Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 5 of 8)

Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 5 of 8)

9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No.

9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct.

9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes.

9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some member of my family brought them home.

9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes; when the account is read over to me I can.

9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know the price of it?-Yes.

9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time when you buy it?-Yes.

9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a very little which we may buy from some other shop.

9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very little.

9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes.

9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No.

9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes.

9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am not able to say what they do.

9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I cannot say.

9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr. Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d.

9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes.

9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes.

9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?- Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is generally unbleached cotton that we buy.

9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes.

9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay it to Mr. Edmonstone for me.

9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them against you?-Yes.

9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I suppose; but I don't know anything about that.

9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No.

9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them.

9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No.

9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present, and it has been against me since the first year of the company in consequence of bad fishings and bad crops.

9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line, according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and a line for a buoy rope.

9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes.

9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man for what we call a weight of lines.

9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in our favour, or against us, as case may be.

9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes.

9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them by instalments?-No.

9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the lines are really good, they may do for four.

9863. Then you will have nothing to pay for lines the second year if you have paid them up in the first year?-If we have paid them up we have nothing to pay afterwards.

9864. Do you usually manage to pay up your lines in the first year?-We generally pay what we can when we settle. What we have over from the fishing is just put to the payment of the whole that we are due.

9865. Are there any other fishing expenses excepting the boats and lines?-Yes; the hooks and tomes, or small lines, have always to be put in repair.

9866. Do you pay for them?-Yes; we buy the whole of them, and we repair the tomes and hooks ourselves.

9867. Then that is not an additional expense?-No.

9868. Do you ever get any cash advanced to you from Spence & Co.?-At times I get a few shillings.

9869. How long is it since you began to fish for them?-I have fished for Mr. Spence since 1857, and for Spence & Co. in 1868, 1869, 1870, and 1871.

9870. Have you ever got anything more than four shillings in cash?-No, not in cash.

9871. Have you any taxes or poor-rates to pay?-Yes; the poor-rates are charged by Mr. White, the inspector and collector, and they are paid in cash.

9872. Do you draw that from your account with the company, or how do you raise the cash for it?-I get a little cash from the company to pay my poor-rates.

9873. Do you sell any stock off your farm?-Yes, when I have a cow I sell it. I cannot sell one every year; I have not so many as that.

9874. Have you no other beasts but cows?-No.

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9875. Who did you sell your last cow to?-The last I sold to the company; it was a three-year-old quey. It was taken to the sale in May 1871, and I got 9s., which was put to my account. I got no money.

9876. Did you ever get money for any of the stock you have sold during the last five years?-No.

9877. Were they always put into your account?-Yes.

9878. Did you always sell them to Spence & Co.?-I sold them to Mr. David Edmonstone. I sold nothing to the company except that quey.

9879. Why did you sell them to Mr. Edmonstone?-They were put down towards my rent.

9880. Then you did not pay your rent at that time through Spence & Co.?-No; I was not fishing for them then. I sold a fat cow to Mr. David Edmonstone since I began to fish for Spence, to pay a balance which I was due him. These are all the cattle I have had to sell.

9881. Have you not sold any other stock except these two cattle for the last five or six years?-No.

9882. Is there any other way you have of getting money except by selling your stock and your fish?-No.

9883. Then you will not have much money passing through your hands?-No, very little.

9884. Will you have £1 in your hands in the course of a year?-I could hardly say, because I don't take particular note of how many twopences or sixpences pass through my hands.

9885. But will you have £1 at a time?-No; I have not had £1 at a time.

9886. Have you had 10s.?-Yes; I have had that.

9887. Do you sometimes sell your winter fish?-Yes.

9888. Do you get money for them?-Yes, if we ask it.

9889. Who do you sell them to?-To Spence & Co.

9890. Are you generally paid in money for your winter fish?-A little money and some goods.

9891. But these are settled for at the time?-They do not enter your account at all.

9892. Would you get the whole price of your winter fish in cash if you asked for it?-I believe I would; but I could not say, because I have never asked the whole of it in that way.

9893. Why have you never asked it?-Because I thought the goods were just the same from their shop as from any other place, and I did not think of asking them for money with which to go to any other place and purchase goods.

9894. Did you think you would not have got it all if you had asked for it in cash?-I cannot say, because I never did ask it; but I think I would have got it if I had asked them, so far as I know.

9895. Are you quite content to go on in this way without getting your money into your own hands?-I should like to get all my own money into my own hands if I could.

9896. You say you think you could have got the money for your winter fish if you had asked it?-I think I could.

9897. Then why did you not ask for it if you would like to have your money?-For the reason I have mentioned: that I thought the goods were the same in their shop as in any other place and therefore I did not ask it.

9898. Then why do you want the money?-Because if I had the money, I would perhaps buy my goods somewhere else, if I thought I could get them cheaper or better.

9899. Have you any fault to find with the quality of the goods you get at their shop?-Sometimes I think the meal is not very good. Flour was sometimes 1s. 3d., and it was not very good.

9900. Did you ever try any other flour?-Yes; I got a little from other places. It was not very much that I could buy, but I got flour at other shops which was of superior quality.

9901. What did you pay for it?-About 1s. 4d or 1s. 5d.

9902. Then that was it little dearer than the flour you got at the company's shop?-Yes; I got it at Mr. Johnston's.

9903. Would you not have got as good flour at the company's shop if you had paid a higher price for it?-Yes; they had good flour at 1s. 6d.

9904. But you cannot complain of them giving you a worse quality of flour at a lower price?-No.

9905. Was the meal the same as you get at any place for the same sum?-It was 1d. per peck higher last summer.

9906. And you said it was not quite so good as you would like?- That was the flour.

9907. I thought you said so about the meal also?-There were some weeks when the meal was really good, and some weeks when it was not so good.

9908. How did you get the money with which to purchase flour at Johnston's?-We sold a few eggs or a little butter, and got it in that way.

9909. You did not pay for it in money, but in eggs or butter?- Yes.

9910. Is that it common way of selling your eggs and butter?- Yes.

9911. You do not get money for them?-No.

9912. Why did you not take the eggs and butter to Spence & Co.'s shop?-Because we sometimes thought of trying another place.

9913. Why did you not take your money for the winter fishing and buy your provisions at another place if you thought you could get them better?-Our earnings from it were very small; and for all the money we had to get, it was not worth while to take it from Spence & Co.'s shop and go to any other place with it, even although we might have got our goods it little cheaper. I think all my winter fishing only came to about 30s.

9914. How far do you live from the company's shop?-Nearly two miles.

9915. Is Johnston's shop nearer to you?-Very little.

9916. Is there any other shop nearer?-No.

9917. Have you ever been asked to fish for any other person than Spence & Co. since they began business?-No.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, MAGNUS HENDERSON, examined.

9918. You are a proprietor near Haroldswick?-Yes, a small proprietor.

9919. You have been resident in Unst all your life?-Yes.

9920. You were at one time engaged in the fishing yourself, and you know the system that is practised here?-Yes, so far.

9921. I presume the system of annual settlements has been one of long continuance here?-Yes.

9922. The fishermen have also for a long time combined the calling of farming with that of fishing?-Yes.

9923. They fish for about four months in the year, and are engaged on their farms for the rest of the time?-Yes.

9924. How has the rent been usually paid to the landlord during the last twenty or thirty years?-Very often the tenants have fished for the landlord; and of course at the end of the year, when their accounts were made up, the rent was taken into account along with other matters.

9925. When they did not fish for their landlord, has there been any arrangement between the landlord and the fish-merchant for the payment of the rent?-Yes. In some cases, I suppose, the fish-curers are bound to pay the rent to the landlord for the tenants who fish for them.

9926. Are you aware whether there has been a written arrangement of that kind between the landlord and the fish-merchants?-I am not aware of that.

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9927. Of course, when the fish-merchant happens to be the tacksman, that is it different case?-It is.

9928. But where the fish-merchant is not the tacksman, is it the practice that he generally settles with the landlord for the rent?-I think so, or he becomes accountable to the landlord for the amount of the rent.

9929. Do you know whether the rent has been paid by means of lines handed to the fishermen or tenants, or whether the merchant just hands a cheque to the landlord for the amount of rent due by all the fishermen?-I am not prepared to answer that.

9930. Has it been it universal practice in Unst, or anything like a universal practice, for fishermen to deal at the shops kept by the landlord or merchant for whom they fished?-That has generally been the practice.

9931. Is there any understanding that they shall go to that shop for their supplies?-There is such an understanding, but they are not compelled to do so. Of course if a man is in debt, and has no means with which to go to another shop, he is very thankful to get his supplies from the merchant, and he has to get them on credit.

9932. And when he gets them on credit, the merchant is safe to get paid by the fish if the men deliver their fish to him?-He gives them credit, and he must take his chance of being paid when the fish are delivered.

9933. I suppose a fisherman here does not wish very often to change his residence and his place of fishing?-Not very often.

9934. But if he did happen to do so would not the fact of him having an account with the merchant in the place prevent him from shifting his quarters?-I don't know that it would.

9935. He might have an account standing against him here, and would he not be bound to pay it?-Yes. He ought to pay it before he shifted to another employer.

9936. And the merchant might raise an action against him if he were to remove?-Yes, and if he could not pay his debt.

9937. Is that it thing of frequent occurrence?-No.

9938. Do you think that men are prevented from shifting to other places, by the fact that they are in debt?-I don't know that they are. I have not known any case of that within my own experience.

9939. Have you known cases where a man wanted to engage with another merchant in the island, or in the neighbouring islands, and who was unable to do so in consequence of being in debt to his former employer?-No such case has come under my notice.

9940. Do you know whether it is usual, when a man does engage with a new employer in that way, that the new employer takes over and becomes responsible for any debt that has been standing in the former employer's books?-They very often do that, but I don't know if it is a general rule.

9941. Have you known cases of that sort occurring?-Yes.

9942. Pretty often?-Not very often, but I have known of some.

9943. Is that done at the request of the fishermen, or is it an arrangement between the merchants?-I should think it was arranged partly with the fishermen and partly with the merchants.

9944. You think the fisherman has no objection to it?-No.

9945. Do you think the condition and the character of the fishermen in this district would be improved if cash payments were the rule instead of these long settlements?-I could not say. I have no doubt some would manage their affairs better if there were cash payments, but some would manage them worse. There are differences in the character of the men here, as everywhere else.

9946. Do you not think that relying on the merchant for supplies if a bad season comes, makes these fishermen a little more careless in running up accounts?-In [som]e cases it does.

9947. They feel that the merchant is anxious to employ them, and that if a bad season comes, and their debt is not beyond all bounds, they are safe to get supplies for the season?-Yes; perhaps some of them look too much to that.

9948. Is it a common complaint that the fishermen do not know the price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season?- Yes, they do not generally make any arrangement for the price before then.

9949. Do you think that is a reasonable complaint?-I don't know. I think that if the thing is conducted on just principles it is a good thing for both parties, because the fishermen have the same chance of being, benefited by a rising market as the merchant; but it been a general thing to make no arrangement as to price until the fish are sold.

9950. Have you known any cases in which the price has been fixed at the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that I have known any particular case of that kind.

9951. Do you think the fishermen would agree to an arrangement fixing the price at the beginning of the season?-I think some of them would; but perhaps some of them would rather allow it to continue in the old way.

9952. Do you think they would not like to fish for so much weekly wages, and so much additional at the end of the season according to the market price?-I don't think they would. I think they would be better satisfied to be paid in proportion to the amount of fish they catch.

9953. Would it be possible to pay them in proportion to the amount of fish they catch, and also to pay them at shorter times?- It would be possible enough to do it, if they came to an agreement as to the price per cwt. for green fish. If that were done, it would be at the option of the fish-curers and the fishermen to make an arrangement for paying at shorter periods.

9954. If they got their money in hand in that way, do you not think that would lead them to be more independent than they are at present?-It ought to do.

9955. Don't you think the settlement with the fishermen is delayed too long after the fishing season is over?-I have no doubt it is delayed long enough; but perhaps sometimes it is a long time before the merchants get paid for their fish, and that may prevent them from making the settlement earlier.

9956. Do you mean that the settlement is delayed until the merchant realizes the price of his fish?-I understand that is very often the case.

9957. So that, in that view, the merchant is really to some extent trading on the fishermen's capital?-Yes, while it is in his possession; but very often he has not a long time of it, because I understand he generally sells his fish on credit, and it is some time before he is paid.

9958. But a man who sells upon credit in that way requires some capital to enable him to carry on his business?-Yes.

9959. And in this case it is really the fishermen's capital that is being traded upon; that is to say, the fisherman has not received payment for his fish, and that money which he ought to have received for his fish is in the hands of the merchant?-But very often a fisherman has taken up the amount of his fishing before the settlement.

9960. He may have done so in goods?-Yes.

9961. Is that the case with most of them?-It is the case with a good many, and some of them perhaps have overdrawn their account.

9962. Then in that case the merchant is really advancing the price of the fish in goods beforehand?-Yes.

9963. Would it not be as easy for the merchant, and better for the fishermen to make the same advance to them in the course of the season in cash?-I suppose so.

9964. Only the merchant has a profit on the goods under the present system?-Of course he has.

9965. And in that case the merchant gets his upon the goods, but the fisherman gets no interest on [Page 241] the money which he lies out of until settlement?-Of course not.

9966. Therefore the merchant has the benefit both of the interest on the fishermen's capital in his hand, and, in addition to that, the profit upon the goods furnished to the fishermen?-Yes.

9967. And besides that, he is safe not to lose upon the transactions of the year, not having the price fixed until his sales are realized?-Yes. The only chance by which a merchant sometimes loses is, that he advances a man further than the man's earnings can meet.

9968. But he can do that or not, as he pleases?-Of course; but there are sometimes cases where the fisherman requires a certain amount of supplies. He cannot do without them, and if the fishing is short then he is not able to meet them.

9969. Does it not strike you as being rather a one-sided transaction, the fisherman gets no interest on his capital, which is in the merchant's hands in the shape of the price of his fish?-It is not very long there.

9970. It is there for four or five months, and in the meantime the merchant is making a profit on the goods?-If the merchant could turn over the fish when he gets them he might be able to pay the men at once, but there is generally a long time between the time when the fisherman delivers his fish and when they are brought to market and the money paid. The fish take a long time to cure, and the summer is often done before much of the fish can be sent to market. Then the merchant generally sells at two or three months' credit to the buyer, and it is that time before he can realize his money.

9971. Do you know whether the merchants in Unst are in the habit of dealing much in stock?-I don't know; there is generally a sale once a year for the cattle, and any one who wishes to go to the sale is at liberty to go. If any one wishes to dispose of his stock privately to any one else, he is quite at liberty to do so.

9972. Who are the largest purchasers at the sales?-I cannot say, for I have not been always there.

9973. Who conducts them?-An auctioneer from Lerwick, Mr. Henry.

9974. Do you think a ready-money system would be any improvement as regards the fishermen?-I think it would. In fact a ready-money system in anything would be an improvement over barter: at least it ought to be, but whether it would or not I cannot say.

9975. Do you think that, in point of fact, the present system is one of barter?-Yes.

9976. I suppose very little money passes into the hands of the fishermen in the course of the year?-There is sometimes a good deal. If a fisherman has money to get he always gets it, so far as I am aware.

9977. That is to say, if he has a balance at the end of the year he will get that?-Yes; and I presume that if a man has not a balance he cannot well ask for anything.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.

9978. You are one of the partners of the firm of Spence & Co., and you have been so since the formation of the company in 1868?- Yes.

9979. Formerly you carried on business in your own name?-Yes, in company with Messrs. Hay & Co. of Lerwick, at Uyea Sound.

9980. Was that a separate partnership from Messrs. Hay & Co.?- Yes. I was manager there, and had a share of the business. It was entirely distinct from their Lerwick business.

9981. In 1868 you entered into partnership with some other gentlemen who had been carrying on a similar business in the island of Unst?-Yes.

9982. And at that time, I understand, you took a lease from Major Cameron of all his property in the island?-Almost the whole of it. There was some of it on lease before, which we don't have.

9983. You have all his property, exclusive of the large farms held on lease before?-Yes. We had two or three small farms let to us on lease as well.

9984. Was that arrangement with Major Cameron embodied in a written lease?-Yes.

9985. Have you got it here?-No. We have a copy of it at Baltasound.

9986. By the terms of that lease, I understand there was no obligation upon the tenants to fish for your firm?-No.

9987. And it was intimated to them at the time that they were at perfect liberty to deliver their fish to any person?-I don't know if it was intimated to them specially at the time; but I think Mr. Walker told them so at one time when we wished him to meet the tenants both in the north and south end of the island.

9988. What was the occasion of that meeting?-Just to explain to them the nature of the improvements, and the connection between us as the tenants and them as the sub-tenants.

9989. The tenants under that lease pay their rents to you directly?-Yes.

9990. And they have no concern with the proprietor?-None.

9991. You are responsible for the rent stipulated by you to be paid?-Yes; for rent, poor-rates, and taxes affecting the tenant.

9992. It is part of your arrangement with the landlord that you shall superintend, and endeavour to get the tenants to carry out certain improvements upon the estate?-Yes; we are bound under the lease to carry out certain improvements.

9993. And a division of the lands has also taken place under that arrangement?-Yes.

9994. Have you proceeded with these improvements to a considerable extent?-Yes. We have got on remarkably well with them; better than I expected when we first took it on. It has been a very uphill job.

9995. Do you find that that improved system of farming is compatible with the men continuing the occupation of fishermen?-I think it is, on the small farms, because the fisherman has a very great deal of spare time in winter, which in former times he did not profitably employ, and he can do it now on his farm to great advantage.

9996. Do you think it would not be possible in Shetland for the men to follow the occupation of fishermen all the year round?-I have given that subject most earnest thought. At one time I thought it might, but latterly I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible. In the first place, we have no fresh fish market here, and it is impossible to get the fish into the south market in a fresh state when they would command a high price. Then, in the winter time the weather is so broken, and the seas round this coast so boisterous, that it is almost impossible to go to the deep sea in boats; and the fish that are caught near the shores in the sounds and bays are in such limited quantity that they would not be nearly sufficient to meet the man's daily wants. From the farm, however, he has sufficient potatoes and milk for his family; and even on the smallest farms he has, I should say, six months meal on the average.

9997. But if the fishermen were supplied with a different kind of boats, such as are used in other parts of Scotland, say of 32 feet keel, such as are used at Wick, could they not go to sea in winter?-I am afraid our fishermen would not take very kindly to these boats.

9998. Perhaps not at first, but would they not do so after a certain period of apprenticeship?-I think I would back six of our men against six of the Wick men in their respective boats, and I would expect our men to come on shore when the Wick men would be drowned. I think the Wick boats are much too heavy in a sea, and they are much more in danger of filling than our light skiffs are. I remember on one occasion, on the north of Unst, when some of our boats were out, and a gentleman's yacht was near them dredging shells, he thought they could never come ashore, and kindly ran down among them, thinking to render the assistance [Page 242] but when he reached them he found they were far drier than he was. He came in with some of his bulwarks washed away, while they got safe ashore.

9999. Don't you think the weather is just as severe where these Wick and Buckie boats fish as it is in this quarter?-I believe it is as severe, but I don't know if the tides and currents are as rapid and strong, because they have a longer stretch of coast. Off any land end, the current is very strong and the sea runs very high, and I think that nearly three-fourths of all the accidents that have occurred in Shetland have occurred in crossing these springs of tide,-strong currents going right against the wind, just inland, as off the point of Unst, or the point of Sumburgh. It is not on the ocean that our boats would be lost, but in taking the land and crossing the tides near headlands.

10,000. If it were not for these dangerous tide-ways, would it be possible for the men to go off to the haaf in winter if they had proper boats for the purpose?-They could go off a certain distance, but the day is very short here, and I don't think they would have much chance with the long lines in a day of about eight hours.

10,001. Has any attempt been made to introduce an extensive system of winter fishing here?-I don't think any attempt has ever been made, except in the spring on the west side at Scalloway and east at Fetlar, where there are spawning beds apparently for the ling. They come nearer into the land there in March and April, and some attempts have been made at these places with our ordinary boats.

10,002. But these are partial attempts, and have not been continued?-They are conducted every year, but some years they are very unsuccessful.

10,003. In settling with your fishermen, I understand you settle with them at the different stations, at Uyea Sound, Baltasound, and Haroldswick, quite separately?-At Uyea Sound the settlements are quite distinct; at Baltasound and Haroldswick they are combined. Some crews are settled for at Haroldswick, but there is only one set of books at Baltasound.

10,004. Can you give me a general idea from recollection, to what extent your fishermen are settled with in goods in the course of the year? Will it be to the extent of one-fourth or one half of their earnings?-Some men may take out not one-fourth, some may take one-fourth, some a half, and some more than the whole.

10,005. Have you ever thought of striking an average?-I have looked into my cash books several times in past years, and when I have summed up the amount of green fish received at the price agreed on and paid, I found that, as a general rule, at settling time I paid in cash, either in rent, which is cash, or cash given into the hands of the fishermen, fully two-thirds of the entire amount of fish coming into my hands.

10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any system by which the settlement should not be made at such long intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled conviction that it would be very much for the curer to pay monthly in cash.

10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.

10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as may be agreed upon.

10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience, that the fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell, when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man and pay him, which cost us something; but I found that they all declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst and Yell that year was engaged at 7s, per cwt. I made that bargain in December in writing; but when settling time came we could afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction, but if I had done so the fishermen would have thought I had treated them dishonestly.

10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price. I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and said that a bargain was a bargain.

10,011. Did you pay down the 7s. 3d. in consequence of any representation made by them?-No; I did it quite spontaneously.

10,012. Then it was you who did not stick to the bargain?-It was; I improved the bargain for them.

10,013. Suppose it had been the other way, what would have taken place?-I would not have asked the fishermen to agree to take a less price. No doubt there are fishermen who have been in my employ for many years, who, if they knew I was losing by the fish, would not have asked the money; but others would take all they could get, whether it paid me or not.

10,014. But, upon the whole, you think that if that system were introduced by a large firm, there is reasonable prospect of it being carried out?-So far as the fish-curer is concerned, there would be a certain profit to him.

10,015. But do you think it would be practicable so far as both fishermen and fish-curer are concerned?-I think it would pauperize a number of the fishermen because there are a great number of them in debt, and in the transition from the one system to the other they would require to pay up their debts, so far as their means would go, and their dealings would be less.

10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system would not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see how some of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In 1868 the fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst and Yell amounted £1607, which could not average much over £4, 10s. to each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour to the amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash for rents to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and others, £1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223 against the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.

10,017. Does that return apply to your establishment at Uyea Sound only?-It applies to our entire business in Unst and Yell.

10,018. Besides £1607 from fish, have you any idea what income the fishermen would receive that year from other sources, such as for sales of stock?-Yes. We can produce the rolls of cattle sales, which show what cattle were sold in the spring; and we would have a good idea what amount of fat cattle were sold in the rest of the year.

10,019. In whose custody are these sale rolls?-We have them; we conduct the sales. Then, in the year 1869 the crops were lost, which made 1870 a very trying year on this island, and more especially to Spence & Co. We imported that year about £2300 worth of meal and oatseed, and £173 of potatoes; and we paid the same amount of cash in rents.

10,020. Were these importations distributed among the fishermen and others at your different shops in the island?-Yes, among the fishermen; but we had to supply many who were not fishermen, or see them starving around us.

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10,021. That importation of meal, and the sale of it on credit, would, I presume, leave the bulk of the fishermen considerably in debt?-That year it would; except those who had saved some money.

10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were before?-Of course; very much more.

10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful fishings and better crops.

10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I may as well read an extract from it 'If we don't give unlimited advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply interested in the -- properties, no doubt from being more in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated to raise any tenant in self-respect.'

10,025. You speak in that letter of 'forced advances:' what were these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or £3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent. That looked very like forced advances.

10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.

10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe that 13 years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does now.

10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him from the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him from a fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that purpose, to some other fish-curer who would do so.

10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time when I was at Uyea Sound as a fish-curer trying to engage any men who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt, because I found that many of them required more from the shop than their fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after rent, until I saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.

10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.

10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord, or by his factor?- It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the money.

10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord or any one representing him?-No.

10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of the men being taken away sometimes.

10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and although they were in your debt?-Yes.

10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no arrangement.

10,036. Why did you not try to secure your debt by arrestment?- Because the proprietor's right of hypothec would cover the man's whole effects.

10,037. But you might have arrested the money in the hands of the new employer?-He might probably have advanced more than the man might catch in the season before he commenced; so that there was nothing to arrest.

10,038. Did you never try to secure your debt in that way?-I have tried it, but have been unsuccessful.

10,039. Have you, within the last 12 years, met with cases of that sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay his rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking me for money, and I told them I could not advance them any further. They would then go away, and come back and tell me that the proprietor's agent or ground officer had informed them that they must get their rent, and that must pay it; and that if I did not do that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.

10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed principally under the ground officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.

10,041. You did not find that system in existence on other estates?-I only came in contact with the tenants on that property.

10,042. Did no other tenants fish for you up till 1868?-No; except Lord Zetland's.

10,043. Have you been obliged in that way to pay rents for Lord Zetland's tenants also?-No, not for Lord Zetland's.

10,044. Only for the late Mrs. Mouat's?-Yes.

10,045. Did that practice cease when the estates passed to Major Cameron?-They only passed to him at her death last year.

10,046. That was after you had got your lease of the estates?- Yes.

10,047. And since you have had the lease, of course, your control over the tenants has been direct?-Yes.

10,048. And no forced advance of that kind could be required?- No; but, of course whatever the tenant might earn at the fishing, we had still to pay his rent. That was one advance we could not get clear of. The rent was due, and we were responsible for it to the proprietor. The great drawback in the trade is the debts, and the advances given that are never repaid.

10,049. Is it not in your own power to stop your advances whenever you think the debtor is unable to pay more?-No doubt; but suppose a family in the month of January who have no food in the house: there are eight children and a wife, and an aged mother, perhaps, we stop giving them supplies of meal, you can easily guess the consequences.

10,050. If you were to stop their supplies, might they not obtain them by having recourse to some other merchant or fish-curer?- Yes; but it would be upon the same principle-upon credit again.

10,051. And you would lose your debt?-We would lose our debt, and credit, and everything.

10,052. How would you provide for the transition from that state of things to a system in which the payments would be monthly?- I think it would take greater penetration and wisdom than I can boast of, to solve such a ticklish point of political economy. I am afraid pauperism would first increase.

10,053. But would it not be better for the men in the long run?-I don't think it would be any better for the man who has plenty of money now, and a good many of them have that. Such a man comes and buys from us if he wants; and if he does not want, he goes where he likes. If he has got a cow to sell, and we can give him as good a price as another, he will perhaps sell to but he is quite his own master as to where he will [Page 244] sell. But a man with a very small amount of stock, and no credit, and no cash, and no crop after February, would be in a very difficult position until the month of June, when he began to fish.

10,054. Can men during these eight months not get some sort of wages for labour?-The only kind of work in Unst is at the chromate ore quarries; but they can only employ a very limited number of men compared with the population, and those who work in the quarries in winter generally work in summer also. Their men are usually employed for the whole year and there is no room for the fishermen to be employed there.

10,055. Have you any interest in these chromate quarries?-No.

10,056. Is it not your opinion, from the facts you have stated, that the population of the island is rather greater than it is able to maintain?-I think that if the inhabitants of the island were to work the ground they have, they could take food enough out of Unst to feed the 2800 or 3000 inhabitants that are in it.

10,057. Would it not be one effect of the improvements which are being carried out under the management of your firm, to enable the parties to tide over the transition period between the present credit system and the cash system?-Perhaps I may be too sanguine; but my hope is, that if we succeed in carrying through the improvements which have been begun, in six years' time every tenant on the island will be independent of every man, and then he may make his bargain as he likes.

10,058. Do you calculate that it will take six years to wipe out existing debts?-Yes; and that will require renewed exertion on the part of every man. I don't think the idleness of the winter will do it; I think we all want a stimulus.

10,059. Does it not occur to you that this want of energy arises in a great degree from the feeling which the people have, that at the worst they will get credit from the merchant?-There is no doubt that has a very bad effect upon them.

10,060. So that the removal of that sense of dependence might be the very stimulus you desiderate?-It might.

10,061. And your own system of monthly payments would probably be the very best way to apply that stimulus?-I believe it would; and I believe that with average years of fishing, if we could employ the population for six months in winter at profitable wages, we might get into the money system more easily.

10,062. In what way would you suggest employing them for six months at profitable wages?-I don't know; I am afraid the winter fishing cannot be improved.

10,063. And there is no other kind of employment in which wages can be given?-No; unless Government would improve the fishing harbours-that would be a very good way or by giving us more roads. This system, which has obtained so long in Shetland, seems to be natural to the soil; for when the roads were made, the whole of them, except the one in Unst, were made under the superintendence of a captain of the Navy and a captain of the Royal Engineers; and we could not do without credit-I suppose you would call it truck-although the cash was being paid every month. We had to appoint a contractor in every district to supply the workers with meal, and the officer in charge of the roads granted checks to the men.

10,064. Was not that done in consequence of the absence of shops in the district?-No; they had to go to the shop in the district and get the meal. In every district where the works were being carried on we had a contractor engaged to supply meal to the workers.

10,065. Do you mean a man keeping a shop?-We selected a man in the district, and the officer in charge passed orders on him for meal to A, B, or C, and he deducted that from their wages every month, and paid them the balance in cash.

10,066. How long is it since these roads were made?-In 1849 and 1850. It was after the failure of the potatoes in 1847.

10,067. Were the funds for making these roads obtained from Government?-No; Government only gave the superintendence of a staff of sappers and miners.

10,068. Was the work done by local assessment?-No; the money was raised for relieving the destitution in Shetland by the Edinburgh Board, of which Mr Skene was secretary.

10,069. Then that was really an enterprise undertaken for the relief of a temporary destitution?-Yes.

10,070. And the meal was distributed by way of relieving pressing want?-Yes.

10,071. You said you were in possession of the sale rolls of all the sales for some years back?-Almost them all. It was I who first started sales in the North Isles. I began them at Cullivoe when I was there. There never had been any sales until I got the lease of the property from Major Cameron.

10,072. Could you give me a note of the principal purchasers at the sales during the last two or three years in Unst?-I could; but the principal purchasers at the sales for the last two or three years have been ourselves and Mr. Jeffrey, a farmer and cattle-dealer. At the last sales, I suppose, we bought two-thirds of the whole cattle sold.

10,073. Were these generally purchased in order to liquidate an existing debt?-No; a great many of the men-those who have most cattle to sell-have always most cash to get. That has been my experience. A poor man is generally poor every way, and he generally gets into the worst fishing-boat.

10,074. How does that happen?-He has begun poor, and been unfortunate, and, some may think, unlucky.

10,075. But why should he get into the worst fishing-boat?-There is no assignable reason for that, but very often you will find that certain men who have been unfortunate just keep together.

10,076. But the fact of a man being unfortunate perhaps arises from him not being so good a fisherman or so good a man of business as the others?-Yes. He just gets into association with men of the same class as himself, on the principle of birds of a feather.

10,077. But, I presume, you very often do purchase either privately or at these sales, cattle from some of your debtors, and enter them in your account?-Very often. A great many of the cattle purchased at the sales are not paid for until I settle with the men in my district. Some men-not tenants of ours at all, but tenants of Lord Zetland-have been asked to come and take the money after the sale, but have said, 'I am not at all requiring it just now; I only want my money once a year.' They have said that to me more than once this year, so that I could not get clear of the money for the cattle which I bought.

10,078. Were these men running an account with you?-Very little. They come perhaps once a month and see how the account stands, and get perhaps a pound or so in cash.

10,079. A statement was made in Edinburgh to the effect that when a merchant bought a beast from some of his debtors in that way, he had really the fixing of the price himself?-That is a very serious mistake; I must say that twenty years ago that was the case, but I think the first break to that in the North Isles was, as I have already said, my commencing a cattle sale. The very year I commenced the cattle sale, as I can prove by documentary evidence, the price of cattle rose fully one-fourth, and ever since there has been an auctioneer appointed to conduct the sales in Yell and in Unst. I have invariably told every tenant in my district, that if they could do any better with any produce-such as butter, eggs, cows, or fish-than by bringing them to me, they were quite at liberty to do so. I said that to them over and over again.

10,080. Why did you tell them that so often?-Because I had an opportunity of telling it to them every time they came with their produce and asked the price. A man might come with a jar of butter one day, another jar a few days afterwards.

10,081. But did they not know without being told, that they might go where they thought they could get a better price?-I thought they did; but they might [Page 245] think that as we stood in the relation to them of landlord, as well as fish-curer and merchant, we might force them in some way; and I wanted to do away with that impression, both as to the fishing and as to the purchase of produce, because, whatever control we might have had the power of exercising over them, we did not wish it to be exercised, or to have it felt that there was such a power in our hands.

10,082. In point of fact, I suppose that by far the greater number of the fishermen in this island sell their fish to you?-Yes. There is only one boat that does not fish for us-Mr. John Johnston's.

10,083. Are there not some of the crews at the winter fishing who do not fish for you?-I cannot speak so well about the winter fishing, because it is carried on in small boats, and the men take their fish anywhere they like.

10,084. Do they sell their winter fish to you for ready money?- Yes, for ready money, or for goods if they want them, whichever they like. We buy in North Yell just now all winter, and pay the cash just as the men want it, or give them goods.

10,085. There is no Faroe fishing carried on by your firm?-No.

10,086. About how many tenants are there altogether on the estate that you hold in tack on this island?-I think about 150.

10,087. About how many of them are engaged in fishing in your boats?-The whole of them, I think, who do fish for us.

10,088. Do you buy a large quantity of kelp?-I buy almost all that is bought in the islands.

10,089. How many women are employed at that?-They vary very much, because they just do it as they like themselves.

10,090. Is there a separate rent charged in your lease for the kelp shores?-It is included in the whole rent.

10,091. Do you pay a higher rent to Major Cameron under your lease than you receive from the fishermen?-Yes; we pay about £200 more than we receive, but that is for the scattalds and kelp shores, which the tenants have the use of on certain conditions.

10,092. Do you think the scattalds and kelp shores alone are worth that increased rent?-I have often wished that we had never entered into that lease, but when we have entered into it we must try to make the best of it.

10,093. Then you think the scattalds and kelp shores are not worth so much?-They might be worth that if they were taken from the tenants and developed into sheep-walks, but they are not worth that to us.

10,094. Have you not the power of making them into sheep-walks for yourselves?-Yes; but we have not done so.

10,095. The tenants still have the use of them upon certain conditions?-Yes.

10,096. Do they largely avail themselves of that right upon making that payment?-I am sorry to say that we lose about £100 a year by them.

10,097. Do you mean that you do not collect £100 a year which you are entitled to?-I say that when we have charged every tenant under us the full amount of scattald charges, we are £100 short of the rent under the lease, as our books will show.

10,098. Is that loss upon the rents and scattald charges, or upon the scattald charges only?-It is upon the rents and the scattald united. In short, we charge the tenants £1000 for rent and scattald charges, and we pay Major Cameron £1100.

10,099. The kelp is gathered by the women upon these shores and burned by them, and bought by you at so much per ton?-Yes.

10,100. Is the settlement for the kelp generally managed by way of accounts in your books in each woman's name?-No. They generally settled with at the time when they bring the kelp. We may have supplied them with meal or other necessaries while they were preparing the kelp, but as soon as they have prepared the settlement is at once made.

10,101. These supplies are entered in a ledger account under the woman's name during the time the kelp is being prepared?-Yes.

10,102. And then the amount of kelp is entered at the close of that account as settling it?-Yes.

10,103. How many women are so employed?-Perhaps about 120 or 130. I think we have made about 40 tons of kelp from Unst, but we get a good deal from Yell too I think about 20 tons.

10,104. Does the number of women you have given include those in Yell?-No; I think there may be about that number in Unst.

10,105. What price per cwt. do you pay for the kelp?-It is 4s. this year.

10,106. Is it the same price, whether paid in goods or in cash?- There used to be a practice of giving from 4d. to 6d. less in cash than in goods. The reason for that was, that the price allowed was generally the extreme value of the article; but for the last two years we have got 5s. per ton more for kelp, and we have made no difference on the price to the women whether it was taken in cash or in goods. That was the case more especially last year. Almost all that we got from Yell was paid in cash, and paid at the same rate of 4s.

10,107. Did the women take the price in cash or in goods?-They took it almost all in goods, except those from Yell. They could only come over at times when they had about a ton or two ready, and they took back what goods they wanted, and the balance in cash.

10,108. How do you arrange with your beach boys?-We have one man engaged who cures for us by the ton. He finds the hands; we do not employ them.

10,109. You do all your curing by contract?-Yes.

10,110. And you have nothing to do with the payment of the persons employed at it?-I often pay them when the man who has the contract gives me an order to pay. He gives them a line to me to pay them so much and I do so.

10,111. Is that payment made at the shop at Uyea Sound?-Yes,

10,112. Is it made in goods or in cash?-It is just as the case may be. Of course, if the man has taken anything it is deducted; but if he has not taken anything he gets his cash.

10,113. Have the people who are employed in the curing got accounts in your books in their own names?-Yes.

10,114. Do you mean the men employed under the contractor?- Yes; they have their own accounts.

10,115. Do you know how much wages they receive from the contractor?-Not until he gives me an order at the end of the season, and then they are paid. They are paid as soon as the work is over.

10,116. But during the season they are running an account in your books and getting supplies?-Yes, but to as limited an extent as possible. We don't like to give them goods; we rather like to give them money at the end of the season, because if we are liberal in that way, they generally overdraw their accounts.

10,117. But the line you speak of, which you receive from the contractor, is only given at the end of the season?-Yes.

10,118. He does not give them lines when they want supplies?- No.

10,119. Why does he not pay them himself?-At one time, some years ago, I used to give the curer cash to pay his men; but I found I was minus any advances I had given to them in the course of the season, because they did not come back to square up when they got their cash, and yet it was necessary for me to give them some things in order to let the work go on.

10,120. Could you not leave it to the contractor to make these advances?-It is quite optional. There is nothing compulsory in this arrangement at all.

10,121. The men don't need to come to your shop for the advances unless they like?-Not at all. I don't want them; I would as soon pay them in money as goods.

10,122. And the contractor could do so?-Yes. He does so in some cases. I suppose those who bring orders to me are those who want it in that way. Very likely the contractor pays some that I never see at all.

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10,123. Do you suppose that the whole payments he makes are not made through you?-I don't know that they are. There is no arrangement to that effect.

10,124. What is the contract price per ton for curing?-16s., and we supply the implements and materials, and the beach. That is just for his work, putting them from the shores to the beach; and we take them from there to the shipping port.

10,125. In settling with your fishermen, what allowance do you make for the cost of curing the fish per ton of dry fish?-We deduct that from the price we have got for the fish, in estimating what we are to pay our fishermen. That sum includes expense of curing, cost of salt and materials, and removing the fish to the port

where they are to be delivered.

10,126. What other deductions do you make before fixing the sum that is to be divided between you and the fishermen?-We generally make no other deductions. We expect that the £3 should cover everything but I don't know that it does so now, because wages are much higher than they used to be.

10,127. What was the current price paid to fishermen here last year?-8s.

10,128. What was the price of dry fish per ton?-The current price was £23.

10,129. Deducting £3, that would leave £20: was that the sum on which you calculated the division between you and the fishermen?-Yes.

10,130. How do you calculate the price for the green fish?-We calculate 21/4 cwt. of green fish for 1 cwt. dry.

10,131. That would only be 18s. per cwt?-Yes; but we give skipper's fees, and a great deal of perquisites to the crew, which will come to another shilling. The men have lines of their own, and the skipper always gets a fee.

10,132. Then the 2s. extra is intended to cover that?-Yes, and our profit.

10,133. Do you allow yourselves a commission?-Yes; and I think we require it. The hire we take for the boat never covers the price of the boat. I may say that, in my experience, boats which originally cost £20 stand us in £32 when they are worn out, after we have got credit for all the hires charged on them. There is therefore a considerable loss on boats. The hire cannot nearly meet current expenses, much less pay for the original price.

10,134. How do you mean that the boat stood you in £32?-I give sails every second year, and a new sail costs about £2, 10s. Then there is the carpenter's work every year in repairing the boat, and there are oars and everything to be kept up. Taking these things into consideration, the result of the debtor and creditor account of some our boats was that they cost £20 originally, and when worn out they had cost £32.

10,135. What was the hire of these boats?-48s. a year-8s. a man. That was credited to the boat.

10,136. What is the life of a boat?-It is sometimes only a year.

10,137. But that is when she is lost?-No; we sometimes build what appears to be a very good boat, and the carpenter says she is first-class; but when the fishermen take her to sea they find she is very bad, and they throw her on our hands, and we cannot use her.

10,138. Does that often happen?-Very often.

10,139. Then the hiring of boats is a very unprofitable business?- It is; indeed I should be very glad if the fishermen would buy their own boats; and if the Government would assist them in that, it would be a very good thing. The life of a good boat may be about twelve years.

10,140. Is it not an exceptional case where the boat is thrown up at the end of the year?-No, it is very common at the end of one year or two years.

10,141. But when a boat is a good one at first, and pleases the fishermen, she is calculated to last for twelve years?-Yes, and she may last a little longer with increased repairs.

10,142. And the calculation that a boat when worn out costs you £32 is based upon the supposition that she does last for about that period?-Yes; but the £32 is perhaps an exceptional case: that was the highest I ever had in my experience.

10,143. Is the current price of fish according to which you pay your men ascertained by communication with other merchants in Shetland, or is it the actual price, which you get upon your own sales?-There is generally a communication among the curers as to what they think should be the price. Every man states his own opinion freely.

10,144. And communicates the amount of his own sales to his neighbours?-I don't know that he communicates his sales, but he states his idea with regard, to what the price should be.

10,145. Do you sell mostly in this country, or in Spain?-It is chiefly ling that we sell, and they go to the west of Scotland and Ireland. We ship them direct to the Clyde, to merchants in Glasgow and Greenock.

10,146. Have you ever shipped any to Spain?-No.

10,147. Do you know whether the fish shipped there are picked fish?-I understand they are all picked.

10,148. Is a higher price obtained for them than for those sold in this country?-I suppose so; it is chiefly cod that are sent there.

10,149. The men, I understand, have nothing to with fixing the current price of fish?-No.

10,150. Do they sometimes complain that they have not?-I have offered to the fishermen, not since Spence & Co. commenced, but I did repeatedly before, to cure for them at 5 per cent., and furnish everything.

10,151. Were they to sell the fish themselves?-I was to act as their salesman, and disclose all to them if they would give me 5 per cent.

10,152. But they did not agree to that?-No; they thought the safer way was to go on as we had been doing. The fish-curers don't have that love and affection for one another which was described in the evidence in Edinburgh. There is plenty of opposition among them.

10,153. Except at the time when they are fixing the current price?-I cannot say that there is any better agreement then. I cannot agree at all with that part of the evidence which was given before.

10,154. But you always do agree about that to a certain extent?- No; we sometimes do not agree, and we have angry disputations in our letters. We say the price should be a certain thing in our opinion, and Spence & Co. have not agreed with all the fish-curers yet, for we give 10s. per 100 cwts. as an encouragement or bounty, and something to help the men to pay things they have in company at the station; but none of the other curers have given that, and they have been very hard upon us about it. We have given 2s. per. ton more for every ton of green fish we have received than any other curer in Shetland, so that we don't always agree.

10,155. Will you give me a note of your fish sales last year, and the prices?-I will do so privately. [Hands them in.]

10,156. You have now produced to me the lease between Major Cameron and your firm for twelve years up till Martinmas 1880: are all the stipulations about improvements contained in it?-Yes; they are to be, pointed out specially from year to year, but the arrangement is, that there is to be so much expended every year upon improvements.

10,157. But were the regulations for the tenantry separate from this lease and issued to them?-No; the rules and regulations for the sub-tenants are appended to the lease.

10,158. Were these made known to the tenants?-Yes; they were given to them in a different form. They are amended rules to those which were first issued by Mr. Walker.

10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they comply with them, and we can remove them at any time.

10,160. What is the length of the holdings of these who comply with these regulations?-It is the same as our own lease, twelve years from 1868.

10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these [Page 247] regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and rotation of cropping.

10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.

10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in any case.

10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to me.

10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease, either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there is anything of that sort in it.

10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of the tenants that they are bound to do so?-No.

10,167. You have told them that they are under no such obligation?-Yes.

10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to you?-They do.

10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell so well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at Uyea Sound as we did in any season before the company commenced.

10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for shop goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do so.

10,171. Do you think that having this lease is a facility to you in carrying on your business?-I rather think that in one sense it is the reverse, because at first it was so unpopular among the tenants, in consequence of dividing the farms in the first instance, and setting them on to work and cultivate and drain and clear the ground of stones, and to introduce a rotation of cropping, that it placed us as traders in the island to a great disadvantage, and created an unhappy feeling between the tenants and ourselves. I can say that for the last four years, I have spent about one-thirteenth of my time among them, just going from tenant to tenant three or four times every year, in the south parish.

10,172. Over what portion of the island does this lease extend?-It includes nearly one-half of the island. I have been compelled in some cases to use hard measures with the tenants to get them to alter the crop which they had put in, and to bring the land into rotation. That looked a very severe thing to them; but we stood between two fires, as it were.

10,173. You think it would be profitable for them in the end?-I have no doubt it will, and a good many of them are seeing that now.

10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a power of ejecting them?-Of course it does.

10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.

10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to deal with another party or to fish for him in consequence?-That may be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the lease gives us it stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and what could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether, and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to see that day.

10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants, except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these rules and regulations?-Yes.

10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.

10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?- None.

10,180. You spoke of a bounty of 2s. per ton which you allowed your fishermen at settlement: does that not correspond with the present which is made at settlement at other places by way of drinking money?-They say in other places that they give nothing of that kind, but it would correspond with that.

10,181. Do you give the men anything besides as a gratuity at settling time?-No; we give nothing in the way of drink money. They get what is called a midsummer bottle: that is an old custom, and it still continues among all the fishermen.

10,182. Have you had a good deal to do in the hosiery trade?- Yes, I have bought a good deal of it.

10,183. I understand you buy a quantity of worsted from the spinners in Unst and sell it south?-Yes; I generally sell it in Lerwick.

10,184. At what rates do you generally buy the worsted?-We never like to buy anything coarser than we can give 3d. per cut for.

10,185. The weight of that, I suppose, varies?-The weight of what we give 3d. per cut for would be about 6 cuts to the ounce.

10,186. That would be 24s. per lb.?-Yes; but the number of ounces is not a criterion, because the less the weight the higher the price. We have given as high as 7d. per cut for worsted, and that should weigh 14 cuts of 100 threads to the ounce. That would be 8s. 2d. per ounce, or more than £7 per lb.

10,187. Is not that a very high price?-Yes; but we would give cash for any amount of that kind of worsted we could get, or for worsted at 6d. for 12 cuts to the ounce, but very few can spin that. It is a very fine thread.

10,188. Have you known much worsted sold at the rate of £7, 12s. per lb.?-No, not very much, because there are very few who can spin it so fine. It is just like a cobweb.

10,189. What quantity of worsted of that sort would it take to make a shawl of the ordinary size? About 40 cuts?-That would be a small shawl. I have put as high as 70 cuts of that fine worsted into a shawl; but that was a large shawl. The usual size is 25 to 30 scores, made out of 3d. worsted.

10,190. The score refers to the size of the shawl?-Yes; twenty scores is twenty threads or twenty stitches of the needle across from side to side.

10,191. Is the size of the shawl generally measured by the score or by the yard?-It is generally measured by the score when the girl commences to knit it.

10,192. Then a shawl of that size would take 40 cuts of that fine worsted?-No; a 21/4 yard shawl would take 60 cuts of that fine worsted.

10,193. The worsted of such a shawl would cost £1, 15s?-Yes.

10,194. Can you give me any idea what the knitting of that shawl is generally put in at?-The knitting of shawl of that kind should be 25s. to 30s.

10,195. Are these shawls made in Unst?-Yes; I have got a shawl made in Unst that cost £4, and some that cost £3, and between £3 and £4.

10,196. Would the knitting cost as much in Lerwick?-I don't know. I generally think, as a rule, that the knitter ought to get as much for her work as the price of the worsted.

10,197. But it is somewhat less than the price of the worsted in these fine shawls?-Yes.

10,198. Suppose a shawl of which the worsted cost you 35s. and the knitting 25s.-that is £3 altogether: what would that be invoiced for to the merchant in the south?-Perhaps I am not able to give very good information upon that point, because I have always found these shawls to be a part of my stock which it was very difficult to dispose of.

10,199. Do you mean the fine shawls?-No. I have generally got shawls of that sort made upon an order from gentlemen who happen to come down here, and I usually charge them the cost of the work and dressing, and so on; but I have found it a very difficult thing to sell hosiery.

10,200. Is the 25s. which the knitter gets paid to her in money or in goods?-Almost always in goods.

10,201. And you have been calculating now upon the footing that that price was to be paid in goods?-Yes; but if I got an order for the shawl, I would not care whether it was to be paid for in goods or in cash.

[Page 248]

10,202. That is because if you had got the order you would receive a cash payment?-Yes.

10,203. Whereas, if you were selling it to a merchant, you might have to take goods from him for the value?-It is not exactly that, but I might not get it sold at all. My object in dealing in hosiery is more to oblige my customers than because it is an article on which make a profit. A great bulk of the shawls which sell for about 30s. are made from 3d. worsted. That would be 7s. 6d. for the worsted, and the knitting would be 8s. or 9s. in goods, then there would be 6d. for dressing, and that would be about the cost of an ordinary shawl.

10,204. How much would that sell for in the market?-I don't know. I have tried most of the best hosiers who deal in shawls, and I always lost them.

10,205. Do you invoice shawls to Edinburgh?-Yes, pretty often; but I tried to get out of it because we lost a good deal by it. I suppose these wholesale buyers in the south do their largest trade with the merchants in Lerwick, and they don't like to buy from the country people in case it might operate against their own interests.*

*Mr. Sandison afterwards wrote the following letter in supplement of his evidence:-

'I much regret you could not make your examination in Unst more exhaustive.

'Witnesses were asked the effects of the present system on the morals of the people. I am of opinion their morals will compare very favourably with any other county in Scotland; and I will say for my countrymen, that for intelligence and common sense they are superior to many of the same class elsewhere.

'From careful observation and considerable experience, I have come to think that the increase of small shops acts injuriously on the poorest of the people, leading to the practice of deceit between man and wife, mother and child, as well as between class and class. Many families of the poor and indebted fishermen sell their farm produce, butter, eggs, etc., and even meal and corn, out of their own crop, to some of these small shops for trifling luxuries of no real benefit; and, worst of all, most of these small shops sell spirits surreptitiously, it is believed, to a greater extent than the licensed dealer. As a rule, in my experience, the man who sells his produce in quantity to the large buyer or fish-curer is independent, and has cash in hand and bank; while the man who dribbles away his produce through these shops, only giving his summer fish to the fish-curer, is in debt and poverty. While one man can take up £4 to £6 for the one article of butter, in cash at settlement, the other, with as many milch cows, has nothing. The monopoly said to exist here has not reduced these shops; there are fourteen shops in Unst.

'The interests of the small dealer is <only one,-his own>. The interests of the fish-curer and larger dealer is the people's as much as his own, he must supply all their necessary wants, pay rents, and carry them through with food, at least in unsuccessful seasons; their independence is his gain, their poverty his ruin, by incurring debts, in many cases never paid. This is bad; but in my opinion it is not this, nor barter, call it truck if you like, that has kept Shetland so far behind, but the utter neglect of the soil, and slovenly farming, for the last 100 years. I don't think 100 acres have been added to the cultivated ground by tenant crofters, while in that time the population has increased more than one-third; in place of adding, I am sorry to say that in many cases there has been a most destructive system of reducing going on, by delving down hill for ages until the tops of many fields are wasted to the rock. I have seen places where considerable extents was lost in this way; and for draining and clearing out stones, that was unthought of. For this state of matters, both proprietors and tenants are to blame. Proprietors, in my opinion, have been far too careless of their poperty, not heeding how the crofter farmed, if the rent was paid; and the naturally indolent man reduced more so, by neglecting to increase and improve his farm during the long winter, when he could do little else. Then the breeding and rearing of cattle has been utterly neglected by the small tenants: we have made a right start with that in this island now.

'In all my experience I find the best farmer (I speak of the crofters) is never the worst fisher, and is generally out of debt; while the bad and slovenly farmer, though an extra good fisherman, often falls behind, indeed generally so. Of late I have come to the conclusion that the time spent at the winter fishing is a loss to the crofter, as I do think he can be more profitably employed on his farm, at least until he puts it in proper order. Not to enlarge, I consider the land question a more serious one than the truck for Shetland. Get our crofter fishermen to feel and take an interest in the soil they cultivate; induce them to habits of constant activity on their land, when not fully employed at fishing; get them, by whatever way, to take a pleasure in rendering the waste places of their farm productive of food for man and beast; give them better houses; let them have every reasonable encouragement from their proprietors, with patient continuous oversight by those competent to give direction and advice: I would hope for more from this than all the 'Truck Acts' in the world.

'In place of putting shackles on the fish-curers, who are trying to develop that one branch of our industry, they ought to be encouraged. Much capital is invested in it; and when as much has been done to develop the land as is being done to develop the deep sea, I am sure we will require no 'Truck Act.'

'I would like to say a word on the Rev. Mr. Smith's evidence to price and quality of the goods sold in Unst, but may take another time for that: enough to say just now, that he has yet to try mine.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER JOHNSTON, examined.

10,206. You are registrar of this parish, and you live at Balliasta?-Yes.

10,207. You were formerly a fisherman, and you are acquainted with the way in which the fishing trade is carried on?-Yes. I was acquainted with it when I was at the fishing. It is ten years ago since I left it.

10,208. When you were a fisherman, was there liberty for every man to fish to any one he liked to engage with?-Yes.

10,209. Was there no restriction at all?-No.

10,210. What estate did you live upon?-On the estate of Buness.

10,211. No one there was bound to fish for his landlord or tacksman?-No. When the late Mr. Edmonstone had the fishing himself, I fished for him.

10,212. Were you bound to fish for him?-I was willing to fish for him in preference to any other, because he was my landlord.

10,213. But were you bound to fish for him?-No, he did not hold me bound.

10,214. Might you have engaged to fish for any one else, without any fear of being turned out of your farm?-I might.

10,215. Was that generally the case throughout the country?-I believe it was, so far as I can remember. What it was long before that I don't know.

10,216. You are not engaged in fishing now, or in any business?- No. I have a farm from Mr. Edmonstone.

10,217. Do you deal at the shop at Haroldswick or Balta Sound?- I just deal anywhere I find convenient, because I pay in ready money.

10,218. You don't keep an account?-No.

10,219. Do you prefer that way of dealing?-I do.

10,220. Do you get better bargains in that way?-It may be that there is not much difference, but still have the privilege of choosing where I am to deal.

10,221. Where do you deal in your ready-money transactions?- Chiefly with Spence & Co. at Balta Sound.

10,222. What do you pay there for meal?-I am not, in the way of buying meal. I get it from my own farm.

10,223. What do you pay there for soft goods?-I have not had any lately.

10,224. Do you go to Lerwick for them?-No; but sometimes I send to Lerwick for some tea and other articles.

10,225. Why do you not get your tea from Spence & Co?-I get it sometimes from them, and sometimes from others.

10,226. Why do you send so far as Lerwick for it?-Because we might get it a little cheaper there. We can get very good tea at Lerwick for 2s. 6d. a lb., while the cheapest here is about 3s. or 2s. 8d.

10,227. Is the 2s. 6d. tea that you get in Lerwick as good as the 3s. tea which you get here, or better?-I think it is much about the same.

10,228. Is there anything else you send to Lerwick for?-No.

10,229. What else do you get from Spence & Co.?-Any small thing I require-principally tobacco. I get twist tobacco for 31/2d. an ounce.

10,230. What else do you get?-Nothing worth mentioning.

10,231. Then you buy nothing from Spence & Co. that is worth mentioning except tea and tobacco?-I sometimes buy a little sugar. It is fine white sugar at 6d. a lb. I have also bought sugar from Mr. William Johnston. It was of the same price and quality. I have never got it from Lerwick.

[Page 249]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM GILBERT MOUAT, examined.

10,232. You are a partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,233. You manage their business at Baltasound along with Mr. Thomson?-Yes.

10,234. You were in business on your own account for a good many years before the formation of that company?-Yes, for eighteen years at Baltasound. I was not extensively in the fishing then, but I had a shop.

10,235. Were you present during the examination of Mr. Sandison?-Yes.

10,236. Do you concur generally in what he said?-Yes; I don't think I could correct or add anything to it, for I think he has given just such a statement as I would have given myself.

10,237. Do you entertain the same opinion about the possibility of an improved mode of conducting business here?-I do.

10,238. You have arrived at the same conclusion with regard to the expediency of a monthly pay if it could be introduced?-Yes; fortnightly or monthly.

10,239. You settle with the fishermen at Baltasound?-Yes; I have settled with the greater number of them there for the last four years.

10,240. In 1867, before the formation of the firm, had you fishermen in your own employment here?-Yes.

10,241. Before 1868 Mr. John Spence carried on business at Haroldswick as a fish-curer?-Yes.

10,242. And, I understand, the accounts of both the Haroldswick fishermen and the Baltasound fishermen are now kept in your books at Baltasound?-Yes. They are transferred from what is called the Haroldswick fisherman's ledger to the general ledger. We enter the amount of advances at Haroldswick into the general fishing ledger, and give the men credit in that ledger for the amount of their fishings.

10,243. Does that general fishing ledger show the amount of balances due at the beginning of each year as well as at the end?- Yes. [Produces fisherman's ledger.]

10,244. Are the shop accounts entered in this book in full, or is the summation merely transferred from another book?-These accounts [showing] are just taken from what we call the fisherman's ledger at Haroldswick, containing the fishermen's accounts for the season.

10,245. How do you do with the fishermen who deal in the shop at Baltasound?-We have a shop ledger in which the details of their transactions are entered. Here [showing], and for eighteen pages back, you will find the Baltasound fishermen. Then here [showing] is the account for the rent, which we pay for the men to the Earl of Zetland. I collect Lord Zetland's rents here for Messrs. George and Arthur James Hay, the factors, and remit them to them when collected.

10,246. Have you the shop ledger?-Yes. [Produces it.]

10,247. Each fisherman has his account separately kept in it?- Yes.

10,248. I suppose few of them care to keep passbooks?-Some of them keep pass-books over the whole season, but others of them do not. Here [showing account in shop ledger] is a sample of the transactions for this season. The amount of that account is carried into the ledger, but the credits due to the man do not appear in the shop ledger.

10,249. Do you generally find the men applying to you for cash early in the year, before the fishing begins?-Not often. If they are requiring a few shillings they may ask for it, and get it, but I cannot say that they ever ask for much.

10,250. I see here an entry on January 5, 'To biscuit, 1s. 2d.:' what quantity of biscuit would that be?-I suppose it would be 4 lbs. of what are called cabin biscuit.

10,251. 'Tobacco, 1s. 1d?' -That would be a 1/4 lb. at 31/2d. an ounce and the man got 1d. off by taking a quantity.

10,252. 'Tea, 11d.,:' is that the best quality of tea?-Yes. We have cheaper tea than that at 8d. and 10d.

10,253. Are Shetland people, I understand, are very particular about their tea?-Yes; and they are very good judges of it.

10,254. I see another entry on October, 28 ' To meal, 2s. 10d.?'- That would be 16 lbs., or half a lispund.

10,255. On October 5 the meal was 5s, 9d., so that there had been a fall between that date and October 28?-Yes. There is often a rise and fall in the price of meal.

10,256. Where do you get your meal?-Generally from Aberdeen, from Glenny & Cruickshank, and Mr. Mess, and Mr. Walker, and Mr. Tulloch, all in Aberdeen. We generally get our flour from Messrs. Tod, Stockbridge.

10,257. I see an entry, 'To meal per meal-book:' is that a separate book which you keep for meal?-Yes; it is a book we generally keep in the cellar, where the meal is weighed out. The meal is marked there at the time the people get it, and then it is entered as a whole in the ledger.

10,258. That is done to save repetition of entries in the lodger?- Yes. This [showing] is one of the accounts referred to by Mr. Sandison, kept by six men on the station as a company, and it is in that account that we give them credit for 2s. per 20 weighs. We put it to their credit there, and then charge the men only for the balance in their accounts.

10,259. How is that credited in their account?-It has not been done yet. The crew have not settled.

10,260. But how would it be entered?-Just for an allowance.

10,261. You take the whole quantity of fish delivered, and calculate what the allowance is upon that?-Yes; on the quantities delivered of cod, tusk, and ling. We don't allow it upon the saith.

10,262. Is the saith an inferior item in the season's fishing?-It has been rather low for some years back until this year, but it has been rather better.

10,263. I see, under January 12, in Andrew Mouat's account, 'Paraffin oil, 5d.' How much oil was that?-About 51/2 gills, I suppose.

10,264. What is the selling price of paraffin oil at your store?-2s. a gallon.

10,265. How many gills are in a gallon?-32.

10,266. So that the price which Mouat paid for his oil was a little more than 2s. 6d. a gallon?- Yes, but the bottles are not all alike. Some may hold 6 gills, and some only 51/2. We generally fill the bottle for 5d. when they bring it to us.

10,267. Where do you get your paraffin oil?-From Young's Paraffin Light Co.

10,268. Do you generally import it once a year or so in the beginning of winter?-No; we generally get 1 or 2 or 3 casks by the steamer now and then, as we require it.

10,269. When did you last get a supply of oil from that company?-I don't know if we had any last season at all; because we got 3 or 4 casks early in the spring, which served us throughout the season.

10,270. What was the price of it?-I think the last we bought from Young & Co. was 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d.-I think 1s. 5d. per gallon; but then there is double freight to pay on it.

10,271. Where do Young & Co. deliver it?-At Granton.

10,272. What is the freight from there?-I think it is nearly 2d. per gallon; but we have had the oil much dearer from Young & Co. than 1s. 5d.

10,273. Have you ever got any from Rowatt & Son?-We have had oil from a person named Williamson, but not direct. I think the last we got from him was through an agent in Leith.

10,274. Where is Williamson's place?-I cannot say; only saw the name on the cask. We got it from Mr. J.B. Leask.

10,275. Do either of these books which you have produced contain the accounts of persons employed in your curing business?-Yes.

10,276. Do you contract for curing at Baltasound [Page 250] and Haroldswick?-No; we employ the people ourselves; and their accounts are entered generally in the Baltasound book.

10,277. I see an account of Thomas Mouat, beach boy, February 17, 1870, 'To Baltasound shop account £2, 0s. 3d., by fee £1, 10s., by balance to account, 10s. 3d.,' which is carried to next account, and he is charged 6d of interest on it. Then November 17, 'To Baltasound shop account £1, 10s. 8d., by beach fee £1, 15s., by balance to account 6s. 5d.' Has he been working for you this year?-No.

10,278. Has that balance of 6s. 5d. been settled?-No.

10,279. Where is the boy now?-He is working as a blacksmith.

10,280. Do you charge these boys interest when they are in debt?-Yes, we have done so; but only for the last two years.

10,281. Has that been with the view of reducing their balance?-It will rather increase them.

10,282. But has it been done in order to lead them to incur less debt?-I wish it would; but in many cases I believe they cannot help themselves. It is not their wish to incur debt

10,283. Does it generally happen that a beach boy is in your debt at the end of the season?-Not generally.

10,284. I see that John Miller has a balance of 4s. against him in 1870, and a balance of 9d. to get in 1871?-Yes.

10,285. Robert Gardiner has a balance of £1, 19s., against him in 1870. Has he not settled that yet?-No; he is in Glasgow.

10,286. Thomas Abernethy, beach boy, got a fee of £2. 10s., and 15s. for drying fish for 30 days, and he had to receive a balance of 1s. 01/2d. at the end of the year?-Yes.

10,287. John Jamieson, beach boy, had a beach fee of £2, 5s., 39 days drying fish at 5d.-16s. 3d. and there is a balance of 11s. 11d. against him upon his shop account?-Yes.

10,288. Nicol Thomson had a beach fee of £1, and he had a balance of 5s. 3d. against him for 1870, and has since got supplies to the amount of 5s. 61/2d?-Yes. He was only employed for part of the season.

10,289. Was he working for you last year?-No.

10,290. John Harrison has a balance in his favour of 2s. 101/2d.?- Yes.

10,291. Archibald Thomson, in 1870, had a balance against him of 17s. He settled again the day before yesterday, and got a balance in cash of £2, 6s. 31/2 d?-Yes. He was a fisherman last year. 10,292. He had £9, 1s. to get for his fish?-Yes; and he had credit with another boat. He went with one boat for a time in place of another man who was laid up.

10,293. In the account of Charles Sandison, fish-curer, his shop account at Uyea Sound was £3, 2s. 11d. in 1870, and £3, 11s. 101/2d. at Baltasound, and there also a balance of rent of 11s. 6d. charged against him. The balance against him at November 12, 1869, and carried to new account, is £4, 5s. 31/2d. The interest on that is 4s. 3d., and the balance against him on March 18, 1871, was £9, 8s. 51/2d.?-Yes.

10,294. He has since put in £6, 3s. 9d. and £1 to his credit, the first being the price of a cow, and the other a payment made by his son, or carried from his son's account into his?-Yes, by his order.

10,295. That was done with the view of reducing his debt?-Yes; the son was living with the father, and it was done to reduce his father's debt.

10,296. This account has not been settled yet?-No, and this year's rent has not been debited to the account. We have not yet taken it out of the land ledger.

10,297. Has he been working for you?-No. He is an old man, and I think his son intends to take the farm, and to join him.

10,298. There is £4, 12s. 6d. of rent debited to him in 1870. To whom was that rent payable?-To Spence & Co. That is one of the farms included in their lease.

10,299. In the account of Thomas Peterson he is credited with a beach fee of £5, and he had a balance against him in 1869 in 6s. 101/2d. The balance in his favour at settling in 1871 was 1s. 41/2d., but in that year he had been fishing, not regularly, but occasionally, with certain boats?-Yes. He has been fishing regularly this year, but his account is not settled yet.

10,300. This account [showing] contains the total beach fees paid by you in 1869 and 1870, being £91, 12s. 8d. in 1869 and £115, 12s. 8d. in 1870?-Yes.

10,301. What are the entries on page 251?-That is a page which I am using as a cash-book in settling up with the men at the present settlement.

10,302. It shows the amount paid in cash to each man?-Yes.

10,303. The total is £162, 10s. 21/2d., which been paid to thirty-two men?-Yes.

10,304. That does not show the men whose balances were the other way?-No.

10,305. Would there be a larger number whose balances were the other way?-There would be great deal more money out, whether the number of men were larger or not.

10,306. Have you any dealings in hosiery at your shop?-We do very little in that way.

10,307. When you do deal with a woman for hosiery, do you open an account in her name?-Sometimes. Of course if she gets worsted from our shop we have to debit her with it, and see that she returns it.

10,308. Does she generally take out goods for the amount of her knitting?-Sometimes.

10 309. Have you a special book for these accounts?-No, not now.

10,310. Did you use to have a woman's book for them?-Yes; we had a small ledger when we commenced. It was not exactly a woman's book, but the hosiery accounts were generally kept in it.

10,311. Did it contain accounts for butter and eggs?-No; we did not keep accounts for them. Of course if a man comes in with 16 or 20 or 30 or 40 lbs. of butter, that goes to his credit if he wishes it to be settled for in that way.

10,312. You do not take any share in the management of the shop at Haroldswick?-I sometimes take a little.

10,313. I have been told to-day that Mrs. Spence's hosiery purchases are settled for with goods got in the shop there?-Yes.

10,314. Are Mrs. Spence's purchases of hosiery and worsted made by her on account of the firm?-No. She generally sells for herself what hosiery she buys.

10,315. Then, when the hosiery is paid for by means of goods supplied from the shop at Haroldswick, how does that enter the books of the firm?-She is just debited with the amount paid to so and so.

10,316. Are these goods debited to her at cost price?-No, at retail price.

10,317. And the firm has no connection with the purchase or sale of that hosiery?-No.

10,318. Where do you get your supplies of tea?-We get them from different places.

10,319. Do you get any from R. & C. Robertson, Lerwick?-No, I don't think we have got 20 lbs. of tea from them since we commenced business in 1868. We get our tea from Aberdeen, Glasgow, and London.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,320. You are a fisherman at Snarravoe, and hold a bit of land on Lord Zetland's property?-Yes.

10,321. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Mr. Mouat, the commissioner for Mr. Hay, and Mr. Hay is the commissioner for the Earl.

10,322. Does Mr. Mouat enter the rent in your account?-Yes.

10,323. Do you fish for Spence & Co?-Yes. I have fished for them since they became a company, and before that I fished for Hay & Co.

[Page 251]

10,324. Are you quite at liberty to fish for any person you please?-I suppose I am.

10,325. And to deal at any shop you please?-Yes.

10,326. Do you generally deal in Spence & Co.'s shop?-Yes, because I find I am as well served there as I would be at any other place. 10.327. Snarravoe is in the south of the island, and you go to the shop at Uyeasound?-Yes.

10,328. Is that the nearest shop to you?-There are some small shops nearer, but I find that I am as well served at that shop as I would be at any other shop I could go to. I have very little dealings in any other shop.

10,329. Do you keep a pass-book?-I had a passbook at one time, but it was not kept regularly, and I don't have one now. I found that the keeping of it made very little difference.

10,330. Were you ever employed in fishing at a fixed price for the whole fish taken during the season?-Yes; but we were generally paid it little more than the fixed price.

10,331. When were you engaged in that way?-About a year or two years ago by Spence & Co. We engaged at 7s., and we were paid it few pence more-I think 3d. more.

10,332. Did you ask for that?-No; they gave it freely, because the fish turned out a little better than they expected at the time when we made the engagement for the fishing.

10,333. If they had turned out a little worse, would the men have taken less for their fish?-No doubt they would have looked for their bargain; but it would have been just in them to have taken it little less in that case, as well as to get a little more when the price was high.

10,334. Do you think the men in this district would be content to have a bargain of that sort as a rule?-I don't know; because sometimes the markets go up, and the men may get a little more for their fish if the price is settled at the end of the season.

10,335. Therefore you think it is better to have the price fixed at the end of the season, when you see how the markets have turned out?-Sometimes it would be.

10,336. But if the markets were to fall towards the end of the year, might the fisherman not gain something if he had engaged at a fixed price?-He would; and that was the kind of engagements we had in the herring fishing in Hay & Co.'s time.

10,337. Have you gone to the herring fishing?-Yes, but we were always paid a little more than we agreed for. We were paid 10s. or 11s., or more, per cran.

10,338. Were you always successful at it?-Only sometimes. That fishing has been a failure for the last few years.

10,339. But you had no arrangement there except to get so much per cran for all the herrings you took?-That was all.

10,340. Were you running an account in the shop while the fishing was going on?-Yes.

10,341. Don't you think you would be better off to have your money paid down once a month or so, as the fish are delivered, and be able to pay for your purchases as you get them?-I don't know. I suppose the goods are all the same price, whether I pay for them when I get them or not.

10,342. Don't you think you would be able to buy your goods cheaper if you could pay for them at the time?-I don't know.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.

10,343. Are you a fisherman at Westing?-I was formerly a fisherman, but it is about twenty years ago since I gave it up. I am now curing fish for Messrs. Spence & Co. at Westing.

10,344. Do you cure by contract?-Yes. I get 10s. per ton of dry fish for my trouble.

10,345. Do you employ a number of beach boys and men in the curing?-Yes; about eight. They get fees varying from 30s. up to above

10,346. Do you keep a book in which you enter the payments you make to them?-No. I do not keep any book except a pass-book, in which I enter the fish that are delivered to me.

10,347. Are the wages of these boys paid by you?-Not wholly by me, but I pay them in part.

10,348. But you are their employer, and are liable to them for their wages?-Yes.

10,349. Do they take part of their wages in goods from the shop?-When they want them in that way, they get a line for their money to the shop.

10,350. Do you give them a line when they want goods?-Yes. I give them a line stating the amount that Mr. Sandison is to give them, either in goods or in money.

10,351. Is that entered against you in the books at Uyea Sound?- Yes.

10,352. Before paying them their wages, do you ascertain how much has been taken out by them in that way?-No.

10,353. Then how is the balance of their wages settled? Is it paid directly by the company?-It is paid by the company. I state in my line what fee I give them; and what they may give them over and above that I cannot tell. I am not responsible for that.

10,354. The line you give to the company does not state so much money, 5s. or 10s., that is to be allowed to them in goods or in cash, at a particular time, but it simply states the fee that you have agreed to give them at the end of the year?-It states the balance they have not actually got from me. If they want a certain amount at any time, I give them a line; or if they ask the money from me, then I give it to them, and they get a line to Mr. Sandison for the balance.

10,355. Do you sometimes give them money yourself?-Yes; when they ask for money they get it.

10,356. But more commonly they get a line to Mr. Sandison for goods?-More commonly for the greater share of it.

10,357. How many lines do they get in the course of a year? Is it one or more?-Generally one at the end of the season, when the fish have been dried.

10,358. Then how do they get their goods in the course of the season?-I cannot tell as to that, for I don't know.

10,359. But how does Mr. Sandison know how far to give them credit in the course of the season, before he gets the line from you, which you say you give him at the end?-Mr. Sandison no doubt knows what the amount of a beach fee will be; but I cannot say as to that. I am not responsible for any excess he may give them.

10,360. Then all you do with regard to these out-takes at the shop is to give the boy a line at the end of the season, telling Mr. Sandison what the agreed-on fee was?-Yes, and what balance I have not already paid him.

10,361. And in that line you make no mention of what he has got at the shop, because you don't know?-No.

10,362. In that way of working, is there not a risk of the boy asking more at the end of the season than is really due to him, and of your overpaying him?-Mr. Sandison might overpay him, but I could not.

10,363. Why?-Because I fix the fee, and I know what I have given him, and then I only give a line to Mr. Sandison to pay the balance.

10,364. But he might have got the whole amount of his fee in out-takes from Mr. Sandison, before you gave him payment in cash at the end of the season?-He might; but I am generally well acquainted with the boys, and have confidence in them that they will not run an account of that kind.

10,365. Suppose a boy were to come to you in July, and asked for 5s. in cash, would you be likely to give it to him?-Yes, I would give it.

10,366. Might it not happen that at that very time he had run up an account in the shop for £2 or £3?-If he did so, I would expect Mr. Sandison to make me acquainted with it.

[Page 252]

10,367. Did Mr. Sandison ever give you intimation that a particular boy was in debt to such an amount?-No.

10,368. So that these boys can get a cash advance from you, and credit at the shop at Uyea Sound at the same time?-Yes, if they choose. That might be done for a certain time, but I don't think it could go on very long without being known.

10,369. I suppose it is not very likely that you would give him much money?-He could get it all in money if he asked for it when the work is done, but not before.

10,370. But you would not pay him the money until you had ascertained the amount of his account at the shop?-I never asked that.

10,371. Is your work done about September?-Yes.

10,372. Suppose in September a boy were to come and ask you for the whole of his fee in money, would you pay it down to him?-I have done that.

10,373. Did he tell you that he had no account at the shop?-Yes; and that proved to be the case.

10,374. Has that happened often?-Not often. It has happened once with regard to the whole, and oftener with regard to a part.

10,375. Have you an account at Uyea Sound for supplies to yourself?-Yes.

10,376. The contract price of your curing is entered in that account against your supplies?-Yes; and I am paid the balance in cash.

10,377. And out of that balance you have to pay any balances that are due to the beach boys?-Yes.

10,378. How much money will you require to get at the end of the season, in order to settle with your beach boys?-Generally the money which the beach boys get from me is paid to them during the season.

10,379. When do you settle at the shop?-In December or January. I have not settled yet for last year.

10,380. Therefore you have not settled with the beach boys?-All the beach boys are all settled with in November.

10,381. How much money did you require last November in order to settle with them?-It is Mr. Sandison who settles with them at the end of the season, and I don't know how much money they had to get.

10,382. Do you generally have the same beach boys for some years in succession?-Yes. I have had some for six years, and some for shorter periods.

10,383. What proportion of your payment for curing do you get in money? Do you get most of it at the end of the season?- Sometimes. In some years we have to buy a good deal of meal and other things; but in a year such as the present, when we have had a good crop, I get the most of it in money. Besides, I can get money any time when I ask for it. I have never been refused it within the last twenty years.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HARPER, examined.

10,384. You are a fisherman to Messrs. Spence & Co. at Haroldswick?-Yes. I fish at Norwick, but the books are at Haroldswick.

10,385. Have you a bit of land from Spence & Co?-Yes.

10,386. You pay your rent to them, and deal with them at their shop at Haroldswick?-Yes, I get all my goods there.

10,387. Do you deal anywhere else?-No.

10,388. Why?-For want of money.

10,389. How do you want money?-Because I don't have it.

10,390. Have you had bad seasons?-I never was in debt before I came to Spence. & Co.

10,391. How did you get into debt with them?-From bad seasons in the first place, and from overpriced goods. Meal is over-priced, for one thing. My father has dealt twelve years with ready money; and I have seen the advantage he has got by it, and what I have lost.

10,392. Who is your father?-William Harper: he is a fisherman too; he has been master of a boat for about forty years to Mr. Spence.

10,393. How do you know that the meal is over-priced which you get from Messrs. Spence's shop?-The first meal I got from Spence & Co. was one boll, when I began to fish for them four years ago. My father got one half of the sack, and I got the other: I was charged 27s., and he was charged 24s. 6d.

10,394. Why was that?-I had nothing to give Spence & Co., but my father had ready money. That was in the spring before I commenced to fish.

10,395. You did not settle for the meal until the end of the year?- No.

10,396. Consequently they were long in getting their money from you?-Yes.

10,397. Was it not quite fair that they should get little more for lying out of their money all that time?-Yes; but 2s. 6d. was too much to charge for interest. That was only on meal, but I could make more profit on groceries and soft goods too.

10,398. Have you anything more to say about the meal?-That is the only thing I can recollect about it.

10,399. Have you bought your meal in the same way ever since?- Yes, until last year, when I had as much as could supply myself.

10,400. How many bolls had you to buy in the course of the year?-From 4 to 6.

10,401. Do you think you lost 2s. 6d. a boll on each of these?-I have no doubt I did, for want of ready money.

10,402. What have you to say about the other things?-That was somewhat further back, but at any rate I have been out of pocket with Spence & Co. ever since commenced with them. I was a skipper where I was before, and got a skipper's fee; but the fee which I got from Spence & Co. is not so much as I got formerly. I fished for John Johnston for 11 years. For the first two years I was only a young fellow, and was to be paid according to my fishing. After that, I got promise of £4 of skipper's fee, and when he saw I was getting on so well he always gave me £5 afterwards. Then I was forced-at least I believed I was forced, although I know now that I was not-to go to Spence & Co. from John Johnston, because he got his warning and could not keep me, but had to sell his boats or boat.

10,403. When was that?-In 1867 or 1868. He had two boats, and he sold the one I was fishing in.

10,404. How were you forced to leave him?-Because Spence & Co. got a tack from Mr walker, and I and all the north parish understood that I had to leave my employer and go to them.

10,405. Were you not told that you were quite at liberty to fish either to Spence & Co. or to any other person?-I was never told that until I heard Mr. Sandison say it. I don't think it was told in the north of the island; at least I was not told about it.

10,406. Were you ever told that you had to fish for Spence & Co?-That was rather hinted at.

10,407. Who hinted it?-Mr. Mouat. I was rather hot-tempered, and so was he, and when we were both hot he gave me a hint about that.

10,408. Was that in 1868?-I think so.

10,409. I suppose you conveyed the hint to a good number of others?-Yes. I sat down and wrote a letter to Mr. Walker, telling him what had been said; and I got an answer from him, saying I was to work according to the rules I had in my lease, and that no one could interfere.

10,410. Is there anything more you have to say?-There is nothing particular; but I may say that there are a good many skippers here, and a good many poor men, who will never be asked to come forward, and will never get the chance.

10,411. They may come forward if they like?-They don't care about coming forward, and there are some of them whose stories are far worse than mine.

[Page 253]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, CHARLES GRAY, examined.

10,412. You are a mason at Balliasta?-Yes.

10,413. Have you been working lately in the chromate of iron quarries?-Not for the last few years. I think it is six years since I was there.

10,414. How were the wages paid at these quarries when you were working at them?-Mr. Mouat was superintending then.

10,415. When did he cease to superintend?-I think it is only about a year back, or two years.

10,416. Was there a change in the company then?-Yes. There was a new company formed then, and new people to work the quarries.

10,417. Who was working the quarries when you were employed there?-There were different agents during the time I was there; but Mr. Mouat was superintendent.

10,418. You don't know who the company were?-I think the company were just the proprietors.

10,419. Were your wages paid to you in cash?-Yes; we got them in cash from the cashier, the late Mr. Charles Mouat,-not the present Mr. Mouat.

10,420. Where were they paid to you?-Sometimes at his house, and sometimes at the vestry, which was a public place.

10,421. But always in cash?-Yes, always in cash, since there was a cashier appointed.

10,422. Did you not sometimes get lines?-No; I never got lines. I cannot say for others, but I never got one.

10,423. Did you never see a line?-Not to my recollection.

10,424. Did you ever hear of lines being given?-I did hear about that, but I could not vouch for it being true.

10,425. What did you hear about it?-That some parties had got lines for part of their wages.

10,426. What were they to do with the lines?-I don't know.

10,427. What did you understand they were to do with them?-I understood the line was to be paid at the place where it was sent to.

10,428. Was that at the shop?-Yes.

10,429. And to be paid in goods?-I did not know that.

10,430. Did you not know whether there was any practice of that sort?-No, I did not know about it myself.

10,431. Have you heard that there was?-Yes; but it is a long time back.

10,432. I understood you had been employed there lately?-No.

10,433. Who is paymaster there now?-Mr. Gardner. I think the men are paid at his house.

10,434. The company have no shop?-No.

10,435. And Mr. Gardner has no connection with any shop?- None whatever.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, GILBERT WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,436. Did you receive a citation some days ago to attend here?- There was a citation handed to me not bearing my name.

10,437. It bore the name of Peter Williamson, storekeeper, Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,438. Is there any person named Williamson who is a storekeeper at Haroldswick except yourself?-No.

10,439. Did you not know that that citation was intended for you?-I could not certify that it was.

10,440. Had you any doubt that it was?-I had some doubt.

10,441. How could you possibly have any doubt when there is no other person of that name there who is a storekeeper?-Because my name in the register is Gilbert, not Peter.

10,442. Did you think that was a sufficient excuse for not attending this Court?-Yes.

10,443. Did you receive a citation to-day?-From a boy.

10,444. From a messenger from me?-Yes.

10,445. Did he tell you he had been sent from here?-He said he got it from Mr. White.

10,446. In reply to that, you wrote saying that you did not think that was intended for you either?-No.

10,447. Or that you received it too late, and that you did not know whether you were bound to come?-Yes. I took witnesses to see what time it was when I got it.

10,448. Are you the principal storekeeper to Spence & Co. at Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,449. Have you anything to do with the purchases of hosiery which are made at that shop?-We don't deal in it.

10,450. At the shop you do not; but Mrs. John Spence, who is not able to attend here to-day, has some dealings in hosiery?-We never see her buy hosiery in the shop, to my knowledge.

10,451. Do you not know that she buys hosiery in her house?-I hear that she buys hosiery, but I never saw her do so.

10,452. Have you ever received lines from her directing you to supply goods to parties from whom she has bought hosiery?-I have received lines from her to supply value for so much, but not stating that it was for hosiery. It might have been for anything.

10,453. Have you any of these lines?-No, I have none.

10,454. In what form are they drawn?-Suppose it was to Ursula Johnston, the line would be, Pay to Ursula Johnston the value of 2s., and it is signed J. Spence.

10,455. Do you always honour these lines by supplying the party named in them with goods up to the value of the sum named in the line?-Yes, with whatever they ask for.

10,456. Do you receive many of them?-Sometimes we receive a few, but not very many; at least I do not consider it very many.

10,457. What would you consider very many?-100 in a week; I would consider that very many.

10,458. How many is it that you do receive?-I never counted them.

10,459. Would there be twenty in a week?-Sometimes not one half of that, sometimes more, and some weeks none at all.

10,460. Is that according as the business is brisk, or the reverse?- So far as I know, it is. I am under the conviction that for a month I have had no advances to pay at all.

10,461. Is there any other way in which parties who sell hosiery to Mrs. Spence, or who you have reason to believe sell hosiery to her, are paid out of the shop?-I don't quite understand the question.

10,462. Have you any other transactions with Mrs. Spence?- None with her.

10,463. Do you know whether any other parties who sell hosiery to Mrs. Spence have accounts at the shop-I could not certify as to that.

10,464. Have you got any of these lines?-I have none of them on my person.

10,465. Have you any of them in the shop?-Yes.

10,466. Were they left there by parties to whom you had supplied goods?-Yes.

10,467. Did you read the citation which was sent to you?-Yes.

10,468. Did you see that you were required to bring with you specimens of lines given or received by any party connected with the company in the purchase of hosiery?-I saw that written there.

10,469. Why did you not bring them?-Because they were not mine to bring.

10,470. Whose were they?-Spence & Co.'s.

10,471. Why did you not ask leave to bring them?-Because the members of the firm were all here.

10,472. Could you not have brought them with you, and asked leave of the partners of the firm here to produce them?-That never occurred to my mind.

10,473. Do you make the same answer with regard to the citation to produce all papers, books, and accounts, [Page 254] showing the nature of the company's dealings with fishermen or knitters?- Yes.

10,474. You could not bring these here without asking leave of the members of the firm to produce them-I could not ask their leave, because they were here.

10,475. Could you not have brought the books here and asked permission then to produce them?-I did not think it was right for me to remove them from the office until I had asked leave to do so. There is one of the books here, the fisherman's ledger, which has been spoken to by Mr. Mouat.

10,476. How was that book brought here?-Mr. Mouat sent for it.

10,477. Why did you come here yourself without asking leave of the members of the firm?-Because I was summoned.

10,478. Was it not just as necessary for you to ask leave to come yourself as to ask leave to bring the books?-No, I came when I was sent for.

10,479. Let me recommend you in future to pay more attention to a legal citation when it is served upon you, or you will get into trouble. I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here, in consequence of the way in which you have behaved.

*The following specimen of the lines issued by Mrs. Spence was afterwards produced:-'Haroldswick, 13th Novr. 1871 Messrs. Spence & Co. pay Andrina Boyne the sum of one shilling. 1s. J. SPENCE' The line is crossed, 'Entd. G.W.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON (recalled), examined.

10,480. Are you agent at Uyea Sound for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I was agent, but there are no members now.

10,481. Have the men ceased to subscribe?-Yes. I think I have not sent up a return for five or six years, not having anything to send.

10,482. Are any of the members of your firm agents in Unst for the Society?-No.

10,483. Do you know anything of a man named Jamieson who was formerly at Uyea Sound, and who was warned out by your firm?- That would be Thomas Jamieson who was at Uyea Sound until three years ago.

10,484. Was he removed from that place shortly after you took your lease?-About a year after.

10,485. He had a shop there?-Yes.

10,486. Is there any stipulation in the lease about shops on the property?-It is so long since I read it that I don't recollect.

10,487. Have you any letters on that subject from Mr. Walker or from Major Cameron?-I cannot tax my memory with receiving any.

10,488. Is it understood that no shops should be opened upon the estate?-That was the understanding.

10,489. And was it in following out that understanding that Jamieson was removed?-Yes.

10,490. Do you know whether a man named John Johnston was removed at Haroldswick in carrying out the same understanding?-I believe he was. He has now a shop near the same place where he was before, on an adjacent estate.

10,491. He removed to Lord Zetland's land?-Yes.

10,492. Is that the case in which the shop was removed bodily across the road?-I believe so, but I cannot speak to that from seeing it.

10,493. I fancy the understanding you mention proceeds upon the footing that you ought, in consideration of the rent you pay to Major Cameron, to have the monopoly of the shop business in the island, so far as he can give it to you?-Yes; that no doubt was the intention.

10,494. And that would be one of the considerations upon which you pay so high a rent?-Yes. I may state that one strong reason why we took the lease at first was, that we believed it was depopulation and sheep farming that was meant, by what we saw taking place in other places; and we also were under the impression that the small tenants could not exist without the scattalds, or if they should have them to pay for; and while, of course, I do not say there was not some selfish design, because we expected to make a living, we also hoped to see them make a living, and we were to try to improve them if we could. However it ends, that was really our design, and the number of small shops which existed stood in the way of that. I have known cases where I would not give luxuries to a man who was in debt, but he would come and get fishing lines from me, which he said he needed, and he has sold them to other shops in order to supply himself with superfluities. I know one case in which I gave a woman a quarter of a boll of meal, when I would not give her either tea or sugar, and she went and disposed of a portion of the meal to a neighbour in order to get tea, she being then irrecoverably in debt.

10,495. Then you mean to imply that this monopoly was secured partly to save yourselves from debts of that sort, and partly to keep the people in their holdings?-Yes; to keep them from being turned out of the island.

10,496. But also partly to prevent them, when they got into your debt, from spending their money and their produce elsewhere?- Exactly. I may mention that North Yell we had only three fishing boats this year, and when I settled with them I paid them over £200 in cash. We had no store there, except a small one at the beach or fishing station, to supply them with the necessaries they wanted and the fishing materials. We don't cure by contract there, but by beach men, splitters, and boys; and I paid every one in cash as being the simplest and shortest way.

10,497. Is there any arrangement between your firm and any other firm or fish-curer, by which you take over the debts of men who change their service?-There is no arrangement. We try to do that if we can, but we find it rather uphill work.

10,498. Have you ever succeeded in getting a merchant who has engaged a man that formerly fished to you, and who left in your debt, to pay up the man's debt?-Since the company was formed we have had no experience of that, and it would be scarcely possible for me tax my memory just now with cases which had occurred before; but I have no doubt there were cases, in which I tried to do that, whether I succeeded or not.

10,499 If a man left Mr. Mouat, for instance, and was in his debt and came to you, would you pay up the debt which he was due to Mr. Mouat?-Yes; but it was only a peradventure; there was no standing rule on the matter, that I am aware of.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, THOMAS ANDERSON, examined.

10,500. You are a fisherman at Haroldswick, and you have fished for some years for Spence & Co?-Yes.

10,501. You have been running accounts with them: during that period, and taking your supplies from them?-Yes; the whole or nearly the whole of my supplies.

10,502. Before that where did you get your supplies?-I had more money to work upon then, and I got my supplies from John Johnston and from Mr. Mouat at Baltasound, and sometimes from Mr. Spence.

10 503 Did you pay them generally in cash?-Yes.

10,504. How does it happen that you have not been paying in cash during the last four years?-Because have a small family, and I have more responsibility.

10,505. Your expenses have been increased, and have not the cash in hand?-Yes.

10,506. Was it for that reason that you were obliged to run accounts at the shop at Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,507. Do you think you are as well served in respect of quality and price of goods as you were formerly?-I get the same quality of goods, but not at the same price. If I were taking cloth or cotton, or any other [Page 255] kind of goods, and paying cash for them, I would get them 2s. 6d. per £ cheaper than if I were having them marked down for a twelvemonth.

10,508. Have you tried both ways within the last two years, to any great extent?-I have not paid cash to any great extent within that time.

10,509. But you have bought perhaps £2 or £3 worth in the course of the year?-Yes.

10,510. Did you get a discount for cash?-Yes.

10,511. Can you tell me the cash price and the credit price for meal?-Not exactly; but I know that if I was buying a boll of meal for cash, I would get it 1s. 6d. or 2s. cheaper than if I was having it marked down for a twelvemonth. I have also got cotton 1/2d. or 1d. per yard cheaper when paying for it in cash than if it had been marked down. If I had cash to the amount of £20 in the course of a year, I am certain I could save £2 upon it at any rate.

10,512. If you were paid for your fish every month as they were delivered, do you think you would be able to pay in cash, and so pay off your debt?-I think I would, if there were good fishing years.

10,513. If you had a bad season again, where would you get your supplies?-We are not to be looking for bad seasons always.

10,514. Nor for good seasons always?-No.

10,515. You have had several good seasons now, have you not?- Yes.

10,516. How do you sell your winter and spring fish?-We can get cash or goods for them.

10,517. How much will you make for your winter and spring fish in an ordinary year: may it be £4 or £5?-Sometimes it may be as much as that, but not generally.

10,518. Could you not make more if you had larger boats?-We have never tried that; but I don't think it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HAY, examined.

10,519. You are a merchant in Haroldswick?-I was. I sold groceries and some soft goods; but I have given up that business now and turned farmer.

10,520. Were you engaged in fish-curing?-A little. I had one boat at one time but not now.

10,521. With what class of people was your business chiefly done?-Just with the neighbours,-tenants and fishermen.

10,522. Was it a ready-money business generally?-It was that system I liked. I ran some accounts; but I rather liked ready money.

10,523. You were not extensively engaged in fishcuring, and in that way you had no security for long accounts?-No.

10,524. Was that the only reason why you preferred a ready-money system?-I preferred it, thinking the system would work better once it had had a fair beginning.

10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an exception.

10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on business in any other way-Yes.

10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it would work better than the present system.

10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they would husband their means better; and if there were those among them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him. At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.

10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.

10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more advantageous terms?-I think he would.

10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.

10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for next season?-I should suppose so.

10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one shop?-Yes, it comes to that.

10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it.

10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system. I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their necessities.

10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them or not.

10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the most economical way, and thus be better off.

10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?- I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in cases of urgent necessity.

10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much risk?-I think so.

10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who were almost starving.

10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot say that I have had much experience of that.

10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and that did not apply to me.

10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it.

10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I think there has been.

10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different. A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing.

10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been some.

10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were then?-I cannot say as to that.

10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings them down.

10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it is now.

10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions under which they held their land?-I understand so.

10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't know if that was the general notion before.

10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they comply with certain regulations on certain estate

10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats, would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get so many as that, but he might.

10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you get them manned?-I cannot say.

10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their fish.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined.

10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes.

10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter which was written by me to the other members of the company, and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows:

'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time, whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even less than the present system does.

'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the commencement of the fishing? Be assured that we will be forced into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole & Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal. Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that circumstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if not to the cash system.

'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr. Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us. I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole & Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give this matter your consideration, if it should come no further. Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?- When we formed into a company, everybody was made to understand that there would be improvements in many things- which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand still.'

The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our way which we could scarcely control.

10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?- Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing that, the resources of the island could be far more easily developed.

10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing, not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way, if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working order for the benefit of all classes.

10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for his men?-Yes.

10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country, without having recourse to the man who was employing them?- Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do the people injury.

10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the principal herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there would be nobody to receive herrings when they did come.

10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?- It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on the coast.

10,565. But could not the fish-merchant make his arrangements so as to derive a sufficient profit from the sale of his fish without depending upon the profit that is derived from the sale of his goods?-It would be perfectly possible to make an arrangement of that kind; but the case of Shetland requires special arrangements in consequence of its peculiar position. If the fish could be sent off fresh to the market whenever the men came on shore with them, and we had no more outlays upon them, then there might be a profit; but, as things are now, we must lay in heavy stocks for the incoming year.

10,566. Heavy stocks of what?-Of fishing materials and salt. Spence & Co. must now order perhaps 150 tons of salt; and if we did not make arrangements with the men, that would become a loss.

10,567. But you could make arrangements with the men as early as you please, although the men were not dealing with your shop?- We expect the preference, because I hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement made with Mr. Walker was with a good intention. I think co-operation in the Shetland Islands is far more beneficial than competition. Competition between two poor merchants does not do any good, but an immense deal of injury; and I think that, before it cash system is entered into, a full and thorough investigation should be made by the proprietors and the principal dealers, in order to see how it can be made to work best for the general good. The change can be made without injury to any one, but it must be done a certain way, and that can only be found out by such a special investigation as I have referred to. Shetland is far behind, and I think the adoption of a cash system would be the means of increasing the number of dealers who would draw away the people's means and be a bar against developing the resources of the country in a proper way. Some of these dealers would be rubbed; the people would be poorer; and no dealer even with capital would be inclined to go into the field in such circumstances. If they did, it would need to be under some sort of protective system; or if a dealer with capital came forward he would have every chance of obtaining a monopoly, and he might do great mischief.

10,568. Is there not a monopoly at present?-No, we don't want it. We only ask the fishermen to give us the preference, and any man who has cash to get can get it at any time he likes.

10,569. I don't doubt that; but is there any competition in the shop trade in Unst just now?-There is no monopoly.

10,570. Is there not a monopoly on Major Cameron's estate at least?-It is not a monopoly. I say that what we aimed at was rather co-operation; and if we got a fair chance there was a prospect of the fishermen, if they had money, participating along with us.

10,571. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I should like the men, if possible, to find boats for themselves. It is not our fault that they don't own them.

10,572. Do you encourage them to buy their boats?-Yes.

10,573. Have you not succeeded in that?-Since we have formed the company, we have had a great deal to contend with, and I have been in ill health, and so many enemies have been created against us, that with bad years we have found it difficult to go on; but I hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement we made was for the good of the tenants.

10,574. But in what way has the opposition excited against you prevented the men from buying their boats?-Any change in Shetland, whether for good or ill, is sure to create opposition.

10,575. Has the opposition you have met with been among the fishermen?-No. If they are taken in hand properly, and made to understand matters, I have always found them quite reasonable, but they have been badly influenced.

10,576. Has that influence been exercised by rival merchants?-It has arisen perhaps from want of knowledge, and from parties not knowing how such business should be carried on. It would be our aim to allow the men to receive cash for what they earn, but there are many difficulties which can only be rectified by proprietors and us and the tenants together.

10,577. Do you mean that the proprietor should place the fishermen altogether into your hands?-If the motive is good, I think that should be the case. At least we should prefer to have the tenants to transact with us.

10,578. But would it not be far better that the tenants should stand on their own legs, and not be so entirely dependent on the large companies?-It would be better; but that should be gone into with great caution.

10,579. Don't you think the fishermen are less independent now, when there is only one large firm in Unst to whom they can deliver their fish, than they were when there were three competing merchants?-They may be in the meantime, but that always tends to harm.

10,580. What tends to harm?-Too much competition, because the country is too poor for it. It would be far better for the proprietors to take the men into their own hands to fish than to allow them to go to number of small dealers.*

*Mr. Spence afterwards wrote the following letter to the Commissioner:- 'Lest it may have been thought that in giving my evidence before you I had approved of a monopoly, I now beg to send a written explanation of what I meant, as I afterwards said to you I would 'There is nothing in a dealing way I so much dislike as a monopoly. What I wished to be understood was, that no number of small dealers, however willing, working as they do, can improve Shetland as it would really need; but that in order to develop the resources of the country thoroughly, it must be done by quite different means. There is no doubt but that a change is needed, but it should be merged into with caution, or it will do harm to some class. Shetland appears to be so far behind, that the people must serve an apprenticeship, as it were, to any change for their good. It occurred to me that some good might be done by all the dealers in Unst amalgamating, and by their united capitals and efforts carrying on business and the fishings on at sort of co-operative system; but it did not seem to be in accordance with a free-trade system, and was never tried, though, if properly conducted, I have no doubt it could have done some good. 'In reference to the cash system, you would see in the letter I read, and left with you, the views I have held. We have hitherto, for various reasons found some difficulty in adopting it fully, but we trust, ere long, to get it fairly introduced. One hindrance to us getting it fairly wrought, is owing to the way we are bound to the proprietors for the fishermen's rents. This also appears to those who do not know the nature of the business, to be a monopoly; because while we are thus bound we are compelled to a certain extent, to restrict such men who, from extravagant habits or other causes, cannot preserve their rents. It cannot be supposed that to such [Page 258] men we can hand over money-perhaps to be made a bad use of; and then, when rent time comes, have nothing to get from them, and often not having got any rent for boats and fishing materials. This is one thing in which there is great room for improvement in Shetland. 'As a member of a firm having the principal business in this land, I would beg to state that our mode of dealing seems to be greatly misunderstood by many; and it would be most desirable that an impartial investigation into the books and transactions of every other dealer in the island should be made, when, I have no doubt, matters would look something different. With regard to the fishermen, they are not bound to fish, and they were never told so. I, for one, have urged upon them to improve their farms, so as to enable them to be independent of fishing, which I consider to be a most dangerous employment in such small boats. We pay them cash whenever they want it and have it to get. We do not monopolize our dealings. Could a proper investigation be made in other shops, I can venture to say that, on the whole, we sell cheaper than any other. Besides the other dealers in the island, the steamer runs twice a week in summer, and once in winter, from Lerwick to here; and if the people wish to avail themselves of it, they can get their supplies as easily from there as here. A public roup, advertised all over Shetland, is held once every year for the sale of cattle and ponies, where there is perfect freedom to buy and sell. There are many things we do for the people which are not generally known. I shall only mention one thing, to show what we have to combat with. 1868 and 1869 the fishings were small, and the crops so blighted, that seed and meal had to be imported, and given out on credit to a great many, or else they would have starved. The effects of these two years tell against both the men and us for some time, but such occur occasionally; and it is dealers, standing as we do, that feel it most. We hold, as you are aware, a lease of a large portion of this island, and we are bound to see certain improvements carried out, which, being new here, raises a hostile spirit against us by those who are not inclined to see our island made better. We try to introduce any other improvements that can be thought of, feeling assured that if we can get them accomplished, the people will be in much better circumstances than they are. While we are pressing these improvements, small dealers draw away the means of the people, preventing both them and us from getting so fast on as we would otherwise do; and while we are using all reasonable means to try to get the indolent not to sell what, of their own farm produce, they really need themselves, as is sometimes done, the report is often got up that we want to monopolize the business of the island, when there is nothing of the kind ever thought of by us.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER NICHOLSON, examined.

10,581. You are a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick?-I am.

10,582. You hold land under Mr. Edmonstone of Buness?-Yes.

10,583. And you fish for Spence & Co?-I fished for Mr. Spence, but not for Spence & Co. I have not fished any for three years.

10,584. Do you devote yourself entirely to your farm now?-Yes.

10,585. Why did you give up the fishing?-Because I did not like the sea.

10,586. Were you quite content to fish for Spence & Co. if you had continued at the fishing?-I would have been.

10,587. Where do you get your supplies now?-From Spence & Co. and other places, just where I can make the best bargain.

10,588. Do you work at anything besides your own farm?-Yes, I do day's work back and forward.

10,589. Do you get your day's pay at the time?-Yes; if I ask it, I get it.

10,590. But you do not always ask it?-Sometimes I do not; sometimes it will be two or three days, or a week, or a month, before I get it.

10,591. Who do you work for mostly?-For Mr. Spence.

10,592. Do you keep an account at his shop?-Not much. If I want anything I pay the money for it.

10,593. But you have an account sometimes?-No, I never keep one.

10,594. Is there not an account in your name in his books?-Not very much. I never keep a note of that myself.

10,595. But there is something in his books against you?-Yes.

10,596. And sometimes your day's pay is entered in that book too?-No. I get money for my day's wages when I have asked for it, or if I am working for some time it is entered in the book until I get it, but all the money I have to get is given to me when I ask for it.

10,597. Then you just keep an account the same as fisherman does?-Much the same.

10,598. Only what is put down in your case is a day's pay or a month's pay for work, instead of the price of fish?-Yes.

10,599. Have you been going on in that way for three years?-Yes.

10,600. Do you settle every year?-Yes, once a year, in January or February. I have not settled for last year yet.

10,601. Was there a balance against you at last settlement?-Yes, about 10s. or 12s.

10,602. Therefore you had no money to get?-I had money to get. It is now that I have about 10s. or 12s. against me; but if I wanted goods, and paid the money, I always got them.

10,603. Do you get some money now and then?-Yes, I always get it when I ask it.

10,604. But you don't like to ask for much when you have an account running against you?-No. I just get as much as keeps me.

10,605. Where do you sell the stock off your farm?-I sell them to any man who gives me most for them, but it is few or none that I sell on this island. There are parties who come into the island to buy them, and usually sell to them.

10,606. Why don't you get your day's work paid to you at the time?-I would get it if I asked it.

10,607. Why don't you ask it?-Perhaps because I am not needing it at the time.

10,608. Where do you get your supplies from besides Spence & Co.'s?-At Mr. Johnston's.

10,609. Do you pay the same price there?-Much about it.

10,610. Is there any difference?-Not very much.

10,611. Is there any difference at all?-I don't know; I have never seen much difference.

10,612. Is the price of meal the same at the two places?-I always bought meal in bolls, and paid so much per boll. I bought some from a farmer at Haroldswick, not from Spence & Co., and I paid him 21s. per boll for meal off his own farm. I have not bought any from Mr. Spence this year.

10,613. Is there no oatmeal in your account?-No.

10,614. Was there a balance in your favour at the last settlement after you stopped fishing?-Yes; I think I had £12 to get. I think my shop account for goods that year was about £4.

10,615. Who is the farmer from whom you got that meal?-Mr. Hugh Inkster. I gave him money for it when I bought it.

10,616. Where did you get the 21s?-I got it from some ponies that I sold, and from some money that I had saved before I left the fishing.

10,617. Did you sell these ponies to Spence & Co.?-I sold one to William Manson, and another to Charleson, who comes from Yell Sound.

10,618. Do you sometimes buy your goods elsewhere than from Spence & Co. and Johnston?-I sometimes get them from Lerwick.

10,619. Do you get them cheaper there?-Very little. I never send for them unless I am going there myself.

10,620. Did you ever fish for any one else than Spence & Co?- Yes; I fished for the late Mr. Samuel D. Hunter, Lerwick.

10,621. Were you paid by him in the same way every year?-Yes.

10,622. You never were obliged to fish for any particular person?-No.

10,623. And you never were obliged to take your goods from any particular shop?-No.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, DAVID EDMONSTONE, examined.

10,624. What are you?-I am factor on the Buness estate, and a farmer.

10,625. I understand you have had a great deal of experience of business in Shetland?-Yes. I was nine years in business as a fish-merchant, and I have lived in Shetland all my life, with the exception of a year or two.

[Page 259]

10,626. Were you the writer of a letter which was quoted in the evidence given in Edinburgh, Q. 44,511-Yes.

10,627. Do you still retain the same opinions as are stated in that letter?-I do.

10,628. Do you think it is a correct statement at this time, that the people do not receive in money one-fiftieth of their earnings?-In the way I look at it, I think that statement is correct, because I hold that when there is only a settlement once a year, in January or February, and the man gets his balance then, that is not a cash payment in any sense of the word.

10,629. You mean that it is only a cash payment so far as the balance is handed over to him?-Yes; and that he has not got cash for fish or any other produce during the season.

10,630. You don't doubt, I suppose, that a fisherman can get an advance of cash during the season if he wants it?-No, I don't doubt that.

10,631. Do you think that advances or payments of that nature in the course of the fishing season ought to be made compulsory, or to be required by law?-Yes, I have long thought so.

10,632. Do you think that would be practicable in the fishing business?-I think so most decidedly, so far as my experience goes.

10,633. Have you any opinion to give with regard to the system of combining land-holding with fishing in Shetland?-I think they must be combined to a certain extent. I have thought a good deal and I don't think a man can earn a sufficient livelihood by fishing alone, because the weather in the winter time is so stormy that they cannot often get out for many days, and sometimes for weeks.

10,634. Would that difficulty not be removed to some extent if larger boats were introduced, and the men were trained to the use of them?-I think not. From the strong currents which run round the shore, I think larger boats are not adapted to the coast. In fact, I believe a good Shetland boat, well manned, would go through what a much larger one would not go through.

10,635. Do you know that to be the opinion of the best seamen in Shetland?-I believe it is. For instance, the large boats used in the neighbourhood of Lerwick for herrings have often been lost when the common six-oared boats came safely. These large boats are more unwieldy and more difficult to handle than the small ones.

10,636. At what period are the rents on the Buness estate paid?- At Martinmas.

10,637. Is it necessary to fix the payment at that period, from a consideration of the settling time between the merchants and the fishermen?-Yes. It has always been the habit to pay the rents at Martinmas.

10,638. It is universal in Shetland, I understand, to pay the rents only once a year?-Yes; the tenants have their holdings from Martinmas to Martinmas.

10,639. Can you explain why that arrangement has been made? Is it from anything connected with the fishing?-I think so. The men would then have an opportunity of completing their fishing and getting all the sales made which they have to make, and then they are supposed to be in funds. I suppose that is the reason, but I don't know.

10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during which they are to fish. One reason for that-in fact the only reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore a great number of them will be induced to run a heavy account at the shop, and when we collect the rents at Martinmas we would have nothing to get. If the men were paid in money, daily or weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no such arrangement, but would collect the rents directly from the men.

10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to secure that we are to get part of that money.

10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.

10,643. Are you aware whether that is a usual arrangement in Shetland?-I don't know. The Buness estate was in tack or lease to tacksmen for twelve or fourteen years before 1868, first to Mr. Hunter of Lerwick, and then to myself. Under that arrangement we paid a certain amount for the estate, and made the best we could of it.

10,644. You took the risk of the tenants paying their rents?-Yes, the entire risk.

10,645. Did Mr. Hunter and you employ most of the men as fishermen?-Yes, most of them.

10,646. Do you think the effect of the present system is to stunt trade, and keep other shops down except those of the fish-curers?-I think so.

10,647. Did you hear the evidence which Mr. Spence gave on that subject?-Yes.

10,648. Do you agree with his opinion that it would be better to have one large monopolist than a number of small shops?-No, I don't agree with that.

10,649. You think that competition would be wholesome?-I think so, if there were cash payments.

10,650. Have you any reasons, within your own experience, for maintaining that opinion with regard to Shetland?-I think, from my own experience, that the people would be very much more independent if they had cash in their hands. They are not entrusted with cash just now, as a general rule. I know they get their balances paid; but they are not entrusted with cash, and therefore they are not independent. They are like schoolboys; they lean upon other people, and I don't think that is a good system. When a bad year comes, they expect that the fish-curer has to advance them meal; and they will tell him that if he won't do it, they won't fish for him again. In that way he must do it; in fact they think he is bound to do it. They have no self-reliance or independence.

10,651. Could they get supplies in any other way if the curer did not advance them meal?-There are very few tenants who have not stock of their own-cattle and horses.

10,652. But these are liable to the landlord for their rent?-Yes; and they are liable to be sold for supplies to themselves.

10,653. Do you think that even in a bad year their stock might carry them through?-I think so, in most cases.

10,654. Is there any restriction on the Buness estate upon the opening of new shops?-None whatever.

10,655. Do you think it is possible for a shopkeeper to prosper in Shetland who is not engaged in the fishcuring business?-I think so.

10,656. Even under the present system?-Yes; because there is a good deal of money among the people, irrespective of the fishing. They have their produce, and they are not compelled to go with it all to the fishcurer. There are several shops in this island, the keepers of which, I believe, are doing very well.

10,657. Do you know anything as to the season at which these shops have the largest sale?-I do not.

10,658. Would it be a fair inference, from what you know of the state of things here, to say that the receipts of these shops are much larger in the spring, when the men have got a little cash at settlement, than they are at other periods of the year?-I daresay they are. I cannot speak of that from my own experience; but I believe that these shops advance a number of the fishermen who are fishing, perhaps, to Spence & Co. or others, and take the chance of getting payment when the men receive their money.

10,659. But that is a chance which comes to nothing, or falls altogether, if the men happen to have run up a large account at Spence & Co.'s shop?-Necessarily so.

10,660. So that these dealers run a considerable risk in giving credit at all?-Yes.

10,661. Do you think a large firm, which is engaged both in the shop business and in the fish-curing business, [Page 260] has a great hold over the fishermen, so as to secure their services for the fishing season?-That depends entirely upon the place and the circumstances. If the firm has control over the men, from having a lease of the lands on which they live, they must necessarily have a great influence over them.

10,662. But may such a control not be obtained merely by them having, a number of the men in debt?-I believe it may.

10,663. Are you aware of such control having been exercised by fish-merchants in Shetland?-I have heard about it, but it is not within my own knowledge. My own experience has been that indebted men and bound men are the most difficult men to deal with, and that a clear independent man is the man easiest to deal with in every way.

10,664. Is there any other general statement which you wish to make with regard to the state of Shetland?-I don't remember any. I would mention with regard to the Buness estate, that we have offered leases to a great number of the tenants, but they don't seem inclined to take them.

10,665. Are you acquainted with the rules which have been laid down on the neighbouring estate of Major Cameron?-Yes.

10,666. Do you know how far the tenants have been adopting them?-I believe they are working into them gradually.

10,667. The lease in that case is rather a short one, is it not?-I think it is too short for an agricultural lease, especially with the obligations they are under.

10,668. Do you mean with regard to peats and scattalds?-No; I mean especially the obligations they are under with regard to improvements.

10,669. There are obligations to make certain improvements, and to uphold and improve the houses?-I believe so.

10,670. Do you think these obligations are a reason why the rules and regulations have not been more generally complied with?-I don't know. Of course it is very difficult to get a people who have been accustomed to a particular system, and who are wedded to their old ideas, to change; but I think the people here are now beginning to see, after two or three years' trial, that it is to be for their own advantage, and that they will go on with it.

10,671. The leases which you offered on the Buness estate were, I suppose, intended to introduce a similar system of improvements?-Yes; but the tenants always seem to think that if they sign a lease for fourteen or nineteen years they are binding themselves. They would wish to be free to go any year they like, but to have the proprietor bound not to turn them off. That, in my experience, is the reason why leases are not popular as a general rule.

10,672. Can you give any information as to the ordinary diet of a Shetland fisherman and his family?-I believe they live very much better than the same class in England or in Scotland, or I should perhaps say more expensively.

10,673. What distinction do you draw between these two things?- They use a great deal of tea and biscuit and loaf, which the same class in Scotland don't use.

10,674. I thought that loaves were generally unattainable in some parts of Shetland?-They are not so in this island.

10,675. Have they not to be brought from Lerwick?-Yes, but they are brought in great quantities.

10,676. Is not oatmeal the staple article of food?-They use it to a great extent; but I don't think they use it in the form in which it ought to be used. I don't think that too much tea and very little bread is good for the working man.

10,677. In what form is the oatmeal mostly used?-I suppose it is used in bread, but I don't know exactly. I don't think, as it general rule, they use porridge, which is the most economical way of using oatmeal.

10,678. Is a large quantity of fish used for the diet of the fishermen?-I believe there is in summer time, and also when it can be got in winter.

10,679. Would you say that that is the principal article of diet along with the oatmeal?-I should say that fish and potatoes were the principal articles of diet.

10,680. Is butcher meat sometimes used by them?-I believe it is very seldom.

10,681. But with fish, potatoes, meal, bread, and biscuits, the population of the island are supplied to a sufficient extent?-Yes.

10,682. And they are more than amply supplied with tea?-I think so.

10,683. Has there been an improvement on the houses within your time?-I think there has. We tried to make the houses, when we were building new ones, better than the old ones were.

10,684. Are new houses upon the estates here generally built by the proprietor?-Always, except when sometimes a man takes a small bit of hill or scattald, and then he will make a small house for himself.

10,685. Is that often done?-Not often.

10,686. Is that the origin of many of the houses now existing?-In some parts of Shetland I think it is, but I don't think it is to a large extent in Unst.

10,687. In Unst the houses are more commonly built by the proprietors?-Yes; because there are not in Unst a great proportion of what are called offsets-places which have been taken in from the bill.

10,688. The island has been longer under cultivation?-I think so.

10,689. Then you cannot speak generally of the character of the house accommodation throughout Shetland?-I cannot.

10,690. Would you think that here it is rather better than in other places?-I think so. Unst houses are generally built 28 feet by 12, and about 7 feet high and they contain two rooms. They are built with stone and clay, harled with lime, and covered with thatch and turf.

10,691. In Unst I suppose the houses now have generally chimneys?-Yes, mostly-one in each house.

10,692. Is it in the middle?-No, it is at one end and many of them have still an open fire at the kitchen end, sometimes in the middle, and sometimes at the gable; but we have built chimneys to some of the tenants in both ends.

10,693. Where there is an open fire, what is the exit for the smoke?-It goes through holes in the thatch left there for the purpose. These holes are left for air, and to allow the smoke to go out.

10,694. Was that the ordinary character of the Shetland houses until lately?-I think so.

10,695. There were no chimneys?-No.

10,696. Are the windows generally glazed now?-Yes; but in many of the old houses they had no windows.

10,697. Do some of these houses still exist in Unst?-I don't know any now, but there may be some for anything I know.

10,698. Are there any in other parts of Shetland?-I have seen them in more remote parts of Northmaven, but that may be a year or two ago.

10,699. You cannot say whether that is a common style of house in other parts of Shetland?-I cannot.

10,700. Have you any observations to make upon the printed evidence that was given in Edinburgh?-I think not.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Rev. WILLIAM SMITH, examined.

10,701. You have been for some time the clergyman of this parish?-For nearly three years.

10,702. During that time you have been a good deal among the people, and you are acquainted with the system that prevails of long payments of wages, and of running accounts?-I am acquainted with that from conversations with the men.

10,703. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system on the character of the people in general?-[Page 261] I have. I think the present system has a very deteriorating effect upon the character of the people generally. I quite agree with what Mr. Edmonstone has said in that respect. There seems to be a great want of self-reliance, owing to the present system.

10,704. The men are in the habit of looking to the merchants to help them through bad season?-Yes, they are in the habit of looking to the merchants and others.

10,705. And I suppose they are not generally disappointed in that reliance?-Not so far as I am aware.

10,706. But you consider that that is not a wholesome thing?-I think it is not. I have had experience of the same class of people, living under a different system, and I have formed a decided opinion in favour of the cash system of payments as compared with the credit system which is carried on here.

10,707. Was your experience in that matter in Orkney?-Yes; among the same class of people.

10,708. Were the employments of the people of the same character there?-Their employments were similar, to a certain extent. Further, I find very often a want of ready cash among the people, and complaints are often made to me of a want of money for payment of school fees and other matters. I found, in speaking to one of the present proprietors, that his uncle had at one time from £500 to £600 of savings deposited in his hands by his tenantry, but now, so far as is known, there is little or nothing of that kind.

10,709. Do you think there is no saving?-I don't hear of it.

10,710. May it not be that the savings are deposited in another quarter?-It may be, unknown to me, and I have no doubt there is money in possession of many of the people, but of course they endeavour to keep that secret as far as possible; and I think there is a want of confidence between the tenantry and proprietors generally, owing to the present system.

10,711. How has the present system produced a want of confidence between the people and the proprietors?-The cause of that has been already explained in great measure by previous witnesses. There is, as has been already remarked, a monopoly here. There are small traders to whom their money would go, and they don't do what is proper, I think, to the firm who employs them. I have met them bringing goods from these small traders, which they were morally bound to have got from the larger merchants when their names were upon the books of these merchants. Hence there is an endeavour at concealment very often as to what they really have, and a want of proper faith.

10,712. Do you mean that a person who is indebted to one of the larger merchants is tempted to sell some of his stock to other people?-I don't say that he is tempted, but that such cases have often happened.

10,713. You mean that a man often sells his stock, or anything he has to sell, such as butter and eggs, to a small merchant, rather than to the large one to whom he is indebted?-Exactly.

10,714. Does he get money from the small merchant in that case?-I don't know that he does; but the impression is generally prevalent, that they may get goods of the same class from the smaller merchant at a lower price, and I think the present credit system does not enable the merchants who are in business here, to sell articles with the same profit as merchants do elsewhere. I find from my own experience that I can supply myself with the same goods at a less cost by bringing them from a considerable distance south, and by paying the expenses of the carriage, than I can buy them here. I think it would work better for all parties, both proprietors, fish-curers, and tenants, if such a system of money payments as has been suggested could be introduced.

10,715. Can you state whether it is universally the case, that persons in Shetland in the rank of clergyman or small proprietor do obtain their supplies out of Shetland?-That is invariably the practice, so far as I am aware.

10,716. Is that in consequence of a difference in price and quality, or only in consequence of a difference in the price of the goods?- It is in consequence of a difference both in quality and price.

10,717. Do you speak as to that matter from your own experience?-I do.

10,718. Is there any other matter which you are prepared to speak about with reference to this inquiry?-There is one thing to which Mr. Edmonstone referred which I think is of some importance. I think that if proprietors were letting their holdings directly to the tenants, the tenants and proprietors coming into contact as they do elsewhere, and the proprietor evincing in that way a greater interest in his tenantry, the result might be a considerable benefit. For one thing, there might be an improved class of dwellings. I find a great want of proper arrangement in the dwellings here, and a proper division of the sexes, and to that I attribute in a great measure the amount of illegitimacy and immorality which prevails. I don't think the houses which are occupied by the common class of people here are equal to these occupied by people of the same rank of life in other parts of the country. I have seen several houses here which are at present without windows, unless a pane of glass let into the roof may be called such. At the same time, I think the people themselves might do a very great deal towards improving their dwellings, provided they were receiving weekly or monthly wages, as the case might be, in prosecuting the fishing, and if they were encouraged to exercise greater self-reliance.

10,719. Have you known cases in which parties have been led into debt greater than they could liquidate, by the present system of long settlements?-I have. I have come personally into contact with such cases.

10,720. Have the people consulted you in their difficulties?-They have; and I am aware personally of fishermen having contracted debts which their survivors could not possibly liquidate. In the case of men who have lost their lives by accident, I have known that the firm by whom these men were employed have lost considerably: that, I had reason to believe was in consequence of the present system; and it was almost beyond the power of the widows and children to liquidate the debt which had been contracted.

10,721. In such a case, is there no system of insurance existing, by which the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund or some other society, comes to the aid of these widows and children?-I regret that there is not. I am aware that the men have been encouraged to contribute by the agents of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, but they have not availed themselves of it as I think they ought to have done.

10,722. Are there no agents for that Society in the island?-There are two or three of them, two at least. One is in the merchants' office and one is not; there may be others.

10,723. But the men don't take advantage of that?-They do not, to the extent which they ought.

10,724. So that, in the case of a boat accident of that sort, resort must be had, if the widows are destitute, either to poor-law relief or to public subscriptions?-Exactly.

10,725 In another part of Shetland I have had some evidence given with regard to the appropriation of such subscriptions to pay debts due by the fishermen who were lost. Are you aware of any such cases having occurred in Unst?-I have been applied to in that way when I was in charge of funds, but I have refused to make use of the funds for that purpose, because I did not think that, conscientiously, it was my duty to appropriate them in that way.

10,726. You mean that you have been asked to apply funds so subscribed to liquidate a debt due to the fish-merchant?-I have.

10,727. But your opinion was that the subscribers had not intended the fund to be applied for such a purpose?-Certainly it was.

10,728. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I should wish to remark that if a cash system were introduced, it would not only have a beneficial effect generally upon the community, but it would apply to [Page 262] all transactions between the merchants and the people generally, so that no negotiations between the merchants and people should take place unless in cash. I mean to say, that where widows are paid annuities, and where pensioners receive their quarterly or half-yearly allowances, these should be paid in cash. I don't attribute the fact that they are not paid in cash at present to any design upon the part of the merchants at all, but I think it is the result of a system which has been long continued here, and which I think is very much to be regretted.

10,729. Do you mean that any custom prevails according to which annuities of that kind are not paid in cash?-Such a custom does prevail.

10,730. What sort of annuities do you refer to?-I refer to annuities allowed to widows by Anderson's Trust, founded by the late Mr. Anderson, M.P., and I refer to allowances which are paid by the Inland Revenue to pensioners under the paymaster for the northern district of Inverness. I believe that such pensioners do receive payment of their pensions in goods. Of course that may be done by consent of the pensioners themselves. I don't say that it is done by design of the merchants, but I am aware that it does take place.

10,731. Who is the agent in these cases through whom the funds are payable?-The collecting supervisor of Excise at Lerwick.

10,732. Through what channel does he pay the annuities which you refer to in Unst?-Through the merchants, as a convenience to himself.

10,733. He remits the money to the merchants, and the annuities are taken out in goods?-Exactly.

10,734. Are they credited in the accounts which are run by the annuitants?-The annuities are very often taken out to nearly the full extent of what they have to receive before their money comes.

10,735. Are you in possession of that information from the annuitants themselves?-I am. I think it is part of the general system which prevails, to pay in that way. The people have gradually drifted into it, and seem to look upon it as something quite natural and reasonable. They have not been accustomed to anything else. I have also met in with cases of men receiving payment of days' wages by lines upon the shop, instead of receiving a payment in cash and attribute that to the very same thing.

10,736. In these cases where days' wages were paid in goods, were the men working for a farmer, or to the shopkeeper himself?-No, they were working for contractors upon buildings.

10,737. Is it the case that there is sometimes considerable difficulty in making such payments in cash in Shetland from the scarcity of silver money?-I have no doubt there is often some difficulty in that way but I am never at a loss for silver money if I have to make any payments to labourers or others, because I can get a cheque cashed in silver by any small merchant to the extent of £15 or £20 at almost any time. At least I have met with such cases. I have not applied to the larger merchants for cash on such occasions, but I have been offered silver to that extent by a small merchant.

10,738. Would there be any difficulty in getting change of a pound at a large merchant's shop?-Yes, I have met with such a difficulty.

10,739. Why?-From the want of silver.

10,740. Is that because they transact their business to such a large amount by barter?-Yes; I attribute the want of silver, to a large extent, to that.

10,741. Are you expressing that opinion from a single instance, or from a variety of cases?-From repeated instances happening within my own experience in which I have not been able to get change. I have not been able to get change at a large shop, but very frequently I have got it at the smaller shops. The general opinion is that a greater amount of the silver coin is to be found with these smaller merchants than at the larger shops, and in that opinion I quite concur.

10,742. Are you speaking now of what you know to be the general opinion, or of what you have found to be the case in your general experience?-I am speaking of what I know to be the case from my own experience.

10,743. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of this system upon the truthfulness and uprightness of the Shetland character?-I have formed the opinion that it has a very bad effect indeed upon the straightforwardness and truthfulness of the character of the people in this part of Shetland, for of course I have, had no experience elsewhere. I have found among the younger portion of the population generally a desire or at least a tendency, not to be so straightforward as one would wish.

10,744. How does that arise from the system?-I think it arises from it in this way?-Very often a fisherman or his wife may be taking their produce to a small merchant, under the impression that they will get a better bargain there than from a larger merchant; and there is a general desire to conceal what their possessions may be. I have found by experience that I have been imposed upon in one or two instances with regard to that.

10,745. But do you think that has occurred in more instances than would have occurred in any other parish in Scotland?-I do think so. I think that one great evil of the present system arises from the people not feeling the value of what they purchase, because they get it on credit here, and are led to use what the same class of people do not use elsewhere. For instance, they use a great deal of tea and fine flour, and fancy biscuits and preserves, and other things of that kind. I think that has a very deleterious effect upon the people themselves, because it encourages prodigality, and the same earnings would go much further if laid out on different and more wholesome fare.

10,746. Do you think they take these things because they get them on credit?-They get them on credit; and my belief is, they do not feel it so much as if they were paying ready money for them.

10,747. You mean they do not feel it except once a year?-Yes; and I believe they would think more about it if they had to pay for them in ready cash.

10,748. Your knowledge with regard to the payment of annuities and pensions. I presume arises from the fact that you have in many cases to sign a certificate before the annuitant or pensioner is entitled to receive payment?-Yes.

10,749. You have to certify that the parties are living, and that you know them?-Yes.

10,750. Is there any other thing you wish to add?-Not that I remember just now.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ROBERT GRAY, examined.

10,751. Are you a fisherman here?-I am. I fish to Mr. Sandison at the station.

10,752. Where do you live?-I live at Snarravoe.

10,753. You have heard the evidence to-day, and you desire to come forward and make some statement yourself with regard to the advances of meal you have received from Messrs. Spence & Co?-Yes. I wish to say that if I had not been advanced by them in two bad years, I must have starved with my family, because, I did not have the means with which to buy supplies.

10,754. Were you in debt to Spence & Co. at the beginning of the two bad years?-Yes.

10,755. And you continued to fish for them?-Yes.

10,756. Have you got further into debt during late years, or have you cleared any of your debt off?-I have got a little out of debt, because I had some cattle to spare, and I had a bigger fishing; but at the time when I had nothing with which to support my family they supported us and paid my rent too.

10,757. On whose property do you live?-On Major Cameron's property.

10,758. Then you paid your rent to him?-I paid my rent to him until Spence & Co. took me into their service.

[Page 263]

10,759. Who did you fish for formerly?-Captain Cameron kept the fishing when he was alive, and I fished for him, and at other times I just fished for the man that I got the best bargain from.

10,760. But at one time Captain Cameron held you bound to fish for himself?-Yes.

10,761. You now take your supplies from Spence & Co?-Yes; and I could not be better supplied than I have been by them.

10,762. You don't deal anywhere else?-No, except for any small thing which I require; and if I have a penny or so I go into any shop and buy.

10,763. Do you get any cash in the course of the year?-I get it when I ask for it.

10,764. How much have you asked for?-I never could ask for much because I was in debt, and I am in debt yet; but when I asked for a little, I got it at any time.

10,765. I suppose you have some money passing through your hands at times?-It is not very much. I went south some years ago and I had no money, and I wrote to those people to supply my family while was south, and they gave them what they required. 10,766. Is that all you wish to say?-Yes.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, recalled.

10,767. Do you wish to say anything further?-Yes. The reason why the big shops have no change is, that they are daily paying for produce and advances to their fishermen, and change is very much wanted. I have often had to issue small checks for want of change promising to pay them when I got the change.

10,768. Is there any other person here who wishes to give evidence or to make any statement? [No answer] Then I adjourn the sitting here until further notice.

<Adjourned>.

UYEASOUND: SATURDAY, JANUARY 20, 1872

CHARLES WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,769. You are a fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell?-Yes.

10,770. How long have you lived there?-I have lived for four years at Gutcher.

10,771. Where were you before?-At Mid Yell.

10,772. Have you been a fisherman in Yell all your life?-No; I have been south at sea half the time, and at the whale fishing.

10,773. Do you do much in the winter fishing?-A good deal.

10,774. You do a good deal more at that than your neighbours?- Yes, a good deal.

10,775. How much will you make for a winter and spring fishing, before the regular haaf fishing begins?-Last winter I made about £12, and in the spring £6.

10,776. Have you made a good fishing of it this winter season, so far as it is gone?-Yes, very good.

10,777. Do you sell your fish as you land them?-No, I salt them as I land them.

10,778. Will you make as good a fishing of it this season as you did last season?-I hope I shall. I have every prospect of doing so.

10,779. You carry on that winter fishing with a small boat?-Yes, with a small four-oared boat which I work with my two boys.

10,780. You think you make a great deal more in the winter and spring than any of your neighbours?-Yes, I have always done that, because I devote my time to it exclusively.

10,781. In fact you are more industrious and courageous?-I think I have been that.

10,782. Do you think it would be possible for a man here to live by fishing all the year round?-I am living by it myself.

10,783. Have you not a piece of ground?-I have a small piece of ground, but it can do very little for me, because I am paying about £12 of rent and rates. I have to buy all my livelihood in the course of the year from my fishing.

10,784. You do not depend much upon your ground?-No.

10,785. Not so much as most of the tenants round about you?-I do not.

10,786. Is that because the rent you pay is higher than is paid by others?-I have a better house than others, and that makes the land higher.

10,787. Do you think that if you had large boats here, such as they have on the east coast, the fishing might be carried on all the winter?-Not the Faroe fishing, or the fishing which is carried on in the summer time. The deep-sea fishing could not be carried on in winter, because there is such a heavy current.

10,788. Do you think that even with the large boats, in which you have a shelter for two or three of the men, it would not be possible to carry on that fishing?-With the large boats we could hardly work the lines in the way we work them now.

10,789. Have you thought of trying that?-I have, and I am thinking of trying it now.

10,790. You are going to make an experiment about it this season?-Yes; I am thinking about trying it now with a large boat, such as are used along the Scotch coast. If I had a boat like theirs, I think I could fish all March and all April and May.

10,791. Do you know whether anything of that kind has been tried before in Shetland?-There has been no attempt made in a boat like that.

10,792. But you believe there may be a fair chance of doing a good business with it?-I should think there is.

10,793. Do you think you could not go out to the haaf with a boat like that in winter as you do in summer?-We would trust more to her if she were decked over.

10,794. Do you think you could manage to get out to the deep sea with such a boat as that in winter?-Yes, we could manage to get there; but the difficulty would be to manage the sailing in of our lines. The way we do just now is to haul them in.

10,795. You mean the difficulty is to take in your lines with the boat sailing?-Yes; the same as they do on the Scotch coast.

10,796. Your practice in Shetland is to haul in your lines while rowing, and never to haul them in while sailing?-Yes; we sometimes set them while sailing.

10,797. But you believe you could learn to haul them in while sailing also?-Yes.

10,798. Are the lines you use of the same kind and the same length as are used on the east coast?-The lines we use are 42 fathoms to the length of line, and we use hundred of these lines.

10,799. Is it long since you were at the whaling?-I think the last year I was there was 1864.

10,800. How were you engaged that year?-I was engaged in Mr. Tait's office, in Lerwick.

10,801. Did you get your outfit from him?-I got my advance; I did not need an outfit.

[Page 264]

10,802. Had you been there before?-Yes, often.

10,803. Had you an account with Mr. Tait that year?-Yes, I had several accounts.

10,804. Was that for your own supplies at home?-Yes; they required a little while I was away.

10,805. I suppose you always had an account with the agent who engaged you for the fishing?-Yes.

10,806. At that time I believe these accounts were generally settled in the agent's office and the amount of your account was deducted from the payment of your wages and the first payment of oil-money?-Yes.

10,807. And you settled the final payment of oil-money at any time that suited you when you were in Lerwick?-Yes.

10,808. Was the settlement of your account made when you landed from the ship?-Yes; if we chose to make it there and then, we could do so.

10,809. But it was very often later?-Yes, pretty often. I cannot say how much it was later. If I came into Lerwick, and the packet was ready to leave, so that I had not time to carry through a settlement then, I would go home, and then I would return in about a fortnight or so, and have a settlement made.

10,810. How was the second payment of oil-money made to you? Was it in cash?-Yes, generally it was in cash.

10,811. Did you sometimes get it in goods?-If I wanted goods I could get them, but I was commonly paid in cash.

10,812. When you were to settle for your first payment, I suppose you generally had some small account standing?-Yes.

10,813. Where was it settled?-In the office.

10,814. Was the office beside the shop?-Yes.

10,815. Was it always with Mr. Tait that you engaged for the whale fishing?-No; I have been out for Mr. Leask too.

10,816. Did both of these gentlemen have their offices in the shop?-Yes.

10,817. When you went into the shop were you generally asked if you wanted anything?-Yes; commonly we were asked that.

10,818. Was that before the settlement or after it?-It was after we had done settling, and when we had money coming to us.

10,819. Had your money been paid to you before that?-No.

10,820. But when you found out the total that was due to you, you were asked whether you wanted any goods?-Yes.

10,821. And you would generally take something else?-I did not take very much myself. I always got the money.

10,822. When you went to settle for your final balance, were you also asked whether you wanted anything?-It was always when I came down again to go to Greenland, or to go south, that I got it.

10,823. At that time you would want some supplies to be sent home?-Yes.

10,824. And if you wanted anything of that kind, it would be set down against your next account?-No, it was set down against the second payment of oil-money, if we had so much coming to us.

10,825. What you have been describing was the ordinary practice during all the years you were at the whale fishing, both for Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait?-Yes, and for Messrs. Hay also.

10,826. Did you sometimes engage with Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

10,827. Do you think it would be better to have your fishing paid by monthly payments, according to the quantity delivered, and at a price fixed at the beginning of the season, rather than to have the long accounts you have now?-I don't know that, upon the whole, it would be any better for myself; and I can only speak for myself. Those whom I have been serving for the last three years have given me money whenever I wanted it.

10,828. But don't you think you would have the money more under your own command if you were paid monthly or fortnightly?-I could not say that I would have it more under my own command, because they give it to me whenever I ask for it.

10,829. I suppose the merchants are always very glad to get you to fish for them?-I suppose they are.

10,830. Are you not about the best fisherman in the islands?-I have heard that said since I started.

10,831 And I suppose you have generally a balance to get at the end of the year above the supplies you have got?-Yes, sometimes.

10,832. Who do you fish for?-Spence & Co.; I have done so for the last three years.

10,833. Do you get all your supplies at Uyea Sound?-Yes, except occasionally when I send down for anything to Lerwick.

10,834. Do you think you get any advantage in price or quality by sending to Lerwick for your goods?-I do not.

10,835. I suppose you get all money if you ask for it?-Yes. 10 836. And you don't require to take any supplies from Spence & Co. unless you wish?-No; I only take meal and oil-cloth, and the like of that.

10,837. But you might get all your pay in money if you wished, and be able to buy your goods anywhere else?-Yes, I could get every cent of my money if I wanted it.

10,838. Is it entirely of your own choice that you deal in the shop?-Entirely.

10,839. Where is it that boats are most commonly lost on the coast of Shetland? Is it at sea or in the sounds?-It is when we come in towards the land. We fish fifty or sixty miles dead off the land, and we will come in within ten or twelve miles of the land before we get into any danger. Then we come in upon the tides.

10,840. Therefore, if you were out at the haaf in your large boats, these boats might live through any storm?-Yes; a large boat could keep outside and not require to come in to involve herself in the tides, but when we have a small boat we are forced to come in.

10,841. A man cannot stay outside in these small boats?-No; the weather is always getting worse, and the sea getting higher and higher on them, and they must run for the laud.

10,842. But with a larger boat you might run out to sea in a storm?-Yes.

10,483. Do you do that sometimes with your small boats, and escape?-Yes.

10,484. You think that is often a better course to take than running for the land in a storm?-Yes; the summer breezes are not very long.

10,845. But do you do that in a winter storm?-In winter we do not go very far off the land in our small boats.

10,846. But in a winter storm with one of the large boats you are to try, you think you may run off to sea and be comparatively safe?- I think so.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 265]

LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 1872

WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.

10,847. You are cashier and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask, merchant, shipowner, and agent in Lerwick?-I am.

10,848. You have been for nineteen years in his business, during which time you have been employed in shipping and discharging seamen, engaging and settling with fishermen, and employing and paying hundreds of labouring people?-I have.

10,849. You are also fully acquainted with the barter system as it prevails in Shetland?-I am.

10,850. I understand you desire to be examined with regard to the Report furnished to the Board of Trade in September 1870 by Mr. Hamilton, as well as on certain questions and answers in the Report of the Commission, of which you have given me a list?-I do.

10,851. Will you give me, in the first place, a general description of Mr. Leask's business? He is, I believe, a proprietor of land to some extent in Shetland?-Yes, and he is also a pretty large proprietor of house property in town.

10,852. What estates does he hold?-He has estates in West and South Yell, Ulsta and Coppister.

10,853. Has Ulsta been long in his possession?-I think about ten years, but I could not exactly say.

10,854. What is the extent of his estates in Yell?-There are about fifty tenants on the Yell property, and the annual value is upwards of £200.

10,855. I understand that in Yell Mr. Leask now carries on the fishing to a considerable extent?-He has only commenced in the past season to carry out the fishing in Yell on his own account.

10,856. Has he a station and shop there?-He has now. He commenced them at the beginning of this year at Ulsta. The shopkeeper is William Hughson.

10,857. How many boats were employed there last year?-Four.

10,858. Are the fishermen bound to fish for the proprietor?-They are not bound to fish. They requested Mr. Leask to employ them last year, and it was at their own request he did so.

10,859. Who was the fish-curer at that station previously?- William Jack Williamson, and James Johnston. Williamson lived at Ulsta, and Johnston at West Yell Sound.

10,860. Was the request you have mentioned from the fishermen to Mr. Leask to employ them a written one?-No; it was verbal.

10,861. How was it conveyed to you?-By the people themselves.

10,862. By how many of them?-By about half dozen or thereby; I cannot state the number exactly.

10,863. Did they come to Lerwick for the purpose?-They always come to Lerwick in November to settle their rent accounts; and in November 1870 a few of them requested Mr. Leask to build boats for them, and they would fish to him rather than to Johnston and Williamson.

10,864. Had Williamson given up business at that time?-No.

10,865. Had he still a shop and curing station at Ulsta?-Yes.

10,866. In consequence of the request made to you by the men, what steps were taken to take over the business at Ulsta?-The business was not taken over at all. Mr. Leask simply built boats for three crews, and employed three masters to obtain crews at Ulsta and West Yell. One boat belonged to Ulsta, and the other two to West Yell.

10,867. Did Mr. Williamson hold premises from Mr. Leask on the Ulsta estate?-Yes.

10,868. He paid rent for them, but he had no lease?-No.

10,869. Did he receive notice that his tenure was at an end?-Yes; he received notice of that verbally two years or year and a half before he had to leave.

10,870. Had he received it before the verbal requisition was made by the fishermen to Mr. Leask that he should take them into his service?-I think so; but I could not be sure.

10,871. Was it in the contemplation of Mr. Leask to commence business there himself, at the time when he gave Williamson the first notice to leave?-I am not quite sure. I think he was not sure about it himself, whether he would commence business there on his own account, or let the premises to another party. The matter had not been fully considered; but I think Mr. Leask had it in contemplation to make some change, because the Yell people were not altogether satisfied with the state of matters at that time.

10,872. And the requisition made by the six fishermen had the effect of bringing him to a decision?-I suppose it had; at any rate it helped. The men were all of opinion that they would be better served by Mr. Leask, than by any person whom he might send there.

10,873. Were the fishermen under any obligation to fish for Williamson?-I don't think they were bound.

10,874. Was there any understanding when he took his premises, that the fishermen on that estate should fish for him?-No. Mr. Williamson was on the estate before Mr. Leask bought it; and after Mr. Leask bought it the men were at liberty to go wherever they pleased, either to fish at home or to go to Greenland, or to go south, or anywhere they liked. They were not bound in any way.

10,875. But when they did go to the home fishing, were they at liberty to sell their fish to any one they chose?-The boats belonged to Williamson, and of course they would be bound to give him the fish.

10,876. But were they at liberty to go in the boats of any other fish-curer?-Yes; they were at perfect liberty to fish for whom they pleased, so far as the landlord was concerned.

10,877. Was there any written lease of the premises to Williamson at any time?-He never had any written lease, so far as I am aware.

10,878. If there had been a written lease at the time when Mr. Leask bought the property, you would have been aware of it?-I think so.

10,879. It would have come into your hands along with the other writings relative to the estate?-Yes.

10,880. Either before or after the application of the West Yell tenants to Mr. Leask, was any intimation made to the rest of the tenants on that estate, or to the whole of them, that he (Mr. Leask) was about to open a shop there himself, and to receive fish?-The men who made the representation to Mr. Leask were given to understand that he would build boats for them; and when they went home they spread the report that Mr. Leask intended to do that.

10,881. Was any written intimation made to the tenants to that effect?-None that I know of.

10,882. Or any verbal intimation other than you have now mentioned?-The masters of the boats were to go and engage their own crews. We appointed masters, and they went among the tenants to engage whom they could get.

10,883. What instructions were given to the masters?-They were engaged on the same terms as usual, and they were to be paid in the same way.

10,884. But what instructions were given to them about telling the tenants?-There were no special instructions given at all.

[Page 266]

10,885. Were they desired to inform the tenants that Mr. Leask was undertaking the fishing himself, and that he expected the tenants to engage in his boats' crews?-At that time Mr. Leask could get more men amongst his tenants than he could employ, and there was no need for any pressure. More men were anxious to go than he had boats for at that time.

10,886. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Williamson about him leaving Ulsta?-Yes, a very long correspondence, and rather an amusing one. He implored Mr. Leask to allow him to remain for another year, as his business was so extensive that he could not wind it up in so short a time.

10,887. What was Mr. Leask's objection to allow him to remain?-He required the premises as a dwellinghouse for the incoming man, William Hughson; and of course it would not do to have opposition.

10,888. But he had made no arrangements for that at the time when Williamson was requested to prepare for removal?-He had not.

10,889. Then when was the correspondence? Was it when Williamson first got the notice or afterwards?-It was not until long afterwards. I think Williamson was of opinion that Mr. Leask would not remove him, and he trusted to that until the very last. I think he had some idea of getting the new premises, notwithstanding what had passed.

10,890. Were new premises built?-Yes, they were built last year. They were begun in June and only completed in December 1871.

10,891. Was Williamson still carrying on the fishing in 1871 while these new premises were being built?-Yes. He was fishing and carrying on the business the same as before.

10,892. How many men had he fishing for him last year at Ulsta?-I think he had about the same number of boats that he had formerly.

10,893. And he still had the same premises?-He occupied the same premises all along. The premises which Mr. Leask is occupying now for business purposes are altogether new. Williamson continued to occupy the old premises until November 1871, when he had to leave.

10,894. Where did he manage to get fishermen when Mr. Leask had put on three new boats?-I think he got some from Mr. M'Queen's estate, and also some of Mr. Leask's own tenants.

10,895. Does Mr. Leask intend to put on a larger number of boats this year?-I think he intends to put on one or two more.

10,896. But the boats' crews that he employed last year had formerly been in the employment of Williamson and Johnston?- Yes.

10,897. Is Johnston still carrying on business?-Yes, he is carrying on business at Sound, in West Yell, where he has a small property.

10,898. Do you know how many boats he has?-I think he has two but I am not sure. Some of Mr. Leask's tenants fished for Johnston last year also.

10,899. Will Mr. Leask's tenants be allowed to fish for Johnston and Williamson in future?-I don't think they would do so if Mr. Leask would give them employment.

10,900. But will they be allowed to fish for any other than Mr. Leask?-I don't think Mr. Leask would force any one to fish for him.

10,901. The tenants have received no intimation to the contrary?- No.

10,902. And no hint?-No hint whatever. In fact, there were tenants applying in November last for new boats, and requesting Mr. Leask to build new boats for them, because there are a good many men who would like to be employed by him, in preference to being employed by Johnston or any other body.

10,903. Do you know whether many of the men were in debt to Williamson when he left Ulsta?-I don't know.

10,904. Was that one of the reasons why Williamson was anxious not to quit in a hurry?-He alleged that reason; but I am of opinion that there were not many of them in debt.

10,905. Did he ask you to relieve him of any of these debts?- Never.

10,906. Do you suppose he has any chance of recovering any debts that may exist now?-Certainly he has. The men have all got effects of some kind or another, so that he may easily take them into court and recover what they are due him. They are all in very good circumstances; there are none of them who could not pay their debts.

10,907. Has Mr. Leask any property in Sandsting?-Yes; he has the property of Sand and Inner Sand. There are between 40 and 50 tenants upon it.

10,908. Are most of them engaged in the summer fishing?-A good many of them are. Some of them fish for Garriock & Co., and some for Mr. Leask, and I think some for Charles Nicholson.

10,909. Is that property in the south side of the parish?-Yes; it is near Reawick.

10,910. Has Mr. Leask any station in that district?-No.

10,911. Then where do they fish for him?-They go in some of his vessels to the Faroe fishing. He has no home-fishing station in Sandsting.

10,912. Are they at liberty to go to the home fishing or to the Faroe fishing for anybody they like?-Yes. They are under no obligation to fish for Mr. Leask. They can go where they like, and they have always done so.

10,913. Do they hold their land as yearly tenants?-Yes.

10,912. What other property has Mr. Leask?-South Whiteness, to the north-west of Scalloway, in the parish of Tingwall. I think there are about seventeen or eighteen tenants on that property. They fish principally for Mr. Leask in the Faroe fishing, and in the spring fishing, which occupies about a month or a little more.

10,915. Then they are not generally engaged in the home fishing?-No; they are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing.

10,916. How many of them may have gone to that fishing last year?-There may have been above a dozen.

10,917. These men, I presume, have accounts at Mr. Leask's shop at Lerwick?-Yes.

10,918. Is there any stipulation made with them that they shall man his Faroe smacks?-None. They are not bound at all. They may go where they please and engage themselves with whoever they please.

10,919. Has Mr. Leask any other properties in Shetland?-He has some small properties in other places-in Quarff, North Roe, and Aithsting. He has two tenants in Quarff, three in Aithsting, and one in North Roe. These tenants do not fish for Mr. Leask at all, and never have done so, or been asked to do so.

10,920. Then Mr. Leask's business consists in sending smacks to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

10,921. And in sending boats to the summer fishing?-Now it does, but not formerly. It was only last year that he commenced the home fishing at Ulsta.

10,922. Has he commenced that business anywhere else?-No. Ulsta is the only summer-fishing station that he has.

10,923. Mr. Leask is also engaged in the whale fishing, both as an owner of ships and as an agent?-Yes.

10,924. I believe it is specially with regard to the agency business that you wish to make some statement?-Yes. I wish to make a statement with regard to Mr. Hamilton's Report to the Board of Trade in November 1870. Some of it is so utterly absurd that I should like to have it contradicted. He says, 'I ought to mention that the truck system, in an open or disguised form, prevails in Shetland to an extent which, I believe, is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom.' Now, that I deny <in toto>; and I think I will be able to prove before I am done that it is not correct. 'And makes its depressing influence felt in all the ramifications of the industrial and social life of the natives.'

10,925. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is [Page 267] the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' Is that the case?-There may be some cases of that, but it is not general. I deny that almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt. Then he says, 'These fishermen, for the most part, also rent small farms of from three to four acres.' That also I deny Mr. Leask has about 120 tenants, and I think the average quantity of land they hold is about twelve acres of enclosed ground, besides common.

10,926. What is the amount of their rent?-The rent is something less than 10s. an acre, on the average. Some have as much as twenty-three acres, and in some cases they have about seven. The rental I have given is for the enclosed ground within the township; and in addition to that, the people have extensive commons.

10,927. On Mr. Leask's estates are the scattalds still left to the people without any payment?-Yes, except in Yell, where they have to pay 6d. per annum for every sheep. They also pay something for ponies, but nothing for cattle.

10,928. I omitted to ask whether Mr. Leask has the management of any properties except his own?-No.

10,929. He is not tacksman of any property, and he holds no property in lease?-No. I may mention that he has an assignation of the rents of a small property in Mid Yell, in security for debt. The rents are paid regularly, and he has nothing to do with the tenants except to draw their rent at the term.

10,930. Then what you deny in that sentence of Mr. Hamilton's Report is merely his statement as to the extent of the holdings of the men?-Yes. I hold they are three or four times larger than he says.

10,931. In the same sentence he adds, 'And it is from them (that is, the fishermen) and from their sons that the crews of the whaling vessels are mainly drawn.' Is that the case?-I don't deny that at all. It is quite true.

10,932. Is it also true that there are no whaling vessels belonging to Lerwick-that they belong principally to Dundee, Peterhead, and Hull, and that the owners of these vessels engage large portions of their crews at Lerwick through agents?-Yes.

10,933. Is it also true that these agents get little direct profit from their agency?-They get 21/2 per cent. commission on the gross wages paid through them.

10,934. Do you consider that an adequate remuneration?-It is not nearly an adequate remuneration for the amount of trouble they have; but it has been the practice to pay that, and there is so much competition amongst the agents that it has brought it down. I believe it was formerly 5 per cent.

10,935. I believe there are only three or four agents in Lerwick, and that the commission is fixed by mutual agreement between them and the shipowners?-Yes. It has always been 21/2 per cent. within my recollection.

10,936. Is it the competition that prevents the commission from being raised to such a figure as would be a sufficient remuneration in itself?-Yes.

10,937. The agents are engaged in business as shopkeepers and outfitters?-Yes.

10,938. Then it is the case that they have little direct profit from their agency; and Mr. Hamilton goes on to say, 'Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men.' Is that statement correct?-I think some of them make very little profit indeed from the men. They sell their goods as cheap, if not cheaper, than other shopkeepers do; they give credit to the men, and sometimes they lose a good deal of it through bad debts when there is a bad voyage.

10,939. Is a bad voyage in the whaling a thing of frequent occurrence?-It is very frequent, especially in the seal fishing.

10,940. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'Many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage?'-That is often the case with young hands. They come here without any clothing, and require perhaps from £5 to £6 worth in order to fit them out for the Greenland voyage. The wages for young hands are about £1 a month, and 1s. per tun of oil. When they have no success, they are back in about a month and a half; that is only 30s. they have to get, and that is all the agent has for his advance.

10,941. You are speaking now of the sealing voyage?-Yes. It only occupies about five or six weeks with the steamers.

10,942. But when a man goes on a sealing voyage of that kind, is he taken for the whaling voyage afterwards?-Sometimes, but sometimes not.

10,943. Do many of them only go to the sealing voyage?-Yes. Last year the majority bargained for the sealing voyage only, and did not go on the whaling voyage. Some of them re-engaged again, but many of them did not.

10,944. But, as a rule, do one-half of them engage for a second voyage after the sealing voyage was over?-I should say they do.

10,945. And many of them, I suppose, engage for a whaling voyage, who have not been at the sealing voyage at the commencement of the season?-That is sometimes the case.

10,946. How many men have you engaged for the last four or five years for the sealing voyages?-I could not say exactly for the last four or five years, but last year we engaged 207 for the sealing voyage, and 80 for the whaling, or 287 altogether.

10,947. Is not that an unusual proportion between the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. In former years we used to engage more for the whaling, and fewer for the sealing; but last year the owners took it into their heads to engage the men only for the sealing, and discharge them at the end of that voyage; and then, when the vessels were going to the whaling, they re-engaged only such men as they wanted.

10,948. What was their reason for that?-I suppose they were trying to economize. I don't know whether they economized or not, but it must have been with that view they tried it.

10,949 Are the crews larger in the sealing voyages than in the whaling?-They are. I should say that ten men fewer per ship are required for the whaling than for the sealing

10,950. How many ships would these represent?-Seven for the sealing, and four for the whaling.

10,951. So that you had three ships fewer under your care for the whaling than for the sealing last year?-Yes.

10,952 How did that happen? Did the ships not go to the whaling?-The 'Esquimaux' did not call here for men last year. The 'Victor' did not go at all to the whaling, and the third one remained at the sealing the whole season.

10,953. Then, in one ship the men you engaged would be employed through the whole season for the sealing?-Yes. That vessel tried whaling for a short time but I suppose it did not succeed.

10,954. You say that when a young man goes to the sealing at first, he incurs a larger debt for outfit than the whole amount of his wages?-Very often he does.

10,955. So that the merchant who engages him is often a serious loser, having no security in the shape of wages?-He risks his goods on the success of the voyage, and when the voyage is unsuccessful, he comes out a very serious loser occasionally.

10,956. But the man remains in his debt and may pay it up in a subsequent year?-Very often he does not. When a man gets into debt, we generally lose him. He goes to some other agent, or he goes south.

10,957. Is he more likely to go to another agent when he is in debt?-Yes. We very seldom get a man back again who is in debt to us.

10,958. How does that affect Mr. Hamilton's statement?-He says, 'The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Now we very seldom or never get them employed again when they once get into debt, and therefore it is our interest not to allow them to get into debt, if possible.

10,959. But you would be very glad to get employment for such a man if you could?-If we could get him employment we would be very glad; but they take [Page 268] very good care not to allow us to catch them. Of course, there are some of them who pay their debts, but that is the exception. I am now referring to the young hands-those who get into debt on their first voyage.

10,960. When a man of older standing gets into debt, is he more likely to pay up in a subsequent year?-Yes. A man whose family is settled here is more likely to pay up.

10,961. Of course, in his case, you are not only interested in getting employment for him, but he also is anxious to get employment through you?-Yes, it is a mutual accommodation; but there are very few of the old hands in debt. It is principally among the young men who make unsuccessful voyages that anything of that kind happens. Then we come to a very serious mistake which Mr. Hamilton makes. He says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeepers, are practically debarred from doing so; for any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Now, it is nonsense to say, that there are often more men than berths. We have often had to go and search for men, and ships have frequently had to go on their voyages short of men. That has often occurred within the last nineteen years to my knowledge. I have seen vessels lying here for day after day, when we were searching for hands and could not get them, and after all they had to leave short-handed.

10,962. Did that occur last year or the year before?-No; it has not occurred for it year or two, but five years ago it occurred in the case of the 'Jan Mayen.' The first year she was a steamer, which was five years ago, she had to go short-handed, because the men were so scarce.

10,963. Do you know of any other ships which have had to go to the fishing short-handed?-They have gone short-handed, although I could not just remember them. I know that in 1854 or 1855 a number of them were short-handed.

10,964. Was there any particular reason why that was the case in 1854 and 1855?-There were more ships than men. I believe the Russian war was the principal cause of it.

10,965. Had a number of Shetland men gone into the navy at that time?-They had gone south, not perhaps into the navy; but there was it great demand for men in the merchant trade. For the last two or three years, also, the men have not been in excess. When the ships were done, the men were generally done too, so that they were about equally matched.

10,966. You refer to the statement in the Report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man?'- Yes; I deny that most emphatically.

10,967. Is it the case that the men generally get what outfit they require at the shop of the merchant engaging them?-It is generally the case, but we engage plenty of men who go elsewhere to buy their goods. They are good men, and we are glad to get them back again. We never care a straw about whether they buy goods from us or not.

10,968. Are these men who have money of their own?-Yes. We give them their first month's advance in money, and they can go where they like.

10,969. What proportion of the men spend their month's advance elsewhere?-I don't think there is large proportion of them who do that. We generally find that we get on pretty well with the men, and that they prefer buying their goods from us. They tell us, but I don't know for the truth of it, that they get better value in our place than they get elsewhere.

10,970. Suppose a man gets his outfit from another agent, or from another shop, and comes back to you next year, is there any note kept of him having done so?-Never. There are several men who do that regularly, and we never quarrel them for it. They are good men and we don't like to lose sight of them for the sake of their custom. We always like to get hold a good man whether we get his custom or not and therefore we never quarrel with them on that account.

10,971. Suppose a man is in your debt at the beginning of the year, is he likely to go and get his supplies from another shop?-I could not say about that; but debt does not constitute any hold over him at all.

10,972. Do you know any case of a man in your debt at the beginning of the year having gone and got his supplies from another merchant?-I believe he would take part from us and part from others.

10,973. But do you know any case of that kind where the man went to another merchant for his supplies?-I could not point to any case.

10,974. Does any communication take place between different shipping agents with regard to the men who are in debt?-Not now. Formerly we used to hand our accounts from one to the other.

10,975. Did you exchange lists of the indebted men?-There were lists given for the other agents to try to recover the debts for us if possible.

10,976. Was that done with the view of obtaining payment from the agent by whom the men were engaged of a debt due to another merchant incurred in previous years?-Yes; but it was only done with the man's consent. Sometimes we recovered it, and sometimes not.

10,977. When you say that it was done with the man's consent, do you mean that at settling time the agent, who was aware that you were a creditor of the man, would arrange with him to hand over part of his wages to his former creditor?-Quite so, if the man was willing to do so.

10,978. The agent might advise him to do that, but not compel him?-He never could compel him. He would simply ask him if he chose to pay the claim; and if he chose not to pay it, there was no compulsion whatever.

10,979. Did you ever know of a man refusing to do that?-Very often.

10,980. In that case I presume that since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854, there were no means compelling payment?-None; except, of course, that he could be taken to the Small Debt Court.

10,981. And there was no security, no lien on the men's wages?- None whatever. There never was that at any time. It was purely with his own consent if the money was used for paying another agent's account,

10,982. How long is it since these lists were interchanged between the agents in Lerwick?-It was previous to 1854. Perhaps there may have been some handed since then; one agent may have handed his accounts to another, in order to get recovery of them.

10,983. You say you have been nineteen years with Mr. Leask, and therefore these lists must have been interchanged within your time?-Yes; I was first employed in 1853.

10,984. Do you say that there have been no lists of that kind exchanged, and no information communicated with regard to the men's debts, since 1853 or 1854?-I don't remember any since 1854: there may have been, but I don't remember handing any lists or receiving any lists since that time.

10,985. Or receiving any information at all with regard to the debts of the men?-Not since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854.

10,986. Why do you fix that date?-Because at that date it became compulsory to have the men shipped and discharged before the shipping master.

10,987. Has that always been done since 1854?-Not always. It was done I think, in 1854 and 1855, and it was not done again until 1867. In that year it commenced again, and the wages were all paid down in presence of the shipping master.

10,988. But if the Act was not observed with regard to the payment of wages in presence of the shipping master, how did it interfere with the passing of these lists?-The practice was given up.

10,989. At that time was it the practice for the men [Page 269] to receive payment of their wages at the agent's office?-Yes.

10,990. Was that done during all the period from 1854 down to 1867?-Yes, but not including 1867.

10,991. Can you say that, during that period you retained no portion of any man's wages for debt of another agent?-It is quite possible we may have done so, but I don't recollect.

10,992. I suppose your books will show whether any portion of a man's wages was so retained?-Yes.

10,993. Do you remember any case in which that was done?-I don't remember any particular case, but it is quite possible; in fact, it is even probable.

10,994. Do you think that some retentions of that kind took place every year?-I don't think so. Of course, if a man gave an order on Mr Leask to pay a debt or an account for him, he was bound to pay it if the man had funds in his hand. I have seen that done- that a seaman gave a special order in favour of another agent or another party.

10,995. Is that done frequently?-Not very often, but it is done sometimes.

10,996. Is it done by the man of his own accord?-Decidedly.

10,997. But probably at the request of the other agent?-I don't know about that. For instance, instead of getting money from the seaman, he might get an order on the agent, the same as he might get an order on the bank.

10,998. But the other agent who was the creditor of the seaman does not know necessarily that you have money belonging to the man in your hands as agent?-Not unless the man tells him.

10,999. Do you not still pass lists each year from one agent to another, stating the sums which are due to you by the men?-No.

11,000. I do not speak merely of seamen indebted to you; but do you not pass lists of all seamen whom you engage for the whaling?-Not at all. We have no occasion to do that, because it could serve no purpose whatever.

11,001. Why?-Because an agent who had a seaman in his books as a debtor would know at once whether that man was engaged by another agent in a particular year.

11,002. Is it the practice for one agent to be allowed to inspect the lists or books of another, in order to ascertain what seamen have been engaged?-I never did that or saw it done.

11,003. I suppose there are means of finding out in a small place like Lerwick what seamen in a particular year have been engaged?-We sometimes found it out in the Shipping Office. Whenever we wanted to see where a man was, we went there.

11,004. Can you state distinctly that in every case where such an order is presented for payment of a seaman's debt, it is presented without any previous communication between the agents?-I suppose it always is, but I don't know. The one agent has no interest whatever in recovering debts for the other; he gets no

remuneration for it.

11,005. If that is the case, why does he not refuse to honour the order?-I would not dishonour the order if the man had funds in our hands.

11,006. But the Merchant Shipping Act requires that all wages shall be paid, not in that way, not in obedience to any order, but in the presence of the shipping master in hard cash?-That is true; but it still allows a man to pay his debts.

11,007. Should not the agent leave him to pay his debts himself, and so obey the law?-It is merely as an accommodation to the seaman that we pay his debt for him, and we trust to his honesty that he will repay it to us.

11,008. But still, on the part both of the agent and of the seaman, is not that an infringement of the law?-No, it is not an infringement.

11,009. Does not the law require the whole wages, without any deductions other than those specified in the Act to be paid over in presence of the shipping master?-Yes, and that is always done.

11,010. If that is so, how is it possible, for you in obedience to such an order to retain the man's wages?-I do not retain them. The man comes back and repays his debt.

11,011. Then that is not retention in obedience to an order?-It is not retention: there has been no retention since 1867. Every man, since then has got his money in the Shipping Office, and those who had accounts in the shop came back and paid them.

11,012. Then how did it happen that you spoke of these orders being implemented?-I was referring to the period before 1867.

11,013. Your statement now is, that no such orders have been given, or acted upon since 1867?-They may have been given, but there have been no deductions from the seaman's wages since then, except the captain's account, the first month's advance, and the allotments. With these exceptions, the whole money was paid down to the seaman in the Shipping Office, and when he had an account in the shop he came and paid it.

11,014. Will your books show that?-Yes.

11,015. In what way do, your books prove it?-I request that the shipping master be called upon to prove it.

11,016. To prove what?-To prove that the men get their wages in money in the Shipping Office.

11,017. I intend to call Mr. Gatherer to prove that but you have come forward in order to contradict Mr. Hamilton's report, and the question I asked is, in what way do your books prove that no such orders have been honoured since 1867?-Mr. Gatherer will prove that since 1867 the men have got their wages paid down to them in money.

11,018. Am I to record that your books do not prove that?-They do not prove that. I want the shipping master to prove it.

11,019 Then your books will not prove that all the wages have been paid to the men in cash, and that no sum has been retained in obedience to a seaman's order?-That can be proved by the shipping master.

11,020. But your books do not prove it?-We have accounts with the seamen, and when they get their wages, they invariably come back and settle these accounts. We do not retain anything; we invariably pay them the whole money that is due to them, and they can either come back or not as they choose.

11,021. Who is it that hands over the money to the men on behalf of Mr. Leask in presence of the shipping master?-It is generally Mr. Andrew Jamieson, and sometimes myself. One of us attends at the Shipping Office along with the men, and hands over their cash to them in presence of the shipping master.

11,022. Do you generally find that a seaman comes down to your office immediately after he has been paid, and settles any account that he is due?-We generally find that that is the case; in fact, always when they have accounts they come down and settle them.

11,023. Have you known any exceptions to that rule?-I have only known one man who tried not to come down and settle his account.

11,024. Who was he?-He was a lad belonging to Lunnasting, named Robert Grains. He declined to come down and settle his account but he afterwards came on the same day. I think that occurred two years ago.

11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay his debt when he is able.

11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on the ground that he required the money. I don't know whether he was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he required the money.

11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr. Jamieson's.

11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I don't remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of the circumstance.

11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page 270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes the other.

11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due.

11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867.

11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping Office?-I don't think there is.

11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don't know; it has just happened so.

11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few instances might have occurred, but it was not very general practice at all.

11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely ascertained when the man was to settle and came along.

11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes, in what ship.

11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the Custom House?-Possibly he might.

11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or from some other party.

11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the man?-It is quite possible.

11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that sort?-No.

11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes.

11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes.

11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt as to make it a common practice.

11,044. It might come to something considerable where several hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but when they were divided among four agents there would not be many.

11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes.

11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we employed about 500 in 1853.

11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I don't think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year there were very few indeed.

11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable.

11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton's Report, you have omitted a sentence in which he says: 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman's wages.' Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common.

11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr. Leask's office but I believe it has been done elsewhere.

11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask's office?-We just trusted to the men's honesty.

11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all.

11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an allotment note?-Not generally.

11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all.

11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any allotment note.

11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We may have given one or so.

11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or other relations, which they were entitled to draw from you?-We would have advanced money to parties whom we knew.

11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman's family during his absence?-Yes.

11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them, but we did not wish them to take them.

11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr. Hamilton's Report?-Towards the end he says that the men employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their supplies anywhere they please.

11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who are clear?-Decidedly. The debt constitutes no hold whatever over the men.

11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in Shetland?-Yes, even then.

11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'While the men employed are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of their labour.' That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word 'appropriating' does not look very well; but it is not correct. The Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that they have got fair play.

11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that.

11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at settling time?-Very few indeed.

11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don't pay much attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as my experience goes.

11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton's Report, to which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?- That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of settlement done as speedily as possible.

11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble to us.

11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to any extent?-Very seldom.

11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here [showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the 'Esquimaux' on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by 14th May, or in about two weeks.

11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did.

11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing.

11,073. Have you had any case of as early a discharge in the case of a whaling voyage?-Here [showing] is the crew of the 'Polynia' last year. Nineteen men were landed on 26th October, and they were all paid off and discharged by 29th November, or in about a month. When the men don't come to be discharged, it is entirely their own fault, not ours. We can't compel them to come. We wish them to come as soon as possible and to settle; but sometimes they don't find it convenient. Some of them may live 20 or 30 miles from Lerwick, and they don't care about coming until they have to come deal about some other business.

11,074. Is it not often more than a month before they are discharged?-Perhaps it is. Two or three of them may stay away till the end of the year, but that is the men's fault, not the agent's. Mr. Hamilton says in the same paragraph: 'When he (the agent) does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' I deny that. The man he may hand it back or not, as he chooses, but if he is an honest man he will pay his debt.

11,075. But you don't deny that in most cases there is a debt due to the shop?-In most cases they have an account with the shop, but in some cases it is very small.

11,076. Can you give me an idea from your books what is the average amount of the debts due by the men engaged in the Greenland fishing?-I could not do that just now; but I can state that, in 1865,-which was before we were compelled to settle with them in the Custom House, we paid to the men of the 'Camperdown'-42 men-£1120, 12s. 3d. in cash; and out of that number Mr. Leask had only one tenant.

11,077. That would be about £25 apiece?-Yes, on an average; but some of these men had upwards of £50 to get. One of them had £54, 18s. 5d. to get, and he got it in cash.

11,078. Was that a very successful year?-Yes; and the following year was somewhat similar to it.

11,079. What would be the amount of goods supplied to these men at starting, or to their families during their absence?-About £400 for the whole crew.

11,080. That would be about £9 apiece for the 42 men?-Yes, about that.

11,081. Would that be the average amount of a Greenlandman's account for the season?-No; it would be much more than the average. Less than the half of that would be nearer the average.

11,082. But the amount of receipts due upon that voyage was considerably above the average?-Yes; it was it very exceptional voyage.

11,083. Was it twice as much as usual?-Yes; perhaps about that.

11,084. Do you mean that £4 or £5 is the average amount of the account due by a seaman engaged in the whaling?-I never made any calculation about it but I should think it would be somewhere about that.

11,085. In what way are your accounts with these men kept? Is there an account kept in the name of each man?-Yes. [Produces book.] There [showing] is the account I have been referring to of the 'Camperdown.'

11,086. You have a ledger for each ship?-Yes.

11,087. And this account shows the whole transactions for 1865?-Yes.

11,088. This [showing] is the account of Hercules Hunter, Lerwick, who was engaged in the seal fishing of 1865 at 50s. per month, and 2s. 6d. per ton of oil-money; 2s. 6d. per 1000 skins, and 2s. 6d. per ton of bone?-Yes.

11,089. The first entry on March 4, 1865, consists of two advances of 20s. each to account of his first month's pay, and 3s. as his subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, for which Mr. Leask was agent?-Yes.

11,090. The next entry is half of note to Mr. Hay for rent, £1, 18s. 11/2d. Had Mr. Leask undertaken to pay his rent?-Yes.

11,091. The following entries, to the amount of £2, 0s. 31/2d., are for outfit at starting, consisting both of clothing and private stores?-Yes.

11,092. Then follows-insurance, 5s. 10d.: what is that?-The insurance is on the outfit, and it is charged over and above the month's advance. The advance is made by the owner of the ship; and what is over that is at risk, which is covered by insurance. We get it done for them, and they refund the premium.

11,093 Do you employ a broker to effect an insurance on all your advances of that kind?-Yes.

11,094. Then the 5s. 10d. is the amount of insurance paid by you upon the sum of £3, 10s., which was the amount of cash and goods advanced to this man at the time of, or after, his sailing?-Yes.

11,095. There is also a balance of the old debt: was that not included in the insurance?-No.

11,096. On April 27 the man returns from his voyage and receives a payment in cash of 20s., with certain additional supplies; and on 28th April you enter to his credit the sum of £30, 8s. 4d. for wages, oil-money, and skin-money due to him upon that voyage?-Yes; that is the first payment.

11,097. His account runs on from 2d May till 4th December of the same year, when it is settled, during which time he has been upon a whaling voyage?-Yes.

11,098. At the commencement of that voyage on 2d May he receives £5 in cash?-Yes; that is to account of oil-money.

11,099. On 8th May he receives £5 in cash; on 16th May, £3; November 1, 3s.; November 18, 2s.; and on November 1 also there is £1, 16s. entered as having been paid at Dundee: that would be advanced by the shipowners there?-Yes.

11,100. On November 22d he receives £8 in cash, and a balance was paid on December 4 of £18, 8s.?-Yes.

11,101. The rest of the debits in that account consist of supplies for himself during the voyage in the captain's account and supplies to his family of meal, sugar, soap, tea, and other items; and the total amount of his credit for wages, oil-money, bone-money, for the two voyages, was £58, 19s. 2d.?-Yes.

11,102. In that case the settlement took place in December?-Yes, the final settlement.

11,103. The whaling voyage would come to an end in November?-Yes, not sooner; so that the man had only been at home about a month when he was settled with.

11,104. But during all that time you had in your hands the proceeds of his first successful sealing voyage?-Yes, except what he had got. I think he got £19 in cash out of the £30, besides his goods up to the 16th May.

11,105. And the balance of £11 remained in your hands as a security for the advances he was getting up to the settlement in December?-Yes.

11,106. Then, on November 20, he was credited with the additional sums due for the whaling voyage, amounting to £28, 4s. 10d.; so that, in addition to supplying him with goods, upon which you had your profit you were, during all that time acting as his banker?-No; he had got £19 to account by 16th May.

11,107. But to the extent of £11 you were acting as his banker?- Yes.

11,108. And he was not getting interest for it?-I think he should have paid interest.

11,109. Not when you had £11 of his in your hands?-No; but we charged him no interest when we advanced him more.

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11,110. But you charged insurance upon the goods he got, and you had your profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we had to lie out of the money, for some time. We might have lain out of that money for eight or nine months.

11,111. Had you sold him these goods at a cash price, and not at a credit price?-At a cash price; we have only one price. We make no difference between cash and credit.

11,112. Was the oil-money that is credited to the man on 20th November the first payment of oil-money?-It was the first payment of oil-money for the Davis Straits voyage.

11,113. When was the second payment of oil-money made?-It is credited on 19th February 1866.

11,114. It only amounted to 15s.?-Yes. I don't believe that we had received the first money at the time when we paid the man, so that we had no money on hand.

11,115. Take the case, now, of a man living in the country, George Georgeson in Walls. He receives, in like manner, on 4th March, £2, 13s. in cash, and he gets supplies, and is debited with insurance in the same way. On April 27 he has the same amount to receive for the sealing voyage, and on May 17 he gets £12,10s. in cash; on September 9, £1 per order: was that an allotment note?-It was money to account.

11,116. It would be advanced to his wife upon the security of the voyage?-Yes.

11,117. On November 20 there is £5; and £1, 6s. for cash at Dundee and Aberdeen. He is credited with the same amount of wages as Hunter, and on December 4 he is credited with second payment for the sealing voyage £3, 15s. Then, on December 26, he receives £28, 2s. 6d. in cash; and the rest of his debits consist of supplies to his family in sugar, tea, aqua, canvas, and other small article, but to a very small extent. I suppose the supplies taken out in that way by people living out of Lerwick are usually less than in the case of those who live in town?-Yes. It costs them both expense and trouble to get them from Lerwick.

11,118. There is also the case of James Twatt, Sandness, who is debited on March 4 with £2, 3s. to advance; and then on March 4 and 9 he gets supplies to the amount of £3, 38. 71/2d., upon which there is charged 6s. 51/2d. of insurance. On April 27, on his return from the sealing voyage he gets 20s. in cash, and he is credited with £20, 10s., for wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes; I think he was only at the sealing voyage.

11,119. Then, on May 27, he gets £7 in cash; July 10, 15s.; September 11, £2; and on December 4 he is credited with second payment for sealing voyage, £2, 5s. On March 6 he receives 2s. in cash; and on the same date he is settled with, by receiving £3, 1s. 3d. in cash. The total proceeds of that voyage to him were £22, 15s.?-Yes.

11,120. How many ships had you in 1865?-I think we had seven.

11,121. Were they all as fortunate as this one?-No, none of the others were so fortunate.

11,122. Was 1866 as good a year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes.

11,123. I see that in that year Adam Moar had £36, 2s. upon the two voyages; of that he got in cash at starting, and the amount of the Shipwrecked Mariners' ticket, 33s.; on May 2, cash 40s.; having been credited on that date with the proceeds of the sealing voyage, £21, 9s. 6d.; May 8, cash 10s.; May 17, cash 32s.; May 19, cash 6d.; August 16, cash 8s.; and on June 22, 1866, there is an entry to G.R. Tait's account, £3, 2s. 10d.: was that a previous account due to Mr. Tait, which you had paid for the man?-Yes.

11,124. Then, on August 16, there is cash 8s.; October 22, cash £6, captain's account £1, 7s. 6d.; cash at Dundee for travelling charge, £1, 6s. I thought the engagement was, that when the men were carried past Lerwick, their travelling expenses home were paid to them?-That is generally the case.

11,125. Then why is that sum charged against the man?-It has been something additional; it was advanced besides what was paid by the owner.

11,126. On October 23 he is credited with the proceeds of the whaling voyage, and on October 31 his account is settled by a cash payment of £4; the difference between the previous cash payments and this balance being made up of supplies to himself and the family-Yes.

11,127. The second payment on both voyages was made on January 1, 1867, and he got £4, 8s. 1d. in cash?-Yes; that was when he came in to settle.

11,128. Was 1867 a good year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes; both 1867 and 1868 were pretty fair years for her, but not so good as the former years.

11,129. Have you anything to show the state of accounts in 1870 or 1871?-Yes. [Produces book for 1871.] It is not the case that we do not keep accounts with the men, because we pay them in presence of the shipping master, and then they pay their accounts to us.

11,130. Do you keep your accounts now in a different way from what you did when the book was current upon which I have been examining you?-No; they are kept quite in the same way.

11,131. I see that the account for 1871, which you have produced, is not yet settled?-No; it is for the 'Polynia,' another ship.

11,132. Why have you selected these two ships?-Because the one was previous to the compulsory settlement at the Custom House, and the other was not.

11,133. Have you not had the 'Camperdown' since?-Yes.

11,134. Were the ''Camperdown' and 'Polynia' the best paying ships in this year?-The 'Camperdown' was, but not the 'Polynia.'

11,135. And the 'Polynia' was not the most successful ship since 1868?-No, nor before.

11,136. Take the account of Peter Blance, Yell. His wages were 20s. per month, 1s. per ton of oil, and 2s. per thousand seal-skins?-Yes, he was a young hand.

11,137. He gets an advance at first of 4s. as a payment to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund; then he gets an outfit, £3, 2s., upon which 2s. 1d. of insurance is charged. On April 17 he receives in cash 5s., and at that date he is in your debt for £1, 7s. 8d., after crediting him with wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes.

11,138. That balance is carried on to a new account in which there appear certain supplies, and he is credited with his share of the summer fishing, and also with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item of 2s, making up £16, 1s. 3d.; and also with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item of 2s. making up £16, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.

11,139. On November 29, there is entered to balance rent account, £12, 14s. 8d. Is Blance one Leask's tenants?-His mother was a tenant of Mr. Leask.

11,140. Then the £12,14s. 8d. was applied to square off that account?-Yes; it was put to his mother's credit.

11,141. The sum due to Blance on April 17, on the sealing voyage, was £3, 14s. 4d.?-Yes, that was the money paid to him at the Custom House, before the shipping master.

11,142. When was it transferred to your hands?-He would come down to the office and pay it back. I cannot say exactly at what hour he came, but he would come on the same day.

11,143. Then the £12, 14s. 8d., which was due for rent, was transferred by you to the rent account?-Yes, by his own order.

11,144. Was it done at your request?-It was at his mother's request.

11,145. How old is Blance?-He is about 20.

11,146. Had you had any correspondence with his mother about transferring that money to her amount his mother had been in arrear, or some time. She was a widow, and Mr. Leask had been rather obliging her by allowing her to remain where she was for some years, when she was not able to pay any rent. Then when her son was grown up, and was able to pay the debt, he did so.

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11,147. Here [showing] is the account of William Johnston, jun., Yell: was he another young hand?-Yes; he was in the same position as Blance. Both their fathers were drowned a few years ago, and their mothers lived in Yell.

11,148. In May, the balance against him was £4, 14s. 11d., and that includes the balance from a previous fish ledger, of £3, 1s. 6d.?-Yes; he was at the Faroe fishing and was rather unfortunate.

11,149. That is carried into a new account in May, and after allowing him his share of the summer ling fishing, £14, 13s. 9d., and his second payment of oil-money, the balance carried to the rent ledger against him is £8, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.

11,150. That was for his mother's rent in the same way as in the case of Blance?-Yes; these are the only two cases of the kind in Mr. Leask's transactions with his tenants.

11,151. Here [showing] is the account of Magnus Arthur, Yell: was he also a young hand?-Yes.

11,152. Last year he got advances to the amount of 19s. 10d., on which 1s. 7d. of insurance was charged; afterwards, on April 17, he received in cash 5s., and £1, 16s. 11d. at settlement in November; the amount on his receipts from wages, oil-money, and skin-money, being £4, 19s. 10d.?-Yes.

11,153. I see that in the case of Hugh Arthur, Nesting, the amount due to him in wages, oil-money, and skin-money, was £7, 15s. 6d., in April 1871; and the account at his debit for previous advances was £7, 11s. 8d., part of which consisted of a payment of £2, 5s. upon an advance note in favour of J. Dalzell?-Yes.

11,154. That sum of £7, 15s. 6d. was paid, I presume, before the superintendent at the Custom House?-Yes, after deducting the £2, 5s., the master's account, and the shipping master's fees.

11,155. And then Arthur walked down to your office and paid the amount of his account?-Yes, he came down and settled the account he was due to Mr. Leask for advances.

11,156. Is that done universally by the men when there is an account due by them?-Yes, after receiving their money they walk back to the office and pay their accounts.

11,157. Do they generally accompany you down to the office or the clerk who sees them paid?-One of us sometimes accompanies them to the office but we don't wait for them; they come back when they please.

11,158. Do you always desire them to come down to the office and settle their accounts when they leave the shipping master's office?-Of course, they understand they have to pay their accounts. We don't require to tell them that. The men are very honest on the whole, and don't require to be asked to pay what they are due.

11,159. Except in the case of a man like Robert Grains?-That is the only exception I have known since 1867.

11,160. I suppose if any of them showed a reluctance to settle their account at the time, then either you or the clerk who attended at the shipping master's office would remind them of it and ask them to come down to your shop to settle?-Except in that one case, I never saw even the least hint of that.

11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for oil-money?-Invariably.

11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In the agent's office now.

11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?- Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of labour.

11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes due?-No.

11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it becomes due?-Yes, a short time after.

11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be a few cases of that kind, but very few.

11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes.

11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies after they engage.

11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money has been paid?-That account has been previously settled.

11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year, he gets it besides.

11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will trust him with it.

11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him.

11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money.

11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office, stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided the men go in the ship.

11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance note we will cash it afterwards.

11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of his advance note?-If he wishes it.

11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he receives, and he gives us back the advance note.

11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires.

11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often, and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and after he re-engages he gets his advance.

11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things are kept in one account.

11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered.

11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so; but we don't mark down anything that is paid for.

11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them.

11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very often.

11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so receiving from you?-Very often.

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11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money; and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault.

11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or cheaper than they could get them elsewhere.

11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment of 30s. or £2 being made to him at the same time, on account of his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept, and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office, may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does.

11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his money there and then?-I have no doubt he does.

11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now at any rate.

11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?'

11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages in 1865, which shows a total of £1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the end, of £1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of £416, 18s. for goods sold?-Yes.

11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should say that it does.

11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the whaling?-For most of the vessels it was.

11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the men?-They were above the average.

11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They bought more than they otherwise would or could have done.

11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a considerable sum of money.

11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great portion, of the accounts were contracted.

11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted.

11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the case I have given.

11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other book we have got.

11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account, and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at the Shipping Office.

11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you for goods?-No, not if they were in debt.

11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally.

11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the whaling trade.

11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash, although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very accommodating in the way of giving advances.

11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the sums which have been received by the men before the shipping master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course, increases the account against the men, which they have to pay after receiving their money before the shipping master.

11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can guess it to be and I have a very good idea.

11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably. They don't require to be asked to do so.

11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last 3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole.

11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping Office at all

11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your office and settled with you immediately after they had received their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that man came on the same day also after some reflection.

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11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes, we adhere to the same form that we used before.

11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement before the shipping master.

11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all.

11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No.

11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes. I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with more if they had come forward.

11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay their debts.

11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is due.

11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?- It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town.

11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All that were there at the time went before the superintendent.

11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be eight or ten, and sometimes only one.

11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they come of themselves.

11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think every is indebted to some shopkeeper.

11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing.

11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is opened for the children when we are employing them.

11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of money.

11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these transactions?-No.

11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them.

11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it in that way for goods?-Yes.

11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't keep separate accounts with a man and his wife.

11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods, and very often they have nothing to give for them except their hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great disadvantage.

11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a family when they are in your employment?-I should not call them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing.

11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether, including persons of 12 to upwards of 50.

11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are employed for about five months in the year, from May to December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly. They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July, August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish.

11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday.

11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman working among the fish, or for a strong boy.

11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and Saturday evening is the pay.

11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they could not live without them.

11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our work-book.

11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with what provisions they get.

11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each person?-Yes.

11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening, except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and don't balance at all until the end of the season.

[Page 276]

11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season, may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check. We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than having accounts.

11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it because the people cannot live without supplies as a general rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions.

11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have accounts?-Yes.

11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing establishments?-No; there are a good many employed incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only those of the people are employed most regularly.

11,248. How are these people paid who are employed incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods. The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid.

11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what their wages are to be.

11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and we prefer that they should not take any.

11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very often.

11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s. perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less.

11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we have had to refuse goods.

11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we don't wish them to take all in goods.

11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a case we don't pay them the money.

11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week, how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if they choose to take goods, that is their own fault.

11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some cases.

11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive.

11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many cases.

11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop.

11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can get the best value.

11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are very few under fifteen; think only two or three.

11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?- Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have very few boys.

11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit accounts with you?-Yes.

11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes, men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all grown-up lads, except two or three young boys.

11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid monthly.

11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it.

11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe last year. He did not have so many in previous years.

11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as agent for other two.

11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread per day.

11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and stores.

11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship, equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea, coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel.

11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure one ton of fish.

11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread, ballast, and so on.

11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the vessel has returned.

11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as outfitter?-Yes.

11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?- Yes.

11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle, how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of course, get all the money due to them.

11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year.

11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half: that goes to the owner?-Yes.

11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen.

11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called shares-men?-Yes.

11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to their quality.

11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is ascertained at the time when he leaves.

11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men, deducted from their own account, or from the account of the crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account; each man has his own account, separate from the account of the crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf of the company, and then everything else is put into the account for the men.

11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually, showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of various things?-Yes.

11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in the book.

11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is made up.

11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows £481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes.

11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the charges?-Yes.

11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry fish, £70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt.

11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-£7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish were at Whiteness and had to be brought here.

11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.; but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they had 6s. 3d. each.

11,294. That was £8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes.

11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to £2, 2s. 3d., and then the score money is charged at £24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?- The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number of scores each has taken.

11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland £6, and Faroe £5, 2s. 8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here and at Faroe.

11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes.

11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains £347, 14s. 7d., the vessel's proportion of which is £173, 17s. 4d., and the rest is divided among the crew according to their different shares?- Yes.

11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as 55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate.

11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall be deducted.

11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one half of the net proceeds of the speculation.

11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing, never in printing.

11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral agreement, not a legal one at all.

11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of Trade.

11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years.

11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements.

<Adjourned>.

SCALLOWAY; TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 1872

GILBERT TULLOCH, examined.

11,307. Are you the shopkeeper at Scalloway for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I am.

11,308. They have a curing establishment here, and buy a quantity of fish?-Yes.

11,309. They also have a shop in which goods of all descriptions are sold?-Yes, all that are generally sold to fishermen.

11,310. Have you the entire management of their business here?- Yes.

11,311. You take delivery of the fish from the men, and enter the quantities received in the fishing book?-I settle with the men for the fish as I receive them, and I charge the amount against my employers.

11,312. You are now speaking of the winter fishing?-Yes.

11,313. In that fishing each transaction is separate and distinct?- Yes. The men are paid over the counter as they deliver the fish, for all that we purchase in Scalloway. They don't go into any account at all. Where the fish are delivered at other places, they are settled for at Lerwick.

11,314. Then with the regular summer fishing you have nothing to do?-No; Messrs. Hay have curers at the islands for that.

[Page 278]

11,315. They have factors at Burra and other places who receive the fish, and the settlement for them takes place at Lerwick?- Yes.

11,316. Your duties consist in managing the business the shop, and selling the goods there, and in purchasing fish or oil which the men voluntarily bring to you?-Yes.

11,317. You have nothing to do with the men who are engaged to fish in the home fishing?-Nothing.

11,318. When you take delivery of a quantity of fish from the men, is no part of that entered in your books?-If the men have taken up advances before, then these enter the books; and that is done occasionally.

11,319. But when it does enter your books, it is entered as a separate transaction at the time in the fisherman's account in the ledger?-Yes.

11,320. That is to say, you have a ledger for the shop transactions in which each man has an account?-Yes; and if he wishes any part of his fish to go to his account, to help in clearing it off, I enter it there.

11,321. But when you put it to his account, the quantity of fish delivered at the particular time is stated, with the price, and the sum is put into the money column?-Yes.

11,322. Have you many transactions of that kind with the men at Burra?-Yes; principally in winter.

11,323. In spring and summer do they sometimes come to you with fish?-They deliver them at the stations, and they are settled for at Lerwick, with Messrs. Hay.

11,324. But do they sometimes endeavour to carry out transaction with you for ready money or for goods?-Occasionally; when they require it, they will come to us with a few fish, to get groceries or any things they want. They are not prohibited from doing that if they wish it.

11,325. Messrs. Hay do not forbid them, when they are engaged for the season, to come to you for any supplies they may want, and to give their fish in exchange?-That is not forbidden, so far as I am aware.

11,326. And in these transactions with fishermen, from whatever place they come, is the payment generally made in goods or in money?-Part in both. They get what goods they want, and their balance is paid in cash. I cannot say that more is paid in goods or in cash.

11,327. Is not the great bulk of the fish paid for by out-takes?- Generally.

11,328. About how many men are entered in your ledger with whom you deal in that way?-I could not say exactly. They come from different places, and could not state the exact number.

11,329. They are not merely the men who are employed by Messrs. Hay for the summer fishing, but many others besides?- Yes.

11,330. Will you have 100 of these accounts in your ledger?-I could not say exactly.

11,331. Is there it separate ledger kept for the Burra men?-Yes.

11,332. Do they keep all their accounts here?-They keep accounts with me for all their dealings here, but they deal both here and in Lerwick.

11,333. In what season of the year do you make settlement with the men who have accounts in the way you have described?-The Burra men all settle at Lerwick. They only get their advances from me, and they settle at the end of the year with my employers.

11,334. Is a note of their advances handed in to Lerwick?-Yes.

11,335. Do you settle here with others than Burra men who deal with you?-No; they are all settled with at Lerwick. The whole of the accounts are settled there, unless any man wishes to pay any provisions he has had himself. He has it in his option to pay these things to me if he likes; but that is only done in very rare cases.

11,336. Do you sometimes pay money for fish here?-Sometimes.

11,337. In what cases does that occur?-In the case of it neutral man who is not connected with the Lerwick business.

11,338. Then it is only the men who are in the regular employment of Messrs. Hay who settle at Lerwick?-Yes.

11,339. When you have a customer who fishes independently, or for another firm, and who runs an account in your book, he settles with you here?-Yes. He keeps an account with me, and I settle with him.

11,340. At what season of the year is that done?-It is generally at the end of the year, at the usual settling time in Shetland.

11,341. How many men of that description do you suppose there may be in your books,-men who either sell their own fish all the year round, or sell their fish to you cured?-There are very few of them.

11,342. Most of your customers are in the regular employment of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

11,343. And most of them, I suppose, including the Burra men, are bound by agreement for the year to deliver their fish to that firm?-They are not bound by agreement, so far as I know.

11,344. But they are engaged for the summer to fish for the firm, in the boats of Messrs. Hay?-They are.

11,345. The bulk of the accounts kept in your shop will be with such men?-Yes.

11,346. You were not asked to bring your books?-No.

11,347. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash you pay to these few men with whom you settle here?-I could not give an exact account of it. I have bought about £100 worth of fish, ling and cod, since May last up to this date.

11,348. Are you the largest purchaser of fish in that way in Scalloway?-I could not say; there are other fish-buyers here.

11,349. There are other parties who buy fish in the same way, and some other parties who employ boats of their own for the summer fishing?-There are a few, but not many.

11,350. Mr. Nicholson has some?-Yes.

11,351. And Mr. Tait has one?-I suppose he has but he does not do much in that way.

11,352. Is the amount you have stated the ordinary amount which you purchase during the same period each year?-It is sometimes more and sometimes less. It just depends on the success of the fishing.

11,353. How much of that would be purchased in the summer and autumn?-Not much in the summer. The greater part will be purchased in winter.

11,354. In summer the men are delivering their fish at Burra, so that less fish are brought to you at that time?-Yes.

11,355. Are your supplies of goods got from Lerwick from Messrs. Hay?-Some come from Lerwick, and some come direct from the south.

11,356. Are they invoiced to you at wholesale price, or at the price at which you are expected to sell them?-They are invoiced at the wholesale price and I fix the retail price myself.

11,357 What price do you pay for fish to the neutral man who brings them to you in that way?-It is not always the same; sometimes it is more and sometimes less.

11,358. What has been the price this season?-It depends upon the size of the fish we get. For ling and large cod I paid 6s. a cwt up to the commencement of this year, and since then I have paid 7s.

11,359. Do you generally pay that in money?-No; part in goods, and part in money.

11,360. Do your books show in what proportion the payments consist of money, and in what proportion of goods?-We keep no account of what is paid directly over the counter. I charge my employers with the amount of fish which I purchase from these men, and settle with the men at once as I get them.

11,361. Are the fish brought to the counter?-No, they are weighed in the store. There are people there for that purpose.

11,362. When you are weighing them and taking delivery of them, do you ask the man what he wants?-Yes. He gets whatever goods he wants.

11,363. Then when you have taken delivery you go with him to the shop, and give him either goods or money?-Yes; we give him the goods, and then the balance in cash.

[Page 279]

11,364. If it is not convenient for you to go yourself, suppose you have a shopman who will act in the shop in your stead?-We have a man for weighing, the fish, and he comes up with the account of the fish he has got, and then we settle with the men according to the weight which he gives in to us.

11,365. Does the man who takes in the fish enter their weight in any book at the time?-No; he marks it down upon a board, or anything, and comes up to the shop as soon as he has weighed for a boat's crew, and gives in the weight. We enter that in our book, and pay the price to the men.

11,366. Does the man who weighs the fish always come up to the shop?-Yes.

11,367. He does not send a note of the weight he always comes himself?-No, he always comes himself.

11,368. Do you ever pay the price altogether in cash-Sometimes; if the men want no goods we pay it in cash.

11,369. Is that a usual thing?-It is not usual; but sometimes it is the case.

11,370. Is there any particular reason for paying it all in cash when that is done?-If the party wants no goods, then he gets the cash.

11,371. Or if he wants the cash for any particular purpose?-Yes.

11,372. I suppose he will generally tell you if he wants the cash for any particular reason?-Sometimes he does.

11,373. And you make no objection to giving it to him?-No, not if he wants it.

11,374. Do you give him the same price in cash as in goods?- Quite the same; it makes no difference; we have a fixed price.

11,375. Is it entirely in the choice of the men whether they take goods or cash?-Yes.

11,376. But is it not part of the system that the payment is for the most part taken in goods?-That depends upon the parties themselves.

11,377. Do you mean to say, that if the fishermen were all to combine and ask for their payment in cash, they would get it, or would that necessitate any change in your system of carrying on business?-I suppose they would get it; but we might not have enough cash to pay out such large sums as that. We are not near any bank, and we might not have sufficient cash in hand for all that we required, if the payment was wholly in cash.

11,378. Would you find it inconvenient to pay for these fish altogether in cash?-Yes, unless my employers were to give me sufficient cash to meet their demands.

11,379. Your arrangements are made upon the footing, I suppose, that the bulk of the payments are to be taken in goods?-That is understood, although there is no arrangement made about it.

11,380. There is no arrangement made with the men, but it is understood that a great proportion of the transactions are to be settled for in goods?-If the men get as good articles from us as they can get from any other party, I don't see why they should not take payments in that way.

11,381. It might very well happen, I suppose, that even if you did pay in cash, the man would take his cash and spend it at your shop?-Yes; and sometimes that is done.

11,382. But, in point of fact, your business arrangements are made upon the footing that the great amount of the fish sales are to be paid for in goods?-There is no arrangement at all.

11,383. But your own business arrangements are made on that footing? You don't keep a sufficient supply of cash to meet the requirements of a ready-money trade?-No, that has not been the practice.

11,384. Then is it not an exceptional case, and a mere favour to the fisherman, to pay him in money?-It is in his own option to take either goods or money. If he wants the goods he gets them, and if not we pay him in cash.

11,385. But is it not the case that a man is not paid in cash unless he expressly asks for it?-He is not paid in cash unless he wishes it. He gets whatever goods he requires, and the balance is paid over to him in cash.

11,386. The first thing settled between you, after fixing the price, is what goods the man is to take?-Yes.

11,387. And after that, if there is any balance over, it is paid to him in cash?-Yes.

11,388. But, as a rule, he takes out his goods first?-Yes.

11,389. Do you suppose that three-fourths of the value of the fish sold are paid for in goods?-I could hardly say. We never keep any account of that.

11,390. What is the usual quantity of fish brought to you at one time in winter from one boat?-It varies very much.

11,391. Will it be two or three cwts.?-Sometimes more, and sometimes less.

11,392. Would five cwt. be a good catch for it day in winter?- Yes, it would be a good catch.

11,393. Are there many ling caught in winter?-Not many. There are very few tusk caught then. They are chiefly cod, and some ling. There are three classes of cod. There is a large class, and a small class, and a middle size, and the price is different. The price for small cod is now 5s. per cwt., but the large cod that can be sent to Spain are always paid for higher. The price for them is 7s. now.

11,394. Suppose a man were bringing five cwt. of cod to you, he would get, I suppose, about 30s. for it, if it were equally composed of large and small cod?-Yes. That would be divided among the men in the boat,-say three or four men.

11,395. That would be about 7s. 6d. each?-Yes, supposing the price to be at the rate you have mentioned.

11,396. Would it be usual for the man to get the whole of that 7s. 6d. in goods?-That would depend upon himself. Perhaps he might require two-thirds of it in goods, and the other third in cash.

11,397. Would 2s. 6d. be about the largest sum would get in money upon such a catch of fish?-It might be more or less.

11,398. But he would sometimes get it all in goods, I suppose?- Sometimes.

11,399. Do you remember any case in which he got it all in cash?-There have been several cases of that kind. I was looking in the shop books before I came here, and I picked up some papers in the shop showing how much cash they get. [The witness handed in papers containing the following accounts:-

<Robert Goodlad>.

11s. 71/2d. Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., £0 1 61/2 Loaf, 4d.; sugar, 11/2d. 0 0 51/2 Soap, 21/2d., sulphur, 11/2d., 0 0 4 Soda, 11/2d.; cotton, 1s. 6d. 0 1 71/2 Cotton, 0 0 3 Porter, 5d.; biscuit, 3d.; cash, 6s. 9d., 0 7 5 £0 11 71/2

<Thomas Goodlad>. 11s. 71/2d. Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 61/2d.; £0 1 101/2 Tobacco, 8d.; oatmeal, 1s. 3d., 0 1 11 Soap, 21/2d.; sund. 51/2d., 0 0 8 Cotton, 11d., 0 0 11 £0 5 41/2 Cash, 0 6 3 £0 11 71/2

<William Pottinger>. 8s. 3d. Tobacco, £0 1 0 Tea, 0 0 8 Cash, 0 6 7 £0 8 3

[Page 280]

<Laurence Smith>. 8s. 3d. Oatmeal, 1s. 101/2d.; tobacco, 6d. £0 2 41/2 Stamps. 2d.; paper, 21/2d., 0 0 41/2 Soap and sod, 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., 0 0 61/2 Shoe-brush, 6d, 0 0 6 Handkf., 10d.; loaf, 4d.; syrup, 3d., 0 1 5 Soda and thd., 11/2d. 0 0 11/2 Acct., 1s.; cash, 1s. 11d., 0 2 11

<P. Lesslie>. 17s. 5d. Rum, 6d.; cash, 1s., £0 1 6 Do. 9d.; tea, 1s. 2d., 0 1 11 Tea, 1s. 2d.; sugar, 6d., 0 1 8 £0 5 1 Cash, . . 0 12 4 £0 17 5]

These are notes made at the time when the settlement was made with the men.

11,400. Do you remember when these settlements took place?- No. I merely found these papers in the shop, and brought them here. It may have been about three or four weeks ago, or it may have been longer.

11,401. Has there not been a much larger amount of cash paid in these cases than is usual in such transactions?-It is larger than in some cases.

11,402. And you might have found other slips or notes in which the whole amount was taken out in goods?-I don't know about that. But that is the way in which we settle, and the fish are afterwards charged to my employers.

11,403. Is it not often the case that there is not more than 1s. paid in cash on a transaction of 8s. or 10s.?-Sometimes that is the case.

11,404. Is it not oftener under 1s. than over it?-I could hardly say about that.

11,405. Is it not oftener under 1s. 6d. than over it?-I should say that it is.

11,406. Can you say that, in half the cases that occur, there is a cash balance paid at all?-No. I would not say that there was so little cash paid as that.

11,407. But you could not say to the contrary?-I could not say either the one way or the other.

11,408. In the case of a separate and distinct sale of fish, such as we have been speaking of, the price is paid in full, and there are no deductions of any kind to be made?-None.

11,409. The boats and the lines are the men's?-Yes, unless some of them may have got credit for their boats and lines.

11,410. Do you hire out boats for the winter fishing?-No; the men have boats of their own.

11,411. But they may have got the lines at your shop, and they may be standing against them there?-Yes, either standing against them, or they may have settled for them with Hay & Co.

11,412. In that case you may retain the price of the winter fish to meet the price of the lines or boat?-Yes, if the men wish that to be done.

11,413. Or if you have a heavy debt against the men, you may retain the price of the fish whether the men choose or not?-That is never done by me.

11,414. Has there never been an arrangement or understanding by which a portion of the fish delivered to you in that way is retained on account of the lines or boats supplied to the men?-No, not in winter.

11,415. Have either you or Messrs. Hay & Co. any interest at all in the boats used in the winter or spring fishing?-I have none. I have only a share of one herring boat. I receive a salary from Messrs. Hay.

11,416. Have Messrs. Hay any interest in the boats used in the winter fishing?-No; the boats belong to the men, and they have them on their own account.

11,417. Have you an interest in several of the boats engaged in the summer fishing?-No. As I have said, I have only one share of a herring boat.

11,418. You have no share in any of the smacks that go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

11,419. Are you not part-owner of some boats employed in the summer fishing?-No.

11,420. Were you ever so?-No. I have never had any share of any boat except the herring boat that I have a share in now.

11,421. Have you the management of Messrs. Hay's curing establishment here?-Yes.

11,422. There is a large curing establishment here, with beaches?-Yes.

11,423. How many people are employed there in the fishing season?-It depends on the success of the fishing in the summer, and the amount of fish we get.

11,424. How many were employed last year?-I could not say exactly. Perhaps about ten or a dozen were employed about the beaches at Scalloway.

11,425. Had you the superintendence of the beaches at Burra?- No; there were men appointed for that.

11,426. With regard to the ten or a dozen employed at Scalloway, were those men, women and boys?-Yes.

11,427. Were they paid weekly wages?-Yes. They were paid every Saturday, either by me or at the shop.

11,428. Were they paid in money every Saturday?-No, they had to get supplies during the week; and at the end of the week any balance they had was paid in cash.

11,429. Was there generally a balance due?-It was very rarely that there was. They had generally to get supplies to the full amount of their wages.

11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?- Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and then their wages are placed to their credit and if they have anything to get it is given to them.

11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these parties?-Yes, every one has an account, and when he gets advances these are put to that account.

11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but not a great deal.

11,433. Will their average wages be 8s. or 9s. a week?-Not so much. In summer the women get 10d. a day, and in winter 1s. We have a few people employed in winter, but not so many as in summer.

11,434. Are you engaged in the hosiery business at all?-No.

11,435. Do you purchase any quantity of butter and eggs from the people in the district?-Not a great quantity. There are no cattle in the village to give butter, but I buy a small quantity from people in the district.

11,436. Is that paid for in goods?-Yes.

11,437. Do the Burra people bring butter and eggs to you sometimes?-Very little. They sometimes bring a few eggs in summer, and they always get goods in return for them.

11,438. Do the Burra people bring all their eggs to you?-No; they are at liberty to sell them to any person they choose.

11,439. When settling time comes, what have you to do with the men who have accounts in your books?-I send in a note of each man's account to Messrs. Hay, at Lerwick.

11,440. Has the man checked his account in any way before you send it in?-If they choose, they can get their accounts read over to them. Some of them have pass-books, while others have only their accounts read over.

11,441. Do they all get them read over to there?-Generally they do. If they have any doubt about their account, they get it read over; but I have very few disputes of that sort with them.

11,442. Is it the general practice to read over the accounts to the men?-If they wish it.

11,443. But do they generally wish it?-Some of them do, and some do not.

11,444. I suppose the majority do not?-Yes.

11,445. Are they rather careless about these things?-Yes.

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11,446. Suppose you read over a man's account to him, and he objects to any of the items, how could he get that corrected?- Sometimes a man may forget, and he would come to recollect afterwards; but it is very seldom that that occurs with us.

11,447. If he has not a pass-book, has he any means of checking his account at all?-Yes; by his own memory.

11,448. But when you have an entry in your own book, and he says it is wrong, do you correct that entry according to his memory?- No; we would not do that.

11,449. You try to convince him that he is in error?-Yes, and we generally succeed.

11,450. Do you always succeed?-I would say so but we have had very few cases of that sort.

11,451. Don't you think it would be much better if the men would all take pass-books?-Yes; it would prevent any doubt about these matters.

11,452. But I suppose it would give you a good deal more trouble?-It would.

11,453. Is there anything to hinder you from paying ready money when you are settling the price of fish as they are delivered?-If the law was that, we would have to do it the same as others.

11,454. But is there anything to prevent you from doing it, although there is no law on the subject?-There is nothing to prevent us.

11,455. Would it not facilitate your business a good deal?-Yes.

11,456. You could carry on your business with less trouble to yourself ,-only the men might perhaps spend the money at another shop, instead of yours?-Yes.

11,457. Is the price paid for winter fish, when they are bought by you in small quantities, less than is usually paid for summer fish #at settling-time?-No, it is the same price.

11,458. Have you the management of the oyster fishing here?- There are very few of them caught. I have not the management of that, but I sometimes buy a few.

11,459. Do you sometimes buy lobsters?-Not many.

11,460. Are they all paid for in goods in the same manner, and to the same extent, that you have mentioned?-Yes, just in the same way as the others.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, LAURENCE MONCRIEFF, examined.

11,461. You are a baker and provision merchant in Scalloway?-I am.

11,462. You are not a fish-merchant at all?-No.

11,463. Do you purchase hosiery to some extent?-I purchase fancy hosiery to a small extent,-principally veils and shawls, and things of that kind.

11,464. Do you usually pay for it in goods from your shop?-Yes.

11,465. Do you pay for it to any extent in money?-No. I never give money for hosiery.

11,466. Is it always understood that people selling hosiery at your shop are to take goods in exchange?-That is always understood.

11,467. Are you often asked for money?-No. It is always the understanding that they are to take goods but I have been asked once or twice for money.

11,468. Do you employ any people to knit with your wool?-Yes.

11,469. Are they paid in the same way?-Yes.

11,470. Are they employed entirely in knitting, or do they sometimes work at other things?-Some of them depend entirely, or almost entirely, on knitting; but when they require money for their rent or for any particular article which they cannot get for knitting, then, I suppose they have to work at something else.

11,471. Or perhaps they sell their knitting to a shop where they can get what they want although you do not deal in it?-Yes.

11,472. They may go to Lerwick and sell it for soft goods?-They may; but I keep a small assortment of soft goods.

11,473. Therefore they can get most of the articles they want in your shop?-Yes.

11,474. If they cannot get the articles they want are you aware whether they have sometimes been obliged to sell the goods they have got for hosiery, in order to procure what they want?-A case or two of that kind has come before me. I remember one occasion, when I gave a woman some provisions for some soap or something, when she was in a difficulty for the provisions; but that is the only case of the kind that I remember clearly about. Perhaps there may have been more.

11,475. What was the nature of that case?-I suppose she had bartered her knitting for the soap in some place. She was requiring provisions, and could not get them, and she exchanged the soap to me for provisions.

11,476. Was that long ago?-It is some time ago but I don't remember the exact time.

11,477. Did that case strike you as being in any way peculiar or extraordinary?-No. Very few of the hosiery dealers keep provisions, so that at the time the woman had no other way of getting them.

11,478. What price did you give the woman for the soap which she sold to you?-I think I gave her as near my own selling price as I could. It was a small quantity only that she offered to me and it was not worth making any difference upon it. That is generally what I do in cases of that kind which happen to come before me.

11,479. Do you generally give them as near as possible your own selling price for the soap?-Yes.

11,480. Just enough to allow yourself a little commission for your trouble?-No, I don't think I could have any commission on the like of that; at least I don't make a practice of charging a commission in cases of that kind. I don't like to do it if it can be avoided, but in cases of great necessity I sometimes find it my duty to do so.

11,481. You sometimes find it your duty to relieve people's necessities in that way?-Yes, sometimes, if I can manage it.

11,482. But don't you give them a lower price than that which they have nominally purchased the soap for?-I don't think I do that.

11,483. Do you not buy the soap so as to make some little profit upon it when you re-sell it?-The amount of the transactions in that way is so small that I can hardly say. I try to avoid doing it at all; and unless in a case of extreme necessity, I would not do it. It is merely in a case where it is required in order to save life that I do anything of the kind.

11,484. How many women do you usually employ in knitting with your own wool?-I have had very few employed for some time back, perhaps only two or three.

11,485. Do they keep accounts with you for what they want?- Very few of them. I just pay them at the time; but I have a few accounts that I run with some of them.

11,486. Are these accounts both with women who knit with your wool, and with women who knit with their own wool and sell their goods to you?-It is principally with those who knit with my wool that I have accounts.

11,487. What was the name of the person from whom you bought the soap on the occasion you have mentioned?-I think it was either Margaret or Catherine Irvine.

11,488. Was that a very exceptional case?-I should think so.

11,489. Have you not frequently bought from women the goods which they had got in shops at Lerwick?-No, not frequently. That is the only case I remember of distinctly. I remember something being said about the women bringing goods for sale at other times, but I have no distinct recollection about that. It would hardly do for me to make a practice of that, because I have to live and support my family by my profits.

[Page 282]

11,490. But if the women were disposed to sell the goods to you at such a price as would enable you to derive a profit on your re-sale of them, that would be quite legitimate and fair?-Yes; but they could not do that.

11,491. Why?-Because it would cause them a considerable loss. I suppose the goods are priced at an advance before they get them, and they could not afford to sell them to me at a less price than they had paid for them themselves.

11,492. You said you had heard of other cases being mentioned, in which women had offered their goods for sale: what have you heard about that?-I have heard some of my family speaking about the women getting their goods exchanged for provisions, or something of that kind.

11,493. Is your shop generally attended by yourself, or by some of your family?-It is generally attended by mny brother-in-law; he is not here.

11,494. Can you say that he has not bought goods in that way from knitters?-I think not. I don't think he would do that without letting me know about it.

11,495. Do you know of any person here who purchases goods in that way from women who have got them for their hosiery?- There may be such persons but I am not aware of any one who makes a trade of it, or who could make a trade of it. There may be some who do that in order to oblige a woman or to relieve her necessities, but I don't think they could make a practice of it. I have heard of Mrs. Tait doing it in that way.

11,496. Would you show me where you keep your accounts with these women?-Yes. [Produces book.] It is only a small part of that book which I use for that purpose. This [showing] is an account of a woman who dresses for me. Besides what is entered to her account, she is sometimes paid by goods which do not appear in the book at all.

11,497. I see here an entry: 'To amount from line:' do you give lines?-I sometimes give a line to her when I do not care about entering it in the book. I should like better to pay her at once what I was due to her, if I could possibly do so.

11,498. What was the purpose of giving the line?-Just as a security.

11,499. She did not want the goods at the time, and you did not want to open an account?-No.

11,500. You would rather that these women would take the goods at once than have the trouble of keeping an account with them?- Yes.

11,501. What was the form of the line you gave?-It was just a credit note, bearing the name of the party and the amount for which they had to get credit from me.

11,502. Is the amount of that note understood to be paid in goods or in money?-It is never understood to be paid in money. I could not give the same price in money as I could give in goods.

11,503. Does the line express whether it is to be paid in goods or in money?-No.

11,504. Do you issue many of these lines?-Not many; very few require them. They generally take out goods to the full amount at once.

11,505. How did you happen to enter that line in your book?-The woman was getting fully more work from me than she could take out in goods at once, and she preferred to continue working for me and to get things for her family as she required them.

11,506. I see that the bulk of the entries in these accounts are for provisions?-Yes, and for such other goods as we keep-tea, sugar, loaves, butter, meal, flour, soda and other things.

11,507. Where do you get your supplies of worsted?-Principally from Edinburgh or Leith.

11,508. Do you buy any Shetland worsted?-No; I cannot get it to buy.

11,509. Have you tried to get it and found it difficult?-Not often. It was only last spring that I began the hosiery trade at all.

11,510. Do you import all your worsted direct from Edinburgh, or do you get any of it through the Lerwick houses?-I get it all from a wholesale house in Edinburgh.

11,511. What is the quality of the worsted you get from there?-It is generally the finest quality, but not mohair. I don't deal in mohair at all. We generally use two qualities for veils, and these qualities are distinguished by numbers, but I don't remember the numbers just now. I buy it by the pound, and I think it costs me from 5s. to 8s. per pound.

11,512. Do you sell the worsted to knitters?-Yes, when I have an extra supply of it.

11,513. Are you paid for it in hosiery articles or in cash?-In either way; I give it for either when I do sell it. When they have a quantity of hosiery to sell, I prefer them to take an assortment of goods, because provisions are a thing that most people have very little profit upon. If they take the whole price in meal or in anything of that kind, I would not have much profit upon it.

11,514. You would rather have them to take some of the price in soft goods?-Not in soft goods, but in an assortment of groceries.

11,515. When a woman brings her hosiery to you first fix the price, and then, I suppose, you ask her what she wants?-Yes.

11,516. When you come down to a balance of 1d. or 2d, how do you settle that?-If they want nothing else, I often give them the balance in cash. It is the understanding that they are to take the price for their hosiery in goods, but still I don't hesitate to give them 1d. or 2d., or any small thing in money.

11,517. You may give them a penny, or a postage stamp, or a package of sweeties, or anything of that sort?-Yes.

11,518. Have you any accounts with fishermen?-No; they generally run their accounts at the places where they are employed. I would not like to run the risk of supplying them. I think those who are getting the benefit of their fishing ought to run the risk of giving them what supplies they want. I deal with a good many of them in ready money for bread and provisions; not to a very large extent but just in a general way.

11,519. Do you find that they always have ready money with which to pay you for provisions and bread?-Most of those who deal with me have.

11,520. Do you think businesses such as yours would be improved if the fishermen were paid in ready money for the fish they take?-It is possible they might.

11,521. Don't you think you would have a better chance of succeeding in business if the fishermen did not have such long credits?-It is very likely.

11,522. They would have more ready money in their hands throughout the year?-Some of them would.

11,523. At what season of the year have you the largest receipts in your ready money business?-In summer and harvest, I think; but I attribute that more to the weather than to anything else. The country people cannot get to the place in all weathers; they have often to come by sea, and then if they leave home at all it is generally just as easy for them to get to Lerwick as to go to Scalloway.

11,524. Still I don't see how that accounts for your ready money business being larger in summer and harvest than at other periods of the year?-The boats can come from the west side and from the islands in summer more readily than they can in winter, when, perhaps, they cannot get away for weeks. It is chiefly upon people in the country that my business depends. The village of Scalloway is small, and the business from it is also small, so that it is only when the weather is suitable that my customers from the country cannot in to deal with me.

11,525. Do you have a larger amount of business from your immediate neighbours in the spring than at other seasons?-No, I have not noticed that. The business is so mixed up that I can hardly say.

11,526. You don't think the fishermen round about you come to deal with you to a larger extent after settling time in spring than at other periods of the year?-I am not aware of that.

[Page 283]

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CLEMENTINA GREIG, examined.

11,527. You live at Braehead, Scalloway, with your sister?-Yes.

11,528. Your mother died about two years ago a very old woman?-Yes; she was 95.

11,529. Have you supported yourself for a long time by knitting?-Yes; I began to knit thirty-three years ago, and since then I have not earned a sixpence by anything else, except my own family work. My mother also depended on me.

11,530. What kind of knitting do you do?-Shawls and veils.

11,531. Have you ever got any money for your work?-I have sold several shawls and veils to gentlemen who were travelling through the country in July and August, and got money for them; but I never got a penny in all my life from any of the merchants in Lerwick. I was the first individual in Scalloway who commenced to knit, and I have taught many of the people here.

11,532. Do you knit with your own wool, or with worsted that is given out to you?-On several occasions, within the last three years, I have bought some Scotch worsted; but before that I always spun the wool myself, and sold my own goods. I never knitted a shawl or a veil for a merchant in my life.

11,533. Did you think it better to knit with your own material?-I think it paid a little better when we got a price for it, but it was very seldom that a sufficient price was given. For shawls that I used to get £1 for from gentlemen in the south, the merchants never offered me more than 17s. or 18s., and that was paid in goods.

11,534. Who did you knit most to?-To Mr. Robert Sinclair. I scarcely ever sold a shawl to any other merchant than him.

11,535. Have you sometimes asked him for money?-Yes. Two years ago, when my mother was dying, and my sister was brought in with a broken limb, I took a shawl to Lerwick, in order to get a doctor. I went to Mr. Sinclair with the shawl, and he asked what I wanted. I said I was selling it in a case of necessity, and that I wanted 18s., and he offered me 17s. I asked him, if he would give me a little money if I sold it to him for 17s., but he said he would not, and he rejected it. I sold the same shawl, when I came back, to Mr. Garriock, Reawick, and I got £1 for it in money from him.

11,536. Does Mr. Garriock buy shawls for sale?-No. He told me he had got an order from some ladies for such work; and generally when he gets an order he buys one or two of these things from me, and sends them off to his friends, but he is not a merchant.

11,537. The shawl which you sold for £1 would be a large fine shawl?-Yes. I have got as high as 25s. in money for them.

11,538. How long does it take you to make such a shawl?-When I spin the wool myself it takes me a month, but with clean worsted I will make it in about three weeks.

11,539. How many cuts does it take to make a shawl of that sort?-It takes 32 cuts of Shetland worsted to make a shawl of about 22 or 23 scores, 21/2 yards square.

11,540. Where do you buy the wool that you spin?-I often buy it in the shops in Lerwick when they have it to sell.

11,541. Do some of the merchants in Lerwick sell the wool?- Yes, when it comes in. The poor people who bring it from the country sell it for meal and goods, and the merchants send it out again. I have bought it from Mr. George Laurenson for the last six or seven years. He gets the best of it from Unst. His shop is in Lerwick, beside Mr. Sinclair's.

11,542. Do you buy that wool by the lb.?-Yes; we pay 1s. 6d. for the finest wool, and half pound of that makes a shawl. It will produce 32 or 33 cuts, and make such a shawl as I sold for £1. I last bought wool from Mr. Laurenson in July of last year. I got 11/2 lbs. at that time at 1s. 6d. a lb. When I am busy I buy some Scotch worsted and knit it too.

11,543. Is the Scotch worsted what is called Pyrenees wool?-Yes.

11,544. Where do you buy it?-From Mr. Sinclair but when we sell him a shawl he will not give us worsted back upon the shawl.

11,545. Not even Scotch worsted?-No. I must pay the money for worsted, whether it is Scotch or Shetland. The Scotch worsted sells by the oz., at 10d. or 1s., according to the fineness of thread. It takes 6 oz. of that worsted to make a shawl for which I will get £1.

11,546. Have you bought any Shetland worsted?-I have always bought the wool and spun it myself.

11,547. How long will the spinning of half-a-pound take?-It will take me a week to spin it sitting very close at it and sleeping very little.

11,548. Would it be cheaper to buy the Scotch worsted?-Yes; but articles made of it do not sell so well. The Shetland worsted is preferred, as being much better.

11,549. Do you think you will have a larger profit on a shawl, the wool for which you have been a week in spinning, and in knitting which you have been employed another four weeks, than on a shawl which you make of Scotch worsted?-Yes.

11,550. When you buy the Scotch worsted and make a shawl of it, how long will it take you to knit it?-I will make it in less than three weeks.

11,551. What will be the difference in the price which you get for the shawl at the end of that time?-When I have sold a shawl made of Scotch worsted to gentleman or lady who happened to be in the country in July or August I have got as much for it as for one made of Shetland worsted, because the one is as fine as the other, but they prefer the Shetland thread to the Scotch thread. The merchants in Lerwick will not buy a Scotch shawl from me. They put out worsted of that kind to be knitted for themselves, but they will not buy such things from us. They will only buy the real Shetland work.

11,552. Have you ever done any knitting in silk?-No.

11,553. Is it as a favour that the merchants sell you worsted when they do sell it?-No. They are quite willing to sell it if we have money to pay for it.

11,554. Have you asked for worsted in return for your hosiery?- Yes. I asked it from a Mr. Sinclair, and he would not give it. I have asked that both from himself and from some of the men in his shop, and they said it was not a customary thing, and they could not give it.

11,555. Have you ever offered to take a lower price for your knitting if you were paid in money?-Yes. In the case I have mentioned, I offered to take a less price if they would give me 1s. or 2s. in money; but they refused, and I took home my shawl, and did not sell it to them.

11,556. In that case did you ask for the whole price in money?- No; I only asked him if he would give me a little money upon it. The price I asked for the shawl was 18s., and I offered to give it to him for 17s. if he would give me some money.

11,557. Did he price the shawl at 20s.?-No; he priced it at 17s. I priced it at £1 and I got that for it when I took it home.

11,558. Have you ever been obliged to exchange any of the goods you got from the hosiery merchants?-I never exchanged anything for provisions, because when parties came to the country in July and August, I would often get two or three shawls sold to them for money.

11,559. Do you know that people who knit have sometimes been obliged to exchange soft goods for provisions?-I believe there are some who have been under the necessity of doing that.

11,560. Do you know any people who make a practice of buying goods from women in that way?-No, I don't know any one who makes a practice of it.

[Page 284]

11,561. Are there not some people who go about the country hawking goods, which they have bought from the women?-I believe there are; but I do not know their names, because I have never been in the habit of dealing with them.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, EUPHEMIA RUSSELL, examined.

11,562. You live with your mother at Blackness, Scalloway?- Yes.

11,563. Your mother is an old-woman and bedridden?-Yes; she is seventy-two.

11,564. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes, or by out-door work when knitting cannot be sold for money.

11,565. Would you give your whole time to knitting if you could get money for your work?-Yes.

11,566. How long are you obliged to go to out-door work in the year? Two or three months every year?-Yes; if it was all put together, it would be two or three months.

11,567. Do you just go to that when you want money?-Yes.

11,568. Is it in the fields or the fish that you work?-Sometimes in the fields and sometimes at the fish.

11,569. For how long have you been in the habit of knitting?-For about twenty-five years.

11,570. Have you often been paid in money for it?-Never, except on an occasion when a stranger was passing, or when Mr. Garriock would take my work. He has sold several shawls for me.

11,571. Did you hear what Clementina Greig said about the quantity of worsted required for a shawl?-Yes; I agree with her evidence about that.

11,572. Have you bought wool yourself?-Yes; I have bought wool from Widow Nicholson, who lives near here, and also from James Williamson, when he had a little to spare. I paid 1s. 6d. for his wool, and 1s. 4d. for hers; but that was not used entirely for shawls. I took the best of it for shawls, and the rest was used for other purposes.

11,573. Did you spin that wool yourself?-Yes. When my mother was in health she spun it; but I spin it for myself now.

11,574. Do you take as long to spin it as Clementina Greig said?- Yes, quite as long.

11,575. Do you sometimes get a little money for your hosiery?- Not from the merchants in Lerwick. I never ask for it there, because it is not the custom to give it.

11,576. Do you keep an account with any of these merchants?- No. I just sell my goods right off, and settle for them at once.

11,577. Have you ever sold them any hosiery made of Scotch worsted?-No. I never made with that Scotch worsted; I always made my own worsted.

11,578. Have you ever had occasion to exchange any of the goods which you got from the merchants for your hosiery?-I have exchanged tea for meal with the country people round about, but nothing else. I took more tea from the merchant than I intended to use myself, and I have given it in exchange for meal several times.

11,579. Do you generally take a quantity of tea from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. When Mr. Sinclair bought my goods, as he always did when I offered them to him, he never refused to give me anything in his shop that asked from him, except worsted. I once asked worsted from him, and I did not get it.

11,580. But you got everything except worsted or money?-Yes.

11,581. Have you lately taken more tea than you required, and exchanged it for meal?-I have not done it this year, because I sold a shawl to Mr. Garriock, which supplied me with money in the meantime, and paid my rent and some other little things besides.

11,582. When you want money, do you generally get it in that way?-When I want money, I usually give a shawl to Mr. Garriock, who will sell it for me when he has the chance. If he cannot get the shawl sold at the time when we need the money, we go to out-door work; but Mr. Garriock is kind enough to let the shawl lie until he can get it sold for us.

11,583. But one way in which you get money is by selling the tea which you have got in exchange for your hosiery?-I have never sold tea for money-only for meal.

11,584. But when you have no meal, and no money with which to buy it, that is the way you take to get it?-Yes

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, MARY COUTTS, examined.

11,585. You and your sister have lived for a long time in Scalloway with your father and aunt?-Yes.

11,586. Are they old people?-Yes.

11,587 Have you and your sister been their chief support by your knitting?-Yes, and by other work as well.

11,588. What kind of knitting have you done?-Shawls and veils.

11,589. Do you knit with your own wool, or have you got it out from the merchants?-The most of it belonged to the Lerwick merchants. I knitted it and took it to them.

11,590. How were you paid for your work?-In tea and goods.

11,591. Did you ever get money?-No.

11,592. Did you ever ask for it?-Yes.

11,593. Did you never get 6d. at a time?-I have got 3d., but that was the most. I once asked 1s. from Mr. Robert Linklater, to pay for mending my boots; but it was refused. That was about eight years ago.

11,594. And I suppose that did not encourage you to ask it again?-It did not. We ceased to knit for him.

11,595. Did you ask for money from anybody else?-Yes.

11,596. Did you get a little?-Nothing except a mere trifle, perhaps 11/2d. or 2d. from Mr. Sinclair.

11,597. Was that merely a balance that you had to get on your knitting?-No.

11,598. Have you an account there?-Yes. There is an account in his books.

11,599 All your knitting goes into that account and all your out-takes go into it too?-Yes.

11,600. You are just paid in goods, with 1d. or 2d. in cash now and then?-Yes.

11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and Sandness, for that. Our aunt Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years, but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and potatoes in exchange.

11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year.

11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No.

11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the farmers?- I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say. They did not weigh out the meat and potatoes which they gave in exchange; they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt gave them. I have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four miles away, to make these exchanges. That was where most of her friends were.

11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal. The cotton would be worth 6d. it yard, or 15d.; and the meal would be [Page 285] worth 1s. I remember doing that about three years ago; but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had cost us in Lerwick.

11,606. Do you make fine shawls?-Yes.

11,607. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of 21/2 yards square?-10s. 6d.; and I have got as high 6s. from Mr Moncrieff, but the worsted was his own.

11,608. What was the cause of that difference between 10s. 6d. and 16s.?-The finer the worsted is, the more we get for knitting it.

11,609. How many cuts of Shetland worsted would it take to make such a shawl?-About 34 or 35. The shawl I got 16s. for took about 7 oz. of Scotch worsted.

11,610. How long would it take you to make it?-My sister and I are not in very good health, and we do not work very steadily, but it would be some weeks from the time we got the worsted until we returned it.

11,611. Do you know what these shawls would sell for?-No,

11,612. Have you never sold a shawl of that kind yourself?-I have sold shawls to Mr. Sinclair of our own spinning, and got 18s., 19s., and 20s. for them.

11,613. Were these shawls very much the same as that which you got 16s. for?-No, they were not so fine.

11,614. Would they be much the same as those you got 10s. 6d. for knitting?-Yes; they were quite as fine.

11,615. And you would sell them for 18s. or 20s. in goods?-Yes.

11,616. What would the wool of one of those shawls you sold to Mr. Sinclair cost you?-It would cost 1s. 6d. per lb., and 1/2 lb. would make one of them.

11,617. That would be 9d. for the wool. How long would the spinning take you in the way you work?-Perhaps more than a week. We have to go to the hill for our peats and turf, and that takes up part of our time.

11,618. Which do you think pays you best,-getting 10s. 6d. for knitting the shawl, or spinning your own wool and selling it?- Spinning our own wool pays best.

11,619. Do you sell your shawls yourself?-Sometimes; but our aunt generally goes with them.

11 620. Have you asked for money yourself and been refused it?-Yes; I was only refused it once.

11,621. What was the largest sum of money you ever got from the merchants?-3d. or 4d.

11,622. Did your aunt sometimes succeed better in getting money than you did?-Sometimes. When visitors were here she would; she always sold them to them.

11,623. But when she sold to a merchant, has she often got more money than you have mentioned just now?-No; when she sold to the merchants, and did not want to take goods for the whole, she took a line. It was from Mr. Sinclair that she got lines, and when we wanted goods we took back the line and got them. We once got lines from Mr. Tulloch also. We only got goods for them, not cash.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, ISABELLA HENDERSON, examined.

11,624. You live in Scalloway with your father and sister?-Yes.

11,625. Is your father an old man?-Yes. He is between sixty and seventy years old. He is not fit to work much, but he goes to sea occasionally in fine weather.

11,626. Do you and your sister chiefly support the family by your knitting and other work?-Yes.

11,627. Do you require cash sometimes for your rent and provisions?-Yes.

11,628. Have you a little bit of ground?-Yes. We have a small bit from the farmers during the season for potatoes.

11,629. Where do you generally sell your veils?-We just sell them to any of the merchants. We make them chiefly with our own wool, but sometimes we get worsted given out to us from Mr. Sinclair and Mr. Arthur Laurenson.

11,630. Have you accounts with these merchants?-Yes. We always had accounts when we got out worsted from them.

11,631. When you knit for them with their worsted, are you paid in goods?-Yes.

11,632. And also when you sell an article of your own?-Yes.

11,633. Have you ever got any money from them?-No.

11,634. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. It is some time ago, but I asked once or twice, and was refused. After that I was accustomed to get nothing but tea or soft goods, or anything else they had in the shop, and I did not ask for money again.

11,635. Did they ever ask you to take a less price when you asked for money?-No.

11,636. Did they never offer to give you money if you would take less for your goods?-No

11,637. Have you ever had to exchange your goods for provisions?-Often. I have done that with several people. Sometimes, when I sold my veils, I would have to take a line from Mr. Sinclair; and if I knew any person who was requiring such goods as Mr. Sinclair kept, I would sell the line to them, and they would go to Lerwick with it and get what they wanted.

11,638. Who have you bartered your lines with in that way?-I am not inclined to tell their names, because it was done to me as a favour, and they did not wish it to be made known. I may say, however, that I have given the soft goods to Mrs. Tait in Charles Nicholson's shop.

11,639. Was Mrs. Tait always ready to take your goods?-She was not very ready, but when she saw it was necessary, she would do it out of kindness.

11,640. When you dispose of your goods in that way, do you generally get the full value for them?-Not always.

11,641. You have to take a little off them in order to get what you want?-Yes.

11,642. Do you do that several times in the year?-I do it very often.

11,643. Do you know that other knitters have to do the same thing?-Very likely they do. I believe there are others who have to do it besides me.

11,644. Have you often given away your lines in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, very often.

11,645. Do you make a practice of it?-Yes, I have had to do it.

11,646. Do you get a great number of lines in the course of the year?-Sometimes; not a great many. I just get them as I require them.

11,647. What do you get for the lines when you part with them in the way you have mentioned?-I have got money, and sometimes provisions.

11,648. Have you got money for a line lately?-Yes, in harvest. It was a line for 7s.

11,649. Did you get 7s. in money for it?-Yes; but when the people came to take the goods, if they did not get them to their own mind, I had to make up whatever loss they had upon them.

11,650. Was that the bargain, that if they did not get their satisfaction in goods, you were to give them back some of the money?-No, not the money. I was just to give them something in addition. Of course, they could not expect the money back from me.

11,651. Did you give them anything back?-They have not sought for it yet, and I cannot say whether they will ask for anything or not.

11,652. Have you always got the full amount of the line in money, when you gave it in that way?-No; not altogether.

11,653. Have you sometimes given it for less than the sum named in it?-Yes.

11,654. For 6d. or 1s. less?-That just depended on the amount of the line. I could not say particularly.

11,655. Did you get the full value for all the lines [Page 286] which you parted with last harvest?-Yes, I got the full value for them, but it was as a favour to me that I got it.

11,656. Can you mention any case in which you got less for a line than the sum that was named in it?-I could not remember any particular case where that happened with a line; but I have often suffered a good deal of loss by the soft goods. On one occasion I lost 1s. 6d. upon 6s. 6d.

11,657. Did you get 6s. 6d. worth of soft goods, and give them away for 5s.?-Yes.

11,658. Did you get 5s. in money?-No; not altogether in money, but partly in meal. They said the cost price of the articles would be 5s, and they gave me that value for them.

11,659. Have you ever given anything back, when the people that you gave the lines to were not able to satisfy themselves at the shop?-Yes, once. I gave them the worth of 1s. in other goods that I had got from the shop.

11,660. What was the value of that line?-I cannot say. The lines I have got have run between 3s. and 10s.; but I could not say the exact amount of that particular line.

11,661. Do you know any people who make a trade of buying goods from the knitters, and selling them through the country?-I could not say that any person makes a trade of it. I don't think any person would like to do that.

11,662. Are there not some women who hawk goods through the country, which they have got in that way?-I know there are and I have done that myself more than once.

11,663. What have you done more than once?-Taken the soft goods which I got at Lerwick, and gone through the country and sold them. The last time I did that was three years past in spring, and I had done it before.

11,664. Was it in a bad year when you did that?-Yes.

11,665. And you wanted potatoes?-Yes.

11,666. Had you to travel far in order to get them?-Between two and three miles.

11,667. Had you tried often before you got your goods sold?-Not often. Of course, I had spoken to the people before I took the goods to them. I did not go out on the chance of selling them.

11,668. Were the goods taken as a favour to you, and not in the ordinary way of business?-Yes, it was done quite as a favour.

11,669. But do you know any person who travels through the country regularly, and hawks goods which have been bought from the knitters?-I don't know any person particularly who has done that.

11,670. Have you ever heard that such things were done?-I cannot say that I have.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ANN LEASK or INKSTER, examined.

11,671. You live in Scalloway?-I do.

11,672. Have you sometimes knitted hosiery goods for sale?-Yes; I have knitted some for Mr. Sinclair.

11,673. Have you been paid for them in money or in goods?- When I knitted goods for sale I was paid for them in money. I knitted some for Dr. Hamilton, Bressay, and I was paid money for them. He had got an order for them from the south.

11,674. But when you sold them to merchants, you were paid in goods?-Yes; I never asked them for any money, because I did not require it. I always took what I required in cottons, cloth, and so on. Besides, I knew it was not the practice to give money.

11,675. Did you sell your own knitting?-No. I knitted for Mr. Sinclair, except what I got orders to knit from the south.

11,676. Have you an aunt who knits also?-Yes.

11,677. Does she sometimes sell shawls made with her own worsted?-She did formerly, but she does not do so now.

11,678. Do you think the merchants make any profit by the shawls they buy?-I cannot say; perhaps they do.

11,679. They say they sell them to the merchants in the south at exactly the same rate as they buy them here. Do you know of any case where a merchant has sold a shawl at a great profit?-No.

11,680. Do you know of a merchant buying a shawl from you for 15s. or 16s., and then selling it within a few minutes after that for double the money?-No. I do not remember any case of that kind.

11,681. Did you ever hear of such a case?-Not so far as I recollect.

11,682. Did you or your aunt ever sell a shawl at 15s., or about that price, which was sold immediately afterwards, in the same shop, to a gentleman for about twice the money?-I never saw that done. My aunt may have done so for anything I know, for I was not always with her. I was in service for some time, and I cannot answer for what she may have done at that time. My aunt's name is Ann Williamson; she lives in Scalloway.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH IRVINE or SMITH, examined.

11,683. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,684. Have you been in the habit of knitting?-Yes, a little. I have knitted for several people, but chiefly for Mr. Sinclair. I have knitted for him for eleven years, and I keep an account with him.

11,685. Do you get what goods you want out of his shop?-Yes. I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him.

11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven years?-Yes.

11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I always got what I asked.

11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes. The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s.

11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing.

11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s.

11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am aware.

11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I did not.

11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards.

11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more than I asked.

11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?- No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on.

11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr. Stewart.

11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store.

11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it, as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It was the same to her as money.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined.

11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way.

11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat.

11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr. Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it.

11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles.

11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and spring when the men go to fish in the bays.

11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes.

11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons.

11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are delivered to you?-Yes.

11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get them.

11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price.

11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very little in soft goods, except at times.

11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as the men prefer it themselves.

11,711. Do you run accounts with the fishermen for supplies at other seasons of the year?-Sometimes, when they are a little hard up in the summer time, I give them a little supply either of meal or tea, or anything else, to oblige them; but I don't like to do that to a great extent. I cannot do it very well.

11,712. Do the fishermen generally go for their supplies in summer to the larger merchants?-Yes; those who go to the Faroe fishing generally do so.

11,713. Why is that?-Because when they are out at the fishing for the larger merchants, it is better for them to take their supplies at their shops.

11,714. But why could they not deal with you as well?-The larger merchants are more able to give them credit as they are fishing for them. In summer and harvest I generally sell, for cash when I can get it, and I am not very able to give long credits.

11,715. Do you do much business for cash in summer and harvest?-Not much; about £2 or £3 a week is generally the most.

11,716. And I suppose the men and their families generally have to go to the large merchants where they can get credit at that season?-At that season of the year they do.

11,717. Do you think you would have a better business if the men were paid for their fish as they were delivered?-I suppose I might.

11,718. They would not require to get credit then?-No; but the men who go to Faroe in the smacks have to make long voyages, and they could not be paid in that way.

11,719. But there are a number of men at the haaf in your district, are there not?-No, not in my district. There is scarcely a boat in my parish. The boats which go to that fishing are farther north-at Northmaven and Sandness.

11,720. Then the Faroe fishermen in your parish are only home twice in the summer?-Yes; they generally come home twice, once in June, and then about the beginning of harvest but some do not return until September.

11,721. Therefore they could not, in that case, be paid at the delivery of their fish, so as to have cash to deal with a merchant who is not employing them?-They could not.

11,722. Do you think you would have a better chance of business if they were settled with when they came home from Faroe, instead of having to wait for a good many months for a settlement?-I don't know. It takes so long a time to get the fish dried, that I don't think they could very well be settled with when they came home.

11,723. They might be settled with then if they were paid according to the weight of the fish when they were landed?- Yes; but I could not say whether I would do any better business in that case or not.

11,724. Do you think you would do a better business if you had some boats of your own?-Yes.

11,725. Why?-Because I would be getting more fish.

11,726. But would you do a better business in your provisions and goods?-Yes, I might be a small bit better.

11,727. Would that be because the men would come to you for supplies?-Yes; and then I would have more fish too.

11,728. Are the men at liberty to sell as many fish as they please to you in winter and spring?-Yes, at any time of the year.

11,729. Then you could engage a boat's crew in your district without any restriction?-Yes; there are no bound men there.

11,730. Are there many merchants in the parish of Sandsting who do about the same extent of business as you?-I think most of them do more business than me, because it is longer since they commenced, and they are better in the way of it.

11,731. Do you mean that they have got a larger connection?- Yes; and a better locality.

11,732. Are most of them engaged in buying fish?-No; there are scarcely any of them about me who are in the fishing trade, except Messrs. Garriock & Co. They have almost all the fishing business in that part of the country.

11,733. Have they the largest shop business too?-Yes.

11,734. Whom do you sell your fish to?-To Mr. Harrison generally. We sell them to him as soon as they are dried at the end of the year.

11,735. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if we want cash.

11,736. If you don't want cash, do you take goods for your shop?-Yes, if we want them; but if we want cash he gives it at any time either in advance or at settling time.

11,737. But he does supply goods in a wholesale way to merchants?-Yes; he sometimes supplies me with little meal and tea, and general groceries.

11,738. Do you not get all your supplies from him?-No, not the whole of them. I think I get as much from Glasgow as from him; generally from two houses there.

11,739. What do you get from Glasgow?-Tea and sugar and coffee, and general groceries.

11,740. Do you also get the same articles from Harrison & Sons?-Yes.

11,741. Do you pay the same price to both?-They are nearly all about the same price, except that the goods from Glasgow may be about a halfpenny per pound less.

11,742. Is that after allowing for freight?-No; it is taking them at cost price.

11,743. Do you write for these things to Glasgow direct?-Yes, when I get them from there.

11,744. When do you order them from there?-My [Page 288] dealings in that way are not always at the one time. Sometimes in the spring I order them fortnightly, and sometimes monthly, and sometimes at longer intervals. They are sent to Lerwick in the steamboat, and brought across to Scalloway by carts, and I come here with a boat for them. I think it is about six weeks since I got any tea from Glasgow, and it is a month since I got some other stuff.

11,745. Did you come from Sandsound to Scalloway for the tea?- No; I took it out the north road Weisdale and all overland.

11,746. Did you come to Scalloway on purpose for that?-No; the north carts took it out.

11,747. Do you think the tea which you got in that way cost you more when it was delivered than the tea you got from Harrison & Sons?-No. I think that, taking it on the whole, and after paying the freight it would come to just about the same.

11,748. Were the qualities the same?-Yes, as near as I could judge.

11,749. Do you sell both kinds of tea at the same price?-Yes, at 8d.

11,750. How much of your fish that you sell to Harrison & Sons will be paid for in goods?-About one half as near as I can judge.

11,751. Do you receive the other half in cash?-Yes.

11,752. Was that the case last year?-Yes.

11,753. When do you settle with Harrison & Sons?-I settled with them last year on 1st October for the fish which I had got in the previous winter and spring.

11,754. Do many of the shops in your parish deal with Harrison & Sons in the same way?-I think none of them do. None of the other merchants there sell fish to them, so far as I am aware.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, AGNES TAIT, examined.

11,755. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,756. Do you live alone?-Yes.

11,757. Do you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; I cannot work at anything else. I knit fine shawls and veils. I have knitted for the last six months to Mr. Moncrieff with his worsted, and I have been paid in goods. Before that I knitted with my own worsted, and I sold my work to any merchant in Lerwick, generally to Mr. Sinclair. I never asked any money from him, because we knew that it was the rule that we would not get it. I wanted it for many purposes; but I would not have got it even though I had asked it.

11,758. But you could not get on without some money, I suppose?- No. I sent some shawls and veils south for money with which to pay my rent.

11,759. Did you get enough money from them for all that you wanted?-I was often at a loss for money, and then I had to sell tea and other things which I had got in Lerwick for my hosiery. I sold tea and soft goods to any neighbour who was kind enough to take them.

11,760. Such as Mrs. Tait?-No, I never sold any to Mrs. Tait.

11,761. Did you sell your things often in that way?-Yes, very often.

11,762. Every month?-I don't think I did it every month.

11,763. Did you do it two or three times every year?-Yes; oftener than that.

11,764. How much goods did you sell in that way?-If I sold a shawl for about 18s. I would get 18s. worth of goods, and of that a good deal was tea-perhaps one pound or a pound and a half.

11,765. Would you sell all that tea?-Yes.

11,766. And something else besides?-I don't recollect of selling anything else except the tea.

11,767. Did you always bring home some tea from Lerwick in order to sell it?-Yes.

11,768. And did you always find some of your neighbours ready to buy it?-Yes; there were always some of them kind enough to buy it from me.

11,769. Did you sell it at the full price that it had cost you?-Yes.

11,770. You did not sell it under its value?-No.

11,771. You did that very often, because you had no other way of getting money?-Yes.

11,772. Do you ever get any lines from the merchants in Lerwick?-No.

11,773. Do you always settle for your hosiery articles at once?- Yes.

11,774. Would you rather have money than be paid for your work in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, I would rather have money; but we knew that we would not get it, and therefore we never asked it.

11,775. Do you think you could make a better use of the money than you do of the goods?-Yes, a great deal better.

11,776. You think you could turn it to better account?-Yes.

11,777. Do you think you take more out in soft goods than you require?-We often take out things which we are not requiring. We cannot get anything else and therefore we have just to take out the goods.

11,778. Can you mention anything which you have taken out when you were not requiring it?-No. I afterwards sold it; I did not keep it.

11,779. What are the goods you have sold?-Cottons.

11,780. Anything else?-No; but I have not sold any cotton for the last twelve months.

11,781. Did you ever sell cotton or any other goods under the price you paid for them?-No, I generally got the value. I did not sell these things about Scalloway; I went up occasionally to see some friends of mine in the west side of Sandsting, and I took the goods with me.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, WILLIAM HARCUS, examined.

11,782. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-Yes; I have a small business here. I have carried on business as a merchant here for between four and five years.

11,783. Have you many transactions with the fishermen here?-I have, in buying and selling groceries and general goods, but not in curing fish.

11,784. Do you run any accounts with fishermen?-No; unless perhaps for a few days, until they come back again to settle. It could not be said that I do credit trade. It is professedly a cash trade.

11,785. Have you any disadvantages in carrying on your trade from the system of barter which prevails in Shetland?-Perhaps if the whole trade were done in cash, there might be some advantages in some respects-that is to say, if there was money always coming to the fishermen at the end of the season, or when the settlement takes place.

11,786. If that were so, you think a merchant carrying on a cash business would be able to increase his receipts?-I think so.

11,787. Is it your opinion, from your own experience, that a ready-money business is limited by the want of money in the hands of the fishermen and tenants in the district?-I think it is. I think if there was money there would be more trade done in a ready-money way than there is.

11,788. Are you aware that very little money, compared with the amount of their earnings, passes into the hands of the fishermen?-I have no means of knowing that exactly; but I don't see much money, among the fishermen. What money we get is principally from sailors returning from the south, and, of course, a little from the fishermen after settling time.

11,789. Do you find that your business is larger after settling time than at other times?-Last year it was larger, because there was a good Faroe fishing. This year I don't think there has been any difference.

11,790. Do your books show that there is a larger [Page 289] cash business done after settling time?-No, my books don't show that. I don't enter cash transactions in them.

11,791. How do you know that the business was larger at that time?-Just by noticing the daily or weekly drawings.

11,792. Did you keep notes of your weekly drawings?-I did at one time, but I have been so busy lately, and so much away from home, that I have not got that attended to.

11,793. How long is it since you kept notes of your weekly drawings which would show whether your business increased or not in the spring?-I think it was only in the first year that I was in business that I did so; but I can recollect pretty well about the average amount of my weekly drawings. In a small business like mine we can depend a good deal upon the memory for that.

11,794. And so far as your recollection serves you, you think your weekly drawings were larger at that period?-Yes. When there has been a good fishing, and the men have something to get at the settlement our drawings are usually larger after that.

11,795. Do you think that shows that the men prefer, when they have money in their hands, to deal with you rather than to deal with the fish merchant who employs them?-I don't think it does; at least I could not say that it does, because the fish merchant who employs them might be having a larger cash return at that time too.

11,796. At all events you may fairly entertain the opinion that you would have a better chance among the fishermen if a cash system were general?-I think so.

11,797. If, for example, the fishermen were paid by weekly, or fortnightly, or monthly payments, for their fish delivered during the summer, do you think you would be more likely to obtain an additional share of their custom?-If that were possible, I might; but I don't think it would be possible to pay them at such short periods, because it would occupy so much time. The fishermen would have to come in and wait perhaps whole days before they could be settled with, and I don't think that would be a good plan for them at all.

11,798. If a note of the fish is taken at the time when they are delivered, would there be any difficulty in settling at the same time?-I never considered that; but I think there would be a difficulty in settling with the fishermen every day when they landed their fish.

11,799. In winter and spring they are settled with every time they deliver fish?-Yes; but the quantity delivered then is comparatively small. Sometimes in summer the fishermen are working ten or twelve miles away from where the curer is, and of course, to come in and be settled with every week, or even every month, would be a great hardship. They might lose very good days when they could be more profitably employed at the fishing. I think quarterly or half-yearly settlements would be as much as could be managed.

11,800. You have not had any experience yourself in settling with fishermen, either before you began business here or since?-No. I have a few men fishing lobsters, but they are not worth speaking about. I think there are only three crews' of them, and I settle always with them when they bring up their fish; but the trade is so small that there is no difficulty in settling with them then.

11,801. How long does that fishing last?-It is only carried on during the winter; and it was arranged that they should come fortnightly with the lobsters, and settle fortnightly, when the weather would permit them.

11,802. Do you do anything in the oyster fishery?-I did at one time, and I still do a little, but there are very few to be had.

11,803. How are they paid for?-In cash when I buy them.

11,804. Do you know what is the practice of other buyers-I would rather that they should state that themselves. I think Mr. Nicholson buys for cash, but I am not certain. He is present.

11,805. When you settle for your lobsters, where is the payment made?-In my shop.

11,806. In that case do the men generally spend part of the cash there and then?-They sometimes spend part of it.

11,807. Do they not spend part of it generally?-Yes; but I lay down the money on the counter, and they take it up. They have the choice either of spending it or taking it away.

11,808. Are accounts kept with any of these men?-With one of them who superintends the bringing home of the oysters, there is an account kept.

11,809. How often is that account settled?-Just whenever he wants a settlement. He always gets money with him to disburse for current expenses, and he is permitted to take from that whatever he wants for his own use; and if he requires more money, then there is a settlement.

11,810. Do you mean that you settle with him whenever he wants a new advance?-No. He always has some money of mine in his hands, and he has authority to use that both in paying the men who are fishing for me, and for his own use.

11,811. But when that money is exhausted he comes and gets a new supply?-He settles for that money, and what he has taken for his own use is put to his own account, and his own account is settled whenever he wishes to see how we stand. That is done frequently; and I have the book here which is kept with him. [Produces pass-book.] This [showing] is the cash he gets for the general account, £7, 13s. 4d., and then £10, and then £3, 17s. 2d. At that time he was in a different trade; he was collecting shell-fish. Then he buys produce, and the account is balanced at the end of October, when he has £5 still on hand to give me. Here [showing] the account balanced again, and he had £2 still on hand.

11,812. You keep that pass-book with that man; but not with the other fishermen whom he employs?-No. They just get their money.

11,813. Where are these men employed?-In St. Magnus Bay.

11,814. That is a long way from here?-Yes.

11,815. These are not the men that are paid in your shop?-The men who bring the oysters are paid in the shop, and sometimes one of these men may come along with the other man to help him to bring home the lobsters, and then they are all paid in the shop.

11,816. But not the others who do not come?-No. The man who has charge of the fishing for me takes the money with him to pay them when he goes back.

11,817. I understood you to say that when the men came with oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do but they are not asked to do it.

11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they should do so?-I think they do. I have heard them remark that they ought to spend the money where they get it.

11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling among the men?-Yes, it is a common feeling in the country.

11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in the shop where they get it?-Something like that I should not say, that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course, they are not asked to leave it.

11,821. But there seems to be a kind of understanding that they are to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem to have the opinion that they ought to do that.

11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but, of course, we are glad to get what money we can.

11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of it?-No.

11,824. Are you engaged in the hosiery trade at all?-I once bought a little, just to try the trade, but I gave it up. My experience of it was that it would not pay. Being the only one about here who gave [Page 290] meal for the hosiery, it was principally meal that was taken, and I found no profit on it.

11,825. Then that would lead you to form the opinion that it would not pay unless soft goods were taken in return for the hosiery?- Unless goods were taken on which a heavy profit was got, I did not see that it could pay me; but I tried the trade for so short a time that I could hardly say I gave a fair trial, or that I could speak so well about it as one who had tried it for years.

11,826. Do you not think it would be a more expedient system if hosiery goods were paid in cash, according to prices regulated by the demand, and that the merchants should make a fair profit upon the hosiery itself?-That is my opinion. I believe that everything ought to be paid for in cash, at a fair price to allow a profit.

11,827. Have you had many cases coming under your observation in which women have been unable to obtain the necessaries of life without bartering away the goods they have obtained for their hosiery?-I have known few cases of that kind.

11,828. Have you been induced to purchase goods from these women?-No.

11,829. Have you known parties who have done so?-No. They have been offered in my shop, but I have never bought any of them.

11,830. Have they been frequently offered?- Not very frequently; but I have no doubt, if I had begun to buy them, they would have been offered more frequently.

11,831. Do women generally expect to get the full price for the goods which they offer?-I just refused to buy them. I never came to the question of price at all, because if I had begun to buy goods in that way, my trade would have degenerated entirely into an agency for that sort of barter.

11,832. Are you aware whether there are parties in the country whose principal trade consists in purchasing goods from such women and selling them again?-I am not aware of any.

11,833. You don't know whether there are hawkers or pedlars who live in that way?-I don't know. I think it is only right for me to say that it takes a long time to settle with Shetland men owing to them not being able to read accounts, and that may account for the fact that they settle so seldom. I believe that if crew were to settle every three months, it might take them a whole day to carry through that settlement.

11,834. Is that from defective education in arithmetic?-Yes, from defective education.

11,835. Shetland men generally seem a very intelligent and well-educated class of men for their rank of life?-Some of them are.

11,836. Do you think they are further back in arithmetic than in other branches of education?-I think so.

11,837. How do you account for that?-I cannot account for it.

11,838. In what way have you ascertained that fact?-In settling with the few men that I have had dealings with.

11,839. Don't you think that if pass-books were kept regularly the settlement would become a shorter process than it is?-Yes; but many of them would not be able to read the pass-books, and of course they would be of little use to them. Still, a great many now can read them, because the boys are being better educated, and I think the country is getting ripe for a new system. I think it right you add that pass-books, as a matter of course, should be given to every one having accounts.

11,840. But suppose the parties having accounts don't choose to bring pass-books with them, and neglect to keep them up, are they not themselves to blame?-Yes; the merchants cannot help that.

11,841. Don't you think it would be as easy for the fishermen to have the price of their fish entered in the fish book at the time they are delivered, and the calculation of the whole value made at that time: the amount of each take of fish is entered in the fish book when it is landed?-I suppose so, but I have no experience of that.

11,842. Might the price not be entered as easily?-I should think so; but that will be a question for those who are engaged in the trade. I can see no reason why it should not be done; but I understand the custom of the country is to fix the price afterwards at the end of the season.

11,843. But the price might be fixed according to the current price at the end of the season?-I have had no experience on that matter, and I cannot say.*

11,844. If you don't drive a credit trade, I suppose you don't keep any books except a day-book?-I just keep a day-book and ledger, for the wholesale trade. There are no retail transactions that pass through my books at all. The ledger contains the names of those I deal with in the south.

11,845. Are the prices at which you sell provisions higher or lower than those at which they are sold in the neighbouring shops?-It would be impossible for me to say exactly; but I think they are about the same.

11,846. What is the retail price of meal just now in your shop?-It is 141/2d. per peck.

11,847. And of flour?-There are two kinds, one at 1s. and on at 13d. Meal is always 1/2d. peck dearer in Scalloway than in Lerwick, on account of the cartage.

11,848. Is there no meal brought here by sea?-Very little.

11,849. Have you many business transactions with the inhabitants of Burra?-Yes, some.

11,850. Do some of the men purchase at your shop the supplies they require for their families?-Yes, occasionally.

11,851. Do they do so for ready money, or upon credit?-Either for ready money or for eggs.

11,852. Do they sell all their eggs to you?-I don't know. I think they sell to all the grocers in the village.

11,853. In what way are their eggs paid for?-The eggs are generally paid for in barter at one price, and [Page 291] in cash at another price; but, for the last three months, I have bought them at the barter price for cash. The present price is 9d. per dozen, whether paid for in goods or cash, but they are very seldom sold for cash.

11,854. What is the kind of goods generally taken in exchange for eggs?-Everything we sell-tea, sugar, meal, bread, and soft goods.

11,855. Do you export a number of the eggs you buy?-Yes. They are sent south by the steamer.

11,856. Have there been any whales driven in here, while you have been resident in Scalloway?-There was one shoal of whales driven into the bay below this place since I came here. They were sold by auction. Mr. Garriock, of Reawick, managed the sale. The parties concerned in the capture got two-thirds of the proceeds of the oil as their share.

11,857. Are you aware that complaints are made with regard to the landlord's claim to have one-third of the oil?-Yes; there have been complaints made. I had a share in the whales that were driven ashore, and I wrote to the Board of Trade about it, but it seemed they could do nothing; at least they did not choose to do anything in the matter.

11,858. Were the whales of the bottle-nosed kind?-No. They are known by the name of caain, or driving whales.

11,859. Did the Board of Trade decline to interfere on the ground that the Crown had no interest in the kind of whale that was driven ashore?-Yes; they said the Crown had no interest in that kind of whales. We thought, as the Government claim the foreshores and beaches, the proprietors had no right to claim any share of the oil, because the blubber is never taken above high-water mark Most of the whales were killed at sea, and dragged ashore, and we thought the fishermen should have the same right to beach whales as to beach cod or ling, or anything else under the Act regulating the fishings.

11,860. Did you obtain any information at that time, as to the grounds upon which the landlords' claim for one-third of the whales was based?-I did not ascertain that they had any claim for it, other than the custom of the country, in the same way as they claim right to bind the fishermen to fish for them, and to no other. The Board of Trade did not say that the landlords had any right to claim the whales; they advised me to go to law and see; but I did not think it advisable to incur the expense of raising an action on my own account.

11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not, because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who were in debt to them.

11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such things here, but not very often.

11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been expressed to you?-Yes.

11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for everything, but I think they should settle oftener.

11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a year, in January?-I think so.

11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get money?-I don't think they have.

11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10.

11,868. Do your books show that?-No.

11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes.

11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30.

* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said-

'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off the fisherman.

'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I could not be understood to speak of anything further than my experience went.

'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement much as some say. They can do little more than save the time required to head a printed form of account, say three or four minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other purposes.

'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements occurred to my mind at the moment.

'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best advantage.

' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.'

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined.

11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church.

11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.

11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to be the case before the evidence was given.

11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood that all of them who were out of debt got money from the merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself, and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not have got it.

11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly.

11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring about a settlement with them until the end of the season.

11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot afford to pay the men.

11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a poor man.

11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has done it.

11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather.

11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292] them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you cannot expect them to go to sea properly.

11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the coast of Scotland, or in any other place.

11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra breeze of wind.

11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want of strength.

11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore, except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few.

11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of the people about here.

11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit, and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants, because the men still continue indebted to them.

11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere.

11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra purchase their own boats?-I think they could.

11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat fishing.

11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year, and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it; but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one time, and have it in reserve.

11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money. They are generally very poor and in debt.

11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's crew that stands on a different footing from the others.

11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout, healthy men.

11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly, but just the want of general employment.

11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?- Yes; I believe the greater part of them do.

11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time.

11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it is the rule to pay in goods.

11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding.

11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them.

11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they are a provident people.

11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own experience.

11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would like to have money, while others have said they were quite well satisfied with goods.

11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better principles, so far as my knowledge goes.

11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr. Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because they found it would not work.

[Page 293]

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.

11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David Dalgleish, succeeded me.

11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you retired?-About 25 years.

11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a draper and general merchant?-Yes.

11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the summer time. In some years the numbers differed.

11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton, about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera.

11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches here.

11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?- No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for himself.

11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60 to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or £200.

11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook the thing, but I always did it for the poor men.

11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?- There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it, and it is done at the present time.

11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their rents for them.

11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account, and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs. Hay.

11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr. Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in.

11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them to them at settlement?-Yes.

11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November, and it is generally same time after that before we commence to settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give them, or how we are to settle with them.

11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing.

11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or £5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower.

11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents paid in that way?-Yes.

11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were employing?-Yes.

11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two men and two boys.

11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys altogether?-Yes.

11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce.

11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No.

11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had liked?-Yes.

11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and £30 in my debt.

11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances which you make to him?-No.

11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it.

11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it.

11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?- No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with anything else.

11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway, and I sell them for them.

11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have always been under their own command, and I could not sell them without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that.

11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes.

11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing.

11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes. They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such things as they required.

11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got the most part of them from me.

11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four families, but I am not sure.

11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their supplies?-I think the most part of them do.

11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I suppose so.

11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have commonly been behind.

11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No. There are more than one half of them who always have money to get.

11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off. Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that.

11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal.

11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own.

11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men.

11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got very little profit from them.

11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?- Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year.

11,952. These are small boats?-Yes.

11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small boats are more handy than the big ones.

11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No.

11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe.

11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have got a little for it.

11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much.

11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now, but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from Dunrossness.

11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from different quarters.

11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?- A few lots, not much.

11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in summer?-As little as possible.

11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see men leaving their masters. My men might do the same.

11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them who don't do that.

11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it.

11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the counter when he brings them.

11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that.

11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish, do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?- Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another, they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else; but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can get it for that purpose.

11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay the rent for them.

11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather too much.

11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me, except their rents.

11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted through you?-I think so.

11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't know that; it is very little that I get to bank.

11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive, does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200 on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one and another of them who had money came and offered it to me.

11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good and keep me going on.

11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not understand the value of the money better in that way, and take better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every season.

11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much from me as £4 or £5.

11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something particular, and mention to you what it is?-No.

11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so unless they liked.

11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed.

11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?- He would.

11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in Shetland?-No doubt it has.

11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any.

11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it.

11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so.

11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together.

11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes.

11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes.

11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?- Yes.

11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt.

11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats.

11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling fishermen?-Yes.

11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think there was only one boat that went from Scalloway.

[Page 295]

11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co.

11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No.

11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you carried on?-Yes.

11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them.

11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I have done that out of compassion.

11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it for any particular purpose.

12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember doing that.

12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think so.

12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for lines?-No.

12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it.

12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?- I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at the same price.

12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes.

12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that way-it was hardly worth mentioning.

12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of cotton?-Perhaps 1d.

12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same price. That was very easily seen.

12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very grateful that they could get bread in exchange.

12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at times.

12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?- Yes, there are two.

12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company, as agents.

12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in them.

12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No; only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far north as Delting, and so on.

12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their outfits?-Yes.

12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men don't require supplies.

12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop during their absence?-Yes.

12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring in the market there is settlement made.

12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is written on stamped paper and each man signs it.

12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are written and are being filled up now.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined.

12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co., Scalloway?-I am.

12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr. Charles Nicholson?-Yes.

12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since Mr. Nicholson retired.

12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience, with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes.

12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence, I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1872

<Present>-Mr Guthrie.

GEORGE GEORGESON, examined.

12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I am.

12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of business is in the village in the centre of the parish.

12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The greater part of my business is in ready money transactions.

12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and they pay me once a year.

12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but I don't do anything in that way now at all.

12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?- Yes, mostly.

[Page 296]

12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a customer that you can trust?-Yes.

12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes.

12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?- There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many.

12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them.

12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good. Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every three months if possible.

12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of barter?-Not many.

12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you? Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that I buy in the year.

12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No.

12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us, if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference.

12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we really pay more for it than we get.

12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it, because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its value here.

12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in consequence of some change in the market, or some miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact, we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it.

12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak.

12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for them.

12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all.

12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because we look upon them as being the same as money.

12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes.

12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we treat them the same as cash.

12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that way?-I cannot state the amount exactly.

12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple of boxes in the season when they are being brought in.

12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two such boxes a week in the season.

12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes.

12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally about November or December.

12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I supply the men with what they want through the season until that time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure their own fish, and sell them the best way they can.

12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that.

12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to sell them, unless merely a little.

12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him.

12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.

12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They are not really bound. They have a little liberty.

12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock & Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but they are not really bound.

12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it.

12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a less price?-I don't think they would.

12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?- I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into explanations upon that point fully.

12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary.

12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get the fish from the men.

12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have.

12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?- Certainly.

12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and perhaps even more, and could not get them.

12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I ventured, and I could not get the fish.

12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from the business.

12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they sold them dry.

12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or more.

12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?- Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago.

12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I never could get them to sell them to me.

12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not sell them.

12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in the name of one skipper and crew.]

12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several, but I don't think it is necessary.

12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not matter: I could not get their fish.

12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes.

12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any one they chose.

12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They did.

12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if they made a change.

12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance, would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either in money or in goods.

12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?- From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had more power than I had with regard to the men.

12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their holdings?-They did not.

12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might.

12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock & Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them, it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the fish.

12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case about 30 years ago but it is not so now.

12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and there was some more competition.

12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing, but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above the real value of the fish under that system.

12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best bidder.

12,092. But he can do so still, only the price is now fixed according to the current rate at the end of the season?-He cannot do so exactly in every place in Shetland. The price is not understood to be known until the fish are sold, which, I think, makes the fishermen scarcely so persevering in fishing as they were when they did know the price. I think when the price was fixed at the beginning of the season, they persevered even more than they do now.

12,093. Was that system given up before you ceased to be in the business?-No, it continued after that. The thing which made the price to be fixed at the beginning was, that other buyers than the native buyers came into the market, and there was more competition.

12,094. Was there much more competition at that time than there is now?-In buying fish green there was more competition, but now the competition is very little.

12,095. How do you account for that?-Where factors have the power, it is understood that the men must fish either to the factor or the proprietor.

12,096. Do you think the factors have more power now than they had in those times?-I rather think they have in some cases.

12,097. In those times was it not the rule that the fishermen were always bound to deliver the fish to the proprietor, or to some one appointed by him?-It was.

12,098. So that, in that case, there could not be competition?- There were several people who had the chance of buying the fish at that time; but, of course, they could not get their summer fish. They might get fish during the spring season in small quantities, but that was all.

12,099. I thought you were speaking with reference to the summer fishing, when you said that in those times there was a great deal of competition, and that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes; that was the case about thirty years ago but within the last twenty years it has fallen away.

12,100. But even at the time you speak of, were not the fishermen very frequently bound to deliver their fish to the proprietors or their factors, or tacksmen?-They were bound in some places, but not so much in our part of the country as elsewhere.

12,101. The men were not so much bound in the district that you speak of when the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-The price was fixed in many cases, but not in all.

12,102. Then the fish in those times were bought from the fishermen green?-Yes.

12,103. And it was the price for green fish that was so fixed?- Yes. The proprietor never fixed the price. It would only be fixed by a buyer or it merchant.

12,104. Do you think it would be advantageous to return to that practice of fixing the price at the beginning of the season for green fish?-Where fish are bought green, I think it would.

12,105. Would it not be better for all parties if the fish were always bought green, and cured by a professional curer?-I don't think it would. There are some of the fishermen who can cure the fish as well as any professional curer.

12,106. Are the fishermen in your neighbourhood generally supplied with vats and other implements for curing fish?-Most of them who cure for themselves have implements of their own. They only require their supplies, such as lines, and salt, and food from the merchant.

12,107. I suppose these independent fishermen who cure their own fish, frequently take their lines and salt and materials for curing from you?-They get them anywhere they choose. They have much more liberty in that way in our parish than, I think, they have in any part of Shetland.

12,108. Would you say that curing by the men themselves is practised to it greater extent in your parish than anywhere else in Shetland?-Much more. Since the men began to cure their own fish they have got on well, and they have got much out of debt, and become more independent.

12,109. When did they begin to cure their fish?-It is about fifteen or sixteen years since it came to be practised to any extent; but there are it good many of them who do not cure their own fish yet. I should say there are about one half of them who sell their fish green.

12,110. Do those who sell their fish green engage at the beginning of the season with Garriock & Co.?-They sell their fish to them. They do not have any price stated at the beginning, but are settled with according to the current price at the end of the season.

12,111. Do you find that the men who are so engaged to sell their fish according to the current price at the end of the season, are less frequent customers at your [Page 298] shop than those who cure their own fish?-Yes; that must be a consequence.

12,112. Why?-Because it is understood that their supplies must come from the place where their goods are going. They are a sort of bound; they are not independent; but if they were curing for themselves, then they would have their freedom to go anywhere they chose.

12,113. Do you mean that the men who are paid according to the current price at the end of the season want to get their supplies on credit?-Of course they must get their supplies on credit at the place where they are giving the proceeds of their work.

12,114. Is there any other reason why they deal with the fish-curer for their supplies? Does a man who has money in his hand go to the fish-curer by preference for his supplies, as well as a man who has not?-Some men would go there even although they had the money, and get an advance on credit.

12,115. Do the men think it an advantage to get their supplies on credit?-Some men do, even although they paid a higher price for them.

12,116. And they might at the same time have money in the bank?-Yes.

12,117. Do you think that is a common notion among the men?- No, I don't think it is a common notion.

12,118. Are the men who act in that way men to whom you would yourself give credit?-Yes. I have sometimes given them credit for their supplies, such as salt and lines, and anything they wanted.

12,119. Would you consider yourself safe in giving them credit, even if they were engaged to deliver their green fish to Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-No. I would not like to deal with the men who sell their green fish, because I would run the risk of not getting my money from them.

12,120. But you say the men will take advances from the curer during the summer, even although they are quite able to pay for what they are getting?-Some men will do so from their natural disposition; but, as a rule, if the skipper goes to a certain place for his supplies, it is considered that his men must go there too.

12,121. How is that?-The skipper, of course, has some control over his crew on shore as well as at sea.

12,122. Do you think the skipper sometimes advises or persuades his men to go to a particular shop?-He might; I cannot say that he would not, but that is not known to me.

12,123. Do you suppose there is any understanding that it is part of the skipper's duty to guide his men to the right shop?-I don't think the skipper is tempted in any way to do that. I don't know that he derives any benefit from it. There may be a premium given to a skipper for being the best fisher; but I don't think the skippers are tampered with to control their crews as to the shops where they are to deal.

12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may choose a man for themselves.

12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen.

12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money; while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that way, because we don't consider ourselves safe.

12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish, you think you have some security?-Certainly.

12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent, and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at the time.

12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some understanding of that kind, but they are not bound.

12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes.

12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?- Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I would not get them.

12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not much more security for your advances in their case than in the case of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them.

12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts.

12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the men themselves?-Certainly.

12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering.

12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think they do.

12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them, payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think they would rather pay the money to the men themselves.

12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally keep pass-books?-Some of them do.

12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him.

12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in large quantities.

12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have much chance in the circumstances you have already described?- No; they don't have a chance.

12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular thing.

12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No.

12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not been one for some years.

12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?- No.

12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the Sandsting side.

12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that kind?-Yes.

12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they are.

12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a distance?-No.

12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across the counter?-Never.

12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no practice of that kind among us.

12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you know?-I never knew any case of the kind.

12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself, were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that point.

12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily.

12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose, or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years; in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it.

12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most part?-Yes, in cash.

12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is done in cash.

12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way.

12,159. You said it might amount to £50, but the transactions, I suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work.

12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?- Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take them, the same as in any other money transaction.

12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes; with those fishermen to whom we have advanced.

12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to them?-Yes.

12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined.

12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am.

12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk.

12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have.

12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?- It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them whatever.

12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?- Exactly.

12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes.

12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?- Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season. I get no fish in summer.

12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter.

12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?- Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I have made the offer publicly to all the boats.

12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s. more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them.

12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never gave me the fish.

12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?- No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade.

12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes.

12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he would give me his fish.

12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it.

12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No.

12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the season to deliver his fish to another party.

12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes.

12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure their own fish?-In some cases they are.

12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.]

12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they could get.

12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have.

12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as lines, and hooks, and tar.

12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to them.

12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of the larger fishing stations?-Yes.

12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and I look to the skipper to see that I am paid.

12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than an account with one of the men?-Yes.

12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?- Yes.

12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are certain parties that I won't give them to.

12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No. Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they cannot do better.

12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from there as possible.

12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are.

12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is my own opinion.

[Page 300]

12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have.

12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does.

12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish.

12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra.

12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather think he gets a little more.

12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I leave that to you.

12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave that to you to judge.

12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases.

12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before.

12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as Garriock & Co, or any other one.

12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they wanted.

12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes.

12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have.

12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes.

12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient. They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price as they can at Reawick.

12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is about 10 or 12 miles.

12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks.

12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the men want them to go.

12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in that matter?-I think he has.

12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the men can go to whom they please. They are different there from what they are in the Faroe fishing.

12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by barter.

12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.

12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I am.

12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at Tresta?-Yes.

12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away.

12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence of the rough day.

12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up business on your own account?-Yes.

12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as with your own?-Yes.

12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Georgeson to-day?-Yes.

12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I have a grocer's licence.

12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or any other place for them if they choose.

12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for in cash?-Yes, always in cash.

12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given.

12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the fishermen.

12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own boats?-We have no boats fishing to us.

12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?- No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago.

12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and sometimes part from Sandsting.

12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes.

12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-Yes.

12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks, but they are small.

12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes.

12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some, but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply their families during the time they are away. They go principally to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home for a winter.

12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?- Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the voyage.

12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except the personal credit of the men?-None at all.

12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?- Of course they have a little.

12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to where I live.

12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I think there are none of them engaged in it.

12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no ling fishing there at all.

12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have some, but not many.

12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes, generally.

12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as they like. I don't think any compulsion is used.

12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to purchase cured fish?-No.

12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No.

12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I never thought much about it.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined.

12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of Tingwall?-I am.

12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and butter.

12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes.

12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes, generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too.

12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of 1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule.

12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little.

12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and cure them myself.

12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe.

12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then they know what the price is.

12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes.

12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give them that price.

12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with them.

12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes.

12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing then.

12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at all.

12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to fishermen?-Yes, a few.

12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?- Principally in the Faroe fishing.

12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?- None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops of the owners of the vessels they are in.

12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think so.

12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away.

12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may be about forty or fifty of them.

12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings.

12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant for whom they ship?-Yes, generally.

12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would make much difference. It is not very far from our place to Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the people generally are in the town every now and again with hosiery and things of that kind.

12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons.

12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there before they go away.

12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod. There are very few ling caught.

12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until we come to the big size.

12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price. When they come to me they generally take what goods they want, and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash.

12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They know the price before they come with them, and they generally want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the cash.

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12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence of the men.

12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me.

12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is the way in which the thing is done in our quarter.

12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that. It is not carried on to any great extent.

12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps in April or May, and send them south.

12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May.

12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I don't know; the price is very fluctuating.

12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was £23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of.

12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I sent them principally to Leith, and I got about £16 per ton for them on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return.

12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish from would get as much as £5 from you in the course of the winter and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would.

12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would get perhaps £4 or £5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and spring fishing.

12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases more than three-fourths would be paid in cash.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined.

12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am.

12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.

12,295. Is that statement correct?-It is, to the best of my knowledge.

[The witness then handed in the following statement:-]

'I am a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co. general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick.

'Mr. Umphray, the senior of the firm, and myself, are proprietors of land. Mr. Umphray, my younger brother, and I, are joint factors on the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.

'I am trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles.

'Our general store for all sorts of goods is at Reawick. We have, besides, two small shops or general stores, one in the Island of Foula where there are about forty families, and the other at Sandness, where there are about seventy-five families.

'We engage our fishermen and servants from the district of country comprising the parishes of Weisdale, Aithsting, Sandsting, Walls, Sandness, and Foula, with a few from districts beyond Tingwall, Burra, etc.

'We cured last season the fish from ten smacks fishing at Faroe, Iceland, etc., and five smaller vessels prosecuting the fishing in the neighbourhood of our own and the Orkney Islands. There are other owners interested in some of these vessels, but we engaged the crews on shares; and at the end of the season, when the value of the fish was realized, we accounted with owners and men for their proportions. The gross value will be about . . . £4600 0 0 The cost of bait, salt-curing, etc., . . £650 0 0 The cost of biscuit, coals on owners' account, 250 0 0 Proportion paid crew individually, . . 2200 0 0 Proportion paid owners, 1500 0 0 £4600 0 0

'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash, under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but they are under no obligation to take such advance from us and can, if they choose buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either for cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of the men can do without advances, having spare money; but the fishing could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, especially as regards the lads in their first and second year.

'In years when the fishing is not remunerative merchants making those advances lose heavily in bad debts.

'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal, etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s. 11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67, 7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years as regards our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably more than half their gross shares paid them in cash.

'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to English smacks fishing for us at it contract price-and we derive about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were such a mode attempted it would lead to fixed wages, and would end in loss to both men and owners, and a great falling off in this branch of the fishery.

'BOATS.-About one-fourth of our cure last year was from open boats-six-oared boats at far haaf, and four-oared boats at home haaf. About 63 tons of these are from crews who cure their own fish, and deliver at one time, at the end of the curing season. The remaining 71 tons are delivered fresh every day, as landed at our stations. Those who cure their own fish, whether they have advances of salt, meal, etc., from us or not, are at perfect liberty to treat with and sell to any merchant they can get the best price from when their fish are ready. Their boats and gear are all their own. The understanding about those delivered fresh is, that we pay not less than the current rate of the country. These men, as well as the others, own their boats and gear. The peculiarities of their situation make this mode of delivering in a fresh state a necessity. At two of the stations we receive from in that way; and we prefer it, although the fish should [Page 303] cost us higher than those cured by the men themselves, as we can make a much better article, having skilled men and better appliances. To show that our boat fishers do see more than a pound at settlement, I take the liberty to hand you herewith an abstract of my settlement last and previous month with the men at two stations in Walls, by which it appears that 36 men employed at far haaf, and 34 men at home haaf, had value in fish, £829, 19s. 1d. Our supplies in boats, lines, salt, meal, and other goods, was £29, 0s. 81/2d.; and I paid them in cash £600, 18s. 41/2d. I have not access to some of the station books; but, from an abstract of my last year's settlement at one of these stations, there was placed to credit of the men for fish, work, curing, etc., £655, 0s. 6d., which was thus disposed of: '1st. To account of arrears of advances of meal, etc., from previous years, £71 12 7 '2d. Fishing material, meal, goods, and cash from storekeeper during year, 270 7 2 '3d. Cash at settlement, 313 0 9

'It is not always so; this same island for three years, 1867-69, suffered severely from the crops being blasted, and the fishing of 1868 proving a failure (each fisherman's earnings for the whole year only amounting to about £3). We supplied them with meal during these years, at the end of which they were due us £228, 19s. 9d., besides some arrears of rent to Dr. Scott. All this is now cleared off, unless some three or four individuals; and the more provident have a good few pounds saved.

'In settling with our men, the whole crew, both as respects smacks and boats, are brought in together, and the statement of the division is gone over carefully. Afterwards each man comes separately, and every item of his account read over, or if a pass-book is kept (which is very common) it is made up. Copies of the account are given in every case when desired. I think our men are perfectly satisfied with the present system.

'The tenants on the Melby estate are perfectly free to earn their living as they choose; and it is the same as regards Mr. Umphray's tenants (who number 75) and my own. On going over the roll of Mr. Umphray's tenants, I observe there are only 17 fishing to my firm (some of them only part of the season), and of my tenants only 4.

'It is the exception, not the rule, for our fishermen to be in debt to us. Of the 70 men representing the sixteen crews of which I have given particulars, all had money to get, with the exception of six, who are due us balances to the amount of £33, 2s.

'We employed last year 40 beach boys, from 13 to 17 years of age. All had cash to get at settlement, and none are in advance on the coming season.

'HOSIERY.-We take hosiery in barter for any sort of goods required, including meal and provisions. We have found this branch of trade uniformly a losing one but it is convenient for our customers-families who occupy their spare time from farm work in knitting plain articles-to get such exchanged; and it would put them much about if we were to give it up, being so far from Lerwick, and the neighbouring country shops only taking such things as they have an outlet for. A good many of the girls go to town, perhaps once in the year, with their hosiery.

'EGGS.-We take in eggs in the same way, but pay cash readily when asked.

'We have only one price in our stores for goods, whether sold for cash or barter.

'My firm has no separate account for the wife, and with other members of the family, unless when such are working or fishing for themselves.'

12,296. You say in your statement that Mr. Umphray and yourself are proprietors of land: is that in the district in which your business is carried on?-Mr. Umphray is a proprietor of land there. His rental is somewhere between £300 and £400, and the number of his tenants is between 70 and 80.

12,297. What is the rental and the number of tenants on the Melby estate?-The rental is about £1200, and there are nearly 300 tenants; but I cannot give the exact number.

12,298. Do most of the tenants on these estates fish for you in summer?-There are more of them who fish for us than for any other.

12,299. Do you think all who are engaged in the ling fishing fish for you?-By no means; but I should say that fully three-fourths of them do.

12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott.

12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him.

12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted in it.

12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No; there were two or three years to run of the old lease.

12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it had been granted some years before.

12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes.

12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every householder is bound to pay £1 sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the terms on which they were to occupy under them.

12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the money had been paid.

12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869.

12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs. Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of £1. That was the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not trace any case in which the money had been paid.

12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish.

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12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people were getting fully as much as any other fishermen.

12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded statement altogether.

12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands, and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where they chose.

12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up.

12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out, that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such. Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they could not prevent them.

12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs. Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?- That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know.

12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave 1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue.

12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s. per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869.

12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer.

12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time.

12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for 1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must have been some time before.

12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they got very few. They were not fished to any great extent.

12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent, that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce.

12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island.

12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I refer to.

12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so closely as that.

12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour.

12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No, nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented from doing so, and I approved of that.

12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least.

12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of the letter by the people themselves.

12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people, when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition.

12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of selling them there.

12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and meeting the people.

12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort. I found that the people would much rather not have been under a lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself.

12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for the island on the whole.

12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether free, and to be able to deal as he chose.

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12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not much to complain of.

12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of it.

12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No. The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years.

12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and that they did not have much profit by the island.

12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?- I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of the produce of the island that they had anything to do with.

12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly to the proprietors?-Half-yearly.

12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only once a year?-Yes, they pay in November.

12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for that purpose.

12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera, or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants.

12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I know they do not interfere with them in that way.

12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me.

12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a restriction?-Certainly.

12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and account to the ladies for the residue.

12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't think that would be any particular benefit to them.

12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops.

12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the custom of the island.

12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom very much.

12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops and in Lerwick.

12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not on the island, but elsewhere.

12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them, because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants they fish to.

12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we have two or three.

12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that to be a fact, from various circumstances.

12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow.

12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly.

12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that much more than one half of their dealings must be with other people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island, and including those men who go to Faroe.

12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe fishing than in any other.

12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing more readily than others.

12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district that I know of in Shetland.

12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?- Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland.

12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with it?-Nothing whatever.

12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes, they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their fish to Messrs, Hay.

12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes.

12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?- Yes; there is no other store near.

12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?- No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men get the whole of their supplies from our stores there.

12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within reach of the fishermen residing there?-No.

12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in either of these districts if we could help it.

12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that.

12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies they are in need of.

12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole of them, but many of them do.

12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not done that lately. They could have no object in going there.

12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do. Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere.

12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather.

12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of their business?-They may go where they choose.

12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it, and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men.

[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in the affirmative by 65 men:-

'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated position of the island appears to require that one system be followed by all.

'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.']

12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created

great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they would be left to their own resources.

12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the islanders?-Yes, we went on as before.

12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years.

12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which.

12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago.

12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.

12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at Reawick.

12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within reach?-Yes.

12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with many people in the neighbourhood of other shops.

12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I have mentioned in my statement, that of £829, 19s. 1d., which was the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at all.

12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of supplies from you?-Yes.

12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland, the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal where they choose.

12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We might; but I would not consider it fair to do so.

12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know. I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose, since we had anything to do with them, and we were always prepared to pay them for their fish in money.

12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than one half of their earnings in money.

12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?- I don't think so.

12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they please.

12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are.

12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they have offers every year.

12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do. We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters, and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men the benefit of the highest price going.

12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case of that sort.

12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale offered the men this year £21 [Page 307] for their ling if they would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands without the price being stated, and we paid them £22 for the same fish.

12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price for ling was £23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities.

12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby.

12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never.

12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect freedom to fish where they chose.

12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them, especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years, are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes.

12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes, but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies.

12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if they make a fishing.

12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do.

12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who is in the book with balance against him.

12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly.

12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that.

12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and they are written out each year.

12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much.

12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their stipulation with us.

12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish, and account for them to the men.

12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the season is concerned?-Of course they do.

12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the men for the current price.

12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is expressed in our agreement, but it is understood.

12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price, we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end of the season.

12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them.

12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867. The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only got a small compromise.

12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them. We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men, under the terms of the agreement.

12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state anything about a loss.

12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes.

12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No, we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all.

12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages, but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into.

12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing: one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the statement I have produced.

12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said, would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed.

12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish, and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of that, I think, in more cases than one.

12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have. Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay them in cash if they wish it so.

12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could always sell for cash at any season if they chose.

12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a safe price that they would not sell them.

12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash if they chose, and they have probably paid some.

12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price. They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected.

12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in curing?-It is with us.

12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have meal to live upon, at any rate.

12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of the season?-Yes.

12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season.

12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed.

12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the work is going on, but never goods.

12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the contractor requires some money to pay the people who are working for him, he comes for it himself.

12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely: we have nothing to do with the parties under him.

12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have extra hands on when there is much to do.

12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of that kind, I daresay.

12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in cash, and they are made every week or ten days.

12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for the people employed among the fish.

12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give them goods. They get their money when their work is done every week, or at all events within the fortnight.

12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No, not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before sometimes get some money.

12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they don't require it.

12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the shops in Scalloway.

12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I don't think they do that.

12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the kind.

12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops.

12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit.

12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the money over to the people themselves, and if they have run accounts they have to go themselves and pay them.

12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes.

12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready money?-I cannot say.

12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad custom.

12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency in that way.

12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only reason why we have anything to do with it.

12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes. When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance with it.

12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes.

12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away.

12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it.

12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He pays a trifle; it is not much.

12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks.

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