Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XV; Hyman Rubenstein, a brother of Jack L. Ruby; Glen D. King, administrative assistant to the chief of the Dallas police; C. Ray Hall, an FBI agent who interviewed Ruby; Charles Batchelor, assistant chief of the Dallas police; Jesse E. Curry, chief of the Dallas police; M. W. Stevenson, deputy chief of the Dallas police; Elgin English Crull, city manager of Dallas; J. W. Fritz, captain in charge of the Dallas Homicide Bureau; Roland A. Cox, a Dallas policeman; Harold J. Fleming, vice president of the Armored Motor Car Service of Dallas, and Don Edward Goin, Marvin E. Hall and Edward C. Dietrich, employees of the Armored Motor Car Service; Capt. Cecil E. Talbert of the Dallas Police Department, who was in charge of the patrol division on November 26, 1963; Marjorie R. Richey, James Thomas Aycox, Thomas Stewart Palmer, Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr., Edward J. Pullman, Herbert B. Kravitz, Joseph Rossi, Norman Earl Wright, Lawrence V. Meyers, William D. Crowe, Jr., Nancy Monnell Powell, Dave L. Miller and Russell Lee Moore (Knight), former employees, business associates, friends, or acquaintances of Ruby; Eileen Kaminsky and Eva L. Grant, sisters of Ruby; George William Fehrenbach, a purported acquaintance of Ruby; Abraham Kleinman, Ruby’s accountant; Wanda Yvonne Helmick, an employee of a business associate of Ruby; Kenneth Lawry Dowe, who talked to Ruby over the telephone on November 23, 1963; T. M. Hansen, Jr., a Dallas police officer; Nelson Benton, a Dallas news reporter who spoke with Chief Curry on the morning of November 26; Frank Bellocchio, an acquaintance of Ruby, who spoke with him on November 23, 1963; Alfred Douglas Hodge, an acquaintance of Ruby; David L. Johnston, the justice of the peace who arraigned Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit, and who also gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22, 1963; Stanley M. Kaufman, Ruby’s attorney, who spoke to him on November 23; William S. Biggio and Clyde Franklin Goodson, Dallas police officers; Roger C. Warner, a Secret Service agent who participated in the investigation of the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald; Seth Kantor, Danny Patrick McCurdy, Victor F. Robertson, Jr., Frederic Rheinstein, Icarus M. Pappas, John G. McCullough, Wilma May Tice, John Henry Branch, William Glenn Duncan, Jr., Garnett Claud Hallmark, John Wilkins Newnam, Robert L. Norton, Roy A. Pryor, Arthur William Watherwax, Billy A. Rea, Richard L. Saunders, Thayer Waldo, Ronald Lee Jenkins, Speedy Johnson, and Roy E. Standifer, all of whom gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22 and/or November 23, 1963; William Kline and Oran Pugh, U.S. Customs officials who gave testimony regarding their knowledge of Oswald’s trip to Mexico; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the FBI; and Bruce Ray Carlin, Mrs. Bruce Carlin, and Ralph Paul, acquaintances of Jack Ruby; Harry Tasker, taxicab driver in Dallas; Paul Morgan Stombaugh, hair and fiber expert, FBI; Alwyn Cole, questioned document examiner, Treasury Department; B. M. Patterson and L. J. Lewis, witnesses in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Arthur Mandella, fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department; John F. Gallagher, FBI agent; and Revilo Pendleton Oliver, member of the council of the John Birch Society.
Page Preface v
Testimony of-- Hyman Rubenstein 1 William S. Biggio 48 Glen D. King 51 C. Ray Hall 62 Seth Kantor 71 William D. Crowe, Jr. 96 Charles Batchelor 114 Jesse E. Curry 124, 641 M. W. Stevenson 133 Elgin English Crull 138 J. W. Fritz 145 Roland A. Cox 153 Harold J. Fleming 159 Don Edward Goin 168 Marvin E. Hall 174 Cecil E. Talbert 182 Marjorie R. Richey 192 James Thomas Aycox 203 Thomas Stewart Palmer 206 Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr 218 Edward J. Pullman 222 Herbert B. Kravitz 231 Joseph Rossi 235 Norman Earl Wright 244 Russell Lee Moore (Knight) 251 Edward C. Dietrich 269 Eileen Kaminsky 275 George William Fehrenbach 289 Eva L. Grant 321 Victor F. Robertson, Jr. 347 Frederic Rheinstein 354 Icarus M. Pappas 360 John G. McCullough 373 Abraham Kleinman 383 Wilma May Tice 388 Wanda Yvonne Helmick 396 Nancy Monnell Powell 404 Kenneth Lawry Dowe 430 T. M. Hansen, Jr. 438 Dave L. Miller 450 Nelson Benton 456 Frank Bellocchio 466 John Henry Branch 473 William Glenn Duncan, Jr. 482 Garnett Claud Hallmark 488 Alfred Douglas Hodge 494 David L. Johnston 503 Stanley M. Kaufman 513 Danny Patrick McCurdy 529 John Wilkins Newnam 534 Robert L. Norton 546 Roy A. Pryor 554 Arthur William Watherwax 564 Billy A. Rea 571 Richard L. Saunders 577 Thayer Waldo 585 Clyde Franklin Goodson 596 Ronald Lee Jenkins 600 Speedy Johnson 607 Roy E. Standifer 614 Roger C. Warner 619 Lawrence V. Meyers 620 William Kline 640 Oran Pugh 640 Bruce Ray Carlin 641 Mrs. Bruce Carlin 656 Ralph Paul 664 Harry Tasker 679 Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 686 Paul Morgan Stombaugh 702 L. J. Lewis 703 Alwyn Cole 703 Revilo Pendleton Oliver 709 B. M. Patterson 744 Arthur Mandella 745 John F, Gallagher 746 Index to Volumes I-XV 753
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Page Aycox Exhibit No. 1 206
Bellocchio Exhibit No. 1 469
Branch Exhibit No. 1 474
Carlin Exhibit No.: 1 655 2 655 3 655 4 655
Cole Exhibit No.: 1 704 2 704 3 704 4 704 5 704 6 704 7 705 8 706 9 706
Crowe Exhibit No.: 1 110 2 110
Crull Exhibit No. 1 140
Dowe Exhibit No.: 1 436 2 436
Duncan Exhibit No.: 1 483 2 484
Fehrenbach Exhibit No.: 1 295 2 311 3 312 4 317 5 317 6 314 7 318
Fleming Exhibit No. 1 160
Gallagher Exhibit No. 1 750
Goodson Exhibit No. 1 597
Hall (C. Kay) Exhibit No.: 1 66 2 66 3 68 4 67
Hall (Marvin E.) Exhibit No. 1 175
Hallmark Exhibit No. 1 489
Hansen Exhibit No.: 1 445 2 445
Helmick Exhibit No. 1 403
Hodge Exhibit No. 1 495
Jenkins Exhibit No. 1 601
Johnson Exhibit No. 1 614
Johnston Exhibit No.: 1 509 2 509 3 513 4 513 5 513
Kantor Exhibit No.: 1 75 2 83 3 92 4 92 5 93 6 94 7 94 8 94
Kaufman Exhibit No. 1 515
King Exhibit No.: 1 59 2 59 3 59 4 60 5 62
Kleinman Exhibit No. 1 387
Knight Exhibit No. 1 266
Kravitz Exhibit No. 1 234
McCullough Exhibit No.: 1 380 2 380
McCurdy Exhibit No. 1 529
Miller Exhibit No. 1 454
Newnam Exhibit No.: 1 537 2 538 3 538 4 535
Norton Exhibit No. 1 549
Oliver Exhibit No.: 1 713 2 713 3 717 4 722 5 723 6 732 7 737 8 738 9 741 10 741 11 743 12 743
Pappas Exhibit No.: 1 370 2 370 3 371 4 371
Patterson Exhibit: A 744 B 745
Powell Exhibit No.: 1 420 2 429 3 430
Pryor Exhibit No. 1 555
Pullman Exhibit No. 1 231
Rea Exhibit No. 1 573
Richey Exhibit No. 1 196
Robertson Exhibit No.: 1 354 2 354
Rossi Exhibit No. 1 241
Rubenstein Exhibit No.: 1 35 2 35 3 44 4 45 5 47
Saunders Exhibit No. 1 577
Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.: 8 687 9 687 10 687 11 687 12 687 13 687 14 687 15 689 16 689 17 690 18 690 19 690 20 690 21 690 22 690 23 692 24 694 25 696 26 697 27 698 28 698 29 698 30 698 31 698 32 698 33 698 34 700 35 700 36 701
Standifer Exhibit No. 1 615
Stombaugh Exhibit No.: 1 702 2 702 3 702 4 702 5 702 6 702
Talbert Exhibit No.: 1 186 2 186
Tice Exhibit No. 1 395
Waldo Exhibit No. 1 586
Wright Exhibit No. 1 250
Hearings Before the President’s Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF HYMAN RUBENSTEIN
The testimony of Hyman Rubenstein was taken at 9:20 a.m., on June 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff of the General Counsel’s Office of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
I have been authorized under the rules of procedure of the Commission to take your deposition here today, Mr. Rubenstein.
I might tell you a little bit about the Commission before we go into the testimony.
The Commission was established under an Executive order of President Johnson and under a joint resolution of Congress on November 29, 1963, to investigate and evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson on the assassination of President Kennedy and the facts surrounding the murder of Lee Oswald.
In asking you to come here today, we are particularly concerned with the information you may be able to bring to bear upon the murder of Lee Oswald.
Now, under the authorization setting up this Commission by the President and by Congress, the Commission is authorized to promulgate certain rules of procedure, and pursuant to those rules of procedure, the Commission has authority to issue subpenas and to require witnesses to attend here.
In pursuance of those rules we have sent you a letter. I want to ask you now if you did receive the letter. You are pointing to your inside coat pocket.
Can you tell us when you received the letter from the Commission?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I, that I, can’t tell you because I was gone out of town all last week, and I came in Monday night, and I didn’t open my mail until Tuesday morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did see the letter on Tuesday.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. It was too late for me to get here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask is that you are privileged to have 3 days’ notice before you come here and I wanted to make sure we had given you the 3-day notice.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It probably was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney with you if you desire, and I see you don’t have one here so I take it it is not your desire to have one.
Incidentally, in the letter that we sent you did you get a copy of some rules of procedure?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I wasn’t worried about it because I felt I have nothing to hide to tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you have any questions that you want to ask about the general nature of what the proceeding will be before I administer the oath?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I think it is going to be very interesting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand if you will. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, give the court reporter your name.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hyman Rubenstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rubenstein.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1044 Loyola Avenue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Chicago, 26.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived there?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 6 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. December 28, 1901.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you born?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Warsaw, Poland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you come to this country?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When I was 2½ years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been in 1903?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t--all right, put it down, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only recollection, I take it, you have----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From my folks when they told us when they came here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at the present time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am a salesman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you work for?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I work for Davidson and Uphoff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 448 Mark Avenue, Clarendon Hills, Ill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you sell?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Florist supplies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those consist of?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Bird cages, stands, different things that the florists sell in their shops and greenhouses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you obliged to travel in the course of your employment?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Almost constantly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general idea of the area that you travel in?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. Now, I cover Michigan. I have covered Wisconsin, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, Kentucky, and Tennessee. With different firms but related to the same field.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been covering Michigan?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 11, 12 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said now you cover Michigan. I take it at the present time----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. This is a new firm I am with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the present time you don’t cover any State other than Michigan?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; except this. In 1963 the firm I was with in New York, the Lewis Ribbon Co., merged with the International Artware Co. of Cleveland, so I had to go in business for myself. So, I still cover the same territory for myself as I did with Lewis Ribbon Co. in 1963. So I had a lot of money outstanding so I am trying to pick that up little by little as I am traveling through Illinois and eventually will travel through Wisconsin to pick up money I have coming from merchandise I have sold.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave the Lewis Ribbon Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1963; January 1st.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you went into business for yourself?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What business did you go into then?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Same business, ribbons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these sold to floral customers?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. The same customers I had before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin to work for the Davidson-Uphoff Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Last month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So between approximately last January and last month or January 1963 and last month, you were employed for yourself, is that correct?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Practically.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Practically?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I mean because I haven’t done much work since the incidents down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you were employed for yourself did you travel in any States other than Michigan?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; Illinois and Wisconsin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time was spent in each of those States?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. For one trip complete? In other words, if I had to make a State complete time, how much time would I spend in that State?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In a typical 3-month period, for example.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I could cover a State in 3 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were traveling in the fall of 1963, what State?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I had just come back from Michigan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you began traveling in Michigan?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I could have told you that if I had my records here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wanted to get a little background on yourself before we go into some general questions. You say you came to this country when you were about 2½?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I don’t think we did. I think, of course, I think we stopped off in New York, and then I think we came to Chicago. My father was here first.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was your father here?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He--about a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are not sure where you came to. Did you have a permanent home any place before you moved to Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your first permanent home in this country was in Chicago and I take it that would have been shortly after you arrived in the country?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Chicago all your life?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except when I was in the service or where else, except when I travel but outside of--my voting is right here in Chicago, my voting residence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in military service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From October 1942, until April 1943.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you serve?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Fort Lewis, Wash.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the army?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Fort Lewis near Seattle?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a man when you were in the service by the name of Sloan, a man from Chicago by the name of Sloan?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What business was he in or what was he doing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would have been in the service out in Seattle, in the Washington area.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The name doesn’t ring.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if your brothers visited you at any time while you were in the service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the service?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We were scattered all over the earth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this in the army, your military service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do, what rank did you attain?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a private. I was at 210 Field Artillery, 33d Division.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You spent all of your time at Fort Lewis?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, we were 1 day at Rockford, you know, they throw a uniform at you and then they put you on the train and you are on the train for 3 days, and then you wind up at Fort Lewis.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the service----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; we were in Yakima for cannon training.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the service in 1943?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the reason for your leaving?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Overage. They told me they had no more use for me. They apologized, I had a good record. I got an excellent discharge, they were sorry but they wanted a younger man in my place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you left the service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I stayed in Seattle.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay there?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 10 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I signed up with the U.S. Army Engineers to go to Alaska, to go to work as a carpenter. I felt I wanted to do something. They were going to build barracks out there. I waited and waited and waited and I got tired of waiting, so I asked the company that hired me to release me, because they did not know when I would be put on a boat to go across. The Army would have allowed only two men, civilians, with the regular soldiers to go across Alaska at a time.
Well, I probably would have been there for 4 years waiting yet so I decided to ask for a release, and they gave me a release and I went back to Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the 10 weeks you spent waiting?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I worked; I worked part time for the Seaboard Lumber Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the reason you were there was because you were waiting to go to Alaska?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. In fact, I had my tools sent to me, my father’s tools.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you worked as a carpenter before?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on your return to Chicago what did you do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I took odd jobs, whatever I could get to make a buck, you know, salesman on the road. I am trying to think what I sold, novelties, premiums, different things that you could get. A lot of items you couldn’t get, there was a scarcity, so you sold what you could obtain from different companies or different friends who were in business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for any particular company?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am trying to think. I can’t think of any particular company I worked for. I probably bought stuff myself and sold it on the road.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have in front of me your social security, a summary of your social security record. Do you remember working for the Arlington Park Jockey Club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ben Lindheimer--how did that work out, I am trying to think. I worked there just before I got in the service, and then I was drafted, that was the last job I believe I had at the Arlington Park Jockey Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your social security record indicates that you worked for the Arlington Park Jockey Club in 1943.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then I probably went back there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In fact all of 1943, and in 1942 with the exception of the fourth quarter of 1942.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was in the army for 6 months, how could that possibly be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When did you go in the army in 1942?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. October.
Mr. GRIFFIN. October. And when were you separated from the service in 1943?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About April.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would be understandable.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Is it October? Because I know I was in the service for 6 months. That I am positive of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall when you left the service coming back to work for the Arlington Park Jockey Club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t recall but I probably did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are a ticket puncher like he is doing now. You come over and ask for number two I gave you number two. You ask for number five, I gave you number five.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked in the mutuel window?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, mutuel window.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your record here indicates that you didn’t have any employment covered by social security from 1944 to early 1949.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing during that period after you left the Washington Park Jockey Club, and actually the last place you worked at the National Jockey Club.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know about the names of the jockey club but I worked at the racetrack for a while as a mutuel ticket seller.
As I said before, and I am repeating again, that I bought what I could and sold on the road for myself, and I made a living that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
It is my understanding you were selling novelties?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Novelties, premiums, punchboards, that is about it. That covers a lot of territory.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of the country did you travel in when you were doing that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I covered the Middle West.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you cover any of the South?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I never cared much for the South.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in the latter part of 1949 working in Ripley, Ohio?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do there?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a bartender for a friend of mine, Bob Knoff. He owned a tavern, the Riviera Cafe at Front and Main Streets, and Bob said to me, I came down to visit him and he said “What are you doing?” And I said, “Bumming around, making a few bucks selling items.” He said, “I need a bartender. Help me out for a while.” I said, “OK.” So I stayed with him, I don’t know, for about a year, about a year or so, about a year, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 6 months.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All right, 6 months. I don’t remember. 1949. Then I went back to Chicago. I fixed a few things for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you worked for Mr. Knoff?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What year was that, 1949?
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1949, 1950.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went back to my own business again, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask you if you remember working for some of these companies and then I will ask you some general questions.
Do you remember working for the Fisher Pen Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Paul Fisher is a very dear friend of mine, salesman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chicago Cardboard Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the punchboard outfit I told you about, Chicago Cardboard was a punchboard outfit and Paul Fisher, I covered Chicago territory for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you worked for the punchboard company where did you travel?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wisconsin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Parliament Sales Corp., do you remember working for them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I sold television sets for them only in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Enterprise Contract Consultants, do you remember working for them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t even know who they are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were located on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the same thing, must be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Same thing?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it was the same outfit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just changed the name?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Could be. You never can tell about those outfits. Oh, they had to change their name, I believe, because they were using the word “Paramount.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Parliament.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And they changed it to Parliament to make it sound like Paramount because Paramount wouldn’t let them use their name.
What is this Enterprise deal?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, that is why I am asking you.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t recall, either. How long did I work there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. About 6 months.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What did they make?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Were they located on Milwaukee Avenue?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then it must be the same outfit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people who ran it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One fellow was a nice guy and I still see him occasionally in Chicago, Oscar Fishbein, he is president of the firm, I believe, and I still believe he is still in business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the G.T. & I.T. Drake Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That was in 1950.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 1952.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1952. I bought a suburban carryall from a friend of mine by the name of Harry King.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Carryall or carryout?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Carryall. It is called a suburban carryall. It is a car that is designed to carry all, with glass all around it, and it looked like a small truck where the doors opened up in back like this so you could load and unload easily. I saw an ad in the paper, this Drake outfit, the restaurant outfit, $100 a week, and $100 a week in 1952, gentlemen, is a lot of money.
So, here is how it worked. I delivered, unloaded, and loaded food items for, they paid me $60 a week and $40 for the car expense that was $100 a week. It was a hard job but I took it because it paid well. That was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember working for Miracle Enterprises?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Miracle?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been another name for Parliament Sales?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. What address?
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you worked for the Drake Co., who did you work for?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went to work for the Lewis Ribbon Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember going back to work for a few months for Fishbein?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I take it, you worked for the Lewis Ribbon Co., just simply tell me if this is correct, from early 1953 until you left them.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ten years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In January of 1964.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ten years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They merged with the International Artware of Cleveland and they sold out. My territory was already absorbed by International’s men. In fact, they had three men in my three states and they had no room for me and felt rather bad about it because I am a rather conscientious worker, I like people, I don’t have trouble selling them legitimate merchandise and I liked the work and I was doing pretty good and they felt very bad. They promised me as soon as there was an opening they would let me know. So that is the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to go back a few years more now. Was your childhood spent in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you went to school in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you go in school?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had a couple of years of college.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college. Where did you go to college?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The YMCA Junior College.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago, and the Lewis Institute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of courses did you take?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. General courses. I was studying prelaw. I wanted to become a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you attend these institutions?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say around 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were working at the same time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Working at the same time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, going back to your earlier childhood, how many years of continuous formal education did you have until you left school the first time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I graduated high school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you graduated from high school, and then what did you do after you graduated from high school?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I took whatever job I could to sustain myself and help out the family once in a while when I could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would it have been that you graduated from high school?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I graduated in February 1922 from Hyde Park High.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your family living at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They were separated. The folks were living, my mother was living, with the children, I think on the west side, and I was living on the south side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living with any other members of your family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you been separated from the family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I left home when I was, right after I graduated grammar school, when I was about 15. That was in 1916, around 1916 or 1917.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to live?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went to the Deborah Boys Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live there?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 3 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It was a club for boys who had no home, but they had to work or go to school. I did both. I worked after school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You lived there for about 3 years?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say about 3 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Until you were about 18, I take it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. 15 to 18. But you say you finished high school in 1922. What did you do after you left the Deborah Boys Club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I got, I believe I got a room with another fellow at 4907 Vincennes Avenue, and worked after school, and I continued going to school and worked, whatever I could do after school. Some jobs were easy and some jobs were tough.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live with this other fellow?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Until I graduated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Until about 1922?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1916 until 1922, when you returned to the family home, what contact did you have with your family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I used to see them, used to go over there, bring them different things, try to talk to the kids, and see that they tried to get along and have what they needed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to live at the Deborah Boys Club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had a fight at home and my father wanted me to go to work and I wanted to go to school because I knew I had to have some education. But with eight children I could see his point but yet I wanted to look out for myself, and I probably was advised by some of my friends that I should leave home, and I did, and through some agency, I don’t remember how, they suggested it would be best for me if I left home and they found this place for me, and so I was admitted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if any juvenile court proceedings were instituted?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. It is possible. It is possible there were some juvenile court proceedings, it is a long time ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who instituted those proceedings?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. Probably the family service on the west side in Chicago through my mother’s complaints to this association about my father.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you having some difficulty with your father at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I just wanted to go to school, and he thought I should go to work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you recall an incorrigibility proceeding being instituted against you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Incorrigibility?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember any such case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been about May of 1916 that you went to live at the Deborah Boys Club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; it was after I graduated grammar school, and I graduated in 1917.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So you would have been 16 or 17 when you went to live at the Deborah Boys Club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it was right after I graduated from grammar school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say 1917.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I was only 15½ when I graduated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were born in 1901?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; close to 1902, though, you see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall any juvenile court proceedings against you in the early part of 1916, in May of 1916.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall being under the supervision of a probation officer?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, tell us about that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the supervision, what did you have to do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have to report?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, maybe I had to report but I don’t remember what the incident was. I don’t remember who the supervisor was or what I had to do to report.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember how the proceeding was instituted, who instituted, the proceeding against you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. It is almost 50 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you return to the family in 1922?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think I did. I wanted to stay with the family to see what I could do to keep them together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were away from the family were other members of the family also separated?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think Earl and Sammy went to live on a farm. Jack went to live on the north side, northwest side. I don’t know about the girls. I don’t remember about the girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who Jack went to live with?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but it was a very nice family on the northwest side. That is where he met a lot of his northwest-side friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more precise about the northwest side?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I couldn’t because I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother was maintaining a home while you were at the boys club. Where was her home at the time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We moved to so many places, I wouldn’t know exactly, on the west side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the west side?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; but I don’t remember the addresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be northwest?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; straight west, around Roosevelt Road, that would be the best specific spot that I can give you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, during your childhood while the family was together, did you always live around Roosevelt Road?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always live in the same ward? Do you remember in terms of wards where you lived?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it could be divided between the 24th ward and the 29th ward.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And one ward crossed the other, the boundary lines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you did return home about 1922 was your father living in the home at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your father finally come back to the home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember when he came back. I think he came back after my mother died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned to the home, did all the rest of the children return at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the family was brought back together somehow?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that come about?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I couldn’t tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supporting the family by 1922?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My father, I think, was giving $10 a week, and the girls were working, I was working, and we tried to keep the rest of the kids in school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us--first of all, let me ask you, after 1922, prior to the time you went into the service, were there any periods when you weren’t living in the family home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When I wasn’t living in the family home?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. After 1922?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I think I stayed home. I thought it my duty, I believe, to stay home. I think it was that way. I think I felt an obligation to take care, help take care of the family because my father wasn’t living with us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, do you recall when Jack left school?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He went to high school, I think, for 1 year, I believe he went 1 year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he come to leave school?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. We often wonder ourselves because Jack is no dummy. He has got a good head on him. I don’t think he liked school, let’s put it that way. That would be honest. He just did not like school, that is all there was to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any incidents that you can recall which would indicate that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wouldn’t do his homework, that is a good enough incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his companions during that period?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He had nice friends. He always had, because Jack was a little bit choosy about his friends, I mean it. He always had nice friends, fellows who either they were doctors’ sons or boys in the neighborhood that respected Jack, and Jack was more progressive than the rest of us, was a hustler.
Anything that he could go out and sell and make a dollar, legitimately, even if he had to go on the road, and sell items, he was always trying to work, always tried to--he wouldn’t have a steady job, but he was always on the go thinking of ideas of how to make a dollar and helping the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he left school what he first started to do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is a good question. I imagine--let me think what he did do. I think he scalped a few tickets during the fights. All the kids used to do that to try to make an extra buck. That is the only revelation that I have in my mind, but as far as a steady job was concerned, no. Jack never cared for no steady jobs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this particular ticket scalping work, where would he get the tickets?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Let’s say he borrowed $20 from some friend who had $20. Two days before the fight he would buy $20 worth of tickets, and then if the fight was a sellout, he would sell the tickets for maybe 50 cents or a dollar more than what he paid for the ticket and people would be glad to pay him for it on the outside. So, he would make himself $5 or $6, and $5 or $6 during those years would go a long way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he buy these tickets at the box office or would there be somebody else who would go in and buy up a big block of them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; he would go to the box office himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back to your own activities a bit. Can you tell us generally what you did from the time you got out of high school in 1922 until you went into the service in 1942?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I drove a cab for a while, I worked in a drugstore for a while, worked for Albert Pick and Company, they were a big hotel supply house on 35th Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was an assistant buyer, I want you to know, and I liked it, it was interesting. I was in politics for a good many years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. It was during my Deborah Boys Club days, I met a man by the name of Morris Feiwell, who took a liking to me, and he encouraged me to finish school, like a sponsor, you know, and when I graduated he says, “You come on downtown and talk to me. What do you want to be?” I says, “I don’t know.” He says, “Do you like to study continuously?” And frankly, I didn’t. He said, “Well, don’t study law. I was going to put you through law school but if you don’t like to study continuously after you learn a profession, don’t study law.” And through him I met many big political men in Chicago, because Mr. Feiwell was associated to our ex-Governor Henry Horner. Henry Horner was probate judge of Cook County, and a probate judge in Cook County is the biggest judge in the area because he took care of 5 million people probating wills.
The judge took a liking to me because we done certain things, running errands for him, distributing literature for the campaigns--then I met different people, I met Ben Lindheimer. Ben Lindheimer was a big man in Chicago, owned Arlington Park and Washington Park racetracks later on.
He finally became chairman of the Illinois Commerce Commission and also president of the Board of Local Improvements in Chicago. So, I got a job as a sidewalk inspector. That is when I decided to go back to school, because the job as a sidewalk inspector was a political job, sponsored by Ben Lindheimer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been in the 1930’s sometime.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; 1932 or 1933, right. So, I figured why should I waste my time. I can take care of my job and go to school, and I did that. I tried to get my prelegal training there. Then in 1932 the judge ran for governor. Ben Lindheimer became president of the--not president, chairman of the Commerce Commission, Illinois Commerce Commission. He took me with him. I became a warehouse investigator. I was there for 8 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Warehouse investigator for the Illinois Commerce Commission?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For 8 years?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What period of time did this cover?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say from 1932 to 1941. When the administration changed I was let go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your duties in Chicago or elsewhere?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago; no, the entire State. I had to cover quite a bit of the State of Illinois inspecting warehouses that were licensed by the Illinois Commerce Commission, and storage houses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would your duties as an inspector involve?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just to see everything was orderly, clean, fire extinguishers, clean, clean aisles, nothing to clutter up, so as to prevent fires, fire doors, to prevent internal combustion, different things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during this period that you were with the Illinois Commerce Commission, were you politically active?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Since I had no civil service connections, I was politically active.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before that period, were you politically active?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; in the local area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this Democratic or Republican politics?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Democratic.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The whole family was Democratic.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about how you happened to meet--I take it Mr. Feiwell was the way you got--made your political connections?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Indirectly, not directly, indirectly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, tell us how you happened to know Mr. Feiwell.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He used to come down to the club and give us talks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Deborah Boys Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And what sort of work did Mr. Feiwell do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was a big lawyer in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He took a liking to you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted to encourage me because I was working my way through high school and he tried to help out all the boys that he possibly could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he made introductions of you to people in politics?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. As I said before indirectly. Let me give you one example.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When Henry Horner ran for probate judge in 1928, I believe, Mr. Feiwell was one of the men in charge of the campaign. So he didn’t have too much time, so I helped him whatever I could do. If we had a special meeting for fund raising, I would line up the hall, get the chairs, see that everything was ready made for the meeting, got coatracks and hatracks for the men for the meeting and they all got to know me that way, and so I became officially the sergeant-at-arms, and so that is how they got to know me. If they wanted something before they sat down, they told me if they get a telephone call, “Call me out” or if there was a call I could spot the man right away and tell them there was a call from out of the hall. Different things like that, that is how I got acquainted.
Later on I became more important because I knew the ropes a little bit because I knew what to do without their telling me everything. I knew how to pick up the printing, how to distribute the literature in the different wards and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you active in any particular ward yourself or were you in the downtown headquarters?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Mostly the downtown headquarters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever on the payroll of the downtown headquarters?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. I was on the payroll for downtown headquarters. One year, when Adlai Stevenson was running, I was connected with the downtown Democratic headquarters at the Morrison Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after World War II?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. And they didn’t pay me much, but I was glad to help out. I think they were paying me $25 a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to World War II, were you ever on a salary or payroll for any Democratic club?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. Only with the job that I had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your political activities prior to World War II were on a voluntary basis and would have been in your spare time apart from your other job?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Unless the big men in Chicago once in a while if they had me do an errand purposely slipped me a $5 bill because they knew I earned it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion during that period to do any favors for Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What Jack, my brother?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your brother Jack.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. He got in a fight one time with a policeman for scalping tickets, and so I had to go to court for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know but that was dropped. That is the only time that I can remember when Jack actually got in trouble where you might say was minor. Never before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to help him get a license or anything?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I will never forget that as long as I live. Since I was connected in politics, the man in charge of the vending licenses in the city of Chicago was a new man, and I didn’t mean to take advantage of him.
My brother came to me one day in early December one year, “Hy.” “Yes.” “I would like to get a license for selling novelties on the street at 63d and Halstead.”
You gentlemen must realize that 63d and Halstead is a business district where no such thing was ever before done because they have their own business association and no peddlers were allowed on the street, they have got their stores to worry about. So, I went up to this fellow, who I got to know very well, and he said, “What can I do for you, Hymie?” I said, “I have got to have a license for my kid brother.” “Sure, for Christmas?” “Yes.” “What is he going to sell?” “I don’t know. Probably toys or gimmicks or whatever he can put on a stand, you know, on the sidewalk and sell.” As long as he got a permit they can’t bother him. He says, “What corner do you like?” So, I gave him the corner of 63d and Halstead. You don’t know, I almost started a small war and they couldn’t do nothing to Jack because he had that permit. The business people came downtown and they raised particular hell with the guy in charge at the license department, and he couldn’t understand it.
Then he calls me, I think I was working at the time for some department in the city. He said, “Do you realize what you done to me?” I said, “What did I do to you?” He says, “You almost got me fired.” It was really funny.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I can’t remember but I will never forget that incident, and Jack felt like a hero. He has got a permit. They can’t do him nothing. The police even tried to chase him off. He says, “You can’t chase me off, here is my permit,” and the policeman told these people downtown at 63d and Halstead, he says, “The man has got a permit. What am I supposed to do, get myself in a jam?” But they finally had to get him off. They finally realized they made a mistake.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Christmas season?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; during the Christmas holidays when everybody tries to make a buck for the holidays selling Christmas novelties or toys or gimmicks on the street, you know. It was terrific. I will never forget that. That is the kind of a guy Jack was. When he wanted a permit he used to get one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any other episodes of that nature?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. There could have been but this was the greatest. It is a wonder I didn’t get fired. I will never forget that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working for the Illinois Commerce Commission at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think I was at that time because that was the longest job I had with the city outside of being with the Board of Local Improvements for a couple of years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Before the Commerce Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mention the period 1932 to 1941 as the Commerce Commission. Are you clear in your mind that that is when you did start there, in 1932?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When Horner got in, I think it was 1932.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And before that you worked for?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Board of Local Improvements for a couple of years, sidewalk investigator.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have taken you back to 1930 perhaps?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 1930 or even 1929. I will tell you why. As long as we had connections in Chicago and things were tough, you know 1929 was a bad year, you wouldn’t remember, but I would, as long as you had a letter from somebody downtown they were reevaluating all the real estate in Cook County.
Now, you know that is a tremendous job, fellows, and so I got on. They weren’t paying us too much in salary, but every morning I had to meet two real estate men, and I measured the buildings, the length and the width and the lot, and the stories and we gave a legal description of the building, reevaluation. That kept on for about a year. That was a pretty good job with the Board of Review.
So that also kept a lot of us fellows from starving. That was before the Board of Local Improvements. In the meantime I still kept my fingers in the politics on the good side with the Democrats in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you worked for the Board of Local Improvements did you have any government or city or political jobs before that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am telling you that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the first one. The Board of Local Improvements was the first one?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, the Board of Review.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you worked for the Illinois Commerce Commission in 1932, you worked for the Board of Local Improvements----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 1930, and 1929 or 1928, I believe I worked for the Board of Review.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, between approximately 1922 when you got out of school and 1928 what did you do during that period?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Worked as a cab driver, worked in a drugstore. I went on the road as a salesman in 1925.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you sell for?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Plymouth Rubber Co. of Canton, Mass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you sell?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Rubber heels to shoemakers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you travel?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All over the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you do that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A couple of years, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave that job?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a missionary man. They broke me in, they tried to make a salesman out of me and they did, because I done a good job for them and I worked hard. I liked it, I liked it for two reasons. Traveling and selling and when you can sell you felt like a moral victory, you felt that you had a station in life, something to do. The job just ended. I covered the territory they wanted me to cover. I went from Chicago to the west coast, Vancouver, Canada, all over the west coast, all through the Middle West. I don’t think I covered--no, never went south. I didn’t go south, no. We didn’t cover it. We just covered the west, kept on going west and west and over to the west coast and up to Vancouver.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s now shift the focus a little bit and rather talk about yourself. Now let me ask you some questions about your family, your early family life.
Was there any discussion in your home as a child of the background of your parents--where they had come from, what they had done before they had come to this country?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My father was a soldier in the Russian Army for about 7 years. If you know the history of the Russian people, one member of each family must serve, one member. My father was elected to serve.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s just talk about your father for a minute.
As you understand it where was your father born?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sokolov, a small town outside of Warsaw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of family did he come from, do you have any idea?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very nice family, good reputation. His father before him was a carpenter, his brother Abraham was a carpenter. Very well respected.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many brothers and sisters did he have?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of his family come to the United States other than him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His brother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Abraham? When did Abraham come?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before or after your father?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Abraham still alive?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family that is still living?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; he has a son, a doctor, Dr. Hyman Rubenstein, and he has got about three or four sisters, very nice, family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do they live?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. On the north side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are living in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this family from time to time as you were children?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very, not as regularly as we should. We should have seen them oftener but we didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Once a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your father trained as a carpenter?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; in the army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was he when he went in the army?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was a young man, very young.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what rank he attained?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. According to the thing on his hat for the uniform it was a No. 2, and he always used to get in trouble with the captain, but he always would get right with the captain’s wife, he would always make something for her, a cradle or a chair or something to even up the score.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you any of his adventures, where he was?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was in China, but he didn’t like it. He was in Korea and he didn’t like it. He was in Siberia and he hated it most of all. He broke away from the army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to leave?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He just left; walked away, walked away; went over to England; from England he went to Canada; from Canada he came to the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when he married your mother was he in the service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was in the service; in fact I and my sister were born when he left Europe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you were born after he left Europe?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had been born when he left Europe?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My sister and I.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the oldest?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the oldest sister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She is Ann Volpert?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where you and your mother stayed when your father left?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Probably in Warsaw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any reason why you did not accompany him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, the only reason I can give you is he had to get away first. He didn’t want the army to find him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was really escaping from the army?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. He didn’t want any more of it. He had it. And I think there was a Japanese war going to break out there any day, and he didn’t want no part of that so he just broke away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if, did he ever mention whether religious problems were a reason, any factor in his leaving or do you have the impression it was strictly his dislike for the military service that caused him to leave?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, you know Jews in the Russian Army is a tough proposition, a very minority race and he probably didn’t like that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He never mentioned that to you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, he wouldn’t anyway. I don’t think he is the type of a man who would mention things like that. He always felt that he belonged. We, the Jewish problem was never really brought up. We felt like if you did you were a coward. The Jewish problem was always kept to ourselves. Even when I went to high school there wasn’t too many Jewish people there but we tried to belong. We tried to face it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And your father; I take it from what you say, was very much this kind of a man that he didn’t outwardly voice any feelings of sensitivity or separation because of the fact that he was Jewish in a----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I doubt it. I doubt if he would have said anything. No, not with him. But if you asked me that about somebody else in our family----
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your mother?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; I don’t think she--she just wanted to look out for my welfare. My mother was very much interested in the welfare, how we got along, how we got along at school and how our progress was going with us in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I take it from what you say also that if your father had any family back in Europe once he came to this country he didn’t maintain contact with them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t think he ever got one letter. I don’t remember ever hearing a word of his family in Europe; not one word. We would have known about it. If he heard anything about the family indirectly it was through somebody else. Somebody else from his home town might have gotten a letter and mentioned the fact that so and so----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go into the service with any of his brothers?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your father.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I told you there was only one member taken from a family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask you is I believe that in one of the newspaper articles about Jack’s life that was serialized the story was told by the newspaper reporter that your father had joined the service with his two brothers and that your father and his two brothers married your mother and her two sisters.
Do you ever recall a story like that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never. I don’t even remember seeing the article. I don’t think it is true.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask questions about your mother’s family then. Did your mother talk about her family background?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except her father was a very important man in the community. He was like a doctor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say like a doctor?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. That is the expression they used at home. I don’t know. You know, you are going back 4 or 5 thousand miles, and that is the expression that was used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but I take it the words “like a doctor” were used which sort of indicated to you that maybe he wasn’t quite a doctor or something similar to it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Like a pharmacist?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Could have been. I know he went out and took care of people and my mother was called in to take care of the family when somebody was sick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother was?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Do you follow me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My mother went along as a servant to take care of the needs of the family that was sick. Her father took care of the family in a medical way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the impression that I always had from the stories we gathered at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother spend her life around Warsaw, her early life?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I suppose, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall her talking about her life in Europe where she came from?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think Warsaw was her main life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how big her family was?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she have any brothers or sisters who came to this country?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One brother, Harry Rutland. He was, he worked for the Union Pacific for many, many years as a boilermaker.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Rutland his name?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it used to be Rutkowsky and he changed it to Rutland, naturally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Denver.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he still living?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some knowledge he is dead?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, no; we know he is dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Four children, two boys and two girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had your family maintained any contact with the Rutland family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About as much as we maintained with Europe. We would see them occasionally when they would come through or during the war, the boys would pass through Chicago they would stop off and say hello, and if I were working west with the Plymouth Rubber Co. and I went to Denver I stayed there for a week. And then Rita left a trunk at our house one time in Chicago for a couple of years and it blocked up our closet and we asked her to remove it. That is the only connection.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Rita is one of his daughters?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Out on the west coast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So far as you know the only aunts or uncles that you have, whoever came to this country, were your father’s brother Hyman?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; my father’s brother Abraham.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Abraham, who has a son Hyman.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A doctor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And your mother’s brother Harry?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear your mother talk about having any sisters?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Here in this country or in Europe?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Either place.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. There might have been one--I don’t think she is a sister. She was very close to my mother. I don’t remember her name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was she?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. It has been so many years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother--do you remember any contact being maintained by your mother with her family in Europe?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. None. Not even one letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did your mother--did your mother ever express any feelings about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I imagine she got lonely. She used to sort of daydream and tell us a few stories about Warsaw, and her family but she never mentioned any names. I don’t remember her ever mentioning one name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were growing up, as a child, did your mother speak English?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she speak?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jewish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yiddish?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yiddish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yiddish mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it--the conversation in the home was Yiddish among the children?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always, always with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of religious practices were maintained in the home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Not orthodox, not strict, nothing strict, except for the holidays. We would have for Easter, we would follow the Easter services. For Yom Kippur my father would go to synagogue and try to take me along when I was a little boy; and I went to Hebrew school for a while, and that is all I can remember. I don’t know whether any of the other boys went to Hebrew school or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But at least you as the oldest child----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was an oldest child and they tried to set me as an example for the others, but I couldn’t see it. I couldn’t understand it. It is like speaking, what is that language that the Catholics use in their church?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Roman.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Roman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Latin.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is like the Catholics speak Latin in their churches and it is like Hebrew speaking to us kids in America, if you don’t know Hebrew you don’t understand it.
We tried to get some meaning out of it just enough so that we could stay in school and then there was no use. It just didn’t absorb. There was no practice. That is the word, practice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your family, did your mother, observe any of the dietary laws?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, yes; we had two sets of dishes, and very clean. My mother was very clean with the children and with her own life and her own family and her own home. She was very strict about those things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you explain how it is that your mother would observe the dietary laws and so forth and yet the more religious, the formal religious aspect of the life was not incorporated in your home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very simple. You try to bring up eight kids in Chicago and keep them in shoes and keep them in school, out of jail, out of trouble, that was enough, that is the big problem. That is more important.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There were troubles in your home, weren’t there?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of troubles?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Family troubles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be specific?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Between my father and mother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the trouble?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Arguments constantly, quarrels, unfortunately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would they fight over?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Who knows?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your father drink?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about his drinking?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always. He learned that in the army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he drink, at home or go to a corner saloon or what?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say both.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he drink to excess?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he abusive in any way?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My mother objected to it and they would start to fight and started an argument and sometimes they hit each other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They did separate at one time did they not?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the cause of the separation?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just ill-feeling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were a child, did your mother have any peculiar ideas, any delusions of any sort, did she seem to have any mental problems?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; she always felt there was a bone stuck in her throat and about once a month I had to take her downtown. I being the oldest, to a clinic for 50 cents, we had clinics, you know those days, and she insisted there was a bone stuck in her throat from fish, and everytime we would go there the doctor would tell her, “Mrs. Rubenstein, there is nothing in your throat, you are imagining things. Why don’t you forget it.”
Thirty days later, about 30 days, I don’t know, I would go back there with her again. She insisted and I went, she made me go. This kept on for a couple of years, and she finally got tired of going and then we quit going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this after you left high school?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there ever come a time when your mother was inattentive to the children, sloppy and so forth?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. There came a time when she felt very despondent, very disgusted, because she felt she had to keep up the job by herself taking care of the children, and she was unhappy, and so I think the family service suggested that she go to Elgin Sanitarium for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was in the thirties, though, was it not?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember what year, but I know I went out to see her one time with my sister Marion, I drove her out there. It could have been the thirties and it could have been the twenties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was after you got out of high school.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children were born into the family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of them are now living?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And one of them died as a young child?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the one who died come in the picture, in the age span of the children?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. It was a girl. She was about 5 years old, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did she happen to die?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. She got burned. She tipped over a kettle of hot soup on herself. It was a very tragic incident in our family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living at home at the time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a kid. I was only about 6 or 7 years old, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was--it is clear to you that you were a child and you were not an adult when this happened?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before your parents separated?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Many years before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did your mother take that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Don’t ask. I thought she was going to go crazy. She loved her children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have considerable affection, affectionate feelings toward your mother?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the other children, did they feel that way or was there some fighting?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The reason I think for that is, she had a tough life. It wasn’t easy for her putting up with my father all these years, moving from place to place, trying to raise her children decently and honestly. It was tough for her, and alone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did your father feel towards the children?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t find the word for it but it wasn’t like--wasn’t--he loved the children but I believe since he didn’t have to have an education he felt that grammar school was good enough for all of us, and that is what we should have done. But my mother felt differently. She realized that you have got to have an education to progress, and maybe that is why we all felt more for our mother than we did for our father as a parent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your father ultimately came back and lived with you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. After my mother died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not before?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of all of the children in the family, who do you think is the one who has paid the most attention to this early family life and would have the most information to contribute on it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I imagine Eva. Eva is a pretty smart woman. She could, she was at home most of the time and I think she could, tell more about the family than any of us. She has a very good memory, too, by the way, which is important.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close were you to Jack as he was growing up?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I wasn’t home much. I told you. You have got the history of my life here. I wasn’t home much. I am about 10 years older than Jack so when he was 15, I was already 25. I was working and traveling on the road, and whatever he was doing as long as he didn’t get into any serious trouble I felt it is OK.
Except one incident and I found this out not so long ago. On the West Side on Roosevelt Road there used to be a place called the Lawndale, it is a restaurant. During the Roosevelt administration some character made a wisecrack about Roosevelt. Jack picked up a chair and was going to hit him right in the head with that and got stopped by two guys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I was told this by fellows who have no direct connection with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were those fellows?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can give you the name of the owner of the tavern, I can mail it to you, and the fellow who told it to him was afraid to get involved because he has got a record and I said, “What are you afraid of?”
He said, “I don’t want to get involved.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the tavern owner?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can find it for you. I can give it to you, I can mail it to you as soon as I get back to Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you make a note of it and mail it to us.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure, this came as a complete surprise to me because we tried to get, we tried to get, some information from the boys how he reacted away from home, and when a fellow told me this, I almost fell through the floor. I know this, Jack went out to the northwest side many times and broke up Bund meetings. That is one thing he wouldn’t go for.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know this from your own?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From my own fact, and not that he will tell anybody. It came also back to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This other people have told you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Other people told me. They said, “Your brother is terrific. He just goes in there and breaks up the joint.” He just couldn’t tolerate those guys. Nobody would dare mention the word “Jew” in a derogatory form to him because he would be knocked flat in 2 minutes. That is the kind of a guy he was, hasty, quick, and he was agile, he is built good, he never drank or smoked, and he took care of himself. And I admire him for it and I love him for it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever put this strength and physical ability to use in any sort of a job? For example, did he ever act as a bouncer any place?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He never liked to show off. He is not that kind of a loud mouth braggadocio, he never went in for that stuff. He hung around Barney Ross all his life. He liked Barney Ross. Everybody liked Barney Ross.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you one of Barney Ross’ followers?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Naturally when you live on the west side you have got to be a follower.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean did you hang around him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; he was Jack’s age. I knew Barney through Jack, you know, met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you were not in a position to know Jack’s friends when Jack was a child.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His friends were the fellows who loved life and go out and have a good time. His business associates were fellows who were hustlers and like to make money. So you put two and two together. You find good business associates who are hustlers, and you had to be, without much education, go out and make money, and in the evening you go out and you find the friends you like to spend it with. He never hung around with no hoodlums. We knew hoodlums, sure. If they come into a restaurant where you are, next to them you are sitting, “Hello, Hy,” “Hello, Joe.” What do you do, ignore them? You have known them all your life, you don’t ignore them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kids from the neighborhood?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Kids from the neighborhood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any people in mind?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wherever you lived on the west side there was a hoodlum or became a hoodlum who you went to school with, or you belonged to some club with, or maybe--let me give you another example or you played ball with them. You never knew. You never knew. They surprised you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were Jack’s closest friends before he went to Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was very popular, he had a lot of friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people he was closest to?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What age?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s take it after he got out of high school.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Harry Epstein was one, a business promoter. Sam Gordon on the west coast now, very wealthy man, a business promoter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ira Kolitz?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He knew Ira from the Lawndale; he knew Ira.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But they weren’t close?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Leave me tell you something now so you people understand. Ira Kolitz comes from one of the finest families in Chicago. His father was a banker on the west side. But living on the west side you are next door--your next-door neighbor might be a hoodlum, you don’t know. Maybe Ira Kolitz went to school with Jack, it could have been. Maybe they hung around the same poolroom together. I was in the Army with Ira. How much Jack hung around with Ira, I don’t know. I know Ira had a couple of taverns downtown; that I did know. Whether a tavern owner is a hoodlum that is another category, that I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Gimpel?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He died; poor Marty. Marty was a nice guy; worked for the post office for many years, saved up a nice piece of change, went down to Dallas, Tex.; they tried to promote homes, build homes, out of log cabins. They built one, they sold it and that was the end of that deal as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Marty friendly with Jack during the thirties?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I imagine; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Marty was----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Marty in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I knew of him. Probably met him once or twice at the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know when he went to Texas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. Leave me tell you about Dallas, Tex. I mean anybody that Jack knew when Jack came up to Chicago maybe once every 4 or 5 years. “Come down to Dallas, I have got a proposition for you.” “Come down to Dallas, I have a proposition for you.” Everybody he wanted to come down that he wanted to have a friend down there, that was the kind of a guy he was, or else have a place for him to stay, he probably would have a job for them, or if a proposition come up that this fellow could handle Jack would fix him up for it. That was the kind of guy Jack was; you never go hungry with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow in Chicago named Frank Howard?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; never heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Howard?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The musicman?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that who he is?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, that is the only Jack Howard that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you knew him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t tell you nothing. I don’t know him that well; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack being in the music business?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Selling sheet music or anything like that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the guy that Jack counted sheet music; that is the guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your brother Jack sell sheet music?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man named Irwin Berke?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Sam Chazin?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow by the name of Paul Labriolla?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Needlenose; I seen his name in the paper. I never met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Hershey Colvin?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hershey was an Army buddy of Jack in Mississippi, and Hershey is a gambler by profession, and he now is a bartender on the north side of Chicago. That is about all I can tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you mean by a gambler by profession.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, years ago when everything was open in Chicago, like certain communities were. He is a professional gambler. He dealt cards or he run a crap table, or he was in that particular line. Maybe he booked horses; I don’t know. But I know Hershey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jimmy Weinberg?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never--I heard of him but I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Alex Gruber?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike Nemzin?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, there is a nice guy. Mike is a nice guy, but Mike is not Jack’s friend; he is Earl’s friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Eritt?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Rambler agency in Chicago; very well respected and a very nice guy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a friend of Jack or was he Earl’s friend?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Both. I think Jack introduced him to Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever loan Jack any money while he was down in Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I didn’t. Earl did, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Eva; did you ever lend her any money down in Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Eva went down there, I don’t know, before the war. What she was doing down there I can’t tell you, how she ever fell in love with that city that is her business. She came up to Chicago one year, and I had a little money hustling around like I told you, buying and selling things for myself. “I got a good spot,” she says. “1717 Ervay Street.” I said, “What do you need?” She says, “I need about a thousand dollars.” I said, “What for?”
She wants to buy a piano, so I bought her a piano and cost me $625 for the piano. She wanted a loudspeaker system for the nightclub, cost me a couple of hundred bucks for that. Then she bought some dishes, and some pots and pans for the restaurant in the back. I said, “O.K. I will ship them all down to you.” We picked out the piano. I got her the loudspeaker system, and the paraphernalia that goes with it, the speakers, and we went down to Maxwell Street and we bought pots and pans and dishes and cups and saucers and shipped it all down to Dallas, Tex. That was the last I heard of it until I went down there. I was subpenaed by the Government by a guy by the name of Paul Jones. They got in a jam. How did she meet Paul Jones? Eva sent him up to Chicago and he is in Chicago and he calls me. I came downtown and I met him. Do you want this part of the story now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Paul is looking over things down in Dallas that they can’t buy. We were looking for stuff in Chicago that you can’t buy either; merchandise, legitimate merchandise. One of the items was pipe. Of course right after the war, you couldn’t buy anything. There was nothing to be had. I made a connection with somebody I don’t remember now--this is 20 years ago--on pipe. So I sent Paul down a small piece of pipe about 6 inches, and I put a sticker on it and I mailed it down to Dallas, and I said, I sent him a letter, how else can you send a piece of pipe, that was the best way. I figured nobody is going to use a piece like that. I put a label on it and I mailed it down to Paul Jones.
I mailed it to the tavern; Eva’s place. He got it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met Jones before you sent the pipe down?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Up here in Chicago. I never heard anything else from Paul Jones. But shortly after I am subpenaed, come down to Dallas by the U.S. District Attorney from Chicago, Al Lehman, who died since, they wanted me to go to Dallas. “What do you know about Paul Jones?” So I told them. He said, “Go down there and tell the truth,” and I did. I go down to Dallas, the district attorney down there cross-examined me for about an hour, and I told him exactly what happened about the pipe deal, and he didn’t like it because he subpenaed me as his witness, here I am testifying for Paul Jones on the pipe deal. I had to tell him the truth. So he got sore at me, and I said, “Look, I don’t want no part of this court; you sent for me and I am telling you the truth,” and he got angry at me. That was it.
I hung around, this was not in Dallas, the trial was in Nuevo Laredo, Tex. It seems that some of Paul’s associates were smuggling dope, by airplane, from Mexico--across the line--and Paul got grabbed. They found my ticket, I think one of my cards, in his pocket. So, I am subpenaed. I am a dope peddler right off the bat. What the hell do I know about dope peddling? And that was the story of my connection with Uncle Sam. I don’t know what year it was, either 1944 or 1945. That was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after Jack had moved down to Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was in the service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was while Jack was in the service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am almost positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t testify in that trial, did he?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall being questioned by Federal narcotics agents in connection with Jones?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that--were you questioned about that before or after the trial?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It must have been before the trial because after the trial they let me go. They didn’t even bother with me after that because I was no good to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the best way to date it when you went down there was when the Federal narcotics agents questioned you in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Al Lehman, I think, was the one who questioned me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jack, was he questioned at the same time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was in the Army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any recollection of his being questioned?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was never in Dallas before in his life. He didn’t know nothing about Dallas. He never met Jones. I met Jones through Eva.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t ever remember meeting Jones with Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I told you Jack did not know Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if the record showed differently, would you think you might be mistaken?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I am almost positive. Because this was before Jack went down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a time when Jack was living at the Sherman Hotel?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When he came out of the Army.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if during part of the period when he was living at the Sherman Hotel he also went down to Dallas for a while to see Eva?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, when Jack was in Chicago were there times when he did not live with the family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; when he stayed at the Sherman Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Either the Sherman or the Congress, one of the two hotels I know he stayed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long was he living in a hotel?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, after he got out of the service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was it that he was not living with the family?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He had sold out his business to my brother Earl or part of his interest to my brother Earl, and he had some money, and so he felt he wanted to live by himself for a while, which is all right. I mean he was no kid any more, he was a man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there room for him at home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack during the fall of 1963 prior to the time that the President was assassinated?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about your contact with Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the fall of 1963. Let me tell you when the first time was. He called me on the phone, the records you get from the telephone company, and he is going to send me up--he wanted me to come down and become his manager of the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the fall, sometime in the fall of 1963 and he also told me in 1962 he wanted me to come down----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about this being the manager first before we get into the other thing.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he need a manager?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted someone in the family to run the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he going to do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was going--he used to come down later. Jack did not come down early. A manager has got to be there from 4:30 until closing. Jack used to come down around, I understand, nine or ten o’clock in the evening. Probably he belonged to a couple of the clubs there, I understand he was a member of the YMCA and the Dallas Athletic Club I think he was a member of--maybe even had a girl friend or two, I don’t know.
Anyway, he asked me to come down and be the manager. I could not see working in a place 7 days a week, I couldn’t stand the noise in the striptease joints, those brassy bands, you know. I know right away that was out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you having trouble at that time making a living?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I had a good job. I was making good money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this is in 1963, this was after you left the Lewis Ribbon Co.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I had a lot of money outstanding on the road from merchandise I had sold to my customers and that was more important to me than taking any kind of a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t going to help you out?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He thought--he didn’t know what my position was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you told him, did you tell him, that you really didn’t need it? That you were doing all right?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I told him, I didn’t want no 7-day a week proposition right off the bat, that was No. 1.
No. 2, I was a little bit too old for that kind of a deal. You get to be a certain age you don’t want that noise all night long and you realize it, you don’t have to be there but you can realize it, you can visualize the job. I didn’t want it.
All of a sudden he sends me up, do you know what a twistboard is? I should have brought one with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what it is.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I showed it to the FBI. Somebody in Dallas invented a twistboard. It is a square board, two boards, one on top of the other with a ball bearing that separates it in the center.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that one piece of wood rests on the floor and the other would swivel around on the top of it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And you stand on this and you can twist.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Indicating you stand on the board and twist your body around.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. “$1.69 retail, hottest thing in the world. Go out and sell it.” I still have it home with the original wrapper and all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He told me and he also made me a sample.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did he mail you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just one. He mailed Earl one, anybody in Chicago he thought he could contact for promotion he mailed one, because he had the distributorship.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the kind of a guy Jack is. He gets a hot item, boom, he wants to go out and sell it, promote it, that is his life.
You can never take that out of a person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of these other things that he did like that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When Roosevelt died he was the first one with a plaster of Paris bust, and he sold them all over the country. I don’t know, it wasn’t much. He probably paid them $1 apiece for them and sold them for $2.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who manufactured them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but somebody in Chicago done Jack a favor, they made him a mold and kept on making these things for him and he either shipped them or took them and sold them by himself, always something, anything that is hot, he is right there out with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any others; can you think of any others?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Punchboard deals. He would pick up items that the average person couldn’t afford to buy. Let’s say a small radio, probably would retail for about $18 or $19 he would arrange on a punchboard card that from 1 to 39 cents the winner would get the radio and the guy selling the board would get a radio, that the radios would probably cost him about $5 apiece because they would buy lots of them, small radios, little ones, cheaply constructed. Well, you walk into a plant and get hold of a foreman and say, “Would you like one of these for yourself?” “Sure.” “Well, sell out the punchcard on their lunch hour, mail me the money, give the winner this radio and I will mail you a radio.” Perfect. Good gimmick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it then, part of the punchboard gimmick was that he would give some merchandise away with it, is that right?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is right. Incentive. Otherwise, why should the foreman take the board? The foreman wants one exactly like he is going to give to the winner, and there was always enough profit left over for Jack to sufficiently cover his expenses, and make a little profit on the side, and that was one of his other promotion deals.
What else did he do? During the football seasons when he was a kid, you know, these little footballs with the school colors. He would go out to the games, Wisconsin, Ohio, Champaign, Mich., he would leave on the Friday morning with some fellow who had a car and they would load up the car with these emblems and these different school things and he would sell them.
That is another one of the things he did when he was--after he got out of high school--I forgot to tell you that. That was a good deal for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else? While he was in Dallas, did he call you with anything else beside the twistboard, any other promotions he had? How about entertainers?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. He had more trouble--this is a guy in charge of the union down there was giving Jack a headache.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you for his problems now, did he promote any entertainers?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He came up to Chicago on one time with a little colored boy by the name of Sugar Daddy, was about 10 years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been Little Daddy Nelson?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know; I don’t know the extra name but there was a little colored boy who was the greatest pianoplayer and singer for a kid 10 years of age.
Jack took him to Chicago, tried to get him on the TV and tried to get him on radio, and we went to New York, Jack spent all this money, and the deal was all set, with even a tutor for the kid, a tutor, all set, the contract was going to be signed, and everything, and he had to give the mother and father 25 percent or something like that of the kid’s earnings and Jack took 25 percent, I think for his work and expenses, and the kid would get the rest of the 50 percent and all the money for the tutoring would come out of the kid, expenses and so forth, all set and signed. This you will never believe. A second mother shows up. You know that would make a story in itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, that is it. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn about the second mother?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From Eva.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you learn about this?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Way after; Jack was advised by his lawyer in order to avoid a lot of legal difficulties, and all that stuff, drop it, and Jack dropped it like a hot potato. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble, two mothers. Talk about Jack with his promotions. That is the kind of a guy Jack was, you would love him, nice guy, likable guy. Do you a favor any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other promotions can you think of?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is really funny. Jack’s promotions. I wish I could think of all of them. Ever since he was a kid. I can’t think offhand now. But when I heard about that two-mother deal that was really funny.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear about the two-mother problem before or after the President was killed?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, this is long before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So this is something that was, you all knew about?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am just trying to give you the background of Jack’s life, what kind of a guy Jack was. He would never hurt anybody, I mean either physically or mentally. He loved life, he loved a story, he loved to laugh, he loved women, and--but don’t hurt him, don’t hurt him or you would never hear the end of it. He was very sensitive, very sensitive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us some examples of that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I gave you one about the Roosevelt chair, and I am trying to think of something very important in his life. Yes; he popped Eva on the nose one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that happen?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. Something about chop suey. I wasn’t there. He popped my own sister on the nose. That is the kind of a guy he was, something quick, something broke in him and he hit her, hit her right in the nose, which isn’t like our family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you say he wouldn’t hurt anybody, what do you mean by that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I mean he wouldn’t go out of the way and start a fight. I mean he wouldn’t just pick a fight on the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did fight with people on the street?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes; oh, sure--sure. That is because they were doing something to, something to hurt him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or at least he felt they did?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is right. He wouldn’t start anything. Let’s put it that way. He wouldn’t start anything. He would let the other guy start it. That would be the end.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you say he wouldn’t start anything, he sometimes would strike the first blow, wouldn’t he? He didn’t wait for the other guy to hit him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is true. But there must have been cause to lead up to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that these--were there any times when you observed him in a fight?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you are telling us about his fights you heard from other people, fights that he did get in? How about arguments? Have you observed him in arguments with people?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; he was a little bit stubborn with his arguments. When he felt he had a certain idea that was it. He was a hard person to change or to convince.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think--was Jack a personally ambitious person?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were his aspirations and his ambitions? I want you to tell us from your own personal knowledge. Do you have any personal knowledge of what his aspirations and ambitions were, did he ever talk to you about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I feel he always wanted to be successful and he was capable, and always trying to meet the right type of people, where he could either be friendly or have knowledge to a promotion. Let’s put it that way. To him a promotion was the greatest thing in his life, something to have exclusive that was his, with his experience in selling items and promoting items, or promoting an individual, where he would get some profit out of it, that was his ambition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he interested in the promotion aside from making money, was he interested in any notoriety that he might get out of it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was not the type, I am trying to tell you. Jack was not the notorious type of a person. Because of all the fights that he had, he never came home and told us about one. We had to hear it from his friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do anything, did he promote anything which would have also involved the promotion of himself?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Explain that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, for example, in the promotion of this Little Daddy, would it have become known that, generally known that, this was Jack’s boy? Would Jack have received some recognition for that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Possibly. It is possible naturally being in the entertainment field and Jack was learning more and more about the entertainment field and the prospects of promotion in another form, naturally he would have to be recognized as he is the one who found Sugar Daddy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other thing that he was promoting, any products that he was promoting?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; some vitamin deal down there. He mailed us a sample that somebody was making something down there but I couldn’t see it. He mailed me a sample of that, too, I believe. Somebody was making a vitamin pill down there that Jack got ahold of and he became the distributor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted you to sell them. You started out to tell us about the twistboard.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how Jack contacted you on the twistboard. Tell us what happened.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted me to call on the department stores on the road. He says that is where they sell best. I would make about $3 a dozen which is a good deal, because if they start selling the reorders would come in automatically, the missionary work is hard, when you are making $3 a dozen on an item that sells for $1.69 that is a pretty good profit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you thought Jack’s idea as far as pricing was concerned, he was talking about selling them for $1.69?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Retail, I think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Retail for somewhere less than $2?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you would have made?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Three dollars a dozen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Three dollars a dozen, which would have been how much on each item?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A quarter on each item.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; for a salesman, yes; that is about right. Especially for an item like that, I don’t think it costs very much to make, to be honest with you. Two pieces of board, and some kind of a gimmick in the center in between.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What was your response to that one?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I hadn’t had a chance to take it out. It was shortly before the incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you anything else in connection with it besides the board?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Literature. I think I got some literature if I can find it. I have got the board home, that I can show you, with the original wrapper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you to advertise in any newspapers or anything for him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t remember that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your intention to try to sell these and promote them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I didn’t ask him for the board. He just mailed it to me with all the literature after he spoke to me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he speak to you about it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember, several times, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he going to have a company name or anything that he was going to use?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it called?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Spartan; you see his nickname is “Sparky.” He was going to call it Spartan Manufacturing and Promotional.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get the nickname “Sparky”?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Fast, aggressive, quick thinker, always on the ball, you know, I imagine that is where he got the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t really know of your own knowledge?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but how else would a fellow get a name “Sparky”. Like a sparkplug, fast, you know, lightning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have occasion to call you in the fall of last year before November 22 for any reason other than about the twistboard?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; union trouble.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he call you about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember the exact date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he said to you and what you said to him about the union trouble.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t give you the exact words but I will come close to it. He wanted me to contact some people in Chicago who had connections with AGVA in New York, the president. I didn’t know anybody so I started calling people. I called everybody in Chicago I knew. One of the fellows I called was Jack Yanover. Jack Yanover owns the Dream Bar at 1312 South Cicero Avenue, a striptease joint.
Jack and I are old friends for many years, in fact, he is one of the oldest friends I have. Jack told me two things, Jack Yanover. First, my brother Jack was looking for girls down there, was only going to pay them $150 a week for 6 weeks’ work. So Jack Yanover explained to me, he says, “You cannot get a girl to go down to Dallas for 6 weeks’ work for $150 a week and she will have to pay her own expenses, that is out. They won’t do it.” And the second problem was with the union. Jack Yanover told me that the people in Chicago, the agents, the union agents, had no connection with the agents in Dallas. It would have to come from New York, and Joey Adams, I think, is one of the big men in the organization, the entertainer Joey Adams, president. So I tried to call some people in Chicago who could get to Joey Adams or anybody else in the New York deal. I didn’t succeed, let’s put it that way. I remember now. We didn’t succeed. It was just one of those things that didn’t work out, and if I am not mistaken I think Jack tried to call some of the other boys in Chicago, one bail bondsman, I can’t think of his name, and then he tried to call Lenny Patrick, I believe, Lenny Patrick, and then I think he tried to call somebody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a fellow named Barney Baker?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Baker?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Baker, did you ever hear of him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How does Jack know Lenny Patrick?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Everybody knows Lenny Patrick. When you go to school you know everybody in a school, grade school or even high school, and if you lived on the west side you know Lenny Patrick because Lenny Patrick, you walk into a delicatessen or into a poolroom, “Hi, Lenny,” “Hi, Jack,” that is how you know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Lenny Patrick do?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know what he does.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he make an honest living?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think gambling is his biggest racket. I think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a fellow in New York by the name of Frank Carbonaro?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Carbonaro. He is the guy who used to ship my merchandise for me when I was in business for myself. 811 East 242d Street, Bronx 70, N.Y.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his connection with the shipping?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He bought my merchandise for me and he shipped it to me for my customers. You see New York is the ribbon market of the world. You can’t get the stuff anywhere else than in New York, certain items, and Frankie took care of those things for me. I paid him a commission on every order. That is how it worked out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Morris Paper Mill Co., did you have some dealings with them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; all the time. I buy paper boxes from them, Morris, Ill., florist boxes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything else that Jack called you about before November 22 of last year?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you would give me an inkling I will give you an answer. I won’t lie to you because I have nothing to hide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you about Eva?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he was having a little trouble with Eva, I think. She was sick. Yes. Eva was sick and going for an operation, so I mailed her a check for $100, make her feel better. I mailed it to the club. So Jack would give it to Eva so she would have $100 to help her with the operation. That was it, and he loved me for it. He said that was wonderful. He said, she hasn’t been up here for many years and she thought that we had completely ignored her. So he thought by doing that she felt closer to the family, that we were thinking of her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about Eva?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always, always.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Whenever he called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Last fall, did he ever make any special telephone calls about her?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t think of anything special.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s focus again on the twistboard. Was Jack planning to manufacture the twistboard?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; somebody down there was making it for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any other people he talked to about the twistboard in connection with promoting it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was going to call some other people. I don’t remember who the names were. I wasn’t too much concerned because frankly, I do not have enough time to donate to an item that is not relating to my business because when you walk into a department store, you can be tied up for 2 solid hours selling something to a buyer if you find him, and 2 hours a day is a lot of my time when I am on the road trying to call on my own customers. So, therefore, I wasn’t too much interested, that is my answer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you the names of any other people who were associated with him in the twistboard?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t think of the name. There is somebody down there, yes, but I don’t know who he is. I wasn’t concerned, I was only interested in Jack. If Jack wanted to promote it I was going to try to find him some other fellows to help with selling it. I never got any chance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many days a week do you work?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am on the road 240 days a year when I am working right, you know, when I get started right, before November 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You work Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you on November 22, the day the President was shot?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I happened to be in Chicago. I was at the Harry Eichenbaum’s store, Merrill Manufacturing Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there, at what time of the day?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At the moment when the President got assassinated. When the people heard it on the radio, I didn’t believe it, nobody believed it. Who could believe a thing like that? And then all of a sudden everything seemed to quiet down, the whole area, and then it finally leaked out that it was the truth. My God, you could know it is like an atomic bomb hit you. It is just one of those things. We all loved this guy. He was a real guy. He was a friend of our people, too, by the way, which is important to us in America.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened, what did you do after you learned the President was shot?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What was there to be done, nothing. Nobody could work. Everything seemed to stand still. I finished my business, what I had to do, I picked up some stuff downtown, I think--yes, I remember, I went out to the Flavor Candy Co. and picked up a couple of cases of candy because the girl told me about it the other day, she said, “Remember you were here on that Friday, November 22.” She knew all about the family. She knows the family, and I says, “Was I here that day?” She says, “Yes. That is the last time we saw you.” I didn’t even remember where I was that day. I mean the thing hits you like a shock. It just isn’t right, it isn’t normal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I probably went home. I probably did. I don’t know, because I was home that Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is living with you at your house?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marion Carroll, my sister, and Ann Volpert.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Marion and Ann normally work on Fridays? Were they both employed?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So there would be nobody home during the day.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have another sister, is that right, Eileen?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eileen is married and lives about 2 miles west from where we do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she work?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; she has two little girls she has to take care of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what happened when you got home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Friday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you talked to and so forth?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened? Let’s try to take this, if we can, chronologically. What happened when you walked in the door?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t remember that particular incident. You mean what time I got home and what happened? I don’t remember. I don’t even remember who was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the first thing you remember doing when you were home that evening or afternoon?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The family was--our family couldn’t believe it because it happened in Dallas. It was a bad rap for the city of Dallas and we having there members of our family down there, sort of like a black mark; you know, it sort of gets you. How come of all the places, in Dallas? You know. Then we got a call. Would you mind me telling you about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to know about that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At 9 o’clock Friday night we got a call from Jack. He felt very, very bad about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he talk to you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, quite a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say 10 or 15 minutes. He was disgusted with the whole situation down there. He said, “You know this is a good time for me to sell out and come back up north.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. To me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I didn’t know what to tell him. What can I tell him. I am a thousand miles away from him. I don’t know what the answer could be, I hadn’t seen him in quite a while. I don’t know what his position is down there. I couldn’t see what his selling out would help with losing our wonderful President. It was too close to the assassination to even think. What could you tell a person?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he want to sell out?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was so disgusted and fed up with the whole God damn town, that is why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was upset with Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Absolutely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what he said that indicated that, and what his earlier problems had been that would have, you know, made him feel that way?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, he had no problems outside of this union, and the hiring, getting new girls for the show. That he probably could have straightened out eventually; and he was going all right. He was making money, I imagine, because I believe he was paying all his bills. I think he owed Uncle Sam a little money but he straightened that out eventually.
But the fact is that he probably didn’t want to have any connection between a city that murdered his President and him--he just wanted to separate himself from that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that indicated that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Because he said, “This is a good time for me to sell out and come back up north.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all you can remember him saying?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all I can remember him saying. He says, he started off, “Can you imagine, can you imagine,” like that, and he sounded like he had tears in his eyes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else do you recall him saying during that conversation?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I couldn’t say much, because we still felt that sickness when the President got shot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do most of the talking?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I let him talk, I wanted him to talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want him to talk?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Because he was so close to the situation. He was close to Dallas. He probably has got some facts that we didn’t get out here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him what was going on down there?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I didn’t ask him anything because I felt it was enough. I didn’t want to know anything. That was enough to hear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your two sisters home when you called?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think that Mary spoke to him first and then I got on the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did you speak to him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About, I would say 10 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your sisters speak to him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. We weren’t--we had the television turned on, I had my television turned on, in the living room trying to get the news.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you clear in your mind that this conversation about thinking about coming back----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that it happened on, at the 9 o’clock telephone call.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 9 o’clock telephone call, Friday night, the day of the assassination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did Jack make some other calls to you in the next day or so?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he did. I think he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, do you have any clear recollection?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I think he called everybody. He called Eileen, and I think he called us, and he called Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just asking you to think about what happened to you. What did you do after the telephone call?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I hung up. What is there to do?
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the rest of the evening?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I sat down and watched the rest of the program on television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear again from Jack that night?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I don’t think we did. It was too late then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you hear from any of your other friends or relatives?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eileen called, I think, after that. She said, “Jack called me,” my sister Eileen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And she called the house, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your understanding that Jack called both you and Eileen?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think he talked to Eileen before or after?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, he could have called her before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of his call at 9 o’clock?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Good; I am glad you asked me that. Because when I was in Dallas during the trial they were supposed to subpena me as a witness.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Our wonderful lawyer Belli, so Eva and I sat in the hall through the whole trial waiting to be called as witnesses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For your brother?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My brother Jack and also about this telephone call. Bob Dennison, our investigator, who the lawyer hired, gave me this message.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Bob Dennison had checked some records and found that you had--that he had made a call at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted me to have it so that I would be able to tell the judge and the jury exactly what happened that Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What you have done is handed me an orange sheet of paper which says, “While you were out” and then there is a message written down on it, “Call to Hyman in Chicago, call made from WH 1-5601, to SH 3-0984 on November 22, 1963, on 9:02 p.m.”
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Do you want this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I have read it into the record and that is satisfactory. Thank you.
Aside from that note that Mr. Dennison gave you what recollection do you have that you placed the call at about 9 o’clock?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know it was after 8 o’clock because we had dinner late that evening or something, and I remember getting a call later on in the evening.
I didn’t know it was exactly 9 o’clock. I didn’t know, until Bob handed me the note.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that places the call before 10 o’clock?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Too late. I mean we usually don’t get many calls after 9 o’clock at home, usually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, but----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Under normal procedures we don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about this particular call that makes you think it was before 10 o’clock?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think so. I don’t know why. I can’t give you a real honest answer, I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a clear recollection that not only you talked with Jack but that your sisters Marion and Ann talked on that call?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am almost positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you again the rest of the weekend? Did you hear from him again?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he did call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you recall hearing from him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he called Saturday night. I think he called the night after. I think so. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about what was said at that time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t because if I remember what he said I would remember if he would have called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to think back again to this telephone call and ask yourself if other than this one statement that Jack made about wanting to close the place and come back to Chicago, if there was anything else that Jack said on the phone that indicated to you that he was disgusted and upset with the situation in Dallas, that is with Dallas as a place to stay.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All I can say is this: I believe from the tone of his voice he felt very much heartbroken and very sad and he felt he had lost a very dear friend and he wanted to get away from that site.
Like, let’s say like, being removed from the scene of the crime. He just wanted to get away from it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you talk about disgust or revulsion, do you mean to direct it, could it have simply meant that the recent--that the events that upset him--or do you think he made some special connection with the city itself that he was living in so he wanted--you know you have indicated here he was making some special connection with this place as a place he wanted to have nothing more to do with it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the way he felt because he lost a very dear friend, that is what I am trying to bring out. He just wanted to get away. He wanted to sell out and he was having----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what he would do after that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. With a fellow like Jack you don’t have to worry what he can do. He can do a thousand things and make a living. He is very capable. And he has got a good mouthpiece. He has proved it before he went into the nightclub business. He was in the manufacturing business with Earl, he walked out with a nice piece of change.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in the habit of keeping your papers and records that you make over the years. Do you retain these?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What kind of papers?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Receipts and check stubs and things of that sort.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I try to. I try the best I can in my own small way. I am my own bookkeeper, my own recorder, my own lawyer, and my own everything and I try to keep them as best as I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far back do you keep them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are supposed to keep them for 4 years, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long do you keep them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I try to keep them for 4 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that when you were interviewed by one of the FBI agents that you showed him your receipt for the piano that you sent? How did you happen to keep that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. By accident. Just one of those incidents. Did you see the color of that sheet, how it looked?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t seen it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, brother. You would never believe that a receipt would last that long. Of course, you could always check it with the piano company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d of November?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. If I had my daybook here--I have a daybook I keep my notes in for what I am supposed to do, like you lawyers do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to work?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I could get my daybook and tell you exactly what I did, nothing to hide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have it here in Washington?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I can tear out the sheet and mail it to you. Would you like that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It would be fine. Would you want to make a note of that? In fact, if you can run off a copy just send us a copy.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t need it. What do I need it for? I have nothing to hide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you send us----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The whole book. Do you want the whole book, you can have it. Mail the book. I have nothing to hide in there. A couple of telephone numbers, call them and say I said hello.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do on Sunday, do you recall getting up on Sunday the 24th?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had breakfast and went out for the newspapers and I came back and all of a sudden there was--was there anybody in the house at that particular time--oh, that was a black Sunday. Eileen called, screaming. Eva called, screaming, and they hung up. All we could get was “Jack Ruby, Dallas,” you know.
I turned on the television, turned on the television and they showed the event of everything, you know, the recording of what took place. We couldn’t believe it. I still don’t believe it. I still don’t believe it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first learn of what Jack had done from your sisters?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. They called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You, I take it, were not watching television or listening to the radio?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I didn’t think I was. Because I was walking through the hallway when the phone rang and I forget whether I picked up the phone or Mary picked up the phone. You see Ann doesn’t answer the phone because she doesn’t get many calls. Her son is on the west coast, so we, Mary and I, pick up the phone. It was like an atomic bomb hitting the top of the house and everything caved in on you, like a disaster. It is just unbelievable. If a family has incorrigibles where they get into trouble and you get them out of jail, and the family is used to it, you know, you feel OK. But we never had anything like that in our lives, nothing. We are not accustomed to such things. We all work for a living, some of us work very hard. We are not the notorious type, we don’t care for no publicity. We all have pretty good personalities. My customers still laugh at my corny stories I tell them the year before. I don’t have to impress anybody. We don’t go for none of that big shot stuff.
So, when this thing hit us, you people can’t imagine, and then the phone started to ring. It kept ringing from that Sunday morning from reporters, and newspaper people from all over the country, and it just didn’t stop. We didn’t know what to say. It was just sickening. We had no answer for them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go to Dallas at any time in the fall of--before the President was assassinated?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Dallas afterward?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you go?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just before Christmas, let’s say December 23, 24, and 25. No; on Christmas day I was on the road so I probably was there for 2 or 3 days around that period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know any of Jack’s friends in Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; because I wasn’t familiar with Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I met him later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known him before then?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never even heard of the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about George Senator?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with raising money for the defense?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you had to do with that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Here is a copy of, almost like this that we placed in certain newspapers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply read this into the record. You have handed me a sheet of paper on which is printed in capital letters on the first line, “Appeal for Fair Play.” And on the second line “Save Jack Ruby” with three exclamation marks after it. Then in lowercase letters with the initial capitals “Funds for his Defense Needed” on one line. “Send your Contributions to:” on the next line, and then in all caps under that “Jack Ruby Defense Fund Committee,” then with initial caps and lowercase letters “P.O. Box 5226, Chicago 80, Illinois.”
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an advertisement you say you ran?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They ran it in several newspapers. One was the New York Times, I believe. It was rather unsuccessful, rather unsuccessful. But here is one we sent out 2,000 letters and we lost $200 out of it. We got $5 back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a copy of a letter on the stationery headed “Jack Ruby Appeal Committee”.
Now, do you want this stationery?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can have it. Just keep it. Keep this, too, so you will have it for your records.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark the “Appeal for Fair Play” advertisement as “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5, 1964, Exhibit No. 1,” and let me ask you if you will sign it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Down here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All right.
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next piece of paper, the letter on Jack Ruby Appeal Committee stationery I am going to mark “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5, 1964, Exhibit No. 2,” and ask you if you will sign this also.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. I have got “Hy Rubenstein.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Now, Exhibit No. 2 is a letter addressed to “Dear Friend” dated April 30, 1964, and signed by Michael Levin, Chairman of the Jack Ruby Appeal Committee.
Members of the committee listed on the left-hand side are Michael Levin, Chairman, Marty Eritt, Blanca Fortgang, Elmer Gertz, Ann Osborne, Barney Ross.
Who is Blanca Fortgang?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, probably a friend of Mike Levin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Elmer Gertz?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Also the fellow who got the letter up and the ad up, a friend of Mike Levin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ann Osborne?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know who she is. I think she is the one who got the letter out and got the list of names that was submitted to Mike Levin, the 2,000 names that cost us $200.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now were Fortgang, Gertz, and Osborne friends of your brother, did they know Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I am almost positive that not one of those people even know Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike, Michael Levin.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Mike is our family lawyer. Mike knew Jack ever since he was a kid.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Eritt?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marty Eritt I told you they probably went to school together and probably knew each other on the West Side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Barney Ross he has known all his life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your connection with the Jack Ruby Appeal Committee?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It was hard to get members names. A lot of people, business people, don’t want to put their names on this kind of a committee. So I used my name, I said, “Mike, go ahead and use my name.”
I had nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of. We needed money.
Those trials are expensive, gentlemen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was handling the funds for the defense?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the money that was raised by the Jack Ruby Appeal Committee? Did Earl have anything to do with that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with the raising of funds other than this letter and this advertisement?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nothing outside of these two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you talked with your brother Jack after the shooting?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it was down in Dallas. I believe it was down in Dallas when I was down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was December sometime?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir, either the 22d or the 23d of December is as close as I can get to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing him on that occasion?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long you talked to him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Quite a while. I think I was there with Eva, and who else was down there, Sammy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you said to him and what he said?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What did we talk about: Something about, this is the gist of it if I can remember right because I walked away thinking about it to myself that he loved the President and something happened to him, that he don’t remember exactly what it was, and all that I remembered is the last time when he was down at the Western Union office when he wired that dancer of his $25 that she needed for room rent and I says, “What else, Jack?” And he said, “That is all I can remember.”
Then he mentioned something about the policemen down in Dallas. He said they lied. He said, “I didn’t say any of those things.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been after the trial that he mentioned that to you. I am talking about conversations he had before the trial.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, that is right, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that meeting?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, there wasn’t much to say. First of all they have a little piece of glass that big that you can see him through.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about 6 by 6.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is hard to talk to people through a piece of glass like that. You have got a barrier between you. He looked good. Jack looked good, but he didn’t act right. He looked disturbed to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him, what did you see that----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wasn’t our Jack 100 percent. There was something bothering him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I am not a psychiatrist. I can’t figure the man out. We knew it wasn’t right. We thought it was the environment in the jail, maybe he was mistreated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about the time you saw him before the--before Christmas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say or what indications did you see about his face or mannerisms?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Something like “What are they keeping me here for, what have they got me in here for?”
Half sentences. He asked me if I called certain people and here I haven’t even known any people. He gave me a list of names to call and I tried to write them down, you know, quick and I didn’t know nobody. I didn’t want to argue with him. I didn’t want to aggravate his situation. I didn’t want to disturb him any more than I had to and he gave me names, called off names, I said I will get in touch with them.
Later on when I went out with Eva, I said, “Who are these people I am supposed to call?” She says, “Forget about it. He gives me the same thing, people I am supposed to see and call to help him.” I didn’t know. And he wanted us to get every lawyer in the State of Texas. “Did you call this guy? Did you call Percy Foreman and did you call him?” I didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know who to call. We were strangers in Texas. We were never in trouble before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you to call people other than lawyers?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His personal friends, his personal friends. I think some owed him some money, no names were mentioned that Eva didn’t know. She knew all the names he mentioned. That is why she told me to forget about it. She probably had already contacted them. Friends in Dallas, personal people who were either very dear friends of his and club members. And he was worried more about the dogs than he was about anybody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the occasion that you went down to see him before Christmas, was that at the time of the bail bond hearing? Do you remember the hearings?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember what the hearing was but I was down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down there for a hearing in December?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I think it was a bail bond hearing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he was more concerned about the dogs?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Than anything else?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir; worried about his dogs. I figured that was odd. Here is a man incarcerated, in prison for a shooting and here he is worried about his dogs and that didn’t make any sense to me.
You know, there was no logic there. I can understand how a man can be in love with a dog or dogs but why bring it up at a time like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me that you saw him during the trial or after the trial?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see him in the course of the trial?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wait a minute. In the course of the trial, I couldn’t see him in the courtroom but we saw him in the evening, I think--I think we were allowed to see him in the evening, I think. I am not sure. I don’t want to make a statement I am going to be responsible for because I can’t--I think we saw him in the evening. Yes; I think we saw him in the evening, after the trial. I think the hours were from 7:30 to 8:30 and the sheriff was very nice. He let all of us go up one time, the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you allowed in his jail cell?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, no; outside, through that little piece of glass only.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe that cell? Is there any other, is it possible to see out other than through that glass?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. See what out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are inside were there any other windows, could you look in through the glass and see windows or anything in that cell?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it is inside. It is inside the center. It is one of these rooms that are inside, see. It is a separate room. It is not his room. It is like a visiting room that they bring him in from another part of the building into this particular room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see the cell that he was in?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His own personal cell?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to see anything of the prisoner other than through this glass, this 6-inch glass?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just about up to here is all you can see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about the middle of your chest.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything you want to tell us about the conversations you had with him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In general, how he is feeling, how he is getting along. How is the food. The sheriff told us that “Any time he doesn’t like to eat the stuff we give him,” and this was also $20 left downstairs for him someplace so that Jack could order what he wanted but nobody was allowed to bring in any food or candy from the outside, only the sheriff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was money left downstairs for him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes; we would do that for a stranger. It is our brother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he been supplied, has money been made available to him throughout his incarceration?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He received quite a bit of money from people who send it in to him, you know voluntarily, telegrams, letters, money, money orders. He got money from all over the country. One country in Europe invited him to come over as a guest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see the letter of the invitation?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think we have the letter home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What country was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think Rhodesia.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has the family, however, provided sort of a weekly allowance for Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We could always see that Jack would get whatever he needs. They don’t allow too much in there in the first place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated he was left, at least while you were down there during the trial he was left, enough money so that he could order meals from the outside.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If he wanted it, naturally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about before the trial, was he given money for that purpose?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I think he had money because he was getting donations all the time in letters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Telegrams by the hundreds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he feel about those letters and telegrams?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He felt pretty good that he didn’t fight the case alone. He felt like he had help.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he think the cause was?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Of course, there was always cranks who didn’t agree with what he did. We don’t agree with what he did, either. You don’t avenge a wrong with another wrong but I told the television people this, and I am going to tell it to you. Chances are this was a hundred million people. If they were down in Dallas at the same time Jack was, if they had a gun in their hand they probably would have done the same thing. I don’t say they would have, probably. Just one of those incidents. May I add something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack left a Western Union office at 11:17, stamped by his receipt from the money order that he mailed to Fort Worth. The maid knocked on his door at 8 o’clock that morning to clean up his room. Jack says, “Come back at 2 o’clock.” Which meant he wanted to sleep. The girl called him at 10 o’clock from Fort Worth, about there, Jack got up, took his dog, Sheba, drove down to the Western Union, wired $25 to this, I can’t think of her name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Little Lynn.
He saw the commotion about 450 feet down, and he wanted to know what was going on and he just happened to be there, and it was figured out 6 more seconds Jack would have missed the whole thing, if he had hesitated, because they were walking Oswald from the station to the wagon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Jack at all about his activities prior to the shooting and how he got in?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; we didn’t even mention anything like that. We weren’t concerned with what happened before. We were worried, we were wondering and worried why, and the only answer I can give you is he must have blacked out. You just black out and you do things like that. It is like punching somebody in the nose and then you feel sorry for it later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps this would be a good time for you, unless you want to break for lunch now----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t care. Can I add something to this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to ask you if we can go on here maybe we can finish up.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In an hour?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Less than that. Why don’t you take an opportunity now to tell us what you would like to tell us that I haven’t covered in the questioning.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. May I add how a person can possibly shoot a guy like Oswald, may I give you an example?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A player is sitting on the football bench, a sub. A man on the opposite team is running with the ball. The player gets off the bench and tackles the guy with the ball. What do you call the instinct, compulsion. That is the same situation with Jack. How do you account for it. You don’t know. He had no business getting off that bench. He is not even playing in the game any more than Jack had any business being in that station. That is my answer why Jack did it. May I add this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That police department is using Jack as a scapegoat for their mistakes. Anything--they have nobody else to blame it on, Jack Ruby. “You were responsible for the whole deal.” They are blaming everything on him, and that is one of the reasons why these policemen lied to save their own skins.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which policemen?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All five that testified. Jack never said those things. He told me he never said those things about going to shoot him three times. No man tells you he is going to shoot a person three times. And then about him saying that the Jews are cowards and he stuck up for the Jews.
Jack is not that type of a guy because he doesn’t talk about those things. Sure he is a Jew but you don’t go out telling the world about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the things that Jack specifically denied when he talked to you about those policemen’s testimony?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us which ones they were?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All of them. He said--Jack did not talk to any of the policemen at all. He said he didn’t say anything like that at all to them. He don’t even recall mentioning anything that those five policemen testified that he talked to them about, anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention those specific things or did he just talk generally about it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just generally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you mentioned, for example, you said something about the Jewish motivation or whatever it was.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I don’t think Jack would talk like that to a businessman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention that particular topic to you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the shooting the three times, did he mention that particular incident?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No: but he said he would never discuss those things in general.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That television man who was downstairs taking movies of the thing, he made--he was testifying on the stand that at 10:25 and at 10:35 Jack came over and asked him twice when they were going to bring out Oswald. If he was 11:17 in the Western Union and got up to mail the money to this Little Lynn what would he be doing down at the station at 10:25. And who would dare walk into a police station with 30 policemen in front of television and radio reporters and shoot anybody unless you blacked out. The man must be crazy to do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This one episode about the police officers’ testimony is apparently something that sticks in your mind. How many conversations did you have with Jack about the policemen’s testimony?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Didn’t have hardly any. We don’t talk about those things, what happened at the trial. We didn’t want to relive the trial. We didn’t want to relive the shooting even.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear about, when did you first hear Jack deny that he had said the things that the policemen testified to?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It either could have been in December or it could have been right, at one of the nights of the trial. I don’t remember which. I don’t know when those statements were made. It could have been after the trial. Because that is when the FBI took the report, too, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva and Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sam might have been present at another time but I don’t think he was present at that particular time. It could have been. I don’t remember, you know when you have got problems on your head that are heavy, you don’t pick out, pinpoint different things. Nobody is that good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you recall, can you form a visual image in your own mind of going up there and seeing Jack on the occasion that he talked about the police officers’ testimony?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; because we saw him often. We saw him many times, we saw him in the evening during the trial and after the trial we saw him in the afternoon and evening both. So there was a lot of visits made between myself and also other members of the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about anything else about Jack, that might have caused Jack to do this. Do you have any other things you want to tell us about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I believe I have mentioned the most important things and gave you gentlemen some good examples. Yes; you didn’t ask me what led up to this thing, how come?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you now.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Did you know he went out at 3 o’clock in the morning with George Senator and Larry Crafard, the kid that watched the nightclub, at nighttime and took tickets for Jack, Jack charged $2 a ticket to get into his club. It was no bums’ hangout. It was a classy joint. So Larry used to take the tickets and also sleep there at nighttime. Jack got up to go at 3 o’clock in the morning one time, and this was told to me by both, George Senator and Larry, they went out and they took a picture of a great big billboard, “Impeach Earl Warren,” the pictures and camera were in the car that Jack was going to use as evidence when the city policemen confiscated his car, you can make a note of this, they took the camera, they took the pictures, they took his adding machine, and they took his spare tire. What a bunch of characters down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What has become of that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We would like to know. They took his diamond ring, they took a very good wristwatch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked for that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And his blue suit he wore when he shot Oswald, we would like to have that all back, and his gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked for it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think they have but they haven’t had any success. If Jack cannot have the gun, then we would like to submit it to the Smithsonian Institution or in his library.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kennedy’s Library?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is right. Because Jack bought the gun legitimately in a Dallas store under his name. And also when he walked into that newspaper office, and there was a big black border around, a full page ad signed by somebody by the name of Weissman, Jack didn’t like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear about that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva told me this. Eva says, “You know, Jack came here one day showing me all this thing and I couldn’t believe it.”
You know, when a person reads a paper you don’t always pay attention. It was addressed not to the President of the United States. I understand the ad was addressed to Mr. Kennedy with grievances, signed by the committee. With a post office and box number in Dallas, with a black border around a full-page ad. When Jack was changing the ad of his closing dates of the club the minute the President got shot in the newspapers, he got ahold of someone in the newspaper office, as I understand it, and that man will have to testify, and Jack said to him, “Do you have to accept an ad like this? Is business that bad? The other newspapers in town didn’t take it.” Then he went over Saturday morning to the post office and got ahold of one of the clerks and he says, “Can you tell me who belongs to this post office box number,” and the clerk says, “We can’t tell you that.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hyman, what do you think is the significance of Jack’s concern with the ad and with the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And the ad calling Mr. Kennedy instead of “Mr. President,” with the grievance committee to----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think that signifies about Jack’s concern?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He didn’t like the signature for one which was a Jewish name. And he thought it was another organization disgracing the Jews.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you get that impression that that was his--how do you get that impression?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the way it would hit me. Why would an organization like this put down the name Weissman and put down all these grievances in the newspapers with a black border around it and then--oh, when he couldn’t find--when Jack couldn’t find--the name of the owner of the post office box so he asked the clerk, “Does this ad belong to Oswald,” and the clerk says, “I can’t answer you that, either.” He thought there was a connection between this and Oswald, and Oswald was using a phoney name in the ad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack told you any of that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva, because Eva spoke to Jack about it, and Jack told Eva that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that Eva learned this from Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From Jack directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he thought Oswald was using a phoney name in the advertisement and trying to disgrace the Jews?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And also disgracing the President. You don’t call a President Mr. Kennedy. You call him Mr. President with respect to his title. And also trying to disgrace the name of Earl Warren, Supreme Court Justice of the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he thought Oswald might have done the same thing?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right or his organization or somebody connected with that group whoever it was. He couldn’t understand it, somebody was doing it. There was the evidence and that bothered him. It kept boiling in him and boiling in him and finally he blew up and when he saw Oswald then he really blew up, and that is all I can tell you, gentlemen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard of anything that happened in Dallas between the time the President was shot and the time that Jack shot Oswald----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have led Jack to think that other people thought the Jews were behind the assassination of the President?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I did not hear anything like that. You see we didn’t go down to Dallas--I didn’t go down there to Dallas--until almost Christmas time. That was almost a whole month so I didn’t know anything about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to make sure my question is clear because it is possible that it can be misunderstood. I am not suggesting that the Jews were--that the Jews were behind the assassination.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Of course not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting is that there might have been that kind of talk in Dallas which might have disturbed Jack and whether you heard that there was, whether you heard that there was such kind of talk going on in Dallas that did disturb him.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The only talk that I heard from people in Dallas that there are a lot of anti-Semites who don’t like Jews. That is the only talk I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where? Had you heard that before you went down to Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; after I got down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any personal experiences with Jack that would shed some light on his sensitivity about his position as a person of Jewish background in the community--personal experiences that you would have?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except what I heard from the Bund meetings in Chicago from his friends. His own friends told me he used to go break them up, and that takes a little guts to walk into a meeting and break it up, in my opinion. How many guys would do that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to digress here a bit.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Good, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, when you were traveling in Michigan on your job, did you have occasion to visit Earl, your brother Earl, at his home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At the plant?
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the plant.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure; several times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to use his telephone, make calls from his plant?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I possibly could have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--have you ever had any dealings with any people in Massachusetts in the course of your business?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; the Necco Confectionery Co., 254 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge 39, Mass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were your dealings with them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you give me an order for $100 or $150 for ribbons or for novelties whatever you use in your florist business, I like you. I like you. So I go to my car and I says, “Wait a minute, I have got something for the wife, not for you,” tease you. I go over and I get a can of imported English candy. “Take this home to the family.” “Thank you, Hy, come back again, you are a nice guy.” That is how I had business in Massachusetts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you doing this now?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always. I still do it. I got a half case home now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other candy companies you deal with?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Flavor; same thing. I buy half pound bags of hard candy, if the order is only $50, I can’t afford to give them a box of candy, mints.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Welch Candy Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never, don’t even know them. But I think this Necco bought out the Welch Co., but I am not sure. That Necco is a big outfit now but I never done any business with Welch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had any occasion to communicate with any people in Latin America?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes: I think I sent down one time a sample, somebody gave them my name, how I got it, I don’t know, some ribbons. He wanted me to quote them prices on ribbons. So I mailed them some sample ribbons. I never heard from them no more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember, this was years ago, 5, 6 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--have you any occasion to communicate with anybody in Havana?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know anybody in Havana. Jack had friends there. Jack had a lot of friends there when the gambling was going good and one of his friends from Dallas was a big shot down there and he invited Jack down. Jack told me this himself. He invited Jack down to stay with him for a week and Jack flew down, I think, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this question directly.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever having sent a telegram to Havana, Cuba, from your brother Earl’s telephone?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A telegram? No. I would have no reason for it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody outside of Earl’s family or employees who might have used his business phone?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl has got 110 employees, God bless him. You know anybody can pick up a phone in an office with 110 employees and make a call or call Western Union and charge it to the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you outside of that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I never did, no. Havana, Cuba, is as strange to me as what was that word I gave you before, as Rhodesia. I think Jack went down there one time and he had a connection for automobiles. This was when Castro first went down there, I think it was in 1950. At that time Castro was a friend of the United States. Jack was going to try to sell them a lot of trucks or cars or something. Anyhow, the deal fell through, whatever it was, with his friends from Dallas; may I add this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you are trying to infer that Jack had any connections with Castro or communism, that is not our brother. First of all, Jack couldn’t even spell communism. I mean it in the sense of the word, the relationship, none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say I don’t want to infer anything. I am simply asking you questions to clarify matters.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can clarify it right now. I will bet my life that Jack wouldn’t have anything to do and never did with anybody. Jack didn’t go for that kind of stuff. He wasn’t that kind of a man. These Communists are supposed to be well read, beatniks, students of universities. Jack doesn’t qualify for that kind of a deal. His friends are showgirls, tavern owners, gamblers, other nightclub people, promoters, manufacturers, that was his life, that is all. He opened two nightclubs. What has he got to do with these other kinds of people? What has he got to gain by it? He was doing good. He wore good clothes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any political interests?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t think so; not in Dallas, I don’t think in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any political interest in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was the only politician but we were all Democrats for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get involved in politics at all in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss politics with him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I never even knew the incidents about the chair with Roosevelt until this manager of the Zebra, the manager of the Zebra Cafe on 63d Street, I have got to get you his name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Told me about it. I never heard of it because he doesn’t talk about those things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you want to bring to the attention of the Commission?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was a loyal 1,000 percent American, served in the Army for 3 years with the best record of our family, of all the boys who were in the service, and by the way, when my father went down with Jack and Earl and Sammy to enlist in the service, my father says to the recruiting officer, “Take me” and he must have been at least 65 years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t go into the service until some time in 1943?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. After I came out he went in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack applied for deferment initially, didn’t he?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; because he was the only one home. We were all in. My mother was alone. Earl was in, Earl was in the Seabees, Sammy was in the Air Corps and I was in the Field Artillery.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There has been a rumor that Jack feigned a hearing disability in order to avoid military service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Not Jack. No; not Jack. No; he was a good soldier and I told you before he had the best record of all of us on his discharge papers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think maybe we can conclude here. I am asking you to identify some interview reports that we have, and I will give you a chance to read them over. I am going to mark for identification three different exhibits.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. O.K.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first one is an interview report prepared by Special Agent George H. Parfet.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start with these chronologically. The first one is a copy of an interview report prepared by special agents of the FBI, Maurice J. White and Robert B. Lee, of an interview that they had with you on November 24, 1963, in Chicago.
I am going to mark this “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5th, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.” This consists of two pages numbered at the bottom 193 and 194, respectively.
I will hand you the exhibit and ask you to read it over and then I will ask you some questions about it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is about correct. Because I didn’t know anything else.
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to examine Exhibit No. 3.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any corrections you feel ought to be made in that report?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The only thing I am doubtful is this, “He then had Jack as a salesman for several companies believed to be the Stanley Oliver Company and the Spartan Company now defunct.” That I am sure about. That is the only paragraph. The rest of it is 100 percent true. And that is the way it was as I remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you not sure that he had jobs with both companies?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Spartan Co. there was such a company and Jack and Harry Epstein was his partner at that time and they sold novelties and premiums.
By the way, Harry Epstein was a business associate of Jack’s for a good many years and knows him well. If there is anything that you might want to find out about his impetuousness or his decisive manner, because Harry and Jack always fought verbally, so Harry can give you a pretty good reason or reasons of his personality in that respect.
I don’t know where you can find Harry. He could be in Chicago, he could be anywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The family has lost track of him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, look; when the partnership breaks up--normally the partner comes over to the house and you meet him and see him and you have lunch with him. But when it breaks up you lose all contact with those people because he wasn’t my contact, he was Jack’s contact. And Jack being in Dallas all these years we didn’t even see Harry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harry, would you say Harry, was one of the people who knew him best when he lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One of the best.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you say, who else would you say, knew Jack best when Jack lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Benny Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his connection with Benny Kay.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very dear friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any business associates?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know as any business associates but Benny Kay is a well respected businessman in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking for important people who knew him.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Let’s say they bummed around together quite a bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if we were to go out and look for people who knew Jack better than anybody else, outside of the family, who were the people that you would name?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Put his name down, Benny Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else would you name?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Harry Epstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hershey Colvin, and this Marty Gimpel that died, Marty could have given you a better report than anybody. Because Marty lived with him down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about Chicago.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marty knew him from Chicago. Marty worked at the post office in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Alex Gruber?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Don’t know him. Never heard his name. Isn’t that odd? Of all the names that are in Chicago I never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sam Gordon?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sam Gordon was a business associate of Jack, but not as good as these others. Sam was in the highlight of the depression and then moved to L.A.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your idea was Benny Kay, Hershey Colvin and Harry Epstein outside of Marty Gimpel who is now deceased?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Those would be three as far as I know. You see we all had our own friends, so I didn’t know too many of Jack’s except when he would bring them to the house or we would meet somewhere by accident, downtown, somewhere, you know, run into each other in the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked--incidentally, if you are satisfied with that----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except for what I told you here the only incident was this Stanley Oliver Corp., I don’t know whether Jack sold any stuff, maybe he did. I don’t know about those things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you then sign on the first page, Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it in some conspicuous place.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. How about down here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. I will hand you now what I have marked for identification as “Exhibit No. 4, Washington, D.C., June 5th, 1964, deposition of Hyman Rubenstein.” This is a copy of the interview report prepared by Special Agent George Parfet in connection with an interview he had with you on November 27, 1963, in Chicago.
Take the time to read that, and tell us whether there are any corrections that you would make in that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. This is the part I forgot to tell you about, when Jack called and told me about the newspaper, I forgot, I couldn’t exactly remember. That is exactly what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When he called about the newspaper with the ad with the black border about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I believe he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said before that he called Eva and that you learned about this from Eva.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. But according to this, according to this, “The exact time of the shooting of the President of the United States his brother Jack had been in the office of a newspaper.”
It could have been that Eva told me this. You are right. That is right. Because he came over and had breakfast with Eva and he had tried to explain to her about the ad, whether she had noticed it, Eva said, “What do I notice about an ad?”
He said, “With the black border around it, and the, what was that word I used before, the twenty, what is that word where you have----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Grievances?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Grievances. The grievances. It was Eva. Should I sign this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would.
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are bringing back a lot of--what a deal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you remember anything in the course of reading that we haven’t covered, why let’s have it. Now is the time.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I don’t know. It is hard, gentlemen, it isn’t easy. It wasn’t a pleasant experience. It was a sad experience, and your mind wants to block out those things that you don’t want to remember. So, it is hard to remember every incident or every detail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If things come to your mind.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the reason we have asked you to come here is so that we can get----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know. Look, we had nothing to hide. Any member of the family will cooperate 100 percent. Any of our friends and lawyers will cooperate 100 percent or we want to know why. We don’t believe in shooting Presidents. Let’s put it that way. We love this country, and we make our living here, we all served in the army here. We were brought up in this country, and it is our duty to cooperate with a law enforcement agency or any agency that wants to investigate a thing of this type.
It is unfortunate that our brother Jack had to be involved but many of our friends feel that he is a hero because they felt they would have done the same thing under similar circumstances.
How can a man premeditate, his dog Sheba was in the car, $2,000 in cash, all that photographic equipment in the back trunk with the adding machine and the tire, the dog is waiting for him, and Jack happened to carry the gun because that was the night’s receipts in the car and he happened to have it with him and if that girl in Fort Worth hadn’t called him that morning at 10 o’clock, Jack would still have been sleeping and forgotten all about it.
So, the man must have blacked out, nothing else could convince me, and nothing else convinces any of my friends that I talked to. People who don’t even know him they said that is what must have happened. He blacked out. I understand that Jack cried like a baby when the President was shot. He cried more than when his own father died. His own father was 88 years old when he passed away in the year of 1958, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Rubenstein, who did you hear about the crying from? Who told you about the crying?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva; he made her sick. He came over there crying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Also from the rabbi in Dallas. He went to synagogue Saturday night, and he cried, and there is witnesses to prove it in the synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there people in the synagogue who saw him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. People in the synagogue that saw him crying when they had a special, some services for the President and they saw him crying and the rabbi saw him crying. They didn’t believe a guy like Jack would ever cry. I don’t know the rabbi’s name but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Silverman.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Silverman. He will testify to that and he will bring witnesses who saw him cry. Jack never cried in his life. He is not that kind of a guy to cry. Never complained about nothing. Never talked about any heroic deeds that he ever did. He didn’t go for that stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He wasn’t; you wouldn’t characterize him as somebody who bragged?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Far from it. He was reticent in that respect. But to help somebody in an emergency, the first one on the street to raise money for any occasion. Any policeman or fireman got hurt or the family needed something he is out there right away selling tickets, and chances are there wasn’t enough, he paid the difference himself whatever was needed.
Eva told me that, too. He didn’t tell me that. I heard it from people down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C. deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5th, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.” This is a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent John Golden as a result of an interview that he had with you in Chicago on December 9, 1963.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that interview?
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the truth like I told you. I don’t remember the dates. I know how I met John Paul Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Paul Roland Jones.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, John Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The fellow in the trial at Laredo, is that it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; how come it is John Paul Jones here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is apparently the name you gave. You understood the man’s name to be John Paul Jones.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, you see I didn’t even know his right name then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Jones you met you recall as being named John Paul Jones?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the name he gave me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any corrections or additions you would make to that statement?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; this is the truth. Jack did not know Jones--Jack wasn’t down there at the time when I went down there. Eva was alone down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say go down there do you mean----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Dallas. When I had to go down to Laredo I stopped off in Dallas to see Eva.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you are referring to going to Texas is when you went to the trial or was it another time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; regarding this, Laredo.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and you say when you went to the trial in Laredo it is your understanding Jack was not living in Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. Do you want me to sign this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, please. Very good. I say that because I appreciate your coming here and talking with us and taking this time, and I will ask you once again if there is anything else----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. These two things I will get for you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would we would appreciate that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all right. It is the least I can do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything else?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Anything also you might want to know drop me a note and I will be glad to answer it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We appreciate your cooperation.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We would like to get a new trial for Jack. Some of my friends say Jack should have gotten the Congressional Medal of Honor. They feel the same way I do about it. People say to me, why didn’t he wait for the investigation? How stupid can people be? Then it is premeditated. You don’t do things like that. Why wait for an investigation? Sure, it would have been a wonderful thing to have done but you can’t, you don’t know what is in the other man’s mind. I blame everything on the stupid Dallas police from every angle, even from that angle up there. They knew Oswald was in town, why didn’t they grab him. That is my opinion. They blame everything on Jack, the scapegoat, the poor guy has got to take it for the whole police department down there. You know that is the truth and I mean it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your frankness in this matter and your willingness to express your opinion.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can call me anytime, if you want me to come back again I will be glad to come back, anytime. If I am out of town I will have to wait to pick up my letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hope we won’t have to trouble you again and thank you very much for coming.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM S. BIGGIO
The testimony of William S. Biggio was taken at 5 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Would you stand, please, and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear in your testimony before this Commission that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BIGGIO. I will.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state your full name, and spell it, please?
Mr. BIGGIO. William S. Biggio, [spelling] B-i-g-g-i-o.
Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Dallas City Police Force?
Mr. BIGGIO. That’s right.
Mr. JENNER. Are you in any particular division, do you have a particular assignment?
Mr. BIGGIO. I am with the special service bureau, criminal intelligence section.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of the Warren Commission, with which you are familiar, and this item has come to my attention recently through Mr. Davis of the attorney general’s office of the Texas staff and while I appreciate the fact that at the moment it is third hand or hearsay, as we lawyers call it, I would just like to have your report on it--which we will seek to run down--as I understand Mr. Davis and the FBI are undertaking the investigation; is that right?
Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BIGGIO. I have since talked to them also.
Mr. DAVIS. Since we talked?
Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You appreciate the existence of the President’s Commission and what the President’s Commission is engaged in, in the investigating of the assassination of President Kennedy and many members of your force have been very helpful to us and have been appearing these last 2 weeks by considerable number. Tell us about this whole incident from the beginning--when it first came to your attention, who brought it to your attention and what developed thereafter?
Mr. BIGGIO. There was a friend of mine--she is a woman who I know through my wife. She formerly was employed at the same location that my wife is, and she called me at work following Ruby’s killing of Oswald. She said that a friend of hers had been into a restaurant in the downtown area and a mechanic had come in and had made mention of the fact that Oswald drove Ruby’s car for approximately a 2-week period that he knew of, that Oswald had brought the car there for repairs to his garage.
The friend did not know where the garage was, did not know the mechanic’s name. The woman who called me didn’t want to give her friend’s name and get his name involved if she could possibly help it.
Mr. JENNER. Who was it that called you?
Mr. BIGGIO. Is it necessary for me to give that name? I believe with the information that was given me, it will not be necessary.
Mr. JENNER. Has the information been furnished the FBI?
Mr. BIGGIO. No; it has not. I believe with the information we get to further on it will show that her name isn’t needed.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. BIGGIO. I don’t object to giving her name except that she asked me not to give it.
Mr. JENNER. All right; she didn’t want any publicity, is that it?
Mr. BIGGIO. No; she doesn’t want any publicity on it. I don’t know why people are so scared of things like this, but if they get into court or before a panel or anything like that--at any rate, her friend doesn’t want his name used either, but I talked to my lieutenant about it, Lieutenant Revill, and he suggested that we go ahead and write it up on the grounds that by searching through the material in Ruby’s apartment and also through the material that had been taken from his automobile, we could possibly find a garage where a mechanic had done some work on his car. We would be able to contact the mechanic in that way without involving the two people who had called the information in.
When we did get photostatic copies of the material that had been taken out of Ruby’s car and his apartment, we found no evidence of any garage work that had been done or any actual mechanical work that had been done on his car recently. So, I called my friend back and asked her again if she could contact the man who had given her the information and see if he would be willing to talk to us about it. She called him back and then she called me and she said she had made an error in saying it was in the downtown area, that the place was out on Lovers Lane, directly across from--I have the address in here----
Mr. JENNER. Is it 5060 W. Lovers Lane?
Mr. BIGGIO. Well; she didn’t have the address itself--it was directly across from the Jungle Hut which is in the 5000 block of Lovers Lane.
Mr. JENNER. Lovers Lane is a street name?
Mr. BIGGIO. Yes; Lovers Lane is a street. We sent an officer out there, Detective Hellinghousen, F. A.
Mr. JENNER. Francis A. Hellinghousen [spelling] H-e-l-l-i-n-g-h-o-u-s-e-n?
Mr. BIGGIO. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Of the Dallas City Police?
Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir. He went to that particular area--there are two cafes across the street there in the 5000 block from the particular location that the lady friend of mine said. One of them was the Cafe Coffee Shop, was the name of it--the Cafe Coffee Shop. It was closed up at that time. Now, this took place approximately 3 weeks after the shooting. It was closed--ordinarily through our bureau we can find out who the owner was of such a place, because we keep the records of everyone through the beer licenses which we have to keep in our particular bureau, but this particular place did not have a beer license. It did not deal in beer.
It had been closed--we couldn’t find out who the owner was, so I sent Officer Hellinghousen and requested him to go by and talk to the woman who had originally given me that information and see if she would be willing to give him the same thing--the man’s name. Officer Hellinghousen went by and talked to her and she gave him the man’s name and at that particular time the man was attending a real estate convention which was here and being held here in Dallas and the word was sent to him from the company that he works for, the Bill Hardy Real Estate Co.--word was sent to the man, his name was Chesher [spelling] C-h-e-s-h-e-r--Bill was his first name. I believe it is correct--William R. He lives on Lupton Street.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?
Mr. BIGGIO. No, sir. I tried to contact Hellinghousen today. Mr. Davis had gone up to talk to Captain Gannaway in regard to that report. I had understood that Hellinghousen had written a report from what he had learned from Mr. Chesher and I tried to contact him and could not, after Captain Gannaway had called me, so I went out to the Bill Hardy Real Estate Co. where Chesher works, and I talked to the manager of that company who is Wey, Jr. The location of the real estate company is 6340 E. Mockingbird Lane. Mr. Wey informed us that Bill Chesher died night before last of a heart attack in the hospital here. We then asked him if he had talked to Chesher any about hearing this mechanic talking in the cafe and he said, “No, he had heard some talk of it, though and he knew one man who had talked to him” and he called in another employee of the company, Mr. John P. [spelling] S-c-h-n-i-t-z-i-u-s, who is also an employee of the Bill Hardy Real Estate Co. and he told us that Chesher told him the same thing, that the mechanic had came in and sat by him and it was--that it took place at approximately 10 o’clock at night. He was leaving town--he was going out of town. He stopped there to get coffee and a sandwich and the man came in while he was there and he had given no description of the mechanic other than that he was short and was dressed in work clothes and that the clothes were greasy and that’s the information that he had, and I believe the man was telling the truth when he said he was a mechanic and that’s as far as we have been able to go.
Mr. JENNER. What is it that the mechanic is alleged to have said?
Mr. BIGGIO. He said that Oswald had been driving Ruby’s car for approximately 2 weeks and that he had brought the car into his garage for repairs, but he did not mention the name of the garage or the type of repairs, the type of automobile or anything else.
Now, we, of course--just as soon as that came through, there were checks made on the repairs on Ruby’s automobile. His automobile was parked regularly, just a short distance up from the Carousel Club at the old Adolphus Hotel parking garage and also mechanical work had been done at that location, and the only other place we can find out where it had been to any type of garage at all was from receipts in his car and they were apparently for gas and oil and such things as that--no mechanical work whatsoever, so we didn’t put much stock in the report, since it was third hand to start off with.
Also, we made an error ourselves--Hellinghousen thought when we brought that information back about Chesher that I would write up the report and I thought he was preparing the report, since he was the one who actually contacted the man and no report was made, but I’m sure the report went to the FBI, but there is no name in the original report connecting anybody with it and there was nothing in that that we could check on except the way we thought was through the mechanical repair bills and they would possibly be in the car.
Mr. JENNER. You have told me all the incidents from the beginning to the present time?
Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what you and your fellow officers have done with respect to running this down?
Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir. I might add that the gentlemen out at Bill Hardy’s Real Estate Co. were very cooperative and they said they would be willing to talk to any one of you. This lady who called me was very worried about being called herself or about Mr. Chesher possibly being called and him not liking it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the lady who reported it to you, she was not present--it had been a report to her?
Mr. BIGGIO. She was not present. That’s the reason I say it was third-hand information. It was written up in the report that way, although I considered her reliable. The information was third-hand and there is no way of actually telling. We have to evaluate all the information that comes through and that generally is the reason we make followup investigation prior to turning in a report. In this particular case we were to turn in our information right on through and let the FBI do it; but as you can see, the FBI would have nothing to go on.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they have got what you reported and we’ll see what they turn up.
Mr. BIGGIO. Well, after Mr. Davis, I believe you called the FBI this evening, after you called them, they called me then and I gave them the exact date of the report and what other information we found out and they are going to run it on that.
Mr. JENNER. But you have given me now all the information you gave them?
Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir; and from my own viewpoint--this is just my personal viewpoint--I don’t think there’s much to it. I think it’s just some man in a place talking. I think Mr. Chesher was telling the truth, but I don’t think the man who said he was a mechanic was. There is no way we have been able to verify that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Officer Biggio, we very much appreciate your coming in and part of our work is running down these rumors.
Mr. BIGGIO. I know--I don’t like to turn in a report like that to start off with.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate it very much and thanks for coming.
Mr. BIGGIO. Does that take care of me not giving out the lady’s name again?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that’s perfectly all right. We don’t want to probe into that. You have a right to read your deposition here and sign it if you want or you can waive that.
Mr. BIGGIO. I know exactly what I’ve said and I’m sure she has taken down the right thing. I have said nothing except the events that happened. I’m afraid there is nothing that will be of any help anyway.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GLEN D. KING
The testimony of Capt. Glen D. King was taken at 11:20 a.m., on May 28, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Glen D. King.
Captain King, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. King, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the surrounding circumstances, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Captain King, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a general request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, addressed to your chief, Mr. Curry, asking that you appear before it. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but such rules also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he so wishes. Now, I will ask you to state whether or not you are willing to waive the 3-day notice.
Captain KING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain KING. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?
Captain KING. Glen D. King.
Mr. HUBERT. And your age?
Captain KING. I am 39.
Mr. HUBERT. Your address?
Captain KING. I live at 519 Goldwood, Dallas 32, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Captain KING. Police officer with the city of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so employed?
Captain KING. I was first employed on August 2, 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. And have you been with the police department continuously since then?
Captain KING. No; I have not. I left the department in, I think it was 1950, and was gone approximately 11 months, and returned in 1951; and I have been with the department continuously since that date.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a resignation from the department?
Captain KING. It was a resignation from the department and I entered into private business.
Mr. HUBERT. It was voluntary?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you start at the bottom, as it were?
Captain KING. Yes; as a patrolman.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the report of the proceedings at which you made a speech, I think, in Washington, there was a description of you and your career given and I am going to read it into the record here and ask you if it is correct.
You were introduced as follows: That you are an administrative assistant to Chief Curry and that you are a former newspaperman, that you were a police reporter on the Dallas Morning News when you joined the police department in 1948; that you have served in every division of the department until you have risen to the position you now hold; that you had studied journalism in college at the University of Texas and SMU; that you have attended a number of police institutes and lectured at some of them; that you have written in the field of political science and that you are the author of two books and numerous magazine articles; is that all correct, sir?
Captain KING. Sir, this is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific assignment on November 22 and for some months or weeks or whatever it was prior to that date, the year being 1963?
Captain KING. As the administrative assistant to the chief, one of my primary responsibilities is press relations and public relations also. On the date of November 22 I was asked to remain in the administrative offices while other members of the administrative staff were going to be absent on their assignments, and I was asked to stay in the administrative offices.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to describe for the record just under normal circumstances just what the functions and duties and responsibilities of your position are.
Captain KING. There are, of course, a lot of rather dissimilar or separated functions of the office.
Mr. HUBERT. I am particularly interested in the ones dealing with press relations and public relations.
Captain KING. As I say, the office--our office is the unit of the department that is charged with the efforts of the department for public relations and it is the office to which the local newsmen know they can come to receive any assistance that they need in their work. It is one in which they can register complaints against the department and procedures of the department and the treatment that they receive, or it is one to which they can come to secure information on things they are investigating.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there is a setup--a central spot--where every newsman can get the information and information will be gotten for him?
Captain KING. This is true.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s your office and you are the head of that?
Captain KING. That’s true; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to November 22, were any standard operating procedures set up for relationships with the press?
Captain KING. Yes; we had a general order in the department which in very brief and very general terms set forth a policy of the department so far as their relations with the press was concerned. We had published prior to that time a memorandum from the chief setting forth what the policy of the department would be. Briefly stated, it was the policy that we would render any possible assistance to the press except that assistance which would seriously interfere with any investigation that we had underway. This policy made it the responsibility of each officer of the department to do this.
My office is the press relations office, but my office is not the only place in the department where a newsman could get information. It was the responsibility of each member of the department to furnish to the press information on incidents in which they, themselves, were involved, except on matters which involved departmental personnel policies of the department, or, as I said, unless it would obviously interfere with an investigation underway.
Mr. HUBERT. In the latter case, if it would interfere with an investigation underway, what was the policy then?
Captain KING. If it would interfere, then it was the policy that the information would be withheld.
Mr. HUBERT. And the press then would simply not be told or be sent away, as it were?
Captain KING. It would be withheld from the press; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say that that was the general policy, not merely with respect to your relations with the press, but with every police officer’s relations with the press?
Captain KING. That’s correct; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your duty to enforce that policy in the event you saw it was being disrupted; that is to say, in the event you observed that press relationship was interfering with an investigation?
Captain KING. It would be--probably; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have any general system of registration of the press--I’m not speaking now of November 22--but of normal conditions whereby identification cards and so forth would be issued?
Captain KING. Yes, sir; we have.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Captain KING. We have an identification card that we have prepared, the department prepared, and newsmen who are employees of regular news gathering agencies in town, upon identification as such or request of their employer actually, are furnished with the press identification.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be given mostly to local press people, would it not?
Captain KING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the occasion of the President’s visit, is it fair to state that more outside newsmen sought this accreditation or identification card?
Captain KING. Some did seek it--yes. Very little of it actually was done. We received a call from--at least these are the only ones that I can recall, Mr. Hubert, that we gave the identification to--out-of-State or newsmen who did not normally work here--we received a call from channel 4, KRLD-TV and they said they had some people in here from out of the city, of which I recall there were eight of these. They were identified to us by Eddie Barker who is the news director of KRLD, and they were furnished press cards. These are the only ones I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the assassination?
Captain KING. No, this was subsequent to the assassination. These are the only ones that I can recall that were given for newsmen who came into town to cover this.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought now that the newsmen who were not local, who were not known to you and who did not have individual identification cards should have not been admitted or spoken to unless they had obtained clearance?
Captain KING. I don’t think it would have been possible from a practical point of view--I don’t think it could have been done.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why?
Captain KING. “Why” has to include the atmosphere that existed over there, the tremendous pressures that existed, the fact that telephones were ringing constantly, that there were droves of people in there; it would also have to include the fact that the method by which you positively identify someone--it doesn’t mean--it’s not easy. If someone comes into us with a letter from the New York Times on their letterhead stating that this man is an employee of the New York Times, “Will you please furnish him with identification?”, we haven’t any way of knowing that actually this letter did come from the New York Times and that it was not on a forged or stolen letterhead.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would not issue a card to such an individual without a checkout, as it were?
Captain KING. That’s true.
Mr. HUBERT. And your thought was that checkouts were just simply impossible?
Captain KING. They were.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any attempt made to set up a system whereby only positively identified news people would be admitted to the areas near Oswald?
Captain KING. I’m not sure I understand your question, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. After the death of the President, when you say that this atmosphere and this condition developed with the press where there were mobs of people and so forth, was there any effort made by anyone to clear out the place, as it were, and then readmit only those who were known to be accredited or definitely identified?
Captain KING. There were officers assigned to the area there--primarily the third floor where the homicide office is located and where most of the newsmen were, and they did screen the newsmen and other people who came in there. I was not the person who assigned them out there and I don’t actually know what instructions they were given and I don’t know actually the procedures by which they screened them. I was inside of my office most of the time with telephones ringing.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it normally have been your duty to screen them or to see that they had identification?
Captain KING. No, actually it wouldn’t--I think normally it would be the duty of the officer who was working the incident to check the identification.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone suggested that something should be done to correct the conditions which you have described?
Captain KING. I understand that Chief Batchelor on his arrival at the station ordered some more men assigned up there and tightened up to a certain extent the security that was up there, but I was not present when this was done.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone suggested that the whole place be cleared out completely and then readmit only those definitely accredited individuals?
Captain KING. I don’t know of anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who suggested that at all?
Captain KING. I don’t recall anyone having suggested that--no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you are telling me that the presence of the press and under the conditions that they were present would be considered by you at least as a serious disruption of the normal methods of interrogation of a prisoner?
Captain KING. I would say that nothing really that was going on there at that time was normal.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion that the presence of the press as they were, particularly on the third floor, when Captain Fritz was interrogating Oswald did interfere with the investigation?
Captain KING. I think it must have--yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any examples of how it did?
Captain KING. Well, the hallways were full--actually with men and officers. I was out on occasion in the hallway and officers tried to keep an aisle or pathway cleared in the hall so people who had business in the other bureaus on that end of the floor and people who were working out of the homicide and robbery bureau could get in and out, and this was a constant battle because of the number of newsmen who were there. They would move back into the aisleway that had been cleared. They interfered with the movement of people who had to be there.
The door from the elevator, the jail elevator--the ones used for the transportation of prisoners--is south of the doorway of the homicide and robbery bureau where the interrogations were conducted, and whenever Oswald was brought down from the jail or taken back from homicide and robbery to the jail, he had to pass through this area. There was noise out there--a considerable amount of noise out there, and I think this must have been a disquieting thing.
Mr. HUBERT. And you mentioned that your general policy about the cooperation of the press had an exception, and that is, when it would interfere with an investigation, and you have, I think, demonstrated now that in your opinion there was interference with the investigation?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any effort made by anyone to invoke the exception to the general rule?
Captain KING. I think no effort was made. I think that the decision was made without ever having been stated, actually, that this was certainly not a normal circumstance; that the newsmen should be allowed to remain in there.
The news cameramen first arrived--I don’t recall the time it was--it was a short time after the death of the President or the shooting, and Chief Lunday, as I recall, is our traffic division chief. He was the only chief officer in the department who had returned. We checked--they wanted to bring their cameras up to the third floor, and we checked with Chief Lunday to see if it was permissible, and I was told it would be.
Mr. HUBERT. You did that yourself?
Captain KING. Yes. I am thinking it was Chief Lunday--it was either Chief Lunday or Chief Lumpkin, and did receive permission for them to bring their cables through the windows. Of course, the number of newsmen in the beginning was less than it later became, and more and more came in.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you checked the matter with Chief Lunday or perhaps it was Lumpkin, your thought was that at that time the presence of the press would not constitute interference?
Captain KING. We didn’t--I didn’t have any idea at that time that we would have the number that we had.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it occur to you at any later time that the number had increased to the point that something ought to be done about it?
Captain KING. The obvious answer is “yes”, but it didn’t actually. The newsmen out there, I guess you become accustomed to them out there, or accustomed to the idea of them being out there, once you have decided that they are going to be permitted to be there, and it was the obvious policy of the department at that time that they would be permitted to be there and so far as my ever mentioning to anyone else or recommending to anyone else or suggesting to anyone else that they should be removed--I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else suggest that the situation was getting out of hand, if it was, in fact, sir?
Captain KING. I don’t recall having done so.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, a large part of that was due, I take it, to the fact that Oswald was being interrogated on the third floor in Captain Fritz’ office, which is the normal place where a person charged with murder would be interrogated?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But, do you know if anyone thought of removing Oswald to another place and thus avoid the press in the room?
Captain KING. That, I do not know, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not heard that discussed?
Captain KING. I don’t recall having heard it discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that that might be one way to get around this situation which you found?
Captain KING. No; actually it did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there other places available so it could actually have been done?
Captain KING. I am sure that some place could have been found--I don’t know whether a place could have been found that would have solved more problems than it raised or not--I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, in what way?
Captain KING. Well, because this is the normal--this is the place where these homicide officers are assigned. This is the place where their equipment is, this is the place where they normally work and this is something that had not even occurred to me--moving him to some other location and moving the interrogation or the investigation of him to some other place--this is something again in which I was not involved in and in which I was not in.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I have read the transcript of the speech that you made before the American Society of Newspaper Editors in Washington, which I will introduce into this deposition in a little while.
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from it that to a considerable extent the police department was influenced to tolerate this condition to a large extent by the fact that this was an extraordinary case and that any effort to run the press away might be misconstrued in some manner.
Captain KING. I think that it very definitely might have. I think probably that these are things that were put into words after the conditions returned more to normal over there. They were not things that were actually said. We didn’t sit down, frankly, we didn’t really have much time to sit down to do anything, but we didn’t just sit down and say, “We are going to let the press remain here for this reason, for this reason, or for this reason,” even if they might have been the reasons that we did in fact.
Mr. HUBERT. There were no staff meetings or anything of that sort to consider and determine that problem--the problems?
Captain KING. No; there were meetings of the administrators of the departments, certainly, but these were informal meetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, was this problem discussed at any of those meetings, and by “this problem,” I mean the problem of the press conditions?
Captain KING. To my knowledge--that I remember--no; it probably was--it would almost have had to have been mentioned over there about the fact that there were these large number of newsmen there, but any discussion of their removal or any consideration really, of their removal, I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that you mentioned in your speech also that the press were murmuring, I think, or voicing in some ways some possibly discrediting remarks as to the Dallas Police Department, and that that factor influenced somewhat the conditions.
Captain KING. It was my understanding that one of the newsmen--I heard this, but I don’t know who he was--and I, of my own knowledge, don’t know that this actually occurred, but that one of them had obtained a picture of Oswald, that he had a picture of Oswald, and he held it up before the cameras and said, “This is what the man who assassinated or who shot President Kennedy looks like or at least this is what he did look like.” He says, “He has been in the custody of the police department for an hour and I don’t know what he looks like now.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was heard by you and others----
Captain KING. This was not heard by me. I said I was told this--I did not hear it--I was not a witness to it.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were told that this occurred shortly after, in fact, it had occurred or was supposed to have occurred?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you heard it on the 22d of November?
Captain KING. I don’t remember whether it was on the 22d or the 23d--I don’t remember when I heard it.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was before Oswald was shot?
Captain KING. I believe that’s correct--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that on the night of the 22d when Oswald was brought to the assembly room at which he was displayed, as it were, to the press?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present at that time?
Captain KING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how that occasion came about, what brought about this showing of Oswald to the press in the assembly room?
Captain KING. Actually, I was not a part of the discussions to bring him down there, nor a part of the decision to bring him down there and I don’t know. I was told--I was directed to go to the assembly room and I don’t remember exactly what time it was--it was a short time before he was brought down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who directed you?
Captain KING. Chief Curry, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what the purpose was?
Captain KING. He said that Oswald was going to be brought down to the assembly room and the newsmen were going to be down there and he wanted a policeman down there to maintain order.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he consult with you as to whether or not this was the proper thing to do?
Captain KING. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been normal for him to consult with you in your position as public relations officer?
Captain KING. Probably not--no.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not offer any objection to this proposal?
Captain KING. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone else did?
Captain KING. No, sir; I don’t--I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if there had been any release made by anyone in the police department to the press that Oswald had not confessed?
Captain KING. No, I don’t. I don’t know whether there was or not--that he had not confessed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Captain KING. I think it probably was--I think it was mentioned that there had not been a statement--I think it was mentioned too, that he denied knowledge of the murder, so I’m sure the statement along this line was made to the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps by inference and implication you have already answered the following question but I want to ask it now--is it your thought that in this particular case more information was given to the press and more latitude was given than would normally be given in a murder case which did not involve the President of the United States?
Captain KING. Probably--probably more, certainly there were more people there that were more involved in it than there would have been, I think, under any other circumstances.
Mr. HUBERT. I would think, then, that this would be considered to be a wholly abnormal situation, that is to say, physical conditions and the mass of people--the importance of the case and so forth?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship between the police department and the district attorney’s office in handling the press, was there any coordination of effort?
Captain KING. Mr. Wade was at the police department most of the time, or quite a lot of the time. I think Mr. Alexander was there some. There was discussion made of what would be released to the press whether there was any discussion with him on the actual physical handling of the press and permission for them to be there or not, I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Who discussed with Mr. Wade or any other member of the district attorney’s office, what would be released to the press?
Captain KING. I did on one occasion, or at least I was present on one occasion when a discussion was had with Mr. Wade, and this was the only occasion that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us about it, please, sir?
Captain KING. I think it was--I’m not sure which night it was, whether it was on Saturday night or on Sunday night--I don’t remember whether it was before or after Oswald was killed--Chief Curry was not there, but he had said to the press in my presence, and said to me that there were elements of evidence that he was not going to comment on, and he told me that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had requested that we not comment on some of the evidence and that it was not his intention to do so.
In Chief Curry’s absence there was a meeting in the chief’s office at which I was present, Captain Fritz was there and Chief Stevenson was there and I think Chief Lumpkin was there and Chief Batchelor was there, and there was a discussion with Mr. Wade on the release of certain information, and I don’t exactly remember what the evidence was, but there was some evidence that Mr. Wade wanted to release to the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in relation to the prosecution of Oswald or the prosecution of Ruby?
Captain KING. I don’t know whether--I don’t recall whether it was in relation to the prosecution of anyone or not, or whether it was just evidence--general evidence in the case. I don’t remember what the item of the evidence was.
Mr. HUBERT. I asked that question in order to assist in fixing the date.
Captain KING. The date--yes; I know, but I do recall that we opposed the release of the evidence or a statement on the evidence and that Mr. Wade then sometime thereafter appeared before the newsmen and made some comment regarding the evidence.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, it was at night, you say?
Captain KING. It was at night--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It could have been either the night of the 23d or the night of the 24th?
Captain KING. It could have been and I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been the night of the 22d, too?
Captain KING. I don’t think it was, because I think Chief Curry was at the police station until late on the night of the 22d. I’m thinking it was the night of the 24th, which was Sunday night, wasn’t it?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Captain KING. I’m thinking it was that night, because I know he was not there and I think he was there until the small hours of the morning on actually both Friday and Saturday, and I think that this was Sunday night, but I can’t say definitely that it was.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case it was the police department’s opinion that the evidence should not be released?
Captain KING. It was the opinion of those members who were there that it should not be released--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that prevailed?
Captain KING. So far as we were concerned in our release of it--so far as that was concerned--yes, sir; but the district attorney did make some comment to the press regarding it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was over your objection?
Captain KING. Well, actually, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way: You had decided not to do it?
Captain KING. That’s correct--we did not do it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you expressed your view to him that it should not be done?
Captain KING. We expressed to him the statement of the chief that the department was not going to do it. I think the chief had indicated to the FBI we would not, or at least, this was what he told us at any rate.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any studies have been made or policies changed since this incident in the police department with reference to relations with the press?
Captain KING. There has not been any change in our written policy, only I know the chief has said--I heard him say on more than one occasion that if we were faced with the same circumstances again, he would certainly restrict the presence of the newsmen there and we would act differently from the manner in which we did this time, but so far as any change having been made in the written policy of the department, I don’t know anything about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it is always easier in retrospect to know what is the best thing to do, but part of a study after all is to see what is the best thing to do.
Captain KING. Oh, yes; I think you could probably get an excellent argument with a lot of points on both sides right now on a discussion of what the proper treatment of the newsmen would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Given this same situation?
Captain KING. Given this same situation--yes; with the benefit of hindsight and with the benefit of the experience you had--I think you could raise many points--good points on both sides.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have handed you previously two statements of interviews with you by the FBI. I am marking a statement which is dated January 25, 1964, by putting in the right margin the following: “May 28, 1964, Dallas, Tex., Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Capt. Glen D. King, Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,” and then my signature, and I ask you if you have read that report of the interview of you by FBI Agents Clements and Sayres, and if you consider that to be a correct and proper report of the interview?
Captain KING. Yes; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I have also marked for identification an earlier interview of you by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 9 and December 10, 1963, and for the purpose of identification, I have marked that document as follows: “May 28, 1964, Dallas, Tex., Exhibit No. 2, deposition of Capt. Glen D. King,” and I have signed my name, and since it consists of 2 pages, I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I think you have read that document, and I ask you if it is a correct and fair statement of your interview with FBI Agent Robertson?
Captain KING. I think there is nothing in that that is incorrect. I believe I told Agent Robertson at that time that I had in my memory seen Jack Ruby one time prior. I had known him since 1955 or 1956, I believe, and I think my statement to him was that I had first met him at that time when I was in the vice squad, and I had seen him one time since then and I had heard the name.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see him at any time in the Dallas Police Department building from November 22 until the shooting?
Captain KING. Not until the shooting--no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, there is a third document which is a letter dated December 2, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry and apparently the original was signed by you, and I have marked it for identification as follows: to wit: “Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, deposition of Capt. Glen D. King,” and I have signed my name under that, all of which appears in the right hand margin of the first page, and since that document contains 2 pages, I have put my initials at the bottom on the right hand corner of the first page, and I ask you if that is a correct statement of the facts as you saw them and as you reported them?
Captain KING. Yes; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the letter addressed to Chief Curry, dated December 2, which I have just marked for identification as Exhibit No. 3, with reference to the second paragraph, I invite your attention to this paragraph and ask you if you know why the press had congregated in the basement?
Captain KING. Yes; sir. On the evening of November 23, I don’t recall the time, but on the evening of November 23, Chief Curry had appeared before the newsmen and had told the newsmen--they had asked him something about--I think--if they might be able to leave and get something to eat or get some rest and not miss anything that was there, and Chief Curry had told them that the transfer would not be made prior to 10 o’clock the next morning--that was Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. But was any announcement made as to what route would be used to take him out of the building?
Captain KING. Not to my knowledge--no.
Mr. HUBERT. In fact, there were several other routes by which he could be taken?
Captain KING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard whether anyone told them that the route would be via the basement?
Captain KING. I don’t know whether anyone--I don’t recall whether anyone did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they all assembled there instead of in some other spot?
Captain KING. No--in my thinking on it; and I don’t even know why I thought it was going to be from the basement, but this was the only thing that had occurred to me. There might have been something that I heard and don’t recall, but my impression was that it was going to be from the basement and out, and maybe because this is our normal method of transfer, our normal way we transfer. We bring them down into the jail office and out through the jail office and this might be why I was thinking this about it, but this was the way I thought about it.
Mr. HUBERT. In this second paragraph of Exhibit No. 3 you say you went to the basement because of the number of newsmen who were assembled there. Do you mean by that that that was a matter of some concern to you?
Captain KING. Actually no--not a matter particularly of concern--there was not anything happening there that I thought was unusual or anything that I was particularly concerned about. There were more newsmen going down in there than there were up on the third floor and I went down there actually to be available more than anything else.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the way that the letter reads--the way that sentence reads--the fact that newsmen were there was what motivated you to go there?
Captain KING. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Because otherwise you had no connection with the transfer?
Captain KING. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you thought it was your duty to be there since you were the press man?
Captain KING. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And where the press was, you would be?
Captain KING. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice in the fourth paragraph you state that you talked briefly with Captain Jones, Captain Talbert, and Captain Arnett--do you recall the nature of the conversation?
Captain KING. I don’t recall what was said only we spoke briefly, and I don’t remember actually what any of us said. I remembered having seen them down there. I don’t know whether it was anything more than a greeting or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the conditions you have described concerning the press, that is to say, the number of them, the noise, the commotion, the cameras and so forth, continued to be as bad after Oswald was shot, as those conditions had been prior to the shooting? You see, heretofore, you have described the conditions really on the 22d and the 23d.
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And for the morning of the 24th. Then came the shooting of Oswald, and what would you have to say about the conditions with relation to the press after that incident as a comparison?
Captain KING. I don’t recall any noticeable change.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby was not ever on the third floor, as I recall it, was he?
Captain KING. I don’t know--I don’t remember ever having seen him on the third floor--I don’t know whether he was there or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I have also shown you previously what appears to be a galley proof of the purported publication of a speech made by you before the meeting of the American Society of Newspaper Editors and I have marked this document for identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, deposition of Capt. Glen D. King,” and I have signed my name in the right-hand margin.
The pages that I have shown you are marked with blue ink--this is page 7 and it is on that page that I have marked the identification data which I have just dictated.
On page 8, marked in blue ink, I have put my name in the bottom right-hand corner, the same with page 9, and the same with page 10, and the same with page 11, where your speech ends at the top of page 11, and also I have marked my name on the bottom of page 17, because there is a comment by you there on that page, and the same with pages 18, 19, and 20.
Now, I think you have read this galley proof?
Captain KING. I have--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Addressing ourselves now to pages 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11, which is the body of your speech, would you say that this is a correct report of what you said?
Captain KING. I’m sure it is--yes--as I said, I did not read this. I had a prepared text there that I actually didn’t particularly follow. I spoke more extemporaneously then, and I can’t remember exactly my wordage on it, but there is nothing in there I think that I did not say. There is nothing incorrect there.
Mr. HUBERT. Turning to page 17, it appears that a Mr. Black asked you to comment on a point, and there is printed on this galley proof on page 17 what purports to be your comment, and I think that you told me that you wanted to make some correction as to that comment?
Captain KING. Only in one word only. My answer as listed on this----
Mr. HUBERT. On page 17?
Captain KING. On page 17--it is written here, “I think it probably would be improper for me to comment on this even before the other members of the panel,” and I think what I said there, and certainly what I would have intended to say, is, “I think it probable that it probably would be improper for me to comment on this even more than the other members of the panel.”
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that nobody should comment on it, and you least of all?
Captain KING. Me least of all--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On other pages there are comments that appeared by you and I understand from what you tell me that these--this galley proof fairly represents what is correct as to what you said, as far as you can remember?
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like the record to show that this galley proof shows some corrections made apparently by some editorial process, and at other places there are some apparent typewriter corrections and some words changed or added by pen and ink and that these various changes and comments were not made by me or by Captain King but are in the same condition as were received by me from the American Association of Newspaper Editors in this way, that by letter dated May 26, 1964. Mr. Gene Giancarlo, G-i-a-n-c-a-r-l-o [spelling], addressed a letter to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, U.S. attorney, enclosing this galley proof, and that Mr. Sanders handed this to me this morning.
Captain KING. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All of these comments being relative to Exhibit No. 4. Captain King, is there anything you would like to add to what has been said?
Captain KING. I think not.
Mr. HUBERT. Immediately prior to the beginning of this deposition, I had a short conversation with you in which I showed you the various documents that were introduced. The rules of the Commission require that I now ask you if there was any discussion between us concerning those documents or anything else that is not covered in the deposition?
Captain KING. I recall nothing that was said before that was not covered after the deposition was begun.
Mr. HUBERT. And there is nothing inconsistent between what we spoke of before and what was covered in the deposition?
Captain KING. No inconsistencies.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Captain.
Captain KING. Thank you. This is not of any particular value--this that I have here--but this is what I had prepared.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this in the record, Captain, that you have referred to a prepared speech that you went to the American Society of Newspapers conference with, as to what you have already testified, that you used this as a basis but actually spoke largely extemporaneously.
Captain KING. That’s correct, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You have also indicated to me that I may introduce this prepared copy of the text for whatever it is worth?
Captain KING. Yes; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And I will do that and mark it for identification as follows, to wit: I am placing in the right-hand margin the words, “Dallas, Texas, the date May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 5, deposition of Capt. Glen D. King,” and I am signing my name below that and I am initialing the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth, the seventh and the eighth pages by placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner.
I have not read this Exhibit No. 5--do you know if there is anything in it that was omitted from the speech?
Captain KING. Not from the speech proper. Actually, I think there are no inconsistencies between this and the speech. There might have been some things said in the prepared text that I didn’t say there, and I think there was, or vice versa, but I think there are no inconsistencies.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the contents of Exhibit No. 5, whether or not spoken by you at the time you made your speech, represents your views in any case?
Captain KING. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all. Thank you very much, Captain, and we appreciate it.
Captain KING. Thank you--I appreciate this opportunity to speak with you.
TESTIMONY OF C. RAY HALL
The testimony of C. Ray Hall was taken at 2 p.m., on May 28, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Byran and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. C. Ray Hall.
Mr. Hall, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by President Johnson, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformity with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Hall, our inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, the interviews of Ruby, and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Hall, you appear today, I think, by virtue of a request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission to Mr. Hoover, and I suppose through Mr. Shanklin that you appear before me to take a deposition.
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, all witnesses are entitled to 3 days’ written notice prior to the taking of their deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so, and I ask you now--do you desire to waive that 3-day written notice?
Mr. HALL. I will consent to waive the 3-day written notice for appearance before the Commission’s representative.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise, please, so that I may administer the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HALL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?
Mr. HALL. C. Ray Hall.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Hall?
Mr. HALL. 45.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mr. HALL. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. HALL. I am a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. HALL. Over 21 years.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been stationed in the Dallas office area?
Mr. HALL. Almost 8 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I ask you your house residence?
Mr. HALL. I live at 6542 Ellsworth in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall, were you in Dallas on the 24th of November 1963?
Mr. HALL. I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion on that date to interview or speak to a man by the name of Jack Ruby?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that date?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the circumstances under which you did talk to him? That is to say, how you were assigned the place, time, and so forth?
Mr. HALL. I was in the office of the chief of police in Dallas, Tex., at approximately 12:35 p.m. on November 24, 1963, when I received a telephone call from the special agent in charge of the FBI in Dallas, Tex., Mr. J. Gordon Shanklin, who instructed me to interview Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to secure the permission of the chief to do so, just tell us what happened after that?
Mr. HALL. I immediately contacted the chief of police, Jesse Curry, and advised him that I would like to interview Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in the same building at the time--you were in his office, the chief of police’s office?
Mr. HALL. I was in his office at the time I received the telephone call.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was in there too?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you were able to talk to him immediately?
Mr. HALL. Yes; well, actually, I took the phone call outside of his office, just outside of his office. I went into his office and explained to him that I would like to talk to Jack Ruby. Chief Curry stepped outside his office where a uniformed officer was and instructed this officer to take me immediately to where Jack Ruby was, and instructed the officers there on duty that I was to interview Jack Ruby immediately.
Mr. HUBERT. And where was Jack Ruby, then, when you first saw him?
Mr. HALL. Jack Ruby was in a cell in the city jail at Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he interviewed in that cell or elsewhere?
Mr. HALL. He was in a cell block area, by that I mean, there was an outer door and then a series of cells, with a hallway in between and he was the only occupant in that cell block area, the only prisoner being held in that area. There was a table and some chairs in the space between the front of the cells.
Mr. HUBERT. In the hallways?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; Ruby came outside to the table and we sat at the table during the time I interviewed him.
Mr. HUBERT. And your interview must have begun, then, about 5 minutes later, you suppose?
Mr. HALL. My interview with Jack Ruby commenced at 12:40 p.m. on November 24, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know who else was present at the time you first went in?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. HALL. Detective T. D. McMillon [spelling] M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n, of the auto theft bureau was seated in front of the cell where Ruby was sitting at the time I walked in. Just a few minutes later another detective named B. S. Clardy [spelling] C-l-a-r-d-y, from the auto theft bureau of the Dallas Police Department came in. A uniformed officer, K. H. Haake [spelling] H-a-a-k-e, Badge No. 1107, was on guard duty at the outer door of the cell block.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did those three persons you have mentioned remain within the sight and hearing of your interviewing of Jack Ruby throughout the whole time, from the beginning to the end?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, maybe we would be better to get the change of personnel first before we get into the statement. Could you clarify that--for instance--if McMillon left and someone else took his place and Clardy left, if you have a notation of that it will be helpful.
Mr. HALL. Officer Haake was some distance away at the outer door. He was present there but I doubt seriously if he heard the complete interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he inside or outside the outer door?
Mr. HALL. He was outside.
Mr. HUBERT. Outside the outer door?
Mr. HALL. Yes; Detectives McMillon and Clardy were present up until 3:15 p.m. when Jack Ruby was taken to the office of Capt. Will Fritz, the homicide and robbery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. After Ruby came back upstairs to the jail from the interview with Captain Fritz, apparently Detectives McMillon and Clardy had gone off duty and from that time on I was alone with Ruby in that cell block area interviewing him.
Mr. HUBERT. There was, then, sort of an interruption of your interviewing?
Mr. HALL. Yes; there were interruptions.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interruption take, so that we might, for instance, fix the time when the second part of this began, if you are able to help us on that?
Mr. HALL. There was more than one interruption, yes, sir; and I first entered the cell where Ruby was confined at 12:40 p.m. on November 24, 1963. Ruby conferred with Attorney Tom Howard from 1:58 p.m. to 2:02 p.m. He was then examined by Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf (spelling) B-i-e-b-e-r-d-o-r-f, at 2:06 p.m. and I interviewed Ruby again from 2:24 p.m. until 3:15 p.m. I then returned to interviewing Jack Ruby from 4:30 until 5:30 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. And at 5:30 p.m. your interviewing was over with?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And, as I understand it, then McMillon and Clardy were there from the time you began at 12:40 until the time you first stopped, that is, at 2:24, roughly?
Mr. HALL. McMillon and Clardy were actually with me from 12:40 until 3:15, because at the time Ruby was taken down to another floor to talk with his attorney and be examined by the doctor, McMillon, Clardy and I all went to the floor where he was taken, so we were all together all during that time from 12:40 p.m. until 3:15 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you reinterviewed him for another hour, from 4:30 to 5:30?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, from 3:15 to 4:30 he was being interviewed by Captain Fritz?
Mr. HALL. He was interviewed by Captain Fritz and then he was arraigned before Justice of the Peace Pierce McBride on a charge of shooting and killing Lee Harvey Oswald. Then he was returned to the fifth floor of the jail where he was searched by the jailers and given a white shirt and trousers as jail clothing and then returned to his cell. That is what occurred between 3:15 p.m. and 4:30 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present during that period, 3:15 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were with Ruby all the way through?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I was with Ruby from 12:40 p.m. until 5:30 p.m. I did not participate in the interview by Captain Fritz, nor did I participate in any search of Ruby’s things, but I was present.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were present?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there, you found McMillon and Clardy?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service was not there?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Dean was not there, I believe, of the Dallas Police Department--P. T. Dean--only the two of them?
Mr. HALL. Those two officers were the only ones present, and Officer Haake was at an outer door. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service was in Captain Fritz’ office during the time that Ruby was being interviewed down there.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was not present when you interviewed him?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this general question: first of all, did you or anyone in your presence, threaten Jack Ruby, offer him any promises of help, take any action or do anything to affect the voluntary nature of what he said?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion that what Jack Ruby told you was completely voluntary?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. At 12:45 p.m. on November 24 I advised Jack Ruby at the beginning of the interview that he was not required to make any statement, that he had a right to talk with an attorney before making any statement and that any statements he made could be used against him in a court of law.
Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated he understood what that meant?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask for any attorney?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did Mr. Howard get into the matter; do you know?
Mr. HALL. I was interviewing Jack Ruby when one of the jailers, a uniformed officer that I did not know, came in and said that an attorney was downstairs and wanted to talk with Jack Ruby. I told him that Jack was available immediately to go talk with his attorney. Jack was wearing only a pair of shorts. The officers produced his clothing, gave him a shirt, trousers, his shoes, and then after dressing, he went downstairs and then talked to Mr. Howard.
Mr. HUBERT. You went with him too?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I went with him too. Ruby did not know who the attorney was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize him when he saw him? I mean, did he say anything or do anything to indicate he did?
Mr. HALL. I don’t know--Ruby walked over to a door where there was a screen where people can confer with prisoners and I was at the back of the room and I did not hear any of the conversation. They had a private talk--Ruby and Mr. Howard had a private talk.
Mr. HUBERT. Through the usual accommodations for attorneys-clients?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They are separated by a screen?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; and I stayed with the other officers and we were back. I knew Mr. Howard personally, I knew who he was, but whether Jack Ruby did or not, I do not know.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was, as I understand it, between 1:58 and 2:02?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Or just about 6 minutes?
Mr. HALL. Four minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Four minutes--and then he was brought back up?
Mr. HALL. The jail doctor, Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf, was in the jail area and had apparently been there on other business, and one of the officers, I don’t recall whether it was McMillon or Clardy, asked the doctor to look at Jack Ruby while he was there.
Mr. HUBERT. And when was that finished?
Mr. HALL. We returned to the floor above there, the fifth floor, and they--the police officers removed the clothing that had been given Jack and he was returned back to where he was wearing his shorts. Then, I started interviewing him again.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, this has been clarified to some extent already, but I would like to clarify it a bit further. Prior to doing so, let me mark the documents--I’m going to refer to for identification. I have marked the document which purports to be a report of an interview by you, Mr. Hall, of Jack Ruby taken on November 24, 1963, appearing in the Clements’ report of November 30, 1963, at pages 160, 161, 162, and 163.
We are identifying that document on the first page as follows: I have written into the right-hand margin the words, “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of C. Ray Hall,” and I have signed it “Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,” and I have marked the next page of that document, being page 161, with my initials in the lower right-hand corner and the same with pages 162 and 163.
The other document also purports to be a report of an interview by you of Jack Ruby, dated, on the face of it. November 25, 1963. I have marked that document on the first page with the following: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of C. Ray Hall, Leon D. Hubert.” This document with the successive pages also appears in the Clements’ report of November 30, 1963, pages 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18, and as to each of those pages, I have identified them for the purpose of this deposition by marking my initials in the lower right-hand corner.
Now, there has already been clarification, as you know, concerning the date on this Exhibit No. 2, that this was really an interview of November 24 rather than November 25.
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, they are both November 24?
Mr. HALL. Yes; that was a typographical error.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that was a typographical error and that has been clarified.
What I would like to have clarified now was whether or not these two documents, and which actually appear in different places in the Clements’ report, and to which I have given two exhibit numbers, really are a composite of the same interview, or does one of them refer to the first half, such as you have described it, and another to the other half? In other words, your interview was interrupted, you see, and I don’t know whether this is a composite of all of it or whether one of them deals with that first half, which went from 12:40 or 12:44 to 3:15 p.m. and the other part from 4:30 to 5:30 p.m., just how it came to be--that there were two separate documents?
Mr. HALL. These two documents are a composite of the entire interview. The reason they were divided is for reporting purposes. By that, I mean, that the first document relates to the events that happened.
Mr. HUBERT. And by that “the first document” would you use by identification the exhibit numbers I have given them--which one do you mean by “the first”? The first one in Clements’, of course, is Exhibit No. 2, as far as physical position is concerned, because it runs from page 13 to page 18 of the first volume of the Clements’ report of November 30.
Mr. HALL. Your exhibit number here is wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s Commission Document No. 4, you see?
Mr. HALL. And this is what [indicating]?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, this is Commission Document No. 4 too, but different volumes.
Mr. HALL. Commission Document No. 4, vol. 1, relates primarily to the event that happened involving Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. That has been identified by us as Exhibit No. 2 for this deposition.
Mr. HALL. Yes; Exhibit No. 1, which is Commission Document No. 4, vol. 2, relates to background information. In this report we tried to set up a section of the report dealing with the background of Ruby.
Another section dealing with the event surrounding the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald was set up, and it was for that reason that there were two separate reports of an interview here set out, but it was actually a composite of the information obtained during this time between 12:40 p.m. and 5:30 p.m. on November 24, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice from your report and principally, for example, at the bottom of page 15 on Exhibit No. 2 that Ruby refused to answer certain things and would not say, for instance, how he got into the basement and why he brought his revolver and so forth. Do you recall, or is there any way you can tell us whether that denial on his part came before or after he was interviewed by his attorney, Mr. Howard?
Mr. HALL. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that you are referring to some notes; are those the notes that you took contemporaneously with the interviewing?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you a copy that will be available for introducing into the record?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. These are your entire notes on the transactions?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You say there are two parts?
Mr. HALL. I have three copies of the same thing here for your benefit, Mr. Hubert. There are 3 pages there.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand; is this your entire notes?
Mr. HALL. This is an interview log in which I set forth the circumstances of the interview. These are not my notes on the actual interview. I do not have my notes of that interview. I took my notes and prepared these reports of the interview and I commenced the night following the interview and after that was typed up, then I destroyed the notes that I took at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. So, actually the running notes of the interviews themselves do not exist?
Mr. HALL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, as I understand it, standard practice and the interview notes are destroyed after the report is made?
Mr. HALL. After the report of the interview has been prepared. In this case it was a matter of hours following that, and this represents my notes in effect because it was prepared from them.
Mr. HUBERT. It was prepared directly from them?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And immediately--the same day?
Mr. HALL. Immediately afterwards; it probably actually was extended after midnight that night.
Mr. HUBERT. What you have handed me as being your notes is really a log?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. It’s a log showing the times, the date, who was present, and specifically the times and what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m going to mark it for the purpose of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of C. Hay Hall.” On the first page I am signing my name below that. There is a second page which I am initialing in the lower right-hand corner and a third page which I am initialing in the right hand corner, and Mr. Hall, you have been kind enough to supply me with two extra copies which I thank you for, but I will just mark the one for identification, and I think you have already testified concerning what it is.
Mr. HALL. Back to your previous question as to whether this denial on the part of Ruby was before or after his conference with an attorney, Mr. Tom Howard, I believe his conference with Mr. Howard was after that denial?
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had refused to tell you he got in, in effect?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to having talked with Mr. Howard?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I based that on the time he went there, because his conference with Mr. Howard was almost 2 o’clock and there was only--a majority of the interview had been conducted before then.
Mr. HUBERT. Which was--an hour and 15 minutes it had been going on already?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking freely to you?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, if you will refer again to what I have marked as Exhibit No. 2, I notice that Ruby at that time mentions a girl by the name of Karen Bennett of Fort Worth and about sending her a telegram. There is no mention in this report of having received a telephone call from her. Am I correct, then, in my assumption that he did not tell you that at that time?
Mr. HALL. He did not tell me that at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that he did not tell you that the girl had called him at that time--he did not tell you at that time that the girl had called him on the night before?
Mr. HALL. That’s true. He did not tell me at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Referring again to Exhibit No. 2 and page 15 thereof, in the very last paragraph, I wonder if you could clarify for us just what he meant there? You say that this is what Ruby advised you--“He said that sometime after sending the telegram he entered the basement building where the police department is located, entering from the Main Street side. Ruby did not wish to say how he got into the basement or at what time he entered.”
We were a bit confused about that and wanted to get some clarification, because we don’t know if he admitted then that he did go down the ramp, but didn’t want to say anything more about it, or left any question open as to how he got in there. I mean, there is the possibility that there was another Main Street entrance that he could get in. As I understand it, really, he didn’t deny, from what you gather, he went in through the ramp that goes down to the basement, but that is as far as he would go?
Mr. HALL. Yes; he would not give any details as to how he got in or what time--how he went about getting into the ramp to the basement from the Main Street side, but he did admit entering the basement from the Main Street side, and that ramp is the only way to get into it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to show you another document which purports to be a report of an interview of Jack Ruby by you, Mr. Hall, and Mr. Clements--Manning C. Clements on December 12, 1963. For the purpose of identifying that document, as I understood your testimony about it later, I have marked it on the first page as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, deposition of C. Ray Hall,” and I have signed my name below that and I have marked each of the other pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. That document is the report of an interview of December 21, 1963, and runs from page 2 to the top of page 17 of the Clements’ report of January 8, 1964.
Now, I would like you to tell us the circumstances of that interview, how it was arranged, who was present when it started and when it ended and so forth.
Mr. HALL. We had arranged for this interview with Mr. Melvin Belli, the attorney for Jack Ruby, who granted permission for this interview. The interview was held in an interview room located on floor 6-M of the Dallas County Jail in Dallas, Tex. Mr. Melvin Belli of San Francisco, Calif., Mr. Joe Tonahill of Jasper, Tex., Mr. Sam Brody of Los Angeles, Calif., and Mr. William Choulos, [spelling] C-h-o-u-l-o-s, of San Francisco, Calif., were present at the time Special Agent Manning C. Clements and I interviewed Jack Ruby.
Mr. Belli introduced Mr. Brody and Mr. Choulos as members of Mr. Belli’s staff. This interview with Ruby commenced at 1:50 p.m. on December 21, 1963, and concluded at 5 o’clock p.m. on December 21, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the attorneys present all through that period, sir?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; during the entire time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they take part in the interview at all in any active way?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any suggestions or make any objections?
Mr. HALL. I recall that at the beginning of the interview with Jack Ruby I advised Mr. Ruby that he did not have to make any statements and that he was represented by his attorneys who were present at the time of the interview and that any statements he made during this interview could be used against him in a court of law. At that time Mr. Tonahill objected to that statement, that the statements could be used against him in a court of law, and advised me under the Texas law that Mr. Ruby was under arrest and that oral statements could not be used against him in the court of law and that he would not waive such rights, but he would consent to the interview and that Ruby would answer any questions, and Mr. Belli told Ruby to go ahead and answer any questions, and assured Mr. Ruby that he was present and would look after his interests and would be awake during the entire time of the interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you conduct this in sort of a question and answer form, or did you more or less tell him to tell it in his own story?
Mr. HALL. It was primarily in a question and answer form. However, in answering a question, sometimes Ruby would continue and answer the question and continue furnishing other information and as long as he talked I just made notes and then asked other questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Clements was present the whole time too?
Mr. HALL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make notes also?
Mr. HALL. We actually divided up this interview. I asked the questions during the first part, and in this Exhibit No. 3, page 12, at the beginning of the last paragraph on that page, Mr. Clements asked the questions and made the notes for the rest of this. That material preceding that, I asked the questions and made the notes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the notes that you made and that Mr. Clements made?
Mr. HALL. As soon as I recorded this interview for my part of the interview on December 23, 1963, I destroyed my notes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the standard procedure?
Mr. HALL. That is in accordance with the standard procedure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did with his?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. If he followed the standard practice, he would have done the same thing too?
Mr. HALL. It is optional--he may have retained them, but it is not necessary for him to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were present when he was interviewing and he was present when you were interviewing?
Mr. HALL. Yes; I was present--both of us were present during the entire interview from 1:50 p.m. until 5 o’clock p.m., except for about a minute--I stepped out to get a drink of water at the time Mr. Clements commenced his interview--just outside--and returned immediately.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice on page 12, which I think would have been as you described it, part of your interview, you have there what purports to be a direct quote in the sense that the language is contained in that middle paragraph in quotation marks?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean that you actually wrote those words down, or is that a paraphrase too?
Mr. HALL. I wrote his exact words down there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you put them in quotation marks in the report means you actually wrote the words down, and that is why you put quotation marks?
Mr. HALL. That’s right; that’s why I put the quotation marks.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was a paraphrase, in a sense of what he is telling you?
Mr. HALL. It is in the third person and the others were in the first person language; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you put language in quotes that way, actually take it down, did you or did you here read it back to him?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess he had to slow down or something so that you could get it, or were you using shorthand?
Mr. HALL. I used some shorthand, yes, sir; but primarily I was making actual notes. In something I thought was extremely pertinent, I took down his exact words.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this report ever shown to him or to his attorneys later?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. If you would refer to page 10 of Exhibit No. 3, that is to say, the interview of December 21, in the middle paragraph you will note that here Ruby does refer to a call from “Little Lynn,” who has been identified as Karen Bennett, on the morning of November 24, and following that, there is a statement that he told you on Friday night, November 22, he had to give her $5 so she could get home--is that what he told you?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at, that is not a typographical error?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; because--I said, “Friday night,” although that is what he told me, but if you will notice on page 1 of this exhibit when he is describing the incident where Little Lynn became sick, he said it was either on November 20 or November 21, so the exact days--it’s possible that he was not sure of the exact dates, but this is what he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what he told you? That’s what I wanted to get straight.
Mr. HALL. That’s what he told me because I had Friday, November 22, in my notes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you appeared at the bond hearing in January and at that time apparently you were asked a series of questions relating to what Ruby had said to you about his activities on the morning of November 24, and you were asked whether he told you that he got up about 10, at least, ate breakfast, went downstairs and talked to his next door neighbor about building a dog fence. And then you asked to refer to your notes and they told you you could, but you said, “I don’t have in my notes the time he got up.” On the next page they had repeated that about the next door neighbor and the dog fence that they were talking about and then you stated, “He told me he talked to a next door neighbor. I don’t recall him telling me about a fence.” Now, did he mention who that neighbor was--is that the one that is referred to----
Mr. HALL. He referred to this next door neighbor as the father-in-law of Police Officer Buddy Munster.
Mr. HUBERT. And he said that he had talked to him but he didn’t talk to him about a dog fence?
Mr. HALL. That was my testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. HALL. That was my testimony which is recorded on there.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s right; I just wanted to identify it with that.
Mr. HALL. With your exhibits here.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony when you said he did talk to you about a next door neighbor but you didn’t recall him talking to you about a fence or a dog fence is actually a part of your report on page 10 of Exhibit No. 3, the very last paragraph?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And it is a fact that he didn’t say anything about a dog fence or talking to this man about a dog fence, but merely talking to him?
Mr. HALL. He just made this statement as he drove out of his driveway he stopped and talked to his neighbor, name unknown, but who is the father-in-law of Police Officer Buddy Munster.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you referred to; is that it?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. If you wish to know who that neighbor was--he is Mr. J. Doyle Stokes or J. D. Stokes and he lives at 213 South Ewing. Now, Mr. Ruby did not give me that information.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a statement from him?
Mr. HALL. Yes; he was interviewed and you will find it in an interview under the name of Doyle Stokes.
Mr. HUBERT. He lives at 213 South Ewing Street and his real name is Jefferson D. Stokes; is that correct?
Mr. HALL. I’m not sure--his name is J. D. Stokes, I’m not sure whether the J. stands for Jefferson, but the D. stands for Doyle.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at the trial on the merits too; that is to say, the main trial in February and March?
Mr. HALL. Of Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I was not subpenaed.
Mr. HUBERT. They only called you for this bond hearing?
Mr. HALL. I was subpenaed at several of the hearings, but this bond hearing is the only court hearing of any type that I actually testified in.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Clements called to your knowledge?
Mr. HALL. During the trial?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. HALL. I’m not positive, but I don’t believe he testified during it or at any of the hearings.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the State officials confer with you for the purpose of using you as witnesses to what Ruby had told you?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reason why?
Mr. HALL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all, Mr. Hall. Have you anything else you would like to add?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; I’ll try to answer any questions you may have.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I have any more. That clarifies it all. Thank you, sir.
Mr. HALL. Thank you very much.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall, prior to the beginning of this deposition, you and I had not met in fact nor had we conversed in any way at all?
Mr. HALL. That’s correct. As far as I know, I have never seen you before I entered this room.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we did speak about some of the acquaintances I knew many years ago in the FBI, but we did not speak about anything concerning this deposition at all?
Mr. HALL. No, sir; we had no conversation concerning this matter that you are connected with at anytime except during the time you were taking this deposition.
Mr. HUBERT. And so that all of our contact as to this whole matter has been a matter of record?
Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s all, and I thank you very much.
Mr. HALL. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR
The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 9:15 a.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kantor, as you know, the Commission has been set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, and a joint resolution of Congress, which was enacted on November 29 of last year. The Commission has been directed to inquire into and evaluate the evidence with respect to the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today because, from the interview that you have provided to the FBI it appears that you would have some information which would bear upon the activities of Jack Ruby, and the events that transpired between the time the President was assassinated and the time that Ruby shot Oswald. I believe that you received a letter from us.
Mr. KANTOR. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state for the record when you received the letter?
Mr. KANTOR. I want to make sure. I am not sure whether it was Thursday or Friday morning. The letter was dated May 28. I received it on the 29th.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive a 3-day notice by mail, and I believe that has been complied with.
Mr. KANTOR. There is something in the letter, though, I would like to bring up. It says, “The Commission is authorized to pay you the same fees as are paid to witnesses whose depositions are taken in connection with”--et cetera. I want to waive any fee which would be connected with this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You are certainly entitled to it. It is minimal, I can assure you. Do you have any other questions that you want to ask before we get started?
Mr. KANTOR. No, none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KANTOR. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, my first name is Seth, last name is Kantor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?
Mr. KANTOR. I live at 4325 Maple Avenue, Bethesda.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us your birth date, please?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. January 9, 1926.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?
Mr. KANTOR. I am married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at present?
Mr. KANTOR. I am a newspaper writer. I am employed by Scripps-Howard Newspapers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular paper, or by the chain itself?
Mr. KANTOR. I am correspondent for Texas papers, and write for all of our papers as well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed with Scripps-Howard?
Mr. KANTOR. A total of 5 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your employment before that?
Mr. KANTOR. I was on the Dallas Times Herald, in Dallas, Tex., intermittently. I was on the Fort Worth Press, which is a Scripps-Howard paper. And then went to the Dallas Times Herald. And then came here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been in Washington for 5 years, is that right?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I have been in Washington for 2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The 5-year period includes some time with the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. KANTOR. With the Fort Worth Press, and with the Denver Rocky Mountain News, which are both Scripps-Howard papers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when did you work for the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. KANTOR. I worked for the Times Herald from September 1960 until May 1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before September 1960?
Mr. KANTOR. I was with the Fort Worth Press.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, then, the 5 years we have covered are the total time you have been in the newspaper business.
Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I have been in the newspaper business about 18 years, but in the employ of Scripps-Howard for 5.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Can you just give us a general idea where you have worked in those 18 years?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. With the Associated Press in Detroit, and on the Lamar, Colo., Daily News, and the Pueblo, Colo., Chieftain, the Denver Rocky Mountain News. And I spent 5 years as a magazine writer for magazines published in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you live in Dallas at some time? Is that correct?
Mr. KANTOR. For a 2-year period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was that 2-year period? Can you tell us when it began and when it ended?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. September 1960 until May 1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During those months, did you have occasion to meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him before September 1960?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I had not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was within a very few months after I joined the Times Herald. I was a feature writer for the paper. I think by nature of the stories that I wrote, I sort of attracted Jack Ruby. He came up to my desk one day and introduced himself and said that he owned a club or clubs in town, and that he thought he might have some stories for me from time to time, and he did.
Over the next several months, he provided me with maybe as many as half-a-dozen feature stories, on characters in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what those stories are?
Mr. KANTOR. One was with an entertainer in his club, a lady who managed to charm snakes while she was stripping. She was also a housewife in the suburbs by day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that story published?
Mr. KANTOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just go through these 6 stories, if you would, and tell us what they were, and if they were or were not published.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, each was published. I might have some difficulty remembering them at this point.
I remember a limbo dancer who he brought up from the Caribbean and said that he was helping in getting his citizenship. I did a story with the limbo dancer. We got a picture of him at the U.S. Naturalization Service office in Dallas passing under a low bar.
I did a lot of stories. I am really not sure off the top of my head. I wish I could have gotten out some old clips and prepared for this, if I had realized. But they were stories of that nature, anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And your best estimate is that there would have been about half-a-dozen stories that you wrote?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did any of the stories that you wrote have to do with Jack Ruby himself?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I never wrote about him. I never went into either of his places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever provide any publicity for Jack?
Mr. KANTOR. None, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you never went into any of his clubs. I take it by that you also did not know him on a social basis.
Mr. KANTOR. Did not know him on a social basis, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you would see him from time to time, about how long would it be that you would talk with him?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, it would vary. There was a photographer on the paper, for instance, who was doing some outside work for Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his name?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. His name is Pete Fisher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the work that he was doing for him?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know everything he was doing for him, but I believe he was making some stock publicity shots of the dancers in the club, the downtown club. And I well remember on one of the occasions that Jack was in the office about 7 or 8 o’clock one night to see Pete Fisher, and I was working late. I talked with Jack probably for more than an hour or so.
I don’t know how many times I talked to him altogether, or how long each time period was. But they ranged, I guess, from a few minutes to about an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to meet him outside of your business?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I never did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Mr. Ruby ever talk to you about himself, or about his background, or his clubs?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This one occasion I mentioned, when he was in the office late in the day, he had a young man with him who, I believe, he said was a nephew. At any rate, it was a relative. And he said that he was trying to help the boy and get him an education, and that he, himself, had not had too much of an education, and he felt that--he was sorry he wound up in the girlie show business. He wished that he had a more substantial occupation.
And, at that time, I recall he told me about growing up in Chicago, and that things were pretty hard for him, and that he had pulled himself up by the bootstraps and still would prefer to be out of the business he was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Ruby have any characteristic speech pattern that you recall? Anything unusual about his speech or noticeable?
Mr. KANTOR. I guess he had a very slight lisp, perhaps--not very strong, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his choice of words? Was he a man who was given to talking in grandiose terms or using profanity?
Mr. KANTOR. If he used profanity, it doesn’t register with me. He was an effusive person. Obviously when he liked somebody or something, he liked that person or that thing very much. And if he didn’t, he portrayed it rather strongly, also. And his facial expressions would change, depending on what he was talking about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular things that he expressed great like or dislike for?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I remember one time he told me that he had met a movie star--and I honestly don’t remember her name, except that she was sort of on the way down--out at Love Field, somewhere around 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning. He was out there, for whatever reason I don’t know. And he talked to her for a period of time until her plane was ready. She was just going through. And he had gotten a promise from her to appear at his club. He was just ecstatic about this. He thought this was the greatest thing in the world. He was full of praise for her, because she stopped and talked with him, without knowing him at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were in Dallas, were you not, at the time that President Kennedy was shot?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us where you were at the approximate time that the shots were fired?
Mr. KANTOR. I was in the motorcade. I was in the White House Press Bus No. 2. This was about--I don’t know--11 vehicles back, or some such.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in a position where you could hear the shots or see any of the actions?
Mr. KANTOR. I heard the last two shots. I didn’t know there were three shots until some time later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after the shots were fired, what did you do?
Mr. KANTOR. We tried to get off the bus to see what had happened, but we were not allowed to, and the bus went at a high rate of speed out to the Dallas Trade Mart. There we were let out at a side entrance, and we still had no word of anything. We raced up four flights to a press office up there, and still could not find out what happened. So we raced down the four flights again.
One of the reporters--I don’t know who--got on the phone and contacted the Dallas police, and talked to Chief Stevenson and discovered that the President had been shot and had been taken to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here just a minute. Do you recall the route that you took from the scene of the shooting to the Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. We went on to the Stemmons Expressway immediately, and took the expressway to a point immediately adjacent to the trade mart. I don’t know what the little road is that goes off of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say that it took you to drive from the scene of the shooting to the trade mart?
Mr. KANTOR. We were traveling at a speed of about 65–70 miles an hour. I guess it would be 4 or 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did it take from the time you got out of that bus and ran up and down your four flights of stairs until the one press representative was able to make a telephone call?
Mr. KANTOR. I would guess about another 4 or 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after he made the telephone call, what happened--what did you do?
Mr. KANTOR. I shouted to a couple of the other reporters that I was familiar enough with Dallas and would get a taxicab. And someone who was there to attend the function for the President overheard me and volunteered the service of his station wagon. He gave us his name, but I didn’t write it down, and don’t remember it.
About eight of us got into the station wagon. And outside of the reporters who were in the pool car behind the President, we were the first group of reporters to arrive at the hospital.
This gentleman who drove us there in a station wagon broke an awful lot of traffic rules, and even went against traffic at a couple of points, driving on the wrong side of the street. He took us across a field, I remember, at one point. We made it there very quickly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this be a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, or 5 minutes?
Mr. KANTOR. I would guess 2 or 3 minutes, because Parkland Hospital, especially if you take shortcuts like that, is very close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this man park and let you out, or did the vehicle just let you out and go on?
Mr. KANTOR. We were waved on to the emergency entrance side of Parkland by a policeman, and the driver let us out of the car, I would guess, 25 yards from the entrance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would do this. I am going to hand you a pad of paper here and a pencil, and ask you if in a rough fashion you can sketch out where you were in relationship to Parkland Hospital, and draw on there a sufficient enough outline to indicate so that we can talk from here on about the diagram and where you went from time to time.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, now, you don’t mean where I was in relationship to Parkland Hospital at the time of the shooting?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean once--we have arrived at the scene now, and the man has let you out about 25 yards from the entrance. Why don’t we start with the diagram that shows that area, and would have enough detail in it to show the other areas you went to at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. Well, roughly, at least as a start----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let me mark this. I will put a notation down here. I am going to mark this yellow sheet of legal size paper “Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, referring to Exhibit No. 1, Mr. Kantor, why don’t you go ahead and fill in the details and talk as you think is appropriate.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. We were waved in off of Harry Hines Boulevard, by an officer, which led us on a path on the southern side of the hospital to a point where the emergency entrance is on the western side. We were let out of the station wagon about 25 yards, I would guess, directly opposite the emergency entranceway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have marked that--shall we call that point 1 on the diagram. Mark that point 1, where you were let out.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do from there?
Mr. KANTOR. I remember that I was one of the reporters who hollered an assurance to the driver of the car that he could stay with us. He was worried about what would happen to him and his car. And he wanted, also, to know what was going on. But I left him cold. I ran as fast as I could to the front of the emergency entranceway, where I saw the President’s limousine. There I saw a great deposit of blood on the ground next to it, on the right-hand side of the car.
Senator Ralph Yarborough, of Texas, was standing very close by, probably 4 or 5 yards away. And I went up to him and asked him what had happened, and he was reluctant to tell me what he had seen, although subsequently he told me he had seen enough to know that the President was dead, or in a dying condition. But he gave me several comments which would lead me to believe that a horrible thing had happened. And I told him that I absolutely had to get in.
He led me to a police officer standing in front of the emergency door and told the officer that I was with the party, and I produced my White House credentials. And the officer let me in.
I took up search for a telephone. I saw Merriman Smith of United Press International using a phone at a desk in a hallway, and went past him, down a hallway just a very short distance to where I found a phone in a booth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a pay telephone?
Mr. KANTOR. No; to my best recollection it was not. I don’t really remember for sure--but I don’t believe it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the phone was on the first floor of Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. And I had difficulty reaching Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here. Did you have to go through a hospital operator?
Mr. KANTOR. I am just trying to remember. I don’t think it was a pay phone, and I think my trouble was dialing and getting out. I made several attempts at it, as I recall, and finally got a Dallas long-distance operator, who put me through to Washington. I think that is where the problem had been--just getting out. And I telephoned what I could to the Scripps-Howard office in Washington--that is, the little bit I had seen, and the comments I had gotten from Senator Yarborough.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you made this telephone call, what was your impression as to the condition of the President?
Mr. KANTOR. I had no idea, beyond the fact that I had seen the blood and that Senator Yarborough had told me that something very terrible had happened.
While on the phone, I discovered that I was immediately across the hall from a door which led from the emergency area. I saw Mrs. Johnson being led out, I believe, on the arm of a Secret Service man on one side and on the arm of Representative Jack Brooks, of Texas, on the other. And I saw a priest coming out of this area--out of this doorway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to describe what was behind that door, other than it was an emergency door?
Mr. KANTOR. I attempted actually to go in before I got on the phone, and the Secret Service man who was stationed there told me I couldn’t go in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later find out what was in that area?
Mr. KANTOR. Not exactly. A few days later I got a description of what the emergency area was like inside. But I don’t know exactly which part of it I was facing at the time I was on the telephone. I was dictating a story in to Jim Lucas of Scripps-Howard, and just describing things as I saw them unfold in the hallway at that point.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation with Mr. Lucas last?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, counting the time that it took me to get Washington, and my story dictated, I would say about 20 to 25 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you make a long-distance telephone call to your home office, do you use a credit card, or is there some other indication used by the telephone company for billing purposes?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I just called direct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us the telephone number that you called in Washington?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I called District 7-7750.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other Scripps-Howard representatives at Parkland Hospital at the time you made this call?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I was the only person on the trip for Scripps-Howard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask for any particular person? Was it a station-to-station call?
Mr. KANTOR. It was a station-to-station call, and the switchboard operator gave me a man by the name of Charles Egger, who is managing editor of Scripps-Howard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you had completed that telephone call, what did you do?
Mr. KANTOR. I walked into the hall where I saw two Texas Congressmen who were on the trip, Representatives Henry Gonzalez and Albert Thomas, standing together. They were immobile, and they were standing against a wall. I asked them for whatever they could tell me. Henry Gonzalez appeared to be unable to speak. At least he did not speak. And Albert Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been brought in for the President.
That was the first I knew that the President had been hit in the head. It was at that point, when Malcolm Kilduff, who was in charge of press arrangements for the White House on the trip, came behind me and just touched my back as he passed by, and he said, “Come with me, I have an announcement to make.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?
Mr. KANTOR. I followed him out of the emergency door and on to the grass. He was accompanied by Merriman Smith, who was incessantly asking for whatever news there was without waiting to go where Kilduff was going, and another man with him was--I am sorry, I have forgotten his name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it is actually in one of your earlier interviews. We will get to that later.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. At any rate, I was directly behind Kilduff, who was moving rapidly. And we went on to the grass and up a little hill and around the corner of the hospital, moving from west to south.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back up towards Harry Hines Boulevard?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. We went in an entranceway. I am not sure whether it was the main entrance of the hospital or whether there is a door near the main entrance of the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you mark on the diagram there where the main entrance is?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes--No. 2?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just write “Main Entrance.” We will use the numbers for your position.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. I followed Mr. Kilduff up a flight of stairs to the second floor, and down one or two hallways, until we came to the room where he made the announcement that the President had died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did the announcement take?
Mr. KANTOR. The announcement was very brief. I don’t know actually where all the other reporters came from. There were quite a number of reporters in the room already. And as best as I understand it, there were a vast number of reporters who never got into the hospital in the emergency area, and had moved into this second floor room for the announcement.
At any rate, everybody seemed ready for an announcement at the time that Mr. Kilduff got there. And so the announcement itself took a minute.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the announcement was made, had you talked with other reporters or other people in the area so that you were able to tell whether there was any prevailing attitude or rumors circulating around as to the condition of the President?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I had no opportunity. The only people I talked to were the two Texas Congressmen, as I got off the phone, and that was the only word I had with anyone until the announcement came from Malcolm.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you didn’t, yourself, even have any firm expectation as to what the announcement of Kilduff would be?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I knew it was a rather grim situation, but I didn’t know how grim.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a prepared statement handed out?
Mr. KANTOR. No; it was not. He made the statement under trying circumstances. His voice was quivering. He was leaning on a table which is used by a teacher in the classroom, which was being used as an emergency press headquarters. With great difficulty he made the announcement that the President had died at about 1 o’clock, which would have been a half hour before he was making the announcement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of the announcement at 1:30?
Mr. KANTOR. I was following my watch very closely because it was a matter of newspaper deadlines, especially for our Texas papers. The reason I had called Washington was because I felt that I could not begin calling our three papers in Texas individually, and I felt that from Washington the story could be related to all 18 of our papers. And so I was watching the time closely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report to your Washington office that the time of the announcement had been 1:30?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe I did. And if I didn’t, the wire services were doing that at the same time. But Mr. Kilduff said that he would have further announcements to make in--I think he established the time as 10 minutes. And told us to make our phone calls or do what we had to do, and return to this room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make a phone call?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I went down the hall. There were no phones set up for us, of course. We were going into whatever offices we could find with available phones. I went into an office, a large office, which had three nurses in it, and asked if I could use one of their phones. And, again, I had trouble getting out.
After trying over and over, I managed to talk to Mr. Egger again and tell him. And by now he was concerned with the Vice President, what was going to happen there, and should the office send another man down to start following Mr. Johnson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation last?
Mr. KANTOR. Probably took me 5 minutes to get out, and the conversation was about 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then did you return to Mr. Kilduff for further announcements?
Mr. KANTOR. I returned to the room, and Mr. Kilduff, to the best of my recollection, was not there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you made your telephone call was it before you walked outside of Parkland Hospital again?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, upon later recollection I thought that it was about 10 to 15 minutes, because we went back into the makeshift pressroom and--I really am not sure whether Mr. Kilduff was there or not.
But Bill Stinson, who was--who is an aide to Governor John Connally, came in dressed in a doctor’s uniform--he had just come from the emergency room, and was mistaken for being a doctor. And I remember Kilduff or someone talking to him before Stinson talked to us to tell us about the Governor’s condition. I remember Kilduff saying, “1 o’clock, 1 o’clock, 1 o’clock.” I didn’t know what significance that had. So I guess that Malcolm Kilduff was there when we returned.
Wayne Hawks, of the transportation staff of the White House, interrupted and said that a pool was needed immediately, and about four or five of us, perhaps as many as seven people altogether, followed him and ran down a stairway towards the main entranceway. I didn’t know what a pool was needed for, and I was very reluctant to leave the hospital. But when I got outside in the main entrance area, I saw the Texas congressional delegation----
Mr. GRIFFIN. About where was that? Put a number on the diagram, please.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; the sidewalk curved, somehow, like this, and the cars were stretched along this area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me indicate for the record that you have placed a No. “2” on the diagram, and that you have made a curved line that indicates a walk, and some marks alongside it to represent the automobiles. Go ahead.
Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to Henry Gonzalez, who was holding a brown paper bag in his hand. He told me that it was the effects of Governor Connally. Mr. Gonzalez was still badly shaken.
And I talked to Senator Yarborough again. And he said that the group was going to the airport immediately.
And I knew then that the pool was formed to go out to the airport. However, I still didn’t want to leave the hospital, because I know that my office was concerned with what was going to happen to Mr. Johnson.
At the same time, I saw Mr. and Mrs. Johnson closely guarded coming out of the hospital, completely surrounded by men, and put into a car, and they sped away.
I spoke to the mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell. He was unable to furnish me with any information as to what was going to happen. I turned then and went back up to the second floor.
Now, as I had told the FBI, it was either at this point or it was at a point originally when I went up behind Malcolm Kilduff that I spoke with Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you to place on the map approximately where you were the first time that you think you might have seen Jack Ruby--if you would place a No. “3” on the map where you were the first time when you think you might have seen Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. All right. It was inside the building, but just barely inside. It was just immediately inside the doorway. I am not sure, as I said, whether there was a small door next to the main entrance itself, or whether this occurred just inside the main entrance. But it seems to me it was----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me suggest that maybe what you could do is use two numbers, a 3-A and 3-B, to indicate the two places the first time you think you might have seen Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, so far as I remember, it would--I mean I am talking about the same place in both instances.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me----
Mr. KANTOR. I am just not sure in my memory of the physical makeup of this entranceway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight, then. The first time you saw Ruby, before you went up to Mr. Kilduff’s press conference----
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; what I am saying is I only saw him once and talked to him that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand. You are not sure whether you saw him before or after the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you saw him the first time, are you uncertain as to whether--as to which door it was that you saw him by?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I am uncertain as to which door I went in. And as I went in the door, that is where he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I am asking you to do, then, is indicate by the Nos. 3-A and 3-B where these two doors might have been that you are uncertain about, having reference to the time you went into the building just before the press conference.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was the same door both times. It is just that I am unsure where that door is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KANTOR. But it is in this main entrance area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it----
Mr. KANTOR. I would have to just guess, really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you are saying that you feel that the door was not on that portion of the entranceway towards Harry Hines Boulevard, or am I mistaken about that? I want to try to limit this somewhere as to what area you think this might have been in.
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall going past the main entranceway, going towards Harry Hines Boulevard. It seems to me that it either was right at the main entrance, or a door perhaps adjacent to the main entrance, because it seems like it was a small entranceway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you again then--why don’t you place a 3-A where this small door before the main entranceway might have been, and a 3-B generally indicating the main entranceway.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything in particular about the doorway that you were in--that you were near at the time you thought you saw Ruby that sticks out in your mind?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, three things. It was not a large doorway keeps sticking in my mind--that is why I have doubts about it being right in the main entrance. Also there were stairs within, a very few steps, 5 to 10 steps, probably, within the doorway there was a stairway going up. And, thirdly, I recall that beside Jack Ruby there were nurses and there were people who looked like interns--at any rate they were doctors, dressed in white.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if during the period you were at Parkland Hospital, as you drove into Parkland Hospital and at the time you left, if this entranceway to the hospital by Harry Hines Boulevard was blocked or guarded in any way to prevent the entrance of normal private vehicles?
Mr. KANTOR. It appeared to be that way as we came up. On the other hand, the driver of our vehicle, at our urging, leaned out of his window and hollered “Press.” Perhaps he said White House Press. At any rate, the officer immediately in our way backed off and waved us in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to the main entranceway of the hospital, where would parking facilities be in relationship to that main entranceway for normal people visiting the hospital on regular business?
Mr. KANTOR. Even when I was a newspaperman in Dallas, I always went to the emergency area when I had to go to the hospital, because it was relative to a story. I am not totally sure about this area. There is a parking area--because I can remember buses coming in and out of this area here. But it seems to me it would be set back on the opposite side, and that this would be the throughway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have drawn a line perpendicular to Harry Hines Boulevard, paralleling the side of Parkland Hospital that the main entrance is on, and then to--would that be the south of that line?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed some more hashmarks, and you think there is where the general parking area was.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; it is very vague to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We can check this ourselves. I am trying to get some idea where a man like Ruby would have parked his automobile to get to the place where you think you saw him.
Well, now, what happened----
Mr. KANTOR. Well, excuse me. I am sorry. If that is what you are getting at.
There is a parking area on the west side, also, as best I can remember, because, it seems to me that there were a great number of cars in the area where we were first let out of the station wagon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, would the parking area be in here where I am placing this line?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe so, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will write “Parking” on there. And I will put parking over there, just in front of the main entrance to the hospital.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what happened when you saw Ruby--when you encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital, what the encounter consisted of?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I apparently walked right past him, because the first I was aware of Jack Ruby was that as I was walking, I was stopped momentarily by a tug on the back of my jacket. And I turned and saw Jack Ruby standing there. He had his hand extended. I very well remember my first thought. I thought, well, there is Jack Ruby. I had been away from Dallas 18 months and 1 day at that time, but it seemed just perfectly normal to see Jack Ruby standing there, because he was a known goer to events. And I had my mind full of many things.
My next reaction was to just turn and continue on my way. But he did have his hand out. And I took his hand and shook hands with him. He called me by name. And I said hello to him, I said, “Hello, Jack,” I guess. And he said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing?” I said, “Yes”; but I also knew it was no time for small talk, and I was most anxious to continue on up the stairway, because I was standing right at the base of the stairway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside the building or outside?
Mr. KANTOR. I was inside the building, just immediately inside the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the doors guarded?
Mr. KANTOR. If there was a guard on the door, I don’t recall seeing one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you do recall, however, that there was a guard at the entrance to the emergency area?
Mr. KANTOR. There was at least one guard, yes--when I first got there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Go ahead.
Mr. KANTOR. A Dallas policeman. I am not sure how many Secret Service men or other guards there were. But I do remember this one man, because he let me in.
At any rate, Jack Ruby said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing,” or words to that effect. I agreed with him that it was.
And he said--and he had quite a look of consternation on his face. He looked emotional--which also seemed fitting enough for Jack Ruby.
But he asked me, curiously enough, he said, “Should I close my places for the next 3 nights, do you think?”
And I said, “Yes, I think that is a good idea.”
And I excused myself. And he said he understood, and I went on.
And that was the sum total of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: At the time you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you see any other press representatives whom you had remembered from your days in Dallas, who worked in Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. I didn’t see any outside. However, by the time Kilduff made his announcement at 1:30, there were newsmen coming in from all over whom I recognized. And because of this weird situation, unreal situation, I didn’t speak to any then.
During the next hour or so that I was in the hospital I saw a number of news people from both Dallas and Fort Worth who I at least said hello to, who I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any people from the Dallas Morning News that you saw at Parkland Hospital, either reporters or photographers?
Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I remember seeing, and I don’t think I recall seeing a Dallas Morning News person at all until I got to the police station later that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to tell me who you remember seeing from the Dallas papers at Parkland Hospital, or just who you generally remember seeing during those 3 days.
Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I can remember seeing in the makeshift press headquarters from Dallas and Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At Parkland?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But I take it you don’t remember anybody from the Morning News?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall anyone from the Dallas Morning News, no, as a matter of fact.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How far is the Morning News Building in Dallas from the Times Herald Building?
Mr. KANTOR. The better part of a mile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw Ruby, did you notice anybody with him? Did he seem to be with anybody?
Mr. KANTOR. He didn’t seem to be with anybody. The only other people I noticed in this area--as I say, it seemed like a small entranceway, and it was just a very few steps to the stairway--were these people who appeared to be hospital attendants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if at the time you were at Parkland Hospital there were television cameras setup outside the main entranceway?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I was told later on that various people around the country who I know saw me on television as I came out to talk to the Congressmen before they went out to Love Field, and I was not aware of any cameras.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it is your best impression that you were shown on TV?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I have been told that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any idea what TV networks you appeared on?
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. This happened frequently, incidentally, over the weekend, also, in the police station as well. I don’t know--I guess all the networks were involved at one point or another, but I don’t know when or where.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the first report that you made of this encounter with Ruby, you reported that you saw him before you went to the press conference.
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And now as I understand your testimony, you are not sure whether it was before or after.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and the thing that gave me pause was that Jack Ruby had specifically said to me, or asked me my opinion about closing his places for three nights, and it occurred to me later on that no announcement of the President’s death had been made, as I was following Kilduff up the stairway, at 1:30, whereas at approximately 2 o’clock it had been made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you try to focus on your state of mind at the time that you first wrote your newspaper article about this, and reported that it was before the press conference. What was it at that time that made you think that you saw Ruby before the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. To be honest, with all the events crowded into that weekend, I don’t think that I recalled the significance of my second brief trip out of the hospital to the main entranceway in front of the hospital, and then back in again. It was a very fast trip. And I think it was just a failure on my part to remember the second incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you were going back into the hospital the second time, where were you going?
Mr. KANTOR. I was returning to the makeshift press headquarters in the classroom, on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were entering that building, did you have any expectation that there was something important going on at that pressroom that you ought to get to right away?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I didn’t know. I knew that I was not going with this pool group, and that my people in Washington were interested in knowing the logistics of the U.S. Government at that moment, where Lyndon Johnson was going and what was going to happen, and were we remaining in Dallas, and John Connally’s condition, and everything at once. And this seemed to be the logical place to get whatever information there was, because information was very scanty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get at is whether your concern or apprehension about getting into the building was any greater as you went in before the press conference than it was when you returned after the press conference.
Mr. KANTOR. No; I would say this was a consistent feeling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that your reluctance to stop and talk with Ruby when you saw him wouldn’t have been any greater at one time than at another?
Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I saw really a number of close friends on the second floor of the hospital, newspapermen who I had known intimately, been to their house, and they had been to my house quite often. And we still didn’t indulge in anything resembling small talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question in your mind that you did see Ruby out at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. If it was a matter of just seeing him, I would have long ago been full of doubt. But I did talk to the man, and he did stop me, and I just can’t have any doubt about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. As a matter of fact, I didn’t give it much thought, or any thought, perhaps, again, concrete thought at least, until the following night, Saturday night, when things quieted down enough so that I could take a walk in downtown Dallas, somewhere around 10 o’clock in the evening. And I passed by Ruby’s place, the Carousel, and saw a sign on the door stating that it was closed. And I recalled this weird conversation I had had with him at the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. Excuse me--because a man named Barney Weinstein, who operates a strip joint a couple of doors away, had his place open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first think about this again after Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I understood later on that Jack Ruby had been in the assembly room in the basement of the Dallas Police Station after midnight on Friday going into Saturday. I didn’t see him at that time. I was in that room. It was a very crowded room. But I thought about our conversation on Saturday when I passed by his place. And earlier Saturday evening I thought of Jack Ruby because meat sandwiches, beef sandwiches, I believe they were, had shown up in the pressroom of the Dallas Police Station, and I heard someone remark that Jack Ruby had brought them in. I didn’t see him then, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard this while you were at the police station?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; Well, I was going in the room to get a sandwich, and they were gone, they were gone very rapidly. I heard someone either specifically say it to me or I heard someone specifically saying to someone else that Jack Ruby was the person that brought these in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Friday afternoon or late Friday evening, or in the middle of Friday?
Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure now. It seems to me that it was Saturday. It seems to me that it was Saturday, late afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when, after you walked down Commerce Street on Saturday night did you next think about your encounter with Ruby at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, having walked past his place, and having seen that it was closed, I don’t know whether I gave it any more thought.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean after that, when was the next time you thought about it?
Mr. KANTOR. The next time was just moments after 11:21 a.m., Sunday morning, when I discovered that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do immediately after Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, I didn’t see anything more than a hand and a gun as the shooting occurred. I was very close to where Lee Harvey Oswald was walking. I was intently watching his face and was in hopes I could ask him a question as he approached.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you to do this. We have a diagram here of the jail basement. You might take a look at it. I am going to mark on the diagram “Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor, Exhibit No. 2, June 2, 1964, for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will try to explain the diagram to you.
Mr. KANTOR. I think I am beginning to understand. This is a rampway here and a rampway here, is it not?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have got the sides right. Here is the Main Street; here is Commerce Street. Now, the ramp is at this point where it says down ramp--that is the Main Street ramp. And at the base of the Main Street ramp, there are some designations as to footage across the ramp. And then in the portion of the map which is closest to you there is a diagram of the jail office and the hallway that leads from the Harwood Street side of the jail into the ramp area.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And to refresh your recollection, the jail elevator which is shown on the map is the elevator that Oswald was brought out of, and he was led around in front of the dotted lines which are shown in the diagram, and then over to a door which is also shown. Now, why don’t you again take a pencil and indicate on the map where you were standing at the time Oswald was shot. Why don’t you just cut a “K” there for yourself.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that you were standing right at what would be the entranceway to the parking area of the garage on the west side of the ramps that lead through the basement.
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you mention in your statement to the FBI that you saw Detective Combest in the basement. Did you know Combest before----
Mr. KANTOR. No; the first time I talked to him was upstairs outside Chief Curry’s office following the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us on the diagram here where Combest was standing, to your recollection?
Mr. KANTOR. Right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Marked with an X. Now, can you put a mark on the map where Ruby was when you first saw him?
Mr. KANTOR. He was on the floor, having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, in approximately the same place where I designated where Billy Combest was standing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So when you say all you saw was an arm and a gun, you didn’t even notice him before the shooting?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I thought it was an officer who shot Oswald. That was my first reaction.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you indicated in your statement to the FBI that you heard Combest say something. Did you actually hear that, or did Combest tell you that?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I heard the words and did not know who uttered them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And is it fair to say--well, let me ask you this: The words that you heard, could you tell if they came from one person or more than one person? Or was the confusion so great and things moving so quickly you couldn’t really distinguish?
Mr. KANTOR. It was one man definitely saying, “You son of a bitch.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is your memory?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think you also indicated that you heard somebody yell “Jack”. Do you have any recollection of that now? Somebody saying “Jack”.
Mr. KANTOR. I am not as positive about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KANTOR. Upon talking with Combest upstairs, he told me, he told two or three reporters there that that was what was said, and I used that in my story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw happen after you saw Ruby down on the floor.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, when the shot was fired, and I was still watching Oswald, and heard him groan, and slump--watched him slump. For no good reason at all, I moved in his direction. A man standing next to me from the Dallas Times Herald, a reporter, moved with me. There was a car located approximately right in front of us as we moved. Then we saw a detective come bounding over the roof of the car and onto the hood and landing here, just in front of this melee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you marked the X on the map?
Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe it was Detective Captain Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you see happen?
Mr. KANTOR. I became painfully aware as I moved into this area which was becoming very crowded and there was a lot of shoving and pushing going on--there was a man down on the pavement, and I could not see who it was. I heard one of the detectives, and I believe it was Captain Jones, holler up to a police officer standing here something to the effect that--shoot the first man who tries to move out, or something like that. And I saw this officer swivel around, pointing his revolver down into the ramp. And I became painfully aware that we were all going to get shot and killed in another moment or two, and I tried to back off this way. And the reporter from the Dallas Times Herald, Bob Fenley, knew one of the detectives in this area, as Ruby was being dragged off towards the jail office. The detective was weeping, for one reason or another. And we were being pushed back. However, Fenley crouched down low and moved towards his friend and asked him a question, and came back and said to me very clearly, “The man who shot Oswald is named Jack Ruby.” And I was surprised that Bob apparently didn’t know Jack Ruby, because I thought everybody on the paper knew Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?
Mr. KANTOR. I was mightily surprised and could not believe what I had heard for a moment. And then I asked Bob if he knew Jack, and he said no. I felt that--I guess my inclinations were as a newspaperman, and I felt I wanted to get to Ruby as fast as possible and question him. And I tried to get through to the jail office area, but there was no chance. We were held there until Oswald was placed in the ambulance right in front of where we were standing, and taken out. Then we were allowed to proceed up to the third floor, and there we waited for close to 2 hours outside of Curry’s office without any word of any sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you interview anybody in the 2 hours that you were standing outside of Curry’s office?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I spoke to Billy Combest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?
Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to another police officer--I don’t recall his name--who had been down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any rumors while you were standing outside of Curry’s office as to how Ruby had gotten into the basement?
Mr. KANTOR. No; there was no speculation. I do recall some conversation among reporters who had seen him on Friday night at the assembly room, when I had not seen him. And I was surprised to learn that Ruby had been there at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember the names of the reporters you talked to who saw him in the assembly room Friday night?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, there was one reporter in particular whose name I have in my notes at home. He was a radio reporter from New York City. I am afraid that I just cannot recall his name at this moment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you do have some notes at home. Have you retained all or substantially all of your notes from the 3 days that you were in Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. I have kept all my written notes, and then everything was so vivid when I returned that within about 3 weeks or so after I was back I got a tape recorder and talked about 10,000 words into it, which I had not written down, and which I then transcribed by typewriter, and I have those, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do your notes reflect your activities at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show any times?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe they do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes reflect your interview with Billy Combest?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe that my handwritten notes would show that I talked to Jack Combest, after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they show what Combest said?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they reflect----
Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure about the detail. It may have been just a few words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I also understand that you interviewed George Senator on November 24, is that right?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I was about to mention that while we were waiting for Chief Curry to come out of his office, a man arrived just outside the third floor elevator with--I am sorry, I am really going blank on names--with the entertainment columnist for the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Tony Zoppi?
Mr. KANTOR. Tony Zoppi--thank you. That is right. And then the first reaction was sort of one of amusement because Zoppi looked like an entrepreneur of a new event. And I went over. However, there was a large circle of people around George Senator, and I listened to what I could hear, and then moved back to my place which happened to be first in line outside the chief’s office, and I didn’t want to give that up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you listen to Senator?
Mr. KANTOR. Perhaps 3 or 4 minutes. But I got there right at the tail end, because a couple of plainclothes officers came out and removed Senator, and insisted that he should not be talking to the press.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody else you interviewed on the 24th?
Mr. KANTOR. Zoppi came out with a pool report on Jack Ruby’s sister, which a number of reporters listened to and took notes on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were actually interviewing Zoppi at that point?
Mr. KANTOR. That is strictly what it amounted to. I spoke to Captain Will Fritz. I spoke to Captain Glen King. But I might add that from the moment that Oswald was shot, we were really cut off. We were getting no more news--whereas we had gotten from our standpoint marvelous cooperation before--we were finding out nothing all of a sudden.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear Senator say in the few minutes that you did listen to him?
Mr. KANTOR. I heard George Senator say that Jack Ruby had been upset, very much upset, and had gotten up, I believe, rather late Sunday morning and said that he was going to take one of his dogs down to the club. And I heard him say that he had--that Jack Ruby had placed a call to a brother in Detroit. And I remember Senator stressing quite heavily that Ruby had spent the weekend in an upset condition, had cried, had wept quite a bit. I did ask Senator, only because I think I missed the opening parts of the mass interview going on out there in the hall--I asked him how long he had roomed with Ruby, a couple of particulars like that, I think--just basic stuff. What he did for a living.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----
Mr. KANTOR. I had never heard of him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. About what time did you arrive in the jail basement on Sunday, the 24th?
Mr. KANTOR. The transferral, as we understood it, was supposed to be made at 10 o’clock. And I got up leisurely and was staying at the White Plaza Hotel across the street, and made no effort to be there promptly at 10 o’clock. The reason I did that is because Scripps-Howard wire to its newspaper operates at night, and a morning event in itself is not too awfully important.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there before the shooting took place?
Mr. KANTOR. I got there about approximately a quarter to 11. I was checked three times for identification upon getting down to the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement, did you remain the entire time in that position “K” that you have marked there?
Mr. KANTOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first went into the basement?
Mr. KANTOR. The regular bank of elevators, that is those going upstairs----
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the Harwood side?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; are about here, are they not?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; the reporter, of course, can’t tell, but just let’s refer to them as the Harwood elevators.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I walked into the building and went up to the third floor first, and then rode the elevator down to the basement--that is the regular elevator. When I stepped out of the elevator, I was stopped almost immediately by an officer, and he would not accept my credentials at all, even though I had a White House card and my old Dallas police card, Texas State Police card.
Some detective, I don’t know who, came over and looked at my credentials and said that they were okay. And I went into the jail office, and took up a position along the west wall. There is a counter--there was a counter opposite me on which a camera was set up, as I recall, and there were a handful of other reporters in there. And Captain Jones at about 11:15 walked in briskly and said that we all would have to leave.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?
Mr. KANTOR. Fenley and I were together, and I told Fenley to delay leaving as long as possible because it appeared that they were ready to move Oswald, and maybe if we tarried long enough, we could still be in there. But it didn’t work. And though we moved slowly--we moved down the line of people who were along here, and took up a position about here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you mark a “1” there at your first position.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain at position 1?
Mr. KANTOR. We just walked into that position and they pulled out a couple of police cars, one of which was directly behind where I was standing, and, therefore, causing me to move over here, where it was rather crowded, along the post.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those police cars go that they moved out?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, as I recall--there may have been three, but I am not sure--one went to the Commerce Street ramp side and one pulled in front of us facing Main Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that car that was facing Main Street, did it stop, or did you see it go up the Main Street ramp, or what, or don’t you remember?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I don’t remember how many cars were involved. There was a car which pulled out and stopped directly in front of us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a car driving up the Main Street ramp?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t now; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you in the police building on Friday night?
Mr. KANTOR. Until approximately 2:30 in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive that evening or afternoon?
Mr. KANTOR. I went directly from Love Field after the President’s plane took off, and got there about 4 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you remain there continuously, from 4 until 2:30?
Mr. KANTOR. Without a break.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much of that time was spent up on the third floor?
Mr. KANTOR. The entire time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attend the press conference Henry Wade had with Chief Curry in the assembly room?
Mr. KANTOR. I am sorry. I did go down there after midnight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have notes of that press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I had a lot of trouble hearing, first of all--a lot of trouble hearing Oswald. I picked up a couple of words he was muttering. I was standing on a table about halfway back in the room. And then immediately following that, I guess Henry Wade had a conference. Is that what you are referring to?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know--I guess I have got a couple of notes on it. I don’t know how extensive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period you were in the city hall or the police department building on Friday night, did you see Jack Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. Never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the police department building on Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period were you in there on Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. I was in the building between 10 a.m., and about 9:15 p.m., or perhaps a little bit later in the evening. However, I did leave the building a couple of times to go across the street for food.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Jack Ruby at all on Saturday?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I did not see him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you would like to ask?
Mr. HUBERT. I think you better clarify about the second automobile that pulled up. I got the impression, as you testified, that the front of the second car was headed toward Main Street. Is that correct?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection it was, because I had explained to Mr. Griffin that I remember an officer coming over the top of the car and bounding down to the hood and then off.
Mr. HUBERT. But the first car that pulled up headed toward Commerce Street?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I wish I could be certain about it, but I am not sure of the order. I was mostly aware at that moment that it was apparent that Oswald was about to be moved, and that I was being shoved a little bit to make room for these cars to get out, and that I wanted a good vantage point. And I think that was my chief concern.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that you were in the assembly room at the time Oswald was brought down to see the press, and that you were standing on a table, I think, at the rear, and that you did not see Ruby in that room at all.
Mr. KANTOR. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone make any comment to Wade concerning the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or correct a statement that Wade made in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? Well, let me put it this way: Did you hear Wade make any comment with respect to a Cuban committee at all?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe that there was. I don’t think I took notes on this. Our Latin American correspondent called from Miami early in the evening and had talked about this matter to me. I do vaguely recall some conversation involving Henry Wade on that matter, and I don’t think----
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection at present that Henry Wade made a comment about some Cuban committee?
Mr. KANTOR. I don’t remember whether he was asked specifically about this, or whether he brought it up. But I do vaguely recall there was some conversation about it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then did you hear someone correct his designation or, rather, the name of the committee?
Mr. KANTOR. It almost seems as though I did. I could not swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room?
Mr. KANTOR. It was very crowded. I would estimate about 60, perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. And how large was the room?
Mr. KANTOR. I would say about 25 or 30 yards long, and about 10 to 12 yards wide, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you at the back of the room?
Mr. KANTOR. I was in approximately the middle of the room, standing on a table, which did put me in a position of being more to the rear of the group.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone else standing on a table?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; quite a few were standing on tables. Photographers took up choice positions immediately in front of Oswald, as he was led in. In order both to hear and see I think the majority of people were standing on tables.
Mr. HUBERT. I have no further questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first report to your newspaper that you had seen Ruby at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Again, I telephoned Charles Egger at about 1:30 Sunday afternoon, told him that I was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, and had seen him at the hospital. He said, “That sounds like a pretty good story for tomorrow.” I waited until sometime during the evening to write it simply because we didn’t know what was going to happen next.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notify any police department officials that you had seen him at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. No; as a matter of fact, I wrote it in my story, and never said a word to anybody beyond that.
An FBI man asked me about it about 5 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Kantor, would you look over the two diagrams we have been talking about, Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2, and if those are correct in terms of what we have been talking about, would you sign them?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I would be happy to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And please date it, also.
Mr. KANTOR. Surely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Kantor has signed Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 and dated them.
The taking of the deposition is recessed until a time tomorrow afternoon to be arranged to suit the convenience of Mr. Kantor.
TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR RESUMED
The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 5:10 p.m., on June 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the outset let me ask you if it is agreeable with you that the oath and the formalities which we went through originally yesterday will continue to prevail at this point in the deposition, that you understand it is a continuation.
Mr. KANTOR. I understand I am still under oath.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine. When we recessed yesterday we had asked you to check on certain notes and documents. I want to ask you before we get into that, however, one final question in respect to what we did cover yesterday, and I want to ask you to search your mind and tell us what doubts, if you have any, that you might have that the man who you have identified as Jack Ruby, Parkland Hospital on November 22 was indeed Jack Ruby.
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I would like to say that a little more than 6 months have passed and I think I have doubted almost anything in searching my memory which has happened over a period of 6 months or more in my lifetime. I think if you think about something a good deal you wonder whether it actually happened.
However, I was indelibly sure at the time and have continued to be so that the man who stopped me and with whom I talked was Jack Ruby. I feel strongly about it because I had known Jack Ruby and he did call me by my first name as he came up behind me, and at that moment under the circumstances it was a fairly normal conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any acquaintances that you had in Dallas while you were there, who you in the past had mistaken for Jack Ruby? Have you ever had the experience of seeing somebody else and mistaking him for Jack Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. I see what you mean. No; that never occurred at any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know people in Dallas who ran some of the other nightclubs?
Mr. KANTOR. I had met Mr. Barney Weinstein who operates at least a couple of strip joints that I know of, and that was on one occasion when I was doing a story on a stripteaser named Candy Barr and that occasion was when I was going down to the State prison where she was living at the time to do a story on her for the paper and that was the only time I had met Mr. Weinstein.
However, there is a booking agent in Dallas whose nickname is Pappy, I have his name in my notes here somewhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pappy Dolson?
Mr. KANTOR. D-o-l-s-o-n, that is right. I had done a story on him, and he was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, I knew, and then I saw him while I remained in Dallas after the assassination, spoke to him and interviewed him for a story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do either Weinstein or Dolson bear any resemblance to Jack Ruby?
Mr. KANTOR. None. None, nothing that close that I would mistake them. Neither one, I don’t believe, either, would stop me in the passageway of the hospital after I had been gone for a year and a half and call me by my first name. I don’t think they would remember me that easily or have any special reason to call me by my first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have brought a series of papers and notebooks with you. Can you work from these one at a time, can you tell us what you have there?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Initially, I have the notebook I took down with me to Texas from Washington while accompanying the President, and in it are the notes of the trip.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me look at it a second.
Mr. KANTOR. Sure, I was just going to recommend you skip the first page. Those were notes I made on the plane going down. From then on anything you want to look at is fine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The notebook that you handed me is a notebook that is a long stenographic type notebook. I would say it is 8 inches long and perhaps 3 to 4 inches wide.
Mr. KANTOR. It sounds reasonable, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And it has the label “EFF-JAY Notebook” and it is put out by Fox-Jones Co., Washington 5, D.C., and No. 1419 and there is handwritten on the front of this in pencil “President Kennedy’s Trip to Texas, November 21–22, 1963.”
Does anything in this notebook pertain to your activities at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; several pages in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you indicate, can you find in here the pages that pertain to that Parkland Hospital episode?
Mr. KANTOR. I am going to have to apologize for the writing here. Among other things in addition to being a bad scribbler I did much of this on the run, these pages.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t mind I would like to look at them and see again if I can ask some questions from them. Do the notes on the pages which you have separated here follow in chronological order? Is there any way you can tell from looking at these notes when, what time you would have put it down?
Mr. KANTOR. Pretty well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us what portion of those notes you made before the actual press conference with Malcolm Kilduff, if any.
Mr. KANTOR. On this page there are written some idle notes as we moved from Love Field into the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about notes made at Parkland Hospital.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and then starting here, these notes were made immediately outside the hospital as I stood outside talking with Senator Yarborough, and these--from this point on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the bottom of the page of the “Yarb” notes?
Mr. KANTOR. Correct. From that point on--the top of that page to the bottom of the following page I made no notes--which would be approximately a half hour while I was on the telephone and talking in the hallway to the Texas Congressman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The notes which start on the page which said “JFK died at approximately 1 p.m.” Where was that notation made?
Mr. KANTOR. It was made in the makeshift pressroom of the second floor where Malcolm Kilduff led us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is one page you refer to here which starts out, “Yarborough--third car back” and winds up with some notes at the bottom of page--which I won’t attempt to read, not because your writing is any worse than mine but just to save time here for the moment, those notes were all made before the press conference but were made at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do they--do all of these notes represent things which were told you while you were at Parkland Hospital or do they represent things that you might have learned even before arriving at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I am reading this as you were talking, and everything here was gained in conversation with Senator Yarborough standing outside the emergency area of the hospital. That is true, that is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Having had a chance to look at those notes again and thinking about our conversation during the last couple of days--is there any indication from those notes that you knew or had a strong idea prior to the time Kilduff gave this press conference that President Kennedy was not going to survive?
Mr. KANTOR. No. I don’t know whether it was a matter of not wanting to accept the strong possibility, but really until I went into the hospital and saw the priest in the hallway and the look on Lady Bird Johnson’s face, I had no strong premonition about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see the priest and Lady Bird Johnson before the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I did, while I was on the telephone talking to my office in Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. By the time you got off the telephone what was your--and having seen Lady Bird Johnson and the priest and so forth?
Mr. KANTOR. I still didn’t know that the President had been hit in the head, and when Congressman Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been brought in, I knew then that he had been hit in the head but I didn’t know until that point even where he had been hit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have had a chance, I suppose, to talk with other newspaper people and other people who were present at Parkland Hospital since this event, have you not?
Mr. KANTOR. Not in depth. I have had some conversations with people who were there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversations with people who were there, have you gained any information that those who were in the area around Parkland Hospital attentive to what might be going on, had an idea or believed that the President was dead before the announcement was made by Mr. Kilduff?
Mr. KANTOR. Well, I am sure I have not asked anybody outside of a couple of Congressmen I have talked to since then who were a lot closer to the situation than I obviously was at that time, and they really knew what was going on. And I haven’t asked anyone, I guess I felt no reason to ask and I don’t recall anyone volunteering that they specifically believed the President was moribund.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to push you into saying something----
Mr. KANTOR. I am not aware of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes here--do you have any notes here which reflect your observations in the Dallas Police Department from the time you arrived there until the time you left Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us in here where those notes are?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Just any and all in the police station?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KANTOR. Right. Where you have placed the marker here is the extent of notes taken in the police station between Friday afternoon, November 22 and Sunday evening, November 24.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask a few questions about the notes. I notice that you have made the notation and I will read it, “Ruby asked question Friday night at press conference.” Do you remember making that notation?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who told you that or how you came to learn that?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. I mentioned yesterday that there was a radio reporter from New York City whose name escaped me and I believe I----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have that name now?
Mr. KANTOR. I believe I have it in my notes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. KANTOR. The name of the reporter as I have it in here in these notes is Ike Pappas. And--do you want me to read to you what I have here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is the most accurate thing you can give us.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This is what I recalled from memory as soon as I got back from Dallas and read into the tape recorder and this is the way I wrote it down from that. This describes the meeting in the assembly room, in the police assembly room, shortly after Friday night going into Saturday.
“Sunday afternoon District Attorney Henry Wade was to say to the press that Jack Ruby was present Friday night during that strange press conference. I understand or I am told.
“A New York City radio reporter, Ike Pappas, corrected Henry and said that he, Pappas, had been talking with Ruby in the assembly room and Ruby had given him a card and had invited him to be his guest in the Carousel when it reopened. Pappas still carried the card in his wallet; said that he brought Ruby over to the District Attorney and that the D.A. seemed to know Mr. Ruby. Henry smiled but gave no answer, after first saying that Ruby was mistaken for being a reporter.”
The time which I referred to here that Mr. Wade smiled was when Ike Pappas reminded Henry Wade on Sunday that he had talked to Ruby on Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you saying there that Pappas learned from Wade or that you learned from Wade that Ruby had interrupted him, interrupted Wade at the press conference?
Mr. KANTOR. It wasn’t so much that I learned it. This was an announcement made by Wade Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening in that same police assembly room to a gathering of reporters among whom I was present in which he said that he understood that Ruby had been present Friday night, and then Ike Pappas said, “You know that he was present because the three of us were talking.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What is the reference that you had in there. I thought I understood the reference in there that Ruby interrupted Wade at some point in the press conference. Is that written in there or did I hear it incorrectly?
Mr. KANTOR. I think that is something you asked me about yesterday, wasn’t it, about an interruption of which I wasn’t sure?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we do this: I am going to mark the pages that we are going to photostat here with separate exhibit numbers on your book, and then, if I may, have these pages photostated, and give you the complete notebook back because we are going to take the full notebook. In other words, I would like to write down at the bottom of the page a number, if I could.
Mr. KANTOR. You mean you want to remove the page?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we are not going to remove the page, but I would like to put a notation on your notebook, with your permission.
Mr. KANTOR. All right; please go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark the cover of this notebook in the following manner: “Seth Kantor, Deposition June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 3, June 3, 1964, for identification.)
Mr. KANTOR. May I say something off the record?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the page “Yarb-third car back,” I will cross out where I have written the identification in full and I will write “3-A,” so that we are correct here. Does this page which I am pointing my finger to, is that a note that was taken at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KANTOR. At approximately 1:30 during the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, could you find the first page in here that you believe was made at the Dallas Police Station?
I am going to mark these pages at the bottom, subletter “3-B,” “3-C” et cetera, the ones he has identified as having been made at the Dallas Police Station, so that we will have subletters in here and in the record a list of the pages which Mr. Kantor indicates were made contemporaneously with his activities at the police station.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct, Mr. Kantor?
Mr. KANTOR. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have picked out the ones that fit the definition just given by Mr. Griffin?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The last page is where I have put the paper clip.
Mr. HUBERT. We want all of them between the paper clips. I have marked all of the pages starting with 3-A, Mr. Kantor, and running through the alphabet and then starting another series of 3 using double A and double B and so forth through 3 double R, and I ask you if it is not a fact that all of these pages so marked are in your handwriting.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.
Mr. HUBERT. They were notes made by you contemporaneously with the events to which they relate?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will have these photostated and give the book back to you.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
(The documents referred to were marked Seth Kantor Exhibits Nos. 3-A through 3-RR for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Kantor, you have handed me a series of papers which seem to be in order, that is to say, pages running from 1, I think, through 19.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for identification on the first page by placing the following at the bottom: “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of Seth Kantor,” and I ask you what these documents purport to be.
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)
Mr. KANTOR. These documents are notes which I made upon my return from Dallas after spending 16 days following the assassination of the President. They are notes which, by and large, I hadn’t written down as events occurred but which I wanted to put down on paper while I still remembered everything in as great a detail as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. Were these notes which have been marked as Exhibit No. 4, made all at one time?
Mr. KANTOR. No; they were not. They were made over a 1-week period.
Mr. HUBERT. What period was that, in point of calendar date?
Mr. KANTOR. They were in December 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. They were made by you?
Mr. KANTOR. They were made by me.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you make them in fact?
Mr. KANTOR. I rented a tape recorder and spoke all of this into the tape recorder and then played the tape recorder back and wrote it down by means of typewriter.
Mr. HUBERT. So that this typing on Exhibit No. 4 is actually your own typing?
Mr. KANTOR. It is my own typing.
Mr. HUBERT. It is not a stenographer or typist?
Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; it is mine.
Mr. HUBERT. And it came from the tape, and you dictated into the tape recorder over a week’s time all of this material?
Mr. KANTOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you read this recently?
Mr. KANTOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But can you state to us that it represents your best recollection of what occurred?
Mr. KANTOR. It would be a better recollection than I could give you now on anything which transpired.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. With your permission, sir, then we will hold these, have them photostated, and return the originals to you.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Kantor, you have handed us a small Penway brand spiral-backed memo book in which there are 9 pages, each page, of course, having a front and a back, and I ask you whether the notes on those pages of this book that I have identified, and now further identify as Exhibit No. 5 of the deposition of Seth Kantor, June 3, 1964, if those notes are in your handwriting.
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 5 for identification.)
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they made contemporaneously with the events to which they refer?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously with the events.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the record shows that it has been identified as Exhibit No. 5 of your deposition. And here, again, with reference to Exhibit No. 5, we will have photostats made of the back and front of all these pages, and then return the book to you.
I notice on the first page of Exhibit No. 5 that you have the name Mrs. Michael R. Paine. Does that indicate that there was an interview with her?
Mr. KANTOR. The interview took place at her residence on the outskirts of Dallas late in the afternoon on a Thursday, one week after Thanksgiving.
Mr. HUBERT. How many pages of Exhibit No. 5 relate to notes made of the interview of Mrs. Paine?
Mr. KANTOR. Twelve pages.
Mr. HUBERT. I think, with your permission, we ought to number these pages. I will start off by numbering the first page as it appears in the book as “1” on the bottom, and then the reverse of that “2”, and I am putting these numerals in a circle, up to 12. I understand your testimony to be that the notes which appear on pages Exhibit No. 5 which have now been numbered 1 through 12 all relate to the interview of Mrs. Paine taken on the Thursday after Thanksgiving of 1963.
Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the rest of the pages as follows, by putting the numbers in a circle at the bottom, beginning with 13 up to and including 17 and ask you the relationship of those notes or those pages to any particular event.
Mr. KANTOR. They relate to notes, they are notes, that I made regarding Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the police officer in Dallas who was slain.
Mr. HUBERT. When were those notes made?
Mr. KANTOR. They were made the day after I spoke with Mrs. Paine, Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday of what----
Mr. KANTOR. This would be eight days after Thanksgiving, yes. I believe it was December 6th.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you a calendar of 1963 and ask you if it is not a fact that Thanksgiving was on the 28th of November, that Thursday after Thanksgiving would have been December 5th, and the day after that would have been December 6th.
Mr. KANTOR. That is correct, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have just referred to notes appearing on pages 12 through----
Mr. KANTOR. It is notes on pages 13 through 17.
Mr. HUBERT. 13 through 17. Are there any other notes in the book?
Mr. KANTOR. No; none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you go ahead and read those interview reports that you have in your hands right now and then we can talk about them.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show I am placing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second and subsequent pages of Exhibit 4.
Let the record show, also, that I have placed my initials on the inside cover of Exhibit No. 5 and at the bottom of each page of Exhibit No. 5.
Let the record also show that I am placing my initials on each of the pages of Exhibit No. 3 at the bottom, Exhibit No. 3 consisting of a series of pages numbering 3-A through the alphabet and again until 3-RR.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you, Mr. Kantor, what has been marked for purposes of identification as “Washington, D.C., Seth Kantor Deposition, June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 6.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 6 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This purports to be a copy of a report prepared by FBI Agent Vincent E. Drain, of an interview he conducted with you on December 3, 1963, in Dallas. I will hand it to you and ask you if you have had a chance to read it and whether you have any additions or corrections that you would make to that report from the standpoint of accuracy of the report.
Mr. KANTOR. No; it is complete, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am also going to hand you what has been marked as “Exhibit No. 7, Washington, D.C., Seth Kantor Deposition, June 3, 1964.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 7 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Mr. Drain in connection with an interview conducted with you in Dallas also on December 3.
Have you had a chance to read this report?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I have just looked it over, and it is, to the best of my knowledge, accurate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark another document as “Exhibit No. 8, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, Seth Kantor Deposition.”
(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 8 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. This document purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agents Kaiser and Miller, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the interview taking place with you on January 2, 1964 here in Washington. Have you had a chance to look that over?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any changes that you would make in that?
Mr. KANTOR. There was something I thought I saw in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your time.
Mr. KANTOR. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Meanwhile, for the record, that Exhibit No. 7 is a document which consists of 5 pages and it is numbered consecutively at the bottom 431 through pages 435.
Mr. KANTOR. I have seen something in here which made me think of a letter I have received since the occasion of this interview with the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead and tell us about it.
Mr. KANTOR. The letter was from Jack Ruby, from the county jail in Dallas. I wrote him approximately at the end of January from my office, on Scripps-Howard stationery, telling him that I had made a couple of attempts to see him in Dallas, both in the city jail and in the county jail, and had failed, and asked him if I could ask him some questions. A letter postmarked February 2, I believe it was, in San Francisco, was received by me then from Melvin Belli, who was Ruby’s attorney at the time, thanking me for writing to Jack and saying that he had told Jack to forward on any mail that came from reporters, and that Jack had done the right thing and that he was sure--he being Belli--that I would understand that Ruby could not comment before the trial.
Then I received a letter postmarked the next day which would have been February 3d, from Ruby, from his Dallas county jail cell, telling me he had forwarded on my letter to Belli and apologizing for having done so but he was told to do that. And in the letter he made an offhanded personal remark that he had liked to follow my stories in the Fort Worth Press, which is a Scripps-Howard paper, and was in hopes of seeing me again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you in your letter to Ruby made any reference to the fact that you had seen him at Parkland Hospital on the 22d?
Mr. KANTOR. No; I did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Belli in his letter to you make any reference to your newspaper article?
Mr. KANTOR. No; he did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Ruby didn’t make any reference to it to you in his letter?
Mr. KANTOR. No; he did not, and one of the factors prompting my letter to him was this interview with the two FBI agents here in Washington, because one of them had told me that the FBI talked to Ruby in his jail cell and he had denied being in the hospital on the afternoon of November 22d. This is really what I was angling for, although I didn’t want to write that question directly to Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that in the story that you had seen Jack at the Parkland Hospital, had been made public before you wrote to Jack Ruby, I think you said on February----
Mr. KANTOR. Late in January.
Mr. HUBERT. Late in January?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That story had been in the press for some considerable time, isn’t that correct?
Mr. KANTOR. It appeared in the press the day after Ruby killed Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think the record should show that Exhibit No. 8 consists of 4 pages, numbered in sequence 163 through 167.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you at least one question in connection with these interviews generally. Did the FBI agent who originally interviewed you on December 3 tell you how he happened to come to interview you?
Mr. KANTOR. He had learned about my statement of Ruby being in the hospital through reading my story or through hearing about the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this something that he told you or is this an inference that you have drawn?
Mr. KANTOR. No; he told me that. I know the agent in question, Vince Drain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you told us yesterday that you were the only Scripps-Howard reporter at Parkland Hospital at the time that you saw Ruby and made the phone calls.
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many other Scripps-Howard reporters were there with the White House entourage that originally went down to Dallas?
Mr. KANTOR. There was none besides myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many Scripps-Howard reporters who reported back to the Washington office ultimately were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th?
Mr. KANTOR. There was none besides myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the only--you were the only representative of the Scripps-Howard chain as an entity?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And any other reporters who may have been connected with Scripps-Howard there were from newspapers affiliated with the Scripps-Howard chain?
Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of coverage or distribution were the stories that you wrote on the 22d and 23d given by the Scripps-Howard chain?
Mr. KANTOR. They were widely used, I believe; virtually every paper in the chain used the stories.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Hubert?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have none. Do you have anything further that you would want to say?
Mr. KANTOR. Nothing further.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.
Mr. HUBERT. We will have those photostated and if you could call in some time tomorrow we will see if we can’t arrange to get them to you, or mail them, or do something.
Mr. KANTOR. If you don’t mind, I would like to pick them up, but wonder if I could pick them up Friday.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM D. CROWE, JR.
The testimony of William D. Crowe, Jr., was taken at 2:30 p.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Mr. William D. Crowe, Jr., who also uses the professional or stage name of Bill DeMar.
Mr. Crowe, my name is Leon D. Hubert and I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 issued by President Johnson on November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Crowe, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald or the relationship that there might have been between Oswald and Ruby and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Crowe, you appear today, I believe, by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
Mr. CROWE. Friday; Friday, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 29th of May, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice you are looking at an envelope. Is that the envelope?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That it came in?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the post date on it?
Mr. CROWE. That is what I am looking for. It has no post date. The thing is blank.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of the letter itself?
Mr. CROWE. May 28; so it must have been the 29th.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you received it on the 29th, last Friday. Is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now would you please stand, sir, so I may administer the oath. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CROWE. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name for the record, please, sir?
Mr. CROWE. William D. Crowe, Jr.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crowe, I understand that you also have a stage or professional name that you have been using for some time and still do use, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that name?
Mr. CROWE. Bill DeMar.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have never actually legally changed your name from William Crowe to Bill DeMar, have you?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And by legally changed your name, I mean a court proceeding to change your name officially from Crowe to DeMar?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This is purely a stage name?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, Mr. DeMar?
Mr. CROWE. Right now at 90 West 34th Street, Bayonne, N.J.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. CROWE. Thirty-two.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been married?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mind stating for the record who you were married to and when, and the date of the divorce?
Mr. CROWE. Her maiden name was Golden Thompson.
Mr. HUBERT. T-h-o-m-p-s-o-n; is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry this lady?
Mr. CROWE. November 22, 1959, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. And where were you married?
Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, Ind.
Mr. HUBERT. Evansville. Is your----
Mr. CROWE. Home town.
Mr. HUBERT. That is where you were born and educated and reared, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced?
Mr. CROWE. Around, I think it was around, February of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And where?
Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, Ind.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been married to anyone other than this lady?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?
Mr. CROWE. One.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of that child and how old is he?
Mr. CROWE. William D. Crowe, the 3d, and he is four and a half approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. Has your wife remarried?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; she has.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of her husband?
Mr. CROWE. Larry Kuence.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?
Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, I don’t know the address for sure, on the north side some place.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr. CROWE. Entertainer.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that line of endeavor?
Mr. CROWE. Off and on for 15 years.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you were 32.
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you have been in the entertainment field since you were 17 years old?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What educational background do you have?
Mr. CROWE. High school graduate.
Mr. HUBERT. And immediately after leaving high school, I suppose you got into the entertainment business?
Mr. CROWE. No; well, yes. I started during right before the senior year, and then I went into the service for 3 years after high school.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. CROWE. In 1951.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was after you left the service that you entered the entertainment field?
Mr. CROWE. I continued with the entertainment field. I did it while I was in the service also.
Mr. HUBERT. You did it there also; I see. Have you ever had a partner in any of your acts or entertainment endeavors?
Mr. CROWE. No; not really.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us by way of description what sort of entertainment act you have done in the past?
Mr. CROWE. Primarily a ventriloquist; also do a little standup comedy, impressions.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you name for the record some of the places that you have played in--is that the professional term--or appeared in?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I have been over a great part of most of the United States and around Germany, and Western Canada and Eastern Canada. Like the T-Bone Supper Club in Wichita. Let’s see, the Larue Supper Club in Indianapolis, the Orchid Club in Tulsa. Club dates in Seattle, Washington, Atlanta, Georgia, New York.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suppose that you have an agent, don’t you, who does your booking for you?
Mr. CROWE. Several agents. Depending on what part of the country.
Mr. HUBERT. You are also a member of the----
Mr. CROWE. American Guild of Variety Artists.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose they have a record actually of every show or place that you have been don’t they?
Mr. CROWE. I would imagine possibly they do.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you developed any particular specialty of late?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I have several gimmicks, I call them, that I feature in my vent act. That would be about all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you were playing at the Carousel Club in Dallas shortly before the death of President Kennedy, isn’t that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been there before?
Mr. CROWE. Three times before.
Mr. HUBERT. You have. Would you state the times that you have been there, just roughly the approximate times, and the approximate length of each stay?
Mr. CROWE. Let’s see, about April of 1962 I was there for 2 weeks, and then I was gone for about 7 weeks, came back for 3 weeks, and was out for maybe a month. Came back for 4 weeks, was gone for about a year, and 2 months, and came back for 6 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you come back to the Carousel the last time?
Mr. CROWE. About the 1st of November.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that booking done by yourself or some agent of yours?
Mr. CROWE. Well, it was more by myself but it was a club that belonged to an agent of mine so I paid him a commission to keep on the interest.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say the club belonged to an agent of yours you don’t mean that he owned the club?
Mr. CROWE. No; the agent booked it.
Mr. HUBERT. He owned the right to book you there, is that it?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you paid him a normal fee for booking at that place even though you arranged to go yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Between Jack Ruby and myself, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to go back to Jack Ruby’s club?
Mr. CROWE. I didn’t, but Jack can be pretty persuasive at times, and because I had been there so many times before, and the agent said that I would possibly go up to Kansas City but it wouldn’t be for a week or more.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that agent?
Mr. CROWE. Wayne Keller in St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?
Mr. CROWE. St. Louis.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. CROWE. A week’s out of work you know, is a couple of hundred dollars, so----
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you at the time that he advised you of that?
Mr. CROWE. At the T-Bone in Wichita.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when he told you that he had another booking for you elsewhere, but it would be a week, what happened next?
Mr. CROWE. I told Jack I would go ahead and come down to his place.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack had contacted you at the T-Bone?
Mr. CROWE. He had called me at the T-Bone.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before? How long before you actually went to Jack’s Carousel Club had he called you inviting you to come?
Mr. CROWE. Four days.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it arranged then as to how long your booking would be there?
Mr. CROWE. No; nothing definite. I said 4 or 5 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no written contract, did you?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall whether I wrote the contract before I went down or after I got there.
Mr. HUBERT. But there was a written contract?
Mr. CROWE. There was a contract, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would have a copy of that? Would you?
Mr. CROWE. I would have a copy of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have it in fact?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; but not on me.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose it is a standard contract?
Mr. CROWE. Standard AGVA.
Mr. HUBERT. What is it?
Mr. CROWE. American Guild of Variety Artists.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the word you used?
Mr. CROWE. Standard AGVA.
Mr. HUBERT. Standard AGVA form. What was the agreed price?
Mr. CROWE. $182.50.
Mr. HUBERT. Per week?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin?
Mr. CROWE. It was about 2 weeks before that eventful weekend. That was on the 22d.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day of the week that you began. Perhaps it would help you if you would look at this calendar of 1963, which--do you have a calendar of 1963?
Mr. CROWE. I am not sure, I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what day of the week you would normally begin?
Mr. CROWE. Monday would be, the 11th.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you began on Monday, November 11, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the fact that it was Armed Services Day or Armistice Day, as it used to be called, assist your recollection that it was that day? I mean, is there any doubt about the fact----
Mr. CROWE. Was that Armistice Day?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, November 11.
Mr. CROWE. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it this way, is there any doubt in your mind that that is the day you started, on the 11th?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How many telephone calls do you suppose you got from Ruby in connection with this last engagement?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, maybe three.
Mr. HUBERT. Those would have been to the T-Bone Hotel at Wichita?
Mr. CROWE. No; there was no T-Bone Hotel.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the place?
Mr. CROWE. The T-Bone Club. It was at the motel where I was staying.
Mr. HUBERT. What motel was that?
Mr. CROWE. I think it was “El” something, I don’t recall. Right around the corner there. It began with an “E”.
Mr. HUBERT. It was near the T-Bone Club, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right. El Morocco maybe, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. When did the engagement which began on November 11, end in fact?
Mr. CROWE. Right before Christmas, which was about, let’s see--do you have a calendar again?
Mr. HUBERT. Here is a calendar of 1963 again. Let me put it this way: Did your engagement last for the entire period that you contracted for?
Mr. CROWE. Longer.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. And your thought is that you left on the 21st of December?
Mr. CROWE. Twenty-first.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us in general what contacts you had with Jack Ruby during the period of November 11 through the 22d or the 22d of November, to the day that the President was shot?
Mr. CROWE. Well, outside of seeing him in the club when he was there, and going to breakfast with him once in awhile after working hours, that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas?
Mr. CROWE. At that time I was at the Palomino Hotel on Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you choose that place yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I had stayed there previously.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from your statement that your contacts with Ruby were limited to a few breakfasts that you had with him?
Mr. CROWE. That is about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, I suppose it would have been simply business conversations, or were there any business conversations?
Mr. CROWE. The only thing, about the only thing Jack ever spoke of was the club, one club or the other.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on these occasions when you went to breakfast, what did he discuss, if you recall?
Mr. CROWE. Business, money, the show itself, the band, the girls.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, when you say breakfast, I assume you mean the meal that you took after the club closed about 2 o’clock in the morning, is that correct.
Mr. CROWE. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you normally go?
Mr. CROWE. There was no normal, whatever suited his fancy.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you the twistboard operation that he was interested in?
Mr. CROWE. No; he mentioned, I know he had one there that he was giving away as a prize.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not the master of ceremonies, were you?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were. In addition to the act you had, you were also master of ceremonies?
Mr. CROWE. I introduced the other acts, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you did some acting yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the names of some of the other employees or performers at the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. You want the performers or the employees?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, both. If you remember their names.
Mr. CROWE. Let’s see, at that time--at the time----
Mr. HUBERT. Of this last engagement.
Mr. CROWE. At the assassination because they had changed. At the time I came there and the time I left there were different ones.
Mr. HUBERT. They changed just within that 11-day period?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us those who were there when you first came and when they left and then which others came on afterwards?
Mr. CROWE. Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she remain the entire time you were there?
Mr. CROWE. No, no; she left a week after I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?
Mr. CROWE. No; her and Jack got into it is all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that she had some sort of an argument?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jada there then?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the T-Bone Club?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who I mean when I say Jada, do you know who that person is?
Mr. CROWE. I met her once but I have never worked with her.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?
Mr. CROWE. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she then working for Ruby?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall when you met her?
Mr. CROWE. Around November 30, maybe.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mr. CROWE. At the same time I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. 1963?
Mr. CROWE. 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. You met her after the death of the President and after the death of Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t remember the name of the club. It begins with an “M,” upstairs private club, about 3 blocks from the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. She was playing there?
Mr. CROWE. No; she was shooting a film there.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a film was that?
Mr. CROWE. A film that Diamond Pictures was making.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the subject of it was?
Mr. CROWE. A stripper in Dallas, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you part of that film?
Mr. CROWE. I did a relief, a comedy relief segment.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about the 30th of November, you say?
Mr. CROWE. Approximately, I don’t know for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. It lasted only a few days, I take it?
Mr. CROWE. A couple of days I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not met her before?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to the President’s visit to Dallas, do you recall having either discussed with Ruby the forthcoming visit or heard Ruby say anything concerning it?
Mr. CROWE. No; and the time I had known him I had never recalled ever having heard him discuss politics or anybody in it.
Mr. HUBERT. That means over this 2 or 3 years you knew him?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if I can ask a question here.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish this phase of the questioning. What was the general format of the show during the period from November 11 until the 22d, I believe. Will you describe to us briefly just how it operated, and what went on?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I came on stage and opened the show.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of opening music, for instance?
Mr. CROWE. I think we tried a show tune song but I never could sing so I didn’t do it. I always backed out every time I got on stage, I wouldn’t do it. I would start into it maybe and then I would quit and fade out or something, I would chicken out.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the band, did the band play any particular type of music to start off the show or to end it?
Mr. CROWE. Particular? Just, you know, introduction music.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did they play any type of patriotic music?
Mr. CROWE. Patriotic music?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. By patriotic I mean music like America or----
Mr. CROWE. No, no; it is a jazz combo. They wouldn’t play----
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President and where were you?
Mr. CROWE. I was in the Palomino Hotel and I first heard of it about 4 or so, 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time?
Mr. CROWE. That is when I woke up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear it, did someone tell you?
Mr. CROWE. On transistor radio.
Mr. HUBERT. No one had called you?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after hearing it?
Mr. CROWE. I did what other people did, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is what?
Mr. CROWE. Cried.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to anyone?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone? Put it this way, who was the first person you saw or spoke to after that?
Mr. CROWE. Well, let’s see. I woke up, turned on the radio, heard the news. After composure, I think I went down to the shopping center, had a bite to eat, came back, and got dressed to go down to the club and then didn’t feel like working, I didn’t think I should, but nobody had called me not to, and I got down there, and there was a sign on it, out front, you know, says “closed.”
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, about 9, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. No one from the club had called you at all?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; Andrew Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not call you?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did not?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So you just went on your way, I take it?
Mr. CROWE. If they had called me I wouldn’t have gotten dressed and went down there. No; I went down there and they had a sign on the front that said closed and I was relieved and glad. I didn’t think they should be open anyway. I drove around the block and the other two clubs were closed. So I went back home.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, go to bed?
Mr. CROWE. I think I sat and read maybe.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you see anyone or talk to anyone after returning to your apartment?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t know whether it was that night or the night after I called a friend of mine’s house, Tom Palmer. I spoke with his wife about the incident.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack Ruby at any time between the assassination of the President, and the time Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. I never spoke to or seen Jack Ruby again from Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not talk to him by phone?
Mr. CROWE. No; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know George Senator?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Breck Wall----
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was staying at the Adolphus?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Joe Peterson?
Mr. CROWE. He was a musician, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you knew Armstrong. Did you know Larry Crafard?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall the name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a young man that seemed to be working around the club there and sleeping on the premises?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him, by what name did you know him?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall, I believe his name was Larry. I didn’t know what his last name was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see or speak to any one of those persons during the period from the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. Who all did you call off again?
Mr. HUBERT. George Senator, Ralph Paul, Breck Wall, Joe Peterson, Andy Armstrong, and Larry Crafard?
Mr. CROWE. Andrew Armstrong is about the only one I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you talk to him?
Mr. CROWE. Let’s see, I called--maybe that wasn’t--Saturday, Sunday morning, there wasn’t much time, it must have been after Oswald was shot before I even spoke to Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it then, there was no contact of any sort whatsoever between you and any of those persons I mentioned, and I will mention them again so that the record can be straight: George Senator, Ralph Paul, Breck Wall, Joe Peterson, and Larry Crafard, there was no contact between you and Andrew Armstrong, no contact between you whatsoever, between the time the President was shot and the time Oswald was shot, of any sort whatsoever?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you learn that the show would not go on on Saturday?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I didn’t figure it would go on on Saturday. I wasn’t going to go down there until they called me, or somebody called me, and they knew where I was, and if I did not get a call, why I wasn’t going.
Mr. HUBERT. When was payday, when were you supposed to be paid?
Mr. CROWE. Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any inquiry Sunday about your pay?
Mr. CROWE. No; there was nobody to ask.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that you did speak to Armstrong. When did you do so?
Mr. CROWE. Monday; I believe Monday evening he called me on the phone and told me to come to work.
Mr. HUBERT. Come to work on Monday evening?
Mr. CROWE. I didn’t figure I would go in until Tuesday, I figured they would be out for a while. I think there was something in the Saturday paper that Jack Ruby had put, stated immediately that the club would be closed for 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that yourself?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Eva Grant?
Mr. CROWE. The name sounds familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Well----
Mr. CROWE. Isn’t that Jack Ruby’s sister?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; it is. Do you know her?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; in a way. I met her.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to the Vegas Club?
Mr. CROWE. Vegas Club; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been there?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever play there?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As an artist?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go there during the last engagement we have been talking about which commenced on November 11?
Mr. CROWE. Yes, yes; I did. About the week before, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go there on more than one occasion or just once?
Mr. CROWE. Maybe twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you go there with?
Mr. CROWE. Jack and a couple of girls from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the girls’ names?
Mr. CROWE. Little Lynn and there was another one, it is a redhead. Very good dancer, too. There was a joke about her name, something to do with Christmas.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be one occasion. Do you remember who you went with on the other?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I always went with Jack but I don’t know whether there was anybody else--there probably was, but I don’t recall who was along the second time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first made any announcement concerning the possibility, at least, that Oswald was in the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. Sunday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you make the observation to and how did it come about?
Mr. CROWE. To a television reporter, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?
Mr. CROWE. A newspaperman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the names of these people?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you approach them or did they approach you?
Mr. CROWE. Both. I had just parked my car at the garage right aside of the club because I went down there to see about my equipment which was in the club and I had known, from things I had heard, Jack had done what he did. I was concerned about my equipment, you know, whether I would get it out.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that you went to the club?
Mr. CROWE. Around noon, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be about a half hour after Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. About a half hour after Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear that Oswald was shot?
Mr. CROWE. I was in the office of the motel and it was on television.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. Then you became concerned about your equipment and you went immediately down?
Mr. CROWE. Down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think it was about noon when you got there. Did you have a key to get in?
Mr. CROWE. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get in?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I don’t know. I had called down there, and the line was busy, so I figured there was somebody there. But when I----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you knock when you went there?
Mr. CROWE. No; I never even got that far.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened?
Mr. CROWE. When I drove into the garage a newspaperman pulled up in front.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the Nichols Garage, the garage right next to----
Mr. CROWE. Right next, I don’t know what the name is.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hugh Reed who ran the place? All right, sir, you drove into the garage?
Mr. CROWE. And a newspaperman drove up front, and television drove up across the street, and the newspaperman, I think, and somebody else, and they started to ask the garage attendant if he knew where Jack Ruby lived, and I came forward and I said I knew where he lived, at least I thought I did, but I didn’t know he had moved, so I didn’t know actually.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you gave them an address?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I didn’t know the address but I knew how to get there.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. CROWE. And I went out with some newspaper reporter in his Volkswagen and drove out to the apartment out by the zoo where he used to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you found he was not there?
Mr. CROWE. Not there, he had moved.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mr. CROWE. I went to the television station, the newspaperman drove me by the television station, and the television man who followed us out, wanted me to stop by and talk to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did the television man want to talk to you about, do you know? Or what did you talk to him about?
Mr. CROWE. Well, they had asked me who I was, and what I had to do with the club. I told them my name, what my job was, and I had mentioned that it was quite a series of coincidences as far as I was concerned because I had been in Washington during the inaugural of the President and then being in Dallas during the assassination of the President, and then having what I had thought or recalled, to have possibly seen Oswald in the club the week before and then working for the man who shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, who did you mention that series of coincidences to?
Mr. CROWE. The newspaperman and the television man.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to the newspaperman first when you were driving out to what you thought was Ruby’s house?
Mr. CROWE. No. Another newspaperman, the one who drove up in the car, I mean the radio man.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you had left the place that you thought was Ruby’s house. In other words, what I am trying to get is the time that you first mentioned this series of coincidences, and the person to whom you mentioned it?
Mr. CROWE. At the front door of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before you left to go to the apartment?
Mr. CROWE. Before I left to go.
Mr. HUBERT. Did----
Mr. CROWE. To me it was just a series of coincidences, I never even thought anything about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reaction of the newspaperman when you told him that you thought you had seen Ruby--I mean, Oswald in Ruby’s club?
Mr. CROWE. Well, they got all excited and picked that out and started snow-balling it, and that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What are the facts concerning your possibly having seen Oswald in that club?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn’t say there was any, just facts. Like I stated before, the face seemed familiar as some faces do, and I had associated him with a patron that I had seen in the club a week before. That was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there some aspect of the story that had to do with a memory act that was supposed to be your specialty or one of your specialties?
Mr. CROWE. Well, it is one of the bits that I did to fill time, but----
Mr. HUBERT. What are the facts concerning that?
Mr. CROWE. They asked me in what--how I had seen him in the club, and I said I thought I had used him as one of the people that was--that I would use him in my memory bit.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your memory bit. Would you describe it, please, sir?
Mr. CROWE. I have 20 people cross the front, those that I can see by the stage there, and call out an object and then I have them raise their hand at random and I call the object back to them. That was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a gimmick to this or does it----
Mr. CROWE. Association.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is a special form of training; do you have to train yourself to associate?
Mr. CROWE. To a small degree.
Mr. HUBERT. What mental process do you actually go through actually to accomplish this?
Mr. CROWE. What system do I use?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. CROWE. Or how is it done?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I don’t want to get your professional secrets.
Mr. CROWE. That is what you are asking. [Laughter.]
Mr. HUBERT. On the other hand, what I am trying to get at is whether or not your memory bit, as you call it, would enable you to recognize or remember faces more than the ordinary person?
Mr. CROWE. No. No, my memory actually is no better, maybe it is as good as the ordinary persons. I know the system which is Spencer Thornton’s to use in this memory bit and I concentrate on using it, and after it is over I have forgotten.
Mr. HUBERT. I am sure you recall that the press shortly after 24th played up, snowballed, I think perhaps, as you called it, the fact that your memory act or memory gimmick as you now call it, gave you a special expertise, if it is called that, or special ability, in remembering faces that you had seen. Is that a fact or not? I mean, is it a fact that your act does give you that extra abnormal ability or not?
Mr. CROWE. No; it does not give me anything special. Using a gimmick or a method to do the memory stunt and that is it. They built up the memory thing and they built up the bit of having seen Oswald in there, and I never stated definitely, positively, and they said that I did, and all in all, what they had in the paper was hardly even close to what I told them.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell them?
Mr. CROWE. Exactly as I have just stated to you.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know that I followed you about what exactly you remembered about Oswald. I think perhaps we can better repeat it then. What did you, in fact, irrespective of what you stated to them, what did you, in fact, remember then about seeing Oswald in Ruby’s club?
Mr. CROWE. I had--it seemed to me that his face was familiar, and I had possibly seen him in the club the week before and used him in association with the memory routine that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You told that to the press?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you told it actually as one of four events which you have described as a series of coincidences?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that later you were shown a picture of Oswald, were you not?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall that. I had seen a picture in the newspaper. But I don’t recall being shown a picture.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time, didn’t they display a picture of Oswald to you?
Mr. CROWE. They may have, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your recollection concerning the identification of Oswald in Ruby’s club was when you spoke to the FBI and the agents of the Secret Service?
Mr. CROWE. That I had thought possibly I had seen Oswald the week before.
Mr. HUBERT. By the week before you mean the week commencing on the 11th?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you now or have you ever been able to fix the time of that possible event more closely than just simply the week before?
Mr. CROWE. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first occur to you that you had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. When I saw his picture in the paper Saturday or Sunday morning, I guess it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey your impression to anyone?
Mr. CROWE. Not before the radio newsman in front of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why you did not?
Mr. CROWE. I had seen no one before then. Hardly anybody to speak to.
Mr. HUBERT. I am thinking from this point of view. You tell me that you had on Saturday come to some tentative conclusion that possibly you had seen this man in the Carousel Club the week before.
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that that information could be valuable to the police?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you spoke to no one at all from the time you woke up on the afternoon of the 22d at 4 o’clock, until you met these radio people in front of the club?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, yes, I had been out at Tom Palmer’s house that Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the only person you saw or conversed with?
Mr. CROWE. Actually, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him that you had thought you had seen or it was possible that you had seen Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why not, because may I suggest to you that it would have been quite a topic of conversation. Also the coincidences that you mentioned were almost there at that time?
Mr. CROWE. I never drew up the series of coincidences until Sunday morning, because the fourth coincidence didn’t happen until then.
Mr. HUBERT. But the third one had that is to say--I guess it is the second one, the shooting of the President by Oswald.
Mr. CROWE. Yes; which was only two.
Mr. HUBERT. And your recognition that you had seen Oswald or thought you had, or it was possible that you had, in the club the week before.
Mr. CROWE. And I never put them together until Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. But you tell us now that you have a distinct recollection of having thought to yourself when you saw Oswald, Oswald’s picture in the paper that “I have seen this man and I saw him, I think, in the Carousel Club last week.” Although you didn’t convey that to anybody?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That actually occurred, that thought went through your mind?
Mr. CROWE. I would say so, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it at all possible that it first crystallized in your mind as a conscious thought when you were speaking to the radio people?
Mr. CROWE. I thought of it the whole series of coincidences, and all of it together when I was driving from my hotel to the club that Sunday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean to tell me then that prior to that time----
Mr. CROWE. I never gave it much thought.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not specifically thought that Oswald might have been in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Specifically, I never gave it too much thought. The face was familiar, and that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that if you had actually thought on Saturday that you had seen the killer of the President in the Carousel Club the week before that you would, might, have mentioned that fact to Mr. Palmer whom you visited on Saturday night?
Mr. CROWE. Not necessarily. We discussed the assassination of the President in brief, and then they taught me how to play poker and we didn’t talk about it. I didn’t care to talk about it. It was too unpleasant for me.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether or not this thought that you ultimately expressed to the newspapermen shortly after noon, I take it, on the 24th, whether that thought actually existed as a conscious mental process prior to that time or not?
Mr. CROWE. Not strongly, no. Just as a passing thought on and off, only after I had heard that Ruby had shot Oswald and I started summing up the coincidences, you know, and thinking of Oswald’s picture in the paper, and seeing it again, and putting it all together.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call a man in Evansville, Ind., I think, a friend of yours on a newspaper that day?
Mr. CROWE. David Hoy.
Mr. HUBERT. The day before?
Mr. CROWE. No; I said David Hoy.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that?
Mr. CROWE. Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you told the newspaper people about the coincidences?
Mr. CROWE. Before.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from?
Mr. CROWE. The hotel, I mean the motel. The motel I had just moved into that noon.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you saw, actually witnessed the television film of Ruby shooting Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. No; I never said that.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out?
Mr. CROWE. I was in the office checking into the motel when it came on TV and I had heard it.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. When did you speak to Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Oh, a couple minutes right after.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do so?
Mr. CROWE. Well, because he was in news and a friend of mine, you know, and I figured he would be interested in knowing if he had heard over the teletype or something.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the crystallization of these four coincidences came sooner than the time that you met the radio people in front of the club?
Mr. CROWE. That is what I said. From the time I was driving from the motel to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And you placed the call from the motel?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you called Hoy prior to?
Mr. CROWE. The crystallization of these ideas and coincidences.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you call him then?
Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time you told me the series of coincidences had not yet crystallized because they crystallized you said a moment ago after this call?
Mr. CROWE. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then what was the purpose of calling Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. And solely for that purpose?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact though, you did mention to Hoy, didn’t you, that you thought you had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Not on that call.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not?
Mr. CROWE. Not until after. I called after that. I talked to him about three or four times that day.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you talked to him three or four times after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The first call, therefore, within a couple of minutes after you heard the news on TV was simply to advise him that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at that time tell him that you thought you might have seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your purpose, you stated, for calling Hoy the first time then was simply to advise him of a fact, to wit, that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it to advise him of the fact or to converse with him about it?
Mr. CROWE. Well, him being a newsman you know call him and tell him about it if he hadn’t heard about it already.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t it occur to you that this news event was going all over the country simultaneously?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I knew it was in Dallas but I didn’t know whether it was in Evansville or not.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Whether he was watching it on television or whether he was even watching television.
Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Very well.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever called him before to give him news of this sort?
Mr. CROWE. No; I never had any news of this sort to give him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you childhood friends or something of that sort?
Mr. CROWE. No; I met him--I knew of him and he knew of me but we actually really first met about 1958, I suppose.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite certain that you did not speak to Hoy on the first call about your impression that Oswald might have been in the Carousel the week prior?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that it is possible that you may have told him that on the very first call?
Mr. CROWE. No; I mean no, I had not mentioned that to him on the first call. I have heard David Hoy state to others in front of me that I was the one that called him to tell him about Jack Ruby and what he was like and working with him. But that is all he has ever said. He has never said that I had called him and told him that I had seen Oswald in the club the week before, because I hadn’t. I hadn’t mentioned that to him until later on in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man by the name of Dale Burgess on that day who was with the radio station, I believe, or some news media in Evansville?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall the name. I spoke to a newspaperman in Evansville.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. CROWE. That same Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the time?
Mr. CROWE. No; I don’t. It would have had to have been, well, in the late afternoon, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Evansville on central standard time or eastern time?
Mr. CROWE. Central.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the time of your second call to Mr. Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, relative to the events which were taking place, considering that I think you said it was about noon, well, it was about 11:30 when you first called him and then you went down to the club----
Mr. CROWE. And then went to the----
Mr. HUBERT. Were interviewed by the newsmen and went to what you thought was Ruby’s house and came back.
Mr. CROWE. Yes; and then to the television station.
Mr. HUBERT. Television station and made a statement?
Mr. CROWE. Was interviewed there, and then went back to the motel I guess, so that would be----
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that you called Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. I guess it would be about maybe three.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of calling Hoy the second time?
Mr. CROWE. To--I don’t remember whether I did call him or he called me. I know I spoke to him. Anyway, I told him about the series of coincidences.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you had told him about that?
Mr. CROWE. That was the first time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you spoke to the other newsman from Evansville whose name you couldn’t remember?
Mr. CROWE. I would say before.
Mr. HUBERT. Then after you had talked to Hoy the second time is when you spoke to the newsman from Evansville?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I think he had the newsman call me.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are not certain whether Hoy called you or you called Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. No. There were about 3 or 4 calls going out----
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present, where did this second call take place from, where were you when you made the second call?
Mr. CROWE. Right at the motel.
Mr. HUBERT. You say there were some more calls that day between you and Hoy?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What were they about?
Mr. CROWE. He had called me once, and said that the American News, I think, or the American Broadcasting, the word American comes to my mind, had suggested that he tell me to make myself scarce or to hide out or to move and let my whereabouts not be known.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why you should take such action?
Mr. CROWE. He said that it had been expressed to him that my life would be in danger.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he thought or he had heard that your life might be in danger?
Mr. CROWE. Because I had mentioned about seeing Oswald in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say who would be interested at all in killing you for that reason?
Mr. CROWE. He didn’t know. He was just expressing what he said he had heard from another news media. And maybe they were thought friends of Jack’s, you know, or I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, you made, I think, a previous statement both to the FBI and--I think you gave an affidavit in Dallas--to the Secret Service attested by a notary public--no, by Mr. John Joe Howlett, special agent of the Secret Service. For purposes of identification, I am going to mark these two documents which I am going to show you in a moment as follows to wit, first of all, the FBI report dated November 24, or rather which purports to be a report on an interview with you on November 24th by FBI Agents Robert Lish and Emory Morton. For the purpose of identification I am going to mark this document on the right-hand margin as follows: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, signing my name below that, the document consisting of one page only. And another document which purports to be an affidavit given by you on November 25 at 1 p.m. attested by John Joe Howlett, special agent of the U.S. Secret Service with Pauline Churchill as a witness. For purposes of identification I am marking that document as follows, to wit, “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, and I am signing my name below on that.
(The documents referred to were marked Crowe Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 for identification.)
Mr. Crowe, I wish you would read both of these documents with this in mind, that I am going to ask you in a moment whether these documents represent the truth or whether there are any changes or corrections that should be made in them, and so forth. So if you would look at them and you can make notes, if you wish on this pad or just make little check marks if you see anything that represents what is now considered by you to be not true. We will go into those matters after you have had a chance to read those documents.
Mr. CROWE. Those are it; no changes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have examined the two documents which have been marked for identification as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 relating to your deposition; and I understand you now to say that those documents represent the truth as you know it, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Exhibit No. 2 is your own affidavit.
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume that you signed it--I mean you read it before you signed it?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 1 on the other hand is a report of an interview which you have not seen before, I take it, and I specifically ask you if such is a correct representation of the inquiry?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; these are the questions, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us what is your present recollection concerning whether Oswald was in the Carousel Club during the week preceding the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. Would you state the first part of the question again?
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us your present recollection concerning whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Carousel Club on the week preceding the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. From what I recall, the face appeared familiar and I possibly saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club the week before.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the lighting conditions in the club such that you could have seen him?
Mr. CROWE. To some extent. If he was sitting right at the foot of the stage.
Mr. HUBERT. If not, that is if he were not sitting right at the foot of the stage, then what?
Mr. CROWE. Then I wouldn’t have used him and I wouldn’t have seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your act required that you use the people up front in the first place?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And secondly, the lighting was such that you couldn’t have seen him if he were not in the first row; right?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that whomever you saw you thought and think might have a resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald must have been in the first row?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I might say this: Bill Willis, the drummer in the band at the club, said he seemed to remember Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in the front row on Thursday night right in the corner of the stage and the runway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this from Willis himself?
Mr. CROWE. Right. But I wouldn’t make that statement myself. But then I don’t recall the night or the exact spot.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a number of pictures which I am not going to give identifying numbers for this deposition since they have already been given identification numbers, but, for example, I now hand to you four pictures, the first two that I am going to call out being really a series of pictures--no, the first one, I am sorry, being a series of pictures, and the other three being individual pictures. These have previously been identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5206, and 5205 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, taken in Washington, D.C., on April 10, 1964.
I am going to ask you to look at these pictures and see if in any of them you see anybody that resembles the man that you may have seen there and who might look like Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. CROWE. When were these taken?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know. I would just like to ask you to examine them and see if there is anybody in there that looks like the man you used in your memory act and who was in the front row, and who you think looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. And whom you said may have been in the Carousel Club during the week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have said no after examining the picture which has been previously identified as No. 5212 of the deposition of Crafard. Now, you are looking at the picture which has been identified as Exhibit No. 5221 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you the same question as to that picture?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, your answer no is in response to the question relative to Exhibit No. 5221, deposition of Crafard. Would you look at the next picture, please, which has been identified previously as Exhibit No. 5206
Mr. CROWE. And all backs of heads.
Mr. HUBERT. In the deposition of Crafard. I am sorry, I didn’t get your answer?
Mr. CROWE. I say all backs of heads. He kind of favors it.
Mr. HUBERT. You are saying “he” and pointing. To whom are you pointing in the picture?
Mr. CROWE. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean describe it by way of position.
Mr. CROWE. Well, he is standing on stage.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say he is almost in the middle of that picture?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the microphone is right behind him?
Mr. CROWE. Right behind him.
Mr. HUBERT. He seems to have his sleeves halfway rolled up his arm?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; got a cigarette in his right hand.
Mr. HUBERT. That he seems to be leaning over a bit?
Mr. CROWE. And leaning forward.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that person resemble the person that you think you saw in the Carousel Club the week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say that. I say he favors.
Mr. HUBERT. Favors whom?
Mr. CROWE. Oswald. But I don’t recall him as being the one that I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. You think the man you just talked about in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 is not the man that you have been referring to as possibly Oswald in your previous statements to the FBI, to the press, and so forth?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But that he does bear some resemblance to him?
Mr. CROWE. Right. I could be wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at----
Mr. CROWE. Oh----
Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 5205 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you to examine that picture with the same purpose in mind.
Mr. CROWE. Yes, the second person in the foreground has some similarity to Oswald, doesn’t he?
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the man who is just left of center in the lower quadrant of that photo?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. As to whom there is pointing a little pen written arrow; is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your comment as to that man, with reference to the possibility that he is the man you saw a week before the President was shot, in the Carousel Club, and who took some part in your memory act?
Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn’t say that he was the man I saw.
Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you have to make about him then?
Mr. CROWE. He does favor Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that your comment as to the man in the picture identified as Exhibit No. 5205 is substantially the same as your comment made with reference to the man in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it stronger or weaker, that is to say, do you think the resemblance to Oswald is stronger in one picture than it is in the other?
Mr. CROWE. I would say stronger in Crafard Exhibit No. 5205. He is not smiling.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the man you have pointed out in Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206, do you recall ever having seen him in the Carousel before?
Mr. CROWE. As to him personally, I couldn’t say for sure. The clothes are not familiar to me.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed who took part in your memory act that you think might have been Oswald?
Mr. CROWE. I have no idea as to how he was dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. Your statements concerning the possibility it was Oswald therefore was based entirely on the facial----
Mr. CROWE. The face alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw Oswald in person, that is to say unless it was Oswald in the club?
Mr. CROWE. Yes; I never met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Your identification of the man in the club and the possibility he was Oswald is based, therefore, upon pictures which appeared in the paper and which the police exhibited to you, or the FBI, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now or have you ever had any recollection at any time of the position of the person who might have been Oswald in your memory act relative to other people. Do you understand what I mean? You know he had to be in the first row. Have you any recollection or have you ever had any, as to whether he was center, the left, or the right or what?
Mr. CROWE. No; they have three runways running out from the stage, and the customers are seated along and around the runways, and they can either be alone or with somebody, you would never know, you had no way of telling.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recollect whether the man who might have been Oswald was alone or was with someone else?
Mr. CROWE. No; you can’t tell the way they are seated.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, with reference to those four pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5205, and 5206 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, are you able to state that you recognize those pictures generally as being the interior of the Carousel Club?
Mr. CROWE. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present thought as to the possibility that the man that you had previously spoken about in the pictures identified as Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206 of the deposition of Crafard, may have been the man that you stated was a part of your memory act a week prior to the death of the President?
Mr. CROWE. It is a possibility.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is a greater possibility that from the pictures you have seen of Oswald that it was Oswald than that it was the man in the pictures, Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206?
Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say it was greater or any less.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, having seen the pictures of Oswald and having seen the pictures of the man in five, Exhibits Nos. 5206 and 5205, your thought is that it could have been either?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That you do not favor the identification of one over the other in terms of strength of identification?
Mr. CROWE. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any sums of money or any kind of recompense for any story or appearance you may have made concerning this matter of your having possibly seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. CROWE. Definitely not.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Crowe, that you would like to add?
Mr. CROWE. I was just taking a breath to say that the only reason why Oswald was mentioned and thought of was because of the possibility of being or that I thought he was one of a part of a series of coincidences. And the coincidences was the only thing that I had in mind.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Now, Mr. Crowe, neither I nor Mr. Griffin have ever interviewed you before the commencement of this deposition, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. That is correct, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say all of the examination or conversation or contact between us has been in this room and while the reporter was recording it, is that correct?
Mr. CROWE. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES BATCHELOR
The testimony of Charles Batchelor was taken at 1 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Chief, I understand that you appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of any deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that you may waive that if you wish, and I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you then stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Chief BATCHELOR. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, your deposition has already been taken, and therefore I will omit the usual questions identifying you and who you are and so forth.
There are certain other areas which we wish to cover, or areas which we wish to clarify, and hence the purpose of this subsequent deposition.
Do you recall what instructions, if any, you gave to Captain Talbert with regard to any type of security measures set up or to be set up?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that I gave Talbert any specific instructions.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what security instructions, I mean security measures were taken when you first arrived at the Dallas Police Department relative to the transfer of Oswald on Sunday, November 24?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, as I believe I stated in my previous deposition, when I arrived there I parked my car in the basement and shortly, just moments after I arrived, Chief Stevenson arrived. We walked into the city hall from the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was, sir?
Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere around 8 in the morning. We noticed a TV camera in the hallway leading from the vestibule of the basement into the garage of the basement, and we commented that this was going to have to be moved. We went on upstairs to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. You commented?
Chief BATCHELOR. To Chief Stevenson. We went upstairs, and shortly thereafter Chief Curry arrived, and he had noticed this camera too, and we discussed it and said we would have to get it moved. There was no one around it. It was just sitting there.
Mr. HUBERT. This was in what you call the jail corridor?
Chief BATCHELOR. Just outside the jail corridor.
Mr. HUBERT. On the ramp side of the swinging doors?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; we went back--we came, after discussing this with Chief Curry, and he told us we better go down and take a look and see what we were going to need in the way of security--we went downstairs and gave instructions, I believe, to the jail supervisor that whoever had that camera, when they showed up, to tell them they would have to move it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the decision was made that the city police would move Oswald rather than the sheriff’s office?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, Chief Stevenson and I went into the basement on two occasions seeing about the layout down there. I believe that when I told the jail supervisor to get that camera moved, that this was on the first occasion and was before, I believe--I can’t be positive of that, but I think it was before.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been decided at that time that the route to be used would be through the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, this is the normal way you take prisoners out of the jail, and I don’t think any consideration had been given to doing it any other way. It was just an assumption that this would be the way he was taken out.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the way to be used and this camera was in the way?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now if you wanted to avoid people by taking him out, it would be possible to take him off the jail elevator on the second floor or the first floor, but this is not the normal way you take prisoners out of the jail.
There is a door off the jail elevator on the first floor for the purpose of bringing prisoners down and arraigning them before the corporation courts which are on the first floor.
There is also an entrance off of the second floor and third floor of the jail elevator for the purpose of bringing prisoners down to the various bureaus for interrogation, but I don’t recall that we discussed bringing him off in this fashion.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand that at a later time you and Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson also made a general inspection?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; at that time we went down and this camera had been moved.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Chief BATCHELOR. I can’t recall exactly. I would say that it was some time between 9 and 10 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that would have been after the decision had been made that the city police department would transfer the prisoner?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after the conversation of Chief Curry with Sheriff Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present when Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff Decker?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was in his office; yes, sir. I believe I was the only one in the office with him at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you remember that it was then that the decision was made that the police department would move him?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; of course I could only understand one side of the conversation, but from the way Chief Curry was talking to the sheriff, I gathered that the sheriff had asked him if he would move him. The general procedure is for the sheriff to move prisoners.
Mr. HUBERT. But as I understand it, it is not extraordinary for you all to do it on certain occasions?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; we occasionally do it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right now, when that was learned, as I understand it, it was then that plans began to be made for your transfer of Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And I suppose it is correct to say then that previous to that time there had been no consideration made of any transfer plans since you didn’t know actually that you were going to do it?
Chief BATCHELOR. We hadn’t made any definite plans the night before, if that is what you mean. It was on that morning around 6:30 in the morning when I received a call at home to the effect that an anonymous call had come in threatening to take the prisoner away from us. This was when we really began to be concerned about some extraordinary procedures in moving him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought that you all were better equipped to handle it?
Chief BATCHELOR. We had more manpower than the sheriff would have.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you tell us just how the plans developed from that time then after the Decker call about transferring him, that you know of?
Chief BATCHELOR. This is when Chief Curry and I discussed the possibility of getting an armored truck in which to move him, and we discussed this between ourselves and decided this would probably be a safe measure.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it just you and he, or was somebody else there?
Chief BATCHELOR. I believe Chief Lumpkin came in the office at the time this discussion was going on, and I went into my office and called Mr. Fleming at his home. I had to do a little search in the city directory to see who was in charge of the Armored Motor Car Service. I called him at his home.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was?
Chief BATCHELOR. It must have been around 9 o’clock or shortly after.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time you wanted the equipment on hand?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was actually close to 10:30 when he finally called me back and said he had the equipment ready and was bringing it downtown, but I didn’t tell him any definite time, that I recall. In other words, I didn’t say we are going to move him at a certain hour. I told him we were ready to move.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you told him to get the equipment there and would use it when you had occasion to use it?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time when you called him, as a matter of fact, was the time of the transfer set?
Chief BATCHELOR. There never was a definite time set for his transfer. Even though the press announced that he would be moved at 10 o’clock, there was never an announcement made that he would be moved at 10 o’clock, that I recall.
The thing that was said was that if the press were there by 10 o’clock, we thought it would be ample, that they wouldn’t miss anything.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the fact, the controlling factor insofar as time was concerned?
Chief BATCHELOR. When the homicide bureau finished their interrogation of Oswald that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. So then when you first talked to Fleming, he was not able to tell you whether he could get it?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he said he thought he could, but he was going to have to call his people and get some drivers down there, because they were closed up on Sunday, and he said, “As soon as I get hold of them, I will call you.”
He called me twice. He called me back later and said he had the drivers and he had two trucks, one a large Overland truck which would accommodate people sitting on each side of the truck on benches, and one a smaller truck.
He recommended the larger truck because the smaller truck would only accommodate one person in the back, and of course there would be need for guards.
So then the question arose as to whether or not this truck could be backed into the basement in front of the door leading out of the jail, because there is a low point in the ramp at that point.
So he asked me if I would check and see how high that was. And I checked with Chief Lumpkin, and he told me that it was 7′5″. This was not tall enough to accommodate the truck.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Chief BATCHELOR. Then I called Mr. Fleming and told him the height and suggested that we would back the truck in on Commerce Street and not take it clear to the bottom.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you ordered the larger one only?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; he sent two. He said, “I will send you both, and you can make a determination when we get there; take the one you like.”
Mr. HUBERT. That second conversation was about 10:30 or so?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; as I recall, it must have been around 10:30. It was actually after 11 before the trucks finally got there.
Mr. HUBERT. It was after what, sir?
Chief BATCHELOR. I believe it was a little after 11 when the trucks finally got there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any way of fixing that time as to when the trucks actually got there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, the way I fix that in my mind is the lapse of time from the time the trucks arrived until Oswald finally was brought out in the basement, and this was not very long.
We backed the truck in, and I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and searched it, and got some bottles, a couple of Coke bottles, and a bolt that we found laying there, and took that out of the truck.
The truck had benches on each side with cushions on the benches. This was all that was in the truck. And it was only a short time after that until they actually brought him out. Probably not more than 20 or 30 minutes after the arrival of the trucks that they brought him down.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised of the arrival of the trucks?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement when they came, and somebody came down the ramp and told me they were out there, and I went out there and looked at them.
Mr. HUBERT. And you directed that they be backed in?
Chief BATCHELOR. That the big truck. And he backed it in and got the back wheels over the sidewalk and down the ramp, and it is a fairly steep ramp. The driver suggested that he not take it clear to the bottom.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he was afraid that he would stall the truck in coming out. It was a heavy truck and they had just taken it off of their lot. It had been sitting there all night and the motor was cold and he was afraid if he got it down the ramp and started out that he might stall, and he didn’t want to do that.
I looked the truck over. That is, I looked at the truck in relation to the walls of the ramp and found that it was so wide that there was only about a foot of space left on one side, and about 2 feet on the other.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which had 1 foot and which had 2 feet?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; the side of the truck next to the west wall----
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood Street side?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Next to the Harwood Street side it had about a foot of space, and next to the east wall, the other side, it had about 2 feet of space, and we put one man in the space between the west wall and the truck, and two men between the east wall and the truck and completely blocked the area.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who those men were?
Chief BATCHELOR. The body of the truck was actually inside the building on the ramp, and the engine and the front wheels were setting out on the level portion of the sidewalk.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the three men were that blocked the sides?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don’t recall who.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually see them being placed in position?
Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing at the foot of the ramp and saw them standing there. They were put there at my direction, but I didn’t personally direct these particular officers. I told the supervisor to put the men there. I don’t remember who that was either, but they were there.
Mr. HUBERT. And their orders were to remain there?
Chief BATCHELOR. They remained there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them there at a later time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; they were there when I started to run up the ramp and close the back door at the time they brought Oswald out.
Mr. HUBERT. The men were still there?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were still there.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t recall their names now?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was the same men, the one man guarding the 1-foot space on the Harwood Street side, and the other two guarding the 2-foot space on the other side were there right after the truck backed in and were still there just before Oswald was shot, and so far as you know, they did not move?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They were under orders to stay there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I didn’t give them their orders. They were placed there, and they were there, so I assumed that they knew to stay there.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after you left the truck, do you recall?
Chief BATCHELOR. Left the truck?
Mr. HUBERT. The armored car.
Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing in the basement after I left the truck, and went down to the foot of the ramp. There was a time that Chief Stevenson came down and whispered to me that they had a change of plans and that they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that Oswald was to be taken in an automobile with detectives.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go back up to the third floor then between the time?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not after that truck got to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the basement area at all after the truck backed in?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t recall that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then, just around in there?
Chief BATCHELOR. Around in there.
Mr. HUBERT. And Stevenson told you about the change after you had left the truck. About how much time, roughly, before the shooting?
Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, just a very short time. From the time that he told me that they had changed their plans and the time the shooting happened couldn’t have been over 10 or 15 minutes at the most.
After he told me, Lieutenant Pierce and Sergeant Putnam got a squad car and took it out the Main Street ramp to get around the city hall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that movement part of the original movement?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; that was part of the changed plan.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Stevenson tell you about that too then?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; he didn’t actually tell me about that. I saw him pulling out. I believe at that time he told me what they were doing, and then immediately after they took their car out. Two homicide detectives got two detective cars and started lining them up to go behind this truck, and one of them got in place and pulled up to the edge of the ramp, and then the other one backed his car in the place, and he had hardly stopped when they brought Oswald out.
And I was standing up toward the front of the back car, the best I remember, toward the front of the front fender, and they were still sort of jockeying these cars.
And about that time someone shouted “Here he comes”, and I looked over and saw them open the door and bring him out, and I turned and started up the ramp to close the back door on the armored truck.
No one, nobody--the truck driver nor anyone up on the ramp knew of this change of plans but the detectives involved in driving these cars.
Mr. HUBERT. And yourself and Stevenson?
Chief BATCHELOR. And myself, Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin. The rest of the men in the basement were not aware of this change of plans. He whispered this to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You realized the door had to be closed?
Chief BATCHELOR. I realized the door had to be closed and we hadn’t told anybody to close it, so as soon as they brought him out and I saw them bringing him out, I turned and started up the ramp to close the door on the truck, and that is when the shooting happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any conversation or giving any instructions with reference to the position of the press and other news media on the west side of the railing that divided the ramp from the basement?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood side of the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t follow you. There is not any Harwood Street side of the railing. The railing is on the other side of the driveway.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s right, but if you take the railing as a central point--I will put it this way. The jail side of the ramp, does that make sense to you?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which I think is really the west side of the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. West side of the ramp; yes, and it would also be west of the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any instructions or change of instructions with reference to the position of the press relative to the railing?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; Chief Curry earlier, when we had come down there and looked the situation over, had instructed that we keep all the press on the inside of the railing of the ramp. That would be east of the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. On the garage side?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. We had also instructed that the TV camera be moved out. I had instructed that.
Mr. HUBERT. Moved out of the vestibule or corridor? Chief Batchelor. Between the time Chief Curry had come down with Stevenson and me and the time I came to the basement the last time they had moved two TV cameras in behind the railing where the press was to stand.
They also had one TV camera which was on the other side of the post at the railing on the little ramp that goes down into the garage proper. This camera, as I recall it, was inoperative.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t connected up?
Chief BATCHELOR. Wasn’t connected up. So later when I came down there, there actually was not room for the press behind that railing. It was all taken up with TV cameras. And they were scattered out along the driveway across the ramp that goes into the garage proper, the little short ramp that runs east and west into the garage.
And there wasn’t enough room. Detectives were in the vestibule of the jail office coming into the basement.
It was Captain Talbert, I believe, that asked me, in view of the fact that there wasn’t enough room over there, if some of these fellows could stand across there, if we kept them back and put some men to keep them back, and I said, “Yes, this would be all right.” So they were across this ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the ramp leading up to Main Street?
Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Across the ramp leading up to Main Street. They stood from the wall over to the railing. Now there were none standing on the west side of that railing itself. This would have been in front of the cameras. They curved slightly from the wall, from the west wall of the ramp over to the railing.
Mr. HUBERT. In sort of a slight curve, sets easterly?
Chief BATCHELOR. Slightly to the south. Easterly, and slightly to the south in a very slight curve, and there were detectives standing there all along, and they didn’t move out. They held their positions there, and the press was instructed that they were not to move out or attempt to talk to Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you instruct them yourself, or did you hear someone instruct them?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, I didn’t instruct them myself, but I heard them instructed, and I can’t recall who it was that told them, it was one of the supervisors, they were to stay back and not move in when they came out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone ask for permission to occupy that space on the Main Street ramp as they did in a slightly curved line, as you indicated a moment ago?
Chief BATCHELOR. Did I hear anyone ask for permission?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Chief BATCHELOR. The supervisor asked me if this would be all right. It was Talbert, I believe, that asked me that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t hear the press people ask?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; the press people didn’t ask me that.
Mr. HUBERT. Your instructions were that it would be all right if they kept back and if the line of policemen were put in front of them, and so far as you know, it was done?
Chief BATCHELOR. That was done. There were a number of policemen along there with them, and there were not very many people along there. That is not very wide across there. I imagine about maybe 12 feet. And they were not over about two deep where one could look over another’s shoulder.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time did that happen? Was it after the armored truck arrived?
Chief BATCHELOR. They were lined up there at the time Lieutenant Pierce and the sergeant took that car out the Main Street ramp, because they had to part them to get the car through.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your conversation with Talbert about that would have been after you left the armored truck, I would think?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; not necessarily. They were standing there for some little time, because they didn’t know exactly when he was coming down. No; it was before.
If you mean after the last time I walked down to the armored truck and got down to the basement--well, it could have been, because it was some little time after I searched that armored truck, and I didn’t go back up there.
I say some little time, being probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like that. I can’t recall definitely the exact time that Talbert asked me this, but it was during the last period of time I was in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding, Chief, as to who, if any individual or group of individuals was responsible for carrying out the transfer movement?
That is to say, considering that the decision had been made by Chief Curry as to how it would be done, what route would be followed, what automobiles would be used, what personnel would be used, who was to implement that by carrying out the orders; if there was any one individual or not, then who had responsibility for the various segments?
Chief BATCHELOR. The homicide bureau was responsible for actually transferring the prisoner. This was supplemented, as far as the guards in the basement were concerned, with a large number of detectives which had been told by Chief Stevenson earlier to stand by in the bureaus for assignment in the basement, and we came down to see about security and learned that Talbert had anticipated this thing.
And Chief Stevenson talked to Talbert. They sat there in the jail office and talked a while and found out what Talbert had assigned in terms of men that he had called in to assign along the route on Main Street.
And later he changed these men. He assumed that they were going down Main Street, and he changed them, I believe, to Elm Street. Sent a supervisor down the street to tell them to move over a block.
And I came down there and found security in the basement going into the jail office. That is in the records bureau section. There were guards in there. There was a guard on the stairway that leads up to the first floor.
I came into the basement and found a large number of officers in the basement. The cars were all gone. There were not over three or four cars in the entire basement.
Chief Curry’s car had been pulled out and put on Commerce Street, double parked to lead the group, and I pulled my car up and parked it on Commerce Street west of the ramp.
His car was parked east of the ramp and mine was parked west of the ramp. Now this was done prior to the time that we knew or that I knew or I think even Chief Curry knew that there was going to be any change of plans.
We had anticipated this in terms of using the armored truck to be followed by cars of detectives and to be followed by myself and Chief Stevenson in the rear car, but of course this never developed.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Captain Fritz or anyone else made any inquiry of you or of anyone else, to your knowledge, prior to the movement as to whether things were ready to go in the basement area before starting from the third floor?
Chief BATCHELOR. I am told that he called Lieutenant Wiggins in the basement and asked him if he was ready. He called him, I think, from the jail floor, not from his office. He called him when Oswald was up in the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when the transfer party did appear, you were actually moving toward the armored car, as I recall it, then weren’t you, to close the door?
Chief BATCHELOR. No; I actually saw Oswald come through the door. Someone shouted “Here he comes.” I looked over and saw him come out the door, and then I turned and started up the ramp. I didn’t see the shooting. I turned before.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if Captain Fritz or anyone else called to find out if the situation was all right security wise?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know, because I wasn’t in the jail office. I was out. I am told that he called down and Lieutenant Wiggins said that almost immediately the elevator came down. And he said, “Is everything all right?” And started walking with the prisoner. And Wiggins said that he doesn’t recall whether he answered him or whether--I mean it just happened so quickly, or whether he went out ahead of him.
Mr. HUBERT. Were the armored car people told of the change of plans?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was proposed to get the truck out of the way?
Chief BATCHELOR. The driver was in the truck. I would have shouted to him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the plan, that you were to call to him?
Chief BATCHELOR. This wasn’t a plan. This is what I would have done. He was there. I knew he was there. And as soon as I ran up to close the thing, why I would have shouted. But after the shooting, I didn’t shout, and the truck wasn’t even moved. We had to move it to let the ambulance out.
Mr. HUBERT. But your thought was that since the plans had been changed, the truck had to be gotten out of the way, and since you were the only one down there who knew other than Stevenson, you would have gotten the truck out of the way?
Chief BATCHELOR. I would have gotten the truck out, just like I would have told him to close the door and let’s go.
Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall whether immediately prior to the shooting the detectives and other police officers in the basement had side arms, pistols drawn? Did you see anybody with a drawn gun?
Chief BATCHELOR. The only person I saw with a drawn gun was after the shooting. I looked up. There was a great deal of confusion and a lot of shouting immediately after the shooting, and a group of these reporters started to run up the Main Street ramp, and the officer at the top of that ramp, I recall very vividly him pulling his gun and waving it across this way and saying, “Get back down that ramp.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was Vaughn, was it not?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and they turned around and came back down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the police personnel in the basement area have any shotguns?
Chief BATCHELOR. Not visible. The homicide cars had shotguns.
Mr. HUBERT. But they weren’t visible?
Chief BATCHELOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, Sheriff Decker did not know that there was a change of plan from the use of the armored car to the use of the homicide car?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know whether he was called after the change of plans or not.
Mr. HUBERT. This was not announced?
Chief BATCHELOR. He knew he was to have some men at the gate to open the gate to the jail driveways of the county to let this armored car in, and the instructions were for Lieutenant Pierce, who drove the car out, was to get out around in front, to take this truck on beyond and not go in, drive right on down Houston Street with it. And whether Sheriff Decker was ever told of the change of plans or not, I don’t know, but I kind of doubt it.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, do you know of any type of pressure of any sort whatsoever which was put upon the police department or any member of it to allow free press coverage of the transfer?
Chief BATCHELOR. If you mean that any individual or any press group came and pressured anyone into that, I don’t know of any. Just the general pressure of the whole press barging in there and being in there was about the only thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any pressure put upon you or anyone else by officers or officials of the city higher than you to allow the press to be present in the way they were?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your estimate of what the number of press people and the general condition created by their presence, contributed to the failure of security? Of what the presence of the news media and the number of them contributed to the failure of security?
Chief BATCHELOR. Of course if we had taken him out in secret without anyone knowing about it, including the press, it is possible that this might not have happened. But I can’t say that the press caused any breakdown in security. From what we know now, believing that Oswald came in the Main Street entrance----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Ruby?
Chief BATCHELOR. I mean Ruby came in the Main Street entrance, our weakness in security lay in allowing him to come down that ramp in the first place.
Had the press not been in the basement at all, and assuming that Ruby slipped into the basement, then he might have been detected more readily.
If people had not been standing across the Main Street ramp, there would have been no place for him to screen himself. But the actual fact of the press being there is hard to say that this caused the breakdown in the security, in my opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you were--when I say you, I mean the police department and of course including you--you were aware of threats being made or having been made toward Oswald, isn’t that correct?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I was aware of it.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, the threats were in the nature of mass action rather than single-man action?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; that was what the anonymous report was, and it is my opinion that a hundred men, as suggested by the threats, could not have gotten into the basement, whereas one person slipping in there accomplished it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any conversation with Chief Curry or others at which you were present or took part, in which the subject was raised that the number of people there in the basement made single action, or action by a single man more difficult to deal with than otherwise?
Chief BATCHELOR. I think it is logical to assume that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, more specifically, do you remember a discussion of the possibility that some member even of the police department who was unsteady might, as a single-man action, take some such action?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall a discussion about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you yourself or anyone else that you know of adverted to the possibility that the number of people involved increased the risk of single-man action, but that the plan went ahead as a calculated risk?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that that was discussed. I am sure that we all assumed that there is a risk in such matters, because we could have possibly taken him out in secret and avoided the press.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that considered at all, taking him out in secret?
Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall a discussion of it myself. I am sure that Chief Curry and the rest of us possibly felt that the press had been allowed in the quarters and they got in there quite by, or were in there long before we got back from the President’s assassination. They were there when we got there, when we returned to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on November 22?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and we had gone that far with them, and I suppose it was a matter of tacit understanding that they had been allowed to report the news as it developed, and in keeping the public aware, perhaps it was felt that they should be allowed to complete, if that is the word to use, their reporting on the actual transfer. This, however, was never discussed. This is just a little mental browsing on my own. I don’t know that that is the way everybody felt, but it is the way it was done at any rate.
Mr. HUBERT. You were aware, of course, of, I think it is called General Order No. 81 and a supplement concerning press releases?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I am aware of that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that the general tenor of those directives is that they shall cooperate with the press to the extent that such does not interfere with police operations?
Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever consider that the chaotic condition, that I understand existed from what I have learned, constituted interference, or did you think so?
Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn’t for me to say, Mr. Hubert, whether they should or should not be there. They were kept, as far as possible, out of the bureaus in which the investigation was going on. They were in the hallways.
We have never thought it wise to try to hide from the press the course of investigation except as it might interfere with the further investigation of a crime.
We have at the end of the hallway in the CID, the pressroom. When we remodeled the city hall, we purposely had glass doors put in all the bureaus and in the offices so that there could be no accusations that underhanded things or unlawful force or intimidations were used against these people.
We have always considered that the press was entitled to know the news, and that as long as it didn’t interfere with the course of an investigation, we have allowed them out at the scene of crimes, but have kept them back from places where they might disturb evidence and this sort of thing. But have never tried to exclude them from knowledge of what was going on.
We make offense reports on every crime that is committed, and these offense reports are subject to being looked at by the press. They go over them nearly every morning looking for stories.
Sometimes they will find one that they want to ask someone about. We have always tried to cooperate with the press.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought then that the mass confusion which has been described, which existed in the hallway of the third floor at least, did not actually interfere with Captain Fritz’ investigative steps excepting insofar as it made it difficult to move Oswald?
Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it increased the difficulties; yes, but it didn’t actually interfere with the investigation. It added to the confusion, but as far as the press, some of the things that added to the confusion were all of the various agencies that had an interest and all trying to carry on a simultaneous investigation. This within itself added to the confusion.
This was a highly unusual type of crime and we are really not set up for procedures whereby you allow every other agency to come in and go through all of your evidence in the fashion that it was here, because of the press of time and so on.
It was a most difficult investigation, but I don’t think the press materially interfered with the investigation itself. They made things difficult by asking a lot of questions and taking up a lot of people’s time and this sort of thing, but they were not allowed in the homicide bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Chief Batchelor, I don’t believe that there has been any conversation between us which has not become the subject of the actual recorded transcript here, and the rules of the Commission require that I get your concurrence in that.
That is to say, that we have not discussed anything, have we, off the record that has not become a part of the record?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything else to comment upon or add in any way?
Chief BATCHELOR. No, actually the things that we discussed today were pretty much along the lines of the things that I gave a previous deposition on. There may be some little variance in exact times or exact sequence, but it is pretty hard to remember all those.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.
Chief BATCHELOR. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF JESSE E. CURRY
The testimony of Jesse E. Curry was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas were present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry. Chief Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Chief Curry, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and I understand you have appeared here by virtue of a letter received from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, and I think that was received by you sometime last week?
Chief CURRY. Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday. Do you remember what date it had on it?
Chief CURRY. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you know, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice from the date of notice, which in this case is very probably more than 3 days, but the rules also provide for a waiver of that notice, and I take it you are willing to testify without it?
Chief CURRY. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Chief CURRY. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Curry, your deposition has already been taken by me some months ago, and also you have appeared before the Commission.
The purpose of this deposition is simply to clarify a few points that have come up in studying those depositions and the statements.
We have information of which you are aware that Chief Talbert----
Chief CURRY. That is Captain Talbert.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert initiated certain security measures on the morning of November 24. Is it your understanding that he was given any specific instructions, or was he just following the normal security precautions?
Chief CURRY. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went down for the purpose of giving specific instructions, but when they arrived in the basement, he had already begun to set up security, so they didn’t just say “hold everything and let me give you this order.” They saw it was being taken care of.
He had assumed command of the security and they just discussed with him then what was being done, but no specific order was issued to Captain Talbert “you go set up security in the basement.”
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that, that you had a conversation with Stevenson and Batchelor concerning the overall security problem?
Chief CURRY. Up in the office, in the administrative office we had been talking, and Chief Batchelor or Chief Stevenson--one, I don’t recall which, said “Let’s go check the basement”, which I took to mean check the security of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a general discussion about the overall plan of the transfer, or who was it that worked it out?
Chief CURRY. In general, it was worked out between myself, Chief Stevenson, Chief Batchelor, and Captain Fritz. Now I mean all of us discussed this. Not together, but I don’t recall who was present at each time something was mentioned, but I think that Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor were present, and I think in discussing it with Captain Fritz I was alone--that is, no other chief was present.
Mr. HUBERT. When were the details of the transfer worked out? I mean the plan of transfer, how did it come about?
Chief CURRY. What part exactly do you refer to?
Mr. HUBERT. For instance, a decision as to when and how and who would be involved?
Chief CURRY. As to when, would be made by Captain Fritz, because he was questioning the suspect and it was up to him to determine when he was ready to transfer Oswald.
He had told me the day before that probably by 10 o’clock on this morning he would finish questioning Oswald and would be ready for a transfer.
However, as you know, he was not ready at 10 o’clock, and we didn’t try to rush him or encourage him to speed it up. But on Sunday morning after the threats against Oswald’s life had been received, Chief Stevenson, Batchelor and myself decided that for security purposes it would be advisable to transfer Oswald in an armored truck.
However, after these were obtained and provisions made to get, that is to get the armored car, and discussing it with Captain Fritz, he proposed to transfer him in a car with himself and some detectives for the purpose of maneuverability in the event that someone did try to get the prisoner from them.
It was then decided that the armored car would still be used, the same route followed by the armored car and the escort vehicles, but that the prisoner Oswald would be placed in a plain detective car with Captain Fritz and two other detectives, and with a car of detectives following.
They would cut out of the group of vehicles as we crossed Main Street, and would proceed west on Main to the county jail. They would proceed west on Main to Houston Street, make a right turn and go into the county jail.
The rest of the vehicles, including the armored cars, would proceed west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and turn south, but they would not go into the county jail building.
Mr. HUBERT. Were any of those plans such as the route that would be used and the method discussed or formalized in any way at all prior to Sunday morning?
Chief CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you had a conversation with Sheriff Decker on Sunday morning. Do you remember the time of that, approximately?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. As I recall it, at that time it was not yet determined who was going to move him, is that correct?
Chief CURRY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. In the conversation with Decker, or during that conversation, it was decided that it would be your responsibility to move him, is that correct?
Chief CURRY. As I recall the conversation, I told Sheriff Decker that we were ready for him to have the prisoner, that you can come after him when you want to.
And at that time he said, “I thought you were going to bring him to me.”
And I said, “Well, either way you want it.” I said, “If you want us to bring him, we will bring him to you.” This is not an unusual procedure at all.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was after that then, and it could not have been before that, that any plans of your own began to take shape?
Chief CURRY. Security of the basement could; yes, because regardless of who took the man, the basement had to be secured. The particular route that would be followed would not be decided upon until that time, but this is no problem.
We knew we had to go west on Main Street or Elm Street to get to the county jail, but we did, after it was decided that we would transfer him, make that plan to place more men on the Elm Street route to be sure that the convoy that would be en route would not in any way be hindered.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you considered it your responsibility to secure the basement, irrespective of who actually moved him, you or the sheriff?
Chief CURRY. That is true; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was consideration ever given to any other route than through the basement?
Chief CURRY. Not through the basement?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Chief CURRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember visiting the basement with Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson?
Chief CURRY. I seem to recall that one time we were there together, but as I remember they were in the basement as I drove in coming to work.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been before you called Decker?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think at that time you or perhaps Chief Batchelor ordered certain cameras to be removed that were in the hallway. Do you recall that?
Chief CURRY. I told Chief Batchelor or Stevenson or someone that those cameras will have to be moved.
Mr. HUBERT. They were in the hallway leading from the jail office down into the basement?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you direct where they should be moved to?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Chief CURRY. Well, if you are familiar with the basement, there is a driveway entering from Main Street. You would be traveling south. As you near the end of the ramp where you would make a turn to the left and go east to go into the parking area, there are some guardrails that would protect people from stepping off of the ramp into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. They separate the ramp from the basement?
Chief CURRY. From the parking area; yes, sir, and I instructed, I believe it was Lieutenant Wiggins, who was standing there, to have a patrol car and a patrol wagon, which might be referred to as a paddy wagon, moved from the first two spaces, and have the television cameras set up there. If they, the news media, wanted to set them up, they would have to be set up there.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time it had not been decided whether Oswald would be transferred by armored car or by your police car, or for that matter, by the sheriff?
Chief CURRY. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether anyone gave any orders to the effect that press media and all authorized persons there should be kept on the east side of the rail that you just described, and not in the ramp area?
Chief CURRY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. That order was given, do you remember?
Chief CURRY. At the time, I instructed that all the press would be behind the guardrail--all the news media.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any request made by anybody that they should be allowed to stand on the west side of the rail?
Chief CURRY. Not to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought all the way through that they were being kept on the other side?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, of course, the plans were formulated by yourself and Batchelor and perhaps Stevenson, and after you learned that Sheriff Decker was agreeable to your bringing the prisoner over, or it was agreed that you would, the plan of carrying him there by armored truck was first discussed, and later that was changed. That was the plan. Who was in charge of actually executing the plan?
Chief CURRY. I don’t suppose any one particular man would have been charged with the responsibility of the entire movement.
Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor and Chief Lumpkin, all of these men went into the basement immediately prior to the transfer, and each would have had responsibility to correct anything that was amiss.
Mr. HUBERT. All were aware of the plan?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To use the armored truck which had meanwhile pulled up as a decoy and carried out as you described a few moments ago?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think there has been some testimony by other people prior that an attempt had been made to reach you early Sunday morning but that the line was reported busy.
Chief CURRY. The FBI asked me about that a few days ago, and I recall that the squad that came out, or that they actually called me and said they had been trying to get me and the squad was on the way out there; and discussing this with my wife, she said that she had taken the phone off the hook sometime during the night, and that the telephone company had made some kind of noise over the phone that woke her up and told her that something was wrong with the line, and the phone was off the hook, and she replaced it on the hook.
But when I was talking to the FBI Agent Vince Drain, about this, I didn’t remember just what was wrong with the telephone.
At the time, I had been up for quite awhile, and it was not my instructions to her to take it off the hook. She took it off sometime on her own initiative, she said, so we could get some sleep. That was the trouble with the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, is it possible to comment upon this? To what extent was the failure of security caused by the presence of news media in the basement?
Chief CURRY. Well, in my opinion, it afforded some concealment for Ruby after he entered the basement, the presence of these news media people.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that, that it was difficult to distinguish him from news people?
Chief CURRY. Yes; looking back now, I can see that, had they all been excluded, that he would have immediately been seen as an unauthorized person in the basement, and that some action would have been taken to remove him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to the action of the single individual in the security precautions discussed?
Chief CURRY. Was what?
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to the possible action of a single man in setting up the security measures that you did, as opposed to mob action, as I understand it?
Chief CURRY. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your security was really directed toward mob action more than to a single-man action?
Chief CURRY. That’s right. We felt that if an attempt was made on him, that it would be made by a group of people. Some of the threats that had been made during the night was, “this is a group of one hundred and we will take the prisoner before you get him to the county jail,” so we really expected trouble, if we had trouble, from a group of people and not an individual.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state then that there was not any consideration given to the probability of a one-man action?
Chief CURRY. It was not discussed at all, that I know of, in our discussions of security. It was based on the fact that we thought a group of people might try to take action.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at is this. Actually, a single-man action would, or rather protection or security against a single-man action would be virtually impossible with a mass of people around even if they were news media?
Chief CURRY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it then that there was simply no consideration of single-man action, or that it was a calculated risk?
Chief CURRY. Well, it would have been a calculated risk, because actually we discussed the possibility of even some detective or some police officer that might be so emotionally aroused that he might try to take some action against the man, and we tried to be sure that the men we put there were emotionally stable men.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you discuss that with?
Chief CURRY. I think it was with Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson perhaps. I don’t recall exactly who I discussed all of these things with.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any pressures imposed upon you by anyone to allow the press covering of the matter that did in fact occur?
Chief CURRY. Not any particular person, but by the news media that was present.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether anyone advised against allowing the news media in the basement?
Chief CURRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any reason, Chief, why the plans for the transfer of Oswald were not made prior to Sunday morning?
Chief CURRY. Because we didn’t particularly know when he would be transferred, and we knew that it wouldn’t take a great deal of time to set up security, so we didn’t see any particular need for doing this prior to the time that we did it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation with Captain Fritz just prior to the move as to whether the security precautions were set up?
Chief CURRY. I can’t recall. He tells me that he asked if everything was ready in the basement, and I believe that is the words he used, and he says that I said “Yes.” I am sure that I told him this if he says I did, because prior to this, I had sent Chief Batchelor down to be sure that everything was ready.
Mr. HUBERT. These various officers that you mentioned would be responsible for carrying out the plan? I think you mentioned Stevenson and Batchelor particularly? They were all briefed as to the overall plan, were they not?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So everyone in control knew what was going to happen?
Chief CURRY. Yes; except I believe Lumpkin. Now he didn’t know until Chief Batchelor and Stevenson came to the basement that the change had been made, but Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson were aware of the change and Chief Stevenson told Chief Lumpkin about the change when he got to the basement. The only thing that would affect him was the fact they were going to put the prisoner in a squad car instead of the armored car, because that was the only change in the plans.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the conversation with Fritz to the general effect that he did not like the idea of all the news people being in the basement?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. There was some indication, I guess from him, that there was such a conversation, but you say you don’t remember it?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any written reports from Archer, Clardy and McMillon in February prior to the Ruby trial, which were supplementary to the original report given to you, do you remember?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall. I would have to check my records on it.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you could do that?
Chief CURRY. If you will give me their names, write them down for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; my handwriting is reputed to be very bad. Let’s see, it is A-r-c-h-e-r, C-l-a-r-d-y, and M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n.
Chief CURRY. Now if this is in regard to a conversation that they overheard up in the jail between Ruby and a Secret Service agent, well, I remember getting something about that. I know someone came back and asked for some additional reports on this. Do you know what this is in regard to, this supplemental report?
Mr. HUBERT. I think they were in regard to what Ruby told them.
Chief CURRY. Down in the basement?
Mr. HUBERT. Either that, or immediately after having been brought upstairs.
Chief CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true. This was in the presence of Secret Service Agent Sorrels; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The statements we would like to have are any other written statements made by them probably in February, but in any case prior to the Ruby trial and after their original statements were made in connection with the general order that everyone should make a statement to you. Do you remember that that was done? Do you recall the message from Mr. J. Edgar Hoover asking that the police not disclose the results of the FBI investigation with reference to Oswald?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall ever having received a direct communication from Hoover.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything about any FBI request coming to your attention indirectly that the FBI investigation would not be revealed?
Chief CURRY. What part of the investigation?
Mr. HUBERT. Any part. I mean was there any such communication, that you remember, at all from the FBI?
Chief CURRY. I had a lot of communications from local FBI who inferred that these orders were coming out of Washington, or the questions were coming out of Washington about various things, insisting that the evidence be shipped up there immediately, and the fact that we shouldn’t show anything on television.
Several things of that nature, but I don’t recall specifically saying that the results of this investigation should not be revealed. They did reveal a part of it, you know, about the rifle.
As you recall it, there was no evidence--pardon me. There was no part of their investigation revealed until they revealed it as I recall. I never had any contact with Hoover.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know yourself as to what food was made available to Oswald during the time he was in the custody of the police department?
Chief CURRY. Not exactly. Our jail meals usually consist of breakfast and dinner. They usually have a cooked cereal of some kind, some stewed fruit, bread, and coffee for breakfast. For their other meal, they usually have beans cooked with some kind of meat, some kind of vegetables served, and bread and coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. Then at night?
Chief CURRY. They serve two meals a day.
Mr. HUBERT. He was treated, so far as you know, as every other prisoner?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as the physical comforts were concerned, there was no distinction made between him and any other prisoner?
Chief CURRY. Except that he was placed in a cell alone, and in many cases we are not able to do this for every prisoner.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record, what is the official name of the police part of the building there? Is it called the city jail building?
Chief CURRY. The police and courts building.
Mr. HUBERT. The police and courts building?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other building that is adjacent to it?
Chief CURRY. It is referred to as the city hall or municipal building.
Mr. HUBERT. Municipal building?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they join together by a hallway?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That parking area is under the municipal building, whereas the ramp is under the police building?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the municipal building also?
Chief CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the way these buildings are, one is the municipal building and the other is the police department building?
Chief CURRY. They refer to one as the municipal building and the other as the police and courts building. Sometimes both are referred to as “city hall.”
Mr. HUBERT. Police and courts building. Let me go off the record for a moment.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, while we were off the record, I spoke to you about the police department records concerning the log made of the time when Oswald was taken from the custody of the jail personnel in your department to, say, Captain Fritz’ office or somewhere else, and as I understand it, a log is kept to record the transfers in custody of prisoners, is that correct, sir?
And if a prisoner is turned over to another branch of the police department, a document called a Tempo is issued which shows the time of release, to whom released, and the time returned?
Chief CURRY. This is the procedure where the prisoner, generally speaking, leaves the security of the jail area. A Tempo is made. As long as he is in the custody of the jailers, perhaps for a visitor or for perhaps into the identification bureau, which is a part of the jail, there would be no Tempo made.
But when he leaves the jail in the custody of some other bureau, this Tempo is made.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this then. Would a Tempo be made if he had a visit with, say, his wife, his mother, or his brother?
Chief CURRY. No; but there should be a visitor’s record made of this.
Mr. HUBERT. However, under those circumstances as you have described, he would still be in the custody of the jailer, and therefore there would be no occasion to have a Tempo?
Chief CURRY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that be true also when the identification bureau people took fingernail scrapings and hair specimens?
Chief CURRY. True. It would not be necessary to get a Tempo.
Mr. HUBERT. He would still be in the custody of the jail people and no Tempo would be necessary?
Chief CURRY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Also if Oswald made any telephone calls, would there be occasion for a Tempo on that?
Chief CURRY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is because the phone is in the jail area and no necessity for a Tempo?
Chief CURRY. That’s right. On his arrest card there would be a record kept of any phone calls that were made. It would be entered on the card, the fact that he did go in to use the phone, and it usually shows on the card whether or not contact was made.
Mr. HUBERT. That card would also show any visits?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now if he were taken to a lineup or showup, would a Tempo be made there?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; because let me put it this way. If he was brought from the jail to go to the showup, a Tempo would be probably issued then.
Mr. HUBERT. If custody were transferred?
Chief CURRY. Pardon me, let me restate this. In a general showup, the bureau that wants a person shown up notifies the jail personnel. The jail personnel gets the people together, the wanted person and two or three others similarly dressed, or people of the same nature and general build and so forth, out of the jail and takes them to the showup and then returns them to the jail. All this time they are in the custody of the jail personnel, so it would not be necessary to make out a Tempo on it.
Now at other times the prisoner could be in custody of a certain bureau and they could decide to show him up and they could have some detectives stand in with him, and there would be no need for the jail personnel to handle it at all on this basis, nor would it be necessary to get a Tempo, because he would already be out on a Tempo.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall at any time that you told the news media that the basement route would be used specifically?
Chief CURRY. Not specifically.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that, I think it was late on the night of the 22d or early on the morning of the 23d, there was a conversation with the press and yourself and the district attorney and Oswald in the assembly room?
As I recall it, the press had asked you “when can we see him” and so forth, and there was some discussion of how it would be done, and there was a great crowd around, and someone suggested another place. And I think you conferred with Mr. Wade, and it was decided to comply with this press request by using a larger room, to wit, the assembly room, and they all went down to it and subsequently you all came in. Was any kind of control or identification system used for entry into the assembly room?
Chief CURRY. Not into that room; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all those who were within the building or within the third floor went in?
Chief CURRY. That is where this discussion was held or where the announcement was made that there would be a showup in the police assembly room. It was made up on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. That was made at the request of the press?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was held really at the request of the press?
Chief CURRY. Yes, sir; I remember that I asked Mr. Wade if he thought it would be all right, and he said he didn’t see anything wrong with it.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that you told the press that----
Chief CURRY. They must not ask any questions and try to interview him in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. Or you would terminate?
Chief CURRY. And I did terminate it very quickly, because when Oswald was brought into the room, immediately they began to shoot questions at him and shove microphones into his face, and we kept him there a very short time, and I told them to take him away, take him back up to the jail, and they did. Mr. Wade remained in the room with the reporters after that. I left when the prisoner left.
Mr. HUBERT. Now do you know of the fact that a tape recording device was placed on the telephone of Mayor Cabell to pick up really any threatening calls that might be received by him? Are you aware of that?
Chief CURRY. I believe that we did that. I think our special services bureau went to his house.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that tape recording of those calls still in existence?
Chief CURRY. I suppose it is, sure. It wouldn’t be destroyed.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we may assume also that had there been anything of significance, it would have been reported?
Chief CURRY. Yes; I do think he had some threatening calls, but had there been something that we thought we could probably take some action on, we would have done it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the police department got a long distance call, or what was thought to be a long distance call, on November 24, threatening Mayor Cabell, and that in fact you transmitted that information to him when you talked to him on the morning before the shooting of Oswald. Do you recall that?
Chief CURRY. I recall that there were several calls that came to our attention, but I don’t remember each one of them.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was interested in, Mayor Cabell indicated that they thought that it was a long distance call, and I think they got that impression from you. Probably you got it from the operator, whoever got the call. You didn’t get the call yourself? You say if it were a long distance call, it might have been possible to trace it down?
Chief CURRY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t get the call yourself?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you could--who would have gotten it, do you know?
Chief CURRY. I don’t know. Anyone that is in the administrative office or any other part of the police department could have gotten it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who you got the information from?
Chief CURRY. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration, Chief, given to putting all the press people out of the building or out of the basement altogether?
Chief CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving Oswald by a route other than the basement route?
Chief CURRY. I think you asked me that once, and I don’t recall it. There may have been some discussion, but he could have been moved in another way by getting off on another floor. As I recall it, there was some brief discussion about it, but I think, as I recall it, Fritz didn’t want to move him other than in a routine manner.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?
Chief CURRY. Because, as I recall it, he felt like this was the best way to do it, because if he got off on another floor, he wouldn’t be protected. He wouldn’t have much protection. You can’t take very many men with you on a small jail elevator. I believe it was Fritz I was discussing this with; I couldn’t be positive on that. As I recall it, there was some mention made of perhaps taking him out on the first floor and trying to get him outside that way, but it was decided that the best way would be to handle him through the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the suggestion that he be taken through another floor?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall other than someone perhaps thought we could slip him out and it might be better to slip him out rather than to move him according to normal procedures.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did the fact that there were so many members of the press present in the basement bear upon that question, or do you recall whether that was the reasoning that Fritz suggested?
Chief CURRY. I don’t recall; no. I don’t believe it was Fritz that suggested he be taken out through the first floor. I think he was opposed to it. Anyway, it was not discussed in great detail.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand there was some discussion of not going through the basement area, but using another way, and what I wanted to know was what was the reason given for that, whoever gave it?
Chief CURRY. Because of the press, I am sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And the danger that would exist from a one-man attack?
Chief CURRY. Perhaps that was in the mind of whoever suggested this. But their main thought was to avoid these reporters.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I don’t think we have discussed anything off the record that has not been covered on the record, and it is necessary for me to close this deposition by asking you if there has been anything off the record that was not subsequently brought on the record? My reaction is that there has not been, and I ask you if you agree with that?
Chief CURRY. I agree with that.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have anything else?
Chief CURRY. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Chief.
Chief CURRY. Yes, Sir.
TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON
The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 2:15 p.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson. Chief Stevenson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Chief Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Chief Stevenson, you appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. In fact, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so wishes.
Since you have not received the actual individual 3-day written notice, I ask you if you are now willing to waive that notice and proceed with the taking of this deposition?
Chief STEVENSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand so I may administer the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Chief STEVENSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, you were here and previously deposed, in fact by me, on the night of March 23, 1964, at which time your personal identification and other matters of this sort were recorded, so that it is not necessary to go into that at the present time.
I merely wish to clarify certain areas and perhaps develop others which were found to need clarification or development.
Do you recall what time it was on the 24th of November, 1963, that you reported for duty at the Dallas Police Department?
Chief STEVENSON. I believe around 8 to 8:30. I wouldn’t say exactly, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that time meet or see Chief Batchelor?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I saw Chief Batchelor when I arrived. I believe I was in the basement at that time. I had just driven in shortly before, or he had driven in right behind me, one of the two.
Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then between the two of you and with respect to others?
Chief STEVENSON. We looked the basement over at the time. Of course that early in the morning, there was not much activity. There was some officers in the basement. We went up to the administrative offices.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you check the basement?
Chief STEVENSON. Because we observed the officers there in the basement and knew that the prisoner would be transferred that particular morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it had been decided at that time whether the actual transfer would be the function and responsibility of the police department or of the sheriff’s office?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t. I know it was later in the morning when Chief Curry did call the sheriff’s office. As far as I know, at that time no plans had been finalized that we would transfer him or that the sheriff would transfer him.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the security precautions or measures being then set up, or which had been set up by Captain Talbert already, with reference to the basement would be applicable whether the transfer took place by you or by the sheriff, is that correct?
Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; as far as getting him out of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider then that the decision had already been made that the basement method of exit would be used irrespective of who moved the prisoner?
Chief STEVENSON. To my knowledge, that was the only one that we had considered.
Mr. HUBERT. Had there been consideration of the method of transfer prior to Sunday morning at all?
Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. Not as to the method.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a visit to the basement subsequent to that first visit when you arrived and reported for duty?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I had not been in the basement prior to the time I arrived, and of course we drive into the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. I really meant subsequent to that.
Chief STEVENSON. Oh, I am sorry. Yes, we made--Chief Batchelor and I made--I would say, two trips after that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Chief Curry go with you at any time?
Chief STEVENSON. We met Chief Curry, I believe, one time as he drove in the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation that you or Chief Curry or Chief Batchelor had with Captain Talbert regarding what had been done securitywise to the basement or otherwise?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security plans had been instituted prior to the time that Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff Decker?
Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Nothing more than that I had instructed my detectives to stand by for assignment.