Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 3 of 8)

Second Shetland Truck System Report (part 3 of 8)

3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was examined into.

3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper than they do.

3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much.

3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it referred to the home fishing chiefly.

3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself.

3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get it, I will be ready to show it.

3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this year.

3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?- They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to go again.

3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands. When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come through our hands, and we had not that check upon them.

3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say, and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years. Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter.

3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal.

3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher rent than we had paid before.

3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out.

3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the same time.

3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well, that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually, others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it with when the rent time came round, and of course he would not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum, payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him. The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year.

3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas,

3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time.

3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew our lease.

3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing.

3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?- If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place.

3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96] been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra.

3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No; but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor.

3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few.

3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not.

3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum.

3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can tell you the tack-duty afterwards.

3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes.

3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they choose.

3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much fish he has purchased from all quarters.

3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot.

3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?- Yes.

3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that, within the last few years it has generally been less, where they settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when we came to arrange the men's accounts.

3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market.

3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it would.

3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they would, because they have no means for curing.

3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?- I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers. If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ children for that purpose, and members of their own family.

3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for the market.

3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who understand the process of curing-to attend to them.

3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish would realize a much less price for them than you could give him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an unmerchantable state.

3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes.

3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick, was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes.

3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states, that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it.

3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes.

3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt of that clause?-Yes.

3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were two or three of them who come to me complaining about their treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to compel them to deliver their fish to him.

3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was appointed factor.

3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence.

3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know about it.

3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously.

3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him.

3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very few conversations with him on the subject.

3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in Shetland?-Perhaps it would be.

3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish than is the case now.

3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.

3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?- Perhaps so.

3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and such an obligation formerly?-No.

3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?- Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think there are only two or three of them.

3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you refer?-Yes.

3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him and offer their fish as well as his own tenants.

3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants' fish, but only a part.

3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to parties whom they appoint.,

3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also.

. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something said about it, I think it better to read it-

'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869.

'James S. Mack, Esq.

'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people.

'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear-

'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from the island or expel any such son from his home.

'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave them in a state of good repair without any indemnification.

'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While the price given is never <less> than one shilling per hundredweight <below> the average paid for green fish in the Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per cran below the market price is a common thing.

'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and land; while the price paid in <goods> is one shilling per hundred, other merchants paying in money <two shillings and sixpence> per hundred. To evade this obligation a regular system of deception is practised most offensive to the moral sense, and, as a consequence, few of the oysters go into the hands of the lessees.

'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money the article thus obtained.

'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees, and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people and surrounding Islanders.

'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being they pay the stipulated rent.

'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county, paying their rents in money.

'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them.

'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend, introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts in the proper training of the young.

'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan, in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them a lasting benefit.

'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through me, now solicit your sympathy and aid.

'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially welcomed by.'

That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes on it at the time, which I may read also-

'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack, S.S.C., Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of the Burra Islands under the present Tack.

'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat.

'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay £1 per annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be compelled by law to assist them?

'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens, would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however, are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to uphold their own houses.

'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue that the price allowed 'is never <less> than one shilling per hundredweight below the average price paid for green fish in the Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per cran below the market price is a common thing.' It is so far from the truth as scarcely to be worth denial; and if the author of this statement had been desirous to get at facts, he could without difficulty have discovered that his informant, was practising a deception on him, and that the Burra people had not this evil to groan under.

'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants, themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them, with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra people would soon be little better than paupers?

'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of £200.

'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could have no objections if the balances due to them were paid.

'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago, when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have since been selling them in large quantities here and there without let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted. The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set at rest now for the remainder of the lease.

'The fifth statement appears to be, that people living in the Islands, not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined, either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants.

'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less harmless description that had not always passed through a custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they liked.

'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it happens at this very time two tenants from these <free> islands have taken farms, and are about to remove to the land of bondage-Burra.'

3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in Burra?-Yes.

3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against that, and endeavoured to put it down.

3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it.

3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is anything.

3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think there is any smuggling going on now.

3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in Burra?-Yes, it was one reason.

3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get their goods where they like.

3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they can get supplies from other people as well.

3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and some from others.

3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they were taken up in such quantities and sent away.

3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally.

3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they take up?-No; they have not been doing it.

3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few to get now that it is no object to go in for that.

3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters from Burra.

3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that [Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows 1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . £138 19 3 " Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2 " North Roe . . 539 9 01/2 1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2 " Dunrossness . . 395 19 3 " North Roe . . 757 17 01/2

In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of land-rent due on the Simbister estate were £57; but since the statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by £8, which has been paid.

3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay them in notes and gold and silver.

3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of £5 and upwards?-Yes.

3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the past year I gave cheques to the amount of £465.

3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at the bank?-I daresay they did.

3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard to the fishings?-Nothing.

3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it.

3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes.

3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you by the shipowners?-Yes.

3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their wages

3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money paid annually to each man was £11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were on an average £1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of £10, 6s. 4d, which was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and which is printed in the appendix to their report.

3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and condemn people unheard.

3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report, without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say that, they are not in accordance with the facts.

3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt.

3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay alone, I paid £1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to get.

4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to settle with them at any time during the season.

4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally. I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they want.

4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.

4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.

4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.

4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the people have more money in their hands.

4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes, it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.

4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?- Yes.

4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?- No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages and oil-money of the men.

4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that so?-Yes, that is true.

4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick- yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr. Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson & Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs. Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.

4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?- No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who would come, without regard to what part of the country he belonged to.

4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the shipowners.

4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt, because the terms of their agreement are that when they come back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they have one.

4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.

[Page 100]

4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.

4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.

4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?- Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick and get the money for them.

4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of goods from your shop?-No.

4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when the men want that to be done.

4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so. In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.

4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of their families come into town with the monthly notes when they are due and they get the money.

4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the men upwards of £10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.

4023. When that sum of £10 is paid to them, is there a standing account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year, the men's wages and oil-money came, to £221, 7s. 4d., and we had not an account standing against any of them in our books.

4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one farthing due when these sums were paid.

4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the payment.

4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No. The final release is only signed when they get their second payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s. or 15s. or 20s.

4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was made.

4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.

4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?- Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871 also.

4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'

4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives, and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time; but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.

4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of March.

4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no account running with any of these men during the period after the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the time when they settle finally until they engage again.

4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the vessel.

4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it, because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.

4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.

4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent, himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the man's friends.

4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.

4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she sends for it.

4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.

4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them, and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.

4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter better to you.

4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody who brings it.

4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.

4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these advance notes to his family.

4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.

4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.

4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?- No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.

4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your firm?-Yes.

4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.

4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain between you and the shipowners?-Yes.

4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will not increase it.

4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.

4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer period for signing the release?-Yes.

4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy. At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that regulation about settling with the men when they are landed, because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.

4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?- Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.

4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?- They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual amount paid to the men in cash.

4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by you in goods?-Yes.

4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of 1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given them any credit.

4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may have been given under monthly allotment notes.

4062. What you mean is that the £1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have given in.

4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal, and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.

4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them goods to account.

4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of the money in full when it is due. The second column in the abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and the actual money.

4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?- Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.

4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman, when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.

4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent himself?-Not that I know of.

4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner.

4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation [Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been aware of them.

4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence, nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided for in the agreement.

4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies have been made on allotment notes.

4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his wages.

4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait until the end of the month to receive her £1, 2s. 6d. she may want a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.

4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the £1, 2s. 6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require them.

4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of them have been given on allotment notes.

4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in that way as possible.

4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment notes.

4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements. If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away, it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay it after the settlement at the custom-house.

4080. Then, this total of £10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.

4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that, but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.

4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.

4083. Does the £270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.

4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?- Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of settling with the men myself.

4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the transactions?-Yes.

4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state that sum of £1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I can state just now is, that out of an average of £11, 13s. 6d., which each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three years, we only paid them £1, 7s. 2d. in goods

4087. But you cannot state that that £1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account, and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.

4088. And you cannot state that the sum of £10, 6s. 4d. was the sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's hands in cash.

4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that £10, 6s. 4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of £11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.

4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.

4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think everything has been referred to.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.

4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish.

4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him first.

4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to knit.

4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No.

4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils.

4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at the end of every month.

4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no lines, and I have not a pass-book.

4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things down in his own book, and he would not give it.

4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?- Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil.

4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any. He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter.

4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money for them?-Yes, for a little less.

4104. For how much less?-Not much.

4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got money?-No; I would be better off with the money.

4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal.

4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your knitting?-No.

4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in the turnips.

4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your father and mother?-Yes.

4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small) bit.

4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater.

4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the meal we wanted.

4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any person who would give us meal for them.

4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes.

4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes, sometimes.

4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes, when we require anything.

4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness, Sandwick.

4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from you?-No.

4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes.

4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that.

4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often.

4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes.

4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person thereabout.

4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes.

4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back.

4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No.

4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but not much.

4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then.

4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little.

4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will get a shilling and a sixpence at a time.

4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for them.

4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes.

4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?- Yes.

4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton.

4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year for meal and money?-I could not say.

4136. You will get about £6 or £7 worth of dress in the course of a year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't require it all.

4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes.

4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined.

4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?- Yes.

4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for Mr. Robert Linklater for four years.

4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.

4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes.

4143. Do you ever get money?-No.

4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he said he expected money from me, and not I from him.

4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes.

4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his goods?-Yes.

4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?- Yes.

4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several persons for oil to see to knit.

4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes.

4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons.

4151. To neighbours?-Yes.

4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given tea.

4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil.

4154. When did you do that last?-Last year.

4155. Did you do it often?-Three times.

4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?- Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted.

4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could get it from.

4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea to Mitchell Sandison for wool.

4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No.

4160. It was always tea?-Yes.

4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can get for it.

4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No.

4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No.

4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No.

4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?- Yes.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North Channerwick.

4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes.

4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes,

4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once.

4170. Did you get it?-No.

4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I wanted it for at that time.

4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes.

[Page 104]

4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes.

4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might make more of it in some other shops.

4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never got money from Mr. Linklater.

4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket, and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes, often.

4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at other things than knitting?-Yes.

4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where there were better articles.

4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's.

4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery.

4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson.

4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good.

4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr. Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy things of great value from them.

4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses. I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a splendid bargain of it for money.

4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price because it was to be paid money.

4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't think it.

4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price

4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes.

4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with money if I have it.

4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for your knitting?-No, I have never done that.

4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the use of your family?-Yes.

4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got in exchange for their hosiery?-No.

4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say any person who has done it.

4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half of it in money.

4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was refused it.

4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr. Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own worsted.

4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little.

4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes, always in goods.

4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No; because they always said they never gave money; so there was no use asking.

Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined.

4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf, Lerwick?-Yes.

4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself and sell what I have made.

4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any one.

4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in that way.

4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?- Yes.

4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in the usual way?-Yes.

4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any money.

4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally half shawls that I knit.

4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me.

4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that sort of way.

4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your knitting?-Yes, much rather.

4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed.

4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in price according to the quality of them.

4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s.

4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I would be quite content to do with that.

4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in cash than of the 16s. in goods.

4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods.

4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names of two shops.]

4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?- Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods.

4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it.

4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often.

4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I went there very often, but I have not gone for many years.

4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your 14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's.

4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my other industry.

4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to, besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers.

4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with which to pay school fees?-Yes.

4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who have.

4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them quite well.

4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange for their work.

4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time.

4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business of mine; I don't know.

4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she did not say, and I did not ask.

4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?- Yes.

4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.]

4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the Lerwick knitters especially.

4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter season.

Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined.

4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes.

4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie, and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes.

4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop.

4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so.

4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?- The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d.

4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another, and I think 3s. is about the lowest.

4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we get there.

4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little.

4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots.

4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons.

4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things, compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No.

4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the fishermen there yet.

4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I was connected with the fishing there.

4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick.

4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so.

4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such cases since I went there.

4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest of the year.

4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes.

4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been five months there.

<Adjourned>.

Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined.

4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.

4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of Sumburgh.

4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that rule.

4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.]

4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes.

4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I remember. That would be in the spring of 1871.

4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier.

4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No.

4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's office.

4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No.

4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No.

4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?- No; we should like a lease.

4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106] thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf, as we say, as we should like.

4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we shall.

4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish.

4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to him in a fresh state.

4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the rule very little so that I have not been called in question.

4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of your having it?-Yes.

4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish to other parties?-No, I have paid none.

4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines; but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be warned, or might be warned, on that account.

4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh.

4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant. I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms.

4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce.

4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule came into force.

4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far as I know.

4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?- Not so far as I know.

4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is not always the same price.

4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes, for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one price for saith.

4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle. We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that time.

4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have been a month earlier.

4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I remember.

4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr. Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then.

4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes.

4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large fish you get in summer?-Yes.

4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith.

4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines, and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only difference between the kinds of fishing with us.

4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all the fishing.

4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it.

4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?- Not so far as I know.

4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?- No.

4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that kind that I remember of.

4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That was under old Mr. Bruce.

4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it.

4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr. Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.

4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us. That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.

4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay & Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally good, but there are other things there which are as good and as cheap.

4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin Henderson's.

4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile.

4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that.

4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr. Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr. Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property.

4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?- There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island, and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side.

4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but we are on the south point, so it does not much matter.

4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all in equal bondage.

4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes.

4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are.

4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107] would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr. Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.

4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.

4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do.

4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do.

4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far as I know.

4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's shop instead of from other places.

4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s. on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less, in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll.

4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs. to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll, and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was.

4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?- There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He said he made a difference in the price on account of the short weight, but I never knew what that difference was.

4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls, and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs.

4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?- When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose on weight.

4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is.

4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other places it is 35 lbs.

4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness.

4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness, while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?- Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll, there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what that difference was.

4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32 lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price.

4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at settlement.

4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle.

4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No.

4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes.

4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price.

4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known.

4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men present who can tell that.

4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or required, it slipped past me.

4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way, he has but a poor chance.

4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our shop account.

4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that time?-I cannot speak for others.

4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No.

4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember.

4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him, and found the accounts run pretty straight.

4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small note-book]

4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been anything marked against me which I have not had.

4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own handiwork.

4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your own, made as you got the articles?-Yes.

4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me the prices when I got them.

4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your private memorandum were the same as those charged against you at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth mentioning.

4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?- I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me, 'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way, there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he would not swear he was right.

4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick, and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it is 3s. a boll dearer at least.

4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an account for several years back?-Yes.

4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement, and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the price of his meal.

4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I did not know the prices until then.

4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you remembered the prices which were charged against you at settlement?-Yes.

4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869.

4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?- Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month.

4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?- Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick.

4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal with him.

4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes.

4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?- Last night.

4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these things so distinctly, as I have not compared them.

4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?- Mostly everything.

4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his property, they must fish to him.

4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr. Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly bring before you.

4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when we required it.

4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very bad season.

4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for them?-We believe so.

4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season.

4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have money to get.

4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's curers?-Yes.

4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your land?-I did not know that by experience until last year.

4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him. I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if you want him.

4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the day of the month I cannot state.

4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was before we settled,-perhaps in January.

4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my boy should take the wages that he had been offered.

4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay them tolerably well.

4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known that.

4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him.

4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought as a beach boy the previous year.

4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness.

4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay.

4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season.

4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after.

4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it. The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing, but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and search the parish for another to fill his place.

4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very common, but they do happen sometimes.

4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?- Yes.

4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in public what was said to me.

4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not know where to go if I should be turned off.

4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all he said?-Yes.

4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I knew it by his voice and tone.

4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money out of him.

4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No, he did not say that.

4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I could state.

4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept my word that he should not work for any other man if you required him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he worked for Mr. Bruce that year.

4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him; and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than £3, but he did not say how much more.

4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has been done.

4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at settlement.

4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop, or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes.

4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in name of a beach boy?-Yes.

4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15, and so on.

4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble and without a gloom.

4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife.

4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy. Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for him, and anything else he may require.

4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that point.

4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No.

4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied to them during the season than the amount of their wages at settlement?-I can say nothing about that.

4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore.

4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of the money is taken by the proprietor.

4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?- We think so.

4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted.

4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord.

4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their share of the proceeds?-Yes.

4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these occasions in the landlord's store?-No.

4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes.

4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe, so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case. Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land, the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our case worse than before.

4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for us. It cannot remedy our case.

4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?- From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning, after I have prepared it for winter.

4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at a reasonable figure.

4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate still.

4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their fishing.

4419. Do you mean that your farm does not pay its own rent from the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us for half the year.

4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent, and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to pay both the land rent and the meal.

4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our circumstances would be improved.

4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of our fishing at the same time.

4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your own price?-Yes.

4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?- We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to that.

4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves.

4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it.

4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not had a chance to cure them ourselves.

4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence Shewan is one.

4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes.

4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes.

4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing anything else. There are others who cure them besides him.

4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but that must improve his circumstances too.

4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness, also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish.

4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present who have done so.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined.

4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.

4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north.

4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?- Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know.

4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is.

4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I deliver my fish, which is called Voe.

4440. What is the shopkeeper's name there?-Henry Isbister.

4441. Is that shop near Boddam?-Yes, it is just at Boddam.

4442. Is that store managed in much the same way Goudie has described with regard to the store at Grutness?-No, not exactly in the same way. Most of the things which are kept there are much the same as in other places.

4443. Do you mean that the quality of the goods is the same?- Yes, it is much the same as elsewhere.

4444. And you don't complain of the prices there?-No, not of the things that I deal in myself.

4445. What are these-meal and tea?-No; I deal very little in these things there, because it has pleased God that I could mend myself in another way.

4446. In what way?-By going to another store.

4447. Then you are not obliged to deal with that store at all?-No, I am not obliged to go to that store unless I like.

4448. Is that because you have ready money with which to buy at another store?-Exactly.

4449. You have always got some money in your hands?-Yes.

4450. Do you sometimes buy in Lerwick?-Yes.

4451. But you also buy at Mr. Bruce's store at Voe?-Yes; some trifling things, such as rope or iron hoop, or the like of that; and these are sold at much the same prices there as I can get them for at other places.

4452. Do you pay for them in ready money?-No.

4453. They are put into your account and settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.

4454. Where do you get your provisions?-I get them sometimes at Gavin Henderson's, and sometimes at Lerwick.

4455. What do you pay for meal by the boll at Henderson's?-I could not exactly say, because I don't have to run an account for that. Generally I pay for it at once.

4456. Then, at settling time with Mr Bruce, do you generally get a large balance in cash?-Whether it is large or small, I get it in cash at the beginning of the year, at the settling time.

4457. Do you sometimes get advances in the course of the year while the fishing is going on?-Sometimes I do, if I require them.

4458. Have you often asked for advances of that kind?-I have.

4459. Have they ever been refused?-Never. I always got them when I had money coming to me.

4460. Do you mean that you always got them when he was due you money?-Yes. Sometimes, even if he had been due me a little money, he might not perhaps have had money beside him to supply me with; but when he had it I always got it, whether I had it to get or not.

4461. What has been the amount of money due to you for fish during the last two or three years?-I have a few receipts here which will show that. [Produces accounts.]

4462. This account [showing] is for 1870; and it contains rent, £6; roads, 4s. 6d.; poor-rate, 9s.: is that the tenant's half?-Yes.

4463. Then there is a charge, 'To share of rent of hill:' is that the scattald which you hold along with your neighbours?-Yes; and which the neighbouring landlord is not taking a rent for at all. It all runs scattald together.

4464. Is the neighbouring landlord Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

4465. On his land, does the rent of the scattald come [Page 111] into the rent of the farms?-There is no rent paid for the scattald at all on his land. It is used in the same way by all the tenants.

4466. When was the additional payment charged against you first for scattald?-Two years ago.

4467. Then there is cash for kirk seats, 3s.: why do you pay your kirk seats through your landlord?-I have paid them all along through him.

4468. Then there is-To account in Boddam shop, 18s. 61/2d.; to account in Grutness shop, 1s. 9d.; and then on April 25, by cash, £6, 14s. 7d.: that shows that you had not settled until April 25th?- Yes.

4469. Are you often as late as that in settling?-No; that was the latest I ever knew.

4470. Was it your fault that the settlement was so late?-No; I should have liked to have settled sooner.

4471. Do you know any reason why you could not have settled sooner, even in November, when the fishing was over?-I don't know any reason for that, except that they did not want to do it. That is the only way in which I can account for it.

4472. Have you asked for a settlement to be made with you at that time?-I have not; because I thought there was no use doing it.

4473. There are entries here-by saith, by ling, by cod: were these for small fish caught during the winter?-There was a company of men who were pursuing the herring fishing; one part of the company were trying to prosecute the saith fishing for a time, until the others saw whether there were any herring to be got, and my proportion was one-twelfth share of the fish caught at the time.

4474. That was an extra thing altogether?-Yes; and each man's proportion was put in his account.

4475. Is the amount of cash paid you, £6, 14s. 7d., a usual sort of sum for you to get at settlement?-No; it is sometimes smaller. Sometimes it is nothing at all, and I have been in debt.

4476. Has that happened often?-Yes, it happened frequently for some years before that. I have no accounts for these years.

4477. I see that in 1865 there is marked a balance of £2, 1s. 5d. Was that a balance which was due by you the year before?-Yes.

4478. Then 1864 had been a bad year, and Mr. Bruce had advanced you money above the price of your fish for that year?- Yes.

4479. Was that money advanced to you after settlement?-No; it was a balance that had been carried over some years before.

4480. When that balance was existing, did you consider yourself obliged to deal in Mr. Bruce's shop rather than at another?-I was obliged so far to deal at his shop, because I could not think of going to another man and asking credit from him, when I saw no way of making provision to pay him. I could not expect any man to supply me in my necessity when I had no possible way of repaying him.

4481. But you were already in Mr. Bruce's debt?-Yes, at that time I was.

4482. Would you have been bound by that, supposing you had not been bound by the terms on which you held your land, to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, and to deal at his store?-No, I don't believe I would, if I had been at liberty to deal elsewhere at any other time.

4483. Have you ever paid any fines or liberty money for yourself or for any of your family?-None whatever.

4484. Have you understood that you were liable to pay such fines?-I understood that I was liable to pay a fine or to receive a warning if I did not fish for my landlord.

4485. But would you have been liable to pay anything besides being afraid of being removed?-I don't know anything about that.

4486. In 1865 you had got cash advances to the amount of £10, 7s. 2d., and your account at Mr. Bruce's store that year was only about 30s?-Yes.

4487. I suppose in that state of matters, you are pretty well content with the state of things as they are?-I might be well enough content with the state of things as they are, only I am bound to fish for him alone, and for no other man.

4488. But you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't believe he compels any man to be bound to his store entirely.

4489. Is there really any compulsion, either direct or indirect, to deal at his store?-No; not so far as I know.

4490. Even although you are in his debt, you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't believe he would oblige me to do that.

4491. But you have as much credit to deal at another man's store as at his,-I mean you get an account opened as readily at another man's store as at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.

4492. When you are in debt to Mr. Bruce, is it as easy for you to open an account at Mr. Henderson's store, and to get goods on credit there, as to get goods Mr. Bruce's shop?-I might find it as easy, only I don't know whether Mr. Henderson would be inclined to give it to me.

4493. Do you think Mr. Henderson would not be as willing to give it to you as Mr. Bruce's man at Voe?-I think he would not, if he saw no way by which I was likely to pay him.

4494. Mr. Henderson, I understand, does not buy fish?-He does.

4495. But he knows that you would not be at liberty to sell your fish to him?-Yes, he knows that.

4496. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were selling them to him?-I don't believe I would get any worse.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.

4497. You are a fisherman at Dunrossness?-I am.

4498. Have you a piece of ground of your own?-I am not a landholder. I live with my sister and brother-in-law.

4499. I have received a letter from Dunrossness, dated 30th December and signed Henry Gilbertson: was that letter written by you?-No. There is another person of that name living at Dunrossness.

4500. How do you distinguish yourself from him?-I am a fisherman, and he is a tailor.

4501. Is he a relation of yours?-He is my cousin.

4502. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie to-day: do you know from your own experience that it is in the main correct?-So far as my experience goes, I could not say that he has deviated a single word from the truth.

4503. Were you, when young, employed as a beach boy?-No. I would not go, because if they had bound me to that, I would have left the island, as I did.

4504. Did you leave in order to avoid being employed as a beach boy?-It was not exactly for that; but I was past being a beach boy before Mr. Bruce took the fishing.

4505. You have now come back there, and employ yourself as a fisherman in Mr. Bruce's boats?-Yes.

4506. Are you settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; in the same way as the landholders are settled with.

4507. Do you run an account at the store in the same way, also?- Yes, sometimes; but I am under no obligation to do so, because I am a man who can get credit at any place.

4508. Do you consider yourself at liberty to fish for any person you please to engage with?-Not at all. Although I sit as a lodger in my brother-in-law's house, I am under the same obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce as one who is a landholder.

4509. How is that?-Because if I did not do so, my brother-in-law would be warned out for my offence.

4510. How do you know that?-Because I have evidence to prove it in the case of a brother of my brother-in-law's, who dried a few hundredweight of fish for himself, and for that offence his father was warned out, and had to pay a fine of 31s. 6d. before he got liberty to sit.

[Page 112]

4511. What was his name?-James Harper, sen.

4512. Was that long ago?-Six or seven years ago. I could not say exactly to a season back or forward.

4513. Did you know of that case at the time from Harper himself?-Yes, I was acquainted with the circumstance, and the day before I came here the man told me he had to pay the money.

4514. So that has served you as a warning, since you came back to live with your brother-in-law, that you must fish to Mr. Bruce?- Yes.

4515. Do you think you would be better off if you were at liberty to deliver your fish to any merchant you liked?-I would.

4516. In what way?-Because I could make more of them.

4517. Would you get a larger price for your fish?-Yes. I would perhaps get a larger price; but then I would have a great advantage too by curing them for myself.

4518. Do you think that would really be a great advantage?- Decidedly; and I can prove it by the case of a man who has prosecuted the fishing with me this very season, Laurence Leslie. I was one of the crew with him.

4519. Don't you think he was particularly fortunate last year, and that very often your fish might be spoiled in curing, and would not bring so good a price?-We have all cured our fish before, and we never lost anything worth speaking of in that way.

4520. Where have you cured your fish before?-In the same place where I now live.

4521. Was that before these restrictions were laid upon the tenantry?-Yes; one year before and one year since the restrictions were laid on.

4522. Then you have done it since without being challenged?- Yes; but it was by their own good-will that they allowed me to do it.

4523. You had some favour shown you?-Yes.

4524. How did that happen?-They just told me they would not disturb me, as I was a young man, and could either stop or go as I thought fit.

4525. If you had been a tenant, you think you would not have had the same liberty?-No, I would not.

4526. You say you can get the same credit at any other store that you can get at Mr. Bruce's: do you mean that you can open an account and get your things without paying for them until the end of the season?-Yes.

4527. Can you do so at Gavin Henderson's store, for instance?- Yes; or in Lerwick.

4528. But does the merchant with whom you would open an account of that sort not know that you fish for Mr. Bruce, that you are bound to deliver all your fish to him, and that you may at the same time be running an account at his shop which would have a preference at settlement over any account you might open in Lerwick or at Henderson's?-I generally give them to understand how I am circumstanced, and they advance me accordingly.

4529. Do you generally have a large balance in cash to receive when settling with Mr. Bruce?-I have only prosecuted the fishing there for three years; I have settled for two of these years, and for this one I have not settled yet.

4530. Do you get an account when you settle with him?-Yes; I have got a copy of it for one year. [Produces it.]

4531. Do you get that as a matter of course when you are settling with Mr. Bruce?-I asked for it, and he did not refuse to give it to me.

4532. This account is for the settlement which took place in April last?-Yes.

4533. It shows-June 27, 1870, to cash for self, £1; Sept. 16, to cash for self, £1; Dec. 22, to amount to credit of Paul Smith: what does that mean?-It was a small sum I advanced a brother-in-law of mine to help him to pay his rent. It was entered from my account into his, and was the same as cash.

4534. Jan. 6, to cash for self, 10s.; to fine for swine, 2s. 6d.: what was that fine for?-The landlord has a law that if you allow your swine to go at large, and the officer for that purpose catches them outside your house loose, he imposes a fine of 2s. 6d. upon you for each offence.

4535. Is that law in the regulations of lease, or is it just an understood thing?-It is understood to be a law that he has made.

4536. But you are not a landholder?-No; but the swine belonged to me.

4537. Then there is, to a ticket and medal for 1871, 3s.: that is for the Fishermen's Society?-Yes.

4538. March 15, to account per Henry Gilbertson, 3s. 4d.: what was that?-That was a small balance that was advanced by him for me to the other Henry Gilbertson.

4539. To 11/2 bushels salt from Scatness, 1s. 6d., by amount from boat's account, £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the amount of your earnings?-Yes.

4540. How many others were there in the boat?-There were six.

4541. Then, to account in Grutness, £3, 8s. 21/2d., to cash, £10, 15s. 81/2d.; in all £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the whole of your account for that year?-Yes.

4542. Have you anything to say about the prices of the things you get at Grutness store?-They are rather above the figure usually paid for the same things in other parts of the country.

4543. Have you compared the prices there with the prices at which you can get the same articles elsewhere?-Yes; for instance of meal.

4544. Have you bought meal there?-Yes.

4545. Was it entered in the account you have shown me?-Yes; but all my account at the shop, whatever it was for, was entered in that account in one slump sum, so that the price cannot be distinguished from that. There are no details given there of the shop account.

4546. Were the details of that account read over to you?-Yes; or I read it over.

4547. Did you find it to be correct?-Yes, generally.

4548. But you think the meal was charged higher than it could be got for elsewhere?-I am sure of it.

4549. Do you remember what price it was charged at?-Yes.

4550. Did you take a note of it at the time?-I took a note of the quantity at the time; but I did not know the price until settlement.

4551. Have you a pass-book at the store?-[Produces pass-book.] That is what I keep for myself. These [showing] are the entries for 1870, the year to which the account applies. When I knew the price of an article when I received it from the store, I put it down in ink; but I did not know the price of the meal, and I put it down in pencil when I came to settle.

4552. Here [showing] is half boll oatmeal, 11s?-Yes; and these are the ranging prices in Lerwick for the same year: March 1870, per boll oatmeal, 17s. 9d. May, 18s. 6d.; July, 20s.; August, 21s.

4553. Where did you get these?-I got them from a merchant in Lerwick this morning, Mr. John Robertson, sen. The note containing them is in his own handwriting.

4554. Did he refer to his books before telling you what the prices were?-Yes, he turned up his accounts for that year.

4555. And these are the prices at which he told you he sold meal here?-Yes.

4556. For cash or for credit?-I cannot say.

4557. Have you ever been directed by Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine to look after men who were supposed to be selling their fish to other curers?-I have.

4558. You shake your head in a very serious way at that: did you not like the job?-I did not.

4559. When was it that you were told to do that?-At last settlement.

4560. That would be in April 1870?-Yes.

4561. Were there some men who were supposed to be inclined to sell their fish to some others?-Yes.

4562. Was any particular man named to you, or was it just a general direction to look after them?-There was just a general direction given to us to inform them of any men who did so.

[Page 113]

4563. Did you keep a lookout for that?-No; I have not gone to look yet.

4564. Have you seen any of the men endeavouring to sell their fish to other people-to Messrs. Hay & Co. for instance, or to Mr. Gavin Henderson?-I have seen them selling to Messrs. Hay & Co.

4565. Were these the small fish caught in the winter, or were they part of the catch of the boats that went to the summer fishing and the haaf fishing?-They were the small fish caught in the winter. I never saw any of the summer fish sold by any of Mr. Bruce's tenants to Messrs. Hay & Co.

4566. I suppose there is a greater inclination to sell the small fish caught in the winter for ready money than the summer fish?-Yes.

4567. Why are the men readier to do that?-Because, when they sell their fish to Messrs. Hay & Co., the merchant knows what he intends to give for them; and daily and nightly, when the fish have been delivered, they go to Hay & Co.'s store and get the value for them, and there is no more about it.

4568. They settle for them at once?-Yes,

4569. In money or in goods?-Generally in goods; but Messrs. Hay's man will give them a shilling or so; whereas, if they had to go to Mr. Bruce's store with them, they would not know what they were to get until the settlement, neither would they get the goods at so low a figure.

4570. They get the goods cheaper at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes, a little.

4571. Is there any other article than meal the price of which you have compared with what it could be got for at other stores?-Not particularly, because I have not had much dealings at the store, as I generally dealt with other merchants.

4572. Is there anything else you wish to add to what you have said or to what the other men have said?-Nothing particular.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN HARPER, examined.

4573. Are you a fisherman at Lingord, Dunrossness?-I am.

4574. Do you hold land there under Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?- Yes.

4575. Do you hold it subject to the condition of delivering your fish to Mr. Bruce in the same way that the other men have spoken to?-Yes.

4576. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, Laurence Smith, and Henry Gilbertson?-Yes.

4577. Have they described correctly the way in which you deal at Mr. Bruce's shop for goods?-Quite correctly, so far as my experience goes.

4578. Do you deal in the same way?-Yes; but I deal very little there.

4579. Where do you get your goods?-I get them at different places, but my chief dealings are at Gavin Henderson's. I have also some dealings at Mr. Bruce's store at Boddam, kept by Henry Isbister, which is close beside where I live.

4580. Do you generally receive a large balance at the end of the year in cash?-Yes, I am always paid in cash.

4581. How much of a balance in cash did you get last year?-I cannot remember exactly; and I have no copy of my account.

4582. Was it £5 or £6, or more?-I think it was £5 or £6, and the rest of my earnings went to pay my land rent and shop accounts.

4583. Have you made any comparison as to the prices of goods at the Boddam shop and the prices at which you could get them elsewhere?-I have not made a strict comparison, but the Boddam shop and the other shops do not differ much in most things.

4584. Have you anything to add to what has been said by the other witnesses?-We would be very happy to have the liberty of curing our fish ourselves.

4585. Have you tried that?-Yes; I have tried it in former times before I was taken under Mr. Bruce.

4586. Where was that?-At the same place where I am fishing yet.

4587. You had your liberty then?-Yes.

4588. Do you think that in those days you made a larger profit on your fish than you do now?-I did; but there would be a difficulty in doing that now, unless we had the power of using the beaches to dry our fish on. If we did not have that power, we could make nothing of it at all

4589. In those days the price of fish would be quite different from what it is now? It would be much lower when you used to cure your own fish?-In the former part of the time when I used to cure them it was lower than it is now, and indeed it was rather lower all through. I don't know exactly what those that cured their own fish this year have got for dried fish, but I think I got 10s. 6d. per cwt. of dried saith of my own curing during the last year when I cured them.

4590. What is the price now for cured fish?-I have heard that it is 12s.

4591. I suppose there was not much difference in those days in the price of cured fish?-No; but it did differ according to seasons. Every season was not exactly alike.

4592. Would that be twelve years ago?-Yes.

4593. In what way have you calculated that you would make more profit upon the fish of your own curing than is paid to you by Mr. Bruce?-I have just made a calculation in my own mind according to the quantity of fish I caught then and what I catch now. It is merely a calculation of my own, and I do not say it is exactly correct.

4594. Did you make that calculation lately?-No; only I have always been of that opinion since I was obliged to deliver my fish to Mr. Bruce.

4595. Have you not made a note of the value of your green fish, the expense of materials for curing, and the value of the labour that you would require to put upon them, in order to ascertain whether you would get as much for your cured fish as you do for your green, or more?-I have paid some attention to that matter; but of course, in any case where a man dries his fish for himself, he must expect to have a little more work than he has when delivering them green. There would thus be extra expense for my own labour.

4596. There would also be the price for salt, and other things required, in the curing?-Yes; we would have to calculate all these things.

4597. Would you not be at a disadvantage from not having vats and other apparatus suitable for curing?-There would be rather a disadvantage in that way now, but there was not such a disadvantage formerly, because we had these things; and when we were stopped from curing for ourselves, we had to dispose of them as we had no use for them.

4598. Did each fisherman commonly possess these things?-Yes, at that time.

4599. Or was it each boat's crew who owned these implements?- Yes.

4600. Each boat's crew had a supply of apparatus for curing their fishing?-Yes, for their own use. They generally had a vat and other instruments according to what they required.

4601. Do you think they were as skilful in the use of these instruments as the curers are now?-I don't think they were very much behind, because the curer who cures the fish we catch now was formerly a fisherman, as I am myself. Further than the experience of years may have taught him, he knew nothing better about it than I did, for I cured fish when I was a beach boy, and I was also the head in it all through, until I was stopped from curing.

4602. In forming that opinion with regard to the profit which you would have by curing your own fish, have you taken into account the risk of having your own fish spoiled in the curing?-Of course we must run that risk.

4603. Then you might gain something in one year, but in another you might lose to some extent in the [Page 114] curing?-That is quite possible; but still, in the experience I formerly had, the loss was nothing to speak of.

4604. For how many years did you cure your own fish?-For a good many, perhaps five years. There is one thing I should like to state which has not been mentioned already; but I don't exactly know how far it will fall within your inquiry. That is about the days' works which are required from us in addition to our land rent.

4605. What do you mean by days' works?-It is labour imposed upon the tenants by the landlord. They must work three days' work in summer. We don't exactly work these days' works in summer where we live; but we are bound to carry a boat of peats to those who live near Sumburgh, which stands in place of our three days in summer. Then we have to work three days in harvest, and three days in vore (<i.e.> spring). Thirty hours, if I remember right, is what they exact; and we get nothing for it, not even a supply of victuals. We have to carry our victuals with us when we are to do our work there.

4606. Is not that really part of the rent which you pay for your land?-We don't suppose so, because our land is valued, and we have to pay for it in cash, or it is taken off our account.

4607. You mean that you have to pay your rent in cash, and to give the days' works besides?-Yes; and we have to pay a poultry fowl for each merk of land.

4608. Is not that really just part of your bargain for the land?-It is the way we have done hitherto.

4609. If you were agreed, would not the landlord commute these services and payments into a money payment. You might make a bargain to give him so much money, and thus get rid of these things?-I have never disputed these things; but I believe they have been spoken of to him, and he does not appear willing to relieve us of the burden, which we think is rather hard one.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE LESLIE, examined.

4610. Are you a fisherman and tenant under Mr. Bruce at Mill of Garth, Dunrossness?-I am a fisherman, but not exactly a tenant.

4611. You don't hold land?-It is much the same. The land is held in my father's name, and I live with him.

4612. Are you bound to fish to Mr. Bruce, as being one of your father's family?-Yes.

4613. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and the other witnesses from Dunrossness. Do you think it is generally correct?-I think it is generally correct; but Laurence Smith did not appear to know much about the shop at Boddam, except for ropes and iron, and so on, which is much about the same price as elsewhere.

4614. Can you say anything more about that shop than he did?- The tea, cotton, canvas, and moleskins are all much higher there than at Henderson's. I have no note of the price at Henderson's; but I have notes of the prices at Boddam in my pass-books.

4615. What is the price of moleskins at the Boddam shop?-I don't know if I have the price of any moleskins here.

4616. Is this [showing] your pass-book at the Boddam store?- Yes.

4617. Is it kept by the shopkeeper there?-It is kept by Isbister. I took it back and forward every time I got goods, and had them entered there. That book is for 1868.

4618. I see it is for Hans Leslie, and not for George Leslie. Is your father's name Hans?-Yes.

4619. This book only comes down to February 1869. Have you not kept a pass-book since then?-Yes; but it is not settled yet.

4620. Is that account from March 1867 to February 1869 [showing] not settled?-Yes, it is settled; but the account for 1870 is not settled yet. I have it in another pass-book, because this one had fallen aside.

4621. And you have now another one in the hands of the shopkeeper?-Yes.

4622. Do you know the prices which were charged against you for goods in 1870?-No. I have seen them in the pass-book when I had it at home; but don't remember what they were.

4623. But the settlement for 1870 is past?-Yes; it was 1871 I was thinking of.

4624. But there is nothing in this book for 1870?-No. This [producing another book] is the book for 1870 up till the settlement of 1871.

4625. Have you no pass-book in your possession later than that?- No.

4626. Show me some of the things in that book which are charged higher to you than you could have got them elsewhere?-I say that tea and cotton are generally charged higher. I have had very little cotton from that shop, but I have asked the prices, and found them much higher than at Henderson's, so that I took what cotton I wanted from Henderson's shop, and not from the shop at Boddam.

4627. Were you quite at liberty to deal at Henderson's shop if you liked?-Yes; we were at liberty in the way that some of the other men have described. If we did not have the prospect of paying what we were due, then we did not want to run into debt to a number of men.

4628. Have you generally ready money that you can go to Henderson's with?-No.

4629. What is the reason of that? Is it on account of the long settlement?-That is a thing which has something to do with it, and sometimes I have not had money to get at settlement; but when I asked for an advance from Mr. Bruce, I always got it.

4630. I see from this book that cotton is 1s. a yard at the Boddam shop: I suppose that was the price then?-It has sometimes been 1s., and it has sometimes been higher.

4631. I see there is tea at 10d. a quarter: is that the best tea they sell at that store?-They seldom have any but one sort.

4632. Do you generally get all the articles you want at the Boddam shop?-Yes.

4633. Would you like to have a greater number of things to choose from than there are there?-No. We do not take anything there except what we cannot do without. We wish rather to take it at another place.

4634. Only you cannot always get credit at another place?-I never was refused credit, only I did not like to run a heavy account with another man who was having no profit but upon his goods.

4635. Would you have been more ready to deal with Henderson if you had been at liberty to sell your fish to him too?-Yes.

4636. Is there a fair price charged for soap at the Boddam shop?- There is not very much difference of price upon it. The soap generally is pretty fair at Boddam.

4637. I see here an entry of 11/2 lines, 3s. 5d.: are these lines for your fishings?-Yes.

4638. Is the price of lines there as moderate as at other places?- The lines differ in quality. Sometimes we have them as good there as in other places, and at other times not so good.

4639. But what about the price of them? Are they as cheap there as at other places?-If the quality is as good, they are. [Produces another pass-book.]

4640. Is this the book in which you enter the fish as they are delivered?-Yes.

4641. Who enters them there?-Myself. It is example of how we mark down the fish. That book contained an account which I had running with Gavin Henderson in 1867, and I afterwards used it as a fish book with Mr. Bruce.

4642. You enter the fish in this book, and Mr. Bruce's factor enters them in a book of his own besides?-Yes.

4643. Do all the boats' crews keep books in which they enter their fish in the same way?-So far as I know they do.

[Page 115]

4644. Is that the only way you have of checking the amount of fish you get?-Yes.

4645. At the end of the year you see the quantity you have delivered as it is entered in the landlord's book, and you see that you get credit for it in your account with Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT HALCROW, examined.

4646. You are a fisherman at Lasettar, in Dunrossness, and you hold land from Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.

4647. You are bound to deliver your fish to his factor, and you settle at the end of the year in the same way as William Goudie and the other men have described?-Yes.

4648. You have heard all their evidence?-Yes.

4649. Is there anything you wish to add to it or correct in it?- Nothing.

4650. Do you know anything about the knitting which is done by the women in Dunrossness?-There is a little knitting done in my family. It might be more agreeable to some people to be paid in cash than in goods; but others again say that if they did not get the same price in cash for their hosiery as they get in truck, they would not be gainers.

4651. Do they want the goods they get for the hosiery?-Yes; and they might not get the same price for their knitting in money as they get for it in barter.

4652. Do you know the price which they get in goods from the merchants in Lerwick?-Yes.

4653. Would they not get the same goods at a lower price in money, at any of the shops in your neighbourhood?-I am not aware of that.

4654. You have never heard them say that?-No. With regard to the evidence which has been given by the other men, I may be allowed to say that perhaps I have had a little more experience than some of them, but the statements which they have given have just been what I would have made myself.

4655. How long have you been on the property?-For eleven or twelve years.

4656. Did you receive a notice, when young Mr. Bruce became tacksman, that you were expected to fish for him?-I did not receive any notice; but I was missed; he passed over me.

4657. Why was that?-I was taking in uncultivated ground to build a house upon, and I did not pay rent then.

4658. Were you aware that a notice of that kind was given to the tenants?-Yes.

4659. Is there any one here who received that notice?-I don't think any one received the notice individually, but there was a public notice that they were bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, and that they would be removed if they did not do so.

4660. How was that notice given?-By a bill placed in a public place for the tenants at large to see.

4661. Did you see it?-No, I did not see it. With regard to the Boddam shop, I have had dealings there, and also with Gavin Henderson; but there are things I require which are not kept in the Boddam shop at all.

4662. What articles do you want that you cannot get there?-I want some kind of clothing which they do not keep, and several other things; but the things they have, such as tea, tobacco, cotton and canvas, I find to be somewhat dearer than at Mr. Henderson's or in Lerwick.

4663. How much dearer is the tobacco?-It will be a penny or twopence a quarter lb.

4664. Have you bought tobacco at both places?-Yes.

4665. What have you to say with regard to the tea?-It is from 4d. to 8d. dearer per pound.

4666. Have you tried it at both places also?-Yes.

4667. Do you think you get the same quality at both?-It is the same quality. I have had to pay sometimes 9d. and sometimes 10d. per quarter for tea at the Boddam shop; and when I went to Mr. Henderson's shop, I got the same tea for 8d.

4668. So far as you could judge, was the tea at both places of the same quality?-Yes, so far as I could judge, it was. Then for the cotton I would pay 2d., and sometimes more than that, per yard more in the Boddam shop than in Gavin Henderson's, or at other places.

4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in my pocket to buy them elsewhere.

4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me, but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of money to pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and open accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly.

4671. Is there anything else you can say about that?-There is nothing more concerning that; but I have one thing more to say concerning our bondage, or our liberty, in fishing to Mr. Bruce. I have never had any help in paying rent or purchasing meal for my living, or such things as I required for clothing, except from what I could earn myself. I have sometimes had little clear money to get, and sometimes I have been from £2 to £6 behind in my accounts with Mr. Bruce, but he never charged me anything for that. I was fishing to him, and obedient to him, and he never interfered with me until my earnings paid up my debt account; but he would give me supplies although was in his debt, and if I got money from him, even when I was in his debt, I was at perfect liberty to go where I liked for the goods I wanted. If I ran up an account at any other shop, he gave me money and I settled it; and then at settlement time, if I had any money remaining to come to me, I got it in cash after he had deducted the value of any goods I might have got from his store.

4672. But when you were in his debt at the end of the year, in the way you have stated, were you obliged to go to his store for your provisions, and your supplies of cotton and clothing?-I would be obliged to do so, unless I could work at any other trade, or do any other thing during the winter by which I could earn money to purchase things at other stores. I may work outside, or do a little mason work, in order to get some money; and he will not bind me so much as if he were to see me earning nothing, but he would allow me to keep that money, and go to other stores with it, and purchase what I required. If I have a cow or a horse to sell, I can sell it, and he will never inquire or push me for the balance. I can get my money for it, and go to other stores for my meal and several things.

4673. If you sell a beast off your farm, while you are in debt to him, he does not object to you applying the price as you like?-He has made no objection; but when a man is in debt to him, he expects to get the first offer of it.

4674. He expects that a man who is in his debt will offer his cow or his pony to him first?-Yes, he looks for that; he has always expected it.

4675. When that is done, who fixes the price?-He will state his price; and if the owner is dissatisfied with it, he will give him a chance of offering it at public sale.

4676. And when it is offered at public sale, what is done then?- The sale is generally in Mr. Bruce's own hand, and the purchaser gives him the money; and then the owner who disposes of the animal will go to him if he is in want of supplies, and he will probably get them.

4677. Are there sales in your district at certain times?-Yes.

[Page 116]

4678. Where do these take place?-At Dunrossness, near the church; twice a year, in the spring, and in the fall.

4679. Is it at these sales that you have a chance of selling your beasts, if you do not agree with Mr. Bruce about the price?-Yes.

4680. And at these sales is there perfect liberty to any person to bid?-Yes.

4681. You can sell them to any person who bids a higher price than the laird offers?-Yes; but the conditions of sale are that the purchaser has to pay the money to Mr. Bruce.

4682. Is that one of the conditions and articles of roup which are read over at the commencement of the sale?-Yes.

4683. Does that condition apply to every lot that is sold, or only to lots that belong to men that are in Mr. Bruce's debt?-It applies to every lot that is sold. On all the properties there, on Simbister, and Mr. Grierson's estate and Sumburgh estate the cattle are called in; people who have cattle to sell are asked to bring them in to the sale.

4684. But nobody is obliged to expose their cattle at these sales unless they please?-There have been cases where we were obliged to dispose of them: for instance, if a man was very deeply in debt, he would be so far forced to bring his cattle and sell them; and the money went into Mr. Bruce's hands, and was put to the man's credit.

4685. You mean that it was credited to the man's account that was settled at the end of the year?-Yes. When young Mr. Bruce first began to take charge of the Sumburgh estate he wished to have all the tenants clear; and for that purpose he published a sale, and forced one of the tenants to bring his effects there, in order that his debts might be paid off. At the sale, Mr. Bruce himself appeared and gave a far higher price than the current price for the material which was being sold, in order to bring the man out of debt.

4686. Who was that man?-Malcolm Irvine, Lasettar. That is the only case of that kind I am acquainted with; but I believe there are more cases of the same kind throughout the parish, where Mr. Bruce paid a higher price for the articles than the market value of them, in order to bring the men out of debt. Of course, that was a favour to the men.

4687. Then, these sales are always fair transactions?-I think they are fair, so far as we can discern, because they do not differ in any way from other sales throughout the island. The terms and conditions of roup are the same at them all.

4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well enough for tenants in a town like Lerwick, who hold nothing except a room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant holding a small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is taken in, we must start work immediately, and prepare the land for next season. We have to make provision for manure, and collect our peats, and prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps by Martinmas we have expended from £6 to £10 worth of labour and expense on our little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing for us to be turned out of our holdings after receiving only forty days' notice, and perhaps only getting £1, or £2, for all that labour. Now, what I would suggest that instead of that short notice we should be entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine months before the term, that we are to be turned out.

4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I might have a larger price to get for them instead of working upon my land.

4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months' warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that.

4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas, if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I would get the best price from.

4692. Do you think you would be better off if you had your fish paid for as they are delivered?-I don't think that would serve me any better. It would serve young men who are not landholders better; but I don't think it would serve landholders better than to allow the price to lie, and to settle once in a season, because sometimes our crops are so scanty that we have only perhaps two parts or three-fourths of a regular supply of meal for our living; and if I got the price of my fish paid to me every time when I came ashore, or on the Saturday night, we might perhaps live comfortably for awhile, but then at Martinmas, when our rents were due, and our fishing earnings were spent, we would be in a hard case, because where would our rents come from?

4693. Do you think you would be likely to spend your earnings as you got them?-In some cases that would be so, because occasionally we have to live on a very small allowance of provisions, perhaps one-half or three-fourths, and we suffer from that. I think it is better if the money for our fishing is preserved for a time in our landlord's hands; because, in the first place, we like to have our rents paid.

4694. Would it be any advantage to you to have the price of your fish fixed at the beginning of the season?-It might and it might not, because here in Shetland we are paid for our fish according to a currency. The principal curers in the country arrange what the price is to be, and, so far as I know, they have it in their own power to make the currency whatever they think fit.

4695. Do you think the current price is fairly fixed?-I cannot judge of that, nor can any one outside, because I don't know what has been realized for the fish in the south. It is a matter which rests upon their own conscience, whether the merchants fix a fair current price or not.

4696. But you think they have the fixing of it?-Yes, they do fix it.

4697. Do you think it right that they should have the fixing of it, and that you should have nothing to say to it, when it is according to that price that you are paid?-We have no experience in the matter, or else we should have a voice in it.

4698. If you were at liberty to cure and sell your own fish, would you not have something to say in fixing the market price at which the fish were to be paid?-I think we would.

4699. Supposing the price of your fish were settled at the beginning of the season, and that you knew then what it was to be, do you think you would manage your purchases during the season better than you do now, according as you took a large or a small quantity of fish?-I don't think so.

4700. If you were only taking a small take of fish, you would see, as the season went on, that you could not have a large balance at the end of the year?-I don't think that would matter much for me. It might do for a family in which there were two or three men but for a man who held a certain tack of land, and had to support a family, I don't think it would be any advantage. In my case, there is only myself earning anything, and it takes the greater part of my fishing, year by year, to pay for my meal and land rent.

4701. I suppose what you mean is, that you are obliged to live at a certain rate of expenditure, and that you cannot reduce that rate any lower, however poor your fishing may be?-No, I cannot.

4702. So that you must take the bad years and the good years, and make up in a good year for what you have gone behind in a bad one?-Yes, that is what I mean.

[Page 117]

4703. Therefore the present system suits you as well as any other?-It does.

4704. You could not economize more, although you knew what you were to receive at the end of the year?-I don't see that I could.

4705. And you could not manage your money any better, although you had it in your hands, and could spend it in Lerwick, or in any other store, except that at Boddam?-I don't see that I could. I have not taken any meal from Mr. Bruce now for three years, but I have taken a good deal of things out of his stores.

4706. Have you got your meal from your own ground?-No. During the past season I had to buy very little; but since I came to the place I am now in, I have sometimes had to buy seven, and eight, and nine months' provisions, besides what my own labour upon my farm could yield.

4707. Where did you buy your meal then?-At that time I had some from Mr. Bruce, and some from other places.

4708. But I am talking of the last three years, when you did not buy any of it from Mr. Bruce?-I have had it from Lerwick, and also from a store at Sand Lodge. Lebidden is the name of the place where the store is.

4709. Whose store is that?-Thomas Tullochs's.

4710. Why did you buy it from these stores rather than from the store at Boddam?-Because I could get it cheaper; I would pay some money for it at these other stores.

4711. What did you get it for there?-I don't recollect the price.

4712. I suppose the price varied?-Yes.

4713. And you got it at that price by paying it at the time you got it?-Yes; I got it at as low a price as it could be got anywhere. Besides, I took weaker qualities of grain as being cheaper than what Mr. Bruce had, such as second flour or third flour, and so on, when Mr. Bruce, would have had nothing but barleymeal and oatmeal.

4714. Does he only keep one quality of meal at Boddam store?- He keeps more than one quality, because he has had grain from his own farm to supply his fishermen and tenants with; and he has also had Orkney meal there, which was cheaper than Scotch meal.

4715. But you say that you could get weaker qualities than what Mr. Bruce kept. Do you mean that the qualities were inferior?- Yes.

4716. Were they inferior to any that Mr. Bruce had?-Not to what grew on his own farm, but to any that he had at that time, or what he generally kept.

4717. But I am talking of the last three years during which you have had none from Mr. Bruce. Were the qualities at the other stores inferior to what Mr. Bruce kept?-When I was having none from Mr. Bruce I did not know exactly what qualities he had.

4718. But you knew that what you were getting was cheaper than what you could get at his store?-Yes, I knew that.

4719. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No; I think that is all.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, recalled.

4720. I believe you saw the bill, which was put up when Mr. Bruce came, to which the witness Halcrow referred?-Yes, I saw it. There was a man sent round among the tenants with a letter, and he read it to them.

4721. Who was the man?-He is dead: it was John Harper, Virkie.

4722. To whom was the letter addressed?-To the tenants generally. Sometimes when he came to a town, he called the tenants together and read it to them; and when he met one of the tenants by himself, he just read it over to him.

4723. Were the tenants called together at Trosswick, where you live?-Yes.

4724. Was the letter read over to the whole of them at once?- Yes.

4725. Did you hear it?-Yes.

4726. Do you remember its terms?-I do not; but the letter was from old Mr. Bruce, and the substance of it was, that he had given us over into the hands of his son.

4727. As tacksman?-He did not say whether it was as tacksman or not, but he said that the penalty of our not fishing to him would be that we should get our warning.

4728. Was it stated in the letter that young Mr. Bruce was setting up as a fish-curer?-I could not exactly say, but it was known to the tenants that he was going to do so.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, recalled.

4729. I believe you were at Fair Isle three weeks ago?-Yes; three or four weeks ago, with a smack belonging to Mr. Bruce.

4730. Was that for the purpose of delivering supplies of provisions to the people on the island?-It was for the purpose of landing two men on the island, one of whom was to be a farmer, and the other was a mason to build dykes.

4731. Had you been there before?-Never.

4732. Did you meet with any of the people while you were there, and talk with them about the way in which their shop was supplied?-Yes, I met almost all of them, and I got some information about how they deal at the shop, because they inquired at me at what prices the articles were sold in Shetland.

4733. Are the people there supplied with provisions and goods from the shop at Dunrossness?-No; there is a shop on the island which is supplied from the shop at Dunrossness.

4734. Do you know anything: about the prices of goods at the shop on Fair Isle?-There was a man belonging to the island-I don't know his name-who told me that he had paid 1s. 4d. per quarter for tobacco. There was a general complaint that the prices were above the currency charged in Shetland.

4735. Did the people seem to think that there was a better way in which they could be supplied?-Yes; they seemed to think that if they had their liberty to sell their fish, to the best advantage, they could supply themselves from Orkney or Shetland with goods at a cheaper rate than they could get them for in Mr. Bruce's store in Fair Isle.

4736. Do you think anybody would be willing to go to Fair Isle to buy fish and sell goods?-There were plenty would do so if they had the chance. Mr. James Smith, of Hill Cottage, Sandwick parish, used to go there, but he was stopped from doing so by Mr. Bruce when he bought the island.

4737. Did the people on the island speak as if they were worse used than they had been formerly?-They spoke as if they got their articles cheaper from Mr. Smith than they could get them now.

4738. How long were you on the island?-I was there for eight days, and I was in almost every house.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS SMITH, examined.

4739. You are the master of a smack which sometimes visits Fair Isle for Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

4740. Do you take a quantity of goods to the shop there from the shop at Dunrossness?-Yes, sometimes from the shop at Dunrossness, and sometimes the [Page 118] goods are ordered from the south; and we get them from the steamer at Lerwick, and take them direct to the island.

4741. Do you know anything about the prices at which these goods are charged at the shop on the island?-No; I could not speak positively about that.

4742. Do you know whether the people on the island are satisfied with the supplies which you take to them?-They are satisfied with them so far; but they object to the price realized for their fish as being lower than what is paid in Shetland. I think that is about the only thing they object to. Of course they also think that the prices for the goods are dear; but still they are not so much dissatisfied with that.

4743. I suppose it involves a little expense to get the goods carried from the mainland to Fair Isle?-Of course it does.

4744. There is a risk from the weather in taking them there?-Yes; there is a risk of damage, and there is not a safe harbour there.

4745. Does any one trade to Fair Isle except your smack?-No, not regularly. There are some people who go in occasionally, but there are no others who go very often from Shetland. There is one boat belonging to James Rendall, of Westray, in Orkney, that goes occasionally.

4746. Is it within your knowledge that other traders are not allowed to go to Fair Isle to sell their goods there?-Yes; I believe the people are not allowed to buy from them. They do not exactly stop them; but I think they tried to do it.

4747. Have you known that being done at any time when you were at the island?-I think I have been there twice when James Rendall was there; and he chiefly sold in the night time when I was asleep, and I did not know what was going on.

4748. Why was that?-I don't know. I never asked him why he did it. The people are scarcely allowed either to sell to him or buy from him.

4749. Was it not because the factor forbade him to sell to the people at all that he dealt with them during the night?-Of course the factor forbade him from dealing with them, and he would have noticed if Rendall had dealt with them in the day time. I don't think the people were so much stopped from buying from him as they were stopped from selling to him. They were not allowed to sell any cattle or horse, or anything they had, to him.

4750. How do you know that?-Because I saw it myself. I have heard the factor and the people talking about it, and I know they were not allowed to sell.

4751. Have you heard the factor forbidding them to sell their cattle to Rendall?-Yes; they have told me themselves that it was £2 of a fine if they sold anything to him.

4752. Whom have you heard the factor forbidding to sell to Rendall?-I have heard the factor talking to lots of them about it. There was one, Thomas Wilson for instance; he was forbidden.

4753. Do you know that he wished to sell cattle to Rendall?-Yes; I know that he had a cow last year for which Rendall offered him £5, 10s. on the island, and he was afraid to sell her to him. The factor told him he had better not sell her.

4754. Was it in your presence that he told him so?-Yes; and Wilson came over to Shetland with us; I don't remember what he got for the cow here, but I think it was £4, 1s.

4755. You brought the cow over to Shetland yourself?-Yes.

4756. Who was the factor?-Jerome Wilson.

4757. Did he tell Thomas Wilson that he must not sell his cow because he was in arrear of rent, or in debt?-No; he was not in debt; he had some cash to get at the time of settlement.

4758. How do you know that?-Because he told me himself. I went home with him to his house, when he settled last summer,-I think in June or July.

4759. Do you know of your own knowledge that the cow afterwards sold for £4, 1s. in Shetland?-I think that was what it sold for.

4760. Did you see it sold?-No; but Thomas Wilson told me about it. I was at the sale that day. I was not present when the cow was sold, but Wilson told me about it at night.

4761. Do you buy hosiery from the Fair Isle people?-The factor, Mr. Wilson, buys it for Mr. Bruce.

4762. Do you sometimes bring it over here?-Yes.

4763. You don't know anything about the way in which the people are paid for it?-I don't know.

4764. Is Jerome Wilson likely to be in Shetland soon?-I don't know whether he is or not, but I don't think it. He just buys up the hosiery, and then sends it over to Mr. Bruce. I think the people get goods chiefly for it; but I am not sure. I have seen it sold, and seen them getting goods for it.

4765. Have you seen anybody else buying it on the island? Have you ever bought any of it?-No; not much.

4766. But you have bought a little?-I have bought a pair of stockings; that was all.

4767. Did you pay cash for them?-Yes.

4768. What do the people do with their money in Fair Isle?-I am sure I don't know; they have not much to do with it there.

4769. They cannot purchase goods with it?-They can purchase goods; because when we are going in with the smack, they are always going out and in, and they are glad to get as much money as possible. There are none of the people out of the island just now that I know of.

4770. When will you be going back to it?-Not until the month of April, or the 1st of May.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT MALCOLMSON, examined.

4771. You are a fisherman and tenant on Mr. Bruce's lands at Northtown of Exnaboe?-I am.

4772. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and Laurence Smith?-Yes.

4773. Does it give a fair account of the way in which you deal in fish and purchase goods with Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes, it gives an accurate account of it, so far as my experience goes.

4774. Were you a beach boy when you were young?-Not to Mr. Bruce. At that time the men had their liberty and cured their fish for themselves.

4775. Do you know anything about the way in which beach boys are dealt with now?-No.

4776. None of your family or friends are beach boys?-None.

4777. Have you known of any case in which a man was turned out, or threatened to be turned out of his ground for selling his fish to another than the proprietor?-Yes; I know one case. That was the case of Thomas Harper, James Harper's son, who was referred to before.

4778. That was a good many years ago?-Yes.

4779. Is there anything you wish to add to what has been said by the other men?-Nothing, so far as I remember.

4780. Do you think you would make any more of your fish if you were allowed to cure them for yourself?-We generally think so.

4781. Have you ever made any calculation about that?-According to hearsay from other quarters, and contrasting our case with theirs, we have a rough idea that we would make more on the whole.

4782. Do you think there is any disadvantage to the men in having such long settlements as you have at Dunrossness?-In some cases there is.

4783. Do you think it would be better for you to be paid for your fish as they are delivered?-In some cases that would do very well, but in other cases it would not. Some men and some families would, so to speak, go beyond their income; and at the end of the season, when their rent was due, they would have nothing to [Page 119] give to their landlord. They would not have saved any money for the rent.

4784. But is it not the case that fishermen nowadays save a good deal of money?-Some do, and some do not.

4785. Have not a good many of your friends large deposits in the bank?-No; that is not the case with many.

4786. Are you sure of that?-I would not be positive; but so far as I know, it is not the case.

4787. I suppose a man does not speak very much about his bank account down about Dunrossness, when he has one?-No; but I don't think it is very common for them there to have one.

4788. Do you know anything about the price of meal at the shop where you deal?-I have an idea of it, but only at settling time.

4789. At which shop do you deal?-At Grutness store.

4790. Do you run up a large account in the course of the year?- Generally I do.

4791. Does your account take off most of the price of your fish?- Yes, the most of it.

4792. You only get a small balance at the end of the year?-Yes, if I have it to get; but if not, Mr. Bruce is kind enough to make me a small advance as I need it.

4793. Of course that is on the footing that you are to fish to him next year?-We understand so.

4794. Do you think you would get your meal cheaper at another store than at Grutness, if you had liberty to deal at another store?- I think so, according to what other people say.

4795. Have you inquired the price of meal at Messrs. Hay's shop there?-I have not inquired about it myself.

4796. What do you pay for your meal at Grutness store?-It varies according to the quality and the current price of meal.

4797. Do you pay the same price for it all the year round?-Yes.

4798. Is that generally the price which prevails at the end of the year at settling time, or is it an average of the prices that have prevailed during the whole year?-When it all comes to be summed up, it is generally a little in advance, on the whole, of what we could buy meal for at another shop,-for instance, at Hay and Co.'s.

4799. Is the quality of it as good as you could get at Hay & Co.'s?-The quality is good.

4800. Is there anything else you want to add to the statements of the other witnesses?-No.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, THOMAS AITKEN, examined.

4801. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, in Dunrossness?-Yes.

4802. Are you a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce?-I am only tenant of a room, not of any land. I hold a house there.

4803. Are you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes; I signed an agreement to fish for him when he took the fishing in his own hand at Grutness, eleven or twelve years ago.

4804. Were you a landholder at that time?-No; but I was living in my father's house, and I was bound to fish for Mr. Bruce like the rest.

4805. What was the document you were asked to sign?-The general tenor of his statement was, that he was to give the current price, and I was bound to fish for him while I was living on his estate.

4806. Have you any objection to adhere to that bargain?-I am of the opinion that, if I had had my freedom, I might have made a little more from my fish than I have done.

4807. But would you not have your freedom simply by removing to another place?-Not in Dunrossness.

4808. You mean not on his land?-No, nor on Mr. Grierson's land. I would be bound to fish for Grierson under the same rules if I were to remove to his property.

4809. Do you live with your father still?-No; my father is an old man, and he has ceased to hold land.

4810. Do you consider yourself still bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, even although your father does not hold any land from him?-Yes; I consider I am bound while I am living on his estate.

4811. Have you any copy of the agreement which you signed?- No.

4812. Where did you sign it?-In the shop at Grutness.

4813. Who asked you to sign it?-Mr. Bruce's factor, or his farmer who was in Sumburgh at that time who was sent round among the tenants with a letter from old Mr. Bruce, intimating to them that his son was to take the district into his own hands, that they were to fish for him, and that any one refusing to fish was to leave.

4814. That is the letter which Laurence Smith has spoken of?- Yes.

4815. But did you sign anything?-Yes, I signed a paper, stating that I would rather stay and fish for him than that I would flit.

4816. Was that after the letter had been sent round among the tenants?-Yes.

4817. How long after?-A few days perhaps,-not more.

4818. Were you asked to go to the shop and sign it?-Yes.

4819. Were any others asked to sign it?-I believe there were.

4820. Was it the factor who asked you to sign it?-Yes. Gilbert Irvine was the factor; he asked me to sign it, and I signed to him. The paper was there, ready for us to sign.

4821. Was it read over to you?-Yes.

4822. What was the substance of it?-The substance of it was just what I have stated-that if we would fish to Mr. Bruce on these terms, we could stay on the land; and if not, then we would have to go.

4823. Were there many people who signed it at the same time with you?-No.

4824. Was there anybody else who signed it at the same time?-I could not exactly say. I don't think there was anybody in the house when I signed it, but there were a great many names to it before I went in.

4825. Was it signed by landholders only, or by those who had merely a room?-There were very few at that time who merely held a room. There are not many yet who do so; but the document was signed generally by the fishermen who fished there.

4826. Was the thing you signed an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce so long as you occupied a room or a house on his ground?-Yes; I so understood it.

4827. But if you ceased to occupy that house or room you would be free?-Yes; and we could go to another place.

4828. You settle every year in the spring?-Yes.

4829. Do you generally have a balance in your favour?-Not very often. I have no land, and therefore I have to rely upon my own fishing, or what work I can do for him when I am called upon to work.

4830. Are you bound to work for Mr. Bruce as well as to fish for him?-I am not bound to work for him; but if I am in debt to him, of course he will call me out to work.

4831. But he will pay you for it?-Yes; but I am not quite satisfied with that pay. It is only a penny for one hour's work.

4832. Does that go into your account?-Yes.

4833. Have you got any pass-book at the shop?-No; I have no pass-book there. I see the articles which I receive from him entered into his book, and I told the price of most of the things when they supplied to me; but the principal thing which I get from the store is meal, and I never know the price of it until the day when I come to settle, or until I hear it from any person who has settled before me for the same year.

[Page 120]

4834. Do you know what price you paid for it at last settlement?- I paid the same price for it as the other witnesses you have examined-22s. for Scotch oatmeal, and 20s. for barley-meal.

4835. Do you think you could have got your meal cheaper than that elsewhere?-Yes, I am under that impression.

4836. Have you asked the price of it elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Hay's factor at Dunrossness had meal which was cheaper at that time.,

4837. That was in the spring of last year?-Yes.

4838. How much cheaper was it?-I cannot remember exactly; but if I had had money, I could have purchased it cheaper at many places besides that.

4839. Did you not get advances of money in the course of the year from Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

4840. Could you not have got as much as you asked?-I did not want to ask more than I thought I could stand to. I did not want to get far in debt to him.

4841. Did you get a balance at last settlement paid to you in money?-Yes; if I had a balance at the end of the year, it was paid to me in money.

4842. But did you get a balance last year?-I was about clear then.

4843. You were not much more than clear?-No.

4844. Do you remember how much you got at that time?-I asked for £1 of advance from him at the settlement, and he gave it to me.

4845. Do you mean £1 more than the balance due to you?-Yes.

4846. Were you in debt at the previous settlement in 1870?-Yes.

4847. Were you also in debt in 1869?-Yes.

4848. Was the balance also on the wrong side for you in 1868?-I don't think it.

4849. Do you think you had something to get in 1868?-If I remember right I had.

4850. Do you remember how you stood in 1867?-I think that I was clear.

4851. But you had not much to get?-No.

4852. You are a married man and have a family?-Yes.

4853. Is there anything you wish to add to what you have heard the previous witnesses say?-Nothing further than just that I am not satisfied with my wages.

4854. Have you not something to say yourself in fixing your charges?-No.

4855. How is that? You need not work unless you know what wages you are to get beforehand?-No; but there is no general work there to work at. Mr. Bruce is the only man who has work to do and when a man is in necessity he must work.

4856. Can you not get land of your own?-No; I am not able to hold any land, because my family are sickly, and are not able to work upon it.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS MAINLAND, examined.

4857. You are a fisherman at Northtown of Exnaboe, on the land of Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.

4858. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?- Yes.

4859. Has it generally been a correct description of your way of dealing with the shop at Sumburgh, and with Mr. Bruce for your fish?-So far as regards the store, I have never been obliged to take anything from it. I always went and bought my goods for ready money from any place where I could get them cheapest.

4860. Why was that?-Because as a general rule, I heard the people complaining that they were obliged to take their goods from the store, and that they were dearer there than they could be got elsewhere.

4861. Had you any difficulty in getting the balance due to you at the settlement at the end of the year in cash?-No.

4862. You always got money?-Yes.

4863. Was money also advanced to you in the course of the year before settlement, if you wanted it?-Yes, if I asked for it.

4864. What amount might you get advanced before settlement?- If I had asked it, I would have got perhaps £10 or £20. Of course I had a little money in Mr. Bruce's hands, so that I was not requiring to draw any money from him that was not due to me.

4865. Is there anything you wish to add to the evidence which has been given already?-There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the present law on the subject of leases. Mr. Bruce has the power of turning out men who have made a great many improvements on his estate, and perhaps, they may be turned out without receiving any compensation whatever. I am one of those who have done it great deal for it. I have expended upwards of £100 worth of labour and material on his ground.

4866. Before laying out that expense could you not have made an arrangement with the landlord that he should repay you for it if you were turned off?-So far as I am aware, he has never been prepared to give any rules or regulations to that effect.

4867. Has he not offered you a lease?-He has offered us a lease; but I don't think there is any party in Shetland who would accept of it.

4868. Have you ever applied for a different lease?-I have never applied for a lease at all. There was no use doing so, so far as I knew. But I think that when a party lays out money in improvements on master's estate he ought to be paid for it.

4869. But a man who lays out money upon another man's, land knows quite well before he begins that he will not be paid for it, and he takes the risk of the landlord being kind enough and able to repay him part of these expenses. It may very well be that the landlord is a poor enough man as well as the tenant, and that he cannot afford to put improvements upon his land; and yet the tenant goes and spends a lot of money on it, expecting the landlord to repay him for improvements which the landlord himself would not have made, if he had had the land in his own hands?-That may be quite true; but so far as I have understood, Mr. Bruce has always taken a great interest in having improvements made upon his land.

4870. That, however, is hardly a question into which I can enter here unless you think it has some bearing upon the system of payments at the shop, or the system of payments for the fish?-It has no bearing upon these questions at all, so far as I am aware, except perhaps in this way, that for four months in the winter season the fishermen are lying at home to a great extent, idle. The fishing commences about 1st May, and it finishes in the end of August. Then they have to gather in their summer crops; and during the winter season, and the early part of the spring, they have very little to do; while a person of an active turn of mind does not like to remain idle for such a length of time. They want to be doing something, and they will engage to any one who has work to give them.

4871. Have you anything more to say about that?-I have nothing more to say except this, that when person is a tenant at will, and liable to be removed after having made improvements on the estate of any proprietor, he ought to receive compensation for these improvements.

4872. Would it be possible for fishermen in Shetland to carry on the business of fishermen alone without being tenants?-Not so far as my judgment goes.

4873. Why?-Because the small earnings from the fishing could not support him, neither could the land itself support him in the way it is laid down present.

4874. And I suppose, if the holdings of land were larger, a man would have no time to attend to the fishing?-No, he would not. If the holdings were larger, of course the men would have to occupy the whole of their time with the ground.

4875. Don't you think that, with an improved system of agriculture, you would find enough occupation on [Page 121] holdings of the present size for the whole year?-Not in my opinion; they are too small for that.

4876. Not even by following out the rules and regulations which Mr. Bruce has offered you?-No.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ADAM LESLIE, jun., examined.

4877. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness?-I am.

4878. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?- Yes.

4879. Does it fairly describe the system under which you hold your land and fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and the way in which you deal at his shop?-Yes, I think it does.

4880. Is there any addition you wish to make to the evidence which has been given, or any correction upon it?-No.

4881. Have you a pass-book at the shop?-No.

4882. Do you deal at the shop at Grutness for the goods you want for your family?-In part I do.

4883. Do you find that, at the end of the year, you have generally a balance in your favour, or is it against you?-I cannot say that it is much against me.

4884. Do you get payment of that balance in money?-Yes.

4885. Do you also get advances in money, in the course of the year before settlement, if you want them?-Yes; whenever I ask for them. Our place is far away from the bank, and sometimes Mr. Bruce may have run out of money by so many people having gone and asked it from him; but if I go to him and ask him for money, and he does not have it, he tells me when to come back and get it.

4886. In that case, when you get the money, do you spend it generally at Mr. Bruce's shop, or do you go and deal at some other store with it?-I generally go to some other store.

4887. Do you find that you get your goods cheaper at another store than at his?-I am under that impression, but I never compared his goods with those of other merchants.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON, examined

4888. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, Dunrossness, and a tenant on Mr Bruce's land?-I am.

4889. You have been there for thirteen years?-Yes.

4890. Do you remember a time when the fishermen got their freedom there?-That was before I came to the place.

4891. Were they understood formerly to be bound?-Yes, in old times they were bound; but, just about time when I came there, old Mr. Bruce gave them their liberty, and they were all free.

4892. Was there an understanding previously, that they were bound to fish only to him, or to his tacksmen?-Yes: but, two or three years before I came they got their liberty.

4893. Was there any payment made for that?-Each landholder had to pay 15s. a year for his freedom.

4894. Was that just an addition to their rent?-Yes.

4895. The rents were raised, and the fishermen had liberty to do as they liked about their fish?-Yes.

4896. From whom did you learn that?-It was given out by Mr. Bruce, and by all the tenants.

4897. But you said you were not there at the time?-I was not.

4898. Then you learned that when you came from common report?-Yes, just from common report.

4899. Was your father a landholder there?-No. I removed from Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground to that place.

4900. Have you held your ground at the same rent for the thirteen years you have been there?-No. The rent has been raised a good deal since I came, in addition to the 15s.

4901. During all your time have you been free to deliver your fish to any person you chose?-I was free to do so until twelve years back, when I became bound to deliver my fish to Mr. John Bruce.

4902. That was by the letter which has been spoken of already?- Yes.

4903. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, and the other men who have been examined?-Yes.

4904. Was it generally correct as to the way in which you deal about your fish?-So far as I could judge, I have not heard a wrong statement made to-day; and there has been nothing left for me to add to it.

4905. You agree with them that you can get money when you ask for it?-Yes.

4906. Is the bulk of the price of your fish paid to you in money or in goods?-I take goods according as I require them. I have meal and other things; and whatever is over, after paying my account at the shop and my rent, is cheerfully paid to me, the same as I would pay it to my son. There is not a freer man at paying money to his tenants than Mr. Bruce is. I have been £6 in debt, and asked him for advances, and he has given them to me.

4907. Was that after settlement?-Yes.

4908. And, of course, that was given to you on the understanding that you were to be fishing for him next year?-Yes; I was fishing for him by sea, and working for him by land.

4909. If you had not been fishing for him, would you have got an advance of that sort?-But I was fishing for him, so that I cannot tell that.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES FLAWES, examined.

4910. You are a fisherman, and tenant under Mr. Grierson at Rennesta, near Quendale?-I am.

4911. Are you under any obligation to deliver your fish to Mr Grierson?-Yes.

4912. Is he a fish-merchant and fish-curer?-He is a fish-merchant, and he has men under him for curing his fish.

4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal lease of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he read out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at Quendale.

4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That statement which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he was to become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver their fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of their fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their land under him. If they did not do that, they knew the consequences: they would be turned out.

4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself.

4916. Were you present?-Yes.

4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was stated also at that time.

4918. Was it stated how that current price was to be ascertained?-It was to be the currency of the country, particularly the prices paid by three or four merchants who dealt in the same kind of fish that he received from his tenants.

4919. Did Mr. Grierson name the four merchants whose prices were to rule?-The four merchants who generally agree together are Mr. John Robertson, [Page 122] Messrs. Hay, Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and Mr. Grierson.

4920. How do you know that these merchants agree together as to the prices?-Because the tenants of the whole of them generally get the same price for their fish.

4921. Do not all the tenants in Shetland generally get the same price for their fish each season?-No; there is a difference.

4922. Do you know that the tenants of these four parties always get one price?-Yes; generally it is the same price that is given to them all.

4923. Do you know that the tenants on other estates get a different price?-Yes, I know that.

4924. Can you mention any case in which that has happened?- Yes. There are a few merchants in Sandwick parish who get fish from a few boats there-James Smith, James Mouat, and Thomas Tulloch-and they always give a little higher.

4925. Do these merchants keep shops as well?-Yes, they have shops too.

4926. Do the men who fish for them deal at their shops?-I understand they do.

4927. Can you tell me how much Tulloch and Smith have paid for their fish?-In some years they give 6d. per cwt. more than Mr. Grierson and the other merchants I have mentioned, and for some kinds of fish 9d. more.

4928. What price did you receive for your fish at last settlement?-Last year, I think, we got 7s. for ling, or 7s. 3d., I could not exactly say which; 5s. 6d. for cod, and 3s. 6d. for saith.

4929. Do you know how much the fishermen got from Tulloch and Smith?-I could not exactly say, but they got a little more.

4930. You knew that at the time?-Yes, I knew it at the time from the fishermen who were giving their fish to them.

4931. Do you know how much more they got?-I think it was 9d. more on some fish, and 6d. more on others. It might be a little more; but, I think, I am safe to say that.

4932. Do you know anything about the prices of goods at the stores of Tulloch and Smith?-No. I never bought anything from them.

4933. Young Mr. Grierson, whom you mentioned as having taken the fishing in 1861, is now the proprietor of the estate?-Yes.

4934. Does the obligation which was then imposed upon you extend to the sons of his tenants, as well as to the tenants themselves?-It extends to all.

4935. Do you know of any case in which any man upon the land has delivered his fish to another fishcurer than Mr. Grierson, and has been challenged or turned out for that?-I know one.

4936. Who was that?-Thomas Johnston, Garth, Quendale, son of John Johnston. He was out of a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson at his station, but he got a chance to fish for Messrs. Hay, and because he went and fished for them, he could not come back to his father's house, but had to remain all winter and vore (<i.e.> spring) with the man he fished for. Then he came back next spring and fished for Mr. Grierson again.

4937. Who prevented him from coming back to his father's house, if he had chosen to do so?-He was told by Mr. Grierson, that if he went and fished for another person, he would have to stop away, and that if he came back, it would be his father's warning.

4938. How long ago was that?-I don't recollect exactly; perhaps two or three years ago.

4939. How do you know that that warning would have been given to John Johnston?-Because it was part of the arrangement with Mr. Grierson from the very outset.

4940. But how do you know that Thomas Johnston was told he must leave the land and that his father would be turned out if he came back?-Because he told me so himself, and he evidenced it by staying away.

4941. Was it not more convenient for him to live near the station where he was fishing for Hay & Co., than to remain in his father's house?-He had to leave his own house and go away down to the west voe to fish.

4942. But was it not more convenient for himself to go there?- Yes, it was handier for him to live near the place where he was fishing.

4943. Are you sure that was not the reason why he left his father's house?-But the man he fished for did not live at that station: his house was away upon the west side.

4944. Was he not upon Mr. Grierson's land?-No, not that man.

4945. Do you know the case of any other man being challenged or threatened because he sold his fish to another fish merchant than Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I know of another case-James Shewan on the ground of Brough, belonging to Mr. Grierson's estate.

4946. How long is it since that case happened?-It was last year.

4947. What do you know about it?-Shewan did not have a chance of fishing at home for Mr. Grierson, and he also took a chance at the ness with Messrs. Hay & Co. They fished from the west voe then.

4948. What was the consequence?-The consequence was that Shewan had to pay £1 of liberty money.

4949. When was that?-This year.

4950. Was it before last settlement?-No; it was at this settlement.

4951. Is the settlement over at Quendale for last season?-Almost. There were a few boats not settled with when we came up.

4952. How do you know that Shewan had to pay liberty money this year? Did he tell you that he had had to pay it?-Yes.

4953. Did you see him pay it?-I did not.

4954. Was it added to his account when settling?-I cannot tell you whether it was included in the settlement, or whether he had paid it some months before.

4955. When did he tell you about it?-He told me when he had settled.

4956. How long ago is that?-It is not very long; perhaps it week or two since.

4957. Is James Shewan a tenant of Mr. Grierson's?-Yes.

4958. Was it not it part of his bargain, on taking his land, that he should deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.

4959. And was not that £1 which he paid just a penalty for breach of contract?-Yes; but then he did not have a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson. There were no men on Mr. Grierson's estate who could fill up a boat with him, the men that he had previously been going with having joined another crew; and therefore he had to go to some other place where he could earn something.

4960. Were Mr. Grierson's crews all filled up at that time?-Yes.

4961. Could Shewan not have brought his share of his boat's fish to Mr. Grierson and delivered them to him, although the rest of the men were fishing for Hay and Co.?-He might have done that; but I don't know very well about it.

4962. That would have been very inconvenient I suppose?-Yes, very.

4963. Do you know of any other case of the same kind?- No.

4964. Or of any case of a person being told that he must fish entirely to Mr. Grierson without being threatened?-We knew quite well from the statement which was made to us before, that if any one transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty days warning.

4965. Do you deal at the Quendale store?-Yes.

4966. Who is the storekeeper there?-Ogilvy Jamieson.

4967. Is the shop at a convenient place for your people and for most of the fishermen round about?-Yes, it is very convenient.

4968. Does Jamieson receive your fish as well as attend to the shop?-Yes. There is a factor under [Page 123] him who receives the fish, but Jamieson is over all, both over the shop and the fish.

4969. What is the name of the factor who receives the fish?-It is sometimes one man and sometimes another.

4970. Do you run an account at the shop?-Yes.

4971. Are you expected to deal there, or have you freedom to deal where you like for what you want for your families?-We are quite at liberty to deal anywhere we choose, if we had only the means in our possession to do it.

4972. How is that you have not the means?-Because we have not got the money.

4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does.

4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very often.

4975. Then, how is it that you say you have not the means of dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we don't like to be always running to him for money for the small things we require. It is only in particular cases when we require a pound or so to help us that we ask it from him.

4976. What other shops are there convenient for you?-The only shop that I can make better out of than Mr. Grierson's in our district is Mr. Gavin Henderson's at Scousborough.

4977. Is that near Dunrossness kirk?-It is to the north and west of it.

4978. Do you prefer to go to Henderson's store because the goods are cheaper and better there?-Yes.

4979. Are they both cheaper and better?-We generally think so.

4980. Can you give me any particular case in which you have found them to be so?-I have never made an exact comparison of the things to find out the precise difference; but when we are to buy a suit of clothes for instance, we think we can make as good bargain at Henderson's shop as we can do at any shop in Shetland.

4981. Have you bought a suit of clothes both at that shop and at Mr. Grierson's?-I have never bought a full suit of clothes at Mr. Grierson's, but I have done so at Gavin Henderson's.

4982. What is the price of meal at Quendale store?-I could not tell exactly, because I have not had any there during the last two years, my little farm having supplied me with all I wanted.

4983. What is the price of tea at the two stores?-The prices of tea at both these stores are much the same. There are three different prices of tea at the two stores, but we rather think that Henderson's tea is generally better for the prices charged than Mr. Grierson's is.

4984. Have you tried the moleskins also?-Yes; and if I were buying with ready money out of Grierson's shop, I don't think the difference between them would be worth mentioning.

4985. But is there a difference according as you buy with ready money or pay at the settlement?-Yes. If I buy a pair of trousers for ready money, I get them down 1d. per yard. The cloth is marked 3s. per yard, and I get 1d. off the yard. Then if I buy a shirt of 3 yards, and if I pay ready money for it, I get reduction of 1d. per yard on 9d. or 10d.

4986. Do you get your goods cheaper at Henderson's shop even with that discount?-Yes. If I go to Henderson's shop without the money, he will not take any more for the goods than he would do even if I had the money with me.

4987. Will he give you the goods as cheap as at Grierson's?-Yes; as cheap as if I had bought them at Grierson's with ready money.

4988. Is there any other reason why you would prefer not to deal at Mr. Grierson's shop for your goods?-We would have no great objection to deal at his shop if we were paid a little better for our fish. It is our opinion that we are not paid for our fish altogether as we might be.

4989. But you get the currency of the country?-Yes; and we sign for that.

4990. Do you think you should get more than the currency of the country?-We cannot exactly judge of the state of the market, but from what we hear and from what we see in the papers, we think the merchants take rather too much profit, and that we would be a little better if we received the money for the sale of our fish ourselves.

4991. Do you think you would be better off if you had a price fixed for your fish at so much per cwt. at the beginning of the season?-That would depend upon circumstances.

4992. Taking a number of years together, do you think you could make a better bargain for yourselves in that way?-I think so. The three men I mentioned in Sandwick parish generally give an agreement to state something like what they will give, and they seem to stand by it pretty well whatever the price may be.

4993. Would the fishermen not object to that sort of arrangement?-I don't know. I don't think the fishermen in general would object to any agreement by which they might know what they were working for during the season, although I really cannot say that they could make any more decided efforts for catching fish than they do under present circumstances.

4994. But even although the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, the fishermen would still have an inducement to exert themselves as much as possible in order that they might have a large catch?-They would; but I say that I don't know how they could exert themselves to do more than they do already.

4995. Still, they would have exactly the same reason for exertion?-Yes.

4996. Do you think if the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, and it turned out that the current price of fish was much higher than that fixed with the men at the commencement, they would try to get out of their bargain, and demand the higher price that was current?-There comes the difficulty. We who catch the fish would always like to get as high a price for them as we can; but if we make an agreement, we must stand by it. However, if the merchants could afford to give 6d. or 1s. more according to the state of the markets, and did not give it, we would rather look down upon them for taking such a large price, and not giving us part of the advantage of it.

4997. But you ought to recollect that in another year you might have made a bargain for the same price, and the price received by the fish-curers might be less, so that there would be a loss to them?-Yes; but, I think the men in general would be prepared to run the risk of the rise and fall in the markets in that way, or, if they made a bargain, they would stick to it.

4998. Have you known any case in which men engaged to fish on such terms, and finding the price higher than that which they had bargained for, asked that higher price from the fish-curer?-I cannot say that I have known any case.

4999. You don't know whether that has ever occurred in Shetland?-No, I don't know anything about that.

5000. Do you know anything about the employment of beach boys?-A little. I had a boy employed this year at the beach.

5001. Is there considered to be an obligation upon the Quendale tenants to allow their sons to be employed as beach boys?-Yes, whenever called for.

5002. Is that obligation enforced?-Yes, it is just the same as with all the rest. The landlord says, 'If I call for your son to cure fish for me, and you object to it, then I can lay whatever penalty I choose upon you, and either remove you or impose a fine.'

5003. Do you know of any case where that has occurred?-No; because the tenants know exactly what the consequences would be, and they are frightened to do anything in opposition to their landlord's wishes. We are all poor people together, and not very well able to bear fines or removals.

[Page 124]

5004. What are the wages for a beach boy?-An active beach boy for his first year at Quendale will get 30s. for about five months in the year. That is his whole wage.

5005. Could he get more in any other employment in Shetland?- In some cases Messrs. Hay's factor would give more for beach boys than they would get beside us.

5006. What is the age of a boy who would get that wage?-From twelve to fourteen or sixteen years; and if a boy goes two or three years to the beach, his wages are raised every year.

5007. How are their wages paid?-If they take goods from the shop, these are marked down against them.

5008. Are they marked down in the father's account, or in a separate account in the boy's own name?-In a separate account in the boy's own name.

5009. Has your son been long in that employment?-I have only had one of my sons at it for one year.

5010. Is he to be employed this year again in the same way?-Yes.

5011. Had he a balance in his favour when he was settled with?- He has not been settled with yet. He was employed for the year which has just come to an end; but I don't think he will have very much to get, as he had no clothes to speak of when he began, and he was very glad of the chance of winning a little, so that he might get a suit of clothes.

5012. Has it been a common case within the last two or three years for the fishermen who are employed in the way you have described to have a balance in their favour at settlement, or have they usually had balance against them?-During the last two or three years a good many of Mr. Grierson's fishermen have had a very good balance to come to them to account, but I and some others have been behind and could not get clear.

5013. Are there many of that sort?-There are few.

5014. Is it worse for a man of that kind to leave and get free of his obligation to fish than for a man that has cash to receive to do so?-Under Mr. Grierson's arrangement there is no difference between the two kinds of men as regards getting their liberty to fish to any other man, because none of them have any such liberty.

5015. The obligation to fish depends on the holding of land; it does not depend on the amount of debt due to Mr. Grierson?-No, it does not depend upon that.

5016. Are there many men there who fish for Mr. Grierson and who do not hold land?-Yes, there are a good few.

5017. Are they under any obligation to fish for him?-They are all under one obligation from head to foot.

5018. How does that happen in the case of men who do not hold land?-Because they are all on Mr. Grierson's ground.

5019. Would the party they live with be warned if they were not to fish for him?-That was in his first arrangement.

5020. Is that arrangement still in force?-I never knew of any alteration being made upon it.

5021. Have you been told anything about that obligation since it was read over to you in 1861?-No; there have been no cases in which it has been broken except the two I have mentioned, and we saw what happened.

5022. But you have not been spoken to about it at all?-No.

5023. Or reminded about it?-No, we have never been reminded about it; but we signed then to fish for Mr. Grierson, and we have heard of no other arrangement.

5024. How do you supply yourselves with fishing materials?-We generally take them from Mr. Grierson's shop.

5025. Are you under any sort of obligation to take them from there?-We are just under the same sort of obligation to take them from his shop as we are to take anything, because we generally cannot get them anywhere else. We never ask money to go and get them anywhere else, although it is our opinion that if we could go elsewhere, we would get them a little cheaper-that is, our fishing lines.

5026. Where would you go for them?-We could buy them in some shops in Lerwick a little cheaper.

5027. But you would have a long way to carry them if you were to buy them here?-Yes; but we don't think much of our travel sometimes when we can make good bargain.

5028. Have you anything more to say about the state of matters in your neighbourhood?-I have nothing more to say at present; only, if I am at liberty to do so, I should like to say on Mr. Grierson's behalf that, as a landlord, he has been very favourable to me and to many of the tenants. He has supplied us with goods and helped us, when we were not very well able to help ourselves; and he has continued to do that in my case to the present time. If I am in debt to him, he never charges me for that debt; but I am at liberty to sell any animal off my farm if I choose, without him asking anything about it.

5029. Are you a little behind just now?-I am a good bit behind just now.

5030. But you could still get an advance of money if you needed it?-Yes. The shopkeeper told me when I was settling, that if I wanted from 1s. to £1, I could get it from him any time I asked for it.

5031. Do you get all your things at his shop?-Not altogether. When I have a little money beside me, I can get them from any quarter. The fact is that I sometimes go there with money, and get the things cheaper than if I were getting them on credit. For instance, if I ask for a quarter pound of stick tobacco, I will get it for 1s. if I pay for it with money; while if it is marked down to me, it will be 1s. 1d. Now, we do think that is very unreasonable, as they have a profit both on our fish and on our goods, and we are very much dissatisfied about it.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE GOUDIE, examined.

5032. You are a fisherman and tenant on the estate of Mr. Grierson of Quendale?-Yes; at Garth.

5033. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes?-Yes.

5034. Is it generally a correct statement of the obligation you are under to fish to Mr. Grierson, and of the way in which you settle for your fish?-So far as I know, it is.

5035. Do you get money paid to you when you want it in the course of the season?-Yes.

5036. But is the greater part of the price of your fish got out in goods from Mr. Grierson's shop?-Yes, the greater part.

5037. What balance did you receive at last settlement?-I had no balance to receive. It was against me.

5038. Had most of the men a balance against them at last settlement?-I suppose the greater part of them had.

5039. Have you got a note of your settlement?-No.

5040. Did you get any receipt or pass-book or account?-No.

5041. Is your account read over to you at the settlement?-Yes, if we want to have it read. The shop account, if we want it, will be read over to us.

5042. If it is not read over, how do you know whether it is correctly charged or not?-The men who do not keep a note of their accounts for themselves cannot know whether they are correct or not even by hearing them read over.

5043. Are you generally content to trust to the shopkeeper for the accuracy of your account?-Yes.

5044. Do you know anything about the quality of the meal that is sold there, and the price of it?-Yes.

5045. Have you been getting meal from the shop [Page 125] during the last year or two?-Yes. Mr. Grierson's meal last year was from 2s. to 3s. per boll above what Mr. Gavin Henderson charged for his.

5046. Was the quality of Henderson's meal as good?-Yes; quite as good.

5047. Have you tried them both in your own house?-Yes.

5048. What was the price of the one and of the other?-Mr. Grierson's bear-meal was 14s. per boll-that is Shetland grain; and Gavin Henderson charged 12. for Shetland meal also.

5049. Does Mr Grierson's shopkeeper charge the same price for meal all through the year?-Yes; for the same kind of meal.

5050. All the meal of the same kind in your account is charged at the same rate throughout the year?-Yes.

5051. But at Gavin Henderson's, it is charged to you according to the price at the time you buy it: the price varying at different periods of the same year?-Yes, it varies a little; but Mr. Grierson's meal also varies when the price elsewhere varies.

5052. Then you may have meal charged at different rates in the same account?-Yes.

5053. Is there any other article, the price of which you have compared with what you could get it for elsewhere?-Yes, there is tobacco. If we buy a single ounce we pay 31/2d., and 2 oz. 6d., at Quendale store. In Gavin Henderson's we can get a single ounce for 3d., and 2 oz. are charged 6d. also.

5054. Is there anything else you can speak to?-No, I don't think there is anything else.

5055. Is there anything else you wish to say in addition to what James Flawes has said?-No.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, CHARLES EUNSON, examined.

5056. You are a fisherman, and a tenant of Mr. Grierson's at Waterbru?-I am.

5057. Is that near Quendale?-It is about a mile and a half away.

5058. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes and George Goudie?-Yes.

5059. Is it generally correct with regard to the system of dealing at the shop and for your fish?-I think so.

5060. Is there anything you wish to add to it?-Nothing with respect to that; but I had a little experience once with regard to liberty money. Before the time when Mr. Grierson and Mr. Bruce took the fishings into their own hands-for they were both in company when they started with that-we had enjoyed our liberty all along, and had never been obliged to fish for our proprietors; but at that time we were taken in hand along with the rest of Mr. Grierson's tenants, and we had to fish for them. That lasted only for three years, and then the contract was broken, and each started on his own account.

5061. Was that before or after the statement which was made by Mr. Grierson at Quendale?-It was three years after it. When the contract was broken, Mr. Grierson had no place handy for us to land our fish at and deliver them to him, as we lived farther from Quendale than the rest of his tenants; and therefore at that time again we got our liberty and fished for whom we chose. He exacted nothing for that, and things went on in that way, I think, for three years; but at the end of that time Mr. Grierson took a station at Voe, on the east side of the parish, where he had had no place previously, and he told us that we would be obliged to deliver our fish to him, like the rest of his tenants. During the three years before we were put under that obligation, we had been fishing at the Ness, and had been at considerable trouble and expense in forcing a beach, and making other things right for curing our own fish. We were unwilling to lose the whole of that, and we applied to Mr. Grierson to allow us to continue to fish at the Ness; and he told us that if we paid three guineas of liberty money, he would allow us to fish there. We offered to pay that liberty money for one season, but it was a bad season; there were not many fish, and the price was low; and we went to Mr Grierson and asked him if he would take our fish. He consented to take them in a dry state; and he deducted 6d. per cwt. for the three guineas for every cwt. we delivered to him; so the result was that we had to pay him about £1 and upwards.

5062. In what year was that?-It is four years ago; it must have been in 1867.

5063. Then these fish would be settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes.

5064. Did you get any account of that year's settlement?-No; I would have got it if I had asked for it, but I never asked it.

5065. Who did you settle with that year?-With Mr. Grierson himself.

5066. You did not settle with Mr. Jamieson?-No; he had not come to the place at that time. There was another man there in the place which Mr. Jamieson now has, but we did not settle with him.

5067. Do you know anything about the price or quality of the meal at Quendale store as compared with other places?-It is a great deal better now than it used to be eleven or twelve years ago; it was not very satisfactory then, but it is not so bad now. The difference between the meal there and at other places is still something, but not so much so as it was.

5068. Do you get meal there?-Yes, frequently; and frequently at other places.

5069. I suppose you get it there, or at other places, according to the state of your account at the time?-Yes; or rather according to my interest. Mr. Grierson has never refused to give me anything reasonable that I asked him. He has been very generous in that way all along.

5070. Have you any boys on the beach?-I have one boy who has been engaged this year for the first time for Mr. Grierson.

5071. Had you any desire to have him engaged elsewhere?-I would not have minded much if he had never gone to the beach at all; it is not a very good berth for a boy. In the previous year they asked me if I would allow him to go to the beach, and I said I would rather not, as I required his services myself; but this season they asked me for him again. Perhaps they would not have taken him against my will, but Mr Grierson might have thought I was rather obstinate if I refused again, and so I let him go. I did not like to refuse when Mr. Grierson asked me.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined.

5072. You are a fisherman, and a tenant on Mr. Grierson's land at Hillwill?-I am only a fisherman, but I pay a little rent along with my father.

5073. Are you any relation of the witness Laurence Leslie who was previously examined?-No.

5074. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses from Quendale?-Yes.

5075. Is it generally correct?-I think it is.

5076. Is there anything you could add to it?-I don't think so.

5077. Although you are not a tenant, do you consider yourself bound to fish to Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I am bound to do so.

5078. You could be free from that obligation, however, by leaving the ground?-Yes.

5079. Do you run an account in your own name at Mr. Grierson's shop?-No. I get a little from the shop sometimes, but I buy what I want where I think most convenient.

5080. Do you get payment in money from Mr. Grierson?-Yes.

5081. Can you get all your payment in money from him if you like?-Yes.

[Page 126]

5082. Do you get that money in the course of the year, or at the end of the season?-Just when we settle once a year.

5083. You don't get advances in the course of the year?-No; I don't seek any before the end of the year.

5084. Then you have always cash in hand?-Yes.

5085. You are a little ahead of the world?-Yes.

5086. Have you any beach boys in your family?-No; but I was a beach boy myself about fifteen years ago.

5087. That was before there was any obligation on the Quendale people to fish for their landlord?-Yes.

5088. At that time how was the arrangement made with beach boys?-I wrought for five months, and I got 10s.

5089. Was that paid to you in goods or in money at the settlement?-I got it in money at the settlement.

5090. Was that the usual way of settling at that time?-Yes.

5091. Is it the usual way still that a beach boy gets payment of his wages in money?-I believe so.

5092. Does he not run an account at the store?-I don't know anything about that myself.

5093. Have you anything to add to what the other men have said?-My wife sent up a shawl to a sister of mine in Lerwick to have it sold, and she sold it to Laurenson & Co. I came up to Lerwick some time afterwards, in the course of the spring, to take down a boat, and I went to the shop to get payment of the shawl. I was not requiring cottons or drapery goods, but I was requiring a pair of trousers; and when I went to the shop, I was shown a piece of tweed which I fixed upon to take, but the merchant refused to give me the cloth for the shawl, because it was a money article, and I had to take soft goods and other things which were of no use to me.

5094. Would he not have given you the cloth in exchange for the shawl at a somewhat higher rate than he would have given it to you for cash?-He would not give it to me at all, and I had to take the cottons and stuff that were of very little use to me.

5095. Did you take these home?-No.

5096. Have you had any other dealings of that sort?-No.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN BURGESS, examined.

5097. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Mr. Grierson at Hillwill?-Yes.

5098. Have you heard the evidence that has been given by James Flawes and the other witnesses from Quendale, with regard to Mr. Grierson's fishing business, and their dealings at his shop?-Yes. 5099. Is that evidence correct, so far as you know?-Yes,

5100. Have you anything to add to it?-Nothing.

5101. Do you know anything about the engagement of beach boys?-Yes.

5102. Are there some of them in your family?-Yes; I have had a son employed as a beach boy for two years. His wages for the first year were 30s., and for the second year, 35s.

5103. Was that wage fixed at the commencement of the year or at settlement time?-It was not fixed until settlement. I did not know what he was working for until then.

5104. Was he running an account at the time in the shop books?- A small one. It was very little he was requiring, and he got the balance in money.

5105. Was there any obligation on him to go as beach boy to Mr. Grierson?-Yes.

5106. Could you not have engaged him anywhere else?-No; I wanted to keep him at home beside myself, because I was requiring him, but Mr Jamieson told me he was requiring him at the beach, and I must just let him go; and therefore I preferred to put up with a little hardship to myself and my family, and allowed him to go to the beach.

5107. When did Mr. Jamieson tell you that?-When he came and asked me to allow my boy to go.

5108. Was that before the commencement of the first year which he served?-Yes.

5109. Did you make any objection when Mr. Jamieson asked you for him?-Yes, I objected a little. I said I would be glad to keep him at home; but Mr. Jamieson said I would better just let him go, and I did so, without any more hesitation.

5110. Do you know anything about the difference in the price of meal at Mr. Grierson's store, and at others?-No; I have had very little to do with the store.

5111. Do you not deal there?-I deal for a few small things, but very little.

5112. Do you buy most of your provisions and other things from other stores?-Yes, for the most part.

5113. Where do you get them?-From Mr. Henderson's.

5114. Are you quite at liberty to go there for them-Yes.

5115. Can you get advances of money from Mr. Grierson in the course of the year for the purpose of buying goods at Henderson's and other stores?-Yes. If I was asking for advances, I would get them; but I don't ask for any until settling time, and then I get the balance, whatever it is, freely.

5116. Have you an account against you at that time?-Yes.

5117. Have you any pass-book?-No, I don't keep any pass-book.

5118. Is your account read over to you at settlement time?-Yes.

5119. And you see that it is correct?-Yes; so far as my judgment leads me.

5120. But you say you don't get many goods at the store: is that because you can get them cheaper elsewhere?-Perhaps that is sometimes the reason, and sometimes I don't require the things which are there. I always take my fishing materials, lines and hooks, and other things of that kind, from the store.

5121. Are these things reasonably priced?-We suppose they are much the same as in other places in the neighbourhood.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY LESLIE, examined.

5122. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Grierson at Gord?-I am.

5123. You have heard the evidence of Flawes and the others?- Yes.

5124. Do you agree with it, so far as you know?-Yes.

5125. You know the facts which have been stated by them to be true?-Yes.

5126. Have you been a long time a tenant on that estate?-Yes; for fifty years at any rate.

5127. At the commencement of that period, were you free to fish to any one you liked?-No; there has always been a bond on that estate to fish to Mr. Grierson, or to any one to whom the fish were let. That has been the case all my time, and I have been more than sixty years there.

5128. Have you fished to anybody else during any part of that time?-No; it was always to him. There were three years when Mr. Bruce and Mr Grierson were in company together.

5129. But before that you were not free?-No; I never knew a time when we were free all the time I have been there.

5130. Who did you fish to before that?-To Mr. Grierson and to his father. I fished to the present Mr. Grierson's grandfather, and I was at the beach to him.

5131. Was he a fish-curer and fish-merchant also?-Yes.

[Page 127]

5132. Was that property ever set in tack to a fish-merchant?-Yes; but that was before my day.

5133. Has the obligation to fish always been a part of the condition on which you held your land?-Yes.

5134. Were you present at the time when young Mr. Grierson intimated to the tenants that he was taking the fishing into his own hands?-Yes; I and every man and boy on the estate were all assembled in the same room, and we all heard the same agreement read

5135. Was not that the beginning of the present state of things under which you are now bound to fish?-Yes.

5136. Then you were free before that?-No, we were not free; but we wrought upon a different scale.

5137. Were you bound at that time to fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.

5138. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement which the other men have made about the present state of things?-I have nothing to add to what the other Quendale men have stated.

5139. Have you been getting meal from Mr. Grierson's store?- No; I have got none there for the last two years. I required none during that time.

5140. Have you had plenty to supply you from your own ground?-Yes; or I had bought it at a roup when other people were going out.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, PETER MOUAT SANDISON, examined.

5141. You are inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North Yell?-I am.

5142. You were formerly engaged in the fish-curing trade?-I was, for a considerable time.

5143. Have you heard the evidence of any of the witnesses who have been examined here to-day?-I have.

5144. Was the mode of paying for fish, and the way in which the accounts of the fishermen were settled at the end of the year, much the same in Yell when you were engaged in the business as you have heard described?-Yes, the settlement was much the same.

5145. Was it made about the same season of the year?-It was generally made about 20th November on towards the end of the year.

5146. Does the fisherman who is employed there by a merchant usually open an account in that merchant's books for provisions and soft goods and other things which he wants for his family?- Yes, he does, almost invariably.

5147. In your experience, is that account pretty nearly even on the two sides, or is there a balance due on the one side or on the other at the end of the year?-That, of course, depends a great deal upon the party who is running the account. There is a difference in men as well as in merchants and fish-curers. Some have larger families and require a great deal more supplies than others. Some have smaller families, and the produce of their own farms can serve them for a longer period in the year than others. From various causes the amount of their supplies is very different; but for the last three years I should say there have been only about 20 to 25 per cent of them who have not had money to get at settlement.

5148. It has been said that it is an important thing for the success of a merchant to get his fishermen into debt to him, so that he may secure their services for the succeeding year: would you consider that a safe policy to pursue on the part of a merchant?-I was a fish-curer and merchant for twelve years myself, and I am always considered it to be the best policy to have clear men

5149. Did you find that, as a rule, the best men were clear in your books?-Decidedly. I never found that debt afforded me any hold whatever upon a man.

5150. Then you found the case to be rather the reverse of what I have stated?-Yes; and the reason why I think it was the reverse is, that no man was in debt who could help it, and generally a man who was in debt was found to be an extravagant, careless man, or there was something wrong with him. Whenever a man got a certain depth into debt, he did not care how much deeper he went; and if I refused him further supplies at the shop, then he just went to another merchant.

5151. Or he might go south?-Occasionally he did, but not often. These kind of men don't go south.

5152. But if he went to another man, you could charge him for your debt?-Yes; my only recourse was to summon him; but what was the use of doing that. I would only have lost the expense of my summons, because he had nothing that I could take from him; or if he had anything, his landlord generally came in with his right of hypothec.

5153. Could you not arrest the proceeds of his fishing in the hands of the other merchant to whom he had gone?-No; I think that is not legal. I have tried it, but I could not succeed. A considerable number of the men who left me one year went to another fishcurer, who happened to be their own proprietor. He had not been curing fish previously. I summoned several of them; and with one of them especially I had a case in court in Lerwick for a considerable time. It was ultimately decided that the merchant, as proprietor, should pay the expense to which I had been at; but as to the account, I did not get one penny of it. I got my expenses and nothing more. I give it up as hopeless case.

5154. Had these fishermen been obliged to leave your service and go to fish for their proprietor?-Yes; at that time they were obliged to do so.

5155. He had regarded it as part of the obligation under which they held their land that they should fish for him?-He had not been carrying on the fishing previously; and he allowed the men to fish for me, or, least, for the firm which I was conducting; but when he took the fishing into his own hands, he required his men to fish for himself.

5156. I suppose he agreed to pay the expenses of the case you mentioned because he felt it was some hardship to you to deprive you of the services of these men?-It was his lawyer and mine, I think, who agreed together about the expenses.

5157. Was the proprietor to whom you refer Mr. Henderson?-No.

5158. Was it Mr M'Queen?-No.

5159. Was he a proprietor in Yell?-Yes.

5160. How many fishermen did you generally employ?-At one time I employed 90.

5161. Would the whole of these men have accounts in your shop books?-Yes.

5162. Can you give me some idea of what amount of the proceeds of their fishing would be paid for by their account for goods?- The lowest amount that I ever had in an account for goods, when I settled with a man, was 21/2d. for a whole twelvemonth-the man got the rest in cash; and the highest, if I remember right, was somewhere about £10. 10s.

5163. What balance would remain due to that man?-Some years, of course, he would be in debt; but in other years he would have something to get.

5164. Was it a very good year in which the man had taken ten guineas worth from your shop, or was that about the average amount of their shop accounts?-I am talking about the average accounts for the twelve years during which I was carrying on the business. In the last year when I carried on the business on my own account, the most money I paid to any man for fish was £22.

5165. What would be the amount of that man's contra account for goods?-I think about six guineas.

5166. Would that be a fair specimen of the accounts?-No; that was an extra year. There was an extra quantity of fish taken, and an extra price paid for them; and that man's boat, I think, was the highest fished boat an the whole station.

5167. But would that be a fair specimen of the amount of goods which a man took throughout the season?-No.

[Page 128]

5168. Do you think it would be more, or less, an average?-It would be more than the average. I should say that about £3, 10s. would be a pretty fair average in our quarter, taking young men, tenants, and non-tenants all together.

5169. Is it the practice in the trade in Yell to give the fisherman a state of his account at the end of the year?-No; it is not the practice.

5170. Or a pass-book?-We always wanted them to keep a pass-book, but they would very seldom do it. They could not be troubled with it. Sometimes they would take a pass-book and bring it for a few times, and then, perhaps, they would not bring it again for month.

5171. Does that arise from their own carelessness; or is it from a notion that the shopkeeper cannot be troubled entering the goods in a book as they are got, because he is too busy to do so?-I never knew that to be the case; but I have heard many of the men say they had confidence in their merchant, and that they would not be bothered to keep a pass-book.

5172. When that was the case, did you, at the settlement, read over the accounts to the fishermen item by item?-Yes, in most cases; but some men won't be at the bother of even hearing their accounts read over. They just say, 'We know you won't cheat us,' and they hear the sum-total.

5173. Then it is their own fault if they do not know what their account contains?-Of course it is.

5174. Is it the men who make the settlement with you, or their wives?-The men, generally.

5175. Then they don't know what they have got out of the shop, if it is their wives who have been dealing there?-Probably not; but there is a whole day given to the settlement with these men, and they have plenty of time to examine into their accounts if they think there anything wrong.

5176. Did you do anything in hosiery?-I did.

5177. When you bought hosiery goods, did you usually send them to the south?-Yes.

5178. Did you send any to merchants in Lerwick?-I generally sent knitted goods to the south; and the worsted I sent to Lerwick.

5179. You bought worsted yourself?-Yes; yarn made by the country people themselves with their own wool.

5180. What is the usual price for Shetland worsted?-From 2d. to 7d. per cut.

5181. That comes to how much per pound?-We never take it by the pound; we always take it by the cut. 7d. a cut would, I suppose, be about 2s. 6d. per ounce, or 40s. per pound.

5182. Would not that be very fine?-Yes.

5183. Would it be the finest Shetland worsted that is made?-I think it is. I have never bought any finer than that, and I have not been aware of any being bought finer.

5184. Then you sold that to merchants in Lerwick at some per centage of profit to yourself?-Not one cent. I never, in all my experience, got a cent for worsted beyond what I paid for it, and I never asked it.

5185. Do you think the worsted you have mentioned is the finest and dearest worsted that is sold out of the island to any merchant?-I do.

5186. Did you ever know of any worsted being sold out of Yell as high as 80s. or 90s. per pound?-I may be making a mistake the weight. I was guessing 4 cuts to the ounce; but perhaps I may be below the mark. The 7d. worsted I know is very fine; but never weighed it, and I may be making an unintentional mistake in that respect.

5187. The 7d. worsted might be lighter than you suppose, and therefore a pound of it might be more expensive?-Yes.

5188. Is it a common thing to have worsted so fine as that?-No; it is the exception.

5189. The average will be a good deal lower?-I should think 3d. would be about the average.

5190. In dealing with people in Yell, you keep an account with the fisherman?-Yes.

5191. Is there any separate account kept for supplies with the wife and family?-Yes; there are separate accounts kept with them. I don't suppose there are many families in the north in which each member, after arriving at a certain age does not keep a separate account.

5192. Is that in consequence of their being employed in the fish trade, or from their having hosiery of their own making to dispose of?-I don't think it is; but the husband or father is generally at the fishing, and he supplies the heavy goods that are required for the family-meal and such like-so far as he is able. Then the wife has wool, which she either spins into worsted, or perhaps may sell. She comes to the merchant herself with it and makes her own bargain. Perhaps she may be due a little when she comes with this day's supplies for stuff that she has been buying, and anything she is due may be put to her own account; the next day she may have a little over, and that is credited to her account. Then the girls, as soon as they are able to knit, go to the shop on their own account too with their knitting and with their spinning, and the merchant upon his responsibility opens an account with them, if he thinks proper; and they go on with these accounts until perhaps they are married.

5193. Then hosiery is generally paid for in Yell with goods?- There is seldom anything asked for except goods.

5194. The account for goods is added up on the one side, and the account for hosiery on the other, and it is squared up now and then?-The value of the hosiery is generally given in goods at the time when the hosiery is sold.

5195. In Yell the hosiery is always sold; it is not made to order?- No; there is no making to order in Yell.

5196. Is there a separate book kept for those dealings with the females from that in which you enter your dealings with the fishermen?-I think in most cases there is a separate book. At any rate I kept a separate book, but I cannot speak for others.

5197. It has been said that that book is called the women's book: is that so?-That was the name I gave to it.

5198. But you don't know whether other merchants give it that name?-No; but I gave it that name because I had no other entries in it except the accounts had against women.

5199. I understand it was only the home-fishing that you engaged?-Yes.

5200. You had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing?-No.

5201. Do you think it would be any advantage for the merchants or for the fishermen if the price to be given for the fish were fixed at the commencement of the fishing season?-I think that would be an advantage to the merchants, but not for the fishermen.

5202. How would the merchants benefit by that?-Because they would then have no bargain to make with the fishermen.

5203. They would have to make a bargain at the commencement of the year?-Yes; but suppose the bargain were to be, that the fish were to be paid for at 8s. per cwt.; in that case the fishermen would require to own his own boat and his own lines, and furnish them himself, and the fish-curer or merchant would have no risk and no loss, but would just pay exactly for what he got. But in the case as it at present stands, the merchant has to furnish the boat and lines, and salt, and everything connected with the fishing, and he has the chance in North Yell, as is very often the case, of losing £5 or £10 or £15 worth of lines in one day in the deep water. The lines are often left there, and the men cannot get them.

5204. In what why does the merchant furnish the boat to the men?-He buys the boat, and hires it, as well as the lines, to six men.

5205. What is the amount of the hire?-£6 per season for boat and lines.

5206. And that sum is deducted from the credit side of the fisherman's account?-Yes. The six men come forward to me as a fish-curer, and they wish me to [Page 129] employ them for the fishing. I do so, and I give them a boat which, if it is a new boat ready for sea, will cost £20. I also give them new lines, which, along with the boat, will cost altogether from £35 to £40. They agree to pay me £6 of hire for that for the time they use it, and to deliver the fish caught by them with these lines and in that boat to me. No price is fixed for the fish, but it is the general understanding that they are to be paid at the highest currency of the country. Well, they go to the fishing, and perhaps the very first day, as I have known to be the case, they may have lost £15 worth of lines; and as soon as they come ashore, they come to me, and I have to give them other £15 worth.

5207. Do they not pay for the lines they have lost in that case?- Not one penny; I take the risk. The sum which I charge covers all risk, and that is all I get.

5208. Then the fishermen have not much inducement to be careful of the lines or of the boat?-Oh yes; because if they lose lines, they lose fish; and if they lose the boat, they stand a chance of losing their own lives. I have not been a fisherman myself, but I should fancy that no fisherman would willingly lose lines if he could help it.

5209. Is it not the case that fishermen sometimes buy the boat from the curer, and pay for it by instalments running over a certain number of years?-Not in Yell.

5210. You have had no experience of that system of dealing?-I cannot say that I have.

5211. Do you think it is of great importance to a fish-curer here to have fishermen bound to fish for him? Does it tend greatly to ensure his success in the fishing trade?-I don't know very well how to answer that question. I had fishermen bound to me during the period of my lease-about sixty of them I suppose.

5212. Was that a lease which you held of an estate in Yell?-Yes; Major Cameron's.

5213. Did you lease the whole of Major Cameron's property in North and Mid Yell?-Yes.

5214. Were these men all bound to fish for you?-They were leased over to my brother, and I wrought out the business for him, but the men were never compelled in any way. About one-third of them were south-going men, and I should think about one-sixth of them fished to others.

5915. You did not enforce the obligation which you understood them to be under?-No; I never enforced it in any case but one.

5216. Had you always enough men to man your boats with?-We had men belonging to other proprietors, and other proprietors had men belonging to us, and none of us ever enforced that obligation except in one case, and that was merely in order that we might put out a boat to sea. There were five men engaged for the boat, and we could not get another free man, so we had to take one.

5217. Was that long since?-Yes; it was in 1855. But I know of men who have been offered this year and last year to get their money every Saturday night, or every day when they landed fish, and they would not accept it. These were men who were thoroughly clear.

5218. Was it wages they were offered, or a price for the fish they delivered?-A price for the fish they delivered. Suppose they delivered 20 cwt. of fish to me, I would pay them for these fish.

5219. How was the price to be fixed in that case?-It would be fixed at once.

5220. Would it be fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes.

5221. Is it long since you proposed that arrangement to any man?-It was at the settlement of 1870.

5222. Did you offer to pay certain men in that way at that time?-I did not do it, because I was not in the fishing at that time, but I was present when it was offered. It was the parties for whom I was curing fish at that time who offered the money.

5223. Was that Spence & Co.?-Yes.

5224. The offer was made to men in Yell?-Yes.

5225. And the men declined that offer?-Yes; they declined taking it. They said if they had as much money as would carry them through the year, they would rather not take any more, but that they could trust to the merchants.

5226. Was that offer made to many men?-To all their men in Yell. There were 30 boats, with six men in each boat, and that offer was made to the whole of them at Cullivoe. The same offer was repeated this year, and they still would not accept of it. They accept of not take their cash until the end of the year.

5227. Was that because they wanted to have something at the end of the year with which to pay their rent?-I suppose that would be one of their reasons; but they were afraid that if they got their cash every Saturday, or every fortnight, or every month, they would spend it carelessly and thoughtlessly, whereas they did not have the money, they could not spend it.

5228. Are there any leases in Yell now?-Scarcely any.

5229. Have there been leases introduced lately?-No; but there have been some offered-on Major Cameron's estate, and on Mr. Irvine's.

5230. Do these leases contain any conditions as to fishing?-No.

5231. Were the conditions such as would interfere with fishing, or do you know anything about that?-Mr. Irvine's leases were not such as to interfere with the fishing in any way, and I think there were three persons who accepted them. With regard to the other leases, I do not say they were such as would interfere with the fishings. There was a certain amount of work required to be done on the farms during the year, but I think all that was required could have been done when there was no fishing being prosecuted. At that season, what I would call the fishing was not going on.

5232. But the tenants have not accepted that offer?-There are two on Major Cameron's property who are under lease, I believe, or who understand they are under leases. I am not aware if the lease has ever been signed; I think not.

5233. The poor-rates in your parish, I understand are not so high as in some parts of Shetland?-I suppose not. They are 3s. for 1872-1s. 6d. on the proprietor and 1s. 6d. on the tenant.

5234. Can you say, from your experience as an inspector of poor, that pauperism is promoted in any degree by the system which prevails of settling only once a year?-No; I should not say it was increased in any way by that.

5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to be a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There are a certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That class are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only allowed advances in such small proportions as enable them to get through the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. If these same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it would not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.

5236. That is to say, he will only allow them a certain amount of supplies from the shop?-Yes; so much a week or a fortnight.

5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I should think that cash would be given to a free man.

5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which the merchant cannot supply.

5239. If a man is bound to fish to a proprietor or tacksman in Yell, is that man bound to deal at the shop of his employer?-By no means.

5240. By a free man, do you mean one who is not in debt?-Yes. I don't mean to say that cash would be absolutely refused even to a man who was in debt, but it would not be given to him unless it was for a necessary purpose.

5241. Can you explain how beach boys are generally employed in Yell?-Yes, I ought to have a pretty good idea of it.

[Page 130]

5242. Is an account opened at the shop at the same time that the engagement is made in the beach boy's name, from which he can get supplies if he wishes them?-Yes, sometimes.

5243. So that when he becomes a beach boy, he is virtually independent of his father?-Not always. The fish-curer would prefer not to open an account with him until the end of the season, because generally, when a beach boy gets an account opened, he will overrun it if he possibly can. Therefore we prefer not to open an account with the boys themselves, but to deal with their fathers, which we very often do. In the case, however, of an orphan boy, or a boy who has got extravagant or helpless parents, we open an account with himself.

5244. Is there any difficulty in procuring the services of beach boys?-I never knew of any difficulty. I have cured fish since 1859, and I never had power over one, and I never wanted to have it.

5245. You had not power over them even where you had the fishermen bound to you?-No; they have not been bound for the last seven years while I have been curing.

5246. Is it seven years since those fishermen on Major Cameron's estate were bound?-Yes.

5247. At that time did the obligation apply to their families?-No.

5248. Then the boys were not obliged to be engaged to you as beach boys?-No; we took any boy who was most convenient for ourselves, without taking into consideration whose tenant his father was.

5249. It has been said that there is an inclination on the part of the fish merchant to get the beach boys into his debt, so as to secure their services in the following year: is there any foundation for that statement?-I have heard it said, but I never could believe it was the case.

5250. Are the boys always quite ready to engage for that work?- They are always very anxious to engage for it, because always before they enter on hard labour they are able to take a turn on the beach, and they get something for that.

5251. But what they get for it is generally settled for in goods at the end of the year?-No, not generally. If a boy runs an account himself, it is settled in goods; but if it is an account with his father, it is settled in cash.

5252. May the proportion of the boys who have an account of their own be about one-half or about one-third of them?-I should say that for the last three years three-fourths of them have got an account of their own; but then they were not boys. Although they get the name of boys, they were old men and women.

5253. You mean that women are employed in that part of the work?-Yes.

5254. What are their wages?-In 1870 the parties under my control had from £4, 10s. down to 35s. according to age and ability; and in 1871 the people employed were all boys except one man: the boys had from 25s. to 35s., and the man had £3.

5255. Are you still in the fish-curing business?-Yes; I cure their fish for Spence & Co.

5256. Have you a shop now?-No.

5257. Then you simply manage their curing business?-I merely dry their fish for them.

5258. And the persons you have spoken of just now are still employed by you for the purpose of curing?-Yes.

5259. How are their wages paid?-As I was curing Spence & Co.'s fish, if they chose to go to Spence Co.'s at Uyea Sound in Unst, they got supplies there in an account, but only about one-fourth of them did so. The others got their supplies perhaps in the neighbouring shops. I cannot say where they got them, but they got cash from Spence & Co. at settling time.

5260. Was that cash advanced during the season, or was it all paid at settlement?-It was all paid settlement. If they asked for an advance, they would get it, but I was not aware of any being advanced.

5261. But such advances as were made by Spence and Co. were made by taking goods from their shop?-Yes, so far as I know. I also bought kelp for Spence & Co.

5262. Is there much done in kelp there?-Yes, good deal.

5263. What is the nature of that trade? Do you employ a number of people to gather the sea-weed?-It is women who do that. They form themselves into companies of two or three or four; they gather the seaweed and make the kelp, and then bring it to a merchant to sell. I had a lease of Major Cameron's kelpshores, but I transferred that lease to Spence & Co, and afterwards I bought the kelp and delivered it over to them.

5264. Did the women pay anything to the proprietor for leave to collect the sea-weed?-No; but I paid 20s. a ton, or rather Spence & Co. did.

5265. You paid that money for the exclusive right of purchasing from these women?-For the exclusive right of manufacturing kelp., We can employ people to collect it if we choose, but we think it better just to allow the women to do it themselves, without being forced in any way; and then we paid them 4s. per cwt. in cash for it, while we paid 20s. a ton to the proprietor and taxes.

5266. What taxes are there on the kelp?-Poor-rates, both as proprietor and tenant.

5267. Then 4s. per cwt. is the whole payment which these women receive for gathering the kelp and manufacturing it?-Yes.

5268. They manufacture it and bring it to you?-Yes.

5269. Are they paid entirely in cash?-They have been paid almost entirely in cash this year, but not altogether.

5270. They have the option of running an account for it at the shop?-Yes, if they choose to do so; but if they ask cash, they get it.

5271. Are you aware of any restriction being imposed upon tenants in Yell with regard to the disposing of their cattle or other stock on their ground?-I have known an instance or two of that during my experience in North Yell, but very seldom.

5272. Has that been done when they have been in debt to the merchant?-Yes; if they were in debt, almost beyond redemption.

5273. Then the merchant has interfered as a creditor merely?-Not the merchant, but the proprietor.

5274. Was it for his rent that he interfered?-Yes.

5275. In these cases was the proprietor a merchant as well?-Yes, in some cases.

5276. And he has interfered both for his rent, and for the account due to him as a merchant?-I cannot say about him being a merchant. I always understood it was done for rent. I have known of cattle being taken according to law for a shop account.

5277. You mean that they were poinded?-Yes, by a Sheriff's warrant.

5278. But is there any practice in Yell of a man marking his cattle as belonging to a merchant to whom he is in debt?-No; I never knew that done.

5279. Or coming under an obligation not to sell them to any one except that merchant?-I could quite believe that a tenant would offer his cow or his pony, or whatever it might be, to the proprietor; but I am not aware of any one being compelled to do so in North Yell. I have myself marked a cow of a defaulting tenant when I was acting as my brother's agent, and as lessee of Major Cameron's property, but that was for the rent.

5280. Did you mark it and allow it to remain on the ground?- Yes; I allowed it to continue in the tenant's hands until I might think fit to remove it.

5281. Was that man in debt to you as well?-He was in debt as a tenant only for rent.

5282. Was he not also in debt for goods supplied?-No; because he was not a fisherman; he was a sailor.

5283. Would you give a higher price for kelp than 4s. a cwt. if the women had taken payment of it in goods?-No; there was an understanding at one time that parties would get 6d. less if they took it in cash, [Page 131] but for the last two years, in my experience with Spence & Co., and formerly with myself, the women have been quite at liberty to take cash or goods, and 4s. was the price. According to the terms of my lease, I was bound to pay nothing less than 4s. to the parties who made it.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.

5284. You are a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh at Toab, Dunrossness, and you fish for him?-Yes.

5285. You have heard the evidence that was given by William Goudie and the other fishermen to-day?-Yes.

5286. Do you know it to be correct with regard to the system of fishing there, and the obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes; so far as I can remember, it is correct.

5287. Did it happen some time ago that you had sold fish to another than Mr. Bruce?-It was supposed so.

5288. What was done in consequence?-My house was offered to be let to another tenant. It was publicly advertised at Messrs. Hay's shop at Dunrossness.

5289. The you see the ticket put up?-No, I did not see it.

5290. But you knew of it?-Yes.

5291. And in consequence of what you heard about it, did you go to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.

5292. What did you say? Did you ask why your farm was to be let?-Yes. He told me before I had time to speak that he was forced to offer my house to another tenant. I said there was surely a cause for that, and he said that the cause was that I was selling fish to another man.

5293. To whom did he say you were selling fish?-To Robert Leslie.

5294. Was that the case?-No; I proved it not to be the case. I told him I would bring proof of that if he required it, but I was never called upon to do so.

5295. You satisfied Mr. Bruce that he was under a mistake, and you still hold the same ground?-Yes.

5296. Had you reason to believe that you would really have been turned out of your ground for selling your fish to another than Mr. Bruce if you had done so?-I had every cause to think so.

5297. Why?-Because at the commencement, when he took the fishing into his own lands, there was a letter read in my hearing, to the effect that we were to deliver our fish to him.

5298. Is that the letter which Laurence Smith spoke of to-day?- Yes, the same letter. It was read by John Harper in my hearing.

5299. Do you know whether the meal is dearer at Grutness store than you can get it elsewhere?-Yes; I have got a little there.

5300. Have you bought it cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; I have bought it in Lerwick, and I found it cheaper there than at the store. It was in 1869 that I bought a boll of meal at Lerwick, and I paid £1, 3s. for it, while their meal that season was 24s.

5301. Was there any difference in the weight of the boll at Grutness?-I could not prove that. I had a running account there, and I sometimes got a boll, sometimes half a boll, and sometimes a peck; but when I came to settle, it was all run up into bolls, and I paid 24s. a boll for it.

5302. Had you any reason to suppose that you did not get the same weight in a boll from the store that you got anywhere else?-I made an objection to that, and I was told there was a little deduction made when I got 32 lbs. for a quarter boll instead of 35 lbs, but what that difference was I never knew.

5303. Who told you that?-Gilbert Irvine, the factor.

5304. Did he tell you that he only gave you 32 lbs. for a quarter boll?-I saw the weight myself. What we call a quarter boll is 35 lbs, and what is called a lispund is 32 lbs.; so that there should be a difference between what we call boll weight, and 32 lbs. for the quarter boll.

5305. Then you suspect or believe that you only got a lispund instead of a quarter boll?-Yes; I am under that impression, whether I am correct or not.

5306. Had you not the means of satisfying yourself about that?- Perhaps I might if I had inquired, but I never made any strict inquiry about it.

Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY SINCLAIR, examined.

5307. You are a tenant on the Simbister estate at Levenwick?- Yes; and I was formerly bound under a tacks-master.

5308. That was Robert Mouat?-Yes.

5309. You were bound to fish for him?-Yes.

5310. Who told you that you were so bound?-He told me himself.

5311. Did anybody else tell you that?-No.

5312. Was it understood in the neighbourhood that you were bound to give all your fish to him?-Yes; all my neighbours understood the same.

5313. Did you at any time deliver your fish to another?-Not one tail. I delivered them all to him during his tack.

5314. Was there one time when he gave you warning to leave?- On one occasion, when we had a good fishing, he sent away 7 cwt. of wet fish and kept it off us. My son was fishing with me at the time, and he went to Mouat; and they rather cast out about it at Mouat's house, and he told my son then that we should not be allowed to sit.

5315. Then it was because of a quarrel about the quantity of fish entered in the fish-book that you got your warning?-Yes.

5316. You were not warned out because you gave your fish to another dealer?-No; that was not the cause of it. Then, Mouat would not give me half of the land to sit in, in case my son sat beside me.

5317. Do you mean that he wanted your son to fish for him?-No; he thought that because they had cast out, if I got any land at all, my son would stay beside me; and that upset my son and made him lose his senses, so that he is now in the Asylum.

5318. How did that upset your son?-Because he was of a quick spirit, and he was grieved that we should have been put out of the land.

5319. But you were not put out of the land?-We were. I went to the sea, and Mouat took my wife to a piece of the hill-side and showed her there where we should build our house on a piece of the open hill.

5320. Did you build your house there?-Yes. He said that if we would not build our house there, we might lie at the back of a dyke.

5321. Did you fish for him after that?-Yes.

5322. Were you bound to do so?-My son would not fish, but I was still upon the land, and I just fished for him.

5323. Did you get your provisions at Mouat's store at Sandwick?-Yes; I could do nothing else than go to him, and he has brought me to poverty.

5324. Did you get your meal and other things there?-Yes; I had to go there for them all.

5325. Did you run an account with him, and settle it when you settled for your fish at the end of the year?-Yes.

5326. Had you ever a balance to get in money?-I had money in his hands when I was put out of the land.

5327. Up till the time when Mouat left the place, were you getting money from him year by year?-I was just getting out of the shop what I required, for I never got into debt to him.

5328. If anything was over did you get it in money [Page 132] at the settlement?-No; but the worst thing he did was he last time when he was going about looking for cattle which he could pick out and put away.

5329. Did he pick out any from you?-Yes. He took the last one I had, and he promised to give me a cow for it next week, but it has never come yet.

5330. Did you get any meal at Mouat's store?-The greater part of it was fit for nothing but the pigs.

5331. Could you have got it better at any other place near you?- Yes; but we could not get money from him, and therefore we had to take the meal from his store.

5332. Would he never advance you money for your fish?-No. 5333. You are not under that obligation now, but you can fish for anybody you like?-I am not fishing now; I am too old.

5334. But the people thereabout can fish for anybody they like?- Yes.

<Adjourned.>

Brae: Wednesday, January 10, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

JAMES HAY, examined

5335. Are you a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am a fisherman, but I have not been at Mossbank. I live at a place called Firth, about a mile from Mossbank, to the south and east of it.

5336. Have you a bit of land there?-Yes; a small farm.

5337. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Thomas Adie. I go to the ling-fishing in the summer time.

5338. What bargain do you make with Mr. Adie about selling your fish to him?-I have never had any bargain made when I commenced to fish

5339. You just make up a boat's crew, and you are paid for your fish at the end of the season according to the current rate?-Yes

5340. Is it the understanding with all the boats' crews that they are to be paid at the current rate?-Yes.

5341. When is the price of your fish paid to you? At Martinmas when we settle.

5342. Have you an account in Mr. Adie's books for supplies to

yourself and your family in the meantime?-Yes.

5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your purchases of cotton and other things?-I do, for the principal part of what I need, but not altogether.

5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About 71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe.

5345. Do you always go there for what you want-Yes; generally I do that, unless sometimes, when I am needing some small things, I may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I choose to go.

5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another shop.

5347. How long have you fished for him?-For about fourteen or fifteen years.

5348. When you settle in November or December, have you generally a balance of cash to receive?-Sometimes I have and sometimes not.

5349. Does that depend upon the season?-Yes.

5350. When it has been a good season, you have generally something to receive?-Yes.

5351. How much did you get at last settlement in cash?-I think I got about £19 in money.

5352. What was the amount of your account for goods furnished at the shop?-I had more things in Mr. Adie's hands then than my summer's winnings; I had cattle in to sell.

5353. Had you sold cattle to Mr. Adie as well as your fish?-Yes. I had sold a young stot and a cow; I think they came to about £8.

5354. Were they sold at a public auction?-Yes.

5355. And bought by Mr. Adie there?-Mr. Adie. became good to pay me for them. I could not say exactly who was the purchaser.

5356. The price of these animals was included in the £19 you got in cash?-Yes; I paid my shop account, and then I got that money.

5357. Then, deducting the price you got for your cattle, there is £11 remaining as the price you got for your fish?-Yes; but I owned the boat myself, and I had the other men's hires to get in.

5358. Were these accounted for to you through Adie's books?- Yes. There were five of these hires to be paid; there were six of us in the boat altogether.

5359. What would be their share of the hire?-I think the hire of a boat is 50s.

5360. Then each of them would pay about 8s. 6d.?-Yes.

5361. So that would be 44s. off for boat-hire, leaving little less than £9 as the price of your fish, after deducting your shop account?-No; my share of the summer winning was more than that.

5362. But I am asking you what you got in cash at settlement?-I think it was about £19, or perhaps a little more.

5363. And £8 was taken off for the cow and about 44s. for the boat-hire?-The price of the cow and stot and my summer's earnings were all summed up together, and came to a certain amount; what I had got from Mr. Adie came to a certain amount too, and when I paid that off I had about £19 to get in clear money.

5364. But after taking the price of the cow and the value of the boat-hire off the £19, there would be something like £9 remaining: was that £9 due to you for anything besides your fish? Was anything due to you by Mr. Adie, except the price of the cow and the boat hire, and the price of your fish?-I don't remember anything else.

5365. Then £9 would be something like the price of your fish?-I don't remember.

5366. Have you a pass-book?-I have one but I have not brought it with me.

5367. How much was your shop account?-I think it was about £17.

5368. Then your fish would be worth about £26 altogether: was that the value of your take of fish last year?-No; my fish did not come to that. I think my sixth share came to about £18; but then, as I owned boat of my own, and had the expense of her to pay I was paid a little more than the others, so that I might have more than £18 to get.

5369. How do you square up your account at the shop and your account for fish at the end of the year?-At the end of the year I may have more things put into Mr. Adie's hands than my fishing. For instance last year I had that cow and stot, and perhaps some other things, and these and my fishing are all put together to my credit. Then my out-takes and things I have been requiring from Mr. Adie are put too, and the amount they come to is stated to me.

5370. Is that read over to you, or have you got it [Page 133] already in your pass-book?-Sometimes I have a passbook, and sometimes I don't require one. Sometimes I don't fash with it; that is the truth.

5371. Why is that?-I thought there was very little need for it, because Mr. Adie and I never disputed about these things, and when I had a pass-book I was not very particular about keeping it.

5372. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the season if you want it?-I never was refused it when I asked for it.

5373. Is there generally something due to you for fish at the end of the season?-Sometimes I have been due Mr. Adie, and sometimes I have had a little in his hand; but, taking one time with another, we are generally square, and I am happy to say we are square in the meantime.

5374. Is there anything you think could be mended in that way of settling your accounts?-I don't know, I am sure.

5375. Was there anything particular you came here to-day to say about it?-There is one thing I would say, that we fishermen never know what we are to have when we commence our fishing. We work away as if we were blind. We don't know what the price is to be until the time of settlement, and then we must just take what currency is given, and we can get no further, and can make no more for ourselves.

5376. Do you think you could make any better arrangement than that?-I don't know, I am sure.

5377. Do you think you would be better off if you made a bargain for a fixed price to be paid to you at the delivery of your fish?-I might be better off with that in one season, and I might be worse off in others; but if I made my bargain for that, I could not grumble, although the fish could be paid better. At settlement I must stand by my bargain. Then, if the price of fish was less, the merchant might lose; so that I don't know which way would be best.

5378. But in that way you would know what you were working for?-Yes; and I would have no reason to grumble if I had made a bargain, even although I could have made a better thing of it in another way.

5379. Have you ever been asked to make a bargain of that kind?- No.

5380. Have you ever proposed it yourself?-I have turned it over, and said that it was a hard thing for a poor fisherman like me to fish and not know what I was fishing for, when other seamen knew what they were working for; but I never came to any conclusion about it.

5381. Do you think, if you were paid in that way in the course of the season as the fishing went on, you could make a better use of your money by purchasing your goods at other places than Mr. Adie's shop?-I could not say much about that.

5382. Could you buy your goods as well and as cheaply nearer home?-I don't think it, because the merchants appear to be all much about the same in our neighbourhood. They have all one price for their articles.

5353. Are the merchants about you all engaged in the fishing business as well as in the shop business?-Not all of them; but some of them are. Mr. Pole engaged in it; he is the principal merchant near us.

5384. Are there some of them who are not engaged the fishing business at all?-There is Robert Murray at Swinister; he is not much engaged in it. His shop about half a mile from where I live.

5385. Would you be as well served there, and as cheaply, as you are at Mr. Adie's and at Mr. Pole's?-I don't think would be any better.

5386. Would it be any advantage to you to have your money at your own command?-I might think so. A man is always glad to have some money to lay his hands upon.

5387. In answering my question in that way, do you mean to say that your money is not at your own disposal?-What I have to get when I settle I get without a word, and it is at my own disposal; but I would not like to take money from a man when I was due him anything. I would like always to pay my debts; and what I had over when I would know was my own, and I would make the best of it that I could.

5388. Does that mean that what money you get before settlement is not your own, and is not at your own disposal?-When I was standing in need of anything and wanted a little money, which I did not have myself, I could go to Mr. Adie when I was fishing for him, and ask him for £1 or £2, and he would give it to me, and then when I settled I would pay it back to him.

5389. That is to say, it would be charged against you at settlement?-Yes.

5390. But do you mean to say that if you get £1 or £2 in that way, you would not be at liberty to spend it as you pleased, and to buy goods with it at any shop you liked?-No. I could go where I liked with it, if I got it from him, because, of course, I would pay it back to him again, and he would not care what use I made of it.

5391. Would you rather have more cash advanced to you during the season than you have in an ordinary way at present, and not get all your goods at Voe?-I could not exactly say about that; I might. If I was paying down cash for the goods, I might get them a little cheaper than by marking them down.

5392. Would you get them cheaper for cash at Mr. Adie's own shop at Voe?-Well, money is a thing that every person is always glad to get hold of; and he might give me 1d. or 2d. down upon an article for ready money, which I would not get if he were to mark it down in his book.

5393. Do you know that you get a discount of 5 per cent. there for cash?-I have got it before. I have got 5 per cent. discount when I settled.

5394. Was that on goods that were entered in your account?-Yes; I have got that. I am not perfectly sure if I will get it this year, but I know that I have got it before.

5395. If you get that when you settle at the end of the year, would you get anything more if you were to pay in cash?-I am not able to say.

5396. You just think you would like to have your money in your hand as you deliver your fish: is that the notion you have?-I don't know whether it would be better to get it in my hand then, or to wait until I got it all at once at the conclusion.

5397. Are there some advantages in both ways of dealing?-I believe there are.

5398. Perhaps you would spend it too fast if you had it in your own hands?-I don't know about that. I would not like to spend it if I had it, unless it was for something that I really required to spend it on.

5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am aware of.

5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to it shop somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.

5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because you are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go to his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many times by helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I always felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.

5402. But is it the way with fishermen here, that they got to the shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to speak to that except for myself.

5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? It depends on the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man, and perhaps have very little to go to him with.

5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also likely to engage to fish for the same merchant during the following season?-Yes. When man is short of money, and has not enough with [Page 134] which to pay his land rent, he may go to the man he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he requires, but the understanding in that case is that he will serve him at the fishing for the rising year. That is generally the way it is done.

5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a merchant's shop, it is understood that he must fish to him in the coming year?-Yes; that is generally understood.

5406. Have you had to do that yourself?-No; I have never been so hard up as that in my time.

5407. You have never been behind at the settlement?-Not very often. Sometimes I have been, and I have got advances from Mr. Adie without a word; but I was intending to fish for him in the coming year before I asked them.

5408. And you would make as good a bargain with him as with any other fishmaster?-I have always thought so.

5409. So that you did not fish to him because you were under any compulsion?-No.

5410. Were you under any obligation to do it because you were in his debt?-No. I have never been so deep in his debt but what, if I had it to do, I could have made some effort to get myself clear.

5411. Therefore the answer you previously gave only meant that there might be some men among your neighbours so far in debt that they were obliged to fish to a particular merchant?-Yes; when he supplied them with goods.

5412. Do you think there are many of those men among your neighbours?-I have no doubt there are more that way than there are the other way.

5413. Do you think that arises from the length of time that passes before you can get your money, or is there anything else you can think of that might mend that state of matters?-I cannot say.

5414. Is there anything else you want to tell me about the way in which dealings are carried on here?-No.

5415. You know you are on your oath, and you bound to speak the truth, and nobody can hurt you for anything you say to-day?-I trust that I shall say nothing but the truth, so far as I know.

5416. From whom do you hold your land and house?-From Mr. Bell of Lunna.

5417. Are you not bound by the terms of your lease to fish for any particular person?-No; he did not bind me to do that. I got liberty to serve myself and to fish for any one I pleased when I took the land from him; only if I went to Skerries I would have had to fish for John Robertson, who had a tack of Mr. Bell's land; but if I fished in any other way, he did not stop me from fishing for any person.

5418. But if you went to Skerries, and fished there during the summer, you would be bound by your bargain to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.

5419. How do you know that that is an obligation upon you?-I was told so by the proprietor when I took the land.

5420. Was that told you by Mr. Bell himself?-Yes.

5421. Did he tell you at the same time, that if you fished elsewhere than at Skerries, you were at perfect liberty to fish for any one you liked?-Yes. He told me I was not bound to fish for Mr Robertson unless I fished at Skerries; but that if I fished at Skerries I must fish for him.

5422. Are there people in your neighbourhood who go to fish at Skerries?-There is one boat which generally fishes there.

5423. But they might go elsewhere if they chose?-I cannot say for that.

5424. Do you know of any person who has been threatened or turned off his ground on the estate of Lunna in your neighbourhood for refusing to fish to a particular person?-I do not.

5425. Are the fishermen there all free?-About us they are, so far as I know: that is about Firth, a mile from Mossbank. There are some of Mr. Bell's tenants who have fished along with me, and there was nothing said to them any more than to me because they did not fish at Skerries.

Brae, January 10, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined.

5426. Where do you live?-In a town called Brough, near Mossbank.

5427. Whom do you fish for?-I have been fishing for myself for two years, and my fish have been sold to Mr. Leask and delivered at Lerwick.

5428. Do you cure for yourself?-Yes; I get a man to cure my fish.

5429. Do you engage a man to cure the whole fish of your boat's crew?-Yes; it is a small boat. There are three men and two boys in the crew.

5430. Do you think you make more of your fish in that way than if you delivered them green to a fishcurer?-I think so.

5431. Does Mr. Leask buy them from you cured?-Yes.

5432. He also cures fish himself?-Yes.

5433. When is the price fixed for your fish?-I think it was on 1st November last that we were paid.

5434. You take all your fish to Lerwick at once, once a year, and you get your money paid to you at the time?-Yes.

5435. Is it paid to you in cash?-Yes.

5436. Do you deal at any shop of Mr. Leask's?-No. I commonly deal at Mossbank, at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop.

5437. Do you deal for cash?-Yes.

5438. You pay ready money for what you get?-Yes. Sometimes I take things on credit too; but I am not compelled to do it. I need not do it unless I choose.

5439. Then you are perfectly free to fish for anybody you like, or for yourself if you prefer it?-Yes; and I think it is the best way to fish for myself.

5440. Is that a common thing in your neighbourhood?-It is not.

5441. Why don't the men in your neighbourhood adopt that system if it is the best way?-I don't know. I think for myself, and I suppose other people do the same.

5442. On whose ground are you?-I am on ground belonging to the estate of Busta.

5443. Are the fishermen on the Busta estate all free?-Yes.

5444. There is no tacksman over them, but the fishermen as a rule fish to anybody they like?-I suppose they do; at least, so far as I know, that is the case.

5445. In what way do you think you make more of the fish by curing them yourself than by selling them green?-When I cure them or get them cured for myself, and sell them, I think I can get the turn upon them; and I get cash, which enables me to buy my goods where I can get them cheapest.

5446. Do you get goods cheaper at the shop at Mossbank by paying cash than if you were getting them on credit?-No.

5447. Do you pay the same price for goods there in cash as if they were to be settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.

5448. Have you tried both ways?-Yes.

5449. How long is it since you began to cure your own fish?-It is only two years ago.

5450. How much did you make during the last two years for each man's share?-For the last year we had £8, 13s. each.

5451. Do you think that was more than the average of men who fished for other people?-Yes; taking the price of green fish, I think it was.

5452. Do you know what any of your neighbours got for their green fish?-They got 8s. for ling, and 6s. 6d. for cod and tusk. These were the prices I heard.

5453. Were you fishing during the whole season?-Yes.

5454. How many cwts. of cured fish did you take to Mr. Leask?-I think we had thirty odd cwt. of cured fish; one part of that was ling, and one part was tusk and cod. We had about nineteen cwt. of ling and we sold them at £23.

[Page 135]

5455. When you say that the price for ling is 8s. a cwt., that is the price for green ling?-Yes.

5456. And 21/4 -cwt. of green ling make one cwt. dry?-Yes; that is what the fish-curers calculate upon.

5457. So that nineteen cwt. of cured fish would have been something less than forty-three cwt. green, and you got £23 for that?-Yes.

5458. But from that price you must allow something for the expense of curing?-Yes; it would be from £2 to £2, 10s. per ton for curing.

5459. So that you made some profit by selling your fish in that way?-Yes.

5460. Do you think that, when you cure for yourself, you have any benefit by having the money in your hands to buy goods with where you please?-I think so.

5461. Do you buy cheaper when you have the money in your hands?-Yes; we can buy cheaper in Lerwick than we can do elsewhere.

5462. Do you often buy things at Lerwick?-Some times I do.

5463. I thought you said you bought generally at Mossbank?- Some things I buy at Mossbank; but I buy at several places.

5464. If you were fishing for a particular fish-merchant, would you buy more at his shop than you do when you are fishing for yourself?-That is the general way.

5465. What is the reason for that?-Because a great many of the men have not money to go anywhere else.

5466. And therefore they are induced to go where they can get credit?-Yes.

5467. You think that is not such a good way of doing as curing for yourself, and having the money in your own hands?-It is not; but, at the same time, even when I was fishing to a particular fish-curer, I endeavoured to keep my credit; and if I had asked money from him to go on with, I would have got money as well as goods.

5468. It would not have been refused; but I suppose you would have got more advanced to you in goods than in money?-I could not say that.

5469. Suppose that in July, about the middle of the season, when about half of your fish had been caught, you wanted supplies: would you generally be allowed in the fish-merchant's shop to get any quantity of goods you liked on credit?-Yes.

5470. And would you at that time be advanced any amount of money that you chose to ask?-Yes; on a moderate scale. I could get money as well as goods.

5471. Suppose you were likely to get £20 as the amount of your fish account at the end of the season and that one half of the season was over, would they allow you to run up an account at the fish-merchant's shop to the amount of £10 or £12 to the end of July?-I don't know. I never tried the experiment.

5472. But you know the practice among your neighbours and in the shops where you deal: do you think there would be any objection to allow an account to run up to £10 or £15 for shop goods?-I don't think there would. .

5473. Would there be any objection to advancing you £10 or £15 in money?-I could not say that.

5474. Was that ever tried by anybody you know?-No; I never tried it myself, and I never heard of it being tried, and therefore I cannot say whether it would be allowed or not.

5475. But you have no doubt you would get £12 or £15 in goods?-I have little doubt that I would,-that is, if I were fishing for that particular fish-curer.

5476. What fish-curer were you employed by last?-When I was last employed by any one, it was Mr. Pole, Mossbank.

5477. At that time did you deal at his shop for your supplies?- Yes; for the most part. I dealt more with him then than I have done since.

5478. Your account was settled, at the end of the year?-Yes.

5479. What kind of account had you generally at settling time for supplies to your family?-I cannot recollect exactly how much it was; but sometimes it may have been £3 or £4.

5480. Then you will not be spending so much as that in the shop now?-No; I have not had occasion to do it for the last two years.

5481. Were you under any sort of obligation to deal at Mr. Pole's shop more than at another shop when you were fishing for him?- Not a bit. They did not prevent me from going anywhere I chose. When I chose to ask anything in their shop, I took it at their own price; but if I did not like it, they did not compel me to take it.

5482. Is there anything else you want to say on the subject of this inquiry?-For my part, I have little to say, because I am not so much concerned in it as some men are. I have my freedom and my liberty.

5483. You think that some other men are more interested in these matters than you?-Yes.

5484. In what way are they interested?-Owing to their circumstances; some of them have families, and they must go to the fish-curer and be supplied by him. They get most of their payment in goods, and they cannot get money.

5485. How can they not get money? Is it because they run up an account at the merchant's shop?-Yes.

5486. But they will get money if they ask it?-Yes; they might get money too.

5487. Why is it that they do not get money?-I don't know. What I mean is, that if they run up an account at the shop, they cannot have money of their own with which to buy things cheaper elsewhere.

5488. What makes them run up an account for goods? Is it because they cannot get money easily?-Very likely it is.

5489. But you say they would get money if they asked it?-If they were to ask for money, I don't see any reason why they should not get it as well as goods.

5490. And to the same amount?-I cannot say for that.

5492. Do you mean that the money which they would get if they were asking for it in the course of the fishing season would be regarded as a loan, and not as a payment for their fishing?-No.

5492. Suppose a man were to ask a fish-curer for an advance of money in July, would not that advance of money in July, would not that advance be looked upon as if he were asking for a loan of money?-No; that is not generally the way they would do. If I were fishing to a fish-curer, and giving him my fish, and if I were to ask for some money, it would just go to my account in the same way as if I was taking out goods until the fish were sold at the end of the year when I settled, and my fish would pay for that money as well as for the goods.

5493. But would it not be considered a favour to give money in that way?-I don't think so.

5494. Do you think the fish-curer would be bound to give you money if you asked for it in the beginning of the season?-Yes.

5495. And would he be as ready to give it to you as he would be to give you goods?-No; I don't think he could be expected to do that. However, I cannot say much upon that subject, because I never asked for much money,

5496. Did you think it would be asking a favour to ask for money?-I cannot say.

5497. Did you think the merchant would rather give you goods?- Of course he would expect us to take the goods, from the way of dealing which prevails.

5498. Do you mean that the practice is for the men to get goods advances rather than cash advances during the season and before the settlement?-That depends upon the circumstances of the men who are fishing. Sometimes they require money to pay their rent with, and that is generally advanced to them in money; but when they require goods they usually take them from the fish-curer by whom they are employed.

5499. Do you mean that they don't get money unless it is required by them for some particular purpose?-No; unless they have money to get on their own earnings. If they have money over at settlement time, they will get it in cash when the account is balanced.

[Page 136]

5500. Of course they get it at settlement time; but before then can they get money from the man who employs them, unless for some particular purpose?-No.

5501. Any advances that are made then are made in goods?-Yes; unless they are required in money.

Brae, January 10, 1872, JOHN HENDERSON, examined.

5502. You are a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am.

5503. On whose land do you live?-On Sheriff Bell's.

5504. Are you bound to fish to any particular merchant?-No; not unless I go to the Skerries.

5505. Who do you fish for just now?-For Mr. Pole.

5506. Are you settled with at the end of the year like the other men?-Yes.

5507. Do you deal at Mr. Pole's shop?-Very little.

5508. Where else do you go for your articles?-To any shop where I think I can get them cheapest and best.

5509. You are quite at liberty to go where you please?-I am.

5510. You can deal at Lerwick or at Voe, without running any chance of losing your engagement for the next season?-I can.

5511. Have you generally a good lot of cash to get from Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., at the end of the year?-I have generally the principal part of my earning to get.

5512. Why don't you deal more at Mr. Pole's store?-Because, when I have money, and can go anywhere else, I can perhaps get my goods a little cheaper.

5513. Is it not handy for you to deal at the Mossbank shop?-It is handy, but it is no great hardship for me to go anywhere else if I think I can get my things a little cheaper.

5514. Can you tell me any articles that are cheaper in the one place than in the other?-Meal, for instance, is always higher in Mossbank than it is in Lerwick. Taking the meal from Mossbank at the retail price, there will be a difference of perhaps 8s. or 9s. per sack on that, and on buying a sack in Lerwick for cash. The sack is 280 lbs. weight, or 2 bolls, and that is a difference of 4s. or 4s. 6d. per boll.

5515. When did you try that?-I have tried it now for a good few years.

5516. Is that the difference if you buy it wholesale,-a sack at a time?-Yes.

5517. If you were buying a sack at Mr. Pole's store, how much would you pay for it?-I have never been under the necessity of buying a sack there. What meal I have bought at their shop has always been in small quantities: perhaps about a quarter boll weekly.

5518. What is the price of a quarter boll?-It is different prices: sometimes higher and sometimes lower.

5519. What did you pay for it last?-I have not had a quarter boll of meal from Mossbank this year at all, because last year we thought it too dear, and therefore we gave up taking it.

5520. Tell me any particular time when you bought meal at Mossbank, and found that at the same time, or within a short time after it or before it, you could have got the same meal in Lerwick for less money?-Not the past summer, but the summer before, I had meal from Mossbank, taking it in small portions as it was required, such as a quarter boll weekly; and at the same date, when I was getting these small portions, I got meal from Lerwick to my own house for about 10s. of difference on the sack,-only the meal that I bought from Lerwick was a whole sack, and ready money was given for it, while the meal bought from Mossbank was in small portions, and it was got on credit until the time of settlement.

5521. Do you think that difference was not accounted for by the difference between wholesale and retail prices?-For instance, would you not have got the two bolls at Mossbank, if you had bought that quantity there, as cheaply as you got them at Lerwick?-No; there would have been 5s. of difference if I had bought two bolls there.

5522. But there would be the expense of carrying the meal from Lerwick: that would be worth something?-That was 8d., and the shipping of it 2d.

5523. Is there any other article you think you have an advantage on in the same way?-Yes; there are different articles. For instance, lines are one principal thing we require, and for my sixth share, I would have nineteen lines in my bundle.

5524. Do you buy your own lines?-I do.

5525. Is it the practice with men fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co. to do so?-Some of them do, and some do not; some of them have lines of their own; some buy them and pay for them by instalments; and others hire them. Last year I went to Lerwick and bought my own lines; and my nineteen lines, when they were ready to go to sea, cost me £2, 1s. I heard some of the men who were in the boat say that their portion of the lines, of the same quantity, cost them 51s. or 52s.; that would be paid for at settlement.

5526. Could they have got them cheaper at Mossbank if they had paid for them there in cash?-I could not say for that, because I never inquired into it.

5527. Is there anything else you can mention which you can buy cheaper elsewhere than you can at Mossbank?-If a man has ready money, he will always get little discount wherever he may purchase his goods.

5528. Then I suppose it is the fault of the men themselves that they do not get their ready money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and use it as they like?-Mr. Pole won't refuse money to any man who has it to get; or if he knows he is an honest man, he will give him an advance of money, although he does not have it earned.

5529. But if a man could carry on to the end of the year, he would get all the price of his fish in cash?-Every penny.

5530. And then he could do with it as he pleased, and buy where he chose?-Yes; he could go to any place that was cheapest.

5531. Have you heard the evidence of James Hay and Andrew Tulloch?-Yes.

5532. Do you think that what they stated about the system of things here was generally correct?-I cannot say that there was much wrong in what they said; but I think there would not be a better plan than ready money if it could be obtained.

5533. Would not all the fishermen get ready money if they contracted to have a fixed price for their fish, to be paid to them as the fish were delivered?-They would. There is no fish-merchant who would not pay them the value of their fish in money if they have it to get; but how can they get it in money if they take it out in goods? They cannot expect that.

5534. But if the men made a bargain that they were to be paid in money for their fish every time they were delivered, they would not take it out in goods then?-No; they would have money.

5535. Is that ever done? Is the bargain ever made for a fixed price at the beginning of the season to be paid according to the weight of fish when it is delivered and every time it is delivered?-No; I never had that bargain, and I never heard of it.

5536. Have you ever heard of any different bargain from the common one of settling at the end of the year?-Yes; there is sometimes a difference in the bargains with regard to the lines, when men have lines of their own, and do not require to hire them.

5537. But in all those cases the settlement is at the end of the year

5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No.

5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not in the ling-fishing.

[Page 137]

5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know: some of them might.

5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own chance.

Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined.

5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate neighbourhood of Mossbank.

5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr. Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it.

5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular fish-curer?-No.

5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes.

5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.,

5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes.

5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in two special years. One of these was one year when they were paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past year, when they were also paying 8s.

5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the difference in that respect.

5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that.

5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5.

5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon them for that assistance.

5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of that sort?-Yes, for rent.

5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to them.

5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish for another when I was indebted to them.

5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an extent, but still to some extent.

5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We hear them say very little about that.

5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain much.

5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our present way of fishing.

5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year.

5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that, because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the markets they make.

5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing the price?-Nothing whatever.

5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No.

5564. Nor sold them?-No.

5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that may be a mistake on the part of the men.

5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real ground for that belief or not.

5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any particular instance of that, because we never see the account of sales which the merchants make of the fish.

5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is some time about the month of November.

5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or the first of December..

5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far as I know.

5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as the last witness described.

5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No, I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop.

5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or two pecks or lispunds.

5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.

5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the merchants.

5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we had them.

5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the habit of doing that.

5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals.

5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies.

5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their way to or coming from the fishing-ground.

5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of our fishing operations at the land's end.

5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us refreshments in return.

5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the country currency.

5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose so.

5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now. Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent.

5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much now.

[Page 138]

5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers give?-Yes.

5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes.

5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes.

5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people living in the country.

5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself.

5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small bit of a shop.

Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined.

5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in my own name, but my sons have an interest in it.

5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large number.

5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same.

5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is, that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes.

5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings upon any different system from that?-I have not.

5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts with some of them for a fixed price.

5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.

5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them.

5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes.

5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now; perhaps 12 or 14 years ago.

5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer.

5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year, you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes.

5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the fishermen.

5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes.

5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed.

5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all; and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing.

5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare.

5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price of the boat is paid up.

5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes.

5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d.

5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for themselves.

5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat, and then I would have nothing to get for it.

5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover. We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat of their own.

5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly.

5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some men who take very great care of their materials even when they are hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way.

5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I don't know any other curer who uses it.

5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it.

5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about five fishing seasons.

5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes.

5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139] greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat is not good, and they won't risk it any longer.

5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's hands to provide them with another.

5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland? -I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats.

5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men.

5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all, but the greater part of them have.

5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down his account.

5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the settling time?-Yes.

5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally kept under the head of a company account in name of the master of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.

5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes; we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger; but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa, the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can always be referred to.

5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.

5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account; that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the boat-hire?-Yes.

5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less.

5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes.

5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is not entered in our books.

5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting.

5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman's share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the whole year would average about £12, 5s.

5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living.

5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or by the boat's crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company.

5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they become the fisherman's own property; whereas, if a man gets his outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines must be returned to me.

5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they can always make use of the old ones in some way or other.

5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the fisherman in both cases.

5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes.

5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at sea, he is not liable for that boat.

5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes.

5646. I don't quite see the distinction between the two cases of hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then, when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use them for a season or two after the whole payments have been made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual yearly payment has completed the value of them.

5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?- Yes.

5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of course that must be deducted.

5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a fisherman's account at your shop will be in the course of a season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from £4 to £5. Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there are some men fishing to me who won't have 3s. worth out of my shop in the course of a season.

5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and according to his needs.

5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but not nearly so many as there were some years ago.

5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than they were.

5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon me and said, 'Well, if you won't give me what I want I will go to [Page 140] some other body and fish for them.' Of course these are exceptions.

5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any more.

5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no money coming to him.

5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the fishing.

5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen, that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?- They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the country with regard to the investigation, which you are now prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be made.

5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so.

5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the fishing stations where there was competition, this one trying to barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish. They get the very highest price for them which is given at that time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the price they received at the station and the current price which was being paid at the end of the season.

5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the season was running on?-Yes.

5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that sort?-I do it voluntarily.

5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with.

5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor.

5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station; and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference.

5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines.

5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and the practice has been allowed to continue.

5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of our men who do not do it, but some of them do it.

5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings £200 would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the season.

5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the Skerries?-Yes.

5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store.

5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the summer fishing season.

5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what they need for their own personal use, and not with what they require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them also,-a little tea, and such as that.

5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from £4 or £5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will leave something like £4 or £5 payable in cash to an ordinary man at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many of them who have a great deal more than that to get.

5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair average?-I should say that about £6 might be taken as an average of the amount paid in cash.

5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all.

5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books altogether?-I should fancy about 400.

5677. Are these all employed in the summer fishing?-Yes.

5678. Is there any reason why the whole price of a man's fish should not be paid to him in money?-The only reason is that he has already got part of it in goods. Of course we cannot pay for it in goods and in cash also.

5679. But is there any reason why he should take it in goods unless he likes?-None whatever, unless he likes. There is no compulsion put upon any of the men.

5680. Don't you think he would be better off if he got the money, and paid for the goods in cash as he wanted them?-It is quite possible that he might fancy so; but I cannot see that it would make much difference. We always deduct the 5 per cent. from the goods the men have got, the same as if they were purchasing them for cash.

5681. So that you make no difference between cash payments, and paying for them in account in that way?-None in that respect.

5682. Why is it that you give that amount back in the form of a discount, instead of charging your goods originally at the same price?-Of course if a man buys a quarter of a pound of tea, or half a pound of tobacco we cannot take a discount off that; but we put the whole of the transactions together at the end of the season, and a discount is then allowed. If he bought the whole over the counter, he would pay the price down at once; but he has an advantage by these small items being added together, and the discount taken off, which he would not have if he paid for the articles separately.

5683. So that you really give a larger discount upon your credit dealings than, upon your cash dealings?-Yes; the fisherman has a greater advantage by having a discount upon these small purchases when they are all taken together, than he would have if he were paying for them separately. The discount upon two ounces of tobacco or a quarter pound of tea would be a mere bagatelle; but when the whole of his purchases [Page 141] in the course of the year are added together and the 5 per cent. taken off the whole, it comes to something. With our fishermen, as a rule, I consider that these accounts are perfectly good, and the same as if a man were purchasing for cash.

5684. What do you mean by saying that they are perfectly good?- I believe we are safe in making these advances to the men.

5685. That is because you have a security?-We have no security.

5686. Have you not the security of the fish?-Yes, we have that security, if he catches the fish.

5687. Is it upon that principle that you fix the prices at which you sell your shop goods?-Yes, generally. Of course, if we calculated upon it being really a bad account, we would require to charge larger percentage in order to cover the risk; but we would rather get clear of a man of that kind.

5688. Do you mean that, when a man is an unsafe customer, you put a different price on the goods which he buys?-I don't put a different price on them; but I try to give him as little as I can, although there are some of these men whom it is very troublesome to put off without giving them something.,

5689. Is there a competition for employment among the men to be taken on as fishermen for the summer season?-Yes, considerable.

5690. Are there men sufficient to man any number of boats you wish?-Well, I might be too greedy, wish more than I could manage; but I have found no difficulty hitherto in manning as many boats as we could reasonably manage.

5691. You supply your men with groceries as well as soft goods?-Yes; groceries, soft goods, and meal.

5692. In fixing the prices of these goods, both the groceries and soft goods, do you allow it margin for profit, just the same as any merchant would do in Lerwick, or Wick, or any other town?-I should fancy it is much the same. Of course, groceries being an article of daily use, we charge a less percentage on them than we do on soft goods. Very often soft goods lie on our shelves for a considerable time, and get damaged, and become unsaleable.

5693. But I suppose that would be the principle on which the retail price would be fixed if you deal in only one kind of these articles, or if you were selling them in any other place than Shetland?-Of course; that is the principle on which business is conducted anywhere. I think that goods, for instance soft goods, are sold by us in retail fully as low as they are in the shops in the south; even as cheap as they are retailed in Edinburgh. That is easily accounted for; because they have much larger rents to pay in Edinburgh than we have here.

5694. Do you say the same with regard to provisions?-I think there is not much difference on provisions; only the difference for freight and insurance. Of course, at a place like Voe, the transport of bulky goods comes to be very expensive. For instance, at this season of the year, we cannot get a sack of meal from Aberdeen to my house under 5s.

5695. The meal generally is imported about the end the season?- Yes, generally.

5696. Did you hear the evidence that was given today by some of the witnesses about the price of meal?-Yes.

5697. Are you in a position to say whether the price of meal at Voe is higher than at Lerwick, or about the same?-It is higher than at Lerwick as a matter of course, because we have considerable more expense in bringing it here. We have to bring it up to Brae by water, then cart it across the isthmus, and bring it to my house in boats. When the weather is bad, we have to cart it all the way.

5698. Therefore the price of meal with you is considerably higher?-Yes; and of any bulky article which requires a considerable deal of handling and expense of transport.

5699. What do you suppose the difference is between the price of meal at Voe and the price at Lerwick?-I should fancy about 2s. per boll

5700. Will the difference be that throughout the year?-I think so; but sometimes in the spring we manage to get a vessel to bring it in direct; and then we can sell it as cheap as they do at Lerwick.

5701. Have your men ever made any complaint to you about the price being higher than it ought to be?-No.

5702. Is the price stated to them at the time when they get the meal, or is it generally fixed at settling time?-They know the price of every article when they buy it

5703. Do you calculate that the profit upon your provisions and soft goods, or the profit upon your fish sales, is the greater?-I cannot say.

5704. Have you the same percentage of profit upon both?-No; on the fish sales it is only 5 per cent.

5705. Is that just a commission?-Yes.

5706. That is to say, the payment to the men for the fish, the cost of fitting them out when you do so, and of your curing establishments, will come up to within 5 per cent. of what you sell them for to your buyers in the south?-Yes; and then we have to run the risk of the payments. The fish are all sold on three months bill. Our fishermen are all settled with this year, and I have not touched a sixpence for any of our fish yet.

5707. Does the 5 per cent. cover that risk?-Yes. Of course, if we discounted these bills, that would run off with 11/4 per cent. of it, but we just wait until the bills are due.

5708. Then, if you were under the necessity of paying your fishermen entirely in cash, and did not carry on your shop business, would you be obliged to charge a higher profit upon your fish, or to pay the fishermen less for the fish?-If I had no shop at all, and merely traded in fish, I would require to deal more in them than I do, in order to make a living out of it.

5709. But you can afford to take a smaller commission on your fish than you would otherwise do, by reason of the fact that you are carrying on another business at the same time?-Yes.

5710. You are making two profits, although one of them may be a very small one?-The one profit is entirely at the option of the fisherman. He is not obliged to buy the goods unless he chooses.

5711. Perhaps not, but he would likely require to pay that profit to another merchant, or certainly to pay some profit, and you would expect some of that to come to you?-Yes; every one expects some profit. I employ a good many hands about Voe curing fish. These are invariably settled with in cash, if they are able to do without any supplies during the week, but they are always settled with at the end of the week.

5712. Theirs is a weekly payment?-Yes.

5713. But they get supplies during the week?-Sometimes we are obliged to give them something, otherwise they could not work.

5714. And that is deducted from their weekly pay?-Yes. At the stations the curers are generally engaged at a sum for the season.

5715. In what form are the supplies given at your shop deducted from the weekly payments at Voe?-For instance, if the girls working at the fish have earned 5s. a week, and if they have got 2s. worth of goods, they have only 3s. to get.,

5716. But in what way is it noted that they have got that advance in goods?-We keep an account of it in our book.

5717. Is there a ledger account for each worker?-We have what we term a jot ledger for these weekly accounts. We do not carry them into our regular working books.

5718. How many people are employed in that way?-I have known as high as sixty; they will run from thirty to sixty.

5719. Do those people ever ask you for cash in the course of the week?-Sometimes they do but not very often. The length of time between the pays is so very short that they don't require it, but if they are in need of cash they get it.

5720. Do they prefer to take their advances in goods?-They prefer to take their payment at the end of the week.

[Page 142]

5721. But when they require goods in the course the week, do you give them to them?-Yes; goods and cash are much the same thing to them; for if we gave them money, they would just turn round and buy the goods. If they went anywhere else, they must lose a day's work in going to it.

5722. I suppose that is one reason why the system of fish-curers having stores for shop goods exists, because their shops are at such inconvenient distances from each other?-Yes; the people would lose so much time in travelling to other places in order to get their goods, that we require to keep shops for them. If their time is of any value to them at all, the fact that they have a shop on the spot far more than compensates them for any difference they may pay in price.

5723. But if there were no such shops as yours, would there not be a class of dealers throughout the island who would provide the goods that the people want?-I don't know; perhaps there might be such.

5724. Does a fisherman not incline rather to deal with the employer to whom he delivers his fish, than with another?-I think so. The fishermen and their employers are generally on a friendly footing, and the man is satisfied that the curer he is fishing to will do as fairly to him as possible if he is a deserving man. I consider he gets every advantage that he could naturally expect, and it is an object with the fish-curers in every way to encourage steady careful men.

5725. Will you give me a note of the number of men employed by you, of the total amount of cash paid to them, and of the total amount of their shop accounts for 1870, and also for 1867?-Yes. I found, on looking over my books last night, that the total amount of cash paid at the present settlement was £2015. That includes the Faroe fishing too. With regard to the employment of curers at the stations for a specific sum, I may mention that it would not do to pay them weekly, because for several weeks, and perhaps longer, if it is bad weather, these curers will have nothing to do at all. At the home fishing stations they are paid by a fixed sum yearly; and the reason for that is, that if we were to pay them weekly, they would be quite pleased for two or three weeks if they had nothing to do; but if it came a fine week, and there was a great quantity of work, they would throw everything up and go home, and our fishing might be left to perish.

5726. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing to a great extent?-Not to a great extent; but I have five vessels.

5727. In that case, the arrangement with the men is somewhat different?-Yes, quite different; the men get half the fish, and they are paid the current price for the dry fish.

5728. You cure all the fish, and they get half the price of the dried fish?-Yes.

5729. So that the calculation is somewhat similar?-Yes. There is 5 per cent. taken off for selling and risk before the division takes place.

5730. When is the Faroe fishing at an end?-As rule, it is at an end in August.

5731. When are the fish completely cured?-It is sometimes nearly the end of September before they are cured.

5732. Is the division made then?-No; the owner of the vessel sells all the fish, and the division is not made until the settlement.

5733. In the case of a man who engages with you for the Faroe fishing, is it usual for an account to be opened in his name in the same way as with the others?-Yes; we are obliged to supply him with an outfit. The principle of that agreement is, that the men get one-half the value of the fish after deducting curing, and the expenses of converting the fish into cash. They are also allowed 8 lbs. of biscuit per week; the other provisions they have to furnish for themselves.

5734. These supplies are all entered to the man's debit in your book?-Yes.

5735. Is it usual for you to supply his family during his absence with goods on credit in the same way?-Yes; we are very often obliged to do that in order to keep them from starving.

5736. Is that done on a larger scale than in home fishing?-No; I don't think it is done on such a large scale, for the greater number of the hands going to the Faroe fishing are young men without families.

5737. In the Faroe fishing you have not only the 5 per cent. for selling, but you have the profit on one-half of the fish?-That is sometimes a very small profit, for the vessels will sometimes be £100 in debt in the course of a year.

5738. But that depends on the luck of the voyage?-Yes; we have one-half of the fish for the vessel.

5739. You supply the vessel entirely, and the men have nothing to supply except their fishing lines?-Yes; nothing except their fishing lines-2 lines, or 21/2, for hauling the fish with.

5740. Are these lines supplied by you as part of the outfit?-We have to put them on board the vessel, and then any of the men who require them can get them. Sometimes the men have lines of their own, and don't require to take them from us.

5741. I understand you were engaged at one time in the hosiery trade?-Yes.

5742. You used to buy the hosiery in the same way in which it is now bought in Lerwick?-Yes; always paid in goods, I gave that business up in 1870.

5743. Was there any profit made upon that trade?-No; the only profit I ever made by the hosiery was if we had any profit on the goods that we bartered for them. We never could realize the price, as a whole, which I had paid for the hosiery, and consequently we were obliged to give it up. We had very great difficulty in selling it.

5744. Did you sell your hosiery goods south?-I sent them south, and I had really to take anything they would give us for them.

5745. You do something in that way still, do you not?-Yes, occasionally. The principal thing we do is in purchasing goods from other merchants for sending them south when we get an order. Then we purchase what kinds of goods suit us.

5746. Do you buy them in Lerwick?-Yes, and in the country too.

5747. But you don't buy from the knitters yourself?-I don't buy from them. Sometimes they will make us buy them whether we will or not. We cannot get clear of them sometimes, but we don't want to buy them.

5748. Are the knitters anxious to get paid in money for their hosiery?-I don't know. Very likely they have been so long accustomed to getting goods for them, that they never think of asking such a thing as money.

5749. Do you think they would take a less price for hosiery if they were paid in money?-I don't think it.

5750. I suppose they want the goods in the country, and they think they get a profit by taking them?-Yes; for instance, if they have a pair of socks to sell, they won't sell them under 8d., and if you offer them 6d. in cash it is no object for them to take it. They would rather have 8d. worth of goods. In that way they are better off by getting the goods, because if they got 6d. in cash they would just lay it out in buying 6d. worth of goods.

5751. Do you employ beach boys extensively?-Yes, a good many; not at Voe, but at Papa Stour, Stenness, and Skerries.

5752. What is the usual wage for a beach boy?-The usual wage now is from £2 to £3, 10s. for boys.

5753. What is it for women?-Women don't usually work there. If we require to employ women on an emergency, then they are employed at the station at so much per day. There is no regular wage for them.

5754. Do the beach boys get accounts opened in their names at your shop?-We are obliged to do that in order to supply them with food. Sometimes we have to give them shoes and clothing to cover them.

5755. Do they generally get a balance of cash at the [Page 143] end of the year?-Yes; where they are careful, they have a considerable balance to get. Some of them will even have more than half their wages to get in cash.

5756. Are you tacksman of any estate or an owner of land in Shetland?-I am not tacksman of anything but the Skerries Islands. Mr. Bruce of Simbister is the proprietor.

5757. Are there any people living on these islands permanently all the year round?-Yes.

5758. Are they bound to fish for you?-Yes; and they have no wish to change.

5759. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce, and you take the risk of their payments?-Yes.

5760. In that case their rent enters your account as deduction against the men?-Yes. I manage Lady Nicholson's property in Papa, more as a factor for her than as a tacksman.

5761. Are the fishermen there free to fish to anybody they please?-Yes.

5762. But in point of fact they fish to you?-They all fish to me, for the very simple reason that there is no other one there for them to fish to.

5763. Do any of them cure their own fish, or try to do it?-There is only one native crew who cure their own fish at Papa.

5764. They prefer to do so, and you make no objection?-None whatever; and when their fish are cured, they just deliver them to my man there, and we buy them cured at the current price for cured fish.

5765. Do you think these men make as much of their fish as the other men do?-They do; but they have a great deal of labour with it. When the season is bad, it requires a great deal of attention from the whole of these men to attend to a few fish, and to get them dried, and perhaps it will be well on in September before they get over with it. They also run a risk their fish being spoiled.

5766. I suppose some fish are necessarily damaged in the course of curing?-Yes; it is a very important thing to be particular about that. They get damaged with rain, and they get damaged with sand and with the sea-breeze, and they require a great deal of attention.

5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay £110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only £68, I virtually pay the difference just for the station-that is, station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.

5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold to the Lighthouse Commissioners.

5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, why don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I make of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned them adrift it would be a fearful thing.

5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at the Skerries with the natives.

5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.

5772. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the system of carrying on business, or with reference to the evidence that has been laid before the Commission previously?-Not so far as I am aware.

Brae, January 10, 1872, CHARLES YOUNG, examined

5773. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.

5774. How long have you been there?-For twenty years.

5775. Do you hold land there?-No.

5776. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. John Anderson, Hillswick.

5777. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.

5778. How far is Stenness from Hillswick?-About three miles. I do not live at Stenness. I live in the south part of North Mavine, at Manaster, about twelve miles from Stenness.

5779. Do you go to Stenness merely for the fishing?-Yes.

5780. Has Mr. Anderson a station there?-Yes; only in summer and harvest.

5781. Has Mr. Adie also a station at Stenness?-Yes.

5782. How long have you fished for Mr. Anderson?-I have fished for about seventeen years for Anderson Brothers. I fished for two years at Ollaberry, and I fished for the time I have mentioned for Anderson & Co.

5783. How are you paid for your fish? Do you get most of your payment in goods or in cash at settling time?-I have got most in cash.

5784. What is the time for settling?-The settling time commences about 12th November, but for some years we have generally settled from 26th to 27th November.

5785. Do you generally get your supplies during the fishing season from Mr Anderson at Stenness?-Yes.

5786. Where is your family supplied? -I do not require much supplies for my family, I can buy them at any shop in the neighbourhood.

5787. Is there any shop at Manaster from which your family are supplied?-No. The most part of my dealing has been with Mr. Anderson, but I sometimes deal with Mr. Inkster at Brae, or any shop I may have occasion to go to.

5788. Are your family generally supplied by Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-No; not as a general rule.

5789. Do you run an account with Mr. Anderson?-Yes.

5790. The two sides are balanced at the end of the year in November, and you generally get a good part of your payment in cash?-Yes.

5791. Do you get advances in money during the fishing season?- Not unless I require them; but if require them, I can get them.

5792. Do you ask for them as a favour?-No.

5793. Do you want the money for some particular purpose when you ask for it?-Yes.

5794. Do you always get it when you ask it?-Yes. I asked for £5 this year, about the beginning of the fishing, and I got it without any difficulty.

5795. Do you also get any reasonable quantity of goods you want?-Yes.

5796. Are the goods supplied to you at Stenness or at Hillswick?- To a certain extent at Stenness, and for the greater part at Hillswick.

5797. Do you go there for them?-Yes.

5798. Do you get both meal and clothing there?-Yes; I generally get them there in the summer season for the fishing.

5799. Is the meal there of good quality and reasonable price?- Yes; it is about the same as in other parts of the country.

5800. Would you have any advantage if you were going to another dealer for your meal and clothing?-I don't think I could have any.

5801. You think you get your goods as good and as cheap as you could desire?-Yes; they are as good and as cheap, there as at any other part of the island.

5802. Or at Stenness?-Yes; it is not much clothing they have at that place. It is only a temporary place, where they keep supplies for the men during the fishing season.

5803. Then the way in which you deal is very much the same as has been described by the witnesses from [Page 144] Mossbank?-Yes; I cannot say there is much difference.

5804. You are not obliged to fish for any person in particular?- No.

5805. You are a free man?-Yes.

5806. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-Yes.

5807. Would you rather be paid all at once in cash?-Yes.

5808. Why don't you manage to get that done?-I can hardly say; circumstances won't allow it. Sometimes the reason for it arises from the way in which we are placed as a crew of men. The curers will sometimes object to give it to one man in a boat's crew, unless all the men were alike.

5809. And all the men would not wish it in cash?-There are not many who would not wish for it in cash.

5810. Why could not the whole of the boat's crew get it in cash?- Because some of the men have got behind, and they cannot manage to go on throughout the rest of the season unless they get supplies from the curer.

5811. They are in the curer's debt at the commencement?-Yes, or perhaps they might be free men; but they have no opportunity of supplying themselves with anything until the end of the fishing.

5812. Therefore, when there are one or two men in boat's crew who are in that position, the curer objects to give cash payments to the others?-I cannot say that, because I have not seen it asked by the rest; but we have been conforming to the old practice that has been going on of fishing to the curers, and being paid by them at the end of the season.

5813. Do you want any change in the system?-The only change I would want in the system would be to know what I was working for. I should like to see a change in that respect.

5814. Would you like to have a price fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes; before I commenced to fish, because according to the system we are proceeding on now we might go to the fishing, and at the end of the fishing season or at the end of the year when they settle with us, the merchants could pay us if they liked with 2s. a cwt.

5815. Do they not come under an obligation to pay you what is the current price at the end of the season?-It is not very often that we enter into engagements of any kind. The men who are free men generally fish for them, and they just fish upon an understanding that they are to be paid the country currency.

5816. But it is understood that they are to be paid the country currency?-Yes.

5817. And you would be entitled to get the country currency in any case?-Yes; but if the fish were going down as low as they might do, we would still only get the currency.

5818. Do you mean that the fish are sometimes higher earlier in the season than they are at the end?-No; what I mean is that the price varies very much. I have seen the price 4s. 6d. a cwt. in some years, and 8s. in other years; and if the price were to go below 4s. 6d., we would still only be paid according to that. But if we had a fixed price before we went to sea at all, I think that would be better. If there had been an average price fixed at the commencement of the season while I have been fishing, I would have been better satisfied in my own mind, because I would have known what I was working for. In that way the curer would have the advantage in some years, and in other years we might have the advantage.

5819. Do you think there would be any difficulty in getting the fishermen to stick to their bargain, if there was an arrangement of that kind made at the beginning of the season?-I fear there might be some difficulty with some of them.

5820. Some of them might think that if the price were to rise, they ought to get the full value of that rise?-I don't think any reasonable man could expect that, if he had made a fixed bargain to be paid so much.

5821. But you say that some of the men would make a difficulty about an arrangement of that kind; what do you mean by that?- The only difficulty I see would be a want of means to supply what they require in order to fit them for the fishing; but I think the difficulty might be got over.

5822. Do you mean that the men would get under weigh even if there was a fixed price?-I think so.

5823. When would you have that fixed price paid?-For my own part I would not care although we were not paid until the same time when we are paid at present. If it were paid weekly, I don't know how that system might work.

5824. Do you think that all the fishermen would like to have a price fixed in the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that the whole would like to have it, but for my own part I should like it and I know there are others besides me.

5825. Do you think there would be no difficulty in getting credit from the fish-curer in the same way as at present, if there was a fixed price?-No; the time for fixing the price might be the only thing that would be altered, and the settlement would still remain in November. We would then have a fixed price, and would know what we were working for.

5826. You have no objection to the system of advances?-I cannot say that I have.

5827. Are you quite at liberty to engage with any fish-curer you please, and to engage to fish for him through the season?-Yes.

5828. Has every fisherman the same liberty?-Every one, so far as I know, in this place.

5829. Even although he is in debt to the fish-curer?-No; in that case the fish-curer expects him to fish for him until his debt is paid. That is generally looked for, and in some instances I know that they had to agree to do it.

5830. Do you know that they wished to fish for another curer, but that they were obliged to fish to the man to whom they were in debt?-They did not wish to fish to another curer, but that fish-curer wished them to sign an agreement to fish to him for the rising season.

5831. Did they agree to do that?-Yes. They did not say anything about leaving the fish-curer, but only he wished them to agree.

5832. At what time of the year was that?-I have seen it done in the month of November, and also in December.

5833. Did the fish-curer ask them to do that at a time when they were wanting further advances of goods or money?-Yes, advances of money.

5834. And it was in order that he might have some security for these advances that he asked them to sign the agreement?-Yes.

5835. Is that a common thing?-I cannot say it is a common thing in my experience, but I have known it done in two or three different cases.

5836. Where was that?-At Hillswick.

5837. Have you known it done anywhere else?-No.

5838. Who were the men with whom it was done?-One man who told me twice over about it was Hugh Phillip; it happened with him in two different years.

5839. Has it happened with anybody else to your knowledge?- No.

5840. Was it not quite fair that a man should be expected to work for the curer until his debt was paid?-Yes.

5841. How does a man get into such an amount of debt as that? Is it from dealing with the shop?-I cannot say that the shop accounts are the cause of it, but it may arise from the circumstances of his family. The fishing here is the only thing a man has to depend upon, and sometimes, when it turns out bad year, he perhaps has taken a greater amount of supply from the shop for his family than usual.

5842. Was Phillip's account for shop goods?-It was for an advance of rent.

5843. That was what he was taking the money for but was he in debt before for shop goods?-Yes.

[Page 145]

Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM GREEN, examined.

5844. You live at Sullem?-Yes.

5845. Are you a boat-skipper?-Yes.

5846. Where do you fish?-At Stenness.

5847. To whom do you deliver your fish?-To Mr. Adie.

5848. Have you done that long?-For six years.

5849. Do you settle with him at the end of the season?-Yes.

5850. Did you hear Mr Adie's evidence to-day?-I did.

5851. Did it give a fair account of the way in which the settlement is made?-Yes.

5852. Are you one of the men who generally have a balance in your favour at the end of the year?-Yes.

5853. Would it be an advantage to you to have a shorter settlement?-I don't think so.

5854. Why?-Because we fish during the year and at the year's end we settle with him.

5855. Are you quite content with the settlement as it is?-For my part I am.

5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great extent?-Yes.

5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes.

5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is.

5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of a boat coming my way.

5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to nine miles.

5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward.

5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-Much the same.

5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I deal more with Mr. Adie than with them.

5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes.

5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr. Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places.

5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the distance?-Yes.

5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open account there?-Yes.

5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him.

5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at the year's end we make a settlement.

5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the meantime?-Yes.

5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe for your goods?-It might.

5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a great advantage.

5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes.

5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to do so?-No, we are not obliged.

5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?- That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9 after deducting our accounts.

5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things that you want to buy?-Yes.

Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined.

5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole, Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes.

5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell.

5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes.

5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do.

5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that is quite a trifling difference.

5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes 21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and in the case of tusk it takes more.

5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it is a little less, and in some years a little more.

5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so much green?-There can be if it is wished.

5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry.

5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?- Yes.

5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4 cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt. green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?- Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at 8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt. of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.

5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat and lines, which has to come off the fish also.

5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six seasons.

5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the lines are getting more used and more worn.

5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the current price of any other commodity in any other place would be ascertained.

5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out the price?-Yes.

5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.

5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure about that; but I never attended one.

5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.

5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.

5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does happen occasionally.

5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.

5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.

5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one firm complain that they have not got so large price as their neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.

5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season begins?-I don't think so.

5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were so fixed?-I do not.

5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.

5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect they could possibly be better than they are.

5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a fixed rate per annum?-Yes.

5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?- Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then, before they commence work on the beach, they require some clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are settled with at the end.

5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.

5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we very seldom pay a boy more than £3.

5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find a considerable difficulty sometimes.

5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For the past year for instance, it has not.

5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.

5914. Are there many people employed in your curing establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women, but there are a few boys and a few old people.

5915. How are they paid?-By the day.

5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish

5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks, or perhaps whole season.

5918. How many days will these women be employed in the course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?- Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end of September we will employ on an average about twenty women daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.

5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?- Yes.

5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in goods?-Yes, a considerable part.

5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.

5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.

5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for them.

5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest shop is about a mile off, I think.

5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.

5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.

5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.

5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.

5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they seldom do it.

5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.

5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not owners.

5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm, are factors for one or two small properties.

5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors of land?-Not tacksmen.

5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of one-fifth part of a rental of £3.

5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.

5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.

5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them the current price of the country.

5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?- Aywick, in East Yell.

5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.

5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them. If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.

5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go to the whale fishing if they prefer it.

5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish to you?-Yes, if we wish it.

5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick, in North Yell.

5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us. There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.

5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us. They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to fish to us.

5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven. These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.

5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of small place in Delting, at Mossbank.

5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.

5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only one of them, I think, who fishes for us.

5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.

5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection with Greenbank.

5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same way against the price of the fish?-Yes.

5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat only.

5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.

5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small extent.

5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie has described?-Yes, quite the same.

5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.

5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.

5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.

5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.

5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated already.

5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year. There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.

5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll

5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick, because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price current for your inspection.

5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices at your own shop?-Yes.

5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our books can show them.

5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the party.

5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.

5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.

5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.

5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.

5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the man's account?-Yes.

5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.

5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at Mossbank?-I am.

5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is my fourteenth year.

5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and with their families?-Yes.

5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.

5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.

5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I refer to?-Yes.

5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.

5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful character in the people. For example, they are bound by their agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all that is done in an underhand way.

5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of them except from the fishermen's own statements.

5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.

5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by purchasing from other boats.

5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.

5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make purchases.

5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of individual cases that have come under my notice.

5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them do.

5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can hope to pay in one year.

5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in debt.

5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about £20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.

5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they never think of making any provision for the future. They know when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they were accused of running too far into debt.

5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.

5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the shopkeeper?-They are under his control.

5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes their energies.

5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a man being in debt paralyzes his energies.

5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready money?-The way in which I would understand the system operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large family, cannot afford to do that.

5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have spoken of.

5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they otherwise would do?-I think so.

6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods cheaper.

6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these merchants are higher than they are at others where that system does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal experience as to the difference in that respect.

6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.

6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above any difference in price. There are many articles I require which are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get such articles as are suitable for me.

6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.

6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in everything else.

6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery goods because they would get money from her for them. They often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour to get her to buy them.

6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.

<Adjourned>

Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.

6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.

6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.

6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for him in the summer season for the last six years.

6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.

6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.

6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.

6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.

6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe fishing. During that time I have had my freedom

6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.

6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily ability was one.

6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.

6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They are supposed to fish for their landlord.

6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, from hearsay.

6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give them to him.

6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.

6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered you a good wage?-[No answer.]

6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty until I inquired at my land-master.

6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: have they told you that that is the obligation under which they lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.

6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is the understanding that they must fish to the master.

6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th January.

6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.

6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man to read it for me.

6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.

6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.

6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read it to you?-I had other errands besides that.

6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.

6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.

6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.

6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.

6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid to go, and that I should tell the truth.

6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.

6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.

6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what had taken place between me and himself.

6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or documents.

6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?- Yes.

6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.

6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that. I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.

6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All that I remember.

6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated so much in some of your answers. You said the people at Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?- As I supposed.

6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them do it.

6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.

6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so that I don't know many of the people.

6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.

6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.

6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No answer.]

6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?- I believe they do; but I don't know.

6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of the men who do that.

6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My dealings are there, for the most part.

6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than Voe?-I cannot say.

6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it called thirteen miles; but I don't know.

6060. Are you married?-Yes.

6061. Have you a family?-Yes.

6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.

6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?- Sometimes.

6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick.

6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere too.

6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.

6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so far as I know.

6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled about the end of the year?-Yes.

6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally before.

6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]

6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the year from Mr. Adie?-No.

6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the year?-Yes.

6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for something over £7.

6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always.

6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not sure, but I think it is four years ago.

6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d., 1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I always got the cash when I asked it.

6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year.

6078. And you were delivering fish to Mr. Adie at the time you got that cash?-Yes.

6079. You were also to some extent in his debt?-Yes.

6080. Did he give you cash when you asked for it?-Yes.

6081. Did you get cash from him with which to pay your rent?-A little: £2.

6082. That is not marked in your pass-book?-No.

6083. Did you get it since the last entry was made in your book?- I got it before January. That is not all my account.

6084. Have you another book?-No.

6085. But there are some things which you have got which are not put in here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my book, and I have got what I asked.

6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have your pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-Yes.

6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I ask it to be done.

6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a hurry to get home.

6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they were not honest.

6091. Does Mr. Anderson send any smacks to the Faroe fishing?-

Not to my knowledge.

6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr. Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do.

6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes.

6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same reason?-I cannot answer that.

6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?- Not so far as I remember.

[Page 151]

6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know.

6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember.

6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some time before, but not long.

6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the merchant entirely?-Yes.

6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes.

6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters.

6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish.

6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait with which the fish are caught.

6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our own lines.

6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?- Yes.

6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not.

6107. The book you have produced is for your own family requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop.

6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses.

6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good towards selling. I get no selling fish.

6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes.

6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the stones.

6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four years, so far as I remember.

6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry.

6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?- About half a mile.

6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes.

6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge.

6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that.

6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?- No, I would not.

6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use comes from there.

6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book about with me.

6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to Ollaberry direct.

6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember.

6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for.

6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The money, of course, was his.

6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at Ollaberry?-I don't think there are.

6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the little steamboat or a packet which ran there.

6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.

6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.

6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in previous years in the same way.

6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't remember.

6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.

6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr. Adie to look over the pass-book.

6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.

6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.

6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.

6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my wife knits.

6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry, or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient. She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will buy them.

6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods.

6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for it.

6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No, not so far as I know.

6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at Lochend.

6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know.

6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an account of her own, so far as I know.

6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do with?-Yes.

6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr. Laurenson's?-No.

6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No.

6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is goods.

6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?- It is settled when she is able to pay it.

6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her favour.

6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything that I know.

6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-Yes; 8s. a year.

6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No.

6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?- Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked.

6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes.

6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of their land in Shetland?-Not in our district.

6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on Major Cameron's estate.

6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I suppose they could not comply with his terms.

6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes.

[Page 152]

6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my knowledge.

6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of.

6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes.

6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell.

6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine.

6164. Have you an account there?-Yes.

6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it; but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands.

6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No.

6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it.

6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes different ways of getting money.

6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as a tailor.

6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes.

6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally.

6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that.

6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take it home?-I take it home.

6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account; but if I want money, I get it.

6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr. Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always.

6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or trousers?-Yes.

6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr. Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to our credit, they would go.

6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally.

6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two they have generally been 6d.

6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes.

6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get a better price there?-So far as I know, we could.

6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I know.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON, examined.

6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the fishing station at Stenness.

6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat.

6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a number of years.

6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs. Cheyne's.

6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta.

6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any man, and I have always been so.

6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?- Yes; I always keep my own account myself.

6190. Have you a pass-book?-No.

6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have.

6192. Do you generally get your supplies and provisions from him?-I do; but I buy my provisions where I think I can get them cheapest. I am not bound to get my provisions from him.

6193. Do you find they are as good at Hillswick as you can get them anywhere else in the country?-I find that I cannot get much profit or advantage by going even to Lerwick to buy my goods, more than by buying them at Hillswick. I could not get so much profit as would pay me for my trouble.

6194. Have you bought meal at both places?-I generally buy very little meal.

6195. Do you get enough meal off your own ground to serve you?-Generally I do. I have a pretty good farm-just as much as will hold us in meal.

6196. How far do you live from Hillswick?-About four English miles.

6197. When you go to Stenness, do you get your supplies there?- Yes; the supplies that are required for the fishing.

6198. You keep an account for these with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.

6199. And that is balanced every year?-Yes; I settle once a year-perhaps in November.

6200. Have you generally a balance to get in cash?-Generally I have.

6201. How much did you get last year?-I don't know; the amount differs yearly.

6202. But how much had you to get last year?-I don't know. Perhaps I had £20 to get from him.

6203. Was that the balance which was due to you?-Yes; I suppose I got £20 of cash from him last year.

6204. Was that the whole price of your fish, or was it the balance which you got in cash?-It was the balance I got in cash.

6205. Do you think many of your neighbours got much?-I don't know, for I don't interfere with any man's accounts.

6206. Are you a skipper?-Yes.

6207. Have you any idea whether any of your men are as well off at the end of the year as you are?-I think so.

6208. Are most of them as well off?-I think so.

6209. You don't hear them talking about having balance against them?-No, I don't hear much about that. It does not lie in my way to interfere with it.

6210. Do you think the fishermen are better off now than they used to be long ago?-I think they are a great deal better off. I know I am much better off than ever my father was.

6211. How does that happen?-Because my father was a bound man, and had to fish at a very low price before he could be a tenant; but being a free man, I pay my rent on a day, and I serve any man I choose, and make the best bargain for myself that I can.

6212. Would you be better off if you knew before settling time what you were to get for your fish at the end of the year?-I know the price of the fish about settling time.

6213. But you don't know it until settling time?-No. I might be worse off if I knew it sooner, because I might get a lower figure, as the merchant could not be sure then what he would get for his fish. The price of fish in the south varies yearly.

6214. Who fixes the price at the end of the season?-I am not able to answer that exactly.

6215. What is your bargain about it?-I have had no particular bargains with the fish-curer; but there is an understanding that I have to get the highest currency of the country.

6216. Do you know how that is settled?-I don't; or if I have heard it, I did not understand.

6217. You don't know how it is found out what the highest currency is?-No; I cannot answer that exactly.

[Page 153]

6218. Who tells you what it is?-It is publicly known at settlement what is to be paid for the fish. We know what every man pays, and what the dry fish can realize.

6219. Is Hillswick the nearest shop you can go to for your goods?-It is the nearest shop that I can go to to get good goods. There are small articles sold nearer, but Hillswick is the only shop.

6220. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day to give evidence?-Nobody told me; but I heard that this was the day on which the evidence was to be given.

6221. Who told you that?-I don't remember now who told me. I think there was a lad from Hillswick who told me about it two days back.

6222. What was his name?-Arthur Sandison.

6223. What does he do?-He is the shopkeeper here for Mr. Anderson.

6224. And he told you to come here?-He told me this was the day when the evidence was to be taken, and that it was to be a public meeting. I understood something concerning it, and I came here voluntarily. There was no man who instigated me to come.

6225. Did Sandison not tell you that you had better come?-I don't remember him saying that I had better come or not; but, however, no man instigated me to come. I did not require to be cross-questioned to come; I just came freely of my own consent.

6226. You said the fishermen are better off now than they used to be: can you tell me any difference there is upon their condition?-I told you already that they were bound men before, but they are not so now with me.

6227. Is there anything else in which they are better off?-Yes; I think a free man is better in every point of view than a bound man.

6228. Do you think the men get a better price for their fish now?- I think they are getting double now for their fish what they were getting about fifty years back, or perhaps forty years.

6229. Do you know that from your father?-No; I know it from my uncle's accounts. He was a factor at Stenness; and I see from his accounts what the price at Stenness was then, and I know what it is now, and can see the improvement.

6230. Have you got his accounts?-I have. I have looked into them at home.

6231. What kind of accounts are they?-Factor's accounts.

6232. Do they show the price of the fish, or just the quantities delivered?-They show the price paid to the fishermen, and also the price of meal and other articles.

6233. What was the price of fish in those accounts?-It was as low as 4s. per cwt. for green fish.

6234. And it is now about double?-Yes.

6235. Do you remember the price of meal then?-Meal was sometimes very high. I remember seeing meal charged at 12s. per lispund of 32 lbs. This season it has been 5s. 4d.

6236. But sometimes it is higher?-Yes; the price of meal varies continually, just as it does in the south market. I don't think there is much advantage on that score.

6237. You don't think there is much difference on the price of meal, but on the price of fish there is a great difference?-Yes.

6238. Is there anything else you are able to tell me about the subject of this inquiry?-I don't think so.

6239. Have you any boys engaged at fish-curing work?-I had one boy engaged at it during the past season. He was in Mr. Adie's service at Stenness.

6240. Mr. Adie keeps a shop there during the fishing season?- Yes; to supply the fishermen with any necessaries during the time of the fishing.

6241. Does your boy keep an account at that shop?-He has only been employed for one season, and I kept his account and settled for him myself. He is quite a young boy-only thirteen years of age.

6242. Do you think it is better for you to do that than to allow him to have an account of his own?-He is not capable of keeping accounts yet. He has had no education for that.

6243. Had he no separate account in Mr. Adie's shop?-It was a mere trifle.

6244. Was he paid his balance?-Yes; it was paid at once in cash. Mr. Adie paid it to me.

6245. Is that a usual way of doing with the beach boys?-I think every one who had cash to get got it at once, and the man who was careful would get his cash at once. If I had £50 to get from the fish-curer, I would get it handed to me at once. I say that from my own personal experience; and that is always so with careful men.

6246. Then you are a successful man, and I daresay you have a large balance at your bank account?-I have too large a family to have a large balance there. I require a great deal of money for my family.

6247. Have you ever gone to the Faroe fishing?-I have only been a ling fisher.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, HENRY WILLIAMSON, examined.

6248. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.

6249. Do you hold some land on Mrs. Cheyne's estate?-Stenness is the station where we fish; and the farms we hold under crop, and where we live, are near it, at Tangwick.

6250. Your land is on the Busta estate, and you pay your rent to Mr. Gifford?-Yes.

6251. Are you free to fish to anybody you like?-Yes.

6252. For whom do you generally fish?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for twenty-three years back.

6253. Do you get your goods at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick?-Yes, for the most part, or anywhere else I choose.

6254. Is there any other shop in the neighbourhood where you get goods?-Yes, occasionally. There is a shop at Ollaberry; and there is a store of Mr. Adie's at Stenness, kept by a factor during the fishing season.

6255. Are there also some small shops in the country?-Yes.

6256. Do you sometimes get goods from them?-Yes; if I require them, and if it is convenient for me.

6257. But most of your dealings are at Hillswick?-Yes, because it is near hand.

6258. Is it as handy a place for you as any?-Yes.

6259. Do you keep an account there?-Yes.

6260. Is it settled at the end of the year, when you settle for your fish?-Yes.

6261. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year in cash?-Yes, for the most part I have.

6262. How much?-It varies very much, according to the fishing. We had a good season this year, and consequently we had a good return.

6263. But sometimes you have a balance against you?-I have not had that for some time back. When the fishing is good, of course a careful man will be able to save money.

6264. Is it five or six years since the balance was on the wrong side for you?-It is between twelve and twenty years since I was due anything; but I found no difference in the man I was serving, when I required money in advance then, than I do now when I have money of my own to get.

6265. Do you get cash in the fishing season when you ask for it?- Yes; whenever I asked for it, even when I had to ask for it in advance, I got it.

6266. Are you quite satisfied with the goods you get at the shop?- I am quite satisfied both with the qualities I receive, and with what is charged for the goods I require.

6267. Would it do you any good to have the price of your fish fixed at the beginning of the year, so that you would know what you were to get for them?-I am convinced that it would be a great disadvantage to the fishermen at large in Shetland; and that was partly [Page 154] what brought me here, when I heard there was to be a meeting. I knew little about it until I came here, but I thought I was called upon to come and give you my views upon it truly. I think the present system in Shetland has done better for the fishermen than any new system would do which could be brought in; and I think I know about it, because I have been at the ling-fishing for fifty-four years.

6268. Have you always had your price fixed according to the currency at the end of the year?-Yes. We only know our price some time before settling time, and I suppose we are paid according to the current price which rules in the south market.

6269. Do you think the price is always fairly enough fixed according to the sales which the fish-merchants have made?-I think so.

6270. Do other people not think so?-I don't know. I hear very little said about that; and as to that, I would not regard much what others said. I would have more regard to my own views.

6271. But have you heard complaints made about that?-I have no doubt I have heard them. It is a very common thing for us to hear people complaining.

6272. Is it the men who are bound to fish that are more apt to complain?-No doubt it is; but I am quite convinced, as I have already said, that any change in the system will not benefit the labouring men.

6273. Why?-Because I think they are fully as well served now as they could be. Those who are not able to pay at the time for what goods they require are dealt fairly with, and are never brought to a stand.

6274. Then you think it is an advantage for the fishermen, in a bad season, to be able to get an advance in order to carry them through until the following year?-I know it is, because, although I have never been one farthing in debt, yet there are many men with families who I know, if it had not been for the kindness of the merchant or his factor in giving them advances, would never have been able to carry through, because they had no means of their own, and their families did not support them.

6275. Are there many men you have known of that kind who have been carried through the season by the advances of the fish-merchant?-A great many in some seasons, but not at present. These have been fine years for Shetland.

6276. But some seasons ago, when the fishings and the crops were not so good, were there many such men?-About twenty years ago there were plenty of them.

6277. Were there many of them five years ago?-I don't know that there were so many of them then. There was a bad season a short time ago; but it is turned twenty years now since there were such bad times in Shetland, and the people were carried through then chiefly by the kindness of the merchants for whom they worked.

6278. They got advances on their accounts just in the same way as you would get your cash paid to you, if the merchant were due it to you?-Yes; and not only that, but I know that the curers often paid their rents for them in cash in advance, although I did not have much experience of that myself.

6279. Were these advances generally made in money, or in articles which the men wanted out of the shop?-Generally in goods.

6280. When a man wanted food or provisions, I suppose he would generally get them advanced to him out of the fish-merchant's shop?-Yes; or any place where it would be most convenient.

6281. But you say that in these bad years, when a man was behind, it was the fish-merchant who carried him through?-It was. They were carried through merely by the agency of the fish-curer.

6282. Did the fish-curer carry them through by giving them money with which to pay their rent?-No; the curers brought in sufficient meal to serve their purposes.

6283. And that meal was sold at the merchants' shops, and put to the account of the men?-Yes.

6284. Was that done with clothing too?-Yes, clothing, and whatever they required to get.

6285. But all that was done by these merchants in the confidence that the men would pay them, if they were able, by the next year's fishing?-No doubt they were repaid in some cases, but in some cases the repayment was very slow. That depended altogether upon whether the times turned out favourable.

6286. Do you know any of the men who were helped through in that way?-I have no doubt I know them, but I have no interest to say much about them. I don't want to enter into that matter at all. I am getting well advanced in life, and I don't want to speak about my neighbours' affairs.

6287. Were there many of your neighbours who were carried through in that sort of way?-There were a great many of them who required supplies.

6288. Did it take a great many years to carry some of them through, and to enable them to pay up what had been advanced to them?-I cannot tell how their accounts may be standing at present.

6289. Then you only suppose that some of them may have been able to pay up their debt in the course of the following year?-I know they did so; and I might take myself as a specimen of that.

6290. But you said that you have not required any advance for many years back?-Certainly.

6291. Do you think that within the last ten or fifteen years there have been many men who have required to be carried through in that way?-I don't know. Probably there may have been, but I have not been requiring that for myself.

6292. But you have been speaking about your neighbours, and you say it is an altered time with them?-It is, even within the time you have mentioned.

6293. Do you think some of them, within that time, may not have been able to pay their arrears in the course of next season?-I cannot exactly say.

6294. But you have said so?-Well, it would rather appear so.

6295. You think they may have been so much in debt, that it required more than one year for them to pay it up?-It is very probable that may have been the case.

6296. Have you any boys engaged on the beach?-No.

6297. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; they are always working away at it.

6298. Where do they sell their hosiery?-At different shops.

6299. Do they go to Lerwick with it?-Sometimes.

6300. Are they paid for it in goods?-I don't know. I don't inquire much about it.

6301. Have they got accounts of their own?-Yes; they keep their own accounts.

6302. Do they help you to keep the family?-I am not requiring it. I can keep my wife and myself; and my two daughters knit to provide themselves with what they want. I never inquire whether they get part cash for what they sell or knit.

6303. Do they clothe themselves by their own knitting?-Yes.

6304. Do they never help you to buy provisions for the family at all?-They work very hard at it, but I do not require them to bring any food into the house. I can buy it myself.

6305. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day?-No; I came to Hillswick on an errand to Mr. Anderson's shop, and I heard that the meeting was to take place to-day. Mr. Sutherland also told me about it.

6306. When did you hear about it first?-I can't exactly say. I heard about it some time in the course of yesterday, but I cannot say who told me. I told then that there was to be a meeting on Thursday at the school-house.

6307. Do you not remember who told you?-No.

6308. Were you told about it at Stenness?-Yes; I was told about it in the place where I live.

6309. But you don't remember who first mentioned it?-I do not.

6310. Are you sure you don't remember?-Yes; [Page 155] I can't remember exactly who told me, for I just heard the story among the public.

6311. Was that among the public at Stenness?-Yes.

6312. Was there not some one from Hillswick who brought the news to you?-There may have been, for anything I know.

6313. Was it some of your own family who told you-No. I heard it down at the station, where the boats come in from the sea.

6314. Was Mr. Sandison there?-Arthur Sandison was at Stenness on Tuesday.

6315. Did you see him then?-I did. There were some affairs that he and I had to manage, because he is Mr. Anderson's factor in summer, and I have to do with curing fish for Mr. Anderson in winter.

6316. Did Sandison tell you about the meeting?-No.

6317. Are you sure of that?-Yes.

6318. Did you not speak to him about it on Tuesday?-I don't remember whether we said much about that, or anything about that at all. There are various things that I may have exchanged words about with him which I don't remember.

6319. Then you may have been speaking to him about it on Tuesday?-No; I had not heard any word about it on Tuesday.

6320. Are you able to say that Sandison did not speak to you about it on Tuesday?-I don't recollect him speaking about it at all.

6321. Do you swear that you did not speak to Sandison on Tuesday about this meeting?-I would not be safe to answer, because my memory might not hold good. Recollection gets short when age comes on, and I would not care for swearing to that.

6322. You say it was only yesterday that you heard about the meeting?-Yes.

6323. Can you swear you did not hear of it before yesterday?-I swear that I don't recollect of hearing about it before yesterday.

6324. Is it possible you may have been speaking to Sandison about it?-I may have done so; but if I did, I have completely forgotten about it.

6325. Do any of your family work at kelp?-Yes; my daughters work at it.

6326. What do they get for that?-I suppose the price varies.

6327. Do they gather the sea-weed and make the kelp themselves, and sell it?-Yes.

6328. What do they get for it per cwt.?-I cannot tell. I think the price is £4 or £4, 10s. per ton; but I am not very sure.

6329. Do you know how that is paid to them?-They are paid in cash if they ask for it.

6330. But they have accounts of their own?-Yes.

6331. Who do they sell it to?-I think they sell it to Mr. Anderson.

6332. And it will be settled for when they settle their accounts?-I believe so.

6333. Do you know if there is any difference in the price of kelp, according as it is paid in goods or in cash?-I don't know, for I have never inquired about that.

6334. You said that a number of your neighbours had been carried through by the fish-merchant when they were in arrear from the badness of the season, and you also said that you knew a great number who had been so carried through?-Yes, a good many.

6335. Have you any objection to tell me their names?-I don't know whether I could call their names to recollection.

6336. I asked you to tell me their names in private, and you objected to do so; but I now ask you upon your oath whether you remember the names of any such men?-I don't think I could tell any of their names now. I would know their names quite well at the time when they were getting what they were requiring, but I cannot name any of them now.

6337. Is that because you don't remember them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, Mrs. MARY HUGHSON, examined.

6338. Are you the wife of Andrew Hughson, a fisherman and tenant here?-Yes; he is a tenant to Mr. Gifford on the Busta estate.

6339. Where do you live?-At Hillswick.

6340. Is your husband a fisherman?-He is a day labourer for the most part, and does land-work. He has been at the fishing, but not lately.

6341. Is he too old to go to the fishing now?-No; but he has been used to work on the land.

6342. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Very little.

6343. Do you knit any at all?-I knit for the family.

6344. Don't you sell your hosiery?-I have not sold much here. It is not very long since we came from Lerwick.

6345. Did you use to sell it there?-Sometimes.

6346. Were you always paid for it in goods?-Yes.

6347. Did you want to get cash for it?-No, I never asked cash.

6348. Do any of your daughters knit hosiery here?-Yes; and they sell it in Lerwick, as they were born there.

6349. Do they always go to Lerwick with it?-No; they sometimes sell it to Mr. Anderson at Hillswick.

6350. Do they always get goods for it?-Yes.

6351. Do they want cash?-They don't ask for it; it is not the custom.

6352. Are they quite content to take the price in the goods they want?-I suppose so.

6353. Do they also work at kelp?-Yes, in some way, we all work at kelp.

6354. How do you sell it?-We get 4s. 6d. per cwt. for it from Mr. Anderson.

6355. How are you paid for it?-We are paid in whatever we may ask for, in meal or tea, or goods of any kind.

6356. The way in which the kelp trade is carried on is, that you gather the kelp yourselves, and burn it and sell it?-Yes.

6357. Have you to pay for the privilege of gathering it?-We pay nothing.

6358. Can you sell it to any person you like?-There is no person buying it here except Mr. Anderson.

6359. How do you settle about your kelp? Have you an account in Mr. Anderson's books?-We get what we want, and pay for these goods with the kelp, and then anything we take out additional goes into the account for another year.

6360. Do you only settle once a year?-Yes.

6361. Do you always get 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it?-Yes; I got 5s. per cwt. some years ago, but the price is lower now.

6362. How long, in the course of the year, do you work at the kelp?-We work at it while the season is dry-from Whitsunday till the 1st August.

6363. During that time how many cwts. will you and your daughters gather?-Some years less, and some years more. We will sometimes have about £2 worth.

6364. That will be about half a ton?-Yes.

6365. Did you take the price of that in goods?-We took some part of it in clothes, and some part in meal or tea, or just what we required of money articles.

6366. What do you mean by money articles?-Groceries, or meal or bread, or anything of that kind.

6367. Why do you call them money articles?-Because it is not often that they are got for hosiery or anything of that sort.

6368. Is it a common way of speaking here, to call groceries money articles because they are not given for hosiery?-Tea is sometimes given for hosiery, and bread and meal. They will give a certain quantity of these money articles for hosiery if they are asked for.

6369. Is there a less price given for the hosiery if it is paid in money, or in money articles?-I don't know; I never asked or received money, for hosiery either here or elsewhere.

[Page 156]

6370. Is there a different price for kelp according as it is paid in money or in goods?-I have heard it said that it is 4s. in money, or 4s. 6d. in goods.

6371. Have you always got the price of it in goods?-Yes.

6372. Did you never get money for your kelp at all?-No; I never asked money, and I never got it.

6373. When is the kelp settled for?-We settle for it when we sell it.

6374. Do you sell it all in a lump at the end, or at different times during the season?-Perhaps we sell it every time we burn it, and we settle for it then.

6375. Do you go to the shop and say how much you have?-Yes. We tell the merchant how much we have, and he takes us in and pays us for it then.

6376. Is there anything marked into a book about it?-Nothing. We get payment for it when we sell it. If we are due anything to the merchant, he takes it off the price, and then we get the balance in whatever way we want.

6377. Do you take the whole value of it at the same time?- Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6378. How do you know whether you are due anything at the time?-We ascertain that from the books.

6379. Is there an account in your name in Mr. Anderson's books?-Yes; and if there is anything over at the end of the season, we get it.

6380. Is it paid to you in cash at the end of the season?-Yes; if there is anything due at the end of the season, we get it in cash.

6381. Have you ever got any cash from him at the end of the season?-I never asked it, because I just cleared off with him; and perhaps there was nothing due to me.

6382. Do you think you would be any better if you were paid in cash?-I don't know. I am getting so far on in years, that it is not much cash I would have to get now.

6383. Do you and your daughters agree to keep the same account?-Yes; the account is generally in my name.

6384. Who does your husband work for?-He has been at the fishing, and he has been doing land-work for different people. He was working last summer to an Orkney man, who was over here at the building of the church.

6385. Does he work at farm-work, or how?-He just works at day-work, or lime-work, or anything he can get.

6386. Is he a stone-mason?-He is just a day labourer; he is not a mason.

6387. Do you keep an account at the shop at Hillswick for all your provisions and all the soft goods you want?-I have no account there just now.

6388. But you say that you are paid for your kelp by being settled with in an account?-Yes; we are paid off then for what is due to us, and there is no other account kept until the following year.

6389. You say you have never asked to be paid in money: is it all the same to you whether you are paid in money or in goods?-It is all the same.

6390. Do you swear that it is all the same to you?-It has been the custom to pay in goods, and there is no other place we could go to where we could get the money, besides if we got the money, we would just give it back into the shop that was handiest.

6391. Did you tell any person that you were afraid to come here today?-No, I was not afraid to come.

6392. Did you get any advice from any person about speaking the truth when you came here?-No.

6393. Are you sure about that?-I came to speak the truth when I swore to do it.

6394. But before you came, did you say anything to any one about being afraid to come, and were you advised to speak the truth?-I know to speak the truth.

6395. But did you say anything to any person about being afraid to come here?-I cannot recollect. I said to Mr. Sutherland that I wondered there were no other women asked to come besides me because there are plenty in the place. Mr. Sutherland asked me if I got money for anything; and I said I never did, and that I never asked it either for knitting or for kelp. I told him that if I had asked it I did not know what might have been done; but I never did ask it, and Mr. Anderson knows himself that I never asked money for knitting. But when I was asked to come here, I was nowise afraid to come and tell the truth.

6396. Did you say to any one that you did not like to come, for fear of the merchant?-No, I did not say I was afraid for the merchant.

6397. What did you say about the merchant?-I said I did not know why other people should not come as well as me, and that I wondered why no other women were summoned but myself.

6398. Did Mr. Sutherland advise you to speak the truth when you come, and not be afraid?-I spoke to Mr. Sutherland, and told him I did not know where I had to come.

6399. Did Mr. Anderson speak to you about coming here this morning? Did you see him to-day?-Yes, I saw him, and I spoke to him here.

6400. What did he say to you?-Mr. Anderson told me to bring my pass-book, whatever state it was in; but it has not been used for some years.

6401. Was that it pass-book for the kelp?-Yes, it was it pass-book for the goods that were used for the family.

6402. Had you a pass-book some years ago?-Yes; it is in the house.

6403. But you don't enter your purchases in that pass-book now?-No.

6404. Do you generally buy what you want at Mr. Anderson's shop?-Yes.

6405. What do you buy there?-Meal or tea, or whatever I am needing.

6406. How do you pay for that? Do you pay in money?- Sometimes in money and sometimes in knitted things or in work which my husband does.

6407. Does your husband work for Mr. Anderson?-Sometimes.

6408. When he works a day's work to him, does he get his money for it, or is it put down in the account?-It is put down in the account.

6409. But you said you had no account?-Well, I have no account.

6410. Has your husband an account?-Yes; when I said I had no account, I meant that I had no account for kelp and hosiery, but there is an account in my husband's name.

6411. And when he works for Mr. Anderson, his day's work is put down in the account?-Yes.

6412. What does he work at?-Stone-work, or any other kind of house-building.

6413. Is that account settled in money or goods?-In goods. I don't believe he has ready money to get; he is due something.

6414. Is he generally due something?-Yes; he has been due something for a while.

6415. Is it generally for Mr. Anderson that he works?-Only sometimes.

6416. When he works for other people, is he paid in money?- Yes; when he works for Mr. Sutherland, or any man who has no shop, he gets ready money.

6417. But if he works for any one who has a shop, is he paid in goods?-He does not work for any one who has a shop, except Mr. Anderson.

6418. And he is not paid in money for that because he is due Mr. Anderson an account?-His work is put into the account, and he gets what he needs for the house.

6419. How many years has he been in that position?-I cannot say; I have not been settling for him.

6420. Has he been working in this neighbourhood for a number of years?-Yes; we came here from Lerwick about 1858.

6421. When did you begin to get into debt?-I cannot say, because my husband was at the fishing then.

6422 Is it long since he got into debt?-It is some years; but I cannot say how many, because I have not been settling his account.

[Page 157]

6423. Is his account settled every year?-Yes.

6424. At what time?-About Martinmas or the 1st November, just at the time when the fishermen are settled with.

6425. Do you know that there is generally a balance against your husband at the end of the year?-Yes.

6426. How much will that balance be?-I cannot say.

6427. Although there is that balance, you can still get what you want from the shop in the way of provisions or clothing?-Yes; when he is working for Mr. Anderson.

6428. Is he at liberty to work for any person here who will give him the highest wage?-Yes.

6429. There is no interference with him in respect to that?-No.

6430. Then it was your husband's pass-book that Mr. Anderson referred to when you came here today?-Yes; I told him I did not have it, but he said I should have brought it.

6431. But it is a good many years since anything was put into that pass-book?-It is.

6432. Is it your fault that the things were not entered?-He was not working for Mr. Anderson for some time about the time when the book was stopped. We were buying our meal and other things at some other place and we were not keeping regular accounts then.

6433. Why did you not put your things into the pass-book when you began again to deal at Hillswick? Could you not be bothered?-I don't know.

6434. Did you ask for a pass-book then?-No.

6435. Is your husband here?-No; he is off fishing at the long lines to-day.

6436. Is he one of a boat's crew there?-Yes.

6437. How many are there in that boat's crew?-I think there are four.

6438. Have they gone to fish on their own account?-Yes; they are just trying to get some fish for the house.

6439. He is not going to sell them?-No; he has not been in the habit of doing that.

6440. Are all the fish he catches in winter used for your own house?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, EUPHEMIA PETERSON, examined.

6441. Do you live at Hillswick with your father and mother?- Yes.

6442. Is your father a fisherman?-Yes.

6443. Has he a bit of land?-Yes.

6444. Do you sometimes knit?-Yes; it is not very much I knit; the most of it is for my father and brother.

6445. Do you sometimes sell your knitting?-Sometimes.

6446. Where do you sell it?-At a place called Hillyard, on the other side of Roeness Hill, to Laurence Smith.

6447. How are you paid for it?-I get perhaps 16d. or 18d. for a spencer.

6448. Do you get that in money?-No; in goods.

6449. What kind of goods?-Cotton.

6450. How many spencers will you take to Mr. Smith at a time?- Sometimes I only take one. I had three spencers with me the last time I went, at 16d. apiece.

6451. That was 4s. What did you get for that?-I bought 41/2 yards of white cotton; nothing else.

6452. Was that all you were to get for the 4s., or are you to go back again?-No; I just got it all in cotton.

6453. You had not an account there?-No.

6454. Was it common white cotton you got?-Yes.

6455. Do you remember what was the price of it per yard?-I don't remember.

6456. How long is that ago?-It is about three weeks ago, or perhaps more.

6457. Was the cotton a thing which you wanted at the time?-Yes.

6458. What did you do with it?-I made petticoats and other things with it.

6459. Was it fine cotton?-It was sheeting cotton.

6460. Do you never get money for your knitting at any time?-No; I never asked money for it.

6461. Do you knit with your own worsted?-Yes.

6462. Do you make the worsted yourself out of the wool of your own sheep?-Yes.

6463. Do you work at kelp?-I have been at it three times, but I am not working at it now.

6464. Did you sell the kelp yourself?-No. I wrought last with Maria Sandison, and we got 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it from Mr. Anderson.

6465. Were you paid by Mr. Anderson for the kelp you had made, or did Maria Sandison get the money for you?-She got it.

6466. Then you don't know how the price was settled?-No.

6467. Did you get money for your share of it?-Yes. I got 2s. 6d. one time; at another time I got 3s.; and I don't recollect what I got the other time.

6468. Did you get that money from Maria?-I got a line for it. I did not get any money, but I got goods for the line.

6469. I thought you said you got money?-They will give money if we ask for it, but I did not ask for the money.

6470. What did you ask for?-I took goods for it-cotton.

6471. Did you want the cotton?-Yes.

6472. Did you get the money from Maria Sandison?-No. She gave me a note, and I took it to the merchant.

6473. What was the note?-Just a bit of paper with some writing put down upon it.

6474. Was it signed by anybody?-It would be signed by the shopkeeper.

6475. And you took that to the shop and got what you wanted?- Yes.

6476. How much did you get?-I don't remember.

6477. How long ago is that?-I don't remember.

6478. Did you ever get any money for your kelp at all?-I never got any money; I never asked it.

6479. Why do you say that you never asked it?-Because I was just needing the cotton, and I took it.

6480. But why do you say that you never asked for it? Do you mean that you would have got it if you had asked?-Yes; I might have got it.

6481. How do you know?-There are some who have got it when they asked for it, but I never did.

6482. Do most of the women get money for their kelp?-I cannot say.

6483. What does your father do with his eggs?-He sells them.

6484. Have you a great quantity of eggs to sell?-Yes; in summer we have a good many.

6485. How many will you have in a week?-I cannot say.

6486. Do you generally take them to sell?-Sometimes.

6487. How many will you take at a time?-Perhaps a dozen or half a dozen.

6488. What do you get for them?-We sometimes get 6d. a dozen, but we have got 7d. We got that in the past summer.

6489. Do you get money for that?-We never take it in money; we just take in goods.

6490. Is that the way all the people hereabout do with their eggs?-I think it is the way that most of them do with them.

6491. Where do you take them to?-Sometimes to Mr. Anderson's, and sometimes to Laurence Smith's.

6492. Is Smith's farther away than Anderson's?-Yes; it is about two miles from us.,

6493. Do you get the same price from both places?-I got a halfpenny more from Laurence Smith.

6494. But the price was paid to you at both places in goods?-Yes.

6495. What kind of goods do you get for your eggs?-I cannot say; sometimes we take tea.

[Page 158]

6496. Do you just get the goods when you go, or is there an account kept?-We just get them when we go. We have no account at all.

6497. Is your father here to-day?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON, examined.

6498. You are a merchant and fish-curer in Hillswick?-I am.

6499. And you are the proprietor of the estate of Ollaberry?-No; I am only tacksman.

6500. Is Ollaberry in Northmavine parish?-Yes.

6501. Your brother, I understand, is proprietor of that estate?- Yes.

6502. Do you carry on business at Hillswick under a firm or in your own name?-In my own name.

6503. I presume the way in which you arrange for the payment of your fishermen is similar to that which prevails in other parts of Shetland-viz. that the fisherman engages to fish for you for the season at the summer fishing, and to receive payment for his fish in winter at the price then current after the sales have been made? -Yes.

6504. Is it the case also that the way in which you keep accounts with your fishermen is that a ledger account is opened in name of each man, in which the entries on one side consist of advances made to him for the purpose of outfit and lines, boat-hire when the boat is not his own, or for the price of the boat if he is buying it by instalments?-Yes.

6505. And on the other side is entered the price of his fish, and anything else that may be due to him by you?-Yes.

6506. Is there any further explanation you desire to make about the way in which these arrangements entered into and carried out between you and your fishermen?-I think that is all, except the inducement I have held out to fishermen to buy their own boats and lines. My practice for several years past has been that when they bought their own boats and lines, and were free of debt, I allowed them 6d. a cwt. extra on their fish.

6507. That is to say, that a fisherman who hires his boat, or one who is paying up the price of his boat by instalments, or who is in debt, is paid for his fish 6d. a cwt. less than one who is not in your books for boat-hire or for the price of his boat?-Yes.

6508. Is that intended as an inducement to a man to get clear of his boat-hire or of debts of that sort?-Yes, it was so intended by me.

6509. How long has that system been in operation?-I think since 1864.

6510. Have many of the fishermen got clear of their debts in consequence of that inducement, so far as you can judge by your experience?-I think so.

6511. You think that system has had a beneficial effect?-I think so, judging from the diminution of the debts. I have taken the last four years, and struck an average with regard to that.

6512. You have made a calculation applying to the last four years, showing what?-Showing the degree in which the fishermen have reduced their debts. I don't have that calculation with me here.

6513. Was it made for your own private use?-Yes. I wanted to see whether I was correct in giving the fishermen that advantage, and I found that the average amount to which the fishermen were in debt was £13 each year.

6514. Was that an average only of those who were in debt?-Yes.

6515. And your calculation showed that the average debt of each fisherman was £13 this year?-Not this year, but taking the average for four years.

6516. I understood it was entered into for the purpose of comparison with the period before the system you have now mentioned was introduced?-No. The calculation I made was for the purpose of satisfying myself whether I was correct in giving that 6d. per cwt. in advance extra.

6517. Then do you find that the fishermen who are in your debt now were indebted to you to the amount of £13 on an average?- Yes.

6518. Are you of opinion that that is a less amount of debt per man than existed before that system introduced?-I am.

6519. Did you enter into any calculation over period of years before the introduction of the system, in order to compare it with the state of matters during the last four years, or have you made that comparison just from your general knowledge?-Just from my general knowledge. I did not make the calculation so accurately for the previous period as for the last four years.

6520. But you are clearly of opinion that the amount of debt before that system was introduced was greater than it is now?-I am clearly of that opinion.

6521. How many of the men do you calculate are now in your debt to that average extent?-I am not able to answer that question exactly.

6522. Can you not give an approximation to the number?-I am afraid not.

6523. How many men do you employ altogether in the ling and cod fishing in summer?-I have no cod fishing,-only ling fishing, in which I think I employ about 120 or 130 men.

6524. Is that at Hillswick, or at all your stations?-At Hillswick.

6525. But you have stations at other places?-Hillswick is the business place, but we have fishing stations at different places-at Roeness Voe, Hillyard, Hamnavoe, and Stenness.

6526. Have you none at Ollaberry?-Only in winter time. We get some fish there in winter-principally small fish, cod, and some ling.

6527. You said that you don't send men to the cod fishing?-No.

6528. How do you distinguish between the cod fishing proper and the cod which you get in winter?-There are different names for the different kinds of fishing. The Faroe fishing is a different thing from the home fishing.

6529. But some people subdivide the summer fishing into more than one kind?-There is cod fished for in the voes near the coast during the winter, but they are generally a smaller size than the Faroe cod.

6530. Is that what you call the winter fishing?-Yes.

6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to the Faroe fishing.

6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?- Yes.

6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and what they get are thin and of an inferior quality.

6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes.

6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in November or December?-Yes.

6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear.

6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your debt?-I don't think so.

6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them; there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time with them when their children are small.

6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter payments could be introduced in your business which might encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful consideration.

6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159] system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?- Yes.

6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred to you?-I don't think there is any other.

6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes by the men themselves.

6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once, any more than they would have done if it had been put to account.

6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men require it.

6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish.

6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they were really in necessity for something.

6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes.

6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?- Yes.

6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes.

6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that kind.

6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him.

6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from us.

6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general practice.

6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation whatever.

6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any difference in the way in which you would deal with him afterwards?-None whatever.

6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes.

6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive business also.

6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes.

6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a larger business than mine.

6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes.

6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe.

6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr. Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account.

6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea.

6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I believe it is.

6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say, to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station.

6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think it has ever been acted upon.

6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They generally take that liberty.

6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are weighed by your factor?-Yes.

6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies. Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear off their little bits of accounts there.

6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his present needs?-Yes.

6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps £5 or £6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season.

6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as one might suppose?-No.

6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not; although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I wished to do so.

6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present.

6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the land?-I think that is understood.

6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their bargain, but I think it is understood.

6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of, do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not very sure about that.

6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly.

6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that.

6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no objection to deal in that way.

6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think that is quite right.

6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which might not come my way.

6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?- Yes; in cattle and other things.

6584. Do you send them south?-Yes.

6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so.

6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?- Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them through the parish.

6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?- That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent, and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my debt.

6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak to it positively.

6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?- Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson & Co.

6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.

6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I do.

6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes.

6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except the fishing stations I have already mentioned.

6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish at Stenness and at Hamnavoe.

6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No.

6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that you receive fish in winter?-Yes.

6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed by you?-Probably between 50 and 60.

6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I think scarcely so many.

6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a woman's book?-Yes.

6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes.

6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you are asked?-Certainly.

6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to £10 for time summer and harvest.

6603. Do those to whom you pay £10 have charge of the curing?- Yes; I have given the whole range.

6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has charge of the curing.

6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?- Yes.

6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the end of the year?-No.

6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that.

6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with the other people employed by you?-Yes.

6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes.

6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We generally strive not to allow them to get into debt.

6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year: is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are others again who have money to get.

6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive.

6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at the beginning?-Yes.

6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any one I can get.

6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always been hitherto.

6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work for you in the same employment next year?-No.

6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that.

6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing.

6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails among the people generally.

6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It is quite possible.

6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me.

6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free.

6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year, remain in your service and work on until their account is paid up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority.

6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think.

6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger wages?-I think they often clear off their debt.

6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not. It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy.

[Page 161]

6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf; perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind; but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that.

6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?- Yes.

6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on that subject?-Yes.

6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go. 4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay for it.

6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes.

6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods

6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way

6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various shops round about where they could go to.

6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference on it for several years.

6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least at Hillswick.

6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate.

6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also.

6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except yourself?-No; that is quite understood.

6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?- Yes; 15s. per ton.

6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have brought your women's book to show how that business is conducted?-Yes.

6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always.

6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?- There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay cash for hosiery, but to give goods only.

6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on the hosiery?-Yes.

6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery.

6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where we can get it sold.

6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not through Lerwick merchants?-Yes.

6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to them?-No.

6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes.

6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be, on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes, that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many cases.

6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted cash for that, we would give it.

6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes.

6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell.

6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so.

6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No.

6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes, they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery.

6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt with?-It is entered to her account.

6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes.

6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books.

6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of years?-Yes, very often.

6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts are entered?-Yes.

6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries.

6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft goods?-No; not the same value.

6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is no agreement of that sort.

6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just give them to her.

6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in soft goods?-Not exactly the same value.

6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to her at a higher price?-Yes.

6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell them to a cash customer?-Yes.

6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes.

6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes.

6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters would be simpler and more convenient for all parties concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my shop or to some other shop with it for her goods.

6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might.

6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her gain would be.

6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods.

6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite distinct.

6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No.

6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it could be enforced against him.

6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe herself with. It is all the wages she gets.

6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?- [Produces women's book]

[Page 162]

6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes.

6681. I see that some women make home-spun tweed?-Yes

6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes.

6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if required.

6684. But at a cash price?-Yes.

6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes.

6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She wanted meal, I think, and some other goods.

6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is brisk.

6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes.

6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There may be some of them there.

6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter.

6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?- What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger.

6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is no more trace of it.

6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very much the same.

6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?- Yes.

6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of them, or they are settled for at the time in goods.

6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea.

6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I have not.

6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn that that was done, even if it was the case.

6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth, and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time, is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally.

6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so much in goods?-Yes.

6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the party to whom they were given?-I think so.

6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not; because we know all the people, and they could not impose on us in that way.

6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss. If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own family, we would naturally suppose there was something suspicious about it.

6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?- Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is not very much practised in our shop.

6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward.

6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry.

6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately. When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that understanding has not been acted upon.

6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them.

6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so.

6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is nothing that I am aware of.

6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I am.

6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A good many of them do.

6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their account?-Yes, very frequently.

6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much upon their own wishes.

6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally.

6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes.

6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had not paid for.

6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No.

6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes.

6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for shop goods?-I think not.

6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was standing unpaid for in my books.

6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of which the money was given.

6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think there was one man who said something about it at one time; but after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about it.

6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats.

6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so.

6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so much for building a boat.

6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think we generally pay £3 for the work on a six-oared boat.

6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat, does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally has an account running.

6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build boats for me afterwards.

6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who work at nothing else?-Yes.

6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes.

6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No.

6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes.

6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building more than one at a time.

6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes.

6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family.

6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may be others that we intend to have short accounts.

6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is nothing entered that is due to them?-No.

6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No.

6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes.

6741. It is a large book?-Yes.

6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed in fish-curing?-Yes.

6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No; their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are paid right off.

6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the book.

6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until they got it squared off, and then it was entered.

6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I fancy it was just paid off at the time.

6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and December last amounted to £1006.

6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year; but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid £1811 in cash, and in 1870 I paid £2040. I think the highest I paid to one man this season was £24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement.

6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him.

6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind.

6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?- There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for leases and have not got them.

6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it.

6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the necessity granting leases.

6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not granted.

6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent would be raised if a lease were granted.

6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think so, although I could not name them just now.

6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?- Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property, I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to Anderson & Co. or to me.

6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?- There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too.

6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many.

6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at the Faroe fishing?-No.

6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor.

6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held to belong to the landlord.

6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland.

6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land much who is employed for four or five months in the year fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way.

6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have never been aware of any case where that has been done.

6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your own hands?-Yes.

6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page 164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements, either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease.

6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen years.

6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added to their cultivated ground.

6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement to them?-I would fancy so.

6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to make?-I think not.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON, examined.

6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there.

6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick from Mr. Gifford.

6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar at present.

6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for him. I have been fishing for him two years now.

6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson.

6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without supplies for my family, I went to another man.

6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to work on either: I had no boat.

6779. What was the amount of your debt?-£17, 9s. 5d.

6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you supplies?-Yes.

6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time, during the fishing season.

6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes.

6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-£17, 9s. 5d. was the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the season out, and left him when the season was done.

6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes.

6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I was due him £17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it.

6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he stopped the supplies?-No.

6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes.

6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have been.

6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No.

6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from him.

6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet.

6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer, when I left the town.

6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence was to give me notice but I have got none yet.

6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better.

6795. But was the debt really due for which you were summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not.

6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies of my account.

6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account for nine years.

6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?- It was always increasing.

6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick.

6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned.

6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for them sometimes, but not every year.

6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I got none until I got the whole at one time.

6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them.

6804. Were you just put off?-Yes.

6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been a little due before that, but it was very little.

6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in.

6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes.

6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to pay for them.

6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d. per line for new lines when they are ready for sea.

6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about £8 or £10?-I never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be. There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think 2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The price varies at different times.

6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for the season.

6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year.

6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that.

6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes.

6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies that I got.

6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No.

6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No.

[Page 165]

6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?- I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man; but very likely there are some who have been in the same position.

6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the whole time.

6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive.

6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor.

6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family.

6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it.

6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a cautioner, but the money I did not have.

6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one.

6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a cautioner.

6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the debt always increased.

6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault. As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea.

6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat for that season.

6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From Laurence Smith, the man I fish to.

6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with him two years now.

6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little.

6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good; but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not always equal in the same year.

6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store.

6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes.

6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr. Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the same at the one place as at the other.

6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if we were dealing there.

6838. Have you tried it there?-No.

6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr. Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the twelvemonth.

6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to supply his customers.

6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is generally the way in which they take there.

6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think they are obliged to do it.

6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then, of course, they don't need to ask money from him.

6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes.

6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr. Smith) did not have the things I wanted.

6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for Mr. Smith.

6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have, then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from another.

6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr. Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and to purchase it.

6849. Did you often do that?-Not often.

6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes.

6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and has not done much to it.

6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things that we were requiring for ourselves.

6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes.

6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house: soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way.

6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose she never asked anything else for it.

6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by your daughter?-They are generally sold by her.

6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She has no book. They are generally paid for at once.

6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him.

6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of fish as they came ashore.

6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I fished to him.

6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got cash.

6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166] several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had delivered so many fish.

6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.

6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back with the line, we got anything we required for it.

6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes. The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON, examined.

6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.

6867. Do you live there?-Yes.

6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for the last two years.

6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr. Smith.

6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.

6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.

6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.

6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man sometimes did not have it to get.

6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other years I was a good bit behind.

6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that was what made me shift from man to man.

6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted twice because I was in debt.

6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I cannot tell how long it is ago.

6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr. Williamson.

6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.

6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.

6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it with.

6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.

6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.

6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?- Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him, although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and no copy of my account.

6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.

6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.

6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.

6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies, either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.

6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.

6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?- No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.

6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been fishing for him.

6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know yet what I am to get.

6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear with him.

6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not much-a mere trifle.

6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with, either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.

6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with him.

6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never got.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON, examined.

6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I am.

6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for two years.

6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.

6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In 1868.

6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.

6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.

6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished for him.

6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted it?-No.

6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.

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