Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 6 of 6)

Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 6 of 6)

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’ll just go over it again as a matter of record. I asked you there, “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon,” and you explained that at two different times and that once it was in the club with some people and customers, and another time it was outside the club, and when we bring out other than those, was there any other time you hit anybody with a weapon?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You don’t recall any other time, is that correct, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I thought I said two of them—and I thought it meant with my fists.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, I meant with a weapon, when you actually hit someone with an implement in your hand.

Mr. RUBY. You thought I was feminine, didn’t you, Chief? Why did you lock me up in that tank? [Addressing Chief Jailer Holman.]

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, when I asked you, “Do you have any sisters?” I asked that in the plural—you have more than one sister?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. You have several sisters?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. How many sisters do you have?

Mr. RUBY. Four.

Mr. HERNDON. Did anything in particular come to your mind when I asked you that question?

Mr. RUBY. No—not like that other question.

Mr. HERNDON. What question?

Mr. RUBY. The one about “Have you ever been married?”

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I recall.

Mr. RUBY. Do I sound like a man with an unsound mind to you?

Mr. HERNDON. As I said before, Mr. Ruby, I’m not qualified to answer that question.

Mr. RUBY. Oh—oh.

Mr. HERNDON. You have been cooperative as far as answering my questions and proceeding with the examination.

(At this point Mr. Specter left the room and shortly thereafter Messrs. Alexander and Tonahill returned to the room.)

Mr. HERNDON. We can proceed and move pretty fast as soon as Mr. Specter comes back. Just sit and relax. Would you like me to take any of these things off?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you comfortable?

Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask me any more questions? Do you want to go through that stuff there?

Mr. HERNDON. I think I had better wait for Mr. Specter to be here. I don’t want to proceed without him. Can I get you a drink of water?

Mr. RUBY. No. Can we talk about certain things?

Mr. HERNDON. I suggest you wait until Mr. Specter returns.

Mr. RUBY. Is there anything on your mind, Bill, off the record?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I think with that Cuban thing cleared up and with an opportunity to answer a question on that——

Mr. RUBY. How about the underworld?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, he’s going to ask you that, if he hasn’t already.

Mr. RUBY. There were a lot of phone calls, as you recall. I’m sure you know that and there should be a specific way to ask me—“What was the purpose of all those calls?”

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you see, that wouldn’t record on the machine. The question would have to be, “Did any telephone calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but still, when you have so many calls, you still want to know why you called people.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, all your telephone calls were either business or personal, weren’t they?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right, and the other question you asked about Oswald—you know?

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No. How about my trip to Havana?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Has that been asked yet?

Mr. HERNDON. That hasn’t been asked.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did your trip to Havana have any connection with the shooting of Oswald, however remote?”

Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had any business dealings—I want them to know my relationship.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Have you ever had any political or business connection with Castro or Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s a good question. Or, why did I make that trip to Havana?

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana personal or business?” I think that’s overlapping that Cuban deal.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but here’s the thing. When people ask me—they say, “Jack, you went to Havana, Cuba” and I say, “I went there for a vacation.” They say, “How long did you stay?” When I say, “8 days,”—you somehow have got to answer specifically that it was a vacation, because a person can be very evasive and say he went for a vacation but yet had other dealings there.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana purely for vacation and pleasure?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s right.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, my memory is just vague—you’ve never been to Mexico?

Mr. RUBY. I never have been to Mexico, but Bill, you know a lot of questions to ask me, I’m sure you know, that I’d like to get cleared up.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you never have been interested in politics, as far as I know?

Mr. RUBY. What I was doing down at that News Building—what was I doing down there Friday—I want that question asked.

(At this point Mr. Specter returned to the room.)

Mr. TONAHILL. That’s kind of a belabored question, Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Joe, you don’t believe that.

COURT REPORTER. I want to be sure I heard Mr. Ruby’s answer to Mr. Alexander’s question a little while ago?

Mr. RUBY. You want to hear that again?

COURT REPORTER. I didn’t quite hear your answer to Mr. Alexander’s question, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Oh, you’re taking down what I’m saying? I didn’t know you were taking that down.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we’re taking everything down.

Mr. RUBY. Oh—well, give me the question again.

COURT REPORTER. This was when Mr. Alexander asked you, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?” and what was your answer to that question?

Mr. RUBY. No.

COURT REPORTER. Thank you.

Mr. RUBY. Are you putting down the questions I’ve been asking myself?

COURT REPORTER. Yes; everything you’ve been saying.

Mr. RUBY. Voluntarily—correct?

COURT REPORTER. Oh, yes. Just like you say them.

Mr. RUBY. Okay.

Mr. SPECTER. We are putting it down in the record, Mr. Ruby, just like you’re saying it.

Odell, can you bring me up-to-date, I’ve been out of the room.

COURT REPORTER. Mr. Alexander has been asking him certain questions that might be asked about——

Mr. RUBY. About that Havana, Cuba trip.

COURT REPORTER. And had he been to Mexico, and had he been in politics, and Mr. Alexander said to his knowledge he had not been interested in politics, and the purpose of his trip to Cuba, whether it was for business or pleasure, and I believe that is what was covered.

Mr. RUBY. The most important question—you haven’t asked me yet—why did I shoot Oswald?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, they can’t ask that kind of question for this machine. They can only ask you—was it for a certain purpose. It has to be a “Yes” or “No” answer.

Mr. RUBY. The point is—if I was carried away emotionally, and because I felt that, it sounds so unbelievable. Why shouldn’t I be asked a question—why—what motivated me to do it?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, answer now the question, “Why did you shoot Oswald?” and then we will turn that around into a question to ask you for a “Yes” or “No” answer.

Mr. RUBY. At the particular moment, after watching television all that——

Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me interject right now, again, as your attorney—I advise you not to answer this question.

Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m sorry, I’ve got to answer it. I’ve got to, because, believe me, it means an awful lot to me. I didn’t want—I felt so carried away—that at that particular time of the great tragedy, I felt somehow in my little bit of a way I could save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of coming back for trial here.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, fine, Mr. Ruby. That’s the same answer to that general question that you gave when the Commission heard your testimony, and we shall phrase that in an appropriate question for the polygraph examination. Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, with our next series, please?

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to rehearse the ones that are prepared?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; just our prepared series, and we will take these in a sequence and we will cover everything else later.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, I’ll go over these for you again, Mr. Ruby, so that you understand the intent of the question and what it means.

“Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Was the Wall Street Journal addressed to a Mr. Bradshaw?”

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, that one, we’re going to have to rephrase. “Do you know if the Wall Street Journal was addressed to Mr. Bradshaw?”

Mr. RUBY. I haven’t read a Wall Street Journal in the longest time—in years, probably.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you wish to keep that question in, Mr. Specter?

Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, was there a man named Bradshaw, your landlord?

Mr. RUBY. No; Houston Nichols was my landlord, but I know a Bradshaw. He used to be in the pinball game machine business.

Mr. TONAHILL. A jukebox man?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; everybody knows him.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his first name, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know, but he owned a liquor store and he’s a pretty successful businessman.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw, dated November 16, 1963, in your car at any time?

Mr. RUBY. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever heard of any such Wall Street Journal having been found in your car?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. We will rephrase that question too. Let’s try this: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw being found in your car?”

Mr. RUBY. No; did they find one somewhere in my car?

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, please, Mr. Herndon.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. How could I—I was incarcerated? Oh, Sunday morning?

Mr. HERNDON. Some people might refer to that as Saturday night.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know I went to bed about 1:30, so I can’t answer that.

Mr. SPECTER. Make that “To your knowledge”——

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends”—do so and so?

Mr. HERNDON. I think in that way you should be able to answer “Yes” or “No”.

“Did you or any of your friends telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Again, I can rephrase that—“To your knowledge—” if you wish?

Mr. SPECTER. Make it—“Did you or any of your friends, to your knowledge, phone the sheriff’s office?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. And then, some of these questions I will ask you again here, such as, “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I understand you did.

I’m going to ask you this question, which will help me, and that is, “In your dealings, Mr. Ruby, as a nightclub operator, at any time have you ever overcharged a customer?” I assume there are some times when you probably are at the cash register, is that correct, and you are handling the transaction of money with customers or with the bills.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by “overcharge”?

Mr. RUBY. We have a very lucrative business in champagne there, the kind of business that—Bill Alexander knows about it—they get merchandise received for what they get. It’s quite lucrative and that’s one way you can survive, I guess.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just simply ask the question, “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll probably ask you questions for your identity, like “Is your name Jack Ruby?” at the beginning of these series.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Let’s see, gentlemen, I believe we’ve gone over all these questions, and I’m going to ask you also as a matter of record on the test—are you tired?

Mr. RUBY. No; as a matter of fact, I’m feeling my best right now.

Mr. HERNDON. You feel all right.

Those are the questions we’re going to ask.

(Reporter’s note: 7:05 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll get this machine to going again, and we will get started on series No. 6. Mr. Ruby, could you sit up a little straighter? When you slouch over like that, I’m not getting the tracing I want on the reading. Now, that’s much better. [At this time Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers.] Look straight ahead again, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. I will let you know when I’m going to start the test, and if you will answer the questions again, simply and truthfully, “Yes” or “No.”

If I come to any one of these that you feel like you are not sure how to answer it and you don’t want to answer it “Yes” or “No,” once again just refrain from talking and we will discuss the question at the end of the series.

Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll remain silent, huh?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; remain silent.

(Reporter’s note: 7:08 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.

“Is your name Jack Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at the Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Are you tired?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends or did you telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning.”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. I think that series is over and I will release the pressure.

(Reporter’s note: 7:10 p.m.)

Mr. RUBY. Are they that important—those questions? I know more important ones than that. Of course—I’m kidding.

Mr. HERNDON. We have some more coming.

Mr. Ruby, has a customer by any chance ever claimed that they were overcharged at your place? Have you ever had any problems along that line?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—we have problems with waitresses and big bills.

Mr. HERNDON. Other than what you told us about the Wall Street Journal, is there anything else that came to your mind with regard to this Wall Street Journal question?

Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, the question you asked me is so foreign to me——

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you are completely unaware of the Wall Street Journal situation?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how it ever came to be there.

Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series.

(Reporter’s note: 7:12 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander returned to the room.

Would you now proceed, Mr. Herndon, to the next series, and we’ll go through those as rapidly as you can.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby. I’ll just read these right down the line, and if you have any question, then interrupt me. Otherwise, I’ll just keep going.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”

Mr. RUBY. No—not of late, because of my businesses and my sister was ill and I had to help at both places—I had to run both places.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, If you feel it is proper, you can answer that question.

Mr. RUBY. This was a special occasion, this Friday night—I wanted to go there because of this tragedy happening.

Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. The way I mean that question is—do you attend the synagogue regularly and at every usual service?

Mr. RUBY. Well, yes—on high holidays and when my father passed away, I went there consistently for 11 months; morning and evening.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Now, “that Friday night”—you know the night we’re talking about?

Mr. RUBY. Friday night.

Mr. HERNDON. The night of the assassination?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question—it’s simple and short: “Do you pray?”

Mr. RUBY. Not now, because it’s hopeless. I did.

Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it “Yes” or “No” when the question comes.

Mr. RUBY. Pardon me—I take it back—I do pray. I say certain prayers.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on a Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference?”

Mr. RUBY. Let’s have that again?

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference?”

Mr. RUBY. You mean at the police station? No.

Mr. HERNDON. Just so we have it clear—what we mean here is——

Mr. RUBY. You mean in my possession?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you insert in there—“at the jail”—“did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?”

Mr. ALEXANDER. If you put it in his car or on his person, I think he can answer it better.

Mr. RUBY. No—because I recall when I first said I did, and then I changed it later.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, so you understand what I mean when I say “Did you have a gun with you?” I mean on the person.

I’m going to ask this question which one of the gentlemen recommended, and it is, “Have you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I may have left out certain things because I was a little—I wasn’t as calm as I am now, so in reality, certain things I could have said, I’m sure in my frame of mind now I would be able to do it better, but I told the truth at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we could rephrase it and say, “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I can say that.

Mr. HERNDON. The question will be then, as Mr. Specter put it, “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. Any questions, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Fine; I will proceed.

(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this will be series No. 7.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now left the room.

Mr. RUBY. I wonder why Mr. Tonahill is here. He’s not my attorney. Clayton, is Joe Tonahill representing me?

Mr. FOWLER. Well Jack, in some capacity, I think he is still involved.

Mr. RUBY. Well—yes and no.

Mr. FOWLER. But please don’t worry about it at this time. He is here.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you mind if I tighten the rubber tube on your chest just a slight bit more?

Mr. RUBY. Make it as tight as you want it. I want to get it right.

Mr. HERNDON. No; I don’t want to make it too tight, I want to make it comfortable.

Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Holman). Are you coming to work tomorrow? I don’t know where you’ll find me. How about you, chief?

Mr. HOLMAN. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just breathe naturally and sit up a little bit straighter. That’s good. That’s fine, Mr. Ruby.

(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. [At this point Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers twice.]

I will tell you once again when the test will begin. Answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” Try to sit perfectly relaxed and try not to move. Look straight ahead, if you will, Mr. Ruby.

Did you just have a gas pain or something trouble you?

Mr. RUBY. No; nothing.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, relax. We will now begin.

(Reporter’s note: 7:18 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer these questions truthfully?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes; I do.”

Mr. HERNDON. Just answer the questions “Yes” or “No,” please.

Mr. RUBY. OK.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”

Mr. RUBY. How can I answer that one?

Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you pray?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?”

Mr. RUBY. “No”.

Mr. HERNDON. “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.

Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. Just sit still for a moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move.

(Reporter’s note: 7:21 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. At the beginning of that series, Mr. Ruby, you displayed a little nervousness and a little tension. Perhaps it was the question I asked with regard to the synagogue. Did that upset you in any way?

Mr. RUBY. Because—you’re ashamed to admit you haven’t been going regular—yet, you don’t want to come out with a blunt answer “No”—it makes you sort of an atheist, and I didn’t want to answer it that way, but I do go to the high holidays, but going regular and going to the high holidays are two different ways of going. People that go regular go every Friday night and pretty regular during the week, but my hours were entirely different. I mean—I’m trying to explain that to you.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that’s what I want you to do. Go ahead, sir.

Mr. RUBY. I could say “Yes” and I would be lying to you saying “Yes”. Anyway, the last couple of years—the last year and a half or 2 years have been very tough to me businesswise and I’ve stayed pretty close, outside the high holidays.

Mr. HERNDON. Did that question disturb you in any regard when I asked, “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday——”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Before you went to the synagogue?” You did show some reaction, will you tell me that, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Because I knew that some man in the trial said I did come down there, and naturally, that came flashing into my mind.

Mr. HERNDON. Was this some man at the trial?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Did he testify?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; Mr. John Rutledge. He said I was down there earlier, when I wasn’t—and the association of this man came to my mind. Can you ask me that over again?

Mr. HERNDON. I don’t think I have to, Mr. Ruby. I wanted to get your explanation of why. Did you feel a reaction to that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because it’s like the Wall Street Journal question—when you asked me that. I get nervous too. When they said they found it in my car, there must be some reason that it was found in my car, when I know I never did see this particular paper.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, at this trial Mr. John Rutledge’s testimony conflicted with what you had said, is that correct?

Mr. SPECTER. Not what he said, Mr. Herndon. He didn’t testify.

Mr. RUBY. He testified emphatically—it looked like I was trying to find out who this Oswald was, and if I went down there more than once.

Mr. HERNDON. I see. You did feel the reaction on that question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I think we can proceed on to the next series.

Mr. SPECTER. We’re now at series 8, correct?

Mr. HERNDON. The next series will be 8, correct.

(Reporter’s note: 7:23 p.m.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have returned now.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. We shall continue, and these are questions we want to put to you for this next series.

“Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, is that question too long for you to answer it clearly?

Mr. RUBY. No; no.

Mr. HERNDON. Of course, there are two parts there—the Communist Party or any other group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government—do you understand the question?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; very much so.

Mr. HERNDON. And then I will ask you, “Did you legally change your last name?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you again at the beginning of the test, “Is your last name Ruby?” I’m going to ask, “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close friend is a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close friend is a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase those, Mr. Herndon. “To your knowledge, is any member of your family——”

Mr. HERNDON. Rather than “Do you know——”.

Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you put it stronger—ask me the question without—to my knowledge—the answer is “No”. When you say—to my knowledge—you leave an opening there.

Mr. TONAHILL. Say—“Is any member of your family a member”——

Mr. SPECTER. We will take that and make it categorical—without the prefix.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, I don’t want any opening for any doubt that there is.

Mr. HERNDON. Both those questions I started, “Do you know,”—I’m going to just start the question—“Is any member of your family”—et cetera.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Is that all right with you, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; emphatically.

Mr. HERNDON. Here again, “Is any close friend or any member of your immediate family,”—I will have to change this one. I shall ask the question this way, unless you have reason to object. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I say I know they did——

Mr. HERNDON. Do you have knowledge, in other words?

Mr. RUBY. No; not knowledge—you’re putting me in a spot there. Repeat it.

Mr. HERNDON. Let me ask this question the way I composed it originally. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Meaning—I know they didn’t.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s a very valid point.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase it then—“Did any member of your immediate family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. How do you want that, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. “Did any member of your immediate family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I just had it slightly different. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Is that all right?

Mr. SPECTER. That phraseology is satisfactory.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, there’s one other question here and this one is a little bit long, and we might want to discuss this question so Mr. Ruby will understand it perfectly. “Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family has ever attended a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know that they didn’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase the question, leaving out the “Do you know”——

Mr. HERNDON. So that it will now be, “Did any—et cetera.”

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, the question will read: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Those are the questions, unless Mr. Ruby has some question on them.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander are now out of the room and we may proceed with this series.

(Reporter’s note. 7:28 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this is series No. 8.

All right, Mr. Ruby, I shall now put some pressure in the arm cuff and if you will look straight ahead, sir, and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No,” and I will tell you when I am going to begin asking questions.

The test will now begin.

“Is your last name Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you legally change your last name?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close friend, a member of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. Look straight ahead, please, sir. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will relax, Mr. Ruby, I will release the pressure on your arm.

(Reporter’s note: 7:33 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I know these questions were a little long, but I feel that you got the intent of them all right.

Mr. RUBY. Sure; I did.

Mr. HERNDON. That will complete series No. 8.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that we are now going to take a very short recess, and resume in just a few moments.

Mr. HERNDON. Would you like to take this off just a minute and stand up a little bit, unless you prefer me to leave it on?

Mr. RUBY. All right.

(Reporter’s note: Recess began 7:33 p.m. During the recess Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby conferred out of the hearing of all in the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. It is now 7:55 p.m. and may the record show that we have taken a 20-minute recess and have now reconvened for the last session.

Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask about the phone calls?

Mr. SPECTER. Those are going to be covered, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. I know you are for me, Joe, I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Let us proceed at this point, Mr. Herndon, with the next series of questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right?

Mr. RUBY. Fine.

Mr. HERNDON. We shall then continue. I’m going to read off a good number of questions here, and I’m going to ask them in a series called 9 and a series called 9a.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And I’m not going to interject any of these other minor questions. These are all direct questions and I want to make sure that you understand what they are.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. No. Pardon me—why don’t you say, “Did you ever meet him at the post office or at the club?” Wouldn’t that be good too?

Mr. SPECTER. We have asked you if you ever knew him before, and now we’re focusing on this.

Mr. RUBY. Oh—“How many times did he come up to the club?”—that’s something else. Also, somebody said that they saw Tippit, I, this Mr. Lane stated that he saw Tippit, myself, and Oswald at the club—so go ahead, I don’t want to throw you off.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will add a question there at that point, such as this: “Did you ever meet with Officer Tippit and Oswald at your club?”

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want that “Oswald and” or “or”?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we do. Use “and.”

Mr. RUBY. The first thing about that post office box—how do we know whether it’s really authentic or the man had the box there or not? It could have been placed there at a later date?

Mr. ALEXANDER. It was right, Jack. He had it. I saw the key myself and it had “X” number on the box.

Mr. RUBY. How come it never come out before then? Why didn’t it come out still before that?

Mr. ALEXANDER. It did.

Mr. RUBY. No; it didn’t come out until a long time—until just recently. It just came out about a week ago.

Mr. ALEXANDER. They just didn’t feature it—it was just overlooked. I saw the key that night.

Mr. RUBY. But Bill, I know one thing—I know that box could have been purchased at a later date, after Oswald’s death and could make it look like it’s close to mine; I know that.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, the situation there isn’t really directly germane here.

Mr. RUBY. It looks very bad for me, though, I know that.

Mr. ALEXANDER. No; Jack, I saw the key Friday night.

Mr. SPECTER. We will cover the subject matter here, so you will have a chance under the polygraph examination to cover it.

Mr. RUBY. You probably saw the key, but I know the affiliation with the Government, that you can always get a box at a later date, if you wanted to do that.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, on Friday night that key was photographed, inventoried, and——

Mr. RUBY. What Friday night?

Mr. ALEXANDER. The Friday night of the assassination.

Mr. RUBY. You mean it was known—the number of the box—that Friday night?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. RUBY. Did the public know about it and everybody else?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I’m sure they did.

Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead.

Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed, Mr. Ruby. “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you keep $2,200 in cash on you because you didn’t have a chance to get to the bank?” Is that question clear?

Mr. RUBY. Let me go off the record. This is going to be ad libbing, Miss, so can you hold it off on this? Can you hold it off or do you have to put it down?

COURT REPORTER. Mr. Ruby, you have to ask that man over there—Mr. Specter.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to go off the record, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record at this point.

(Explanation by Mr. Ruby at this point regarding the $2,200 cash item previously mentioned—off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record. Mr. Ruby, that’s a perfectly good explanation, and I think it would be better if we put that on the record as to this point, if it’s all right with you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but it’s too crazy, mixed up, the way I was saying it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, essentially what you’re saying makes good sense. What you’re saying is that you don’t want to have it in a condition where somebody can levy on it and get ahold of it before your creditors got it.

Mr. RUBY. Well. I had the total cash for both clubs, but then, this was Friday night. Now, knowing my payroll at the Carousel runs to $1,600 or $1,400 on a Sunday night, and the Vegas Club on Saturday night because we close Sunday, consequently that money would be absorbed completely in another night or two.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, that makes good sense. I think that in view of what your answer has been, it is preferable for us to put it on the record rather than to have any suggestion that anything that has been off the record is in anyway damaging or that we’re keeping anything off the record that ought to be on the record.

Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to go through that again, now? Do you want me to go through what I said to you now?

Mr. SPECTER. That’s right. Now, Miss Odell Oliver, will you go on the record with Mr. Ruby now, and since Mr. Ruby has made a brief explanation with regard to the last question, and at my suggestion he is willing to put it on the record, and he will now repeat the substance of what he has previously said.

Mr. RUBY. All right. Due to my sister being ill and away from running the Vegas Club, I had in my possession for both clubs for operation, for payrolls and everything else, et cetera, et cetera.

Just a week prior to that I had purchased a safe which I knew it was necessary to have, and we already had—my maintenanceman had built the forms for the safe, and we wanted further information as to where to place this safe in the club where it would be safest where burglars couldn’t get at it. We called a Mr. Joe Cody of the police department to advise us where to place the thing. Consequently the safe had not been placed in cement as yet, and I had been carrying the total amount of cash for both clubs, the total capital, which include my purchases if there were to be any made, and the payroll for both clubs, and any accumulated excise tax money from the beginning of the last quarter for both clubs. So, hence, that money belonged solely to the operation of the Vegas Club and the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, then we will rephrase that question to this and simply state—“Have you now told the truth about why you carried $2,200 in cash?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you have a reason for asking me that—whether that was somebody else’s money or something—yes. All that money is specifically in relationship to the operation of both clubs.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we could rephrase it, “Have you now told the truth concerning why you carried around $2,200 in cash?” and we will cover the substance of the matter in that question.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, you don’t want to leave it in your apartment because somebody might break in, but you feel it’s safe, especially if I’m armed anyway, not that I can handle a gun that well, or whatever it may be, but somehow you feel—it’s true I had the safe installed because I thought that would be safer to put any of my possessions in. In other words, it’s a cash operation. In other words, $2,200 in one week is a good return anyway.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll proceed, Mr. Ruby, if you are ready?

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, by the word “foreign” in those questions, Mr. Ruby, we intend to convey to you—by Russia, by Cuba, or by any other foreign government, so that you may understand the full import of that question.

Mr. RUBY. No—but the whole thing was based on—when was the first time you thought of it—in other words, that Sunday morning, so in other words—well, we’ll get to that.

Mr. HERNDON. “No” is the answer?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I will now rephrase that, if I may. “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union influence?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Officer Tippit?”

Mr. RUBY. This is off the record for a minute, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think it would be unwise for us to go off the record on this question.

Mr. RUBY. Well, all right. There were three Officer Tippits in the police department. I only knew one.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. He’s the one who was slain?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes—Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think he was the one.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer Tippit who was slain?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know him. You see, I know so many officers and there are three Tippits, but I know one Tippit, and which one that is—if I would see him personally and see his physical features and knowing him—of course, I didn’t have time to—I was incarcerated too soon to find out. Actually, the Tippit I knew, who worked at special service in the police department—you know which one I’m talking about, Bill?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes; but that’s not the one.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know this Tippit.

Mr. ALEXANDER. This boy had always been a radio patrolman.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know that I had ever seen this fellow before—I had never seen him before. I may have seen him before but I didn’t know him.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, if I ask a question, “Did you know the Officer Tippit slain?” Can you reasonably answer that truthfully “Yes” or “No”?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I mean—you can answer it without any problem mentally?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s what I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, you are able to answer whether or not you knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I can’t answer “Yes” or “No” and say whether or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to be sure that your last answer is responsive so that we are clear.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I gave the answer “No.”

Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s put it this way—“Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”

Mr. RUBY. Repeat that question?

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you come out of the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”

Mr. RUBY. Not come out of the assembly room—I went to the assembly room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to the assembly room?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On Friday night—in order to get the telephone number of KLIF?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we want to make that clear. We want to make that correction.

Mr. RUBY. Did you know that was part of my story, did you know that?

Mr. HERNDON. The question will be worded, Mr. Ruby, “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s clear and concise for you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your apartment?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. Here again the Officer Tippit is the one we’re talking about that was killed.

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, those are the questions and we will proceed on those.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Let’s proceed with this series.

Mr. ALEXANDER. What was that last question?

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your apartment?”

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have left the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired?

Mr. RUBY. No.

(Reporter’s note: 8:10 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can continue. If we may do so, we can save a little time, I’ll go ahead and ask you about seven or eight questions.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And I’ll just stop so that I can let the pressure off your arm.

Mr. RUBY. Don’t worry about me. I’m in good shape. The point is—I want to get as much in as we can. I don’t want you to miss anything, because there’s a lot of pertinent stuff.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, if you will sit back a little bit higher, and if you will uncross your legs. Take a deep breath.

Mr. RUBY. All right.

Mr. HERNDON. And relax and exhale.

For the record, this will be series 9. If you will look straight ahead and answer these questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” We will now begin.

(Reporter’s note: 8:12 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you do business with Castro-Cuba?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried $2,200 in cash on you?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to stop here a moment, sir, and release the pressure on your arm and you just relax for a moment. Then I shall begin again in a moment.

Mr. RUBY. Okay.

(Reporter’s note: 8:15 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Just relax, Mr. Ruby.

Does your arm feel all right?

Mr. RUBY. Fine—I’m all right.

Mr. HERNDON. I will continue this next series of questions and it will be listed as series 9a.

(Reporter’s note: 8:17 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. We will begin again.

“Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your club?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series. I will release that pressure and you can now relax.

(Reporter’s note: 8:20 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be relaxed and feeling fine.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you ready, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that completes that series.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned to the room.

Mr. HERNDON. Shall I go right into the next series?

Mr. SPECTER. Go right into the series. We just did series 9 and 9a, and we are now going to series 10.

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; we just have a few more questions.

Mr. RUBY. That’s wonderful, except there are a few things that I think you’ve left out.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Mr. Ruby. If you have additional questions you want asked, we will do our best to cover anything additional when we finish.

Mr. HERNDON. Here are the next questions which I would like to ask you, Mr. Ruby, on the next series. Again, I want to make sure that you understand each and every one of them.

“Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything at the time you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Have any members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. Not up to this point; no.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, the question can be answered in your mind either “Yes” or “No”?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you just before you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—so, I’ll say “No.” Oh, I see what you mean.

Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you”——

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. “Just before you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. I realize this is based on your recollection, but if you feel you can answer it “Yes” or “No,” fine.

Mr. RUBY. The trouble is I didn’t hear any sounds of voices—then, I’ve got to say “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. It’s your recollection you don’t recall Blackie Harrison speaking to you just before you shot Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you answered the question “Yes.” Did you say something immediately before you shot Oswald?

Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask that on here and then ask him about that again.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but I would like to cover it in advance. What did you say to Oswald, if you don’t mind?

Mr. RUBY. I said, “You killed my President, you rat”—something like that. “You killed my” or “our President, you rat.”

Mr. SPECTER. I would like then to modify that question, Mr. Herndon. “Did you say anything to Oswald immediately before shooting him, other than, ‘You killed our President, you rat’”? If that’s not too long. I’d like that.

Mr. HERNDON. Well, just let me sit down and take a good look at that question.

(At this point there was a conference between Messrs. Specter, Alexander, and Herndon out of the hearing of others in the room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, would you now read the question to Mr. Ruby as we have modified it after consultation.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, the question will be this way: “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than that what you testified about?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HERNDON. The testifying about was pertaining to those statements that you’ve just told us here a few moments ago. Do you follow me there?

Mr. RUBY. The statement I made?

Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will proceed with the series again.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed with the series.

May the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have left the room.

(Reporter’s note: 8:25 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to begin now, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will uncross your legs and put your feet flat on the floor, please, Mr. Ruby, and are you comfortable?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Will you look straight ahead during the actual asking of the questions.

For the record, this is series No. 10.

(Reporter’s note: 8:26 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I notice during the time—all the time I ask you questions, Mr. Ruby, that you close your eyes. If that’s a way that you can concentrate, that’s perfectly all right.

Mr. RUBY. That’s why—if I were guilty of something or if I were trying to evade something, certainly closing your eyes would be less advantageous for you to cover up something. Do you follow me? In other words, closing your eyes means that I do want to tell the truth.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s what I want you to do—just concentrate on the question alone and you have to make that decision whether you will answer it “Yes” or “No”.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I was trying to cover up anything, I wouldn’t try to get more of a vision of what you’re trying to refer me to.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will look straight ahead now, and sit perfectly still, we will begin, and I will let you know when we’re going to ask the first question.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, I’m trying to be more emphatic with the truth when I close my eyes—more than the truth.

Mr. HERNDON. Would you put your complete left hand on that arm rest—that’s it.

(Reporter’s note: 8:27 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.

“Is your name Jack Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what you’ve testified about?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.” May I interrupt?

Mr. HERNDON. Just sit perfectly still. We will discuss the questions later, Mr. Ruby.

“Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. Ruby (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”

Mr. Ruby (no response).

Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Hanson speak to you just before you shot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. “No.”

Mr. HERNDON. That will conclude that series, and just sit still a moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will let the pressure out. Now, as soon as I shut this off, we will discuss these questions.

(Reporter’s note: 8:30 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. On that series of questions, Mr. Ruby, you failed to respond or answer one or two of these questions, which I’ll give you an opportunity now to make any comment you wish to make about them.

Question No. 5, I asked, “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. RUBY. Well, they’re always exposed to it, so I don’t know how to answer that.

Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you felt it would be difficult for you to say either “Yes” or “No”; is that correct?

Mr. RUBY. That’s right; the same way with Fowler. I know when he’s representing me, he’s putting himself on the spot.

Mr. WOOD. Neither the court reporter nor I got the last name of “Blackie”—exactly.

Mr. HERNDON. I believe I said “Harrison.” That’s the way I had it in my notes, but perhaps you might have gotten the impression I said “Hanson.” You knew who I was talking about, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. That’s the main thing that you knew exactly who I meant.

Mr. SPECTER. I believe you said “Harrison.”

Mr. Ruby, are there any other questions which you would like to be covered with you?

Mr. HERNDON. Excuse me, Mr. Specter, I have one more question here. For my records—he did not respond to question No. 6. If you want, I can go over that and we can discuss that question without any response.

Mr. SPECTER. No; I’d like to discuss that. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have already returned to the room, and I would like to discuss that if it’s all right with you here. Let the record show that we would like to cover that now.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, on that last series, I asked a question, “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” You remained silent, which is one of the instructions I gave you, if you so pleased to do. Would you at this time indicate to me why you wanted to remain silent?

Mr. RUBY. Well, No. 1, this is quite a notorious thing, and don’t forget, it’s just like I specified when Earl Warren was in danger, you know, so he is—in other words, people have a dislike for me, and Mr. Fowler is trying to defend me, and this won’t make him too popular a person—too well liked of a person, I should say.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, you just simply didn’t want to come out with a “Yes” or “No” answer?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I wouldn’t know how to answer that.

Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Specter. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, do you now have any other questions which you would like us to ask you on this polygraph examination?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; “At what time did I first think of wanting—when was the first time it ever entered my mind that I wanted to commit this act?”

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. We asked you that.

Mr. RUBY. You did—because if anything prior to that—in other words——

Mr. SPECTER. No; we asked you that very carefully a number of ways and one way was when Mr. Herndon asked you did you think of it on Friday, and you said “No”; did you think of it on Saturday morning—“No”; did you think of it on Saturday evening—“No”; on Sunday morning “Yes,”—so we’ve covered that very thoroughly.

Mr. RUBY. Have I ever received any monies—we don’t need that, do we, for subversive purposes or anything.

Mr. SPECTER. I think we’ve covered that whole area very carefully.

Mr. RUBY. Now, what about my being present in the News Building that morning? Here—the assassination took place across the street from there?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have covered that when we asked you if you told the truth on your testimony before the President’s Commission, because you went into that on June 7, and that isn’t nearly the central issue as the other specific questions we have asked you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but if I was in a conspiracy, wouldn’t it start off with that point? Oh, yes; they didn’t ask me another question: “If I loved the President so much, why wasn’t I at the parade?” Is that a very important question to ask?

Mr. SPECTER. We have considered those questions and that was when we reviewed the transcript of your testimony, and quite frankly, we have rejected them as being not important.

Mr. RUBY. You have? I see. Now, isn’t it strange—now, I want to tell you something that’s noticeable in this part of the country about the poll tax, and there are a lot of other reasons, maybe. I’m reluctant to buy my poll tax in time, and I don’t recall whether or not—is this all right to go in the record if I speak?

Mr. SPECTER. You may go on the record with any facet you think is important for the Commission to know about.

Mr. RUBY. And yet, it’s strange that perhaps I didn’t vote for President Kennedy, or didn’t vote at all, that I should build up such a great affection for him, when everything points against me. For instance, the parade issue I referred to. How can I answer that and still show my sincerity or my feelings and why I was carried away so emotionally to do something like that, that has put me in such serious trouble?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, there’s no way to put that on the machine other than to ask you if you told the truth in your testimony; and that’s an opinion without concrete facts.

Mr. RUBY. But I don’t remember if I got all the testimony in when Warren was here.

Mr. SPECTER. You testify now as to anything you want to add and we can ask you one question at the end and that will be “Have you told the truth in everything you’ve said here today?” That one question will cover everything you said, so that if any other phase comes to your mind now, let us hear about it.

Mr. RUBY. What I’m trying to bring out is this: It’s—and everyone was very much surprised—why should I be carried away so emotionally to commit the act, and yet knowing how I felt and knowing I know I’m telling the truth, how can we bring that point out that I am not sincere in why I did it?

Mr. SPECTER. We can bring that out with the one general question. Now, is there any other topic you would like to testify about and have us check you on your truthfulness?

Mr. RUBY. Yes—whether or not I was ever mixed up with the underworld here or involved in any crime?

Mr. SPECTER. You’ve been asked that specifically, and you’ve testified about that.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. You see, I’ve been in Dallas 17 years and yet suddenly I get involved in a very serious crime and I was very popular with the police department and a lot of other people, and the irony is—it took a complete reverse of that, because of various suspicions, nature, and so on.

I wonder if you follow what I’m trying to bring out? Maybe there’s something we can cover in that area.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s cover it this way. “Were any of your relations with the police department improper?”

Mr. RUBY. No—you, like doing business or something or other?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes?

Mr. RUBY. No—none whatsoever.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, would that question cover what you had in mind?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Tell us what you had in mind and then we’ll frame the question, because that’s an area.

Mr. RUBY. Whether or not I am of criminal background or whether I’m an honest and sincere person, because all those things came out and suspicions came out that Jack Ruby was involved in this and that and leaves a lot of suspicion as to my background and my character. That’s very vague, but that’s what I’m trying to bring out.

Mr. ALEXANDER. How would this question be? “Are you a police character?”

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent patriotic American citizen?”

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding citizen?”

Mr. RUBY. That’s better—that’s the question.

Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding patriotic citizen?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent American patriotic citizen?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. That can be asked.

Mr. RUBY. That’s very good, because—shall I elaborate on this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I became closely attached to our beloved President when he gave that wonderful speech when we had our problem in Cuba at that time. That was a very tremendous speech and then I followed him on television and in magazines wherever he went—to Ireland and different places.

Now, Joe asked a very good question. In other words, either you are American or you’re half and half or you’re indifferent to the way you feel about your country and how much you love it.

When he stated to me a moment ago, “Are you 100 percent American?”—that’s the way you feel about your country. I don’t know how to state it but first of all, I want to make sure—I’ve got my flags in both colors—that doesn’t show any overt—but inwardly, I’m a very unstable person. I’m very lax in certain details and things, and yet for the emotional feeling and the feeling for giving my life and for loving this country is so great, that I think when you asked me that question, “Are you 100 percent American?” and if I answered the truth, it will greater effect than any other way you can ask me.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we can cover that one in a specific question, in another general question, on whether you have told the complete truth here today. Are there any other topics which you want to cover?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, sir. Has any of the underworld ever contributed money to me for my clubs, or was I put in here as a front for the underworld or things to that effect. I mean—this has a relationship to criminal intent.

Mr. SPECTER. We’ve asked you the question if the underworld had any connection with the shooting of Oswald.

Let me now ask you for the record while you are under oath, whether you were put in here by the underworld?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the underworld contribute in any way to the financing of any of your clubs?

Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any connection or association in any way whatsoever with the underworld during the past 17 years you’ve been in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Never have.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, we’ll ask you in a few moments with Mr. Herndon, whether you’ve told the truth, and that will be covered—that will cover this underworld question.

Mr. RUBY. Just the one question is enough to cover it?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon advises that it is.

Mr. HERNDON. I can ask that question and have it a matter of record.

Mr. RUBY. You see, there are so many things that I know in the minds of the people in Dallas that you’re not concerned with, that maybe I was put here as a front of the underworld and sooner or later they will get something out of me that they want done to their advantage.

Everything I have had financed, my brother Earl has contributed the money for or Ralph Paul, a friend of mine, has loaned me money.

Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, if I can interrupt—on some of these questions you are recently discussing here are more or less in the area of emotions and the area dealing with advance psychology or of a psychiatric nature, and although I can ask them if you so wish, they are questions that don’t necessarily lend themselves to the polygraph technique.

Unless you can specifically break them down to a clearcut question which could be answered truthfully “Yes” or “No,” that involves a specific action or emotion that he can recall in regard to a particular action, then it would not be a good question here.

Mr. SPECTER. I agree with you.

Mr. HERNDON. You see, this 100 percent American type question doesn’t necessarily lend itself to polygraph examination.

Mr. SPECTER. I agree with your conclusion, but what we’re trying to do now is to cover all of the important substantive questions which I think we have. After Mr. Ruby tells me that he is satisfied with what we have covered, I propose to ask the same question of Mr. Fowler and Mr. Alexander and also Mr. Tonahill, so that we will have covered the subject matter. We will do our utmost to be all-inclusive here, so that whatever effect the polygraph can gage as to Mr. Ruby’s truthfulness, we will do so.

Mr. RUBY. Let me put it this way: Here I run a nightclub. I run a nightclub and on Friday this tragic event happens and I get carried away more so than anyone else. Why? Why was I so sick mentally or so carried away?

I immediately replaced my newspaper ads so that I would be closed for those 3 days. This is the ironic part of it, that wouldn’t it be a tremendous hoax, or certain people would probably believe it that way, that here’s a fellow that didn’t vote for the President, closes his clubs for 3 days, made a trip to Cuba, relayed a message from a person—from Ray Brantley—look at circumstantially how guilty I am? If you want to put all these things together? Then, I happen to be down there, which is a million and one shot, that I should happen to be down there at that particular second when this man comes out of whatever it was—an elevator or whatever it was—all these things—plus the fact of the post office box and other rumors that they saw us together at the club—how can we give me the clearance that the ads I put in were authentic, my sincerity, my feeling of emotionalism were sincere; that that Sunday morning I got carried away after reading the article, a letter addressed to Caroline and then this little article that stated Mrs. Kennedy might be requested to come back and face the ordeal of the trial?

Also, if there was a conspiracy, then this little girl that called me on the phone in Fort Worth then is a part of the conspiracy. Do you follow me?

Mr. SPECTER. I understand you, Mr. Ruby, but you have testified about most of this on the prior occasion, such as seeing the article in the newspaper, about the letter to little Caroline and about the necessity for Mrs. Kennedy to return, and we have formulated the questions concerning the major topics which we have of concern and have supplemented those topics in the questions to you. I think in all fairness that we have gone as far as we can on any of the substantive questions, and I want you to be satisfied, and the Commission wants you to be satisfied, and that’s why I keep repeating the question—whether you have any other topic. I can see you are trying to recollect something else—so that you will have covered everything in a conclusive way.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As soon as you are satisfied on that, I’m going to ask the other gentlemen a question, as I say, and as a matter of fact, I can do that now while you are still thinking.

I will ask Mr. Fowler if there is any other question that he would like to have asked of you at this time?

Mr. FOWLER. Sir, I know of no other questions that could be asked at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill, do you have any other questions you would like to have asked?

Mr. TONAHILL. No, I don’t. I think it has been very, very comprehensive. From my knowledge of the background, I think if you asked Jack if he went to the Dallas Morning News that morning to attend to business and protested vigorously the ad insulting President Kennedy, if he protested because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American citizen, I think he would, tell you “Yes” and he would be telling the truth.

I think if you asked him why he went out about 4 o’clock in the morning with George Senator and Larry and took that picture of the sign——

Mr. RUBY. Don’t mention anything about that—we’re in a bad spot down here because of that.

Mr. TONAHILL (continuing). Of Chief Justice Earl Warren, he would tell you that he did it because he was going to turn it over to the FBI and some attorneys, because he thought it was un-American and he did it because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American citizen, and he’s telling the truth.

Mr. RUBY. I also went over to the post office to check on the box.

Mr. TONAHILL. The same thing on the box—to see there if the post office numbers on the sign and in the newspaper ad meant the same person was behind it, which would be the John Birchers and Communists both, and he wanted to do something about it because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American citizen, he would be telling the truth.

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know about the ad—you’re talking about the ad against President Kennedy?

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t refer to the John Birch—with reference to that.

Mr. TONAHILL. He wanted to see if they were connected together—the same people.

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t mention the term “John Birch.” I just said, “I wonder who could have placed that ad in there?”

Mr. TONAHILL. That’s all I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any questions to ask?

Mr. ALEXANDER. I have no questions to ask. I think it has been most comprehensive.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, did you go to the Dallas Morning News to protest the advertisement that made derogatory statements about President Kennedy?

Mr. RUBY. No; I went there to place my ad, because my business is very—it’s very important that I’m there on the weekend, in the first place. My business is conducted on a cash basis, and you can’t place your ads unless you are there to pay for them.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified to that before?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any comment about the newspaper advertisement which contained derogatory references to President Kennedy?

Mr. RUBY. We spoke about it up at the Morning News there, and I didn’t want to make anything there about it because I knew they accepted it. They accepted the ad. It would be rather embarrassing to say something to them because they were responsible. The phones were ringing off the desks with people canceling various ads and so on, but I did make—I went to the Turf Club—that’s where I got all hepped up about it—over at the Turf Lounge, and I went to the post office to find out who was it that placed that ad, you know, and how it came about.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you satisfied then, Mr. Ruby, if we ask you one more question on the polygraph, specifically, “Has all the information which you have testified to today been the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?”

Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I do want to get in my feeling for Americanism and how I felt, because—remember—there may be unseen persons that may not believe in my sincerity, so I want that specifically asked—how I feel about my country I live in and so on, unless it’s repeating something. Is it?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will ask it of you again so that there’s no question about. We will formulate the question, “Do you consider yourself to be a 100 percent American patriot?”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then we’ll ask the general question about whether every bit of information you’ve given us today has been the whole truth?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon and ask those two questions.

Mr. RUBY. One more thing—shouldn’t you ask me, or isn’t it necessary, why I suddenly was so carried away to get involved in this serious crime?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, that won’t work on the machine.

Mr. SPECTER. We have to ask you a “Yes” or “No” question, and we’ve already covered that by asking you the question about Mrs. Kennedy—whether you didn’t shoot Oswald to avoid having her come to trial.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that covers that.

Mr. SPECTER. That covers that subject.

Mr. RUBY. In other words, I can’t answer that truthfully and have another reason for doing it; is that correct?

Mr. SPECTER. Correct.

Mr. RUBY. That would answer that?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. We’ve asked you all the reasons——

Mr. RUBY. But you don’t ask me why I did it, though? Why I was carried away so much—you don’t ask me that.

Mr. SPECTER. We did ask you—we asked you “Why did you shoot Oswald?”

Mr. RUBY. But you don’t ask me why I got carried away so?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, it’s the same question.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, it’s the same question.

Mr. SPECTER. This is the same question—in the form of: “Did you do it in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the travail of a trip to Dallas?” That subject matter has been covered as comprehensively as we can through the polygraph.

Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, and ask those final questions?

Mr. HERNDON. I would like to proceed with, “Are you Jack Ruby?”

Mr. SPECTER. That’s fine—that’s your line.

Mr. HERNDON. Then, I’ll ask you. “Do you consider yourself to be a 100 percent American patriot?”

Then, what was the last question you wanted asked, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. “Is all of the testimony given by you today the complete truth?”

Mr. HERNDON. I think I can ask those questions now.

Mr. Ruby, does this noise disturb you right now, are you conscious of it or aware of it [referring to audible conversations between other jail occupants outside this room]?

Mr. RUBY. I hear it.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired?

Mr. RUBY. No; I’m all right.

Mr. HERNDON. Are you getting a little tired?

Mr. RUBY. I’m all right.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll ask you just these last few questions. Would you once again kindly put your feet flat on the floor, and let’s put these back so you will be comfortable.

(Reporter’s note: 8:55 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I will have to wait for the instrument to warm up just a second. This will be series No. 11.

(Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers one time.)

Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to proceed?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just ask these three questions, and once again, these are more or less summation questions here, and I want you just to relax and answer them simply, “Yes” or “No.”

The series will now begin.

“Are you Jack Ruby?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Do you consider yourself to be a 100 percent American patriot?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. “Has all the testimony given by you today been the complete truth?”

Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”

Mr. HERNDON. The series is over.

(Reporter’s note: 8:59 p.m.)

Mr. HERNDON. I have no questions, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. That concludes the polygraph examination.

Mr. HERNDON. Now, I will take all this paraphernalia off of you, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. I would like to have you sign your name about 10 times, for us, Mr. Ruby, and would you put the date on this for us too? The date is July 18, 1964.

Mr. RUBY. Let me have my glasses, Joe.

Mr. TONAHILL (handed glasses to Mr. Ruby).

Mr. SPECTER. And now would you write the sentence at the bottom, “Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.”

Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Specter).

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you skip down and write that again. I would like for you to write that three times in all, and you might sit down and take a chair and do so.

Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Specter).

Mr. SPECTER. Very good.

Mr. RUBY. What time is it?

Mr. HERNDON. It’s 9 o’clock.

Mr. SPECTER. I have five after nine—Dallas, Tex., time.

Mr. RUBY. Joe, are you going to do what I asked you to?

Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best. You know me well enough to know that I’m going to do my best.

Mr. RUBY. I know you well enough.

Mr. HERNDON. You were very cooperative, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. TONAHILL. Goodbye, Jack. Good to see you.

Mr. RUBY. You’re going to do what I ask you to do?

Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best. I told you I would. Everything I do is for your best interest and I have worked awful hard.

Mr. RUBY. I know. You are a big man and I know how big you can be.

Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best, like I said, and not let anything under the sun happen.

Mr. RUBY. You know what I’m talking about?

Mr. TONAHILL. I know exactly what you’re talking about.

(Before leaving the room Mr. Ruby conferred briefly with Messrs. Tonahill and Alexander out of the hearing of others in the room, and departed with Chief Jailer Holman at 9:07 p.m.)

TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM ROBERT BEAVERS

The testimony of Dr. William Robert Beavers was taken at 9:10 p.m., on July 18, 1964, at the Dallas County Jail, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Present were: Bell P. Herndon and W. James Wood, special agents of the FBI; Clayton Fowler and Joe H. Tonahill, counsel for Jack Ruby; William F. Alexander, assistant district attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; and E. L. Holman, chief jailer.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that it is 10 minutes after 9 p.m. and that Mr. Ruby has departed in the custody of Chief Jailer E. L. Holman and that we are reconvening for the purpose of taking testimony from Dr. William Robert Beavers at the request of Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill.

Dr. Beavers, would you stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this proceeding before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. BEAVERS. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated please, and state your full name for the record.

Dr. BEAVERS. William Robert Beavers.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please?

Dr. BEAVERS. I am a psychiatrist and physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth your home and office addresses, please?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. My home address is 4071 Northlawn Drive, Dallas. My office is at 3911 Maple, Dallas, which is Woodlawn Psychiatric Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly your educational background, please?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, I finished medical school here at Southwestern in Dallas in 1953, interned in Wayne County General Hospital in Eloise, Mich. I had a fellowship in pharmacology in 1954–55, spent 2 years in the Air Force in the Arctic in research and returned; I was an assistant professor of pharmacology for 3 years and during that time I took a year of internal medicine at St. Paul’s Hospital here in Dallas. Following this in 1960 I entered a residency in psychiatry at Southwestern here in Dallas and completed the residency in 1963. Following this, I went back on the faculty of the Medical School as assistant professor of psychiatry.

Mr. SPECTER. And, do you hold the latter position at the present time?

Dr. BEAVERS. That’s correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a member of any accredited psychiatric societies?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I’m a member of the Dallas neuropsychiatric group, the Texas Neuropsychiatric Society and the American Psychiatric Association.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now set forth the major items of your background with respect to qualifications in the field of psychiatry?

Dr. BEAVERS. Perhaps it should be mentioned that I am on the attending staff at Parkland as a psychiatrist and that I consult at the Terrell State Hospital as a psychiatrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion to examine Mr. Jack Ruby prior to today?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; on numerous occasions prior to about 4 weeks ago, did I see him.

Mr. SPECTER. On approximately how many occasions have you examined Mr. Ruby?

Dr. BEAVERS. Without my records here, it would not completely accurate, but it would be in the area of about 9 or 10 times, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe with respect to Mr. Ruby’s mental condition during the course of those examinations?

Dr. BEAVERS. I saw him first—can I get somebody to help me with a date?

Mr. TONAHILL. April the 27th, the 28th, or 29th of this year.

Dr. BEAVERS. The day that Dr. West first came down was on a Sunday.

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, that was the 26th of April.

Dr. BEAVERS. He testified Monday morning and then I saw Mr. Ruby first on that Tuesday.

Mr. TONAHILL. The 28th.

Dr. BEAVERS. Right, and at that time he had briefly what I call a psychotic depression, that is, he had evidences of auditory hallucinations and a poorly defined but definite delusional system which waxed and waned during the time of the interview, and he had evidence of a severe degree of depression.

Because of the combined symptoms of the hallucinatory activity, the delusions in which, and I should spell them out, that he felt that both members of his family, his close family, were being harmed, mutilated and/or destroyed because of his crime, and further, that there was a pogrom concerning Jews generally because of his crime.

These symptoms plus the depression which was evident, caused me to diagnose a psychotic depressive reaction.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated your conclusion regarding his mental state?

Dr. BEAVERS. At that time.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you set forth the essence of the underlying factors relating to that conclusion?

Dr. BEAVERS. In very brief nature—yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any different conclusion as to his mental state today?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. I do. I think that as I have seen him, the depressive element has diminished, and that the delusional system has become much less open and obvious, and that it has become more fixed, and it seems to—and this I’m not sure of—whether it waxes and wanes depending on the time in the weeks or whether it waxes and wanes depending on the closeness of the people that he sees.

Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, when you say that the state is much less open, do you mean by that, that it is now more obvious?

Dr. BEAVERS. Less obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. Less obvious?

Dr. BEAVERS. Less obvious.

Mr. SPECTER. But is it present, notwithstanding the degree of how much it is apparent?

Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion it is. Yes. The thing that I’m trying to make clear here is that you take a person that has a mental illness which shows itself in delusions, that is, ideas that things that we say aren’t real—they can be very uncertain and changing and very obvious, and which the person will share them with just about anybody, or they can be much more covert—hidden—and shared only seldom, and much more fixed, not shifting around, but fixed.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize his condition in your opinion as he sat here today during the polygraph examination?

Dr. BEAVERS. Based on—let’s see if I can give the specific things that make me come up with this opinion—the relationship that he has with the prosecuting attorney, the relationship he has with his attorneys; there are certain kinds of actions and behavior in these two relationships which fit better in my opinion with the continuation of a covert delusional system concerning threat to his race, his family, based on his presumed activity in a conspiracy, then it would fit with rational realistic appreciation of the factors in his environment.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present today, Dr. Beavers, during the entire course of the polygraph examination?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, I was.

Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, was Mr. Ruby in contact with reality during the course of the polygraph examination?

Dr. BEAVERS. In the greater proportion of the time that he answered the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an appreciation of reality.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any element of a delusional state present in the answers which he gave during the course of this polygraphic examination?

Dr. BEAVERS. I felt the only time that there were questions which tapped any of the underlying delusional systems were the questions relating to his opinion about the safety of his defense counsel and the safety of his family, either past or present.

It seemed to me, because he was fairly certain in his answers during the trial run, and then following this during the actual run of the polygraph, there was so much hesitation and uncertainty which resulted in no answers, that we were seeing a good deal of internal struggle as to just what was reality.

His explanation following this, following the run of the polygraph, I don’t think enlightened us very much in terms of what it was he was actually feeling or thinking.

Mr. SPECTER. But would you have concluded that he was delusional had he stated that his family and his attorneys were in danger?

Dr. BEAVERS. I’ve got to think about that. You can’t answer it “Yes”—if it had been as strong a question as it might have been possible to frame, but I feel that to get a perfectly accurate idea of what he meant by it would require more than a “Yes” or “No” answer, but this would have been one of things that had he answered it directly, that would have led me to think that he had an area here where reality in the testimony was poor.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, does his refusal to answer that question during the course of the polygraph examination, subject to the analysis that the polygraphic examinations can bring to bear, indicate that he is not in a delusional state?

Dr. BEAVERS. I’m not sure I follow you here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, perhaps I can rephrase that.

During the course of the polygraphic examinations, he is subject to certain checks on truthfulness, at least to some extent.

Dr. BEAVERS. I see what you’re getting at now.

That would be an assumption, I think, on both our parts that I wouldn’t make as to why he didn’t answer. It possibly could have been his trying to protect in some way an answer from the polygraph.

I felt it equally likely that it was the fact that it was the second time through on the same question which he had answered first and then there had been a lot of thinking going on, was a great deal more opportunity for uncertainty.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you think his first answer that his family and counsel were in danger, indicated to some extent at least, a delusional state, and then after he had had an opportunity to consider it, that he became uncertain because of the greater opportunity to focus on what in your opinion was a delusion to start with?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. This thing to me is complicated, maybe because—for example, if I can digress for a moment.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; feel free to do that.

Dr. BEAVERS. Chief Holman has told me a number of times and I have seen it in a sense, he feels that this man has tried to seem delusional. On the other hand, at times it is quite obvious that he is trying to seem sane and becomes quite truculent and angry at people who imply that he was in fact of unsound mind.

One of the things I think that is extremely obvious in any of this man’s discourse over a period of time is the marked ambivalence, that is, the mixed feelings which are strong but on both sides of almost any position that he has taken.

This may be true at the time or it may be true sequentially, so that on the one hand we see him trying to appear quite sane and according to some testimony, at times he has not done this but in fact, not according to my own testimony, but the statements that I have heard from others, he has tried to appear a little bit more delusional than the person thought that he was.

Now, I felt that this answer that we saw the second time around was consistent with the same attitude that he had when he came, when he was stating very definitely that he was not of unsound mind. In other words, it may have given him a little more time to cover.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the questions to which you have referred on the danger to counsel and family, did the delusional state which you have characterized as his condition of today, have any effect in your opinion on the polygraphic examination?

Dr. BEAVERS. I can’t answer the question like it’s put, but I can answer it this way, if I may, because I’m just not an expert on that box over there. I don’t know that much about polygraph.

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to the polygraph machine. Well, consider the question rephrased in a manner that you find it convenient to respond to?

Dr. BEAVERS. All right. I felt that so far as my ability to evaluate this man in responding to questions, that any delusional state did not interfere with awareness of the past, with the presence of seemingly adequate memory, with the presence of an apparently reasonable appreciation of reality in reference to his whereabouts and his behavior in the critical time that was under discussion.

In short, he seemed to behave like a man with a well-fixed delusional system in which whole areas of his thinking and his behavior is not strongly interfered by the delusion.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the major portion of the polygraphic examination then, except for those parts which you have already referred to, would not be affected in your opinion by what you have characterized as his delusional state?

Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion, the major portion of his appreciation of questions and of his answers would be unaffected by the delusional state.

I just can’t, you see, in all honesty, answer something about what the machine taps, because I think I would sort of be making a fool of myself because I don’t know that much about polygraph.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Beavers, do you have an opinion as to whether the polygraphic examination which was conducted here today hurt Mr. Ruby mentally or physically in any way?

Dr. BEAVERS. Well, after the period of time, I think we were all fatigued. I think he was and I think everybody in the room was. I felt that he was fatigued as the rest of us were, during the course of a pretty long number of hours of interrogation.

Whether this would come under the heading of any physical harm, I don’t know. I would not consider it so ordinarily.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that fatigue diminish or evaporate with some rest tonight?

Dr. BEAVERS. I think so; I think so. I know what you’re trying to get at and I’ll try to answer it the best I can. The question of whether his mental state, and secondarily, a physical problem would be seriously affected by having this interrogation, by having this man take a polygraph examination. The one thing that this man has not been ambivalent on since my acquaintanceship with him, and I mean that so far as I can think of literally, the one area, the one subject that he has not been having these mixed feelings about is the fact that he did want to make this testimony, either with truth serum or with a polygraph or some way of getting the truth out.

Now, as a physician, and this was my role in these evaluations, not at the time and so far until right now, not as somebody testifying, I was concerned with his mental state, and rather early I felt there would possibly be something useful so far as the man’s mental state, if he could have a chance to tell his story. The mixture of what I consider his delusional state surrounding the possible conspiracy that people thought that he had, and therefore this tremendous number of destructive actions, that were presumably going on, fitted to an extent with some published reports of people’s opinions here and abroad. In short, there has been a mixture of the delusional and of the factual, a mixture of his confusion and a mixture of all other people’s confusion, and he is aware of it and has been, because apparently he gets newspapers. Apparently he has access to what both reasoned and unreasoned statements that are made. Consequently, I felt that it would be useful, if anything, that he be allowed a chance for this. I haven’t stated this to anybody, I don’t think, because there were a lot of other things that I could not evaluate. I’m not in a position to evaluate the legal or other reasons that might not be useful.

Mr. SPECTER. But with respect to his mental status, would it have been your expectation prior to the time that the polygraph examination started that it would have been beneficial rather than harmful to have it conducted?

Dr. BEAVERS. If anything, the odds are good that it actually wouldn’t do much one way or the other in my opinion, but the feeling of getting out the catharsis or the getting his story before the people that he has felt, for example, including the State, that were involved in some kind of action against people he cared for, because they assumed erroneously there was some conspiracy, then this might have some beneficial effect.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your conclusion after being present during the course of the polygraphic examination as to whether it had beneficial effect or not?

Dr. BEAVERS. It’s hard to say. I think he held up rather remarkedly well. At least, this is my opinion. I haven’t been present with polygraph interrogations, but he certainly did not show undue stress, either physical or emotional, and handled the questions better than I thought he would. It did seem like he was getting, in a sense, his day in court, which was by reasons of his, as I understand it, trial procedure and presumed defense tactics not allowed him in the first trial. This to me is what he kept coming back to during the course of the examination, that he wanted to get his story out, and during the times I have seen him.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it your interpretation that the consequence during the course of this polygraph examination may have the ultimate consequence of benefiting him?

Dr. BEAVERS. I think it could. I would suspect, if I tried to look and see what would happen tomorrow, that he might be somewhat depressed. This usually is what happens with somebody who has been looking forward to something for a long, long time that’s going to be solving all of his problems and it actually happens and nothing much is different, but I think he will be depressed.

Mr. SPECTER. If he is depressed tomorrow, is that what you would think would be a temporary state?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I think it.

Mr. SPECTER. So that that would not necessarily characterize the longrun effects of this examination?

Dr. BEAVERS. That’s correct.

Mr. SPECTER. When you characterized a few moments ago his situation as being fatigued, as we all were, do you think that he understood all the questions which were being put to him and then answered them responsively, or do you think that at some point his fatigue reached such a point that he was not responding understandably to the questions?

Dr. BEAVERS. I was impressed with the skill of the man giving the test. I felt the breaks were fairly well spaced. He didn’t show an excessive amount of fatigue, in my view, except before the first break. He seemed to show more fatigue then than he did later on.

Mr. SPECTER. Of course, you observed his interest in pursuing a great many topics and the difficulty really in bringing the examination to a close.

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; which sort of fits with my feeling about the depression a little bit in that he was aware that, well, “the show is about over,” that his day in court was coming to a close, and I suspect that the long-expected kinds of feelings probably were not as great as he hoped for.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be helpful to the President’s Commission in any way?

Dr. BEAVERS. I would only say that I think I’ll make it my business to read up a little bit on some of the interrelationships between mental illness and polygraph. When I state that I’m not an expert in this area, it’s true. If by a combination of my readings, which I plan to do, and my presence here and my previous and present views of Mr. Ruby, I might be of help in forming an opinion, I will be available.

Mr. SPECTER. If you find through that course of study that you have anything to add, I’m certain the Commission would be interested in having any supplemental observations or conclusions on your part.

Mr. Fowler, do you have anything you would care to ask Dr. Beavers?

Mr. FOWLER. I am requesting Mr. Tonahill to ask a few questions, if you have no objection, which is not in the way of cross-examination but just by way of a further development.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Tonahill.

Mr. TONAHILL. Dr. Beavers, during the trial of Jack Ruby for the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Bill Alexander, the assistant district attorney, sought and obtained a death sentence for Jack Ruby for the murder of Oswald, and I along with other counsel sought far less—an acquittal or at least a number of years. You have noted, have you not, here that Mr. Ruby resents my presence. He says I’m not his attorney and then asked me to do him favors and this, that, and the other, and you have noticed he has tremendous faith and confidence in Mr. Alexander, who obviously is here to, in the event of another trial—and in the event of Mr. Fowler’s efforts and mine to obtain another trial for him is successful—he is here to obtain information for the benefit and use of whatever information he can get to get another death penalty.

Have you an opinion as to what goes on with reference to Ruby’s mental illness that causes him to put faith in Mr. Alexander and no faith in me. With reference to the question—is his mental state such that he can’t aid and assist his lawyers in their efforts to appeal his sentence and try to get him a new trial, and in his defense, and in the management of his personal affairs, is he of such mental incompetency that those things indicate to you that there is something in his mind, something mentally ill about him that prevents him from realizing what is best for him in his dealings with the prosecutor and his defense attorneys, and in connection with managing his affairs and in helping his defense attorneys in his ability, his capacity, his capabilities of handling his personal affairs. What is your feeling about that from what you’ve seen here today and what you’ve known from other observations of Mr. Ruby?

Dr. BEAVERS. Maybe I can get it in pieces and parts of that—I don’t know. I think the question of mental competency in the hearing that’s going to be coming up in the future, at least from what I read in the newspapers, and I think possibly rather than an off-the-cuff answer, you may have to sort of settle for a statement that I made concerning his mental illness, because I don’t do a whole lot of legal work, and I would be quite cautious in making a statement concerning the specific legal questions about competency for affairs until I got more acquainted with this particular statute.

In other words, if you’re asking me a question about his mental status and the mental illness, maybe I can make some comments.

Mr. TONAHILL. Well, I was trying to do it, but I wanted to give you a little range and you could pinpoint yourself down to such as the episodes here today between the relationship of his own lawyers and his apparent partiality to Mr. Alexander here.

Dr. BEAVERS. This is what I referred to earlier, and I will be glad to amplify it a bit. On the face of it, it seems to me that as far as an awareness and appreciation of reality, there was this jeopardy—that some of the behavior that he had toward Mr. Alexander as far as wanting him very definitely to be in the room when he made certain damaging statements concerning the amount of premeditation—this would not be the actions of a wise and prudent man in my opinion. I think it does fit more clearly with his previously stated delusional material to me, that in fact there is a considerable body of people, the district attorney’s office and district attorneys included, who do feel that he is a part of a conspiracy, and that in fact either past, present and/or future actions toward loved ones and toward members of his race are going to be taken against these people because of this presumed conspiracy. If this were the case, then it would make extremely good sense that he would want Mr. Alexander here, and he would want him here very definitely because he, instead of being wise and prudent in the defense of his presumed safety and welfare at a future trial, he is much more concerned with getting the truth out so that a whole host of terrible things won’t happen.

Now, in reference to his activities toward you [referring to Mr. Tonahill], the ambivalence we talked about was beautifully illustrated. He begins by reading you out, by firing you in a sense, and then later on in the middle of the activities he begins to have a markedly warm attitude toward you and begins to refer to you as, I think, “Joe,” once again. A reverse I may have noticed of this, of two or three changes back and forth, but they were both distinctly and clearly expressed, which has been my experience and also my opinion based on working with people who have this kind of a delusional system, that they show consistently, that is, with somebody who is related to them very closely—you’re going to catch hell and then you’re going to be responded to in an effort of bringing you back. In other words, I think there is a probability that the reasons for relating warmly to the district attorney’s representative and ambivalently toward you are as I have stated, and very slightly different from one another.

Mr. TONAHILL. In his present mental state, do you feel he is capable of conferring with Mr. Fowler and me and Mr. Burleson and aiding and assisting us in an appellate effort in his behalf in reference to his mental capacity?

Dr. BEAVERS. This entails two questions—one, his mental state, and two, how much in fact is involved in aiding you in this appeal.

Now, to the first one, I hope and am reasonably confident of the opinion I have given of this present mental illness at this time. As to the latter, I have sort of opinions off-the-cuff from everything that he needs to be pretty savvy and help you out, to the fact that it doesn’t make any difference at all as to whether he can talk or not in terms of an appeal, so I don’t know, because I don’t know No. 2.

Mr. TONAHILL. You and Dr. Holbrook, Dr. John Holbrook, who has examined him, and Dr. Stubblefield who has examined him, and Dr. West who has examined him, all four psychiatrists and outstanding men——

Dr. BEAVERS. And Dr. Tanay.

Mr. TONAHILL. And Dr. Tanay—five. Is it uniform agreement among you five gentlemen that Jack Ruby is mentally ill and suffers with psychotic delusions?

Dr. BEAVERS. The last time I talked to the other four gentlemen you have just mentioned, their opinion was the same as my own. I couldn’t state if anybody changed their mind. Dr. Tanay, following his visit here, and I had lunch together and discussed the case. At the time that we talked to the judge, Dr. Stubblefield and I, and then some 2 weeks later, shared our views, and they were in reasonably consistent agreement. There was no disparity to speak of. Dr. West, I talked to by telephone about 2 weeks ago, I believe.

Do you remember when that was, Mr. Fowler?

Mr. FOWLER. I think perhaps that would be a month ago, Dr. Beavers, or somewhere thereabouts.

Dr. BEAVERS. Well, it was after I came back from vacation. At any rate, between 2 weeks and a month ago, I believe, and his view was that this man was mentally ill, and further than that, that he was pretty much as I have described him here.

Mr. TONAHILL. And there have been instances where he rammed his head into the wall and then tried to get his finger up in the light socket, and then tried to rip the seam out of his trousers to kill himself, you felt he was suicidal and should be protected from that effort, and all of you agreed on that, I believe?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. It really wasn’t based on those actions as much as, I think, the depression that I saw initially, which has cleared up somewhat as he has gotten more delusionary.

Mr. TONAHILL. You all felt that he should be out of jail and in a mental hospital where he could get adequate mental care and mental treatment, from psychiatric care and therapy medications?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I thought this and this was the recommendation of the other doctors that saw him.

Mr. TONAHILL. That would be Dr. Stubblefield, Dr. Holbrook, Dr. West, and Dr. Tanay?

Dr. BEAVERS. I’m not sure about Dr. Tanay. I don’t know that I heard him state that specific thing. I do know that the recommendation of Dr. Holbrook and Dr. Stubblefield and myself, and further that Dr. West, made the same recommendation. I do feel that we had two problems. One was security as well as medical care. I feel like maybe I was perhaps a little bit more concerned about this than maybe some of the other specialists; I don’t know. This just happened to be my own view, that I was not only concerned about this man, hopefully finding a place for hospitalization, but that it would have to be a place where he had adequate security from without as well as any idea of suicide.

Mr. TONAHILL. Is there anything unusual about a person who is mentally ill and of unsound mind, still possessing keen memory faculties and being able to recall things accurately and clearly as well as being able to give responsive answers and to be in touch with reality?

Dr. BEAVERS. Oh, I would say that many people of unsound mind are deteriorated enough that they do not have adequate memory. Early in the course of many mental illnesses a lot of the faculties, including memory, are preserved, so that this in itself I don’t think would—because he has an apparently good memory would not mean that he is of sound mind.

Mr. TONAHILL. That’s what I mean—that there’s nothing unusual about the fact that he could still be of unsound mind and still have good recall and good response to the questions asked by the polygraph operator?

Dr. BEAVERS. I’m a little hung up on the term “unusual,” because to me, this is a statistical matter when you put it in that phrase, and then you would be talking about what percentage of people do and what percentage of people don’t.

Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t mean to do that.

I meant to ask you specifically, can Jack Ruby be of unsound mind, not know right from wrong, appreciate the nature and quality of his actions, and still have a keen memory, a good memory, and give clear response to questions that appear to place him in touch with reality?

Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion this is possible for a person.

Mr. TONAHILL. Is it reasonably probable from the standpoint of medical certainty in your profession?

Dr. BEAVERS. I think so. You have included a question that I find it very difficult to answer—this business of right and wrong.

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.

Dr. BEAVERS. I stated my opinion to the Dallas Criminal Bar Association concerning this particular phraseology, and you asked it inclusive, in terms of several things?

Mr. TONAHILL. Well, with Mr. Alexander’s help, we’re going to eliminate that from the criminal test for insanity in criminal law in Texas.

I believe that’s all, unless Mr. Fowler has something.

Mr. FOWLER. Let me ask one thing, Dr. Beavers.

I believe that you do have a written report that you have submitted to the court, is that correct?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, sir. Now, I submitted a written report about the first evaluation, not to the court but to Mr. Burleson, who requested my services on behalf of family.

I then sent a shorter report, which included the major points and the recommendations, to the attorneys, to the judge, to Sheriff Decker, and I believe that’s all.

Now, I assume, and I think it’s the case that probably the defense attorneys passed the report on to the judge, but I did not send it myself.

Mr. FOWLER. In any of these reports, you have no objection to making them available to this Commission?

Dr. BEAVERS. Oh, no.

Mr. FOWLER. If they are requested?

Dr. BEAVERS. If the rights of the patient and the defense attorneys are in agreement—if the rights of the patient are maintained—no, I have no objection.

Mr. TONAHILL. I think it would be nice, if you would, let him have copies of all the reports you have written with respect to his illness, and they would not involve any jeopardy of Mr. Ruby’s rights at all, if you would mail them to Mr. Specter.

Dr. BEAVERS. Would you like to have them?

Mr. SPECTER. The Commission would be glad to receive any reports you have or any other supplemental information that you may wish to provide.

Dr. BEAVERS. I’ll be happy to.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have a question?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Just one or two questions.

Do you recognize that late counsel for the defense, Mr. Fowler, did not participate in the Jack Ruby trial and is not as aware of the facts brought out in the investigation as perhaps I, who was in on it at the first, or Mr. Tonahill, who was in on the trial? You appreciate that, do you not?

Dr. BEAVERS. You are saying that——

Mr. ALEXANDER. That Mr. Fowler got in so late on this thing that he probably doesn’t know—that he is not as aware of the facts of the case as I am?

Dr. BEAVERS. I don’t know how I would know that. I know when he came in, but how aware of the facts he is, I don’t know that. How would I know that?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Did it appear to you that Ruby was looking to me for aid in framing some of these questions because of my peculiar knowledge of the case, in that I was in on it from the moment of the assassination of the President?

Dr. BEAVERS. I noticed that he did look to you in terms of getting some sort of support or information or possibly framing questions.

Mr. ALEXANDER. And you see nothing unusual in that, considering the fact that I am probably the one person that has possession of the most facts?

Dr. BEAVERS. I think I have already covered what I felt was probable, as far as what was going on with Mr. Ruby as to how he behaved here.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Did you feel that he wanted me particularly to know the truth about certain areas or at least the truth as he represented it?

Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALEXANDER. You did not feel that I took advantage of him in any way here today, do you?

Dr. BEAVERS. No, I thought you were extremely gentlemanly and pleasantly helpful.

Mr. TONAHILL. I am not making that comment.

Mr. FOWLER. You have been the most cordial since we have been in this, Bill.

Let me make one other statement—this is relevant.

Are you through, Bill?

Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FOWLER. I wish to make this statement for the record that at some time during the course of this interrogation and hearing, that I was called by Mr. Bill Decker, stating that a telephone call, long distance, had been made to him. I answered the phone and Mr. Earl Ruby and Mr. Sol Dann were on the phone speaking from Detroit. They wanted to know what was going on and who had authorized this hearing, and why I came down and why Mr. Tonahill was here, and why we did not stop the hearing.

I tried to the best of my ability to explain to him that I had talked with Jack and has also explained to the Commission that we were of the opinion that Mr. Ruby had certain rights that might be violated here, but that this was entirely the wishes and demands of Jack Ruby himself, and these matters had been set up prior to my entrance into the case and prior to the entrance of Mr. Dann, and that I could not control them.

I was informed by Mr. Dann at that time that it was his intention to immediately contact the Warren Commission in Washington and file a criminal case, a case of assault and battery, against all parties conducting this hearing, including myself and Mr. Tonahill. At this point I was summarily fired, together with Mr. Tonahill, and I feel that this matter of course is something that Mr. Dann is not aware of, that all of this that has taken place here today—I think that we have tried to protect the rights of Jack Ruby, and I put this in to merely show that the call was made, and if any of you gentlemen have fear of reprisal or for whatever purpose it might be, and that I am sure that something further will be made of it.

Again, I wish to state this that in my opinion, whether we are still employed in the case, and I have not been fired by Jack Ruby, that we feel absolutely that his rights have been protected.

Mr. ALEXANDER. His brother Earl has not fired you either.

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the proceedings. Thank you all very much.

Mr. ALEXANDER. Just one more thing.

I myself will make no statement to anybody outside this room about anything, and let me make the suggestion that whatever statement is made, is made by Mr. Specter, if you want to agree on that.

Mr. TONAHILL. In fact I think that if Mr. Specter is going to give this statement, that if he tells them that a polygraph has been taken, I don’t think any of the questions and answers should be given out.

Mr. FOWLER. No; I very definitely and specifically request that these matters that have been gone into here today be for the Commission and the Commission only. It is our wish.

Mr. SPECTER. That will be done. The Commission heretofore has made no public statement of content to any extent. It has been the practice of the Commission to announce only what witnesses have been heard, and a very general statement of the witness’ status. In fact, Mr. Ruby was insistent that there be a statement made in terms of his request and his cooperation, and that had been discussed before as being the appropriate limit of such a statement. It’s my view that that should be followed up on, but no details of any sort stated as to his responses or anything else that transpired in this proceeding today.

Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; that he cooperated to the best of his ability.

Dr. BEAVERS. Any questions that are asked me, I will refer to Mr. Arlen Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Very fine, Dr. Beavers.

Thank you very much. This will conclude these proceedings.

Proceedings concluded at 10 p.m.

TESTIMONY OF BELL P. HERNDON

The testimony of Bell P. Herndon was taken at 2:05 p.m., on July 28, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Present today is Mr. Bell P. Herndon, a special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, who has been asked to testify concerning the results of the polygraph examination administered to Jack Ruby in Dallas, Tex., on July 18, 1964.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise, please, Mr. Herndon, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HERNDON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. HERNDON. My name is Bell P. Herndon.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation?

Mr. HERNDON. I am a special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. HERNDON. I have been employed as a special agent going on 14 years.

Mr. SPECTER. What specialty, if any, do you have with the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. HERNDON. I am presently the polygraph supervisor and polygraph examiner assigned to the FBI laboratory, Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background, please?

Mr. HERNDON. I received a bachelor of science degree from St. Lawrence University in 1947.

I have been in the FBI since 1951 and have been employed as a special agent primarily in field investigator work for approximately 10 years. The past 4 years I have been fully assigned to the laboratory in the capacity of a polygraph supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. What specialized training, if any, do you receive in order to qualify for being a polygraph operator?

Mr. HERNDON. Upon assignment to the FBI laboratory I underwent an intensive 6-months training program under a doctor, Ph. D. in psychology, who was a special agent polygraph examiner assigned to the New York office.

I also received considerable training from other special agents in the FBI laboratory who had graduate work in physiology and law.

After completion of 6 months’ intensive training, I was declared qualified to handle polygraph examinations for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many polygraphic examinations have you conducted during your service with the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. HERNDON. I have either given, supervised, or reviewed several thousand polygraph examinations.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly just what the polygraph machine is, and how it functions?

Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph instrument, of course, is commonly known to the public as the lie detector. In fact it is not such a device. The polygraph is simply an instrument which is designed to record certain physiological responses under stimuli in a carefully controlled interrogation. These physiological responses may accompany and indicate deception. It is used primarily as an investigative aid by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. SPECTER. From what does the machine derive its name “polygraph”?

Mr. HERNDON. The name polygraph is derived from the Greek derivative, poly meaning many, graph meaning writings and the actual polygraph chart will portray several writings indicating physiological responses of the examinee.

Mr. SPECTER. How many writings are there specifically which are made by the polygraph instrument?

Mr. HERNDON. On the current polygraph used throughout the field the instrument records three different physiological responses.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify those three physiological responses, please?

Mr. HERNDON. The first physiological response recorded on the polygraph pertains to the pneumograph tracing, pneumo pertains to the respiratory pattern of an individual. In other words, it records the inhalation and exhalation tracings of the person as he is normally breathing. It also records what we call the respiratory ratio, the ratio of the inhalation stroke to the exhalation stroke.

The second component utilized in the polygraph technique today is generally called the psychogalvanic skin response.

Mr. SPECTER. Spell that, please.

Mr. HERNDON. Actually, it is referred to as the galvanic skin response, galvanic. This particular response is obtained by electrodes placed on the examinee’s hands or fingers, a small minute amount of electrical current is passed through the skin, and the galvanometer will record the minute changes in the electrical skin resistance of the skin or the electrodermal response.

The third component utilized in polygraph technique is the cardiograph. This particular component measures the relative blood pressure changes and also the changes in the heart rate or pulse beat. The tracing is obtained by a pneumatic cuff being placed on the arm, usually the left arm, a certain amount of pressure applied so that the mean blood pressure can be obtained and the tracing is recorded on a moving sheet of chart paper.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the development of the polygraph instrument, please?

Mr. HERNDON. Over the years psychologists and physiologists have been aware of the fact that many people seem to respond physiologically under emotional stress, one, of course, being under a stress of a deception.

The more serious lie a person tells, quite frequently he is likely to have a physiological response. Over the years people who have dealt with interrogation techniques have frequently noticed that when a person is deceiving, that they visibly respond emotionally. In other words, they may not look a person right in the eye.

There may be a choking up of the throat. They may become flushed in the face. Based on this general common sense observation, law enforcement individuals who had psychological and physiological training decided in about 1920 that if they could obtain an instrument to record certain physiological, changes with regard to suspects in criminal cases, they might be in a better position to perhaps determine whether or not the person has been telling the truth.

They developed an instrument which was eventually called the polygraph or so-called lie detector.

Through the years it has been used by law enforcement. It is primarily used, as I said before, as an investigative aid, and it has been helpful in that it can provide investigative direction to people in the law enforcement profession.

Mr. SPECTER. What is its level of reliability in indicating patterns of deception?

Mr. HERNDON. There has been no conclusive scientific objective study in that regard, and as of today there are no valid statistics with regard to its actual objective reliability.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to its level of reliability in measuring patterns of deception in a normal person?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, the polygraph, of course, measures certain physiological responses which have to be interpreted. It must be clearly understood that the physiological responses that are portrayed on a polygraph chart can often be caused by things other than deception, such as fear, anxiety, nervousness, dislike, and many other of these emotions.

A polygraph examiner has to be extremely skilled and conservative in his estimation as to whether or not it is deception. I cannot give you any clear-cut personal opinion as to the validity of the technique with regard to its percentage of reliability.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from an opinion as to percentage of reliability, what is your opinion in a very general way as to the ability of a well-trained, conservative examiner to detect a pattern of deception in a normal person under appropriate standards of administration?

Mr. HERNDON. Based on a hypothesis of all factors you mentioned, a polygraph examiner under ideal conditions can generally interrogate a person, and if he has been able to obtain what he considers good control questions, he then may be able to come up with a conclusion which would indicate whether or not a person is deceiving or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what you mean by a control question?

Mr. HERNDON. The control question is the question on which you would expect the examinee to probably lie, or have some emotional response which can be used for comparative purposes with regard to the relevant questions of the interrogation.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you give an example of what you mean by control question, then?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I can.

In a bank embezzlement case, a good control question with an individual might be, “Have you ever stolen anything in your life that didn’t belong to you?”

In that regard it is expected the person would probably either hedge or deceive, and, therefore, the examiner can usually have an indication of whether or not this person will respond to a deception based on the examinee’s response to that question.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, what is the policy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the use of the polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. The FBI uses the polygraph technique purely as an investigative aid, in very carefully selected cases.

As I have said before, we feel that the polygraph technique is not sufficiently precise to permit absolute judgments of deception or truth without qualifications. The polygraph technique has a number of limitations which must be considered by the examiner. The instrument, again, I said before, is designed to record under proper stimuli emotional responses in the form of physiological variations which may accompany and indicate deception.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would there be on a polygraph examination if the subject were a psychotic depressive with respect to mental condition?

Mr. HERNDON. In that particular case, the FBI ordinarily would not render a polygraph examination to any individual in which there was any indication or evidence that he was psychotic.

Mr. SPECTER. What validity would a polygraph examination have on a person who was a psychotic depressive with respect to the mental condition?

Mr. HERNDON. The examination would be completely inconclusive or invalid in view of the fact that a psychotic individual is divorced from reality, and the tracings on his polygrams could not be logically interpreted.

Mr. SPECTER. Then is it necessary that a person be in touch with reality and understand the nature of the questions and answers in order for a polygraph examination to have any validity?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to conduct a polygraph examination on Jack Ruby?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I did, on July 18, 1964.

Mr. SPECTER. And at whose request was that polygraph examination conducted?

Mr. HERNDON. The examination of Jack Ruby was conducted at the specific request of the President’s Commission.

It is my understanding that Mr. Ruby specifically requested such a polygraph examination to the Commission in a prior interview he had with the Chief Justice.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the course of the entire session when Mr. Ruby was questioned, both before, during and after the actual administration of the polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And before the test was actually administered, did anyone ask Mr. Ruby whether he wished to have a polygraph examination conducted on him?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I believe Mr. Ruby was asked that question by the Commission. I am not sure of whether the defense attorney specifically asked him whether or not he wanted to take it, but I know that they were definitely against him taking the polygraph examination.

In my initial discussion with Mr. Ruby, I again also asked him to sign a voluntary waiver of consent to insure that he was freely and voluntarily taking the polygraph examination.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was Mr. Ruby’s response on the question of whether he wanted to take the polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. He clearly implied that he desired to proceed and take the polygraph examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it an implication or was it a direct statement on his part that he wanted the examination?

Mr. HERNDON. It was a direct statement, and he signed the waiver of consent.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the polygraph examination conducted?

Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination of Jack Ruby was conducted in one of the rooms in the Dallas county jail.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time the examination was conducted?

Mr. HERNDON. Present during the examination were Mr. Arlen Specter of the President’s Commission, myself, representing the FBI, Special Agent W. James Wood, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Dallas, Tex., office, Mr. Ruby’s attorneys were present, one being chief counsel Mr. Clayton Fowler, another attorney was present by the name of Mr. Joe Tonahill. Also present during the examination was a representative of the Dallas district attorney’s office, a Mr. William Alexander.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he present during the time of the examination or during the preliminary discussion on questions only?

Mr. HERNDON. He was present during the entire examination except for that phase in which Mr. Ruby was actually responding to my questions while he was actually on the instrument.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present?

Mr. HERNDON. Also present during the entire polygraph proceedings was a Dr. William Beavers, I believe, of Dallas, Tex., and a chief jailer, I believe his name was E. L. Holman. There was a court reporter, Odell Oliver, also present during the proceedings.

Also present during the preliminaries of the proceedings was a gentleman from the Dallas sheriff’s office by the name of Mr. Sweat, who indicated that he was a polygraph examiner.

Mr. SPECTER. Was a request made that he not be present during the course of the examination?

Mr. HERNDON. After consultation with Mr. Specter and myself, I believe Mr. Specter made arrangement with the sheriff, Mr. Decker, that Mr. Sweat not be present during the polygraph examination and further proceedings.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the physical arrangement of the room with respect to Mr. Ruby’s positioning during the time that the polygraph examination was actually administered?

Mr. HERNDON. I attempted to arrange Mr. Ruby in such a position that there would be a minimum of distraction and disturbance to him during the actual polygraph examination. He was placed rather closely against a wall where there were no pictures or no distracting marks or implementations on the wall. I also tried to place him in such a position so that he could not readily see anyone else who was in the room during the proceedings.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you successful in placing him in a position where he could not see anyone else while the test was being administered?

Mr. HERNDON. I believe he was in a position that only his secondary vision from the sides would possibly give him the impression that somebody was in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, did the presence of the other people in the room have on the administration of the test, in your opinion?

Mr. HERNDON. Normally during a polygraph examination the only ones in the room are the examinee and the examiner, and during Bureau proceedings we usually have another agent in the room out of sight that takes notes. It is considered an undesirable factor to have many people present in the room during a polygraph examination, particularly if these people are involved in any way in the case, such as the defendant’s attorney or someone who has a personal and keen knowledge in the proceedings. In this particular instance, it appeared to me that Mr. Ruby divorced the presence of these people from his mind during his response to the questions. However, it should be considered a factor which is one that could tend to negate a valid conclusion with regard to chart interpretation.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you taken that factor, then, into account in your evaluation of chart interpretation?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, did you hear the testimony of Dr. William Beavers which was taken immediately following the administration of the polygraph examination commencing at 9:10 p.m., on July 18, 1964?

Mr. HERNDON. I heard his testimony.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear him testify in a conclusory fashion that: “These symptoms,” referring to symptoms which he had described, “plus the depression which was evident caused me to diagnose a psychotic depressive reaction”? Did you hear him make that diagnosis?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. If that diagnosis is accurate, would there be any validity in a polygraph examination of Mr. Ruby?

Mr. HERNDON. There would be no validity to the polygraph examination, and no significance should be placed upon the polygraph charts.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you further hear Dr. Beavers testify as follows: “In the greater proportion of the time that he,” referring to Ruby, “answered the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an appreciation of reality.”

Mr. HERNDON. I heard him so testify.

Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Ruby’s mental condition was accurately characterized in that latter statement, then would the polygraph examination have validity in accordance with the limitations which you heretofore described?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, based on the hypothesis that Ruby was mentally competent and sound, the charts could be interpreted, and if those conditions are fact, the charts could be interpreted to indicate that there was no area of deception present with regard to his response to the relevant questions during the polygraph examination. However, I have no specific information to my knowledge which would resolve the hypothesis or the suggestion made by Dr. Beavers that Ruby was in fact rational and fully competent at that time, and, therefore, I would still have to render an inconclusive opinion with regard to the charts.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say in your last answer if Ruby was competent or sane, by that do you mean the characteristics which Dr. Beavers described, stated specifically, that he understood the questions and the answers, that he was giving answers based on appreciation of reality?

Mr. HERNDON. I qualified my answer to the previous question because of the fact, if you will recall, Dr. Beavers also testified later that it is entirely possible for a person who is psychotic to still appear to be rational and to be fully aware of reality. This particular testimony is with regard to specific questions presented to Dr. Beavers by Mr. Tonahill, and it is a known fact that certain psychotics at times can appear completely rational and appear to be competent.

Mr. SPECTER. The distinction on that, though, would be whether or not they are, in fact, in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and answers, or whether they only appear to be in touch with reality? Would that not be the key distinction that Dr. Beavers is making in his testimony?

Mr. HERNDON. I am not sure I follow you there, Mr. Specter. Will you repeat that again?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You say that Dr. Beavers said that many psychotics appear to understand the questions or appear to be in touch with reality.

Mr. HERNDON. He said it is possible, I believe, that a psychotic could appear to be rational and have a good memory, but still be a psychotic individual or psychotic personality.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but wasn’t the key distinction that Dr. Beavers was making was whether or not, in fact, the individual did understand the questions as opposed to whether he appeared to understand the questions?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I gather from Dr. Beavers’ testimony that in this particular instance during this particular phase of the examination with regard to two exceptions which he mentions, Ruby appeared to be fully aware of the intent and the meaning of the question and was rational in his reply.

Mr. SPECTER. But didn’t he go beyond that, Mr. Herndon, that is he did not use the qualifying term of Mr. Ruby’s appearing to be in touch with reality, but said, and I will make the portion of the transcript available to you: “I felt that he was aware of the questions and that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an appreciation of reality.”

Now, you have read that along with me. The distinction I am making here is that Dr. Beavers doesn’t say here that Mr. Ruby appears to be in touch with reality, but that he, in fact, is, according to Dr. Beavers’ conclusion, during the course of this examination, except for two areas which I am going to come to, that Ruby was, in fact, in touch with reality and did understand the nature of the questions and answers.

Mr. HERNDON. I recall he did specifically make that comment.

Mr. SPECTER. So that whatever ultimate conclusions flow from whether Ruby was psychotic or whether he was in touch with reality are beyond your ken as a polygraph examiner? You merely rely on what the psychiatrist says in formulating your conclusions; is that not so?

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, Mr. Specter. I would defer to psychiatrists, of course, with regard to whether or not a person is mentally competent or not.

Mr. SPECTER. So that if Mr. Ruby was psychotic, then the polygraph examination would have no validity?

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And if, on the other hand, Mr. Ruby was competent and in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and the content of his answers, then the polygraph examination would have validity?

Mr. HERNDON. Under that theory, then the polygraph examination could be interpreted, and there would be a conclusion rendered, still considering, of course, all the limitations of the polygraph technique, of course.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what two areas of questions did Dr. Beavers exclude in the portion of his answer which you and I just read together?

Mr. HERNDON. Dr. Beavers made specific reference to two questions which were originally drafted by himself, Dr. Beavers. These questions were in regard to whether or not Ruby believed his family were harmed or have been harmed, whether or not his family have been harmed for what he did, and the other question was in regard to whether or not he believed his chief counsel, Mr. Fowler, was in danger for defending him, Ruby, that is.

Mr. SPECTER. And as the record will show, those were the two questions that Dr. Beavers referred to where he felt Ruby was out of touch with reality when he answered them during the course of the polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And focusing for just a moment on those two questions before we proceed to your conclusions, what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question as to whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did?

Mr. HERNDON. During the actual polygraph examination, when that question was asked, Mr. Ruby failed to respond either yes or no.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any portion of the overall examination which precedes the time when the machine is activated and the needles are operating, so to speak?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. During the pretest interview, the actual questions are carefully discussed with the examinee, in this case Mr. Ruby, so that he fully understands the intent and the meaning of the questions.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a normal part of a polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. That is a standard procedure in a polygraph interrogation technique.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the purpose for that?

Mr. HERNDON. The purpose of that primarily is to be sure that the examinee fully understands the question and that there are no problems of surprise or semantics. It also psychologically conditions the subject in that he commits himself prior to the test and will be conditioned to know that the question will be asked again and he will have to make a decision as to how he is going to answer it, and whether or not he is going to attempt to deceive.

Mr. SPECTER. And what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question about whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did during the course of the preliminary discussion session?

Mr. HERNDON. To be sure; could we just check the transcript on that? I believe he did say yes, with regard to that question.

Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. Please do check the transcript, or your notes, either way which would be most expeditious. (Pause.) Have you now had an opportunity to check the transcript on that last answer, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have reviewed the transcript, and with regard to both those questions Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Mr. SPECTER. During which portion of the examination?

Mr. HERNDON. This was during the pretest interview.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say he gave “yes” answers to both questions, you mean the question about “did he think his family had been harmed as a result of what he did,” and also the question about “whether his defense counsel, Mr. Clayton Fowler, was in danger as a result of representing Mr. Ruby”?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; in both instances he volunteered yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Herndon, based on the hypothesis or assumption that Mr. Ruby was in touch with reality, and understood the nature of the questions, and the quality of his answers, what opinion did you formulate, if any, as to patterns of deceptiveness on the relevant questions during the polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. Based on the hypothesis that you just gave, Mr. Specter, a review of the polygraph charts would indicate to me, if in fact Ruby was mentally competent and sane, that there was no indication of deception with regard to the specific relevant pertinent questions of this investigation.

Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Mr. Herndon, I would like to take up the first series of questions and answers, and ask you to state for the record what they were and what graph readings you took by way of elaborating upon the conclusion which you just gave.

For the record I shall mark that first chart as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 1.

(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. HERNDON. As I review the first polygraph chart I notice that I made a notation at 1 p.m., that Ruby’s attorneys agreed to let Mr. Ruby take the test. I actually started my adjustments of the instruments on Mr. Ruby at 3 p.m. In this regard, I believe it proper to state that I was using a Stoelting deceptograph model 22500 which utilizes three components, the pneumograph, the galvanic skin response, and the cardiograph. Also utilized during the examination was a Stoelting polygraph subject chair.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the chair used during the course of this examination, please?

Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph subject chair is so designed to adjust the level of the arms and to give complete and full support to the arms. This is necessary to provide a minimum of restriction or pressure on both of the arms of the examinee. This is desirable in order to obtain the best possible tracing with regard to a person’s relative blood pressure changes and relative changes in the heart rate. It is also desirable to obtain the best possible tracing of the electrodermal responses or the galvanic skin responses. The chair is also constructed so that the person will generally refrain from slouching or crossing his legs during the examination, both of which are undesirable.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now then proceed to testify about the recordings on the chart?

Mr. HERNDON. I also notice with regard to the room that the lighting in the room was incandescent and not fluorescent, this possibly being a factor in the tracings with regard to the galvanic skin response. The incandescent lighting is much preferable, and, therefore, I feel that there was no outside electrical disturbance with regard to the tracing of the GSR, galvanic skin response.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate just a little more on why you think the lighting would have an effect on the galvanic skin response testing device?

Mr. HERNDON. I made a notation of this fact in my notes, in view of the fact that it has been evident in the past that fluorescent lighting at times has interfered with proper tracings with regard to the galvanic skin response.

Mr. SPECTER. And fluorescent lighting was present here?

Mr. HERNDON. No, fluorescent lighting was not present here, and the desirable or preferable incandescent lighting was present.

Mr. SPECTER. So that that would have a beneficial effect on eliminating a potential source of interference?

Mr. HERNDON. Not beneficial, but it would not necessarily hinder the tracing.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Proceed.

Mr. HERNDON. During my initial adjustments of Mr. Ruby to the polygraph, I noticed that he had a breathing rate of approximately 21 cycles per minute, which is well within normal respiratory patterns. I noticed that his heart rate was approximately 78 beats per minute, which is well within normal heart rate of individuals, and that there appeared to be no physical problems with regard to obtaining a satisfactory cardiogram, which monitors the cardiovascular system.

During series 1, two relevant questions were asked which were pertinent to the investigation.

Question No. 4, in which Ruby was asked, “Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”

Mr. SPECTER. And what was his response to that question?

Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded, “No,” and an interpretation of the charts based on the premise that Ruby was mentally sound and competent would fail to indicate any physiological response which would be suggestive of deception.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that there was no deceptive response elicited to that question?

Mr. HERNDON. This conclusion is actually based on my interpretation and study of the overall charts which are still to come up. Actually, in series 1, I noticed, however, that Mr. Ruby did respond physiologically to a control type question: “Have you ever been arrested?”

This physiological response was in the form of a rather noticeable rise in his blood pressure. To this particular question he did answer “Yes,” and later explained that he had been arrested for dancing after curfew at his own place.

He indicated by his answer that he was somewhat embarrassed by this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that for dancing after curfew or for permitting others to dance after curfew?

Mr. HERNDON. I got the interpretation from his comments that it was permitting dancing, and him also being possibly involved in the party after curfew hours. This, to me, does indicate, if in fact Ruby was mentally competent, that he was capable of displaying emotional responses on the polygraph, in this instance not necessarily deception, but some concern, as portrayed by the relative rise in blood pressure.

During series 1 Mr. Ruby was also asked another relevant question, question No. 6, which was pertinent to the investigation, that question being: “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”

Mr. SPECTER. And what was his answer to that question?

Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded “No,” and if in fact he was mentally competent at the time he answered that question, the charts could be interpreted that there was no physiological response to the stimulus of the question.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “could be interpreted,” Mr. Herndon, do you mean that that was your opinion or your conclusion as to whether there was a physiological response?

Mr. HERNDON. I wish to qualify my opinion here based on the fact that I am responding under the hypothesis proposed by you that this chart is being interpreted, that Ruby is of sound mind, and was rational in his mental process when responding to this question.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

As I understand it, that is your basic hypothesis or assumption in all of your answers to interpretation?

Mr. HERNDON. Fine, if we will keep that in mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. I think that is fair and I think we have put that on the record at the start so that whatever you interpret here is based on the assumption that he was in touch with reality, understood the questions, and knew what he was answering.

Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But the point I was coming to was, you said it “could be interpreted” that there was no pattern of deception, and my concern was whether there was any deliberate qualification in your answer on “could be interpreted” or whether it was your positive interpretation that assuming he knew what he was talking about and was sane, that there was no pattern of deception in his negative answer on the question of, “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”

Mr. HERNDON. To answer that question, Mr. Specter, I would have to go back to my original statement that the polygraph technique is not considered precise enough to make absolute statements of deception or nondeception, so, therefore, any time I make any observation it would be using probably a qualified word such as “appeared to indicate deception” or “suggestive of deception,” keeping in mind that, of course, there are many emotional responses that I am not in a position to evaluate, such as fear of being falsely accused, dislike for the people in the room, other factors which may tend to negate positive statements that here in fact this thing is meaning he is not lying.

Mr. SPECTER. On that particular question, were there any indicators at all that he was deceiving in his answer to question No. 6, to wit: “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”

Mr. HERNDON. Other than a slight impact in the GSR, there was no noticeable change in his physiological responses to that particular question.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the slight impact that you referred to in the GSR, meaning galvanic skin response?

Mr. HERNDON. The impact here not being significant enough to make any specific evaluation.

Mr. SPECTER. Then were there any other relevant questions in the first series?

Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in the first series.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else in the first series which is significant enough to comment on by way of analysis of the overall examination?

Mr. HERNDON. No other than to say that the total chart minutes for series 1 was 2 minutes 25 seconds in duration of time.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any fixed limitation on how long a series can run?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is generally conceded that a person should not be run on the polygraph beyond perhaps 4 minutes, inasmuch as after that time the pressure on the arm cuff can become discomforting and irritating to the examinee.

In view of the fact that there was a question here of possible effect on Ruby’s health, I attempted to maintain all my questioning within an approximate 3-minute period to insure no damaging effect on his physical condition.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any overall limitation on the amount of time that a person can appropriately take a polygraph examination?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there is a limitation. Certainly if a person is interviewed with polygraph at great length, in due time he is bound to become desensitized to the technique. In other words, the pressure on his arm and the technique itself becomes less valid as the increase in time proceeds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever become desensitized to the technique?

Mr. HERNDON. I believe in the last series of the first session, which I believe is series 4, Mr. Ruby showed some indications of becoming fatigued and displayed some tiredness in the charts. Also, I might add in the latter phase of the examination, in the latter series, there was some indication that he was approaching this desensitization that I have mentioned before.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings from series of 1?

Mr. HERNDON. I think so. There might be one other thing I will just mention here, and that is in question 5 with regard to, “Do you use the middle name Leon” there were some noticeable changes in the physiological tracings. However, these were caused by his laughter and talking in which he later explained that he sometimes used the name, but other times he doesn’t, and that the name Leon is sentimental to him. That is the only other noticeable variance in his normal tracing that I wish to comment on.

Mr. SPECTER. Let us then proceed now to series 2 and mark that Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 2, if we may, please.

(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to that chart, what significant findings were there on that chart?

Mr. HERNDON. The only significant change physiologically during series No. 2 was in Mr. Ruby’s response to the question, “Have you ever been known by another name?”, as portrayed by an increase in his blood pressure. He answered this question with both a yes and a no, and after the series was completed there was some discussion with regard to the question. He mentioned that he was uncertain how to answer the question because he had originally used the name of Jack Rubenstein and that he had legally changed it at a later date. Other than some variations in the pneumograph which were caused by his hesitating to answer due to the length of the questions provided, there is no other significant physiological change noticed in series 2.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the relevant questions in series 2?

Mr. HERNDON. The relevant questions in series 2 were No. 3 “Are you now a member of the Communist Party?” in which there was no significant physiological change.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his response there?

Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No,” to that question.

On question No. 5, which is considered relevant, he was asked, “Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” He responded “No,” and there is no significant response recorded. There is an adjustment on my behalf of the cardiogram tracing.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Where this arrow is placed, and I brought down the tracing to a lower level so that I could see if there would be any subsequent rise.

Mr. SPECTER. And was it a consistent tracing thereafter indicating no deviation?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. The cardiogram is interpreted as being consistent, and no significant change or deviation.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what other relevant questions were asked in that series?

Mr. HERNDON. Question 7, “Are you now a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?” There is no significant change in his relative blood pressure, and the only change significant in his breathing pattern which by chart interpretation was caused by him hesitating to answer the question due to its length.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his response to that question?

Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No” to question No. 7.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group?

Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was relevant. It was, “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?” Here, again, he responded “No.” There was no significant change.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start that again?

Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?”

This is a relatively long question for polygraph technique, and I note that there was some hesitation in the pneumograph tracing, in view of the fact he had to wait for the question to be completed before he could respond. He eventually did respond “No” and there was no significant change in his physiological tracings. The total chart minutes, that is the time that he was actually on the polygraph from the beginning to the end of this particular series, was 2 minutes 30 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group?

Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in that group.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings in that portion of the test on series No. 2?

Mr. HERNDON. There was a control question “did you ever make a false official statement” to which he responded “No.” There was a very minor change in the cardiograph tracing as portrayed by a slight decrease in the relative blood pressure. However, it is not considered significant enough to make any additional statements.

Mr. SPECTER. Now you have given us all the relevant findings for series No. 2; is that correct, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Let us now proceed to the next series and mark the next series as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you start off on the third series, Mr. Herndon, by telling us what were the relevant questions and the responses thereto, if any?

Mr. HERNDON. During series 3, there were three relevant questions asked. No. 3: “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”

He responded “No,” and there was no significant physiological change recorded on the polygraph. There is a noticeable change in the pneumograph pattern. However, this has been interpreted again as being caused by the relatively long length of this particular question.

Question No. 5 was: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot Oswald?” In comparison to his overall chart, there is nothing of particular significance in his physiological responses to this question, when he responded “No” to question 5.

Question No. 8 was: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?” This again being a relevant question. He responded “No.” There was no significant deviation in his physiological responses to this question.

During series 3 he was asked two control-type questions in which he did respond significantly with regard to the physiological tracings. Question No. 4 was asked: “Are you married?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.” An interpretation of his polygrams reveal a rather significant rise in his relative blood pressure. He also produced a rather vivid impact on the GSR tracings, and there was noticeable staircase suppression in his pneumograph pattern. This question was later discussed with Mr. Ruby, and he said that he was thinking of a young girl by the name of Alice Nichols who he had previously considered marrying. He admitted that he felt something “working on him,” with regard to this particular question. An analysis of this question would indicate that Ruby did emotionally respond to the stimulus of the question “Are you married,” and his thoughts of a former sweetheart. This does not indicate that there was any deception of course, but does suggest Mr. Ruby does respond physiologically to certain emotions that he feels when he hears the questions and decides how to answer them. In a sense this is a control-type question. Also in this series, in question No. 7, Mr. Ruby was asked: “While in the service did you receive any disciplinary action?” There is a noticeable rise in his blood pressure after he responded “No.” This question had been discussed rather thoroughly with him, and after the series was run, he admitted that he had been called in before his commanding officer regarding a brawl he had while in the military service. He also commented: “Evidently you are getting a good reading.” This could be interpreted as a deception pattern inasmuch as in his mind he realized he had been in some trouble in the military service; however, did not want to truthfully answer the question as he considered it insignificant.

However, he did admit that he had been in some trouble with his commanding officer regarding fighting. This is considered a control question, and its response is greater than his response to the previous relevant question which I had related.

Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any difference in psychological reactions, Mr. Herndon, on a pattern of deception which the subject considered insignificant as opposed to a pattern of deception which the subject considered significant?

Mr. HERNDON. Generally the concept of the polygraph technique is that we are attempting to find out what a man’s physiological responses will be in any area where he is attempting to deceive. The content of the actual deception is not particularly important. We want to get a tracing of where he is attempting to deceive. Now under a situation such as Mr. Ruby was in here, it is more probable that he is more concerned about these relevant questions than these irrelevant or control-type questions. In other words, the relevant questions have more to do with his well-being or what he is trying to prove to the Commission. However, the chart here still shows that he attempted to deceive with regard to what he considered insignificant, but it tends to indicate to me that he will respond to a practice of deception, if that answers your question.

Mr. SPECTER. What I am driving at here is whether there is any gage in whether he considers it insignificant or significant in the reading. Stated differently, there would be a response even though he might consider a question to be insignificant.

Mr. HERNDON. That is right. If there is an attempt on his part to practice deception, if he again, as I say, is competent and reasoning rationally. In general practice of polygraph work, generally speaking the control questions are of lesser severity than the actual pertinent questions, but in those cases where the person appears to be telling the truth, we find that they will respond more to the control questions than the critical question, even though the critical question has more potency and is more severe with regard to his well-being.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings on that chart?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Mr. Ruby also responded significantly in a physiological sense with regard to question 9: “Have you ever served time in jail?” He failed to actually respond yes or no. However, there was a decrease in his blood pressure, a moderate impact in the GSR, and a change in the baseline of his pneumograph tracing. The fact that he actually failed to say yes or no precludes my interpretation of whether or not this is an indication of deception, but it does indicate that Ruby did experience a physiological variation from his normal pattern with regard to this question which is of a control-type nature.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete then the relevant findings on that chart?

Mr. HERNDON. That concludes series No. 3. It might be worthwhile to record that the total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 45 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Let us then mark the next series, which is series 3a, as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you start there on series 3a with the relevant questions, the responses and your evaluation of any significant psychological deviation, please?

Mr. HERNDON. This particular series 3a was what would be called a modified peak of tension series. Ruby was carefully instructed prior to the series that four relevant questions were going to be asked in a consecutive order.

Question No. 3: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?” He responded “No.”

Question No. 4: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?” He responded “No.”

Question No. 5: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Saturday night?” He responded “No.”

Question No. 6: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” He responded “Yes.”

These are the only relevant questions in this series. A review of the chart with regard to his responses in this series reveals that Ruby’s blood pressure continually rose from the question No. 3 until it reached a peak just as question No. 6 was asked. In addition it was noted that there was a rather noticeable change in his breathing pattern as question No. 6 was approached. There is a slight impact in the GSR tracing as question No. 6 is approached. This would mean to me in interpreting the chart that Ruby reached a peak of tension as the question No. 6 was about to be asked in which he responded “Yes” to “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” This particular type of series cannot be interpreted with regard to whether or not there was any deception, but it does indicate that Ruby built up a physiological peak of tension to the time of Sunday morning with regard to his decision of shooting Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any correlation between the building up of a peak of tension and the accurate answer to the series?

Mr. HERNDON. In normal usage of polygraph technique where a peak of tension is used, if the series is effective, the party will usually respond to a particular item which happens to be the most pertinent with regard to the offense. In this case it appears that Ruby projected his entire thoughts and built up a physiological peak of tension to the point of Sunday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant readings on Exhibit No. 4?

Mr. HERNDON. There is no other significant reading on series 4. The total chart minutes was 2 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on then to series No. 4 and we will mark that as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start on that one, Mr. Herndon, by giving us the relevant questions and answers to those relevant questions and the responses, if any?

Mr. HERNDON. I believe this is series No. 4.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; series No. 4, and we have marked it as Exhibit No. 5. We are one out of number now since we have used an “A” series.

Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 4, Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.

Question No. 2: “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?” He responded “Yes.”

Question No. 4: “Did you enter the jail by walking through the alleyway?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.”

Question No. 6: “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 8: “Did you talk with any Dallas police officer on Sunday, November 24, prior to shooting Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

With regard to chart interpretation on this particular series of questions, it is difficult to interpret because this is the first series where Mr. Ruby tends to show a little fatigue in that he took several deep breaths, could not refrain from moving his foot and the rest of his body, and, in general, the chart is relatively difficult to interpret.

However, considering these body motions and his irregular breathing, there appear to be no significant physiological variations with regard to his response to the relevant questions as projected in that series. There is one question in which he displayed a moderate rise of blood pressure, and that was in regard to an irrelevant question No. 5: “Are your parents alive?” In which he stated “No.” He was questioned about this after the series was over, and he advised that he felt a little nervous during this series, but that particular question didn’t give him any trouble. His breathing is quite irregular throughout this series, and I have a notation on my chart that I advised Mr. Specter that Mr. Ruby was beginning to show some signs of fatigue, and it was mutually agreed that we would have a recess at this point.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that recess last, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. This particular series began according to my charts at 4:35 p.m., and the next subsequent series began at 6:48 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the important findings on series 4?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on now then to series No. 5 and mark that as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start with the relevant questions again, and give us the answers and any significant physiological deviation.

Mr. HERNDON. This particular series which my notes refer to as series No. 5 began at 6:48, and Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.

Question No. 2: “Did you see the armored truck before you entered the basement?” He replied “No.”

Question No. 4: “Did you enter the police department through a door at the rear on the east side of the jail?” He responded “No.”

Question No. 6: “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?” He responded “No.”

Question No. 8: “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?” He replied “No.”

The one particular thing of interest with regard to overall interpretation of this chart is how Ruby showed considerable more relaxation and appeared to be completely at ease after the recess. There was no physiological variation of any significance noted with regard to his replies to the relevant questions. There is some deviation with regard to his pneumograph tracing at question No. 7, which is considered a control-type question. This question was: “Other than what you told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of a weapon?” He responded to this question by talking. However, he later asked that the question be repeated. The question was repeated during the series, and he responded “No.” The only significant deviation from his normal pattern was recorded in the pneumograph, and this was caused by his talking in response to the question the first time it was asked.

There is nothing else significant noted in series No. 5.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed then to series No. 6 and we will mark that as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.)

Mr. HERNDON. Do you want the total chart minutes?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please give us that.

Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes of series 5 was 2 minutes 55 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show now that we have marked series No. 6 as Herndon Exhibit No. 7. Would you now, Mr. Herndon, specify the relevant questions, responses, and psychological deviations, if any?

Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 6 Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.

No. 2: “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store during the week before the assassination?” He replied “No.”

Question No. 4: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to a Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”

He replied “No.”

Question No. 6: “To your knowledge did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 and 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He replied “No.”

Question No. 8: “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He replied “No.”

From a review of Mr. Ruby’s polygrams, on series 6, it was noted that there were no significant physiological variations to his response to the relevant questions. It was noted that Mr. Ruby did display slight suppression in his breathing pattern, and a relative decrease in blood pressure with an increase in the heart amplitude at question No. 7. This question was: “Did you ever overcharge a customer?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.” However, after the series, this question was discussed with him briefly, and he did make mention of the fact that there had been some trouble at his nightclub with regard to the waitresses and big bills. This could be interpreted as a possible deception pattern in that he hedged with regard to the question “Did you ever overcharge a customer.” The total chart minutes of series No. 6 was 2 minutes 50 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant findings on series 6?

Mr. HERNDON. The only significant finding being that the control question 7 displays a more significant variation than his response to the relevant questions. There are no others.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now given us then all the significant findings on series 6?

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are now placing the designation Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 on series No. 7.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you start again, Mr. Herdon, with the relevant questions and tell us the answers and the responses thereto with any significant findings?

Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 7 contains four relevant questions.

Question No. 2: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 4: “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 6: “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 8: “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at the jail?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

There was one other question asked which I consider irrelevant. However, it is of value to the series, and I will make mention of it, question No. 9: “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”

With regard to overall interpretation of series No. 7, I first noticed there is a physiological deviation to Mr. Ruby’s response to question No. 1 which was “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully.” However, my notes indicate that Mr. Ruby talked and said “Yes, I do,” and by actually speaking several words it is believed that this caused the variation in the tracings.

Mr. SPECTER. Will movement or speaking cause a variation in the tracings ordinarily, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Body movements or speaking any phrase or sentence would certainly cause changes in the physiological patterns as displayed on the polygraph. I made notation of that, however, and that explains the changes. On question No. 2, Mr. Ruby did show a significant drop in the relative blood pressure. This question pertained to: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” I asked him about this question later when he responded “No,” and I noticed a physiological change. He advised that there was some man by the name of John Rutledge, and he made an association with proceedings at the trial which I have reason to believe this gentleman, John Rutledge, differed somewhat with what Ruby stated as to when he went to the synagogue.

Due to the nature of this change, however, it is possible that it was caused by a body motion that I failed to detect during the actual response.

I notice that the cardio pen dropped all the way down and hit what we call the limit screws. This frequently is caused by a sudden rapid shift in his body position, and this change could have been caused by a body movement.

With regard to the other relevant questions in this series, question 4, question 6, and question 8, there was no significant deviation from his normal physiological patterns.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings, in series No. 7?

Mr. HERNDON. There was a significant change in his breathing pattern and also a slight decrease in his blood pressure when I asked him the question “Did you attend the synagogue regularly?”

However, this is a control type question, and as later discussed with him, there was some area of doubt in his mind as to whether he attended the synagogue regularly as much as he would like to. The total chart minutes on series 7 was 2 minutes 55 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the relevant findings on chart No. 7?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I have.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I have affixed Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 to series No. 8.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I hand it to you with the request that you give us the findings there starting with the relevant questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 8 contained five relevant questions.

No. 2: “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

I notice in the pneumograph tracing some deviation. However, by interpretation of the chart and the length of that particular question, it again appears obvious that there was some hesitation on his part in answering the question due to its length.

However, there was no other noticeable significant physiological deviation in his response to that question.

Question No. 4: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a member of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is no significant change in his normal physiological pattern.

Question No. 6: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” This again is a relatively long question. However, it did not appear to disturb him, and there is no noticable physiological deviation in his response to this question.

Question No. 8: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Here again there is no noticable significant deviation in his physiological pattern.

Question No. 9: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?” Here again this is a relatively long question and there was a little hesitation on his part in answering it, causing a change in the pneumograph tracing. However, there is no significant deviation with regard to his overall physiological pattern when he responded to this question. In general, series 8 shows no significant deviation from his normal physiological pattern. The total chart minutes was 2 minutes 50 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now then given us all of the relevant findings on series No. 8, correct?

Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you the chart designated series No. 9 marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10, and ask you if there was any unique system employed in that series.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.)

Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there was at this point in the interrogation. Realizing the Commission had a large number of questions they wanted to ask, it was decided at this point, in view of the fact that we had asked the main critical questions, to proceed with what I call direct interrogation, that is that each and every one of the questions asked is a relevant question, and that there are no irrelevant questions or control questions asked.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed then to give us the results of those questions.

Mr. HERNDON. Did you want me to itemize each and every one of these questions or read them out? They are all relevant questions and a matter of record.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Mr. HERNDON. Series 9 contains 7 questions, all being relevant.

Question No. 1: “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 2: “Did you use your post office mail box to do any business with Mexico or Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 3: “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 4: “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”

Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 5: “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried $2,200 in cash on you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 6: “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 7: “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the underworld?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

In interpreting his chart with regard to this particular series of questions, there is no noticeable significant deviation in his physiological pattern except at question No. 6. According to my notation on the chart, Ruby moved his head at this point, and there was a deviation caused by this movement in his blood pressure tracing and also in his pneumograph tracing. His heart rate maintained a consistent rate of approximately 66 to 72 heart beats per minute throughout this series. No significant changes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the total time on that series?

Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes on series 9 was 2 minutes 15 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant factors from that series reading?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you are going to proceed with series 9A which is a continuation of the sheet marked Herndon Exhibit No. 10.

Mr. HERNDON. This was done in order to save time inasmuch as the interrogation was becoming rather lengthy at this point, and Mr. Specter indicated he was anxious to proceed and to complete the rest of the questions that we had agreed upon with all those parties that were interested in this interrogation.

Series No. 9A again is a series of relevant questions.

Question No. 8: “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union influence?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 9: “Did any long distance telephone calls which you made before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the assassination?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 10: “Did any of your long distance telephone calls concern the shooting of Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Mr. SPECTER. What number question was that again?

Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 10.

Question No. 11: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of a trial?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 12: “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Question No. 13: “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 14: “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Question No. 15: “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Tippit at your club?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”

Mr. SPECTER. On the designations series 9 and 9A, Mr. Herndon, did you loosen up the cuff on his arm during the two series?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I deliberately loosened or actually I completely took off all pressure off his arm to allow him to have complete circulation in his arm and to give him a rest period before proceeding with series 9A. I believe the transcript will show that I asked him if he was feeling all right and if he was ready to proceed before going into series 9A. A review of series 9A with regard to Ruby’s polygrams fails to reveal any significant physiological reaction with regard to his responses to these relevant questions.

At this point, Mr. Specter, I might add that we are getting into an area now where it is possible that Ruby is getting somewhat cuff weary and getting somewhat tired and becoming somewhat immune to the polygraph technique. I believe we both realized this.

However, we wanted to ask these questions as a matter of record. The chart shows there is no stress or strain. However, it is entirely possible that he is becoming desensitized at this point.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings on series 9a?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; the total chart minutes for this particular series was 2 minutes 30 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you series No. 10 which is marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11, and ask you to start again with the relevant questions and give us the responses thereto and any significant findings.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.)

Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 10 again was mutually agreed upon by several of the people present during the examination. However, formally authorized by Mr. Specter of the President’s Commission. They are question No. 2 which is relevant: “Were you at the Parkland Hospital any time on Friday?” Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”

Question No. 3, which is considered relevant. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what you testified about?”

Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”

Question No. 4, which was originally recommended by Dr. Beavers and as agreed upon by Mr. Specter, was presented in this manner.

Question No. 4: “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby—could we go off the record here? I am a little confused on my notes at this point?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that while off the record, Mr. Herndon has referred to his notes and also to the transcript of testimony taken by the court reporter at the time the polygraph examination was administered, to be sure of the questions and answers here, and that as Mr. Herndon points out, his notes correspond with the transcript.

Will you then proceed Mr. Herndon to state those questions, answers and responses, if any?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; No. 4 was: “Have members of your family been physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby did reply “No,” and then said: “May I interrupt?” He was instructed by me to just sit perfectly still and we will discuss the questions later. There was a deviation in his physiological tracings with regard to this question. However, these must be interpreted to the fact that he actually spoke a sentence in response to the question.

Question No. 5 was: “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby failed to make any reply or response to this particular question. It is noted that there was no significant change in his physiological tracings in any of the components following my asking this question.

Question No. 6 was: “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” Here again Mr. Ruby failed to make any verbal reply to the question. Looking at the polygrams produced, it is noted that there is no significant physiological response with regard to this question. The examiner made a notation on his chart that it appeared that Mr. Ruby was visibly pondering the answer to these questions. However, decided not to answer them as instructed either yes or no period.

Question No. 7 is a relevant question: “Did Blackie Harrison speak to you just before you shot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is a slight increase in his relative blood pressure. However, this is not considered significant inasmuch as it is at the end of the series, and it is not unusual for slight increase in blood pressure to be portrayed as the series prolongs into the later questions. It is not considered significant.

The total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 25 seconds.

In discussion of the two questions in which Mr. Ruby failed to reply, I made notations on the chart that he felt the questions were difficult to answer yes or no, and that he didn’t know how to answer them.

Mr. SPECTER. By those questions do you mean the ones——

Mr. HERNDON. I am referring to question 5 and 6 in which he did not specifically reply verbally.

Mr. SPECTER. That is “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?”

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”

Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby answer those in a preliminary session?

Mr. HERNDON. During the preliminary session he did answer those questions.

Mr. SPECTER. What answer to each question did he give?

Mr. HERNDON. To the question “Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what you did?” he replied “Yes.”

In regard to the question “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the significant findings on series No. 10?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. I will now move to series No. 11 which we will mark for this record as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12.

(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you start on series No. 11, giving the relevant questions, answers and any physiological deviation?

Mr. HERNDON. These questions on Series 11 were primarily asked after a conversation between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Specter at which time Mr. Ruby indicated he wanted some additional questions asked of him.

It was finally agreed upon that we would ask the three following questions.

No. 1 just to establish identity “Are you Jack Ruby?” in which he replied “Yes.”

Question No. 2: “Do you consider yourself to be a 100-percent American patriot?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”

And question No. 3 “Is all of the testimony given by you today the complete truth?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”

This particular series began at 8:57 p.m., and a review of the physiological responses to these three particular questions indicate that they are not significant. It is believed by the examiner at this point, although Mr. Ruby said he was not tired in his general conversation with the examiner, that he was probably somewhat fatigued, and he was no longer displaying the usual physiological responses expected during the earlier phases of the examination.

The total chart minutes of series 11 is 1 minute 10 seconds. I do not consider anything significant to these particular responses other than the fact that we obliged Mr. Ruby in asking them.

Mr. SPECTER. Was this polygraph examination excessive with respect to length in your opinion, Mr. Herndon?

Mr. HERNDON. Well, it would greatly depend on Mr. Ruby’s physical and mental condition of course. A doctor was in attendance during the examination, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Ruby during the examination how he felt and whether he wanted to proceed. I asked him on several occasions if he would like to take a break or have a drink of water. I cannot specifically state that it did or did not appear to hinder his health or cause him any undue fatigue.

However, I did hear the doctor indicate that there was no undue physical stress or strain on Mr. Ruby during the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Up until the points where you have indicated there were some signs of tiredness, did Mr. Ruby appear to be responding in a satisfactory manner?

Mr. HERNDON. I would say during the first several series of questions, and based on the presumption again that Mr. Ruby was rationally sound and competent during this phase of the examination, that he responded very normally, and the polygraph examination proceeded without any technical difficulties.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Ruby given periodic breaks throughout the course of the examination in addition to that lengthy one between series 4 and series 5?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes; he was given a number of breaks and there was no time when he was asked a long series of questions inasmuch as the total chart, minutes on my charts indicate none of them went beyond 3 minutes, which is certainly considered well within standard series total chart minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President’s Commission?

Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I would like to make a few additional comments with regard to this polygraph examination, in view of the fact that it was somewhat unique and unusual. I think these factors should be somewhat considered in the overall evaluation of the polygraph examination.

First of all, Ruby has obviously been extensively interviewed by law enforcement officers and by the Commission and other people, and there has been a considerable length of time lapse since the time that the instant offense occurred of him shooting Oswald. These factors of length of time and considerable previous interrogation would tend to detract or negate any specific or definite conclusion that could be rendered with regard to the polygraph examination.

The fact that there were other personnel in the room would tend to negate a valid polygraph technique. However, here again I did mention that this did not appear to bother Mr. Ruby. But it should be considered and made a matter of record.

One other point I would like to mention, and that is the large number of relevant questions asked Mr. Ruby during this particular examination. This is not general standard procedure. However, I realize that the President’s Commission wanted to cover many facets, and that it was mutually agreed upon that we would ask the questions that the Commission had originally drawn up for this particular interrogation. In normal polygraph procedure it is usual to keep the relevant questions down to perhaps several specific critical relevant questions and work strictly on those, and in this particular examination we had a large number of relevant questions to ask.

I think these are all factors that should be considered in the overall evaluation of Mr. Ruby’s polygraph examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Herndon.

TESTIMONY OF BRECK WALL (BILLY RAY WILSON)

The testimony of Breck Wall was taken at 2:13 p.m., on August 5, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is being taken at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev. May the record further show it is now 2:13 Pacific daylight time on Wednesday, August 5, 1964. Present is Mr. Breck Wall who has appeared in response to letter notification and also telephone notification.

Mr. Wall, the President’s Commission has asked you to appear here today to testify concerning any knowledge which you may have of Mr. Jack Ruby, his associates, background, and his activities relating to the events of November 22 through November 24, 1963. With that preliminary statement of purpose, I will ask you to rise and raise your right hand, if you would, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. WALL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WALL. My legal name is Billy Ray Wilson but I have used professionally Breck Wall for the last 7 or 8 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you receive a letter of notification asking you to appear here today for your deposition?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that letter contain within it the Executive order creating the President’s Commission and a copy of the rules and regulations for taking of depositions by the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And you understand that if you wish, you may be represented by counsel here today?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to have an attorney with you today?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that letter?

Mr. WALL. Monday night at home. I was performing at the Castaways and a friend of mine signed the receipt on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Under the regulations you are entitled to 3 days’ notice. Are you willing to proceed with this deposition today without having that notice?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, Mr. Wall?

Mr. WALL. Producer; performer.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed at the present time?

Mr. WALL. At the Castaways in Las Vegas.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the nature of your duties in connection with your employment at the Castaways?

Mr. WALL. Well, I perform each night. I don’t understand what you mean really.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of performing do you do?

Mr. WALL. Comedy; musical comedy.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been engaged in that type of activity?

Mr. WALL. About 6 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation before you became an entertainer?

Mr. WALL. College student.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. WALL. Twenty-seven.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. WALL. Well, I only had 1 year of college, University of Texas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. WALL. Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live, in a general way, up to the present time?

Mr. WALL. Well, I have lived in Freeport, Tex., that is where I was raised, and Dallas, New York City, Jacksonville, Fla., Orlando, Fla., and here.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in New York City?

Mr. WALL. In 1954 through 1957.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation at that time?

Mr. WALL. I worked as a doorman at Luchow’s on 14th Street.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you live at those various cities in Florida?

Mr. WALL. In between—in the year of 1957 and 1958. I came to Dallas in November of 1958, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it specifically that you lived in Florida then?

Mr. WALL. It was in the first part of 1958 and the latter part of 1957, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Freeman, Tex.?

Mr. WALL. Freeport.

Mr. SPECTER. Freeport, Tex.?

Mr. WALL. Through school until I graduated in 1953.

Mr. SPECTER. From high school?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you attended the University of Texas in Austin for a year?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live from 1954 until the time you went to New York City?

Mr. WALL. Then New York City from Austin.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go directly from Austin to New York City?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go directly from New York City?

Mr. WALL. To Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. SPECTER. Where you lived for the balance of the time up until November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. Right; sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you went to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you first went to Dallas in November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. I was ill at the time and I had to stay with the McKennas. I was sick at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. And where do the McKennas live?

Mr. WALL. Currently they live in Galveston, Tex. They moved from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the first names of the McKennas?

Mr. WALL. Thomas J. McKenna.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there another McKenna?

Mr. WALL. There are—you mean as far as children?

Mr. SPECTER. You say you lived with the McKennas. I take it there was more than one McKenna or was there only one?

Mr. WALL. Mrs. McKenna and three children.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay with them following the time you joined them in November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 2 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you next live?

Mr. WALL. I can’t think of the name of the street. In Dallas. I lived in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. With others, or by yourself?

Mr. WALL. By myself.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to know the McKennas?

Mr. WALL. When I was going to high school, I would spend the summer with my family and they lived next door to my family.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you spent the summer with your family who lived next door to the McKennas, was that in Dallas?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you live with when you went to school in Freeport?

Mr. WALL. With my grandmother who has since deceased.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas, Tex., after November of 1958?

Mr. WALL. When I moved in November of 1958 there, I stayed until I just moved.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you left?

Mr. WALL. We left in January of 1964 to go to Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean by that?

Mr. WALL. The company; the show I am in.

Mr. SPECTER. Which show is that?

Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in Houston then?

Mr. WALL. We were in Houston for 12 weeks and then from Houston we came out to Las Vegas.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When, to the best of your recollection, did you first meet Mr. Ruby?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 3½ years ago.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your becoming acquainted with him?

Mr. WALL. We were having financial trouble at a club we owned called the Playbill.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean?

Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson, my partner. We needed a place to go to do a show. Jack Ruby offered a very lucrative offer to play his new club. It was then called the Sovereign Club which later became the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the nature of the lucrative offer which Mr. Ruby made to you?

Mr. WALL. Well, I think he was going to pay us, I think, I’m not sure, $125 a week plus we were on a small percentage of the club.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you play for Mr. Ruby at the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 8 weeks. Maybe less.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened, if anything, to terminate that arrangement?

Mr. WALL. We got into an argument over a contract that I had signed stating that I would perform the show for one night for around $2,200.

Mr. SPECTER. What show were you supposed to perform for one night?

Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up.

Mr. SPECTER. For whom?

Mr. WALL. I don’t recall the name of the organization. It was a nurses’ organization.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that show supposed to be performed?

Mr. WALL. In the ballroom of the Hotel Adolphus.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of your disagreement with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. WALL. He was in a financial bind because the show wasn’t working out like he thought and we were in a financial bind and needed the money and he would let us do it only if we would give him half. We couldn’t because we couldn’t.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean “we”? You still mean Joe Peterson and you?

Mr. WALL. Yes. And we called in the union man of our performing arts called AGVA.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that an abbreviation of?

Mr. WALL. American Guild of Variety Artists. And the AGVA man sided with Jack and we got into an argument wherein Jack punched Joe in the mouth and broke off a tooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Joe Peterson, that is?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. And we left that night. I might also add in the record that the man, the name of the man representing our union, was named James Dolen who was arrested later, some months later, by the FBI.

Mr. SPECTER. On what charge, if you know?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know he was running some sort of bingo game or something illegal in Louisiana.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform that show Bottoms Up?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. Jack Ruby and Jim Dolen took the show over and made our kids perform the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the same troupe then performing the show except for you and Mr. Peterson?

Mr. WALL. The only one we have now with us that did the show with us over at the Adolphus that particular night is Bill Fanning who is in our show.

Mr. SPECTER. After that 8-week connection with Mr. Ruby what later association, if any, did you have with him?

Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t speak to Jack for about, I would say, around 6 months but he and Mr. Peterson became good friends again because they have the type personalities that flare up and forget; and I don’t—I have a mind like an elephant—and they started speaking so, therefore, I started speaking and going back to the club which he changed into a stripper club called the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work for Mr. Ruby again?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then from that time on you knew him as a friend and acquaintance in the Dallas area?

Mr. WALL. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation from the time you left Mr. Ruby’s until you left Dallas in January of 1964?

Mr. WALL. We reopened the Playbill Club for about 4 months and then we went back to the—I’m sorry—then we went to the Maple Theater, did a show for about 6 weeks called Mr. Wonderful, then back to the Adolphus Hotel where we stayed.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do at the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up. Performed it in the Century Room.

Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see Mr. Ruby during the years of 1961, 1962, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Well, after we lost the Playbill again for a second time and we closed the show at the Maple Theater, then we were right across the street from where Jack had his club and Jack got a haircut at the barbershop in the hotel, ate in the hotel restaurant, consequently I think that is when he started—he and Joe started being friends and I started seeing him a lot and became good friends; then when we started at the Adolphus in 1962, maybe the latter part of 1961, we started speaking and being good friends. We would go over there sometimes three or four times a week just to see the show and the girls over there which we were good friends with.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge, did Jack Ruby ever associate with any of the criminal element?

Mr. WALL. He always reminded me of a gangster but I have never seen him with anyone.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did he always remind you of a gangster?

Mr. WALL. Just the way he talks, you know, he just reminds me of a real hood. Still I have never seen him with anyone that you would call a criminal in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from his appearance and the way he talks do you have any factual reason for saying that he appears to be a hood or gangster?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby ever a member of any subversive organization or any group which advocates the forceful overthrow of the United States Government?

Mr. WALL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any members of his family or friends ever members of any subversive organization?

Mr. WALL. I only met one relative of his which was his sister, Eva, or Ava, however you would say it. I just met her casually.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her last name?

Mr. WALL. I really don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Grant?

Mr. WALL. Grant. That is right. She ran his club on—what street is it? I have to think of the club for a minute. It is right next door to the B&B.

Mr. SPECTER. The Vegas Club?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Thank you. That was the only time. I have only been out to the Vegas Club maybe twice in the whole time I have been in Dallas but I would see her at the B&B restaurant eating after she had closed her club.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Only after he had shot the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald together at any time?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. He knew most of the policemen on the police force.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby with Officer Tippit?

Mr. WALL. I don’t know what he looks like.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who Officer Tippit is?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. He was the officer who was shot and killed the day of the assassination.

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities on that day to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. WALL. That was very easy to remember. We went down to the Adolphus marquee.

Mr. SPECTER. “We” meaning?

Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and also with us was Nancy Austin, who is in our show, and Kenny Jerome, who is in our show. We watched President Kennedy drive by and I was listening to it on the radio as he was driving and when he passed us he was going 30 miles an hour whereas he had been going 10 miles an hour so we missed him. With all the excitement and everything we didn’t get a good look at him so we went upstairs.

Mr. SPECTER. Your view of the motorcade from the Adolphus was from the marquee of the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the Presidential limousine passed the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. WALL. We wanted to get a better look at the President so Joe Peterson and myself decided to go out to the airport because when he was out there, when he first arrived in Dallas, he stayed out there I think 30 minutes longer than he was supposed to, shaking hands with the people. We thought he might do it again. We ran upstairs to change clothes. It was a very cold day. We needed to put on some warm clothes. We went upstairs to change clothes and go out to the airport. We always left our television on because we have a dog and it sort of keeps him calm. When we opened the door into the bedroom they announced over the television that the President had been assassinated. Joe went down to the—as far as I know he went down to the Book Depository to see what it looked like and I stayed in the bedroom and watched the television to find out what was, you know, going on. We stayed there all that night and we departed for Galveston to get away from Dallas the next day, which was Saturday, at around 3 or 4 in the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of Friday night?

Mr. WALL. We stayed and watched television. I didn’t move from the television set.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner that night?

Mr. WALL. In the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to bed on the evening of November 22, if you recall?

Mr. WALL. As far as I know I didn’t go to bed until 5 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do all that night?

Mr. WALL. Watched television.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the television stations running around the clock?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday, November 23, if you remember?

Mr. WALL. I would say around 8 o’clock, 9 o’clock. I woke up and watched television again.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you eat breakfast?

Mr. WALL. I went down to breakfast on Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Down to where?

Mr. WALL. The coffee shop.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Then I came right back up and watched television again until that afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you leave the hotel?

Mr. WALL. About 3 or 4 that afternoon we left for Galveston.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean?

Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. By what means did you go?

Mr. WALL. In our car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Saturday?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I called the McKennas to tell them we were coming down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Friday, the day before?

Mr. WALL. I’m sure I made telephone calls to each cast member telling them we would not perform until Monday or Tuesday, that Mr. Anderson didn’t know yet—he is the manager of the hotel—I’m sure I made quite a few calls that day.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you had a conversation with Mr. Anderson concerning the closing of the show?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. He called us saying there wouldn’t be a show until Monday or Tuesday depending on when the funeral was. He didn’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his full name?

Mr. WALL. All I know is Andy Anderson. He has initials. I don’t know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What members of the cast did you call following your conversation with Mr. Anderson?

Mr. WALL. Everyone in the cast, and I may forget a few names. I can list them if you’d like.

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

Mr. WALL. Carl Tressler in Fort Worth. There would also be Eddie Parker, Bill Fanning, Suzanne Malone.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?

Mr. WALL. In Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does Carl Tressler live?

Mr. WALL. Fort Worth. All the cast members in our show live in Dallas with the exception of Carl Tressler and Eddie Parker who live in Fort Worth. All of my calls would have been in Fort Worth except for the long distance calls in Galveston. We have had so many castings I really can’t remember the rest of the people we had in our show. Possibly I made a call to Hazel Rippe, if she was still in the show.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been in Dallas also?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. All these telephone numbers would be in Dallas. Hazel wasn’t in our show. There is another phone number in Fort Worth, it was a girl dancer in our show by the name of Ryna Hradecky, who was a friend of Carl Tressler’s, so, therefore, I might have given a message to Carl to call Ryna because I couldn’t get her at home at that particular time but if I had any calls to Fort Worth it would be to Ryna also. There would be one or two other calls to Dallas which would be cast members but I really can’t think who was in the show.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you call Tom McKenna?

Mr. WALL. It would probably be, I would say, around 2 in the afternoon because we decided very quickly we were going. We just got tired of laying around the room watching television. I was beginning to get “buggy.”

Mr. SPECTER. Could you have called him as late as 5:30 that afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then the balance of that afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Watched television.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch television all the time up until the point when you left to go to Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. It would be 11 o’clock; somewhere around 11 o’clock.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is it from Dallas to Galveston?

Mr. WALL. I didn’t make the call from Dallas to Galveston at 2—it must have been 5:30—because it only takes 4½ hours.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the distance?

Mr. WALL. Around 200 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any stops en route?

Mr. WALL. Only for gas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner?

Mr. WALL. We didn’t have dinner. We don’t ever eat when we drive to Galveston, just go straight on down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you eat when you arrived at Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; we ate at the house.

Mr. SPECTER. At Mr. McKenna’s house?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston that night?

Mr. WALL. Well, just as nearly, as quickly as we arrived is when we got a telephone call from Jack Ruby. After I talked to him we sat and visited and then went to bed.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did the telephone call from Mr. Ruby last?

Mr. WALL. I would say it couldn’t have been more than only 5 minutes. Maybe 3½ minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. State, as precisely as you can recollect, exactly what Jack Ruby said to you and what you said to him during that telephone call.

Mr. WALL. Well, he was having trouble with the union, or AGVA, and I had been elected the president of the council, newly elected president, and we had not even had a meeting yet but—I can’t remember—he was having some sort of problems with his girls and the union was going to make him do something, which I didn’t think was right. I told him I would help him out and make sure his case was presented correctly.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the union trying to make him do?

Mr. WALL. I don’t recall. I really don’t know but—I wasn’t going to be on his side, but I was going to be sure it was presented correctly, that we would get his angle as much as the union’s, the girl that was reporting him or whatever the circumstances were.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you friends with Mr. Ruby at this time?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. He was very upset the President was assassinated and he called Abe Weinstein or Bernie Weinstein, he called them some names for staying open Friday night.

Mr. SPECTER. What club did they run?

Mr. WALL. They—I don’t know which one owns which. One owns the Theater Lounge and the other owns the Colony Club, and he was very upset that he had closed and they stayed open. He thought it wasn’t right and he wanted to know when I would return to Dallas and I told him probably Monday or Tuesday and he said, well, when I got in to town would I call him, which I said I would. He asked how everything was. I told him fine and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else he said during that telephone conversation?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else that you said to him during that call?

Mr. WALL. Only if I told him why I left Dallas. He asked what I was doing in Galveston. I told him I just wanted to get away for a couple of days.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention Lee Harvey Oswald in that telephone call?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention anything about any assassin or the assassin whoever he might be?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. The only thing that he said which would be important to the Commission was that he was very upset that the other clubs had decided to stay open and that they did not have the decency to close on such a day and that he thought out of respect they should close. That is the only thing I recall that he said that would be of any importance. The other things were about his business with the union, how we were and why we went down to Galveston.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about any intention he might have to do anything to Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that telephone call on the night of November 23, when was the last time you had talked to Ruby before that?

Mr. WALL. It could have been 2 or 3 days before. I don’t know, as I said. I saw him that often, you know. I do recall the last time I was in his club was the week before he shot Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you in his club during that week?

Mr. WALL. We had signed a contract to go into the Continental Hotel in Houston and we had the——

Mr. SPECTER. By “we” you mean you and Joe Peterson?

Mr. WALL. Right. Whenever I use “we” that is always Joe Peterson. And we had—the man who signed us felt pretty good about it and wanted to stay up beyond 12 o’clock, which is our curfew in Texas, and the only place that was open is the three exotic clubs and we decided to take Larry Grayson, booker of the Continental, to Jack Ruby’s club and let him see a stripper called Jada.

Mr. SPECTER. Weren’t the exotic clubs governed by the curfew?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I’m sorry. The Theater Lounge and the Colony Club did close—I’m sorry. They didn’t close. No; they didn’t. You could serve a beer called near beer which did not contain any alcohol, or they would serve coffee. They did not have to close at the same time the others closed; so we took Larry and went over there and stayed up until around 2 or 3. I recall the incident, by the way, that Jack was having trouble with the union about.

Mr. SPECTER. What incident was it?

Mr. WALL. It was something about the comic had to perform in between each stripper to lengthen the time of the show and where he had lined up three strippers at one time and then a comic and then three strippers again. He was having trouble with time. He wanted to make the show continuous and this was the problem he was having, so the night that I went to the Carousel Club with Larry Grayson and Joe Peterson he, himself, got on stage and entertained for 30 minutes with a raffle and I recall that Larry turned to me and said—every time that Jack would do something he would try and be very funny—every time he would do something he would turn to me and say. “Is that all right, Breck?” and Larry turned to me and said, “He thinks a great deal of you. Every time he does anything he turns to you,” and I said, “Yes.” I definitely remember that. That was the problem of trying to make——

Mr. SPECTER. What night was that?

Mr. WALL. It was at least a week before, maybe not—maybe not quite a week.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall the specific night that was?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I can’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that time when had you last seen Ruby?

Mr. WALL. I really don’t know, sir. I don’t think probably I saw him at all until after the President had been shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I’m going back, before the time you said you had this conversation with him on that Saturday night when you were in Galveston. You saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club some time about a week before the assassination?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When, prior to the time you were in the Carousel Club a week before the assassination, had you last seen Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. Possibly on the street or something. I had gone up to the club a week or two before that.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you discussed this problem concerning the American Guild of Variety Artists with Jack Ruby prior to that telephone conversation on November 23?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you discussed it with him before?

Mr. WALL. He had called me——

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Mr. WALL. Possibly 2 weeks before the assassination—telling me his problem and wanting to know when it would be brought up at the meeting, and I told him that we usually met the 15th of each month and that at the next meeting I would—I’m sorry. I made an error. We meet every Thursday. Every Thursday there was a union meeting and the 15th is when we meet privately, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an official capacity with the union, that is, were you an officer?

Mr. WALL. Well, I was an officer as being elected the president of the inter-union. In other words, all the performers, if there was a complaint that some performer had done something wrong and the management said that he was right and the performer said that they were right, then the performers themselves elected a committee of about six that would determine who was right, and this was the committee and I really don’t even know the correct name of the committee. They would judge who was right and wrong and what would be done about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any official standing on the committee which was to take up Jack Ruby’s problem?

Mr. WALL. I don’t understand what you mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you responsible in any official way for the committee which was to consider the problem Jack Ruby had with the guild?

Mr. WALL. My capacity was to make sure that everything was presented correctly and this was the only thing that Jack was after me to do is to make sure his side of the story was heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it up to you to make the decision on who was right and who was wrong?

Mr. WALL. It was up to the committee, six members.

Mr. SPECTER. You were one of the members of the committee?

Mr. WALL. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Jack Ruby first discuss his problem with you?

Mr. WALL. I would say around 2 weeks before the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he next discuss the problem with you?

Mr. WALL. He called me a couple of times to see if we had had a meeting or not. He would call and I would tell him; no.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that by telephone?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he would call me at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many times did he call you after he first discussed it with you approximately 2 weeks before the assassination?

Mr. WALL. I would say about two times.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he make those telephone calls to you?

Mr. WALL. In the afternoon.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long before the assassination were those calls made?

Mr. WALL. Well, the last one was the Saturday night, midnight the last call came, that was the main reason he was calling me was to find out if we had had a meeting.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you once or twice between the first time he talked to you about the guild problem and the time he called you in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. About twice.

Mr. SPECTER. When did those two telephone calls occur, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. WALL. In the afternoon. That was the only time to get me.

Mr. SPECTER. What dates?

Mr. WALL. I can’t recall any dates.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss any thing else in any of those two telephone calls other than the specific problem with the guild?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had Mr. Ruby called you at Galveston prior to the time he completed the call shortly after your arrival at Galveston on that Saturday night?

Mr. WALL. I’m sorry. Had he——?

Mr. SPECTER. Did he just call you the first time and make that connection with you?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Otherwise my mother would have said that she received a long distance call.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say your mother——

Mr. WALL. Nonnie. Mrs. McKenna.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. McKenna did not refer to any prior call to you?

Mr. WALL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Mr. Ruby got your telephone number in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I left my telephone number where I would be in Galveston with the operator in Dallas, which I do every time I go out of town so they will know how to contact me.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your purpose in leaving your telephone number in that manner?

Mr. WALL. Well, I get quite a few calls and the main reason I left it was because Mr. Anderson, who was the manger of the hotel, hadn’t decided what day to come back to work, Monday or Tuesday, therefore, I needed to know so, therefore, I left the telephone number.

Mr. SPECTER. After you completed your telephone conversation with Jack Ruby on that Saturday night, November 23, what did you do next?

Mr. WALL. As far as I can remember I had a sandwich and visited with the folks for about 45 minutes, then went to bed because I was kind of tired.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken on Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. WALL. I don’t know the precise time. I do know it was about—it couldn’t have been more than 10 minutes before Jack shot Oswald because I had just gotten up and walked in the bedroom and was watching it in the folks’ bedroom, so whatever time Jack shot Oswald I was only up 10 minutes beforehand.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe on the television screen at that time?

Mr. WALL. Nothing at all to relate it was Jack.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know it was Jack at the time you saw the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of the man did you see on the television screen?

Mr. WALL. It all happened so quick I didn’t see anything except I understood Jack had been shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Understood who had been shot?

Mr. WALL. I’m sorry, that Oswald had been shot and that—I watched the interview with the policeman saying he knew who it was but could not say publicly who it was. We waited around and, I would say, within a matter of 15 minutes they announced who it was. It seems to me that quick.

Mr. SPECTER. And who did they announce that it was?

Mr. WALL. Jack Ruby, owner of a stripper club called the Carousel.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction, if any, to that?

Mr. WALL. Well, it was a shock. That is all I can say. It was a real shock.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for the balance of that Sunday afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Well, I would say within 30 minutes to an hour we received a call from the Washington Post representative who, I believe, was in Dallas at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that representative of the Washington Post happen to call you?

Mr. WALL. I have no idea.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what his name was?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything?

Mr. WALL. Well, I was still in shock. I told him that I had talked to Jack over the telephone and he asked what we had said and I told him and he said: “Well, can you tell me a little about him?” And I was at that time having an argument with Mr. Peterson on what to do, you know, keep your mouth shut, or, you know, say what you had to say.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mr. Peterson’s view?

Mr. WALL. He said to keep my mouth shut, he did not want to get involved in any way, and that the right people would come to us and for us not to say anything so——

Mr. SPECTER. What was your view about that subject?

Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t know. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I would say mine was the same way. I was kind of scared, to be honest.

Mr. SPECTER. Why were you scared?

Mr. WALL. Just when people start calling you long distance you get seared. You don’t want to get involved in anything, particularly if you didn’t have anything to do with it. Then the next telephone call we got was from Dick Hitt, who is a man on the—a columnist for the Dallas Times Herald who knew I was a very close friend.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you known Mr. Hitt before that telephone call?

Mr. WALL. Oh, yes; ever since I have been in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Hitt say to you?

Mr. WALL. He wanted to know about—he wanted me to talk to his editor or someone about Jack, to find out what kind of a person he was and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to his editor?

Mr. WALL. We did but very coldly. Joe talked to the editor.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him?

Mr. WALL. I talked to Dick Hitt but whenever they called back the man called back and said: “Dick Hitt said for me to call you.” Joe got on the phone and said: “No, I don’t know anything.” I have a correction to make. The first call that we received was from the Dallas Morning News. The second call we got was from the Washington Post and the last call we got was from Dick Hitt.

Mr. SPECTER. Who called you from the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. WALL. I would say right now as far as I can remember it was Hugh Ainsworth because he also knew I was a very good friend of Jack’s.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the conversation between you and Mr. Ainsworth?

Mr. WALL. The conversation was that Jack had called me and—Hugh and I were good speaking friends. Not close friends, but we had talked a great deal—of course, this being the first person I had talked to that had also known Jack, we were just in a conversation. I told him: “Yes, I had received a call,” you know, I was sort of outspoken in discussing it with Hugh. Joe got kind of angry and said we should not meddle in any way at all and so the Washington Post called after that and we were sort of cool and when Dick Hitt called we said we knew nothing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any other telephone calls?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on that Sunday?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you call?

Mr. WALL. I called Nancy Austin, who is a performer in our show, to find out how to get hold of Phil Burleson.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was Phil Burleson?

Mr. WALL. He was my attorney.

Mr. SPECTER. How long had he been your attorney?

Mr. WALL. Since I arrived in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the purpose of your wanting to get Mr. Burleson’s telephone number?

Mr. WALL. Well, Phil also knew Jack and I wanted to see if he was going to represent Jack or if he could or wanted to or to see if he could get in to see Jack to see what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you do that?

Mr. WALL. Well, as I say, I was in shock. I was upset because I liked Jack very much. He has been a very good friend of ours even with our ups and downs. Just to make sure everything was all right. To find out what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Had anybody requested you to contact an attorney on behalf of Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That thought came to you on your own initiative?

Mr. WALL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss it with Mr. Peterson?

Mr. WALL. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Peterson say about that telephone call?

Mr. WALL. It was fine with him. The main thing that Joe objected to, he did not want to be in print about saying anything or doing anything that would jeopardize our position at the Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know that Jack Ruby had other attorneys who represented him regularly?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have any other attorney, to your knowledge?

Mr. WALL. I have never known him to have any attorney at all.

Mr. SPECTER. That is prior to the time of the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls on that Sunday?

Mr. WALL. Well, any other phone calls I would have made would have been to cast members.

Mr. SPECTER. For what purpose?

Mr. WALL. To tell them that we still didn’t know we were going to do the show or anything about it, just be prepared to come in Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, whenever they were notified.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any other specific calls you made on that Sunday, November 24?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of the day?

Mr. WALL. Watched television.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night?

Mr. WALL. Late. It was very late.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper?

Mr. WALL. In the house.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the house at all that Sunday?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I didn’t go out at all.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arise on the following Monday?

Mr. WALL. I would say Monday night. I really don’t, to be honest with you, I don’t know what time I arrived back. I don’t know if we performed Monday or Tuesday. From all recollection it was Tuesday we performed. I don’t know. It could have been Tuesday afternoon that we got back.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas?

Mr. WALL. I don’t remember, sir, now what day it was we left.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen Jack Ruby after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see him?

Mr. WALL. It was the first Saturday or the second Saturday after the assassination I was in the hotel room watching the football game and it was in the afternoon and Sheriff Bill Decker called me and said that Jack was very depressed and needed some cheering up and wanted to know if I would come down, so I went down.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after Sheriff Decker’s call did you arrive at the jail?

Mr. WALL. I would say between half an hour and 45 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at the jail?

Mr. WALL. I would say about 20 minutes, maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. State as specifically as you can recollect the nature of your conversation with Jack Ruby indicating what he said to you and what you said to him?

Mr. WALL. Well, I wasn’t the only person there. There were two other people there, one man I don’t know—I have seen him around before. The other man was, I’m sure you have it in your records, he was the partner of Jack in the club who tried to run it after Jack had shot Oswald. I can’t think of the man’s name.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the first name of either of those men?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. I know them by face.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anyone else present besides the four of you?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; except for the two policemen that were inside the tank where Jack was. He was inside the tank.

Mr. SPECTER. What conversation ensued while you were present with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. WALL. Well, the main thing Jack brought out was he thought himself correct in shooting Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. For what reason?

Mr. WALL. A far as I can remember he didn’t give a reason. He just said, you know. “I was right in doing it.”

Mr. SPECTER. Did any one disagree with him?

Mr. WALL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Why not?

Mr. WALL. Well, they just didn’t say anything against him. I can’t remember the incident too well. I do know that Jack was very upset and the two men, on the outside, didn’t argue with him at all in anything that he said, and they said they wouldn’t. I remember them making the comment to each other they weren’t going to upset him, and whatever he said they would just nod yes to and would agree with; they weren’t going to get him upset.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Jack, if anything?

Mr. WALL. I talked to him about Phil.

Mr. SPECTER. Phil who?

Mr. WALL. Burleson. “I was wondering if Phil came up to see you,” and, “I asked him to come up,” and “If you can get him to represent you as one of the attorneys,” and everything. “I think it would be very good for you since he was at one time the assistant district attorney.” I said, “I think he would do a good job for you. He is very honest, very aboveboard,” and Jack said, “Yes, he came to see me and I think he would do well and I would like to use him if I can.” Then I asked him how they were treating him in jail and he said how nice they were to him and he asked me what I was doing. I told him I was watching the football game and Sheriff Decker said I could come down and see him. Then he asked me specifically did I want to get involved in the case in any way, or something like that, and I told him under the circumstances please don’t ever use our name or anything. It’s not that I didn’t like him. It was just that it might ruin our careers that we worked very hard for. He gave me his word he would never use us, say anything about us in any publication or anything. This was very true. While we were in Houston he needed money and wrote an article for a series of newspapers and he stated in the article, toward the end he made a call to Joe Feder and Beck Wald, which I thought was very nice of him and all the other circumstances in the article that I could see he used the names of the people.

Mr. SPECTER. Joe Feder was really Joe Peterson?

Mr. WALL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And Beck Wald was really you?

Mr. WALL. Me; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything more about the conversation that you had at the jail on the Saturday you refer to?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. It was the first time I had seen him since the assassination and it was just, you know, kind of strange meeting. There wasn’t any fun in it at all, you know, like laughs. Sheriff Decker told me he wanted to be cheered up. It was not like that at all. It was a very sad thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby since?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I have gotten a few letters from Jack.

Mr. SPECTER. How many?

Mr. WALL. I would say about three.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did he write to you?

Mr. WALL. From the jail.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you received those letters?

Mr. WALL. In—I think I received two in Dallas and I would say one in Houston, and they were very simple letters, just how he was feeling and, you know, what he was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you respond?

Mr. WALL. Yes; I wrote him back and told him what we were doing and how we were doing and I hoped he was well.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you write to him?

Mr. WALL. Maybe three or four times. I don’t know. I do remember another thing we discussed while he was in the jail. He said he was writing—I remember two things—he was writing down his memoirs and wanted to do it into a story form and would I be interested in doing it for him. I told him I would see. And the other thing he mentioned to me is he had received a lot of telegrams and letters from all over the country saying he was correct in doing what he did, or he was wrong in doing what he did, or whatever it was. He was getting so many in he had no way of writing them back. He wanted to thank each and every one for writing to him and wanted to know if I would correspond with them on behalf of him and that is when I said, “I would rather not get involved in any way and you can understand why.” And he said, “Yes, I do.”

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any other contacts at all with Jack Ruby after November 24, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Only through corresponding letters.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now mentioned all of the contacts you have had with him?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21——

Mr. WALL. I have one. I’m sorry. I do have one. As I said, Phil Burleson is Joe’s and my attorney and, therefore, I would go see Phil every once in awhile just to give Jack a message of hello, that we are thinking of him, and to see how he was. We were all right and everything. I did ask Phil to do this for me. Every once in awhile I would do it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the contacts you have had with Ruby since November 24, 1963?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21, the day before the assassination in 1963, did you have occasion to talk by telephone to Tom McKenna on that day?

Mr. WALL. The day before?

Mr. SPECTER. The assassination?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all unless it was about football. I am a football fanatic. It was the day before. This would be Thursday, right?

Mr. SPECTER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said you had a telephone call with him at about 6:50 on that day?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; it wouldn’t because I call him quite frequently. I just made a telephone call to him day before yesterday. Unless it was just to say hello and everything. We did not decide to go down to Galveston until that afternoon, the day after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Edward Parker of Fort Worth?

Mr. WALL. Eddie Parker is—came to work for us for Bottoms Up at the Adolphus and he would help in costume changes and setting up the props. We had a portable stage which he would set up and get everything ready before the show would start. That would be about a year and a half, but we performed at the Playbill Club, we performed a show which he also helped us in, called Razzmataz was the name of the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall telephoning him on October 1st, 3d, and 4th, 1963?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; I would call him in any respect to the show. The only reason I would have anything to do with him would be to tell him whether we would do a television show, needed him there and needed Carl Tressler, who was in our show. They are roommates. Anytime I would call them would be in reference to the show.

Mr. SPECTER. You already mentioned you called him on November 22.

Mr. WALL. To tell him probably that the show had been canceled.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was that call made, if you recall?

Mr. WALL. Well, it would probably be around, I would say, 1 or 2 o’clock. As soon as Mr. Anderson told us we would not perform that night or Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been as late as 6 that evening?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been as I was going out of town to tell him I was leaving and would be in Galveston; if they needed to get hold of me to call the operator.

Mr. SPECTER. But you didn’t go to Galveston on Friday, November 22, did you?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; that was just to tell him we were not going to do a show that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas?

Mr. WALL. The only one that would be there would be his son who is 18 years old, George McKenna, who was working on a construction job at the Republic National Bank.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew anybody by the name of R. D. Matthews?

Mr. WALL. Only if that was the man I couldn’t think of in the previous statement. I said I knew their faces but not their names, but the name doesn’t ring a bell at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba?

Mr. WALL. I have never heard of anything like that at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anybody by the name of Henry Atcheson, A-t-c-h-e-s-o-n, or Henry Acteson, A-c-t-e-s-o-n?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone call from the Adolphus Hotel to anyone in Canada during March of 1964?

Mr. WALL. I can’t remember ever calling Canada. As I stated before to you the only one that I ever knew in Canada was Kay Sutton, who was a performer in our show who was somewhere in Canada.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know James F. Mahon?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he is my attorney, too.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to him on November 23, that is Saturday after the assassination?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; possibly.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if I may ask?

Mr. WALL. Well, to find out, possibly, if he knew anything about Jack; to see if he was going to represent Jack or anything. He also knew Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. This was the day before the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. WALL. Well, it could be any business thing. Phil handled most of our things but as things stand right now Jim Mahon handles everything for us, our bookkeeping and everything, so it could have been anything at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other calls on November 23, 1963, if you can remember?

Mr. WALL. The 23d was——

Mr. SPECTER. That is Saturday.

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I could have called any number of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to RI 8-1434?

Mr. WALL. That number—that could have been Jim Mahon.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Jim Mahon’s number Riverside 8-4361 or do you recall?

Mr. WALL. No; that is his number. I do know—Riverside, 1434, I don’t know, sir. I’m sure I placed quite a few calls that day. I talked to a lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have a financial interest with Jack Ruby in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WALL. No, sir; not as far as putting in our own money at all; only that we would retain a percentage of the club.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “retain a percentage of the club”?

Mr. WALL. For doing our shows there because we only received a small salary, as I said, $125 a week. He said he would give us a portion of the club.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you mean a percentage of the gross receipts or a percentage of the net receipts?

Mr. WALL. I mean a percent of the club, period.

Mr. SPECTER. Half ownership in the club?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that ever formalized into a written contract?

Mr. WALL. As far as I know it was, sir, but I don’t remember where the papers are. I think they were destroyed in the fire at the Playbill Club.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever get such an interest in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation or any other other Federal agency regarding your connection with Jack Ruby?

Mr. WALL. I have never been called into an office and interviewed at all. Possibly there were some men who came by and asked me a few questions but I can’t remember it. It was that vague. I do know Joe Peterson was interviewed by some representatives of the FBI.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think you may have been interviewed by the FBI, but you are not sure?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell the FBI anything about Ruby’s telephone call on the night of November 23 to you in Galveston?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; if they interviewed me I definitely told them about it because it was very important.

Mr. SPECTER. But you are just not sure whether or not they interviewed you?

Mr. WALL. I will tell you, things happened so fast. I definitely remember Joe came back and said, “Two representatives want to talk to you,” but I don’t remember ever talking to them.

Mr. SPECTER. You don’t have any specific recollection of ever talking to them or telling them about that telephone call from Jack Ruby on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you and I have a brief interview before this deposition started today?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And during the course of that interview did I ask you the outline of the questions which we have covered here on the record?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were your answers the same as you told me here this afternoon?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the President’s Commission?

Mr. WALL. Well, the only thing that I stated to you before is that previously I said that Jack and Joe got into a fight when he blew his stack but then on the other hand there was a time when we needed $300 very desperately and Jack in a matter of 10 minutes went over and got a loan on his own car for us so that the man does have feelings and he can flare up in 5 minutes and then forget about it, you know. I can’t, but he is one type of person who can. You never know what he is going to do next.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. WALL. That was the name of the gentleman who was visiting Jack at the same time I was that I could not remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that time in the jail have you ever talked to Ralph Paul?

Mr. WALL. Very, very little. Jack at one time has taken Joe and I to a bowling alley—I remember Ralph Paul was along—and took us for breakfast. We bowled a game but I still didn’t say seven or eight words to the man. I was very friendly but I still didn’t say anything to him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any effort to telephone Ralph Paul anytime on November 22 or 23?

Mr. WALL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Or November 24?

Mr. WALL. No, sir. I wouldn’t even know how to get ahold of the man.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, if you wish, we can make available the typed-up copy of this deposition for you to read and sign, or if you are willing, you can waive that signature which means that you will not read and sign the transcript. Do you have any preference on the subject?

Mr. WALL. I will do whatever is the easiest, for you all and the best way.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing then to waive your reading and signature?

Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We appreciate that. We will then accept your waiver. It may or may not be made available for you to read and sign. Thank you very much for your appearing here today.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ALEXANDER PETERSON

The testimony of Joseph Alexander Peterson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on August 5, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show present at this time is Mr. Joseph Peterson. Mr. Peterson, the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy has asked you to appear so that we may take your deposition concerning any knowledge you have of Mr. Jack Ruby, his activities during the period around the assassination of President Kennedy, and any of his associates. With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PETERSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name?

Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Alexander Peterson.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been known by any other name?

Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Jablonka.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the name under which you were born, sir?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that has been legally changed?

Mr. PETERSON. Legally changed. My stepfather’s name is Walter Peterson.

Mr. SPECTER. When was your name changed from Jablonka to Peterson?

Mr. PETERSON. November 1965. I remember that well because that was when I was married.

Mr. SPECTER. November of what?

Mr. PETERSON. 19—excuse me, 1946.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your birthday?

Mr. PETERSON. February 14, 1924.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. PETERSON. Brooklyn, NY.

Mr. SPECTER. Where have you lived since the time you were born?

Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see, now. I have lived in Flatbush, Rogers Avenue, 649 Rogers Avenue, and——

Mr. SPECTER. Until when?

Mr. PETERSON. Wait a minute. Before that, 280 19th Street, Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn altogether?

Mr. PETERSON. The family; all our lives. Me, I went in the service, came out, went to Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you live in Brooklyn until you went into the service?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go into the service?

Mr. PETERSON. 1941.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the service?

Mr. PETERSON. 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after leaving the service?

Mr. PETERSON. 1946 I went to—back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Brooklyn?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn after 1946?

Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see. I guess a period about up until 1950.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after 1950?

Mr. PETERSON. New Orleans.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans?

Mr. PETERSON. Three years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after that?

Mr. PETERSON. Jacksonville, Fla. No; wait a minute. I didn’t go to Jacksonville, Fla. I visited Jacksonville, went to New Orleans, then from New Orleans, Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. When?

Mr. PETERSON. 1950, 1951, 1952.

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back to 1950. You were living in Brooklyn at that time?

Mr. PETERSON. Just before that.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then in 1950?

Mr. PETERSON. To New Orleans. Now, approximately—probably it was the end of 1950 because 1951 was so close.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans?

Mr. PETERSON. Two and a half to three years, and then I went to Dallas, Tex. I lived there ever since.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you move to Dallas?

Mr. PETERSON. About the end of 1953 or 1954.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live thereafter in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. PETERSON. Up to now. I went to—let’s see, now. I went to Houston with the show last February. Up until last February I was in Dallas, Tex. I was in the show in Houston, February, March, April, May, June-January, February, March, then came here.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. PETERSON. Producer.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what?

Mr. PETERSON. Coproducer of musical shows with Breck Wall.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed right now?

Mr. PETERSON. Castaways Casino.

Mr. SPECTER. Here in Las Vegas?

Mr. PETERSON. Right. In Las Vegas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in show business?

Mr. PETERSON. Since about 1959.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Mr. Breck Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. Since 1959.

Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. PETERSON. I knew Jack Ruby—let me think, now. Probably it was the last part of 1961 and we did one show there at his club. I believe it was 1961. I’m trying to figure. We went back to the Adolphus in 1962. It was probably in 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “one show,” what do you mean by that?

Mr. PETERSON. Did a musical revue called Sticks and Stones there.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that last?

Mr. PETERSON. Lasted about 2 or 3 months, I guess. We had problems.

Mr. SPECTER. What problems did you have?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, a lot of disagreements. At the time Jack was changing the club from a—he was reopening it. It was called the Sovereign. He was making it into a private club. He wanted to do something different. We were successful across the street with our revue. He talked to us about putting the show up there, going 50-50 on a business basis with the club which we never received anything about.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever enter into an agreement with Jack Ruby wherein you were to have a 50-50 interest in it?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; this was written up with Vic Victorson, his attorney.

Mr. SPECTER. Victorson?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; Victor Victorson.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that?

Mr. PETERSON. Victorson.

Mr. SPECTER. V-i-c-t-o-r-s-o-n?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the agreement was with him. It never held up though. We got nothing.

Mr. SPECTER. You never received any interest in the club?

Mr. PETERSON. Not a thing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever endeavor to enforce that agreement?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the only thing we ever got out of it was through a loan. I think Breck borrowed $300 to go to New York on a business trip. That is all the money we received out of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever try to make Jack Ruby live up to the agreement in any other way?

Mr. PETERSON. There was no use. Jack Ruby, in spite of our disagreements, he was kind of good natured in a way. The best thing to do was to bow out quietly.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you first meet Jack Ruby in approximately September 1961, when you played “Sticks and Stones”?

Mr. PETERSON. About that time; a little before that he came up to visit us at the club.

Mr. SPECTER. When was that?

Mr. PETERSON. September of 1960. Sometime around in there. He came up like a lot of club owners do. I think when we reopened the club he came up and visited us. We were introduced to him as Jack Ruby. That was all.

Mr. SPECTER. After you terminated your business relationship with him when the show “Sticks and Stones” ended, how frequently, if at all, did you see him thereafter?

Mr. PETERSON. He came and visited us quite a lot at the Century Room. He would come in when he had guests, big-shot type of thing, wanted to be recognized. He was very nice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a cordial relationship notwithstanding your prior difficulties?

Mr. PETERSON. Right; right. Like I say, it was best to keep everything on a hello-goodbye basis.

Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see him after 1962?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, normally, like bump into him. It was only across the street. We were living at the Adolphus. Back and forth. It’s hard to tell how many times.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any more business dealings with him?

Mr. PETERSON. No; once we went into bankruptcy, Breck and I, and like when all friendship failed we went to Jack Ruby and he came through. He was real fine. Loaned us money. We paid him back.

Mr. SPECTER. How much money did he loan you?

Mr. PETERSON. It wasn’t exactly a loan. It was a thing, holding on costumes we had for the show. It was $400.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge did Jack Ruby have any association with any of the criminal elements?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, if you want to go by hearsay, yes; but actually I don’t know of any. In fact he was in thicker with the police in Dallas than anybody else I knew of because they were always in his place.

Mr. SPECTER. What hearsay are you referring to?

Mr. PETERSON. I am talking about any hearsay. Because of his character automatically people would take him as a thug.

Mr. SPECTER. What aspect of his character would cause people to do that?

Mr. PETERSON. Outward appearance.

Mr. SPECTER. Anything besides outward appearance?

Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack, in spite of our differences, he was a nice, a good man.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see him associate with any of the criminal element personally?

Mr. PETERSON. No; no.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby a member of any organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the U.S. Government?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was any member of his family a member of any such organization?

Mr. PETERSON. I know nothing about his family except I had met his sister.

Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge were any of his friends or associates members of any subversive organization?

Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see Jack Ruby most recently prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. PETERSON. I guess it was before we went to Galveston. Sometime before then. I couldn’t peg it down. I’m sure we saw him. Like I say, we saw him on the street there. Next thing was the call and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall seeing him specifically on any special date prior to the day of the assassination?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. But you do think, in a general way, you must have seen him because he was in the area?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the day of the assassination?

Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recollect what you did on that day?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, there was going to be the parade. We went down and stood on the marquee of the Adolphus Hotel. We were there with some newspaper people we knew and everybody at the hotel. The President passed by. We came back in the lobby. Next thing we knew we heard on the television he had been shot. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next; if anything?

Mr. PETERSON. As well as I can remember either we called or went upstairs, told the rest of the kids in the cast, those that weren’t out. Just astonishment. Everybody was in the lobby just moving around.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the hotel on that day?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night, if you recall?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, that night we didn’t have a show. I don’t believe we had a show. No; we didn’t have a show that night. They canceled it for three nights. That is when we went to Galveston.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go to Galveston specifically?

Mr. PETERSON. Let me think. When was the 22d? What day was that?

Mr. SPECTER. The 22d was a Friday.

Mr. PETERSON. It was that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to Galveston Friday or Saturday?

Mr. PETERSON. I’m not sure whether it was Friday or Saturday because they canceled the show. I think it might have been the next day. I don’t know. I could not be sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect what you did next day before you went to Galveston; if in fact it was that day you went to Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. The next day before we went to Galveston?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you have told me—let’s go back to Friday. You told me you stayed around the hotel the balance of that day.

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you say you went to Galveston either Friday or Saturday?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, to the best of your recollection, everything that you did before you went to Galveston from the time of the assassination on.

Mr. PETERSON. Well, we stayed at the hotel, found out if they were going to have a show; that is why I think it was Friday now, asking Andy Anderson. I think we picked up and left that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls that day?

Mr. PETERSON. Breck might have called his mother in Galveston. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of the people you refer to as his mother and father?

Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. Tom McKenna.

Mr. SPECTER. They are not his real parents though?

Mr. PETERSON. No; they raised him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a phone call to Emerson 1-4534 on the day of the assassination?

Mr. PETERSON. Emerson 1-4534. Who was it? I don’t remember the number.

Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to give that to you, Mr. Peterson.

Mr. PETERSON. Well, then I can’t remember that.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Riverside 2-6811?

Mr. PETERSON. Riverside 2-6811? I don’t know that number either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any telephone calls which you made on November 22 or 23?

Mr. PETERSON. No; like I say, the only calls I probably made were around the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at Galveston; to the best of your recollection?

Mr. PETERSON. If we left Friday it takes 4 hours. We probably left about, maybe 5, 6. Got there about 11 or 12.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. Made ourselves at home like we always do.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. McKenna; the family.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides Mr. and Mrs. McKenna?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so. I don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls from Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Wall make any telephone calls?

Mr. PETERSON. Somebody called us, newspaper people, I think, out of Washington, some magazine wanted to know some stuff, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What magazine was that?

Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea. Some newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall specifically the name of the man who called you?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him?

Mr. PETERSON. I think I did. Yes; I did talk to him. That is why I remember. I’m trying to think.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your recollection tell me specifically what you said to him and what he said to you?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, just wanted to know—let me see. Was it there or was it at the hotel? They wanted a—Time, I think it was Time, or Life, because the man in Life is located in Dallas. He just wanted to know if we had any pictures with Jack Ruby or anything we had done for a story. I told him we did not have anything. Didn’t bother with it.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were in Galveston did you receive any other telephone calls?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; I’m trying to think. Somebody from some newspaper; I believe it was in Washington. Some magazine or some newspaper. Breck probably will remember better than I do. He has a better memory. They wanted some information on Jack Ruby. I couldn’t give them any.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did Breck Wall receive any telephone call while you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. I think he did.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, the only one was from Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me about that call?

Mr. PETERSON. Jack was very upset about——

Mr. SPECTER. When did it come in?

Mr. PETERSON. It was in the evening some time.

Mr. SPECTER. What day?

Mr. PETERSON. On the day before.

Mr. SPECTER. Before what?

Mr. PETERSON. Assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Before the assassination or before the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. PETERSON. Before the shooting of Oswald. I’m getting them both mixed up. It was the day before Oswald’s assassination, or murder, whatever you want to call it. Jack called and was very upset about the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think I did. I think Breck did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall relate to you what that conversation was about?

Mr. PETERSON. The call would have been Saturday. We went down there Friday. That is when it was.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that telephone conversation between Jack Ruby and Breck Wall all about?

Mr. PETERSON. What I just told you. Breck kind of soothed him a little bit. Nothing you could do. All this baloney. Well, it happened, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby said anything about intending to do anything?

Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge. He didn’t relate that to me. Just he was very upset. Very sick; crying and all of that. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other subject discussed between Ruby and Breck Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack was very close to us. He made himself close to us, you know. We were always in the headlines. Always in the newspapers. We were very good friends with a lot of people in Dallas. He kind of tried to keep up with us, you know, close. Anytime he had any problems or things like that he always came to talk to us about it, or ideas for the club. He came to bug us about that, you know. We were more or less successful in Dallas. Like I say; the best thing to do was just be nice and kind of stay away as much as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which you made or which you received while you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. Not—I can’t remember right now. I just don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which Breck Wall made or received while the two of you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. He probably talked to Tony Zoppi.

Mr. SPECTER. Zoppi?

Mr. PETERSON. Zoppi; he is the amusement critic on the Dallas Morning News. We are very close friends. He probably talked to him about that.

Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall specifically? You presume that might have have happened?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other calls you know about while you were in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas?

Mr. PETERSON. Probably Tuesday. I think we went back Tuesday. We had a show Tuesday. Ordinarily do. The show is closed for the weekend. It was Tuesday when we went back; I’m pretty sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Jack Ruby after the day of the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I got a little, letters from him, note when he was in jail.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that note?

Mr. PETERSON. It was a few days after the FBI questioned us. He wrote me a little thank you note because I spoke up for him. Like I am telling you, he was all right in spite of him being no good, too.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI question you?

Mr. PETERSON. When we were in Dallas. When we were working at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the approximate date when they talked to you?

Mr. PETERSON. Possibly a week, 2 weeks after the Oswald——

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you then?

Mr. PETERSON. Living at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation conducted at your hotel?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; it was at the hotel.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at that time?

Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Mr.—who is the head of the FBI in Dallas? He was the one. Griffin. Griffith. I believe it was Griffith.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody with him?

Mr. PETERSON. There was somebody else sitting at the table. I’m not sure who it was. Tony Zoppi; I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Zoppi was present at the time of the interview?

Mr. PETERSON. I believe; he was either there before, after. Tony always has breakfast there. We were all sitting at the table. Mr. Griffith came over.

Mr. SPECTER. The special agent in charge there is Gordon Shanklin.

Mr. PETERSON. This was Mr. Griffith.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Shanklin present?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Wall present at the time Mr. Griffith talked to you?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know; he might have been. Seems to me three people were at the table. I’m trying to recollect. Breck might have been there. We eat breakfast together there usually. It was either breakfast or lunch. I’m never sure which it is because we always get up around 11 or 12.

Mr. SPECTER. When Mr. Griffith or Griffin interviewed you, did you tell him about the telephone call that Jack Ruby made to Breck Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we told him all that. In fact this is a little clearer than that. Everything is a little fresher in my mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you told him of that telephone call?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know if I did; I’m sure Breck did.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when Breck Wall talked to the FBI?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. SPECTER. How can you say you are sure Breck Wall told him of the telephone call?

Mr. PETERSON. Because Breck is very much in the habit of doing the right thing.

Mr. SPECTER. So that would be your presumption he did?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You actually weren’t there when Breck Wall talked to the FBI man?

Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not you personally told the agent from the FBI about the telephone call from Ruby in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the FBI more than once or once?

Mr. PETERSON. Just the once, although I felt like it was more than once talking to them going up and down in the elevators, there were a hundred of them there. Couldn’t miss them.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Ruby knew how to call you in Galveston?

Mr. PETERSON. What he probably did was call the hotel and ask where we were because we always left a telephone call where we were at.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you do that?

Mr. PETERSON. It was our policy to do that. If they wanted to start the show they had to know where we were at.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you find out Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. PETERSON. When we were watching TV.

Mr. SPECTER. Where?

Mr. PETERSON. Galveston; in McKenna’s home.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you recognize Ruby then?

Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You could recognize Ruby?

Mr. PETERSON. Couldn’t miss it.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction on that?

Mr. PETERSON. Shock. Unbelievable, really.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Breck Wall called Phil Burleson from Galveston that day?

Mr. PETERSON. I think he did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call?

Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he discuss it with you before he made the call?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether he called Nancy Austin?

Mr. PETERSON. He probably called everybody up when that happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know specifically whether the call was to Nancy Austin?

Mr. PETERSON. I think probably. Because of what he saw on the TV and about the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eddie Parker?

Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes; he used to work for us backstage at the Adolphus.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever call him up?

Mr. PETERSON. Probably. In reference to the show because he had connection with Tressler in the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Breck Wall call him up?

Mr. PETERSON. He probably did.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his purpose?

Mr. PETERSON. In regards to the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought?

Mr. PETERSON. A lot of these people I might know when I see them. Breck knows. He is good on names.

Mr. SPECTER. The name Clarence Vought doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know anything about them.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews?

Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t remember. I might.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba?

Mr. PETERSON. Nothing. Only thing I know about that is when I read it later in the papers.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know a man by the name of Henry Atcheson?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or Henry Acteson?

Mr. PETERSON. No. I am saying no to a lot of these. I may know them.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about a telephone call to Mr. Atcheson or Mr. Acteson in Canada back in March of 1964?

Mr. PETERSON. That I made?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make such a call?

Mr. PETERSON. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall ever make such a call to your knowledge?

Mr. PETERSON. He might have. I don’t know. Canada? Only one thing we had to do, that was a man who wanted to buy the show for one night and fly us up there.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his name?

Mr. PETERSON. Wohl, W-o-h-l. He got in touch with us about a show.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of Canada was he from?

Mr. PETERSON. I don’t recollect right now.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his first name?

Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Jack.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?

Mr. PETERSON. That is it. Calgary. Some organization. He was trying to get us booked for this, whatever it was, that they celebrate.

Mr. SPECTER. Was his name Wall, W-a-l-l?

Mr. PETERSON. No; Breck Wall is my partner. This other was Wohl, W-o-h-l.

Mr. SPECTER. Wall?

Mr. PETERSON. Maybe I’m spelling it wrong.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he with you in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. PETERSON. He comes to our hotel quite a lot.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he with you in March of 1964?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, he stayed there at the hotel. He saw a show two or three times. He talked to us about the chance of booking a show in Canada. He would get in touch with this organization he was with and let us know, which he did by letter.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work that deal out?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Why not?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, it just never materialized.

Mr. SPECTER. How did he pronounce his name again?

Mr. PETERSON. Wohl, I believe it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Phonetically it sounds the same as W-a-l-l?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. He was from Calgary, Alberta, Canada?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes. I’m pretty sure that is it. In fact I think we still got that letter. I know it is W-o-h-l because I remarked on it, about Breck Wall.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you still do have that letter?

Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you look for that and send it to me?

Mr. PETERSON. Sure. Sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me write my name and address down for you so you can do that.

Mr. PETERSON. Fine. If I don’t have the letter we could get in touch with the hotel. He always stays there. I’m sure they have records.

Mr. SPECTER. His first name was Jack?

Mr. PETERSON. I’m sure it was Jack; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Here is my name and address in Washington.

Mr. PETERSON. He was connected with a big oil company.

Mr. SPECTER. If you can find that letter and send it to me, I would be much obliged to you.

Mr. PETERSON. Sure.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do immediately after the assassination, if you recall?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, we checked the hotel about the show.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go down to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. PETERSON. I think we did; ran down to take a look.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. PETERSON. Curiosity.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only purpose?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; along with a couple of thousand other people.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what your reaction was when Breck Wall received some telephone calls in Galveston from the Washington Post and from the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. PETERSON. That is it. Washington Post. Well, I got a little angry, told him not to say anything over the phone until we got back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you tell him not to say anything over the phone until you got back home?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, you don’t know who you are talking to over the phone.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other reason in mind besides that?

Mr. PETERSON. No; not at all. The only one I could recognize was the Dallas Morning News people we knew. That was fine, but anybody else, I don’t know who we were talking to. A lot of nuts would be calling you up.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s troubles with the American Guild of Variety Artists?

Mr. PETERSON. Jack had all kinds of problems and troubles with unions and everybody else. Jack was like every other struggling nightclub owner who was trying to get along the cheapest way he could. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Does the telephone number Riverside 8-1434 in Dallas mean anything to you?

Mr. PETERSON. Let me see. No, I don’t know. Probably does, but I don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President’s Commission in any way?

Mr. PETERSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time when we went on the record here, Mr. Peterson, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning your knowledge of Jack Ruby?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have I covered those questions and a number of others during the course of the deposition on the record?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me on the record the same as what you told me off the record earlier?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes; what I could remember—wait a minute, now. You said “before”——

Mr. SPECTER. We have covered, have we not——

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Everything on the record which we covered before?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Under the rules of the President’s Commission, Mr. Peterson, you have a right to read and to sign this deposition if you want to. Do you want to do that or would you be willing to waive that reading and signing?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, what does—do you want me to sign it? I will sign it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any special interest in reading it and signing it?

Mr. PETERSON. Well, I’d like to read it, then I will sign it. I have no objection to signing it but I’d like to read what I’m signing.

Mr. SPECTER. That is fair enough. You did receive a letter from the Commission?

Mr. PETERSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Informing you you had a right to counsel if you wanted one here today?

Mr. PETERSON. Right. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. And the other rules and regulations concerning the proceedings in depositions before the President’s Commission, did you not?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. And appearing here today was satisfactory with you as you have appeared and testified without the representation of counsel?

Mr. PETERSON. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. That concludes the deposition, then, Mr. Peterson. We shall make available a copy of the transcript for you to read and sign.

TESTIMONY OF HARRY N. OLSEN

The testimony of Harry N. Olsen was taken at 2:50 p.m., on August 6, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is being held at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles, Calif., in room 644, which is the room customarily used for the grand jury proceedings.

May the record further show that it is now 2:50 p.m. Pacific daylight time on Thursday, August 6, 1964. Present is Mr. Harry Olsen, who has appeared in response to a letter notification to appear for this deposition.

Mr. Olsen, did you receive a letter from the President’s Commission with an insertion of the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations for taking of depositions?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you receive that letter?

Mr. OLSEN. Five or six days ago.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice that there was a provision in the rules and regulations that you could have counsel with you if you so desired at the present time?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you wish to have counsel with you?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t think it’s necessary.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. The Commission has asked you to appear, Mr. Olsen, in order to testify about any knowledge which you have concerning Mr. Jack Ruby and the shooting of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of purpose, I would like you to stand up and raise your right hand, if you would.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. OLSEN. Harry N. Olsen.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address at the present time, Mr. Olsen?

Mr. OLSEN. 315 Obispo in Long Beach.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your date of birth?

Mr. OLSEN. February the 16, 1934.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. OLSEN. Wichita Falls, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Outline briefly your educational background.

Mr. OLSEN. Four years of high school, two and a half years of college.

Mr. SPECTER. What college did you attend?

Mr. OLSEN. Midwestern University.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you leave Midwestern University?

Mr. OLSEN. 1954.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities after leaving Midwestern University, by way of subsequent employment?

Mr. OLSEN. The Army, 1954 to 1956, and working for my Dad.

Mr. SPECTER. For how long did you work for your Dad?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, since I was 16.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, from 1956 on how long did you work for him?

Mr. OLSEN. About a year.

Mr. SPECTER. What type of work was that?

Mr. OLSEN. Leather goods.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in Wichita Falls, Tex.?

Mr. OLSEN. That was in Henrietta, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after terminating your employment with your father in about 1957 then?

Mr. OLSEN. I went to Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation in Dallas?

Mr. OLSEN. A claims investigator for an insurance company.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you so employed?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 7 or 8 months.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you next do for a living?

Mr. OLSEN. I worked for a finance company.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you employed by the finance company?

Mr. OLSEN. About 8 months.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your next occupation?

Mr. OLSEN. Dallas Police Department.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your rank in the police department?

Mr. OLSEN. Patrolman.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you employed by the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. Five and a half years.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. In the latter part of December, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And how were you employed after December of 1963?

Mr. OLSEN. I left Dallas and came to California and am working for a collection agency.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you held that same job from the time you first arrived here in Los Angeles until the present time?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single, Mr. Olsen?

Mr. OLSEN. Married.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the name of your wife?

Mr. OLSEN. Kay.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was her name prior to her marriage to you?

Mr. OLSEN. Kay Coleman.

Mr. SPECTER. What was her occupation prior to being married to you, that is where was she employed?

Mr. OLSEN. She was employed at the Carousel Club.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you and Mrs. Kay Olsen married?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was December. It could have been January.

Mr. SPECTER. December of what year?

Mr. OLSEN. 1963, or January of 1964.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first become acquainted with Mr. Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, about 3 years ago.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your making his acquaintance?

Mr. OLSEN. I was with the police department at the time and I was working that area where his club was, and it was a routine check of his place.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you and Jack Ruby get along during the time you knew him?

Mr. OLSEN. We spoke. And sometimes he would get mad and I would talk to him and calm him down a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. How often did you visit Jack Ruby’s club, the Carousel Club?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, once a week, I guess. Sometimes more and sometimes less.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any disputes with Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Sometimes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of the disputes?

Mr. OLSEN. He would get mad with some of his help, some of his employees mostly, or customers. And he was erratic and hotheaded.

Mr. SPECTER. What specific indications did you observe that he was erratic or hotheaded?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, sometimes he would get so mad that he would shake.

Mr. SPECTER. What would cause him to get that mad?

Mr. OLSEN. Anything. I mean, he would just fly off the handle about anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me a specific illustration of what caused him on any occasion to become that angry?

Mr. OLSEN. Mostly with his help.

Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you said that you had disagreements with him over the way he treated his help. What was it about the way he treated his help which caused you to have any disagreement with Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, they would want to quit and he would get upset about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relation only to Mrs. Kay Olsen who was an employee of his, or did that apply to other employees as well?

Mr. OLSEN. Others.

Mr. SPECTER. Why was it that you were concerned about other employees?

Mr. OLSEN. He would talk to me about it and ask me what I thought, and I would try to tell him to just calm down.

Mr. SPECTER. But as a result of those conversations with Ruby, you had disagreements with him?

Mr. OLSEN. Not very often. Not very often.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me any other information as to what caused any disagreement between you and Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. No, I can’t think of anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you living in the fall of 1963, say in September of 1963?

Mr. OLSEN. On Theatre Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was Mrs. Kay Olsen, who was then not your wife, living at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. On Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was her specific address, if you recall?

Mr. OLSEN. 325 North Ewing, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your relationship with Kay in the fall of 1963?

Mr. OLSEN. We were going together.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she unmarried at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she been married previously?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When was her divorce final, if you know?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an approximate date as to when it was final?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell me if it was a few months or a few years before 1963?

Mr. OLSEN. I just don’t know. She might know.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you married or single in the fall of 1963?

Mr. OLSEN. I was single.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been married prior to that time?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When was your divorce final?

Mr. OLSEN. October of 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you separated from your wife prior to October of 1963?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you first separated from your former wife?

Mr. OLSEN. About 6 months before that.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you going with or steadily dating Kay, then, from the early fall of 1963 on up until the time that you married her in December of 1963, or January of 1964?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in the fall of 1963, say September of 1963, if you know?

Mr. OLSEN. He lived on Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall——

Mr. OLSEN. Right at Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was that from Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. Approximately 4 or 5 blocks.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was Mr. Ruby’s residence from your residence?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, boy. Oh, it was, I would guess, 2 or 3 miles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever live only 1 block away from Mr. Ruby’s residence?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit you at your apartment?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit Kay at her apartment?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did he visit Kay at her apartment?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an approximation?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, seven or eight times.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you always present on those occasions?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of Jack Ruby’s visiting Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. Sometimes he would be mad about something, and mad at an employee, or sometimes he would stop by for breakfast after he closed his club.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever any romantic connection between Jack Ruby and Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. It was just a cordial relationship which would lead him to stop over and pay her a visit and have breakfast or something to that effect?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Ruby friendly with many police officers employed by the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances surrounding his friendship for police officers?

Mr. OLSEN. He seemed to like police officers.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for his affinity for police officers, or for liking them especially?

Mr. OLSEN. No, he just seemed to be friendly with all of them, wanted to know them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know him very well?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. OLSEN. I heard that he did.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that?

Mr. OLSEN. It was a rumor that he did.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you hear that rumor that he did know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. OLSEN. While talking with other officers. I couldn’t specifically say when.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that after Tippit was killed?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear anybody say that Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit before Officer Tippit was killed?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you recall specifically who it was who said that Ruby knew Officer Tippit?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit together?

Mr. OLSEN. No, not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, think about that for just a minute and then see if you recollect anything more specifically on whether or not you ever saw Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit together.

Mr. OLSEN. No, I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever do any favors for you, Mr. Olsen?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, like what?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, anything in a friendly way, such as do something you asked him to do or something of that sort? Did you ever ask him to do anything for you?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, I asked him to let Kay off sometimes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he honor that request?

Mr. OLSEN. Most of the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever ask him to do anything besides letting Kay off on occasion?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy was assassinated?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, as specifically as you can recollect, exactly what your activities were on that day.

Mr. OLSEN. I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was working at an extra job guarding an estate.

Mr. SPECTER. Whose estate was that?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember the name.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to get that extra job?

Mr. OLSEN. A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and he was doing work, but he was in the motor——

Mr. SPECTER. Cade?

Mr. OLSEN. Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able to work it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer?

Mr. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that estate located?

Mr. OLSEN. On 8th Street in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on which it was located?

Mr. OLSEN. It’s in the Oak Cliff area, it’s approximately two blocks off of Stemmons.

Mr. SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department on the day President Kennedy was in town?

Mr. OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me to work that day and they said no.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg?

Mr. OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before.

Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated?

Mr. OLSEN. Baylor Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir; it’s on Gaston.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you start to guard the estate on that particular Friday?

Mr. OLSEN. About 7 a.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that guard duty last?

Mr. OLSEN. Until about 8.

Mr. SPECTER. Eight p.m.?

Mr. OLSEN. P.m., yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any visitors while you were guarding the estate on that day?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was the visitor or visitors?

Mr. OLSEN. Kay.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did she visit you?

Mr. OLSEN. Right after the President was shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you learn of the assassination of the President?

Mr. OLSEN. A woman called me on the phone who was a friend of the person who had lived there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that woman was?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. And she wanted to know if I had heard the news, and I said no and she said, “The President has been shot.”

Mr. SPECTER. What time did that telephone call occur?

Mr. OLSEN. Right after he was shot. I don’t know exactly what time it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on the telephone or in person between the telephone call and the time that Kay visited you?

Mr. OLSEN. Passers-by. I went outside.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see outside?

Mr. OLSEN. No one who I knew by name. They just said, “Have you heard the news?” And I said, “Yes, I had.”

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other telephone calls while you were guarding that house?

Mr. OLSEN. I called the police department and asked them if they needed me to work.

Mr. SPECTER. To whom did you talk at the police department?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall.

Mr. SPECTER. What response did you get?

Mr. OLSEN. They said no.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did Kay visit you on that Friday?

Mr. OLSEN. In the afternoon sometime.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did she stay?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I would say an hour or two.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have lunch on that Friday?

Mr. OLSEN. There at the place that I was watching.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper that day?

Mr. OLSEN. At her house.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by “her” I take it you mean Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what time did you go to Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. When I got—when the motorcycle officer came and relieved me.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 8; about 8.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an automobile?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. Walked.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it?

Mr. OLSEN. About 4 blocks.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any material way?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee?

Mr. OLSEN. A little bit, not much.

Mr. SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 blocks to Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I used. Now, what was the question?

Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay’s house, what did you do then?

Mr. OLSEN. We talked about the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. I would say several hours.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you leave Kay’s house, to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. OLSEN. What time I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else at Kay’s house with you besides Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In what manner did you travel away from Kay’s house, by foot, by car?

Mr. OLSEN. By car.

Mr. SPECTER. Whose car was that?

Mr. OLSEN. Mine.

Mr. SPECTER. How was it that you didn’t have your car at the house which you were guarding?

Mr. OLSEN. I didn’t want to drive it, I don’t remember why. I think I left it for her to use.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Kay go with you when you drove away from her house?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?

Mr. OLSEN. Downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of your trip to town?

Mr. OLSEN. To see where the President was shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go then to Dealey Plaza?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, we drove by there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go anyplace else?

Mr. OLSEN. We went to a garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that garage located?

Mr. OLSEN. Jackson and Field.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of going to a garage at Jackson and Field?

Mr. OLSEN. We knew the man who worked there.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his name?

Mr. OLSEN. Johnny is all I know him by.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work did he do at that garage?

Mr. OLSEN. He was an attendant.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you want to go see him?

Mr. OLSEN. To talk.

Mr. SPECTER. For any special purpose?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect about what time you arrived at that garage?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 12, approximately.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Johnny when you were there?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else while you were at that garage?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else did you see?

Mr. OLSEN. Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else besides Johnny and Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, before seeing Ruby at the garage on that Friday night, when had you seen him most recently before that time?

Mr. OLSEN. It could have been a few days or a week.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall where it was that you saw him prior to this Friday night?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, it was probably outside of his club.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the specific instance, or are you just saying what you think probably occurred?

Mr. OLSEN. I am just saying what probably occurred, because I don’t remember when I saw him before that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection what your conversation was with Mr. Ruby when you saw him prior to this Friday night?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Mr. Ruby on this Friday night?

Mr. OLSEN. Two or three hours.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time of the conversation?

Mr. OLSEN. Kay.

Mr. SPECTER. And anybody else?

Mr. OLSEN. Johnny.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anybody besides Johnny and Kay and Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recall exactly what it was that Ruby said and what it was that you and Kay and Johnny said in reply to him?

Mr. OLSEN. We were all upset about the President’s assassination, and we were just talking about how we hated it, that it was a tragedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby say something to that effect?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes; very strongly.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what his exact words were, by any chance?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe he said something to the effect that “It’s too bad that a peon,” or a person like Oswald, “could do something like that,” referring to shooting the President and the officer, Officer Tippit.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. He cursed him.

Mr. SPECTER. What specific language did he use?

Mr. OLSEN. S.o.b.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other specific curse that you recollect Ruby used in describing Oswald?

Mr. OLSEN. He could have said something else, but I remember that. I’m sure that he did say something else, but I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he knew Oswald?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. OLSEN. It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit.

Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say, “It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit”?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe he said that Tippit had been to his club.

Mr. SPECTER. Recollect as specifically as you can exactly what he said about that, if you can, Mr. Olsen.

Mr. OLSEN. Something about Oswald shooting the President and Officer Tippit and leaving the wife and children, and he kept referring to Jacqueline.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, how about what you were referring to concerning Ruby’s knowing Officer Tippit? What exactly did Ruby say at that time, to the best of your ability to recollect, about any relationship or acquaintanceship between Jack Ruby and J. D. Tippit?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, I just don’t remember if there was anything specifically said about that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Ruby during that conversation?

Mr. OLSEN. I said it was a tragedy that this happened.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Johnny say to Ruby at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. And he said, yes; it sure was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Johnny say anything else?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, we all talked; I don’t remember what exactly was said.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember anything specifically that Kay said at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. No. It was a shame that it had happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not Kay said something to the effect that “In England they would have Oswald by his toes and drag him through the street”?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Had Kay talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe that she did.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in person or by telephone?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was by phone.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was she when she talked to him by phone, if you know?

Mr. OLSEN. At her house.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was Ruby, if you know?

Mr. OLSEN. I think he was at his house.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did that telephone conversation occur?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was in the afternoon sometime.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if you know?

Mr. OLSEN. To find out if she had heard about the President’s assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else said by either Kay or Ruby at that time when they had telephone conversation?

Mr. OLSEN. I wasn’t—I don’t believe I was there when she talked to him.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you know about the call then?

Mr. OLSEN. She said that she had talked to him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not they discussed whether or not the Carousel Club would be open that night?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe they did.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what Ruby said about that subject matter?

Mr. OLSEN. He said that it would not be open.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Kay telephoned Ruby or Ruby telephoned Kay on the occasion?

Mr. OLSEN. No; I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you at that garage at Jackson and Field before you saw Jack Ruby on that Friday night or early Saturday morning?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 30 minutes to an hour, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that garage be located on Jackson and Akard, A-k-a-r-d?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is Jackson and Akard from Jackson and Field?

Mr. OLSEN. One block.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss with Ruby the fact that he closed his club that night?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if you recall?

Mr. OLSEN. I said that it should be closed.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you congratulate him for having closed it?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you shake his hand?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you pretty emotionally upset about the assassination of President Kennedy at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Kay pretty emotionally upset about the assassination at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Johnny?

Mr. OLSEN. He was, too; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What indication was there that you observed that Ruby was emotionally upset about the assassination?

Mr. OLSEN. He was very nervous.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way was that evident?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, in his speech and his actions.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other indication that you were able to observe that Ruby was upset about the assassination?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, the way he talked, and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby mention anything about the Weissman advertisement that appeared in the Dallas papers earlier that day?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?

Mr. OLSEN. He said they shouldn’t be open.

Mr. SPECTER. What Weissman advertisement had appeared earlier that day?

Mr. OLSEN. Just the usual ad in the paper about them being open.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any advertisement in the paper that day containing derogatory statements about President Kennedy?

Mr. OLSEN. There was something in the paper, I believe, about somebody carrying banners in one part of town.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of banners were those?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe they were about President Kennedy, and what they said, I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember Ruby’s comment about that, or whether he made one?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe he did say something about that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what it was?

Mr. OLSEN. He said that it wasn’t right, and “I just wonder how they feel about it now.”

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radicals in Dallas at that particular time?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the effect of all that on the Jews?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe he did.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?

Mr. OLSEN. No; he didn’t; I don’t believe he said anything about that; no.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time was it——

Mr. OLSEN. Let me think about that for a minute, will you?

Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead; take your time.

Mr. OLSEN. I heard something about him saying after he shot Oswald that he wondered if the other Jews would blame him for what he had done.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear that from Ruby personally?

Mr. OLSEN. No; it was hearsay.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?

Mr. OLSEN. I either read it or heard it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall where you read it?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe——

Mr. SPECTER. Or from whom you heard it?

Mr. OLSEN. It was either in the paper or from someone who had been to visit him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who might it have been who was to visit him?

Mr. OLSEN. Wally Weston.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Wally Weston?

Mr. OLSEN. He was the master of ceremonies there in his club.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston?

Mr. OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that car accident occur?

Mr. OLSEN. December 7.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital?

Mr. OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks.

Mr. SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision?

Mr. OLSEN. I rebroke my leg.

Mr. SPECTER. In the same place?

Mr. OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest bone.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating your sternum?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs.

Mr. SPECTER. What hospital were you in?

Mr. OLSEN. Methodist.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did Wally Weston have to say on that occasion, if anything, about Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. He couldn’t understand why he did it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Weston say anything further about Jack Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me everything you can remember about that conversation among you and Ruby and Kay and Johnny that night in the garage?

Mr. OLSEN. Between who?

Mr. SPECTER. Ruby, Kay, Johnny, and you at the garage the Friday night or early Saturday morning of the assassination.

Mr. OLSEN. I can’t think of anything else. It was a conversation about what had happened to the President and Officer Tippit, and everyone was very upset about it.

Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your ability or recollection, did that conversation end?

Mr. OLSEN. Two or three in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after that?

Mr. OLSEN. I took Kay home.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any——

Mr. OLSEN. Jack left.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody or talk to anybody else later that night?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after taking Kay home?

Mr. OLSEN. We talked a while.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do next?

Mr. OLSEN. I think I went home.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, probably 11 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast on Saturday?

Mr. OLSEN. At her house.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by “her” I take it you mean Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. Oh, 12 or 1 o’clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else on Saturday besides Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else did you see?

Mr. OLSEN. I saw Ruby Saturday night.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was it that you saw Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. In front of his club.

Mr. SPECTER. The Carousel Club?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time was that?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11 at night.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you speak to him?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the circumstances under which you saw him?

Mr. OLSEN. We were driving by and he was standing outside and we waved.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he see you and wave at you?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do from the time you got to Kay’s house until the time that you saw Ruby standing in front of his club on that Saturday night?

Mr. OLSEN. Watched some television and listened to the radio a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to anybody else either in person or by telephone from the time you got to Kay’s house until the time you saw Ruby that Saturday night?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t guess we did.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after you saw Ruby in front of his club that Saturday night?

Mr. OLSEN. What did we do then?

Mr. SPECTER. What did you and Kay do then?

Mr. OLSEN. We drove by where the President was shot, we drove by there several times, and drove around town a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you finish driving around town?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I guess 1 or 2.

Mr. SPECTER. In the morning?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew while you were driving around town?

Mr. OLSEN. We did, but I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop and talk to them?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go when you finished driving around town?

Mr. OLSEN. I took her home.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at her home?

Mr. OLSEN. I would say 2 or 3 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, we talked about what had happened more.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. OLSEN. Went to bed.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you sleep that night?

Mr. OLSEN. I could have slept on her couch. Either that or I went back to my apartment.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken Sunday morning?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast?

Mr. OLSEN. At her house.

Mr. SPECTER. And by “her” you mean Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after breakfast? First, did you go to Kay’s house right after you awakened?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then how long did you stay at Kay’s house?

Mr. OLSEN. I think we were there when Ruby shot Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. OLSEN. It was either the radio or the television.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you watching TV at the time that it happened?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe so. If not, we turned it on right after we had heard it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present in Kay’s house except you and Kay?

Mr. OLSEN. Her children.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of her children?

Mr. OLSEN. Susan and Sheri.

Mr. SPECTER. How old is Susan?

Mr. OLSEN. Nine.

Mr. SPECTER. How old is Sheri?

Mr. OLSEN. Seven.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present besides you and Kay and Susan and Sheri?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; they could have been outside playing.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay’s house that day?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, several hours, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else before you left Kay’s house that day, on that Sunday?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I recall. I could have seen somebody who lives there.

Mr. SPECTER. Such as who?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, the landlord.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is he?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember his name.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody by telephone that day?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall if I called the police department or not, whether they wanted me to come down and work.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you on duty that day?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How was it that you were off for 3 days in a row?

Mr. OLSEN. I had a holiday.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “a holiday”?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, like Christmas or Thanksgiving, or something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean you had a compensatory day coming for having worked a holiday?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any announcement that day that Oswald was about to be moved?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to hear that?

Mr. OLSEN. On television, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. And specifically, what was that announcement?

Mr. OLSEN. That he was being moved from the city jail to the county jail.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody about that?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell Ruby about that?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby that Sunday?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Ruby at any time after that conversation you had with him in the garage on late Friday night or early Saturday morning?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave Kay’s house on Sunday, November 24, to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. OLSEN. I would say 9 or 10 o’clock.

Mr. SPECTER. In the evening?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then?

Mr. OLSEN. We drove by city hall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop?

Mr. OLSEN. Sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop at city hall?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go after dropping by city hall?

Mr. OLSEN. We drove by where the President was assassinated.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Kay with you at that time?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe she was.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go next?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe we went to her house.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned Oswald was shot by Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. Sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned that Oswald was shot by Ruby?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe I called the police department and asked them if they wanted me to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did you contact anybody?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you called the police department what did they tell you?

Mr. OLSEN. They didn’t need me to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who you talked to on that occasion?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Has Kay worked for Ruby at any time after the assassination?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did she work for Ruby last preceding the assassination?

Mr. OLSEN. Thursday, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. The latter part of December.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for leaving the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. I wanted to come to California.

Mr. SPECTER. Nobody at the Dallas Police Department asked you to leave?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you to leave the Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. Chief Curry.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for that?

Mr. OLSEN. I was out of sick time; in other words, you are allotted so much sick time a year, and he didn’t want to extend me any more.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only reason why he asked you to terminate your employment with the police department?

Mr. OLSEN. That was one of the reasons.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason?

(Long pause.)

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember exactly what was said.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why you went to California?

Mr. OLSEN. We heard the climate was nice out here.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Bertha Cheek? Does that name ring a bell with you?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is she?

Mr. OLSEN. I have heard the name. Can you help me a little bit with it?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, do you recollect anything about her at this moment?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I have heard the name, though.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a partner?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, who is Bertha Cheek?

Mr. SPECTER. You just don’t recollect?

Mr. OLSEN. Did I tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a partner?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at Bertha Cheek’s apartment building?

Mr. OLSEN. Well, where is that?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, do you know of any Bertha Cheek who has an apartment building in Dallas?

Mr. OLSEN. Does she have the one on Gaston?

Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at an apartment building on Gaston?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I know of, no.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time President Kennedy was assassinated through the rest of that Friday and Saturday and Sunday did you see or talk to Little Lynn?

Mr. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin, during that same time?

Mr. OLSEN. Who?

Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin. I notice a quizzical look on your face. Do you know who Bruce Carlin is?

Mr. OLSEN. No; can you help me?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I am not able to do that. Did you see or talk to Tammi True?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tammi True?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Ralph Paul from November 22d through to November 24th?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tom Howard?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Tom Howard from the time of the assassination until the following Sunday?

Mr. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Breck Wall during that same period of time?

Mr. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to George Senator from November 22d through the 24th?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You know who George Senator is?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Mickey Ryan?

(Witness shaking head.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr.——

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Olsen is shaking his head “No,” and now he has said “No.” Do you know Blackie Harrison?

Mr. OLSEN. I believe, if it’s the one I’m thinking of.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you thinking of one who is an officer on the Police Department?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison from the time of the assassination to the Sunday after that?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Lieutenant Butler?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Lieutenant Butler from the assassination until the 24th of November?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Detective L. D. Miller from the assassination until November 24th?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tom O’Grady?

Mr. OLSEN. I might know him by sight, but I don’t know him from the name.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby said he was going to shoot Oswald?

Mr. OLSEN. No, not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear of Oswald before the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald before the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at all whether Ruby knew Oswald prior to the assassination?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember. I might know him if I would see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby knew anyone by the name of Eugene Smith?

Mr. OLSEN. No, I don’t.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby was a member of any subversive organization; that is, an organization which advocates the forceful overthrow of the U.S. Government?

Mr. OLSEN. To my knowledge, he was never a member of anything like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his friends or family were members of such an organization?

Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby associated with any of the criminal element.

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever associate with any of the criminal element?

Mr. OLSEN. I think he did in Chicago.

Mr. SPECTER. What, is the basis for your saying that?

Mr. OLSEN. I had heard that he had been with a gang in Chicago.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?

Mr. OLSEN. Oh, it could have been Ruby himself.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall for sure whether or not it was Ruby who told you that?

Mr. OLSEN. I recall that he did—he had said something about being with a—or, how rough Chicago used to be.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did he say anything beyond how rough it was, to the effect that he was with a criminal gang or anything of that sort?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s trip to Cuba?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you know about that?

Mr. OLSEN. He said he was going to Cuba to get acts.

Mr. SPECTER. To get what?

Mr. OLSEN. Acts.

Mr. SPECTER. A-c-t-s?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. For his nightclub?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he go to Cuba, if you remember?

Mr. OLSEN. I remember when he went, but I don’t remember the date.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other purpose that you know about in Ruby’s going to Cuba?

Mr. OLSEN. No. He seemed to be quiet about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s attitude toward the John Birch Society?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about his attitude toward the Minutemen?

Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about the sign on impeaching Chief Justice Earl Warren?

Mr. OLSEN. Would you repeat that?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about a sign or advertisement which said “Impeach Chief Justice Earl Warren of the U.S. Supreme Court”?

Mr. OLSEN. He could have said something about it, but I don’t remember. I think that he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record for just a minute.

(There was a discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President’s Commission in any way, Mr. Olsen?

Mr. OLSEN. I wish I did. If I did, I would tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. But you don’t?

Mr. OLSEN. Not that I can think of.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, under the procedure of the Commission, Mr. Olsen, we can make this deposition transcript available to you to read and to sign, if you want to, or you can forego your right to do that on what is called a waiver.

Would you like to read and sign the deposition; that is, this record?

Mr. OLSEN. Should I?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, it’s up to you. If you want to, you can, it’s up to you. There is some doubt in your mind, so I think we will make it available to you to read and to sign.

Mr. OLSEN. OK.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Olsen, and that concludes the deposition.

(There was a discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back on the record just a minute.

Mr. Olsen, did we have a brief conversation before I administered the oath to you and the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did I cover in a general way the questions which I have since asked you on the record?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have given on the record?

Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF KAY HELEN OLSEN

The testimony of Kay Helen Olsen was taken at 4:30 p.m., on August 6, 1964, at U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Harry Olsen is present in response to a letter request for her to appear and have her deposition taken.

Mrs. Olsen, did you receive such a letter from the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you get that letter?

Mrs. OLSEN. Monday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Today is Thursday, so that would have been 3 days ago?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, I think it was Monday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Is it satisfactory with you to proceed to have your deposition taken at the present time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the letter contain the Executive order creating the Commission and the rules and regulations for the taking of depositions?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you note that you could have an attorney present if you wanted one at this time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to proceed without an attorney being present on your behalf?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. The Commission has asked you to appear to give a deposition with respect to your knowledge of Jack Ruby and the events of November 22 through November 24.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. OLSEN. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. OLSEN. Kay Helen Olsen.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the date of your birth, Mrs. Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. The 13th of April 1936.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mrs. OLSEN. London, England.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived in the United States?

Mrs. OLSEN. Eight years.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married to Mr. Harry Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married to Mr. Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. Seven months.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you married prior to your marriage to Mr. Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the name of the gentlemen to whom you were previously married?

Mrs. OLSEN. Kennerd Coleman.

Mr. SPECTER. And when were you divorced from Mr. Coleman?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t remember the month. It was 1959.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you married on any occasion prior to your marriage to Mr. Coleman?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I went to an all girls school, I won a scholarship to an all girls school, and, well——

Mr. SPECTER. How old were you when you finished your formal education?

Mrs. OLSEN. I guess I was about 15½. We start earlier over there, you know. We go to school earlier.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your places of residence from the time you came to the United States?

Mrs. OLSEN. Victoria, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in Victoria, Tex.?

Mrs. OLSEN. June 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from Victoria, Tex.?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, that’s when we first separated. I came out here to California, Riverside, Calif., and he went to Illinois.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Coleman went to Illinois and you came to Riverside, Calif., in 1956?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; 1958.

Mr. SPECTER. 1958?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And where have you lived since 1958?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I had to go back to Illinois. He was sick and I had to go back, and then we moved to Salina, Kans.

Mr. SPECTER. You reunited?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Salina, Kans.?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, that was the latter part of 1958.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you move from Salina, Kans.?

Mrs. OLSEN. Wichita.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Wichita?

Mrs. OLSEN. About 6 months.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you next live after your residency in Wichita, Kans.?

Mrs. OLSEN. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mrs. OLSEN. June 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you reside in Dallas?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. We came out here in January of 1964. Two and a half years.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you resided here in Los Angeles since January of this year?

Mrs. OLSEN. February 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it was around July 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your meeting him?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I just went up to his club to see some girlfriends.

Mr. SPECTER. What club is that?

Mrs. OLSEN. Carousel Club.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did you happen to meet him?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he asked me to go to work for him.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you subsequently employed by Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it took me about a month to think it over, because everybody thought he wouldn’t last, you know, they thought his business wouldn’t last, competitionwise, you know, and I went to work for him, I guess it was the latter part of July.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what year?

Mrs. OLSEN. 1961.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you work for him altogether?

Mrs. OLSEN. Two years and four months; on and off.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get along with Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. Very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any disagreements with him?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; about, you know, trying to get a day off.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause, did you say, of the disagreement?

Mrs. OLSEN. Trying to get a day off. That was about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; not really.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever romantic interest between you and Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you meet Mr. Olsen, your husband?

Mrs. OLSEN. When I was working up there.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Carousel Club?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How did Mr. Ruby and Mr. Olsen get along?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, he liked Harry.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever argue or fight?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, over me once in a while, trying to get some time off.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever any other disagreement between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he didn’t think that Harry should come up there so much, me working there.

Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did Harry come to the club?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, maybe on Saturday night for an hour or something, you know about once a week.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever do any favors for Mr. Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I know of.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live in September of 1963?

Mrs. OLSEN. On Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific address?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think it was 325 North Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Olsen live at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. In September?

Mr. SPECTER. September of 1963.

Mrs. OLSEN. 1963? I think he was at Theatre Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in September of 1963?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think he lived on Ewing, too. I don’t know the address; it was out further.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your relationship with Mr. Olsen in the fall or September of 1963?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, steady.

Mr. SPECTER. You were going together steadily?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have plans to marry at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. But we couldn’t because of me working, and, you know, the police department, the wives couldn’t work in a place like that, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you couldn’t marry Mr. Olsen at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was his divorce final at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess. I don’t know when he got it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he separated from his wife in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think he was divorced. This is just last September?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; he was divorced then. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever visit Mr. Olsen at his apartment?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever visit you at your apartment?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, he has been over for breakfast with a group, a group of people.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions was he at your apartment; that is, on how many occasions was Mr. Ruby at your apartment?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I would say twice.

Mr. SPECTER. Were others always present on those occasions?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. It’s hard to remember all this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was your apartment from Mr. Ruby’s in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I would say a mile.

Mr. SPECTER. It wasn’t a block away?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. I’m not very good at distances, but it was way at the end. He lived way out on Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. How many blocks was it?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I don’t know. He lived in two places, he lived on Marsalis once.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he live on Marsalis? How do you spell that?

Mrs. OLSEN. M-a-r-s-a-l-i-s.

Mr. SPECTER. When did he live at the Marsalis residence?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, well, I know he was there on July the 4th the year before, because we always spent July 4th over there, all the employees.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he living in the fall of 1963, say September, October, November?

Mrs. OLSEN. Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far was his Ewing Street residence from your residence at 325 Ewing?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, do you know the block number? Could you give me a block number?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I am not able to do that. Do you recollect his block number?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t know it. I just know the big apartment building.

Mr. SPECTER. And you don’t know how many blocks it was?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t; no.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you work at Mr. Ruby’s Carousel Club on a daily basis; that is, did you work every day?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; 7 days a week.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy was assassinated?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you seen Mr. Ruby before that Friday?

Mrs. OLSEN. Thursday night at work.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall whether you had any conversation with Mr. Ruby on Thursday, November 21?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I can’t remember. I didn’t used to talk to him too much, I stayed out of his way.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as precisely as you can recollect what you did on Friday, November 22.

Mrs. OLSEN. Harry was guarding an estate on 8th Street just a ways from where I lived, and I fixed a lunch for him and stopped off at the 7-11 store to get him some milk, and that’s when I heard that there had been some trouble downtown; a colored lady told me that.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that that you stopped at the 7-11 store?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. In the afternoon?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. I can’t remember the morning. I had the children and I can’t remember. We probably had been in the pool or something.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken that Friday morning, if you recall?

Mrs. OLSEN. It was probably late, because I worked that night.

Mr. SPECTER. And you cared for your children in the morning?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How many children have you?

Mrs. OLSEN. Two girls.

Mr. SPECTER. And their names and ages?

Mrs. OLSEN. Susan is 9½ and Sheri is 7.

Mr. SPECTER. Both of these children were born during your first marriage?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And after picking up the milk at the 7-11 store, what did you do next?

Mrs. OLSEN. I went up to give Harry his lunch, and he had heard it; some woman had called. He was sitting there and some woman had called and she wanted to speak to the lady that was supposed to be there. Harry answered the phone and she told him, I think, about the President getting shot, because he already knew when I got there, so we sat in the car and listened to the car radio, and that’s how we knew about it.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you there at the house Harry was guarding?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mrs. OLSEN. I called from there down to the club and this is when Harry said, “You are going to quit; this is it,” you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did Harry say that to you?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I was on the verge of it anyway, we were going to come out here last August and we kept putting it off and putting it off, and—wait a minute, maybe I’m wrong. I called in and I said, “Are we open tonight?”

Mr. SPECTER. Who did you talk to?

Mrs. OLSEN. The bartender.

Mr. SPECTER. What is his name?

Mrs. OLSEN. Andrew.

Mr. SPECTER. Andrew what?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Carousel Club?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did the bartender say?

Mrs. OLSEN. I didn’t get to talk to Jack Ruby. Apparently he was crying and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you know that?

Mrs. OLSEN. Andy told me. And I said, “What is Jack doing?” And he said, “Oh, he is all upset and he is crying.” And he said, “We are closed tonight.” And after all this happened, oh, I had no desire to get back in that business or anything, I was just sick over it anyway, so that’s when I said, “Well, I’m not going back.” I didn’t tell Jack this or anything, you know, because, you see, we are union and we have to give notice.

Mr. SPECTER. You told Mr. Olsen that day that you did not intend to go back to work for Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, business, the whole business, I was through.

Mr. SPECTER. And you made a telephone call from the house that Mr. Olsen was guarding?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after that?

Mrs. OLSEN. I went home.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you make that telephone call?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess it was around 1:15. The President was killed at 1 o’clock, wasn’t he?

Mr. SPECTER. 12:30.

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I must have got there a little before that, then, because I didn’t hear it until I sat in the car with Harry.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, didn’t some lady tell you about it at the 7-11 store?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, she said the President had been shot; that’s what she said.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what is your best recollection about when you left that house?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about 1:30. So I must have called about 1:15.

Mr. SPECTER. Then where did you go next?

Mrs. OLSEN. I was going to take the girls to the show.

Mr. SPECTER. What show?

Mrs. OLSEN. I didn’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Some movie?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; a movie. And, well, I didn’t; I wasn’t in the mood to sit in a movie, you know, and I really can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that afternoon?

Mrs. OLSEN. I went and sat with my landlady.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her name?

Mrs. OLSEN. She was the manager of the apartment; Mrs. Hall. We sat there.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Mrs. Hall’s first name?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?

Mrs. OLSEN. Ewing; 325 North Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. When you left the house that Mr. Olsen was guarding, did you go right back to your own residence?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that afternoon besides Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. Just, I guess, neighbors.

Mr. SPECTER. Which neighbors?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. I can’t remember the names.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you telephone anybody?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do later in the afternoon, if anything?

Mrs. OLSEN. I fixed supper for Harry and the girls. I think he got off about 4 that day.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, he was guarding the house that day. Did he finish guarding the house at 4?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think the man relieved him—it was 6. The other policeman relieved him at 6.

Mr. SPECTER. What policeman was that?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Then Mr. Olsen came over to your residence?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, as far as I can remember.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did he stay there?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we watched TV and, oh, we sat in front of that TV set for a long time, and we were all nervous and upset, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there besides you and Mr. Olsen and your two children?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you call anybody that evening by telephone?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody call you that evening?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. This is as far as I can recollect. I mean I can’t be positive. I just can’t remember that day too well.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did Mr. Olsen stay there that evening?

Mrs. OLSEN. We went out. We, you know, got nervous sitting there.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you go out?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it was late; it was about 11.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?

Mrs. OLSEN. We went downtown to a private club. We wanted a drink; we were kind of shook up.

Mr. SPECTER. What club did you go to?

Mrs. OLSEN. It was the Sip and Nip on Commerce Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Sip and Nip?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody there that you knew?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, we knew the bartender and the waitress. Because we didn’t get out, you know, too often with me working all the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the bartender’s name?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think his name was Lee. I’m pretty sure it was Lee.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the waitress’ name?

Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; not there.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there at the club?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they close at 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew someplace else?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we went—do you want to know later what happened?

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mrs. OLSEN. We went to the parking lot; we used to go over there and talk to Johnny.

Mr. SPECTER. Johnny who?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is the parking lot located?

Mrs. OLSEN. Right behind the Carousel Club; across the street on—what street would that be?

Mr. SPECTER. Akard?

Mrs. OLSEN. Akard?

Mr. SPECTER. Jackson and Akard?

Mrs. OLSEN. Jackson.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the intersection of Jackson and Akard?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. Jackson and the next street down. What was that? Field; Jackson and Field. And we sat in there and we talked.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Johnny?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, quite a while.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no. And we were sitting there; it was late, and that’s when Jack Ruby drove by.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did he drive by?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can’t be positive on these times.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time?

Mrs. OLSEN. I guess around 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he stop?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. We waved, and he stopped. He stopped at a red light and pulled in and he came in and sat in the car and talked to us for quite a while.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess an hour or so at least.

Mr. SPECTER. As nearly as you can recollect, tell me exactly what he said and what you said to him?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, everyone was shocked, you know, and we talked about Mrs. Kennedy and the children and how terrible it was, and he told us he had been down to the police station to take the boys some sandwiches down there, and he was real upset, kind of wild-eyed, had his real stary look, and he was upset that—well, he was mad that these other clubowners hadn’t closed down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which clubowners?

Mrs. OLSEN. The Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club. I hate to remember all this stuff, I really do. You know, I have such a different life now and I hate to rehash it all.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did Mr. Ruby say at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think he told us he had seen Oswald transferred, if I remember right, and we asked him what he looked like and he said he looked like a little rat, real sneaky looking.

Mr. SPECTER. He saw him transferred from where to where?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. He saw him down there. I think as they were moving him from one room to another.

Mr. SPECTER. He saw down where?

Mrs. OLSEN. At the police station.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess he cussed him out a bit. He was just real upset.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about what he intended to do?

Mrs. OLSEN. About his club?

Mr. SPECTER. About anything.

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say he intended to shoot Oswald?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Ruby knew Oswald?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t think he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald in the club?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen Oswald at all?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did Ruby say at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. That’s about all I can remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation about Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. Was Tippit shot that day? Yes; he was, wasn’t he?

Mr. SPECTER. Tippit was shot on Friday afternoon; that day.

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. I can’t remember, because I didn’t know Officer Tippit.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I read in the papers that he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from what you read in the papers, do you have any personal knowledge——

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. As to whether Mr. Ruby knew Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen know Officer Tippit?

Mrs. OLSEN. He said he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he know him well?

Mrs. OLSEN. He said he had never been over to his house or anything, he just seen him in the locker room, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of that conversation what did you say, that is, when Mr. Ruby came by and you were parked at the parking lot talking to Johnny?

Mrs. OLSEN. Just how terrible everything was.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall anything else that you said specifically?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say, “In England they would have hung Oswald by his toes and dragged him through the street?”

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any reference at all to what would happen to Oswald if he were in England?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can recollect about that conversation?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. How long had you been at that parking lot before Ruby arrived?

Mrs. OLSEN. I guess about an hour, as close as I can remember.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of that conversation, did Ruby say anything about the Weissman ad?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what you mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know of any advertisement in the newspaper containing derogatory remarks or unfavorable comments about President Kennedy?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby say anything during that conversation about the radicals in Dallas?

Mrs. OLSEN. The what?

Mr. SPECTER. The radicals in Dallas.

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what that means.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the John Birch Society?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the Communists in Dallas?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radical right?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby say anything about the effect on Jews?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything to Mr. Ruby about his closing his club?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, just in conversation I asked him how long he thought he could close. See, I didn’t give him notice or anything, I had to get hold of the union man first, because the union, you know, you have to give a 2-week notice, otherwise you have to pay them 2 weeks’ salary. But I got out of that, I talked to the union man and he said—well, I think they call it an act of God when something like this happens, and you just don’t want any part of working like that any more. I think that made all of us think a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you praise Ruby for closing up the club after the assassination?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, I thought it was the right thing to do.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him so?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen say anything about that?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen shake his hand for closing up the club?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they used to shake hands all the time. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you upset at that time about the assassination?

Mrs. OLSEN. Very.

Mr SPECTER. Was Mr. Olsen upset?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; very much.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about Mr. Ruby, how was he?

Mrs. OLSEN. Real upset.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him that led you to the conclusion that he was upset?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he looked awful tired and he would sit back and stare off into space, and he never cried or anything, but, you know, he would just keep saying over and over how terrible it was, what a wonderful man the President was and how sorry he felt for Mrs. Kennedy and the children.

Mr. SPECTER. After Mr. Ruby left what did you and Mr. Olsen do next?

Mrs. OLSEN. We came home to my house.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at your house?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. It was kind of late, I guess around 3.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mrs. OLSEN. I guess I went to bed.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Olsen do?

Mrs. OLSEN. He left. He was living on Theatre—yes, he left.

Mr. SPECTER. He was living where?

Mrs. OLSEN. Theatre Lane. He went to Theatre Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken the next morning, which would have been Saturday?

Mrs. OLSEN. Now, can I ask you, is this the day Oswald was shot?

Mr. SPECTER. Oswald was shot on Sunday.

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, Saturday? Oh, I would say around 11.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you——

Mrs. OLSEN. I had to go pick up my daughters, see, from the babysitter.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that you knew on that Saturday?

Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you telephone anybody?

Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone telephone you?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I have girl friends, you know, and we probably called each other.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall any specific girl friend who either called you or whom you called?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mr. Olsen later that day?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know if he was working or not. I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall when you did see him next?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. Oh, we went out that evening.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I’m not being very helpful, am I? But it was what, 9 months ago.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall seeing anybody else you knew on that evening besides Mr. Olsen?

Mrs. OLSEN. We saw Jack Ruby standing outside of his club. We parked.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess around 9. And he was standing outside and he covered up all these pictures or something.

Mr. SPECTER. He had covered up the pictures?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think he had covered up pictures.

Mr. SPECTER. What pictures did he cover up?

Mrs. OLSEN. Of the girls, you know, in the show. I think he covered them up or something, or took them out or something.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did he do that, do you know?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Mr. Ruby on that occasion?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. We just pulled in the parking lot and said “Hi, how are you,” and he said “OK.” It was just hello and goodbye, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Mr. Ruby since that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mrs. OLSEN. That evening?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mrs. OLSEN. We went out, but I can’t remember where.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember whether you saw anybody that night, or whether you talked to anybody you knew?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t know. I don’t even know where we went.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive home that night?

Mrs. OLSEN. Probably late.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls after you arrived home?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Olsen do after he brought you home?

Mrs. OLSEN. Went home, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what time you awakened on the next day, which would have been Sunday, the day Oswald was shot?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; my daughter woke me. Can you tell me what time did this happen, the shooting, and I can tell you what time I woke up, because my daughter woke me up and told me about it, because she knew Jack, see.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what is your best recollection as to what time your daughter awakened you?

Mrs. OLSEN. I expect 11:30, I guess. Because I get up in the morning and fix their breakfast and everything and then I go back to bed.

Mr. SPECTER. What did she say to you?

Mrs. OLSEN. She said, “Jack shot Oswald,” and I said, “Oh, no; don’t be silly,” you know, but I got out of bed and turned on the TV and it was just—it was just coming on, I think then, and I recognized him by the back of his head, you know, from his back, and then, of course, my neighbors started knocking because they knew where I worked and they said, “Have you heard,” you know, and, oh, I couldn’t believe it.

Mr. SPECTER. What neighbor did that?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I think my landlady.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. OLSEN. Mrs. Hall; yes, probably.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody else?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think Nancy, one of the girls across the way, came in and had some coffee.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Nancy’s last name?

Mrs. OLSEN. Ernest.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?

Mrs. OLSEN. She lives in one of the apartments on Ewing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. Because I think that was the night we were going up to—I had never met Harry’s parents. This was another reason I quit, you know, and I wouldn’t have to lie to them or anything, you know. And I was hunting up a babysitter, that’s right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on that Sunday by telephone or in person?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do that Sunday?

Mrs. OLSEN. We went to Wichita Falls—Henrietta, Henrietta.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is Henrietta?

Mrs. OLSEN. About 160 miles, I think. To Harry’s parents.

Mr. SPECTER. On Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think that was the night. I’m sure that was the Sunday.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave Dallas?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, about 2 in the afternoon, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you arrive at Henrietta, Tex.?

Mrs. OLSEN. I got that wrong. It was dark when we got there. I guess we left later, about 4. I think we got there about 6:30. It was dark or something, I don’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Henrietta?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, about 3 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave?

Mrs. OLSEN. About 10, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you drive back to Dallas that night?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see at Henrietta?

Mrs. OLSEN. Harry’s parents. And then we visited another friend of the family.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the name of that friend?

Mrs. OLSEN. His name was Harry. I don’t know his last name.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you visit or meet anyone else at Henrietta?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were at Henrietta did you talk to anyone over the telephone?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you arrived back in Dallas late that Sunday night?

Mrs. OLSEN. Went to bed.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you listening to the radio or television before Oswald was shot that Sunday?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I was sleeping.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any announcements on that day that Oswald was about to be moved?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Ruby on that Sunday?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that Sunday?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. After you heard that Oswald was shot did you contact anybody?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think I called Jean, my girl friend in Grand Prairie.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Jean’s last name?

Mrs. OLSEN. Jean Simms.

Mr. SPECTER. In Grand Prairie, Tex.?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of contacting her?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, about Jack, you know, what a shock it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you call her?

Mrs. OLSEN. She was my closest friend.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific purpose in calling her?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; it was—you know, when somebody you work for does something like this you just want to talk to someone, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you call anybody else?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else call you?

Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I can remember. There might have been a girl friend or something.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever go back to the Carousel Club after that Sunday?

Mrs. OLSEN. We went up New Year’s Eve for a few minutes just to see some of the girls that worked up there, and it was a real terrible atmosphere. We didn’t stay long.

Mr. SPECTER. Of course, Mr. Ruby wasn’t there at that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever go back to work at the Carousel Club after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go back to the Carousel Club to get your clothes?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you do that?

Mrs. OLSEN. When?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mrs. OLSEN. When I got the clearance from the union, he said it was all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you deal with to get the clearance from the union?

Mrs. OLSEN. Tom Palmer.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell his last name?

Mrs. OLSEN. P-a-l-m-e-r.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you get the clearance from Mr. Palmer?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I didn’t work for a couple of weeks there, so it was over that period, you know, a couple of weeks.

Mr. SPECTER. When is your best recollection, then, as to when you went back to the club to get your clothes?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess a week later.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see?

Mrs. OLSEN. The bartender let me in.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his name?

Mrs. OLSEN. Andrew.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he didn’t have too much to say to me. I think they thought I was a traitor for not sticking with them, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you crying at the time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I think I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Why were you crying?

Mrs. OLSEN. I felt sorry for Jack at that time, if I remember rightly.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say——

Mrs. OLSEN. Just a minute, I’m just trying to think. I think Tom Howard, Jack Ruby’s attorney, was up there at that time, and he got me in tears, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. How did he get you in tears, so to speak?

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I was upset anyway, and nervous, and, well, he just talked about Jack said hello to all of us and he didn’t feel bad about me quitting, anything I wanted to do was all right, not to worry about it, you know, worry about quitting. You see, most of the girls stayed.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at the time you went back to get your clothes?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. But you recollect seeing attorney Tom Howard and bartender Andy?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think that was the same day. I’m not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. But were you back there on any other day?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. The way I am confused, one evening we were up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that New Year’s Eve?

Mrs. OLSEN. Before I got my clothes. No; it was before that.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say you were up there, whom do you mean?

Mrs. OLSEN. Alice and I, a girl friend.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Alice’s last name?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think she quit, too, at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Alice’s last name?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh——

Mr. SPECTER. Not Alice Nichol?

Mrs. OLSEN. Alexander.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it Alice Nichol?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; Alice Alexander, I think it was. She was a waitress.

Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?

Mrs. OLSEN. Grand Prairie.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was it that you and she were there together?

Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember. It was some evening.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see when you were there?

Mrs. OLSEN. It seems like that was the night the attorney was up there. I went up to get my paycheck; that’s right; I went up to get my paycheck. That’s the night I was up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby pay you by check or by cash?

Mrs. OLSEN. Check, and then we would sign the check and he would give us the cash, you know, like that.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was there on that occasion?

Mrs. OLSEN. What occasion?

Mr. SPECTER. When you went to get your paycheck.

Mrs. OLSEN. That was when Alice came with me. I’m pretty sure that this was the night that Tom Howard was up there, and that was the night that I was crying, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anybody there besides you and Alice and Tom Howard?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; I think Andrew was even out of the office quite a bit.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave Dallas soon after November 24th, the Sunday when Oswald was shot?

Mrs. OLSEN. How soon? What do you mean?

Mr. SPECTER. Within a few days?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to work in Oklahoma City?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; that was about—I think it was about 2 weeks after. I wanted to make some money for Christmas.

Mr. SPECTER. For whom did you work in Oklahoma City?

Mrs. OLSEN. It was the Kings Club. I can’t remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an arrangement to go up there to work?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; an agent got me a booking.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you make that arrangement to go there to work?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, within that 2 weeks afterward.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Tammi True in Oklahoma City?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I stayed with her; we shared a room.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you tell her?

Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, we discussed a lot of things about it.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about with respect to Jack Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. What a crazy thing he did. And that I would never go back to work there. That was about it.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay with Tammi True?

Mrs. OLSEN. Three weeks.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did she live?

Mrs. OLSEN. We had a motel. It was the club owner’s motel where he rented to the entertainers. I can’t remember the name of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you left Dallas to go to Oklahoma City?

Mrs. OLSEN. No; just to make some money for Christmas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen have an accident at about that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; while I was up there.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened to him exactly?

Mrs. OLSEN. He totaled his car; hit a telephone pole.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say “totaled,” you mean a total wreck?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What injuries, if any, did he sustain?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think he broke two bones in his leg and he separated his shoulder and he had multiple chest injuries, black eye.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he hospitalized?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where?

Mrs. OLSEN. Methodist Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you later go to California?

Mrs. OLSEN. Why did we come out here?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we had no desire to stay in Dallas. He used up all his sick time on the police department, and, well, we wanted to come out here a year—well, last August we were going to come out here and we didn’t have enough money, and then he got his settlement from the car and I saved a little money and so we just came out here. We always wanted to come out to California.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the Friday of the assassination and the following Saturday and the following Sunday when Oswald was shot, during that time did you see or talk to Little Lynn?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Tammi True?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. OLSEN. Who?

Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin.

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Bruce Carlin?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Tom O’Grady?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him.

Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him either.

Mr. SPECTER. During that same time did you see or talk to Ralph Paul?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I called him on the—oh, now, wait. You are saying from the Friday to the Sunday?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Ralph Paul?

Mrs. OLSEN. I guess it was Monday when they reopened the club. I think that was the day they reopened it, I’m not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Ralph Paul in person or did you talk to him on the telephone?

Mrs. OLSEN. I talked to him on the telephone and I told him I wasn’t coming back to work, and he said, “Well, it’s up to you.” He was very cool.

Mr. SPECTER. What connection, if any, did he have with the Carousel Club?

Mrs. OLSEN. I think he is the owner.

Mr. SPECTER. The coowner with Ruby?

Mrs. OLSEN. I thought Jack Ruby was just like managing it, you know, a front; that Ralph had all the money in the place.

Mr. SPECTER. What else was in that conversation between you and Ralph Paul, if anything?

Mrs. OLSEN. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul tell you that Ruby told him Saturday night he was going to shoot Oswald?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure?

Mrs. OLSEN. I’m sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Paul tell you anything about what Ruby told him?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. During the time from that Friday, November 22, until the following Sunday on November 24, did you see or talk to George Senator?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Eva Grant?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or Breck Wall?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or Mickey Ryan?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him—oh, yes; I do; but I didn’t see him.

Mr. SPECTER. During that same time did you see or talk to Tom Howard?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. Now, this is the Friday to the Sunday, right?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Lieutenant Butler, did you see or talk to Lieutenant Butler during that time?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Detective L. D. Miller?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls during that time from November 22 to November 24?

Mrs. OLSEN. Other than girl friends?

Mr. SPECTER. Other than the ones you have already told me about.

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any telephone calls from the day of the assassination until the following Sunday, other than those you have already told me about?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see or hear of Oswald before November 22?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Bertha Cheek?

Mrs. OLSEN. Is this who they call Aunt Bertha, the one that works at the Colony Club?

Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to say.

Mrs. OLSEN. Well, that’s the only Bertha I know. I have worked with her.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know of any Bertha Cheek who operated an apartment house?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith?

Mrs. OLSEN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby was ever a member of any subversive organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the U.S. Government?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his family of friends was ever a member of such an organization?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know that either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s trip to Cuba?

Mrs. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s attitude towards the John Birch Society?

Mrs. OLSEN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s attitude towards the Minutemen?

Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what that means.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the President’s Commission?

Mrs. OLSEN. No. I wish I could help you, but that’s about all I can remember, just as an employee and that’s about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Before the oath was administered to you, that is, before I swore you in, did you and I have a very brief conversation about the subject matter that I would ask you about during this deposition?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you answer the questions for me at that time in the same way that you have on the record here this afternoon?

Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Olsen, we permit the witnesses to read the depositions and to sign them if they wish to do so, and during the course of the deposition with Mr. Olsen, it was concluded that he would read and sign his deposition, so this transcript, which is the typing up of the questions and answers, will be made available to you to read and sign.

Mrs. OLSEN. Okay.

Mr. SPECTER. And that concludes the deposition and we thank you very much for coming here today.

Mrs. OLSEN. All right.

Transcriber’s Notes

Punctuation was made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise it were not changed. Omitted question marks not remedied.

Misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Simple typographical errors were corrected; occasional unbalanced quotation marks corrected when proper placement was clear.

Ambiguous hyphens at the ends of lines were retained; occurrences of inconsistent hyphenation have not been changed.

Text uses both “twistboards” and “twist boards”.

Page 80: “look at photograph L” may have been printed as “look at photograph I.”

Page 163: “50 shares” was printed that way; elsewhere, the quantity is 500.

Page 190: “make me go in in early” was printed that way.

Page 280: One of the questions asked by Mr. Griffin was identified as being asked by Mr. Wilson. Corrected here.

Page 301: “having one to the Southland Hotel” likely is a misprint for “gone”.

Page 305: “first started to work for him” was misprinted as “stated”. Corrected here.

Page 306: “put a pouch on him” was printed that way.

Page 318: Transcriber added missing closing quotation mark after “talk to down there?”

Page 322: There is an extra closing quotation mark in the text at the top of the page, after “Jack told him”, or a missing opening quotation mark.

Page 432: Transcriber added a closing quotation mark after “closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.”

Page 443: “acquaintenance” was printed that way.

Page 485: Transcriber added a closing quotation mark after “You think you will be all right”.

Page 571: “it would not completely accurate” was printed that way, but is missing the word “be”.

Page 614: “or any other other Federal agency” was printed that way.

Page 620: “that might have have happened” was printed that way.

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