Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 3 of 6)

Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 3 of 6)

Mr. PAUL. Well, no—it wasn’t really a salary. I helped him out on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any compensation at all?

Mr. PAUL. Well, the only compensation I received he owed me some money, he paid me back.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps at that point then we should go back to—so that you may tell us when you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. PAUL. Like I said over here, it was one of these improvised meetings that you meet somebody that comes over to you and introduces himself.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it, about; do you know?

Mr. PAUL. 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1958?

Mr. PAUL. I mean, in 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1948?

Mr. PAUL. Those years fly back so fast, 1948. That’s the year I was up to the Sky Club yet.

Mr. HUBERT. And he simply came over and introduced himself to you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he says, “I’m Jack Ruby. I own the Silver Spur.” I don’t think it was known as the Silver Spur, but I can’t recall the name it was known then. It keeps on running in my mind that it wasn’t the Silver Spur—it was another name, but I can’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it the Singapore?

Mr. PAUL. That’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. It was the Singapore?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he told you he was the owner of the Singapore?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that became the Silver Spur.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business connections with Ruby at all until he got to owe you some money?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I’ll tell you the whole thing—the whole story.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that’s best—that’s the best way to do it.

Mr. PAUL. Well, one day he came in with a friend of his—he’s now deceased.

Mr. HUBERT. If you could fix the time and place—as you go—it would be helpful, and I know it’s a long time ago but perhaps we will have to take an approximation.

Mr. PAUL. Maybe it was 1949 or 1950 or 1951, I can’t remember those years, and he asked me for a loan.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the friend’s name was? The one that he came in with?

Mr. PAUL. He’s now deceased, but it was Marty Gimpel.

Mr. HUBERT. And the two of them came to you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And wanted to borrow some money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was it they wanted to borrow?

Mr. PAUL. $2,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you lend it to them?

Mr. PAUL. He said to me, “I’ve got a show, I want to buy the Bob Wills Ranch House”—did you get this one in there any place—he said, “I’ve got to show it,” and he says, “All I want to do is show them that I’ve got the money and I’ll give it back to you the following day.” Well, not that I knew the guy so much, but you know, you can’t turn people down like that if he wants to pay me the next day, so I loaned him $2,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a note?

Mr. PAUL. No; he was going to pay me back the next day. Well, the next day didn’t come. Subsequently he roped me in for $3,700.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean—more?

Mr. PAUL. With the $2,000—$3,700 altogether.

Mr. HUBERT. Making $1,700 more?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, why don’t you just tell us in your own words just how this relationship developed and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. It’s silly but true, and when I tell it, it’s really funny. The next time he comes he says, “They didn’t think it enough money to show for the place, I’ve got to show them $3,000,” so I gave him another $1,000.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a few days after?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—that’s 2 days afterwards. Instead of the next day coming—he came 2 days and he says, “This is it positively—I’ve just got to show them the money.” Well, he didn’t come around that Saturday, and subsequently he came around and he said he had to use the money to get into the business there. What do you do with a person—you’re just stuck. You can’t do nothing until then—you can’t do nothing with them. That went on for a couple of months, and now, listen to this: One day, on a Friday—that’s how the other $700 is going to come in—on a Friday he comes in and he says, “If I don’t get the money to buy beer, I’ve got to close it down.” Well, you’ve got to think—you’re already stuck with $3,000—that’s how the payments came when I was with him at the Vegas Club—you understand me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; so, you gave him another $700 on that occasion?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when he sold the Silver Spur at that time, he gave me money back, because I have the note on the Silver Spur. He gave me the note on the Silver Spur for the money, so in order to release the note, he gave me $1,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s a different transaction from the $3,700; is it?

Mr. PAUL. That’s from the $3,700. You see, I took a note afterwards, when he went bankrupt—when he went with the Bob Wills Ranch House, he gave me a note on the Silver Spur.

Mr. HUBERT. For what amount?

Mr. PAUL. For the $3,700.

Mr. HUBERT. Up to that time you didn’t have a note, but when the Ranch House folded——

Mr. PAUL. Folded—it didn’t fold, his partner bought him out—the two of them—he couldn’t—he didn’t get any money out of it anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, he went into the Silver Spur?

Mr. PAUL. No; he was in the Silver Spur before.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in the Silver Spur already?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in both?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he was in both.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you got him to give you a note to show the $3,700?

Mr. PAUL. But when he sold it, I think he sold it for $2,200, or $2,700, but he had to pay so many people that he gave me a thousand.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he sold the Silver Spur——

Mr. PAUL. I had to give him the note—he couldn’t sell it without the note.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the note secured in any way?

Mr. PAUL. No; it was registered.

Mr. HUBERT. A registered note, which made it a lien against the Silver Spur?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that if he was going to sell it to anybody he had to clear the note, he had to get some sort of cancellation as to registration and that required the note?

Mr. PAUL. I gave him the note.

Mr. HUBERT. And you gave him the note for $1,000.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That left $2,700 still owing?

Mr. PAUL. Not exactly $2,700—he paid me in little sums like 50 or 100—I think it left about $2,200.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time?

Mr. PAUL. At that time.

Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, you had no more note?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when I helped him at the club, he gave me $50 or $25 or anything he could get ahold of to give me, so that eventually the note went down to $1,200, and that’s what it remained on that deal.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from August 1957 to May 1958, you helped out at the Vegas, which he was then operating?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Spur had gone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then the indebtedness got reduced to about $1,200 you think as of May 1958?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any further story to that note, or is that money still owing?

Mr. PAUL. That money is still owing.

Mr. HUBERT. That has never been paid?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have no note for it?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after May 1958, what did you do?

Mr. PAUL. I bought into the Bull Pen.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was with Semos?

Mr. PAUL. No, no; that was with Bowman.

Mr. HUBERT. With Bowman?

Mr. PAUL. Bowman had a partner, and he got a notice from the building department—what is it, VA or something like that—they wanted him—as an examiner, so he sold out to me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, originally you and Bowman were in as a partnership alone, or was it a corporation when it started?

Mr. PAUL. No, no; when I bought this man out it was a stepfather then—when I bought him out—Bowman and I were partners—50-50 partners. Then we made it a corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the year of the incorporation?

Mr. PAUL. I think it was 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. 1960, but you had operated prior to that as a 50-50 partnership with Bowman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you became a corporation and when did you buy out Bowman completely so that you are now full owner?

Mr. PAUL. January 1, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after you left this association with Ruby in May of 1958, did you have any further business or social relationship with him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends.

Mr. HUBERT. You had been friends actually for that time almost 10 years, hadn’t you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends from the time he loaned the money from me, let’s put it that way. We had to be friends.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him quite often?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?

Mr. PAUL. Well, the nights I had off, you see, we used to work 1 day and 1 night with my partners. If I worked nights, the next day he worked nights, so we swung it around, so the nights I had off, either I would go to the Vegas Club—at that time he had the Vegas Club alone, and after that we would go out to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. Was his sister, Eva Grant, with the Vegas at that time? At the very beginning?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did she come in, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. When he opened up—not the Carousel, but the first one—which one was that?

Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. What year was that—about?

Mr. PAUL. 1959 or 1960—I think it was 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you known her before?

Mr. PAUL. Just a casual acquaintance, you know, I mean—I must have seen her once or twice.

Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t live in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. No; I think she was out on the road some place selling merchandise.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further business relations with Sam Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. No; just that ice cream place.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all you ever had with him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you ever have any financial interest in the Vegas?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t now and never have had any?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any, or have you ever had any financial interest in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Actually—no—not interest at that time, but when I loaned him money on the Sovereign Club, that was after he went out with his partner. He and his partner couldn’t get along—Slayton.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Joe Slayton?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They had started the Sovereign Club and they couldn’t get along and Jack needed some money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You loaned him some money, then, did you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I think I loaned him for 3 months’ rent or 4 months’ rent—$550 a month, because that was the time he couldn’t pay the rent.

Mr. HUBERT. You loaned that in cash?

Mr. PAUL. No; I give him a check—not in cash.

Mr. HUBERT. You gave him a check?

Mr. PAUL. A check—I gave him a check.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any evidence of indebtedness?

Mr. PAUL. No; the following year he gave me 50 percent of the club, telling me that if the thing don’t go, the fixtures and everything should represent my money.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no note about it?

Mr. PAUL. No; he gave it to me—I knew about it.

Mr. HUBERT. No; but did he give you a note?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of written agreement?

Mr. PAUL. It was a stock receipt.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he gave you a stock certificate?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how many shares it was for?

Mr. PAUL. Five hundred.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that half of the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Half of the place.

Mr. HUBERT. And he endorsed that over to you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, yes; I think he did—he and Slayton—I think did.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the consideration, that is to say, what money did you pay for that?

Mr. PAUL. To open up the Carousel——

Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the Sovereign.

Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign was no consideration—just the stock deal, that if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for the fixtures.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4 months’ rent at $550, whatever that is?

Mr. PAUL. About $2,200.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that indebtedness was the consideration for the stock?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Or, was the stock merely to secure it?

Mr. PAUL. That’s the security of that money—the stock was the security of the money.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he was entitled to the stock?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one time; he thought he would be able to sell the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. PAUL. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him the stock certificates; you know—you deal with people in money, that’s true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a lot of things.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were always friends.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be from 1958 on?

Mr. PAUL. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack was never married, was he?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the changeover from the Sovereign to the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates and times, as close as you can.

Mr. PAUL. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far as he was concerned. Either he closed it or—either he closes it or he does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a burlesque. That’s when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong to the club?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right; he had a bottle club.

Mr. HUBERT. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the club, and if you didn’t you couldn’t, and it was your thought that the thing could be a success if its nature were changed?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; well, it’s an open place.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you couldn’t sell hard liquor?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But it would sell beer?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But your proposition to him was that you would advance $1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. & R., Inc.?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal; S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the first deal,” are you speaking of the corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware that there was a corporation called Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500 of the shares?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock certificates, was it?

Mr. PAUL. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign Club was the S. & R., because Slayton didn’t belong to anything else but the Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650?

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s after Slayton went out.

Mr. HUBERT. After Slayton went out?

Mr. PAUL. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then.

Mr. HUBERT. He did?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months’ rent?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the Sovereign?

Mr. PAUL. S. & R.

Mr. HUBERT. And what year would that have been in?

Mr. PAUL. In 1959 or 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.?

Mr. PAUL. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what happened to your 500 shares?

Mr. PAUL. It’s still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It’s still S. & R.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have those shares?

Mr. PAUL. No; I gave them over to his sister.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. PAUL. February 14.

Mr. HUBERT. Of this year?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel, until recently?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you get any income from the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any kind of pay?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the years at all?

Mr. PAUL. He never paid me a dime.

Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200, which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned him for which you got a security—500 shares of a corporation—and then another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he still owes you that much money?

Mr. PAUL. Well, what am I going to do?

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to that. He never paid you any dividends?

Mr. PAUL. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to work from his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Carousel very much?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; once or twice a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you usually go on Saturday nights?

Mr. PAUL. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights.

Mr. HUBERT. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and that’s what I want to find out, if there were any. I don’t know what the nature of them was; that’s why I’m asking you about it. If there were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the Carousel.

Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby never paid you any money at all?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of dividends? Or in the way of profits?

Mr. PAUL. In the first place, until the last year that he was there, he was losing money.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. At the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it make some money in the last year?

Mr. PAUL. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was arrested—now, mind you, when he was arrested—you wouldn’t think that an electric company—you could owe them that much money, but there was $175 or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600.

Mr. HUBERT. The electric company?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; the electric company—Dallas Electric Lights, and the telephone company—$153. He kept on owing everybody money.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you didn’t get any payments of money from him?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. For your share of what any profits might have been or dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is that correct?

Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why you did that?

Mr. PAUL. Well, for one reason, I couldn’t run the club; I tried to run it, but I couldn’t run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it from the 25th of November until the 14th of February.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it Jack?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know; I was never interested to know all the other facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Earl Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Jack’s brother?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. PAUL. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come here often?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times.

Mr. HUBERT. In your whole life, until the 25th?

Mr. PAUL. Until the 25th, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he claim any?

Mr. PAUL. I still don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his brother Hyman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I met him one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Just one time?

Mr. PAUL. The Friday before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Before the murder?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met him before?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his sister, Eileen?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all?

Mr. PAUL. I never heard of her.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert.

Mr. PAUL. No; I don’t know her, either.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met any of the other brothers and sisters?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. And then Hyman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; Sam—well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that.

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she ask you, or did you volunteer to do that?

Mr. PAUL. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that it wasn’t anything to you?

Mr. PAUL. I told her, “I don’t want nothing out of it; I don’t want nothing, I take my loss.” And I let her have it. If she could sell it—to take the money and use it for herself, because she’s a poor widow and she will verify everything I said—just the words.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares?

Mr. PAUL. No; she just told me last week—she was over at my place, and she told me she didn’t know who had the other 500 shares.

Mr. HUBERT. Has anyone asked Earl about it?

Mr. PAUL. I didn’t ask Earl about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail?

Mr. PAUL. I have seen him three times since he has been in there—one time I seen him—about 4 weeks ago—the time before I went to New York, the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think it was, and I came back the 2d.

Mr. HUBERT. That was of April?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him once just before that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been in jail?

Mr. PAUL. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail—twice I saw him then.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail and then you saw him two other times before that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When were those times—about?

Mr. PAUL. I think about the second week and the fourth week—I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him his business?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir—no, sir; I didn’t discuss it—I didn’t discuss nothing—how could you discuss a man’s business when he is held for murder?

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I didn’t mean that you would bring up the subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares are?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you gave your 500 you held to her—you received nothing in return for it?

Mr. PAUL. No: what I told her to do was to pay the Government.

Mr. HUBERT. And from all you know, she doesn’t even know where the other 500 shares are?

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s what she told me.

Mr. HUBERT. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think, last year was about the last of it—I think you used about $1,000 a year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another transaction?

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s from the Miramar and the ice cream place—that was in 1957. The place wasn’t in existence in 1957.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men’s apparel, let’s call it, shirts and so forth.

Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?

Mr. PAUL. No; retail—maybe wholesale, I don’t know—he was working for some firm on the road. Well, it’s Jack that made a friend of him you know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody—am I right?

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the year 1963?

Mr. PAUL. I think so—some cars and little—different things, a lot of a little truck, and then finally about—oh, maybe in July or August——

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; they pushed him out, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean his company did?

Mr. PAUL. It isn’t a company, they pushed him out because he wasn’t selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn’t doing nothing and he was living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got married and he didn’t have no money, so Jack told him he could live with him until he could get another job, but that’s George Senator.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known George?

Mr. PAUL. About 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time?

Mr. PAUL. I think so—maybe a little longer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any work around the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. George Senator?

Mr. PAUL. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don’t know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I can’t answer that.

Mr. PAUL. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of that. You know what I used to do—I used to count the money for him at the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean, he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that—that’s interesting.

Mr. PAUL. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the end of the night, he would say to me, “Clear the register.” So, I would count the money. He says, “Let the boy from the bar give you the money and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car.” And that’s how I got the money.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be seen counting the money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes: that’s right—that’s why I wanted to know who told you.

Mr. HUBERT. But that’s all it amounted to, just that you had counted the money for him?

Mr. PAUL. That’s all—I would bring it downstairs—he never carried it with him actually—I don’t know why he carried so much money the last time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk and he said, “That’s the place that nobody looks.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the sack and he never put it on his person at all?

Mr. PAUL. No—in the back of the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn’t take it upstairs?

Mr. PAUL. What do you mean—no; he never took it up to the house—he left it in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had around like that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers and what you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on his person and in the car an so forth, something in excess——

Mr. PAUL. It was in the car too, wasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he didn’t keep it on his person at all?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person?

Mr. PAUL. It’s a funny thing about the gun—he would always carry it in a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag.

Mr. HUBERT. A canvas bag, and——

Mr. PAUL. Unless he went some place special, because he always said somebody might want to beat him up.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “some place special”—like what?

Mr. PAUL. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you know, I mean he wouldn’t carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or something, he wouldn’t carry the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. But he took his gun?

Mr. PAUL. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the gun—the bag was if he wasn’t going to no place or he went home—if he went to eat, he would take it with him.

Mr. HUBERT. The gun or the bag?

Mr. PAUL. The bag with the gun.

Mr. HUBERT. From his car?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But yet he would leave it outside all night?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In the car?

Mr. PAUL. In the car.

Mr. HUBERT. But let me see if I get this straight—if he was going to eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of the trunk——

Mr. PAUL. No; the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. The bag—with the gun only?

Mr. PAUL. The gun.

Mr. HUBERT. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car.

Mr. HUBERT. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say that there were occasions when he would take the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster, but in a bag?

Mr. PAUL. But in a bag—so everybody thought he was carrying money.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he ever owned a holster?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in his waist?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when he carried it in a bag?

Mr. PAUL. In the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in California?

Mr. PAUL. Gruber?

Mr. HUBERT. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r.

Mr. PAUL. That name doesn’t sound familiar to me. I’ll tell you, Jack had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway. He used to introduce me and the name just flew by.

Mr. HUBERT. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne Crafard, as he was called—do you know anything about him, that young man that was around the club for the last month or so?

Mr. PAUL. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to sleep there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. PAUL. Jack brought up so many—no; I never did talk to him, but I never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of weeks they disappeared.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack to bring in someone?

Mr. PAUL. Take them home to sleep—a man that hasn’t got a place to live. I used to say to Jack, “Suppose he robs you?” He says, “So, he robs me.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie?

Mr. PAUL. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in—not Vegas—what is the other place?

Mr. HUBERT. Vegas is right.

Mr. PAUL. Vegas—is he?

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his business when he was here?

Mr. PAUL. When he come—he used to go to golf places and bet on golf.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he a gambler in general—all sorts of gambling?

Mr. PAUL. I think so—I never had any dealings with him either.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of Ruby’s dealings with him?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And stayed with McWillie?

Mr. PAUL. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare—McWillie was running the gambling house down there for the—I don’t know what it was—Batista or some of their people—somebody else down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it?

Mr. PAUL. Well, Jack told me.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. PAUL. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a vacation.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation?

Mr. PAUL. Just a vacation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for Jack?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his. Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie. Actually—and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him when McWillie was around.

Mr. HUBERT. You disliked McWillie?

Mr. PAUL. No: but I didn’t care too much for his personality.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his answer?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he told me—that he thinks he is a great guy—Jack says. Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and Jack made everybody a friend and I haven’t got too many friends. I just work to make a living. I’m not interested in a whole lot of other things.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man who made a lot of friends?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were one of his friends?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had fewer friends than he did?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you considered yourself one of his best friends?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—Jack’s best friend.

Mr. HUBERT. Both ways?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana?

Mr. PAUL. A week or 10 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New Orleans?

Mr. PAUL. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway—it wasn’t a straight flight.

Mr. HUBERT. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not—what I wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you—that’s the way you would know.

Mr. PAUL. I’m telling you that he did.

Mr. HUBERT. That he told you that he went from here to Miami?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And from Miami down to Havana?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the route back, he came back through Miami?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I think that’s what he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken?

Mr. PAUL. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to—what are those Springs over there—Hot Springs—I think 2 weekends in a row.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made?

Mr. PAUL. He went to New York.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. PAUL. Last year to see the AGVA president.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the Weinsteins?

Mr. PAUL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that was in August, was it not?

Mr. PAUL. No; it was earlier than August, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—he went to—somebody told him about this strip down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Bourbon Street?

Mr. PAUL. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act.

Mr. HUBERT. He went for what purpose?

Mr. PAUL. To catch her act—to catch the girl’s act, so he could book her.

Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to look at the girl’s act to see if he could get any talent to come up here?

Mr. PAUL. The reason why—she asked for a lot of money.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, what is her name——

Mr. HUBERT. Jada?

Mr. PAUL. Jada.

Mr. HUBERT. He went down to Bourbon Street to see if he could get any striptease acts?

Mr. PAUL. That was the one he was sent to look at.

Mr. HUBERT. He was especially sent for Jada?

Mr. PAUL. This Earl Norman—the M.C.—was down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and he saw her and he asked Jack to go down and see and get her, that she was going to bring him a lot of business.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew this because Jack kept you in touch with the things he was doing and he made a contract with Jada, did he?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; she worked at the club quite a while.

Mr. HUBERT. She brought in some money, as I understand?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and no. At first she was doing all right, and then she fell off to nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. She quit, I think, before her contract was over?

Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was a verbal contract—the last. You see, they had a contract to start with and then it became a verbal contract—she works as long as she wants to—as long as he wants to keep her.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the first contract was a written contract but of limited time, and when it ran out it was on a weekly basis?

Mr. PAUL. On a weekly basis.

Mr. HUBERT. During last fall, say from the time Jack came back from New York until November, do you think you saw him two or three times a week then? Or spoke to him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you are in a position to say whether or not he left town during any of those times during the period after he came back from New York—say, September, October, and November?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t quite understand your answer—are you in a position to say?

Mr. PAUL. He didn’t leave town.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion?

Mr. PAUL. The only place I know he went is New Orleans and New York, last year.

Mr. HUBERT. And in your opinion if he had gone anyplace else, you would have known it?

Mr. PAUL. I would have known it. In fact, I was the only one that knew he went to New York, but when he went to New Orleans everybody knew because that was another thing—that was no secret.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are basing your opinion on the knowledge of his movements by the fact that you were in contact with him both in person and by telephone several times a week all through this period?

Mr. PAUL. Almost every day.

Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another?

Mr. PAUL. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another or see one another?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—telephone mostly. In the last year, I think I used to go to the club twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, because all the other nights I was working.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those were your nights off?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went almost 100 percent of the time that you had nights off, Tuesday and Friday, you went to the Carousel and you would stay there all evening?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I wouldn’t come until late anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. You would come late and stay until it closed?

Mr. PAUL. And then go for coffee or something to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. And in other than those days you would get in touch by telephone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose—just friendship?

Mr. PAUL. That’s all—and, he had trouble with the Weinsteins and he always asked for advice. That’s why he used to call me all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. The telephone records, as you know, show quite a number of calls between you.

Mr. PAUL. They don’t?

Mr. HUBERT. They do, and I was wondering just what those calls were about.

Mr. PAUL. Well, every day he would find something else he would like to do—he would think of doing, or the union didn’t do right by him, the AGVA, or the girls didn’t do right—that’s why he called me almost every day.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would call you if he had trouble with the girls?

Mr. PAUL. If he had trouble with any of the girls, he would call me.

Mr. HUBERT. If he had trouble with the one—with the Weinsteins, he would call you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and the AGVA people—you see, they’ve got a board of directors and each one takes a part, and if this one doesn’t do right—that was almost consistently—he called on that.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. PAUL. On Friday—I was working. It was the lunch hour, you know, and lunch hour is our busiest hour. I’m always there on the lunch hour, and my landlord’s son called me on the telephone and told me the President was shot—they got it on the radio, and so I turned on the radio and then we all listened, everybody in the place naturally, because there was some excitement—people hollered and cried all over the place, and then everybody was listening to the radio to see what the result would be, and at 2 o’clock I went home, or a little after 2—generally I stayed until 2 o’clock on Friday. A little after 2—and when I got home Jack called me and he said, “Did you hear what happened?” I said, “Yes; I heard it on the air.” He says, “Isn’t that a terrible thing?” I said, “Yes; Jack.” He said, “I made up my mind. I’m going to close it down.” I said, “Well, I can’t close down, I’ve got an eating place.”

Mr. HUBERT. And did he suggest to you that you should close down your place?

Mr. PAUL. That’s what he said, “Ain’t you going to close?” I said, “No; I’ve got an eating place.” I says, “You can do whatever you want.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you whether he should close down?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t discuss it. He told me he was going to close down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you for how long?

Mr. PAUL. Three days.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at 2 o’clock?

Mr. PAUL. Friday at 2—Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. He was going to close up?

Mr. PAUL. Friday night and Saturday and Sunday nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he had chosen those 3 nights?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; in honor of the President being shot—he was heartbroken.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, why 3 nights instead of 2 or 4?

Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told him. I said to him, “Are the other clubs going to close?” He said, “I don’t care about the other clubs.”

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling you from, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—he didn’t say where he was calling me from. He generally called me from a telephone booth or the club—not so much from his home.

Mr. HUBERT. What would seem to be his condition when you were talking to him, emotionally and otherwise?

Mr. PAUL. Very bad emotionally—he said, “I can’t believe it.”

Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—if you don’t see the person, you can’t tell the person on a telephone how he reacts or——

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have known him for a good many years.

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I’ve known Jack for so many years and he has always been that way, you know, reaction—fast—punch line—got to do this right away [indicating]. With him it wasn’t—he thought and did. It wasn’t a second thought.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are quite clear that when he called you about 2 o’clock——

Mr. PAUL. That’s about a little after the time I got home—was a quarter to 3.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the first time you had heard from him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The President was already dead?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was known he was dead?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about Tippit?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t know nothing about Tippit. I didn’t know nothing about Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t tell me anything about Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he said he had made up his mind he was going to close up the club for 3 days already?

Mr. PAUL. Yes

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t ask you—he told you?

Mr. PAUL. No; he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last—about?

Mr. PAUL. Three or 4 minutes—he says, “It’s a terrible, terrible thing.” Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was then?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; he says, “It’s such a terrible thing that I’m going to go to synagogue.” He says, “Do you want to come along?” I says, “No; I don’t go to the synagogue, I’m not going to make a fool out of myself.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go to the synagogue?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go often?

Mr. PAUL. For a year he went every—should I say—every day.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after his father’s death?

Mr. PAUL. That was after his father died—yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s part of the Jewish religion that you should do that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s true.

Mr. HUBERT. And he followed that?

Mr. PAUL. He followed that very closely.

Mr. HUBERT. After that, did he go very much?

Mr. PAUL. No; once in a while on holidays—he made it a habit of going on holidays to the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Jewish holidays?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go every week?

Mr. PAUL. No—no.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the synagogue?

Mr. PAUL. To tell you the truth, I didn’t—anything Jack does is no surprise to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn’t get that, did you get that?

The REPORTER. “To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise to me.”

Mr. HUBERT. But it was not his normal custom?

Mr. PAUL. No; but he says he’s going to pray because a thing like that happened.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that, you think, was about what time?

Mr. PAUL. About 6 o’clock in the evening.

Mr. HUBERT. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes, too?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from him next?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether it was that night again, after he got out of synagogue—I can’t recall. But, he didn’t call me again—I know—until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said, “Did you see my ad in the paper?” I says, “What paper?” Well, Saturday is a pretty bad paper, and I said, “What paper?” He says, “In the Times Herald and the News.” I said, “What did you put?” He said, “That I’m closing down for 3 days.” I said, “That’s what you said to me yesterday.” He said, “But, it’s in the paper.” I said, “All right, I believe you.”

Mr. HUBERT. You think that was Saturday afternoon?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night before?

Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t see him—no; when I saw him was Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at the club then?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t feel too good that night, and I left home—I generally work until 1 o’clock in the morning. I left at 11 o’clock and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they told him I didn’t feel well, and he says, “What’s wrong with you?” And I says, “I’ve got a cold,” and then he told me that he was downtown and that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, “Well, if nobody is doing any business, I guess you had better close.”

Mr. HUBERT. And what did he say to that?

Mr. PAUL. Then he called me back one more time—I didn’t give you this before because I didn’t—then he called me back one more time and told me that he was over at his sister’s house, Eva’s house, and Eva was crying and they are both crying.

Mr. HUBERT. This was Saturday night?

Mr. PAUL. This was Saturday night—that was late. I said, “Jack, I don’t feel good. Let me go to sleep.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the second call come?

Mr. PAUL. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o’clock, and the second call I think was about 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You had left at what time?

Mr. PAUL. I left the place about 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of your feeling ill?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he reached you shortly after you got there?

Mr. PAUL. No, it was about an hour or so later.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in bed already?

Mr. PAUL. I was in bed already—that was the last time I spoke to him, I says, “Jack, let me go to sleep because I don’t feel well.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was on the second call?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the second call was at what time?

Mr. PAUL. About 11 or 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. The first call was about 9:30?

Mr. PAUL. No; about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after?

Mr. PAUL. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20 minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so forth—it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the first call—he had called your place and found out you were not feeling well?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn’t feeling well and he told me that nobody downtown was doing any business.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped, because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed, and that was about the subject of that conversation?

Mr. PAUL. That’s—that was that conversation. That’s the subject, and then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister’s house and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the President, and that’s the last I spoke to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You could hear her crying or he told you?

Mr. PAUL. He just told me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was crying, did he seem to be crying?

Mr. PAUL. No; he wasn’t crying then when he spoke to me.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t crying then—in other words, what he was telling you was that he and his sister had been crying?

Mr. PAUL. Had been crying.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that all he wanted to tell you?

Mr. PAUL. That’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother you any more, would that be about it?

Mr. PAUL. And I went to sleep and that’s the last I talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was your next contact with Jack?

Mr. PAUL. When he was in jail.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about the Oswald matter?

Mr. PAUL. Sunday morning—I was—I had just finished making out the payroll.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl answered the phone and she says—he says, “Oswald is shot.”

Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?

Mr. PAUL. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, “Oswald was shot,” so I looked up and I says, “So what?” I mean—just the regular coincidence. “So what?” 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the corner that knew me—he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named Howard something, came in and says, “Jack Ruby shot Oswald.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that man’s name?

Mr. PAUL. Howard something.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s his first name?

Mr. PAUL. Howard is his first name—I can’t think of the second name—he’s just a customer there—he used to work a long time ago at the Sky Club—I think he was—he used to be their cabinet man there, so I says, “Go away.” I says, “Wait, I’ll call the house.” So, I called the house and nobody answered.

Mr. HUBERT. You called Jack’s house?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I called Jack’s house and nobody answered, so Jackson and his wife came in and said, “Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack Ruby shot Oswald.” So, I says, “All right”—that’s when I called Tom Howard.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting?

Mr. PAUL. Well, you know—shooting—we didn’t think he killed him.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand.

Mr. PAUL. So, I says, “Tom,” well Tom has been my lawyer for the longest time.

Mr. HUBERT. He has been your lawyer?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and Jack’s too.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack’s too?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I says, “Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I heard he shot Oswald.” He says, “Okay,” and that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether he did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was not aware that Ruby had shot him?

Mr. PAUL. No; I just told him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t. He says, “Okay, I’ll take care of it.” Those are the words he said.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do and without indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could tell, he says, “I’ll see what I can do.” And that was the end of the conversation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself?

Mr. PAUL. Who—Tom?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. No; I went down to his office anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you went where?

Mr. PAUL. Downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. PAUL. I went to the—John and I and the girl went down to the police station and I saw Tom Howard there.

Mr. HUBERT. Inside the station?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whereabouts was it, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. It was right off the entrance to the—as you walk in—do you know where the entrance is when you walk in?

Mr. HUBERT. From Harwood Street?

Mr. PAUL. What?

Mr. HUBERT. On Harwood Street?

Mr. PAUL. No; it’s on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Not the basement ramp?

Mr. PAUL. The basement ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. You went through the basement ramp?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?

Mr. PAUL. Maybe 1 o’clock, and so we meet him, and he says, “They won’t let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office. I think it’s on television.” So we walked over to his office and we watched television until about 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Jackson and you and Howard?

Mr. PAUL. No; not Howard—a girl Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Tammi True and you went to Howard’s office?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Howard was there?

Mr. PAUL. No; I was in the courthouse—he sent us over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Howard sent you to his office to watch television?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; to watch television.

Mr. HUBERT. And he went where, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did?

Mr. PAUL. No; he—some more lawyers they all got together and then they left again and they came back again and riding into town, that’s when we heard that Oswald was dead—died.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Howard’s office, you knew he had died?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas corpus for Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. So you stayed there, you said, until about when?

Mr. PAUL. 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tammi True?

Mr. PAUL. That’s one of the girls that worked at the club before—she was an entertainer.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson?

Mr. PAUL. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive in her car?

Mr. PAUL. No; in Jackson’s car.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and stayed until 3 o’clock?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. PAUL. I went back—went back home.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you?

Mr. PAUL. No; I went as far as—we took Tammi back and then I let Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies.

Mr. HUBERT. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then came back to Arlington?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And left off Jackson?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in, I says, “Anybody looking for me,” to the cashier, and she says, “A reporter and a photographer was calling you.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies and I think you said you went to the Majestic?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get there?

Mr. PAUL. I got there about 4:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car some place?

Mr. PAUL. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don’t have to have no parking.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show?

Mr. PAUL. I stayed there about an hour—I wasn’t interested too much in the show, I just wanted to get away from everything.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come out of the show?

Mr. PAUL. It must have been about, oh, 6 something—I went back and I went to Jackson’s house.

Mr. HUBERT. You went into the show about what time—4:30, you think?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out, about an hour and a half?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, what did you do?

Mr. PAUL. I went back and went over to Jackson’s house.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on what street and where?

Mr. PAUL. That’s where I’m living now—Browning Street.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to his house—go ahead?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was there with you?

Mr. PAUL. The girls.

Mr. HUBERT. What girls?

Mr. PAUL. Jackson’s girls.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean his daughters?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; two girls; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was just the three of you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; they made me something to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got there about what time?

Mr. PAUL. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering over at her house.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Eva?

Mr. PAUL. No; Jackson’s sister, so we went over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Her name is Mrs. Gable?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two FBI men; that was 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Bowman?

Mr. PAUL. Mrs. Bowman?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?

Mr. PAUL. She’s my ex-partner’s wife.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with her at that time?

Mr. PAUL. We were living together in a big house.

Mr. HUBERT. On that date?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s way out in the country.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her that day?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think I did—I might have seen her when I left the house.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time would that have been?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see her after Oswald was shot?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so—I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot?

Mr. PAUL. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed clothes—that’s what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson’s house.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of the club?

Mr. PAUL. That Monday after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ask you to do so?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t see Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva ask you to do so?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, why did you do it?

Mr. PAUL. Personally, I don’t know—I just did it on the spur of the moment, and I have been sorry every day after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going to do this?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask—well, weren’t you interested in salvaging some of the debt that was owed to you if you could?

Mr. PAUL. If I could.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I meant—that was why you did it?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into—it turned out to be a lemon.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was owed to you?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the thing a success—whatever Jack’s interest was, it would be helpful to him, too?

Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind?

Mr. PAUL. Well, naturally—I mean——

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want to put words in your mouth—if it’s not so, tell me.

Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was on the spur of the moment that I did it, and I learned right away it cost me money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva object?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of his brothers or sisters object?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you actually operated it for approximately 2½ months?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then why did you close it?

Mr. PAUL. Well, maybe I would still be operating it—no, I wasn’t going to operate it any more. I told Eva, “I’m going to give you the stock,” and let her do whatever she wanted to with it, because I couldn’t do it any more. The second thing is, I had a broken foot—I couldn’t make it any more over there. I was only coming up once a week, and the thing was shot, and then on the same day I decided to that, the liquor control board closed it up. They didn’t close it up, they sent me a notice that I can’t sell beer, so I might as well close it up.

Mr. HUBERT. And it hasn’t been opened since then?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You paid the rent and all the bills during that time?

Mr. PAUL. When I was operating it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you came out a deficit of about $3,000?

Mr. PAUL. At least—maybe more—I paid the Government $1,770.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that for?

Mr. PAUL. Back taxes.

Mr. HUBERT. Excise taxes?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was for September, November, October, December.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that excise tax?

Mr. PAUL. Excise tax—that’s the cabaret tax, they call it.

Mr. HUBERT. It doesn’t have anything to do with the social security or withholding taxes?

Mr. PAUL. I paid them some of that too—there was only one person that was getting paid—all the entertainers got their own—they don’t go under social security.

Mr. HUBERT. They are self-employed?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a woman by the name of Bertha Cheek?

Mr. PAUL. What is her name?

Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. PAUL. It doesn’t even ring a bell.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever tell you that just towards the end, in a week or two prior to the death of Oswald, that he was trying to borrow some money from her, and get her interested in opening a new cabaret?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or doing something to the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; that name don’t even ring a bell to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all and he never mentioned her?

Mr. PAUL. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he mention that he was trying to raise any money?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps you would be in as good a position as anybody else to tell us some things about Jack’s personal life. As you may know, there have been some rumors at least, that maybe Jack was a homosexual?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—there was rumors?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, you have heard the rumors?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We would like your opinion on that subject.

Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the man a long time?

Mr. PAUL. A long time.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion he was not a homosexual?

Mr. PAUL. Positively.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship with women generally; do you know?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he liked women.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have affairs with them?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—just different times, different women all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever particularly attached to one?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. PAUL. Let me remember that name again—mention some names, I can’t think of the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Nichols?

Mr. PAUL. Alice Nichols—yes, I think they were going around together for about 10 or 11 years. I used to go out with them too.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship to the girls who used to work in his place, was it strictly a business relationship?

Mr. PAUL. With the girls—strictly business. He would like to make a girl that would come up there, but not the girls that was working for him.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he wouldn’t try to date the strippers or waitresses?

Mr. PAUL. No—we used to take them out for coffee after they got through, but that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a picture, or rather several pictures which have already been identified, and I’m not going to give them a new identification number. I’m going to show you a group of five pictures, exact copies of which have already been identified in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibits 5300 A through F and ask you if it is not so that Jack Ruby appears in each one of those pictures?

Mr. PAUL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two girls in there?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. One has blonde hair and is wearing dark clothes and the other is—has darker hair and is wearing a striped dress.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who they are, referring first to the one with the blonde hair with the black dress?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, that’s Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other one?

Mr. PAUL. This is Alice—somebody—I don’t know the second name anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Anderson?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—I never knew her second name. She worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. When did she work there?

Mr. PAUL. Alice was a waitress or a champagne girl, what you call them, and she was the strip.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, Kathy Kay was a strip?

Mr. PAUL. Kathy Kay was a strip.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had the girl that you identify as Alice, to wit, the girl in those pictures with the striped dress, how long had she been working at the club?

Mr. PAUL. Well, from the time he made a burlesque out of it, she used to work a couple of weeks, a couple of months, then quit and come back and work another couple of months or couple of weeks and then quit. She was never a steady girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Is she married?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he date her?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you positive or is it that you just don’t know?

Mr. PAUL. That I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from the way you answered the question that you knew him so well that you probably would have known it if he had?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—if he did I would have known.

Mr. HUBERT. He would tell you that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you about his affairs with women, is that right?

Mr. PAUL. No; not always—he told me about affairs he wanted to tell me about, let’s put it that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there lots of them?

Mr. PAUL. Well, there were quite a few.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a girl by the name of Joyce McDonald?

Mr. PAUL. Joyce?

Mr. HUBERT. I think her stage name was Joy Dale?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize her in the photo I am now showing you?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, I recognize her.

Mr. HUBERT. This photograph has been identified in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibit 5301 A through E, and there are five pictures here showing a man and two girls—Jack Ruby is the man, of course; is that right?

Mr. PAUL. I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. And the girl on your right, as you look at the picture?

Mr. PAUL. I’m not seeing it.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to identify both girls, but do so in such a way that the record can show it—in other words, when you say, “this” it won’t show up on the record, but when you say “this” you must say the girl on the left-hand side of the picture as you are looking at it—is that who you mean?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the girl called Joyce Day?

Mr. PAUL. Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the one on the right-hand side of the picture?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; the one on the right-hand side is—what do you call her again—that little girl up that went to court?

Mr. HUBERT. Little Lynn?

Mr. PAUL. Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Karen Bennett, did you know her as that?

Mr. PAUL. No; I never knew her as that, all I knew her was Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship between this Dale girl and Jack Ruby was that you have identified in Exhibit 5301 A through E, the deposition of Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what Andrew knew, but I know nothing about her. I know she worked there—she was a stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, was there any romantic relationship or sex relationship?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say “yes” and I wouldn’t say “no.”

Mr. HUBERT. You just don’t know?

Mr. PAUL. Anything I don’t know—I can’t say I know.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s absolutely correct. I am simply asking you because you have been a friend a long time and as you said a moment ago, he told you some of the things that he wanted you to know?

Mr. PAUL. Well; I don’t think he wanted me to know about any of the girls that worked in the club, even if he did have affairs with them—that would be—I probably would say something to him, but on the outside, I know a lot of girls that he had affairs with.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m now going to show you a picture which has been identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her?

Mr. PAUL. That’s the same Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Kathy Kay?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with the white shirt, the very heavy man?

Mr. PAUL. This one over here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him there?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never did?

Mr. PAUL. No—there isn’t a familiar face in there. What is he supposed to be? No answers [laughing].

Mr. HUBERT. I will show you now two pictures that have been previously identified as Exhibit 5304 A and B in connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, the first one showing a girl serving a man who is seated, and there is apparently a boy in the background, and I ask you if you can identify that place, first of all, is that the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the place at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the girl is who is in the stripper suit?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the man is, sitting down at the table?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that bartender is standing at the back?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Mickey Ryan?

Mr. PAUL. No—I might have heard the name but I never knew a guy with a name like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recognize the man at the bar?

Mr. PAUL. No—it’s not in the Carousel, that’s for sure. The Carousel had no cloths on the tables.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did it have a bar?

Mr. PAUL. It had a bar.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, not for liquor.

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s right—that looks like a private club.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you familiar with the notebooks and memo books that Ruby kept?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that one of the girls in the club had a boy friend named Tommy, do you know who that was—Tommy?

Mr. PAUL. The only real boy friends that I can give you the name of and she got married to the boy recently.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. PAUL. He was in the police department, but I can’t think of his name. He made her give up the business and they got married and went to California, but you know, talking about boy friends, those girls have boy friends all the time—they are different boy friends—you never know which one is which. I can’t remember one name from another.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, here’s what I wanted to get at—after you took over the club, you apparently hired someone to collect the cover charge at the front?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was a gray-haired man, I’m told?

Mr. PAUL. No, it was Leo Torti.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] T-o-r-t-i?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have a gray-haired man there?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get him, had he been there before?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He had worked there before?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he didn’t actually work, he used to help Eva, and when Eva closed that place down he came to help there, but he never got paid for anything—just, I took him home and I took him out for a bite to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been?

Mr. PAUL. Forty or forty something—he isn’t gray. I’m the only gray man that was there.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no gray man who was on the door collecting?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva close up the Vegas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, she closed it up and then she sold it.

Mr. HUBERT. When—before the Carousel was closed up?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes, she closed it up right after New Year’s.

Mr. HUBERT. Right after Ruby was put in jail?

Mr. PAUL. No, right after New Year’s.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean she sold it?

Mr. PAUL. She sold it.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did she sell it to?

Mr. PAUL. She sold it to two men and a woman that formed a corporation and bought it. It’s still called the Vegas Club—they’ve got it in the paper “under new management—Vegas Club.” I don’t even know who they are.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you at the beginning of the deposition, or even before the deposition began, a number of sheets of paper, the first group numbering nine pages, purporting to be a report of an interview of you by the FBI agents Lish [spelling] L-i-s-h and Barratt [spelling] B-a-r-r-a-t-t, relating to an interview with you on November 24, 1963, running, as I said, for nine pages.

For the purpose of identification, I am marking the first page as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5319, Deposition of Ralph Paul,” and I am putting my name on the first page, and also writing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of every one of the other pages.

Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that document, now identified as Exhibit 5319?

Mr. PAUL. What do you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had a chance to read it?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth as far as you know?

Mr. PAUL. As far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any corrections you want to make or errors you want to correct in it?

Mr. PAUL. Well, you asked me the same thing——

Mr. HUBERT. By referring specifically to Exhibit 5319, you see, is there anything in Exhibit 5319 that is not the truth as far as you know, in this document here?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s why I asked you to read it, so you could tell me whether there is anything you want to change in there and you may take your time with it—I don’t want to rush you at all.

Mr. PAUL. This page alone, or the whole thing?

Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing.

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what I could change.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it?

Mr. PAUL. I think I did—in what respect are you asking me that?

Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know if everything in there is correct, and to give you the opportunity of changing anything in there that is not correct.

Mr. PAUL. Well, I told you the same thing that you asked me—that’s all here—I can’t change it in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can if it is not the truth, because all we want is the truth.

Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told you—the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state, then, that the facts related, the statements made in the documents, consisting of nine pages which I have now identified as Exhibit 5319, are correct?

Mr. PAUL. As far as I can recall they are correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything to add that document that you think of right now?

Mr. PAUL. As far as I could tell, when they asked me those questions, I told them that was that.

Mr. HUBERT. And this seems to be a true and fair report of the interview with you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you want to delete from that because it is wrong?

Mr. PAUL. How is it wrong?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it is not wrong, I would take it you would not want to delete it. That’s what I’m trying to do—is to ask you if there is anything in there that’s incorrect, because what we are seeking to get is the truth.

Mr. PAUL. You think this is wrong?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I didn’t suggest it was wrong. I want to ask you—since you have had an opportunity to read it——

Mr. PAUL. Everything I told them at the time was the right thing—I told them.

Mr. HUBERT. And that seems to be a fair and honest report of the interview you had with them?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all I wanted to know about that.

Now, there is another document which purports to be an interview with you by FBI Agent Clements.

Mr. PAUL. On the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. On November 28, 1963?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, over the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for purposes of identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5320, Deposition of Ralph Paul,” and I am signing my name on that document. That document contains only one page and it refers——

Mr. PAUL. To the stock deal.

Mr. HUBERT. To some stock deal.

Mr. PAUL. Let me see it just a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. This document relates to some conversation with Special Agent Clements, which was had with you, and it is a report of it. Now, will you tell me—I think that that conversation was over the phone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe the document so indicates, but if that is one thing we have learned from this is that that was over the phone—does it fairly state the content of the conversation you had with the agent?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he asked me what was my interest in the club and I told him I got a certificate of 50 shares, which I received from Jack Ruby because he wanted to protect the money I loaned him, that if anything goes wrong—well, he didn’t put it in so many words—he put it in a different—collateral—you know what that means—and he said, “Is that what you mean?” And I said, “I guess that’s what it is supposed to be.”

I told him that Jack Ruby and Slayton formed the Sovereign Club and it was called the S. and R., Incorporated. I never knew anything about the Sovereign Club, Incorporated, that it was then terminated and became the Carousel Club, which he gave it a name.

Now, I don’t know whether the Carousel Club was incorporated, and I said, “I think it is Earl, Ruby’s brother, that had the 500 other shares,” but I didn’t know for sure, that’s what I told him. He said he believes Earl, Ruby’s brother. I was confused with the question of whether I owned stock or not, which I was. I thought it was merely—he gives me the stock because, like I told you, when he wanted to sell the place he asked me for the stock so he could sell the place.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, at the time you spoke to him, in fact you were confused as to what the situation was?

Mr. PAUL. I sure was.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m asking you, is—is this a fair statement of what you told him?

Mr. PAUL. I think I gave him a fair statement right up to the minute—not that statement—that statement isn’t up to the minute, but up to the time.

Mr. HUBERT. But at the time—it was accurate?

Mr. PAUL. At the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the President’s Commission before?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paul, one final thing—we have the two statements that you have given to the FBI, and you have what you have told us tonight—do you think that putting those two things together we have just about all you know about Jack Ruby and about what he had to do with the slaying of Oswald and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know nothing about the slaying of Oswald—that’s for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but we know all you know about it when we have what you told us tonight and this statement—there’s nothing else?

Mr. PAUL. I just told you all I know about Jack Ruby for 15 years.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s nothing we don’t know that you know?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. PAUL. If I knew any more I would be willing to tell you, because you didn’t pull the words out of my mouth either.

Mr. HUBERT. No; that’s correct.

Mr. PAUL. I spoke to you as I knew it.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to add?

Mr. PAUL. No—really, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your coming in and I am sorry it took so long.

Mr. PAUL. Well, that’s perfectly all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. PAUL. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45 a.m.

Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Senator.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby.

Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of it?

Mr. SENATOR. April 16, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. SENATOR. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was. What was the date Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday would have been the 18th.

Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the event that you did not get the full 3 days.

Mr. SENATOR. We will continue.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive it.

Mr. SENATOR. I waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SENATOR. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Now will you state your full name?

Mr. SENATOR. George Senator.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Senator?

Mr. SENATOR. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. HUBERT. And when?

Mr. SENATOR. September 4, 1913.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present address, that is residence?

Mr. SENATOR. Right now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your permanent residence?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another place?

Mr. SENATOR. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do not know where.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home temporarily?

Mr. SENATOR. Temporarily.

Mr. HUBERT. But your purpose is to live in New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place to live, move out from your sister’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation, beginning actually with your education.

Mr. SENATOR. My education was up to the eighth grade.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. I moved to New York and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean New York City?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I moved in with my sister at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the same sister you are now living with?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her name, by the way?

Mr. SENATOR. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with her?

Mr. SENATOR. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was only in my teens then.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.

Mr. HUBERT. And you continued in that occupation——

Mr. SENATOR. Just in my young teens.

Mr. HUBERT. Until you were how old?

Mr. SENATOR. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. You were living with your sister as you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of occupation and residence?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance, was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had peritonitis. I went back home again.

Mr. HUBERT. This was after age 18 or before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is now after 18.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or 2 years you were not working because of illness and you were staying mostly with your mother at home?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where? What place was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his last name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with him?

Mr. SENATOR. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. At which time you lived with your mother?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I lived home.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say around there, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened after those days of your life?

Mr. SENATOR. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I went back to New York.

Mr. HUBERT. City, you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled either from my sister to my mother.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not have any residence of your own?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the same address?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you——

Mr. SENATOR. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think of the numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.

Mr. SENATOR. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live then?

Mr. SENATOR. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets, you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks, something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now. I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand that and we understand therefore that your answers must be approximations.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the 1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.

Mr. HUBERT. That was around 1938, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the place at which you worked?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand Concourse.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years. Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then we come back again.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Or employers?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many years.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were the other two people that you went with?

Mr. SENATOR. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I can’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or 20 years?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As a matter of fact, I think even before the war.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other one?

Mr. SENATOR. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work is he doing?

Mr. SENATOR. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean. He was.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how, that is 6 years ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down there for a vacation there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you looked him up?

Mr. SENATOR. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him he was in the stationery end.

Mr. HUBERT. How extended was your visit with him then?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two or three times.

Mr. HUBERT. No business relations?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went back to New York.

Mr. HUBERT. And tell us again——

Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at various times.

Mr. HUBERT. Your brother?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. SENATOR. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I worked on and off at his place many times.

Mr. HUBERT. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were working for your brother?

Mr. SENATOR. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany, N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square Cafeteria.

Mr. HUBERT. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be possible.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you enlist?

Mr. SENATOR. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.

Mr. HUBERT. That was before Pearl Harbor then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the summer of 1940?

Mr. SENATOR. What is that?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until you entered into the service in August of 1941?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe I was back home with my brother.

Mr. HUBERT. That is working for him?

Mr. SENATOR. The restaurant, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it.

Mr. HUBERT. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated copy.

Mr. SENATOR. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original and I am happy that I have got that.

Mr. HUBERT. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center, Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; when I came out.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then after you left the service in September of 1945, where did you go and what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost our shirts.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the Denise Foods, Inc.?

Mr. SENATOR. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?

Mr. HUBERT. 254 West 35th Street.

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That is why I asked you.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and this man you talked about?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of 1946?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say approximately about that to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. And where did you live then?

Mr. SENATOR. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married before that or after that.

Mr. HUBERT. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you got married?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the lady you married?

Mr. SENATOR. Sherley Baren.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. SENATOR. B-a-r-e-n.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you still married to her?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When? Approximately.

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say approximately about that.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you lived together as man and wife approximately for 10 years?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long. Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Before the divorce?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I think that is it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any children of that marriage?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. He is now 16 years old?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. SENATOR. Bobby.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you divorced?

Mr. SENATOR. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?

Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.

Mr. HUBERT. She brought the divorce suit?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Has she remarried?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to whom?

Mr. SENATOR. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they live?

Mr. SENATOR. Coral Gables.

Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?

Mr. SENATOR. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. At these jobs, do you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Or Miami?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a rough guess, something like that, offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got there; is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. Restaurant-type work.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that your social security records indicate that you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year. Can you explain that?

Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second quarters——

Mr. SENATOR. Of 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of 1948 there were no earnings reported.

Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January, February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That was an open stand on the oceanfront.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the first 6 months?

Mr. SENATOR. At the Hensroost?

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1947.

Mr. SENATOR. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I know that I worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the intervening year that I would like to have you cover.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that was.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory. Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year, but I remember going, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went there for one summer.

Mr. HUBERT. For the season?

Mr. SENATOR. The season; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife went with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. She stayed in Miami?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you finished the season there, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year was that, 1940-what?

Mr. HUBERT. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate that you worked for T-A Troops.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long? Do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?

Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace.

Mr. HUBERT. Miami Beach?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Miami.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On Collins Avenue?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You lived in Miami City itself?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with your wife then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your next move was?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right.

Mr. HUBERT. Women’s apparel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because apparently you did?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I went to Texas?

Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas, did you?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You did?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. So you moved to Texas in 1954?

Mr. SENATOR. May of 1954.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. The social security records indicate 1951.

Mr. SENATOR. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be 1951.

Mr. HUBERT. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you live in Milwaukee?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And in Chicago?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words——

Mr. SENATOR. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when they called the people in for sales meetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?

Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.

Mr. HUBERT. That same residence?

Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your area, sales area?

Mr. SENATOR. Florida.

Mr. HUBERT. Just Florida?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You sold women’s apparel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?

Mr. SENATOR. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as 144 East Flagler in Miami.

Mr. SENATOR. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for both?

Mr. SENATOR. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the Christmas holidays only.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. These records also indicate that actually you worked for Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. SENATOR. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex., and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you remember the year, the month?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. 1954?

Mr. SENATOR. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10 years I have been there.

Mr. HUBERT. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in May of 1954, on a Friday?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, May 15, I think you said.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.

Mr. HUBERT. Did your wife go with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been living together up to that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the cause of your separation?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is.

Mr. HUBERT. She never did go to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.

Mr. HUBERT. She kept the child?

Mr. SENATOR. She kept the child.

Mr. HUBERT. And still has it?

Mr. SENATOR. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a possibility.

Mr. HUBERT. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to work, I take it, for Smoler’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various places where you lived?

Mr. SENATOR. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels, from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your territory there?

Mr. SENATOR. Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. The whole of Texas?

Mr. SENATOR. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only part of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that comes a little later.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your various addresses just roughly.

Mr. SENATOR. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it an apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was an apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with a couple other boys.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?

Mr. SENATOR. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.

Mr. HUBERT. He played the instrument called the xylophone?

Mr. SENATOR. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What is the one that is made out of wood?

Mr. HUBERT. Marimba?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?

Mr. HUBERT. As a musical instrument?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. A percussion instrument?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he work?

Mr. SENATOR. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked locally, out of town.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the other one?

Mr. SENATOR. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name was Mort Seder.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you maintained contact with either of those?

Mr. SENATOR. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale by the sea.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the other one?

Mr. SENATOR. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would probably say in the last 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him often prior to that?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you lived together initially?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then lived together after that?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place. He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that time. So we lived together.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that place?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence at the McKinney Street address.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that broke up?

Mr. SENATOR. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to another place.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. That was on Shadyside Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a year, with a guess again, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is you and Seder?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Seder.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from there?

Mr. SENATOR. Columbia Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a couple of years. I’m not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. You were still with Seder then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.

Mr. HUBERT. So he left you, as it were?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?

Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m trying to figure where I went from there.

Mr. HUBERT. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether you then——

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed there for a while alone?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I had my own place.

Mr. HUBERT. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or were you alone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think where, though.

Mr. HUBERT. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived with?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an apartment house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places. They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe that is where I moved next.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you share that apartment with?

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what year. Do you have a listing of it?

Mr. HUBERT. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July of 1958.

Mr. SENATOR. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have been living there yet. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last place was at the Oasis.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?

Mr. SENATOR. Where I moved to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all over, if I recall right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working with Smoler’s then?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember if I——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of 1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting from July of 1958 until apparently——

Mr. SENATOR. July of 1958?

Mr. HUBERT. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas. That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were doing and where you were living?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do the best you can.

Mr. SENATOR. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you moved to the Oasis?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. HUBERT. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was, you got on the road.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds, and then I finally got back with Rhea again.

Mr. HUBERT. R-h-e-a?

Mr. SENATOR. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.

Mr. HUBERT. Milwaukee?

Mr. SENATOR. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I was unemployed.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying normal expenses?

Mr. SENATOR. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. All that period?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the 3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?

Mr. SENATOR. January of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent nature other than in Dallas any place else?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that even though you were traveling during those years, doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?

Mr. SENATOR. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I used to help him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. SENATOR. His name is George Hamrah.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it?

Mr. SENATOR. H-a-m-r-a-h.

Mr. HUBERT. He still lives in Houston?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he still lives in Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the Oasis on?

Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.

Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes, I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.

Mr. HUBERT. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers in the Oasis.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with at the Oasis.

Mr. SENATOR. I gave you the names——

Mr. HUBERT. Of two of them, as I recall.

Mr. SENATOR. Of one apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his name was Frank Irwin.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen them in the last few years?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter part of last year.

Mr. HUBERT. Even the man whose name you don’t know?

Mr. SENATOR. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back to it.

Mr. SENATOR. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I just can’t put my finger——

Mr. HUBERT. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At various apartments?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with Jack Ruby; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was Ruby living then?

Mr. SENATOR. Ruby was living at the Marsalla—

Mr. HUBERT. Palace?

Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch of apartments there.

Mr. HUBERT. Marsalla South?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been Marsalla South.

Mr. HUBERT. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla, Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. It was on Marsalis Street?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with Jack then?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to 6 months; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else live there with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; just Jack and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion for your leaving him?

Mr. SENATOR. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard business.

Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in Dallas; did you not?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live after you left Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. After I left who?

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that would have been around in September.

Mr. SENATOR. August.

Mr. HUBERT. August of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; August.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?

Mr. SENATOR. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was that apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. That was on Maple Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Why I moved?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Please run that back again.

Mr. HUBERT. I say I judge from what you have said that the real reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a job selling postcards?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is not necessarily it; no.

Mr. HUBERT. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club, and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.

Mr. HUBERT. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living conditions as you have indicated?

Mr. SENATOR. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to go with Corbat, and you did?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay with Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine, Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about when?

Mr. SENATOR. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.

Mr. HUBERT. But he moved later than you, didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, see, I moved in first.

Mr. HUBERT. With Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right after that.

Mr. HUBERT. He moved in with you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was in November of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. When did Ruby move in?

Mr. SENATOR. He moved in around that same time.

Mr. HUBERT. But after you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably say, something like that, within that week.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you stayed there until when?

Mr. SENATOR. The unfateful day.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there until August.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out——

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August 8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.

Mr. HUBERT. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the first week in November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, would you state for the record what was the number of the apartment you and Corbat had?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Room number?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on South Ewing.

Mr. SENATOR. 223 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I want to get that in the record.

Mr. SENATOR. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. They were next to one another, or opposite?

Mr. SENATOR. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. And they are numbered in sequence?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207, something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a couple years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing when you last saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. What does he do?

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing then?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.

Mr. HUBERT. What about James Young?

Mr. SENATOR. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance corporation called Warner.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City, and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What time?

Mr. SENATOR. At night.

Mr. HUBERT. No; what day?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. What time of the year, what month?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I think it was in December.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. I think so, in December 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. When had you seen him prior to that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a couple years, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third man——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you remember his name now?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack Loftus.

Mr. HUBERT. L-o-f-t-u-s?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in Hillsboro, if he is still there.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in Hillsboro.

Mr. HUBERT. Texas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that, but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This part I do remember.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the same day you saw Young?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They were looking for you for what reason?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking for you?

Mr. SENATOR. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them, you know, for a while. Nothing particular.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the apartment with Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was national news.

Mr. SENATOR. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident somehow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw them?

Mr. SENATOR. These two boys?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?

Mr. SENATOR. Before?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since you had seen Loftus?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving, Frank Irwin.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the friend’s name?

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Irwin.

Mr. HUBERT. I-r-w-i-n?

Mr. SENATOR. I-r-w-i-n, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SENATOR. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he knew him casually.

Mr. HUBERT. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Stanley Corbat know him?

Mr. SENATOR. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him. But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.

Mr. HUBERT. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out of the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he living now, in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on Munger Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come in contact with him, socially?

Mr. SENATOR. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across him once in a delicatessen.

Mr. HUBERT. Just once?

Mr. SENATOR. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact, I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.

Mr. HUBERT. What does he do?

Mr. SENATOR. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s budget dresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which department store?

Mr. SENATOR. Titche.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.

Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by way of charges?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they charge you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I had nothing to sober up with.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they follow up with any charges?

Mr. SENATOR. No; we were fined $15.

Mr. HUBERT. You were fined?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was $15.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only time?

Mr. SENATOR. The only time in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever been arrested?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There have been no other charges?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?

Mr. SENATOR. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. During the war?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?

Mr. SENATOR. Professional?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any gambling houses?

Mr. SENATOR. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.

Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or something like that?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What other recreation did we have? So we gambled.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from July of 1958 until the first of 1962.

Mr. SENATOR. What years?

Mr. HUBERT. According to the records, there were no earnings reported for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.

When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t file.

Mr. HUBERT. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.

You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was with Rhea.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose your job there?

Mr. SENATOR. With Smoler Brothers?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy with them.

First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow over that.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done considerably better?

Mr. SENATOR. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?

You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s, you go to Rhea’s——

Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you know that were nothing to speak of.

Mr. HUBERT. Here is what I want to get at.

Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about that.

Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it.

Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed, extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three, two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and they kept me for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not pay any part of the rent?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?

Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and Rhea?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think there was much time between them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say, 3 months?

Mr. SENATOR. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while, which didn’t last too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Doing the same kind of work?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, doing the same kind of work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Covering territory?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them long and I wasn’t making any money with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What company was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were with them?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4 months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a straight commission with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No, a draw against commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A draw against commission?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for next?

Mr. SENATOR. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know I did some odd things. I was with Rhea——

Mr. HUBERT. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you get into other lines?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I worked for Rhea.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did the Rhea employment last?

Mr. SENATOR. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half, I’m not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money off of that?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a draw part.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have enough money then to pay your fair share?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was——

Mr. HUBERT. So when you are talking about the handouts——

Mr. SENATOR. The handouts is when I was completely out.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any employment at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I was completely out.

Mr. HUBERT. That was for about a year, year and a half?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any money?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not contributing?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Ruby gave me handouts.

Mr. HUBERT. That is right?

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly.

Mr. HUBERT. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is it not, roughly?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9 months, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?

Mr. SENATOR. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first moved in with him, because I had no money.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you got——

Mr. SENATOR. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on a 50-50 basis.

Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved to South Ewing?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was in August of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you making money at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in the postcards.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what business? What company is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. I was sales manager, whatever that means.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962 until November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of November?

Mr. SENATOR. The latter part of November.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you making then?

Mr. SENATOR. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.

Mr. HUBERT. That was your actual draw?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In cash?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Roughly $250 a month?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.

Mr. HUBERT. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute; you had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby, because you say that that employment——

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no; you mean prior to——

Mr. HUBERT. To the shooting.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were still working with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were still drawing that pay?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I am referring to the first time.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. You were living in another place?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby; that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were——

Mr. SENATOR. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.

Mr. HUBERT. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move in, so I moved in.

Mr. HUBERT. And were you supposed to pay any part?

Mr. SENATOR. With Jack, no.

Mr. HUBERT. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up during a week night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this Rhea Manufacturing Co.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they do? What did they make?

Mr. SENATOR. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about that business with Smoler Bros.?

Mr. SENATOR. The type business?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year, you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer for the following season?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out. Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we want to know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters, seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would that be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you always on a draw right along?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there some periods during each year when you did not earn your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that you did not earn your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did not earn your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or there may have been times when I fell even behind.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of New York State is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Are you familiar with Albany?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You are familiar with Schenectady?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. How about Amsterdam?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.

Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off the beaten path a bit from your main lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is upstate New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills of the Adirondacks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go to New Hampshire?

Mr. SENATOR. I needed a job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go there?

Mr. SENATOR. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name of it again?

Mr. HUBERT. The Hensroost.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go on.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10 years ago, that you moved to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or take a few.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.

Mr. SENATOR. How I met him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else walked in, Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how your friendship or acquaintance developed?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know; it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi, George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first meeting?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him; having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago as casual?

Mr. SENATOR. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere else.

Mr. HUBERT. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately developed, in any case.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go to the Vegas very much?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what brought that about?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. (Brief recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You understand that?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. SENATOR. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to have a lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get it straight.

Mr. SENATOR. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?

Mr. SENATOR. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember actually when that opened?

Mr. SENATOR. Which?

Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or 6 months?

Mr. SENATOR. That it changed to the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?

Mr. SENATOR. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things?

Mr. SENATOR. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words, you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts, singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease performance?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had the Sovereign Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any of those?

Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend who was a member or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more attractive to you than some of the other clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say “Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. SENATOR. As of recent?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and Jack would let you in.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the manager, who the manager was at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Abe Weinstein?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I know him casually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited his clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many times.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from there.

Mr. SENATOR. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature, he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from another source?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I told him I was down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask to go in with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Carousel you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck them he has really got something to buck.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was having difficulties and you were too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that situation go on?

Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.

Mr. HUBERT. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment which he then had?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I say.

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he gave you cash?

Mr. SENATOR. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money or he would just take me.

Mr. HUBERT. Just do what?

Mr. SENATOR. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. But then he did get an apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long after that.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that apartment with him?

Mr. SENATOR. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow he got this apartment on South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. On South Ewing?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Marsalis.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved in with him right away?

Mr. SENATOR. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it together but I know I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to pay any rent?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but I helped him in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What kind of work did you do at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d take cash for him.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is on the front door?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; on the front door.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the $2 admission charge?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. And what other jobs did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He had a clean-up boy.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. SENATOR. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first went there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until the time the club closed down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?

Mr. SENATOR. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the apartment house.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me up, I had to do something, see.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I had in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave at the same time that he did?

Mr. SENATOR. I would leave when he left.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you were both going back to the same house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about going there? You went earlier?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in the apartment longer than I could.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you normally go to work then?

Mr. SENATOR. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.

Mr. HUBERT. You never had to go in midafternoon though?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andrew get there?

Mr. SENATOR. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around 1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I guess, maybe a little longer.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions and so you moved in with Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of 1963—is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack then?

Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up with Corbat.

Mr. SENATOR. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there. At rare times I would help him at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had a job then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the door, things of that kind.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with Corbat, is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.

Mr. SENATOR. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got along excepting when he hollered at me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a wagon.

Mr. HUBERT. A station wagon?

Mr. SENATOR. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a passenger car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in the back, the back part.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the company.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time to time. How often about, just roughly?

Mr. SENATOR. Two or three times a week. It all depends.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would help there?

Mr. SENATOR. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. If you helped did he pay you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the things he did for me, when I was down and out.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I think we have covered the time when Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment next door.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had the automobile until January.

Mr. HUBERT. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with these people until after Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But at the stress of the——

Mr. SENATOR. But the stresses.

Mr. HUBERT. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you owned an automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in.

Mr. HUBERT. You traded it in for what?

Mr. SENATOR. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4 or 5 years?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose. You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new car.

Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is it. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind. You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what year?

Mr. SENATOR. 1964.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a couple of months ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when you moved in with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of November, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general mode of living and working with him that had existed before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with him, so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in maybe on a weekday.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your operation——

Mr. SENATOR. Just at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not like it was before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Not on a daily basis?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just at night, not every night?

Mr. SENATOR. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were still at your job?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. There was no food. The only food there was, they make pizzas once in a while.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the apartment.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny guy in cooking.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any cooking there at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs, it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook for.

Mr. HUBERT. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.

Mr. HUBERT. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship. You had a regular working day I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other hand, would be sleeping in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got back at night or before, as a normal thing?

Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5 and 6 because many times I stayed out.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in point of time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.

Mr. HUBERT. What about weekends? Was that different?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before he does, whether I am working or otherwise.

Mr. HUBERT. You would help him at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about the same time he did?

Mr. SENATOR. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning, I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that I get up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular rising time?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at 10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What about on weekends?

Mr. SENATOR. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of coffee and go to work?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee. I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?

Mr. SENATOR. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those are the three places I normally was always in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot where I eat lunch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do about dinners?

Mr. SENATOR. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack, because I just can’t cook of his nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?

Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe; on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the shopping?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t shop for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?

Mr. SENATOR. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like it that is too bad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits, unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was there some difference in your relationship?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any particular evening what the meal was going to be?

Mr. SENATOR. I had no say. I had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was coming back for dinner?

Mr. SENATOR. No; no call; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would?

Mr. SENATOR. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you wanted to do?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set pattern. There was no particular time.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from all this, from the fact that your acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew something about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. He had enough of them.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?

Mr. SENATOR. He had a few dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. All the time that you have known him was that so or when did that begin?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is about 2½ years ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know anything about the dogs?

Mr. SENATOR. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba, who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. So he kept them.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep them?

Mr. SENATOR. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which everybody in this country knows.

Mr. HUBERT. She was the mother?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up with——

Mr. HUBERT. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?

Mr. SENATOR. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Sheba was always with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.

Mr. HUBERT. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs. Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a normal attitude that people have to dogs?

Mr. SENATOR. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no meaning when he says this.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. SENATOR. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior to. No; it had to be prior.

Mr. HUBERT. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Since the shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there other people that you remember who commented to you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he was——

Mr. SENATOR. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one was “my wife,” which absolutely has——

Mr. HUBERT. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was after, see.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?

Mr. SENATOR. The remarks were made after, that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were made after?

Mr. SENATOR. After.

Mr. HUBERT. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were supposed to have occurred prior?

Mr. SENATOR. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these animals?

Mr. SENATOR. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of years.

Mr. HUBERT. There was nothing abnormal about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog may be.

Mr. HUBERT. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.

Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?

Mr. SENATOR. That he would have?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel that way?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim 2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any ice skating?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, we were ice skating once.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he good at it?

Mr. SENATOR. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because he had never been on ice skates before.

Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked me to go, too, and did I suffer.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with, you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been on ice skates, including his age.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things, weightlifters.

Mr. HUBERT. Weightlifting equipment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He had them in the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general physical condition?

Mr. SENATOR. Excellent.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a powerful man?

Mr. SENATOR. A powerful man?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he tangled with people?

Mr. SENATOR. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a couple of people.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean between him and other people.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those, would you?

Mr. SENATOR. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him, because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you just tell us about those.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you one.

Mr. HUBERT. About where they happened and the time.

Mr. SENATOR. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one. Do you want it in the club or out of the club?

Mr. HUBERT. Any one.

Mr. SENATOR. This was outside of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it?

Mr. SENATOR. Last year.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time last year?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.

Mr. HUBERT. The summer of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the Burgundy Room is?

Mr. HUBERT. The Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with this fellow here.

Mr. HUBERT. Who, what fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. His name?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Don Taber or Tabin.

Mr. HUBERT. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with that man?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some girl and went over to talk to her.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were alone at the table?

Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Who came in?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know, and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other, I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?

Mr. HUBERT. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.

Mr. SENATOR. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.

Mr. HUBERT. Go what?

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to use the word?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. He told him to go —— himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told who?

Mr. SENATOR. Don to Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Told that to Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean when Jack came in?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Taber or Tabin told him that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there had been no previous conversation between them?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason or other.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit him?

Mr. SENATOR. He hit him.

Mr. HUBERT. With his fist or what?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any knucks?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or pistol?

Mr. SENATOR. It was his fist, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. So they got into a little battle.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So they actually squared off?

Mr. SENATOR. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he knocked off his feet?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a big man, this Taber?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And how tall?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and weight?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. And weighed what?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did he have much fat?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it. But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous back.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he fast with his fists?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say for his age he was.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw this battle with Taber?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was pretty fast.

Mr. HUBERT. And he definitely got the best of him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the other occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be around the side and all I caught is the tail end.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when?

Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he knock the man off his feet?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? He told you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this the opinion that is generally held?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of some nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew about from having observed them yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen that often?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Like throwing them down the stairs?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.

The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat them up.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer?

Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I remember right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did?

Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case what is the truth?

Mr. SENATOR. What did I answer him?

Mr. HUBERT. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth as to that question.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I answered him.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, all right; tell us that first.

Mr. SENATOR. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size, something like that I answered him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your opinion now, too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you base that opinion on what?

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that is not so?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion right now?

Mr. SENATOR. How do I form that opinion?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size don’t mean anything to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to anything?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never witnessed any.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?

Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut. His cut much more off than mine.

Mr. HUBERT. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?

Mr. SENATOR. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?

Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about it?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never witnessed anything of this nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you an opinion?

Mr. SENATOR. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t know what I was guessing at.

Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.

Mr. SENATOR. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was formed I think you told us from your general knowledge.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?

Mr. SENATOR. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type of man who would do that in your opinion?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so. Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would be that brutal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but there was no kicking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped. But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody pull him off?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at the tail end of it.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words, it is going up a flight of steps.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the =L= shape of it I didn’t see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were thrown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this last?

Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or two blows and that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in and break that up?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he knocked him down with that blow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?

Mr. SENATOR. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is about using his fists?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair evaluation.

Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?

Mr. SENATOR. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?

Mr. SENATOR. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man thinks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know that much about him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To be able to say that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the way to solve the problem at that particular point.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of steam on this guy.

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe this is something that just went off instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it could have been.

Mr. HUBERT. You have indicated along here in your testimony, particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that was your phrase?

Mr. SENATOR. Agree.

Mr. HUBERT. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like that.

Mr. SENATOR. He could have a pretty fast temper.

Mr. HUBERT. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing——

Mr. SENATOR. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about——

Mr. SENATOR. Hollered at me, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there should have been discussion about something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler at me and flare up at me.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “make wrong”?

Mr. SENATOR. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would say no it is white and that is it.

Mr. HUBERT. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?

Mr. SENATOR. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it.

Mr. HUBERT. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would get over it that fast from me.

Mr. HUBERT. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would describe it as anger, manifested——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while.

Mr. SENATOR. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he wouldn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that——

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off. He didn’t like that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say he would calm down right away?

Mr. SENATOR. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them “Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all times.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give us examples of that?

Mr. SENATOR. I can give you examples of myself on that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have described?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he would holler at me.

Mr. HUBERT. Then it would be all over.

Mr. SENATOR. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he would tone down.

Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take?

Mr. SENATOR. A matter of a minute or two.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject and be quite his normal self again?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you. Whatever it might be I can’t be right.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the way he treated you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that Jack owned a pair of knuckles?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he bought them?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn that he had them?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a cloth sack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that sack?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in the sack?

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see, Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money, which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in all different pockets.

Mr. HUBERT. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You shake your head. What does that mean?

Mr. SENATOR. He is not a drinker.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.

Mr. HUBERT. How about smoking?

Mr. SENATOR. No smoking whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward women?

Mr. SENATOR. Like any other man.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say any other normal man?

Mr. SENATOR. Any other normal man.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you the possibility of homosexuality?

Mr. SENATOR. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. On his part?

Mr. SENATOR. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?

Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he lisp?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. So do I.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack has a lisp?

Mr. SENATOR. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Just as normal as any human being.

Mr. HUBERT. He was single.

Mr. SENATOR. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never been married, Hyman.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any girl friends?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went out with various girls.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex relationships.

Mr. SENATOR. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch wherever he may be.

Mr. HUBERT. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would throw light upon that.

Mr. SENATOR. He likes women.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. How do I know he likes women?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I like women.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?

Mr. SENATOR. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think this is a normal thing to say.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?

Mr. SENATOR. This here I’m never around.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we can leave that off.

Mr. SENATOR. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else talks to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This is when I turn out to be the cook.

Mr. HUBERT. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in your own mind?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?

Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some company or somebody over.

Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?

Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion. That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that nature?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at his club, I mean the waitresses?

Mr. SENATOR. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly business.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong statement?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that expressed many a time.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about that statement?

Mr. SENATOR. It definitely is a wrong statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it.

Mr. SENATOR. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all, he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What the conversations are I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate character?

Mr. SENATOR. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?

Mr. SENATOR. The girls working in the club?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?

Mr. HUBERT. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them then I would ask you to explain the difference.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Something must have happened that leads you to that opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would certainly have done something about it?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody outside using any of his girls.

Mr. HUBERT. You yourself have heard him say that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of relations with people who were in the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Beyond the area?

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the club or customers.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with people who were not patrons of the club?

Mr. SENATOR. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know. First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all, where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a couple of M.C.’s already.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?

Mr. SENATOR. As far as going to church, synagogue?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, Jewish holidays?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; always.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?

Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question because I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you lived with him.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you lived with him did he ever indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?

Mr. SENATOR. They go on Friday nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the important holidays.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider him to be a religious man?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that he observes as to holidays.

Mr. HUBERT. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was either religious or not religious.

Mr. SENATOR. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday. He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does observe those things.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?

Mr. SENATOR. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a good time for recess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever participating in any activities, Jewish activities?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. B’nai B’rith?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the synagogue’s men’s clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment you have to make about that.

Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean by that that you don’t know?

Mr. SENATOR. Break down when you say political issues.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs as they were developing?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?

Mr. SENATOR. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban crisis in 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. He never discussed these.

Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have read that.

Mr. HUBERT. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that sort of thing at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much. He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course, I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as reflected by newspapers and other news media.

I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his interest was towards topics of the day of international import.

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international incident?

Mr. SENATOR. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t. I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we say, about subjects of that nature?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I remember that distinctly.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he saw that on TV?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who writes a column in New York.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can remember any discussion with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. At all?

Mr. SENATOR. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember any such discussions?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole, of his interest in international affairs?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his character, that is all.

Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind of ism.

Mr. SENATOR. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the time we saw the billboards.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was——

Mr. SENATOR. The impeachment of——

Mr. HUBERT. After the President was——

Mr. SENATOR. Right; this was the time that I saw——

Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him interested in a matter of that nature?

Mr. SENATOR. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it.

(The previous question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. HUBERT. Can you answer that question?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t get that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned that one incident.

Mr. SENATOR. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the country he lives in. He was never——

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be called Americanism.

Mr. SENATOR. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.

Mr. HUBERT. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that caused you to form that opinion?

You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am asking you to say.

Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or attitudes?

Mr. SENATOR. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as I take it that I know that I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on the other hand you don’t know about somebody else.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very fond of the city he lived in.

Mr. HUBERT. And how do you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas, he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city like New York or Chicago or California.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And, of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.

Mr. HUBERT. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume that everybody loves their country.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Unless there is something to the contrary.

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask some questions along that line.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area, pick up from notes I have been making.

Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any political candidates for local office in Texas?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like that, political-wise or anything of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political sort that would be other than newspaper literature?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society and Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. SENATOR. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought it on the way home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper rather than a Dallas paper?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth, I assume.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t even think he could understand it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Time magazine, Newsweek?

Mr. SENATOR. I never seen any magazines come in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any magazines around the house?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a radio?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV or listening to the radio?

Mr. SENATOR. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those?

Mr. SENATOR. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever stories there might be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the movies?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a radio in his car?

Mr. SENATOR. He had, what do you call those little things?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Transistor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; transistor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean put in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know.

Mr. SENATOR. He had it put in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. A car radio.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; installed with the car?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?

Mr. SENATOR. No; just a radio that came with the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. FM or anything like that?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it, and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or shortwave?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it could or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a radio was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there was a clock and the other side was a radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.

Mr. SENATOR. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the automobile and the radio——

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me.

Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on or not?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally he would not put it on?

Mr. SENATOR. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he laid it on the seat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he play it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he put on the music.

Mr. HUBERT. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead of turning on the radio in the automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it on and play the music.

Mr. HUBERT. He would play the transistor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car radio was not working.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his finances, and his banking and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now, if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he carry it?

Mr. SENATOR. In ready cash.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?

Mr. SENATOR. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I don’t think he knew where he had it half the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here, here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets.

Mr. SENATOR. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me “George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his money.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the Carousel at night and you would go home?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of that night?

Mr. SENATOR. In his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag. Did you ever see that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close to me.

Mr. HUBERT. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all, about his handling of it.

Mr. SENATOR. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?

Mr. SENATOR. The bag? In the trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. In the trunk of the car?

Mr. SENATOR. While going home.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw it in the trunk of the car?

Mr. SENATOR. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about it.

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with him, this is why he always had the gun with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he keep the gun on his body?

Mr. SENATOR. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a holster for the gun?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep it?

Mr. SENATOR. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise, about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other words, as far as you know?

Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is from what he told you, or did he say anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything.

Mr. HUBERT. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it was before me even, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she really was the owner?

Mr. SENATOR. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it was like hers.

Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?

Mr. SENATOR. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying there so long.

Mr. HUBERT. How do they get along?

Mr. SENATOR. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure you she can holler too.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t quite understand.

Mr. SENATOR. For me the further away the better. In other words, I shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is——

Mr. SENATOR. I am not happy over the fights.

Mr. HUBERT. My question is how frequently it happened.

Mr. SENATOR. How frequent I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it began you would want to get away, is that the idea?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is something that is flickering.

He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never want to work for her.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel? Do you know anything about that, who owned that?

Mr. SENATOR. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he had a partner in the Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Joe Slayton was it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is it, Joe Slayton.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign entirely?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean after Slayton left.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.

Mr. HUBERT. Connected by way of ownership?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he owned half or what it was I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. On what facts do you base that?

Mr. SENATOR. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What part he owned I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What facts make you state that you know he had something to do with it? There must be something that occurred again.

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that club somehow.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that Ralph Paul owned part of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack, there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or ownership?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course, this is after this whole deal happened.

Mr. HUBERT. The shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. SENATOR. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He was part owner of that place.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?

Mr. SENATOR. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I mean I can’t specifically remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right away, as soon as Jack was in jail?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how much Jack owned.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words, I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in it?

Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible interest in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Earl?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all this happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him before that?

Mr. SENATOR. Never seen him before in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Sam?

Mr. SENATOR. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They always used to come to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who they were?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come frequently?

Mr. SENATOR. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or police in uniforms.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of entertainment?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost? He gave them that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the nature of it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They didn’t pay that, if they came socially?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been on the door yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any instructions on that?

Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t pay entry.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay for drinks?

Mr. SENATOR. They had a special rate.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they may bring them.

So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a special price for drinks.

Mr. HUBERT. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage, they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.

In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups, whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that area, he always let them in free.

I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course, these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I think he rented it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that operation out there——

Mr. SENATOR. Not owning the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not talking about any real estate.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He had tables and chairs?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a piano maybe?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about ownership?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise or the things in the place, not only the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the right to get the profits if there were any? Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the profits, or did they share it in some way?

Mr. SENATOR. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of my—wasn’t any of my business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?

Mr. SENATOR. Either that or put them in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or put them in his pocket?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, whichever he saw fit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.

I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until 3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t tell me his moves where he is going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t there too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?

Mr. SENATOR. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be. It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know. It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork. I am only guessing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club every night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar with that part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his pockets?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?

Mr. SENATOR. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names. Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities Bank and Trust Company?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the National Bank of Commerce?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The American Bank and Trust Company?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mercantile National Bank?

Mr. SENATOR. No; see, if you can find one on—continue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the Industrial National Bank.

Mr. SENATOR. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not the Mercantile National Bank?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the other the Mercantile?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you only heard of one?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard of the Merchants.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the receipts from the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds at the Vegas were handled?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or what part Jack got of it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you were when you heard of the assassination?

Mr. SENATOR. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch, and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio we listened to.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in downtown Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was uptown.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen the Presidential parade?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t see it at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment about the President’s visit?

Mr. SENATOR. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning, you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the night before.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming the next day?

Mr. SENATOR. We talked about that. We talked about the President was coming in, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what he said.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we were happy that he was coming.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack was too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; coming into Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not, but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas generally, and his business in particular?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no comment on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the parade?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t mention that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously said in a statement that you saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then, you went to bed?

Mr. SENATOR. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning when he woke me up.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. He is at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were sleeping.

Mr. SENATOR. You are talking about Thursday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night—the President came in Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his usual routine.

Mr. HUBERT. You were asleep I guess when he got back?

Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of the President?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after the death?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home on Friday night at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What time?

Mr. SENATOR. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before I went home. I always buy a paper, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home then?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the President’s death at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to contact him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?

Mr. SENATOR. When I said “around”?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. SENATOR. Around town, no particular place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going from bar to bar?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was brooding, a sad affair.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment on Friday night before you got there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went home and went to bed.

Mr. SENATOR. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?”

Mr. HUBERT. A full-page ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?”

Mr. HUBERT. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw that before you saw Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. SENATOR. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. That was who?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?

Mr. SENATOR. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs. Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.”

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been drinking?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t drink.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he don’t drink, no.

Mr. HUBERT. And his remarks were concerning the children?

Mr. SENATOR. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for them.

Mr. HUBERT. What other comments did he make?

Mr. SENATOR. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren.

Mr. HUBERT. He said he had seen that poster?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had saw that poster.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he had noticed it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find out why, why that poster was up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had some experiences like that before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean you said some experiences where he got something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it up.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these things could happen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never had any experience of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t had any experience.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, this was a new experience for you.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he made me get dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He was telling me about this sign here.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want you to get dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?

Mr. SENATOR. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was after he told you to get dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after he told me first.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember, but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to you, we were looking at this ad.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was at the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally.

Mr. HUBERT. In the newspapers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep reading?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it on the floor before I went to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the ad prior to leaving the house?

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that we did look at that ad that night at another place.

Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that. What happened next then?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to where this billboard was.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you where it was beforehand?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the expressway.

Mr. HUBERT. Which expressway?

Mr. SENATOR. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and I know where the expressway is.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with these I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t express any?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he wanted three shots.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to take pictures of this?

Mr. SENATOR. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to find out. So from there we went down to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry go with you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To the post office, I mean.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at the post office?

Mr. SENATOR. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the ad”——

Mr. SENATOR. The paper ad.

Mr. HUBERT. The Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mr. HUBERT. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you previously stated that you weren’t sure?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he had wakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left, but you think now you must have?

Mr. SENATOR. We must have because we went to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why on this.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why on.

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Right; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office.

Mr. SENATOR. We went to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with what?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, that was in connection—going to the post office was in connection with the paper ad now.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it connected to the paper ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don’t recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there was such a box.

Mr. HUBERT. So did you go into the post office with him?

Mr. SENATOR. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that number on it. There was a lot of mail in there.

Now, of course, who it belonged to—we don’t know if it belonged to him or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who—I think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don’t remember the number.

He asked him who it is. The night man says, “I can’t give you any information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make a reply to that?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more?

Mr. SENATOR. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said “How do you get to the postmaster” or something of that nature. I am not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he annoyed with the clerk?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply annoyed with the ad, with both ads.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post office would assist him in whatever he had in mind?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked the telephone directory and couldn’t find this Bernard Weissman, who supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn’t have been local because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas telephone book.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him look it up. He merely told you that?

Mr. SENATOR. He merely told me that. I didn’t see him look it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office with you?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe he came into the post office. I have to guess on this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don’t know what the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street. I don’t know what the side street is.

Mr. HUBERT. Who went?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack, Larry, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. I would assume we stayed there—maybe about 15 minutes would be a rough guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why’s of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get the paper from?

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that he had read it before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can’t tell you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was obviously the second time.

Mr. SENATOR. He was very disturbed.

Mr. HUBERT. Or the third time.

Mr. SENATOR. He was very, very disturbed over both of these.

Mr. HUBERT. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion that you describe as a disturbed condition.

Mr. SENATOR. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you.

Mr. HUBERT. His voice was loud or low or different or what?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked at you. It just don’t look like the normal procedure.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in that condition before?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say—I don’t know how to put these conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye. I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to put it together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t catch that. What kind of a look?

Mr. SENATOR. A stare look; I don’t know. I can’t express it. I don’t know how to put it in words.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on Jack Ruby before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was noticeably so?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could notice it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it disturb you any?

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be concerned about the President’s death or the ad or what?

Mr. SENATOR. To me, I would probably say it must have been a combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the President, terribly.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you know that. How do you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I am not the only one who has seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average person that you know was disturbed about the President’s death?

Mr. SENATOR. All I know, while I can’t say about the average because all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can’t describe an average because there might be another individual of his nature, too, who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual?

Mr. HUBERT. In any case his reaction was such——

Mr. SENATOR. It was pretty well—you know, disturbed as I was and as disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him than it was with the others who I have seen.

Mr. HUBERT. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold of this newspaper ad and read it again—is that it—that is, in the coffeeshop?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he looked it over again.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment did he make, while reading it or after?

Mr. SENATOR. While reading it?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean his words, you understand, his exact words, but the meaning, the thoughts expressed.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the thoughts. He can’t understand it. It is so penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to do something like this.

Mr. HUBERT. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but he couldn’t understand why an ad like this should break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn’t understand why in the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally, that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was he seeming to do that?

Mr. SENATOR. He was seeming to do at that time—he was seeming to do with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn’t understand why these things were of a nature—I don’t know how long this billboard has been out. I don’t know if it has been a day, two, or what it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy was coming in. He wanted to know the whys.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Run that again.

Mr. HUBERT. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster, the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the President’s visit?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad, that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which I did hear him say, “This is the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.”

Mr. HUBERT. What is the work of those two; the death of the President?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. The publication of these signs?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was behind the death of the President?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t indicate that.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with the President’s death?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that part.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things, the poster and ad, should come out at the same time?

Mr. SENATOR. Now, mind you, I don’t know if they come out at the same time, because the billboard, I don’t know if that thing was there a day or a week.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was associating the two of those together?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between those two?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he couldn’t understand why the Dallas Morning News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper.

Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested in any way that his thinking associated the assassination of the President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any other group?

Mr. SENATOR. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was talking about the signs.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, the poster and the ad?

Mr. SENATOR. The poster and the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in the coffeeshop?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t think there was anybody in there at that time outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or the waitress?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall?

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if he had any or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. What did it mean?

Mr. HUBERT. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you tried to calm him down?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be spoken to by a friend and calmed down?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know. It is hard for me to say these things. Who would really know?

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you didn’t argue with him about his view?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t argue with him at any time.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not state a concurring view, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or an opposing view?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did Larry?

Mr. SENATOR. Larry I can’t speak for because I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else or anyone else spoke to him?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you all do next?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to do with the photographs that he took?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all of that, and I believe those pictures were with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you——

Mr. SENATOR. At least I assumed the pictures were with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him, out to the sign?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That was covered.

Mr. SENATOR. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all go then?

Mr. SENATOR. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up and went to bed, up at the club. Then we went home.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any further discussion at all between you and Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. It was about what time of the morning when you got back?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am guessing the time.

Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark, wasn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know, sort of lighting up a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Go on.

Mr. SENATOR. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the episodes of the day, if I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when we came back to the apartment?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. The same time. We went at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long a period?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you all went to bed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he did or not?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went to bed. I assumed——

Mr. HUBERT. You were in a different room from him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still asleep; you know, later on.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say I must have woke up around, I don’t know, 10 o’clock, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning. I would say something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. He was still asleep?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke him up.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the telephone in that apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. In the living room, but it had a long wire.

Mr. HUBERT. But the ringing sound came from the actual machine itself? The ring would be where the phone was located?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the living room?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in the living room.

Mr. HUBERT. How far from your bedroom was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t——

Mr. HUBERT. As close as his?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or something like that, 12 feet, I don’t know what the extension is, but where it was at that moment I don’t know. I assumed that it was on the table. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he normally take it in his room?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he could get it all the way in his room. You see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take it in mine, but I don’t think I could take it in his, or he might be able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don’t think it would extend that far.

Mr. HUBERT. If the phone machine was in the living room where it normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone wakened you?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say “No” on that because I am always up before he is.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have wakened you?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I just don’t recollect. I wouldn’t say he did or didn’t have one because I just don’t remember if he did have one.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember if he had one?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did not awaken you, that there was no phone call?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote because I don’t know if there was a phone call.

Mr. HUBERT. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have awakened you?

Mr. SENATOR. I would assume so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since the President was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done since the President had been shot?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he went to the—wait, I don’t remember if he told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any recollection.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember, but I do know that he had told me that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don’t remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don’t remember which time it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up the next morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack up?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was sleeping.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes. He was still home when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he awake?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is where I had left off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. That is why I stopped.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process of your waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened him. How long did you stay around the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning you are referring to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; after awakening.

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you, somewhere around, maybe somewheres between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course, I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour off.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say that.

Mr. HUBERT. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He awoke after.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in between?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned—of course, he wasn’t feeling good when he woke up—he had mentioned the fact, he sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a poor tragic thing like this to happen to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t with him. That was Friday night.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. No; this I already knew.

Mr. HUBERT. You already knew?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you find that out?

Mr. SENATOR. Friday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?

Mr. SENATOR. The ad in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. That is how you first saw it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is how I knew. That was an ad at the same time——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him at any time, either on Friday night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and the reason therefor?

Mr. SENATOR. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there at a time such as this.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that he put an ad In the paper Friday night that the club would be closed for 3 days?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what time because I assume he put it in sometime Friday afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for 3 days?

Mr. SENATOR. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. About the ad?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Being closed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I told him that I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was his comment, or query?

Mr. SENATOR. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his ad, because he didn’t feel they should be open on account of the simple reason of the tragedy that happened, where they should be having entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn’t think it was the right thing to do at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them if they did not close also?

Mr. SENATOR. That it would hurt their business?

Mr. HUBERT. The other business, his competitors?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know about that, but I assumed, of course, I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also closed that day. I think Neiman Marcus closed. I believe in that downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close?

Mr. SENATOR. How could he when he ran an ad?

Mr. HUBERT. I mean for the Friday night.

Mr. SENATOR. To keep them from knowing?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to close.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. SENATOR. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the opening of the other competitors?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I never saw him that day.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t indicate to you as a matter of fact that he would like to see them open while he was closed?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In grief over the President?

Mr. SENATOR. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at any other time.

Mr. SENATOR. You are referring to the individuals in the city of Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. The business principally.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. If he said it I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment upon that at all?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I just don’t remember. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to the condition that you have already described on Friday night?

Mr. SENATOR. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what happened, and apparently this had never left his mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. SENATOR. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and of the family, what would happen to the family.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier that morning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation over the advertisement seemed to have passed away?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t comment on it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember him commenting on it.

Mr. HUBERT. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than what it was the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. What he thought I still don’t know about that.

Mr. HUBERT. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to the poster and to the ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now what happened——

Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed was his feeling of sorrow as to the President’s family.

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; which was working on him pretty good.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good, and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was working on him pretty good?

Mr. SENATOR. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he repeated that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that extraordinary for him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would think it would be. To me it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. And what else was he doing that indicated to you——

Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn’t you know.

Mr. HUBERT. And what else?

Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in his eyes. I don’t know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look or a look of something. I don’t now how to tear it down. But it wasn’t a natural look.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression that morning or have you reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened?

Mr. SENATOR. About his looks?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him enough to know the difference.

Mr. HUBERT. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald.

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You noticed this difference, and you now have a recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next day; is that right?

Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what you mean when you ask me if I am reconstructing it.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of people.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Including Government agents?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whether what you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else. Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the feeling that man is getting worse on this subject?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way he appeared to me.

Mr. HUBERT. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in your mind on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it alarm you in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to describe myself with it, but I know it didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your fear?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t fearing anything. I just didn’t like the way he looked.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say it didn’t look good, in what way do you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t look like the normal look as I have known him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you passed on?

Mr. SENATOR. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn’t know what to think. I didn’t know how to think.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that you didn’t have any fears of anything.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t afraid of him.

Mr. HUBERT. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might happen to him, that he might do something?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that——

Mr. SENATOR. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or what he was thinking about.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you he had been to the——

Mr. SENATOR. To the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. To the synagogue?

Mr. SENATOR. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President. Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I really don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You left him at the house when you left?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left at approximately 12:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say something around that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the synagogue, on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left at 12:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I am only assuming within an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. So it could have been 11:30?

Mr. SENATOR. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know, when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got up until you left.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I left first.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct.

Mr. SENATOR. Now, what time he left I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up until the time you left?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down, I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no particular place or anything unusual.

Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the coffeeshop?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.

Mr. HUBERT. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a bun or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You were driving the Volkswagen?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not on business?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event that night?

Mr. SENATOR. Of where I was?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I made some groceries and——

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was gone.

Mr. HUBERT. He was not there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t there.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking that afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two. I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard, mind you.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went, whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30 that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the places.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, let me see.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t come home until 7:30?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I was out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?

Mr. SENATOR. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there is no routine.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t call on any customers?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you riding around for 7½ hours?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. SENATOR. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your lawyer friend?

Mr. SENATOR. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him. Once in a while I’d have a beer with him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the day. There was nothing that I did in general.

Mr. HUBERT. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one that was?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which grocery store it was?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.

Mr. HUBERT. Safeway?

Mr. SENATOR. Safeway.

Mr. HUBERT. On what street?

Mr. SENATOR. That is on Jefferson.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the thing that you did immediately before you went home?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?

Mr. SENATOR. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had been just before you went to the grocery?

Mr. SENATOR. Is it possible to forget?

Mr. HUBERT. Why yes, of course, it is.

Mr. SENATOR. Mind you this is 5 months.

Mr. HUBERT. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was doing that day.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can help us a little later on.

Mr. SENATOR. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But I am telling you the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious. If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me ask him a question.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin. Is this someone that you see regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may have had it and I just don’t remember. I go to see him often, or I meet him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Jim single?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a married man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on the Ruby case for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are his offices located?

Mr. SENATOR. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers’ Building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home?

Mr. SENATOR. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet him?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he represented you in any legal matters?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the President was shot, on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the President was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Was I down there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No. I drove by. I mean I didn’t stop. I drove by there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you customarily do on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I just don’t like to work. I just don’t like to do anything particular, you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette day. I do my own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you do Jack’s also?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Jack doesn’t even do his own. He sends them out, but I do my own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you do your laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers, two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is like these machines similar to the store like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that was?

Mr. SENATOR. I was there one time with him when he was picking up his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don’t pick it up one day he will pick it up the next.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He takes it over to this laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl does it for him at the laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They have girls over there, a couple colored girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would ordinarily be a self-service laundromat?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are people there so that if you don’t want to serve yourself they will do it for you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the nature of this place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His brother Sam, wasn’t he in the laundry business?

Mr. SENATOR. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by somebody. I don’t know who he was employed by, but he fixes these washers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he doesn’t have washaterias?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you are describing, is that in the general Oak Cliff area that you people lived in?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. This is in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go uptown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What section would you call this section?

Mr. SENATOR. That area would be I would say sort of north—northwest part of town I think.

Mr. HUBERT. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn’t there some equipment in the basement of the building you were in?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I said I did mine but he don’t do his.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about 7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the 24th?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me.

Mr. HUBERT. The local police?

Mr. SENATOR. Then from the local they put me into the FBI.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they question you at that time as to your activities during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12 and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30?

Mr. SENATOR. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection of what you had done during this 6-hour period?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what I told them. I don’t know if I was asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not mistaken, if that is the way it ran.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give the police a written statement?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You signed a written statement for the police?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they made me sign a written statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time it was that the police questioned you on Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why I don’t remember. When they grabbed me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and I don’t wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can’t wear a watch. And I don’t know how long I was in this little room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. That was the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the police?

Mr. SENATOR. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday morning. That is the last time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn’t see him again on Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him through a glass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But never talked to him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; couldn’t get near him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with his sister or with——

Mr. SENATOR. That day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or with anybody else who had seen Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you were questioned?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you why. When I got out, when I got through with this whole thing that night, it was already dark outside, and I for one had never seen the shooting on TV, and I still have never seen it to this day, the shooting on TV, and I never saw the runs because they had me there that late. I don’t remember what time I got out that night, but I assume it was dark. It may have been around 7 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So between the time you left Jack Ruby back at the apartment on Sunday, and the time that the police first started to question you later on Sunday afternoon, you didn’t see Jack Ruby in that interval?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least to talk to?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Eva Grant?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Tom Howard?

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard?

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take a little recess at this point.

(Short recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. We will convene again after recess, with the same conditions and same understanding about the oath and so on.

Now I think you said you came back home at 7:30 on Saturday night and you had bought some groceries and Ruby was not there.

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed yourself something to eat, and I believe you said that you left.

Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I was thinking that he might show up while I was——

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed enough I think you said for two people.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come home before you left?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?

Mr. SENATOR. I left about maybe around 8, 8:30. As I say, I got to——

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any phone calls prior to your leaving?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. SENATOR. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy Room, if I am not mistaken, that night.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling low. I was feeling low.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the friend?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Downey.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?

Mr. SENATOR. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and all the other stuff that goes with it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together?

Mr. SENATOR. Went out.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together you say?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, and everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go home including myself.

Mr. HUBERT. So you all did so?

Mr. SENATOR. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack there then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was going out. Now, where he went I don’t know, but he said he was going out.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe his condition then?

Mr. SENATOR. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it like it was in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition.

Mr. HUBERT. He was no worse?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked that question is because——

Mr. SENATOR. You know when you say “worse,” I don’t know how to put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an individual’s face.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday night and early Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the expression you used, “the thing was getting at him,” so that you formed the impression that the condition was worsening, isn’t that correct? Is that a fair statement?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it looked; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison.

Mr. SENATOR. I know what you are talking about, but I don’t know how to compare these things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier roughly Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was of the same nature or something like that. It wasn’t good, because for me to try to express, and I don’t know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express these things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your general impression was that there had not been much change in his condition over what it was on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. I will say something in the same nature.

Mr. HUBERT. That it was of the same nature?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was between you two that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said, “Well, I ate already.” He ate.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you arrived did he leave?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that fast, and out he went. Now, I don’t know where his visitation was. I don’t know if he went to see his sister.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you where he was going?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then or ever?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t tell me at all where he was going.

Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you later?

Mr. SENATOR. No; and I didn’t ask him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you don’t know where?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I went to bed. I was going to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to bed about 10:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time he came in?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I wasn’t awake.

Mr. HUBERT. The next time you saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. Was Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8 or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any way to fix it at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr. Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and don’t have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not watching it?

Mr. HUBERT. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that it was——

Mr. SENATOR. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as early as 11 o’clock you usually woke up quite early.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8 or 9 that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was sleeping.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he waken?

Mr. SENATOR. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have been maybe—of course, I have to guess again—I would assume somewheres around between 9 and 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us how long after he awakened?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your first distinct recollection of him that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which is normal for him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it was growing worse or not?

Mr. SENATOR. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The look in his eyes?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is that one of the things?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the way it seems.

Mr. HUBERT. The way he talked or what he said?

Mr. SENATOR. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn’t understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom, from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What he was jabbering I don’t know. But he was really pacing. What he was thinking about——

Mr. HUBERT. That was after he was dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don’t know what he was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember the call?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer the phone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he had already been up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union. I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard him mention $25 over the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he mention it, that he would send $25?

Mr. SENATOR. He would send $25 to her by Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that it was for rent?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me after it was for rent.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear Little Lynn ask for it?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t hear it.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course not.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore he must have told you.

Mr. SENATOR. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn because I knew——

Mr. HUBERT. You knew who she was?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for rent?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that she had called the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that at the time?

Mr. SENATOR. If she did I don’t know. This I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that call was?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get at it this way.

Mr. SENATOR. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the times.

Mr. HUBERT. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events backwards from that time, you see.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that I was off on the time because——

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the facts, so let’s approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t estimate the time, but I don’t think he was up too long.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t dressed at the time Little Lynn called.

Mr. HUBERT. He was not dressed at the time?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in his shorts.

Mr. HUBERT. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his breakfast?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone as I understand it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When he got up he went to the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if the call came in before or after he went to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don’t know which. As I say, I would have to twist it.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to twist it or to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I have to guess. I have got to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You have got to give your best estimation.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I don’t know I can’t answer it because I have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork.

Mr. HUBERT. No; we don’t want to have you guess. We want your best estimation of the passage of time. If you don’t know, we certainly don’t want you to guess. But you were there and we weren’t. Therefore, we would like to know if you know. We don’t want you to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know the times.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke that the call came from Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. You know this is very complicated when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean especially if you are not watching the time and don’t know the time. It is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together.

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now.

Mr. SENATOR. You see when you are relating all three there, in the relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn’t a great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o’clock in the morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is hard to break these things down and be accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can’t tell us, we don’t want you to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you, because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may be, maybe 2½ hours, I don’t know. Now, you know you have got to jam hours in for these three things to fit, and I can’t jam them together to make them fit.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can’t fix sequence of events instead of trying to fix hours. You got up first.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack got up next.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the toilet. That came next, didn’t it? He went to the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he fixed himself some breakfast.

Mr. SENATOR. Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the telephone call, I mean her call.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember which came first. Now I am guessing that the call came first. I am not sure. I can’t relate to be sure right now.

Mr. HUBERT. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it could have been after.

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the call, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. And after breakfast.

Mr. HUBERT. And after breakfast?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after he dressed he paced about some?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we are able to put them together.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one sequence, you don’t know. I am not critical of you because you don’t know, but we weren’t aware that you didn’t know until right now.

Mr. SENATOR. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I just can’t break it down and be right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or would you care to estimate whether it took him——

Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer. He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that much quicker than he could.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get dressed and shaved?

Mr. SENATOR. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably assume it would take something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you think it took him that long on this morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it took him that long.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that took him a half an hour?

Mr. SENATOR. I would only have to guess. I can’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would have?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t assume the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would take him a half hour?

Mr. SENATOR. I would so surmise that it would.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you would know it.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Was it at that point that he left?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything upon leaving?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Mr. SENATOR. He said, “George, I am taking the dog down to the club.”

Mr. HUBERT. Anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. That was it, and out he went.

Mr. HUBERT. He was fully dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He was fully dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe how he was dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he was coming back?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning over the telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is?

Mr. SENATOR. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident before, but I don’t remember this at all. I just don’t remember if he did or not. I can’t, in other words, I can’t refresh my mind whatsoever that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not fresh for that long.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the house or outside the house maybe?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t out.

Mr. HUBERT. You never left the house?

Mr. SENATOR. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I—no, I don’t even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling?

Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he—I don’t know, but I know that he has driven by to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don’t know if it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it hadn’t been. I don’t know on that.

Mr. HUBERT. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen Bennett called did Jack leave the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Who? Oh, Little Lynn?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. SENATOR. This I do remember.

Mr. HUBERT. He had to dress?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which came first, if she called or he fixed breakfast first.

Mr. HUBERT. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called until he told you “I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to the club.” Have you any idea at all? If you don’t, tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait, wait, what time she called?

Mr. HUBERT. No; the time interval between when she called and when he left.

Mr. SENATOR. I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base it?

Mr. SENATOR. I am just guessing. I can’t base it on anything. I am only guessing.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress.

Mr. SENATOR. Sure you have got to dress.

Mr. HUBERT. So that took up some time.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; had to wash.

Mr. HUBERT. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little interval of time.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you characterize it as a wild guess——

Mr. SENATOR. I have got to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting together of these little segments of time and estimating what each would take.

Mr. SENATOR. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess all this.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn’t it really the result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do these little segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and down and so forth, and you added them up and came to about three quarters of an hour; wasn’t that your mental processes rather than a wild guess?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together. Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure?

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but——

Mr. SENATOR. You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work.

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day.

Mr. SENATOR. They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had to give guess works.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying now is that the times that you estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times on that very day? You were examined, weren’t you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. And I have always said I would have to guess the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time?

Mr. SENATOR. That Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I always have to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the earlier part of the day?

Mr. SENATOR. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the earlier part of the day; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Of times?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. SENATOR. If a man doesn’t see a clock, or doesn’t see a watch, what else can he do? What else can you go by?

Mr. HUBERT. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day, your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can tell me if you don’t see a clock or a watch, how do you tell?

Mr. HUBERT. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time I believe it was something about the late President, but I don’t just recall what it was, but I believe it was——

Mr. HUBERT. Practically everything that day was. You don’t remember any specific part?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no. I don’t remember any specific part.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the last time you saw Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up on Sunday morning before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning? Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did wake up before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I always—I would say 95 percent of the time I was up before him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But on this day do you have any recollection?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was still in bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast for yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I had coffee. I made coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this period between the time you got up and the time that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the entire period?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you visited by anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That day?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know any of the other people who lived in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Sidney Evans?

Mr. SENATOR. Sidney Evans?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor Express, truck drivers apparently.

Mr. SENATOR. Did they live there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were supposed to; yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you?

Mr. SENATOR. When you say across the hall, it was a =U=. That was just by the U shape.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony sort of a situation?

Mr. SENATOR. A balcony, but it was a =U=. In other words, when I walked out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would hit the ground. There was nobody facing me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on either side?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That =U= that you are talking about, is it sort of a stairwell, is that it? The =U= is on one floor of the stairwell?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were three suites on the landing that you people were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack’s suite which you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn’t the end of the strip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a hallway, wasn’t there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was a balcony.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. A railing—I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you opened out onto this balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along that balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your mind—in other words, say that I am facing my door right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And the balcony goes =U=-shaped like this. Do you follow me? In other words, this is all space out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything in front of you is space?

Mr. SENATOR. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on this side plus balconies this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many different——

Mr. SENATOR. The entire level.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How many different?

Mr. SENATOR. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front, there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Another stairway?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there perhaps—how many of those people did you know?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know any. I never had a conversation with any of them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn’t know any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn’t a conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what happened after Jack left the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the day. You were turning to another subject?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That I think would be another subject.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and——

Mr. HUBERT. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not mad at you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 8:35 a.m., on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, you will understand that this is a continuation of the deposition which was begun yesterday, and that Mr. Griffin and I, who are examining you, are doing so under the same authority and under the same conditions as were indicated to you at the beginning of the deposition yesterday. Likewise, I take it that you understand, unless I hear to the contrary that you are still under the same oath which you took at the commencement of the testimony on yesterday; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the end of the session on yesterday we reached the point where on Sunday, November 24, you had left your apartment or you were leaving your apartment, as I recall it. Your testimony was that Mr. Ruby had already left. I think you fixed, but just for the purpose of continuity at the moment, would you now try to fix the approximate time at which he left?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I left?

Mr. HUBERT. No; when he left.

Mr. SENATOR. To me, I thought it was somewheres between 10:15 and 10:30. Of course, I found out hereafter in the courtroom that I was wrong, but this at that time was the approximate figure that I had that he left.

Mr. HUBERT. You told us yesterday that whatever time it was, your thought was that it was approximately three-quarters of an hour after he received the call from Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. No. At the time he left—in my courtroom statement there I fixed the time at approximately 10:15 or 10:30. That is where I thought he had left around that time.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now to fix it not in point of clock time but in point of how many hours or minutes it was, or parts of hours it was, after the long distance call from Little Lynn in which you understood that she asked for $25.

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say it would probably be approximately somewhere, I imagine somewhere between three-quarters to an hour. Now this is about as close as I can think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you base that upon two considerations, at least that you stated to us yesterday. That he was not yet dressed.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When Little Lynn called?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that he got dressed and cleaned up, washed up?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then spent some short, relatively short period of time pacing around, as you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Before leaving. And that you estimated yesterday I think it was about three-quarters of an hour.

Mr. SENATOR. Three-quarters of an hour. I mean this is just an estimation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he left he told you he was taking the dog Sheba down to the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he made no other comment?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what time he was coming back?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no mention of anything at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did you do next? How long did you stay in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. After he left I’m still sitting around in my shorts yet. I’m not dressed or not washed or anything outside of having a cup of coffee. I had coffee.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have TV on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you, after he left I was reading the Sunday paper.

Mr. HUBERT. And you cut off the TV?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t have the TV going. I was just reading. I read the paper, and from there I washed, shaved, got dressed, and took a ride downtown, and as I say, this place, the Eatwell——

Mr. HUBERT. How long after Ruby left did you leave?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was about three-quarters of an hour, I guess, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went directly to the Eatwell?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You used your Volkswagen, I think you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park, do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I parked right by the Eatwell.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a parking lot there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is right on the street. You know Sunday there is no difficulty.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then take it from there. Tell us what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. So I went in there. I sat down there. Now, this is the place that I go every morning, you know, rather Sunday or Monday because I don’t like to sit indoors. So I went there and had a cup of coffee. Then the first thing—then I had another cup of coffee. Now, on my second cup of coffee I heard the girl, the waitress—now where she got her information from I don’t know. It had to be either telephone or radio, I don’t know which. Maybe they had the radio on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any kind of a radio of any type in the restaurant?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they usually have any?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. The first time she said she heard that somebody shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she speaking to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me.

Mr. HUBERT. There were other people in the place?

Mr. SENATOR. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news. I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I’ll call him back.

A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that the man—she wasn’t pronouncing the name right, the Carousel Club, but I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed Oswald. This is what she come up with later.

Mr. HUBERT. How much later?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say about 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had called Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after I called Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. You called Martin right away?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn’t think he would be—of course, I didn’t know he was going to church or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a close friend of yours?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then?

Mr. SENATOR. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him. Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn’t know what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got there, he had just got there, I don’t know, I think a moment or two before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to his home, you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, “I heard already. I saw it on TV.”

Mr. HUBERT. He was already at his house, you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was home already.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you got to his house?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was about a 20-minute ride.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not attempt to call Martin again?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t call him. I just went direct. I figured if he wasn’t home I’d wait for him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend?

Mr. SENATOR. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said, “Jim, what in the world are we going to do?”

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you said a moment ago, “After all, he was my roommate”, that you felt some concern for yourself.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened, I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me.

Mr. HUBERT. You thought that somebody would be coming after you?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his advice as a lawyer as well as a friend?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; what to do. What should I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that true of the phone call as well?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as well?

Mr. SENATOR. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second time—I didn’t——

Mr. HUBERT. You realized your position at that time as being his roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police might be picking you up?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what?

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in fact?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was just jammed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at Martin’s house, speaking to him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you in effect ask him what you should do?

Mr. SENATOR. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be best to go down. He thought so, too.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or his.

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a combination of both.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had been made?

Mr. SENATOR. 5 or 10, something like that. I’m not sure of the exact time.

Mr. HUBERT. The decision had been made to go down to the police department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there?

Mr. SENATOR. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down there than to be picked up, because after all, I’m his roommate and I know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down there and say, “Now look, I’m George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack Ruby’s and do you have anything to ask of me?” That was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someone is——

Mr. SENATOR. I said I was what?

Mr. HUBERT. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. I was sleeping with him?

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that.

Mr. SENATOR. I never said that, never.

Mr. HUBERT. I misunderstood you then.

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not mean——

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I hear that right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I did not catch it.

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that?

Mr. SENATOR. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I don’t even remember this incident being said.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. I just wanted to get it clear, because some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that to be misunderstood if it were not true.

Mr. SENATOR. It definitely isn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when you got there, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go, in fact?

Mr. SENATOR. Actually, I didn’t know where to go. We went upstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. What entrance, do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I guess the front entrance, we went up.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what office I was at.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with?

Mr. SENATOR. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two policemen, whoever they were I don’t know, I told them who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they stationed?

Mr. SENATOR. They were right by the elevator as you got off.

Mr. HUBERT. As you got off on one of the upper floors?

Mr. SENATOR. One of the floors. I don’t remember what floor it was on.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you did not speak to anybody as you came into the building?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On the ground floor?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen stopped you; is that the idea?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was with Jim Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told them?

Mr. SENATOR. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it, and they mobbed me. They mobbed me.

Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you they put me into a little sort of solitary room.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the same floor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And I don’t remember how long. I mean I had no way of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for somebody who was going to—they said to wait there, I don’t know. They kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted a statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after leaving Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and taken by these two policemen?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And put into a room on the same floor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then was Mr. Martin with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me to this room they wouldn’t let him in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He says “I’m his lawyer”; he was my lawyer. But we still were separated.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with you?

Mr. SENATOR. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don’t remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn’t let him in, so apparently he was trying to get in too.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest?

Mr. SENATOR. No, never placed under arrest.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the door locked?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to remain there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any guards on the door?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you don’t know how long you remained there?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked like where they keep some inventory books—not books, probably paper goods or something like that. It was a very small room.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear what was going on outside the room?

Mr. SENATOR. No, couldn’t hear a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the room have any windows in it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the light on?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that nature, or something like that in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police search you or frisk you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything away from you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t under arrest at all.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the next thing that happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, finally, I don’t remember this man’s name, you may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain clothes. He questioned me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside?

Mr. SENATOR. No, he questioned me in that room.

Mr. HUBERT. Just one man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State government?

Mr. SENATOR. I assumed he was local.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you found out since who he was?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t. I think he must have been a detective of some nature. I mean I don’t know what his classification was, because all I know is, he was in plain clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his inquiry?

Mr. SENATOR. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry.

Mr. HUBERT. The time of the President’s shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, from the President to——

Mr. HUBERT. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for your time during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean where I was?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby had been doing too, I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Both of you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the afternoon of Friday, November 22?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is how it started.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the 23d?

Mr. SENATOR. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him, and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard, “Impeach Earl Warren”. That was the only thing I forgot to tell him that slipped my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he questioned me on that or not. I don’t remember if he did or not on that. I don’t remember if he did on that.

Mr. HUBERT. But if he did——

Mr. SENATOR. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most naturally nervous.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t tell him that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your reason for not?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.

As a matter of fact, I’m sorry that I—I should have told him. If I thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a benefactor for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these two episodes was forgetfulness?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

I was a pretty shaken boy. I’m not used to something like this. This is something that will shake you up.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot?

Mr. SENATOR. Just forgot.

Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. No, because I didn’t—I don’t think I did because I don’t know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge I don’t think I was questioned at any time what I did on Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday night and Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. The best that I can recollect, it was more important of the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and when I got home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters approximately as you have told us to date?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean from the events of Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached in this deposition.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are.

Mr. HUBERT. How long do you suppose that interview with the police officer lasted?

Mr. SENATOR. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. SENATOR. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in another room, and his story was about the same.

Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started, you know, my name——

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the FBI examination of you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was, you know, like you started off.

Mr. HUBERT. He went into details as it were?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. He went into more detail?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; because the details—in other words, he started from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that nature, like you did.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as it were.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was more to it.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Did he ask you for more details?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you started off.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his examination of you was along the same lines as mine has been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because—well, in certain parts I would say, but I think yours are more meticulous—is that the proper word—than his. In other words, yours are more thorough.

Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to account for your time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack, having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me from one to the other, it was the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone out with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. I may have. I don’t remember if I did or not, now, on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the Bernard Weissman advertisement?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. I don’t remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember that, either.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take?

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, it’s guesswork again. I would say maybe it took a couple hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it one man or more?

Mr. SENATOR. One. I would say now——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his name was Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not ask that your lawyer be present?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was over? What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Then they let me go. They released me.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer?

Mr. SENATOR. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man said, “That is all there is.” That is all there was of the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were permitted to leave?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you left?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know when I got outside again it was dark.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody waiting for you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a message, or handed me a message, I don’t remember who it was, that Jim Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who brought me down.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a police officer?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; you mean who handed me the message?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you did not remember who handed you——

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate it was written, you see?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street from the——

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a verbal message?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a written message. I don’t remember who gave it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You just put it in your pocket or something?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. You read it and threw it away?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three attorneys.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this segment that I have covered this morning up to this point?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not?

Mr. SENATOR. I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was in my underwear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty?

Mr. SENATOR. Which of the waitresses?

Mr. GRIFFIN. And management people were on duty.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say there were probably two or—no; not glancing around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or 3 waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You eat there regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I stop there every day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you know these waitresses?

Mir. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the waitresses were on duty.

Mr. SENATOR. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her name. I know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of them by name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know any of them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the names of the owners?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don’t know his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?

Mr. SENATOR. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is the father and Charles is the son.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say they are?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say Charles must be—of course, they weren’t there that day. Charles I would probably say is in—could be in I guess his late thirties, I’m not sure, and the father I would probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty?

Mr. SENATOR. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and I believe brown eyes. I don’t know how to describe her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen?

Mr. SENATOR. Helen? A little short girl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what she looks like.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while they wear badges but I can’t remember one from the other, outside of their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never take that much notice of who’s who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were Jack Ruby’s roommate, did she not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think she did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The people at the Eatwell knew——

Mr. SENATOR. Some know me but I don’t think this one knew me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They know Jack as well as they know you, don’t they?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if they know him. See, Jack and I never went in there, I mean together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack eats there regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or ate there regularly, did he not?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack don’t eat there because he don’t like their type cooking. No; Jack don’t eat there. Now I go there every day. I go there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say, probably 7 days a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while you were in there?

Mr. SENATOR. There was very few people in there that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned over the television set that Jack Ruby had——

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you about it. You did not have anything to——

Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t say a word to me about it. Now, if they did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can’t quote myself, if I am that correct or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of contacting after you heard that Jack had shot——

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you——

Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was an attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was that had shot Lee Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being someone from the Carousel Club.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea who shot——

Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I called Jim.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was?

Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say anything to those members of the press?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions?

Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two policemen nabbed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?

Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer these questions there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that evening about what you had said down at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear for yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or someone might try to implicate you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you were at the police station——

Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say the normal person would be shaken up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this. When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or your car?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you parked downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume, I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my knowledge, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station?

Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the police station.

Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know where he was; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was going to take the dog to the club.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had some indication?

Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you called Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?

Mr. SENATOR. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t think about it. There was no particular reason why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the apartment? Did you and he do things together?

Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen, but the overall picture, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in connection with your business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on?

Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays normally?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of years to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you are closer to than Barclay and Howard?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many friends that came in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and Martin more often than you saw the other people?

Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the courthouse and things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves?

Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept me up when I didn’t have a place to stay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and Barclay?

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting.

Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was traveling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the closest to?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost every day, especially more so during the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else to whom you felt equally as close?

Mr. SENATOR. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends. I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends I had, good friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been shot was Jim Martin.

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on further. You have had some conversation with him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn’t know. I was told.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course, I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in that locale, they knew it before I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the jail. Did you meet anyone?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?

Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar.

Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home.

Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of what, but I was scared.

Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt you?

Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact I was scared for about 10 days after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were scared for 10 days after being——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep in the same place twice. Who I was to fear I don’t know, but just the normal thing, I was afraid.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you slept at different places every night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean.

Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the places you slept in?

Mr. SENATOR. I slept at Jim’s a few times. I checked into an inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow’s apartment one time and then I finally went to Jean’s and stayed there, Jean Lauve. She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was scared. You asked me what I feared. I don’t know who I feared or what I feared but I just——

Mr. HUBERT. You honestly feared that somebody——

Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct in a situation such as this.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid.

Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a crackpot. I don’t know what it could be.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being to do.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just trying to find out the reason.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no reason for it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.

Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was just a fear.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of people who might want to hurt you?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don’t know of any group?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?

Mr. SENATOR. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay——

Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m just afraid.”

Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What are you afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be?

Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid of. I don’t know who I am afraid of.

Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but you must have done something——

Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t place my finger on it.

Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have you in mind next?

Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you gave us as to the crackpot.

Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don’t know what it could be.

Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was?

Mr. SENATOR. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”?

Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the point that some people other than a crackpot might——

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t think that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a crackpot?

Mr. SENATOR. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the matter?

Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected with anyone else?

Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you.

Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was connected with it?

Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in it at all but Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as that.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn’t think of anything such as what?

Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn’t connected with anybody whatsoever of any nature.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn’t connected with anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you, obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t have any. Let me put it this way. Even today I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don’t know. This is something you just don’t erase out of your mind, that is all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing.

Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night, when you talked to the lawyers for awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin’s?

Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I’m not sure but I think Jim put me up because I was afraid to go home and I didn’t have a place to go to. If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment, his home rather.

Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind?

Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the land that he lived in as I have told you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack didn’t talk to you about.

Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn’t talk to you about everything he did?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He lived in the glamour of the show business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that he was doing?

Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I really answer that and know?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know he is the kind of person who doesn’t go out and talk about everything he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to talk about some of the things he is doing.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don’t think he would hide anything from me. I can’t say positive but I don’t think he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn’t discuss his relationships in the Vegas Club or in the Carousel Club with you.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he?

Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn’t going to detail to me how much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what he don’t owe. I mean I wasn’t confided in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then it is——

Mr. SENATOR. What I mean to say, the Federal Government, you mean tax problems?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I take it these were not things that he discussed with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; you could be friendly, friendly and all that there, but you don’t know. I mean they don’t tell you everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am suggesting again or asking you again is if Jack was not the kind of person who about certain matters which he considered personal or important to himself wouldn’t talk about it.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think he would discuss everything; as a matter of fact I don’t think there is any individual who will tell you everything. I don’t care who they are. I am certain, I know there are people, every little thing, I mean there are certain things they keep to themselves. I would probably say like you, you, or anybody else. They are not going to tell you everything about their whereabouts, their notes, what they owe or what they don’t owe or things of that nature. Everybody has a little secret or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To put it another way, you wouldn’t describe Jack Ruby as the kind of person who as a matter of his constitutional and emotional makeup had to tell you everything he was doing? There are some people like that.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean would he tell me everything he was doing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there are some people who are the kind of people who just somehow have to unload almost everything they are doing to other people. Now Jack Ruby wasn’t that kind of person, was he?

Mr. SENATOR. Of what he thought you mean or his thinking?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his problems and so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no. I don’t think he would unload everything. I am certain there are things that he may have owed or certain discussions he may have had that I am certain he wouldn’t discuss with me. I am certain he didn’t want me to know everything there was to know, you know, like anybody else would. There are certain things that an individual keeps to themselves, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to pass to the next day, which is to say Monday, the 25th, unless you can advise me now that there was nothing of significance that occurred on the night of the 24th after you had met with Mr. Martin and Mr. Barclay.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Sunday night?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Barclay wasn’t with me Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. There was another attorney.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t say Barclay. I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Tom Howard that night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t remember if I saw him or not that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed early?

Mr. SENATOR. You see I can’t quote if I did or didn’t. I just don’t remember if I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to bed at Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been 11, 12, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. As I remember it, you said you met them at about 6 or 7. It was dark in any case?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour and you left?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour in the beer place?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been a half hour, it may have been an hour, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left and went to Jim Martin’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe we went to Jim Martin’s house. I think that I slept there that first night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet anyone else that first night or speak to anyone else that first night, that is November the 24th, 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Are you talking about Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. No; November 24 was a Sunday.

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I was wrapped up. I was wrapped up in the courthouse all that day.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean to say after you left the beer parlor, which I think you said was the TV Bar?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you think you went to Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I met Tom Howard. I just don’t remember the incident but I am almost certain that I went there to sleep.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am asking you is that prior to the time——

Mr. SENATOR. Did we meet anybody else?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember but I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s come then to Monday morning.

What happened then?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if you can let me interrupt you here before you get to Monday morning.

When you met with Martin at the TV Bar, did you all talk about Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there was discussion of it, that there and the events. Of course, he asked me what happened after I got in there. I told him. This detective, I guess, I just don’t remember who the man was, they interrogated me and I told them the FBI interrogated me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Martin say anything to you about Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether or not he had seen Jack while you were being interrogated by the police?

Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I think he said he seen him at a glance behind us, I think it was the same window that I saw. They had him in this room there and I think there were three or four men there, something like that, but there was this glass partition. In other words, you could see in. I think he saw him. I am not sure but I think he saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tom Howard at the TV Bar at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I remember there was Jim, there was this other attorney, but I don’t remember if Tom was or not. In other words, I don’t want to quote and say he was or wasn’t because I just don’t remember. He may have been now. He may have been there. I just can’t think if he was or not that night. He may have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what your conversation was about at the TV Bar?

Mr. SENATOR. No; of course, I told him—he asked me what happened, you know. I told him I was interrogated by the local police and the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack’s defense?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Saturday night, the 23d, you spent some time with Bill Downey and Mike Barclay?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see them?

Mr. SENATOR. We were sitting at a bar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bar was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think we were in the Burgundy Room and then we went to another one there and had I think either one or two beers and then we went home. At least I went home anyhow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other bar that you were in?

Mr. SENATOR. It was very seldom I ever went there. I’m trying to think of the name of it. It is a short name too, and I can’t even put my finger on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street was it on?

Mr. SENATOR. On Fitzhugh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. It was on Fitzhugh. It runs off of, I think—down where Travis is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Fitzhugh and Travis. I should know the name of it but I can’t get it off my tongue. It is a short name too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that anywhere near Hall Street?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is uptown about I would probably say from the downtown area I would imagine it would probably take you 10 minutes to get up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean the time you spent with Downey and Barclay—what did you talk about with them that night, Saturday night?

Mr. SENATOR. We talked about the occurrence of the shooting of the President, that there. It was just a gloomy night. That is why I didn’t want to stay long. I said I wanted to get home and they said they wanted to get home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a date to meet them at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I met them both by chance there. Now I am not sure if I had a date to meet Bill or not, I don’t remember, but I think Mike just walked in casually. I mean just happened to walk in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Bill married?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Mike?

Mr. SENATOR. Mike; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they know Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Who don’t know Jack in Dallas? They all knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time would you say you spent with them Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. We went to that bar, I would roughly say maybe a half hour to three quarters of an hour, I would guess around that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is when we went to this other place and had a beer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All together, the time you spent at the Burgundy Room and the other place on Fitzhugh how much time did you spend with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe an hour and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then when you went home what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. I went home and went to bed. I think I took a newspaper with me, if I am not mistaken and went home and went to bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to bed at what you would consider an early hour Saturday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would say it was somewhere around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much sleep do you normally get, when you go to bed, how much sleep do you normally put in in a night?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, that would go according to what time you went to bed, you know. It could be 4, 5, 6, 7 hours. I doubt if I ever stay in bed more than 8 hours the most, if it ever happens that long, which is rare.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that on Sunday morning you arose by 7 o’clock?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I got up that early.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you didn’t get up that early, then would it have been because you got to bed late that night after 11 or after midnight?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I must have been home about 11 o’clock that night. I think I read a little bit but I know I was in bed before 12. I think I was in the apartment around 11. I got home around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think you got more than 8 hours sleep that night or do you?

Mr. SENATOR. I doubt if I got more than 8 hours sleep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I suggest to you that in all probability you got up on Sunday morning before 8 o’clock.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say around 8. Now mind you I got home 11 o’clock; so I assume I got in bed maybe around 12. Now mind you it is not necessarily that you fall asleep right away. Look, there is many a night that I toss and turn for 4 or 5 hours and didn’t fall asleep, which is rare, but it has happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have trouble sleeping that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean when I went to sleep, when I fell asleep I slept well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s see. I think we were at the point of Monday morning, and I should like you to tell us what happened on Monday beginning with the time you got up on Monday morning. I think you said you slept at Jim Martin’s house.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do the next day?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got up and I drove him to his office and I think from there I went——

Mr. HUBERT. In your car?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I drove him down, and I dropped him off, and then I went and had coffee. I don’t remember if it was around 9 or something like that. He gets down about 9 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anything happen at the coffee shop?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing particular, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the people there talk about Ruby and your connection with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Talk to me about him? No; they didn’t say anything, but they knew, you know. The people who knew me knew.

Mr. HUBERT. But nobody said anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But the fact that you had been his roommate.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was pretty silent. It was pretty silent.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened the rest of the day? What did you do that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I just roamed around in a fog that day, nothing in particular.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t attempt to do your normal business?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t in any condition for business. I didn’t feel that good.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing anybody that day at all.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain—who I saw I don’t remember but I am certain that I seen people; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that sometime you saw Howard and you don’t know whether you saw Howard the night before.

Mr. SENATOR. It is very possible that I may have seen Howard the next day. I may have seen him. Now where or when I don’t know, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you see him about? Can you tell us what the nature of the conversation was?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I heard that Howard was getting the case, the Jack Ruby case.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see him about what? Put it this way, did he call for you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or did you just decide to go and see him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t call for me.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to see him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him sometime during that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it was about, what you talked about?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe it was anything particular that we talked about except I heard that he was getting the Jack Ruby case.

I don’t remember the particular conversation at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us this then. Since he didn’t call upon you, you called upon him, what was the purpose of your visiting him? To find out the status of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Of me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. To find out the status of Ruby’s defense, to see if you could help, to see if you could throw light upon it, to find out what was going on?

Mr. SENATOR. Everything in general was going on, you know. The photographers were around and the newspapers were around, and I believe he was down at the jailhouse. It is a conglomeration of things going on.

Mr. HUBERT. But you went to see him, and I suppose that was the purpose of the visit, that was the purpose in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no purpose in mind. It was just going to see him. When you say the purpose in mind—I was so mixed up myself I didn’t know what was going on.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not trying to confuse you.

Mr. SENATOR. There was no general purpose in mind.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying to us is then that you just went to see him, Mr. Howard, and that there was no purpose in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No particular purpose in mind. I saw him. I saw Jim Martin later on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you excuse me a minute. Will you take over.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply ask you to remember everything that Mr. Hubert has been in the practice of repeating before we proceed.

Mr. SENATOR. If I can remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the effect that you are still under oath and we are continuing under the same circumstances that we began.

I believe we were talking about Monday, and you had indicated that on Monday you went to see Tom Howard.

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him. I just don’t remember where. Monday there was so much excitement going that when I say excitement, of the occurrence of the day before, and with your photographers around town and your pressmen and whatnot, you know, and the incoming of the FBI and things of that nature there, you know, it was a crazy cycle, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any members of the Ruby family that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I saw them that day. I can’t quote every instance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his employees?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I went up—let’s see, the club was closed Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and I think they did open Monday, and I think I was up there Monday night, if I am not mistaken, and, of course, going up there you had all your photographers, especially the ones from Europe and various parts were coming around. Of course, everybody wanted to see what the Carousel Club was. You know, it was just a mixed-up thing, so many things were going on there, and you were just roaming here and there, and, of course, people were questioning. A lot of people wanted to take pictures of me and this thing here. It was just a jammed-up, mixed-up day.

I know I saw Tom Howard that day. I don’t remember where I saw him, if I called on him or what it was because so many things were going on there and my mind was in a muddle even with that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The questioning that took place on Monday, did it have to do with what you had done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What Jack had done on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nothing in general. I mean there was nothing particular. I mean all my questionings—I mean all my questionings—I had that Sunday you know, with the local detective or whoever the gentlemen was, and the FBI man.

But Monday, when they wanted to know about Jack Ruby, they wanted to see pictures of him. They wanted to see the club of his. They wanted to see whatever they could get their hands on to see. They wanted to know this about him and that about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they want to know if he was involved with anybody else, whether there could have been a plot or a conspiracy to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain that probably would run through the minds of everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they asking questions about that?

Mr. SENATOR. They have asked me so many questions that I can’t even remember to think of them, you know, because there were so many questions thrown at you. And when they are throwing them at you, the general questions, they wanted to see the club, they wanted to see pictures, who were the strippers, this, that and whatnot. There was nothing precise except the curiosity of the things they wanted to see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you talked with Howard, of course, Howard indicated to you that you probably would be a witness for Jack, did he not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the incident at that time. I don’t remember if he said it or not because I would probably say it was a little too soon at that time, the happenings, and I assume that Howard was kept pretty busy at the beginning, probably going to see Jack Ruby and this. You see, people were grabbing everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall talking with anyone about being a witness for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time it didn’t even enter my head. I wasn’t thinking about that even. But as time went by, and I can’t specify just how much time went by, I believe it was when Mr. Belli came into the case. See, I don’t remember just how long it was from there until they got this Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: After you heard that Jack had killed Oswald, did you have any idea, did you think, why did he do it?

Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t the slightest idea. I couldn’t imagine why. I’ll tell you why I say that. Because he never at any time ever gave me any indication of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since then——

Mr. SENATOR. I just couldn’t picture this man doing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t think. I couldn’t picture him being of this nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing that he had done that you had seen up to that point that would indicate that he had any thought about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, none whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he had never even mentioned this Oswald to me during this occurrence even, but he had talked about the President, and he had talked about Mrs. Kennedy and the children, I don’t know how many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you think he was any more disturbed than what you——

Mr. SENATOR. He was plenty disturbed. He was plenty disturbed. The man was crying. People have seen him, not only I, people have seen him crying. As a matter of fact, one of the kids in the club one night when we sat in a corner related he was crying and very, very disturbed. I believe it was one afternoon he was in there, if I remember right, I think it was the colored boy, Andrews, if I am not mistaken, I think said he saw him in a solemn condition or whatever condition you want to call it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were interviewed by Elmer Moore?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time? Who were you staying with at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t want to be quoted, but I think I was staying with Jean Lauve then. I am not sure, but I think I was there at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the interview take place?

Mr. SENATOR. At the FBI building. I can’t think of the name of the building, but the FBI people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret Service.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you and ask you to come down?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you would like to see it. I’ve still got that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at that point?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I was there. I’m not sure. I don’t remember just where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore called me, I just don’t remember how many days have elapsed by when he called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you return to work at any time before Moore——

Mr. SENATOR. Return to work?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; before Moore called you.

Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t worked at all from this thing here up until I told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I was just existing here and there, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your employment up until the time that the President was killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your own company?

Mr. SENATOR. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no say. In other words, I had no money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people, the backers?

Mr. SENATOR. The backers?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest St. Charles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get involved in that?

Mr. SENATOR. In the postcard business?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out—see, he had a card rack like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know, which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a going business.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don’t remember if he couldn’t handle it or he couldn’t handle both of them, I think it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was deteriorating a bit because it wasn’t getting the service. It wasn’t being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped a certain amount.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire this business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they put up the money; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much money did they put up?

Mr. SENATOR. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for $3,000, if I can remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire?

Mr. SENATOR. The cards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No office space?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has got this sort of garage-like thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you talking about?

Mr. SENATOR. The fellow that had it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. SENATOR. I should remember his name. I can’t even think of his name right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and St. Charles have another business which they operated while they——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this business was a small little thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a sideline with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a little thing. It wasn’t even, you know—it was a small little business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Seder’s main business?

Mr. SENATOR. Seder was a traveling man who sold men’s apparel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was St. Charles’ main business?

Mr. SENATOR. St. Charles, a drugstore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from?

Mr. SENATOR. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren’t that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any——

Mr. SENATOR. There wasn’t that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you buy those?

Mr. SENATOR. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying the postcards too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him by telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Seder and St. Charles.

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be——

Mr. SENATOR. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a no-care attitude any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and novelty company?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue with your draw after Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn’t do anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately 10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was with Lauve.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves?

Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say approximately around 5 weeks, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first week, if I remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what?

Mr. SENATOR. January.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the last week in February.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?

Mr. SENATOR. At my sister’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the first bond hearing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning?

Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but it was in December sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other agents and they were departing, they were going home.

So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he mentioned, call Mr. Clements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was representing Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else?

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?

Mr. SENATOR. In the jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him?

Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the bond hearing was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there, besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long because they let you know that you have got to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that. I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon?

Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I am not mistaken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think how he felt.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t have information on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were really serious about making bond?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the case?

Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a part of the case; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to talk with Howard at all?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know, but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing, practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to describe him. He had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you know, and then all the things materialized after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. How many times?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. A guess?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there was some change?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words; you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about anything like that; anything but that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice a change——

Mr. SENATOR. He had lost weight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had lost weight?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the way he carried his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever done that before?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so, that I can remember of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What passages of the Bible was he quoting?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t. He didn’t quote the passages, but he quoted that he was reading the Bible. He didn’t quote any passages to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech?

Mr. SENATOR. What do you mean; the manner of his speech?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had discussed them previously to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation. The words were even silent. There was no speaking at times; just, you know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn’t touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you and he would be separated?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. I couldn’t even touch him. It was impossible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get this on the record. This is the problem.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking through a glass about like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking through a little glass door?

Mr. SENATOR. And like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A little glass window?

Mr. SENATOR. A window something like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately. This is a guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At about eye level?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it’s eye level. And under it are these perforations that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perforations in a door of some sort?

Mr. SENATOR. No door; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a wall?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could not see Jack other than through that window?

Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel?

Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as well say it was part of the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in?

Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell. I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course, I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words, there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand; nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or whatever it was, wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any substantial changes in him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe 5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself, which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack where he wasn’t coherent?

Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another word and make it more simplified for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared that he did not understand what you were saying to him?

Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not make any sense to you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he would not be able to respond at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that, because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement of where he is in, of what he is in——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here, and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you recognize him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are. Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to me. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit 5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?

Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?

Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night, amateur hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers?

Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack’s stripteasers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but recognize him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can see there. The majority are all customers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.

Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain’t looking this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs.

Mr. SENATOR. That is Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi True?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers?

Mr. SENATOR. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all. I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of seeing. This you can’t see hardly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any of the people in those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett.

Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with Jack Ruby the last time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know. This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there, that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that, and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t talked to her about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know the stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?

Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?

Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I don’t know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress?

Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?

Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize anybody else?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay. This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers, do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?

Mr. SENATOR. You don’t want the strippers, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think so but I just can’t see their face well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no, I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short while, this particular one here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.

Mr. SENATOR. Where did you get this good picture?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to——

Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head because it is sort of baldish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you don’t recognize any of them?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you look at the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right side of the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two, but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I don’t know what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of the girls in that picture?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right?

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these memoranda.

Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those that are shown in those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes, everything else like he kept his money, all over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is the way he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my knowledge that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?

Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper, sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by. I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is just no particular type piece of paper with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in his pocket, I assume that is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you recognize that notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of them.

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