Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 2 of 6)

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XIV: Curtis LaVerne Crafard, Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II, Robert Carl Patterson, Alice Reaves Nichols, Ralph Paul, George Senator, Nancy Perrin Rich, Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson), Joseph Alexander Peterson, Harry N. Olsen, and Kay Helen Olsen, all of whom were friends, acquaintances, employees, or business associates of Jack L. Ruby; Earl Ruby and Sam Ruby, two of Ruby’s brothers, and Mrs. Eva Grant, one of his sisters; Jack L. Ruby; Dr. William Robert Beavers, a psychiatrist who examined Ruby; and Bell P. Herndon, an FBI polygraph expert who administered a polygraph test to Ruby.

Page Preface v

Testimony of— Curtis LaVerne Crafard (resumed) 1 Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II 95 Alice Reaves Nichols 110 Robert Carl Patterson 126 Ralph Paul 134 George Senator 164 Nancy Perrin Rich 330 Earl Ruby 364 Eva Grant 429 Sam Ruby 488 Jack L. Ruby 504 William Robert Beavers 570 Bell P. Herndon 579 Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson) 599 Joseph Alexander Peterson 615 Harry N. Olsen 624 Kay Helen Olsen 640

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Crafard Exhibit No.: Page 5202 1 5203 56 5204 62 5205 63 5206 63 5207 64 5208 65 5209 65 5210 65 5211 66 5212 66 5213 67 5214 68 5214-A 68 5215 68 5216 68 5217 68 5218 68 5219 68 5220 69 5221 69 5222 76 5223 76 5224-A 76 5224-B 77 5225 77 5226 82 5227 92 5228-A 93 5228-B 93 5229-A 93 5229-B 93 5230 94

Grant Exhibit No.: 1 430 2 436 3 436 4 437

Herndon Exhibit No.: 1 586 2 588 3 589 4 591 5 591 6 592 7 593 8 593 9 594 10 595 11 596 12 597

Nichols Exhibit No.: 5355 111 5356 112

Patterson Exhibit No.: 5357 128 5358 133

Paul Exhibit No.: 5319 162 5320 163

Rich Exhibit No.: 1 344 2 345 3 346 3-A 346 4 346

Ruby (Earl) Exhibit No.: 1 412 2 413 3 423 4 424 5 425 6 425 7 425 8 427 9 427

Ruby (Sam) Exhibit No.: 1 488 2 489 3 490 4 492

Senator Exhibit No.: 5400 303 5401 304 5402 319 5403 319

Hearings Before the President’s Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start out by stating for the record, for your purposes, also, Larry, that we are continuing this deposition under the same authority which it was commenced yesterday morning, and I know that there is no mistake on your part that the oath which you took before is still in effect.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What we propose to do today is to go through in some detail some of the papers which have come into our possession. The first thing I want to ask you to look at is a notebook, which is a blue cover spiral notebook entitled, “Penway Memo Notebook” and it has Commission Document No. 717, but for the record I will clarify this that this is not the same number as the numbers that we are using in the deposition. I will give it a deposition number in just a minute. I am going to mark this for identification on the front cover—I am going to mark this on the inside of the front cover at the bottom in pen, “Washington, D.C., April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5202, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am going to sign it with my signature, Burt W. Griffin.

Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of the record, count the number of pages and half pages. Perhaps it is a good idea to initial the bottom of each page with your initials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. In addition to the front cover, what I am going to do is number the pages at the bottom, and I will put my initials on each. I will make it clear that I am numbering only the separate sheets of paper. I am not numbering each side of the paper. We can refer to these pages as the numbered side and the reverse side for purposes of discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t you have the record show that pages——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 10 is a blank. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper which has been torn off and there is nothing written on that page. Page 14 is approximately a third of a sheet of paper, the bottom two thirds having been torn off, and it does contain penciled writing on it. Page 15 is a full sheet. Page 16 is approximately a half sheet with penciled writing on it. Page 17 is a full sheet. There is a total of 18 pages including half sheets and third sheets of paper in the notebook, and there is a blue hard cardboard front cover and a buff or dirty brown back cover which is also hard cardboard. Do we have photostatic copies of it?

Do you want to put that in the record?

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get them numbered the same way. We can do that later.

(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5202 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Commission Exhibit 5202, and ask you, Larry, if you recognize that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is a notebook I used to keep phone numbers when I was working for Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy that notebook yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I bought this myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how soon after you went to work for Jack Ruby did you buy that?

Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I went to work for him. You look real close on the front you will see my name on the front of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you write that in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what you see on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. C. L.—Larry Crafard, Carousel Club. Its got 1312½ Commerce Street, Dallas, Tex. It’s real vague on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an impression that simply comes through as actually scratches on there and doesn’t come through in any color?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t come through in any color.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you bought this book, did Jack Ruby give you any instructions with respect to maintaining the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just use it to put phone numbers down in, addresses of people that called in wanting to talk, called in, put the phone number down so I’d know how he could get in touch with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the notations that appear in there follow any sequence either chronological or by topic or anything of that sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take the time to look at it and see if you recognize any sequence in the entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. The first portion of the book on the first page is more or less numbers which was used quite frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to page 1?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; page 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to look over on the back of page 1; the reverse side?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is also numbers that were used quite frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at page 2.

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 2, I believe, was an address on the top of page 2. It was an address that I wrote down for Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the remaining entries on there. Were they numbers that were used frequently?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at the reverse side of page 2?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is only one number on there, on the reverse side of page 2 that we used very frequently. That was Little Lynn’s phone number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 3?

Mr. CRAFARD. From the numbers on there, as far as I know, there was only one of them that was used very frequently. It was Mickey Ryan. On the reverse side is just more or less notations that were taken down from phone calls. Then on page 4 is just numbers that were taken down from phone calls. The first number on page 4, Norma Bennett, that was that one girl I was trying to tell you about yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She was the waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was the one I started saying about that Jack had tried to get to work as a stripper to get her to work for this friend of his, Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that during your testimony yesterday you remembered her name as Norma but you did not remember her last name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did not even remember her first name, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you mentioned that her name was Norma.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you now say that the person you were testifying about yesterday who tried to get work and who was ultimately placed at work by Ruby with Ralph Paul was Norma Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the entry on page—what is it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 4.

Mr. HUBERT. Refreshes your memory to that extent, right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 4 is just notations. No. 5 is just notations, with some things that Jack had to do on that day. Then the reverse side of 5 is just notations, phone calls. No. 6 is some draws that I took on different days. The reverse side of No. 6 is just notations, mostly for phone calls that was taken. No. 7 is just notations with the exception of the top number, the top name, Joe Roskydall, who was a friend of mine while I was previously living in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, in the pages that you have gone through so far, have you noticed any handwriting in that book that is not your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you go through this, if you do recognize any handwriting that is not yours, would you point that out to us?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 7 there is just notations from phone calls. The bottom half of that page written in ink isn’t my handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize whose handwriting that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would recognize Andy’s writing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at page 8?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is my writing on page 8. That is just phone numbers, addresses that was taken down that Jack Ruby give me to write down, addresses that he wanted to keep. On the reverse side of that is a couple of phone numbers. I don’t recall what they were for. Page 9 I don’t have any idea what that was for. I don’t recall it all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting on page 9?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like my handwriting, yes. The reverse side of page 9 is blank. Page 10 is blank. A portion of a page, page 11, is blank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11, incidentally, is a half sheet of paper. Do you recall in using this notebook whether you had occasion to rip out portions of the notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times I took a piece of paper and put a phone number on it for Jack. Page 12 is just a few notations for some things that I had to buy for myself. The reverse side of page 11 is——

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the reverse side of page 12?

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 12, yes; is just notations. Page 13 is a couple of notations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13 is in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This number in East Waco may not be mine. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be 3902——

Mr. CRAFARD. East Waco.

Mr. GRIFFIN. East Waco, and that is written in pen?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I don’t recall I ever wrote it down, and it doesn’t look like my handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. Page 10?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; page 13.

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 13. The reverse side of that page is my handwriting. It is just notations. Page 14 is some notations I took while I was trying to make arrangement to ship a dog to California. It is about a third of a page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read page 14 for us? It is a little difficult to read.

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not even sure what it is, myself. I can make out the name Frank Fisher underneath, but that is all. I believe the rest of it is something, Boeing Insurance it looks like.

Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. B-o-e-i-n-g. The reverse side of page 14 is just notations. 15 is just notations. I don’t remember the bottom portion of that number wrote in dark blue ink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It begins with “WE-7-3037”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What page?

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three more lines which appear to read on one line, “063” on the next line “Herman” printed, and the letters “Flore” and then those are crossed out and written above it in longhand is the word “flowers”. And then directly under “Herman Flowers” is in longhand “from Wax-a-hatchy.” Do I understand that you do not recognize that writing, for example, “from Wax-a-hatchy”, as being in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Wax-a-hatchy”, I believe, is my handwriting. The rest of it I don’t recognize. On the reverse side of that is figuring. That is definitely not mine. Page 16 is just notations. That is about 2/3 of a page. The reverse side of that page is just notations, people calling in wanting reservations. Page 17 is just notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of page 17 is just notations. Page 18 is just notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of that is just notations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of the pages in that book which you have indicated are blank, every page in the book is filled, which means that there are only a total of 18 pages in the book altogether. Do you recall from looking at this notebook whether when you bought the notebook it had more pages in it than appear to be there now?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it did have. I’m not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ripping out any of the pages?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ripping out any full pages; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether in making the entries in that book you used pages in a consecutive fashion or whether you made entries on pages at random so that there would be many blank pages interspersed among pages that had writing on them?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of it, I believe, was—from the first portion of the book, from the front to the back was pretty well in rotation. If I turn it over to the back and maybe flip over four or five pages and make a notation in it, as I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean by that that you would leave some blank pages at the back?

Mr. CRAFARD. As I recall, there was blank pages left spaced in the back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your testimony would be that the book as you see it now is not in the same condition as it was in when you left Dallas on the 23d of November?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that book which appears to be different from the way that you remember it when you left Dallas on the 23d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any general questions, Mr. Hubert, that you want to ask about the book?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I would like to. What was the purpose of keeping that book?

Mr. CRAFARD. I used it, Jack would get calls he wanted to keep the number of and I’d write the number down in this book and later transfer to another book, and then I would use it if a phone call come in somebody wanting to talk to Jack I’d put the number down where he could get in touch with them at so I could give him the number to call.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you testified that the first three or four pages were made when you first bought the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And were in fact numbers that you knew or he told you would be frequently called, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the first two pages on both sides.

Mr. HUBERT. He gave you those numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were to keep the book in order to advise him currently, that is to say, daily, of the calls and messages and so forth that came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, therefore, that that book, in order to serve the purpose that you stated, it was being kept for, would have been used by making the entries in sequence as they came up and not skipping around?

Mr. CRAFARD. I used the front of the book for numbers that Jack give me that he wanted to keep. Then I’d use the back of the book for people that called in for reservations at the club or he’d give me some numbers he wanted to use right then, but he wouldn’t want to keep them, or something of this sort.

Mr. HUBERT. My point is that when you first started to use the book did you just put the first series of entries other than those numbers that were frequently called just at random on any page, or would you put it in the next available page?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be on the next page. Sometimes I would skip maybe two or three pages.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any reason for doing that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’d want to have the pages there, a couple of blank pages there, like this one here which should have been torn out. I don’t know why I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What page are you referring to?

Mr. CRAFARD. The reverse side of page 12. It is a list of some sandwiches I went out and got for a couple of the girls that worked at the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting to us that the book served several functions and that there were different portions of it for each function?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the back of each page was used for the function of putting down reservations.

Mr. CRAFARD. I might use two or three pages right in a row for that, or I might take a page right out of the middle of the book.

Mr. HUBERT. And leave it in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Usually I tore the page out. The pages I transferred over and when I got the book full I’d just throw the book away and get another book.

Mr. HUBERT. Which book are you talking of?

Mr. CRAFARD. These notebooks like this.

Mr. HUBERT. You had more than one?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had one other notebook similar to this, the same type of a notebook as this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did with that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you testified that this was the one that you started off with.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There was another one that you bought later?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I used it quite frequently. I’d tear the pages out and write down the reservations a lot, most of the time. I had this book and when I started putting reservations down I thought I’d get another book and use it for that and then I’d have this one just for the phone numbers and I wouldn’t mess up the reservations.

Mr. HUBERT. Then the other book, when it was used up, as it were, was thrown away?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have been through it. What we want to find out is if there is any way that one can tell by looking at the book about the date when any particular entry was made.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that you skipped around arbitrarily?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might be 2 or 3 days before I’d put anything down in this book in a row, maybe. Personally, I couldn’t say anything about the dates when I made the entries.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose that you hadn’t used the book for a couple of days and then you found occasion to make an entry. Would you make that entry right following the last one you had made or would you make it at some other page?

Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I would flip over in the book to the next empty page, put down an entry, and later I’d take the first few pages that I had left out, left where I could and there would be a number Jack would want to keep and I’d write the number down. These numbers on the first couple of pages here, I think the first page is all numbers that I got the first day and then the others is numbers I added to it later.

Mr. HUBERT. Then are we to understand that there is no possibility of determining the sequence of events recorded in that book by referring to the order in which they appear in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, an entry on one of the later pages might have been made prior to the one on the earlier page?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you testified, Larry, that you would sometimes flip the book over and make entries on the back of the pages, and as you have just done in front of us, you have turned the book over on its face to the back of the book. Do I understand your testimony to mean, then, that you worked, for some of your notations you worked backward?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the back of the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But am I correct in understanding that the pages in the front of the book which have writing on the back side of the numbered page were not entries that were made in this fashion that we have just been describing but followed in the ordinary sequence that you would have made in working from the front of the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. The first two pages in the book, as I stated before, are numbers that he wanted to keep. I would fill the front of the page and then turn the page over and fill the reverse side of that same page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you go through there, would you leaf through those pages from one on, and tell us what the first page is that you recognize that wasn’t made by working from the front of the book and filling in sequence the back of the page after you had filled the front?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be page No. 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the back of page 4 has entries on it which might have been made because you were working from the back of the book forward?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I believe so. I believe that is where I made those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also explained to Mr. Hubert that you would transfer some of the entries from that book into another notebook.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe the other notebook for us?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Penway notebook, but it was a larger notebook. It was a memo pad, I believe is what it was. Was wide enough that it had a dividing line down the middle of the page, a red dividing line down the middle of the page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who purchased that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long after you purchased this small Exhibit 5202 did you purchase the notebook that you have just been describing?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that book kept physically?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on Jack’s desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave that notebook at the Carousel when you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any entries that were made in that notebook which were entered directly into that notebook without being placed in some other notebook first?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a few in the last couple or few pages in the notebook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries that were in this larger Penway notebook which you have been describing, did they include all of the telephone numbers that are in this small Penway notebook which we have before us?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, not all of the numbers. There were numbers—the numbers that Jack wanted to keep and used quite frequently.

I believe all of the numbers on both sides of the first two pages were in that book along with some other numbers that he had given me that he wanted to keep that I wrote down there in the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the numbers that were placed in the large Penway notebook placed there at Jack’s instructions or did you place some of them in there on your own initiative?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was numbers that Jack wanted to keep and he asked me to write down, he had asked me to get another book and write them down in it so he could have them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you bought this larger Penway notebook, had Jack been maintaining a notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom that he used a notebook. He had a book full of numbers he very seldom used it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that book of phone numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had one on his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of a book that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a regular phone number and address book.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would recognize that book if it were shown to you again?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recall at this point if there were other entries in this small Penway notebook which you have identified as 5202 which you do not see in there now?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t say definitely that there was; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to refer now to the inside of the front cover. At the top of the inside of the front cover there is a number which appears to be “261-TA3-8101.”

Is that the way you would read that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would read it 261-7A3-8101.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what the number is underneath that? Read it for the record.

Mr. CRAFARD. FE 5-3366.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under that, 612. Do you have any idea what connection that has?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the name “Jeff,” which is written under 612?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that might refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next number under Jeff?

Mr. CRAFARD. TA 1-1782.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That “T” is written the same as what you thought was a No. 7?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In 261——

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a second. Half the time I’ve got to figure it out, myself.

Yes, that would be TA there, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it what you are indicating is that you have a tendency to make your “T’s” look like “7’s.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize this number TA 1-1782?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the top of page 1 there is some sort of a word written.

Mr. CRAFARD. The word “save.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. That I want to save that piece of paper, that particular sheet of paper, that I don’t want to destroy it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that the notation “Vegas Club” with its number under it is the telephone number of the Vegas Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next number is written “Jack’s home” and under that “Whitehall 15601.”

That is Jack Ruby’s telephone number at home?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what this next notation “Buddy” Fort Worth——

Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, Fort Worth, phone No. AX 3-0118 with the words “twist board” underneath it is the fact that this Buddy was a gentleman Jack called in reference to the twist board. I believe that is one of the gentlemen had something to do with making the twist boards in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what Buddy’s last name was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive. I believe it was Buddy Heard.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding as to Buddy Heard’s connections to the twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that he had something to do with the production of the twist board in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. What leads you to believe that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Because of the way it is set up here, he give me the number, he give me the twist boards. It was something to do with either the production or the selling of the twist boards.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a line, rather a vacant space under “twist boards.”

I would just as soon that you not make entries in the book.

After that blank line there is some writing “Fort Worth” and some other things that follow.

Would you read that into the record, and then tell us what the significance of that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the word “Fort Worth” phone No. “ED-51266” with a dash, and the words “give to Mike Shore only.” That would be a number where Jack Ruby could be reached and he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike Shore.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn’t want to give it to anyone but Mike Shore?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Mike Shore a person that Ruby dealt with regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he talked to Mike Shore two or three times a week on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Mike Shore?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure, sir. I believe he was in the club. I’m not positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Buddy Heard?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall where Mike Shore lived?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to state again what this entry in connection with Mike Shore pertained to?

Mr. CRAFARD. The number would be a number where Jack Ruby could be reached but he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike Shore.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever call that number, ED-51266?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the number ED-51266 entered into this book the first day that you got the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was within the first 2 or 3 days, I’m positive of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby at that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. I don’t remember making a call at that number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you which would indicate how often he visited the premises that that telephone number was located at?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of the conversation that you had with Jack which resulted in making this entry in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was over the telephone, and he called in, and I believe I said something about Mike Shore had called wanting to talk to him, and he give me that number and told me to give it to Mike Shore only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether he would be at that number only that day or for a short period of time, or whether he could be reached there every day, or what?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just a couple hours that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, under the name “Mike Shore only” there is another line which has no writing on it, and then there is an entry “St. Charles FL 7-0520.” What is the significance of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name St. Charles is the last name of a gentleman that Jack Ruby knew, but I don’t recall ever meeting the gentleman or ever calling him to talk to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be put in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, other than the fact that Jack give me the number. I believe there is reference to that same number further on in the book.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps when we get to it we can discuss it at that point.

Mr. CRAFARD. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page one then.

There are no further entries on page one, are there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And we will look at the reverse side of page one.

Now, there is a name written here “Abe”——

Mr. CRAFARD. Klinman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How is that spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. K-l-i-n-m-a-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Abe Klinman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know what his position was or what he done for a living, but I believe I met him at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a local Dallas citizen?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this somebody that Jack dealt with regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Four or five different times that I know of Abe called the club, and several times that Jack called Abe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number under there, “RI 8——”

Mr. CRAFARD. “4272.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Abe Klinman’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the next line there is something written in there.

Mr. CRAFARD. The word “personal,” the letters “UN,” that is a telephone No. “UN-3-0400.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose number is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Earl Ruby’s in Detroit, that is his home phone number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the Carousel, do you recall Jack’s ever telephoning Earl Ruby or Earl Ruby ever telephoning Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack phoned Earl two or three different times. I don’t recall Earl phoning Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why it was Jack called Earl?

Mr. CRAFARD. In connection—the one time that I can really recall was in connection with the twist boards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you went to work for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would have been about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do you recall about that telephone call?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that he told Earl about the twist boards, and he told him he’d send him a couple of them and some of the advertisement he had on them, so he could promote them a little bit up Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you overhear this telephone conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; there was something said about how they was doing there, how they was selling there in Dallas, and the fact that Jack thought that they would really go over pretty good up in Detroit, Chicago, and in that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a number under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” is written under “personal UN-3400” and under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” there are some other notations. Would you indicate what those are?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the No. 313 would be a code number, I believe, for Detroit. The phone No. “UN 3-5590” which would be the business number for Earl Ruby, and the words “Cobo Laundry” with the address “18135 Livernoise Avenue,” Livernoise Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. May I point out for the record that Livernoise is written on two lines along the right-hand side of the page under the line which says “Cobo Laundry 18135” on it, and it is bracketed off from a notation, which is “Ed Pullman” and on the next line “TA-34484.”

Do you recognize the name Ed Pullman?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was a gentleman there in Dallas, I believe, that Jack called several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what his dealings were with Ed Pullman?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I do not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line under that telephone number, “UN-3” and then “UN-3” is scratched out and then on the following line there is a name written. What is that name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Leona Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was she?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl that called in connection with or in answer to an ad that Jack Ruby had in the paper for waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this entry, “Leona Miller” would not represent somebody whom Jack called regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t really go with the group of numbers then that we have been talking about which were sort of permanent numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ed Pullman though. Would he fall in this category of people that Jack called regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number under the name Leona Miller, and then there is a blank line, and there is something written on the next three lines. What is that on the next three lines?

Mr. CRAFARD. Clark Dotty, I believe it is, D-o-t-t-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. WH 1-1227.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Clark Dotty?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page one does it not?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Just before you finish that, let me ask you this. I notice that there is apparently the name Clark Dotty written out at the bottom of page one or the reverse of page one, and when it is written the first time the word “Clark” seems to be written and scratched through and then Clark Dotty is written again under its number.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are both of those entries in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you wrote it twice?

Mr. CRAFARD. About the only reason I can see here would be the fact that when I wrote it the first time instead of the name Clark I put some other name down. Then I wrote over it and I couldn’t make it out so I wrote the name Clark Dotty underneath it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recognize the name Mary Ray?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet Ed Pullman’s wife?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Not that I can recall I should say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the top of page 2 there is an entry. Mar-Din Co. underneath that the name Henry Denture. The address 404 South Well, Chicago 7, Ill. Phone number HA 7-3172. Do you remember how that entry came to be made in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was the number, if I can recall right, Clark called in connection with the Earl Products Co. There is a company that I believe Jack said this Mr. Denture and himself had been partners in one time in Chicago. The company had went broke but they still had the papers and everything on the company. It had never been dissolved. He was using this as a name to sell the twist boards under, the Earl Products Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than contacting Henry Denture at the Mar-Din Co., do you know of any other dealings that Jack had with Mar-Din?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that Henry Denture was involved with Jack in the sale of twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you have that understanding?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack give me that understanding when he give me this Earl Products Co. number, this number so I could call the Earl Products Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the Earl Products Co. was at the same address and number as this Mar-Din Co.?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; from what I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on this?

Mr. HUBERT. I understood you to say that Jack wanted to communicate to the Earl Products Co. the fact that Mar-Din and Henry Denture would be associated with the twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 5202, I take it that the first six entries starting with Mar-Din Co. and ending with Earl Products all relate to the same thing, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And were all entered about the same time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not clear just what the significance is and I wish you’d state it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. This Henry Denture, he called, he said it had been checked with him in this Earl Products before in Chicago and he was using the Earl Products Co. as a name to sell the twist boards under.

Mr. HUBERT. Henry Denture was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack Ruby was, and he called Henry Denture in Chicago about the twist boards.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear the call?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was there when he made the call. I don’t recall just exactly what was said but it was something about the twist boards.

Mr. HUBERT. And he called a man called Henry Denture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he wanted you to make this entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a number he wanted to keep.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, could the name Henry Denture be a mistake? Could the last name really have been Kenter?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is quite similar and I could have made a mistake and put a “D” down in place of a “K.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after the entry Earl Products Co., there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there are two names. What are those two names?

Mr. CRAFARD. Doris Land and Peggy Taylor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall either of those two girls?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were girls who called in answer to the ad that Jack was running in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number TA 4-6895?

Mr. CRAFARD. Would be the number where they could be reached at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now under that there is the name Teddy Walters, and Teddy is written in longhand and Walters is printed. Are both of those your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall who Teddy Walters was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a telephone number under that. What is that telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. FE 7-4644.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry under that which looks like A. F. McKnight, with a telephone number LA 6-2251. Do you remember anything about A. F. McKnight?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack called, had a conversation with him a couple of times on the telephone. Other than that I can’t recall anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what those conversations were about?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 2 on the front side.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn the page over and ask you to look at the back of page 2. Now there is a number WH 2-2371. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is written in pen and then there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is the entry Riverside 7-2362 Earl Products Co. How did that entry come to be put down?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was a local number Jack had me put down for the Earl Products Co. If I recall right that was the pay telephone of the Carousel Club, and anybody, he said if anybody called the Carousel Club asking about this Earl Products Co. or anything about that, to give them this number to call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack didn’t want the Earl Products number to be associated with his personal phone at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was there a personal phone at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a business phone, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A business phone. What was the number on that business phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same number as on his home phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; can I go back a little bit on this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. Going back to page 2 starting with the Mar-Din Co., the number below that I believe, the HA 7-3172 if I remember right it seems to me that this number and the address were different. It seems to me this number was either a Fort Worth or a Dallas number, and this address up here was just an address where I sent something, or something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about that and it kind of didn’t——

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think the HA number is a Chicago number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is either a Dallas or a Fort Worth number after I think about it a little bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are clear that there were two different telephones at the Carousel Club. One was a pay phone and the other was a business phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the Riverside number was the business phone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry, there is rather a line with nothing written on it after the entry Earl Products Co., and then there is a name and address and some numbers written; what is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar, Wichita, Kans. The telephone number JA 4-4241. The telephone number JA 8-6116. Bill DeMar was a comedian that Ruby had hired to come down to the club, and these are the numbers where he could be reached. I believe one was a motel number and one was a business number or something of that sort. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries in connection with Earl Products Co. and Bill DeMar are all written in pencil.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I want to ask you if these would have followed in sequence or whether you were making these entries in there because they were entries which were to be kept or sort of on a permanent basis?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they follow sequence, I don’t believe the number of Bill DeMar, numbers would be anything we would keep on a permanent basis as far as I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also don’t think that Bill DeMar called shortly after or that number was given to you shortly after the Earl Products number was given to you so that the two of them were made at roughly the same time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that, sir. They could have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you about Bill DeMar. Did Jack have any business with Bill DeMar other than to hire him as an entertainer?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entries in connection with Bill DeMar, there is a line on which nothing is written, and then there is an entry Little Lynn OP 34, and then 817—JE 4-8525. Do you remember making that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember approximately when that entry was made?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn’t say for dates. It was made about I believe 2 or 3 days before Jack hired Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did that call happen to come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember how it come about, but he give me the number so he could have it to call Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack gave you that number or did you answer the telephone and get that number from a long distance operator?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack gave me the number. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that there are some entries. Some figures written on the next two lines. Can you tell us what those numbers are?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t know what they mean. There is the number 875, and number 1750. It seems like a hyphen behind the numbers with a dash, and a three behind that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any recollection what that might relate to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page 2.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to page 3. What is the name written at the top?

Mr. CRAFARD. The top line is “See Paul Lubeachick.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How does he spell that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is L-u-b-e-a-c-h-i-c-k, I believe. On the next line is “Here at 9:30.” That would be that Paul Lubeachick was going to be at the club at 9:30 and wouldn’t be able to be there too long and he wanted to see Jack and I was to tell Jack when he called on the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next entry is also an entry for Bill DeMar.

Mr. CRAFARD. It is Bill DeMar, Evansville, 824 West Idewild Drive, HA 3-7245, and I believe that was Bill DeMar’s home address; I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is an entry in pen which follows that. What is that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ruth Shay, Inwood Road, FL 2-5494.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ruth Shay?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl called in connection with the ad that Jack ran in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she ever hired?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a line and the name Mickey Ryan with a telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey Ryan, DA 4-4378.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a number that was put in there for permanent reference.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his home number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have saw Mickey Ryan probably about eight or nine times while I was working for Jack. Excuse me please.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me that number should have been on the first couple of pages that wrote down, but it seems like I transferred the number to the front of the book after I wrote the number down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mickey Ryan number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan’s name and number are something that Jack would keep on a permanent basis?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey come at any particular time of the day or night?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he’d come in sometimes in the afternoon for a little while and then maybe he would be in in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would he visit with other people in the club besides Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes Jack wouldn’t even be at the club. He’d come in and talk to Andrew and I, and just visit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These eight or nine times that you saw him, were they spread out over the entire period that you worked there or was it just in one particular brief period that he came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. Over the entire period of time I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the first time that you met Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not clear. No, sir; I don’t recall exactly when I met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about the first time that you do recall meeting Mickey Ryan and what happened.

Mr. CRAFARD. The first time I really remember talking to Mickey at the club I believe he came in one afternoon and I was in the club. There was a letter that had come for Mickey Ryan to the club and I gave that to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else receive mail at the club besides Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was two or three people that had worked at the club previously that had mail sent to the club after they left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have anything to do with the sale of twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Mickey’s relationship with Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know they were just friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any view about Mickey as to whether he was a homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey seemed to be pretty decent guy. As far as I could figure there was nothing of that sort there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how Mickey met Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have any kind of business dealings with Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack had a bookkeeper.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what his name was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a friend of Mickey Ryan’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. It might have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what Mickey Ryan’s occupation was?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, sir, he was a bartender.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a club called there a couple of days, a couple of different times asking for Mickey. I believe it was at the Gun Club where he went to work. When I first met him he was unemployed and then he went to work afterwards.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression that he went to work as a bartender at the Gun Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You formed that impression from what he told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. When they called they called asking for him and they said they wanted him in reference to a job, and he said he was trying to get a job as a bartender.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his having told you that he had gotten the job?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is the reason I formed the impression that he had been a bartender.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you so.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to go back to that top entry on page 3 “see Paul”——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish up on Mickey Ryan a second. Do you know what kind of a club this Gun Club was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had never been there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it just a bar or was it a place where people went to shoot skeet or trap or something like that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. I believe the call came in as the Hunt Club or something like that or Hunter’s Club or something of that sort, the call came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not sure that the name of the club is the Gun Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have any idea where that club is located?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is near Dallas somewhere but that is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if it is in downtown Dallas or in the outskirts or what?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was on the outskirts of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been a country club, a golf club of some sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am finished with that.

Mr. HUBERT. Going to the top of page 3 that entry “See Paul Lubeachick here at 9:30.” I think you added something to that entry to the effect that that entry meant that that man was going to be there at 9:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The part you added was that he couldn’t stay very long.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is the impression that I had when I talked to him, sir. He said something about——

Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection therefore of that particular episode and that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Of the call coming in; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a call?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The man gave you that name and said that he would be there at 9:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But that he could not wait very long?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something like the fact that he would be there at 9:30 and he wanted to see Jack, that he couldn’t stay there for any length of time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he came in at 9:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. After the club opened I was too busy to notice who came in.

Mr. HUBERT. With an entry of that nature isn’t it fair to say that you would have conveyed that information in its totality to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would have told him not merely that the man was coming in at 9:30 but that he had said he couldn’t wait very long.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having done so?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, sir. I don’t recall it clearly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever at any time after that see a man named Paul Lubeachick?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that you told Jack he couldn’t wait very long?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Jack’s reaction to that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe Mickey Ryan and a telephone number under there is the last entry on page 3.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page 3 to the back. There is the name Stanley Kaufman and a telephone number after that. Did you ever meet Stanley Kaufman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever meeting him, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was Stanley Kaufman a name that Jack would have wanted kept on a permanent basis?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it following the entry in connection with Stanley Kaufman, and there is a notation “Wednesday pay bill at phone company.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that something you were to do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Something I was to remind Jack to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would we be able to date anything in this book from that entry of Wednesday pay phone bill, for example, if we knew when Jack paid his telephone bill in October or November? Would we be able to draw any conclusions as to all of the entries in the book which appear before that entry “Wed pay bill at phone company?”

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line after the entry in connection with the phone company, and then there is something written. What is written?

Mr. CRAFARD. Riky Kasada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that somebody’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your spelling of a name that was spoken to you or did somebody actually dictate that spelling to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is my own spelling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is simply what we would call your interpretation of the phonetics?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Riky Kasada?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After that there is another name.

Mr. CRAFARD. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir, M-i-l-l-e-s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a she. She was the woman who called me in reference to Mickey on this job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, she called to inquire about Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember the conversation you had with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she indicate where she was calling from?

Mr. CRAFARD. She said something about a club or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it this Hunt Club or Gun Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any connection between Riky Kasada and Scotty Milles?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the entry reference on Mickey, there is a line and then there are some figures written there. Do you make anything out of those numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would those be expenses that you had or money that you took out of the cash register?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think if you sat here awhile and thought about it you might be able to make something out of this?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. It might be some bills that I had paid or something. Maybe some champagne I had bought or something like that that I had put down, the money I had been given and what I had spent.

Mr. HUBERT. You are clear though that those figures refer to money?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so by the way they are wrote down.

Mr. HUBERT. Is the significant point about the way they are written down that indicates that they refer to money.

Mr. CRAFARD. The number 1420 is wrote down like you write down $14.20.

Mr. HUBERT. By doing what to the 1420?

Mr. CRAFARD. Putting the dot behind your 14.

Mr. HUBERT. You put the decimal?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you write money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you would say that those figures being in your handwriting would be the way you would write figures concerning money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back side of page 3. I want to turn to page 4 then. What is written at the top of page 4?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Norma Bennett with the number CA 4-2234.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Bennett or Barnett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Bennett. As I have wrote it it appears to be Barnett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think the name is Bennett.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now who is Norma Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is a young lady that called in connection with the ad that Jack had ran, subsequently came in and met Jack. Jack tried to talk her to go to work as a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever work for him in any capacity?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir; not around the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first see her?

Mr. CRAFARD. When she came into the club the day after she phoned. I believe that was about 4 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to her at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your conversation with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just getting acquainted with her more than anything. She seemed like a pretty nice girl. We got along pretty well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain in the club that day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was around the club most of the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Jack there during that period?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack came in after she arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack stay while she was there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spent a couple of hours around the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation Jack had?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not particularly, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the entry on page 4 concerning Norma Barnett, is there any doubt in your mind that, as it is written, it is Barnett and not Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. No doubt in my mind it is spelled Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t.

Mr. HUBERT. You got that over the phone when she called; is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that her name was not really Barnett but Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I already spoke of her as Norma Bennett I believe when I spoke with her. I recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony was that you subsequently met her.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then learn that her name was Bennett instead of Barnett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I very seldom used her last name after I met her. I believe when she introduced herself it sounded to me like she said Norma Bennett when she introduced herself to Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Obviously when you heard it over the phone you thought it was Barnett because that is the way you put it down.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But thereafter you think you learned from her that it was Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I might have misspelled it to myself or something. I referred to her as Bennett all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you refer as Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I used her name to Jack a couple of times when we was talking about her.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever use the name Bennett to her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever using her last name to her, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that you really don’t know what her last name is?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the next word after CA 4-2234?

Mr. CRAFARD. Waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. And then under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Judy Armstrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What is under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Congress, the phone number Congress 9-2576, Carlton, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think those four lines beginning with waitress and ending up with Carlton, Tex., all deal with the same transaction?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the word “waitress” doesn’t deal with the direction above it but the transaction below it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that, a call from somebody who wanted to be a waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet that person?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall meeting her.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack called her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know if he called her or not, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; let’s pass to the next entry under that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me 1 minute, please. It seems to me this Judy Armstrong was a number that one night one of the girls was sick and one of the other girls that had the night off and we needed another girl and this is a girl that had worked for Jack, I believe, and we tried to call her. I am not positive of that. Or we tried to call her to go to work or something.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is that insofar as the entry concerning Judy Armstrong which begins with the word waitress and ends with Carlton, Tex.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You first testified that you thought that this was a person answering an ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you think that actually you all sought to call her to work in place of someone who was ill?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the way it worked out she had called in connection with the ad and we had her number down on the list of girls to call and one night we needed a girl and we tried to call her and couldn’t get in touch with her. Tried to call her to come to work and couldn’t get in touch with her.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the entry on page 4 was actually made as you said it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When she called applying for a job but you have an independent recollection other than the entry that on some occasion you called her to just see if she could substitute?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you reached her.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall reaching her, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never met her?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about Burt Nelson?

Mr. CRAFARD. Burt Nelson, Chez Femme, the phone number EM 3-6324, and I don’t know who Mr. Nelson is.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that Chez Femme?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is a place he worked, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a place is it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. I believe it was a clothing store of some sort.

Mr. HUBERT. A what?

Mr. CRAFARD. A clothing store of some sort, sir, I believe, I am not positive.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the entry under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, hyphenized, Floyd Turner, phone number LY 2-5903, Tyler, Tex. I don’t remember ever meeting him. I believe Jack referred to him as Budd Turner though.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a call that had come in or a call given to you by Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir. I believe it was one given to me by Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never met him.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear his name spoken other than in this connection?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s turn over to the next page then which is page 5. Would you read it because I can’t read your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 5 or do you want to read the reverse of page 4, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to read the reverse of page 4 I beg your pardon.

Mr. CRAFARD. It starts with line Linda phone number RI 2-0720, and the initials R. W. Bowsher.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that those three entries relate to the same thing.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then tell us what they do mean independently.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the line DA and the line number is a number where we could get ahold of this girl Linda, but the R. W. Bowsher I have no recollection of what it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to be written with a different pen or pencil?

Mr. CRAFARD. The pencil that was used for the word Linda and the phone number seems to have been sharper than the one used for R. W. Bowsher.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your custom to separate independent episodes by leaving a blank line between them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have done so most of the time; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In this case you don’t seem to have done so.

Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes I would put them right under something else.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyway your recollection now is that you think the word Linda and the telephone number under it is independent from the line that immediately follows which reads “R. W. Bowsher?”

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Linda?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir; I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You said she was a——

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was more like a girl that called in answer to the ad we ran in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. What about R. W. Bowsher, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything about him.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s pass to the next entry which is separated from R. W. Bowsher by a blank line.

Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy Heard, Loflin Hotel, phone number KE 2-4672.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t that 71?

Mr. CRAFARD. 71, yes sir. And underneath that the numbers 5336827, and 100 North Florence—and the word “office.” I believe that would be the fact that Buddy Heard was staying at the Loflin Hotel. The KE number would be a number where we could reach Buddy Heard. The next number down would be probably a number for the office. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And the telephone for that office.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe would be the 533-6827. I am not positive.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that those five lines beginning Buddy Heard and ending 100 North Florence—office are all related to the same transaction?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they are not related to the line which immediately follows starting “Burt called?”

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is something entirely different.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Buddy Heard?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I believe I have met him. I am not sure. But “Burt called” underneath that——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s not leave Buddy Heard yet. Does the name mean anything to you at all? You might have some recollection in your mind?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard the name mentioned several times but I don’t know what Heard done for a living. I believe he had something in connection with the actor’s union. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you have ever met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Go to the next entry, then.

Mr. CRAFARD. Burt will call later. You have his home number. I believe that would be all related.

Mr. HUBERT. Those four lines would be related to one another?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What would be the significance of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that this Burt called and wouldn’t leave the number but said that Jack had his home number.

Mr. HUBERT. “You” there refers to Jack, right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this was a note that was being written so that when Jack read it if he weren’t there he would know it was written to him?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Burt?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall who he was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. That finishes the back of page 4. Mr. Griffin, do you want to start with page 5?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you got through the entries “Burt called.” For my own clarification, did we identify where the Loflin Hotel is, which city that is in?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; we didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I believe that it is Dallas. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all of the entries from Buddy Heard to 100 North Florence—office——

Mr. HUBERT. That has been covered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the top of page 5 there is a series of notations. Would you read those off.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Get ad off to Hyman.” In other words things to tell Jack, to remind Jack he had to do was to get an ad off to Hyman, pay a phone bill and go to the bank and then appointment call to Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ad there was to get off to Hyman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the ad in connection with the twistboards. I am not positive. We were sending an ad to this Hyman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the ad was to be placed?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. He was to mail it, I believe, I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the meaning of “appointment call to Earl”? What is an appointment call?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had called and asked the operator to place the call at a certain time and to call him back when the connection had been made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The mailing of the ad to Hyman and the paying of the phone bill and the going to the bank and the appointment call to Earl, did these all occur on the same day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line drawn under appointment call to Earl. It separates the page in half roughly.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that line.

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be that this top portion of the page would have been 1 day, things I had wrote down for 1 day. The bottom of it would have been another day or on 2 or 3 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an entry there “get post office box.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that in connection with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was going to get another post office box to use for this twistboard setup.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he already have one post office box before that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was receiving the mail through the Carousel Club and his home address.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under there RI 1-0345. Do you know whose phone number that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a line with nothing written on it after that, and there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Pauline called” at I believe 4 and will be in about 7 or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was Pauline?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was more or less I’d say the assistant manager over at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Pauline Hall.

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 5; is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on those entries on page 5?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the appointment call with Earl?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Those entries at the top of page 5, the four of them, the things that you were to do or remind him of, were they simply told to you by Jack over the phone or in person and then you were to remind him the next day or later?

Mr. CRAFARD. Things that Jack said and I was to remind him the next day. I believe on this phone call he had tried to place it one day and he couldn’t get the phone call through so he arranged for an appointment call the next afternoon I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. If Jack did?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him doing it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember him placing, trying to place a call to Earl one day and he couldn’t make it and he arranged a call for the next day. But I don’t know if this was the incident or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What this simply means is that you were to remind him of it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was then your function with respect to it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Jack ever mentioning or did you ever hear anything about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jack had any dealings with any people in Wisconsin?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to the back of page 5. There is a name written at the top of the back of page 5. What name is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jerry Lindsay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jerry Lindsay?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called in wanting a job. He had been a floorman in another club and he called in asking about a job at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is a floorman?

Mr. CRAFARD. A polite way of saying bouncer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack employ a bouncer while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Jack about why he did or did not, why he didn’t have a bouncer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any need for a bouncer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not the Carousel Club. This would have been in connection with the Vegas Club, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a tougher crowd at the Vegas Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. They had sometimes some pretty tough crowds out there on weekend nights. People would get drunk and start giving them trouble. The floorman would talk to the man trying to get him to quiet and if he wouldn’t be quiet he would escort him to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club didn’t have stripteasers did it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yet there was a tougher crowd there at the Vegas.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The type of crowd that frequented the clubs, the Carousel Club and the other burlesque shows in town was the businessmen more than anything, whereas the Vegas Club’s clientele was more or less common laborers, working people. It was a dance club where you could go in and buy beer, soft drinks and you could dance, and the clientele there was of the rougher nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was a little bit confused in your testimony yesterday.

Was it your impression that Jack was doing better financially off the Vegas than off the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Definitely; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say that with positiveness? What makes you so positive about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two or three different times Jack said if it wasn’t for the Vegas Club he would have had to close the Carousel down a long time before. The Vegas Club was making enough money to keep the Carousel and the Vegas both running.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think he kept the Carousel open?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. There had been a stretch where I guess he had had pretty bad luck with the Carousel, hadn’t been making much money and he used the money he made from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel going at that time from what I understood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you were working there was the Carousel carrying its own?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir; to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you felt that in the month or 2 months that you worked for Jack, both the Vegas and the Carousel were self-sustaining operations?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After this entry about Jerry Lindsay, there is a telephone number TA 7-2553 floorman, and I understand from your testimony those all should be read together. Then there is a line with nothing written on it and there is a notation which I wonder if you can decipher.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Talked to Leo—Mrs. Grant.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall the significance of that, who Leo was?

Mr. CRAFARD. He worked at, I believe he was handling the floor at the Carousel most of the time. I don’t recall what his last name was. I believe this was the night that I stayed at the Vegas Club for Jack the first night. I believe Leo called and I talked to him and then I talked to Mrs. Grant right away. Mrs. Grant called right away after that and I talked to her. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that the call from Jerry Lindsay was also taken at the Vegas Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the call from Jerry Lindsay was taken at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that, EM——

Mr. CRAFARD. That is FL 1-9303.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know what——

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what it would be in connection with, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the next telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 5. Now let me turn over to page 6. There are some entries on there, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then from Sunday through Monday you have entries of amounts of money after that. Did you make those entries on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do those refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to draws that I made from the till.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what week that would have been that you made that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are not complete. Do you have any recollection on the basis of that that it was the last week that you worked there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so, sir. I don’t believe it was. I might have been but I don’t believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Larry, I notice that nowhere else in this little book are there entries of that nature. Can we assume that you only kept such records for 1 week or rather 4 days of 1 week?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was because of the fact that Jack had agreed to start paying me a salary and he wanted me to keep track of my draw slips, draws on that, and then it appears about Wednesday or Thursday he told me to quit keeping it, didn’t have to keep track of it any more or something.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was just on a draw basis.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you talked to him about a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he would think it over.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony now is that after you all had talked about a salary he wanted to know what your draw was so that he could adjust the salary accordingly, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that these entries would have been made about the time that you talked about a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. It would have been about 3 weeks before the assassination of President Kennedy I believe, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you talked about——

Mr. CRAFARD. About the salary; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It is fair to say then that these entries relate to that week, to wit, about 3 weeks before the assassination.

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be 2 or 3 weeks before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that the significance of the fact that there are no entries for Thursday, Friday and Saturday is that Jack told you that it was no longer necessary to keep a record of your draws?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did that mean with respect to whether you were going on salary or not?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember what it had to do with that, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go on a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. I never was paid any salary.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember he told you to stop keeping a record.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the reason that I quit. I don’t actually recall him saying so but I believe that would be the reason.

Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that refresh your memory?

Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; it doesn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t let me finish but I will repeat it. Doesn’t that refresh your memory with respect to the fact that you all had agreed upon a salary then? Could it have any other significance?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had said something; he said I would draw a salary but I don’t believe there was ever any exact figure agreed upon. I don’t remember of any.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Wednesday, although you had not agreed on what the amount of the salary would be, your recollection is that he told you it was no longer necessary to keep this because there would be a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. But there never was any salary paid at all.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you normally make these entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I’d make a draw. Usually in the evening I made most of my draws.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would put it in the book immediately.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; usually.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that sometimes you would put it in there the next day.

Mr. CRAFARD. I might sometimes the next day; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact also that at the beginning of that week you wrote down all of these days and then the entries were made as you drew for each day?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now an entry for Thursday would have been made on Friday, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been made on Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you just told me that there was at least the possibility.

Mr. CRAFARD. There was a possibility I would have waited until Friday but I believe I would have made the entries on the day I made the draw.

Mr. HUBERT. I am suggesting to you that these sets of entries have to do with the week in which President Kennedy was killed, and that is that you had agreed upon a salary on the Wednesday.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall exactly what week they had to do with, sir; really. It could have been that week.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had agreed on salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But not the amount of it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never were paid any?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. For instance, the Saturday before you left Dallas you were not paid a salary.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had a salary been agreed upon prior to that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If it had it would have been paid wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it would have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that pinpoint then this series of days as being the week during which President Kennedy was killed on a Friday.

Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry “Saturday” there is a blank line and then there is an entry “call home as soon as possible.”

How did that come to be written?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. It could have been somebody called in to have one of the girls call home or something like this. A couple of the girls had been married and had children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a note left for Jack Ruby or for yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it was for Jack Ruby. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you carry this notebook on your person at all times?

Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in the club it was in my pocket all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you were not in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time it would be in my pocket, anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number written after the previous entry, and it is RI 1-4643. Do you remember that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 6.

Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written on there, Schroll. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is the name Dick Gifford, KTVT, Fort Worth, TA 3-7110. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be written down?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or who that refers to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Dick Gifford?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was I believe an MC over at the KTVT.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how that entry happened to be put in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was something in connection with the twist board setup. I called him in connection with—Jack give me the number to call and ask for this Dick Gifford.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you say to Dick Gifford?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something on the price of advertisement on TV, for a TV advertisement or something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what makes you think that it was the price of a TV ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly this next line hasn’t got anything on it. It has been erased. I believe I erased it, 150 for 1 minute, and I recall this 150 for 1 minute was in connection with a TV advertisement.

I don’t remember whether I made the call or whether Jack made the call or what.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the line 150 for 1 minute, which is partially erased, there is an entry “Names of record shops where it can be bought.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of what it does refer to, sir. Probably a record of some kind that Jack was wanting to get ahold of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any records that Jack was interested in buying?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was buying records and bought a lot of records he gave away as prizes in the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of records were they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Such records as, Belly Dancer and Striptease for Your Husband. Rusty Warren records and such as that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were what you might call party records?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; party records.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show an interest in any other kind of records besides party records.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not for the club that I ever saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about for other purposes?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever saying anything about records for anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 6.

We will turn over to the front part of page 7. There are some entries there. Are those entries all in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first entry is Joe Roskydall.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us again who Joe Roskydall is?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Roskydall is the last name of a friend of mine. This Joe was a number in the phone number I called when I was trying to locate this friend of mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your friend’s first name.

Mr. CRAFARD. Robert Roskydall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Robert living with Joe Roskydall?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I figured they might be related. He had been around Dallas for quite a while and I thought they might be related in some way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is something written on the next line after Joe Roskydall. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like Benning, EV 1-6260.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that have any connection with Joe Roskydall?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Benning was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is written on the next line?

Mr. CRAFARD. W. J. Groveland, DA 1-5178.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a person?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another entry there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Dick Lenard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; who is Dick Lenard?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another one.

Mr. CRAFARD. KTVT TA 3-7110.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the same number that you had for Dick Gifford.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that indicate that there was a second call made?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that this KTVT here was wrote down before the other one was. It was later he give me the name Dick Gifford for the same number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry about KTVT there is a line with nothing written on it and there is some more writing.

Mr. CRAFARD. E. J. Evans.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next?

Mr. CRAFARD. Stevens Park Beauty Salon, 2140 Forth Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them to promote this twist board for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you call more than one beauty salon?

Mr. CRAFARD. I called several of them around Dallas. I don’t remember calling any in Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons.

Mr. CRAFARD. Talk to them about the twist boards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would a typical conversation go.

Mr. CRAFARD. I’d call them and tell them——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Introduce yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make any placements?

Mr. CRAFARD. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth Avenue in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be in Dallas.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you supposed to do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have brochures printed up?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you started to work for him did he have these brochures? When did he first have them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated he got them. He hadn’t got them very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they?

Mr. CRAFARD. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7½ inches long and I believe it was about 5½ inches wide.

It said “Twist a waist exerciser,” and then it showed an exerciser board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big were these twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. They were about an 8-inch square.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they made out of?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a 1½-inch pressed board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be wood of some sort.

Mr. CRAFARD. Pressed wood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a fiberboard?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is not a plastic though?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you lie on the floor on this thing?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; you would stand on it and twist.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this item?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know who originally designed the item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had designed it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board on it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 7, doesn’t it.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 7.

Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil, are those all in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what is the first entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that name?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that.

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the word “Johnnie call Detroit.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are two telephone numbers.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the note “Johnnie call Detroit Helene.” What does that have to do with—?

Mr. CRAFARD. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC’s Jack had working for him. I don’t recall the last name. He got a call to call Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Helene was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three blank lines.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a number written upside down. What number is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is RI 6-6807.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t believe that is my handwriting. It doesn’t appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren’t shaped like any numbers are shaped.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then Mulmore?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7 after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for Expressway, dash 5400.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let me see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is or is not?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn’t know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn’t know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on McKinney to 2500.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are directions to get to some place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; McKinney, but I don’t remember where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they directions for you or for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. For somebody else. I don’t recall who it was for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I give the directions to somebody else but I don’t recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out Central Expressway to the 5400 block?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney?

Mr. CRAFARD. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500 block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn?

Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying to remember. I can’t remember too much of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the telephone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these directions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those directions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of Dallas, the southern end.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8 there are some entries. Whose entries are those?

Mr. CRAFARD. These are my entries.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named Lenard Woods.

Mr. CRAFARD. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address, 3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson, the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number, the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436; the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia; I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack’s sister took sick. He had me get the names and the addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with them and also for he said tax purposes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the information there or did you call them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack’s sister or Pauline. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front side of page 8.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are those entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. The numbers, the phone number WH 3-9783. That doesn’t mean anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can’t make out what is underneath it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure. It could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this telephone number doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 8. Let’s look at page 9.

There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember every making an entry of that sort. For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times. These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t recall ever making an entry of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then something is written. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is as close as I can come to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 9, doesn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back of page 9.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page 10.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12 there are some items “supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion, tooth brush, code 10 hair cream.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And they are personal items?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you purchased for yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry made?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Bonnie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bonnie?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is after that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what is the entry.

Mr. CRAFARD. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an M or something up ahead.

Mr. CRAFARD. That signifies the mayonnaise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. CRAFARD. PS, I don’t know exactly what that PS meant there. There is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of this was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be Betty or Becky.

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill Remike.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple at 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is also a reservation.

Mr. CRAFARD. Also a reservation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 12.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now page 13, there is an entry.

Mr. CRAFARD. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bobby Patterson.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at the Vegas Club. I don’t have his name down. He had something to do with the band at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I met Bobby Patterson; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw him once or twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw him at the Vegas Club one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel, when was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how long he stayed?

Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn’t there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what he talked about with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something about, had something to do with who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or something of that sort. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight. I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player, saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his buddy’s chest and he stood on his buddy’s chest playing his horn.

I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this guy have been a police officer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I am very doubtful of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know any Bobby Patterson who was a police officer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is no question that you had met a guy named Bobby Patterson.

Mr. CRAFARD. No question there; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be 3902 East Waco.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before you didn’t think that was your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or could it be E Street Waco?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would remember it if I saw it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’d say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel. The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Were these entries “call Jack Carousel” and “Call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel,” were these your entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were those notes for yourself or——

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something I told somebody else or something. I don’t even—I can’t even figure why I would write it down. I don’t know. That doesn’t really look like my handwriting. I wouldn’t have put “Call Mr. Ruby.” I’d put “Call Jack.” And this looks like “Mr.” up at the top of the page. It is something I can’t ever remember putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is about a third of a sheet written in pencil.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that say?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure what it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other afterward.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then “Frank Fisher.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated before that you thought that was in connection with twist boards.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still think that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be twist boards or something to do with these dogs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think something to do with the dogs?

Mr. CRAFARD. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be something to do with one of the dogs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who was a friend of Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met him. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That information doesn’t refresh your recollection about Frank Fisher at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of page 14 there is a telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. TA 7-2553. I don’t recall what the number would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a notation about?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Tuna fish with lettuce wholewheat toast dry.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the top there is an entry. What is that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA 6-8303.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember making a call to that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that notation?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything to me. I believe I stated before I didn’t believe I put that down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about “Herman Flowers,” that doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the entry here “Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy” is the last entry on the front part of page 15.

We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of numbers written down.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those numbers have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on the page. What does that entry appear to be?

Mr. CRAFARD. “K. Hamilton.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody had called in for reservations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It says, “9—3 couples between runway.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.” It would be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry under that.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Cody-City Hall.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who Cody was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an officer of the law. I’m not sure if he was an officer of the law or a lawyer, or what he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the first name of the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what Jack really did say. It had something to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When would this have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shortly before you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number written. What is that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. “TA 3-8101.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whose number that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the doctor’s number. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under there is written the name “Dr. Aranoff.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your writing?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was Mrs. Grant’s doctor, as I recall it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation with the doctor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it. And the next line has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The number “FR 4-2764.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a Dallas telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that. It might be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the number familiar to you at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the number at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on the next line, what is written?

Mr. CRAFARD. “LA 8-4716,” the name “Debby.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the name Debby familiar to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then there is another line.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Overton Rd.,” and “Hawthorne” underneath, it would be Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, “Porta Build, Inc.” company. This is all something of my own here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Porta——

Mr. CRAFARD. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you worked for them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going to contact them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about, maybe seeing if they needed any men down there, or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you make that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. This was about a month before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever contact them about a job?

Mr. CRAFARD. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman wasn’t there that I had talked to, and I never called back. The Litot Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived when we was living in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the next entry on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half of page 17 there is a notation. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy go to El Paso?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he was in El Paso. I don’t remember exactly what it had something to do with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy going to try to hire him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Mary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my sister-in-law’s name is Mary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the next telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on there. What is the first entry on the page?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that day or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might possibly be $200.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the notation after that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack took $20 from the bar till.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry after that, “Pete White Atty.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a number, RI 1-1295.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything about Pete White?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is the next entry on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is, “Call beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser,” and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate to twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to page 18——

Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing on the page is “Jimmy Rhodes can tell where to get blowups at.” Some blowups of some pictures that Jack wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I heard Jack mention the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Wooldridge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then there is a telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. The number WH 6-6220.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that number mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and the notation “8-5 tomorrow.” What did that have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the name Bob Litchfield.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a telephone number after that.

Mr. CRAFARD. It is TA 7-9301.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a name after that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Mrs. Moddy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does it not?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which is right under the name Mrs. Moddy.

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it is her number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH 2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name Newton. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive of that. It doesn’t appear to be my writing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the number written under the name Newton?

Mr. CRAFARD. 2550.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I don’t ever recall of having wrote any of those written in ink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those are.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name J. L. Coxsey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know this person?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that be spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. His name was Lee Coxsey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same gentleman?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. And there is the number under that that I can’t make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is, it looks like LV or something. I can’t understand that a bit. There is the number FL 2-8995.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those things in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed from Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was either in Jack’s office or in the room right in front of his office where I slept days. I’m not positive whether I left it on his desk or on a stand in my room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you leave it in a drawer?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a desk, whichever it was. I’m not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask?

Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that normally you kept that book on your person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t leave it hanging around?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get a paper or something like that and I’d leave the book lay on one of the tables near the phone and go down and come back up.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you would get your book back?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from Dallas, the book was always in your possession?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the time you left for Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said are not in your handwriting——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you sure of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nobody else had wrote in the book.

Mr. HUBERT. No one had a chance to?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it that he carried himself.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had occasion to write them in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I never noticed them.

Mr. HUBERT. And no one else had a chance to write them in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that those entries were written prior to the time you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very much if they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In what ways did it seem different?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were more pages in it than was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Pages with writing, or blank pages?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall whether they was all blank pages or whether they had writing on them, or what.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages that are not in that book at the present time?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any pages with information on them have been taken out?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Your impression that the book is different than it was before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did before?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in the middle of the book last time I used it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when you determined to go away?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this business and they didn’t mean anything to me, so I just left it there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that deliberately?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn’t mean anything to me. I had no use for it.

Mr. HUBERT. You wanted to see that he got them?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know where you left the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. I either left it—I am not positive exactly where I left it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand where he would have saw it.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you didn’t write a note saying why you were leaving, where you would be?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t say why other than what I have said the other day.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying?

Mr. CRAFARD. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my mind to leave and I didn’t want to have to argue with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented your writing a note.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or of calling Armstrong.

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it a bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think at all about calling anybody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t even a matter that you pondered as to whether you should or should not call?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I didn’t feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what he had done for you.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to see your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you owed it to him just to leave him a note?

Mr. CRAFARD. It just never entered my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how much cash you had in fact taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren’t you interested in that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me.

Mr. HUBERT. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave word where you would be?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken $5 out of the till?

Mr. CRAFARD. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or something of that sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That required you to leave as hastily as you did?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving any contact points?

Mr. CRAFARD. Quite frequently; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family or friends?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I believe I wrote my mother and informed her.

Mr. HUBERT. This girl Gail knew it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is my cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your cousin?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to the people. I hadn’t been getting any answers. My mother doesn’t write an awful lot, and I hadn’t got any letters from my cousin for a little while. My sister hadn’t answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just——

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you going out with a girl that you had gotten fairly close to by that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and, as far as I know, went out to California.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart was normal in your life?

Mr. CRAFARD. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take off and go.

Mr. HUBERT. You have done that before?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Many times?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’ve done it two or three times I can recall. I usually leave from around my people, if I’m around my sister I’ll say something to her that I’m going to take off and where I plan on going. If I leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on going.

Mr. HUBERT. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem odd?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that view to anyone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so suddenly, without saying anything to anybody.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to your cousin, too?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I said anything to Gail about that or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on Saturday evening and the manner in which you left.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall saying anything to him about the fact that I thought it might be suspicious.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some suspicion.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him saying anything about it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and tell them where you were?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t think about that. I figured that if they were looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were looking for me I figured I’d go to the nearest police station and tell them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only thing I thought about on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you rather know that they were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn’t positive that they were. I thought they might be; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a pretty good idea that they might be?

Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I wasn’t positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Wouldn’t you want to find out positive evidence they were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by definite evidence?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought that they might be.

Mr. HUBERT. You just told us that you thought that they might be?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; I said that I thought they might be.

Mr. HUBERT. That wasn’t enough to cause you to——

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it isn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe that I was.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured if it was possible they might put something in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have went in and told them who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at your sister’s house.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I was at other people’s places that had radios.

Mr. HUBERT. You expected to get the information that way?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t stay with my sister all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on several occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where you were?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn’t done anything wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn’t done anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police station and turned myself in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed, shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that anybody else connected with him had done anything.

Mr. HUBERT. What made you think in the first place that there might be some suspicion cast upon you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn’t leave any word to anybody where I was going or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had left before Oswald was shot?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. So that really your concern was not that they would connect you with the killing of Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But that——

Mr. CRAFARD. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what?

Mr. CRAFARD. To anything. I mean breaking the law in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the shooting of the President, too?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to shooting of the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any of Ruby’s employees were involved in it, that would further the idea that I had been involved in this, in it.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually thought about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I felt——

Mr. HUBERT. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what you talked to your sister about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest police force?

Mr. CRAFARD. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be happening which would get you in trouble?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that would be the end of it and he would come to trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear that things might be happening which would get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was to get out of there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald, didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the President’s murderer?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.

Mr. HUBERT. You see the point now, don’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I believe everybody else has.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t really think of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that would give me any reason to believe that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today that the man should be in a mental institution.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing what he did, or from some other facts?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his belly and pulling the trigger.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In a police station?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is in his right mind doing so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had that Jack wasn’t in his right mind?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was markedly different?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?

Mr. CRAFARD. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds before he completed the sentence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about Jack being nervous?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very much that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he were afraid himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for himself would be nervous like this; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This nervous condition?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop and then talk in a burst again.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on then?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t understand what you mean by that.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President. Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on? Isn’t that a fact?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there was anything going on, period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say, a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a member of his own family, it seemed to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was something he said in that connection?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club or come to the club just shortly afterward.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think he said he knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the fact that he said he knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern over the death of the President was related to his concern for the convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is going to ruin the convention business.

Mr. CRAFARD. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you look at his activities, do you think that his concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the man himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you know what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from some sort of outside event?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied with after the death of the President.

Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to come back.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us you had two little cases?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you search around to see that you had done all that needed to be done?

Mr. CRAFARD. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I left there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that I had left there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s address on it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the envelope into the waste basket or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before you left had you received that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in Harrison?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a letter from my cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Gail, Miss Eaton.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said something.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a record of your aunt’s address?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she lived in Harrison.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.

Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?

Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had killed Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it. I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s being shot.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was and that I had been working for Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife, expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about that I might be suspected of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came, didn’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over the news that way.

Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed much earlier than when you got to see your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when?

Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an employee of Ruby’s.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that you would clarify the record on it.

I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George Senator?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship?

Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that topic, Mr. Hubert?

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced homosexuality between themselves?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two of them in this way.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep secret from other people.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability, whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that activity?

Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him, I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.

Would you tell us what that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was made before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more than I had been with anybody else on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the afternoon of the 23d.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t mention it to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be Armstrong; isn’t that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could have gotten it from?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too much. I had a couple of the papers——

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other news media?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to what person that might have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on television Sunday.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch television along the way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and saw him on the morning after.

Mr. HUBERT. On Monday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby, when you called him at his home——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the assassination?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I worked for Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen Oswald at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on Friday?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was the suspect?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you heard that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some detail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did first, how long you watched television, and so forth.

Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located?

Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into that office and start to watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we watched television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the telephone?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were three extensions or was there a telephone——

Mr. CRAFARD. The telephone and two extensions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to the telephone in Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was one by the bar and one by the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of those?

Mr. CRAFARD. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20, maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about 10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing, do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things transpired on television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the television on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards during that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby came into the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really recall what we saw on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were, between the time you turned that television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just watch TV?

Mr. CRAFARD. We just watched television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in his office?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?

Mr. CRAFARD. We went out by the front door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you watch television from the front door?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there by the front door?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy had his transistor radio on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was between the time that you and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t really say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a clock in Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal of any sort, any food?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you sat and watched it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you recall if she came?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same as saying that she didn’t come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would you, that she didn’t come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for example?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them came into the club, but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5, 10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long as 10 minutes?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one at the bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we could hear, but we was talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long pauses in the conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped, we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a couple of hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his office and watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with Jack in his office watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his office to watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came before we went back into the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about the dog that you were going to send to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a fair statement?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when that shock hit you.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you admitted it was a shock.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who told it to you, or was anybody else present?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is very vague in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us a bit more as to who actually told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was before I left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us it had to be Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at another time unless it was the truth.

Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted out of it.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is not true?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious thought.

Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought about for any period of time. It would have been something that I had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on a conscious level I will say no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well, how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about Ruby being involved with him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being involved until Monday morning.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other things, it had to be Armstrong.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think about this statement?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives in Michigan about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do you think you would have remembered that kind of information being conveyed to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been that——

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who said that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally that I knew of.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you out.

If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel, before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one reaction on you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald, I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been different depending upon when you heard it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you accept my version that there would be two different types along the lines I have said?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there would have been.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction, the first or the second?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did not.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I didn’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you if you knew of any connection between them?

Mr. CRAFARD. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I didn’t remember the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them, didn’t they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. HUBERT. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I evidently didn’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have already stated that this thing made a great impression upon you.

Mr. CRAFARD. I know that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry——

Mr. HUBERT. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he might have. My answer would have been——

Mr. HUBERT. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that he had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. My statement is that it did not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas might make you a suspect of some sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe—I don’t remember having any such belief; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby’s movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help them in their investigation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the motivation for Jack’s doing what he did?

Mr. CRAFARD. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you had?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now, it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in spite of having that opinion that there was somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have considered the fact that there was a connection; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start to think about this?

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In trying to think about that connection, have you been thinking about this rather regularly since then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost forgot about it entirely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it has been that you have been—have forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I have just almost completely—I haven’t had a thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about when you started to work in the oil field up there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember doing so; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might have told you that Oswald had been at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald had been in the club, but I haven’t given that fact too much thought until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the statement made and when you first remembered it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact that he had been in the club two or three times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it doing so; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are giving us here is simply something that you really didn’t hear anybody tell you but that you just read in the newspapers?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn’t know for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure now whether you independently remember somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from somebody telling you or from the newspaper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been, after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald, somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard that he had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say, you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had heard it after he shot him.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry, to see what—to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with me on that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. I believe that—I am not sure whether it was hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the television or something like that. It was something about the statement where I said that if he had been I didn’t know about it, and I didn’t believe Jack did either or something of that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you heard this you made a comment?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn’t seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn’t believe that Ruby did it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t believe that Ruby had saw him in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That must have been then after Ruby was involved?

Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, according to that it couldn’t have been before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. According to that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your mind about the man?

Mr. CRAFARD. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? Was there something about Jack——

Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out and kill.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a thing.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally, terribly emotionally, upset about the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is that Saturday morning?

Mr. CRAFARD. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard, that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack, there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more grief stricken than any of the rest of you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing his emotions?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not so far as I know; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about concealing his hostility toward other people, did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?

Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to leave the club and not to come back again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about whom he was annoyed or upset with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his sister Eva?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr. Weinstein they got along fairly good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward, that he would only display this in the presence of that person in solving some problem with the individual face to face?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the exact time; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave before Jack left?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was after Jack left.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the courthouse in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about Oswald.

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a newspaper?

Mr. CRAFARD. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or that it was believed that he had?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing, weren’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had been told that Oswald had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have been doing so right along.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook, and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it. Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.

Mr. CRAFARD. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you believe that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there are what you call tear sheets.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the first one say?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Jot it down....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Do it....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. The third?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Tear it out....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the fourth?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Live notes only.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on the front cover?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it is his handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize any of them.

Mr. CRAFARD. There are a few in there I know the names of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandy?

Mr. CRAFARD. That has no meaning to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Pepper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she had been a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard some talk about her?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Strike that. Jack Yanover?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Harold Tannebaum?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margaret Caldwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say Dial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jules Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Gigi?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not employed there while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard mention of the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Wally Rack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that person?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Robbins?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Iwana Birdwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ferris?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Skip Hutcheson?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort of performed the job you did before you came?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the time——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lynd Chenalt?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about W. O. Chenalt?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Brenda?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that Augie?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the name means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John, is that Rogers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so. It don’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Bruce?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name would have been Little Lynn’s correct name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, her correct name was Bruce?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought her last name was Carlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. Her husband’s name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t put any meaning to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in the band?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was one of the band players.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gino Skaggs?

Mr. CRAFARD. Means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dottie Walters?

Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Brown?

Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters at the club for him. That is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been his employment?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he connected with AGVA?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandra Moran?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. CRAFARD. She was one of the strippers while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Andy?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Andrea Dalk?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name means nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this Kathy?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lorri Womack?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Margaret?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Judy Oberlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. George, Sherman, Tex.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Kelley?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Eberhardt?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Russ Knight?

Mr. CRAFARD. Russ Knight—that doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Charles Senator?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The House of Loan?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jeannie?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jeanine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jeanine.

Mr. CRAFARD. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What name did she strip under?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used a French last name. She was of French descent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No. 985?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we have talked about George. Johnny Hayden?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Herrod?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was the comedian, I believe. Jack employed him for a short while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some building repairs for him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that. Corrigan, doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chuck Isaacs?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t read this.

Mr. CRAFARD. Davis Kitter—something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitter something or other.

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Earl Wilson?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tony Turner?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Busch?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t mean anything to me either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Cook?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Hickman?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?

Mr. CRAFARD. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn’t know what Kay that would be?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nicki?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dolores Meridith?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiliford Jackson?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Phil Olian?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean a thing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing I believe he had a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in the past.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was either from Mexico or South America.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago had he employed this stripper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her name on it, Spanish name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Billie?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Toni Rebel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector. Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take a polygraph test. I don’t know whether that was Affiliated or what.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was hung on the front of the cash register.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a polygraph test?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo Larve?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail or Carol?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steele?

Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked there at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?

Mr. CRAFARD. It means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever hear him talk about anybody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?

Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would—Segel as it is used there wouldn’t mean anything to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a Segel that Jack——

Mr. CRAFARD. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where he bought champagne and other wines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stewart’s Photo?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Hall, Monroe, La.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Luke of the Times Herald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. H. G. Tiger?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Vivian?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Statler Barbershop.

Mr. CRAFARD. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Jack got his hair cut?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dovie?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1 through 9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this, “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April 9, 1964,” and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that? It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word “Addresses.” It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me whether you have ever seen that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had, kept, in his drawer in his desk.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your Penway Spiral into?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203 you believe Jack kept in his pocket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204, you believe he kept in his desk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one was in his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t have the larger Penway notebook until——

Mr. CRAFARD. Until after I went to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6 inches long, and about 4½ inches wide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let us look at these names in here.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil Hamlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are?

Mr. CRAFARD. Century Distributors, Inc.?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what are they?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any prizefighters?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I knew of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. J. McWillie?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever meeting any other people with Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce McDonald?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t—it seems like there was a couple of men with them, but I was never introduced to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record that this notebook which we have consists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which is marked “Addresses,” and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20, two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost 40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been marked as “Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964,” and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in which that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be the Carousel Club.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see the portion of the runway across here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is in the lower left-hand corner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I see one of the waitresses back in the background. I can’t make out which one it is on the upper right-hand portion, standing holding a tray, but I can’t make out who it is though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club before?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t recall seeing him at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that picture of yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; definitely not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say definitely not?

Mr. CRAFARD. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You always wore a suit?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a gold livery jacket on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of identification as “Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard. April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5206,” and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the place where that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the center runway.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the left side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Blond hair?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is—how about the man who appears to be dressed in a tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him?

Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the—his photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked there?

Mr. CRAFARD. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they was doing when this picture was taken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what that depicts?

Mr. CRAFARD. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say; they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel, and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were doing at that time; giving away prizes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they give away prizes every night?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; weekends mostly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about during the week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size of the crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did Jack get his prizes?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a raffle or different nights?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have, give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their choices out of the prizes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as “C. L. Crafard, April 1964, 5207,” and I have signed my name to it. That is a photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was taken in Mr. Ruby’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time that you worked there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot see it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of them, the TV set in the corner over this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby’s position in the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner?

Mr. CRAFARD. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk through Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was a connecting door from his office to my room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door that enters Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the right-hand side, who is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the wall or at one end of the wall?

Mr. CRAFARD. More or less to the end of the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back. And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put them on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of papers did he keep up there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up on kind of a wire peg that he put them on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was that photograph taken at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Do you want me to describe it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you?

Mr. CRAFARD. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I should say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the date, but this photograph would have been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine taking pictures. It would have been taken by him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a couple of evenings.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever recall Jack going up on stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It wasn’t his custom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in the photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. It wasn’t taken in the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recognize anybody in the picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were looking at the costume she had on, wasn’t anything I remembered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are?

Mr. CRAFARD. A stripper. I don’t remember her name right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl?

Mr. CRAFARD. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks like Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There are dogs in that—dachshund dogs in that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a photography stunt more than anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they regularly used in acts?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less like, say, for a photographic stunt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were on, while an act was in progress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I’d take them off when it was over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the customer area, also be?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in progress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see faces in the audience?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were sitting right next, and then you wouldn’t recognize them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were——

Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me a minute, please.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who he was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself, but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This picture that you are looking at, this large photograph, is actually a series of small photographs?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs where you can just vaguely see me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, that set of photographs?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first series. I can see Johnny on the stage again.

The next one shows Johnny.

The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is shown?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember his name. He was to the club on several different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one.

In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them.

And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack’s office holding some stuffed animals.

The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of his puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you associate any name with this man?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember his name, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in the notebooks today?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. I wouldn’t remember his name if I saw it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy Armstrong know him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in the same place.

There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs.

Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. The stripper is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In all of the pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the patrons?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you?

Mr. CRAFARD. This doesn’t look like me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not me at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that your photograph appears in a number of these pictures.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is seated second from the left along the runway.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the same position?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture immediately below that which is the third from the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the stripper is Little Lynn?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in the same position third from the bottom?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the same position at the bottom?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt, also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit?

Mr. CRAFARD. During the day, up until about 5 o’clock, I was normally dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn’t care to wear a suit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion Exhibit 5213.

Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at these pictures and tell me looking at the picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the photograph right below that there are two girls. Who is the blond?

Mr. CRAFARD. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room. The next photograph is the same.

The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; except on the top picture on the right-hand corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same position as before.

On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo.

The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the time?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the only other employees he had at that particular time were strippers or entertainers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; strippers and the waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So let me understand this. That while you were there, Billy DeMar was employed there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Johnny Turner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And anyone else?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was all. I can’t remember who the M.C. was when I first went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a different one other than the three we have mentioned?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. That is what I was trying to remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these M.C.’s have a regular run of a prescribed number of weeks that they would play?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; maybe they might come in for 2 or 3 weeks, or they might be there for 1 week and then they might stay for 3 or 4 months. It would depend on the contract that they signed with Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Heard ever come and appear?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe he was ever there while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 5214 and I want to ask you if you recognize any of the patrons in those photographs.

Mr. CRAFARD. The heavy set gentleman that has been mentioned before is in the second photograph in the left-hand series. He is in the first photograph in the middle series. That is all. But other than that, I don’t recognize any of the other patrons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you now what has been marked as 5214-A and all the markings are in the same fashion as the previous ones. Do you recognize any of the patrons in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. The patron in the second and third photographs on the right-hand side looks familiar but I can’t place him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am handing you is Exhibit 5215 which is also marked in the same fashion as the others. Do you recognize any of the patrons there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5216. You will notice that this appears to be the interior of a dressing room and there is some sort of a plaque on the wall in the top two photographs in the center and the photograph in the lower right-hand corner. Do you recall what that plaque is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state whether that picture was taken at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recognize those as Carousel Club dressing rooms?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes. The dressing rooms have been redecorated since I worked there, I know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dressing rooms look as they appear in that photograph at any time while you were employed at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe that is the dressing room of the Carousel. I don’t remember this stuff along the bottom picture, the left-hand side of the bottom picture in the left-hand column. The plywood door that is shown in several pictures, I don’t recognize that as being of the dressing room at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same fashion as Exhibit 5217. Do you recognize the patron that is shown in that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t, but I believe from this picture I can pretty well state that that other last picture was photographs of the girls’ dressing room, from the location of the table. Instead of a door that was a window that had been boarded up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5218 which has been marked in the same fashion. Do you recognize any of the patrons in that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Exhibit 5219 which has been marked in the same fashion? Do you recognize any of those patrons?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only that I believe this one has been showed in previous pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a duplicate of something we already have?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it is a duplicate, but I believe this gentleman in the white shirt has been shown in previous pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about 5220? Do you recognize any of the patrons there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only this one gentleman here. I can make him out especially in the bottom picture in the middle column.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the white shirt on?

Mr. CRAFARD. The gentleman with the short-sleeved white shirt on I can recognize him from the previous pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have a recollection of who he is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t have a recollection of who he is. I don’t think I ever knew the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Exhibit 5221, do you recognize any of the patrons in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only the gentleman on the right-hand would be the back down in the picture towards the right-hand side would be the far side of the stage the heavy set gentlemen that has been mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know a man named Bernard Weissman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Ruby or anybody indicate that Officer Tippit was ever in the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember of hearing any indication.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about that Bernard Weissman? Was he in the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember any indication of that, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had a pistol, but it was in Oregon when I was in Texas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a pistol was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. A .22.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned any other sort of a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in military service, did you have any training with a rifle?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had training with the M-1 rifle and with the M-1 carbine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex., did you ever have any occasion to go out to any rifle ranges?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to any rifle ranges?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your answer is you don’t know?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did not know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Dallas, Tex., did you attempt to purchase an automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any used car lots?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack Ruby’s car?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive an automobile at any time while you were in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever accompany anybody in an automobile to have it repaired?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe when you talked with the FBI, you indicated that you visited a store with Jack where he was going to get some electrical or electronic equipment.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you began to work for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 3 or 4 weeks after I went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talk about working for Jack, do you mean that to include the time that you were working at the Dallas, Tex., State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As working for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only the time, from the time the State fair closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of electrical equipment Jack was purchasing, looking for when you went with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Some speakers and—that is the boxes that are used to work a speaker out of, the amplifier box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going to use these items?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he had those items there before?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had the items in the Carousel Club, but he was going to replace them with some better models.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his existing models defective in any way?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was always something going wrong with one speaker or the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually replace these?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened at the electronics store that you visited?

Mr. CRAFARD. He talked with the gentleman for a few minutes and I believe he give them a free pass to the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do in connection with buying equipment?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had checked out some equipment they had there, their prices, the types of equipment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What price range of equipment was he talking about?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was wanting to get a better model amplifier as cheaply as he could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been an expenditure of over $100?

Mr. CRAFARD. I really don’t know, but I don’t believe so. Could I go back a little bit to the day. I believe that was about a week after I went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you testified yesterday I think that the girl whom you identified in some pictures taken on the street outside the Carousel with Jack Ruby, you identified this girl as Gloria McDonald.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could her name have been Gloria Fillmore?

Mr. CRAFARD. Her name could have been, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure about the name McDonald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact if I may be allowed to say so, I am not positive that this girl is the girl I knew as Gloria. Her name could have been something entirely different. I believe it was Gloria.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it was Gloria in this picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not completely positive.

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I never knew her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit. Going back to Wednesday, November 20, 2 days before the President was killed, and Thursday, November 21, do you remember on either of those 2 days receiving any telephone calls from Bruce Carlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Bruce called the evening of Wednesday, the 20th wanting to speak to Little Lynn. I am not positive but I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how about on the 21st. Do you remember anything on the 21st?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything, no. He might have but I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever remember on the 21st a telephone call being placed to Jack Ruby in the early portion of the evening, and your answering the phone and talking to the person on the phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce Carlin ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby in your recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever doing so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Bruce Carlin’s friends?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a boy named Jerry Bunker?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce used to call the Carousel regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. There was only one or two occasions when I am sure that Bruce called the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When are the other occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the evening of Wednesday the 20th Little Lynn hadn’t went straight home from the club and he called asking, wanting to know where she was at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of the financial condition of Little Lynn or Bruce Carlin the week before the President died?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn ever complain in your presence about not having enough money?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that when she first went to work for Jack, Jack either gave her an advance or loaned her some money, one or the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I recall yesterday in your talking with Mr. Hubert there was some problem you felt that you had lost 8 hours in describing what happened on your trip from Dallas to your destination in Michigan.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the time that has passed since then, have you been able to find those 8 hours that were lost?

Mr. CRAFARD. Pretty well, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think happened?

Mr. CRAFARD. I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City and spent quite a bit of time getting back. There is where I lost the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive in Oklahoma City?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 7 o’clock in the evening of the 23d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did you happen to get mixed up on your routes?

Mr. CRAFARD. I got a ride with this gentleman and I believe he said something about getting me out on my route or something like that, and I got mixed up on my route.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ride with him in the wrong direction for a while?

Mr. CRAFARD. He took me out, he took me quite a ways more than where I had to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On that basis what time would you say that you arrived in Chicago?

Mr. CRAFARD. It probably would put me in Chicago sometime Monday, about 10:30 or 11 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago, then you knew that Ruby had killed Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive in Lansing, Mich.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 6:30 or 7 o’clock Monday evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago did you make any effort to call any of the Rubensteins?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that occur to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that arrival in Lansing would have been about 3:30 or 4 o’clock. It would have been a couple hours earlier.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that the ride that you had got out of Dallas on the 23d with a man whom you had met at the Dallas State Fair.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the Dallas State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was a photography place on the fairgrounds. He worked there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a full-time employee at the fairgrounds or was this a temporary thing?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was just temporary for the fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the photography place?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of different photographers at the fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three different ones at the fairgrounds. This one was right close to the place I worked was located.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from a tent? Were you in a tent?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from your tent?

Mr. CRAFARD. About 150 or 200 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In which direction?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been down on the main midway. It would have been right on a corner of the main midway and the portion of the midway I was on. We were located on a branch off the main midway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say this man was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say he was probably in at least his middle forties, more likely in his late forties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he bald or did he have hair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a graying man or what color was his hair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a car he owned?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had a Chevy. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe his physical build, anything remarkable about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could think of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a thin man?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was about medium build for a man his age and height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say he had a young boy with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had a son about I believe 9 or 10 years old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you catch the son’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his name? Did you learn his first name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I more than likely knew his name but I don’t remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the photography studio?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure just what he did do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a Dallas studio that had a place there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there some central office of the Dallas State Fair that would keep records of the people who had charge of tents or booths there?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the fair commission would know anyone that had any kind of a stand or concession on the midway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would this commission have its office when the season was not in session?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be on the fairgrounds. I am not sure where though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is some sort of permanent office there on the fairgrounds?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the Dallas Fairgrounds is one of the largest fairgrounds in Texas. It is open the year around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your belief that this man knew you worked for Jack Ruby as he was taking you out of Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we had got to talking and I told him I had been working at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that you were with that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe a half hour or maybe 45 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your belief that he had a cottage at some sort of a lake?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What place?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name of the lake he lived on, that he had his cottage on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you remember somewhat where he left you off and in what direction he had to turn?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the left of 77 when he let me off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Dallas on route 77?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far would you say you went on route 77?

Mr. CRAFARD. We were about 20 miles outside the city limits of Dallas at Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He let you off in Carrollton?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the other side of Carrollton a little ways.

Mr. GRIFFIN. North of Carrollton?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just north. Not very far. It couldn’t have been more than maybe a mile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this some sort of main intersection he let you off at?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes; the main entry for the Carrollton traffic on the north side of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at route 77 and the corner of some other road?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just one of the so-called farm roads of Texas. They have got a lot of the roads numbered farm road such and such.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a sign up there that pointed to a lake that this man had to turn to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any idea how large a lake it was? Was it a resort area?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that either, sir. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you do recall that the man had a cottage or something of that sort on the lake?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was going up to work on his cottage when he picked me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We talked at lunchtime about a man who called the Carousel during the week before the President was assassinated.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you tell us about these calls?

Mr. CRAFARD. Is that the one where I said he wouldn’t give his name or anything?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the one I had in mind.

Mr. CRAFARD. This gentleman would call maybe two or three times a day asking for Jack. He would ask where he could reach Jack. It sounded like it was pretty important that he reach Jack, and that he would never leave a number where Jack could call him back at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever give this man a number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time of the day or night this man would call?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be during the day. I can’t recall any specific time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man ever wake you up?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was always well after 9 o’clock, I know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it ever appear to be around lunch hour?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been anywhere from 9 o’clock to 6 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to call at regular times when he called?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe his voice in terms of age?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man call on Friday, November 22?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember whether he did or not. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on the morning of the 23d, Saturday the 23d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call the day before the President was assassinated?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called sometime in the afternoon of the 21st.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong about this man?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to Jack about him and I believe Andy was there when I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you say to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. That this guy called several times wanting to get a hold of him, would never leave his name or address or number or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had told me previously not to give his number to anyone unless I knew who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is his home number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or some other number he left where he could be reached at. He said not to worry about anybody that didn’t leave a phone number, they didn’t want to get in touch with him very bad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew who this man was who was calling?

Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he knew who the man was. He never said definitely that he did know who the man was. I think when I told him about it he just said forget it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never met this man, did you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; if I had met the man I would have known his voice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many home telephone numbers did Jack have?

Mr. CRAFARD. He only had one home number that I knew of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of Alexander?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would have been Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made, either because you didn’t tell that to the FBI or because you now upon reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that what you have said before. Let’s figure this will take at least 15 minutes and maybe longer.

TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max Phillips, Secret Service, were present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning, April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr. Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald’s voice. Mr. Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby’s employ. We have located a tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236.

I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard’s benefit as well as the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you know anything about Oswald’s background. There also may be a certain amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald’s.

Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin has said, we don’t want you to identify a voice simply because it is suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the basis of your recollection—of your recognition it would be of no value to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we expect you to tell us.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask?

Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the recording we will all listen to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record——

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think it will be necessary if we can get into the record its being at such a point in feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it can be located?

Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution.

(The tape recording commenced with the following):

“What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars,” et cetera, et cetera, et cetera——

(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.)

“Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a Communist?”

“Yes; I am a Marxist.

“What is the difference.

“Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia.”

(End of transcription.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely how this can be identified at a later point in time.

Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren’t they?

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way without injuring it?

Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the paper tabs were?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark with your initials?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also.

Mr. PHILLIPS. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that excerpt that we played?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who called Ruby that you referred to yesterday?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you were talking about?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has been referring to. Did he have an accent?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t have an accent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern speech patterns?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify.

I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5222.

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a photograph of anyone you have ever seen before?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but I don’t believe I was ever introduced to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223 which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E. Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that name on that sheet of paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one.

(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224-A for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask you if you will tell us what those are a picture of.

Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that—there is space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they were there and the phone numbers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message slips around, the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr. Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on those sheets of paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that are shown in that photograph?

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-B for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed throughout the day at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they purport to depict.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in his desk.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there—would you change your testimony any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least three small-sized notebooks that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7, and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby’s automobile.

I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the word “Alladin”. The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which might be 2 by 3 inches or 1½ by 3 inches.

Under the word “Alladin” there is a triangle with some writing which I am unable to read. Under the triangle, on the cover is written notebook No. 3164.

Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A. The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at these photographs in sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there?

(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would be the last name on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand—you are looking through a magnifying glass now at photograph number one, in the series of Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be Bonnie?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is—is that name familiar with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was—a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as a waitress at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B in the 5225 series.

Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you recognize any of the names on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn’t contain any names. It has something to do with taxes, admission tax.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby’s practice was while you worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth?

Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and count the tickets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know where he kept his records at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for such records?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax records in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy would work on that together and count the stubs.

But I don’t know where he kept record of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it——

Mr. CRAFARD. This was including the taxes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that $2 every night or was there a different charge on weekends?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars every night at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his charge for admission at the Vegas, if there was any?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was 75 cents or 85 cents, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph D?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is another State admission tax note. July, August, and September.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit D of Series 5225.

I want to show you E of Exhibit 5225. There are some names written down there.

Do you recognize those names?

Mr. CRAFARD. Billy Brook, I have heard his name mentioned, I believe he was a comedian; I am not sure.

There is Bobby Patterson. I have mentioned him as a band member for the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a notation under the name Bobby Patterson. Would you read that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right under the name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t make it out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the right of the name there is a 6 with two zeros, and right under the name Bobby Patterson it says, “and friends” and on the same line to the right of the words “and friends” and under the 600 it says “10” with two zeros.

Do you recognize—does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that handwriting that is shown there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, but I believe it is in Mr. Ruby’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the way Mr. Ruby made notations about money?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is his method of making notations with the 10 large and two zeros small on the upper portion of the line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that writing which makes you think that is Jack Ruby’s writing?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that it is fairly small. And there is the name Armstrong, the next name that I recognize, Andrew Armstrong. That is all there is on that page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph F and tell us if you recognize anything on that photograph. This is of Exhibit 5225.

Mr. CRAFARD. What I recognize is really small writing down almost to the bottom of the page, there are three lines right close together. The names and phone numbers, the name Ruth Shay, I have heard the name, I can’t recall exactly what her relation was, and the name Pauline again and then Tex De Lacy, I believe I had his name and phone number wrote down in my notebook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph G and tell us if you recognize any of the names there or any of the notations that are on there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that it is apparently for excise tax purposes for the Carousel Club, that is all I can say about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph H. Do you recognize any of the names or notations on that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. This shows two pages and one page is excise tax for Carousel Club. The other page has very little writing on it.

The name Joseph Rossi. I have heard Jack use the name Rossi quite a few times, but I don’t know what it was about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Joseph R-o-s-s-i?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph I in this series that we have been looking at and tell me if you recognize any of the names and notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Tom Palmer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You already testified about him.

Mr. CRAFARD. I already testified about Palmer and the other page has the words revenue from the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph J and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. There is one name on here, I believe I heard Jack mention, but I am not sure. This Rocky Robinson, I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection as to the context or connection that you may have heard that name used?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he introduced me to a man named Rocky, but I can’t recall the last name of the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph K and would you tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. None except for the insignia of KLIF Station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the Serv-U Pharmacy as being a business in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph L and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is a repetition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a duplicate photograph of the same picture that we showed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As 5225-K.

Would you look at M in this series of photographs and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the name Jeanine, Tammi, Lynn that I recognize, Brother Bear.

The name Norma, I believe is the same phone number as I give for Miss Norma Bennett, or Barnett.

I believe there is a Bob Litchfield, I believe that is the last name on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all names that you testified about previously?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I am not sure about that Litchfield.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Bertha Cheek that appears on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at N in this series of photographs and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph O in the series and address yourself to the same questions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any that is on here. There appears to be the word “taxes”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at P and tell us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the words Morning News, Carousel rent and something about the laminating company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do those—can you tell whose handwriting those notations are in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they are in Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack Ruby’s practice to make notes for himself of things he had to do any particular day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure whether he did or not. On one or two occasions I have saw him make notes of things he wanted to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at Exhibit Q and tell us if you recognize any of the names or notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mike Shore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified about him previously.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

There is Ed Pullman’s name on there. I have testified about him previously.

And Joe Williams, I believe from the band at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention back again to photograph P in this series, Exhibit 5225. There is a notation on here “baby bottle.” Do you have any idea what Jack Ruby would have had to do with any baby bottles?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Exhibit Q in this series, 5225, there is a notation “Goodwill Industries”. Did Jack—do you remember having anything to do with Goodwill Industries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Except the fact that most of my clothes were bought there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The name Dalton appears in connection with that.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spoke with Mr. Dalton in connection with trying to get the Goodwill Industries interested in the twist boards, their manufacture, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation after the word “Mike Shore” appears to be the word “blades”. Did Mike Shore have anything to do with the Wilkinson blades that Jack gave away?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of; not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation on here that appears to read “Stubbe Machine”, some sort of machine that looks like Stubby.

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I could say with that it might be in connection with the laminating machine that he was thinking about getting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell us about the laminating machine that he was thinking about getting.

Mr. CRAFARD. These free passes he was giving out he was having them laminated in plastic and he was thinking about getting a machine to do it himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he intending to purchase this machine?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These were free passes to the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the practice of giving passes away to the Carousel exist all the time you worked for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. He started that practice just after I went to work for him, giving them to people that he had business with, personal acquaintances, and different important businessmen from different areas of the country.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong or Jack so that you would be able to state whether he had given away passes prior to that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my—as far as I know, he had never given them away before this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Monte that appears on this photograph Q in the 5225 series?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a fellow by the name of Monte Timmons?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met the man. I don’t remember the name.

Excuse me 1 minute.

I believe that is a woman’s name. There was a woman by the name of Monte, had a phone call, had Ryan call her back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to show you photograph R and ask you if you recognize any of the names or notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Bill Petty’s name is on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a friend of Jack’s. I met him at the Carousel Club. Jack introduced me to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he live in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he did? How often did you meet him at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there two or three times while I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come during business hours or would he come in the afternoon, or morning, when there weren’t patrons there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe when I first met him was in the afternoon, but other than that it was during business hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the nature of Jack’s connection with Petty was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

There is the name Gladys. I spoke of her before.

And this Dr. Uhleviteh was Mrs. Grant’s doctor.

The name Oscar Newman seems familiar, but I don’t recollect what there was about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn’s name is on there.

There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last name doesn’t mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we have mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a result of having read that interview, are there any changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my wife’s maiden name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How should that be spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. It should be spelled with a “P” instead of an “O” there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it and date it where it appears in the interview?

I am going to mark this exhibit, “Washington, D. C., April 10, 1964. C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226,” and I am going to sign my name to the bottom of the first page.

(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have made this notation on the first page of what purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire, Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r-a-m-e-r, dictated November 29, 1963.

There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and continuing through the number 154 on the last page.

I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154.

You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June was the 22d of June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made of the other correction?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.”

After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. “almost every hour.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going to write something in there.

He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y” and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed out the words “almost every hour.”

Are there any other additions or corrections?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.

Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase “with the revolver”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the effect that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall him having the revolver with him.

Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper.

Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.

Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about another occasion?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he had it on one occasion with him in the club before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the revolver, and he just brought it in all together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it. I believe he had it at that time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and take it away from the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the club I was present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the money into the trunk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on those occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in the car, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for him and went back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions, did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph Paul with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk, and Jack drove off then alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he drove off alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number of times this would have been when he drove off alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the trunk of Jack’s automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun in his pocket as he was driving off?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the front seat of the car between us, right by my side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the car any place in the automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key to open the trunk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring with the key on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk unlocked that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and you remove the key and it automatically locks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?

Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the same space all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don’t know.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along this line?

Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions?

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his person.

Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the trunk of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a money bag on one occasion.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?

Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was in and put them all in a larger sack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his person, how did he have it?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report, are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and does this refresh your recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have refreshed my memory to some extent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report, are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?

Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after he came into the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t do it right away?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of closing the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions to Andy?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something about calling the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were going to be open?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a result of having read the interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial position of the club was my own opinion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had said?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was?

Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own, even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well, maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you said at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that you would change?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151 which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister was later in the afternoon.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or corrections or changes you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to the club is something I have established yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI, you weren’t sure whether he came back or called?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about that now?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the time——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time, approximate time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would you now alter your estimate of what time it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30 when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30 and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate?

Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock and she left while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8 o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going to the synagogue?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2 hours earlier than this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to get.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on the telephone.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently started to doze off, to go to sleep.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.

In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else. I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the Central Expressway.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.

Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey Oswald in a newspaper.”

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?

Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle shop?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign photographing that sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign before you got out to photograph it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we pulled over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long?

Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or corrections which you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I have made some notes myself.

On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226, the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander, the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until midnight.”

Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226, you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the club and work for room and board.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be approximately November 1, 1963?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November 1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the more accurate recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.

Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State Fair closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about 1 week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963, Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.”

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the fact that it was Earl Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the FBI?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who it was he was having trouble with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was having trouble with somebody?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent me to get the gun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of Howard?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149. Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November to bring the gun up to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say. It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the handle, but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone handle with dark brown spots on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over at the drug store?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.”

I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked with the FBI?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him making the statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along that line?

On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on it.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort, either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the business cards, something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was from?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one of the Dallas police departments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of the Justice Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often, if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You worked for the Tear Plating Company?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.

Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where he wanted to talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for Bob Craven and Deke Miles.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you to believe that they were homosexuals?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he was getting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his baldness?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other people kidded him about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s making any inquiry concerning a business partner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to open another club in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something, a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?

Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a bar called Ed’s Bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about any friends or acquaintances down there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel or the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed about the dogs he was going to send to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?

Mr. CRAFARD. The what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a Caribbean cruise?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227” and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.

(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when it was you wrote it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas before you wrote that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is the actual letter that you wrote?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I had remembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as it is here, but in a neater hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter and then rewrote it so it would be neater.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of that letter.

Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then we can refer to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not come into our possession in that way, you see.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy made for you if you would like to do that.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize those as photographs of anything?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army discharge, the front and back sides.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over to us on Wednesday?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you gave to us?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it over to us on Wednesday, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also produce on Wednesday a diary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which are marked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you turned over to us on Wednesday?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been photographed in those pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1. There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that notation?

Mr. CRAFARD. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church to which I belong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the only place in the Bible where the name can be found.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask about the notebook?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time, and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that you think would be of value to the Commission?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this deposition?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the matter that the Commission is investigating?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection therewith.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3 days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.

TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II

The testimony of Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II was taken at 1:35 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This will be the deposition of Mr. Wilbyrn Litchfield, II——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I sign, I sign “W. W. (Bob) II”,—does that need to be in there?

Mr. HUBERT. You can bring that out later when I ask you more about your name.

Mr. Litchfield, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Litchfield, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know or may know about the death of Oswald, or any other facts you may know about the general inquiry, or, about the possible connection, if any, of Jack Ruby with the death of Oswald or the death of President Kennedy.

I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter—written request made to you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t receive a letter to come?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Sorrels called me long distance.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I must advise you then that under the rules established by the Warren Commission, to govern the procedure of handling witnesses and so forth, every witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice that we wish to take his deposition, but those rules also provide that if a witness wishes to, he may waive that 3-day notice and just go ahead and testify now. So, I ask you now whether you are willing to waive the 3-day notice and proceed to testify now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. You are commonly known among your friends as Bobby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Bob.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand also that there are some of your legal documents that you always sign that way too?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I sign it “W. W. (Robert) Litchfield, II.”

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thirty.

Mr. HUBERT. Now where do you reside?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 654 West Cross Timbers, Houston, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Professional bowler and bowling instructor and I sell trophies for a bowling supply and bowling equipment office—balls, bags, shoes—etc.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since January of this year—approximately the middle of January.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. From July 1963, until January of 1964, I did not work. In July 1963, from March 1, 1962, until July 1963, I sold books and worked myself up to a regional manager’s position.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what company?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was with the Spencer International Press from March of 1962 until May of 1963 working in Dallas-Fort Worth—made district manager in San Jose, Calif., made regional manager February 1963, in Atlanta, Ga., and stayed until May of 1963, and my father’s death brought me back to Dallas. I left Spencer and went to work for Great Books of the Western World in June, made district manager in 2 weeks, and was terminated in July due to my past record.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “past record”?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have a criminal record when I was 19 years old, that’s 11 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the nature of it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I forged some hot checks and paid them off, but because I still had a bunch of them out—I had three charges in Fort Worth, eight in Dallas, the sum total was roughly $3,000. Restitution was made prior to the time I went to court. I went to court and received 3 years concurrently on each charge, 3 years on each charge in Fort Worth, 3 years on each charge in Dallas, and concurrently backdated at Fort Worth to August of 1952.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the Federal Court?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; State and county. I was in prison from February—well, I was arrested August 1952, pleaded guilty in Fort Worth in November 1952, pleaded guilty in Dallas in January 1953, went to Huntsville Prison in February 1953, made conditional pardon in December 1953—do you want all this?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and you were released then, I take it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. Pardon was reversed because I was married and I was voluntarily returned from Denver, Colo.; I just came back myself and turned myself in at Huntsville and I was released in April of 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. You were actually released from Huntsville in December 1953, under a conditional pardon?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; to Denver, Colo.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that it was with the permission of the State of Texas—Texas authorities?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on any terms of good conduct?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had to report each month.

Mr. HUBERT. In Denver?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right, and obtain a job, and I obtained one and my parole officer—I asked him should I tell them I’m on parole, and he said “No,” and three places I worked after I was there he called and asked how I was doing and identified himself, which caused my termination, and the last place I worked was a laundry. I was driving a truck and the man told him—do you want the words he used?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. “I don’t give a damn what he is doing, he is doing a good job.” And I have a better recommendation from him that he sent me when I came back to Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. You said something about turning yourself in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; my parole was revoked in July 1955.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The reason on my revokement is “unadjustment, unable to adjust.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was done in Texas or Colorado?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was done in Colorado—in Denver, and in August 1955, I left Denver, Colo., and drove home and said goodbye to Mother and Dad and drove down to Huntsville—in fact, my Dad drove down to Huntsville with me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you found out that the Colorado people had in effect recommended the revocation or revoked your parole, you knew that you would be eventually sought?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Or just sent back.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you just bypassed that and drove yourself into Huntsville?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I went to Austin first to the parole board and they said, “We have already reviewed your case and formulated an opinion. You are going back.” And I said, “Well, I’m not going back today. I’ll go back tomorrow,” and I went back the following day and turned myself in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. From August 1955 until April 1956, and I was discharged in April 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you discharged completely?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.

Mr. HUBERT. Or on conditions?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.

Mr. HUBERT. Completely?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No conditions whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. No conditions at all. Have you had any difficulty since then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Do you want the FBI fingerprint record for the time I have been picked up? I have been picked up six or seven times for investigation. I was picked up in Arizona for investigation, I was picked up in Florida for investigation. I got low on money—I wrote some hot checks in 1957 in Arlington, Va., and I paid them off and that was my latest.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not charged?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes: in Arlington, Va., in 1957, I got 6 months.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you serve any part of that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how much?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Five months—four months.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you were discharged from that without condition?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—without condition. That was in a county jail. I was a trustee—I was head cook.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you had any other convictions since then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since then—no, sir; one felony and one misdemeanor.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the two you have already told us about?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were 19 and the other one in 1957?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was charged—excuse me—I was picked up in January or February 1958 and returned to Arlington, Va., and I was released at Arlington, Va., in August 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. Since August 1958, you have had no trouble with the law?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Other than the fact that I—of being picked up for investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had no convictions?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. None.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged at all—formally, I mean, by actual indictment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—no indictments.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not under any charge right now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you are married; when were you married?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I got married in 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you support yourself between July 1963, and January 1964, when you were unemployed?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. My wife was working—my wife was working and I lived with her and my mother.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to get work?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that’s one reason I left Dallas. The person who is division manager of Great Books that terminated me, falsified—the reason I was terminated, he accused me of something I did not do, and I couldn’t prove it. It was my word against his. I couldn’t prove it, and in January I had a chance to go to Houston to work for Great Books and I went there and I tried to use the name of Robert Field—I had made man-of-the-month for the Great Books organization of the whole United States, and my picture was in their magazine called the Phenix. And the division manager in Houston recognized me and checked it out and then 2 weeks later I had requested from this gentleman here about three orders for me to be paid off. He had said they did not clear, that there was no money involved and 3 weeks later through my bank here in Dallas, Bank of Services and Trust, it just so happens that the man’s name is Charles Counter. He has his personal account there also, and I’ve got him on two counts of forgery right now. He took my paycheck, signed my name, and endorsed it over to him. I have the photostats from the bank and the photostats of the canceled checks that cleared the company.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the point I think you are making—that your opportunity to get with Great Books of the Western World in Houston was frustrated because of the fact that you had changed your name and they found out. That is, changed your name to the extent of leaving off the first syllable of your last name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, and the division manager there even talked to the president of the company and he said “No.” So, I went to work for this bowling supply which is owned by F. M. Curtis and Mel Livingston and I told them my past record, and Mr. Curtis is a highway patrolman, he has an interest in the supply business and he said, “I’ll give you a break,” and I’ve been doing real good since. He just gave me a break.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you are a professional bowler?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you competed?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in 1960 and 1961 I did, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I bowled in the All-American here in Dallas, the PBA tour in 1961, I bowled in the Santa Fe Open in 1961 and I bowled in the small—when I say “small” I mean $3,000 to $5,000 total first place, singles and doubles tournaments.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever won any prizes?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, I have won prizes but I have never won the first place—no.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the most that you have won?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. $750.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Ardmore, Okla.

Mr. HUBERT. Ardmore, Okla.?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the year—what tournament was it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It’s called the Ardmore Classic. I think they run it from about May to about August. It’s 8 games across 16 lanes, handicapped from 2 to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. You won $750—which was not first place, but what?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. About eighth place.

Mr. HUBERT. And you won it under your name W. W. Litchfield or Bob Litchfield?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas, I take it, in the last 6 months of 1963?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 302 West Clarendon. I also lived at the Drexel House Apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, me, I have forgotten the address—Henderson and Knox.

Mr. HUBERT. Who runs that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I’ve forgotten the lady’s name that runs that.

Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—she does not run it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Bertha Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what street she lives on?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do—Bertha Cheek lives on Swiss Avenue. She owns an apartment house on Swiss, but the Drexel House is on—right off the corner of Knox.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live at Bertha Cheek’s boarding house or apartment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Never?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I met her through a fellow at the bowling alley—I don’t remember his last name. He owns an electric company here in town, the one that has the lighting for all the fairgrounds, Bob Sands Electric Co.

Mr. HUBERT. And he operates the bowling alley?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; he was a bowler.

Mr. HUBERT. He was a bowler himself?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever visit at her place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, her apartment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, let’s see, spasmodically from September to October and November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words you met her——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September—I’m pretty sure it was, about the latter part of August or the first of September.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands at a bowling alley?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext that I might build it and run it for her.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that—she said she had seen me, but there was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in with her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife and had to have married her for any other further business to have been transacted.

Mr. HUBERT. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t she an older woman than you are a man?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is—she’s 30-something or 40-something.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn’t a verbal condition—it was a obvious condition. It was a situation that was arising, let’s say that.

Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this thing was to go forward?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife.

Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let’s say, from my past experience and knowledge of—worldly knowledge—I would assume this, that’s being kind of tactful.

Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you can’t point to any words that gave you that impression?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don’t care to be.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there quite a bit.

Mr. HUBERT. How do—how long do you suppose it is that you have known Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959—October, roughly.

Mr. HUBERT. Continuously?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say “hello” to him, see him whenever I would go in. It wasn’t a friendship relation that I would go out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said, “Hello, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one night I went down to see him—I had called and he said he would be there about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that’s when he told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and I wouldn’t attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an open or public club like the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s right—a private club.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the proper place for a private club?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right—any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain an open—let’s say a beer license because of my record with the city of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the liquor board and he said, “If you haven’t done anything in 3 to 5 years—no conviction or anything,” you can.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you were there with Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I had been in there. I had been in there one other time—I just went in to see what it was—I didn’t speak to anybody at all that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did speak to him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October—the second week or the third week, somewhere along in there—the exact date—no; I cannot.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time—or you said once before in your statement—at the time you were there there were some people taking pictures of the club?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows—you see, when I walked in Jack wasn’t there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his roommate—I don’t remember the man’s name, that I was to see Jack on business and he said he wasn’t there, and so I sat down and had some coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in, then he had to see two or three people before me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else around there that you were from California?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did so?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting there. He asked me where I was from and I said, “California and Phoenix”—is all I said. I didn’t think it was any of his business who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the doorman to whom you said that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—he was a little short fellow, I would say late forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind of a silver hairline—I don’t remember—whether he was kind of bald in the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of being of Jewish descent.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I didn’t pay that much attention to it—no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking a Seven-Up or a Sprite.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think—30 or 45 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman, and that’s when the doorman pointed me out—he walked over and said—just a moment—he had two or three other fellows to see him—I was sitting by the door—have you ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was the photographer who was there. I didn’t meet the photographer until after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him—some magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers—some kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he said all of them would sign them except one.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office.

Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers in his hand which you understood to be releases?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one was signed.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about buying the Vegas?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack that night?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television—I happened to be playing poker then.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to particularly the death of the President, about how long before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of October.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before the death of the President?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November—maybe 5 weeks or 6 weeks—it was about the middle of October.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did—in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a while ago, when I was playing poker—a bunch of fellows from the bowling alley—we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and the game continued all through the night—one of those $2 limit games and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow’s wife had carried the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, “Had shot him.” She had heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the next time I saw Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, “That guy looks familiar,” and a few of the fellows were around, and I don’t remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said, “I think I’ve seen that Oswald around somewhere,” and I made the statement, “Yes, I think I have seen him too,” and that was the extent of it. Nothing more was said.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went down—I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone and I told him, “I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the Carousel.” I said, “I don’t know, but I’m pretty darn sure I have.” And he made some calls and called me back and said the police department right now wants to talk to me, and he met me—I believe it was Monday, I’m pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15 or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the FBI?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents.

Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn’t seen him because when the man giving it asked me, “Have you definitely seen him,” and I said, “Yes,” and it showed that I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn’t tell me the results of the test, but Donald did—he didn’t tell me—he didn’t come right out and say, “No,” but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald’s picture out of a bunch of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man’s picture out. That doesn’t mean I have seen him—I told them that—I said, “Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out.”

Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were—that you observed that to?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question—whom did I say this to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the 24th?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday the 24th—I made it then, and—

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s when I made it. We was watching it on television—the rerun of it.

Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior to the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don’t remember who I made it to.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—the statement at the poker game—we were watching it on television and it showed everything there and someone says, “I think I’ve seen that fellow,” and I said, “Yes; I think I’ve seen him too.” That was the second time I had said it—before when his picture came out and everything, I said, “I think I have seen him,” but I don’t remember where I was when I said it.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And went on until——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30.

Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker game began?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was.

Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o’clock on Saturday?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. It was right after the assassination—they were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I was watching television, I don’t remember where I was, I said, “I think I’ve seen him.” And people sitting around me said, “He looks familiar,” and I made the statement, “I think I have seen him.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby’s place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, “I think I’ve seen him too,” I forgot who it was I said that to, but the guy said. “I think I have seen him or I think I know that guy,” and I just said, “Yes; I think I have seen him, too.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that—then that it might have been that you had seen him at Ruby’s place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember—everybody was sitting around and saying, “Where have you seen him?” Trying to think, and I thought about it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then when I went down to the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing poker with?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing poker with, whose house was it at, first?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can’t tell you that—I can tell you how to go there, but I don’t remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past the A. Harris shopping center—I don’t remember the name of the street, you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn left again—there were three cars of us and I followed. I don’t remember the name of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at the poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling] E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in—I didn’t know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his name. I know him when I see him—they are always at the bowling alley, he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black headed fellow and Max Lewis was there.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one more—I don’t remember who that was.

Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game—were they all there throughout the game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald, did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether they knew him or not and I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don’t remember who said that they knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that—you are getting mixed up. I said—when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, “I think I know him,” and I said, “I’m pretty sure I know Jack Ruby,” and I said, “What is that idiot doing now?” Or something like that, and I forgot that someone said, “That Oswald, I think I’ve seen him somewhere before,” and that’s when I said it.

Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, “I think I’ve seen him?”

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that you had seen somewhere before—and as also the man you had seen in Jack Ruby’s club the last time you were there?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day—not that I was associating necessarily it with Ruby—it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was trying to remember where I had seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack Green——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green.

Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the Sunday when you were playing poker, isn’t that right?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn’t positive then, no, where I had seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the fellow that I had seen in the Carousel.

There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made a heck of an impression on me—he was about twice my size, a real flashy dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type, and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the way he was dressed—he was dressed sloppy—in a sloppy shirt and kind of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, “What is this idiot doing up here?” You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint and you’ve got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a tourist, one of the two, and I just ran—I guess you would just say that it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly—you remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which was the last time you saw Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real sloppy and his hair wasn’t combed, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn’t talk to anybody while I was there other than Jack and I did meet that photographer—I don’t remember his name. Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back into the office—he did once while I was in there with Jack and he had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, “You’ve got to be a nut to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon.”

Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack’s office, did you see this man that you think might be Oswald in there still?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can’t see nothing—you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in the club part of it—the Carousel.

Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was Oswald had already seen Jack—I was the last one to see him—I don’t think there were more than two or three people left in the club—this big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting to see Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man who got to see Jack before you did?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t remember if he had something or not. He was in front of me and all I could see was his back at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is not more than—it’s one of these partition-type doors and it is not more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at—I was sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn’t help but see him when he walked along there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack’s office?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack’s office is back, in the back and you got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be Oswald did at that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television—and I thought it was the same one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as I gather it, as the week went on?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the same day, was it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later.

Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that it might well be the same man?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so much that you thought you should tell someone about it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do.

Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have told us about that.

Was there another man around there you heard had come from California?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said, that was sitting—there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn left—back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he saw Jack and he was still there when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now.

Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I came in the doorman said, “Well, there are two other people here and the photographer to see him ahead of you,” when I first came in, and he said, “He’s late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to.” And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from California and the photographer—were the three people in front of me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to the man you think was Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had.

Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side view, with three others.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald was the man you had seen in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn’t asked my impression at that time—all I was asked is, “Pick out Oswald,” and I said, “There he is, anybody walking in Dallas could do it.”

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if I really knew him or really had seen someone like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out because I had seen it on television so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn’t ask you to pick out Oswald’s picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification of Oswald.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well——

Mr. HUBERT. You had called Green, from what you tell me, to tell him that you thought that you had seen a man who looked like Oswald at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t that the reason why they were asking you to pick out the man that you had seen at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would assume—I don’t know. I wouldn’t know their reasoning behind it. I would assume this would be it, but when I picked him out, I told them at the time, I made the statement, “Anybody in Dallas could pick him out—he was on the TV so much.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell them that the man I now know is Oswald from the films and that I am now picking him out is also the man that I saw at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You told them that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you believe that to be true?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I thought it was until they convinced me I was wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about it now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said, “It sure as heck looked like him,” that’s all I can say now. Of course, I don’t want to say I’m definitely positive it is—I said, “It’s a heck of a close resemblance.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s your testimony right now, that as far as the man you saw and have described—sloppy clothes, white jacket—T-shirt type—go in and see Ruby before you on an occasion approximately 5 weeks before the assassination of the President, that that man and the Oswald photographs later shown you, you think that they bore a close resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they do—they bear a resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been speaking about at one time than you are now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that showed when they asked me—was it definitely him, it didn’t show up right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, “It sure as heck looks like him,” and when the police were questioning me, they said, “Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?”

I said, “It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him.” And they come back, “Are you positive, are you positive?” And then the fact that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, “You know, if you say you are positive and it wasn’t him,” it’s a Federal charge, and I said, “Well, I’m not that positive.”

Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, “If you give false information as to an exact statement—” not an opinion, but if I say I’m positive, that’s a statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were positive, but that——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that it looked like him, but I’m just as fallible as anybody else. I could be 100 percent wrong. I said, “In my mind, the man that I saw looked just like him,” but then again, I can’t say 100 percent.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything, and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and when he walked by me; no, I can’t be 100 percent pure positive.

Mr. HUBERT. But you knew all of that the first time you told it to Green?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, “It sure does look like him—the man I saw there sure does look like Oswald,” those are my words.

Mr. HUBERT. But, what has caused you to weaken in your opinion it was Oswald, as you tell it to me, is the fact that you got the impression that if you gave a positive identification and it proved to be false, that it would be a Federal offense, is that correct?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they said, giving false information to the FBI, and I’m not 100 percent pure positive. I say, “It bears a close resemblance,” and this is all I can say.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did tell them?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; that’s the statement I signed.

Now, the big heavy-set fellow that I met, I shook hands with, made an impression on me. I was as close to him as I am to you now, or closer. I shook hands with him, and I saw him more than for a fleeting moment.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you a picture and ask you if you can see any resemblance between the picture I am going to show you and the man you thought might be Oswald—this picture I am going to show you, the man is dressed up, but if you can use your imagination to see if there is any resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. To see if there is any resemblance?

Mr. HUBERT. To see if there is any resemblance in the face, at least, and the hair, and so forth?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; Oswald’s hair isn’t that thick in the center.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about Oswald, I’m talking about the man you saw at the club you thought might be Oswald.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; there is no resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the picture that I have shown to the witness has been identified as Exhibit 5302 in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. Do you know Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had difficulties with him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Once.

Mr. HUBERT. In what regard?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He sent two men to the place that I was working and had them pick me up for investigation without a warrant, bodily remove me out of my office, and held me on robbery by firearms, which I couldn’t have a writ of habeas corpus that night, or something, I had to go before a judge or something, and I didn’t get out until the next morning, and he didn’t even appear at the hearing.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That was in—I think it was March or April of 1961, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him since?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, when I had to go down to the police station, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the next morning?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; when I had to go down for questioning. No, he didn’t even show up at the hearing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jess Willard Lynch [spelling] J-e-s-s W-i-l-l-a-r-d L-y-n-c-h?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t think so—the name doesn’t sound familiar. I know a Lynch, but Jess Willard Lynch?

Mr. HUBERT. What Lynch do you know?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I know a Donald Lynch from school.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. How long has it been since you have seen him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. High school.

Mr. HUBERT. I see—that is to say about 10 or 12 years ago?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Roughly—that name doesn’t sound familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Earlene Roberts?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Earlene Roberts—I don’t remember whether I know her or not. Closely, I don’t—I could have dated her or seen her, but closely, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. I’ll put it this way, when I mention the name of Earlene Roberts, do you associate it with anybody you know?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I used to go out quite a bit in my life, and I went with a number of people, and I was thinking that I dated one time a girl named Earlene, but I don’t remember her last name—that’s why I stopped and hesitated.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the person whose image came to your mind when I mentioned Earlene Roberts?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that Earlene Roberts, that I am talking about, is the sister of Bertha Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. If she’s her sister, I was trying to think if I ever met Bertha’s sister. I talked to her on the phone once. Bertha told me she had two sisters, I believe, wait a minute—Earlene Roberts is the one that lives in California, I believe, I believe it is, and Bertha went out to see her, maybe, when Bertha went out to California 4 or 5 days on some business, and then I was helping her remodel the home over there and painting then, and I think I had to call her and I think Earlene Roberts was the person I called in California, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You called the person in California for Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. To talk to Bertha when she was out there.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Maybe October—maybe November.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after you were negotiating with her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, but I don’t remember the exact date. I knew that name sounded real familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Bill DeMar, or have you heard of him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. You will have to associate it with something for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was an MC at Jack’s Carousel Club.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I don’t know that man. I saw him—he did a song or something while I was there, but I don’t know him, if that’s who it is—I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the story in the Press after Ruby shot Oswald that he said that he had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I never knew of that—I never knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by anybody of the Commission’s staff other than myself?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; the only people I have talked to is the Dallas Police Force and to two FBI agents, and I didn’t have any knowledge that you would talk to me until yesterday. They called long distance for me and he called me this morning—I bowl in a scratch league on Thursday night and he told me I had to be here at room 301 at 3 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we pushed it up a little bit for you.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, Mr. Sorrels called me this morning and asked me if I could make it earlier, and I said “I will leave on the flight 11:45 and I am booked definite at 5:15 going back and on a standby on this one here.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can make the 5:15 now, because you are through right now.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. I will get to see my wife for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ALICE REAVES NICHOLS

The testimony of Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols is present, and before we began anything, she walked into the room and she asked me if it would be possible to withhold her name from the press. I told her I would check. I have talked with Mr. Hubert of our office, to find out what the policy has been in the past, and he assured me that in the past we have, on the request of witnesses, not released the name to the press. I stated previously that all we have ever released is the name. We have never discussed and will not discuss with the press any testimony. However, we can’t give you any assurance that they won’t find out you were here. For example, there are newspaper reporters all over this building, and I don’t recognize them and perhaps you will, and perhaps they might recognize you or try to find out, if they don’t recognize you, who you are. Unfortunately, anything they can learn about what goes on is something that they want to print, so we can’t assure you that the name won’t go out, but we can assure you it won’t get out from anything we do. I am sorry we can’t give you any more protection than that.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I appreciate that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a special consultant to the General Counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission has been set up under a couple of governmental acts, one of which is an Executive order issued by President Johnson on November 30, 1963, and another one from the joint resolution of Congress. The effect of both of these acts has been to establish a Commission with a staff which has power to subpena witnesses and take testimony and conduct an investigation and prescribe various rules and procedures, and we are operating under these rules of procedure.

I might explain that under the rules of the Commission I have been specifically designated to come here and talk to you and take your deposition. Now the purpose of this deposition is to inquire into all of the facts and evaluate the facts and report back to President Johnson on the facts that have to do with the death of President Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. In your particular case, Mrs. Nichols, you have known Jack Ruby for many years, and you have been good enough to tell the FBI at some length what you knew about him. We want now to see if there is any more that can be added by this type of questioning. But we are also interested, I might add, in anything you might know that might have any significance to the whole investigation we are conducting.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you got a letter from the Commission asking you to appear?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. I had a telephone call first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it wasn’t Mr. Sorrels. I believe the man said his name was Howell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Howlett?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive your letter?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I received a letter last Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I might also say, I don’t want to scare you by saying this, because we say it to everybody, that you are entitled under the rules of the Commission to appear here with an attorney if you so desire, and it is not unusual that people do that. But I see that you don’t have an attorney here, and I take it that you don’t desire one.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t think it was necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Most people do feel that way. It is an expense, for one thing.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I know several attorneys here, but I didn’t think it was necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t think anything will come up in the course of your deposition that should make you feel you want an attorney. But I always want to make clear that at any time throughout your deposition you are free to stop the thing.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We try to be pretty nice, and I don’t think we will have too many difficulties. Let me ask you then if you have any questions about the deposition that is to be taken, before I ask you to raise your hand and be sworn? Anything that you think you would want to know?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t know of anything.

Mrs. GRIFFIN. All right, would you raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Alice Reaves Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Mrs. Nichols?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your maiden name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. My maiden name was Small: Alice Reaves Small.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now?

Mrs. NICHOLS. 8707 Redondo.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask embarrassing questions of women, but could you tell us when you were born?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. February the 1st, 1915.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I lived away from Dallas. I was born and raised here, but I lived away about 7 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1937 to about 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Southland Life Insurance Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am a secretary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you work for anyone in particular?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am secretary to the vice president and treasurer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. John E. Mangrum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to ask you if you will hand me those two documents that you have there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to mark them and ask you some questions in connections with them. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5355.” This document consists of a number of pages starting with the No. 283, at the bottom, going through page 291.

It purports to be a copy of a report of an interview that you had with two FBI Agents, Mr. Albert Sayres and Mr. Paul Scott on November 25, 1963. I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to read that over before the deposition started?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is there anything in there that you feel is not accurate, an accurate report of what you told the FBI on that day? I am not referring to whether or not you, after thinking about it, that you make some changes, but whether you noticed anything in there that does not accurately reflect what you said at that time, and if so, whether you want to make some changes in it?

Mrs. NICHOLS. There are a few things in here that I notice that are not exactly right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you if you would refer to the page on which the mistaken material appears, and if you would read the material that is mistaken and then we will talk about it.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I may have said it as it is here, but I know that I said that I didn’t think that Joe Bonds had an interest in the Vegas Club. But after thinking it over, I believe that he had for a short time an interest with Jack Ruby. But I believe that at this time that I talked with the FBI men, I had forgotten about that. But since thinking it over——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you pick out of there what page that appears on?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Let me put on my glasses. [Looks through document.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I can find it for you.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I read it in there. It is in there some place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be on page 284. Let me read the language to you, and you can tell me if that is what you had reference to.

The paragraph at the top of the page which reads: “During the time she was associated with Jack Ruby, Ruby was friendly with one Joe Bond when he operated the club on West Commerce Street in Dallas, Texas. She did not believe that Ruby and Bond were ever associated in any business.”

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is it. Yes; that’s right, I believe for a short time that Joe Bond had an interest in the Vegas Club with Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now has something happened since this interview, the original interview that you had with the FBI that made you remember that or think that Joe did have some business interest in the Vegas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have just thought over the questions that they asked me, and I recall that I believe that he did. I have been thinking it over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did have?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack Ruby told me himself that Joe Bond had an interest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at here is, is there anything in particular that made you remember this?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nothing in particular.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in this interview of November 25, that you think ought to be changed or corrected?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you what is marked for the purpose of identification as Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5356. This document consists of two pages, and it purports to be a copy of an interview that you had with another FBI Agent, Mr. Albert Sayres. I guess you talked with Sayers on the 25th, also, but this interview was on January 18, 1964. Have you had a chance to read that over?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you would make in that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to go back, and I am going to ask you some questions that are, some of which are biographical and some have to do with Jack Ruby, and some helter-skelter. When did your husband die?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was divorced in 1947, but he didn’t die until 1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?

Mrs. NICHOLS. While we were married, he was with Commercial Standard Insurance Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after your divorce?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t talk to him very often. He went into the insurance adjusting business, his own business for a while. Then I understand at the time of his death he was in the jewelry business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Nichols’ Garage here in town. Is that any relationship to your husband?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it is not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe also that the building that Jack had the Carousel Club in is owned by the Nichols’ family or by the Nichols’ estate.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have heard that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that any relationship to your husband?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; there is no relationship.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I first saw him in a grocery store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was close to his Silver Spur nightclub, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. South Ervay Street?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I was in a grocery store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in that general area?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. My mother lived close by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you never met him before?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come up and talk to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. I had my daughter with me, and later on when I was waiting for the bus to go home, he saw me standing on the corner and he came over and introduced himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was the early part of 1949. I don’t know the exact date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think in your earlier interview with Agent Sayres on the 25th, you indicated that you thought you had met him in about 1948. Have you had a chance to think since then so that your feeling now is that it was 1949?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I started going with him the latter part of 1949, and I don’t remember the exact date. It was several months after I first saw him before I ever went with him. I would say it was 1948, winter of 1948 and 1949, somewhere in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything by which you place it? You mean that would have been late 1948, or early 1949?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular way that you place it at that period? Anything in your life that is significant that would place it in late 1948?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember whether the weather was cold or what I had on; whether I was wearing a coat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the particular year. Anything happen during the year 1948 that sticks out in your mind so that you could date your meeting Ruby in relationship to that event?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember exactly when I first met him, first saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is your daughter?

Mrs. NICHOLS. My daughter is 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if it were 1948, she would have been about 9 years old?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you started to date Jack, how often did you see Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It’s been so long ago. I think at first I probably saw him about once a week, and then later on in the year or so, I would say about twice a week, was about the most I ever saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of man that had any family interests or seemed to show any interest in settling down?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, in settling down?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; in getting married and raising a family and leading a conventional kind of married life?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He talked about it some for a period of time. Not all the time I was going with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Jack in terms of his impressions and what he would look forward to and the kind of things he liked?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack had a lot of drive. He was ambitious. He was always looking for some way to make money, some extra way to make money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in particular that attracted you to Jack? Made Jack attractive to you? Any particular quality about him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was very nice to me. He always treated me with respect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, was he the kind of person that would unburden himself to you with his personal problems and background?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he talked to me about some of his problems. I don’t know that he talked to me about all of them, but he did discuss some of his problems with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of problems did he seem to have?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business problems. When he lost the Bob Wills Ranch House, he discussed that with me. He was very upset about that. He lost a lot of money in that deal. He had to go back to Chicago at that time, and he discussed his business deals with me—when he bought the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t seem to have any particular anxieties that he would discuss with you? No personal problems; family problems?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, when his two brothers split up their partnership in Chicago, he talked about that some to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that particular problem?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He went back to Chicago that time to try to help settle their differences.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if this was Earl and Sam?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the differences between the two?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know whether it was—well, I guess it was just a financial, trying to work out. Sam sold out to Earl, and I think it was just trying to work out a financial settlement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you why Sam sold out to Earl? Why Sam left the business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was just because they weren’t getting along together, the two brothers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you why they weren’t getting along?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw Jack then on a once-a-week or twice-a-week basis until about what, 1956 or 1957?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; and then after that I only saw him about once a week. I saw him about once a week until the latter part of 1959, about the latter part of November 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you date that in 1959? What makes your memory remember it as the latter part of 1959 as opposed to 1958 or 1960?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, the reason why I remember that is, I think it was Christmastime, and we weren’t going together at Christmastime. I remember thinking that I wouldn’t buy him a Christmas present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he own the Carousel Club at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he hadn’t taken over the Carousel Club at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about any trips he took?

Mrs. NICHOLS. The only trips that I knew he took were a few trips to Chicago, and I knew that he went to Havana one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he go to Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Only once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was in 1959. It was September of 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you——

Mrs. NICHOLS. The first part of September.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember it as that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it seemed to me like it was around Labor Day, as I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long Jack stayed in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not exactly; but I would say he was there from a week to 10 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he went to Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was a pleasure trip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him off at the airport?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who he was going to visit in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. The only person he told me he was going to see in Havana was a man by the name of McWillie. I don’t know if Mr. Mac was his first name or whether McWillie was his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever met McWillie?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you met him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him a few times. Jack had introduced me to him. I had seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what McWillie was doing in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was managing the Tropicana Night Club, so I understood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this something that you actually remember yourself, or something you know from having read about these things in the newspaper?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I remember him telling me that he was at the Tropicana.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether he had any business interests with McWillie?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t indicate that he had any business interests.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you at any other time about Cuba or any interests he might have in Cuba?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that Jack talked to you about all of his enterprises; business activities?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I knew of nothing that he didn’t discuss with me. I don’t know of any activities that he didn’t discuss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you feel Jack was the kind of person who might do things that he wouldn’t discuss with people?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Discuss with people?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with other people who weren’t involved in that particular activity?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. He always talked freely to me, I thought. I never did feel that he—Jack was a big talker. He talks a lot; quite an extrovert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to break up with Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a gradual thing. We had no quarrel. We just quit. He quit calling me. We just quit going together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that Jack returned to Chicago from time to time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was about August 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it in August?

Mrs. NICHOLS. As I recall, he lost Bob Wills Ranch House about April or May 1952, and he stayed here several months, and it was around August, I believe, when he returned to Chicago. And he stayed about 6 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he lost it, did he go into bankruptcy? Go through some court proceedings or just sell it to somebody at a loss?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he took bankruptcy or not. I don’t remember. I don’t think he got anything. I don’t believe he sold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he forced out of it by anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I was under the impression that he just didn’t have the money to continue operating. He just had to leave it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was this Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a western type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Restaurant?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Striptease shows?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first go into the striptease business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was not going with Jack when he got into the striptease business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur a strip joint?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe he did for a time have a strip, a few girls doing the strip at the Silver Spur, but that was a very short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this while you were dating him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; but not—that was just for a few months. Maybe not even that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start to employ them there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. How did he what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he start to employ them there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business was bad and he was just trying to find some way to build his business up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have entertainment at the Ranch House, Bob Wills Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Have floor shows?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he ever had a floor show. I never did see a floor show there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a band?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He had a band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he sold liquor?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; well, they sold beer and set-ups.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was on Corinth and Industrial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he operate that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I can’t remember just when he started that. It wasn’t but a few months. Probably, I would say about 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur in operation when the Ranch House was going?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when he sold the Ranch House, what did he do with the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He continued to operate both of them. Wait, I beg your pardon. When he sold which one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. When he sold the Ranch House?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what happened to the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He still had the Silver Spur when he sold the Ranch House, but he sold the Silver Spur.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After he sold the Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To whom did he sell the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. A man by the name of Martin Gimbel or Gimpel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he sold the Ranch House did he sell the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was very soon. I would say within—doesn’t seem to me like it—seems like it was about a month after he sold the Ranch House.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know—had you met Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Martin Gimpel before he bought the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I met Martin Gimpel soon after I met Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin living in Dallas at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Martin continue to live in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall how long. I don’t recall how long he lived in Dallas. Several years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin married?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I really don’t know whether he was married.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man was Mr. Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t know him too well. I talked to him a few times, but he seemed very nice to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how he earned his living before he bought the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I know that before, he had punchboards for a while, before it became illegal in Texas, and that is the only business that I know of that he had. I was under the impression that he had a little money, that he had saved a little money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever sell punchboards in Texas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I think you indicated to the FBI that Gimpel is dead?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear that he died?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. Jack Ruby called me and told me that he had died, but I don’t know how long ago that was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he die here in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I believe he said he died in Oklahoma.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you have had a chance to sit here, Mrs. Nichols, do you recall any better as to when it was that Gimpel died?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It is since I started going with Jack Ruby, and it was several years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you still going with Jack Ruby at the time he died?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack Ruby, how often did Jack see Mr. Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was usually, he helped Jack around the nightclub, the Silver Spur and the Vegas Club, and I used to see him when we would go in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of help would he give?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just would sort of manage it, see that everything was going all right. I think I had seen him use the cash register. Just anything that was needed to be done around there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did Jack pay him for what he did?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you mentioned in your interview with the FBI that Jack was friendly with a man named Rocky Robinson. Do you remember that name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see Rocky Robinson but about twice, and then it was when we would be some place and he would be; we would run into him. I never did see him with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you indicated to the Bureau that you thought that Jack sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have also testified that you thought he sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, now, he sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel first, right after he sold or right after he lost the Bob Wills Ranch House. He sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel, and he went back to Chicago and stayed 6 weeks, and then he came back and took over the Silver Spur again from Martin Gimpel, and then it was later on he sold the club to Rocky Robinson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Why did Jack come back from Chicago?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he liked Dallas. He wanted to stay here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I presume when he left, did he intend to stay in Chicago permanently?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I think that he did plan to stay in Chicago permanently when he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened in Chicago that made him change his mind after he had been there for 6 weeks?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was because Martin Gimpel didn’t want to run the Silver Spur and Jack had a chance to buy it back, and he came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that Jack actually sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he did. I don’t know what the consideration was. He didn’t tell me how much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Rocky Robinson still in town?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Rocky been a friend of Jack’s before he sold the Silver Spur to Mr. Robinson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he become a friend of Jack’s after Jack sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I never did see Rocky Robinson but on about two occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you told the FBI that you had met Jack’s father?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet Mr. Rubinstein?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack picked me up after I left the office and took me by to meet his father one evening. That was the only time I ever saw his father.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the father happen to be in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he and one of Jack’s sisters were visiting Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack sold the Silver Spur, did he also at the time he sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson, own the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In late 1958 and on up to the time you stopped seeing him in 1959 or 1960, did Jack own the Vegas Club?

Did Jack own any club in addition to the Vegas Club during this 1-year period prior to the time you stopped seeing Jack? Did he operate any clubs besides the Vegas Club in that year?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In that year before you stopped seeing him, did Jack ever discuss selling the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember him ever discussing selling the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jack was making a profit off the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose during the time that you were dating Jack, you met most of his friends?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack introduced me to a lot of people while I was going with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a man by the name of Dewey Groom?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I knew him slightly. I met him. He was a bandleader at Jack’s Silver Spur for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack closed the Silver Spur, did Jack continue to see him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him after that. I don’t know whether Jack did or not. Jack did see most of the nightclubs; he went around to most of the clubs and he probably did see Dewey Groom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ralph Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, when did Jack first become friendly with Ralph Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember. Let’s see; I don’t remember whether—I just can’t remember exactly when I first knew Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Ralph Paul when you first started dating Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I believe I went with him for several years before I ever heard of Ralph Paul or met him. I just don’t remember when I met Ralph Paul. I was trying to think whether I remembered him before Jack went back to Chicago. I believe I met him before he went back to Chicago in 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any business connections with Jack at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack had mentioned that Ralph Paul had loaned him money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it, as you understand it, that Ralph first loaned Jack money?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Paul ever have an interest in the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he had mentioned Gordon McLendon to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, how often did Jack contact Mr. Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know how often he contacted him. I would see him around the club quite frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that Mr. Paul, during the period you were dating Jack, was one of the more frequent visitors to the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the lending of money by Paul to Jack, do you know of any other business relationship that Ralph Paul and Jack Ruby had with each other?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, did you know George Senator?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I never did know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack Ruby was a friend of Gordon McLendon?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he mentioned Gordon McLendon to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear Jack mention Gordon McLendon?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I would say several years before we quit going together, before 1959, maybe 3 or 4 years. I can’t remember when he first mentioned him to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate to you about his acquaintanceship with Mr. McLendon?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that he mentioned that Gordon McLendon had given him some advertising time on his radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you understand it was free advertising time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say whether it was. I don’t recall him saying whether he paid for it or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know McLendon any way other than a business way?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he went out with him socially or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. McLendon ever visit the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Jack ever mention the name of a man Stanley Kaufman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know Mr. Kaufman when you began dating him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I never did hear him mention him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of Jack’s acquaintanceship with Mr. Kaufman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was Jack’s lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a social friend of his?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. Well, I don’t know whether he ever went to his home or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Kaufman visit the Vegas Club from time to time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember ever seeing him in the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tom Howard? Did Jack ever mention Tom Howard as an acquaintance?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He had mentioned Tom Howard, but I had never seen—as far as I know, they were not friends. I never did see them together.

I never did see Tom Howard in the club. But I have worked for Tom Howard when I first started working for attorneys, and I knew that I had known Tom Howard because I worked for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for Mr. Howard?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Right after I got my divorce in 1947, for a short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then before you went to work for your present employer?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been employed continuously with your present employer?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Since; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Mr. Howard?

Mrs. NICHOLS. About 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention Ed Pullman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Frank Fisher?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Alex Gruber?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike Shore?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Buddy Heard?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during the time that you were dating Jack, other than the band that he would hire for his club, did Jack have business contacts with the entertainment world?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Business contacts?

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the entertainment world?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether I understand. You mean personal, individual, or bands?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; was it a regular practice of his to hire entertainers other than the band to play at the Vegas Club? Singers and comedians or dancers?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t hire any. He had a little colored boy one time who used to put on a floor show out at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Little Daddy Nelson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the only entertainer that you knew of that Jack was connected with while you knew him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you indicated to the FBI that Mr. Ruby was very attached to his mother.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was devoted to his mother. He told me how—he had remarked how much her death had hurt him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether he was more or less devoted to his mother than to his father?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He seemed to be devoted to his father, too. He seemed to be quite interested in his father’s welfare.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention to you in connection with his mother that his mother had been a source of many problems to the family?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he had mentioned that she had been in an institution; that she had a mental breakdown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude about that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say much about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any hostility toward her on account of it?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you how he happened to change his name from Rubenstein to Ruby?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He had already changed his name when I first knew him, and he never did tell me how he happened to do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know that Jack had been associated with his brother Earl and his brother Sam in a business in Chicago?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you how he happened to leave that business and come to Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he came down here because his sister had a nightclub here and she was having difficulty because business was not going. He came down here to see if he couldn’t help her with the nightclub business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate anything about his relationship with Sam and Earl in Earl Products?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was a partner, I understood, in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate that he was dissatisfied in any way with that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about how close he was or friendly he was with his brothers?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I got the impression that he was close to his brothers, his whole family. He seemed to be close to the whole family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was very upset when his brothers Earl and Sam broke up their partnership, and he went up there to try to help settle their differences, and he just—I always got the impression that he was close to his family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you mentioned a man by the name of Ned Weisbrod.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a person whom you thought was friendly with Jack, close to him in one way or another. When did you first meet Mr. Weisbrod?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe that I met him soon after I met Jack. I would say probably in 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they continue, Weisbrod, to be friendly with Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had not seen him in—when I first knew Jack, he had the Silver Spur, and I used to see Ned in there.

And after he took over the Vegas, I used to see him out there until about—I think it was about the last 2 or 3 years I had not seen Ned in there. And the same thing with this Sam; that they used to be together a lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Lassen?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I had not seen either one of them in the Vegas Club for, I would say, 2 years anyway before 1959, when we stopped going together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate why they stopped coming around?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any sort of quarrel that Jack had with them?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack seem to have any business relationship with Weisbrod and Lassen?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were Weisbrod and Lassen more friendly with Jack than Ralph Paul? Did you see them around more often than you saw Ralph Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also mention Adrian High as a person who was friendly with Jack. And I believe, if my understanding is correct, that High, Weisbrod, Lassen, and Ruby were sort of mutual friends?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether Adrian was a friend of Ned and Sam or not. I have not seen Adrian High in, oh, since about, I would say about 1956. I had not seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Weisbrod and Lassen are still in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you knew they were in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t seen them since—the only place I ever saw them was at the Vegas Club, and it’s been several years before I quit going with Jack that I had seen them in there. At least 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of person that, if he had problems with somebody or a dispute with somebody, that he would continue to talk about it for some time after it occurred?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t talk to me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know some people, when they have a problem, they just have to talk and talk about it until it seems to get out of their system. Did Jack seem to be that kind of a person?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t talk to me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see Jack getting into any fights with anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him hit anyone. I know that he had had trouble in the club. I would hear about it. But I never did see him. I have seen him put people out of the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear of his fighting with somebody socially, in a social quarrel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only time you know of his fighting or hitting somebody was in connection with his acting as a bouncer for the club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him, but I heard of it. I know that he had a finger—he was putting a man out of his club and a man bit his finger and he had to have it amputated, but I was not there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, how much money was he accustomed to carrying with him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did ask him and he never did tell me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack carry a gun with him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have seen him with a gun when he would have his moneybag for deposit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his practice? You have seen him take money out of the club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what was his practice? Would he have the gun at the club, or where would he keep the gun?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he had it at the club or whether he carried it in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him carry it in his pocket?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did ask him if he had a gun in his pocket, and he never did tell me. I never did see him take it out of his pocket. When we would go by the club, he would pick up the money and I would be sitting at a table, and I don’t know when he got the gun, whether he got it out of his pocket or whether he kept it at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you see the gun; on the table or where?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I just saw it with the moneybag, and we would walk out to the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would carry it in his moneybag?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember ever seeing it in the moneybag, but he used to put it on the seat with the moneybag.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he ever lock the money up in the trunk of his car?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what did he use to do with his money after he took it out of the club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I thought he put it in a night depository. He would take me home first, and I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated to the FBI that Jack was a gambler, liked to gamble?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him gamble, but he told me that he—several times that he had gone back to the Artists Club and played cards after he took me home. I never did see Jack gamble. He never talked to me about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who the owner was of the Artists Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who owned it. A man by the name of Harris was managing it. I think it was a musicians’ union.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling would they have at the Artists Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see them gambling there, but I imagine it was cards, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a——

Mrs. NICHOLS. They served food there, and we have gone up there late to get something to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a back room of some sort where they gambled?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did see them gambling there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Jack gambled with there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say he would go there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he only mentioned that to me for a short period of time. I would say 3 or 4 months that he mentioned to me that he would go up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Johnny Ross?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you described him as a gambler?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack told me that he was a gambler.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack ever gambled with him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack never did mention.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling did Johnny Ross do?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any business association with Johnny Ross?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Jack called you on the day the President was killed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had it been before then that you had last seen Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him on the street one time in the spring of 1963 I didn’t talk to him. He was driving the car and I was walking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the time that you saw him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. And before that, it had been over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you talked to him on the telephone?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he had not called me in over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you told Mr. Sayres on the 18th of January that you remembered that Jack had called you at about 2 o’clock on the 22d. How did you happen to remember that at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He called me sometime between 1 and 2, while I was out for lunch and left his number for me to call him. And I called him back as soon after 2, about 10 minutes after 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that Jack had called?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I go to lunch from 1 to 2 all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first time that you talked with Mr. Sayres, you didn’t remember apparently that Jack had called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you remember at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he didn’t ask me about it and I didn’t think about the importance of it until this investigation or for the defense attorney asked me about that, if Jack had called me on that day, and I remembered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this investigator or one of Jack’s lawyers suggest that you ought to call the FBI and let them know about this?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I got to thinking about it myself and I thought I wanted to keep the record straight. I wanted to let the FBI know it, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the investigator indicate to you that you might testify for Jack at the trial?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, no; he didn’t say. He didn’t tell me whether he thought they would use me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea that you might?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, after I talked, after the investigator, contacted me, I was afraid that I might be called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever called?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t attach the importance to the telephone call at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the trial?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you willing to testify?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t want to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your reaction when you got this telephone call from Jack shortly after the President had been shot?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just, I was surprised when he—after the President had been shot?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that Jack had called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I was surprised. We hadn’t been seeing each other and I didn’t expect to ever hear from him again, and I was—he seemed to be upset about the President’s assassination. I think everyone else was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think Jack called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know why he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever question his attorney about that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t talked to—never did talk to his attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked with Jack since then?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or any members of his family?

Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law has called me twice since that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be his sister-in-law?

Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law, Sam’s wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever ask her why Jack called you that day?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask her why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever indicate to you why he called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with Jack, when you called him back at around about 2:15 or whenever it was, did you indicate to Jack that you were surprised to hear from him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t say anything to him about that, being surprised.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI reports here, Mr. Sayres’ report in his interview of January 18, that Ruby was apparently calling to tell you what a terrible thing he thought it was that President Kennedy had been assassinated. Was there some question as to what Ruby really, why he really was calling?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just surprised to hear from him. I don’t know why he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the exact words, but the only thing, he just talked about what a terrible thing the assassination was. It was a very short, conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular thing he said?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or words that he used?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember the words, the exact words that he used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to tell me if he used the word, “terrible,” there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he used the word, “terrible,” or not. But generally it was just, he was just upset about the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you at all about the effect that the assassination would have on his business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything particularly about President Kennedy?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was talking about the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any, did he say anything about what effect it would have on the city of Dallas, the assassination?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall him saying that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you have a regular lunch hour?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular lunch hour?

Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1 to 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time of the second telephone call that Jack made to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. In the evening?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it wasn’t late in the evening, and I had finished dinner and had my dishes washed and I was reading the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time do you usually eat dinner?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat about 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody living with you at home?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I live alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long does it usually take you to eat dinner?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat very slow in the evening. I usually listen to music and I usually spend about 30 minutes, I would say. I take my time and drink coffee and I sit at the table.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you when he called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just was talking again about the assassination, and he told me at that time that he was going to the synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about the assassination on the second occasion?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, what a terrible thing it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, weren’t you again surprised that he should call you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask him why he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate your surprise to him in any way?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t indicate it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he would like to see you sometime?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No, he never; I can’t recall him asking how I had been or anything personal. He didn’t say anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you how you felt about the assassination?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I told him I thought it was terrible, too, and I was quite upset about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you for any advice of any sort?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t think of any reason why Jack should have called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time that he called you, did you have any indication of where he was calling from?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have no idea where he was calling from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any voices in the background?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Television set on?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember hearing any noise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you how soon he was going to the synagogue?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t tell me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you which synagogue he was going to?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I assumed it was Shearith Israel because that is where he went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, did Jack have any dogs?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He got his dog shortly before we stopped going together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But up until then, he had never owned a dog?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to buy the dog?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I think the first dog was given to him by someone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who gave it to him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No, I don’t know whether he told me or not. Or whether it was anyone that I know. I just remembered where he got the dog, and it was killed. It was run over a short while after he got it, so he got another one right after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dog was given to him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a dachshund.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the next dog that he got also a dachshund?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up until the time that his dog was given to him, had he expressed any interests in dogs?

Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister had a little dog that he—I don’t know whether he—I believe it seemed like he had taken care of it some for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva Grant?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; she had a dog.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Abe Kleinman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I believe he was a CPA or a bookkeeper. I believe he kept Jack’s books, for a period of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Floyd Turman, do you know him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any police officers with whom Jack was friendly?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have seen police officers out there in the club, but I never knew one in particular.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the women that he was friendly with besides yourself?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who else he dated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about women that he saw in a business connection? Did you see any women in the business? Did he see any women in a business connection?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I don’t know of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that we haven’t talked about here today that you haven’t already told the FBI, that you think would be of importance to the Commission?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t think of anything that would be of importance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if, as time passes here, and if anything does come to your attention which you think might be helpful to us, if you would contact somebody in the Commission or contact the FBI or the Secret Service and let them know?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I will be glad to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We also ask you, other than the interviews that Mr. Sayres had with you, have you been interviewed by any member of this staff?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Of this staff?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to having your deposition taken here, did you and I have any interview?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have any more questions to ask you.

I want to thank you for coming here and taking all this time to do it, and I realize that you are a working woman and it is an inconvenience to you.

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is quite all right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was quite nice of you to spend all of this time.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am glad to help in any way I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CARL PATTERSON

The testimony of Robert Carl Patterson was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am on the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel’s office of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive Order from President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also by virtue of a Joint Resolution from Congress, No. 137.

As a result of these two official Acts, the Commission has been given authority to put forth its own rules and regulations to accomplish the purpose of the investigation which we have been asked to conduct, and under these regulations I have been given authority to come here and take your deposition, Mr. Patterson.

I want to explain to you a little bit about what the purpose of the investigation is. The Commission has been asked to investigate, evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here this particular day, Mr. Patterson, because we understand that you have had some acquaintanceship with Jack Ruby. However, we are interested in anything that you might be able to tell about the assassination of the President or anything that you might think might be relevant to that.

We have a certain set of procedures that we follow in conducting these depositions and in asking people to come here. I presume you got a letter, did you not, from the Commission?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Signed by Mr. Rankin?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I think it was. I have it in my pocket. That’s right. (Referring to letter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the letter?

Mr. PATTERSON. Saturday, it was I got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now also under the rules of the Commission I might explain to you that anybody who desires to appear here with an attorney has the right to do so, and we encourage people to do it. I notice that you are not here with an attorney, and I take it it is because you don’t have any desire to have one. However, if for any reason you think that you would want an attorney, or as this interview progresses you think you should want to be represented by an attorney, please feel free to tell me about it and we will postpone matters and continue the deposition at a later date. I presume by the fact that you are here without an attorney, that you don’t desire to have anybody represent you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I don’t think I would need an attorney, because I don’t think—I don’t know it was that important, so far as I was concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t see any reason why you should have one either, but I want to tell you this so that you understand that you do have a right to have an attorney, and I hope that if for any reason that you think you want to be represented, feel free to state that.

Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me about the deposition that is about to begin before I ask you to be sworn? Feel free to ask anything that comes to your mind, because I realize this is an unusual experience for everybody who appears here.

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t believe so other than how long?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long will it take? I don’t think it will take very long. I want to ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PATTERSON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name?

Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Carl Patterson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. 902 East Waco Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. PATTERSON. March 13, 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you presently employed?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. PATTERSON. The Beachcomber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place is that?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is a night club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do at the Beachcomber?

Mr. PATTERSON. Entertain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind?

Mr. PATTERSON. Musician and singer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What instruments do you play?

Mr. PATTERSON. My major instrument is the guitar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you sing any particular kind of songs?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I do mostly rhythm and blues and a few classicals.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been an entertainer?

Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 5 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a high school graduate?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I’m in college.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to college?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are attending college right now?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you attending college?

Mr. PATTERSON. Arlington State.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the Dallas area?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are you majoring in?

Mr. PATTERSON. Music.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were interviewed sometime in December by an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Do you recall that interview?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time you indicated that you had worked on some occasions for Eva Grant, Ruby’s sister?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first work for Eva Grant?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know the exact date. In fact, I can’t even recall the month, but it was, I guess you could say, the last of the summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This summer, 1963, was the first time?

Mr. PATTERSON. 1963; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the first time you worked for Eva Grant would have been in the summer of 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately. As far as I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you receive for a one night engagement with Mrs. Grant?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the pay varied from—I just played a one hour show, say, about 10 or 15 minutes with a saxophone player. That is myself and my band, and I would say the average pay I received was $8 for these 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sometimes receive more and sometimes receive less?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the least you received?

Mr. PATTERSON. $4.00.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the most that you received?

Mr. PATTERSON. $10.00.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you play there?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always appear with your saxophone player?

Mr. PATTERSON. Eighty percent of the time I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they pay the saxophone player separately?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they sometimes pay you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would pay the saxophone player?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are nodding yes?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever consult with Jack Ruby or with Eva Grant about playing at Jack’s Carousel Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. It was my understanding that he had different type music there than what I played.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you known to the Rubys; by what name?

Mr. PATTERSON. Mrs. Grant called me Bobby Patterson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to talk with Jack Ruby?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I talked with him several times about playing. He wanted me to start playing in the Vegas, and we talked about salary and hours and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I am going to hand you what I have marked Exhibit 5357, which is a photograph of a page out of that notebook, and I have marked this photograph, Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5357, Robert C. Patterson, and I signed my name to it. Previously this same photograph has been marked as Crafard Exhibit No. 5225, and as Armstrong Exhibit No. 5305-E.

I want to hand you this and ask you to look at the notations on that notebook. If you can’t read them, indicate to me that you can’t and I will try to read them for you.

Mr. PATTERSON. I see Billy Brook. I can’t make out the second line. Bobby Patterson, six something, special friend, and then a ten and two. No, and quotation marks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to keep your voice up so she can hear you.

Mr. PATTERSON. Three ... I can’t make out that word—I can’t make out the next word, and 2409 Maple. LA 6-7568 for Robert Patterson—no, Robert is all.

Three—now I can’t make out the next—six eight three seven four nine thousand eight, oh six, fifty by a hundred and ninety-two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those notations shown in that photograph as having anything to do with you?

Mr. PATTERSON. It would be my guess that these were some notations of where he paid somebody, somebody paid us for playing one night, because I think this Billy Brook is a singer. I remember Billy Brook that used to sing over at the Vegas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sing there while you also entertained there?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, a few times he was there. None of this other, I don’t know what that could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If that notation Bobby Patterson and friends had to do with you, who would the friend be?

Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Simpson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the saxophone player?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a rate that was paid, six dollars to you and the additional four dollars to Simpson?

Mr. PATTERSON. It could have been. We usually received the same pay. If I got $5, he usually received $5. I don’t ever recall making any more than he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is as much as you can remember about that?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anything come to your attention in connection with Jack Ruby or in connection with any of the work you have done for Jack or his sister, Mrs. Grant, that you think would be of value to the Commission?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, I can’t recall anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you actually talk with Jack Ruby?

Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t pinpoint it to a certain number of times, but I can approximate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us your best estimate?

Mr. PATTERSON. You mean on the phone and in person?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PATTERSON. About 15 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these times would have been in person?

Mr. PATTERSON. Not 10 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the times that you met him in person at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him besides at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. He came to my house one night to talk to my mother about me playing for him, and him taking over as my manager and promoting a record for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. Some time in the first of November, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of record was he interested in promoting?

Mr. PATTERSON. Just a rock ’n roll record that he wanted to promote for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you already cut the record?

Mr. PATTERSON. I already record for another company and he said he had some connections with a better record company that he could, you know, he wanted me to record some new records.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you record for?

Mr. PATTERSON. Future.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that office located?

Mr. PATTERSON. Arkansas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Arkansas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to go up to Arkansas to cut the record?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, we cut here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many records have you cut for Future?

Mr. PATTERSON. Two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Jack about promoting a particular song?

Mr. PATTERSON. Not a particular song.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But about promoting you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. PATTERSON. He said he had connections with Reprise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. R-e-p-r-i-s-e?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. It is pronounced Reprise, with which Frank Sinatra has something to do with, and never did say what Frank Sinatra had to do with it, but he said he knew some people in this line that he would have no trouble getting a record promoted and distributed nationally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I told him if he could get this done, fine, I would consider recording for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make an effort to have that recording done?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. He was trying to get me to play in the Vegas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Vegas or the Carousel?

Mr. PATTERSON. In the Vegas. And I never did think too much about the recording, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time he talked to you about the recording, had you ever played at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what do you mean he was trying to get you to play there?

Mr. PATTERSON. The band he had was leaving, quitting, had quit already, I would say, and they had been there a long time, for a number of years, and they quit. And he wanted my band to start playing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you feel about playing at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I didn’t really want to because the pay was too low and the hours were too long. But he propositioned me to cut the number of hours because I was going to college, and the other saxophone player was too going to college, and the other two guys worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So did you finally agree to play at the Vegas with your band?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you talked to him about playing at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. About—I don’t know the exact—it was one Sunday evening, I would say, approximately two weeks before the incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the assassination of the President?

Mr. PATTERSON. Could have been a week and a half or a week anyway in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time Jack didn’t have a band playing at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have a band?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. He had hired one band and one band had quit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He hired another one?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the plan was that he would have had your band replace the one that was already playing there?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack Ruby any place except at your house and the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he came out to hear us. We were playing at SMU college and he came out to hear the band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. This was the same Sunday that I talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you talked to him?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I had an interview on the radio one night at the Circle Bowl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?

Mr. PATTERSON. Circle Bowl; bowling alley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station?

Mr. PATTERSON. KBOX.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed there?

Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night I met Jack Ruby. I was playing at the Vegas. I did the show, and Mrs. Grant called me over and introduced me to him, and he said, “I like the way you play. Do you want to talk on the radio?” So I said, “Sure.” So he said, “Follow me,” and me and Robert Simpson followed him over to the Circle Bowl, and Jack West was doing his night program and he interviewed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night that I met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the summer sometime, 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, I didn’t know him, but I would say a month or month and a half at the most prior to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he called or spoke to you either in person or on the telephone about 15 times in that month or month and a half?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I mean in the same day and stuff like that, you know, on different occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on any of these occasions that you saw him in person, did he have anybody else with him?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. The night I met him, he had somebody else with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. I met him at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have with him?

Mr. PATTERSON. He introduced me to a guy that was entertaining at the Carousel, Billy DeMar. I think that is the last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him that night?

Mr. PATTERSON. A little short guy. I don’t know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a Negro boy or a white one?

Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was just—he was an old man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old a man would you say he was?

Mr. PATTERSON. I would say he was in his late forties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall was he?

Mr. PATTERSON. About my size, about 5’2”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his build, heavy, medium or thin man?

Mr. PATTERSON. For his size, he was kind of fat. Stomach went like that [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he balding, or did he have all of his hair?

Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was balding.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a business associate of Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t tell. I didn’t ride in the same car with him or nothing. I just saw him with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This other fellow didn’t do any of the talking?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, we were talking about promoting the record and he said, “Jack will put you over, don’t worry.”

He says, “If he likes you, he likes you, and if he don’t like you, he don’t like you.” I remember him saying that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see this man again?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any other people with Jack?

Mr. PATTERSON. His roommate, George. I don’t remember his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet George?

Mr. PATTERSON. At their apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go up to Jack’s apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it was the same night that he came over to SMU to listen at us, and he said, “What are you fixing to do?”

I said, “I am going home.” It was on a Sunday after we got through playing and he said, “Why don’t you come by and let’s discuss, you know, the pay that I would pay you and the hours and so forth.” So he didn’t live too far from my house, and we stopped by there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You and your trumpet player?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, just me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack—was Senator with Jack at SMU?

Mr. PATTERSON. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George, was he with Jack?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you got to Jack’s apartment, the roommate was there, George?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?

Mr. PATTERSON. The dog, and another woman and a man came in. I had seen her over to the club working. I guess she was related to him in some way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had seen her at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been Mrs. Grant?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the night did this man and woman come in?

Mr. PATTERSON. I guess it was around 8 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the apartment that night?

Mr. PATTERSON. About 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything unusual about the apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. Just an apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the only time you ever saw George?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination of the President was it that you went to Jack’s apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 2 weeks or 2½, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your recollection that this was a Sunday?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any record at home from which you could determine when that was? Any record of being paid at SMU which would indicate when it was?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The man who came into the apartment that Sunday night with the woman, how old a man did he appear to be?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t recall, but I would say he was in his middle thirties or maybe 40. I didn’t pay that much attention, because I don’t think I ever seen him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a Jewish man?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know. I don’t think I ever heard him talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall do you recall him being?

Mr. PATTERSON. Maybe 5’ 11”, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his build, fat, medium, thin?

Mr. PATTERSON. He was fairly thin, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the only occasion that you were ever in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him any other places?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of the people who worked at the Carousel Club outside of Billy DeMar?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you could tell us about Jack Ruby, about your meetings with him or acquaintanceship with him?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, like I say, I hadn’t known him but about a month and a half. Maybe a month. It might have been 3 weeks prior to this incident, and I didn’t know him that well, but he was trying to get us to play over there, because a band he had had for so long had left, and the one he had wasn’t doing as good a job as he felt they should, and having a lot of trouble. Actually, my business dealings with Jack were with Mrs. Grant, and he came in one night while I was performing and she called me over and introduced me to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I want to hand you a copy of a report that the FBI made after the interview with you on December 16, 1963. It is a copy of an interview report made by Special Agent James E. Garris, FBI, and pertains to an interview with you on the 16th of December 1963.

I don’t know if you had a chance to read it, but, if you would, read it over and tell me if there are any additions or corrections that you would make to that other than what you have already told me here today, and also, if you would, indicate to me if that is a true and accurate report of the interview that you had with Mr. Garris? [Document marked Patterson Exhibit No. 5358.]

Mr. PATTERSON. This part where it says intermittently for several years, I wouldn’t say it was several years. More like a year, maybe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated to me that the first time you ever worked for Eva Grant was back in the summer of 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That wouldn’t even be a year. Is there something that makes you think that you worked for or knew her even before then?

Mr. PATTERSON. Sure. All the bands, more or less. I mean, knew of the place, you know, because I had a friend, Joe Johnson was playing there, and occasionally we would stop by and sit in, play a few numbers, so therefore——

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. PATTERSON. I guess that is what I meant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would qualify the statement which reads as follows:

“He has worked for Eva Grant, Jack Ruby’s sister, at the Vegas Club in Dallas intermittently for several years as a guitar player and singer.”

You would state instead that for maybe a year before this interview on December 16, you had visited the Vegas Club occasionally to see your friend Joe Johnson, and that on those occasions you had sat in with Joe Johnson’s band?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that you never actually began to work there for money until the summer of 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I couldn’t pinpoint it whether it was the summer, beginning or end of the summer, really. I don’t actually recall. I would have to go back and get—she put a few advertisements in the paper with my name, and I can go back and look at them. I don’t remember, I played so many places.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you belong to any musicians’ union?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I did once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of any union when you were playing for Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any agent at the time you were playing for Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you said already that you don’t have anything more that you could add, and I take it that there is nothing more that you would change in this interview report, is that correct? Or would you make some more changes in the interview report other than what we have already discussed today?

Mr. PATTERSON. About Jack Ruby?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, or about anything that appears in this interview report. You hesitate like you think there are some other things you could tell us. Let me encourage you to come forward and tell us everything that you do know.

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, this is all I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I would like to ask if you in the future, or if you should remember anything or anything should come to your attention which could be of any assistance to the Commission, please get in touch with the Commission or, if it would probably be easier to get in touch with the FBI or Secret Service, let me know what it is.

I appreciate your coming out here this afternoon and speaking with us. You have had to wait around a long time to get here, and I certainly want to apologize for inconveniencing you and tell you again that we appreciate very much the time you have given us, and the help you have provided here, and it’s been very nice meeting you.

Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL

The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 8:03 p.m., on April 15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.

Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission to investigate the death of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by the President’s Commission, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by Congress in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. Paul. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts related to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his associates, and his business and social friends and so forth. Now, I believe you have appeared here as a result of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission, advising that we would be here and requesting that you appear. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days ago?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Paul, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mr. Paul?

Mr. PAUL. I will be 65 this December.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. PAUL. Right now I live with some friends—I’m building a house in Arlington, 1602 Browning Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. The letter of request to appear was addressed to the correct place?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; both places.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are the owner or manager, and that is one of the things we want to clarify, of the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. I am the owner.

Mr. HUBERT. You are the owner?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. That is Bappo [spelling] B-a-p-p-o.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Bappo, Inc., isn’t it?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is a closely held corporation, I take it?

Mr. PAUL. Well——

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, do you own all the stock?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, the corporation owns the business and you manage the business?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other occupation at the present time?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. In Dallas—itself?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put it in the Dallas area, first. I mean—Dallas-Fort Worth area.

Mr. PAUL. Okay—I came in December 1947.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live prior to that time?

Mr. PAUL. New York, New York City.

Mr. HUBERT. In New York City?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think that you originally are an immigrant, is that correct?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That information, I believe is information in the statement you have given.

Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what it was that caused you to come to Texas from New York?

Mr. PAUL. I was connected with some show people and they came down here and told me how great Texas was, and I came down, and in fact I came down and leased the club, leased the Sky Club at first, and we stayed there a month and then we bought it.

Mr. HUBERT. Leased which one?

Mr. PAUL. The Sky Club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1947?

Mr. PAUL. That’s actually in 1948, I mean, I came to Dallas 2 days before New Years or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Two days before New Years in 1947, so it’s practically 1948?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connections here when you came?

Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t know anybody here.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we”, you mean you and your wife?

Mr. PAUL. No—that entertainer and her husband brought me down here.

Mr. HUBERT. What were their names?

Mr. PAUL. Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont—it’s also in there.

Mr. HUBERT. They were husband and wife?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And they had been here before?

Mr. PAUL. They had been here before.

Mr. HUBERT. And they interested you in coming into this area?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave all your business and social connections in New York?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you married?

Mr. PAUL. No; not at that time I came down from New York.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been married since?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not married at all?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never have been married?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And is your wife dead or are you divorced from her?

Mr. PAUL. We got divorced in 1931.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never remarried?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you supposed to supply capital to the venture?

Mr. PAUL. What venture?

Mr. HUBERT. With Joe Bonds?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was in a very short period after arriving here you got interested in a place called the Sky Club?

Mr. PAUL. No; they interested me to come down here—they interested me to come down here and rent the Sky Club from a man called Satterwhite, and after we stayed there a month, he decided to sell it to us and then is when we bought it.

Mr. HUBERT. Who put up the capital?

Mr. PAUL. We put up some capital—the rest of it was by notes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the corporation formed then?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it was owned by you and Bonds?

Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds.

Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that venture last?

Mr. PAUL. I sold out my interest in May of 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it lasted a very short period of time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to?

Mr. PAUL. I sold it to a man from Miami that came up here looking for business—I can’t think of his name—Rosenheim.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?

Mr. PAUL. I think it’s some place in this—that is, his first name is.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, we will get to that. What sort of place was the Sky Club—what was it?

Mr. PAUL. A nightclub.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?

Mr. PAUL. On the Fort Worth Cutoff. I think the address was six something Fort Worth Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. What venture did you go into after that?

Mr. PAUL. I opened up a bar in downtown Dallas called the Blue Bonnet, underneath the Blue Bonnet Hotel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you rent the premises there and operate the bar yourself?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any partners in that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you maintain that occupation?

Mr. PAUL. I maintained it close to 5 years. I opened it in November and sold it 5 years later in September.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would have opened it in November 1948?

Mr. PAUL. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would have sold it?

Mr. PAUL. In September 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. 1953?

Mr. PAUL. No; 1953—that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do after 1953?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t do nothing for several months and then I and Chris Semos opened up the Miramar Restaurant on Fort Worth Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was a partnership too?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that was a partnership.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, this Chris Semos, did he put up the money?

Mr. PAUL. We both put up some money and the rest was notes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the name of that?

Mr. PAUL. Miramar Restaurant.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a restaurant?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And nightclub, was it?

Mr. PAUL. No, just a restaurant and drive-in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?

Mr. PAUL. Close to 3 years—about 3 years less 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you operated that until, say, July of——

Mr. PAUL. No; I operated that until February.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?

Mr. PAUL. Of 1957.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell that, then?

Mr. PAUL. I sold it to Chris Semos.

Mr. HUBERT. You sold the whole thing to him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take a note from him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in your income tax returns for some later years you show interest received from Chris Semos of about $250 a month; is that interest on that note?

Mr. PAUL. No; it’s $125 a month for seven years, that includes $100 a month payments and $25 interest.

Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon—that’s what I meant to say.

Mr. PAUL. That’s $250 a year—and one time it was $250 because he wouldn’t pay 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. The interest you show as received, I said $250 a month, I meant to say it was $250 a year.

Mr. PAUL. That’s right, $250 altogether, and one year he didn’t pay full so it was only $250.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that loan paid out now?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in February of 1957 you didn’t have any business connections?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Sir?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir. I went into partners with Jack Ruby’s brother, Sam, and in a little ice cream place. We opened up April 25, 1957, and closed it—we didn’t close, we gave the lease away so they wouldn’t hold us responsible for the lease, and we lost some money because the fixtures that we bought was more.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?

Mr. PAUL. May, June, and July.

Mr. HUBERT. Just a few months?

Mr. PAUL. We saw it didn’t make, so there was no use in wasting time.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your next business venture then?

Mr. PAUL. Next, I didn’t go in business, I was helping Jack Ruby in the Vegas Club from August until the following year—May.

Mr. HUBERT. August of what year?

Mr. PAUL. August 1957, to May 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with Ruby, you say, at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I just was helping him.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on a salary?

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