Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 2 of 8)

Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 2 of 8)

1161. And you get a supply from him of provisions, clothing, fishing material, and everything you require?-Yes.

1162. That is marked down against you in the book, and deducted from the price of your fish at the end of the season?-Yes.

1163. Is the price for these fish fixed only at settling time?-Yes.

1164. Who does the boat belong to in which you go to the Faroe fishing?-I have been at that fishing for different owners.

1165. Does the boat always belong to the merchant, or does it sometimes belong to the men themselves?-No; it always belongs to the merchant.

1166. But the whole material required for that fishing, except the boat, belongs to the men?-Yes; and it is purchased by them from the shipowner. We have to find our hooks and lines and provisions. That is all we have to find, the owner finds the rest.

1167. Are you a married man?-Yes, I have a wife and two children.

1168. How are your family supported during your absence at the Faroe fishing? Where do they get their supplies?-They can get them in the owner's store if they require them, but, for myself, I do not require to go there. I can get them at any place I please.

1169. Is it a common thing for the other men who go to the Faroe fishing, to buy their goods at the owners store?-When they don't have money to buy them at other places, they go there for them.

1170. But is that a common thing?-I cannot say exactly. I suppose it is not uncommon.

1171. Does it often happen that a man employed in the Faroe fishing finds an account against him in the owner's store for provisions at settling time as large as the amount which he has to receive for his fishing?-I am not acquainted with that myself.

1172. When you are away at the Faroe fishing, and your family have occasion for money, is there any difficulty in getting it from the parties who employ you?-Not if they know we have money to get. If we have a balance in our favour, they are not against giving it.

1173. How long are you generally absent at that fishing?- Sometimes six months, sometimes seven, and sometimes as low as three months.

1174. Suppose you had been away from home for two or three months, there would certainly be two or three months take of fish, if it was a middling season, for which money would be due to you?-Yes.

1175. Would your wife at home be able to get an advance of money from the merchant in that case, if she required it for the support of the family?-Yes.

1176. There is no difficulty made about that?-No.

1177. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a man's wife to get such advances of money during his absence-Yes, they would get a small sum of money, but the merchant would prefer them to take goods.

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1178. If she comes for the money is she ever told to take it in goods; or is there any understanding that she is to take it in goods?-I cannot answer that, because I am not acquainted with what goes on while I am away. I can only speak to what has come within my own experience.

Lerwick, January 2, 1872, GILBERT GOODLAD, examined.

1179. You are a fisherman in Burra, and you hold land there under Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

1180. You have been present during the examination of the previous witnesses?-Yes.

1181. Do you agree with most of what Williamson and Smith have said?-Yes.

1182. Is it all correct?-Yes; all correct.

1183. You generally go to the Faroe fishing?-I do.

1184. How long may you be absent at that fishing?-It just depends upon the season: sometimes we may be away for perhaps four months. We are generally home once in the middle of the time. We are sometimes we may be away longer than four months, sometimes not so long ago.

1185. What merchants have you generally engaged with?-I have engaged with a great many merchants in Shetland.

1186. There has been no objection made to your going with any merchant you liked?-No.

1187. Messrs. Hay have not objected to that?-No. They might not have been requiring me when I was going, and therefore I could go where I liked.

1188. When you go there, how do you arrange for your family to be supplied during your absence?-The merchant supplies them during my absence.

1189. What merchant?-Whatever owner I am out for.

1190. When your wife wants supplies, does she go to his shop for them?-Yes.

1191. If she wants money, does she ask it from him too?-She may, but sometimes she has been refused it. They are not willing to give money. If they think we are doing well at the fishing, they will advance her a little money; but if they think we are not succeeding well, they will not give it, because they would think then that we might come to be in their debt.

1192. Is there any communication with the vessels when they are at the fishing?-Yes. Some of the vessels may go home and come back again, or an accident may occur on board of one of them, and she may go home and give an account of how the fishing is going on. They may also send letters from Faroe, by Denmark, to Shetland; so that there are several ways of communicating from there to here.

1193. Who are some of the parties with whom you have shipped for the Faroe fishing?-I have been out for Mr. Garriock in Reawick, Mr. Garriock in Lerwick, Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay.

1194. But, whoever you go out for, your wife generally goes to their shop for her supplies?-She is obliged to go there, if we have no other means to live on.

1195. Can you tell me one occasion on which she went and was refused money, or on which you have asked them to give her money and it has been refused?-I am not quite sure that there has been any occasion of that kind, because we know that if we are not fishing well, we need not ask for money.

1196. Have you been told that by any of the shopkeepers?-I have seen it, and experienced it.

1197. When, and how?-Even during the last season with the Faroe fishing, there were some of the merchants who would not make an advance to the people when they required it.

1198. Did they require to get an advance of money?-They might try to live on through the season without money, and they might have done it if they could only have got some meal and some bread to live upon.

1199. Do you mean that the people at the fishing had to do so?- No; the people whom they left at home got so little that they could hardly subsist upon it, and they had to try some other means in order to enable them to live.

1200. What other means had they?-They might have a cow or two, and make butter, and sell the milk, and buy a little meal with that.

1201. Do any of the members of your family knit?-I have two daughters who knit

1202. Do they get money for that knitting?-Not one cent.

1203. Have you sold the hosiery work for them?-I never did. They always manage these matters for themselves.

1204. Have you ever represented their case to the merchants, and said that they ought to pay them in cash?-No. It is no use saying anything of the kind, because the merchants would not give them money. There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the Faroe fishing. We come into the town of Lerwick, or any other port in Shetland where the vessels happen be fitting out, and commence to fit the vessels so as to have them ready for sea. We have to go on board, and have only an allowance of one pound of bread a day for every day we are on board the vessel. We have nothing else to live on during the time we are fitting out the vessels, and if we are absent on any account whatever during the time the vessels are being fitted out they charge 2s., 6d. per day for that, in order to put a man in our place.

1205. Is not that merely a part of your bargain with the merchants for whom you engage to fish?-It is part of the bargain, but it is a very bad part.

1206. If you did not choose to make a bargain of that kind, you would not be bound to carry it out?-That is true; but the poor people here cannot strike as they do in England: because they are so poor, the merchants can just do as they please with them.

1207. Did you sign the obligation eight years ago which has been spoken to by the previous witnesses?-No.

1208. Do you go in for the home fishing at all?-Yes; I am a fisherman in the Burra Isles.

1209. Do you consider yourself bound to fish only for Messrs. Hay in the home fishing?-I do.

1210. Have you ever been told so by Messrs. Hay?-Yes, I have been told that; and there was a document made out, but I did not sign it. I have got no notice about the matter since then, because we knew that we had to carry on the fishing in the same way.

1211. Have you ever paid liberty money?-No, I never had anybody to pay it for, and I never paid for myself.

1212. Have you ever asked to have the price of your fish fixed at the beginning of the season?-No.

1213. Is there not a feeling among the men, that that would be a better mode of dealing than the present?-We durst not go in for anything of the kind.

1214. Would it not be a better plan in the Faroe fishing?-We could not do anything of the kind there, because the merchants don't know what the price of the fish will be until they can be sold. The market may rise.

1215. You take your chance of the markets there-Yes; whatever chance the merchant gets, we get too. We run shares with the merchants in that fishing.

1216. You are not paid at so much per cwt.?-No; we have shares. One half of the fish that are brought in by the vessel belongs to the crew, and the other half belongs to the owners.

1217. Then you are not serving for wages there at all?-No; they give us wages if we have to go to Iceland in the fall of the year but they give no wages for the summer fishing at Faroe. It is just a partnership that is made up for the fish that are caught.

1218. Is there anything further you wish to say?-No; I think everything which we have to say has been pretty well said by the other men.

1219. Are all the thirteen men here who signed the letter to me about Burra?-Yes.

1220. Have any of them anything further to say?-[No answer.]

<Adjourned>.

[Page 25]

Lerwick: Wednesday, January 3, 1872. <Present>-Mr Guthrie.

JOHN LEASK, examined.

1221. You are a fisherman at Channerwick, parish of Sandwick?- I am.

1222. You came here yesterday for the purpose making some statement: what was it about?-I wanted to make some statement about how I have been treated three years back, particularly.

1223. Are you a tenant of land?-Yes.

1224. Are you a yearly tenant?-Yes.

1225. Under whom?-Under Mr. Robert Bruce of Simbister.

1226. Do you pay your rent to him?-We pay our rent to Mr. William Irvine, the factor.

1227. Is that Mr. Irvine of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

1228. What quantity of land do you hold?-It is rather more than what are called two merks and about a third.

1229. How much is that in acres?-I don't know. It is a Danish measurement.

1230. How much rent do you pay for that?-£4, 2s. 10d.

1231. Do you also pay taxes and poor-rates in addition?-No; that is included in the sum I have mentioned.

1232. What did you come to complain about?-About the way we were dealt with when we were under tack for seventeen years to Mr. Robert Mouat. He got bankrupt in the latter end.

1233. How long is it since he became bankrupt?-It was only last year, and he went away then.

1234. Before that, had he a tack of the whole lands of Mr. Bruce in that part of the country?-He had Levenwick, Channerwick and Coningsburgh in tack.

1235. Had you to pay your rent to him?-Yes.

1236. He was what is called a middle-man in Shetland?-Yes; a middle-man or tacksmaster. The Shetland name for it is tacksmaster.

1237. You were under tack to him, and you paid the same rent to him that you have mentioned just now?-Yes, I suppose so, but I don't remember what rent I paid to him, for I never got my rent from him.

1238. How do you mean?-Because he was the tacksman, and he took what rent he liked.

1239. Do you mean to say that you did not pay £4, 2s. 10d. to him the same as you are doing now?-I paid him more.

1240. When was your rent fixed at £4, 2s. 10d.?-This year.

1241. What was your rent before?-I cannot tell what it was under Mouat, for I never heard what it was. He never told me what my rent was; it was just what he liked to take. But after Mouat left, Mr. Bruce gave us our liberty. We have had our liberty for the past year, and we go now and pay our rent to the factor, and he has told us what our rent is.

1242. Did you fish for Mouat when he was there?-I was bound by the proprietor to do so.

1243. Had you signed any agreement to do that?-I was never called upon to sign any agreement, but Mouat told me that his agreement with the proprietor was that I was bound to fish for him; and he told me that if I did not fish for him, he had power to warn me out of the place where I lived.

1244. When did he tell you that?-He told me that at the commencement of the tack, seventeen years ago.

1245. Had you been in the same ground before that time?-Yes.

1246. Who did you hold from at that time?-The tacksman before Mouat was Mr. Spence, Lerwick. He collected the rents for Mr. Bruce.

1247. Was he the tacksman or only a factor?-He was a lawyer or tacksman, taking up the money for Mr. Bruce.

1248. Were you bound then to fish for any particular individual?- We were always bound.

1249. After Mouat told you that you must fish for him, did you ever fish for any one else during the whole of these seventeen years?-No.

1250. Why did you not sell your fish to any one else?-For fear of being warned off the property where was living; and I had nowhere else to go to, because I was a poor man.

1251. Is it the home fishing you are now speaking of?-Yes, the home or ling fishing; but I have been in the whale fishery, and in the straits fishery, and the Faroe fishery, as well as in the home fishery.

1252. But you were not at these other fishings for Mouat?-No; I was at home when I fished for him.

1253. Could you engage with any one you pleased for the whale fishing or the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

1254. You have no complaint to make about that-No; I could go to any one I liked, only I was bound under tack to Mouat.

1255. When you fished for Mouat, did you deliver your fish to his people?-Yes.

1256. Where?-At Levenwick.

1257. Did you deliver them green or dry?-Green.

1258. How were you paid for them?-We were just paid as he liked to pay us. He gave us just what he chose.

1259. When were you paid for them?-Sometimes in March, sometimes about the New Year, or just when he chose to make arrangements for paying us.

1260. Did he pay you then for all the fish of the previous season?-Yes.

1261. At what time in the season did you begin to fish?-We began in the spring-generally in the month of May.

1262. And all the fish which you caught from May down to next winter were paid for in January or February or March?-Yes; or at any time, just as he chose to make arrangements for paying.

1263. Did you make a bargain about the price at the beginning of the season?-No.

1264. Did you make your bargain when you delivered your fish to him?-No.

1265. When did you fix the price which you were to get?-He fixed the price when he paid us.

1266. Did you ever object to the price which he fixed?-Many a time.

1267. You made that objection at settling day?-Yes.

1268. What did he when you asked for a larger price?-He told us that we should have no more, and that we were in duty bound to fish for him.

1269. Had Mouat a shop?-Yes; his shop was at the Moul of Channerwick, close to my house.

1270. Are there many fishermen living close by there?-There are a good many, and almost all men are fishermen.

1271. Do they live near that shop?-Yes.

1272. How many houses may be there, or about that neighbourhood?-I think there are about nineteen of them close together.

1273. Are there many more houses at a little distance?-There are no more at that particular place, but in the town of Levenwick, about a mile to the south of the Moul, there are more.

1274. Is there another shop there?-No.

1275. Do the Levenwick people come to the Channerwick shop?- Yes.

1276. What did you get in Mouat's shop?-We got the goods he pleased to give us.

1277. Did you get the goods you wanted?-No; we did not get the goods we wanted. We could just get the goods he had.

1278. What did you get?-We sometimes got a [Page 26] little tea and cotton and anything we asked for that was there. If it was there for us to get it was very well; but if it was not there, we had to walk home without, and we could get no money to buy it with.

1279. How could you get no money?-Because he would not give it to us on any consideration at all.

1280. Did you often ask for?-Every year and every time.

1281. What do you mean by every time?-Every time we came to that store when we thought his goods were not a bargain for us to take we asked for some money to go somewhere else and get a better bargain; but of course we were denied it. We could get none.

1282. Did you never get an advance of money from the time the fishing began, until settling time?-No.

1283. Did you ever get any money from Mouat during the whole seventeen years you fished for him?-No.

1284. Did you not get money if there was, a balance over at settling time?-No.

1285. Do you swear that?-Yes, I do.

1286. Supposing that at the time of settling there was a balance due to you after paying your account at the shop and your rent did you not get, that in money?-No. I had to take it in goods or else go without.

1287. Were you told that you must take it in goods?-Yes; I could get no money.

1288. Did you generally take goods there and then or did you get them afterwards just as you wanted them?-Sometimes I got them as I wanted them and at other times I might take a little goods expecting that I would perhaps get a shilling of money along with them as I was in necessity for it; but I could not get any.

1289. Did you expect that you might get a shilling for the goods?-As I had a balance due I expected that I might get a shilling in money; and I did not take all the goods at one time but I took a little now when I required them, and a little the next time; and always when I came to the store I asked if I could not get a shilling in money because goods could not serve me every time.

1290. Did you sell the goods which you got from the shop in order to raise a little money?-Sometimes.

1291. Did you sell them to your neighbours?-I could not sell them to my neighbours, because they were in the same state as I was myself.

1292. Where did you sell them?-Sometimes we would take a little and fall in with a boy or a laddie, who would buy a bit of cloth from us, or the like of that, at a reduced price and thus help us to get a few shillings.

1293. To what boys or lads did you sell these goods?-Just to any lad that would buy them. Perhaps my own lad would be going elsewhere, such as to the sea, where he would be paid by a fee; and sometimes I would get a bit of goods and give it to my boy, and he would pay me for it with a few shillings out of his fee and that would serve my ends for the time.

1294. Had you anything to sell off your farm?-Yes.

1295. You sold a beast now and then?-Yes; but Mouat took the whole of them.

1296. Did he buy your beasts too?-Yes.

1297. Did you not have liberty to sell them to other people?-No, we had no liberty at all; because he said we were under the same obligation with regard to beasts and eggs and all the produce of our farms as we were under with regard to the fish, and therefore, if he got the one, he compelled us to give him the other too.

1298. When did he tell you that about the beasts and the eggs?- He told us about it in the same year that he took the tack.

1299. Did you ever try to sell them to another?-Yes, I tried that sometimes.

1300. To whom did you try to sell them?-To any one who came round asking for such things; but I knew that if I did such a thing, and Mouat came to know about it, I must be prepared to take to my heels and fly.

1301. Did you ever actually sell any of the produce of your farm to another than Mouat?-I never sold any, except one little horse; and I sold it when I was in starvation for meal. That was towards the end of Mouat's tack.

1302. How long ago was it?-I think it is two years past.

1303. Who did you sell it to?-I sold it to a man in the neighbourhood of Quarff.

1304. What was his name?-Andrew Jamieson, he lives at Quarff now.

1305. What did you get for it?-I got £2; it was a small beast

1306. Did Mouat know that you had sold that beast to Jamieson?-Yes, and as soon as he heard about it he sent for me, and told me what he was determined to do, and that I might prepare myself for going.

1307. How long was that before he failed?-I think I only paid one year after that.

1308. Do you mean that there was only one settlement with him after that?-Yes.

1309. When you were making your settlements, I suppose it was the previous Whitsunday and Martinmas rents that you settled for at each?-Yes.

1310. How long would it be before the settlement that you sold the horse?-I sold it after the settlement for the year. Mouat knew that I had a pony to sell and he wanted me to give it to him. I said that I would give him the pony as he told me I was bound to do it but he must bring me some meal, because it was a very bad season, and I could not sow down my ground. He would not bring me any meal and therefore I resolved that, whatever might happen to me whether I should be put out or not, I would sell my animal and procure a living for my house; and I did so.

1311. At what time of the year did you sell it?-In March.

1312. That would be shortly after the settlement?-Yes.

1313. How long was it after that when Mouat told you that you must leave?-Just about eight days-as soon as he heard it.

1314. But he did not turn you off?-No.

1315. Could he not have turned you off at the following Whitsunday term?-Yes; he could have turned me off then.

1316. But he did not do it?-No; because I went to the proprietor, Mr. Bruce, and told him what I had done, and what Mouat was going to do to me. I don't know what took place between Mr. Bruce and Mouat about that, but I did not get my warning?

1317. What did Mr. Bruce say to you about it when you saw him?-He said very little. I went to him, and also to the factor, Mr. Irvine, and told him about it. I got no satisfaction at the time, and therefore I expected I would be turned off; but in the end I was not put off the ground.

1318. That would be in the spring of 1870?-Yes.

1319. Have you paid any rent to Mr. Irvine or to Mr Bruce this year?-Yes; I paid my rent about six weeks ago.

1320. To whom do you deliver your fish now?-To any one I choose.

1321. Who did you fish for last season?-For Mr. Robertson.

1322. Where do you get your goods now?-I can get them from Mr. Robertson. He bought Mouat's store in Channerwick.

1323. Do you still get your goods there?-Yes.

1324. Are you bound to get them there?-We are not bound particularly, because if we ask Mr. Robertson for a few shillings of money during the time we are fishing for him, we will get them.

1325. Have you got money from him since he took that store?- Yes; I got my rent from him this year.

1326. You mean, that you got money from him to pay your rent?- Yes.

1327. Can you mention the name of any person who [Page 27] was turned away for selling his fish or the produce of his farm to another merchant than during the seventeen years he held the tack?-I cannot mention any one particularly, except an old man who was turned off his farm; but that was a good while ago. His name was Henry Sinclair, in Levenwick. That occurred about the beginning of Mouat's tack.

1328. What was he turned out for?-For an 'outfall' about some fishing.

1329. What had he done with his fish?-It was his son that the thing occurred with.

1330. What had his son done?-His son got into some sort of dispute with Mouat about fishing, I can not tell what the cause of it was exactly; but Mouat gave him warning, and sent him off the property that he was staying on. Sinclair took a little bit of scattald outside of the premises, and built a house on it, and he is living there in a very mean condition.

1331. Did the other people in the neighbourhood take that case as a warning?-Yes.

1332. It frightened them, did it?-Yes; Shetland people are of that nature, to be frightened by such things-very much to their hurt.

1333. Do you know of any other person who was turned off in the same way?-No, I don't remember of any other person being turned off; because Mouat had no occasion to turn them off. They did not transgress his law.

1334. Do you know of any other who was threatened to be turned off?-Every one of us was threatened, the next man was threatened, and we were all threatened; so that we were frightened.

1335. Do you know of any person who sold his fish or his beasts or eggs to another than Mouat?-Towards the end of his tack, in the very last fishing when I fished for him, my family and I were in a state of starvation for want of meal. I have seen me out at sea under him for two days and part of a third, on two pounds of meal; and I saw that I must make some effort for a living, Accordingly I went to another store close by and gave them some of the fish I had caught, and got some meal from them. If Mouat's tack had continued longer, I have no doubt I would have been punished for that; but as it was nearly broken, he did not have it in his power to do me any hurt.

1336. Did Mouat speak to you about that?-Yes. There came a letter from him to the people in the neighbourhood, because some of them did take their liberty and go away.

1337. Was that in the last year of his tack?-Yes.

1338. What kind of letters were these?-They were letters from Mouat telling them not to prepare their turf or anything to keep them in their farms, because they had their warning to go. I got a letter as well as the rest.

1339. Did it refer to the fish that you had sold to the other merchant?-Yes.

1340. Have you got that letter?-I don't know. I don't know what became of it. I think I burnt it; but there ought to be letters in the neighbourhood that came from Mouat at that time.

1341. You said you did not get all the goods you wanted at Mouat's shop. What were the goods you asked for and could not get?-I generally asked for little tea.

1342. Could you not get that?-Yes, I always got that, and I could get a bit of cotton or anything out of the store that I wanted.

1343. Did you get the tackle you wanted for your fishing from him?-Yes.

1344. And clothes for your family?-I could get clothes for my family if I asked for them. Sometimes I did get a little clothing from him.

1345. Was it principally meal and tea that you got from Mouat?- Yes; and if his meal had been grain, it would have been good enough; but as it was, it was not fit for human food.

1346. You mean that it was not of good quality?-It was not; and we paid at the dearest rate for it.

1347. How do you know that?-Because we heard it from the storeman who sold it to us. Mouat had a storeman in the shop; and when we got the meal from him, he told us what the price of it was.

1348. Had you a pass-book?-We sometimes had a pass-book, but it was not always taken there; and besides, the storeman was not very willing to be bothered with it.

1349. Did you ever ask the price of meal and tea in Lerwick?- Yes.

1350. Did you ever buy these articles in Lerwick when you happened to have some money?-Yes, sometimes when I had any money I did so; but it was very little money that ever I had, because where could we get it, when we could get no money at all for our fishing?

1351. Have you bought these articles in Lerwick within the last two or three years?-Yes.

1352. Did you find the Lerwick meal better and cheaper than what you got from Mouat?-Yes; the Lerwick meal was grain, but Mouat's meal was nothing but the refuse of the worst that was given to us poor fishing slaves.

1353. Then the complaint you have to make is only about what is past?-Yes; about how I was treated during the seventeen years I was under Mouat. I have nothing to say against Mr. Robert Bruce, or against Mr. Robertson either, with regard to our present condition.

1354. You are quite content with your way of dealing at present?-Yes, I have nothing to say against that, but I am frightened for the future.

1355. Have you a boat of your own?-No.

1356. How do you do for a boat?-I generally arrange with some fish-curer, and he procures me a boat, and takes a hire for it for the season.

1357. How much is the hire?-The hire, as a general rule, has been £2 for three months, or £3, 10s. for the whole season.

1358. Is that the way you did with Mr. Robertson last year?-Yes.

1359. You got goods at his store?-Yes.

1360. As many goods as you wanted during the fishing season?- Yes.

1361. And a little money when you asked for it?-Yes.

1362. How much money would you get at a time from him?-If I asked Mr. Robertson for 5s. or 2s. or 6s., I would get it, according as I asked for it.

1363. If you asked for the whole of your earnings in money, and took no goods out of Mr. Robertson's store, is it likely that you would get the money, so that you could go elsewhere and buy your goods?-I could not say anything about that, because I did not ask it.

1364. You don't wish to go anywhere else?-No; I have not tried that.

1365. Do you think the quality of Mr. Robertson's goods is better than Mouat's?-Oh, Mouat's was nothing at all.

1366. Have you any daughters in your family who knit?-I have two.

1367. Do they knit their own worsted?-Yes; they make worsted for themselves from the wool of our own sheep.

1368. Do they go into Lerwick to sell the articles they have made?-They do.

1369. To whom do they sell them?-To anybody; they do not knit for a merchant. They go to any merchant they choose and sell their shawls, because the worsted with which they are made is their own. If they go into one store with the shawl, and the price is not suitable, they go into the next one.

1370. How are they paid for their shawls?-They are paid in goods at any store where they can sell them.

1371. Do they ever ask for money?-They have asked for it often, but they have never got it; and therefore they say there is no use asking for it, because they know they won't get it.

1372. Are you satisfied with the value of the goods they get in exchange for their shawls?-Sometimes, but not always. Sometimes the goods which they get [Page 28] in exchange are not worth the value put upon them. Sometimes they get cottons for 10d. which are not worth above 8d.

1373. How do you know that?-Because I see the quality of them.

1374. Have they told you the price which the merchant has charged for them?-Yes; and sometimes when my daughters have knitted a shawl, and it is ready to go to the dresser, there may be no money in the house to pay for the dressing of it, and it has to be paid in money. I have known my daughters detained in that way for some days, until I went to a neighbour and borrowed a shilling to pay for the dressing of the shawl, or until I could sell something off the farm; and then, when the shawl was dressed, they went to the merchant with it and sold it to him for goods, according to the custom.

1375. Can your daughters not dress the shawls themselves?-No; they are shawl-makers, but not shawl-dressers. Their dresser is Mrs. Arcus, at the Docks.

1376. Is she the only dresser here?-No; there are other dressers than her, but she is the only one that my daughters go to.

1377. Would she not give them credit for the dressing?-No.

1378. She always requires ready money for that?-Yes; she might give credit to a girl living in the town, but I live sixteen miles from Lerwick, and she would not give credit to a party living at that distance.

1379. How long have your daughters knitted?-A long time now. There is one of them twenty-seven years of age, and she has knitted since she was about eighteen.

1380. Have you ever seen your daughters bring home money for their knitting?-No; I never saw a shilling come into our house in my life which had been got for a shawl. I have paid out several shillings for the dressing of the shawls but I never saw any money given in for them.

1381. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, GAVIN COLVIN, examined.

1382. Are you a fisherman?-Yes.

1383. Where?-In Levenwick, Sandwick parish.

1384. Was the ground there held in tack by Robert Mouat at one time?-Yes.

1385. How long have you been there?-I have been there all my life.

1386. What was your rent when you held your land under Mouat?-It was £4, excluding poor-rates and road money.

1387. That was what you paid to Mouat?-Yes.

1388. Then you knew what your rent was?-Yes. Of course he told us what our rent was.

1389. And it was accounted for at the settlement?-Yes. At the settlement he summed up our accounts, and told us we were due so much-so much for rent and so much for goods.

1390. Had you a pass-book?-No. He did not approve of pass-books.

1391. Did you take a note yourself of the goods you got, or did you just trust to the people at the store?-I trusted to the people at the store,-to his storekeeper.

1392. Have you been present during the examination of John Leask?-Yes.

1393. You have heard all that he said about the way of dealing, and about the store, and the quality of the goods?-Yes.

1394. Do you agree with all that he said?-Yes, I agree more particularly with what he said about the quality of the goods. The goods were very inferior at Mouat's store.

1395. You also agree with him in his description of the way of dealing with Mouat?-Yes.

1396. Do you also say that you were compelled to sell all your fish to him?-Yes. All our earnings, whether by sea or land, were in duty bound to his store. That was stated to us every year at the settlement.

1397. Was that stated to you by Mouat?-Yes. We were told that we were in duty bound to bring every iota of our produce, whether by sea or land, to his store.

1398. Did you ever get any letter threatening you for selling your fish or your goods to another than Mouat?-I never did, I got no letter, because I never got far forward as to require that treatment.

1399. You never got warning to go away?-No, but I was often told that I would get warning if I persisted in such things.

1400. Do you know of any of your neighbours having got such letters?-No; not in my neighbourhood.

1401. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement made by John Leask?-Nothing.

1402. Who were you fishing for last year?-For Mr. Robertson.

1403. Did you get goods at his store?-Yes.

1404. They were of better quality than those you got from Mouat?-Certainly they were.

1405. Do you get all the money you ask for?-I get what goods I require, and if I ask for money I will get it. At the settlement, if there is anything due to me I will get it; and if I don't have money for my rent, he will help me with it.

1406. But if you want all your balance in money, will you get it?- Yes. I got it last time. We are quite satisfied with Mr. Robertson according to the custom of the country.

1407. But are you satisfied with the custom of the country?-No; I don't agree with it.

1408. What do you want to be changed?-I am not prepared to say in the meantime.

1409. Do you want the price of your fish fixed in advance?-We would require that, I think, for some encouragement to us.

1410. Could you not get it fixed then, if you asked for it?-We have asked for it, but we have never got it yet.

1411. Who did you ask it from?-From the dealers we were fishing to, all along.

1412. But you have fished for no dealers except Mouat and Robertson?-No.

1413. Have you asked them to fix the price before?-Yes.

1414. Did they refuse your request?-Yes. They refused to state a price then, and said they would give the currency of the country at the end of the season.

1415. Have you asked them to pay for the fish as they were delivered?-No; I never asked them for that.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE PETRIE, examined.

1416. You come from the island of Fetlar?-Yes.

1417. Where do you live there?-In Aithness.

1418. Are you a married woman?-No.

1419. Do you live with your people?-Yes.

1420. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

1421. What do you knit?-Fine shawls and veils.

1422. Do you knit these articles with your own wool?-Yes.

1423. Do you make your own worsted, or buy it?-I buy wool, and make it.

1424. Where do you buy it?-From any person who sells it. There is a Mrs. Smith in Fetlar who sells wool. She lives at a place called Smithfield.

1425. Has she a shop?-No. They formerly had shop, but they don't have one now. She is a widow

1426. Has she any land?-Yes; she has a small farm. She has some sheep, and she obliges any person with wool who wants it.

1427. Do you always buy your wool from her?-[Page 29] Sometimes from her, and sometimes from any merchant I can get it from.

1428. Do you pay for it in money?-Yes; or in work.

1429. What kind of work?-Any kind of household work that they have to do. People employ others to do so much work, and give them wool for it.

1430. Do you mean work on their farms or ground-Yes; and they will give them wool in return, because the wool in Fetlar is so scarce.

1431. You knit on your own account, and sell what you knit?- Yes.

1432. Do you sell it to merchants in Fetlar?-No. There are no merchants in Fetlar who take it. I come down to Lerwick with it once a year.

1433. Do you then bring in with you all that you have knitted during the season?-Yes.

1434. How much will you bring?-It is not much; perhaps two or three shawls. I have had as high as five shawls when I came down. We have household work to attend to, and we cannot knit so fast as they do here in Lerwick.

1435. It is just part of your time that you can give?-Yes.

1436. Have you come down just now for the purpose of selling the articles you have knitted?-Yes.

1437. How many shawls did you bring with you this year?-Two.

1438. That is less than usual?-Yes.

1439. How do you get paid for your shawls?-I get goods out of the shop.

1440. Does the merchant fix the price 'for the shawl' when you take it in?-Yes.

1441. How much did you get for the two you brought down this time?-16s. for one, and 17s. for the other; and I had one belonging to another person that I got 19s. for.

1442. Who was the merchant that you sold them to?-Mr. Sinclair.

1443. What did you get for them?-Goods.

1444. Did you ask for money?-I did not ask for money, because it has been understood for many years back that they would not give any, and goods are marked on the paper that we get. When I come down I employ a person to dress the shawls, and then that person sells them for me in the shop, and I get back a note from her, stating the amount in goods that I am to get for them. I understand not to ask for money, because the thing is always in that form.

1445. When you get the note, do you hand it back at the shop and get the goods in return?-Yes.

1446. Have you got any of these notes?-No; I have got the goods for them, and I was preparing to return to Fetlar when I was summoned here.

1447. Is the note printed or written?-It is all written.

1448. Who is the dresser that you employ?-A Miss Robertson. I don't know where she lives. The woman I live with when in Lerwick-Mrs. Park, Charlotte Place-went with her when she sold the shawls.

1449. Do you never go to the shop and sell your own shawls?- Sometimes I do; but not this time.

1450. Did you ever go to the shop to sell your shawls, and ask to be paid in money?-No; because I understood I would get no money.

1451. Did you ever get any part of the balance in money?-None.

1452. What do you get in goods?-Any kind of soft goods which I want, and which are in the shop. If the goods I want are not in the shop, then they would say that they did not have them; and I would have to take something else.

1453. Is it just soft goods that are in the shop?-Yes.

1454. Not provisions?-No; not provisions.

1455. Is there any tea?-No.

1456. You go to the shop yourself for your goods, and hand your line in payment for them?-Yes.

1457. Could you the same goods in Fetlar?-I could get the goods in Fetlar if I had money to give for them; but I could not get money for shawls or veils in Fetlar.

1458. But if you had the money, could you get the goods as good and cheap in Fetlar as in Lerwick?-Yes; they are very cheap in Fetlar. Messrs. Hay Co. have a shop there.

1459. And you think you could get your goods as good and cheap there as you can in Lerwick?-Yes.

1460. And of course you would not have to carry them back with you?-No.

1461. Are there many people in Fetlar who knit the same way as you do, and come in to Lerwick to sell their shawls?-Yes; there are a good many people who knit in the same way that I do, and come down here with their shawls, because there is no other way of disposing of them.

1462. Do they get their payment in the same way?-So far as I know, they do.

1463. Do they always get goods for their lines when they come down?-Yes.

1464. Will they not get a line to come down at another time for the goods?-No; I don't think they would get them in that way.

1465. Suppose you did not want the whole amount of your line in goods at one time, could you not take the line home with you, and when you happened to be again in Lerwick might you not get the balance in any kind of goods you wanted that were in the shop?- Yes; and I could get the goods at any time if I were to send down the line.

1466. Is that sometimes done?-I have never done it; but I suppose the merchants would do it.

1467. Did you ever know of a line being sold to another for money, or for another kind of goods?-No; I never did that myself, and I don't know of it being done.

1468. Is it all drapery that you are taking back?-Yes.

1469. Then you will have about £2 or £3 worth of it this time?- Yes.

1470. Do you want all that for your own use?-The girl for whom I sold one of the shawls will get her share of it.

1471. But when you brought down five shawls you might have twice as much to take back as you have this time?-It is not very much that they give for the shawls sometimes; and once, when I came down from Fetlar and had to pay the freight, I had to take what they would give me; and I could not get what I asked.

1472. Is it all stuff for, your own use that you are taking back, in exchange for your own, shawls which you sold?-Yes.

1473. Do you want the goods?-Yes.

1474. Are you to use them for yourself?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET TULLOCH, examined.

1475. You live in Lerwick

1476. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants here?-Yes.

1477. Do you buy your own wool?-For about eighteen months I have bought it.

1478. Before that, how did you do?-I knitted for Mr. Robert Linklater.

1479. You got the wool from him and knitted it, and took back the articles to him?-Yes.

1480. When you got the wool from him, in what way were you paid?-In goods.

1481. Had you a pass-book?-Yes.

1482. Have you got it with you?-Yes. [Produces it]

1483. The goods you got at the shop are entered in the first part of the book, and then at the end there are entries of the knitted work which you have brought back to the shop?-Yes; I knitted a great deal before I took the pass-book out at all.

1484. The knitting begins on July 7th, 1869, and the goods begin in November 1866, and there was balance due for knitting of £3, 17s., 10d., which is not entered in the book at all: how do you explain in that?-It was them who always made up the book.

[Page 30]

1485. Had you a pass-book for goods before this?-I knitted a long time before I took a pass-book.

1486. When did you begin to knit?-I cannot remember how many years it is ago. I had knitted for two or three years to Mr. Linklater before I got the book.

1487. Are the goods which are entered here just for your own use?-No; I sold some tea and got money for it, for I could not get money out of the shop.

1488. I see that in, 1867, on January 3d, you have, Tea 1s. 10d.; 24th, 9d.; 26th, tea 11d., tea 11d., 1s. 10d: does the last entry mean that you got two separate parcels of tea, each 11d.?-It may have been that; I cannot exactly say.

1489. How much tea would you get for 11d.?-A quarter of a pound.

1490. Then you got two quarter pounds on one day?-I suppose so. One would be for my own use and the other not.

1491. What would the other be for?-I would likely sell the other, in order to get money for it.

1492. Who do you generally sell it to?-I cannot remember who I sold it to. Sometimes there would be men coming to the house to buy, tea, and I supplied them.

1493. What kind of men were these?-Men come from the country and want to have some tea made and I supply them with it because I have it in the house.

1494. Do you keep lodgers?-I have very few lodgers; but sometimes people come from the country and want tea made for them, although they do not stay all night.

1495. Why, did they not stay all night?-Because they went home.

1496. Was it part of your business to take in people and give them tea?-No; but they would come into the house and get tea made, and then go out and do their errands.

1497. Then they came to your house to get refreshments?-Yes.

1498. And they sometimes paid you for the which they got?-Yes; I was always paid for the tea which I gave them in that way.

1499. Did you sell it to them in quarter pounds or smaller quantities?-Smaller quantities.

1500. Do you make a profit off that?-I get money for that, but I cannot say that I make a profit. Sometimes I had people working for me, to whom I gave a quarter pound of tea.

1501. When you got two quarter pounds, would you sell one quarter entire?-Yes. When people were working for me, then I had to give them a quarter of a pound of tea in order to pay them, because I did not have money to give them.

1502. What people had you working for you?-I have sometimes been sick, and I have had a person attending upon me, because I am not healthy; and I had to pay these persons in tea.

1503. Are you a married woman?-No.

1504. Have you a house of your own?-Yes; a room.

1505. The entries in this book only come down to February 1870. Have you had no book since then?-No.

1506. Have you still been dealing with Mr. Linklater?-No; I have been working for myself with my own worsted. That was when I stopped knitting for him.

1507. I see an entry on September 9th 1868, Tea 10d., tea 8d., 1s. 6d.: would these be two quarter pounds of tea of different quality?-Sometimes they would be that, and sometimes not.

1508. But I am speaking of that particular entry. Was it so in that, case?-I cannot remember.

1509. But when you got tea at 10d. and tea at 8d., that must have been two quarter pounds of different qualities?-Yes; I would get better tea, and tea that was not so good.

1510. When you got them on the same day, would you be intending to sell one of them?-Yes.

1511. Is that a common practice, to get two quarter pounds of tea and to sell one of them, or to get several quarter pounds in payment for your shawl?-No; I just got it as I asked for it.

1512. Have you sold anything else besides tea which you got from the shop?-Yes, cottons and some moleskins which I had to take out of the shop in order to pay my rent.

1513. I don't see any moleskins marked here?-No; they are not in that book.

1514. Had you any other book?-No; it was when I sold my own shawls that I took the moleskins.

1515. You say you buy your own wool: where do you buy it?- There is a woman who spins it for me. I buy it in worsted.

1516. Do you pay her for it in money?-Yes.

1517. And you sell your shawls to any merchant who will buy them?-Yes.

1518. How are you paid for them?-I sold the last two to Miss Robina Leisk.

1519. Is she a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

1520. Has she a shop?-Yes.

1521. How were you paid for these shawls?-I got £2, 14s. for the two-27s. apiece.

1522. Were you paid in money?-No.

1523. Were they fine shawls?-Yes

1524-5. Did you get any part of that sum in money?-14s.

1526. Was that all you asked for in money?-Yes.

1527. And you got the rest in goods?-Yes.

1528. Did you want these goods for your own use?-No; I took some moleskins to sell.

1529. Was that because you could not get the rest in money?- Yes.

1530. Did you ask for more in money?-She did not want to give me more.

1531. Did you ask for more?-I did not ask for it, because I knew I would not get it.

1532. Did she say she would give you that much, without your asking?-Yes.

1533. What did you do with the moleskins?-I sold them.

1534. How much of them did you take?-21/2 yards.

1535. What was the price of them?-2s. 8d. a yard.

1536. Was there anything else you bought for the purpose of selling?-Yes; I bought some cotton.

1537. Have you sold it?-Yes.

1538. Did you get as much for it as you paid?-Yes.

1539. Did you get a little more?-No; no more. I thought it a favour to get the same price.

1540. Did you know any person who would take these goods from you at the time you got them, or did you buy them on the chance of selling them?-No; I knew a person who would buy them from me.

1541. Is that the way you generally deal when you have shawls to sell?-Yes.

1542. You get some things that you want, and some things that your neighbours want, and as much as you can in money?-Yes.

1543. Do you often get tea for the purpose of selling it?-I get it when I ask it; but I only ask it when I know of a person who will take it from me for what they have done for me.

1544. How do you purchase the provisions-the meal and bread- that you want?-When I sell anything that I get for my work, I buy them with the money.

1545. But if you don't have the money, what do you do?-I don't have money at the time, I go down to a shop and get it from them until I can get the money to pay for it.

1546. What did you do with the 14s. that you got for the shawls from Miss Leisk?-It would go for worsted to make other things.

1547. Have you always to pay money for your worsted?-Yes.

1548. You don't get provisions, either meal or bread, at the shops where you sell your shawls?-No.

1549. Is that never done in Lerwick?-No; I never had it done to me. Those who buy the shawls keep nothing of that kind.

1550. Would you be content to take a lower price [Page 31] for your shawls if you were paid for them in money instead of goods?-Yes.

1551. Have the merchants ever offered you a lower price for your shawls in money?-No.

1552. Have you ever asked them to do that, or tried to get them to do it?-I knew that I need not try that, because I would not have got it.

1553. Do you manage to sell many of your shawls privately in the town, or to visitors in the summer?-No.

1554. Is there not a good deal of that done in Lerwick?-I believe some people do that, but I don't do it.

1555. Is it not an advantage to get them sold in that way?-Yes; I think it would be an advantage to get ready money.

1556. Do charitable ladies sometimes take the shawls-and get them sold to their friends at a distance?-I can say nothing about that, because I never sold them in that way.

1557. Do you give receipts for the goods or money which you get as the price of your shawls?-No.

1558. The transaction is all done across the counter, without any writing?-Yes.

1559. Do you know whether the shopkeeper enters the price of the shawls, and the amount of the goods sold to you in return for them, in any book? Do you see whether that is done?-No, I don't see it.

1560. You have never noticed that?-No.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY HUTCHISON, examined.

1561. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.

1562. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

1563. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.

1564. Do you sell your knitting in Lerwick?-I sell some of it in Lerwick; but I send the most of it south, to Mr. John F. White, Edinburgh.

1565. Do you also act as an agent for him in Lerwick, by taking in things from other people?-Yes; a little.

1566. How are you paid for the articles you send to him?-I am paid in ready money.

1567. Is it remitted to you by a post office order or a bank cheque, as the case may be?-Yes.

1568. How much do you send to him?-I never send a large quantity. I just send what he tells me: a few shawls at a time.

1569. He gives you orders which you execute?-Yes.

1570. Do many women who knit come and sell their shawls to you?-No; I don't buy shawls. I give out wool to be knitted.

1571. How do you purchase your wool?-I buy it for money.

1572. From merchants in Lerwick?-Yes. Sometimes I buy from Mr. Sinclair, but generally I send to the North Isles for it, to people who buy it in there.

1573. There are people in the North Isles who buy the wool from their neighbours and sell it to you, such as Mrs. Smith, who was spoken of by a previous witness?-Yes; much the same.

1574 Have you dealt with her?-No.

1575. Do you pay the women who work for you in money?-Yes.

1576. You don't keep a store?-No, nothing except the money; or whatever they require they got it.

1577. Do you make a bargain when you give out the wool, or fix price when you see the work?-I buy the wool, and employ them to knit it.

1578. You do not merely act as agent for Mr. White?-No; I just buy the wool and employ the women, and pay them according to the size of the shawl.

1579. How many women are working for you in that way?-I cannot say exactly.

1580. Are there about half a dozen?-Yes, just about that.

1581. Do you find that the women here are anxious to work for you?-Yes; they are anxious to get money.

1582. You think they would much rather work, for you than for a merchant who keeps a shop?-Yes; I am never at a loss for them. When I am in a hurry I always get them to help me, because I pay in money.

1583. I suppose you get the choice of the knitters?-I don't know about that. I just get done what I have to do.

1584. Have you often been applied to by women who were anxious to work for you rather than for the shops?-Yes; very often.

1585. Do they tell you that it is a kindness or charity to employ them?-Yes; because they could not get the money out of the shops.

1586. Do you know, from your own observation of the system, as to the mode of dealing at the shops?-I often sell shawls in the shops, although I am not in the habit of going with them myself, so that I am often dealing a little in the shops.

1587. You send them by some other person?-Yes: I employ a girl to go and sell them for me.

1588. In that case, how is the transaction carried out?-I just get a line out of the shop, and get goods for it.

1589. Is the line in your name?-No; it is just a simple line or I O U, and I send it back: to the shop at any time when I want the goods.

1590. Have you any of these lines with you?-I have one at home, which I will send in.

1591. From whom did you get it?-From Mr Robert Sinclair.

1592. Have you sometimes got these lines from knitters?-Yes; often.

1593. They wanted money, and could not get it at the shops, and brought their lines to you?-Yes; I have often taken a line and given them money for it in order to meet their necessities, because they would not get money elsewhere.

1594. You kept these lines until you could make some use of them yourself?-Yes. Whenever I required any little thing, I sent to the shop for it, and paid for it with these lines.

1595. Have you any of these lines belonging to other women in your hands just now?-I have not.

1596. How much money may you have had lying out in that way at a time?-Not very much; perhaps a few shillings now and then.

1597. Are the lines generally for a large amount?-No; from 8s. to 7s. or 8s., or thereabout.

1598. May you have had two or three of them at a time?-Perhaps one or two.

1599. Have you known other, people taking lines in the same way?-Yes;, I believe there are many who do it.

1600. Do you know any one who is often applied to in that way?- I cannot say exactly; but I have often taken a line from Miss Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined on Monday, and given her money for it, because she was in necessity.

1601. Does Janet Irvine knit for you?-Yes.

1602. Have you taken lines, from her?-No; she is a fish-girl, and does not knit much.

1603. In selling your own shawls to the shops, have you asked for money?-No; but I have told the girl who went with the shawls to sell them for me to ask for a shilling or two, and she said she need not ask for it because she would not get it.

1604. But that was a case of sale. You know nothing about the case where, the wool has been given out by the shops?-No, I don't know about that, because it is long since I knitted any for the shops.

1605. Do you know of any other person in Lerwick who sends hosiery south in the same way?-Yes; there are plenty of them through the town.

1606. Do they send the hosiery, south direct to White or to other merchants in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-Yes; there are, plenty who do that; but I never have any dealings with any one except Mr. White.

1607. Who else in Lerwick deals in that way with [Page 32] the shops in the south?-There is a Mrs. James Henry in Burn's Lane, and a Mrs. Elizabeth Anderson, and several other people.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE BORTHWICK, examined.

1608. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-I am.

1609. Do you buy your own wool?-No.

1610. Who do you knit for?-For Mr. Robert Sinclair, Mr. Thomas Nicholson, and sometimes for Miss Robina Leisk.

1611. Have you books with all these people

1612. Have you any pass-book at all?-No.

1613. You get the wool weighed out to you, and you take back the article which has been ordered?-Yes.

1614. What articles do you knit?-Veils, shawls, neckties, ladies' scarfs, and the like.

1615. How long have you been doing business in that way?- About fifteen years.

1616. How are you paid?-Just in goods from the shops.

1617. You take an article which you have made to the shop, and tell them what the price is?-No; they price it themselves.

1618. Do they price it when the material is given out to you?-No; they price it when the article is brought to them again.

1619. When they have fixed the price, what takes place?-I can get anything out of their shop in the shape of goods that I ask for, only I cannot get any money.

1620. Do you not get part of the price in money?-No; I have never any money from Mr. Sinclair, except perhaps 5s., for the whole fourteen years I have wrought for him.

1621. Do you get money from other dealers you have mentioned?-I have got a little money from Mr. Thomas Nicholson; but it is not long since he began business for himself.

1622. Do you often go into the shops with articles worth about 10s?-Yes.

1623. How much of that do you get in money?-I have never got any money from Mr. Sinclair at all. It is about seven years since I asked him for 1s., and he would not give it me, and I have not asked since.

1624. Can you only get dry goods and tea at the shops?-I can get tea, and soap, and soda, and blue, and starch, and the like of that.

1625. How do you get your food?-I have a father, who buys it for me.

1626. You live with your father, and get your food with the family?-Yes; what his wages can bring in.

1627. Is that the only way you have of getting a living?-No; sometimes I have to take things out of the shop and sell them for money.

1628. To whom do you sell them?-To any neighbour or any person who requires them.

1629. Do you do that often?-No; I have not done it for the last two years, because some of the ladies in the town have employed me to knit for money.

1630. Do you prefer to sell to ladies in the town?-Yes.

1631. Are the goods which you knit for them for their own use?- Yes; or perhaps they get an order from the south, and they will rather put the money our way than go to the merchants with it.

1632. Do many ladies befriend you in that way?-Not many. There is Mrs. Walker, the Rev. Mr. Walker's lady.

1633. Who else?-I have not done anything for any other person for money.

1634. But Mrs. Walker pays you in money?-Yes; and the same amount as I would get in goods from the shops.

1635. Are the women who knit anxious to get customers of that kind?-Yes.

1636. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if you could get it in cash?-Yes.

1637. Have you ever been to take a lower price and get the money?-No.

1638. Have you ever offered to take less for your shawls if you could get money?-Yes.

1639. To whom did you make that offer?-I offered a white half- shawl to Mr. Robert Sinclair, and I also offered a white half-shawl to Mr. Thomas Nicholson.

1640. When?-The one I sold to Mr. Nicholson was in the spring, and that to Mr. Sinclair was about two years back.

1641. How much less did you offer to take in these cases?-2s. The shawl was worth £1, and I offered it for 18s.

1642. Was anything due to you by Mr. Sinclair at the time you asked for the shilling?-Yes; I think he was due me about 5s. 6d. at that time.

1643. Do you mean that you took goods to the shop worth 5s. 6d.?-No; he was due me about 5s., 6d. at that time. I was knitting a shawl for him, and was settling up for it.

1644. Was the shawl not finished?-Yes; I brought the shawl ready, and I was settling up. I had all the price of the shawl to get, and I took some goods, and then there was about 5s. 6d. over; and I asked him for 1s., and he said he could not give it to me.

1645. How did you square the balance at that time?-I just took something to give to a girl who had been working in our peats.

1646. What did you take?-A petticoat.

1647. Was it worth. 5s. 6d.?-Yes; the girl took it because she knew I could not get the money.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS. MARGERY MANSON or ANDERSON, examined.

1648. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.

1649. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have done so for the last twelve months.

1650. Before that, who did you knit for?-For Mr. Robert Linklater.

1651. You got wool from him?-Yes.

1652. Were you paid for your work in goods, or in money?-In goods.

1653. Did you get any money from him that you asked for, if you, wanted some?-I knew that I need not ask him for any, because I would not have got it.

1654. You are married, and therefore you don't spend all your time in knitting?-No.

1655. Why did you give up knitting for Mr. Linklater?-Because I could not do with it; it did not pay me.

1656. How did it not pay you?-I could not get money.

1657. But were the goods you got not as good you as money?- No.

1658. Were they not worth the money value that was put upon them?-No.

1659. Why was that?-I did not have money to live upon.

1660. But your husband keeps you?-No; he is sickly, and I have to do for myself.

1661. You have heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses, Catherine Borthwick and Margaret Tulloch?-Yes.

1662. They have explained the way of dealing here. Is that the way you have been accustomed to?-Yes.

1663. Have you anything different to say about the way in which you were paid for shawls that you knitted with Mr. Linklater's wool?-No.

1664. Did you ever get lines when you would not take goods?- No; I had a pass-book.

1665. Have you got it here?-No.

1666. Was it kept in the same way as Margaret Tulloch's?-Yes.

1667. The goods you got were entered at one end, and the shawls you gave in were entered at the other, and a balance was made now and then?-Yes.

[Page 33]

1668. How often was your book balanced?-I don't remember.

1669. Did you sign your pass-book as a receipt?-No; he signed it.

1670. You have had no pass-book since you began to knit with your own wool?-No.

1671. Where do you buy your wool now?-I have a woman spinning for me, and I buy the worsted from her.

1672. You pay her in ready money?-Yes.

1673. Do you sell your shawls to any person in particular?-Yes; to Mr Robert Sinclair.

1674. Are you paid for them in goods?-Yes, and a little in money. I always get some money from him to buy the worsted with.

1675. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if you were paid in money?-Yes.

1676. Have you ever asked to get it all in money, and offered to take less?-No.

1677. Do you ever sell shawls to ladies or to any person not in the trade?-No; Mr. Robert Sinclair has bought them all from me.

1678. Have you ever asked for more money from any of the merchants than they would give you?-No.

1679. Have you ever got lines?-Yes, I got lines from Mr. Sinclair.

1680. When?-When I gave in my articles.

1681. And when you did not happen to want goods?-Yes.

1682. Have you got any of these lines?-No.

1683. What did you do with them?-I gave them back when I got the goods.

1684. Was that long ago?-No, not long ago; it was when I sold my last shawl to him.

1685. Would that be a month or two?-Yes.

1686. Was a line given to you for the whole price of the shawl that you were selling, or was it only for the balance?-27s., was the price of the shawl.

1687. How much of that did you take in goods?-I took about one half of it, and I got a line for the rest.

1688. Did you take the line out in goods afterwards-Yes.

1689. You did not think of asking money for the line?-No; I never asked money at that time.

1690. Did you ever know of people selling their lines to their neighbours?-No.

1691. Or dealing with them in any way, or letting their neighbours get goods for them?-No.

1692. How much of the 27s., the price of your last shawl, did you get in money?-7s.

1693. When was that?-I think about two months ago, I do not recollect exactly.

1694. Was the 7s. all that you asked for?-Yes; I asked for the 7s. and he said he would give it to me.

1695. Did you take 4s. or 5s, worth of goods at the same time?- Yes; or perhaps more.

1696. And the rest in a line?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, JEMIMA SANDISON, examined.

1697. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.

1698. Do you knit with your own wool?-No.

1699. Do you knit for merchants in the town?-Yes; for Mr. Robert Sinclair.

1700. Have you a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]

1701. Do you deal with Mr Sinclair in the way which has been described already by the Witnesses you have heard?-No.

1702. Do you deal in a different way?-Yes.

1703. How is that? You get wool from him to knit into shawls or veils?-Yes; chiefly veils.

1704. The goods you get are entered in the passbook you have produced, and the goods given in are entered at the end of it?- Yes.

1705. Are the goods supplied to you always goods which you are requiring for your own use?-Yes.

1706. You do not sell any of them, or get them for your neighbours?-No; unless such goods as my own family require.

1707. Do you live with your own family?-Yes; with my mother.

1708. Do you get part of the payment for your shawls and veils in money?-Yes; whenever I ask money I get it. I never asked a shilling from Mr. Sinclair himself but that I always got it.

1709. When you got money for a shawl, how was it entered in the book?-I cannot say anything about that.

1710. If you were to take two veils to Mr. Sinclair and ask the money for them, do you think you would get it?-I cannot say, because I never asked it; but whenever I asked for a small quantity of money, such as 2s. or the like of that, I got it.

1711. What quantity of goods did you generally take at a time?-I cannot say that either. I don't think I ever had money to get out of his book. I was always due him something, and in that way I could not ask him for money.

1712. Then your account was larger than the value of the articles which you took to him?-Yes.

1713. If that was so, did you ever ask him for money at all?-Yes; sometimes, when I was in a strait for money I asked him for a little, and I got it.

1714. Then that was an advance, which he made when there was nothing due to you?-Yes; I have asked him for money when I was due him.

1715. But you don't know how that was entered in the pass-book, or whether it was entered there at all?-No; I don't think it was entered.

1716. I see there are entries in your pass-book: April 28, 1871, cash 1s.; April 26, cash 6d.: is that the way the money was entered?-Yes.

1717. There is an entry of worsted, 5d. was that worsted given to you for the purpose of knitting shawls to Mr. Sinclair?-I asked for worsted to buy, and I got it to knit for myself, and to sell again.

1718. Then it is entered in the pass-book just as goods?-Yes.

1719. Is there any difficulty made about giving you worsted in that way and entering it in the pass-book?-No; whenever I ask for worsted, I get it the same as any other thing out of the shop.

1720. Were you ever told that worsted was a money article?-No; I never was told that, so far as I can remember.

1721. Have you dealt in any other shop than Mr. Sinclair's in this way?-No; I have knitted for two and a half years for Mr, Sinclair.

1722. And always in the same way?-Yes.

1723. Are you a North Unst woman?-Yes.

1724. Do you live in Lerwick by yourself?-I live with my mother and my two sisters in a room.

1725. Does your mother knit?-No; she spins.

1726. Does she spin your wool?-No; she gets wool from other people to spin, and gets money for her work. She only spins for those who employ her.

1727. Does she spin for the shops?-No; she spins generally for ladies in the town, who employ her to make worsted for them.

1728. Ask her employers altogether ladies, not merchants?-They are just merchants' wives, and ladies in the town-chiefly Dr. Cowie's lady.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS ANN ARCUS, examined.

1729. You are a dresser in Lerwick?-Yes.

1730. How do you carry on that business? What is the nature of it?-I sometimes make shawls myself, and sell them. There [producing it] is a line of mine, which I got from Mr. Sinclair.

1731. Do you dress shawls or make them?-I dress shawls, and sometimes I make them or get them made.

1732. What is the dressing business?-Washing the shawls, and stretching them on the grass, and mending [Page 34] them and making them ready for the market. The stitches sometimes give way when they are stretched and then I mend them.

1733. Do you also bleach the shawls?-We whiten them with brimstone.

1734. You do that before stretching them on the grass?-Yes.

1735. That is part of the washing process?-Yes.

1736. Does every shawl, after being knitted require to be so dressed before it is sold?-Yes.

1737. The merchants don't buy shawls until after they are dressed?-No.

1738. Are your transactions in dressing shawls always with the knitters, or are they sometimes with the merchants?-Sometimes they are with the merchants, and sometimes with the knitters.

1739. Then the merchants do buy shawls undressed?-No; they do not buy them undressed, but they send some shawls out to be worked for themselves; and it is these shawls I dress for them

1740 In that way a knitter who works for a merchant has nothing to do with you?-No.

1741. When she has knitted a shawl with wool supplied by the merchant, she takes it to the merchant, and he sends it to you to be dressed?-Yes.

1742. It is only the knitters who work with their own wool who come to you?-Yes.

1743. Do you also buy shawls from knitters yourself?-No; but I get shawls made in the same way as the merchants do, and then I sell them.

1744. To whom do you sell them?-To the merchants.

1745. Do you send any shawls south?-No.

1746. Do you sometimes sell knitted articles to the merchants on behalf of the knitters?-Yes.

1747. When a knitter brings you a shawl to dress, I suppose she pays you in money?-Yes.

1748. What is the usual for that?-There are different charges, according to the size of the shawl; but for the general run of them it is 6d.

1749. And that is always paid by the knitter to you in money?- Yes.

1750. In what way is it that you are sometimes asked to sell articles for the knitters?-Because I cannot always have them dressed and ready for them to sell after the time they come in with the goods and before they go away again. These women come from the country, and I cannot have their things ready before they want to go home again; and therefore I sell them for them before they come back.

1751. You sell them as their agent?-Yes.

1752. And then you account to them for the price?-Yes. I get the price from some of the merchants, but others mark it in their books, and don't give lines. These merchants mark down the price of the shawl, and the name of the woman who owns it.

1753. And she, when she comes to the merchant again, arranges with him as to the price?-Yes.

1754. Is it within your knowledge that these shawls are always paid for in goods?-The country girls don't want money, and don't ask it. It is always clothing they need, and they get it.

1755. Then they just knit for the purpose of supplying themselves with clothing?-Yes.

1756. How is it that they don't want money?-They have some other way of doing at home, and I suppose they only want their clothing from the shops in Lerwick.

1757. Then the knitting with them is an extra sort of employment?-Yes; it is not exactly a livelihood for them.

1758. Is that the case with the town girls too?-No; they generally depend on their knitting for a living.

1759. Do they regard it as a hardship not to get money?-I can only speak for myself, not for them. When I have a shawl of my own, and ask some money on it, I get it.

1760. Do the town girls come to you to sell their articles for them?-No; they sell their own work themselves. I dress the shawls for them, and they get the price themselves-sometimes in money I suppose, to pay me with.

1761. You think they get sufficient money for their shawls from the merchants, to pay your charge?-They get money somewhere to pay me with: whether it is their own money or not I don't know. I don't take anything but money.

1762. You give them credit sometimes until their shawl is sold?- Yes.

1763. And then they come back you with the charge for dressing?-Yes.

1764. You shown me a line: where did you get it?-I got it in Mr. Robert Sinclair's shop-I think from his clerk.

1765. When?-When I sold my shawl-a shawl of my own, which I knitted myself.

1766. You did not want anything particular at the time, and therefore you took the line: was that so?-No. I asked him for a little money on the shawl, and I got it; and then I got the line, so that I could buy what I required afterwards as I needed it.

1767. Did you ask for money?-Yes; I asked for a little, and I got the sum which is marked on the line as having been paid to me in cash.

1768. He gave you 6s. in cash?-Yes.

1769. Was that all you wanted?-Yes. I did not ask for that sum, I only said I wanted a little money, he gave that.

1770. The line, is in these terms: 'C Z 91-Cr. bearer value in goods twenty six shillings 26s. stg. 'To cash 6s; to Vict. tartan 4s. 7d. ' ' White cotton, 6d.; wincey, 2s. 10d. ' ' Grey cotton, 6d. 'R. SINCLAIR & CO. 'C. S. '28.12.71'

This was last Thursday?-Yes.

1771. Was the shawl with your own?-Yes.

1772. Then it was just a sale to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

1773. You got 6s. in cash and 8s. 5d. in goods, and the rest is still due?-Yes, for me to get when I require it.

1774. Is that a usual way of doing business in Lerwick?-Yes; but I have got the whole of the price in money from a merchant for a shawl when asked for it-not for myself, but for a country girl.

1775. From whom have you got it all in money?-From Mr William Johnston. The price was 20s.

1776. Is he a hosiery dealer, just in the same way as Sinclair & Co., and Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. Linklater?-Yes. I have had money from them all whenever I asked for it.

1777. Would the women get money from them if they were selling the shawls themselves?-I cannot answer for that. I don't know that they would.

1778. Is it not the fact that the reason why you are sometimes asked to sell shawls for these women is that you can get the money for them?-I don't ask any money for the country girls at all; they never asked me to seek it.

1779. Do not the girls employ you to sell their shawls because they think you may get some money from the merchants, when they would not?-It is just because they think I can get a better price; at least that is what I think is the reason. They don't bid me get money.

1780. Do you think the merchants give you a better price?-They think so.

1781. Perhaps you can make a better bargain for them?-They have that idea.

1782. Have you never been asked by a country girl to sell a shawl for her and to get money for it?-Never.

1783. Then, on the occasions when you have got money, it has been for shawls which you have sold either for yourself or for town girls?-Yes, but particularly for my self.

1784. Have you sold them for town girls, and got money for them?-No; I have never asked money for any person but myself, and I have always got it.

[Page 35]

1785. How many shawls may you sell for yourself in the course of a year?-Sometimes there may be two.

1786. May there sometimes be three?-I could not tell the number particularly, but I have always one or two in the course of the twelvemonth.

1787. I suppose you are chiefly engaged with your dressing business, and have not much time to knit shawls?-Yes; the dressing is my only way of living.

1788. Are you a widow?-Yes.

1789. Have you often got lines similar to the one you have now produced?-Yes. Whenever I sell a shawl to Mr. Sinclair I get these lines, and then I give them to the girls to whom the shawls belong.

1790. Then they don't always want the value of their shawls in goods, but they sometimes take a line-Yes; and they keep it until they want something else. They are always served with what they want when they come with a line.

1791. You have not a pass-book with any of the merchants?-No.

1792. I suppose pass-books are only used where girls knit with the merchants wool?-Yes.

1793. Do you keep a pass-book with any of the merchants for the shawls which you dress for them?-No; I just get the money.

1794. Are you paid for them at the time?-Yes.

1795. Will the merchant send you a large consignment of shawls at a time to be dressed?-Yes; sometimes he may send a good lot.

1796. And you return the lot you have got when they are finished, and get paid for them when you return them?-Yes; in money.

1797. There is nothing entered in any book between you about that?-No.

1798. Are you the largest dresser in Lerwick?-I don't know that I am.

1799. Are there any others in the business?-Yes; there are a good many.

1800. Do they live mostly at the Docks?-No; there are one or two dressers who live at the Docks. They don't do so much as I do, but Mr. Sinclair has dressers of his own who do more than I.

1801. Does he pay them day's wages?-No; I think he pays them just as they work for him. The veils, neckties, and scarfs go by dozens.

1802. Is that the way you charge for these things?-I charge 11s. 6d. for a dozen veils, and the same for a dozen neckties or scarfs. I charge 6d. for every shawl, sometimes 3d. or 4d. if it is small, or 1s. if it is a very fine one.

1803. Have you ever sold shawls to any people except merchants?-I have.

1804. Do you sometimes sell to private ladies?-Yes, and gentlemen too.

1805. Do you sell to visitors in summer, and to people living in Lerwick?-Yes.

1806. Do you consider you are likely to get a better bargain with them than with the merchants?-I get the money from them.

1807. But you have no reason for dealing with them for the purpose of getting the money, because you say you get money from the merchants if you ask it?-Yes; but if a gentleman comes and asks me for a shawl, he has nothing to give me except the money, and I get it all in money then.

1808. Would you rather do with a gentleman or lady in that way than with a merchant?-It is only sometimes that they can take a shawl in that way; but the merchant always takes them.

1809. But would you prefer to deal with strangers rather than with the merchants?-If they were always here, I should like it very well.

1810. That is because you get a better bargain, and you are sure to get all money?-Yes.

1811. Is it not rather a favour to you that the merchant gives you money when you ask it?-I don't know whether it is a favour to me, but I always get it when I ask it. But I don't have such a great run of shawls as some of the other women have.

1812. It is rather out of your ordinary way to be selling shawls?- Yes; but when I do make one and ask money, I get it.

1813. Have you ever got the whole price of a shawl in money?- Yes.

1814. From the whole of merchants you have named?-No, only from Mr. Johnston; and that was for a country girl, because she was in need of it.

1815. That was a case in which you went out of your usual way, because the girl required it?-Yes.

1816. Have you asked the whole money from any of the other merchants?-No, I never did.

1817. You have only asked a part of it in money?-Yes.

1818. On a shawl worth 25s. that you were selling for yourself or for a girl, how much might you, in a general way, ask in money?- I have got as high as 10s. or 7s. 6d. or 5s., just as I asked it.

1819. But you never thought of asking the whole price of it in money?-No; but I was always requiring something that the merchants had to give me.

1820. Supposing you had a shawl to sell, would you give it to a merchant for a lower price if he paid it down in cash, than if he paid you in goods for it?-Yes; if I was requiring the cash, I would.

1821. Would you not do it in any case?-I would be glad of the money, certainly.

1822. Do you think it would be worth while for the knitters, as a rule, to take a less price for their shawls and to get money for them, rather than to go on in the present way?-I don't know about that. For my own part, I should like if the people were to get part of both-both money and articles. Nobody can live without articles; and it is just as well to get them from the merchants who buy our shawls, as to get the money.

1823. But if the merchants did pay all the price of the shawls in money, it would just come back to them, because, as you say very truly, people cannot do without some of the merchants' goods, and the money would return to them in payment for their goods. Don't you think, that would be a better system for all parties than the present?-Those who need money would like to get it; but some people don't stand so much in need of money as others. For instance, if I were knitting shawls only, I would need most of the price in money, because I have no other way of living but I don't mean to say that girls who work merely for the sake of getting clothing, require to get the whole price in money.

1824. But suppose they got all the price of their work in money, might it not be easier for them to make the purchases of the goods they require?-They would not get so much for their shawls then; they could not expect it.

1825. That is because the merchant makes a profit upon the goods he sells, as well as upon the shawls?-Yes.

1826. Are you aware whether it is a common thing in Lerwick, to sell shawls cheaper for money than they would be given for goods?-Yes, any person who required money would rather sell a shawl for 1s. or 2s. less, in order to get it.

1827. Have you often seen that done?-Yes.

1828. Have you often done that yourself on behalf of the country girls?-Yes.

1829. You mentioned a case where you got the whole price of a shawl in money from Mr. Johnston: did you, in that case, say you would give it for 2s. or 3s. less if you could get the whole price in money?-Yes; because the girl required it, and told me to do that. She wanted the money to pay her rent with.

1830. Was the price you got a fair price for the shawl?-It was at that time.

1831. Is there anything else you wish to say on this subject?-I have only to say that I think the girls ought to be very thankful to the merchants, for they have done more for them than any one in the place has done yet. They have bought their work, and then they have gone and distributed it throughout the country. This knitted work is not worn here; but the merchants have got a market for it, and therefore I think the girls ought to be very grateful to them.

[Page 36]

1832. Do you think they would not have got a market for their goods themselves?-No; plenty of them would never have been able to have gone to the market, even if they had thought of it.

1833. How long is it since that trade became general here?-I can hardly tell; I was a little girl when it began. The first shawl I made I got 7s. 6d. for, and I was very proud of it.

1834. How much would you get for that now?-They would not buy such a thing now, the work was so open. I can just recollect of it. I don't think I was much more than ten years at the time. I sold it to Mr. Harrison, and he and Mr. Laurenson were about the first who began to buy them. We got groceries and everything we wanted then for our shawls.

1835. You do not get these things now, because the merchants who buy the shawls don't have them?-They have them all except groceries.

1836. With regard to the girls in town who sell the shawls to merchants and get only goods in return, how do they do for a living?-Some girls live with their parents, and can do very well.

1837. But a number of them live in rooms by themselves, and perhaps have a parent or some other person to support out of their earnings: how do they generally do for their food?-I can hardly answer that. I don't know how they do; but I know that some of the girls that I am in the habit of dressing the shawls for, come and tell me they have sold a shawl today, and what they got for it, and that they have got some money. Some of the merchants give them money, and some of them tea, and worsted to knit another shawl with; and that is just money.

1838. But if they have to make shawl with the worsted, they cannot turn it into provisions?-No; but they will make another shawl.

1839. And they may get 1s. or 2s. in money?-Yes.

1840. But if they only get 1s. or 2s. on each shawl, that is not sufficient either to pay their house rent or to supply them with provisions?-No; but I think there are some of them who may get a shawl sold for all money, and then that pays the rent.

1841. They do happen to get that occasionally?-Yes; some lady who wants one for a present to a friend might buy it from them. That is the only way I can think of in which they can get their provisions; but if it was the case that the merchants had groceries in their shops, people would not require very much money, and then they would get their livelihood.

1842. What kind of goods do you generally get for your country girls in exchange for their shawls?-I do not buy them; they buy them for themselves.

1843. You get lines, and they choose the goods for themselves when they next come to town?-Yes.

1844. In that way you do not know what they get?-No; but I always hear them say that they got very good bargains, and they are generally well pleased.

1845. You say shawls are sometimes sold to a lady or gentleman passing through the town; I suppose, in that case, there will be two prices for them?-No.

1846. Would you ask from them the same price that you get from the merchant in goods?-We might ask it, but, seeing the money, we might give the shawl for less. Some people don't ask to have the price reduced, but others do.

1847. You just make the best bargain you can, in each case?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH MOODIE, examined.

1848. Are you in the habit of knitting for any one in Lerwick?- Yes; for Mr. Sinclair.

1849. Has any one asked you to come and give evidence here to-day?-Yes; I was summoned.

1850. Did any one ask you besides that?-No.

1851. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it with wool supplied to you by Mr. Sinclair?-Partly both, I generally have a shawl of my own in hand, but I always knit for Mr. Sinclair.

1852. Do you keep a pass-book?-No; I never had a pass-book with him.

1853. Are you paid in the same way both for your own shawls that you sell, and for those that you knit for him?-No; generally when I knit a shawl for Mr. Sinclair, he allows me so much for the knitting of it; but when I sell a shawl, I price it myself.

1854. Is that price paid in the same way that the wages are paid to you for knitting?-No.

1855. Is it paid to you in money in both cases; or in goods?-It is paid in goods in both cases.

1856. Is there not a certain part of it, in both cases, that you can get money for?-Yes. When I knitted for Mr. Sinclair before I was married, he generally gave me money whenever I asked for it; but since I had a house of my own, I generally manage my affairs so that I do not have to ask him for money. I usually take clothes for my children and myself from him without getting money at all; but if I did ask him for money, I have no doubt he would give it to me.

1857. Have you always got money when you asked for it?-Yes; whenever I asked I got it.

1858. Do you generally take the whole value of your shawls in goods?-Yes, I always do.

1859. And no money passes between you at all?-No, not since I was married; but previously, when I asked him for money, I always got it.

1860. Did you generally ask for a considerable part of the price of your shawls in money?-Yes.

1861. How much might you get out of a 20s. shawl, for instance?- Perhaps I might have asked him for 2s. or 2s, 6d., and so on, money.

1862. Would that be about the usual thing?-Yes; that was generally about the usual thing.

1863. Did you ever get the whole price of a shawl or of any hosiery goods in money?-No; I never asked it.

1864. Do you live at home with your people, or did you live by yourself before you were married?-I lived at home with my father.

1865. So that you did not require any money with which to purchase food for yourself?-No.

1866. You merely knitted to supply yourself with dress, or whatever you wanted for yourself?-Yes.

1867. Did you require for your dress all the payments you received for your knitting?-No, I cannot say that I required it all for myself. I might have supplied some of my brothers or sisters with any little thing they wanted.

1868. Did they repay you for that, or did you make a present of it to them?-I generally made a present of it to them, as I was at home.

1869. Would you have preferred to have been paid wholly in money?-I should prefer to be paid part of both, if I could manage it.

1870. Would you prefer to get half the price in money?-Yes, I would like that very well.

1871. Could you not get one half of it in money if you asked for it?-I believe if I had asked for it I could have got it, but I did not ask it.

1872. Then, if you preferred it, why did you not ask for it?-I told you I managed my affairs in such a way that I did not need it.

1873. But you said you would have preferred to have had half of it in money?-Provided I could have got it, I should have liked it very well; but I did not ask that.

1874. Why did you not ask it? Do you think there would have been a difficulty in getting it?-I don't know; I only know that I never asked for one half of it in money.

1875. Why?-I generally took a line for what remained to me upon a shawl. I might have got the money instead of a line, but I did not ask it.

1876. You have taken lines sometimes?-Yes, I generally took them.

1877. Have you any of these lines have none just now?-No, I have none just now.

1878. When you get a line, do you always take it [Page 37] back to the shop, and get goods?-Yes; I sometimes take it back to the shop.

1879. What do you do with it at other times?-Sometimes a friend may require a line from me, and give me money for it.

1880. If you were selling your goods for ready money, would you take a less price for them?-Sometimes I have seen me take a shilling or so less if it was all money.

1881. But you said you never got the whole price of a shawl in money?-Occasionally I sold a shawl to a stranger in the place in the summer time, and I might give it to him for a shilling less.

1882. Do you generally get a smaller price when you sell to a stranger in that way?-Perhaps I may sometimes have asked a smaller price, as it was the money I was to get.

1883. If you wanted the money, why did you not, when selling your shawls to a merchant, ask him for the ready money, and take 1s. or 2s. less?-I don't know. I never thought of that.

1884. Was it not because it was not the practice here to give money?-Yes; that is the truth.

1885. Of course a shawl which you sold to a stranger in that way would be one knitted with your own worsted which you had bought?-Yes.

1886. Do you always pay ready money for your worsted?- Always.

1887. Do you always buy your worsted from the merchants in town?-Sometimes; and sometimes, when the country people come down, they have worsted with them, and I buy it from them too.

1888. Is the price the same in both cases?-Yes, always.

1889. If you were selling a shawl to a merchant and taking goods, and if you asked to have part of the goods in worsted, is there any objection made to that way of dealing?-No; I never heard any objection made to that.

1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received in payment for your shawls?-Yes.

1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes.

1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No.

1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection.

1894. Do you knit to a large extent?-Yes; knit a good deal

1895. How much will you make in a month or in a week in that way?-I could not exactly say. It takes a good long time to make a nice shawl.

1896. Is it mostly shawls you make?-Yes.

1897. Will it take a month to make a shawl which is worth £1?- Yes. I have other things to do, and cannot keep constantly at it.

1898. But you do make one shawl a month or there about?-Yes.

1899. So that your dealings in that way will come perhaps £12 or £14 a year?-They will be more than that. I would reckon that they would be about £15.

1900. Would that all be your own knitting?-I could not say that. Perhaps I might get some one to help me a little with a shawl.

1901. But it would be mostly your own work?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET OLLASON, examined.

1902. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants in Lerwick?- No; I knit for myself, and I sell the goods.

1903. How are you paid for them?-I generally make articles for which I get an order.

1904. From whom?-From ladies who employ me.

1905. Have you never sold to merchants at all?-I have sometimes sold to Mr. Sinclair.

1906. When you sell to him, are you paid in money?-I have asked for part of both-money and goods-and I got it.

1907. You did not ask for the whole in money?-No.

1908. Why?-Just because I thought it was not the custom of the place.

1909. Did you want the whole in money?-No; I was requiring the goods at the time.

1910. Does it often happen that you sell articles to Mr. Sinclair in that way?-Yes; I sold him two shawls lately.

1911. How much of the price did you get in money?-The price of one of the shawls was 35s., and I got 17s. 6d. in money.

1912. Did you ask for that?-Yes.

1913. And you had no difficulty in getting it?-No. I sold the other shawl for 28s., and I got 8s. in money and £1 in goods.

1914. That was the arrangement that you wanted yourself?-Yes; I asked it.

1915. You wanted the goods?-Yes.

1916. Would you have made a better bargain by selling these shawls to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger visiting the place?-I got much the same price from Mr. Sinclair as I had been in the habit of getting.

1917. Do you sell to visitors, or to ladies in Lerwick, because you prefer to do that?-We sell to them because we are not requiring the goods.

1918. And you prefer to sell to them because you wish to get the money?-Yes.

1919. Do you live with your friends?-I live with my father.

1920. And you buy your own worsted?-Yes.

1921. Where do you buy it?-I get it from the North Isles,-from Yell.

1922. You get it from people who make it there?-Yes.

1923. Do you generally knit for ladies who have given you an order, or do you knit your shawl and then seek for a purchaser?- Sometimes I get an order for shawl and make it, and at other times I make one and keep it until I get an order.

1924. Is it considered among you who knit, to be a better way of living that you knit to ladies than to merchants?-Yes.

1925. Do you ever try to dispose of your shawls to visitors who come to Shetland in the summer?-No, I never did that, for I generally get orders for them as soon as I have them ready.

1926. Do you know that it is the practice to look out for visitors in summer, or to send shawls to places such as hotels or lodging-houses where they stay, in order to get buyers among them?-I know that is a common thing, but I have never done it.

1927. Is that done because it is a more profitable way of disposing of the goods than by selling them to the merchants?-I think that is the reason.

1928. Or is it done because they get money from the visitors or strangers?-I believe it is because they get money.

1929. Do you get as large a price from a visitor in money as you get from a merchant in goods?-Yes.

1930. Do you know that from your own experience?-Yes.

1931. You said you had sold a shawl for 35s. to Mr. Sinclair: if you had sold that shawl to a visitor, or to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger in the summer time, would you have got 35s. for it?-I would.

1932. Have you got that price for a shawl exactly the same?-Yes; I have got it from Dr. Hamilton in Bressay, who was requiring it for a lady.

1933. You sold another shawl for 28s. Could you have got as high a price in money from a visitor for it as you got in goods from the merchant?-Yes.

1934. You don't know that there are two prices for shawls, according as they are paid in money or in goods?-I don't know that, for I have not experienced it.

1935. Would you have given either of these two shawls you mentioned for a lower price if you had got the whole price of it in money?-No; I don't think [Page 38] I could have done it, for I thought the shawls were worth the price I put upon them.

1936. Don't you think you could have got a higher price than 35s. for that shawl from a visitor?-I don't think it.

1937. When you sold the shawl to Mr. Sinclair at that price, you knew that he was buying it for the purpose of selling it again: was the price which he gave you not something of a wholesale price?- It was just the price I would have asked any one for it, because it was just what I thought it was worth. The price I put upon it was just sufficient to pay me for my worsted and my work.

1938. But Mr. Sinclair must make his profit off the shawl when he purchased it in order to be re-sold, so that there may be two prices in that way: do you know anything about that?-No; I don't know anything about it.

1939. You thought you ought to get at least 35s. for the shawl, and you were prepared to take as much more as you could get?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA BOLT, examined.

1940. You are the wife of William Bolt who lives in Lerwick?- Yes.

1941. Are you in the habit of knitting Mr. Sinclair?-I knit for myself, but I sell my work to Mr. Sinclair.

1942. You have no pass-book in that way of dealing?-No.

1943. Did you hear Margaret Ollason's evidence?-Yes.

1944. Do you knit the same kind of goods as she does?-No; I generally knit veils and shawls to Mr. Sinclair.

1945. Do you deal in the same way as she has described?-Yes; something like the same.

1946. Do you sell to other people than Mr. Sinclair?-No; I generally sell everything have to him.

1947. When you go to him to sell your work, do you get payment in money or in goods?-In goods.

1948. Do you prefer that way of dealing; or do you want all money?-I generally require goods.

1949. Have you a family?-Yes; the goods were wanted for them.

1950. You don't get provisions there: you provide them otherwise?-Yes.

1951. Do you sometimes ask for money from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes, I have asked for money, and I got it when I asked it. I have not sold anything to any other shop for the last fifteen years.

1952. Would you prefer to get money if you could?-I don't know. If I were getting money, I would just have to buy goods with it, so that the goods are the same to me as money.

1953. Do you know that any one can get money for their goods if they want it?-I know there are plenty who get it.

1954. But can any one get whatever money they require for their goods?-I don't know. I only know that there are many who want money; but for my own part, I generally ask for goods, and I get them; and if I require a little money, I always get it.

1955. Do you sometimes get lines?-Yes; and worsted to knit, which is the same as money.

1956. If you are in want of worsted, do you buy it from Mr. Sinclair in payment for your shawls?-Yes.

1957. Do you keep any account, or do you just deal across the counter?-I just get the things as I want them.

1958. You go to the shop and say you want so much worsted as part of what you are taking?-Yes.

1959. Do you get it at the ordinary price?-Yes; it is just the same price.

1960. Does your sister-in-law, Mrs. James Bolt, deal in the same way?-Yes; in the same manner.

1961. And, altogether with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. We always knit together, and what hosiery we have we always sell to him.

1962. Do you buy the worsted from Mr. Sinclair exactly in the same way as you would buy a piece of cotton or a dress?-Yes; just the same.

1963. The price of the worsted is reckoned up as part of the price of the shawl that you are selling?-Yes. We get it on a line the same as the other goods.

1964. Of course: there is no writing: it is just a transaction across the counter unless there is a line?-Yes.

1965. But if you have a line, and bring it back to the shop in order to get goods, do you get worsted for it just as you get any other goods?-Yes; I have got worsted on a line.

1966. Do you know that these transactions are all entered in Mr. Sinclair's book?-Yes.

1967. You have seen that done?-Yes.

1968. The worsted is entered there as well as the other things?- Yes.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. WILHELMINA BOLT, examined.

1969. Have you anything different to say about the way in which you knit and deal in your hosiery business from what you have heard stated by your sister-in-law?-No; I have nothing more to say.

1970. You agree with her in everything?-Yes.

1971. And there is no difference or addition that you can state?- No.

1972. Have you asked for money and got all you wanted?-Yes; I never asked for money and did not get it. When I had a line from Mr. Sinclair, I just got the same goods from him upon it as I would have got for money.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS HELEN FLAUS, examined.

1973. Are you a dresser in Lerwick?-I dress a little and I knit a little.

1974. Did you hear the evidence which Mrs. Arcus gave to-day?- Yes.

1975. Do you do business in the same way that she described?- Much the same.

1976. Do you dress shawls for some of the knitters in Lerwick?- Yes.

1977. And you take ready money for that?-Yes.

1978. Do they sell the shawls direct to the merchants themselves?-Yes.

1979. Do you also dress shawls for knitters from the country?- Yes.

1980. Do you sell these shawls, or do you return them to the girls who bring them to you?-I sometimes sell them, and sometimes they sell them.

1981. When you sell them to the merchants, do you get ready money or lines, or do you get goods for the girls?-I get lines from those merchants who give lines, and those who give no lines mark them down in their books.

1982. Who gives you the lines?-Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Laurenson generally is the only other merchant I sell to and he marks them down in his own book. He does not give lines.

1983. You don't sell to any of the other merchants?-Sometimes I do.

1984. Do you sell to Mr. Johnston?-Not very much.

1985. Does he give you a line when you sell to him for a country girl?-Yes.

1986. Do you sell to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, occasionally. He does not give lines; he marks the articles down in his book.

[Page 39]

1987. How does he know the girl for whom the shawl has been sold, when he only marks it in the book?-I give in the girl's name to him, and she goes and asks for the amount that is marked in her name, and gets it.

1988. If she knows the amount?-I tell her the amount.

1989. Then she knows the amount, and that is sufficient to identify her?-Yes.

1990. Do these country girls sometimes ask you to get money for them rather than goods?-No; they have never asked me to do that.

1991. Do they sometimes get part of their payment in money?-I cannot tell about that. They always get a line from me, and I cannot tell how the merchants and they settle.

1992. Do you know whether lines are sometimes given for the goods which are sold by the knitters in town?-I cannot say anything about that.

1993. Or which are sold by yourself?-No; I don't know anything about that myself.

1994. You never took lines for the shawls you knitted yourself?- No; not for my own goods.

1995. Do you sometimes sell to strangers, or to people who are not in the trade?-No; I have never done that.

1996. I suppose you meet with people who knit a good deal, and have a number of transactions with them?-Yes.

1997. Do you know whether they prefer to sell to strangers, or to merchants in town?-Sometimes they require money, and at other times they require goods as well as money; and they would then just as well have the goods as the money.

1998. But if they want the money, can they not have it from the merchants if they ask for it?-I always got it when I asked it. For any others, I cannot say.

1999. Do you dress goods for any of the merchants?-No.

2000. Only for the knitters?-Yes.

2001. You are never employed by the merchants at all?-No.

2002. Can you tell me; why there is not a system of paying always in money for the hosiery?-Because it has not been a customary thing, and they never ask it.

2003. Would it not be just as convenient for all parties to pay in money?-I don't think it. I think we may just as well have the goods.

2004. But if you had the money, it would be better for the knitters, would it not; because they could buy what goods they wanted? They might have to hand the money back across the counter, but they would be able to make their own bargain for what they bought?-Yes; but they would get a less price for their shawls.

2005. How do you know that?-It is so stated.

2006. Who states it?-They generally say that if they get money, they will not get so much as in goods.

2007. Do you mean that the merchants say that?-Yes; when we sell shawls for money, they say they will not give so much for them in money as in goods.

2008. Who has told you that?-The merchants.

2009. Has that often been said to you?-Not often; but it has been said.

2011. Who has said it?-Mr. Sinclair: I sold shawl to him last night.

2012. And he told you last night that he would give you more in goods for it than he would give in money?-Yes, than he could give in money.

2013. What was the price of that shawl?-I got 15s. for it.

2014. Did you take that in goods?-Yes.

2015. Or in a line?-In goods.

2016. In goods that you took away at the time?-Yes.

2017. What would you have got if you had sold your shawl for money?-I cannot exactly say. He did not particularize that.

2018. You did not go into particulars, because you wanted the goods?-Yes.

2019. Do you sometimes sell goods that you get from the merchants?-No; for I always require them for myself.

2020. Is it the practice for some of the knitters to sell the goods they get?-I cannot say; I never saw it done.

2021. You never bought any goods from a knitter which she had got in that way?-No, never.

2022. You are always paid in cash for your own dressing?-Yes.

2023. Do you think the knitters generally would be content with lower prices if they got paid in cash?-I cannot speak for any one but myself.

2024. You don't know the feelings of the girls deal with you from the town?-I do not.

2025. Do you know how most of these girls are provided with their food?-I cannot say. Occasionally the girls don't require money.

2026. Is it not the case that a number of single women live in rooms in and knit for a living?-I cannot say, because I am not much acquainted through the place.

2027. You do not know the private circumstances of your customers?-I do not.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA MOUAT, examined.

2028. Where do you live?-I live in Girlsta, parish of Tingwall.

2029. Are you a married woman?-Yes

2030. Is your husband alive?-Yes, he is at Leith; but I have had nothing from him for five years. I live by my own knitting; and that is what has made me so anxious to come here.

2031 Have you any family?-I have only one son. He is sailing out of Leith.

2032. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.

2033. Where do you buy it?-I buy it mostly from my friends- some of it from my brother.

2034. Is your brother a farmer near where you live?-Yes.

2035. Do you pay him for the wool?-Yes.

2036. To whom do you sell your hosiery goods?-I always sold them to Mr. Spence before he went away. I made fancy stockings and knitted gloves, and things of that kind.

2037. You don't knit the fine hosiery; it is all stockings and gloves and mittens you do?-Yes, and men's frocks. I made them for Mr. Spence, but since he went away I have been very poorly off.

2038. He was a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2039. Did he keep a shop here?-Yes.

2040. The same kind of shop as is kept by Mr. Sinclair and Mr. Linklater?-No. He had not so much goods in his shop, as Mr. Sinclair has, but he sometimes gave me money when I wanted it- either money or goods.

2041. Does his sister carry on the business for him now?-Yes.

2042. Do you sell to her?-No; she is not buying anything.

2043. How were you paid for your goods?-Just middling.

2044. Were you paid in money or in goods?-Either in money or goods.

2045. If you brought a lot of articles: and asked Mr. Spence to buy them, he would fix a price; and if the price suited you, you gave him the articles?-Yes.

2046. Did he pay you money across the counter?-Yes.

2047. Were you ever obliged to take goods from him?-Yes; many a time.

[Page 40]

2048. Did he tell you he would not give you money?-No; he did not say that.

2049. What did he say?-He just gave me anything I wanted- sometimes money and sometimes goods.

2050. He never told you that he did not want to give you money?-Sometimes he did so. Sometimes he was very unwilling to give money, but he did give it.

2051. Was that pretty often?-No; not very often. My articles were always good.

2052. Did you sometimes ask him to give you money when you did not get it?-Yes.

2053. Is it long since he left the business?-I have never sold anything to him since the month of July.

2054. Who do you sell to now?-I have sent what articles I have made since to my son in the south, and he has sold them in Leith.

2055. Do you get as good a price for them there as you used to get from Mr. Spence?-No.

2056. But your son sends you money for the goods you send to him?-Yes; he always sends me money, and his shipmates buy what I make.

2057. Do many women knit that sort of goods that you deal in- stockings and gloves?-A great many.

2058. Is it mostly that kind of knitting that is carried on in your part of the country at Girlsta?-Yes.

2059. They don't knit fine work there?-No.

2060. Who buys the sort of work they make?-Most of the merchants do so.

2061. Do the people in your part of the country generally get payment in goods?-Yes.

2062. Or in money?-No; they never ask for money.

2063. Why?-Because the country people are not needing it.

2064. Do they not need money?-Yes they need money; but when they get the goods the same they always ask the goods.

2065. You think there would no use getting money for your knitting, and just handing it back across the counter the next minute for goods?-I suppose that is what they think; but they would be better if they could get the money.

2066. Can they not get it?-Not very well.

2067. Why?-Because the merchants are not willing to give it.

2068. I thought you said the country people did not get money because they did not want it?-Well, sometimes there is no use of them getting it, and giving it back again to the merchant they are dealing with; they might just as well have the goods, because they have plenty of meal and other things to serve their ends, and they are not like us, who have to buy everything. We would be glad of the money sometimes to buy things that the merchant does not have, or to pay our rent with; but the country people have plenty of these things, and it is only goods they are wanting, and that is the reason why they take them.

2069. Then you have no reason to complain of this system of paying in goods?-We have to complain of it many a time.

2070. Why do you complain?-Because if we had money it could answer for other things, and in other ways than when we get goods; but we cannot get it.

2071. Is it a common subject of complaint in the country, that you cannot get money?-It is every one's complaint; and when we get articles, we are sorry to have to part with them for perhaps half-price.

2072. Do you sometimes sell the articles which you get at the shops?-Yes. I am in the habit of making very good things, and I am very sorry sometimes that I have to give them away at so low a price.

2073. But suppose you come into town and get goods in return for your knitting, have you sometimes to sell these goods again?-No; I have not done that.

2074. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY ANN SINCLAIR, examined.

2075. You knit for Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

2076. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.

2077. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.

2078. You just settle for the work as you take it back each time?- Yes.

2079. Are you generally paid in money or in goods?-Part in both.

2080. Do you knit shawls or veils?-Mostly veils.

2081. How many veils will you take to him in a week?-I could not exactly say. There are four of us besides me.

2082. Do you all knit for Mr. Sinclair?-There is one who knits besides me, and another dresses.

2083. Does she dress only your own knitting, or does she take in other people's knitting to dress too?-She dresses what she gets to do for other people.

2084. Does she do a good deal in that way for other people?-Yes.

2085. You cannot tell me how many veils you take: to Mr. Sinclair in a week?-We might do three in week, each of us, if we were able to work constantly at it.

2086. Do you work at anything else?-Nothing else-only veils; but we are so often in trouble, that I could hardly tell you how many we do in a week. There are three sisters and one brother of us alive now: my father and mother are dead.

2087. Is your brother a fisherman?-No; he is in a shop.

2088. You are not a married woman?-No.

2089. How much will you get for your veils when you take a lot of them to Mr. Sinclair? Are they sold at 1s. each?-It is generally very fine veils that we knit, and we get 1s. 6d. each for them.

2090. How many do you take at a time to the shop?-Perhaps a dozen, or perhaps two dozen.

2091. If you take a dozen, that would be 18s. worth?-Yes.

2092. How much of that will you get in money?-Our rent is paid from the knitting. That, of course, is money.

2093. You have to get as much as will pay your rent?-Yes.

2094. How do you get your provisions?-We get money whenever we ask it, besides what is taken for our rent.

2095. Are you tenants of Mr Sinclair?-Yes.

2096. You have a house from him, and he keeps your rent off what you have to get for your knitting?-Yes; and we have sometimes to get as high as 5s. a week from him, and we always get it.

2097. That is, for your living?-Yes.

2098. Do you get as much money in payment for your veils as you require?-Yes; as much as we ask for.

2099. Will you manage to take a dozen veils to him in the course of a fortnight?-Yes; or perhaps a dozen in three weeks.

2100. You are speaking both of your sisters and yourself?-Yes.

2101. How much of that 18s. as a general thing, will you get in money?-I can hardly say. If we were to ask money weekly we would get it: but since our brother's wages were raised, we have not asked so often for money.

2102. That is to say, you have spent more of the produce of your knitting in goods-in clothing?-Yes.

2103. Have you ever had to sell any of the goods that you got at the shop?-No.

2104. Or tea?-No.

2105. You don't knit any for selling, and you never did?-No.

2106. Do you think you would be any better off if you got all the price of your knitting in money?-I don't think it, because if I got it in money I would just lay it down on the counter and get goods for it.

2107. That is to say, you would get the same quantity of goods that you get now?-Yes. Of course I would not take the money and go to another shop with it.

[Page 41]

2108. Mr. Sinclair recommended you to come here today?-Yes; he said he thought I should come.

2109. How much did you get for knitting your last shawl?-I think we got £2, 10s. for our last shawl. [<Mr. Sinclair>, £2, 15s.] Yes, it was £2, 15s.

2110. That was a remarkably large one, I suppose?-Yes it was very fine.

2111. It was knitted by you and your sisters?-Yes.

2112. How long ago was that?-It was in the month of April or May, I think.

2113. How much of that did you get in money?-It was just marked in to our account, and we got the money as we asked for it.

2114. You did not tell me before that was the way in which you dealt?-I thought I did. You asked me if I had a pass-book, and I said it was just marked into the book.

2115. I rather understood that a settlement was made with you each time you took in your work?-No, we have an account.

2116. And that £2, 15s. was marked into it?-Yes.

2117. You did not take any goods at that time?-I hardly think it; but I really forget.

2118. Did you get any money at that time?-I don't think it.

2119. Did you ask for money?-No; and it was merely because I did not ask for it that I did not get it.

<Adjourned>.

Lerwick: Thursday, January 4, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

ARTHUR LAURENSON, examined.

2120. You are a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., Shetland warehousemen and clothiers in Lerwick?-I am.

2121. That is the oldest house in that business in Shetland, is it not?-I believe it is.

2122. The other partner of the house is your brother-in-law, Mr. William Bruce Tulloch?-Yes.

2123. You succeeded your father in the business?-Yes. I was in business with him for a good many years before his death.

2124. Besides carrying on that business, you also act as a trustee or factor?-Yes; in bankruptcies. I am also treasurer for the Shetland Widows' Fund under Anderson's Trust.

2125. And in that capacity you have the management of a considerable income to be devoted to charitable purposes?-Yes; I am a member of the local committee. There are three other gentlemen on the committee. And I am also treasurer, and have been so for a long time. I was appointed by Mr. Anderson in his lifetime, and I have always been so since.

2126. In the Shetland hosiery business you get the goods from the women knitters, who I believe are of two classes: those who knit for you, and those who sell to you?-Yes. There are those who bring the article and just exchange it over the counter. The greater part of our business now consists in the exchanging of goods, rather than in the employing of women to knit for us. Some years ago we were more in that way than we are now. Our principal business now just consists in buying their own productions, or rather, I should say, in the exchanging of them.

2127. By using the word exchanging, what is it that you mean to imply?-I mean to make a difference between that and buying for actual cash. If I were using the word, buying, it might convey the idea that we pay cash down. When I say exchanging, I mean that they bring us the article, and we give them other articles in exchange for it.

2128. By that you mean to imply that the transaction is understood as a barter?-Precisely.

2129. What is the character of the stock that you keep?-Drapery articles altogether, and general soft goods. The only grocery goods we keep are tea and soap.

2130. And the exchanges which you make with your customers for their hosiery are of drapery goods, tea, and soap?-Yes.

2131. Are these purchases made chiefly from women who live in Lerwick, or from women who come from the country?-Part of both. We deal principally with women from the country. The Lerwick women only make fine goods, such as shawls and veils, as a rule, although some of them do make underclothing too.

2132. That practice of barter has, I understand, been of long continuance in Shetland?-Long before my memory. I suppose, as Mr. Walker humorously remarked in his evidence, it has probably prevailed since the days of Adam.

2133. Is any proportion of the payment now made in cash?- Sometimes it is; and that custom, I think, is a growing one. When I first came into the business with my father, it was, I may say, an unheard of thing to give any cash at all,-such a thing was not thought of or expected by the women; but now for a good many years-I should say for ten or twelve years-the custom has begun to give a certain portion of the price in cash, and it seems to be gradually increasing,-that is to say, each year we are paying more in cash than we did in the previous year.

2134. Is that because more cash is asked?-Perhaps it may be, and it may also be from a greater readiness on the part of the dealers to give it. I don't mean to say, by any means, that it is the rule to make cash payments; but I say that the custom of making occasional cash payments, at any rate, is getting more common.

2135. Are you speaking from your experience your own business, or do you speak generally?-I am speaking of my own experience, but I presume that will be the experience of others in the trade as well.

2136. Formerly people did not use to ask for money at all?-No. When I went first into the business it was never thought of.

2137. At that time was the trade one of purchase, or was it one of manufacturing for the merchant?-I think it was pure barter.

2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the dates, so far as I recollect them.

2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery of different sorts.

2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's wear.

2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles, and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different styles.

2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is asked?-I am.

2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no recollection of doing so for a good many years back.

2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me, because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.

2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or myself would fix the prices.

2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?- No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my brother-in-law.

2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.

2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.

2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.

2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much, if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father. She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.

2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she sold it and got the cash for it.

2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.

2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses.

2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.

2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come from the same person, or from a person who had been long employed by us.

2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.

2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was her own material and her own article altogether. I have just mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.

2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum: there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately, within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one. The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I don't think she would be employing herself in that way.

2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum, though I could not just identify her at present.

2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does not knit to me.

2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of anything of the kind.

2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm of R.B. Laurence & Co.

2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know.

2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr. Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co.

2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware. He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a grocer and baker.

2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction, that might enable me to remember it.

2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.

2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?- Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash down for particular shawls worth £2 or £2, 10s. I have given as much as £5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very special article.

2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.

2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary for the woman to make any particular representation as to her wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for cash, and so the price was fixed.

2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted, there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery trade.

2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.

2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.

2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the 17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her, because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in paying her rent, or anything of that kind.

2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at all times to get drapery goods.

2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us, as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.

2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system, although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another description,-for this reason, that these goods of another description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing to pay anything in cash.

2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly; because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods, and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as in drapery goods, in many cases.

2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers, and also to the women knitters.

2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated, antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it changed.

2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be better for the women to be always paid in cash.

2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked. They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just as they pleased.

2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.

2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been examined on previous days with regard to that.

2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes; hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the counter.

2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?- Yes, to both.

2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system, there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods. That is known and understood on both sides.

2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is included in that.

2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule, that all the goods which the women take they are actually requiring.

2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct, since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards.

2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to yesterday.

2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and accumulate.

2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices, whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?- They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no prospect of selling these articles for a year or so.

2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size, and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike in Shetland.

2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?- We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such houses who generally deal in Shetland goods.

2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact, restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south.

2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market. We don't have such a large market.

2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which they have another profit?-Exactly.

2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men, we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount off; that is to say, with £10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for £10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to get a profit on the hosiery also.

2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for £10 you would sell to a merchant in the south for £10, and give him 5 per cent. discount besides?-Yes.

2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid the £10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on them, which is more that 5 per cent.

2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the goods amounting to £10, for which we have got the hosiery. Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the hosiery afterwards for £10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we still have 10 per cent. for our trouble.

2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay 5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them, because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit.

2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash payments.

2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be more business-like, and a simpler plan.

2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so.

2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think

2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite ready.

2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it.

2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed.

2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is, that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the present state and a new system of cash payments there would require to be some sort of agreement.

2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade. We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of them have pass-books.

2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able to give any information that may be wanted on that subject.

2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken.

2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but I cannot say from memory how many there are.

2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them.

2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is stated there [produces book].

2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book.

2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes.

2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for that purpose.

2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance stands against a woman you have to look back to where the balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the shop-woman and her.

2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that book?-No; the girl knows them all.

2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?- Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people, and it shows that we have very few of them.

2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D. means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d.

2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff, and then the balance is carried forward.

2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s. or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it was for.

2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be another balance.

2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line, there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered separately. She has been back since then, because the work which she got out at that time has been returned.

2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.' The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane.

2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not to have worsted of her own.

2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what she got for that work.

2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things which are entered there, she might have got some things when she was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon the whole.

2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the only one in which entries are made of any transactions with workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it.

2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all.

2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is very seldom any of them have very much to get.

2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods, do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26- Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d. has been got afterwards.

2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s. 6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it.

2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she has that to get just now.

2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry made of the new work which she had got.

2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford. They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one.

2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz. black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes.

2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl does not seem to have been requiring anything.

2243. You don't know whether that girl asked for money?-I don't know; but the shop-girl would be able to tell.

2244. You have no doubt that if she had asked for it, she would have got it?-If she had asked for it, she would have got it; but, as I have said before, it had been so long the custom not to pay money, that they did not ask it, not expecting to get it.

2245. Do you say that your profit upon your drapery goods is calculated at about 15 per cent.?-I should say about 15 to 25 per cent.; that is the ordinary retail profit over all.

2246. Supposing you were to make a profit upon your hosiery goods, what profit would you expect to get from your drapery goods?-I understand that in the south the profit in the drapery trade is generally estimated at 15 per cent. on an average.

2247. And you make it vary here, according to the different goods, at from 15 to 25 per cent.?-Yes.

2248. Is that in order to cover your risk upon the hosiery?-Yes; I should say so. It would be much better for us to sell for cash down, with a smaller price, than to sell at a higher nominal price, and to lie out of the money for perhaps a couple of years, and perhaps run the risk of making a bad debt with the hosiery. I may add that we sometimes do make bad debts to a pretty large amount. Some years ago I lost £150 by one customer.

2249. Was he a purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.

2250. Show me any entry in this book relating to a shawl made for you?-There [showing] is 7 oz. black, which was given to a woman for a shawl which she is at present making. Here is another, Mary Greig, who made a black shawl, and returned it.

2251. Does the book show how much was the payment usually got for the making of it?-She came back on 23d January, and she is credited with the amount. She had 2s. to get when she got the work to do.

2252. And she has now 7s.; but the difference between 2s. and 7s. does not show the payment to her?-No; because she might have got more goods at the time, and there would be nothing put down in the book then except the actual balance.

2253. You don't know what goods she got?-No; but I have no doubt the shop-girl will be able to tell.

2254. Can you tell me what payment would be made to a worker of that kind for such a shawl?-I think perhaps 10s. It depends a good deal on the size of thread and on the style of knitting. Of two shawls of the same size, and having the same weight of wool in them, one may be worth 2s. 6d. more for knitting than another, on account of the pattern the girl might put into it, and the style in which it was done.

2255. Then that shawl would be sent south, I presume?-We might sell it here.

2256. What do you consider the value of the material for that shawl, 9 oz.?-That black worsted would have cost us in England about 8s. a pound.

2257. Then the worsted would come to about 4s. 6d. as the value of the material?-Yes.

2258. And 10s. for the work: that would be 14s. 6d.?-Yes.

2259. And 6d. for dressing, or 15s. altogether?-Yes.

2260. At what price would that shawl be invoiced to a customer in the south?-It would depend upon whether it was to a wholesale house or to a retail customer. We have to sell these goods at a lower price to wholesale houses in the south, who have again to sell them, than we would sell them for to others.

2261. In that way there are two classes of customers?-Yes.

2262. Who are your principal correspondents in the south?-[The witness shows the names in a book.] This is the day-book, which we use exclusively for our transactions in hosiery with the south. That book has just been finished. The last entry is 6th November 1871, and since then our entries as to hosiery sent south have gone into our ordinary shop day-book: we have not provided a separate book for them.

2263. You say that you have two classes of customers, wholesale and retail?-Yes; we have wholesale customers, such as these houses whose names I have pointed out to you. We also sell to private persons, and of course we must make a difference. We must sell to these wholesale houses at a much less figure, because they have again to sell them perhaps to the very same retail customers.

2264. At what price would that shawl of Mary Greig's be invoiced to the south?-It is not away yet but I think I will be able to find some of the same [Page 46] kind. It is very difficult to say what it would be, because there is such a difference in the quality of the worsted, and the price of the raw material differs a good deal. For instance, here is black Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound, and here is black mohair wool, 27s. a pound. It would cost us roughly about 2s. an oz.; but that shawl, I should say, would be of Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound. That [showing an entry of a shawl invoiced to a house in London at 20s.] would be something like it. I may mention that an account like that won't be paid for eighteen months, and then it will be paid with a discount of 5 per cent.

2265. Is that a fair specimen of the average sales of shawls?-Yes.

2266. And the average difference between the cost for materials and workmanship?-Yes.

2267. Do you pay the freight?-The consignee pays the freight.

2268. Is this day-book a copy of your invoices which you send to these houses?-Yes. In some cases we copy the invoices in a letter-book, and then re-write them into this day-book. I can produce the letter-book if you wish to see it.

2269. Does not that difference between the price marked in the book and the price you have to pay for materials and workmanship show something in the shape of profit?-Yes, undoubtedly.

2270. Then how do you reconcile that with your previous statement, that there is really no profit upon your hosiery?-I don't think I meant to say that there really was not a profit. What I meant to say was, that, as a rule we would be very well pleased, on an average of all our hosiery goods, just to get what we pay for them. Of course, if you take out a special article here and there, the rule might not hold good; but I think, on the whole, you will find the result to be as I stated.

2271. Do you make any distinction, in your statement with regard to profits, between those cases where an article has been made for you and those in which it has been purchased by you?-I think, as a rule, the articles which we purchase or exchange over the counter are generally sold by us just for what we have paid for them. The others we have a good deal more trouble about. The raw material has to be ordered, and the money paid for it pretty soon; and then it has to be given out, and these accounts kept, and the articles have to be dressed. In fact we have three or four times the trouble about articles of that description which we have with regard to articles that we buy in exchange.

2272. Do you make that profit upon the goods made to your order, by charging a higher price to your customer in the south, or by paying a smaller rate to the women who knit for you?-The rate we pay the work-women here depends on what the other dealers in town are paying. I suppose we all pay much about the same rates.

2273. But I don't see how the same articles if made by one of your own work-women, can be charged at a different price to your customer in the south from what it would be if it were purchased by you across the counter?-As I have said, we have much more trouble with it.

2274. But the customer in the south fixes the price; and you cannot give articles that are really the same in quality at a different price, in consequence of the way in which they have come into your hands?-No; but on some articles we must have less profit than on others, and we must just make the one balance the other.

2275. But your customer would object to take two identical articles at different prices?-No doubt he would; but such articles as these black shawls we never buy over the counter. In fact I don't think I ever did buy one in that way; they are always made to order. We bring in the raw material, and the women knit it up. The material of which these black shawls are made is not Shetland wool. The women don't have it. Of course they could get it if they chose to buy it in the shops: we would sell it to them just the same as anything else.

2276. Do you purchase stockings?-Yes.

2277. You don't have them made?-No; they are all bought over the counter.

2278. Are they generally paid for in goods?-Yes; I may say universally.

2279. Are they made by the people in the country rather than by those in Lerwick?-There are very few made in Lerwick; all the hosiery proper is made in the country districts. When I speak of the hosiery proper, I mean stockings.

2280. What do you call the other kind?-Under-clothing. Articles such as shawls, veils, neckties, and the like, we call fancy work. Then there is under-clothing-men's under shirts, gentlemen's drawers, ladies sleeve, ladies' under-dresses, ladies' drawers ladies' spencers, which are worn under the clothing.

2281. I see in your day-book a charge for half dozen white veils, 12s., that is, 2s. each: is not 2s. a high price for veils?-It depends very much on the quality.

2282. Would that be an average quality?-No; it is a good quality.

2283. Were these purchased or made to order?-I could not say as to that particular lot. The best veils may be specially made or they may be bought. We very often buy veils in the ordinary retail way over the counter, and give 2s. 6d. for them; but these would be particularly well knitted.

2284. Do you give so much as 2s. 6d. for veils?-Yes, for the finest quality.

2285. Then these 2s. veils were sent to a retail house?-Yes; but of course they are buying from us, and we are selling to them, and they get 5 per cent. off that.

2286. What might be the price of these veils to you?-Perhaps 18d. or 20d.

2287. Is there anything else that you wish to state about the hosiery trade?-Nothing that I recollect of, particularly; but I may perhaps be allowed to refer to some of the answers given to questions by the witnesses who were examined before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,156, Mr. George Smith is asked, 'Who supplies them (the knitters) with the wool?'-and he replies, 'That is a very difficult question. They get it chiefly from the small farmers, and sometimes from the merchants?'-I don't see why Mr. Smith should have said that that was a difficult question. There was no difficulty in it whatever.

2288. Where do the knitters generally get their wool?-In the case of the country girls, their families sometimes have sheep running on the scattald, and the wool is their own property, and is spun by some member of the family.

2289. Are there people in the country who collect wool from a number of families and give it out to spin?-I believe, in some districts of the country, there are dealers who buy up the wool and sell it out again as wool. I was to say that the knitters can buy it from them also, or from their neighbours. These are the three ways in which they can get it.

2290. Is the greater part of the wool that is used in Shetland of native production?-Yes; the greater part of it is, except the Bradford and English manufactured wools, principally black mohair and alpaca.

2291. Is much of that sold to women who knit on their own account?-I do not know if there is much sold; but in my own case, if they came to me wanting it, and I had it in stock, they should have it, whether they paid for it in cash or got it put to their account.

2292. If a woman came to you and sold a shawl, and wanted part of the price of it in worsted, would she get it without any demur?-Certainly.

2293. Do you know whether objections are made by any of the merchants to that being done?-I have seen it stated in the evidence that there are such objections.

2294. But, apart from the evidence before this Commission, do you know from your own knowledge, or from the statements of people in Shetland, whether there has been a difficulty in getting worsted for knitting in that way?-Yes, I have heard that.

2295. Do you know from what that difficulty arises?[Page 47]-I do not; unless it is because the dealer thinks that worsted is an article on which he does not have so much profit as on other goods, and is unwilling to give it.

2296. There has been no difficulty of that kind in your shop at any time?-No, none.

2297. Is there any reason why, in dealing with knitters, worsted should be called a money article or a ready-money article, which was only sold to them for money?-The Shetland worsted, which is generally spun in the north isles, in North Yell and Unst, is almost always bought and paid for in cash. It has always been the custom, at least for many years,-I should say for fifteen years,- that when the women come down from the north isles with worsted and sell it either to private persons or in the shops, they are paid for it in cash at the rate of 3d. or 31/2d. or 4d. per cut of nominally 100 threads, which in reality, when counted, runs to 80 or 90. I have seen a cut of worsted for which you paid 8d. supposed to be 100 threads, which when counted was only found to be 55; but that was an extreme case.

2298. But that wool is obtained by merchants or other persons who want it, from Shetland women coming mostly from the north isles?-Yes; where it is principally manufactured.

2299. Is the price of it always paid to them in cash?-As a rule, it is. Perhaps there may be exceptions, but, as a rule, it is paid in cash.

2300. Is that assigned in the trade as a reason why, when it is sold out to other women, it should be paid for by them in cash?-I should say that that was the reason, because there would be no profit on it otherwise. For instance worsted for which a dealer paid 31/2d. a cut would be sold by him at the same price; and if he gave it in exchange for goods, he might be out of his money for weeks or months.

2301. Does he not get more than 31/2d. for it when selling it?-I don't think it. There is a sort of fixed price for the various qualities of it.

2302. Does he not make a profit on retailing it?-No; I think not. He would either refuse to sell it at all, or give it at the price at which he bought it.

2303. Then his purchase of the worsted must have been made primarily for the use of the knitters employed by him?-Yes, I believe so.

2304. So that selling it to those women who knit on their own account would be a little out of his ordinary way of business?- Yes.

2305. He does not profess to get it for that purpose?-No. It is the raw material brought in by him or bought by him for his own uses.

2306. Is it wool or worsted you are speaking of?-Worsted. Before it is carded and spun we call it wool; after it is carded and spun we call it worsted.

2307. It is brought in the shape of worsted?-Yes.

2308. So that all you have been speaking of is really worsted?- Yes.

2309. Is much of that sent south from Shetland by the merchants in the shape of worsted?-Not much, I should say. It is more profitable, of course, for dealers and knitters to make it up, as all the raw material would come to would be comparatively trifling.

2310. Then you are not in the habit of sending it south in the shape of worsted?-No. In fact it is difficult to get. Sometimes we get an order for a small quantity for the south, for darning purposes. When a customer orders a dozen or two dozen socks, he will ask for some worsted along with them for that purpose; but it is not easy sometimes to get that for him. I was to refer to one or two other questions in the previous evidence. In question 44,289 Mr. Walker is asked, 'These merchants have no hold over them as being their tenants?'-and he replies, 'Not in the town, except in very few instances; not as a rule.' Now I don't know what instances he refers to. For my own part, I cannot imagine how any of us Lerwick dealers can have any hold on the Lerwick knitters, because they can come to us or any other body, just as they please.

2311. None of them are your tenants?-No; but even if they were, I don't think it would matter.

2312. If their rent were in arrear, would the merchant not have a hold over them?-He, as their landlord, would just have the same redress as any other landlord would have. Then the next question is, 'Is it considered a lucrative business?-Oh ! immensely so.'

2313. You have already made a statement with regard to that answer; at least you have explained what the profit is?-Yes; but he says, 'I know for a fact, that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s.' Now that is quite incorrect, because with the very lowest price of worsted the cheapest would be at least 4s. 6d.; but for a shawl selling at 30s. the worsted of it would certainly cost me 10s.

2314. Do you mean the worsted of any shawl that would sell for that in the south market or to a south country merchant?-Yes, or to any customer here. We sell a good many of these shawls to ladies in Lerwick, or to any people who come in to buy them; and any shawl that would sell for 30s. the worsted of it would cost 9s. or 10s.

2315. How much would the workmanship of a 30s. shawl come to?-Perhaps 12s., and sometimes more. Sometimes we give as high as 15s. for it. We paid 17s. 6d. last week for making a fine shawl. Then he says, A good deal of the worsted is now made in England, and brought down to Shetland.

2316. Is there much worsted imported from England?-Yes. Mr. Walker says further, 'The demand is so great for the Shetland goods, that it (the worsted) is made in Yorkshire, and brought down at 8s. a pound; and a quarter of a pound of that worsted will make a large shawl.' That is a mistake, because nothing less than half a pound of worsted of that quality could by any possibility make a shawl.

2317. Is 8s. per pound a correct statement of the price?-For some qualities it is. There is a great variety of qualities. The qualities of Pyrenees and mohair and alpaca wools go by numbers, and according to fineness the numbers rise.

2318. Can you mention the various prices at present?-7s. and 8s. per pound for blacks and whites; 9s. and 10s. for scarlet and ingrained colours.

2319. That is for Yorkshire wool?-Yes, of the finer descriptions; and then mohair and alpaca will range from 20s. to 24s. and 30s.

2320. I thought you said 32s. before?-Yes; and I have no doubt some of the numbers are even higher.

2321. I suppose there is not much variety in the size of shawls used for opera-cloaks or dress purposes?-No, they are all made about a size; but the value does not depend so much upon the size as upon the style of the workmanship.

2322. It will also depend to some extent on the quality of the wool?-Yes, to some extent.

2323. But principally on the workmanship?-Yes, it depends in great measure on that; and that is the reason why there are constant disputes with the knitters. Two knitters may come in with two shawls made of the same material and the same size and yet the one will be 25 per cent. better than the other, on account of the work bestowed upon it, and the niceness of the pattern; but it is very difficult to get these girls to understand that they should be paid according to that.

2324. Can you show me any instance of a shawl made of Yorkshire wool for which you paid 20s.? That would be rather a fine quality, would it not?-Yes; that would be mohair or alpaca.

2325. But not the finest quality?-No, not the finest.

2326. We may take that as an average quality. You said it would take about half a pound of material to make the shawl; but you also said that the finer the wools are, the less thread it takes to make them. How much would it take to make a shawl of that kind?-Perhaps it would take 6 oz.

2327. That would be about 7s. 6d. for the material?-Yes; but a great deal depends on the way in which [Page 48] it is knitted. It is almost impossible to say, except with a very special article, what the knitter would get for it, because this is not like a uniform trade at all.

2328. Then you fix the price to the knitter according to the judgment of your eye?-Yes, after the work is brought back. Properly speaking, every shawl requires to be priced individually.

2329. Between what sums would you say that the price of the workmanship of a shawl made of that sort of stuff would vary?- That depends entirely on the workmanship itself. Some of the best knitters we have in town put very high prices on their work.

2330. I am assuming that it varies; but there must be a limit to it. Can you not give what would be about the average?-I will give an instance. About a fortnight ago I bought a shawl from a girl for 35s., made of common Yorkshire wool. It was her own material, and she just came in with it, and sold it over the counter. The material of that shawl, for which I gave her 35s., had not cost her 4s. It was a half-square shawl. It is still lying in the shop, and I can produce it if it is desired. The whole value of that article depended on the workmanship contained in it.

2331. Is it a black or white shawl?-White. It is not even fine Shetland worsted, which is the most valuable sort of thing.

2332. Is fine Shetland worsted more valuable than the other worsted at 32s?-Yes, we can always get a better price; and indeed the article is much more valuable when made of fine white Shetland wool than of fine white English wool, because there is a hardness and coarseness in the English wool that is not in the Shetland.

2333. But you don't pay so much as 32s. per pound for Shetland wool in any case?-No, I doubt think we pay so much as that for it, but the Shetland wool is more rare. The supply of it is limited. You can get any quantity of mohair or alpaca, but you cannot get any quantity of fine Shetland wool.

2334. Do you purchase that quality of fine Shetland wool to any extent?-I buy some of it. I have paid as high as 6d. a cut of nominally 100 threads for it; but that was a rare article. 4d. per cut is the usual thing.

2335. How much is that per pound?-We don't reckon the Shetland worsted by the pound.

2336. But as you do so little business in giving out work, I suppose you don't purchase great quantities of the Shetland wool for your own use?-No.

2337. Is there any other part of the evidence you wish to refer to?-There is another question, 44,301, where Mr. Walker is asked, 'Is it all done through the middle-man?'-referring to the buying of woollen goods: he says, 'Through the merchants. Then, in considering the hosiery matter, when you leave the town, you come to the middle-men, merchants, or merchant factors, or merchant proprietors; in which case the knitters are their tenants. All worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously or on the sly.' I wish to remark with regard to that, that I never heard of such a thing until I saw it here.

2338. Are there hosiery merchants and worsted merchants in the country?-Yes, here and there.

2339. Do they possess any hold over the knitters?-I suppose in some cases they will be factors for the proprietors, and these knitters will be living in family with the tenants who have the holdings.

2340. Do you know any instance of such hosiery merchants being proprietors in the country?-I don't know about them being proprietors.

2341. Or factors for proprietors?-I suppose Spence & Co., in Unst, are in that position.

2342. Are they hosiery merchants?-They deal extensively in hosiery; and I understand they are factors or lessees or the greater part of the island.

2343. But the other fish-curers generally are not hosiery merchants?-I think not, as a rule.

2344. Then you deny that, as a general rule, knitters are bound in any way to sell to dealers in the country?-I never heard of such a thing before especially this statement, that all worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously. That may be true, but I never heard it till I read it in this evidence; and I don't believe it is true.

2345. Do you often send orders to the country?-Yes; we send orders to the merchants in the country for hosiery just the same as we order goods from the south, and the merchants in the country make them up.

2346. Do they have their profit on the hosiery in the first instance?-I suppose so. We pay them in cash.

2347. And you have a commission or a profit in your turn?-Yes, we must have that otherwise it would be no object for us to buy the articles.

2348. Is there any other point in the previous evidence which you wish to mention?-I don't think there is anything else.

2349. Is there any other correction you wish make upon that evidence, or upon the evidence which has been taken here, so far as you have heard it?-No. I heard the evidence of several of these knitting women, and I have no reason to doubt its general correctness.

2350. Is it the case that the knitters are more commonly in debt to the merchant than the other way,-that they are generally rather behind in their accounts with him?-In my own case, I don't think that is so, at least not to any extent.

2351. In a bad season do they not fall behind, and require credit to some extent from the merchant?-I don't think that obtains very much with the knitters. It would obtain more with the fishermen and heads of houses.

2352. But if a woman is depending entirely on knitting for her livelihood, and the prices of provisions are high, while at the same time the prices for knitted goods may happen to be low, is it usual for a merchant to make advances to her in goods or, in cash?- There being no system of cash payments, I would not say that I would make advances of cash to her.

2353. But would the merchant, in such a case, make advances to her in goods?-He probably would. We know most of these knitting girls, and we would not see them at a loss for anything they actually required. I believe most of the dealers would be ready to help them in that way.

2354. Does that come to be any inducement to the knitting women to sell their goods to particular merchants afterwards, or to submit to take their payments in goods when, in other circumstances, they would prefer to have them in cash?-I think, in many cases, if they were in debt to me, they would not scruple very much at walking off and dealing with some other body afterwards, and leaving my debt to take its chance; for they know there would be no legal proceedings taken-no summoning, or anything of that kind. I never heard of any case in Lerwick where a knitter was summoned for any balance which she was due.

2355. Perhaps the balances generally are so small, that it is not worth the merchants' while to summon the women for them?-I daresay that is the case. I have been told that one of the witnesses yesterday, Mrs. Arcus, referred to the state of the trade in my late fathers time and said it was better then, because the women who made these goods were in the habit of getting meal and groceries from my father for them.

2356. Was that actually the case?-It was. For a great many years my father kept meal, barley, rice, sugar, soap, tea, and all sorts of provisions; but the consequence was, that when newer dealers came into the trade, and went more extensively into the drapery goods, then the knitters and people selling for drapery came more upon my father for groceries, on which there was a much smaller profit; and of course that put us to a great disadvantage. The consequence was, that we gradually gave up the grocery part of the trade. I believe that is the explanation of the statement, which I daresay was quite correct.

2357. Of course there are some women who live entirely by knitting? Can you explain how they supply themselves with food if they are paid entirely or almost entirely with goods? Have you turned your [Page 49] attention to that point at all?-No, I must say I was rather astonished to hear some of the evidence which has been given here, although, I have no doubt it was quite correct. It had not occurred to me that some of these women were under such conditions as it appears they are.

2358. However, you have not turned your attention to that point?-No, but I have no doubt that what they said was quite correct; and perhaps there is a grievance there which ought to be remedied. I show you an entry in my invoice-book of a dozen gentleman's drawers sold for 48s., which is exactly the price paid for them in goods. My customer does not pay for eighteen months, so that I lose the interest for that time; and there is also 5 per cent. off at the end of the eighteen months. The two next items are in precisely the same position. They are charged at the nominal prices which we have paid for them in goods.

2359. The long credit which you give, in that case, arises from the state of the market in London?-Yes; these London houses are generally long in paying.

2360. But cannot you get your customers here, from whom you buy the goods, to take less for them?-No, we don't require to do that. I believe that when a woman makes a pair of drawers, or anything else that kind, she cannot be paid for them with less than 4s.

2361. Is that an article in which you deal extensively?-Yes; we buy a good many of them, but it is an article on which we have no profit.

2362. A statement has been made in this inquiry, that the success of a merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate such an amount of bad debts about him as thirls the whole families in a neighbourhood to him, and then he gets on: do you concur in that statement?-I think that statement must have been intended as a burlesque. I cannot understand how any man could thrive by accumulating a large amount of bad debts. I read the statement at the time, but I could not understand it.

2363. It can only mean this: that the man has a number of debts which his debtors have difficulty in paying, but that they are in the course of earning money year after year and that they are compelled to spend entire earnings in is shop: do you think that is the case?-I can only say that in my own business I make a point of making as few debts as possible, and never any bad ones. To make bad debts I should consider a misfortune rather than a piece of good luck.

2364. But they may not be bad debts, although payment of them may be delayed for a long time. It is perhaps a misnomer, to call them bad debts?-Yes I should say so.

2365. I understand you were engaged at one time in the whaling agency business?-Yes, for some years. My brother-in-law and partner managed that part of the business; and he purposes to come forward and give some evidence, and produce books which he kept at that time. We went out of that trade last spring.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, examined.

2366. You are the principal partner of the firm of Robert Sinclair & Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am the sole partner of that firm.

2367. Your stock, I understand, consists of drapery goods and tea?-Drapery, millinery, boots and shoes, tea, and various other articles. I also keep various kinds of groceries-not many; but there are tea, soap, soda, and blue.

2368. You do not keep provisions?-Not provisions.

2369. Do you keep sugar?-No; I do not sell sugar now.

2370. Besides that trade, you are employed in the purchase and sale of hosiery?-I am.

2371. Your hosiery is obtained in two ways: either women that knit upon your employment or from parties who come with their own goods and sell them to you?-They are principally the latter.

2372. How many women can you state, have been employed on an average during the last three years in knitting for you with worsted supplied by you?-I never was at the pains to reckon exactly the number of knitters I had. I should suppose there would be on an average from 80 to 100-sometimes more and sometimes fewer; but that is only a guess. I have books here which will show it exactly.

2373. Are those women who knit for you paid generally in money, or in goods; or is there an account between you?-There is always an account kept with the knitters, and they are paid in cash or in goods-principally in goods; but there is no objection to pay them in cash when they want it.

2374. Are your people instructed to pay in cash when cash is asked for?-I never gave any direct instructions to that effect; but occasionally they may pay in cash when they know a customer well. If it is advances that are wanted, they would require to know the character of the customer to whom the advances are made.

2375. Do you mean to say that the question whether a request for an advance is to be granted or not, depends upon the state of the customer's account at that time?-Exactly, or mostly that.

2376. Then, if a knitter has a considerable amount at her credit, and wants money, is it the rule in your shop that she will get an advance?-She will get an advance in money when she has it to get; but we don't call that an advance,-it is a debt; and it has been generally understood, as has been often stated, that it is goods which they are to get for their work. That rule, however, has often been departed from-more particularly lately.

2377. You say there is an understanding they are to be paid in goods, but that that understanding has been departed from?-Yes, often. But the last question put to me was a double one. With regard to the other part of it,-as to them having a large amount at their credit,-the fact is, that they seldom have anything at their credit, but when the goods come in, they have to be entered to their credit, to make up for advances which they received when they were knitting. That is the rule, but there are several exceptions to it.

2378. As a general rule, has a knitter got more goods from you than the value of her work?-Yes; she generally has got quite equal to the value of it, and frequently more.

2379. You say that she has either got more goods than the value of the hosiery which she brings, or she has got at least up to the value of the work returned?-Yes; generally.

2380. Have you formed any idea as to whether the kind of goods which you supply to your knitters consists to a greater extent of articles of ordinary dress, such as cotton, and dress stuffs, and boots and shoes, or of millinery, and the finer articles which you deal in?-They consist principally of strong usable wearing apparel, boots and shoes, and other things that are generally required for domestic purposes or for their own wear.

2381. You say that you have about 80 or 100 women engaged knitting to you?-I only guessed that. I think there must be more.

2382. Is the system of dealing with the whole of these, that an account is kept?-Yes.

2383. Is that account kept in a pass-book with the knitter?-Not always. When they want a pass-book, they get it. You can see from that book [producing work-book], who have pass-books and who have not.

2384. Has every knitter a separate page in your work-ledger?- Yes; the book speaks for itself.

2385. It may be convenient for both of us if you take the case of Jemima Sandison just now, whose passbook I have got here. Is that pass-book an exact copy of the page in her name in your ledger?-Yes; the entries in both are made, at the same time. She brings the pass-book when she wants any article and the entry is made in the work-book at the same time as in the [Page 50] pass-book. Unless there is any error in summation or date, the one should be an exact transcript of the other.

2386. Is it generally known by you or your shopkeeper whether there is a sum at the credit of the worker, or whether the account stands the other way?-After they have gone on for a while, and when they come in with any work, of course we square up the books and examine them.

2387. In adding up Jemima Sandison's book, I find from November 11, 1870, to December 28, 1871, the amount of goods and cash supplied to her was £3, 5s. 3d.?-Yes; but there is something I may explain with regard to this particular case. All the work she has done does not appear here. If she wants to get wool or any other article, she can get it out of the shop on bringing goods for it, and that does not appear in the book. She sells the goods to us when she has made them, and gets either cash or goods for them according she wishes. That book does not show all our transactions with her.

2388. Some of them may be ready-money transactions?-Not ready-money, but private transactions, that do not appear in the books at all, because the book only contains the goods she gets from us, and for which she returns knitted work. She is paid for the knitting of these goods, and not for the whole value.

2389. How do you distinguish, in that case, between the goods that go into the pass-book and those which she gets, but which do not enter the pass-book?-There is no occasion to distinguish between them at all, because they are separate transactions.

2390. When she comes with a separate article to sell, how do you do?-Suppose a time when trade is dull, as Mr. Laurenson has explained, and we are not making falls (which is the principal thing this woman makes for us), we try to keep her in work by giving her out material, and she makes anything else with it that she likes. We do not enter that in the book at all. She makes it for herself. We may buy it from her, or she may go and sell it to another if she likes; or she, may have a private order for it, and sell it in that way. These transactions do not appear in the book.

2391. But when she comes to you, and you do happen to buy an article in that way from her, is she paid for it to a certain extent in goods?-Yes, if she wants them.

2392. These goods are not entered in the day-book?-Of course not.

2393. You just deliver there to her across the counter, in the same way as you would deliver them to any party who came in to make a ready-money transaction?-Yes.

2394. If she does not want exactly the value of goods which will pay for her shawl, or for any other article which she may have brought to you, do you enter the balance in any book?-No; we do not enter it in the book, except in the line-book. We give her a receipt for the balance, and we give her the balance in cash or in goods at any other time.

2395. If she wishes money for the balance, is it usual thing in your trade to pay it in money?-The fact is that we never refused her money when she asked it. She stated that in her evidence.

2396. That may have been the case with this particular woman, but is it the fact that any knitter who wants a balance of that kind in money is able to get it?-If she has bargained to take goods, and if the price we put on the article be such that we cannot give money on it without making a loss by it, then we don't give the money: we stick to the bargain. If the bargain has been such that it would allow us any little profit on it, then we give it all in money, if they want it in that way.

2397. The question whether she is to get money or goods for the balance, depends on the bargain which the woman has made?- Yes; decidedly.

2398. Can you tell me any case in which you have paid the whole price for hosiery goods in money?-I could tell you many cases of that kind, For instance, I could mention the case of Miss Gifford.

2399. What was the transaction you had with her?-My last transaction with her-indeed I have only had one for a long time-was for a shawl which bought from her; and paid all cash for it.

2400. When was that?-About three months ago.

2401. What was the price?-The price of the shawl was £4, and I gave her four £1 notes for it.

2402. Was not that a very valuable shawl?-Yes but I would rather have taken it and paid money for it, than I would have given barter for a thing that might lie on my hands until the moths eat it.

2403. The quality of the thing was so good, that you wanted to have it at any price?-Yes, and I could charge a small profit on it; but I cannot do that on the great bulk of the things I get.

2404. Did you pay for that in cash because it was an exceptional article?-I paid for it in cash because I wanted it. I would do the same for anything I wanted; but when goods are forced upon us, and goods asked for them, we cannot be expected to put our hands into the till and pay out cash for them.

2405. Are goods forced upon you?-Yes.

2406. Have you no option but to buy them?-No. That is not the meaning of my words. I do not mean that we are forced to buy them, in that sense. I mean, that people come in importuning us to buy goods which we do not want.

2407. You do buy them, however?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

2408. Is it in consequence of the importunity of your customers that you buy them?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

2409. But you say that sometimes you are forced by the importunity of your customers to buy their goods?-Yes; we may be induced to do it by an importunate woman.

2410. And when the importunity is so great that you are constrained to buy them, are these the cases in which you pay in goods?-No; the people often don't want the cash. They don't ask for it. They come to us with the general understanding that the, trade is done in goods-I mean in barter.

2411. Do you say the general understanding is that the payment is to be in goods, and also that you have sometimes to buy goods because you are importuned to do so?-Decidedly. I say I do buy them sometimes, because I cannot get rid of the customer otherwise, but these are exceptional cases.

2412. Is it because of the importunity, or because it is the general custom, that the payment is in goods?-That has been a tradition from time immemorial.

2413. But you have assigned the fact of paying in goods to both of these causes, and I wish to know which of them it is that you really refer it to?-It is sometimes the one and sometimes the other.

2414. But you are not obliged to buy hosiery and pay with goods unless you like?-Not at all; nor for money either. What I stated was, that I would rather pay in cash for a good article which I can sell again, than purchase a thing on barter that I have a great risk in selling. That is the whole import and purpose of what I said.

2415. You instanced one transaction,-that which you had with Elizabeth Gifford?-Yes; and there is another girl, Catherine Brown, who is in Leith just now, from whom I bought a great number of shawls, and paid her cash down for them.

2416. Was that long ago?-It has gone over a number of years.

2417. Was your reason for paying the cash the same in that case: because the articles which you got from her were good?-Yes; they were prime articles.

2418. Is there any one else you wish to mention?-There are many cases in which I paid cash for hosiery articles, although I could not name the persons just now. They were people whose faces I knew, but I cannot recollect their names.

2419. Were these cases in which you paid the whole value in cash?-Yes.

2420. Did these transactions enter your books?-No; the cash was just paid for them at the time.

2421. Do you take no notice of the cash paid out in [Page 51] that way?-Not generally. I don't that there is any special entry in the cash-book showing what it had been paid for.

2422. Don't you take a receipt from such persons?-No, I never did.

2423. Then how do you know the price at which to sell these shawls?-Because I put the prices on the shawls myself.

2424. Do you mark them all at the time?-Yes.

2425. And you swear that no entry of such a payment enters into any of your books?-I swear that, to my knowledge, there is no memorandum taken of a cash transaction carried through in that way. With regard Elizabeth Gifford, I may explain that I gave her a receipt for a shawl to be paid for in cash, and she came to my shop some time afterwards and got the cash.

2426. Then that cash entered your book?-Yes. Here is the entry [produces line-book]: 'C. M. 95. 1. 11.71. Paid in cash, 80s. £4.'

2427. How do you know that is the transaction?-Because it is the only transaction of the kind that is in the book, it is the only transaction in which £4 was paid in cash.

2428. Was that entry all made at one time?-The first part of it was made when she brought the shawl. The date when she got the line is not here.

2429. Then it was on 1st November 1871 that she got the money?-Yes.

2430. The entry made at first was 'C.M. 95. 80s. £4?'-Yes.

2431. And the figures '1. 11. 71,' and the words 'paid in cash,' were inserted when the money was given?-Yes

2432. There is no entry of the date of the issuing of the line at first?-No; the book was not being dated then.

2433. When did the book begin to be dated?-We have the date on the line itself, and therefore it is quite sufficient to enter the numbers of the lines in the book.

2434. But when did the book begin to be dated?-On 30th October.

2435. Then it must have been a few days before 30th October when the line was first given out?-Yes.

2436. To come back to Jemima Sandison's book the total amount supplied to her was £3, 5s. 31/2d. in period of thirteen months, and there was a balance of 16s. to begin with. The amount that appears to have been paid in cash during that time is 3s. 6d. on all these transaction: is that so?-It may be; but I have ready explained that the entries in the book do not represent all the cash which she got from me.

2437. She also appears to have got tea on thirty-seven different occasions, in quantities of 8d., 9d., and 10d. worth at the time?- Yes; that would be a quarter of a pound.

2438. The amount of tea altogether comes to 5d. or more than one-half of the total quantity of all that she got from you. If we assume that she got a amount of tea as part of the previous balance of 16s, there is thus only 8s. 6d. paid in cash, 30s. or more paid in tea, and the rest paid in goods. Can you give me any idea whether the amount of cash paid to this woman on the separate transactions you have been speaking of would be greater or less than the amount appearing in this book?-I could not swear as to what it was, because we are transacting business of that kind with her very frequently, and it is impossible to remember what amount of goods or of cash she got on these particular transactions. I should say that what the book gives about a fair average of what it might be upon the other sales as well, or it might be that it would rather exceed it; but I should wish to remark that she never was refused the cash that was asked for by her.

2439. Do you think the case of this woman Sandison may be taken as a fair specimen of the accounts which you keep with the other women employed by you?-No, there are exceptions; there are some who got a good deal more cash than she did.

2440. Was there any reason, in these other cases, for their getting more cash?-Of course they asked for more and perhaps they needed it. There are some who are equally dependent with her, and who have perhaps less chances of getting money otherwise. As I said, she sometimes makes to order, and gets cash from that source. If you will take the case of Mary Ann Sinclair and her sisters as it appears in the book, you will see that they got more cash than Sandison did.

2441. I see in Mary Ann Sinclair's account on 'September 30, 1868, cash 5s.; October 13, cash for meal 11s. 3d.; November 18, cash 1s.; November 23, to paid William Smith for meal 5s. 4d.; November. 27, cash 1s.' Do you give that as an average specimen of the amount of cash that was paid?-There may be exceptional cases; but I daresay, taking the whole thing, Sandison's pass-book may be regarded as a fair specimen of the way in which the thing has gone on.

2442. In that account of Mary Ann Sinclair's which you have just showed me there is an entry of 5s. 4d. paid to William Smith for meal: who is William Smith?-He is a grocer in town.

2443. Was that paid to him directly, or did the money pass through the hands of the woman Sinclair?-I generally gave her the money, and told her to go anywhere she liked with it; but in some cases, if it happened that I did not have the cash on the counter, or handy, she went to the same person that she used to deal with, or to any one she wanted to go to, and got what she required, and I paid the cash for it perhaps on the same day.

2444. In what way was that transaction carried out? Did you give her a line to go to Smith for the meal?-I don't think it. I have no recollection of doing it.

2445. Is that a common kind of entry in your book?-No.

2446. There is another entry of 11s. 3d, for meal: would that be paid to Smith or to the woman Sinclair?-I think it was paid to herself.

2447. Then why is it entered in your book as being for meal?- Very often we did that in order to distinguish the things she wanted the cash for, and to keep a check on them. For instance, they might come in and ask cash from me and they would receive it.

2448. But why should you wish to keep a check on them in a case like that?-I don't know.

2449. Had you any interest in the way in which the woman was to spend her money?-No; but if we paid cash to a person for one of these women, we marked it down as having been paid.

2450. Then when you put down this sum of 11s. 3d. for meal, did that mean that you had paid the money to Smith or to some other meal-dealer, or that you had paid the money to Mary Ann Sinclair herself?-I cannot recollect.

2451. I only want you to explain, if possible, or to suggest an explanation if you don't remember, about how it happened that that entry was made for meal. If the woman got it in cash, would it not be simply marked down as cash?-I don't remember about that. She might have got the meal from Smith, and paid him the money at any time. She may have told us that she had to pay Smith an account, and asked us to pay it for her. That is the only explanation I can give of it. Sometimes she would ask to get a little meal; and as we did not have meal, we would tell her to go to anyone she liked and get it, and we would pay the party for it. I may say, at the same time, that I did not have a fraction upon that. There was no compact about in between me and the man who supplied her with the meal. We just paid her account to him in cash.

2452. You don't remember either of these payments?-No; I cannot remember them.

2453 Do you know whether such entries are frequent in your books?-They are not; there is no occasion for them being frequent.

2454. Does a woman often come and say to you, 'I want some money to pay for meal or some groceries, and I wish you would give me so much?'-No; I have no recollection of any other case than the one which [Page 52] has been referred to. There may have been cases in which, when selling an article, they may have asked for a few shillings for themselves, and where they may have mentioned what they wanted it for; but with regard to Mary Ann Sinclair's case, to the best of my recollection, this was just an account which I paid for her to a meal-dealer that she was owing it to.

2455. You say that some of your knitters don't have pass-books at all?-The majority of them have.

2456. In that case, the only account kept with them is the one entered in your work-book?-Yes; but whenever we settle, we carefully read over all the items to them and if they take any objection to them, of course they get some explanation.

2457. The work-book you have produced is the current one?- Yes.

2458. Is there any entry in it showing where a pass-book has been given?-Yes; it is generally marked in red pencil where there is a pass-book. There are not many pass-books; I don't think we have a dozen altogether; but the women are never refused a pass-book if they want it. It entails a great deal more trouble on us to keep them.

2459. When you come to settle one of these accounts where there is no pass-book, how do you proceed?-For instance, here is Elizabeth Hunter, from Trondra: she comes into town on September 2, and you find then a balance for articles brought in, which she takes in goods?-She takes more than she has to get.

2460. Are all these items read over to her at that time?-Every item is read over to every person when we settle with them. We always make a point of reading over the account in detail, and satisfying them about it. Sometimes it happens that they cannot remember about a particular thing, and some explanation is given to them, generally by one of the people the shop; and that satisfies them.

2461. Does it sometimes happen that the balance such a case is in favour of the knitter?-Yes; sometimes.

2462. Is it, then, the practice simply to carry the balance on to the new account, or does the woman receive any acknowledgment for the balance?-The balance generally the other way. I may say that we never take goods in advance. They generally go ahead, and we must keep a tight rein on some of them otherwise they would go deep enough. For instance here is a copy of the account of Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined before you on Monday. [Produces copy account.]

2463. Before going into that, I believe you think that in some parts of the previous evidence an erroneous impression has been produced to the effect that no worsted can be got in exchange for the knitted goods?-Yes; I can state that I myself with my own hands have given Elizabeth Robertson worsted in payment for shawls more than once. I have given her the greater part of the value of her shawls, or of the goods she had to sell, in worsted, although that does not appear in her account.

2464. That has occurred when she has brought articles to you for sale or exchange?-Yes.

2465. Do you say you have often given her the greater part of her work in worsted?-I have not often given her the greater part, but I have often given her part, and sometimes the greater part, in worsted. Those in my shop can bear testimony to the same effect, that they have given her worsted too. In fact we never refused to give Pyrenees wool for the knitted goods when we had it, except on rare occasions, when we had very little of it, and had to give it out ourselves for work that we required.

2466. I suppose you know that if you give them that worsted in return for their hosiery, they will bring it back to you?-They may, or they may not.

2467. Do they not bring it to somebody?-They may to somebody, but perhaps not to me. They may have an order for it from a lady in the south, or dispose of it in other ways. We do not ask them what they do with it, unless we give it out to them to make a special article with. The fact is, with regard to that kind of worsted we do scarcely anything in it, but we sell it to any knitter in order to accommodate them.

2468. Then you say you have given Pyrenees worsted to Elizabeth Robertson?-Yes.

2469. Have you ever given her the other kinds of worsted that come from Yorkshire?-That is the same thing.

2470. Is the Pyrenees and the Yorkshire worsted all the same?- No, the Pyrenees is one class. There is mohair worsted. I don't recollect whether I ever gave any of it. It is used, for knitting falls. 'The Pyrenees is generally made into shawls.

2471. Does Robertson generally make shawls-Yes, generally; but she makes falls too. I don't recollect giving her mohair; but I have given her Pyrenees often. She would get any kind when she asked for it; but mohair is a thing we never do sell, because we only bring it in for our own use

2472. Is it the highest priced of all?-Yes.

2473. Is it higher than the Shetland wool?-We don't sell the Shetland wool, except in rare, exceptional cases. The fine wool we never sell, because we have great difficulty in getting it. We never send it south; nor do we sell it in the shop as an article of sale, except on occasions when a person is very much in want of it for any particular purpose.

2474. For darning, for instance?-No, that kind of wool is not fit for darning; it is only the coarser kind that is used in that way.

2475. Then you don't regard the Shetland wool as an article of commerce?-No, it is a material we use for ourselves and we have very great difficulty in getting as much of it as we require. We pay cash for it; and if we were to sell it would put a stop to our trade.

2476. You heard the evidence of Mr. Laurenson about Shetland wool?-Yes; it is something different from my experience. If a lady or a retail dealer in the south orders a Shetland shawl, we don't send a shawl made of Shetland wool unless we know that they want that particular kind, but if we send one of Pyrenees wool, we tell them what it is made of and that if will not do, they can return it.

2477. With regard to the worsted, does the idea that knitters cannot purchase worsted from merchants in Lerwick arise from the fact that the merchants do not regard Shetland wool as an article of commerce?-That is my impression. They not only do not so regard it; but the fact is, if they made it an article of commerce, it would put a stop to their business.

2478. How so?-Because they cannot get sufficient material for their own use and also for sale.

2479. Do you mean that if you sold Shetland wool to any one who asked it, you would not have a sufficient supply for your own trade?-That is one reason; but there is another reason: because it would be like changing a shilling, for the people know the value of these things, and they would just pay me for the wool what I paid for it in cash.

2480. They can get the wool from the same dealers from whom you buy?-Yes, and of course the price of it is as well known to them as to me. Another thing is, that if I take a parcel of worsted of perhaps 600 or 700 cuts, a knitter who wants some of it won't be pleased unless she gets the very pick of it; and for the very pick of it she won't give me any more than I had to pay for the whole of it overhead.

2481. That is substantially what Mr. Laurenson said with regard to the reason for not selling Shetland wool. He does not sell it either?-None of the principal dealers sell it. Sometimes some of the wool is sold to grocers in town who don't deal in shawls, and the knitters buy it from them.

2482. But if the knitters ask for Shetland wool, and offer cash for it, is it usual to sell it?-No, except in very exceptional cases; and you will see that an exception has been made in the case of that girl Robertson.

[Page 53]

2483. You want to point that out?-Yes; I consider that we dealt with her in rather an exceptional way.

2484. I see '12 cuts worsted:' is that what you refer to?-There is more than that in the account. The very first thing is a balance on worsted from a previous account, of 2s.; then on December 16, 1865, she gets 12 and 16 cuts at the same time, but at different prices. The 16 cuts are charged at 3d. per cut, which is a kind of worsted we very seldom sell. Then July 5, 1866, there are 12 cuts; and in 1868 there are other sales of worsted to her.

2485. Is this a copy from your books of the account with Elizabeth Robertson?-Yes; exactly.

2486. The crosses on the side show where worsted has been given?-Yes.

2487. Do these entries refer to Shetland worsted?-I think mostly.

2488. But you say this is an exceptional case?-Yes; it was to favour her that I did it.

2489. Was there any particular reason for favouring her in that way?-It was done because I thought she was a needful person, and she pleaded for it.

2490. Was it that sort of wool that she was in the way of knitting?-It was that kind she wanted; and although I was not in the habit of selling it, I gave it to oblige her.

2491. Do these entries appear in the ordinary account which you kept with her as a knitter employed by you?-She was never employed by me specially.

2492. Did she always knit with her own wool?-Always with me. She did not knit specially to me, that I recollect of I have no recollection of ever employing her. [Shown account in work-book.] I see from this that she has knitted for me. She knitted three shawls for me in 1867. The others are shawls she knitted for herself, and sold in the shop. At 15, March 1870, she was due me £4, 16s. 31/2d.

2493. I see that between March 29 and December 28 she has paid off that balance with the exception about £1?-Yes. Then she said in her evidence that she would not have taken out so much in clothes, or half so much, if it had not been that she was compelled to take goods for her work. Now I would ask how that statement is consistent with the fact that for about twelve months she was due me that sum, mostly for clothes, when she was not asked to take them, but the reverse.

2494. She got them on credit?-Yes.

2495. Then this account of hers you happen to have, because she was knitting at that time for you?-I would not assign that is a reason for her getting the goods.

2496. But I am asking you the reason why you have this account?-Because it is in my books.

2497. I rather understood that the only women who had accounts entered in your books were those who were employed by you as knitters: is not that so?-Of course, when the women get into my debt, I must take note of what they bring to me with which to pay off their debt; and that must pass through my books. I do not take a note of all the transactions over the counter; it is only when a woman runs into debt that anything appears in the books.

2498. Is this account taken from what you call the work-book?- No; it is entered first in our ledgers, and now it has been transferred to the work-book.

2499. Is the ledger a different book?-The work-book is a kind of compound between the two. It was entered first in the one, and then in the other.

2500. But it was because the woman was working for you that the account happened to be put in that form?-Of course. I think that was mostly the way in which the credit was got. She would just creep in and then, and she was in the habit of getting things that she asked for, and these were put into the book. That is the only way in which I can account for her getting them. But I would draw attention to the copy of her account, as showing that she got goods she needed them and it was a mere subterfuge for her to say that she got goods from the merchant although she did not knit for him.

2501. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the evidence of Elizabeth Robertson?-Nothing, except with regard to these two items of it.

2502. When she was under examination she handed me this line [showing line quoted in Elizabeth Robertson's evidence]; and I have also got a line in these

'C. Y. 92.-Credit bearer value in goods for 18s. 'R. SINCLAIR & CO. 'J.J.B. '22. 12. 71.'

Do you give out many of these lines in your business?-Yes, a good many.

2503. How is that?-It is not our wish to give lines, if the women would only take the value out at once; but when they have bargained to take goods for their work or for their hosiery, and they will not take them at the time, what are we to do?-We might enter them in a book, but they prefer to have a line, and come with it and get what they want marked on it later, whenever they want the goods.

2504. What is the meaning of the initial letters at the commencement of the line?-They are put there so that we may be able to identify the lines at a glance and they correspond with the same letters in the line-book, where a check is kept. The numbers begin under each initial letter, and run to 100 consecutively until that number is reached, and then we begin with another initial letter. For instance, after C. W. we have C. X.

2505. There are two letters: how do you explain that?-Because, when we get to the end of the alphabet we must distinguish; we could not begin with again.

2506. In introducing this system of notation you began with?- Yes, and went on to Z.

2507. You numbered these receipts or notes, or whatever they may be called, A 1, A 2, and so on up to A 100, and then you went through the alphabet with one letter until you came to Z 100?- Yes.

2508. When you began to take A A 1, and so on?-I think it was A B, until we came to the end of the alphabet again.

2509. Then you took BA, and so on to B Z, using the double letters BA, 100 times, and the double letters BC 100 times?-Yes.

2510. How long is it since this system was introduced?-I have no recollection how long it is since it began. It is not two years, I think; but it may be more.

2511. Does that mean that you have issued some 6000 or 8000 of these lines in two years?-I suppose so. It will just mean about that.

2512. Can you give me any idea, or do your books give any idea, within what time these lines are brought back to be liquidated?- Sometimes in two hours, and sometimes longer. When we take goods from the knitters, we generally, in order to prevent any mistake, give them a receipt for them in that form; and having other work to do when we are very busy, they take that in their pocket and go away, and then they look in again when we have a slack moment and get the value of it, sometimes on the very same day. I don't know how often it is on the same day, but it is very often.

2513. Are these lines only given to the people who sell you goods, or are they given also to your work-people?-There are very few of the work-people who got lines in that way. It is only when the people selling goods that they may get such a line if they want it.

2514. Can you tell me any of your work-people who have got lines in that way?-I cannot; but the work-book would show if such lines had been given.

2515. In what way does the work-book show it?-By an entry to the individual's debit. I think you will find very few of them.

2516. What do you call these things? Do you call them I O U's, or receipts, or lines; or what are they?-They are just vouchers for their value.

[Page 54]

2517. Is it a general practice in the trade in Lerwick to give these lines?-It is only within the last few years that it has been practised to any extent, and we would, much rather do away with them if we could.

2518. How could they be done away with?-Just by giving the people value for their goods when they bring them. That is the only way I know.

2519. Do you mean the value in cash?-The value in cash or in goods. If it cash tariff were introduced, which I suppose would be better for the whole of us, it would save us all this bother.

2520. Do you think it would be better to have a cash system introduced altogether?-It would be better for the trade, at any rate.

2521. But the nominal price paid to the knitters would in that case be less?-I think that, in some cases, not only the nominal but the real price would be less.

2522. Do you mean that the knitter would really get less value for her work?-I do mean that, as we have always endeavoured to deal on that principle,-to sell on cash terms, and to take the very least we could for the article in cash.

2523. You mean that you take the smallest profit you can on your goods?-Yes. Suppose for instance, a woman comes in with a shawl, the market value of which is 20s. that is the price I should expect to get, and would get, for it.

2524. Do you mean that is the market value in Lerwick?-No; it is the market value in the south. Suppose the value put upon it were £1, I would only get 20s. for it in the south.

2525. Do you sell your goods to retail or wholesale dealers?-I sell them wherever I can get them sold, but the greater part of them are sold wholesale; that is, we sell them wholesale to retail dealers.

2526. You sell them to retail dealers, so that you have only one price, for your goods going south?-Yes.

2527. You heard Mr. Laurenson state that there was sometimes it difference in the price which he charged, according as the sale was one to dealer, or to a dealer who sold retail?-I understood Mr. Laurenson to mean that he made a difference when he sold a shawl to a private customer, and when he sold a dozen or two to a retail dealer; and so do we.

2528. Is that the only difference you make in selling your goods?-Yes; and we think that is only fair the trade.

2529. I interrupted you when you were putting the case of a shawl worth 20s. What did you wish to say about that?-We fix our lowest rate of profits, and we give the people goods the same as if they had cash to lay down for them; and I can bring evidence to that effect if you want it.

2530. Do you mean that you fix your lowest rate of profit upon the hosiery goods you buy?-No; our lowest rate of profit on the goods we sell. A third way of explaining it is, that we treat as cash the goods which we buy. A shawl worth 20s. is reckoned by us as a £1 note would be reckoned,-with this difference, that if a man is laying down a £l note we would give him 5 per cent. discount when he bought our goods. We consider that the trouble we have with the shawls, and the time we lie out of our money, is worth 5 per cent.

2531. Then what you say comes to this: that upon your hosiery goods you make no profit at all?-Not when they are once sold; that is to say, when they are once bought, the profit lies in the profit we have upon the goods. That is the only profit we have in the matter.

2532. But upon the hosiery, looked at by itself, you do not make any profit at all?-No; I say that I make none, and I swear to that most emphatically.

2533. In other words, the profit you make upon your purchases of hosiery is only the profit you make upon your sales of goods, which are given in return for the hosiery?-Yes; in short, it is two sales for one profit.

2534. That is to say, you are obliged to take the hosiery at the market price in the south, in order to get payment for your drapery and other goods?-With regard to that, I am not obliged to take them, further than that is the only thing in the country that reckoned as a kind of payment.

2535. It is the only thing which your purchasers have to give you for your goods?-That is my meaning exactly.

2536. You were going to offer me some evidence of that?-I can give evidence of it afterwards. My own employees can prove it, also women who have been in my employment, and also people who have been purchasing both for cash and goods.

2537. What can they prove?-They can prove that there is no difference between the two prices, and that the price which I charged is the lowest price I can fix.

2538. You are prepared to give evidence of this fact, that the price you allow to the seller of hosiery in Shetland is the price you get from the buyer in the south?-Yes, I can prove that. At least I can prove that it is so on the whole, by comparison, the invoiced prices of the goods sent south with the general prices of goods bought in the country. Here is a list of them [producing trade list].

2539. Is this list what you send to your purchasing customers?- Yes; and if you compare these prices with the prices of similar goods bought at the counter of my shop, you will find that there is no difference. The question was put to me, whether there would be a difference between the nominal value a customer would receive under the present system and if a cash system were introduced. I say there would be a real difference, but ultimately the merchant would be no loser. The difference would lie in this: that if I were compelled to buy goods for cash, that is, if I could not barter them, I would have no profit by giving the same rate that I now give. That, I think, is plain from what I have already stated. Then I would require to buy them at a discount equivalent to the profit I now have on my goods, or else I could not carry on my trade; and that would be the same with whoever dealt in these articles. The cash price we can afford to give for Shetland goods here is just the value we pay for the goods that we give in exchange for them; and if we were to give more than that price, there would be an end of the trade.

2540. Do you not mean that it is the value you pay for the goods you give in exchange, plus your profit upon these goods?-I say the price we could afford to pay in cash is just the price we do pay cash, which is paid not to the knitter, but to the party in the south that we buy our goods from. Our goods cost us cash: that cash, thousands of pounds every year, would go into the hands of the knitters here; but in that case we would just give them that money, less the profit we have on the goods. That is speaking of the thing in a broad sense. There would be a real loss to the knitters in that case where they were fairly dealt with, because they could not get goods without a profit, and they in that case would have to put their hands into their pockets and give a few shillings more. For instance, suppose the case of a 20s. shawl: they get 20s. of real good value for it under the present system. If I were obliged to pay in cash, I suppose I could not give more than 16s. or 17s. for it; and if the individual wanted the very same thing from me which she can now get for the 20s., yet under the other system she would require to go to some other shop and purchase it, paying 3s. or 4s. more for it than she now does.

2541. Is this what it comes to: that if a cash system were introduced, the knitter would be worse off, because the merchant would require to take two profits instead of one?-He would only have one profit to take.

2542. But if it were a cash system, would he have to take two profits?-No, he would not take two profits.

2543. If there were a cash system, would not the [Page 55] buyer of the hosiery from the knitter require to make a profit upon the hosiery?-Decidedly.

2544. And further, would not the seller of the goods to her require to have a profit upon these goods as well?-Certainly.

2545. Therefore there would be two profits?-Yes; there would be two profits taken from the knitter, but not by me.

2546. But I am putting the case of the knitter, and in that case the buyer of the hosiery might be a different person altogether?-That is my meaning.

2547. The knitter would have to sell her hosiery at such a price that the hosiery merchant would make a profit on his re-sale, while she would have to buy the goods at such a price that the dealer from whom she bought them would make something like the present profit which you make upon them?-Yes. Suppose we were to purchase for cash, and the cash system were introduced, in all probability the drapers would be simply drapers, and not hosiers at all; or they might withdraw their capital from the drapery business and embark it in the hosiery business altogether.

2548. Then what you mean to make out is, that at present you are making only one profit?-I do mean to make that out, for it is true; and I am very thankful when I can get it.

2549. How do you prove that there is only one profit at present?- By looking at the prices at which the goods are bought and sold.

2550. Let us take a single instance: you have put in a wholesale trade list for 1870?-Yes; we have later ones, but that will be sufficient for the purpose. There is no difference on them.

2551. Is that list issued at the beginning of the year?-I should like that others proved that, and not me. You can get it from my employees, or from my books, or from people who buy from me.

2552. In what way do you suggest that it should be shown? By this wholesale trade list, and by taking a variety of instances from your books in which prices have been paid for the articles that are mentioned here?-Yes.

2553. How would that be shown in your books?-By entries to the knitters whom we deal with.

2554. We could not find that by the entries in the work-book, because they show it only in detail?-I am not speaking of the work-book just now.

2555. It could only be shown by the sales?-Yes; and of course that list has been prepared from the prices which we pay for the goods.

2556. Do you mean the prices to dealers, or prices to people who sell them over the counter to you?-I mean the prices that we pay to the people for them, and which I pay over to them.

2557. But I think you said that when you buy the goods over the counter, no record is kept of these prices?-No; but the people that we buy them from would tell you the prices they get for them. In some instances, where debts have been paid by means of these goods, there may be entries in the books which will show the prices.

2558. Is there any entry in your books at all of your purchases of hosiery? I rather understood you to say that there was no such entry?-I think I said that when goods were presented for sale, there was note taken of what was given for them; but when goods come from the north isles or from people who send them to us from a distance, we enter them in the books.

2559. Are there dealers in the north isles who send goods to you?-Either dealers or private individuals may send us falls or various other things, and the entries with regard to them will show the prices given for them.

2560. These transactions will appear in the day-book?-I think so.

2561.You think Mr. Sandison, your bookkeeper, would be better able to point these out than you?-He would be better able to lay his hand on them; but sometimes we buy from dealers and pay cash for them, and same thing applies in that case which Mr. Laurenson stated, that we charge a small percentage on these goods, because we pay in cash for them.

2562. You put in the trade list, and you also put in a copy invoice, which you have shown to me, containing the prices at which you have sold the goods there mentioned?-Yes. It shows that there is a certain discount allowed; but that discount does not come off the profits charged on the hosiery, but off the sales of goods I give for them.

2563. Do you calculate that there is a larger profit upon hosiery goods which are made by your own knitters than on those which you buy and sell in the way you have described?-That is it question I have sometimes asked myself; and, taking the thing altogether, I don't think there is much difference.

2564. Don't you allow a little for the extra trouble and risk you have with your knitters?-There is a certain market price that we cannot get beyond. We must take the price in the market. Unless one merchant was able to monopolize the trade altogether, and force up the prices, he would not get more than the market price of the goods.

2565. You have said that the footing on which you settle with your knitters and with those who sell to you is, that the bargain between you is that they are to take goods?-That is the understanding. We do not make any formal bargain.

2566. Is that bargain made with the knitters whom you employ at the time when you give out the wool?-I have said already that we make no formal bargain, but it is generally understood that we pay them in kind. They know that, and consequently they very seldom ask for anything else. But we don't stick entirely to that.

2567. You sometimes give them cash?-Yes.

2568. Is it regarded as a great favour to pay them a considerable sum in cash?-I may give an instance. The general price paid for knitting a fall of Shetland yarn is about 1s. That is about the average price, although the coarser quality may be lower than that. The yarn for that fall costs us from 6d. to 7d. That is paid in cash; and the girl is paid part in cash and part in goods, or it may be all in goods. That brings up the cost to 19d.; but if it is wanted black we must pay freight south, in order to have it dyed, and freight back to Shetland. We also pay for the dyeing of it; and these things altogether come to about 11/2d. per fall-that is 1s. 81/2d.; and then there is dressing, 1d.

2569. When do you send it south for dyeing?-When it is made.

2570. And do you bring it back here to be dressed?-Yes; that is an additional expense upon it, which has never been pointed out.

2571. Could it not be dressed in the south?-No, it could not.

2572. It must come back here simply for the dressing?-Yes; we could not value it unless we got it back and sorted it, and knew the value of it.

2573. You don't know the value of it until it is dressed?-We do not ask ourselves the value before then. We know the average value of them pretty nearly; but we send them south, and get them back dyed, and then we must dress them. There are a number of them which may be damaged, either in the working or the dyeing, and that detracts from their value, and that very fall I am now referring to, when it comes to be sold, will not bring more than perhaps 2s. In that way you can calculate where our profit lies. There are cheaper falls that do not bring more than 18d., and sometimes even lower.

2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding is that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so time out of mind: I remember a time about forty years ago, when it was different and when there were two prices on goods which they sold.

2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to per cent. of difference. I remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do know it [Page 56] myself, because I was not in the trade then, a woman may have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying cash for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of, the natives thought that was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known and done avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was not possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the same rate because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was, that the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon the goods. What I mean is that, supposing a woman came in with a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that a person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it, might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high, whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would not have made any difference; although it had been as many pounds higher, while the relative proportions were kept up between the value of the two articles.

2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of.

2577. If a woman puts a higher price on her goods, is it not the usual thing for a merchant to put a little additional on the price of the goods which he is to give her in exchange?-I don't know what other merchants do, but we never do it. Only the other day, a woman carried out two shawls which I could have bought if I had departed from our usual practice, but I thought they were priced too high. I could have sold the shawls at 1s. or 2s. lower, but I would not buy them these terms. We have one fixed price for cash and goods. I am not aware whether the practice I have mentioned exists now in the town; I don't think it does. When I commenced business I made it a point fix my price in that way, and I have always adhered that. I was told by some parties I would never do business in that manner; but I had some faith in common sense, and I hoped the people would come to see that they were as well dealt with in taking the real cash value and getting the real cash value; so that we never give a higher price than we consider the thing is worth in the market, and we do not give lower.

2578. You say your understanding is, that goods are to be taken in payment, but that cash is given to a small extent: do you not consider that to be a departure from the understanding?- Decidedly.

2579. You do that, as a favour to the knitter?-Yes; and I wish it to be distinctly understood, that in every case when I give 1s. of cash, I consider it is just 2d. out of my pocket.

2580. Would you not have that profit if the 1s. was spent in your shop?-Yes.

2581. With regard to the lines or receipts which you issue, can you say whether they are generally presented at your shop by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are made payable to the bearer, and they may not be presented by these parties.

2582. But, in point of fact, are they generally presented by the parties to whom they have been given out?-It is impossible to know who they have been given out to, or who brings them back.

2583. Then what is the purpose of your keeping this register of them?-It is a check upon the lines. If we had no check of that kind, we would not know what lines were out.

2584. And you would not know what amount was lying out in that way?-No; that is one reason for keeping it. Another thing is, that if a line was lost, and its value paid to another person who had found it, we could see by this book when it was paid.

2585. Could it show to whom it was paid?-No.

2586. I suppose the lines themselves are destroyed when they have been settled for?-Yes.

2587. You have no means of telling from your books, whether they have been presented by the original creditor in them, or by another?-No.

2588. And you don't know about that from your own personal knowledge?-As regards my own personal knowledge, I know that, in the generality of cases, they are presented by the parties to whom they have been given originally.

2589. Does that lead you to conclude that this system of lines is not a new kind of currency that has been generally adopted in Shetland?-I never heard of that.

2590. Does one of these lines pass from hand to hand, in payment for what the creditor in it wants?-Not to my knowledge. It is only now or lately that I have ever heard of such a thing being done.

2591. You have not known of them being transferred to other hands, and being presented by some one from whom the knitter has obtained other goods or services?-There never was any such thing stated to me.

2592. Of course you pay the value of the line to any one who presents it?-Yes. There was a girl, Borthwick, examined here, who said she had to sell her tea at half-price, in order to get other things which she wanted. I spoke to her about it, and said I had never heard of such a thing being done before, and that she must be a great fool to do anything of the kind; for she had come to us and said that she wanted the money, she would have got it upon giving a small discount for it.

2593. Have you actually given money upon that discount when requested?-I have.

2594. That is to say, one of these lines has been presented to you and cash asked for it?-Yes; part cash. I have sometimes given cash on these lines, although it was goods that was bargained for.

2595. The lines bear to be payable in goods?-Yes; but when I saw that the person was really requiring the cash, and that it was not just a 'try-on,' as it were, I took 2d. off the 1s. and paid in cash.

2596. May that have occurred often?-No; very seldom.

2597. Has it been lately?-Yes. I was obliged to make that deduction, because, if I had not done so, it would have opened a door for a system which would have robbed us of every penny of profit. If we were obliged to pay cash instead of goods, we would have no profit at all.

2598. But that has occurred sometimes?-I think it has only occurred twice in the whole of my transactions.

2599. When a discount is taken in that way, how is the entry made in the line-book?-The lines are entered when they are finally paid up. The way in which they are paid does not appear here at all.

2600. Then that discount will not appear in the book?-No; but I may say that I often give small sums of cash on these lines without taking a discount, where I think the person is really in need of it.

2601. I think you said these lines were very seldom given to women whom you employ to knit for you?-Very seldom, I think.

2602. Can you name any of these women who have got them?-I cannot; perhaps Mr. Sandison can. He is more in the way of settling with these people than I am.

2603. Have you any dealings in stockings and the commoner kinds of hosiery?-The price-list will show that.

2604. Is the system of dealing in these just the same as you have already described?-The same principle applies to all the trade.

2605. That kind of goods is generally brought in from the country, I understand?-Yes, generally.

2606. Is it the case that people coming in from the country take goods more readily than the town?-There are very few of the people from the country who ask for cash, but they are now beginning [Page 57] to do it. They think the Truck Commission will force us to give cash.

2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want cash.

2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with that?-I don't know. We have no objection to give them cash, if they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have already explained.

2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?- I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so.

2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the parties, but I would know their faces at once.

2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth £1. At that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to them, 'Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for them in money?' One of them said, 'Oh, I ken you will just be going to give us money.' I said, 'Why? Don't you think the goods you get cost us money?' She said, 'I ken that fine. I will give my 20s. shawl for 18s. 6d.' I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it, and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, 'No,' and that it would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl. I said, 'I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken off.

2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, 'I would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the plaid in exchange for the shawl?' That was her answer to me.

2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so. Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect.

2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for meal?-Not often for meal.

2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small sums for such things when the people want them.

2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it.

2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash transaction.

2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect.

2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not have it.

2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and another in which the entry is, 'Paid William Smith for meal.' Do you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal from some one; but I really cannot say what took place

2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, 'I want so much money for meal,' I would have gone to the counter and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she could not get the money; or there might not have been money at the counter at the time; and in that case I would say 'Go over to William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him again.' I don't think there was any great breach of honesty in that.

2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion about the way in which those women supply themselves with provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that so?-Yes.

2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the greater part of it, in goods, I don't quite see as yet where the money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never complained to me about it.

2624. Don't they say, when they come to you and beg you to give them a little money rather than goods, that they must have something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom they ask for money.

2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?- These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For instance, there are the Sinclair girls.

2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that way?-Yes.

2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a little money.

2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don't know that I can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it may be accounted for.

2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that. They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country.

2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes.

2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting.

2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they were really in want.

2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor persons starving when I could help them.

2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that they don't like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know; but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as everywhere else.

2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the fall that we sell most.

2636. I don't mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well, the busy season is getting over.

[Page 58]

2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20 also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the 21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very busy.

2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out quite so many each day?-Perhaps not.

2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not been long in currency.

2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do that, but I thought it was better to give the people an acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them in.

2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no distinction.

2642. You cannot say that the one class of women get them more commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do.

2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses, Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d. due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle. I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get cash.

2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the time.

2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of goods.

2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson's evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s. shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a 30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.; dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d.

2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don't know what the retail dealer's charge for it would be.

2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes.

2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes.

2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one.

2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no profit?

2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value of the thing. We don't get our wool for barter; the wool costs us cash

2653. You allow something for interest on the price of the wool?-Yes. I say that is what I would have to pay for a shawl of that value in cash if I were buying it, or if I were trying to get it made.

2654. You would pay 26s. 6d., and you would sell it at 30s.?- Yes.

2655. Do you not call the 3s. 6d. a profit?-I do; but then in that case there is nothing else for a profit.

2656. You are supposing that you pay the 26s. 6d. in cash? If you were paying for the shawl in goods, would you pay 26s. 6d., or anything more?-If I were paying for it in goods, I would pay 30s. There might 6d. less or 6d. more; but as far as my experience goes of this kind of goods, and selling them at a wholesale price, I could not expect to realize a higher price for them than I pay, taking discounts and all together.

2657. What is the kind of evidence you are to give me to prove that there is no profit on a 30s. shawl which you pay for in goods?-I have no evidence to offer as to that.

2658. Except your trade list?-That would be taking a wide view of the thing. It would embrace the whole trade. The case I have given is a special one in contradiction of the statement made, which was a false one that a Shetland shawl could be made at that price.

2659. The list enables you to say what you sell the articles for, and you leave me to find out the price you pay from particular cases?-Yes; and if an examination of my books would help you in that, they are open to you. I am also prepared to give you the names of a number of women who would be able to tell you what prices they get for their goods.

2660. Can you give me any particular kind of goods which you think would be a fair test of that?-You may take the winter shawls, white, brown, and grey, natural colours, and straight borders.

2661. Do you think that would be a fair test?-I think it would.

2662. But there are no entries in your books which will show at what price you bought these shawls?-There may be. If a woman brings in a shawl, and gets so much goods at the time, then the balance only might be marked down, and that would be no guide to you; but at other times the whole price is marked.

2663. That is, where there are credit balances with people who come to you with shawls?-Yes.

2664. Which book will show that?-The day-book or women's ledger.

2665. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I don't think there is anything else.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT LINKLATER, examined.

2666. You carry on business as a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2667. You purchase hosiery, and you keep a stock of drapery goods, and tea, and other articles?-Yes. Tea is the only thing in the grocery line which I keep.

2668. Have you heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses?- Only of the last witness.

2669. Is the manner of conducting business in your establishment similar to that which has been described as being carried on in Mr. Sinclair's?-Very similar; there are some differences.

2670. You deal with knitters of two kinds-women who knit with your wool, and those who sell to you?-Yes.

2671. In both cases are the settlements usually made by means of goods which they take from you?-Yes, principally.

2672. In what proportion is money paid to women who knit with your wool?-I cannot say what the proportion may be.

[Page 59]

2673. But is there a much larger proportion of the prices taken in goods?-Yes, very much larger.

2674. Is it the general rule that it is to be paid in goods?-Yes, it is the understanding that goods are given out.

2675. And that any money that is paid is the exception?-Yes.

2676. Is the dealing with these women usually carried on by means of pass-books?-The greater number of the knitters whom I employ have pass-books.

2677. And these pass-books are transcripts of the accounts kept in your ledger?-Yes.

2678. You ledger, I presume, is kept on the principle of having a page for the account of each woman?-Yes; or sometimes a page for two.

2679. On the one side there are the entries of goods got by the woman, and on the other there are entered the payments due to her for knitting?-There is double money column which shows both the credit and debit on the same side.

2680. How many women do you generally employ to knit for you?-I could not say exactly; but I think there might be over 300.

2681. Are these scattered all over the island?-Yes, all over the country.

2682. Is it a subject of complaint with these women that they do not get payment for their work in money?-No; I have not heard much complaint about that.

2683. The understanding is, that the payment is to be in goods?- Yes, it is the understanding that goods are to be taken when the work is given out; but I give a good deal of money.

2681. Is it considered a matter of favour when a woman gets payment in money when she asks for it?-No, I don't think it.

2685. If a woman asks for money rather than goods, is it given to her as a matter of course?-As a matter of course.

2686. Is that done whenever she asks for money?-As far as my recollection goes, it is. The greater number of the knitters whom I employ live in the country, and they very seldom ask for money. When they come in with their work, I generally ask them what they want, and they select the goods which they require.

2687. Do you know Mrs. Jemima Brown or Tait?-Yes; her sister, Harriet Brown, is the only one I have in my books.

2688. Have you ever told Mrs. Tait, or any of her sisters, that you could not give them money, and that you never did it?-I don't remember doing that. I don't remember any money being asked by them.

2689. Is it likely you said that?-I don't think I said it. I don't think I would say it, if I had goods of hers in my hand.

2690. Did she knit with your wool?-Yes. I have no recollection of her asking for money and being refused.

2691. I suppose a knitter of that kind is not likely to ask for money unless there is a balance coming to her upon her account?-It is not likely, and I think there is rather a balance against her.

2692. Is it a probable thing that you may have refused to give her money?- I don't think I did so.

2693. May your shopman, Mr. Anderson, have done so?-Not so far as I know.

2694. Do you issue any kind of lines or acknowledgments for the balances upon sales made to you?-I give no lines.

2695. If a party comes and sells a shawl to you, and does not wish goods to the whole value of it, what is done?-I understand you to refer to goods bought over the counter; in that case I mark the balance down in a book. If they come with a shawl or any other article, and sell it over the counter, and if they don't wish goods to the whole value, I mark the balance down in any name that is given to me.

2696. In what way is that entered?-It is entered on the back of the day-book by itself.

2697. Is there a special place in the day-book for making entries of that kind?-Yes.

2698. They are put under the particular date?-Yes.

2699. And are these balances generally settled up within a short time afterwards?-Generally.

2700. The party comes back soon to you for goods?-Sometimes soon, and sometimes she delays a good while.

2701. Is it usual for a party who has a balance of that kind to ask to get it in cash?-No; that is not usual at all.

2702. When you buy a shawl in that way, do you consider it to be part of your bargain that the payment is to be taken in goods?- Yes; it is distinctly sold for goods in exchange, and paid for in that way.

2703. Is that because there is a distinct understanding to that effect prevailing among the people, or is it stated at the time when the bargain is made?-It is not stated at the time, but there is a distinct understanding that payment is to be taken in goods.

2704. Will you show me the way in which these balances are entered?-[Produces day-book.]. The entry is merely the name of the party and the amount left. I generally put the date upon the top of the page but not the date for each entry.

2705. Then all these entries at the end of the book are entries of balances due by you?-Yes.

2706. And when a party comes and gets the goods, the balance is marked as 'settled'?-Yes.

2707. Where there is a sum like 3s. 4d. or 7s. 101/2d. due, there must sometimes be a little difficulty in making it square exactly, is there not?-No difficulty whatever.

2708. Is there not a difficulty in getting the exact quantity of goods to answer to that balance?-No, I don't see any difficulty.

2709. The woman may want so many yards of cotton, or a pair of gloves, or a packet of tea, and she may bring up the sum to 7s. 6d. or 7s. 3d., there being 7s. 101/2d. due to her; in such a case, how do you square off the balance?-She always takes the full value of it when she comes to settle.

2710. If the goods she gets come to something more than the balance due to her, does she pay the rest in money?-If it comes to anything more, she either pays it in money, or she may have another piece of goods to sell.

2711. Suppose 7s. 101/2d. is the sum at her credit, and she takes various articles amounting to 7s. 7d., leaving 31/2d. over, might she not have some difficulty in selecting an article to cover that?-No, I don't find any difficulty in that at all.

2712. I suppose you or your shopman can suggest something very easily?-Well, there is always something required.

2713. Have you often been importuned by these women to pay them in money, because they could not supply themselves with the means of living unless they were paid for their work partly in cash?-No; there are many cases where cash is given.

2714. These are cases where the people were in circumstances to require it?-Yes.

2715. And I suppose you are acquainted with these cases?-Yes; I generally know the people who are actually requiring money when they ask for it.

2716. Do people often ask for money in that way?-Not often.

2717. Then there are few of them who are in circumstances to require money?-I should not say that. I think there are many of them who require money.

2718. Do you mean that many of them are in need of money payments for their knitting, in order to provide themselves with the necessaries of life?-In the town there are a good many who at particular seasons of the year have other ways of working outside as well as knitting.

2719. For these, do they get money payments?-Yes.

2720. Or they have friends with whom they live?-Yes; and in the country there are a great many who live with their parents.

2721. But there are some women who depend entirely upon their knitting for a living?-I believe there are.

[Page 60]

2722. You don't know any of them yourself?-I could not mark out any one.

2723. But when you do meet with a woman of that description, and have dealings with her, cash payments must sometimes be made?-Yes; it little cash.

2724. If she takes her goods from you and only little cash, how do you suppose she supplements her means of living?-Just in the way I have stated, by working outside at the proper season of the year.

2725. Is that in the fish-curing business?-There is fish-curing, but there is other work outside besides that.

2726. Do you agree with the preceding witness, that there are two prices for hosiery goods bought-a cash price, and a price when paid in goods?-I very seldom buy goods for cash.

2727. But if you were doing so, would you have two prices?-I would not give the same price in cash as in goods.

2728. Do you also agree with his statement, that where you buy a shawl or other Shetland hosiery for goods, you do not get any profit except the profit which you have upon the goods?-I would not say that.

2729. In pricing a shawl, do you allow a certain margin for your own profit?-There must be that; because we get a very great deal of bad stock, and a good many of the things lie on our hands for a considerable time before we can realize what they cost us, and therefore we must have a margin for profit.

2730. There has been a statement made, that a shawl which sells in the south for 30s. can be made in Shetland for 26s. 6d.; do you agree with that?-Yes; from about 25s. to 26s. 6d.

2731. You think that statement is about correct?-Yes.

2732. Is that the price you would give in cash for such a shawl?-I am not prepared to say that. Until a cash tariff comes in, I could not decidedly say what I would give for it.

2733. Is that because of the rarity of your dealings in cash?-It is not exactly that; I should think that there would be an ordinary profit.

2734. I am speaking of a shawl that would sell in the south for 30s.; would the price you give for that shawl in goods be 26s. 6d.?-No; would be nearer 30s. in goods, perhaps about 28s. 6d.

2735. And if you were to buy it for cash, the price would be from 25s. to 26s.?-Perhaps about 26s.

2736. Then, if a similar shawl were made by your own knitters, how would you calculate the cost of production? would you supply a certain amount of Shetland wool?-Yes.

2737. How much would it require?-I think it would require about 35 or 36 cuts at 4d.-12s.; 13s. for the knitting of the shawl, and 6d. for the dressing; making 25s. 6d. That is for a white shawl, without speaking of dyeing at all.

2738. Do you deal in the commoner hosiery?-Yes.

2739. Is the system pursued in that business the same as you have described?-Yes.

2740. There is no difference that you think worth referring to?- No.

2741. Do you agree generally with Mr. Sinclair on all the other points he has spoken to?-I do.

2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't remember anything else on which you incline to differ from him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined to differ from him.

2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl.

2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr. Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence.

2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl would cost me about 12s.

2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference of about 3s.

2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes.

2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for about that much less, or about 27s.

2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less.

2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?- Yes.

2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?- Yes.

2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much Shetland wool as we want.

2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own use.

2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost price when it comes to be bad stock.

2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction.

2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit.

2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them.

2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that with myself.

2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes; with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities than are required.

2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on.

2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting.

2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods, can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do so occasionally.

2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south, and sold as raw material.

2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves, and those who knit with the wool which we give out.

2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's underclothing and stockings.

2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more that occurs to me to say.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined.

2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am.

2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes.

2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell are tea and soap.

2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed.

2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in that way is mostly done by purchase.

2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with them is just kept in the day-book and ledger.

2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes.

2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and sometimes not.

2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase.

2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ. I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up. With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her knitting or not.

2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time. I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for money.

2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods, and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes.

2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it.

2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?- There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at present. I have never wrought up any of it.

2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we give it out upon the work that is brought in.

2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to give Scotch wool.

2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool.

2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is sometimes called Scotch wool too.

2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes.

2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form:

'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods. JAMES TULLOCH 3. 1. 72.'

There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line.

2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up.

2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows the private mark too, and he puts it there.

2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a matter of convenience for them that they are given at all.

2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes. Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes when we are in a hurry.

2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting; and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.

2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.

2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash a little with that, but I can easily explain it.

2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.

2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s. or 7s. for it to another.

2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes, wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good graces of a good customer, so prices vary.

2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy? You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is quite true.

2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater quantity.

2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of the same value?-No.

2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s. or 16s.

2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to give in goods?-I don't recollect any case of that kind just now, except one.

2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few months.

2803. What were the circumstances of that transaction?-It was one of these fine shawls. I don't know what I would have offered for it, but the person said she would give it to me for £2 in money, and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62] I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had expected. The woman had got £1 of money at the time when the bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods.

2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted.

2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it as I expected from hearing of it.

2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an undressed state, and sometimes much worse.

2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods.

2808. Don't you think it would be better for the merchant?-I don't know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now.

2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that.

2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his risk, would he not?-There much competition in the trade already that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above what the goods actually realize.

2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?- Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of trade.

2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes such a keen competition that people cut up one another.

2813. Do you think the competition, would be so keen that the cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no doubt they might by that means be able to drive others comparatively out of the trade.

2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have sold.

2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite general.

2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated, we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south as to enable us to do that.

2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I buy.

2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me.

2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it.

2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but only a day-book and ledger.

2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south, and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined.

2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar

2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the same way?-Yes.

2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes.

2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30 to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don't think I have a dozen altogether just now.

2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes.

2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any time, I will give it.

2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes.

2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may be a balance on one side or the other.

2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that are never entered here at all.

2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No; when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it appears in the book at all.

2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum on a piece of paper.

2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind.

2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the wool before it goes out.

2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by you in money?-I cannot say.

2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot say, but I think there will be more than that.

2837. May there be 2s.?-I cannot say exactly. Perhaps if they come with a shawl for which they are to get 8s. or 10s., they may get 1s. or 2s. upon it, but if they did not ask it, they would not get it.

2838. The understanding is that you pay them goods?-Yes.

2839. Are you often asked to give some money?-Very seldom; but whenever they ask for money, they get it, or any other thing I have in the shop.

2840. Can you explain how women who knit for you support themselves if they only get soft goods and tea for their knitting?- There are very few of them who do not do other work. There may be a few who do nothing but knit, but the greater part of the girls and women who employ themselves at knitting have other work to do besides. Some of them sew slop shirts for the agents shops, and various other things.

2841. These are required for the men who go to the whale-fishing?-Yes. [Produces day-book.] The [Page 63] details of the goods sent south are all there. It is only the amount that is posted into the ledger.

2842. What would be the cost of producing this one dozen socks [showing]?-They were bought with barter for exactly the same value of goods as is charged for them there. I have also to be at the expense of dressing them and packing them, and then perhaps lying out of my money for twelve months.

2843. Then you dress them for nothing?-I must dress them for nothing.

2844. Is not that a loss to you?-Yes.

2845. And you must pay yourself for that out of the profit on the goods which you give for them?-Yes.

2846. Is that a common thing in your trade?-I believe it is. Of course there are some of the articles on which there is a profit.

2847. I see here 'One brown half hap shawl, 3s. 9d.:' would there be a profit upon that?-There would not be much; perhaps there would be 8d. on it.

2848. 'One large hap, 18s.:' would you have a profit on that?- Yes; I might have about 2s. That article was made specially to order.

2849. Was it made with, your own wool?-Yes.

2850. 'One white hap, 9s. 6d.?'-There might be about 1s. on that hap.

2851. Was it bought over the counter for goods?-I think that one was made upon an order; but it was paid for by me in goods.

2852. There is another one at 9s. 6d.?-That is one of the same size and of the same colour.

2853. Suppose that 9s. 6d. hap had not been made to order, but had been bought over the counter and had been settled for with goods, what profit do you suppose would have been upon it apart from the goods?-I cannot say.

2854. Was 9s. 6d. the price which you paid to the party selling, or was it somewhat less?-It was 8s. 6d., and I would have a profit of a shilling on it.

2855. That was when it was knitted for you?-Yes.

2856. But I am speaking of articles which were bought by you: what profit would you have upon such an article then?-I could not tell unless I knew the kind of goods they were to take for it.

2857. But apart from the goods altogether, what would you give for a shawl that you would sell for 9s. 6d., if it was offered to you for sale?-Perhaps I might give 9s. 6d. worth or goods.

2858. Would that be the usual way of dealing?-Sometimes it is. It depends very much upon the quality of the article. Sometimes we pay a dear price for them, and at other times we get them pretty cheap.

2859. Do you say that you generally buy an article of that kind at the price payable in goods for which you sell it to the merchant in the south?-Very often we do.

2860. Therefore you take no profit off your hosiery at all?-In some cases we do not. We cannot get it; we are glad to get what we pay in goods for them.

2861. So that the fact that you get your goods disposed of, is the inducement which you have in buying an article over the counter?-Yes.

2862. Is that one of the reasons why this system of dealing in goods continues?-I believe that is the very reason of it, and the scarcity of money.

2863. Do you approve of the system, or would you rather have cash payments?-I would rather have cash payments.

2864. In that case would you not have two profits instead of one? You would make, sure of a profit on the hosiery, as you would be able to pay for it in cash?-Yes.

2865. And would you not have the same profit that you now have on the goods that you give for the hosiery?-I think we might.

2866. Would you not have a smaller profit upon them?-Of course, if we were selling for cash over the counter, we would try to cut the goods as low as we could.

2867. If you were selling your goods for cash over the counter instead of for hosiery, would you reduce your prices?-We could do that quite easily; because often we buy hosiery articles which lie on our hands for years and the moths get into them, and we get nothing for them at all.

2868. Therefore, in consequence of being paid in hosiery you must put a higher price upon the drapery goods and tea that you sell?-I do not put a higher price on them in consequence of that, because I generally charge the same price to those from whom I get hosiery as to those who pay me in cash.

2869. But if there was no such thing as paying hosiery with goods, you could sell your goods a little cheaper, because you must calculate upon a little loss on the hosiery?-Yes.

2870. So that both the customers who pay in hosiery, and those who pay in cash, are made to pay for a possible loss upon the hosiery?-Yes.

2871. In that way they are made to pay rather higher for their goods?-Yes.

2872. Does not that rather show that the system is a source of loss to the whole community?-There is not the slightest doubt about it, but what can we do until things are put upon a better footing.

2873. You would be glad to pay in cash if you could get your goods disposed of?-I would be very glad. For one thing, it would save us a little trouble.

2874. There is a complicated system of bookkeeping entailed by the present system?-There is.

2875. Have you had any balances to settle on lines or acknowledgments or vouchers?-No; I do not give any lines. I have always been against it.

2876. Did you give any formerly?-I gave them very rarely, unless when I could not help it.

2877. That is to say when a person came to sell hosiery to you and she did not want to take the whole price out in goods, you gave her a line?-Yes; if there was a balance then they would want a line for it.

2878. Would they not have preferred money?-They never asked for money; at least very seldom.

2879. How long, is it since you ceased to give these lines?-I have not given any lines for the last two years, or nearly that time, and I just gave them occasionally.

2880. What was your reason for laying down that rule?-Because there was such a great deal of bother about it. At a time when you were busy they would come in and pop down their lines and that is another secret in the line business. Some of the people like to sell shawls and get a line for them and then they go away and give that line to some other person, and that person comes in and orders goods of different kinds and prices them at the lowest rate we can give them for. Then, when they have screwed us down to the lowest price, they throw their line down upon the counter the same as if it were a bank-note.

2881. They do so, after having bargained and bothered with you to get you to reduce your prices, on the footing that they were to pay you in cash?-Yes; and of course you cannot refuse the line when it is offered to you. You must just take it and say nothing.

2882. Was that one of the reasons why you gave up giving lines?- It was not exactly for that I gave it up, but it was one of the reasons, because it was a great annoyance and bother. They would come in with the lines perhaps on mail-day, and bother us then.

2883. But a person might come in with a shawl on mail-day, and wish to take the value of it in goods. What would you do then?-I might tell them to come back again, and they would do it.

2884. Would they not do that if they had a line?-They would take care of that. They would get the goods they wanted, and then they would pop the line in.

2885. Then you think you are under an obligation to serve the people whenever they choose, if they have a line of yours?-Yes.

2886. But if the people have bargained with you, and you had offered them goods at a somewhat lower price for cash, and if a line was then offered to you in the way you have mentioned, would you not refuse to take the line in exchange for the goods?- No, I would not. It would not be right to do it.

[Page 64]

2887. Would you not say,-If you are to pay with a line, you must take the goods at the ordinary price?-I never thought of doing that, and I don't think anybody would do it.

2888. You would not like to have the appearance of drawing back from your bargain?-No; it would not look very well.

2889. Have you heard any of the evidence that has been given to-day?-I was present when Mr. Laurenson was examined, and also during the first part of Mr. Sinclair's examination.

2890. Do you concur generally with the statements which Mr. Laurenson made with regard to the trade in Lerwick?-Yes; I think he gave a very just statement.

2891. You think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.

2892. Do you know how the women who live alone, and entirely by knitting, get their provisions?-I used to keep meal, but I don't do it now. I cannot do it, because it destroyed my place with moths.

2893. Do you know how these women supply themselves with meal now?-I cannot say.

2894. Most of them are likely employed at other work as well as at nitting?-Yes.

2895. But some of them will do nothing else?-There are very few who do nothing else, except those who are in bad health, and who are not able to work outside.

2896. Have you known any of these women taking goods from you and selling them again, in order to get money?-No; I never heard of any one doing that, so far as I know.

2897. But at the time when you gave I O U's they often exchanged them for money?-Yes; or gave them to some other body to come to my shop with them. These are the only cases where I knew of them being exchanged. I heard yesterday, when I was present, that yarn had been refused upon these lines, but I always gave them yarn when they asked it from me.

2898. Did you give them Shetland yarn?-I seldom had it for my own use, but I have often given them Pyrenees wool.

2899. I suppose the reason why the idea has arisen among the knitters that they cannot get wool in exchange for their work, is because Shetland wool is very difficult to get?-I suppose so.

2900. The merchants don't keep it for sale?-No; they cannot get enough of it. I may say that I supply the women with sugar and tea, and with paraffin oil when have it.

2901. I think you are the only soft goods merchant in Lerwick who keeps sugar?-I don't know. Perhaps there are more; but I keep sugar, tea, coffee, rice, and brimstone, which they need for dressing their shawls.

2902. Is it the case that your purchases of hosiery are more commonly paid in tea and sugar than in drapery goods?-The knitters who work to me generally take what tea and sugar they require. They also take drapery goods when they need them. When we buy hosiery over the counter, it is generally drapery goods that are paid for them; but they get tea also if they ask for it.

2903. The tea is made up in quarter-pound parcels?-Yes.

2904. Do you know of any case where it has been exchanged after being purchased from you?-No.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, HUGH LINKLATER, examined.

2905. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

2906. Is the business which you carry on similar to that of Mr. Laurenson?-No. I don't give out wool for people to knit. I only purchase a little over the counter, and I do very little of any kind in the fancy line.

2907. You do more in the coarser hosiery?-Yes.

2908. Do you deal largely in that business?-No, I don't do much in hosiery at all.

2909. What is your business?-Selling drapery goods.

2910. Do you sell them in the ordinary way for cash?-Yes, and I take a little hosiery when it is offered in exchange.

2911. But the bulk of your transactions are in cash?-Yes.

2912. Are you engaged in any other business?-No.

2913. Do you concur generally in the evidence which Mr. Laurenson gave, so far as the hosiery business is concerned?-I do. I think he gave a very fair statement of it.

2914. You do not wish to add anything to it?-No, for it is not much that I do in that line. I may say that I don't do any in fancy goods at all, I am not much acquainted with them.

2915. But you have a considerable trade in drapery goods and tea for cash?-Yes, or in exchange for goods. It is principally with country people that I deal.

2916. With small farmers and such like?-Yes.

2917. Do you find that they are generally ready and able to pay you in cash for the goods you sell?-There are some cases where I hate to lie out of it for a good while.

2918. But your general mode of dealing is in cash?-Yes; but if they come forward with an article which is suitable for my hosiery trade, I may take it and give them goods for it, the same as if they were to pay me in cash.

2919. Money payments are the rule in your shop, and hosiery the exception?-Yes.

2920. But when you are offered hosiery, is there a different price charged by you for your I make no difference. I buy their hosiery, such of it as I accept, the same as cash, and I expect to get a cash price for it.

2921. In selling hosiery, do you put a profit upon it?-By no means.

2922. You sell it at the price which you put upon it to the person who brought it?-Yes, so that I can get the price of my goods.

2923. You regard it merely as a currency in which you are paid for your proper drapery goods?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JOHN MANSON, examined.

2924. You were at one time a fisherman at Dunrossness?-Yes.

2925. You are now employed on weekly wages by Mr. Harrison, fish merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.

2926. You cure his fish when they are landed in Bressay?-Yes.

2927. You are his superintendent there and have charge of all his men?-Yes.

2928. How many men are employed under you?-It is generally women and lads who are employed under me.

2929. Is Mr. Harrison a large trader in the home fishing?-Not in the home fishing; principally in the Faroe fishing.

2930. Are his fish from that fishery landed in Bressay?-Yes.

2931. How many people are generally employed there?-The numbers vary according to the demand for work. They may range from 80 to 60 hands daily for five months in the year, during the fish-curing season.

2932. Mr. Harrison has a store in Lerwick, where he sells all kinds of provisions and dry goods?-Yes, he has a provision shop and a clothier's shop; they are different shops.

2933. Do you and the other persons employed in his fish-curing establishment deal at these shops? Do you get your supplies for your families there?-Not generally, unless we choose to do so.

2934. But in point of fact, do you get many of your [Page 65] supplies there?-I buy the greater part of my groceries from that shop.

2935. Is there any obligation upon you to do so?-No.

2936. You have never been told that you ought to do that?-No.

2937. Do you deal at the shop for ready money?-Yes.

2938. You pay for the articles as you get them?-Yes.

2939. How are your wages paid to you?-In cash.

2940. Are you paid at the end of each week?-Yes; unless when the weather prevents us from getting across the Sound, which does not very often occur.

2941. When you or any of your family come over to make your market in Lerwick, and go to Mr. Harrison's shop, do you bring with you the money which has been paid to you in Bressay?-We are paid at Lerwick in Mr. Harrison's office, for our work; and if we choose to go into either of his shops we can do so. We get the cash at the office; and if we go to the shop, we pay that cash for the soft goods or groceries which we get, but we can take the money to any other shop we please.

2942. Is the office near the shop?-The office and the clothier's shop are connected they are both on the same premises.

2943. Do many of the people employed under you deal at these shops?-Not so far as I am aware. They do deal there in a certain way, but not in a compulsory way.

2944. Is there any system of pass-books carried on there?-Not so far as I am aware.

2945. You don't think any of them have pass books at the shop?- I don't think it. I may mention in passing, that very often when we get our wages, instead of being urged to buy from them, are cautioned to use our wages in the most economical way possible, and to go elsewhere if we think we can be better

2946. Who cautioned you in that way?-Mr. Harrison himself. I don't mention that as giving you an idea that there is any grievance in the way of our not getting as good remuneration for our money in these shops as we do elsewhere, but to show the independence of the service. We are in no way bound.

2947. I know that you have not come here because you have any complaint at all?-No; I have no complaint to make in that way.

2948. Do you find the supplies which you get in these shops to be quite satisfactory?-Quite satisfactory.

2949. Do you know anything with regard to the dealings at that store of men employed, in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, a little.

2950. Is that from your own personal knowledge, or merely from hearsay?-A little from my own personal knowledge. I know the way in which the men deal with regard to getting their outfit when the fishing commences.

2951. You know that they go to the store for their outfit and that is put down in a ledger account against each man?-Yes, each man has generally a private account for himself.

2952. The contract for the Faroe fishing is that the fisherman makes certain supplies for the ship, and he is to get one half of the take?-Yes.

2953. Is the price for the fish fixed at the beginning of the season or at the end?-At the end.

2954. And no fisherman knows the price he is to get until the settlement time comes round?-Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.

2955. During the absence of the fisherman at the fishing, are his family generally supplied with goods from the employer's store?- Generally; if the family are in circumstances to require supplies. Plenty of them do not require them, but those who do are supplied in that way.

2956. Do you mean that they are supplied with goods?-They are supplied with goods and cash.

2957. How does it happen that some of them do not require supplies?-A few of them live in the country, and have little patches of land, and they do not require so much goods during the season as others.

2958. Do you know the way in which the business is conducted as between these fishermen and the store?-So far as I know, they get what they ask.

2959. Do they get what money they ask?-They get money or goods, whatever they ask.

2960. And an account runs, which is settled at the end of the year?-Yes.

2961. Is there any obligation on these Faroe fishermen to deal at the store?-Not so far as I am aware.

2962. Are they not obliged to deal there for their outfit?-It is generally understood that they will take their outfit there, because it is more like giving them an advance of money than anything else.

2963. What is the name of Mr. Harrison's store-keeper in Lerwick?-There is no special storekeeper; he has several shopkeepers.

2964. But who attends to the shop?-James Mouat is in the clothier's shop.

2965. Who gives out the stores to the fishermen for their outfit?- Mouat generally gives them anything in the way of soft goods, and Gilbert Harrison, junr. supplies them with what they require in the provision shop.

2966. However you have not much experience of that part of the business?-Not much.

2967. I suppose you don't know much about Dunrossness at present?-Not much just now; it is ten years since I was a regular resident there.

2968. Have you been there lately?-It is about twelve months since I was there last.

2969. Have you relations living there still?-Yes. I have brothers there.

2970. What was the reason for your leaving Dunrossness?- Because I thought I could better myself elsewhere.

2971. Had you a farm there?-Yes.

2972. Have you one here?-No.

2973. When you were at Dunrossness, were you bound to fish to any particular person?-No; I happened not to be bound at that time, but I was singular in that respect because there were not many who were not bound.

2974. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a fisherman not to be able to fish for any one he likes?-It is quite common where the landlord is also a fishcurer.

2975. Can you tell me any men who are so bound in any part of the islands?-I think that generally the tenants on the estates of Mr Grierson and Mr. Bruce are bound to fish for their landlords.

2976. You don't know any other case within your own knowledge where a fisherman has been checked for fishing to another than his landlord or tacksman?-No, not within my own knowledge.

2977. Nor for taking goods from a store other than that of his landlord, or employer?-No; I understand that is the case in other parts of Shetland, but only from report. I don't know it from personal knowledge.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 66]

Lerwick: Saturday, January 6, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

MALCOLM MALCOLMSON, examined

2978. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick?-I am.

2979. Do you hold land there?-My father holds land under Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

2980. Robert Mouat was formerly tacksman of Channerwick and Levenwick under Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

2981. He carried on a fish-curing business there up till last year?- Yes.

2982. During the time he held the tack, were the tenants there in use to fish for and deliver their fish to Mouat?-Yes.

2983. Was it supposed that there was an obligation on them to deliver their fish to him only?-Yes; they thought so.

2984. Was it the case that there was such an obligation?-It was not, but in their ignorance, they did not know otherwise.

2985. How do you know it was not the case?-Because afterwards, when he was put out of the place, Mr. Bruce, the proprietor, told them they never were bound to Mouat; only that if he gave them as high a price as was given in the country, and served them as well in every respect as they could be served anywhere else, why should they not fish to him as well as to another? If, however, Mouat came anything short of that, then they were under no obligation whatever, but they could put their produce where they pleased, and they had only to pay him their rent on a given day.

2986. When did Mr. Bruce tell you that?-In 1871.

2987. Had he never told you so before?-He never told the tenants that before. He had given a statement to Mouat before, but Mouat never revealed it to the tenantry until after his departure; and then it was known, and only then, how matters stood.

2988. To whom did Mr. Bruce make that statement? Was it in writing, or to some particular person?-I could not exactly answer that for I have never seen the statement myself. It is only from hearsay among the tenantry at large that I know about it.

2989. Have you heard that from many of the tenants?-Yes, from many.

2990. What is your father's name?-Malcom Malcolmson. He is unable to come here, unless it is absolutely necessary.

2991. Is he not in good health?-No; not at present.

2992. Was it the practice in Mouat's time to require the tenants to deliver their fish to him only?-Yes.

2993. Did he object to their selling them to others?-Yes.

2994. Did he turn out any people for doing so, or threaten to turn them out?-He threatened a few, and turned out one

2995. Who was that one?-Henry Sinclair, Levenwick.

2996. Was that a long time ago?-Yes; a few years ago. I don't remember the number of years in particular but it is a good while ago.

2997. You have given me a letter in these terms:

'MOUL, 18<th Jan>. 1869. 'Mr. Malcolm Malcolmson. 'Dear Sir,-I am sorrey to think that I shoud hav met to-day what I have, but you will be pleased to lok out for A place at Martamas 1869, 'ROBT. MOUAT, 'as I am goen to set your land.'

What had he met that day?-He had received intelligence from his storekeeper at Channerwick that Malcolm Malcolmson's son (that is myself) had given part of the fish of Thomas Jamieson's boat to another fish-merchant, Thomas Tulloch, in Sandwick parish.

2998. Does Tulloch live in Sandwick?-Yes, near Sand Lodge.

2999. He keeps a shop and cures fish there?-Yes.

3000. How do you know that that was the reason for this letter being written?-Because Mouat told my father himself in my presence.

3001. Was that before or after the letter was received?-It was after the letter was received, and when my father asked the reason why he was to give his land to another.

3002. Was your father put out of the farm at that time?-He was not.

3003. How did that happen?-Because he lost the use of one of his hands or of his right thumb, and Mouat had a sort of sympathy with him as being unable to earn his bread as he used to do before, and therefore he let him alone for a season until he could get round again, and regain perfect health and strength, but before that season rolled round, Mouat was out the place himself.

3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else.

3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with from other stores. We received no money during the fishing season.

3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing season?-Yes; but they were refused.

3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no reason, except that he could not give it.

3008. But you would get any kind of goods you wanted?-Yes.

3009. What was the quality of the goods at Mouats' store?-They were of a very inferior quality to what we could purchase anywhere else in the island.

3010. Are you speaking just now from your own knowledge, or from the common understanding of the people about?-I am speaking from nothing else but my own knowledge.

3011. But are you a good judge of the quality of goods?-I cannot say that I am a very good judge, only I know well enough a bad article from a good one.

3012. What particular thing are you speaking of just now?-Say cottons, moleskins, and cloth.

3013. And what as to the provisions?-They were of inferior quality as well. We had meal from his store which he called his second flour. It was as dear, if not dearer, than we could purchase it anywhere else, and it was of such a quality that it could not be eaten by human beings.

3014. Then you did not eat it?-It had to be eaten for the support of life, while it existed; but had it not been for the provisions that came from other stores, and from people who had them to sell, Mouat's tenantry could not have been alive now, and I among the rest.

3015. How could they get provisions from other stores if they had no money to purchase them with?-They made a statement of how they were situated under Mouat, and how they could not receive any meal at all, and that they had to give all their fish to him; and the other shopkeepers felt such sympathy for them, that they gave them supplies to save their own lives and the lives of their families, and to put the men to the fishing. At the same time, when they gave them these supplies, they had no expectation whatever of receiving anything for them from a good many, because they were so poor that they could not give it.

3016. Do you think the storekeepers gave the fisher [Page 67] men credit, without any expectation of being repaid?-One of the shopkeepers told me so himself.

3017. Who was that?-James Smith, Hill Cottage, Sandwick parish.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, WILLIAM MANSON, examined.

3018. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick, in Sandwick parish?- Yes.

3019. Do you hold a piece of land under Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

3020. It was formerly included in the tack to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3021. Were you bound to fish for Mouat?-Yes.

3022. Did you give your fish to any other merchant during the time of his tack?-Yes. In 1870, the year that Mouat failed in business, I gave my fish to James Smith, because I saw I could not live for want of meal, and therefore I and some others were determined to give our fish where we could get both meat and money; and for doing so, Mouat served me with a summons.

3023. Were Smith and Tulloch the only fish merchants in that neighbourhood besides Mouat?-Yes; they cure fish, but not in a large way.

3024. But they buy your fish, and sell you provisions and goods?- Yes.

3025. In consequence of selling your fish to Smith, did you receive a letter from Mouat?-Yes; I have lost that letter.

3026. Did it warn you that you were to leave your ground?-Yes.

3027. Did you also get a formal warning to quit?-I did. I have it. [Produces summons of removing.]

3028. This is a summons at the instance of Robert Mouat, residing in Lerwick, principal tenant under Robert Bruce, Esq. of Simbister, dated 29th September 1870, giving you warning to leave at Martinmas: was that summons served upon you by a sheriff officer?-Yes.

3029. Did you leave in consequence of it?-No; it was in the latter part of the harvest that I received it, which was a very inconvenient time for me to leave, and I went to Mouat and spoke to him about it. He told me that if I would promise to be an obedient tenant, and agree to fish for him the same as I had been doing before, and pay the expense of the summons, I could stay. I knew that it was then coming towards the end of his lease, and I agreed to do that. If I had thought he was to continue longer on the place, I would have left.

3030. Did you pay for the summons?-I did.

3031. You have handed me another letter in the following terms:

'MOUL, 1869, <Jan>. 18<th>. 'THOMAS JAMIESON. 'LAURANCE MALCOLMSON. 'WILLIAM MANSON. 'WILLIAM MOUAT.

'I this day duly give you notice to look out for A house at Martamas 1869, as I am not incline to keep such men as you for your preasent condick.

'ROBERT MOUAT.'

3032. What does that letter refer to?-It was sent to us because we had allowed Malcolm Malcolmson to give his share of the fish away to another merchant than Mouat.

3033. You understood Mouat to refer to Malcolmson having sold, his fish to Tulloch?-Yes.

3034. This letter was written at an earlier period than the warning you received yourself?-Yes, the year before.

3035. How do you know it was that particular act on your part which caused this letter to be written?-Because Mouat told me so himself.

3036. When did he tell you so?-That same year, just a few days after the letter was written

3037. How was it that you did not leave your ground at that time?-We just never minded him, but went on as we had been doing. I and the rest of the men fished for him, and that man fished for Thomas Tulloch as he had been doing, and Mouat never asked anything about it afterwards. He just annulled the letter, as it were.

3038. You have produced another summons of removing: what does it refer to?-It is the summons that was served upon another man, Thomas Jamieson, at the same time that the summons was served upon me, and for the same thing. He knew that I was coming here, and he wanted me to bring his summons also, that I might show it to you. He had also fished for James Smith in 1870.

3039. Have you anything to say about Mouat's shop?-It was very little worth.

3040. Did you get all your goods there?-Yes.

3041. Were you obliged to take them there?-We were because we could not get them anywhere else.

3042. Did Mouat tell you that you must take them from him?-He did not say that we must take them; but when we were fishing for him, and getting no money, we were obliged to go and take our goods from his shop. Although they had been double the price of what they were anywhere else, we had no other way of doing. We could not make a better of it.

3043. You think the quality of the articles you got there was not good?-It was not.

3044. The meal especially was bad?-Yes; the meal was worst.

3045. Was the tea good?-No; it was bad, and it was dear.

3046. For whom were you fishing last year?-For James Smith.

3047. Are you perfectly at liberty now to fish for any one you please?-Yes, we are at perfect liberty.

3048. Smith is not a tacksman?-No; he just takes our fish, and pays us well for them, as high as can be got in the place.

3049. Do you deal at Smith's shop?-Yes.

3050. And you settle with him annually?-Yes; I have just settled with him this week.

3051. Had you a balance to receive from him?-Yes; £4, 14s.

3052. That was your balance of the season's fishing, after deducting the price of the goods you had got during the season from his shop?-Yes.

3053. Is that a usual balance in a good season, or is it under or over?-It is just about the general thing.

3054. Was that paid to you in cash?-Yes.

3055. You paid your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

3056. Have Hay & Co. any fish-curing places in that neighbourhood?-No, they have a place down at Dunrossness, but that is a long way from us.

3057. You are not expected to fish for them?-No; we have heard nothing about that yet.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT ANDERSON, examined.

3058. You are principal shopman to Mr. Robert Linklater, merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.

3059. I understand you desire to make some explanation with regard to the evidence of two women who were examined here?- Yes; of Margaret Tulloch, and of Mrs. Thomas Anderson, Margaret Tulloch said she refused to take worsted from us to knit, because she could not get cash for her work. I have to state that we refused to give her work because she kept it so very long; and when she was asked why she had kept it so long, she said she had so many lodgers, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. The last thing she had from us was a small handkerchief, the knitting of which was worth 1s. 6d., and which could easily be [Page 68] made in three days. She had it in hand for two days short of five months. Mrs. Anderson made the same remark, that she would not take worsted, because she could not get cash for her knitting. I have the same explanation to make with regard to her, that we refused her work because kept it too long. She got a little shawl to knit on 28d February 1870, and she returned it to use on 14th June. The knitting of it cost 2s.

3060. You find that from your work-book?-Yes. When we asked her why she kept the work so long, she replied that she had so much out-door work to do, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. Then there was one of the girls Brown, Mrs. Tait, who was examined the first day, and who said, I think, that I would not give her cash, but would only give it to my favourites. There are some sisters of that family, and the book was in name of one of the sisters. I only recollect her asking me once for a shilling, which I gave her.

3061. If she got cash, would it not appear in the book?-Yes.

3062. Did she sometimes deal with you in the way of selling her hosiery?-No.

3063. She always knitted for you?-Yes. On 2d July 1869 there is cash 1s. marked: that is the only time I recollect her asking it; and she got it, although I may have made the remark when handing it to her, that we were not in the habit of giving cash. I did not refuse it for all that, but in the act of handing it I may have made that remark.

3064. Mr. Linklater stated that there are about 300 people knitting for him: are the names of all these parties entered in your work-book in separate accounts?-Yes. [Produces work-book.]

3065. Will you show me the way, you make settlement with one of your workers?-Here [showing] is the case of Mary Henry, a country girl.

3066. Is that a good enough instance of it?-Yes. She brings in ten veils, and she has to get 1s. each for knitting them. That is entered to her credit. She will ask what she is to get, and we tell her. Then she will take whatever she wants at that time. She may have sent the veils in with another girl, and come in afterwards herself to get the goods.

3067. I see she has taken out 17s. 41/2d., worth in goods?-She had taken out the amount she had to get, and she brought in other ten veils afterwards, the date of which I find is not marked. Then she asked what she had to get, and she was told it was 4s. 111/2d. We would ask her if she was to settle for that, and she said yes, and we marked it settled.

3068. Was that 4s. 111/2d, which is marked as the balance due to her, paid in cash or got in goods?-It was got in goods entirely.

3069. The items of that do not appear here?-No. When we are busy we scarcely have time to enter all the items; but at other times, when we are not so busy, we enter them all.

3070. It is a rule in your business that you do not give lines for a balance of that kind?-Yes.

3071. You do not give them on a purchase of goods either?-No.

3072. Do the purchases of goods from parties who do not knit with your worsted appear in any of your books?-No; unless a balance is left, and it appears in the end of the day-book where I now point it out. [Showing.] On page 38 there is the account of Helen Arcus, our dresser.

3073. Is that Mrs. Arcus who has been examined?-No; she does not dress for us. That account of Helen Arcus is entirely for dressing.

3074. Is it settled by goods?-No. I wish to explain how we deal with her. She gets out a quantity of shawls and veils or neckties to dress. When they are finished, she brings them down to our hosiery shop where we keep our hosiery and she gets the amount marked on a bit of a line with which she goes to the other shop. I ask her what she wants and perhaps if the amount is 8s. 71/2d. she will ask for a quarter pound of tea for 10d. I then ask her what she wants next, and she says, 'I want 2s. or 3s. in cash.' There is then a balance left, which I mark in the book thus 'By 4s. 81/2d.,' which stands as a balance due to her. If she wants any cash in the interim between that time and the time when she brings down her dressing, she comes to the shop and gets cash, say 6d., or any goods she requires. She gets at the very least 5s. a week in cash all the year round. That does not appear in the book, but she gets whatever she asks.

3075. How do you balance the account when the time comes for doing that?-We add up the two sides of it.

3076. I see that each line in the account contains both debit and credit entries?-Yes, but there are two money columns at the end, and the entries are carried out to them according as they are debit or credit.

3077. How do you do with regard to sending goods south?-When we get orders for Shetland goods in the winter time, they go to our house in Edinburgh. We have already forwarded goods there, and they are kept in store; the orders received at that season are executed there, and a statement is sent down to us. This [producing document] is one of the statements which have been sent from Edinburgh for veils, and here [producing document] is another for shawls. I have brought a sample of each.

3078. The veils are numbered according to quality?-Yes. When we send them of different prices, there must be a different number, to let the people in the south know what the prices are.

3079. You fix the price here at which they are to be sold in Edinburgh?-Yes.

3080. That is the wholesale price?-Yes. Here is June 4: 4 dozen grey veils No. 1, 18s.-£3, 12s.; 4 dozen grey veils No. 6, 21s.- £4, 4s.; 3 dozen No. 7, 27s.-£4, 1s.

3081. Have these grey veils No. 1 been knitted for you by your own knitters?-The principal part of them; but we buy some.

3082. Show me one of the entries of the payment to a knitter for these veils?-I could scarcely show it for these identical veils.

3083. But for veils of the very same quality?-I should think this [showing] would be of the same quality: '10 veils, 9d.-Barbara Pottinger, Burra Isle.'

3084. Then the No. 1 veil which you sell at 1s. 6d. would cost 9d. for the knitting?-We pay 9d. for the knitting of it.

3085. You give out the worsted: what will that cost?-I should think for the coarsest, about 5d.

3086. Would that be the price you pay for it, or the price you would ask for it from a knitter?-It is the price we pay for it; it is Shetland wool.

3087. Which you don't sell?-Which we don't sell. We sell no kinds of wool.

3088. What does the veil cost you for dressing?-11/2d.

3089. Is there any other expense connected with?-There is not on that identical veil, but there is other expense connected with the trade.

3090. Have you to pay freight?-Not freight; but when we get a quantity of goods of that kind, perhaps one-half of them cannot be sold as they are. The colour is so uneven, that we have to send them south and dye a great part of them.

3091. Do you send one-half of each lot south?-Sometimes one-half, and sometimes more and sometimes less.

3092. What is the cost of dyeing?-We pay 1s. a dozen for dyeing; and there is the freight south and the freight back again, and we require to re-dress a great many of them.

3093. So that some of these veils may actually cost you 1s. 6d.?- Yes; and some of them cost less.

3094. What margin of profit does that leave?-I really cannot say. I think no Shetland merchant can tell the exact profit he has on any of his goods.

3095. But there are a number of incidental expenses of that kind, which bring the actual cost of the veils up to about 1s. 6d. apiece?-Yes.

[Page 69]

3096. May that be said with regard to other goods also?-It can be said of shawls.

3097. You think the expenses of that kind for sending south, and dyeing and re-dressing, often make the cost of production nearly equal to the selling price?-Yes; and in many cases more than the selling price.

3098. How much wool would there be in a dozen of these Shetland veils?-I should say there would be twenty-one cuts of Shetland wool in a dozen No. 1 veils at 18s.

3099. What is the price of that Shetland wool per cut?-3d. is the price for a fairish quality. Some of the veils turn out very bad from the 3d. worsted, while others turn out to be a little better.

3100. Therefore the worsted costs 5s. 3d., the knitting 9s., and the dressing 1s. 6d.: that leaves 2s. 3d. What proportion of these veils can go to the market without any dyeing or re-dressing?-I don't think there will be more than half of them. The worsted looks very well before it is given out to the knitter; but when it comes back, there are dark and light bars through it.

3101. Then upon one-half of them you have the expense of a double freight to Edinburgh, and also the expense of dyeing and of re-dressing?-Yes.

3102. But it is only a fraction of those sent south require to be re-dressed when they come back?-They all require to be re-dressed when they come back from the dyers.

3103. What dyers do you send them to?-P. & P. Campbell, Cockburn Street, Edinburgh.

3104. What is their charge for dyeing?-I think it 1s. 6d.; but they give 5 per cent. off at the end of the season.

3105. Coming to the English wool; I see there are four dozen black veils No. 5s. 33s., made with English wool: what quantity of wool is required to make dozen of these?-It requires about 3 oz. for a dozen, or about a quarter oz. to make a single veil.

3106. Do you sell that wool by the ounce or the pound?-We buy it by the pound, at 32s. 6d.

3107. Then 3 oz. would cost about 6s.?-Yes; a fraction over that. We don't give them to the knitters here; we give them to a person in the country, who gets them knitted for us. We pay 14s. for the knitting of them to that person in the country.

3108. Is there any particular reason for employing a party in the country for that kind of goods?-We think we can get them better done in that district of the country.

3109. Where is that?-In Unst.

3110. Who is your agent there?-It is a private person. I would rather not tell her name in public.

3111. What is the expense of dressing these veils?-1s. 6d. a dozen.

3112. Does the same proportion of them require dyeing as in the other case?-No; none of these require dyeing, because they are black.

3113. Then there is no expense for dyeing with regard to them?- Very seldom.

3114. Is that sum of 21s. 6d. the whole cost of production of these veils?-No.

3115. What additional cost is there?-There is about the same proportion of them both in the knitting and in the dressing that gets damaged, we cannot get the prices for them that we allow for the knitting.

3116. Do you mean that such a large proportion of them are destroyed in the knitting and the dressing, that you cannot sell them?-Yes; we cannot sell them at very much more than half-price.

3117. What proportion of them are so damaged?-I cannot say exactly; but I should think about the same proportion as in the other case.

3118. Therefore the high price you put upon these veils is intended to cover the loss incurred in that way?-Yes.

3319. The damage, I understand, occurs in the dressing?-Yes; and in the knitting too. There are a good many black lumps in the wool, and the people are very careless, and knit in the black lumps, and thus destroy the veils.

3120. Under what description do you sell these damaged veils?- As job lots; but I wish to state that the woman whom we employ in this way is a dealer, and we have to give the goods to her at a very great reduction. We have to give them to her at the wholesale price. The goods which we pay for the knitting are sold much cheaper to her than to others.

3121. You pay this woman in goods?-Yes; at wholesale prices. It is almost the same as cash, because we have to give the goods so much cheaper.

3122. Does she keep a shop?-No; but she deals in a small way. I think she has a room in which she has some small things. It is in one sense a shop, and in another it is not.

3123. Do you require as much as 11s. 6d. to cover what you lose on the job lots?-I think we do.

3124. Have you any books here which show an entry of a job lot of that kind?-I don't have them here.

3125. How does that appear in your books?-They are entered as so many dozen veils job.

3126. They are entered in that way in your day-book as sent south to your correspondent in Edinburgh?-Yes; there are a good many of the same kind of veils, which having to lie over the season get crushed, and are taken back and re-dressed, and sent south again.

3127. But losses of that kind occur in all trades, I suppose?-I suppose so.

3128. You said you would charge for a job lot about half-price?- Less than half-price.

3129. Can you calculate how many job lots there would be out of say ten dozen of these black veils?-I have often taken one-half of them out for job lots.

3130. Do you say that, as a rule, there would be five dozen job lots in ten dozen black veils?-Very often there are that number.

3131. Would that be an average?-I think average is scarcely so high, but very near it.

3132. Then, of all the black veils No. 5 sent to your correspondent in Edinburgh, nearly one-half will be job lots?-Yes; of the one kind of veils-that is-the finest kind. There are very few of the cheaper veils jobbed in the same way,

3133. Why are there so many of them in these fine veils?-The worsted is so fine, that they get torn, and the slightest mistake injures them.

3134. Will you show me an entry of some veils of the medium quality?-Here [showing] is an entry of No. 7 veils at 24s.: these are Shetland wool.

3135. I would rather take a case where English wool was used?-I don't think there is any case of that kind there. No. 2 is the only one very near it of English wool.

3136. Here [showing] is an entry of four dozen black veils No. 2, 21s.: what would the cost of wool be there?-About 10s. 6d, per pound.

3137. What quantity of wool would be required for a dozen?-I think 1 oz. would make three veils.,

3138. Then 4 oz. would make a dozen; that is 2s. 71/2d. as the cost of wool for a dozen?-Yes.

3139. What would be the cost of knitting a dozen?-12s. in goods.

3140. And of dressing?-1s. 6d.

3141. Have you to dye these?-No; we don't dye them.

3142. Is there the same risk of loss from their being spoiled as in the other case?-Not quite the same; but there are a certain number of job lots there too.

3143. What proportion of job lots may there be in that sort of veil?-Generally from one-eighth to one-fourth of the whole.

3144. Do these sell at half-price, or more than half-price?- Generally about half-price-sometimes a shade less and sometimes a shade more, according to the state of the market.

3145. Then the price you charge for them, 21s. is calculated to cover the loss upon job lots?-Yes.

3146. There is thus a difference of nearly 5s. between the cost price and the selling price of these No. 2 veils: is it not the fact that that difference is allowed for profit?-It is the fact that it is not allowed for a profit: the profit is not so much.

[Page 70]

3147. But it is calculated so as to allow you a certain amount of profit?-Yes; a certain amount.

3148. That is not the actual profit receive; but the price is so calculated as to cover the loss upon job lots and to allow you a certain amount of profit as well?-Yes.

3149. In fact, so as to make it safe that you may get some profits- Yes.

3150. Is that not so with the prices, of all your hosiery goods?- With the lace goods that we get knitted it is the case. We only put out lace goods to be knitted; we buy all the other goods over the counter.

3151. What do you mean by lace goods?-Lace shawls and veils, principally, and neckties.

3152. Do you call all the open lace goods Shetland goods, whether they are made of English or Shetland wool?-Yes.

3153. This [showing] is an invoice of shawls?-Yes.

3154. Is there any material difference, with respect to the shawls, from the calculations with regard to the cost of production and profit which we have just made with respect to the veils?-I think it is very similar.

3155. It comes to something like the same thing?-Yes; but the difference is not quite so marked.

3156. You think there is not so much difference in the cost to you, in the case of shawls, as in the case of veils?-No; because we don't get job shawls, and we don't require to guard against that.

3157. Are there no job shawls at all?-It is extremely seldom that there are any.

3158. Therefore, in that case, you require to make the margin less?-Yes.

3159. What do you think would be the percentage of profit upon the lots of veils and shawls mentioned in this account [showing]?-I really could not say. I am quite sure that no person in the trade could tell that.

3160. You have never made an exact calculation of it?-Never.

3161. Can you give me an approximation to it? Will it be 10 per cent.?-Yes; it will be more.

3162. Will it be under 15?-I think it will be.

3163. That is not taking into consideration the fact that they are paid for in goods?-There is nothing like 15 per cent. in that view. I am taking the whole profit in every way connected with them.

3164. But the question I am asking is, whether, calculating the cost of production in money as I have done just now, and calculating the selling price in money, the profit realized upon these two invoices you have handed to me will amount to 10 or 15 per cent.?-I don't exactly understand the question.

3165. We have been calculating the cost of the article to you?- Yes; and the real cost to us, I would say the profit will be 15 per cent.

3166. Then, in addition to that, you sell goods to the parties who bring in the articles?-Not in addition to that.

3167. You don't mean to say that you give your goods in return for these articles at cost price?-No, we don't.

3168. You have a profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we don't have a separate profit of 15 per cent. on the hosiery.

3169. But the purpose of the calculations we have been going into just now is to show what the hosiery costs?-Yes; what is the cost to Mr. Linklater.

3170. How do you get at the actual cost?-I cannot get at it exactly. I really don't know what it is.

3171. But when you say you pay a woman 10s. for knitting, that is marked down in your book as the price paid to her for knitting, just in the same way as if it had been paid in money?-Yes; but I say that we don't have 15 per cent. of profit on these goods over and above the profit we have on the goods given to the knitter.

3172. But, setting aside in the meantime the fact that the women are paid in goods, and supposing that the 10s. entered in your book is paid to the knitter in cash, do you mean to say that your profit is not 10 or 15 per cent.?-If it was cash, I should say it was 10 or 15 per cent.,-on some things a little more, and on some things a little less.

3173. I am speaking of the hosiery exclusively at present; but in point of fact the 10s. that is entered in your book as the cost of knitting is invariably, or almost invariably, settled for by means of goods on the other side of the account?-Yes.

3174. Are these goods charged to the knitter at wholesale prices or at retail prices?-At retail prices.

3175. Then that retail price implies that there is a profit on the goods?-That is what I am saying; but I say that we don't have 15 per cent. profit on the shawls, and a profit on the goods besides. I say that if we were paying the actual cash for the knitting of the shawls, then we might have 15 per cent. of profit.

3176. Do you mean that if you were paying actual cash for the knitting of the shawls, you would allow smaller profit on your goods?-I do.

3177. Then when you said with regard to the grey veils No. 1, at 18s., that the cost of knitting was 9s. a dozen, that payment to the knitter was higher than if you paid her in cash?-Yes.

3178. How much higher?-I think that one would not be safe in that case to pay more than 7s. or 7s. 6d., but some knitters make rather better things than others. Of course that is only my own opinion, and it is a thing I have never discussed either one way or another.

3179. You don't sell the Shetland worsted?-No.

3180. And you say an average price for it is 3d. a cut?-Yes; fine worsted may be from 3d. to 6d. a cut.

3181. The payment for that is generally in goods?-No, it is generally in cash, but we do sometimes get it for goods.

3182. You pay for it generally in cash: how do you account for that deviation from your general practice in Shetland?-We buy a good lot of it from merchants, and there are a good many old women who spin for a living, who we think require the cash. There is also such a demand for it that we are very glad to get it for cash, when the market is generally overstocked with everything else.

3183. Is there much Shetland wool sold in the southern markets?-No; we only send very small quantities of it south, for darning purposes.

3184. Are you aware whether there are merchants in Shetland, either in Lerwick or in the country, who send Shetland wool to the southern markets?-I know it has been sent from Yell.

3185. To a large extent?-No; it is not produced to a large extent. All that is produced in Shetland is very trifling.

3186. How did it happen to be sent from Yell?-Because a hosiery merchant in the south, who was selling their goods, got an order for worsted, and it was sent to him. I only know or that one instance.

3187. Was it sent by a proprietor?-I am not sure. It was Mr. Pole of Greenbank who sent it. I rather think his father is proprietor of Greenbank. Mr. Pole is now at Mossbank.

3188. What is the cost per pound of that worsted which sells at 3d. per cut?-Ordinary good 3d. worsted should be about 20s. a pound.

3189. Therefore it is not so dear as the English worsted?-It is much dearer.

3190. But there is some of the English worsted high as 32s. a pound?-Yes; but we have bought Shetland wool at 96s.

3191. Is that the finest quality of Shetland worsted?-Yes

3192. How much is that per cut?-I think about 7d. We have paid 7d. a cut for it, and on weighing it out I have found there were 12 cuts to the ounce. A cut is 100 threads, and a reel is about a yard long, or scarcely so much.

3193. There will be a greater number of cuts in a pound of fine worsted than in a pound of coarse worsted?-Yes.

3194. So that the proportion between the price per [Page 71] cut and the price per pound will differ very much?-Yes

3195. In your trade is there any quantity of goods sold for cash?- Yes.

3196. Are these marked and sold at the same price as those which you give in return for hosiery?-Yes; they are marked at the same price, and generally sold at the same price. On rare occasions there is a slight discount given for ready cash.

3197. How much is that discount?-I should say about 1s. per £1.

3198. Why is that not allowed when the settlement with hosiery?-Because we consider that in our transactions throughout the year we do not realize for our hosiery goods the full price which we pay.

3199. Have you two shops?-Yes.

3200. In one of these is hosiery kept and bought?-In one of them hosiery is kept; it is only in bought that shop now on very rare occasions. When Mr. Linklater or I happen to be there, we may buy something, and send the customer to the other shop to settle for it.

3201. Then the buying of hosiery is only conducted in the drapery shop?-The settlement for hosiery is only conducted in the hosiery shop.

3202. As a rule, a person selling a shawl or veil would go to the drapery shop?-Yes; and if Mr. Linklater or I was not there, she would go to the other shop to see if we were there.

3203. How do you settle with them if the purchase is made in the hosiery shop?-Generally one of us goes across with them, and on other occasions we give a line to the other shop such as this: '12s. R. L.,'-just the sum and the initials, and they go to the other shop, where it is settled at once.

3204. That is in cases of purchase, and has nothing to do with your knitters?-Nothing; unless in the case of the dresser, who has to bring all the dressed goods to the other shop. She sometimes gets a similar line; at other times she just tells the amount. Of course we put every confidence in her; and whether she has a line or not, she is settled with all the same.

3205. Do you exchange a large quantity of tea for hosiery and knitted work?-Not a large quantity; only a small quantity.

3206. Was it larger formerly than it is now?-I don't think it.

3207. The principal dealing is in goods?-Yes; in goods. Of course when people ask for tea, they are never refused it; but we don't sell much.

3208. Do you give them tea for goods at the ordinary market price that it is got at in the other grocery shops in town?-I have no idea what their tea costs them at other places. One merchant does not know what another merchant's goods are sold for.

3209. At what prices do you sell your teas?-Generally at 9d. and 10d. per quarter.

3210. Have you only two qualities?-Yes.

3211. Is it always sold in quarter pounds?-No; it is sometimes sold in half ounces.

3212. It is just put up as the people ask for it?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3213. Have you anything further to add to the evidence you previously gave?-I produce a list of names of parties who have sold goods to me, and they can be examined as to the prices they have got for their goods, that the range of prices may be ascertained. [Produces list.]

3214. I believe you also wish to explain something about the number of your knitters?-Yes; I made a mistake about that. I find from the index in our workers' book that the number is upwards of 300. I believe, however, that a great number of the knitters who appear in our books will also appear in the books of other merchants. They take work from two or perhaps three, at the same time; and consequently the aggregate number of knitters is not represented by the number that is found collectively in the books of the employers.

3215. You wish also to speak about Catherine Borthwick's evidence. She said she had never got any money from you; that she had asked you about two years ago for 1s,, when there was about 5s. 6d. due to her; that you refused it; and that she had never asked you for any since?-I have no evidence either to corroborate or to disprove that statement. I have not the least recollection of it; but I don't believe that it happened

3216. Is there anything in your books to contradict it?-Nothing.

3217. Then there is nothing for it but her statement, and your statement on the other side?-Quite so.

3218. In a large business like yours there might be a cash transaction at a time, apart from your books, which was settled for there and then?-Yes, it might have been; but it is a very unlikely thing that she asked me for 1s. in cash and I refused it unless I had very good grounds for doing so. She was generally behind in my books.

3219. But what she deponed to might have happened when she was behind?-Yes; I think it was very seldom, until I settled up with her, that she was not behind.

3220. In the work-book, I notice that dressing is occasionally charged against you on the credit side?-That is in the case where the knitter also dresses, and she is paid for that as well as for the knitting. We sometimes included both in the same payment, but not very often. Now we always separate them.

3221. When you were examined previously with regard to the cost of the wool in a shawl made of English wool, were you speaking of the price which you paid for the wool, or of the price at which you would retail it?-With regard to English or south-country wool, I may just repeat what I said before; that we really do very little in it, especially for fine shawls. I never charged 30s., or anything like it, for a shawl made of Pyrenees wool, because I did not consider that it was real Shetland goods.

3222. Then you deal in the real Shetland goods?-Yes, mostly. Occasionally, if I have to send a shawl of another kind to the south, I state that it is not handspun wool-that it is not the real Shetland wool.

3223. So that the great majority of your goods consists of Shetland wool; and in estimating the cost of production of a shawl, you estimated it at the price you paid for the wool?-Just so.

3224. And not at the retail price to a customer?-No; it was the cash price meant. There is one exception-that is, in the mohair falls-similar to those Mr. Anderson has been referring to, where, as rule, we pay a higher rate for knitting than that mentioned. These mohair falls are the only thing we deal in that is not Shetland.

3225. That is, the grey and black falls?-Yes. We never buy black wool; we always dye the falls after they are knitted.

3226. Are falls and veils the same thing?-We don't buy the mohair black; we think we get a more uniform shade of colour when we buy them in the piece.

3227. I understand you have two shops?-Yes.

3228. One of them is a shop where you only deal in drapery goods?-Yes; where we only deal for cash.

3229. There are no hosiery dealings carried on there?-No.

3230. Are the same prices charged for the drapery goods in the two shops?-There is a very small shade of difference on some things. Some things are exactly the same in both; on others there is a small difference. I should say that there is such a difference on calicoes. There are several things we sell in that shop, such as fancy goods and sewed articles, which are not kept in our hosiery shop at all; but winceys and stuff goods, such as camlets and satteens, and other things for dresses, are charged alike in both shops, so far as I remember.

[Page 72]

3231. Is there any difference made in the price of the tea?-We don't sell tea in the drapery shop. While on this subject I would call attention to one thing that was stated in Mr. Walker's evidence. He said that the merchants gave mostly flowers and ribands, and things of that description in exchange for the hosiery; while the fact is that flowers and ribands are just the kind of goods which I would avoid giving, if I could, because we do not realize a profit on them. In our cash shop we never have flowers or ribands, unless when we are obliged to have them for the accommodation of our customers; and we would rather want them. I was four years in the trade, so far as I recollect, before I had any flowers or ribands in stock at all, because I knew from former experience they were a thing which did not pay.

3232. What is the reason why these things do not pay?-They may pay some people in the south, who charge a higher rate for them; but we do not charge so high for them as in the south.

3233. How are you obliged to have them now?-Because the people will have them, and they have got into the habit of buying them at the ordinary rates. An ordinary retail profit put on any of these things won't pay us, because so many of the flowers are lost, crushed, or destroyed; and sometimes I have seen us have to throw a box of them from the pier. Another thing is that ribands go out of fashion. There are boxes of ribands standing in my shop, which I would sell for one-fourth of the cash I paid for them.

3234. Do you not keep these, goods because you find it necessary to have them in order to induce people to come to your shop with their hosiery goods?-By no means. They come without any inducement of that kind.

3235. But they want them when they are selling their hosiery?- We could do without them, for that part of it. There are many customers who come for them, as well as hosiery customers. When we want a particular article of hosiery, and have an order for it, we can arrange, and often do arrange, to buy it for cash; and the people may go and buy their goods where they like. That is frequently done when we have a standing order for an article; so that we do not keep these things as baits for the public at all.

3236. You buy a good deal of wool from the north isles?-Yes.

3237. I think you said you did not send any of it south?-No; I don't require to send it south.

3238. Are you aware of Shetland wool being bought and sent south in considerable quantities?-I was told by a south-country dealer that he had bought a considerable quantity of wool from Shetland; but that is all. I know about it. I have no personal knowledge of the thing being done.

3239. You don't understand that it is bought up by the proprietors or factors or middle-men?-I never heard anything about that, except from Mr. Walker's evidence; and it is a dream.

3240. You don't buy it yourself for any purpose of that kind?-No; there are none of the merchants who do that. There is one thing in my previous evidence which I wish to correct: I thought of it after I left here. In calculating the value of a 30s. shawl, I put down 14s. as the value of the knitting; but in that case I did not make the deduction I should have made for the percentage of the goods paid for it, which would increase the real profit to the dealer. As, however, in a great many instances, when we require a fine shawl of that kind, a good deal of it is paid in cash, I think that, taking it as a general thing, not more than 1s., 6d. would fall to be deducted for that from the figure I gave. In some cases the price is paid wholly in cash, especially for things of that kind. That sum of 1s. 6d. would therefore fall to be added to the profit if the article was paid in goods; but if paid in cash, then my statement was quite correct.

3241. Did you hear the evidence which has been given by Mr. Anderson with regard to the cost of making shawls and veils?-I did.

3242. It was mostly veils he spoke to, and the selling price of them: do you think his calculations that on subject were generally near the truth?-I believe they were perfectly correct, so far as my own experience goes, but I may say that my experience in that matter has been somewhat different from his, inasmuch, as for that class of wool, and knitting. I often pay a higher rate to good knitters. There is this; however, to be said in my case, that I do not have so many job lots, which compensates to a great extent for the difference; and another thing is that I do not charge such a high price for them as he stated, when sending them south. If I am selling to a private individual, I may but it is very seldom that I sell to private individuals.

3243. That may be accounted for in this way: that you sell more to wholesale customers, while I suppose Mr. Linklater's business in Edinburgh is really a retail business?-Yes; he has a very extensive establishment in Edinburgh.

3244. His own establishment there is a retail one; so that the prices Mr. Anderson was speaking of were probably retail prices?-I suppose so. I think if the one was balanced with the other, there would be found to be very little difference between Mr. Linklater's experience in the trade and my own. I wish it to be distinctly understood, that when I said we got no profit, on the goods except what we realized on the first purchase, I meant that we do not realize indeed we often don't realize so much-as the price we paid for them in goods. In particular cases, we may charge a shade over what the thing has actually cost us; but there are a great many articles for which we must charge less, and that much more than balances the other. If our customers in the south were private individuals or consumers, we could very easily pay the same rate in cash that we now pay in goods, but as we have to sell to retail dealers in a wholesale way, we cannot afford to do that, unless we were to rob the retail dealer of his profit altogether.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, examined.

3245. You are the daughter of Mr. Sinclair, who has just been examined, and one of the assistants in shop?-Yes.

3246. Are you sometimes concerned in the purchase of hosiery goods?-No; I never purchase hosiery.

3247. You only sell in the shop?-Yes.

3248. Is it the case that the lines which are given out in your father's shop are generally brought back by the same parties to whom they are issued? Do you know who the lines are given to?-No; we keep no note of their names.

3249. But do you happen to know them?-I know several cases in which the lines have been brought back by the same parties to whom they were given out; and there have been other cases where I know that they have been given by that party to another party, just the same as sending them an errand.

3250. Do you know of any cases in which they have been brought back by people with whom they have been exchanged for money or for goods which could not be got in your father's shop?-No; they would never mention such a thing to us.

3251. And no such case has come within your knowledge?-I have heard vague reports of such things being done but nothing that I could, state positively. I know that if they had come to the shop and asked money for their lines, they would have got 10d., in the shilling for them from my father.

3252. Have you ever been asked for that?-Very seldom. There was one girl who came in a few nights ago and offered me a veil. My father happened to be in the back shop, and I went to him with it, and he said he would give her 1s. 4d. for the veil. I came back to the girl, and she said, 'Would I give her 1s. 4d. in money?' I said, 'Certainly not,' because the veil season was over; and also I did think that money [Page 73] and goods were the same thing. I said I would give here 1s. 1d. in money, and she asked if I would give her 1s. 2d. I said, 'No;' I would only give her 1s. 1d. and she took that and went away.

3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they got in goods.

3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is.

3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes.

3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out.

3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the knitter?-Yes.

3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account.

3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes.

3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account simply, without any line?-Yes.

3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop, and read the items over to them when we settle.

3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes.

3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods may enter them.

3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper.

3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?- Yes, by the clerk.

3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and mark the goods in ourselves.

3267. Are these slips preserved?-No.

3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case where they were getting goods for another person. If they had been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in order to show the person who sent them what they had got.

3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed, because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is taking its place.

3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes.

3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it.

3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands, that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is deteriorating very much.

3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool.

3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted by people.

3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the people very often making complaints that they could not get wool at all from any source.

3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all.

3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes.

3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally wants ready money for it.

3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale prices, or the cash.

3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes.

3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in Dunrossness.

3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods made there.

3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating where the worsted was spun.

3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes.

3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No.

3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is got.

3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes.

3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings.

3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in goods.

3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I should say.

3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large shawls were paid for in that way.

3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.: what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods.

3293. In this account I see one hap-shawl entered at 14s., and then at 13s.: what does that mean?-It means that 14s., was paid for it, and it was sold for 13s. Perhaps it may have been slightly ill-coloured.

3294. In the wholesale trade list which has been given in, I see white, brown, and grey shawls, natural colours, charged 8s. 6d. to 18s.: do you know, from what you see in the shop, the prices at which these are generally bought over the counter?-They are just bought at the same prices at which they are invoiced, and which are put down there.

3295. When a shawl is brought to the shop and paid for in goods, is it ticketed for the south market?-Yes; the fine shawls are ticketed.

3296. Wrap or winter shawls, 8s. 6d.: would these be ticketed?- No.

3297. Why?-Because my father knows the prices so well; they are sold by measure.

3298. The prices at which they are charged do not depend so much on fancy?-No.

3299. Then the prices of these shawls are fixed afterwards?-Yes.

3300. How do you know that the prices which are charged for these shawls are the same as have been paid for them over the counter?-Because I have seen haps sold at the counter for 8s. 6d.; and afterwards, [Page 74] when they were ready for the market, they were charged at the same, or nearly the same, price.

3301. Don't you sometimes see them charged at a higher price?-I cannot say exactly, because I do not always notice what the prices are; but I know that I have sometimes seen the same prices charged. I have noticed that particularly in haps.

3302. There are grey and brown long shawls, 20s. to 24s. are these also haps?-Yes.

3303. Are they generally bought at from 20s. to 24s.?-Yes.

3304. And sold at the same prices?-Yes, I have noticed that.

3305. You have nothing to do with the pricing of them yourself?- Nothing at all. I merely see the tickets, and recognise the article. Perhaps there was something particular about it which led me to recognise it.

3306. How often has that happened?-I could not say.

3307. Has it happened a dozen times?-It has surely happened more than a dozen times. That is a very small number.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, examined.

3308. Are you a shopman to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

3309. You are not the bookkeeper?-No.

3310. Do you know the prices at which hosiery goods are bought across the counter?-Yes.

3311. Do you also know the prices at which these same goods are invoiced to the southern market?-Yes.

3312. Is the price at which they are bought and the price at which they are sold the same, or different, on the ordinary run of goods?-They are charged to the wholesale or the retail dealer in the south at the same price as we pay for them in goods at the counter.

3313. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes.

3314. The goods, I understand, are not all ticketed when bought?-Fine shawls are generally ticketed, but haps and other goods are judged of afterwards, when being looked out in order to be sent to the market in the south.

3315. In the case of fine shawls, is it within your own knowledge that the ticket put upon them at the time of the purchase bears generally the same price as has been paid for them in goods?- Yes. Mr Sinclair puts up these goods himself for the market, and the ticket is put on them at the time of the purchase, in order to bring to his remembrance, when he is putting them up for the market, the price he paid for them at the counter.

3316. In all these cases there is only one valuation of the shawl, and it is made to the person who brings it to you for sale?-Yes.

3317. The ticket is put on them, and the invoice price is the same as the price on the ticket?-Yes, the same.

3318. Do you make no allowance, in that case, for the loss upon the dressing or the dyeing of the shawl?-When a girl comes with an article that is ill-coloured, she may ask a certain price for it; but we state that we cannot give her that price, owing to it being ill-coloured, and that it requires to be dyed. In that case we deduct the price of the dyeing from the price which is paid to her.

3319. Is that deduction made before the price is put on the ticket?-We don't ticket it then. It has to be sent south to the dyer, and to come back and to be dressed here.

3320. In that case you must make an estimate, because you cannot identify the shawl afterwards?-No; we just leave it to our own judgment afterwards.

3321. Then it appears that you don't invoice the goods at exactly the same price that is paid in every case?-We don't invoice them at the same price if we are selling them to private individuals; but when we sell them to a retail dealer, we invoice them at the same price.

3322. But you have said that very often you require to send them to the dyer, in which case they are not ticketed at the time you purchase them?-No; but the retail dealer must pay for the dyeing.

3323. But the goods are not always ticketed at the time they are bought?-No; not always. I did not say they were.

3324. Are they ticketed, as a rule, when they are bought?-The finest of the lace goods or shawls are ticketed.

3325. And veils?-No, not veils; but the fine lace shawls are generally ticketed.

3326. How is the invoice price of the veils fixed, if they are not ticketed when they are bought?-We can easily judge of the quality of a veil by looking at it, and we can tell what we paid for it. Of course, in fixing the price, we always refer to what we paid for it, and we know that at a glance by the quality of the work and the worsted.

3327. You cannot tell what you paid for a particular lot of veils, because you cannot identify them?-No.

3328. But you know by the quality what they likely to have cost you?-Yes.

3329. Is the price at which veils are sold generally the same as that at which they are bought?-Yes. Veils which have been bought across the counter are charged at the same price that we consider we paid for them.

3330. Are many of the shawls dyed?-A good many. Some are dyed on account of being ill-coloured. Perhaps we don't discover, at the time when they are taken in over the counter, that they are ill-coloured; we only find that out afterwards, and then we have to dye them. Sometimes we dye shawls, not on account of them being ill-coloured, but because we require them of a particular colour.

3331. Is that done with fine shawls?-Both with fine and coarse.

3332. But not with haps?-Sometimes with haps too. We dye haps scarlet and black.

3333. Therefore there is a considerable quantity of the shawl goods which it is not possible to ticket at the time when they are bought, because they have afterwards to be dyed-Yes, a considerable quantity.

3334. And, in that case, the price is fixed afterwards, according to your own notions of the quality?-Yes.

3335. Who fixes the invoice price of shawls when they are sent out finally to the market?-Mr. Sinclair himself. He takes that department.

3336. Do you know whether, in doing so, he takes into account the market price in the south?-Although he makes up the articles, they pass through my hands in packing, and I see the tickets. They generally have a ticket on them, in order to guide the clerk in checking them and entering them into the book.

3337. But you don't know the principle on which Mr. Sinclair values these shawls when they are invoiced?-He just judges of them in the same manner as he did at first when taking them in over the counter.

3338. What proportion of the shawls may be revalued in that way?-Will it be one-third or one-half of them?-They are all re-valued in that way, unless those which are ticketed.

3339. But what proportion of them are not ticketed at first?-I could not say.

3340. Is it not the case that very few of them are ticketed at first?-There are only the finest lace shawls that are ticketed at first.

3341. Therefore the bulk of the shawls are not ticketed then, but valued afterwards?-Yes; they are valued in the same manner at that time as they were when taken in at the counter.

3342. Are you in a position to state whether or not that valuation which is made when they are sent out exceeds the valuation which is put upon them when they are purchased for the market?-I have reason to believe from Mr. Sinclair's long experience in the trade, that he will know to a fraction what he paid for the [Page 75] shawls; and I can swear that they are not charged by him at a higher price than the price which was paid for them in goods at the counter. Of course deductions are made afterwards by the wholesale dealer, if he thinks the article is inferior.

3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one else.

3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes.

3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the hosiery.

3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send a line in by another party as a messenger.

3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged.

3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something to that effect this very morning.

3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?- No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report.

3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell you that she had purchased it?-No. I don't remember an instance of that kind.

3351. You don't remember any particular case in which there had been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don't supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in which the party had got cash for the line.

3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party.

3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it. She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction.

3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can point to in particular.

3355. But do you swear that you don't know that lines have been so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged, but I could not point to any other case than the one I have mentioned.

3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all goods for it.

3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on them?-Yes.

3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to be given for it.

3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No.

3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She said she required it to buy meal with.

3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that woman on several lines, not on one line in particular.

3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in private.

3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a deduction from the profit on our goods.

3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our profit.

3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?- Yes.

3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the wholesale dealer the same price.

3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come back, then there would be a loss.

3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales for one profit.

3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular case except the one you have mentioned?-No.

3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.

3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any one.

3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.

3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.

3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not.

3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to believe that it is done.

3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the vague report so often-not once, but several times.

3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any great extent?-I could not say to what extent.

3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but only that it was common.

3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any women who have done it?-I do.

3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one who has said it to-day

3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.

3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?- Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in goods.

3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of paying their debt to another?-Yes.

3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need of it.

3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.

3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand, and that I just put it down as she said it.

3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them an extra piece of work.

3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of 'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.

3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His account would show that the amount which he received from us was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his account he would state that he had given out so much meal to them.

3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?- Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.

3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal account.

3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently.

3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?- Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got help from another quarter.

3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?- I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price, not at the cash price.

3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they had just a weekly allowance.

3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said, 'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands.

3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr. Smith?-Yes.

3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr. Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R. Sinclair & Co.

3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it.

3400. You don't know about it personally?-No.

3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to some extent.

3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in, and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well, she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of forty yards.

3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two profits on his hosiery.

3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely be embarking his capital a second time.

3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that cash again.

3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a profit which on your own statement, he does not have now. According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It might.

3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?- Yes.

3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants something different and in order to get which she might perhaps have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever she wanted,

3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two disadvantages.

3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would, if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as the cash system might be a means of producing better articles. The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes is now.

3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain seasons it is.

3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all, because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be a regular flow of goods into the market.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith, because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye them for nothing.

3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring more than they would have brought if they had been white; but that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined.

3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.

3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?- Yes.

3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No.

3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for a long time; I don't remember how long.

3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls.

3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid for them, according to what I sought.

3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave me a little money when I asked it.

3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above 6d. at a time, but I would get it.

3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was just as I had time to sit at it.

3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself entirely by my work.

3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else I had to do.

3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes.

3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No; except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the parochial board.

3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends.

3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of your knitting?-Yes.

3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money.

3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling merchants,

3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got much the same from him as I got from them.

3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little money, I would have got it.

3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine knitting.

3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes.

3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I think I am better paid by making these little haps.

3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two.

3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little.

3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting made when I had lodgers.

3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.; but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion.

3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two.

3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever as can be yet.

3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money from Mr. Linklater when I ask it.

3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and when I had nothing in his hands to get.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled.

3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to another person for cash.

3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes.

3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer. Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are taken from the customer.

[Page 78]

3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact, re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put upon the article; it may be the same price.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair & Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles, entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them according to our own judgment, without any reference to the entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of the value of which there could be any doubt.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined.

3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until lately?-Yes.

3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas Jamieson.

3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.

3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally.

3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes.

3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted, and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting.

3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the size of the shawl.

3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that way?-No.

3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it, because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it.

3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not fall in with the things I was wanting.

3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out of things I wanted.

3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were there.

3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes.

3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly.

3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's wages.

3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had required it. He would not have given it.

3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did.

3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes.

3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way.

3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?- Cotton and winceys.

3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much tea.

3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give it.

3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some time.

3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a servant.

3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at present.

3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes.

3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to, and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in money.

3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane.

3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any little thing, which she has got, we can get it.

3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson who buy hosiery?-Yes.

3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound.

3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing.

3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool.

3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes.

3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought the wool, and we spun it for ourselves.

3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes.

3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut.

3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison, or any of them.

3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No.

3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting.

3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes.

3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it; but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted.

3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply because you wanted the goods?-Yes

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON or NICHOLSON, examined.

3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it Lerwick.

3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes.

3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home; and I don't require to do it.

3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard so much said on both sides of the subject.

3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience goes.

3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing.

3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?- Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White, and been paid for them in money.

3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it.

3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't have any particular statement to make about one more than another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops.

3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the people complained about getting goods for their work. Their complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I thought they had great reason to complain.

3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much more in some cases than what they could have been got for in ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it.

3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s. from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it properly before.

3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to 10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will declare it was.

3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick when we were not dealing in the hosiery business.

3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in hosiery?-Yes.

3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience, because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery. I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4 yards-just the quantity required.

3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence, and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us. I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it, could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what made me think over it.

3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of those who paid me with 10s.

3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not get in to see him there, because there were so many people who came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here.

3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years ago.

3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would perhaps not take the goods at all.

3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without doing something for it in some other way, as has been already explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it, by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order to serve the purpose they required the money for.

3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick.

3518. Do not people in the country sometimes come in and stay with them for a night or two?-Yes but it could scarcely be called a lodging-house as that is understood in the south.

3519. But people do come from the country for a night or two, and perhaps bring their own provisions with them?-There is very little of that can be done in Lerwick at present, because there have been so [Page 80] many people warned out of their farms in the country.

3520. Have you known many cases, within your own knowledge, of girls being in straits in consequence of that system of dealing?-Yes, I have had to supply them many a time with things. I bought some little things from a girl within the last week or two at a reduced price, which she took from me because I could give her the money. I did not require the article. I only bought it from her as a charity, and I would not have mentioned it unless you had asked me.

3521. Have you ever known of girls falling into evil courses in consequence of the want of money?-Perhaps if they had the inclination, they would have fallen into them any way. I think, on the whole, that if they had money, they would be able to save a good deal out of the expense for dress which they sometimes wear. They would then have their money, to do what they chose with it. Perhaps they might apply some of it for a religious purpose, or put it into a missionary box; or if they did not think of doing that, they might have an opportunity to put it into the savings bank, which Lerwick knitters have never yet had the pleasure doing.

3522. Is there no savings bank here?-There is a post-office savings bank; but I don't think there are many of the knitters who can get the blessing of putting cash into it for a rainy day, either to pay the doctor or anything else.

3523. You seem to think that the effect of the system is to lead them to spend more of their earnings on dress than they would otherwise do?-When I was young myself and unmarried, and when I was getting dresses instead of getting money articles for my work, I would not have thought much of putting a very expensive dress on; but when I got money I did not like to spend so much upon dress, because I prized the money so much more. I only judge others as I would judge myself; but I know that when I was paid only in goods for my knitting, I would be more ready to take an expensive dress than if I were to get money.

3524. I asked you a question just now which you did not answer quite distinctly: whether you had known of girls who were knitters falling into evil courses?-I cannot say about that.

3525. Do you think girls are led to fall into a bad way of living from the system which prevails here, and from being led by it to indulge more in dress than they ought to do, or from being in straits from want of food?-I cannot answer that question. I don't see why they should do that in consequence of the system; but what I mean is, that if they could get money for their goods, that would perhaps prevent them from spending all their earnings in dress, and expensive articles of that kind, and they would have something for other purposes which are as necessary, or more so.

3526. You said the prices differed at certain shops in town: would you give me an instance of that besides what you have mentioned? Suppose, for instance, that cotton is charged at 6d. a yard, is not that the common price for cotton that is given for hosiery?-Yes.

3527. Do you know whether that could be got cheaper at any other shop?-That particular thing does not vary so much just now as it used to do; but with regard to the dress pieces, and things of that kind, I know there are some shops that have a higher price marked on the articles than the other shops have on an article of the same appearance and, I think, of the same value.

3528. You know that from examining them in the shops?-I know it by going from shop to shop and purchasing the articles with money for myself.

3529. What is your husband's business?-He is a cooper.

3530. Have you bought Shetland worsted yourself?-I have.

3531. From merchants or from people?-Generally from country people.

3532. Do you always pay money for it?-Yes.

3533. Have you bought it from merchants too?-Yes.

3534. Do you always pay them money for it?-I have seen Mr. Sinclair sometimes supply me with some of it on work, although it was a money article and I felt obliged to him for it, because I sometimes could not get it from the country as well as he could.

3535. That was given you to work into things for yourself?-Yes.

3536. But the price was the same, in both cases?-Yes; of the Shetland worsted.

3537. And when you got it from the shop in that way, it was as a favour that you got it?-Yes.

3538. What would be the value of the Shetland worsted in a shawl that was worth 20s.?-I generally deal with Mr. John White in shawls that are worth more than that. I do not send many to him now.

3539. Do you get a high price for them from him?-No; I can get as much for them in Lerwick.

3540. What price do you get for these shawls?-From 28s. to 30s.; and I can go in with the same shawl to any of the shops in Lerwick and get the same price, only in goods. I don't say that Mr. White will give us any more for our shawls than the merchants here will give us in goods.

3541. Only you think that, if you get 30s. in cash from Mr. White, you could possibly buy what you want cheaper than you would get it from the merchants here in exchange for your hosiery?-Yes, that is what I mean to say.

3542. With regard to a shawl worth 30s., how much would you pay for the Shetland worsted that it is made of?-Perhaps about 9s. or 9s. 6d., or perhaps 8s. 6d. if I could buy it economically.

3543. About what quantity of worsted would there be in it?- About thirty-three cuts to that size of shawl.

3544. Would it be worth more than 8d. a cut?-No. Some people might charge more, but I generally get it for that.

3545. Then thirty-three cuts at 3d. a cut would be 8s. 3d. for the worsted?-Yes.

3546. How long would it take you to knit such a shawl?-It would take me a long time just now.

3547. Perhaps it is hardly possible to calculate how long it would take?-No.

3548. The worsted is the only expense you would have in making such a shawl?-Yes; I could dress it for myself.

3549. But if you did not, what would be the charge for dressing?- 6d.

3550. So that the payment for your labour on a shawl of that kind would be about 21s.?-Yes; but of course, if I was getting it knitted, I might get it done for about 12s. A knitter would make it for me for that sum if I were giving her the worsted.

3551. Have you ever dealt in that way giving out worsted to knitters, and getting shawls knitted for yourself?-Only on a very small scale. I knitted more to others when I was young.

3552. But you have given out some knitting to others?-Yes, perhaps part of a shawl; so that I calculate the whole cost would be about that.

3553. Therefore, if you were giving out a shawl to knit, it would cost you 8s. 9d. for the material and the dressing, and you would pay 12s. for the knitting-in all, 20s. 9d.; and you could sell it to Mr. White in cash for 9s. 3d. of profit?-I would not call it all profit, because sometimes I have a good deal to do before I can get the worsted wrought as good as I would like to put it into Mr. White's shawls, and then I have to lie out of my money until I can get a party to take it in. Besides, if I were putting it out to knitter, I would have to stand the risk of getting it done properly to my mind. There might be some faults in the shawl; and if there was anything of that kind, there must be an allowance made for that. I am not saying that I ever did that, I am only speaking of how it could be done.

3554. You are speaking of what you could do, and of what you know can be done, from your experience in giving out part of your own work?-Yes.

3555. Do you know anything about the stocking [Page 81] business-the cheaper and coarser kind of Shetland goods?-No; I have not much acquaintance with that. I may say, that while I think in Lerwick it would be far better for the people if they could get money for their work, yet the country people are not requiring the money quite so much, as they need the goods at any rate; but if, as a rule, a money system were once established, and the people were all to get money for the work, I think those who purchase the work would find the profit of it as well as those who have to sell it.

3556. Have you ever considered why this system of paying in goods is kept up?-Yes.

3557. What do you suppose to be the reason for it?-If I had had it in my power, I would perhaps have done the very same as the merchants have done, because they have got the good of it.

3558. How have they got the good of it?-Because I think they must have had a profit on it.

3559. On the hosiery?-Not so much on the hosiery as on the goods. Reason teaches me that there must be a profit somewhere, or else it would not have been carried on to such an extent.

3560. I suppose the present system of payment induces the people who sell hosiery to the merchants, to buy their goods from them rather than from another?-Certainly it does; because, when I go in with a shawl to a merchant, I consider that I have to take the whole value of that shawl out in goods.

3561. It makes the merchants sure of their customers?-Yes.

3562. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I may mention, that I think the system of paying half in money and half in goods would not do. One party was asked whether she would be pleased to take one half in money, and the rest of the payment in goods. That may be a good enough plan if it were established and carried on throughout the year; but I remember that at one time one-half the value of a shawl was given in groceries, and that plan died away. The merchants kept groceries at that time, for the sake of getting hosiery with which to supply their orders. The merchants who did so were Mr. Harrison and Mr. Laurenson. As the season of the year came round when they did not have orders for their shawls, then, if they bought shawls, they had to lay them past until the market opened again; and there were very few groceries given out, because I understood they had more profit on their drapery goods. By and by the system of giving groceries died out altogether.

3563. Was that because they had a less profit on them than on the drapery?-I understood so. I remember Mrs. Harrison, the party with whom Mr. Mackenzie lodged, telling me that as soon as the country people began to knit, we, the town's people, would suffer very much. I could not understand very well what she meant at that time, but afterwards, when the country people supplied the merchants with the goods which they required, then they saw that these people from the country only required drapery, and they could get their orders supplied from the country. That led the merchants to pay for the hosiery only in drapery goods, and the Lerwick people had to comply with the same rule. It was when the country people came in to do the knitting that the supply of groceries died away, because the merchants could get their orders so much cheaper from the country people. They did not require the groceries like the town's people, because knitting was not the only thing which they had for their living.

3564. Do you think the ready-money system would be better for the merchants than the present?-It would be better for those who have very little profit on the goods they sell, but it would not be so good for those merchants who take a great deal of profit.

3565. Are there any of the merchants who take very little profit on their goods?-There are some who have less than others.

3566. And you think they would profit by a cash system?-I think, on the whole, they would.

3567. They would have no bad debts?-No; and they would not issue so many lines or have so many clerks; and there are a great many ways in which I think it would be better for them.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, THOMAS NICHOLSON, examined.

3568. You are a draper and dealer in hosiery in Lerwick?-Yes, principally a draper. I don't do much in hosiery.

3569. You were formerly in the service of Robert Sinclair & Co.?-Yes.

3570. You have heard some of the evidence that has been given here?-Yes, some of it. I think Mrs. Nicholson and Mr. Johnstone are the only persons whose evidence I have heard throughout.

3571. Do you concur generally with what Mr. Johnstone said about the system of business here?-Yes. I also heard a good part of Mr. Laurenson's evidence, and I thought it gave a fair statement of the matter.

3572. Is there anything you wish to add with regard to the system of paying in goods?-I have nothing to add to what I believe has already been stated.

3573. Do you give lines?-Only a very few, when they are asked.

3574. Do you give them to people from whom you buy hosiery, or to those who knit for you?-Only to those from whom I buy hosiery. I don't give out any hosiery to knit at all.

3575. Is it understood in your trade, as well as in that of the other gentlemen who have been examined, that all purchases of hosiery are to be settled for in goods?-Yes, that is generally understood. It has always been the habit, and we have never got it altered yet.

3576. Do you think it would be expedient to have a change in that respect?-I believe it would, if it could only be got to work.

3577. What is the difficulty in the way of having another system?-We could not give so much in cash for the goods we buy.

3578. Do you think the people generally would not take cash?- Yes, I believe they would want goods. So far as I am concerned, they always take goods from me, and I have never heard them ask for cash. I deal both with country people and with people from Lerwick, and none of them ever asked me for it.

3579. Is it long since you left Mr. Sinclair's employment?-About two and a half years ago.

3580. There has been no important change made in the system of carrying on business either in your shop or in his during that time?-No.

3581. Do you do much in the coarser kinds of hosiery?-A little not a great deal. The stockings are generally done by the country people, and the finer work by the town's people.

3582. You buy the stockings from the country people?-Yes, I just exchange the one article for the other.

3583. You fix a nominal price at which you are to buy the stockings?-Yes; the price. I expect to get for them, as near as I can fix it.

3584. You don't expect to make a profit on them?-No; I would often be very thankful to get what I have paid for them.

3585. Then your profit is on the goods which you give in exchange?-Yes.

3586. Do you think you take a higher profit on your goods in consequence of accepting payment for them in hosiery rather than in cash?-No; the goods are all marked in plain figures. When I get cash I generally give off 21/2 or 33/4 cent.

3587. But don't you take a higher profit from all your customers because so much of your goods are paid for in hosiery?-No; if I did so, I would run the risk of losing my business; and in fact I would rather give up the hosiery altogether, because I don't think it [Page 82] pays very well, so much of it gets damaged, and the moths get into it.

3588. How long were you in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-For thirteen years.

3589. Were you acquainted both with the prices paid for hosiery goods and the prices obtained for them in the south?-Yes.

3590. Was more asked for them from the merchants in the south than was paid for them to the knitters in Lerwick?-No; we were always very thankful to get what we had given in goods for them.

3591. But if a cash price was paid for an article, was a higher price put upon it when it was sold south?-Yes; if we paid cash, we required a little more than we had paid. We could not have carried on the business without having a little profit on it.

3592. You do not give out any knitting at all?-Scarcely any. I think I have only two girls knitting for me at present.

3593. Do they get any part of their payment in cash?-Yes, whenever they ask it.

3594. But is it not the understanding that they shall be paid in goods?-Yes; it is generally understood that they shall get anything they want.

3595. How much are they in use to ask for in cash?-Probably a shilling now and then.

3596. Do they live by their knitting, or have they other means of support?-There is one party that does something for me who lives exclusively, or almost exclusively, by knitting; but almost all the girls have something else to do besides that.

3597. What is the name of the girl who lives almost exclusively by knitting?-I think one of them is Catherine Borthwick.

3598. Tea is one of the most common articles you give in exchange for the knitting?-Yes.

3599. Have you ever known of the goods you gave being exchanged for necessaries after you gave them?-No.

3600. Or of your lines being exchanged for necessaries or for cash?-I never knew of a case where that was done.

3601. Have you heard of such a thing being done?-I have heard of it; but I never knew of any of my lines, or any of the goods bought, from me, being exchanged.

3602. Are your lines generally brought back by the same parties to whom they were given out?-I think so; but I am not quite sure, because we just put on them 'Credit the bearer' so much.

3603. Have you a register of your lines?-Yes; I enter the number of the lines in a book.

3604. Was that a system which you adopted from Mr. Sinclair?-It was partly a system of my own. When I commenced on my own account, I adopted the system of keeping a check, the same as a bank chequebook.

3605. How many of these lines do you suppose you issue?-I don't do a great deal in that way. It is only for the accommodation of the parties that I give any at all. I would be quite prepared to settle with them at once if they liked.

3606. I suppose these lines are generally given for the balance upon a shawl, or anything that you buy?-Yes, for any little thing they are selling.

3607. Part of the price is taken in goods, and they take the balance in a line if they don't want the whole of it?-Yes; or perhaps a line may be taken for the whole of it, and they come and get tea and other articles as they want them.

3608. Is it generally long before they come back with these lines?-Some of them may be returned perhaps in a few days, and some of them in a few months. A country girl may keep a line beside her for perhaps a month or twelve months. I have known them keep them for three years, when I was in Mr. Sinclair's employment.

3609. Then the system of lines existed when you were with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.

3610. But he had not a register of them at that time?-Not for all the lines: he had a check for them, but they were not all registered then.

3611. Are you aware of the fact that the knitters in Shetland are anxious to sell their goods to others than merchants, in order to get ready money for them?-I believe some of them are; but I never met with many who were anxious to sell their goods for cash.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.

3612. Do you wish to add anything to your previous evidence?-I wish merely to say, that I have known cases where people have gone out with hosiery and sold it for money, and then come into our shop and bought what goods they required.

3613. Was that hosiery which had been offered to you before and was refused?-Yes.

3614. You had refused to buy it at the price they wanted?-Yes; at any price. I remember one case of that kind with regard to some half-stockings.

3615. When you refused to take them, the woman went and sold them elsewhere, and then came back to you with the money?- Yes.

3616. Was that long ago?-Yes, a good while ago. Of course there may have been other cases of that kind which I don't know about, but in that particular case the woman told me she had done it, I don't remember her name.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3617. Do you wish to add anything?-I should like to state something which struck me just now about a case where I saw lines given for money. It occurred in my own shop, and I believe it occurs oftener than we think; but there was one time when I detected it. A customer came into my shop and made some purchases, and at the same time another customer came in who I knew had got lines from the shop. The first person who was making the purchase was carrying through a cash transaction with me, and I expected to have been paid in money for it; but the other customer who had the lines took the other person aside and handed over the lines to her, and I was paid with them. I did not object to take the lines for their value, because the goods were charged at a fixed value for cash or line, but it certainly deprived me of the cash at that time.

3618. And it deprived you also of the profit which you would have had upon the goods that ought to have been given for the line?- Yes. I merely mention that as an instance in which cash was given for lines.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 83]

Lerwick: Monday, January 8, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM IRVINE, examined

3619. You are a partner of the firm of Hay & Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am.

3620. You have been so for many years?-Yes.

3621. I presume you take a principal part in the management of the affairs of that firm?-I do.

3622. In consequence of hearing that this inquiry had been appointed to take place, you have prepared a written statement with regard to the system pursued in the fish-curing business in Shetland, which you now hand in?-Yes.

3623. It is a correct statement?-It is quite correct, to the best of my knowledge.

[The following statement was put in by the witness:-]

I have had many years' experience of Shetland business generally, and especially of the fish-curing trade. Most of the time I have been connected with my present partners, and we have curing stations and establishments at several parts of the islands. We also manage four estates in the country-two as factors for the proprietors, and two as lessees. For the first we only account for the rents collected, but for the other two we pay fixed tack-duties.

The tenants on one of the estates for which we act as factors are altogether free to fish where they choose, and to dispose of their farm produce as they think proper, and their rents are received in cash every year at Martinmas. The tenants on the other, which I believe is next the largest in Shetland, are also free (with the exception of the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries); and we seldom see them unless when they come to town to pay their rents. Some fish to one curer, and some to another, as they find convenient; and they are quite at liberty to dispose of all their produce, such as cattle, ponies, hosiery, and the like, where they can obtain the best prices. We are not liable to the proprietor for bad debts on this estate either, but the rents are generally well paid, and very few of the tenants are in arrears.

In Whalsay there is only one curing station, and we pay the proprietor a yearly rent for the stores, booths, kelp-shores, and other privileges; and receive fish, oil, and kelp from the tenants, for which we settle at the current prices of the country. We have a factor there, with assistants, who manages for us, and supplies fishing materials and other necessaries to the men and their families during the year; and I usually go there myself soon after Martinmas, to square up accounts, pay the balance due the fishermen, and collect rents from the tenants. We also pay large sums of money at all our other country stations. In 1870, when north settling, I paid the men at Whalsay, after deducting their advances, £1222; and I find from a state prepared by the factor, that of fish, oil, and herrings received there that year, amounting to £2529, 15s. 1d., we paid the men £1584, 12s. 9d. in cash. We have not yet made up a similar account for 1871; but when settling there lately, after retaining their advances, I paid them no less than £1374. There are very few debts in the books there, and the people are considered to be in good circumstances.

Of this estate I can speak with confidence, as the management is more immediately in my department. There are 430 tenants on the lands-nearly all fishermen and sailors. When we strike out of the arrear list those tenants who have not had the opportunity of paying their rents for last year,-two who are old and infirm, and another who retains his balance for alleged improvements,-the amount due for the three years it has been in our hands is only £57, 13s. 1d. None of the tenants have been warned or sold out.

Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland. Many of them have sailed in all quarters of the world. Newspapers are now circulated all over the islands; and the Aberdeen, Leith, and Clyde Shipping Companies' powerful steamers bring mails with great regularity twice a week in summer, and once a week in winter; and in consequence of the frequent communication, all sorts of farm produce have largely increased in price. I have seen eggs selling in the islands at 11/2d. for sixteen,-now the price is 10d. per dozen; butter 6d., now 1s. and 1s. 2d. per pound; fat cattle £3 each, now £6 to £7; ponies 40s., now £6 to £10.

In our dealings with fishermen, they are charged the same prices for goods that we sell at for ready money to the public. We employ a number of carpenters and other tradesmen here, all of whom receive their wages in cash every Saturday night.

The Burra Islands are one of the properties which we hold in tack. We have two curing stations in the islands for convenience of the fishermen, and factors on the spot to receive the fish as they are landed from the boats. The fishings are prosecuted on the coasts in small boats in spring and summer, but the best of the men are employed out of the islands, and the fishings are now very unimportant. These men who fish out of the islands are employed in smacks belonging to Hay & Co., and various other owners, and prosecute the fishing on the coasts of Faroe and elsewhere, from the end of March to the middle of August. Those who fish to us get the same as those who are employed by others. The tenants of these islands sell their cattle, ponies, hosiery, eggs, and all other produce (except the few fish caught on the coast), as they like, without let or hindrance. We have no shop in the islands, and the men employed by us get their supplies from our stores here and at Scalloway. Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad fishings, when we had to give them large quantities of meal for their support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the islands were indebted the best part of £1000. We made an attempt at that time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their parents, and I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it had a contrary effect to what we intended, and, so far as I remember, the money was given back. I do not mention that the men are confined to our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose, and all our fishermen over islands can do the same, and at settlement receive their season's earnings wholly in cash. I believe this is the general practice; and were it otherwise, there is the small-debt court, the sheriff court, and several lawyers here to help them to their rights.

On the other estate referred to of which we are lessees, the tenants who remain at home are nearly all employed in the ling fishing. Some go south sailing, and pay their rents in cash, and we never exercise any control over them; but as we pay the current price to the tenants who remain at home, we insist on getting their fish as a security for their rents, otherwise the improvident might squander their earnings, and in some bad years be unable to pay. We never interfere with any of the tenants' produce except fish, on this estate more than the others. They are left to dispose of it where they like.

We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys [Page 84] from all quarters during the summer months, but after they settle, we have no transactions with them till another year comes round, when they return to our employment if they think they have been well served.

As already mentioned, we are engaged in the deep-sea cod fishing, and, like others, send vessels to fish at Faroe, Rockall, and Iceland. The crews are engaged on shares, and the fish are salted on board, and afterwards landed at the curing stations in a wet state. When ready for market, they are sold at the best price that can be obtained, and, after deducting expenses and other charges according to agreement, the proceeds are divided equally- one-half to the owners, and the other to the crew. Fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured on monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. The fishing season being short, the utmost activity is necessary; and when the weather is favourable, the men are often obliged to work day and night.

Shetland fishermen are not altogether dependent for their livelihood on the produce of the fishings. In most cases they have farms that can keep their families six to eight months, and with good crops many of them have no occasion to buy meal the year round. They cannot afford to use fresh beef, but, as a rule, most families can kill a pig; and on the whole, in ordinary seasons, I believe they have a much greater abundance of the necessaries of life than a great many people of their class in the kingdom. They are, without doubt, more independent and less under control than mechanics and others (who are obliged to work under a master a stated number of hours every day), and consequently are more happy and contented. We have no international societies in Shetland. Some of the dwelling-houses are not what they should be, but a great improvement has taken place in this respect since the timber-duty was repealed; and, for my own part, I would ten times rather live a year in a Shetland cottage, surrounded by pure air, than week in one of the slums of London or Glasgow.

Preparations for the ling fishing commence early in spring. The men form themselves into crews, and appoint the most experienced man as skipper. If they have no boat of their own, one must be hired, or a new one built; but the lines in most cases belong to themselves, and they always find curers ready to supply them with what they want, on condition that they receive their fish.

No curer would be safe to make these advances, without the men engaging to deliver their fish-a new boat alone costing about £20 without lines, The price of the summer fish is seldom fixed until the end of the season, when the fish are sold for the south-country markets.

Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and in the end come to grief. I have known crews to be engaged at fixed prices before the commencement of the fishing but as markets improved towards the end of the season, we were obliged to throw the agreement aside and pay the same as others, in order not to lose the men's services the following year. When the fishing season is over and the fish prepared for market, south-country dealers contract for it at prices free on board; and with them again there is competition, so that curers seldom fail to get the full value of the article.

People in the south, who have to pay perhaps 4s. to 7s. 6d. for a fresh cod or ling, are surprised to hear that the poor Shetland fishermen only get 6d. to 9d.; and we have had a great deal of clever writing on this subject lately, without much common sense. The shipping price of ling in the past season has been £23,-rather higher than usual,-and fishermen have been paid 8s. per cwt. wet, or about 9d. per fish. Although it has been rather a good year for curers, the following statement will show that fortunes are not rapidly accumulated in the trade:-

21/4 cwt. wet fish, cured ready for market, weigh only 1 cwt.-21/4 cwt. @ 8s. £0 18 0 Add cost of salt, hire of vats, tubs, tarpaulins, and other curing materials; also wages to men and boys splitting, washing, and drying; and expense of flitting from beaches-weighing and storing usually reckoned. . . 0 3 0 £1 1 0

21s. per cwt., or £21 per ton, leaving 40s. to the curer, out of which he has to pay store rent, weighing, shipping, skippers' fees, gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss by small and damaged fish, and of interest-the sales being made at three months in October, and the men settled with in November; and further, when the risk of sales is also taken into account, the sum left to remunerate the curer for his season's work is not very large.

One great drawback on a Shetland business is fishermen's bad debts, and our chief study is to limit the supplies when we know the men to be improvident; but it is quite impossible to keep men clear when the fishing proves unsuccessful. There is no difficulty, however, when dealing with careful men.

At various stations round the islands near the fishing grounds, where there are natural beaches, the men have small huts to live in during the fishing season, and the crews assemble there about the middle of May to commence operations. The merchants or fish-curers have the necessary curing materials on the spot, and factors, splitters, and beach boys attending to receive and cure the fish; and, while the fishing is carried on, the men go to their respective homes every Saturday, taking with them small and unmerchantable fish for the use of their families-returning to the stations, with provisions for the week, every Monday. They generally make two or three trips during the week, according to the state of the weather, and weigh and deliver over the catch when they land. Their families get supplies from the factor's shop as required; but the men have opportunities weekly of seeing their accounts and can limit these supplies if they choose.

The Whalsay fishermen deliver their fish in summer, and live at small holms to seaward of the main island near the fishing ground, and a large boat is employed to remove their fish to the beach at Simbister to be dried. The men are thus enabled to make more voyages to the haaf than by landing each time at the curing-beach.

As settling time approaches, our managers in the country prepare by sending for the men, and reading over to them individually their private accounts, comparing and making up pass-books, where any are kept, and giving copies of the accounts when desired; and when we come to settle, each man knows exactly the amount of his season's expenditure.

If a ready-money system were adopted, and payments made in cash for each landing, I believe it would scarcely be practicable to carry it out. Large sums of money would require to be kept at these stations,-men with some knowledge of figures and accounts to be always present,-and half the fishermen's time would be taken up with the settlements. The money would then be carried home to their families, and in many cases at the end of the season there would be little left to pay rent and provide necessaries for the winter months, when there are no fishings, and no work except at their own farms. Such a mode of dealing would otherwise injure the men, as curers with small means would be driven out of the trade, and in some measure competition prevented.

From twenty-five to thirty years ago I had several opportunities of seeing how the fishings were conducted Barra and South Uist. At that time the fishermen were all living in wretched hovels along the sea-coast, and the islands let for grazing cattle and in sheep farms. Very few of them were able to keep a cow, and they knew nothing of the luxuries of life, and could scarcely command a bare existence. Their chief living in winter [Page 85] and spring was potatoes not fit for pigs, and shell-fish, with any small fish they could catch in the bays. There were plenty of fish on the coast, but no middle-men with capital to encourage the men to work. In summer they prosecuted the fishing a little distance outside of the islands, where their buoys could be seen from the shore. Their boats were clumsy and unmanageable-some with sails and some without; and the lines were made by themselves out of hemp obtained on credit, and only lasted one year. They were set on the fishing ground at the commencement of the season, and seldom taken up to dry. Now, however, I understand large capital is embarked in the fishing trade in that quarter, and of late years it has been very prosperous, and the circumstances of the natives greatly improved.

In 1785 a Commissioner was sent by Government to inquire into the state of the fisheries in the Hebrides, and in his report to a committee of the House of Commons, on being asked 'whether he thought it would be benefit to the lower classes of people if any of the tacksmen or others were debarred by law from entering into a contract with these people for obtaining the pre-emption of their fish, etc., as specified in his report,' he answered, 'That, so far from thinking it would be a benefit to the people, he should think it would prove a material injury to them; for they have no other possible way of being supplied with the necessaries they want from distant markets but by the intervention of those persons who keep stores in the manner described in the report; neither have they in general any means of finding money to purchase boats and other necessary apparatus for fishing; and that, unless they were furnished by these storekeepers upon credit, very few of them could engage in the fisheries at all; and, in the present situation of that country, as they have no other possible way of paying the debts they thus contract but by the fish they catch, no person would furnish these upon credit unless they had the pre-emption of them: that it has been already stated in the report, that this kind of trade, though apparently very oppressive to the poor in all cases, affords but very little profit to the merchants; and that he knew several instances where the people who keep these stores, by acting in a disinterested manner, have contributed very essentially to promote the welfare of the country.'

Since that date the Shetland fisheries also have been largely extended by the introduction of capital and the opening of stores among the different islands, where the men can always obtain fishing materials and supplies for their families; but to the present day the answer still holds good: curers must have the pre-emption of the fish, as a security for payment.

In the evidence before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh lately, witnesses were examined who had little knowledge of Shetland business, and many of the statements were not only contrary to fact, but simply absurd. For instance, can any man of common sense imagine that a merchant would come to grief in consequence of not having enough of bad debts, and that if he could carry on until he had £2000 of bad debts, he would do a flourishing trade, 'because they keep it going in a circle, and it never gets worse?' That was one of the extraordinary statements made to the Commission. Is it not clear that if a dealer with small means emptied his shop of goods to people who could not pay for them, then, as soon as the bills he had granted for these goods fell due, he might shut it up?

As already mentioned, the Shetland fishing trade has been largely developed by increased capital of late years, but in all time past it has been conducted on the same principles, with few modifications, as at present, and will be so, I think, in all time coming. If the islands and their fishing banks could be removed to near London, where the fish might be sold fresh at high prices, the fishermen would be greatly benefited; but as this is impossible, we must all submit to the inevitable. It is true, Government may attempt to change the trade by Act of Parliament; but in that case they will either have to remove the entire fishing population to some other and better country, or keep them at home as paupers, by annual grants for food and clothing.

We are not engaged in the hosiery trade; but I know it to be the most troublesome business in the islands, being conducted chiefly by barter. I think it could not be carried on very well to any extent otherwise. We would be quite ready to embark in it and buy for cash, if we could make a commission; but I do not believe it would pay the expenses and servants' wages. Giving goods in exchange, hosiers can afford to allow a much higher price for the articles than we could for cash, and therefore very little of the trade would come our way if we took it up.

Besides the fishing trade, we have acted a long time as agents for ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits whale and seal fishing. These vessels call here to complete their crews in February and March; and when they return, the men are either landed at Lerwick, or some other point of the islands as they pass south. When they go out, the men are engaged at the shipping office, and receive a month's wages in advance, in presence of the shipping master, and the agents are reimbursed when they send the accounts to the owners. When the ships return and the men are landed, they disperse without a moment's delay (in most cases) to their several homes, and come back to Lerwick to settle for their wages and first payment of oil-money, individually, as it suits their own convenience; and in the same way, a second time, to receive the balance of their oil-money and sign the ship's release. This may be better understood from the following correspondence that took place the past year between Hay & Co. and one of the Peterhead shipowners, in respect to a notice said to be issued by the Board of Trade, headed 'Truck System in Lerwick:'-

'PETERHEAD, 16<th March> 1871. 'R. KIDD <to> HAY & CO. 'I enclose you letter I have received from H.M. Customs as regards the engaging and paying of the men engaged in the Greenland fishing ships. You will know how to act in regard to this. You have likely received direct orders, and I only enclose it to keep you in mind of it.' The document to which Mr. Kidd's letter refers is given below.*

* 'TRUCK SYSTEM IN LERWICK. 'It appears from the returns and documents received by the Registrar-General of Seamen, that the indulgence granted by the Board of Trade under their special regulations, M. 2884/1864, to the owners and masters of sealing and whaling vessels, in respect to seamen engaged at Orkney and Shetland, has in a great measure been abused, and the whole object of the regulations defeated by the agents employed by and representing the owners at Lerwick. The Board of Trade are informed that many of the Shetland seamen who should have been discharged before the Superintendent there, within a reasonable time after their being landed on the termination of a first or second voyage, remain undischarged and unpaid even into the currency of the succeeding year, and that some of the releases for 1870 still remain incomplete.

'It should be borne in mind that the exceptional regulations referred to were issued by the Board of Trade, with a view to the convenience of the owners and masters of this class of vessels, and the protection of the Shetland seamen; but as the latter intention seems to have been purposely frustrated, the Board of Trade direct you to inform the owners and masters of those vessels whose crews are engaged before you during the ensuing season, that unless they cause their agents to comply with the spirit as well as the letter of these regulations, and discharge the men within one month of their being landed, the Board will be necessitated either to render the regulations more stringent, or withdraw them altogether. If the latter alternative were adopted, the discharge of the Orkney and Shetland whaling crews would have to take place under the more rigid terms prescribed by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, which of all other vessels at ports in the United Kingdom.'

'CUSTOM HOUSE, PETERHEAD, '10<th March> 1871

'SIR,-The foregoing is a copy of directions just received from the Board of Trade, dated 7th March, regarding the faulty way in which seamen are discharged from Peterhead whaling vessels at Lerwick; and I now beg to call your attention thereto, requesting that you would instruct your agent at Lerwick to attend to the previous instructions issued, which were circulated among the masters and agents when they were issued. 'W.R. BALFOUR. 'Mr. R. KIDD, Merchant.'

[Page 86]

'LERWICK, 27<th March> 1871. 'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD.

'We are duly favoured with your's of 16th instant, enclosing a communication from the Board of Trade in reference to payment of wages to Shetlandmen on board of ships in the Greenland trade, and headed by the words, 'Truck in Lerwick,'-a cry raised by a stranger who has taken up his residence in Shetland, and is now endeavouring, by every means in his power, to make himself prominent both here and elsewhere.

'We utterly deny that we have ever 'purposely frustrated' the Board regulations in respect to the payment of these men; on the contrary, we have kept a clerk, whose time has been chiefly occupied in settling the wages in presence of the collector as they came to town one by one, according to their own convenience; and you know how far the commission we get from the ships can go towards his salary. Nobody can compel the men to come to town all at one time for their wages; and if the releases of 1870 are not yet completed, it is not our fault.

'Without attaching any blame to you, we consider the document referred to-if it is meant to apply to us-a gratuitous insult. The Greenland agency is no great object, and after this season we shall not put ourselves in a position to have it repeated.'

'PETERHEAD, 23<d March> 1871. 'R. KIDD <to> HAY & CO.

'I sent the document from the Board of Trade, in case you should not have received a copy. I am of opinion that the men will suffer more by this new order than the merchants, from the experience I have had here. Were I not to give some credit to some of our own men during the winter, their families would starve. I do not wonder you feel sore upon the subject of the report.'

'LERWICK, 27<th March> 1871. 'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD.

'We have yours of 23d instant. With respect to advances, our people are differently circumstanced from yours. The married men have all farms in the country, and the young men live with their friends there, and we never see them from the time they settle the one year until they come to town to engage the next; so during the winter they neither ask, nor would we give them any supplies if they did, as in all probability they would offer their services first to agents who held no claim against them. Of the twenty men engaged for the 'Mazinthien,' not one was due us a shilling, and their month's wages was paid to them in cash at the shipping office at the time they signed articles; and any advances their families may get during their absence is given on their monthly notes, which are the only authority we have for making the deduction from their wages when they return.

'A great deal of absurdity has been written lately on this subject by well-meaning people, but who were entirely ignorant of the whole matter, and ready to believe whatever was told them, without taking the trouble to ascertain whether it was true or false.'

'LERWICK, 22<d. May> 1871 'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD.

'Referring to your letter of 16th March, we now send you enclosed abstract account of payments to Shetlandmen on board vessels for which we have acted as agents during the past three seasons, 1869, 1870, and 1871, to show how far we have benefited by what the Board of Trade are pleased to call the 'Truck System in Lerwick.'

'We are almost inclined to suppose the document now referred to, received in your letter of the above date, was titled at Peterhead, as we can scarcely believe it would be issued from a public office in London before previous inquiry had been made on the subject.

'As to signing the releases at the Custom House, neither the owners nor agents of the ship can compel the men to come to Lerwick for their wages, otherwise than they find it convenient for themselves. It would save us much trouble if they would wait in town a few hours after the ship's arrival, and receive their wages all at once at the Custom House; or, when they happen to be landed at a distance from Lerwick, if they could arrange to meet together here for the purpose at the same time.

'While matters remain as at present, whether these releases are signed or not, we can only do as we have always done in time past: pay the men promptly when they call. The supplies mentioned in the account now enclosed consist mostly of meal given to the men's families to account of their half-pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents, and servants' wages receiving and delivering it; so that, beyond the 21/2 per cent. commission on the wages, we have no inducement to continue in the trade.'

The abstract account above referred to is given below.*

* ABSTRACT ACCOUNT of WAGES paid by HAY & CO., Lerwick, to Shetlandmen belonging to Ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits Seal and Whale Fishery, during the years 1869, 1870, and 1871:-

Name of Ship Men Amount of Supplies before Paid in Wages and Sailing, and to Cash Oil-Money family during the Man's Absence 1869 Labrador 20 £94 14 10 £4 3 9 £90 11 1 1869 Intrepid 28 355 0 21/2 71 19 51/2 283 0 9 1869 Alexander 21 272 19 8 31 14 11 241 4 9 Total 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7 1870 Labrador 21 £196 9 5 £7 18 0 £188 11 5 1870 Mazinthien16 226 18 0 49 7 1 177 10 11 1870 Eclipse 12 256 2 0 29 5 9 226 16 3 1870 Erik 30 562 0 6 66 17 41/2 495 3 11/2 Total 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 1/2

1871 Labrador 25 £221 7 4 ...... £221 7 4 1871 Erik 26 138 2 5 £ 8 15 3 £129 7 2 1871 Eclipse# 1871 Mazinthein# 1871 Erik to D. Straits# 51 £359 9 9 £8 15 3 £350 14 6 1869 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7 1870 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 81/2 1871 51 £359 9 9 £ 8 15 3 £350 14 6 199 £2323 14 41/2 £270 1 7 £2053 12 9 1/2 Average per man for the three years £11 13 6 £1 7 2 £10 6 4

# Voyage not ended.

In conclusion, I have only to add, that Hay & Co. have given notice to their friends, the shipowners in Peterhead and Dundee, that they cannot continue any longer to act for them.

3624. You say in that statement that you manage four estates in the country: what are these estates?-There are two for which we act as factors-the estates of Lord Zetland, and Mr. Bruce of Simbister; and there are two of which we are lessees-the Burra islands, belonging to the Misses Scott of Scalloway, and the Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmavine.

3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island. We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current price of the country.

3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We have no lease of the island.

3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants, that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price.

3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing.

3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No.

3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop.

3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver their fish?

3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at the Skerries to the east of Whalsay.

3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes, at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that place.

3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have nothing there.

3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out Skerries?-No.

3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting, Delting, Nesting, and other places.

3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No.

3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to their families when the fishing is over.

3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the fish they take in the island that we expect to get.

3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else.

3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick, and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as to Burra answers that question.

3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one shop there.

3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with other parts of the parish.

3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and fishermen who are not tenants.

3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you, but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes.

3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very many.

3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No.

3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce, received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never.

3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely upon the proprietor.

3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing, and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay.

3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question.

3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor.

3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the produce of the fishing.

3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes.

3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the whole procedure.

3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or six years ago.

3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received their fish himself.

3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with his fish.

3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce.

3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper.

3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the men in that island £1222: would the number of men fishing for you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think there were 155 in 1870.

3662. That sum of £1222 was the amount of cash balances due to them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which, when paid, left them entirely clear in our books.

3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to me as factor separately out of that sum.

3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts.

3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes.

3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents, and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes.

3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?- Quite the same.

3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have pass-books, and some have not.

[Page 88]

3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a page for himself.

3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are entered on the one side?-Yes.

3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing.

3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them.

3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are entered in name of the company or crew.

3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the season for their fish.

3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case. They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the rest is divided among the men.

3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season the whole is added up and converted into money.

3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just according to the price of the fish for the year.

3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for market.

3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?- Yes; a different thing altogether.

3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt.

3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish.

3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market.

3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish throughout the season?-Yes.

3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally, made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the ling is sold in these months.

3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle immediately afterwards.

3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the beginning or December.

3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think they mostly all settle about November or December.

3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think we have settled with most of our fishermen now.

3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season, and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there is a reason for that: he has been out of the country.

3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the settlement does not take place until January or February?-The settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases they may as late as January or February.

3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one district before another.

3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at Whalsay?-In some districts they are later.

3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes, frequently.

3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to settle with them immediately.

3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman, for the sake of securing his services another year.

3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's services in the following year.

3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?- Yes.

3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it goes to Spain.

3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know exactly how far they can go with their fishermen.

3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?- Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at £23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt.

3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse together on the subject if they happen to meet.

3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current price?-No.

3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?- Not that I ever heard of.

3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned.

3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any such meeting.

3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of the country?-Yes.

3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know, the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry fish has been £23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same price to south-country merchants.

3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think there has been any difference this year at all.

3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum, left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not take into consideration so much the current price as the price which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was considered a very high price.

3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes £1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year.

3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a few cases.

3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the books there, and that the people are considered to be in good circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co. there.

3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances.

3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the expenses of transit.

3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say; it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere.

3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am able to judge, they are.

3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others, but they speak pretty freely to us.

3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are well paid.

3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict their advances very much. We could not allow them to get very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their advances.

3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or money either if they require it, during the course of the season.

3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the fish factor there.

3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps they go and deal with some other person; while others may have £5 or £6, or more.

3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean money advances?-They get any money they want.

3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to, and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits statement.]

3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year to be about £362?-Yes.

3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account would come to about £920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid them a larger sum of money.

3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop; and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the course of this year than we did formerly.

3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no occasion to take so large supplies.

3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?- They had better crops, and did not require them.

3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To the good fishing and the good crops.

3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick. They are quite at liberty to come here when they please.

3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year, and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money at the shop instead of entering it in the book

3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes, frequently

3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the Union Bank, which has been established longest here.

3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No; but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I believe the sum would astonish you.

3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings bank?-No.

3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing, and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed.

3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at another time not half so many.

3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver their fish to us.

3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we have the stations on the islands.

3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the curing stations, that they are much better off as they are.

3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could not go there every time they came from the fishing.

3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to the Earl of Zetland.

3746. Have you a curing station there?-No.

3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get.

3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No.

3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to our men at Scalloway.

3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago, after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every year, we got them to sign an obligation.

3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable and was laid aside, and has never been acted on.

3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us.

3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but some of them refused, and it was laid aside.

3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter.

3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was not for delivering their fish elsewhere.

3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of them; but I don't remember their names.

3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly.

3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that were imposed were returned.

3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.

3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes.

3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their fish to us still.

3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and sold to dealers there?-I am not.

3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now. The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at Faroe.

3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes.

3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co.

3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with the farm produce.

3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It may be the case, but not within my knowledge.

3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance; but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country.

3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases, but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his animal.

3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes.

3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could not mention any particular case.

3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that way?-No; we don't do it.

3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose.

3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they want anything. If they want money, they generally come here.

3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the others.

3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In the same way.

3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book in here and settle with them.

3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's accounts in Lerwick.

3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he receives from the men.

3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling with them when the other books are in use in the office.

3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at Scalloway?-Yes.

3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper at Scalloway is sent here.

3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes.

3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part.

3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not, because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay them.

3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?- Yes.

3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes.

3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases.

3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have to receive.

3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies there or here, as they find convenient.

3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their advances.

3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be necessary.

3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons, to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?- Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them meal and other things in order to keep their families alive.

3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons. Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell.

3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full.

3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so.

3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or not?-Yes.

3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?- Occasionally we have.

3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men when they wanted advances.

3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next year?-Yes.

3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes written and sometimes verbal.

3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give him money if he asked for it.

3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No. Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special advance.

3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people when they want goods, go to the shop for them.

3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.

3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during the summer.

3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.

3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the money in their hands, and go away from us with it.

3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay; but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men go away with it out of the office.

3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?- No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.

3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West Sandwick.

3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.

3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.

3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is about 120.

3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?- Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are bound to fish to us.

3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs. Henderson Robertson.

3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I think it is between £400 and £500.

3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but he is not a fisherman.

3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.

3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.

3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92] rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants, and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others; and I think we have the whole of these rights.

3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.

3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.

3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.

3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness; we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.

3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here. We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps supplies there also.

3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr. Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of fish?-I think not.

3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants, who are quite free.

3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with Mr. Bruce's fishings.

3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I think not.

3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.

3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.

3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a good change to pay them by wages.

3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer, and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.

3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per month. No one would engage them at that figure.

3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the men?-I think, for the most part, they do.

3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the end of the season.

3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not taken off each individual.

3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.

3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account separate from the accounts of the individual members of the crew?-Yes.

3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything beyond their own share.

3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?- No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at the debit of the boat account.

3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.

3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.

3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.

3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say. The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies either from us or from any other shop in the country.

3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.

3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.

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3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an account with such men than with others who did not deal with you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.

3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long as they're due a balance on the boat.

3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes; they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go anywhere else they like.

3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and go to another curer.

3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.

3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible, price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does happen occasionally.

3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.

3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from having too few bad debts?-Yes.

3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely to be unable to pay his own creditors.

3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all the profit, and he has none.

3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price.

3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only.

3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?- Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations.

3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a large number of fishermen?-Yes.

3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but such do happen occasionally through the islands.

3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it.

3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services to some one else.

3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100 fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of £2 or £3 or £4, and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again.

3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?- When he gets into our debt to the extent of £6 or £8, he very soon leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses and would get no return.

3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same principles as ourselves.

3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business, although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well, that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt.

3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish, which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?- Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make available.

3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods, and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount before he can carry on extensively.

3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come.

3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,- can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and while they may have got into his debt to the extent of £5 or £6 each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he has been giving them supplies all the time.

3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it throws the whole idle.

3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and getting rid of their services.

3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes.

3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a failure here for the last two or three years.

3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own, and they use their own boats and nets.

3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce; or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a bargain for them about the time they commenced.

3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes.

3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that the thing was not worth our attention.

3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing.

3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a price per cran?-Yes.

3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the end of the fishing.

3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes.

3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay them at the increased price.

3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,- would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their chance.

3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the market?-Yes.

3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us, and not fish for us another year.

3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the whole of the curers would require to agree to it.

3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we would keep clear of bad debts.

3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as possible?-He has the same inducement now.

3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?- They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the article.

3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods: could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence.

3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you will see that the variation has been extremely small.

PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive.

YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES Spring Summer Summer Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. 1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6 1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6 1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0 1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0

3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it.

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3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to the fishermen.

3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we were to buy for ready money.

3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods, that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the people in the trade.

3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen.

3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell for very much the same all over town.

3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I think they are very much the same.

3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would not come to us.

3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little.

3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the hosiery merchants as well as in other trades.

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