Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 4 of 8)

Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 4 of 8)

6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.

6908. Why?-I don't know.

6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.

6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year; but in the second year I had 10s. to get.

6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year too?-Yes.

6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in cash.

6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back and go again.

6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.

6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.

6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and such things as that.

6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I never asked for it again.

6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not give a pass-book to any one more than to me.

6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?- Yes.

6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.

6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?- Yes.

6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with bread.

6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small stores?-Yes.

6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took it home.

6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself, and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it home.

6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes, and anything I required.

6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when you came home?-I got them twice.

6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make two voyages; last year we made three.

6929. And you would be getting something additional each time you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every voyage.

6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22.

6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.

6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last year, and this year I had £10.

6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.

6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.

6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.

6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for him?-Yes, that was about the time.

6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always at school before I went to the fishing.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON, examined.

6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.

6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to the Busta estate.

6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.

6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.

6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the middle of November.

6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's ledger?-Yes.

6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.

6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.

6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.

6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr. Anderson's.

6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.

6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me to take a few supplies from him.

6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and spring.

6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?- Yes.

6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled to do so.

6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of settlement.

6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much about the same time as for the other-some time in November or December.

6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.

6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused money at any time.

6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.

6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.

6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it is.

6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my experience.

6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man should take his goods from him.

6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.

6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.

6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].

6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from 1865 or 1866 to the present time.

6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr. Anderson's book?-Yes.

6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.

6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think I was.

6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14, 8s. 7d.

6970. You live with your father?-Yes.

6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.

6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168] quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the country.

6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.

6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at Mr. Anderson's.

6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.

6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding something for carriage.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON, examined.

6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for some time.

6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I am living with my father.

6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for three years.

6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.

6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get from his shop?-Yes.

6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.

6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year about two months ago.

6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but it was not much.

6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year before?-I was.

6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was clear. I had something to get the year before.

6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.

6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.

6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next account?-Yes.

6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.

6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in money?-No; they don't get them in money.

6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps they may get a little money.

6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.

6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].

6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book before?-No.

6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.

6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I could not get it.

6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did not have money, and I could not get it.

6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.

7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George Henry.

7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year; and I was there three months.

7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years since I first went to it.

7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required from him at the time.

7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No, not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to get, and I got it.

7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.

7006. During that time you always had an account with your employer?-Yes.

7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.

7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr. Anderson.

7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.

7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my supplies the first year from him.

7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the haaf?-No.

7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.

7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson, I might have had my liberty.

7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not clear?-Yes.

7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I just got them from the man that I was to engage with.

7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.

7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.

7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months afterwards?-Yes.

7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?- Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year. They make up their crews then.

7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews then?-Yes.

7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in the rising year.

7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.

7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I believe there is something in that.

7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that year when I left the beach.

7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him. I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.

7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago

7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about £5 odds.

7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.

7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not.

7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.

7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.

7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a little of it after I got the summons.

7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.

7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.

7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.

7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.

7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.

7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.

7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.

7041. When was that?-Three years ago.

7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.

7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I cannot say exactly what the reason was.

7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for the merchant I am now with.

7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5 and £6.

7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.

7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.

7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.

7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.

7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for the last three years. I am too old.

7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.

7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the year?-Occasionally.

7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was something due and it was put against me.

7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.

7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had my freedom; there was no compulsion.

7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.

7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have done so; but I saw no occasion for it.

7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.

7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain. It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the time came for settlement.

7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have anything to do with that.

7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.

7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were done in any other way.

7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.

7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do anything in the way of changing it.

7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't interfere with.

7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with them in any way.

7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every way they can.

7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.

7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.

7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own books and are satisfied with them.

7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle it herself?-Yes.

7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.

7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice, and it has been so all my days.

7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the price.

7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods, I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop with it.

7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.

7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?- Yes.

7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until your debt was paid?-Yes.

[Page 170]

7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.

7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.

7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a little cash?-No.

7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off now than they were in my young days, because at that time married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price, and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to be successful, it pays them very well.

7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.

7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe, and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.

7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four years.

7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?- Yes.

7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven voyages to Davis Straits.

7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.

7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve voyages for him.

7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was about 1850 or 1851.

7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.

7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.

7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got your advance, and could take it where you pleased.

7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick who engaged you?-Yes.

7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2 or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the book which they had to settle at that time.

7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them were sea-going clothes.

7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your families?-No; not very often.

7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all about the same.

<Adjourned>.

Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

DAVID GREIG, examined.

7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for them at North Roe for ten years.

7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.

7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with those on the west side.

7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?- At Feideland.

7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.

7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in this parish.

7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.

7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was £193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.

7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co. themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate on which they graze.

7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about £130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep up the property.

7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will have anything.

7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually understood so.

7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co. chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that they entered into it.

7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding. The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.

7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.

7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.

7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants fishing to other curers.

7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.

[Page 171]

7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.

7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no consequences have followed.

7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have been none at all.

7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in this parish.

7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were four deep-sea boats from Yell.

7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.

7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large. Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.

7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No; it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in our case it has never been above 48s.

7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.

7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat: she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.

7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are allowed to pay for them in three years.

7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the fishing.

7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co. from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.

7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had no profit by doing it.

7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.

7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70 from Northmaven, in 16 boats.

7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it was approximately about £1220.

7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That is their earnings from the fishing alone.

7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary course of business.

7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.

7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them, because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going over the accounts.

7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12.

7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?- Yes.

7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the fishermen.

7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes; there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their earnings.

7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8 in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.

7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2 to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their chance of the fishing of these two lines.

7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.

7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads' fishing was more than their fee.

7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't think so.

7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part of the country.

7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about £20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the average for the men much higher than I have put it there.

7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of the men?-Yes.

7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and £170 additional approximately for rent.

7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes; that is taken off their fishings.

7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about £8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire and provisions through the year, then the difference between the £8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to their families during the season.

7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the year?-Yes.

7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are all quite near.

7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.

7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop through the year, being returned to it for purchases.

7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?- Yes.

7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a single year?-It varies very much.

7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much as that.

7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?- They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr. John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and Hillswick.

[Page 172]

7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come back to me in turn.

7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there are six overdrawn accounts.

7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.

7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way.

7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always found it to be the best principle.

7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left the employment in consequence of being in debt.

7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.

7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.

7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an unfavourable year.

7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I think four or five years ago.

7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of years?-In two or three cases it has done so.

7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases just now.

7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was cleared off?-Yes.

7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.

7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.

7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.

7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if they were the proprietors.

7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else they would have to pay it.

7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the royalty to the proprietor.

7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp too.

7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.

7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.

7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should have the kelp shores.

7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid by them?-Yes.

7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods, and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value for it without having any profit on it.

7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in cash for it, then there would be no profit.

7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you have a profit on the goods?-Yes.

7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?- There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.

7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it for last year, when there were twelve tons.

7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales, but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5, 10s. per ton.

7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on board ship?-No.

7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and re-shipped again.

7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at Simbister?-Yes.

7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s. per cwt.?-I don't think it would.

7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at 4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d., and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and shipping and transhipping again.

7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the property.

7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.

7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.

7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to £12, 9s. 6d.

7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.

7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man had very high earnings.

7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at settlement: Cash Paid at Value of Fishings. Settlement. 1868 About £400 £290 1869 704 335 1870 1003 540 1871 1220 723

[Page 173]

7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.

7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August. After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.

7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging to the men themselves?-Yes.

7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.

7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I think since I came there they have generally been purchased from them, but not altogether.

7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is, that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years they stand in separate account in my books.

7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account. That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close of three years.

7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.

7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they are delivered.

7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave these transactions unsettled.

7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they are not required to do it in any way.

7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been many exceptions that I have known.

7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.

7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back again.'

7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.

7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.

7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the time?-Yes.

7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56.

7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes; but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100.

7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?- Yes.

7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?- No; not generally.

7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go south, employ their time in winter in that way.

7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.

7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.

7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea, where they graze for their own purposes.

7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for that island yearly.

7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the cattle?-For no other purpose.

7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.

7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes, mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases where they received the cash again immediately.

7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or they get cash for them at any time they want.

7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we might buy her or not.

7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never practised it at North Roe.

7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.

7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and removed it.

7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?- Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time, and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was not the debtor at all.

7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it, to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.

7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is possible it may have been in that way.

7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.

7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.

7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.

7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I don't think it.

7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.

7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.

7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.

7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and October.

7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.

7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him to do so.

7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy them.

7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all occasions.

7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No. I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody, they could have an action against him for refusing it.

7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I do not think it does exist.

7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.

7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I have transacted such business for some of them.

7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick, and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'

7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to make him the advance?-Yes.

7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant, rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such a case in our own neighbourhood.

7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own experience?-No.

7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know that it is the practice.

7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?- I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own knowledge.

7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands: do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.

7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?- No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to them for any tickets want.

7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.

7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind. There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money, and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself direct.

7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments, we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments, would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.

7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay them to do so.

7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.

7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.

7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to support them they are bound to do so.

7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish, and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.

7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s. 6d. to 15s. a month.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON, examined.

7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.

7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes; but principally in drapery.

7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage in that trade to a small extent.

7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had three boats last year, two large and one small.

7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.

7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.

[Page 175]

7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.

7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has been described by the previous witness and settle with them yearly?-Yes.

7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years they have generally been in their favour. In former years they were not generally so; they were often against them.

7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively; but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat, I have not had many changes.

7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your employment during that time?-Yes.

7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes. Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer; but generally they have been the same.

7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all cases.

7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few cases.

7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.

7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that accommodation?-Most of them are.

7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case with most of them.

7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.

7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of them, have their own wool.

7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a very small extent.

7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?- Invariably in goods.

7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?- No; very seldom.

7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.

7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books? -Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts short.

7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in goods over the counter.

7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value; but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall pay it.

7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it. 7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book now, so that I may be kept safe.

7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out.

7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No.

7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However, it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that way.

7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special.

7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it, and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash, and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in exchange.

7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes.

7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the invoices.

7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as got by them?-Yes.

7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by you?-Yes.

7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at 15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870.

7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not get any return.

7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices.

7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176] sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in which there is any profit.

7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted, but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district.

7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?- Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood.

7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare exceptions.

7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made into tweeds.

7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our knitters don't knit that kind of work.

7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually.

7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?- Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but they can turn it to more account by knitting.

7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?- I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us; but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable.

7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes.

7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into articles of hosiery?-Yes.

7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material, and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well, she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool themselves, than by selling it.

7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way.

7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate.

7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,- seven years.

7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time.

7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably enlarged.

7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm.

7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes.

7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would make the necessary repairs on it for myself.

7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on account of interfering with the business of the other merchants in the district?-No.

7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me on account of the inconvenience.

7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists only to it very small extent.

7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from such men.

7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the men.

7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in all cases.

7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my experience.

7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account which they had at my shop.

7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few.

7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few.

7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually bring part of the cash which has been paid to them.

7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at that time?-Sometimes I do.

7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some cases.

7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In cases where the parties are poor they do.

7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?- No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that sort.

7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in that way?-No.

7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done so.

7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the contrary.

7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his former employer?-Yes.

7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I believe that is generally the case.

7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he could for himself.

7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes.

7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another employer?-Yes.

7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount.

7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court, because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay.

7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes.

7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me, as an instalment on the debt.

7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes; the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the change in going to another employer would lead him to better himself.

7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better himself.

7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think so.

7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not give me security to cover my risk in giving him any.

7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account, and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next two seasons.

7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid me.

7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with you?-That has been the only case in my experience.

7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for Messrs. Hay & Co.

7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago, when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district, would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or not.

7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he would undertake to pay for the man.

7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before, and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend.

7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson & Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was a member of that firm.

7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which you have described exist among the fishing curers in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about.

7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes.

7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes.

7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs. Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since.

7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?- Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another firm.

7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie, Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick.

7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank, or from Mossbank to here.

7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so.

7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge.

7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend.

7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and Messrs. Hay.

7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them get into debt.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER, examined.

7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am.

7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes.

[Page 178]

7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-£5, 15s.

7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair season?-Yes.

7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your family?-Between £3 and £4.

7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the men take more than that.

7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe for all the things you want in the way of provisions and clothing?-Yes.

7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little.

7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend.

7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to any great extent except at North Roe.

7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs. Hay?-Yes; so far as I know.

7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very convenient.

7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I have always found them so.

7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter.

7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price, according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it.

7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight.

7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s.

7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe. That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there.

7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever fished for any other merchants?-No.

7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No.

7406. Not your small fish?-No.

7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe.

7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes.

7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No.

7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it openly.

7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in winter to anybody you like?-No.

7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes.

7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr. Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash.

7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little.

7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes.

7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do.

7419. Is she a widow?-Yes.

7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes.

7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No.

7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it ourselves.

7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else in the house?-There is a servant.

7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes.

7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I do some.

7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at Ollaberry.

7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your work?-I cannot say.

7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes.

7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same.

7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods.

7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them.

7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers.

7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps we may get as much as 2s. when they are good.

7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes.

7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No.

7436. Why?-I never asked it.

7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes.

7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally needing the goods.

7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was.

7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew that if I had asked it I might have got a little.

7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery whenever you take it to sell?-Yes.

7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in goods?-I don't know.

7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair.

7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No.

7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson.

7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes oftener.

7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold by you except hosiery?-No.

7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put into our account; they are just paid for at the time.

7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked.

7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often.

7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly taking tea.

7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes.

7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer? Three or four dozen?-We might.

7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d.

7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but generally.

7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?- No.

7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when the hosiery is not paid up.

7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?- Yes, generally.

7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton.

7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes.

[Page 179]

7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for yourself?-Generally.

7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes.

7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No.

7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at Hillswick?-No.

7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do.

7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair.

7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just about the same, I suppose.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R. SUTHERLAND, examined.

7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am.

7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848.

7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any minister can be.

7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally.

7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No.

7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits of the people?-I am perfectly willing.

7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being intimately acquainted with them, and having received the statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control.

7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips.

7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could point out, but not many.

7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came here.

7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes.

7479. Do you think the people generally who make these statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so, because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively independent. I speak only of that independence which we might expect from such it population. There are many of them who are in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I know.

7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very few compared with the rest.

7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable circumstances.

7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who are indebted, your information is derived from their own statements, and you say that you think generally these statements are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements can be expected to be; but I have my information from other sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well as I know them myself.

7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about his affairs?-Yes.

7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other way.

7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took place.

7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners, may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird.

7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally, more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor, were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing.

7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180] should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that.

7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly.

7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way.

7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a population such as the general Shetland population. He had to leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said, 'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a consequence of that sort of dealing.

7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes. What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration.

7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the whole population of Shetland.

7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their sentiments quite well upon the subject.

7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated.

7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about £5 or £6 was sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him. The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy, perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be immoral.

7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how destructive the system is to the morality of the common people, and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give the illustration without mentioning him.

7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be its effects.

7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I would have told him that every man should pay his debts.

7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no such thing.

7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?- Distinctly.

7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever.

7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I knew nothing more about it than that.

7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you did not inquire further?-Quite so.

7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the account, or what it was for, or anything about it.

7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time.

7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it than that.

7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were examined yesterday?-I did.

7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct description of their circumstances, and of the system on which they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to have given, and which they had given to me in private.

7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and from conversations which I have had with these witnesses.

7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and which were rather different from the statements she made here: did she make any different statement to you at any time from what she made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them, gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that they should have given, and I know the reason why.

7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181] statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses. It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very few exceptions.

7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in debt to the shop, less or more.

7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against the facts that I know with regard to the people.

7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very different feeling among the people.

7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once.

7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask?

7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?- I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome competition would be introduced, which I think would be an advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth.

7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may exist in the district are commonly called peerie (<i.e.> small) shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more, they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops.

7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality he is selling for another.

7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it all my life.

7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them, because there is no competition at all.

7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday.

7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with the articles after they get them.

7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too. The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people by the nature of their early training.

7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one who is connected with the country must see it as well.

7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?- I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me. She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the coffin or at her grave.

7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived. I think one of them lived about half-way between this and Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district.

7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early training produced by the system of credit.

7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for themselves?-Where?

7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No; they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants, are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the children there when they came home were not made to pay for their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered into the family again the same as they were before they went out. They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment.

7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they require them.

7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here. They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts.

7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do that without being in debt.

7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does here.

7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that could be produced.

7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes. I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr. Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next sentence is, 'If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence.

7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question 44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with that entirely.

7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?- That is the case, so far as I know.

7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs, and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I would meet her again coming back, and among other things she would have a little bag with her in which there would be some hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back in exchange for the eggs.

7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that these articles do not form part of the husband's account.

7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it. Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest.

7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr. Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the independence of the people very much; with that I entirely agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it.

7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of from £70 to £90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted, and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse than that. Another man came into possession of £230 or by the death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands, and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said, 'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get 5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life, and you can hand down the £230 to your children.' He said, 'I am determined to do everything you have advised, and that money shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out, and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money.

7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all gone.

7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here than they do in other places?-I think very much more so.

7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least, they can only get clothing for their knitting.

7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft goods generally that the hosiery is paid for.

7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that is not the case here.

7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both here and at Lerwick.

7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing, and he told me.

7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said: 'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to take them into Lerwick.'

7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails, or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But what have they said?

7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one man here who was not by any means a representative of the ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among whom he lives.

7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or two?-Not very many.

7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer people have appeared here than at other places with even less population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in debt £13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks. Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to the wife and said, 'Have you £13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's appreciation of the value of debt.

7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that wholly and to nothing else.

7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from Ollaberry.

7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about your condition before: will you come now and give information about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it, as it would just make their case worse.

7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the poor people of this country.

7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed.

7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did.

7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter, and have been speaking to people about coming forward and giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once.

7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark. If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me except in the dark.

7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous; but some years there is a good deal of it.

7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can spare to me.

7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are many others.

7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular article I purchase it here.

7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from the south?-So far as I know, it is.

[Page 184]

7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.

7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge upon their goods.

7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am not accusing him at all.

7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is the system I object to.

7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known several cases of that kind.

7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be, in order to correct this evil.

7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end of it.

7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than what I find around me, but the system would make them what they are on both sides.

7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were conducted in this part of the country.

7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.

7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished, and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.

7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that purpose that charity is given in the south?

7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for which the subscription was made. The money was collected by the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.

7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give more cases the same kind.

7584. That was not a case where the money came from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private subscription. I knew another case where several boats were lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny, and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop. That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.

7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for Shetland?

7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing for such a purpose as that money was applied to.

7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave 10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was quite correct.

7588. How long was that after the subscription had been collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected, but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.

7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'

7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was paid to the merchant at Hillswick.

[Page 185]

7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?' 'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'

7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a couple of years.

7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned, seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to the merchant.'

7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.

7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85 years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.

7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society, either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent, said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case, but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such thing.

7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's account, but that it was only done in a case where the account was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.

7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.

7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this morning?-I did.

7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.

7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them.

7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due.

7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes. Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its effects.

7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got a share of the balance I could pay.

7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing that.

7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some cases, but I know in many cases it is not.

7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't think it.

7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at Lerwick had their principal institution at the top of the town; but when opposition came, they opened small shop in the principal street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere else.

7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the people have little money in their hands.

7610. Don't you know that many fishermen have large accounts in the bank in Lerwick already?-I know that some of the fishermen have a little there; but I know that the large accounts are not in the banks. I know from their statements where they get 5 per cent. for their money, and that is not from the bank.

7611. Where do they get that?-I won't mention any particular place, but they get it from the merchants in Shetland.

7612. Are there many men who are in a position have accounts of that kind with the merchants?-Several of them of the better class have told me about that themselves.

7613. Are these the one-fourth or one-third of the whole whom you mentioned, or a part of them?-They don't make one-fourth of the whole. The parties who could have such accounts would not perhaps come to one-sixth of the whole. Of course, I am speaking generally when I give that proportion.

7614. Do you mean that it is only one-sixth of the one-third who are well-doing, that have such accounts?-I should say it would not be more than one-sixth of the one-third who had them.

7615. Are there many public-houses in your parish?-No; properly speaking, there are no public-houses at all. There are shops where spirits are sold, but there is no public-house. At Hillswick, for instance, there is a shop with a back-shop to which the men go round and get whisky.

7616. But not to be consumed on the premises?-I never was there; but I understand the men do drink in that back place. I know that from their own statements to me.

7617. Does each merchant who keeps a shop and cures fish, have a grocer's licence?-No; I think there are licences in North Roe and Ollaberry as well as here. I may give a statement with regard to whisky [Page 186] since it has been mentioned. I hold in my hand the account of a fisherman for goods supplied to him at the shop; and I find that, during the six months over which it extends, the value of the whisky supplied was 14s. 10d. The way in which it came into my hands was this: A gentleman in the south was responsible for the account, and when it was sent to him, he was so horrified about it that he sent it from Edinburgh to me to inquire into, and I saw the people.

7618. How long was that since?-I think it is about three years ago. I sent the account to a merchant in the south to analyze it, so that I might report to the gentleman. I got back an analysis of it, with this written upon it: 'This account cannot be made payable in any court of law;' and the grounds for that opinion were stated to be, that there had been nothing weighed and nothing measured in the account, and they held that no account could be made payable in law that was neither measured nor weighed.

7619. Have you a copy of that account?-No; but I can give the name of the party in Edinburgh who got it. What I mention it for, is to show that there was 14s. 10d. charged for <aqua> in six months in various small sums. There was also a large sum paid in cash; and I was so struck with that, as the man was not married, that I went to another person who was acquainted with the manner in which business was carried on in Shetland, and asked him what was meant by so much cash being paid. He said, 'Oh, that is money which is borrowed in the one shop and drunk in the other.' That is the explanation I got, whether it was true or not.

7620. But that was the explanation of a third party who had no concern with the account?-Yes. When I sent the document to the gentleman in Edinburgh, he said he would pay that amount, but he would pay no more; and after that he sent me £5 a-year, from which I make payments to the man every month.

7621. In this account there is £1, 14s. 10d. and £1, 14s. 2d. in cash which you say was also spent in whisky?-I was only told about that by a party who said he knew about the same thing having been done. In this account there is 2s. 6d. entered for sweeties, verifying what was said in some of the evidence, that sweeties were given to make up the balance. With regard to whisky, I may explain that I had some whisky tested by a qualified party, which I believe was sold in the shops at 9d. per gill. The profit upon that, on being tested, was found to be 55 per cent. I also had tea sent and tested, for which the people had paid 3s. per pound, and the proper judge, to whom I sent it, sent me word that it was exactly 2s. tea, there being 50 per cent. of profit charged upon it.

7622. Who tested the tea?-A tea merchant in Aberdeen.

7623. Who tested the whisky?-A spirit-dealer also in Aberdeen. I sent these articles to be tested in order to show the enormous prices which are charged by these merchants. I have no interest in the matter myself, except that my poor parishioners should not pay more than they ought to pay, and also that an end might be put to a system which is injurious both to merchants and people.

7624. What remedy would you propose for the existing state of matters, and for the evils which are alleged to exist?-My remedy would be to declare the present truck system to be penal.

7625. What would you desire to be penal?-The truck system.

7626. But the truck system, properly so called, is penal; and the question in this inquiry is, whether other things are to be included within the operation of the Acts which apply to the truck system?-Well, I mean that this system of carrying on business in Shetland should be declared to be penal.

7627. Do you mean that you would make it penal to give long credit for shop goods?-I would make it penal to give any credit at all, and I would admit either party to give evidence against the other party for infringement of that statute, and would be to make all debts so incurred irrecoverable by any process of law. These three things are what I think would form a remedy for the present state of matters. At the same time, I am just as convinced that the merchant ought to live, and must live, and have a reasonable profit, as I am that the people should not pay more for their articles than they are worth.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JAMES BRUCE, examined.

7628. You are the schoolmaster of this parish, and inspector of poor?-I am.

7629. How long have you been inspector of poor?-For twenty-two years.

7630. I understand the number of paupers in this parish is fifty-three?-Yes; exclusive of dependants. I now exhibit an abstract of the accounts for all the time I have been in the office of inspector, which I keep for any own satisfaction and the satisfaction the Board.

7631. Do you think the amount of pauperism in the parish has diminished or increased in your experience?-I think it has kept very much about the same some years back.

7632. Do you think that pauperism is increased or affected in any way by habits arising from the system of protracted credit which exists in the parish, or have you formed any opinion at all upon the subject?-I have formed no opinion upon that, but I know that the Poor-Law has acted very injuriously upon the parish by increasing the expenses.

7633. That is to say, it has acted injuriously as regards those who pay the assessment, whatever it may have done with regard to the condition of the paupers themselves?-Yes. For a long time after the passing of the Act, we kept on the old system of quartering and paying the paupers through the session fund, and so on, and the heritors generally contributed a certain amount yearly to meet any balance due.

7634. I presume the payments made to the paupers are made in money?-Yes; all in money, except clothing, which is taken round to them.

7635. How long has that system prevailed?-Since the Poor-Law came into operation in the parish.

7636. Since 1845?-Not since 1845; nor for several years afterward. The legal assessment, I think, came on in 1861.

7637. You say that all clothing to the paupers is furnished by the inspector?-Yes; furnished by myself.

7638. Where is it purchased?-At any of the shops in the district, generally where the paupers live. Anything that is required for paupers in North Roe I generally purchase from Mr. Greig.

7639. In this district where is it purchased?-Generally at Hillswick, from Mr. Anderson.

7640. Is there any other place except these two shops where it is purchased?-Yes; at Ollaberry and Lochend from Mr. Laurenson.

7641. You purchase it yourself and deliver it to the paupers?- Yes.

7642. When their allowances are due in money, are they paid in money?-Yes; they call up for it-all those who are round me. At North Roe I send a cheque to Mr. Greig previous to the time for the amount to be distributed.

7643. If a pauper is unable to come here, how is his allowance conveyed to him?-They generally send their tickets, and I send the money by any person who can convey it. It is paid on tickets.

7644. What kind of ticket?-It is just an account of the allowances given to the paupers, and it is authorized by the Board of Supervision. It is the receipt for the money. The pauper keeps the ticket in his own possession, and whenever I get the ticket I pay the money, and mark it on the back. The pauper comes himself, if able and if not he sends the ticket.

7645. Was the allowance never paid by means of orders for meal? -Previous to the legal assessment [Page 187] coming into operation in the parish in 1861, it was sometimes paid in that way, and sometimes in cash.

7646. Has it ever been paid by an order for meal or food since then?-Not to my recollection, except it may be in the case of the applicants for casual relief, or applicants coming to me seeking relief before the meeting of the Board. In that case, sometimes, but not often, I would give an order for a little meal. I generally do that when I have not sufficient confidence in the economy of the party, and when I think the allowance may be put to some other use than the purchase of meal or necessaries.

7647. Has it never been paid to paupers regularly on the roll by means of an order upon the shop?-No; not since the Act came into operation in the parish.

7648. Are you quite sure of that?-I think I am perfectly sure, so far as my recollection goes.

7649. Have any of the paupers on the roll ever asked you to give them a line or an order on the shop for meal or other requirements?-No; not to my recollection. They always get their cash.

7650. Have you ever had occasion to transact business with paupers, or to make payment of their allowances at the shop at Hillswick, or at any of the shops in the neighbourhood?-No; I don't practise that at all.

7651. Has it ever been done?- Very seldom, I think.

7652. But it may have been done?-At the last month's pay there were two poor women living about five miles from this, who, I knew, could not come themselves, and I was doubtful that they might not get a person to come for them; therefore I sent word to them to send their ticket to Mr. Anderson and get the money. That was only done on one occasion.

7653. That is the only occasion within your recollection?-Yes. Mr. Anderson generally draws the money for me from the bank; and when I run out of change, I send down the pauper to him with a note for money; but that does not often happen. It is simply when I am out of change.

7654. Mr. Anderson merely acts as your banker?-Yes.

7655. He draws the money as the chairman of the Board?-Yes; and it is handy for me, because I get the small change from him that I require.

7656. How often does it happen in the course of a year that you give an order of that sort?-I could not say how often it happens. I only remember one other instance of it just now, besides the one I have referred to. The person called here, and I did not have the change; and as the person was going to Hillswick, I gave a note on Mr. Anderson to give the money. But it is not at all a common practice.

[The sitting was here adjourned till the evening.]

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR HARRISON, examined.

7657. You are a merchant at Hillswick?-Yes, at Urrafirth.

7658. You were for some years in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.

7659. And you are now in business on your own account at Urrafirth?-Yes.

7660. Do you employ any fishermen?-No.

7661. Are you in business in the drapery and provision line?-No; I only deal in groceries.

7662. Do you not keep any soft goods at all?-Yes; I have a few pieces of cotton.

7663. You are just beginning business?-Yes.

7664. Had you any difficulty in getting shop accommodation?- Yes, a little.

7665. In what way? Was it not easy to find a shop in this parish?-No; it was not easy.

7666. How so?-The heritor did not wish to give it to me; and I had a lease saying that I was not to commence business.

7667. You had a lease of what?-Of a bit of ground which I held.

7668. Was it a lease of the premises you now possess?-Yes.

7669. When did you take that lease?-Fourteen years ago.

7670. You have lived there for fourteen years, and had a piece of ground?-Yes.

7671. And the lease prohibited you from carrying on any shop business?-Yes; but the heritor allowed me to cure fish, and to keep a little to supply the people whom I employed.

7672. In what way did you employ them?-I employed them, and paid them every Saturday night.

7673. In what business?-In curing fish-drying Faroe cod. I don't buy the cod; I cure it for Mr. Adie.

7674. Is that your principal occupation?-Yes.

7675. And the landlord agreed to allow you to keep small shop for supplying provisions to these men?-Yes.

7676. Is that all you are doing now?-Yes.

7677. Did you receive a letter from the Busta trustees, forbidding you to carry on a shop business there, or stating that you could not be allowed to hold the premises for the purpose of doing so?-No, I received no letter; but in my lease it is stated that I am not to carry on anything but the curing business.

7678. But you had that fourteen years ago?-Yes.

7679. Have you had any communication with the Busta trustees, or with any one of them, on the subject since you took your lease?- Yes.

7680. With whom?-With Mr. Gifford and Mr. Hay.

7681. Was that communication in writing?-No; it was personally with them at Busta.

7682. Did you apply to them for leave to carry on a more extensive business in the way of a shop?-No; I did not apply for anything more than what I got.

7683. What was it you went to see them about?-I went to ask for liberty to cure fish, and keep a small store.

7684. When did you do so?-About November 1869.

7685. Was that shortly after you left Mr. Anderson's employment?-No; it was before.

7686. Did they grant you that permission?-Yes; latterly it was granted.

7687. But it was not granted to you at first?-No.

7688. For what reason?-I don't know for what reason.

7689. Did they not assign a reason for not granting you that permission?-Yes. I think they said it was too near Hillswick.

7690. What was the meaning of that?-That the starting of another business there might reduce the value of Hillswick, and therefore it would not pay such a rent.

7691. Did you understand from that, that in granting Mr. Anderson a lease of the premises at Hillswick, they had become bound not to allow any other shops to be opened in the district?-No; they did not say anything like that.

7692. Was it with Mr. Gifford this conversation took place?-Yes.

7693. Was it implied that they had some reason for not interfering with Mr. Anderson's business?-Yes; at least the reason he gave was not so much that it would interfere with Mr. Anderson's business, as that it would bring down the rent of Hillswick, and would not advance the property anything.

7694. Do you mean that if you were to open a shop there, the necessary result would be that Mr. Anderson would require to have his rent reduced?-Yes; that is likely to have been what was meant.

7695. How long after that was it when you got permission to open your present shop?-I don't know exactly how long it was. Perhaps it may have been a month or two after it was spoken of first. I then got [Page 188] liberty to cure the fish and keep provisions for the men I employed; that was all.

7696. But only for the men you employed?-That was all the liberty I got.

7697. Are you not allowed to sell to anybody except the people you employ?-I never asked any more liberty than that.

7698. When you first went to ask for that permission, had you made arrangements to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-No.

7699. Had you made the arrangement by the second time you went?-Yes.

7700. Did you say to Mr. Gifford, when you went the second time, that you had made such an arrangement?-Yes; I told him I had got the offer of fish to cure.

7701. Was he more ready to grant your application on that occasion?-Yes. He said I could take the work.

7702. Had you spoken to Mr. Anderson about the matter in the interval?-I don't remember; perhaps I might.

7703. You were trying to set up your business at that time?-Yes.

7704. Don't you remember whether you applied to Mr. Anderson with regard to that matter at all?-Yes. I believe I told him then what had passed between me and Mr. Gifford at first.

7705. Did Mr. Anderson then agree to withdraw any objection he might have to it?-He did not say anything about that.

7706. In what way did you come to make an arrangement with Mr. Adie?-He had been told that I intended to commence curing fish, and he offered me some to cure.

7707. Was it through Mr. Anderson that that was done?-I don't know.

7708. Did the offer from Mr. Adie come to you through Mr. Anderson?-No. He wrote me directly and I replied accepting his offer, and then I went and saw him at Voe.

7709. Do you buy the fish from Mr. Adie's boatmen?-No; I buy no fish.

7710. They are delivered to you by Mr. Adie's boatmen on his account, and you cure them for Mr. Adie, employing your own people and receiving a contract price for the curing?-Yes.

7711. How long had you been in Mr. Anderson's service before that time?-Upwards of twenty years.

7712. All the time as a shopman?-Not all the time, but perhaps for eighteen years as a shopman.

7713. Why did you leave his employment?-There was some difference between us, and we thought it best to part.

7714. Was there a quarrel about money matters, or anything of that kind?-No; there was no great quarrel.

7715. After you were refused that permission in the first instance by the Busta trustees, did Mr. Anderson agree in any way not to object to you having the shop, provided your sales were limited to the men whom you employed yourself?-No; Mr. Anderson never objected to me, nor in my presence; I did not hear him objecting.

7716. Did you know of him objecting?-I could not say that I knew of it.

7717. Did you think he was objecting?-Yes.

7718. What made you think that: was it what Mr. Gifford said?-I think it was.

7719. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have less objection to it when he knew it was Mr. Adie who was concerned in the business?-I took no thought of that.

7720. Do you know that Mr. Adie had interfered on your behalf with Mr. Gifford?-Not to my knowledge.

7721. Did you ask him to do so?-No.

7722. Have you any reason to suppose that he interfered on your behalf with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. He wrote to Mr. Anderson about me, inquiring why had left, and asking for testimonials.

7723. Was that before he wrote to you making the offer?-It was when I was asking goods from him. I don't remember exactly whether it was before or after.

7724. Do you sell the goods for Mr. Adie, or do you sell them on your own account?-I sell them on my own account.

7725. Do you get them from Mr. Adie at wholesale prices?-Yes.

7726. At least you get them from him at a lower rate than that at which you sell them?-Yes.

7727. Was it before or after you got leave from the Busta people to open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say exactly when it was, but it was before I got the goods from Mr. Adie.

7728. Was it before you had got permission to open the shop that you applied to Mr. Adie for the goods?-No; I had got permission before I applied for the goods.

7729. Then it was after you had got permission open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-Very likely it was but I don't know. I did not know about him having written until some time afterwards, when he told me.

7730. When you arranged with Mr. Adie about the fish-curing, was anything said about you having a shop from which to supply the people with goods?-No.

7731. Are you sure of that?-Yes. I wrote to him, and I never said anything about that.

7732. But you went to see him after that?-Yes; it was only then I spoke about the goods.

7733. Was it on your way home from Voe that you called at Busta and saw Mr. Gifford about the shop the second time?-No; it was before I went to Voe.

7734. Was it on your way to Voe?-I don't remember. Perhaps it may have been on a different day altogether.

7735. But it was before you went to Voe, and after you had got the letter from Mr. Adie?-Yes.

7736. You don't know from Mr. Adie or Mr. Anderson whether there had been any letters between them about you until after you were at Voe that time?-I don't know.

7737. Do you think there was any such letter?-I don't know of any, but there may have been.

7738. How did you know of the other letter first: did you see it?- No.

7739. Who told you of it?-Mr, Adie.

7740. Was that at another time when you called upon him?-No; it was the first time-the time when I went to him and asked for goods. He told me then that he had written to Mr. Anderson and got his reply.

7741. That is not what you told me before: did you not say before, that you thought it was after you had asked for the goods that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-It was after I had agreed for the fish.

7742. Then the first time you saw Mr. Adie was at Voe before you opened the shop, and when you went to ask for goods?-Yes.

7743. And when you were at Voe at that time Mr. Adie told you he had written to Mr. Anderson, and had received a reply from him containing a certificate?-Yes.

7744. Did Mr. Adie tell you at the same time that he had seen Mr. Gifford?-I cannot say.

7745. What department did you manage in Mr. Anderson's shop?-I was fish-curer and factor for the summer time at Stenness.

7746. Do you know William Inkster?-Yes.

7747. Do you remember three or four years ago when he left Mr. Adie and came to fish to Mr Anderson?-Yes.

7748. Did you know that he did that because Mr. Adie had refused him supplies on account of a debt?-No; I did not know that.

7749. Did you know that he was in Mr. Adie's debt at that time?- Yes.

7750. Do you know that Mr. Anderson took over the debt?-Yes.

7751. Is it a common thing here for a fish-merchant to take over the debt of a fisherman who leaves another employer and comes to him?-Yes.

[Page 189]

7752. Have you heard of that frequently among the fishermen?- Yes. It has been the practice so long as I can remember, except some time after Mr. Anderson came here, when it was not done. Then, a fisherman who had got an advance from one merchant, would go to another and leave his balance unpaid, and therefore the old system was renewed again.

7753. Do you know the nature of the arrangement which was made when the system was renewed?-I do not.

7754. Do you know what the arrangement is?-I never saw the arrangement.

7755. I don't suppose it was in writing?-I could not say.

7756. Do you know what the practice generally is now in such cases?-Yes. The merchant generally pays the man's balance before giving him anything.

7757. That is to say, the new employer pays the man's balance before agreeing with him to fish for him for the season?-Yes.

7758. Is the whole balance paid, or only a part of it?-That is just as they can arrange.

7759. Is there a rule that a man is not to be taken by new employer without his balance being paid to the old one?-I think that is generally understood now.

7760. Do you know over what district that arrangement prevails? Do you know what fish-merchants do that?-I think it extends no further than to the men fishing at Stenness, and from Voe to Hillswick.

7761. Does that include Messrs. Adie, Mr. Anderson, and Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

7762. Were you aware that that was always done when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment?-No, it was not always done, but it was practised before I came into Mr. Anderson's employment at all.

7763. But when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment, was it not always done?-No, not always.

7764. You mean that the arrangement ceased for a while, and was renewed?-Yes.

7765. How long is it since it was renewed?-I cannot tell.

7766. Was it before William Inkster came to Mr. Anderson?- Yes, some time before that.

7767. Did you know that it was done in other cases besides Inkster's?-Yes.

7768. Was it done in many cases?-I don't remember of many.

7769. Was it commonly known among the fishermen that there was such a rule?-Yes, latterly, I believe, it was generally known.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON (recalled).

7770. You showed me some of your books yesterday, in which I saw the name of William Inkster, Stenness and you explained to me that a large sum of money, upwards of £40, which stood against him in your books when he began to fish at the beginning of last year, was the continuation of a balance that had been against him for some years previously: is that so?-Yes. I would rather not mention names, unless you think it necessary, because I make it a rule with my shopmen that they are never to mention any man's balance, whether it is due by him or not, on pain of being turned off.

7771. You told me that this large balance consisted partly of an account which Inkster had incurred to Mr. Adie at Voe, and which you had taken over when the man began to fish for you?-Yes.

7772. What was the amount of the original debt which you took over from Mr. Adie?-I think it came to about £20.

7773. Inkster left Mr. Adie, I understand, in consequence of his supplies being stopped?-I don't know the reason exactly.

7774. But he came to fish for you?-Yes.

7775. How did it happen that you undertook his debt at the end of the first season he fished for you?-It was in consequence of an agreement that exists between Mr. Adie, Mr. Inkster of Brae, and me, with reference to each other's fishermen.

7776. What is the nature of that agreement?-It was entered into just to protect ourselves from those men who want to escape from paying their debts. I think we're bound to each other not to take the men without making some arrangement to see that their debts shall be paid.

7777. Do you undertake to pay the whole debt, or only a part of it, according to circumstances?-It is the whole debt.

7778. Was this a verbal arrangement?-No.

7779. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes.

7780. Have you got it?-I have not. I rather think I got a copy sent to me at one time but I think Mr. Adie has the extended agreement.

7781. Have you got a copy of it now?-I have not.

7782. Have you lost it?-No. It is very likely among my papers, but I cannot say. It is a long time since I came across it.

7783. Has this arrangement been of long standing? Do you remember the date of it?-I cannot exactly say the date. I think it must be from five to nine years since it was entered into, but I cannot speak accurately as to the date.

7784. Has the arrangement been acted upon?-Yes.

7785. When a fisherman leaves one master, and goes to another of those three, the debt due to the former master is generally paid by the new one?-Yes.

7786. You showed me in your invoice book an entry of the last purchase of oatmeal you had made from Messrs. Glenny, Aberdeen, for the purposes of your business, as follows:-'1871 June 19. 50 sacks oatmeal, sacks 50s., £100'?-Yes. The 50s. is the price of the sacks, to be returned or kept.

7787. A sack of oatmeal consists of 280 lbs.?-Yes.

7788. What is the selling price of a lispund?-5s. 4d.

7789. Has that been the price for some time?-It has been the price during the last season.

7790. You also showed me an invoice of flour from Messrs. J. & J. Tod, Dalkeith:-'1871. October 2. 2 sacks extra superfine flour, at 44s., £4, 8s.;' and another invoice, containing these entries:- 'October 19. 2 sacks No. 2 flour, at 45s., £4, 10s., 1 sack oatmeal, £2'?-Yes. The sacks in these invoices are charged separately.

7791. What is the selling price of the flour?-6s. 6d. per lispund. Flour is also sold by the lispund here.

7792. Both the flour and the oatmeal in the invoice of October 19 were intended for the purposes of your business?-Yes. Besides the invoice price, there are freight and charges to be taken into account. The freight and landing would be 2s. per sack for the oatmeal. That is the steamer's freight to Lerwick, and then it is brought by a small packet which comes round by Roenesshill when she has anything like a cargo. The small packet charges 1s. 6d. per sack; it is double freight coming round the hill; so that probably the freight and landing charges will be 3s. 6d. per sack.

7793. Are these all the charges?-I think so. There would also be insurance charged against me; it is at my risk when shipped. It was not insured in this case, but still that ought to be reckoned, because I ran the risk. I don't know the rate of insurance. I have paid as high as 35s. per cent. of insurance from Leith, but I have got it much cheaper insured in Glasgow-I think 7s. 6d. per cent.

7794. Is that for goods in general, or for any particular kind of goods?-Just for general goods.

7795. You heard the evidence that was given this morning?-Yes.

7796. Is there any statement you have heard from any of the witnesses which you wish to correct, or anything you wish to say in addition to what you said yesterday?-Yes. I think I would be inclined to differ from [Page 190] the description which Mr. Sutherland gave of the people. My experience of them has been very different.

7797. You would be disposed to give the Shetland people a better character than he gave them?-I think so. I think they can bear favourable comparison with any people of the same class that I have come across in other parts of the world.

7798. In respect of frugality?-Yes.

7799. And foresight?-Yes; and activity in business.

7800. And for their moral virtues?-Yes.

7801. Is it not the case that a considerable part of the year is spent in comparative idleness by the Shetland fishermen?-I believe it is, but that perhaps does not arise from any unwillingness on their part to work.

7802. From what does it arise?-From want of employment.

7803. Have they not their land?-They have their land, but, as I observed before, there is a bar to improvement there.

7804. Would it not be possible to introduce a more extensive system of winter fishing than that which exists now?-I don't think it.

7805. It seems a little peculiar, does it not, that the summer fishing should be prosecuted in the big boats, and that only the small boats should be sent out in winter?-They prosecute the fishing in the big boats in winter too, when the weather permits.

7806. But they don't go so far to sea in winter as in summer?-No; they don't go so far.

7807. I understood it was principally the small boats that went out in winter?-That is true, but on several occasions they employ the big boats too. But the smaller boats, when the weather permits, are much handier and lighter to manage.

7808. Are they safer?-They are equally safe when the weather permits.

7809. But would they not be able to go greater distances to sea with the big boats?-It would not matter much what size of boat they had if they were caught at sea by a gale.

7810. Is it not the case that on the east coast of Scotland the fishing is prosecuted for nine or ten months in the year; and that the fishermen there, who are a very comfortable class, have no occupation except that of fishermen? I am not asking you at present about any separation between fishing and agriculture, but don't you think it would be possible to prosecute the fishing in Shetland to the same extent, and for the same length of time, as it is prosecuted on the east coast of Scotland?-I don't think it.

7811. Is that owing to the weather?-It is owing to the weather, and the great exposure to the Atlantic, and the great swell that comes in from it. A very light puff of wind raises a tremendous sea in winter, that scarcely any boat could live in.

7812. In some parts of Shetland, where there is not so much exposure, is not the winter fishing prosecuted to some extent?- Yes.

7813. And to a greater extent than it is here?-Yes; that is done about Yell Sound, for instance. They are protected there on almost all sides.

7814. Here you are exposed to westerly gales which do not affect the fishermen on the east coast?-That is so.

7815. Is that the principal reason why the fishing is not prosecuted here so much in winter?-That is partly the reason.

7816. Is there any other reason why the winter fishing does not succeed here?-Yes. Every experienced fisherman knows that it is only at certain seasons of the year that the ling come over the ground in any quantities; and that is, I think, from, say the month of April or May to September. That has been the case for generations.

7817. Ling is your staple fish here, upon which the success of the fishing depends?-Yes; altogether.

7818. Would it not be worth while to prosecute the fishing in winter for the purpose of taking cod and haddock and other fish?-I don't think it.

7819. Would it not pay without the ling?-No; the other fish would not be got in sufficient quantities.

7820. Would they not be got in the same quantities, as on the east coast of Scotland?-No. The ground here for one thing is not so extensive. On the east coast of Scotland, you can have a range of perhaps, ten or twenty or thirty miles from every port, which you have not got here.

7821. How have you not got that range here?-The island is not so big altogether; and there are only certain tracks of ground that the men can fish on.

7822. It is on certain banks only that the fish caught?-Yes.

7823. And the banks here are not so extensive as on the east coast?-They are not.

7824. Has any attempt ever been made to introduce a more extensive winter fishing?-I don't think there is a more active class of men anywhere than there is to the westward here. They have small holdings, but they are constantly prepared to go off to sea when the weather offers, and they do prosecute the fishing often.

7825. Have you anything further to state?-With regard to the debts of the men, I may say that in 1864 I gave them to understand that unless those who were in debt reduced their balances in the former year, I could not help them again with their rent; and, except in exceptional cases, I have invariably acted upon that rule since.

7826. You mean that when they came to you at rent time for a cash payment in order to help them to pay their rents, you could not help them with that unless their former balance was reduced?- Quite so.

7827. You mentioned in a former part of your examination that a certain amount of cash had been paid at last settlement?-Yes.

7828. That would be in November?-Yes; in November and December.

7829. Did the whole of that pass to the fishermen, or was any rent included in it?-That was what I paid to the people when I was settling. There might be others besides fishermen, but I did not distinguish between them.

7830. Do any of the rents of the Busta estate pass through your hands?-No.

7831. But the rents to be paid to the factor would probably, where due by fishermen, be paid out of these payments by you?-I think so; but not necessarily in every case.

7832. Have you any arrangement with the factor about the rents of your fishermen?-None at all.

7833. That is quite an independent concern?-Quite.

7834. I think you have prepared some statement with regard to the amount of debts due by your fishermen during the last four or five years?-Yes. I have prepared the following statement, showing the number of men in debt, the total amount of their debts, and the average amount due by each, taking it as a whole:- No. of Men Total Year. in debt. amount of Average. debt. 1868 74 £1044 £14, 2s. 1869 79 1017 13 1870 72 942 13 1871 64 782 12, 4s.

7835. That shows that eight men had wiped off their debt altogether between 1870 and 1871?-Yes. That will prove, I think, that they are not quite so black as they have been painted. They are improving a little. The largest balance was £49, 14s. 21/2d. in 1868, which was reduced to £41, 9s. 9d. in 1871.

7836. The amount of indebtedness at Ollaberry is not included in these figures?-No. The figures I have now given apply only to the Hillswick men, who number about 125.* Four of the indebted men have left since, and are not clear of debt. That would reduce the amount by about £50 in all of the years except the first.

* In a note subsequently received from Mr. Anderson, he says: 'I find, in going over my books, that instead of 125 men, as I believed fished for me last year, I have actually 147. These I find are made up by fee'd men, and several crews who cured and dried their own fish, and from whom I purchased their fish so dried at the end of the season.

[Page 191]

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR SANDISON, examined.

7837. You are a shopman and bookkeeper in Mr. Anderson's establishment at Hillswick?-I am.

7838. You are in the course of making up, at my request, a return from ledger D and ledger V, which are books containing the ledger accounts of the individual fishermen employed at Hillswick?- Yes.

7839. Do both these books contain the accounts of the individual men?-Yes. Ledger D contains the accounts both of the crews and private accounts of the men; and ledger V contains some private accounts.

7840. In proceeding to make up the list, you are taking the names of the last fifty fishermen as they appear in the ledger, and you are inserting in the return the various particulars which have been furnished to you?-Yes.

7841. The return which you are preparing, and which you are to send me, will be correctly taken from Mr. Anderson's books?- Yes, so far as I am able to do it.

7842. Is there any other person here who wishes to be examined? (No answer.) Then I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.

<Adjourned>.

Brae: Saturday, January 13, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie

MAGNUS JOHNSTON, examined.

7843. You keep a shop at Tofts, about a mile from Mossbank?- Yes; I think it is rather more than a mile from Mossbank.

7844. What do you deal in?-Tea, tobacco, sugar and I buy fish too.

7845. Do you cure them yourself?-Yes.

7846. How many boats have you fishing for you?-I have no boats of my own; I just buy a little fish in the winter time, and I cure the men's fish in Feideland in summer. I cure at the fishing-station for Andrew Tulloch, who was examined the other day.

7847. From what fishermen do you buy your fish?-I buy them from any man who comes along, and wants to sell fish to me.

7848. Is that in the winter time only, or in the summer as well?- In the winter only. I am a seaman myself, and I have followed the sea since I was a child, but I stayed at home this year; and in the summer season I cured Tulloch's fish, while the wife and the bairns and I have commenced to sell a little tea and sugar and tobacco, and to buy fish from the small fishing boats in winter.

7849. Is that the way which people hereabout usually take to start a shop business?-I think it is.

7850. Do you keep accounts with the men that you buy the fish from?-No.

7851. Do you pay for them in cash?-Yes; always in cash.

7852. And then they buy some provisions from you?-Yes; if they like.

7853. Are these paid for in cash too?-Yes.

7854. I suppose you find it very uphill work competing with the big shops?-I don't know. I am a kind of rough and ready sailor man, and I don't take much thought about that; it does not give me much concern.

7855. Do the men prefer to deal with the big shops in it general way?-I cannot say as to that.

7856. Do you drive a good business with any of the men besides those who sell their fish to you?-No; some of the neighbours may buy a few provisions from us, but not many. A woman may sell her eggs to us, and get provisions for them.

7857. Where do you get your tea?-From Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.

7858. Do they send their traveller round the country soliciting orders?-Sometimes. He has not been round this winter, and I get my tea when I write for it.

7859. Do you keep pass-books for the business which you do with your customers?-Sometimes, but not many. I think my girl keeps a pass-book sometimes, but I am no scribe myself, and I cannot keep books.

7860. You never were a fisherman?-Not in the home fishing, but I have been at the Faroe fishing as master.

7861. When was that?-About four or five years ago.

7862. Whose vessel were you in?-The late Mr. Hoseason's. I have not been at Faroe since then.

7863. You went from Mossbank then?-Yes; I was one year in a schooner for Mr. Adie too.

7864. Had you the same arrangement then about the fish which exists now, that the men get one-half of the fish, for which they are paid the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

7865. Did you at that time live where you are now?-Yes; and when I went to the Faroe fishing. Some time after I got married I lived in Northmaven, but now for nine years past at Martinmas I have lived at Tofts.

7866. When you went to the Faroe fishing, did you get your supplies from Pole, Hoseason, & Company, when you were employed by them?-No; I generally took my supplies in tea and sugar and other things from Braidwood & Fowler, Sandport Street, Leith. We are friendly yet, and they always send me some present at Christmas.

7867. Then you are rather better off than most of the men?-Yes; in some ways I am.

7868. At least you had sense to get your provisions where you pleased?-Yes; and I had something left by my friends, besides what I earned myself. When I was at the Faroe fishing, I did not think they got fair-play.

7869. Who did not get fair-play?-Not even myself, or any of the men. I knew the fish had been selling at a higher rate than the men got the benefit of; at least I was told so.

7870. Do you think the men were not to blame for that, by making a bargain which left them entirely at the discretion of the merchant? The merchant could fix any price he liked, could he not?-He could. But if I get the loan of a man's boat with which to go to the fishing, and if I engage for one-half of the fish, then, I think, it would only be fair-play to divide the fish in halves, and for the merchant to take one-half, and give me the other.

7871. But you said the men sometimes felt that the price which they got for their fish at the end of the season was lower than it ought to have been, and I was asking you whether you did not think the men had themselves to blame for that. They did not reserve any power to themselves about fixing the price, but left it entirely to the merchants?-Yes.

7872. Then your idea is, that they would have been wiser to have kept some power about that in their own hands?-Yes.

7873. How could they manage that?-They engaged for one-half at the Faroe fishing, and the owners of the vessels ought to have sold the fish conscientiously, and to have given the men the benefit of their half, after taking off curing and other expenses.

7874. But you say the men thought the owners did not always fix the price conscientiously?-I thought so myself.

7875. How would you manage it so that the men could make sure of getting a fair price at the end of the season?-I would let the men stand the chance of the markets so far as the fixing of the price is concerned.

[Page 192]

7876. But is not that the bargain that is made now, that they get the market price at the end of the season?-I believe it is, but it was not so then.

7877. What was the difference in the arrangement then?-I cannot say. They engaged for one-half of the fish at that time, but I know that sometimes they did not get the benefit of the market price.

7878. Do you think they get the benefit of the market price now?-I cannot say, for I have not been at Faroe for five years.

7879. At that time did most of the men who were sailing with you run accounts with the merchant for their outfit and supplies?- Yes.

7880. Had they generally a balance to get in cash settling time?- Yes.

7881. Did you know any men who were behind, and had a balance against them at the end of the year?-I cannot say whether there were any in that position.

7882. You were not in that position yourself?-Never.

7883. What was the reason why the men generally dealt with the merchants who employed them at the fishing?-Perhaps the men did not have money at the time with which to go and buy the articles from any other party, and the man who owned the vessel ready to supply them. That was the way in which it was done, so far as I know.

7884. I suppose some of them had been supplied with goods before they went away to the fishing?-I think so.

7885. And it was a common enough thing for an account to be standing against them when they settled?-I believe it was.

7886. Do you think any of them would have engaged with another merchant in preference for the fishing if they had not had that account?-I cannot say as to that.

7887. Was there any obligation on them to engage with the merchant who supplied them with their goods?-Not so far as I know.

7888. Except that they thought it fair to go and fish for him in order that he might have some security for his advances?-Of course.

7889. How long is it since you opened your shop?-About twenty-one or twenty-two months.

7890. On whose land is it?-The proprietor, Mr. Robert Hoseason, is in New Zealand.

7891. Is it under the management of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-No. Mr. Sievwright, writer in Lerwick, is the agent. Mr. John White and Mr. Cheyne, Edinburgh, are the agents, and they have Mr. Sievwright under them.

7892. Had you any difficulty in getting a place in which to open your business?-No; I had been living there before.

7893. But was any objection made to your opening the shop?-No; there could be none, because I have a lease of the place.

7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years.

7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say, because I never tried.

7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we have none.

7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a peck all through the year.

7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank shop?-I think it is 1d. below it.

7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think so. I get my meal from Aberdeen.

7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say that.

7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost me, adding something for freight.

7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?- There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17.

7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them.

7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know.

7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland Station.

7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I think most of them.

7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I think most of them will.

7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I believe they do.

7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but not to any great extent.

7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?- I cannot say; perhaps I might.

7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?- Not as yet.

7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do with these fish as they please.

7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me.

7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2 tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it.

7915. Are these worth about £20 a ton?-No; I got £17, 10s. last year for them.

7916. Then these fish don't sell so well as the summer cured fish?-No; some of them are very small.

7917. Do the men about you not think it would be more profitable for themselves to cure their own fish?-They could not manage it, because they have no cellars or stores in which to keep salt, or convenient beaches on which to dry the fish.

7918. Did not the men formerly cure their own fish in Shetland to some extent?-I don't know.

7919. Don't they try to do it still?-Some of them do it still in Shetland; but in the winter time they must have a booth for the purpose of salting their fish and keeping them.

7920. Do you sell soft goods in your shop as well as provisions?- No. We sometimes had a bit of white cotton last year for making oil cloths, or the like of that, but we have none now.

7921. Do you think the men about you are not able to purchase from you so much as they would otherwise do from want of having money in their pockets?-That is a thing I cannot say anything about, because I never know what any man has in his pocket. We never talk about that. I might have my ideas on the subject, but I could not speak positively about it.

7922. It is your ideas I want to know, and what, you feel in your own experience. What is your opinion on the subject?-I believe it might be better, for the men if they were allowed to buy or not as they thought proper.

7923. But do you think the extent of your dealings, is less than it would be if the men had ready money payments?-I could not say for that.

[Page 193]

7924. Supposing you provided as good an article as Pole, Hoseason, & Co., would the men come to you in greater numbers if they were paid in cash shorter periods?-I could not say. They just come to as their own minds lead them, but I believe they would still go to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, even although they had money.

7925. But don't you think they are prevented from coming to you by their want of money?-They may be in some cases.

7926. You say you have your own ideas about that: what are they?-I believe it might be the idea of man that he might get a better article if he could come to me for it, or go to Pole Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, just as he liked.

7927. But suppose a man does want to come to you, and I suppose some of your friends would be very glad to deal with you, do you know that they are sometimes in want of money, and thus prevented from coming?-I don't know.

7928. Do the men not prefer to go to a place where they can get what they want on credit?-I don't know about that either.

7929. Have you never been told that?-No.

7930. Have you never suspected it?-No. I think they just go where they please themselves. Perhaps they might get a better bargain from another man than from me, and yet they might come to me or go past me.

7931. Are you quite content with the system of long settlements which goes on at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s, and that the men should run accounts there?-No, I am not satisfied with that. I think it would be better for the people to have no accounts at all.

7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?- Yes.

7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, if I had no money, but if I might go to a shop and take out more goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to whether I would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did not have that liberty, but went into a shop with few pence in his pocket, he might make it spin out better, or more to his own advantage.

7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.

7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving long credit in that way, would require little more profit on your goods?-Of course.

7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general if all payments were made in cash.

7937. Do you employ some men in your curing business?-No; I just do it with my own family. Sometimes I get a little boy to help me for a while, but that is all.

7938. When you were employed in the Faroe fishing, did you get cash from the merchant in the course of season, when you happened to come home, whenever you wanted it?-Yes.

7939. Could your wife get cash?-She did not require it, and she did not ask it.

7940. Is there any sort of feeling that people don't like to ask for cash before the settlement?-That might have been the case with some, but it was not with me, because I did not need the cash until it was due.

7941. Then generally you did not ask for it until it was due?-No.

7942. Do you think there is much money among the people in your neighbourhood during the summer time?-I don't think there is much.

7943. Is it generally spent soon after settling time?-Yes.

7944. Do you find that your cash transactions are greater at one season of the year than at another?-I cannot say that. I have only been one year in business, and I have not made any calculation about that.

Brae, January 13, 1872, ARTHUR THOMAS JAMIESON, examined.

7945. You are the son of Jacob Jamieson, residing at Brae?-Yes.

7946. You were employed by me on Wednesday last to go to Mossbank, and to purchase some articles from the shop of Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., there?-Yes.

7947. You went there and purchased these articles without saying who they were for?-Yes:

7948. You have brought to me half a pound of sugar, for which you paid 3d.?-Yes.

7949. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.

7950. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 7d.?-Yes.

7951. And 4 lbs. of oatmeal for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.

7952. You have now delivered these articles over to the clerk?-I have.

7953. Were these all the articles you purchased?-Yes.

7954. Are they exactly in the same state now as when you bought them?-Yes.

7955. They are contained in the same parcels as when they were put up in the shop?-Yes.

7956. Have you any reason to believe that the prices which you paid for the articles are different from those which are charged for the same qualities of articles at other times in that shop?-There is no difference, so far as I know.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.

7957. Have you a shop?-Yes; a small one.

7958. Where?-At Brough, in North Delting, about two miles from Mossbank.

7959. What do you deal in?-Groceries; nothing else.

7960. On whose land is your shop?-Mr. Gifford's of Busta.

7961. How long have you had it?-The shop has been going on for about ten years.

7962. Were you at any time forbidden, either verbally or by your lease, to have a shop on that ground?-No; I was told to go on.

7963. Was there a shop there before you went?-Yes; they always used to keep some small articles there for sale.

7964. Do your customers generally pay you in ready money?- Yes; I deal all in ready money; and I buy fish for cash. I am a fisherman myself, and I buy few fish from others as I have a chance, paying money for them, and my family cure them.

7965. Is it the summer fishing you go to?-I am at home all the year round at the sea-side, and I fish there, but they are generally small fish I take.

7966. You don't go to the haaf?-No.

7967. Have you a boat's crew?-No. My father and a boy go along with me.

7968. Are you able to cure both your own fish and the fish which you buy from other men?-Yes.

7969. What quantity do you buy from other men?-It varies in different years. When there are plenty of small cod in the Sound, I may have 11/2 ton during the season, while in other seasons I may have only the half of that.

7970. Is it only the small fish you buy?-If bigger fish were offered to me I would buy them, but there are no bigger fish caught along the shores.

7971. Do you not buy fish in the summer time?-Yes.

7972. Do you buy fish brought in by the large boats at that time?- No; the men take them to the stations.

7973. Do they not bring any of the big fish to Mossbank in the summer?-No; they are sold at the stations.

[Page 194]

7974. Do you never go there to buy fish?-No; I am content with the home fishing.

7975. Are the men bound to sell the small fish they get in the winter to any particular merchant?-They sell these fish to any one they like. There is no restriction upon them for that. Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. never say anything about it.

7976. Do you run any accounts in your shop?-Scarcely any. There may be 1s. or an ounce of tobacco or any small thing of that kind, marked down.

7977. Are you often asked to give credit for a short time?-Very often.

7978. The men are not always in possession of ready money?- No; they are very often out of money.

7979. At what period of the year are they best off for money?- About our place in the winter time if it is good, and if they are catching a few cod, that is just about as good a time for them as any.

7980. Do they not also have a good deal of cash after settling time?-After settling time they have always a little.

7981. Is your trade better at that time than at other periods of the year?-When it is good weather, and anything doing at the fishing, or when the men have come from Feideland with the money which they had got at settlement, they trade more at my shop, as a rule, than at other times.

7982. Is June and July a good time for your shop?-Not very good; because most of the men are away at the fishing. There may be two or three boats manned by old men at home; but, with the exception of what they bring in from the Sound, I have nothing else to depend upon.

7983. Are not the men's wives and families at home, and requiring provisions?-Yes; and I may have the chance of a few dozen eggs, or any produce of that sort.

7984. That is for buying, but I mean for selling: is June and July a good season for the selling of your goods?-No; it is the worst time of the year for me.

7985. Why is that?-Because the men are all away at the fishing.

7986. But their wives are left, and they require something to keep them alive?-They are always working in what is called the kelp, and they go to Mr. Pole with that, so that I have no chance of buying it. I might have a chance of it, but I don't think it would pay me, as I don't know anything about it.

7987. Don't you think that if you had the chance of buying as much kelp as you liked in the summer time you might drive a better trade at your shop?-I might do a little better; but Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have the shores contracted for, so that they must get the kelp. They pay so much to Mr. Gifford for the shores, and in return for that they are entitled to the kelp, and they must have it.

7988. Do they pay in ready money for the kelp?-They make no scruple to give ready money for it, if a somewhat lower price is taken.

7989. But the people generally take goods for it?-Yes; they generally take the price in goods, or if they ask money, they will receive 6d. less per cwt., which I think is not unfair.

7990. If it was paid in ready money, I suppose you would have a chance of getting some of the custom of these kelp-gatherers?- Yes; if every man had his freedom to go where he liked, I would have a chance.

7991. Then I suppose the reason why sales are larger in winter and less in summer is, that the people have not ready money to go to your shop for the goods they want?-No; the men are all at the ling fishing in the summer time and all the chance I have is in the winter time, when they are at home fishing in the small boats.

7992. But even although they were at home in summer, they would not have ready money with which to come to you?-No. A man might not have ready money continually, unless he was paid every day for his catch.

7993. Would it not be better for your business if the men were paid every day or every week for their fish?-I don't think it would be any better for me unless I was out at the fishing station.

7994. But their families would have the money, and they might come to you with it?-They might.

7995. The men don't take their wives and children to the fishing station?-No.

7996. But I suppose the wives and children have very little money when the men are away at the stations?-Very little.

7997. Is that the reason why they get their supplies from the merchant's shop?-Yes.

7998. Only if they had the money they might go with it to another dealer, from whom they might get their articles cheaper?-They might.

7999. Do you sell your meal any cheaper than it is sold at the Mossbank shop?-No. I don't see that I can sell it any cheaper than Mr. Pole can.

8000. What is the price of your meal just now?-I deal very little in that. I only sell a few groceries-such as tea, tobacco, sugar, soap, soda, spice, pepper, and things of that kind. I might also have a sack or two of meal about the beginning of August, when it is most required.

8001. Where do you buy your meal?-For the most part in Lerwick, but I send south for a little of it.

8002. Do you think it would be better for the people in the country if a ready money system were introduced?-I think so. I think it would be better for the big merchants also to pay in money. I have had that idea all along, that it would be better both for the merchants and the people to pay in cash.

8003. Why would it be better for the people?-Because they would have the cash to please themselves with, and to go where they liked.

8004. If they could please themselves, do you think they might be able to buy cheaper?-Yes.

8005. If you were getting a large ready-money business, do you think you could sell cheaper than you do now?-I cannot say.

8006. But if a ready-money system were introduced you would try to do that?-Yes, I would and I think I would be able to do so, because the money is in hands and out of hands and there are no bad debts.

Brae, January 13, 1872, Rev. JAMES FRASER, examined.

8007. You have been a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four years?-I have.

8008. You have an intimate acquaintance with the people who live about you, and, among others, with the fishermen?-Yes.

8009. You also know the system of payment and of credit purchases which exists in the district?-I do.

8010. Are you prepared to give any opinion as to the effect of that system upon the circumstances and character of the people?- Yes, I think the effect of it, to some extent, is not very good. It is rather an extensive subject to embrace within one answer, because there are a considerable number of people who are free and independent; they can make their own terms; but there are a great number of people who act on the credit system. That system has gone on, I daresay, from time immemorial, and it has become a great evil in the community, fraught with consequences of different descriptions that are evil.

8011. Are there many of the people whom you would describe as not being free to make their own bargains?-Of course there is hardly any person free to make his own bargain who has no ready money, and who is always in debt; and however well they may be dealt with by the fish-curers,-and I don't know of any case of wrong dealing in that respect-still the people are placed at a disadvantage. I believe the whole community are placed at a disadvantage in consequence of that, because, from the great amount of bad debts, the merchant must charge a higher percentage of profit upon his goods.

[Page 195]

8012. In saying that there is a great amount of bad debts, do you mean that there is a large proportion of debts in the merchants books which are never paid?-That is what I mean.

8013. Do you not mean that some of them are only very long delayed, and are liquidated only when a good fishing season comes?-Both statements are true. There are some of them which are very long delayed, and others which are delayed for ever, and never paid at all.

8014. You think that both these causes oblige the merchants to charge a higher price for goods than they otherwise would do?- Decidedly; but there is a greater evil than that still. Sometime in the course of Providence, an accident occurs, and families are left destitute, and the merchant has the disagreeable alternative of either losing his own debt, or putting the law in force and driving the families to extremity. That, however, is never done; but in such a case there might be an appeal to public benevolence in order to save human life, and that appeal is always responded to.

8015. What is the peculiarity in that case which you wish to point out?-The peculiarity in that case is, that I should wish the people to be placed in such circumstances that an appeal of that kind would not need to be made.

8016. Do you think such an appeal would be unnecessary if the credit system did not exist?-It would be unnecessary to a certain extent; but, at the same time, I can hardly see how to get rid of the credit system. I believe the merchants themselves feel it to be a much more trying thing, or at least fully as trying a thing, as I do. I look at it from one point of view, and they suffer from it from another.

8017. Is it within your own knowledge that a large portion of the people here are in a state of permanent indebtedness to the merchants?-I don't know to what extent they may be in a state of permanent indebtedness. I believe that a great number of them are very seldom clear, but of course there is a large proportion of the community who are clear from year to year.

8018. Do you mean that there is a large proportion of the men who are clear once in a year?-There are a great number who are always clear. There are number of the people who have never been in debt, and I believe never will be.

8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger extent than is good for the community.

8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other districts of the country?-I don't think so.

8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit system prevails in Scotland.

8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least to the independence of some of the people.

8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent, when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do to clear himself.

8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that there are a good many people who are living this year on their next year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in advance of that.

8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you have derived your information from the parties you speak of?- Yes.

8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another. I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants themselves, and some from the people.

8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the circumstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes.

8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been discussed in the public press.

8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without their farms.

8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast. Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them.

8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone.

8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance of fish.

8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their families out of the question altogether.

8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year.

8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?- Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash, but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him as from anybody else.

8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to get the money.

8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for hosiery in Shetland.

8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty in getting money.

8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price in goods?-Yes.

8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer because bought with hosiery. That is the principal cause of complaint that I have heard of.

8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as when they are paid for in cash.

8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case,

8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some places there are.

8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint among the women, and I think there is justice in it.

8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some places.

8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it.

8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal. The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compassion, to give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or if he does, it is a long time before it comes.

8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated.

8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it.

8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know, but to some extent it must.

8051. Have you known any case in which that became very evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case.

8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be supplied to them.

8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate their land, and grow their own meal.

8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes.

8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed in such security that they knew they were working for themselves, so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow half as much again as they do at present.

8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater number of their small holdings.

8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves.

8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any better way coming into operation.

8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything.

8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that.

8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both systems in Shetland?-I am.

8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade, has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the same kind of ground.

8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

8064. And the circumstances in both cases being exactly the same, except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence should be in favour of a man who works with the plough.

8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior.

8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have any security. They don't know who they are working for. There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him), who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison whatever between the crops.

8067. Then is the remedy you suggest, a system of lease-holding?-Yes.

8068. Is there any reason why that does not exist in Shetland already?-I don't know any particular reason for it.

8069. Have the tenants in many places not been offered leases?-In some cases they have been offered leases, and I believe they have refused them, but I don't know for what reason.

8070. Have you any observation to make upon the subject of fixing the price of the fishermen's catch at the end of the season?-I have no observation to make on that subject, for I am not able to see how far it would be to the advantage of the fisherman to fix the price beforehand. I don't think it would be an advantage to him; indeed, I think the fisherman would be greater loser by a fixed price than he is just now.

8071. Is that because he would still have to obtain his supplies on credit?-Not so much that; but for one thing, the merchant's or fish-curer's knowledge of what the market is likely to be, is ahead of that of the fisherman; and I think it holds good more or less, by common sense, that the merchant should try to secure safety for himself in the bargain which he makes. The probability therefore is, that the fisherman would suffer more in that case than he does at present.

8072. You think the merchant has better means of foreseeing the course of the markets than the fishermen?-I think so; and although I believe the merchants hereabouts would generally give the men all the advantage they could, I cannot see how it would be possible that by fixing the price beforehand the fisherman would be the gainer.

8073. Is there any reason to suppose that the fishermen have not a sufficient voice in fixing what the current price is to be at the end of the season?-I don't think the fishermen have any voice in that at all, and I don't know how far the merchant or fish-curer [Page 197] has either. It must be regulated by the south-country markets.

8074. Would it be any advantage to the fishermen in your neighbourhood to have periodical payments up to a certain amount of their catch, leaving the balance to be fixed, and the price also, or a portion of it to be fixed at the end of the season?-I don't think that would be any advantage, and there is one disadvantage which would certainly follow such a system. There are some men who will take care of their money, pay it to them when you like; but those who take least care of it would spend it as they got it, and the merchants having paid ready money to them, there would be nobody who would advance anything to them when they wished to pay their land-rent or other debts.

8075. Are these careless men not equally apt, under the present system, to take too much in goods, and to exhaust their earnings too early?-Perhaps they are, but there is some check upon them under the present system, whereas if they got the money in their own hands there would be none.

8076. What is the check upon them?-The merchant himself will be a check, if a man is running an account which he is not likely to meet. I am not able to say how far the system you have suggested would be an advantage to the people. It might be an advantage, but I cannot see it.*

* The following letter was afterwards addressed to the Commissioner by Mr. Fraser:- SULLAM, 18<th January> 1872. W. GUTHRIE, Esq. SIR,-You will perhaps allow me to supplement the evidence gave at Brae the other day by a few notes. I did not bring out all I wished to say on the credit system. It would require more time than could than be allowed to one witness, and more writing than I would like to trouble you with now, to explain it fully.

Credit has become almost a necessity in Shetland in the present condition of the islands and it has gone on so long that the moral ton of society has suffered in consequence of it. The present fish-curers and merchants have not created the system; it existed before them, and they have taken it up as a necessary evil.

Shetland fisherman may be divided into three classes. The first class are free men. They have never been in debt, and hope never to be. The second class, under the present circumstances, come in debt, but they don't like it, and get out of it as soon as they can. The third class do not seem to have any particular dislike to it. When the Commissioner asked me at Brae if I had known men lose their independence by coming in debt, or something like that, I had this class in my mind, and I was puzzled what to say. I think the loss must have been sustained long, long ago, for they have always appeared to me as a party who never had anything of the sort to lose.

The moral evils of the system to this class need not be mentioned. I will name one or two of its physical effects.

1. It largely increases pauperism, by raising a false standard by which to regulate one's expenditure. When one of this class falls from earning, he is fit only for the Parochial Board.

2. In case of a boat accident, or in a season like 1869, the prospect is most appalling. In that year the crop was very largely a failure; many of the people had gone as deep in debt as they could go; and but for the aid sent by the Society of Friends, some of the people would assuredly have died, and a still larger number could not have sown their ground. The timely aid sent by the Friends and those whom they enlisted with them in their benevolent work, prevented both these consequences.

There are not a few families in Shetland-bereaved families, I mean-supported by funds supplied by the benevolence of south country ladies and gentlemen, who otherwise must have starved, or fall with a crushing weight upon the Parochial Boards.

Now, for all this, so far as I know, there is only one remedy- the improvement of the soil. The people are cultivating just the same ground their <great-grandfathers> did, and most of the ground now cultivated has never rested in the memory of living man, or perhaps as long before. New earth is made to supply the yearly waste, and thus the ground in the neighbourhood of a few small farms is so robbed as to be rendered useless for generations, unless it happens to have earth enough to allow of laying down the surface, and a proprietor or factor who binds the people to do it.

There is, in general, plenty of unreclaimed land lying close by these small farms which might be broken up and brought under crop, and some of the old allowed to rest. In some places there are plenty of stones to hedge in a small croft of land where grass might be sown, but nothing is done. That unreclaimed land is made to do duty by keeping life in a few cows-two, or more. During the summer season, the merchant supplies the meal as long as he can, and so things continue its they are. No man who may receive a forty days', or even a six months', warning, is likely to exert himself to bring more ground under crop. The thing wanted is leasehold of the property by the tenant. But I am told the tenants will not take a lease. It may be so; but before the statement be admitted as true, the sort of lease offered them would require to be seen. There are leases offered which no man of common sense would take. There is property in Shetland, and plenty of it, that in a 19 years lease could be made 50 per cent. better than it is, and be a better bargain then, than now. And all this might be done without costing the proprietor one shilling. Let him give it lease on reasonable terms.

There is just one thing more I would like to state. I am referring to the evidence given last year before the Commissioner in Edinburgh, it was then stated by Mr. Walker, that the hills were doing the people no good, and therefore he had taken them from them. The latter part of this statement is true, but on the former part of it I would beg to say, the native sheep reared on these hills supply material for knitting, and the female part of the population are clad almost entirely from that source alone. Then the female members of the house generally provide during the winter months warm underclothing for the fisherman, without which he could not pursue his hazardous occupation. Bedclothes are also largely supplied from the same source. Leave all these to be supplied by the fisherman from his scanty earnings, and it requires no prophet to foretell the result.

To say that the hills were doing the people no good, either manifests great ignorance of the subject, or something worse.-I am, Sir, your most obedient servant, James Fraser.

Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS GIFFORD, examined,

8077. You are the factor on the estate of Busta?-I am.

8078. I believe that is the largest estate in Shetland?-I believe it is.

8079. What is the rental?-£2700.

8080. Are there any leases on the estate?-Yes, there are a good many.

8081. Are these of the small holdings or of the large holdings only?-There are leases of both.

8082. Do the majority of the fishermen tenants have leases?-Not the majority.

8083. Or a considerable number?-I could hardly say there are a considerable number; only a small number, I think.

8084. I understand that the tenants on the Busta estate are entirely free to fish for any person with whom they may choose to engage?-Yes; and a great many of them go south and follow different employments,

8085. How many large mercantile establishments or shops are there on the Busta property which are held by fish-curers?-Four. There is one at Voe, one at Brae, one at Hillswick, and one at Lochend (Mr. Laurenson's).

8086. I presume these are all the large establishments of that kind in the district of Delting and Northmaven, except the shop at Mossbank?-No; Messrs. Hay & Company have one at North Roe, at the very farthest extremity of Northmaven, and then there are fishing stations at Stenness and Feideland.

8087. But at these stations the fishermen are all employed by one or other of the merchants whose places of business you have enumerated?-Yes.

8088. And all these merchants hold their shops under the Busta trustees?-Yes.

8089. Have they all leases?-Yes.

8090. Can you tell me from recollection what the rents of these shops are?-The shops are not separately rented; they are let along with farms in every case.

8091. The merchants are not tacksmen of any tenants, but they have farms?-Yes; merely their own farms.

8092. Is there any prohibition to sub-let on these farms?-Yes; in every case.

8093. What are the rents of these four parties?-£327 for the four.

8094. In the district from Busta extending to the march of the Gossaburgh property at North Roe, is the greater part of the land under your management?-Yes.

8095. The greater part of it belongs to the Busta estate?-Yes; three-fourths of it perhaps.

8096. Is there any understanding with the four merchants you have mentioned, that no other shops than theirs shall be opened upon your property?-No, a shop can be opened at any place.

8097. Have you objected in any case to the opening of shops, lest it should interfere with the business of these lessees?-I have not. There are several shops that have been opened lately.

8098. Were these small shops?-Yes; there was one you passed at the head of the voe going to Hillswick.

[Page 198]

8099. Is that Arthur Harrison's?-Yes; and there is one opposite it again, on the Roenessvoe side.

8100. Is there any apprehension on the part of the Busta trustees lest the rent paid by the larger establishments should be reduced by the opening of smaller shops?-None.

8101. Is it not the case that some difficulty was put in the way of Harrison opening his shop?-I believe something was said about it, but there was no reality in it.

8102. There was an objection made to it at first, was there not?- Yes; I believe there was some objection made, but there is nothing in the lease that could prevent it in any way.

8103. Nothing in what lease?-Nothing in Mr. Anderson's lease binding us to refuse, and nothing in any lease on the Busta property.

8104. Is there not an obligation in some of the leases of the tenants that no shops are to be opened on their holdings?-They are not allowed to open shops unless they ask permission. That is only to be done with the consent of the trustees.

8105. You say that Harrison was refused permission at first, but that shortly afterwards he was granted permission to open his shop?-I did not refuse him permission at first. Some other parties objected to him getting it, and said that no shops could be opened within a certain distance of Hillswick.

8106. Was it Mr. Anderson who objected?-Yes, I believe he did object.

8107. Was that by letter, or personally?-I don't think he objected to me by letter. He may have mentioned it to the trustees, or their agent, but his lease had been got some considerable time before Harrison thought of opening the shop, so that he knew he could not stop it.

8108. But he did object notwithstanding?-Yes; I think he objected at first when he was taking his lease. I think he wished it to be put in that way.

8109. The hesitation which existed about giving Harrison the lease, or the delay in agreeing to give him his lease, was due, I suppose, to Mr. Anderson's objection?-Harrison has got a lease.

8110. He has got it now, but it was refused, or at least delayed, when he first applied for it, was it not?-No; Harrison was only permitted to sell lately, but he had his lease before.

8111. But was not the permission to sell refused at first in consequence of Mr. Anderson objecting to it?-There was something said about it, but it was not practically refused.

8112. Had you had any communication with Mr. Adie before finally giving Harrison permission to sell?-None whatever.

8113. Neither verbally nor by letter?-Neither verbally nor by letter.

8114. Did you understand that Harrison was going to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes; I understood he was going to cure fish for Mr. Adie, or any other body he could get them to cure for.

8115. And he informed you that he had made a contract with Mr. Adie for curing fish at the time when you granted the permission?-I think he went from Busta to Lerwick, and spoke to Mr. Harrison and some other fish-curers, and I believe he expected to get some from Mr. Harrison, and some from Mr. Adie; but so far as I am aware, he has only got them from Mr. Adie. But he was quite open to take them from any party he could make the best bargain with.

8116. Had you any letter from Mr. Anderson objecting to Harrison opening a shop?-No, so far as I am aware.

8117. You think he only wrote to some of the other trustees?-I am not aware that he has written a letter about it since he got his lease. I think he objected to it about the time he took his lease.

8118. But not at the time when Harrison was wanting to sell?- No; I think at the time when Mr. Anderson took his lease he wished it mentioned that no other party should be allowed to sell within four miles of him, but that was not entered in the lease.

8119. Then do you mean that no objection was made by Mr. Anderson to Harrison being allowed to sell goods at the time when he (Harrison) was applying for that permission?-There is no doubt Mr. Anderson may have objected to him, or to any other party, doing so, but he could not do it in any way so as to affect Harrison.

8120. Was that because the power of granting or refusing permission lay entirely with you?-I suppose so.

8121. But, in point of fact, did Mr. Anderson make no objection to you or to any of the Busta trustees, so far as you know, to Harrison being allowed to sell?-I am not aware whether he made any application to the trustees, or their agent. I know that he mentioned the matter more than once but that is all I know.

8122. He said that he thought Harrison should not get permission?-Yes; that is all he did. I am not aware that he wrote to the trustees on the subject after he got his lease.

8123. But he mentioned it to you when you met him personally?- Yes; he mentioned it more than once.

8124. And that was about the time when Harrison was applying for leave to open his shop?-Yes.

8125. I presume there is no understanding between the Busta trustees and any of the merchants whose establishments are upon the estate that these merchants are responsible for the rents of the men?-There is no understanding of the kind. There is not a single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole 480 on it, or out of the 530 with whom I have to do that any of the merchants is liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be the case some time before but it has not been so for a long time.

8126. Do you know, in the course of your dealings with the tenants, whether there is any arrangement between the merchants you have named, or any of them, to the effect that when a man ceases to fish for one and has a debt due to him, the merchant who engages him must undertake that debt?-There is no such arrangement that I am aware of. Some years ago, I believe, that was done by some parties, but I don't think it is done by any of them now. I refer to the practice of a merchant when he engages men taking over the debt or part of the debt which they are due to their old employer.

8127. You don't know about that?-Yes, I know about it. I know that there was such an arrangement some years ago.

8128. I suppose if Mr. Anderson told you it not given up, you would be quite prepared to believe that that arrangement still exists?-I believe it was given up, because in most of the cases when a merchant took over a debt in that way, very little of the old debt was paid. I have known parties take over with debts of £15 and £20 standing against them, and these debts never were reduced.

8129. Had you any concern with that arrangement yourself?- None whatever. I merely heard of it.

8130. I believe most of the merchants or fish-curers are also dealers in cattle?-I believe they are, to some extent.

8131. They purchase them both privately and at the periodical sales which are held for each estate?-Yes.

8132. Would you describe shortly the nature of the sales that are held? They are held twice a-year, are they not?-Yes, twice a-year for the Busta and Ollaberry tenants, and they are sometimes held at North Roe for the Gossaburgh tenants. But there are always sales at Ollaberry and Mavisgrind, generally at the end of October, for the tenants cattle.

8133. What is the reason for having sales for these particular estates?-Merely to give the tenants the advantage of having their cattle sold. I am not aware any other reason than that. At the Busta sale cattle belonging to other parties are taken in, as well as cattle belonging to the tenants, although it is only for the benefit of the tenants on the estate that the sales are held.

8134. At these sales, are many of the cattle purchased [Page 199] by the merchants?-A good many. With reference to my former statement, that £327 is the rent of the four shops, I wish to explain that that is much short of what it should be. It is nearly £450 for the four; and my explanation of that is, that Mr. Adie has got a large park in connection with his premises, and Mr. Inkster and Mr. Anderson have the same at Brae and Hillswick, and they all require to buy extensively for their parks.

8135. Are you acquainted with the practice in this country of a creditor marking cattle, and holding them as a kind of security for debt?-Yes.

8136. Is that a common thing here?-I don't know if it is common; but I have known several cases where it has been done.

8137. I suppose that where a merchant does that it is not held to interfere with the landlord's hypothec or his rent?-No. The rents are generally paid before the merchants interfere in any way with the cattle.

8138. But when a merchant interferes with cattle in that way, or purchases them in at a sale, he buys them of course subject to the landlord's right?-If he buys them at a sale, he buys them direct off, and pays the money for them; but if he secures the animal privately, it generally remains with the party until it is taken away. In a transaction of that kind, the animal is priced, and it is removed at a convenient time for both parties. It does not come to a public sale at all.

8139. The animal, in that case, is retained by the tenant?-It is marked and priced and retained by the tenant, and taken over by the purchaser when he wants it.

8140. The cattle are priced the time they are pledged, or marked as it were?-I believe they are.

8141. Is that an arrangement between the merchant and the tenant?-Entirely.

8142. And they arrange the price between themselves, or does the merchant put the price on the cattle?-I think it is a mutual arrangement, because there is much competition for cattle, that the merchant must do that.

8143. Do you think there is any understanding between the merchants, that when a marked beast is exposed at any one of these periodical sales, the other merchants shall not bid against the merchant for whom the animal has been marked, but that it shall be knocked down to him?-I believe that very few of the marked animals are ever exposed at the sales, but I have known them exposed in some cases. I have known cattle being marked in that way, or pledged to Mr. Inkster at Brae; and if brought to the sale, they would have been entered in his name or in the name of the party who brought them, and the sellers would have got the full price.

8144. But more commonly, cattle that are so marked are taken over by the merchant himself privately?-Yes. I have known no other cases of parties bringing them to the sale, except Mr. Inkster.

8145. If a merchant does take over a beast in that way privately, I suppose you would still hold him responsible for the rent, if still unpaid, to the extent of the value of that beast, and if the period of your hypothec had not expired?-Certainly.

8146. Do you often have occasion to arrange with merchants in that sort of way?-No, very seldom. The rents are very generally paid up.

8147. Do you think the introduction of a system of short settlements, if it could be effected, would improve the character of the people on the Busta estate?-I believe it would.

8148. You would be in favour of such a system?-Certainly I would.

8149. From what you know of the country and of the people, do you think such a system would be practicable?-I don't know if it would be practicable in some cases. With regard to the fishermen, I don't think a short-settlement system would be practicable.

8150. Is that because the men are so much in need of advances at the beginning of the season?-Yes; they cannot get on until they receive advances. There would be no fishing at all if there were no advances.

8151. But under another system would advances be impracticable?-I don't know what that other system might be.

8152. Suppose the agreement was that the fishermen were to receive a bounty at the beginning of the season, which would enable them to equip themselves, and that the price for the fish was fixed at the end, so that the men would have the advantage of any rise that might take place, would that system be a better one than the present, in your opinion?-They would not have the advantage of the rise if the price were fixed.

8153. I am not supposing the price to be fixed. I am supposing the man to get a bounty which would be calculated very considerably within the probable value of his catch of fish for the season, and that the settlement was made at the end according to the market price when the fisherman would get anything additional that might be due?-I am not aware how that system might work.

8154. Have you any knowledge of the system adopted at Wick with regard to the herring fishery?-Yes. I know something about it.

8155. Is there not some system of that kind followed there?-I could not say just now.

8156. Do you think the system of paying for hosiery in goods is a good one?-No; I think it is a very bad system. I think the hosiery should be paid for in money, and the goods sold at the same price.

8157. Do you think the system has a bad effect in the separation of interests it creates between the different members of the same family?-I think it has a bad effect in this way, that some parties would be more careful if they had their money, whereas at the present time they don't have the chance of that.

8158. Does the same objection apply to the long settlements with the fishermen which you make with regard to the system of paying for the hosiery?-Yes. There is often a long settlement in the payment for the hosiery too. There is an account run for the payment of hosiery with many of the women. That would not signify so much if they were paid in cash when the settlement comes; but I am not aware that that is done, except perhaps in a few cases.

8159. Do you think women are induced under the present system to take more articles of dress than they require?-Not of dress.

8160. But they take anything they require unless money?-Some of them take provisions, and meal, and tea.

8161. In your part of the country, are provisions given for hosiery as well as goods?-Yes, and I know that hereabout a little cash is given too, but in very exceptional cases.*

*Mr. Gifford handed in the following statement, showing the number of holdings on the Busta and other estates under his charge and the amount of rent-

<No. of holdings on Busta. No. of holdings on other properties.>

Under £1 29 Under £1 2 " 2 38 " 2 2 " 3 53 " 3 5 " 4 83 " 4 4 " 5 101 " 5 8 " 6 92 " 6 9 " 7 86 " 7 8 " 8 19 " 8 4 " 9 11 " 9 4 " 10 2 " 12 2 " 12 7 " 14 1 " 14 4 Larger holdings 1 Larger holdings 5 50 480 Total rental, £2701 13 8 Total rental, £344 2 0

Brae, January 13, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTIAN JOHNSTON, examined.

8162. Are you the wife of a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-My husband was a fisherman once, but he does not fish now.

8163. Do you knit or weave?-I both knit and make gray cloth.

[Page 200]

8164. Do you sell both these articles at Brae or in Lerwick?-I sell them to any person that I get the wool from. I don't have wool of my own.

8165. By whom are you generally employed?-I have made some gray cloth for Mr. Anderson and some for Mr. Adie.

8166. Is it mostly gray cloth that you make?-Yes.

8167. Do you go to the shops and get the wool when you are out of it?-Yes.

8168. Do you buy it, or is it given to you?-We buy it.

8169. When you go back with it, are you paid for the work which you have put upon it?-We buy the wool, and then they buy the cloth from us again.

8170. What do you pay for the wool?-I bought 28 lbs. of it, and it was 1s. a lb.

8171. Do you spin it yourself?-Yes.

8172. How do you make the cloth?-There are men on the islands called wabsters who weave it.

8173. Then you spin the wool and take it to the wabsters to weave?-Yes.

8174. Do you pay for the wool when you get it at first?-We cannot pay for the wool until we get the cloth.

8175. Is it put down in your account?-Yes.

8176. And you are charged 1s. for it?-Yes.

8177. Do you take your web back to the merchant, or does the wabster take it to him?-I take the web and dress it, and go to the merchant with it.

8178. Who pays the wabster?-The merchant of course; it comes off what I have to get.

8179. Is the wabster paid at the time when he does the work, or when you come back from the merchant?-I pay him when I come back from the merchant after I have sold the cloth.

8180. How much cloth would you make out of 28 lbs. of wool?-I made 27 yards out of it.

8181. You make about a yard of cloth out of a pound of wool?- Yes; that is generally the way of it when it is ordinary wool.

8182. What is the price put upon the cloth when you take it back to the merchant?-That is just as the price stands; sometimes the price is up and sometimes not.

8183. But you spoke of a particular time when you got 28 lbs. of wool: was that long ago?-I got it in Christmas week, and I went back with it in the month of April.

8184. What did you get for it?-I got 2s. a yard.

8185. That would be 1s. a yard, for your work and the wabster?- Yes.

8186. Is that about an ordinary price?-It was the price that was given then.

8187. Do you sometimes get more than that?-Yes; if the price is up. I have got as high as 3s. 5d. for it.

8188. Was that long ago?-It is a few years since; I cannot recollect exactly.

8189. How are you paid for the cloth: do you get money for it?- Some pay in money and some not.

8190. Where do you get money?-I have got money in Mr. Adie's.

8191. Did you get money at that time when you went in April?- No.

8192. Why?-I don't know.

8193. What did you get?-I had just to take anything that was in the shop

8194. Were you told that you would not get money?-Yes.

8195. Did you want money?-Of course, I wanted a little.

8196. How much did you ask for?-I asked for the wabster's money. It was rather more than 6s.

8197. Did you get it?-Yes.

8198. Did you say you had to pay the wabster?-Yes; he was an old man, and I had to pay him.

8199. Why did you not get the rest in money?-The merchant made an objection that he would not.

8200. Why?-I don't know why.

8201. Did he say the bargain was that was to be paid in goods?- No, he could not say that.

8202. Why? Had you agreed upon a price before?-No.

8203. You were just to take the price that was the market price when you brought the cloth back?-Yes.

8204. Did you offer to take a less price if he gave the money?-He would give no money at all.

8205. Are you ever paid in money for your cloth?-Yes. I have been paid in money for some cloth.

8206. Is it a general thing in the country to pay in money, or to pay in goods?-When people have wool of their own, they make a difference.

8207. How would they make a difference?-Because if the wool had belonged to me I could have gone to any other merchant and sold it, but the wool was his.

8208. Was not the wool your own in this case?-If I had been able to pay for the wool when I took out, then it would have been my own.

8209. You mean that you got the wool on credit?-Yes.

8210. You had bought the wool, but you had not paid for it?-Yes.

8211. It was entered against you at 1s. a pound?-Yes.

8212. Then the wool was your own, although you might be owing Mr. Adie money for the price?-It was not Mr. Adie that that wool belonged to: it was Mr. Anderson that I got it from.

8213. And he would not give you the money at all?-He would not.

8214. Why did you not take it to somebody else and sell it for, money? If you had done that, you could then have sent the 28s. to Mr. Anderson, which you were due to him for the wool: did you not think of doing that?-No; I did not think of doing it.

8215. Could you have done that?-I might; I don't know; I never asked.

8216. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have objected, or would he have allowed you to take the cloth away again after you had brought it?-I cannot say because I never asked about that.

8217. Did you ever ask money before with which to pay the wabster?-Yes.

8218. Did you get it?-I have got money before from Mr. Anderson himself,-money to pay the wabster.

8219. Did you get as much as you wanted for that purpose?-Yes; just for the wabster.

8220. But not for your own work?-No.

8221. You had to take what was due you for your own work in goods?-Yes.

8222. I suppose you always wanted these goods for your own use?-We are always needing goods.

8223. But were you quite content to take the goods in place of money?-Yes, sometimes.

8224. You would rather have had the money sometimes?-Yes.

8225. But was it not the rule in the trade, and was it not the bargain made with you, that you were to take goods, and not to seek money?-No; there was no bargain made about it.

8226. Is it not the understanding in the trade that the cloth is to be paid for in goods and not in money?-I don't know.

8227. Have you made any cloth since that?-Yes. I made a piece for Mr Adie, but I got the money for it.

8228. Did you get money for the whole value?-Yes.

8229. Or was it just what you required for the wabster?-No; I got money for all that I had to get.

8230. Did you get the wool on that occasion from Mr. Adie?- Yes.

8231. He just charged you for the wool and gave you the whole balance for your work in money?-Yes.

8232. What quantity was there of that?-I don't recollect; we are always getting something out of the shop.

8233. Then you did not get the whole price of your work at that time in money?-No; I had got something out of the shop before that I was needing.

8234. You were due an account at the shop?-Yes.

[Page 201]

8235. Was that account as much as the value of the cloth?-No.

8236. You had something over to get?-Yes.

8237. Did you get what was over in money?-Yes, I got £1.

8238. Was that lately?-It was before Christmas.

8239. Do you keep an account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-No, I keep no account.

8240. But you had an account at the time when you settled for that cloth?-Yes.

8241. How long had that account been running?-For about two years.

8242. Did you go and get the wool and make the cloth in order to settle up that account?-Yes.

8243. Was your husband fishing at the time when you were due that account?-No; it was my own account.

8244. Is it a usual thing for a woman, when she is making cloth in that way, to have an account of her own with the merchant?-Yes.

8245. She gets the goods she wants and then settles for them when she brings the cloth?-Yes.

8246. How often do you settle when you have an account running in that way?-It is not often that I make the cloth, for I have very little time in which to make it.

8247. Do you ever knit?-I knit very little except what is required for my own family.

8248. Do any of your daughters help you in making the cloth or in knitting?-Yes.

8249. You all work at it?-Yes.

8250. Have you separate accounts, or do you all keep the same account with the merchant for your cloth?-We all keep the same account. We have no separate accounts.

8251. Do you think you would be better off if you got the whole payment of your cloth in money?-We might be better, but we are always needing something from the merchant.

8252. You don't think you could buy your goods any cheaper if you had money?-I don't know.

Brae, January 13, 1872, MRS GRACE WILLIAMSON, examined.

8253. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.

8254. Do you knit and also make cloth?-Yes.

8255. Have you heard what Mrs. Johnston said just now?-Yes.

8256. Have you the same way of dealing about your cloth which she has described?-No. I do not make any cloth except with what little wool I have of my own, and I sell it. I am paid for it just at the price which is going.

8257. Are you paid for it in money or in goods?-I get the price either in goods or in money, either way I choose to ask it.

8258. Do you generally get the same price for your cloth if you take it in money?-Yes. I sold a piece this winter to Mr. Adie, and I got the same in money for it as I would have got in goods.

8259. How much did you sell?-I sold about 30 yards.

8260. What was the price of it?-3s. 1d.

8261. Was the price higher then than it was in April?-Yes.

8262. Was your cloth better than Mrs. Johnston's?-I do not know.

8263. Was that paid to you altogether in money?-No; I took some goods.

8264. Had you an account at the shop at that time?-No. I never had any kind of credit in the shop before. I did not mark anything.

8265. Had you got anything before from the shop at all?-No.

8266. You just took some goods at the time when you took in the cloth?-Yes.

8267. What was the price of the goods you bought?-I can scarcely recollect.

8268. Was it £2 or £3?-No; I think it was something more than £1, but I cannot recollect.

8269. And you got the rest in money?-Yes.

8270. That would be £3 or £4 you would get in money?-I don't recollect what it was. My husband was along with me, and I did not keep an account for myself.

8271. Was it your husband that took in the cloth?-He and I were together.

8272. Have you always continued dealing in the same manner, getting what you wanted in goods, and as much as you required in money?-Yes, of course. Mr. Inkster is the only merchant we have any credit with.

8273. Have you an account with Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

8274. Does your husband fish for him?-Yes.

8275. And do you sell cloth to him too?-Yes; I sold some last year to him.

8276. Have you a book with him?-No; we don't keep any account ourselves. The things are entered in the book which he keeps himself.

8277. Have you an account with him in your own name as well as your husband?-I don't have any account in my name. One account serves for us both.

8278. Is it customary in these parts for one account to do for both husband and wife?-I don't know about any one except myself.

8279. Do you knit any?-A little but the cloth is the most that I do.

8280. Do you get money for your cloth at Mr. Inkster's place if you want it?-Yes, we get money if we ask for it.

8281. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year when you settle?-Yes.

8282. That balance is for your husband's fish and for your cloth?-Yes.

8283. That is to say, what you have to get for your fish and your cloth is a good deal more than you have to pay for things you have got out of the shop?-Of course it is.

8284. And you have to pay your rent out of that balance?-Yes.

8285. Have you always been in the habit of getting money for your wabster?-Yes; when we require money and ask for it we get it.

8286. Would you have got as much money two or three years ago as you got the last time you went with cloth?-No; cloth was not so high last year as it was then.

8287. But suppose you had, two or three years ago, taken a web that was worth £4, would you have got £2 or £3 in money on the price of it?-Yes, if I had asked for it I would have got it.

8288. Would you have got that five years ago if you had been selling it at that time?-I don't know about five years ago. I don't recollect.

8289. Did you ever get as much money before as you got on that last occasion?-Yes; but we took goods when we required them. There were some years ago when we were getting a bigger price. Mr. Anderson gave 3s. 8d. out-takes (<i.e.> in goods), and 3s. 5d. in money; but I don't recollect how long ago that was.

8290. Then there were two prices for your cloth?-Yes.

8291. Did you ever sell £4 worth of cloth four or five years ago?- I don't think it.

8292. Did you ever sell £2 worth?-I think so.

8293. Did you ever get one-half or three-fourths of that in money?-I cannot recollect; it was always my husband who went with it, and he would recollect better.

8294. Did you ever get above 5s. in money for your wabster before this time?-Yes; we have got more than that, if we asked for it.

8295. How much more?-I cannot say exactly. We just got what we asked, unless the price was all the lower.

8296. Did you ever get 10s. in cash before?-Yes.

8297. Did you ever get 15s. in cash?-Yes.

[Page 202]

8298. Or £1?-Yes: I have got that too, if I had to get, and if I was not taking out goods.

8299. If you got £1, how much would be the price of the web which you took in?-I could not say unless I recollected exactly what number of yards there were.

8300. But you said you never sold as much as £4 worth before?-I don't mind about that. I may have done it, but I don't recollect.

8301. Do you ever mind of selling £3 worth?-Yes.

8302. Did you ever get £1 in cash out of that?-Yes; I would have got £1 out of that.

8303. But did you get it?-Well, we have got it, but I cannot mind the time exactly.

8304. Do you think it has been easier to get cash for your webs during the last year than it was before?-It may have been; but we were always needing goods, and it is just as well for us to take goods when we are needing them, as to get money and go anywhere else farther off. Of course, if we did not get goods here at a reasonable price, we might get them farther off.

8305. I suppose you know that you want the goods yourself?- Yes.

8306. And you know that the merchant would rather sell you the goods than give you money?-I cannot say that I ever saw any case with any merchant I ever dealt with where he would not give us the money if we had asked for it. I never was much in debt to any merchant.

8307. But it was mostly your husband that took the goods in?- Yes. I never was much in with any merchant, and therefore I could go to any place where thought I could get most for my work.

Brae, January 13, 1872, MARGARET WILLIAMSON, examined.

8308. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.

8309. Do you knit or make cloth?-I knit mostly, but I make some cloth too. I knit men's shirts and women's sleeves.

8310. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have to buy some but I have some of my own too.

8311. The wool was not given out to you to knit?-No.

8312. Where do you sell what you knit?-For the last three years I have sold it in Lerwick.

8313. Do you always go to Lerwick with it?-Yes, with all that I knit.

8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get goods, because I can get nothing else.

8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken in and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they would not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.

8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.

8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at length, but they said we must take goods.

8318. Did you need all these goods for your own use?-I needed them all at that time, but I don't need them all now. If I knit any, I need hardly any goods now.

8319. If you were knitting now, you would rather have the money?-Yes; because I am needing hardly anything else.

8320. Do you live with your parents?-Yes.

8321. I suppose you would like to help them a little in keeping the house if you could get money for your knitting?-Yes; because my father is an old man, and is very sickly, and he is not able to keep the house as he used to do.

8322. Is it the case that you cannot help him because you cannot get money for your knitting?-Yes; I cannot help him in that way.

8323. Have you ever given away any of the goods you have got to your neighbours for money or for provisions?-No; I kept them all to myself.

8324. Do you sell the cloth you make in the same way that Mrs. Johnston and Mrs. Williamson have stated?-Yes.

8325. You get some wool from the merchant?-Yes.

8326. And that is set down against your name in an account?- Yes; until the cloth is brought back to the shop.

8327. When the cloth is brought back, the price the wool is deducted?-Yes.

8328. Do you get the balance in money?-Yes always in money, if I like to take it in money.

8329. Do you sometimes take it in goods?-I generally take it in money, because I am not needing goods.

8330. Do you think you would get a bigger price if you took it in goods?-Sometimes it is all the same. This year it is all the same whether you take money or goods.

8331. But some years it is different?-Yes, a little.

8332. Does the merchant tell you generally that he would rather you were to take the price out in goods?-No. The most of the cloth which I have made has been for Mr. Adie, and he gives me the money just soon as the goods.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GIDEON WILLIAMSON, examined.

8333. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.

8334. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

8335. Whom do you fish for generally?-For Inkster. I have fished for him for five years.

8336. Do you settle every year in the spring?-We settle at Hallowmas for the twelve months.

8337. Do you always deal in Mr. Inkster's shop-Yes; I deal oftenest there.

8338. What do you go for elsewhere?-It is very trifling. My dealings are mostly with him.

8339. Is that because you fish for him?-Yes.

8340. Have you an account?-Yes.

8341. Are you obliged to deal on credit?-Yes, sometimes I am, because I must have supplies.

8342. Is that the reason why you go to his shop?-No. I would just as soon deal with him, if I had money, as I would go elsewhere.

8343. Is there any other place hereabout where you could deal?- Yes; but I would just as soon deal with Mr. Inkster as with any other man.

8344. Are you generally behind at the settlement?-Sometimes I am a little.

8345. But sometimes you have a balance to get in cash?- Sometimes; but sometimes the seasons are so bad that I have to go to him for a little supplies.

8346. I suppose that is the reason why you continue to fish for him? If you owe him a little money, you don't like to go and fish for another man?-I don't see what I could get by fishing for another; I pay him the same for his goods, and he pays me the same for my fish as another would do.

8347. Are his goods of as good a quality as in other shops?-Yes.

8348. Have you known any fishermen who have left one employer and gone to fish for another?-No; not that I could point out.

8349. A man generally continues to fish for the same merchant?- Yes; unless it may be a man who changes and goes south.

8350. But if he remains in the same place, does he generally go on fishing for the same merchant for years?-Yes; but I have heard of some of them shifting.

8351. What do they shift for generally?-They may shift to get chances in boats belonging to other curers.

8352. They think they may be better off perhaps by getting into another crew?-Yes.

[Page 203]

8353. Do men sometimes want to shift to another crew or another master, and are prevented from doing so because they are in debt?-I have never tried that.

8354. Do you know whether that is ever the case?-I could not answer that question, because I would not like to say anything I was not sure about.

8355. I suppose you would not think of leaving Mr. Inkster so long as you were in his debt?-Even if I was clear with him, I see no good I could do to myself by leaving him. If I ask him for money, I get it, just the same as out-takes; and I get out-takes from him, just the same as if I was paying down ready money for them.

8356. Do you think you would be any better off if you had not to run such a long account?-I don't know. A poor man generally can have very little until it comes perhaps to the twelvemonth's end; and if it were not that we have sometimes a beast to sell, or something like that, we would have very little to live on throughout the year, because the fishing time is only for about three months in the summer.

8357. You think if you were settled with at shorter periods, you would not have enough to carry you through the year?-Yes.

8358. And you could not settle with the merchant at the end, because the account you have to pay is bigger than what you have to get?-Yes.

8359. Is that sometimes the case?-Yes; because for some years there has been a good deal of bread to get in consequence of lean crops, and that brings the poor fishermen very much down.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN WOOD, examined.

8360. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.

8361. Do you fish for Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

8362. Have you heard what Gideon Williamson said?-Yes.

8363. Is your way of dealing the same as he has described?-Yes; the very same.

8364. Have you anything different to say?-No.

8365. How long have you fished for Mr. Inkster?-Nine years.

8366. Have you ever wished to change?-No.

8367. Do you always get your supplies from him?-Yes.

8368. Are you generally somewhat behind at the end of the year?-Sometimes.

8369. Who did you fish for before?-Mr. Anderson.

8370. Why did you leave him?-Because it was more convenient for us where we lived to fish for Mr. Inkster.

8371. Were you clear with Mr. Anderson when you left him?- Very nearly. I think I was due him £1 or so.

8372. When did you pay that up?-Mr. Inkster paid it up for me. He sent it to Mr. Anderson at the end of the season.

8373. Is that a usual thing to do when a man has shifted?-Yes,

8374. His new employer pays up the whole of his debt?-Yes.

8375. Have you heard of that being done often?-Yes; I have heard of it being done.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, examined.

8376. You are a tenant on the Busta estate?-Yes.

8377. Do you fish any?-No.

8378. I understand you have come here to say something about your line of life and its bearing upon this inquiry: what is it?-My principal means of living is that I get an annuity for keeping some pauper lunatics belonging to several parishes, Delting and Tingwall, and so forth.

8379. What have you got to say about that?-At the time when I commenced to do that, I unfortunately was not clear with the man who now supplies me.

8380. Who is that?-Mr. Thomas Adie.

8381. Had you been a fisherman before?-No; I had been a sawyer for many years.

8382. Had you kept an account at Voe?-Yes.

8383. Were you behind with it?-Yes, a little.

8384. How much?-I could not exactly say, but it was a good deal.

8385. Was it £20?-Perhaps more at times, and sometimes less; but we will say it was that.

8386. What have you to say about it?-I want to speak about the way of supply, and the prices of provisions and other things; I never had my money at command.

8387. How long ago is it since you had that debt?-It is perhaps ten years ago since I commenced with one pauper, and then I got another one. I gave Mr. Adie leave to draw my money with which to settle my accounts, and I got supplies from him.

8388. Where do you draw your money from?-From the parishes that I had got the lunatics from.

8389. Was it because you were due Mr. Adie money when you left that you gave him leave to draw your money?-It was not that altogether. It was quite right, when I was due him an account, that he should be paid for it, but he drew my money from the parishes and supplied me with meal. Perhaps I required ten or twelve sacks a year. I do not get it all from him now. If I had had the use of my money, I might have tried to settle the old account with Mr. Adie and have got my meal where I liked, but I could not do that. With the money I could have got my articles at cost price. I asked my money from Mr. Adie, but he refused to give it me some years ago.

8390. He refused to give it you because you had made an arrangement with him that he was to draw the money?-Yes; not to lay it out, but only to draw it for me.

8391. Was it not the arrangement that he was to draw it for you in order that he might pay his own debt?-We never had any arrangement of that kind, but that was perhaps considered to be the arrangement both by him and me. I would have done that willingly.

8392. Have you squared up your accounts with Mr. Adie at any time?-It is a good while since I was able to do that without injuring me otherwise; but Adie having the use of my money, I got my things from him.

8393. What was the account for which was due to Mr. Adie?-For meal principally, and clothing.

8394. Have you got an account?-Yes; it is in Mr. Adie's book at Voe.

8395. Have you gone over every year at settling time and squared up your account, and seen how much you were due to him, or how much he was due to you, at the end of the year?-Sometimes I did and sometimes not. I knew that I was not able to meet that account, because I did not have the use of my money. If I wanted a dozen sacks of meal, I was always told that there was 2s. a sack as commission for the risk of getting it, and ultimately I wrote to the meal dealers in the south, and I found that there was a difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon 12 sacks, would have been a saving of £6 alone.

8396. Did you give Mr. Adie an order to the inspector to pay the money to him which was due to you?-Yes, I told Mr. Adie to draw it for me, and I signed an order that he was to draw it.

8397. And he has drawn it ever since?-Yes.

8398. Was that for the money which you were to get from Delting parish?-Yes.

8399. Is Mr. Adie a member of the Parochial Board of that parish?-Yes.

8400. Is he the chairman?-I don't know.

8401. Who is the inspector of that parish?-Mr. Louttit.

8402. What do you think can be done for you?-I made my complaint to Mr. Adie lately about the state of these things; but it is not my wish to mention the names of any parties. It is only the practice that I object to.

[Page 204]

8403. What practice do you refer to?-This truck system, and the enormous prices that are charged.

8404. What have you to say about the prices? You have told me that you can save £6 on 12 sacks of meal by dealing south?-Yes, by dealing with Tod Brothers. I wrote to them about it, and they answered me.

8405. Have you got their answer?-No, I have not got it, but I remember it quite well.

8406. How long ago was that?-Just two or three years since.

8407. What was the price of Mr. Adie's meal at that time?-It was 34s. per sack for Indian corn meal.

8408. What was the price of Messrs. Tod Brothers'?-22s.

8409. That was it difference of 12s. per sack?-Yes, but it left me to pay the freight, which would be about 2s. 6d.

8410. Could you have got the meal brought up here for 2s. 6d.?- Yes, or whatever the 'Queen of the Isles' charged.

8411. How many sacks of Indian corn meal would you require in it year?-Perhaps about a dozen sacks.

8412. Do you feed the lunatics on that meal?-No, not the lunatics, but my own family, and sometimes the lunatics too.

8413. Have you made any comparison between the prices charged at Mr. Adie's shop and elsewhere?-Yes. I could buy it at Mr. Robertson's store, at Vidlin, for 27s.; that, upon 12 sacks, would make it difference 4s. between the two places.

8414. Could you not have got your meal from Mr. Robertson's store?-I got some of it, because I kept a party from Lunnasting, and I got part of my supplies there.

8415. Did you get your supplies for that lunatic from Lunnasting?-Occasionally, when I asked them.

8416. Had you an account there?-Yes; I could either get money or anything that I wanted which was due. I could not have done that with Mr. Adie; and therefore I have never been able to get clear of my debt to him.

8417. Did you bring your supplies all the way from Mr. Robertson's store to where you lived?-Yes.

8418. Was that because you kept a lunatic pauper from that parish?-Yes. I took advantage of that, because I could get my goods cheaper there but I could have got money as well, and have gone to any other place with it. If I had had money to get from Mr. Adie, I would have got it from him too with good will, but I never had it to get, and it is that which has kept me deeper and deeper in spite of all I could do.

8419. Could you not have gone to the Parochial Board of Delting, and got your money whenever you pleased, instead of letting Mr. Adie draw it?-I might have got it, but Mr. Adie at one settlement made up a line, and I was compelled to sign it, that he was to draw all the money which I had to get for the lunatic from that parish. I signed it because he wrote me a letter saying I was to come down and pay my account, and then to transfer my custom, which I was not able to do without leaving me destitute.

8420. Have you got that letter?-No.

8421. What did you do with it?-I just destroyed it carelessly.

8422. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say. If I state it incorrectly, it is not done willingly, but it may have been three years since. At the same time I asked Mr. Adie to give me the use of my money, and to keep some of it in order to pay the old account, but he did not do it, and that is the main cause why I am so far behind. I could have had my account with him paid by the profits I could have saved from dealing in the south; I am perfectly sure of that.

8423. But if you wanted your money, why could you not have gone to the Parochial Board and told them to pay you, and not to regard Mr. Adie's orders about it?-What would have become of what I was due to Mr. Adie if I had got the money from the Parochial Board? It was my duty, and I had to pay it to him. At that very time Mr. Adie told his shopman not to supply me unless I came to his shop with cash.

8424. But you wanted to stop going to him because you thought you could get your supplies cheaper elsewhere?-If I had got my supplies in the south, I could have paid him something yearly and lived better. I was making my complaint to Mr. Adie lately, and he promised (and no man was ever deceived in anything that Mr. Adie ever promised, neither was I) that for the future I should get my things at cash price. So far as I am concerned, I have no cause of complaint now; but that has been the cause why I am in debt.

8425. How long ago was that arrangement made about getting your things at cash price?-It may be two or three months ago, and I have got a part of the debt realized since. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Adie's word, or that of any of his sons.

8426. You have one lunatic from Delting, and you have another from Lunnasting?-Yes. I have not got a lunatic from Lunnasting, but a pauper that I keep at a separate house.

8427. But in consequence of having that pauper you get some supplies at Vidlin?-Yes.

8428. Who pays you for the keep of that pauper?-The inspector, Mr. John Anderson, of Lunnasting.

8429. Was there any arrangement made when you got that pauper, that you were to take supplies at Vidlin?-None whatever; it is by my own will that I go there. I can get money, or anything I like; but when I find it convenient, and that the goods are cheaper there than elsewhere, I go and take them.

8430. Are Vidlin and Voe the only places where you get supplies?-Yes; I have dealt with Mr. Adie for thirty years; and I have no cause of complaint against him, except the enormous price which he generally charges for his goods.

8431. Is there any other article which you could name besides meal which is charged at an enormous price?-This place is farther north, and the goods here should be charged a shade dearer, because there is more expense in bringing them.

8432. But can you mention any one article, such as cotton or cloth, which is dearer here than at Lerwick?-You can make a better bargain in Lerwick than in the north.

8433. Have you done that frequently?-Yes.

8434. You only keep three paupers?-Yes.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES ROBERTSON, examined.

8435. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I was a fisherman at one time, but I am not fishing now; I am too old to go to sea.

8436. Has it always been the practice of the fishermen there to deal with the merchants they sell their fish to?-Yes; for forty years back. I have been about thirty years in the fishing.

8437. Have you been at the Faroe fishing?-No; I always went to the ling fishing.

8438. Did you always keep an account with the merchant who employed you?-Yes.

8439. Did you always fish for the same merchant?-Yes, for John Anderson & Co. and for Mr. Leisk, who was there before them.

8440. You always had an account at Hillswick?-Yes.

8441. Did you always go to Hillswick for your supplies?-No; only twice a year. I went for my fishing gear before the season began, and then at the end of the season I went again to settle.

8442. Did you get supplies then?-Yes, if I needed them.

8443. Did you always get the balance in cash when it was due?- Very often it was not due, and I could not expect a thing which was not due.

8444. Why was it not due?-Because of the bad [Page 205] fishings, and of the meal being very dear then; much more so than it is now.

8445. Did you always get more supplies than the value of your fish?-No, I did not do that always.

8446. But generally?-No, not at any time; I always tried to deal so as not to be in debt.

8447. But you said there was seldom anything to get at settling?- There was very seldom any cash that I had to take, because they were lean fishings.

8448. And because you had got supplies up to the value of your fish?-No; but I did not ask for any supplies beyond what I required for the fishing, and perhaps a little meal for my family, which they could not do without.

8449. But the price of that was generally as much you had to get at settlement?-It was.

8450. Was it ever more?-Not very often.

8451. Did you ever think of changing from one employer to another?-No, I did not think of that, because I did not see any good it could do me.

8452. Do you think you would not have got a better price?-No.

8453. And you would not have got better supplies from another merchant?-The only merchant I ever dealt with was Mr. Inkster, because his shop is nearest to me, and I always found his goods as cheap as any other man's.

8454. Would it not have been far more convenient for you to have got all your goods from Mr. Inkster's, instead of carrying them from Hillswick?-Yes; but with regard to lines and hooks, and such things as we require for the fishing, we could not get them from Mr. Inkster, because we were bound to go for them to the man that we fished for.

8455. How long is it since you gave up fishing?-About eight years ago.

8456. You continued to go to the merchant for whom you fished until that time?-Yes.

8457. Did you never think of fishing for Mr. Inkster?-No, because the men I fished with in the boat wanted to go to Mr. Anderson, and I did not want to make discord in the boat's crew.

8458. Have you heard the evidence of the other witnesses from Muckle Roe, Gideon Williamson and John Wood?-Yes.

8459. Is there anything additional that you want to say?-No.

8460. Do you think the fishermen are generally quite free to engage to fish to any employer they like?-They are quite right to engage to any man that would give the best bargain and the best agreement, and that is the thing they should do.

8461. But they would just get as good a bargain from one merchant as from another?-Yes, equally the same because it appears that one fish merchant won't pay more for his fish than another does.

8462. So that the fishermen would have no advantage in changing?-No.

8463. They cannot better themselves by shifting?-They cannot.

8464. Has that been your experience since you have been a fisherman?-It has been my experience all my life, and many besides me have found the same thing.

8465. They would like to better to themselves, but they could not?-That is the very thing.

8466. Do you think they would be better by curing their own fish?-They have no chance of curing their own fish, because those who do so have to find booths for them until the crafts come to take away the cured fish. Besides, poor men like fishermen cannot do that.

8467. They have to buy salt for the curing, and that costs a lot of money?-Yes.

8468. So that they are obliged to give their fish green to the merchant?-Yes.

8469. Have you ever known men to make any attempt to cure fish for themselves?-I have.

8470. Have they not been any better off in that way?-If the fish-curers had been agreeable to them doing that, they would have made a little off it. They would have saved, perhaps, a few pounds on the ton, but they could not find booths in which to put their fish at the season when they require to be housed. They had to pay cellar rent to the parties to whom the booths belonged.

8471. Could they sell their fish at as good a price as the curers could?-No. They could not seek out for purchasers in the south country as the curers can do, and they were obliged to sell their fish to the Shetland merchants and at the price which was current here.

8472. Don't you think the men would be better off if they could get payment for their fish earlier in the season, and could go and deal at any store they liked for their goods?-I don't know that that would be any advantage to them, because they know by experience that their earnings are very small, and they could not afford to take them in that way. They must try to save their earnings for their rents, and for the maintenance of their families.

8473. But if they got their money in their hand, instead of running an account, would they not make a better use of it?-I don't know. Some of them might be inclined to do so and some not.

8474. Might they not buy their goods cheaper if they had the money to pay for them?-Some of them might, but some of them might spend their money very carelessly.

8475. Did you hear what Gilbert Scollay said about getting meal cheaper in the south than it can be got here?-We all know that that is the case.

8476. Have any of you tried to get it in that way?-No.

8477. Why?-From want of knowledge. We don't know where to go in order to find the cheapest market for meal.

8478. But Gilbert Scollay found out where to go and he would have told you?-Gilbert Scollay might have done that, but we never like to deal in the kind of meal which he bought.

8479. You could have got any sort of meal if you had asked it?- Yes, he would have got any sort.

8480. And so would you if you had gone to the right quarter. Don't you think if a lot of you now were to agree to buy meal from a man in the south, and were getting the price of your fish in cash, so that you could pay for the meal in cash, you would be able to make a better thing of it?-There is no mistake about that.

8481. What is to hinder a boat's crew or two from agreeing to bring their own meal from the south?-The fish-curer must supply them with money before they could do that.

8482. Will not the curer advance money to the men if they want it?-It would just be at his own option.

8483. Do you think the fish-curer would not give you the money before the end of the season?-I don't know, I never asked it, and what a man has not asked he cannot speak to at all.

8484. Do you think he would be likely to do it?-The merchants might do it to some, and to some they would not. They could not be expected to do it to a man who was indebted to them; but if a man was clear with them, they might have no objections to advance the money.

8485. I suppose it would not be easy to find a boat's crew where some of the men were not in debt?-I think there are a good few boats' crews of that kind.

8486. Could not a boat's crew, where none of the men were in debt, get their money in that way?-Certainly they could if they wished it.

8487. And they could import their meal from the south if they found it any cheaper?-Perhaps they could.

8488. Do any of your people knit or weave?-They do.

8489. Are they paid for their work in the way which Mrs. Williamson and Mrs. Johnston have described?-Yes.

8490. They are paid mostly in goods?-They can take either goods or money, because they are not in debt to any man.

8491. Do you keep an account with any merchant?-No; I keep the family accounts.

[Page 206]

8492. Do you keep them all in one?-Yes.

8493. Is that a common way at Muckle Roe?-I think it is, and I think it is the best way.

8494. Have you sometimes taken their webs to sell to the merchants?-Yes, I have sometimes done so.

8495. Have you ever got money for a web?-Yes, if I wanted it.

8496. But did you ever get it?-I have. I have got £4 at a time, when the web was worth it.

8497. Was that long ago?-It was this very year.

8498. Did you get it all in money?-Yes.

8499. Was that at Voe?-No, it was at Brae from Mr. Inkster.

8500. Did you ever get as much money before for any web?-No, I don't think so.

8501. Were you paid mostly in goods before?-No, not altogether in goods. If I did not require the goods, I could have it in money, because if I was not in debt to them they were obliged to pay me the money.

8502. Were they always obliged to pay money for webs?-Yes, to men who were clear with them, and who would not take their wool from them.

8503. But a man who was not clear would not get all money?- No, he could not expect it.

8504. The price of his cloth would be put to his account?-Yes.

8505. And he might get a little money if he wanted it?-Yes. I never knew a merchant to refuse a man a little money if he was in need of it.

8506. But the man had to tell the merchant that he was in need of it?-Yes, if he was in need, he had to explain that to him.

8507. If a man was in debt to a merchant, and wanted to get money for his web, could he not take it to another merchant?-Yes; but it would not be very fair to do so. A man who is in debt to another ought always to pay his debt when he can.

8508. But he might pay it at another time and he might be wanting the money for his own immediate needs?-Such cases as that might occur, but not very often.

8509. You think the people round about you don't often do that?- I don't think they do.

Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, examined.

8510. Are you a fisherman and farmer near Brae?-Yes, about a mile or a mile and a half north from this.

8511. Have you a good bit of land?-Yes, just about as big as most of the people have hereabouts-a small allotment.

8512. Have you got a brother in Ollaberry?-I have a brother-in- law there, and a cousin, William Blanch.

8513. Have you been present to-day?-Not all the time. I have been here for about an hour.

8514. Have you heard the description which has been given of how the fishermen are settled with for their accounts?-Yes. I was present at the first meeting which was held at Brae.

8515. Do you settle in the same way as you have heard described?-Yes, much in the same way; but I am a Faroe fisherman, and I have been so for the last twelve years.

8516. Are you a skipper?-Yes.

8517. Who do you ship with?-I have been employed by Mr. Adie's firm for the last five years. Before that I went out from Lerwick. I went for Mr. Sutherland, and then for Mr. George Reid Tait.

8518. You settle every year in the winter?-Yes, or sometimes twice in one year, but not often.

8519. You get supplies, as a rule, from the merchant in whose smack you go to the fishing?-Yes, we get that if we require them.

8520. But, as a rule, do you get your supplies from that merchant?-As a rule we do, but there are exceptions. For my own part, I have never been under the necessity of taking out supplies unless I chose; but, generally speaking, I have taken them out, especially stores required for our own use in the vessel.

8521. And when anything is required for the man's family at home during the season, is it generally got from the same merchant?-It may be. In most cases,, I think, that would be the case; but, for my own part, was not bound to do that, because at the time of settlement I had always something to take, and I could deal where I chose.

8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for men to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put my money into his shop, and I have done so, although I have never been obligated to do it.

8523. Are some of the men obligated to do that?-I think they are obligated, for this reason, that they could scarcely help themselves. Perhaps they had not the money to purchase their goods elsewhere, and they were bound for that reason from a selfish motive.

8524. You think they could not get credit elsewhere?-Yes. Some of them I know could not get it elsewhere. Perhaps some of them could.

8525. But the merchant who employs men at the Faroe fishing is generally ready to give credit to a man who is in these circumstances, and who does not have money?-Of course he does. He understands he has that to do. They make advances, perhaps before, but as soon as the men engage to go to the fishing. It may be about this time, or it may be a month previous to this, when they make the engagement to go.

8526. And they made an advance then either in cash or in out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They may give 8s. or 10s. in cash, but unless they know the man is to be depended upon I don't think they will give much more. They may give man until he has made some earning by his fishing; but unless it is a case where they know it can be paid back again by the man otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of his stock for instance, he may have some other means. For my own part, of course, I was always so far able to pay my account, and I never had need to ask for money. I can only speak to that from personal experience; but I have known men who sailed with me for eight or nine years, and I know they have got a little money, perhaps 10s. or £1, at a time when they required it.

8527. Although they were bound?-I did not know about their being bound. I would not say much about that. I daresay some of them would be bound, and some of them were not.

8528. Have you ever known men being bound when, they engaged to a merchant?-No. I may have heard about it, but I could not show it by proof.

8529. Have you heard of men who are obligated, as you said, to engage with it particular merchant for the fishing because they were in his debt?-No; I could not say definitely as to that.

8530. Have you had an idea or it notion that a man might have engaged for that reason?-Yes; I have had that idea, and I have been told so by men themselves, but these men are not here, and I could not say that it was actually the case. For my own part, I have never been in these circumstances.

8531. Have you ever considered whether you would be better under any other arrangement than making settlement at the end of the year for the Faroe fishing?-I have considered that matter, and I have often thought that we might have been better than we are under the present state of matters. That may have been partly our own blame, in consequence of the want of information among the fishermen; but I have often thought, and I think so still, that we don't have that fair play which we ought to have. I think the present system is almost, if not altogether, a one-sided arrangement for the merchant. That is my opinion with regard to the Faroe fishing, and the ling fishers say the [Page 207] same. We don't know what we are to get until the end of the season. We go and toil away and catch fish if we can, but we don't know what we are to get for them until the time of settlement. There is an arrangement made between the fish-curers or merchants, and by that time they have made up their minds, and have fixed upon certain price, while we under our agreement have just to take what they please to give us. Our understanding is that the crew get one-half of the nett, and the fish-merchant or curer gets the other half for his vessel. Of course, the salt and the expenses of curing deducted, and the master's and mate's extra, and the score money.

8532. There are some deductions before you come to the nett?- Yes; we don't get one half of the gross; we only get one-half of the nett. There is allowance for salt and curing, which is generally £2, 10s., and I think it could be done cheaper, but that may be our own blame. Then there is the master's extra and the mate's extra, which is a fee of so much per ton to each, according as the agreement is made.

8533. What other deduction is there?-There is score-money, and there may be the expense of bringing the fish to market.

8534. Is that a deduction, or does it not come off the merchant's half of the nett?-I don't know exactly how that is done. We never see the account sales of the fish, although we ought to see them, but that may be our own blame too.

8535. You don't know whether the merchant gets commission of 5 per cent?-I have been told so by one merchant that I was employed by, Mr. Grierson. I never was told that by any other merchant for whom I was employed, but Mr. Grierson told me that was actually so in his case.

8536. You are a skipper, and you actually don't know how the deductions are made which come off before the nett produce is halved?-Of course I have asked about these things, and I have been told that there were no other deductions taken off beyond what have mentioned.

8537. Do you have nothing to do with the making of these deductions yourself?-No.

8538. You have nothing to do with the weighing of the fish, nor with the selling of them?-No; nor with making a market for them.

8539. But you think you might be more fairly dealt with than you are?-I think we might. I don't know whether that is altogether the merchant's blame, but think we could have a fairer understanding, for two reasons: In the first place, we ought to have an understanding when we start or engage that we are to have a certain fixed price for our fish, the same as the Englishmen have. They know what they are to get before their fish are caught.

8540. Where do these Englishmen fish?-They are in smacks that come from London and Grimsby and Hull and Berwick, and they fish for curers in Shetland, and land their fish here.

8541. Have these men all an agreement for a fixed price?-So far as I understand, they have. At least I have been told so by themselves.

8542. These men have a fixed agreement with the curers here to whom they sell?-Yes. Of course, their men are not paid in the same way as we are. The men on board these vessels, except the masters, are paid by weekly wages.

8543. And the master makes a bargain with the merchant here about the fish?-I rather think it is the owner who makes the bargain.

8544. Do you know the nature of the bargain they make?-I cannot say that I know definitely. I know the merchant here agrees to pay them a fixed price when the fish are landed in a dry state. They are salted on board the vessels, and they get £10, £11, or £12 a ton for salted fish when landed. They know they are to get that before the fish are caught, and they cannot expect anything more. Now; I say we ought to have something like that, and then we would know what we were actually working for. It might be that in that way we would get less than we do present, but we would have a fair understanding. If we lost in one year, we might gain in another.

8545. Do you think the men in Shetland, generally speaking, would be inclined to consent to a bargain of that sort? Would they not grumble very much if the price rose considerably before the end of the season?-It would only be parties who were dull of apprehension that would be likely to grumble. It would not be the intelligent men. For my part, and so far as my experience goes, I don't think a man of intelligence and experience would have a right to grumble in that case and I don't think he would do so. There are a great many I have spoken to, and reasoned the matter with, who, I don't think, would grumble.

8546. Do you think the fishermen, under such a system, would have the same advantage at the beginning of the season in making a bargain as the masters would have? Would the masters not be likely to know better what the market price was likely to be towards the end of the season, and thus be able to make a calculation as to the price more in their own favour?-The merchants ought, from their position, to have more information as to the probable state of the market, and, a rule, they do have more information; but I believe there are not a few masters of Faroe fishing vessels who could make as good a market, or nearly as good a market, as the curers could.

8547. You think they have all the information necessary to guide them in making a good bargain in the beginning of the season, or just as much as the curers have?-Yes. A curer would just be as likely to make a mistake in his arrangements as I would be. The market is so fluctuating that it is possible a curer may go and make a loss. He might possibly make an arrangement with another merchant to sell his fish at a certain fixed price, and there is a possibility of the fish rising after that, and of course I would stand the same chance.

8548. Do you say that in the English vessels the fish is salted before it is put on shore?-Yes.

8549. Is that the case in your smacks also?-Yes; we are always bound to do that. We could not keep the fish otherwise. When fishing on the coast of Faroe or Iceland, or elsewhere, we cannot help ourselves; we must salt them in order to save them.

8550. Is the salt put on board the vessel, and supplied by the fish-curer at starting?-Yes.

8551. You said you thought 50s. a ton was rather too high a charge for salting and curing: is that your opinion?-I am inclined to think so. I know the price of salt as well as the curers do. I have been in the habit of buying salt at Liverpool more than two or three times, and I know what I have paid for it, buying it with ready money. The last cargo of salt which I brought here cost 7s. per ton, when ready to leave Liverpool, and the freight here would be 10s. Then there would be 1s. per ton for landing, at least. Then there would be 2s. for wastage and they might take off 1s. or 2s. more for cellar rent. That would be 22s.

8552. Would that be the total cost of the salt delivered in Shetland?-It might vary; but that is what I paid for it the last time I bought a cargo.

8553. Do you think 22s. is a liberal calculation for it?-I think so. Then the people have to be paid for curing, that is, washing and drying the fish, and I think they generally pay at least 12s. per ton, or in some cases more, for that. I have never cured fish myself, but I have been told by curers that that is about the expense.

8554. That would be 12s. for the workpeople employed at the curing; but you would also require some allowance for implements and sheds and booths?-No doubt an allowance would require to be made for that too. In some cases a man may be curing fish where he has to provide a booth for himself, and he has to get covering from the fish-curer or merchant. That, however, would only be a trifle.,

8555. Would 3s. a ton be too much for that?-As rule, I think it would not.

8556. Would it be too little?-I think it would not be too little; I think it would fully meet it.

[Page 208]

8557. Would there be any other expense for the curing of the fish?-Not so far as the curing is concerned.

8558. You say the charge for curing is 50s.?-Yes. I have paid my share of it at that rate, and I have sometimes paid for it at the rate of 52s. 6d., but it has been less than 50s. in my experience. At one time it was 45s., but of late years it has never been less than 50s.

8559. The calculation which you have made comes so that you think the fish-curer makes a profit of 13s. per ton upon the curing: is that your opinion?-My opinion is just exactly as I have stated it. It is possible I may be wrong in some of the items, because in some cases the merchant may have to give the curer more. It may be a late season, or a wet season, and in order to get the fish dried and ready for market it is possible they might encourage the curer, by giving him 1s. or 2s. more.

8560. The expense might be more than 37s. a ton in some cases?-It might be.

8561. But you think that 37s. a ton is a fair enough calculation, so far as you can make it, for the usual expenses of salting and curing?-I think so.

8562. Do you think fishermen could cure for themselves upon a small scale?-It might not be easy to get a crew together which could do that, but I think it could be done. I do not see why the master of a Faroe fishing vessel could not get a man to cure his fish as well as another man. There are often beaches that he could get the use of for the time being, and I think it is quite possible they could get their fish cured, but there may be some difficulty about it. It might be that every person would not be able to do it.

8563. You do not know whether that has been tried?-I do not. For my own part, I never attempted it.

8564. Do you think the system of running accounts among the Faroe fishermen you have met with has led them to incur too large amounts of debt?-I am inclined to think so.

8565. Is that one of your reasons for wishing to have a price fixed at the beginning of the year?-That would be one of the special reasons, but it is not the whole reason. I have another reason for that, which is, that as the system exists now, if the merchant makes a good bargain or a good market for his fish, and the man he sells them to does not fail before the price is payable, the merchant never loses, because he never pays the price to us before then which he can afford to pay. He is always secure; but if he had a fixed price to pay for the fish; he might lose as quick as I would. That is my main reason for objecting to this system. I would like to have the thing altered so that there might be something like fair play, and that if I lose, I lose, and that if I gain, I gain. I am not saying that the merchant is not paying me a fair price now. He may be paying me all he can afford to pay, but I don't know that.

8566. But by the system you propose, the price might be lower than is sufficient for your labour?-I would have to take my chance of that. In my experience I have had to contend with three all but total failures at the fishing, and of course our labour and time went for almost nothing. But that was not the owner's blame; we could not help it, and no more could he.

8567. Is there any other plan for the payment of fish that has occurred to you? How would it do, for instance, if a certain part of the price per cwt. were arranged to be paid on delivery of the green fish, and that the rest, whatever it might be, should be paid at settlement according to the current price?-I could scarcely speak with regard to green fish, because my experience has been in salted fish, and I would only like to speak about that with which I have been myself more immediately connected. But speaking with regard to salted fish only, what you have suggested would be a far better way, because I would then have a chance of seeing my fish weighed out. I don't think the merchant has cheated me out of a ton or half a ton of fish, but I have not had the chance of seeing my fish weighed when I was there. Each vessel's catch is kept and cured separately; but when we come to deliver the fish, if we had a chance of seeing it weighed then, and got a certain figure for it, that would be exactly the way in which these Englishmen deal. They see their fish weighed, and they know what they are getting for each ton or each cwt. of it, and they have nothing more to expect. But we don't do that; we get the dried fish price.

8568. Do you know how much green fish makes a cwt. of dry?-I know that about 21/4 cwt. is the general rate allowed in the ling fishing for green fish, but if it is good fish it will not require so much as that I have helped to cure myself, but it may be as much as that with bad fish. As to salted fish, I could not say definitely what is the proportion.

8569. There is no such calculation required in the Faroe fishing?- No; it does not come so immediately under my notice. I never saw my fish weighed dry; I have seen them occasionally weighed wet, but not often.

8570. Are they occasionally weighed wet in the Faroe fishing?- Sometimes, not often. It is done perhaps on shore or on board, as it happens. Suppose we land them at a different station from what we intended, they are counted out and weighed when sold, and then the owner or fish-curer will know what they can turn out when dry. That is the reason why they are weighed.

8571. Then there must be a calculation made in that case?-There is, but I do not know exactly what it is.

8572. To go back to your calculation about the expense of curing fish, can you tell me how much salt is required to cure a ton of fish?-We generally reckon upon a ton of salt to a ton of dry fish. If the salt is well cared for it will do a little more but we generally reckon upon that as an average.

8573. Is the salt which the fish get all put on them before they are put on shore?-Yes; it is all put on. There is none put on afterwards, except it may be in the case of a few fish which are likely to give way, or when we get fish and have not enough salt, but that is a case of emergency and an exception-not the rule. As a rule, we cure our fish and put all the salt on them they require.

8574. Have you any knowledge of the system of payment in the ling fishing?-Only from what I have heard about it. I have been at it only once when I was a lad; and I cannot say much about it from experience.

8575. Do you think your neighbours are generally quite at liberty to deal with any merchant they please in the ling fishing?-I believe they are at perfect liberty so far as any man is concerned who could stand in a position like me, and be able to pay his way at any time; but I think a man who could not pay his way, and who was always in debt, would not be at liberty to go where he chose. I am not sure that even he would not be at liberty to use his own judgment, and deal where he liked; but I don't know that he would be looked well upon if he went to another. That is to say, if he was in debt £10 or £20 to a merchant, I don't think the merchant would look well upon it if the man went to another merchant to whom he owed nothing, and fished for him. At least that is what they have told me, and what I have known; but, of course, a man who can pay his way, and who is not bound to fish for a certain individual, can do as he likes. There are fishermen in other parts of the country who are bound to fish for their landowner or their factor, but that does not exist here.

8576. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I don't think there is anything about any matter with which I am immediately connected. We used to make a little Shetland cloth, but I could only corroborate the evidence that has been already given about that. I have never been under the necessity of selling it to a particular party, and I have got the money for it when I asked it. I don't know that the same price is always given in money as when it is taken in goods; but if I needed money, and asked for it, I always got it.

[Page 209]

8577. Then you have no objection to the practice which exists with regard to the hosiery trade?-No; I would not say anything about that.

8578. Have you any objection to what is done in the cloth trade?- It is the cloth trade I mean. Of course the knitting is a thing that I am not immediately connected with; there is not much done in that way with me. I know, however, that in some cases, although perhaps not in all, where women have been knitting hosiery, and they have got a certain price for an article, yet by buying tea or groceries, which are reckoned as money articles, they would have to pay more for them. They would have to pay 2d. or 11/2d. more upon a 1/4 lb. of tea, because it was being paid for by hosiery; but I think I would have preferred a different way of dealing with them. I think, if I had been in a position like that, I would have given them less for their hosiery, and sold the articles to them at a fixed price. It would just have come to the very same thing with the merchants.

8579. You think that would have been a wiser course for the merchants to take?-Yes. I remember on one occasion when I brought two or three articles of hosiery to a merchant, I got a certain sum put upon them; but when I got a little tea from him, he said he had to make the tea 2d. more per quarter, because it was paid for in hosiery. I said to him I would not deal in that way if I were him, but that I would give a little less for the hosiery, and I would charge a fixed price for my tea, or whatever other articles I was selling; but he said, 'We must all do that, because if I were to say that I would not give a woman so much for her hosiery, she would go to another merchant with it, and they would give her a higher price, and lay it on their goods;' which I have no doubt they do.

8580. Therefore you did not convince the hosiery merchant?-I convinced him so far, that I got my price. I would not pay the price he charged, and would have taken my article of hosiery back rather than pay it.

8581. Did that take place some years ago?-Yes; it is not less than six years ago.

Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS ROBERTSON, examined.

8582. Have you been a fisherman here all your life?-Not all my life; but I have been for a number of years.

8583. You hold a bit of ground at Weathersta?-Yes.

8584. Who do you fish for?-For Mr Adie, Voe.

8585. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes.

8586. Do you generally get some of your balance in cash?-Yes. If I have a balance to get I get it, but I always got money when I asked it, whether I had it to get or not.

8587. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the year?-Yes; whenever I ask it.

8588. Did you get that ten years ago if you asked for it?-I did.

8589. Was that the practice then?-Yes; but I never asked for money unless I required it.

8590. You wanted goods oftener?-Yes.

8591. How far is it from Voe to your place?-About three miles.

8592. Is Mr. Adie's the nearest shop to you?-No. Brae is nearer than Voe.

8593. But you dealt at Voe, because you were fishing for Mr. Adie?-I dealt some at Brae too; but mostly at Voe.

8594. Was that because you had an account there?-Yes.

8595. And it was more convenient for you sometimes to deal upon credit?-Yes.

8596. I suppose you would get a larger advance in goods at that shop than you would have got if you were to ask money?-I don't know; I only asked for goods when I was needing them.

8597. But if you had asked money with which to go and buy your goods elsewhere, would you have got it?-I cannot say, for I never asked it.

8598. Have you heard the evidence of Robertson and Wood, and the other fishermen who have been examined to-day?-Yes.

8599. Have you anything different to say from what they said about the system of dealing among the fishermen here?-No.

8600. Have you known fishermen changing from one employment to another?-I have.

8601. Have you done that yourself?-No.

8602. You have always fished for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

8603. What is the general reason for the men shifting?-I don't know. I suppose it is because they think they will be better.

8604. How are they better, when the same price is always paid at the end of the year by all the curers?-I cannot see where they can be better by shifting from one man to another; I never felt that I would be any better to do so.

8605. I understand all the merchants hereabout pay the same current price for fish?-Yes. Mr. Adie proposed a stated agreement to me for fishing herring. The herrings in Shetland then were 7s. a cran, and he agreed that he would give us 8s. a cran; but we have only got 8s. a cran for two years. The price varies with the agreement in each year; sometimes we get 13s. a cran, sometimes 10s., and sometimes 12s.-just up and down.

8606. Do you generally go to the herring fishing every year?-Yes.

8607. At what season of the year do you go?-August and September; after we are done with the ling fishing.

8608. And the bargain for the herring fishing is that you are to get so much a cran?-Yes; that was the agreement we had with Mr. Adie when we took our nets.

8609. Do you hire nets from him for that fishing?-No, we buy them, and they are put into our accounts.

8610. Have you paid off the price of these nets now?-Yes.

8611. How long did it take you to pay them?-I could not say exactly, but I think it took us between 8 and 9 years to pay for them all, because we had lean fishings.

8612. You mean that the herring fishing was poor?-Yes.

8613. Did you get them paid off at last?-Yes.

8614. Is the price for the herrings paid down whenever you deliver them?-No.

8615. Do you keep an account for the herring fishing separate from the account for the ling fishing?-Yes.

8616. Do you get goods to the other side of that account too?-No; they are all in the same account.

8617. Your goods are kept in an account at Voe?-Yes.

8618. And the price of the herrings is entered to your credit when you settle?-Yes.

8619. Do you keep a pass-book?-Yes.

8620. Have you got it now?-No; I don't have it, because we think there is no use keeping it after the end of the season. Once we find the pass-book to be correct, we think it is of no farther use, and when I brought it home I suppose the bairns tore it up.

8621. When you square up your account at the end of the year, do you go and look at all the items in Mr. Adie's book?-Yes.

8622. Are they read over to you?-Yes; I compare them with the items in my book, and I see that they are all correct.

8623. Is it mostly goods or cash that you get in the course of the year?-It is goods for the most part but I get a good part of cash too.

[Page 210]

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN RATTER, examined.

8624. You are a fisherman at Weathersta?-Yes.

8625. Do you fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

8626. Have you heard what Thomas Robertson has said?-Yes.

8627. Does it all apply to your case as well as his?-Exactly.

8628. How long have you fished for Mr. Adie?-Six years.

8629. Where did you fish before?-I did not fish for any one before, except going for a fee to the ling fishing.

8630. Do you go to the herring fishing also?-Yes.

8631. And you are paid for it in the same way as Robertson?- Yes.

8632. You get a fixed price for the herring?-Yes.

8633. Have you anything to add to what he has said?-No.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.

8634. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I forgot that I had my pass-book with Mr. Adie for this year with me. It shows the goods I am getting now. [Produces book.]

8635. I thought you were getting your goods at cash price now?- Yes; I had a promise of them at cash price.

8636. I see there is tea, 5d.?-That is for 2 oz. of tea.

8637. Then you are not getting them for cash price yet?-I have no doubt that when I settle with Mr. Adie he will square that up. I have his promise for it, and I have no doubt that he will do it. I wish further to say, that this truck system or compulsory barter is a great cause of pauperism, as it makes the poor careless and the rich fearless; because, should the head of the family die, the creditor will probably take the effects left, and consequently leave the widow and fatherless children, if any, on the parish. Another thing is, that when the merchants have it in their power to price both their goods and mine, they clearly see that I must sell, and off it must go at whatever they say is the value, and I must take their goods at the value they are pleased to put upon them, and I-if I am in debt-dare not grumble.

8638. What goods have you had to sell upon which they have put their own price?-For one thing, I have been a carrier of hosiery to different places.

8639. Who have you carried hosiery for?-Perhaps for my wife or others, and the value of the stockings was made to be 10d., or 8d., or 7d. If I took tea, and the value of the stockings was 10d., I could only get 9d. worth. If I took cotton goods I would get the full value, but not if I took tea. Then, if under this system a man gets into debt, it is more in appearance than in reality; and should that man ask money from the apparent creditor, the old account will be shaken at him as a scarecrow, and he is generally told to pay his credit and transfer his custom, and that consequently nails him to the old plan. As to the difference in the price of meal, what deceived me in that line was, that I and others were often told that they only charged 2s. per sack as a commission, which would have been £10 per 100 sacks; but at last, when I wrote to some of the meal dealers in the south, I found it was more like £50 per 100 sacks-that is 10s. per sack instead of 2s.

Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE, examined.

8640. You are a son of Mr. T.M. Adie, who has been already examined?-I am. I am a partner of the business carried on at Voe, although it is carried on in my father's name. I have been a partner for seven or eight years.

8641. Are you aware of any arrangement existing between Messrs. Adie, Anderson, and Inkster, to this effect, that when a fisherman who is in debt to one of these curers goes to another, the new employer undertakes the debt incurred to the former employer?- There was an arrangement of that sort entered into.

8642. Has it been acted upon to a certain extent?-Yes; I think it has been pretty well carried out.

8643. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes; I think the original document is in our possession. I will send it to you.* A principal object or inducement for having that document drawn up was, that a great many of our fishermen were in the habit of settling at the end of the season, and getting advances for rent, or of goods, on the understanding that they were to fish, or go in a boat of ours to the fishing, in the following season; and then they left and went to Mr. Anderson, and took similar advances from him.

8644. Did you find that a man who got into arrears in your books, and to whom you were obliged to refuse supplies on account of his debt being too large, was apt to go to another merchant and engage with him for the following season?-In some cases perhaps they did so, but not as a rule.

8645. But did you not find that when a man's debt got so large that you had to refuse him supplies, and he was not likely to pay it, he went away to another merchant instead of continuing to fish for you?-Sometimes; but most of the men, when they are in debt in that way, save as much as possible, and keep under expenses, in order to assist in getting the debt cleared off.

8646. You see when a man is trying to keep down expenses, and you help him as far as possible?-Yes.

8647. Do you remember of one William Inkster leaving you in that way a good many years ago?-Yes.

8648. And Mr. Anderson paid the whole of his debt to you under that agreement?-Yes; Mr. Anderson paid his debt.

8649. Have other cases occurred of a similar kind?-Yes; I think we have paid Mr. Anderson some accounts for some of his men, and he has paid us.

8650. Is it the full debt that is paid in these cases, or only a proportion of it, or do you make a compromise?-Sometimes we make a compromise.

8651. Was there any understanding when you took the lease of your premises at Voe, that no shop should be permitted on the Busta estate near you?-I cannot speak positively on that matter. I don't know the terms of the lease exactly. I think there was a stipulation in the last lease, with regard to the pasture ground, that no business should be carried on upon it.

8652. Do you mean no fish-curing business?-No shop. There was a talk at one time of having a [Page 211] public-house put up there; and I think it was with reference to that that the stipulation was put in. That was in the lease of the park or enclosed property.

8653. Has your firm a grocer's licence?-Yes.

8654. I understand there is no public-house in the neighbourhood?-No; we have a spirit licence.

8655. Have you a public-house licence as well?-Yes.

8656. That business is carried on, of course, in different premises from your other business?-No; they are carried on in the same premises.

8657. Is there not a different door to the place where you sell the spirits?-No; we are quite at liberty to sell spirits there, but not to consume them on the premises.

8658. Then you have no licence at all to consume on the premises?-No.

8659. And the licence you have is not a public house licence?- No.

8660. You have been present to-day and heard the evidence: is there any observation you wish to make upon it?-I don't know that there is. I think most of the things which have been referred to were explained by my father. There is something, however, with reference to the curing of the fish which I may refer to. That matter has scarcely been gone into as it should have been. For instance, it has been stated that a ton of salt will cure a ton of fish in one of the Faroe vessels, but it never does so. At one time, I believe, it would have cured a ton of fish, but there is a fearful extravagance and waste of salt going on in these vessels now. There are tons of salt which are wasted among ballast, and in other ways, so that we never turn out a ton of dry fish for a ton of salt.

8661. You heard the calculation made by Blanch on that subject?-Yes. Salt costs us a great deal more than he mentioned; we don't have salt in our cellars under 27s. or 27s. 6d., and there is the cost of shipping again into the vessels and wastage.

8662. He allowed 2s. a ton for waste?-Yes, in landing, but not in shipping; 2s. a ton will not cover the waste both in landing and shipping; and then the cost of labour is very much higher than it used to be.

8663. Is 12s. a ton an insufficient allowance for labour?-It is.

8664. Have you made a calculation of that at any time for the purposes of your business?-We can scarcely get an accurate calculation made, but I am certain it is more than he stated. There are different parcels of fish landed from different vessels to be cured, and we cannot keep an accurate account of the time expended on each parcel.

8665. But take a single ton of fish: is 12s. more than the ordinary cost of curing it?-No; it is considerably less than the cost. I am perfectly certain of that.

8666. Is 50s. per ton, the ordinary deduction charged off fishermen for the Faroe fishing, very much above the actual cost?-I don't think it is 6d. over the actual cost.

8667. Does that include anything for superintendence?-Of course, it includes the allowance for our utensils, and the cost of beaches and superintendence. Then Blanch said there was a deduction of 5 per cent, but it is not 5 per cent. that is deducted. There is generally £1 per ton deducted for expenses in realizing the fish and storage, and so on.

8668. Is that £1 per ton on the cured fish?-Yes; that is known all over the country to be the ordinary rate of charge.

8669. That comes to nearly 5 per cent.?-Yes; sometimes it is a little more than 5 per cent, and sometimes it is not so much.

8670. Are these all the deductions that are made before the division of the proceeds of the cured fish?-Yes; there is the curing, and the master and the mate's extra, and the score-money.

8671. What is score-money?-The men are paid so much for each score of fish they individually draw.

8672. That is to say, each man counts the fish which he gets with his own lines?-Yes, and he gets 6d. a score for them.

8673. That is a sort of premium upon industry?-Yes; that is deducted from the gross, and paid to the individual fisherman.

8674. Is there any other deduction in favour of either the merchant or the men?-I am not aware of any. There are some payments for bait which are deducted too. That is charged against the vessel's fishing, and deducted from the gross.

8675. Is there any expense for lines, or do the men furnish their own lines?-The men furnish their lines in the Faroe fishing.

8676. Is the price of these lines charged against the fishing, or against the men individually?-Against the men individually. Each man gets his own lines, and they are charged in his individual account. There is a stock of lines generally kept by the master on board the vessel, and they are supplied by him to the men on board.

8677. These stores on board the vessel go to the individual account of the men?-Yes, stores of all kinds. We supply them with 8 lbs. of bread per man per week, and they find their own small stores.

8678. These they generally purchase in your shop?-Yes.

8679. And they are put to their account?-Yes.

* The agreement referred to was afterwards sent in, and was in the following terms:-'We, Gideon Anderson, of Ollaberry; John Anderson, Hillswick; James Inkster, Brae; and Thomas M. Adie, Voe; considering the very disastrous consequences likely to ensue to ourselves, and ultimately to our fishermen, from the reckless system of giving them advances which has been for some time practised, and knowing that such system is farther followed from the fact that if any of us refused their demands, however absurd, they turned to another, who gave them what they wanted; we have resolved to do away with such in future, so that each of us may be able to exercise his own judgment as to the propriety of what advances he may make to his fishermen;' and the parties agreed and bound themselves, so long as they continued as fishcurers in the same localities, 'not to tamper with or engage each other's fishermen, or allow our boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make advances of rents to them on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under any circumstances whatever, unless they produce a certificate from any of us whom they last fished for, to the effect that he is clear of debt and all other obligations existing therefrom, or in connection with the fishing,' under a penalty of £5, to be paid to the poor of the parish.

In a letter with reference to this agreement Mr. T. M. Adie says:- 'The only way in which it has ever had to be acted on is, that occasionally some man would like to be in a boat more convenient for him, when any of us whom he had fished for gave him a note stating that he was under no obligation, or if he was due a balance, the curer he went to paid it for him. On some occasions we had found that a worthless fellow would get what he actually needed advanced to him, and then, if any fancied want was not supplied, he would leave the boat, and the rest of the crew lost their fishing for want of a man in his stead, and it tended to keep down advances in goods so that men had, more money to get.'

Brae, January 13, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.

8680. Where do you live?-In North Delting.

8681. Are you a fisherman?-I am.

8682. Who do you fish for?-Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.

8683. How far do you live from Mossbank?-About a mile.

8684. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Five years.

8685. Do you keep an account at the Mossbank shop?-Yes.

8686. Do you make a settlement at the end of the year?-Yes.

8687. Do you get any money at settlement?-Yes, I get my rent.

8688. Who do you pay your rent to?-Mr. John Robertson. I live on the Lunna estate; Sheriff Bell is the proprietor.

8689. Do you get any more money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., besides your rent?-No more money, as I don't have it to get.

8690. Is that because you are in debt?-Yes.

8691. How far are you behind?-I was behind £3 at the last settlement, but I have been as much behind as £13.

8692. Are you always behind in your accounts?-Yes.

8693. And you always go to fish for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., in the hope of paying them off?-Yes.

8694. Are you at liberty to fish for any other merchant?-No.

8695. Why?-Because I am in debt, and I cannot pay my debt, therefore I am obliged to fish for Mr. Pole.

8696. If you were to go to fish for another merchant and get paid by him in money, could you not pay off your debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I might, but I don't see what good that would do. I get the same price for my fish from Mr. Pole as I would get from any other body.

8697. But don't you think you run up a bigger account when you are dealing with Pole, Hoseason, & Co., than you would do if you were getting your cash in hand?-Yes; if I had cash to purchase my meal, which is the principal thing I require, I would get it cheaper elsewhere.

8698. What is the price of meal at Mossbank just now?-I cannot say rightly.

[Page 212]

8699. When did you know last? Have you made your settlement this year?-Yes.

8700. Don't you know what you were charged for meal then?- No.

8701. Do you ask the price of your meal as you buy it?- Sometimes; but we must take it, whatever it is, because we have no money to purchase it with elsewhere.

8702. Whose fault is that?-I don't know.

8703. Is it the merchant's fault?-I cannot say that is.

8704. Do you think Messrs. Pole Hoseason, & Co. charge too high for their goods?-Yes; if we had money we could get them cheaper in Lerwick.

8705. But I suppose you would have money if you could save as much as would keep you for one year?-Yes.

8706. If you could manage that, you would not run into the merchant's debt at all, but you would have all your cash to get at settlement?-Yes, if we had as much as would once clear us off.

8707. Can you not manage to do that?-No. I have a small family, and there is a great quantity of bread to buy, and clothes and everything. I have nothing but what I can earn by the fishing.

8708. What kind of bread do you buy?-Oatmeal and flour.

8709. Are there many men who are in debt at Mossbank in the same way as you?-I believe there are a few, but I cannot say.

8710. Do you want to go to fish for any other merchant?-No; I don't see any good that that would do to me.

8711. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.

8712. Was there anything else you wanted to say when you came here?-No.

Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, recalled.

8713. Do you wish to add anything to your former evidence?- About the cost of fish-curing, I said I was not speaking exactly from my own experience with regard to the sum paid, but I know that we have never used more than a ton of salt to a ton of fish on the average. I wish also to say that I have been told more than once by parties who have cured fish for Mr. Adie and others, that they only paid 12s. per ton of fish for the labour of curing. I also say that I have paid 1s. for landing salt at Lerwick, and nothing more, and I allow 2s. for wastage. These are things which Mr. William Adie thought I had no doubt exaggerated, but I am conscious of the fact that I told nothing but the truth.

8714. Was 12s. per ton a price which was paid under contract?- Yes.

8715. Who are the parties who told you about that?-Arthur Harrison was the last one I spoke to. I landed fish to be cured by him, and he told me so. There was another man who told me the same thing about five years ago, John Henry, Sandsting, in Walls. With regard to the price paid for lines, I wish also to say that we have to furnish our own lines in the Faroe fishing. You were asking me if I thought there was a possibility of our bettering ourselves. I thought there was, and that was one of the ways in which I thought we might do so. I have always thought that the owner, when he provided a vessel, ought also to provide the material for the catching of the fish; but instead of that we have to provide our own lines, and supply other lines if we happen to lose them, at a very dear price. We 21/2 lines for each man, and we pay 2s. 6d. for what I know the merchants buy at 2s. or 1s. 6d.

8716. Could you not buy your lines at another shop if you chose?-Yes; we could do that.

8717. Is it part of the arrangement that you are to take these lines from the owner of the vessel?-I don't know that it is part of the arrangement, but I don't think they would like it very well if we went to another; still I don't know that we would be prevented.

8718. Do not the men sometimes hire the lines?-No; never in my experience in the Faroe fishing.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN NICHOLSON, examined.

8719. Where do you come from?-North Delting.

8720. Who do you fish for?-Messrs Pole, Hoseason, & Co.

8721. Have you heard the evidence of Charles Nicholson?-Yes; and I would like to say about the price of our fish, that I don't think it is very right that the men should have to go to the fishing at the beginning of the season, and don't know what they are to get until they come to settle.

8722. Do you think you ought to have your price fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.

8723. Have you ever asked for that?-No; we have never asked for it.

8724. Why?-Because some of the crew are for it and others are against it, and we could not get the thing rightly settled up amongst ourselves.

8725. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co?-I have fished there for about fourteen years, both before and after Mr. Pole came to Mossbank.

8726. Where do you buy your goods?-From Mr. Pole.

8727. Anywhere else?-No.

8728. Do you never go to any other shop in the neighbourhood?- Not very often.

8729. Why is that?-Because sometimes I don't have ready money to go with.

8730. If you had ready money would you go anywhere else?-Yes.

8731. Why?-Because I could get my goods cheaper and better.

8732. Are you not satisfied with the quality of the goods at the Mossbank shop?-No. There are some of the articles there which are inferior to other people's, and dearer too.

8733. What articles are inferior?-Tea and sugar and meal.

8734. Where could you get them better?-In Lerwick.

8735. That is a long way to go for them?-Yes; but a man must take some trouble upon himself when he gets them cheaper and better.

8736. What are you paying at Mossbank store for these things just now?-Tea is 3s. per lb., sugar is 5d., and meal is 50s.

8737. When did you buy any of these three articles in Lerwick?- About a month ago.

8738. What did you get them for?-I got tea for 2s. 4d., sugar for 4d., and meal for 32s.

8739. What is the price of meal now?- About 48s. but it was 50s. in summer, and I bought a sack, or two bolls, at 32s. in Lerwick.

8740. What quantity of meal did you buy at Mossbank last, for which you paid 48s.?-I got it out in lesser quantities. They don't like to give very much at one time, and I had to take it in less quantities than I could get it in Lerwick.

8741. Were you in debt to the shop at the time?-A little; not very much.

8742. And they would not give it to you because you were in debt?-No.

8743. Was it by the lispund you bought it at Mossbank?-Yes; I paid 5s. 8d. per lispund for it, but about the end of July it was 6s. We generally take it by the quarter boll there.

8744. There are 32 lbs. to the lispund, and 280 lbs. in the sack?- Yes.

8745. Was the quality of the articles you bought in Lerwick, at the price you have mentioned, as good as what you got at Mossbank at the prices which [Page 213] say are charged there?-If there was any difference, they were better.

8746. But you had to carry them to Mossbank?-I had. The meal came by the steamer, and I had to pay 8d. for that.

8747. Can you not get cash from Pole, Hoseason, Co. when you require it, and go and buy your supplies in Lerwick?-Yes; what I require for the fishing, but not otherwise.

8748. You cannot get what you require for your family?-No.

8749. How did you happen to have money when you went and bought the meal in Lerwick?-I had it from my small boat fishing in the winter, and I saved the money.

Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE (recalled), examined.

8750. Is there anything further in what Blanch has said to which you wish to refer?-Yes; he said that 12s. was the contract price for curing our fish: that is false. We paid 13s. for curing fish at Urrafirth, by Arthur Harrison.

8751. Was that your contract price for the fish cured by him this year?-He has cured none for us this year. He only cured a few fish for us in the fall, and he got more than that for them.

8752. Then that was the contract price in 1870?-Yes, for curing alone. Then we had to pay 3s. a ton for landing and shipping these fish from Voe to Urrafirth, and 3s. to Voe again; so that the curing of the fish would cost us about £1.

8753. Why do you pay so heavy freights? Can you not have the fish landed at Urrafirth in the first place?-No. We send them there as a convenience for ourselves, but the men are bound to land them at Voe, and we have to remove them at our own expense. We have no storage at Urrafirth for them, and they have to be removed to our own stores again.

8754. Why do you carry your fish to Urrafirth to be cured?- Because we have not sufficient accommodation for them all at Voe when we have a large take of fish.

8755. Then you have to send your surplus fish all that way to be cured?-Yes.

8756. Does it not arise in that way that you have a loss upon these fish?-Yes, we have a loss upon the fish when we cure them by contract.

8757. These fish will cost you more than 50s. for curing?-Yes, they cost us considerably more.

8758. But that will be recouped by your other profit?-Yes; but of course we must pay that extra out of our own pockets.

8759. But it does not follow that you have a loss upon the total proceeds of the fish?-No, we would not need to have that.

8760. The profit you calculate upon obtaining from the sale of your fish is sufficient to cover an occasional loss of that sort, and is calculated accordingly?- Yes. Of course, the extra charge on the curing at Urrafirth won't come to nearly the £1 per ton which we have for storage and commission on the fish.

8761. Is there any one else who wishes to be examined?- [No answer.] Then I adjourn the inquiry here until further notice.

[<Adjourned.>]

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES GARRIOCH, examined.

8762. You are shopkeeper to Messrs. Hay & Co. at their shop in the island of Fetlar?-I am.

8763. How long have you been there?-Three years past on 1st December. Before that I was a store-keeper with them in Lerwick.

8764. Was that establishment in Lerwick the one from which both Faroe fishers and home fishers got their supplies for the season, and their outfit for the fishing?-Yes; and Messrs. Hay's country shops were also supplied from that shop for the most part.

8765. I understand the supplies for the country shops are sent down to you with invoices of the prices at which you are to sell them?-That is done with some shops belonging to Messrs. Hay, but with others it is not. To some of them the goods are sent down at cost price, and the shopkeeper fixes what prices he thinks right. That is what is done at Fetlar.

8766. I see from the books you have produced, that on September 25 oatmeal was 5s. 3d.: is that per lispund?-That is for a quarter-boll.

8767. Do you not sell by the lispund?-Sometimes we do, just as the parties want it.

8768. A quarter-boll would be 3 lbs. more than a lispund?-Yes.

8769. And 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll would be for 35 lbs.?-Yes.

8770. Have you the invoice showing at what price that was invoiced to you from Lerwick?-I have not.

8771. Do you remember how much it was invoiced at?-No. It was not a fixed thing for the whole season; it varies.

8772. When did you get your supplies of meal last summer?-It comes from Aberdeen almost weekly or fortnightly during the time the fishing continues.

8773. You do not sell much meal in Fetlar after the fishing is over?-No; the people then have their crops to depend upon.

8774. When do you begin to sell the greatest quantity of goods at your store?-About April; we begin to be much busier then. From September until April the people are depending for the most part upon their own crop, but sometimes they do take a little meal from us.

8775. Was 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll the selling price for meal during the whole season?-No; it differs greatly. Sometimes you will see it is more, and sometimes less.

8776. I see that it is 5s. 3d. in September, and 5s. 9d. in July?- Yes; I expect that would be about the dearest time.

8777. I see an entry of oatmeal, 22s. 8d., in August?-That would be for a boll.

8778. Do you sell a boll at the same price, proportionally, as a quarter-boll?-Just the same.

8779. You do not make a difference for the retail?-None whatever.

8780. Do Messrs. Hay hold Fetlar, or any part of it, under tack?- Not so far as I am aware.

8781. Are the fishermen there bound to fish for them in any way?-I don't think they are; at least not to my knowledge. They have tenants there; at least they are not tenants exactly, but Messrs. Hay are factors for the Earl of Zetland. I don't know how Lord Zetland's tenants do, but I don't think they are bound.

8782. At any rate they are not bound by their tacks in any way?- Not so far as I am aware,

[Page 214]

8783. Is it mostly Lord Zetland's tenants who fish for Messrs. Hay in Fetlar?-I think not.

8784. Do some of Lady Nicholson's tenants fish for them also?- Yes; I should think about half-and-half.

8785. Are there any other proprietors in Fetlar than Lord Zetland and Lady Nicholson?-Not for the fishermen. There are other proprietors in the island, but none of their tenants fish.

8786. I see here, under date June 1, 1871, an entry against George Gaunson, 'Cash for penalty per current account, £4, 2s. 2d.:' what does that mean?-He was summoned to court for some wrecked timber that he was in possession of, and that was his penalty, which was paid by me for him.

8787. You entered that to his debit?-Yes. What meant by 'current account' is, that I paid the money at Lerwick, and it was charged to me at current account, and I gave Hay & Co. credit for it in my book at Fetlar.

8788. How many tons of dry fish did you sell from Fetlar last year?-We sold the following quantities for 1871:

Tons. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs. Ling, 32 2 3 11 Tusk, 5 2 1 22 Cod, 3 16 3 17 Saith, 0 18 2 15

8789. Had you only ten boats' crews fishing for you last season?- There were eleven boats.

8790. Did they contain sixty-six men, or were some of them smaller boats?-Some of them were smaller boats, with only five men. For instance, in Laurence Donaldson's boat, although there were only six men, there were five shares, because two boys count for a share.

8791. How many women and boys had you employed in curing at Fetlar?-We had eight men and boys-no women.

8792. Have the beach boys got accounts in the ledger also?-Yes. They are all in one place. [Shows.]

8793. The first is Laurence Brown. His fee was 10s., and, after debiting his out-takes, he received 7s. 31/2d. in cash in full?-Yes.

8794. The next is John Sinclair, jun.; after debiting his out-takes, he received 8s. 4d. in cash?-Yes.

8795. The next is John Coutts, who received 9s. 6d.?-Yes.

8796. The next is James Laurenson; his fee was only 5s., and he received 14s. 11/2d. in cash?-Yes.

8797. The next is Arthur James Tulloch; his fee was 16s., and he received 6s. 21/2d.?-Yes; he was only employed during part of the season. I think I had eight besides him.

8798. The next is Peter Sinclair; he had a fee of 10s., and, after deducting his out-takes, he received 6d. in cash in full, but he had received 19s. 6d. in cash during the season?-Yes.

8799. The next is George Laurenson; his fee was £4 and he received £1, 14s. 6d. in cash at settlement, and sundry small sums in cash have been paid to him in the course of the year?- Yes. He was a young lad, about sixteen years of age, I think.

8800. The next is Robert Johnston; his fee was 15s., and he received 7s. 1d. in cash at settlement, having received 5s. 4d. in cash during the season?-Yes.

8801. The next is George Donaldson; his fee was 10s. and he received 9s. 1d. in cash at settlement?-Yes.

8802. He seems to have got a number of loaves and biscuit?-Yes. His supplies were almost entirely for food.

8803. There are also the accounts of two men here; one of them is Magnus Brown. Is he one of your principal curers?-Yes.

8804. His fee, called beach-fee was £8, 5s., and he received 17s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement?-Yes. He received £1 at the commencement, and the next entry is 6s. 9d. paid for purchase at sale. That was purchase at a sale of wreck, which was paid for him by me, and was the same as cash. Including that purchase at the sale, he received about 30s. in cash in the course of the season.

8805. The next is Arthur N. Henderson: was the other beach-man?-Yes.

8806. His fee was £5; he received £1, 6s. 3d. in cash at settlement, and 4s. 6d. was paid to him during the season?-Yes.

8807. Were these all your beach people?-Yes.

8808. Why are they not paid weekly wages?-They could have it in that way if they wanted it. It would be all the same to us; I don't see any difference.

8809. Why do they not want it?-I don't think there is any particular reason, except that they don't wish it in that way.

8810. Do you think they would rather have it settled for at the end of the year?-I think so.

8811. Are not the people that Messrs. Hay employ in the curing at Lerwick paid weekly wages?-Yes.

8812. But at all the stations, I suppose, they are paid by beach fees?-Yes; and these are paid at the end of the year.

8813. The books which you keep at Fetlar are, first, the wet fish book, in which each boat's crew has the amount of each delivery of fish entered?-Yes.

8814. Then you have another fish book showing the amount of dry fish shipped by your different vessels?-Yes; that book [showing] is for the season of 1871.

8815. Do you begin to ship so early as June?-Yes. The men generally catch a few fish in winter now, and these are shipped first. The wet fish that are caught in winter are not in the book I have brought.

8816. Have you a separate book for your winter fish?-Yes.

8817. What quantity of winter fish do you generally sell?-I cannot say exactly; but for about two years I have had only about 2 or 21/2 tons of dry fish. They are cured along with the first fish caught in the spring, and sent down.

8818. Then the shipment on June 6th of 4 tons 7 cwt. of ling will include some summer fish as well?-Yes, spring fish.

8819. The only other book you keep is the ledger?-Yes, and the goods account book-a book for the goods and the expenses on the fish-curing.

8820. How do you keep your goods account book?-I enter every invoice as it comes from Lerwick, and against them I enter my returns.

8821. All your sales of goods are entered under the names of the parties to whom they are sold?-Yes.

8822. And that is the only entry of sales you make?-Yes. We don't enter what we get ready money for.

8823. You do not keep a waste day-book?-No.

8824. How do you balance the accounts with your fishermen?- The ledger will show.

8825. Is that done by you, or by some one from, Lerwick?- Always by some one from Lerwick.

8826. How long does it generally take to get all your fishermen settled with?-Not long; I think about three days.

8827. Some one comes from Lerwick, and the fishermen come to the office and are settled with in his presence and in yours?-Yes.

8828. Are the accounts read over to the men, or do they generally have a pass-book?-They are generally read over. Some carry a pass-book, and some do not.

8829. Are they always read over?-I don't think they are always read over. Generally I read them, over before the men come up to settle, so as to have them added up and ready.

8830. The ledger is written up from day to day as the goods are taken out?-Yes, perhaps twice or thrice, in a day.

8831. And the fisherman signs at settlement?-Yes.

8832. He signs also when there is a balance against him, which sometimes happens?-Yes.

8833. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a spirit licence for the sale of whisky?-No.

8834. Do you not sell whisky at till?-No, not unless a man asks me to order it for him; and that [Page 215] goes into the current account at Lerwick, and is a separate thing altogether from the ordinary dealings.

8835. Is there no public-house in the island?-None.

8836. Do you buy hosiery at the store in Fetlar?-None.

8837. Are there any entries in this book [showing] relating to the purchase of kelp?-The parties who work the kelp have accounts in the book, and the kelp is credited to them there.

8838. How many people are employed gathering kelp in Fetlar?- There is no one regularly employed, only those who are ready to make it.

8839. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a tack of the kelp shores?-No; it is done by any one who wishes to make it.

8840. And the entries are made to the credit of the women who gather it and burn it?-Yes.

8841. From how many of them have you made purchases during last year?-Only from about half a dozen. I have only purchased about 28 cwt. of it.

8842. What is the price paid for it?-4s. 6d. a cwt.

8843. Is that generally taken out in goods?-No.

8844. Do you pay 4s. 6d. when it is paid in cash?-Just the same; I make no difference.

8845. Do you not have two prices for it as they have in some places?-No; it is all the same to me whether they take money or goods. I should like them to take the goods, no doubt, but I don't compel them.

8846. In Robina Fraser's account I see that she has got more money than she has given kelp for: why was that?-She made a promise to work more, but she has not done it yet.

8847. Have you ever tried to send out a number of men to the winter fishing in large boats from Fetlar?-No.

8848. Do you consider that would be impracticable?-I think so. The coast is rather tempestuous, with heavy tides, and I don't think they would make anything of it.

8849. Do you purchase cattle and other farm stock for Messrs. Hay?-I purchase fat cattle at Martinmas, but only from the people privately. I bought eleven last Martinmas.

8850. Are these generally credited to the sellers in the ledger, or are they paid for in cash?-They are paid for in cash at the time when the cattle are taken away.

8851. Do any of these purchases appear in the ledger?-No.

8852. Are the rents on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar collected by you?-No, they are generally collected by the man who comes up to settle with the fishermen.

8853. Are separate receipts given for them?-Yes.

8854. Does he also settle for the cattle?-No, I generally settle for the cattle myself.

8855. So that the cattle do not enter the rent account?-Sometimes they do. Sometimes they wish me to send on the amount to Hay & Co, to be credited in the next account.

8856. Of the eleven cattle which you purchased last year, would some be settled for in that way?-Yes. I cannot say how many, but I think four.

8857. You have no books showing that?-None here.

8858. They will be in the possession of Messrs. Hay; or have you a cattle-book?-No; I don't have one.

8859. Do the purchases of cattle pass through your current account with Hay & Co.?-Yes.

8860. Have you a private account of your own?-My account is in the ledger, but we have a current account besides that. That current account contains whatever comes from Lerwick, charged at the Lerwick retail prices, and then all my returns of money or anything are put to the current account.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE GAUNSON, examined.

8861. You are a fisherman in Fetlar, and a tenant on Lord Zetland's property?-I am.

8862. Are you at liberty to fish for any one you please?-I don't know; we get as good a price from Messrs. Hay as we would get from any one else, and we fish for them.

8863. Is there any one else on the island who would buy your fish?-There is only one man on the east side, Jerome Brown, who takes a little besides Messrs. Hay's people.

8864. But you don't know whether you are at liberty to fish for Brown or not?-I don't know.

8865. Did you make any arrangement about fishing when you took your land?-I did not.

8866. How long have you held it?-I think I have been 28 or 30 years in the island.

8867. Have you fished every year during that period?-Sometimes I fished, and sometimes I was at sea.

8868. But when you have been at home you have always fished, and sold your fish to Messrs. Hay at the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

8869. Have you generally found that you had balance in your favour at the end of the season?-Yes, very often; but it did not matter, because when I wanted anything, whether money or goods or meal, I always got it. Very often we had no money for the house, but we always got supplies from them.

8870. Where do you sell your cattle and your eggs, and other farm stock?-We sell them just wherever we can get any person to buy them. There are cattle dealers and other persons who come about buying them.

8871. Do you sell oftener to them or to Messrs. Hay?-It makes very little difference; when we have any cattle to sell, whenever any one comes round he gets them.

8872. Did you ever sell a beast to anybody but Messrs. Hay?- Yes; many a time. I have sold some horses to lots of people who were going about. I have sold some to Mr. Thomas Williamson, in Yell. I think he got the last one I sold; it was in February. It was a little horse.

8873. Who have you sold your cattle to?-Sometimes to Messrs. Hay's people, and sometimes to any other people who came round asking for them.

8874. Did you ever sell them to anybody except Messrs. Hay?-I have.

8875. When?-Some time before this.

8876. How long ago?-Last year I had none but the horse.

8877. Do you sell one or two beasts every year?-No; some years I sell none at all, and some years only one.

8878. Where do you sell your eggs?-Just anywhere that we can get the best price for them.

8879. Do you sell them generally to Messrs. Hay?-No; sometimes not.

8880. Is there anybody else in Fetlar who buys eggs?-Yes; Mr. William Tulloch buys some.

8881. Has he a small shop?-It is not a great deal of a shop that he has. He deals in cottons and such as that, and he buys eggs. I get 6d. a dozen for them sometimes, and sometimes perhaps 7d.

8882. Did you sell most of your eggs last year to Mr. Tulloch or to Mr. Garrioch?-I could not say. I don't deal much in that way myself.

8883. You leave that to your wife?-Yes.

8884. Do you always get your supplies from Hay Co.?-Yes. I never deal with Tulloch or Brown, and there is no other shop in the island that is worth going into.

8885. But are there any other shops at all except Tulloch's and Brown's?-I daresay some woman would sell some things sometimes, but they would not be of any account.

8886. Do you know where Tulloch and Brown, and that woman you speak of, get the goods they sell don't know.

[Page 216]

8887. Do you generally get a good quality of stuff from Hay & Co., at a fair price?-Yes; they are very fair prices.

8888. Have you ever got goods at Lerwick?-Yes.

8889. Do you find the goods supplied at Hay & Co.'s shop in Fetlar to be as good and as cheap its those you get in Lerwick?- Yes; I have no reason to complain about that.

8890. What was the price of meal that you have been buying lately?-It is much the same as we get it at in Lerwick; sometimes it little higher and sometimes a little cheaper. I think last season it was generally about 20s. per boll for oatmeal; but I don't remember about that particularly.

8891. Do you have to keep up your own houses and your own fences?-Yes; the house I am living in was built when I came to it, and it is the same yet; we have to keep it in good order.

8892. The landlord does not do that for you?-I don't know; but the last time something was done to the house it was put down to Lord Zetland's account.

8893. Are most of the tenants on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar fishing for Messrs. Hay?-I suppose most of them do.

8894. Do they generally understand that they are under any obligation to fish for them?-I don't think so; but it would make very little difference fishing for any other body, when we would get the same price from them.

8895. You don't think of curing your own fish, then?-No.

8896. Where do the Fetlar people sell their hosiery?-Generally in Lerwick; they go down there with it. My family do not knit much, because they have no wool, unless they get some to buy.

8897. What is paid for wool?-Sometimes it is 2s. per lb. for fine wool, sometimes 1s. 6d., and so on.

8898. Do you get that from your neighbours?-There are not many neighbours near us who have any sheep.

8899. Where do you buy it, then?-Sometimes we go to Lerwick and buy it, and sometimes in Yell.

8900. Is there no shop in Fetlar where you can buy it?-No.

8901. Where do you buy it in Lerwick?-I don't know; I do not buy it myself. They buy it just at any place where they can get it best.

8902. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Hay & Co.

8903. Is it deducted from your account when you settle?-Yes.

8904. Have you ever tried the winter fishing?-No; they don't do much in that with us. They might catch some in winter, but not many. They have generally a long way to go to seek them, and it requires particularly good weather to go out with the little boats.

8905. Have you not large enough boats for the winter fishing?- No.

8906. Do you think you could do anything if you had large decked boats?-I don't know; they have never tried them there. They might do something with them, but I don't think they would pay very well.

8907. Have your rents been raised lately?-No; they were raised a little about eight or nine years ago.

8908. Was there any different arrangement made at that time about the fishing?-No.

8909. Have you ever known any man in Fetlar who had to pay liberty money for freedom to sell his fish to another than the tacksman or factor?-No.

8910. And no man in your time has been put out of his ground for fishing to another?-No; I never heard of anything of the kind in Fetlar, either on Lord Zetland's or Lady Nicholson's ground.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, WILLIAM STEWART, examined.

8911. You are a tenant and fisherman at Seafield, Mid Yell?- Yes. Kirkabister is the town I live in.

8912. Who is your landlord?-Mrs. Budge.

8913. To whom do you sell your fish now?-I have sold them this year to Mr. Thomas Williamson.

8914. Who did you sell them to last year?-To Mr. Laurence Williamson, Linkshouse.

8915. Why did you leave him?-Because Mr. Sievwright, Mrs. Budge's factor, wished us to do it.

8916. Did you get a letter from him about the fishing?-Yes.

8917. Have you got it?-Yes. [Produces the following letter]:

'<Lerwick>, 22<d Nov>. 1870. 'WILLIAM, I now write, as I promised, to explain what I expect the Seafield tenants to do in regard to fishing, that you may communicate the same to them.

'The business premises at Seafield cannot be allowed to remain vacant, and consequently unprofitable while it is clear they must do so unless the tenants fish to the tenant of these premises. The Seafield tenants, therefore, must fish to Mr. Thomas Williamson upon fair and reasonable terms, and I understand he is quite prepared to meet them on such terms. I believe he will, in every respect, do you justice; and so long as he does so, you have no reason to complain. But should it happen that he fails to treat you fairly and honourably (of which I have no fear), you can let me know, and matters will soon be put right. You and the tenants, however, must not act towards Mr. Williamson in a selfish or hard way either, for it is quite as possible for you to do so to him as it is for him to do so to you. Both he and you all must work together, heartily and agreeably; and if you do so, I have no fear, humanly speaking, that the result will be success to both.-I am, yours faithfully, W. SIEVWRIGHT. 'William Stewart, Kirkabister, Seafield, Mid Yell.'

8918. Is that the only letter you have got on the subject?-The only one.

8919. Have you a written tack?-No.

8920. You hold your land from year to year?-Yes.

8921. Have you, since you received that letter, fished for Mr. Thomas Williamson?-Yes, in the spring and summer.

8922. And in winter?-In winter there was not a great deal doing.

8923. But what fish you did catch, what did you do with them?-I believe we sometimes went to Mr. Laurence Williamson and sometimes to Mr. Thomas Williamson with them, just as it suited.

8924. When you received that letter, had you made any arrangement to fish for the following year?-No.

8925. Had you not arranged to fish for Mr Laurence Williamson?-No, not for myself.

8926. Nor for any one else?-No. There were none of our boat's crew who had made any arrangement with Laurence Williamson, so far as I know; but the other boat's crew I think had made some sort of arrangement. There are only two boats' crews that belong to Mrs. Budge's property.

8927. How many tenants are there on her property?-I think there were formerly 23, but now there are only either 21 or 22.

8928. Mr. Sievwright speaks in his letter about the business premises at Seafield: what do you understand by that?-The shop and the station.

8929. Are there a merchant's shop and a curing station at Seafield?-Yes.

8930. Were they not let previously to the time when that letter was written?-No.

8931. Do you get the same price from Mr. Thomas Williamson that Mr. Laurence Williamson used to give you?-Yes.

8932. That was the current price at the end of the year?-Yes.

8933. But you have got your goods from him instead of buying them from Laurence Williamson?-For myself I did; but I think some of the men bought their goods from Lerwick.

8934. Were these men paid in cash?-Yes.

8935. Was Mr. Thomas Williamson's shop [Page 217]the nearest place to your house where you could get goods?-Yes.

8936. Did you take your goods from him before you fished for him?-Sometimes. I had a sort of running account at his shop. I was doing bits of jobs for him, and sometimes I got money, and sometimes I took some of his goods.

8937. But you did not do so much with him before as after you got that letter?-No; the principal part of my dealing was for the fishing.

8938. But you did not buy so many goods from him before last winter?-Certainly not.

8939. Did you buy from Mr. Laurence Williamson then?-I did, because I was keeping a running account with him then.

8940. Do you keep a running account with him now?-I was forced to do that, because I was not clear with him when I went to fish for Mr. Thomas Williamson.

8941. Were you therefore forced to keep a running account with him?-I was not in any way forced, but the account was not cleared up, because I did not have the means.

8942. Have you added to it since then?-Not much.

8943. But it is not paid up?-It is not; I have never been able to do it.

8944. Do you ever sell any beasts off your ground?-I sold one at 1st May last year, at the sale.

8945. Who was the purchaser?-Mr. Thomas Williamson.

8946. Was that at a sale at Mid Yell for the whole country?-The sale to which I went was at Cullivoe for North Yell.

8947. Had you promised Mr. Thomas Williamson the beast before you went?-No. When I went I was at liberty to sell it to any one I liked, but he bought the beast at the roup.

8948. Did anybody else bid for it?-No.

8949. Was it marked?-No. It never was entered into the bill of sale at the roup.

8950. But were the horns of the beast marked at any time?-I don't know.

8951. Why was it not entered in the bill of sale?-I made an agreement with Williamson just to take it away at the price I fixed. He said he would give what I asked for it. I asked £5, and I sent the beast home, and he gave me that for it.

8952. That took place in the first season you fished for Mr. Thomas Williamson?-Yes.

8953. By that time, I suppose, he had a little account against you?-I don't think it would be much. About that time the spring fishing was finished, and I don't think there was very much either way between us. I don't think I had much to give him, or that he had much to give me.

8954. Have you a pass-book?-No.

8955. How was the price of that beast paid?-It was remitted to Mr. Sievwright for my previous year's rent.

8956. Why had you not paid it before?-Because I had not the means.

8957. Had Mr. Sievwright been asking you for your rent before?- Yes. When he was here at Hallowmas I offered him the beast, and he told me to keep her until any time when I was aware that cattle would be at the best price.

8958. Did he say anything to you about selling it?-No. I just sold it to Mr. Williamson, and he remitted the money to Mr. Sievwright.

8959. Was that arranged between you and Mr. Sievwright, or between you and Mr. Williamson?-It was arranged between Mr. Williamson and me that he was to send on the money.

8960. Did Williamson ask you to agree to that arrangement?-No; I asked him to do it for me, because he was in the habit of writing to Mr. Sievwright oftener than me.

8961. Had you paid your rent through Mr. Williamson before, or have you done it since?-No.

8962. Have you paid your rent that was due at November?-I have not paid it yet. I intended to be in Lerwick before this time, but I have not been able to get.

8963. Have you settled with Mr. Williamson for the last year's fishing?-Yes. I think I had £6, 14s. to get, and I got it in cash.

8964. Did none of that go to pay your rent?-It is lying yet to go. I have it in my possession, because I have not seen Mr. Sievwright since.

8965. What price do you pay for meal at Seafield?-I think the first I got was 22s. 6d. I think the last was much about the same, but there might be a difference of 6d. or so.

8966. Was it of good quality?-It was very good.

8967. Where does your wife sell her eggs?-Anywhere that she can get the best tea, from Lerwick north to Seafield.

8968. Does she always sell them for tea?-For tea, or any small thing she can get.

8969. Are these sales settled for at the time?-Yes; they are settled right away.

8970. How much tea will she get for a dozen eggs?-I cannot tell, because I leave all these matters to her.

8971. Where does she sell her knitting?-She does not do much of that.

8972. Has she an account of her own?-No; she never had.

8973. Is there any kelp gathered here?-Very little.

8974. Who buys it?-Mr Thomas Williamson has bought some for a year or two back but I don't think he bought any last year. My eldest daughter was employed for two years in working at it in the summer time, and I think she had an account for it; but I don't know much about that.

8975. Were you at one time a tenant in Whalsay?-Yes.

8976. When did you leave it?-In 1862.

8977. Up till that time you were a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

8978. What rent did you pay there?-The rent I always paid for my ground was 26s.

8979. Did you fish for Mr. Bruce at that time?-Yes, for the late Mr. William Bruce.

8980. And you had an account with him at the shop in Whalsay?- Yes.

8981. How did you pay your rent?-Generally by fishing.

8982. Was it put into your account?-Yes. The thing was carried on on a very strange system. Our land was put in to us at a low rent, and our fish were taken from us at as low a value. The prices for the fish never varied, either for the spring or summer.

8983. Do you mean that they were the same every year?-They were. Whatever they might be in the markets, they were all the same to us.

8984. Had you never the benefit of a rise in the market at all?- Never.

8985. Did you not object to that?-We just had to content ourselves with it, or leave the place.

8986. It was part of your bargain for your land, that you were to give your fish at a certain rate?-Yes; there were so much of the fish taken off for the land. That was the first of the fishing. We got 3s. 4d. cwt. for ling, 2s. 6d. for tusk, and 20d. for cod, and so much of each kind of fish was taken off until the land was paid for; and then the prices were raised to 4s., I think, for ling, 3s. 2d. for tusk, and 2s. 6d. for cod, for all the rest of the summer fishing.

8987. Did you get these prices for a number of years?-I think for the thirteen years that I was on the station they never varied one halfpenny for the summer fishing. The prices for the winter fishing varied little. Sometimes we would sell the small cod as low as 2s. 6d., and at other times at 3s.

8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment; but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing.

8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you [Page 218] were paid at the latter part of the season were lower than the market price of the fish?-We knew that but it was just the bargain.

8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in that time?-With every one.

8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year after I came here about 1863.

8992. Why did you leave Whalsay?-There was new division of the land, and I did not consider that I was getting a good farm. I was personally acquainted with Mr. Budge, who was leaving the island then and coming to this property, and I came along with him.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, LAURENCE WILLIAMSON, examined.

8993. You are a merchant in this neighbourhood?-Yes; at Linkshouse, Mid Yell.

8994. Have you been long in business there?-Nearly eight years.

8995. On whose property are your premises?-The late Robert Nevin Spence's property.

8996. Are there many tenants on it?-There are a few, but I could not tell the number exactly.

8997. Are they engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.

8998. Are they at liberty to fish to any one they please?-Yes.

8999. You were engaged in the fish-curing business to a certain extent?-Yes. I do very little in it now.

9000. Your business has been considerably reduced?-Yes.

9001. Has that been since Mr. Sievwright wrote the letter which was produced by the last witness?-Yes. Mrs. Budge's tenants were the men that I had fishing to me and when they went away I could not fill up my boats.

9002. Had you made arrangements with any men for the fishing of last season when they were taken away?-Yes. It was rather too late when they let me know they were going.

9003. How do you mean that they were too late?-They commonly make up their boats' crews about Hallowmas or Martinmas, at the time of settlement, and one of the crews had agreed to fish for me for the rising season, not knowing then that they were to be taken away. Of course they had to leave me, because they knew, or at least they believed, they would be differently dealt with if they did not leave.

9004. Did you make any objection to them leaving after having struck a bargain with you?-Yes, I slightly objected to it; but, of course, I could not help it.

9005. In what way did you object?-The men who formed that boat's crew had signed a sort of written agreement that they were to fish for me in the rising year, on the same terms as they had agreed with me before. Sometimes they don't have a written agreement, only a verbal one, but on this occasion there was written agreement entered into.

9006. I suppose a verbal agreement is the usual way of arranging for the season's fishing?-Yes, generally.

9007. Did these men happen to have a written agreement?-Yes; we had a little bit form drawn up and agreed to.

9008. Had you any reason for having a written agreement at that time?-I was rather doubtful in my own mind that they would be leaving me, or rather that they would be forced to leave.

9009. Was that because there had been some talk about Mr. Thomas Williamson getting these fishermen?-The talk was not about Mr. Thomas Williamson at that time, but about Mr. Magnus Mouat. I think his name was mentioned when the talk commenced about the men leaving.

9010. But you did not insist in your objection to your agreement with the men being departed from?-No.

9011. Was that for fear of injuring the men?-Yes. Of course I saw that I could not legally hold them.

9012. Why? If they had agreed to fish for you, were they not bound to fulfil their bargain?-I thought I could not legally hold them, and I just let them go.

9013. Were you not afraid of them suffering for it if they fulfilled their bargain with you?-They must have suffered for it too.

9014. Did you make any representation on the subject to Mr. Sievwright?-No. The only communication I had was with the men themselves.

9015. How many men did you lose in that way?-Twelve.

9016. Were some of these men in your debt at the time?-Some of them were. They had a sort of running account.

9017. Have you any men fishing for you this year at all?-For the rising year I believe we will have two or three boats' crews.

9018. Had you any last year?-We had two. I and another man are in a sort of company, and we had two boats last year-one each.

9019. Did you find that the fact of Mrs. Budge's tenants leaving you and going across the water materially affected your business in the shop?-I cannot say that it injured it very much.

9020. But it would make some difference?-I don't think it made a great deal.

9021. Were not their accounts taken away from you?-There are a good many of them who deal with me still, but not to the same extent.

9022. From what quarter did you get your fishermen who engaged with you for the rising season?-From the parish of North Yell. That is the next parish to this.

9023. How far do they live from you?-Some of them are 10 miles from here.

9024. What estates are they on?-I could hardly tell, except about some of them.

9025. Have any of these men accounts for supplies in your shop?-Yes; perhaps 4 or 5 of them.

9026. For whom were they fishing last year?-Some of them fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co, and some for Spence & Co.

9027. Do you know why they are leaving these merchants?-I cannot say.

9028. Have you offered them better terms?-I don't think so. They hardly ever say what they have been getting before. We just make them an offer, and if they accept it we come to an understanding.

9029. Do you know whether any of them were indebted, at last settlement, to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., or Spence & Co.?-I cannot say.

9030. Are these men nearer to Greenbank than to you?-Yes, a great deal.

9031. Are your accounts with fishermen kept in a ledger?-I keep them in a sort of shop ledger. Each boat's crew has a company account, and each man has private account. [Produces ledger.]

9032. Your fish-book is a separate book?-Yes; with columns showing the weight of the fish delivered.

9033. What are these pages which you have turned down in your ledger?-They contain the account of William Stewart, who has just been examined.

9034. I see that for 1869 the balance of his account carried forward was £10, 0s. 41/2d., the total of his out-takes at the end of 1869, including that balance was £17, 8s. 11d. The balance due by him then was £6, 19s., after allowing £10, 9s. 11d. for his fish, which was reduced by half of skipper's fee £1, being a balance of £5, 19s. carried to the year 1870?-Yes.

9035. Then in 1870 there is an entry of 13s. 11/2d. account at North Yell: what does that mean?-That is for some small things he got there. We cure our fish there.

9036. The amount of his account at the settlement of 1870 was £17, 6s. 01/2d., and the amount of his fishing was £14, 18s. 41/2d., leaving a balance of £2, 7s. 8d. There is it deduction of 17s. 6d.: what was that for?-It was for a man who went off for Stewart.

[Page 219]

9037. Then there is it check for 19s.?-That was a check he gave me for that sum.

9038. The balance which is left is £2, 6s. 2d.?-Yes.

9039. On January 4, 1871, there are-spirits 2s. 21/2d., and on November 18 and November 29 there are additional supplies to the amount of 11s. 6d., making the balance now due £2, 19s. 101/2d?-Yes.

9040. Are these all the supplies that you have given him since he ceased to fish for you?-Yes. These are all that have been entered in the book.

9041. But he may have got others and paid for them in cash?- Yes.

9042. And he would get goods in payment for his winter fishing?-He has not been at the winter fishing this year.

9043. Or at the spring fishing last year?-He was at the spring fishing for Mr. Thomas Williamson.

9044. What men have you engaged for the rising year?-The engagement has been made partly with my partner in North Yell, and I don't know the names of them yet.

9045. But you know which men have opened accounts with you from North Yell?-Yes. There is Charles More, Gutcher, North Yell; he has got supplies to the amount of 19s. 8d.; and Thomas Brown, who has got supplies to the amount of 17s.

9046. Are these men bound to you now by written engagement?- No, it is merely verbal. Their boat's crew is made up.

9047. Who is your partner in North Yell?-Arthur Nicholson; he has a shop of his own at Gutcher.

9048. Has he boats of his own besides those he has in company with you?-No; but we have never been rightly in company. He has been doing my work in North Yell, and getting a fee for it, and our fish have been thrown together, and sold together.

9049. Is this [showing] the only book you keep?-It is the only book I keep for accounts. I keep an invoice-book and it fish-book also.

9050. Do you keep a day-book?-I keep a book for scrawling things into, until they are posted up in the ledger.

9051. Do you buy kelp?-No.

9052. Do you buy hosiery?-A little sometimes.

9053. Do you pay for it in the way that is usual in the country, by goods across the counter?-Yes, mostly.

9054. Do you give out wool to knit?-I sometimes give out worsted, and I pay for the knitting of it in the same way.

9055. Have you a knitters' book, or are the knitters' accounts kept in the ledger?-I keep a book for women's accounts.

9056. Is that book used entirely for sales of hosiery?-No. We don't do a great deal in hosiery. We buy few haps and small shawls, but the principal thing we buy is worsted. I buy a good deal in the course year from the spinners, and I sell it chiefly in Lerwick to the merchants there. I sell most of it to Mr. Robert Linklater. I invoice it to the merchants, and I take a note of the quantities when I send them away.

9057. When did you send away the last?-I suppose it would be about a couple of months ago.

9058. At what price did you send it out?-We get 3d. per cut for very fine, and 21/2d. and 2d. for the coarsest.

9059. You sell to the merchants as a sort of wholesale dealer?- Yes.

9060. The price per pound of that worsted varies according to the quality?-Yes.

9061. It does not correspond with the price per cut in any way?- No. Of course the finer the worsted the finer the thread is.

9062. You do not calculate the price of that worsted, by the pound at all?-No. We just judge of the fineness or the thickness of it.

9063. The names of the men who were fishing for you in 1871 are entered in the ledger?-Yes.

9064. Had you generally more than two boats previous to last year?-Yes. We sometimes had four, but that was the most I ever had. This [showing] is the company account for one of the boats, Basil Ramsay & Co., and then there are the private accounts of the men.

9065. In Basil Ramsay's private account, the entry 'to cash to rent' on November 17, 1869, referred to cash advanced to him for the purpose of paying his rent?-Yes. He was at that time £2, 11s. 61/2d. in my debt upon the settlement of the previous year. After a bad year I have to advance money to the fishermen in that way, in order to prevent them from being turned out.

9066. Here [showing] is an account of Janet Sinclair, Herra: who is she?-She keeps a small shop of her own, and sells things for me at Herra and buys worsted for me.

9067. Have you many women employed in that way selling goods for you?-Only that one.

9068. In another account there is meal 3s.-that would be half a lispund-in August 1871: was that the selling price at the time?- Very likely it was.

9069. There is also flour 1s. 2d. on the same date: how much was that?-8 lbs., or a peck.

9070. Where do you get your supplies of meal and flour?-Chiefly from Lerwick, from R. & C. Robertson.

9071. Would you consider yourself likely to drive a much larger business if you had a number of fishermen in your employment?- I don't know. Of course there would be more men and more stir and more traffic, and I would likely turn over more goods, because if the men could buy as cheaply from me they would not go anywhere else.

9072. Have you ever had any difficulty in getting the men from another merchant to fish for you in consequence of them being in debt to that other merchant-I never tried that.

9073. But have you found that men had difficulty in engaging with you on that account?-No.

9074. Have you ever been asked by any merchant to undertake the debt due to him by any man whom you employed?-I have never been asked by the merchant, but I have been asked by the men for a little money to clear off their account with another merchant when I engaged them.

9075. Have you been asked to be a security for them?-No. I have only given them cash.

9076. When did you do that last?-It is five years ago. There was a boat's crew who left Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at that time and came over to me. That was Basil Ramsay's boat.

9077. And you advanced them money with which to pay their debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; there was a little advance required.

9078. Do you suppose you will have that to do with the boats' crews you have engaged this year?-I don't think so.

9079. Do you know whether they are clear?-I don't know.

9080. How do you ascertain the current price at the end of the year for settling with your men?-We know what the fish cost, and we know what they sell for. We know what the wet fish turn out dry. We can make a calculation of that from the quantity of green fish delivered to us and from the quantity of dry fish which we have to sell.

9081. How much was the proportion in your settlement last year?-I cannot tell exactly what it was last year, but on an average it is 2 cwt. 14 lbs. to 2 cwt. 20 lbs. of wet fish to 1 cwt. of dry fish.

9082. Do you make the allowance according to the proportion you ascertain in each year to exist between your total weight of dry fish and your total weight of green fish?-Yes; there are calculations of that kind made. I don't do it personally, but I believe some of the big curers do it, and then we pay after them.

9083. Do all the large curers agree upon a certain average for each year?-No; they don't make each other acquainted with that. They just pay according to what they sell the fish for, and they give the fishermen the benefit of the rise or fall in the market.

[Page 220]

9084. I am not talking of the average of the current price; I am talking of the average weight of the dry fish as against the green. Does each merchant make his own calculation with regard to that?-I suppose so. I have made calculations in some years, and in others I have not.

9085. How do you take it when you do not make it calculation?-I wait until I see what is current, and then I pay the same.

9086. That is for the money price, but the current price depends on the proportion of dry fish to green?-Yes.

9087. You find out what the large curers have been selling for or have been allowing their men, and you give the same?-Yes.

9088. Are you aware whether all the large curers give the same current price or does it vary with the different houses?-In North Yell, Spence & Co. have some fishermen, and Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have some. We hear what their men are paid, and then our men are paid the same.

9089. Do Pole Hoseason, & Co, and Spence & Co., so far as you know, always pay the same rate?-Yes.

9090. Do you know how their current rate is fixed, or how it is ascertained what the men are to get?-I suppose they just make a calculation in the way I have mentioned.

9091. But you don't know anything about it except that you hear what they pay?-No. I make a calculation for myself to see whether it is over or under, but we tell our men that we will give the current price stated for these parties if they will come and fish for us.

9092. Is your bargain with regard to boat hire the price of lines, and so on, the same with your men as Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have with their men?-Sometimes it varies a little; it is not always fixed. Sometimes we give the men half-a-year's hire off, as an encouragement. They are what are called freemen, and we have to give them some inducement before they will come to us.

9093. What is the usual hire in Yell?-The hire is divided into two. It is £6: £2, 8s. for the boat, and £3, 12s. for the lines.

9094. Is that charged against the boat in the company account?- It is just made up in the balance with the men, and settled for by them. They always carry pass-books.

9095. Then that does not enter the company account?-No.

9096. What is entered in the company account?-It is just the goods got for the supply of the men during the fishing season at the fishing station. [Shows one account.] The North Yell account is an account kept at the station in a pass-book. The boat's hire is estimated before the earnings are divided into six; we make a balance sheet of it, which is added up, and then we place each man's balance to his account.

9097. When you make a deduction from the boat hire as an inducement for the men to fish for you, do you mean that instead of £2, 8s. you charge them only £1, 4s.?-Sometimes we take more off than that. Perhaps on a £6 hire we will take off £3.

9098. Is not that a very liberal deduction?-Yes.

9099. You cannot have much profit on your boats when you do that?-There is no profit on the boats whatever.

9100. What profit do you get on hiring out boats at all?-We get no benefit from that. We only get little benefit from the fish and from the goods sold.

9101. Is it usual to allow so large a deduction from the boat hire?-I cannot say what is done by any one but myself. We have not been in the habit of doing it much. We sometimes take a little off the hire of the boat, in order to make it as moderate for the men as possible.

9102. Are you doing that just now in order to induce fishermen to come to you?-Yes. They come and say they will fish for us if we will give them the currency, and perhaps half the hire down, or the whole hire down.

9103. So that the deduction on the boat hire is really a premium for them coming to fish for you?-Exactly.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ROBERT SMITH, examined.

9104. You are now a fisherman and tenant at Burravoe, on the land of Mr. Henderson?-I am.

9105. Were you formerly resident on the island of Samphray?- Yes. I was there for 35 years.

9106. For whom did you fish when you were there?-For Mr. Robert Hoseason, and his son-in-law James Hoseason, all that time.

9107. Did the island belong to them?-Half of it did, and the other half belonged to Lord Zetland. I lived on Mr. Hoseason's half.

9108. Were you bound to fish for them at that time?-Yes.

9109. Did you ever sell your fish to any one else?-No; we had no occasion to do so, because we got the same payment from him as from another.

9110. Did you never sell your winter fish to another?-No.

9111. Where did you get your supplies at that time?-From Mr. Hoseason at Mossbank.

9112. You kept an account with him, and settled at the end of the year?-Yes, every year.

9113. Had you generally anything to get at the settlement?- Sometimes we had a few pounds to get, and sometimes we could not afford to pay the balance.

9114. You never dealt anywhere else at all?-No; there was no one else near hand that we could have gone to.

9115. Did you never think of going to Lerwick?-No; we went very often to Lerwick, but not in the way of dealing. It was always from Mr. Hoseason that we got what we wanted when he was employing

9116. When you left Samphray you came to Burravoe?-Yes.

9117. Why did you leave?-Because Samphray was thrown waste and made into a park for sheep and cattle.

9118. You have since lived at Burravoe and fished for Mr. Henderson?-Yes.

9119. You have been a skipper of his?-Yes.

9120. Are you to fish for him next year?-I don't know if I will be able to go; I am getting too old. I have been at the fishing every year since 1820.

9121. Is it the bargain with you at Burravoe that you are to fish for your landlord?-Yes.

9122. But you will not be put out of your land if you give up fishing altogether?-No, not that I know of. I have no thought of that at the present time; at least I have no knowledge of it.

9123. Have you spoken to Mr. Henderson about not fishing for him next year?-I have not. I have not made a settlement yet.

9124. Did he not tell you that he would not remove you this year?-No, he has not told me that; but I expect that he will not remove me if I can pay my rent. He has been very kind to me.

9125. Are you sure that he did not tell you that you might remain this year?-I am sure he did not, but he told me that he would not throw me off while I was able to do anything. That is all the security I have.

9126. What do you mean by doing anything?-Any employment that he may put me to, or anything in the way of fishing if I am able to go to it.

9127. Does not the payment of your rent depend upon your fishing?-Sometimes it does; but if I have a cow to dispose of and he requires it, he takes it. If he does not require it, I am at liberty to dispose of it to any one that I can sell it to.

9128. When he takes it, how do you settle about the price?-It generally goes into my account.

[Page 221]

9129. But who fixes the price that is put upon it?-I do. I ask him if he will give me so much for it, and if I can get a better price elsewhere I can sell it there.

9130. Did you ever sell a cow to anybody else than Mr. Henderson?-Yes. I have not sold cows, but I have sold young stots. About three years ago I sold three young stots- one to Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, and another to a man who came round; I don't know his name.

9131. Did not Mr. Henderson want these?-No. He engaged for one, and then when the man came about asking if he could get beasts to buy, Mr. Henderson told him to call upon us for them.

9132. Did Mr. Leask and the other man pay the money down to you for the beasts they bought?-Yes; it was sent from Lerwick to me.

9133. Were you due rent to Mr. Henderson at that time, or any account for goods?-Perhaps I was; it was very seldom that I was not due him an account.

9134. Why was that?-Because the fishing often did not turn out well.

9135. Did you ever go to any one except Mr. Henderson for your goods since you went to live at Burravoe?-If Mr. Henderson did not have what we wanted, then we would go to another for it.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ANDREW BLANCE, examined.

9136. Are you a fisherman, living at Burravoe?-Yes. I am a fisherman, but part of my time has been employed in the seal and whale fishing.

9137. Have you any land at Burravoe?-Yes, I occupy some land there under Mr. M'Queen.

9138. Have you ever been at the summer fishing?-Yes; I was at the ling fishing for two years, one year for Mr. William Williamson, who has lately left Ulsta, and the other year for Mr. Henderson.

9139. When you were at Ulsta did you run an account for what you wanted from Mr. Williamson?-Yes, a small account. If he had any small things that I wanted, and if I saw that I could get them a bargain, I took them from him.

9140. That account was settled at the end of the year?-Yes.

9141. And you got the other things you wanted at Burravoe or Lerwick, or wherever you liked?-Yes.

9142. Where did you get most of your goods?-At Lerwick.

9143. Did you find it more profitable to get them there?-I don't know that it was more profitable; but for a long time the most of my accounts have been in Lerwick.

9144. How often have you been at the seal and whale fishing?-I have been there every year for, I think, the last fifteen or fourteen years.

9145. Is that the reason why most of your accounts are in Lerwick?-I suppose it is.

9146. It is handier for you to have them there when you go to the whale fishing?-Yes.

9147. What agent do you generally engage with for that fishing?- Messrs. Hay & Co. I have always engaged through them, except one season when I was engaged for six weeks by Mr. Leask. That was for the sealing voyage in 1867.

9148. When do you generally go to Lerwick to engage for the whaling?-About the end of February or beginning of March.

9149. Do you go straight to Messrs. Hay's office and tell them you want an engagement?-No, I don't go straight there; but I have always found them very favourable towards me, and therefore I have always been inclined to go out from them.

9150. Do you get your outfit supplied there?-Yes, if I require it.

9151. Do you require a new outfit for the whaling every year?- We always require something new.

9152. Do you also require supplies for your family while you are away at the fishing, such as meal, tea, flour, and things of that sort, and clothing?-Yes.

9153. Where do you keep your account for these things?-With Messrs. Hay & Co.

9154. You always get an advance paid down to you when you are first engaged?-Yes; we get our first month's advance, and then we get a half-pay ticket.

9155. Do you always get a half-pay ticket?-Yes, those who require it.

9156. But do you always get it?-Yes; I have got it ever since it came up. I think it is only four or five years since it came to be used in Shetland.

9157. Were there no allotment tickets in use before four or five years ago?-No, not in Shetland. I never saw them before that time.

9158. Do you leave your allotment ticket with your wife?-We can leave it with any one we choose. I have generally left it with Messrs. Hay.

9159. Did you write anything upon it when you left it with them?-No.

9160. Is the allotment ticket an order to pay to you?-Yes, or to any name which is signed on it.

9161. Was it generally taken in your own name?-I had to mention the name of some person to be filled into the note, and the name of any person that I wanted to draw the money was signed there.

9162. What name did you generally give to be entered in the note?-I forget; but I think the name of Mr. William Robertson, in Messrs. Hay's shop, has been upon it.

9163. Was that done last year?-Yes.

9164. Was his name on it in 1870 also?-I cannot exactly say.

9165. But last year you know that it was?-Yes.

9166. And he was to draw the money on your half-pay allotment ticket?-Yes; he has the ticket, and while he keeps it he knows that no person can be drawing the money. They know that the money is lying, but I don't think Mr. Robertson has drawn the halfpay for me ever since the system commenced.

9167. Was the purpose of giving the allotment ticket to Mr. Robertson, that Messrs. Hay might give your family credit for goods in your absence; or was it a sort of security?-It was a sort of security; but I had no fear about them providing for my family, even although they had not got the ticket.

9168. You think they would have made the advances at any rate?-Yes. They never refused either goods or money.

9169. But still the allotment ticket was a sort of security to them?-Yes.

9170. When you return from your voyage do you generally go straight home or do you take your wages at Lerwick?-I take my wages at Lerwick.

9171. Before you come home?-Yes, if possible.

9172. Do you go up and settle before the shipping-master or superintendent?-Yes, I must do that.

9173. That did not use to be done at Lerwick?-It did not.

9174. Why has it been done lately?-I don't know.

9175. Was it not because it was not easy to get the Shetland men to wait for a settlement-they were so anxious to get home?- Perhaps it was. I and several others have to go to the North Isles and it is not every day we can get there. Staying one day in Lerwick might make us stay half a dozen, or perhaps a dozen, days; and therefore if we see a chance to get home whenever we land we are glad to take it.

9176. Then you go back when you find it convenient?-Yes.

9177. And you go before Mr. Gatherer the superintendent, and receive your wages in cash?-Yes; but many a time we have the chance of getting our money before we leave Lerwick if we could only wait another day.

9178. When you have an account standing in Messrs. Hay's books, how do you settle it?-We go back to the shop from the shipping office and pay the money.

[Page 222]

9179. How long has that been done?-I suppose for the last four or five years.

9180. Before that, you had a settlement at the office, and only got the balance in cash?-Yes.

9181. Is there any deduction made now from the cash you receive at the superintendent's office?-Nothing except the advance of our first month's wages, and the amount drawn under allotment tickets.

9182. But when you give an allotment ticket in the way you have mentioned, how do you do: do you get your half-pay handed over to you in cash?-Yes, if it is not drawn.

9183. Is it sometimes drawn?-No; my half-pay has not been drawn, so far as I recollect. [Produces four accounts of wages.]

9184. Who is William Manson, agent for master?-He is Messrs. Hay's clerk.

9185. The only deduction here is for stores in the ship, and your advance, and the fees?-That is all.

9186. Then in that year, 1870, you got the balance of £16, 3s. 6d. paid to you?-Yes.

9187. What was the amount of your account at Hay & Co.'s?-I don't remember in that year.

9188. Here [showing] is your account for 1871 when you had a balance of £19, 2s. to receive: do you remember the amount of your account, that year?-I do not.

9189. How much ready cash did you bring home with you when you had settled on 25th July?-I am not quite sure, but I think it was about £16.

9190. Then your account for the season would only be about £3?- That was all.

9191. Would that be the whole of the supplies you got for your family that year?-Yes; it was short voyage.

9192. Had you also a short and a very successful voyage last year?-Yes.

9193. You have not got your final payment of oil-money for 1871?-No.

9194. Have you got it for 1870?-Yes.

9195. Was that settled for before the superintendent, Mr. Gatherer?-Yes, it was paid at the custom-house. I think I got an account of wages for that too, but I could not say exactly. The oil on which the money was paid was 42 tons. The first payment of oil-money was upon 150 tons, making 192 altogether.

9196. Was the whole of that paid at the custom house?-Yes.

9197. Are you quite sure about that?-I am sure enough.

9198. And are you sure you got an account of the second payment of oil-money, although you have not got it now?-I am not sure about that. I think I got an account of wages for that too but I cannot say.

9199. How did you manage to keep the accounts of wages you have produced, when you did not keep the account for the last payment of oil-money?-Because I got these accounts of wages when I was going home, but at the time when I got the account for the last payment I was going away.

9200. Is your last payment of oil-money generally made to you when you are shipping in the following year?-I never get it until I am going away next year, and therefore it is easy to see how I may have lost the papers which I got then.

9201. Have you any accounts running with Messrs. Hay between the end of one whaling voyage and the beginning of another?- Very often I have. If I require anything I send to Messrs. Hay for it, or to any other man in Lerwick.

9202. Do you also get advances of cash from them when you want them?-Yes.

9203. Do you generally settle with Messrs. Hay at the time when you are engaged for the next year's voyage?-No. I settle with them at the time when I get paid.

9204. But you don't get your second payment of oil-money until you are going away for a new voyage?-I get it whenever it comes; but I told you that last year I did not get it until I was going away.

9205. Did that never happen before?-It has happened before.

9206. You have produced a receipt granted by you to Mr. Leask for £1, 5s. 3d. in 1867: how does that receipt happen to be in your possession?-That was a short voyage, only six weeks, in the 'Polynia' of Dundee and there were no half-pay tickets. I got an advance from him, and when I paid the money again at the end of the voyage the receipt was handed back to me.

9207. Was that advance given to you in cash?-No, I got my first month's advance in cash, and then I got that advance in goods.

9208. Was that for your own outfit, or for your family?-I think it was for my own outfit.

9209. Have you got payments of that kind frequently from the agents who have engaged you?-No; that was the only one.

9210. Did you get your first month's advance in addition to this?- Yes.

9211. Did you get it in cash or in goods?-I got it in a line to be cashed a day or two after we sailed. I gave the line to Mr. Leask's man, and got the principal part of it in money. Then they drew the money from the shipowner after I left.

9212. You took your first month's advance partly in money and partly in goods?-Yes, I think that was the way of it.

9213. And you got £1, 5s. 3d. in goods in addition to that?-Yes.

9214. Why did you want that amount of goods?-I have wanted three times that amount, according to circumstances. For one voyage I would require that amount, if I had not a good stock.

9215. Why did you not get the whole of your first month's advance in goods when you say you were requiring them?-Perhaps I was requiring money for some other purpose. I had perhaps to send part of it home.

9216. Why did you not take the whole of your month's advance in goods, and then get that advance in cash?-Perhaps I got more than that in cash. That advance was only 25s., and I had £2, 10s. per month.

9217. Did you get the whole payment of your wages for that voyage before you left?-Yes, except the second payment of oil-money. That second payment is made after the oil is boiled. There is a calculation made when we come home with regard to the whole amount of oil that is in the ship, and when we arrive we are paid a proportion of that. Then, when the oil is boiled; they see what it actually amounts to and we are paid the balance of our oil-money.

9218. Then on this voyage in 1867, which you made for Mr. Leask, you were advanced at sailing the whole amount of your wages and the first payment your oil-money?-Yes.

9219. And all that you had to get afterwards was your last payment of oil-money?-Yes.

9220. You got the whole of the amount in cash or goods?-Yes.

9221. But mostly in goods?-I could not say that it was mostly in goods, because, except the £1, 5s. 3d. and perhaps 10s. of my first month's advance I do not think I got more goods from them. I am not sure; about that; but I cannot say that I got more.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.

9222. You hold some land now from Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe?- Yes.

9223. Do you fish for Mr. Henderson?-No; I fish for Mr. Adie at the Out Skerries.

9224. Were you formerly a tenant on the Lunna estate?-Yes. I left it seven years ago because Sheriff Bell's tenantry there were handed over to Mr. Robertson, and were bound to fish for him. He and I had disputed at one time, and I was not very well satisfied about fishing for him. I was paying my land rent to the Sheriff, and I thought that when a man was [Page 223] paying his land rent he ought to have freedom to fish to the best advantage for himself that he could.

9225. Where did you engage to fish that season?-At the Skerries, to Mr. Adie.

9226. You thought you could make a better thing of it by fishing for Mr. Adie, and you went to him?-Yes.

9227. What happened in consequence of that?-Nothing happened, except that I must either be bound to fish for Mr. Robertson or leave the property.

9228. Were you told that you must leave the property?-Yes; the Sheriff himself told me that.

9229. Was Mr. Robertson his factor or his tacksman?-His tacksman.

9230. To whom did you pay your rent at Lunna?-To Mr. Robertson when he came to be tacksman, but the Sheriff before that.

9231. Who first told you that you were to leave your ground at Lunna?-The Sheriff himself.

9232. When was that?-The year before I left. That was nine years ago.

9233. Was that when you had first engaged with Mr. Adie?-No. I fished for two years for Mr. Robertson after that, after I removed to Yell.

9234. Then why did you leave Lunna? I thought you told me it was because you engaged with Mr. Adie that you were turned out of your ground there?-No; it was not because I engaged with Mr. Adie. It was because I would not fish for Mr. Robertson.

9235. Why did you fish for Mr. Robertson for two years after that, although you were not bound?-We were fishing then at our own freedom.

9236. Were you asked to sign any obligation to fish for Mr. Robertson?-No.

9237. How did you intimate that you were not going to be bound to fish for him? Had you a conversation with Mr. Bell on the subject?-Yes. At the time when Mr. Bell's tenants were handed over to Mr. Robertson, I was in the merchant service; but they made a statement then that the tenants were to be bound to fish for him.

9238. Who made the statement?-Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson made it after I came home. For the last ten years I have been at the ling fishing. The first winter I came home I caught some cod, small and big, and I salted them, and went down to Lerwick and sold them to Messrs. Hay. Mr. Robertson got word of that, and got an account from Messrs. Hay of the cod that I had sold. He handed that to the Sheriff, who came to Lunnasting; and I was called up and found fault with for not selling the fish to Mr. Robertson as tacksman. He asked me my reason for that; and I said that I had signed no agreement to fish for him; that I was due him nothing; and that I did not see why I could not sell my fish to any man I liked. Bell said very little to that; but he gave me to understand that after that I was either to leave the property, or to pay £1 of a fine if I sold my fish to any other person.

9239. Was that a written notice?-Yes.

9240. Have you got it now?-No, I have lost it.

9241. Did you pay the fine?-Yes.

9242. Did you not try to get off with it?-No.

9243. Did you think you were legally bound to pay it?-No; and that was the reason why I would not stay upon his property. If I could have got a 'downsitting' handy that suited me at the time, I would not have paid it, because I did not think it right.

9244. Did you fish for Mr. Robertson after that?-Yes, for two years.

9245. How did you happen to fish for him?-We just made a kind of agreement with him, first for two years; but still we were not satisfied, and as we did not wish to be bound to fish for him, we stopped.

9246. Did anything more pass between you and Mr. Robertson or Mr. Bell, about leaving the ground or about being bound to fish?- No.

9247. Then how did you come at last to leave Lunna? Did you give them notice that you were going, or did they give you notice to quit?-I was on the look-out after that for some other place, because I was determined, after paying that £1, which I was not due to shift to a convenient place at the first opportunity.

9248. You got a place at Burravoe; and since then have you been at liberty to fish for any person you pleased?-Yes.

9249. Do you get your supplies at Mr. Adie's store at Skerries?- Yes; our sea stock, and all that we require during the fishing season

9250. When you are at home, where do you get your supplies?- Sometimes from Lerwick, and sometimes we get something from Mr. Adie when we settle.

9251. Do you bring home supplies with you from Skerries?-No, we never settle at Skerries; we settle at Voe in Mr. Adie's office.

9252. Have you an account at Voe as well as at Skerries?-Yes. Our Skerries account for the fishing season is always handed over to Voe, and it is all settled there.

9253. Do you sometimes bring a large supply of provisions home from Voe?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. When we think we can make a better of it, we will send to Lerwick for them.

9254. Have you not to bring them a good bit by land when you get them from Voe?-Yes.

9255. Why do you take the trouble to carry your supplies so far as that?-We have no particular reason for it, only we are there at any rate, and we can get them there as good a bargain as we can get them in Lerwick and nearer us, and it saves us the freight.

9256. How often do you go to Voe in the course the year?-Once a year.

9257. When you go there to settle, are you asked to take some goods home with you?-Not at all, unless we require them ourselves.

9258. Of course you are not obliged to do it unless you like; but don't they ask you whether you want any goods?-Yes, they will do that. Sometimes Mr. Adie's shop people will ask if we are requiring anything.

9259. Is that before you settle or afterwards?-It is generally after we have settled.

9260. Does that supply go into the next year's account?-If we are requiring the cash we have got, either for paying the land-master or any other purpose, they will let the goods stand until next account.

9261. But sometimes you got goods before settlement, and they went into the past year's account if you did not want the cash?- No. Since we fished for Mr. Adie, there were no goods we got at that time which went into the past year's account. They always went into the rising year's account, unless they were paid for in cash.

9262. Sometimes you paid them in cash?-Yes.

9263. And in that case they would not enter any account?-No. I generally pay all my goods with cash, so far as I can.

9264. Do you find them cheaper when they are paid for in that way?-Yes.

9265. And that is what you do generally when you go to Lerwick?-Yes.

9266. Have you generally had a balance to get from Mr. Adie at the end of the year since you fished for him?-Yes, always.

9267. Could you get the same goods that you get at Voe as cheap nearer home, and as good?-I cannot say.

9268. Is there any difference in quality between Mr. Adie's goods and those you get at Burravoe or at Lerwick?-I cannot say that there is. There is often a great difference in the quality of goods, even although they are sold at one price, and as being the same quality.

9269. Where have you found that?-I have bought tea on different occasions at one place, and at the same price, and have found differences in the quality. I don't think that was due so much to the people selling it, as to the chest decaying. I have sometimes found it good and sometimes bad in every place I have had it from.

9270. Do you take goods from Mr. Henderson's shop at Burravoe?-I have had very few goods from him. I never had any meal or tea from him. All I have got has been a few nails or anything I required for my boats.

[Page 224]

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ARTHUR ANDERSON, examined.

9271. You are a fisherman at Burravoe, on Mr. M'Queen's property?-I am.

9272. Were you formerly a tenant and fisherman at Lunna?-Yes. I was not very long a tenant, but I was a fisherman. I left it 7 years ago at Martinmas, at the same time as Johnston.

9273. Had you been bound there to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I did fish for him; but while I was a young man, and unmarried, they could not compel me.

9274. Had you some land there afterwards?-Yes. I had some for two years before I left.

9275. Were you told then that you were bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes. The Sheriff told me that at the same time that he told Johnston.

9276. Were you both together at the time?-No.

9277. Had you both been sent for at the same time?-There was a meeting in a place near Lunna, and the whole tenantry were told that they were to be under one control, and to fish for Mr. Robertson. I think that meeting was held in the schoolroom. I think both Sheriff Bell and Mr. Robertson were present.

9278. Did Mr. Bell tell you that he expected you all to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.

9279. What else did he say?-I was not very old then, and I don't remember.

9280. Why did you leave Lunna?-I was in a double family, and I thought the place I was in was too small for the whole of us; therefore I thought I would try to look out for some place in which to live.

9281. You did not leave it because you wanted your freedom?- Not altogether.

9282. Had you been fined for selling your fish anywhere else?- No.

9283. Do you know any other man in Lunna who was fined for that except Johnston?-I don't remember of any.

9284. Who do you fish for now?-For Mr. Adie, the same as Johnston does.

9285. Do you deal in the same way as he described?-Yes.

9286. How do you get your supplies, for your family?-Sometimes Mr. Adie will send us meal for our families from Aberdeen or from Leith, and we will pay the freight. It is not easy for him to send it to us from his place at Voe, but he will send it from these other places if we ask him.

9287. Do these supplies go to your account?-Yes.

9288. Do you ever get supplies anywhere else?-Sometimes in Skerries, where we fish.

9289. These go into the same account, and are settled for at Voe?-Yes.

9290. Do you bring goods from Voe at settling time when you want them?-We always bring something.

9291. Are you asked if you want goods when you go there to settle?-Yes; they will ask us if we desire anything.

9292. But you need not take them unless you like?-No.

9293. Do you get any goods at Burravoe?-Not very much. We don't run very large accounts there.

9294. Mr. Henderson's shop is not very far from where you live?-It is not very far.

9295. Would it not be handier for you to get your goods there?- We don't run very large accounts with him. I might get my goods from him if I was fishing for him, but when I am not putting any fish or any produce his way I don't ask anything.

9296. Could you not get the money for your fish, and buy your goods where it was most convenient for you?-We might.

9297. Did you never think of doing that?-No.

9298. Why?-I don't know.

9299. Do you think Mr. Henderson will charge higher prices from those who do not fish for him?-I cannot say.

9300. You never were afraid of that?-No.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT ROBERTSON, examined.

9301. You are a fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe on Mr. M'Queen's property?-I am.

9302. You are an elder of the Established Church in South Yell parish?-Yes.

9303. How long have you been at Hamnavoe?-All my life. I am 56 years of age, and I was born on the property.

9304. Were you formerly bound to fish to the tacksman on the property?-No; I have had liberty all my time to fish for any one I liked, except for three years, when my landlord, the late Mr. Robert Bruce, required us to fish for him. He succeeded to the property about 1853, and it was in 1857 or 1858 that he required our services.

9305. You have been a skipper for a number of years?-For two years, but not for the last two years. I was two years at the whale fishing in 1868 and 1869. In 1868 I engaged with Messrs. Hay, and in 1869 I engaged with Mr. George Reid Tait. I got my first month's advance laid down at the custom-house, and when I came back I got the rest at the custom-house. If I was due a small thing to the agent I went to him and paid it.

9306. Did you get an outfit?-Only a small thing. I had some things myself, and it was only a few things that I required from the agents. Anything that I required for my family I got from Robertson & Co. I have had an account with them for a long time. I have had as much as £7, 3s. from them in a year.

9307. Why did you deal with them?-I found them to be good men. They always try to advance people as far as they can, and especially people who strive to pay them back again.

9308. Have you ever fished in the ling fishing?-Yes; I have been there for the last two years. The year before last I fished for Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, and last year I fished for William Jack Williamson at Ulsta.

9309. Did you run accounts with them?-Very little.

9310. Was that because you dealt with R. & C. Robertson?-Yes.

9311. Do most of the men deal with the merchants they fish for?- They do, because they have no money of their own, and they require their fishing to pay for what they get.

9312. Do they get their out-takes on credit?-Yes, until the fishing is done, and then they clear it off. I had no dealings with these two merchants except for my living in the summer time-meal and tea and sugar.

9313. Were these for your company account?-Yes.

9314. Do you think you get your supplies cheaper from R. & C. Robertson than you would get them from the merchants you fish for?-I think so.

9315. And better, or at least as good?-Yes. If I send to Messrs. Robertson for a sack of meal, I get it at the Lerwick price, with the addition of the freight, but when the meal comes to a merchant in the North Isles, he has to take a little profit on it besides.

9316. Are any of the merchants here supplied with their meal from R. & C. Robertson?-I cannot say.

9317. Because if they are not they might possibly get their supplies from the south, and land them here cheap as Messrs. Robertson can land them at Lerwick?-They might. I believe Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, fetches his meal from the south occasionally.

9318. And as easily as the Robertsons can fetch it to Lerwick?- Yes; he has just the freight between Lerwick and Burravoe to pay.

9319. But he might bring it by a sailing vessel from Aberdeen?- He might, but it always comes by the steamer.

9320. Do you know as a fact that the price at Lerwick is less than the price you would be charged meal at Burravoe?-It is a little less.

9321. Do you also find that the quality of the meal better there?- It is sometimes as good in Lerwick at a price of 2s., or 2s. 6d., or 3s. cheaper at Burravoe than it is in the North Isles. I have bought flour lately from [Page 225] Messrs. Robertson at 16s. or 18s. a boll, and have bought it as low as 14s. 6d.

9322. Have you bought any meal during the last year?-No; I did not require it.

9323. But before that you found a difference of 2s. on the flour, and 3s. or 4s. on the sack of meal?-Yes.

9324. Have you bought provisions or supplies from Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, lately?-Not for a long time. Perhaps I might buy a 1/4 lb. of tea or something like that, if I was at his door; but I paid for it then, and there was no account.

9325. You say you have been quite free to fish for any one you pleased except during three years: did Mr. M'Queen ever forbid you to fish for Mr. Henderson?-Once. I think that was about three years ago; but he (Mr. M'Queen) came to see that that would not do and it was never more spoken of.

9326. Did you fish that year for Mr. Henderson?-No. I went to Greenland; but in the following year I fished for him.

9327. Did you go to Greenland because Mr. M'Queen asked you to do so?-It was almost because of him telling me not to fish for Mr. Henderson.

9328. But you did not like to be interfered with?-No. If I paid my rent to my landlord at the end of the season, I liked to be at liberty to go where I pleased. With regard to the winter fishing, it does not matter much, because they will pay ready money for it whenever we bring in the fish.

9329. Don't you think it would be better if the people here were paid ready money for everything, instead of running such long accounts, and settling only once year?-It might, but I don't know how things would go then. If we were to pay ready money for everything that we got from the merchants, it might not come to answer very well.

9330. Why is that?-Because if I were taking anything to a merchant to sell, such as hosiery, and asking ready money for it, I would not get so much as if I were to let the price lie in his hands for some time.

9331. But don't you think the merchant would sell his goods cheaper to you if you were paying him in ready money?-I believe he would do that.

9332. Don't you think the people would manage their affairs better if they had the money in their own hands?-I think so; because if a man does a day's work, and is not paid for it until the end of five or six months, he is not likely to do so well with it as if the money was paid down to him at once and he could go where he liked with it, to make the best bargain for himself in buying things.

9333. Is it not a great trouble to keep in mind all the things that you have got to your credit-a day's work now, and your fish again, and a beast, perhaps which you have sold, and then to recollect all the outtakes you have had besides?-Yes. I have sold few beasts now for several years, but I always got the money paid down to me on the day when I sold them.

9334. You think that is handier than getting them put down into an account?-Yes.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK POLE, examined.

9335. Are you a partner of the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I am not a partner.

9336. Are you the manager at Greenbank?-Yes.

9337. You were cited to bring some books?-I was and I have brought the only book which can give any information as to our intromissions with fishermen. Our principal books are kept at Mossbank, because that is the head-quarters of the firm.

9338. What books do you keep at Greenbank?-We only keep a ledger into which the account of each fisherman who has one is entered.

9339. Are there some fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank who do not open accounts?-I don't know if there are any; there may be one or two.

9340. In that account at Greenbank do you enter on the one side all the out-takes of the fishermen, and on the other the sums which are due to them for fish or any other matters?-No. The ledger I have with me shows merely the shop accounts of the fishermen. The ledger you refer to is kept at Mossbank.

9341. Are all the balances made at Mossbank?-Yes.

9342. Do the men go there for settlement?-No, they settle at Greenbank; but my brother settles with them, and he brings the book over with him and takes it back with him when he goes to Mossbank again.

9343. What quantity of fish did you sell from Greenbank last year?-About 54 tons of dry fish.

9344. What number of boats had you engaged to produce that quantity?-We had 14 boats altogether. One boat had three men fishing in it, another had four, and the rest had six apiece.

9345. Then the only book you have at Greenbank the ledger containing the accounts for shop goods furnished to your men?- That is the only book we keep there.

9346. Is there a woman's book besides?-No; we don't keep a woman's book at Greenbank.

9347. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes, we do; and we enter it in the kelp-book by itself.

9348. Is not that a sort of woman's book?-No.

9349. Is it not women mostly whom you employ at that?-It is women mostly, indeed altogether, who are employed in making the kelp at Greenbank.

9350. What quantity of kelp did you sell last year?-I think only about nine tons.

9351. What price do you allow to women for kelp?-We have two prices for kelp: 4s. in goods, and 3s. 6d. in cash.

9352. Is that a lower price than on the mainland?-I am not aware that it is, but I cannot speak as to that.

9353. Then, of course, you have a fish-book?-It is kept at Mossbank.

9354. How do your factors mark down the fish at landing?-There is a book kept at Gloup, which is the station in summer, and the factor marks the fish there. Then, as soon as the season is over, the amount is added up and sent to Mossbank to be entered in the fish-book.

9355. It is merely the amount of fish that is added up in the book at Gloup?-Yes.

9356. And the balance is made in a separate book at Mossbank?- Yes; in a ledger by itself, which is kept there.

9357. In that book the total goods supplied at Greenbank are entered in a slump sum?-Yes. The fishermen keep their shop account in one part of our business premises, and their slump account, as it were, in another part.

9358. That is to say, that at Greenbank they check their shop account?-Yes.

9359. Do they come to check it generally themselves, or do they have pass-books?-Some of them get pass-books, and others do not.

9360. If they have no pass-book, how do they check it?-I suppose they check it from their own memory.

9361. Do they come for that purpose before settling time?-No; they generally come about settling time.

9362. Do they not settle at Mossbank?-No; we settle with all our Greenbank fishermen at Greenbank.

9363. Are your books brought from Mossbank for that purpose?- Yes. As I said before, the principal of our business brings them along with him when he comes to settle with the men, and he takes them back with him when he goes back.

9364. Is it at that time that the totals of the shop accounts at Greenbank are entered into the principal ledger?-Yes; and the fisherman gets a note of the amount of his account from me. He settles with me for that, and takes the note in to my brother, who settles the whole account.

9365. Have you also a day-book at Greenbank?-Yes.

[Page 226]

9366. Is that for cash transactions, or do the whole of your transactions first pass into it before being carried into the ledger?-Almost all our transactions pass through it.

9367. What transactions do not pass through it?-If I happened to be posting my ledger at the time when a person was getting anything to be marked down, I might mark it straight into the ledger without putting it through the day-book, in order to save the trouble of posting.

9368. Do most of the fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank and Gloup reside within a short distance of these places?-No; they are scattered over the parish of North Yell, and a few of them are in this parish.

9369. Your brother, when examined at Brae, mentioned the properties which belonged to the members of the firm, and of which he was tacksman, but I forget whether he mentioned if there were any properties of which members of the firm are tacksmen: are there any such?-My brother is tacksman of Mr. Walker's property in North Yell, and Pole, Hoseason, Co. are factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell, also. I think the number of tenants on Mr. Walker's estate might be fourteen, and the number on George Hoseason's may be nine or ten.

9370. Are these men bound to fish to you by the terms on which they hold their land?-They are not bound by any written or special engagement, but it is understood that they will fish to us, and most of them do so.

9371. Are they bound to fish for you in the Faroe fishing?-No; we have no Faroe fishing in connection with Greenbank at all.

9372. But you have at Mossbank?-Yes.

9373. If one of these men were to go to the Faroe fishing, would you consider yourself entitled to the first offer of his services in one of your smacks?-We would.

9374. Then there is an understanding to that effect?-It is understood that these men will fish to us if we require them.

9375. In point of fact, do any men on these properties in North Yell engage for the Faroe fishing with any other merchants?- There are very few, if who go from North Yell to the Faroe fishing now. It is principally young men who go there. I cannot at this moment recollect any one who goes to Faroe from the north district.

9376. The day-book and ledger and fish-book are, I understand, the only books which are used at Greenbank and Gloup?-At Gloup we have a sort of wastebook, in which any goods are entered which are bought by anybody during the season when we have goods there.

9377. But that is merely for the purpose of being carried into the permanent ledger at Greenbank or at Mossbank?-At Greenbank. These accounts, of course, are settled for at Gloup before the men leave there.

9378. Are these company accounts?-Some are company accounts and some are private accounts.

9379. Can a man have his private supplies at Gloup while he is residing there as well as his company supplies?-Yes.

9380. Have you a publican's licence for the premises at Greenbank?-No; we have a certificate for getting a licence if we wish to take it out, but we have not taken it out for years. I don't care for selling liquor, and therefore I do not take it out.

9381. How do the men get supplies of that kind: is there a public-house in the district?-No.

9382. Therefore they must buy in a stock of spirits when they want them?-I suppose so; but they very temperate class altogether. I don't think they use much liquor.

9383. Do they not require it at the station and when they are going to fish?-At the station we allowed to keep a small quantity of liquor, with which to supply our fishermen during the season.

9384. Is that under the Excise regulations?-I understand it is. It is my brother who takes charge of these matters; but I understand the Excise permit us to have a small quantity, for the purpose of supplying our fishermen only.

9385. Are your supplies of provisions and soft goods at Greenbank furnished from Mossbank, or do you get them direct from the wholesale merchants?-Generally we get them direct from the wholesale merchants.

9386. Are they landed in Yell?-Yes.

9387. But I suppose they are invoiced to the firm at Mossbank?- Yes.

9388. From whom do you get your principal supplies of meal and flour?-I should prefer to give the names privately. [Writes the names of two firms.]

9389. I see in your ledger the account of Lawrence Danielson, Houlland: is that a fisherman?-Yes.

9390. I observe that cash is sometimes entered in his account: does he come to you when he wants a small advance of cash for any immediate need?-Yes.

9391. Are applications of that kind common, or does a man generally get on without cash until settlement?-Occasionally a man may require a little advance in cash, but, as a general rule, any cash which we give out is at the time when the fishermen settle. After man has settled his account, he perhaps does not have as much money as he requires, and he may wish small advance, and it is generally given to him. He may also get a trifle occasionally at other times in the season, but it is generally about that time that the bulk of advances in cash are made.

9392. Do you square off your accounts in the ledger after settlement?-No; before the settlement.

9393. Then the entry here on November 27th, 'By Mossbank ledger, so much,' means what?-It means that the account there was transferred to the Mossbank ledger.

9394. And that indicates the amount which the man was entitled to receive in cash, unless there was something standing against him in the Mossbank ledger as well?-Certainly; there might be a balance against him there.

9395. 'By amount of Gloup account, £1, 13s: 11d.:' was that entirely for his supplies at Gloup during the fishing season?-That was for the amount of his private account at Gloup; and that account, as I have said, is settled between him and our factor at Gloup, and is entered here.

9396. I see entries of meal, 1s. 5d. and 5s. 8d.: what quantity of meal would that be which is charged 5s. 8d.?-It would be a lispund, or four pecks.

9397. What is the quantity charged 1s. 5d.?-One peck, or eight lbs.

9398. Was that the selling price of your meal last summer?-Yes, by the peck.

9399. Do you charge less when a larger quantity is taken?-Yes; we charge sometimes 1s. or 1s. 3d. and sometimes as much as 2s. less per boll. The price per boll would be somewhere about 25s. or 26s. when the lispund was at 5s. 8d.

9400. What did you sell meal at per boll last summer?-It is very rarely that I sell bolls at Greenbank. Generally when a quantity of that kind is required, we order it direct from the south, and it is charged to the men at Mossbank.

9401. Do you purchase hosiery at Greenbank?-We do very little in that way.

9402. I see one woman credited in the ledger with shawl: is that an exceptional transaction?-Yes, most exceptional transaction. We used to do a good deal in hosiery, but we found it was a very bad speculation, and so we gave it up. We were losing money by it every year: we would have been in the debtors' prison, I suppose, if we had continued to go on with that trade.

9403. Are the women's accounts for kelp kept in the same book?-Yes; if a woman is to be credited with kelp it is entered there.

9404. Do you purchase wool?-No; but we have some sheep: at least I had the management of some sheep this season, and I sold the wool for behoof of the party who owned the sheep.

[Page 227]

9405. When you employ people to work for you, are they paid at the time, or at the settlement?-We sometimes pay them at the time, and sometimes at settlement.

9406. Are people employed in curing fish always paid at settlement?-Not wholly. We have a class of hands who are paid by beach fees, and another class whom we employ as day labourers, and we pay these either daily, weekly, or monthly, or whenever they like.

9407. Or at settlement, if they have an account?-Not necessarily. Some of them may have an account, and yet be paid daily.

9408. I see in the ledger that one woman is credited on July 1st, 'By work in full, 7s. 7d.,' and the account is made up: that work, I suppose, only went into the account. What kind of work would it be?-It was dressing worsted.

9409. Then, on January 14, there is, 'By work, 3s. 2d.:' was that dressing worsted also?-So far as I recollect, it was.

9410. I see here a special entry, 'By dressing, 3s. 9d?'-That is the same thing only differently expressed. That woman dresses any little worsted we may buy.

9411. Was that hosiery goods?-No; it was the worsted itself, the yarn.

9412. Do you buy the yarn ready made, or do you give the wool out to be spun?-We buy it ready spun and dress it, and send it south.

9413. You don't get it made up?-We do not.

9414. But the dressing here is paid for on the same principle of accounting which you adopt in your transactions with the fishermen?-Just in the same way.

9415. And you just settle for it at the end of the year?-Not at the end of the year; just whenever the woman likes.

9416. I see that this balance has been made at March 31, and another balance is made in April, and another in July?-Yes.

9417. Are the sales of fish transacted by you at Greenbank, or through the firm at Mossbank?-Through the firm at Mossbank entirely.

9418. Are you generally acquainted with the transactions in that department?-No. I may happen to know occasionally about some things; but I don't know particularly, as a general rule.

9419. Do you know the price at which the fish were sold last year?-I have an idea about what it was, but I could not say the exact figure.

9420. Do you know to whom they were sold? Were any of them sent to Spain?-I am not aware that any were sent to Spain. I don't think there were any sent abroad at all. I think they were all sold in Scotland and Shetland.

9421. Who buys from you in Shetland?-Mr. Joseph Leask at Lerwick; he is a very large fishbuyer.

9422. Why do you not sell your fish direct to the south?-I suppose we find it to be an advantage to sell to him. The Greenbank fish were all sold to him last year, and I believe some were sold from Mossbank too, but I could not say the exact amount.

9423. Can you explain how the current price of the season is ascertained, according to which you settle with your fishermen?- I cannot explain it exactly; but I believe some of the curers may correspond with one another about what they consider to be a fair price.

9424. Did you sell last year at the same price as your neighbours, Spence & Co.?-I don't know.

9425. If there is a difference in the price obtained by two or three neighbouring firms for their fish, do you strike an average in order to deal with your fishermen, or how is it that the fishermen are settled with?-I am not aware that there is any average struck. I think, as a general rule, the fishermen are paid to the full extent of the highest price realized by the large curers.

9426. Suppose you were selling 10s. or £1 a ton cheaper than your nearest neighbours, in consequence perhaps of having to sell earlier, or when the market was in a depressed state?-Such it thing occurs sometimes.

9427. Would you in that case settle with your fishermen according to the price obtained by the other party?-Certainly.

9428. Is that an invariable rule?-In my experience it has been the rule.

9429. Is that because the fishermen are sure to find out who got the highest price and would be dissatisfied, or is it part of the understanding that it is the highest current price according to which they are to be paid?-I believe the fishermen generally understand that they are to be paid according to the highest price.

9430. Then if a merchant is specially fortunate and gets a price much higher than the ordinary prices of the year, does that regulate the whole prices throughout Shetland so far as the fishermen are concerned?-I should say not; but I think that is a thing that very rarely happens. I think the principal curers, so far as I know, get much about the same price for their fish. There may be a slight variation here and there, but it small.

9431. They will get pretty much the same, I fancy, if they sell in Shetland to one gentleman or two?-Yes; but I am not aware that they all do that.

9432. Do you ever sell any fish for exportation to Spain?-I cannot say that we have ever sold any for that purpose. No doubt some of the fish we have sold may have gone to Spain indirectly.

9433. But you have not sent them there on your own account?- No.

9434. I presume the bulk of the transactions at Greenbank are credit transactions, and enter the ledger?-No. We do a great deal in cash payments.

9435. Is that with fishermen?-In some cases with our own fishermen, and in other cases with other people. We do a considerable business across the counter for ready money. I should say that in our shop business we sell as much goods for cash and butter and eggs, and so forth, as we do for fish.

9436. Are these cash transactions, as they may be called, speaking generally, with the same parties, or with different parties from those whose names appear in the book as having got goods which are set against their fish?-In some cases they would be with the same parties, and in other cases with others. For example, it is generally women that we buy yarn from, and it is very often women who bring us eggs and butter.

9437. Do you settle the whole of these transactions at the time?- Yes, as a general rule.

9438. But these women may have an account which enters the women's book?-We keep no women's book.

9439. Then when a woman does deal with you that way, she settles her transactions at once?-Generally at once.

9440. When you sell a quarter lb. of tea, or a lispund of meal, or a bit of cotton over the counter in a ready money transaction, is the same price charged as if it were entering the book?-Exactly the same, in all cases.

9441. Does it not follow from that that your profit upon the transactions which enter the book and are settled for at the end of the year is much less than what you make upon the cash transactions?-If we were to make no bad debts, it would not be much less. It would be much the same.

9442. Would it not be less in this way, that you might turn your money over twice before these accounts were settled, and you would either have the interest for the year or you might make another profit?-True; but the rate of interest is so exceedingly small at present, that the money is worth scarcely anything at all.

9443. I suppose it is a consideration in that matter that if you lose the interest upon the money that is invested in goods, you gain by the interest upon the money that is not paid to the men until the end of the season?-There is not much gain there, because we have often to pay the fishermen their money some months before we receive it.

9444. When are your fish sales made?-Towards the end of September or beginning of October, and they are generally made on a three months bill.

9445. That is on a bill payable in January, and the [Page 228] men are settled with in December?-In the end of November or 1st of December.

9446. So that the men are paid a month before you receive the proceeds of your fish sales?-Yes, a month or two.

9447. In that way, therefore you do not stand upon an equality with the men in the matter of interest, but on all these credit sales of goods you are losing interest?-Looking at it in that way, that would be so.

9448. I should have thought it not unreasonable that you should have a discount for these cash payments: why have you not?-I believe the reason is, that there is a great difficulty in having two prices for your goods-I mean honestly.

9449. You think the people would complain?-Not only would the people complain, but I am afraid your own conscience would cry out sometimes.

9450. Why should your conscience cry out if you are really equalizing the two classes of buyers?-The buyer who does not pay until November has the advantage of having his money in hand, and of getting an advance made to him on credit; whereas the buyer who pays you in March or in April for the same goods which the other man does not pay for until November, gives you his money six or eight or ten months sooner, and you have the advantage of having the money in your pocket, and you could make of it, as the case may be: is not that so?-Yes. A discount might be taken off if we could decide upon a certain percentage to take off for cash; but I believe the reason we have never done anything in that way is, that if you once begin to make an alteration, there is a great difficulty in fixing your prices, and a difficulty in sticking to an exact rate. Perhaps you will allow me to illustrate what I mean. Suppose I go into a shop and ask for a cloth jacket, and the jacket is brought down. I am well acquainted with the price of these goods, but I have plenty of impudence, and I beat down the price until the seller consents to give me the jacket at 3s. less than he asked at first. Then my brother, who is a quiet man, goes in and asks for jacket exactly the same. Perhaps he gets five per cent. taken off, which would be 1s. 6d., and he pays cash for it. That would be 1s. 6d. of an advantage to me, and I consider that it would be unfair and dishonest to him.

9451. But you get out of that difficulty by raising the price a little to everybody?-We do not. We just price our goods at what we consider to be a living profit, and we do not sell them at less than that to anybody.

9452. Are not your prices fixed, in the first instance, at such a figure as you calculate would cover the risk of bad debts upon your credit transactions, and also the loss of interest upon the money?-I cannot say that they are. We try to make as few bad debts as possible, and I cannot say that the prices are fixed with a view to that at all.

9453. Are the goods invoiced to you at Greenbank from Mossbank?-They are all invoiced from Mossbank.

9454. At the cost price, or at the price at which you are to sell them?-At the retail price.

9455. Have you known many cases of fishermen leaving your employment and going to other merchants?-No; as a general rule, fishermen continue in our employment for a very long time. No doubt there exceptions.

9456. I suppose there is a difficulty sometimes in man changing because of its disarranging the boat's crew?-In some cases there is.

9457. Do you know of any cases in which single men have come to you from other employers within the last half-dozen years?-I cannot speak for the last half-dozen years. I can only speak particularly for two years.

9458. Within that time have you got many men coming to you from other merchants?-There have been a few.

9459. Have these men generally been clear of debt to their former employers when they came to you?-So far as I know, they have.

9460. They have not asked you to undertake, their debts, or to advance them money with which to pay their debts to their former employers?-No. I have no case of that kind in my mind at present.

9461. Does any arrangement exist between you and any other fish-merchant, to the effect that a man leaving the one merchant and seeking employment with the other shall have his debt cleared off by the new employer?-There is no such arrangement between us and any other employer.

9462. Do you know of any case in which that has been done?-I cannot say that I do. Such a thing might have occurred, but there is no case of that sort which has come within my own knowledge.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, THOMAS WILLIAMSON, examined.

9463. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Seafield?-I am. I have been there for a short time. I commenced with the fishing in 1871, and I commenced for myself there as a merchant on 20th May 1870.

9464. Where had you been before?-I was shopman for one year before to the man who had the place previously-Magnus Mouat.

9465. Before that where had you been?-In 1867 and 1868 I was in Robert Mouat's shop at Coningsburgh as his shopman, but he took charge of the shop chiefly himself. I was not quite two years there.

9466. I understand the men in that neighbourhood were under an obligation to fish to Mouat, who was the tacksman of the property?-I cannot say about that. I did not know anything about their private matters.

9467. Do you mean to say that you were shopman to Mouat for two years and did not know that?-I did not know their private affairs, whether they were bound or not. I saw the men fishing, but I could not say whether they were under an obligation to fish for him more than for any other one.

9468. Did you not know of any cases in which men were threatened or ejected for not fishing for him, or for selling their fish to other merchants?-I was not aware of that at the time I was there.

9469. Were the men's accounts with Mouat settled annually in the same way as they are in other places in Shetland?-Yes, during the time I was there.

9470. Had you anything to do with settling these accounts?-No; he settled with the men himself.

9471. Did you keep the books in which the goods taken from the shop were entered?-Yes; the daybook.

9472. Do you remember anything about the prices charged there?-They varied, just as they did at other places.

9473. Were you aware at the time that the prices charged in Mouat's shop were much higher than those at other places?- I cannot say that they were higher for a country shop.

9474. Were they dearer than are charged in this neighbourhood now?-I cannot say that they were for the groceries; but indeed they would require to have been dearer, because he had to take his goods overland at a heavy expense from Lerwick. It was pretty expensive keeping a horse and cart for that purpose, and taking his goods down on a winter day. When he did not do that, he had either to employ a sloop for himself, or a big six-oared boat.

9475. But you have to do that in many places in Shetland?-They do that throughout the mainland, in Quendale and other places.

9476. Did the men about Coningsburgh ever complain to you of the quality of the goods sold in Mouat's store?-Of course I might have heard a man complain, just as parties will do when buying goods. Some customers will always complain. They may perhaps despise the thing, and yet at the same time they like very well to take it, but they pretend not to want it in [Page 229] order to get it a little reduced in price. I don't think the goods were any dearer or any worse than in most country shops in Shetland, because they came from the south country, and from the same men from whom most country merchants in Shetland purchase.

9477. Did Mouat buy from a merchant in Aberdeen?-He got most of his soft goods from Mr. D. L. Shirras there.

9478. Where did he get his meal and flour?-Sometimes from Macduff in Banffshire, and sometimes from Tod Brothers, Stockbridge.

9479. Who was his merchant at Macduff?-I forget; I think it was Messrs. Laing. He had one cargo from them during the time I was there. I think Mr. Adie, Voe, had some in the vessel at the same time.

9480. Was the cargo landed at Coningsburgh?-Some of it, and some at other places, just as the party got orders for it.

9481. Did the cargo belong to Mouat, or was it a joint concern?-I cannot say.

9482. Where did he get his flour?-He did not get very much flour during the time I was there, except for house use.

9483. Where did he get his tea and groceries?-From Mackintosh & Co. Glasgow, and from Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.

9484. Did you ever know of any of Mouat's men getting money at the settlement?-Yes; those who had it to get got it, the year I was there.

9485. Were they sometimes paid by receipts or lines?-I cannot say how they were paid. The men, as they came out of the place where they had been settling, spoke about being paid.

9486. But you don't know whether they got cash?-No; they might have got a cheque on the bank. I only saw the entry in the ledger, of cash being paid in full.

9487. Your department was merely to sell in the shop?-Yes; and I was oftener travelling. I travelled a good deal buying up stock for him.

9488. Where were your principal purchases of stock made?-In winter they were chiefly at the Walls Martinmas sale.

9489. Was that in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh?-No, it was in the west side of Shetland; but Mouat would perhaps buy a beast or two in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh as he had orders for them.

9490. How were these cattle settled for?-Those that I bought were paid in money at the time. I cannot tell how he paid for those he bought himself.

9491. Were these cattle sent out of the country?-Some of them were, and others were re-sold in the country.

9492. Do you really think that upon the whole the stock of goods in Mouat's shop was as fair in quality as is usual in Shetland?-I could not say any other. The goods might have been lying for some time, and I could not tell what strength was in them, but they looked very well. They just looked like any goods that you would see brought into a country shop.

9493. I understand you have taken Mrs. Budge's premises at Seafield for curing and salting your fish?-Yes. Of course we had an understanding when we took them, that we were to have the men on equal terms with what they would get from another, but there was no more agreement about it. There is scarcely any man who could keep the premises there and carry on business in them without the privilege of having the men to fish for him. It would hardly have been fair to have made them fish for me unless they were as well served as by fishing for another; but I told them that I did not want any of them to fish for me unless they came voluntarily.

9494. Do you mean that the premises are inconveniently situated for such a business?-Of course. They lie so far inland that we require to have a push like that.

9495. And in order to get men to deliver their fish there, it is necessary that they should be under some sort of obligation?- We thought that unless the men had something to do at the place, it would not be worth keeping it. Of course you cannot very easily force a business there, without a few men that you can depend upon.

9496. Do you mean to force a business in the way of fish-curing, or in the way of selling goods or provisions?-Of course it would require a man with more capital than I have to force a business so far inland.

9497. But which do you mean; the fish-curing business, or the general business?-I mean the general business.

9498. I suppose the drapery and provision business depends very much on the success of the fish-curing business?-Yes. There is nothing else to depend upon. There are no works or anything like that in the neighbourhood.

9499. Do the men who are employed by you in the fishing live near your shop?-Yes.

9500. But you say that for fish-curing this is not a very convenient place, because it is too far inland?-I say it is not convenient for driving a business, unless you have some means to depend upon in the fishing or such like. There are not many people round about who could purchase goods over the counter, so that the business cannot be carried on in that way.

9501. But do you suppose that in any part of Shetland a good business over the counter could be carried on unless there were fishermen employed by the merchants?-Yes. I know places in Shetland where they do carry on a good business over the counter without having fishermen. For instance, they could do so in Unst.

9502. Don't merchants who try to establish a business find it exceedingly difficult to get on in the neighbourhood of a large merchant who has a number of fishermen employed, unless they have fishermen of their own?-No doubt but then there are some places a good distance from these large fish-curers where they could drive a very good business over the counter. Of course they could not make a large business of it, because there is not a large business to be done in Shetland.

9503. But they could make something if they were far enough away from the large fish-curers?-Yes.

9504. Still at any place I suppose it is an advantage for a merchant to be a fish-curer?-I don't know as to that. I cannot say much for it this year. Last year was my first year at it, and I had two boats.

9505. Did you not make a good thing of your fishing last year?- They did very well in the way of fishing, but I lost a good few lines and I had to pay most in cash. I paid the men cash down, and when they do not take their goods in return we make very little by the fish.

9506. Did the men not run accounts with you as they would do with another fish-curer?-No doubt some of them did, but some of them did not.

9507. Had they all cash to receive at the end of the year?-Yes.

9508. Was there not one of them who was in debt to you at the settlement?-Not one. The lowest had about £6 to get.

9509. Then you would not make so much of them as some merchants do?-I don't know as to that. I don't expect that I would make anything.

9510. Did you not expect to drive a fair business at Seafield?- Hardly, upon that footing.

9511. Are you not satisfied with your first year's trial here?- Sometimes we must be doing, although we are not satisfied with everything that comes across us. Sometimes we must just endure it, and hope for better success in another year.

9512. How do you account for your shop business not being larger last year?-The men were in pretty good circumstances, and perhaps they found that they could get their things a little cheaper in Lerwick, and they ran accounts there. Of course I could not sell so cheap as they do in Lerwick, because I was buying most of my goods there. I got part of my goods from the south, and part from Mr. Leask.

9513. Did you hear Mr. Laurence Williamson's evidence?-Yes.

9514. Do you make the same bargain with your fishermen about boats and lines and other things as he described?-The captain of the boat got something extra from me.

[Page 230]

9515. But did you give as much off the boat hire as a premium to the men?-No; but of course it came to the same thing. I got £4 for the boat and lines. Laurence Williamson charged £6, and of course I charged £6 too, but I gave the lines free to the captain of the boat, and £1, 6s., which is equal to £2.

9516. Do any of the men in your experience buy their boats and lines?-They do in other places but not on this island, so far as I am aware.

9517. And that is always a debt against a boat's crew at starting?- Yes. In Dunrossness the crew buy their boat and lines, and I believe in Whalsay too.

9518. Have you engaged your boats for next year?-Of course it was understood when I bought my new boats last year, that the men would continue to fish for me; and this year they have not said anything against continuing to fish.

9519. Therefore you will have the same two boats' crews of Mrs. Budge's tenants?-I hope so.

9520. It was an understanding between you and Mr. Sievwright when you took the premises that these men were to fish for you?- Yes.

9521. Was that understanding put into writing?-No.

9522. Have you any lease of the premises?-No. I have them taken from year to year.

9523. But it was understood in conversation between you and Mr. Sievwright that the men should fish for you?-Yes, that the men should fish on the same terms to me as they would to another person; but still I don't want any of the men who do not come to me voluntarily.

9524. Still you had no objection to the landlord bidding them fish for you?-None whatever.

9525. Were you aware of the letter being written which has been produced to-day?-Yes. I did not see it before it was sent, but I saw it in the hands of the man who produced it.

9526. Did you know it was to be written?-No. I did not know whether Mr. Sievwright was to ask them or to write to them.

9527. But it was quite understood between you and Mr. Sievwright that there was such an arrangement?-Yes, of course I spoke to Mr. Sievwright about it.

9528. And your rent was fixed on that footing?-No; my rent was fixed before that matter was spoken of. I spoke to Mrs. Budge first about it, and she advised me to try it, and said she thought the men would have no objection to fish for me more than to any other party.

9529. Had the premises been unlet for some time?-Yes.

9530. Magnus Mouat had them for two years before you?-Yes.

9531. Had they been unlet before that?-Yes, they were never let before.

9532. Why did Mouat leave?-He did not do very much in the place. He is in Unst now.

9533. Would you pay the same rent for your premises if that understanding did not exist about the men fishing for you?-No, I would not keep them at all.

9534. Why?-Because I could have nothing to do in them. I would have nobody buying anything from me.

9535. And you would have no men to fish for you?-No.

9536. Is that because you cannot get free men to fish for you, or is it because they prefer to fish for the big fish-curers?-When the men are engaged to the big fish-curers, if I were to go and ask them to come and fish for me then I would require to give them a better bargain than they have with the merchants by whom they are employed now, and if I were to do that it would take away all the profit I would have on the fish, and I would have to work for nothing. Therefore I would be as well to want them.

9537. How do you fix the current price at the end of the year?- That is a thing I am hardly able to tell.

9538. How did you manage to ascertain it last year?-My bargain with the men was to give them the current price of the country, and accordingly I did so. I ascertained what the big fish-curers were giving, and I regulated my price by theirs.

9539. You did not settle until you ascertained what price they were getting?-No, I settled just at the general time.

9540. But after you had found out what the large fish-curers were getting?-Yes.

9541. Did you sell to Mr. Leask?-Yes.

9542. Have you any difficulty in getting men employed by the large fish-curers because they are bound to them too?-No, it is not exactly that; but I have not so much money as these fish-curers, and if the men make two or three small fishings, the curers can help them with money or goods, while I could not afford to do that.

9543. You have not the means of carrying them through?-Of course I have not. Men who have been long in business and who have plenty of capital can manage to do the thing in different ways; and small shops like mine need not try to fight against the great.

9544. It was only the balances you paid in cash this year?-Yes; but some of the men had £7 or £8 before settlement time came, and some had before they went to the fishing at all.

9545. Then their accounts at the shop would be rather small on the whole: what would you say was about the average?-They ran from 5s. to £9.

9546. Did they get that in goods?-They could take it either in cash or in goods. When they did not want to take the goods, they got cash if I had it; and if I did not have it at the time, they had just to wait until I could make some shift to get it for them.

9547. Do you buy hosiery?-Very little. If I can get a little good worsted-yarn, that is all I buy.

9548. Who do you sell the yarn to?-All I have done in that is a mere trifle, as I have not been long in the business; but perhaps I take a parcel to Lerwick, and hawk it through the shops, and get goods in exchange which I want for my own business.

9549. Is it understood that you are to take the price out in goods?-Yes. Of course I may meet with a private individual who may buy a few good cuts of worsted from me for cash.

9550. Is the worsted you get generally of good quality?-It is generally thick worsted, worth 2d. or 3d. a cut.

9551. That is not the very finest Shetland worsted?-No. There is some of it as high as 6d. a cut.

9552. Do the merchants re-sell the worsted at the same price or do they charge a profit upon it?-I cannot say much about that; only I know that all that worsted and hosiery is a bad spec. to meddle with. If it lies any time it gets spoiled, and it is very difficult to get a market even for the best quality of it in the south.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT GILBERTSON, examined.

9553. You are a fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell?-Yes.

9554. Is that on the Gossaburgh estate?-No, it is on Mr. Hay's own property.

9555. Are you free to fish for anybody you like?-I have been so in time past, and I am so now, so far as I know.

9556. Have you ever fished for any person except Hay & Co.?- Yes. I fished five years for Mr. Sandison at Cullivoe, two for Mr. Henderson, and one for Mr. Williamson at Ulsta.

9557. Where do you get your supplies?-Generally from the merchant for whom I am fishing. We don't have means to get them anywhere else.

9558. Are you generally a little bit in arrear end of the year?-No; I always manage to have something over to help to pay the land rent.

[Page 231]

9559. Do you pay your rent to Hay & Co.?-Yes, to the man whom they send up to make the settlement. They send a man every year to West Sandwick.

9560. Are you fishing for them just now?-No; the last one I fished for was Mr. Williamson. I have made no arrangement for the present year.

9561. Where are you getting your supplies for the incoming year?-We are shifting along the best way we can. We have some corn and potatoes of our own.

9562. Is not the time past for making up the boats' crews?-No; sometimes it is done before now, but sometimes it is as late as the month of April.

9563. Are there many men near you who have not made any arrangement for this year?-There are a good few, principally those who fished along with me last year.

9564. Then I suppose you are quite at liberty to go and fish for anybody you please?-So far as I know, I am.

9565. Have you no account running anywhere just now?-No.

9566. Are you not in debt to anybody?-I may be about 1s. or 2s. in debt at the shop at Linkshouse, but that is all.

9567. If you engage to fish for Mr. Leask at Ulsta, will you open an account at his shop at once?-I should like to be as long as possible in opening an account.

9568. But I suppose you won't get through the summer without doing so?-No. Of course I could not get through the summer without a little supplies.

9569. Do you think it would be an advantage to you if you could get your fish paid earlier in the season?-It would be an advantage in some respects. If I was not fishing for the proprietor, and if he wanted his rent at Martinmas and I did not settle with the fishcurer, then the proprietor might come upon me for the rent before I had money to pay him, and put me to expenses for that.

9570. Don't the proprietors generally wait for your rent till after the settlement?-In some cases they do, but not always.

9571. Have you known cases where they would not wait until after settlement?-I have not known any but in some cases they would like to have the money as soon as it is due.

9572. Have you known any case in which the fishcurer would not advance money for the rent when the proprietor was needing it?-I never knew that.

9573. Does the fish-curer generally advance you money for that purpose?-Yes, if there is money coming to me at the settlement.

9574. Have you known a fish-curer giving a line to the proprietor for the rent?-Yes. I have got an order from one of our curers to the proprietor himself. I have got an order from Mr. Henderson to Messrs. Hay, and it was accepted the same as cash. That was last year; the order was for about £5. It was a stamped order on the bank. It was only for part of my rent, and I had to shift for the rest somewhere else.

9575. Was it a cheque for the whole balance due to you?-Yes.

9576. Did you get it at settling time?-I got it at the time when Messrs. Hay settled, but I did not get an account from Mr. Henderson until after that.

9577. Then there was more due to you by Mr. Henderson than that?-A trifle. He took care to keep on the right side.

9578. Then you think it would not be of much difference to you to have an earlier payment?-I don't know. It might suit a temperate man very well who could manage his own affairs; but for the man who required all his pence, I don't think it would suit very well.

9579. Don't you think it would be better if you were to be paid so much, perhaps every week or every month, during the course of the fishing, and then to be paid the balance according to the actual price at the end of the season?-I think that would be a very good plan, so far as I can see. It would keep the men from turning into debt, and it would enable them to go to the best market; whereas we who have no money are compelled to take our supplies from the fish-curer.

9580. Do you think that is often a loss to you?-I am certain it is, because his prices must be a little higher in consequence.

9581. Have you felt that yourself?-I felt it last year.

9582. Then anything would be an improvement which would enable you to keep out of debt and deal where you pleased?-Yes; if we had the means of dealing where we pleased, then we would be enabled to go to the best market.

9583. Have you compared the goods you have got from the merchants for whom you were fishing with those you could get elsewhere?-Yes. Last summer we were paying 1s. 3d. per peck for the flour which we were getting from Mr. Williamson at Ulsta, and there was as good flour in Messrs. Hay's at Feideland at 1s. 1d.

9584. Have you ever made any other comparison of that kind?- No. Sometimes when we found the tea or sugar to be bad, we would try where we could get it best; but we could not run an account at these places, in case we might not be able to pay it from our fishing.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, HUGH HUGHSON, examined.

9585. You are a merchant at Gossaburgh?-Yes.

9586. Do you cure fish?-A few.

9587. How many boats had you last year?-I had no boats at all. I deal altogether in ready money. I pay ready cash for all that is brought to me, but I only do in that way on a small scale. I have no bondmen, and I wish for no bondmen.

9588. Do you pay for the fish as they are delivered?-Yes; cash down.

9589. Do you purchase generally from men who are fishing promiscuously along the coast?-Yes.

9590. Do you buy from men who are engaged to other merchants?-No. There are it few small boats that fish along the shore, and when they come along the shore with their fish I buy them.

9591. How do you fix the price of the green fish which you buy from them?-I fix it from the merchants' price. Supposing I can get £20 in cash for dry fish, I consider that I can give about 7s. per cwt. for the same fish green, calculating 21/4 of green to 1 cwt. of dry.

9592. Do you think that kind of business might be carried on on a large scale?-I think it could; and am sure it would be much better for the men. I have been twelve years in the country, and I have found that by paying ready money I have got more custom.

9593. Have you no credit transactions at all?-Yes. I try to oblige people at times when they want goods.

9594. But you have no security in the shape of fish which you are to receive?-No.

9595. In fact you have no security at all except their honesty?- No. I now produce my fish-book, which contains entries of the fish as they are landed, and the prices which I pay for them.

9596. Do you find that the existence of long credits prevents you from driving as large a business as you might otherwise do?-The islands have groaned under the system of long credits for many years.

9597. But do you find that it interferes with your driving a larger business?-I have no command over men, and I do not wish to have, but I always find that when there is any money going I get my fair share of it; and I think if every one did the same, they would get a fair proportion of business.

9598. If the men could not get credit from the larger fish-curers, do you think they would be ready to deliver their fish to you for ready money at the current price?-I think they would. I believe I would be able to [Page 232] buy £100 worth for every £20 worth I buy now, if the men could not get supplies on credit elsewhere.

9599. Do you think the introduction of a cash system of that kind would greatly injure the men, and make them unable to get through the winter?-I think the introduction of a cash system into the islands would not do very well for the poor men, because they must often have £2 or £3 of supplies from the curers before they can begin work. What they complain of is, that the merchants charge them a little as commission upon the money which they pay for the goods.

9600. But instead of getting supplies as they do now, they would be paid for their fish every time they delivered them, and then they could purchase goods as they pleased with the cash?-Yes; but there are many men at present who have no means, and who must come to me and ask me for a few pounds at a time with which to pay their rents. If I refuse them that assistance they could not carry through at all. They could not wait until they got money from their fishing; they would become paupers; and therefore they require advances.

9601. Do you buy any fish in winter and spring?-Yes; I buy a good few in winter when I can get them.

9602. But not enough to keep a man going with his family?-No. I made some money in Australia, and that is what keeps me going.

9603. But the men do not catch enough fish in winter and spring to keep their wives and families?-No. There are sometimes weeks when they can get none at all, the weather is often so stormy.

9604. If you have been in Australia, you know that there are storms elsewhere as well as here?-In Scotland they fish along the coast, but they have better boats and there are vessels always passing, while here there are currents from the Gulf Stream which would frighten any man.

9605. You think they have not so good boats here?-They have not, but they work them wonderfully, and they sometimes frighten me when I come across them.

9606. Have you any idea why it is that these men come to you for credit instead of going to the merchants to whom they sell their fish?-Of course they cannot all deal in one place.

9607. But would they not get their credit much easier from the merchant who is to receive their fish?-They might get it from him, but perhaps they might have the same reason that the man had when he was courting; one man might like me whilst others might not. They might take fancies of that kind.

9608. Do you sell your goods at a lower price than the large merchants?-I cannot say I do. I sell as low as I can, and if I was not selling reasonably low I could not carry on at all.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON examined.

9609. You are a fisherman at Mid Yell?-Yes. I go to the whaling and sealing.

9610. You hold a bit of land here?-Yes.

9611. Do you also go to the ling fishing?-Yes, when I am at home any time; but I generally go to the whaling.

9612. Do you go to Lerwick for an engagement?-Yes. I generally engage through Messrs. Hay.

9613. Do you get your month's wages in advance?-Yes; it is paid down in cash at the Custom House.

9614. You also get an allotment note?-Yes. I leave it with Messrs. Hay, and then they supply my family with what they require.

9615. Does your wife live at Mid Yell when you are away?-Yes.

9616. How does she get her supplies from Lerwick?-She sends an order down to them, and they send her up what she requires by the steamer.

9617. Is that the only account you keep?-That the only account I keep with them; but I keep some accounts with other men.

9618. Do you keep an account with the merchant for whom you go to the ling fishing afterwards?-Yes.

9619. When you come home from Greenland you settle with Messrs. Hay at the Custom House?-Yes, as soon as I come home.

9620. You did not use to do that formerly?-No; we always used to settle in the office.

9621. When you settled in the office, the amount of your account was deducted from what you were to get?-Yes; but what money we had to get was paid down to us in cash.

9622. But now you get all your money except what you have got in the ship, and the first month's advance?-Yes.

9623. And with the balance you walk down to Hay & Co.'s office and pay off their account?-Yes.

9624. I suppose you just go down with the clerk who has been along with you at the Custom House?-Yes.

9625. Do you always pay off their account on the same day that you are settled with?-Yes; but it only two years since we began to be paid in that way.

9626. Have you been at the whale fishing every year for some time back?-I have been eleven voyages at it but from 1852 I have been in the south as well as at Greenland, and I have been at the ling fishing too, and all sorts of trades.

9627. When is your last payment of oil-money generally settled for?-When the oil has been boiled at Dundee or Peterhead, and they know how much there is of it, the money is sent on to Lerwick. If we are there to receive it we will get it as soon as it comes and if not, it will lie until we come.

9628. Do you get it at the Custom House or Messrs. Hay's office?-If we like, we get it at the Custom House; but this year I would not go there and I got it at the office. It was at night, and we could not get access to the Custom House; but as I wanted to get clear. I was just paid at the office.

9629. Is your first payment of wages and oil-money after you come home generally made before you leave Lerwick and come to Yell?-It is now. They are very strict about that. They like you to settle up before you leave the town.

9630. What amount of cash do you generally get as the first payment on a Greenland voyage?-It depends on what kind of voyage we make. Sometimes we have very little to get. Last year I had somewhere about £10 or £12 to get for wages and the first payment of oil-money. I had taken £2, 5s. of out-takes from Messrs. Hay besides my first month's advance. That was for supplies to my family at home while I was away. I was only absent for six weeks.

9631. What ship were you in?-The 'Labrador' of London. We made a good voyage.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, DANIEL MORE, examined.

9632. You are a fisherman and tenant at Cunningster?-I am a fisherman, but not a tenant. I have got a house of my own.

9633. How long have you been there?-About two months-since Martinmas. I was at Basta before, and at Colvister, and at Basta before that.

9634. Why have you changed so often? Could you not get a bit of ground to sit upon?-I was twenty-two years at first in Basta, and then I lost my health, and I began some little business in groceries. The landlord of the ground was Mr. George Hoseason, but the tacksman was his half-brother, Mr. Hoseason of Mossbank. He thought I was doing too well in my grocery business, and taking away too much from their shop, and he put me away from there.

[Page 233]

9635. How did you know that he put you away for that reason?- Because they told me that.

9636. How long is it since that occurred?-About twelve years ago.

9637. Where did you go next?-To Colvister, where I was under Mr. William Henderson of Gloup, brother of Mr. George Henderson of Burravoe. I had a small shop there.

9638. Why did you leave that?-I left because I was not a fisherman. Mr. Henderson wanted me to go to the fishing; but as I would not he got another in my place, and thought he would make better of it.

9639. Is it usual for a proprietor to turn away a man who does not fish?-Yes. I paid £1 more than every man who fished every year since I left the fishing, except to Mr. Hoseason of Basta.

9640. Did you pay that to Mr. Henderson while you were at Colvister?-Yes.

9641. How long were you there?-Eight years.

9642. Did you pay £8 of additional rent to him during that time?- Yes. The other tenants paid £4 for the same amount of land that I paid £5 for.

9643. Did he tell you that that was because you did not fish?- Yes.

9644. Did he tell you that when you took the ground?-No; he did not say very much about it at that time.

9645. But he told you afterwards that you must pay £1 a year more if you did not fish?-Yes.

9646. Why did you leave?-I did not leave until he warned me.

9647. Why did he warn you?-Because he wanted a skipper for a boat.

9648. Where have you been since?-I was on Basta for three years.

9649. Where are you now?-On Major Cameron's property, under Mr. Walker. I have no shop there; but I have a house and a bit of ground, which I bought with money I had saved. I am not doing anything at present.

9650. Have you known many men who have been turned out of their holdings because they did not fish?-I have known a few in Yell. The proprietors of the land, if they did not fish for them, would turn them out.

9651. Is that a common understanding among the people?-Yes.

9659. Is there anything else you want to say about it?-Nothing particular, but that I know I have been harshly handled because they thought I made a living by selling some groceries and one thing and another. They did not like it very well, and in that way they turned me out of both places.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN S. HOUSTON, examined.

9653. You are parochial schoolmaster of North Yell?-I am.

9654. You have had considerable experience in the management of property?-Yes, and in dividing runrig lands.

9655. How long have you been in the country?-Between 15 and 16 years.

9656. Have you had experience as to the relations existing between proprietors of land and fish-merchants in Shetland?- A little.

9657. Would you explain the nature of the arrangements that have been made in former times, and which are now made, by which the rent of the proprietor is paid through or by the fish-merchant?-When I came to Shetland, Major Cameron's property in Yell was let to Mr. Sandison as tacksman; but when the Major came from India, the lease had expired, and he appointed me to take charge of his property. Frequently at rent time the parties had not received their money for fish, and as a necessary consequence they got lines from their curer, the sums in which were placed to their credit by Major Cameron. The sum of these lines when all was over was sent to the fish-curer, the party who gave the lines, and a cheque on the bank was given for them.

9658. Was that merely a practice resorted to for the convenience of the fishermen and the proprietor, or was there an understanding with the fish-curer that he should make these advances?-It was a convenience for all parties.

9659. You are not aware that there was any understanding between the fish-curer and the proprietor to that effect?-There was an understanding between Major Cameron and Mr. Sandison.

9660. Was Mr. Sandison the fish-curer you have referred to?- Yes, Sandison Brothers. There was an understanding that any of Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be called reckless or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their earnings, but that something should be left for their rent.

9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his fishcuring premises?-Yes.

9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they were the same. I have plenty of them at home.*

9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any other estate?-I believe it has existed but I cannot speak so positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun. before he became a partner of the Mossbank firm.

9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that, although there was no understanding on the subject, Major Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly cut-and-dry for him.

9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr. Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has not done so.

9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving lines exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants.

9667. Have you had much intercourse with the fishermen in your district of the country?-Yes; I often hear their conversations.

9668. Do you know generally the way in which business is conducted in the fish trade?-I think I do.

9669. Are you aware that much complaint exists with regard to the way in which the current price for fish is fixed at the end of the season?-The fishermen, as a general rule always complain.

9670. What are the grounds of their complaint?-I think the reason why they complain is, that they believe the curers never give them so large a price as they should do. There is a sort of jealousy abroad amongst all the fishermen, which perhaps originated in formerdays, but which is still rankling in their bosoms.

9671. A jealousy of whom?-A jealousy of the fish-curers, that they don't give them fair play.

9672. Have you seen any cases where you thought they did not get fair play?-Not for some time past.

9673. Are you able to form an opinion upon the question whether the fishermen are justified in complaining of the manner in which the current price is fixed?-I think, as a general rule, they are not. I know practically, from curers books that I had access to, that the current price is fairly fixed.

9674. Have you been employed as an [Page 234] accountant?- No; but I have had confidence placed in me, and I have seen their books.

9675. Have you any means of knowing whether there are more prices than one for the fish, according to the market to which they are sent?-I am aware that each curer does not receive the same price. There are exceptions to the rule. Some send their fish direct to the foreign market, and some sell to a home firm, who require something for their risk and trouble.

9676. Do you think the present system of distant payments for the fish could be altered, and a better one introduced?-I don't well see how it could be altered for the benefit of the fishermen.

9677. Is that on account of the bad seasons which occur occasionally?-Not altogether on account of the bad season, but it suits them better. Many of them prefer to leave their money with their curer until they require it for their rents.

9678. They prefer him to act as their banker?-Exactly.

9679. Is it not the case that many fishermen who ask advances from their curers before the fishing season begins, or during its course, are really capitalists with considerable sums in the bank?-I am not aware of any case of that kind, but I know plenty of fishermen who have money in the bank. I should say that the system would perhaps be more healthy if the fishermen were paid when the fishing was over. That would remove many grievances now complained of.

9680. Do you think they should be paid in July or August?-In the end of August.

9681. But if they were paid then they might get a lower price than the fish-merchants eventually got?-They would have to be paid at a rate by which the curer would be certain to be safe as his fish had not gone to market, and they did not know what they would realize; but the same holds good on the coast of Scotland in the herring fishing.

9682. Would the fishermen, so far as you know them, be content with a system of that sort?-I cannot say; I rather think not.

9683. Do you think they would like to have the chance of a larger price?-They would engage just now for the next season if they were satisfied that they would realize 1s. more than the market would afford them at Martinmas.

9684. But they would not engage otherwise?-No.

9685. Do you think they would endeavour to get quit of such a bargain if the price at Martinmas should turn out to be higher than what they had agreed for the commencement of the season?- Attempts are made of that nature in their dealings in the selling of cattle.

9686. Are cattle sometimes sold according to a current price at a later period?-Cattle are sometimes bought during the spring. If not bought then, they are sold by auction at fixed sales in May, and in the mainland they have a Martinmas sale for fat cattle.

9687. But they are sometimes sold before these sales?-They are sold in spring to parties going through the district seeking cattle to buy; and during the last season the prices were so very high at the spring sales, that I know parties who had sold their cattle before, and then came back upon the purchaser asking him for the currency of the sale, although their animals had been sold months before.

9688. Did they get what they asked?-In one case they did.

9689. Was that from a proprietor?-No.

9690. Does the practice of marking the horns of cattle exist in Yell?-It does.

9691. In what circumstances is that done?-If a tenant becomes indebted to me and cannot pay me in cash, he offers me one of his cattle and to make sure of it I cut the initials of my name on its horns.

9692. Are you assuming that you are the landlord?-It does not matter whether I am the landlord or not. I may be a merchant, and it is the merchants who do it; the landlord does not require to do it, because the hypothec protects him.

9693. But the merchant takes his chance of the landlord's hypothec interfering with him?-Yes.

9694. If a merchant marks a beast in that way, is it generally exposed at the next periodical sale?-Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is taken away at a price fixed upon at the time. If not, it is sold, and the merchant gets his money.

9695. Do you think the debtor in that case has perfect freedom in fixing the price?-Both parties fix it.

9696. But do you think the debtor is under no constraint?-None. Arbitration would decide it.

9697. Arbitration might decide it, but is arbitration resorted to?- Sometimes. A person understood to be qualified puts a value upon the cattle, or the currency at which such animals are selling at that time is taken.

9698. It has been alleged that when merchants got people deeply in debt they mark their cattle, and they can take them at any price they choose: is that so?-I have never seen a case of that kind. Such a practice may have existed 20 or 30 years ago, but I am entirely ignorant of it. I may further state something which was not exactly implied in your questions, but which in the south is generally misunderstood. As a general rule, the fishermen get one-third of the selling price of the fish. Fish dry in 5-9ths-that is 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. dry, fit for the market,-and it is understood that the curer pays one-third; but when the price may be £20 and upwards, he pays more than one-third of the selling prices. When the price is £14 or £15 he can only afford to pay one-third, the expenses being the same per ton for curing at the high price as at the low price. Suppose he sells his fish at £20 per ton, he pays his fishermen £7; 21/4 times 7 are £15, 15s. The curing of that ton of fish costs him £2, 10s., that is £18, 5s., leaving him £1, 15s. to pay for his salt, to transport them to his store, and ship them on board a vessel, and to pay their freight to Leith. Hence it follows that the fish-curer has very little profit indeed.

9699. Upon what data is that conclusion of yours rounded?-Upon facts which I know with regard to the prices paid by curers.

9700. Do you know the price of the salt and the expenses of curing, through the curers themselves?-The fixed price for curing has always been 50s.

9701. That is the price which they charge?-That is the price which a party would charge a curer for curing his fish.

9702. That would be for salting and curing?-They would salt them, but the salt belongs to the curer.

9703. But the price of the salt is included in the 50s.?-No. I have my information from a curer of long standing, but who is not now in the trade.

9704. Have you any information to give with regard to the obligations of fishermen upon other estates in Shetland to fish for the landlords?-I have had a good deal to do with the property of Simbister, on which there were no tenants bound to fish, except those belonging to the Coningsburgh district, who were under tack to Mouat. Their leases bound them to do so; but, on the expiry of that lease, Mr. Bruce did not intend to let any of his lands again after that fashion. To my knowledge he refused to let them to a party who would have been a good tenant.

9705. Is there any other point falling within this inquiry upon which you are prepared to make any statement?-The only other statement I should wish to make would be a sort of qualification as to why the fishermen are generally dissatisfied with the prices they get. It is understood that they get one-third, or a little more when the prices are high, and if that is the understanding they argue that they ought to see the bills of sale. They say, 'Why not lay down to us when you settle, the document according to which you have sold your fish; we don't know what you have sold them at, we only have that from hearsay.' That is the only reason why I think the fishermen actually complain.

9706. Do you see any reason why they should not see the bills of sale?-I think they are entitled to see them.

[Page 235]

9707. Are they not really partners with the curer?-They are; for they are risking the market as well as the curer.

9708. Have you read the evidence that was given before this Commission in Edinburgh?-I have; and the only observation I would make upon it is, that I am not a believer in it generally. Facts are stated as existing many years ago, but which are not applicable to the present day, as a general rule, throughout Shetland.

9709. Do you think the condition of Shetland has improved during the sixteen years you have lived in it?-Yes; especially during the last five, and more especially during the last three years. The prices of cattle have been so high that a tenant could pay his rent at once with an animal, when he could not do that before. The price of fish has also improved.

9710. These, however, may be transient facts?-They may be.

9711. Prices may fall?-They may.

9712. Is there any permanent cause operating to improve the condition of Shetland?-There is more direct communication with the south. Purchasers come into it now and buy directly, instead of buying through natives resident here acting as their agents, and who perhaps might charge something extra for their own trouble, and that had to come off the people. There is one part of Mr. Walker's evidence which I consider to be perfectly true, where he referred to the giving of credit to children or almost children. I believe that to be an injurious practice, because children are initiated into the system of getting credit when they are eleven or twelve years old, and it never ceases with them unless they leave home. It may in certain cases cease; but as a general rule it does not, and I think it is like learning them to smoke tobacco, or anything of that sort.

9713. Is there any other point in Mr. Walker's evidence, or the evidence given in Edinburgh, which you consider to be true?-The evidence given in Edinburgh contained a great many facts highly coloured, and I may add somewhat exaggerated.

9714. Do you think the present state of the hosiery trade is a wholesome one?-No. I consider the hosiery trade, as a whole, to be a morally unhealthy one as it present exists.

9715. Is that because of the facilities which offers for the younger members of the family to get into debt?-It is not that. I speak particularly of Yell, where yarn is produced; the merchants have to lay a higher price on their goods when they give them for yarn than they would do for cash, or for any other article brought to them which was worth its value in cash.

9716. Do they put a higher price upon the goods which they sell for yarn?-They must do it.

9717. Is not that high price charged in all other sales as well as in sales which they make for yarn?-No; the country merchants here have two prices.

9718. You heard the evidence of Mr. Pole to-day, in which he said they had only one price for all their goods?-Yes. Mr. Pole seems to have adopted a new system. I know they had two prices some time ago.

9719. You are aware that two prices did exist there?-Yes, and in many other places.

9720. You believe that to be unwholesome?-I do.

9721. Does it create a bad feeling towards the merchant?-I think the practice is morally wrong. To meet these things, many females come, not with 100 threads in each cut, but with from 90 down to 80, obliging the merchant to count the yarn which he buys from certain parties in whom he has not implicit confidence.

9722. Of course that encourages deception?-Yes. With regard to the trade in yarn, the merchant buys it according to its quality. If he is to sell it in Lerwick, he employs a party for the purpose, who receives a percentage for selling it. The merchant has also to pay freight, and he has to lay these things upon his goods.

9723. Are you aware that in Lerwick the practice of the merchants is not to sell worsted at all, but merely to purchase what they want for their own use?-I am not aware of that. I know there are merchants in Lerwick who do sell worsted, but they could scarcely be called <bona fide> hosiery merchants. They are generally people who sell for some one in the country, sometimes as a favour, and sometimes for commission.

9724. These are not hosiery shops?-No; they are sometimes grocers.

9725. I fancy that a party selling yarn may more readily take it to a grocer if she wants provisions rather than dry goods, as she will not get provisions in Lerwick from the merchants?-The grocer won't buy it unless he requires it for family use, but he will take it from a merchant as a favour, and sell it for him.

9726. But I have been informed by many merchants in Lerwick that they always purchase Shetland worsted for money; and as they require all they can get and more for their own use, they do not sell it again at all; so that, according to that information, any person going from Yell to Lerwick and selling worsted, could get the highest cash price for it from one of the hosiery merchants: is that not consistent with your knowledge of the matter?-I am aware that cash has been given. I have known a firm that dealt with a Lerwick hosiery merchant to a very large extent, and perhaps received £90 in cash for hosiery and yarn in one season. That, however, I looked upon as an exception.

9727. You heard the evidence of William Stewart with regard to Whalsay?-Yes.

9728. You were employed by the late Mr. Bruce to divide the toons there?-Yes. He wished to abolish the run-rig system, and to place his tenants on a money-paying system-to fish for whom they chose, and to pay him a rent. I was employed to make the division, and I divided every toon in the island, except one.

9729. At that time did you find that the system which Stewart described was either prevailing, or had been prevailing shortly before?-It was just dying out.**

[Page 236]

9730. Does any other person wish to be examined, or to make any statement? [No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.

*The witness afterwards forwarded a number of these lines. They were in similar terms to the following:-

'CULLIVOE, 8<th Dec>. 1864. '£7, 0s. 7d.

'Mr. HOUSTON,-Please credit A.B. in rent account the sum of seven pounds and sevenpence, and charge to account of ' SANDISON BROTHERS.'

**Mr. Houston afterwards submitted the following remarks by way of supplement to his evidence;-The collecting of rents and <arrears> of long standing, and the dividing and renting of farms, and other unavoidable accompaniments, placed me as a temporary link between landlord and tenant, and tended to give me a knowledge of Shetland affairs in general, as existing between landlord and tenant, between fish-curer and fishermen, and between merchant and customer. Although the dividing and letting of farms may not be considered relevant to the present inquiry into the truck system, I hold a <decidedly opposite opinion>. No doubt poverty is the foundation upon which the truck system has been reared, and may justly be called its <foster> parent; and the origin may be traced, very clearly too, to the subdividing of farms, it being the interest of the landlord-curer to accommodate as many fishermen as possible. In many districts, and on small properties where the landlord is storekeeper and curer, that system is still upheld, and <fostered> with pious care; while on many of the larger properties the proprietors are endeavouring to abolish it. The islands being over-populated, and the farms so insignificantly small, it follows as a result that the inhabitants have to depend on external aid, and throw themselves, although reluctantly it may be, into the arms of a system which, however honestly conducted, has a tendency to hamper their movements, to bereave them of independence, and to plunge parents and their children into debt, out of which they may never be able to extricate themselves. There is an antidote, but its application would require to be a work of <time>.

<Fishcurer and Fishermen>.

In my evidence I stated that at present I considered fishermen were generally well treated, and received as high a price as the curer could well afford; but at same time I <do not> consider the curer is acting judiciously. Under the present arrangement of prices, I can only view the curer and his fishermen in the light of a joint-stock company. The curer supplies boats and lines directly or indirectly. The fishermen give their labour and risk their lives, and when the summer fishing closes, the part the fishermen play in the speculation terminates. The curer prepares the fish for the market, disposes of them, and receives the cash. As the price to be paid to the fishermen is regulated by the market price, I consider it the bounden duty of the curer to lay before the fishermen, at settling, the <missive of sale>, that document being the common property of <both parties>, and more especially as three-fourths at least of the cash realized is understood to belong to the men. <That>, however, <is not the practice>; and hence the fishermen, naturally jealous, and still wincing under the scars of former years, are never satisfied; and I consider the curer in acting thus is reprehensible, and the fishermen justified in complaining, even when the curer is a sufferer. Were it made penal on the part of the curer to treat the bargain so, there would be less injustice done to himself, and less suspicion thrown around his integrity. Since the truck uproar has spread its wings on the Shetland blast, and breathed offensively in the faces even of Her Majesty's Government, it has been suggested by strangers that curers should pay their fishermen each time fish was delivered. That mode would not be advantageous to the fishermen. It would suit their interests better to be paid at the close of the fishing, on the same principle as is done by those engaged in the seal trade. At every station during the summer fishing there is a 'beach price,' and if that price was paid for the summer's catch at the close of the fishing it would put the fishermen in a position of buying with <cash> instead of being dependent on their curer's store for months after the fishing had closed. The residue of the price, which would be a mere trifle, would be paid them when the fish was sold, and the price known, on the same principle as 'oil-money' in the seal trade. I have no doubt whatever but such a mode, if adopted, would tend to put a stop to the present and <necessary> facilities of drawing so largely upon the curer's store. The fisherman who has neither money nor <credit> must go to his curer's store, as he has no other alternative; but were he put in possession of his earnings at the close of the fishing, <truck> for a time would disappear from his individual horizon. I may mention that the hosier referred to in my evidence as having paid £90 in cash in a year to a party in the country for hosiery and yarn was Mr. Robert Linklater, Lerwick; and I may further state that I have known Mr. Robert Sinclair give £15 once on a £20 transaction of hosiery, etc.

BALTASOUND, UNST: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1872.

<Present>-MR. GUTHRIE.

JOAN OGILVY, examined.

9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times with worsted from other people.

9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I have made has been for other people.

9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I have knitted that and sold the hosiery.

9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut for it in cash.

9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in money?-I never asked it.

9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling your hosiery?-No.

9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes, goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and other things.

9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I get 1s. 6d. for each of them.

9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the shawl: it was merely for the knitting.

9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because it was not the custom to give it.

9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but goods?-I get cash at times.

9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s.

9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it, but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady.

9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the whole price in money?-No; I never asked it.

9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so.

9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?- Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash for it.

9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not ask for it in that way.

9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got money?-I think so.

9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s. 6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better.

9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes.

9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little cheaper.

9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even with the goods payment.

9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and sometimes in goods, just as I ask it.

9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got 30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to work them. She paid me for these in cash.

9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand.

9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took a little goods for, just as suited myself.

9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago.

9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that.

9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They were women's cloth jackets.

9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop.

9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick.

9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie.

9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes.

9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea.

9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago.

9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet.

9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account for me herself.

9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it.

9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no lines from her.

9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and you don't need them?-I suppose so.

9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get them?-Yes, I get them from her.

9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times, but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us. The things for the knitting come from Lerwick.

9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she balances now and then?-Yes.

9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often. I have not had a great deal of goods from her.

9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not think of keeping an account of it.

9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little more.

9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her.

9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?- It was for knitting.

9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and partly for other things.

9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask them; but when I ask for cash I get it.

9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to me because she knew I could not do without it.

9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very good articles.

9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes.

9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be paid in cash for it?-Yes.

9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?- No, it is not less.

9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less.

9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr. Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop.

9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes.

9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money.

9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods.

9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No.

9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest, and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON, examined.

9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is given out to me.

9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence.

9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes.

9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require.

9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes.

9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co., and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it.

9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes.

9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps once a month; just when my work is finished.

9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s. to 12s.

9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never bought any myself.

9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop.

9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way there, in goods.

9806. Do you get no lines there?-No.

9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you want?-Yes.

9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have no rent to pay. I have a house of my own.

9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No.

9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at Haroldswick?-Yes.

9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter.

9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s. 5d. just now.

9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d.

9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes.

9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid 6d. a yard for it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined.

9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am.

9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone of Buness.

9818. What rent do you pay?-£5.

9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page 238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr. David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way.

9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and then for Mr. Samuel Hunter.

9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr. Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly whether I was free to fish for any other person or not.

9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not.

9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe I can.

9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr. John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell any to him.

9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and settle with them every winter?-Yes.

9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled about 10th January at Haroldswick.

9827. Have you a pass-book?-No.

9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes.

9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement.

Spotted a typo or a problem in this chapter? Tell us