He had three draft cards and a bunch of stuff. He defected. That is what it seems to me in my mind. If I could get the tape. And I was still tuned to channel 8.

Jack came in with enough food----

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I understand you correctly, when he came to your house at 2:30, at that time you mentioned to him to get some food?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then he went down to the club and called you from the club, and again you mentioned to him to get the food?

Mrs. GRANT. Because he called me to see how I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had lunch that day?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, you can’t call it--because my breakfast is coffee and cookies or something light. The neighbor could have brought me up a sweet roll. Her name is Betty Goodman. She has done things like that, and has been very kind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else at your apartment when Jack came back the next time?

Mrs. GRANT. Unless it was Betty. I am sure she came when I started screaming over the telephone, “The President is dead.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call her on the telephone to tell her?

Mrs. GRANT. No; Pauline Hall called her and said I am having a fit or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did Mrs. Goodman come up to your apartment?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; she was up much earlier. She came up, I think it was, 10 o’clock. That is how I got the paper, because I don’t get the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Pauline Hall called and said you were having a fit, did she come up again?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; she stayed, and well, she thinks I am very emotional or something wrong. She is of a different temperament, and she said, “Do you think you will be all right?” Now, after that, my brother came up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Mrs. Goodman came up to your apartment after you learned that the President had died?

Mrs. GRANT. Sometime; I would say, very shortly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain?

Mrs. GRANT. Not too long. I think 5 minutes. Five minutes or 7 minutes. You know, not long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after Mrs. Goodman, did Jack arrive?

Mrs. GRANT. This is the first time you are talking about? It could have been an hour. It could have been 40 minutes. It wasn’t 3 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been 2 hours?

Mrs. GRANT. I think it was a terrible day. How could anyone--I mean I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you can’t remember?

Mrs. GRANT. Listen; that was not a normal day. First of all, I wasn’t watching the clock. I wasn’t watching for anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack came back to your apartment the second time, what did he have with him?

Mrs. GRANT. Enough groceries for 20 people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he have? How many grocery bags did he have?

Mrs. GRANT. He went down to the car to get another load of it. You figure it out. Six big bottles of pop, or whatever you call it. A pound of corned beef. A pound of tongue. He had four meats, a pound of each.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have----

Mrs. GRANT. A pound of lox, which is smoked salmon, and some smoked fish, and he bought onions and oranges and a variety of six different kinds of cakes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they things that he would have gotten at the Ritz Delicatessen?

Mrs. GRANT. All but the vegetables. He bought vegetables and fruit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you where he got those?

Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have a grocery store that you regularly shopped at?

Mrs. GRANT. He liked the Safeway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a Safeway somewhere near the Carousel or between the Carousel and your place?

Mrs. GRANT. There is one on Lemmon Avenue not too far from Oak Lawn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of that store; do you know?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I live in that neighborhood. I don’t think he ever lived in that neighborhood. I don’t know where he could have gotten it. I knew where the cakes and things come from because this particular place makes or handles several.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the cakes come from?

Mrs. GRANT. They have little biscuits, and their rye bread is entirely different than any place in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the cakes come from?

Mrs. GRANT. From the Ritz Delicatessen. They carry stuff like that to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that you noticed that he brought back that you could identify with any other store?

Mrs. GRANT. He had a newspaper, the Times Herald. Had “The President is dead.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain in your apartment on that occasion?

Mrs. GRANT. I know it was around 7:15 or 7:20 when he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long?

Mrs. GRANT. I would say a good 2 hours. Maybe 2½ hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he receive any telephone calls?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let’s try to think about how you are going to organize this, because I want to take it chronologically.

Mrs. GRANT. I am sorry if I am confusing you, because that day wasn’t exactly a good day for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you start to talk, try to think a little bit about what you are going to say. He got some telephone calls and he made some?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, try to think about who he called first, or who he heard from first, and how things progressed.

Mrs. GRANT. He wasn’t at the house 10 minutes or 15 minutes or 20 minutes at the top, and he was on the phone. I think it was Andy. I am going to tell you this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think it was him?

Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t answer the phone. He wanted the scrambled eggs and lox.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mrs. GRANT. My brother Jack. And I heard the conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear?

Mrs. GRANT. “Didn’t you get a number from him?” “Yes; I got it.” And he said, “Call me back if you find the number.”

May I say something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.

Mrs. GRANT. I bawled my brother out for buying so much food. And he said, “That is not much.” And I know it was at least enough, not exaggerating, to feed 12 people, but he didn’t know what he was doing then. I said, “I bet you spent $25.”

And he said, “No; only $22.”

Well, it was no sense of making discussion. I said, “Now, you are going to take some of this stuff for you and George. Don’t leave it around here.” And I said I didn’t feel like eating, and he said, “I don’t feel like eating either.” And I said, “You better eat,” because he hadn’t had anything since early in the morning. And I said, “What do you want?” And he said “Some scrambled eggs.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you where he ate breakfast that morning?

Mrs. GRANT. No; haven’t the least idea. Andy called back, and he ran. He was practically in the bathroom. I have a very small apartment. If you want to take a diagram--you can practically carry your phone in there and close the door and still hear. And he ran to the phone. He knew I was busy. I was moving around very slow, not in my normal speed or stride. If it was only 4 feet, I wasn’t trying--I did better than a lot of other people, but he took a number down and he called this number and said, “Jack Ruby.” I heard something, but I don’t know. I mean, he said, “Yes, I am closing tonight.” I don’t know what the other guy said. But Jack had told me this after he hung up. Now, this may have been the first conversation or the second. Seems to me he talked to him twice. I mean, I am just assuming this.

Jack said, “You know the Cabana and the Century Room are closing, but the rest of the clubs aren’t closing.” Or something to that effect that other clubs weren’t closing. Whichever ones they were, I don’t remember that he mentioned. But he mentioned the two that were closing. I don’t know what went on in regard to all the clubs and things, but Jack says this, he wants to know, and he was sitting there, and that is when I could see there was something wrong, but I couldn’t detect what was wrong.

He became really a very broken man, but you see, I figure everybody looked and acted like he did, and I not being out, I don’t know what other people outside of Pauline or the other people that called. He said, “Don wants me to call him and let him know if I am going to be open.” And this is almost the exact words he said, as much as I remember. And he said, “Listen, we are broke anyway, so I will be a broken millionaire. I am going to close for 3 days.” I heard him go back to the phone. By then I was in the bedroom for Kleenex or something. He went back and dialed. I don’t know who he talked to. And he says, well, this is what I heard him tell, “Don’t tell the Weinsteins that I am closing, Don.” He said, “Yes, I want to be closed.” And he seemed to be, when he come out, we talked a little bit about our family and things. I said, “Call the printing room.” Of course, I am not familiar, though I shouldn’t say this, I have heard it a million times--I am not familiar with the newspaper although I have been there many times with him. I said, “You better cancel your ad.” He said, “Well, I am going to cancel the ad for 3 days.”

Truthfully, he tried to cancel the ad, but they said they held the space for him. I don’t know which paper it was. He said, “This is Jack Ruby.” The other guy knew him. Oh, no, he mentioned the composing room. He said composing room. He said, “This is Jack Ruby. Do me a favor. Listen, use my space and say, closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” Then he waited.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here, and not because--you are doing very well.

Mrs. GRANT. I am trying to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: You made the statement that Jack initially called simply to cancel the space?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Andy called our house. Listen to me. Andy told him Don called. Jack bawled him out why he didn’t have the number, and he says, “I will get the number.” But we have about five phones in the place of business. Andy must have went to the other part of the club to get the number, and he called back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I got that. What I am referring to is after Don Safran called him, and you and he talked and you said, “Jack, you better call the printing room,” and then he made the telephone call. And I think you indicated that Jack said, “I want to cancel my ad.” That Jack’s original thought was to cancel the ad, not to use the space.

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you remember was said that indicated this to you that makes you remember?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me, and I was sitting right next to him on the couch, and the way my place is, there was a little white table, and there is a telephone there, and it seems to me he said, “I would like to cancel,” and the guy says, “Well,”----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you couldn’t hear the man on the other end?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I assumed the ad was already paid for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead. What else happened in that telephone call?

Mrs. GRANT. As I said, “You better call the printing room,” or, “Did you call the printing room?” Or something. Jack said he knew the department better than I did. At least he was thinking a little better. He said, “You mean the composing room. The fellow there knows me real well.” And Jack said, “Tom,” something, and he said, “Well, put in closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.” But I want to explain something here. He made two calls like that. And from what Jack told me later on, he said, well, the first edition, it will be out, like Friday night, the space and wording is in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What newspaper did he call from your house that afternoon?

Mrs. GRANT. He called both of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And after he made those telephone calls, what did he do?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, he tried to eat. By now, the eggs were cool. He took a spoonful or fork full and went back to the phone. And he took this phone into the bedroom, and it seems to me he called Alice Nichols, because, you know, that is the girl he was engaged to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt. Do you have a recollection of his making a telephone call to Alice Nichols from your house?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me it was that day or the next day, but I think it was that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me--I am going to keep this in mind--let me ask you some other questions before we get to Alice Nichols. When he brought the sandwiches and so forth----

Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, he didn’t have any made up sandwiches from the Ritz Delicatessen?

Mrs. GRANT. No. When he brings stuff for me, he don’t usually do it that way, or for us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember his making any telephone calls to inquire about the synagogue?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make that telephone call before or after he called about canceling the ads?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the call to the synagogue was later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after he talked to Alice Nichols?

Mrs. GRANT. Seems to me that it was later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which was later, the call to the synagogue?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the call to the synagogue was later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next thing you remember his doing is talking to Alice Nichols?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this, Mr. Griffin. Did you ever feel--this girl and him, there had been a very fine relationship, respectable, but I have noticed in the past, and I think I have heard this name for 15 years, and in this time they were engaged--that during tragic days or something very exhilarating, he called Alice Nichols. And when my brother talked to her, it is sort of a secret. He took the phone into the bedroom, and I had all reason to believe, and believe me I did not hear anything mentioned like “Alice,” or “Dear,” or “Honey.” I had a feeling he was talking to Alice Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you feel that?

Mrs. GRANT. I couldn’t help it. There was something about when he talked to her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything that was said in that conversation?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know whether this is in the back of my mind or knowing him, or whether I actually heard him saying something to her, but I have all reason to believe that was the first call, because he jumped up from his eating, I told you, for each call, and as it was, he didn’t eat. He ate less than a third than he normally eats. I don’t know if I am imagining this. I mean this is a terrible thing to say, but there was something in his voice, or I may have heard, at least it is in the back of my mind, that he talked to her. I may have even heard her name, but I don’t want to say. Later on that same night we talked about her, and this is what bothers me. Whether it is in the back of my mind he told me that, or did I hear him say, “Alice, it is Jack.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him make some telephone calls about going to the synagogue?

Mrs. GRANT. I sure did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that. Let me stop just to get the place and time. About how long after he made the telephone calls concerning the cancellation of the ad did you hear a call about the synagogue?

Mrs. GRANT. Maybe an hour or 45 minutes. He walked up and back a couple of times. He took the phone in the bedroom. He made another call in there, and I want to tell you what I heard him say. This I heard him, “I am sorry I am calling you so late.” I didn’t hear too much of their other conversation, but he said, “Say hello to Jean.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jean?

Mrs. GRANT. This girl is named Jean Hamblen. She is married to Cecil Hamblen. They have one little child. Now, this could have been around 6:30. He had already been to the table three or four times. I remember Andy called twice. I remember Don--oh, wait a minute, I told you about Don. He called twice, didn’t he?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. GRANT. Okay, I know he called the composing room. Wait a minute, when Andy called, and Andy called back, and he called Don, now it seems to me that he already talked to Alice Nichols. I mean it may have been before Andy called, and he wasn’t in the house too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he had already talked to Alice Nichols?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I think he used the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or had he mentioned to you that he had already talked to her earlier in the day?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I heard that too, but that would be nothing to him. I know it would sound crazy. My brother has called me when I am not sick five times a day. I mean, there are times, it is not an everyday occurrence, but there has been times, but it seems to me he said he had called her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he remain?

Mrs. GRANT. I am going to be honest about this. Alice is a very cold person. A very fine person, but I could never get to talk to her as even to this day, and I have known her for years.

I never sort of pushed conversation like, “How is she, what is she doing.” Yet I knew he had a great liking for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated earlier that he had been engaged to her. Was that actually a formal engagement?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes. He gave her a ring.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after he talked with Cecil Hamblen, did he make any other phone calls, that you remember?

Mrs. GRANT. Then it seems he called Dr. Jacobson, Coleman Jacobson, who attended the same synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can help you with this. Do you recall Jack saying in the telephone call to the doctor--well, do you recall after Jack made the telephone call to Dr. Jacobson that Jack actually called the synagogue?

Mrs. GRANT. He either did one or the other, but he did call both. You understand the whole deal, I got to tell you this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mrs. GRANT. Dr. Coleman Jacobson and Stanley Kaufman are supposed to be his friends and they used to bawl Jack out that he didn’t come Friday night, which was the thing to do.

My brother, when he called Coleman Jacobson, and he often apologized, and I heard this mentioned, and I am not a big synagogue goer, because Friday and Saturday night is the time we do business.

I know it is not right, but I don’t know whether Coleman Jacobson told him to call the synagogue or he called the synagogue, but I did hear, I know he made both calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time elapsed?

Mrs. GRANT. Between the two calls, it could have been an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed from the time he called Cecil Hamblen until he left the house?

Mrs. GRANT. Not more than an hour, but maybe 45 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, was this telephone call to Cecil Hamblen the last one he made?

Mrs. GRANT. No. I think it was before the other two calls. I mean, I think that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period shortly before he left your house, what was he doing?

Mrs. GRANT. He was sitting in my golden chair with his head in his hand, and we were talking. I said, “I never thought in my lifetime I would ever hear of a President being assassinated.” I thought when they do those things, when McKinley was shot and Garfield--I said, barbarians were running around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you doing most of the talking, or was Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes. He was quiet. He sat in the chair and he says, “Really, he was crazy,” and between that time he went in the bathroom and threw up. It was after he ate what he considered eating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t have very much to eat?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Because he asked me for scrambled eggs. I made him three eggs. He wanted the eggs.

I said, “I will make you four, and if you don’t eat it, I will eat it.”

I know those eggs, he ate one-third and just very little of anything that was there. So the amount of food he normally eats, he is a pretty good eater even with his diet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you he called Eileen?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes, it seems to me he told me that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me explain something. You see, you are jumping the gun. When he was sitting on this chair and crying, I had made this remark--don’t forget, I saw all this business on television already.

This was now after 6. Maybe even a quarter of 7. He left shortly after 7, so it can’t be after 7:20 or 7:25, so we can straighten that out.

I said, “That lousy Commie. Don’t worry, the Commie, we will get him.”

I also said this. If I say the word “commie” low, does it go in there when I say it?

I would like to see the television deal in order to get something straightened out. It seems to me Curry said he had three draft cards and he defected to Russia.

This was all in the late afternoon, and he kept repeating it. I figured out in my intelligence that this guy was sent to do it, so I said this.

I could never conceive of anybody in his right mind who would want this President hurt. Only a guy just of his caliber. [Lousy Commies--L. H. Oswald.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say?

Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t say nothing. I heard him say, “What a creep.” Whether it was Friday or Saturday, that is the exact term. [It was Friday.]

He never used the word “rat” or “skunk.” He doesn’t like my vocabulary. I come out and call his friends s.o.b., but you want the word, and he don’t like them. That don’t have to go on the record.

Did I get off the track? I am sorry, Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when did you next see him again after he left the house Friday night?

Mrs. GRANT. The next day he came.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come back to your house at all Friday night?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Wait a minute, you are asking me--I know what the question is. Now, I am sorry, sir, you will have to forgive me. My mind isn’t that good any more.

When he was leaving, he looked pretty bad. This I remember. I can’t explain it to you. He looked too broken, a broken man already. He did make the remark, he said, “I never felt so bad in my life, even when Ma or Pa died.”

So I said, “Well, Pa was an old man. He was almost 89 years. Anyone lives that long, you are lucky, such as the life he lived.”

I can’t put the things in there, the things that I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.

Mrs. GRANT. I said, “I don’t want anyone to get killed.” I said, “If it was Hoover, now, he is a man 85 years old, and I read a confidential report out of some magazine, he has the same thing that my father had, uremia. I bet he would almost or wish someone would shoot him.” I know how my father suffered.

Don’t misunderstand me, let him live and be well. This is not a thought on my part. It is a thought that this poor man who is suffering so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell this to your brother?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes. I think we were discussing--we were very close in saying things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was before he went to the synagogue?

Mrs. GRANT. During the time he was eating and the phone calls and all those little conversations that go up and back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again that night after he left?

Mrs. GRANT. No. When he was leaving, he already threw up, and I was very worried about him getting killed in traffic. I said, “Don’t go to the synagogue.” And he said, “Yes, I got to go.” He said, “I will never feel right.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you when he left the house he was going home first?

Mrs. GRANT. This is what--he was too dirty. He never wears clothes, the same clothes all day, if he has to go out in the evening or go into the club, and he wasn’t dressed right.

It seems to me his tie was loose, or whatever it was. I don’t even remember. I think he wore a grey suit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After he left?

Mrs. GRANT. He got home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t hear from him again, did you?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you when he got home?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you from his house? How long after he left?

Mrs. GRANT. About an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?

Mrs. GRANT. That is when he says to me, “I told Eileen you were going to call her. I told Eileen you were going to call her.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he say that to Eileen?

Mrs. GRANT. How do I know? He told Eileen in Chicago that I was going to call her that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Eileen?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I did. You want to know, my records would show it better than I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know you talked with Eileen?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but I don’t remember when I talked to her that night, Saturday night, but I am almost certain it was that night.

And I want to tell you what happened in the conversation. I said, “You know Jack wanted me to call you. I guess he called you. Such a tragedy. And how do you feel?”

And she said, “I want to send you a robe.”

And I said, “I don’t want nothing. I got flowers to bury me, and I would like to be buried away. I am just sick about this thing.”

And we were talking, only I didn’t speak so hectic as I am now. I was pretty low and sick physically. I said, “I am going to call over at Mary’s.” That is Mary and Ann Hyman, and Mary lives at 1044 Loyola, Chicago.

She said, “When you call over there, tell Hyman (my older brother) he left his glasses here.”

So I said, “You are in Chicago, why don’t you call him.” Kidding her.

And she said, “No.”

I think I called that night. You look and see. It seems to me I called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave the apartment at all that night?

Mrs. GRANT. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, somebody made a telephone call early Saturday morning from the Vegas Club.

Mrs. GRANT. That wasn’t right. That is a confusion. I billed it to the Vegas Club telephone, unless one of my help went there, which I doubt. But I wanted to call my son’s father-in-law, which I straightened out with the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was a call made to a family named Hirsch?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I made it Friday. I think Saturday. [Made on Saturday.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. The record indicates it was made somewhere around 1:00 or 12:45 Saturday morning, and the records indicate it was from the Vegas Club.

Mrs. GRANT. I would like to doubt that very much on the words. Let me explain something. What about the other two calls? Are they Friday? Do you have it there, to Chicago? [The phone company has written a letter to me stating that the call was made from LA 6-6258 at 10:45 p.m. (CST) on Saturday.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Someone made a call late Friday night to Hyman’s number in Chicago.

Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me tell you what the record shows. The record shows that Eileen called you around 9 o’clock.

Mrs. GRANT. She called me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.

Mrs. GRANT. Maybe that is right. See, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The record shows that Eileen called you.

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, maybe that is the--wait a minute, I thought Jack wanted me to call her. But that wasn’t it, was it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. The record shows that.

Mrs. GRANT. I know I talked to her. You want to know the truth. I know I talked to them once or twice a month, so I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember calling Hyman?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I remember calling that number over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember exactly when you called?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me it was Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the records indicate that a call was made to Hyman’s house from the Vegas Club on Friday night. Did you go out of the house?

Mrs. GRANT. Never left that house; never. So, I hope I don’t see my son alive. I did not leave Friday or Saturday out of that building. Not until Sunday when I was sneaking over to what I thought was the city hall. Let me explain this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember calling the Hirschs?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I think it was Saturday. Please listen to me. It was Saturday, November 23. I had called another number where my son lives. It is in my book. And calling my son’s number, maybe it was at 10:30 at night, Dallas time, and nobody answered. This was Saturday night. I decided to call Cecil and Viril Hirsch. That is the mother and father of my daughter-in-law.

And I said, “It is Eva.” And we talked, and I told him the town is falling apart over this, we are just sick. And I said, “Where are the kids?” I figured maybe Cecil is not answering the phone. And she said, “They are here.” And I said, “How come you are having an affair like this?”

And she said, “For three or four different weekends they were supposed to have a temple affair and are installing new officers. It started in September, but it is a new community, and all the mothers and fathers have young infants, and every other week, if they postponed it, a child had measles or chickenpox, and they said that this particular Saturday night, November 23, let’s see if everyone can’t come. We will install them whether they are there or not.”

And I said, “You tell Ronnie he is not to take the kids out of bed.” Not that my kid listens to me, but that is me talking. “And to stay there overnight, and maybe I will call them tomorrow or something.” Anyway, I said, “Don’t let them take the kids out.” And she said, “I told him not to.” And she said he was going to drive up at 12 o’clock sharp.

And I said, “Where does he get this traveling 40 miles and another 40 miles from my son’s mother-in-law’s home back to where they live.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me move ahead now. It is a Saturday morning. Did you see your brother Saturday morning, November 23?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Saturday afternoon, did you see him Saturday afternoon?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did. I spent every bit of 3½ or 4 hours, not 3½ hours, and not much more than 4 hours, with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you get up Saturday morning, as best you recall?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, it would be easiest to say that I didn’t sleep at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask you this. What time do you think your brother came to your house?

Mrs. GRANT. I would say 20 minutes before, and I think it would be the closest I could ever get, 20 to 4 in the afternoon, Saturday, November 23, and it could have been 5 to 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you contacted him?

Mrs. GRANT. Between the time that he left Friday night and the time he showed up Saturday afternoon, I think one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think he called you?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. It seems to me, I may be wrong, he didn’t call me early in the morning. It seems to me he called me--now, it wasn’t before noon--this I will swear, at least I can’t remember. He called me enough after 4, after 8 o’clock to make up for all the calls he didn’t. One call. I think he was in the club, and I would say after 12 o’clock, but I don’t know when.

I don’t know, I am just assuming that many times. I never know where he is at. I don’t question about where he is at. It don’t make any difference, unless he is in the neighborhood, like Friday, I might have questioned him when he said he was going to Phil’s. I said, “Where are you,” and he said, “I am in the club.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to get on for a second here. Do you remember calling a man named John Henry Branch on Saturday, November 23?

Mrs. GRANT. Me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Do you know who Branch is?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I know him. Gee, I don’t know. I have called him different times, but I don’t remember talking to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember trying to make some arrangements with Branch about getting a pianoplayer?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you do that?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know, I was having trouble right along. [I believe it was Friday, November 15.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that after you went in the hospital, or before you were in the hospital?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Joe left the first week in November. I have called Henry Branch, I think it was, before my operation, now that you brought it back to me. I don’t remember calling that Friday or Saturday, unless I wanted to show some people, because I had a pianoplayer. Leonard Wood was working for me. He was the pianoplayer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he quit you fairly soon?

Mrs. GRANT. But he was working then, because I want to tell you what happened. He had called the house. Now listen closely. Leonard Wood called the house. You brought that up, and I have all reasons to believe it was Friday night. And he said, “How do you feel, Mrs. Grant?”

You know one thing about the colored people, since I have been sick, most of them were very nice, even if they hated me. I know if I got mad at them, like Joe, we still love him. I don’t know what it is, he had called, and I have reasons to believe it was Friday night.

Now, listen to this. He said, “How do you feel?” Now, I may have called him and told him not to come into work, or Jack called, or someone had called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called the personnel at the Vegas Club to tell them not to come to work? Did you make any calls to your personnel at the Vegas Club?

Mrs. GRANT. Pauline was calling me all the time, and Emma Collins, and I am glad you brought it up. I can’t think of every damn thing. Leo Torti is our helper or manager. He does many things, and we owe him some money. It wasn’t we--Ralph Paul. Anyway, it seems to me, the best of my knowledge, he had all of their phone numbers, but it seems to me I, myself, may have called Leonard sometime late that afternoon, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mrs. Grant, just let----

Mrs. GRANT. And Leonard Wood wanted some money, and I think it was Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want the details.

Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, this is very important.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mrs. GRANT. He wanted some money, so I think, it seems to me I said--Jack was in the house--“You will tell the guys at the garage next door to the Carousel Club, you give him your name, and he will put $10 in an envelope.” Now, Jack made this call from the house. This is Friday night.

There was a guy there, Larry Crafard, and Andy is supposed to be there. Jack says, “You stay there until 9 o’clock, and then you put up a sign ‘closed tonight’.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he say this to?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been Saturday night that he said this?

Mrs. GRANT. It could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, was that the same night that Leonard Wood called?

Mrs. GRANT. No. It seems to me Leonard called Friday. I may be wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Leonard called and wanted some money?

Mrs. GRANT. He was already informed we were not going to be open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Leonard called and wanted some money?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes. And Jack--I was on the phone, this much I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked to Leonard?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes. It seems to me he talked to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call the Nichols Garage?

Mrs. GRANT. No. I don’t even know the number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What garage were you saying he could get some money in an envelope?

Mrs. GRANT. Next door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which garage is that? Next door to the Carousel Club?

Mrs. GRANT. Next door to the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call that garage?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are sure that was in connection with Leonard Wood?

Mrs. GRANT. That is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Could it have happened Saturday night?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know if he told Andy. I know Crafard didn’t have any money. “Put it in an envelope and you go next door, and there will be $10 for you.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well?

Mrs. GRANT. Maybe you are right. Maybe it was Saturday. I know the call came to the house. That is all I know, and I know I talked to Leonard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Leonard about the money in the envelope, or did Jack talk to him about the money in the envelope?

Mrs. GRANT. I talked to him, because Jack was talking to me, and I was relating it on the phone, but I did not call anyone to tell them where to put the envelope. That I do remember. If I did, I don’t remember, and I don’t want to be quoted that I do remember. And I am not trying to get out of it. I know we put--there was supposed to be left $10 one of those nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have no recollection of talking with Branch any time over that weekend?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t have. I know I had talked to him in the last month at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, how long did Jack stay at your house? When did he leave your house on Saturday night?

Mrs. GRANT. 8 o’clock, or 10 to 8, or 10 after 8.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as 11 o’clock?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; no. I tell you what happened. May I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. GRANT. He came over, and he was excited and goofy. Said he had been to the post office, connected with the Morning News. He said the box is full of mail. He said it some commie. He takes out three pictures. It is postalcard pictures, and in the left-hand corner there was a picture of Earl Warren.

He told me he had a fight at the bar, and I know the man Solomon at the Turf Bar or Surf. It is on Commerce Street. And he said he nearly took a swing at a guy. And I want you to know, I do not know this person. I don’t think I ever talked to him yet. If I have, I don’t remember. It seems to me our accountant was in there, Abe Kleinman. He said there is a little weasel or creep was in there, and he said, “I am leaving Dallas. This is a hell of a place. We got a black mark here.” And that is when Jack picked up his hand, and said, “I will take a whack at you.” He picked up his hand and said something to the effect, “I ought to take a whack at you for things like that. You made all your money here and now you are running out. There is nothing wrong. This is the best city in all this business.” And he said he called Gordon. Oh, he called Gordon McLendon. I don’t know what went on. Of course, I didn’t give a damn, and I went to take a shower.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had been to the police station the night before?

Mrs. GRANT. No; this is Saturday afternoon. Now, see, you skipped over Friday night late after the synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t see him Friday night?

Mrs. GRANT. He called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the synagogue he called you?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he call you?

Mrs. GRANT. He said he was in Phil’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Phil’s?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you?

Mrs. GRANT. He said, “Do you have the private number of KLIF?” I thought he was nuts. You want to know why? I never had any reason to call over there for a private number and little bit I know they had any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He called and said he wanted to know the number of whom?

Mrs. GRANT. Of Russ Knight. And why did he ask me the number. I hadn’t had Russ Knight’s number in the last 2 years, because he played a record of Joe Johnson, and I gave it to Russ Knight. But I couldn’t think in--I couldn’t think of his last name, and I didn’t think we were going to find out.

To make a long story short, he said he was in Phil’s, and I don’t know if he was in Phil’s on the highway or the one in the neighborhood. The first thing he wanted to know is how I felt, because I was pretty bad. And I asked him if he had gone to the synagogue and he said, “Yes.” He said, “What are you doing?” Truthfully, I was watching and not hearing, but it didn’t mean a thing any more, because I was already--he said he was going to the station, and this is something I want to get very clear. I didn’t give a damn if he went to the radio station or police station. I don’t know what idea, because he knows somebody everywhere he goes, they know him. I assumed he had friends there. And he asked me if I remembered Russ’ name? At the time I didn’t even remember who he was talking about. He said, “The weird beard.” I don’t know who he was talking about, and it didn’t make any difference to me. This was late. He said after he had been to the synagogue, it wasn’t before 10:30--it could have been around midnight--there was no conception of time any more for me that following evening.

Now, the next day, he called me sometime in the afternoon. He came over about 3:40. He says, “I went to a mailbox.” He said that in the middle of the night he took pictures, and he told me a bunch of stories. And in his mind, Bernard Weissman was a gentile using a Jewish name to implicate the Jews again and all this business. I said, “He is probably some Commie.” And while in my home, and this I heard, he called Stanley Kaufman. And I don’t know what went on on the other side, and he is telling him this, he says, “He is out of town, but I am going to take this to the FBI.” And I asked him during that time, I said, “What are you going to do with it?”

There were a lot of things that happened Friday and Saturday. I am not smart about politics or the phrases they use always, whether they are right or wrong. He said, “I got a scoop for Gordon.” And I said, “What are you going to do with it?” And he said, “I am going to take it Monday to give it to the FBI.” And I thought he said it said, “Impeach Earl Warren.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know who Earl Warren was?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he is quite familiar with the position he holds in the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know at that time who he was?

Mrs. GRANT. I am sure he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him making a telephone call to Russ Knight from your apartment Saturday?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, let me tell you, I know he called him. No; I know he called Stanley. This, I swear my life. He may have. I don’t want to be held responsible for saying that he did or didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All I ask is if you remember?

Mrs. GRANT. No; sir, but he made calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you remember him calling from your apartment on Saturday?

Mrs. GRANT. I know in this conversation he said this, “I went all through the telephone book and I went along Oak Cliff Avenue, and I even went to the city directory.” Now, whether I had said something to him earlier or then, or what, but I figured that would be the police. It is in the back of my mind. I said something, whether I was telling him to go, or he told me he had been, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he telling this bit about?

Mrs. GRANT. He was telling, mostly he talked, I would say, 15 minutes anyway to Stanley Kaufman, his attorney here in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the city directory?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know about that, but I know we talked about it. He said he was looking for Bernard Weissman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?

Mrs. GRANT. You messed up on a lot of stuff that went on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take place in your presence?

Mrs. GRANT. This conversation was made in front of me, and this is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you missed anything on Friday that took place in your presence?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, Betty Gouchuin came with the newspaper on Friday morning at 10 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We covered that.

Mrs. GRANT. Even the second time after the conversation, and while he wasn’t there, I read the darn thing, and I am going to tell you the truth, I am not smart enough to detect if there is any animosity. It is like we sent wheat to Russia.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk----

Mrs. GRANT. He asked me did I see the ad, and I said, “Yes, but I didn’t like it. I looked at it.” And since he has already been fed up and fouled up in the newspaper office, when he came Friday he brought me back the morning paper and the evening paper with “The President is dead,” and he said, “Look at it.” He said different things like, “Any other city would be honored to have him visit them. Of all the cities in the United States to have the President to come here.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back to Saturday with this understanding that if there is anything that took place in your presence or that Jack said to you on Saturday that we haven’t covered already? We are finished with Friday. When you read this transcript again, if there is anything that comes to your mind in reading that transcript, write it out and send it to us. But let’s go on to Saturday. Let’s stay on Saturday. Now, the telephone calls, you said he called Stanley Kaufman?

Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he talk to Stanley Kaufman about that you heard?

Mrs. GRANT. He went to the post office, and he was still talking about these pictures, and he said he couldn’t find a name like that anywhere. He implied that this was not a Jewish man that did it. It was a gentile, and he just wanted to get the Jews in trouble.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He implied that?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually say that?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I could tell from the way he worded. You don’t have to say a lot of things if you know a person as well as I know Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at that conclusion on Saturday when you were talking to him, or is that some conclusion you----

Mrs. GRANT. This was Friday. Well, no, I got to thinking that (pause), I had said this to him. “It could be a gentile with a name just like that,” and didn’t think anything of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you suggest to him that it might be a gentile?

Mrs. GRANT. I said in words that it might be a gentile, with a name like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think that?

Mrs. GRANT. Because I know a lot of Swedes, like the name Swanson, or Peter. I know a lot of Jewish people named Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you the idea that the Weissman ad was put in by a gentile?

Mrs. GRANT. Nothing any more than I was just trying to cover--not cover up--maybe in my subconscious mind I didn’t want a Jew to be connected with it either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack suggest that to you, or you to him, first?

Mrs. GRANT. This is it. We both feel--we don’t have the feeling that anyone would be such a low life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember which one said it. We felt that way. We talked about it. I could have said a lot of things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, what do you remember saying to Jack about the Weissman ad on Saturday afternoon or evening?

Mrs. GRANT. I asked him, I said, “Did you look in the city directory?” I probably indicated stuff like he is a Commie, and by Saturday he already changed. I figured I talked about Birchers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, on Friday when you talked with Jack about the Weissman ad, did you suggest to him, or was there any talk that Weissman might not be a Jew?

Mrs. GRANT. He was a commie straight with Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday when you talked about the ad; is that right?

Mrs. GRANT. I mean, he implied little things like that. After all, it is my brother. We have a right to have private conversations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. GRANT. I maybe even said, “Jew” to rile up everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first talked with Mr. Burleson about this, did you tell him what you have just been telling us here?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. If he remembers, he is doing better than I am doing. If he thinks I lied, or I am not telling the truth, I don’t know--did I leave something out?

Mr. BURLESON. Not that I know.

Mrs. GRANT. Saturday afternoon he brought me three pictures, and he is reading them, and this is on the paper, “Impeach Earl Warren,” and he thinks this is commies and Birchers. That is when it all came, to remember about Birchers, and I know very little about them, and I know less about communism.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention any literature by H. L. Hunt?

Mrs. GRANT. He had that literature for some time. I think he had that literature a couple of weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about that literature after?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he hated him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hated whom?

Mrs. GRANT. H. L. Hunt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he mention this to you?

Mrs. GRANT. He don’t have to say he hates. I know my brother. If a man looks at his wife, he don’t have to tell me. He implies he hates her. This was something--he went someplace and he told me something that, I think we read this in the paper, I will be honest about it, that at the World’s Fair they don’t want them in. I don’t know where I got the information.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any radio script he got from H. L. Hunt?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the day I was in his car, he took me from the hospital, and I think he had it in there before I even went to the hospital, I don’t know. It seems to me in October or September I seen something that my brother didn’t like in Life Line. I can’t use the words for this machine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you remember any other phone calls that he made on Saturday from your apartment?

Mrs. GRANT. He made a lot of them. He was there until almost 8 o’clock, or 10 after 8. He did not leave before 7:30, and he was out of my house before 8:30, but he spent a good 4 hours Saturday, and he slept a little bit. He said he hadn’t slept for two or three nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call Tom O’Grady from your apartment?

Mrs. GRANT. He may have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that?

Mrs. GRANT. In the back of my mind, he may have; yes. Now, I don’t know. You know what, I am going to tell you something. I wasn’t too, what do you call it when you can’t recall your thoughts--it was 2 terrible days. It was the worst days for me than a lot of people, because I was taking pills.

Mr. BURLESON. Amnesia?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I was more like in a trance. I was sick physically. I was taking these pills. The shock of the President knocked me off gear. I thought the world was coming to an end. My brother sitting there like a broken man crying. All this went until days for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call Ralph Paul from your apartment?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I think he did. He may have even called Friday, I don’t know. If it is on my bill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Ralph?

Mrs. GRANT. No. I think I called him that following Sunday, the 24th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t call him on Friday or Saturday?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I had very little business with Ralph Paul. Not that I remember. It would have to be an exceptionally good reason, and I don’t know what reason it would have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack receive a telephone call from Little Lynn while he was at your apartment?

Mrs. GRANT. Not that I can recall. The phone did ring, but I couldn’t say who it was. But I remember the Friday night, because Andy called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the telephone call from somebody asking Jack for some money on Saturday night?

Mrs. GRANT. I remember I spoke with Leonard Wood about he wanted some money. Either I picked up the phone--I thought it was Friday night. Now, if it wasn’t, I am quite mixed up. In fact, until recently, I forgot about giving him $10 until Sunday morning, and this only came to me recently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, on Saturday night from your apartment, did Jack call a man named Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Who is he? I would like to know who he is. Someone else asked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A friend of Jack’s from Chicago.

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know who he was. Was he in Chicago, the fellow?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; he was in Dallas.

Mrs. GRANT. I never heard the name, believe me, so help me God. I don’t even know who you are talking about. I know Lenny Patrick. I know who he is, and I haven’t seem him in 35 years. We are very well acquainted!

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack----

Mrs. GRANT. Who is this guy, a racketeer? I want to know. I want to find out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is not a racketeer. He is a perfectly legitimate man, but a friend of Jack’s.

Mrs. GRANT. Who is he? I want to find out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He sells sports goods.

Mrs. GRANT. That is more like my brother’s friends. I once had lunch with a judge. That doesn’t make me a judge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think I am accusing you of anything?

Mrs. GRANT. No; I like you, but I want you to try to understand that we are not children. If we were 20 years of age, we only have many acquaintances. Jack and I traveled a great deal, and we met many people. Jack has a vast amount of knowledge of people’s names. That is more than I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say this, that in the testimony we have been taking today, I don’t think there has been any suggestion of any accusations--I have simply been trying to find out from you what you did.

(U.S. Attorney H. Barefoot Sanders enters room.)

Mrs. GRANT (to Mr. Sanders). If you hear hollering, it is me. You want to shut me down and not let me explain this. When you run a business like we have, people come up and, you don’t go up and ask what business are you in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Look, you don’t even have to go into this, as far as I am concerned, because all I want to find out about is what you did on Saturday night and Sunday, and I only mentioned Mr. Meyers’ name, not to suggest he was a racketeer or anything like that.

Mrs. GRANT. I would like to know who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I have told you.

Mrs. GRANT. I appreciate it, and I want to thank you, because someone else asked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will give Mr. Burleson his address. In fact, I think Mr. Burleson already has his address.

Mrs. GRANT. How come you don’t ask Harry Rosenthal why he goes to Las Vegas every weekend? I want to know why you don’t ask him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s stay on the track.

Mrs. GRANT. If he came to visit me, would it make me a gambler? I wish I had money to gamble. I like to go to the racetracks.

Mr. BURLESON. No; you don’t, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, when Jack left your apartment on Saturday night, did he say where he was going?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going?

Mrs. GRANT. When I first told the story, I had forgotten about his saying he was going to the club, something to talk to Andy, or to go to the garage about the money again. It had to do with leaving money again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s----

Mrs. GRANT. But this is what he had in mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back on this, now.

Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t eat at my house this Saturday. In fact, he spent so much time, all he drank was juice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this money thing that he had to take care of downtown, how did that come up?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, you see, you have confused me. I don’t know if that was Leonard Wood’s deal or anybody else, but it seems to me in the back of my mind there was someone else that needed money, and I don’t know who to put the finger on that asked, because with all the help, and it was something to do with his club. At least that is what it seems to me. In one of those conversations, either Friday or Saturday, he said, “You stay there until 9 o’clock.” On Saturday night, it could not have been Larry, because when Jack came in the afternoon, he told me, “Guess what, Larry left me a note and took some money. He is mad at me.” And I said, “Why?” He said, “Because I didn’t leave him money, or something, I didn’t buy dogfood.”

He said, “Well, don’t you take money,” or something. I heard this. This is what Jack told me, something about dogfood. And I said, “Why did he leave?” He said, “Well, after we took the pictures, I told him I am going to be up, I feel good, I am going to go here,” and Jack talked like that, and I do too. But instead of that, he went home, because this is the morning of the 23d after he was up all night. Well, I don’t know if he slept, because he didn’t get home till 2:30 or 3 or 4. He called Larry and got him out of bed, and they went to take the pictures, and took these pictures sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is something you didn’t see?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They told you? Jack told you all this when?

Mrs. GRANT. George told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did George tell you that?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know when I saw him. It was the next time, but I don’t remember when I saw him. I didn’t see him that Sunday, that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was sometime after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. GRANT. Oh yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you about this?

Mrs. GRANT. The pictures, I saw myself, three pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, when Jack came up to your apartment Saturday afternoon, what did you spend most of your time doing? Talking, or watching television or what?

Mrs. GRANT. No; he didn’t watch it at all. I know he didn’t. In fact, he fell asleep for over an hour on my bed. This is the first time he has ever done that. He noticed I got a new spread a month and a half ago, and since it cost $20.50 apiece, I have twin beds, he didn’t even pull the top down, and there is a big oil spot from his head, and I was going to give him hell on Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he showed up at your place did he go in there and rest?

Mrs. GRANT. He came about 20 to 4. He was there almost to 8, or 10 after 8. It seems to me there were many hours. He talked and called Stanley and took the phone in the bedroom. He laid down, and then got up, and when he left, he told me he was going home to eat. I think he called George.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant, let’s see, maybe we can pinpoint when he was sleeping there. How long after he woke up did he leave your apartment? About how much time elapsed?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say maybe an hour. Maybe 40 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had he been in your apartment before he went to sleep?

Mrs. GRANT. A few hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then he didn’t sleep very long?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say he slept?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. I think I actually fell asleep myself. I hadn’t slept well for a couple of nights. Hadn’t slept all Friday night, and neither did I sleep Saturday during the night, or either Thursday night. That was the reason I would take one of these pills.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant, if the other evidence showed that Jack arrived down at the Carousel Club about 11 o’clock----

Mrs. GRANT. The date?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Listen to me.

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know nothing about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, listen.

Mrs. GRANT. Can I catch you up a little before that?

Mr. BURLESON. Let him ask questions, and then you can fill it in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish. If the evidence showed that he left and arrived down at the Carousel Club about 11 o’clock at night, and that he received a telephone call about money----

Mrs. GRANT. It could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At about 10:30 at night.

Mrs. GRANT. Not from my place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It couldn’t have been at your place?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Will you listen to me? Don’t forget--Friday night we had all of the delicatessen stuff. This is Saturday. I did not make one thing. He asked me what I had got to eat. I said, “Same thing that you brought yesterday.” That didn’t satisfy him. This is in the back of my mind. He may have called his apartment and George was there, because he made calls. He wasn’t home. I don’t know where he was for 2 hours or 2½ hours.

He was home, it seems to me, after 10. I would say 10:15. He said he took a shower and was getting dressed, and he made liver and onions, or liver. George had bought liver. Whether it was prepared before, or whether it was raw, and Jack had to fry it, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?

Mrs. GRANT. He was telling me, and he said, “Ask me what I ate?” I said, “I don’t feel like eating. I ate enough for six people, just little bites.” And I said, “Did you eat?” And he said, “Yes George brought a lot of stuff.” George is a Jewish housewife, in my estimation.

Jack called me from his house. He said he had liver. And he was very depressed, and he was droopy depressed. We get high and low, which you probably know. He was so low, I said, “Go see somebody.” And he said, “I don’t want to.” And I said, “You are depressed. Go see somebody.” Well, I don’t know, I mean go see somebody that you like. Now, I didn’t know this then. I did not know this Sunday. I found out maybe a week later or two, I don’t know when. I found out he went to Bob Norton of the Pago-Pago Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time in which you told him to go see somebody?

Mrs. GRANT. After 10 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you arrive at that?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I knew it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, he was watching television. Was it getting late in the evening and he had been gone a couple of hours?

Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t after 11 o’clock, and it wasn’t after 12 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as early as 9 o’clock?

Mrs. GRANT. You know, this sounds crazy. I think he went home and slept a little bit too. I think that is what he told me. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that he could have slept a little bit. And he is a very slow dresser. Anybody that probably can get dressed like in the Army, how they ever tolerated him, because it is hustle bustle, eager beaver--it could take him 3 hours to shave and dress, the way he wants to look like, because he stops and make a phone call, but he was very slow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you at all about Breck Wall that Saturday?

Mrs. GRANT. I think he made a call to him Friday. Was it?

Mr. BURLESON. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about Wall?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you about Wall?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he is out of town.

Mr. BURLESON. Can I give you some testimony. It might shed some light that might help her?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. In all sincerity, I am trying to remember. I have a good memory, but I have been sick, and I have been taking pills, and this is the thing that bothers me.

Mr. BURLESON. Let me say this into the record. I am sure the Commission knows Breck Wall is a client of mine who was running a show at the Adolphus Hotel here in Dallas, and he closed down because of the assassination, and he went down to Galveston to visit his parents. And Jack called Breck Wall at night on Saturday night.

Mrs. GRANT. That I remember, Galveston.

Mr. BURLESON. And was very, very upset.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say late, what time did he call?

Mr. BURLESON. Between 9 and 11, as best I recall, because he called me the next day when Jack was charged, and asked me to go help Jack, and he told me that he talked to him the night before, and he was very upset, and had just seen it on television, and wanted to see if I could help in any way.

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he told me--I know the word Galveston, and I didn’t know anybody in Galveston, and he said he talked to Breck. Don’t ask me what he said, I don’t know. I don’t know if he was at the club or at home. Where was he?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Grant, after he left your apartment, and called you from his own apartment and you told him----

Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you, I didn’t hear from him for at least 2 hours, it seems to me, from the time he left my home Saturday night, at least 2 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said, when he left your house, he said he had to go downtown and give somebody some money. You said a couple of hours later he called you and you told him go see somebody?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, are you sure that when he left your house he said he was going to give somebody some money, or did he tell you that in the telephone call that he made a couple of hours later?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems that he said something about money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the telephone call, or when he got to your house?

Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me when he left the house, while he was at the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the telephone call that he made in which you told him to go see somebody, did he call you again?

Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, let’s get this right. After what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the telephone call?

Mrs. GRANT. After 10 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. GRANT. Sure, he called me again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he call you again?

Mrs. GRANT. It was almost a quarter to 1, or 20 to 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he?

Mrs. GRANT. I thought he was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say?

Mrs. GRANT. He asked me how I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was reading Reader’s Digest, and he asked me was I watching television. Yes, I was watching, but I wasn’t listening. And he said, “What else? What was happening?” And I said, “Nothing.” And I said, “I think they signed off.” And they got terrible; they got terrible music on. What I meant to say was, very depressing music. I said it was from 11, only memorial, and it was some singing, I think, and I go on watching him.

No; I don’t say I was watching, but they turned it off. I think, all the stations went off early.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he called you this time, did he say anything to you other than just ask you how you were?

Mrs. GRANT. I can’t remember all the conversation. He asked me if I called home or something, did I call somebody, it seems to me, but I am confused on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that this telephone call we are now talking about occurred at 1 o’clock Sunday morning, or could it have been 1 o’clock Saturday morning?

Mrs. GRANT. No. [He could of called me both nights; at that time.] The last time I talked to my brother previously to him shooting Oswald was close to 1 o’clock, was more like 20 to 1, or a quarter of 1--it was after 12:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time?

Mrs. GRANT. Well, because he says to me, “What are you doing?”

My trouble, I have a habit, and this watch stays right there on this long table, and I watch television when it is on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did that telephone call last?

Mrs. GRANT. Not too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say to you that he was at his apartment?

Mrs. GRANT. No, but it was very quiet. I felt he was there alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate to you he was going to go anyplace after that telephone call?

Mrs. GRANT. No. He could have been at a booth, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate anything about the Weinsteins to you in that telephone call?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention the Weinsteins to you on Saturday night?

Mrs. GRANT. No. Friday we talked about it. We talked about clubs, and I am sure in the back of his mind he referred to the, what is it, Branch office club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about doing something to Oswald?

Mrs. GRANT. Never even mentioned his name. Never even watched only the one time Friday. He took a look and said something, “What a creep.” He didn’t watch television from my house. Now, I don’t mean he didn’t watch television. If he did, it wasn’t that it would have--where he sits, he don’t face it like I sit opposite it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the next thing you heard from him, heard about Jack was that he had shot Oswald?

Mrs. GRANT. May I go back to you and tell you all the things that happened Sunday morning? Is that what you want to know?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am sure I do. Did you remain at your apartment all Sunday morning?

Did you remain at your apartment all Sunday morning?

Mrs. GRANT. Never left it until the time I walked out with Pauline and Bill Rainbow. No, I didn’t leave. No, I stayed there. Pauline and that New York reporter----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Underwood? Ike Pappas?

Mrs. GRANT. No. I think his name is something like Denson or Jensen. I think he said New York Times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time were you watching television when your brother shot Lee Oswald?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. I got up early in the morning. I took a pill. I freshened up myself. I didn’t get dressed into my clothes. I went back into the bed. Then I decided to get out, and I turned on television, and all I saw is important people passing the coffin on television, people from all over the world.

I started to put on water, and I didn’t feel good, and I was listening, and then all of a sudden they started, they changed the scene themselves, and I saw a guy with, it seems to me a three-quarters length coat with glasses and a lot of hair, and he is talking, and is mumbling.

Mr. BURLESON. Tom?

Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know who to this very day. I don’t know who they were talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was on the occasion----

Mrs. GRANT. This was after 11 o’clock now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But this was how you learned that Jack had shot Oswald?

Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain this. My phone rang, and I heard this guy say--this may be twisting the words around. “There has been a little excitement here,” and he stopped and he says. “I think they shot Oswald.”

And my phone rang. Leonard Wood was talking to me on the phone. This is all in--whether he was listening to another station, or something, I don’t know, and he is talking to me, and what do you think I said to him, I said, “Leonard, you don’t call me every day. Now don’t tell me, ‘How do you feel, Mrs. Grant?’”

“Fine. Do you know where Jack is at?”

And I said, “No.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Leonard tried to call Jack in the morning?

Mrs. GRANT. Now, don’t ask me that. I want to tell you. I don’t know what he tried to do.

Now, we talked about different things, and then he was almost gone, and hanging on, and he said, “Are you watching television, Mrs. Grant?”

And I said, “Yes.”

I was watching, but I wasn’t listening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon did you learn that Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. GRANT. I want to tell you how many phone calls I got. This is one for the books. I am talking to him, and I finally said, “Now, listen, Leonard”--I figured he was trying to find Jack to get some money. I said, “Now, listen, Leonard, you know things have been pretty rough in the club, and you got $10 either last night or the night before.”

And he said, “I don’t want any money.” And he said, “Are you all right?”

And I said, “Yes.”

See, he probably--I never got to talk to Leonard. I wish he would come to see me. I don’t know whether he knew of something or what, and he was hemming and hawing over the phone, I didn’t get a chance to put the phone down a second, not a second. The phone rang and Andy said, “Mrs. Grant, this is Andy. Where is Jack? Is Jack with you?”

And I said, “No. He is at home.”

He said, “No, he is not at home.”

I said, “Listen, you know when Jack takes a shower--ring him again.”

And he said, “I rang four or five times.”

I said, “Hang up and call again.”

And he said, “Mrs. Grant, I rang.”

I said, “If he is in the bathroom, he isn’t going to hear the phone.” And we talked--I don’t know if he knew. I mean, this I found out he knew.

I asked him about 2 weeks later, or a week later, and he knew about it.

Wait a minute, I am not through. The phone rang again, and I want to tell you, you may know I put on water for boiling--Madeline Blainey was on the phone.

By this time I got to the television. I only had to walk from there to a few feet. I had it on that wall, maybe 9 feet, and I turned it up, and this is what I heard, “John Logan, no Jack Luby.”

I wanted to back in the kitchen with the phone, and I wasn’t walking too much, and I turned it down.

Madeline is on the phone and says, “How do you feel?”

And I said, “Fine.” I am talking to her, and I turned the damn thing down.

I saw--this is rerun--if it is, I don’t know--I actually saw what the other people saw. This is my conversation with Madeline and why they never went to see her, I will never know.

I am watching it. “Don’t forget,” I said, you get the name, repeat the two names. But I turned it down, because it was too close to the phone.

I wasn’t going to go out of the living room, and I wasn’t going to eliminate one or the other. I wanted to be sure I know both things are going on.

I said, “How are you,” and she said, “OK, who is there?”

And I said, “Who would be there.”

I am wearing my mu-mu my daughter-in-law sent me for Christmas, and I wouldn’t dare let anyone in. I am shooting my mouth off about Joe Johnson. I have a great admiration--he’s a colored boy been with us 8 years. He told me, “We had a fight, not 130 fights, but a fight.”

I said, “Madeline, I want to apologize for sort of neglecting you,” because when I was in the hospital, Madeline and Joe came walking in the very same time to visit me in the hospital. Here both walking in. Madeline and I understand, but this is the guy we want as a band leader to come back.

I said, “Joe, take a seat.”

I said, “Madeline, I hope you don’t resent me talking to Joe about his children,” and we talk about his children, and he kept on talking.

She said, “Eva, I don’t want to be the one to tell you this. Do you know who did the shooting?”

And I said, “No.”

She said, “Jack shot Oswald.”

That was the end of me. Now, I never hung up. I never turned my television off. I remember these people, Jim Holland and his wife, Margo, and a fellow who, these people live next door, Jim Reed--the manager had gone away for the day, but I didn’t know it. As a rule, she would have heard me. I didn’t know for 2 days that she wasn’t there Sunday.

I ran to the door, and I don’t know what happened--this I tell you. In the first place, no one ever told me. I thought they killed my brother too.

All I know is, I was out of my mind. I ran to the door--I don’t usually dress in this--in my mu-mu to meet strangers, but there was such a knock on my door. There were minutes I can’t recall.

I will not tell you any stories. I don’t know exactly, before I knew it, all I know there were photographers there--and your best guess is to ask Pauline what took place, if you get in touch with her.

I go into the bathroom. I want to change, but instead, I had put a robe on. This is what I think I done.

Whoever talked to me, I thought they said they killed Jack too. I don’t know what took place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Grant, what you are telling us now can’t affect your brother’s case in any way.

Mrs. GRANT. I am not trying to hide anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize, but I want to tell you--I realize you want to tell us, and I am going to have to cut you off.

I want to explain to you that what you could tell us from here on, since it is all after the fact, is not material relevant to the shooting of Oswald. So, we are at the end really.

Let me ask you this question: Did you talk to your brother at all about the President’s visit, expected visit to Dallas before President Kennedy arrived?

Mrs. GRANT. During that week on Monday--now, it may have been Tuesday, Dallas Morning News had a picture of a desk similar to this. Looked like two doors, and little John-John was right here, and the President was back there, and the President was looking at him, and my brother had said, “This guy don’t act like a President. He is just like a regular father.”

This is what my brother enjoyed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your brother talk to you about going to see the parade?

Mrs. GRANT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if we can do this. You brought a number of items here that you would like us to look at. I don’t want to take them from you without making a record.

Mrs. GRANT. I want to sign that paper for you. That is what I want to do.

I think you are being very fair, and I am going to tell you this, there are a lot of things that concern these things, and they are upsetting me because I can’t tell them, and I can’t leave them here. I know your time is limited.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try and reassure you this way. I think I am going to be back in Dallas, probably once more, and I know that you probably would like to talk to us again, and we will make arrangements to talk to you at that time.

Mrs. GRANT. Well, if you don’t talk to me, I am going to Washington, and I am going to do some pretty stiff talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We want to hear everything you have to say. I wonder if you would want to send to us the particular things that you want to talk to us about, so we can be prepared to handle them perhaps in a relatively orderly fashion?

Mrs. GRANT. No, I don’t want it in any mail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t want to send anything to us?

Mrs. GRANT. Not through the mail.

This is the stuff, take it with you.

Mr. BURLESON. That is the post office package that Jack picked up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is the material you had printed?

Mrs. GRANT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF VICTOR F. ROBERTSON, JR.

The testimony of Victor F. Robertson, Jr. was taken at 2:05 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

We have a general procedure of giving a little spiel in advance about what we are here for, so I will tell you that the Commission has been set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress and we have been directed to investigate and evaluate and report back to the President all the facts that have to do with the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today because in particular you provided some very helpful information to the FBI.

We want to find out what you can tell us about the events of November 22, 23, and 24. Did you receive a letter from us?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive that 3 days ago or longer?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I received one about 10 days ago just before I left for San Francisco and the convention. This one is dated the 18th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are entitled to receive a written notice 3 days before you get here. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask about the deposition that is about to be taken?

Mr. ROBERTSON. None at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your full name for the court reporter.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Victor F. Robertson, Jr.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you give us your address?

Mr. ROBERTSON. 414 South Willomet Avenue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. ROBERTSON. December 17, 1933.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. ROBERTSON. With WFAA radio and television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do for them?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I am a reporter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a news reporter?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Oddly enough, the only way I can clarify it as a reporter, I work covering the city hall beat primarily, and political assignments. I do some work on the air, actually, I am assigned outside the station just as a reporter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you first met him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I am not sure I can give even an approximate date. Considerably prior to February of 1963, but how much before, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times had you seen him before February of 1963?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Perhaps a dozen or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had it been that you had seen him on those various occasions?

Mr. ROBERTSON. One of the men who had been working for our station had an interest in one of the girls who was working in Jack’s club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which girl was that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t remember her name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which employee was that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. She was one of the girls who, I guess, “danced” for Jack. All I can remember about her is that she had at one time worked for Lone Star Cadillac and she quit there and went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the employee who was interested?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Murphy Martin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he employed at the radio station in November?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. He was working for us as our primary newscaster until February of 1963 when he went with the American Broadcasting Co. in New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave Dallas in 1963?

Mr. ROBERTSON. He left; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited the Carousel with him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right. There were several of us that used to go up there in a group.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After February of 1963, did you have occasion to see Jack Ruby?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes. Not frequently. I would see him on the street or up at the city hall or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anybody that you have confused with Jack Ruby?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, where were you when you first heard that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. ROBERTSON. In the phone booth in the Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time of the day was that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It must have been immediately afterward. I had called the station. One of the men in the news room, John Allen, answered the phone, and I told him where I was, and he said, “My God, he’s been hit.” So far as I know, the phone is still hanging there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I took off on a dead run down Main Street to the Depository.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the Depository?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Until the call came over the police radio about the officer having been shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I went out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go out with?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I drove out with Ron Reiland and Hugh Aynesworth of the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you driving the automobile?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; Ron drove.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go out to the scene where Tippit had been shot?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived out there, what did you find?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Perhaps I should correct that. Actually, we went first to a location on West--no; East Jefferson Avenue, not quite opposite the Dudley Hughes Funeral Home where the man who shot Tippit was believed to be in the building. This was approximately a block and a half from the site where Tippit was shot. Then we went to the site where he had been found, and from there to the Texas Theatre.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive at the Texas Theatre before Oswald was brought out?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Oswald being brought out of the theatre?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you observe?

Mr. ROBERTSON. As he was being brought out. He was in the back of the theatre in the center section, perhaps a quarter to a third of the way over from the right-hand aisle as you look down toward the screen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go into the theatre?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right. I was looking through the drapes at the back over the little railing as they arrested him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you arrive before he was actually taken into custody?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see the police officers doing as you got there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It was kind of confused. He rose in his seat and lifted his arm with his pistol just about simultaneously with the time they landed all over him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far were you from him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. About three or four rows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would that be?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Possibly 10.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?

Mr. ROBERTSON. The officer in charge said as they were taking him out of the theatre, “Don’t let anyone see his face,” or words to that effect. “Don’t let anyone touch him.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you inside the Texas Theatre before you saw Oswald rise out of his seat?

Mr. ROBERTSON. A matter of a length of time it takes to walk from the door to those curtains and pull them apart. It was a matter of seconds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, just as you pulled apart the curtains, you were able to see him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, there is a slight delay there. When I arrived inside the theatre, the main portion of the theatre itself with the audience, it was still dark. I think the camera equipment must have been turned off, because I have no recollection of sound, and it was still dark when I opened the curtains. But the lights came on almost immediately, and the screen, of course, was blank at that time, and then again, just seconds, he rose, and they took him in custody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close was your photographer to you?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t have any idea. He was there someplace shooting his pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he got a picture of that episode?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I thought he did until just the other day when they told me he didn’t. Apparently the filter in the camera was in the wrong place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Oswald had said something, if you would have heard it from where you were standing?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to hear the police officers as they were standing next to Oswald some 10 feet away from you?

Mr. ROBERTSON. All I can say about that is, if I heard them, what I heard was not significant, and I don’t recall having heard anything. I mean, there obviously was noise connected with it, but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Oswald had said something and you had heard it, do you think you would have remembered it?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If it had any significance to me, yes; but I really don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn’t, I wouldn’t have been there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after Oswald was apprehended and taken out of the theatre?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, we followed the officers and Oswald out of the theatre and then they put him in the squad car and drove downtown. We got our own car and returned to the station to leave the photographer, and then I went on down to the police station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much later was it that you arrived at the police station after Oswald was apprehended?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Judging by normal driving time, half an hour or 45 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at the police station?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Stood in the hall and asked questions of those people I knew, and listened to what was going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have dinner that night?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes; one of the fellows in the auto theft bureau bought some hamburgers and brought them up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never left the building?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; depending on what you mean here. I was not in that hall all the time. There were times that I was in the new section of the municipal building adjacent, in the city manager’s office, because the police department was reporting to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to Elgin Crull?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present at the time when they were reporting to him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about what kind of action they were reporting and what sort of control he was exercising over them?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I had the impression that their reports were advisory. They were keeping him posted as to how the investigation was progressing. There was one officer and I am not certain which one, who talked rather loud, and Mr. Crull had to hold the phone some distance from his ear in order to be comfortable. And it was as a result of that that I learned that they were definitely going to file both charges against Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when it was that you learned that, approximately?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Approximately 3:15 in the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the charges were not charged against Oswald until much later that night, isn’t that right?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you place it at approximately 3:15 in the afternoon that the decision to file had been made?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know how I placed it. This I can’t correlate in regard to anything else. If I could--now I assume I must have looked at a clock about that minute, because there has never been any question as to what the time was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you making notes as you were at the city hall in following out your assignment?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reporting back to anybody who was making any record of what you were observing?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I was reporting back to Mr. Walter Evans of our station, who at that time was the radio news director, keeping him advised of the information that I gathered, some of which we published and some of which we did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated when you talked to the FBI that you saw Jack Ruby sometime on November 22.

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time at which you saw him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, it was after 3:15. I can’t place the time accurately. I have tried to do so in my own mind. I am reasonably certain before I had this opportunity to eat, which my best estimate is after 7 o’clock, and before 8 o’clock. As I say, it was definitely after 3:15 after I had learned about the other. Between this time, I am at a loss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you place it in terms of the press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It was before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much before that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, I got the impression it was a considerable time before that, although time seemed very long in that afternoon and evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when Henry Wade and Chief Curry walked out of Captain Fritz’ office and the reporters crowded around and the decision was made to go down to the assembly room? Were you present at that time?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I was not. I was on the telephone in another room and I didn’t see Mr. Wade come out of Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after you got off that telephone, what did you do?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I learned that they were holding the press conference down in the basement, but I did something else first rather than go down there, because we had a man down there on television. I don’t recall just what else it was, but I had something I wanted to check on, so subsequently I went downstairs and I talked with Henry after the thing was over, briefly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would there be any possibility that you saw Jack Ruby between the time you got off the telephone call and went down to the basement?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s try to work backwards. Before you made this telephone call, do you recall what you had been doing? What did you make the telephone call about?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I have no recollection of that at all. It was one of a series of telephone calls that I can’t even give you any idea of how many, which was just a continual feeding of information into Walter Evans, and then trying to determine between ourselves which of this was valuable enough to publish and something that I would report on and what we ought to sit with until we got more confirmation, and that sort of thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to pinpoint time at all between the time you had your sandwich or hamburger and the time you made that telephone call?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Not in my own mind. Perhaps there is. If it is any help to you, if you have information on time which can go with this, it may narrow it down. It was before the police department changed for the first time their shift on guard at Captain Fritz’ door. It was, I am reasonably certain, during the first shift of the two officers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the officers who were on guard?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I do not. I believe--let me stress that word because I may be wrong about this, that it was after the first session of interrogation in Captain Fritz’ office. Whether it was while Oswald was upstairs, or after he had been brought back, I am not certain, but I believe it was after the first session of interrogation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there any question in your mind about that man that you did see was Jack Ruby up there on the floor?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I have no doubts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Suppose I told you that we interviewed the police officers who were on guard, and one of them says he recalls a man, who says he recognized Ruby, that he recalls a man who looks like Ruby, but it wasn’t Ruby, come up and do what you have previously described to the FBI, and go on. Would that shake your judgment in any way?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. I don’t, of course, claim that I cannot make a mistake. In my judgment, the man I saw was Jack Ruby. I know no one else who looks like that. Obviously, I could have been mistaken, but I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you think Jack Ruby, the man you think was Jack Ruby, what you recall him doing.

Mr. ROBERTSON. He walked up to the door of Captain Fritz’ office and put his hand on the knob and started to open it. He had the door open a few inches and began to step into the room, and the two officers stopped him. I was reasonably certain one of them, or some voice at that time had said, “You can’t go in there, Jack.” And the man in question, if it was not Jack Ruby, turned around and passed some joking remarks with a couple of people who were there, I don’t know who, and went back down the hall toward the elevator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how Jack Ruby was dressed on that occasion?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. All I saw was his head; as you know, he is a comparatively short man. I saw him through a break over some people’s shoulder, and all I saw was about, well, from the shoulders. Not all of the shoulders, but a portion of the shoulders, the neck and the head.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him; did you get a full front face view of him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. He was in profile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you standing in relationship to the homicide door and the main elevator, public elevator?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I was standing almost immediately opposite Captain Fritz’ door. Perhaps a matter of 2 feet beyond it toward the pressroom, which is opposite, the opposite direction of the elevators. As this happened, I stepped closer, and ultimately was on the elevator side of Captain Fritz’ door about the middle of the hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow Ruby on down the hall to see where he went?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many feet he would have walked before he got out of sight?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. He was out of my sight almost instantly in that melee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you say he walked on down the hall, could it have been that he just walked a few feet and stopped?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It could have been; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him come back down the hall in the other direction?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at your position after you saw Ruby?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I have no idea. Considerable length of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you standing there for?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Trying to get a chance to talk to Bill Alexander.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Alexander inside Fritz’ office at that time?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I wasn’t certain whether he was at that time or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you subsequently find out he was in there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I subsequently saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I saw him coming out of Captain Fritz’ office later. But now I have no idea how much later. I don’t know whether he had gone in in the meantime, or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you may have walked away and come back?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think Alexander was inside Fritz’ office?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Somebody had said so; I assume.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that if we knew when Alexander was at the police station, we might have a more accurate estimate?

Mr. ROBERTSON. He was in and out several times throughout the evening. As a matter of fact, I saw him three or four times up until late in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you saw Ruby, do you recall any of the other news representatives who were around there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No. There was a whole hall full, and I recall some of the people who were in the hall, but not necessarily in connection with that particular instant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe that the first time you were interviewed by the FBI was on January 17, 1964. Do you recall being interviewed by an FBI agent by the name of Scott?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe they called me and asked when I could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point, had they had any information that you had seen Ruby up there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe that there did come a time after these events occurred that you made a radio tape recounting your experiences of the 3 days?

Mr. ROBERTSON. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that tape made? I don’t ask for the exact date, but approximately.

Mr. ROBERTSON. I don’t know. At the time this question arose and the Commission asked the FBI if they would look into it further, Agent Drain contacted us and we tried to recall at that time precisely when the tape had been made, and couldn’t do so. To the best of our recollection, it was sometime around the first of the year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would your best estimate be that at least a month passed before you made this tape?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Sunday, November 24, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you report to anybody in your station that you had seen Ruby?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you tell that to?

Mr. ROBERTSON. To Walter Evans.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this used in any way as part of a newscast?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I doubt that it would have been used for a newscast. I had been under the impression that I had mentioned it in connection with a wrap-up broadcast that we had done shortly after the events, within a week or so. When all of this came up, I mentioned that, and Walter said that he recollects it was not included in that, and I believe he checked the material. But I had thought we had. I thought I talked about it at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you think back over how your own recollection of this event has evolved, have there been any changes in your mind about, in other words, as you first reported this to Evans? Has there been any difference in your conception of what had happened when you reported on it to Evans, as opposed to what it is now in your mind?

Mr. ROBERTSON. You mean have the events or descriptions changed any?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I mean to say is, very often the first time we think about this, we will describe it in one way, and then as we think about it and talk about it again, why in our own mind it changes and our description changes. Has that happened in connection with this event at all?

Mr. ROBERTSON. If it has, I am not aware of it. The only way in which I would say some sort of mutation of this sort has taken place is that, looking back from this perspective, I don’t feel so greatly that thundering herd in the hall as I did at that time. I am further removed and it seems more of an abstraction. It was at the time, frankly indescribable, in my judgment. But other than that, I can’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned when you talked with one of the FBI agents that in the time you had seen Ruby, you had seen him bawling out his fellow employees. Can you give us some specific instances of that?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I remember one particular--I am sorry I can’t say when--I can’t even say which girl it was--and I recall I only heard a portion of the conversation. Apparently the girl had been running around with someone of whom Jack didn’t approve, and the gist of the conversation, as I understood it at the time, and this was fragmentary, was you either leave this guy alone or find some place else to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if you know any of these people. Do you know Ruby’s stripper, Little Lynn?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know her before November 22?

Mr. ROBERTSON. Not as far as I know. I don’t know her now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his stripper, Kathy Kay?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know his roommate, George Senator?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No; I never met Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you downtown at all on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any information which might indicate how Ruby got into the police department on Sunday morning?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I heard one story, and I have no idea whether there is any validity to it or not. The story I heard was that he had gained entrance to the basement by helping a camera crew push a camera down the ramp, that he had attached himself to the crew pushing the camera, and got in that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything that would indicate that any police officer gave him any assistance or any advice?

Mr. ROBERTSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of the interview report that the FBI made after talking with you. The first one is a report made by Special Agent Paul Scott of an interview he had with you on January 17, 1964, and it consists of three pages, and are numbered at the bottom of the page, 10, 11, and 12, and I am going to mark this at the top “Victor Robertson, Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.” I would like you to look at it, Mr. Robertson, and read it over and tell me if there are any changes or corrections that you would make in it. I really have particular reference to whether or not that is an accurate report of what you said at the time.

Mr. ROBERTSON (after reading report). The only comment I would make about the report is that where it says, “While at Houston Street with Hugh Aynesworth, a WFAA photographer, he heard on a police radio that Officer Tippit had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he and Aynesworth proceeded to Oak Cliff.” Aynesworth was not the photographer. There were two separate people. The other thing I would comment on is, in the second paragraph, Mr. Scott reports accurately that I had seen Ruby, and said sometime possibly between 5 and 7 p.m., which is what I told him and was my best judgment as to the time, although it may have been slightly somewhere between 3:15 and 7 or 8 p.m. That is what I told him and I answered to my best judgment on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In light of the conversation that we have had today, is that still your best judgment or would you narrow it in some other way?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I can’t narrow it. The only thing that I can do is really broaden it to be sure that it is comprehensive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the latest you would place it at?

Mr. ROBERTSON. I believe the latest possibly would have been 7 or 7:30 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as Victor Robertson’s Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. This is a document that consists of two pages, and it is an interview report by FBI Agent Vincent E. Drain, of an interview he had with you on June 9, 1964. I ask you to read it and comment on that in the same way that you did on the first one.

Mr. ROBERTSON (after reading report). The only comment I would make on this is at the end of the second paragraph. Mr. Drain has stated that the first time Ruby was mentioned by him was on a portion of the time that he reported in late December, 1963, etc., etc. This apparently is Vincent’s report of the consensus that was true at the time. As I said, I mentioned to him I thought I had had it in the earlier broadcast, but Walter Evans said it had not been. The other observation I would make is that I don’t recall having said between 5 and 6 o’clock. I thought I had said between 5 and 7.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you then if you will sign each of these exhibits up near the top where I have marked them.

Mr. ROBERTSON. Is this all right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any place that is conspicuous.

Mr. ROBERTSON (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your taking out this time.

Mr. ROBERTSON. My pleasure. If there is anything else I can do, let me know.

TESTIMONY OF FREDERIC RHEINSTEIN

The testimony of Frederic Rheinstein was taken at 10:30 a.m., on July 22, 1964, at 120 Linden Avenue, Long Beach, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Frederic Rheinstein, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Frederic Rheinstein.

Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to give your testimony in this matter, haven’t you, by a letter? Did you receive a letter?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You haven’t been advised of the rules of the Commission?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, you are willing to testify, though, aren’t you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I am.

Mr. BALL. The purpose of the Commission is to investigate into the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and in the course of that investigation there is also an investigation into the murder of Oswald at the police station in Dallas.

Now, what is your occupation?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I am a producer-director for NBC News.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with NBC News?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, I have been with NBC 15 years, and with NBC News about 8.

Mr. BALL. And what is your age?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Thirty-six.

Mr. BALL. What was your education before you went with NBC?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I have a bachelor of arts degree from Princeton University.

Mr. BALL. And you went with NBC after your graduation?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. 4906 Encino Avenue, Encino, Calif.

Mr. BALL. Were you in Dallas on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Starting at approximately 5 o’clock Dallas time.

Mr. BALL. And that was on a Friday, was it not?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you commence broadcasting about that time?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. From WBAP Fort Worth, Tex., which is the NBC affiliate for the Dallas area.

Mr. BALL. And at any time later did you go over to Dallas with a sound truck?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Very early Saturday morning we took a WBAP remote television truck to the city jail in Dallas, I would guess at approximately 7:30 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park the truck, just describe it in general?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Approximately in front of the entrance to the city hall and directly adjacent to the ramp to the police department basement.

Mr. BALL. That’s good enough.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. With the front of the truck facing the Hilton Hotel.

Mr. BALL. Now, it was reported that during the day a man was around your sound truck, you saw him around there several times, and that you noticed him particularly because he was there around your sound truck three or four times; is that right?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then later on, the next day, on Saturday when you saw his picture----

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Excuse me, Sunday.

Mr. BALL. On Sunday?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On Sunday when you saw his picture you thought that you identified him as the man who had been around your truck; is that right?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And who was that?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That was Jack Ruby.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it’s your impression that you saw Jack Ruby around your sound truck on Saturday, November the 23d?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. About when is the first time that you saw him there?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. To the best of my recollection, I would say it was late morning.

Mr. BALL. Before lunch?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Before lunch.

Mr. BALL. And just tell in your own words what you noticed then and what he did and what you saw.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. My initial impression of Ruby was that a man, whom we later identified as Ruby, put his head through the open window of our remote truck very near the television monitors and was interestedly watching the pictures on the monitor. He caused me to look up because in putting his head through the window he put aside a curtain allowing light into the otherwise darkened truck.

Mr. BALL. How close were you to him at that time?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say about 3 feet. No more than 3 feet. He made no impression, because there had been several other people who had done this; not a large number of people, but it was an irritant, so his face became fixed. Do you want me to go on?

Mr. BALL. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Subsequently, in walking around outside the truck later I saw the same man, and I believe in person twice more and I believe I saw him during the day on our television monitors, which were not at the time necessarily being broadcast, although they were being taped possibly back in Fort Worth, but the electronic cameras are on all the time and this man passed by. He was later pointed out----

Mr. BALL. By “passed by,” you mean on the sidewalk?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No; in the corridors.

Mr. BALL. Oh, in the corridors?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. In the corridors.

Mr. BALL. What floor?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had cameras on the third floor and cameras on the ground floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, you believe----

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say both times when we saw him he was on the third floor.

Mr. BALL. And he passed the cameras?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And that was during the daytime or evening?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would all be during the daytime on Saturday.

Mr. BALL. And would that be in the morning or the afternoon that you saw him?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. It would be in the morning and in the afternoon. The most pointed appearance, or the most memorable appearance of his followed an incident that took place thusly--do you want me to go ahead?

Mr. BALL. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. An unidentified WBAP engineer alleged that the man we had seen around the truck, subsequently identified as Ruby, had taken one of the fried chicken dinners which had been brought into the truck for the WBAP crew. This allegation was made when he was seen on the third floor going into an office in which District Attorney Henry Wade was purportedly working. The reason this was significant was that reporters had not been permitted inside that office, and this man whom the cameraman pointed out as the same one who had earlier been around the truck had gained access where newsmen had been unable to gain access.

Mr. BALL. Now, would that be after lunch?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would be after lunch, because this was all tied up with he being the fellow who allegedly took the fried chicken dinner.

Mr. BALL. And you had ordered the fried chicken for your lunch, had you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had ordered 14 fried chicken dinners to feed the group.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, this incident, then, must have occurred in the afternoon of the 23d of November?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And did you see it on your screen?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I saw the man who I am reasonably certain was Ruby go into a door where Henry Wade purportedly was. I did not see him come out.

Mr. BALL. He went in, but you didn’t see him come out?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. He went in. He was later reported to have come out and he was followed in about 10 minutes by District Attorney Wade who then became available for questioning by newsmen.

Mr. BALL. Was it reported or did anybody tell you, any of your men tell you why this man had gone into Wade’s office?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. The cameraman and stage manager reported to me on the earphones that this man, who was never, by the way, identified by name, always referred to as “the creep who was down at the truck,” had told them that he knew Wade personally and he could get some information for us or he could get him to come out and talk to us. Both during that day and, of course, during the following days, in discussions with the newsmen around there, there seems no question about the fact that the most distinguishing thing about Ruby was his desire to be friendly with the press and also to indicate that he had an entree--not necessarily influence, but an entree into the police rooms and premises at city hall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see him later that day in or around your truck?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. The last time we would have seen him--the last time I saw him either in person or on the television screen was when he walked in the door where Wade allegedly was.

Mr. BALL. And that was in the afternoon?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. That would be in the afternoon; right.

Mr. BALL. Before dinnertime?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Oh, yes; it would have been, because we left there at 5:30, to go to WBAP to continue broadcasting.

Mr. BALL. Then it would have been before 5 that you saw him go into Wade’s office?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes; I would say so. Certainly before 6.

Mr. BALL. And how many times do you think you saw him on the street, on the sidewalk?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would say once on the sidewalk, once in the truck--or once poking his face into the truck, and twice with our cameras.

Mr. BALL. And the entire span of time, then, was sometime late in the morning until not later than 5 in the afternoon?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Five to six; right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you mentioned the fact that you didn’t know this man’s name that you saw these several times.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No; I didn’t.

Mr. BALL. And the next day you did alone identify the picture of Ruby as the man you had seen the day before, or were there some others who agreed with you that they had seen him?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. There were a good number of the men of the same crew that identified him.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, when was it that you did identify him, tell me the circumstances.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We identified him--the first time we took a good look at his face, at his picture, was a mug shot which was a front and profile shot which somebody obtained while still wet on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department, and our reporter was Pettit, Tom Pettit, and he held the mug shot in front of the electronic camera where it was transmitted to a tape machine where it was taped, and on both looking at it at the first time and on subsequent replays of the tape we were certain that this was the man we had seen around the truck. We certainly had his name almost immediately, because as soon as he was shot a number of people recognized him and we got the name right to our reporter, who was actually there while he was shot, which was Tom Pettit.

Mr. BALL. Then the first time you heard his name was on Sunday after the shooting?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. We had his name about 10 minutes or less than 10 minutes after he shot him, actually. NBC did, and we were late because we were all out-of-towners.

Mr. BALL. Then when you saw the mug shot, when your group saw the mug shot on a replay of the tape you knew the name of the man?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, how many of you were around the camera or how many of you saw the mug shot?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I would guess the discussion was had with about four or five people. Basically the men who work in the truck. And, I’m sorry, I can get the names of the men who were there for you, but I----

Mr. BALL. You don’t have the names now?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. There are too many trucks and too many things. There would be a switcher and a director and a video engineer and an audio man.

Mr. BALL. They were all Fort Worth people, were they?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. All WBAP, Fort Worth, and they were the same group who had been with us constantly. And there was a technical supervisor who also was there. I can put their faces to you, but I can’t give you their names.

Mr. BALL. You don’t remember their names. Now, I will turn to another subject, Mr. Rheinstein. Did you go in the police building on Saturday and on Sunday?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You weren’t there on Sunday, were you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were at the police building on Sunday?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, I had two mobile units on Sunday morning because they were moving him from the city to the county. I started at the city, made sure the cameras were all in place and----

Mr. BALL. That’s in the basement of the city hall?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes. One was in the basement, two were actually on the third floor, and, as a matter of fact, what we were trying to do was move one of the cameras from the third floor down to the basement, so I left instructions to do that and went down to the county jail where we had another mobile unit, for the first time, and we had a communications setup where I would, since I knew everything, I would call the shots, so to speak, from the county. Right before they were going to move him I came back for a last minute check at the city jail, and actually at the time of the shooting I was at the county jail. About 30 minutes later, 40, 40 minutes probably, after the shooting, and after we went off the air, I came back, we dispatched the county jail unit to the hospital and I came back and operated once again out of the city jail, so I was there a number of times.

Mr. BALL. You were at the county jail, then, at the time of the actual shooting?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. At the time of the shooting I was calling the shots in the other mobile unit.

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, on Saturday when you went into the various parts of the building that were being used by the Dallas Police Department, were you ever asked to identify yourself in order to get in?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I think conceivably once I was asked to show a credential.

Mr. BALL. What about on Sunday morning when you went into the basement?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No.

Mr. BALL. Were you asked to show a credential?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No. In fairness to the Dallas Police Department, I would offer the fact that a guy who has been out there in a mobile unit for over the period of time I was there, I was recognized.

Mr. BALL. As a man with NBC?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. As a man with NBC.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. And as a director, you know.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you go down the ramp in the morning, on Sunday morning?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you walk down the ramp?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone at that time?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I had a cameraman with me.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a camera?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Well, the electronic camera was already down there, although later on I supervised the moving of a camera down there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a badge on display?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No.

Mr. BALL. Did the cameraman have a badge on display?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. No. This was one of our problems, because after the shooting they insisted on badges and the WBAP--although I carry a Los Angeles Police Department Badge, which proved sufficient, the WBAP men had no identification.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have the first name of a cameraman at WBAP, Herman.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Yes; that’s the wrong first name, it’s Homer.

Mr. BALL. Homer?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. And I still can’t remember the last name. But he and I, Belli subpenaed he and I down in Dallas on the trial. We never got on the stand. I can’t think of his name.

Mr. BALL. Then there was a reporter named Pettit, you have mentioned his name.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Tom Pettit; right.

Mr. BALL. Then a film man from Shreveport, La.

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Whose name still escapes me.

Mr. BALL. He is a free lancer?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right.

Mr. BALL. And he was just working for you that day?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. He was working over that 3-day period.

Mr. BALL. As a film man for you?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. Right. Either of these men’s names are available if you want to call up.

Mr. BALL. Would you do that and call it in?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I sure will.

Mr. BALL. I think that’s all. Is there anything else you would like to tell us or that you think would be of any assistance to us in the investigation? Do you know anything else other than what you have already told us about the problem?

Mr. RHEINSTEIN. I really don’t. I really don’t. You know, I don’t think this is particularly valid for the record, but my overall impression was that Ruby had no particular in with the Dallas police, he was--if you work in the news business there is a type, and you know this a lot better than I do, who enjoys authority, and to ingratiate himself into what he considers high places he does almost anything. The general attitude of the police and the people of the Dallas press and whatnot of Ruby is that he was sort of a nuisance, but an omnipresent nuisance, you know, he was the kind of guy you just accepted there, and I have always said this is just the kind of guy who becomes practically inconspicuous because he is well enough known as a nuisance type, and I have always--my own personal conviction, which is worth absolutely nothing, is that if there had been not a newsman in the place, somebody would have been sure to find Ruby there and pushed him out of the way, but Ruby would have been able to get in simply because he was such a familiar type, you know, everybody there just knew who he was. I never found anybody who said anything endearing about him. That’s all I can say.

Mr. BALL. That’s all, then, I guess.

TESTIMONY OF ICARUS M. PAPPAS

The testimony of Icarus M. Pappas was taken at 9 a.m., on July 29, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to introduce myself for the record.

My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress, in November of last year. As you probably know, the Commission has been directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to President Johnson on all the facts we are able to determine.

We have asked you to come here in particular this morning, Mr. Pappas, because you were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th, and you had occasion to meet Jack Ruby.

Now, under the rules of the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition. I might also add that under the Commission’s rules, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice in writing before you appear here. So I would ask you at the outset if you did receive a letter from us and when it was that you actually received it.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; actually, I received it Monday afternoon, this being Wednesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then we have not complied with the 3-day notice requirement. But I see you are here. And I presume you are willing to waive the notice requirement.

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes; that is why I came here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any questions you would want to ask me about the deposition we are going to take before we get into it?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think so. I think I may have a question as we go along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Feel free to ask it.

If you will raise your right hand--do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAPPAS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your name?

Mr. PAPPAS. Icarus M. Pappas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. PAPPAS. 301 East 48th Street, Manhattan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. New York?

Mr. PAPPAS. New York City.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living there in November of 1963?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you employed at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. WNEW Radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you still employed there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a New York radio station?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you happen to be in Dallas on the 22d of November?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you arrived in Dallas?

Mr. PAPPAS. Approximately 8 p.m., Dallas time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that when you arrived at the airport?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Dallas Police and Courts building some time later that evening?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. It was the city hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did it take you to get out there? When would you expect you arrived?

Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly 8:30, 8:20. It took us as long as it takes to get from the airport to the city hall. And I believe it is about 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you went directly to the city hall?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other people with you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was with you at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. There were several other reporters and photographers from New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember their names?

Mr. PAPPAS. Only one that I can remember. His name was Bill Saro.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he with?

Mr. PAPPAS. He left United Press--he is with the Herald Tribune, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was with United Press at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. I believe he was with the Herald Tribune at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

You used the word Saro, and it sounds a little like Carroll. I notice in one of the interviews the FBI had with you they reported that one of the people you were with was a man by the name of Carroll, Mickey Carroll of the New York Herald Tribune. Is this the same person?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; Carroll was later on. We worked together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Now, when you arrived at the city hall, where did you first go?

Mr. PAPPAS. We went to the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you check in with any of the officials there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were stopped at the elevator by a police captain, I think, or a lieutenant--some officer--he checked our credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived, was there any procedure set up for identifying and screening newsmen that you were aware of?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, only the procedure I described--that there was a man posted at the elevator who asked for my identification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not asked to check in with any central office?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time while you were there were you given any instructions by the police department as to where you were to be, where you were allowed to be, and what procedures, if any, were to be followed?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were instructed that we were not to be in the office, the homicide office, where the questioning was going on. We were in the corridor, on the third floor. We were not told--I don’t think that any limitations were drawn, or any boundaries beyond which we could not go were laid out for us, except that we were not allowed into the homicide office. And they had a guard outside to make sure of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you aware of anyone in the police department who was performing liaison responsibilities with the press, or who had some special designation as a person that members of the press should contact?

Mr. PAPPAS. No, no; later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Later meaning----

Mr. PAPPAS. I am talking about the trial. They had a public relations man. The thought flashed across my mind. But that was during the second time I was in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your activities at the police department between the time you arrived and about midnight when District Attorney Wade held a press conference down in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I performed the job I was sent there to do--mainly to gather information and to report back to New York on it. I stayed on the third floor hoping to get interviews with people who might have seen the assassination, and I was required by my office to report back immediately, which I did. I went across the street to the White Plaza Hotel, made a phone call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time would that have been? How soon after you arrived?

Mr. PAPPAS. I would say 45 minutes, and that is only an approximation, because I have not thought about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have access to the phones in the police department for communication with New York?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; but not immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that come about?

Mr. PAPPAS. After midnight for me, sometime after midnight, well into the morning, when things had settled down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember--let me ask you this. You did have occasion to meet Jack Ruby while you were in Dallas?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall seeing Jack Ruby at any time before the press conference that Henry Wade held on Friday night?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I did not meet him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a reporter from one of the Washington newspapers by the name of O’Leary?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; not by name. Perhaps by sight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you this because in talking with O’Leary, O’Leary had the recollection that he met Ruby with you on the third floor of the Dallas Police Department sometime before the press conference, and he thought it was in the vicinity of the public elevators. Do you recall anything like that?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t recall that; no. If this incident happened, if O’Leary is right about the person that he was with, I don’t remember it. Perhaps somebody--I don’t even know who it was that I was with that night. There was a lot of confusion. If this person was Jack Ruby, he didn’t do anything that would make that occurrence stick in my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might be able to identify O’Leary, a little better for you, by indicating that he explained to us that on Sunday you and he had worked out a procedure whereby you figured out whether you could, by running, beat the elevator from the third floor down to the basement. As I recall his explanation, he said that you rode on the elevator and he ran down the stairs, and you two found that he could run down the stairs before the elevator could get down there. Do you remember that episode?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t. I think O’Leary has me mistaken for someone else. I don’t recall that at all.

This was Sunday, of course, the day of the killing of Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t recall that incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Henry Wade came out of the homicide office just before the conference was held in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. Friday night, you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how close you were to the homicide door, and what happened that you recall?

Mr. PAPPAS. As I recall it, I was at the head of the corridor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where is the head?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near the public elevators?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it is near the public elevators; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or were you closer to the homicide room?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is in an “L” form. As you come out of the elevators, you have to turn left to go down the corridor. Well, from the elbow, let’s say, of the “L” to the homicide office, I couldn’t judge--perhaps 30 or 40 feet, roughly. I don’t know. But I was--if we are using that standard that I just described, I was approximately 30 feet from Mr. Wade, who was coming out of the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when Wade came out?

Mr. PAPPAS. I listened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened?

Mr. PAPPAS. Then everybody crowded around him and they said, “What do you have to say, Henry? What about this? What about that?” And he started to talk, and a lot of people protested, they said they could not hear him, the Nation was listening, they wanted to know who this fellow Oswald was. He finally agreed, I believe--he said, “Okay, let’s all go downstairs.”

I didn’t know where downstairs was, but I said to myself if that is where they are all going, that is where I am going. And I asked someone beside me, and said, “Where are we going?” and he said, “They are going to hold a press conference downstairs.” I said, “Great.” And I followed Chief Curry and District Attorney Wade downstairs, where we all jammed into the lineup room, I suppose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself in the assembly room in relationship to Henry Wade?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were all in there first, before Wade came in. He stayed outside for awhile. I set my microphone up, or tried to get in position with the other microphones which were on the table. And we all expected Wade to come over there to deliver his statement, and also to answer questions. Actually, Wade placed himself in position to me, which was right next to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby while you were in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any conversation or any remarks that Jack Ruby made to Henry Wade while in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after--how long is it you estimate that the press conference lasted in the assembly room?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think I could estimate that. I don’t know. I really didn’t pay any attention to the length of the press conference. I don’t want to mislead you. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after the press conference ended?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, afterward is a long time. You mean immediately afterward?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately afterward.

Mr. PAPPAS. Let’s see. Yes--I wanted to talk to Henry Wade, wanted to get a personal interview with him. And he did give us one or two statements, and then he wandered out, everybody else was wandering out. And I decided that I would try to get Henry Wade on the telephone directly to my office in New York. I went outside. I saw some other reporters--I didn’t know who they were, but they knew the ropes, I suppose, of the police station, and they were using the phones out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where, specifically, was this?

Mr. PAPPAS. At the reception area, outside of the lineup room. There is a long reception desk, with other desks behind the long reception desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with what is called the records room of the police department?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I suppose--was that the records room--I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am getting to. If you knew what the records room was, that would be my next question.

Mr. PAPPAS. Specifically I didn’t know whether they called it the records room. It looked like a registration area to me. They did have a lot of desks, files, people doing clerical work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know which room is the jail office, don’t you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the room that you are talking about now, was that the jail office?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; this was the area immediately outside of the lineup room. The jail office is a much smaller area, and it is enclosed. And this was a wider, broader room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephones were located in that particular room that you are talking about?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; they were on a counter-like affair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to go into the room to use the telephones, or could you stand in the hallway next to the counter?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, as I recall it, when you stepped out of the lineup room, you were in the other room. And the phones were right there on the counter. In other words, the thing that marked off the room, or the beginning of the room, apparently, was the counter. And on the counter were the telephones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what you did then, at that point. You picked up a telephone, or what happened?

Mr. PAPPAS. Henry Wade was on the phone to other radio stations, I imagine, or to other newsrooms, because he was being asked a question, and he was answering into a telephone. This is a technique that we use. I felt that it would be more expeditious for me to do it that way. And I picked up a phone, after Henry Wade had gotten toward the end of his interview--I picked up a phone and dialed New York, and I asked him, “Could you do this interview with me?” and he said, “Yes, but I have another phone call over there.” And he pointed across the room. Somebody had said, “Come over here.” I don’t know whether he recognized him or what. But he left my telephone, and I don’t know whether I hung up, or whether I had them wait in New York for me to get him back. But at any rate, this disturbed me, because it was long distance, and I had promised them this interview, and I wasn’t coming through with it immediately, and this is always frustrating.

It was at this point that I ran into Ruby--the first time that I recall. He came up to me as I was waiting for Wade and he said, “Where are you from?” I said, “New York.” He said, “Are you a reporter?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “How long are you going to be in town?” And I said, “I will be here as long as it takes to do this story.” And he reached into his pocket, and he pulled out a card. It said the Carousel Club on it. And I was amazed. I didn’t know who he was or what he was. My immediate impression of him was that he was a detective. He was well dressed, nattily dressed, I imagine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his clothing?

Mr. PAPPAS. It was a dark suit. Whether it was gray or not, I don’t know. But he had on a gray hat, fedora. And I looked at the card. I couldn’t imagine what was happening.

It said, “Jack Ruby, your host,” on it. I said, “Are you Jack Ruby?” He said, “Yes; come on over to the club if you get a chance--you can have some drinks”--or something like that--“there are girls there.” And then he disappeared. Naturally I had other things on my mind at the time. I must have put the card in my pocket. And----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Can you describe his mood? Was it straightforward, was it somber, businesslike, was it exhilarated?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I would not call it exhilarated. I would say that he was in a very animated mood. He moved quickly, and he spoke quickly. Of course, I cannot tell you what his mood is, because I don’t know the man. Maybe this is the way he is naturally. Maybe when he is in a mood he is somber. I don’t know. But to me he appeared very worked up by the happenings, by the activity, by the people, by the reporters, by the cameras, by the flashguns, and everything else. He seemed, as I said before, very animated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have the card that he gave you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; I don’t have it personally. I have it--someone has it. It is a magazine editor who is keeping it. He wanted to see it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened after Jack left you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I still had to get Henry Wade. He was on the telephone, on this long interview. I was trying to get him over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you calling to Wade, or making any indication?

Mr. PAPPAS. He knew I wanted him on the phone.

Then it was awhile, and he had some other people to talk to. Then I think he had another phone call. Anyway, he was occupied, and Ruby came back. He darted past me again. I was still in this frustrated--this look on my face. He said, “What’s the matter?” I said, “I am trying to get Henry Wade over to the telephone.” He said, “Do you want me to get him?” I said, “Well, if you can, certainly, I can use any help I can get. I don’t know the area.” At least these are the thoughts going through my mind. I don’t know whether I said that to him or not. But I said, “Yes, I would like to have him over here.” And he went around the desk, over to Henry Wade on the telephone. I don’t know what they said to each other, but Ruby pointed over to me, and Henry looked up, and then Ruby came back and he just left. I don’t know whether he said it will be okay, or what, but he just darted out again, out of the enclosure. And in a short while, Henry Wade finished up his telephone conversation and came over to my phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby didn’t actually accompany Wade over, then?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I don’t think he waited.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it that you don’t have any recollection of it, or do you feel certain----

Mr. PAPPAS. I am sure Henry Wade came over by himself, because Henry was on the phone for several minutes after Ruby spoke to him. I imagine he was wrapping up his conversation before coming over to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what happened when Wade came over?

Mr. PAPPAS. I did the interview with him to New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still have a copy of that interview?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t think so, because this was not done on my tape recorder, as I said. I think we have a copy of a portion of it, because when it did get up to New York--I don’t know really whether it was used on the air or not. I imagine it was. And when we do use them, we edit them down. So I believe we have all of our tapes from last year. And if it was used, we have it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the telephone number that you called in New York?

Mr. PAPPAS. MO 1-3621.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a collect call?

Mr. PAPPAS. It was--I could not tell you, I am not sure. I think it had to be, because I could not call directly from the phone. I would say I assume it was collect. I cannot recall whether I called collect or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a credit card?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; we reverse the charges usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished the interview with Wade?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, then he disappeared and I went out back into the lineup room where the Justice of the Peace Johnston, was holding an interview with other reporters, and he was reading the initial charge, I believe, against Oswald, to us. And I did an interview with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Ruby there at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do after that?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, after that I went--I got through with Johnston, and then I went over to a radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. KLIF, yes. I forget what time this was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do--how did you get into KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. I rang the bell downstairs, I believe, knocked on the door. Somebody came down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you do when you got in there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I had to prepare a lot of material for the morning. I had a lot of tape to feed to New York. And I worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you see Jack Ruby while you were at KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember having anything to eat at KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you get that from?

Mr. PAPPAS. From one of the diskjockeys there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you have?

Mr. PAPPAS. I had sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Corned beef sandwiches?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t know. I am not sure. I don’t know what type they were. Might have been corned beef.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people we have talked to at KLIF recall that you were present when Ruby was there. Do you have any recollection of that?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; this is absolutely incorrect.

Now, the sandwiches were there when I arrived. I had not eaten. And I was very happy to have a sandwich. It was quite good, also. And I had a bottle of pop, and I said this is terrific, where did you get all this? And the person I spoke to said, “Oh, some guy brought them up.” And I said, “Great.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge at the time you were there, would you have been able to have seen Ruby in the place if he were there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I am sure if he was--if he was in the same area I was, certainly. I don’t know whether he was or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would depend on how many rooms the radio station has. Were you in the newsroom?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t believe they have a newsroom as such. They have an area off of a control room which has some teletypes in it. I guess if that is their newsroom--yes; I was in the newsroom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in any of the broadcast studios? Were you in any of those?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; you see, the area that I was describing serves, from what I could tell, as a newsroom, as a broadcasting area, and as a control area, also, control room, because the person on the air was speaking into a microphone, broadcasting and doing his own control work while the teletypes were going, I believe, right in the same room, with all of us. I was having a sandwich while he was broadcasting, and I was doing my own work, as I recall. Wait a minute now. No; there is another studio next to it--that is right. At any rate, there is a control area and a studio, and I think the one that I was in that Friday night served as a broadcast studio, also. But there is another studio right next door to it, and you can see into it. There is a big glass panel there and everything; else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any way of fixing the time that you were at KLIF?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; it was early in the morning. I am not quite sure when. Maybe 2:30. I don’t know. It was well into the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been as late as 3 o’clock in the morning?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been any earlier than 2 o’clock in the morning?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is difficult for me to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the people whom you met there?

Mr. PAPPAS. I don’t recall the names offhand. I have a mental image of one person, but I cannot recall his name immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a fellow by the name of Russ Knight, called The Weird Beard?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he at the studio when you were there that night?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people at the studio?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes; there was one other person. He is the person I have a mental picture of, but I cannot think of his name right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name Glenn Duncan?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the man?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Saturday, what time did you arrive at the police department?

Mr. PAPPAS. I am afraid that Saturday--I went directly from the station to the police station. I didn’t get any sleep at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. On, I remained there until Saturday night at approximately 8:45 or so, 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to fix at all where you would have been between 3, Saturday afternoon, and 6 o’clock Saturday evening--that is to say, can you tell us if you were up on the third floor during that period?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I was there most of the day. I am sure I had occasion to be there from 3 to 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you station yourself permanently up on the third floor, or were you throughout the building the day that you were there, on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were throughout the building; yes. I was, I would say, all over the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all at the police department on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed being taken when you were at the police department on Saturday, first of all with respect to the admission of newspaper people onto the third floor?

Mr. PAPPAS. They were following the same procedure, posting a man, two men, sometimes three men, at the elevator doors, and checking, I suppose the credentials of the people who came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your credentials checked on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes. I wear my police badge in a situation like that, or the New York City press card, which is issued by the police department, so that it was visible all the time. They had checked it. So I suppose they didn’t want to check it again, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Lee Oswald moved at any time through the third floor hallway when you were there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of protection was provided for Oswald that you recall in moving him?

Mr. PAPPAS. He was given a police escort. Whenever they were going to move him, they would have all of the reporters clear a way through the corridor. We were all jammed in, and they cleared a path through the mass of bodies. And then Oswald would be taken out by detectives and uniformed police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close could you get to Oswald as he was being moved?

Mr. PAPPAS. Right next to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you leave the police department on Saturday?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, roughly 9, 9:15 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the time you left, had you heard anything about the movement of Lee Oswald the next day?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had you heard?

Mr. PAPPAS. We had heard just before we were sent home, that he was--that he was not going to be moved that night. We heard that from Chief Curry. He said, and I remember his quote--he said, “We plan to move this man not tonight.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about what time he would be moved the next day that you recall?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was sort of a question and answer thing. The questioning went like this. After he said--we were all wondering whether we were going to have to spend the entire night at the station. And--you know, waiting for Oswald’s departure. And we were quite relieved when Mr. Curry came out and he said that they did not plan to move him that night--at least I did--I wanted to get some sleep. I hadn’t slept in a couple of days. And the reporters started to question him. And the questioning went like this:

“When will you move him?”

“Well, if you boys would be here by 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, that will be early enough.”

And someone yelled, “Do you plan to move him at 10 o’clock?”

And the answer was something to this effect--“Well, if you boys get here by 10 o’clock”--or “It won’t be any later than 10 o’clock.”

And we all got the pretty good impression that is when they were going to move him.

He didn’t come out and say, “We will move him tomorrow at 10 o’clock.”

But we all got the distinct impression that is when it was going to be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive back at the police department on Sunday morning?

Mr. PAPPAS. At 9:15, 9:20.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you go at that point?

Mr. PAPPAS. Went to Chief Curry’s office. Third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually go inside the office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes--into the chief’s complex of offices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what happened when you got in there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, when I got there he was talking to some reporters, having another press conference, about Oswald’s activities overnight, what he had for breakfast, and things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At any time before Oswald was actually brought down in the basement, did you receive any indication, either by what you observed or by what someone told you, or by what you overheard, with respect to the manner in which he was going to be moved, or the route by which he was to be moved, or the time or circumstances under which he would be moved?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told that he was going to be moved in an armored car, or an armored truck. And someone at the window said, “There is an armored truck downstairs.” And there was one. I just got a glimpse of it. I don’t know whether he was trying to back into the garage at the time or not. I can’t recall.

And we asked him why the armored truck. And he said, “Well, our police cars are not bullet proof.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Curry said that?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the armored truck arrived, did you have any indication that the armored truck might be on its way to the police station?

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I didn’t see the armored truck arrive. Somebody just said there is an armored truck.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean before you saw the armored truck the first time--did you have any idea that the armored truck was going to be used at all before you saw it down there?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, we were told by Curry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long before you actually saw the truck?

Mr. PAPPAS. Almost immediately before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do then, when you saw the armored truck?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I went back to talking to Curry. He was waiting around up there. People were asking him questions. He was passing the time of day, and we were getting information.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later is it you estimate that Oswald was finally moved out of the homicide office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Let’s see. Later than what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, than this particular episode you have just been describing, talking with Curry, and having seen the armored car.

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, Curry left. A lot of other reporters left. It was about 11 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am probably not making myself clear. How much time elapsed between the time that you finished talking with Curry, after having seen the armored car, and the time that Oswald was actually moved?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, I would say 20 minutes, 25 minutes. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on the third floor when Oswald was taken out of the homicide office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do when he was brought out of the office?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, I saw Captain Fritz coming out first, and Oswald was behind him. I walked up to Fritz and I asked him a question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have your tape recorder with you?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any tapes of what took place up there in the hallway at that time?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they be available for us to listen to?

Mr. PAPPAS. You have them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have that particular tape?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is one of the tapes you had given to the FBI?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I might ask you right now then if you recall what--generally what were the contents of these various tapes which you gave the FBI?

Mr. PAPPAS. I gave them only one tape--the tape in the hallway, and the actual shooting of Oswald by Ruby. It was all on one reel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Oswald got past you up there on the third floor, what did you do?

Mr. PAPPAS. I went down to the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ran down the stairs?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long before Oswald emerged from the jail office was it that you arrived down there in the basement?

Mr. PAPPAS. Roughly a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you see happen as Oswald came out?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oswald came out. There were two detectives on either side of him. Captain Fritz was leading the way. There were other detectives behind him. Detectives behind, both walls from the exit to the jail, the basement walls. Oswald came right past me, and I did as many of us did throughout those 2 days, I shouted a question at him. And then I noticed a black blur, and I noticed a bang--I heard a bang, rather, I recall a flash, and then pandemonium.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack Ruby say anything as he moved toward Oswald?

Mr. PAPPAS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think if he had said something, that you would have heard it?

Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on how loudly he said it. If he whispered it, certainly I could not hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But if he had spoken in a normal voice?

Mr. PAPPAS. If he had spoken in a normal voice--that would be difficult for me to tell. I could not say if he spoke in a normal voice. If he shouted something at him, I would say that I could have heard it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, were you able to hear Oswald’s groan or response as he was hit?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the volume of that response compare to somebody speaking in a normal voice? Was it an extremely loud sound that he made, or don’t you have any recollection?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, an extremely loud sound--it is hard for me to estimate what is loud and what is not. It is very vague.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, describe it in your own words.

Mr. PAPPAS. It was like an expulsion of air, a gasp. It was audible from where I was. I heard him. If I said it was loud, I don’t know whether it would mean anything to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can make a statement like that and then maybe you can----

Mr. PAPPAS. It didn’t throw my head back or anything like that. I have been blasted by loud sounds. But this was an audible sound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were other people speaking and shouting at the time?

Mr. PAPPAS. At the time of what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time this gasp came out?

Mr. PAPPAS. No. There were people--I imagine there was a slight din. But I noticed distinctly that the shot went off, and there was a cold moment of silence, and then the gasp. It was a very quick split-second thing. But there were these two moans that I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I have not listened to the tape yet and that might answer many of the questions.

Mr. PAPPAS. I think that would help a lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in order--of course, the tape is a result of a microphone, which may or may not pick up everything that the human ear picks up. Maybe we can work into this by my asking you, was this a directional mike or to what extent did the microphone itself that you were using limit the ability of the recording apparatus to pick up the kinds of sounds that the human ear would have heard?

Mr. PAPPAS. It didn’t limit it at all--from my knowledge of the instrument. It is nondirectional microphone. Its field travels in a slightly elliptical fashion. But it encompasses a greater area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here a number of pictures which I think you provided to the FBI.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do is to have you look at them. But I want to mark them first. And I would like to get some idea of what distances are really involved in these pictures. I am going to mark a single large photograph which shows a picture of Jack Ruby approaching Lee Oswald, and Oswald in this picture is not looking at Ruby--I am going to mark this Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964. Exhibit No. 1.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to look at it with me. Now, you are in this photograph, and I take it you are the person who someone has circled in ink.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how far are you actually standing from Jack Ruby as you recall in that picture?

Mr. PAPPAS. From Ruby, I don’t know, because he was just a blur over to my left. I was approximately 5 feet--5 or 6 feet from Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. I am going to mark the next picture in the same manner--Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a series of six photographs on one photographic sheet. It is a sequence of shots showing Lee Oswald approaching, and in each of the first four pictures, starting at the top, you appear, and your head is circled. In the first picture in the middle row, you can see you holding out a microphone. Do you have any recollection, or are you able to give us any identification at that point where the microphone is being held out in this first picture in the second row how far that microphone really was from Lee Oswald?

Mr. PAPPAS. Well, it was at this point that I was asking my question, and it was--maybe 4 feet, or 5 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the next picture, and that is the second picture in the second row, shows a figure which is Jack Ruby approaching toward Oswald, and the microphone appears to be between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea in that picture how far the microphone would be from Jack Ruby’s face?

Mr. PAPPAS. From Jack Ruby’s face?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. No; I do not. I did not see Jack Ruby at that point. I could not estimate it, because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how far was the path that Jack Ruby traveled as he would have got directly in front of you--how far would he have been from you at that point? Do you have some recollection of his path?

Mr. PAPPAS. It was just a quick streak. I don’t want to mislead you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to. I don’t want to lead you into saying something which you cannot be accurate about.

Mr. PAPPAS. No. I was concentrating on Oswald. He was the person that we had to speak to. And--you notice I am watching Oswald throughout. Here is Ruby, apparently going right for him. And I suppose when he got up around forward of me, I saw this flash. And I really cannot judge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having to pull the microphone back as this flash went past you?

Mr. PAPPAS. No. I realized at a certain point that Oswald was not going to answer my question, and I still held it out. It was still out here. And--it was still projected forward at that point, still hoping that he might turn around and say something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again let me ask you--what is your best estimate of how far Oswald was from you, as you look at the second picture in the second row?

Mr. PAPPAS. The best estimate is 6 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way that you can describe at a distance of, say, 4 to 8 feet, the pickup ability of your microphone?

Mr. PAPPAS. Do you mean if the subject is 4 feet from my microphone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PAPPAS. Then what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then in terms of the volume of the sound, what ability does your microphone have to pick up sound at that point?

Mr. PAPPAS. It depends on the volume of the sound.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can it pick up conversation in a normal tone of voice at 4 feet?

Mr. PAPPAS. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about at 8 feet?

Mr. PAPPAS. At 8 feet it would. It would pick up normal conversation. Naturally the volume of it would be less, but it would be audible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any way you can think of that we can describe the ability of this microphone at these two distances, 4 and 8 feet, to pick up sounds which are of less volume than a normal speaking voice?

Mr. PAPPAS. I am not sure whether I understand your question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, trying to find out--you said that it would not pick up a whisper at one point. Now, somewhere between a whisper and normal speaking voice there are other conversational tones or ranges of loudness that you might be able to describe in your own words and from your own experience, that this microphone might pick up at those distances.

Mr. PAPPAS. I have had no experience with any volume of voice between a whisper and a normal speaking voice. I could not tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark a document for the purpose of identification as Icarus M. Pappas Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this document consists of two pages, numbered consecutively at the bottom 475 and 476. And it is a copy of an interview report prepared by two special agents of the FBI, Lower and Hester, as a result of speaking with you in New York City on July 2, 1964. I would like to ask you to look at this interview report, read it over, and tell us if that accurately reports your conversation with them on that date as best you can recall.

Mr. PAPPAS. I think it does; yes, basically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you, then, if you would sign the interview report on the first page and initial the second page.

Mr. PAPPAS. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it on the first page at a conspicuous spot at the top.

Mr. PAPPAS. This is an affidavit?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; this is just an interview report.

Mr. PAPPAS. Do I get a copy of this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can get a copy of the deposition that is being taken here. And we can then----

Mr. PAPPAS. Can I have this read?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to----

Mr. PAPPAS. No; it is all right.

All right. Where shall I sign it--right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up at the top; yes, and just initial the next page.

Now, let me hand you also what I have marked as Icarus M. Pappas deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4.

(The document referred to was marked Icarus M. Pappas Deposition Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is another interview report prepared by two agents of the FBI, Eugene W. O’Neill, and James J. Rogers. It reports an interview that they had with you in New York City June 30, 1964, and it also consists of two pages. If you would read that, and also tell us if that accurately reflects what you told them at that time.

Mr. PAPPAS. This does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign that, then, on the first page, and initial the second? I might ask you one final question, which is a very general question. In your experience, reporting this event, the events of November 22, 23, and 24, do you feel that there were any--that any restrictions or precautions could have been taken, either to have provided more orderly distribution of information to the press, or to safeguard Lee Oswald, that in your estimation were not taken?

Mr. PAPPAS. I wonder if you could state that again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me state it as two questions. From the standpoint of a newspaper reporter, do you feel that the local authorities in Dallas could have or should have instituted procedures which would have provided a more orderly flow of news to the press, or more restricted flow than was permitted?

Mr. PAPPAS. It is hard to say for me. I think that we got the news from the police department. That is what I am concerned with. And how I get it, whether it is orderly or not, is really none of my concern. I think if that is the way they do it, holding interviews in a hallway, that is the way I have to get it. I think that if they had set up an auditorium somewhere and came in with reports, this would be orderly. But how productive it would have been, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have----

Mr. PAPPAS. I think ideally, as a reporter, as a newsman, I think ideally if there is an incident, a crash, or a homicide, or something, it would make our job a lot easier if we could have all of the witnesses and all of the interviews that we have to get brought in and placed in front of us in a large auditorium. This would be nice and orderly for us. But, unfortunately, that is not the way our business works.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you think it would have been proper for the police to have refused access--refused you people access to the third floor?

Mr. PAPPAS. As far as a newsman is concerned; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you the second question, on the protection of Lee Oswald. Did you observe any inadequacies in the manner in which Oswald was protected that you would be able to bring to our attention?

Mr. PAPPAS. I am not a police officer. I don’t know what is adequate and what is not. I could not tell you. I am not a law officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. I appreciate that. Do you have any other observations that you would want to make about your experiences in Dallas on those 3 days?

Mr. PAPPAS. Just that it was one of the saddest assignments that I have had to cover ever, and that it was professionally a challenge. That is all I could say generally about It.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any information that you think would be of significance for us?

Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no. I have just told the story so many times. I have just made every statement that I think could be made by me. That is what I know at this point. Unless you can think of something else specifically that you are puzzled about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t anything in mind. I think we have covered it pretty well as far as we are concerned. One final question, then. You and I have not had any off-the-record conversations, or prior conversations before we began taking your deposition, have we?

Mr. PAPPAS. Only when you wanted to finish your coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When I saw you out in the hallway and asked you to wait a few minutes?

Mr. PAPPAS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But we did not discuss anything pertaining to your testimony at that point?

Mr. PAPPAS. Nothing; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any further questions. I want to thank you very much for coming here. You have been very helpful to us. The tape recording and the photographs which you have provided in the past have been of considerable use to us.

Mr. PAPPAS. Thank you for having me here, and I hope I have been of some help in getting to the bottom of all of this.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. McCULLOUGH

The testimony of John G. McCullough was taken at 11 a.m., on July 29, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel, and Stuart Pollak, staff member, of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff to the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our normal practice before deposing a witness to explain a little bit about what the Commission is about. I think you will find most of what I have to say you are well aware of.

As you probably know, the Commission was established pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts, the Commission was directed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to report back to President Johnson, to find out all the facts it is able to determine.

We have asked you to come here today in particular because you were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November, and because you did have occasion to see Jack Ruby on one of those days.

I might also indicate that under the rules and regulations that have been established by the Commission, I have been specifically designated to take your deposition.

Also under these rules, you are entitled to a 3-day notice in writing before you appear here. We did send you a letter, I believe. I don’t know when you received it.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I received the letter 3 days ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I might note for the record at this point Mr. Stuart Pollak has just walked in. Do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. None at all. I think I am familiar with the purpose of the Commission, and the reason for my being here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will raise your right hand, I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. John G. McCullough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. 6345 Woodbine Avenue, Philadelphia, Pa.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By whom are you employed?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The Philadelphia Bulletin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you employed by the Bulletin in November of 1963?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I was; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the course of your employment with the Bulletin, did you go to Dallas after President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went to Dallas within an hour after President Kennedy was shot, and arrived in Dallas by plane about 7 p.m., Dallas time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas? Where did you go first?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Do you want me to just continue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went immediately to the Dallas Municipal Building, and to the police headquarters. I am uncertain now of exactly what floor this was on. I stayed at the police headquarters floor of the building for 6 or 7 hours, since this was the scene of the operations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on that floor continuously during that period, or were there times when you were off?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There were times when I was off the floor, to use the telephone, or to consult with other members of the Bulletin staff who were also on assignment in Dallas. But most of the time I was on the floor and in a narrow corridor outside the room in which principals in the assassination of the President and the subsequent events were being questioned by Dallas police officials. And I believe by members of the Federal agencies.

I was not alone. There were at least 50 other reporters along this narrow corridor. It was around midnight, to the best of my recollection, when they brought a man who police told us was Lee Harvey Oswald into an interrogation room. Trying to get a look at the physical setup inside this room. I stood briefly on a metal ashtray that was on the corridor. And coming down from this metal ashtray, I hit with my right elbow a man who was standing beside me. I apologized for bumping into the man and expressed the hope that I had not struck his notes, assuming he was another reporter. He explained to me that he was not a reporter, that he was a businessman in Dallas, and I noted then that he was carrying a box. I would guess it was about 8 inches to a foot square. And the reason I remember it is on one side, in white lettering, on a blue background, was the word “Alpacuna.” It struck me as odd, that a reporter would be carrying a box. And then, of course, when he explained he was a businessman I took a good look at him, because I think reporters get annoyed--because there were enough of us in the corridor without outsiders being there. I mentioned this to another member of the Bulletin staff later, and then discovered after the shooting of Oswald, the man I had bumped into that night was Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you some questions about this. You mentioned that you were trying to look into an interrogation room.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this meeting with the man you think was Ruby, did it occur on the third floor of the police department?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I am not certain--on whatever floor the police department offices are located. There is a whole string of them. There is a homicide squad, robbery, theft units. I believe it was on the third floor. It was not the upper floors. There were floors above. I am fairly certain it was the third floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was on the floor that the detective bureaus were on?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is correct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what particular detective bureau or interrogation room were you looking into at the time?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There, again, I have to go on the basis of recollection, but I believe it was the homicide squad. The officers immediately involved with the investigation had been moving in and out of that particular door for hours, bringing in, for instance, a bus driver, a taxicab driver--at least from the clothing they wore. At one point Oswald’s mother, at another point his wife were in and out of this room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Lee Oswald that you were trying to get a look at?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Actually, I knew I could not see him. I just was wondering whether it was one large room or a maze of partitioned offices, so I could describe it in the story I had planned to write.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I wanted to ask you is was the thing that prompted your getting up on this ashtray the fact that Lee Oswald had been taken into that room?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is correct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall a press conference that Henry Wade held down in the basement some time that evening?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this event which you are now describing, in which you climbed up on the ashtray--did that occur before or after the press conference?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The event that I described, stepping up on the ashtray momentarily, happened several hours prior to the press conference held by District Attorney Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you arrive at the conclusion that it was several hours?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, there, again, I have to go on recollection. But there was this much time ensued. In other words, after meeting the man that I believed to be Ruby, I stayed for a long period--I would estimate 2 hours, before the press conference was held.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Lee Oswald was brought down into that interrogation room again between the time you saw the man you think is Ruby, and the time that Henry Wade held his press conference in the basement?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. He was brought out of the interrogation room. I don’t recall that he was brought back into it before the press conference was held.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you up on the third floor at the time that--just shortly before the press conference was held?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall, were you there when Henry Wade and, I think, Captain Fritz, and perhaps Chief Curry, walked out of the homicide room, just before everybody went down into the basement? Do you recall that?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I do. I believe that I was in an opening, or at the main corridor, at the bay near the elevators, when the three officers you mentioned, the three officials you mentioned, walked along and said there would be a press conference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that at that time, or just before Chief Curry and Fritz and Wade came out, that Lee Oswald had been in the homicide office?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. In other words, Oswald had been in the homicide office before I again saw those three officials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is whether you recall that Fritz and Curry came out of that homicide office just after something had taken place in there with Oswald.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; this I do not recall--whether there was any immediacy involved there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this question, then: Are you clear in your mind that the occasion on which you saw Ruby was a substantial period of time before the occasion when Fritz and Curry came out?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. However, I might add that certainly Fritz, and I believe to a lesser extent Curry were in and out of that room many times. I mean it was not just one movement into the room, and then a long period of time, and a final movement out by those two officers. They were moving in and out at different times during the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, maybe we can work at the time that you saw the man you think is Ruby from the other end. That is, focusing on your activities shortly after you arrived at the police station. You say you arrived in Dallas about 7, and you went directly to the police station. So I assume that you got there somewhere around 7:30. Did you check into a hotel first?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; we checked into a hotel immediately across the street from the police station, municipal building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up there in the police department, did anything occur between the time you arrived and the time you saw the man that you think was Ruby that is significant in your mind that we might use to pinpoint time here?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; except that there was, again, a period of time ensuing between my arrival at the police headquarters and my seeing Ruby, and that would have been occupied on my part by trying to talk to the police officials and trying to get, I believe, to see Wade and interviewing just everyone I could get ahold of who knew anything at all about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw the man you believed was Ruby, did he indicate to you what kind of business he was in?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; he didn’t say what kind of business. This is what made the box stay in my mind. I assumed he was a shirt merchant or something, or that it was a sweater. And there, again, the reason for my remembering him was a bit of annoyance on my part that there was outsiders in that row, when it was terribly crowded.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this look like the kind of box one would carry clothes or shirts or sweaters in?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Only because I in my own mind related the word Alpacuna to some sort of textile trade name. I had never seen the name before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what Alpacuna is. Have you subsequently learned?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; and the man at the time was wearing, I believe it is called, a porkpie hat, and he had a topcoat. This, I remembered, because most of the reporters were not wearing topcoats, and certainly were not wearing hats.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a topcoat did he have on?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. It was a dark blue topcoat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you rubbed elbows with this man, what was his response in the sense of--was it a polite gentlemanly response?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. It was a smile. And the explanation, as I said, that he was not a newspaperman, and that he was a businessman. In other words, he indicated there was no need to apologize, that I had not struck his notes or made him scribble. And he, as everyone along there, was starting into this door, waiting to see what would happen next.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him again?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not see him at the press conference at which Oswald appeared. However, the fact that he was there and wearing the same clothing was told me later by a police judge who was present at that press conference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Justice of the Peace David Johnston?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. I went to his office the following day in another part of--actually in a suburb of Dallas, to follow up the story. And--I am sorry, it was not the following day. It must have been Monday, when it was then clear that the man who shot Oswald was Ruby. And I mentioned to Johnston that I had bumped into this man. And the police judge said, that he, too, had seen him at the press conference, and that Ruby had approached him and handed him a card, a gray card, advertising the club that he operated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a clear recollection that Johnston said that Ruby was wearing an overcoat?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This I don’t--I have no clear recollection, but I did mention the clothing, the hat, and Johnston said that this was the same--the hat I did mention.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. But I don’t remember whether or not I mentioned the topcoat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to see what sort of clothes the man you believe was Ruby had on under the topcoat?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I could not see that. However, after the jostling, after I had jostled him, we did stand together, I would guess, for 5 or 10 minutes. There was no further exchange, conversation between us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him attempt to talk or talk with other people?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not notice; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the assembly room, where Henry Wade had his press conference, do you recall where you were standing in relationship to Wade and the front of the room?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; it is a large room with tables and benches. I would have been to the left side of the room facing what was a standup box, a police lineup box, a screen police lineup box, and some distance back, about one quarter of the distance back--in other words, I was not immediately in the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say the left side of the room----

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Facing this police lineup box, and there was a small stage, a foot perhaps in elevation from the floor level.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as I have already asked you, when you were down there, you did not see this same man again?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I did not see Ruby again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after the Henry Wade press conference ended?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I stayed there for perhaps a half hour talking to other reporters. Of course, Oswald himself was brought into the room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. And someone put a microphone in his face. He said something about his civil rights being violated. He was taken out. We talked to Wade. He gave us some information. When Wade left, we talked to various--there, again, it was just a general attempt to interview everyone and anyone who knew anything at all about the offense. And I would guess that after about an hour, I went back to the hotel. I am sorry that I am fuzzy on the times, but I have not used my notes to recollect or jog my memory on all these things. I perhaps should have. But I haven’t had an opportunity.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have your notes with you now?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I do not. They would be in the office. I used a regular spiral notebook, and kept pretty full notes. However, I did give a statement to the two agents from the FBI of the Philadelphia office, within a few days after my return to Philadelphia. This would have been before the end of November and the times would, of course, have been a great deal clearer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you use your notes in the course of that interview?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the press conference room for a substantial period of time after Henry Wade left, or did you follow out and do something?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I would say between a half hour and an hour. In other words, when all of the police officials and other municipal officials of Dallas left, there was no one else to talk to, so I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the police department that night, then?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, it would have been from perhaps 8 p.m. Dallas time, Friday night, November 22, until perhaps somewhere between 2 and 3 a.m. of the Saturday following, November 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is it your best recollection that you returned to the police department during the day on Saturday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Probably about 10 a.m., and I say that again without any vivid recollection, but because of the fact that we are an afternoon paper and we are publishing in that period. And this was my assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall what you were doing and whether you were at the police department between approximately 2 in the afternoon on Saturday and 6 in the evening?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; this I cannot recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the police department some time Sunday morning?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went to the police department Sunday morning at about 9:30 a.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where did you station yourself?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I went first to--again--to the police headquarters offices on the third floor, and then went down to the basement garage after it was explained to me that Oswald would be moved to the basement garage level in a special elevator serving the cell block, and would be taken from the basement level, put in a vehicle, and taken to the county prison.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long before Oswald actually came out did you go down into the basement?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There, again, it is a guess. I would say an hour, an hour and a half. I was there quite a long time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were standing at the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; this I recall very clearly, because I stood on a guard railing protecting a ramp leading to a parking level in the garage. This was a metal railing perhaps 2 feet high, and I stood there supporting myself against a very wide concrete pillar to get a better look at what was going on. There were so many people there, it was difficult to get a decent look, because of my height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar--as you are down there in that basement, and you are standing on that guard railing, looking toward the jail office--that Commerce Street is on your left, or to the south, and Main Street is on your right, or to the north?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I am not too familiar with the streets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you a sheet of paper. Why don’t you draw a diagram of that basement, and see if we cannot locate you in reference most particularly to the ramp and the jail office.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This on an overall basis would be the municipal building. This cross section would be the basement level. Leading into the garage section of the basement is a door. And this section right here is, I think it is called, the police check-in room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jail office?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Jail office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to write in there “Jail Office” where that is?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There is a door then leading into the corridor. This is the ramp. It is a slight grade, leading down to the parking levels on either side of the ramp. There are several large pillars, I guess over 2 feet square, concrete pillars, along here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to write in there what is the ramp that the automobiles come in from the streets.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. These would be--as a matter of fact, this is the in lane, and this is the out lane.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have drawn an arrow indicating the in lane which is Main Street, if you want to write that in.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I didn’t know the names of the streets there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, the out, or up ramp is Commerce Street.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I was there for a sufficiently long time, for instance, that there were very few reporters there when I arrived. The police officers on duty asked me several times for credentials, which I showed. I was there while they went into parked police cars and removed from the parked police cars weapons which they took somewhere into the jail office. I was there when they backed in an armored car from the Commerce Street exit. They could not get it very far back because of overhead ducts, the heating ducts serving the building. So they had to leave the armored car virtually at the exit. It was parked then on an incline.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you station yourself?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The railing that I mentioned leads along this ramp, and actually it is two metal bars. And I stood on the upper metal bar, leaning against this pillar. In other words, my position would have been here, where I am putting this “X.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me state for the record that you have marked a position on the railing which is along what I will call the entrance to the garage. You might write “garage” there. And it is not the railing that is actually on the Commerce Street ramp, or Main Street ramp.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Actually--that is right. I was immediately against the pillar. In other words, I was using the pillar for support.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were on the Commerce Street side of the garage?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you stood up there on that pillar, or on that railing, do you remember an automobile coming out of the garage and coming up the Main Street ramp just shortly before Oswald came out?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I do not. I remember one car coming out of the parking level and heading toward the Commerce Street ramp, and parking there. Because, for awhile I feared--had it not moved forward, it would have blocked my vision. But it did move forward slightly toward Commerce Street, and then it did give me a clear view.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ability you had to see from the position that you were at up to the top of the Main Street ramp, and to distinguish faces and figures?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This would have been very limited. I made no effort to look in that direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My real question is do you recall----

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; I don’t recall. I may add--the area along the inner part of the ramp, that is the part of the ramp closest to the parking garage, and nearest to Main Street, was pretty well taken up by television cameras, the heavy rolling type, rather than the hand type of equipment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any initial instructions that were given to the press people in the basement, as to where they were to station themselves?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; we were told by several police officers--as a matter of fact, from the first moment of my entry into this area, I was told that we were to station ourselves along the ramp, not too close to the exits, and once we were told that Oswald was on his way down, that we were not to move at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any instruction being given that you were to remain on the garage side of the railings that border the automobile ramp?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I don’t recall any such instructions, because at one point. I was standing against a wall, which would be the side of the ramp away from the garage area, and closer to Commerce Street. But I left that, there again, because I had no vision--there was nothing I could see from that particular point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any instructions being given that people were not to station themselves across the Main Street ramp from the railing to the wall?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I heard no such instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to observe what efforts were being made on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday to check identification of newspaper people?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I myself thought that the security in the garage area on Sunday was fairly strong. In other words, I was asked at least four or five times for credentials. And when I moved to this position here----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The one on the railing?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Indicated by the “X” on the railing--a police officer came over and told me first to get down until I showed him credentials, and then he let me stand. There was some--both Friday night and Saturday there were also occasional checks made. I would say that at least twice on Friday night, and probably twice on Saturday, when I was in and out of the municipal building, that I was asked for press credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this as you were entering or leaving the building?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. On Friday night it was as we left the elevator to the third floor, which is located at the police offices, the departmental offices. On Saturday we were asked for credentials before we were permitted into the elevators, leading up to that floor. And, again, as we got off the elevator--they were designated by colored patches on their shoulders--there were a number of auxiliary police officers on duty Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Pollak, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

Mr. POLLAK. I would just ask whether the witness saw anybody other than the man he thought was Ruby who did not appear to be authorized as a newsman in the third floor corridor on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No. Well, the other robbery units and auto theft were still trying to function Friday night, and moved their people into this crowd along the corridor. So there were what would be civilians and, I suppose, people having business with the police department moving in and out of there constantly.

Mr. POLLAK. Did these people you just referred to--were they normally escorted by a police officer?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; they were always with an officer, and went into one of the other offices. As I say, I remember specifically there were some sailors in uniform, and a man reporting a stolen automobile--these things you remember because when anybody came along the corridor, none of us had any idea who it might be coming, and everyone watched to see who it was. Incidentally, while I saw the shooting of Oswald, I was not at that time able to identify the man who did the shooting as the same man I had seen in the corridor, because as he moved out of the crowd of people along the ramp toward Oswald, all that I could see was a side view and the back of the head. It was a different type of hat, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The hat was different?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; it was a gray felt hat, or a dark gray felt hat, on Sunday--not the sporty type porkpie that I had seen Friday night. It wasn’t actually until I saw a full face photograph of the man on television and in the newspapers that I was sure who he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby in person?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the term that you were sure who it was. Is there any hesitancy or doubt in your mind?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; not in my own mind. In other words, I would say my own personal identification would be that the man I saw in the corridor outside the police headquarters on Friday is the same man who was later arrested for the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked for the purposes of identification the diagram that you have drawn here as John G. McCullough Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.

(The document referred to was marked John G. McCullough Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. For the purpose of our record, I would like you to sign that below where I have marked it.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. With the qualification that I make no pretext of being an engineer or architect. As a matter of fact, the ramp that I have indicated is not--is slightly closer to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The garage entrance?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The garage entrance; yes. The ramp leading to the garage entrance is closer to Commerce Street than it would indicate on this sketch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if it is reassuring to you, we already have a diagram, a chart that has been previously made up of the basement. I think the diagram you have drawn for us indicates with a fair degree of accuracy.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The other thing that would help me to see what happened in there, was the fact that it was so well lighted by the television cameras. Stark lighting, it almost seemed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a second exhibit which I have marked as John G. McCullough Deposition, July 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.

(The document referred to was marked John G. McCullough Deposition Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an interview report prepared by two FBI Agents, John R. Wienberg, and Stanley S. Czarnecki. They prepared this report as a result of interviewing you in Philadelphia on December 1, 1963. The report consists of four pages numbered consecutively at the bottom, for the purpose of our records as 448, 449--five pages--450, 451, 452. Having read the document that we have marked as Exhibit No. 2, would you tell us whether or not that is an accurate report of the interview that these FBI agents had with you on December 1?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. This would be an accurate report. And in addition I would say that the times that I gave to the FBI agents would be better than the times I have given here because it was taken so close to the time of the actual incidents in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back once again to the identification of the man you think was Ruby. Were you continuously on the third floor from the time that you arrived on Friday night at the police station until you saw this man with the Alpacuna box?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. If I was not, it was just briefly to leave and reach a telephone, to try to reach some other member of the Bulletin staff moving around Dallas. In other words, any absence would not be more than 5 or 10 minutes. Because all of the action I was covering was confined to that one floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a man on the third floor who was standing near the homicide office and was identifying members of the police department, most particularly Captain Fritz and Chief Curry, to members of the press?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. There were several persons doing this. The persons who were making these identifications for me, actually, however, were local Dallas reporters, two men and a woman. All carrying press credentials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of those persons--obviously not the woman--but did either of the two men bear any resemblance that you recall to Jack Ruby?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; none at all. The man that I believed to be Ruby was quite stocky. The two reporters were slight, one wore glasses. I believe they were both light-haired.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I were to tell you that so far as we have been able to determine Jack Ruby did not own an overcoat such as you have described, and in fact was not wearing an overcoat on Friday night, would that in any way affect the positiveness of the identification?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Not the overcoat: no. Because, as I say, the only time I looked at this clothing really is as I was coming down, and from the top--what I saw actually was a dark outer coat which I assumed was a topcoat. If I said overcoat, I meant a topcoat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you certain in your mind that this man did have a topcoat or outer coat on?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes. I paid it no particular heed at the time, though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, again, bearing in mind what I have said, that Ruby is not known by anybody else who believes they saw him on Friday night to have been wearing any sort of an outer coat, would that alter the certainty with which you have identified him here today?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No. Actually, because the identification--what makes me believe that the man I bumped into and talked to at least for a moment was Ruby was his face, not the clothing.

Mr. POLLAK. I wonder if we could get a fuller description of the hat he was wearing.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The hat that I have called a porkpie hat is a hat with a flat top rather than with the crease that you usually find in a felt hat. It was made of--well, for want of a better word I will use--a hairy material, rather than the soft felt material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a characteristic of this man’s clothing that is firmly impressed on your mind as his face?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; yes. Because there, again, as I say, I took a look at him as I was coming down, and the fact that there was no crease, and it was not the usual type of felt hat did stick in my mind, even before I saw his face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated earlier that the hat that you believed Ruby was wearing when he shot Oswald was a different kind of hat from the one you saw on Friday night.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever actually seen the hat that Ruby was wearing on Sunday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; just from my view, there again, that I had in the garage at the time of the shooting. I have never actually seen the hat to examine it as such.

Mr. POLLAK. Could we ask Mr. McCullough about the movements the man actually made who did shoot Oswald?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wasn’t going to ask him the question, because we have the films. But if you have a question, Mr. Pollak, go ahead and ask him.

Mr. POLLAK. You did observe Ruby step forward and shoot Oswald?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes; I saw a man in effect move out of the line of people along the ramp, and, frankly, at first I thought he was a photographer who was disobeying the instructions against any movement. And then I saw his arm come up, and I momentarily wondered whether he was going to try to shake hands with someone there. Then I saw the flash of metal in his hand--there, again, under these tremendously bright lights. And I saw, or heard the shot, heard a shot, saw a flash of flame against Oswald’s sweater. And then there was complete confusion in the garage area. There were policemen actually throwing themselves, sliding along the tops of the parked automobiles to get at the scene of this melee that was underway there.

Mr. POLLAK. Could you tell us, Mr. McCullough, where this man, Ruby, was in the garage when he first came to your attention?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, the first time I noticed him at all is when he detached himself from the crowd, in other words when he walked forward from the crowd along the ramp.

Mr. POLLAK. You did not see him, observe him moving into that crowd at any time?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Not, not at all. The first time I noticed him was when he moved toward the two police officers and Oswald, who was between the two officers. And I did hear someone call out--the exact words were, “Jack, Jack, you son-of-a-bitch.” And some other reporters said that they thought it came from--that some of the phrase came from the man who did the shooting. But it seemed to me it came from a policeman who was standing in the corridor opposite the entrance to the booking room. And I got a look at this officer when he moved into the group around Ruby, and found him later on the third floor, and he did say it was he who shouted out, and that his assignment was the vice squad in Dallas, and that he recognized Ruby as Ruby moved toward Oswald. The officer’s name is in that statement, but what it is--I forget it, myself, now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have it in the statement, and this is going to be a part of the statement.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. And the officer told me and told other reporters this at the same time--that he knew Ruby from his regular patrol work as a vice squad officer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that you can think of that might be pertinent to our investigation that you have observed that we have not talked about here today, or which you did not mention in the interview on December 1?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. The only thing that might be worthy of mention is the fact that when Wade, the police chief, and the homicide squad Captain Fritz talked to reporters, they were under constant pressure to produce Oswald. As a matter of fact, on many occasions, late Friday night, early Saturday morning, they were told by various reporters that they owed an obligation to this country and the whole world to let them see the man who shot the President. And this, I think, is why they did produce----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually hear some reporters say that?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Yes.

Mr. POLLAK. In that vein, did you hear any insinuations being made that the Dallas Police Department might have been mistreating Oswald?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Only from Oswald. He at one time, when he was walking along the corridor--and here I don’t know whether he was on his way to this press conference, for want of a better word, or whether he was leaving. He said something about his sanitary rights were being violated. One of the policemen said he wants to take a shower. Oswald himself, the first time I saw him, in the lineup room--there, again, at the basement level--he held his hands high so that the handcuffs he was wearing would be seen on camera. And this struck me as a little unusual, because having had many, many years as a police reporter, I have seen people who were charged with crimes try to cover their face. He made no such movement. He was just trying to display the handcuffs, which struck me as odd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that it would have been proper or improper for the police department not to have permitted news media representatives on the third floor on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, my own personal opinion--I feel that it would have been perfectly proper for them to have not permitted news media representatives on that particular floor. But there, again, having said this, I would like also to say I don’t think there is any police department in the country that is set up to handle an investigation following the assassination of a President. I think they were extremely sensitive to public opinion, and were trying to do their best to show that they were doing a good job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other police departments have you had experience with in your years as a reporter?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Well, as a police reporter it was pretty much in Philadelphia. But as far as security around a President--I have traveled with several Presidents, in political campaigns and tours, and so that I have seen the police operate in New York and Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many years experience have you had in Philadelphia as a police reporter?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Ten.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking here now for a personal opinion. In your estimation, do the police have an affirmative obligation to render affirmative assistance to newspaper reporters in covering matters?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I think they do. Yes; so long as it does not hinder the investigation, as such. Actually, I think that in most cases this can be done without any hindrance to the investigation. Of course, while I say it would have been proper for the Dallas police to have not permitted the reporters in the immediate vicinity of the area where Oswald was being questioned, I think--I cannot think of any city where I could have expected the thing to be handled in a different way than from what it was handled in Dallas. I think the thing was a crime of such magnitude that the police themselves wanted--having had an arrest, I think that they were then anxious to show that they had solved the shooting, and that they were trying to erase what they considered to be a stigma on the name of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back over your experiences on those 3 days, do you have any suggestions as to how the police could have handled the press consistent with what you consider to be their obligation to render assistance to the press in the performance of the press duties?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Nothing, beyond the fact that they might have, and there would have been a tremendous yell of censorship and violation of freedom of the press--they could have kept the media, the news media, in one area, and established some sort of a liaison, appointing an officer to bring information to them. This I have never seen done. But it could be done. It is entirely a personal opinion. I think that the Dallas police performed pretty well. As I say, I was asked constantly for credentials. And most of the reporters near me were also asked for credentials. Especially on the morning--Sunday morning, in which it was planned to move Oswald, they were very strict.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it would have been proper or improper for the police to have barred the press from the basement area at the time that Oswald was being transferred?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I think what they did was proper. In other words, I feel that they felt that they had the situation under complete control. That had everyone stayed in the positions, with no movement, that there was sufficient space in there to guard the prisoner and to move him out without anything going wrong in the basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that on the assumption that there was nobody in there bent upon shooting him.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. That is right. There, again, you don’t want to get too much personal opinion there, but I think it is possible at any time for anyone who really wants to kill somebody to do it--a public official or anyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that our record may be complete here, how many years experience have you had as a newspaper reporter?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. Twenty-six years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to your giving your testimony here this morning, have I or any other member of the staff of this Commission discussed your testimony with you?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; not at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Pollak, do you have any further questions?

Mr. POLLAK. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything, Mr. McCullough?

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. No; that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me thank you for coming here. Your assistance has been considerable to us, and we appreciate it very much.

Mr. MCCULLOUGH. I don’t know whether it has been of any value. But I am delighted to fulfill the request.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are happy that you could come. And, again, I thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM KLEINMAN

The testimony of Abraham Kleinman was taken at 11:35 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I am Abe Kleinman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am a member of the general counsel staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our normal procedure to explain a little bit about what we are doing here before we ask you to testify.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of Congress, and it has been directed to investigate, evaluate, and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today particularly because you were acquainted with Jack Ruby, and we would like to find out what light you can shed upon Jack Ruby and his involvement in the events of November 22, 23, and 24.

Under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been designated to take your deposition today. Also, under these rules, the witness is entitled to have a written notice 3 days before he appears to testify. I might ask you if you have received such a notice.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes; I received that Sunday. I wasn’t there but it was signed for in my sister’s hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you actually see it?

Mr. KLEINMAN. The notice here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you have had 3 days?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes; I called Monday to find out about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you first of all, do you have any questions about what is taking place here? And if so, I will try to answer them for you.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I really don’t know what, except what I read. That is, that you wanted me to come up here and answer some questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we proceed with the testimony, and if you have any questions, you may ask them.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I wouldn’t have any questions, because I don’t know just what you want or what I could tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to ask you some questions and we will see what answers we can get. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t have any, because I don’t know very much about it, except I knew Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you then if you will raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the court reporter what your full name is?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Abraham Kleinman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you spell it?

Mr. KLEINMAN. K-l-e-i-n-m-a-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Kleinman?

Mr. KLEINMAN. 1189B Timplemore Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. KLEINMAN. That is near White Rock Lake.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. KLEINMAN. December 16, 1902.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a trade or profession?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I am a public accountant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a public accountant?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I started practicing after I got out of the service in 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in the Dallas area?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I have lived here in Dallas about 58 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Pretty close to a native.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Pretty close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first met Jack Ruby?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I really don’t recall when or how I met him, but I guess it’s been maybe 12 or 13 or maybe less, somewhere in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there come a time when you began to do accounting work for him?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I have. I did accounting work for him. He wanted me to work out his corporation returns for the State and the Federal, but I have never been able to complete it for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that he asked you to do that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. It was sometime in 1962, the latter part of 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever do any work for him before that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes. I checked some records for him with the Internal Revenue. I don’t recall when.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him on a social basis between the time you first met him?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Not socially. I would know him like you meet anyone and know him, as an acquaintance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you meet him?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, sometimes I would run into him downtown. And while I was doing work for him, he would come by the office, and I would have to go by his place of business on Commerce Street to the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit the Carousel Club from time to time?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I had visited there a number of times maybe around the latter part of the month to bring him some reports to sign, or get the social security withheld, or get his tax reports out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bring any records to you on a monthly basis?

Mr. KLEINMAN. He was supposed to. He brought quite a few records. There was a lot of records missing that he brought up later. We were trying to accumulate all the records to work up his report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell from an examination of the records that he did bring you whether or not the Carousel Club was a profitable operation?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, from the looks of it, it didn’t look like it was too profitable, as far as I could tell. Of course, I never did get the final, get to make a final.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any indication that he was actually losing money?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, at times he said it was losing money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the records substantiate that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, that I couldn’t say because I didn’t have all the records, all of his paid receipts. And over a period of 6 or 8 months, why he would find additional receipts and bring to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Receipts meaning?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Paid bills such as for merchandise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If there were any missing, that would only reduce his profit?

Mr. KLEINMAN. If it were missing, it would increase his profit, because it wouldn’t be charged off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you mean for tax purposes?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was thinking of for straight business accounting whether you could tell from the records whether he had a net profit after everything was taken off.

Mr. KLEINMAN. It is hard to say in that business because you would have to take in a certain amount of money. You don’t know whether you have a profit or loss until you bring in all of your expenditures, your entertaining help and other help that he might have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the basis though of what he did bring in to you, did he show a net profit?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I didn’t get that far on it, because there was a lot of information that he had there that I couldn’t identify readily, and I had to get him to explain some of the transactions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his religious beliefs?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Beg your pardon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his religious beliefs?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever express to you any concern or sensitivity about his position in Dallas as a Jewish person?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No; I have never gone into it. I never discussed anything like that with him. In the first place, when he came up to see me, the main thing I was interested in was getting his reports that he had to file quarterly, because they were behind originally, and I was trying to get him up to date on it, and it took up so much time, that I couldn’t discuss anything with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where Jack Ruby maintained his bank account?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, he had a small bank account. I think it is in the Merchants State Bank. I think that is the name of the bank. I have got it in the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other, that you recall?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No. There might have been another account, but I don’t remember what bank it would be, because the bank accounts he had were very small. I think most of his business was handled out of his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mr. Ruby’s friend, George Senator?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I met him downtown. I met him, if I remember correctly, I first met him in the Statler’s Men Shop. I think he was selling. He was a salesman representing, I don’t know whether it is men’s line or what line of merchandise it is he was representing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him at all on November 22 or 23 or 24?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Who is that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. George Senator.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t think so. I don’t remember seeing him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, where were you at the time you learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I was in this restaurant that burned down here on Commerce Street next to the Picadilly. I don’t know whether it is right next to it, or either one door away. Someone came in and said the President had been shot, and I knew that the parade had just passed by. I was on Akard and Main Street. And we thought they were kidding because it was so fast, they would get the news out so quick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I walked up the street there to Sol’s Turf Bar and they had it turned on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain on Friday at Sol’s?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t remember. I usually go by there every evening. He is one of my clients.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were Friday evening?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t think I could remember exactly where I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you have occasion to go to Sol’s Turf Bar?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes. I usually go there on Saturdays to make up their payroll, and that Saturday, if I am not mistaken, I was at the barber shop until about, oh, maybe 2:30 or a quarter to three. Then when I left there I went over to Sol’s to make up the payroll, and Jack Ruby was in there that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack in there when you walked in the door, or was it sometime later?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, he was in there when I walked in, and he left within about, oh, just a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Jack when you first saw him in the bar?

Mr. KLEINMAN. That afternoon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KLEINMAN. He was in Sol’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts? In a booth, or at a table, or along the bar?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No; he was standing there talking to two or three people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who those people were?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t recall. One of them was Frank Belocchio. I don’t recall who else was in there. There was a group of people in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you saw Jack?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I didn’t do anything. I said hello to him. He was showing them some pictures that he either made or he took off of a signpost somewhere regarding somebody that put them on there. I think the sign was supposed to read, or did read--I didn’t take a good look at it--to impeach Warren. And, of course, I hadn’t heard anything about it, and I didn’t even know where he got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack say anything about those pictures?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I don’t remember what he said, but he seemed to be upset about the pictures. I don’t know what their conversation was before I came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conversation after you came in?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I don’t think there was anything except, you know, he mentioned about those pictures on the Warren impeachment, and then they were looking at an advertisement out of the News. Someone had a full page advertisement about President Kennedy, I think it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether or not he knew who Mr. Warren was?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No: he didn’t. Well. I imagine he knew that he was a Chief Justice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was he upset about the photograph?

Mr. KLEINMAN. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there at that conversation?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t know how long I did stay in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you present during the conversation?

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t think I was there over 2 or 3 minutes, because I went back in the back to try to get the payroll out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Ralph Paul?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, just a very short time. Jack introduced me to him up at the club, and, of course, I knew the name from the records that I was working on, but I don’t know him very well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see Ralph Paul at any time the weekend the President was shot?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see any friends or employees of Jack Ruby on that weekend?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No, sir. I believe he closed the place up on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a document which is an interview report prepared by two FBI agents, Lansing P. Logan, and Alton E. Bramblett. I am going to mark this document “Abraham Kleinman, Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.” This report consists of 3 pages that are numbered consecutively, 317, 318, and 319. The report pertains to an interview which Logan and Bramblett had with you on December 7, 1963. I will ask you to look at that and read it and tell me if it is an accurate report of the conversation they had with you on that day.

Mr. KLEINMAN (after reading). No; it’s got one mistake here. It says certified. I am not certified. I am a registered public accountant. This 59 here, I think I may have said 59, but it is about--I am 61 last December--about 58 years here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that pertain to? What does the year 1953 refer to?

Mr. KLEINMAN. It don’t say. It just says 59 years here in the Dallas area. That is close enough. That is about right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any additions or corrections that you think should be in this?

Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t think I know of any. I don’t recall any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you then if you will sign your name on the first page and initial the next 2 pages.

Mr. KLEINMAN (signs and initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just any place that is conspicuous. Thank you very much.

Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t recall anything else that I would know. In fact, I have been so darn busy I haven’t had time to even read the paper. I have read some of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything that should come to your attention that you think would be valuable to the Commission, I will appreciate your letting us know.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Sometime you hear a lot of different conversations which it doesn’t make sense. People form opinions and this and that. It is all foreign to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any information of anything about how Jack Ruby got into the basement of the Dallas Police Department on November 24?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No; that I didn’t. I don’t know how he could get in there myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information pertaining to anybody who might have given him any assistance or urged him in any way?

Mr. KLEINMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming here. It was nice to meet you.

Mr. KLEINMAN. Nice meeting you.

TESTIMONY OF WILMA MAY TICE

The testimony of Wilma May Tice was taken at 3:20 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record while Mrs. Tice is here, that I have talked with your husband for a few minutes and I have explained to him that the decision as to whether or not other people are to be in the hearing room with us is the one that the witness makes, and that we have permitted public hearings at the request of the witness, and we have had private hearings at most of these. After I talked with him at some length, I think he agreed with me that if it was your wish that he not be in here, that we go ahead and have this as a private hearing. So I will first of all ask you, Mrs. Tice, if you would like to go ahead privately, or if you would prefer to have your husband in here?

Mrs. TICE. I would prefer not to have my husband in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I want to explain to you preliminarily that what we are doing here and how we are set up and then I will ask you to take the oath and testify.

Mrs. TICE. Let me ask you first, is this to be told to my husband?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will not tell your husband about it, but we are taking a printed transcript and these will all be public records eventually, and it will certainly be available to your husband to read if he should ever want to. Now, if you would prefer not to testify about this, why I think that we are not going to ask you to do it.

Mrs. TICE. You mean I don’t have to testify? I don’t have to say anything if I don’t want to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; if you would prefer not to testify, why, I am not going to compel you to do it. We asked you to come here because the FBI had interviewed you, and we wanted to get under oath what they had reported to us previously. But as I say, if you have domestic reasons why you don’t want to talk about this, we are certainly not going to force you to do it.

Mrs. TICE. Will I be subpenaed later for something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will not subpena you. The report is in the records.

Mrs. TICE. There is nothing I want to retract.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I can’t assure you that the Ruby family won’t ask you to testify in court some day.

Mrs. TICE. Well, what is it you want to know from me now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we were going to talk to you about matters that you talked to the FBI about.

Mrs. TICE. That is all?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all.

Mrs. TICE. OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you rather think about this? There is no reason why you have to make a decision today about it.

Mrs. TICE. Well, I mean if you just want me to tell you the story, that story over again, I would rather do it right now, because my husband is so upset now because I had to come up here again with that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know that we can’t, that the chances are 99 out of 100 that your husband will find out what your testimony was. You are aware of that?

Mrs. TICE. Is that from a promise that you made that he would be able to see it later?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that is simply because this is all going to be a part of a public record, and it will be available for anyone to look at, and it will be easily accessible to anyone in Dallas to look at.

Mrs. TICE. When?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In a couple of months.

Mrs. TICE. Not before that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whenever the report is published. I would guess in early fall that the report will be out.

Mrs. TICE. Well, go ahead and ask me whatever you want to ask me now, whatever it is you want to know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you then that the Commission, as you know, was set up to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have already explained why we have asked you to come here, and I am designated under the rules of the Commission to take your testimony.

Now, I might also advise you that you are entitled to be represented by counsel and consult with an attorney if you would like to before you come in here. Also, you are entitled to have 3 days’ written notice before you come to testify. Did you get a letter from us, incidentally?

Mrs. TICE. Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if you would like to consult with an attorney before you testify, we can let you do that, too. Be happy to.

Mrs. TICE. I got this from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. TICE. It said that Hubert, Jr. and Burt Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin.

Mrs. TICE. This letter here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes ma’am.

Mrs. TICE. Well, what do you want to know?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you. I hope we understand that you are testifying freely and voluntarily. Do you have any reservations about testifying?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know if it is going to cause any more trouble than it already has. I don’t see how it could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me put it this way. Would you prefer not to testify?

Mrs. TICE. Not necessarily.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, why don’t you raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?

Mrs. TICE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name, please?

Mrs. TICE. Wilma May Tice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Tice?

Mrs. TICE. 8406 Lakemont Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. TICE. Dallas 9, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mrs. Tice?

Mrs. TICE. March 3, 1925.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are married?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been married?

Mrs. TICE. December 6, 1948. Fifteen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any children?

Mrs. TICE. We have three adopted children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mrs. TICE. No; I am not employed and haven’t been since I worked for the juvenile department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for the juvenile department?

Mrs. TICE. When we adopted our last two children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you adopt them through the juvenile department?

Mrs. TICE. We did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is that that you last worked for them?

Mrs. TICE. I guess 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are your children?

Mrs. TICE. The youngest one is 6, will be 7 in August. The next one is 8, was 8 June 28. And the little boy is 9, and will be 10 November 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What job did you have with the juvenile department?

Mrs. TICE. I was the manager of the foster home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were the manager of the foster home?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that mean?

Mrs. TICE. When the police or the sheriff or anybody picks up the little children that have been abandoned, or if there has been trouble or anything, well, the police bring them to me and bring me a police sheet on it, and in return I call the juvenile department, and then they know how to appoint what social worker that should be appointed to the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You took care of the children until a home was found for them?

Mrs. TICE. No; I was the manager. I took care of the children until they were assigned to a worker, or if I would get too many children, the supervisor would come out and we had foster homes that would take the children until their hearing or what-have-you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the children would actually live in your home?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you do that?

Mrs. TICE. For a year or a little over. Maybe a year, or going on 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?

Mrs. TICE. No; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow the Ruby trial in the newspapers?

Mrs. TICE. I saw some of the news, yes; I did, but then I had a wreck January 23, and January 23 I was pretty sick until April 21. I mean, I had trouble with vision and was going to the doctor every day, and was in bed practically all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of injury did you sustain in the accident?

Mrs. TICE. Well, I had something wrong with the optical nerves or pinched nerves in my neck from a whiplash, and pulled muscles in my shoulder, and something, I don’t know what he said, this vertebra was cramped against the other vertebra, and had a nerve pinched in between it or under.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an automobile accident?

Mrs. TICE. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you rendered unconscious in the accident?

Mrs. TICE. Well, I guess I was slightly in shock. I am not sure. I mean, well, I was pretty frightened. I mean I wouldn’t let the officer take me to the doctor. I wanted to wait until my husband got home to take me to the doctor, because my husband can be there in 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you hospitalized?

Mrs. TICE. No; I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think about the outcome of the Ruby trial?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know what to think about it. I really don’t know what to think about it. I mean, as far as the trial is concerned, I don’t understand it at all. I mean, there is just a lot of it I don’t understand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any feeling about whether Jack was treated fairly or not?

Mrs. TICE. That part I couldn’t say. I don’t know whether he was treated fairly or not. I just wouldn’t even know if he was treated fairly, because I wasn’t up there. I mean, I can’t say. I felt like, I guess what you really want to know is how in the beginning I talked with Eva?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that’s right.

Mrs. TICE. Well, I called Eva. It was no more than a sympathy call. And when I called her I didn’t get her on the phone. I got Eileen on the phone. And I felt sorry for them because they had been so deserted for something that their brother had done. They had been rejected by everybody, and I felt sorry for them. I mean just like I try to teach my children, right is right and wrong is wrong, and I try to abide by the same thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You called for the purpose of cheering her up, was that it, in some way?

Mrs. TICE. Yes. I called her after the verdict. It was after the verdict that I called her to give her my sympathy. That is why. And then I talked with Eileen. And instead, she said Eva was rather upset. Then in talking with Eileen, I think she called or I don’t know, I talked again--I don’t know if Eva called me, or Eileen called me, but something was mentioned about their brother being out at the hospital, and at the time I said to her it was really a shock to me to see--I mean I was in the kitchen when I heard the news, and the children said when they were transferring him, Ruby did this. And she said they were so shocked and all tore up, and I said yes, it was quite a shock to me because seeing him just 2 days later out at the hospital wanting to give Governor Connally a kidney, that he could go down and try to save one life, and go take another life, it just didn’t make sense. And she said, “Oh, he is sick, he is just sick.” And said, “He has been acting just peculiar ever since this thing happened.” And she told me then that another time, well, Eileen asked if she could come and talk to me, if she could come out to the house. So she and Eva came out, and two newspaper reporters came along with me. Art Sinclair and this other one, I don’t know what his name was. Anyway, they were talking to me about Ruby being out to the hospital, and that is just about all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Tice, did you know that Jack himself has denied very vehemently he was out at the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; I know he denied that, and I hated to say that I saw him out there, and I told Eva. And Eva told me, “Well, I asked Jack and Jack said no, he wasn’t out there.” And I said, “Well, anybody can make a mistake. Anybody could have made a mistake.” She said, “Yes, because there are many Jacks. A man called Jack,”--and if it wasn’t him it was his twin brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you could have been mistaken about the man you saw?

Mrs. TICE. It could have been somebody else that looked just like Jack, named Jack; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had been really sure of it that you saw him out there, wouldn’t you have reported it to the FBI or the police in late November or early December?

Mrs. TICE. Now this is where my husband’s part comes in. He doesn’t like for me to go out of that house unless he is with me. He goes down to the farm every weekend, and I was at home alone. My children were in school and everybody was gone. I mean, not only me, but everybody in Dallas was looking and listening. And I decided that I would jump in the car and run over there too. It is only 15 minutes from my house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean when you went to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. When I went to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your husband object to the fact that you had gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has this disturbed you, his objection to that?

Mrs. TICE. Yes: it disturbs me all the time, because he doesn’t want me to go out of the house while he is gone, because he says my place is in the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were really sure that the man you saw out there was Jack Ruby, wouldn’t you have reported it to the police or the FBI within a few days, or called them on the telephone, or something like that and told them about it very shortly after Jack shot Oswald?

Mrs. TICE. No; because I thought they knew everything. I didn’t know that Eva and them didn’t know he went out there, or I wouldn’t have said that to her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You assumed that when you said that, that they knew?

Mrs. TICE. That they knew he was out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That they thought he was out there?

Mrs. TICE. I assumed they knew he was out there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you read the article that one of the newspaper reporters wrote who also said he saw Jack Ruby out at the Parkland Hospital.

Mrs. TICE. No, sir: I didn’t read that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not familiar with that?

Mrs. TICE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason you are telling us that you didn’t call the FBI earlier is that you assumed that they knew that he was out at Parkland, that he had been at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. I assumed that they knew everywhere he had been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you expect that they would have known that unless somebody told them about it?

Mrs. TICE. Well, they are talking to the news all the time, and Eva said they tracked him down from here to there and said that they had asked her all about it and everything. And she wanted to know what time I saw him out there. I said, “I don’t know what time it was, but I know that I was out at the hospital by 1 o’clock, and I know that I was back at my house at 3 o’clock, because my children get home from school at 10 after 3, and when they come home I am home.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you stood out there before you saw this man that you thought was Jack Ruby?

Mrs. TICE. Well, there was some lady and some little child with some group of people standing there and I asked them what they were doing now and she said, “Well, they haven’t said anything.” And she said she can’t hear anything. This is when I saw the one that at that time I didn’t know was anybody like Jack Ruby, and then this man that came up to him and slapped him on the shoulder and started talking to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this man that you think was Jack Ruby, how long did he stand out there next to you?

Mrs. TICE. I was standing about 3 feet from them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he standing in relation to you. Was he in front of you or behind you, or off to the side, or where was he?

Mrs. TICE. I was standing about like this, and they were standing there, but I was being nosey and listening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, this man was off to the side 4 or 5 feet distant from you, the distance from you to me?

Mrs. TICE. This man that I say was Jack Ruby was about 3 feet from me, I guess, about as far as you are from me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You could only see the side of his face, I take it?

Mrs. TICE. Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. TICE. No; I only saw--I could only see the side of this other man’s face that walked up to him. Jack was standing right here, see, this man that is called Jack. He was standing here like this, and I am standing here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will have to indicate.

Mrs. TICE. He turned around when this man walked up here and hit him on the shoulder and said, “How are you doing, Jack?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby was ahead of you and initially had his back to you, is that right?

Mrs. TICE. No; he wasn’t up ahead of me. He was more or less to the side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you looked over, when did you first notice him, when the man said hello to Jack?

Mrs. TICE. When I first noticed him was when this man walked up to him, because I thought this was a detective or something, because he had a suitcase.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he standing in a crowd of people?

Mrs. TICE. Well, there was a, like I said, this lady that I turned around and asked this, and people were coming and going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far were you from the main entrance of Parkland Hospital? Which entrance of the hospital were you near?

Mrs. TICE. Down where you come off of Harry Hines. You come off here, and then there is a paved parking thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you draw a picture for us. Why don’t you take this yellow sheet of paper and why don’t you draw Harry Hines Boulevard?

Mrs. TICE. OK; this is Harry Hines Boulevard, and right in here, this is where the gate thing goes along. You pay to go in here and park. I guess it’s got gate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Tice, we are trying, the reporter is trying to take your words down and they don’t mean very much if you just talk about this and that. I suggest that you draw on this sheet of paper, draw the hospital and draw Harry Hines Boulevard, and then draw some more lines to indicate where you were standing. Can you do that?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know too much how the hospital looks over there. As I came down this way, that is what I am trying to tell you--this is Harry Hines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have drawn a line that you call Harry Hines Boulevard.

Mrs. TICE. OK; then you go in here, and there is a pay-parking thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. The hospital is right here. Right down here is the emergency entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the main entrance, do you know that?

Mrs. TICE. I guess that was the main entrance up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK.

Mrs. TICE. But this is way I came.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a road that comes off Harry Hines Boulevard? What direction is that from the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. There is a little hill that goes down here, and just before you go through this emergency place, I guess that is an emergency place, there is a lawn here, and this is where this bar is for the grass. But there is another parking lot behind this pay thing, I guess. I thought it was a pay thing, something left out of here, and I pulled in this other one and parked in the second or third space.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in a parking lot that was between the emergency entrance to the hospital and Harry Hines Boulevard, is that right? You pulled into a parking lot that was between Harry Hines Boulevard and the emergency entrance of the hospital, is that right?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know how many places there is to park there, but this first place was the one I got in, and I didn’t pay to get in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went into a free parking space?

Mrs. TICE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you parked your car?

Mrs. TICE. I parked my car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you walk to?

Mrs. TICE. Then I came back out here and I walked down here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you were standing in the oval in front of the emergency entrance, is that right?

Mrs. TICE. I was standing right here by this fence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The metal fence that separates the----

Mrs. TICE. This right here is where the police cars park and stuff. No; that is over to the other side because that goes all the way around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to have to explain it in words, because the lady can’t take this down. She can’t understand what we are talking about.

Mrs. TICE. Well, all right. Right down here is this circle where you go down into the emergency entrance, and this little bar here, it goes across here where this grass is, and where I was standing was right here on this grass, right here [pointing].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you mark an X where you were standing?

Mrs. TICE. This is me. And these other people were here, and this is where Jack was standing, about 2 foot on this side of this fence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Were you facing toward the emergency entrance, or which direction were you facing?

Mrs. TICE. We were looking down there to see what was happening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack actually was a little bit in front of you?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an R where Ruby was?

(Mrs. Tice marks.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, a man walked up to him and tapped him on the shoulder?

Mrs. TICE. The man came right down this way, over this way and slapped him on the shoulder and asked him how he was doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that point Jack turned around?

Mrs. TICE. At that point Jack turned around and started talking to him. At the time, he was facing right toward me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the other man? Was he standing between you and Jack?

Mrs. TICE. No; the other man was standing right here, and Jack was standing here, because he turned around to see who slapped him on the shoulder.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this with an R for Ruby, and I am going to put W for Wilma, and I am going to leave the M you put there for the other man.

Mrs. TICE. OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you thought about this incident?

Mrs. TICE. I didn’t think about it any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the next time you thought about it, of course, was whenever the children said that was when Oswald got shot?

Mrs. TICE. That is the next time I thought about it. I mean, other than just what I hear on the news, and I got tired of hearing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell your husband?

Mrs. TICE. That I went down there; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell anybody else that you had been there and seen that man, seen Jack Ruby?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; I talked to Eva about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any of your friends about it?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t think so; no. I don’t think I did, because I wouldn’t want my husband to get hold of me being out there. I guess I made mention to somebody about him wanting to give somebody a kidney, him wanting to give Governor Connally, one day, and then going up and killing somebody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who you told that to?

Mrs. TICE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you would like to tell us about this?

Mrs. TICE. Well, except whenever I turned, well, this Ruby went on down this way, and this man here, when this man walked away, and this one here went on down toward this curb here, then I turned around and I looked at my watch and I left, because my children were coming home from school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left shortly after you saw this man, this Ruby man?

Mrs. TICE. I was home at 3 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time elapsed between the time you saw Ruby and when you left the hospital?

Mrs. TICE. I don’t know, but it takes me approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As soon as that man left, Ruby, did you go home?

Mrs. TICE. I just moseyed. I didn’t take off at a running hop or anything, but I kept looking and I didn’t see nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wait as long as an hour after you saw Ruby before you left?

Mrs. TICE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As long as a half-hour?

Mrs. TICE. No; whenever I started to get out, there was cars coming in there, and I guess it probably took me 5 minutes to get out of that parking lot, by the time I walked back up to here and got back in the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of when you got home?

Mrs. TICE. Well, the children got home from school at 3 o’clock or 2:45. They get out 10 minutes till 3. I was home at 3 o’clock; I was home when the children got there. Well, it may have been 5 or 10 minutes after 3, because I was there before the children came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there before the children arrived?

Mrs. TICE. I just got there, but I was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram which you have drawn here--I am going to put this emergency entrance up where you have indicated it was, and I am going to mark this “Wilma Tice Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1”.

Mrs. TICE. Well, now, you know Eva told me she says, “Well, but Wilma, you could be mistaken, because you know people look different on television than they do in person.” I said, “Yes, I realize that is true.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think you might be mistaken, or don’t you?

Mrs. TICE. No; I said I thought it was either him or his twin brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You still feel that way?

Mrs. TICE. I still feel that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you have only seen him on television?

Mrs. TICE. That’s right, and that time out there is the only time I have ever seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about pictures in the newspaper, do they look the same as what you remember the man looked like at Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. TICE. They didn’t look as much like him as the one that Eva or Eileen brought to the house and showed to me. I mean, looked more like him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mrs. Tice, I only ask you if you will sign this exhibit with your signature.

(Mrs. Tice signs.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask one other question. That is, there was a newspaper report that you received a threat of some sort before you came here. Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. TICE. Do I know anything about it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you receive a threat before coming here?

Mrs. TICE. Well, I don’t know if it was a threat or I don’t know now--I don’t know what you are talking about. Are you talking about when I was barricaded in the house?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I don’t know about that. I was just informed by somebody here in this U.S. attorney’s office that one of the daily newspapers here had carried an article that you had been threatened. Do you know anything about that?

Mrs. TICE. They said that I had been threatened, but what the paper said is not what--I got a telephone call, and some man told me on the telephone that it would pay me to keep my mouth shut.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you recognize the voice on the telephone?

Mrs. TICE. I never heard that voice before in my life, that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you got that telephone call, did your husband know that you were supposed to come to testify?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; he knew I got this letter Sunday. He was coming home with the children. He went down to pick up the children at Sunday School and brought them home and was just coming in whenever I signed for the letter, and the postman handed me the letter when he walked up to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive the telephone call?

Mrs. TICE. Well, now, I think it was Monday or Tuesday; but I have been so confused because I was up all day and all that night and the next day, and some of the FBI and some of the police said it was Wednesday, but I believe it was Monday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your husband, when you got that letter from the President’s Commission, ask you why you were supposed to testify?

Mrs. TICE. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell him?

Mrs. TICE. No; he accused me of having worked for Jack Ruby at one time. He says, “I know you have known him before. You probably worked for him before you and I were married.” And he is so unreasonable, and he is just--my husband is kind of jealous, and you can’t hardly talk to him. So I just figured, well, I wouldn’t say anything to him, because he just goes into a rage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t have any other questions of you and I appreciate your coming here. I don’t know whether you have anything more that you would want to add. I think you probably told us everything there is to tell us.

Mrs. TICE. Well, that is all I know. And as far as the phone calls, the rest of them didn’t say anything. They just hung up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get more than one phone call?

Mrs. TICE. Yes, sir; I got several phone calls that were just--whenever I wouldn’t answer the phone any more, and our little niece had been there, and she is 14 and I would tell her to answer the telephone, and she answered the telephone, and they would hang up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to thank you again very much for coming. I hope we haven’t inconvenienced you any further.

TESTIMONY OF WANDA YVONNE HELMICK

The testimony of Wanda Yvonne Helmick was taken at 4 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

It is our practice to have a few preliminaries here in which I explain to you what the Commission is all about, and what we are going to do. Then we will administer the oath and I will talk to you.

This President’s Commission, as you probably know, was set up in November 1963, as a result of an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of Congress, and under these two official acts, we have been directed to investigate and to evaluate and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today because I understand you have some information that might pertain to Jack Ruby.

Now, under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been designated to take your testimony, and I might tell you that the rules do provide that before you are asked to testify, you shall receive 3 days’ notice in writing in advance before you come here.

I will ask you right now if you received a letter from us and when you did receive it.

Mrs. HELMICK. I received it yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then we haven’t complied. Well, let me ask you if you are willing to go ahead and give us your testimony without having had the 3 days’ written notice?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you. Do you have any questions that you want to ask me before I ask you questions?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand and I will administer the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. HELMICK. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your name, please?

Mrs. HELMICK. Wanda Yvonne Helmick, or Wanda Sweat Helmick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mrs. HELMICK. 902 Bagley, Apartment 3.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located in Dallas?

Mrs. HELMICK. In Arcadia Park in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it Mrs. or Miss?

Mrs. HELMICK. Mrs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mrs. Helmick?

Mrs. HELMICK. March 16, 1945.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working for a man named Ralph Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in November of 1963?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin to work for Mr. Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it was in November that I started to work for him. I don’t remember the exact day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him altogether?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was employed with him for 3 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave his employment?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your job?

Mrs. HELMICK. Carhop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What hours did you work?

Mrs. HELMICK. I worked from 10 till 6, I think, or from 10 to 5.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 10 in the morning till 5 at night?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this every day of the week?

Mrs. HELMICK. I had one day off. I don’t remember which one it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean, did you always work those hours or did you ever work in the evening?

Mrs. HELMICK. I always worked those hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have talked to the FBI and have indicated that you overheard a telephone conversation that you believed took place between Jack Ruby and Ralph Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you heard that telephone conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was the night before Oswald was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The night before?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of day or night would that have been?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, I believe it was around 8 or 9 o’clock. I am not for sure what time it was. My husband, he wasn’t supposed to pick me up. Another girl was supposed to pick up and take me over to her house so he would pick me up, but she didn’t show up, and he came after me about 9 o’clock, I guess it was. Rather late at night, I know that much. And this conversation took place after dark. I don’t know what time it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working at that time?

Mrs. HELMICK. No; I was off of work. I had been off work about 3 or 4 hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you sitting at the time you heard this telephone conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. In the front booth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this at the Bull Pen Drive-In?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to take a pencil here and a piece of paper and draw us a diagram of the inside of that Bull Pen Drive-In and show us on the diagram where you were seated and where the telephone was and so forth.

Mrs. HELMICK (drawing). This is where the booth was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, what have you drawn on there?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is where the telephone is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the room? Would you draw the outline of the whole room first? Where are the walls of the room?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is the walls and then there is a little something that blocks between two rooms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A partition of some sort?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes; a partition. And the booths are sitting next to it like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door to this room?

Mrs. HELMICK. No. There is a door coming into the whole thing from the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door? Do you want to mark the door in there?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is the door. This opens into, and it opens onto the place where you pay as you go out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The counter? Cashier? Where is the cashier?

Mrs. HELMICK. The cashier stands in behind this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to write cashier in there?

Mrs. HELMICK. (Writes).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now up in the upper left-hand corner of this diagram you have drawn a rectangle and you have written the words telephone and cashier. It is rectangular, some sort of enclosed area?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes; it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you get back into that enclosed area?

Mrs. HELMICK. There is a little open door like thing. It doesn’t have a door in front of it. It is just an opening that you can walk behind the counter where all the trays sit for the carhops and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located? Can you mark it on the diagram?

Mrs. HELMICK. (Marks).

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is the telephone that you have marked on there, which is behind the enclosed area, is that a public telephone, or a pay telephone?

Mrs. HELMICK. It is a pay telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other telephones in there?

Mrs. HELMICK. No; there is not any other telephones there. I suppose that this booth is about anywhere from 3 to 6 feet away from the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were seated in the booth?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was seated sitting in the first seat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You want to mark yourself there? Put an “X” there where you were seated.

Mrs. HELMICK. Right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody sitting there with you?

Mrs. HELMICK. There was people sitting there. Rose and a man I can’t remember who was sitting beside me, and I believe Toyo.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, what is Rose’s last name?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work at the drive-in?

Mrs. HELMICK. She has been working there for about 7 years before I came.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she still working there to your knowledge?

Mrs. HELMICK. The last time I was there, which was about 6 months ago, she was still there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where she lives?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was somebody that you called Toyo?

Mrs. HELMICK. She was a Japanese woman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she still working there?

Mrs. HELMICK. To my knowledge, she is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that her first name or her last name?

Mrs. HELMICK. That was her first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what her last name was?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t have no idea. It was an American name. I know where she lives.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it is 10th Street. Let’s see, it’s behind Taylor Super Market in Grand Prairie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Grand Prairie?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the cashier present at that time?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the cashier?

Mrs. HELMICK. She was Rose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what happened? Will you tell us what happened?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, we were sitting there gossiping about something, I don’t remember what, but we was teasing or aggravating Johnnie--well, Paul you call him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ralph Paul sitting there at the booth with you?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, he was behind the counter, and Rose got up and went back there to do something, and she started talking to him, and the telephone rang, and she said, “It is for you. It is Jack.”

So he took the phone and he had been talking quite a while, and he said something. He either said, “Are you crazy? A gun?” or something like that, or he said something about a gun.

Then he said, “Are you crazy?” But he did say something about a gun, and he asked him if he was crazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he talk on this telephone call?

Mrs. HELMICK. He just talked for about 5 minutes, I guess. It wasn’t very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear anything else that was said in the telephone conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. He said something about either he had a date with Tammi or Jack had a date with Tammi, and Jack wanted to talk to Ralph, and that is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you heard that conversation, did you talk with any of the other employees about that?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if any of the other people who were seated in that booth also heard that conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. They were sitting close enough to hear it, and there wasn’t anything else being said at the time, because after Rose got up and went over to talk to Johnny, we didn’t talk very much, and it was real quiet after she left. Nobody was saying anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ralph do after receiving that telephone call?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, it wasn’t very long, I guess 15 or 20 minutes until he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he left?

Mrs. HELMICK. No. He told Rose, but he didn’t tell us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him tell Rose? Did you see him talking to Rose?

Mrs. HELMICK. He said, “I will see you tomorrow.” That is all I heard. He said that in sort of a loud voice, but other than that, he was talking sort of low.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you talked with Ralph that evening?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, I hadn’t really talked to Ralph that evening. He just told me, well, that morning he told me where everything was, and other than that, I didn’t talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you said you had been sitting at the booth talking to him.

Mrs. HELMICK. Rose and Bonnie and Toyo and this man, he is a tall man, I don’t remember his name, but they were all teasing him, and I didn’t know him that well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you sitting there or listening to the conversation?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was listening to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Ralph that indicated that he was ill or wasn’t feeling well?

Mrs. HELMICK. No. There was nothing said that made him sound ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work at the Bull Pen Drive-In after this telephone call on Saturday night?

Mrs. HELMICK. I worked until about a week after Thanksgiving.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any conversation around the Bull Pen which would indicate that anybody had any advance information that Jack might do what he did?

Mrs. HELMICK. Now the next day after we had heard it on the radio, he was popping off about this telephone call that he had that night, and he told us that he talked to Jack and that they had talked about a gun, and that he had it in a dresser drawer or something like that, and that he didn’t tell what he was going to do with it.

I don’t even know that he told Ralph what he was going to do with it.

I don’t even know that he told Ralph what he was going to do with it. [Repeating.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you refer to “he had it in the drawer,” you mean Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes. But he was telling us again what I had overheard over the telephone about the gun and about out with one or the other.

And he said that he had told Jack that he was either crazy, or something like that, that he didn’t know what he was doing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was present during this conversation on Sunday?

Mrs. HELMICK. Everybody that worked for him was gathered around there on the other side of this object that I have drawn where the cashier stands. We were all standing around in a huddle, and John was standing on one side of the counter, and we were all on the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you refer to Johnny, do you mean Ralph Paul?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you name the other employees who were there?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was Rose. I don’t know their last names. It was Rose and Bonnie, and a boy named Joe and this tall man, and I don’t remember his name, and Curly. This is an old man that works there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all those people still employed there?

Mrs. HELMICK. As far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave your job there?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was sick for a week, and my baby was sick for a week, and whenever I got sick, I was off for about a week and 3 days, I guess, and whenever I went back after my job, he told me I couldn’t have it, that he had hired someone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a fight with Ralph?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I hadn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ralph Paul before then?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get your job there?

Mrs. HELMICK. He called me on the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to get your name?

Mrs. HELMICK. I went down there after I quit another job at Pal’s Drive-In in Arlington, I went down there and asked about a job, and he called me about 3 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he made any advances toward you?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had never had anything but a business relationship with him?

Mrs. HELMICK. That is all. I must have not got too well acquainted with him. I didn’t talk to him because I didn’t understand him. He didn’t talk like you. He was Jew or something and I couldn’t understand him, so I just didn’t talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel any hostility toward him?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I felt he had it toward me. He made me feel that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to get that impression?

Mrs. HELMICK. The first day I started working for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the day was the conversation on Sunday that you overheard?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was before Oswald died. It was about 20 minutes, I guess, after he was shot, because everybody else already knew it, and they was calling Ralph and telling him about it.

As soon as he found out about it, he called Tammi on the telephone, and Tammi came down and they left together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any indication from Tammi that she had seen Jack the night before?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t remember. I can’t remember if Ralph had said that “I saw Tammi the day before”, or not, but he told us that, I believe he told us that he saw Jack that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand that your recollection is that on Sunday he told you that he had seen Jack on Saturday night?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe he did. I don’t remember. It’s been too long ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who have you told this story to besides the FBI and people here in this room?

Mrs. HELMICK. I told it to my husband the day that it happened. He was there. As soon as I got the gossip I went and told him. That is all it was to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell anybody else that you recall?

Mrs. HELMICK. I told my whole family about the telephone call and about what happened over there, and I guess everyone knew it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell any of your friends?

Mrs. HELMICK. If we got to talking about the subject, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular girl friends that you might have told it to?

Mrs. HELMICK. Girl friend?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or boy friends?

Mrs. HELMICK. I was talking to Joyce Bradley. I was talking to her yesterday on the telephone and told her about the letter that you all had sent me, and told her what I just told you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean shortly after this happened.

Mrs. HELMICK. Oh, well, my family, and I guess, well, I wrote to Don’s relatives in Baltimore, Md., right after it happened and I told them I worked for him, and told them what was going on down here on TV and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell them about this conversation that you overheard?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the name of that relative?

Mrs. HELMICK. Let’s see, Rosemary Helmick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does she live?

Mrs. HELMICK. In Baltimore, Md.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have her address?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t have it now, but at the time I wrote her, it was 4116 Dartford.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has she moved since then?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI?

Mrs. HELMICK. Twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time, did they ask you these questions that I have just been asking you about who else you told?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes, but I don’t think I told them about me writing the letter, or I don’t remember what I told them. I mean I have been so nervous and everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why didn’t you report this to the police or to the Federal authorities shortly after you heard about it?

Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t think it was anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you certainly must have thought it was something. You told your husband.

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I didn’t tell him. I thought it was something, I just thought it was gossip, so I gossiped. They went down and talked to the police the day that Jack Ruby got arrested, so I didn’t think it was anything.

I thought surely that they would tell them, so what was the use of me telling them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you knew that now when you followed the Ruby trial, you knew that none of this came out in the Ruby trial?

Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t follow the Ruby trial. My TV has been broke. Well, it is not really broke but the antenna is messed up on it, and I haven’t had a good TV antenna in 2 or 3 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in the newspapers, didn’t you follow the newspapers?

Mrs. HELMICK. No, I don’t take a newspaper. But Ralph Paul wasn’t brought out in any of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. HELMICK. I just know that he wasn’t because I never heard his name mentioned by anybody else. I mean, I got the gossip. But right after the trial, I guess I don’t know when the trial was, but the FBI soon found me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They didn’t find you until sometime in June, did they?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know, but these people that I worked for, they was trying to keep everything so much of a secret, and I didn’t see anything wrong with what they had said. I mean, they was trying to keep Ralph Paul hid sort of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts were they making to hide it, as you say?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, whenever the newspaper would call on the telephone, they would say that he doesn’t own this place any more, or he isn’t here any more. Even if he was there, they would say he wasn’t there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the same day that Oswald was shot, or was that later on?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe it was that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a fellow by the name of Jackson that works there?

Mrs. HELMICK. Jackson, I believe that was that tall fellow’s name that I mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the fellow that Ralph Paul lived with?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know. I didn’t know he lived with anyone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with Tammi?

Mrs. HELMICK. I didn’t know he lived with anyone at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody in that--how many waitresses did he have? Carhops and so forth?

Mrs. HELMICK. Carhops, there was me and Toyo, and 4 waitresses--this is during the daytime?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. HELMICK. There was Bonnie and Rose.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have in the evening?

Mrs. HELMICK. I believe his name was Joe, and his wife was working nights. She had just started right after I started to work there. I don’t remember if there was anybody else working there as a waitress, but there was a girl named Joe, a tall blond-headed girl, and a girl had just gotten out of the hospital and was coming back to work about three or four nights after I was working there. I can’t remember her name, but we all chipped in to buy her something, some kind of gift. It was a nightgown. And she started to work there again after I did, but I don’t remember her name. But I would recognize all them people if I saw them again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you thought of anything else that might be helpful to us in this regard?

Mrs. HELMICK. Now I may not know anything that would help you, but surely I am not the only one that heard this. I know that I am not, and Rose and everybody that was standing around there at that counter hearing Ralph talk, they all know what I have just said. But whether they heard the conversation on the telephone that night, if they did, I don’t know. They wouldn’t tell me but I didn’t ask any of them. But they never did say. Them people were quiet. They kept everything to theirselves. The reason I didn’t call anybody, I was afraid to get involved, really. And I didn’t know that I could be of help to anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anybody suggested to you that you shouldn’t get involved?

Mrs. HELMICK. No one ever suggested anything; because I didn’t believe that it was--I mean I figured that they would find it out sooner or later, and I didn’t figure that it was anything that anybody was hiding. I mean, I wasn’t hiding it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what significance that telephone conversation has?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know that it has any bearing on the case at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you remember it then?

Mrs. HELMICK. Because of the gun, and after Oswald had been shot the next day, I knew that it was bound to have something to do with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think it has to do with it?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know. My own opinion has nothing to do with this, I don’t think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think the conversation about the gun didn’t have anything to do with the shooting of Oswald? Is that what you are saying?

Mrs. HELMICK. It was the same gun that they were talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. HELMICK. Because Ralph told us the next day that it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think that has to do with the shooting of Oswald?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know that he told him that he was going to shoot Oswald or not, but I do know that he told him about the gun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You must certainly think that he might have been telling him that he was going to shoot Oswald? That is the reason he was talking about the gun?

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know what I thought. I mean, I didn’t give it too much thought. I didn’t give anything much thought about it then. I have thought a lot since.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What have you thought about it since?

Mrs. HELMICK. Well, in my own mind, I believe that he told Ralph Paul that he was going to shoot Oswald. But if he did, Ralph didn’t tell none of us that he did. At least I don’t think he did. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I certainly appreciate your coming here and helping us on this.

Mrs. HELMICK. I have thought a lot on it, but I just can’t remember. It’s just been too long ago. If someone had suggested me calling the police or FBI or something right away, I would have. I mean I didn’t have nothing to hide. I wasn’t trying to hide from them, but I just never thought of it. It didn’t even enter my mind, and I would have remembered a lot more then, I guess, if there was anything to remember. But it’s just been too long ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, it’s been very good of you to help us even at this point, and we are very grateful to you. I have no more questions, unless you can think of something else that you might want to add.

Mrs. HELMICK. You want to keep this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark this.

Mrs. HELMICK. I marked it all up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this diagram.

Mrs. HELMICK. You want me to tell you what all this is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me mark the diagram. I thought we had an explanation of it, but I am going to mark the diagram that you have drawn “Wanda Helmick, Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”

Where are you a native of? Are you a native of Dallas?

Mrs. HELMICK. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Texas?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts?

Mrs. HELMICK. Commerce.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know where that is. Do you want to explain to us this diagram?

Mrs. HELMICK. This little line here in zigzag----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The light wavy line that you have drawn at the bottom of the page?

Mrs. HELMICK. This is tables back in here where there is extra customers for dinner hours, and these booths are just used----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do people park their cars in this drive-in?

Mrs. HELMICK. I haven’t got it drawn in on here, but it is back this way [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mark on the other side of the wavy line the garage or parking area? Would that be proper?

Mrs. HELMICK. There is places [marking].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would the wall of the building be in the front?

Mrs. HELMICK. Right along in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to indicate that with a heavy black line. Do you want to write “wall” on it?

Mrs. HELMICK. OK; this is the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a walkway up?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes; there is not no walkway. There is just bars out there to stop the cars from running into the building. But there is a parking area all the way around the building for carhops. I have wrote “car parking” where the carhops just service the cars. But there is a place for them to park all the way around the building. There is mirrors outside in front for the carhops to see from the booths.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to mark that this is a booth where you put your X?

(Mrs. Helmick marks.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to mark in the area where the tables are? Write the word “tables” where it was you said the tables were.

Mrs. HELMICK. Oh, these?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

(Mrs. Helmick writes.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if that is a reasonably accurate diagram of what we were talking about, I will ask you to sign it. If you think there is anything more to put on it, go ahead and do it.

Mrs. HELMICK. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you sign it with the pen I gave you there?

Mrs. HELMICK (signing). It is not a very good diagram.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think it is accurate enough for the purpose of what you have explained to us?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you one more question. How many telephones were at the Bull Pen Drive-in?

Mrs. HELMICK. Just the one pay telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that it is a pay telephone?

Mrs. HELMICK. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF NANCY MONNELL POWELL

The testimony of Nancy Mennell Powell was taken at 11 a.m., on July 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself first. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Now, we routinely try to explain to the witnesses before we get into the testimony what we are here for, and a little about the Commission, so I will say to you at the outset that the Commission was established as a result of an Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. Under those two official acts the Commission has been directed to investigate into the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and then to report back to President Johnson all the facts that we are able to determine.

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