Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 7 of 8)

Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 7 of 8)

15,073. Have you had any experience that enables you to compare your own property, at a time when it was not in your hands for fishing purposes with what it is now?-No. It has never been out of the hands of my family since the time I mentioned.

15,074. I believe it is not a common practice to raise rents in Shetland?-No; there has really been very little done in that way.

15,075. Has that something to do with the system of fishing for and obtaining supplies from the landlord?-I don't think it has been so much that, as the fact that the landlords are resident in the place, and there is a sort of moral pressure brought to bear upon a person who is living in the neighbourhood. You don't like to make yourself odious among the neighbours round about you. I think that has had more to do with it than anything else. It is not the same sort of thing as if a factor was raising the rent for a man living at a distance. On the Annsbrae estate the proprietors had not had the fishing for a long time, but I believe there was not a rise of rent there for two generations, until Mr. Walker commenced to deal with the property a few years ago. The land there was very cheap. I think the land is not over-rented, and there has been very little change upon it in that way until lately.

15,076. I understand the proprietors interested in fishing invariably make advances to their tenants, in the form of meal and goods?- They must do so.

15,077. That, I suppose, arises from a want of ready money among the tenantry themselves?-Yes. Those who have not ready money must have these advances. There are some people who do not require them.

15,078. Don't you think their number would be increased if by a ready-money system they were encouraged to save money and to acquire habits of frugality?-I don't think so. My experience, from the beginning of the business, so far as I have had to do with it, has been, that under the present system a prudent man who chooses to exercise self-denial could pass out of all possible control, either of landlord or fish-curer, to do him any injury. He could, if he chose, draw his money and send it where he liked; and I have had numbers of men who have not dealt to the extent of £1 in the year with me since I began business. They just took their money at the end of the year, and supplied themselves where they chose.

15,079. Does it not seem to you that the improvident have undue facilities for obtaining credit when they get supplies for the fishing from the landlord, who has an inducement to carry them on in the knowledge that they have to fish for him?-That has not been my practice. I don't like to make any bad debts, and in two cases I have turned a man about his business because I could not keep him out of debt. The most profitable fisherman is the man who pays his way, and not the man who takes goods out of the shop.

15,080. But in order to get your boats manned, I fancy you are obliged to make these supplies?-Yes, we must make advances.

15,081. Do you think the system of paying a man cash down for his fish, or at shorter intervals than an annual settlement, could be carried out?-I cannot see how it would work; and besides, I think if such a plan were introduced, the people would just revert to the present system. I am perfectly satisfied that, if you were to pass a law requiring the men to be paid in cash down, the result would be that we would have a meeting, and we would agree to pay so much per cwt., and the fishermen would say, 'We know you, and we will trust to you paying us that price at the end of the season.' That would be the case with the greater number of curers, such as Hay & Co., Mr. Garriock, and myself. The price would be fixed at a particular time but the men would take our word for it that they were to be paid at the end of the season. We would have to pay them a nominal price at short intervals in order to satisfy the law, but they would expect to be paid a higher price at the end of the season, if it turned out that we realized a higher price for our fish. That would be a binding arrangement, on the one side at least.

15,082. But that would not be a very fair bargain?-It would just be the bargain that we are constantly forced to make with the fishermen, because they always expect the curers to be fast on one side, but not on the other. For instance, if they sign an agreement to go to the Faroe fishing from March to August, and it comes a bad year, they don't get so many fish as makes the voyage a profitable one for them, and they say they will rather go to prison than go to the fishing another year, unless you put them upon wages. In the meantime you have made advances to them, and you must give them the chance of that. I know that Messrs. Hay and others have engaged fishermen for that fishing at a settled price, but when the end of the season came the fish had been sold so well that other curers were paying a high rate, and they have just had to put the bargain in the fire, and pay according to the higher price, or lose the services of the men.

15,083. Could not an arrangement of this kind be carried out, that a price should be fixed to be paid weekly, or fortnightly, or monthly, on the delivery of the fish, according as the case may be, and that the fishermen should be entitled, as in the whale fishing, to an additional payment, similar to oil-money, at the end of the season?-Yes, they might be paid at such a rate as the curer could afford, in the same way as is done now; but that would come practically to the same thing as the present system.

15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly wages would never do.

15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing, and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing.

15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their old state.

15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?- It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season.

15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d. as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish ashore at all? How would they be able to live then?

15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach them to lay by something on which they might be able to live when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or 1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving, and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain sailing then.

15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland. I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt. You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been represented.

15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under £100 belong to fishermen?-I think so.

15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that sum belong to people of the same class?-I am satisfied of that.

15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the country; because I think that any person who had accumulated more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank. When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander nearly loses his head when he sees a £1 note, it is very important that there should be some inquiry on that subject.

15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have any deposits at all.

15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it, and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time.

15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10 note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year. But he would never think of having a permanent running balance with me if he had money of his own in bank.

15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with the shop, and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods in money.

15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so off £4 or £5.

15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us.

15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and he is to leave at Martinmas.

15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person; and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston, who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming season, and I have made no objection to it.

15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I will require so and so the following year, so that they may not make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew nothing about him having been previously engaged to another service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867 Charles Eunson paid me over £3 or three guineas; and John Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year.

15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt. more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?- I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen, and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce, Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also. Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if they want their price.

15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons, I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his business.

15,105. Do communications pass between you and the other fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays 6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually found the current price by taking care to be about the last who sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a £10 note on the transaction.

15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal with?-Exceedingly.

15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are entitled to one half of the proceeds of the fishing.

15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a penny of profit upon them.

15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are debited to me.

15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them going over the line.

15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these shops?-Not one farthing.

15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly what we get.

15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No.

15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast.

15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined.

15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am.

15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge, Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something like that.

15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart, Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes.

15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved, or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them, and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that, or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only reasonable that if they could assist the proprietor, they should do so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word. The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other body that they were to do that.

15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for the rent?-No.

15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did not make him bound.

15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes. Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the money to me; but the settlements are all made by me.

15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think altogether there are 25 or 26.

15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants. The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice they should have.

15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among them.

15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop.

15,127. And I suppose the trade of the shop depends on his securing a certain number of fishermen for his boats?-Yes, and on the good-will of the tenants there.

15,128. But if the tenants are in debt, are they not virtually obliged to deal at his shop?-I don't think so.

15,129. Do you think it probable that they could get credit anywhere else?-I certainly think so; and I think Williamson himself is in a position to go a great way in giving them credit.

15,130. Are you aware that Williamson commenced business with a very small capital?-I don't think he could have had much means; but I believe he has paid his fishermen in cash this season.

15,131. You mean that he has paid in cash any balances that were due?-I don't know that there were many balances due. I think the fishermen would not deal much with him, and he actually paid for the fish almost wholly in cash. I know that I sent him about £120 for the purpose.

15,132. Then, notwithstanding the obligation to fish that is laid on the tenants, Williamson has not been able to make a good business there?-I don't think he has, because, notwithstanding that the proprietor wished the tenants to deal with him as much as possible, they have not, in point of fact, done so more than they could possibly avoid. He is nearer to them, and they might get some things more conveniently from him than anywhere else. I am anxious to make it appear that I explained thoroughly to them, that if they could not arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with another, they were quite at liberty to do as they chose.

15,133. Is the letter I have shown you the only one that has passed on the subject of fishing with Stewart or any of the tenants on that estate?-The only one; and I have never had any complaints since it was written.

15,134. Have you had any experience in the management of property in other parts of Shetland?-Not a large experience, but I have a pretty good notion of the manner in which it is managed.

15,135. Can you say whether it is common for rents to be paid through the fish-merchant?-I believe it is rather common that the fish-merchant becomes responsible for the rents. The proprietor says to him, 'You have my fishermen, and you must pay their rents,' or something like that.

15,136. Do you know that, in point of fact, it is usual for a fish-curer to draw a cheque in favour of the proprietor for the rents of a large number of the fishermen employed by him?-I have seen it done. There is a small property in Delting that I have managed, where a number of the rents have been paid in that way; but there was no arrangement whatever that the fish-curer should pay the rents: they just came through him. I have got perhaps £50 at a time in that way.

15,137. You are also a bank agent?-Yes.

15,138. Has that practice not come within your knowledge as a bank agent?-I cannot say that it has.

15,139. You have not been long in that position?-Not long. Besides, I could not be sure that cheques presented were for that purpose.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT MULLAY, examined.

15,140. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-Yes, to a small extent.

15,141. Have you any other business?-I have a retail shop here.

15,142. How many boats had you employed in the line-fishing last year?-Seven.

15,143. You have a fishing station at Ireland, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. I pay rent to him for the beach and booth.

15,144. Is your station the only place in that neighbourhood where fish can be landed and dried?-There is no other place in that bay where fish can be cured; there is no other beach than the one I have.

15,145. Are the tenants on that part of the Simbister estate under any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever.

15,146. Do they, in point of fact, all fish for you?-Yes; all those who fish out of that bay.

15,147. Is that because there is no other beach?-I suppose there is no other cause for it.

15,148. Would it be a misstatement to say that the Simbister tenants in that quarter are obliged, by the terms of their tenure, to fish for you and for Mr. John Robertson, jun.?-Yes. They are not bound, because there are some of them who fish for me in one year, and perhaps they are at the farthest end of Shetland the next, and then they may come back to me again.

15,149. Do you keep a shop at the fishing station?-I keep nothing there except a supply of fishing lines and hooks.

15,150. Do any of the fishermen there get their supplies from your shop in Lerwick?-They get what they want.

15,151. Do they keep an account with you, which is settled at the annual settling time?-Yes; but many of them never get one penny from me except in the shape of cash. There must be an account for them in my books when settling with them, and when the fishing is divided between them and their partners; but many of them have no individual account for out-takes.

15,152. Have you any interest in the Faroe fishing?-None whatever.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, jun., examined.

15,153. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-I am. I have a retail shop here, and a fishing station at Spiggie on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

15,154. Are the tenants in the neighbourhood of that station under any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. If such a statement was made to you, it was entirely wrong. I am quite sure the tenants there do not hold their land under any such condition.

15,155. Do many of Mr. Bruce's tenants fish for you, in point of fact?-I think I had ten boats at Spiggie last year-three men in each boat.

15,156. Were these men mostly from Mr. Bruce's lands?-Almost entirely, I should say.

15,157. Was that because these lands are adjacent to your fishing station?-I believe that is the principal reason why they fished for me.

15,158. Might these men have cured their own fish, or fished for any other merchant, if they had chosen?-Yes.

15,159. Was there any local circumstance that prevented them from doing so?-They could not have cured their own fish in that neighbourhood, because the beach was mine. I possessed it and there is no other beach within several miles.

15,160. Therefore the fishermen residing in that particular place, may be bound to a particular fish-curer by the physical character of the country as well as by a legal obligation?-I believe that is so. That is the only way [Page 384] in which I can account for the men fishing at my station.

15,161. You have certain natural advantages at your station?- Yes; and I presume it is the same in many other cases. At the same time, I am willing to believe that if the men had had a choice of stations, they would just as soon have fished for me as for any other person in that neighbourhood. I settled with them at the end of the year, and paid them according to the current price.

15,162. You did not pay them above it?-No.

15,163. I believe there are some merchants in your neighbourhood who pay considerably above the current price?-They are not exactly in my neighbourhood, but there are such merchants within a dozen miles.

15,164. How do you account for them being able to do so?-I am not able to account for the proceedings of these gentlemen; they always appear to me to be inexplicable.

15,165. Could you not afford to pay at the price which they give?-No, not unless I worked for nothing.

15,166. Could you not do it if you were selling to the retail dealers direct?-I don't think I could: that could not be done, as a general rule.

15,167. Do you sell your fish to wholesale merchants?- Generally; I may say always.

15,168. Do you sell them in one lot at the end of the season?- Generally in one lot.

15,169. Do most of the men run accounts with you for supplies during the fishing season?-A few of them do.

15,170. Have you a store there for that purpose?-I have a station there, and during the summer season I keep some fishing materials at it, such as lines and hooks, and things of that sort. These are the only materials I am expected to supply them with.

15,171. Do you not supply them with meal and other stores?-It is expected that I will supply them with them too, if they ask for them; but the men generally in that neighbourhood are very well off, and they can get their supplies from other merchants, and in fact they do so.

15,172. Do many of them run accounts with you in Lerwick for supplies?-The only article I supply them with is meal, and it is principally the poorer men who get it from me; that is, men who are a little behind, and who would not get credit so readily as some of their neighbours.

15,173. Are these accounts for meal settled at the annual settlement in the usual way?-Yes.

15,174. Have you any other fishings, except at Spiggie?-I have a station at Levenwick also. I have not many boats there. I think there were about half a dozen boats fishing for me last season.

15,175. Have you a store there for supplying the fishermen?-I have, during the summer season, for supplying lines and hooks and other fishing materials. I have also a store there for the sale of general goods.

15,176. Is that a permanent store?-It has been permanent for the last twelve months.

15,177. Do the men keep accounts there when they want goods on credit, and settle for them at the end of the season?-Yes; but my instructions to my factor are, to give as little as possible, except fishing materials and some of the absolute necessaries of life, on credit.

15,178. You are the successor to the business of Mr. Robert Mouat?-Yes, and his predecessor too.

15,179. Were you trustee on his sequestrated estate?-No; it was Mr. William Robertson.

15,180. Did Mouat, during the last two years of his tack, call the tenants together and desire them to fish for you?-No. In October or November 1870 he came and told me he was going to give up the fishing, because he had so many other kinds of business, and he could not look after them all quite well; and he said he would give me the run of the store at Levenwick and the beach during the last two years of his tack that remained. I agreed to take it, and came down to the place. He was there at the time, and he invited a number of the men to wait upon him, and told them what he had resolved to do, and recommended that they should fish for me. Some of the men agreed to do so, and others said they preferred having their freedom to do what they liked; and they did so.

15,181. Did many of the fishermen who had been in Mouat's employment continue to fish for you when you took up that station?-I made up about five or six boats last year out of his men,-perhaps twenty men.

15,182. Did you find that these men were in great indebtedness?- I found that there were some of them very poor and ill-off, much worse than I would like to find them.

15,183. Did you take over any part of the stock which Mouat had in his shop there?-Yes, I bought the stuff that remained in his shop at the Moul.

15,184. Did you pay a full price for that?-Yes; it was sold at a valuation, at which he and I were present.

15,185. What was the quality of the stock?-It consisted principally of lines and some drapery goods. The quality of the goods that I bought was very fair. Some of them had been very recently brought in, but others had lain in the shop for a good while. These articles I generally refused to take.

15,186. Had you to take over any meal?-No; there was not an ounce in the shop.

15,187. Were there any articles of food of any kind?-No.

15,188. Then what you took over was entirely soft goods and fishing materials?-Yes.

15,189. Have you any knowledge as to the quality and prices of the provisions which had been sold in his shop?-No; that did not come within my knowledge at all.

15,190. Have you understood from the people in the neighbourhood whom you have since employed, that the quality was very inferior and the price high?-I have heard such complaints.

15,191. I suppose the people express themselves well pleased with the change that has been made?-I heard of nothing else.

15,192. Was that the only transaction you had with Mouat or with the trustee on his estate with regard to the shop business?-Ever since Mouat became tacksman of that property, I have had some dealings with him every year in the purchase of fish and herrings.

15,193. But had you any other transaction with him in connection with him leaving the property and you taking over the fishermen?-No; nothing beyond what I have stated.

15,194. Are you engaged in the herring fishing?-Yes.

15,195. How many vessels have you employed in it?-I would have perhaps twenty boats from Levenwick and Lerwick going to the herring fishing for about six weeks, commencing on 12th August, and ending about the end of September.

15,196. What is the nature of the bargain which you make with the crews of these boats?-It is understood that I am to pay the prices that are generally paid in Shetland for herrings. Prior to 1869 the price I paid to my men was generally regulated by the price paid by Mr. Methuen, fish-curer, Leith, who is the largest fish-curer in Scotland. He, up to that time, had boats from Mr. Bruce of Sand Lodge. Mr. Bruce, once a year, made a bargain with Mr. Methuen, and generally brought him to a very high figure, and my fishermen expected that I was to pay the same price that Mr. Methuen did. They considered that when Mr. Methuen, the greatest fish-curer in Scotland, was able to give certain price to his men, they ought to get the same and that was the price I always paid until three years ago. Since then the herring fishing has been almost a blank; it has been a source of great loss.

15,197. At that time did you become bound to pay them only the current price in Shetland?-There was no bargain made about that. In fact the fishing is so very uncertain, that it is just a matter of circumstances whether we speak about prices or not. Last year, for instance, I had to prepare for about twenty boats fishing, and, I think I did not get thirty crans of herrings altogether.

[Page 385]

15,198. You did not fix a price per cran at the beginning of the season?-No.

15,199. Are the men who are engaged in the herring fishing the same men who fish for ling during the summer months?-Yes.

15,200. Are the boats different?-Frequently they are the same boats.

15,201. Is the settlement made at the same time as the settlement for the ling fishing?-Yes.

15,202. Is there any other point you desire to mention in connection with this inquiry?-No. The whole question seems to be very well ventilated, and I have nothing to add.

15,203. Would you have any objection to a system of weekly or fortnightly payments for the fish that are delivered to you?-I would have no objection to that if it were practicable, but I think there are difficulties in the way which make it practically impossible.

15,204. Would these difficulties not be removed, or greatly reduced, if the weekly or fortnightly payment were only a portion of the price, or a minimum price of say 5s. 6d. per cwt. for ling, leaving the balance of the price of the fish to the end of the season, and to pay it then?-I don't think that system would work very well. It would entail a great amount of trouble and I cannot see how it could be carried out.

15,205. Would there be any trouble, except keeping cash at the stations and handing it to the fishermen at short intervals?-That would be one great source of trouble.

15,206. Would there be any other?-The difficulty of introducing such a system appears to me to be this, that the poor men would not be able to get on in January and February before the fishing begins, unless they obtained advances of some kind from the merchants. If a system of ready-money payments were introduced, the fish being paid for only when they were delivered in the month of June, then the men would have some difficulty in maintaining themselves in the winter and spring.

15,207. No doubt there might be some hardship or difficulty at first, but after one or two seasons do you not think the men would have learned to provide for that part of the season?-There are certain classes of men that I don't see how such a system could work with at all.

15,208. Could these men not find a certain provision in more application to the winter fishing?-There are some localities where the winter fishing is impracticable. The boats cannot be hauled up and down, so that really there are no fish got except in a few days of exceptionally fine weather.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER GARRIOCK, examined.

15,209. Are you a merchant in Lerwick?-I am an agent in Lerwick.

15,210. Do you keep a shop?-No; but I keep fishing materials for my men, and for general sale.

15,211. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, only in the Faroe fishing. I have three vessels employed in it.

15,212. Where are the men employed in these vessels supplied with their materials and fishing supplies?-Their fishing materials are got from me, and I generally appoint them to get their other materials from Hay & Co., or R. & C. Robertson, or Harrison & Sons. There are four or five individuals in Lerwick that I give them their option to get their materials from.

15,213. Do you guarantee these gentlemen for the advances they give to your men?-Yes; at least of late I have had to do it.

15,214. Do you settle with the merchants before settling with the fishermen?-No, not before. The men get their accounts from them, and we retain the amount.

15,215. Do you receive a commission upon the advances made by the merchants?-Occasionally.

15,216. Do you not always do so?-No. Some of them don't agree to give it; there is no arrangement about that.

15,217. Do those who give it get a reference?-They do not. The men have very often to go to them.

15,218. But you give them the option only to go to certain parties whom you name?-Yes. If they begin to deal with one party, they must deal with the same party during the season, because of the difficulty of keeping accounts with the various parties in the town.

15,219. You name a certain number of merchants with whom they must deal?-Yes; and they are generally the most respectable people in Lerwick, where they can get their supplies most moderately. But the men were naming any one themselves with whom they wished to deal, they would have the same option to deal with him, only they must deal with the same individual for the season.

15,220. Would you give a similar guarantee to a merchant whom the men named themselves?-Yes.

15,221. Do you do that in order that the families of the men may be able to live during the fishing season-Yes.

15,222. But it is only in the event of a man requiring these advances that you give such a guarantee, or require them to go to such a shop?-They all require it.

15,223. Are none of them able to live upon their own resources?- Plenty of them; but still they come for their supplies. There was an instance of that occurred with me only eight days past on Saturday. A man who had been in my employment for two or three years had been engaged two or three weeks before to go to the fishing for the rising season, and he came on Saturday and asked for supplies. I asked him where he wished them from, and he said Hay & Co.'s, and I gave him an order to go there. After giving it to him, he came and asked me for some cash. I told him thought it was rather early to come and ask for cash for the rising season, and that he could hardly have spent the money he had got from me at settlement. After a good deal of pressure, he said that about the time he had settled with me he had got some money from his son, and he had added it to the money he had from me, and had put it into the bank, and he did not like to draw it out again. Therefore it is not altogether from necessity that they get these supplies.

15,224. But they all take them as a matter of course?-Yes. There are some men who always get them, and the other men would think they were not so well treated if they did not get them also.

15,225. Then the necessity of making these advances to the men is one of the elements which the merchant must take into account in making his arrangements for the season?-To some extent it must be.

15,226. Is it not an element in fixing the price which the men are to get, that the merchant has to make advances of that description?- Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.

15,227. In the Faroe trade do the men get exactly the same price for their fish which the merchant realizes?-Yes, and something more.

15,228. Why do you give more?-Just because we are obliged to do it. This year I am paying more than I can get. I am bound to pay the currency, as it is called; and if the currency is higher than I realize for the fish, I am still bound to pay it.

15,229. Have you not been able to sell up to the current price this year?-No. I did not accept the price which was offered to me at one time, thinking the fish would be higher, but instead of being higher they fell. I did not sell until after the men were settled with.

15,230. Are you agent or owner of the fishing smack 'Gondola'?- Yes.

15,231 What was the amount of earnings of the men employed in that vessel last season?-The men's earnings in 1871 were about £19 or £20, on an average, for the season.

15,232. Was that the whole proceeds that were paid from the catch of the 'Gondola'?-Yes.

15,233. Was that the sum of which the men received payment after the necessary deductions?-The sum which each man receives varies according to his position [Page 386] in the vessel. The master received £42, 11s. 3d.; the mate received £25, 8s. 10d.; one man received £21, 6s., and the others ran from that to £19, 13s. 6d., if they were there the whole season, according to the amount of their score-money.

15,234. What was the amount credited to each sharesman for the value of his share of the fish?-It varied from £19, 13s. 6d. to about £21, 6s. for an ordinary sharesman. The score-money makes a little difference between one sharesman and another.

15,235. What was the amount of the share apart from the score-money?-It was £14, 4s. 7d. for the Faroe fishing. That was for the period when they were paid by shares; but there was a part of the season when they were paid by wages, when they were upon an Iceland voyage.

15,236. What was the number of the crew?-There were fourteen during the Faroe fishing. Of these, nine were full sharesmen, and the others varied from threequarters to half a share. There were 121/4 shares altogether, and the whole proceeds of the fishing would be divided by that.

15,237. What was the total take of fish?-20 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. 21 lbs.

15,238. Was that a fair average fishing for the season?-No, it was rather a poor season. I daresay it was fully an average for last year; but it was a poor fishing, taking other years into account. We would not consider it a paying season.

15,239. Who classes the quality of the fish?-It is generally the merchant. We usually send the first-class fish to Spain, and the other cod go to the home market.

15,240. You charge 52s. 6d. as the cost price for curing. Is that by arrangement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No.

15,241. Is it rounded upon an estimate of the actual expense of curing for the year?-We cannot ascertain every particular with regard to the expense of curing the fish and bringing them into market; but I am certain we are charging under the rate which it actually costs us, including wages, salt, material, and a great many other things that have to be embraced in it. We have often to include coffee and other things supplied to the women at the beach.

15,242. Are the people employed in your curing establishment paid by weekly wages or by fees for the season?-They are not paid in that way at all. Here [showing in book] is the account of a man, Arthur Leask, who employs some women from the mainland. I make a contract with him for the curing of the fish. He generally gives an order to the women, and I pay them what is contained in that order.

15,243. Is that the way in which most of your curing business is managed?-Yes.

15,244. Do you cure at the island of Linga?-Yes. Here [showing] is another account with people who have been curing for me for a number of years. I entered into the contract first with Laurence Thomson; he died and left the farm, and then John Thomson took it, and now Miss Thomson has it.

15,245. Is the work all done in contract with them?-Yes.

15,246. Do they give orders to their employés in the same way as Leask?-I think they manage it themselves, both there and at Linga, with the exception of the washing.

15,247. Do you pay them in cash?-Yes.

15,248. Have you any transactions with the people employed by them?-No.

15,249. Had they an account for goods in any shop?-Not so far as I am aware.

15,250. In what way are the people paid whom Leask sends to you with orders?-They are paid in cash altogether.

15,251. Have you a written agreement with your Faroe fishers?- Yes; I have a separate one for each smack every year.

15,252. Do you stipulate in that agreement what deductions are to be made?-Yes; at least that is done generally. The deductions, including the expenses of curing and bringing the fish to market, and master's and mate's fees, score-money, and cost of bait, are made from the gross proceeds, and then the balance is divided into two-one half going to the men, and the other to the owners.

15,253. Is there not a deduction for commission?-No; that is generally just an understanding.

15,254. What is that understanding?-That a commission is to be charged. In the account I have produced for the 'Gondola' commission and guarantee are charged at 5 per cent.,

15,255. Do the men at settlement see, or desire to see, the bills of sale?-They have never done so in any case.

15,256. Do they sometimes complain that they did not see them, or make any complaints about the price of the fish?-They are always grumbling; but they never made any direct complaint to me on the subject. In order to save a good deal of that trouble, the North Sea Fishing Co. have produced their accounts, but very frequently they have begun to settle with their fishermen at the currency before the accounts were ready.

15,257. Do the company produce their bills of sale to the men?- They are bound to do it if the men call for them.

15,258. Are you connected with that company?-I am a director of it. Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co., is the agent.

15,259. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the fishermen generally see the bills of sale of that company?-I cannot tell. That is a matter which is left in the hands of Mr. Irvine.

15,260. Are the men frequently in debt to you at the commencement of the fishing season?-No. There were some men who left me in debt last year, and they have gone elsewhere,-I don't know where. In fact I would rather get clear of a man who is in debt, and take my chance of getting my debt from him afterwards, than employ him again, unless he was a very good man.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, examined.

15,261. Are you a provision merchant in Lerwick?-I am. I have been in business for eleven years.

15,262. Do you deal in anything else but provisions?-Nothing of any consequence. Sometimes I get a little cottons, or small wares as we call them.

15,263. Do you sometimes purchase soft goods over the counter?-I used to do it; but I have not done so for the last twelve or eighteen months.

15,264. Why did you give it up at that time?-There were several reasons for it. I did not think it was a nice thing to do; and sometimes it was more bother than it was all worth.

15,265. You probably found your other business increasing?-It was not for that reason that I gave it up. I got more humbug by it than all the good it was.

15,266. How were you humbugged by it?-I would sometimes take goods in that had perhaps been stolen, and I lost them altogether. It was a kind of broker's business that I did.

15,267. Did you do a good deal of that business at one time?-Not much.

15,268. But still you were a broker to some extent?-It was not worth speaking of.

15,269. What kind of goods were you in the habit of getting in that way?-Various sorts of goods, such as wearing apparel. There was nothing else that I recollect of particularly just now.

15,270. Did you sometimes get cottons and other goods that were not made up into wearing apparel?-Not that I remember.

15,271. I thought you said you had dealt to some extent in cottons and calicoes?-I got them from the south along with my other goods.

15,272. Did you sometimes lay in a small stock of these?-Yes.

15,273. Have you never purchased any cotton, or [Page 387] calicoes, or dress stuffs not made up, from people at your counter?-I cannot recollect just now. I had a small book in which I entered these purchases.

15,274. Have you got that book with you?-I have not seen it for the last six months.

15,275. You will go for that book, and show it to me here?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, LAURENCE THOMPSON, examined.

15,276. Are you a seaman in Lerwick?-I am.

15,277. Have you gone frequently on sealing and whaling voyages from this port?-Yes.

15,278. By what agent, have you been engaged?-I have gone from them all.

15,279. Did you have an account for outfit and supplies from the agent who engaged you every time you went?-Yes.

15,280. When did you go first?-In 1858.

15,281. Did you go as a green hand then?-Yes.

15,282. Where did you get your outfit?-From Mr. Leask.

15,283. Did you settle for it at the end of the voyage?-Yes.

15,284. Did you manage to pay it up the first year?-Yes; and I had 5s. clear.

15,285. Did you ask on that occasion for payment of part of your earnings in cash?-Yes; when I came home I got the 5s. which I had clear. I had had all the rest in goods.

15,286. Did you not want to let part of the goods stand on an account?-No.

15,287. You wanted to pay it all up and to be clear?-Yes.

15,288. Did you continue to engage with Mr. Leask for some years after that?-For two years; and then I went to Mr. Tait.

15,289. Why did you go to him then?-Partly because I wanted a longer voyage; I wanted to go to Davis Straits.

15,290. Had Mr. Leask no ships going the long voyage that year?-Yes.

15,291. Could you not have got a berth from him?-Yes, if I had asked for it.

15,292. Why did you not ask for it?-I did not just incline.

15,293. Why did you not incline?-I had no particular reason for it.

15,294. Had you run up an account with Mr. Leask the year before?-Yes.

15,295. Had you left him clear?-Yes; and I had got £2 in cash.

15,296. Had you a second payment of oil-money to get that year?-Yes.

15,297. Did you get payment of that in money?-Yes.

15,298. Was that before or after you had engaged with Mr. Tait?- It was before.

15,299. How long did you continue with Mr. Tait?-I went five voyages with him.

15,300. Did you get all your supplies during that time from him?- Yes, whatever I asked or wanted.

15,301. Did you always get your balances paid to you in cash?- Yes.

15,302. Had you no difficulty in getting that?-No; whenever I asked them I always got them.

15,303. Were you not sometimes asked to take them in goods?- No. They would ask you if you wanted anything, but that was all; and I got my things as good there as at any other place.

15,304. Had you not, in one of these years, to ask more than once for the money?-No, not to my recollection. If I asked for the money I always got it.

15,305. Was it paid to you in Mr. Tait's office beside the shop?- Yes. I went through the shop into the office, and Mr. Tait settled with me there.

15,306. Did he or any of his people always ask you if you wanted any goods when you went to get your settlement?-No, he did not ask me; but sometimes they would ask me if I wanted anything when I came out from settlement. We could either take it or leave it, any way we liked.

15,307. In some of these years, were there a great number of men going to Greenland?-Yes.

15,308. Were there sometimes more than there were berths for?- Yes.

15,309. But you never lost a berth?-No; whenever I asked it I got it.

15,310. Were you not known to the agents to be a good seaman, and were you not always on good terms with them?-I never was on bad terms with them, and I always got a berth when I wanted it.

15,311. But you always had an account with your agent?-Yes.

15,312. And a good lot of supplies?-Sometimes not very much, but sometimes I had a good lot.

15,313. Do you think the fact of your having a pretty large account had anything to do with your always getting a berth?-I don't think it. Sometimes I would have a good account with one agent, and go to another agent and get a ship from him.

15,314. Did you not always take your supplies principally from the agent with whom you were engaging for the year?-Yes, principally.

15,315. You were five years with Mr. Tait; that would be down to 1866: who did you go to then?-I went back to Mr. Leask.

15,316. Have you been engaged with him ever since?-No; I was with Mr. Tulloch in 1868.

15,317. Why did you leave Mr. Leask at that time?-I don't know. The ship was not in that I was going with, and I just shipped in another one.

15,318. Did you take your supplies from Mr. Tulloch that year?- Yes, whatever small things I wanted.

15,319. Had you been quite clear with Mr. Leask the year before, and got payment of your balance in money?-Yes. I got paid in the Custom House that year.

15,320. Was the amount of your account at Mr. Leask's shop deducted when they paid you at the Custom House?-Yes.

15,321. Then it was merely the balance that was paid to you there?-No; I got the full amount, and paid them back.

15,322. Did you go down to the shop and pay them back there?- Yes.

15,323. Had you seen your account at the shop before?-Yes.

15,324. Is that the way in which you have been settled with ever since?-Yes.

15,325. You see your account beforehand, and then go up to the Custom House, get payment of the cash, and then you bring down the money and settle your account?-Yes.

15,326. When you left the shop after seeing your account and went up to the Custom House, were you told to come back and pay your account the same day?-Yes.

15,327. You were always reminded of that?-Yes.

15,328. And when you came back to pay your account, were you asked if you wanted any more goods?-No. I did not buy anything unless I chose.

15,329. Do you generally get your last payment of oil-money in cash, or in goods?-In cash; but if I want them, I can get it in goods.

15,330. Do you sometimes want it in goods?-Sometimes we may take some trifling things on it if we want them, but if not we get it all in money.

15,331. Have you any reason to complain of having to go to the Custom House and then to go down to the shop and pay your money?-No.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, recalled.

15,332. You have now produced to me the book containing your transactions in the brokery line: are all [Page 388] your transactions in that business entered there?-Yes, so far as I know.

15,333. These transactions do not appear to have amounted, on the whole, to more than two or three per month on an average?- There might be that in some months, but in other months there would be nothing. It was a rare case when I bought anything in that way at all; it was merely when anything was brought to me that I thought worth buying.

15,334. Were these articles paid for in cash or in provisions?- In cash first, and then the people might spend it in provisions afterwards. I have seen me get all the money back again before they went out.

15,335. Have you known many instances of knitters bringing goods or articles of dress to you and selling them?-I never questioned them about that. If they came with an article, I asked their name and the price, but that was all. I have also asked them if they were sure it was not stolen; I was very particular about that.

15,336. Have they ever told you that the goods they were selling were goods that they had got for knitting?-I recollect them saying once or twice that they had taken them for their hosiery, but they took money from me when I bought the goods from them.

15,337. But they told you they had got these goods for hosiery?- They had perhaps got them out of certain shops; but I believe they had generally got them on credit, until they had something made which would pay for them.

15,338. Were these women employed in knitting?-Yes; but there were only one or two cases of that kind.

15,339. But you have known two or three cases in which women, known to you to be knitters, came with goods in that way and sold them?-Yes, they would say they had got them from so and so; but I don't recollect any particular party.

15,340. Can you point to any of these transactions in the book?- No; I don't recollect whether the articles that were entered in the book were got from knitters or from other parties. Sometimes they wanted cash for their goods, because they could not get cash at the shop where they were dealing.

15,341. But, in these circumstances, the people who were refused the cash got the goods, as you understood at the time?-Yes, I understood so.

15,342. And they took the goods, and brought them to you and got the cash?-Yes.

15,343. Did you know that these goods were got at a shop where hosiery was taken?-I cannot tell; I never asked about that. They may have said so but perhaps that might have been false.

15,344. Did they give the name of any party from whom they had got the goods?-No; they just said they had got the goods when they could not get the cash.

15,345. May that have been said half a dozen times?-Not so many. I only recollect hearing of it once or twice.

15,346. Do you say that it has not happened half a dozen times in the ten or eleven years that you have been in business?-I don't recollect it happening so often as that. I just recollect hearing it spoke about.

15,347. Do people sometimes come to you yet offering articles for sale, although you have given up that part of your business?-Yes, occasionally; but not so much now as before I gave it up.

15,348. Do you not sometimes take them still?-I don't think I have taken any since the 1st entry in the book on April 15, 1870.

15,349. Are you quite sure that you have never bought any article at all in your shop since then?-Not that I recollect.

15,350. Would you be likely to forget if you had done it?-I don't know; but I have not done it, so far as my recollection goes. I have once bought a jacket which I wore myself; but it was from a friend, a party that I knew, and it was not a thing that I was in the way of buying.

15,351. Can you swear that you have not had more than half a dozen applications, in the whole course of your business, from women whom you knew or supposed to be knitters, asking you to give them money or provisions for goods which they had got for their hosiery?-They never asked provisions for them. If they wanted provisions, they took them out afterwards; they just asked for the cash, and I gave them what I thought the article was worth to me.

15,352. Do you swear that you have not had more than half a dozen such applications in the course of your business?-I don't recollect more than one or two. Of course, I did not ask them pointedly where they had got the articles, or how they had got them, except merely that I wished to know that the articles had not been got in a dishonest way.

15,353. But I see that a great number of the entries in the book relate to transactions with females?-Yes.

15,354. Can you swear that the majority of these women were not knitters who were in the habit of dealing with hosiery shops, and who came to you and got cash for the goods which they had got there?-That might have been so, but I really cannot say.

15,355. Can you swear that one out of every two of these women did not come and sell goods to you which she had got in that way?-She might have got them in that way, but I cannot tell.

15,356. Were most of the purchases which you made, of new articles or of old?-The greater part of the things had been worn.

15,357. Do you think there was any other way in which the women got these articles, except by getting them from the hosiery shops?-Certainly.

15,358. Were there some of them which had been got at the agents' shops where the women were supplied, while the men were away at the fishing?-They might have had accounts at these shops, and got goods there in part payment for the men's wages.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA DALZELL, examined.

15,359. Do you live in Scalloway Road, Lerwick?-Yes.

15,360. Have you been in the habit of knitting and selling your goods, or have you knitted with your own wool?-I have both knitted with merchants' wool and with wool of my own.

15,361. Have you knitted for a long time, and had a great deal of experience in it?-I have knitted for about thirty-two or thirty-three years. During that time I have knitted mostly with my own wool.

15,362. How have you been paid for your hosiery?-Either in money or goods.

15,363. Have you ever been paid altogether in money?-Yes, often.

15,364. Is it not the usual way in Lerwick to pay for hosiery in goods only?-Yes, that is generally the way in which most of them do.

15,365. Why has an exception been made in your case?-I don't think any exception has been made with me. Whenever I brought a good article to the merchants I asked money for it, and when I thought it was an inferior article I never thought of asking for money.

15,366. Was it generally very fine articles that you knitted?-Not particularly fine, but I have sometimes knitted very fine articles.

15,367. Was it only for the very fine articles that you got the money?-It was only for them that I asked the money.

15,368. How much was the largest sum you got at one time?-I think I have got as much as £5 at one time from Mr. Arthur Laurenson, but I am not sure; his books will show.

15,369. Did you get that money for one article?-Not for one article. It was for a number.

15,370. Was it on an account with him that you got that?-Yes; but I do not remember the exact sum.

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15,371. What did you get it for?-There was a cloak and several other articles, and the balances upon several shawls which I had been leaving with him.

15,372. For what purpose did you get so much money?-I cannot remember exactly. I had a reason at the time for asking so much, but I don't remember asking the money when I sold the articles.

15,373. But you had a special reason for wanting that money?- Yes. I would rather not mention what it was, unless it is necessary.

15,374. Did you tell Mr. Laurenson the reason?-Yes.

15,375. Did you get all the money that was due to you at that time?-Yes. I sent a girl who was living in my house at the time to Mr. Laurenson for the cash, and he sent the balance by her, and a line along with it to show that he had paid it.

15,376. Was there not a discount taken off because you had got it in cash?-There was nothing taken off.

15,377. What was the next largest sum that you got at any one time?-I have got £3 at one time from Mr. Robert Linklater.

15,378. Was there any special reason for that?-I got it for a very fine cloak which I sold to him.

15,379. Did you sell it to him for a money price?-I sold it, and asked the money, and got it from him there and then.

15,380. Did you ever get as much as that on any other occasion?- No; but I have often got £2, which is generally considered the price of a good cloak.

15,381. Did you sell it to them for that in cash?-Yes.

15,382. Did you ever get money when you knitted for any merchant

15,383. How much did you get then?-I can scarcely remember. I knitted at one time for Mr. Gilbert Harrison, and I always got money from him when I asked it, whether it was a large sum or a small sum. The firm is now Harrison & Sons, but it was before young Mr. Harrison's time that I got that money. I don't think they deal in hosiery now; at least I have not dealt with them for a long time.

15,384. Have you dealt with any other merchant and got money in such large sums as that?-I once had a transaction with Mr. Wm. Johnston, and I asked in money and £1 in goods, and I got it.

15,385. There was a letter sent to me in which it was stated that you could tell me a story about a certain merchant in town: do you know anything about that letter?-No. I was wondering who had mentioned my name to you.

15,386. [Shown letter dated 9th January 1872, and signed W. Linklater.] Do you know that handwriting?-I do not, but I know what it refers to. It was merely a private thing that I was telling to another party about having taken some hosiery to a merchant.

15,387. Do you know the party who writes the letter?-I don't think I do.

15,388. What does the letter refer to?-I bought some stockings from a merchant in Lerwick, and I was selling some shawls to him, but he did not like to take hosiery in return for his stockings. He said he would take one half money and one half shawls, and I went home, and I think it was either 20s. or 30s. that I got from my husband to pay one half of the price.

15,389. What quantity of hosiery had you bought?-I think it was rather more than £2 worth.

15,390. Was that for your own family?-No. It was for a party who had sent to me for some hosiery, and I went to that merchant's shop for it.

15,391. Do you sometimes deal in hosiery yourself?-I sometimes send work south, but I oftener sell it here. It is a long time since that affair happened; and I think the price came to nearly £3, but I don't remember the amount.

15,392. How long ago was it?-Perhaps 12 years ago, or perhaps not so much.

15,393. Was it the practice at that time, as it is now, to pay for hosiery in goods?-Yes.

15,394. But when you bought hosiery, was it understood you were to pay for it in cash?-There was no understanding about it. I just went to the shop for the stockings, and the merchant agreed to take one half of the payment in hosiery and the other half in cash, which I paid to him. I asked his reason for doing that, and he said that by taking the hosiery it was turning his goods twice over for only one profit.

15,395. Was that the only transaction you ever had with that merchant?-I had plenty of transactions with him before, but not many after.

15,396. Do you sometimes buy a great quantity of wool?-Yes; but it is very difficult to get the best wool.

15,397. Where do you buy it?-Sometimes from country merchants, generally from Fetlar. I get some worsted from William Tulloch, Fetlar. I generally pay 4d. a cut for it. The finest is 6d. a cut; that is the kind which is used in making fine shawls and fine cloaks in Shetland.

15,398. You don't buy it in wool yourself, but in worsted?-Yes. There are some of the people in Lerwick who buy it in fine wool, and send it to the country to be spun, before they can get it really fine.

15,399. Are they not able to buy the finest worsted in the shops in Lerwick?-I never could do so.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, GEORGE JAMIESON, examined.

15,400. Have you a farm at North Roe, on the estate of Busta?- Yes. I have only had one crop there.

15,401. Have you been a fisherman?-Yes, all my life.

15,402. Whom did you fish for?-I have fished for different people in my time. When I was on Messrs. Hay's property I fished for them; but they suspended me from fishing, and I would not go again. They wanted to put me into a boat with some old men. I would not agree to that, and I lost my fishing for four years.

15,403. Were you at liberty to fish for whom you pleased?-I was not. They stopped other fish-curers from taking me during these four years.

15,404. How did they do that?-I offered to go for different men, and they would not take me for fear of Mr. Greig, Messrs. Hay's factor at North Roe.

15,405. Are the tenants on the Gossaburgh estate bound to fish for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes. I was bound to do so all the time I was there. One year I agreed with Mr. Anderson, Hillswick, to go to the fishing for him, and I came with my share of fishing lines, but he would not give his men a share of lines to make up the fishing with; and he gave us an old boat that we would not risk our lives in, and he would not give us any meal.

15,406. Are you also employed in keeping paupers?-Yes, I have two old women-one from the parish of Lerwick, and one from the parish of Northmaven. I have £8 for the one from Northmaven. I only had 13s. for five months for the pauper who belonged to Lerwick, but now they have given me 1s. 6d. a week, which comes to £3, 18s. a year.

15,407. Who pays you these sums?-Mr. Greig.

15,408. Does he pay you for both the paupers?-Yes.

15,409. Does he keep the post office?-No; but they put the money into his hands, and most of it has been taken out in truck. He refuses to give me any money except a mere trifle.

15,410. Whom did you make your bargain about these paupers with?-One was with Mr. Johnston of Lerwick, and the other was with Mr. Bruce at Urrafirth.

15,411. Do you not receive post-office orders or money from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Johnston for the maintenance of these paupers?-It comes to Mr. Greig; I cannot say how it comes.

15,412. Have you ever asked that the money should be sent to you direct?-No.

15,413. Is Mr. Greig a member of the parochial board of Northmaven parish?-I believe he is.

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15,414. But he is not a member of the Lerwick parochial board?- No.

15,415. How does he happen to pay you money for Lerwick parish?-They send it to him.

15,416. Have you ever asked him for the whole of that money in cash?-No.

15,417. Why?-Because he seemed that he would not pay it in cash.

15,418. How did he seem so?-He said he would not do so, and that there was no use of him taking the trouble if I would not take the greater part of it out in truck.

15,419. When did he say that to you?-He has said it to me several times. He said it some time after I got the first pauper, who belonged to Northmaven. That is about two years back.

15,420. Did he say it to you when you went for the first payment?-Yes.

15,421. Had you not run up an account at his shop before the money was due?-I had not.

15,422. Did you owe him anything then?-I owed him nothing. He was my landmaster then, but I did not owe him anything.

15,423. Is that money paid quarterly?-It is paid monthly here.

15,424. Did you ever ask Mr. Greig for a monthly payment in cash?-I did not.

15,425. Why?-I cannot tell. I suppose it was because we always had his shop to go to for things that we required for the paupers, and we thought we need not ask for cash.

15,426. Were you not always due him as much as the monthly payment before it became due?-I was not.

15,427. Were you not due him something?-Yes, a small thing, but not the whole of the money.

15,428. Did you ever ask him for the balance in money?-Yes.

15,429. Did you get it?-Yes.

15,430. Then, when was it that Mr. Greig said he could not give it to you in money, but that you must take it out in truck?-Just when they sent the paupers to me.

15,431. Are you sure there was not something due to Mr. Greig then for supplies to the paupers?-There was nothing due.

15,432. Had you not got any supplies from him for these women before the first payment was due?-Yes, I got what I wanted whenever I asked it.

15,433. Then there was something due to him for that?-Yes; he never refused to give me anything for them as soon as I came for it.

15,434. There was something due to him for these supplies at the time when the first monthly payment became due?-Yes, but not to the whole amount of it.

15,435. Why did you say that you were not due him anything?-I had to take out the things because I could not get the money.

15,436. Did you ask him for the balance?-I did.

15,437. How much was there due to you at that time?-I cannot tell, because we don't keep accounts.

15,438. Have you no pass-book?-No.

15,439. Did Mr. Greig actually say to you that you must take your payment in truck?-He said we must take part of it in truck, and that he would not pay it all in money.

15,440. Did he use the word truck?-Yes.

15,441. Did he not say that you were to take part of it in goods?- Goods were the same as truck, and he meant that we were to take meal or tea, or anything, out of his shop.

15,442. But what did he actually say?-He said we must take goods out of his shop for part of the money, because he could not pay it all in money. He said that the first time I went to him.

15,443. When did he say it again?-He said it very often.

15,444. When did he say it last?-This winter.

15,445. Where did he say it?-In his shop at North Roe.

15,446. Were you asking for money at that time?-Yes. I asked him then for the 13s. which came for the pauper from Lerwick, and he said he would give me that, but that he need not have the trouble of paying it all down in money.

15,447. Had you not got a lot of supplies at that time?-No.

15,448. Do you swear that, when you asked him for the 13s., you were owing him nothing for supplies?-I was owing him nothing.

15,449. Had you got any supplies from him before that?-I had got nothing from him for the pauper from Lerwick.

15,450. But had you got supplies for your own household?-I had; but I was due him nothing.

15,451. Had all the supplies that you had got from Mr. Greig for other parties up to that time been paid for?-They were all paid for when I asked for the 13s.

15,452. Had you any account due at the-shop at that time?-I cannot tell. I don't think it. There could be nothing due.

15,453. You said just now that all the supplies you had ever got were paid for at that time?-They were paid for.

15,454. And then you say in the next sentence that you cannot say whether they were paid for or not?-I asked for nothing for this woman until the came.

15,455. Do you keep a separate account for every woman that you have?-I believe we do.

15,456. Do you know anything about your accounts?-I don't know a great deal about them.

15,457. Are you sure that Mr. Greig has told you that you must take part of your payment for the paupers in goods?-Yes.

15,458. Is not all that he has done merely to keep part of the money that was already due to him for supplies which you had got?-He said he would not pay it all in money. That is all I have got to say about it.

15,459. Did he not say that he would not give it all to you in money because you were due him something for supplies you had already got?-I was never due Mr. Greig anything.

15,460. Had you not got supplies from him before he said that?-I had got supplies, but they never ran up to the sum which I had to get payment of from him. There was always money due to me.

15,461. Were you ever due Mr. Greig anything at all?-I was not.

15,462. Did you not owe him money for the supplies you had got?-We never sought supplies that would run up to the sum which we had to get. There was always something in his hand.

15,463. Do you understand what it is to be due a man money?- Yes.

15,464. Do you understand that you are due a man money when you have got goods from him and not paid for them?-I know that.

15,465. Were you not due Mr. Greig money when you had got these goods and had not paid for them?-I was.

15,466. Was it not at the time when you were due him money for these supplies that he said he could not give you the money which was due for the paupers?-He said, first of all, that we were not to ask all money when we were due him for goods.

15,467. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.

15,468. You have given your evidence in such a manner, that I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT IRVINE, examined.

15,469. Are you a broker in Lerwick?-I am a general dealer. I deal in new as well as second-hand goods.

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15,470. Do you deal in provisions?-Very little; mostly in soft goods.

15,471. Do you make many purchases of soft goods and wearing apparel over your counter?-Of wearing apparel, but not of hosiery.

15,472. Do you sometimes purchase articles which are not made up, such as cotton?-Yes, and new articles too. If a man buys an article that does not fit him, and he comes back to me with it, I will take it from him and sell him another, or give him the cash.

15,473. Is this [showing] the book in which you enter all your transactions?-Yes.

15,474. Are women in the practice of selling goods to you which they have got in the shops?-There is very little of that done. I cannot say that I ever recollect a case of it.

15,475. Have you many transactions with women?-Very few. It is mostly men's apparel that I get.

15,476. I see that in your book most of the entries are in the names of men?-Yes; I always deal with men, except on rare occasions.

15,477. Are you the only broker of this kind in Lerwick?-I think I am the principal one; I have a licence as a broker.

15,478. Can you say that you have not had any transactions with women who might have been knitters, and who were disposing of goods which they had got for their hosiery?-I cannot tell exactly. Sometimes they may have come in with goods which they had got in that way, but it is very little of that kind of thing that comes my way.

15,479. Have you had many dealings with women whom you knew to be knitters?-Very few. I don't know that I recollect a single case. As I have said, it is generally men's work that I get.

15,480. Do you enter every transaction which you have in the book which you have produced?-Every one.

15,481. Is it not possible that some purchases of that kind from women are not entered in it?-No; I do not want to omit them, because I want to punish them if they are rogues.

15,482. But these women will be perfectly honest in making such sales?-Yes, but I don't think there has ever been such a case in my business.

15,483. Have you ever bought any lines from women?-I never saw one offered; and even if it had been offered, I would not have bought it or meddled with it at all.

15,484. Do you know anything at all about the lines?-I don't recollect ever seeing one in my life because I am not in the way of it.

15,485. Have you heard of them?-I have heard of them repeatedly.

15,486. I suppose the trade of a broker is not a very flourishing one in Lerwick?-No, it is very dull; but I am a dealer also, and can make up things otherwise, which helps me through.

15,487. Do you know whether that business of buying second-hand articles is practised by any people who act as hawkers and who hawk through the country?-I don't know of any people who do that.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, FRANCIS GIFFORD, examined.

15,488. Are you a seaman, living in Bressay?-I am.

15,489. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for a good many years?-Yes, I went there during the first years of my time, and then I went south; but afterwards I have been at the sealing and whaling again.

15,490. Have you always engaged with some agent in Lerwick?- Yes, I have engaged with them all except Mr. Tulloch; I never went out from him.

15,491. Have you always received payment of your wages on your return from the voyage?-Yes, for the last three or four years I have always got my money at the Custom House.

15,492. Before the regulations were introduced according to which you were paid at the Custom House, did you settle with the agent at his shop?-Yes.

15,493. Did you always get your money on these occasions?-Not exactly.

15,494. Had you an account then for outfit and supplies?-Yes.

15,495. Did you always get the balance that was due?-Yes, I got it, but very little money.

15,496. Was that because you had a large account?-I don't know.

15,497. Do you remember some years ago being engaged by Mr. Joseph Leask on a voyage to what is called the west-ice?-Yes.

15,498. Is that in Davis Straits?-No, it is to the northward.

15,499. Do you remember applying for your wages in money in that year?-Yes.

15,500. Did you get it at once whenever you asked for it?-Yes.

15,501. Did you sail in the same vessel again that year?-Yes; but Mr. Leask was not for me going in her again, because I had got my money. If it had not been for the captain I would not have got with the vessel, but he said he would have me. The vessel was the 'Camperdown,' and that occurred in 1866.

15,502. What was Mr. Leask's reason for not engaging you for that vessel?-I don't know.

15,503. You said it was because you got your money?-I believe Mr. Leask thought I was for the double voyage, but I was only for the single voyage; and when I came home after the first voyage I got settled with him, because at that time I was intending to go south. I came over and got my money, but before the end of the week the vessel returned again, going to Davis Straits, and I went up to see if I could get a chance to go in her. When Captain Bruce told me to go and get my things and come with the vessel again, Mr. Leask was wild, and said I should not get a chance.

15,504. Had you intended at first not to go on the second voyage that year?-I was anxious to go but I did not know that the Captain was to put me down for the double voyage.

15,505. Why was Mr. Leask wild?-I don't know; I suppose it was because he thought I was only for the single voyage, and I came over and got my money.

15,506. Would he not have given you your money if he had known you were going the other voyage?-I believe he would not.

15,507. How did you happen to ask for your money at that time? Is it not usual to ask for it after the first voyage?-When the men go for a single voyage, which lasts for about six weeks, they are cleared off when they go home; but when they go for the double voyage they cannot get their money until the end of the season. Mr. Leask thought I was shipped for the double voyage and that I would come over and draw the whole of my money at one time; but of course I did not know myself that I was for the double voyage until the captain came again and put me down for it.

15,508. Do men never draw their money at the end of the first voyage except when they are done with the ship for that season?- They do it now. As soon as their six weeks are over and they come back again, they draw their money; but they did not do that before.

15,509. Was it always the practice before to make only one settlement for the long voyage?-Yes.

15,510. Have you always got your money since 1866?-Yes.

15,511. Have you also incurred an account at the same time with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.

15,512. How is it settled?-It was settled at the end of the season.

15,513. Was it read over to you before you went up to the Custom House to get payment of your money?-Yes.

15,514. Was the balance written out in the books before you went up?-Yes.

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15,515. You went up and got your money from the Custom House from the agent or his clerk, and then you came down to the shop and paid your account?-Yes.

15,516. When you went to the shop in the first place, were you always told to come back and pay your account?-Yes.

15,517. Who tells you to do that?-The agent.

15,518. Have you always had your account clear at the end of the season, or have you sometimes been in debt to the shop?-I have always been clear.

15,519. Do you know that young hands are sometimes in debt to the shop at the end of the season?-Yes.

15,520. Has there sometimes been a difficulty in getting berths in the sealing and whaling vessels, in consequence of more men applying than were wanted?-Yes.

15,521. What kind of men are preferred in such circumstances; is it the best quality of men?-There are generally all sorts of hands-green hands, and able seamen, and ordinary seamen of all kinds.

15,522. When a man is in debt to an agent, do you think he has any better chance of getting a berth?-My partners think so. They think that if a man is in debt the agent will perhaps try to get him into a vessel, in order that he may be able to clear off his debt.

15,523. Do you know that they have done that?-Yes, I have seen it.

15,524. What have you seen?-I have seen agents getting men who were in their debt put into their ships.

15,525. Have you heard the captains complaining of the agents putting inferior men upon them for that reason?-I have. Captain Bruce of the 'Camperdown,' complained about that in 1866. He said to the men that Mr. Leask was putting hands into the ship that he did not like, and that he would have liked better hands.

15,526. Did he state the reason why he supposed Mr. Leask was doing that?-He did not tell us about the reason.

15,527. Then how did you know that that was the reason why Mr. Leask had put in inferior hands?-I knew they were men who were in debt to him.

15,528. Did you know that from the men themselves?-Yes, I knew it from several men; but I don't remember their names- they were men on board the 'Camperdown' that year along with me.

15,529. Did they tell you that their being in debt had given them a better chance of a berth?-Yes; and that when they were in debt they got a ship.

15,530. Was that a general understanding among them?-Yes.

15,531. Did you know of any better men who wished to go in that ship, but who were refused because they were not in debt?-No; but I know that if men are debt to the agent they will get a ship sooner than those who are clear with him.

15,532. But you have always got a ship although you were not in debt?-Yes.

15,533. Are you an able seaman?-Yes, I am a boat-steerer.

15,534. Do harpooneers and boat-steerers get a higher wage, and are they more sure of getting a berth than ordinary seamen?-Yes, they get higher wages, and are more in demand.

15,535. On the occasion you spoke of, when you went in the 'Camperdown' with Captain Bruce, it was to the captain that you owed your engagement, and not to the agent?-Yes.

15,536. If the agent had had his own way, would you have been engaged?-I would not.

15,537. Had you an account with the agent at that time?-No, I had some more money to get from him.

15,538. Had he not paid you up the whole of the money that was due to you on the sealing voyage?-No; there was a second payment of oil-money which I had to get.

15,539. Is it quite understood among the whalers, that when their money is paid to them at the Custom House they have to go down to the shops and pay it to the agents?-Yes; they quite understand that they have to clear the agent's books.

15,540. I suppose a man would not think of letting his account stand any longer?-No.

15,541. What would be the consequence if he did that?-I cannot say.

15,542. Would he get a berth next year?-He might get a berth next year, but it is best to have the books cleared.

15,543. But suppose a man had other accounts due, would he have to go and pay the agent first, and let his other accounts wait?-I don't know about that.

15,544. Does not a man go and pay the agent first, whether he has other people wanting his money or not?-As a rule, they go and pay the agent first.

15,545. Have you heard any of the men complain that they had to pay the agents in preference to other accounts which they wished to settle?-No.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER HALCROW, examined.

15,546. Are you a seaman?-Yes.

15,547. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for some years back?-Yes, for nine years.

15,548. What agents in Lerwick have you been engaged by?-The whole of them.

15,549. Did you always get your outfit from the agent you engaged with?-Yes, the most part of it.

15,550. And you settled your account with him at the end of the year?-Yes.

15,551. Had you always a balance to receive in money?- Generally. Once I had not; that was in my second year.

15,552. Have you always got any money that was due to you paid in cash?-No.

15,553. When did you not?-The first year I was out.

15,554. Was there something due to you that year?-Yes,

15,555. Did you ask for it to be paid to you?-Yes, at different times; but I did not get it. I was told that the agent had not got it himself, and that therefore I could not get it.

15,556. When did you return that year?-On 1st October.

15,557. How long was it after that before you got your money paid?-I never got it paid at all. I had to take goods for it out of Mr. Leask's shop.

15,558. Were you told to take goods?-No, he did not tell me to take them; but I had to take them when I could not get the money. I was in need of them.

15,559. Did you want the goods?-Yes, I was requiring things, and I got them there.

15,560. Did he say that you had better take goods, as the money had not come?-No, he did not say that. He only said it was not come every time I came and asked for it, and as I could not wait longer I just took the things I had to get.

15,561. How long was it after you returned before you began to take the goods?-About a month or five weeks.

15,562. How often had you asked for the money within that time?-Three or four times.

15,563. Were you offered the goods?-No, I was never offered them until I asked for them.

15,564. Did you say anything about not getting your money to the agent or any of his people?-No, I did not say anything.

15,565. Are you sure there was £4 due to you at that time?- There was £4, 10s. due when we left home from the owners, and 30s. from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, because we were shipwrecked.

15,566. Then there was no oil-money that year?-None.

15,567. Did you not get the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund in cash?-No.

15,568. Did you apply for it in cash?-Yes; I applied at the shop for it, and I got a very little cash, perhaps about £1 at one time and another-not all at once.

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15,569. Have you ever taken part of your earnings in goods since then?-Yes, I have done so almost every year that I have been out.

15,570. But that was just in the account which you opened when you went away?-Yes.

15,571. Did your people get any advances when you were absent from the agent with whom you shipped?-Yes; a little.

15,572. And they get any supplies anywhere else?-They generally got them from the agent.

15,573. Why was that?-I don't know; they just got them there.

15,574. Do you not get a month's advance when you leave?-We get a month's advance now. We don't get the money before we leave, but we get a ticket to be paid three days after the ship sails. We generally give it to the agent, and get a little money on it, but not to the full amount of the advance.

15,575. Do you not leave that ticket at home?-Some of the men leave them at home, and the value of them is got afterwards.

15,576. Why do you not do that?-Because I may want the money before I go away, and I get a part of it from the agent.

15,577. In that case you have to leave your ticket with the agent?-Yes, we have to give it up to him.

15,578. Do you not get allotment tickets when you leave?-I don't know them.

15,579. Can you not get half-pay tickets if you want them?-Yes.

15,580. Is it not the practice to get them?-Sometimes they get them if they ask for them.

15,581. Do you take them?-No.

15,582. Why?-I don't know. We generally just get what we want in money or in goods, as we ask for it.

15,583. Do the agents give these half-pay tickets whenever they are asked for?-Yes.

15,584. Would they prefer you not to take them, but to take goods instead?-I don't know about that. I have not been told so.

15,585. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.

15,586. Do you think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.

15,587. Was he correct in what he said about a man who was in debt to the agent getting a berth more readily than another?-Yes.

15,588. Have you known that in your own experience?-I got a ship when I was in debt in my second year.

15,589. Do you think you got it more easily because you were in debt?-I cannot say for that.

15,590. Have you heard men speaking about getting a ship more easily when they were in debt?-I have heard them talking about it, but still I don't know about it myself except on that one occasion.

15,591. Have you known any case like that which Francis Gifford mentioned, of inferior men being put on board a ship because they were in the agent's debt, in preference to better men?-I never knew of that, but still it may have happened. I wish to say that in 1866 I shipped in the 'Diana' of Hull, for the west ice in Davis Straits, and when we were out I was beset in her for thirteen months, and for seven months we were on short allowance. We have never been paid for that short allowance, although the men in Hull were paid for it.

15,592. Have you applied for that?-There is a man here who has applied for it. I think he applied to Mr. Charles Duncan, writer, and also to the sheriff.

15,593. Who was the agent from whom you thought you should have got it?-Mr. Leask.

15,594. Did you apply to him for the difference which you ought to have got in consequence of being put upon short allowance?- Yes; and he told us it was no use applying for it, because he did not think we would get it. I never asked Mr. Leask about that myself, but other men in Lerwick have done it.

15,595. Did they mention to him that the Hull men had got the difference paid to them?-Yes.

15,596. Did Mr. Leask offer to do anything for you in that case?- Not as far as I know; but I was away from home at the time when the men applied for it.

15,597. Do you think that has anything to do with your dealings at Mr. Leask's shop?-I don't think so, but I suppose Mr. Leask could have applied for it if he had liked.

15,598. Had you an account with him that year which you settled as usual at the end of the season?-Yes.

15,599. Did you not apply for the difference on the short allowance when you were settling that account?-Yes. They told me then that they did not know but what they might get it for us, but still they did not say that we would get it, and it has not come yet.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM LAURENSON, examined.

15,600. Are you a seaman living in Bressay?-Yes. I have been at the sealing and whaling for thirty-six years. I have got settled, and got my wages paid to me at the Custom House for some years back, but that was not done when I first went.

15,601. Before you were paid at the Custom House, did you not get payment of your wages?-I got no satisfaction of them. I very often did not see an account. I would come over from Bressay two or three different times wanting to get settled, but they would shove me off time after time, giving me perhaps 10s. or £1; but they would not settle with me.

15,602. Were you owing an account for supplies at that time?- I got supplies from the shop when I went on the voyage, but I always had balances of money to get. I never was in debt.

15,603. By what agents were you treated in that way?-They are long dead now.

15,604. Did that not continue till 1867, when the new regulations came into force, according to which you were paid at the Custom House?-Yes; the system continued much the same until then.

15,605. Were you put off in the same way from time to time down till 1867?-Yes; perhaps getting £1 or 10s. now and again.

15,606. What agents were you engaged by, five or six years ago?- I was engaged by Mr. Tait, and I was three years for Mr. Tulloch; but I was paid at the Custom House then.

15,607. Were you often engaged by Mr. Tait before 1867?-I would be engaged by him perhaps two years at a time, and then I would leave him and go to another, and then go back to him again.

15,608. Who else did you engage with?-I went out a long time for Messrs. Hay, and I was with Mr. Leask too.

15,609. When you went, until five years ago, to get a settlement of your account, were you always put off with £1 or 10s., or some supplies, if you wanted them?-I was put off now and again.

15,610. Did all the agents who employed you treat you in the same way?-Almost every one.

15,611. Did you not get a settlement with Messrs. Hay when you asked for it?-Yes; I got a fair settlement with Messrs. Hay when I went out from their shop.

15,612. Were you ever put off in the way you have mentioned when you were engaged by them?-No; and I was engaged by them for ten years.

15,613. When you went to Mr. Tait, did he settle with you when you asked for it, even before the new system?-Yes.

15,614. Did he ever put you off in that way?-No. I was out of his shop when his father was alive, and he settled with me in the same way.

15,615. Had you ever to ask him twice for your money?-No.

15,616. Did you get a settlement whenever you went there for it?-Yes.

15,617. Did you always get your money in full when you went over to ask for it from Mr. Leask?-I got what was due to me; but I generally had some things out of the shop before I went, and then I got the balance.

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15,618. Could you always get it at once without any difficulty?- Yes; I just asked for it and I got it.

15,619. Then who were the agents who put you off in the way you mentioned?-They are all dead long ago.

15,620. I thought you said the system of putting you off in that way, and of giving you £1 or 10s. at a time, continued till about five or six years ago?-Sometimes it did, and sometimes not. Some years I never got a fair account, and in other years I did.

15,621. But you always got a fair account from Messrs. Hay?- Yes.

15,622. And from Mr. Leask?-Yes.

15,623. And from Mr. Tait and Mr. Tulloch?-Yes.

15,624. What agents were there besides these, five or six years ago?-It is far longer than five or six years since I was put off in that way, and did not get the settlement when I wanted it.

15,625. Will it be ten years since you asked for your money and did not get it?-It will be ten years, or above that.

15,626. Will it be fifteen or twenty years ago?-It will be from fifteen to twenty years.

15,627. Are you a harpooneer or a boat-steerer?-I am a boat-steerer.

15,628. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.

15,629. Do you think he was generally correct in what he said?- Yes. I know quite well that men who were in debt to the agent could get a ship sooner than I could, who was clear with them.

15,630. Could a man do that although he was not so good a seaman?-Yes.

15,631. Was that a general belief among the men?-Yes. For my part, I never was indebted to any of the agents, and therefore I got a ship whenever wanted it.

15,632. Did you get a ship because you were not in debt?-Yes; it did not matter. I stayed in one ship for a long time.

15,633. Were the agents more willing to get a berth for a man who was not in their debt?-No.

15,634. Did they prefer to engage a man who was in their debt?- Yes; but there were not very many that would be in debt. Perhaps a young hand, who had been a year or two only at the whaling, and had small wages, would be in debt, and they would take him next year in order to clear off the accounts which he had left the year before.

15,635. Do you think the green hands were ready to get into debt in order to make sure of getting a berth next year?-I don't know about that.

15,636. Then what did you mean by saying that you never were in debt, and therefore you always got berth when you wanted it?-I only meant to say that always got a ship when I wanted one, but that I never was in debt to the agents; and therefore I cannot prove whether they would take me more readily if I was in debt. But I have heard the men saying that those who were in debt would be shipped as soon as the others.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ELIZABETH MORRISON, examined.

15,637. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

15,638. What do you do?-Anything that I can. I go errands or knit stockings, or anything of that sort.

15,639. Do you sometimes go about selling things?-I have sold three or four neckties to different people.

15,640. Do you not sell other kinds of goods?-No. If I sell anything, it is of my own.

15,641. Do you sell shop goods of different kinds?-No.

15,642. Do you mean that you do not go about the country and hawk goods?-I don't do that.

15,643. Did you ever get any shop goods from a knitter for the purpose of selling them or exchanging them for other things?- No; the neckties I sold I got ready money for.

15,644. It is not neckties I am speaking about at all. Have you not sold goods that you had got from knitting women for that purpose?-No, not for some years past.

15,645. Did you once do that?-Yes, some time ago.

15,646. How long ago?-I cannot remember.

15,647. A year ago?-It is about that.

15,648. Did you not make a living sometimes by getting goods from knitters and selling them again in the country?-No; I never was out of Lerwick in my time.

15,649. Did you sell them in Lerwick?-I sold some bits of dribblets of things that were not worth mentioning; but that was some time ago.

15,650. What was it that you sold?-It may have been three yards of cotton, or such as that.

15,651. Did you get such things pretty often from knitters?-No, not often.

15,652. When did you get them last?-It was a long time ago.

15,653. Was it six months ago?-It would be above that.

15,654. Would it be twelve months since you got anything of that kind to sell?-I cannot say.

15,655. You said you had perhaps sold three yards of cotton: whom did you sell it for?-I cannot remember.

15,656. Whom did you get it from?-I cannot remember.

15,657. Have you got it more than once?-Perhaps once or twice; but it is a long time ago now.

15,658. Do you think you may have got it three or four times?-I don't think I did.

15,659. What else did you get besides the three yards of cotton?- Nothing.

15,660. Did you never get a bit of cloth for a dress?-No.

15,661. Or a jacket?-No.

15,662. Or a pair of boots?-No.

15,663. Did you ever get any tea or sugar to sell?-No.

15,664. Do you swear that?-I do.

15,665. Do you swear that you never sold a quarter pound of tea in your life?-I do.

15,666. Did you never sell any sugar?-No.

15,667. Did you ever buy any except out of a shop?-I never bought any except what I bought out a shop for my ready penny.

15,668. Did you ever tell anybody that you had sold things for knitters?-No, I could not tell any one that.

15,669. Did you get that cotton from a woman who had got it for her knitting?-I don't know in what way she may have got it, but I got it from a woman. Who she was I cannot say, because she picked me up in the street and gave it to me.

15,670. Did you get it sold for her?-I did. I don't remember who bought it; it was some country person.

15,671. Do you not remember who the woman was that you got it from?-I cannot remember.

15,672. Did you know her?-I did not know her.

15,673. In what way did she ask you to sell it for her?-She asked me if I could get anybody to buy it, and I saw a country woman at my side, and she bought it.

15,674. Why did the woman ask you to get it sold?-I don't know.

15,675. Had you never seen her before?-Neither before nor since.

15,676. Have you any idea why she asked you to sell it?-No, I have no idea of that.

15,677. Do you think she had ever seen you doing the like before?-There is many an old person such as me who does errands for many a one.

15,678. Have you done errands of that kind at other times?-Yes, years and years ago.

15,679. May you have done so a good many times?-I don't know. It was very seldom I did it.

15,680. What did you get for that cotton?-I cannot remember now.

15,681. Was it money you got for it?-Yes.

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15,682. Did you pay the woman you got it from at the time?-Yes.

15,683. Had you not paid her for it before you sold it?-I gave her the money just as I got it from the woman at my side.

15,684. How long was it between the time when you got the cotton and the time when you sold it?-Perhaps a minute or five or ten minutes. The woman was just at my hand who bought it.

15,685. Why could the woman who gave it to you not have sold it herself?-I don't know.

15,686. How much did she give you for selling it?-A penny.

15,687. Did you ever get a penny for selling anything else?-No; I don't work in that way for my living.

15,688. Are you sure you never got a penny for selling any other article for a woman?-I have got many a penny at different times, but not in that exact way.

15,689. What else do you do for your living?-I live very meanly.

15,690. But do you never get any more than a penny for doing an errand now and then?-I have no idea of doing errands only for my living.

15,691. Is there anything else by which you make a living, except by going errands?-I am not going errands for ever. I sometimes sit and knit a stocking in my own room; that is all I do.

15,692. Do you sell your stockings?-No; they are just for myself.

15,693. Then they will not make it living for you?-No; but perhaps some of my friends might lift a hand to help me.

15,694. Do you live on charity?-Not altogether on charity.

15,695. You do run an errand for a penny now and then?-No, not I.

15,696. Why are you reluctant to tell me the truth?-I am not denying the truth.

15,697. You are not willing to answer my questions: why is that?-I have answered them so far as I know, and as far as I am able. I have no more to say than I have told you, and I have told you all the truth.

15,698. You say you do not make your living by charity, and you only get a penny now and then for running errands, but that is very seldom: is there any other way in which you make your living?- When a person wishes to lift their hand to me in charity, I take what they have to give me.

15,699. Do you swear that you don't make the principal part of your living by selling things in the town?-I don't make my living by that.

15,700. Do you swear that you don't sell something every day?-I don't sell something every day.

15,701. Don't you sell two or three things every week?-No; I am quite sure of that.

15,702. Have you sold anything this week?-No.

15,703. Did you sell anything last week or the week before?-No.

15,704. Did you sell anything last year?-I cannot remember what I did last year, for my memory is quite gone.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM B.M. HARRISON, examined.

15,705. Are you a partner of the firm of Harrison & Sons?-I am.

15,706. Your firm, I believe, are extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

15,707. In what form is the agreement you enter into with the men for that fishing?-The men agree, in the first place, to prosecute the fishing in a certain vessel, and to join the vessel any day when we may call upon them to do so, and proceed to the fishing to either Faroe, Iceland, Rockall, or any other place that the master may think most expedient, and to stay there as long as the master thinks fit, with the exception of the trips they may make home for landing any fish they may catch, or in case of accident or for any other good reason; in consideration of which services the fishermen have to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, etc., such as master's premium, 10s. per ton, mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and the cost of bait required for catching the fish. Along with that the men have to get eight pounds of bread per man per week and 9d. per score for the fish which each man takes, one half to be paid by the owners and the other half by the crew. That is the substance of the agreement. And then there are clauses for our safety, having reference to damage that may be done to the vessel or her gear, which the men bind themselves to pay for.

15,708. Is there a scale of victualling for the men in case the vessel goes to Iceland?-Yes. The agreement binds the men to fish according to it until the 20th August; and the next clause says that if the master or owner sees fit to leave Faroe for Iceland or for a late voyage, then the men agree to go upon the victuals and wages which are stated in the agreement.

15,709. Then in addition to the stipulations in the agreement, I understand the owner receives a commission of five per cent. on the whole proceeds of the voyage?-He is entitled to get it if he can, but very often we don't get it. This year we have got nothing.

15,710. Was that because the men objected to it?-We always try to pay as high as other people; but this year we have not made such good sales, and therefore we have not taken anything off, so that we might be able to give as much per ton as other people give. In other years, again, we may get two and a half or we may get five per cent, just as the fish sales turn out; and the men don't object to us getting it if we can.

15,711. Why is there no stipulation for a commission put into the agreement?-It has never been put into our agreements from the first.

15,712 Is it a usual thing to take it?-Yes, it is quite usual if we can get it; but we have to bear and haul with other people, and if the men would be dissatisfied with us taking it we have to give it up, and we would rather do so than have any words about it.

15,713. Was this not a good year in the Faroe fishing?-No, very indifferent.

15,714. What was the amount of a share in one of your smacks with an average take this year?-I should say about £18.

15,715. Was that sum larger than the ordinary, or would some of them be less or more?-We had some of them as high as £28 for a sharesman.

15,716. Were these in the larger smacks?-No; there were others as large, but less fortunate; and there were some of them much smaller, and they could not be expected to do so well.

15,717. Do the men ever ask for or get a sight of the bills of sale?-Yes. I have shown them to the fishermen this year.

15,718. Had you ever shown them to them before?-Yes. I had not shown them to every man, but I had shown them to the captain, who I expected would have more knowledge of the matter than the other men.

15,719. Do the men generally run accounts at your shop?-Yes; every one of them has an account.

15,720. Do you think they get most of the supplies for their families during the season from your shop?-I think they do. Perhaps there are two or three of them who want to look after their means better than the rest, and who have money lying beside them: these men may perhaps buy goods with cash, and not from our shop; but, as a rule, every one of them gets his supplies from us.

15,721. I believe the majority of your men are not in debt to you at settlement, but have a balance to receive in cash?-Yes. I think there are very few this year, and there were very few last year, who were in debt; and even with these men the amount of debt is very small.

15,722. Do you think the amount of debt was smaller than usual in the two years for which you have given [Page 396] returns, 1867 and 1871, or was it about an average?-That depends altogether upon the fishing. If it is not a total failure, the men are generally all clear of debt; but if a bad year comes in, then we cannot expect that.

15,723. How do you account for the fact that the men almost all take their supplies for the season from your shop in an account with you?-If they have no money, it is not likely that other people will give them supplies, unless they know them very well; and even if they have money, I always find that the men prefer to keep it and come to the shop again and take up goods.

15,724. Do they keep the money in their hands rather than pay for the goods in cash when they get them?-Yes, invariably. I have frequently noticed that practice among the men, and I have spoken to them about it. I have paid as much as £20 to a man at settlement, and then he would come into the shop and take out his outfit. I have asked them why they did so, and told them it would be better for them to pay for their goods with their own money, and then they would know what they were doing.

15,725. What was their answer to that?-They said they preferred to keep the money. It was always in their hand, and the goods could stand over for a year; and perhaps, if the next year's fishing is bad, they think we will allow it to stand for two years rather than push them for the price.

15,726. Would the men not get their goods cheaper if a system existed of paying in cash?-I don't think they would.

15,727. They might not get them cheaper as matters stand at present; but if they were, all willing to pay in cash, would it not be possible for you to give them their goods cheaper than you supply them upon credit?-I would not sell cheaper for cash. The goods are all marked in figures, and when they are paid for in cash they are charged at the same prices as when put down to the account. We have not two prices for our goods.

15,728. What proportion does your cash trade bear to your credit trade?-I should say that it is more than one third, but not one half.

15,729. In the answers you have given, are you speaking of the Faroe fishermen in your employment, or are you also referring to the home fishermen?-I have been speaking of the Faroe fishermen principally.

15,730. Where are the men employed by you in the ling fishing?- Most of them are situated in Sandwick parish.

15,731. Have they also accounts in your shop here?-Most of them have.

15,732. But not to the same extent per man as the Faroe men?- No; but we know exactly how much they are likely to gain, and therefore they are not allowed to exceed a certain sum.

15,733. Do you limit the credits of the men employed in the home fishing?-They limit their credits themselves, because they are grown-up men with families, and they know how far they should run their accounts. Of course, if they were running them further, we would limit them; but we rarely have to do that, because we know they must have the little which they do get.

15,734. Is not that the case with the Faroe fishermen also?-Yes; we limit them too.

15,735. But I understand you to say that the necessity for limiting the home fishermen is greater than in the case of the Faroe fishermen?-Yes.

15,736. Why is that?-Because I consider the home fishing is not so good a fishing: the earnings from it are not so great.

15,737. You said you knew quite well what the men are likely to earn in the ling fishing?-Yes. I can tell from my experience the outside which any ling fisherman can earn.

15,738. Do you know that before the season begins?-Yes. By taking five or six years together, I can see what a man has done in time past, and I don't expect that he will exceed it.

15,739. Do you think that any five years of a fisherman's life will give an average from which you can calculate his probable take for next year?-Yes; I think five years is quite sufficient.

15,740. The variation, I suppose, arises from the nature of the season?-Yes; in stormy weather they cannot go to sea so often as in good seasons, and in other times the fish do not come over the ground so well as they did before. Another thing is the herring fishing, which is connected with the ling fishing, the same boats being used for both purposes.

15,741. Are you engaged in it extensively?-No, not very extensively. I think we have about 10 or 11 boats altogether which fish in the herring fishery.

15,742. Is the engagement of the fishermen in the herring fishing similar to that which exists in the ling fishing?-It is exactly the same.

15,743. They are paid according to the current price at the end of the season, and that price is settled for at the same time as the price for the ling fishing?-Yes; they are both settled for together.

15,744. Do the returns which you have furnished with regard to the home fishing include in any of the answers the earnings from the herring fishing?-Yes; they apply to both ling and herring put together. In fact they apply to everything that the man has earned in the years to which the questions relate.

15,745. Do you think it would be practicable to introduce a cash system into Shetland in place of the annual settlements which now exist?-It would be better for the curer. I don't know if it would be better for the fishermen altogether. I think it would be better for perhaps one half or two thirds of them; but the other third, I am afraid, could not get on at all with the cash system.

15,746. Do you think they would have a difficulty in living over the first half of the year?-Yes; over winter or spring, until the fishing had commenced.

15,747. Do you think it would be impossible for them to get advances during that time in order to keep them going?-If they were to be paid in cash, the fish-curer of course would not give them anything until they brought the fish to him, and other people would be inclined to say the same thing. The man would merely have to be trusted like any other man going into any shop and purchasing goods on his own credit.

15,748. But, except for that difficulty, you would prefer a cash system?-I would.

15,749. Do you think there would be any difficulty in carrying out that system, supposing it were once begun, the men had tided over that transition period?-I think there would be none whatever.

15,750. Would it be possible to pay the men fortnightly or monthly, or at delivery?-I would pay them weekly.

15,751. Would you pay them the whole proceeds of the fish caught during the week?-I would pay them exactly for every tail they landed. I would fix a price with them at first, before they began to the fishing at all; but that price might be altered weekly, according the markets went up or down, the same as in any other trade.

15,752. Do you think the fishermen would agree to that?-We have asked them to agree to it, but they have not done so.

15,753. Was that because they did not like to have the price fixed and thus lose the chance of a rising market?-It was not so much the fixing of the price that they objected to. They would have agreed to that, but some of them who did not know where to find means said, 'What are we to do if we get no cash for a week or two in stormy weather, and we cannot go off; the merchant cannot supply us then.' Of course they could not expect us to supply them with anything after we had commenced with that system.

15,754. If the man was bound to fish for you, would you not be willing to give him supplies?-But they would not be bound to fish at all in that case.

15,755. But the men might be bound to fish for you all the season, although they were paid weekly?-I would not care to engage anybody then for the season. I would have a station at a certain place, [Page 397] with weights there, and I would pay for the fish as I got them.

15,756. Was that the nature of the offer which you made to the fishermen, and which they would not accept?-Yes. We would have no hold over the fishermen in that case at all.

15,757. Would it not be quite practicable to engage the men for the whole season and to pay them weekly?-It would be quite practicable.

15,758. Have you made an offer to them of that description?- Yes; we have made an offer to some fishermen who fish for us now.

15,759. Did you offer to engage them to fish for you for the whole season?-Yes. If they commenced, they would never think of changing.

15,760. In that case would there be any reluctance on the part of the fish-curer to make an advance to the men in a bad week if they were bound to fish for him over the whole season?-I should not care to do it because they might get no more fish after a certain date. At the end of the year the weather is very often such that the men cannot go off for weeks, and we might be advancing on the prospect of what never came, and then the men would be in debt.

15,761. In the case you refer to, were the fishermen not willing to accept your offer?-They were not willing.

15,762. Do you think it would have made any difference in that respect if the offer had been to pay a proportion of the price-say a minimum price of 5s. 6d. or so for ling-and that the balance should be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-I don't know how that would do. I never spoke about that with the men. I think that would be giving them two chances. It would be giving them the cash, and then giving them the full value of the market after I had paid out my cash so much sooner than I would otherwise have done. When a thing is sold, it is sold, and you take your chance either to lose or to gain, but in that case the fishermen would have the cash in their hands, and they would also have the chance of benefiting by a rise in the price.

15,763. But in other trades, merchants have to lay out their cash in wages and take their chance of a return?-Yes; and I would do the same.

15,764. You would do the same if the men were paid wages, but would you not be prepared to make part of the wages dependent upon the market price of the fish?-No. I hold that in a business transaction, if a party agrees to sell, and you agree to purchase, the one takes his chance, and you take your chance too. That would bring each party to an understanding of how matters stood between them. If it was the practice altogether to purchase the fish green, and to pay for them in money, there would be so many people in competition for them that the men would be sure to get the full value, because, if I gave 6d. more, another man would be sure to give 6d. more if he could afford it, and the men would not lose by that. The fish would go up to the very top price, and the men would reap the advantage.

15,765. Do you think there would be always two or three competing merchants at each station?-Certainly there would. The stations are only half a mile apart; and if one man would not offer the price, another would do so.

15,766. Are your curers paid by weekly wages?-We have one curer paid by weekly wages.

15,767. Do you cure by contract?-Yes, as well as by wage.

15,768. How many people are employed in your curing establishment during the season?-I cannot say, because some go on for a week or two, and others go on at the end of that time; but we will have as high as forty and as low as twenty people who are not off work.

15,769. How are these people paid?-They are paid weekly by a daily wage on Saturday night.

15,770. Do they receive payment of their whole wages in cash?- Every penny.

15,771. Are they paid in cash even if they have had out-takes during the week?-They have no out-takes; we don't give them.

15,772. Is yours the only establishment in Shetland, so far as you know, where that is the practice?-So far as I know, I believe it is; but I am not certain. The only other one where I thought it was done was Leask's; but I happened to be present last day when Mr. Robertson was examined, and I heard him say that they did give credit, which I did not know before.

15,773. Has it been long the practice in your establishment not to give credit to your weekly workers?-It has been the practice for about five years.

15,774. Have you found it to facilitate your transactions very much?-Yes; and it was for that reason we gave up the practice of giving credit. When we first commenced to cure at Bressay, we paid by weekly wages; but the people usually wanted some advances before the Saturday night, and we found in a short time that we were losing money by bad debts while a great deal of time was involved in settling with them on the Saturdays. In fact it took up so much time, and caused so much trouble, that we stopped it altogether.

15,775. How did the bad debts occur?-The girls wanted to take up clothing, and on Saturday night they required food for another week, and we found they took up too much.

15,776. Have you found that the people are now contented with the system which you have introduced?-They are quite contented.

15,777. They don't come to you wanting out-takes?-Never.

15,778. Do you find they get on quite comfortably under the present system?-Yes. What took us hours before to settle, we can settle now in the course of half an hour.

15,779. Don't you think the fishermen might manage to get on under the cash system if it were introduced in the same way that you have done with your workers in the curing establishment?- The fishermen are different thing. The fish have first to be caught before they are paid for; whereas, in the other case, the people are engaged for a weekly wage, which they are certain to get.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLOTTE JOHNSTON, examined.

15,780. You live at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-Yes.

15,781. How long have you lived there?-I was born at Colafirth, but I came to Lerwick when I was 25 years of age, and I was here for 17 years.

15,782. What did you do in Lerwick?-We kept a few boarders and lodgers.

15,783. What do you do now in Colafirth?-I have been employed scouring or dressing hosiery for the most part, and I generally had to go to one man with it for 10 years, except two months. I commenced on 1st. June 1861, and stopped on 8th April 1871.

15,784. Who did you dress hosiery for?-Chiefly for Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend.

15,785. Do you also knit?-Yes.

15,786. Were you always paid for that in goods?-Yes.

15,787. Did you get them at Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend?- Yes.

15,788. Do you also deal sometimes at the shop at Ollaberry?- Yes.

15,789. Have you an account there?-Yes. I have had a good many accounts. I think the first account I had with Mr. Laurenson was in 1863.

15,790. Were these accounts settled regularly?-No; that was the mistake. I wanted to settle regularly after a few months, when I got home perhaps from 10 to 20 dozen, but he ran on the accounts for perhaps 14 or 15 months, so that I did not know whether I was going ahead or going back.

15,791. This account [showing] was settled on [Page 398] December 31, 1864: 'By contra., £7, 10s. 9d.' What was that due you for?-I had scouring, and I had two tatted rugs, and I knitted cloth.

15,792. I see the account is settled again on March 31, 1866: were you still working at the same things?-Yes.

15,793. The work you did was put at the end of the book?-Yes.

15,794. The book you have shown me is a very carefully kept pass-book, is it not? Is there anything wrong in it?-I was not satisfied, and therefore I kept it.

15,795. Why were you not satisfied with it?-I thought he charged me too much for my groceries, and gave too little for my dozens of scouring.

15,796. Could you not have fixed your price for your scouring yourself?-No, I did not get the chance. He did it all himself, because he had both sides of the question.

15,797. But you had no need to work for a less wage than you thought was fair. Could you not have gone somewhere else with your work?-He always thought I should work to him. I could have gone to many a place else, and got work and been paid for it what I thought was a fair price, but he thought I should still have to stay and work for him.

15,798. Why did he think so?-I suppose he thought he got as well done to by me as he could have got done to him by another.

15,799. But he could not oblige you to do anything you did not choose to do?-When I would refuse to do what he wanted me to do at a time when I was up myself, he would send the things to me in a box to be done.

15,800. But you did not need to dress the goods unless you got what you thought was a fair price for them?-I had to do it, because I had to work for my own maintenance.

15,801. Are the pass-books you have produced the only pass books you have?-Yes.

15,802. The next one is for 1868 and 1869. Is with Mr. Laurenson too?-Yes.

15,803. It is only brought down to October 1869. Have you had no pass-book since then?-No; I wanted to stop work then because I was not well.

15,804. Have you got no supplies from Mr. Laurenson since 1869?-Yes; I have got an account of them. [Produces account.]

15,805. When was the account settled last?-I think it was in April or May 1871; perhaps it may have been in June.

15,806. On May 16, 1870, I see you are charged 8d. for oatmeal: how much was that for?-4 lbs.

15,807. Were you told at the time you got it what the price of it was to be?-No; I did not know at the time how much it was to be.

15,808. On June 27 you are charged 2s. for tea: how much was that?-Half a pound.

15,809. Do you buy 4s. tea at Lochend?-We have bought 5s. tea at Lochend, but that was in 1863.

15,810. Is it very fine tea that you get at 2s. per 1/2 lb.?-We ask for the best that is in the shop.

15,811. Are you quite content with the quality of it?-We must just take it as it is, because we have no means of going anywhere else. I have a sample of it here. [Produces sample of tea.]

15,812. Is that 4s. tea?-No, it is 4s. 4d. tea. That [producing line] is the line they gave us for the goods we got on the 22d of this month. [Witness produces line in the following form

s d By hosiery 2 0 Tea 1 1 0 11 Rice 0 31/2 0 71/2 Sugar 0 21/2 0 5

s d 0 5 Soda 0 1 0 4 Soap 0 11/2 0 21/2 Cloves 0 1 0 11/2 Sugar and tobacco 0 11/2

15,813. Where do you say you got these goods?-At Lochend, from Mr. Laurenson.

15,814. You took him 2s. worth of hosiery?-Yes.

15,815. How much tea did you get for 1s. 1d?-A 1/4 lb.

15,816. How much rice did you get for 31/2 d?-1 lb.

15,817. How much sugar did you get for 21/2 d?-1/4 lb.

15,818. Did you pay him 21/2d. for it?-Yes

15,819. Was that loaf sugar?-Yes; I have a sample of it.

15,820. How much soap did you get?-The soap was 6d. per lb. [The witness here produced a sample of the tea for which she had paid 1s. 1d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the loaf sugar for which she had paid 21/2d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the rice for which she had paid 31/2d. per lb.; a sample of the soap for which she had paid 6d. per lb.; and a sample of flour for which she paid 2d. per lb. These were all docketed by the clerk as having been produced by witness, and purchased from Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend.]

15,821. Did Mr. Laurenson know that you were to bring these goods here?-No.

15,822. Did you get them for your own use?-Yes.

15,823. Were you asked by your summons to bring them here?- Yes.

15,824. Are the articles which you get at the shop at Ollaberry of the same quality as you get at Lochend?-Mr. Irvine, who keeps the shop there, is very kind to me. If I want all cash at any time, he gives it; and Mr. George Henry and Mr. William Smith have also been very kind to me. They would give me cash at any time on my hosiery if I asked for it.

15,825. Are you quite sure that the samples you have produced were got at the same price that is charged for similar goods in your account by Mr. Laurenson?-The prices in the account are those which are charged when the goods are given for work, but the samples I have produced were given in exchange for hosiery.

15,826. Are there two prices for goods at that shop?-Yes, they always charged two prices. When we pay for goods in hosiery, they are always above the price which is charged when cash is paid for them.

15,827. Do you get the goods cheaper when you pay for them by your work, such as you are dressing, than when you are selling hosiery?-Yes. The price is then perhaps 1d. less for the 1/4 lb. of tea.

15,828. How do you know that?-Because I see it marked.

15,829. Was the tea for which you were charged 4s. 4d., when you paid for it by hosiery, the same tea that is charged 4s. in the account?-I think so.

15,830. Are you not sure of it?-I did not see them take it out of the chest. I asked them for the same tea, but I don't know if they gave the same kind.

15,831. But did you ask for the best tea in the shop in both cases?-Yes, I always do.

15,832. Then all you know is that you asked for the best tea in the shop, and it was charged 4s. 4d. when you gave hosiery for it, and it was charged 4s. when it was put into your account for dressing?-That is all I know; but it is a very short time since it was 4s. 4d. It was always 4s. 8d. before.

15,833. I see that on September 29, 1870, you are charged 1s. 6d. for oatmeal: was that a peck?-Yes.

15,834. Were you paying 1s. 6d. for the peck of oatmeal at that time?-Yes; and I suppose there were others paying it as well as me.

15,835. Would you have paid the same for it in any other shop in the neighbourhood?-No. It was dearer [Page 399] than if I had had the cash and gone into another shop to get it.

15,836. What did you say when you went to Mr. Laurenson with the hosiery which you sold to him on the 22d?-It was my sister who went, not me.

15,837. Did she tell you what she said?-I don't think it.

15,838. Are you quite sure your sister did not say what the goods were wanted for?-I told her what goods to ask for, and she got what I told her to get.

15,839. Did you tell her what you were to do with them?-No; I had not got the summons then.

15,840. Would you have got these goods from Mr. Laurenson even although you had not got the summons?-Yes.

15,841. Did you want them for your own use?-Yes. I got them on the Monday, and I did not get the summons until the Tuesday night.

15,842. You have not brought the whole of the goods which you bought then. You have merely brought samples from what you bought?-Yes. I was only told in the summons to bring samples.

15,843. Was the note which you have produced, given in the shop at the time when the goods were bought?-Yes. The shop lad marked down the things on that slip of paper and gave it to my sister, so that she might show me what she had got, and what the prices were.

15,844. You have handed me a letter from one Laurence Clark, dated 25th January 1872, in which he says, 'I have to inform you that I built Miss Charlotte Johnston a house in 1863, and I could not get 1s. from her, because she wrought all her work to Mr. Laurenson, at dressing hosiery, and could not get so much cash as 1s. Therefore I had to take anything that she had to give me, that could do me any good. That kind of payment is not so good as cash.'-For what purpose was this letter written?-It is merely a line from the man who built my house, to show that I could not get cash with which to pay him.

15,845. What did you pay Clark with for building your house?-I got meal, tea, tobacco, sugar, and anything that was in the shop at the times which he required; but I had to reduce the goods to him to cash price, because he would have required his money of me, and I did not have it to give him.

15,846. What was the price charged for building your house altogether?-He charged 15d. a day and his food; I think it came to about £2.

15,847. Did you give him a great deal more in goods, according to the price which was charged to you for them?-Yes. I gave him six yards of cloth for jacket, and other things.

15,848. I see there is a lot of tobacco entered in your book about 1863?-Yes; that was for the men who were working at the house.

15,849. When was the house finished?-It is about eight years in October since it was done.

15,850. I see there is some tobacco in December 1864. Was your house finished before then?-No. It was finished outside, but not inside. We went into it in October, but the windows were not in, and it was two years before I was able to get the flooring put in one of the ends of it.

15,851. Did you give him a little tobacco every now and then until it was finished?-Yes; but he got other things besides tobacco.

15,852. Does that account for the entries of tobacco in August and September 1865 in your book?-Clark was paid by that time, but I had to get my house thatched.

15,853. Was it not to pay him that you got that tobacco?-It was either to pay him or some one else who was working for me. I did not have any money; and when any one did any job for me, I had to pay them in some way or other.

15,854. What did you give them besides tobacco?-I sometimes had a few dishes that they required, and they took them or tea.

15,855. Does that account for there being so many entries of tea in your book?-Yes. I got wool and potatoes for tea.

15,856. At the settlement in July last there was a balance due by you to Mr. Laurenson?-Yes.

15,857. Have you not been working to him since?-I was not able to work.

15,858. About a month ago you got a notice from him that you would be summoned to court unless you paid the balance of your debt, 14s. 31/2d?-Yes; but I did not expect that I should have had anything to pay.

15,859. Did you think the balance was in your favour?-Yes, I expected that.

15,860. But you were running up an account, and you did not know?-Yes, but that was not my blame. I always wanted a settlement; and if he had paid me for my work and my goods, I would not have been due him anything.

15,861. When did you leave home?-I left home on Thursday, and came by the steamboat. I did not go on board of her at Ollaberry until Saturday night, but I had left home two days before, and had to wait for her.

15,862. How old are you?-I was fifty-two in July.

15,863. You are not in good health, and you are not able to walk a long distance?-No. I cannot walk far on account of the rheumatics.

15,864. Have you any idea when you will get home?-No.

15,865. Do you intend to go back by the steamboat if you can?-If the steamboat goes I will go with her but if not, I will have to stay until the packet comes back from Northmaven.

<Mr Guthrie>.-I have to give notice that I do not think at present that I shall summon any more witnesses to appear in Shetland; but there will be a meeting at half-past nine o'clock, and if any one wishes to make any statement, or to bring forward any additional evidence, he will then have an opportunity of doing so.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 1872.

JOHN GATHERER, examined,

15,866. You have been for a long time Collector of Customs at Lerwick?-I have. Before questioning me, I would like if you would allow me to make a brief preliminary remark or two which may render clear any after-evidence which you may call upon me to give. At the time when certain gentlemen tendered their evidence on Shetland truck before the Commission at Edinburgh, I read the brief, necessarily imperfect, and probably inaccurate reports of the same which appeared in the Edinburgh weekly papers. I also read some articles and letters which appeared in the newspapers at the time. About seven months ago I read, as printed I think in a Parliamentary blue book, the report of Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade about the discharge of the Shetland whaling seamen at this port. I have never read the report since. On my return from the, mainland last summer, I found a gentleman had left in my house a copy of the evidence, as [Page 400] printed <in extenso> in a pamphlet form. I think the pamphlet contained a report of Mr. Arthur Hay's adverse evidence; but I had not time to read it before I posted the pamphlet to a friend in the south. I therefore never read his evidence. Beyond a brief newspaper paragraph, which I read recently, I literally know nothing as to the evidence which has been given under the present inquiry. I purposely kept aloof from the same, and from inquiring about the same. I appear here very reluctantly on the present occasion, and, as you are aware, I would not have appeared at all had I not been cited. I have several reasons for this reluctance to appear: I will mention two of them. I entertain very strong opinions condemnatory of the truck system, which I believe prevails all over Shetland; but I do not wish personally to have anything to do with the matter, directly or indirectly. I think it is to be regretted that the question as to the mode of paying the whaling seamen should have been introduced at in the Edinburgh evidence, and complicated by being mixed up with the general question of truck. Both questions, I think, should have been treated separately, as they are the subject of distinct laws and regulations, these laws at the same time being administered by distinct departments. From what I have already stated, you will see that I have a very imperfect recollection of the statements in Mr. Hamilton's report, but I recollect my impression of it at the time when I read it. It was, that the statements in the report were essentially correct representations of what had taken place at one time or other at Lerwick. I have heard that some one has questioned the accuracy of some portions of his report. It might be liable to misconception in this respect. When he inspected my office, we talked generally over the objectionable system that had so long prevailed here in the mode of discharging and paying off the men. A great deal of this must have been patent and notorious to Mr. Hamilton, as a former resident in Shetland, and having subsequent intercourse with the same; and he may not possibly, in his narrative of this to the Board of Trade, have clearly separated some of the past and the suppressed practices of the agents, and those of more recent date. This would the more readily occur, as I have reason to believe that at the time he prepared his report he was not aware that I had over a number of years repeatedly and fully reported the whole matter to the Board of Trade. I have here with me a report relative to the discharge of whaling crews during the last year, and some returns relative to the same, and for previous years, which I hurriedly prepared with the view of sending to the Board of Trade by the mail, which I expected would have sailed yesterday. When preparing the same, I was not expecting I would have to give evidence on the subject. I do not wish to hand in the documents, but I may have occasion to refer to them.

15,867. You showed me these returns last night, and allowed me to see the report which you were sending to the Board of Trade?- I did.

15,868. You are satisfied, I presume, as to the substantial correctness of these returns?-Yes, of my own report and the returns. There is a difficulty in preparing them, from the time that has elapsed; but, as you are aware, I have asked them to verify the accuracy of them at the proper quarter.

15,869. Subject to that verification, you believe these returns to be correct?-Yes. They were prepared by myself and those in any office from the records.

15,870. Therefore, if any application should be made to the Board of Trade afterwards for production of these returns under this Commission, you have no objection to their being regarded as part of your evidence given upon oath?-None; and in continuation of the report, I will refer to the fact that I have been examined before you.

15,871. You are aware that before 1867 the wages of seamen returning from Greenland voyages and landed in Shetland were never paid at the Custom House?-In some cases they were, but very seldom.

15,872. Do you also know from your own observation, and from what you heard at the time, that those seamen were generally running large accounts with the agents, by whom they were secured for these sealing and whaling voyages?-I was aware of that from the statements of the seamen, themselves.

15,873. In numerous cases?-Yes, in numerous cases.

15,874. In almost every case?-I believe so.

15,875. In what way did these statements come to be made to you?-The seamen often came and complained to me that they were not paid off. It may perhaps be proper to explain that at that time, before the special Board of Trade regulations were issued, the masters should have come and paid off the seamen. I may add further, that I am aware that every means was taken by the agents to keep the masters of the Peterhead and Dundee vessels from coming and discharging their men in cases where it would have been attended with no inconvenience.

15,876. In what way did you become aware of that?-I got numbers of letters from the masters stating that they were unable to attend themselves with the men. These letters, so sent to me, were often written by the agents, but signed by the masters.

15,877. Did you know them to be in the handwriting of the agents?-Yes, or of their clerks; and on inquiring at the captains when they came back to engage men again, some of them told me that the agents desired them to do so.

15,878. Not to pay the men?-Yes, not to pay the men. In these letters they stated that they often wished the men to appear, but that they (the men) ran away home; which statement the men subsequently told was incorrect.

15,879. At that time, was the payment of these Greenland seamen at Lerwick subject to the same general regulations which were in force in other parts of the empire?-Yes. There were instructions to shipping masters at that time.

15,880. Were these the same regulations that are still in force in other parts of the kingdom?-Yes.

15,881. They are still in force everywhere, except in Lerwick?- Yes. They are still in force, except in the case of Shetland, Orkney, and the port of Stornoway. I may mention that the procuring of seamen, by agents was at that time, and is still in other places, illegal and punishable by fine-that is, according to the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. I believe the mode in which they then acted would in the south be treated as crimping; and allow me to say also, that the offence was rendered greater by the fact of the agents being merchants and supplying the men with goods.

15,882. I believe there is a prohibition of that?-Yes; and even licensed agents-that is, individuals licensed by the Board of Trade-are not allowed to be so if they have dealings with the men. That also is under the Act of 1854.

15,883. The regulation at the time you speak of, although it was not observed, was, that the men should be paid before the superintendent?-Yes, then called the shipping master.

15,884. That officer in this case was yourself, as there is no local marine board here?-Yes.

15,885. Why was the regulation not observed?-I am satisfied it was from the agents desiring to secure the profits on the supplies of the men.

15,886. Had you made frequent endeavours to enforce compliance with the Act?-Yes.

15,887. You reported repeatedly to the Board of Trade on the subject?-Yes. I may mention that, when I came here first, there was an attempt on the part of some of the agents to introduce their accounts into the men's accounts of wages, which I checked, and which I believe then led to the shipmasters not appearing.

15,888. That was many years ago?-It is a good many years ago. In some cases these accounts were introduced under the name of ship's accounts.

15,889. Was not that done as late as 1867, after the regulations had been modified? At least I was told that in some cases the agents had introduced their own accounts among the captain's stores in the ship's store-[Page 401]book?-I suspect that was done to a trifling extent, although I should not like to say decidedly that it was done.

15,890. Was there not a clause introduced in 1868 by which that was distinctly prohibited?-There were some defects in the regulations, and they were altered in order to meet the attempts made to evade them.

15,891. Since 1867 has the system been materially changed by the regulations then introduced by the Board of Trade?-Yes, materially.

15,892. The seamen now receive their full payment in cash in your presence?-They do.

15,893. Although not at the time required by the Act?-There is great delay in many cases.

15,894. That is said by several witnesses who have appeared here, to be due to the reluctance of the men to come forward, and their desire to go home and see their friends as soon as they are landed: is that so?-To a great extent, I do not believe that.

15,895. Have you any reasonable doubt that if the men were instructed by the master of the ship and the agents to go at once to the Custom House for payment of their wages, they would obey that direction?-I believe from my knowledge of the men, that if the master and the agent decidedly told them to go to the Custom House after being landed, they would go. There is no doubt that men after a long voyage are naturally anxious to get home; but if they knew they had to be paid then, they would readily accede to the request of the master and the agent.

15,896. Is there any reason you can assign, from your acquaintance with the practice in paying seamen's wages, why the accounts should not be all ready within the time allowed by the law?-My whole experience in the matter points to the fact that the agents are unwilling to have a speedy settlement, and that unless compelled they would never appear at the Custom House at all, or rather I should say at the Mercantile Marine Office.

15,897. Have you had occasion since 1868 to know that the seamen are still incurring large accounts, or considerable accounts, to the agents by whom they are secured?-I have endeavoured not to be cognisant of any of their dealings; but I may add further, that I believe, although the special regulations are outwardly and nominally complied with the agents still secure their accounts from the men for their supplies.

15,898. You think there is still a security-a sort of virtual impledgment of the men's wages although they are nominally paid over in cash?-Yes. It may not be by agreement, but the thing practically exists; and I never heard the agents conceal the fact that the profit on the seamen's wages is the main inducement to them in accepting the agency. That very fact, in my opinion, renders the whole transaction irregular and illegal. Of course, that is a matter of opinion.

15,899. Have you had occasion to interfere while seamen were settling wages with the clerk of the agent, in order to prevent part of the money being retained for the payment of the agent's account?-I may mention that the men, after being settled with at the Custom House generally run down to the agent's office. I know that, because I hear the men speaking about it, and the agents, or rather the agents' clerks, telling them to go down to the place.

15,900. Have you frequently heard the men told to go down?- Yes. The men sometimes blurt it out, and the agents' clerks are not very much satisfied at their doing so; but the whole thing is so well understood, that there is little concealment about it.

15,901. You have frequently heard conversations on the subject, showing that the men were expected to go down at once?-Yes; and some of the clerks had the audacity to attempt to deduct the amount at the office not later than last year.

15,902. Who were these? Are they mentioned in your report?- They are mentioned in my report to the Board of Trade.

15,903. Do you know whether one consequence of the new regulations has been, that the green hands engaged for the settling and whaling voyages are much fewer now than they were before 1867?-I am not aware of the fact. My attention has never been called to it.

15,904. Are you prepared to say that there are not fewer green hands engaged now than there were before 1867?-I cannot say as to that.

15,905. Your observation has not led you to think so?-No. The idea never occurred to me.

15,906. Have you had occasion to know whether the seamen have been told by the masters or the agents since 1868 to attend at the Shipping Office within the time required by law?-The special regulations, unfortunately, do not define any time within which they are to attend, and I have no doubt the agents know that fact.

15,907. The three days do not apply under these regulations?- That is a question that I should not like to give an opinion upon.

15,908. The clause about the three days is quoted in the last head of the regulations?-It is quoted there to show what the general law is.

15,909. But you have a doubt in your own mind as to whether it applies here?-I may at once say that these special regulations were a sort of compromise, and I am so far answerable for their being framed, thinking that they would secure the men their wages. My opinion now is, that it would have been better if the Act had been enforced as it originally stood; and I believe the thing will never be on a satisfactory footing as long as agents who are merchants continue to act as agents.

15,910. Is it not a benefit for the young men who are engaged for the Greenland fishery, to be able to get their outfit from the merchants on credit, as they do?-I think the same thing could be secured by other and legitimate means.

15,911. You know that the men get an advance note for the amount of the first month's wages?-Yes; and after these special regulations came into force, Laurenson & Co. were the first who paid the men over the counter in cash.

15,912. You are speaking now of the advances?-Yes, of the advance note. Messrs. Hay latterly did the same; and Mr. Tait, I think, did so this year for the first time. I recollect asking Mr. Laurenson if he sustained any loss by treating the men with confidence and giving them the money, and to the best of my recollection he said he did not.

15,913. But the outfit requires a larger sum than the advance amounts to in any case?-Yes; but allotment notes would meet that. That would give the relatives of the seamen an opportunity of drawing the money in their absence.

15,914. Are these the only means by which you think a young man without an outfit could provide himself with one?-I think any merchant would give the seamen credit, if they were certain that the present agents did not enjoy the monopoly of giving them their supplies. I may further state, that I believe a gentleman intends to a certain extent to act its agent for some of the vessels this year, to pay the men's advances in cash, and to allow their allotment notes to be paid by a banker or some disinterested party. If that system were introduced, it would knock the whole irregularity on the head. Such is my individual opinion.

15,915. Do you think the gentlemen who now act as agents would have any hesitation, or that any danger would arise to them, in supplying goods to the men, if they were not acting as agents, but merely as merchants?-I think they are not entitled to enjoy a monopoly of the trade.

15,916. But supposing they were not acting its agents at all, but merely as merchants, do you think they would hesitate, or that they would incur any risk by advancing outfits to the men its they now do, but without the security or the quasi security which they now possess?-In that case the men's custom would be distributed over all the town. They would give their custom to the merchants they were partial to, instead of being confined to the shop of the agent who engages them, as at present.

[Page 402]

15,917. But would those who got their custom incur any serious risk in giving them their supplies and outfits on credit?-They would be liable to the same risk that every merchant who embarks in trade is subject to. No man can deal with another on credit without being liable to a risk; but at present the merchants practically enjoy a monopoly of the seamen's supplies.

15,918. The seamen, however, could go to any other shop in town for their supplies if they chose?-At present they could, but I have no doubt they would offend the agent by doing so. If they repudiated his right to secure his own account, that would put an end to the thing, because the main inducement for the agents to act as they do is that they have the supplying of the men with goods.

15,919. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.

15,920. You formerly gave evidence before the Commissioners under the Act of 1870, in Edinburgh?-I did.

15,921. Are there any points on which you wish to give further information?-I merely wish to reaffirm all that I previously stated. From what the people say, the only thing that seems to require explanation, is with regard to the value of the worsted or wool for the making of a shawl.

15,922. You refer to question 44,290: 'I know for a fact that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s. They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.; and they get from 25s. to 30s. for it?'-Yes. The question was intended to apply to half square shawls and haps selling at from £1 to 30s., according to the verdancy of the animal that was buying it. It takes about sixteen hundreds to make a hap, and the worsted will be worth. from 2d. to 21/2d. It will take from sixteen to seventeen hundreds to make a half square fine shawl, and the worsted of it will be worth about 4d.; and these shawls are sold at from 18s. to 30s., according as customers can be got for them.

15,923. Are haps often sold at so high a price as 30s?-No, not haps; they are sold up to about £1. That has been my experience. I may say that I have been in shops, when the first question asked before a price was stated was, whether the article was for the person's self or for a stranger; that is to say, was it to be sold to a person in the country, or was it to go away outside, because in these cases they have two different prices. I have likewise been in shops when, if there were any of the knitting girls there selling shawls or other articles, the merchant would take very good care to state the price to his other customers in the lowest possible voice, and at the farthest possible distance from these girls; and I have been repeatedly told that they will occasionally put the price upon a piece of paper, so as not to let the knitters hear it. That I say in contradiction to the assertion which is made, that the merchants sell the hosiery articles at the same price as that at which they nominally buy them. Again, I want to point out that in most cases all the worsted that the hosiery merchants in Lerwick dealt in up to the last year was bought from the country merchants for goods, and therefore that even that nominal value did not represent the true value of the articles. I produce an account containing transactions amounting to £146; it is all balanced by goods, which were entirely worsted, up to £1, 3s. 10d. The only item of cash I find in the account is 15s. Lately, however, they have been obliged and are ready to buy the worsted for cash, because they cannot do without it, and the supply of worsted is decreasing.

15,924. You are speaking of Shetland worsted?-Yes. I may mention also that that estimate of the value of the worsted for a shawl was intended by me to embrace the Yorkshire worsted, or what they call the Pyrenees, although I don't suppose either the worsted or the wool ever saw the Pyrenees: it is made in Yorkshire.

15,925. Are you speaking, in both these cases of haps and of shawls, of articles made of Shetland worsted?-All the haps are made from Shetland worsted, the coarser worsted.

15,926. You said in that answer to which you have referred, 'They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.:' is not that a little too strong?-I don't think it.

15,927. That assumes that the charge for the goods is about 100 per cent. above the cost price, or rather it assumes that it is 100 per cent. above the price at which the worker of the shawl ought to get these goods, which would not be the cost price, but the retail price?-No, I don't mean that. I mean to say that if these merchants were to go to the proper market, they could buy their goods at such a rate that they would be able to sell them at 100 per cent. profit; but I know that a great many of these merchants go to second-hand houses to buy. Whether it is for the object of getting long credits, or what it is, I don't know; but I know from the parties who come here that a great many of them are not first-class houses.

15,928. Have you any personal knowledge as to the wholesale houses with which these merchants deal for their goods?-Do you mean, do I know who comes down here?

15,929. Yes?-Yes, I do.

15,930. From what source is your knowledge derived?-From their travellers, and from seeing their goods coming down.

15,931. You are acquainted with the travellers of those houses?- Most assuredly.

15,932. And you know that they are not wholesale houses in the strict sense of the term, but middle-men?-Exactly. I say that the merchants here could go to much better quarters for their goods if they were to put their business on a proper footing. Wholesale houses in Aberdeen are not in the same position as wholesale houses in London.

15,933. Do London houses send travellers here?-No; but if the merchants' business was on a proper foundation they could get introductions to these houses, and do their business at a better rate.

15,934. Is there any other point on which you wish to make an addition or explanation upon your former evidence?-It has been generally remarked by fishcurers, that one reason why they could not give up the present system of dealing with their men was because the men would not have the means of getting boats and fittings for the fishing, whilst at the same time the principal fish-curers assert that they do pay enormous sums of money to the men. For instance, I have seen from the papers that it has been stated by Messrs. Hay & Co. that in the island of Whalsay alone they paid £1300 last year, whilst the total value of the boats and fishing gear there cannot be over £400. Therefore it is absurd to say that the men would not be able to supply themselves with boats. Again, it has been stated and maintained that the Shetland men as a race are intelligent, and in one sense they are. Indeed their intelligence is so acute that the employers are ashamed, as I have no doubt you have found in the evidence, to give them accounts. They are rather afraid that their acuteness would discover too much in them, but in addition to that they tell you it would be impossible for the men to divide the produce of the fishing among themselves if it was paid in cash at the station, because it would require a man conversant with accounts; so that it is an absurdity to say that they are an intelligent race, and yet cannot adjust the proportions which would go to the different men in a boat's crew if they were paid in cash.

15,935. Probably they would be sufficiently acute to adjust their accounts if they were accustomed to do so like other people in other parts of the world?-I say they are quite capable of doing that. They are quite capable of looking after their own accounts if these were [Page 403] produced to them. There is another thing I should like to point out with regard to the agriculture of Shetland as compared with that of other places. I am sorry I have come away without the statistics, but if you look into them you will find that we have a much larger number of stock in Shetland with a rental of only £30,000, than Orkney with a rental of £60,000, from which I deduce that it is a far greater object to the merchants and proprietors here to continue the people as fishers upon the present system, than to put the land upon a legitimate and proper footing.

15,936. In what way do you arrive at that inference?-The land is under-rented for the purpose of binding the men to continue as fishermen for their employers. A great deal of the land is in outsets, and these outsets were originally set at the mere interest upon the house that was built, or upon any enclosures that were made. That was done for the purpose of procuring extra fishermen, and the system has been continued to this day. By looking at the valuation roll, you would find an immense difference between the rents of merks land and the rents of outsets.

15,937. I don't suppose that any proprietor who employs his men in fishing would deny that if he ceased to do so the rents of his tenants must be raised?-I rather think they do deny that.

15,938. I have had admissions made to that effect in the evidence which has been given before me?-I have heard none of the evidence that has been taken; but I am glad to hear that they are thinking of turning over a new leaf, and admitting even that they are wrong.

15,939. I don't say it has been a general admission, but that admission has been made by one proprietor at least?-I say that it ought to be a general admission. Another thing I would mention is, that the people with their present beliefs are unfortunately too subservient to come forward and frankly give full evidence upon the matter, and I would give an instance of the sub-serviency and illiterateness that prevails among them. I received the other day a report from two men, in which they use such language as 'resources of science and art,' and one of them was styled the superintendent, and the other the manager, of the working department of the largest establishment in this place for the manufacture of blubber. One of these men could hardly sign his own name, while the other had to sign with cross. That fact I mention in order to show that these men are under the belief that they are bound to do in most cases as their superiors may dictate to them.

15,940. Has it come within your knowledge that many people have been afraid to come forward and give evidence before this Commission?-Yes; a great many people have told me they would not do it.

15,941. Do you refer to fishermen?-To fishermen and to females too. I may mention also that I have been instrumental in starting a large company here upon the limited liability principle, the first object of which is stated to be to afford to the people of Shetland an opportunity of prosecuting their fishings free from the truck system.

15,942. Is that a company for prosecuting the Faroe fishing or the ling fishing?-It is to be for all. It is to commence this year with the Faroe fishing.

15,943. Did you send out any vessels in 1871?-No, we did not begin in 1871, except with a single vessel in which I was interested, and which we sent out to see what we could do with it.

15,944. Did that vessel belong to the company?-No, not to this company. The company has been formed in Glasgow, of gentlemen who are desirous of putting down this iniquitous system.

15,945. Do you propose to carry on the fishing with out any shop?-Yes.

15,946. And to pay all in cash?-Yes.

15,947. Do you propose to pay by annual settlements?-The men still prefer going upon the old system of payments; but in order to provide for their outfit, as they call it, we propose to pay it in cash the moment the vessel leaves the harbour with them on board, and we intend to afford to their families an advance of what is fair and reasonable to keep them while the men are away. We are quite prepared to run all that risk against a bad fishing, and we will pay them the balance in cash at any moment they choose after they come home.

15,948. Are the advances you are to make to be in cash also?- Yes; they are to be in cash, not in goods.

15,949. Do you think it will be possible for the fishing business to be conducted, perhaps not immediately, but shortly after this, without the fishermen requiring advances either in cash or goods?-Certainly; and I say that if that system could be adopted now it could be carried on, looking to the amount of money that has been accumulated on deposit by the people in the country generally.

15,950. Then why do you propose in your enterprise to make advances in cash?-Just to suit the humour of the people, until they come to see for themselves that such advances are not necessary.

15,951. I suppose you want to begin cautiously?-We do, and to work them into the system gradually. In fact we wish them eventually to take shares in these vessels, and to get vessels and boats for themselves.

15,952. But in the arrangement you propose, so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned, the men will be sharesmen?-They are sharesmen in the produce, but they have no shares in the vessel; but I propose that they should eventually have an interest in the vessel, and we are quite willing to give them an interest in any vessel they choose. We are also desirous to get better boats for them in the ling fishing. It has been stated likewise that the people could not get their supplies at the stations if there was a cash system, as there would not be shops there, because the whole amount that is sold at the stations in the course of a year is merely nominal; and to show that, it is mentioned that it is usually an ordinary splitter who attends to the shop, or the fish factor. That man is not in the shop any time during the rest of the year, and it is said that there is only a very limited amount of goods sent there, being intended only for the supply of the men when they go out to sea. If that is the case, it would be no great hardship if these goods were not there, but I say that they would be there.

15,953. Do you think the men could easily take their own supplies with them?-Quite easily; and wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered. If there is money to be got there, you will be sure to find shops there too.

15,954. In what way were the men paid who went to the Faroe fishing in your vessel last year?-They were paid by shares the same as they had hitherto been, and this [producing it] is a copy of their settlement. The name of the vessel is the 'Lily of the Valley.'

15,955. I see that this account of the settlement is drawn up in the form which is ordinarily used in Shetland?-I don't know, but I suppose it is.

15,956. It shows the amount of fish caught, and then the deductions, and finally the division?-Yes.

15,957. I see no deduction for commission?-There is no commision.

15,958. That is usually, but not universally, taken by the owner?- I don't know why it should be. I think it is hardly fair if the men are doing their duty that the owner should not do his also, and take the fish to the best market.

15,959. You think the owner should be considered to be paid for that by his share of the produce?-I think so. I also produce a copy of our account for the expense of salt and curing.

15,960. Does this show the actual expenditure incurred by you in curing the fish brought in by the vessel?-Yes.

15,961. Was it arranged with the men that they should be charged only the actual expense incurred for salt and curing, and not an estimate according to the usual system?-Yes.

15,962. Is it not usual in Shetland that the expense of curing is deducted according to an estimate of 47s. 6d. and 50s., or 52s. 6d., as the case may be?-No; I understand it is the cost that is charged. The agreement [Page 404] with our men was that they were to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, salt, etc., and master's premium 10s. per ton, and mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and that they should receive 8 lbs. weight of bread per man per week, and also 9d. per score to each man for all the fish caught by him, one half to be paid by the owners, and the other half by the crew.

15,963. What was the return to the owners upon their share of that vessel last year?-22 per cent.

15,964. The total share payable to each man is shown in the account you have produced?-Yes. Their half share amounted to £188, 9s. 6d., but then they had wages in the succeeding voyage as specified in the agreement.

15,965. Is there any other point on which you wish to make any additional remark?-I may say that when I was south lately, I saw letters from some of the whaling agents here, which plainly indicated that the commission of 21/2 per cent. paid to them for the engagement of seamen for the seal and whale fishing, would not, in their opinion, afford sufficient remuneration to them.

15,966. Have you got these letters?-No; but I saw them, and I was asked by the owners in the south if I could put them in the way of getting an agent who would consider himself sufficiently remunerated by that commission. I was first asked if I considered 21/2 per cent. paid them for their trouble. I said certainly; and I then engaged with Mr. Scott in Lerwick to act as agent for these vessels. Their previous agents did not consider that they would be remunerated sufficiently unless they got a full opportunity of trading with the men.

15,967. Is Mr. Scott to act as agent without having any opportunity of trading with the men?-Yes. The advance will be paid in cash at the time of the engagement, and the allotment notes will be paid at the bank.

15,968. Did you make that arrangement in consequence of what the shipowners in the south said to you?-Yes. That is an experiment which Mr. Scott is about to make; but there is no doubt about the result of it, because 21/2 per cent. is a very liberal commission for doing little or nothing.

15,969. Are you now in the management of the chromate of iron quarries in Unst?-Yes.

15,970. I understand the wages there are not paid in truck?-No; they have not been since I had anything to do with the quarries.

15,971. Are you aware that that was the case formerly-Yes; it was truck from beginning to end.

15,972. Did you find that to be the case when you undertook the management of the quarries?-Yes; after I had commenced the thing I was asked by the man who had previously trucked them if I would allow the workmen to be settled with in the office, so that they could get them into the shop immediately afterwards.

15,973. In what capacity had that person trucked them? Was he secretary or manager for the company?-They had a sort of anomalies there for managing the company. This one was supposed to be paymaster, and then they had a manager. The paymaster was a director, and he had a shop too.

15,974. Did you ascertain that the men had been paid at that shop by lines or tickets?-There was no payment at all. Their accounts were adjusted from time to time, the amount of goods which they had got was taken off, and the balance was handed to them. It was done openly and above-board; the man himself told me about it.

15,975. But accounts are always kept and settled in Shetland without any attempt of concealment?-I think so. I never had any difficulty in discovering it. I may add further, from my experience as chairman of three parochial boards, that since the system of truck and paying with lines was done away with in the parishes I am connected with, the rates have been reduced considerably.

15,976. How do you account for that?-Because the people have got money. It used to be considered an acknowledged fact, that for a pauper's shilling, if they brought a shilling to the shop, they would get 14d. worth of goods. The money was able to go much further, because there was wholesome competition between the different merchants to get a share of the money.

15,977. I understand Major Cameron's tenants throughout Shetland are at liberty to fish for any fish-curer they please?- Yes, for any one they please.

15,978. I think in your previous evidence you referred to the lease to Spence & Co. in Unst, and expressed a sort of regret that it had ended in a monopoly?-Yes.

15,979. There has been a good deal of evidence given before me to the effect that a monopoly of that kind is beneficial, and that it is wholesome, mainly in preventing small shops from springing up in large numbers, and that it requires a large capitalist to develop the resources of the country properly: is that so?-That is perfectly true: but a merchant or any one who says that should recollect that except for the capital of the poor fishermen they could not carry on the business themselves.

15,980. Are you aware whether the fish-merchants generally are men of large capital?-I should say that they cannot be, from this fact, that they would readily pay the men in cash which they get, and which in the month of August must amount to about £40,000 due to the men, if they had it.

15,981. Is that merely an inference which you draw from the practice which prevails?-Yes.

15,982. But have you any personal knowledge on the subject?- Yes. Perhaps it would not be fair to mention the names of the firms, but I know several firms who have commenced within the last few years with no capital, and who are carrying on a business which in the south would require an enormous capital. I know it is alleged by merchants generally that they do not consider they are trading upon the poor man's capital.

15,983. I suppose you speak of the merchants trading upon the poor man's capital, in this sense, that they do not pay for the fish which is in their hands until about the time when they get their returns?-Exactly; that they neither are merchants nor agents. They are not merchants, because they do not pay the men for the raw material, and they are not agents, because they do not give them honestly their account sales.

15,984. Are you aware of the practice existing in Shetland, that the proprietors in many cases receive their rents from the fish-curers?-Yes. During the first year or two that I settled for Major Cameron, I got many cheques from the fish-curers.

15,985. Was that for the whole amount of rent due by a number of fishermen?-Yes, either that, or each man would bring his separate cheque; but in a great many cases in Shetland the fish-curer just pays it slump, or what is called guarantees it.

15,986. That is not an actual guarantee; it is merely an arrangement by which the fisherman, for the convenience of all parties, is debited in the fish-curer's book with the amount of rent which the fish-curer pays to the landlord?- True; but in it great many cases, as I have previously stated, I think there is a chronic balance against the men, which balance, I think, if looked into, would generally be found to be composed to a great extent of advances of rent for the next year, which practically thirls the men on to them, but which has no right to go through their books at all.

15,987. Are you aware whether the fish-curer is induced to make that advance of rent by the consideration that he holds his own premises from the landlord, and might be charged a higher rent, or lose some other advantage, if he did not do so?-Most assuredly. There is no doubt that, if they were thrown open, the rents of the business premises would double themselves throughout the country.

15,988. Have you known any instance in which the landlord favoured the merchant so far as to refuse to allow other businesses to be begun upon his estates?-Yes.

15,989. Had that happened in the case of Major Cameron's estates?-Not so far as I know, and no one [Page 405] has ever asked it. In fact we have business premises lying unlet just now.

15,990. Do you know that that has happened elsewhere?-I do; in more cases than one.

15,991. Is it not virtually the case in Unst, that no premises are allowed there except those of Spence Co.?-I don't know about that, because Spence & Co.'s principal premises are upon Henderson's property.

15,992. Were you not aware of Spence & Co. removing a merchant who had premises on the property of Major Cameron, which was under tack to them?-No; I think that was on a neighbouring property.

15,993. Was that the case of a house that was shifted bodily across the road?-It was not shifted bodily. The man put up a new place altogether.

15,994. Was that on Major Cameron's property?-No; neither in the one case nor in the other. I think he came off the Greenfield property, and he built a place upon the Earl of Zetland's lands.

15,995. Was there no one removed from Major Cameron's property in the neighbourhood of Uyea Sound, by Spence & Co.?-I don't think there was. There was a man there with a lease of land who kicked up a row with us about a pier and other things of kind, whose nephew, under his name was keeping a shop, and we distinctly told him that he must turn his attention to something else; that if he would use the house for a lodging-house or something of that kind he could stay, but that we would not allow him to do it under these circumstances.

15,996. Did he put up a shop elsewhere?-Yes. They built a new place to the west of Baltasound.

15,997. What were their names?-Isbister. If I am not misinformed, I think these parties are still carrying on the shop at Uyea Sound, conducted by a man Donald Johnston; at least I saw a boatload of goods coming ashore there, and on inquiry I was told they were for Isbister's shop.

15,998. Do you think such an arrangement as you have made with Spence & Co. is in any sense different as respects the interest of the men from that by which a proprietor cures himself, and employs his own tenants in the fishing?-In the way it is carried out, I don't think there is very much difference; but had it been carried out in the way that was intended and promised, it would have been very different. You must bear in mind that I don't think it is for the interests of the working people in Shetland to have scattald, and therefore it was intended that each man should have a farm for himself, and a lease of it, and they have a right to that under the lease to Spence & Co. Had they stuck to that, or were they to stick to that, they would be quite independent; but as they persist in believing that the scattalds are for their benefit, and as Spence & Co. have a right to these scattalds, it practically binds them to the merchants.

15,999. I understand that Spence & Co, from their lease, have absolute power to remove tenants if they don't comply with the rules and regulations which, are appended to the lease?-I don't think so, not without our sanction. I know that we don't think so.

16,000. That, if it is so, would give them an absolute power to compel the men to fish for them, just as much as when a landlord intimates to his tenants that they must fish for his tacksman on pain of removal. Assuming that they have that power, is not that the effect of it?-Assuming that they have that power, that would be the effect of it, but I don't think they have that power. It was never intended that they should have it, and I don't think they have it. I hold that we alone have power to turn off the tenants, and under the lease we only have power to bring in tenants.

16,001. The effect of the lease and the regulations appended to it, so far as I have been able to examine it, appears to be, that if a sub-tenant fails to comply with the rules and regulations appended to the lease, he may be removed by the lessee?-No, we quite deny that.

16,002. How do you reserve power under the lease to deal with the sub-tenant who does not comply with the rules?-We exclude assignees and sub-tenants, except as after-mentioned.

16,003. Perhaps the shortest way of dealing with that matter will be, that I should have an opportunity of reading the lease or it copy of it at leisure?-Certainly, but I may say decidedly that it was not intended that Spence & Co. should have such a power, and it is not being acted on, because we are now in process of warning four or five tenants who will not come under the rules. It was intended distinctly that we reserved all our present tenants, irrespective of Spence & Co. altogether.

16,004. But are not the powers with which Spence & Co. are invested with regard to peats and other matters, really such as to compel the tenants to remove if they do not comply with the rules?-No. The peats are reserved in our hands, for the purpose of compelling them to take care of the peat-banks.

16,005. That is not Mr. Sandison's reading of the lease?-I cannot help Mr. Sandison's reading of it but I am certain that it is the correct reading, from the fact that there was a very considerable correspondence carried on about Spence & Co. being allowed to put in certain tenants during the first two or three years of their lease. They have only right to put in new tenants within a certain time and after that they have no right to put anybody into a vacant farm.

16,006. You were speaking of poor-rates: do you think there has been no reduction of poor-rates in Shetland from any other cause than the reduction of truck?-Not in my opinion.

16,007. Have there not been better crops and better seasons lately?-Yes, but that does not reduce the number of paupers. The number of paupers has been increased rather than reduced.

16,008. But if there are good seasons with regard to crops and fishings, may not a greater number of paupers be maintained by their own friends, and fewer people fall upon the rates?-That might be so; but if the same number of paupers are on the roll, and if the allowances are practically the same, it must follow that the rates should be stationary.

16,009. Your statement is that the number of paupers has not been reduced?-It has not been reduced. It has been rather increased. I may mention that in Unst there has been a decrease from deaths, but not anything to account for a reduction of the rates from 8s. to 2s. 6d.

16,010. With regard to the price of shawls, when you spoke of a shawl being worth 25s. or 30s., did that apply to the merchants who purchase shawls for goods, or to private dealers?-I referred to what the shawls would be sold for to private individuals in the town.

16,011. The prices which you name for shawls are not the prices that were paid by merchants?-No; but with regard to that I may mention that I have heard merchants from the south say that when they sold goods to merchants here, in a great many cases they got goods back. There is a man named Saint in Aberdeen who deals considerably with the merchants here, and perhaps he would be able to give evidence as to whether he does not prefer to pay in cash, but that to give goods is insisted upon by the merchants here.

16,012. Did you mean to say in an earlier part of your evidence that the merchants here get supplies of goods mostly from second-hand houses?-I mean to say that they could get them from better houses if they chose.

16,013. Would you say that J. & R. Morley & Co.; Copestake, Moore, & Co.; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Fletcher & Sons, Manchester; J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Mann, Byars, & Co. Glasgow; George Peek, Manchester, Vesey & Sons, London; Allan & French, London, were second-class houses?-No; but I should like to know the extent of business which the merchants here do with them, and whether they deal wholesale with them or not.

16,014. Would you be surprised to hear that Shetland merchants engaged in the hosiery trade obtain the bulk of their goods from such houses as these?-I should say that perhaps that was the truth, but I should like to know the whole truth about the matter, because [Page 406] these houses, large as they may be, have certain clearances occasionally, which it may suit a people such as those of Shetland to take. I know at least one instance of a large quantity of that class of goods coming down in the steamer, and being damaged by a cask of porter being burst upon them, and a claim was made upon the Leith and Clyde Shipping Co. for something like 50 per cent. of profit, because it was a job lot which had been bought from big houses of that kind.

16,015. But I suppose there are job lots bought by almost every house at times?-Yes, but that has been the system here; in fact it has been stated by people in these big businesses, that they did get rid of their over-season's goods in that way.

16,016. I suppose over-season's goods come to all parts of the rural districts of Scotland?-I am not aware of that, but they may do so.

16,017. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing that I am aware of.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLES OLLASON, examined.

16,018. You are a member of the firm of Charles Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,019. Did you receive that letter [showing] from Mr. Williamson?-Yes. [The following letter was put in:-] 'Haggersta, Jan. 20th 71.' 'Messrs. Charles Ollason & Son. 'Dear Sirs,-I am sorry to say that by some misunderstanding I did not get the wages that I expected to get; for instead of a 3/4th I only got a 1/2 share, and therefore instead of £18 I only got £12. I was due Mr. Stove £4 from the year that I was at the fishing from him, and he handed in that bill against me to Mr. Irvine, who retained that for him, so in that way I had nothing to get at all. Therefore I am sorry to say that I cannot pay the 15s. that I am due you for the boots that I got in August, and I beg that you will wait till the turn of the season, and then I hope that I will be able to pay you, for I am signed to go in the 'Olive' as a sharesman. If you cannot wait till then, you will be so good as to let me know. You will make out a bill, and I will sign it and hand it in to Mr. Irvine, and let it be marked against me, and then you will be sure of your money then-for it is entirely out of my power to pay you any other way just now. I beg that you will comply with my request, as I can't do better.-Your humble Debtor,

'M. Williamson, 'Haggersta, 'Whiteness.'

16,020. Was that letter written to you by him in answer to a demand for payment of your account?-Yes.

16,021. Were you surprised to get a letter of that kind explaining the reasons why your account was not paid?-We were not very much surprised, for we believed the facts to be just as he stated them.

16,022. Did you think it a reasonable enough explanation he was not able to pay you?-Yes; it was reasonable enough for him.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.

16,023. I now show you Messrs. Hay & Co.'s store ledger, kept by William Halcrow, their storekeeper here: was Halcrow the party referred to in the report which you mentioned in your evidence?- If Messrs. Hay & Co. say he is their superintendent, he is the same individual.

16,024. Is Messrs. Hay & Co.'s the largest establishment of that kind in Lerwick?-I understand so.

16,025. And the party mentioned in the report describes himself as superintendent of the largest establishment in this place?-Yes, general superintendent, and the other is described as the manager of the working department. The general superintendent is the one who signs his name, and the other is the one who signs with a cross, and they are the parties who speak about the resources of science and art.

16,026. Is the book I now show you kept in a fair enough mercantile hand?-Fair enough.

16,027. Would, you be surprised to hear that it was kept by William Halcrow?-I would not. The reason why I mentioned this matter at all was to show the subserviency of the people in Shetland,-that they are accustomed to do what they are bidden,- that they are ready to sign their names to what they really cannot understand, if they think it is doing a favour to any one above them.

16,028. Do you think Halcrow was incapable of understanding such a phrase as the resources of science and art?-I think so, as it is applied here; because I may mention that in the correspondence which passed before, and which refers to the same parties, they said they did not know that whales had skins.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ARTHUR LAURENSON, recalled.

16,029. I understand you have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Walker with regard to the merchants in Lerwick, and that you wish to make some explanation in regard to it?-I have not heard it, but the substance of it has been reported to me since I entered the room. I have been told that he said that the merchants in Lerwick buy from second-class houses, and pay for their goods by consignments of hosiery. I wish to refute that, so far as I am concerned; and I refer to Messrs. J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; John Clapperton & Co., Glasgow, and Geo. Peek & Co., Manchester, as a proof that I deal with first-class houses.

16,030. Are these the only houses with which you deal?-No; I deal with a good many more.

16,031. Are there any houses from which you get portions of your goods which might be characterized as second-class houses?-No.

16,032. Is it the case that you ever get job lots or over-seasons goods?-Never, unless in the ordinary way of trade. Perhaps an article may be shown to me by a traveller occasionally, but only one pattern out of fifty which may be described as a job lot.

16,033. You do not get in a larger proportion of these goods than other dealers in other country towns?-No; I never bought a job lot altogether in my life. We never pay by consignments of hosiery.

16,034. Is there anything further you wish to state?-At the close of my last examination I wished to make objection to the credibility of a witness. I was asked to state it privately, and I now hand in paper with regard to it. [Produces paper.]

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

16,035. Do you wish to concur with Mr. Laurenson in the statement which he has now made?-Yes. The only difference is that I deal with more houses in London.

16,036. The list of houses which I read from in putting a question to Mr. Walker was furnished by you?-Yes; but it does not include one half of the houses that I deal with. I wish also to say that I have now been 25 years in business, and I never to this day exchanged 2d. worth of hosiery goods for goods in the [Page 407] south. I do not mean to say that I have not bought hosiery goods for goods here, but I have never exchanged them in the south for other goods.*

16,037. Does any one present wish to give any further evidence?- [No answer.] Then I adjourn this inquiry. I have to think the Commissioners of Supply for the use of this room, which they have kindly furnished to me; and I have also to return my thanks to all parties in Shetland with whom I have met, for the courtesy which I have received from them, and for the readiness which they have shown in furnishing me with all information which I required.

*Mr. Linklater also, on the same day, sent the following letter to the Commissioner, referring to the same subject:-

LERWICK, 31st January 1872. W. GUTHRIE, Esq.

Sir,-I am sorry that I was absent when Mr. Walker in his evidence before you today stated, as I have been told, that the merchants here bartered their goods in exchange for drapery goods from second-class warehouses in the south. I beg to state that I have been thirty-seven years in business here, and have paid cash for all the goods ever I bought, and beg to refer you to the following houses from whom I get my goods.-I am, sir, yours very respectfully,

ROBERT LINKLATER.

J. & W. Campbell & Co., Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Anderson & Co., Glasgow; J. Clapperton & Co., Glasgow; Chamberlain & Birrell, Glasgow; John Howell & Co., St. Paul s, London; Fandel, Phillips, & Co., Newgate Street, London; Hutton & Co., Newgate Street, London; D. Hyam, Houndsditch, London; Copestake, Moore, & Co., London; George Peek & Co, Manchester; Hall, Russell, & Co., Bradford.

LERWICK: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1872

<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.

<Mr. Guthrie>.-As I have been detained here longer than I expected, owing to the state of the weather, I have held this sitting to-day in order to examine some witnesses who were formerly suggested to me by gentlemen in Lerwick, and whom I was not able to call before closing the previous sittings, and also some others who I think may be useful in supplementing the evidence already taken.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE, examined.

16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now.

16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods.

16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No.

16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I always knit haps or coarse shawls.

16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to manufacture it with our own hands.

16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes.

16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s.

16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No.

16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just been doing things for my own family.

16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for my husband, and stockings and things of that sort.

16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy.

16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep when they are killed.

16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we go to their houses and ask them for it.

16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton to any person in the town who will buy it.

16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few, but I cannot say how many.

16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in any other way.

16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought 10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it.

16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has been higher of late since the wool became so dear.

16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes.

16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d.

16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for 1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it.

16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts.

16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality.

16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain work.

16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit myself, or taken any in to knit.

16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it, the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred.

16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr. Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too.

16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him something at times.

[Page 408]

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH, examined.

16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man now, but he was at the sea at one time.

16,069. Has he got a pension?-No.

16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my own family.

16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes.

16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a few haps last year.

16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not; but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask, and got money articles for them.

16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to him.

16,075. What did you get for it?-12s.

16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it myself, and wrought it until it was done.

16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?- No; I did not count them.

16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two yards.

16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just the ordinary wool that is used for haps.

16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it.

16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to buy it I would have had to pay for it.

16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept it for my own use.

16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No. I always required anything I got for my own family.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined.

16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are generally workmen, such as masons.

16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit.

16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him; he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't know the quality of it, nor the price.

16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I have a few that I am knitting.

16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work for him.

16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?- From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.

16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one of coarse?-Yes.

16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just now and let me see it?-Yes,

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.

16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew; but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the house-work.

16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost entirely.

16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.

16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in goods.

16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked for it.

16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to private people, and they always pay me in money.

16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I like. I don't go to any one in particular.

16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.

16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when we can get them.

16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it, and therefore I never thought of doing so.

16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.

16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea, sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the shop.

16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?- Yes.

16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.

16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is required for the house.

16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.

16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.

16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it has always done so in time past.

16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your mother?-No.

16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the very finest worsted either.

16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?- Yes.

16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?- Yes.

16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.

16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes, sometimes.

16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and price?-Yes.

16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4 yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four borders in the square.

16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25 scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you got 12s. in goods?-Yes.

16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the merchants?-No.

16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid for knitting than when they are fine.

16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality. The worsted was not the very coarsest.

16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per cut?-I cannot say.

16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.

16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?- I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.

16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me here?-Yes.

[Page 409]

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.

16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for veils of the same quality.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great number of job articles which tear in the dressing.

16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to 2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.

16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d. worth of worsted.

16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got upon the whole.

16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?- About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz., and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.

16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30 dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them for about the lot.

16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could. I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or something like that.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.

16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr. Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s. 6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s. 41/2d. for it.

16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which you got 9d.?-Yes.

16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for it?-No.

16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls you knit?-Yes.

16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.

16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick.

16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five years.

16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special regulations came into effect-1867.

16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that the men who received their wages at the Custom House were frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.

16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.

16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were here?-Yes.

16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions specified in the agreement.

16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice was stopped.

16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have been in 1869 or 1870.

16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.

16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom House?-Not so far as I am aware.

16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it done.

16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.

16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could see them keeping the deduction off.

16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.

16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done, but it has not been done at all times.

16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye watching everybody.

16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a press of business?-Occasionally.

16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.

16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that either.

16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an understood thing that they should do so.

16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.

16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have overheard the agent and the men talking about it between themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he came to settle the other account at the shop.

16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.

16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of seamen?-Occasionally.

16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are always engaged there.

16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing vessels?-Yes.

16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?- Yes.

16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.

16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not aware. They are all selected before they come before us.

16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not observed that.

16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.

16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the subject?-I think so.

16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no doubt there was little objection at the time.

16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it was troublesome.

16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to recollection.

16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.

16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.

16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.

16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the first year.

16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at once.

16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and handing over the net balance only.

16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took place before you?-No.

16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?- Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I could not be positive.

16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can attend to them, they are.

16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.

16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.

16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying, so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to stop all these informalities.

16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.

16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in settling, most undoubtedly.

16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.

16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.

16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better for all parties.

16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the course of ten hours for any whaling crew.

16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.

16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that.

16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of delay?-I never did.

16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands, there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.

16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first instance without directing them to come and receive their wages?-I think so.

16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my knowledge.

16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly at Lerwick harbour.

16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD, examined.

16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.

16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.

16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool of different kinds-grey and black and white.

16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth about that.

16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly got for these little haps.

16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.

16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.

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16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.

16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I got whatever I asked.

16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference whether I paid for it in money or in goods.

16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.

16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.

16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.

16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just now?-Yes.

16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.

16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland and Davis Straits, for the most part.

16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling fishing?-No.

16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time; but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was able to go.

16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson & Co.

16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have been in Greenland almost every year since then.

16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom you were engaged?-Always.

16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.

16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.

16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent here, and sometimes not.

16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to send here for money when she could not get money from her neighbours.

16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so far as ever I knew.

16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of the time, but not at first.

16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you were absent?-I have done so lately.

16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left, that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.

16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.

16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?- No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things from him then.

16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.

16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she required anything.

16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs. Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.

16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.

16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there, and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had been paid myself.

16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes.

16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.

16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get credit from a neighbour.

16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even although there was an account due to him.

16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an account due?-Yes.

16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you were away?-Yes.

16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she asked it in that way?-I cannot say.

16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.

16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.

16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.

16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.

16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.

16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted to him.

16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at first.

16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she has to sign it before she gets the money.

16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies; these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.

16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you remember?-Yes.

16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.

16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a month's pay every month when I was away.

16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.

16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.

16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that time?-No.

16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.

16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.

16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with the agent?-Not very much.

16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I don't remember; I don't think it was very much.

16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit, perhaps?-Perhaps there was.

16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money, that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as I am paid myself.

16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at once?-Yes.

16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.

16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.

16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.

16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere else?-Yes.

16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most suitable articles.

16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had an account with the agent.

16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No, I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.

16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he does.

16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not many ships that come here.

16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the case.

16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best chance of being engaged?-I don't know.

16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent, or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than another?-I cannot say that he has.

16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression or not I cannot say.

16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.

16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.

16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think there is some cause like that to account for it.

16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.

16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop, you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next year?-I believe I would.

16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.

16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I suppose I would have a chance.

16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I never saw that done.

16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account when I could.

16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.

16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard about anything of that kind.

16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about that matter?-No.

16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think anything would happen at all.

16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.

16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.

16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months afterwards?-Yes.

16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for that year.

16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's books.

16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.

16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.

16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the book?-No; I did not know that until then.

16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.

16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of course I would have paid it if I had been able.

16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once, to my recollection, in that way.

16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr. Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books against me next year.

16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.

16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it will be more than twelve years ago.

16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at settlement?-No.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.

16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper of a Faroe smack.

16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr. Leask's.

16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?- I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.

16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.

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16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.

16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.

16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.

16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient. For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us through part of the season.

16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?- Only very little.

16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?- Generally about the 1st of December.

16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in cash?-Yes.

16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.

16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel.

16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6 at a time, just as I need it.

16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?- No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.

16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.

16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.

16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?- Yes.

16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I leave my money along with Mr. Leask.

16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his hands as I would get from the bank.

16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole balance that is due to you?-No.

16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed to you for it in your next account?-Yes.

16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.

16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.

16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked for money and did not get it.

16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what he has to get.

16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.

16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They always do so.

16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity in time past.

16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?- No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew any men who did not take some supplies from him.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.

16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.

16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to the seal and whale fishing.

16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.

16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.

16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.

16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.

16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?- Yes.

16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.

16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but I think it my duty to do so.

16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.

16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange shop for them, because they would not give them to us.

16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?- Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not know us.

16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I don't take it out in that way.

16,355 But you could it?-Yes.

16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at another shop?-Yes.

16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.

16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it, but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.

16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them out of the agent's shop.

16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.

16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask for some time.

16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.

16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.

16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment note, but not otherwise?-Yes.

16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you had it?-I do.

16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.

16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.

[Page 414]

16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants it?-Yes.

16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.

16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.

16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.

16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I suppose so.

16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling, that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.

16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?- Yes.

16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.

16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season; but I have changed agents occasionally.

16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co. to Mr. Leask then.

16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I wanted to go in. That was my only reason.

16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you changed?-Yes.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.

16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I am.

16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.

16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I have mostly been in the south.

16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.

16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert Mullay.

16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?- Not for supplies, only for fishing material.

16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not ask for any; I did not want them at the time.

16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.

16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for it?-I did not ask for it.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.

16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.

16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted with any person except the agent who will give me credit and therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my absence except through him.

16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my half-pay is usually 25s.

16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.

16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too small?-Yes.

16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from the agent who engaged you?-I have.

16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.

16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They said they did not know me.

16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the agent's for what I wanted.

16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling voyage?-Commonly they do.

16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are running an account with the agent?-No.

16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear with the agent at that time.

16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents before I went on another voyage.

16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in Lerwick.

16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if he had one?-Yes.

16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from an agent he should go and get his things from him.

16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you that reason for his refusal?-Yes.

16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.

16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.

16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the agent, and had signed clear in his books.

16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.

16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it in the month of March.

16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your supplies?-Yes.

16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not, they usually make a change with the first month's advance they get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and best.

16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.

16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places for what we want.

16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?- Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose, or as much as we have a mind to take.

16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go up to the Custom House.

16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at the Custom House?-No.

16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was due.

[Page 415]

16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.

16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?- Yes.

16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay the balance due.

16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your account?-No.

16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything of the kind had been said to me.

16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 6,1872.

JOHN HARRISON, examined.

16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.

16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.

16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.

16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.

16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.

16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My father is a proprietor to a very small extent.

16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with land?-In no way whatever.

16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business, with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have gone into our service.

16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent times.

16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four years back.

16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe fishermen?-Yes.

16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be laid down for their observance.

16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do so?-I know of no such obligation.

16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.

16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and who had money in their own possession.

16,441. How many of these cases have come within your knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not particularize them. There have been several cases which have come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men; but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the result would be that they would be warned out.

16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen. One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him which hindered him from going.

16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly interested in it ourselves.

16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years ago; I cannot say precisely.

16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country; and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.

16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.

16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.

16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?- By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to £18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken, and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than employ them.

16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that ever was made.

16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes, I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have; but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free. If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you, and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the fishermen.

16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence, although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold over a very unwilling slave.

16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible.

16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the results?-Decidedly.

16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said, 'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said, 'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried, and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of £50, the best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in bank.

16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or five years since they left the island.

16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not more than three years ago, some of them.

16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to us.

16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and turning them out of the island.

16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours, and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies which they might receive, from our house during the time of the fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord.

16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the remedy one can hardly point out

16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day, and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever, that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as a present for being allowed to sit without leases.

16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is marked down, so far as I know.

16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.-

16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger price for their fish.

16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys an article in every other trade in the world.

16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat.

16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the season.

16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the result would be that that party would have the power over these men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.

16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?- Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked.

16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the property belongs.

16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s. per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy.

16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord or tacksman.

16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the crofters against you?-No, not made against us.

16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money, 14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I entered into the trade.

16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes.

16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first, because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves and their families.

16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe, however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply getting payment for what they delivered would make them more independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the tenants in the islands who fish.

16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft indeed which would not support them for at least six months a year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of food, except from the charity of others.

16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland. Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their manufactories going.

16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of supplies?-I consider it would be much better.

16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood.

16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or three years.

16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming forward who would have been able to have given the best possible evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me.

16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my experience of the people and of the system, which experience has extended over more than 20 years.

16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered according to the contract price, would have such a power over the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at the settlement.

16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present enjoys.

16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know that under the present system they are liable to get forty days' warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas.

16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a system of money payments were adopted they might not consider themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for the goods which they got at his shop.

16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the fishermen as it now exists.

16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements, providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever port they may agree to deliver them at.

16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not, as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the crew, say from at the lowest to £7 or £8 in other cases. If he did not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having a contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all. The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference.

16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that they take?-That it is the agreement

16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a contract before the fishing commenced.

16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen, generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried.

[Page 419]

16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen so very heavily.

16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?- There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has, in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining £100.

16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that.

16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands.

16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in Shetland.

16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live, and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after the fish have been landed.

16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and salt?-Yes.

16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably before starting on their second voyage?-Yes.

16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick.

16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen; and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever. Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present, if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more capital than they do have if a system of short payments were adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they would be placed in quite a different position.

16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession, obtain a renewal of their bills.

16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.

16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?- In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever, because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.

16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.

16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some other necessary article for the house.

16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?- In some cases he may not be able to do so.

16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances from their employer although they may have money of their own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a certain extent.

16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the case.

16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the fishermen?-I believe it does.

16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?- I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to have paid off the debt.

16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way, that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for them until the end of the season.

16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner whale fishing at Iceland.

16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?- The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you, refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average payment to each was £23, 15s., and in many cases those who had the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction except where they wished, were the men who took up the least advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings of the 81 men and boys in that year were £3022, 18s.; the total amount paid in cash was £1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of £23, 15s.

16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.

16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.

16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen there?-The father of the family went to Burra.

16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and several sons?-Yes.

16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?- Yes.

16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke out a living in the best way he could.

16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not sufficient to keep them.

16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.

16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more economical.

16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as well as others.

16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than under the other system?-Yes.

Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.

16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in Lerwick?-I am.

16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.

16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.

[The witness put in the following statement:-]

'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief management of their ship-agency business, and particularly as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The masters generally selected first those men who had been with him the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially. Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent. instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned, that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master, but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters' accounts there, although not permitted here.'

16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.

16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in most cases.

16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they had been engaged.

16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been engaged?-No.

16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could not know what they did in other shops.

16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things which the men have to provide jointly.

16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the captains?-Yes.

16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No; the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection have made.

16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?- No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me that he wants to go again in that particular ship.

16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the other men who come forward.

16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.

16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his former crew?-No.

16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not entered in your books?-No.

16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then he takes his own men.

16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and see if there vacant berth that will suit him.

16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along with the rest.

16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take any man he chooses.

16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.

16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?- Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose.

16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the captain?'-Not to my recollection.

16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board and apply to him themselves.

16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?- They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in collecting his men.

16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House, so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that, and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and see the thing completed.

16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them in the articles.

16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there.

16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably; except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him that I can say nothing for him.

16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But there are very few men of that kind.

16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any.

16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the year previous?-I do not recollect any.

16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No, not to my knowledge.

16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use.

16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of 100 or 200.

16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by the master; he was always present.

16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we were concerned. I cannot speak for others.

16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done.

16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them himself.

16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes.

16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might re-ship.

16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one third of new hands?-Yes.

16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that man may be able to recommend another to him.

16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to your recommendation?-Perhaps he does.

16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good hand.

16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than them.

16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he selected any one of the three that he liked himself.

16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another, have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?- In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him before, and he recommended another man with whom he was acquainted, and the captain engaged him.

16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could have from hearsay?-That is very likely.

16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No. If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it, he took him.

16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master.

16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with.

16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will supply them.

16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their custom?-There is no force in that case.

16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not.

16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for the men in case they want it.

16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit, or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they have never been forced to do so.

16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it.

16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do.

16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it was in former times, because there was an agency in the house before my time, and I came into it after it was established.

16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would have given it up sooner.

16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have.

16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?- Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there were then.

16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months is not like one of five or six months.

16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the profits must be less.

16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much to the men this year as we did when we had the agency.

16,596. Even when you had a great number of green hands?- There are not many green hands going now, because the outfits cannot be given to them. That has been the experience of the last few years.

16,597. But, apart from green hands, is not the amount of out-takes by these men less than it was ten or fifteen years ago?-With some men it is as much, and with others far less.

16,598. Do you think that upon the whole it is less?-I have not looked into that, and I could not be sure about it.

16,599. Have you any general impression about that matter?- When there were some green hands going of course they required a larger outfit than they require now.

16,600. I am putting the green hands out of view altogether; I am referring to the able seamen. Do you think that their accounts altogether are not less than they were formerly?-In some cases they are.

16,601. Are they not less upon the average?-I daresay [Page 423] they are, because men do not require so much now as they used to.

16,602. Is it not the case that you have been less willing to make large advances to any class of seamen since the regulations of the Board of Trade in 1867 or 1868?-We would give some men what they required, and to others we would not.

16,603. Do you mean that to men you knew you would give what they required?-Yes, but to strangers we would not.

16,604. Is that because your security in the case of strangers is much less than it was formerly?-Yes.

16,605. Is not that one reason why you are giving it up?-No. The chief reason is that the commission is small, and the trouble is great. We cannot get all the men together at one time for settlement, or else it would be soon done.

16,606. But if you had the same returns from the men's accounts which you had formerly, would not that be sufficient remuneration for your trouble?-It would not.

16,607. Would you require larger accounts now than you had before, even at the most flourishing time?-No, not larger accounts; but we would require a better commission.

16,608. But larger accounts would serve the same purpose, would they not?-I don't know. We have so much trouble in bringing the men together and getting them settled, that the commission is not sufficient for it, and in fact our people wished to give it up in 1867.

16,609. In what respects is the trouble greater than it formerly was?-Because the men don't come together, and we have perhaps to go up with one and then with another, until we get the whole crew discharged.

16,610. Do you mean that formerly you settled at your own office?-Yes. We did so before the Board of Trade regulations were adopted, and we could take the men at any hour in the day and settle their counts with them; but when we have to go to the Custom House, we can only do that in the Custom House hours, and that entails a great deal of extra time and trouble.

16,611. I suppose that in the case of each ship that may involve a dozen visits to the Custom House?-Possibly it may; sometimes more and sometimes less. We try to get as many of the men forward as possible when the ship arrives, if she comes to Lerwick.

16,612. Will each of these visits to the Custom House occupy an hour?-I would not say that it would occupy an hour.

16,613. Could you do it in half an hour?-Possibly we might.

16,614. You would not have more than twenty visits to the Custom House in the case of any ship?-I could not say the number. I have known sometimes that we had to go to the Custom House with one man, and when we came down to the office we found another man ready, and we had just to return again.

16,615. You say in your statement that you are not aware of any case where the men required to be compelled to come forward and pay their accounts?-No. They have always come forward after coming from the Custom House and paid their accounts.

16,616. I suppose the men understand that they are expected to pay their accounts at that time?-Yes, when they get their money.

16,617. Is that the understanding upon which the advances are made to them?-Yes, they know that.

16,618. What would be the consequence if they did not pay at that time?-We would just have to take steps to get payment; that would be the only consequence.

16,619. If a man declined to pay at that particular time, would you have any objection to get him a berth next year?-We could not refuse him, if the master chose to take him.

16,620. But would you help a man to get a berth if he was in debt for the previous year?-I would not care much for that,

16,621. Could you not prevent him from getting access to the captain along with the other men?-No. The place is open for any one to come in, and I could not prevent him.

16,622. But he would have to apply directly to the captain?-Yes, he would have to apply to the captain for a berth; but they all do that.

16,623. But I understand the captain only takes the men who are secured by you?-No; I never said that. The men come to the place themselves, and they know the place as well as we do, because it is always crowded with men, and the captain chooses from among them, what men he wants.

16,624. Are there usually more men than berths?-Yes.

16,625. And I believe there is often a great crush to get into the presence of the captain?-Yes, generally.

16,626. Do you tell me that a man who is in discredit with you, and who has not your good word, or rather who is in your black books, has any chance of getting a berth from a captain?-We never had any experience of such a case, because the men have always paid their accounts.

16,627. Don't you think they have done that under the apprehension that they would not get a berth in the following year, if they did not do so?-I don't know that.

16,628. Might not that be a reasonable explanation of the punctuality with which they come down from the Custom House and pay their accounts?-It might be, but I cannot say. They never expressed anything of that kind to me and I have no reason for thinking so. The men whom we trust are honest men, and we knew they would pay their accounts. If we thought they were not honest men, who would come down and pay their accounts, we would not advance them.

16,629. Would you not give them advances in goods?-No. We always give them the first month's advance in cash.

16,630. But you would not advance them goods if you thought they would not come direct from the Custom House and pay their accounts?-No, not unless they came on their return.

16,631. Have you any doubt that if the master of the ship and the agent concurred in telling the men to go up to the Custom House at once, and have their accounts settled, the men would attend to that direction?-I have done that myself. I have asked the men on board ship before they left it to remain in town until they were discharged at the Custom House, and I could not get them to do so.

16,632. If you told them that you would decline to pay them afterwards, would they not do so?-They knew we could not do that. I remember once making the remark to the shipping master that the law should be imperative upon the men as well as upon the master or agent; and unless that is done I believe the system will never be other than it is.

16,633. When did you tell the men to remain in town until they were discharged?-I have done that several times in late years.

16,634. Did you fix a day when they were to attend?-They know that they should do so within twenty-four hours. For instance if they landed today, we would settle with them tomorrow.

16,635. Would you have any difficulty in doing that?-None.

16,636. Have you ever had any conversation with the men when engaging them with regard to the outfit or supplies they wanted?- Yes. I have had such conversations with them in the shop after they were engaged. They generally go to the country after they are engaged and come back again; there is a certain time allowed to them.

16,637. Had you ever any such conversations with them before they were engaged?-Not about supplies.

16,638. Or about outfit?-No. We don't know what they want until after they are engaged.

16,639. Have you not asked them what they wanted, in order to know?-No. I suppose they can hardly tell themselves until after they begin to inquire.

16,640. But have you never had any conversation with them [Page 424] on the subject before engaging them?-We don't know whether they would be engaged or not until after the engagement was made.

16,641. Have you never had any conversation about what they might want in the event of their being engaged?-I don't recollect doing anything of that kind. It is generally afterwards that any conversation takes place about supplies.

16,642. I suppose, as a matter of course, there is some conversation about that after the men are engaged: they always want something?-When they come to town again before they sail they must have some warm clothing, because men going in that employment require warmer clothing than in any other climate.

16,643. How long is it after the men are engaged before they come back?-They may come back next day, or two days afterwards, or any time the minister fixes for sailing.

16,644. Does the vessel usually lie in Lerwick for some days?-I have sometimes seen her sail on the following day, or sometimes two or three days afterwards. The master fixes the time when the men have to be on board, and they must all be in Lerwick, able to go on board the same day.

16,645. So that in that case there is not much time to arrange about outfit or supplies?-No; I have known men engaged on one day, and go to sea the next.

16,646. Did you give any allotment notes?-We always paid them in cash at the Shipping Office.

16,647. Did you generally give such notes?-Yes, on long voyages, but on sealing voyages we did not.

16,648. Were these notes taken in name of the man's relations?- Yes; of his wife, or father, or sister, or brother.

16,649. Were they not sometimes taken in the name of the agent who was giving them supplies?-No; they were addressed to the agent, to be paid by him.

16,650. But were they not also taken in the name of the agent or of some of his clerks?-Not that I am aware of.

16,651. Was that never done by Hay & Co.?-Not to my recollection.

16,652. Would you be surprised to learn that it had been done in other houses in Lerwick?-It may have been done, but I cannot tell.

16,653. In the conversations you have with the men about their outfit or supplies, is it not usual to suggest what they should take, and where they should get it?-No. We ask them what they want; but sometimes, if it is a man we are doubtful about, we refuse to give him all that he asks.

16,654. But if it is a man you are not doubtful about, do you always ask him what he wants?-We have done that, but he knows what he wants without being asked, and he takes what is necessary.

16,655. Is there any other person here who wishes to make any further statement, or to tender additional evidence?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings in this place.

<Adjourned>.

KIRKWALL; THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1872

THOMAS WILSON, examined.

16,656. I am a weaver in Kirkwall. I was born in Fair Isle, and I lived there till two years and nine months ago. There are between thirty and forty families in Fair Island. They live chiefly by fishing for cod, ling, and saith. They fish chiefly in summer. They have always had to sell their fish to the proprietor, that being a condition of their holding their farms. Their farms are from four to six acres in extent, with a right to the scattald. I believe since I left, they are not allowed to pasture their cattle on the scattald without paying for it. The island belonged, when I first remember, to Mr. Stewart of Brough, in Orkney, whose tacksmen were first Mr. William Strachan, Dundee, and afterwards John Hewison, Westray. Mr. Bruce bought the island about 1864. I remember for about fifteen or twenty years before 1864. I am thirty-five years of age. The people had to sell all their fish to Mr. Strachan and Mr. Hewison. They were told so by them. It was always the custom to sell their fish to the tacksman, who also kept a shop for the sale of goods. There was always a shop, but sometimes no goods were in it. I have seen it without meal for more than ten days, and then the people had no resource but fish, or milk, or anything they could get. That happened in summer. In winter the people always had a supply of meal of their own. There are three or four water-mills on the island, where the people grind their own meal. They are the old-fashioned little mills usual in Shetland. When Mr. Bruce got the property, the meal and goods generally became dearer than they were before. I don't think we have ever wanted meal altogether since he bought the island. We have had to send to Sumburgh for it, but have generally got a supply before our meal was quite done. Sometimes, however, it has been very scarce. When Strachan and Hewison had the island, any one might come to the island to trade; and sometimes James Rendall, of Westray, and sometimes James Smith, Cunningsburgh, came with boats bringing goods and meal. They sold about the same rates as Hewison and Strachan. The reason why we ran short was, that we could not got notice sent. The steamer did not use to stop for us then, but now we get her to stop for a letter. We have had to sell the fish to Mr. John Bruce, jun. and to him only, since Mr. Stewart sold the island. The price of fish has been fixed by the man who comes to settle, which is in June or July. That settlement is for the previous year, up to the 1st of May immediately preceding. I have seen them miss a year. I have been told that Mr. Bruce has missed a year since I came to Kirkwall. There are very few pass-books. The accounts are all read over to us. We couldn't always remember everything we had got. I suppose we had just to take it as it was. The factor on the island read over the accounts, and he handed a note of the total to Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine, who came to settle with us. We got cash if there was a balance in our favour, but never in the course of the season. We never asked for money during the season; it was no use to ask for it, for we would not get it. I don't remember if any one ever asked for it. We could sometimes buy from Rendall, who is the only person that has come to trade there since Mr. Bruce bought the island. Since Mr. Bruce came, he has not had liberty to trade; and he erected a stage on the seashore, and people bought from him there. Formerly he and Smith carried on their trade in the house where they lodged. I suppose Mr. Bruce had forbidden that; at least all the people understood so. They used to lodge with Mrs. Thomas Wilson, near the shore. Rendall's prices were always a good deal lower than the prices at the shop. Their tea and sugar were cheaper. Mr. Bruce has tea at 11d., and I remember once at 15d. a quarter; Rendall's was 10d. or 11d. sometimes, I think, as low as 9d. There was not very much difference in the tea. Rendall always had sugar at 6d., common grey sugar; Mr. Bruce's was regularly 7d. I remember [Page 425] Mr Bruce once had loaf sugar at 1d. per oz., or 14d. a lb., about 1867. I don't remember his having loaf sugar in the shop at all at any other time. Rendall's sugar, I think, was 9d. Cottons were bought cheaper from Rendall. His were 10d or 11d., blue and white shirting: Mr Bruce's 1s., or once 16d. The prices did not vary much at Mr Bruce's store from year to year. I remember quite well the price of oatmeal in Fair Isle during my last year there. I paid 30s. a boll. I sometimes got the price when I got it, sometimes only when I settled. I think I knew the price that year only when I settled. The account was sent to me that year after I had left, and 17s. of balance due to me was remitted. I know meal was that year 23s. or 24s. a boll in Kirkwall. Mr Alexander Gibson, merchant, told me so as I came down here. I have the account which was sent to me, in which the total amount of the shop account is entered to my debit (£9, 13s. 4d.). The entry 'By amount from the 'Lessing' account, £6, 17s. 9d.,' which is put to my credit, means payment for lodging to workmen, and for work done by myself at the wreck of the 'Lessing' on Fair Isle. The owners or insurers, I suppose, were the employers of the men who worked at the wreck; but the money came through Mr Bruce. 'By cash, left as a deposit, 11th May 1868, £3,' was money I was fool enough to leave in Mr Bruce's hands at previous settlement at his request. I left it in his hands as my banker. I can't remember buying meal from Rendall on any particular occasion that I could specify. But I know I have bought it from him cheaper than I could get it at the shop. I got it from Rendall at 26s., and I am quite sure, that during the 4 or 5 years I was on the island under Mr Bruce, I never got meal at the store for less than 30s. I remember his (Rendall's) selling goods at night; but that was for his own purposes:-to get his away as soon as he could. I think I have heard of him selling goods at night one time when Mr Bruce and Mr Irvine were there, when they were asleep, but I can't give any distinct statement about that. In 1868, James Williamson, Kirkwall had men working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' which he had bought. His meal was cheaper than that at the store. I had to buy some of Williamson's as there was then none at the store. That was in July. I was employed by Mr. Wilson, the factor, in quarrying for a store Mr. Bruce was building. That was settled in the account at the end of the year. All work was so settled I have already shown. It is the entry 'By work with P. M'Gregor, at 1s a day, 13s 7d.'

Six families left Fair Isle, and came to Kirkwall in 1869. We all left because meal was so dear, and wages were so low. They all left of their own accord. I am sure they all left of their own accord, and were not warned away by the landlord. About 100 people left, in my remembrance, for America in 1862. Government helped them. There had been a great scarcity before that. In general, there is always a scarcity some part of the year. They live mostly on tea, and porridge, and oatmeal cakes. In summer there is a little flour sometimes. They get plenty of fish generally in winter, chiefly by fishing from the rocks. [Being asked if he had anything more to say, depones:] Only about the beach fee in the account already shown. I got only the £3 for the whole half year I worked there. I wrought 22 weeks and a half, and I was to get 5s. a week; but he said because I left the work to work at the 'Lessing' I should get no more. I wrote about it to Mr. Bruce, who wanted a detailed account of my work, which I gave him; but I got no definite answer. When Williamson was working at the 'Lessing,' he was not allowed by the laird to employ men Fair Isle. The landlord or his factor said they would be put out if they worked to him. I was forbidden to work to him myself. Mr. Wilson and Mr. Irvine both forbade me to work to him. I was told I would have to leave the island if I did. I was intending to go, and did go, and am glad I goed [sic]. I have been far better off since I left. I have had better wages, better food, and less work since. The other people from Fair Isle who are here, would say the same, I believe. I think Fair Isle people would be better off, if they had liberty to buy and sell with any person they choose.

Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, MARY DUNCAN or QUIN, examined.

16,657. I live in Kirkwall. I was born in Lerwick, and lived there till 7 years ago. I have knitted for 20 years all sorts of articles of hosiery. I knitted both with my own wool, and for the merchants. I was always paid in goods. I never got a penny in money. I was not much in need of it. I often earned 9s. or 10s. in a week when veils were dear; but generally less than that. I knew many women who depended entirely on knitting for a living; and they had to take the goods and sell them for half-price, to any one who was requiring them. It was sometimes not easy to find people who would buy. They had just to ask among their friends if there was any one who wanted the things they had. I know James Coutts, provision merchant, used to take the goods from knitters. I knew many people who gave them to him for tea and sugar, and sometimes meal. I have been in his shop when such transactions were carried on. I don't know if Robert Irvine dealt in that way. I know Betty Morrison. I know that knitters disposed of their goods to her. I have seen her come to my mother's house with tea and sugar for sale. I knew they were from parties who had been knitters to Mr. Linklater and other merchants. She told us who the tea was from, so that we knew quite well it had been got from some one who had been knitting. Sometimes, too, she would tell who it belonged to. We always got it cheaper than it had been sold in the shop. It was always dearer in these shops than in others, sometimes 15d. a quarter, and we got it from Betty Morrison for 10d. That was very common. Jean Yates, and dozens of others, hawked about goods got from knitters in the same way. I had to buy a great deal more dress than I needed, because I could get nothing else for it. Knitters have all plenty of clothes. Some of them I know have far more clothes than food. I always sell my knitting for money here.

[Shown veil got from Grace Slater, February 5.] I would get 2s. 6d. in goods for that, when knitted with my own wool. Seven years ago, and 3 years ago, when I was home, 1s. or 1s. 4d. in goods, according to the market, would have been paid at Lerwick to one who knitted such a veil with merchant's wool.

[Shown veil from E. Malcomson, February 5.] I would get 1s. 6d. for the veil, wool and all, here.

Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, THOMAS PEACE, examined.

16,658. I am a partner of the firm of Peace & Love, drapers, Kirkwall. I deal considerably in Shetland hosiery, mostly bought in Shetland. I get most from merchants, and a little from private parties, knitters, who meet me at Lerwick. I go there annually. I pay both in cash. I don't get any cheaper, or very little cheaper, from the knitters than from the merchants. I have bought as cheap from the shops as I can buy from knitters. I have no means of knowing whether merchants in Lerwick make any profit on the hosiery. I have been told I was getting goods in the shops at the same price they were bought in at. I never saw the goods bought in. I found knitters in Lerwick eager to sell to me rather than to the merchants there. They at first asked me 50 per cent. more than I could buy the articles in the shops. I told them they were for sale. I have had so much difficulty with them in fixing a price that I now buy the most of my goods from the merchants.

I think a cash system would be much better for parties. I don't think it would affect my business as a [Page 426] purchaser from the wholesale dealers in Lerwick. I think it would be better for the knitters if they got clear with the merchants. I think most of them are in debt to the merchant's shops. Any system would be better than running accounts from one year to another, and from the beginning of one's life to the end.

<Adjourned>

KIRKWALL; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 9 1872

Present-MR GUTHRIE.

LAURENCE WILSON, examined

16,659. I am a fisherman in Kirkwall. I was born and lived in Fair Isle till April 1869. I left because three of us were working at the 'Lessing's' wreck, and we heard we were warned for working at it contrary to the master's (Mr Bruce's) orders, and we left that we might not be warned. There was nothing to do at the fishing at the time worth waiting for, so I and they went to the work. I considered I was under no obligation to fish for him if I could better my circumstance any other way. I was only bound not to fish for any other man than Mr Bruce;-not to fish to him while I could get any other employment. The others who left, did not leave for that reason, but just to better their circumstances. Prices at Bruce's shop were higher than in Strachan's and Hewison's time. Prices were very much raised at the time of the American War, when Mr Bruce got the island. I think prices were higher in Fair Isle than was necessary to cover the prices of carriage. I have no pass-book, for no pass-books were called for or used there. [Produces account for 1868, obtained from Mr Bruce] It was sent to me after I left Fair Isle. 'By amount from boat's account, £4, 0s. 3d.;' that's the price of fish. 'By a quey, sold by auction at Dunrossness cattle sale, 19s., less money and auction expenses, 5s. 6d.-13s. 6d.' We were not allowed to sell our cattle to any one but Mr Bruce. The factor told us. I never attempted to sell cattle to any one else; but no doubt others did. I left the island before the time when Thomas Wilson wanted to sell his cow to Rendall for £5, 10s. If that was so, I think I could have got more for my quey than 19s., but never was offered more. Mr. Bruce did not settle for the spring fishing when he came to Fair Isle in summer; but only up to the end of the year. I bought some meal from James Rendall in summer. It was cheaper than I got it at the same time from the shop. I can't tell exactly the price paid to Rendall that year; but I remember well enough that the shop price was 30s. a boll. I bought from Rendall at 24s. in 1868, and Mr Bruce's price was then 30s. Rendall was also cheaper than the shop in 1867. I got from Rendall tea at 9d. and 10d., while the shop was 11d. and 13d. I am not a very good judge of tea. Rendall's sugar was 6d. (common soft), shop sugar of the same quality being 7d. Rendall's loaf sugar was 8d. I have never bought that sugar at the shop; but I heard factor tell others it was 13d. a pound. I had no particular need of it at that price. There was no difference in the price of coffee. Rendall's cottons were also cheaper, but I don't remember the exact prices. I always keep my own account, and could check the account as it was read over to me by the factor. When I lived in the island I never got money till settlement, and never asked for it, because it was usual. Before Mr Bruce's time we all went sometimes to Orkney for meal, but not since, because he sent supplies. That was partly because we did not need to go, and partly because in Hewison's time we had leave to manufacture our own oil, and we went to sell it, and brought back supplies. We thought we had more of livers before than we got from Mr Bruce. I don't remember getting meal from Mr Bruce for less than 30s. When Mr Williamson was in the island I got some from him 3s. or 4s. a boll cheaper. Rendall was forbidden in Mr. Bruce's time to sell his goods in Mrs. Wilson's house, and he began to sell them at the shore. I think the men in Fair Isle would be better if they had liberty to fish to whom they please. I think they would be better to leave it altogether; for it is a very poor place, and they are subject to many hardships. They remain because some of them are poor and in arrears to the master, and have not means to get away. The hardships are the want of a harbour for large boats: they never have crews of more than three men or two, and two boys. They are sometimes scarce of food in summer, and their boats are too small for crossing often to Orkney or Shetland, though they do so sometimes. It is often a great risk. Larger boats do come sometimes in summer and anchor in a small harbour. They sometimes haul them up; but a big boat can't stay there when there's a weighty sea on, unless hauled up. I know we got 10s. a ton less for fish than was paid at Grutness. It was only an account brought by others that I was to be put away for working at the 'Lessing.' I told Wilson I was going away, and he said he got no word from Mr. Bruce to that effect. After I prepared to go, Mr. Bruce asked me to stay in the same farm. Rents were greatly raised in Fair Isle,-I know that by a letter from the factor a short time ago,-to the amount of £1 to £3 on each farm. Jerome Wilson, the factor, is my uncle. Most people in the Fair Isle are related to one another. Dr. Craig, now of Westray, Mr. Macfarlane and Mr. Arthur have been clergymen in the Fair Isle in my time. I think they always got their supplies from Lerwick. The women sell their hosiery to Mr. Bruce, Mr. Warren, Kirkwall, and James Rendall. All the wool is made up into cloth or hosiery before it leaves the isle so far as I know.

Kirkwall, February 9, 1872, CHARLOTTE SUTHERLAND, examined.

16,660. I live in Kirkwall. I am a knitter. I was brought up in Lerwick, and lived there till 1867 or the beginning of 1868. I then went to Edinburgh, and have been here since May. I was in Lerwick for three weeks in April. I lived with my father, and knitted goods, mostly for the merchants, but sometimes with my own worsted. I did not need to support myself entirely till my father died in 1866. After that, I knitted to Miss Jessie Ogilvy for money, and for the shops for goods. I never asked money from the shops. I got enough money to keep myself from private people; at least I had to be content with it. I had to leave Lerwick for that reason. Knitting does very well in Lerwick for those that have friends to live with and keep them, but not for me when I had to look out for myself. I knew a great many in Lerwick who lived entirely by knitting. I think they were paid almost entirely in goods. I think a number just take the goods out of the shops and sell them again to get their food, and money for rents. I have heard plenty of them say so. I know it was so when I was back lately. I could not say the names of any persons just now. Mary Ann Moodie was one. I never saw any of them selling their goods. Our people were often offered tea or soft goods by parties who lived by selling such [Page 427] articles got from knitters. I knew that because they told us so. When they sell shawls or veils they get so much, and they take a line for the balance, and get what they want till it's done, and sometimes more than they want, and sell it in order to get provisions. The women selling such goods would not name the one they got them from, but just that some one had got it for work, and had to part with a portion of it. I remember these women perfectly well. There was Betty Morrison and Jean Yates, who were in that custom for many years. They surely did a great deal in that way. They did not get the price put on the goods in the shop. I know that, because these women offered us 10d. tea for 6d. I did not take it, because I was always knitting and getting it for ourselves. I never heard of women bartering their goods for provisions in the provision shops. I never heard of them selling or bartering their goods to Robert Irvine or James Coutts.

EDINBURGH: MONDAY, APRIL 8, 1872.

Present-MR GUTHRIE.

GEORGE SINCLAIR SUTHERLAND, examined.

16,661. This sitting was held for the purpose of examining Mr. Methuen before he went to England, but I have received intimation that he is forbidden by his medical adviser from undergoing any examination on account of his health, and I understand you have come here to speak, to some of the points on which I wished information from him?-Yes; he asked me to attend for that purpose.

16,662. You have been for some years in Mr. Methuen's service?-Yes; for eight years.

16,663. In what capacity?-I had charge of looking over the agreements and settling with fishermen for the first five or six years; and I have since conducted the correspondence, and taken the management of his business.

16,664. Have you had the principal management of his business during his absence in consequence of ill health?-I have, during the last twelve months.

16,665. Has Mr. Methuen the largest business as a fish-curer in Scotland, both in curing herring and cod and ling?-Yes; particularly in curing herring, and pretty extensively in the curing of other kinds of fish.

16,666. You don't say that he has the largest business in curing cod and ling?-No, I would not say that.

16,667. Has he stations on every part of the Scotch coast?-Yes, all round the east and west coasts of Scotland; also in the north of England, and at Yarmouth; and also at Howth in Ireland.

16,668. I believe that at one time Mr. Methuen carried on business in Shetland?-Yes.

16,669. Where were his stations there?-They were near Lerwick, at Cumlywick and Sandwick.

16,670. Are these places about ten miles from Lerwick, near Sandlodge?-I understand so.

16,671. Do you know the reason why Mr. Methuen gave up business in Shetland?-He gave up business there about six years ago, in consequence of the proprietor, Mr. Bruce, taking over the whole boats and crews into his own hands, in order to carry on the business himself.

16,672. Have you been in Shetland?-I have not.

16,673. Had you any acquaintance from books or otherwise with the way in which the business was conducted there?-I had very little experience in the Shetland business at all.

16,674. Who settled with the men in Shetland?-It was our managers there.

16,675. Are they in Mr. Methuen's service now?-They were not regularly in his service. There was perhaps one man for one, and another for another year; but the books are in Leith, and they were always checked by one party there. The clerk who checked the books in Leith is still in Mr. Methuen's service, and he could speak with regard to the settlement with the Shetland crews. 16,676. Did he go down to Shetland for that purpose?-He did not. He simply checked the books after they came here.

16,677. Had Mr Methuen a shop for supplying his men with goods in Shetland?-I am not aware that he had.

16,678. I understand he does not keep shops for that purpose at any of the stations?-No.

16,679. Has he any stations in outlying remote places?-In the Hebrides he has.

16,680. In those places does he carry on business efficiently without having any shop with which to supply his men?-Yes; they can supply themselves with what they want.

16,681. Where are those stations?-They are scattered all round the Hebrides: in the Lewis Island, and down in the Southern Hebrides, in the islands of Barra, Castleby, Vattersay, and the Uists.

16,682. Are the stations where the fish are delivered usually near the houses of the fishermen, or have they to go some distance with them?-The fishermen in the Southern Hebrides come round from the east coast of Scotland and go to fish there, and they build themselves huts in which they live while they are ashore. Our coopers and women have houses or huts erected for them also on which they live. They take out a supply of provisions with them, which will perhaps last half the time.

16,683. Who do that?-The women and coopers; and they are always getting provisions back and forward when they are at the fishing; because, in point of fact, in the southmost part of the island of Barra and Castleby and Boisdale, there are no shops at all. There is only one public-house in Loch Boisdale, but there are no shops of any kind there. In the southmost island, Vattersay, is uninhabited, and the men take out provisions and everything they want with them, and they fish there during the six weeks of the fishing.

16,684. Where do they get their provisions?-They take them with them from home, or they get them sent out to them from the east coast.

16,685. Do they purchase them themselves?-Yes.

16,686. You have nothing to do with that?-No. In sending coopers there we allow them extra wages-what are called board wages-during the time they are there, being so much extra per week for going to these places and supplying themselves.

16,687. Is that the universal practice in the Lewis fisheries with all the other fish-curers?-It is. They have coopers to whom they allow so much extra when they are at that fishing.

16,688. But do they follow the same practice with regard to their fisheries?-The fishermen simply get the price per cran which is agreed upon. They are not supplied with provisions at all.

16,689. Is it not the case that there are curers in the Lewis who have shops in Stornoway and other places?-In Stornoway they have shops.

16,690. Are these shops usually kept by the curers?-The curers usually advance money to their fisheries; or if they are from home, they give them a line to the merchant's shop with which they can get any small provisions they require during the time they are out.

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16,691. But do the families of the resident fishermen get supplies from the curers in Stornoway?-Yes; they usually give them a line if they are in poor circumstances.

16,692. Have you any West Highland fishermen in your employment in the Hebrides?-A good many. Last year we had altogether about 270 boats both from the east and west coast, fishing in the Hebrides, at the west coast fishing.

16,693. Did you find that the West Highland men and men resident in the Hebrides were able to supply themselves with provisions in the same way as the east coast men?-No. They are not the same class at all, they are not in the same good circumstances as the east coast men. We usually advance meal and money and materials before they can go to the fishing at all.

16,694. Do you give supplies of meal?-Yes, we usually give them some.

16,695. But I suppose that is merely for their own use during the fishing?-Yes. There is a shop in Stornoway upon which we give the men an order to get any meal they want; but, these men are of the poorer class.

16,696. Have you had any difficulty in getting fishermen in consequence of the necessity they are under for getting advances, and the habit they have got into of receiving advances from the curers in Stornoway?-No; I cannot say that there ever was a short supply of fishermen. At some shops the fishermen had fallen behind in a bad season, and required some advances before they could commence another season, and in that case the merchants have given them the advance they required, and the men fished for them, as it were, without a stated agreement.

16,697. Is that the case everywhere, or are you speaking of a particular locality?-I am speaking more particularly of the northern and western coasts. The practice is quite different along the Moray coast, where the men are in better circumstances, owing to the fact that they have lately had a number of years of successful fishings.

16,698. What is the kind of agreement which you usually make with your fishermen in the Hebrides?-The fishermen who are in independent circumstances agree to a stated price per cran, while the fishermen who require advances usually agree to what is called the current rates given to debted boats. That is usually is to 1s. to 2s. under the free crews; 1s. below has been the usual custom. These have been the general terms of debted boats.

16,699. Is that exactly the same system as is followed at Wick?- Yes; the same system prevails all round the north and west coasts.

16,700. Is there a large proportion of the men in the Lewis fishery who fish upon the terms you have last mentioned?-In some years there are more than others. Of course, if they had had a successful season, there would be fewer of them fishing on these terms next season.

16,701. Will there be one half of them, on the average, who engage on these terms?-Yes; I should say there would be one half of them on the west coast, but not on the east coast.

16,702. In speaking of these men, do you refer to men who are the owners themselves of the vessels in which they fish? I understand that the vessels generally are owned by one or two men, and that the rest are hired men?-That is the case on the east coast, but it is not so on the west. There they usually share and share alike, and probably four or five men have a boat between them, becoming jointly liable.

16,703. Then each man who has a share of a boat gets a share of the fish which are taken by that boat?-That is usually the way. The boat gets one share which goes to the skipper of the boat, as they call him, and the rest of the men get equal shares. In the herring fishing at Wick, the usual way is for one man to own the boat and materials, and to agree so many hired men for the fishing.

16,704. Do you think that a system of paying the men when they deliver their fish would have the effect of keeping them from getting so much into debt as they do now?-I think it would be difficult to work such a system in the far north, or in the Western Hebrides. We could not pay them on delivery there, so as to keep them out of debt. It would certainly be an advantage for all parties concerned if the fishermen would agree to be paid by a price on delivery, as is done on the Fifeshire coast; but from the fact of their being so heavily in debt, and so much encumbered in these northern places, they require some advance before they are able to go to the fishing at all; and it is only perhaps one half of the fishermen who are in an independent position to make terms.

16,705. You think such a system would be an advantage to you because it would simplify your accounts?-Yes; and it would save a great many debts. We reckon that probably 50 per cent. of the amount due by those debted boats is lost to us altogether in our books.

16,706. In what way does that happen?-They run into debt, and get so hopeless, that we have to mark them off as bad debts.

16,707. Does that happen even in your case where you have no shop?-Yes, even where we have no shop or anything of the kind; because, when the fishermen get so hopelessly into debt they don't care what they do, and very often they throw up the fishing altogether and leave the debt. We have had thousands of pounds knocked off in that way as bad debts.

16,708. In what way were these debts incurred?-By advancing the fishermen and trying to get them clear.

16,709. Do you mean advancing them money?-Advancing them money and materials, such as lines and hooks, and always trying to get them to fish clear; but instead of that, some of them go so much behind that their case becomes, quite hopeless.

16,710. Are you speaking now of the boat-owners at Wick and the sharesmen in the Lewis fishing?-Yes; there are a good many debts incurred among them.

16,711. Do these men have ledger accounts in your books, or is there an account for each crew?-We have no individual accounts with the partners. The account is usually headed, So and so and crew, and the place where he belongs to.

16,712. But if you kept a shop and supplied them with goods- as you say the curers in Stornoway do who have shops-there could then be individual accounts in your books?-The curers in Stornoway have not got shops, but they usually give the fishermen an order upon a particular shop where they can go and get supplies. The fish-curers are not the owners of the shops themselves.

16,713. In Wick, I understand, a somewhat similar custom prevails of giving orders upon shops?-Yes; the orders are given upon the shops to get the fishermen supplied during the time of the fishing.

16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the men being in such a poor position.

16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?- No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks, return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately.

16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at the end of the fishing, it is all they need.

16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying the resident men week by week, so that they could have money with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable it might be an advantage.

16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it takes place immediately after the fishing is over.

16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight weeks.

16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more frequently?-On account of the circumstances the men are in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season. They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled.

16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen themselves if they agreed to it.

16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject, but they have always said that such a thing would not work there at all.

16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge.

16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not take place until November or December, and even later?-The reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been completed.

16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes; and they then arrange what the price is to be.

16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish cannot be cured within a month or so.

16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured, and they settle with the fishermen accordingly.

16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by the price of the day.

16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?- Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt. Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and don't require any advances. In the northern districts, on the contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there, they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come out of it.

16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at all?-Yes; they are usually a better class of fishermen altogether on the Fife and Buckie coasts.

16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt.

16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a considerable extent?-Yes.

16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the men, they never think about settling until the end of the season.

16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran.

16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were, by the price of the day.

16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them; and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a stated price throughout it whole season.

16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do if they require them.

16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both.

16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want, the curer becoming responsible for it.

16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash on the nail according to the price of the day? Assuming always that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason in the nature of the business why that system should not be followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is.

16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the market?-Yes.

16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price for every fish they catch.

16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a certain price per fish overhead.

16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be settled with at the end of their six weeks' fishing, in a similar manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle with the men immediately upon the fishing being done.

16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round the Caithness and Buckie coasts.

16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get it to account.

16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It is fixed before the men go to sea.

16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?- Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts, and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season. These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike.

16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but others would not.

16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts.

16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk.

16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it, because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost to nothing, and they are always afraid of that.

16,753. When a great quantity of fish is taken the price falls immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don't want to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many or few.

16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they won't take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their agreement with the bounty.

16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the fish-curers commenced to cure.

16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they gave a bounty of from £5, £10, £15, and up to £30, or even £40, to any crew who would agree to them.

16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes.

16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes; they are all tallied and extended by him.

16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly. They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the commencement of the season.

16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July. They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July, and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that time.

16,761. Is it the same kind of boats that are employed in all these different kinds of fishing?-No; the fishermen have different kinds of boats to suit the different kinds of fishing. In the herring season the owners have hired men in their boats, and each man has his skipper; whereas in the winter fishing five or six or seven of these men go together and fish for themselves.

16,762. But that is still in the same kind of boat is it not?-The half-decked boat is used at Wick; but, in fact, they have boats to suit each fishing that they wish to go to. They usually use the large herring boat for the cod fishing, and a smaller boat for the haddock fishing.

16,763. What is the size of a haddock boat?-I think it is about 26 or 30 feet keel, and open. There is now usually it small deck on it. The large herring boat is from 36 to 42 feet keel; but the boats have increased greatly in size within the last eight or ten years.

16,764. Do you find that as the boats increase in size the fisherman is generally more successful?-Yes. They have the advantage of going a greater distance to sea and staying longer out when their boats are decked, and they return with heavier takes.

16,765. Are you acquainted, from your own experience, with the character of the boats which are used?-Yes. I have gone out to sea and seen how the fishing was carried on.

16,766. Would you consider that a fishing community was at great disadvantage, as compared with other communities, who used only open six-oared boats of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-They would be at a decided disadvantage.

16,767. Perhaps you are aware that that is the case in Shetland, and that in the haaf fishing they go out twenty or thirty miles to sea, and remain out only for it single night at a time?-If they had the large lugger boats which we have on this coast, they could stay out for several nights, having provisions with them and room for their fish.

16,768. Are the large boats you refer to equally available for laying long lines in very deep water and on a rocky bottom?-I cannot say that. There would be more danger with them. They could not work large boats so easily as they could work the small ones.

16,769. What is the depth of water in which your large boats generally fish?-I can hardly say; but when they go out to the banks, thirty or forty miles off, they may fish in thirty or forty fathoms of water in the Moray Firth.

16,770. Perhaps your knowledge of the fishing does not enable you to give much information about that?-No, not practically; but I have gone out three or four times in the season.

16,771. Do you know any district in Scotland or in England where the settlement with the fishermen takes place only once it year as it does in Shetland?-I understand there are two fishings in Shetland: the herring fishing, and the cod and ling fishing.

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16,772. It is the cod fishing I am speaking of. Do you know any place except Shetland where the settlement for any kind of fishing takes place only once a year?-I scarcely know how to answer that question.

16,773. In Shetland the cod and ling fishing is the only one in which they fish for the curers,-leaving the herring fishing out of account,-and they are paid for that only once a year, a considerable time after the end of the fishing. Do you know any of the fishing contracts in the kingdom which are settled at so long a period after the fishing is over?-In Orkney the fishermen are settled with for the herring fishing of August at the end of October. That fishing ends in the middle of September, and they are not settled with before the end of October.

16,774. But is it not the case that, in almost all the cases with which you are acquainted, there is a short season of from five to six weeks, or two to three months, and a settlement takes place at the end of it?-Yes, the final settlement takes place at the end; but at the beginning of the herring fishing the men get an advance. As soon as the fishing is done they get some money to clear off their current expenses, and to pay their hired men; and then about October or November they get a final settlement, when the season's transactions are settled for.

16,775. That is for the herring fishing which commences when?- It commences on 20th July, and that is their great fishing.

16,776. Then there is the Lewis herring fishing, to which a great number of the same men who fish at Wick go?-Yes.

16,777. Is that settled before the herring fishing at Wick begins again?-Yes; it is settled as soon as it is finished.

16,778. Then, if any of these herring fishermen go to the cod and ling fishing in winter, that is settled for the end of that fishing too?-Yes.

16,779. Some of them may perhaps go to the haddock fishing in spring again, and that is settled weekly?-Yes. The haddock fishing is usually settled weekly.

16,780. On the Moray Firth that makes up the whole fishing seasons of the year?-It does.

16,781. And each of these is settled at its close?-Yes.

16,782. So that they will have four settlements in the course of the year?-Yes; four settlements for the various fishings. With regard to the men who go round to the Stornoway fishing, it would scarcely be practicable to settle with them weekly, or before they return home, because of their distance from home and the peculiar nature of the business. The amount actually due to them could not be rightly ascertained until they came home, and all their accounts had been made up and settled.

16,783. Why is that?-Because, from the nature of our business, there are so many places where we give the fishermen the option to run into with their fish, and we would require all the books from these places to be handed over to us and checked, before we could proceed to settle with them.

16,784. Might these fish not be settled for at the station on delivery?-We could settle for them at the station on delivery; but we find so many mistakes occurring afterwards, that unless the books were first checked before the fishermen were paid, we would be apt to lose a good deal.

16,785. How do these mistakes arise?-Because the fishermen may have delivered so many crans of herrings at a different place, where they could not get them entered, and there are so many fishermen of the same name, that one is often confounded with another, unless they are known to the parties, or have 'T' names attached to them, which are a sort of nickname. But the fishermen are quite well pleased when they get their settlement as soon as the fishing is done. It is only along the Fifeshire coast, and about Stonehaven and Aberdeen, that any of the crews during the great summer fishing for herrings are agreed, or deliver their fish by the price of the day, or sell their fish daily.

16,786. Do you know of any other place in the kingdom, except Shetland, where the men have a final settlement only once a year for all the work of the year, whether cod, or ling, or herring, or whatever it may be?-No. The same system does not prevail in any part of the kingdom except Shetland.

16,787. Do you know any other part of the kingdom where the curers universally keep shops to supply their fishermen with meal and soft goods?-No. There may be an instance or two of that kind round the coast, but I may say that I am not aware of any.

16,788. Do you know whether it is a fact that at Wick the men are to a large extent in debt to the curers?-A great many of them are in debt, but there are a great many independent men who are not in debt.

16,789. I understand the men at Wick are divided into two classes: free men and unfree men?-Yes.

16,790. The unfree men have to fish to the curers to whom they owe money on general terms?-Yes; on the general terms of debted boats, and they are settled with by the curer at the end of the season. That is somewhat similar to the custom in Shetland. The fishcurers at the end of the season find the price per cran after they have ascertained the state of the markets, that is, during the month of October, and then pay the unfree men the price, which is usually 1s. per cran less than what is paid to the free boats. That difference is made as a sort of guarantee or security for the risk which they run in advancing boats and nets.

16,791. Is the debt incurred by the fishermen to the curer entirely for boats and nets supplied by the curer?-Yes; and for advances in money.

16,792. Are these advances in money made to a man to enable him to pay his hired men, and so on?-Yes. The fish-curer has a great deal of risk to run in fitting out a debted boat, because he usually becomes security for the hired men's wages; and if he does so he will require to pay them whether they make a good fishing or not.

16,793. What are the wages of the hired men?-They usually range from £6 to £10 along the northern coast.

16,794. What is the cost of a boat at Wick?-A new boat at Wick would cost about £120 or £130.

16,795. Does the curer frequently advance that?-He usually advances one half of it. It is not often that any fish-curer would give a boat to any fisherman who had not any means of his own.

16,796. They expect a fisherman to whom they supply a boat to have some capital equal at least to the cost of one half a boat?- Yes.

16,797. What is the cost of a drift of nets at Wick?-They usually have 40 nets there now, and the cost of a net is about £3, so that a boat and nets would cost about £250 altogether.

16,798. All that expense lies upon the herring fishing alone?- Yes.

16,799. The man, if he is a free man, can use his boat for any of the other fishings except the herring fishing?-Yes. They usually engage also for the Lewis fishing, but not to the same fish-curer. In that fishing he may engage to anybody he likes; but in the herring fishing he must engage to the man who has advanced him his boat and lines.

16,800. Would you say that two-thirds of the men at Wick are unfree men?-No. I don't think there are above one third of the men at Wick who are indebted men. I know every one of them personally, from settling with them, and I have a good knowledge of their circumstances.

16,801. Would you be surprised to hear that an extensive curer in Wick estimated the number of free men at nearly one third, and that the unfree men were two thirds?-I would be surprised at that; because I know that of the number of fishermen who own boats not above one third of them are in debt. It may happen that after a bad fishing many of these men may get a little behind, but after a successful fishing there are not more than one third or one fourth of them who are in debt.

16,802. Are you speaking now only of the boat-owners?-Yes.

[Page 432]

16,803. Does a man remain bound to fish on general terms even when his debt is reduced to a low sum, such as £20 or £30?-He is not bound to do it, because he can find another fish-curer who will give him that advance to enable him to pay off his old curer.

16,804. But then he would be unfree and bound to fish to this new creditor?-The other fish-curer usually gives him the current price of free boats, if the man is considered a good man, when the debt comes as low as that.

16,805. Is there any line where you say that a man becomes free? Do you consider him to be so when his debt is reduced to £50?- When it is under £30, I think the man is considered to be a good man.

16,806. Do you know any district, except in Shetland, where the men are bound to fish for the landlord from whom they hold their ground?-Along certain estates on the Moray coast there are certain villages to which a great many fishermen belong, and I think there is sort of feudal system of the same kind there. There are villages on the estate of Sarklet, near Wick, and at Clyth, and other places, where many of the fishermen have had it in their option to leave the place altogether, and they have usually come down to Wick and been dealt with there as free men. If they fished in the village where they lived before, they had usually to fish to the fish-curer who had obtained the station at groundrent from the proprietor. It was to the advantage of the proprietor to have the fishermen fishing for that curer, so long as they remained on his estate. In these places the price usually ranges 1s. per cran below the town price.

16,807. Is that because the men hold yearly tacks?-They hold crofts year by year, and they are fishermen at the same time.

16,808. Do you know whether they pay their rent to the landlord direct, or through the fish-curer?-They pay it twice a year, at Candlemas and Martinmas, to the landlord; but they are not in the same way bound as the Shetland fishermen are. They are not in the same state of bondage.

16,809. Wherein do you think is the difference?-They are free to leave the place when they like, and they may go down to the town and fish; but they might incur the proprietor's displeasure if they were to go away and leave the place altogether if their crofts were under lease.

16,810. Are these the only cases of the kind which you know?- They are; and they are very small in extent.

16,811. Do you know any districts where it is frequently the case that a fisherman does not receive any money at all in payment for his fish, but runs an account for goods which is more than sufficient to balance the money due for the fish?-There may be a stray case of that kind, but it is not common. Where the fishermen are so negligent that they are hopelessly sunk in debt, the fish-curer, of course, tries to give them as little advance as possible, and to get them to fish as much as possible, in order that they may get out of debt; but in some cases where they make a poor fishing and have been heavily in debt he cannot give them any advance in money, but he may give them an advance in goods.

16,812. Is that a common thing in your experience?-It is not.

16,813. In what districts would you say it was most common?- Along the Caithness coast.

16,814. Can you furnish me from your books with a note of the price cod, ling, and tusk in September, for the last ten or fifteen years?-Yes. We usually buy from the Shetland fish-curers during the month of August. Between May and August we often ask quotations from them for a quantity of fish to be delivered either in Ireland or in Leith in September or October, and they usually send on the quotation in September. We have bought largely in that way during the last ten years, so that I can furnish a list of the prices.

16,815. Do you supply hooks and lines to your fishermen?-There is a little of that done to the Gairloch and west coast fishermen, because there are no places there from which they can supply themselves. We buy the materials in Glasgow, and send them on to the men, and allow them to lie at the debit of the crew's account until they are able to pay for them. The only thing we supply usually is cutch to fishermen.

<Adjourned>.

EDINBURGH: THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 1872

<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.

JAMES LEWIS, examined.

16,816. What are you?-I am a grocer and wine merchant in Canongate, Edinburgh. I have other two places of business besides that.

16,817. Have you carried on an extensive business in Edinburgh?-I have, for nearly forty years.

16,818. You have examined some samples which I sent to you, and given me a report of the values you put upon them?-Yes.

16,819. Is it a correct report?-It is.*

16,820. You examined a small parcel of oatmeal, No. 1 in the report, which you value at 1s. per 7 lbs.: how much is that per boll?-There is 140 lbs. in the boll, so that it would be exactly 20s. per boll. At the time I made the valuation that was a fair average price for it in Edinburgh.

16,821. Was it a good quality of meal?-It was not; not so good as some samples which I have frequently seen. I could not sell it in my premises, for instance.

16,822. Would it be considered inferior quality in Canongate?- Yes.

16,823. Could you not sell it at all?-Perhaps I could sell it; but I should not like to trust selling it to my customers, as they might not like to come back again.

16,824. Is it above or below the average quality of meal that is sold in country districts?-I think that in Shetland it will perhaps be about the average quality sold there, as it has likely been made from oats grown in [Page 433] that country; but it is not like meal made from oats grown in Midlothian.

16,825. Do you know that from any knowledge which you have of Shetland trade?-I don't know anything about it, further than from seeing the quality of the meal which was submitted to me; and comparing it with what could be made in Midlothian, I should say that it was inferior in quality to anything that would be sold as good meal here.

16,826. Perhaps you do not know much about the business which is carried on in country districts?-I cannot say that I have carried it on, but I know a good deal about it.

16,827. Have you examined any samples of meal from districts similar to Shetland?-I have had meal from Aberdeenshire and from Caithness.

16,828. Was this meal which you examined inferior to the average quality of Caithness meal?-It was.

16,829. Was it much inferior?-I could not exactly say that, but it was inferior.

16,830. The sample of tea, No. 2, submitted to you, you have valued at 2s. 4d. per lb.; and you state at the end of your report, that of course an allowance must be made for carriage, etc. to Shetland?-Yes. Of course, tea must be sent to Shetland; they must get it either from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or London.

16,831. Is the value of 2s. 4d., which you have put upon it, what you consider the retail price of that tea would be in Edinburgh?- Yes.

16,832. Would it be reasonable to charge a much higher price than that, in respect of the carriage to Shetland?-I think about 1s. per cwt., or from that to 2s. at the outside, would be the expense of carriage to Shetland.

16,833. That would make a very slight rise upon the price per lb.?-It would be a mere trifle; because there would be about 84 to 90 lbs. in a chest, and they could get that sent down for 1s.

16,834. Would you consider 2s. 10d. an extravagant charge for that in Shetland?-I would; because the value of 2s. 4d. which I put upon it includes the profit of the merchant here.

16,835. Would 2s. 10d. be an extravagant charge for it in Shetland, even as a credit price?-Yes; it would be so anywhere.

16,836. The tea No. 3 you also value at 2s. 4d. per lb.: is there any difference between these two teas?-So far as I could see, I think they are very like the same value. There is a little difference between the style of the two teas, but nothing to affect the actual value of them.

16,837. Could you account for one of them being sold at 81/2d. per qr. and the other at 7d. per qr. lb.?-No; unless the party may have bought the one too dear. The merchant must have his profit in any case; but if he is not a judge of what he is buying, the wholesale merchant will get a larger profit out of him than another.

16,838. Would you be surprised to be informed that these teas were sold at these different prices?-I could not be done in that way.

16,839. But you suppose the Shetland retail merchants may be done in that way?-They may be ignorant of their business, for anything I know. There are a great many small people in the country who carry on such a business as selling tea and who know very little about it.

16,840. Still you think the teas are of the same quality, although one of them was sold at 2s. 4d. and the other at 2s. 10d. per lb.?- So far as I can judge, they are of the same quality; but I could easily suppose there would be a difference of 6d. per lb. in the way I have mentioned.

16,841. From a mistake on the part of the retailer?-Yes; or from his ignorance of his business and the wholesale dealer taking advantage of that.

16,842. Might he not have purchased the No. 3 tea as a bargain, and given his customers the advantage of that?-He might have done that; but it is not likely a Shetland man would do that.

16,843. The sample No. 4 was a specimen of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that a fair quality of sugar?-Yes; a very fair quality of sugar at that price.

16,844. Would 6d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it?-It would be so here.

16,845. Would you consider it an extravagant price in a country district also?-I think it would be. I think 5d. would be about the value of that sugar in Shetland; it would not be more.

16,846. No. 5 is a sample of tea also which you value at 2s. 6d. per lb.?-Yes; it is better than the others.

16,847. Would 2s. 10d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it in Shetland?-I think it might sell there for 2s. 10d., or even 3s. I consider it to be a very good tea.

16,848. You value it at 2s. 6d?-Yes, here; but I think 2s. 10d. would be a fair value for it in Shetland.

16,849. You allow a greater advance upon that tea as sold in Shetland than you did upon the others?-Yes. The higher the price of the tea is, generally speaking, there is a larger profit upon it.

16,850. Do you think a merchant would be fairly entitled to take a larger profit upon No. 5 than upon No. 2?-Yes; a little.

16,851. Then 2s. 10d. would not be a very extravagant charge for it?-I don't think it.

16,852. No. 6 is a sample of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that of the same quality as the other sugar?-There was very little difference between them.

16,853. Would that be fairly charged at 5d. per lb.?-I think it would sell for about the same as the other.

16,854. No. 7 is a sample of tobacco which you value at 1s. per lb.?-Yes; that is the retail price. I cannot say that I am a great judge of tobacco; but that is the retail price in Edinburgh for something like the same quality.

16,855. That is 3d. per oz.: would you consider 4d. per oz. an overcharge for it in a country district?-Yes, I think it would be 1d. of an overcharge. They buy it for about 3s. 4d. per lb., and I consider that 8d. upon a pound of tobacco is a very fair profit.

16,856. No. 8 is also a sample of tobacco which you value at 4s. per lb.: was it of the same quality?-So far as I am able to judge it was.

16,857. No. 9 was a sample of tea which you value at 3s. per lb.: would 1s. 1d. per qr. lb. be too much to charge for it?-It would be too much to charge for any of the teas that were submitted to me.

16,858. Was this the best of the teas?-I thought so.

16,859. Was it considerably superior to the others?-I thought so; but 4s. 4d. would be far too much to charge for it.

16,860. No. 10 is a sample of loaf sugar which you value at 6d.: would 8d. per lb. be too much for it?-It would be too large a price to charge for it.

16,861. Even in Shetland?-I think so.

16,862. You have stated in your report that the sample of flour, No. 11, was not fit for use?-I considered so.

16,863. Do you think that arises from it having been kept too long after being got from the shop?-No, I don't think it is flour at all. It seems to be a sort of mixture that I would not like to give to a pig.

16,864. I now show you the sample No. 11 again: is that [showing] the flour you refer to?-Yes.

16,865. You don't think it is fit for use at all?-I do not; at least I don't think it would do in Edinburgh.

16,866. What is it?-My opinion is, that there is good deal of barley-meal in it, not flour at all.

16,867. Then, if that is the case, it would in your opinion be overcharged at 2d. per lb.?-Yes. That would be 14d. per peck of 7 lbs., or 46s. per bag, which is about the price of the best flour just now.

16,868. What was it in December or January last?-It was cheaper than it is now.

16,869. Then you think that 2d. per lb. would have been an absurd charge for that flour at that time?-Perfectly absurd.

[Page 434]

16,870. No. 12 is a sample of rice which you have valued at 21/2d. per lb.: was that rice of good quality?-Yes; it was of fairish quality.

16,871. Would 31/2d. be too much for it?-It would be more than could be got for it here.

16,872. Would it be extravagant to charge that price for it in an outlying country district?-I think it would. I think 3d. would be the outside that could be got for it.

16,873. Are you aware that the expense of carriage to some of these places must be pretty high?-They have direct communication to Lerwick twice a week, which, as I said before, cannot exceed 2s. per cwt., and that would be about 1/4d. per lb.

16,874. Supposing it had to be conveyed thirty miles from Lerwick, that of course would increase the expense?-Of course it would add to the expense; but I have been speaking of the direct communication between Edinburgh and Lerwick.

16,875. No. 13 is a sample of soap, which you value at 4d. per lb.: was that a good quality of soap?-It was middling; but it was in such a state from being dried up, that one could scarcely judge of it. However, I think that would be about its value.

16,876. Had it been injured by being kept?-It gets dry and hard from the moisture getting out of it. If I had seen it cut from the bar, I might have come nearer a proper judgement of it.

16,877. Do you think 6d. per lb. would be too high for it?- Decidedly; either for it or any kind of soap.

16,878. You think that even although you had seen it cut from the bar you could not have put so high a value as that upon it?-I could not.

16,879. Can you say generally with regard to the samples, that any of them were deteriorated by having been kept for some time after leaving the shop?-I do not think they had been much affected. The sugar may have changed its character a little by being dry, and also the soap; but I don't think any of the other articles could be much deteriorated in value by that.

16,880. Would you make any allowance in your estimate of their value on that account?-No; I just valued them as I saw them, according to the best of my judgement.

16,881. Do you think it would be fair to make any such allowance?-No, I don't think it would be necessary.

16,882. Is it usual to charge a higher price for such goods in country districts than in the town?-Generally it is the case that a rather higher price is charged. There is less competition in business, and there can be no doubt that in a country district you pay more for articles than in town.

16,883. But, on the other hand, rents are lower in the country than in the town?-No doubt they are; but the amount of business is usually much less.

16,884. Making full allowance for that, however, do you think that certain of the articles which have been submitted to you have been overcharged?-I think the whole of them have been. There is one thing I may mention, which is, that looking back fifty years ago they had then no direct communication between Shetland and the large towns in the country, and the merchants there were longer in being paid for what they sent south; but now they are paid within ten days of the time when they send their goods to Edinburgh or Glasgow or Newcastle, or wherever it is, and that makes a very considerable difference to these merchants.

16,885. What goods do you refer to?-Any kind of goods that the islands furnish. If the merchants send eggs, butter, bacon, or anything of that kind, to people in Edinburgh or Glasgow, they get a remittance in cash within ten days for the amount of the goods sent. Formerly that could not be the case, because they had to wait perhaps for a sailing vessel once a month, or something like that; and that makes a great difference to the people in Shetland.

16,886. Do you receive large consignments of eggs and butter from Shetland?-I get large consignments from Caithness, but not from Shetland.

16,887. But you know that the practice with Shetland is to remit back at once for that?-Yes, at once.

*Mr. Lewis's report stated the following as his valuation of the different samples submitted to him:- No. 1 Oatmeal, per 7 lbs. £0 1 0 No. 2. Tea, per lb., 0 2 4 No. 3. Tea, do., 0 2 4 No. 4. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2 No. 5. Tea, do., 0 2 6 No. 6. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2 No. 7. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0 No. 8. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0 No. 9. Tea, do., 0 3 0 No. 10. Loaf Sugar, do., 0 0 6 No. 11. Flour, not fit for use. No. 12. Rice, per lb., 0 0 21/2 No. 13. Soap, do., 0 0 4

The samples Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4 were those purchased at Mossbank by the witness A.T. Jamieson, 7954; Nos. 5 and 6 were samples obtained by the Commissioner personally, at Messrs. Spence & Co. at Uyea Sound; No. 7 was obtained at the shop at Grutness; No. 8 from the shop of Mr. Gavin Henderson, Scousborough; and Nos. 9 to 13 were produced by the witness Charlotte Johnston, as having been purchased at the shop of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend.

Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, MAGNUS MOWAT, examined.

16,888. Are you a boat-builder in Newhaven?-I am.

16,889. Do you do a large business there in building boats for fishermen?-Yes, I do a pretty large business.

16,890. Do you know the style of boat that is built in Shetland?- Yes. I have seen one or more of them at Wick, when I was there at the herring fishing.

16,891. You mean the six-oared boat of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-Yes. I have seen one at least of those dimensions.

16,892. Do you build boats of that kind yourself?-No. Our boats are much superior to the boats there.

16,893. Can you say at what price you could build a of 22 feet keel in the style of the Shetland boat?-I could hardly say.

16,894. What do you get for a boat of that size, such as you are in the habit of building?-£22, 10s. That is just for the shell of the boat, with the ironwork attached to it. The men have the masts, sails, and oars to supply on their own responsibility.

16,895. How much would the mast and ropes and other fittings cost, including the sail?-I don't know what quantity of ropes they would require, but with the yawls which are used in fishing in the Firth of Forth, it generally costs about £1, 10s. to fit them with mast and oars, and the necessary spar, without the sail. The sail, I think, would cost about £4.

16,896. You have seen a Shetland boat: have you any idea whether such a boat as is used there would cost more or less than a boat such as you have been speaking of?-The Shetland boats of the same size would not be half the value of our boats here.

16,897. Why?-Because the timber is inferior, and they are lighter. I might have 24 timbers in a side, when they would only have 10 or 12.

16,898. Are your boats built in the same style as the Shetland boats? Are they clinker-built?-Yes; but I don't suppose they use the same materials. I think it is Norwegian timber they use; and if that is so, the cost of them would be considerably less.

16,899. About how much less would it be?-I cannot calculate that exactly, because wages there are less than they are here.

16,900. What would be the difference in the cost of the timber? Would it be so much as one half?-No. Larch is about 14s. per 100 feet of planking, and the timber they use would be from 8s. to 10s.

16,901. I suppose boat-builders' wages are considerably less in Shetland and Caithness than here?-Yes; they are from 6s. to 8s. a week less, at any rate. I pay 24s. here, and I should think that 16s. would be about their figure there.

16,902. How long will one of your boats last?-From seventeen to twenty years.

16,903. Is that the ordinary calculation as to the life of a boat?-It depends a great deal upon the kind of work they are put to. In some cases they do not last so long; but if they are preserved from accident, they may last for that time.

16,904. Will a Shetland boat, such as you have seen, last its long as that?-It will not last so long, according to my judgement.

16,905. Suppose it were used only for three or four months in the summer, would it last longer than it would do if it were more used?-Certainly it would.

16,906. But you think it would not last so long in any case its seventeen or eighteen years?-No. The frame is much weaker: there are fewer ribs in it than in our boats; because, while in a Shetland boat there might be a rib every 2 or 3 feet, I might have them 10 or 12 [Page 435] inches apart, and of course the ribs are the strength of the boat.

16,907. Would twelve or fourteen years be the outside of the life of a Shetland boat?-I would suppose that would be about as long as they could run them with safety.

16,908. About how much do you think it takes to keep up a boat of that size?-1s. a day during the time she is at work would keep her up amply.

16,909. Suppose she were at work for 100 days in the year, that would be £5. Do you mean to say that for every year a boat is at work she will require £5 for repairs to keep her up?-The Newhaven fishermen allow that for their 25 feet yawls. A sail is not supposed to last above five years, or not more than three years without repairs; and then they have the chance of breaking oars, or any other accident that may occur. The allowance of 1s. a day may be it little too much to cover all that; but there is an eighth share allowed for the repairs of a boat in the case of the large decked boats.

16,910. Are these the new boats which you have now got at Newhaven?-No, they are the boats which were built in Caithness nine or ten years ago. There is an eighth or a ninth share allowed to the owner to keep them up.

16,911. Is that a ninth share of the fish taken?-Yes, or of the money; but these Caithness boats are much dearer in price and of better value than the Shetland boats.

16,912. From whom do you generally take your orders for building boats? Is it from the fishermen or from the curers?-From the fishermen altogether. I built one for Westray, in Orkney, last year, and I also built a little one that went to Stromness.

16,913. Were these open boats or half-decked?-They were small boats of about 18 feet keel. The one that went to Westray, I built her for £14, because she was so light.

16,914. Do you think that £20 would be about the cost of one of the Shetland six-oared boats ready for sea?-I would think they were not too dear at that, if the sail and everything was provided.

16,915. Do you know anything about the practice of hiring boats to fishermen on any part of the coast?-Yes. I was twelve years at the herring fishing at Wick, and I knew about it there.

16,916. But the boats you had there were of a different class?- Yes, they were far better boats than the Shetland boats. I had a boat myself that cost me £94.

16,917. Are you able to say what would be a fair hire to charge for one of the Shetland six-oared boats?-No; it depends altogether on the material of which the boat is made. If I had seen the boat, I could at once have given an opinion.

16,918. Suppose a fisherman was hiring one of the boats such as you have seen for a season, that is, for about 31/2 months in summer, what would be a fair rate of hire to pay, supposing the boat had cost £20?-The boat would require about one half of a man's share, whatever was the income, unless they made a bargain for so many pounds for the three months, or the two months, or whatever period was fixed.

16,919. Would £2, 10s. be an extravagant hire for that period?-I don't think it would.

Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, DONALD DAVIDSON, examined.

16,920. What are you?-I am a fish-curer in Burntisland.

16,921 Were you for a long time in the employment of Mr. Methuen?-Yes.

16,922. Have you again gone into his employment?-Yes.

16,923. Are you acquainted with the system of agreements between the fish-merchants and fishermen throughout all the Scotch fishings, both on the east and west coast?-Yes; I have had a good deal of experience of them.

16,924. Had you anything to do with Mr. Methuen's fishing transactions in Shetland?-Not particularly. I occasionally sent stock there when ordered, such as empty barrels and salt to supply the stations.

16,925. How long is it since these stations were given up?-About two years ago, I think.

16,926. Do you refer to the stations in the Sandwick district?- Yes.

16,927. Had Mr. Methuen any shop there?-No.

16,928. Do you know how the fishermen there got their supplies during the fishing season?-I understand that a party who held the land where the fishermen resided agreed for the boats with the proprietor, and paid the proprietor at the end of the season, and then the proprietor settled with the men. If they required any goods during the fishing season, I think they got a line from the proprietor to go to the shops in Lerwick or Scalloway for them.

16,929. But I thought it was Mr. Methuen who agreed the boats?- I think that most of the boats that he had were agreed in that way.

16,930. Had he an agent in Shetland?-Yes. The men who fished for him belonged to a certain district, and the proprietor of that district had a control over the boats, and it was him who arranged with Mr. Methuen.

16,931. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen's agent there was in the habit of giving lines to the fishermen to enable them to get supplies from the shops in Lerwick?-I am not aware of that.

16,932. I thought that was what you said?-No; it was the proprietor of the land in the district where Mr. Methuen had the fishing station that gave the lines to the fishermen.

16,933. Was that Mr. Bruce of Sandlodge?-Yes.

16,934. Were Mr. Methuen's arrangements to get these boats to deliver their fish to him all made with the proprietor?-Yes.

16,935. Then he had no direct agreement with the fishermen?-I understand not.

16,936. Have you any personal knowledge about that?-The information I received was from the men who had charge there for Mr. Methuen.

16,937. Are any of these men now in Edinburgh?-I don't think they are.

16,938. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen was in the habit of making payments to the fishermen during the fishing season, or whether all his payments to the fishermen were made at the end of the season?-I understand that if any advance was given to the men, it was given through the proprietor, Mr. Bruce.

16,939. What is the nature of the contract entered into with the men employed in the cod and ling fishing in Lewis and the western islands?-The boats are agreed at a certain time, sometimes in March, to commence to fish about 20th May, and they get so much per cran and so much of bounty.

16,940. Have you made such contracts yourself, both on your own and on Mr. Methuen's account?-Yes; but principally for Mr. Methuen.

16,941. Do the men receive the bounty at the commencement, or before the commencement of the season?-The way in which it is done is this: the fish-curer and the fishermen make the contract in March, and then the men generally get the bounty a fortnight or a month after the time of agreeing, or at all events they generally get it before they commence to fish.

16,942. What is the purpose of giving the bounty?-I suppose there is no particular reason for it. I understand some curers like to give it in order to procure the best boats, and to be an inducement to the men to contract with them.

16,943. Is the price per cran invariably fixed before the beginning of the season?-If the boats are agreed, as they generally are on the Moray Firth-

16,944. But I am speaking of the Lewis fishery alone. You mentioned about a price per cran, which I suppose applies only to the herring fishing, while I was asking you about the cod and ling fishing?-I don't know [Page 436] much about the arrangements with the cod and ling fishermen; but I understand they get it certain amount per cwt. or per dozen of fish.

16,945. I thought you said you had made arrangements with the Lewis and West Highland fishermen?-Not for the cod and ling fishing. I have made arrangements with them for the herring fishing; but I understand the bargains are made on the same principle.

16,946. Have you made bargains for the herring fishing at the Lewis?-Yes. I have agreed boats at the Lewis for Mr. Methuen.

16,947. Were these boats belonging to the Lewis, and were the fishermen living there?-Yes; both the fishermen and the boats belonged to the Lewis.

16,948. In that case, when did the settlement take place?-I was there two seasons, and I settled with them generally at the end of the season-in the end of June.

16,949. Did the men get advances before the end of the season to any extent?-Yes; they generally got pretty large advances.

16,950. In what form were these advances given?-In some cases they got them in nets and ropes and bark, and sometimes in cash too.

16,951. Do you supply them with the nets and bark, and other things they require?-Yes; that is the general practice in Stornoway.

16,952. Do they also get supplies of food and meal before the end of the season?-Yes; sometimes.

16,953. Where do they get them?-It is generally from the curers that they get their supplies of nets and ropes, so on.

16,954. But Mr. Methuen has not a shop in Stornoway?-No; but he generally supplies the fishermen there with these things if they cannot get them otherwise. He does not prohibit them from getting them from the native merchants; but he usually keeps a supply for any one who may require them.

16,955. Does he supply any meal at all?-None that I am aware of.

16,956. But what I asked you was, whether the men required supplies of meal during the fishing season, if you know where they get them?-I suppose they get them from the native merchants.

16,957. Do you know whether the curers have to make such supplies or to guarantee such supplies in the Lewis?-Yes. I understand they give the men a line or a letter stating that they will be responsible for the price.

16,958. Have you had to do that in your own experience?-No; but I am aware that it is done at Wick, and I think at Stornoway too.

16,959. Do you know of any cases at Stornoway in which it had to be done?-No.

16,960. Are the fishermen in the Lewis very much indebted to the curers?-They are.

16,961. Is that chiefly for nets and boats?-Yes. In some cases the fish-curers give them boats, and perhaps nets too, and when they don't make it good fishing they get into debt in that way.

16,962. Have you had any experience at all of the cod and ling fishery?-No.

16,963. Have you not had any management of the fisheries in Fife or on the east coast of Scotland?-I have been at Fraserburgh and Rosehearty, but that was principally in connection with the herring fishing.

16,964. Are you not acquainted with the cod and ling fishing on the cast coast of Fife?-No; but I understand that in Fife the fish are sold each day. The supply regulates the demand; and the men are not generally agreed at all.

16,965. Would there, in your opinion, be any difficulty in settling for the fish as they are delivered, in the western islands and in Shetland?-No. Perhaps it might take a little time to bring about the proper arrangements; but I think it would work better if such a system were adopted.

16,966. Would it work better in the Wick herring fishery too?-I see no reason why it should not.

16,967. Would it be more convenient for the curers?-They would not make such large profits, I would suppose.

16,968. Why would the system of paying for the fish as they are delivered lessen the curers' profit?-My experience, on the east coast at least, has been, that the free boats are much more independent than the others. The men seem to have a better class of boats, and better material generally, when they can get their money daily or weekly or monthly, as they may call for it. These men can get their money daily if they wish it.

16,969. I thought these free boats were settled with at the end of the season, just like the others: is not that so?-Not generally. They don't have a regular place for delivering their fish. They may deliver them at one place today, and at another place next day, and when they fish in that way they generally collect their money daily; but at some places, such as North Sunderland, where the Fisherrow boats fish, they sometimes do not take the whole amount until the end of the season, except the small amount they get in supplies.

16,970. Do you say that at some places the free boats are paid just as they deliver their fish?-Yes.

16,971. Where is that?-At Burntisland, for instance. When boats come up from Anstruther or Buckhaven, they deliver their fish, and we pay them on delivery, the same day.

16,972. Are these fish for curing, or for the fresh market?-For both.

16,973. Does that lead to any difficulty?-None whatever. I have had about twenty-eight years' experience of that system of paying daily.

16,974. I suppose it saves you keeping accounts with the fishermen?-We keep an account of the fish we have received, but we have no running accounts with the men.

16,975. What kind of fish do you refer to as being delivered in that way at Burntisland?-Principally herrings.

16,976. Do you take delivery of cod and haddocks in that way too?-No; it is very seldom that boats come up in that way with them. When they do, they sell them to the inhabitants and get cash for them.

16,977. Have you had any management of the fisheries at Anstruther?-Yes; I was two winters there, during the time of the winter fishing, buying herrings, and we paid in the same way as we do at Burntisland-just when the fishermen liked to call for their money, which was generally weekly. Some boats were paid daily, but others did not come asking for the money until the end of the week.

16,978. The quantity of fish delivered was marked down in the fish-book each time?-Yes.

16,979. So that you knew exactly how much the men had to get?- Yes. The price was extended in the book.

16,980. Had the price been fixed at the beginning of the season?- No. The price was fixed daily, according to the market, the supply regulating the demand. That is the system at Burntisland, and at Anstruther, Pittenweem, and St. Monance.

16,981. Are the fishermen at these places in a prosperous condition under that system?-I think so.

16,982. Has there been a material change in their circumstances within your recollection?-Yes; a very great change. The boats and material have been very much improved.

16,983. Were the men at one time considerably in debt?-I don't know if they were much in debt, but they did not have the same class of boats, nor so good material, such as nets, and the like of that. Their boats are much better now than they used to be.

16,984. Do the boats there belong to the men themselves?-Yes.

16,985. Do you know whether many of the men in that district are now in debt to the curers or merchants?-A few of them may be but they are not so generally.

16,986. Was there formerly a system there of settling at longer intervals?-Yes. I think that generally they did not make a final settlement with the local curers until the end of the season; but there have been so many strangers going there within the last few years, that it seems to have been adopted as a rule to [Page 437] pay daily, or when the fishermen like to call for the money, which is at least once a week.

16,987. I suppose the railway has made a difference in that respect?-Yes; it has made a great change in the value of the fish.

16,988. Is the cod and haddock fishery prosecuted to great extent at Anstruther and Pittenweem?-It is.

16,989. Is it prosecuted chiefly for the fresh market?-Yes, principally.

16,990. Is it carried on with the same boats which are used in the herring fishing?-No. I think they are generally a larger class of boats-decked boats-that are used for that fishing. A number of the fishermen go in the same boats which they use in the herring fishing, but some of them have a class of boats in which they go out to sea for two or three days, and these are decked and very comfortable.

16,991. Do you buy any of these fish for curing?-Not generally; but Mr. Methuen does at Anstruther and the other stations there. He keeps an establishment at Anstruther.

16,992. Does he cure herrings only, or also cod and haddocks?- He buys cod and ling, and sends them away fresh, I think, and he buys a good number of haddocks and smokes them. Haddocks are what he buys principally there.

16,993. How are these settled for?-I am not quite sure, but I think it is once a week.

16,994. There is no yearly settlement?-No.

16,995. Do you know any reason why a settlement once a week or at delivery should not be made in districts like Shetland or the Lewis, which you know better?-No. I think the fishermen prefer to get their money once a week, and the curers now like it as well too. They find less trouble with that system, and the fishermen are more independent and do not require advances as they did before.

16,996. Do you think that system of frequent payments has enabled the fishermen to do without advances to the same extent as they required them formerly?-I think so.

16,997. Would there be any practical difficulty in settling in that way in remote and thinly inhabited districts, such as Shetland and the Lewis, where the stations may be a long way from towns?- There would be a difficulty, to a certain extent. One great difficulty would be in getting cash daily, but they might perhaps get it weekly. I think, in the western islands, perhaps once a week might be adopted as a very good plan, if it could be managed, and they could arrange to get their money from Stornoway.

16,998. The man might get an order to receive the money due to him for his fish at the principal countinghouse of the merchant?- Yes. The general system adopted with Mr. Methuen's boats, and those of the other curers belonging to Wick, is, that they generally agree so many boats belonging to the Lewis, and so many belonging to Caithness, and they return to the Wick fishing after leaving the Lewis; then at the end of the Wick fishing they are settled with for both fishings.

16,999. Have you been in the habit of supplying boats to fishermen?-When I was at Stornoway for Mr. Methuen, I generally supplied them with nets and bark, and they got boats in some cases too.

17,000. What kind of boats were these?-They got the Caithness boats; but that is not so much the practice now. The fishermen seem to get them from the boat-builders now, and make their own arrangements for them.

17,001. Have you seen any of the Shetland boats?-Yes, I have seen them at Wick. I think they generally have four oars.

17,002. Have you seen any of the six-oared boats?-Yes. I think there are two or three classes of them. They have a small boat, then a four-oared boat, and then the larger six-oared boat.

17,003. But they depend most on the six-oared boats now: have you any knowledge of the cost of such boats?-There are very few of the Shetland boats that come to Wick; but I have seen some of the Orkney boats there, which I believe are very similar, and I think a boat of that kind, with masts, sails, and oars complete, would cost about £50.

17,004. Were these boats half-decked?-There was no deck on them when I saw them. They were all open.

17,005. What was the size of them?-I would suppose about 24 feet keel.

17,006. However, you don't know much about the Shetland boats?-No; it is the Orkney boats that I have seen coming to Wick.

17,007. Do you purchase salt for curing your fish?-It is generally supplied from Liverpool.

17,008. What is the usual price that is paid for salt for curing?-It varies in price. Last year I think it would be about 12s. per ton in Liverpool.

17,009. Have you been able to get salt in Liverpool for curing as low as 7s. per ton?-No. I have never bought it, but I have an idea about what it costs. It is generally from 9s. to 11s.; I never heard of it being under 9s.

17,010. How do you take it up to the north?-By sailing vessels.

17,011. What is the freight?-We have paid 9s., and as low as 7s. 6d.; but about 8s. is the general thing to Burntisland. It is brought from Liverpool round by the north of Scotland and up the Firth.

17,012. Do you think 10s. would be about the freight to Shetland?-I would suppose so; but we generally get the freights cheaper to Burntisland than they would be there, as it is going to a loading port. Perhaps about 12s. would be a fair freight to Lerwick, because the vessel has to come away in ballast again.

17,013. What allowance would you make for wastage, if you were calculating the cost of curing?-About 21/2 per cent. is the usual thing; if there is more waste than that, then we charge the captain.

17,014. Have you ever made any estimate of the cost of curing a ton of cod or ling?-No; but I would suppose that in Shetland it would cost about £1 per ton to split them and cure them and dry them. There is a great deal of work connected with it.

Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CATHERINE BROWN, examined.

17,015. Have you been a knitter of Shetland goods for a long time?-Yes, for about fifteen years.

17,016. Did you live in Lerwick at one time?-Yes.

17,017. Were you employed to knit a shawl for the Princess of Wales?-Yes; a cloth or burnous.

17,018. Have you an appointment as knitter to Her Royal Highness?-Yes.

17,019. I believe some of your shawls obtained high prizes at the London Exhibition of 1870?-Yes.

17,020. Are you now going to begin business in Edinburgh?-I think so.

17,021. Have your knitted for Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I have sold to him. I have always been in the habit of knitting with my own wool and selling my goods.

17,022. Have you never knitted with the merchants' wool at all?- No.

17,023. Have you seen Mr. Sinclair within the last ten days?-Yes.

17,024. Are you aware that he and some other merchants in Shetland desired that you should be examined before this Commission?-I know that he wished me to be examined.

17,025. I have been asked by Mr. Sinclair to put certain questions to you on the subject of your dealings with him. Do you know whether, as a usual thing, the merchants in Lerwick pay higher or lower prices for hosiery articles than you could get from private individuals?-They pay lower prices.

17,026. Is that taking the price in goods?-I never sold for goods, always for money.

17,027. Did you never do that from the very first?-I was in the habit of selling to private individuals then.

17,028. Did you never sell for goods at all?-When I wished goods, I exchanged my articles for them; but I got money whenever I wanted it.

17,029. How did you succeed in obtaining cash for [Page 438] your hosiery whenever you wished?-The merchants always came to me and asked for the goods. I did not go to them.

17,030. But you were not always such a good knitter as you are now. Did you not go through any apprenticeship?-Not with the merchants.

17,031. Was the merchants' money price for the goods lower than the money price which you got from private individuals?-Yes. I always gave it to them a little lower, perhaps 1s. or 2s. or 3s. less on a shawl, than I asked from a private individual.

17,032. Did you sell your shawls for a lower price to the merchants in Lerwick than you sell them for to the merchants in Edinburgh?-No. I sell them at the same price to the merchants in Lerwick as to the merchants in Edinburgh.

17,033. Have you ever sold a shawl to a merchant in Edinburgh?- Yes.

17,034. Have you not got more for it from him than you would have got from a merchant in Lerwick?-That was some years ago.

17,035. Was Mr. White the merchant in Edinburgh to whom you sold?-Yes.

17,036. Do you know whether knitters in Lerwick, who depend entirely on knitting for their living, are able to get money for their work?-I do not know about any person but myself.

17,037. Did you ever hear of lines or goods being sold by knitters which they had got for their hosiery?-No, not lines. I have heard of them selling their goods, but I could not say whether it was true or not. I have not heard of that often.

17,038. When a merchant buys a fine shawl or a neck-tie or a lot of veils from a knitter, do you know whether he sells them in the south for a larger price than he pays?-I don't know anything about that.

17,039. Have you ever bought shawls or veils in Edinburgh?-No.

17,040. Or priced them?-No.

17,041. Are the prices of goods in the Lerwick shops generally higher or lower than the prices you pay here for such goods, for instance, as cottons or petticoats-I am a stranger here, and I have not bought anything yet, except a piece of velvet, and I paid the same price for it here as I would have done in Lerwick.

Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CHARLES FLEMING, examined.

17,042. What are you?-I am a draper to trade, and I am the buyer in that department for Messrs. M'Laren, Son, & Co., High Street, Edinburgh.

17,043. Is that a wholesale as well as a retail house?-Yes.

17,044. How many years' experience have you had in the business?-Eighteen years. I have been two years in my present position as buyer.

17,045. I suppose you are one of the largest buyers in that line in Scotland?-I believe we are, for the retail trade; but we are wholesale as well.

17,046. Do you buy for the wholesale trade, or only for the retail?-I buy for both.

17,047. I show you a piece of half-bleached cotton: what is the usual price of that as an article of retail trade?-It depends upon the width. There are a number of different widths, but the usual widths made are 29, 32, and 36 inches. It is also made 40 inches and wider, but these are not usually sold.

17,048. Can you tell from the sample what the width has been?- No.

17,049. What would be the proper retail price for the 29 inch width?-I should say 21/2d.

17,050. Would that be the fair price in a country district?-I think it would be a very fair price.

17,051. Would it not be legitimate to charge a somewhat higher rate in a remote district of the Highlands?-I think not, for an article such as this. That would be the outside stretch that it would be worth at the present time for 29 inches.

17,052. Is there anything narrower than that?-I am not aware of anything. That is the trade term for them; but I don't know that they exactly measure the width which is named.

17,053. Would you be surprised to be asked 41/2d. a yard for that?-I think it would be very much out of the way.

17,054. What would be a fair price for it if it were 32 inches wide?-About 31/4d. a yard; and about 33/4d. for 36 inches.

17,055. In all these valuations, are you assuming that the article is sold in a country district, and not in a large city establishment where there is a rapid turnover and great competition?-Yes. I think that usually very little difference is made on that class of stuff, wherever it is sold.

17,056. Is it a very common sort of article?-It is the most common thing of the kind that is made. It is generally used for an inter-lining for different parts of ladies' dress, being put between two other materials.

17,057. What would it be used for by working people in the country?-It might be used for lining dress skirts, or such as that.

17,058. I show you another piece of half-bleached cotton: is that also made of different widths?-Yes. The value of that, at 29 inches, would be 4d. a yard; at 32 inches, 51/4d.; and at 36 inches, 61/2d. It is made also in greater widths, but not usually sold, unless for some special purpose.

17,059. Of what greater width is it made?-It is made in 40 inches, and 48 and 54.

17,060. Would the price rise in proportion to the widths in the same ratio as in the three widths you have already mentioned?- Yes.

17,061. But 36 inches is the widest that is commonly sold?-Yes.

17,062. Is that used by fishermen for making oil-cloth?-It may be used for that purpose.

17,063. If used in that way, what width would most likely be selected?-36 inches would be the best width for cutting out. It is the most usual width made in this class of stuff for almost any purpose. Although I am terming it 36 inches, it may measure less, perhaps 341/2 or 35 inches; and the same proportion with the other widths.

17,064. For 36 inches wide, would 8d. a yard be too high a price for that cotton?-I think it would be very dear at 8d. a yard, even at the present price of cotton.

17,065. Was the price in January higher or lower?-It was lower in January than now. There has been an advance of about 5 per cent. on cotton goods since then, and there has been a difference of 10 per cent. since October last. Cotton goods were very steady all last season until then.

17,066. I show you a piece of shirting: what value do you put upon that in the same way?-It is usually made in two widths, 32 and 36 inches. Those, of course, are the same as calicoes; they don't measure exactly what the makers term them, but they are known as these widths. The 32 inches is the width principally used, and this class of stuff is about 63/4d. at the present time. I daresay had it been bought a couple of months ago it would have been 61/2d. In the other width it would be about 1d. more.

17,067. Would 1s. a yard be a high price for that?-It would be a very exorbitant price, in my judgement.

17,068. Would it be so in any part of the kingdom?-It would be so in any part of the world, I should say, either in or out of the kingdom. It would be a very extraordinary price to charge.

17,069. Is there no greater width than 36 inches?-Not in this class of stuff, of this make. This is Glasgow-made stripe, and they don't make them wider than 36. There is a Kirkcaldy stripe too, but it is different class from this altogether.

17,070. Is that stuff used for making shirts for men?-That is what it is principally used for. Country people also use it for what they term short-gowns and children's dresses, and different things of that kind; but its principal use is for working-men's shirts.

[Page 439]

INDEX.

ABERNETHY, Archibald (analysis of his evidence, p. 301), is a shopkeeper at Whiteness in Tingwall, 12,251; deals in eggs, butter, groceries, and soft goods, 12,252, 12,253; generally pays in goods, but gives money often for eggs, 12,254; buys fish green, and cures, 12,257; men prefer to have price of fish fixed at end of season, 12,259.

ADIE, Thomas Mountford (analysis of his evidence, p. 138), fish merchant at Voe (Olnafirth), 5593; as a rule, fishermen are engaged to deliver all their fish, and take the current price at the end of season, 5596; has once or twice made contracts to buy fish at fixed price from men, and found that they were discontented if afterwards the price of fish rose, and he was obliged to pay more than he had agreed, 5598-5601; thinks the price, if fixed at beginning of year, would be lower than they generally get at present, 5604; under it no advances could be made to men, 5608; buying of boats, 5609-5624; 3d. per cwt. more paid at Voe for fish to men having their own boats, 5610-5612; most men have an account at store, 5633; discount for cash payments, 5636; fishing lines, 5640-5646; bad debts are no advantage to merchant, 5655; men are now in great fear lest any change be made, 5657; smuggled fish, 5663; bucht lines, 5664-5666; men not compelled to take goods from store, 5679; fish the merchants' only security, 5685, 5686; price of meal, 5697-5700; curers have a very small profit on fish, 5704; Faroe fishing, 5726; hosiery, 5741; is always paid for in goods, 5742; there is no profit on it, 5743; does not think knitters would take a less price in cash, 5749; beach boys, 5751; tacksman has no profit on rents, 5767.

ADIE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 210), son and partner of T. M. Adie (p. 138), 8640; there is an arrangement that when an indebted fisherman goes to another employer he is bound to pay the debt incurred to a former employer, 8641; cost of curing, 8660. (recalled, p. 213). Gives further evidence as to the cost of curing fish, 8750.

ADVANCES of cash during season, 815, 1177, 5030, 8587, 9390, 9544, 9600, 9868, 10,249, 10,631, 10,940, 11,172, 11,977, 12,589, 13,162, 13,322, 13,882, 14,782, 15,574, 15,911. for boats and boat hires, etc., 3623, 3839, 5206, 5357, 5609, 6507, 6724, 7208, 9092, 9856, 10,139, 10,572, 11,879, 12,295, 12,957, 13,270, 13,396, 14,109, 14,933, 15,053, 15,095, 16,794, 16,890, 16,999.

AITKEN, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 119), fisherman, Eastshore, Dunrossness, 4801; and tenant of house, 4802; is bound by writing to fish for landlord, 4803; thinks freedom in fishing would be an advantage, 4806; could get meal cheaper than at store, 4835; wages fixed by landlord, 4853-4855; must work for landlord because there is no one else to work for, 4855.

ALLOWANCES to indebted men, 12,641, 13,162, 13,179, 13,967.

ANDERSON, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 166), fisherman at Hillyar, 6866; fishes for Mr. Laurence Smith, 6868; previously fished for a number of other dealers, 6869; changed employer frequently, because he got in debt and could not get supplies, 6875, 6876.

ANDERSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 224), fisherman at Burravoe, 9271; formerly tenant and fisherman at Lunna, 9272; was bound to fish for tacksman, 9275; fishes now for Mr. Adie, 9284; deals generally with him, 9286; makes no complaint as to prices, 9299.

ANDERSON, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 316), fisherman and tenant in Skerries, 12,772, 12,773; bound to fish, 12,774; sells farm produce to curer, 12,778; has no wish for a change, 12,781; dealers' prices too high, 12,785.

ANDERSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 158), merchant and fish-curer at Hillswick, 6498; tacksman of estate of Ollaberry, 6499; men engaged for fishing paid current price at end of season, 6503; men having their own boats and being free from debt paid 6d. per cwt. extra for fish, 6507; ling fishing, 6523; does not think long settlements cause debt, 6537; does not think the fixing of a price at the beginning of season would be an advantage to the men, 6543; men under no obligation to deal at store, 6554; men smuggle a good deal, 6564; buys cattle and farm produce, 6583; generally pays for them in cash, 6585; beach boys, 6602; and curers paid at end of season, 6605; kelp, 6628-6640; paid either in cash or goods, 6631; hosiery, 6641; generally paid in goods, 6642, 6643; there is no profit on it, 6645; people generally ask goods, but this may be because they understand it is the custom to pay in kind, 6656; there would be no advantage in a cash system, 6671-6674; home-spun tweed usually paid in cash, 6681-6688; tea often taken by knitters, 6696; never knew goods exchanged for cash, 6697; lines, 6700; generally brought back by original holder, 6701; there is no impediment to the opening of other shops, 6707; is agent for Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, 6711; in the case of men losing a boat, would not stop the compensation money to pay shop account, but if they were indebted for the boat he would stop it, 6717-6722; boat-building, 6724; thinks a great boon to Shetland would be the introduction of a land bill, as at present a tenant improving his farm is liable to be ejected or have his rent raised at any moment, 6749; proprietors are unwilling to give leases, 6751.

ANDERSON, John (recalled, p. 189). There is an agreement amongst merchants, to protect them from attempts on the part of men to escape payment of debts, that they shall not engage the men without seeing that their debts are paid, 7776; dissents from evidence of Rev. Mr. Sutherland (p. 179), 7796; and thinks the people may be favourably compared with their equals in other places for frugality, foresight, and moral virtues, 7797-7800; it is not possible to introduce a more extensive system of winter fishing, 7804.

ANDERSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 168), fisherman at Hillswick, 6977; lives with his father, 6978; fishes for Laurence Smith, 6979; settles yearly, 6980; deals at his shop, 6981; has pass-book, 6994; was a beach boy, 6999; when indebted, considered himself bound to fish for dealer, 7010-7014; but his supplies being stopped, went to another dealer, 7026.

ANDERSON, Mrs. Margery Manson or (analysis of her evidence, p. 32), lives in Lerwick, 1648; knits with her own wool, 1649; previously for dealer, with his wool, 1650; paid in goods, 1652; could not get money, 1656; goods not worth the price put on them, 1658; had pass-book, 1664-1670; sells now for goods and a little money to dealer, 1674; would prefer to be paid in money, 1675; gets lines, 1679.

ANDERSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 67), shopman to Robert Linklater, 3058; refers to evidence of Margaret Tulloch (p. 29) and Mrs. Thomas Anderson (p. 32); work was refused them because of their slowness in executing it, 3059; lines not given, 3070, 3071; system of dealing, 3060-3076; does not sell wool, 3087; there is very often no profit on hosiery, 3088-3097; but on the whole there is a small profit, 3149; goods are charged higher because of the present system, 3176, 3177; Shetland wool is not sold, 3179.

ANDERSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 254), fishes for Spence & Co., Haroldswick, 10,500; runs an account with them, 10,501; formerly paid cash, 10,504; gets the same quality of goods now, but pays more, 10,507; monthly payments might be advantageous in good years, 10,512.

ARCUS, Mrs. Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 33), living in Lerwick, 1729; a dresser of shawls, 1729; sometimes knits, 1731; dresses shawls for dealers and workers, 1738; occasionally disposes of shawls for workers, 1746; generally paid in goods, 1754; thinks country girls do not require money, but knit to [Page 440] clothes, 1754, 1755; can always get money herself, 1759; but does not know if others can, 1761, 1777; and gets lines, 1764; has no pass-book, 1791; in summer sells sometimes to visitors, 1804, 1805; gets money in full, 1806, 1807; and prefers it, 1808-1810; if paid in money, thinks so high a price would not be given, as merchants have a profit on goods, and so can allow more when they pay in kind, 1825; yet knitters prefer this, 1826; thinks the workers should be grateful to the dealers, who have entirely created a trade and found a mart for their goods throughout the country, 1831.

BEACH Boys, hiring of, etc., 4367, 5000, 5070, 5086, 5101, 5241, 5751, 5907, 6602, 6999, 7533, 8792, 10,108, 10,283, 10,345, 12,295, 12,437, 12,808, 13,353, 14,086, 15,102.

BLANCE, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 221), fisherman at Burravoe, also engaged in seal and whale fishing, 9136; tenant of land under Mr. M'Queen, 9137; system of engagements and settlements in whale fishing, 9147-9221; half-pay tickets, 9154.

BLANCE, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 137), fisherman at Midgarth, 5542; tenant under trustees, 5543; under no obligation to fish, 5544; deals at the stores of merchants for whom he fishes, 5547; when men are in debt they seldom get cash, 5552; considers himself under obligation to fish when indebted, 5554; has no pass-book, 5574; smuggling of fish, 5577-5592.

BLANCE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 149), fisherman at Ollaberry, 6008; and tenant, 6009; fishes for landlord, 6011; but is not bound, 6012; has been free for six years, 6013; goes to Faroe fishing; does not know whether if he went to home fishing he would be bound, 6026; believes that men generally are, 6028: deals principally with merchant, 6057; always had advances of money when he wishes, 6076; being indebted to merchant, considers himself bound to fish for him, 6092, 6093; fishing lines and bait, 6103; knitters, 6136; paid generally in goods, 6138-6147; does not know whether money could be got, 6147-6150; ejectment, 6155; never knew of ejectment for refusal to fish, 6160; eggs, 6161-6166; freedom in sale of, 6181, 6182.

BLANCH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 206), fisherman and farmer near Brae, 8510; skipper in Faroe fishing, 8516; for Mr. Adie, 8517; settlement generally yearly, 8518; men generally take their supplies from merchant, 8519; never knew of men bound to fish, 8528; thinks the present system favours the masters, as they can fix the price of fish as they choose, and men do not know what they are earning till the end of the season, 8531; Englishmen fishing for Shetland curers have price fixed at the beginning of season, 8539, 8541; the system of credit causes men to incur debt, 8564; thinks it would be a good plan for a certain part of the price of fish to be paid on delivery, and the rest at settlement according to current price, 8567; at home fishing thinks a man, unless indebted, is not bound to fish for merchant, 8575; in selling Shetland cloth always got cash if asked, 8576. (recalled). Gives evidence as to the cost of curing fish, 8713; men have to supply their own lines and fishing apparatus in Faroe smacks--thinks the owner should, 8715.

BOATS and Boat Hires, purchase of and advances for (<see> Advances, etc.).

BOLT, Mrs. Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), lives in Lerwick, 1940; knits with her own wool and sells to dealer, 1941; has no pass-book, 1942; is paid in goods, 1947; gets money when she wishes, 1951; sometimes gets lines, 1955; can get wool for goods or lines, 1955-1965.

BOLT, Mrs. Wilhelmina (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), corroborates Mrs. Barbara Bolt (p. 38), 1969-1971; got money and goods as she wished from merchants for hosiery, 1972.

BORTHWICK, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 32), lives in Lerwick, and knits, 1608; for dealers, 1610; has no pass-book, 1611, 1612; is paid in goods, 1616; price is fixed by dealer, 1617; seldom gets money, 1620-1623; sometimes has to sell goods to obtain money, 1627; prefers to knit for money, 1630.

BROWN, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 437), has knitted Shetland goods for about fifteen years, 17,015; and has appointment as knitter to H.R.H the Princess of Wales, 17,018; always sold hosiery in Lerwick for money, 17,026; and sold at a price slightly lower, 17,031; has heard of women selling goods to get money, 17,037.

BROWN, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 131), tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and fishes for him, 5284; corroborates evidence of William Goudie (p. 105), 5285; in consequence of a report of him selling some fish to another merchant, 5287; his house was put up to let by Mr. Bruce, 5288; on proving to Mr. Bruce that the report was false he was allowed to remain, 5294; meal dearer at store than at Lerwick, 5300.

BROWN, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 193), has a small shop, 7957; at Brough in North Delting, 7958; deals in groceries, 7959; never is forbidden to do so, 7962; deals for cash, 7964; fishes, and buys small fish from other men, 7964; cures fish, 7968; does not think there is any restriction placed on the sale of any fish by men, 7975; kelp, 7986; meal, 7999; thinks a ready money system would be an advantage to all

BRUCE, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 186), schoolmaster and inspector of poor, 7628; pauperism has neither increased nor diminished in his experience, 7631; gives an account of management of paupers, 7629-7656.

BRUCE, John, jun. (analysis of his evidence, p. 329), son of Mr. Bruce, Sumburgh, 13,292 tacksman of property at Dunrossness. Gives in paper stating that tenants on property managed by him are free to go to sea, to the Greenland or Faroe fishings, and to pursue any land occupation; but remaining at home fishing, are expected to deliver their fish to him, payment at full market value being rendered. This is a condition of holding their farms, and is beneficial to them, as they must fish for some merchant; he gives as good a price as any other, and besides has the most convenient stations for delivery of fish. Keeps store for the convenience of men, but not expected to deal there against their wishes. Prior to 1860 men fished as they pleased, and generally were unable to pay their rents. The people are now in a much better state. Goods at store are of the best quality, and not unreasonably priced, 13,293.

BRUCE, John James (analysis of his evidence, p. 74), shopman to Mr. Sinclair, 3308; there is no profit on hosiery, 3312-3342; lines are generally brought back by original owner, 3345; never knew an instance of lines being sold or transferred, 3350; but has heard that such things are done, 3355; under cash system workers would actually get less value for their work, 3402; but there would be the advantage of having money for provisions, 3409; and it might cause knitters to work more carefully, and then there would be a regular market, 3412. -(recalled, p. 77). Gives evidence as to lines, 3445.

BURGESS, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 126), fisherman and tenant at Hillwill, 5097; corroborates James Flawes (p. 121) and others, 5098; beach boys, 5101; wages not paid until settlement, 5103; are bound to serve, 5105; men are free to deal anywhere, 5114; has no pass-book, 5117.

CATTLE, disposal of, etc., 942, 1295, 4751, 5352, 6583, 7228, 8130, 8849, 8870, 8944, 9127, 9489, 9686, 10,018, 10,071, 12,241, 12,346, 12,727, 12,758, 13,241. -Marking and selling, 5278, 7235, 7600, 8135, 9690.

CHARACTER of Shetland people, 3623, 5981, 7797, 9382, 12,148, 13,807, 14,743, 14,757.

CHRISTIE, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 22), fisherman and tenant at Burra, 1063; corroborates Walter Williamson (p.15) and Peter Smith (p. 20), 1064; to fish and cure for themselves would be advantageous to men, 1074; knitters, 1077; are invariably paid in goods, 1078; wool supplied by dealer, 1084; and price fixed by him, 1091.

CLOTH made by women, sale of, 6681, 8163, 8254, 8309, 8488, 8576.

CLUNAS, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 78), lives at Unst, 3456; knits, 3451; for merchant, 3452, 3453; and sometimes used her own wool, 3455; is paid in goods, 3458; money not given, 3459; sometimes spins wool, and believes she could get cash for the worsted, 3486, 3494.

COD Fishing (home), 12,236, 12,468.

COLVIN, Gavin (analysis of his evidence, p. 28), fisherman in Levenwick, 1382; corroborates John Leask (p. 25), 1392; goods at Mouat's store very inferior, 1394; all produce was required to be delivered up, 1397; can now get money if he requires it, 1405; price of fish should be fixed beforehand, 1409.

CONDITION of people, 3623, 5235, 7470, 9709, 10,544.

COTTON at store, 9815, 9847, 10,511, 13,200, 13,408, 16,656, 17,047.

COUTTS, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 386), a provision merchant in Lerwick for eleven years, 15,261; previously bought in soft goods, 15,263; but gave it up as it caused him a great deal of trouble, 15,264; and [Page 441] he sometimes had stolen goods brought to him, etc., 15,266.

COUTTS, James (recalled, p. 387). Produces book showing his transactions in brokery line, 15,332; paid for these goods in cash, and people spent it frequently afterwards in his shop, 15,334; has taken goods from knitters which they had got for hosiery, 15,336.

COUTTS, Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 284), lives in Scalloway, 11,585; she and her sister support themselves, father, and aunt, by knitting, 11,587; knits with merchant's wool, 11,589; is paid in tea and goods, 11,590; cannot get money, 11,591; except the merest trifle, 11,593-11,596; barters tea for meal and potatoes, 11,601.

COWIE, Dr. Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 369), medical practitioner in Lerwick, 14,692; is a native of Lerwick, 14,693; has always lived there except when south for his education, 14,694; a system of barter is almost universal, 14,696; knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and the community, 14,698; there is an utter disproportion in the food and dress of knitters, who are often clothed in a gaudy, showy manner, while almost starving, 14,699; dress that they wear, also, is unsuited to the climate, 14,701; this is owing chiefly to the system of truck, 14,703; there is no pawnbroker's shop in Shetland, 14,708; some old women who make a livelihood by hawking goods for knitters from house to house, 14,709; believes immorality prevails to a considerable extent in Shetland, but cannot say certainly, 14,711; does not think professional prostitution is greater in Lerwick than other seaport towns, 14,712; but believes that occasional prostitution prevails to a greater extent, 14,713; this may be accounted for by the system of barter, as knitters have insufficient food and plenty of handsome clothes, 14,715; statistics show that illegitimacy is less in Shetland than in many parts of Scotland, but believes that for several reasons the Registrar-General's returns are not to be depended on, 14,717- 14,721; the system has also evil effects on the physical systems of knitters, 14,773; and leads them to be very extravagant in dress, 14,725; it also causes them to use tea to an extent that is injurious to their health, 14,726; oatmeal, fish, and potatoes, the principal diet of a fisherman's family, 14,729; under the system of fishing, men do not know whether they are in debt or not, 14,731; and this causes them to be deficient in independence, and raises a deceitful, time-serving disposition, and cripples enterprise, 14,739; people are intelligent and pretty well-bred, but they want proper ambition, and have no desire of improving their condition, 14,743; this is caused by the system of barter, by the short leases of land, and the want of encouragement to make improvements, 14,744; houses in Shetland are very bad, 14,745; people are sober and steady, 14,757; thinks the system of long credit injurious to all concerned, 14,759.

CURER'S profit, 3623, 4990, 5704, (small) 9698.

CURING, Cost of, 8551, 8660, 8713, 8750, 8999, 9698, 10,109, 10,276, 10,344, 11,291, 11,422, 13,573, 15,240, 15,766, 15,962, 16,474, 17,007.

DALGLEISH, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 295), partner of Nicholson & Co., Scalloway, 12,021; corroborates Mr. Charles Nicholson (p. 293), 12,023.

DALZELL, Mrs. Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 388), lives in Scalloway Road, Lerwick, 15,359; has knitted with her own and merchant's wool, 15,360; mostly with her own, 15,361; is paid in money and goods, 15,362; often entirely in money, 15,363; knitters are generally paid in goods only, 15,364; money only given for very fine articles, 15,865; best Shetland wool is very difficult to procure, 15,397.

DAVIDSON, Donald (analysis of his evidence, p. 435), fish-curer in Burntisland, 16,920; for a long time in Mr. Methuen's employment, 16,921; his stations in Shetland given up two years since, 16,925; Mr. Methuen agreed with Mr. Bruce for the delivery of the fish, 16,934; and not directly with the men, 16,935; thinks a system of cash payments could be introduced and worked in Shetland, 16,965.

DEBTS, Transfer of, from one merchant to another, 7365, 7751, 7776, 8127, 8373, 8641, 9074, 9940,10,034,10,499, 10,977, 13,001, 14,137, 14,558, 16,010, 16,299, 16,566.

DEPOSITS in bank and hoarding, 3735, 4785, 10,709, 13,055, 13,726, 15,090, 15,223, 16,330, 16,513.

EDMONSTONE, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 258), factor on Buness estate, and a farmer, 10,624; formerly a fish-merchant, 10,625; was the writer of letter (Q. 44,511) in Edinburgh evidence, 10,626; retains opinions stated therein, 10,627; thinks cash advances during season should be compulsory, 10,631, fishing and farming must be combined in Shetland, owing to the unproductiveness of the winter fishing, 10,633; small boats best for winter fishery, 10,634; fish-curers arrange payment of rents, 10,640; people are beginning to see the wisdom of making improvements, 10,670; thinks the diet of people much better than that of the same class in England and Scotland, 10,672; meal, fish, potatoes, bread, and biscuits principal articles of diet, 10,679.

EGGS, Disposal of, etc., 949, 1297, 6161, 6483, 6853, 7074, 7448, 7538, 8870, 8878, 8967, 9908, 10,169, 11,435, 11,853, 12,038, 12,048, 12,218, 12,252, 12,295, 12,346, 12,695, 12,836, 12,928, 13,015, 13,043, 14,023.

EUNSON, Mrs. Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 77), lives in Lerwick, 3415; knits for dealer, 3418; paid in goods, and got money when she required, 3421; sometimes sold shawls to travelling merchants for money, 3430; sometimes got advances of money from dealer even when there was not a balance in her favour, 3444.

EUNSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 125), fisherman and tenant at Waterbru, 5056; corroborates James Flawes (p. 121) and George Goudie (p. 124), 5058, 5059; liberty money, 5060. 5061; beach boys, 5070, 5071.

EVICTION, 577,585, 722, 790, 900, 1012, 1327, 2994, 3025, 3625, 3659, 3755, 4274, 4385, 4486, 4510, 4727, 4777, 4935, 4956, 5069, 5288, 5314, 5320, 6155, 8910, 9227, 9238, 9423, 9636, 10,162, 12,323, 12,625, 12,693, 13,433, 14,816, 16,437.

EXTER, Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 102), knitter in Satter, 4093; knits for Mr. Linklater, 4094; with his wool, 4095; no lines or pass-book, 4099; could not get money, 4102; is poorly paid, 4101; in goods, 4102; would prefer money, if even a little less, 4103; knits now for Mr. Sinclair, and gets part payment in cash, 4111; formerly exchanged goods for meal, 4112.

FAIR ISLE, 4729, 4739, 5770, 13,056, 13,233, 13,326, p. 330, f.n.

FAMILY supplied by dealer in men's absence (Faroe fishing), 1172, 117S, 1188, 2955, 11,058.

FARM Produce, Disposal of, etc., 939, 949, 1294, 1300, 4673, 6383, 8870, 9873, 10,079, 10,169, 10,605, 12,778, 13,089, 13,814. -Restrictions on sale of, 5271, 12,689.

FAROE Fishing, Statements as to, 876, 923, 1157, 1172, 1178, 1183, 1214, 2929, 5726, 6900, 7860, 8515, 9371, 10,912, 11,268, 11,718, 12,011, 12,211, 12,262, 12,267, 12,295, 12,407, 13,557, 13,603, 13,625, 14,080, 15,107, 15,211, 15,227, 15,706, 16,310, 16,428, 16,490.

FEAR of landlord and merchant, 572, 9670, 12,334, 13,421, 13,472.

FINES, 1044, 3755, 3623, 3917, 4483, 4534, 4751, 9241, 12,695, 12,698.

FLAUS, Mrs. Helen (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), lives in Lerwick; dresses shawls for knitters, 1973; and knits, 1973; confirms Mrs. Arcus (p. 33), 1974; sells for knitters to merchants, and gets lines, 1985; or sees it marked in a book, 1986; can always get money if she wishes it, but cannot say if it is the custom to give it, 1998; believes that if hosiery were paid in money, a less price would be given, 2004, 2012.

FLAWES, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 121), fisherman and tenant at Rennesta, near Quendale, 4910; bound to fish, 4911; on pain of expulsion, 4914; current price of fish fixed by four leading merchants, 4919; other merchants vary, and sometimes give more, 4923-4931; knows cases of men being threatened for fishing to other merchants, 4935-4947; liberty money, 4948; men not obliged to deal at store, 4971; goods dearer there, 4978; thinks the price given for fish is not sufficiently high, 4988; boys are bound to act as beach boys, 5000, 5001.

FLEMING, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 438), draper and buyer for Messrs. Maclaren, Son, & Co., High Street, Edinburgh, 17,042; has had eighteen years' experience--two as a buyer, 17,044; gives evidence as to value of samples of cotton shown him, 17,047, 17,070.

FLOUR, Price of, etc., 9069, 9899, 11,847, 14,966, 15,043, 16,862.

FORDYCE, Mrs. John Winwick or (analysis of her evidence, p. 407), lives in Chromate Lane, Lerwick, 16,038; knits with her own wool, 16,040; gets goods or money as she requires, 16,065; but the custom is to pay in goods, 16,066.

FRASER, Rev. James (analysis of his evidence, p. 194), a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four years, 8007; is well acquainted with the people, 8008; and the systems of payment and credit purchases practised, 8009; thinks the effect of these on the people is not very good, 8010; the large amount of bad debts in [Page 442] merchant's books cause him to charge higher prices, 8011, 8012; the credit system is an annoyance to the merchant, 8016; and injurious to the independence of the people, 8022; does not think fishing and farming could be separated, 8029; payment of hosiery in cash would be no advantage, as a rule, to the knitters, 8035; goods given in exchange for hosiery dearer, 8040; thinks a system of agricultural improvements would be the best thing for Shetland, as men would then be able to supply their own meal, and be more independent of curer, 8052; a system of leaseholding necessary, 8067; price for fish fixed at the beginning of season would not be an advantage to men, 8071; cannot see any advantage in periodical advances during season, 8074; in letter sent afterwards to Commissioner, insists again strongly on agricultural improvements as the most necessary thing in Shetland, p. 197.

GARRIOCH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 213), shopkeeper to Hay & Co. in Fetlar, 8762; price of meal, 8766; men are not bound to fish, 8781; beach boys, 8792; whisky, 8833; kelp, 8838; paid either in cash or goods, 8845; purchases cattle, 8849; pays in cash, 8850.

GARRIOCK, Lawrence (analysis of his evidence, p. 335), is a fisherman at Scatness, 13,454; lives on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister; fishes for Hay & Co., but is not bound, 13,455; deals sometimes at store, 13,457; and runs an account, 13,461; paid balance in cash at settlement, 13,462; is satisfied with price and quality of the goods, 13,465; has no passbook, 13,470; men are afraid to give evidence before commissioner because of curers, 13,472; they are afraid of being ejected, 13,474; landlord takes one-third of oil of whales captured by men, 13,478; thinks this unfair, 13,479; landlord demands it, under threat of raising their rents, 13,482.

GARRIOCK, Lewis F. U. (analysis of his evidence, p. 302), partner of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick, 12,293; gives in a written statement, 12,295, stating that the firm's general store is Reawick, and they have besides two smaller shops: Messrs. Garriock last season cured the fish from ten smacks at Faroe, etc., and five smaller ones at Orkney and home fishing, to the gross value of £4600; there is no obligation on men to deal at store; in bad seasons merchants lose heavily by bad debts; merchants would greatly prefer a cash system, with payment on delivery, but such a system would lead to fixed wages; men curing their own fish are free in selling. It is the exception, and not the rule, for men to be indebted; never knew liberty money paid, 12,307; tenants are never interfered with in sale of hosiery, cattle, or farm produce, 12,346; nor bound to deal at store, 12,347; Burra men generally go to the Faroe fishing, 12,362; not to avoid the restrictions laid on the ling fishing, 12,365; they are bound by their leases to deliver fish to Messrs. Hay, 12,367; Messrs. Garriock, at one time issued a circular at Foula, stating that they wished to ascertain the views of the people as to whether they wished to cure their own fish, stating at the same time that if they did, Messrs. Garriock's store would be discontinued, 12,380; the men unanimously stated they did not wish such conditions, 12,381; men prefer to bring their fish to the principal merchant, because he can command the largest market, and therefore give the best price, 12,400; young men going to the Faroe fishing require to have their outfit on credit, 12,407; in the Faroe fishing the men and masters are actually joint-adventurers, only the merchant takes all the risk, 12,418, 12,419; in home cod fishing the men are settled with in the same manner as the Faroe fishermen, 12,468, 12,472; the winter fishing could not be much increased, 12,478; long-line fishing from the bank would be impracticable in winter, 12,490; Greenland fishing, 12,506; was formerly a nursery for the merchant service, but now young men do not go, as the Board of Trade regulations prevent them from getting outfit on credit, 12,511, 12,512; large advances are made in bad season to men, 12,547; men usually continue to fish until their debt is paid off, 12,549; the system of fishing on shares is the best, 12,608; believes men would refuse to adopt weekly payments, 12,610.

GARRIOCK, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 385), agent in Lerwick, 15,209; sells fishing materials, 15,210; is engaged only in the Faroe fishing, 15,211; men deal with certain other merchants for goods which be guarantees, 15,212; and the amount of their account is deducted at settlement, 15,214; occasionally receives a commission, 15,215; many men are not in a position to require advances, but all take them, 15,223; in the Faroe trade, merchants often have to give the men a price as high or even higher than they themselves get, 15,227.

GARRIOCK, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 411), lives in Sandsting parish, 16,216; serves in Naval Reserve in Lerwick, 16,217; was bred a seaman, 16,218; has principally gone to Greenland and Davis Straits, 16,219; has shipped from various agents, 16,222; always got his outfit from agent with whom he served, 16,224; and supplies for his family, 16,225; always got cash if he asked for it, 16,229; at settlement agent sometimes attends at the Custom-house to receive payment of his account, and at other times the men go down to his shop, and settle it after they have been paid, 16,239; never knew an agent refuse to give money, 16,243; men may buy their outfits where they please, 16,270; has bought his from a dealer other than the one he engaged with, 16,272; an impression exists that indebted men have the best chance of being engaged--cannot say if it is true, 16,280, 16,281; at the end of one year he had a balance against him--he sailed next year under another merchant, and found that the account had been transferred to the new agent's books, 16,299.

GATHERER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 391), is collector of customs at Lerwick; strongly condemns the truck system, 15,866; before 1867 wages of men from Greenland fishery were seldom paid at the Customhouse, 15,871; and in almost every case the men ran large accounts, 15,872; this system he believes was actually illegal, 15,881; and was only carried on because the agents desired a profit on the men's supplies, 15,885; since 1867 men have received full payment in cash at the Custom-house, 15,892; but there is much delay in payment, 15,893; does not believe this arises so much from the men's reluctance (15,894), as the agent's unwillingness to have a settlement, 15,896; though the regulations are outwardly observed, the agents still continue to have a virtual security for their accounts, and agents admit that their main inducement to accept the agency is the profit to be got on supplies to the men, 15,898; thinks young men could get their outfits without the help of the agents, 15,910; as any merchant would give a seaman credit if he knew the agent did not enjoy a monopoly of giving supplies, 15,914.

GAUNSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 215), fisherman in Fetlar and tenant of land, 8861; does not know if men in Fetlar are at liberty to fish--gets a good price from Messrs. Hay, and never inquired, 8862; generally has a balance in his favour at the end of the season, 8869; always got money or goods as he wanted, 8869; sells farm produce and cattle as he pleases, 8872, 8874; goods at store are good and reasonable, 8887; does not think men are bound to fish, 8894; hosiery, 8896.

GEORGESON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 295), merchant at Bayhall in the parish of Walls, 12,026; for twenty-seven years, 12,027; principally deals with fishermen and farmers for ready money, 12,028; no men are bound to fish for him--he supplies his fishers with goods, and settles yearly, 12,029; does not do much barter, 12,037; eggs looked on as money, 12,038; never pays for hosiery in cash, 12,039; there is no profit, and sometimes a loss on it, 12,041; men commonly cure their own fish, 12,056; and sell them as they choose, 12,057; but are expected to take them to proprietor, 12,058; could not get men to fish for him, because they considered themselves tied to landlord, 12,080; in ling fishing the price was, thirty years since, fixed at the beginning of the season, but the practice died out, 12,090; at that time men were all free, 12,091; thinks the price of green fish should be fixed at the beginning of season, 12,104; it is an understanding amongst men that they shall buy their goods where they sell their fish, 12,112; men curing for themselves are more to be relied on as customers at his shop, and are more persevering, 12,135; people in Shetland are very temperate, 12,148.

GEORGESON, Ross (analysis of his evidence, p. 412), is skipper of a Faroe smack, lives in Scalloway, 16,310; has gone to Faroe fishing for 15 or 16 years, 16,312; lately in the employment of Mr. Leask, 16,311; has always had an account with Mr. Leask when in his smacks, 16,314; gets the balance that is due in cash, 16,321; and advances throughout year, 16,322; would get payment in cash in full if he wished it, 16,328; banks his money with Mr. Leask, 16,330; never knew of men not taking goods from agent, 16,340.

GIFFORD, Francis (analysis of his evidence, p. 391), seaman in Bressay, 15,488; goes to sealing and whaling, 15,489; under various agents, 15,490; is now paid at the Custom-house, 15,491; previously settled with agent at his shop, 15,492; got balance sometimes in cash, 15,500; has his account read [Page 443] over to him now before going to the Custom-house, and on leaving pays it, 15,515, 15,516; thinks agents like to re-engage men who are indebted to them, 15,222.

GIFFORD, Mrs. Margaret Smith or (analysis of her evidence, p. 410), lives in Lerwick, 16,203; knits haps, 16,204; for Mr. Sinclair, 16,205; sold the last for 6s. in goods, 16,209; in buying articles occasionally for cash, has found no difference in prices, 16,214.

GIFFORD, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 197), is factor on the estate of Busta, 8077; the largest in Shetland, 8078; very few tenants have leases, 8083; they are free to fish, 8084; there is no opposition to the opening of shops, 8097; knows of no arrangement by which merchants become bound for the debts of men on hiring them, 8126; but there was one formerly, 8127; sales of cattle, 8130-8134; marking and selling of cattle for debt, 8135; not common, but is practised, 8136; believes short settlements would be beneficial to the character of the people, 8147; but does not think they would be practicable, 8149; the payment of hosiery in goods is a bad system, 8156.

GILBERTSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 230), fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell, 9553; is free to fish, 9555; generally deals with merchant for whom he fishes, 9557; in some cases payment at an earlier time in the season would be an advantage, 9569; never knew fish-curer refuse money for payment of rent, 9572; thinks weekly payment would be an advantage, as they would keep men from incurring debt, and enable them to go to the best market, 9579; goods are dearer at merchant's store, 9583.

GILBERTSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 111), is a fisherman at Dunrossness, 4497; corroborates Wm. Goudie (p. 105), 4502; although a lodger with his brother-in-law, is bound to fish for landlord, 4508; because his brother-in-law would be warned if he did not, 4509; if at liberty he could make a larger profit, 4516, 4517; prices at the store are higher, 4542. -(recalled, p. 117). Was at Fair Isle three weeks previously, 4729; and heard great complaints there of the high prices charged at the store, 4734.

GILBERTSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 333), sailor and post-office keeper at Virkie, near Sumburgh, 13,403; men in neighbourhood are bound to fish for tacksmen, and most of them deal at store, 13,404; they are not compelled, unless by want of cash, 13,405; has purchased goods at store, 13,407; quality variable, prices higher than at other places, 13,408; men are afraid to give evidence before commissioner, 13,421; their principal complaints are that the settlement is made too late in the season, and that they have not liberty, 13,425; men 43 years ago were bound to fish, and the fish were so badly managed that they only got about 3s. 11d. per cwt. for them--men were then freed on payment of 15s. per head of liberty money, 13,430; in 1860 men were again bound, 13,431.

GOODLAD, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 414), is a seaman in Lerwick, 16,389; requires to deal with sealing and whaling agent, as his half-pay notes are not sufficient to maintain his family, and no one but the agent will give him credit, 16,390; has endeavoured to obtain credit from other dealers, 16,394; and has generally been refused, 16,395; and told that he should take his goods from the agent from whom he got his ship, 16,405; men generally deal with agent if they think his goods are cheap and good; but if not, they take advances and buy elsewhere, 16,413; looks over his account with merchant before going to the Custom-house for payment, and settles on coming back, 16,417, 16,418.

GOODLAD, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 24), fisherman in Burra, and tenant, 1179; corroborates previous witnesses, 1181, 1182; goes to Faroe fishing, 1183; his family is supplied by his agent in his absence, 1188; but cannot easily get money, 1191; knitting, 1201; paid in goods, 1202; knitters cannot get money, 1202-1204; the people are so poor that merchants have complete power over them, 1206; Faroe fishing system, 1214-1217.

GOUDIE, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 124), fisherman and tenant at Garth, 5032; corroborates James Flawes (p.121), 5034; meal, 5044; is dearer at store than elsewhere, 5045; tobacco also dearer, 5053.

GOUDIE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 105), fisherman at Toab, 4255; obliged to fish for landlord, 4256; never knew of fines being imposed, 4274; no obligation as to any produce other than fish, 4279, 4280; price is fixed at settlement, 4283; is not bound to deal with merchant, but is compelled by the present system, 4298, 4299; the quality of store articles is good, but they are dear, 4313- 4317; price of meal, 4316-4332; never had a pass-book, 4337; under the present system men have an advantage in bad seasons, 4363; boys are obliged to act as beach boys, 4367-4369; whales driven ashore by men, 4405; complains that a third of the oil is appropriated by the landlord, 4406; thinks the men should have liberty and leases of their lands, 4413, 4414; and that it would benefit men to let them cure for themselves, 4424.

GRAY, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 253), mason at Bailiasta, 10,412; worked formerly in chromate of iron quarries, 10,413; wages paid in cash, 10,419; has heard of men getting lines, 10,424; does not know what for, 10,426-10,428.

GRAY, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 262), is a fisherman to Mr. Sandison, 10,751; at Snarravoe, 10,752; but for his assistance, would have been starved in two bad seasons, 10,753; gets cash when he asks it, but cannot ask much, as he is indebted, 10,763, 10,764.

GREEN, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 145), is a boat-skipper, 5845; fishes at Stenness, 5846; delivers fish to dealer, 5847; corroborates the evidence of Mr. Adie (p. 138), 5850, 5851; does not think a shorter settlement would be an advantage, 5853; deals at merchant's store, 5856; goods not dearer than at other shops, 5862-5864.

GREIG, Clementina (analysis of her evidence, p. 283), lives at Braehead, Scalloway, with her sister, 11,527; has supported herself by knitting for a very long time, 11,529; never got any money for hosiery, except in sales to visitors, 11,531; always uses her own wool, 11,532; merchants pay insufficient prices, 11,533; even in a great emergency could not get money from merchant, 11,535; merchant will only sell worsted for money, 11,545; has offered to take a lower price for hosiery in money, but could not get it, 11,555; women occasionally exchange goods for provisions, 11,559.

GREIG, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 170), is manager for Hay & Co. at North Roe, 7100; fishermen hold their land on the understanding that they fish for dealer, 7111; tenants fishing for other curers not punished, 7119; never knew a man leave employment because of being indebted, 7167; kelp, 7176-7179; purchase of boats, 7208-7211; winter fishing, 7212-7227; cattle, 7228; marking of cattle for debt, 7235-7238; sales of cattle, 7248; are conducted on perfectly fair principles, 7253-7255; increase of paupers, 7272.

GRIERSON, Andrew John (analysis of his evidence, p. 379), is proprietor of the estate of Quendale, 15,048; and fish-curer for eleven years, 15,049; Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson keeps his shop at Quendale for supply of fishermen and neighbours, 15,050; hires no boats--men have their own, 15,053; tenants in Sandsting are perfectly free, so long as they pay their rents, 15,060; men at Quendale hold their ground under obligation to fish, 15,061; they are satisfied, 15,062; thinks that it is beneficial for tenants if the landlord is a good business man, 15,064; rents would be raised if men were not bound to deliver their fish, 15,065; men salting their own fish would turn out a useless and inferior article, and would still depend for supplies and for a market upon the merchant, and it would only encourage a system of dishonesty, 15,068; men having liberty are generally more deeply in debt than others, 15,071; a ready money system would not keep them out of debt, 15,078; if cash payment for fish were enforced by law, men would likely wish to revert to the old system, 15,081; men will not stick to a bargain, 15,082; men are not so poor as represented, and often have deposits in banks, 15,090; has sometimes exacted liberty money, 15,100; expects sons of tenants to serve on beach, 15,102; cannot understand how small dealers can give a price for fish higher than the current one, 15,103; fishermen are very difficult to deal with, 15,106.

HALCROW, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 103), lives in Sandwick, 4166; knits for Mr. R. Linklater with his wool, 4167; is paid in goods, 4168; once asked but never got money, 4169, 4170 she could get goods cheaper at other houses, 4173-4186.

HALCROW, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 178), lives at Hillswick with her mother, 7418; who is a widow, 7419; and. tenant of land, 7420; knits, 7425; is paid generally in goods, 7430; gets a little money and stamps, 7431; would prefer, but never asked, payment in cash, 7436; eggs, 7448; are paid for in cash if asked, 7449; tea, 7452.

HALCROW, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 324), fisherman at Levenwick and tenant under Mr. Bruce,. 13,080; formerly bound to fish for Robert Mouat, 13,082; the articles at his store were bad and overpriced, 13,085; most men were bound to deal with him, 13,088; and to take all their farm produce to him, 13,089; had to deal because they could not get money, 13,090; he gave money for cattle but very seldom otherwise, 13,091 - [Page 444] 13,093; at settlement he would not pay money, 13,102; paid rent to Mouat two years in advance, and when he failed had to pay it again, 13,105.

HALCROW, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 392), seaman, 15,546; goes on sealing and whaling voyages, 15,547; generally gets his outfit from the agent he engages with, 15,549; on one occasion could not get balance and an allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund in cash, 15,552-15,568; corroborates Francis Gifford (p. 391), 15,585; men indebted get a ship more readily, 15,587.

HALCROW, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 115), fisherman and tenant at Dunrossness, 4646; is bound to deliver his fish to landlord, 4647; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105), 4647-4649; knitting--thinks that to some knitters payment in cash would be an advantage, while to others goods are better, 4650; when new tacksman came to Dunrossness, notice was given by a bill in a public place that men were bound to fish for him, and would be removed if they did not, 4559, 4560; goods are somewhat dearer at fish-curer's store, 4662-4668; but there is no obligation to deal there, 4671; and men have freedom in disposing of their farm stock, 4673-4683; short warning is a great hardship, 4688; does not think payment for fish on delivery would be an advantage except to young men, 4692; meal is dearer at store than elsewhere, 4706-4718.

HARCUS, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 288), is a small merchant in Scalloway, 11,782; deals with fishermen, but does not buy fish, 11,783; does not give credit, 11,784; his trade would be improved by the introduction of a cash system, 11,786; his weekly drawings are larger at settlement time, 11,794; does not think weekly or monthly payments would be practicable, 11,797; buys lobsters and oysters, and pays in cash, 11,800-11,803; hosiery is a bad speculation, 11,824; has tried the plan of giving meal for it, and found he had no profit, 11,824; hosiery should be paid in cash, 11,826; settlements in Shetland take a long time, owing to the men's ignorance of arithmetic, 11,833-11,836; when whales are drawn ashore by the men, one-third of the oil is taken by the landlord--thinks this unfair, 11,856-11,860. In letter afterwards sent to commissioner, says (p. 290) that he is in favour of short settlements, even if for no other reason than that they would benefit his trade; but thinks them impracticable at present owing to the distance of the fishing grounds from the curers' headquarters, and time would be lost which the crews could not afford to lose. The ignorance of men in arithmetic would also be a hindrance.

HARPER, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 252), is a fisherman to Spence & Co. at Norwick, 10,384; and tenant, 10,385; two prices are charged at store for cash and credit, 10,393, 10,394; was a skipper under another dealer formerly, and changed his employment because he was made to believe that he was obliged to work for his landlord, 10,402; finds now that he was not bound by his lease, 10,402; but was threatened indirectly at the time, 10,405.

HARPER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 113), is a fisherman at Lingord, 4573; and tenant of land, 4574; is bound to deliver his fish, 4575; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105), Laurence Smith (p. 110), and Henry Gilbertson (p. 111), 4576, 4577; men would like liberty to cure their own fish, 4584; thinks they would make a larger profit, 4588-4603; states that men are obliged to work for landlord three days in summer, three in harvest, and three in spring, in all nine days annually, without receiving either pay or victual, 4605.

HARRISON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 187), is a merchant at Urrafirth, Hillswick, 7657; deals in groceries, 7661; and cotton, 7662; had some difficulty in obtaining leave to open a shop, 7664; does a small business in curing and drying fish, 7673; and has shop to supply men, 7675; fish-merchants commonly take over the debts of men who leave other employers to come to them, 7751.

HARRISON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 415), is a merchant in Lerwick, and partner of Harrison & Son, 16,427; has had long experience in the Faroe fishing business, 16,428; and a little of the ling fishing, 16,429; his firm has no connection with the management of any land or property, 16,430; men who wished to engage with him have been prevented by their landlords or tacksmen, 16,433; men are bound entirely to landlord for both home and Faroe fishings, and young men dare not disobey the landlord, because their parents would be ejected if they did, 16,437; men free of debt and with money are bound equally with indebted men, 16,440; believes that he and his firm have been the most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade, and that this is because all the men they employ are free, 16,445; indebted men are not the best fishermen, 16,448; it is not advantageous for a merchant to have a great number of debtors, 16,449; the principal evil of Shetland is the system of land tenure, by which no man has a lease, 16,461; and which binds men to fish, 16,463; thinks fish should be paid for on delivery, at the market price, 16,467; the letting of beaches is not legal, 16,471; the introduction of a cash system might cause difficulty at first, but the result would be a great increase in the fisheries, and the emancipation of the men, 16,477; Shetland fishermen have a great advantage in possessing pieces of ground which support them for at least six months per year, 16,478; were cash payments introduced, men would have much more facility in getting goods at the lowest possible price, 16,481; men have a fear that the introduction of a cash system would deprive them of the means of support in a bad season, 16,482; and this very probably kept men from coming forward to give evidence, 16,483; thinks that so long as landlords and tacksmen are engaged in the fishery, any system of cash payments will do little good, 16,489; in the Faroe trade believes that the owners would agree to a settlement at the end of each voyage, but that the men would not, 16,493; and that a settlement at the end of the season is an advantage to them, 16,494; men invariably take a part, at least, of their supplies from the curer who employs them, 16,506; they have no alternative unless they have cash, and men even with it generally take their supplies from the merchant, 16,507.

HARRISON, William B. M. (analysis of his evidence, p. 395), is a partner of Harrison & Sons, 15,705; engaged extensively in the Faroe fishing trade, 15,706; terms of agreement in that fishery, 15,707; men mostly deal at shop, 15,720; there are very few who do not have a balance to receive at settlement, 15,721; men who have money prefer to take goods on credit, 15,724; men in home fishing are not allowed credit above a certain sum, 15,732; the introduction of a cash system would be an advantage more to the curers than to men, 15,745; but there would be no difficulty in working it after it was once fairly introduced, 15,749; would pay men weekly in full according to the market, 15,751; men have been asked to agree to such an arrangement, but will not, 15,752; curer would not be able to make any advances in bad seasons, 15,760; does not think a system of partial payment on delivery and a yearly settlement of the remainder of the price would be fair for the curer, 15,762; curers are paid entirely in cash, 15,770; are not given credit 15,771; this plan is not practised by other agents, 15,772.

HAY, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 132), fisherman at Firth, about a mile from Mossbank, 5335; and tenant, 5336; fishes for Mr. Adie in ling fishing, 5337; paid current rate at the end of the season, 5339; settlement at Martinmas, 5341; Mr. Adie's nearest store is 71/2 miles distant, 4344; generally goes there for his goods, not because he is bound to do so, 4345; but simply because it has been his custom, 4346; never refused advances of cash, 5372; would prefer to have a price fixed at the beginning of the season, 5377.

HAY, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 255), formerly a merchant at Haroldswick, is now a farmer, 10,519; cured fish, 10,520; preferred a ready money business, 10,522; found it very difficult to deal so because of the general custom, 10,526; believes if once started it would be a benefit, 10,527; monthly payments would make men more independent, 10,528; thinks the condition of the people much improved lately, 10,544; and men are generally free to fish now, 10,551.

HENDERSON, Isabella (analysis of her evidence, p. 285), lives in Scalloway with her father and sister, 11,624; she and her sister support the family by knitting, 11,626; sells veils to merchants for goods, 11,631; cannot get money, 11,634; has often had to exchange goods for provisions, or sell lines, 11,637.

HENDERSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 136), fisherman at Mossbank, 5502; not bound to fish unless going to the Skerries, 5504; fishes for Mr. Pole, 5505; deals very little at his store, 5507; is not obliged to go there, 5509; goods are rather dearer there, 5513; would like a system of payment on delivery, 5532.

HENDERSON, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 239), is a small proprietor near Haroldswick, 9918; once engaged in fishing, 9920; men generally fish for landlord, 9924; fishermen generally deal with merchant, 9930; but are not compelled, 9931; debts are very often transferred to the books of new employers, 9940; cash payments would benefit some men, not others, 9945; thinks the fishermen would not be much in favour of having a price fixed at the beginning of the season, 9951; does not think they would agree to [Page 445] weekly wages, 9952; a ready money system would be an improvement, 9974.

HENDERSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 315), is a fisherman and farmer in Skerries, 12,732; and bound to fish for Mr. Adie, 12,734; was told so by landlord's agent, 12,736; deals at the landlord's store and settles yearly, 12,739; gets money when he wishes, 12,740; may deal elsewhere if he has money, 12,742; would prefer liberty in fishing, 12,750; goods are dearer at Skerries than Lerwick, 12,756; cattle are generally sold to landlord, 12,758.

HENDERSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 318), is a son of Gavin Henderson, merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness, 12,831; and manages his business, 12,832; deals in drapery, groceries, ironmongery, coal, timber, etc., 12,835; deals a little in hosiery and eggs, 12,836; buys fish, principally in winter, 12,839; he gives men credit for goods, but does not like to do so, as fish is the only security they can give, and they are bound or engaged to fish for others, 12,856-12,859; he generally pays winter fishing in cash on delivery, 12,879; or gives an I.O.U., or puts the amount to their account, 12,881; the price of summer fishing should be fixed at the beginning of the season, or from time to time, 12,885-12,887; but weekly payments should not be made, 12,888; there is not much fish smuggled, 12,908; buys hosiery for cash, 12,913; knitters are willing to take a lower price in cash, 12,915; goods bartered by merchants to knitters are very much overpriced, 12,917; eggs paid in goods or cash as wished, 12,928. -(recalled, p. 332). Explains, with reference to statement that in buying fish he paid for it on delivery, that in some cases accounts are settled annually at the end of the winter or spring fishings, 13,340.

HERRING Fishery, 879, 981, 1002, 1135, 3880, 8154, 8605, 8630, 10,336, 10,563, 14,108, 15,194, 15,740, 16,945.

HOME Fishing, 1208, 5594, 6901, 6940, 10,512, 10,912, 11,909.

HOSIERY, Statements as to the sale of, 71, 221,306, 368, 764, 898, 1077, 1084, 1201, 1366, 1420, 1476, 1562, 1608, 1648, 1698, 1729, 1848, 1902, 1941, 1969, 1973, 2030, 2075, 2120, 2370, 2667, 2770, 2824, 2906, 3059, 3215, 3246, 3310, 3418, 3445, 3451, 3497, 3568, 3612, 3900, 4094, 4140, 4167, 4201, 4650, 5093, 5176, 5741, 5962, 6004, 6136, 6297, 6342, 6444, 6641, 6852, 7291, 7425, 8033, 8156, 8163, 8254, 8309, 8488, 8896, 8971, 9052, 9401, 9547, 9714, 9731, 9793, 10,182, 10,306, 10,449, 11,227, 11,463, 11,529, 11,564, 11,587, 11,626, 11,672, 11,684, 11,757, 11,824, 11,895, 11,997, 12,038, 12,217, 12,295, 12,346, 12,836, 12,913, 12,963, 13,814, 14,036, 14,281, 14,291, 14,697, 15,335, 15,360, 15,785, 15,921, 16,010, 16,040, 16,070, 16,084, 16,094, 16,128, 16,130, 16,136, 16,204, 16,657, 16,658. 16,660, 17,015. -No profit on, 2199, 2523, 2758, 2793, 2842, 2921, 3088, 3312, 3584, 3900, 5743, 6645, 7314, 9402, 11,824, 12,041, 12,463, 12,923,16,658. -Payment of, in goods, and complaints as to, 81, 160, 229, 238, 352, 355, 377, 764, 1078, 1174, 1202, 1370, 1439, 1480, 1522, 1586, 1616, 1652, 1704, 1754, 1855, 1947, 2127, 2671, 2771, 2827, 3458, 3501, 3575, 4102, 4142, 4168, 4206, 5093, 5193, 5742, 6138, 6346, 6448, 6642, 6854, 7294, 7430, 8156, 8314, 9549, 9746, 9797, 10,200, 10,308, 11,227, 11,464, 11,531, 11,590, 11,631, 11,674, 11,898, 12,038, 14,039, 15,364, 15,786, 16,066, 16,097, 16,657, 16,660. -Money obtained for, 8, 312, 316, 1566, 1674, 1708, 1759, 1856, 1906, 1951, 1972, 1998, 2040, 2079, 2373, 3421, 4111, 3593, 11,688, 12,913, 15,363, 16,065, 16,080, 17,026. -Payment in cash preferred, 29, 1581, 1630, 1675, 1809, 1924, 3511, 4103, 4173, 4210, 6006, 7437, 11,826, 16,103. -Price fixed by merchant, 9, 421, 1091, 1440, 1617.

HOUSTON, John S. (analysis of his evidence, p. 233), is parochial schoolmaster at North Yell, 9653; fishermen are suspicious that merchants do not give them a sufficiently high price, 9670; does not think justifiably, 9673; does not see that men would be benefited by any alterations in present system of payment for fish, 9676; settlement should be earlier, 9679, 9680; but thinks fishermen would be dissatisfied, 9682; marking and sale of cattle for debt is still practised, 9690; fish-curer have very little profit, 9698; the condition of Shetland is much improved, 9709; the present system of hosiery dealings is bad, 9714; high price is charged for goods, 9715.

HUGHSON, Hugh (analysis of his evidence, p. 231), is a merchant at Gossaburgh, 9585; cures a few fish, 9586; buys for ready money, 9587; thinks a ready money system would be an advantage, 9592; long credit is a great evil, 9596; but a cash system might be bad for poor men, 9599; advances are necessary, 9600.

HUGHSON, Mrs. Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 155), wife of fisherman and tenant of land in Hillswick, 6338; her husband is also a labourer, 6340; hosiery is always paid in goods, 6346; never asked cash, 6347; kelp, 6353; paid in goods, 6371.

HUMPHRAY, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 316), is a fisherman in Skerries, 12,797; lives with his father, who is a tenant, 12,798; fishes for Mr. Adie, 12,799; men are obliged to fish for him, 12,800; there is a merchant in Skerries who would give a higher price for fish, but men dare not sell them to him, 12,800; beach boys are expected to take out their fees in goods, 12,813; interest at five per cent. is charged on debts, 12,821; goods at store are overpriced, 12,826.

HUTCHISON, Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 31), lives in Lerwick, 1561; knits, 1562; with her own wool, 1563; sends her articles to a dealer in Edinburgh, 1564; and is paid in cash, 1566; acts as his agent (1565), employing women to knit, supplying wool, and paying in ready money, 1569-1575; women prefer this system, 1581; sometimes sells shawls at a shop, 1586; and gets a line or I.O.U., 1589; often buys these from knitters to accommodate them, 1592, 1593.

HUTCHISON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 313), is a fisherman and tenant in Skerries, 12,616; under Mr. Bruce, 12,617; pays rent to Mr. Adie, and fishes for him, 12,618-12,620; is bound to do so, 12,621; under penalty of eviction, 12,625; never knew of a man having offended, 12,626; men are obliged to deal at curer's store, because of their want of money, 12,636; are put on an allowance if they have exceeded their credit, 12,641-12,643; the price of goods at the store is much higher than elsewhere, 12,658; is obliged to sell farm produce at the merchant's store, 12,689; men fined for going to Greenland fishing, 12,698; fathers are ejected for their sons' misdemeanours, 12,706; this, however, refers rather to a former state of matters, as there are no fines imposed now, and farm produce can be sold to any one at discretion, 12,713, 12,726. -(recalled, p. 316). Got £17, 19s. by summer fishing last year, 12,767; that sum is about as much as any other man would get, 12,768.

IMMORALITY and prostitution fostered by the system of paying for hosiery with goods, 14,711.

INDEBTEDNESS, Connection with long settlements, 5234, 5653, 5981, 6537, 7475, 7937, 8564, 10,538. -General statements as to, 5998, 6512, 6875, 7174, 7354, 7475, 8017, 10,925, 10,957, 11,076, 12,306, 12,821, 13,808, 14,172, 14,302. -Impossible to keep men clear in a bad year, 3623, 3793, 6274. -the great trouble of merchants, 3623, 5148, 8016, 12,295.

INDEBTED Men bound to fish for curer, 3852, 5554, 5829, 6092, 7010, 7054, 8695. -Allowances to. <See> Allowances, etc. -Generally change employer, 6822, 6875, 7354, 10,957, 16,566. -Merchants prefer to re-engage, 15,522, 15,587, 15,629, 16,280.

INKSTER, Mrs. Ann Leask or (analysis of her evidence, p. 286), lives in Scalloway, 11,671; knits for Mr. Sinclair, 11,672; is paid in money by strangers, 11,673; but never by dealers--never asked for cash, 11,674·

INKSTER, Daniel (analysis of his evidence, p. 373), is a seaman, living in Lerwick for two years past, previously in the North Isles under Mr. Walker, 14,814; has been at sealing, and whaling, and the ling fishing for a number of years, 14,815; was ejected by Mr. Walker, 14,816; because he could not pay his rent, although he took his crops and sold them, and put him in danger of starving- this is commonly done, 14,820; settlement of whaling voyages made in full, 14,839; men are not obliged, or even told, to go and settle their shop accounts, 14,841; goods are as cheap at agent's. store as elsewhere, 14,860; has had allowance from Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, and got it in cash from agent, 14,863-14,865.

INTEREST charged on debts, 12,821.

IRVINE, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 335), is a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate, 13,485; hands in a document, signed by twenty-eight men on that property, stating they are honourably dealt with by Mr. A. J. Grierson, their present landlord, and desire to continue to fish for him, 13,486; has fished for thirteen years to Mr. Grierson, 13,487; and has always been paid the currency, 13,489; could not have got a higher price, 13,490; wrote the document handed in himself, on previous night, 13,493; of his own accord, 13,494; men were quite willing to sign it, and more would have signed it if they had been asked, [Page 446] 13,499; deals at store, 13,507; is paid in cash at settlement, 13,508; is satisfied with the price and quality of store goods, 13,519.

IRVINE, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 324), is shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun., 13,127; men on Sumburgh estate are understood to be bound to fish for landlord, but some do not, 13,130; tenants are reproved, but, he thinks, never ejected for selling fish to another merchant, 13,141; settlements are made yearly, 13,159; balance is always paid in cash, 13,161; men indebted, or who have been indebted, are only allowed to take a certain quantity of meal weekly from store, 13,179-13,181; price of cotton, 13,200; tobacco, 13,204; store is only kept for the accommodation of fishermen, 13,208; there is no profit on it, 13,209; men's rents are lower, because they are expected to fish, 13,253, 13,254.

IRVINE, Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 3), supports herself by knitting and working in a fish-curing establishment, 71, 72; gets money when she wishes from one dealer, but cannot from any other, 81-90; is paid in money at fish-curing establishment--deals at shop kept by fish-curer, but is not obliged, 120-148.

IRVINE, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 390), broker and general dealer in Lerwick, 15,469; deals also in provisions to a small extent, 15,470; deals mostly with men, buys and sells clothes, 15,472, 15,476; seldom deals with knitters, 15,479.

IRVINE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 83), partner of Hay & Co., merchants in Lerwick, 3619; Hay & Co. have curing stations in several parts of the islands, and manage four estates, two as factors and two as lessees, 3623; the tenants on one of the first are free to fish where they choose, and dispose of all their produce as they please, <ib>.; on the other they are also free (excepting the island of Whalsay and Whalsay Skerries), and to dispose of their produce as they please, <ib>.; balances paid in cash, and people are well-to-do and not in debt; Shetland fishermen not ignorant and uneducated; many have sailed to all parts of the world, and now that communication is so much more frequent and easy with the Mainland, they are much better informed, and goods have very much increased in value; fishermen are charged for goods the same price as the public pay in ready money; carpenters and tradesmen employed by Hay & Co. are paid in cash weekly: at the Burra Islands have two curing stations; fishermen are paid regular prices, and the tenants have complete liberty in the sale of their produce; there is no shop on the island, and men get supplies from our stores at Lerwick and Scalloway; in bad seasons credit is given to the men, on one occasion the island being indebted to the amount of £1000: in Faroe fishing, crews are engaged on shares; fish salted on board, and landed at curing stations wet, <ib>.; fishings of all kinds succeed best when men are paid by shares; when paid monthly wages they have no inducement to work, and the season being short, the utmost activity is necessary, <ib>.; Shetland fishermen are, on the whole, better off than many of the same class in other parts of the kingdom, <ib>.; the profit of curers on fish is very small; bad debts are a great drawback; a ready money system would be scarcely possible to carry out; it would, entail an additional expense on merchants, which, with their small profits, they could ill afford; small traders would be driven out of the market, and the fishermen would eventually suffer, <ib>.; the statements made before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh were very absurd, especially one to the effect that a merchant would not thrive unless he accumulated a great quantity of bad debts; thinks the fishing trade as it is cannot be altered for the better, and that any Act of Parliament interfering with it will only have the effect of destroying it, 3623; dealing at store is optional, 3640; there has never been any application made for permission to open another shop in Whalsay, 3642, 3648; does not know if such an application would be granted, 3649; does not think fishermen employed by him ever smuggle away fish, 3655; system of book-keeping, 3668-3673; settlements are generally over by the end of the year, 3688; markets for fish, 3698, 3699; prices paid by curers are generally the same, 3708-3710; large deposits are made in bank by men, 3735, 3736; written obligation given by Burra men eight years ago, but never acted on, 3750-3754; it is only in the home fishing that men are bound to deliver their fish, 3764; payment of monthly wages has been agreed to and afterwards repudiated by men, 3833; purchase of boats, 3839-3847; to permit debts is a bad system, 3877; herring fishery, 3880; weekly settlements impossible, 3896; hosiery trade yields, no profit, 3900; does not think a much higher price is charged for goods by hosiery merchants, 3909; men curing their own fish, 3943; would not do it so well, and so would get a smaller price, 3746; Mouat, 3948; oyster fishing, 3970, 3981; shops not permitted in Burra, because of the sale of tea and excisable goods, 3971, 3972; Greenland whale fishery, 3991; monthly notes, 4016-4078; Greenland fishers seldom indebted, 4054.

JAMIESON, Andrew B. (analysis of his evidence, p. 353), clerk to Mr. Leask for nineteen years, 14,161; principally concerned in settlements with seamen employed in the Greenland whale fishery, 14,163; men at settlement, before the system of payment at the Customhouse, paid the balance due them, and besides got cash during the currency of their account if they wanted, 14,166; men are seldom indebted to the full amount of their wages, 14,172; and those who are, are young hands, 14,173; now the whole money is paid to the men, and sometimes they return at once to the clerk the amount of their accounts, 14,209; or they come down to the shop immediately after settlement, 14,212; men have never failed to pay their accounts, 14,221; except in one single instance, 14,222; no compulsion is exercised--the men go of their own accord, 14,249.

JAMIESON, Andrew B. (recalled, p. 357). States with regard to the accountant of the Board of Trade's report, that he considers it unjust to the agents in the Greenland trade--concurs generally in the statements of Mr. William Robertson, (p. 265), 14,293; men are not generally indebted to the amount of the money due them, 14,302; excepting in bad voyages, when young hands are generally in debt, 14,303; families of men commonly have a weekly allowance, 14,311; men not obliged to take their outfits from the store, 14,316; knows no case of sums allowed by the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society being retained for payment of a man's account, 14,349; it would only be done with the man's concurrence, 14,370.

JAMIESON, Arthur Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 193), Was employed by commissioner to purchase articles at store of Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 7946; got and delivered certain articles to clerk, 7947.

JAMIESON, Geo. (analysis of his evidence, p. 389), farmer and fisherman at North Roe, on Busta estate, 15,400; formerly was under Messrs. Hay--was suspended from fishing for four years, because he refused to go in a boat with some old men, 15,402; other fish-curers were prevented by them from hiring him, 15,403; keeps two paupers--has for one £8, and for the other £3, 10s. per annum--money is paid through Mr. Greig, who refuses payment of more than a trifle in money, 15,406; is told that he must take a part in truck, 15,442; is refused expenses for attending as witness before commissioner, 15,468.

JAMIESON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 350), lives in Quarff, 14,035; knits and dresses, 14,036; purchases wool for herself, 14,037; cannot get payment in cash--has been refused the sum of one halfpenny, 14,039; gets wool in exchange for tea, or clothes, or hosiery, 14,053; merchants often have no money in their shops, 14,042.

JAMIESON, Ogilvy (analysis of his evidence, p. 332), shopkeeper to Mr. Grierson at Quendale, 13,348; overseer, 13,349; and bookkeeper, 13,350; beach boys paid by fees, 13,353; a condition of holding is that the tenants shall supply boys when they have them suitable, 13,361; men buying boats get advances from dealer, 13,399.

JOHNSTONE, Mrs. Agnes Malcolmson or (analysis of her evidence, p. 104), lives in Lerwick, 4200; knits and sells to merchant, 4201, 4202; is paid in goods, 4205; never got money, excepting on one occasion sixpence, 4206; would prefer money, 4210; would take a lower price in cash, 4211; as she could buy goods cheaper at other shop, 4215; and for other reasons, 4218, 4225; never had to exchange goods for money, but knows people who have, 4226, 4228.

JOHNSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 374), is a tenant and ling fisherman at Colafirth, near Ollaberry, 14,884; bound to sell fish to factor, 14,890; thinks it would be an advantage to cure his own fish, 14,893; merchants give a larger price for fish to free men than bound men get, 14,894; prices at the store are higher than they should be, 14,923, 14,928; would like liberty to sell his fish to the highest bidder, 14,939; short settlements would be no advantage unless men had freedom in fishing, 14,946.

JOHNSTON, Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 7), knits for dealer, 369; has no pass-book, 371; is paid in goods, cannot get money, 377-379; never got a line, 411; but never asked, 412; merchant always fixes price of goods, 421, 422; thinks them sometimes [Page 447] too low, 423-425; cannot get wool for work done, 449.

JOHNSTON, Charlotte (analysis of her evidence, p. 397), lives at Colafirth, near Ollaberry, 15,780; was seventeen years in Lerwick, and kept lodgers and boarders, 15,781; now dresses hosiery, and knits for Mr. Morgan Laurenson, 15,783; is always paid in goods, 15,786; runs an account, and cannot get it settled at short intervals, 15,790; different prices are charged by merchant for cash and goods, 15,826; hands in statement from man who built a house for her in 1863, stating that he was obliged to take payment from her in goods, as witness could not get payment from Mr. Laurenson in cash, 15,844; she had to give him goods for less than she got for them, 15,845.

JOHNSTON, Mrs. Christian (analysis of her evidence, p. 99), lives in Muckle Roe, and is wife of former fisherman, 8162; knits and weaves grey cloth, 8163; gets wool from merchant, spins it, gives it to 'wabster' to be woven, and sells to merchant, the price of wool being deducted, 8166; gets money to pay 'wabster,' 8179; some dealers pay for it in money and some do not, 8189.

JOHNSTON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 222), is tenant of Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe, and fishes for Mr. Adie, 9222; formerly tenant on Lunna estate---left because men were handed over to a tacksman, with whom he had a dispute, and was bound to fish for him, 9224; threatened to be ejected for not fishing, 9227; fined for selling fish to another dealer, 9241.

JOHNSTON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 300), is a merchant at Bridge of Walls, Sandsting, 12,219; business is the same as that of Mr. Georgeson, with the exception that he has a spirit and grocery licence, 12,226; spirits are always sold for cash, 12,228; has accounts with a number of fishermen, 12,230; buys no fish, 12,236; has no security except the personal credit of the men, 12,240; thinks men have complete liberty in fishing, 12,247.

JOHNSTON, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 191), is a shopkeeper at Tofts, near Mossbank, 7843; deals in tea, tobacco, and sugar, and buys fish, 7844; cures it himself, 7845; pays in cash, 7851; formerly at Faroe fishing, 7860; men were of opinion that they were not always allowed a fair price, 7869; meal, 7897; thinks long payments and credit cause improvidence, 7931.

JOHNSTON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 248), registrar of Baltasound, lives at Balliasta, 10,206; formerly a fisherman, 10,207; men entirely free to fish then, 10,208; has a farm now, 10,216; deals at any shop, and pays ready money, 10,217.

JOHNSTONE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 62), merchant in Lerwick, 2822; pays knitters generally in goods, but sometimes gives a little money, 2827; there is often no profit, and sometimes a loss, on hosiery, 2842-2860; would prefer cash payments, 2863; price of goods would be reduced, 2866; does not give lines, 2875; lines used as a currency, 2880; never heard of goods being taken from shop and sold to obtain cash, 2896; will sell any yarn, except Shetland yarn, for either cash or goods, 2897; merchants do not sell it, 2899, 2990.

KELP, 5262, 6325, 6353, 6463, 6628, 6851, 7176, 7986, 8838, 8973, 9349, 10,088, 13,293, 13,814, 14,143.

KNITTERS, Getting of worsted by, 2897, 11,579. Selling or bartering of goods or lines by, 236, 986, 993, 1487, 1528, 1592, 1627, 1879, 2190, 2587, 2896, 3516, 3599, 4112, 4147, 4226, 6697, 11,475, 11,559, 11,578, 11,601, 11,637, 11,698, 11,759, 11,998, 12,037, 14,053, 15,336, 15,845, 16,657. Whether much in debt, 2350, 2378. Amount of tea sold to, 2437, 3205, 6696,11,578, 11,764.

LAURENSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 41), is a dealer in hosiery in Lerwick, 2120; and partner in the oldest firm of merchants there, 2121; buys knitted goods, and gives wool out to be knitted, but principally the former, 2126; pays in goods, 2127-2130; the practice of barter is of long continuance in Shetland, 2132; and that of part payment in cash very recent, 2133-2136; never refuses to give cash, 2142; advances are often made, 2150; sometimes pays the whole value of hosiery in cash, 2168; two prices, cash and goods, 2171-2173; cash system would prevent dealers from taking knitted work so readily as at present, as they would then buy only what they actually required, 2177; but yet thinks the cash system would ultimately be advantageous to all, 2179, 2204, 2248; as it would be simpler, 2180; as a general rule, believes women cannot get cash, 2184; merchants have no profit on hosiery, but only on the drapery goods sold to the workers, 2199; and often sell particular articles of hosiery at a loss, 2203; system of pass-books, 2213-2241; does not give lines, 2235; wool supply, 2288; always gives yarn for goods, 2291, 2292; but believes some merchants do not, 2293; because they have little or no profit on it, 2297-2312; yarn only kept by dealers for the use of their own knitters, 2303; merchants have no hold over knitters, 2310; regular tariff of prices cannot be made, owing to the differences of workmanship and pattern, 2327; knitters are seldom much in debt, 2359, 2851.

LAURENSON, Arthur (recalled, p. 406). States, with reference to the evidence of Mr. Walker (p. 402), that he always deals with first-class houses, 16,029.

LAURENSON, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 414) seaman at Mews, Dunrossness, and serves in the Naval Reserve, 16,380; has mostly gone south, 16,382; was two years at the ling fishing, 16,384; dealt with merchant curer only for fishing material, 16,385; had no advances, 16,386; but thinks he would have got them if he had asked, 16,387.

LAURENSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 237), is a fisherman at Burrafirth, 9816; and tenant, 9817; not bound to fish, 9819; has no pass-book, 9827; winter fish is paid on delivery in cash and goods, 9887, 9890; thinks meal and flour at store sometimes not very good, 9899.

LAURENSON, Morgan (analysis of his evidence, p. 174), is a merchant at Lochend, 7274; deals in drapery and provisions, 7275; employs a few fishermen, 7276; deals in hosiery and pays in goods, 7291; is seldom asked to give cash, 7295; gives lines rarely, 7299, 7300; never refused to give small sums in cash to a regular knitter, 7304; occasionally buys special articles for cash, 7305; giving a lower price, women unwilling to take cash, 7306; there is no profit on hosiery, 7314; wool is very scarce, 7317; smuggling of fish is very slightly carried on, 7336; men much indebted to merchant often change their employer, 7354; it is not the interest of the merchant to let debt be incurred, 7885.

LAURENSON, Simon (analysis of his evidence, p. 10). Corroborates Andrew Tulloch (p. 9), 542, 543; wishes freedom in fishing, 544; does not know exactly what landlord's system is, but knows the tenants under him are not satisfied, 547.

LAURENSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 393), seaman in Bressay, has been at sealing and whaling for thirty-six years, latterly paid at Custom-house, 15,600; previously he could get no clear account the state of his account, 15,601; corroborates Francis Gifford (p. 391); knows that indebted men get a ship more easily than others, 15,629.

LEASES, 621, 800, 919, 4258, 6749, 8033, 10,156, 12,252, 14,816, 15,124. -desirable, 4413, 6749, 8067, 16,461. -Men cannot get, 764.

LEASK, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 25) fisherman at Channerwick, 1221; and yearly tenant, 1223, 1224; was bound for the home fishing, but not for others, 1250; the price of fish was fixed by the merchant (Robert Mouat), 1258; and paid in goods, 1276-1287; could not get money from him, 1294; sometimes sold goods got at store to obtain money, 1290; produce of farms had to be sold to tacksman, 1295; 1300; is now under a new merchant, and is not so badly used, 1353, 1354; previously the people were subjected to great tyranny, 1327-1352; knitting paid in goods, 1366; cannot get money, 1371.

LEASK, Joseph (analysis of his evidence p. 345, is one of the largest employers in the Faroe trade and fish-curers in Shetland, 13,822; corroborates Mr William Robertson (pp. 265, 338), 13,823; small fish-curers can only exceptionally get higher prices, 12,827.

LEISK, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 366), is a partner of Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick, 14,589; previously employed by Mr George Reid Tait, now retired, 14,590; agrees generally with Mr. Tait (p. 363) as to the way in which seamen are discharged and their wages paid, 14,593; paid in cash, without any deductions even of allotments, 14,595; allotments chiefly paid in cash, 14,605; men generally pay their accounts on receiving their wages--only remembers one case of defalcation, 14,628; only young hands are indebted to the full amount of their pay, 14,634; men are free to go to any shop they please for goods, 14,671.

LESLIE, Adam, junior (analysis of his evidence, p. 121), fisherman at Toab, 4877; corroborates previous witnesses as to the holding of land and fish, 4879; has no pass-book, 4881; always gets money if he wishes, 4885; thinks goods dearer at store, 4887.

LESLIE, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 114), is a [Page 448] in the fisherman at Dunrossness, 4610; and lives with his father, who is a tenant of land, 4611; is bound to fish, 4612; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105) and others, 4613; prices are much higher at store, 4614; is at liberty to deal anywhere, 4627.

LESLIE, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 126), is a fisherman and tenant at Gord, 5122; bound to fish for sixty years past, 5127; obligation to fish has always been part of the condition of holding land, 5133.

LESLIE, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 15), is a fisherman at Lerwick, 739; corroborates Laurence Mail (p. 11), 742.

LESLIE, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 125), fisherman, and lives with his father, who is a tenant at Hillwill, 5072; is bound to fish, 5077; beach boys, 5086; knitting paid in goods--tweeds refused in exchange for hosiery, 5093.

LEWIS, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 432), is a grocer and wine merchant in Canongate, Edinburgh, for nearly forty years, 16,816; has examined samples sent to him, 16,818; and gives in a report of their value, 16,819; thinks all the articles overcharged, 16,884.

LIBERTY Money, 625, 764, 786, 1012, 1130, 1211, 4483, 4510, 4948, 5060, 8909, 12,306, 13,372, 13,430, 13,552, 15,100.

LINES given to knitters, 248, 257, 329, 411, 1464, 1589, 1679, 1764, 1875, 1889, 1955, 1985, 2190, 2502, 2581, 2694, 2785, 2875, 3070, 3250, 3343, 3445, 3573, 3617, 4099, 6700, 7299, 9657, 9666, 9769, 9787, 10,452, 11,497, 11,637, 11,623, 12,881, 14,047, 15,812.

LINES to day labourers, 10,424, 10,735.

LING Fishery and price of ling, statements as to, 459, 744, 879, 2502, 3623, 6523, 9138, 9238, 9308, 9611, 11,347, 11,393, 11,909, 11,957, 12,089, 12,967, 13,645, 13,648, 13,813, 13,887, 14,885, 15,730, 16,384, 16,429, 16,466.

LINKLATER, Hugh (analysis of his evidence, p. 64), merchant in Lerwick, 2905; buys knitted goods, 2906; sells drapery, 2909; corroborates Mr. Laurenson generally, 2913; deals very little in hosiery, 2914; generally sells drapery for cash, 2918.

LINKLATER, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 58), merchant in Lerwick, 2666; deals in hosiery, and keeps a stock of drapery and tea, 2667; conducts his business in a somewhat similar manner to Mr. Robert Sinclair (p. 49), 2669; gives wool to be knitted, and buys from knitters, 2670; pays principally in goods, 2671, 2674; money only given exceptionally, 2675; most knitters have pass-books, 2676; never refuses money, 2684-2692; gives no lines, 2694; money is seldom asked for, 2716; two prices for cash and goods, 2726; gets a small profit on hosiery, 2728, 2730; it is difficult to procure Shetland wool, 2752; does not sell it, 2753; there is often no profit, and occasionally loss, on hosiery, 2758, 2760.

LONG Settlements, 501, 807, 4782, 5981, 9921, 10,702, 11,891. -Men contented with, 5853. -Men discontented with; 693, 1409, 9596.

M'LACHLAN, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 334), is principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse, 13,436; obtains supplies from Granton and Aberdeen, 13,437; has opened an account with local dealer (Mr. Henderson), and finds goods reasonable in price and good in quality, 13,442; has heard, but does not know, that goods at Hay & Co.'s store are expensive, 13,449.

MAIL, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 11), is a fisherman, 548; and tenant of land, 549; complains that he is bound to deliver all his fish to the landlord, Green, 559; is therefore obliged to deal at landlord's store, 568; where goods are dearer, 568, and 598, 612; fishermen are afraid to complain lest warned to leave, 572; and are warned if they sell fish to any other dealer, 577-585; not obliged to deal at store, but really compelled to do so by present system, 586; goods are not inferior at store, 613; leases, 621; liberty money, 625; whales, 651; when driven on shore, one-third of the oil taken by landlord, 657; and the rest of the price paid through the proprietor, 655; believes that freedom in fishing would be a much better system, 659; had a pass-book, but had to discontinue it, as the storekeeper objected to keep it, 690; complains that men do not know what they are earning or what goods they have till the end of the season, and even then cannot get detailed accounts, 693; states that he expects to be warned because of coming to give evidence, 722; merchants in bad seasons give credit to men, 731.

MAINLAND, Hans (analysis of his evidence, p. 120), fisherman, 4857; never dealt at store, 4859; because he heard that goods were dearer, 4860; complains that in the system of ground letting no compensation can be got for improvements, 4865; fishing alone is not sufficient to support men, 4872.

MALCOLMSON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 408), lives with her mother in Lerwick, 16,093; knits and sews--mother knits, 16,094; knits fine veils and shawls, 16,096; paid always in goods, 16,097.; never asked for money, 16,098; gets money for sewing, 16,099; buys her provisions with this money, and money obtained by letting lodgings, 16,101, 16,102; would prefer to get money for hosiery, 16,103. -(recalled, p. 409). Produces black veil bought from Mr. Linklater which cost 1s. 4.1/2d., 16,136. )

MALCOLMSON, Malcolm (analysis of his evidence, p. 66), fisherman at Channerwick, 2978; and his father is a tenant under fish-curer, 2979; tenants under former tacksman (Robert Mouat) fished for him, supposing they were bound, 2983; there was no obligation, 2984; were forbidden to sell their fish to others, 2992; and were threatened with ejectment if they did, 2994; one man was ejected, 2994; and notice of ejectment was served on witness's father because witness had sold fish to another merchant, 2997; but being ill, was afterwards permitted to remain, 3003; men were obliged to take goods from store, 3004; as they had no money, 3005; could not get any, 3006, 3007; goods were very bad, 3009.

MALCOLMSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 118), fisherman and tenant at Northtown, 4771; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105) and Laurence Smith (p. 110), 4772, 4773; knows a case of ejectment for selling fish to other dealers, 4777; men would make more if they were allowed to cure for themselves, 4780; long settlements are sometimes a disadvantage, 4782; not many fishermen have deposits in bank, 4785; price of meal, 4788; thinks meal dearer at factor's store, 4794; but quality good, 4799.

MANSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 64), formerly a fisherman at Dunrossness, 2924; now curer of fish for Harrison & Son at Lerwick, 2925, 2926; and superintendent of their workers, 2927; Harrison & Son are principally engaged in Faroe fishing, 2929; they have a store, 2932; is not obliged to deal there, but workers generally do, 2933-2936; his wages are paid, and he pays in cash, 2937; no pass-books, 2944; has no complaint to make, 2947; in Faroe fishing the price not fixed till the end of the season, 2954; family, in the absence of fisherman, get goods and cash if they require at store, 2955, 2957; not obliged to deal at store, 2961; men generally get outfit there, 2962.

MANSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 67), fisherman at Channerwick, 3018; tenant under fish-curer, 3019; formerly under tacksman (Mouat), 3020; bound to fish for him, 3021; ejected by him for selling fish to another dealer, 3022-3028; permitted to remain on paying the expense of the summons and promising obedience, 3029; goods very bad, 3039-3045; obliged to deal at store from want of money, 3041, 3942; at liberty now to fish for any one, 3047.

MEAL, Price of, etc., 393, 1135, 1345, 3413, 4316, 4548, 4706, 4788, 4835, 5045, 5300, 5324, 5330, 5514, 5696, 5799, 5962, 6194, 6235, 6834, 6972, 7400, 7786, 7897, 7951, 7999, 8475, 8697, 8733, 8766, 8890, 8965, 9068, 9286, 9315, 9396, 9812, 9843, 9899, 10,019, 10,222, 10,254, 10,391,10,511, 10,612, 10,676, 10,753, 11,846, 12,658, 12,756, 12,795, 12,870, 13,019, 13,045, 13,166, 13,173, 13,223, 13,250, 13,259, 13,306, 13,388, 13,884, 14,106, 14,570, 14,727, 14,923, 14,965, 14,975, 15,018, 15,833, 16,656, 16,659, 16,820.

MEN (or boys) cannot help incurring debt, 10,282.

MEN curing for themselves, 924, 964, 1074, 3943, 4780, 5428, 5984, 8466, 11,934, 12,056, 12,295, 12,937, 13,034, 13,986, 14,155, 14,893, 15,068, 13,982.

MEN must take goods from fish-curer, 568, 586, 764, 3004, 13,088, 13,982.

MEN supported by merchant in bad season, 731, 954, 3623, 4363, 6274, 10,753, 12,295, 12,547, 13,048.

MEN taking goods from fish-merchant, 2933, 2961, 3004, 3041, 3640, 4238, 4298, 4345, 4488, 4520, 4627, 4671, 4965, 5112, 5436, 5547, 5628, 5679, 5789, 5856, 6057, 6189, 6253, 6554, 6842, 6903, 6944, 7392, 8337, 8519, 8685, 8726, 9286, 9307, 9557, 9828, 9930, 10,386, 10,587, 10,704, 11,806, 12,112, 12,210, 12,266, 12,295, 12,347, 12,686, 12,739, 12,847, 13,087, 13,405, 13,507, 13,701, 13,946, 13,980, 14,796, 15,720, 16,373.

MEN wish liberty in fishing, 544, 560, 659, 788, 1109, 4424, 4584, 4780, 12,635, 12,750, 12,865, 13,425, 13,840, 14,939.

MERCHANTS, monopoly of shop trade, 12,372.

MILLAR, Rev. Duncan (analysis of his evidence, p. 147), United Presbyterian clergyman at Mossbank, 5974; thinks the system of long payments injurious to men, as apt to lead them into debt and to teach them deception [Page 449], as it encourages smuggling, 5981; men curing for themselves, 5984; indebted men under control of shopkeeper, 5995; system by which men are forced to fish, 5997; hosiery, 6004; women would prefer payment in cash, 6006.

MOFFAT, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 413), seaman at Lochside, Lerwick, and serves in Naval Reserve, 16,341; has gone to seal and whale fishing under various agents, 16,343; always deals with the one he sails under, 16,346; until 1867 had settlement at agent's office, 16,347; since then at Custom-house, 16,348; goes down from there and settles his account, 16,349; amount paid on advance notes is not sufficient to sustain his family, and therefore he prefers to leave his advance notes in the agent's hands and let his family obtain supplies from him, 16,359; generally has a balance to get at settlement, 16,366; wife gets cash when she asks, 16,368; men are quite free to deal, but generally go to the shop of the agent they sail under, 16,373.

MONCRIEFF, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 281), baker and provision merchant in Scalloway, 11,461; deals in hosiery, 11,463; pays in goods, 11,464; never gives money, 11,465; mentions case of a woman bringing soap and bartering it for provisions, 11,475; gets worsted from Edinburgh, 11,507; cannot get Shetland wool, 11,508; deals in ready money with fishermen to a small extent--does not run accounts with them, 11,518; possibly a ready money system would improve his trade with them, 11,521.

MONEY articles, 451, 3473, 5093, 6368, 11,545.

MONRO, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 409), second officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick, 16,141; for five years, 16,142; when new regulations came into force in 1867, merchants endeavoured to make deductions other than those they had a right to make, but were stopped, 16,147, 16,148; it is understood that men always pay their accounts to agent after they are settled with, 16,163.

MOODIE, Mrs Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 36), knits, 1848; knits partly with her own and partly with dealer's wool, 1851; paid in goods, 1855; but can get some money if she wishes, 1856; gets lines, 1875; sometimes sells them for money, 1879; has sold to strangers at a cheaper rate that she might get money, 1881, 1882; could always have wool for goods, 1890.

MOODIE, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 371), seaman and fisherman in Lerwick, 14,761; has been at sealing and whaling for a number of years, 14,762; under various owners, 14,764; green hands generally get outfit from merchants, 14,766; goods are as cheap at agent's shop as any other, 14,769; at settlement paid in full at the Custom-house, with the exception of ship's bill, 14,773; no compulsion is used to make him pay his account at agent's, 14,779; men generally get their goods from agent who employs them, but not bound, 14,796; has got money from Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, and has always got cash from agent, 14,800.

MORE, Daniel (analysis of his evidence, p. 232), fisherman and proprietor of house at Cunningster, 9632; once opened a shop at Basta, and the landlord (a merchant) put him out because he was succeeding too well, 9634; turned out of another place because he would not fish, 9638; heavier rent charged when men do not fish, 9639-9645.

MORRISON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 394), lives in Lerwick, 15,637; lives by going errands, knitting stockings, etc., 15,638; sells occasionally neckties, 15,639; some years past sold goods for knitting-women, 15,644; has only once or twice done so lately, 15,649; does not make her living principally by doing errands, 15,698; her evidence contradicted by Mrs E. Quin (p. 425).

MOUAT, Mrs. Andrina (analysis of her evidence, p. 39), lives at Girlsta; knits with her own wool, 2030; paid in cash and goods, 2044; sometimes could not get money, 2052; merchants are not willing to give money, 2067.

MOUAT, William Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 249), partner of Spence & Co., 10,232; and co-manager at Baltasound, 10,233; corroborates Mr. Sandison, 10,236; thinks a system of monthly payments, if it could be introduced, would be an advantage, 10,238; system of book-keeping, 10,242, 10,277; deals a little in hosiery, 10,306; it is generally paid in goods, 10,308.

MOWAT, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 434), boat-builder at Newhaven, 16,888; Shetland boats are inferior to those he is accustomed to build, 16,892; the timber is inferior, and they are lighter, 16,897; thinks a Shetland boat could be used for twelve or fourteen years at the utmost, 16,907; thinks one would be dear at £20, 16,914.

MOUAT, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 105), blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe, 4236; works principally for Messrs. Adie, 4237; in getting goods from Messrs. Adie's shop, pays in cash, 4238; does not know whether there are two prices, cash and credit, 4239; never heard any complaints on the subject, 4247.

MULLAY, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 383), is a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick, 15,140; and has a retail shop, 15,141; employs seven boats in the ling fishing, 15,142; and has a station at Ireland in Dunrossness, 15,143; the only place in the neighbourhood where fish can be landed and dried, 15,144; tenants not bound to fish to him, 15,145; but all do so, 15,146.

NICHOLSON, Mrs. Andrina Anderson or (analysis of her evidence, p. 78), lives in Lerwick, 3495; knits, 3497; has almost always had payment in goods, 3501; has often heard this system complained of, and she thinks justly, 3504; to get money she had to become a dresser, 3505; goods are sold at a higher price by dealers, 3508, 3510; therefore a money system would be much better, 3511; goods are sold by knitters to obtain money, 3516; payment in goods makes girls wear more expensive dress than they should, 3525.

NICHOLSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 211), is a fisherman at North Delting, 8681; for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 8682; has account with them, 8685; settles at end of year, 8686; considers he is bound to fish for merchant, being indebted to him, 8695; meal, 8697; merchants charge a high price for their goods, 8704.

NICHOLSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 293), is a retired merchant in Scalloway, 11,906; was 25 years in business, 11,907; as fish-curer, draper, and general merchant, 11,908; sent ten or twelve boats to the ling fishing, 11,909; was not a tacksman, but landlord held him responsible for the men's rents, 11,912; men under no obligation to fish, 11,928; men on the island of Havera cure their own fish, 11,934; and he sold it for them, 11,935; without charging any commission, 11,938; they dealt with him for goods, 11,939; small boats are most suitable for Shetland fishing, 11,954; in one year, having had a serious loss in the sale of ling, men offered him the use of money they had saved, 11,975; merchants would require to be very honest under this system, for they have ample opportunities of deceiving, 11,981; dealt in hosiery only out of compassion for the poor people--exchanged bread for it, 11,997; or took goods for provisions, 11,998; thinks the goods given by Lerwick dealers for hosiery often inferior, 12,008.

NICHOLSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 212), lives in North Delting; fishes for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 8720; price should be fixed at the beginning of season, 8722; deals at store, 8726; goods dearer there, 8731; quality inferior, 8732.

NICHOLSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 258), is a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick, 10,581; devotes himself entirely to farming now, 10,584; deals with Spence & Co., and other dealers, 10,587; pays in cash generally, 10,592; has a small account, 10,597; sorties yearly, 10,600; never bound to fish, 10,622; or to deal at any particular store, 10,623.

NICHOLSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 81), draper, and to a small extent a dealer in hosiery, 3568; seldom gives lines, 3573; understood in the trade that hosiery is paid in goods, 3575; thinks a change would be beneficial, 3576; but would lower the prices given for hosiery, 3577; there is no profit on hosiery, 3584; pays partly in cash when required, 3593; it is an understanding that the price is principally taken in goods, 3594; never knew of goods or lines being exchanged for cash or necessaries, 3599; but has heard that such things done, 3601.

NICOLSON, Rev. Nicol (analysis of his evidence, p. 291) clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway--has been there for twenty-two years, 11,871; supposed that he was well acquainted with the condition of the fishing population, but finds from the evidence led that he is not, 11,873; was once a fisherman, and when out of debt always got money from merchant if he wished it, 11,874; thinks weekly or monthly settlements would be an advantage if practicable, but in the majority of cases it would not be, 11,875; masters must have security for boats and lines, and so cannot be expected to pay weekly, 11,878; hosiery, 11,895; the rule is to paying goods, 11,898; thinks payment in cash would be an advantage to women, 11,900; thinks a ready money system would be advantageous, but does not see how it would work, 11,905.

OBLIGATION to fish. <See> Tenants.

[Page 450]

OGILVY, Joan (analysis of her evidence, p. 236), knits with her own and other people's wool, 9731; always pays for worsted with cash, but never asked it in exchange for hosiery, 9734, 9735; cannot get payment for hosiery entirely in cash, 9746; gets any cash she requires from one dealer, 9781; never had lines, 9769 and 9787.

OLLASON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 406), member of Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick, 16,018; produces letter from fisherman, stating that by some misunderstanding he had not got the wages he expected to get, and the amount was entirely swallowed up by fish-curer's account and account to a former employer retained from him at settlement, 16,019.

OLLASON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 37), lives in Lerwick, and knits for herself, 1902; sells generally to ladies, sometimes to dealer, 1904, 1905; is paid in money and goods, 1906; buys her own wool, 1920; it is generally preferred to knit for ladies and be paid in money, 1924.

OUTFIT, 2962, 9150, 9306, 10,801, 10,940, 12,407, 12,511, 13,755, 14,316, 14,765, 14,809, 14,827, 15,279, 15,549, 15,910, 15,947, 16,224, 16,270, 16,352, 16,534.

OYSTERS, 3970, 11,458, 11,802, 12,313.

PARAFFIN Oil, price of, 10,263.

PASS-BOOKS, 12, 243, 371, 495, 690, 1340, 1348, 1481, 1611, 1664, 1670, 1700, 1791, 1942, 2077, 2213, 2383, 2455, 2676, 2944, 3668, 4099, 4337, 4881, 5117, 5170, 5574, 6400, 6917, 6994, 8954, 9827, 10,329, 11,839, 12,138, 13,176, 13,470.

PETERSON, Euphemia (analysis of her evidence, p. 157), lives with her parents at Hillswick, 6441; father is a fisherman and tenant, 6442; she knits, 6444; is paid in goods, 6448; never asked or got money, 6460; makes her own worsted, 6462; has worked at kelp, 6463; would be paid in cash if she wished, 6467; eggs paid in goods, 6483.

PAUPERISM, 5234, 7272, 7631, 8637, 15,406.

PAUPERS, 7649, 8378, 12,496, 15,406.

PAYMENT of persons in curing establishment, 120, 2939, 5004, 5103, 5254, 5752, 5907, 6602, 8804, 10,110, 10,345, 12,808, 13,353, 14,086, 15,766.

PEACE, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 425), partner of Peace & Love, drapers, Kirkwall; buys Shetland hosiery both from merchants and knitters, pays in cash, gets goods at about the same price from both; has been told there is no profit on hosiery; thinks a cash system would be a benefit to all parties concerned, 16,658.

PETERSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 164), is a fisherman at Hillyar and lives at Hillswick, 6772; tenant of land there, 6773; fishes for Mr. Laurence Smith, 6774; formerly fished for Mr. Anderson, 6776; left him because he refused to supply him with goods, as he was largely in debt, 6777; was summoned for the amount, 6785; no decree as yet in the action, 6791; fishermen are liable for the loss of hired lines, 6808; smuggling fish, 6822; when an indebted man ceases to fish for a merchant, he is required to find a cautioner, 6826; price of meal, 6834; men are not obliged to deal with merchant, 6842; his daughter works at kelp, 6851; knits, 6852; and sells his eggs, 6853; is generally paid in goods, but never asks money, 6856.

PETERSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 166), is a fisherman, 6898; to Mr. Joseph Leask in Faroe fishing, 6900; formerly at home fishing under Mr. Anderson, 6901, 6902; had account at his shop, 6903; could not get cash during season, 6905; but had any goods he required, 6909; deals with Mr. Leask now, 6913; refused a pass-book, 6917, 6919.

PETRIE, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 28), lives in Fetlar, 1416; knits her own wool, 1420; sells to dealers, 1432; paid in goods, 1439; price fixed by dealer, 1440; lines, 1465.

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