Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 6 of 8)

Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 6 of 8)

12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in that business?-Yes.

12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve.

12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five vessels?-They would average nine hands.

12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?- For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August. The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals.

12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.]

12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are on when we engage them.

12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach boys?-Yes.

12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no married women employed in any branch of our business.

12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day.

12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will be improved

12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier is the weather.

12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of boats than they have.

12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the winter?-No.

12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good and bad weather.

12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would not pay.

12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be because there was not enough good weather, and the men would not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid occasionally.

12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes, several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe; but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally continued, the fishing is so precarious.

12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many men to go to it.

12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is.

12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes.

12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of the fishing grounds.

12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these vessels.

12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides.

12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed. It has always been discontinued.

12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?- Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all.

12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?- Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling.

12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?- I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at one time.

12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the tenant.

12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is 1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr. Umphray is the chairman of the Board.

12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road.

12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think six or eight years, or more than that.

12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe, he has paid them at his own house.

12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson.

12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so far as I know.

12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his (Wallace's) house.

12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes.

12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their money.

12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on.

12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance from where I live.

12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer clothing. I think that is the only difference.

12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade regulations were issued.

12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are taken for these voyages.

12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes. They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men, bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant service; but now it is not, and cannot be.

12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there used to be.

12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but I should suppose it was very likely to have happened.

12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going there.

12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an outfit?-No, I cannot.

12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one.

12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or 20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they had nothing for clothing.

12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on making inquiry I found that that was the reason.

12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board of Trade regulations.

12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that.

12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited.

12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit, and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is.

12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could have got that information from.

12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women, because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a husband and wife.

12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share and having his own account.

12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions which he had formed when he was a boy.

12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns; and the fishermen, as a class, are living better and wearing better than they did in those days.

12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong.

12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr. Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that report.

12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade, whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself.

12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark, and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are incorrect. He says, for instance, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he will probably never get any employment again.' I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark.

12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don't believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time.

12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr. Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years, and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it.

12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent rather than to another.

12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another. For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a particular agent, and he went to him.

12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to another, all assume that the man got his supplies from the agent who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month's advance now in money.

12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a very small extent.

12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the case in former times?-I believe so.

12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by the men.

12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The class of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands used to get.

12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes.

12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money when they come back and have got their settlement.

12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?- I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more to the agents for their supplies.

12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade.

12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don't think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade.

12,546. Is there any other passage in the report to which you wish to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, 'This is merely one phase of the truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels, and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have become so assimilated to it, that they are either unconscious of its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they may have no option but to work for one master at such remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that in bad seasons he will not let them starve.' That is a fearfully overdrawn picture.

12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen through?-Yes.

12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years' rent, and he had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his requirements.

12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his debt.

12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have.

12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate.

12,552. But they did not leave you in these circumstances?-No; as a class, they are much too honest for that.

12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you from another employer, to become responsible to that employer for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don't think we ever undertook anything of that kind.

12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his employment?-I don't recollect any case of the kind.

12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken fishermen into our employment under such circumstances. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'The employer has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' That is a state of things which I know nothing about, and I don't believe it exists.

12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish, and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to speak of that as being the rule, is not correct.

12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that way.

12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing. Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went to Lerwick for it.

12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton's report correct except those passages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but it is overstated.

12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: 'For this purpose they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men?'-That used to be the case.

12,561. That means, of course, that the agents' chief profit arose from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case formerly?-Yes.

12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change.

12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have not heard of any others.

12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the principal part of these agents' profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you speak of several years ago.

12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season. How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt. of green fish to one cwt. of dry.

12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion as high as 21/2 cwt.

12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from the same quantity of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the same.

12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our chance of it varying.

12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to the actual quantity of dry fish produced from the green fish delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season.

12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively engaged in buying the fish green from the men.

12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don't always pay the current price.

12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don't bind ourselves by what others pay.

12,573. Did you ever pay less than the current price?-No; but we have sometimes paid more.

12,574. The men have no voice at all in settling what the price shall be: it is left entirely to the merchants, is it not?-I think it is left very much to the merchants with regard to the green fish.

12,575. Is the competition for fish sufficient here to bring the price up to the highest figure?-Yes; there is no fear of that.

12,576. Are you prepared to say that any complaints [Page 312] which the fishermen make to the effect that they do not get the fair current price which they ought to get for their green fish, as regulated by the current price at the end of the season, are unfounded?-We very seldom have such complaints.

12,577. But if there were such complaints, do you say they are unfounded?-I think the fishermen, generally are very fairly paid for green fish.

12,578. Are there not two prices for fish exported from Shetland, according as they are sent to one market or to another?-There are many prices. Although a current price is fixed, there may be a considerable difference in what the curer realizes. If a curer chooses to take the chance of consigning to a certain market, he may get more or he may get less than if he chose to sell here at what is the shipping price.

12,579. If a curer sends his fish to the Spanish market, for example, he may get a much higher price than by selling to a purchaser at home?-He may get a higher price.

12,580. Does he generally do so?-He generally does, because it is the best fish that are selected for that market; and if I choose to reserve a certain portion of any cure and take my chance of how the market will be going after Christmas, I may get more or I may get less. I may speculate in that way as I like; but every curer does not get the same price for his fish, although there is a current price fixed.

12,581. How is that current price fixed?-I cannot explain it very well. There is generally a great fight for about a fortnight between the purchasers from the south and the merchants here. The south-country buyers come down here, and sometimes they come to terms at once but sometimes they go away without fixing if they cannot agree upon the terms. About the month of September, however, the price generally comes to a figure at last at which the bulk of the fish go.

12,582. At that time are there communications between the fish-curers here upon the subject?-Yes; they consult together as to the offers they have, and whether they are to hold for a higher price, or take what they can get.

12,583. Is it usual that the bulk of the fish is sold at nearly the same figure?-As a rule, the bulk of the fish go at one price.

12,584. And the current price, according to which the men are paid, is fixed by that?-Yes.

12,585. Do you think it would be possible to introduce in the fishing trade here a system of paying at short intervals for the fish delivered?-I think it would be quite impossible. We would be very thankful if we could do so. We would be quite ready to pay our own men in cash the same as we pay all the Englishmen. We get large quantities of fish from English vessels, for which we pay cash; and we would be quite as ready to pay our own men in cash as them.

12,586. Why is that impossible?-There are many reasons for it. Our men deliver their fish at a great number of little stations all round the islands, and we could not have a person at each of these stations to pay them, without a considerable expense. That is the case with the curers generally.

12,587. You have only two stations besides Reawick?-We have more stations than that for receiving fish.

12,588. Would the factor who receives the fish not be quite competent to pay the men at short intervals?-Sometimes he might be there for that purpose, and sometimes not; but the difficulty would be with the men themselves. They would not be satisfied to have a price fixed then.

12,589. But part of the price might be paid as a bounty, as it were, and the balance might be payable according to the current price?- Such an arrangement might be made; but I don't see any object it could serve because, if our men wish an advance of money during the fishing season at present, they can get it. If they wish money to pay for anything they require while the fishing is going on, we make no difficulty in giving them that advance, because we know they are delivering fish which will cover it.

12,590. Would not the principal difficulty in the way of such a system be the necessity under which the men are of getting advances in goods or cash during the season? Would they be able to hold on till the fortnightly or monthly payment without getting advances?-They only require a very small proportion of their fishing, either in money or in goods, during the season. The great proportion of it has to be reserved for their annual payments of rent and poor-rates, and various other things of that sort. The great difficulty would be with the men: they would not like the system, because they would feel that they would be losers by it.

12,591. How would they be losers?-Because no curer would risk such a high price in the summer season as he is ready to pay the men in the autumn, when he sees what he can afford to pay.

12,592. But when a certain amount of fish is delivered, it is quite plain that something will be due to the fishermen at the end of the season: would it not be possible then to fix a minimum price, below which there could be no reasonable expectation of the fish falling at the end of the season, and the men might be paid according to that minimum price?-That would only increase trouble, without any earthly advantage, so far as I can see.

12,593. The men would have the money in their own hands?-The men have the money in their own hands as it is. I believe that from all respectable curers they get money for any purpose they ask it for.

12,594. But they have to go and ask for it specially?-Certainly.

12,595. And perhaps they have to ask for it as a favour?-Well, it is a favour. The money is not due for the fish. They have delivered the article, but it is in advance.

12,596. You mean the bargain is that the fish are to be delivered as caught, but not to be payable till the end of the season; so that the mistake, if there is one is in making that bargain?-I don't see that there is any mistake in it.

12,597. Do you not think the fisherman would be wiser to make the bargain to get his money paid as he wants it, instead of being obliged, when he does want it in the course of the season, to ask for it as a favour?-Such a system could not work, because in these boats there are certain expenses which must come off the whole crew. They may have hired men along with them, and they could not divide each day's fishing or each week's fishing, without a great deal of trouble and confusion.

12,598. Do you think the present arrangements between the curers and the men are so complicated that it is necessary to have only one settlement for the year?-I think the present system is the best that can be devised. It would be a complicated system if weekly payments were made; but there is no complication as it is at present.

12,599. Do you think the system that has been suggested would require too much accounting?-Yes; and the men could not take the time to do it, without being great losers.

12,600. Do you receive a large portion of your annual cure from the English boats which fish for you?-Yes. I suppose we receive about one-third of our cure from them. All the men who fish for us in these boats are paid wages, and they have a small allowance, called score money, on the fish which each man takes.

12,601. Do you buy their fish green at a fixed price?-Yes, at a price fixed with the master or owner, usually before the vessel comes out.

12,602. That price is a standing price for the whole season?-Yes, we take our chance.

12,603. And the owner also takes his chance?-Yes.

12,604. Do you think the men in these boats prosecute the fishing as vigorously and successfully as those in the Shetland boats, who are paid on a different principle?-They prosecute it with great rigour. Generally they are thoroughbred fishermen. They have all been apprenticed to the fishing when they were boys of 8 or 10 years of age.

12,605. Can you say that the practice which prevails in the Shetland boats produces a greater amount of energy in carrying on the fishing, and results in a [Page 313] larger capture of fish than in the case of these Grimsby boats?-I know that the Shetland boats catch more fish when competing with the others.

12,606. Are they equipped in the same way, or is there any difference in the style of boat or of equipment which would account for that?-They are very much the same class of vessel as to size and equipment.

12,607. Are the English boats in any way superior?-No, there is very little difference. Some of the smacks we have are the very same, having been built by the same builders. I am speaking now of the Faroe fishing, and these English vessels are all of the same size and description.

12,608. Which system do you think the best of the two?-The best for the Shetland fishermen is to have their share. Our men are better paid than the Englishmen.

12,609. Do they take more from their shares than the Englishmen take from their wages, as a rule?-Yes. I know the amount of their earnings.

12,610. I have been requested to ask you this question: In what number of boats, fishing at one station to different curers, would these men be willing to accept the value of a week's fishing, probably amounting to £20, and carry to their homes by sea, or undertake the subdivision of them more frequently than once annually, that at present?-I think I have answered that, or almost that question already. I have already said that I believe the men would refuse to adopt that system.

12,611. Is that in consequence of the trouble it would entail in dividing the fish?-Yes, and the time taken up with it. Besides, they don't require it.

12,612. How do you account for the English boats coming north to compete with the Shetland crews, although they receive less for their fishing than the Shetland fishermen do?-They are fishing all the year round, and they come north to fill up their time when fresh fish do not pay them on their own coasts.

12,613. Fishing is their only employment?-Yes.

12,614. You think it is not likely to become the only employment of Shetland fishermen?-Not generally.

12,615. And you think it is not expedient that it should?-I don't think it is. I think they all require something to do on the land as well.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, examined.

12,616. Are you a fisherman and tenant in Skerries?-I am.

12,617. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Bruce.

12,618. Do you pay your rent to him?-No, to Mr. Adie.

12,619. Is he your tacksman?-Yes.

12,620. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Adie.

12,621. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie, or can you engage to fish with anybody you like?-We are bound to fish for Mr. Adie.

12,622. How do you know that?-Because Mr. Adie told us we were not at liberty to fish for any other man except him.

12,623. When did he tell you that?-I cannot state the date exactly, but it has been since I commenced to fish there, eighteen years ago. That was the time when the agreement was made last.

12,624. What agreement?-That we were to deliver all our produce, fish, and every other thing, to him, and to no one else.

12,625. If you chose to fish for anybody else, what was the penalty to be?-That we were to be removed from our crofts.

12,626. Has any person been removed for fishing to another than Mr. Adie?-None, for there have been no offenders.

12,627. How many people are in these lands?-There are almost 130 of a population, old and young. There are six boats belonging to the islands that fish for Mr. Adie.

12,628. Do a number of people come there in the summer time from other places to fish?-Yes. They fish both to Mr. Adie and to Mr. Robertson. These are the only two who employ men there.

12,629. Has Mr. Robertson a station and a shop there?-Yes; he has a store for supplying his fishermen.

12,630. Is it open all the year round?-No, only during the fishing season.

12,631. Where do you get your supplies?-From Mr. Adie's shop at Skerries. It is open all the year round, and is kept by Robert Umphray.

12,632. Do you pay for your supplies at the time you get them, or do you settle for them at the end of the year?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes not for fifteen months.

12,633. How does it happen that you are sometimes fifteen months in settling?-We live in an isolated place, and Mr. Adie's people cannot sometimes get conveniently exactly at the twelvemonth's end, but they make arrangements to come when they please.

12,634. Is it sometimes late in the spring before they come to settle?-Sometimes we have not settled until March, but the usual time is at Martinmas.

12,635. Have you any objection to that state of things?-The only objection I have to it is that we do not have our freedom to fish to the person who will pay us best, and we should also like to be able to get our goods from the best market we can, and at the cheapest price we can.,

12,636. Can you not get your goods from any market you please just now?-No.

12,637. Why?-Because we cannot get our pay in hand.

12,638. Can you not get cash from Mr. Adie or from Mr. Umphray when you ask for it?-Yes, if we have it to get.

12,639. If you want supplies during the season, before the settlement comes, do you get them?-Yes, we can get our supplies then, as far as our earnings are likely to cover them.

12,640. Have you ever been restricted?-Yes; they only allow us to go so far as our earnings are likely to pay, and no further.

12,641. Have you ever been refused supplies?-Yes. I cannot give the date of that, but I have been put on an allowance both of meal and other things.

12,642. Did you get a certain amount of goods from the store each week?-Yes, each Saturday night.

12,643. How often have you been put upon that allowance?-That is always done, unless we can clear ourselves in Mr. Adies book.

12,644. When were you last put upon an allowance?-In 1869.

12,645. Was that a year of scarcity?-In our isolated place there is generally scarcity, because our crops are scanty.

12,646. Are they not sufficient to keep your families all the year round?-No.

12,647. Therefore you have every year to buy a certain amount of meal from Mr. Adie?-Yes, we have generally to buy about six months' provisions from him.

12,648. Were you put on an allowance in 1869 because you were in debt?-Yes

12,649. What allowance was made to you then?-Three pecks of meal a week; and there are seven of us in the family.

12,650. Was that less than you required?-Of course it was, but I could get no more.

12,651. How much do you use when you are not upon an allowance?-I could not say exactly, because when I can buy it for myself I take no notice. I think, however, we would require about five pecks a week.

12,652. Did you find the allowance of three pecks to be too small for you?-Of course we did.

12,653. Was the rest of the island put upon an allowance at that time?-All the indebted men were.

12,654. Were there many of them?-Most of the men in Skerries, in the fishing line were in debt at that time.

12,655. At what season of the year was that?-In summer.

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12,656. Were there a number of men at that time in the island who did not live there?-Yes, a great number.

12,657. Were they put on an allowance too?-I could not say as to that. I can only speak of those who live constantly in the island, and more especially myself.

12,658. Do you not think it was quite reasonable, that if a person to whom you were due money was to continue to make you further advances, he should use his own discretion as to the amount of these advances?-Of course, if I got the goods at the market price. I think I ought to have got my meal, or whatever I was requiring, at the market price in Lerwick, adding something for freight.

12,659. Did you not get it at that rate?-No; I found that I could buy meal 7s. per sack cheaper in Lerwick than in Skerries; and from that down to the lowest thing we got, it was generally charged one-third more than it could be got for in Lerwick or any place near to it. I have paid for a sack of meal at Mr. Adie's station at Skerries, when I could have got it from any merchant in Lerwick at 50s. or 51s.

12,660. That was a difference of 10s.: when did you do that?-I could not say, but I have done it. I think it was about four years back.

12,661. Was that before 1869, when you were put on an allowance?-Yes.

12,662. Were you in debt at that time?-Yes.

12,663. Did you get an advance of a sack of meal at a time, and were charged 61s. for it?-Yes.

12,664. Where could you have got it in Lerwick for 50s. or 51s.?- From Mr. John Robertson, senior. I got it from him at that, and paid the cash down.

12,665. Did you get another sack from Mr. Adie at the same time?-Yes, at the same date.

12,666. Did you get both of these supplies within month of each other?-Within a month or two.

12,667. Have you any pass-book or any paper to show that?-No.

12,668. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Robertson for the money?-No.

12,669. At what season of the year was that?-In January.

12,670. And you think that was about four years ago?-Yes.

12,671. That would probably be about January 1868?-I think so, but I cannot exactly say.

12,672. Did you buy the meal from Mr. Robertson in your own name?-One part in my own name, and the other part in the name of my father, John Hutchison.

12,673. Who gave the order to Mr. Robertson?-I did.

12,674. Did you tell him that one half of the meal was for yourself and one half for your father?-Yes.

12,675. Do you know whether the purchase was entered in his books?-I cannot say, for I paid the cash down.

12,676. Do you know anything about the quality of that meal?-It was just about the same quality as we could get from Mr. Adie.

12,677. Was it before or after you got the meal from Mr. Robertson, that you bought the sack at 61s. from Mr. Umphray?- It was after, about two months after at the furthest.

12,678. Did you say anything to him about the price when you got it?-I did; and Mr. Umphray told me he must sell it at the invoice price which his master sent to him.

12,679. Did you take the meal at that price?-I was obliged to do so, when I could not make a better of it.

12,680. Could you not have gone and got some more from Mr. Robertson?-I could; but I had no expectation of having anything at the end of the time with which to pay him.

12,681. Did you think Mr. Robertson would not have given it to you on credit?-I don't think it, for I could not have asked it.

12,682. Do you think Mr. Robertson would have given you the meal as cheap if you had been buying it on credit?-He would have given it to me cheaper on credit than Mr. Adie did.

12,683. Is there any other time that you remember, when you bought meal or any other goods at Adie's shop, and when you could have got them cheaper elsewhere?-That has happened every time.

12,684. But did you ever try at what price you could get your goods at another place in the same way as you did at that time?- I have done so at times. We can get as many sillock hooks at Messrs. Hay's shop, at Simbister in Whalsay, for 1d. as we can get beside us for 11/2d.

12,685. Do you generally buy your sillock hooks at Whalsay?- No; we generally go for them to the store where we are supplied. I could also get washing soda in Lerwick for 1d., and we pay 11/2d. for it at Skerries. I bought 14 lbs. of it in Lerwick yesterday at 1d. a lb. The last I bought at Skerries was about two months ago, and it was marked down to me at 11/2d. If I were buying as much as 14 lbs. at a time in Skerries, I would get no discount upon it; I would still be charged 11/2d. per lb.

12,686. Do many of the people in Skerries go for their supplies to other places?-No; they all go to Adie's store for them.

12,687. Why do they do that when the prices are so high as you say?-Because they are bound so far to do it, in this way: that they fish for him, and all their earnings go to him, and they must go to the store for whatever supplies they require.

12,688. Do you mean that they are obliged to get their supplies on credit, and that they have credit nowhere else?-They cannot have credit anywhere else until they see whether they have any money to get, and then they can come to Lerwick or any other place with their money; but they cannot do that at any other time.

12,689. Are you at liberty to sell the produce of your farm to any person you please?-No. We are under the restriction to take it all to Mr. Adie's store.

12,690. Who told you that?-Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor.

12,691. Is there anybody else you could sell it to?-No; except in the summer time, when Mr. Robertson's man is there.

12,692. Have any of you offered to sell to him?-Yes.

12,693. Have you been prevented from doing so?-Yes; we have been prevented in this way, that we were obliged to go to Mr. Adie with all that we had, or else we would have been put out of our crofts.

12,694. Did anybody ever interfere with you selling to Mr. Robertson?-If it had been known that it had been done, they would have interfered; but no man, so far as I know, ever put the produce of his farm or of his fishing past Mr. Adie.

12,695. Do you know of any person being fined for selling to Mr. Robertson's man?-No; but I know that my father was fined 2s. 6d. for selling a dozen of eggs to a man at the lighthouse station. That was in 1858.

12,696. Was that by Mr. Umphray?-Yes.

12,697. Was he Mr. Adie's factor at that time?-Yes.

12,698. Do you know of anybody having been fined in the same way since?-No; except men going to Greenland, or going any other way where they think they can be better. They are fined in this way, that every man, young and old, on the island, is obliged to fish for Mr. Adie.

12,699. But if a man goes to Greenland he is not on the island?- No; and it is for that reason he is fined.

12,700. But if he is not on the island, how can he be fined?-He comes back in the winter.

12,701. Who has been fined in that way?-I was fined, for one, in 1855.

12,702. Have you been at the Greenland fishing since that?-No.

12,703. Have you been away from the island since?-No.

12,704. Why have you not gone since?-Because I became a tenant of Mr. Adie then, and I had to stick by that and fish for him.

12,705. Were you not a tenant of his at the time when you were fined?-No.

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12,706. Then why did you pay the fine?-I must either pay the fine, or my father would have been warned away for me.

12,707. Were you told that your father would be put away if you did not pay the fine?-Yes.

12,708. How much did you pay?-£2.

12,709. To whom did you pay it?-To Mr. Adie himself.

12,710. Did you get a receipt for it?-No.

12,711. Was it put down to your account?-Yes.

12,712. Was it ever repaid to you?-It was never repaid to me, but these fines were repaid to some others. It was repaid to Andrew Williamson, for one. There were six men belonging to Skerries who went to Greenland in 1855, and they were all fined £2 each.

12,713. That is a very old story. Did it ever happen again?-No.

12,714. Have men gone to Greenland from Skerries since then?- Yes.

12,715. And they have not been fined?-No.

12,716. How did they escape?-I cannot say.

12,717. They just had their liberty, and nothing was said to them?-Nothing.

12,718. Do you think the fines imposed on these six men served as a warning?-I don't think so.

12,719. That did not prevent other men from going to Greenland?-No, not for a few years back.

12,720. But did it do so at the time?-No; some men went to Greenland immediately after that, and were not fined. I think the fines were imposed on these six men in order to try to stop them from going there; but it did not have that effect, and it was not attempted again.

12,721. Why did you not get back your fine, when it was repaid to Williamson and the other men?-I never asked it back.

12,722. Have you or anybody else been fined for that, or for selling your goods to other people, since 1855?-No.

12,723. Except on that one occasion in 1858, when your father was fined for selling eggs?-Yes.

12,724. Can you sell your eggs to the lighthouse keepers now, or to any person you please?-Yes.

12,725. You are not bound now to sell them to Mr. Umphray?- Not so far as I know.

12,726. Have you sold eggs to Mr. Robertson's man within the last year or two?-Yes.

12,727. How do you sell your beasts?-To Mr. Adie.

12,728. Can you not sell them to any person you like?-Yes; but the cash must be returned to him.

12,729. You mean the cash must be handed to because you must pay your debts?-Yes.

12,730. Is there anything else you wish to say about Skerries?- Nothing, except that I may state, on behalf of all the men who are in the town now from Skerries, that they would like their freedom to fish for any man who would pay them best, and be allowed to get whatever they require from the cheapest market.

12,731. Supposing you had your freedom, is there one to whom you could sell your fish for a better price than Mr. Adie allows?- There are no others at the present time, so far as I know; but opposition might arise if there were more buyers than one, and if we had our freedom.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, PETER HENDERSON, examined.

12,732. Are you a fisherman and farmer in Skerries?-I am.

12,733. How long have you been there?-This is the second year since I came there, but I was born in Skerries. I have been living in the North Isles for about twelve years.

12,734. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

12,735. How do you know that?-I just know it in the same way that the rest of the tenants know it. He is our tacksmaster, and of course we have to fish for him.

12,736. When you took your bit of land two years ago from him, were you told that you must fish for him?-Yes. Mr. Umphray told me so.

12,737. Did Mr. Umphray let the land and agree with you about it?-Yes.

12,738. He told you at the time that you must fish for Mr. Adie, and you entered into that agreement, quite understanding what it was?-Yes.

12,739. Do you take your supplies from Mr. Adie's shop, and settle up every year at settling time?-Yes. I have always had a balance to get then.

12,740. Did you get money besides that in the course of the season if you wanted it?-Yes, when I asked for it.

12,741. Did you ask for much?-No; perhaps for £1 or so, when I required it.

12,742. Were you at liberty to buy your supplies at any other place you liked?-Yes, if I had money to give for them.

12,743. Could you have got money?-I did not ask it for that.

12,744. If you had asked for money with which to go and buy your meal and tea in Lerwick, would you have got it from Mr. Umphray?-I don't know that. If he had known it was my intention to go with it to other parties, I don't think he would have given it to me, because he would have wanted for himself any profit there was upon it.

12,745. Have you any reason for supposing so?-I have only my own reasons for supposing it, and I would think so.

12,746. Has he ever told you that he expects you to buy your goods at his shop?-No. He has never said anything about that.

12,747. Has he ever had any occasion to tell you that?-No.

12,748. Do you think he would tell you that if you went and got your goods in Lerwick or in Whalsay?-I don't know.

12,749. Have you ever been fined for selling your produce to anybody else or for fishing for another than Mr. Adie?-No.

12,750. Do you want to have liberty to fish for another?-Of course we should like to fish for any one who would pay us most.

12,751. But you came voluntarily to Skerries two years ago, knowing that you could fish only for Mr. Adie there

12,752. Why do you object to that now?-I don't object to it, only I should like if I could get more for my produce.

12,753. Do you think you could get more for it from any one else?-I don't think I could get more for it at the present time, because Mr. Adie is paying as high price as any other man.

12,754. Why did you go to Skerries?-Circumstances led me to go. I could not keep the land I was on, because the rent was too high. That was in Fetlar.

12,755. Do you get your land cheaper in Skerries?-I have only half a house and land in Skerries, but I could not get that chance in Fetlar. I had a heavy tack of land there, and I was not able to pay for it.

12,756. Do you know anything about the price and quality of provisions in Skerries?-They are dearer than in Lerwick. I bought a boll of meal in Lerwick yesterday from R. & C. Robertson's, to take home with me, and paid 19s. 6d. for it, while the price in Skerries just now is 23s. I have not bought so much there lately, but I know by the peck price that that is the price of it. I bought a peck lately, and it was marked down to me at 1s. 4d.

12,757. Would it not have been less if you had bought a boll?-It might have been a little less, but not much.

12,758. To whom do you sell your cattle?-To Mr. Adie.

12,759. Do all the people in Skerries sell their cattle to him?- They generally go to the roup at Voe, and have a chance of selling them there.

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12,760. Do they take their cattle or ponies all the way to Voe?- There are no ponies in Skerries.

12,761. Are you paid in money for your cattle at the time of the roup?-Yes, if we want it. Of course Mr. Adie does not like to pay us the whole of it in money if we are in his debt, but if a man is clear he gets whatever he wants.

12,762. If a man is clear does he always get his money down, or is it put into his account?-If he wants to leave it in Mr. Adie's hands he will get interest for his money, but if he wants the money itself it will be paid down to him.

12,763. What are the usual earnings in the summer fishing?-They vary according as we are successful or not. Last, summer I think I had £18, 6s. for my fish from April to Lammas.

12,764. Did you catch some fish in the winter and early spring, before that?-Very little. I got perhaps 30s. for them.

12,765. Is the fishing of the Skerries men in summer as large as that of the men who come from the mainland?-Yes. Most of the Skerries boats are quite as well fished as the boats that come from the mainland.

12,766. Had you as much money to get as most of the mainland men?-I believe I had. I don't think there were any who were much above me.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, recalled.

12,767. How much did you get for your summer fishing last year?-£17, 19s.

12,768. Was that as much as most of the mainland men got, so far as you know?-Yes. I don't know what money they actually got; but I know the number of cwts. they took, and I know that none of them had much more than me. The highest of the mainland boats had 252 cwts., while our boat, which was manned entirely by Skerries men, had 246 cwts. 1 qr. 18 lbs. The mainland boat I have mentioned was one of Mr. John Robertson's. Ours was the highest fished boat belonging to Mr. Adie at Skerries. The six boats belonging to Skerries had all about the same take.

12,769. Do you think the Skerries boats generally had a smaller number of cwts. than the mainland boats?-In general they had more.

12,770. Was that because they lost less time in coming and going to the fishing?-Yes. The Skerries men had the advantage of Friday afternoon and Saturday above the Lunnasting men, who went home at the end of every week on the Friday afternoon, and did not return until Monday about twelve o'clock.

12,771. You had thus a longer time at the fishing than the Lunnasting men. How do you account for it that you had not one-third more fish than they?-I just account for it by chance or fortune.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, DAVID ANDERSON, examined.

12,772. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. I have been there since I was a child.

12,773. Do you hold a bit of land?-Yes.

12,774. Do you consider yourself bound to fish for Mr. Adie?- Yes, the same as any other.

12,775. Were you told so?-I was not; but my father was when he signed his agreement for the land, about twenty years ago. I have the half of the farm with him.

12,776. Have you ever been fined or found fault with for fishing to another, or for selling the produce of your farm to any one else than Mr. Adie?-Never.

12,777. I suppose there has been no occasion to do so?-No.

12,778. Have you ever sold fish, or eggs, or butter, or cattle to any one except Mr. Adie?-No.

12,779. Have you always got as good a price from him as you could have got anywhere else?-I usually got the currency.

12,780. Do you think you would have been better off if you had had liberty to deal with another?-I don't know that I would.

12,781. Have you any wish for a change?-No.

12,782. Are you content as you are?-Yes.

12,783. Do you think the evidence of the two previous witnesses was correct with regard to the price and quality of the goods at Skerries?-Quite correct.

12,784. Are the goods dearer at Skerries than they are elsewhere?-Yes.

12,785. But you have no wish for a change, and are quite content to go on paying the higher prices?-I am merely content to fish for Mr. Adie as well as for another; but I think the prices which he charges for his goods in the shop are far too dear.

12,786. But you are not bound to take all your goods from his shop?-No, not if I had the money.

12,787. Do you not get the money at settling time?-Yes, at settling time I do; but hardly as much as will keep me going for a twelvemonth, and I must go to him for some supplies.

12,788. Do you not get enough money at settling time to carry you on for two or three months?-Yes.

12,789. After that could you not get credit from any other shop where you could get your goods cheaper?-I have no doubt I could if I knew that I could pay my account at the twelvemonth's end.

12,790. But if you had credit at another shop where you could get your supplies cheaper, and if you got no credit from him, you could get all your money from him at settlement, instead of having part of it in supplies?-I could, but we have our rent to pay to him annually. In the meantime we might have a good fishing or a bad fishing, as Providence sends it. If we had a good fishing, we might have enough money to pay the men from whom we had got credit; but if not, we would not have plenty of money and then how could we pay our accounts?

12,791. Does not Mr. Adie take the same chance with you?-Yes.

12,792. You might have no money to pay him for the credit he has given you?-That is quite true.

12,793. Therefore he has to wait for payment just as another merchant would have to wait for payment, if you get your goods on credit from him?-Yes.

12,794. Then why do you think that another merchant would not give you credit?-There is no doubt we would get plenty of credit.

12,795. Have you ever compared the prices of goods at Skerries with what you could get them for at any other place?-Yes; and everything is dearer there than it is in Lerwick. For instance, cotton is always from 2d. to 21/2d. a yard dearer at Skerries than at Lerwick. I have bought cotton of the same quality at both places for oiling, and I found there was that difference in the price. Then last year I bought a sack of meal in Lerwick for 42s., and we were paying 46s. in Skerries for it at that time. It was in February last year that I bought it in Lerwick, from Mr. Charles Robertson, and I bought some in Skerries in April or May. I think the freight to Skerries is 8d. a sack. We generally get it conveyed by Mr. John Robertson's packet when we buy it in Lerwick, and I think his charge for it is 8d.

12,796. Were these two purchases of meal of the same quality?- Just about the same.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ALEXANDER HUMPHRAY, examined.

12,797. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am.

12,798. You are not a tenant yourself?-No. My father is a tenant, and I live with him.

[Page 317]

12,799. Do you fish to Mr. Adie?-Yes.

12,800. Are you not at liberty to fish for any other person?-I don't know. I am in my father's boat, and therefore I cannot get clear. I would like to oblige Mr. Adie as far as possible by going in his boat; but if we have fish to sell, and if there is another merchant in Skerries who would buy the fish, and perhaps give us 3d. or 6d. per cwt. more for them, we cannot sell them to him. We must give them all to Mr. Adie.

12,801. How do you know that?-Because we have seen it.

12,802. When did you see it?-About four years ago. There was another merchant there, who was giving more for the fish, but I could not leave the boat and go to him when the other men in the boat were bound to give their fish to Mr. Adie.

12,803. Did you think you were free at that time?-I did not know. I thought Mr. Adie could pay as much as any other man for fish, but he would not do it; and I could not take my fish out of the boat and sell them to another man when all the other men were selling their fish to Mr. Adie. It would not have looked right.

12,804. Who was the other merchant?-Mr. John Hughson, Yell. He was offering 3d. per cwt. more, and yet we could not give him our fish.

12,805. Did you try to take your fish away to him?-I did not try. I would have liked to have done it, but the fish had been weighed before I could get my share, and it would not have looked well to have taken them away.

12,806. Did you speak about that at the time?-Yes, I spoke about it to Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor, and he said we must give our fish to him, as we were bound to do so.

12,807. Have you ever been at Faroe or Greenland?-I have been fishing to Mr. Adie at Skerries all along.

12,808. Were you employed as a beach boy there at one time?- Yes, for two years. That was five years ago. The regular fee then was £3 for three-fourths of the year, and £4 for a splitter.

12,809. When you were engaged as a beach boy, did you get most of your payment in supplies?-Yes.

12,810. You were settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; and I was buying their goods at the same time.

12,811. How much of your fee did you get at the end of the year?-I got £1 the first year. My father did as much for me as he could, so that I did not require to buy meal from him. I got about £1 at the end of the second year also.

12,812. When you were a beach boy, could you not get your cash in hand if you asked for it in advance in the course of the year?-I know we might have got 1s. or 2s. to serve a particular purpose, but no more.

12,813. Were you expected to take it out in supplies?-Yes.

12,814. If you had asked it by the week, would you have got it?- No; they said they would not give it until the end of the season, and it was fixed then according to the amount of fish that had been taken.

12,815. Was not your beach fee a uniform sum, whatever kind of fishing there was?-No; there was a sum fixed at the beginning of the year, and then at the end of the season they gave us what they liked.

12,816. Is that the practice still?-Yes.

12,817. If it is a good fishing, the beach fee is fixed higher?-Yes.

12,818. And you think it is always higher in proportion to the success of the fishing?-Yes; and according to the number of years you have been at the work.

12,819. How many beach boys and men are employed at Mr. Adie's station in Skerries?-There are usually about six boys and two splitters. In some years there are eight, and I have seen as few as three and four. They settle with us at Skerries, in Mr. Adie's house there, not in the shop. They brought the books over from Voe.

12,820. When you were settled with at the end of the year, were you asked if you wanted anything?-No.

12,821. You were paid the money?-Yes, whatever I had to get. If I was due £1 or £10, there was 1s. per pound of interest charged against me, and that was done with every one in Skerries. I knew a man who was due £14 last year, and he had to pay 14s., but he cleared himself this year. If a man's debt is above £40, that is £2 a year he has to pay, and they never can get out of debt.

12,822. Are there many men who are due above £40, and who never get out of debt?-As far as I can learn, there is one.

12,823. How do you know that he never will get out of debt?- Unless better times come, I don't know how he can. He will not be able to do it with the present fishings.

12,824. Has he been long in debt in that way?-I believe he has been for a good while. Sometimes the debt may be £1 more or £1 less but the interest is always charged.

12,825. Have you sometimes had a balance to get at the end of the year?-Yes; sometimes I may have had £5 or £6 to get, and sometimes nothing.

12,826. When you have a balance of that kind to get, does Mr. Umphray never ask you if you want any goods?-He never says anything. We just please ourselves. I would never take anything from the shop at Skerries if I could get it in Lerwick, because everything is overpriced there. For instance, there is soap and soda. You cannot get a bit of soap there under 6d. a lb., and soda is 11/2d., while here it is 1d. Everything I could mention is dearer there than here. Sugar is 5d. and 6d. there, and I know that in Lerwick we can get as good for 5d. as we get there for 6d. If we were paid money every time we come on shore with our fish, or every time we want it, we would be able to get our things very much cheaper from other places.

12,827. Are you sure the sugar which you pay 6d. for in Skerries is not better than you would get for 5d. here?-I don't think it is. We pay 7d. for hard sugar there, and we can get the same kind for 6d. here.

12,828. Would you not have a long way to go from Skerries in order to get your goods cheaper, even although you had your money in your hands?-There is a packet going to Whalsay every week, and goods are almost as cheap there as in Lerwick. They are far cheaper than in Skerries, and it is the same freight to Whalsay.

12,829. I suppose it is not very easy to get goods carried to Skerries?-Unless from Whalsay it is not very easy. We can get them quarterly; but we could get them every week by the packet to Whalsay, by sending a letter to Lerwick, and then we could get them brought to Skerries when we had a chance.

12,830. Does Mr. Robertson's packet only go in the summer season?-Yes; but the Commissioners' mail packet comes every week to Whalsay, and any of us could go over there and bring whatever small thing we wanted.

<Adjourned>.

[Page 318]

BODDAM, DUNROSSNESS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 26, 1872

ROBERT HENDERSON, examined.

12,831. You are the son of Mr. Gavin Henderson, who is a merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness?-I am.

12,832. You have charge of his business now?-Yes, mostly.

12,833. Are you in partnership with him?-No.

12,834. You are his manager?-Yes.

12,835. Of what does your stock consist?-It is most impossible to say. It consists of drapery goods, groceries, ironmongery, coal, and I don't know what more.

12,836. Do you buy some hosiery?-A little; and we buy eggs as well.

12,837. I believe you have about the largest business in the neighbourhood?-We do a reasonable business.

12,838. You are not engaged in the fishing in any way?-We buy fish, but we have no boats of our own.

12,839. From whom do you buy fish?-From any parties who present them to us. We buy scarcely any in summer. It is mostly in winter that we get them, because in the summer months the boats are all engaged to certain fish-merchants, and the men sell their fish to them or to the proprietors.

12,840. Is it generally the proprietors who have the fishing in their own hands?-Some of them have, and some have not. Mr. Bruce of Simbister does not have the fishing in his hands; the others have.

12,841. To whom do Mr. Bruce of Simbister's tenants generally fish?-His tenants on the west side, those round us, fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun., Lerwick, and for Mr. Robert Mullay, Lerwick.

12,842. How many boats has Mr. Mullay?-I don't know exactly; perhaps seven or eight. He has a station at Ireland, and Mr. Robertson, jun. has one at Spiggie. They have no shops there. They have only the stations hired from Mr. Bruce. Those of Mr. Bruce's tenants who fish from Spiggie are bound to fish for Mr. Robertson during the summer months, and those who fish from Ireland at that time are bound to fish for Mr. Mullay.

12,843. Do you understand that these tenants are bound to fish for these merchants?-Yes.

12,844. Is that the understanding in the district?-Yes; but during the summer months only.

12,845. Do you know that from the men themselves?-Yes.

12,846. Have they often told you that they are bound to fish for these tacksmen?-They have often told me that; but they are not tacksmen, they only have the stations.

12,847. Do these men deal a great deal at your shop?-Yes.

12,848. Have they ever told you in what way they are bound, or how they know they are bound?-Robert Robertson, of Noss, once wished to have liberty to dry his fish for himself, and to fish from Spiggie, and he would force a beach for himself quite apart from Mr. Robertson's beach, but he was refused liberty.

12,849. When was that?-I could not say; it was about four or five years ago, I think.

12,850. Do you know any one else who was interfered with in the same way?-I know a man from Ireland who was obliged to beach and draw his boat in a ghive some distance from Ireland, in order to sell his fish to Charles Nicholson, Scalloway. His name was Gavin Goudie.

12,851. Are these the only curers for whom the tenants of Mr. Bruce of Simbister fish?-No. If they do not fish from Spiggie or from Ireland, they are at liberty to fish for whom they like. They can dry their fish or sell them wet, just as they please. A good many of them fish from about Scatness and West Voe, and sell their fish to Hay & Co. A few of them fish from Voe, and sell their fish to Mr. Grierson of Quendale.

12,852. But they are at liberty to sell to any person they like?- Yes. Mr. Grierson of Quendale has a station at Voe in tack, and the fishermen are not bound to fish for him unless they like.

12,853. Have you dealings with all the fishermen in your neighbourhood on the Simbister estate?-Not with all, but with most of them.

12,854. And also with some on the Sumburgh and Quendale estates?-Yes.

12,855. Are your transactions with these men generally paid for in cash, or do you run accounts with them?-We run accounts with them partly, and their purchases are paid in cash partly.

12,856. Do you run accounts with them for any length of time?- For a year. There is only a yearly settlement here, and we run accounts with them to the end of the year, when they settle with their fish-merchants. Then, as a rule, they pay us, though there are exceptions.

12,857. How do these exceptions occur?-Perhaps they are not able to pay us.

12,858. I suppose you are not very willing to give long credits in that way?-No. We would wish very much to have the credit system done away with; but we must do it.

12,859. You have not got the same security as a curer for whom the men are fishing?-No.

12,860. Do you think that more of the fishermen would deal with you if you were able to afford them the same credit as they get from the curers?-It is very likely they would.

12,861. But you restrict their credits?-Yes.

12,862. Have you understood from any of the fishermen, that they are obliged to deal at Grutness or Quendale in order that they may get their goods on credit?-Mr. Bruce, so far, as I know, does not interfere with his men with regard to the purchase of their groceries or goods. If they buy at Grutness, I suppose it will be so much the better; but if they did not buy there, I never heard any of them say that Mr. Bruce would say anything to them.

12,863. That is not the question. What I asked was, whether the fact that they can get a longer credit there, and there only, and that they have no ready money, obliged them to go to these shops?- Very often it does.

12,864. Do you know that from the statements of the fishermen themselves?-Yes.

12,865. Is it a common feeling amongst men with whom you come in contact, that they would like to have liberty to fish for themselves?-Yes, very much so.

12,866. Do they speak as if they felt that the restriction which is put upon them with regard to fishing is also a restriction as to the shop at which they are to deal?-If they have no cash, it comes to be a restriction. What the men want is to have the stations in their own power, so as to be able to dry their fish for themselves, or to sell to whom they like. That would give a competition in trade; but while the fishermen are bound to fish to certain parties, it causes a monopoly in trade.

12,867. What is about the utmost amount to which you can allow an account to run in the course of the year?-It depends very much upon the position of the party who is running the account. Ordinarily we allow an account with fishermen to run from 30s. to £2, but some of them run accounts up to £10.

12,868. Have you any men on the Sumburgh or Quendale estates who have run up accounts as high as £8 or [Page 319]£10?-Not on Sumburgh or Quendale to that extent; but I daresay some of them do run up accounts to the extent of £5 or £6 or £7.

12,869. Are the men who run accounts to that extent fewer upon these estates than upon the Simbister estate and the other estates in the district?-We don't run such heavy accounts as that with any men at all, unless they have something else to fall back upon

12,870. What was about the average price of your meal in 1870?- It varied very much. Before the French War broke out, the meal was very low. I remember that in the first of the season we were selling oatmeal for 17s. per boll, or 34s. a sack.

12,871. How much was that per lispund?-4s. 3d.; and it rose throughout the season to about 21s. 6d. or 22s., or 5s. 6d. per lispund.

12,872. Is the lispund less than a quarter boll?-We give it nearly about the same size. We give 34 lbs. to a lispund.

12,873 Is that usual in the country?-No; 32 lbs is the usual measure. We give 8 lbs. for a peck, and charge a less price for it than for a quarter of a lispund. We have the meal in boll bags, and when parties want a boll we sell it without breaking bulk.

12,874. Would you look over your books for 1870, and ascertain the highest and the lowest price at which you bought and sold meal in the course of that year?-Yes.*

12,875 At what are you selling tobacco?-We sell Irish roll at 11d. per quarter, and mid at 1s. per quarter. We sell the mid at 31/2d. per ounce, or 6d. for 2 ounces.

12,876 What is the price of the best quality of soft sugar?-We sell soft brown sugar at 5d. per lb. We sell our best crushed sugar at 6d., and hard sugar at 61/2d.

12,877 Do you sell lines?-Sometimes. Our price for 2-lb. lines is 2s., for 21/4-lb. lines 2s. 3d., and for hooks is 8d. per 100.

12,878. Are these quite as good as are sold by your neighbours?-I suppose they are. We sell them freely.

12,879. What is the price of a 60-fathom line?-We don't keep these, but they generally come to about 1s. per lb. The price depends upon the weight. When we buy fish we do so at a stated price, which is fixed at the time of the purchase Most of the fish we buy are in the winter time, from those tenants of Mr. Bruce who fish for Hay & Co. and Mr. Robertson and Mr. Mullay in summer. In winter they are free to sell to whom they like; and we put a price on the fish, and give them cash over the counter when the fish are delivered.

12,880. Do they sometimes take away the price of their fish in goods?-They can please themselves. We pay them cash, and they buy goods or not as they like

12,881. Do you always give them cash?-Yes, when we have got it. Sometimes we may give them an I O U, and others prefer to have the amount put to their accounts but the fish are bought at a certain price, and that is divided at the time amongst the men.

12,882. In winter the boat's crew, I suppose, consists of 3 or 4 men?-Yes.

12,883. Is any difficulty experienced in fixing the shares of the men at the time?-No. The price is just divided among them according to the way in which they want it.

12,884. You ascertain the price of the whole catch of the boat, and then each man takes his third or his fourth, as the case may be?- Yes, whatever the catch may be, each man gets his share of it.

12,885. Would there be any difficulty in paying for the fish in that way in the summer fishing?-In the summer fishing it would not work very well, because it would not do to give the men their cash just off-hand; but there is a way in which it could be done equally well. Suppose the men knew what the price of the fish was to be, the amount could be left in the hands of the parties who bought their fish from them. They don't require to draw all their money at once.

12,886. Do you mean that they could draw some of it?-Yes. What I hear the men complain of is, that they don't know what price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season; but if they had the fishing in their own hands, so that they could sell to whom they liked, they could make their bargain at the commencement of the season if they chose, in the same way as the herring fishing is carried on at Wick.

12,887. Or they might fix the price from week to week, or from month to month?-Yes. If there were several parties who were at liberty to buy the fish from the men, that would cause competition in the market, and the probability is the price would go higher.

12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it would, because they would be liable to spend the money.

12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would not work?-Yes, the only reason.

12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't experience any difficulty in settling with our men.

12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men. The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due; but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way.

12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr. Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like; but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of the season, or whenever they wish to square up.

12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in cash.

12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season.

12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have.

12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop, or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them.

12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes. We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them.

12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept.

12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do.

12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes.

12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you, you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight.

12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes; or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he has got from us with it.

12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to square his account with it or not, as he likes.

12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the cash?-Yes.

12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash.

12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No.

12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use, Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to each of them; and then the man who does not require so much sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock.

12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time.

12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the summer time.

12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known.

12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't know that they do.

12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to you?-I suppose so.

12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the country?-No; we buy for cash.

12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash price, and giving cash for it if it is asked.

12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them.

12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the goods at ourselves.

12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they know we won't take them.

12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case.

12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very often.

12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery on that system?-Very little at present.

12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I said, we have not got into the market rightly.

12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit when you buy it on that system?-Yes.

12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon hosiery.

12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again.

12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?- Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people themselves.

12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether they ask goods or cash.

12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods, and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen, but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like.

12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties wish.

12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in goods?-That is the custom of the country.

12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves.

12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods again.

12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes, very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that description until April.

12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more frequently?-Yes.

12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be paid more frequently also.

12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end of March before they are paid.

[Page 321]

12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have less cash to get.

12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them.

12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way.

12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which we buy in the winter time wet.

12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From 10 to 20 tons.

12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?- There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that we can.

12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for their fish.

12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the current price?-No; we just act for ourselves.

12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them.

12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes.

*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:-

LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson, Dunrossness, in 1870. Date of Invoice. 1870. a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d. l 126 Bolls

a ...£19 16 0 b ... 20 8 0 c ... 7 4 0 d ... 5 8 0 e ... 12 12 0 f ... 19 0 0 g ... 7 16 0 h ... 16 16 0 i ... 2 4 0 j ... 1 19 0 k ... 1 18 0 l £115 1 0 Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been ascertained.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH, examined.

12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes.

12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year.

12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh estate.

12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom they are to sell their fish?-No.

12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose to sell them to you?-Yes.

12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants.

12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh tenants in Dunrossness?-No.

12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter, in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year.

12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes.

12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes.

12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes.

12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they are, but in other cases they are their own boats.

12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the summer.

12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom.

12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take about five years to pay it up.

12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a year from every man.

12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time.

12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer than others, but I should say that on an average they last about fifteen or sixteen years.

12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same.

12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher.

12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get the services of the men, if possible.

12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I don't think it was so much.

12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in 1871.

12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think so, but I am not quite certain.

12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No.

12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men.

12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher price, and it has been paid for some years back.

12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have always looked for it since.

12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men who fished for him lived at some distance from me.

12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes.

12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4.

12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12 or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9.

12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well; I should suppose about an average.

12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing.

12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too. The advances were not all in shop goods.

12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the season?-Often.

12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they would not get such high prices.

12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high price?-Yes.

12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it. They don't know how to lay it out.

12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a difficult matter to learn some of them.

12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?- Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there.

12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my place.

12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door.

12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you three?-Not much.

12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to fish for you?-Of course.

12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little.

12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who would give them more.

12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any difference.

12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen years.

12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or seventeen years.

12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other way?-Yes, sometimes.

12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I suppose it is just their fancy.

12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or when he is out of it?-When he is out of it.

12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does.

13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which, when a man changes from one place to the other, the new employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no arrangement of that kind between us.

13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it.

13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes, when it was not very much.

13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season, or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr. Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book.

13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often.

13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes.

13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave.

13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their tenants?-No.

13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.

13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts, and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in some cases I give the money to the men.

13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is collected together.

13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves.

13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should do that?-None.

13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular men?-No.

13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No.

13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes.

13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes.

13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for in return.

13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for eggs?-Very seldom.

13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll.

13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember.

13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s. up or down, according to the market.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined.

13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage, Sandwick?-I am.

13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door.

13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes.

13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The very same.

13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last summer.

13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I understand the current price of the country has been 8s.

13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling.

13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?- No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and I understand the current price has been 4s.

13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as you have done last year?-No, not as general thing.

13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason.

13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please.

13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing carried on, and can cure cheaper.

13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for themselves?-Yes.

13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if they choose.

13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by their own hands they are never so good.

13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have.

13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced.

13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor, do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when they get an experienced man for the purpose.

[Page 323]

13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes.

13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes.

13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No.

13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes.

13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr. Tulloch's?-They are generally the same.

13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is 20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d.

13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold. The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can grow.

13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people, without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order to get his rent, and the people would be losers.

13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help them to pay their rents.

13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help.

13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them £140 to help them in paying their rents for this year.

13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more than they do now.

13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay rents?-Yes.

13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on with their rents.

13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good season, and when there is a bad one they are far short.

13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion, that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of all that can be done for them.

13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them for cash, not for fish.

13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or eight years.

13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes.

13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco and cottons.

13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?- No; I was getting tired of it.

13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the coast there is very dangerous.

13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally in the winter time it was.

13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly from Orkney as they required it.

13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from Orkney.

13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?- Never.

13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by him?-He never objected to me.

13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge.

13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often spoke with Mr. Hughson himself.

13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was there.

13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.

13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?- Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from him to go.

13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes.

13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four or five years ago.

13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and then he gave me full liberty.

13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there.

13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime.

13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would.

13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion that you were to have liberty?-He did not.

[Page 324]

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW, examined.

13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am.

13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?- Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had become bankrupt.

13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes.

13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought I could get the best bargain from.

13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No.

13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of any merchant in the neighbourhood.

13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr. Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound to fish for him.

13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him.

13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it.

13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.

13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?- No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce, and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.

13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes, for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had any money to get from him.

13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he received all their fish.

13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.

13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if they would take it.

13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.

13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.

13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.

13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He said he did not have it to give them.

13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases they got it.

13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.

13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they would not take his goods.

13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.

13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.

13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to give me.

13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of 1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again to Mr William Irvine.

13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the tack for two years more.

13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it twice?-I don't know about that.

13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I would have had to apply to the civil law to get it.

13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?- Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also receipt from Mouat in the following terms: '£5 MOUL, 13<th Jn>. 1871. ' This is to certify that I have from Thomas Halcrow the rent of 1871 in my hands. ROBT. MO.']

13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him.

13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did.

13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands.

13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing.

13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of 1870?-No. I know that he could not get it.

13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not get it?-No.

13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing.

13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year.

13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s. 3d.?-Yes.

13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course of the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his shop was so far from where I lived.

13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr. James Smith.

13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper; and the boat belonged to the men.

13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one merchant and part to another?-No.

13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson.

13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years.

13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his sequestration?-Yes.

13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged to fish?-Yes.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE, examined.

13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun.?-I am.

13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate as Mr. Bruce wishes me.

13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer going about the estate?-Yes, at times.

13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so at the present time; but these are very few. The general understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him.

13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About twenty-three or twenty-four years.

13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?- Yes.

13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325] then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were employed by them as fishermen.

13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect, but I did not see the letter.

13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I understood so.

13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't remember about that at present.

13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I don't remember about that.

13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?- It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything about it at the present moment.

13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago.

13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish.

13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised for that.

13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very likely I have.

13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes.

13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not see the paper.

13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No.

13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce.

13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of them have not delivered more than that during the whole time.

13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes.

13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that effect.

13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much.

13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No.

13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not bring them to him.

13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to the merchants round about.

13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I could not say where they went.

13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know. It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can.

13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling that they are rather in bondage.

13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time, both in the north and the south.

13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but I never told Mr. Bruce about it.

13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes, once a year.

13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way, and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as late as April.

13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that.

13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr. Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them, although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for some time.

13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not do much in dry goods.

13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we cannot avoid giving them.

13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on, our place is very busy.

13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till April or May without requiring any advances of that kind.

13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some.

13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try to enter all these things in the ledger daily.

13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every person has all his dealings entered in one account.

13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current price of bear meal for this year.

13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?- Yes.

13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended and added up.

13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll, and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets; and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that, then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over all.

13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is the way in which it is done.

13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an average price accordingly.

13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not know what quantity of meal they had had.

13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have time to mark down the meal.

13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?- We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally on a Friday.

13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?- Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt not long ago, and who would still have been in debt.

13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general the people are much more careful.

13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are they generally people who have had a balance against them at settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep them going.

13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as they choose.

13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?- There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good circumstances, and have the command of money, and they generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it cheapest.

13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No.

13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls 4s. 6d.

13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at another.

13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it.

13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the boll weight and a line for the lispund.

13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet.

13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may be.

13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is generally only part of the meal that is entered there.

13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are getting quarter bolls.

13,193. How do you know that?-At the beginning of the season we know quite well the people we are giving the meal to regularly, and those who just get it as they come.

13,194. Are there certain people who always get it in lispunds, and others who always get it in quarter bolls?-Yes.

13,195. And you know which is which?-Yes, because the people who get it regularly generally get it in lispunds; and sometimes if we give them a boll or half a boll, we mark it in the ledger at once.

13,196. Then you say that bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 4d. per lispund, and 4s. 6d. per quarter boll?-I think so.

13,197. And a lispund of oatmeal in 1870 was 5s. 6d.?-I think it was 22s. per boll, or 11s. 6d. per half boll, but I cannot say exactly. I think the price per lispund was 5s. 4d.

13,198. Then the entry which I noted of half a lispund of oatmeal in 1870-2s. 9d., would be for one half of a quarter boll?-I would suppose so; but I could not be sure about that unless I saw the entry.

13,199. But although you saw the entry, that would not help you?-It would not, but I could not say anything positive about that.

13,200. I received this piece of half-bleached cotton from you [showing], which you sell at 41/2d. a yard?-Yes.

13,201. Also this piece [showing], which you sell at 8d.?-Yes.

[Page 327]

13,202. And this piece of shirting [showing], which you sell at 1s.?-Yes.

13,203. These were all got from J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow?- Yes.

13,204. You sell your tobacco at 4d. per oz.?-Yes. We have two kinds, both sold at 4d. or 15d. per quarter lb.

13,205. Is that the price, whether it is entered in the account or sold for cash?-We very seldom sell for cash, but the price is the same in both cases.

13,206. Do you not take cash in the shop at all?-Yes, we take it if we get it; but we never have the chance of getting much of it. We get a few shillings occasionally. I don't think we get so much cash in the course of the year as will pay for postages.

13,207. That shows that your business is entirely for the supply of your own fishermen?-Entirely; and Mr. Bruce was never inclined to increase the trade as a shop trade. It is only to accommodate the fishermen that the things are kept.

13,208. That is to say, it is to accommodate those who do not have money with which to go elsewhere?-Yes. The men, on coming ashore, do not have time to go for lines and supplies to some other place; but it would be better for Mr. Bruce and the whole concern if there was no store there at all.

13,209. Do you mean to say that there is no profit on goods?- There is a profit on the goods, but the shop cannot pay the people that have to attend to it.

13,210. Are you paid by salary for your attention to the shop, or have you an interest in the sale of the goods?-I have no interest in the sale of the goods at all.

13,211. You sell your 2-lb. lines for 2s. 2d.?-Yes.

13,212. You sell your best sugar for 6d.?-Yes. During the summer, until the end of the season, it was 61/2d.: but now they get sugar of the same kind for 6d.

13,213. You purchase it from Greenock-two cwt. at a time?-I cannot exactly say where the last sugar came from. We had an agent in Glasgow to buy it from Greenock, and I understand he did so.

13,214. I observed an entry in December 1871-1 lb. sugar, 6d.: was that the best?-Yes. That was part of the last sugar we broke up.

13,215. That sugar was invoiced to you on 14th September 1871?-I think so; but the sugar had been higher in the course of the year.

13,216. What was the price at which sugar sold in your shop in 1870?-I think it was 61/2d., because the price of sugar was higher then. We had the finest sugar in 1870 as high as 7d., but never above that.

13,217. Do you keep only one kind of sugar?-No, we have more than one kind. It is not always alike. We have two different kinds of sugar.

13,218. I show you an invoice dated 12th May 1870, 1 cask sugar 2 1 25 18 2 1 7 at 42s. 6d. £4, 18s. 4d. Grutness shop debtor, £6, 1s. 41/4d.

At what price did you sell that sugar per lb.?-I think it was 61/2d.

13,219. What would be the freight of it from Greenock to here?-I could not say. I think Mr. Bruce keeps the freight accounts.

13,220. The sum of £6, 1s. 41/4d. is entered against the shop: is that the sum you were to realize by the sale of that sugar?-Yes.

13,221. Or does it merely indicate the price and the expenses, leaving you to fix the selling price yourself?-No; I think that is what was expected to be realized, and all expenses and inlake have to come off that. I think that is the net sum that must be realized after expenses and inlake.

13,222. Was there no more than that realized from the sugar contained in that invoice?-I could not say. I have not tried that particularly.

13,223. You have shown me two invoices of meal, one August 12th, and the other August 23d, 1870, from Jonathan Mess; one for 10 bolls oatmeal at 19s., and the other for 15 bolls at 17s. 9d.: I suppose the difference in price between these two is to be accounted for by the variation in the market price at that time?- Yes.

13,224. Was that meal which you got in August the dearest purchase of the year?-I don't remember.

[Produces invoices, showing the following purchases in 1870:- April 1, 25 bolls of oatmeal at 15s. " 1, 1 " " " 15s. " 22, 20 " " " 15s. 6d. June 3, 40 " " " 16s. 3d. " 14, 60 " " " 16s. 3d. Aug. 12, 10 " " " 19s. " 23, 15 " " " 17s. 9d.

Those are the prices at Aberdeen, exclusive of the cost for bags, which were charged separately.]

13,225. Was that the whole supply of meal for 1870?-Yes.

13,226. Had you a stock in hand at the beginning of the year?- None.

13,227. I think you said before that you had very few sales before April?-Yes; we do very little in meal before the fishing begins.

13,228. What quality of oatmeal is contained in these invoices?- It is meal ground entirely from Scotch home-grown oats. A great part of the meal that comes to this country is grown from foreign oats, and is not nearly so good, and it can be bought far cheaper.

13,229. Was the oatmeal of the best quality which you sold for 5s. 4d. per lispund, or 5s. 6d. per quarter boll?-Yes.

13,230. Do you know anything about the freights from Aberdeen?-I think Mr. Bruce will be better able to speak to that than I can.

13,231. You get your tobacco from Mr. Henry Christie, Edinburgh?-Yes.

13,232. Have you charge of the despatch of goods to Fair Isle when they are required?-Yes. When the vessel is going I supply the man's orders if the things are in Mr. Bruce's shop. At times we have to buy trifling things at other shops to supply the people with.

13,233. I noticed in your Fair Isle order-book an entry of 2 cwt. soap ordered from Hedly & Co., Newcastle, on 30th August 1871: at what price would that be retailed in Fair Isle?-At 6d. per lb.

13,234. Have you the invoice price of that?-No, not in 1871: but it was very similar to the price in 1870. We generally got the finest extra pale brown soap. [Produces invoice of 18th August 1870, showing the price of soap at that time to be 28s. per cwt.]

13,235. In the same order-book there is an entry of 4 cwt. soft sugar, ordered on 30th August 1871 for Fair Isle: at what rate would that be sold there?-If it is the same quality as ours, it would very likely be sold at 7d.; it would be at least a halfpenny dearer in Fair Isle, to cover the expense of freight.

13,236. But you don't know what was the quality of sugar that you sent to Fair Isle in August 1871?-No; we never break up the casks, but the quality ordered would be the same as the common brown which we order for ourselves.

13,237. Are the whole supplies to Fair Isle furnished by Mr. Bruce?-He generally furnishes what is ordered by the factor.

13,238. Do you know whether the factor has instructions to prevent any one else from trading with the inhabitants?-I don't think he has very positive instructions on the subject, because he could not prevent it. Mr. Bruce and I were there this year, and at that time two vessels came to trade. We saw them there, but could not prevent them. One pretty large sloop came down from Westray, belonging to a man called Luggie; and Rendall came also and traded during the whole night when I was asleep. We did not know that he was doing anything until he was under weigh, and when the vessel was off we saw that he had half-a-dozen cattle on board. Rendall goes from house to house [Page 328] on the island, and trades with the people just like a hawker.

13,239. Are the inhabitants prohibited from selling their cattle to Rendall, or to any other outside trader?-I think they were made aware that Mr. Bruce wanted the preference of the cattle from people who were in debt; but it is generally those individuals who are in debt who try to slip off their cattle in that way when they have a beast to dispose of. The people who are well to do on the island give Mr. Bruce the preference willingly.

13,240. Do you purchase cattle for Mr. Bruce?-Merely in the way of business. He was in the south when the public sales took place this year, and I and his grieve did purchase a few beasts for him. Our only object in doing so was to keep up the sales, so that the tenants might get a better price for their cattle.

13,241. Like other merchants in Shetland, does Mr. Bruce purchase a number of cattle for re-sale?-No: he never drives a trade of that kind. He has four cattle sales in the year, and he buys his cattle generally at these sales: which have been the means of keeping up the price of cattle in this end of the country ever since he began them.

13,242. Are cattle frequently taken by Mr. Bruce in liquidation of a debt due by a tenant?-Those tenants who are in debt, and who have cattle, are generally requested to bring them to a public sale.

13,243. When a man is in arrear, is he asked to do that?-Yes, when he has a beast to dispose of. These are Mr. Bruce's instructions.

13,244. Do you recollect one Thomas Wilson in Fair Isle being forbidden to sell a cow to Rendall?-The factor may have forbidden him, but, so far as I know, neither Mr. Bruce nor I did so.

13,245. Did you know of a cow of Thomas Wilson's being brought over and sold here for £4, 1s.?-Yes. I remember that transaction quite well, for he wanted me to buy the cow for Mr. Bruce; but I thought as he had come out of the island with her himself, the best way to give him a fair chance of selling his cow was to allow him to take her to the public sale and put her up to auction. He said he had had an offer of £5, 10s. from Rendall, but I said I did not think the animal was worth it.

13,246. Do you think he was really offered £5, 10s.?-It was £4, 10s. he said he was offered, and Mr. Bruce of Vinsgarth bought the cow for £4, 1s. at the sale.

13,247. Then he only lost 9s. by not taking Rendall's offer?-Yes; and I only had his own word for it, that he had been offered that.

13,248. Are you quite sure it was not £5, 10s. that Wilson said he had been offered?-Yes, I am sure it was £4, 10s.

13,249. Did she not look like a cow that anybody would offer £5, 10s. for?-No: she was sold too high as it was. I bought far cheaper cattle than that for Mr. Bruce. When the cow was sold Wilson was quite satisfied with the price

13,250. Would you be surprised to hear that the meal at Grutness is very often sold at 4s. a boll dearer than the same meal had been got for in Lerwick?-I would be rather surprised at that. It cannot be the same quality of meal if that is the case.

13,251. Do you say that it is not the case?-I cannot say what they may sell their meal for at Lerwick. The men sometimes go to Lerwick with money, and bargain to get goods under the market price. I have seen that done, and a handle of that may be made in Lerwick.

13,252. Are you aware whether the tenants on the Sumburgh estate have been offered leases and refused them?-Yes.

13,253. If they had got leases, would they have released them from the obligation to fish for their landlord?-I don't think Mr. Bruce would have given lease of that kind unless he had raised the rents on his property, because it is on account of the fishing that he does not raise them as it is.

13,254. Do you understand that the farms are let at a lower rent in consequence of the men being obliged to fish?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce would get higher rents if that was not the case.

13,255. Do you know whether these [showing paper headed, 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate'] are the rules that were laid down for the management of the property?-Yes.

13,256. I believe very few of the men have accepted them?-None at all, to my knowledge.

13,257. But that contains no obligation about fishing?-No; but the thing in it which the men object to is the last paragraph: 'Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into his own hands any part of his estate at any time on giving the tenant legal notice.' The men object to that, and I think I would do the same if I was taking a lease.

13,258. Do you understand that if the men agree to these regulations they would be free from the obligation to fish, or is that obligation referred to in the clause, 'The tenant shall be bound to observe the rules generally in force on the property for the time being?'-Of course it would be considered that they would still have to deliver their fish to Mr. Bruce at the current rate of the country; but although they have no leases, there is no man who has been annoyed on the property since the young laird had the management of it.

13,259. Have you sometimes heard the men complaining that they only got lispund weight?-Sometimes they did, but sometimes when we had to give them pecks we could not afford to give more.

13,260. When you sell pecks do you charge boll price?-No, we charge it little beyond that; but if we retail meal out in peck weight we lose a great deal.

13,261. Supposing 5s. 6d. was the quarter boll price in 1870, what would be the price of a peck?-We would not weigh it out in that way.

13,262. What would be the price of a peck if it was weighed out? Would it be 1s. 41/2d.?-It would be somewhere thereabout; but there is not so much inlake [sic] in weighing out small quantities of meal as there is in other things.

13,263. But if you were selling a peck of meal when the price was 5s. 6d. per quarter boll, what would you charge for the peck?-I suppose it would be 1s. 4d.

13,264. That would be a 1/2d. less than the quarter of quarter boll?-Yes, I think I would charge about that.

13,265. Then is there any foundation for the statement of the men, that they only got lispund weight at the boll price when they bought it in pecks?-There might be but I could not say as to that. It might have happened in some cases.

13,266. But that would be intended to cover the loss in weighing out?-If we take a sack of meal and weigh it out in lispunds and pecks, there is a great inlake [sic] and often when the meal comes wet there is some of it lost in transport, and when it lies long there is a great deal lost in the stores by vermin and in other ways, and the inlake [sic] must be met in some way.

13,267. Do you always read over the accounts of the men to them before settlement?-Generally.

13,268. Do you check them along with the men?-Yes; and Mr. Bruce never enters the amount of their accounts until the men are satisfied with them.

13,269. You hand in the total amount of a man's account at the shop to Mr. Bruce in order that it may be entered in Mr. Bruce's own ledger for settlement with the man?-Yes. When Mr. Bruce begins to settle, the Grutness ledger is brought up to the office, and the accounts are added up and squared off. Mr. Bruce never enters a shop account in his ledger until he and the men agree that it is correct. Some of the men also have accounts of their own, and can compare every article as it is entered in the shop ledger.

13,270. Do you know what arrangements are made with the men about boats and lines?-There is no arrangement. They furnish their boats and lines for themselves.

13,271. Is that so in all cases?-Yes. If a man is not able to buy his boat, or when he is shifting, he [Page 329] goes to Mr. Bruce before the fishing season begins and gets an order for a new boat.

13,272. Is he expected to pay that up by instalments?-He is not asked for it until he settles matters at the twelvemonth's end.

13,273. But is there a fixed instalment payable each year by a term of years, or is it paid just as the man finds himself able to do so?- There are some men with money to get who would be able to pay up the whole price of their boat at the first settlement, or the greater part of the price. That is seldom the case, but I have known it to happen. Generally they get twelve months' credit, and at the end of the twelve months any money that is due to them is entered the same as cash to account in Mr. Bruce's books. Then if a man cannot pay his way altogether, the balance is carried on perhaps for several years.

13,274. How long is it before a boat that is purchased in that way is usually paid for? would it be three or four years, or more or less?-Of course it depends very much on the circumstances of the men. If it is a poor man who has generally been behind, he may have a balance this year against him, which may run on for half a dozen years always increasing, and his share of the boat may be in that balance.

13,275. You mean that his share of the boat may be very long in being paid, while the other shares may be paid up sooner?-Yes; but the expense of a boat is not very great. I don't think one of the boats we have would cost more than £3 for the whole affair-that is, the material we give the order for.

13,276. Do you mean to say that a boat for the longline fishing costs only £3?-The material of it does.

13,277. Do you not use the six-oared boats here?-They are beginning to use the six-oared boats now, but they are very expensive. There are two or three now. I think there were some before Mr. Bruce came to the place, and now for the last two years their use is becoming general.

13,278. Has the fishing been carried on entirely with the small boats hitherto?-Yes; and I believe the small boats in general make most money.

13,279. How many men are in each of those small boats?- Generally three men, or two men and two boys.

13,280. That is a different system from what prevails in other parts of Shetland?-There is no difference, except that our men make more money than they generally do in the north fishing, and there are no men in Shetland who have to incur less expense for sea material.

13,281. Do you engage any fish-curers?-Yes, for Mr. Bruce.

13,282. Is the fee fixed at the end of the year according to the result of the fishing?-No; it is generally fixed at the beginning; but when a heavy fishing occurs, we generally advance their wages a little.

13,283. Do these men and boys generally run an account at the store?-Very little. I was observing from the books, that one man had as high a fee as £10 last year, and £12 the year before, and this year I think he is to have £10 again; and I don't think he has an account of £1 in the book, or anything near it. All that he gets is a mere trifle; a few shillings up or down.

13,284. Do most of the people engaged in the curing get a large part of their earnings in money?-Most of them do. There is seldom a year when we do not have people from other estates curing for us. We get them wherever we can; of course at as low a rate as possible. They sign an agreement for the season, and then they are paid according to that agreement generally at Martinmas.

13,285. Are the tenants upon the estate bound to send their sons to the curing?-They are not regularly bound, so far as I know; but it is understood in the same way as with the fishing, that if a man has a son, and we can afford to give him as much wages as another, we are to get the preference.

13,286. Have you interfered with any boys going to other engagements, in order that you might have them for the curing?- There was one case of that kind last year, with the son of William Goudie.

13,287. Had he got another engagement?-He was not engaged. His uncle is manager at the station, and he wrote me saying that he boy could get £3, 10s. of wages from another party, and that we would not get him again unless we gave him that wage. That was far higher for a boy's wage than we were in use to give, and I told the boy to tell his father to come over and speak to Mr. Bruce or me about it. The father came over and told Mr. Bruce and me that the boy had been offered £3, 10s. and we distinctly told him that if we could not afford to give him the same wages, he was at liberty to go to any one he chose. I also said we could hardly believe that he had got such a rise, but I told him, and Mr. Bruce also said, that if he could get 1s. more we did not want the boy, and he could engage him to any one he chose. The father went home, but he thought that perhaps we would be displeased if he gave the boy to another, and the boy went to the store. He went with his own accord, and by his father's instructions, and remained the whole season. He was a very good boy, and when he settled with Mr. Bruce he gave him the same wages that he had stated, £3, 10s. The father was a tenant of Mr. Bruce's, but at first we could scarcely believe that the boy had got the offer of such a rise.

13,288. Do you believe now that he got the offer of such a rise?- Yes. The man was one of those who were examined in Lerwick, and that was his declaration, and I believe it to be true. There have been other cases where boys have not been interfered with when they had engaged with another party. Last year one of Mr. Bruce's tenants had a boy who was engaged with another party to cure fish, and he would not come to us at all, and there was nothing said about it.

13,289. Is there any expectation on your part that the men whom you employ in the fishing shall come for goods to your shop?- No. We would rather be clear of it. The only trouble we have in the matter is to keep some of them from coming too much to us. They want more goods than we are inclined to give them. We never lay in goods to induce them to come, while those who have plenty of money go to other shops, and perhaps never come to us at all. We never ask them to do so.

13,290. Do you think you would get as many and as good men to fish for you if you did not have the shop at all?-I think so. The principal advantage which the shop is to them is that when they are coming ashore they require fishing material, such as hooks, twine, lines, and other things, at the place where they land, and before they go to sea again. We endeavour to get the best of that material for them, because there are always a great many complaints made in Shetland about the quality of that material. Two or three years ago, when I was south, I went to two or three of the principal makers, and got hooks made on purpose for our trade. We pay 41/2d. per 100 for them to the manufacturer above what other merchants pay; and the other merchants sell their hooks at 2s. 4d. per lb, while we sell them at 2s. 6d., being a loss to us of 21/2d. upon every 100 hooks that we sell, over what is charged by our neighbours.

13,291. That is to say, you get 21/2d. less profit than other merchants do?-Yes. I also made arrangements for lines and twine being made specially for us in the same way. For 2-lb. lines, although we try to keep a better article, we charge only 2s. 2d., while I find that other parties charge 2s. 3d. for the same thing; and our articles are better, because they are made specially for us.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JOHN BRUCE, jun., examined.

13,292. You are a son of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and you hold a tack from him of his property in Dunrossness?-Yes.

13,293. You have prepared a statement on the subject [Page 330] of this inquiry which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.

[The witness put in the following statement.]

'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are at liberty to go to sea or to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their fish to me and receive for it the full market value. This is one of the conditions on which they hold their farms and is, I consider, a beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient places for them to deliver their fish.

'I am obliged to keep stores at some of the fishing stations for the convenience of the fishermen, to supply them with fishing gear, groceries, and other things which they may require. But no fisherman is expected or wished to take anything from these stores unless it is his wish to do so.

'Any fisherman can get the full value of his fishing in money from me at any time if he wishes it. I have never once refused to pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money. And, in fact, there are many cases in which fishermen take nothing whatever out of my stores, but receive the full value of their fishing in cash.

'I have also fishing for me fishermen who are not my tenants, and over whom I have no control; and these are treated in every respect the same as my own tenants.

'Prior to 1860 the tenants on the property managed by me were permitted to fish to any one they liked, and the people were very much in debt, both to the landlord and to the various merchants to whom they fished-and, for the most part, could not pay their rents.

'The debts to the landlord averaged two years' rents over the whole property.

'On account of the general state of bankruptcy, I was obliged to take the fishing into my own hands, and I consider the people now to be in a much more flourishing state.

'For the most part, fishermen are quite satisfied with having their accounts read over to them. But those fishermen who ask for copies of their accounts at settlement always get them, and the books are always open for them to refer to at any after-time.

'With regard to the prices charged at the stores, the goods I keep are in all cases of the best quality, and may be a little higher-priced than goods of the same description but of inferior quality, but I am not aware that anything is charged unreasonably high.

'NOTE.-The only grievance of which my tenants can complain is, that they are obliged to fish to me. This, I will endeavour to show, is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen.

'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the most prosperous districts are those under the direct management of the landlords.

'Many of the fishermen in this country (as indeed many of the poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and care to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and require to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like children, and are much better off under the management of a landlord who has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if in the hands of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit out of them.

'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in some cases wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits.

'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord should prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and if so, why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making it one of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if fishermen they shall fish to him.

'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their landlord, and other conditions being equal, would prefer to give him their fish.

'The same thing is done everywhere else. In Orkney, in many estates, the tenants are obliged to manufacture a certain quantity of kelp, and to deliver it to the landlord at a certain fixed price, which leaves the landlord a large profit.

'In many counties in England and Scotland, farmers are required to send their grain to mills belonging to landlords, and to perform certain services, such as cartage for the landlord, either free or at a low fixed rate. I can see no greater hardship in a Shetland landlord letting his farms to tenants who will fish to him, than in a south-country manufacturer letting his cottages to tenants who will work to him.

'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of trade which might be improved; but the system has been of long growth, and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any change must be very gradual; a sudden and sweeping change to complete free-trade principles and ready-money payments would not suit the people, but would produce endless confusion, hardship, and increased pauperism.

'Under the present system, our small rentals and large population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords support a great many families which would otherwise be thrown on the rates.

'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and repay the landlord's advances.

'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the country but depopulation.

'It has never been the habit in Shetland to fix the price to be paid for the fish till after the fishing is over. Complaints have been made against this, and I do not defend the practice, but I believe it to be popular with fishermen; and I believe, on the whole, they receive more money for their fish under the present practice they would if an engagement at a fixed price was always entered into at the commencement of the season.

'If you ask a fisherman if he has a grievance, he will be sure to try and find one for you; but I do not believe that the respectable part of my tenants find it to be any grievance their being obliged to fish to me.*

[Page 331]

13,294. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.

13,295. Has he explained correctly, so far as you have heard, the manner in which the business is carried on at Grutness?-His statement was substantially correct; but I could satisfy you on some of the points that he did not know about.

13,296. There was a question asked about a Thomas Aitken, whether he had signed any special obligation with regard to fishing?-I am not aware that he ever did. It would not be usual to make him sign any agreement with regard to that.

13,297. Was there any agreement signed with regard to the fishing when you were in partnership with Mr. Grierson?-None that I am aware of with regard to the men, and I know of no special agreement with Thomas Aitken.

13,298. Was there any agreement with any of the men?-No. The only persons who sign agreements are fishermen who do not belong to the property I manage

13,299. Are agreements signed with them?-Yes. In the case of a man coming to me for an advance of money, I occasionally make him sign an agreement to fish for the rising year, in case he may take the advance of money from me and then go somewhere else.

13,300. Do men from adjacent properties sometimes come to you for an advance in that way?-Yes.

13,301. Do they get advances from you in money or in supplies?- In money or in goods, but generally in money; and in these cases agreements are sometimes written out.

13,302. Do you remember James Brown being told by you the reason why his farm was advertised to be let?-Yes; but I am not very clear about the time.

13,303. Was it about ten or twelve years ago?-I don't think it was so long ago as that. There were two men, James Brown and William Irvine, at Toab; I either advertised their farms, or threatened to advertise them.

13,304. For what reason did you do that?-I am not very sure that I can recollect. I don't think it was for selling fish. I think it was for breaking some rule.

13,305. Was it not because he (Brown) had sold some fish to Robert Leslie, Messrs. Hay's factor?-I think not. I think it was for declining to assist to cure some fish in spring; but if James Brown swears it was for selling fish, that may have been the case.

13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for a year?-We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably bring, without any regard to the cost price of it.

13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?- Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing the price.

13,308. You think you are entitled at Grutness to put an additional charge on the meal above what it is in Lerwick, in respect of the risk and expense of carriage?-Yes. Then the price at Lerwick, is a cash price always, while at Grutness it is a credit price.

13,309. Do you mean that at Grutness the settlement for the meal sold does not take place until the end of the year?-Yes; that is one reason why the meal is a little dearer at Grutness than it is at Lerwick, because when a man goes to Lerwick he goes with the money in his hand, and pays for the meal at the time as a rule.

13,310. But at Grutness it is usually settled for as against fish?- Yes; but very often it is supplied long before the fish are there to meet it.

13,311. Mr. Irvine has said the supplies generally begin in April, and the fish begin to be caught in April or May?-Yes; the summer fishing begins about 15th May.

13,312. The fish are not paid for either until the following spring?-No.

13,313. So that the fish are bought at a credit price, and the meal is sold at a credit price?-Yes; when the accounts are balanced.

13,314. But the fish with which the meal is really paid for are in your hands all the time?-They may or they may not be.

13,315. Are they not in your hands from the time they are caught?-Yes; but a man may have money to his credit with me, or he may be in debt when he gets the meal.

13,316. But the fish are not paid for to the fisherman at a credit price?-No.

13,317. Then why should the meal be charged a credit price any more than the fish?-Perhaps there is no good reason for it. The reason would only hold good when the man is in debt.

13,318. Are the men as often in debt as not?-No. My people are pretty free from debt. I should say that not over one in six or seven is in debt.

13,319. What is the freight of meal from Lerwick?-I think it is 11d. per boll in the steamer from Aberdeen to Lerwick; 1d. for landing at Lerwick; 4d. from Lerwick to Grutness by the packet; and 1d. for landing at Grutness.

13,320. Do you sometimes bring your meal direct from Aberdeen to Grutness by a packet?-I have once done so. I had a vessel coming up at any rate, and she took load of meal on board.

13,321. You say in your statement that you have never refused to pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money: I presume that means at settlement?-Yes, at settlement, or if wanted before.

13,322. If a man applies for money before settlement, do you consider how much is reasonably due to him at that period of the year?-If he is a good man, I would give him any sum he asked for. If he was a man I was doubtful of, I would only give him the amount he had at his credit, but he might get that full amount at whatever time he asked for it.

13,323. In these circumstances, is there any reason for the complaint of the men, that they cannot get their money until settling time?-There is none.

13,324. The settlement last year was protracted as late as April: is that usual?-It is not usually so late as April. The settlements are generally finished by March.

13,325. Can you suggest any reason why the settlements with the men in Shetland should not generally be at an earlier period than that?-It is merely a matter of convenience. The settlements could be earlier if the men so wished it; but I don't know that it would do any good although they were earlier.

13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition against other traders dealing with the inhabitants [Page 332] there?-To a certain extent there is. I don't object to people trading there if they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and that sort of thing; but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go there and buy fish.

13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes.

13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale of their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a very lax one.

13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even although the proprietor buys the cattle and prevents any one else from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far, that he gives the full value for the animal.

13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor, and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check.

13,331. How do you ascertain the current price of fish, according to which you pay your men at the end of the year?-There is an understanding among the principal fish-curers with regard to that.

13,332. Is there a consultation upon the subject?-Yes, either directly or indirectly, and they all pay the same.

13,333. Do you send your fish Scotland generally, or do you send them abroad?-I send them principally to Ireland. Our fishing here is principally for saith, which is not carried on to any great extent in any part of the country except in this parish; and that kind of fish only finds a market in Ireland.

13,334. Did you pay as high a price for saith last year as Mr. Smith and Mr. Tulloch?-No. I have not settled yet for last year.

13,335. But you did not get such a price for your saith last year as would justify you in paying so high a rate?-I did not; and I can explain the reason. These small curers send their fish away in retail lots, and realize a price for them that no large curer can get.

13,336. Have the small curers more trouble in selling?-They have much more trouble; but they do the work themselves, and they don't take that into account.

13,337. Does that not show that fishermen curing on a small scale on their own behalf might realize higher prices if they could cure equally well with the large curers?-Not if all the fishermen were on that footing. Unless they entered into some sort of co-operation, they could not get their fish sent to market at all.

13,338. Would they not be likely to sell them through travellers coming up for the purpose of buying fish?-Yes.

13,339. The returns with which you are to furnish me will apply to the year 1870, as you have not yet settled for the year 1871?-Yes.

*Mr Bruce afterwards put in the following additional statement:- I may here mention that stores such as I keep at the stations for the convenience of the fishermen do not pay as a speculation, though we could not very well carry on the business without them. For instance, the store at Grutness, some of the accounts of which you examined, would show a balance-sheet thus- Gross value of goods charged against the shop at retail prices during season 1870 £410 11 21/2 Cost value of goods at the various markets. £313 0 10 Freights on do. 28 16 4 12 tons coals at 21s. allowed to storekeeper; say fire and light 15 0 0 Wages to storekeeper-I pay £70 say for store 40 0 0 Nominal profit, say 13 14 0 £410 11 21/2

But against this nominal profit has to be placed rent of shop, and house occupied by storekeeper, incidents such as stationery, wrapping paper, twine, furniture, etc., interest on capital invested in goods, loss in retailing goods, bad debts, and loss by deterioration of goods on hand. These figures are not supposed to be exactly correct, but they are substantially so, and at all events are near enough to show that these stores, as managed by me, do not pay, and would certainly never be kept with a view to profit were they not required as a matter of convenience. In a place like Fair Isle, with a population of only 226, there is only room for one store. As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater part of their custom. Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and the only case in which I have enforced the rule, as in the case of a man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel. I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have never evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay their rents they sit rent free, and get help from their friends, and my manager has orders to see that no one starves. I may mention that I have some property of my own in Sandwick parish where the tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and they do not fish for me; but they pay good rents, and are not in arrears. I also manage a property in the parish of Cunningsburgh belonging to my father. It consists of 69 holdings, at a rental of £194, 19s. 7d. and the arrears of rent due on the property when I took the management of it in 1869 amounted to £487 10 3 Since then I have received payment of £97 9 21/2 And have written off in compromise with tenants deeply in debt, sums to the amount of 63 11 7 Thereby reducing the balance to 326 9 5 £487 10 3

These tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and none of them fish to me. I have not yet evicted any tenant, and if they go on as they are doing I may have to make no change; but should they fail to pay their rents as in times past, I must either evict the non-payers, or take the fishing into my own hands.

JOHN BRUCE, jun. SUMBURGH, SHETLAND, 1<st. Feby>. 1872.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ROBERT HENDERSON (recalled), examined.

13,340. I understand you want to make some explanation of your previous evidence?-Yes. I said that when we bought fish we paid for them when they were delivered. As a rule we do, and any party who wishes to be paid at once can be paid at once; but sometimes, when a few men are going in one boat, they wish merely to have the weight of the fish marked, and then have it squared off perhaps in a month or two or at the end of the fishing.

13,341. You are speaking now of the winter and spring fish?- Yes.

13,342. So that you have some accounts for fish?-Yes.

13,343. And these may be liquidated partly by the men taking goods?-Yes, just as they like.

13,344. In these cases, is there a ledger account with the goods on the one side and the fish on the other?-Yes, if the men choose to have it so; but it is entirely at their own option whether they are to be paid at once or whether the fish are to be put into the account.

13,345. What may be the amount of these accounts generally?- Will they be as much as £2 or £3?-Yes; sometimes £4 or £5.

13,346. In some of these cases no cash may pass at all?-As a rule, the men wish, to have the cash placed to the credit of their private accounts; but if they wish cash at once they can get it.

13,347. Will you have 20 or 30 of these accounts in a year?-No. There may be four or five accounts for crews in that way, but they are the exception. As a rule, we pay for the fish when we receive them.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, OGILVY JAMIESON, examined.

13,348. You are shopkeeper at Mr. Grierson's shop at Quendale?-I am.

13,349. Do you also act as factor or overseer on his property?- Generally I do.

13,350. Do you keep all the books connected with the fish-curing and shop business?-Yes.

13,351. How many fishermen are employed by Grierson?- Perhaps from 80 to 100 hands, men and boys.

13,352. How many do you employ in the curing?-Generally 14 or 16.

13,353. When you take on a boy as a beach boy, is he paid by a fee?-Yes.

13,354. That is settled like the fishermen's accounts at the end of the season?-Generally; but sometimes they want to know their wages before and they are told what they are.

13,355. Do you ever pay these fees as advances, or during the course of the season?-Generally, when they require anything, they get it from the shop, and the balance is paid in cash, or the whole amount is paid in cash if they have taken no advances.

13,356. I suppose a beach boy, or one employed in the fish-curing, generally begins by opening an account and taking out supplies?- Sometimes they do, and sometimes not. Some of them have not taken out more than perhaps 2s. during the whole season.

13,357. Do three-fourths of them run up accounts?-They generally do to a small extent, but not to the full amount of their wages.

13,358. What is the average fee for a boy?-It is generally 30s. for the first year, and it is advanced according as they are found to be worth it. 50s. was the highest we paid the boys this year.

13,359. Will a boy ever have 10s. or £1 to get at the end of the year?-Yes, and sometimes more. I should wish to state that we had a boy last-indeed we have had him for two years-over whom we have no control. Last year he had 25s., and in the present year he was engaged for 27s. but I paid him 30s.

13,360. I understand there are some of the boys over whom you have control?-Yes.

13,361. That is to say, they are the sons of tenants?-Yes; and it is one of the conditions of their holdings, that they have to supply boys when they have them suitable for the purpose.

13,362. That is one of the conditions, in the same way as it is a condition of their holdings, that if the tenants themselves engage in ling fishing at all, they shall fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.

13,363. Have you known any cases of boys engaged to other employers who have been required by Mr. Grierson, or by you on his behalf, to give up that engagement and come to you to work at the beach?-There has been no case of that kind, to my knowledge.

[Page 333]

13,364. Do you know James Jamieson at Berlin?-I do.

13,365. Had he a son, a boy of thirteen, employed with you lately?-Yes, last year.

13,366. Are you aware that he had previously been engaged as a servant to a neighbouring farmer, and that Mr. Grierson required him to come and work at fish-curing?-I did not know that he was engaged at all.

13,367. Who engaged him for the curing?-I did.

13,368. Did he not state to you that he was already engaged to another master?-Not that I remember of.

13,369. Do you know James Brown, Millpond?-Yes.

13,370. Is he an elderly man now?-Yes.

13,371. Is he engaged at the fishing?-No.

13,372. Do you know whether he had to pay £1 of liberty money?-He has not done so within the last year or two, to my knowledge; but I think he paid it in 1869. However, I am not quite clear about that. I know that I got notice about the liberty money, and I think either he or his son went to Lerwick to Mr. Grierson about it.

13,373. Did he pay it?-I cannot say.

13,374. Was he at that time an old man, and fishing with two or three other old men, but not actively engaged in the summer fishing?-He was not fishing at all, so far as I know.

13,375. Then why had he to pay liberty money?-I don't know. Perhaps it may have been on account of his son, but I cannot say.

13,376. Would any transaction of that kind take place with Mr. Grierson and not with you?-It might.

13,377. Do you know Charles Eunson?-Yes.

13,378. Had he to pay liberty money in 1867?-I cannot say; I have only been three years in Mr. Grierson's employ,

13,379. Is Brough on the Quendale estate?-Yes.

13,380. Do you know James Shewan, who lives on the Brough property?-Yes.

13,381. Whom did he fish for last year?-I think he cured fish for himself. He was fishing at Scatness, and I think he delivered his fish to Hay & Co.; but I am not sure.

13,382. Had he to pay £1 of liberty money at last settlement?- Yes.

13,383. Was that in January 1872?-I think it was before January; but he paid it at the settlement.

13,384. Have there been other cases of liberty money being exacted and paid in 1871 and 1872?-There has been one other case besides Shewan's.

13,385. Why did these men choose to pay the fine rather than to deliver their fish to you?-I cannot say. One man who pays it does not fish at all, and I suppose they think they get value for it, or else they would not pay it.

13,386. Who pays it and does not fish?-William Gilbertson, the Mails.

13,387. You have not got the books connected with the fishing business in your possession at present?-No; they are all in Lerwick at present, except one daybook.

13,388. I noticed an entry in one of your books this morning, of one boll meal sold on 2d June 1870 at 16s. 6d.?-Yes, that was the price at that time.

13,389. Did the price vary much during that year?-Very considerably.

13,390. What would you consider a fair average of the price for that year?-I think it was from 17s. 6d. to 22s. or 23s. per boll, so far as I remember.

13,391. Do you think 22s. or 23s. was the highest price during the year?-I think so; but I am merely speaking from recollection.

13,392. What is the price of a 2 lb. line at your shop?-2s. 3d.; 21/4 lbs. is 2s. 6d.; 13/4 lbs, 2s.; and 11/2 lbs, 1s. 9d.

13,393. How many kinds of tea do you keep?-Three kinds, which we sell at 8d., 9d., and 10d.

13,394. How many kinds of sugar?-Three kinds, which we sell at 5d., 6d., and 61/2d.

13,395. What is the price of your tobacco?-1s. and 1s. 2d. per quarter for mid and small tobacco. We sell it at 31/2d. and 4d. per ounce for single ounces and 6d. and 7d. for two ounces.

13,396. Do your men own their own boats?-Yes, entirely.

13,397. You not hire out any boats?-Not any.

13,398. Do you sell the boats to them?-No; they buy them for themselves, or Mr. Grierson buys them for them.

13,399. Do you make an advance to them for the purchase of boats?-Yes; we generally give a line as security to any person supplying boats to the men.

13,400. Does the builder obtain the payment from you?-Yes. He is paid direct by us in cash.

13,401. Do you get repayment from the fishermen by instalments?-Not by instalments; they sometimes pay it all up in one year, but sometimes when a man is in arrears it runs over a good many years before it is paid. The sum he is due for his boat is included along with the rest of his dealings.

13,402. Is it the small boats that are used at Quendale?-No; we have mostly large boats now, which cost about £20.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.

13,403. You keep the post office at Virkie near Sumburgh?-I do. I am a tailor to trade.

13,404. You are aware that the men in your neighbourhood are under an obligation to fish for the tacksman of the estate and that many of them deal at the shop at Grutness?-Yes.

13,405. I presume there is no obligation upon them to purchase their goods at that shop?-I suppose not, unless circumstances compel them to do so.

13,406. What circumstances compel them?-There are many of them who have not got cash with which to go to any other place.

13,407. Have you sometimes purchased goods at the Grutness store yourself?-I have occasionally.

13,408. Did you find the quality and the price good and reasonable?-The price was generally higher than I could purchase the goods for at any other place, and the quality was sometimes as good and sometimes not so good. About a year ago there was cotton at Grutness at 16d. a yard; but it had been purchased during the time of the American War, when the price was high, and the price was kept up still. I have some goods that were given to me to supply Mr. Bruce's fishermen with including some of that cotton, and I have never been told to reduce the price.

13,409. Were you entrusted with that cotton to sell it?-Yes. I got about £50 worth of cloth and furnishings about five years age to supply to such tenants as had not the means to go to any other place; and although the prices of cotton and wincies fluctuated since I have continued to sell at the same price. Of course most of it is gone now.

13,410. But you have been selling it at that advanced price?-Yes. The fishermen have taken it who had no other way of getting it.

13,411. Have they taken it on credit?-Yes; most of it has been given on credit. There were very few who have taken any of it except those who had no money to go to any other place.

13,412. If they had had money, would they have been able to get exactly the same article at a cheaper rate?-The cloth was pretty moderate, because, when I brought it from Grutness, Mr. Bruce asked me how it would range with the cloth Mr. Henderson had. I told him it was dearer, and he said he would take off some of the price of it, for he meant to give the fishermen the same advantage which they got in another shop; and the three pieces of cloth which I got were reduced 1s. upon each yard. In that case no one complained about the price of the cloth, only the furnishings were higher.

[Page 334]

13,413. Is there any other article with regard to the price and quality of which you can speak?-I have not dealt in Grutness for some time, because I generally had money, and I bought my goods elsewhere, where might get them cheaper. I got most of them from Mr. Henderson, and some I got from Lerwick.

13,414. Do you sometimes buy from Hay & Co.'s, shop at Dunrossness?-Yes,

13,415. Are some things cheaper there than at Grutness?-Some things are and other things are much about the same.

13,416. What things are cheaper?-Tea and sugar, and such things as these.

13,417. Is Hay & Co.'s shop nearer to you than Grutness?-Yes.

13,418. Is it nearer to most of the people than Grutness?-Yes. Grutness is rather out of the way.

13,419. Do you know anything about a meeting that was held at Grutness, some time ago?-I know there was a meeting of fishermen held at the schoolhouse but I was not there. After the meeting several of the men came to my house on their way home, and spoke about what had taken place. They were generally dissatisfied with the way in which the meeting had been conducted.

13,420. What was the occasion of the meeting?-It was in order that they might lay their grievances before the commissioner at Lerwick. I believe one of the men actually went there.

13,421. Did you understand that the others were unwilling or afraid to go?-I understood, from what they said, that they were unwilling, for fear of offending their masters. They told me that at the time.

13,422. What did they say?-They accused some of their number of cowardice. Some were frightened for one thing, and some for another.

13,423. What were they afraid of?-Just of offending their masters; that was their principal idea. They were afraid they might be warned.

13,424. What was the complaint they had to make?-I believe their principal complaint was about the bondage which they are under.

13,425. Do you think they have not so much to say about being settled with only once a year?-Of course that was discussed too and they thought it was not right. They thought the settlement was made too late in the year. That was one of their objections; but the principal thing was, that they wished their liberty to sell their produce to any person who would pay the best price for it.

13,426. Have you lived in Dunrossness all your life?-I have been in Dunrossness all my life except twelve years, when I was south.

13,427. Was your father a farmer or crofter and fisherman in Dunrossness?-Yes.

13,428. Before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands, I believe, the tenants were free?-No; the fishermen were bound some forty-three years ago. My father held a croft then on the estate of Brough, of which Mrs. Sinclair was proprietor, and she bound him over to fish for Mr. Bruce at that time, although she did not take the fishing herself. That fishing came to be the most ruinous concern that ever happened to my family, because it brought my father into debt that he might otherwise have been clear of.

13,429. How did it bring him into debt?-Because the fish were not managed properly, and of course they came to be sold as bad fish, and the men got nothing for them, or next to nothing. I heard my father say that they got 3s. 11d. for dry fish in the last year of the fishing, and they had to pay for salt and cure out of that.

13,430. Could a free man, at that time have got more?-A free man was getting from £9 to £10 a ton; and things came to such a pass that the people got desperate. There were poor years at the same time, and the men applied to their landlord, and got their liberty on condition of paying 15s. a head of liberty money. That was kept on until a few years ago, and then it was put into the rent again.

13,431. But it has only been since 1860 that the men have been bound again to fish in this district for their landlord; they were free before that time?-Yes, they were free for about twenty years. Of course I have always been a free man, because I have not been a fisherman.

13,432. Have you known many men in your district being warned in consequence of fishing for others than their landlord?-I have not known many.

13,433. Have you known men who would have fished for others if they had not been afraid of being warned?-I suppose they would have preferred that but warning comes to be a very serious thing here. In the south a man can shift from town to town and get employment: but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there, either for love or money.

13,434. Do you know of any case where compulsion has been used to oblige any of the men to deal at any of the stores in the district?-I cannot say that I have.

13,435. Do the men never get a hint to that effect?-No; but I suppose they are obliged to go through necessity, because they have no money with which to go anywhere else.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GEORGE M'LACHLAN, examined.

13,436. Are you the principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse?-I am.

13,437. Where do you get the supplies for your house?-I get most of them from Aberdeen and Granton.

13,438. Do you purchase them yourself?-Yes.

13,439. They are not supplied by the Commissioners?-no.

13,440. Have you got any supplies at the neighbouring shops?-I have got very little from Grutness.

13,441. Have you got any from Hay & Co.'s shop, from Quendale?-No. I opened an account with Mr. Henderson after I came; but I have only been here since 1st. July.

13,442. Have you found Mr. Henderson's goods reasonable in price?-Quite reasonable in price, and good in quality.

13,443. How far is his shop from you?-About six or six and a half miles.

13,444. How far is Grutness from you?-About one and a quarter mile, or a little more.

13,445. How far is Hay & Co.'s shop?-About two and a quarter miles.

13,446. How far is Quendale from you?-I think about four miles.

13,447. Why do you go so far as Mr Henderson's or Aberdeen, or Granton for your supplies?-I opened an account at Mr Henderson's shop, because I could get anything there that I wished, and because Mr. Henderson was highly recommended to me before I came to the country at all.

13,448. Have you found the supplies at Grutness to be expensive?-I never bought much there.

13,449. Did you find that that shop was understood in the neighbourhood to be an expensive one?-I have heard people say so.

13,450. Was that the reason why you did not get your goods there?-Not particularly. One reason was because it was dear, and another reason was that they cannot supply us with general articles such as we want. I thought it was much better to open an account with man who was reasonable in his charges, or who at least was recommended to me as such, and a man who could supply me with anything I wanted.

13,451. What have you bought at Grutness or at the other shops?- Sometimes I have bought small things such as tobacco, but my wife has got most of the things we required.

13,452. Have you bought any tobacco at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes. I found it to be of ordinary quality. I think [Page 335] the price was 4s. 4d. per lb., as far as I can recollect but I am not quite sure, because I never bought much there. I could have got tobacco of about the same quality at Mr. Henderson's for 3s. 6d. I now produce a piece of Mr. Henderson's very good tobacco.,

13,453. Have you bought tobacco at Grutness also?-Only very little. I don't like the sort of tobacco that is kept there. There are two kinds kept at Grutness: but the best quality is too small in twist for smoking, and I don't care about teasing it up.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, LAWRENCE GARRIOCK, examined.

13,454. Are you a fisherman at Scatness?-I am.

13,455. Are you bound to fish for anybody?-No. I have always been at liberty. I am on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, and I generally fish for Hay & Co.

13,456. They are the factors on the estate?-Yes.

13,457. Do you deal at their shop?-Yes, occasionally, when I like.

13,458. Do you pay your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

13,459. Does he come down to settle at Dunrossness every year?- Yes. He settles in a room above the shop at Laighness.

13,460. Do you go through the shop to it?-Yes.

13,461. Have you generally money to receive at settlement?-I have had a little to receive for some years; but I run an account at the shop, and I am almost always in debt.

13,462. If you have got money to receive, is it paid to you in cash?-Yes. I am paid in cash what is due.

13,463. If there is anything due to you, do they ask you, as you come through the shop, if you want any goods?-No, that is left to my own choice.

13,464. But it would be quite fair to ask?-Yes, but they don't do it.

13,465. Are you satisfied with the quality of the goods you get there?-Yes. I never had any reason to complain about the quality, and the price is something similar to what I could get them for at other places.

13,466. At Grutness, for instance?-I never had much dealings there. It lies rather out of my way.

13,467. Is Hay & Co.'s shop the most convenient shop for you?- Yes.

13,468. Have you ever dealt at Gavin Henderson's shop?-Yes, I have tried it too.

13,469. Are not his goods cheaper than Hay & Co.'s?-No; they are much about the same. I could not say there was much difference. I have bought meal, cottons, and tobacco from him, land the difference in price was not worth mentioning.

13,470. Do you keep a pass-book at Hay & Co.'s?-No. I just trust to those who are serving me.

13,471. Were you at a meeting of fishermen held at Scatness a few weeks ago?-I was.

13,472. What was the object of the meeting?-I could scarcely say. The men assembled on purpose to give you (the Commissioner) some information about how they were situated, as you had come to Shetland to inquire into the matter; but when they were met together, they appeared to be frightened to say anything at all. Therefore the meeting was broken up, and every man went home.

13,473. How did it appear that they were frightened?-By the way in which they behaved at the meeting. There was a paper drawn up, and the men were to sign their names to it, but none of them would sign their names except about a dozen or so. The rest appeared to be very much frightened, and I told them so.

13,474. What were they frightened of?-They did not say, at least I did not hear them; but it was supposed they were frightened for the proprietor giving them their warning.

13,475. If they did not say it, how did you know they were frightened for that?-Because none of them would sign their names to the paper which was to be sent to you.

13,476. They might not have had any grievance all?-They might not; but all the men who were present wished to be at liberty to fish, and they were frightened to sign the paper saying that they wanted that. At least they appeared to be so, from not putting down their names.

13,477. Did not some of the men who were present come to Lerwick?-Yes. One man went, and some others went when they were summoned.

13,478. How did you happen to be at the meeting when you were not a bound man?-I went to see whether anything would be said about the right of the landlord to take one-third of the whales which are driven ashore. Occasionally whales are driven in from the sea; and I have seen us commencing at six o'clock on summer morning and working till late in the afternoon, or perhaps six at night, in getting them secured. Then, when the whales were flinched, the proprietor came in and took away one-third of the proceeds, and we were rather dissatisfied about that.

13,479. Do you think you ought to have got the whole?-Yes.

13,480. Did you not flinch the whales upon his shore?-Yes, but below high-water mark.

13,481. Has it not been always the custom in Shetland that the proprietor gets one-third of the blubber?-It has been so all my time.

13,482. Why do you submit that if it is not right?-The way we submit to it is because they have told us that if we carried off all the blubber they would raise the rent of the land we were labouring.

13,483. Who has told you that?-It has been said all my time.

13,484. Has any proprietor ever told you that?-There are men who have asked it and striven for it in my time. I have never done it myself, although I was very much dissatisfied about it: but the poor men are frightened to presume any further, for fear of the land being further burdened upon them, and it is so much burdened just now that we can scarcely pay for it.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ARTHUR IRVINE, examined.

13,485. Are you a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate?-I am.

13,486. You have handed in to me a document signed by 28 fishermen on the Quendale property, stating that 'We, the undersigned, hereby certify that we have been honourably dealt with by Andrew J. Grierson, Esq. of Quendale, our present landlord and fish-merchant; and it is our desire to continue with him as our fish-merchant, and resolve that no other fish-curer in Shetland will get our fish until he refuses to take them?'-Yes.

13,487. How long have you fished for Mr. Grierson?-About 13 years.

13,488. Have you always sold your fish to him?-Yes.

13,489. And have you always got a fair price for them?-I have got the currency of the country.

13,490. Could you have got a higher price anywhere else in the district?-Not in our district, that I know of.

13,491. How far do you live from the place where the fish are delivered?-I live close to it. The curing place is about 50 yards from my house.

13,492. Who wrote this document?-I did.

13,493. When?-Yesterday.

13,494. Did anybody suggest to you to do so?-No. It was done at my own option.

13,495. Did anybody speak to you about it?-No.

13,496. Did you just take it into your own head?-Yes, at six o'clock last night.

[Page 336]

13,497. Did you get all these men to sign it last night?-Some last night, and some this morning on my way here.

13,498. Are they all neighbours of yours, quite close to Quendale?-Yes.

13,499. Were they all quite willing to sign it?-Yes; and more would have signed it if they had been asked.

13,500. You think Mr. Grierson is a very good landlord?-Yes; and we do not want to fish to any other. If there is any one better than him we don't know it.

13,501. Do you think you would not make anything more of it by curing your own fish and selling them to any other merchant?- We cannot cure the fish ourselves on that station, because there is no convenience except for one. There is room for all the boats, but only room for one man. The beaching station cannot be divided. It is not like down about Scatness, where there are so many different places for landing.

13,502. Are you a skipper in one of Mr. Grierson's boats?-Yes, of a six-oared boat.

13,503. Do you ever act as a factor to him?-No.

13,504. Do you receive his fish?-No.

13,505. Do you not hold any employment under Mr. Grierson?- No. I have a bit of ground from him, and I act in looking after his peat-mosses, but that is all the employment I have.

13,506. Do you get a small salary for that?-Yes.

13,507. Do you get all your goods at the Quendale shop?-Yes.

13,508. Do you get paid in money at the end of the year?-Yes; any one who has money to get, has it paid to him at that time.

13,509. Have you always something to receive?-No, some years I have something, and some years not.

13,510. Had you some cash to get last year?-No.

13,511. Were you behind the year before also?-I was not behind for that year, but I had been behind before.

13,512. And there has been a balance against you for good number of years?-Yes, because Mr. Grierson gave me an advance when I first took the land from him.

13,513. Do you think that if you were not bound to fish for Mr. Grierson your rent would be raised?-We think so, but perhaps we my be wrong.

13,514. Has anybody suggested to you that your rents might be raised if you were not going to fish to Mr. Grierson?-No, that is only our own imagination.

13,515. Has Mr. Grierson ever said so?-Not to my knowledge.

13,516. Did you ever hear that he had said so?-No, I never heard that.

13,517. Do you think it would be a reasonable thing for him to raise your rents if you were not fishing for him?-I cannot say; I think our rents are high enough as it is.

13,518. But you are afraid that your rents might be raised, and perhaps that may be the reason for some you having signed that paper?-It may have been, but I cannot say.

13,519. Are the goods which you get at Quendale store of good quality and cheap enough?-They are as cheap as we can get anywhere.

13,520. Have you dealt much anywhere else?-No; I have got most of my goods there.

13,521. Do you know anything about Gavin Henderson's goods?- I know a little about them, and I think they are very much the same as at the Quendale store, both as to price and quality.

13,522. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

13,523. Is there any other person present who wishes to make any statement?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 1872

<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.

JAMES POTTINGER, examined.

13,524. Are you a fisherman residing in Burra?-Yes. I live with my father, who is a tenant there.

13,525 I understand you wish to make some statement; what is it about?-It is about the way in which I have been served in Burra. My father and I had to spend upwards of £12 on repairs on the house where we lived about 1865; and in January 1866, when I was in Messrs Hay's employment, they asked me for extra for peat leave, because we put a small chimney in the bedroom end of our house. I refused to pay it, but when Mr. Irvine settled with me he paid me all except the pound, which he kept.

13,526. What employment were you in then?-I had been at Liverpool with a cargo. I was not at the fishing at the time; I was settling up for my voyage to Liverpool at the time when the pound was taken off.

13,527. Had you got any supplies during that winter from Hay & Co.?-I did not have much.

13,528. Had you been in their employment the summer previous?-No; I had been in Messrs Harrison & Son's employment at the Faroe fishing. When Mr. Irvine would not give me the pound I said I would not sign the books, and I have not signed my account yet. The thing ran on from then until last year, when my father was charged £4 for the extra peat leave. He came back to Burra and asked me what he should do, and then he went in again to Lerwick and paid it. Then, this year, I went in to Mr. Irvine and asked him if he was not to take off the pound, and he said he would never take it off; and when my father settled this year again he had to pay it.

13,529. Then that is a charge made upon your father and not upon you?-Yes.

13,530 Is your father the tenant?-He is, but I went in and paid half of the rent and got a receipt for that half; but the pound was not included in it.

13,531. Why was it not charged upon you?-Because he gripped my father for me.

13,532. But why was it not charged upon you first?-Mr. Irvine told me that we were burning two fires in the house, and that I would have to pay that, but I would not do it

13,533. Had you built an addition to the house when you were married?-I was at the expense of building it. It was a new end to the house that was built then.

13,534. Is it a rule that all who live on the island and burn a fire have to pay peat leave?-Every house has the same privilege that I have, but none of them pay it except myself.

13,535. How do you mean that they have the privilege?-They have a small chimney in the bedroom, the other apartment in the house, the same as I have.

13,536. Why do you come to me to complain of that?-I did not think it would do any good, but I thought I would let you know that such a thing was done, because I think it is unfair.

13,537. Has it anything to do with the fishing?-No.

13,538. Were you ever in Messrs. Hay's employment at the fishing?-I was three years in their vessels as a lad, but that is twelve years ago. I have been twelve years in Messrs. Harrison's employment.

[Page 337]

13,539. Did you leave Messrs. Hay and go to Messrs. Harrison?- Yes.

13,540. Did Messrs. Hay object to one of their tenant's sons leaving their employment and going to fish in the smack of another curer?-No.

13,541. Have you been asked to go in Messrs. Hay's smacks since?-Yes. Mr. Irvine asked me to go in their vessels both in 1866 and 1867, in both of which years I had vessels from them in the winter time, but I told Mr. Irvine that I would not leave the vessel or the employ I was in and go with them.

13,542. Was it before or after you were charged that sum for peat leave that you were asked to go?-It was in the same year. 1866 was the first time I had to pay £1 of peat leave.

13,543. But you said you were charged with that in January 1866; was it before or after January 1866 that Mr. Irvine asked you to go in his Faroe vessel?-It was both before and after I went to Liverpool for Messrs. Hay in the 'North Sea Queen.'

13,544. Was it some time after you came back from Liverpool that you were settled with?-No; it was in the same week or the week after.

13,545. Had you seen Mr. Irvine after you came back and before you settled with him?-Yes.

13,546. Was it when you first came back that he asked you to go to Faroe in the following season?-It was at the time when I settled, and also when I joined the vessel.

13,547. Do you think if you had not refused to go in one of Messrs. Hay's vessels to the Faroe fishing you would have been charged with peat leave?-I don't know about that.

13,548. Is the charge for peats just so much for each fire that is burned?-We don't know; it is just included in the rent.

13,549. Is it not charged separately from the rent?-No; it is all put together, so far as I know; it is all called land-rent.

13,550. Have you any note of your settlement with Mr. Irvine in 1866?-No. I don't think I got any receipt then; but I got a receipt yesterday when I paid the half-year's rent.

13,551. I suppose the people in Burra were quite at liberty to go to the Faroe fishing with any person they pleased during the last twelve years?-No, some of them were not at liberty, but I was at liberty because I had charge of a vessel. A single man who was not master of a vessel did not have liberty.

13,552. How do you know that?-Because I have been told of tenants who had to pay £1 in consequence of their sons going to the Faroe fishing. Andrew Laurenson paid £1 for going to Faroe in Messrs. Harrison's employ, and he has not got it back. I don't know any one else who has not got the money back except him; but there may be others who had to pay it, and who have not got it back.

13,553. Were a number of the young men obliged to go to the fishing in Hay & Co.'s vessels?-A good few of them went in their vessels, and some of them left and went in the vessels of other owners.

13,554. But did you know of any man leaving another owner's vessel in which he was engaged, and going in one of Hay & Co.'s because they required him to do so?-No; I only know that money was paid for that.

13,555. Do you understand that if you had not been a master, but had been merely an ordinary seaman, you would have been obliged to go in Messrs. Hay's vessels?-So far as I know, I would.

13,556. Would you have been bound to do so if they had offered you as good a vessel as master as the one you were going in?-I don't think it; I never heard anything about that. I wish to say that I could get turf from another island which would not cost me over one-fourth of the pound which Hay & Co. charged me for peat leave. My father asked Mr. Irvine yesterday whether, if I got the turf in that way, he would take the pound off me, and he said he would not.

13,557. What kind of agreement do you sign with Harrison & Co. when you go to the Faroe fishing?-It is a written agreement.

13,558. I suppose the fishermen in the Faroe fishing regard themselves as partners with the owners of the ship to the extent of one half?-Yes, that is what we sign for.

13,559. The owners of the ship are always the curers that you deliver the fish to?-Yes.

13,560. And I suppose the owners employ men as curers?-Yes.

13,561. The payment which the fishermen get at the end of the year will depend a good deal upon the way in which the fish are cured, because, if they are ill cured, the fishermen will receive less money?-Yes.

13,562. Or if the fish are ill sold the fishermen will also suffer?- Yes.

13,563. Therefore the fishermen have as much interest in the curing and sale of the fish as the owner has?-Yes.

13,564. But I suppose you leave the management of these matters in the hands of the owners?-Yes; the owners have all the management.

13,565. Is it understood in the Faroe fishing that you get one half of the actual returns from the fishing?-They tell us so.

13,566. It is not according to any current price that you get it, but it is one half of the actual price at which the fish are sold which you are to get?-Yes.

13,567. And you trust entirely to the owners to obtain that price, and to account to you for one half of that, under certain deductions?-Yes.

13,568. Do you know what deductions are allowed before the proceeds of the fish are divided?-I cannot tell; I have seen it all in the agreement, but I cannot recollect what it is just now. It is every man's wish to see a bill of sale for their fish at settling time, but such a thing has never been asked for. I have never asked for it so long as I have gone to the fishing.

13,569. You think you ought to see the bill of sale?-Yes; and that is the opinion of all the fishermen, so far as I know.

13,570. Do the men in Harrison & Son's employment undertake to be ready to join the vessel for putting in salt, bending sails, and so forth, at a certain time before the vessel leaves?-Yes, and that is usually done.

13,571. How long are you bound to remain in the vessel?-Until about 13th August.

13,572. On board the vessel, what do you do with the fish when you catch them?-We bleed them, and wash and split them, and salt them in the hold, and generally prepare them so as to fetch the best market.

13,573. The deductions which are charged before dividing the fish are the expenses of curing and the price of the salt?-Yes. They put the salt and curing altogether, and charge £2, 10s. for that.

13,574. They do not charge the actual cost, but make a slump charge for the whole work?-Yes.

13,575. There is also an allowance deducted of 10s. per ton to the master, and 2s. 6d. to the mate?-Yes.

13,576. And the agreement which you sign provides for a certain quantity of bread for each man?-Yes, 8 lbs. of bread per week; and there is an allowance of 9d. for score money. The score money is paid before the division is made, so that one half is paid by the owners and one half by the men themselves.

13,577. Is it also part of the bargain, that the fishermen are liable for breaking lines or spoiling any part of the vessel?-Yes.

13,578. On returning you put the vessel into dock and unbend the sails?-Yes.

13,579. There is a stipulation in the agreement against smuggling, is there not?-Yes.

13,580. Is there any smuggling carried on at Faroe-Not a great deal now.

13,581. Is there any arrangement about going farther north than Faroe if required?-Yes; if the master thinks it prudent to go to Iceland or elsewhere before a certain time, the men are taken bound to go, and in that case they are paid by wages, which are fixed in the agreement. They begin to run from the 13th or [Page 338] the middle of August, and continue till 1st October. But if we are going to Iceland during the summer, the men run their share of the fishing the same as they do at Faroe.

13,582. It is only for a late voyage to Iceland that they get wages?-Yes.

13,583. Do you often go upon these late voyages?-I have done so for the last few years.

13,584. Are the men bound to go upon them?-They are bound to go if the master or owners require them; but there are plenty of men to be got at that period of the year, so that if any man wants his liberty then he can get it.

13,585. You can fill up your crew from other boats which are not going upon these late voyages?-Yes.

13,586. Does the Iceland voyage commence from Foroe, or do you come to from Lerwick first?-We come back to Lerwick.

13,587. There is a scale of victualling for that voyage contained in the agreement?-Yes.

13,588. The men don't provide their own food?-No; it is provided by the owners. The men provide nothing.

13,589. There is a less supply of bread on the Iceland voyage than on the other voyage, is there not?-Very little less. They have 8 lbs. per week in the summer time, and 7 lbs. at Iceland.

13,590. Do you always get ample supplies according to your agreement?-Yes.

13,591. Do you also get your small stores and outfits from the owner's shop?-Yes. We always go to his shop for what we want at leaving.

13,592. Do you also run an account with Messrs. Harrison for supplies to your family during your absence?-Perhaps some of the men do that, but I don't do it. I pay the money for what I want, and get it where it can be got best.

13,593. Do you run no account at all?-Not much. I sometimes run an account for a little with Messrs. Harrison when I want anything,-perhaps in the year, and that is settled at settling time.

13,594. But most of your supplies you get elsewhere-at Scalloway or Lerwick?-Yes.

13,595. Do all the men in your vessel keep accounts at Harrison & Son's, and get their supplies there?-Yes.

13,596. You purchase your own lines and hooks for Faroe?-Yes. A lead of lines for each man will cost about 11s.

13,597. Is that the only fishing expense that you have?-Yes; but perhaps we may have two leads of lines in one summer.

13,598. Do you always purchase them from the owners?-Yes; or they are put on board the vessel, and the men take them as they require them. The master keeps an account of that.

13,599. How do you do on the Iceland voyage for these fishing supplies?-The men pay hire for their lines on the Iceland voyage.

13,600. Then the lines in that case are at the owners risk?-Yes.

13,601. If they are lost, do the owners bear the loss?-The men have to pay for them if they lose them, and if they return them they only pay hire for them.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, recalled.

13,602. You have handed in an agreement for the year 1871 with the crew of the 'Royal Tar?'-Yes.

13,603. Is that the form that is always used by Mr. Leask in agreements for the Faroe fishing?-Perhaps a word or two may vary, but that is the substance of the agreement. It is in this form:

'Royal Tar.' 'We, the undersigned, hereby agree to prosecute the cod and other fishings ,in the said vessel wherever required by the master or owner during the fishing season of 1871, that is, from the time we are requested to join the vessel until the end of August if required, it being understood that one half of the net proceeds of the fishing belong to the owner of the vessel, and the other half to be divided among the crew in the proportions set opposite their respective names; the owner supplying the crew with 1 lb. of bread per man per day.' Then follow the men's names and residences, and their ages, the last ship in which they were employed, their capacity as master, mate, second mate, sharesman, or half, or three-quarter sharesman, as the case may be. In the next column there is given the rate per ton of premium or extra above the share, being 9s. in this case to the master, 3s. 6d. to the mate, and 1s. to the second mate. Then follows the rate of score money to each man, being in this case 6d. throughout. There is also a column for observations, in which it is noted opposite the names of three men, and as much as he is worth; how is that fixed?-It is left to the discretion of the principal men of the vessel.

13,604. Is anything else of importance ever entered in the column for observations?-If anything occurs, of course it will be entered. I may mention that the time when the men generally have to join the ship is about the middle of March. That time is not fixed by the agreement; it is merely said that they have to join when they are requested.

13,605. What do you do about an Iceland voyage?-The Iceland voyage generally commences about the middle of August, after the Faroe voyage is over. The agreement does not refer to that.

13,606. Do they make a separate agreement for an Iceland voyage, the men being paid by wages?-Yes.

13,607. I understand you have something to add to your previous evidence?-Yes. When my examination ceased previously, I think I was speaking about the work-people, and I have now brought one of the time-books to show the proportion of money and of goods received by each. [Produces book.]

13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871 at Sound beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the amount of their accounts for the week.

13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the superintendent.

13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week, and 2s. is the cash he has to get.

13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, showing the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.

13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week, but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.

13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.

13,614. Is that not a sufficient balance for the whole?-I daresay it comes to the same thing as a sufficient balance, only the account is not ruled off.

13,615. Is it done in pencil?-It is done in ink, but it is not ruled off in lines; it is not added up.

13,616. But there is an addition made in the inner column in ink: how is that done?-It is just like any ordinary account, with double money columns. The wages are credited; then the goods stand against them, and the balance is charged, so that the one squares the other.

13,617. Is that done each week?-Yes.

13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?- Always.

13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the work-people.

13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this- [showing]-is the account, a fair average of a [Page 339] week throughout the season?-I think it will be about a fair average.

13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned; and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week, the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.

13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes, but in others you will find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was paid in cash.

13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of twenty-seven people employed altogether?-Yes.

13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was due, and £1, 1s. 6d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d. was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1, 4s. 5d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last week which appears in the book £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1, 2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed then also?-Yes; people, of course, require the same amount of provisions, whether they earn much or little, the amount of their balance in cash being less where the work has been less.

13,625. In the Faroe fishing formerly-I am not speaking of Mr. Leask's business only, but of your general knowledge of the country-was it the case that tenants were held under an obligation to fish for particular persons, just as they now are in some places in the ling fishing?-I am not aware of any tenants having been compelled or bound to fish to their proprietor in the Faroe fishing, either now or formerly.

13,626. When was the Faroe fishing introduced into Shetland?-I think about 1851 or 1852.

13,627. Have you known cases in which proprietors or tacksmen attempted to get their ships manned from their estates, not by compulsion, but by persuasion or influence?-I am not aware of any compulsion having been used at all.

13,628. When the Faroe fishing was first introduced, was it not the case that a merchant's smacks were manned for the most part from lands of which he was proprietor or tacksman?-I believe that is quite true, because when a merchant had tenants he invariably got the preference from them; but they were not bound to go to the fishing for him.

13,629. There was not such a demand for places on board Faroe vessels at that time as there is now?-Nothing like it.

13,630. Now the service has become more popular?-Yes; and the number of the ships has increased considerably, so that the number of men required is far greater.

13,631. Is there always an ample supply of men for that fishing?- Not always.

13,632. When men fall short, what means do you adopt to increase the supply? Have you to canvas for men, or do you raise your terms, or what is done?-There is very little difference in the terms. Men have been very scarce this season in consequence of the bad fishing last year, but we have not altered the terms. I remember one year we had to offer wages as an inducement to the men to ship. In 1861 there was a bad fishing, and in 1862 we had to guarantee them £1, 10s. a month of wages; but I don't think fishermen in general like wages.

13,633. Have you ever had recourse to any other means except persuasion to fill up your vessels not except persuasion; but we have not been at a great loss for men. We have generally had as many as we required, until this season. I don't think we will be able to get as many as we require this season, because of the bad fishing last year.

13,634. I suppose the great bulk of the business in Mr. Leask's shop passes through accounts with fishermen and others?-Yes, the great bulk of it.

13,635. When a man pays in cash for the goods he buys, does he get a discount?-No. We price the goods at the very lowest at the commencement, and we don't alter the prices.

13,636. There are not two prices, according as the man pays in cash or takes it out in his account?-No, it is all the same price.

13,637. Then a man has no advantage in paying cash?-None whatever.

13,638. And he is not expected to pay in cash?-Not if he be employed by Mr. Leask. Of course we sell a great quantity of goods for cash to persons whom we don't employ, both in the provision shop and also in the draper.

13,639. In addition to the fish which are delivered in a wet state at your stations, do you purchase dry fish?-Mr. Leask has been in the habit of purchasing ling for a firm in Dublin for many years. He also buys cod in a dry state occasionally.

13,640. Last year, I understand, you bought all the Greenbank fish?-Yes, all the Greenbank ling, not the other.

13,641. And also some from Mossbank?-Yes.

13,642. Did you also buy dry fish from Thomas Williamson, Seafield?-Yes.

13,643. Do you supply Pole, Hoseason, & Co. with goods as wholesale merchants?-No.

13,644. Then these fish would be settled for by cash or bills?- Yes; by cash at three months from the date of shipment.

13,645. Were these ling paid for at the current price-Yes, at £23 per ton, free on board at Mossbank or Cullivoe, the port of shipment.

13,646. The men, I understand, are paid according to the current price of dry fish at the end of the season?-Yes. They get all the advantage that the curer can afford to give them. The price is not fixed at the commencement, and I think it is much better not.

13,647. What was the current price at the end of last season?- £23.

13,648. Is that calculated to afford 8s. per cwt. for green fish?- Yes. In the previous year the price was, I think, £21 for dry fish, and the price allowed for green fish was 7s. 3d. for ling. Of course tusk and cod were much less.

13,649. How would a transaction such as you have mentioned be taken into account in ascertaining the current price at the end of the season? Would you stand in the position towards the curers of a wholesale purchaser?-Exactly.

13,650. Do you think a number of small sales in the course of a season may be able to get a higher price than a large curer who sells all in a lump all the end of the year?-At rare times he may sell a small parcel for a larger price; but generally, I think, the small curers get a less price than we do at the end of the season.

13,651. Would you be surprised to hear that some small curers were able to pay their fishermen much higher prices for ling and all other fish than the larger curers, and that they have done so, in point of fact, for some years back?-Such a thing is quite possible. They may have got more for their fish when dry.

13,652. How would you account for that?-I cannot account for it; it may have happened by accident.

13,653. Do they require less remuneration for their trouble?-No.

13,654. Or does selling in small parcels enable them to get a higher price?-Sometimes it may.

13,655. Do you think they may sell to retail dealers at once, and thus get the advantage of the retail price?-Perhaps they may sell a small parcel at once at a higher price; but, as a rule, I don't think they do. I think a large parcel generally sells best.

13,656. Is not a large parcel sold to parties who themselves supply retail dealers?-Yes.

13,657. But a small dealer, by taking a little more trouble, may possibly sell direct to the retail merchant himself, so that he secures his profit without the intervention of another dealer?-He may.

[Page 340]

13,658. Is that the way in, which you account for him getting a higher price?-That is the only way in which I can account for it.

13,659. The small curers get not only the curer's profit, but they also get the wholesale fish-dealer's profit at times, by selling direct to the retail dealer. Do you think that is a reasonable explanation of the matter?-I think so. It is the only way in which I can account for it, because I know that the large curers pay the utmost they can afford to the men.

13,660. Do you supply Thomas Williamson, Seafield, with goods?-Yes.

13,661. Are these set in the account against the fish which you buy from him?-Yes.

13,662. And that account is settled from time to time?-Yes.

13,663. Is that the only security which Mr. Leask has for his supplies to Williamson?-Yes; in fact he has no security at all until he gets the fish.

13,664. I suppose Mr. Williamson's is a case of man starting business without much capital?-I think so.

13,665. Is Mr. Leask his security with the Commercial Bank?-I know that he became answerable either for an account or for the value of boats, or perhaps for both; but I could not say what he may have done with regard to the Commercial Bank.

13,666. Are you aware that Williamson obtained letter from Mrs. Budge's agent requiring the fishermen on Seafield to fish for him?-I am not aware of that; I never heard of it before.

13,667. You showed me before the correspondence which had taken place between Mr. Leask and Mr. William Jack Williamson. In a letter dated 7th December 1869 Mr. Leask stated that he had directed the fishermen to fish to him (that is, Williamson), and that Williamson had become liable to him (Mr. Leask) for the rents as James Johnston had done: had he done so?-I suppose Mr. Leask simply recommended them to fish for Williamson; he did not direct them.

13,668. But the word used in the letter is 'directed?'-That simply means recommended. Mr. Leask never directed them to fish for Williamson, or to fish at all. They might have gone to the ends of the earth, to the south, or elsewhere, for anything he cared; but when they did fish, I suppose he wished them to fish for Williamson.

13,669. Probably that recommendation would be taken into account in fixing the rent to be paid for Williamson's premises at Ulsta?-It was not. The rent has never been reduced on account of that.

13,670. But it would not be reduced; it would rather be raised, because that would increase the value?-There was no such understanding at all. I deny most positively that Williamson's rent was increased in consequence of the tenants being allowed to fish for him.

13,671. Was Williamson on the property when Mr. Leask bought it?-Yes. Mr. Leask has been at very great expense on Williamson's property, repairing houses, and one thing and another, and very likely he would have raised the rent in consequence of that. I think he paid about £20 one year for improvements, and there were other improvements carried through which cost a great deal of money; and I consider that Mr. Leask was entitled to a percentage upon that.

13,672. Did he get a rise of rent?-I don't know that he did. I am only saying that if he did get it he was entitled to it.

13,673. But is it not reasonable to suppose that man can pay a higher rent for a piece of ground if the fishermen in the district are under an obligation to deliver their fish to him?-He ought certainly to pay more for a monopoly; there is no doubt about that.

13,674. Do you not know whether the rent was altered after Mr. Leask bought the property?-I believe the rents in general were raised a little,-not the whole of them, but a great many of them,-because Mr. Leask has been at a great deal of expense in building new houses, and otherwise.

13,675. Have you any doubt at all that the fact that the fishermen were fishing for Mr. Williamson and Mr. Johnston was taken into account in fixing the amount of their rents?-It had nothing whatever to do with the fixing of the rents.

13,676. Was it merely as a favour to the merchant who occupied the premises that the tenants were directed to fish to him?-Quite so. It was merely a favour to recommend the tenants to fish for him.

13,677. That was no favour to the fishermen, however?-I don't think it was, but it did them no injustice, because I have no doubt Williamson would have paid them the same price as other people.

13,678. Did Williamson become liable to Mr. Leask then for the rents of the fishermen?-No, never. Williamson never became liable for anything but the balance in his hands.

13,679. Mr. Leask's letter states that he had directed the fishermen to fish to him, and that Williamson had become liable to him for the rents, and he complains also that Williamson had not fulfilled that obligation: had he not become liable?-He may have talked about doing so, but he never did so.

13,680. Did he promise to become liable?-He may have promised to become liable, but to the best of my knowledge, he never did so.

13,681. Is it not a very usual, indeed almost a universal, arrangement in Shetland, that some of the fishermen's rents are paid to the proprietor by the fish-merchant to whom his tenants fish?-Yes; I believe that is quite common.

13,682. Is it not very often done by debiting the fishermen with the amount of the rent in the fish-merchant's books, and the fish-merchant handing a cheque to the proprietor for the slump sum of the rents due by his fishermen?-Yes, that is quite common.

13,683. Is it not almost universal?-I believe it is, but in this case it was not done. Williamson simply paid the balance in his hands which was due to the fishermen. When the balance could not pay for the rent, of course Williamson did not make it up.

13,684. He did not pay any rents for fishermen who were not able to pay for themselves?-No.

13,685. But James Johnston had done so, and fulfilled his obligation?-In one or two cases, I believe, Johnston did so. I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was some understanding of that sort.

13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter.

13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?- No; he pays no rents for the men whatever.

13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know, that that is done.

13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor, of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr. Leask's hands to meet it.

13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is given.

13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least they are not uncommon.

13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes.

13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very few.

13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don't remember any order of that kind being given, except one.

[Page 341]

13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton's report, in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have been discharged within about one month or less from the date of their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the 'Esquimaux' in May 1870, and to the crew of the 'Polynia' from Davis Straits in November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19 men, who were discharged within less than a month.

13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more.

13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I don't remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves. Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't believe it.

13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.

13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.

13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of the families?-Yes.

13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; but I don't consider that to be truck at all.

13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the value of the man's fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.

13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.

13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.

13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but goods?-That is their own fault.

13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.

13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think there is any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a rule.

13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have.

13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such advances when they require them?-Of course I don't deny that; but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short.

13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.

13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a better position?-Yes.

13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is selling his butter and milk and cattle.

13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.

13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes; but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to whom he sells his fish.

13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.

13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or almost without capital?-If he gets assistance he may, but it is not possible to do it without assistance. No one can carry on business to any extent without capital.

13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the extent of his business.

13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or money to advance.

13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be got at three or six months' credit, according to arrangement?- Yes.

13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr. Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr. Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means.

13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on credit?-Yes.

13,722. Still it illustrates the possibility of doing these things under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country.

13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton's report which you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his family are also in debt.

13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen's Savings Bank.

13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes.

13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask's, who has accumulated between £100 and £200 within the last few years.

13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don't know what he takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has saved up, I think, about £130 or £140.

13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same way.

13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year; probably they don't allow their accounts to exceed their earnings?-Quite so.

13,730. You don't know about the debts which stand in the books of other merchants?-No.

13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don't believe they are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority among the men.

13,732. What is the next point in the report to which you wish to refer?-I have already proved that the average quantity of ground on the farms of Mr. Leask's estates in Sound and Whiteness is about 12 acres, and not 3 or 4 acres, as Mr. Hamilton alleges, and I produce the rent rolls and plans to show that the rent is under 10s. an acre. In addition to that, in Sound and Whiteness the tenants have the free use of extensive scattald for their sheep and cattle.

13,733. Are the farms divided there?-Yes, they are all divided. In Yell the tenants have an unlimited amount of sheep pasturage, for which they pay 6d. per head per annum.

13,734. Still these estates of Mr. Leask's only form a small portion of the land in Shetland?-Yes; but I believe they may be taken as a fair criterion for the rest.

13,735. Then you would say that this would have been a fair statement if it had run thus: 'These fishermen for the most part also rent small farms of about 10 to 12 acres, paying a rent of about £6 a year?'-Yes; from £5 to £6 a year on the average. The rents range from perhaps £3 to £12, but on an average they may be taken as from £5 to £6. Then I admit that the direct profit from the shipping agency or the commission allowed to the agents is not a sufficient remuneration for the trouble the agents have and the work they have to perform. I also admit that they do make some profit from their customers; and also that many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage; but I explain that in consequence of that the agent is very often sacrificed in the event of a bad voyage, because then a number of the young hands in the Greenland trade are always in debt.

13,736. Is it within your experience that a much smaller number of green hands is now employed in the Greenland fishery than formerly?-Yes, the number is much smaller than it used to be.

13,737. Is that in consequence of the reluctance of the agents to engage green hands who require an outfit?-Yes. The agents do not wish to give £5 or £6 of an advance for outfit to young hands who have only 30s. to get.

13,738. Therefore they single out more experienced hands, who get larger wages and require no outfit?-Yes, that is my experience.

13,739. Has that tendency been very strongly exhibited within the last few years?-It has been very strongly exhibited of late.

13,740. The agents have made a great effort to exclude young hands, and to obtain experienced men?-Yes, and that admittedly in consequence of the risk attending the advances to the young hands.

13,741. Have the masters of the ships concurred in that course of conduct?-They generally do so. So far as the sealing voyage is concerned, they generally prefer to have experienced hands, but in the whaling voyage they may have about one-fifth of young hands.

13,742. Have they complained about the reduction in the number of young hands engaged for these voyages?-I cannot say that they have.

13,743. Are the gentlemen here who act as agents authorized in any way to engage men for ships?-The masters of the ships are invariably present when the men are engaged; indeed they engage the men themselves.

13,744. Then no engagement is made by the agents?-Very seldom, unless in presence of the master.

13,745. Is that in order to comply with the 147th section of the Merchant Shipping Act?-No; it is because the masters prefer to see the men they engage. Two or three years ago, I think in 1869, we engaged about sixty men and sent them to Dundee; but the masters did not like that plan, and preferred to see the men themselves.

13,746. Are you aware that the 147th section of the Merchant Shipping Act provides, that 'if any unauthorized person engages or supplies any mate, seaman, midshipman, or apprentice, to be entered on board any ship in the United Kingdom, he will be liable to be prosecuted; and if convicted, to a penalty of £20 for each offence?' I was not aware of that.

13,747. It is also provided, that 'the only persons authorized to engage or supply mates, seamen, midshipmen, and apprentices, are the following: owner, the master, or the mate of the ship, or some person who is the bona fide servant and in the constant employ of the owner; the superintendent of a Government Mercantile Marine Office, or an agent licensed by the Board of Trade?'-I may mention that Mr. Leask is part owner of most of the vessels for which he acts as agent; indeed of all except one.

13,748. Therefore he would not fall within that clause as you read it?-No; he would not come within that.

13,749. But you say that, in point of fact, the practice here is, that the seamen are engaged by the master of the ship?-They are virtually engaged by the master.

13,750. And what takes place between the men and the agent before that engagement, is merely of the nature of preliminary negotiations?-Quite so; they are all engaged in presence of the shipping master and the master of the vessel, or at least legally engaged. That is the only binding engagement which is made with them; and it is made in presence of the shipping master and the master of the vessel. It frequently happens that we may arrange in Mr. Leask's office with men to go in the ship, and they fail to appear at the Shipping Office; so that the agreement in the office of the agent is not at all binding.

13,751. Do you remember any occasion of the master of a ship objecting to take any man whom you had recommended to him?- I cannot say that I remember that, but it may have occurred. We generally endeavour to get good men; but when men are scarce, we may have been forced to take what men we could get, and these may not have pleased the master altogether.

13,752. Do you remember any occasion on which the master of a ship objected to take the men whom you wished him to take, and suggested that you were asking him to take men who had accounts with you in preference to others?-I don't remember of that; it may have occurred, but I don't think so. I have known us sometimes trying to persuade a master to take a young lad, out of charity; and sometimes he would do so, against his own inclination.

13,753. Mr. Hamilton says, 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents; or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay himself part of the seaman's wages.' Is that so?-I already explained that we never gave allotments.

13,754. He also says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeeper, are practically debarred from doing so?'-I deny that most emphatically.

[Page 343]

13,755. Do you say that a man who obtains an engagement through Mr. Leask or you is quite at liberty to go to any other shopkeeper and obtain his outfit from him?-Yes; he can go wherever he pleases. Every man gets his advance note from the shipping master, or at least in his presence, when he engages.

13,756. Have you never invited any of these men to obtain their outfit at your shop?-We never invited them, but plenty of them have done it.

13,757. Have none of Mr. Leask's people invited them?-No, we never invited them; but they mostly all take a certain amount of goods from us, for all that.

13,758. Do the preliminary negotiations to which you refer generally take place within Mr. Leask's premises?-Yes; but sometimes I have seen it done on board ship.

13,759. Are the same men generally engaged by you for a succession of years, or do they change from one agent to another?-It is not very common for masters to change their men. The men generally stick to one master, and a great number of them stick to one agent; but it is quite common for them to change agents. Mr. Hamilton also says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread.' I deny that entirely.

13,760. I think you told me in your previous examination that no lists were now exchanged between agents?-It was the custom at one time to exchange lists of balances due by seamen, but it is not done now.

13,761. How long is it since that custom ceased?-I have seen very little of it for a number of years.

13,762. Is it half a dozen years ago since it was given up?-Fully that.

13,763. Have you known any case of a man being refused employment in consequence of dealing with another agent for his outfit?-Never. We were always anxious to get hold of good seamen, whether they dealt with us or not.

13,764. Has that never occurred in the case of middling seaman?- No; even then we never objected to take any seaman in consequence of him going elsewhere with his custom.

13,765. Has there been a large supply of seamen during the last few years for the Greenland trade?-They have been about equal to the demand, certainly not more. I think when the ships were all manned last year, the men were done. There may have been few boys left, but the men were done when the ships were done,

13,766. Have you known any case of a man obtaining an engagement through you and getting his outfit from another shop?-I have no doubt there are plenty of cases of that kind, but I could not point to any particular case.

13,767. Do you remember of any such case occurring?-I cannot say that I remember; but I know that there are plenty of our men who buy very little, perhaps only a few shillings' worth, from us when they go.

13,768. But do you know any case of a man in want of an outfit, engaging with you and getting that outfit from another employer?-I cannot point to any such case.

13,769. The cases which you have in your mind, in which the men have bought very little from you, may be the cases of men who have been for many years at the fishing?-Yes, and who did not require an outfit.

13,770. What was the state of the supply and demand in 1870?-I think it was very much the same as in 1871: the supply was just about equal to the demand, but in 1867 the demand was greater than the supply. In March of that year the 'Jan Mayen' had to leave here three or four men short of her complement. In 1868 I think the supply was about equal to the demand, and also in 1869. In the summer of 1869, after the month of May, the supply was fully greater than the demand.

13,771. Were there few vessels going to the whaling that year?- Yes. In May there were some vessels here engaging men, but we had more men that year than ships.

13,772. How did you select your men that year?-The captain selected there.

13,773. Had you no voice in their selection?-I was not present when they were engaged. Mr. Leask and Mr. Andrew Jamieson were present. I refer to the 'Camperdown' and 'Polynia' in May 1869.

13,774. Were these your only whaling vessels that year?-We had more; but I think we had only these two in at that time when the men were so plentiful. With regard to Mr. Hamilton's report, again, I admit there is no time fixed for settlement, but I have already explained that we cannot compel the men to come until they like. I also deny that the men have to give back all the money that they receive. I have shown that we paid £1120, 12s. 3d. to the crew of the 'Camperdown' in 1865.

13,775. Mr. Hamilton does not say that the men had to give back all the money that they received. What he says is, 'The man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That is only that the men who are in debt to the agent in an equal or greater amount have to hand back the money to him?-The idea that is conveyed is, that every man is in that position.

13,776. Do you deny Mr. Hamilton's statement, that 'when the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion of the crew should not be settled at once?'-Yes, I deny that. I say that no man has to ask twice to be settled with.

13,777. That is not the question. Is it to the agent's interest that the settlement should take place at once or not?-If we wish to have as little trouble as possible, it is our interest to settle with the men at once; but if an agent wishes to retain the men's money in his hands for a month or so, it may be a little to his interest then to delay the settlement.

13,778. May there not be a good deal of money his hands belonging to the men?-There may.

13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the settlement on that account.

13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man buys anything after he comes home.

13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business, it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an unscrupulous agent-I don't suppose there are any such here,-the settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are all highly respectable men.

13,782. That is assumed in my question; but I am putting the case of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is not exempt from bad men.

13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for such reasons?-I don't think it could, because, if the settlement is unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the shipping master and complain.

13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping master in order to get it put right?-Yes.

13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton's: 'I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes?'-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But while the men employed are not free agents,'-I deny that,-'however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour,'-I deny that,-'leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' I deny that he has the opportunity of doing that.

13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent. They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of deposits in the banks. I don't think they are an extravagant people at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic, intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found among the same class of people in other parts of the United Kingdom.

13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence, and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?- They don't always do that.

13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That must be so, because they have no other means of doing it.

13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland.

13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one on their behalf when they were away.

13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?- No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they don't remember exactly about a particular article, they will not settle for it until they do remember.

13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes.

13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to refer to certain passages in the previous evidence given before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked, 'Is it a fact, that very little money passes between the proprietor and the fishermen on these occasions?' [that is, at settlement], and he replies, 'It is the fact.' I say that it is not a fact, and I have proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount earned was £86, and the cash paid was £72.

13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under your own observation in Mr. Leask's business?-That is all. Then in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, 'As a rule, are these fishermen in their debt?' and he replies, 'I think very often they are.' Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225, referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr. Smith is asked, 'Are the wages handed over to the agents?' and he replies, 'The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but that is very extensively evaded.' I deny that.

13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about paying wages at the Custom House?-I don't think so. There is no chance of evading it:

13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that, during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping Office of the agents' accounts as well as of the men's accounts.

13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I cannot say as to that.

13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and sometimes in December.

13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent's office.

13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I don't think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr. Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor. That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants of the agent, but I may say that in the 'Camperdown' crew in 1865 only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr. Smith is asked, 'Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?' and he replies, 'I see none, except to save the merchants trouble.' I deny that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble to be going up to the Shipping Office so often.

13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have insisted on that?-They don't require to insist. So far as we are concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with.

13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867 to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however, was previous to 1867.

13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom House did not interfere then at all.

13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?- No.

13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained why we settled there then.

13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to my knowledge.

13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in the agent's office, in the same way and on the same principle as fishermen's accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247, Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, 'They don't know the value of money, and they don't know how to eke it out, or make it last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men's energies are entirely destroyed.' I maintain that the Shetland people know very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or extravagant, but the reverse.

13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may be the case that some men are in debt.

13,809. But you don't know the circumstances of the whole people of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of them.

13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would surprise me.

13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask's tenants and fishermen and seamen.

13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,- and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves.

13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling fishing are of the same class as those with whom you have had dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr. Walker's evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that £60 or £70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth.

13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, 'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' and he replies, 'Not a fraction of it. If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing.' I deny that most positively, and I have proved it not to be the case.

13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask's tenants in Yell pay 6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d.

13,816. But you don't include the price of the sheep or other expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses, except driving now and then. They don't require to feed them in winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the ground.

13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is ever imported.

13,818. You don't take into account the rent which the tenant pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald.

13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No. Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for tenants.

13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don't know that it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker's, which is so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought from Mr. Leask's tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don't think I need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr. Walker's statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345, 44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372, 44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The statements in Mr. Smith's evidence which I more particularly deny are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245, 44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252.

13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined.

13,822. I believe you are the largest employer in the Faroe trade, and also one of the largest fish-curers in the island?-I am one of the largest: I don't know that I am the largest.

13,823. The previous witness, Mr. William Robertson, has been for a long time in your employment?-Yes.

13,824. He came forward to be examined, I understand, at your suggestion, in order that you, being advanced in years, might not require to do so?-Yes; and he has been more in the habit of settling with the men than I have been myself.

13,825. Have you heard the greater part of his evidence?-I have.

13,826. Do you know it to be correct?-I do.

13,827. You concur in it generally?-Yes. There is only one point on which I would make a remark. With regard to some fishermen getting higher prices than others from small curers, I know there were one or two parties who got more last year, the reason being that there are frequently parties in Scotland who get orders for fish for Australia, and these parties give a higher price than ordinary in order to get good fish, and they are shipped earlier in the season than the bulk of the fish. Last year, also, one or two curers shipped to parties in London at a higher price, and consequently were able to give a higher price to their fishermen; but that was only an exception.

13,828. That would not explain the fact of certain curers paying a higher price every year?-No.

13,829. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE SIMPSON, examined.

13,830. Are you a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I do not wish to give any statement before you at all, [Page 346] because the proprietor may not look well upon me, and perhaps may raise my rent or warn me. My name has been put in to you privately without my knowledge. I did not give it in myself.

13,831. Every one knows that you do not come here of your own free will, but that you have been summoned to come just as you would be summoned as a witness in a court of law. Now that you are here, you are bound to answer the questions which are put to you, and to speak the truth?-I will do so as far as I can, and as far as my memory will enable me.

13,832. Then you are a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I am.

13,833. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman of Lunna?-I believe I am, so far as I can understand.

13,834. You have no liberty to sell your fish to anybody else?- No.

13,835. Was there a meeting held at Lunna about eight or ten years ago, at which Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson were present and told the tenants that they were expected to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I believe there was.

13,836. Were you there?-I don't remember.

13,837. But you knew about it?-I heard that Mr. Bell had delivered the fishing over to Mr. Robertson.

13,838. Was that the reason why you did not want to come forward to-day?-Yes.

13,839. You knew you were bound to fish, and you did not want to say anything to the contrary?-Yes, in case it might affect me in any way with them.

13,840. Would you prefer to have your liberty?-Of course; but my days are done now. I have been bound to serve the estate since I was eleven years of age, and now I am sixty. I was two years at the beach when I was a boy; and I went to the ling fishing when I was thirteen.

13,841. Has there been any time since then when you could have sold your fish to anybody else than the landlord or his tacksman?-I could have sold some of them to small fish-curers or yaggers if I had pleased; but I did not attempt to do so, because I thought I was bound to fish for them.

13,842. Are there small fish-curers or yaggers who buy fish on the sly in the summer?-Yes.

13,843. But in the winter you can sell your fish to any person you please?-I don't think we can do that either. None of the tenants can sell their fish in winter unless they do it privately.

13,844. Do they all sell their winter and spring fish to Mr. Robertson at present?-Yes.

13,845. Have they always sold them to the proprietor or his tacksman?-Yes, except those who sell them privately.

13,846. Are there many yaggers about Lunna?-Not many.

13,847. Do they come round in the course of the season and attempt to buy fish from you?-There is one or two of them in Skerries. Mr. Adie is there.

13,848. But he is not a yagger?-No> John Hughson is also there. Thomas Hughson was there for a while.

13,849. Who does Hughson act for?-John Hughson has only one boat; but I believe he would buy fish from any one if he could get them.

13,850. Where does Hughson live?-John Hughson lives at Coppister, in the south-west part of Yell; and he has a man in Skerries who cures some fish for him. I think they are in partnership in some way.

13,851. What is the name of the man in Skerries?-I cannot say.

13,852. Have you seen men selling their fish to Hughson's factor in Skerries?-No.

13,853. But you know that he is ready to buy them-I hear that.

13,854. Do you think that a man selling his fish to these men, or to any other yagger, would lose his farm?-I don't know.

13,855. But you don't sell to these people yourself, for fear of losing your farm?-I wish to serve the man that I am bound to, and to sell all my fish to him, so far as I can.

13,856. Are you bound to fish for him by your own free will?-I believe it is the landlord who has bound me, but I cannot say.

13,857. Can the landlord bind you unless you agree yourself to be bound?-I am his tenant, and I must submit to his terms.

13,858. Could you not get another holding if you were not satisfied?-The holdings are very difficult to get, because a large part of Shetland has been laid out in sheep farms, and tenants have no opportunity of getting places.

13,859. Do you know John Johnston and Arthur Anderson, who were once in Lunna, and who went over to Burravoe some years ago?-Yes.

13,860. Do you know why they left?-I cannot say, unless it was because they were not satisfied in some way or other, and looked out for better places.

13,861. Did they not leave because they did not want to be bound to fish?-I cannot say.

13,862. Where do you get your supplies?-I purchase them in Lerwick, or wherever I can get them cheapest, except when I run out, and then I take them from the shop at Vidlin.

13,863. Do you buy much in Lerwick?-Sometimes I buy a good quantity; but when my stock runs out, I go to the merchant who is nearest to me for any small thing I want.

13,864. Then you don't get much of your supplies at Mr. Robertson's shop at Vidlin?-I can get any supplies there that I ask for, but I wish to go where I can purchase them cheapest.

13,865. Can you purchase them cheaper in Lerwick than at Vidlin?-Yes; but of course we must allow for freight.

13,866. But, allowing for freight, do you think you are cheaper, on the whole, by buying in Lerwick rather than in Vidlin?-Yes.

13,867. What kind of goods do you get at Vidlin?-Meal or tea, or anything I want.

13,868. Do you get most of them there?-No; I only get a part.

13,869. Does it depend upon whether you have a balance in your favour, or cash in your hands, that you go to Vidlin?-I sometimes go for credit and sometimes for cash.

13,870. Do you get your goods at the same price there, whether you get them on account or pay cash?-I believe I do.

13,871. Is that [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Robertson at Vidlin?-Yes. The account is kept with Mr. Robert Sutherland, the shopkeeper there. I also produce an old account for 1864.

13,872. Do you always keep a pass-book?-No; only at times. I got that account just after the settlement. I thought it rather too heavy, and I wished a copy of it; but I cannot say whether it is accurate or not.

13,873. Did you get a discount when you complained about the account being too high?-I don't remember; but I have sometimes got a small discount.

13,874. Is the settlement at Vidlin generally in December?-It is generally after Martinmas, sometimes sooner and sometimes later.

13,875. We need not go back so far as 1864. Have you ever got an account like that since?-No; I think that was the heaviest account I ever had.

13,876. You never disputed the rates you were charged since then?-No, I never disputed them.

13,877. Do you always get your account read over to you at settlement?-Yes; Mr. Robertson sometimes does it.

13,878. Do you settle with Mr. Robertson himself?-Yes.

13,879. Does he always read over your account?-Sometimes he reads it over, and at other times he allows me to get it read over by Mr. Sutherland.

13,880. Is there a separate account kept for any of your family?- No.

13,881. I see from your pass-book that in 1870 you got two advances of cash in April and June?-Yes.

13,882. Do you get cash advanced to you when you ask it?-Yes.

[Page 347]

13,883. Had you a balance to get at the settlement for 1870?-I think I had.

13,884. I see that on September 9th, 1870, you were charged quarter boll best oatmeal, 5s. 8d.; September 26th, quarter boll, 5s. 6d.; one peck, 1s. 4d. Were you buying meal in Lerwick at that time?-No; that was just about the time when I was getting in my crop.

13,885. Did you buy any meal in Lerwick last summer or autumn?-I bought some in April before I began to the fishing. I paid £2 to Mr. John Tait for sack of Orkney oatmeal.

13,886. The book you have produced also contains your fish account?-It contains a copy of it, which was made by my son on Thursday night, from an old pass-book which I used in settling with Mr. Robertson.

13,887. In 1870 you got 7s. 3d. for your ling: did all the fishermen in Lunnasting get the same?-Yes.

13,888.,Was that the current price for the year?-Yes, but I believe some got more.

13,889. Did you hear that the people about Sandwick had got 8s. 3d. for ling that year?-Yes.

13,890. Was that from Smith and Tulloch, the curers there?-I don't know the men's names, but I believe it was.

13,891. Do you think it would have been possible to pay you as high as that, and to allow the fish-curer a decent profit?-I could not know unless I had been dealing in the fish myself, but I don't think it would have been possible.

13,892. The current price this year was 8s. for ling, 6s. 6d. for tusk and cod, and 4s. for saith?-Yes.

13,893. Do you think there was a higher price paid anywhere else this year?-I cannot say.

13,894. If you had got the price that was paid in 1870 at Sandwick, would you have had a larger sum to receive for your fishing?- Yes; we would have received about £13 more for the crew on the summer and harvest fishing.

13,895. Do you fish much in harvest?-No; we sometimes fish two weeks after old Lammas Day.

13,896. Is that put into a separate account from the summer fishing?-Yes, but it is all paid at the same time, because it has been earned by the same crew.

13,897. Do you sometimes fish in small boats in winter?-I have done that on former occasions, but not now. I have dropped the winter fishing.

13,898. Did you sometimes take large quantities of fish in winter?-Sometimes the fishing then was not very good. In some years we might make a few pounds by it.

13,899. Did you always sell your winter fish to the tacksman at Vidlin?-Sometimes; but I cannot say that we did so always.

13,900. Did you consider yourself bound to sell them to him?-I believed I was bound.

13,901. But you were not so strict in doing it in winter as you were with regard to the summer fishing?-No.

13,902. What led you to think that you were bound to sell your winter fish to him as well as your summer fish?-I don't know. I only knew that the tacksman wished to have them; but we did not sell them all to him.

13,903. Are you at perfect liberty to go to Lerwick for your goods if you choose?-Yes.

13,904. Does Sutherland or any one else ask you at settlement if you want any goods?-No; they just give me whatever goods I ask.

13,905. But do they ask you if you want anything when you are settling?-At times they may, but not always.

13,906. Do you settle in the shop at Vidlin?-We settle in the office behind the shop.

13,907. Do you go past the counter into the office?-Yes.

13,908. After you have had your account read over to you, and the amount of your fish stated, are you ever asked whether you want any more goods?-No; not unless I please to take some.

13,909. But are you ever asked if you want them?-I cannot say that I am. If I buy anything myself, then they may ask me if I want anything more.

13,910. Do they not ask you unless you are buying something at any rate?-No.

13,911. Does not Mr. Sutherland sometimes ask you if you want goods before you go in to settle?-No.

13,912. If you take goods at that time, are they put into your account for the past year, or do they go into your account for the next year?-They are entered any way I choose. Perhaps they may be marked down to account, or I may pay for them in cash if it is any small thing. I don't wish to run a heavy account.

13,913. Do you pay in cash for the articles you get in Lerwick, or have you an account with Mr. Tait?-There are some merchants who know me who would give me credit for perhaps twelve months or so, but sometimes I pay cash down.

13,914. I suppose they know that you have got something in the bank?-It is not much. Mr. Robertson is my banker.

13,915. Then you sometimes leave your balance in his hands at the end of the year, and get interest on it?-Yes.

13,916. Why do you not deal more with him for your supplies when he is your banker?-I deal with him in Lerwick, but I deal as little as possible at Vidlin, unless when I run out.

13,917. Do you get goods from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-Yes, I get what I want.

13,918. Have you an account with him here as well as an account in the shop at Vidlin?-Yes.

13,919. Do you get any meal from him in Lerwick?-Yes, and tea and sugar.

13,920. Do you get them cheaper from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick than at Vidlin?-Yes.

13,921. On the opposite side of your Lerwick account is there entered any money or interest that is due to you?-Yes; Mr. Robertson enters that in his book.

13,922. Do you know whether John Hughson buys a large quantity of fish in the course of a year?-I cannot say.

13,923. Why do the men prefer to sell to him?-They do it of their own free will.

13,924. Do they get a larger price from him?-Perhaps they may, but they only sell to him privately.

13,925. Did any man ever tell you that he had got a larger price from Hughson?-I don't remember.

13,926. Would he be paying money at the time for the fish which were sold to him?-Perhaps he might, or in any trifle of goods which were needed at the time. There are some things which Mr. Robertson may be out of in Skerries, and we have to go to another merchant for them. For instance, if we wanted a refreshment of spirits, or anything like that, we have to go to Mr. Adie for it.

13,927. Does Hughson's man keep spirits too?-I don't know. Perhaps he may have a little for supplying his own men, but I don't know anything about that.

13,928. Has Mr. Adie got a licence?-Yes.

13,929. When fish are bought by Mr. Adie's man or by Hughson's man, are they paid for at the time, or is there an account kept of them?-I cannot say; perhaps the men may run a small account, and settle it up afterwards. I have had to go to Mr. Adie for many a thing, and I have run an account with him for them.

13,930. Do you not sell fish to him?-No.

13,931. You merely run an account with him for anything you want?-Yes.

13,932. Has Mr. Robertson not a shopkeeper at Skerries in the summer time as well as Mr. Adie?-He has a small supply of goods there, such as lines, and tea and sugar; but that is all. Sometimes I required something else and went to Mr. Adie for it, and sometimes I bought my stores at Lerwick.

[Page 348]

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE ROBERTSON, examined.

13,933. Are you a fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting?-I am.

13,934. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman, Mr. Robertson?- Yes.

13,935. How do you know that you are bound?-Because I understand we are bound by Mr. Bell to fish for him.

13,936. Who told you that?-When Mr. Bell came in to rule over us at first, the agreement was that the tenants were to give the offer of all their produce to him, and to no other man.

13,937. Did Mr. Bell tell you that?-Yes.

13,938. Was that about ten or twelve years ago?-It is longer ago than that.

13,939. Was it when Mr. Bell came to the estate first?-Yes.

13,940. Did he buy your fish at that time?-Yes.

13,941. Was there a meeting at which Mr. Bell told you that?- Yes; it took place in the house of Lunna.

13,942. How were you informed that Mr. Robertson became the tacksman?-We were informed that he was the tacksman, and we knew it.

13,943. Was there a meeting at that time too?-I was aware of none.

13,944. You only heard that Mr. Robertson became tacksman, and you don't remember who told you?-No.

13,945. Have you always fished for him since, and got the current price?-Yes.

13,946. Do you get your provisions at the shop at Vidlin?-Yes; and sometimes I get them from Mr. Robertson's shop in Lerwick, if I ask them there.

13,947. Do you keep an account at Lerwick also?-Yes, a small account.

13,948. Is it separate from the Vidlin account?-They are all brought together and settled for at the same time.

13,949. Do you get your goods cheaper when you come to Lerwick for them, than when you get them at Vidlin?-I cannot say, because I never had money to purchase them with.

13,950. You have always had to run an account?-Yes.

13,951. Had you a balance to get in cash at the end of last year?- No; I was in debt.

13,952. Have you been so for many years?-Yes.

13,953. Have you sometimes bought your goods at other shops?- Not often, because I did not have money to buy them with there.

13,954. When you did buy them at other shops, where did you get the money?-In the first part of the time I had a little; but I have not bought anything at other shops lately.

13,955. Do you not sometimes sell your winter fish for a little money in hand?-No.

13,956. Do you sometimes get an advance from Mr. Robertson?- Yes. If I ask for a little money I get it.

13,957. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. I have got an account of my last year's dealings here. [Produces it.]

13,958. Have you always had a pass-book?-No.

13,959. Is this the first one you had?-Yes.

13,960. You pay your rent to Mr. Robertson, and it is put into your account?-Yes.

13,961. You begin on December 12, 1870, with a balance against you of £22, 18s. 8d., and that was increased at December last to £39, 14s. 2d., including the rent?-Yes.

13,962. You were credited at settlement with a payment of cash in August of £2, and with the amount of your fishing, £18, 12s. 11d., reducing the balance to £19, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.

13,963. Where did the cash you paid in August come from?-It came from the sale of an ox.

13,964. Who did you sell it to?-I cannot exactly say, because it was my wife who sold it. I was at Skerries at the time.

13,965. Have you got any supplies since November from the Vidlin shop?-Yes.

13,966. Are the supplies of the men sometimes stopped when they get too deep in debt?-Yes.

13,967. Are they then put upon a certain allowance?-Yes.

13,968. Is that a common thing about Vidlin?-I cannot say for any one but myself. I have been put upon an allowance; but I cannot say how much it was, because it was my family who always got it.

13,969. I see that in your book on June 14, 21, and 28, there are entries on each of these dates of 24 lbs. oatmeal, and 3s. 81/2d. for flour; was that your allowance?-I believe so.

13,970. There are similar entries on July 5 and 12, and there is no other entry till 26th July, when you got double the quantity, but it is entered in a different form?-Yes.

13,971. Did you understand that you were on an allowance all last summer?-Yes.

13,972. Was that done with the view of reducing the amount of your debt?-Certainly.

13,973. And it is considerably reduced now?-Yes.

13,974. Do you think you will get it all wiped off?-I don't know. It depends on the fishing and the crop.

13,975. Are there many men are in the same position as yourself?-That is a secret to me. I don't know how the men's accounts stand with Mr. Robertson.

13,976. Why did you get so far into debt?-I and my family had a fever in the middle of summer about six years ago, and I got behind then. My earnings were all stopped by the fever.

13,977. Do you think that if you had ready money you would be able to purchase your supplies cheaper than you can get them at the Vidlin shop?-I don't know. Perhaps if I was trying, I might be able to purchase them a little better. There are freights and other things that must make them dearer at Vidlin than elsewhere.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SIMPSON, examined.

13,978. Are you a fisherman at Valour, in Lunnasting?-I am.

13,979. Are you a relation of Laurence Simpson, who has been already examined?-I am his brother.

13,980. Have you heard his evidence?-Yes, I heard good deal of it; but his case is different from mine, because he has had ready money with which to purchase things as he best could, and I have not had it. I have been obliged to take my goods from the people I was fishing to, because I did not have money with which to buy them at any other place.

13,981. Do you think he got his things rather cheaper than you in consequence of having ready money?-I think so.

13,982. Were you obliged to deal at the shop at Vidlin?-I was, because I was in debt.

13,983. Were you bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I was.

13,984. Do you think you could have got a better price for your fish if you had been free?-Perhaps we might; but we could not ask for it, because we were bound.

13,985. If you were free, would you attempt to cure your own fish, or to sell them to another curer?-I might.

13,986. Do you think you would make anything by curing your own fish?-I think I would.

13,987. Would you be able to give some idle time to it when you could not go to sea?-If we were curing our own fish, two or three boats would join together, and employ a man and a boy for the purpose, and then the men would have all their time to go to sea.

13,988. Would you have a factor of your own?-Yes, if we had our freedom.

[Page 349]

13,989. Have you often thought about that?-We would have thought about it if we had had our freedom; but we were bound, and we could not do it.

13,990. Have you got your pass-book?-I have had no pass-book for some time. There was one year when I had a pass-hook for some time, but it was not made up regularly, and it was given up. Then the whole account was put into the ledger, and Mr. Sutherland went over it with me at settlement; but the last year Mr. Sutherland was busy, and we did not get it done. This year, however, Mr. Robertson has given me a copy of the account for the two years' transactions. I only got it to-day before I came down here, but I cannot understand it very well. [Produces two passbooks.]

13,991. Did you get the copy of your account after you got the summons to come here?-No. The girl came with it just about the same time that the summons came. She had been over at the shop, and she brought the summons with her.

13,992. Did you ask Mr. Robertson at settlement for a copy of your account?-I asked Mr. Sutherland to read over my account, and when I went to hear him read it he said he would give me a copy, and he has put it down in a pass-book.

13,993. I see here an entry on 17th current, 'To paid freight on b. meal, 5d.' What does that mean?-It was a boll of meal I got from Lerwick, and very likely Mr. Sutherland has paid the freight for me.

13,994. Did you get that meal from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?- No, I got it from William Smith.

13,995. The balance against you in December 1869 was £30, 5s. 3d., and it was reduced at last settlement to £21, 17s. 111/2d.?- Yes, I have brought it down to that by my two years' earnings.

13,996. How did you happen to have such a large debt?-I had a fever in the same year that Laurence Robertson was ill, and I earned no more that year, although the fishing then was a good one. My illness brought me into debt that season, and I have never been able to clear it off.

13,997. I see in your account on 7th September last, 'By balance to kelp, per son Robert, 6s. 4d.' How does that go into your account?-The boy had some things out of the shop, and that has likely been to pay for them.

13,998. Had he an account of his own for kelp?-He had no account, because he is not old enough yet but he was working with his mother and sisters at the kelp, and he got some clothes.

13,999. Had his mother and sisters some out-takes from the shop while they were working at the kelp?-Yes.

14,000. And the 6s. 4d. would be what was due on the kelp above the amount of these out-takes?-It was what they allowed the boy for his share of the kelp.

14,001. Had your wife and your daughters accounts of their own separate from yours?-Yes.

14,002. Do the other members of your family always have accounts of their own, independent of your account?-They have had accounts for kelp, and perhaps for some other trifles besides.

14,003. Do they take in hosiery at the Vidlin shop?-Very little.

14,004. Do they take any of it from the members of your family?-I don't know if they have much to give them, but if they wanted a little at a time they might have taken some of it to them.

14,005. I see on September 22, 'By 74 lbs. wool at 111/2d.' What was that?-It was wool that I gave into the shop to help to pay off my account.

14,006. Was that all the wool off your sheep for the year?-It was not the whole of it. I had a little more than that. There had been some of it used for my own family. The sheep were kept in a park which Mr. Bell had taken in. We had it as a free pasture before, but he took the pasture from us, and rouped the park for £15, to keep 200 head of sheep. That was the reason why we were bound to give our produce to Mr. Robertson. I considered it right in me to give him the wool, in order to pay for the rent of the park; but previously we had that pasture at our own freedom.

14,007. Were you bound to sell the wool and the sheep in that pasture to Mr. Robertson?-Mr. Robertson was the cautioner to Mr. Bell for the rent of it, the same as he was for the rent of our toon.

14,008. Was he the tacksman?-Yes.

14,009. And Mr. Robertson let you the park?-No. Mr. Bell let us the park. It was his own property, but Mr. Robertson was cautioner for the rent.

14,010. Was the park at Lunna House?-No. It was a park about a mile to the south of Lunna. We were allowed by Mr. Bell to put 200 head into it, and we did so; but there came a dearth, and it could hardly bear that number.

14,011. Have you got the park still?-Yes, I and my brother and Mr. Anderson. There was another man interested in it at first, Hunter Sinclair, but he gave up his share, and now the three of us have it.

14,012. Have you one-third share of the sheep which are put upon it?-Yes.

14,013. And this was the wool which had been produced from these sheep?-Yes; and because Mr. Robertson had become bound for the rent of the park, we thought we ought to give him the wool in return.

14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.

14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking me for it, but I would not sell it to them.

14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would not consent to sell it to them at all.

14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d. wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right to it.

14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your wool?-I cannot say that he had.

14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid my debt he would not have asked it.

14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to another.

14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.

14,022. How do you sell your eggs?-We sell them mostly to Mr. Sutherland, and get small stores for them at the time, such as tea or sugar, or anything we want. They do not go into the account.

14,023. The eggs are never paid for in cash?-No; but I have no doubt we would get cash for them if we asked it.

14,024. But you always choose to take tea or sugar?-Yes, just the things we are needing.

14,025. Is that the way in which all the people in your neighbourhood do with their eggs?-I cannot say it is the way with the whole of them. Perhaps some of them may take them to other places for anything they want; but I believe most of the people dispose of them in that way to Mr. Sutherland.

14,026. Do you know Robert Murray at Swinister-Yes.

14,027. He is a merchant there, and keeps a shop?-Yes.

14,028. Does he sometimes buy fish?-He buys small fish, like what are called hand-line fish, or fish caught with lines near the shore; but I cannot say whether he has the summer time or not. He may have, for anything I know.

14,029. Does he sometimes engage people to fish for him in the winter or spring or summer?-I don't know.

14,030. Do you know whether he once engaged a [Page 350] man named Peter Williamson?-I heard so. I heard that Williamson was bargained to fish to Robert Murray, and that Mr Robertson would not allow him to do so. I never asked Mr Robertson about that.

14,031. Are you a relation of Mr Robertson?-I am his cousin.

14,032. Does Murray sometimes buy fish in the same way as the yaggers do?-He buys fish in his own shop; but I don't know that he goes to the Skerrries, or anywhere at a distance to buy fish.

14,033. Do the men sometimes go to him when they want a little ready money or supplies that cannot be got at Vidlin?-There are none of the fishermen at Lunnasting who go to him, so far as I am aware.

14,034. Is his place a long way from where you live?-Yes; it takes me a good day when I go there by sea, and it is a long way by land; but I never sold a tail of fish to him in my life.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, MARGARET JAMIESON, examined

14,035. Do you live in Quarff?-Yes.

14,036. Are you sometimes employed in knitting?-Yes, in knitting and dressing. I have also a little farm which I work, but I generally work at the knitting and dressing when I can get that kind of work to do. The farm is my brother's but he is very ill.

14,037. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it given out to you by the merchants?-I always knit with wool which I purchase for myself.

14,038. What kind of things do you knit?-Shawls, veils, haps, plaids, and other things.

14,039. Are you always paid for these in goods?-I sold a plaid to Mr Sinclair in the spring when I was unwell, and did not get it settled for until the summer. The price of the article was 18s., and I asked a halfpenny from him, and he refused to give it to me.

14,040. Did he not give you the halfpenny?-He gave it to me in the end, because I had to post a letter, and I got the halfpenny from him for that purpose.

14,041. Was the postage of that letter only a halfpenny?-No, but I had another halfpenny of my own, and I required the halfpenny from him to buy a stamp with. On Wednesday last I sold a plaid to him for 20s. and asked 2s. in cash at the end of the settlement, but they refused to give it to me. I then asked 1s. 6d., and they said if I got that they would mark it as 1s. 9d. against me.

14,042. Who said that?-It was one of the serving-men in Mr Sinclair's shop; I don't know his name. Then I asked 1s., and he said it would be 1s. 3d. against me; but I refused to take it on that footing. I then asked for 9d. which he consented to give me, saying he did not have it in the shop, but that he would borrow it from one of the clerks or serving-men.

14,043. Did he say he did not have 9d. in the shop?-Yes. I got 6d. and left 3d. due, which I could not get unless I took calico.

14,044. You did not put him to the trouble of borrowing the 9d.?- He borrowed 4d. from one of the persons there, and he found 2d. in the counter.

14,045. Do you think there was no money in the till at that time?- I do not know anything about it except what he told me. I consider from my own experience, and from what I hear from others, that we are very much like the Hebrews of Egypt,-very much burdened down with many things, and not able to bear our burdens.

14,046. When you took the shawl in the other day, which you sold for a pound, did you bargain that you were to get payment for it in goods?-There was no bargain made about it.

14,047. When you sold the shawl in the previous spring, was it marked down in an account, or did you get a line for it?-I got a line for it.

14,048. Did you send in your shawl?-No; I went in and sold it and asked a line, which I got.

14,049. Did you not want the goods at the time?-I got some goods and the balance in a line.

14,050. But you did not want to take the whole in goods?-No, I refused to do that. I did not want them until afterwards.

14,051. Does it often happen that you don't want goods when you sell your shawls, and that you would rather have money?-We would rather have money, because there are many things that we require it for. There are many taxes we have to pay, and there are many things we can only buy with money.

14,052. Would you take a lower price for your hosiery if you could get cash instead of goods?-I don't know, because goods will help us through a part of the year as well as if we got a little money. I consider our hosiery is worth what we sell it at, even although it was paid in cash.

14,053. Where do you get your wool?-I get it from any person who has wool, and who will exchange it for a little tea or hosiery, or a bit of calico or yellow cotton.

14,054. Do you spin it yourself?-Always. I am not able to get it spun for me, because that has to be paid for in money, and I cannot get the money.

14,055. Are you not able to pay for worsted?-No, because it has to be paid for in money; and I am not able to put the wool to the spinner, because that would require money too.

14,056. Do you sometimes have to pay money for wool?-If we can get a day's work or anything of that kind to do, we may get a little wool in exchange for it, but it is not very often we can get that.

14,057. Have the people who sell wool generally a fixed price for it?-Yes, according to the fineness or coarseness of it.

14,058. What do you pay for the finer wool?-It may be about 1s. 6d., according to the quality of it. I think the cheapest we can get is 1s.

14,059. But you get it by barter; do you give goods for it at the same price as you paid for them?-Generally we give a parcel of goods, and they will give us so much wool as they think it is worth. It is never priced at all; we merely give a small parcel of tea in exchange for so much.

14,060. Do you sometimes buy wool at the shops in Lerwick?- No, I cannot say that I ever bought any there.

14,061. Have you any sheep of your own?-Very few. We sometimes get wool from them, but not much.

14,062. Have you sold wool from them?-Never.

14,063. Can you not get as much wool off your own sheep as serves you for your own work?-No, we don't have so many of them as that.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.

14,064. Do you wish to say anything about the evidence which Margaret Jamieson has just given?-Yes. I wish to explain that those in the shop have no power to give money except by referring to my father. Then with regard to the want of money in the shop, it may have happened that my father had taken the money with him to the bank, as very often happens. Frequently when there is some small change in the drawer, it is given away upon lines or something of that kind. I suppose that is the explanation of what the witness has said.

14,065. But I suppose the practice is that you don't give money at all unless you can help it?-If the bargain is made for money, then we give money; but I don't see that we have any right to give money when the bargain is made for goods, any more than if the bargain had been made for goods we could compel them to take money for it. Sometimes my father is [Page 351] very unwilling to take hosiery, and would rather not buy it, either for goods or money. That is frequently the case when he is not requiring the article, or when the article is of inferior value.

14,066. Was what the witness said correct about 1s. 6d. being offered to her in money for 1s. 9d. and 1s. for 1s. 3d.?-It depends on circumstances. In some cases if an article was sold at 1s. for goods, the person might get 9d. or 10d. for it in money, according as the article was worth it. If it was an article which we had a special order for, we would perhaps give 10d., because we would soon get the money back again; but if it was an article that was likely to lie for some time, we would only give 9d. for it.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, senior, examined.

14,067. You are a merchant in Lerwick, and tacksman of the estate of Lunna?-I am.

14,068. Have you a fish-curing establishment at Vidlin?-It is at Skerries. We take a few fish at Vidlin, but there is not much done there.

14,069. But you have a store at Vidlin?-Yes.

14,070. Have you also a curing establishment in Lerwick?-We do very little with it. We sometimes take a few dried fish here.

14,071. You were present to-day and heard the evidence of some men from Lunnasting parish?-Yes.

14,072. Do you wish to make any observation or any statement with regard to that evidence?-I think there are no particular observations I can make, except with regard to the difference between the charges for goods in Lerwick and in the country. We always have some additional expense upon the goods which are sent to the country, but we make the difference as small as we possibly can.

14,073. What should you say was the difference between the prices charged at Vidlin and those which you would charge in Lerwick?-Perhaps from 21/2 to 5 per cent.; but the fact is, that for some things the prices are the same. For instance, cotton goods are the same price.

14,074. Can you land them at Vidlin at very nearly the same price, as at Lerwick?-Yes. The amount of freight would be very small, and we make a point to sell them at the same rates. I put on the prices myself, and I know that we sell these articles at the same price as here.

14,075. I understand the men on the Lunna estate are under obligation by the tenure on which they hold their land to fish for you?-Yes, if they fish at Skerries. Mr. Bell has booths and beaches there; and seventeen years ago he applied to me about them. I was very reluctant to go into the matter at all, but he asked me to assist him, and I agreed to do it, and we have been dealing in that way ever since.

14,076. Has Mr. Bell an interest in that yet, except that he receives his rent from you?-No. He has no interest in it whatever, except that by his arrangement with me he is secure in getting his rent.

14,077. Have you any fishermen fishing for you who are tenants upon other estates than that of Lunna?-Not at that place. I have had several people in Nesting, on Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground. They have fished for me perhaps for thirty years; but it is very little they do, and they generally give their fish dry.

14,078. Are these winter or summer fish?-Both winter and summer.

14,079. What do you pay for a fisherman's summer fish of his own curing?-Their own fish are generally never so well cured as when cured by the merchants themselves. This year I paid the men £21 for their own cure, and I don't think I could get above that for them. For my own cure the current price was per ton.

14,080. What were the circumstances connected with the case of Peter Williamson who had come under an engagement to Robert Murray at Swinister last season?-I don't know what engagement he came under to Murray, but Williamson denied it to me. All I can say about it is that he is a tenant of Mr. Bell's, and that when he settled his account at Vidlin with me it was understood he was to fish again; but one of his partners had engaged to go with another boat of mine, and he (Williamson) did not know very well whether he would manage to get a boat for the fishing or not. I suppose he had made some kind of statement to Robert Murray about that; but at that time Williamson was really very much indebted to me. I had kept him and his family alive with meal for year after year, and he was very far behind; and it would scarcely have done to have allowed him to go anywhere he liked. I got a crew for him, and then he was quite willing to go and fish for me. I think he ought to have asked me first before he made any promise to any other body, because he knew that it was the rule on the estate to fish for me if they fished from Skerries at all. There are many of the Lunna tenants who never fish for me, but who fish for Mr. Adie or go to Faroe and Greenland, and I never stop them from doing that at all.

14,081. It is not part of the understanding that any men who go to Faroe or Greenland should go in your boats?-No.

14,082. If a man goes to Faroe or Greenland, he is free to go for whoever he likes?-Yes.

14,083. Is he free if he stays at home?-If he goes to Skerries, as there is an establishment there belonging to the estate, and which must be kept up, it is understood that any man going there must fish for me; but Mr. Adie has a good many of Mr. Bell's tenants fishing for him, and when people go to Feideland I never interfere with them.

14,084. Are there many of them who go so far as Feideland?- Yes, a good many. The Delting tenants do that.

14,085. I understand you had a considerably smaller number of men employed last year than you had some years ago?-Yes; they had succeeded very well for two or three years previously, and they had received a good deal of supplies, and I did not ask or force anybody to go to the fishing unless they chose. I told them that if they could do better otherwise, I should be very glad if they did so; but I am sorry to say that those tenants who fished elsewhere, or who went to Greenland, did not seem better off.

14,086. How do you engage your beach boys and curers at Skerries?-I generally engage them by the week.

14,087. Are they mostly connected with the Lunna estate?-Yes, generally; but sometimes I engage others.

14,088. Then you don't pay, as they do in other places, a beach fee by the year?-We settle with them at the year's end. We cannot very well do otherwise.

14,089. Are they engaged on weekly wages?-Yes.

14,090. That is to say, the wage is counted by the week?-Yes.

14,091. It is not a fee for the season?-No; it used to be, but I found it better to pay them by the week, and let them know what they have to get.

14,092. Is that wage fixed at the commencement of the season?- Generally it is, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes we don't know what the boys can do, as we have not tried them; and we like to see what they are fit for before we arrange what they are to be paid. We generally give them what we consider a fair thing.

14,093. These people, you say, are settled with at the end of the year, and they have been taking supplies as they require them?- Yes; they require little meal and other things to live upon.

14,094. Do they get these at Skerries in the course of the season?-Yes.

14,095. And these supplies are accounted for at settling time?- Yes.

14,096. Have the people so employed in curing generally a balance to get, or do they generally exhaust [Page 352] their wages in supplies?-That depends very much upon the disposition of the party.

14,097. But what is the fact in the general run of cases?-We generally have a balance to pay them. The dealings of these beach people are usually small. They cannot be very large, but they generally have a balance in their favour, and they get what is due to them in cash as soon as we ascertain its amount.

14,098. Do they get a small sum of cash, if they want it, in the course of the season, for any particular purpose?-Yes; I keep cash at the station for that particular purpose, so that none of the men may be disappointed if they want it.

14,099. But I suppose it is a very small proportion which they ask for in cash?-They cannot expect much. They don't need it.

14,100. They have nothing to do with it at a place like that?-No; but whenever they want it they get it; and sometimes when they get cash, they don't put it to the best purpose. They are near a spirit shop there.

14,101. Is that Mr. Adie's?-Yes.

14,102. Is his the only spirit shop there?-Yes.

14,103. Do you think people supply themselves more with liberally with spirits and other luxuries in the fishing season than they do during the rest of the year?-I think not, generally.

14,104. They are working harder at that time, are they not?-Yes.

14,105. And they would require a larger supply?-Yes; but the men are not very much addicted to that. A few individuals may be; but the men, upon the whole, are not extravagant in that way.

14,106. I noticed that a purchase of meal was made by Thomas Hutchison in Skerries at your shop about January 1868. Can you tell me what the current price of meal was at that date?-I was told it was in 1867, and I looked up the prices for that year.

14,107. I have found, however, that it was in 1868. What do you think the price was at that time?-I would not like to say, because the price of meal varies so much; but I will look my books, and mention what it was.

14,108. You were engaged in the herring fishing one time, I understand?-Yes; and I unfortunately am a little engaged in it still. It has been a complete failure lately.

14,109. What is the nature of the arrangement with the men in that fishing?-The men are generally understood to have the nets and the boats. The boats are their own property. If a crew wants a boat, which costs from £17 to £18, I have to pay for it; but I wish them to have the name of owning the boat, and I charge them hire, although the hires really cannot pay the price. I wish them to call the boats their own, and I do not debit them with the price, but it is charged in a separate account to the crew.

14,110. Is that account debited yearly with the hire of the boat?- Yes.

14,111. How do you arrange about the nets?-They are also entered in a separate account for the crew.

14,112. How is the payment for the fish arranged?-The men get one half of the fish for their labour, and the other half goes to the credit of the boat and nets. It is entered to the credit of the boat and net account, and the other half of the fish goes to their own account.

14,113. Is there a fixed hire for the boat and nets?-There is no fixed hire. We generally charge £1 for the herring fishing, and £2, 10s. for the haaf or summer fishing.

14,114. How long does the herring fishing last?-About six weeks; but the men rarely go to it at all, because lately there have been no herrings on the coast.

14,115. Then it is hardly a hire that is paid for the boat and nets, but you furnish both and get one half of the fish?-Yes.

14,116. There is no account for the boat and nets, except that you take one half of the fish and the other half is divided among the men, without any other deduction, unless for the amount of any account which they may have incurred?-Yes.

14,117. Is the price of the herring fixed at the commencement of the season?-I never made any arrangement about that with them, but usually paid the price which Messrs. Hay & Co. paid. But we have got none to pay for lately at all.

14,118. How long has that fishing been in existence here?-For four years with me, but there has been a herring fishing existing here for a long time.

14,119. Are Messrs. Hay the principal parties engaged in it?-Yes.

14,120. Then the herring fishing here is not conducted on the same principle as at Wick?-It is not.

14,121. No price per cran has been fixed at the beginning of the season?-I think not.

14,122. Is there any particular reason for that?-I don't know any reason for it at all.

14,123. I suppose it has been rather assimilated to the other fishing speculations of Shetland?-I believe so.

14,124. The arrangement you enter into is as nearly as possible the same as exists in the other branches of the fishing trade here?- Yes.

14,125. There is a settlement at the end of the year for the summer fishing?-Yes. The men are settled with for both branches of the fishing together.

14,126. In a letter which you wrote and sent along with the returns you have made, you say, 'In the year 1868 I paid about £300 in cash advances for the people on the herring fishing alone, which has since then turned out a complete failure. These circumstances account for the large amount of debt shown to be due in the year 1870.' Does that mean that when the people went to the herring fishing you had to make considerable advances to them in cash?- I may explain that these men had been fishing for Mr. Adie, and a number of them were due him money on account, and I paid all their advances and cleared them off with Mr. Adie. I took them into my own hands, and of course these sums had to be debited in the men's accounts.

14,127. At that time had you gone into the herring fishing more largely than before?-Yes.

14,128. Had you no men engaged in the herring fishing then who had been fishing for you in the home fishing before?-No, I had not been in the herring fishing for twelve years before.

14,129. But had you any man who had been engaged in the home fishing of the year before for you?-Yes; the men had all been engaged at the ling fishing for me, but they fished for Mr. Adie in the herring fishing as soon as the ling fishing was over, and some of them seemed anxious for a change, and others not.

14,130. For what change?-That I should have the herring fishing as well as the ling fishing. It was their own request that I should begin the herring fishing again, and I thought it was as well to do it.

14,131. Had they had accounts with Mr. Adie, as regards the herring fishing, separate from what they ran for the time they were employed in the ling fishing with you?-Yes.

14,132. Did Mr. Adie go out of the herring fishing altogether when these men left him?-No. He is in it still, but he had not so many hands employed in after they left him as he had before.

14,133. You thought it a reasonable thing, when you took away his herring fishers, that you should take their accounts with them?- Yes; that was suggested by some of the men to me, and I intimated to Mr. Adie that some of the men wanted it, and that it would be as well to carry it out.

14,134. Did the men say to you that they had accounts with Mr. Adie?-I knew that.

14,135. And perhaps they demurred a little, or felt little difficulty in leaving him in that state of matters?-They did not say much about that, but I thought it was fair to clear Mr. Adie if I took away the men who had been engaged to him.

14,136. Have you ever known such an arrangement [Page 353] being made when a change of employment took place in any other branch of the fishing business?-No.

14,137. If a man shifted from one employer to another in the home fishing, has it been usual for the new employer to take over any debt that the man may have incurred to the previous employer?-I should suppose that would be reasonable, but I am not aware that it has been generally the case.

14,138. Have you known any instances where it has occurred?-I think I remember one or two instances.

14,139. But you don't know of any special arrangement between merchants to that effect?-No.

14,140. And you have not entered into any such arrangement yourself?-No.

14,141. Did any of the men object to the debt which they had incurred to Mr. Adie being transferred to you?-No; I think they were rather pleased at it, because they were afraid Mr. Adie would have been hard upon them for it.

14,142. Might he have been harder after they left his service?- There is no doubt he would, and he would have had a right to be so.

14,143. Do you purchase kelp on the Lunna estate?-Yes.

14,144. Does your tack include a lease of the kelp shores?-In point of fact I have no tack, but merely a letter, and just now I am acting upon a verbal agreement from year to year. I can give it up whenever I choose, on giving it short intimation.

14,145. Does that arrangement include the kelp shores?-Yes.

14,146. What is the price allowed by you for kelp?-4s. 6d. when paid in goods.

14,147. Is there a different price when it is paid for in cash?-Mr. Sutherland manages that matter; but I am pretty sure that he pays only 4s. in cash, and anybody can get that who chooses.

14,148. But I suppose most of them take it in goods-Many of them do. It is it very convenient way for them, and the goods are not charged any higher in consequence, but we consider that the profit on the goods enables us to give a higher price.

14,149. How many of the women may be employed in that way?- Perhaps about sixty, taking it as a rough guess.

14,150. All these people, I presume, have accounts open at the shop at Vidlin, as I have seen to be the case in other parts of Shetland?-Yes. We would be very glad if the accounts were less, but really it is impossible to work with the people without them. It is almost impossible to get the balances brought down, but we never refuse them cash when they have it to get.

14,151. Do you purchase wool to any extent?-No, I don't do anything in the hosiery line.

14,152. Do you think it would be possible to carry on the fish-curing business here profitably without combining it with the other business in the shop at Vidlin?-I don't see how it could be done.

14,153. But supposing it could be done,-supposing the people could get their supplies elsewhere,-would the fish-curer be able to carry on his business at profit?-All they would do in that case would merely be to take a commission, as they now do, for selling the fish. They calculate upon getting that commission at present, and that is what they would expect under another system; but the people unfortunately cannot do without these supplies. Some of the men, however, are well off. For instance, the man Laurence Simpson, who was examined today, is very well off and can do without advances. He can buy his meal wherever he chooses.

14,154. Would it be a profitable thing for the fish-curer if he were content with that commission, without having a profit on his goods?-Perhaps that might be done, but I don't know.

14,155. Is there any other point you wish to mention?-I have heard some of the men who have been examined here, saying that they would like their freedom. I have no objection to any man having his freedom and being allowed to cure his fish for himself, but I suspect such a system would destroy the character of the fish in the country if it were gone into. The fish would be injured by it; I know that by experience. The cure would not be so good as it is at present.

14,156. But if the men had their freedom, would they not employ a factor for themselves or would it not come to this in the end, that the men would sell their fish to any curer who was most convenient for them?-Many of them would cure their own fish, which they do now in some places, but we never can get the quality of the fish good enough when they are cured in that way. They cannot be put in among fine fish, because the men do not dry them so well as they ought to be, and they will not keep for any length of time.

14,157. Would they not very soon find that out, and either employ a fish-factor for the curing of their fish upon the co-operative system, or return virtually to the present system and sell their fish to any merchant who would take them, with the exception that he would pay for them in ready money?-I am afraid any change of that kind would affect the quality of the fish.

14,158. But if it affected the quality of the fish, the men would soon find that they did not get so good a price for them?-Yes.

14,159. And they would either return to the old system, or to some one under which the curing of the fish would be equally good. The men would not be content permanently to take a lower price?-They might be obliged to take a lower price, although they did not know it.

14,160. But I have been told today that the Shetland people are a very intelligent class, and they would surely have intelligence enough to discover that they were getting a lower price than they might get for their produce?-Some of them are intelligent, and no doubt they would discover that.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, examined.

14,161. Are you a clerk in the employment of Mr. Leask?-I am.

14,162. How long have you been in his service?-About nineteen years.

14,163. Have you been principally concerned with the engagement and settling with seamen employed in the Greenland whale fishing?-Principally, of late, since the settlement at the Custom House was commenced. That was five years ago.

14,164. Were you not employed in that way before?-Yes; not altogether, but along with others.

14,165. Before that time, the accounts of the men, I understand, were always settled at Mr. Leask's office?-Always.

14,166. And the men were paid merely the balance in cash?- They were paid the balance, but they had to get cash during the currency of their account besides that. They always got advances of cash in the course of the year if they wanted them.

14,167. The balance that was paid to them at the end in cash was the settlement for their wages and their first payment of oil-money?-Yes.

14,168. Was the settlement for the final payment of oil-money generally made at a later period?-Always at a later period.

14,169. Was there always a settlement before the last payment of oil-money became due?-Always, except when they happened to be in debt.

14,170. They might be in debt to a greater amount than anything that was due to them?-They might, but of course, if a man had money to get, he was sure to come forward when he required it.

14,171. Were the accounts which were run with the men at that time larger than you now allow them to incur?-I should say not.

[Page 354]

14,172. Are there some men even now who are indebted at settlement to the full amount of their wages and oil-money?- Very few.

14,173. But that does occur?-It may be the case with some of the young hands.

14,174. Does that happen now as often as formerly?-I daresay it does. It depends on the success of the voyage; but we are rather more particular now than we used to be.

14,175. In what way are you more particular now?-We know better what time the voyage will occupy and we always keep within the mark as far as possible.

14,176. Is there less security now for getting your money paid at the proper time than there was formerly?-I cannot say that we have experienced that.

14,177. Previous to 1867, you said the settlement of the men's accounts generally took place before the last payment of oil-money was due?-Yes, always.

14,178. Was that not so only in the greater number of cases?-It was always the case. The final payment was only a few shillings in general, and it was usually a considerable time before the owners advised us what amount of oil the vessel had turned out; so that if a man had the bulk of his wages to get, he generally got them a long time before the second payment of oil-money came.

14,179. Was the second payment usually made before the man engaged for another voyage if he was going?-In some cases; but if the man lived at a considerable distance from Lerwick, he would not come in for the few shillings which were due him for his second payment until he was about to engage again.

14,180. How was that second payment made? Was it in money, or generally in goods?-If the man had the money coming to him, it was usually paid in money; but sometimes he may have got a little advance on his second payment.

14,181. If that was the case it would be in his account?-Yes, a continuation of his previous account; but we did not care much about advancing on second payments, because they were so uncertain. The vessel might not turn out nearly so much as was expected.

14,182. You are aware that a new system was introduced about 1867 or 1868?-Yes.

14,183. And since that time you have been employed in going up to the Custom House to settle with the men?-Yes.

14,184. Do you take a quantity of cash up with you and hand it over to the men in presence of the superintendent?-Yes.

14,185. Have you, since that system began, invariably taken up your ledgers containing the men's accounts, or any note of the amount of their accounts, with you?-Of course we have never taken up the books.

14,186. Did you at any time take any notes or abstracts of the men's accounts?-I always took a note of the sum which each man had to get.

14,187. Was that a note of the sum which each man had to get for wages and oil-money?-No; it was a note of the actual amount due to the men, because each man had an account of wages furnished to him previously.

14,188. Had he received that from the captain?-No; the account of wages was made up by the agent on shore from the captain's store-book.

14,189. Is that account of wages always made up by the agent and handed to the men before settlement?-Yes.

14,190. Is it not sometimes taken up with you to the settlement?- The man always carries it up with him.

14,191. When you go up to the Custom House, are you provided with any note of the amount of the man's account due to Mr. Leask?-In the first years, I think we had that occasionally.

14,192. In what form did you take that up?-Just slip.

14,193. Was that a note of all the items in the account?-No

14,194. It was just a note of the total sum due to Mr. Leask?-Yes.

14,195. Have you not done so since the first year?-I think not.

14,196. When did you last take such a slip with you to the Custom House?-I think not after the first year, so far as I can recollect.

14,197. The first year of what?-The first year, say, 1867; I think I have not done it since that time.

14,198. Can you not tax your memory so far as to say whether or not you had it in 1870?-I did not have it in 1870; I am quite sure of that.

14,199. Nor in 1871?-Nor in 1871.

14,200. May you have had it in 1869?-I think not.

14,201. Was the last time you had it in 1868?-To the best of my recollection I think it was.

14,202. May you have had it in 1869, although you don't remember?-I think not, but I cannot be quite positive.

14,203. But you are quite clear about 1870, that you had no note whatever of the men's accounts with you, except what was entered in the account of wages?-Yes. I did not require it then. It could do no good.

14,204. Why was it required in 1868?-Because sometimes the men settled their accounts at the Custom House.

14,205. Would that be done often?-Sometimes; but not as a rule, I think.

14,206. When these regulations were introduced, and you first went up to the Custom House to settle, was it not intended that all the accounts should be settled there and then?-That was the regulation.

14,207. Was it intended that all Mr. Leask's accounts should be paid at the same time that the men got their money handed over in presence of the superintendent?-There was no formal proposal about that.

14,208. Was it not done in some cases?-In some cases it was, when the men agreed to do it.

14,209. Did the superintendent object to that?-He did not object. The whole money was paid down to the men, and sometimes they gave back what they knew they had to give back.

14,210. Would that be done in one half of the cases?-I could not speak to a proportion.

14,211. When they did not hand back then what was due to Mr. Leask, what was done?-They handed it back when they came down to the office afterwards.

14,212. Do they come down to the office now and pay their accounts after being settled with at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,213. Do you settle with five or six or a dozen of them at a time, as the case may be?-Yes, any number, from one up to a dozen, or perhaps more.

14,214. Is the settlement with these men after they have got their cash always carried out and finished on the same day at Mr. Leask's office?-Yes, invariably.

14,215. Do they come straight down from the Custom House to the office and pay their accounts there?-They generally come in the course of the day.

14,216. Do they come down along with you?-If it is only one man who has been settled with, perhaps we will come down together, and perhaps not, just as it happens. I have no fear for them coming down. I never bother my head about them after I give them the money.

14,217. Do you leave them to come down or not as they please?- Decidedly.

14,218. Is there never a black sheep to whom you have to suggest the propriety of coming straight down?-The men know they have the money to pay, and they look upon it as a just debt.

14,219. Is there not a note kept if a man fails to come down?-We are not likely to forget that. There is no note of it kept.

14,220. Do you note the fact that you have settled with him for his wages and oil-money?-Yes. The account is squared at once as soon as we come down from the Custom House.

14,221. Do you not note the fact in some form or [Page 355] other, that the man has not come down to settle his account when he has failed to do so?-No, the book would show that without any note. I may say, however, that I have scarcely ever had a case of that kind, except it may be one.

14,222. Was that Robert Grains?-Yes; and even he did come down ultimately and settle his account. He was settled with along with about a dozen others, and they all went down. Some of them had been settled with before I came down from the Custom House, but he did not come until I came myself.

14,223. Did he come down with you?-No; he came down himself. I believe the other lads induced him to come back to the shop and settle his account.

14,224. Had he at first refused to do so?-He had been telling the lads that he was going to keep the money or most of the money. I think they said he wanted to go right away and never come near the shop at all, but they induced him to come.

14,225. Did he give any reason for wanting to go away?-Nothing, except that he wanted the money for some other purpose.

14,226. Was his account for goods equal to the whole amount of his wages?-He had about £1 to get.

14,227. That means that he had all his money to hand over to you except £1?-Yes.

14,228. Did you speak to him on the subject?-I did. I asked him if he meant to swindle us out of the money for the outfit that he got to enable him to go to Greenland.

14,229. Was it at the Custom House you said that to him?-No, it was at the office after he had come down. He said no, but that he required money to pay for a boat or to buy a boat, or something of that kind.

14,230. Did that happen on the day of settlement?-Yes.

14,231. Had you understood before that he was intending to go away without paying your account?-No, I had no idea of it.

14,232. Then how did you happen to ask him that question?-He came back to the office after he came out from the Custom House, and he was going to give back part of the money, but he wanted to keep more than he actually had to get after paying Mr. Leask's account.

14,233. But how did you know that he required persuasion to induce him to come back and pay his account?-I recollect the other lads telling me that they had induced him to come back.

14,234. Had they told you about that before Grains came down?- I scarcely think so. I think there were several of them there along with him when I came down.

14,235. Did he come down from the Custom House along with you?-No.

14,236. Was he at the office when you came down from the Custom House?-I am not quite sure whether he was actually there when I came down, but most of that crew were discharged that day. They had been landed the day before, and most of them were discharged on the day after they landed.

14,237. I don't quite understand how you knew about Grains having been unwilling to pay his account?-I knew it when he came to the office to give back the money that I had paid him at the Custom House.

14,238. Did he refuse to give you back the money?-He did; not all, but part of it.

14,239. Did he want to pay only a portion of his account?-Yes.

14,240. Did he say that to you when he came to the office?-Yes.

14,241. Was that the first intimation you had got of his intention to keep part of the money?-I think so.

14,242. Did you object to that, and tell him he must pay the whole?-I did.

14,243. Did you intimate what the consequences would be if he did not?-Yes; I daresay I told him that we would pull him up. I considered that we had run a considerable risk in giving him an outfit for his first year at Greenland, and that we were entitled to get the advance repaid, because we might never see him again.

14,244. Have you had occasion to advise any of the men on other occasions as to the propriety of paying agents' accounts, or giving them similar advice to what you gave in the case of Grains?-No; I think that was the only case which has occurred out of many hundreds.

14,245. Have the men always walked down quietly enough to your office?-Yes.

14,246. And often in company with you?-Very often. Perhaps, if there was one, he came back with me; but, as a rule, I would often stay behind for a little, or go down to the office by some other way.

14,247. Then possibly the men may have gone to the office before you?-They often did.

14,248. When you had a batch of them at the Custom House, did you not send some of them down to the office direct, while you waited to finish your settlement with the others?-They were settled with one by one; and they went away as they were settled with.

14,249. But as they were settled with, did you not send them down to the office?-They went of their own accord.

14,250. Did you never tell them to go to the office?-They knew to go.

14,251. Did you never tell them?-I have seen me telling them to go as soon as possible, because I wanted them to be settled with and away before I came down. Mr. Robertson generally would be waiting for them, and he might have to go out.

14,252. Do you mean that Mr. Robertson would be expecting them?-Yes.

14,253. And he might have other engagements which he had to attend to as soon as their business was over?-Yes.

14,254. Therefore I suppose you may often have had occasion to tell them to go down to the shop direct from the Custom House?- I may have told them to go as soon as possible.

14,255. Did you not always do so?-No.

14,256. Did you not always tell them so when you thought it was necessary?-No.

14,257. Do you mean that you may have thought it necessary for them to go to the shop and settle, and that yet you refrained from telling them so?-I never thought much about it at all. I just gave them the money; and sometimes I would tell them to go to the shop as soon as possible, because Mr. Robertson would be waiting for them. Sometimes that was about the dinner-hour, and very often they would not be there until I came down myself. I would be engaged settling with them up till three o'clock.

14,258. Did you consider that it was not necessary on every occasion to tell them to go back to the shop?-Yes.

14,259. Was that because the men understood quite well that they were to go to the shop and settle their accounts?-The men understood that quite well. They understood they had got the money that was due to them from the shop, and they understood that in general they had accounts in the shop for cash or goods, and sometimes for advances to their families, and they required no persuasion to go and repay these sums when they had got their money.

14,260. Did they know that they were expected to go down to the shop?-They were expected to go.

14,261. But did they know that they were expected?-They knew it.

14,262. So that, although they might have had debts due to other merchants, they were expected to go down and pay Mr. Leask in the first instance?-Yes.

14,263. And you expected that, although those debts to other merchants might have been incurred earlier than Mr. Leask's?- The debt contracted on the voyage was the first debt to be settled, and it was always understood that that debt had first to be paid, because it was all incurred during the voyage.

14,264. You mean that it had been incurred for the purpose of the voyage, and you held that you had a [Page 356] prior claim on the proceeds of that voyage for the amount of your account, just as a merchant has a lien on the supplies he furnishes to a shop?-Yes.

14,265. Would you have objected to the men going away and paying the earlier accounts before they paid Mr. Leask's?-Of course, if they paid them out of that money.

14,266. Had you instructions from Mr. Leask, or Mr. Robertson, or any one in Mr. Leask's employment, to see that the men did come down and pay their accounts?-I had no such instructions.

14,267. Did you consider that a part of your duty?-I did not consider it to be any part of my duty at all. If I had a dozen men to settle with, I settled with them one after another, and they went away. I did not tell them to stay there until I came with them, or follow them down by any means.

14,268. Was it no part of your duty to warn a man who was going away without paying, that he had first to settle his account at the shop?-No, I never saw a man who went away without paying.

14,269. But suppose the case of a man who did so: was it any part of your duty to remind him of the debt which he was due to Mr. Leask?-No. They did not require any reminding. They knew quite well about it.

14,270. Why did you cease to settle with the men in the Custom House after 1868?-Because the shipping master objected, and would not allow it to be done.

14,271. Was it to you, or in your presence, that he took that objection?-Yes, I was present.

14,272. Did he take the objection in any particular case when a settlement of that kind was going on with the men?-No, there was no particular case.

14,273. Did he do so at a time when you were settling with a man?-Yes; either with a man, or two or three men, I forget which.

14,274. What took place then?-The men just went to the office.

14,275. Did you remonstrate with the superintendent?-No.

14,276. You just went down to the office with the men, and settled with them there?-The men went to the office, and I finished my business at the Custom House and went down too.

14,277. Did you consider it a grievance to be prevented from settling with the men in the Custom House?-If the men were agreeable for it, I thought there was nothing wrong in it. It was entirely with their concurrence that it was done.

14,278. Is there anything else you wish to say wish to say?-I wish to say that I have examined the books, and I find that Mr. Jack Williamson's rent at Ulsta was not advanced after Mr. Leask purchased the property. I now show the valuation roll of 1860, where it is entered at £8, 10s., and in 1871 it is entered at the same sum. That rent included the farm and all accommodation-the shop, beach, booth, and everything.

14,279. I see he was tenant of an additional subject in 1871, for which he paid a rent of 10s.; and of grazing park at Ulsta at a rent of £6?-Yes; but the 10s. includes the dwelling-house, shop, farm, and all accommodation he had about the place.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ADAM TAIT, examined.

14,280. You are a shopman to Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I am.

14,281. Did you purchase a hap lately from Margaret Jamieson, Quarff, who has been examined today?-Mr. Sinclair purchased it, and I settled with her for it the time she sold it.

14,282. When was that?-About three days ago. It was a long plaid she sold.

14,283. What was the price of it?-20s. in goods; and that was paid.

14,284. To what extent did you supply her with goods?-I gave her 19s. 6d. worth of goods and 6d. in cash. She wanted 3s. in cash. I told her the bargain was made in goods, and I could not give it to her in cash. Besides, there was no cash in the drawer at the time. Then she thought of something else she wanted, and I borrowed 6d. from the clerk in the end gave it to her.

14,285. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. 6d. in cash it would be charged as 1s. 9d. against her?-I believe I did say that she would be charged 2d. in the shilling if she wanted cash, as the bargain had been made in goods.

14,286. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. in cash it would be charged as 1s. 3d. against her?-No. I merely said it would be 2d. in the shilling. I might have given her the cash she asked if we had had it, but there was no change in the shop at the time, and I had to borrow the sixpence that I gave her.

14,287. On what day was that?-I think it was on Wednesday last, but I am not certain, and about twelve or one o'clock in the day. I recollect the transaction very well, as the woman seemed to be ill-pleased when she went out.

14,288. Is it a frequent thing to tell a woman who asks for cash; that there is no cash in the shop?-No; that does not often happen.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

14,289. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to the evidence which has just been given?-I wish to say that it often happens that we have no small change in the shop, unless we get change for £1 and any cash that we get during the day is frequently given out again for goods before night. Therefore it is no evasion to say that there is no cash in the shop, because it is often the fact.

14,290. That happens in a great many shops, and it may happen more frequently in a shop where the cash transactions are few and barter transactions prevail?-Yes; it happens more frequently in that case.

<Adjourned>.

LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 29, 1872

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Mrs. CATHERINE WILLIAMSON, recalled.

14,291. I understand you wish to make a correction on the evidence you gave on the first day of this inquiry?-Yes. I stated that I had sold a shawl to Mr. Laurenson; but I should have said it was to Mr. George Laurence, Commercial Street, Lerwick, and not to Mr. Arthur Laurenson.

14,292. Was the rest of your evidence correct?-Yes.

[Page 357]

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, recalled.

14,293. Do you wish to make any addition to your former evidence?-Yes. I wish to say with regard to the Accountant to the Board of Trade's report, that I consider it unjust to the agents concerned in the Greenland trade, and I concur generally in all that was said by Mr. William Robertson on that point.

14,294. Is there any particular fact in that report, apart from matters of opinion, which you think is incorrectly stated?- The report commences: 'In accordance with my instructions, I paid special attention to the circumstances attending the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels, great difficulty and delay having been experienced by the Board of Trade in getting the releases for such voyages completed within anything like a reasonable time.' I do not consider that to be correct. The Board of Trade never fixed a time for the releases to be completed, and consequently the men do not come for their settlement until it suits their own convenience.

14,295. Do you mean that before 1868 no rule existed on that subject?-There is no time fixed even now for the men to come.

14,296. Does not the third head of the regulations provide that, when the men are landed, the master shall deliver the store-book, and that the balances due shall be paid in presence of the superintendent?-The master does deliver the store-book when the crew are landed, but the regulation does not say that the men are to appear immediately before the superintendent. If they would remain in town, that would be done; but they prefer going home, especially when they are not required by the regulations to remain.

14,297. The Merchant Shipping Act provides that the master or owner shall pay the wages of every seaman within three days after the cargo has been delivered, or within five days after the seaman's discharge, whichever first happens?-These are the terms of the Act; but that never was the rule in the Greenland trade, because the men are landed in any part of Shetland the ship first comes to, and the men never come forward to Lerwick to be settled with until it suits them to come.

14,298. I don't know that Mr. Hamilton lays the blame upon the agents for the delay in getting the releases completed?-Not in that sentence, but he does so subsequently in his report. He says, 'When the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion of the crews should not be settled with at once.'

14,299. Do you say that that is not for the agent's interest?-I say that it is not. It is not for his interest to delay the settlement, and the settlement is not delayed by him.

14,300. Is it not for the agent's interest to have the money in his hands as long as possible?-Perhaps if he has the money in his hands, he may make a few shillings of interest; but when the men come forward individually to settle, there is more time spent in making the settlement than any profit he can make can cover. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again, and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That statement is not consistent with fact.

14,301. Is it not true, as you have already stated, that the seamen do hand back to the agent the money which they have got?-Yes, but it is not true that they are indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount.

14,302. You think the amount of debt is not generally equal to the amount payable in wages?-I am quite sure it is not.

14,303. Was it, at any time in your experience, common for a man to have an amount of debt to the agent equal to the amount of his wages and oil-money?-Very often, when they had made a bad voyage, the younger hands would be in debt.

14,304. Mr. Hamilton says, in another part of his report: 'For this purpose to engage the men at Lerwick, they employ agents in Lerwick, who get, I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men;' is there anything incorrect in that, in point of fact?-It is quite correct that the agents have little direct profit from their agency. The remuneration is quite inadequate for the amount of work and expense connected with the trade. Then he says, 'These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act as land agents for others.' There are only four agents altogether, and there are only two of them who are proprietors of any quantity of land. The others do not act as land agents, so far as ever I heard. 'Many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage.' That applies chiefly to the young hands, who require extra clothing when going to such a cold climate, and they get it from the agents. 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents.' I never saw that. It is not done in Mr. Leask's business. Of course I cannot speak with certainty for the others, but am pretty certain it is not done in any case.

14,305. In your experience the seaman takes no allotment note at all, so that the only advances which are got during his absence are those which are made through the agent in the shape of supplies to his family, without any allotment note being required?-Yes. We have always done so.

14,306. But the agent is quite aware that no allotment note has been granted?-Yes.

14,307. So that the effect is just the same as if the allotment note had been given to the agent?-It is not quite the same in settling with them, because we have to pay the whole money to the men; whereas, if an allotment had been granted, it would have been deducted.

14,308. But if there is no allotment note made out to the man, and given to his wife or any of his friends, the agent has not to pay the money away?-No.

14,309. So that he is in perfect safety to make advances in the shape of any supplies which may be required during the man's absence?-He is quite safe to do that if the man pays him back at the end of the voltage.

14,310. At least he is in greater safety than if the man's friends were in a position to draw part of his wages during his absence, because he knows that the wages cannot be spent?-Yes. If the man's family have a note, that is all the advance they require in general; but as it is when a family have a weekly allowance, I should say they get about one half of their allowance in cash.

14,311. Do the families have a weekly allowance from the agent?-In some cases.

14,312. Is that done by private arrangement?-Yes.

14,313. Are these families residing in Lerwick, or mostly in the country?-Mostly in Lerwick. Families residing in the country only send in occasionally for anything they may require, but they are not by any means bound to do it.

14,314. But is it a common thing for the families of men residing in Lerwick, or near it, to get a weekly advance in provisions or in money?-It is quite common.

14,315. Is it mostly in provisions or mostly in money that that advance is given?-I think it is about one half in money. They always get some money.

14,316. Is that entered in the man's account?-Yes. Then it is not correct to say that a man who wants to take his outfit from any shopkeeper is practically debarred from doing so. He can do so if he likes.

14,317. Does he ever do it?-There is no doubt he does.

14,318. Have you ever known any case of a man doing so?-Yes, plenty. We know that when a man does not get goods from us, he must get them somewhere else.

[Page 358]

14,319. But he may have had an outfit before, and did not require a fresh one for that voyage?-He may.

14,320. Have you ever known a man who required an outfit for a voyage taking it from any agent but the one who engaged him?- Yes.

14,321. Can you name any case of that kind?-I could not exactly name a case.

14,322. Could you show me any case in your books in which the man has not got some outfit from you?-Not very many, I think. On short voyages to the sealing, a considerable number of the men would not require it. Men who had been going there for years, and who were only going on a short voyage, would be well enough provided with clothes. Generally men who get good wages are all provided with their necessary outfit.

14,323. But you think you could show me very few cases in your books in which a man did not require some outfit and did not get it from you?-On long voyages perhaps there are not many.

14,324. Did you ever supply an outfit to a man going on a whaling voyage upon the engagement of any of the other agents?-I think not exactly an outfit; but we have sold them individual articles.

14,325. Did you ever do that on credit?-I daresay we have.

14,326. Do you know that you have?-Yes.

14,327. In what case?-I could not exactly name a case, because if a man comes in wanting to buy anything we sell it to him, if the other agent did not have it, or he did not choose to take it from him. I know that has been the case both with us and with others.

14,328. Have you run an account with the man for that?-If he was well known to us, we would have no objection to give him credit.

14,329. But can you name the case of any man who was engaged for the whaling by another agent and who received credit from you?-I could not name a case. It is done just in the ordinary way of trade, and we would not pay any attention to a case like that. We could not be expected to recollect where every customer was going.

14,330. Is it not the case that every man who engages with you does take so much of his outfit as he requires from Mr. Leask's shop?-I think that is very generally the case; but he does it because he chooses to do it, and because, I suppose, he thinks he will be as well served there as by going elsewhere. With regard to the report, again, I say that the greater proportion of the men are settled with in a reasonable time.

14,331. Do you mean within six months?-The greater proportion of them are settled with in one month.

14,332. That is the case now?-Yes.

14,333. But formerly the time was considerably greater, was it not?-I don't think there was much difference. The men came then when it suited them, and they do the same now, except when they are all landed in Lerwick at one time, and choose to stay few days in town to get the settlement carried through. They are not bound to a day now more than they were then; but the releases and official papers in the Custom House can prove the proportion of men discharged within the month.

14,334. Mr. Robertson showed me some accounts with Greenland whaling men in which there was a charge for insurance upon outfits: is that an arrangement made by you with the men?-Yes.

14,335. Have you explained to them the nature of the charge, and why it was made before entering it in your books against them?- Yes; we have been doing that for the last fifteen years at least. If the vessel is lost, then the men don't pay for the outfit; it is paid by the insurance.

14,336. Mr. Leask is also an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, and there is a charge of 3s. made at the beginning of each man's account for a payment to that Fund?-Yes.

14,337. Does that 3s. cover the loss of clothing?-They get that in addition. When the vessel is lost, the man gets an allowance for clothing, and also the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund. He gets the allowance for clothing in this way: that he pays nothing for the goods if the vessel is lost, and then he gets the allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in addition, and is sent home free if he is landed in any part of the kingdom.

14,338. Therefore that is a double insurance?-Yes.

14,339. If a man is lost, his widow, in return for the 3s., gets an annuity or some allowance?-Yes. The amount of it depends on the number of years he has subscribed, and the number of his family. It varies considerably; but she gets an allowance at first, and generally a small annual grant.

14,340. Is that 3s. paid in every case when the men are going to Greenland?-It is such a small payment, and they have experienced so much benefit from it, that they never object to it now.

14,341. I suppose that charge is entered in a man's account as a matter of course?-Yes.

14,342. You say that if a man who subscribes that 3s. loses his outfit, or his boat, or anything, that is covered by the insurance, and he is entitled to a certain payment, which is made by the agents?-Yes.

14,343. Is that payment always made in cash?-Always.

14,344. How long is it since it has been universally made in cash at your agency?-It has always been made in cash, so far as I had to do with it.

14,345. Do you remember of any sums of a few pounds in cash being paid from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-There are often payments of that kind.

14,346. Do you remember any case of it man being refused payment of his allowance in cash?-No.

14,347. Or being asked to take goods?-No, I don't recollect any such case.

14,348. Do you remember the case of a man named Williamson from Coningsburgh having a claim against Mr. Leask, as agent for the Society, in respect of a loss which he had sustained, and falling within the conditions of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I don't recollect anything about the case or about the man.

14,349. Do you remember any case where the amount due from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund was put to the credit of a person insured, in order to reduce the debt due by him to Mr. Leask?- No, I don't recollect any such case.

14,350. Can you say that that has never been done?-I cannot say that exactly. Perhaps if the man chose to put the money to his account it would be done.

14,351. But can you say it has never been done where the man did not choose to put the money to his account?-It has never been done where the man did not choose, so far as I know.

14,352. Do you know any case in which Mr. Leask has asked the man to do it, or has proposed to do it, and the man has resisted?- No.

14,353. Is an allowance of that kind sometimes put to the credit of a man who has an account in Mr. Leask's books, and taken out in goods in the course of the year?-It may be in some cases.

14,354. Is it not usually the case when a sum of that kind falls due that it is entered to the man's credit?-That is not usually the case, because nobody knows whether it will be paid or not, or whether the man will have a claim to receive money.

14,355. But when you know that it is due, and that it is to be paid, and the man happens to have an account, is the amount not just entered in that account and credited to the man?-It may be in some cases, but it is only when a man is wrecked that he is entitled to any allowance from the Society; we don't know when he is to be wrecked, and therefore he cannot get advances on the faith of a claim against the Society.

14,356. I am not speaking about advances on the faith of a claim; but when the money is due, is it not generally put into the man's account?-Not generally, but there may have been a case or two of that kind.

14,357. Is it generally handed over to him in cash?-Generally.

[Page 359]

14,358. Even when a man has an account, and when the balance of that account is against him?-The man perhaps will not require it to be handed over to him if he had an account and wished the amount of his debt to be reduced by putting that to it. In that case there would be very little occasion for a transfer of the cash, but I can scarcely recollect any cases of that kind.

14,359. I am not asking whether the man wishes it or not, I am asking whether it is ever done, or whether it is generally done?-I should say it is not generally done. I would say it is almost never done.

14,360. How many of these payments have you to make in the course of a year?-In some years there are very few.

14,361. Will there sometimes be a dozen?-Perhaps there may, but I could not say, without the books.

14,362. And you say that out of the dozen payments which you make, one half of them will pass through the men's accounts?- No, I should not say that.

14,363. Should you say that three out of every dozen did so?-No, I should not even say that.

14,364. Should you say that one in every dozen passed through the men's accounts?-I might say one, but I could not be sure. It might be less, or it might be none at all.

14,365. Might it not be more?-It is not a regular business transaction at all, and it is very seldom that such a thing ever enters the accounts. It is a present payment for an accident happening to a man, and he just gets the money, and there is no more about it; but it might happen occasionally that he applied it towards payment of a debt.

14,366. The premium or subscription of 3s. universally passes into the man's account?-Yes.

14,367. I cannot quite see why the payment of a policy should not also go into the man's account if he has one?-It is only when a man is wrecked that such it payment is to be made. There are many men who have been paying for twenty or thirty years, and have never had occasion to claim against the Society, while there are others who have.

14,368. But if a man happens to have an account running with Mr. Leask, do you say that the payment is made to him in cash rather than put in to the account?-No, I don't say that, because the man might make no difficulty in applying it to his account, if he had one; but we are applying for men from different parts of the country who have no account with us, and in these cases the money is paid over at once.

14,369. In the majority of cases in which the money is paid through you when it is due, is it not to the men who have paid their premium through you?-By no means. We issue a great many tickets to men who are not in our employment at all,-men going south, and fishermen on the islands. I think we are generally called upon to make applications in cases of loss in preference to the other agents, and that money is paid over to the men at once.

14,370. Then do you say it is the case that the money is entered in the man's account whenever he has an account with you?-If the man to whom the money was to be paid had an account, it might probably be put to that account; but of course it would only be done with the man's concurrence.

14,371. Did you ever know any man object to that being done?-I cannot say that I ever did.

14,372. Are you sure that you never did?-Yes, I am sure.

14,373. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to correct the statement made in the report, that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. I say that is not the fact.

14,374. Is it not the fact that that is the interest of the agent?-It may be the interest of the agent, but it is never done.

14,375. The report only says that it is the interest of the agent: it does not state that he does it?-I think it does. It says that the man is indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount, and that it is the interest of the agent to delay settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. What I object to in that statement is the impression conveyed by it, that all the men are in debt to an equal or greater extent than their earnings. I think that is the way in which the statement would naturally be read; but, as a rule, the men do not run accounts after they come home until they settle, and then they will only buy what they require. They are never importuned to buy or to take goods, nor is the settlement delayed for that purpose.

14,376. You say the men are never importuned to buy anything. Are they not asked at settlement if they want anything?-No. Their money is paid them as soon as they call for it, without any demur.

14,377. I know it is; but are they not asked at that time if they want to take any goods?-After they have got their money we may ask them if they want anything; and if they are as well served by us as elsewhere, sometimes they do buy some goods.

14,378. I suppose in a number of cases the men are quite ready to take what they want from your shop, and to pay for it with the cash they have got?-Yes.*

*Mr Jamieson afterwards put in the following Return in supplement of his evidence:- RETURN relative to the Discharge of Greenland Seamen from Vessels for which Mr. JOSEPH LEASK was Agent. Year 1871.

Ship's Name and Voyage No. of men Date of Place of En-gaged Landing Landing

a Camperdown, sealing voyage 33 Apr. 30 Lerwick b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 Apr. 17 Lerwick c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 Apr. 17 Lerwick d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 Apr. 21 Scalloway e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 31 Apr. 17 Lerwick f Victor, sealing voyage 30 June 1 Lerwick g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 19 July 21 near Scalloway h Total 206 62 52 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 20 Oct. 26 Lerwick j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 Oct. 26 Lerwick k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 14 Oct. 29 Scalloway l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 26 Nov. 11 Lerwick <via> Longhope m Total 79

Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in Apr. May June July a Camperdown, sealing voyage 25 b Polynia, sealing voyage 12 11 c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 15 3 d Narwhal, sealing voyage 13 9 e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 22 4 f Victor, sealing voyage 19 5 g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 4 h Total 62 52 19 9 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 14 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage m Total 79

Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in

Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec a Camperdown, sealing voyage 3 1 1 2 b Polynia, sealing voyage 3 6 2 c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 10 2 d Narwhal, sealing voyage 2 2 3 e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 2 1 f Victor, sealing voyage 19 4 1 g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 10 1 1 h Total 33 4 7 13 5 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 8 10 2 j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 13 1 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 21 5 m Total 8 63 8

Ship's Name and Voyage Not Dis- Totals Remarks. charged at Year's End

a Camperdown, sealing voyage 1 33 157 men returned in April, of whom b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 95 were landed in one day. 114 were c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 discharged by the end of May. d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 I requested the rest to return for e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 31 discharge not later than August, when f Victor, sealing voyage 30 the ling fishing terminated. g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 19 h Total 2* 206 * The only cases I ever had. i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 20 j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 71 out of 79 landed in October and k Narwhal, Davis Straits November were discharged in a month. whaling voyage 14 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 26 m Total 79

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, WILLIAM BRUCE TULLOCH, examined.

14,379. You are a merchant and shipping agent in Lerwick?-I am.

14,380. You have been engaged as an agent for Greenland [Page 360]whaling vessels for some time?-Yes, on my own account, or as a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., for five years.

14,381. Before that, you were in the employment of Mr. Leask?- Yes.

14,382. I understand you desire to make some statement with regard to the evidence which has already been led upon this subject?-Yes. I heard a part of the evidence of Mr. Wm. Robertson; and some parts of what I heard I could not agree with. In the first place, with reference to the handing of lists of balances at the end of the year by one agent to another, he said that practice had been discontinued for a number of years. So far as I know, that is not the case.

14,383. Does that practice still exist?-I know nothing to the contrary.

14,384. To what do you refer?-To the balances that may be due by men to the agents.

14,385. Have you in your business had such lists handed to you, or have you handed them to other agents in the trade?-Yes.

14,386. Is that still done?-It has been done within the last five years. It was the only legitimate way of keeping before you the men who were in debt. When they went from one agent to another, that was the only way in which we could know where they were, or whether they were still continuing to go in the trade; but, of course, when any balance was recovered, it was always with the entire concurrence of the indebted person.

14,387. Do you mean that when any balance was paid by an agent on his behalf it was with his concurrence?-It was always understood to be with his entire concurrence.

14,388. I suppose the practice you refer to came to this, that an agent to whom a man was in debt was able to recover from the agent who engaged him for the subsequent year in the Greenland voyage the amount of his debt or a part of it?-Yes, that was the object of it.

14,389. And the agent so paying became the creditor of the seaman, and trusted to be repaid out of the man's earnings from the voyage which was begun?-We might have a list of perhaps half a dozen men from an agent, and it might happen that only one of these men had been out for that agent for that year. If the man had the means to pay and was willing to pay, then of course he left it with the agent to do so.

14,390. If he had not the means to pay, was it usual for the agent engaging him for that year to advance the money?-Never. I never knew of a case where a debt was paid in that way, unless when the man had money to receive at the end of the voyage.

14,391. Then, at the end of the voyage does the agent receiving that list retain the money?-He would retain the money, and give a note to the man, or send the money with the man.

14,392. Would he send the man down to your office?-The man would often come himself, and sometimes be the bearer of a note stating that he left that money with the agent.

14,393. Has that been done since the regulations of 1868 came into force?-The regulations were in 1867.

14,394. The copy I have is dated 1868?-1867 was the first year that the men had to be paid at the Shipping Office.

14,395. Was there a previous notice to that I have got, which is dated February 1868?-I am not quite sure; but if there was one, I think it must have been something similar.

14,396. The change of procedure may have taken place without a notice; but you say that there was a change made in 1867?-Yes. That was the first year when we were obliged to pay the whole at the Shipping Office.

14,397. Have the lists you refer to ever passed since that new system was introduced?-Yes.

14,398. Can you remember the last time when such a list was handed to you?-I have a case here in point. In a book of the 'Arctic,' which I now produce there is an entry in the account of Magnus Thomson, dated 29th April 1868, 'By value in account with Hay & Co., 10s. 3d.'

14,399. The man was credited in the account for a sealing voyage with 10s. 3d., paid by Hay & Co. to you, the balance having been against him in his account with you for a previous sealing voyage to the extent of 11s. 9d.?-Yes.

14,400. Was that done in consequence of your handing Hay & Co. a note showing that balance against the man?-Yes.

14,401. Can you say whether any such cases have occurred since 1868?-I don't recollect any other case.

14,402. Have you ever handed such lists to Mr. Joseph Leask, or any person in his establishment, or received them from his house?-I went along one day and mentioned the names of two men to one of Mr. Leask's men, but I had no list.

14,403. Who was the person to whom you mentioned the names?-Mr. John Jamieson, the brother of the young man who was examined just now. I told him the names of two men who were indebted to me, and asked him if he would be kind enough to mention it to them. A day or two afterwards one of these men went to settle with Mr. Leask at the Shipping Office, and was discharged, and shortly afterwards he came and paid me a sum to account. I may mention that I was aware they could not keep the amount off the man's account; but I mentioned the matter to Mr. Leask's people, because I knew they would have an opportunity of seeing the men when they came to be discharged, and I wished them to remind them of their debt.

14,404. I suppose it was expected that if any case should occur in which a debt was due to Mr. Leask, you would do the same good office for him?-Yes.

14,405. Have you done so for Mr. Leask?-I am not aware that I have.

14,406. Have the names of any persons been suggested by Mr. Leask's people to you, in order that you might, if they were engaged by you, remind them of their debt to him?-Not so far as I recollect at present.

14,407. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. Robertson?-When you referred to the case of a man not having settled for his second payment until the time when he engaged for another year's voyage, you asked him if, when he got that second payment and his first month's advance for the following voyage, he left much of that money with the agent. Mr. Robertson stated that in many cases he did; but in all my experience, which has now extended over thirty years, I seldom ever saw a man leave any part of his first month's advance and his second payment both at the same time with the agent. If he did, it was an exceptional case.

14,408. Did he usually transmit it to his family for their maintenance during his absence, or spend it at the time in supplies for them?-Yes; in the case of a married man, I think the most of it was sent home, to be a provision for his family during his absence.

14,409. Is it usual for the man, at the same time, to send home a certain amount of supplies for his family upon an account?-Very often that was the case.

14,410. Is it not the case now?-It is not done to the same extent now, in consequence of the recent Board of Trade regulations, because the men don't get nearly so many advances.

14,411. Is the agent not willing to trust them to the same extent now?-No; they do not get the same sort of supplies now which they did formerly, which was generally meal.

14,412. But does the agent still afford them supplies of another kind?-He gives them an outfit for the voyage.

14,413. Does he not generally go beyond that in the supplies which he gives to them?-Not to anything like the same extent as formerly.

14,414. In fact he restricts their credit?-Very much.

14,415. Would you say that the advances given in that way are now reduced by one half?-Fully. Another statement which Mr. Robertson made was, that [Page 361] their books don't show the cash paid when the men are discharged at the Shipping Office.

14,416. I understand from what Mr. Robertson stated, and I think I saw from the books themselves, that the books still show the amount due to the man after settling his account with Mr. Leask,- that is to say, that the system of book-keeping which was in use before 1867 is still continued in the shop?-Yes.

14,417. The cash is actually paid in presence of the superintendent, but no settlement takes place in the books until afterwards?-Yes.

14,418. Has your system been changed since 1867?-Our system has not been changed; only, so far as I know, the practice of paying the whole balance to a seaman was not put in force until 1871. We had then ceased to be agents.

14,419. Had you ceased to be agents in 1871?-Yes.

14,420. In what way was the system carried on until 1871?-Every man on being landed was furnished with an account of wages, according to the Board of Trade regulations; and our practice, when furnishing that to a man, was to read over his account from the ledger, and tell him what balance he had to get, according to our account; and he was paid accordingly at the Shipping Office. When he appeared at the Shipping Office, the shipping master, or any one acting for him, asked the man if he had got his account of wages from the agent. He said 'Yes.' 'Are you satisfied with your account?' 'Yes;' and then I paid the amount of the balance. The shipping master did not see that what I had paid was the exact sum entered in the account of wages.

14,421. Then, in point of fact, what you paid was the sum actually due to the man in his private account with you?-Yes; that is to say, we squared accounts at the Shipping Office.

14,422. Was the shipping master aware that the cash actually passing was not the sum stated in the account of wages?-I am not aware of that. It was only last year that I understand the real sum paid was entered in the release which a man subscribed, and of course the shipping master had then to be satisfied that the actual sum was paid.

14,423 Was there a change in the form of the release then?-Yes, to that extent.

14,424. I understand the release is signed by the seamen, and the sum paid to each man is entered in the column opposite his name?-Yes.

14,425. That column either did not exist or was not filled up previous to 1871?-Yes. There was no column of that kind then.

14,426. Was that the reason why, in 1871, the superintendent began to look into the matter more closely, and to require that he should be satisfied that the actual sum named in the regulation account of wages was handed to the seamen?-Yes.

14,427. Under the present system, the superintendent has to give a certificate to that effect upon the release?-I suppose so.

14,428. Mr. Robertson stated that, in his experience, no allotment notes were ever taken in the names of the agents?-Yes; and that is another thing with regard to which I differ from him. That has been done in my own experience. Several young men, who had no wives to receive their allotment notes, asked at the Shipping Office if they could be made payable in my own name and the shipping master said it was quite legitimate. I think that occurred first in 1867.

14,429. Have you had such allotment notes in your own name since?-They were signed in that way unasked by me. I never knew about it until the men stated it in my presence.

14,430. The object of signing the allotment notes in that way was to enable you to draw their wages, or rather to retain their wages in security for your advances to them?-It had that effect.

14,431. In what year did you cease to act for Mr. Leask?-I left him in the end of 1865.

14,432. Had any allotment notes been taken before then in the agent's name?-Not to my knowledge.

14,433. While you in his employment, was it the practice to give the sailors no allotment notes at all?-Yes. I am not aware, from my own experience, that allotment notes were granted previous to 1867.

14,434. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. Robertson's evidence?-Not having heard the whole of his evidence, I cannot say; but these are the only points on which I differ from him, so far as I heard what he stated.

14,435. You have handed me a memorandum with regard to the voyage of the s.s. 'Narwhal' of Dundee, in the seal and whale fishing of 1866, showing the earnings of the Shetland portion of the crew, the amount in cash paid to each man, and the time of settlement?-Yes.

14,436. Was that memorandum made for the owners?-No. I have made it up from my books for the purposes of this examination.

14,437. That statement shows that thirty-one men were engaged through you for that vessel in that year, that their earnings amounted to £411, 15. 8d., and the amount paid in cash to £321, 19s. 10d. You also state the average earnings to be £13, 5s. 8d.; the average cash £10, 7s. 9d., and the average goods £2, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.

14,438. You also state that seven of the men were discharged on the same day when they left the vessel and that the others were discharged afterwards at different times, varying from seven days up till two, two and a half, seven and a half, and eight and a half months after they left the vessel?-Yes.

14,439. Was the average amount of cash received by the men of the 'Narwhal,' on that voyage, below or above, the average received by men in other ships, in your experience?-I have not looked particularly at the other books. That was not a very successful voyage, otherwise the goods might have been a little more, and the cash would have been more as well.

14,440. You have also produced a similar memorandum with regard to the s.s. 'Arctic,' in 1867, after the new regulations were introduced, which shows that the proportion in goods and money had not altered very much?-Yes.

14,441. Do you think it has altered since 1867?-I don't think so.

14,442. I thought you said that since 1867 you had greatly limited your advances to the men?-I consider the amount advanced, even in 1867, to be limited.

14,443. The amount of goods advanced in 1866 was £2, 17s. 11d. out of £13, 5s. 8d. of average earnings in the case of the 'Narwhal,' and in 1867, in the case of the 'Arctic,' it was £2, 13s. 1d. out of £11, 15s. 3d. of average earnings: that was very nearly the same proportion?-Yes.

14,444. Can you say that the amount of cash paid now is much greater than it was as shown in this return?-No; of course much will depend upon the success of the voyage, but I don't think there would be a great difference in the proportion.

14,445. Then is this memorandum intended to show that as much cash was paid before 1867 as you pay now?-I just took these two ships for the two respective years. I had no such object in view as you suggest.

14,446. Do you think that, in point of fact, as much cash was paid before 1867 as is paid now?-As I said before, it depends very much on the success of the voyage.

14,447. But you have had a great deal of experience, and, taking an average successful voyage, would the payment of cash be as great before 1867 as it has been since?-The regulations of the Board of Trade won't interfere with that to any great extent, but the agents have not been engaging so many young hands since.

14,448. Is it your experience, as well as Mr. Robertson's, that green hands are not employed now to the same extent as they were formerly?-Yes; that must be the experience of every one.

14,449. What is the total cost of a green hand's outfit?-About £7.

14,450. The average amount spent on outfit by a man who has been at the whaling before must, I suppose, be [Page 362] considerably less?-A man who has been there for many years before may be keeping up his outfit.

14,451. May he require to spend £3 or £4 when he goes out again?-He may not require to spend one half of that.

14,452. And besides that he obtains a higher wage?-Yes.

14,453. Are you in the habit of insuring your men's outfits?-Yes.

14,454. What is the rate of insurance?-I think it is from 5 to 6 guineas per cent. I may mention that the Greenland trade was always considered to be a great nursery for seamen. A great many of our naval reserve men now, the majority of whom could compare with similar class in any part of Great Britain, commenced their career in the Greenland trade; but now these stringent Board of Trade regulations have utterly prevented, or nearly so, agents from taking them.

14,455. Is that because it has lessened the agents' power over the men?-No, it is because the men can only engage for one voyage; while almost the whole of the ships go to the seal fishing first, and come home, and then go back to Davis Straits.

14,456. Do the men ever engage for both voyages at once?-They have done so for the last year or two but it is not legal.

14,457. But they did it formerly?-Yes.

14,458. And they have resumed the practice within the last year or two?-Within the last two or three years the young hands have come to know that they cannot be forced to go both voyages, but that if they choose to leave at the end of the first voyage they do so. Of course an agent, when giving him an outfit for the sealing voyage, knew that nearly the same outfit would do for the whaling; but he cannot run the risk of giving that outfit upon one voyage merely, and therefore he cannot engage young hands.

14,459. I thought you said they had begun within the last year or two again to engage them for both voyages?-No. I say they have given it up within the last few years, because the young hands came to know that they could not be compelled to go both voyages if they chose to leave at the end of the sealing voyage.

14,460. Then that is another reason for ceasing to employ young hands?-That, in my opinion, is principal reason.

14,461. Are these young hands not anxious to get employment for both voyages?-If they have to rough it very severely in the first voyage perhaps they get cured of going, and wish to stay at home.

14,462. But the abstracts you have produced show that the amounts of goods in 1866 and 1867 were very much in the same proportion; so that that is not consistent with the general proposition you stated, that the agents have restricted their credits to the men very much since these regulations were enforced?-As I said before, I made up these two lists in this way, that one was for the last year when the agents could settle without going before the shipping master, and the other was for the following year when they were compelled to go.

14,463. The abstracts you have produced, if they are to be taken as representative cases, rather show that the system introduced in 1867 made no difference at all?-I merely took these two years as specimens of what was done before and after the new system was introduced. I can prepare statements for other years if you think it necessary.

14,464. Perhaps the explanation may be that the 'Narwhal' was the case in which the greatest amount of cash was paid before 1867, in your experience?-I did not fix upon the ships in that way. I merely took them for the reason I have stated. The first man's account in that list shows that of £28, 11s. 3d. which he had to receive, he got £27, 15s. in cash. What I meant to show by that was, that the agent had no control over the man's cash, but that when he asked it he got it.

14,465. How many ships had you in 1866?-Two; the 'Narwhal' and the 'Erik.'

14,466. Did the men in the 'Erik' receive as large a proportion of cash as those in the 'Narwhal'?-I could not say positively unless I had the book, but I think they could not have had so much.

14,467. Would they have a good deal less?-They would have considerably less, because the vessel returned clean. The voyage was utterly unsuccessful.

14,468. Then, taking your experience while in Mr. Leask's employment before 1866, should you say that the men sailing in the ships for which he was agent generally received as much cash as the men of the 'Narwhal' in 1866?-I think on an average they would; but of course that would be in pretty successful years.

14,469. I am not speaking about the actual amount of cash which they would receive, and whether it was larger or smaller, but would they receive the same proportion of cash and of goods as is shown by your memorandum?-Scarcely.

14,470. Would the proportion be considerably less?-I am hardly prepared to say.

14,471. Are you prepared to say that since 1867 the men in the ships under your charge have got the same proportions of cash as against goods as are stated in the memorandum with regard to the 'Arctic'?-Nearly. I shall furnish a statement for a year or two in order to show how the matter stood then.*

14,472. How many vessels had you in 1871?-I had none in 1871. In 1870 I had two-the 'Narwhal' and the 'Arctic.'

14,473. Have you a separate book for each year?-I have for each ship. I should wish to make a remark with regard to the report of the Accountant of the Board of Trade. Enough, perhaps too much, has already been said on that subject, but I think his report is couched in rather exaggerated terms, and, to a cursory reader, is calculated to convey a very erroneous impression. To a careful reader it is very different, I must acknowledge, but with a cursory reader it might have that effect.

14,474. Then you don't go so far as Mr. Robertson has gone, and say that the statements in it are utterly erroneous?-No, I cannot do that.

14,475. You merely object to the general impression which it conveys?-Yes; but I decidedly object to that. I would also say that in my experience, which is nearly as long as that of any one in the agency I never knew of an agent intentionally putting off time in settling with the men. When I was in Mr. Leask's employment, before the passing of the Merchant Shipping Act, when the men were landed and got what cash and goods they wanted, they would generally ask at what time they would be settled with, and we would tell them that in the course of a month, by which time we got the returns ready-that is, the [Page 363] ship's accounts for wages and oil-money-we would settle with them at any time. That was the universal practice.

14,476. Formerly you did not settle with the men until you had got funds put into your hands by the owners-No; and we generally got these in the course of four weeks.

14,477. Do you know of any case in which a settlement was refused on the ground that you had not received funds from the owners?-No; I do not recollect of any such case.

14,478. Is there any foundation for this statement in Mr. Hamilton's report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Has a man had any difficulty in getting employment because he had carried his custom away from a particular agent?- I don't think so. If there was such a case, I think it must have been only one.

14,479. Was there one case?-I say I think it could only be one case.

14,480. But do you know of any one case?-Having left Mr. Leask's business, I consider it treading on rather delicate ground to speak about that; and I would not like to be pressed. Of course I must always remember in giving my evidence that I am on oath, but I would not like to be considered as equivocating.

14,481. I think you are giving very candid evidence; but you ought to tell if there is any foundation for the statement that the men had been refused employment because they had carried their custom elsewhere?-I am only aware of one solitary case.

14,482. Was that because the man had gone away and got an outfit or supplies elsewhere?-I am not aware of a man being denied a berth because he had taken an outfit elsewhere. I think the report of the Accountant is incorrect in that respect, because I have known no case in which a man has been refused a berth because he had taken his outfit elsewhere.

14,483. What was the one case to which you referred just now?-I cannot condescend upon the particulars which led to it specially; but there was one case of man being engaged, or partly engaged. He had been with the same master for some years before, but some little difference arose, and the man was prevented from going the voyage, and did not go to it. I cannot say what was the particular cause for that.

14,484. What was the name of the man?-Thomas Manson, Bressay. That has been the only case of that kind, in my experience of the Greenland trade.

14,485. The practice in engaging seamen, I understand, is that the men go to the agents and intimate their desire to be employed for the voyage?-Yes.

14,486. The agent has not the power of making legal engagement with the men, but the engagement is finally made by the captain?-Yes.

14,487. Do you go on board the vessel with the men for the purpose of having them engaged, or is the engagement generally made by the captain on shore?-There have been a few cases of engaging men on board ship, but very few.

14,488. But it is done at a meeting between the captain, the agent, and the men?-Yes.

14,489. I suppose the agent, where there are a number of men, has some voice with regard to their selection?-Unquestionably.

14,490. Are you aware whether any effort has been made by agents, either yourself or others, to secure engagements for the men who had larger accounts or larger debts in your books?-Of course there have been a few cases where an engagement has been got for a man who was in debt.

14,491. Do you know of any case where the captain has objected, or complained of the efforts made by the agent to get such men engaged?-No, I don't recollect of any such case.

14,492. Did you know a Captain M'Lennan who came here for men?-Yes.

14,493. Did he make any objection of that kind on any occasion?-No.

14,494. Did he not complain of it being done?-Not to my knowledge. I never heard any such complaint, either from him or from the owner on his behalf.

14,495. Were you at one time agent for a vessel of which he was master?-Yes, in 1870. He had his men sent south to him in the previous year. We had him for two years.

14,496. Were you not in business at all in 1871?-Not as shipping agents.

14,497. Had you applied to have the agency for Captain M'Lennan's ship in 1871, before you gave up the business?- No; we had her from 1866 till 1871, when we gave her up voluntarily.

14,498. Was no complaint made at all that you had endeavoured to engage men who were in your debt or who were running accounts with you?-No.

14,499. In your business, who was in the habit of settling with the men at the Custom House? was it yourself or a clerk?-It was invariably myself. In fact it was the same individual who had to appear every time. The shipping master would not allow one person to come now, and another person to come then.

14,500. You have already stated that, so long as you were engaged in the trade, the amount of your account was deducted, and only the balance was handed over to the man in presence of the shipping master?-Yes.

14,501. So that, in point of fact, your account was settled in the Custom House just as it was before the Board of Trade regulations, with this exception, that there was no writing or reading over of the accounts at that place?-Yes. Before 1867 it was done in our own office. I may mention that in several cases, of which this [showing an account of wages] is a specimen, the men actually got what they had to get according to the Board of Trade regulations. In that case the sum which the man had to get was £5, 16s. 3d.

14,502. Did he get the whole amount because he had no account at all?-He had an account, but he got this sum in full because his wife had not drawn all his allotments.

14,503. Were the allotments deducted in that account?-Yes, that was invariably done.

14,504. Did you draw the allotments for your account?-We drew them regularly from the owners.

14,505. So that this man got his balance due upon the account of wages, because his allotments had been applied to the account due to you?-Yes. I may mention that his account was very trifling,- in fact was next to nothing; and in addition to that he had a balance to get, when he came down to the office, of £3 odds due upon his allotments.

14,506. Have you any vessels engaged in the Faroe trade?-No; we are in no way connected with that fishing.

14,507. Have you any share as owner in any of the vessels for which you have acted as agent?-No; and as we are entirely out of that trade just now, have no reason for making the statements I have done, except merely to give it correct account of the way in which the business has been conducted. The statement I have made is altogether an unprejudiced one.

14,508. But you think the 21/2 per cent. allowed to you was a very inadequate remuneration?-Since the recent Board of Trade regulations were issued, it was because we had often to throw our own business aside to attend to the men when they came to settle.

*Mr. Tulloch afterwards furnished the following statement:- Men on s.s. 'Arctic,' of Dundee, voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1867. Amount of wages and oil-money, £411 14 6 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-35 men, 318 14 6 Amount of goods sold, £93 0 0

Average earnings, £11 15 3 ,, cash, 9 2 1 ,, goods, 2 13 1

Men on s.s. 'Narwhal's' voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1869-M'Lennan, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc.,. £303 15 2 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-19 men, 255 11 6 Amount of goods sold, £48 3 8

Average earnings, £15 19 9 ,, cash, 13 9 0 ,, goods, 2 10 9

Men on s.s. 'Erik,' of London, voyage to seal fishing in 1869-Robert Jones, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc., £365 10 10 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-25 men, 326 4 4 Amount of goods sold, 39 6 6 Average earnings, £14 12 5 ,, cash, 13 1 0 ,, goods, 1 11 5

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GEORGE REID TAIT, examined.

14,509. You were for a number of years engaged as an agent in Lerwick for whaling vessels?-I was.

14,510. How many ships had you generally?-I have had as high as eighteen in one year.

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14,511. For these, I suppose, you would sometimes employ 100 or 200 men?-Fully that; perhaps about 250 men.

14,512. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Tulloch?-I have.

14,513. Are there any points on which you differ from him?-Yes. So far as my own experience is concerned, since the issuing of the Board of Trade regulations in 1867 we have invariably settled with our men at the Shipping Office without deducting our own account

14,514. Were these settlements conducted by yourself, or by one of your clerks?-Principally by one of my clerks; but at times, when he was absent, I generally settled with the men myself.

14,515. Was that clerk Mr. Leisk, who is now your successor in business?-Yes.

14,516. Is the statement correct that these settlements were generally protracted for months, and were only made at intervals as the men came up?-I don't think it is generally correct. When a vessel arrived at Lerwick, the men were generally settled with at once.

14,517. Even before 1867?-Even before 1867. I don't think there is any difference with regard to the dates of settlement.

14,518. Then what effect have the regulations had?-I don't think they have had very much effect, so far as my own experience goes.

14,519. Have they had the effect of reducing the amount of debit against the men in the agents' books?-I don't think so.

14,520. You have not found it necessary in consequence to restrict your advances to the men?-I have not. I just give them much about the same as formerly

14,521. Have you formed any idea from your experience as to what proportion of a man's earnings in an average voyage may be exhausted by his supplies in goods?-I have taken a note of it for the last three years. In some cases it has been as high as 20 per cent.; but where the vessels were successful, the proportion of goods was not by any means so great, compared with the amount of oil-money and wages. In that case it would sometimes be reduced to 5 per cent. In the case of the 'Arctic,' Dundee, last year, £995, 6s. 8d. was paid at the Shipping Office to 29 men, and they afterwards returned and paid me £48, 2s. 5d. for goods That was a very successful year, and the 'Arctic' was particularly fortunate. I may explain that out of the twenty-nine men there were only eight taken on the second voyage The vessel made two voyages, and that return is exclusive of the eight men who went with her the second time.

14,522. So that the advances were really made for the sealing voyage only?-Yes, really for the sealing voyage.

14,523. And I suppose it was from the sealing voyage that the greater part of the returns were made?-No. I think the eight men grossed pretty nearly as much from the second voyage.

14,524. But that was an extraordinary case altogether, was it not?-Our vessels were all fortunate last year, on the whole.

14,525. However, you say that in some cases the amount of goods has been as much as 20 per cent. of the whole earnings?-I think so; but these were exceptional cases.

14,526. After the new regulations were issued, did the men universally come down and settle their accounts as soon as they received their cash at the Custom House?-As a rule, they did.

14,527. Are they expected to do so?-A great number of the men who are customers of my own are always very honourable in settling their accounts.

14,528. But is it understood when you are paying them the money that they are to do so?-Yes.

14,529. Is there an understanding expressed at the time when they are getting the advance, that they are to settle as soon as they receive their wages?-We have never expressed it in words, but I should fancy that there is such an understanding.

14,530. Have your accounts since 1867 been kept in the same way as they were before?-In the same way.

14,531. That is to say, they show the receipt by the seaman of the balance due after deducting his account, and don't show the actual sum received by him at the Custom House?-We generally credit the men with the full amount of wages, oil-money, and seal-money payable to them; then there are the advances prior to the voyage; then there is the sum paid at the Shipping Office;-the full amount is entered against the men; and then the sum returned.

14,532. Do you make a separate entry of that so as to show what has been actually paid?-Yes.

14,533. Have you known any case of a man declining to come down from the Shipping Office to pay his account at the time?- There have been two or three very rare cases.

14,534. What happened when such cases occurred?-The men are still due the amount. That was all that happened.

14,535. Did you make any effort to get them an engagement in the following year?-No; I have never seen them since. I think two of them are south.

14,536. Have you seen any evidence on the part of the men in other cases of an unwillingness to come down?-No. I have never seen any evidence of that at all. We leave the men at the Custom House after we pay them, and they always turn up afterwards and pay us.

14,537. Do you ever accompany them down from the Shipping Office?-We never have to do such a thing. It may be a day or so before they come, but they always pay very honourably.

14,538. Do you generally tell them at the Custom House that they are to come down to the office?-No. I do not recollect ever once telling them that, or giving them the least hint on the subject. I trust to their honour, and they always come forward. I may remark, that masters of vessels coming home from the sealing are very anxious to proceed with all despatch to Dundee or Peterhead, and it is sometimes difficult to make the harbour here. It would be an exceedingly annoying thing to force shipmasters to spend some days perhaps in making Lerwick harbour; so that they are very anxious in passing Shetland, to land their crews at any of the islands; but in that case the expenses of the crew are invariably paid to Lerwick, and it may be a fortnight perhaps before we see the men. Generally speaking, however, they are in town in less than eight days.

14,539. Have you known any cases in which your account for goods furnished was entered in the captain's store-book?-I have known cases of that some years ago-perhaps about three years ago, I should fancy; but am not certain.

14,540. Was that done after the new system was introduced?- There was a special order of the Board of Trade issued afterwards, preventing us from doing so. It was done before that time.

14,541. Did that order prohibit such entries being made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, with the exception of the captain's own account.

14,542. Such entries were made, I presume, to entitle you to deduct the amount of your account at the settlement before the superintendent?-Yes.

14,543. Do you think the remuneration of 2 1/2 per cent. is sufficient for the trouble that an agent has in obtaining engagements for the men and settling with them?-That depends entirely upon the success of the vessel. Some vessels, such as the 'Arctic' in the voyage I have mentioned, pay well enough; but if the vessel is unfortunate, the remuneration is scarcely sufficient.

14,544. But, taking the vessels overhead, is it sufficient?-I don't think it is, considering the time and trouble that are necessary.

14,545. Might not the rate of remuneration be raised by agreement with the owners?-They have refused to increase it. There was an application to that effect made some years ago, and I think they refused to entertain it.

14,546. Then I fancy the agent's principal inducement to continue in the business is that he has an opportunity [Page 365] of supplying the men with goods?-I don't think there are many agents inclined to continue the business now.

14,547. You have given it up yourself?-Yes.

14,548. But your successors are to continue it?-Yes. I think for a year they are to continue it.

14,549. You are not one of the gentlemen who have come voluntarily forward for the purpose of contradicting the official report of Mr. Hamilton?-No; but, so far as my own experience is concerned, I think Mr. Hamilton's report was very much exaggerated. In fact it was not correct, because all our men invariably got paid in full at the Shipping Office, without any deductions, since 1867. From the report, it would appear that the agent deducted his own account, but that was never done by me.

14,550. But if you put your account into the captain's store-book, that was getting deduction of it?-There was a special clause in the ship's articles, entitling us to do that. During the last three years that has been prohibited, so far as the Shetland men's accounts were concerned, but not in the Peterhead ships' articles. I think the clause still holds good with regard to Peterhead crews.

14,551. In your business, were you in the practice of taking out the allotments of wages in your own name?-No, not the allotments.

14,552. Did you give any allotment notes at all?-Yes, since 1867.

14,553. Did you do so in all cases?-No. I have had allotment notes, in a few exceptional cases, made out in my own name, when the men desired that. They volunteered it at the Shipping Office in a few cases; but the great bulk of them were made out in their wives' names and, where they were young men, in the name of their mothers.

14,554. Were there many cases in which no allotment notes were taken at all?-Yes. I think last year we had one crew who had no allotment notes at all; and before 1867 I think no allotment notes were given.

14,555. Since 1867, has it been a common thing for men not to take allotment notes at all?-It is common thing for the men to take them if the voyage is long; but if it is short, the captain does not give allotment notes, because the voyage would be ended before the first note was due.

14,556. Have you known any case in which agents have endeavoured to secure engagements for men who were due them money, or who were running accounts with them, in preference to other men who were not in that position?-I never knew any such case, although I have heard it often talked about.

14,557. Have you heard the captains complaining that the agents wanted them to take men who were indebted to them, rather than the best men who were not in debt?-I have heard Captain M'Lennan say so. I was not his agent at all, but I heard him make such a complaint in our place last year. I did not know anything as to the truth of it.

14,558. Were you acquainted with the system of exchanging lists which Mr. Tulloch spoke of?-Yes; but I have seen none from anybody for the last five or six years, nor have I handed any within that time.

14,559. What was the purpose of these lists?-It was simply for the purpose, if possible, of procuring payment of the balance due, or of ascertaining where the man was employed. The list gave us a sort of idea where he had been in the previous season.

14,560. Was it a list of all the men who were in your debt, and who had not engaged with you, that you handed to the other agents?-It was generally a list of about half a dozen men, whether they engaged or not. It depended upon whether they were customers.

14,561. But if a man engaged with you, it was quite unnecessary for you to hand his name in a list to any other agent?-Yes; it was quite unnecessary then.

14,562. Therefore the list must have contained the names of men who had not engaged with you?-Yes.

14,563. At what period were these lists made out?-About the spring, or some time during the season, prior to the vessels returning from the Arctic regions.

14,564. Have you ever handed lists of that kind to Mr. Leask or to any of his people?-Yes, when Mr. Tulloch was a clerk to him, but never since the regulations of the Board of Trade were issued.

14,565. Have you known any case of a man being paid his wages before the superintendent, and leaving to hand back a large proportion of them to the agent in settlement of his account?- Yes. If he was an honest man, he would come down and settle his account, whatever it was.

14,566. May it have happened in many cases that he had to hand back the whole or a considerable portion of his earnings in that way?-Yes; in the case of a young lad whose earnings were small, his account might amount to the whole.

14,567. Your books, I have no doubt, would show many cases of that kind?-Yes, many cases.

14,568. Did you cease to engage young hands to the same extent as formerly, in consequence of the regulations of the Board of Trade?-Yes. That is the sole reason why so few young hands are engaged now.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, sen. recalled.

14,569. Have you examined your books for January 1868?-Yes.

14,570. Did you find any entry there of a sale of meal to Thomas Hutchison, Skerries, or to his father?-No; there is no entry of a sale of meal in that month.

14,571. Did you find the price at which your meal was being sold in the following month?-Yes.

14,572. You have no entries to show the price during January?-I cannot find any.

14,573. At what price was it being sold in February 1868?-At 52s. That is the price I charged; but I find the price was rising that year, because in the following month again it was charged 1s. higher; and it is quite possible that I would sell a sack at 50s. in January.

14,574. Is it possible you may have sold a sack of meal without it being entered in your books at all?-Yes; we frequently do that. If the cash is paid down we don't make any entry of it.

14,575. The price of 52s. in February was the credit price?-Yes.

14,576. So that, if a man were buying it over the counter, he would probably get it 1s. cheaper, paying for it at the time?-Yes. We usually give it 1s. cheaper when paid for at the time, than when we give two or three months' credit.

14,577. Do you do an extensive business in meal?-Yes.

14,578. Is there much difference in the price of the meal sold in Shetland, according to the quality of it?-There is a considerable difference in the prices of flour.

14,579. But is the meal generally about the same quality?-Much about the same.

14,580. Is there a difference between south-country meal and Orkney meal and Shetland meal?-There is no Shetland meal sold. We never get any to buy; at least very little.

14,581. I have seen one or two entries of Shetland meal in country places: would it be sold much lower than south-country meal?- Yes, very much lower.

14,582. But it is not an ordinary article of commerce in the country?-No. There are very few who deal in it.

14,583. In comparing the books of different merchants selling meal throughout the country, would it, in your opinion, be fair to assume that a merchant in a country district was selling the same quality of meal that you sell in Lerwick?-Yes. I think they would be selling the same quality. There may be different qualities of meal, but I think they all keep the same qualities. For instance we keep three kinds of flour.

14,584. That is in flour, but in meal is it usual in Shetland to keep more than one quality?-I think not.

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14,585. You keep only one quality of meal?-Yes.

14,586. And you are inclined to believe that merchants in other parts of Shetland will generally be selling the same quality?-I think so. Of course it must be a little dearer in the country, but I have heard of prices being charged, at which I was a little surprised.

14,587. Did you at one time give a note of the prices of meal to a man, Henry Gilbertson?-I was inquiring at my clerk about that, and I found that he did it. Of course he would give the prices which he knew, and which he would find in my book. I may mention that the prices of meal differ very much in one year.

14,588. But probably not within one month, unless there is a sudden rise?-No; not unless there is a sudden rise or a sudden fall. I generally consider that we should charge as little for meal as we can, so that the poor people may get it at as low a price as possible; and we take a less profit on it than on other goods.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN LEISK, examined.

14,589. You are a partner of the firm of Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick?-I am.

14,590. I understand you were previously in the employment of Mr. George Reid Tait, who has now retired from business?-Yes; I had been in his employment since 1862.

14,591. Were you in any other business of the same kind before?-No; I entered business then for the first time.

14,592. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Tait?-Yes.

14,593. Do you agree generally with him in the account he has given of the way in which seamen have been discharged and had their wages paid?-Yes. I think it was generally correct.

14,594. Have you been in the habit of going up and paying wages at the Custom House?-I generally went with the men there.

14,595. Is it the custom now to hand them over their wages in cash, deducting only the sums which they have got for the month's advance, the allotment money, and the captain's account for stores?-During the last year, 1871, we only deducted the captain's stores and the first month's advance.

14,596. Were there no allotments?-The men had allotments but we did not deduct them. We were entitled to do so; but I found it simpler not to deduct them, and trust to the men refunding.

14,597. Then the allotments were not entered in the accounts of wages at all?-No.

14,598. Why did you not enter an allotment which the man had really drawn?-Our reason for not doing so was that in some cases they had not received the allotment in full, and they did not understand the accounts very well. In fact we found they understood them much better when they saw the full amount of their wages and were told the amount of advances. It was less trouble to us, and we got on better with the men by doing so.

14,599. Did you not include the allotment in the settlement with the men at the Custom House because it was involved in their accounting with you?-Yes; it became involved with that.

14,600. Had the allotment notes in 1871 been taken in name of the agent?-Very few of them. Perhaps in one or two cases they were, but not more.

14,601. Had they generally been left in his hands?-Yes, generally.

14,602. When not taken in his name, but left in his hands, in whose name were they made out?-Generally in name of their wives or some of their relations.

14,603. Had you found that the wives had come to get advances?-Yes, generally they had.

14,604. But not to the full extent of the allotment money?- Sometimes, and in other cases they did not. In Lerwick they always got supplies to the full extent, but in the country they did not.

14,605. In what way did they get supplies?-Chiefly in money.

14,606. But in the country they did not take money to the full extent of the allotment note?-Sometimes they did. In fact the allotments were generally paid in cash.

14,607. Was it usual for the wives only to take it as they wanted it, and not to draw the full amount of allotment money due at any one time?-They generally had it divided in four; and they came for it weekly, instead of monthly-the allotment note being payable monthly.

14,608. Was it in consequence of that practice of drawing upon the allotment money that you found it more convenient not to put it into the account of wages?-Yes.

14,609. If it had been drawn at monthly intervals the account would have been simpler?-It would.

14,610. And it might have been entered in the account of wages without any trouble?-Yes.

14,611. Why was it not paid over to the women monthly?-They generally wanted money before it was due. It is only due two months after the vessel has left; and they required money before that time and generally got it.

14,612. When the two months had expired, did you not settle accounts with them, so as to clear off all that was due?-In some cases we did. When they were drawing upon us regularly we did so, but we did not make a practice of doing so.

14,613. I suppose you were supplying them with goods at the time as they wanted them?-If they wanted goods we supplied them, but we never asked them to take them.

14,614. Neither did you ask them to take the full amount of their allotment money when it was due?-No.

14,615. Have you since 1862 been in the habit of settling the accounts with seamen engaged in the whaling trade?-Only since the new regulations in 1867.

14,616. Since then has it generally been you who have gone up to the Custom House for Mr. Tait?-Yes, almost invariably, except when I was away.

14,617. Since 1867 has the deduction for your account ever been made in settling at the Custom House-Never since 1868. There was an order issued by the Board of Trade in 1867, but it was not very complete, and there were fuller regulations issued in 1868.

14,618. But the system was altered in 1867?-Yes. There was nothing to prevent us from including supplies for the men in the captain's store-book previous to 1868; but the new regulations prevented that, and we never did it afterwards.

14,619. Then it was only in 1867 that any entries were made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, by us. There was a clause about that in the regulations of 1868 which was not in the regulations of 1867.

14,620. Have you ever read over to the men the account of their transactions with you before going up to settle at the Custom House?-We generally read it over when they come to pay it.

14,621. Is it ever done before they go to the Custom House?-If they wish it, it is done but we never volunteer to do it.

14,622. Has there been any case since 1868 in which settlement of your account has been made or proposed at the Custom House?-I don't remember one. I know it was never allowed by the superintendent. He always counted the money, in every case since 1868.

14,623. Do you know how it was done in the case of other agents?-I don't know.

14,624. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Tulloch to the effect that up to 1870 he had only paid the cash balance due to the man after deduction of his account, and that the superintendent had not taken care to see that the whole amount was paid, except the legal [Page 367] deductions?-Yes. I understood that that had been allowed in Mr. Tulloch's case, but it was not allowed in ours.

14,625. Had you been expressly debarred from doing so by the superintendent?-Yes.

14,626. Was that done on any occasion when you were about to settle your own account there?-No. We never tried that; but he has repeatedly counted the money, perhaps not every man's, but that of two or three, to see that it was complete.

14,627. Has that been done since 1868?-Yes, always since 1868.

14,628. Do the men universally come down to your shop to settle their accounts after receiving the money?-Yes, I think invariably. I only remember one case in which a man failed to do so. Perhaps there has been one case more, but I don't think it.

14,629. Who was the man whose case you remember?-John Henderson, Yell.

14,630. Have you had occasion to remind the men that they ought to come down and pay their accounts?-No; we do not remind them of it, but we always explain the account of wages as we hand it to each man.

14,631. Is that explanation made in the Custom House?-No; we explain it previously. The man is supposed to be satisfied with it before he goes to the Custom House.

14,632. When making that explanation, do you also tell them that they are bound to come and pay their account for furnishings to you?-We do not tell them so. We tell them that our account is not included in the account of wages, and has to be paid simply when they get their money.

14,633. And the men have always come down without being told, and have paid their accounts at your shop?-Yes. They generally leave the Shipping Office one by one as they are paid, and come down to the shop, sometimes straight, and sometimes they do not appear for a long time afterwards. We never look after them, but just trust to their coming.

14,634. I suppose the amount of your account for outfit and furnishings sometimes exceeds the amount of wages and oil-money due; at least in the case of young hands?-In the case of young hands only; and as rule, in their case it does so. It is a very exceptional thing in the case of older hands. The young hands have less clothes to start with, and they require larger outfit, and their wages are smaller.

14,635. Do young hands invariably come back to you in the second year to get an engagement?-Not invariably.

14,636. What do they do in that case?-I don't know what becomes of them. Perhaps they go to some other fishing, or engage with some other agent.

14,637. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining his outfit from another shop than that of the agent by whom he has been engaged?-I don't know of any.

14,638. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining what he wanted for his second or third voyage from another shop than that of the agent who engaged him?-No, I have not been aware of it. If he had money to get at the end of the voyage, he possibly bought what he wanted elsewhere. I don't know of such a case, but it may have happened.

14,639. Was there a correspondence between Mr. Tait and the superintendent hereabout the system of paying seamen at the Custom House within the last three or four years?-There was some correspondence between them in the beginning of 1871.

14,640. Was that after the publication of Mr. Hamilton's report?- Yes.

14,641. How did that correspondence originate?-I think it originated from some document that came down for explanation from the Board of Trade through the shipowners in Dundee. Mr. Tait sent it up to the Shipping Office here, and asked what was complained of in discharging the seamen.

14,642. Did he get an answer?-The correspondence was carried on between Mr. Tait and Mr. Gatherer. I was not concerned in it.

14,643. Had you any interviews with Mr. Gatherer on the subject?-Yes, one. I carried up the document to him which had come from the Board of Trade and conveyed a message to him from Mr. Tait asking what was complained of, as we did not know of anything wrong. He refused to give me an explanation, saying at first that he knew nothing about it. I insisted that there must have been some complaint from him or from this quarter, but he still refused to give me any explanation of it, and I got none.

14,644. Did the correspondence follow upon that interview which you had with him?-Yes.

14,645. Was any explanation obtained in the correspondence?-I am not conversant with the correspondence, and I cannot answer that question.

14,646. Are you engaged in any other branch of the fishing business except the agency for the whaling vessels?-No. With regard to the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society, I heard Mr. Jamieson's evidence upon that point, and I would like to add, that a man who is wrecked has the option of applying through any agent that he may choose, and is not bound in any way to apply through the man who has sold him his ticket.

14,647. What is the practice in cases of that sort?-The men generally apply through the agent nearest to them.

14,648. Have you known any cases in which men or widows have applied through others than the agent who sold them the ticket, in order that they might obtain money instead of being paid in goods?-I did not know that that was their reason, but it might have been.

14,649. In such cases as those to which I have referred, have they generally asked for money?-They have generally got the money, so far as I know.

14,650. But you are not acquainted with any case in which that has been assigned as the reason for applying to a different agent?- No; I never heard it. They would likely apply to the agent they were best acquainted with, or who lived nearest to them. There are five agents in Lerwick, one of whom is the fishery officer, who is not connected with trade in any way, so far as I am aware.

14,651. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to the time for settling with the men, we generally, as soon as we can get their accounts ready, fix a day for them to appear at the Shipping Office, and we settle then with as many as make their appearance.

14,652. You do not settle with the men on landing?-When the men land, we fix a day for settling with them, and as many men as appear on that day get their wages then, and the rest get them when they call.

14,653. But if you see the men when they land, in order to fix the day with them, why is it that you cannot [be] there and then settle with them?-Because we cannot get the accounts ready. We require some time to make up the accounts of wages, and then they have to get discharges, which take them fully as much time as the accounts. There is a great deal of writing to be done in that; they are all made out in duplicate.

14,654. Do you mean that your own shop accounts have to be made up?-No, our own shop accounts have all been made up long before; it is only the accounts of wages that have to be made up at that time.

14,655. Have they to be made out in duplicate?-No; only the discharges.

14,656. Are not the whole crew discharged in one document?- That is the release; but each man besides has to get a separate discharge, and a certificate of character and ability and conduct.

14,657. Do you ever settle accounts of wages with the men before your own shop accounts are made out and balanced?-Never. We always make out our shop accounts shortly after the vessel sails.

14,658. But you may be giving supplies to the families all the time when the vessel is away?-Yes; but it is very easy to add that. It is always posted up, and can be added to the account at any time. I now produce the store-book of the 'Tay' in order to show you [Page 368] the form in which we understand it has to be kept in order to comply with the regulations.

14,659. Is that book kept by the captain?-Yes, We generally furnish a book for the purpose. The captains are not very careful about that, and we have had a great deal of annoyance with the Shipping Office in consequence.

14,660. Is there a separate store-book, kept in these steamers for the Shetland men?-Yes. The entries are filled in by the captain, and signed by him and each man; but sometimes they are not very particular in getting them signed, and objections have been made to receiving them at the Shipping Office in consequence.

14,661. Who is G.R.?-That is the signature of one of the clerks in the Shipping Office. That book will show the dates on which the men have been paid. The vessel arrived on Sunday 14th May, and we fixed the 17th as the day of settlement, when a few men made their appearance. There are three days allowed by the Merchant Shipping Act for settlement.

14,662. Do you think that is too short a period to enable you to make out all these accounts?-Three days are plenty of time. That settlement was made within the three days. The vessel arrived on the Sunday, which of course does not count, and we had Monday and Tuesday for making out the accounts. The Monday was a mail day, and we put them off until Tuesday. We employed ourselves making them out on that day, and appointed the men to meet us at the Shipping Office, at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning, and you will see how many men made their appearance out of a crew of fifty men.

14,663. How many of them did so?-I have not counted them over, but the dates are all there when the men were settled with, with the exception of one man, John Robertson, Yell, who has not made his appearance yet. Mr. Tait sent him a verbal message, requesting him to come down and get his wages, but he has not attended to it.

14,664. I see that one of these men was settled with on 15th May, being the day after the vessel arrived?-That has been an exceptional case. The man had probably been anxious to get away, but I don't remember.

14,665. I also see that a number of them did come forward on the 17th, or within a few days after it?-Yes. They came just when it suited them. I think there were only about a dozen who came on the 17th out of the fifty.

14,666. How soon were they all cleared off, except the one man who has not come yet?-I could not answer that question without referring to the book, but most of them would be within a month. There are always a few exceptional cases in every ship, of men who either do not require the money, or who have something which prevents them from coming.

14,667. Had you ever got a ship cleared off so rapidly before?- Frequently.

14,668. But not before 1871?-Yes; in 1870 and 1869 we got them settled with as rapidly. The settlements are never put off by the agents, but the men may stay away as long as they like of their own free will.

14,669. I suppose the agent seldom continues to furnish supplies after the men have returned from their whaling voyage?-They don't get any supplies afterwards, as a rule.

14,670. Is there anything more you wish to say?-There are some parts of Mr. Hamilton's report which I think I ought to notice.

14,671. Have you heard any part of the evidence of Mr. Robertson or Mr. Jamieson with regard to that report?-I heard a part of Mr. Jamieson's evidence this morning, but I did not hear Mr. Robertson's. Mr. Hamilton says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man.' That is incorrect, so far as my experience goes.

14,672. Have you known any case of a man who did carry his custom to another shop?-Yes, I have known several cases of that kind, but I could not name them. There have been men who had money in their possession at the time of engaging, who did not purchase their outfit from us.

14,673. Would there be one in 1870 of all the men engaged by you?-I could not say; but I have known some of the men who purchased their outfit from us for cash at the time of engaging and who had no accounts whatever.

14,674. Were any lists exchanged of these men?-Never, to my knowledge.

14,675. The only lists you know of were those which related to men in your debt who had not paid up this debt?-Yes, and that was only previous to 1867.

14,676. Have there been no such lists exchanged since then?-Not that I remember.

14,677. Have you verbally mentioned the names of such men to other agents, and made inquiries about them since 1867?-I don't remember any particular case.

14,678. May you have done so?-Yes.

14,679. And many such inquiries have been made at you?-It is possible. I don't remember of it being done, but I would not say that it had.

14,680. Does it happen in your experience that green hands have generally to hand back the whole of their earnings to the agent?- Green hands frequently do so, where their wages are low.

14,681. And they may perhaps remain still in the agent's debt?- Possibly in some cases they do, but it is the interest of the agent now to have as few green hands as possible.

14,682. Was that his interest before 1867?-Not so much as it is now. Mr. Hamilton also says that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the men in debt to him again. That is not the fact.

14,683. Do you mean that it is not the fact that it is his interest to do so?-It is not his interest; and it is not the fact that he does it, to my knowledge.

14,684. Is it not the interest of the agent to get man to take goods from him?-It is the interest of the agent to sell goods to a man, but not to get him into his debt.

14,685. But if a man takes goods from the agent, is he not in the agent's debt?-He does not leave it as debt. When a man gets his wages, it is the interest of the agent to sell as much goods to him as possible; but that is a cash transaction over the counter after the settlement

14,686. Are there many such cash transactions?-A good many-not so many at the time of settlement; but we see the men repeatedly after they have been paid.

14,687. Do they come back to you and spend part of the cash they have got?-Yes. I cannot tell whether it is the same cash or not, but they do spend cash. We see them almost daily.

14,688. When you have been settling in Mr. Tait's office with the men who had been at Greenland, was it usual, when they came down from the Custom House, to ask them if they wanted any goods?-Sometimes we did that, and sometimes not; but we never pressed them to take goods.

14,689. But it was not unusual to ask them?-We might ask them if they required anything, and sometimes they bought something from us after settlement.

14,690. In that case would it be added to their account at the time, or would there just be a handing back of the cash to you for the goods?-Just a handing back of the cash.

14,691. Such purchases are usually made after settlement?-They are always made after settlement, at least almost invariably; but occasionally I have seen men purchasing goods and laying them aside until they got their money, and then paying for them. In that case the goods were not entered into any book, but were just put up into a parcel and laid aside for them.

[Page 369]

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Dr. ROBERT COWIE, examined.

14,692. You are a medical practitioner in Lerwick?-I am.

14,693. Are you a native of Shetland?-Yes; a native of Lerwick.

14,694. Have you lived here almost all your life?-Yes; except when I was south for my education.

14,695. I presume you have had many opportunities of mixing with all orders of people here in the course of the practice of your profession, and also previously to some extent?-I have.

14,696. You are acquainted with the fact that a system of barter prevails very extensively in different parts of the islands?-Yes, almost universally.

14,697. And that both fish and hosiery are paid for, to a considerable extent, in that way?-Yes.

14,698. With regard to hosiery, has it come within your own knowledge that knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and for the community?-Yes, in drapery goods.

14,699. In what way has that been forced upon your attention?- Sometimes in the discharge of my professional duties, I have observed that there was an utter disproportion between the clothing and the food of these knitters. I am no judge as to the value or quality of the goods, but many of them are clothed in a very gaudy, showy manner, and in a way quite inconsistent with their position in life. I have reason to know at the same time that their food is utterly insufficient. I have known knitting girls, one might almost say, starving or very nearly, starving, when they were at the same time very well dressed or dressed in a very showy manner; and I would give an illustration of that. I remember one Sunday, between one and two o'clock in the afternoon, being called in to see a poor man, in Lerwick. He was very ill, and evidently dying. He asked me if I could prescribe anything that would relieve him, and I replied that I knew of no medicine that could really do him good,-that the only thing I could recommend was some sherry wine and beef tea. His reply was, if it came to that, it was utterly out of the question, for he had not the means of getting such luxuries. He told me that all the money they had in the house was a single shilling, and that they had lived for some days, as far as I remember, entirely upon tea and bread. A few minutes after having that conversation with him, I saw the poor man's daughter-who was his only daughter, so far as I am aware, and who lived with him-going to church, dressed like a fine lady. That struck me as being a very deplorable state of matters. Here were a family who were on the verge of starvation, and unable to get medical comforts for their dying parent, and yet the daughter, who was a knitter, was I might almost say magnificently dressed.

14,700. Is that the strongest and most striking instance of the kind that has come under your notice?-I think it is, in that form.

14,701. Have you seen other instances in which you were led to believe that the state of things was similar?-Yes, very similar. On many occasions knitters have consulted me as to their health, complaining of certain forms of dyspepsia. I inquired as to their food, and found it was very insufficient, while at the same time they were well dressed, at least apparently well dressed. But I would remark as to their dress, that I have reason to believe that the dress which the knitting girls in Lerwick and girls of the lower orders all over Shetland wear is not adapted to the climate. There is too much cotton in it; it is too thin, and it is insufficient to protect them from the inclemency of the weather. In former times in Shetland a great deal of the clothing worn by the females was home-made: it consisted of woollen garments, which were much better adapted to the climate.

14,702. Is it not the case that in the country districts the women still make the greater part of their own clothing?-I suppose they do; but what I intended to refer to just now was their inside clothing. I think there is too much cotton worn now, and not sufficient warm worsted clothing.

14,703. Then the worsted underclothing which the Shetland women make is entirely for the market, not for their own use?- I fear they sell it and buy cotton underclothing instead. I believe the disproportion, as I may term it, which exists between the food and the clothing of these knitters is chiefly, if not entirely, due to the system of truck by which they are paid.

14,704. Do you refer to the difficulty which they have in getting money for their work?-Yes; and to the fact that they get goods, chiefly drapery goods, for it.

14,705. Do you think that induces them to take larger quantity of dress than they really need?-I think so.

14,706. But at the same time you say that they do not have a sufficient amount of good underclothing?-Yes. I do not think they have a sufficient amount of good, warm, substantial underclothing for the climate in which they live.

14,707. Might they not get that if they required it in return for their work?-I suppose they might, but the fact is that they very seldom have it. They rather prefer to take showy outside clothing.

14,708. If women are reduced to distress for food, but yet have a considerable supply of handsome clothing, would you not suppose it natural that they should have recourse to the pawnbroker's shop in winter, or when they were in straits?-I would, but I am not quite sure if there is a pawnbroker's shop here. There is a sort of pawn in the town, but I don't think it is much resorted to. I have no doubt, if they were in a large city, they would resort to the pawnbroker's; but pawnbroking is practically unknown here. The people, some way or other, have not got into the way of it.

14,709. Have you known any cases in which women, in a state of distress for food, have sold their clothes to private individuals for it, or have endeavoured to do so?-I am aware that there are one or more old women employed, either regularly or occasionally, in going round the houses and hawking clothes which had been obtained by knitters for their goods. On one occasion I met in with one of these women. I was seeing a patient in the house of one of the lower orders, and the woman came in with some article of children's clothing to sell. I inquired how she had got it, and I was told that she was hawking it for some person who had got it for knitting goods.

14,710. Then she had not bought it, but was selling it as the agent of another person?-Yes. She was selling it, as I understood, as the agent of the knitter.

14,711. Have you had opportunities of obtaining any knowledge with regard to the amount of immorality which prevails in Lerwick?-I have heard, and I have reason to believe, that it prevails to a very considerable extent; but I have had no means of obtaining any accurate knowledge on the subject.

14,712. Are you aware whether the amount of professional prostitution is greater in Lerwick than in other places of the same size?-I am not very well acquainted with small towns similar to Lerwick; there are only one or two small towns that I know well. I am better acquainted with large cities, such as Edinburgh and Aberdeen; but I scarcely think that in Lerwick there is a greater amount of professionals prostitution, in proportion to the size of the place, than there would be in a seaport town of a similar size.

14,713. Would you say there was a larger amount of occasional prostitution?-I believe there is. I don't think I could prove it, but I have good reason to believe so.

14,714. Is that from knowledge which you have obtained in the discharge of your professional duties, or is it from general observation?-It is partly from hearsay, and partly from general observation.

14,715. Can you ascribe that in any degree to the system of barter which prevails?-I think it may to a large extent be accounted for by that system; because the knitters, I believe, are insufficiently supplied with food, and they are supplied with plenty of handsome clothing. They are thus led to walk about the streets good deal, and are in that way led into evil courses.

[Page 370]

14,716. Is that an opinion which you have entertained for some time?-Yes. I think it is to be expected in the ordinary course of events, that if women, have insufficient food and plenty of showy clothing, they will be more apt to go astray than others who have comfortable homes, and plenty of food and clothing in keeping with their position in life.

14,717. You are aware, I presume, that statistics show the amount of illegitimacy in Shetland to be less than it is in many parts of Scotland?-I am aware of that.

14,718. Is not that inconsistent to some extent, or apparently inconsistent, with the opinion you have expressed about the state of morals in Lerwick?-It is apparently inconsistent; but I am afraid that in Shetland we get credit for a higher state of morality than we are entitled to, in the country districts.

14,719. Do you mean that the system of registration here is not efficient?-I mean merely that the Registrar General's returns do not always show that illegitimacy corresponds with immorality.

14,720. Is that in consequence of the marriages being celebrated at such times as show the existence of what clergymen call antenuptial fornication?-It is partly in consequence of that, but not altogether.

14,721. Then is it possible to reconcile these statistics entirely with the prevalence of an excessive amount of immorality?-I have heard attempts to explain it, but I don't know if they were satisfactory. However, it is such a delicate matter that I would rather not enter further into it.

14,722. Have you no satisfactory explanation to give on the subject?-No.

14,723. Has it fallen within your observation, that the want of food has had any physical effect upon the women employed in knitting?-I remember being recently told by a respectable married woman, who was very well acquainted with the habits of knitting girls, that many of them enjoyed very good health, and felt pretty well and vigorous during the first two or three days of the week, but became languid towards the end of it; and she explained that circumstance in this way: These girls got an extra supply of food on the Saturday night, and they walked about a good deal during the Sunday, which, as it were, recruited them; but towards the end of the week their supplies got exhausted, and they did not enjoy much out-door exercise, and therefore became languid.

14,724. How do you account for their obtaining an extra supply of food on the Saturday night?-They were probably settling then. Many of them, I may explain, are not mere knitters, but are otherwise occupied. They are very ready, I believe, to take other work when they can get it, and many of them live not wholly by their own exertions, but partly on their parents and friends; therefore there would be extra supplies of food and groceries going into the house on the Saturday night, which they had enjoyed during the first days of the week.

14,725. Have you been aware of cases in which the way of dealing has led to the formation of imprudent habits on the part of the women?-I think they are very extravagant as regards dress.

14,726. Do they also expend a great deal of money on what may be called luxuries in food, rather than upon what is necessary, when they have money?-I think they do. The lower orders in Shetland use a very large amount of tea, much more than is good for them. It is very strong tea, and they take it very frequently during the day-I think to an unwholesome extent. I think it injures their health very considerably.

14,727. Is oatmeal still used to a great extent as an article of diet?-It is used in the country districts, but I think not so much in Lerwick. Here it is more loaf bread that is used.

14,728. In what form is oatmeal generally used in the houses of the poorer Shetlanders?-I think it is chiefly in cakes, what would be called scones in Scotland. I don't think it is so much in porridge, so far as I am aware.

14,729. Is that the bulk of the diet of a fisherman's family?-That, and fish and potatoes.

14,730. Don't you think that, taking the Shetlanders as a body, they are as well off with regard to diet and clothing as any similar class in Scotland?-I think the peasantry in the country are so, on the whole. The lower orders in Lerwick differ considerably from those in the country districts; there are more employments open to them. I think the people in the country are better fed, on the whole, than those in Lerwick. They enjoy more fresh air, and are a better-off class of people, on the whole, than the lower orders here.

14,731. Has any special matter come within your observation that you think of mentioning with regard to the system of barter in other trades than hosiery?-Nothing very special. I think the system of the men being compelled to fish to the landlords or tacksmen on certain estates is a bad system, and should be abolished. One of the many evils resulting from it is that very often men don't know whether they have money or are in debt. They may think they have means, and at settling time they may discover they have nothing.

14,732. Would that not happen all the same if the creditor were a merchant who had no connection with the land?-It might, it arises from the system of long credits.

14,733. Have you known cases in which a man was under a false impression as to the balance at his banker's, as one may say?-I have. The other day a man in the country sent for me to visit his wife professionally; and on leaving he told me he had not the means in the house, but that he had sufficient to pay me, and good deal more, at the merchant's. I afterwards saw the merchant with whom he dealt, and he told me something similar. He also told me to send the man's account to him, which I did; but a few weeks afterwards the merchant wrote me that he had been mistaken,- that he found, instead of the man having means in his hands, that he was in debt, and he had had to advance him his rent, and that I could not get my account paid in the meantime; but that he would do his best to get it for me at a future time.

14,734. Is it a common thing to have accounts paid in that way through the merchant?-Very common.

14,735. The merchant, in short, appears in many cases to transact the whole of a man's business affairs?-Yes; he appears to pay his rent very often, and to transact other business for him.

14,736. He pays accounts for him of all sorts?-Yes.

14,737. So that the man may know nothing at all of his money affairs?-He may know little or nothing.

14,738. Do you speak of that as being a general thing within your own knowledge?-Yes.

14,739. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system of dependence upon the merchant upon the character of the people generally?-Yes; they are deficient in that sturdy independence, if I may so express it, which characterizes the peasantry throughout the rest of Scotland. The system fosters a dependent, time-serving, deceitful disposition, and it cripples enterprise.

14,740. Don't you find at the same time that the people are generally very well able to take care of themselves in any ordinary transaction? They have intelligence sufficient?-Yes; they are sharp enough. The Shetland peasantry possess very considerable intelligence; but there is in them a want of proper independence.

14,741. Do you mean that the position in which they are develops a kind of cunning rather than acuteness or cleverness?-Yes; it fosters a sort of low cunning. The system having been continued, one might almost say, for centuries has fostered that element in their character.

14,742. That you represent as being the principal defect in the Shetland character?-It is one of the principal defects.

14,743. In other respects, do you not think they are a very superior class to the ordinary run of peasantry in Scotland?-They are careful and intelligent, and they are [Page 371] pretty well-bred. They have a good deal of the <suaviter in modo>, more so than the most of peasants but there is that want of proper independence amongst them which I have mentioned, and they are of a very conservative disposition. I mean by that, that there is a want of desire to better themselves; for instance, to improve their houses, or to produce better crops, or to educate their families. There is a want of proper ambition among them; they are content to remain very much as they are.

14,744. Do you mean to represent that as being the effect of the system of barter which prevails?-I think it is partly the result of the system of barter, and partly of the short leases which are given of the land, and the want of any encouragement to improve their land and houses.

14,745. As a rule, the houses in Shetland are still in a very defective condition?-Very much so indeed. As far as we can see, they are in the same condition as they have been for centuries.

14,746. Are there many districts in the country where the houses still consist of a single room and have no chimney?-There are a good many instances in which they want chimneys, but they have generally two apartments-a but and a ben end, as it is called.

14,747. In such houses how is an exit furnished for the smoke?- Just through holes in the roof called 'lums;' but I am glad to observe a disposition to correct that in some districts. In many houses lately I have noticed that they have built wooden chimneys, and these improve the houses very much.

14,748. That has been so in Unst; but perhaps your professional duties don't take you so far?-I have not been in Unst for some years.

14,749. But in the course of your professional visits you have to travel over the whole extent of the mainland?-Yes, over the most of it.

14,750. Formerly, I understand, glazed windows were very rare in Shetland?-Very rare.

14,751. Has there been a change in that respect in recent years?- Yes, a very considerable change; but in some of the more primitive districts glazed windows do not exist yet.

14,752. In that case, is the light only admitted by the door?-Only by the door, and the lum or hole in the roof.

14,753. Are there many houses of that description in Shetland still?-A good many. I am afraid I could not say accurately how many.

14,754. Can you say whether these houses are inhabited by people who are pretty well-to-do as peasants?-Yes; I believe many of them are pretty well-to-do. They have bits of ground, and good earnings from their fishing, and are free of debt; and probably many of them have some means, although that is not known. It is one peculiarity of their character, that they don't like it to be known when they have money. I believe many of the men have considerable means in the banks, but they conceal it.

14,755. Have you had occasion to observe that yourself?-I don't know that I have had direct occasion to observe it; but I have heard it, and I believe it to be the fact.

14,756. Is it the current belief among those with whom you converse, that there are many of the fishermen who have means of their own, which they conceal from other people?-Yes.

14,757. What would you say was the character of the Shetland people with regard to sobriety?-I should say that, on the whole, they are very sober and steady; and I may give an illustration of that. It is well known that the Shetlanders as seamen are very highly prized at ports in the south, such as Liverpool and Shields; and very often a shipmaster, when desiring a crew, will put into the advertisement 'Shetland men preferred.' I believe the reason for that preference is not so much that the Shetlanders are better seamen, although they are as good if not better than others, but because they are more steady and more to be depended upon. For instance, I have heard of a shipmaster who, if he had occasion to land at Quebec or some port in America, and had to take a boat's crew on shore with him to bring him back again at night, he would select the Shetland men in his crew for that purpose if there were any, as he was more sure of having them in waiting for him at the time he wanted. That is not the result of personal observation, but it is what I have heard on good authority. I may state further, as a proof of their sobriety, that I have had occasion to examine it very large number of Shetland seamen in my capacity as Admiralty surgeon and agent. I have held that office for five and a half years, and during that time I have examined probably between 500 and 600 men, and I almost never yet found any traces amongst them of venereal disease, which is it very common thing amongst seamen. That is a proof of the steady habits of the Shetland men.

14,758. I understand there are very few public-houses in Shetland?-Very few. I think there is only one public-house in the mainland of Shetland outside of Lerwick, but there are several places holding grocers' licences where the men can buy liquor.

14,759. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I don't know that there is anything further, except that I may state it as my opinion, that it would be better, both for merchants and their customers, if the barter system were abolished and all transactions were carried on in cash. I believe the system of long credits is very injurious to all the parties concerned in it.

14,760. Do you think habits of independence would be fostered among the Shetland people if they received their wages or other payments in cash?-Yes; habits of independence and enterprise would be fostered, and I believe the merchants would be able to make better use of their money by turning over their capital more frequently.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, PETER MOODIE, examined.

14,761. Are you it seaman and fisherman in Lerwick?-I am.

14,762. Have you been for a number of years at the sealing and whaling?-I have been at it since 1855, exclusive of two years when I was south.

14,763. Did you always ship from Lerwick?-Always.

14,764. From what agent?-I have been from them all. The first year I shipped was from Hay & Co., the next from Mr. Leask; and I have been from Hay & Co., Mr. Leask, and Mr. George Reid Tait ever since.

14,765. Did you get your outfit from Hay & Co. in 1855?-I did. I was then a boy, and I was glad to get it from them, because I had no person to give it to me except the agent.

14,766. Is it usual for green hands to get their outfit from the agent who employs them?-Yes. I don't think they would get it from any one else.

14,767. Did you pay off your outfit in the first year?-I did, and I had something to get.

14,768. Have you always had something to get ever since?-No, not every year. One year our ship had to come home because the master had fallen from the mast-head, and I was not clear with the agent upon voyage; but I shipped again to Davis Straits, and I did clear it off before the end of the season.

14,769. Do you always get a large quantity of supplies from the agent you ship with?-If I want it, I do, but if I like, I can get my first month's advance and my half-pay ticket; only, I find that the agents can supply me with everything I wish, and I have not taken a halfpay ticket except in one year, and I sold it as soon as I got it. I found, however, that I could get my goods as cheap from the agents as from the grocer's shop; and besides, I found that when I took my ticket to a grocer he did not like it. But the agents will allow you to take whatever you want. I have seen me go into an agent's shop in Lerwick about Christmas, and he would advance me 10s. or 15s. or £1 if I wanted it, and I paid him up for it, perhaps in the course of the [Page 372] next year; whereas I don't think many of the grocers would have advanced me one penny.

14,770. Don't you think your wife could have got her goods cheaper if she had had the money to pay for them?-No. I have never found that I could get them any cheaper. I have had groceries from a grocer's shop, and I have had the same things from agents, and I have found them to be all the same price.

14,771. It was the practice some years settle your accounts at the agent's shop, just in the same way that a fisherman settles with his curer at the end of the season?-Yes, we did that regularly.

14,772. For some years back, however, you have had your wages paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,773. Have you had them paid without any deduction except your advance?-Yes, except that and the ship's bill. If I had taken any goods from the agent before I went out, of course I got my money, and I could go and pay him when I wanted. He did not take it from me at the Custom House.

14,774. Did the agent ever seek to deduct the amount of his account at the Custom House?-Never from me. I cannot speak for anybody but myself.

14,775. Did you never see it attempted?-I did one year, but that was before they understood exactly how it was to be done. They had made out our account of wages so that the amount of their account was taken off; but as soon as we came to the Shipping Office, the shipping master told the agent that it was not to be done in that way. He altered our accounts of wages so that the money was all given to us, and then we went back to the agent's shop and paid him.

14,776. Was that in 1867 or 1868?-I don't remember which it was. I think it was in 1867.

14,777. Has any deduction of that sort been made since?-Never from me.

14,778. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and settle your account with him?-I generally do so, if I think the agent is in his office; but if he is settling with some others besides, and has to wait with them at the Custom House, I may wait until the next day and then go along and settle it.

14,779. Do you generally go down from the Custom House in company with the agent or the clerk who has been paying you?- Generally I do. I think it is as well to pay my debt as long as I am able, rather than to spend the money, and perhaps not be able to pay afterwards.

14,780. Have you any difficulty in getting an engagement in a good ship?-I have never had any difficulty in getting an engagement from any of the agents I applied to, either from Hay & Co. or Mr Leask or Mr Tait. If I told them I wished to go in such a ship, they generally gave me a chance, if I was pleased with the wages; and if the wages were low and I would not go, I generally got an engagement in some other ship.

14,781. Did you ever get your outfit or supplies from some other agent than the one you engaged with?-No. I never did that, because I found I could have no advantage by it. I have found the system better here than ever I did in the south, because here, if I got my first month's advance, I could get a half-pay ticket along with it; but in the south when I shipped, I got a month's advance, but very seldom a half-pay ticket. In some places I have paid 2s. in the pound, and sometimes 3s. in the pound, for cashing my note; while here the agents don't charge any money for cashing an advance note at all. In Glasgow I have paid 2s., and in the Sailors' Home I have paid 1s. 6d. for that, but here I pay nothing to the agents; at least I have never done it.

14,782. When you take an advance note, do you generally cash it?-Yes, here I do.

14,783. Are you not content to take it out in advances of goods?- If I require it I take it; and if not, I do not. They never asked me to take it in that way. I have come into the office, and I said I wanted my advance note cashed. It is not supposed to be paid until after the ship leaves, but generally the practice with us has been to come down as soon as soon as we have finished signing and ask to get it cashed. Perhaps there is not enough money in the office at the time, and they will give us £1, and say that we will get the rest afterwards. However, I may be willing to take it until I can get it all, and I came back again and get it all.

14,784. When you come down to settle you account at the office, are you usually asked if you want any more goods?-When you come down to settle you account at the office, are you usually asked if you want any more goods?-I was never asked to go and settle my account and to take more goods; but after the money was laid down before me, and I went into the shop to settle any small account I had, they would say, 'Do you want any clothes, Peter?', and I would say 'No;' and there would be no more about it.

14,785. How do you do about the last payment of oil-money? Is it paid at the Custom House?-Generally it is. It has been paid to me for the last two years; but last year it was not, because I was away when it was due. They asked me if I wished to go to the Custom House with it, and I said I did not; that it was all the same to me if I got the money when I cleared the ship's book.

14,786. Have you sometimes had a large sum to get for a last payment of oil-money?-Yes. One year I got about £5 for it from Mr Leask.

14,787. Do you take payment of that when it becomes due, or is it not paid to you usually until you go to get engaged for the next year's voyage?-I have never waited so long for it as the next year's voyage.

14,788. When you get your second payment of oil-money, is it just put into your hand, even although you have been running an account?-Yes. If I have been running an account they lay down the money to me, and then they tell me what my account is, and pay it.

14,789. Do you continue to run an account with the agent after getting your first payment?-Sometimes I do, but very seldom.

14,790. Do you pay in cash at the time for any supplies you get after you have received your first payment?-Yes; whatever I get I pay for them at the time.

14,791. Do you deal in any particular place for them?-Yes; in R. & C. Robertson's.

14,792. You don't deal during winter with the agent who had engaged you for the voyage?-When I have got an engagement through a particular agent, I don't think it is right that I should take the money from him and give it to another; and therefore I get what I want for the voyage from the agent that I getting money from.

14,793. But why do you prefer dealing with R. & C. Robertson in the winter time?-Because Mr. Robertson and I were boys at school together; and when I had a house of my own, he supplied me with goods when I wanted them. That was my only reason for preferring him to any one else.

14,794. But notwithstanding that, you prefer to go to the agent for the supplies you want, when you are on your voyage?-Yes. I have tried it both ways. I have tried taking money out, and buying what I wanted with it, but I did not find that it made any difference.

14,795. Is there not a sort of understanding among seamen who go upon Greenland voyages that they are to take their supplies from the agent who employs them?-I cannot say for anybody but myself. There may be such an understanding, but I cannot say. They may perhaps have asked me if I wanted some small things, and they were there for me if I wanted them; but that was in addition to my first month's advance, and they ran their risk of being paid for them.

14,796. But is there not such an understanding among the men, that they are to get their supplies from the agent who employs them?-Yes, that is the general understanding among the men; but the agent does not bind them in any way to take them. They never did that to me; I don't know what they may have done to others.

14,797. Might the men not stand a chance of not having a good engagement next year if they took their custom elsewhere?-That is wherein the agent loses; [Page 373] at least I don't know if they lose, but they run a chance of losing when the men go off to another agent, because they have then to lie out of their money. If they have made advances to the amount of £3 or £4 to a boy who has only 15s. or 16s. a month, and who will only be out three months on the voyage, they cannot get their money from him then; and perhaps they may never get it, because the boy may go upon a south voyage, and then they lose sight of him. There have been cases of that kind which have come within my own knowledge. I was shipwrecked in 1869, and young lad who was along with me told me he owed 10s. to Mr. Tait. We came back to Shetland again, but he went south two months afterwards, and I don't know if Mr. Tait has been paid yet. The boy has not come back to Shetland again, at any rate.

14,798. But that was not the question I was asking you. What I asked was, if you did not take your custom to the merchant who employed you, would you stand a chance of not getting a good engagement next year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way. I have got an engagement through Mr. Leask, and taken £3, 2s. out of his shop for a voyage of six weeks and a few days; and I came back again next year, and got a ship the same as ever. I went in the same ship again.

14,799. Is there anything more you wish to say?-I went out for Mr. Tait last year. He has resigned the business now to his brother-in-law and another, but I have no doubt I shall go back to the shop and get ship from them; or I could get one from Messrs. Hay the same as ever, if they had any ships this year.

14,800. Have you ever paid a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-Yes.

14,801. Have you ever got anything out of it?-Yes, twice; both from Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait.

14,802. Had you much to get?-The first time I had anything to get was after I had been paying in two years, and I got 30s. when I came back.

14,803. What did you lose that year?-I lost different things that I could hardly name.

14,804. Did you get the things replaced?-No.

14,805. Did you get cash for the 30s.?-Yes.

14,806. Was that cash put into your account?-No, I got the money paid down to me.

14,807. Was it paid down in the same way the next time?-Yes. At that time I got it from Mr. Leask. In fact I got it from him before the money was actually payable, because I was going south.

14,808. When was that?-In 1864. I was wrecked in the 'Emma,' and I wished to get south; but I had not money enough, and I went to Mr. Leask, and he advanced it to me.

14,809. How much does your outfit generally cost at the beginning of the year?-I could not exactly say. Some years it will be more, and some less. There are some of the men who have people that make things for them, but others have got nobody to do that, and therefore they have generally more to get from the agents.

14,810. Do you generally lay out £1 or £2 in that way before you start upon your voyage?-Yes; and sometimes £4 or £5.

14,811. Is that an unusual sum?-Yes.

14,812. Who insures the outfit?-The agent generally insures it for his own advantage, so that if the ship is lost he gets his money.

14,813. But they charge the insurance to you?-Yes, they charge the insurance to us if we tell him to insure it. For a good many years I told the agent to insure for me, but I have not lost any ship. When I did lose a ship I have not been charged for it; at least if I was, it was not with my knowledge.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Daniel Inkster, examined.

14,814. Are you a seaman living in Lerwick?-Yes. I have been here for the last two years. Before then I lived in the North Isles, on the property which is now in Mr. Walker's hands.

14,815. Have you been at the sealing and whaling for a number of years?-Yes. I have been there for the last fifteen years, but not every year. I was at the ling fishing for about seven years during that time, at Cullivoe, where Mr. Peter Sandison lives.

14,816. Why did you leave Yell?-I was one of Major Cameron's tenants, and I was put away by his factor, Mr. Walker. He offered us leases but of course we knew it was not in our power to take them.

14,817. Why was that?-Because our farms were so small; and when we had to take one-fifth of them for rye-grass, that made them a great deal less. Then the scattald was taken away from us; but we still had to pay our rent, for all that.

14,818. Were you offered a lease?-Yes; but the lease was all on his side, and there was nothing on our side at all.

14,819. When you were in Yell, were you bound to fish for any one?-No. There was no binding at all.

14,820. Where did you get your supplies?-From Mr. Sandison. We always fished for him, and got our supplies from him. I was three years under Mr. Walker. During the first two years I paid my rent, but in the third year we had either to take his lease or go and I knew that I was not able to do it. He said to me that I would have to leave; but I did not know where to go, and I had a family to support. The last year I was on that property I came a little short of my rent, and I wanted him to wait for it until I came down to Lerwick; but he said he was not to wait any longer. He asked me what means I had to give him, and I said I had not much means at all. I said if he chose to take the crop he might do it, but that I would be left to starve afterwards. He took the crop at his own hand, and never put a value upon anything at all; but he told me that if I was not off the ground by such a time he would put me off. He went away to the south at that time, and when Candlemas came round I got a room in Lerwick before he came back. He has done that to a great many more besides me.

14,821. Then you had to leave because you had not paid your rent?-He got the corn and potatoes for the rent.

14,822. But you did not give him money; and if you had paid your rent he would not have taken your crop?-No; but many a proprietor has to wait for month or a couple of months for that, and he sometimes does not get it even then.

14,823. Were you not fishing for Mr. Sandison then?-Yes; but there was a very small fishing that year.

14,824. Had Mr. Sandison paid your rent before?-No; I had paid it.

14,825. You had not been at the whale fishing for several years before that?-No; but I have been for the last two years. I have gone to it since I have been living in Lerwick.

14,826. Whom do you ship with?-For the last two years I have gone out for Mr. Leask.

14,827. Did you require an outfit when you went two years ago?- Yes. I got it from Mr. Leask. It cost about £5.

14,828. What were your wages?-£2, 5s.

14,829. Were you both at the sealing and whaling that year?-Yes; I went both voyages in the same ship.

14,830. Were you due a large account to Mr. Leask at the end of the year?-About £16 or £17.

14,831. Was that for supplies to your family?-Yes.

14,832. Had you any money to get for your voyage?-Yes. I had £12 to get in the first year.

14,833. Had you £28 of earnings for the year?-Yes, for the first and second payments.

14,834. Was that money paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,835. How much of it?-The whole of it; and then I went down and paid what I was due at the shop after I had been paid off at the Custom House.

14,836. Who went down from the Custom House with you?- There were a good many more than me going [Page 374] down,- men who had been settled with at the same time.

14,837. Did you all go down together to Mr. Leask's?-Yes.

14,838. Who settled with you there?-Mr. Robertson.

14,839. Did you go down with him?-No. One of Mr. Leask's men came up to the Custom House and paid us there, and when we came back Mr. Robertson settled with us at the shop. The person who settled with us at the Custom House was either Andrew Jamieson or John Jamieson, I don't remember which.

14,840. Did he not go down to the shop with you?-No.

14,841. Did he say anything to you about going down to the shop?-No.

14,842. Had you seen Mr. Robertson or any of Mr. Leask's people before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes, one of them told us we had to go there, and that he would be there to settle with us.

14,843. Did he tell you anything else?-He did not tell me anything.

14,844. Had he arranged with you before about meeting him at the Custom House for the settlement?-Yes, either the night before or that morning.

14,845. Had he sent for you to tell you about that?-No; we were waiting there for a settlement.

14,846. Did he tell you at that time how much your account was with Mr. Leask?-Yes.

14,847. And did he tell you that you would have to pay it when you got your money?-Yes.

14,848. Accordingly you did pay it when you got your money, as you had been told?-Yes.

14,849. Did you get an engagement from Mr. Leask in the following year?-Yes.

14,850. Had you an account with him in the same way then, and some money to get at the end of the season?-Yes.

14,851. Were you told in the same way that you would be settled with, and that you would have your account to pay to Mr. Leask after you got your money?-Yes.

14,852. Did you come down from the Custom House with Mr. Jamieson then?-I did not.

14,853. You had been told before that you had to go down to the shop?-Yes.

14,854. And you did go down and pay your money?-Yes.

14,855. Had the rest of the men been told the same thing, that they were to come down and pay their accounts after receiving their money at the Custom House?-Yes, all the men who were in town that day.

14,856. Did you get any of your supplies anywhere else than at Mr. Leask's?-No; not when I was in his employment.

14,857. Why not?-Because I thought I could get my things just as cheap from him as I could get them anywhere else; and another reason was, that if I was short of money I could go and ask him for a supply, or for a little money; whereas if I had gone to any of the small groceries in the town they would not have been able to give me that.

14,858. Where do you get your supplies in the winter time when you are at home?-We generally take couple of bolls of meal from Mr. Leask and pay for them, or get an advance of them if no trade is doing in the town, or if any of us are in bad health.

14,859. Do you sometimes get your supplies elsewhere in winter?-Generally if we have any money, we can buy them at the cheapest market. There is no particular place where we go to.

14,860. Do you sometimes find a cheaper market somewhere else?-No. Mr. Leask can give an article as cheap as anybody in Lerwick can do. There is a Mr. Fraser, a grocer in Lerwick, from whom we got some things in the dead of winter. We take them from him during the week, and pay him on Saturday night for them.

14,861. Are his things as good and cheap as Mr. Leask's?-Just the same. He only charges us the currency.

14,862. Do you employ yourself at any trade during the winter?-I work at anything I have the chance of, when my health permits me. If I get the chance of discharging vessels, or doing a day's work, or anything of that kind, I take it; or sometimes we go to the fishing in a small boat.

14,863. Do you always subscribe to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund when you go the whale fishing?-Yes. I have been nineteen years in that Fund.

14,864. Did you ever get anything out of it?-I have got out of it twice. I was cast away in 1863 at Davis Straits, and I had £2, 15s. to get then. I got it in cash from Mr. George Reid Tait. The second time was when I lost a small boat by a storm at sea.

14,865. Were you at the fishing at the time?-No, the boat was secured, but the water came in and took her away. I applied to the agent, and he valued the boat, and sent the money to me.

14,866. Were you running an account with the agent at that time?-No.

14,867. Were you running an account with the agent at the other time when you got money from the Society?-The first time I was. I had an account with Mr. Reid Tait then, and I got the money from him which I had to get from the Society.

14,868. Do you know whether you pay insurance for your outfit when you get one?-I have done so, but not during the last two years.

14,869. Why?-Because I always insured so much on the voyage myself, perhaps upon £7 or £8.

14,870. Why do you do that?-In case the ship is lost, and then of course we get that paid to us until the insurance is taken off.

14,871. Who do you arrange that with?-With the agent who takes out the insurance for us-Mr. Leask or any of the agents. They take 1s. 8d. per £1 for insuring.

14,872. Is that for insuring the ship?-Yes.

14,873. Then it is not the agent's advance to you that is insured?- Perhaps they insure that themselves, but I don't know whether we pay for it or not.

14,874. Is the insurance you have mentioned the only one you pay?-Yes; the only one I pay, to my knowledge.

14,875. Do you get any writing for that insurance?-It has never been asked.

14,876. Has it ever been offered to you?-No; it never was offered that I have been aware of, because we always had to go to the ship and leave here to go south. Therefore I wrote to my wife to go to the merchant about the insurance.

14,877. Do you not join the ship at Lerwick?-Yes; but we are landed in Shetland from the sealing, and the vessel goes south and discharges her oil, and then they send for us to go south and join the ship there. That has been done during the last two years.

14,878. When you get your wife to insure for you, where does she go?-She goes to Mr. Leask.

14,879. Do you not know whether Mr. Leask charges you with an insurance upon your outfit?-No; at least I never was sensible of it.

14,880. Do you not read over your account when you settle it?- Yes, but I never observed that in it.

14,881. Is there no sum for insurance charged in it?-Not to my knowledge; but it may have escaped my notice.

14,882. How does your wife pay for the insurance which you effect?-I pay for it myself at the end of the voyage.

14,883. Who told you about the insurance first?-Mr. Leask or some of his people. I don't know any of them in particular; but of course we have always done it.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ARTHUR JOHNSON, examined.

14,884. Are you a tenant and fisherman at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-I am.

14,885. Do you go to the ling fishing every year?- [Page 375] Yes. I was one year a hired boy, and I have been thirty-three years a sharesman.

14,886. On whose land are you a tenant?-On that of Mr. Gideon Anderson, Ollaberry. It is let on tack to Mr. John Anderson, his brother, and to Mr. John Robertson, Lerwick.

14,887. How do you pay your rent?-We pay our rent at Hillswick to Mr. John Anderson.

14,888. Is that done when you settle for your fish?-We have to go a day or two after we have settled for our fishing, and pay our rent to Mr. Anderson. We get a line from the man we have settled with and go to Mr. Anderson with it, and then he writes us out a receipt for the rent. We do not get the money to give to him at all.

14,889. Do you settle with Mr. William Irvine at Ollaberry?-Yes.

14,890. Are you bound to sell your fish to him?-He is only the factor for Messrs. Anderson & Co. We are bound to sell our fish to them.

14,891. Are you not at liberty to sell your fish to any other person you please?-Not in the summer time. We have not had liberty to do so for the last four years.

14,892. How do you know that?-Because Mr. John Anderson has told us so himself.

14,893. Have you wished to sell your summer fish to any other person?-Yes. If I was at liberty I could have an advantage by it. I have cured my own fish for nineteen years.

14,894. What advantage would you have by doing that?-We sell to more advantage when we are at liberty, but now we get less from Mr. Anderson than we got before for our salt fish, and we get from £1 to 30s. per ton less than he paid to other men who were free men. Last year he paid the free men £22, and he paid me £20, 10s. for salt fish.

14,895. Was it Mr. Irvine who did that?-Yes. He settled according to Mr. Anderson's order. Mr. Irvine is only the factor, and keeps the shop.

14,896. Were you not free to sell your cured fish to any person you pleased?-I did not think it.

14,897. But probably your cured fish were not of such good quality as those which brought £22?-I would put my character for having good fish against that of any man, because we attended to the curing of our fish ourselves. We only had a boy for washing, but we split and cured them ourselves, and we paid them all the attention we could. I know that the quality was good, because those who knew good fish told us so and I also knew it myself.

14,898. But when you got £20, 10s. offered to you, why did you not take your fish to another market if you thought you could get a better price for them?-It was not in my power then, because the fish were in Leith; they had been shipped there.

14,899. Did you deliver your dried fish without knowing what price you were to get for them?-Yes.

14,900. Why did you do that?-We must do it. We had no cellars of our own, and we had to put them into Mr. Anderson's cellar.

14,901. Why did you not get the price fixed before you delivered them?-Because that is not the practice. When we deliver our fish, they tell us they don't know the price.

14,902. Did you not see the bills of sale after the fish were sold in Leith?-No, I never see them.

14,903. Might you not have seen them if you had asked for it?-I never asked for it.

14,904. Then you have no reason to believe that you got less for your fish than they actually brought when sold in Leith?-I cannot say what the Leith price was.

14,905. But you could have seen the bills of sale if you had asked for them?-I do not think I would have been allowed to see the bills of sale.

14,906. You cannot be sure of that unless you had asked for them?-No, I cannot be sure of that; but I don't believe they would have been shown to me.

14,907. Why did you not ask for them?-I don't know.

14,908. Were you afraid to do that?-No, I was not afraid; but it did not occur to me to do so. I know that last year I was stopped from selling my fish, and free men were paid 8s. 6d., while I was only paid 8s. for them.

14,909. Was that for your green fish?-Yes.

14,910. Then what fish were you selling dry?-Ling, tusk, and cod.

14,911. Were these your winter fish?-No, they were the summer fish.

14,912. But I thought you were bound to deliver your fish green to Mr. Anderson?-No. We had been in the practice of salting them before we delivered them, and we continued to do so until last year; but he stopped us from salting them then.

14,913. I thought you said you had been bound for four years?- Yes. It is four years since we were bound to fish for him regularly; he got the tack then.

14,914. Have you been fishing for Mr. Anderson for these four years?-Yes; three years we delivered the fish to him salt, and one year green.

14,915. Then all you were bound to do was to deliver your fish to him, either salt or green?-Yes.

14,916. You could cure them or not, as you liked?-Yes, for the first three years; but this year he would not allow us to cure them.

14,917. Was that because the quality of your cured fish was not good?-The fish were good.

14,918. Did he not assign that to you as the reason?-No. When I was told not to salt the fish last season, I went to him and asked him if that was on account of bad fish, and he said, No, he could not say that it was.

14,919. Did he give you any reason for not allowing you to continue to cure your own fish?-Very little.

14,920. Did he give any reason at all?-He said that other fishermen in the neighbourhood were thinking that they might be allowed to cure their fish as well.

14,921. Do you think fishermen generally can cure their own fish as well as when they are cured by a factor who gives his whole time to it?-I think so, provided they would pay a little attention to it themselves.

14,922. Do you get your supplies at the shop at Ollaberry?-Yes; or from Mr. Anderson's factor at the fishing station at Hamnavoe.

14,923. Can you get these supplies as cheap at Ollaberry as you can get them anywhere else?-Yes. He made an arrangement last year that the meal was to be all one price, whether it was got at the station or at Ollaberry. We got it a little cheaper by taking it from Ollaberry the year before; but he made the regulation last year that it was to be all one price.

14,924. But do you get it as cheap there as you could get it from any other shop in the country?-No. If we had our money we could get it a little cheaper from Lerwick, or from other places.

14,925. How do you know that?-Because I buy some things from Lerwick, such as meal and tea, and I sometimes get the meal a little cheaper, according as the market there is high or low.

14,926. Have you any pass-books or accounts to show the prices you pay for the articles you get?-No. I kept a pass-book for a year or so, but I rather thought the prices were too high, and it annoyed me to look at it, and so I gave it up.

14,927. Did you think the prices were higher because you had the pass-book?-No. I thought they were rather too high, at any rate.

14,928. Did it not annoy you quite as much to hear the prices in your account read over to you?-When my account was read over at the time when I paid it, I knew that the price was high; but I do not think there was anything in the account except what I had had.

14,929. Is the price of your meal mentioned to you at the time when you get it at Ollaberry?-Very seldom.

14,930. Do you ask to know the price?-Sometimes we ask, and sometimes we do not.

14,931. Does the price vary throughout the season?-[Page 376] Yes, sometimes it does, according, to the rise and fall in the market.

14,932. It is not sold at one price all the year round at that shop?- No.

14,933. Do you buy your own boats at Ollaberry?-I had a boat of my own until four years ago; since then I have had a hired boat. The boat hire is £2, 10s. I got my lines ordered for me from the Glasgow market, because I thought I got them a little cheaper in that way. 21/4 lb. lines cost me 1s. 11d., including freight and everything.

14,934. Do you get any 2-lb. lines?-No; but we can get them at Ollaberry. They charge 2s. for them there. A 21/4 lb. line would be charged 2s. 3d. there if paid in cash, and 2s. 6d. if marked down to be paid for by instalments.

14,935. Can you show me any account for the lines you get from Glasgow?-No; it is five years since got them from there.

14,936. Were the prices you have mentioned as being paid for lines at Ollaberry the same as you would have paid there five years ago?-Yes, the price has been the same. The lines I am using now are the same lines that I got from the market for myself.

14,937. Did you buy a great quantity of them at that time?-I bought 25 buchts.

14,938. Did you get them for yourself only, or was it to sell to your neighbours as well?-It was for myself only.

14,939. Is there anything else you wish to say?-With regard to the fishing, I would like liberty to sell my fish to any man who would give me the highest price for them, or to cure for myself. We had some casks for storing salt, and we broke them down, and parted the staves among the partners to whom they belonged. Then there was a fish vat which is my own, and it is lying on the beach, and no man to buy it from me. It has been a loss to me altogether.

14,940. Was that in consequence of the intimation that you were to fish for your landlord?-Yes, and that I was to stop salting my fish.

14,941. Can you not get all your supplies at a cheaper shop than Ollaberry if you choose?-I could get them from other parties cheaper, but I don't have the money in my hands to get them cheaper at present.

14,942. Can you not get the money as an advance upon your fishing?-No. We could get a little, but not to a great extent.

14,943. Could you not get as much as would buy you a boll of meal?-Yes, but that would not serve for boat for the fishing season. We would need nearly two sacks.

14,944. Could you not get an advance of money upon your fishing large enough to buy that in Lerwick?-I don't think it; but there are other things required besides that. There are tea and sugar, and various other things that are necessary for the use of the men when they are at the fishing.

14,945. Do you think you would buy any cheaper if you had the money to buy these things with yourself, instead of getting them on credit from the merchant?-Yes, I would be cheaper.

14,946. Would you be any better off if your money was paid to you fortnightly or monthly?-Yes, if I was at liberty to sell my fish to any one who would give me the highest price for them; but if I am bound to give my fish to any particular man, and he gives me no higher price than he pleases, I would be no better off.

14,947. From whom did the free men you mentioned get 8s. 6d. for their green fish while you only got 8s?-From Mr. Anderson. That was at the settlement this year.

14,948. How many free men got that price from him?-There were four free men in that boat, and two tenants; but the six men that were in my boat were all tenants.

14,949. Did your boat get 8s. per cwt. for all the fish of the season?-Yes; and the others got 8s. 6d.

14,950. Did the two men in the other boat who were tenants get 8s. 6d. also?-I think they all got the same.

14,951. Where did the four men who were not tenants come from?-They live at Colafirth. They bought their boat and lines, and agreed to pay for them. We asked for 3d. per cwt. extra because the lines we used were our own, but they would not give it.

14,952. Do these four men not live on Mr. Anderson's land?- Two of them live on his land, and two on Busta.

14,953. If two of them live on Anderson's land, how are they free?-They are not free. They sell their fish to him.

14,954. But you said four of the men were free: where do they live?-They live at Colafirth, on the property of Mr. Gifford of Busta.

14,955. Do all the four free men live there?-Yes.

14,956. Was there any reason why they got 6d. more than you, except that they were free men and lived on the Busta property?- No; I knew of no other reason.

14,957. Did they not buy their boat and lines?-Yes, they had their own lines, but the lines we had belonged to ourselves too.

14,958. Was it said that they got a higher price because they had their own boat and lines?-Yes.

14,959. Did Mr. Irvine say so?-Mr. Irvine did not settle with these men. It was Mr. John Anderson himself.

14,960. Did he say that he gave them the higher price because the boat and lines were their own?-Yes.

14,961. He did not say it was because they were free men?-No, he did not say that; but had they not been free men, I don't think they would have got it.

14,962. Have any men who live on Mr. Anderson's estate got boats and lines of their own?-Yes. I think there is one man who has got a boat and lines.

14,963. Did he get 8s. 6d. too?-I don't know what he got.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.

14,964. I understand you wish to give some additional evidence to what you gave when you were examined at Brae?-Yes. In the first place I spoke as if the party I have from Lunnasting parish was still in my house but it is four months since that party was removed to another house, at the instance of the Board of Lunacy.

14,965. How many different prices of meal are there at Voe, according to the weight sold?-A party taking a whole sack will get it at a less price; when divided and subdivided, the meal rises in price.

14,966. What is the lowest price just now?-I have not bought any lately, and I cannot tell; but there has been flour sold lately for fifteenpence a peck.

14,967. Is there only one price for meal at Vidlin?-Yes; only one price for the same meal, whether you take it in large or in small quantities. That has been my experience.

14,968. Have you any statement to make about the rise in price at Voe according to the southern market?-Yes. I have been told that Mr. Adie has said that it should rise not only in his cellar, but in his book too, according to the market in the south. Henry Manson, post-runner between Voe and Lunna says he heard him say so.

14,969. But that is not what you know yourself; it is only what you have heard from other people?-I have heard Mr. Adie say so myself, that it would rise in price both in his cellar and in his book.

14,970. Do you mean that it rises with the southern market?-Yes; but at Vidlin it does not rise until the meal that has been bought at a certain price has been finished. Mr. Sutherland has told me that a quantity of meal bought in by Mr. Robertson at a certain price remained at the same price until the last of it was sold, and the same with the next parcel.

14,971. When you have pass-books at Voe, is the price generally entered in the pass-book at the time when you get the meal?-No; it is not entered until [Page 377] settlement, when it is compared with their book, as my pass-book will show. There are several quantities of meal in it for which no price is entered.

14,972. Is it entered at settlement at one price for the whole season, or at different prices?-I cannot tell. If what they say is true, it is entered at the highest market price if the market has risen, because they say it rises in their book as well as in their cellar.

14,973. You have produced several pass-books to me. Is that [showing] a pass-book of your father's in account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes.

14,974. Have you carried through some of the transactions for your father at Mr. Adie's shop?-Yes.

14,975. I see here an entry on April 21, 1868, '24 lbs. meal at 5s. 3d.:' who made that entry?-It was made at the shop, not by me.

14,976. Here [showing] is another entry, 'April 25, one lispund Indian meal, 5s. 6d.:' who made that?-My father perhaps made some entries in the book himself when he got things, and when the pass-book was not sent to the shop.

14,977. Was that entry made by your father?-The entry of 24 lbs. meal at 5s. 3d. is not by my father. I think the other is by him.

14,978. There is another entry, June 30, of 'Indian meal, 2s.:' who made that entry?-It is not in my father's writing. It has been made at Voe.

14,979. There is another entry, 'July 1, one boll Indian meal, 16s. 6d.:' who made that?-It is my father's.

14,980. There is another, 'Dec. 6, Indian meal, 1/2 lisp. 2s.?'-Yes.

14,981. That account has been settled in January 1869, you having given 21 yards cloth at 3s. 6d.?-Yes.

14,982. Have you any doubt that all the things entered in that account were got by your father?-No. They were all got and settled for.

14,983. The next account was settled on March 17, 1870: have you any doubt that all the things entered before that date were got by your father at Voe?-No, they were all received.

14,984. On November 25 he got 1/4 gallon oil at 6d.: would that be sillock oil?-Perhaps it was.

14,985. In that settlement your father is credited with 26 yards cloth, which comes to £3, 13s. 8d. There is something else that comes to 1s., being £3, 14s. 8d. due to him, and £2, 19s. 4d. to Mr. Adie, leaving a balance in your father's favour of 15s. 4d.?-Yes.

14,986. Mr. Adie takes a discount for cash of 1s. 6d.: does that mean that he charged 1s. 6d. of discount on the 15s. 4d. which he was to pay to your father?-Yes.

14,987. Why was that?-I don't know; but it was a common thing, that when he gave cash he gave so much less for the cloth.

14,988. Was it the rule that all cloth was to be settled with by goods?-The price was 5 per cent. less if paid in cash.

14,989. But was it the rule that all the cloth was to be paid for by goods?-No. They just had to take the goods for convenience; but the wool was my father's, and I could go to whom he pleased with it.

14,990. The account for 1870 in the book is still unsettled?-It has been settled lately, and my father's account is now in another book.

14,991. Do you think the things that are marked in that book were got at the prices which are entered there?-Yes, so far as I know, they were. There was no dispute with my father, either about price or anything else.

14,992. We will go to your own books. Is this [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Adie at Voe from 1869 downwards?-Yes.

14,993. Were all the articles entered there got by you at the prices which are there marked?-Yes.

14,994. I see that in June and July 1869 there is some meal and flour entered in quantities, without any price being marked?-Yes.

14,995. How did that happen?-They know best themselves why they did not enter the prices. I cannot explain it.

14,996. I show you an entry of one quarter boll Indian meal: is that in Mr. Adie's handwriting?-I don't know; it will be in the writing of some of Adie's men. All the entries in that book were written in the shop.

14,997. Has that account been settled?-Not yet.

14,998. Is that the reason why the price has not been put in?-No, I should not say that was the reason.

14,999. Is this [showing] a continuation of the other account?- Yes.

15,000. Have you got all the articles that are marked in this book?-Yes.

15,001. Did you get all the articles entered there at the prices which are marked?-Yes, I got them at the prices marked when there is any price; but there is a sack of pease-meal entered without any price to it.

15,002. I see an entry on May 30, 'To dog licence, 5s.; by cash, 2s. 6d.:-2s. 6d.:' what does that mean?-I had 2s. 6d. that I paid as part of the dog licence, and Mr. Adie charged me with the rest.

15,003. Did you pay that licence through Mr. Adie?-Yes.

15,004. Does he transact all your business for you in that way?- Yes.

15,005. Does he pay your accounts for you?-No; he never pays any accounts for me, that I know of.

15,006. Did he only pay your dog licence for you?-He only paid one half of it. He might have paid the whole if I had asked him to do it.

15,007. The following are some of the entries in your book:-

1869. May 18. 24 Ind. ml., 0 3 0 16 o. meal, 0 3 0 29. 35 o. meal, 0 4 3 June 14. 1/4 boll In. meal. July 8. 35 sec. paring flour. 30. 35 overhd. flour. Oct. 23. 1/4 gall. oil, 9d. Dec. 10. 16 lbs. flour, 2s.

Was the oil mentioned in the entry of October 23, oil which you required for burning?-Yes; and I could have got it at the same time at Mr. Robertson's for not above 2s. per gallon.

15,008. In the continuation of that book there are the following entries:-'1871. May 31: 35 Ind. meal; 35 Shetland groats:' did you get these articles?-Yes.

15,009. Have you had any price fixed for them yet?-No; but I knew the price current at the time.

15,010. There is also in the same book an entry under date June 2, '1/2 boll overhead flour,' and 1s. 3d. is marked in small figures above the entry: what does that mean?-I don't know. It was there when I got the book home, but what it meant I could not say.

15,011. There are other two entries under date June 16, of '35 Indian meal, and 35 flour,' with the small figures 1s. and 1s. 3d. respectively written above them in the same way?-These figures may mean the price of the meal and flour per peck at that time.

15,012. There are also the following entries in the book:-'June 26, 35 flour, 5s.; July 5, 35 flour, 5s; and July 13, 28 Shetland meal, 3s. 91/2d.:' have you any doubt that all these entries which have been read are entries of articles which you got at the times stated from Mr. Adie at Voe, and that they were charged at the prices marked in the pass-book?-I have no doubt the entries are quite correct as to that.

15,013. You have also produced to me a pass-book kept by you with Mr. Robert Sutherland at Vidlin, in which I find the following entries. 'Nov. 11, 1869: 16 lb. oatmeal, 2s. 6d. Feb. 11, 1870: 16 lb. oatmeal, 2s. 3d.:' have you any doubt that these articles were got and charged at the prices stated?-I have no doubt of that, and that these were the regular prices they were being sold at.

15,014. Is there anything else in these books to which you wish to direct my attention?-There [showing] is an entry in the book with Mr. Adie, September 26, sack pease-meal, and there is no price stated.

[Page 378]

15,015. But there is no price fixed of fifty things in the book?- No; that is what I say.

15,016. Did you not ask to have the price of that pease-meal fixed at the time?-No.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, CHARLES ROBERTSON, examined.

15,017. Your firm of R. & C. Robertson have an extensive trade in provisions in Lerwick?-Yes; we do fair business, both wholesale and retail.

15,018. Is it generally one kind of meal that is kept by each merchant for ordinary retail purposes?-So far as I know, it is.

15,019. Do you generally have only one quality of oatmeal in stock at a time?-Yes.

15,020. Is it the same with Indian meal?-We have not been in the habit of selling Indian meal.

15,021. Can you tell me the price of oatmeal on 21st April 1868?-It was 26s. 6d. per boll of 140 lbs. is the credit price; for cash it would be 6d. less.

15,022. How much would that be for 24 lbs.?-About 4s. 6d., or about 1s. 7d. per peck.

15,023. Would is 7d. per peck be your selling price at that time?- Yes.

15,024. Would 1s. 9d. per peck have been a high price for it in Lerwick then?-It would have been much higher than we would get for it.

15,025. Would you be surprised to find that at that date it was selling in the country districts at is. 9d.?-I would.

15,026. Was the price in a fluctuating condition about that time?- I see that a month later it was 1s. less, and two months later it was 2s. less per boll. The market was falling in April.

15,027. Did it continue to fall during the rest of the year?-I see that a month later than the last quotation I have given it was just about the same price.

15,028. Was there a good harvest in 1868?-No; but the crop here does not affect the market price.

15,029. But was there a good harvest that year over Scotland and England?-I don't remember just now. I see that in August 1868 the price was up 6d. per boll.

15,030. Was the price as high as 1s. 9d. per peck in January 1869?-It was not. I see on 26th January we have it charged at 23s. per boll, which would be about 1s. 6d. less per boll than it was in July, and 3s. 6d. less than it was in April 1868.

15,031. Therefore you would say that in January 1869 meal was considerably cheaper than it had been in April of the previous year?-Yes.

15,032. What was the price of oatmeal on February 11, 1870?-I don't have the price on the 11th; but on 5th February it was 17s. 3d., and on the 15th 17s., or about 1s. per peck.

15,033. Have you any means of telling me the price of Indian meal, although you do not sell it?-I have bought two or three bolls of it within the last year or two, and I have paid somewhere about 13s. or 14s. per boll for it. That would be somewhere about 9d. per peck, or rather 10d., because in weighing out there is generally about half a peck of loss per boll, and allowance must be made for that.

15,034. Then 1s. per peck would be rather a high price for it by retail?-Yes, it would be high enough.

15,035. I suppose the qualities of flour that you sell in your trade are more various than the qualities of meal?-Yes, we have several qualities.

15,036. What would be the price of your best flour on October 6, 1869?-I see the finest quality of flour would be about 14d. per peck. The next quality below that was 16s. per boll, which would retail at 1s. per peck; that is overhead flour, what we call fine.

15,037. On 2d June 1871 what would be the price of overhead flour?-It was 16s. 6d. per boll on 30th May, which would retail at 1s. per peck. There are two qualities of overhead flour, fine and common.

15,038. At that date would 1s. 3d. per peck have been a high price for overhead flour of any quality?-Yes, it would have been a top price. 1s. per peck was the price of the common kind; but there is only a difference in price of about 2s. per boll between common and fine.

15,039. Therefore, even for the fine quality, 1s. 3d. would be it very high price?-Yes.

15,040. What were the average prices of oatmeal in 1870?-

In Jan. about 17s. 9d. In April, about 17s. 6d. " Feb. " 17s. 3d. " May, " 18s. 9d. " March, " 17s. 6d. " June " 19s. 0d.

Up to the middle of July it was 19s. 6d., and then it took it start in the beginning of the French War up to 22s. In a week it was down 1s., to 21s., at which it continued during the first three weeks of August, and the last week 19s. 6d. September, 19s. The first week of October, 19s.; second week, and to the end of the month, 18s. 6d. November, 19s. December, about 19s. 3d. In 1871 the prices, taking them about the middle of each month, were-

s. d. s. d. January, 19 6 July, 21 6 February, 20 0 August, 21 0. March, 20 6 September, 21 0 April, 21 0 October, 20 0 May, 21 6 November, 19 0 June, 21 6 December. 19 6

In January 1872, 19s. cash, or 19s. 6d. credit. The prices I have given are all credit prices. If the cash was paid for meal at any of these times, it was always 6d. per boll less.

15,041. How do you proceed when you sell by the peck?-We always allow half a peck or a peck per sack for weighing out, and that comes to about 1/2d. a peck.

15,042. So that, when meal is 19s. 6d., as at present, it is 131/2d. per peck?-Yes, either cash or credit. We would not make any difference on the peck.

15,043. What was the price of flour at June 26, 1871?-Common overhead flour about that date in June was 16s. per boll, and the best overhead would have been 18s. or 18s. 6d. There is another quality of fine flour, the finest quality we keep, which would have been about 22s. per boll, or 5s. 6d. per quarter.

15,044. Was the price the same about 5th July following?-About the same. There has been little or no alteration on the price of that flour almost the whole season.

15,045. If you saw an entry of flour at 5s. in a passbook, and another of overhead flour at 1s. 3d. in the same book within the course of a month, would you think it probable they were the same article,-the quantity not being mentioned?-Yes. 5s. would be the price of a lispund, or four pecks and 1s. 3d. of peck.

15,046. Shetland meal, I suppose, is an article that you hardly ever have in the market?-We seldom or never buy it. In fact there is very little of it now to be got.

15,047. Then you cannot give me any information as to the price of it last July?-Not last July, but it always sells considerably below the price of south-country meal.

[Page 379]

LERWICK, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 1872.

<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.

ANDREW JOHN GRIERSON, examined.

15,048. Are you the proprietor of the estate of Quendale?-I am.

15,049. Are you also engaged in the fish-curing business?-I am. I have been so for 11 years.

15,050. Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson is your shopkeeper at Quendale, and keeps a shop there for the supply of your neighbours and fishermen?-Yes, for the supply of my fishermen primarily, and for any one else who chooses to go to it.

15,051. The returns you have made to me show the amount of dealing which these fishermen have had in accounts at your shop, and also other particulars of your business?-They do. They have been made up from my ledger for the two years which have been selected.

15,052. Were these favourable years for the fishing, or otherwise?-1871 was an exceedingly favourable year. I should say that 1867 was not more than a medium year. The price was miserable, but I had a great quantity of fish. Both the fishing and the price were good in 1871.

15,053. How do you arrange with your men about boats? Do the boats belong to themselves, or are they hired out?-I have no boats. They are debited to the men.

15,054. How long does it generally take for a man to pay up the price of his boat?-I have had no experience of these six-oared boats, such as I have been furnishing lately, because the fishing was entirely of saith until now.

15,055. Have you introduced larger boats lately?-Yes. I have got the men encouraged to take them within the last three years; and I have only supplied the large new boats within the past season.

15,056. About what number of tenants have you upon your estate?-I can tell by referring to the copy of my valuation return for the last year; but only one half, the smaller half, of my property is in Dunrossness. There are 48 tenants on Quendale and Brough, in Dunrossness.

15,057. Does that include the large farm there?-No; I am not including myself. I am holding my own farm, and I have counted it out. I have also counted out the Free Church minister, who holds a house from me.

15,058. Are these 48 tenants all men who might fish?-Yes; they don't all fish to me, but they might fish.

15,059. You have also a number of tenants in Sandsting?-Yes; I have 108 there.

15,060. Are the tenants in Sandsting at liberty to fish for any one they please?-They are at liberty to do anything under the sun, if they only pay me my rent. They are under no obligation whatever.

15,061. It is said that there is an obligation on the tenants on Quendale to deliver their fish to you. Is that so?-It is. That is a condition upon which they sit upon the ground.

15,062. Have you found them generally willing to agree to that condition?-They have agreed to it without the slightest difficulty. I am the third generation of the name for whom they have fished. They never sat upon the property on any other condition since it was purchased by us about 1765.

15,063. Do you consider that condition to be beneficial to the landlord and the tenants?-I do. I am satisfied that it is beneficial for the tenants when the landlord will take the trouble; but it is a very great deal of trouble.

15,064. Does it not depend entirely upon the landlord's efficiency as a man of business, whether the condition is a beneficial one for the tenants or not?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce, junior, Mr. Urnphray, and I are the only proprietors in the country who carry on the fishing to any extent.

15,065. Do you think it would be necessary to increase the rents of the tenants if they were not under that obligation to fish for you?- I certainly should increase their rents in Dunrossness if they were not under that obligation.

15,066. You are aware that a great deal has been said about that kind of obligation, and that some of your tenants and many of Mr. Bruce's have come forward and complained loudly about it?-I know that. I understand the complaint of a great part of Mr. Bruce's tenants has turned very much upon the question whether they should be allowed to dry their fish for themselves.

15,067. To some extent it has; but they also wish to be able to sell their fish as they please, whether they dry them or not. Still it is the case that a good many of them have spoken very strongly in favour of being allowed to cure their fish for themselves?-I would not carry on the fishing upon that condition at all.

15,068. Would you not buy the fish if they had been cured by the men?-No. I would not undertake to do that on any consideration, because you would just be swindled, and you could not help yourself in buying the dry fish. The men are not able to cure their fish and be ready to commence the next season's fishing. They could not come to me or to any other person at the end of the year, and say in an independent manner, 'Will you buy my fish?' because, in the first place, they must come to me or to some other person and ask, 'Will you be pleased to supply us with salt and, meal, and so on, and we will dry our fish and deliver them to you?' If we agreed to do so, the men commence, it may be from February, and we supply them with salt, lines, meal, and everything they require, and that goes on until the end of the fishing in August, when we must take their fish, but the fish are mortgaged already. Then, if we go to look at the fish, we find they have been salted with the least possible amount of salt, and they are just a parcel of rubbish; but we have paid for them already by the advances we have made, and we must take them and make the best or the worst of them. Besides, in the case of an unprincipled man, he has got the thing in his own hands, because he is aware that he has already pledged all his fish to you. They are still his property, however; but while the fish are undelivered, it is very easy for him to slip some of them on board one of the packets running to Lerwick, and sell them to any person for cash down. I am not a lawyer sufficient to know whether that would be a case of theft or not; but when the wet fish are weighed to me out of the boat, it is my own fault if I don't cure them so as to be fit for the market; and if any fellow steals any of my fish, then it would be a case of theft. I have seen the results of such a system on a neighbouring property, because Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh's property has only been under his son's management for eleven years. Before then his tenants were at liberty to go anywhere they liked, and they were drowned over head and ears in debt, both to their landlord and to their fish-curers.

15,069. Do you think the indebtedness of the fishermen is reduced when the landlord takes the fishing into his own hands?-I do think so; when they are dealt with in the same manner that is followed at Dunrossness now.

15,070. But you are speaking now of the previous state of indebtedness, not from personal knowledge of [Page 380] your own tenantry, but from what you know of Mr. Bruce's?- I was as well acquainted with them as if they were my own tenantry. I was living at my own place then; and when young Mr. Bruce and I went into partnership together, and endeavoured to secure the tenants from some of the merchants in Lerwick, it was part of our business to ascertain the exact amount of debts upon the south part of the Sumburgh property.

15,071. Are you prepared to say that the amount of debt due by the fishermen on that property was greater then than it is now?-I am not prepared to say anything more than what Mr. Bruce told me about the year 1866 or 1867. 1866 was the last of a series of years when there were very few of them in debt. Mr. Bruce and I were talking over the matter, and I was bragging about how small the debt was in my case, and he told me then that the debt was very much reduced; and I believe that now they are due nothing to any person except himself.

15,072. Can you give an idea as to the amount of debt that was due at the date you speak of? Do you think it would amount to the whole value of the stock on each man's farm in one half the cases?-No; nothing like that. A man's stock mounts up to a large amount of money when it comes to be turned into cash. I would not speak to precise figures; but my impression at present is, that the debt at that time might amount to about three rents, or something like £1200. There might be three rents in arrear of the rental.

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