Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 4 of 6)

Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15) (part 4 of 6)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages?

Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall having seen this particular notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover, but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know that he had a notebook of some sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on there?

Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Bourber or Barber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize any of them.

Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall?

Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I may not recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that. Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name. I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady. There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen her working.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have heard that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do, would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on there you can’t read.

Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.

Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound out the names, don’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize.

Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay.

Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with reference to Exhibit 5305-F.

Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about?

Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the name R. T. Brown on there.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H.

Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names on there?

Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here, numbers or moneys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out how to classify him now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does.

Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the street, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of that nature, but he always came to Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.

Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you, I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the names. I may know them if I see their face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you recognize any of the names on there.

Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have, but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with these.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not familiar with the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the witness.

Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman?

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who ever worked for him, Norma.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before——

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in prizefighting?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to watch them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the fight game when he was a younger man?

Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it was as a youngster.

I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi, so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little Lynn.

Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there, and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N, and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize any of them.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him?

Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A-i-k-e-n-s?

Mr. SENATOR. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here? This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is 5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that name mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore?

Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes with it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch?

Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so.

Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.

Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to you about him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another, whatever it may be, but I wasn’t——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how personal, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman as you were to Jim Martin, for example?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt?

Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know that, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman?

Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jerry Wilson?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about that.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?

Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how to describe it. He is an idea man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter?

Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit?

Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had already made these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items?

Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ed Pullman——

Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying to promote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mr. SENATOR. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing? It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you get on it and it moves around like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a weight reducer, like?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a twister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try and sell them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the 1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of November?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose interest in it, or something?

Mr. SENATOR. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had competition because there was one already out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know the name of the place, in Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard project?

Mr. SENATOR. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the ground.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with them?

Mr. SENATOR. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or from Fort Worth?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of material were they made out of?

Mr. SENATOR. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about this size here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about a foot long?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A foot square?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight of an individual.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was something that you would lean up against?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you would stand on this board?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, you would stand on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would stand on it?

Mr. SENATOR. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the bottom part would remain stationary?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and, of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the promotion of it with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot now—or the Herald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know him?

Mr. SENATOR. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you know, I went up there with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Cantrell?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gladys?

Mr. SENATOR. Gladys who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all it says.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. J. B. Herred?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Oscar Newman?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit 5305-S. Gloria Rettig?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn you have mentioned.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Vicky Williams?

Mr. SENATOR. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.”

I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be perforated segments.

Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page. I believe that is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are going to identify the names?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yanover, I think.

Mr. SENATOR. Carroll Walker I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a Jack Hanover?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I have seen it on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is actually the second page on which there is any writing.

Mr. SENATOR. Wally what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?

Mr. SENATOR. The Doctors Club?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is Linda’s last name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like——

Mr. SENATOR. Kuhox?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kuhox.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything like that ring a bell?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those first names?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4.

Mr. SENATOR. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked about him.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume that is Andy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Andy Armstrong?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.

Mr. SENATOR. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former stripper of some time back, this Lauri.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lauri?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Lauri have a last name?

Mr. SENATOR. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the last name?

Mr. SENATOR. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. K-n-i-g-h-t?

Mr. SENATOR. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew Russ.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him, a disc jockey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you bowl with?

Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly. But very seldom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bowl frequently?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bowl more than you did?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat. They had a big restaurant there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What eating places did Jack frequent?

Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night, you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Egyptian Lounge?

Mr. SENATOR. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That he ate at regularly, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain foods, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. SENATOR. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cabana Motel.

Mr. SENATOR. The Cabana?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack has been down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have friends there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly probably does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course, I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack see Ralph?

Mr. SENATOR. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they telephone each other during the week also?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain there were telephone calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?

Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever have occasion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue places.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?

Mr. SENATOR. By phone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in person?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no, but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh, no; the club wasn’t even open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after the President was killed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might have.

Mr. SENATOR. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t even see her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know her husband?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what.

The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation. Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. T-o-n-i?

Mr. SENATOR. T-o-n-y it says here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know. I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay, or what it is. That is all I know on this one. One here says Porter. I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a porter, or what it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a girl’s name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?

Mr. SENATOR. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had in Mexico City?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?

Mr. SENATOR. To Mexico City?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Not while I knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?

Mr. SENATOR. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba. Now, that is before my relation with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear this from Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about someone named Billie?

Mr. SENATOR. B-i-l-l-i-e?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Is that a man or a woman?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.

Mr. SENATOR. Is there a telephone number?

Mr. GRIFFIN. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?

Mr. SENATOR. I think that is a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Towney?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam George?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?

Mr. SENATOR. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the same one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steel?

Mr. SENATOR. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there?

Mr. SENATOR. No, and I don’t want to hear of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?

Mr. SENATOR. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?

Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not sure. I can’t make it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago.

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan?

Mr. SENATOR. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a club for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, a private club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he is in California or from California?

Mr. SENATOR. From California, and back there. He is back in California.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he was, before or after. No, I don’t really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to return to California?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He said he was going back to California. I met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with your sister?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or December. I think it may have been December.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So some time after——

Mr. SENATOR. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if I remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to live with your sister?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California?

Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why?

Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. As a friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure. I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?

Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger?

Mr. SENATOR. Tiger?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?

Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other.

Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don’t know what.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last I heard, I think he was living in New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a place in another section of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest, Love Field?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers. He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the barber shaves you back here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck?

Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too fast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast when it is shaved off?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them off. He wants them clipped off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather than shaved?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who knows just what to do with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff, you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t know what the stuff was, you know.

I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he couldn’t stand being bald.

He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”. And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or was this something that had come on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the nature of the word they used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of the day that he would do this?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day some time, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer than a woman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?

Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound, although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that was perhaps stitched at the back or something.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I assume it is Jack’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas?

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that name through any association you had with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the girl or not, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the names there.

Mr. SENATOR. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but I am not sure. The others I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any other names on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6?

Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7. Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?

Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?

Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die?

Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all their life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2 years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with Mr. Gimpel?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I have never seen him sell them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or industrial tools?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I think that is what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single?

Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no rent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil Hamlin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which union.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or something like that?

Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I ever seen the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection?

Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says Grapevine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13.

Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that.

Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know who this is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn’t have a page number.

Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don’t know it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; where he got it, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on it, Sam Schwartz.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit 5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that.

Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby’s book? I can’t picture him writing like that. This is terrible handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do you recognize the handwriting in that book?

Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize it as Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think it is. I don’t think this is Jack Ruby’s handwriting. Jack don’t write this bad. This is terrible writing. I don’t think that is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written some words such as “Save, Vegas Club, Jack’s home,” and so forth. And there is the name Buddy, with the words “Fort Worth” written after it, and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have, I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a telephone number under it. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles’ number?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the number offhand; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St. Charles?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby’s twistboards?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably, this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting looks like Andrew’s, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I think it is. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboards.

Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of the twistboards?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he didn’t know anything about the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can’t say. It is possible that he did, but I would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can’t say positively. I don’t think he did. Now, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman, which I mentioned before to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even read the first name. It looks like Leona or Lena.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona?

Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. This says Mar-Din?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn’t know who that is. Earl Products.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is nothing on there that you haven’t talked about. Look at page 3.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even understand what that last name is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what it is anyhow, but I can’t even read the last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any of those names there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay.

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned Stanley Kaufman.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously.

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex. Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn’t know him by his first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman is——

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The other Turman we talked about is Nick Turman?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know who that is. Now, see, he is known by his fighting name, is Buddy Turman and, of course, that is all I recall. I never knew it was Floyd, but he is billed, and everything else, as Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 4 there is the name Buddy Heard. Did you know Buddy Heard?

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Heard, yes. He is an entertainer who worked for Jack once, I would probably say about two years ago was the last time he was in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack maintained a relationship with him recently?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say it was approximately, it must have been approximately two years ago. He worked for him, I think, one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say “no” to my question about Jack maintaining a relationship with him recently?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names that you see there on the back of page 4? Do you recognize any of those?

Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? Is this Burt?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt. Did you know a Burt?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to direct your attention to page 5 because page 5 doesn’t have anything on it. I believe it has nothing on it that we haven’t already talked about. The back of page 5 has the name “Jerry Lindsay”. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Floorman, that is the man that worked on the floor or did some work for him, or something, but I don’t recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name of Leo? Do you know anybody named Leo?

Mr. SENATOR. Leo Tardi? He worked for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Tardi. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he work for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. The last time he worked for Jack, he had worked both clubs, you know, the Vegas and that one there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of work did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. After the shooting he worked up at the club at nights and, of course, he was a salesman in the daytime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what kind of work?

Mr. SENATOR. He took the tickets in, you know, the $2 admission fees.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he sell during the daytime?

Mr. SENATOR. I think clothing in a store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what department store he worked for?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or what store?

Mr. SENATOR. No. It was in one of the downtown stores there. I don’t know which one it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to pass over the front half of page 6 because there is nothing written on there that appears to be a name, and I will direct your attention to the back of page 6. Do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him, at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Gifford?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anything else on there?

Mr. SENATOR. What is this supposed to say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. S-c-h-r-o-l-l.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at the front of page 7. Do you recognize any of those names?

Mr. SENATOR. This particular Leonard I have mentioned to you before, the booking agent. The thing is to read these things. Who can read them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me help you, if I can.

Mr. SENATOR. What does the top one say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Roskydall.

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Lenard you mentioned. E. J. Evans?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. What is this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Groveland?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stevens Park Beauty Salon?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maisl Brothers?

Mr. SENATOR. Boy, I tell you, you do all right with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The back of page 7, I will read these off to you. Ed McMulmore. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. McKinney?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The front of page 8; Leonard Wood?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Milton Thomas?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Clarence McInnis?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James Dotson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James T. Aycox?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nothing on the back of page 8 or the front of page 9. Page 9, the back is blank. Page 10 is blank on both sides. Page 11 is a half sheet which is blank on both sides. Page 12 I won’t direct your attention to because there are no names on there. The back of page 12, the only name that appears on here is Bill Remike. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is the name, Bobby Patterson.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 13. I will turn over to the back of page 13. There is the name, Tex Lacy, which we talked about before.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about that name, but I don’t know what capacity Tex Lacy is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I said the back of page 13. Now on page 14, which is about a third of a sheet of paper, there is the name Frank Fisher. Did you know Frank Fisher?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Fisher was a trumpet player and the leader of his band at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of a band?

Mr. SENATOR. In the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what else did he do besides performance as a musician?

Mr. SENATOR. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he an interior decorator?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. If he was, that is news to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you or did you know in the week or so before the President was shot whether Jack was considering opening up any new night club?

Mr. SENATOR. He had talked about one. I have never seen it. But he was talking about a location that he had mentioned on McKinney Avenue. I think this was a house type place and, as far as I know, nothing ever materialized or whatever it was going to be. This is the only thing I knew about it. He never took me over there. I have never seen it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack going to finance it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That I didn’t know. Possibly he may have been looking for a partner. I don’t know, or how or what I don’t know. You’ve got me there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I won’t mention the back of page 14 because there is nothing there. Clark Boland, does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it seems that is a radio station there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Herman Flowers?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. K. Hamilton. That is the front of page 16.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller, Collins Radio?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Cody City Hall; do you now anybody by that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jimmie Rhodes, do you know him?

Mr. SENATOR. The name sounds like I heard of it, but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Wooldridge?

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Litchfield?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Moddy?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back cover is written the name Newton.

Mr. SENATOR. The only name I know of a Newton would be John Newton of the newspaper. If that is him or not, I don’t know, because this is a telephone number, I assume, isn’t it, but there is no prefix to it. Maybe this is it now. I don’t even know if that is him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to look at the Earl Warren sign, “Impeach Earl Warren” sign, on Friday, or was it Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack write anything down?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I didn’t see him write anything down. I can’t quote if he did or didn’t, but I didn’t see him. I will put it that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any newspapers in the car with him?

Mr. SENATOR. That day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I really don’t know. I just don’t refresh my mind if he did have any newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive Jack’s car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he drove it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest now we probably ought to break to two-thirty.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m. the proceeding recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been under at the outset.

Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some other names.

Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That’s right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of pushups from him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbells?

Mr. SENATOR. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am not sure. Barbells, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you met some man or you heard of some man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting goods, then it——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know of this man?

Mr. SENATOR. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well, it couldn’t have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn’t living with Jack then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In November of 1963 you were.

Mr. SENATOR. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him. When you mentioned—was it November?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; because——

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was still living in my same apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You met him——

Mr. SENATOR. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the latter part of the summer of 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out and had a bite to eat, and that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And can you describe him? How old a man was he?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he is around about 6 foot. I don’t remember the color of his eyes, black, brown, or blue. I don’t remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man was he?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to know this fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you learn about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t learn anything about him. I knew he was selling these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a plant or something out there I know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber.

Mr. SENATOR. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Alex Gruber.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were going through the notebooks?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe you indicated you didn’t recognize that name.

Mr. SENATOR. Not the name; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck driver?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. A truck driver?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a dog to in California?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. I have heard that mentioned before. I have heard it mentioned. I don’t remember now if I read it in the newspaper or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. J. McWillie?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don’t know him. Is it McWillie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.

Mr. SENATOR. All I know is the name McWillie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about that name?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know him. Never met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you heard the name?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an old friend of Jack’s at one time or another. From where, what or how, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of course, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail presently, in the penitentiary?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down there. Now who the man is, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he is, I don’t know. I don’t know the man. As a matter of fact I don’t even know the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention having met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio program.

Mr. SENATOR. He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I understand; oh, well, I didn’t know what all his activities are, but the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the name of the President—I mean that well known, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put out by H. L. Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of offhand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. That is his son, I think. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any political organizations?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in some public issue, or something.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your practice with respect to using Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. What was what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby’s telephone at home. I take it you used it to make local calls.

Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from Jack’s home?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t think I ever have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. I have called him, but I don’t think I have ever called him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don’t know if I have ever or not. I can’t quote and say “Yes, I did,” or “Yes, I didn’t.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November 22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. On November 22?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Friday, November 22.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day, on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. On Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any toll calls on that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. When I say I don’t think so, I don’t remember if I did or not, but I don’t think so. I don’t want to say “No” positively or “Yes” positive, because I am not sure. I just don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard called that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if he did or not. As I say, I can’t be quoted, because I ain’t positive. I can’t say yes or no because I don’t remember on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no longer in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. The following Tuesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?

Mr. SENATOR. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, “Andrew, where is Larry?” I said, “I didn’t see him yesterday either,” or something like that, to that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, “When did he leave?” He said he had left Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andrew know that?

Mr. SENATOR. He said—I think now he said he took $8 from the till, or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first time I ever knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at the trial, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry?

Mr. SENATOR. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; he was at the trial?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness bench one day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he left?

Mr. SENATOR. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact, I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the afternoon.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say that you left the house around noon on Saturday.

Mr. SENATOR. Something like that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have to do on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t imagine. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with your business?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t work that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the groceries you bought?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not. I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an afternoon, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been in the afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having spent some time at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. I know I was there that day, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean Saturday afternoon.

Mr. SENATOR. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was there, and that we went some other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Downey before——

Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you——

Mr. SENATOR. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or 8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we went to this other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in the afternoon and the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?

Mr. SENATOR. Was I troubled when I went with him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Saturday afternoon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean did I think about it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or why he wanted to snap the pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and had coffee with him that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out to see that Earl Warren sign?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a shaken-up day for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about that particular episode?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you feel that way?

Mr. SENATOR. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign, whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these things, why should they be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that——

Mr. SENATOR. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren? Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I don’t know the answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the Southland Hotel to have coffee.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these had bypassed my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two signs?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the newspaper ad, when they took my statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I guess it was on Monday——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification, this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that advertisement and about the sign?

Mr. SENATOR. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to know why somebody would want to impeach him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing, or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy of the trial was going to be?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talking with people?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately, that this would be a justification?

Mr. SENATOR. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the President was coming into town that day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what he was going to do with this information that he got?

Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a newspaper?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches and things of that nature there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it was related to me, over the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t tell any of that to the——

Mr. SENATOR. To who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police department when you talked to them on the 24th, did you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. See, you must understand——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being, wouldn’t it shake a human being up?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it the police department asked you to tell them everything you knew about what Jack had done.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty well shaken up at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that his being at the police department might hurt him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also——

Mr. SENATOR. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention——

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time, being shook up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave the police department on the 24th——

Mr. SENATOR. Didn’t what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the statement that you gave to the police department on the 24th.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t mention what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from Little Lynn.

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you. I was in a shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in your own mind that those events which you omitted——

Mr. SENATOR. Was I trying to hide something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack.

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t trying to hide anything. I definitely was not trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated, any individual in an event like this, now I can’t speak for anybody else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can’t remember things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that instantaneous—I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some of these things, but you didn’t remember some other things which were just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that impeach Earl Warren sign—that must have just stood out as a sore thumb to you.

Mr. SENATOR. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things that I mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too. There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense.

Mr. SENATOR. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the moment, when all these things were happening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400,” and I will sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on November 24, 1963.

Mr. SENATOR. Is that the man who had me? I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true.

Mr. SENATOR. That is, that is my signature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the statement you signed?

Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed by an agent of the FBI.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI, the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you learned of Oswald’s being shot just as you walked in the door of the Eatwell Restaurant.

Mr. SENATOR. Just as I walked in? No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn’t walking in the door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. SENATOR. No; before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was before you learned that?

Mr. SENATOR. Right. I called him—wait, wait. No; that is right. I did. But I wasn’t home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter, one of his little girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you learned that Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot—that is when I called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the FBI’s report on November 24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked in the door.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn’t remember that on November 24?

Mr. SENATOR. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say it to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It was pretty loud.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a TV set on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t know. She got her information through either the phone, or they may have had a little radio. I don’t remember just what it was, because I wasn’t looking directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she was behind the counter, and I was sitting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the person who shot him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn’t long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m going to mark a document which I have before me in the following manner: “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator, Deposition Exhibit 5401,” and I am going to sign my name to it.

This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr. Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time.

I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects what you told them at that time. If it doesn’t, why, will you point out the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can’t correct it.

Mr. SENATOR. Shall I make little notations here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there some places you want to change?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you mark on it—why don’t you do this——

Mr. SENATOR. It will only be a dot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just take this paper and make some notes on it and then we can go back.

Mr. SENATOR. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point them out to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got some changes to make there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I had better go over it with you though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you read the sentence or sentences that you would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on to the next one. Go right ahead and read it.

Mr. SENATOR. It says here, “He had only casual association with him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until approximately 3 years ago.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on page 296 of the FBI report?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Now it wasn’t 3 years ago at the time. This was 2 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up until 2 years ago?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or somewheres in there of 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change with your pen, strike out the word “three.”

Mr. SENATOR. On this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On that. And write “two.”

Mr. SENATOR. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And then initial it and date it.

Mr. SENATOR. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these lines. Shall I put my initial after it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You won’t be able to see it. These writings here don’t coincide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your relationship with Jack. Up until approximately March or April of 1962 when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When you say closer, this is when I first started to—you know, when I was down and out and I first started to work for him, and I was living with him. You see what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is March or April of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say either February, March, or April, something like that. I don’t remember that I was living with him, because previous to that I still didn’t see him any more than I ever did in the past.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom you saw more frequently than Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything but that up until that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis?

Mr. SENATOR. Actually I couldn’t see him frequently. Before that I was traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn’t home every weekend. There were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week from coming home. It all depends on the location you are—if you are too far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all depends, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the people that you saw on a social basis?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you, these people I don’t see every day, or like, you know, say I see them today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions I saw Don Taber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These were all rare, mind you, then. See, I did more meeting. I met a lot of people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody has a favorite hangout.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that Burgundy Room was yours?

Mr. SENATOR. This is mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long has it been your favorite hangout?

Mr. SENATOR. Ever since I came to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a place you would go almost every day?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say more so than any other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you go there almost every day?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not every day, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three times a week?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends there—after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered, transient or local, from 5 on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club would be to a wealthier man?

Mr. SENATOR. That is of that nature, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were certain other people who used to hang around there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby one of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in. Jack is not a drinking man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be fair to say that for recreation and pastime——

Mr. SENATOR. Just as one of my hangouts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a few drinks?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in. Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not a man who spends his spare time——

Mr. SENATOR. Not particularly, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Playing golf or tennis?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you—the only habit I got is I like to cook, this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may recreate in—I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why Jack Ruby didn’t like me. You are not writing that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you like to experiment with food?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in kitchens. I done this for a long time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you worked in a number of restaurants?

Mr. SENATOR. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years ago, but I wasn’t classified as any cook or any thing of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook?

Mr. SENATOR. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mix things——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Salads?

Mr. SENATOR. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that, or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people can’t make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited many times, and I do put on a good rib plate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place for dinner?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I mean this—I relished, I have been invited over to people’s homes. Jim Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it was fun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Jack didn’t appreciate your cooking?

Mr. SENATOR. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn’t eat it because he classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is when we were having lunch.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t pull out an avocado salad today as I did yesterday.

Mr. SENATOR. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good enough answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there are some other things in that statement or that interview report that I think you want to change.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. These don’t look like my words. I don’t say that some of these aren’t factors, you know, but I don’t see, I don’t think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to bring that out.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next sentence. It says, “Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years.” Now I don’t even know what that means.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t understand it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer to Ruby but you couldn’t explain to them why you were closer to Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this to myself again? This don’t make sense to me. Maybe I don’t understand what I am reading, what I have read to you. Do you want to go over it with me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. This part I read to you, start there, “Thereafter.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. “Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby.”

In other words, they are saying that you couldn’t explain why you felt closer to Ruby in this recent period.

Mr. SENATOR. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that closer, just moving in? It doesn’t necessarily mean being close to him. I mean, this I don’t understand. What do they mean when they say—how can you just move in with somebody and say, say you are that close to him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by being close to him? If you had just gone in and had always known him casually——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn’t part of the reason that you felt closer to him in recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw him more often.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI interview report of your having moved in with Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. In so many words, though, doesn’t it sound the same to you? “... than in the past 3 years”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but it doesn’t mention that in the past 3 years you moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn’t lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the fact that you began to see him every day, whereas before——

Mr. SENATOR. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place, but that is the way I am interpreting it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s let it stand for the record, then, that you did not automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with him.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your moving in with him was not the result of having established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack’s taking you in when you didn’t have a place to live and didn’t have any money. Is that it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to know, of these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place to live and so he invited you in with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I identified myself that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you could move in?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember just how it was, but I was not in good condition, I was hurting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And had there been something about Jack before that that had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would respond like this?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this, and after that, and I have seen it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had taken in other people or done things for other people?

Mr. SENATOR. The example number one is the chap that I told you is deceased—I don’t say this man was hurting, but he was still living in Jack’s apartment for free.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?

Mr. SENATOR. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack’s apartment for free. I don’t say he was hurting for money, which I don’t know because I didn’t know his business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew Gimpel had been living with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know Gimpel that way, just from running across him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be willing to take you in?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn’t know what was going to happen, but he took me in. I have seen other instances like this chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds.

I don’t know what it was, but this kid here didn’t have the right time. He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back.

And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once—Larry didn’t have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, “Larry, we’ll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front teeth.” This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to grab a bite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment.

Mr. SENATOR. The new place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You made the decision——

Mr. SENATOR. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn’t even ready.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in there?

Mr. SENATOR. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months?

Mr. SENATOR. But not at this place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at another place.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the man better.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job you wanted to move out from him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of the rent.

Mr. SENATOR. Particularly one. I told you he didn’t keep a very clean place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a beggar—beggars can’t be choosers, that is an old saying, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out, something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me. But in the overall picture he would rather live alone.

And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of the apartments he may live in, and I don’t know how many he has lived in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night, 2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he had a rough bringing up and growing up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about that to you?

Mr. SENATOR. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know, the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn’t know how drunk his father used to be, but I understand he was a habitual——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the kids were all separated, things of that nature, when they were young. One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A lot of these things I never even knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this conclusion that you are now drawing——

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of the things he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know about that when you were living with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much, very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There, of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back all these years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit 5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what was told to the FBI at that time.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet”.

Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing, Dallas, Tex.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; well, that is inaccurate?

Mr. SENATOR. You know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit that. I don’t think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record is sufficiently clear.

Mr. SENATOR. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t lying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is inaccurate.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:

“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”.

This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him 5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a day or two?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It never happened?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview took place?

Mr. SENATOR. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day, could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would have been shaken up as well as I.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually happened.

Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there” I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.

Mr. SENATOR. Now here is a point:

“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and Commerce in downtown Dallas.”

Now this was before I got to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had known Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have known him; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he only had the Vegas?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club, I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think that this deposition will clear this up.

Mr. SENATOR. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the individual’s name, but I know it now.

“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator was unable to furnish this individual’s name.”

But we have talked about that name today.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton.

Mr. SENATOR. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.”

Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the conditions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to disclose this?

Mr. SENATOR. No. You mean to hold back on them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it sounds when you say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.

“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to go on to the next page?

Mr. SENATOR. I am through with that page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.

Mr. SENATOR. What is I.E., the initials?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring to is,

“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat the same on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.”

In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew” comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business expressing political opinions, and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no business expressing——

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things, things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This language which we have been quoting arises in a paragraph that starts out:

“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even discussed political matters.”

Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that now your present opinion is that you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him feel that he shouldn’t have this kind of——

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way.

Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t laugh these things off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent lack of interest in politics?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?

Mr. SENATOR. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his primary interest?

Mr. SENATOR. Show business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important interest to him?

Mr. SENATOR. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human being.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other paragraphs that you would change or correct.

Mr. SENATOR. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually carried a fairly large sum of money.”

Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this is the point I want to bring out:

“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry it back and forth between the club and his home.”

This was an everyday occurrence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried it back and forth every day?

Mr. SENATOR. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment or did he keep it in his car?

Mr. SENATOR. He kept it in his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He kept it in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in a moneybag?

Mr. SENATOR. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.

Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the Carousel Club, or don’t you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching every move Jack Ruby made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking for a bag all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up occasionally to the club?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up. If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in a bag?

Mr. SENATOR. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in the bag.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.

Mr. SENATOR. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these things, shoulder? I have never seen one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part is that?

Mr. SENATOR. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to use that term?

Mr. SENATOR. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say “This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit more than anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally you are not a homosexual.

Mr. SENATOR. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that Georgie still loves women yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a homosexual, but I am not suggesting——

Mr. SENATOR. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong, but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about your affection for women?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr. Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted. It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing, Mr. Alexander said to me:

“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.”

He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?”

I said, “Two.”

He says, “What are the other rooms?”

I says, “There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room.”

Then he come out with this live one, which I grasped right away. This is what I call it.

“Where do you keep the TV?”

I didn’t particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mr. SENATOR. I said, “In the living room,” where it is. But I caught the drift right away. And I wasn’t happy about that because I couldn’t open my mouth because I was on the witness stand.

Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; very clear.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t quote the rest of it because he put it down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, I am interested.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching TV. Is that easy?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that logical?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base something like this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it he didn’t follow it up in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. Not the second time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t attempt to discredit your statement that it was kept in the living room?

Mr. SENATOR. No. And when he didn’t bring that up at all on the witness stand——

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the trial?

Mr. SENATOR. At the trial. There is something here; I don’t know what it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time I came home that Friday night—he said between 9 and 10.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think it was?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say between 10 and 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home at, say 10 o’clock? Did you work the rest of that day?

Mr. SENATOR. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. That was a day I will tell you I don’t think a living soul in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I’ll tell you that is what it was; it was a weeping day for the city.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from Jack’s when you first heard this news?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I went downtown; did a little deskwork again. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talk out loud and then we can correct it.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure what it was. I don’t remember anymore. I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around downtown in the area. No particular place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern?

Mr. SENATOR. Probably so; probably so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t recollect. It was a very sad day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us. I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can’t think where you were that day, and who you talked to.

Mr. SENATOR. In all probability I probably spoke to many people downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat, or something of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you wouldn’t have been in a department store or a drugstore, someplace like that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I mean I don’t know. A department store; definitely I haven’t been in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are talking about someplace where you could get a drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you spend all day watching the events on television?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I think I was in the downtown area. I think I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken. I don’t remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown uptown. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to be drunk or anything of that nature, I don’t think I was drunk that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor, from what you said before. You feel that you are?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that I wonder if——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I got to be careful when I’m driving because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but good trouble, and I don’t want to get in that condition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it isn’t a fair impression to draw——

Mr. SENATOR. If it isn’t what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If I couldn’t fairly infer that you had been drinking most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although you don’t feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren’t in control of yourself.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I was in control of myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time you heard the President was shot until you went home that night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have anything to do with your failure to recollect what you had done that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I was that tight; no. I just don’t remember where I navigated that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you suggest again—and I keep throwing the same question back to you—can you think or suggest someone that you saw that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I saw—I keep on bringing up this attorney all the while, Jim Martin. I don’t know if I saw him, called him, or went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home, between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don’t know if I met him that day or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you have dinner that night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even think I had dinner that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason why. I just didn’t; that is all. I didn’t even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when I am out I am free.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wasn’t somebody that you did things with; is that fair to say?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t do much with him; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And part of the reason was Jack didn’t drink? Wasn’t that probably part of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t like me drinking and Jack don’t like to see me go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don’t know if you have ever been there while you were down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t.

Mr. SENATOR. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that you can go to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much?

Mr. SENATOR. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer and he will say, “You are drunk, aren’t you?” He will pull this on me. He has pulled it many a time on me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he feel that way about other people?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know about other people. But he didn’t like me drinking. He said it to me many a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal habits as much as Jack appears to have done?

Mr. SENATOR. In all reality, it didn’t bother me. I didn’t care what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He sort of treated you like you were his son?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; no. He just didn’t like to have me drink; that is all. He felt I was wasting—believe it or not, here is a man with a club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn’t afford to be throwing my money away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in you, or was this just Jack’s desire to dominate people?

Mr. SENATOR. Dominate? I don’t know if “dominate” would be the word. But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of anything you had done for him?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he helped me out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you see, I don’t argue back with him. I don’t know if he likes this or not, you know. I don’t want to argue with him. So I “Yes” him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn’t bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn’t bother me because with me I knew there was no harm that would be done. But the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; let’s go on there on page 298 from where we were.

Mr. SENATOR. It says, “Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily keeps at the Carousel home with him.” He brings this same dog home every night. And when it says, “Ruby and Senator arose,” it is like we woke up at the same time. That is not so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the correct statement of this would be that——

Mr. SENATOR. I woke up before he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps Sheba——

Mr. SENATOR. Always brings Sheba home every night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the club every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Both forth and back, forth and back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we don’t have to make any entry on the page.

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, the other is what we discussed before about the signs that you have on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?

Mr. SENATOR. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says, to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. “He estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been shot.” This is not so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after you sat down?

Mr. SENATOR. I had been sitting already.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on page 300 or page 299?

Mr. SENATOR. 299. Now he got this twisted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the part that is twisted.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. “Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby. He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew.” We went through that. Do you want to go through that again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have told the agent that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; when the waitress said that she heard Oswald had been shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home in a short while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin, you couldn’t get ahold of him, but you talked to his daughter.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is his daughter?

Mr. SENATOR. He had three of them, and I don’t remember which one answered. Of course, one is too young. I don’t know which one he went to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling? Did you leave word?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George called. I am not sure if I did or not. I don’t want to say I did and I don’t want to say I didn’t, because I don’t remember. No; I didn’t leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left right after this call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying?

Mr. SENATOR. “He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his car and drove to the attorney’s house to wait for his return.” This I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of coffee, when this girl hollered out again, “the Carousel, Jack Ruby,” which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don’t I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. Go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me run this through. I don’t catch the last part of this: “He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of the clubs in which Ruby was interested.” Does that mean, in other words, the clubs that Jack owned?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. All right; OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion:

“Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day.” That refers to Friday.

Mr. SENATOR. November 24.

Mr. GRIFFIN. November 22.

Mr. SENATOR. Twenty-second; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. “But does know that, because of the shooting of the President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business. Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister’s home for awhile.” Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he had some recollection that he had been at his sister’s home for awhile. You didn’t mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now, come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention the synagogue. You didn’t mention that he had been to the police station. You didn’t mention——

Mr. SENATOR. You must understand, like I told you before, you know, when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken condition and nervous—and you can’t help but be nervous—so I may have slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn’t think of momentarily when he was questioning me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you really didn’t know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn’t even tell you this on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see him Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday morning, that he didn’t tell you Saturday morning that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told you that?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How else would I have known that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking with somebody or reading something.

Mr. SENATOR. Why would I want—let me ask you this—why would I want to leave out that he went to the police station—if I were able to think of it—or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went to the synagogue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I am suggesting that you didn’t know that on the 24th, that it wasn’t until later.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know it on the 24th. I didn’t know it. I didn’t see him. I didn’t know it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to the synagogue.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You learned about that sometime after the 24th.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I learned it before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have remembered.

Mr. SENATOR. You asked what makes something slip a man’s mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wouldn’t you be more likely to remember he had been to the police station than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he had done there, wouldn’t that have been something that you would have remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn’t you? You would have asked the man “What did you see down at the police station? Who did you talk to down there?” After all, that was right down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going on.

Mr. SENATOR. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is an incident I just happened to think of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn’t been distributed, and—I don’t know—I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made, but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of sandwiches were they?

Mr. SENATOR. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too, that he bought in the delicatessen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that recall anything further to your mind?

Mr. SENATOR. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed this. It don’t matter who is questioning me, this is the first time. Now why didn’t I think of this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is not so extraordinary.

Mr. SENATOR. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period of time——

Mr. SENATOR. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I gather I can remember this part, this one here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those sandwiches?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had been to the police station and he had passed out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don’t know who. I don’t know who he passed them out to.

But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them made. Now why I did it I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from him, you asked him “Where did you get these sandwiches” and he said “I got them for the men at the police station but they didn’t eat them”? Could that have been the conversation?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take the sandwiches to his sister?

Mr. SENATOR. That was sometime Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you learn that?

Mr. SENATOR. From Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again——

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see his sister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask, well, you know, what was going on in the investigation.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact, I don’t even know what part of the police station he was in, or any locale of the police station he was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I am not sure of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t know whether you knew that on the 24th or not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember. I can’t say “Yes” or say “No,” or what rooms he was in. I don’t know just where he went at the police station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat them up?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if I didn’t eat but one or two I would be a fool, wouldn’t I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the windup was when he got around to home, he didn’t have that many left already.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw 8 or 10 in the paper bags.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I can’t eat 8 or 10 sandwiches.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s take a break.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked, and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and I have marked a further “Exhibit 5403,” which exhibit is a copy of an FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963.

Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963. Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you would want to make in Mr. Moore’s report, and I specifically point out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether Mr. Moore’s report is an accurate report of what you told him on that day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this under the same procedures and formalities that we have had since the beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is still in effect.

Mr. SENATOR. Now on this here, of course, this goes back many, many years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Point out what it is.

Mr. SENATOR. “About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida.” Now, Sebring, it is a city, not people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t leave with the Sebring family?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.?

Mr. SENATOR. Went to Sebring, Fla.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with?

Mr. SENATOR. The name was Eggens.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were neighbors from Gloversville?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of course, today their whereabouts—I know the mother is deceased—and where they are I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in a zillion years.

“On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned serial number 12006042.” I probably should comment is off there. It doesn’t really make any difference. “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War Second.”

There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In fact why don’t you take your pen and make that correction right on the piece of paper?

Mr. SENATOR. How can I get it on there, they are so close together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Cross out something and write it in.

Mr. SENATOR. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that is inaccurate in there?

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb Squadron.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you want to do is write out in the margin.

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to cross this out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron. Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was.

Mr. SENATOR. 22d Bomber Group.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to indicate where you want it to go.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how important it is, if you want the Fifth Air Force before or we can eliminate it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In order to identify that group that you were in——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Write Fifth Air Force in.

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on top here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. SENATOR. Fifth Air Force comes first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So we have edited this to read “He served mainly as an aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War II.” Why don’t you initial and date the changes?

Mr. SENATOR. Is one sufficient for the whole?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it is April 22.

Mr. SENATOR. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it somewheres on something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to find that. I think you did make that change. You didn’t date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401.

Mr. SENATOR. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and say “He was honorably discharged” or just “discharged satisfactory.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably discharged.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a difference.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You have added on page 2 of Agent Moore’s report in the first sentence the word “Honorably” so that that sentence reads “He was honorably.”

Mr. SENATOR. I should say honorably discharged.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September 9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former wife is now married.

Mr. SENATOR. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I didn’t spell it right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last sentence, you have added the words “Texas Postcards and Novelty, Dallas, Texas” before the words “Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York” so that that sentence reads: “He is presently a salesman of colored postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York.” Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard and Novelty Company and Dexter Press——

Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter Postcard?

Mr. SENATOR. No: I don’t sell them for Dexter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Dexter Press?

Mr. SENATOR. Dexter are the ones who make prints.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me add the word “from.” I have added the word “from.” I will hand you back Mr. Moore’s report. Why don’t you continue on through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and then we will make the changes.

Mr. SENATOR. This “He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a place called Jacques,” now shall I put in front of lunch——

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is understood you didn’t have anything to eat but had something to drink. A cocktail or something?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that changed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you cross out “lunch” and say “two bottles of beer.”

Mr. SENATOR. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don’t even remember. I ain’t going to question this. You know that I just changed that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles of beer?

Mr. SENATOR. “Two beers.” Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you want that corrected?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would.

Mr. SENATOR. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine.

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that initialed?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would please.

Mr. SENATOR. “He returned to the apartment and went to bed approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that day.” It is not recall seeing him, I didn’t see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change recall to didn’t.

Mr. SENATOR. Now I stated here for the point of information before that “Jack told him” which is me “that he had been at his sister Eva’s place,” said that he had bought food for her.” In other words, when he bought all this stuff there he bought her some too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth before he went to Eva Grant’s house on Friday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them, are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? I don’t even know myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It depends. Of course I wasn’t at this interview.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that. This is why I asked you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our court stenographer is here.

Mr. SENATOR. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not easy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are trained to take notes.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are mistakes that crop up.

Mr. SENATOR. Who isn’t fallible somewhere or another. I think there is a misinterpretation of this word that “he had bought food for her.” Brought food for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it make any difference?

Mr. SENATOR. Not in all reality, I don’t know, because when he bought all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don’t know but apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he couldn’t go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had brought over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don’t make any reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station.

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible—now this interview was not under the same kind of pressure?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn’t mentioned anything about going to the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff, when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags, this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody that I spoke to, see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now keep in mind the distinction between what Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through completely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn’t possible that you learned about Jack’s going to the police station after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that you didn’t tell this to the police and you didn’t tell it to the FBI and you didn’t tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about the sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the FBI, and you knew about going to Eva’s, but at that point you didn’t know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station.

Mr. SENATOR. The only way that I can really express this, it could be a probability and then it couldn’t, in other words, I can’t answer the question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I say on that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, this is what we are trying to get at.

Mr. SENATOR. I still ain’t sure if I did or didn’t mind you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the thing that I want to explore here is whether——

Mr. SENATOR. But I knew about the sandwiches the next day because I saw them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew about the sandwiches, right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at is whether you knew about Jack’s visit to the police station and I am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th about Jack’s visit to the police station, you would have had some further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said to you, “George, I just was down to the police station and I took some sandwiches down there” on this particular day, why you would have said to me, “Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of investigation?” That visit to the police station would have been a more important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don’t seem to recall any such conversation.

Mr. SENATOR. It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can’t answer you now. I just don’t remember now. I was sort of under the impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can’t say yes or no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did or didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any clear recollection?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any conversation about his being down at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t remember, so in other words this is a thing I would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even sure of. “Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were a Jew he should be ashamed of himself.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your feeling about that now.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t ever remember telling him that. Now I don’t say that I did or didn’t, but I don’t know why I had the reason to say that he didn’t spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute “that he did not spell his name as a Jew” I just can’t figure why I would say that because Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name. This is the part I don’t understand on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar about this ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday before the President arrived?

Mr. SENATOR. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Something makes you think it was Thursday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that that makes you think that?

Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don’t remember. Was it Friday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I don’t know.

Mr. SENATOR. It was a Friday’s paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on Thursday night, does it not?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if the paper is out at that hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did the night before the President came to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what I did Thursday at all. I don’t know what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read what he has and then let’s talk about it.

Mr. SENATOR. “They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell.” Then it continues, but the thing is this is reversed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What you are saying is that you went to the post office before you had coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get it straight then as to what actually happened there.

Mr. SENATOR. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right except the reversal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order.

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to say this was first and the other was last. I don’t know how to do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You read the text that is improper.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what you mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the point that it gets out of order.

Mr. SENATOR. What I just read where it was out of order?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two things out of order, let me understand this, are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after you went to the post office?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. Now do you want some change in here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I think that is clear.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete thing is right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have corrected it on the record?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have——

Mr. SENATOR. He says about which is all right. He has got a time there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe I ain’t reading this correct. “He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What is unclear about that?

Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the police station. This is the way it sounds to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station, you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual basis and intended to come back.

Mr. SENATOR. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba with him. That I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you draw any particular significance about his having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning——

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I’m not reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the way I read it——

Mr. SENATOR. You read it. Start with “He said.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let’s read the sentence before that.

“Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon. Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car. Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the police station he went out of his head.”

Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby intended to come back from the police station before he went down there.

Do you still feel that way?

Mr. SENATOR. That he intended to come back?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended—are you saying that if Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police station, he wouldn’t have taken Sheba along?

Mr. SENATOR. That isn’t what I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not what you said?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the police station with Sheba.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all. What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you think he might have anyhow?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there?

Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no plans. Now the money part——

Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned, let’s assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I definitely don’t think he would ever take the dog with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he have done with the dog?

Mr. SENATOR. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog, and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wouldn’t figure that you or somebody else wouldn’t have picked that dog up later and taken care of it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or isn’t it possible that Jack just at this point forgot about the consequences to the dog?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba with him doesn’t prove one way or another whether he planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he planned nohow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you don’t think that, but I want to know what significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn’t prove conclusively one way or another that he had a plan or didn’t have a plan.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to kill Oswald or not? Would you still say——

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it would still be of the same nature having the dog. I don’t think he would do anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don’t think he planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I can’t visualize anything like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement this language: “Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car.” Now I take it from that language that you are saying that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn’t have had any cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don’t know. First of all, he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don’t say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let’s suppose he had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club.

Mr. SENATOR. What safe?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t he have a safe there?

Mr. SENATOR. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe, I’ll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did you ever see these little round things that fit into the——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever used the safe I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack ever put his money——

Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you can’t get to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his money in the bank?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car?

Mr. SENATOR. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his pocket, and he had it around the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in the safe?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I know he leaves some at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever kind of lock you call it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room. See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there, see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry all of his money on his person and in his car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far as not carrying it all in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than keeping it in the house.

Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you say this was the longest time that you can remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I never said that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you mean to say?

Mr. SENATOR. I never said that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000 or $3,000?

Mr. SENATOR. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him. This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all that money in his automobile.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in the bank, I mean I can’t quote that because I don’t see that. See, he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was yesterday, I don’t know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don’t know if the guy has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don’t know.

Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don’t know how many times he asked me, “George, where is my money?” making me feel like I took it but he always misplaced it and always found it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced?

Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I don’t know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different stakes in different pockets. This man don’t remember where the money is. This may sound crazy but it is true.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack own any real estate?

Mr. SENATOR. No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate? A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money. Jack didn’t. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how much it was.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don’t know how much money he has got and I can’t break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5 or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has been 2, 3, 4, maybe more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What, hundred or thousand dollars?

Mr. SENATOR. Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the utilities and things. But he is a walking bank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money around?

Mr. SENATOR. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people knew it I don’t know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when the help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I can’t quote how much money he had at any time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now let me ask you to read over what I have marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in the same fashion as we have with the others.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren’t but let me make sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview made at your request?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they have something more to tell them.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I am, I don’t think is too happy about all this. And who would be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last 2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your life.

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly it is. It ain’t going to do my life any good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the feelings here on the record that you gave to me?

Mr. SENATOR. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace?

Mr. SENATOR. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance. They will always point to Jack Ruby’s roommate, Jack Ruby’s roommate, something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That means that they don’t know whether the spelling is correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that you have read so far——

Mr. SENATOR. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the punchy side, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No; there is one item in here where it states “He carried his money in a sack.” This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in the sack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The trunk of the car?

Mr. SENATOR. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the sack it goes in the trunk of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else in that interview report that you would want to——

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if this means anything, it is in his pocket, to you I mean. I don’t know. This says here where he took the revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not always——

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he place on the bag on top of the money?

Mr. SENATOR. The gun on top of the moneybag. “Placed it in the bag on top of the money.” To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it or something like that, who knows where he put it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One thing we haven’t talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did Jack Ruby have?

Mr. SENATOR. To the clubs?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have more than one key chain?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car, I’m not sure now. He had keys but I don’t know what they all fit you know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have them on two different rings?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold?

Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen a billfold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have never seen his billfold?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he ever had a wallet. I don’t recall seeing any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see his driver’s license?

Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever see his driver’s license?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or social security.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he got undressed at night did he put his billfold—what did he do with his——

Mr. SENATOR. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them—what he carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like what, a little money fold.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of like an accordian?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it didn’t even open up like that. In other words it opened up like a covered book or one of these little things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have identification in that?

Mr. SENATOR. I never seen into it. It could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he probably could have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize it if you saw it?

Mr. SENATOR. The thing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you describe.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure. I might. I couldn’t say positive. As a matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn’t know if it was green or black.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his automobile that you know of?

Mr. SENATOR. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had for I don’t know how long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the keys were left in the ignition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the glove compartment of Jack’s car?

Mr. SENATOR. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there that it didn’t mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much gook in there, do you know what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk of his car?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slop house, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times “How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that garbage in there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things would he keep in there?

Mr. SENATOR. There would be papers. In other words, things weren’t placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he kept his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any knowledge, or do you——

Mr. SENATOR. I have never gone through his trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As to what he had in there?

Mr. SENATOR. In the trunk?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No. To me it looked like a bunch of garbage he had in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to drive his automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but very seldom because he didn’t want me to handle it and I’ll tell you why. No insurance. That is why he didn’t want me to drive his car. Very seldom was I ever allowed to drive that car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasions when you drove his automobile, from where did you get the automobile keys?

Mr. SENATOR. From him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Off of his person?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; from the house, yes, when he was home. And sometimes I would drive for him when he is tired, like he feels he is going to fall asleep, and I have done this you know from the club to the apartment where he feels he maybe fall asleep at the wheel. This is one of the things where he wouldn’t let me drive because he had no insurance, and I wasn’t anxious to drive the car on account of that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have had lunch together.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And we have had breaks here and on these occasions we have talked and you have talked with Mr. Hubert also on these occasions. Is there anything that we talked with you about in these times when we haven’t had a court reporter present that we haven’t covered here in our deposition?

Mr. SENATOR. It would be hard for me to think what you have left out, you know. I have never had a questioning like this in my life before. When I originally came down here I thought I would only be here—I thought the questioning would probably be similar to being questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service. First of all how was I to know? What was I to expect, see? I just couldn’t believe that I would be here 2 days. I couldn’t think how it was possible where you could ask me so many questions, both of you.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you don’t recall anything dealing with the case, an aspect of it that was the subject of a conversation which has not been discussed on the record?

Mr. SENATOR. Offhand, I can’t. Offhand, I just can’t think of any because I think you all know more than I know. If you can remember the Times Square Cafeteria you know more than I know. You are not going to put that too, are you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then ask this one final question.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything should come to your attention in the future, which pertains to the Ruby case that could be of assistance to us, will you contact somebody in the Government and let them know so that we can have a complete record here. He is nodding his head yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Because he can’t write the nod down there?

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed for coming.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say to him that it has been a pleasure to talk with you; we think your cooperation has been most helpful.

TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRIN RICH

The testimony of Nancy Perrin Rich was taken at 11 a.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich.

Mrs. Rich, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mrs. Rich, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, any participation in that death, or the death of President Kennedy by Jack Ruby, certain particular activities of Jack Ruby which you have heretofore told the FBI, and other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mrs. Rich, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that right?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And that—when did you receive that letter?

Mrs. RICH. I actually received in my hands the letter yesterday, Monday, the 1st. I received notification of it via a telephone call from Mr. Fahety of the FBI Bureau, Boston, notifying me of it.

It was sent—and at this time I would like to state—and opened by Mr. Rod Kennett, of Executive Limited, 100 Boylston Street, Boston, and there was no possible way that letter could have been opened erroneously. It could not have even by any stretch of the imagination been misconstrued as being office literature. It was personally addressed to me, with the President’s Commission on it.

I want that in the record.

Mr. HUBERT. It is.

Mrs. RICH. I also want it in the record I came here of my own free will.

Also that I don’t want it known and that I would like Kennett cautioned to be quiet about this. I want someone to caution the Kennetts to keep quiet about this. Rod opened the letter, and he has been telling everybody in Boston about it. I don’t particularly want it known.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am not in a position to pass upon your request. But I am quite certain that the Commission will take it into account.

Mrs. RICH. I would appreciate it, because of some extracurricular work that I do—it is not feasible for anyone to know that I go before any kind of commission, for anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get back to this. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3 day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he so desires. And I ask you now if you wish to waive the 3-day notice.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I will waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand, please, so I may administer the oath? Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mrs. RICH. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?

Mrs. RICH. Nancy Elaine Perrin Rich.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you recently married.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your husband’s name?

Mrs. RICH. Francis L. Rich.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mrs. RICH. No. 16 River Road, Hanover, Mass.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you married?

Mrs. RICH. April 11, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, I think you had been married to a man by the name of Perrin.

Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin.

Mr. HUBERT. And he died?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had been married prior to that time?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I had.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the husband you were married to prior to the time you married Mr. Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. Husbands, in plural. Louis——

Mr. HUBERT. You mean there are more than one?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Give us the names.

Mrs. RICH. Louis Edward Musachio.

Mr. HUBERT. Before you pass away from him to the other husband, would you tell us how your marriage was dissolved?

Mrs. RICH. By divorce.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he your first husband?

Mrs. RICH. He was my second.

Mr. HUBERT. Your second husband. And is he still alive?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I gather.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lives?

Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. The last known address was Lackland Air Force Base. I believe he is retired out of the service since then.

Mr. HUBERT. What business was he in?

Mrs. RICH. Air Force, a sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you married to him?

Mrs. RICH. Married, I couldn’t exactly say. I guess a year. I actually lived with him about 9 months. Eight of those were spent on various—he spent in various hospitals, including Walter Reed here, for operations, and in the psychiatric locked ward.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced from him?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. 1961, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. In the county of Adams, city of Brighton, Colo.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married to him?

Mrs. RICH. I was married at L. G. Hanscomb Air Force Base, Bedford, Mass.

Mr. HUBERT. What about your first husband?

Mrs. RICH. My first husband was Charles G. Wilson. He was——

Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry him, and where?

Mrs. RICH. Well, I married him in Berwick, Maine, in 1953.

Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?

Mrs. RICH. In divorce.

Mr. HUBERT. When and where?

Mrs. RICH. 1955, in Biddeford, Maine.

Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Ma’am?

Mrs. RICH. I am 27.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation?

Mrs. RICH. Housewife.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not work for Executives Unlimited?

Mrs. RICH. Not any more.

Mr. HUBERT. You did work for them?

Mrs. RICH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, about 3 months.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you cease working for them?

Mrs. RICH. Upon my marriage.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is April 11?

Mrs. RICH. April 11.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of business was that?

Mrs. RICH. An employment agency.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?

Mrs. RICH. 100 Boylston Street, Boston, Mass., Suite 309.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any children?

Mrs. RICH. I have four.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state their ages and tell us by which husband they were born?

Mrs. RICH. I will start with my youngest. Diedre Pilar Perrin, age 4.

Mr. HUBERT. And she is the daughter of——

Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mrs. RICH. Felicia Helen Musachio, whereabouts unknown, by Louis Edward Musachio.

Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?

Mrs. RICH. She would be 5.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say whereabouts unknown, you mean you do not know the whereabouts of the child or of her father?

Mrs. RICH. Both. She was, to quote the FBI, not kidnapped, childnapped. Although I hold legal custody of her, I cannot find her.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you go on to the others?

Mrs. RICH. Brian Russell Wilson, age 7, and Valerie Dawn Wilson, age 10, both by Charles G. Wilson.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do these children live?

Mrs. RICH. The two Wilsons reside in Biddeford, Maine, with my parents.

Mr. HUBERT. Your father and mother?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. The whereabouts of Felicia is unknown. And Deidre Perrin resides with me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present husband’s occupation?

Mrs. RICH. He is the owner of North Quincy Taxi Co.

Mr. HUBERT. That is located——

Mrs. RICH. In Quincy, Mass.

Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been so occupied?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, 20 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occupation of Robert Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. Many things, from a master mechanic, on heavy equipment, cats, et cetera, to a master foundry worker, patternmaker, moulder, to running a foundry.

Mr. HUBERT. And other things?

Mrs. RICH. A writer, contracted by the old Street and Smith Co.

Mr. HUBERT. A writer?

Mrs. RICH. He is an author, short stories. Anything beyond that, I couldn’t tell you, because I don’t know how much is true of what he told me of his past.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you of his past?

Mrs. RICH. May I ask a question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; if you wish.

Mrs. RICH. All of this is confidential?

Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that it is.

Mrs. RICH. Meaning this would not be publicized for the entire world, so to speak. The average person outside of who it directly would be reported to.

Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that you ask for on that point. If you would prefer not to answer the question, in the light of your feelings about it, and the statement I have just made to you, then we can pass on to another point.

Mrs. RICH. Let me ask you this. Is it pertinent and important that you know?

Mrs. HUBERT. Well, yes.

Mrs. RICH. Very well. Well, he claimed to——

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand, I am not giving you any assurance that there will not be available to the public a transcript of this testimony.

Mrs. RICH. I understand this. I thoroughly understand this.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mrs. RICH. Well, he claimed to have worked for Jack Dragna, presently residing at San Quentin.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say he is in the penitentiary?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know for what offense?

Mrs. RICH. Income tax evasion. I suppose. I don’t know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mrs. RICH. Let me state at this time that half of what I am about to say—I am sorry—all of what I am about to say is hearsay. Half, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand that. You are telling us what he told you he had done in the past, but that you don’t know for sure whether it is true.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. But I want that in the record. That he did everything from handle Dragna’s call girls to be a heavy, so to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by a heavy?

Mrs. RICH. Well, bodyguard.

Mr. HUBERT. Bodyguard for whom?

Mrs. RICH. Jack Dragna, and various subsequent members, shall we say, of the organization that used to come into California.

Mr. HUBERT. What organization was that?

Mrs. RICH. Call it by what you will—syndicate, Mafia.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people involved?

Mrs. RICH. I could not tell you. I do know that he mentioned that he personally knew Mickey Cohen and Virginia Hill.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know any other names?

Mrs. RICH. Jimmy Gilreath.

Mr. HUBERT. Would G-i-l-r-e-a-t-h be about right?

Mrs. RICH. I would assume so.

Mr. HUBERT. So what you are telling us is that your former husband, now deceased, Robert Perrin, had told you that among other things he acted as bodyguard for certain members of a syndicate, as you call it, and you have named, I think, four people who belonged to the syndicate.

Mrs. RICH. Supposedly, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the syndicate about, from what you learned from your husband?

Mrs. RICH. Well, everything from prostitution to illegal gambling to narcotics.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, all of this you know by hearsay alone?

Mrs. RICH. By hearsay alone.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you that question because a moment ago you said that half of what you said was hearsay.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that the other half was not.

Mrs. RICH. I do know this, that he claimed that he ran guns—this was years ago, when Franco was coming into power. I do know this to be a fact, because he spent time in jail there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he spend time in jail?

Mrs. RICH. In Spain. I do know he fought for both sides, as a professional soldier.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you know that, I take it that you mean that he told you so.

Mrs. RICH. No; I do not mean that, sir. I mean I have seen written proof of this statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Such as what?

Mrs. RICH. Such as a prison record. Now, let me qualify that. I have seen said statement on record, call it what you may. Now, how authentic it was, I cannot swear to it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he showed you a prison record?

Mrs. RICH. I found it. From stuff in Spain—both Madrid, and a place called Consuela.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a prison record was it?

Mrs. RICH. It wasn’t as you would think of a prison record. It was merely a piece of paper in Spanish with a list of articles on it that was on his person at the time he was arrested. Another one was of a release signed by a Teniente Enriquez, which would be a lieutenant here, at the Madrid Secreto Servicio.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you better spell all that out, because you are using a foreign language, and I am not sure that the reporter can get it except by the sound.

Mrs. RICH. All right. To clarify this, it was written in Spanish. I will quote it in English. “An article list, signed by Lieutenant Enriquez.”

Mr. HUBERT. That is his last name?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; a release signed by someone in the Secret Service, which is comparable to our detective system on a city police force.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a lease of what?

Mrs. RICH. A release.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him about these documents?

Mrs. RICH. He seemed quite proud of the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that you did talk to him about it?

Mrs. RICH. I did. Quite frankly, I asked him what in the heck it was all about. At that time, he claimed, he said, “Well, you won’t believe me. I wasn’t making it up.” He claimed he ran guns and used to pilot a small boat.

Mr. HUBERT. Ran guns where?

Mrs. RICH. Into Spain, for Franco.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that document? Did it have any date on it?

Mrs. RICH. I would say it was in the late thirties, I wouldn’t be sure, late thirties or early forties. It was either just prior to him going into the United States Army or after he was released. Now, I cannot be sure on that.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that it could not have been earlier than, say, 1935?

Mrs. RICH. No, it could not have.

Mr. HUBERT. Why are you sure of that?

Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason he was born in 1920. It couldn’t have been much prior to 1935. It was either late thirties or early forties. Again, I would like to, for the record, state that my husband was a writer.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Perrin now?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. And had a vivid imagination, as most writers do. Whether or not these were authentic documents, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he die a natural death?

Mrs. RICH. Suicide. The coroner’s report was arsenic. I also would like to state for the record at this time after my husband’s death the Veterans’ Administration Hospital, I believe it is the one in Denver, that finally came up with the report, came up with the report that my husband was discharged from the service for hysteria, and had a history of mental disturbance.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with him at the time he died?

Mrs. RICH. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. You state to us now that the coroner’s report in New Orleans, I suppose——

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Showed that his death was caused by arsenic voluntarily consumed, right?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you lived part of the time that you were married to Perrin in Dallas, did you not?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. Why I am hesitant—I would like to clarify that statement. I went to Dallas seeking Mr. Perrin. He had left me.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living when he left you?

Mrs. RICH. We were living in Belmont, Mass.

Mr. HUBERT. What address?

Mrs. RICH. No. 11 Holden Road.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after he left you did you seek him out in Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. I was in New Hampshire with the state legislature at the time. I was doing public relations. And I had just obtained a job, a position for him, and I telephoned to Massachusetts to tell him to come on down, and there was no answer. And I had a feeling that something was wrong. So I hightailed it back to Massachusetts, and there was a note. And the note said that he was going to Dallas. I called and he wasn’t there. I called halfway over the United States, thinking of places he told me he had been, and I couldn’t find him.

Mr. HUBERT. What place did you call in Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. I called the police department and a foundry he had mentioned in a letter, and had read the name of a gentleman he had mentioned at this time whose name eludes me—Youngblood—I take it back.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?

Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. But my husband claimed—and I couldn’t ask him, because if he was he couldn’t have told me—claimed he was some sort of a Government agent, which was in all probability true.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Mr. Youngblood?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he hadn’t seen him. Then I proceeded to call Kansas City and various other points I thought he might be.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually contact the Dallas Police Department?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any report from them?

Mrs. RICH. Except that he wasn’t there. Or that they didn’t know he was there.

Mr. HUBERT. They did report that fact to you?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they do so?

Mrs. RICH. By phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mrs. RICH. I then informed him that I would be there, which I did. Subsequently, Mr. Perrin—and I will never understand——

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the events you have just told us about, to wit, your coming home and finding that he wasn’t there—how long after those events did you go to Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. Approximately 1 week.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. When was that?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, gosh. That was in, I believe, May. I can’t give you the exact month. But I believe it was in May.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?

Mrs. RICH. Of 1961. Or was it 1962? ’62. I am sorry—1962.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long—did you find Mr. Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. Again in a way. He wasn’t in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he?

Mrs. RICH. Well, afterwards, when he arrived in Dallas, I found out that he had been in South Bend, Ind., with my secretary.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when did you meet him in Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. He wrote mother, found out where I was—and came to Dallas, I believe, it would be around July.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1962?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had been there alone from May of 1962 until July of 1962?

Mrs. RICH. I am giving approximate dates, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he did arrive, what happened?

Mrs. RICH. Just like nothing had happened. Everything was fine.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean there was a reconciliation between you?

Mrs. RICH. I loved my husband very much.

Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you proceeded to live together as husband and wife?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much education have you had, Mrs. Rich?

Mrs. RICH. I have had 3 years of high school.

Mr. HUBERT. What high school?

Mrs. RICH. Biddeford High, in Biddeford, Maine.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave there?

Mrs. RICH. I left when I was 16. That would be in 1954—1953—I am sorry. And I got married, and I go back, and I drop out because I am going to have a child. Then after I have the child I go back, and I am doubling up on my courses and could have graduated. But I was too smart, and knew everything.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other type of training?

Mrs. RICH. Depending on what you mean—formal education—meaning book learning?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes.

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or other types of training, such as stenography?

Mrs. RICH. IBM, and police investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the IBM aspect? Did you study that?

Mrs. RICH. I made a misquotation. It would be Remington Rand, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you study?

Mrs. RICH. Not with Remington Rand as a company. For Craftsman Life and Health Insurance Co. of Boston.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?

Mrs. RICH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. And studied the operation of Remington Rand machines there?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us the name of some of the people you worked with there?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, you are going back too far, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that place located?

Mrs. RICH. On Boylston Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the manager?

Mrs. RICH. It may sound odd—whether this name has stuck in my mind or not—but it seems to me his name is Griffin, too. I may be wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 6 months.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after you married?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, no. No—in fact, I was working there when I met Musachio. That was back in 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You had divorced your first husband?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned something else besides IBM.

Mrs. RICH. Police investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, where did you learn that?

Mrs. RICH. From various police organizations, district attorney’s offices.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; some with the Boston Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with?

Mrs. RICH. We called him Papa McGill. Sergeant McGill, and John Dinatele, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?

Mrs. RICH. Well, I was a young kid, and didn’t have any brains. I blew a case, and that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid?

Mrs. RICH. At that time; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Your answer suggests that at a later time you were paid.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. With the same department?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, with what police department?

Mrs. RICH. With the district attorney’s office of Sacramento.

Mr. HUBERT. California?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?

Mrs. RICH. Well, this wasn’t a question of working. I worked as needed, or as a case came up. I worked for Mr. Oscar Kistle, Chief Deputy District Attorney, who as of this January is now a judge.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with anybody else there?

Mrs. RICH. I worked with the Hayward Police Department, in California.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with there?

Mrs. RICH. Lieutenant—I can’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with that police department?

Mrs. RICH. Well, I left. That is why I discontinued my association with them. Again, as needed.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, altogether, how long were you there?

Mrs. RICH. Altogether, if you want to put it running day by day, probably 3 weeks. If you want to say—actually I was associated with them probably 3 or 4 months.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant.

Mrs. RICH. But not worked steadily.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand.

Mrs. RICH. And the Oakland Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. Oakland, Calif.?

Mrs. RICH. California.

Mr. HUBERT. And who did you work with there?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. I worked on grand theft. Lieutenant—I can’t remember—whoever the lieutenant is in charge of grand theft detail. Lt. Parker.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Oakland with that association?

Mrs. RICH. Again, about the same length of time as Hayward. I was working with both of them at the same time, and also Sacramento. In that type of work, you cannot get by in just one.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think you mentioned Sacramento yet.

Mrs. RICH. The district attorney’s office, yes, I have. At this time, if necessary, I can introduce a letter into evidence verifying part of this testimony.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you wish to do so?

Mrs. RICH. I believe I would.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have the letter?

Mrs. RICH. I do. Note for the record I hand a letter to Mr. Hubert, signed by Chief Deputy Kistle.

Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me this document. Do you wish—I assume you wish to keep the original.

Mrs. RICH. That is the only one I have, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind if we had a copy made of it?

Mrs. RICH. I would not.

Mr. HUBERT. And then we can hand you back the original.

Mrs. RICH. That will be fine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when did you first meet Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICH. When I first reached Dallas, I, of course, went directly to the police station. Ironically enough, the first person I met was Mr. Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? Are you referring to the Tippit who was shot on November 22d?

Mrs. RICH. I would say so. I believe it is the only Tippit on the police force.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you met Mr. Tippit. And what happened then?

Mrs. RICH. I walked in and plunked $4 on the desk and said, “Here I am.” He said——

Mr. HUBERT. Well——

Mrs. RICH. This was a joke. When I called him from Massachusetts, I told him when I hit there I would have 4 bucks in my pocket. It was rather a kind of a joke, actually. I said, “Here I am.”

He said, “Oh, no; I told you not to do it.”

I had talked to him previously on the phone. So that was all right. So he called in one of the patrolmen. And they get the Black Maria, go down to the bus depot and get my bags. And I had called Associated Press. I have many friends around the press world. Being in public relations, I would. And this Brice someone or other said, “You can go and stay with my wife for a couple of days until you get settled.”

Three o’clock in the morning we start punching doorbells, with the suitcases in a Black Maria, trying to find Ann, and I couldn’t remember the last name. So the next day they send up to pick me up and help me find a place and job.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “they”——

Mrs. RICH. Meaning the police department of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What particular individuals?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall exactly who sent them up. I cannot remember the guy’s name. Really. I don’t believe he is any longer with them, I understand.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, some person from the police department came to get you the next day?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. Subsequently, one Mr. Paul Rayburn, detective, juvenile, came to pick me up, along with his partner, Detective House. Well, we managed to find a place to live. And Paul suggested he had a friend. And did I know anything about bartending; well, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What place did he find you to live in? Do you remember the address?

Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. It was a rooming house. Actually, it was a private home more or less cut into small apartments. I believe it was a three-room apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?

Mrs. RICH. Here is where we are going to get into difficulty. I don’t remember. I cannot remember the length of time or addresses I lived at.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you live at more than one place prior to the time Mr. Perrin joined you in July?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of the addresses of the places where you lived?

Mrs. RICH. Well, I remember I lived—when Mr. Perrin joined me I was living on Oak Street, I believe. Then we moved to another street, and I don’t remember where it was.

Mr. HUBERT. How many places do you suppose you lived in prior to the time Mr. Perrin joined you?

Mrs. RICH. Two, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. One was on Oak Street?

Mrs. RICH. That was the one—let’s put it this way. Two including the one I was living at when he joined me.

Mr. HUBERT. And one was on Oak Street?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. That was the big apartment building.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other was a rooming house?

Mrs. RICH. Well, I call it a rooming house. Perhaps I have named it incorrectly. I would say a private home cut up into small apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember where that was?

Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember. I can remember the house. I would probably know it if I see it. It is outside the city a little ways. It wasn’t right in the heart of downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the lady who owned the house?

Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the other was an apartment building, you say.

Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe—now, put this as supposed—I believe it was 1136 Oak Street, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. So that both places were on Oak Street?

Mrs. RICH. No, no. The one on Oak, I think, that was the address. I don’t recall what the first one was that Mr. Rayburn put me into.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I get this straight. You lived in a boarding house which was a house cut into small units, you say, and you don’t know where that was located.

Mrs. RICH. No; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay there, do you suppose?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 weeks, 2 weeks, 3 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. After which, as I understand, you then went to the larger apartment house.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; on Oak Street, apartment row, where all these big luxury apartments are.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was on Oak Street?

Mrs. RICH. Oak Street.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until Mr. Perrin joined you?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. And for a while after. Until we found a place comparable but at less money.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?

Mrs. RICH. That I don’t remember. Junios Street. I remember it didn’t have a pool—it was a big brick apartment. Again, all of these places I can close my eyes and picture. But I cannot tell you. I can’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there with Mr. Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. At the last address that I don’t remember?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; ma’am.

Mrs. RICH. Probably 3 or 4 months. I think we left Dallas in October and went to New Orleans—either late October or early November.

Mr. HUBERT. What year?

Mrs. RICH. Of 1962. Now, this is where I am getting confused. It had to have been 1961. This is where I get confused. When I stated before that it was May of 1962, it wasn’t. It was May of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. Why do you make that correction now?

Mrs. RICH. Well, it couldn’t have possibly been in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. RICH. My husband died in August of 1962, in New Orleans. And we had been there over a year.

Mr. HUBERT. You had been in New Orleans over a year by the time he died?

Mrs. RICH. Almost a year. Between New Orleans and Boston, and Miami. You see——

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave Dallas, then?

Mrs. RICH. It would be October of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. That you left Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And all of these previous dates, May and July, you now wish to correct——

Mrs. RICH. To 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. And you lived with Mr. Perrin after leaving Dallas in October of 1962—of 1961?

Mrs. RICH. 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. You lived in New Orleans most of the time?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he died there?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. You see, it was New Orleans and Boston.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I had asked you when you had first met Jack Ruby, and I think you were beginning to tell us when we got into the question of your residences. So now will you tell us how you met Jack Ruby, and when?

Mrs. RICH. The when I could not tell you exactly. Some time during May or June, I believe. Mr. Ruby’s records could tell you, due to the fact that I believe he probably took social security out. But the how was that Mr. Rayburn took me up and got me the job up there. Detective Rayburn.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long after you had arrived in Dallas did you meet Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. RICH. Again, the time element eludes me. It could be anywhere from 2 or 3 weeks to a month.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that it might be that long after you arrived in Dallas under the circumstances that you told us about?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. A week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. The last few years time has become nothing for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what was your occupation with Ruby, and where was it?

Mrs. RICH. I was bartender at the Carousel Lounge, on Commercial—well, the main street in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Commerce?

Mrs. RICH. Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the names of the other people who worked with you at that time?

Mrs. RICH. Buddy King—I should say his professional name is Buddy King—Robert J. Stewart. I am trying to think of the name of that MC. I have been trying to think of it, and I cannot. Ray something or other, I believe. They came and they went.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you employed by Ruby altogether?

Mrs. RICH. Probably a couple of months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with Ruby after your husband joined you?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work until you left Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before leaving Dallas did you quit the job at Ruby’s?

Mrs. RICH. Possibly a couple of months, 3 months. I wasn’t in Dallas more than maybe 5 months, 4 months at the most, 4 or 5 months at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say bartender, what do you mean? What were your actual duties?

Mrs. RICH. I was actually a bartender. I worked behind the bar mixing and serving drinks.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of drinks?

Mrs. RICH. Whatever was allowed. Actually, you are not allowed to serve mixed drinks there. We do to special customers. You are not allowed to serve hard liquor. But I served beer, and wine, of course, and your setups.

Mr. HUBERT. What customers did you serve hard liquor to?

Mrs. RICH. Whomever I was told to.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?

Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t quote you names, perhaps.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you to serve them?

Mrs. RICH. Mr. Ruby. It was a standing order. For a particular group of people. Then whenever he would come in and say, “This is private stock stuff,” that would mean for me to go where I knew the hard liquor was and get it out, and get it ready for the people in his private office.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular group—who did it consist of?

Mrs. RICH. The police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that Jack Ruby told you that when any member of the police department came in, that there was a standing order that you could serve them hard liquor?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And are you also saying that you did so?

Mrs. RICH. I am saying that I needed a job and did so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names of any particular officers to whom you served hard liquor?

Mrs. RICH. House, Rayburn——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can get some first names.

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what House’s first name was, but it was Paul Rayburn, and Detective—something House—they were partners. They worked as a team, juvenile. And the rest were just faces and uniforms.

Mr. HUBERT. How would you know them?

Mrs. RICH. At that time, I knew them.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew them to be police?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; of course not.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that an order, too, from Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. RICH. That was. Unless they came in in the evening with their wives. Then, of course, they paid. But then again, they didn’t have hard liquor, either, at that time. This is when they came in, by themselves, I was to go get the private stock, as he called it, special stock. They were served whatever they wanted on the house.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that widespread?

Mrs. RICH. I am not sure I understand what you mean by widespread.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have mentioned two names, and then said there were others whose names you don’t remember.

Mrs. RICH. Well, the only reason I remember House and Rayburn is because they were personal friends of mine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many others do you suppose you served?

Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t estimate. I couldn’t give you a true and accurate figure. Anyone that came in from the police department. Including certain attorneys in town. One attorney I particularly remember was a fellow named Sy Victorson, who subsequently became my attorney, and a personal friend.

Mr. HUBERT. And what?

Mrs. RICH. And a personal friend.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your salary there?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. $50, $60 a week, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any tips?

Mrs. RICH. Sometimes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Andy Armstrong or Andrew Armstrong?

Mrs. RICH. The name Armstrong doesn’t ring a bell. I guess, if my memory serves me correctly—wasn’t the colored man that cleaned up around there, Andy?

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you remember him?

Mrs. RICH. I wouldn’t swear to it. I do know we had a colored man cleaning up, but I would be darned if I remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it may have been Andy?

Mrs. RICH. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t even dare venture a guess. In all honesty, I would have to say I can’t really put a face to the name.

Mr. HUBERT. But there was a colored man there?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was a colored man that cleaned up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay on in the afternoon and at night?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours?

Mrs. RICH. I believe I would come in around 3, 4, 5 o’clock, I think, sometimes I would come in at 6, or 7; I would work straight through to midnight.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this cleanup man present when you came in?

Mrs. RICH. If I came in the afternoon, yes, the colored man was there. As I say, in all honesty, I could not dare venture a name on that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember any colored man who was there helping at the bar in the night hours?

Mrs. RICH. You don’t notice them. I mean they are there. If you have been a bartender, you would know what I mean. You don’t notice people like that. They are taken for granted they are there, you have a bar helper. Heck, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what you are saying is that you do not remember that there was any colored man who assisted with the bar at night.

Mrs. RICH. I will be darned if I can even put a face to whoever did bring the bottles and stuff out to me, the cases.

Mr. HUBERT. Your answer to my question, then, is that you do not remember that there was a colored man other than the cleaner that you mentioned.

Mrs. RICH. Well, he did everything. I do remember he lugged beer cases out for me. I think if my memory is right—I think he stacked my cooler for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he leave before you?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t really remember. As I say, these people you take for granted, you don’t pay any attention to them. I never gave it a second thought. I had one thing on my mind, and it went against my grain. I was doing something I knew to be illegal, and I knew I needed the job. Every night I expected a raid. That was my prime concern.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?

Mrs. RICH. Ralph Lee?

Mr. HUBERT. No; Ralph Paul.

Mrs. RICH. If he is the one I am thinking of, he was the manager at Earl’s Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Earl who?

Mrs. RICH. Earl’s Club. I don’t know what Earl’s last name was. I forgot. It is a private club in Dallas. But I knew him as Ralph Lee. Oh, I don’t think it is the same one. Again, I would remember people if I saw their faces. Names I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a person by the name of Eva Grant?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was she?

Mrs. RICH. Well, she managed Jack’s other club; his sister managed the Vegas Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet her?

Mrs. RICH. One time.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. She came in at the club there one time, was introduced as his sister, and that she managed the Vegas Club, which I had never been out to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with Ruby?

Mrs. RICH. Except the fact I was about ready to throw a cash register on his head, no.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that?

Mrs. RICH. I shouldn’t have said that. I said except for the fact that I was ready one night to throw a cash register on his head, no. I don’t like to be pushed around.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting that he did push you around?

Mrs. RICH. I am suggesting he threw me up against the bar and put a bruise on my arm, and only because Bud King and one of the dancers there pulled me off, I was going to kill him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the argument about?

Mrs. RICH. The bar glasses were not clean enough to suit him. And I wasn’t pushing drinks to the customers fast enough.

Mr. HUBERT. And so he remonstrated with you?

Mrs. RICH. He did.

Mr. HUBERT. And that included pushing you around?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And I was refused the privilege of bringing an assault and battery suit against him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who refused you that?

Mrs. RICH. The police department. I went down for information and was going to Mr. Douglas—I believe he was—he is some attorney—I think he was—he is with the DA’s office. I don’t remember his position. I can’t remember his last name. I wanted to file suit against Ruby. And I was refused. I was told if I did that I would never win it, and get myself in more trouble than I bargained for.

Mr. HUBERT. That was told to you by whom?

Mrs. RICH. By the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. HUBERT. But what individual of the Dallas Police Department?

Mrs. RICH. Again—and I wish to God I could—I can’t remember his name. There was a detective, plainclothesman.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that you had spoken to someone in the district attorney’s office?

Mrs. RICH. No; I said that is who I was going to go to. I wasn’t advised. I was flatly told not to.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not go to anyone in the district attorney’s office?

Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that put an end to your employment with Ruby?

Mrs. RICH. No; I had already ceased with Ruby the night that that happened. I walked out, and left him cold.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. After this altercation, you no longer worked for him?

Mrs. RICH. I did not. I was just biding my time until I found another job, which I did find. This was on a Wednesday. I was going to give him notice and leave him—I wasn’t going to leave him over the weekend, but I was going to start the other place the following Monday anyway. And this just hastened it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you report that to your husband?

Mrs. RICH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. He was employed in Dallas at that time, I think you said.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. At this time, I don’t recall whether he was working for Paul Rayburn, Detective Rayburn, at his used car lot, or whether he was with Al’s Automotive. One of the two places.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a job did he have?

Mrs. RICH. Mechanic. Subsequently my husband went up and Jack Ruby threw him out of the club. My husband was going to talk to him. And I found out about it. Ruby had already kicked him out of the club. And then I disuaded him from going back further. I said, “Forget it, just let it drop.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other employment in Dallas after this altercation with Ruby?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did. At the—I think it was called just The Chalet.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?

Mrs. RICH. Again I can’t remember. Again it was on the other side of Dallas. It was outside—in fact, I don’t thing it was right in Dallas proper. It wasn’t in Dallas proper, I know.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do there?

Mrs. RICH. This was a dining place. And I was a hostess. And in the place they had this little booth, and they had a dart game, and you could throw darts and win prizes, and I also ran that place for them.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was your employer there?

Mrs. RICH. Again, I cannot recall his name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?

Mrs. RICH. Until I left Dallas—probably a month. Then we left to go back to New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you unemployed—that is to say, what period was there between the time you left Ruby and the time you got this employment at The Chalet?

Mrs. RICH. Between the time I left Ruby and the time I went to The Chalet, about 5 or 6 days. And then I quit The Chalet a little before we left. And, of course, prior to going to Ruby’s I wasn’t employed. Then there was a period of about a week, week and a-half, while I was at Ruby’s, all of a sudden he decided he didn’t need a bartender. Then I am recalled back.

Mr. HUBERT. You left The Chalet about a week before you left Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. Probably a little more than that. Maybe 2, 2½ weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you leave The Chalet?

Mrs. RICH. Well, for one thing he was going to close down for renovations. And then he said, “no, I am not; I am going to sell out.” And he decided to close it down anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for a place called the Theater Lounge?

Mrs. RICH. Barney Weinstein—yes, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mrs. RICH. That was during the time I had left Ruby and then went back to Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for the Theater Lounge?

Mrs. RICH. No more than a week or two. I forgot all about working for Barney. I have to laugh. His brother owned the other stripping place in town, right next to Ruby, upstairs. And they had this amateur show, these amateur strippers. Barney was going to promote me as a stripper. No thanks.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, before we get into any other matter, I want to go back to the letter that you handed me which was dated October 25, 1963. It is addressed, “To Whom it May Concern:”

It purports to be signed by Oscar Kistle, chief deputy, district attorney. It is on stationery of the office of the District Attorney of Sacramento County. I have had a Xerox copy made of it. I have returned the original to you, is that right?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the Xerox copy of that document for identification by writing on the right-hand margin the following words; to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and in order that the record may show that there is no misunderstanding about it, I wonder if you would sign your name as I have mine.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I would. Note for the record that on the left-hand margin I signed “Nancy E. Perrin Rich.”

Mr. HUBERT. I think the letter that you handed me was in an envelope, which was plain, other than the fact that it had in the left-hand upper corner the words “Office of District Attorney, Room 204, Courthouse, Sacramento 14, California”. I am marking a Xerox copy of the original of that envelope, which has been returned to you, for identification by writing on the Xerox copy the following, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit 2, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and I ask you to sign yours as you did with reference to Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s signature.

(The documents referred to were marked Nancy E. Perrin Rich Exhibits 1 and 2 for identification.)

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, ma’am.

Mrs. RICH. At this time I would also, pertaining to my statement concerning working for various police organizations, introduce into this informal hearing, so to speak, another piece of material given to me by the Oakland Police Department while working on a case for them, under the name of Julie Anne Cody. Also under this name is a police record purposely devised by the Oakland Police Department for obvious purposes, to coincide with this card that I am about to hand to Mr. Hubert—also, how shall we say it—falsified, made up by the Oakland Police Department, for obvious purposes. This was to get me into a particular place—I had to have a police record—all done with the sanction of the Oakland Police Department. May I also note that on that card the dates and the names are fictitious, intentionally so. The card was in reality printed in, I believe, November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you want to introduce this card into this proceeding?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. And I will tell you why. If you note the date on that, some of my statements—Let’s say that this came into light, and I didn’t give the explanation of why and what this meant—the dates would conflict with some of my testimony. And I want this understood that this was purely done to, shall we say, consummate a case for the Oakland Police Department. I was not actually in California the dates on that card.

Mr. HUBERT. When was this card issued to you?

Mrs. RICH. In reality, this card was issued in November of 1963. I was working on a grand larceny case.

Mr. HUBERT. You want this card back, the original?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, as soon as we have a Xerox copy made of the card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other.

Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was present and there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban refugees.

Mrs. RICH. Your statement is partially correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what is actually correct?

Mrs. RICH. At the first meeting there were four people present. There was a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget whether he was Air Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it seems to me he was regular Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin, myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I don’t remember his last name. Dave C.—I think it was Cole, but I wouldn’t be sure.

Dave came to my husband with a proposition——

Mr. HUBERT. There were only four people present?

Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender for the University Club on Commerce Street in Dallas. I became associated with him and subsequently so did my husband. Well, at first it looked all right to me. They wanted someone to pilot a boat—someone that knew Cuba, and my husband claimed he did. Whether he did, I don’t know. I know he did know boats. So they were going to bring Cuban refugees out into Miami. All this was fine, because by that time everyone knew Castro for what he appears to be, shall we say. So I said sure, why not—$10,000. I said that is fine.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to receive $10,000 for your services?

Mrs. RICH. Well, I was incidental.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to know.

Mrs. RICH. I say I was incidental. My husband was.

Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was to receive $10,000?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told him so?

Mrs. RICH. The colonel.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did this meeting take place?

Mrs. RICH. In Dallas at an apartment building. Again, I can describe that darned building to a “T” and I couldn’t tell you what street it is on.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe it for us, please?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was sitting—if I may do it in diagram.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what section of the city it was?

Mrs. RICH. No; this I don’t. You come along—let’s say this is your main street, that the apartment building set on. We have an apartment building, not setting facing the street, but with the side towards the street. A hill slopes up. There is a path that kind of winds around. There are flowers and gardens here; and in them I believe there is a little fountain—and in them was lights—illuminating the gardens; and you have to come up a little hill, and walk around—I am not sure whether there was a gravel path or not, or whether it is flagstone—and into the building here. And it was a double deck, I believe—perhaps a triple.

Mr. HUBERT. Apartment house?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How many apartments, roughly speaking?

Mrs. RICH. I could not say how many. The standard apartment building for Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, at this point let us do this: You have handed us the card that you referred to in your testimony previously. We have now had a Xerox copy made of it. I am handing you back the original. For the purpose of identification, I am marking the Xerox copy, front and back, as follows, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” and I am signing my name below that. And on the reverse side of it, which appears on another Xerox page, I am marking for the purpose of identification the following: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3-A, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name. And I ask you, please, to sign both documents below my name so that the record will show that we have been speaking of the same document.

Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3. Will you note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3-A.

(The documents referred to were marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibits Nos. 3 and 3-A for identification.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, a moment ago you were testifying concerning an apartment house at which you and your husband met a colonel and another man by the name of Dave C., I think you said.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; that is an initial—C. Dave took us there.

Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark that document for the purpose of identification “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I am signing my name, and I ask you to sign your name on it, if you please.

Mrs. RICH. I didn’t mean for this to be an exhibit. Will you note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 4. Also note for the record the writing I am doing after signing is merely designating what the lines mean.

(The document referred to was marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibit No. 4 for identification.)

Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in stating that prior to the writing you have just put on the document, Exhibit No. 4, there were merely lines which indicated a street and an apartment and a little path, showing a garden. And that since the document has been identified, you have written in all that appears in handwriting?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember on what floor this apartment was that you visited?

Mrs. RICH. I believe the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether it was to the left or the right as you went in?

Mrs. RICH. There was no question of left or right as such. It was—you just walked in. There was no hallway to indicate left or right, if that is what you are referring to.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this apartment actually opened on the path?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How many rooms did it have?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall whether it was a one or two bedroom.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any other description of the apartment building, first of all?

Mrs. RICH. The apartment itself wasn’t too well furnished.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a brick apartment?

Mrs. RICH. I believe it was. Either brick or stucco.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the color of it?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t. But I believe it had colored doors. Now, I could be mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. And the apartment itself was one or two bedrooms, and I think you say it was not well furnished. Do you recall anything about the interior of the apartment that would be significant?

Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify that. When I say not well furnished, I should have said sparsely furnished. It looked like an unfurnished apartment that he had just thrown some furniture into and not too much of it. I believe I remember he said something about he just moved in; hadn’t finished it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it have lamps in it?

Mrs. RICH. I believe it did. I think it had one lamp on the table.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything about the furniture that was there?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was, I believe you call it Danish modern.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it upholstered?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall. It was typical cheap apartment furniture. I believe it had plastic upholstery.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you went there at night.

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time?

Mrs. RICH. It was after dark. Probably 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long it took you to drive from where you were living to this place?

Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there?

Mrs. RICH. In Dave’s car. Now, again, I said four people present. I should have counted—he had a girl with him. She wasn’t in it or anything, just some girl he had along for the evening. She was never part of it. In fact, I think she stayed in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the place?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the general discussion?

Mrs. RICH. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and listened. The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat, the colonel could obtain various things, and nothing specific was mentioned on what the various things were at that time. And we were going to go and pick up—they were deciding where to pick them up—pick up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to the main coast, meaning Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at that time, as I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought it was a good idea.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Who mentioned it?

Mrs. RICH. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved for this sort of operation?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t express that view, of course?

Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t say anything. I just kept quiet.

Mr. HUBERT. How were matters left at the end of that meeting?

Mrs. RICH. That there were more people involved, and that we were to attend a meeting at some later date, of which we would be advised.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised?

Mrs. RICH. We were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did another meeting take place?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; it did.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2.

Mr. HUBERT. At the same place?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at night?

Mrs. RICH. It was.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there then?

Mrs. RICH. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us. At that time, Dave and my husband and I were in our car.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Tell us what happened.

Mrs. RICH. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel and another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would describe her, steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was a rather——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her name?

Mrs. RICH. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don’t recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow, who looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?

Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to everyone.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else was there?

Mrs. RICH. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple of other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them looked rather dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American, and Dave, my husband, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at that meeting.

Mrs. RICH. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some kind of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke up and said, “Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before we”—meaning my husband and myself—“get into this. I would like to know what we are getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly have a say in this matter.” Then it came out—boom—quite blank. We were going to bring Cuban refugees out—but we were going to run military supplies and Enfield rifles in.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?

Mrs. RICH. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made the statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be the head of it and seemed to do all the talking.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe what the colonel looked like?

Mrs. RICH. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a little younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look older. As I recall, a rather slightly built man—and I would not swear to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other characteristics?

Mrs. RICH. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in summer uniform?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Short sleeves?

Mrs. RICH. If my memory serves me; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter?

Mrs. RICH. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group of people.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting officially, in his official capacity?

Mrs. RICH. No; he was not acting officially.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mrs. RICH. Because of certain statements that were made—statements such as that the guns would have to come in via Mexico, meaning the Enfield rifles. Statements like “We have been taking stuff off of the base for the last 3 months getting prepared for this”—meaning military equipment, I suppose small arms, or explosives, et cetera, as I understood it.

Mr. HUBERT. He was also in uniform on the first occasion?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The same type of uniform?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times you saw him he was in uniform?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Summer uniform?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So at that meeting it came out that the project had two purposes. One was to bring arms in, and the other was to take refuges out.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; to make money both ways. Then it became crystal clear why so much money was to be paid for the pilot of the boat.

Mr. HUBERT. And how was that meeting left?

Mrs. RICH. Well, at that time when he said that, my first thought was “Nancy, get out of here, this is no good, this stinks.” I have no qualms about making money, but not when it is against the Federal Government but let’s play along and see what happens. I said, “All right, we will go. But you can take the $10,000 and keep it. I want $25,000 or we don’t move.” It was left that the bigwigs would decide among themselves. During this meeting I had the shock of my life. Apparently they were having some hitch in money arriving. No one actually said that that was what it was. But this is what I presumed it to be. I am sitting there. A knock comes on the door and who walks in but my little friend Jack Ruby. And you could have knocked me over with a feather.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at the second meeting?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what facts occurred to give you the impression that there was a hitch with respect to money?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, just that they were talking about, well, first of all when I say we—a group of people were supposed to go to Mexico to make the arrangement for rifles but “Well, no, you can’t leave tomorrow”—they dropped it. And just evasive statements that led me to believe that perhaps they were lacking in funds.

And then Ruby comes in, and everybody looks like this, you know, a big smile—like here comes the Saviour, or something. And he took one look at me, I took one look at him, and we glared, we never spoke a word. I don’t know if you have ever met the man. But he has this nervous air about him. And he seemed overly nervous that night. He bustled on in. The colonel rushed out into the kitchen or bedroom, I am not sure which. Ruby had—and he always did carry a gun—and I noticed a rather extensive bulge in his—about where his breast pocket would be. But at that time I thought it was a shoulder holster, which he was in the habit of carrying.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in the habit of carrying?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. Either a shoulder holster or a gun stuck in his pocket. I always had a gun behind the bar. That is normal.

Mr. HUBERT. You had seen it at his shoulder?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; which was normal—because he made the bank deposit. I made the bank deposit a couple of times for him and carried a gun when I made it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognition of you?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he glared at me and I glared back, as much as to say to each other what the heck are you doing here.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you told the colonel and Dave what your name was prior to that?

Mrs. RICH. At that time we—I think it will be obvious to you gentlemen the reason—we were going under Jack Starr and Nancy Starr.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean that is the name that Ruby knew you under?

Mrs. RICH. No. Jack Ruby knew me as Nancy Perrin.

Mr. HUBERT. And he knew your husband was Robert Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. But like I say for obvious reasons we used the name Jack and Nancy Starr.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you told the colonel and Dave that your name——

Mrs. RICH. No; Dave knew our real name.

Mr. HUBERT. The colonel——

Mrs. RICH. The colonel and everyone else involved, with the exception of Ruby and Dave.

Mr. HUBERT. They knew you as Nancy Starr?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. Also let me state that my husbands’ nom de plume as a writer was Jack Starr. I have also published under Nancy Starr.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened?

Mrs. RICH. Well, they went in and came out and the bulge was gone, and everybody was really happy, and all of a sudden they seemed to be happy. So it was my impression Ruby brought money in.

Mr. HUBERT. They walked out of the apartment?

Mrs. RICH. Ruby left. He didn’t stay. He wasn’t there for more than 15 minutes at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. You say all of a sudden the bulge was gone?

Mrs. RICH. The bulge was gone from Ruby when he left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave the room?

Mrs. RICH. He left the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean from the time he came in until he left.

Mrs. RICH. He came in. To everyone else except my husband and I he said, “Hi.” He and the colonel rushed into—I forget whether it was the kitchen or the bedroom. They were in there about 10 minutes. I heard some rather loud undistinguishable words. They closed the door. When they came out everybody looked relieved. And Ruby just walked out.

Mr. HUBERT. And said nothing to you?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You say the money was forthcoming?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it?

Mrs. RICH. No; we didn’t. First they had to pay for this pugnacious-looking fellow and one of the Latins who were going down to Mexico to make arrangements and pay for the guns. All of a sudden just before Ruby come in they couldn’t go, and right after Ruby left they were on the plane the next morning, so to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby hand any money to anybody?

Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see any money handed to anyone else.

Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. So the way it was left then, these people, the others, were going to go to Mexico——

Mrs. RICH. Actually they were going to leave not the day following, but the day after that—2 days later they were going to leave for Mexico. I just assumed that that was money that Ruby brought in. Because before that they could not go, they did not have the finances, and after he left they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they say they did not have the finances, or was it your assumption that they did not?

Mrs. RICH. When someone is stalling around, and not setting a concrete date and saying, “Well, we have to wait” and that it will get here soon, and statements like that that I hear in conversation, then all of a sudden in comes a man with a bulge and hands it to the colonel in the back room, so to speak, and all of a sudden, boom, the reservations are made then and there, I think that is a pretty good assumption.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those are the facts that you observed upon which you base the assumptions that you have made.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And the big sigh of relief, so to speak, afterwards.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you then ask about your portion of the money?

Mrs. RICH. At that time it was to be decided, as I say, among the bigwigs. I had asked for $25,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before Ruby came in?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; in fact it was just a few minutes before he knocked on the door. They decided they did not know, and they were going to have a meeting—there were some other people involved higher up than they were. They would have to talk it over with them. At that time I had it in my mind I would go ahead and play ball—and I was stalling when I asked for the $25,000—that I would notify the Federal authorities. As I say, bringing the refugees out is one thing. Running in guns is another thing, for a Communist country which at that time it was.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that meeting last?

Mrs. RICH. They were still going when we left. And we were there about 2½ hours.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you and your husband?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Dave remained behind?

Mrs. RICH. He remained. Well, actually at that point business was over, and it just became a party. Neither my husband nor I drink, so we left.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave it with them? Who was going to make the next move?

Mrs. RICH. We were to be notified as to the time and place of the next meeting and as to the decision on upping the ante, so to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. They did not reject your offer of $25,000?

Mrs. RICH. It was to be discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. $10,000 was all right.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; $10,000 was offered.

Mr. HUBERT. $25,000, which was your counter offer, had to be discussed.

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And they told you they would discuss that and let you know.

Mrs. RICH. With some other people that were higher up.

Mr. HUBERT. They told you they were higher up?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; the colonel said that they were higher up. I do not know the exact words.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?

Mrs. RICH. I think his exact words were something like “I will discuss it with my bosses.”

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mrs. RICH. Well, about 3 or 4 days later we were told there was going to be another meeting to attend. Dave came over and told us. And we went. And——

Mr. HUBERT. What happened at that meeting? First of all, who was there? How did you go?

Mrs. RICH. My husband and I.

Mr. HUBERT. You went in your car?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car did you have?

Mrs. RICH. At that time I believe we had a 1956 blue and white Ford, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. What license plate?

Mrs. RICH. Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the name of Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you went with your husband. This was the third visit. Same place?

Mrs. RICH. Same place.

Mr. HUBERT. Same apartment?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. No change in the furniture or decorations or anything of that sort?

Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I did not really notice.

Mr. HUBERT. And this third meeting was about 4 or 5 days after the first?

Mrs. RICH. Three or four; after the second.

Mr. HUBERT. How were you notified to come to the first meeting?

Mrs. RICH. To come to the first meeting?

Mr. HUBERT. No; the third.

Mrs. RICH. Dave.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Dave was the man who was in between, as it were.

Mrs. RICH. Well, Dave was in it. It was only because he was our friend.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he to get anything out of it?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know; never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you discuss that with him?

Mrs. RICH. In that sort of business, you don’t discuss things, apparently.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did.

Mrs. RICH. Well, not to that point. It wouldn’t have done me any good. I would have just gotten a “none of your business” answer.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that to be a fact, did you?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. RICH. Well, call it intuition. I don’t know. I just wouldn’t have gotten an answer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that Dave expected some money?

Mrs. RICH. I suppose so. I never did get his position quite clear in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. He was the one that had brought you into the picture in the first place.

Mrs. RICH. Yes. It seemed to me like a front man for them, or something, or a recruiter almost.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were concerned about the question of money involved in this thing, because as you said you let them know that you would have a say about this.

Mrs. RICH. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did not discuss with Dave whether he was to be paid by you or the other side, as it were.

Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; he wasn’t to be paid by us. He brought us into the group, so to speak. The only thing I could make him out to be is a recruiter. Not to be paid by us. Nothing was ever mentioned of Dave going on any of these trips.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was not to get a fee for finding you.

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not raise the point with him.

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did your husband, to your knowledge.

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I didn’t ask him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it concern you that Dave might want some of the money that you were going to get?

Mrs. RICH. Not particularly, because at that time I had already made up my mind to go to the authorities with it.

Mr. HUBERT. You had made up your mind when?

Mrs. RICH. After the second meeting, I found out they were going to run rifles in, and military supplies and things that apparently—again apparently were being pilfered from a base somewhere.

Mr. HUBERT. You made up your mind at the end really of the second meeting.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; and then they said to run rifles and stolen military supplies in—that was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your husband so?

Mrs. RICH. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Dave so?

Mrs. RICH. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the authorities?

Mrs. RICH. I never had the chance.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us why?

Mrs. RICH. Well, we went back to that third meeting and apparently by mutual consent we got out of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at the third meeting, including who was there.

Mrs. RICH. Well, who was there—there was the colonel, again this pugnacious-looking fellow who supposedly had gone to Mexico and been back; the Latin-looking fellow and the other one with him who might have been Latin wasn’t there—this woman was there. And another man I had not seen before, but whose face rang a bell. And I could not put a name to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been able to do so?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was it?

Mrs. RICH. Again, unless I am awfully mistaken, and I have yet to be able to find a picture of this man, but I recall seeing a picture and I know why I had associated him—of his father.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose father?

Mrs. RICH. This particular man. Now, again, what I am about to say is not fact. It is something that I have never quite been able to get clear in my mind and never will, until I can find a picture. Unless I am very mistaken, the man at that third meeting was Vito Genovese’s son.

Mr. HUBERT. He was not introduced as such?

Mrs. RICH. He was introduced as Tony. That was all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Vito Genovese?

Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.

Mr. HUBERT. But you knew his picture.

Mrs. RICH. I had seen his picture.

Mr. HUBERT. You thought there was a resemblance between that picture and this man?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. For a week this bothered me. And all of a sudden it came crystal clear.

Mr. HUBERT. What became clear?

Mrs. RICH. That unless I was way off base, that is who it was. And I do know that a lot of people——

Mr. HUBERT. It was a week after the third meeting?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. I had been trying to put a name to that face.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what else happened at the third meeting?

Mrs. RICH. Well, No. 1, the raise of ante was turned down. The colonel asked us if we would accept $15,000. My husband started to say something. I hushed him up and said “No.” I said, “I don’t know. I want some time to think about it.” So then the phone rang, and quite a lengthy conversation took place in the other room. I could not swear to who was on the other end of the phone, I have a pretty good idea. And the colonel came back out and said, “I don’t know. We are going to call this off for a while anyway. There has just been a change of plans. We are going to have to postpone this for 3 or 4 months. There will be one more meeting.” And at that time I stood up and I said, “Look, quite frankly I don’t believe we want any part of this at all.” All I wanted to do then and there was to get the devil out of there. I quite frankly was scared. So I grabbed my old man and we cleared out.

Mr. HUBERT. But before clearing out, you told them you wanted no part of it.

Mrs. RICH. Yes; that was after the colonel had said there was going to be a 3- or 4-month delay and change of plans, and all this, that and the other. I did not quite figure that maybe things were kosher.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they accept your suggestion that you would bail out?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. We left. I wasn’t going to wait around to find out.

Mr. HUBERT. So you never did report it to the authorities.

Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. RICH. Well, my husband got picked up in Dallas, and I will never know if this was true—he said it wasn’t—the policeman said it was. My husband had a .45. It was not registered.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean a pistol?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; a service automatic. He had no right carrying it. He had it in the car. At that time he had a little old Nash Rambler station wagon of his own. This cop says when he picked my husband up my husband was standing in a little clearing beside the road there on the way out to Rayburn, brandishing a gun around saying he was going to kill somebody. He come to find out if it was a cop he was going to kill. I will never know to this day whether this was true or not.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did this happen?

Mrs. RICH. That happened between the second and third meeting, if my time elements are right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your husband arrested?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. That is when this Sy Victorson I mentioned earlier in my testimony came in. He was an attorney. Perhaps not too honest in some of the things he does, but a good attorney. And he got my husband out of it. I had to pay some money. I will never know to this day whether it was true. I can’t believe it.

Mr. HUBERT. And that event took place between the second and third meeting, is that right?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did you leave Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, possibly 2 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the reason for leaving Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. The minute I put a name to that face I said to Bob, “We are getting out of here, and we are getting out fast, right now.” That was about 5 o’clock at night. At 8 o’clock we was packed in a U-Haul trailer and out.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did not put the name to the face at the third meeting.

Mrs. RICH. No; not until about a week later.

Mr. HUBERT. You then drove to New Orleans?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. But by then everything had fallen into place, because Ruby had had various characters visit him, both from New York, Chicago, even from up in Minneapolis.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to some of them. I was asked to go out with some of them.

(At this point, a short recess was taken.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think we left off at the place where you were saying that subsequent to the third meeting Ruby was visited by certain people whose names I do not think you mentioned.

Mrs. RICH. No; this was prior. This is while I worked for Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mrs. RICH. I saw them come and go.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting?

Mrs. RICH. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the second.

Mrs. RICH. Oh, perhaps on the street.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not converse with him about this matter at all?

Mrs. RICH. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man.

Mr. HUBERT. And your reason for leaving Dallas, you say, was that——

Mrs. RICH. I smelled an element that I did not want to have any part of.

Mr. HUBERT. And that element was what?

Mrs. RICH. Police characters, let’s say.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically it was, as I understood your testimony, that you suddenly identified the man who was at the third meeting, but not at any other, as possibly being the son of Vito Genovese.

Mrs. RICH. Possibly.

Mr. HUBERT. And that you made that recognition, or you associated that man whom you saw with Vito Genovese, solely because you had seen a picture of Vito Genovese.

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you came to the conclusion, then, that Vito Genovese and that group of people were involved in this matter.

Mrs. RICH. Within my own mind; yes. I thought—then I got thinking perhaps the higher-up that the colonel spoke of was perhaps the element I did not want to deal with that was running the guns in, and God knows what else.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you report it to the authorities in the interval between the third meeting and the time you left Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason that I was hesitant about mentioning anything about my husband’s past. I did not know how much of what my husband had told me was true. I did not know how much of that he knew before I knew it, or how deeply he was involved in anything. And quite frankly if my husband was still alive, I would never have gone to the FBI.

Mr. HUBERT. But you already told us at the end of the second meeting you had decided to tell the authorities.

Mrs. RICH. Not when I see that element there.

Mr. HUBERT. But that element does not affect——

Mrs. RICH. That element, if what my husband had told me was true, could have involved him a lot deeper than I suspected. And quite frankly I am not stupid enough, shall we say, to believe if I ever went to the authorities and that element was involved that I would ever live to tell a second story. And if my suppositions were true as to who the man’s identity really is—a combination of fear for myself and protecting my husband. And at that time I thought, I suppose many citizens do, well, let the next fellow do it, they will catch them eventually. I chose to close my eyes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You still have the fear of that element?

Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that?

Mrs. RICH. Well, since then I have become involved more extensively or intensively in police work—and I don’t know—perhaps I have got some sense in my head. I am just not. I was told to tell you this—by the way, I had better bring it in now—I don’t know if it has any direct result on this or not—but I was advised by Mr. Sweeny from the Secret Service and Mr. Fahety from the FBI to tell you of this. A week——

Mr. HUBERT. When did Mr. Sweeny and Mr. Fahety tell you what you are about to tell us?

Mrs. RICH. Fahety said it on Monday—Sweeny said it on Monday.

Mr. HUBERT. Last Monday?

Mrs. RICH. Yesterday. And Fahety told me Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. On the phone, when I talked to the FBI and the Secret Service, respectively.

Mr. HUBERT. You did?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They called you?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did they tell you?

Mrs. RICH. Well, the FBI had called me to advise me of my receiving this letter, because Kennett had called them. And Sweeny called me to advise me of my tickets and transportation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called the FBI?

Mrs. RICH. Rod Kennett had opened the letter from you people. And at this time——

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what they advised you.

Mrs. RICH. They advised me to tell you what I am about to tell you. A week ago last Saturday night I got home about 10:30, my brother-in-law had a stroke——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get the date of that.

Mrs. RICH. That would be a week ago last Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday was the 30th—the 23d of May.

Mrs. RICH. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mrs. RICH. About 10:30 at night I got home. And some phone calls started. Again, let me say this may not or it may have a bearing on this. My life was directly threatened. I called the Hanover police—something I very seldom will do. But I panicked. They also phoned my husband’s office. He was working that night on dispatch at the cab company. They threatened my life with him. Sometimes they would call and say something, sometimes just hang up, sometimes just giggle. But they directly threatened my life. I thought perhaps it was something to do with various police organization work I had done, somebody had a grudge or something, or a crank, or anything. The phone calls stopped and they started again. I called the police department again. But then I was in hysterics.

Last Thursday I was on my way from my home up to North Attleboro, Mass. For approximately 30 miles I was followed, and subsequently, up until last Sunday I have had a tail on me. I notified the Mansfield police. They got the registration number and the name of the fellow following me. And he could give no reason why he was almost 60 or 70 miles from where he lived.

Mr. HUBERT. And the Mansfield police have a record of that?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Mansfield, Mass.

Mr. HUBERT. And you also reported it to the police of——

Mrs. RICH. Hanover—the phone calls; yes. May I also add at this time that due to a personal contact of mine, I will be doing, not for pay but as a favor, a little bit of looking into a few matters for the Mansfield Police Department for Chief D’Alefie, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. He recently contacted you?

Mrs. RICH. Well, the day I was up there we got talking and come to find out I could probably help him—in fact, me being here today stopped me from actually doing it.

Mr. HUBERT. And the day you saw him was last Thursday?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was at that time he said he might be able to use your services?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; most definitely. And then again, come Friday, and I get notification of this, I was just wondering whether or not it added in. It may and it may not. But I was told to tell you. And I have done so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened on Friday?

Mrs. RICH. No. I received notification, your letter.

Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean.

Mrs. RICH. And I wondered if it did not somehow have a bearing on this.

Mr. HUBERT. But this tailing was after you got the letter, and after you had spoken to——

Mrs. RICH. No; it started the day before. It was the same week. Thursday I started to be tailed. Rod got the letter Thursday, called the FBI, and God knows how many people he told. Thursday afternoon I picked up a tail.

Mr. HUBERT. And you reported that to the Mansfield police.

Mrs. RICH. That was the first time I saw a policeman that I could pull over and say, “Get the guy, he is tailing me.” And he most definitely was.

Mr. HUBERT. But there were two occasions when you observed that you were being tailed.

Mrs. RICH. No; from last Thursday up until Sunday night I had a tail on me.

Mr. HUBERT. But you reported to the chief of police in Mansfield on Thursday that you had a tail on you.

Mrs. RICH. The Mansfield police is the one that caught the guy that was tailing me Thursday. I have not had a chance to report——

Mr. HUBERT. It was a different person, then, you think.

Mrs. RICH. The person that has been tailing me Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is not the same person that has been tailing me Thursday. They caught the guy Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile was it that was tailing you?

Mrs. RICH. Thursday?

Mr. HUBERT. No. Well, Thursday first.

Mrs. RICH. Thursday was a black Pontiac, Massachusetts registration, a Mr. Alberto, from Hyde Park. They got him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is his name, Alberto?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?

Mrs. RICH. I have forgotten.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other car that has been tailing you?

Mrs. RICH. Plural.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mrs. RICH. More than one.

Mr. HUBERT. More than one individual, or more than one car, or both?

Mrs. RICH. Both. Friday and Saturday it was a green, I would say, probably 1961, 1962 Chevrolet.

Mr. HUBERT. Green?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same man?

Mrs. RICH. No; it was not. It was an older man. The fellow following me was probably maybe 21, 23 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the first fellow.

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Friday and Saturday it was the same man?

Mrs. RICH. Middle aged; I didn’t get a real good look at him—I would say probably in his forties. He rather looked to be a husky-looking fellow. And Sunday I picked up a tail, and it was a man and a woman. And I thought I recognized the girl, and I cannot be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Same automobile?

Mrs. RICH. No; it was not the same vehicle.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that automobile.

Mrs. RICH. The vehicle that was on me Sunday was a blue two-door hardtop. And I do not know the make of the car.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have not reported those last incidents?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, they tailed you from where to where?

Mrs. RICH. Wherever I went. I would leave the house, and believe me I think I know when I am being tailed. When I pull over to the side of the road, and a car pulls up and doesn’t pass me—I will do this two or three times. And when I take a turnoff where nobody else will take, and the car is still there, I think they are tailing me.

Mr. HUBERT. You tried to shake them?

Mrs. RICH. Precisely.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were not able to do so.

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When you get to your house, did they park around it?

Mrs. RICH. The one time the man did, down on the bridge—the boundary line to our property is a river. And he sat down there and pretended to be looking in the water. And then I would see him down by Jordan’s, which is an eating house. Then he would be cruising around. And finally he would give up and go away. And in a couple of hours he would be back. Every time I took the car out, they were there.

Mr. HUBERT. What about at night? Did you observe anything?

Mrs. RICH. I didn’t go out at night.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you did not observe anything.

Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t bother. Saturday I went to Maine—took my daughter down to my mother’s. I had the green car on my tail all the way to Maine and back.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to Washington to come to this deposition?

Mrs. RICH. By plane; American Airlines.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything about being tailed in that regard?

Mrs. RICH. I didn’t notice. I don’t think I was. I left my house in my own car and drove to North Quincy, where I was subsequently picked up by Mr. Milton of the Secret Service and taken directly to the airport, and he stayed with me until I left. I was subsequently met here by Bill something-or-other of the Secret Service. Now, as I say, this may or may not—quite frankly, I don’t think it does have any bearing on this. But I think it is something entirely different. I think it has to do with the names of some bookmakers and a couple of abortionists I turned in to the district attorney in Boston.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned to me earlier that this card which has been identified as Exhibit No. 3 is a card that is usually issued—am I not right—that it is a card usually issued under the requirements of California law to a person who has got a record; is that correct?

Mrs. RICH. No; that is not correct. No. 1, the card is obsolete. That is why it was back-dated. It was merely a pawnshop identification card.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that it would establish your status in someway for, I think you used the word, obvious purposes. What would this card do in connection with the work that you were supposed to do?

Mrs. RICH. Well, the card in itself, nothing. It would prove I was there when I said I was, because I had to attend associations with certain people, who at that time were safely tucked away, but at the time I was supposedly supposed to be there they were not—I was supposedly supposed to have worked for these people. If I recall correctly I said that I have a police record under that same name of Julie Anne Cody.

Mr. HUBERT. And that name—that police record—is a fictitious record in the sense that the offenses listed under the name of Julie Anne Cody really did not ever occur.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any record under your right name?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, I do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Mrs. RICH. That is in Brookline, Mass., and it is a record for prostitution.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that fictitious?

Mrs. RICH. That is not.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only record you have?

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct—that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I assume that you would know all the records you have.

Mrs. RICH. Well, when I say that, I was picked up twice in Dallas and both times the charges were dropped—as far as I know. That is what Sy Victorson told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged?

Mrs. RICH. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever booked?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were arrested.

Mrs. RICH. Yes. One time I was in jail for a couple of hours, the other time 5 hours, because they could not get hold of Sy, who was on the golf course.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told why you were being arrested?

Mrs. RICH. I was arrested for investigation of vag, narcotics——

Mr. HUBERT. Of what?

Mrs. RICH. Vag—vagrancy. Narcotics, prostitution, and anything else they could dream up. This is very shortly after I had threatened to go and bring suit against Mr. Ruby. I was told I might find the climate outside of Dallas a little more to my liking if I didn’t take the advice of the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?

Mrs. RICH. The time I went down and wanted to bring charges against Ruby for assault and battery, I was told not to, and at that time I was also advised—I was not told to leave the city or anything like that, but that it was nice in Chicago, for instance, that time of year.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that you did not remember the name of the man.

Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember the name of the detective that I spoke to; no.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was the detective on the police force?

Mrs. RICH. He was. Jack Ruby is very well known in Dallas. A little too well known.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. RICH. Just a personal opinion. I believe—now, this is not a fact, this is just talk, this is just personal opinion—I believe at the time of the—am I naming it correctly—Oswald assassination, it was claimed that Ruby got in there pretending to be a reporter. Am I correct that that was in the printed page?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what comment have you got to make to that?

Mrs. RICH. Anyone that made that statement would be either a damn liar or a damn fool.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. RICH. There is no possible way that Jack Ruby could walk in Dallas and be mistaken for a newspaper reporter, especially in the police department. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your opinion?

Mrs. RICH. That is not my personal opinion. That is a fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on what do you base it?

Mrs. RICH. Ye gods, I don’t think there is a cop in Dallas that doesn’t know Jack Ruby. He practically lived at that station. They lived in his place. Even the lowest patrolman on the beat. He is a real fanatic on that, anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say even the lowest patrolman on the beat, what do you mean?

Mrs. RICH. Everybody from the patrolmen on the beat in uniform to, I guess everybody with the exception of Captain Fritz, used to come in there, knew him personally. He used to practically live at the station. I am not saying that Captain Fritz didn’t know him. I am saying he was never—I have never seen him in the Carousel. He has always been, I think, a little too far above things for that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have seen other high-ranking officers there?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?

Mrs. RICH. I would if I could. I would be only too glad to.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don’t know?

Mrs. RICH. I cannot recall names, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were high-ranking officers?

Mrs. RICH. At that time I knew them. Two years from now, if somebody asked me your name, I would remember I knew you, I had seen you, but I could not tell him your name.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember Captain Fritz’ name.

Mrs. RICH. Everybody remembers Captain Fritz. Will Fritz is quite a famous man. And I would say he is of the highest integrity. Probably the only one I know of on the police department that is.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned in one interview you had with the FBI that you had some information that a contact in regard to this gunrunning business was to be made at the Hotel Nueva Gallina in the city of Guadalajara, Mexico. Is that correct?

Mrs. RICH. To the best of my knowledge; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information from?

Mrs. RICH. In the conversation at the second or third meeting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that to the FBI people in any of your interviews prior to January?

Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I never talked about it prior to the time I went there.

Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to the FBI in November and again in December.

Mrs. RICH. Let’s put it this way. When you say prior to me going to the FBI—I went to the FBI the first time I believe in Oakland. And I do not recall whether or not I told them the first time or the second time about that. Whichever time I told them, I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a fact, is it not, that you contacted the FBI in Brookline, Mass., sometime in January to tell them that you had been going through some things of yours and had additional information.

Mrs. RICH. I believe it was in January. It was in Boston, by the way.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in Boston?

Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe it was Mr. Stoddard I talked to.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the additional information?

Mrs. RICH. Right now I do not even remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that you found something among your things which indicated that the contact during the gunrunning proposition was supposed to be at this hotel in Guadalajara?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what it was I turned up. I think it was then—I know I turned up an address book with a telephone number in it. I forgot whether that was here or in Oakland. And some cards. I know what it was. It was on the back of a business card. That’s right. It was on the back of a business card I turned that up. Yes; it was when I called them—because I had gone through my strongbox after my stuff had got here.

Mr. HUBERT. But the information that you had gotten concerning the contact point as being in this hotel in Guadalajara, that information was obtained by you at one of the meetings that you have just described.

Mrs. RICH. It was obtained there; yes. And if I remember, it had eluded me when I first talked to them. And if I am not mistaken—I should have brought it—I have it on the back of a business card at home, that I turned up among some of my old business cards from Dallas in an envelope. Now, whether or not I had recalled that and told them at the first meeting or whether it was part of the additional information I don’t remember. But it seems to me I turned that business card up and did not remember that at the first talking with the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose name was on the front of the business card?

Mrs. RICH. Some advertising agency. It was just some card I marked it down on.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the advertising business in 1961?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mrs. RICH. In Boston. I handled the National Automatic Merchandising Association NAMA Week.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?

Mrs. RICH. The first week in April we had the Governor proclaim it.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said that the contact was going to be at this hotel in Guadalajara?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know which one said it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember at what meeting this was said?

Mrs. RICH. I believe at the third—the second. I wouldn’t swear, but I think the third.

Mr. HUBERT. It was definitely not the first.

Mrs. RICH. No; definitely not the first. Either the second or the third.

Mr. HUBERT. It was at the second that you had raised your price, I think, to $25,000.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was either that meeting or the third meeting that you got the information about the contact point being in this hotel.

Mrs. RICH. I am not sure which one it was, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you did not know where this house was located in Dallas.

Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t give you a street; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general area of Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. I am sorry, sir, I wish I could. I would recognize the house if I saw it. I cannot explain the human mind to you. Why is it that sometimes if you don’t want to remember something, you can block things off? It was something distasteful to me. I have perhaps not been a model person but——

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from this man Dave since you left Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Dave Cherry mean anything to you?

Mrs. RICH. That’s it. I have been wracking my brain for that name. A swell-looking fellow—crewcut, young, real college-looking type.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?

Mrs. RICH. A couple of months.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?

Mrs. RICH. University Club. I believe I met him there. Just precisely where I met him I don’t know. I think the University Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that prior to the time your husband came to Dallas?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember if I met him before or after, to be truthful.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he was the man who made the contact.

Mrs. RICH. Again, as I told the FBI, I will swear about 99 percent of it that he was the one.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you went there—he was present at three meetings.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew him for 2 months prior to that.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct—about.

Mr. HUBERT. Why should there be any doubt in your mind whatsoever?

Mrs. RICH. Because somewhere another face keeps popping up. And don’t ask me to go into it, because I could not if I tried.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you think it might not be Dave Cherry?

Mrs. RICH. No; that it is. I am about 1 percent unsure. And I told the FBI that. But that is the only face I can put with that. And I keep putting Dave in that car and over there with us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you advise your husband about being tailed recently?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; my husband is aware of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now——

Mrs. RICH. As I say, I don’t believe this has anything to do with this at all. I told you merely because I was told to. Otherwise I would never point it out.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we ought to get for the record what the names of these Secret Service and FBI agents are. I think you mentioned their last names. Do you know their first names?

Mrs. RICH. No; I do not, sir. I would not know them if I saw them.

Mr. HUBERT. They just spoke to you on the telephone?

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were FBI agents?

Mrs. RICH. The first time when Mr. Fahety called me I was not sure, and I would not answer any questions. So he said, “Call me back collect” and I called the FBI back collect and it was true enough. Mr. Sweeny I know it was, because he said he bought the tickets and had information only the Secret Service would know, and that Mr. Milton would pick me up subsequently, which he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned, I think, Mrs. Rich, that you were going to use a boat to transport the guns to Cuba and the people back.

Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this boat located?

Mrs. RICH. From what I understood; in Miami.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a boat was it?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I was under the impression it might have been an old picket boat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?

Mrs. RICH. Just the talk about it. I kind of got the impression that it might have been one that had been—you know how the Coast Guard and the Navy would sell them off sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Dave Cherry been a friend of your husband’s?

Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t believe so. I do not know who his friends were when he was in Dallas. Eddie Brawner and Youngblood were. Eddie Brawner could probably tell you more on this than I could; because my husband talked to him and wanted to go on the boat with him. He and Eddie used to race stock cars and stuff. And he told me—my husband claimed he used to work for Herb Noble in Dallas. There is something else. And Al Meadows. Al Meadows claimed he never saw him. He is another underworld character—back there in prohibition. And they used to run an Oklahoma gin. My husband claimed he was the only one alive who knew who gunned Herb Noble down, and that he never told. And I don’t know if it is true. Eddie Brawner was supposed to be in on this with him. I think he told Eddie all about this, more than I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your husband came to Dallas did Dave Cherry meet him?

Mrs. RICH. I could not really say, actually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what was the nature of his friendship for Dave Cherry?

Mrs. RICH. How did he meet him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. To what extent were they friendly?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. They would go off some time and I would not even be there. Actually a lot of the stuff that transpired I could not tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before or after the meeting with the colonel?

Mrs. RICH. He know Dave before the meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how had he met him?

Mrs. RICH. Through me. And then again I am not clear whether I met him—this is another point I am not clear on. I am not clear whether Bob met Dave and introduced him to me or I introduced Dave to Bob. Here again I am not clear. This may sound ridiculous, but I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your husband’s experience with boats?

Mrs. RICH. Again, factually I cannot tell you. Supposedly he had been in gun running before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the only experience you know of that he had with boats?

Mrs. RICH. He claimed he owned a big boat, he and Lee Dell owned a big boat out in California. I guess he did because he had pictures of it and him working around it. I still have the pictures. Now, Lee Dell, there is another man could probably shed some light on this. But God knows where he is. I never met the man. You see, I don’t know just exactly what I was involved in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t know what your role was to be in this?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, you mean in this gun-running stuff to Cuba?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICH. Just by sheer force of will and apparently because they wanted my husband, I was going to go along.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to go along as a passenger?

Mrs. RICH. I was going to help working the boat, because I had knowledge of boats.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What knowledge did you have of the boats?

Mrs. RICH. I was born and brought up in Biddeford, Maine. I have worked on lobster boats a good many years off and on. My uncle owns them.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any occasion on which you went to the University Club and had some drinks and didn’t pay for them?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t think I ever paid for drinks at the University Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mrs. RICH. Dave never took money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go alone?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. I believe so. Maybe, maybe not.

Mr. HUBERT. But they would not take your money?

Mrs. RICH. Dave never charged me. He always told me it was all right. And I don’t drink anyway. All I drink is coke. Once in a great, great while I will drink either a grasshopper or like last night I was all keyed up so I had a brandy Alexander before I went to bed. But I might have done this five times in 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an argument you had with your former and deceased husband, Robert Perrin, in the University Club, which argument was witnessed by Dave Cherry?

Mrs. RICH. I never had an argument with my husband in the University Club or anywhere else.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the manager of the University Club telling you that neither you nor your husband could return to the club thereafter?

Mrs. RICH. I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever telephone Cherry advising him that you were leaving for New Orleans and that you expected to work for the Playboy Club there?

Mrs. RICH. I believe I did. I might have, because that is what my plans happened to have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact work for the Playboy Club?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did.

Mr. HUBERT. For how long?

Mrs. RICH. 2 or 3 nights.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened?

Mrs. RICH. I didn’t like it. For one thing, you were not allowed to keep tips.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in New Orleans?

Mrs. RICH. Part of the time down in one of the Sisters’ places, down in the French Quarter, on St. Philip’s Street. And then 1713 Calhoun. That is where my husband died. And various other places which I cannot remember, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband do for a living while you were in New Orleans?

Mrs. RICH. The last time he had the best position I have ever seen him hold. He was working for a construction company.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. Dickie Bennett, Mr. McHane, those were two of his bosses—Mr. White.

Mr. HUBERT. What construction was he working on?

Mrs. RICH. Well, he was a mechanic for the heavy equipment. He was just getting a raise and everything when this happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the location where he was working?

Mrs. RICH. Yes, out in Jeff Parish.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the building going up there?

Mrs. RICH. No, they had this contract for the phone company. They would lay all their roads, and the poles and stuff, and various things. He would go out on jobs. I got him the job through Dickie Bennett.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not work at that time?

Mrs. RICH. I——

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the time you were in New Orleans.

Mrs. RICH. I would rather not answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This——

Mrs. RICH. I will answer to this extent. For one thing, I dealt black jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Rich, you mentioned the name of a man by the name of Brawner. Now, did Mr. Brawner ever attend any of these meetings with the colonel?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only knowledge of this would be what your husband might have told him.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Mr. Brawner do for a living?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t know what Eddie does—odd jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is he?

Mrs. RICH. Middle age—40, maybe. Does a lot of work with kids in these go carts—soap box derbies and stuff. I guess they used to be in the carnival together. As I say, everything I say, I don’t know how much truth there is in it from what my husband told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does Mr. Brawner live?

Mrs. RICH. Grand Prairie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where in Grand Prairie?

Mrs. RICH. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he married?

Mrs. RICH. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; he does. I believe his wife’s name is Mary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children does he have?

Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember—quite a few—three or four.

I would like one thing known. Until the time I met my husband and since he died I have done nothing that I would be ashamed of, nothing I would not do in public. Now that I am married to Mr. Rich I do not want any recriminations due to the fact of the period of time I was married to my husband. My husband—the first year and a half of our marriage was beautiful. Then my husband turned me out. Don’t ask me why I didn’t leave him. Everyone else asked me that. It is not easy being something that is against everything that you believe in or stand for 2 years. There were periods—I told the FBI this, and I might as well state it right here. I was a prostitute—call it what you may—call girl, madam. It still boils down to the same damn thing. When I worked, he worked. When I quit, he quit.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Robert Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. I am talking about Robert Perrin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Perrin?

Mrs. RICH. July of—August of 1960, I believe—1961. I have forgotten.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to that time you had never been in any trouble with the police?

Mrs. RICH. No; except when I was 16, I was driving a car with no license and had been taking some medicine and I hit a pole with it, and lied to my uncle, who was the judge, and he made me pay a fine. He made me spend overnight in our own little jail in our own little town to teach me a lesson, and it did. He said if I had not lied, it would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the significance of your remark that when you worked he worked, and when you did not work——

Mrs. RICH. As long as I was hustling he would work, and as long as I wasn’t hustling he would not work.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean he was——

Mrs. RICH. My husband turned me out. That is what it means.

Mr. HUBERT. Turned you out of the house?

Mrs. RICH. This is an expression used in that particular trade.

Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is——

Mrs. RICH. He taught me how to be a prostitute, obtained dates for me, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I married into a very respectable family. I come from a respectable family. And I came here today all set on any question such as this to take the fifth amendment, or just refuse to answer.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, ma’am, let the record show that a moment ago, when you said you would rather not go into this, you were not pressed into going into it, but you said you wished to do so, is that correct?

Mrs. RICH. That is not correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the situation?

Mrs. RICH. Why did I do it?

Mr. HUBERT. No; why did you tell us about this?

Mrs. RICH. I am sorry. Change my statement from that is not correct to that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say a moment ago—let me get this clear—when you said that is a matter you did not want to go into, you will agree with me, will you not, that I did not pursue the matter, but that you then said “I might as well tell you” and proceeded to do so.

Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Why did I do so?

Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; I am not asking you why.

Mrs. RICH. All right, that’s fine.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we do have the date of your husband’s death.

Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962, city of New Orleans.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say there was an autopsy made?

Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was. He had been dead 2 days before I knew it. I wasn’t there. I think all I felt was a great sense of relief.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mrs. Rich, is it not a fact that there has been no off-the-record conversation between us at all?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct?

Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that all that has occurred between you and me in this interview, with Mr. Griffin, is all on the record?

Mrs. RICH. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rich.

TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY

The testimony of Earl Ruby was taken at 9 a.m., on June 3, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Earl Ruby.

My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Under the provisions of the Presidential Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission, in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized by the Commission to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and about any possible relationship of Jack Ruby with that death, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Ruby, I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the staff of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that received?

Mr. RUBY. I received that Monday when I returned home from work about 7 p.m., it was waiting for me.

Mr. HUBERT. It was June 1?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of it?

Mr. RUBY. That it was mailed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. It was mailed May 28.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there is any problem about it, but just to make certain, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day notice if he wishes. I think that there has actually been a 3-day notice under the rules of the Commission since the 3 days commence to run from the time of the mailing of the document, but in this case, as I said, the rules provide that you can waive the 3-day written notice, and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive it and go on with your testimony today.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, and raise your right hand, so I may administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. RUBY. Earl R. Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. Forty-nine.

Mr. HUBERT. You are married?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who are you married to? What was the maiden name of the lady you married?

Mr. RUBY. Margie Greene.

Mr. HUBERT. And have you been married only once?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was married twice.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of your first wife?

Mr. RUBY. Mildred Brownstein.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry her, and where?

Mr. RUBY. I married her in Chicago in 1945.

Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?

Mr. RUBY. Through divorce.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the divorce obtained?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been married, then, twice only?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any children?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; three.

Mr. HUBERT. Any from the first marriage?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record, would you state the names of the children and their ages?

Mr. RUBY. Robert, 15 years of age; Denise, 13 years of age; and Joyce, 10 years of age.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you presently reside?

Mr. RUBY. 29925 Woodland Drive, Southfield, Mich.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Southfield near Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is a suburb, northwest suburb of Detroit.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, I wish to get some general background concerning you, starting off with where you were born and where you spent the early years of your life. Will you tell us, please?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. I was born in Chicago on April 16, 1915, and I lived on what is known as the east side of Chicago, and went to school in that area for a few years, and then my mother and father became separated, and I was sent to a foster home, and then I also was sent to live on a farm for a year, a little more than a year. Then I came back and lived in another foster home for awhile. Then we sort of, the family sort of, got together and I moved back with my mother and the rest of the family other than my father, and then we more or less lived together until I enlisted in the Service in 1942, and then my mother passed away in 1944, and then I became married in 1945. Is that skipping too much, do you think?

Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to go back a bit and get some dates on some of the things you have said there. For example, when did your father and mother separate so that home was broken?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t remember, it is so far.

Mr. HUBERT. How old were you, roughly?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know, 8, 7, 8, 9. I don’t even remember.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it would have been around the early 1920’s, 1922, 1923, 1924, somewhere along in there?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I don’t remember those dates at all.

Mr. HUBERT. What were the foster homes? Were they sort of orphanages?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or homes.

Mr. RUBY. Private homes.

Mr. HUBERT. Private homes?

Mr. RUBY. Private homes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you separated from your brothers and sisters when you went to the foster home, or did they go to the same foster home?

Mr. RUBY. On the farm I was with my brother Sam, and Jack was in another farm some distance away from us. In the foster home Sam and I were together again, I think, just Sam and I. Then in another foster home, I think Jack was with us. The three of us were in one foster home together.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you lived at what was called the east side in Chicago.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was like the ghetto of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get what sort of a neighborhood is that? What sort of a district was it?

Mr. RUBY. It was the Maxwell Street district of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe that a bit?

Mr. RUBY. It is where they have the pushcarts on the street. I don’t know a word that would describe that, but you know, have all their wares displayed right on the street and right on the sidewalk. It is several blocks long.

Mr. HUBERT. The foster homes were not in that neighborhood, were they?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were the farms?

Mr. RUBY. The farm that I was on was in Woodstock, Ill.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work were you doing on the farm?

Mr. RUBY. We helped the farmer, you know, with regular farm chores. We fed the cows and the horses and took the cows to the pasture and brought them back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school during all that time?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Even when you were on the farm?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. So that what is your educational background?

Mr. RUBY. I finished high school.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one?

Mr. RUBY. Crane High School in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other formal education in the sense of special training in any field?

Mr. RUBY. I would say no.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the background and early life of your brother Jack, say, from the time 1925 forward, 1930, along in there? I think he is a couple of years older than you.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. He is about 3 years older than I am. Well, I can tell you that he always seemed to be in fights in one manner or another that I can remember. He was like the bodyguard of the family, you might say, because in those years we lived a half block from Roosevelt Road, and on the other side of the road was the Italian section, and that was called, we used to call it Dago Town, and the Jews couldn’t go near that street. And my sisters, well, if they weren’t escorted to the streetcars then and nobody arranged to meet them at the streetcar when they returned from work, they would be insulted and abused. So that was, more or less, Jack’s job, if I recall, to meet them there.

He always had to go and meet them at the streetcar when they were returning from work. In the morning I don’t think it was so bad because so many people were going to the streetcar.

Mr. HUBERT. How old was Jack at that time that you are describing? I gather it would have been after the family was brought together again.

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. This goes back, it must have been in the twenties. Maybe he was 15 years old or so.

Mr. HUBERT. When did the family come back together again after having been separated?

Mr. RUBY. Maybe 1928 or 1929. I am not sure of these dates, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked is because I was under the impression that after your father left, there was a breakup of the family, and then you were not living in this section of Chicago.

Mr. RUBY. No. We moved west on Sacramento Boulevard. That is when I remember coming back to the family.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at are these instances that Jack had to act as bodyguard against the Italian element, as you put it. That was not when you were living in foster homes, was it?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor was it when you were living on the farm?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. That was in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. So it was either prior to the breakup of the family or afterwards?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. After the reconciliation, or was it both?

Mr. RUBY. I would say that I remember it was prior.

Mr. HUBERT. He was just a teenager then?

Mr. RUBY. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. When the family was brought together again, which was around 1928, where did the family live then?

Mr. RUBY. On Sacramento Boulevard in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is a different thing from the so-called east side?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is further west.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t have any such difficulties at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; we did, because even though we were west we were still borderlining the Italian element, but we were further west. But it was an improvement as to the other section.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the family remained more or less as a unit, I gather it is your testimony, until the war came.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Before the war Jack lived in San Francisco for awhile.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did he live there, do you know?

Mr. RUBY. It would be a few years. I don’t know exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. I think he went there with your sister.

Mr. RUBY. That is right, sir; and he was working for a newspaper selling subscriptions.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they went out to the west coast?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. It was just Eva and Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had the other girls married by then?

Mr. RUBY. I think one sister was married. I think my sister Ann was married by then.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever, yourself, been convicted of any felony?

Mr. RUBY. No; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business dealings at all with Jack prior to 1933, that is to say, prior to the time you moved to the west coast?

Mr. RUBY. Business dealings? No; because I was going to school then. I was in grammar school and high school.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1933 actually you were 18.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was in high school.

Mr. HUBERT. What about your business associations with Jack after his return from the west coast, until you went into the service? Did you have any?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. We worked together for, oh, I think maybe a year. He and another fellow, I think his name is Harry Epstein, organized the Spartan Novelty Co., which has been out of business for many years.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation?

Mr. RUBY. No; it was just a small company, very.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you a part of it then, or did you become a part of it?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was only an employee. I worked with them.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the business of that company?

Mr. RUBY. It was selling cedar chests with candy and punchcards.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that business last?

Mr. RUBY. Only until, I worked with them only until the war broke out, because I came back. I was working with them—right after the war broke out December 7, then February—some time in February—I enlisted in the Seabees of the Navy, and then I went into the service, and when I came out of the service, my other three brothers were still in, and I started up the same type of business, cedar chests with candy.

Mr. HUBERT. This Spartan Novelty Co. was really prior to the war then?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it lasted how many years?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I only worked for them about a year.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Epstein still living?

Mr. RUBY. Still living? Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?

Mr. RUBY. He sells, manufactures and sells—what would you call that—I think onyx desk sets. I did have business dealings then. Do you want me to go on now?

Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to ask you about a trip that I think you took to Seattle in 1941. Do you remember that?

Mr. RUBY. Seattle?

Mr. HUBERT. Washington; yes.

Mr. RUBY. Seattle in 1941. In 1942 in the service, 1942.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did go to Seattle?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, because I went through the Seabees. I was in the Seabees, and we shoved off from Bremerton, Wash., which, as you know, is right across the bay from Seattle. That is the only time I remember being there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the name of Daniel Sloan?

Mr. RUBY. I know the Sloan family in Chicago, but I don’t know if his name is Daniel.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any Sloan family, and particularly a Daniel Sloan, in Seattle?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that you did not visit him prior to the war at all?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or had you ever been to Seattle prior to the war?

Mr. RUBY. No. Only with the Seabees when we stayed at Camp—I can’t remember—I think it is Lewis, Fort Lewis there. We stayed with the Army because they had no facilities, and we then went across to Bremerton and we got on a ship there and left from there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to?

Mr. RUBY. The Aleutian Islands.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?

Mr. RUBY. In the service? About 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. And were you honorably discharged?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the service prior to the end of the war, then?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain how that came about?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I had some trouble with a varicocele in my testicles.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it is not varicose?

Mr. RUBY. No, they call it varicocele. It is a little different.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a medical discharge?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think it is called a medical.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any disability of such a nature that you received disability pay?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, 10 percent.

Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Anyhow, how this took place, they were going to operate, and they prepared me for the operation the night before. You know, they shaved me and all that, and give me the pill, the sleeping pill or whatever it was, and then the next morning I got up and I was dopey, of course, and I felt—and there was no operation—no pain, and I couldn’t understand it, and so when I was able enough to talk coherently I called the nurse and asked her what happened. She says they changed their mind, and they were going to discharge me from the service because they didn’t think I would be of much use to them after the operation. I think that was the reason, or they decided that.

Mr. HUBERT. So you left the service in 1944?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?

Mr. RUBY. Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you live with?

Mr. RUBY. The family.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do?

Mr. RUBY. And I started up this cedar chest business again.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a trade name then?

Mr. RUBY. I called it Earl Products Co.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any kind of a punchboard operation?

Mr. RUBY. No; that was before. That was the Spartan Novelty. Mine was just selling—no, I sold some punchboards, that is right. I sold some punchboards with my operation for about a year.

Mr. HUBERT. These were candy punchboards, were they?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where you might win some candy, is that correct, if you punched the right number?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they could win a box of candy or win a pen set, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. What area did you operate in as to the Earl Products Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I operated it through Earl Mail, more or less, through advertising in the Billboard Magazine, and I shipped in, it wasn’t a large operation, but I shipped out of State all the way across the country. I don’t remember the States, but I did ship quite a few States over the years.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were alone at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was by myself then.

Mr. HUBERT. Did your brothers ultimately join you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; as my brothers came out of the service, I took them in and gave them a piece of the business. First Sam came out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they invest?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or they just came in?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t put up any money?

Mr. RUBY. When Sam came out, I gave him half interest. Then when my oldest brother came out——

Mr. HUBERT. That is Jack?

Mr. RUBY. No; Hyman. And then I took him in. Then when Jack came out, then I took him in. So we were all together for not too long because it just wasn’t enough for all of us.

Mr. HUBERT. You all were sharing the profits?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Equally?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a salary or commission basis?

Mr. RUBY. I think we were sharing that equally. I am quite sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened to the company?

Mr. RUBY. Well, then my brother Hyman left us, and then there was Jack, Sam, and myself left.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Hyman leave for? What was the reason for his leaving?

Mr. RUBY. There just wasn’t enough money, and you know when there is not enough money we have a few arguments in the family, so he decided to leave.

Mr. HUBERT. What business did he go into?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember. I think he went himself in some company.

Mr. HUBERT. Then there were three of you. What happened then?

Mr. RUBY. Then my sister Eva had been in Dallas for, oh, a few years, and she had been writing to Jack and telling him how good it was down there.

Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing, do you recall?

Mr. RUBY. Running a nightclub. I think it was called the Silver Spur.

Mr. HUBERT. And then?

Mr. RUBY. So Jack and Sam had an argument, and so we just couldn’t get along, so we decided to buy Jack out.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you and Sam decided to do that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes, yes; and we then bought him out. I think we paid him something like $14,000 or $15,000, 14,000 and some hundred dollars, and he left for Dallas, and he remained there until the incident happened.

Mr. HUBERT. When he had the argument with Sam which led to his leaving the Earl Products Co., did he intend then to go to Dallas? Was that one of the causes for his leaving?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know what was in his mind. I don’t remember. I just don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. How was he paid?

Mr. RUBY. We paid him a lump sum, about $14,000 or $15,000, so when he left he had quite a bit of money.

Mr. HUBERT. In cash?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he had quite a bit of money.

Mr. HUBERT. And he left for Dallas shortly thereafter?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; very shortly thereafter he left.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been what year, sir; about?

Mr. RUBY. I think 1947; 1947.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep in contact with him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; we corresponded, not too often. We came up every few years. Of course, he came up for my mother’s funeral in 1944. Then he came up for my dad’s funeral.

Mr. HUBERT. He came from the service for your mother’s funeral, I suppose?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. At that time he was in the service.

Mr. HUBERT. And your father died in what year?

Mr. RUBY. 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you and your brother Sam changed your name from Rubenstein to Ruby by a court proceeding for that purpose?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a coordinated decision between you and Sam?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You know, do you not, that Jack did the same thing about the same time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that coordinated with him, too?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. In our conversations in telling him that we were doing it, maybe he decided to do it, but I don’t know if it had any bearing at all.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the change of name?

Mr. RUBY. Well, first, everybody called me Ruby, even in the service, and wherever I went they called me Ruby, so that was one of the reasons to change it.

Mr. HUBERT. After Jack left did you and Sam continue in business?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. For how long?

Mr. RUBY. For possibly 8 or 9 years, anyhow.

Mr. HUBERT. You still lived in Chicago at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the cause of the breakup of the Earl Products Co. which then consisted of you and Sam only, and of Sam’s removal to Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t like—he was supposed to handle the shop and I was handling the office and the advertising, and by this time, when I say “shop” you must understand we were now in the manufacturing business.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you manufacturing?

Mr. RUBY. We were manufacturing aluminum salt and pepper shakers, key chains, bottle openers, screw drivers, small hammers.

Mr. HUBERT. How large an operation was that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think our maximum sales there reached about a quarter of a million dollars.

Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have at the maximum?

Mr. RUBY. Its maximum we had there was probably 40 at any given time. Anyhow, he was supposed to run the shop and I was supposed to run the office, and I didn’t think he was taking care of the shop the way he should, and I told him several times, and finally he says, “Well, if you can do better, you can take care of that yourself,” and he didn’t report to work for almost a year.

In the meantime, I was giving him his check every week. So, finally I decided after waiting that long that the only thing to do was dissolve the partnership and buy him out.

Mr. HUBERT. How much did you pay him when you bought him out?

Mr. RUBY. I paid him a total of about $30,000.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you actually paid him a weekly salary check?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Although he didn’t do any work at all?

Mr. RUBY. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing as a matter of fact during that year?

Mr. RUBY. Nothing. He was just—just nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t even see him do you mean?

Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t see him for about almost a year.

Mr. HUBERT. And you made no effort to correct that situation?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I talked and members of the family talked to him, and finally in order to dissolve it, I even called Jack and had him come up from Dallas to see if he could, you know, make peace in the family, and he just couldn’t do it.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been around 1954 or 1955?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; right in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Then when you bought out Jack, did you continue to operate the Earl Products Co. alone?

Mr. RUBY. You mean Sam?

Mr. HUBERT. Sam I mean; yes.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I operated until 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened to the company?

Mr. RUBY. Then I sold it.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom?

Mr. RUBY. To Herschel Oliff, and the reason I sold it was I was manufacturing a line of novelties, and the Japan imports were just cutting down my business and I could see the handwriting on the wall, so I decided I had better get out while I can, which I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. RUBY. Then I didn’t work for, oh, 6 or 8 months.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were living off of the profits?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he was paying me.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the purchaser, Mr. Oliff, was paying you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he gave me so much down and so much a week so I was able to get along. Anyhow, at that time I became depressed and I was thinking of doing away with myself, so I went over to the veterans hospital in Chicago and talked to them over there, and they suggested I come in there, which I did, and I stayed a few weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were hospitalized?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; they hospitalized me in the psychopathic ward there, and I stayed there a week or two, and then I couldn’t see—there were so many of us and they couldn’t, at least I didn’t think they were helping me, so I left one day. I just up and walked out; but then I got sick again.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you became depressed again?

Mr. RUBY. I became depressed again.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a few days.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went back?

Mr. RUBY. So I went back again. Then I decided well, the only way I can help myself, I mean I can do myself any good, is get out of this place and get a job.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you married then?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That was to your first wife then?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Your second wife?

Mr. RUBY. Second wife, and I said I’ve got my family you know, I had better take care of them. The only thing that will help me, at least that was my thinking, is to go out and get a job and maybe that is what I need, you know, because I felt that I wouldn’t be able to hold a job or something. Anyhow those were my thoughts. So, I went out and got a job for Worldwide Music in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that work?

Mr. RUBY. They sell and place juke boxes.

The Seeberg Agency and the Rockola Distributors, a pretty big company, nice people, and I worked there about a year.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific job?

Mr. RUBY. I was, I would say assistant manager. I supervised the other men and the servicemen.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t actually make the contacts with the taverns?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, I made some of those; yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the machines were solely music machines?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. No slot machines?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. No slot machines. This is one of the better rated companies in this field, very nice people.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?

Mr. RUBY. I stayed with them about a year. Then my best friend’s brother, my best friend’s name is Mike Nemzin, his brother’s name is George Marcus, that is his name legally.

Mr. HUBERT. They have different names but the fact is they are brothers?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. That is why I wanted to mention that. He owned——

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “he” who do you mean?

Mr. RUBY. George Marcus; I am now speaking of.

Mr. HUBERT. The brother of your best friend?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was instrumental in my getting the other job for Worldwide Music because he knew one of the—he was in the dry cleaning business, George Marcus has today one plant in Marion, Ind. and one plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., and has a brother-in-law running each one. And we had been friends for about 25 or 30 years, and he approached me with the idea of going into business with him in another cleaning plant if we could locate a good one. You know, buy a going business, of course, and I was very much interested.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; Marcus I am speaking of.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your best friend was his brother?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were friendly with him for 25 years?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; yes. In fact, he originally helped me get started when I first came out of service. I had no money to speak of.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?

Mr. RUBY. Marcus, and he lent me $500, I think, to get started.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on and tell us what happened?

Mr. RUBY. And Marcus and I talked over the possibility of going into the cleaning business together, and he being so successful, I was very happy that he even, you know, came to me and was interested in my running the plant, because he is more or less a silent partner.

So, sure enough, we checked out a few plants and then we happened to hear of this plant in Detroit, Cobo Cleaners, that is the plant. It was originally owned by the mayor of Detroit. And we heard about this plant and we went to Detroit, checked that out and checked out the possibilities, and we decided it was a pretty good deal. And so we bought that as equal partners. And that was in 1961, October of 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay for it?

Mr. RUBY. We paid for it, for the real estate and the business, $120,000.

Mr. HUBERT. And you each put up half?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Of course, we only paid so much down, you know. We didn’t pay the full price, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is the business you are in now?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you run the operation?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he is more or less silent. He lives in Glenview, Ill., a suburb of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand it, he owns these other plants that you mentioned?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And runs them through——

Mr. RUBY. The brother-in-laws. But he gave the brother-in-laws 35 percent of each one.

Mr. HUBERT. I think for the record perhaps we had better state the names of those other companies and the cities and the names of the brothers-in-law.

Mr. RUBY. OK. The name of the plant that George Marcus and his brother-in-law owns in Marion, Ind., is called Modern Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and his brother-in-law’s name there is Harry Marks.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that his sister’s husband?

Mr. RUBY. Husband, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. RUBY. And the name of the plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., is called the American Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and the brother-in-law there who is married to George Marcus’ sister is Elwood Jacobs.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know those people, the two brothers-in-law?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, you know, being close to my best friend for so many years, I was always close to the family as a whole.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no interest in those plants?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have a 50-percent interest in the Cobo plant?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did we have some indication that there was a company or something, sort of & business enterprise called the Earl Ruby Co? Will you tell us about that?

Mr. RUBY. When I sold the Earl Products Co., I sold the whole Earl Products Co. and he was supposed to pay me—he gave me so much money down, about $20,000 down, I think—and he was supposed to pay me the balance out so much a year.

Well, after he paid so much, he paid me for about a year or so, he said he can’t pay me any more money, he wants to make a new deal on the balance of the money that he owed me. So we made a deal that he would only give me $10,000 more. He owed me about $30,000 or so. We settled for $10,000 in cash plus I would take over the camera manufacturing. We had a little camera we manufactured. He would give me the tools and dies of that business, and also the tools and dies to make a little nameplate that kids fasten on the back of their bicycles. So when I took that over, I had to have a company name to run it, and so I decided to call that Earl Ruby Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any associates in that company?

Mr. RUBY. No, no. And I since, last year I had to close that up. It was just not doing any——

Mr. HUBERT. That operation continued after you left Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. When I sold it to Oliff, you mean? Oh, yes; for awhile.

Mr. HUBERT. No, no; I mean the Earl Ruby Co?

Mr. RUBY. No. When I left Chicago, there was no Earl Ruby Co. It only became after he decided he couldn’t pay me the rest of the money, then I had to start all over again.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in Detroit at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I couldn’t use Earl Products because he owned that name. I sold him the name.

Mr. HUBERT. But the operation of the Earl Ruby Co. manufacturing the cameras and the bicycle plates?

Mr. RUBY. I moved it to Detroit.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you moved it to Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you operated then out of Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, but——

Mr. HUBERT. So you were operating at that time two businesses?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The cleaning and the——

Mr. RUBY. Yes. Well, the other business I don’t think in all the time I had it, I don’t think I did $10,000 worth of business in the 2 years that I tried to run it. It just fizzled out and now there is nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. It folded when?

Mr. RUBY. I folded it at the end of the year.

Mr. HUBERT. Which year?

Mr. RUBY. At the end of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had run it about 2 years?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, about 2 years, I would say, and there was just no more sales. I tried to dispose of it or sell it, but I couldn’t even get a buyer, so I still own the tools and dies but there are no sales.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are just put in a warehouse, the tools and dies?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hollebrandt?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. RUBY. He is the supervisor of our plant. Is that the one you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. I believe so. What is his first name?

Mr. RUBY. Abram.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he the supervisor of Cobo?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he become so?

Mr. RUBY. About a year ago, just about a year ago, a little over a year ago.

Mr. HUBERT. How did this relationship come about? Did you know him before?

Mr. RUBY. No. I had never heard of him before. When we came to Cobo Cleaners, we had a supervisor by the name of Charlie Comp, and then after my being there awhile, I could see that one of the reasons Cobo wanted to sell out was the supervisor. He just wasn’t running the plant efficiently. And so I talked to my partner about replacing him and we finally decided to replace him, and we started looking for a replacement. And I mentioned it to everyone I knew, and in the cleaning industry there is different types of cleaning processes, mostly concerned with the type of soap you use, and we were using, ours is what you call a solvent plant, and we were using—I can’t think of the name of the soap. Anyhow, a special soap. I just can’t think of the trade name.

And the salesman or distributor in our area for this soap is Vernon Brooks, and I talked to him about getting—asked him if he knew a good supervisor, and he said he would let me know. And then in a week or whatever time passed, he called me and says, “Yes, I have a good man in Rochester, New York.” And, “I think he might be interested.”

So I contacted him and we had him come to Detroit so we could talk to him and interview him, and then we wanted to see what type of a plant he was running there, so Marcus, my partner, and I flew to Rochester one day and Hollebrandt showed us through the plant he was running, and we liked him. You know, he is a pretty nice fellow. And he seemed to know his stuff. So we hired him. That is how we got to know him. Other than that, I had never seen or heard of him before.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time that you first contacted Hollebrandt and the time that he actually became the supervisor? What period of time elapsed?

Mr. RUBY. I would say a couple of months anyhow. It took a couple of months. Yes, it took a few months.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Oscar Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Oscar Robinson?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person who lives at South Haven, Mich., particularly at an address 58 Lakeshore Drive?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, I know those people.

Mr. HUBERT. In South Haven, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. I know their name is Ruby. I didn’t know his last name. My in-laws own the cottage next door to them, 56 Lakeshore Drive, and so I used to go up there on weekends, but I didn’t know his last name was Oscar.

Mr. HUBERT. No, I didn’t say his last name is Oscar. I think it is either Ruby or Robinson. What did you know his last name to be?

Mr. RUBY. Ruby, the same as mine.

Mr. HUBERT. But he is not related to you?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. And he had a cottage which is next door to——

Mr. RUBY. My in-laws.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife’s——

Mr. RUBY. Family.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Harry C. Futterman?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, that is my wife’s brother-in-law. He is married to my wife’s sister.

Mr. HUBERT. What does he do for a living?

Mr. RUBY. He worked for the post office until he retired a few years ago, and now he works for a brother-in-law of his who is in the lumber business.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. He lives at 7209 Northeast Prairie, in Lincolnwood, Ill.

Mr. HUBERT. Lincoln?

Mr. RUBY. Wood.

Mr. HUBERT. Lincolnwood?

Mr. RUBY. A suburb of Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Colley Sullivan?

Mr. RUBY. Colley Sullivan?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. RUBY. No, no, it doesn’t register at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Dominick or Dominic Scorta or Siorta?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Anesi Umberto?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think that is the one.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him.

Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I did business with—no, that is another name. I know a fellow by the name of Mario Anesi.

Mr. HUBERT. And who is he?

Mr. RUBY. He is the fellow that used to make all our tools and dies in Chicago.

Mr. HUBERT. Tools and dies for the Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I thought that is who you were talking about. Anesi Umberto, no, I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Mario Umberto?

Mr. RUBY. Maybe that is the same fellow. I know him by Mario Anesi.

Mr. HUBERT. A-n-e-s-i?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how you spell his name. I am not even sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen or had any contact with this gentleman in the last year or so?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was just here, he was just in Detroit for the tool convention or whatever they call them, and he called me just to say hello, because he has tools and dies of mine in his place yet, old things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was just in the last few weeks, I gather.

Mr. RUBY. Yes. That was about a month ago. That is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that contact with him, when was the next previous contact?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he makes the camera shutters, camera shutter parts for me, and I saw him in Chicago a little more than a year ago. I stopped in to discuss changing—it is probably a year-and-a-half ago—changing the die for one of the parts.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any telephone conversations with him in that interval, during that period?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What would it have been about?

Mr. RUBY. Only about tools and dies. In fact, I tried to sell him the tools and dies for the nameplate.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. RUBY. Right after I took it over from Mr. Oliff.

Mr. HUBERT. It would have been about a little over 2 years ago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and then I would have to talk to him once in awhile about ordering the parts, if I were in Chicago I would call him and tell him what I need or something like that. But I know him as Mario Anesi.

Mr. HUBERT. And you do know as far as your memory serves you, either a person called Anesi Umberto or a person called Mario Umberto?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone whose last name is Umberto, U-m-b-e-r-t-o?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone by the name of Kirk Bibul?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a person by the name of Elliott Schwartz?

Mr. RUBY. Elliott Schwartz, he is married to another sister of my wife.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. New York.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to contact him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I see him, he comes in for events, marriages, bar mitzvahs and all that stuff. In fact, I wanted to call him last night because I am so close.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a social relationship, social and family?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. No business relationship?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I was going to have him manufacture the nameplates for me, when I couldn’t sell them to Mario Anesi, he told me business was bad up in New York, so I sent the tools and dies there, but we never used them, never got any sales, so the tools and dies for the nameplates are just there not being used at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Edward A. Cobo was the owner of the Cobo Cleaners prior to the time you bought it out?

Mr. RUBY. The junior, I bought it from the junior, his mother and his sister. I think Cobo himself had passed away several years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was mayor.

Mr. RUBY. His brother, Al Cobo, was the mayor, but Al and Edward Cobo owned Cobo Cleaners. The mayor owns half of it.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you bought it, the mayor had died?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And his interest had passed to his family, I take it?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; to probably, I don’t know but I think it probably passed to his brother and then his brother passed away and then the interest went to the brother’s wife and son and daughter, and that is who we bought it from.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Buddy Heard?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with a company called the Anran Tool and Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Are you sure it is Anran and not Anson?

Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it is Anson.

Mr. RUBY. That is owned by Mario Anesi and his brother.

Mr. HUBERT. So that any contacts you would have had with that company was really what you were talking about a little while ago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. They made all the parts for us and tools and dies for, oh, 10 years or more.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know if you stated what Mario Anesi’s brother’s name was.

Mr. RUBY. One’s name is Burt, that is how I know him by, Burt, and he has another brother. I don’t even know his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Are they all in this company?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; now, Burt could possibly be Umberto, I don’t know, because Burt is an unusual name for Italian people.

Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that your contacts in the last 2 years say with the Anesi’s or the Anson Tool and Manufacturing Company have been as you have stated in regard to the dies and the manufacture of shutters and so on?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.? Have you had any contact with that company?

Mr. RUBY. Triangle? What do they make?

I once had a Triangle many years ago that made—I think it is Triangle—made a set of cutting dies for me. I don’t know if it is the same company.

Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located, do you know?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, I think. But I had very little—if I remember, it was one order. But there are so many Triangles. I even think many years ago I bought some cartons from a Triangle Carton Company, but you are saying manufacturing company. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. The Triangle Manufacturing Co. that I am thinking of is in Oshkosh, Wis.

Mr. RUBY. It don’t sound familiar at all. Does it say what they make—because in the years we were manufacturing we used to buy parts and things from all over the country. But it doesn’t seem to register with me at all, Oshkosh.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of having made a telephone call to that company on November 1?

Mr. RUBY. What year?

Mr. HUBERT. 1963.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, then I think I know who that is. I think, I am not sure now, I think they make, what do you call it, bearings. I think they make bearings, and the reason I called them, if it is the right company, I am not even sure of that, is that my brother Jack wanted to make, had seen this twistboard, it is a little board with a bearing underneath it, and you stand on it and you learn to twist that way, and he, knowing that I had been in manufacturing and knew all about manufacturing, asked me if I could find out where to get this type of bearing. It was a usual, simple, very inexpensive type. So I don’t know how I got their name. I think I called somebody. I learned of somebody that was selling them or making them around Detroit, and I called them.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean making those bearings?

Mr. RUBY. Making the whole twistboard, and I think they referred me to Triangle, and I called them, if that is the correct company, and had them send me a sample and a quotation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anything come of it?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack propose to do so far as you know?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he was going to, you know——

Mr. HUBERT. Manufacture it?

Mr. RUBY. Have somebody make it and distribute it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you?

Mr. RUBY. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that name, because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they send the sample?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do with it?

Mr. RUBY. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part, and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you have got to put it in a box and package it, you can’t come out, because you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You can’t work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about getting in it, so that was the end of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this business?

Mr. RUBY. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners. But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn’t see it, and it was a good thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit area and it was a flop, anyhow.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently this item wasn’t patented.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New York City?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that corporation? What do they do?

Mr. RUBY. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was your interest in those products?

Mr. RUBY. That is my brother-in-law.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your brother-in-law?

Mr. RUBY. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about. That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in-law on the wife’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a company, called the James Welch Co.?

Mr. RUBY. James Welch? No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an organization called the Ipsilanti Buffing Co.

Mr. RUBY. Never heard of it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that organization?

Mr. RUBY. No. Are they in Detroit?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. It doesn’t register at all.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Troy Plating Co.?

Mr. RUBY. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall that name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with an organization called the General Scientific Corp.?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21?

Mr. RUBY. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes, yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now.

In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn’t seem to find anyone in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling the Troy Co.

Mr. RUBY. I can’t think of any other reason.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta?

Mr. RUBY. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make some for me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Berger Products Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn’t strike a bell.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that?

Mr. RUBY. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them. But that doesn’t strike a bell.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with Mike Nemzin.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my partner.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall that conversation?

Mr. RUBY. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because George, his brother, told me he was very sick.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call him?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. Probably at his place of business.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at a place called Walled Lake, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. No. We have customers there, but I don’t know them personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time.

Mr. HUBERT. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they send in a garment and there is a hole in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Walled Lake near Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; very close.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do have customers that come from that far?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking Co. in Denver?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out of them. So I called them several times.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg?

Mr. RUBY. What is his first name?

Mr. HUBERT. Barney.

Mr. RUBY. It doesn’t register with me.

Mr. HUBERT. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield.

Mr. RUBY. Delderfield.

Mr. HUBERT. Delderfield?

Mr. RUBY. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. RUBY. He lives in California.

Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?

Mr. RUBY. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you have had occasion to call him?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that about and when was it approximately?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall, probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why I called him.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to—go ahead.

Mr. RUBY. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him once or twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.?

Mr. RUBY. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don’t remember calling him.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who lives in Seattle, Wash.?

Mr. RUBY. Sidney Jaffe?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Of any contact with a man by that name?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of Chasin?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the Jaffe family?

Mr. RUBY. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe.

Mr. HUBERT. That is a lady?

Mr. RUBY. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 20 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you some to know him?

Mr. RUBY. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his father’s name was?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sisters?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or Rosalyn Jaffe?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of the Jaffe girls?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.?

Mr. RUBY. Muncie? No; I don’t think I know anyone at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been there?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; never.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested in Jack Ruby’s twistboard enterprise?

Mr. RUBY. All I know is that he sent him a sample.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially interested?

Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to get you financially interested.

Mr. RUBY. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don’t you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I met him in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long ago?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your meeting him?

Mr. RUBY. Through Jack. Jack introduced us.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business with him?

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t have any business with him. No business was discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?

Mr. RUBY. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don’t know. At least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any financial dealings with him?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?

Mr. RUBY. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I did, and I’m sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven’t located the check as yet. I don’t remember whether I sent the check to Jack or Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]

Mr. HUBERT. Did he owe you any money at any time?

Mr. RUBY. Me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Ralph Paul?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.

Mr. RUBY. That went through my company, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come to be indebted?

Mr. RUBY. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?

Mr. RUBY. I think to organize the Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure, than one amount, that is.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that transaction in general.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I would have to see—I don’t recall when I sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul, that is to say to sue him?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.

Mr. RUBY. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don’t recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can’t think of the new name, because I was out of the picture then.

Mr. HUBERT. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.

Mr. RUBY. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to send it.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we approach it in another way.

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall the complete details on it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the organization of a club.

Mr. RUBY. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was some other club before.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you then how much he needed?

Mr. RUBY. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean $6,000?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a loan?

Mr. RUBY. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this——

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the note for the money that you sent down?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think something—I am not sure because it was handled more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the original sending of the money.

Mr. RUBY. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check.

Mr. HUBERT. To organize the company?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there was a loan made of some sort, you see.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what it really was.

Mr. RUBY. I am really not sure. I am really not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of money without investigating the possibility?

Mr. RUBY. Well, it was my brother.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever loaned him money before?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have got it back?

Mr. RUBY. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I loaned him money that I didn’t get back.

Mr. HUBERT. Since he was in Dallas, you mean?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never took any notes from him?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don’t recall all the details on that, either.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that he made from you?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How much would you say that he owes you now then?

Mr. RUBY. Altogether?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t mean including the money you may have expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date.

Mr. RUBY. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent him.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never got anything in return for it?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could not collect?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think——

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever hiring any lawyers in Dallas or in the Dallas area for that purpose?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you clarify for us in anyway at all what this entry means?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I explained it to my accountant, and he said that is how you write it off, as far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you simply gave him the facts?

Mr. RUBY. The facts.

Mr. HUBERT. And he is the one who drew up the return?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think his name is on the front of this. It would have been Mr. ——

Mr. RUBY. Let me see. Harold Kaminsky.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t one of your sisters married——

Mr. RUBY. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law.

Mr. HUBERT. Which sister is this?

Mr. RUBY. Eileen.

Mr. HUBERT. She married Harold Kaminsky?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He is an accountant, is he?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he handled this for you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You gave him these details?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack after 1960?

Mr. RUBY. After 1960?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. I don’t remember the exact figure.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur?

Mr. RUBY. It must have been just about 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking about?

Mr. RUBY. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know that you would have been able to take a loss for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for 1960.

Mr. RUBY. I say I don’t recall. I don’t recall the exact—I would have to check my records and see when I sent it down.

Mr. HUBERT. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby?

Mr. RUBY. We have a regular set of books.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners?

Mr. RUBY. No; even before that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have a personal set of books?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and statements.

Mr. HUBERT. You still have retained those?

Mr. RUBY. I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962?

Mr. RUBY. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited Cuba, Havana. I don’t know if it was in April, and I may have talked to him. But I don’t know, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You are acquainted with Jack’s visit to Havana?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know he went there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go there once or more than once?

Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, once.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that that was in 1959?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn’t have made any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don’t remember any, anyhow.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anybody in Cuba?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have?

Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I can’t think of anyone. I knew of the fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him?

Mr. RUBY. Jack told me about him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that in the early part of this year, specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him that you thought it was a telegram?

Mr. RUBY. There should be some record of it if I did. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone calls were properly deductible business expenses?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a telegram?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t see why. I don’t recall sending a telegram. I can’t think of why it would be in 1962. I can’t think of any reason for it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that someone else could have called and charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account?

Mr. RUBY. I doubt it. I just can’t imagine who in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit already?

Mr. RUBY. Yes. I can’t think of any reason.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any policy in your business about getting approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage that aspect?

Mr. RUBY. No; I mean I don’t watch it that close because we have so many. Wouldn’t we know, or isn’t there somebody where we sent it so it could refresh my memory? I don’t think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly Praskins?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago, would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything about that?

Mr. RUBY. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does this go back? It doesn’t register with me at all.

Mr. HUBERT. This would have been in May of 1963.

Mr. RUBY. The name doesn’t register at all.

Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used your phone and done that?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think they would. The only possibility, if my brother Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would ask me first, I think.

[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to continue using my camera as a premium.]

Mr. HUBERT. Did he visit you during the year 1963?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the year?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the spring?

Mr. RUBY. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it about a year ago?

Mr. RUBY. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the territory he stops in.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a breather for a minute.

(Brief recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has some questions to ask you, so let’s get back on the record with the statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning, and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be under oath throughout? Do you agree to that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to save some time. All right. Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn’t recognize the name of Dominic Scorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with anybody like that?

Mr. RUBY. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn’t recognize the name of a man named Kirk Bibul?

Mr. RUBY. That is right; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern University or in Evanston?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn’t sound familiar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are your children of college age?

Mr. RUBY. No; the oldest one is only 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or business phone?

Mr. RUBY. The only thing I can think of, I don’t know, is he a music teacher?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher?

Mr. RUBY. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern to send my children to him for piano lessons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this?

Mr. RUBY. It has got to be 3 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is while you lived in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the years 1962 and 1963?

Mr. RUBY. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few.

Mr. HUBERT. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your consent?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with you first, let’s put it that way?

Mr. RUBY. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that I can think of. That is about all.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25¢ or 30¢ calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call girl will be calling them any number of times during the month.

Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have during this period? I know it would vary, but an average?

Mr. RUBY. Probably 50.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the phones are in the office?

Mr. RUBY. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody could use.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a pay phone?

Mr. RUBY. We have a pay phone and a company phone.

Mr. HUBERT. What are the numbers of each? What is the pay phone number?

Mr. RUBY. The pay phone I don’t know. They took that out. I don’t know what that is. I never use it.

Mr. HUBERT. It is still there?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the number of the regular?

Mr. RUBY. 860-3400.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. RUBY. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the girls are. We have an extension phone in my office.

Mr. HUBERT. Are those all on the same line, the same number?

Mr. RUBY. 0400, 1, 2, and 3.

Mr. HUBERT. There are really three numbers?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is 863—I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don’t even have my own number.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those phones other than the public phone?

Mr. RUBY. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don’t suppose you have heard of them. We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when? Because we didn’t take over Hudson’s until December of 1962, so those numbers wouldn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about 1963?

Mr. RUBY. 1963, yes; we had this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those numbers?

Mr. RUBY. 863-0566.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would have access to those office phones as it were?

Mr. RUBY. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up and use it.

Mr. HUBERT. To make long distance phone calls?

Mr. RUBY. No. As far as long distance, I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked the long distance records in any way?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t check them too carefully because we make so many. My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the Benton Harbor plant.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t spot check it to see that——

Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t spot check it that closely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if we could get from Mr. Ruby, maybe if you would make a note of this, to provide us with a list of all of your office employees for the year 1963?

Mr. RUBY. You don’t know if this is a music teacher, do you? Probably my wife called.

Mr. HUBERT. We are speaking generally now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are speaking generally. First of all, I am not addressing myself to Mr. Bibul. Right now we are just addressing ourselves to the general problem who else might have used your phone. Do you think you could provide us——

Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure; that is no problem.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With a list of all of the office employees which you had?

Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is no problem.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can limit that to the year 1963.

Mr. RUBY. When you say provide a list, what do you want?

Mr. HUBERT. You want from April of 1962, don’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us the month of April of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. During the lunch period if you have a chance you might be able to write that down too.

Mr. RUBY. You are talking of all office employees April 1962. Well, we had some changes, several of them, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you can skip the remaining months and give us all of 1963.

Mr. RUBY. You just want their names. You don’t want any addresses or phone numbers or anything, just their names?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can give us addresses also we would appreciate it.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I can take it off the employee payroll card. I can give you the whole thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gives us names, addresses, and telephone numbers.

Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to ask my wife specifically about that call to North western University?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; because that may answer that one. What is that name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kirk Bibul.

Mr. RUBY. And that was in April 1962?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. RUBY. That would be before that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that was after.

Mr. RUBY. Before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the latter part of 1962 and the first part of 1963.

Mr. RUBY. Late 1962 and 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And early 1963. I believe also you indicated to Mr. Hubert that you didn’t recognize the name of the Ypsilanti Buffing Co. as anybody that you had dealt with.

Mr. HUBERT. Or maybe you did identify that one.

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. Now when was this about? Maybe this had to do with polishing or plating that same basket that we use in our dry cleaning operation. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Public Vending Corp?

Mr. RUBY. No; Public Vending, where are they located? Is that a long distance call, you say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a long distance call. When did you have this problem with the plating that required some work?

Mr. RUBY. Last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of last year would that have been?

Mr. RUBY. No, excuse me; yes, the end of last year, that is right, the end of last year, and that is when I think I called Troy Plating in Chicago, to see if they could do that, and I may have called. I used the yellow pages. I tried to get information from anyone as to who could do it, so I may have called Ypsilanti, and they may have said no and I crossed it out of my mind immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the General Scientific Corp. is not a corporation that you recognize?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; oh, yes. We bought lenses from them for the camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Berger Products?

Mr. RUBY. That don’t register with me. What city? That isn’t in Cleveland, is it, by chance, because I just called Berger Products I think Monday, but that wouldn’t be on there. That is this Monday. See, we buy different articles from different parts of the country, and it is hard to remember each one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these purchases in connection with your drycleaning business or some other business?

Mr. RUBY. Which, Troy? That was for the drycleaning. The lens, that was for my camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked him, Mr. Hubert, about what percentage of his time is spent with——

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some idea what percentage of your time is spent with the camera company and what percentage with the drycleaning business?

Mr. RUBY. The camera company is practically nil. In fact, it is out of business now. Over a 2-year period I only did about $10,000 gross sales, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Last year how much of your time was devoted to the camera company?

Mr. RUBY. When you say time, actually I took care of it more or less out of my home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any other businesses last year besides the camera company and the drycleaning business?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I had the nameplate business. That all comes under Earl Ruby Co., both of those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time did the nameplate business take?

Mr. RUBY. Very little. I don’t think I did a thousand dollars in the last 2 years on that, so you can imagine how much time that took up. And then that is dead now. In fact, the orders were so small that instead of manufacturing the plates myself, for which I have the tools and dies, I had somebody else do it for me that makes a similar item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of nameplates are they?

Mr. RUBY. A little plate 3 inches by 6 inches made out of metal. It is very similar to the design of your license plate, but we would put the children’s name on it, like John Jones, and they would fasten it to the back of their bicycle or their wagon or what have you. This was a box top deal item that we used, Armour’s Meats used it several years ago. They send in a box top from Armour’s franks with 25 cents, and you get the plate, things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you held the dies on it?

Mr. RUBY. I own them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You own the dies, but you were going to have somebody else manufacture them?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did, because it didn’t pay for me to set up to make 100 plates, because it just wasn’t worth it, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the manufacturing?

Mr. RUBY. Dixie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this your brother-in-law’s company?

Mr. RUBY. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dixie?

Mr. RUBY. Dixie, no; that is just some people I never even met, but I knew that they made a very similar plate, exactly the same size but slightly different in design, and that I could substitute this for mine. Actually, his was a better plate. It was made out of aluminum, which I did. And so that it wasn’t necessary for me to go through all the bother and expense to set up my operation to make the plate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co.?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Atlanta?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the Berger Products Co. is in Philadelphia.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, Berger Products. They made a plate, and the reason I called them, I have got to go back. When I sold my company, Earl Products, the fellow I sold it to couldn’t pay me all the money. So we made a new deal. He gave me some money and some of the operation back. That is how I got back the camera and the nameplate. Berger is also in the nameplate manufacturing business, and I wanted to sell him the nameplate business if I could. That is why I called him. Now I know. It is Philadelphia. That must be the Berger Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Mr. Hubert ask you if you knew anybody at the Mar-Din Co.?

Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t ask me that. Yes; I know those people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know them?

Mr. RUBY. They were one of our best accounts years ago when I first got into manufacturing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; the Earl Products Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did they purchase from you?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they purchased aluminum salt and pepper shaker sets. That was the main item. And then they also purchased some hammer and screwdriver sets, because at that time I was manufacturing those, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you deal with these people while your brother Jack was connected with Earl Products?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack know these people?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the Mar-Din Co. do?

Mr. RUBY. They are distributors of general merchandise, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they do any manufacturing that you know of?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t thing so, not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the nature of their distribution? Is it mail order or direct sale?

Mr. RUBY. Well, it is both. I think some mail order and they have salesmen, which would mean direct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with Jack, your brother Jack, about the Mar-Din Co. at anytime last year?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think when he was talking about—I am not sure now, but I think that he brought up their name when he was talking to me about going into the manufacture of the twistboard, and he thought they would be a very good outlet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what you suggested to him?

Mr. RUBY. No; I am not even sure of that. I can’t remember a conversation that took place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls from Jack in the month of November before the episode down in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked about the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many calls do you recall receiving from him?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, at least three or four, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all in connection with the twistboard?

Mr. RUBY. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to try to reflect on these calls and see if we can’t discuss them one by one. If you can, try to think about the first time he called you and the next time, and so forth, so that we can ascertain how your dealings with him progressed?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think the first conversation was probably to the effect that he had a good item, and he was going to send me one, and he told me something about it, it is a terrific item, and he wants to get into the manufacture of it, if he could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you one of them?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did. In fact he sent me, I think he sent me a half dozen. No; the first time he only sent me two, and then when I was down in Dallas, you know, for the trial and so forth, I brought back a half dozen for my kids, and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were interested then in the project?

Mr. RUBY. No; not for myself. He wanted me to see if I could locate people to make the parts at the least possible cost. He wanted to get into the manufacture in Dallas, and he mentioned to me, because I was trying to discourage him, because first of all he don’t know too much about manufacturing, and to set up for one item, which I didn’t think was such a tremendous item, I thought was a little bit ridiculous. And then he said that he would have the Goodwill organization assemble it for him. I don’t know if you are familiar with their complete operation, but they will assemble items for you at a very reasonable rate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Goodwill Industries?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that going to be done in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. In Dallas. So then he sent me the sample, and somehow I think this Triangle manufacturing came up. He may have mentioned it. I am not sure because I don’t remember every word of the conversation going back that far. I think I called Triangle, if that is their name. I am not even sure of that. He called me and he said, he might have said, “call them and see what you can do.” Anyhow, I contacted a couple of people in Detroit that I thought might know something about the twistboard, because he told me it was so tremendous in Dallas I figured it’s got to be known here in Detroit, although I had never even seen it. So I asked—I happened to call a fellow that is a salesman for toys and novelties and things of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. RUBY. I can’t even think. I know his first name is Henny, I can’t even think of his last name, and he said it is a flop, it is a dead item here. They tried it and it didn’t go over. So I think in one of the conversations I no doubt told Jack that, and anyhow I got a sample and I think it was of this part that we needed, the bearing part for this twistboard. Maybe I had better describe it. It is a little board, fiberboard about 12 inches square and it sets on a bearing like, and the bearing has another piece of press wood under it, and if you stand on it and you twist, you twist around. That is what the item was. And I couldn’t see it, especially it was selling for $3. I couldn’t see it. I just didn’t think anything of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Jack was enthusiastic about it?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; he was very enthused. He was going to get started.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to dissuade him at all from his enthusiasm?

Mr. RUBY. I think so, I think so. I really don’t know. As far as I know, I think I did. I told him it just doesn’t pay to get into it, because the one that was being marketed, if I recall he told me was selling for $3. So he said if he could sell his for $2. it would be tremendous. But I figured out the cost to him about 80 cents and if you sell the jobbers, you have got to give them 50 and 10 off. By the way, I have gone all through this with him but I just want to make it clear. So that means he is going to get 90 cents. In addition they want 2 percent, so you get 88 cents, approximately, and it costs you 80 cents, so you can’t be in business on 8 cents gross profit on an item that you are selling for 88 cents. It is just impossible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in which telephone conversation did you have this discussion?

Mr. RUBY. In one of them, not the first one, because I didn’t have all the information then. But after I got all the information, I called him or he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack calling you after the telephone call, a few days after the telephone call that was made in connection with Triangle? Do you remember that telephone call?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I think so, and that is when I told him I think they wanted 45 cents, and that is when I broke down the price structure, that it just didn’t seem feasible to consider manufacturing it if you had to sell it at $2 and I probably told him at that time, I checked into it and it was a flop in Detroit, so it was my opinion it wasn’t good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you in November about anything other than the twistboard?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I think the only thing we discussed other than—maybe how is the family, you know, how are your kids, which is the general conversation when two brothers talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you in connection with Eva’s illness?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he did mention that, that she was going to have an operation, she was going to have an operation, she had an operation, and he said, “I think you should call her or write her” or something. I don’t know, I may have even called her in the hospital, I really don’t remember, but he said she was feeling very bad, and for me to either write her, send her a card or call her, and I don’t know what I did. I did something but I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While Jack was living in Dallas, had you talked with him about other business ventures that he had, outside of his clubs?

Mr. RUBY. Well, a few years ago I talked to him about, he had a vitamin called Miniron, or something like that. In fact, I tried to discourage him about that, but I couldn’t, and in fact I think if I remember correctly, I sent him some money to try it, but it just didn’t go. It was a vitamin, a liquid vitamin of some kind that he thought was terrific. He was always taking diet pills and stuff like that. He was whatever the name for that is. Anyhow, he went for all kinds of diet remedies that came on the market. But it never seemed to help him much because he liked to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of when he was selling these diet pills or these vitamin pills?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, it is a few years back. It had to be—it was a liquid. I don’t think it was a pill. It was a bottle of some kind. In fact, he sent me some. It is several years back, I mean 4, 5 or 6 or 7. I don’t remember exactly. It was several years ago I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall your activities of the weekend of November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. RUBY. The 22d, Friday, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I was at work drycleaning when we heard the news on the radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That the President had been shot?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; first shot. Then we were waiting for additional news, and then finally it came through that he was dead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the drycleaning plant that day?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, I would say probably until 6 o’clock. That is my usual hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RUBY. Friday I always go home to dinner Friday night because it is traditional in our family. Jewish people, we have a big meal on Friday nights, so very, very seldom would I miss a Friday night dinner. I am quite sure I went home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any specific recollection of what you did Friday night?

Mr. RUBY. No; I was deeply upset, like most everybody else, I think, and I went home I know at 6 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of going home and being at home on Friday night?

Mr. RUBY. No; not specific, but I can’t see what else I would have done but go home to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the evening after you ate, Friday evening?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your practice to go to religious services on Friday?

Mr. RUBY. You wouldn’t go on Friday night, would you? No; I don’t go on Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you of the Jewish faith?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a particular temple or synagogue?

Mr. RUBY. More or less, yes, but I am not what you call Orthodox. The Orthodox, you know, just like other religions, they go every chance they get more or less. But I am not of the Orthodox.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the temple or synagogue that you belong to, when does it regularly hold services?

Mr. RUBY. It probably holds them—I don’t know. I know they have them Saturday. Saturday they always have services. I don’t think they have services there Friday night. They don’t have services on Friday night as far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your own religious practices when you were living in Chicago with Jack? Did your practices and feelings at that time differ from his?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say—can you make that a little more clear?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back to the time when you and Jack saw each other regularly when you were in Chicago, when Jack was in Chicago, were your religious practices the same as they are now? Were you any more religious then? Did you observe the holidays more closely?

Mr. RUBY. You want to compare Jack with myself?

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me ask you about your own practice.

Mr. RUBY. Well, you must understand, first, that it is very unusual for a Jewish boy not to be bar mitzvah.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking about particular ceremonies, but I am asking you about the regular habits of weekly attendance and so forth. Did they differ in the period before 1948 from the way they are now?

Mr. RUBY. Mine?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say I go more often since I got married, of course, because that is the Jewish tradition. When you get married, you have children, my kids go to Hebrew school, they went to parochial school, in fact my son graduated from the Hebrew school in Chicago, and so I would say I am more religious since we have children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were single in Chicago, how did your religious practices differ from Jack’s?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say he was a little more religious than I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he attend the synagogue or temple more often than you did?

Mr. RUBY. I would say more often than I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go regularly?

Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t say regularly, but he did go more often than I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times a year would he go other than on high holidays?

Mr. RUBY. This goes back so many years. You know he has been away more or less from me for 17 years now, so it is pretty hard to remember. And you know he is not the only one in the family. We still have six more children. I can’t even remember all their birthdays, remembering who went where on holidays.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t have a specific recollection, I don’t want to ask you the question, then. Let’s go back to the 22d, 23d, and the 24th.

Do you recall what you did on Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. RUBY. I think I went to work, the usual time, probably 7:30, and probably worked until 6 o’clock. Saturday is a busy day for us, and probably went home so far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the word “probably.” Are you indicating that you don’t really have any specific recollection of what you did that Saturday?

Mr. RUBY. I would say I probably went home, but I am not sure. I would have to check with my wife to make sure. I don’t think we went out, because we were in deep mourning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were, or you were not?

Mr. RUBY. I said we were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in deep mourning?

Mr. RUBY. So I don’t think we would have gone any place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean when you said you were in deep mourning?

Mr. RUBY. Well, we cried a lot in our family when this happened, I mean actual tears.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when this happened? Can you describe to us where and when and who was present? What was happening around you?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know exactly what our—but I know after this happened, probably on Friday night, my wife was definitely in tears at that time, and I was, too. We both greatly admired him. In fact, my wife on many occasions, even before the incident, she just loved him. There was nobody greater than President Kennedy. She made a statement many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you both registered Democrats?

Mr. RUBY. I was a Democrat all my life. In fact, I worked for the Democratic headquarters in Chicago many years ago. All our family has been Democrats all our lives, as far as I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did Sunday morning?

Mr. RUBY. On the 26th? Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The 24th.

Mr. RUBY. The 24th. We needed some electrical work done at the plant, and the only time to do it without interfering with production was to have it done on Sunday morning. So I had the electrician come in on Sunday, and I met him there, I think, about 10 o’clock probably, Sunday morning, at the plant to do this work, and I was there until—I just wanted to get them started, and I had one of my other employees there to watch things, you know, because we had an outside contractor, electrical contractor here to do the work, and there is a lot of clothing there and we wanted to be careful if they worked on the ceiling that they didn’t drop dirt on the clothing and so forth.

So I left. I was there maybe 2 hours, I don’t remember, anyhow I wasn’t in the car but 5 minutes or so driving one of the other employees—another employee who stopped in home—I was en route to drive him home. We had the radio tuned in. That is when I heard—no, before I left this Mike Nemzin, who is my best friend, and his brother is my partner, he was in the hospital with an operation——

Mr. GRIFFIN. The brother or Mike Nemzin?

Mr. RUBY. Mike Nemzin. He had some kind of surgery on his ribs or something, a very serious one, though, and so I thought I would call him to see how he was.

So I called him Sunday morning, it must have been about 12 o’clock, from the plant, I was at the plant, mind you, and as I am talking to him, he is in his bed in the hospital, he is watching television or radio and he says to me, “I can’t talk to you. Somebody just shot Oswald,” he says.

“I’ll talk to you some other time.” You know, because we were all excited, especially he was. So I hung up. And we didn’t have the radio on in the plant, but we left a few minutes thereafter. And in the car, as I said, about 5 minutes later, as I am in the car driving, just drove probably a mile from the plant, which wouldn’t take more than 5 minutes, it comes through on the radio that Oswald has been shot and the fellow that did the shooting is Jack Ruby, owner of the Carousel Night Club in Dallas, and I immediately knew it was my brother because that was the name of the club he owned.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say you were riding with someone at the time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?

Mr. RUBY. Jim Stewart.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work for you?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located now; do you know?

Mr. RUBY. Right now he is in the hospital, Receiving Hospital in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I was very upset, of course, and he said—I was driving—he said, “You had better pull over to the curb. You just turned white as a ghost.”

So I pulled over for a second or for a few minutes to recuperate my senses, so to speak. And then I said, “I had better take you home,” which I did. Then I went home. I drove home, and I called my sister in Chicago. I don’t even know which one I called. There is two of them. And they knew about it, of course, by that time, too. This was a half hour later and they probably heard it on the air. And they were all upset, of course. And I said, “Well, I had better come to Chicago.” So I called the airport and I flew to Chicago Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the cleaning plant after you finished talking with Mike Nemzin?

Mr. RUBY. Just a couple of minutes, just a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what other people were in the plant at that time?

Mr. RUBY. When I talked to Mike Nemzin?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. The electrician, I think, and his helper, he had a helper, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the electrician?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us his name?

Mr. RUBY. The trade name, I think, is Marco Electrical Contractors, and his first name is Marty. That is with a “c”. It is a little bit of an odd name, but I have it available there if it is necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His last name starts with a “c”?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that is where he got this Marco. And then, of course, as I told you I flew to Chicago, and my brother met me at the airport, if I am not mistaken, Hyman, and this was already before I could get reservations and get the plane and pack some clothes and all. It was late in the afternoon, and I think I arrived there, if I am not mistaken, probably 6 o’clock in Chicago, and it takes about an hour to get there.

Anyhow, no sooner I got in the house, you know, of course, the reporters were calling and it was a real—we tried not to talk to everyone, to anyone, if I recall.

When I got there, then my sister said that there were some men at the door and they said they were FBI men or special agents, and she thought they were reporters so she wouldn’t let them in, and she was hysterical now, to put it straight. And so then we got a call. We did answer the phone, of course, and we got a call from an agent, I can’t remember his name, but he said that they want to get in and talk to us and we wouldn’t let anybody in. You know, we just wouldn’t let anybody in. So he says, “Here is a number and call this number and my name is”—one of them was White, and I can’t think of the other one, one of the agents in Chicago. “Call this number and they will verify this that we are special agents.” So I said OK. So I went out to a pay station and called, and sure enough they said yes, they are agents, and so I walked back into the house the back way, and I saw them standing in the front, by the way. You know, there were about three or four of them. And I told my sister we had better let them in, they are special agents, which we did. There were four, I think. Four agents came in at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did they interview you and your brother and your sister?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; all of us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you being interviewed simultaneously by the Bureau?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; in different parts of the house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while you were being interviewed, one or more of your brothers and sisters were also being interviewed.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked to one sister, I think one agent talked to her in the kitchen or dining room or another part of the house, and one or two were with us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the Secret Service agents had talked to you, had you had a chance to talk with any of your family in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Had I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, at the time that the FBI talked to you, did you have an opportunity to talk with any of your family in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think I even had time. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall having talked to them?

Mr. RUBY. No; but I don’t think so at all. There was just not enough time. I called Chicago, if I recall, that is all I called. I don’t think I called Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Hyman or your sisters in Chicago had a chance to talk with Eva or Sam?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago and talked with Sam——

Mr. RUBY. With Hy, you mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With Hy, yes—did you discuss any contacts that Hyman had had with Jack over the weekend?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Chicago on the 24th?

Mr. RUBY. I just remained overnight and went back to Detroit, because my wife called me late at night, I don’t know what time it was, very late anyhow, and she said, “You had better come home. The reporters are just driving me crazy.” She was terribly upset. So the next morning I flew back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Chicago, did you make any plans with respect to obtaining an attorney for your brother?

Mr. RUBY. While I was there for that little while?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. No; but I think if I recall correctly Tom Howard was already in the picture. I heard his name. I didn’t talk to him, but as far as I know I heard his name on the air, that he was representing Jack, or something to that effect. At least I think so. But I don’t know if that was before I left for Detroit or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your meeting with your brothers and sisters in Chicago?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they were upset and they suggested I come there. So I came there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussion as to what you could do for Jack?

Mr. RUBY. We probably did, but there was nothing definite made, no definite arrangements. I know that I called, I think, Tom Howard. He was the first attorney, if you remember, to represent Jack, Monday morning after I arrived back home, because when I arrived there we had police at the house already, and the chief of police and my wife came down to meet me at the plane, and en route back my wife was telling me how the newspaper reporters were bothering her, they wouldn’t let her sleep. They were there until 2 o’clock in the morning and whatnot, you know. So I didn’t know what to do. So I asked the chief of police—his name is Sackett—a very nice man—what would he suggest. They all wanted information, a press conference or what. He said, “If I were you, the only way you are going to get rid of them is give them a press conference.” But I didn’t know if that was the correct thing to do, so I am quite sure I called Tom Howard and told him who I was and told him that all these news people wanted a press conference and what should I do. And I told him what the sheriff, the police chief, had suggested, and he says, “Well, there is no harm. You might as well do it and get it over with.”

So we called a press conference, I think it was, for 2 o’clock in the afternoon, something like that, and our rabbi came over, Rabbi Adler, and then I think right after that, I think some special agents called and came in or came over, and I think there were some there in the evening. Again, I think they came. And that ended that day. That was Monday. And then we started talking about attorneys and what to do and who to use.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say, “we started talking about it.” Who was this?

Mr. RUBY. I talked to the family, and I talked to—we talked back and forth so many times. I am talking about Chicago, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. And I think they were in touch with Dallas. I think Eva and Sam, they were talking back and forth, more or less continually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with getting Mr. Tonahill into the case?

Mr. RUBY. Indirectly; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you who you directly got into the case, if anybody?

Mr. RUBY. Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how Mr. Belli came to get into the case?

Mr. RUBY. Jack called. They let him use the phone down there. He talked to me or someone. Anyhow, we were talking about a lawyer then. We were all excited about getting the right lawyer. And he mentioned—I am trying to get it straight in my mind here. Oh, yes; he mentioned somebody wanted some information on his life or something, a life story or something, something to that effect, and he said to contact Mike Shore in California, in Los Angeles, who is a friend of ours, and he was a pretty well known publicity man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mike Shore before you called?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Well, actually, I know him since high school days in Chicago. He originally lived in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a classmate of yours in high school?

Mr. RUBY. No; but he went to the same school, if I remember, and I really didn’t get acquainted with him until after we got out of school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your acquaintance with Mike Shore after you got out of school?

Mr. RUBY. Just on a general hello and how are you basis, nothing real close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in what connection would you see him?

Mr. RUBY. Then he became——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question? In what connection would you see him after you got out of school?

Mr. RUBY. I used to be a lifeguard at a swimming pool close to where he lived and he used to come over there once in a great while, just a few blocks from his house. And he used to—he was a Good Humor salesman, and we would go out and see him where he parked his truck or something once in a great while. But that was because he was more friendly with other people than he was with me. In other words, I wasn’t one of his buddies. I would go along just for the ride.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do any business with him?

Mr. RUBY. I am coming to that. Then he became—he opened up the Mike Shore Advertising and he is the one that was behind Earl Muntz, you know, and the cars and the television. That is Michael Shore. And I did some business with him along in manufacturing. He got into the manufacturing of an item, a food seasoner. It was a large aluminum needle and you filled it with some different meat flavors and you injected it in the meat. Somebody talked him into it. He was doing very well, and he invested in it. Anyhow, it wasn’t made correctly so they couldn’t sell it, so he asked me since at that time I was in manufacturing, if I could correct the defect so they could at least sell them and market them, which I did. They shipped all these to me, I don’t know how many thousand, 5,000 or 10,000, and we reworked them and fixed them and sold them for him. Then not too long after that Muntz practically went bankrupt, so he closed the Chicago office and moved back to California. So, anyhow, I called Mike.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you another question. From what you have said, I take it that Mike Shore first had contacted your brother Jack or somebody in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack told you to call Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore contacted Jack or what gave Jack the idea of suggesting that you call Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Well, Jack knew that I knew Mike Shore, and he was, you know—he had been in advertising, was the only one we knew that could give us any advice as to what to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had someone approach him in connection with a life story or something like that?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said several people were trying to contact him through Howard and wanted a life story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first you heard about this, though, was when Jack called you and asked you to contact Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. Now, wait—I don’t know if he talked to me or he talked to one of the members of the family, because we had so many telephone calls from those first few days I can’t recall all of them. But, anyhow, the word came to me to call Mike Shore and ask his advice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall how long after Oswald was shot that this call of yours took place?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a day or two later, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you did call Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call him in California?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I called him in California.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did your conversation with Shore last?

Mr. RUBY. Several minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten or fifteen minutes?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know. Anyhow, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what that conversation was.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned that Jack had said that people were interested in a story on Jack and Jack had said to contact him, ask his advice. And so he says, “Gee, that is a coincidence,” he says, “because I’ve got somebody sitting right here in my office that would be the perfect man to do a story on Jack if one is going to be done.” And he says, “His name is Billy Woodfield.” His real name is William Woodfield. So he says, “I think you ought to come out here,” the conversation got to that, “so we can talk it over.”

So I flew out there a day or two later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that all there was to the conversation at that time?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; lawyers weren’t mentioned yet as far as I remember. I don’t think we mentioned the lawyer in the first conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you discussed with your family or with Tom Howard before you called Mike Shore——

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been your discussion about selling the life story with your family and with Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. Well, the question came up that we would need money for a good lawyer, and this was one of the solutions to raising money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you called Mike Shore, are you saying that you had discussed getting a lawyer other than Tom Howard, or when you use the term good lawyer are you talking about paying Howard?

Mr. RUBY. No: we were talking about a lawyer other than Howard now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had suggested that you should get a lawyer other than Howard or how did that idea arise?

Mr. RUBY. That was, I think, between our family, the family itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you discuss this with Howard before you called Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn’t mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life story?

Mr. RUBY. No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there—and I have a brother Sam in Dallas—do we need another lawyer. And then we learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer.

Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley Kaufman. He was my brother’s civil lawyer down there. And I asked him if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can’t recommend anyone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby.

Mr. RUBY. Excuse me. I can’t remember the exact sequence of all these conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember exactly, but it could have been even my own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was Jack’s original attitude, if you know, about Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. He wasn’t too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see, from what he told me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a few times to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this suggestion raised to Jack?

Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. You are asking me what his thoughts were. I don’t know. I can’t answer that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers——

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked, Howard—Howard and I discussed this, and he said he needs help, he wouldn’t mind another good lawyer. So we mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman, he told me Percy Foreman wants $25,000 as a retainer before he will even step into the case. So he says, “I know you don’t have that kind of money so that eliminates him.”

However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he only asked for $2,500.

Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman. Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got is he says, “Okay, I’ll handle the case. I will be right down to take over.”

He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade’s best friend, and so it just wouldn’t work out. He just couldn’t take it. Although he never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they down there found out that he was Henry Wade’s best friend, and so he probably for one reason or another, he couldn’t take the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any personal knowledge, however, that the friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn’t take the case?

Mr. HUBERT. With Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With Wade. You don’t know this?

Mr. RUBY. No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later on. Brunner said something to the effect—I don’t remember the exact words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don’t remember what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he didn’t get into the case?

Mr. RUBY. I am just trying to, if I can find the words or something close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said—I can’t recall that conversation at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Brunner mention——

Mr. RUBY. But I had a later conversation which I remember very clearly,——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. RUBY. This was after Jack received the sentence, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. Then Brunner told me that he now wants to help Jack. He feels that this would never have happened if he had handled the case originally, the verdict, you know, the death verdict, and that I should talk to the family and think over about him taking over the defense.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything about Henry Wade at that conversation?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said, “Even though I am very close,” words to the effect that “even though I am very close with Wade, don’t let that worry you,” or something to that effect. But I forget that first conversation, and I just don’t want to give you words——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he mentioned Wade in the first conversation that you recall?

Mr. RUBY. I am not sure and I don’t want to just—no, we contacted Percy Foreman. You want to know who else?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know. This is only that I learned from Howard. He said he contacted Percy Foreman. He contacted Fred Erisman, a retired judge. There is another one, another very good criminal lawyer, but I can’t even think of his last name to look it up. Is it important? I’ve got it here, but I just can’t remember the name.

Oh, yes; here is another one they talked to, I understand—Jim Martin. In fact, he was in the case more or less with Howard. Oh, that is Charlie Tessmer, the other lawyer they contacted. And he turned it down. Why, he never told us, but he turned it down. In the meantime, I had talked to Charlie Bellows from Chicago who is now acting as consultant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to contact Mr. Bellows?

Mr. RUBY. Well, one of my close friends in Chicago worked in his office, another lawyer, Rheingold, Milton Rheingold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, let me ask you here, did you know a lawyer in Chicago by the name of Weiner?

Mr. RUBY. A lawyer? I don’t think so, not a lawyer. I know a doctor, not a lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead now with your contact with Bellows.

Mr. RUBY. So we talked to Bellows. I talked to him, rather. And he said he was going to be rather busy, and he wasn’t sure he could take the case. As a matter of fact, that is who I wanted originally, because we knew him. His office represented me before Rheingold, was in his office with him, was my civil lawyer in Chicago, more or less, so you know at least we had a knowledge of who we were going to hire. And, in addition to that, he is a great criminal lawyer. He is head of the American Defense Lawyers, and all that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you contacted Bellows before your telephone call to Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am quite sure I did, and I asked him to give me an idea of the fee because, you know, expenses. Well, he said his fee would run anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, because he figured it would be a 2- or 3-month trial, plus expenses.

So I, of course, asked him what his expenses might be, and he says it shouldn’t be more than, if I recall, $100 or $200 a week for his own expenses, he said, because he doesn’t live highly and knowing me he is going to keep it down as low as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Bellows now?

Mr. RUBY. Bellows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, had you discussed a fee with Tom Howard?

Mr. RUBY. I did, but I don’t know when.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the fee that was finally arrived at with Tom Howard? What was his fee to be?

Mr. RUBY. His fee was originally, if he would stay in all the way, he told me from $10,000 to $15,000.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many lawyers did Howard suggest would be needed besides himself?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned the names, you know, like Bellows. In fact, he talked to Bellows, and we were in the process of probably working something out with Bellows, but he was too busy, and asked—then the question came up as to whether Bellows would be a risk in Dallas, since he is Jewish. And I talked to about a half dozen other lawyers, and I even talked to the best criminal lawyer in Detroit, Joe Louisell. I had a meeting with him. I asked his advice. He says, “Don’t bring a Jewish lawyer down there.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Howard’s view?

Mr. RUBY. Howard agreed with that. So that more or less took Bellows out of the picture. Now, in the meantime, I am back, going to California. So I go to California. They meet me at the airport. Is everything pretty well in sequence up until now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right, we will clarify. We will ask you some questions about it.

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; first the conversation, to get back to Tom Howard, the first one or two conversations, as I said, I talked to him Monday morning. Then I think I talked to him Monday night. I don’t remember, I talked to him any number of times. And in our discussions we talked money, costs. He mentioned “It is going to take a couple of months. You have got to figure anywhere total expenses close to $50,000.”

I never knew all these things existed that you have to hire a special investigator, and he wants $10,000. And you have got to have an appeals lawyer like Burleson. That is how he came in. You have got to pay him.

Anyhow, he broke it down, roughly, over the phone he says it may run $50,000. So that is why I started asking any lawyer I talked to, like Bellows, “How much are you going to charge? I have got to know all these things. Give me an idea what we have to raise.”

Then I had all of this information more or less in the back of my mind, how much have we got to raise to get Jack a decent defense counsel. Then I go out to California. They meet me at the airport, Mike Shore and Woodfield. The first thing they say, “Have you got a lawyer yet?” I says, “No.”

I am still talking to Bellows. He is not out yet, you see. He is not out of the picture. Howard is still supposedly trying to contact somebody else that is good. I haven’t been to Dallas yet. In the meantime, as I said, he had contacted Foreman and Charlie Tessmer and Fred Erisman. They were out. Fred Brunner, he didn’t want to get in at the beginning. Those were considered some of the top criminal lawyers in the State of Texas.

So, anyhow, I meet him, they meet me at the plane in Los Angeles, get in the car. The first thing they ask is “Have you got a lawyer?” And I tell them what is going on. I am not sure yet. So they start talking to me about Belli, Melvin Belli. I had never heard of him. And they couldn’t understand it. But I never had. And I told them that, that I had never heard of him, and so they start telling me how great he was, you know, and all that stuff.

And they said, “By coincidence he is in town. He is in L.A.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you arrived did Shore and Woodfield—how long before you arrived did they know you were coming? In other words, how many days elapsed between your conversation with Shore and your airplane trip out there?

Mr. RUBY. Gee, only a day or so, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore mentioned Belli to you on the telephone in that first conversation?

Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I am not sure—I think so, but I am not sure, because I think in our conversation in the car that we had makes me think they mentioned it before now, because the conversation went like this: I must have mentioned before I haven’t heard of Belli. He says, “I know I haven’t mentioned Belli and I don’t want to push him too much,” but then they started to tell me how good he is, so we must have talked about him on the phone. My remark was, “But Mike, I never heard of him.”

So, anyhow, they said, the conversation got around that he is in town, and, “Would you care to see him?”

I says, “Well, I’ve got nothing to lose.”

In the meantime, they are telling me how great he is, of course.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you under the impression that they had asked Belli to come to Los Angeles?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was a coincidence? Is there anything factual that happened that might suggest to you that——

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that they probably did. I shouldn’t say did, probably could have. I don’t want to make the statement that they did, because Woodfield later told me that Belli promised him that he would write Belli’s version of the trial or whatever you call it, for making the contact to represent my brother, words to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield said this?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you heard Woodfield say it or this is something that somebody else told you Woodfield said?

Mr. RUBY. No; I heard Woodfield say that.

Mr. HUBERT. Woodfield told that to you?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he tell you that?

Mr. RUBY. That was later on when he learned—this was weeks later when he learned he wasn’t going to do the story. Somebody else—Belli brought in a fellow by the name of Al Moscow to do the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of your brother?

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of Belli?

Mr. RUBY. Belli—Belli’s book on the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this before——

Mr. RUBY. Wait, we have got to clarify something else. We are getting ahead of ourselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just pinpoint time here. Was your conversation with Woodfield about Woodfield not being able to write the Belli story, did that conversation occur before, during, or after the trial of your brother?

Mr. RUBY. During, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate by your tone of voice and your words that you are not certain as to when this took place. Could you try to think of what the surrounding circumstances were of this conversation and other things to pinpoint the time?

Mr. RUBY. It wasn’t after, I know. Whether or not it was before, it could have been just before, because I don’t remember when Al Moscow came down the first time.

Oh, well, we can know exactly. It was published all over the country that Belli had signed a contract to do a story on Jack Ruby and the trial and all that stuff, and it was all over the country, with Al Moscow to do the writing. So we can pinpoint that. I don’t remember the date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I took you off the track. Get back on your track.

Mr. RUBY. Where was I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that we were skipping ahead, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the last thing you were talking about before we diverted into these other aspects was that you said you had nothing to lose.

Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right, so that evening we went to see Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Belli?

Mr. RUBY. In a home—a used home he had recently purchased in L.A.

Mr. HUBERT. Was an appointment made by them to see him?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; oh, yes. I think it was 7 o’clock, if I am not mistaken, that evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they call Belli? Where was Belli when they called him to make the appointment.

Mr. RUBY. In L.A. from what they told me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but do you know whether he was at his house or in an office or in a hotel or in a cocktail lounge or where he might have been?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when they called to make the appointment?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember that, either.

Mr. HUBERT. So we are at the point that you do go to see Belli.

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think this is a good breaking point for lunch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as we resume this deposition that I presume you understand that the oath you took this morning with Mr. Hubert and all the formalities which you went through still pertain to this hearing.

You are still under oath and we will continue in the same fashion that we did before.

If there are any questions about it why you are free to say anything.

We were talking, it seems to me, that we got you to the point where you had just met Mr. Belli.

Mr. RUBY. Belli, that is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I wanted to confine your attention from here on in to certain narrow aspects of your dealings in Los Angeles, and that is your efforts to find financing for Jack’s trial and what the actual financing of the trial is.

Can you tell us, first of all, whether prior to seeing Belli, that day that you were in Los Angeles, you talked to Mr. Shore and Mr. Woodfield at all about the financing of the trial?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I told them we had to raise money, and I told them Howard gave me a figure of anywhere from $25,000 to $50,000, and I asked them about how much they thought they could obtain from a story, and they said they couldn’t promise 50 but 30, 35, I think that was the figure that Woodfield used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be the gross figure or would that be what your brother would have ultimately had available from the entire sum for his defense?

Mr. RUBY. That was the figure, the net figure my brother would have left over after they took their commissions and percentage, and the agent’s fee and all of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to share in the proceeds from the sale, beside Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Woodfield, William Woodfield. Larry Shiller, the agent, and then they in turn said they would pay commissions to sales people.

I don’t know who those were, of course.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this first day in Los Angeles——

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to meeting Belli and your talk with them, did you discuss how long the article or biography would be and where it would be published and other details such as that?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; not the first day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the meeting at Mr. Belli’s house, did you discuss the biography of your brother?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What discussion took place there?

Mr. RUBY. Just the general discussion that Woodfield would do the writing of it. That is about all. And a figure did come up of how much could be raised through the story, through the selling of the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the speculation at that time?

Mr. RUBY. That is what I said, you know, the same figure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your meeting at Mr. Belli’s home last?

Mr. RUBY. I would say at least an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of the time at Mr. Belli’s house was spent discussing the sale of the biography or the life story?

Mr. RUBY. Probably 10 minutes altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you finished——

Mr. RUBY. Excuse me, would you want to know who else was present there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I would.

Mr. RUBY. Sam Brody, one of his associates in L.A., another attorney, who was in the case for a while but if you will recall he stepped out, and Woodfield’s wife, yes, Woodfield’s wife, I don’t remember her name——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mike Shore there?

Mr. RUBY. No: I don’t think so. No; I am quite sure he wasn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When that meeting ended there, had there been an agreement——

Mr. RUBY. Excuse me a minute.

I am trying to think if Mike Shore was there. I don’t place him there. I am not sure he was there. I can’t say yes or no to that question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He might have been there but you are not sure, is that your answer, or is your original answer that he wasn’t there still your best impression.

Mr. RUBY. If my recollection is correct, I think he just met Belli and then left. He had an appointment or something but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conclusion of your talk at that point as to whether Belli would represent Jack.

Mr. RUBY. It wasn’t definite yet. We talked about lawyers and he mentioned what he thinks we ought to do, and psychiatrists we might need—and different things that—he mentioned he would bring in Tonahill. He worked with Tonahill before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time Tonahill’s name was mentioned?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain in Los Angeles that night?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I was there that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there the next day?

Mr. RUBY. I think I left the next—about noon of the next day if I am not mistaken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Los Angeles what arrangements had been made with respect to the autobiography or the life story of Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Nothing really definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Woodfield ultimately write the story that you are talking about?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And——

Mr. RUBY. He came down to Dallas later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that published, that story? Just tell us generally.

Mr. RUBY. Well, they offered it for sale to foreign countries, publications in foreign countries, and also here through the newspapers, through a sales organization that handles that, I think, out of New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that life story serialized in a number of newspapers throughout the country?

Mr. RUBY. When you say serialized, I don’t understand what you mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was published over a period of days.

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it appear in any national magazines?

Mr. RUBY. No; not in the United States. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some original discussion with Woodfield that it would appear, that he would try to sell it to a national magazine?

Mr. RUBY. Well, our agreement was that he would sell it—yes, that if he could sell it to a national magazine that he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussions with him about selling it to the Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that discussion take place?

Mr. RUBY. Not until later; probably down in Dallas when we met in Dallas later on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much did the Ruby defense ultimately realize from that newspaper article?

Mr. RUBY. The net?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. A little over $30,000.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people get—did the Ruby defense also get contributions from people?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; but very little, very little.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us approximately what the total of the contributions were?

Mr. RUBY. Contributions—are you speaking right up to today now or until the trial?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not until the exact day. But do you have some figure as to what it was up to today? Roughly, what it is? I don’t ask you to be accurate to the penny.

Mr. RUBY. Well now, you see there are two funds, the story fund and a separate fund that a defense committee was trying to raise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the story fund comprises the $30,000.

Mr. RUBY. Separate; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in that fund besides the $30,000, or did anything else go into it?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I put in whatever donations my brother received in the jail I deposited. It was only—I don’t think it was $500 from there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other monies were given for the defense, though, were they not?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go into the defense committee fund? Did these other monies go into the defense committee fund?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they were used for paying the bills, if that is what you mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is, you say there are two funds, one fund is what you call the newspaper fund——

Mr. RUBY. Well, you see, that—the newspaper—was more or less Jack Ruby’s own fund. He authorized to write the story, and that was more or less his own fund.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBY. But this is a separate committee that was set up in Chicago, and they got several hundred dollars but we spent—well, on one ad we spent $200 for the ad and we got $205 back—to give you an idea. We kept using the money hoping to get more money in but it didn’t work out too well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us who the members of that defense committee are?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. There is Michael Levin, a lawyer in Chicago, my brother Hyman Ruby, Rubenstein, and Barney Ross, Marty Eritt.

Then there is another one or two in there that I am not too familiar with. But they have got stationery. I don’t have it with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts did they make to obtain funds?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they wrote some letters and they did advertising, as I told you. However, quite a few of the—quite a few—most of the newspapers wouldn’t take the ad. The Chicago papers wouldn’t take it. The Tribune, and the Sun-Times in Chicago wouldn’t take an ad for an appeal for funds for Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever given any reasons?

Mr. RUBY. No; the answers were it is not their policy, and there was another reason, I can’t remember the exact words. I don’t recall. But Mike Levin did most of that, you know—the lawyer—he did most of the calling and he told me, but I don’t remember the exact words and I would rather not say—you know, if I am not sure of the exact words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to say if you didn’t hear it.

Mr. RUBY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep the records for that defense committee fund?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; most—yes; I would say yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those records here with you today?

Mr. RUBY. No; I gave them to an agent, though. I give them to an agent some time ago. I gave him a list of all the monies that came in, and I think I even gave him a list of who I paid it out to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of how much money came in altogether in the defense committee fund?

Mr. RUBY. Now you are not talking about the story—right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. RUBY. From the defense committee fund between $1,500 and $2,000, altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the expenses of the fund or is this—excuse me—is this $1,500 or $2,000—is that a net figure or a gross figure?

Mr. RUBY. That is a gross.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After expenses, what was ultimately left for the application to the defense?

Mr. RUBY. I can’t give you an exact figure because I just can’t recall all of the expenses we had, because I just paid a bill last week, and I just don’t have it, but I would say we spent probably close to a thousand dollars, because one ad alone was close to $300, and the letter was another $300—is $600 already that I can think of. There were other, smaller expenses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the total expenses were that have been for the defense of your brother so far?

Mr. RUBY. In the low thirties. Of course, you must understand we are continually spending money, so I don’t have it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been given an estimate recently as to what the total expenses of the defense of your brother is going to be?

Mr. RUBY. An estimate?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. You mean if it goes to the Supreme Court and all that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; have you been given any estimate as to what the total expenses might be.

Mr. RUBY. No; I would say no. Just said it would run into a lot of money but no figure was ever actually quoted, except by Belli.

You see, he really didn’t, either. He just—I am trying to think what his statement was, now. No; he didn’t either, because at that time we weren’t talking about Supreme Court, we were only talking about—you know—the first trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his——

Mr. RUBY. He mentioned between $75,000 and $100,000.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a total cost.

Mr. RUBY. Of the first trial. And that is now his fee and everything, when you are talking expenses. I am talking everything they wanted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a fee did he quote to you at that time?

Mr. RUBY. He was talking about $50,000, if I recall correctly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he quote it to you personally or is this a figure you have learned from somebody else?

Mr. RUBY. No; he quoted it to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how much——

Mr. RUBY. In other words, it wasn’t a definite figure. He said it could be around, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have the costs of the investigation for the defense been paid to date?

Mr. RUBY. What do you mean by investigations?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the defense hire investigators?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have these investigators been paid for their work?

Mr. RUBY. Not completely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know——

Mr. RUBY. Well, there is a difference of opinion so——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how much has been paid and how much is claimed as to the total bill?

Mr. RUBY. Well, the original investigator that we had, I think, we paid him about $5,000 already, plus some expenses of a thousand dollars or so; I don’t remember the exact figures, and he claims we owe him $1,500.

Mr. GRIFFIN. More?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; and there is a little dispute about that.

Now, we have got a new investigator, I don’t know his name there. My sister hired him down there and she has given him several hundred dollars, I don’t know how much. I don’t know how much she gave him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Howard get any money?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much was he paid?

Mr. RUBY. I think we paid him, I am not sure of this figure though, $3,500.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the remaining funds that have been paid, I take it, have been paid to Mr. Belli?

Mr. RUBY. Belli got, I think, $11,000, if I am not mistaken. Then we paid the doctors, I don’t know, $5,000 or $6,000, you know, the psychiatrists that came down, and some of my expenses came out, just my flight expenses and telephone calls, and who else now?

We gave Burleson some money, he has got, I think, about a thousand dollars that we gave him since the trial. He was supposed to get paid from Belli before. That is the reason we didn’t pay him. However, he claimed Belli never gave him anything. And we paid, like George Senator, the witness, our No. 1 witness, we had to give him money to live on because he was so, what shall I say the word for that, well, he lost his job and he was so upset he couldn’t, you know, he just couldn’t work.

And then we had to pay—he went home and I had to send him airplane fare to come back, you know, and there is——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Larry Crafard, did you pay him any money?

Mr. RUBY. Larry Crafard, I think we just gave him a few dollars, $5 maybe because he was broke when he was living on the road, he didn’t have a dime, so I think I gave him some money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Larry incidentally contact you any time while you were in Detroit?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; I wish he would have, because he hitchhiked all the way down there, and I was driving at the same time, but he didn’t know I lived there, and we——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he notified to come to the trial?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If I remember correctly he came on his own. He just thought that when all this came out about, you know, Jack getting him to take that picture of Earl Warren, he had the camera or something, I forgot the full details myself, but he is the one who took the picture, right, if I am not mistaken, and he just thought he should come down to help Jack as much as he possibly could.

Could I go a little further?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really want to pry into this unless this is something you care to reveal.

Mr. RUBY. The most important thing is coming up now, I mean one of the most important things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I do want to reflect this—that I don’t want to push you into saying things, talking about subjects that you would rather not talk about, and I realize that this in one of them. Now, if you do want to say something about it why, of course, we would be happy to hear anything you want to say.

Mr. RUBY. Well, I returned home, I went from L.A. to Dallas, I talked to Jack, I talked to Howard. We hadn’t hired Belli yet. He was going to go down and see Jack, and talk to him before he decided to come in, you know, and take over the case.

I went back to Detroit and in a couple of days I get another call, I get a call, from Woodfield. He is very upset. He just heard some news that he thinks I must know. However, it is so confidential that he can’t even tell it to me over the phone. And I talk to Mike Shore and between us—they couldn’t tell me on the phone, I had better go back to California.

So, I go out there again. The story he tells me is that, in the meantime he is trying to make contacts, this is about a week later. He is trying to make contact to sell the story to the different publications, to the Saturday Evening Post, you know, and other publications, and somebody from the Saturday Evening Post called him, I think—now this is what he told me—and said that Tom Howard was up to the Saturday Evening Post office in Dallas offering for sale a picture of President Kennedy with a piece of his head shot off, and so I immediately, or as soon as I could, when I left them, I called my sister Eva in Dallas and I said, “Get a hold of the agent that has been talking—that has been taking—your story there and tell them about this so they can check into it.”

And then I went home, I flew back to Detroit.

By the time I got to Detroit they had tried to contact me to get some more information on the story. I mentioned this to Tom Howard and he denied it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his denial a flat denial?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; you know, complete, and you know. However, I think it was the fellow at the Saturday Evening Post that said—now I have given all this to the special agents or, I think, the Treasury Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. The Saturday Evening Post man said, “Well, let them come in front of me in my office and deny it.”

But, of course, we never brought it to a head. But, anyhow, I don’t know what happened. They never told me, of course, as you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of the Saturday Evening Post man in Dallas that Howard allegedly contacted.

Mr. RUBY. No; I did originally but I think I gave it to the agents.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk personally to this man from the Saturday Evening Post who claims he talked to Howard?

Mr. RUBY. No; Woodfield.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody—you just reported that somebody said—“Let Howard come before me and deny it.”

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it this was the Saturday Evening Post man who allegedly made that statement?

Mr. RUBY. Let me look in my book. Perhaps I have it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is where did you get—who told you—that the Saturday Evening Post man said that?

Mr. RUBY. Woodfield.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield?

Mr. RUBY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So everything you know about this transaction between Howard and the Saturday Evening Post comes either from Woodfield or from Howard’s denial?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; right. I don’t have it. I may have it somewhere else in another book but I don’t have it here.

By the way, if you are asking about the finances, we still have bills of—altogether from what my sister tells me—of close to $10,000 that are unpaid now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any money left in either of the funds at this point?

Mr. RUBY. No; I have been putting it off.

I mean, Burleson insists he wants some money so I have been sending him out of my personal account.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your brother shot Oswald did you see him?

Mr. RUBY. I think it was about at least a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well——

Mr. RUBY. I am not sure. Because I made so many trips there. I was down there about seven or eight times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before you went to Los Angeles to see Mike Shore?

Mr. RUBY. No; I think I made it on the way back. I went to Los Angeles first, the first trip, and then on the way back I went to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with Jack on this first visit?

Mr. RUBY. Well, they only let you talk about 20 minutes or a half hour at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the last time you have seen him?

Mr. RUBY. The last time I saw him was—I was there at the verdict, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since the verdict?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, oh, yes; I stayed there for at least several days, anyhow, and I saw him every day at least once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since then?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; since I came back, since that trip, I haven’t been back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you notice any change in your brother’s mental and physical condition between the first time that you saw him in Dallas and the last time that you saw him in Dallas?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Physically he lost about 30 pounds, and you know, his face was drawn and his eyes sunken, and in addition to that he was despondent, of course, and you couldn’t—he would have to repeat questions or ask questions from him more than once to get a reply. It just didn’t seem to register all the time.

Even Belli mentioned that he couldn’t get across to Jack all the time, and Burleson mentioned to me several times that Jack is off his rocker. This was, you know——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after the verdict or before?

Mr. RUBY. No; before. He says, “Your brother is off his rocker. He has got himself involved with all the Jews all over the world and he doesn’t know what he is talking about,” but my brother did know what he was talking about. It was Burleson who didn’t understand. Because in order to understand—it is a Jewish problem—and most Jews would understand it.

Burleson, not being familiar with this, it just went over his head. I didn’t even think of it then but he kept telling me, “Your brother has got himself all mixed up with all the Jews all over the world and he is off his rocker.” That was the statement he made several times to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to explore this with you at some length if you don’t mind.

Mr. RUBY. That is why I brought this with me. I have all of this in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to ask you some questions first and then we will get into the papers that you have brought. You say there was a disagreement, that you disagreed with Burleson’s appraisal of your brother’s involvement with the Jewish question.

Mr. RUBY. He couldn’t explain it. So, really, I didn’t understand it myself. I didn’t know what he was talking about at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You subsequently did come to learn what he was talking about, I take it?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; it wasn’t until somebody brought it to my attention, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was brought to your attention—what particular facts?

Mr. RUBY. Well, the fact it seemed that Jack in digging down into his past, he had an obsession about the Jewish people, and he always went out of his way to show people that Jews are not bad people, you know, because you know they have been persecuted over the years, and that is one of the reasons he brought the policemen at the station sandwiches and went out of his way to bring them cheesecakes and he was in debt to me for thousands of dollars, yet he never sent me any money but he always had money to give more or less or lend to these other people, almost all non-Jews to show them that a Jew would help them out.

A policeman became a father and was short on money, he would lend him a couple of hundred, never got it back, never got anything back.

Another friend he ran into needed a car to get a job—lent him a few hundred.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know—can you give us the names of some of these people?

Mr. RUBY. No; but my sister has them down there. I don’t have it. But I know of these instances, and he read all these books on the Jewish problem, the persecution of the Jews, going all the way back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. RUBY. I know from my sister. He lived with my sister and she told me, and he told me—both.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Eva?

Mr. RUBY. Eva; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack has told you that he read books on the Jewish problems?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; he even went to lectures on it, the synagogue, they had movies of the killings of the Jews in Germany. He went to all of these, things of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if Mr. Hubert has covered this or not, but do you recall an episode or a period back before World War II when Jack showed some concern about the Jewish problem, about the treatment of the Jews?

Mr. RUBY. Before World War II?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBY. You mean—well, he was in Chicago in the early thirties, they had the Nazi Bund meetings and Jack was always one to go and see if he could help break them up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go on any of these groups?

Mr. RUBY. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well——

Mr. RUBY. He was about 4 years older than I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Over what period of time was Jack involved in trying to break up these Bund meetings?

Mr. RUBY. In the early thirties there, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other people who participated with him in those?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group of people or would Jack go alone?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was a group. But I don’t know the other names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any sort of organized group? Was there an organization that he belonged to?

Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think it was an organization. It just was several Jewish fellows and I don’t think they had an organization of any kind. Just when they learned that meetings were taking place, they would go there and try to break them up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack ever arrested in connection with any of those?

Mr. RUBY. Not as far as I know, because he has no arrest along those lines at all.

In fact, the only violation he has, from what I could gather, was being open after hours, and carrying concealed weapons which, from what I understand, they don’t need a permit in Dallas, you know, when he carried large sums of money.

Other than that—you must understand I was away from him, practically from the time he went to Dallas until the incident. I only saw him for short periods of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Dave Miller gang?

Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the Dave Miller gang?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I read about them in the paper. I was just a school kid then, but that was a gang that hung around Dave Miller’s fight gymnasium, that is all I can remember. But I know something like that existed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they get newspaper publicity?

Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anything to do with those people?

Mr. RUBY. He used to hang around Dave Miller’s gym but he was Barney Ross’ follower like, and I think Barney Ross trained there and so he was very close with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, this group that was referred to as the Dave Miller gang.

Mr. RUBY. Dave Miller was a referee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dave Miller was a referee?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; Davy Miller was a referee in Chicago for many years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he ran a gymnasium?

Mr. RUBY. Yes; to train the fighters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Dave Miller have a following of some sort?

Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say it was—there was a restaurant downstairs and it was a hangout. He owned the restaurant and the gym, and he was a referee so the fighters hung around there and other people came around to see the fighters, so it was a general hangout for people of that type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Dave Miller gang have anything to do with these efforts to break up the Bund meetings?

Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I don’t have any concrete evidence. I think they did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go ahead and tell us—let me ask you this, rather. You say that your awareness of your brother’s, what we’ll call involvement with his Jewish background or his position in society as a person of Jewish background, was brought to your attention by someone else. Who brought this to your attention?

Mr. RUBY. No; what was brought to my attention, I knew he was also interested in the Jewish problem, but I didn’t think it entered into this picture because I didn’t—this article here that was drawn up by Sol Dann, who through his daughter, a friend of the family, became interested in it because he could see what was in the background, and he studied all the things and he got some information from me and he talked to my brother, my sister and the psychiatrists on the case, and the more he talked to them the more he could see that this was an obsession with my brother, who probably didn’t realize it was as great an obsession as it actually was, and that is probably one of the reasons why Belli mentioned to me on a few occasions, “I can’t get across to your brother. I don’t have a client.”

He says, “I have a patient, not a client.”

He mentioned that to me several times. He says, “I can’t get through to your brother.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any specific indications?

Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t go any further either, because I thought Belli was such a great lawyer. I say—I don’t even remember what I said, I just—then he had psychiatrists, when the psychiatrist would interview my brother he would talk to him afterward, and if ever I asked, I mean, what they say, he says, “Well, they claim he is sick, he has got this”—I don’t know the medical terms he used, you know, and so on and so forth, and, “We have a good case, he is definitely sick,” and all that, but the real problem. I mean the obsession itself, I don’t think that even registered with Belli or the other psychiatrists, because as far as I know—because it was never mentioned at the trial, and the psychiatrists never mentioned it to us, and we didn’t think to tell it to them, because we didn’t know if it had any importance or not, but we find now in talking to the psychiatrists that it is of great importance and it was probably one of the factors in his thinking the way he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Mr. Burleson—did he tell you during this period, when you didn’t understand what he was talking about—what did he tell you about Jack?

Mr. RUBY. Well, he was aloof from us. That was the big problem with that trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say, Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to, I am not asking you to comment on the way Mr. Burleson conducted himself, but I am trying to find out what it was he said to you about Jack which you didn’t comprehend at the time.

Mr. RUBY. He said he is getting himself involved with all the Jews all over the world on an international scale—“He is off his rocker”—that was one of his——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he specify any of the things Jack was talking about?

Mr. RUBY. No; he used to say, “Jews all over the world, on an international scale,” that was his expression several times and then, of course, he stated, “He is off his rocker.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Burleson tell you this sort of thing before the trial, or only after the trial?

Mr. RUBY. Before and during, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right.

Mr. RUBY. And not so much after, because after we were disgusted, I will tell you that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the trial did Mr. Burleson begin to call these problems about involvement with Jews.

Mr. RUBY. Right after he got involved. Because he lived in Dallas, and he talked to my brother more so than anyone else because he lives there and right after he got into the case, not a few days later, he says, you know, made the statement again, “That your brother has got himself involved with all the Jews on an international scale and he is off his rocker, he doesn’t know what he is talking about.”

And to be truthful to you I didn’t understand his statement. It didn’t register with me because they kept saying, Belli said, “Your brother is sick. I have got a patient on my hands, you know. I am trying to take care of your brother, and I can’t get across to him.”

And my brother, I know, he had many fights because of the Jewish question, of being called, you know, names, referring to his Jewish parents and all that stuff, and, of course, I have been through it myself but he more so, and he fought more about it.

He was always quick tempered and just couldn’t take it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other fights did he get involved in because of the Jewish question?

Mr. RUBY. Many fights. I know on several occasions he came home once with his suit full of blood from downtown.

He was downtown Chicago. I said, “What happened?”

He said, “Somebody called me a dirty Jew or something like that.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he fought with on that occasion?

Mr. RUBY. No, no; there are many instances that my older brothers and sisters know of because I was younger, 4 years younger and in his teens, early teens, I didn’t go with him because 4 years makes a big difference, and I went my way and he went his way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Jack at the time that you saw him with this suit full of blood?

Mr. RUBY. This goes back now, if I recall in 1946, I think, 1946.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after he got out of the service?

Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he told me he had several fights in the service regarding this. He told me he had fights with a professional heavyweight in the service because he said something about the Jews.

My brother was so Jewish conscious that it didn’t make any difference whether he said, swore at him for being a Jew or he swore at somebody else a half a block away. He would get in there and fight right away, you know, unless they apologized and what have you. And he—so this, checking into it from what the psychiatrists tell me, he went out of his way to show the gentiles that in their thinking that all the Jews are no good or money grabbers or what have you, here was a nice guy that went out of his way—and didn’t have the money—to help anybody he could.

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