Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856, Vol. 1 (of 16) (part 2 of 10)

Introduction

The debates of Congress have been accruing for near seventy years, and fill more than an hundred volumes, and cannot be purchased for less than $500, nor advantageously used, on account of the quantity of superfluous matter which they contain. They are printed in full by Congress, and ought to be so, and a small distribution is made among the members; but this distribution cannot reach the community, and would be nearly useless if it did, from the quantity of obsolete, local and transient matter which overloads them. In the mean time, these debates contain the history of the working of our Government from its foundation--preserve and hand down to posterity the wisdom of ages--show what has been done, and how it was done--and shed light upon the study of all impending questions; for there is not a question of the day, and will not be while the Government continues, which will not be illustrated by something previously said in these debates.

All works consisting of periodical accumulations require periodical abridgment, in which, being relieved of what is superfluous, the residuum becomes more valuable from the disencumbrance--of easier use to the reader--and more accessible to the community, from the diminution of price and quantity. Even the reports of the Supreme Court of the United States, though comparatively free from redundant or obsolete matter, have undergone abridgment--three volumes reduced to one--and become more valuable from the reduction. The same may be done with these debates, and with a far greater license of reduction, from the very nature of popular debating. Some fifteen or sixteen octavo volumes, double columns, are expected to contain all that retains a surviving interest in the (more than) one hundred volumes, now surcharged with the full debates.

The abridgment will not be restricted to the speeches of the celebrated orators, but extend to those of the business men, and to the plainest speakers--who are often the members who give the most useful information. Full speeches are not expected to be given, there being none, after a short time, which do not contain much matter that has lost its interest. Many entire heads of reported proceedings and discussions would be omitted: as--The morning presentation of petitions, often the same for ten or twenty years, and presented in both Houses at the same time: discussion on private bills, which have no general interest: mere personalities: the endless repetition of yeas and nays, sometimes recorded an hundred times in contests about the same bill, when three or four sets would be sufficient to show the opinion of every member upon every material point: repetitions of speeches, for it is impossible that a member speaking for ten or twenty sessions on the same subject, (tariff, internal improvement, national bank, &c.) should not repeat the same thing over and over again.

The work is intended to be national, such as would commend itself to the study, and come within the reach, of all who aspire to a share in the public affairs, either State or Federal; or who wish to understand the history and working of their own Government. It is the only way in which the wisdom of the earlier generation of our statesmen who put the Government into operation--the Madisons, Gallatins, John Marshalls, William B. Giles, the Fisher Ames, Roger Shermans, &c.--can be made known to the present or future ages; and it is the best way in which the speeches of those who have lived in our own day, even the most eminent, can be diffused. For the speeches of no one, published in mass and alone, can have more than a local circulation; while judicious selections from a whole debate, enlivened by the vivacity of contention, going into a general work of this kind, must have a general circulation, and carry the name of the speaker, and the best of his speaking, into every part of the Union.

Some notes, or commentaries, will be added by the author, discriminated from the text, to mark great starting, or turning points, in our legislative history, with a view to assist the reader in making the practical applications which give utility to knowledge. For example: At the beginning of the first tariff debate in the first session of the first Congress, he will show that Mr. Madison compressed into twenty-two short lines, of eight or nine words each, all the principles of impost and tonnage duties which have governed all wise legislation upon the two subjects from that time to the present--namely: Specific duties the rule--ad valorems the exception: revenue the object--incidental encouragement to home industry the incident: specifics on all the leading and staple articles--ad valorems on the inferior remainder: discrimination between articles of luxury and necessity, so as to put the burthen on the former--and between articles made, or not made, at home, so as to give encouragement to the home article: and all these duties moderate, so as not to shackle trade or agriculture. These were his principles on impost duties. Those on tonnage consisted of discriminations in favor of our own ships, and in favor of nations having treaties of commerce with us, so as to encourage our own ship-building and navigation, and also to stimulate all nations to make commercial treaties with us. And thus, every object of impost legislation was provided for:--revenue for the Government, encouragement to home industry, exemption from burthen to trade and agriculture.

Then, at the end of that debate, (which began in April, and ended in May,) it will be shown that a rate of duties was established, corresponding with these principles--all moderate, and adapted each to its object: five per centum on the lowest class of ad valorems, seven and a half on the next, and fifteen for the highest, and it of luxuries. The specific duties, applicable to the mass of the importations, at the same low rate; and this low rate, on the small importation of that time, and with the economy of that time, producing seven times the amount of revenue necessary for the "support" of the Government! leaving six sevenths to go to the public debt and Indian wars. The same rates of duty, with the same economy, ought to be equally sufficient now upon a sevenfold importation of dutiable goods.

The Emperor Justinian, in compiling his Institutes, commended their study to the liberal-minded youth of the empire who aspired to employment in the government; for that emperor, although a great and victorious general, yet placed the arts of peace and government above the exploits of war, and wished to see law and order, more than arms, studied and cultivated in his dominion. The great Emperor Napoleon had the same appreciation of legal and civil studies; and hence the Four Codes, at the digest of which he personally assisted, and the conception and execution of which do so much honor to his memory. In our own government the career of public employment is open to all, and should be prepared for by all who aspire to enter it. Of elementary political works we have many, and excellent; but most of them only teach principles, and that abstractly, without practice. Practical works are wanted to complete the study, and of these the most ample and least ungrateful may be a well-considered and impartial abridgment of the Debates of Congress.

And here the Author discharges an obligation of gratitude and justice to the earlier generation of our statesmen. He owes what he is to them. His political principles were learnt in their school--his knowledge obtained from their works--his patriotism confirmed by their example--his love of the Union exalted by their teaching.

THE AUTHOR.

WASHINGTON CITY, May, 1856.

FIRST CONGRESS.--FIRST SESSION.

HELD AT THE CITY OF NEW YORK, MARCH 4 TO SEPTEMBER 29, 1789.

PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,--GEORGE WASHINGTON.

PROCEEDINGS[2] IN THE SENATE.

WEDNESDAY, March 4, 1789.

This being the day for the meeting of the new Congress, the following members of the Senate appeared and took their seats:[3]

From New Hampshire, JOHN LANGDON and PAINE WINGATE.

From Massachusetts, CALEB STRONG.

From Connecticut, WILLIAM S. JOHNSON and OLIVER ELLSWORTH.

From Pennsylvania, WILLIAM MACLAY and ROBERT MORRIS.

From Georgia, WILLIAM FEW.

The members present not being a quorum, they adjourned from day to day, until

WEDNESDAY, March 11.

When the same members being present as on the 4th instant, it was agreed that a circular should be written to the absent members, requesting their immediate attendance.

THURSDAY, March 12.

No additional members appearing, the members present adjourned from day to day, until

WEDNESDAY, March 18.

When no additional members appearing, it was agreed that another circular should be written to eight of the nearest absent members, particularly desiring their attendance, in order to form a quorum.

THURSDAY, March 19.

WILLIAM PATERSON, from New Jersey, appeared and took his seat.

FRIDAY, March 20.

No additional member appeared.

SATURDAY, March 21.

RICHARD BASSETT, from Delaware, appeared and took his seat.

A sufficient number of members to form a quorum not appearing, the members present adjourned from day to day, until

SATURDAY, March 28.

JONATHAN ELMER, from New Jersey, appeared and took his seat.

No other member appearing, an adjournment took place from day to day, until

MONDAY, April 6.

RICHARD HENRY LEE, from Virginia, then appearing, took his seat and formed a quorum of the whole Senators of the United States.

The credentials of the members present being read and ordered to be filed, the Senate proceeded, by ballot, to the choice of a President for the sole purpose of opening and counting the votes for President of the United States.

JOHN LANGDON was elected.

Ordered, That Mr. ELLSWORTH inform the House of Representatives that a quorum of the Senate is formed; that a President is elected for the sole purpose of opening the certificates, and counting the votes of the electors of the several States, in the choice of a President and Vice President of the United States; and that the Senate is now ready, in the Senate Chamber, to proceed in the presence of the House, to discharge that duty; and that the Senate have appointed one of their members to sit at the clerk's table, to make a list of the votes as they shall be declared; submitting it to the wisdom of the House to appoint one or more of their members for the like purpose.

Mr. ELLSWORTH reported that he had delivered the message; and Mr. BOUDINOT, from the House of Representatives, informed the Senate that the House is ready forthwith to meet them, to attend the opening and counting of the votes of the electors of the President and Vice President of the United States.

The Speaker and the members of the House of Representatives attended in the Senate Chamber; and the President elected for the purpose of counting the votes, declared that the Senate and House of Representatives had met, and that he, in their presence, had opened and counted the votes of the electors for President and Vice President of the United States, which were as follows:

[Transcriber's Note: Legend Created to make table fit.]

A = George Washington, Esq. B = John Adams, Esq. C = Samuel Huntingdon, Esq. D = John Jay, Esq. E = John Hancock, Esq. F = Robert H. Harrison, Esq. G = George Clinton, Esq. H = John Rutledge, Esq. I = John Milton, Esq. J = James Armstrong, Esq. K = Edward Telfair, Esq. L = Benjamin Lincoln, Esq.

STATES.

A B C D E F G H I J K L New Hampshire, 5 5 Massachusetts, 10 10 Connecticut, 7 5 2 New Jersey, 6 1 .. 5 Pennsylvania, 10 8 .. .. 2 Delaware, 3 .. .. 3 Maryland, 6 .. .. .. .. 6 Virginia, 10 5 .. 1 1 .. 3 South Carolina, 7 .. .. .. 1 .. .. 6 Georgia, 5 .. .. .. .. .. .. .. 2 1 1 1

Total, 69 34 2 9 4 6 3 6 2 1 1 1

Whereby it appeared that GEORGE WASHINGTON, Esq. was elected President, and JOHN ADAMS, Esq. Vice President of the United States of America.

Mr. MADISON, from the House of Representatives, thus addressed the Senate:

MR. PRESIDENT: I am directed by the House of Representatives to inform the Senate, that the House have agreed that the notifications of the election of the President and of the Vice President of the United States, should be made by such persons, and in such manner, as the Senate shall be pleased to direct.

And he withdrew.

Whereupon, the Senate appointed CHARLES THOMSON, Esq. to notify GEORGE WASHINGTON, Esq. of his election to the office of President of the United States of America, and Mr. SYLVANUS BOURN, to notify JOHN ADAMS, Esq. of his election to the office of Vice President of the said United States.

A letter was received from James Duane, Esq. enclosing resolutions of the mayor, aldermen, and commonalty, of the city of New York, tendering to Congress the use of the City Hall.

James Mathews was elected doorkeeper.

TUESDAY, April 7.

Messrs. ELLSWORTH, PATERSON, MACLAY, STRONG, LEE, BASSETT, FEW, and WINGATE, were appointed a committee to bring in a bill for organizing the Judiciary of the United States.

Messrs. ELLSWORTH, LEE, STRONG, MACLAY, and BASSETT, were appointed a committee to prepare rules for the government of the two Houses in cases of conference, and to take under consideration the manner of electing chaplains, and to confer thereupon with a committee of the House of Representatives.

The same committee were also to prepare rules for conducting the business of the Senate.

WEDNESDAY, April 8.

The Senate proceeded to ballot for a Secretary, and SAMUEL ALYNE OTIS, Esq. was elected.

Cornelius Maxwell was appointed messenger.

THURSDAY, April 9.

Messrs. LANGDON, JOHNSON, and FEW, were appointed a committee to make arrangements for receiving the President, and were empowered to confer with any committee of the House of Representatives that may be appointed for that purpose.

MONDAY, April 13.

RALPH IZARD, from South Carolina, CHARLES CARROLL, from Maryland, and GEORGE REED, from Delaware, appeared and took their seats.

The report of the committee to prepare rules for conducting the business of the Senate was read, and ordered to lie for consideration.

Messrs. JOHNSON, IZARD, and MACLAY, were appointed a committee to confer with any committee appointed on the part of the House of Representatives, upon the future disposition of the papers in the office of the late Secretary of Congress, and report thereon.

The committee appointed to make arrangements for receiving the President, were directed to settle the manner of receiving the Vice President also.

Mr. CARROLL and Mr. IZARD were added to the Judiciary Committee.

TUESDAY, April 14.

TRISTRAM DALTON, from Massachusetts, appeared and took his seat.

A letter was written to the mayor of the city of New York, by the President of the Senate, acknowledging the respect shown to the Government, and accepting of the offer made by him of the City Hall for the use of Congress.

MONDAY, April 20.

JOHN HENRY, from Maryland, and JAMES GUNN, from Georgia, appeared and took their seats.

Messrs. STRONG and IZARD were appointed a committee to wait on the Vice President, and conduct him to the Senate Chamber.

TUESDAY, April 21.

The committee appointed to conduct the Vice President to the Senate Chamber, executed their commission, and Mr. LANGDON, the Vice President pro tempore, meeting the Vice President on the floor of the Senate Chamber, addressed him as follows.

SIR: I have it in charge from the Senate, to introduce you to the chair of this House; and, also, to congratulate you on your appointment to the office of Vice President of the United States of America.

[After which Mr. Langdon conducted the Vice President to the chair, when the Vice President addressed the Senate in a speech of congratulation on the successful formation of the Federal Union, the adoption of the Federal Constitution, and the auspicious circumstances under which the new government came into operation, under the presidency of him who had led the American armies to victory, and conducted by those who had contributed to achieve Independence.]

FRIDAY, April 24.

On motion, to reconsider the commission of the committee appointed the 23d instant, to report what titles shall be annexed to the offices of President and Vice President. Passed in the affirmative.

On motion, that the following words, "What titles it will be proper to annex to the offices of President and of Vice President of the United States; if any other than those given in the Constitution," be struck out. Passed in the negative.

On motion, that the words "style or" before the word "title," be added. Passed in the affirmative.

SATURDAY, April 25.

The Right Reverend SAMUEL PROVOST was elected Chaplain.

A letter from CHARLES THOMSON, Esq., dated the 24th of April, 1789, directed to the President of the Senate, purporting his having delivered to General WASHINGTON the certificate of his being elected President of the United States, was read, and ordered to be filed.

The committee appointed to consider of the time, place, and manner, in which, and of the person by whom, the oath prescribed by the Constitution shall be administered to the President of the United States, and to confer with a committee of the House appointed for that purpose, report:

That the President hath been pleased to signify to them, that at any time or place which both Houses may think proper to appoint, and any manner which shall appear most eligible to them, will be convenient and acceptable to him; that requisite preparations cannot probably be made before Thursday next; that the President be on that day formally received by both Houses in the Senate Chamber; that the Representatives' Chamber being capable of receiving the greater number of persons, that, therefore, the President do take the oath in that place, and in the presence of both Houses.

That, after the formal reception of the President in the Senate Chamber, he be attended by both Houses to the Representatives' Chamber, and that the oath be administered by the Chancellor of the State of New York.

The committee farther report it as their opinion, that it will be proper that a committee of both Houses be appointed to take order for conducting the business. Read and accepted.

Whereupon, Mr. LEE, Mr. IZARD, and Mr. DALTON, on the part of the Senate, together with a committee that may be appointed on the part of the House of Representatives, were empowered to take order for conducting the business.

An order of the House of Representatives, concurring in the appointment of a committee on their part to confer with a committee appointed on the 24th instant, on the part of the Senate, to consider and report, "what style, &c., it will be proper to annex to the offices of President and Vice President," was read, by which it appeared, that Mr. BENSON, Mr. AMES, Mr. MADISON, Mr. CARROLL, and Mr. SHERMAN, were appointed on the part of the House.

MONDAY, April 27.

The committee appointed to take order for conducting the ceremonial of the formal reception, &c., of the President, reported:

That it appears to them more eligible that the oath should be administered to the President in the outer gallery adjoining the Senate Chamber, than in the Representatives' Chamber, and therefore, submit to the respective Houses the propriety of authorizing their committee to take order as to the place where the oath shall be administered to the President, the resolution of Saturday assigning the Representatives' Chamber as the place, notwithstanding. Read and accepted.

Resolved, That after the oath shall have been administered to the President, he, attended by the Vice President, and members of the Senate, and House of Representatives, proceed to St. Paul's Chapel, to hear divine service, to be performed by the Chaplain of Congress already appointed. Sent to the House of Representatives for concurrence.

TUESDAY, April 28.

Received from the House of Representatives, the report of a joint committee on the ceremonial to be observed in administering the oath, &c., to the President; and a bill to regulate the time and manner of administering certain oaths. The report was read and ordered to lie on the table; and the bill received its first reading.

THURSDAY, April 30.

Mr. LEE, in behalf of the committee appointed to take order for conducting the ceremonial of the formal reception, &c., of the President of the United States, having informed the Senate that the same was adjusted, the House of Representatives were notified that the Senate were ready to receive them in the Senate Chamber, to attend the President of the United States, while taking the oath required by the Constitution. Whereupon, the House of Representatives, preceded by their Speaker, came into the Senate Chamber, and took the seats assigned them, and the joint committee, preceded by their chairman, agreeably to order, introduced the President of the United States to the Senate Chamber, where he was received by the Vice President, who conducted him to the chair, when the Vice President informed him, that "the Senate, and House of Representatives of the United States, were ready to attend him to take the oath required by the Constitution, and that it would be administered by the Chancellor of the State of New York." To which the President replied, he was ready to proceed; and being attended to the gallery in front of the Senate Chamber, by the Vice President and Senators, the Speaker and Representatives, and the other public characters present, the oath was administered. After which, the Chancellor proclaimed, "Long live George Washington, President of the United States."

The PRESIDENT, having returned to his seat, after a short pause arose, and addressed the Senate and House of Representatives as follows:[4]

Fellow-Citizens of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives:

Among the vicissitudes incident to life, no event could have filled me with greater anxieties than that of which the notification was transmitted by your order, and received on the 14th day of the present month. On the one hand, I was summoned by my country, whose voice I can never hear but with veneration and love, from a retreat which I had chosen with the fondest predilection, and, in my flattering hopes, with an immutable decision, as the asylum of my declining years: a retreat which was rendered every day more necessary, as well as more dear to me, by the addition of habit to inclination, and of frequent interruptions in my health, to the gradual waste committed on it by time. On the other hand, the magnitude and difficulty of the trust to which the voice of my country called me, being sufficient to awaken in the wisest and most experienced of her citizens a distrustful scrutiny into his qualifications, could not but overwhelm with despondence one, who, inheriting inferior endowments from nature, and unpractised in the duties of civil administration, ought to be peculiarly conscious of his own deficiencies. In this conflict of emotions, all I dare aver is, that it has been my faithful study to collect my duty from a just appreciation of every circumstance by which it might be effected. All I dare hope is that if, in executing this task, I have been too much swayed by a grateful remembrance of former instances, or by an affectionate sensibility to this transcendent proof of the confidence of my fellow-citizens, and have thence too little consulted my incapacity as well as disinclination for the weighty and untried cares before me, my error will be palliated by the motives which misled me, and its consequences be judged by my country, with some share of the partiality in which they originated.

* * * * *

To the preceding observations I have one to add, which will be most properly addressed to the House of Representatives. It concerns myself, and will, therefore, be as brief as possible. When I was first honored with a call into the service of my country, then on the eve of an arduous struggle for its liberties, the light in which I contemplated my duty required that I should renounce every pecuniary compensation. From this resolution I have in no instance departed. And being still under the impressions which, produced it, I must decline, as inapplicable to myself, any share in the personal emoluments which may be indispensably included in a permanent provision for the executive department; and must accordingly pray that the pecuniary estimates for the station in which I am placed may, during my continuance in it, be limited to such actual expenditures as the public good may be thought to require.

Having thus imparted to you my sentiments, as they have been awakened by the occasion which brings us together, I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the benign Parent of the human race, in humble supplication, that since He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquillity, and dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of Government for the security of their union, and the advancement of their happiness, so his divine blessing may be equally conspicuous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations, and the wise measures, on which the success of this Government must depend.

G. WASHINGTON.

April 30, 1789.

The President, the Vice President, the Senate, and House of Representatives, &c., then proceeded to St. Paul's Chapel, where divine service was performed by the chaplain of Congress, after which the President was reconducted to his house by the committee appointed for that purpose.

The Vice President and Senate returned to the Senate Chamber; and,

Upon motion, unanimously agreed, That a committee of three should be appointed to prepare an answer to the President's speech. Mr. JOHNSON, Mr. PATERSON, and Mr. CARROLL, were elected.

THURSDAY, May 7.

The committee appointed to confer with such committee as might be appointed on the part of the House of Representatives, to report what style or titles it will be proper to annex to the offices of President and of Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the Constitution, reported.

Which report was ordered to lie for consideration.

The committee appointed to prepare an answer to the President's speech, delivered to the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States, reported as follows:

SIR: We, the Senate of the United States, return you our sincere thanks for your excellent speech delivered to both Houses of Congress; congratulate you on the complete organization of the Federal Government; and felicitate ourselves and our fellow-citizens on your elevation to the office of President; an office highly important by the powers constitutionally annexed to it, and extremely honorable from the manner in which the appointment is made. The unanimous suffrage of the elective body in your favor, is peculiarly expressive of the gratitude, confidence, and affection of the citizens of America, and is the highest testimonial at once of your merit and their esteem. We are sensible, sir, that nothing but the voice of your fellow-citizens could have called you from a retreat, chosen with the fondest predilection, endeared by habit, and consecrated to the repose of declining years. We rejoice, and with us all America, that, in obedience to the call of our common country, you have returned once more to public life. In you all parties confide; in you all interests unite; and we have no doubt that your past services, great as they have been, will be equalled by your future exertions; and that your prudence and sagacity as a statesman will tend to avert the dangers to which we are exposed, to give stability to the present Government, and dignity and splendor to that country, which your skill and valor, as a soldier, so eminently contributed to raise to independence and empire.

When we contemplate the coincidence of circumstances, and wonderful combination of causes, which gradually prepared the people of this country for independence; when we contemplate the rise, progress, and termination of the late war, which gave them a name among the nations of the earth; we are, with you, unavoidably led to acknowledge and adore the great Arbiter of the universe, by whom empires rise and fall. A review of the many signal instances of divine interposition in favor of this country claims our most pious gratitude; and permit us, sir, to observe, that, among the great events which have led to the formation and establishment of a Federal Government, we esteem your acceptance of the office of President as one of the most propitious and important.

In the execution of the trust reposed in us, we shall endeavor to pursue that enlarged and liberal policy to which your speech so happily directs. We are conscious that the prosperity of each State is inseparably connected with the welfare of all, and that, in promoting the latter, we shall effectually advance the former. In full persuasion of this truth, it shall be our invariable aim to divest ourselves of local prejudices and attachments, and to view the great assemblage of communities and interests committed to our charge with an equal eye. We feel, sir, the force, and acknowledge the justness of the observation, that the foundation of our national policy should be laid in private morality. If individuals be not influenced by moral principles, it is in vain to look for public virtue; it is, therefore, the duty of legislators to enforce, both by precept and example, the utility, as well as the necessity, of a strict adherence to the rules of distributive justice. We beg you to be assured that the Senate will, at all times, cheerfully co-operate in every measure which may strengthen the Union, conduce to the happiness, or secure and perpetuate the liberties of this great confederated republic.

We commend you, sir, to the protection of Almighty God, earnestly beseeching him long to preserve a life so valuable and dear to the people of the United States; and that your administration may be prosperous to the nation, and glorious to yourself.

Read and accepted; and

Ordered, That the Vice President should affix his signature to the address, in behalf of the Senate.

FRIDAY, May 8.

The report of the committee appointed to determine "What style or title it will be proper to annex to the offices of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the Constitution;" and to confer with a committee of the House of Representatives appointed for the same purpose, was considered, and disagreed to.

The question was taken, "Whether the President of the United States shall be addressed by the title of His Excellency?" and it passed in the negative.

On motion that a committee of three be appointed to consider and report under what title it will be proper for the Senate to address the President of the United States, Mr. LEE, Mr. ELLSWORTH, and Mr. JOHNSON, were elected.

SATURDAY, May 9.

A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that they had accepted the report of the committee appointed to consider what style or title it will be proper to annex to the offices of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the Constitution.

Ordered, That Mr. FEW, Mr. MACLAY, and Mr. STRONG, be a committee to view the apartments in the City Hall, and to confer with any committee that may be appointed by the House of Representatives for that purpose, and report how the same shall be appropriated.

The committee appointed to consider under what title it will be proper for the Senate to address the President of the United States, reported; the consideration of which was postponed until Monday next.

The Secretary was charged with a message to the House of Representatives, with the order of Senate passed the 7th instant, on the mode adopted by the Senate in receiving communications from that House.

Ordered, That Mr. LEE, Mr. ELLSWORTH, and Mr. JOHNSON, be a committee to confer with any committee to be appointed by the House of Representatives, on the difference of opinion now subsisting between the two Houses, respecting the title of the President of the United States; and, on motion for reconsideration, the instruction to the committee was agreed to, as follows:

"That they consider and report under what title it will be proper for the President of the United States in future to be addressed, and confer thereon with such committee as the House of Representatives may appoint for that purpose."

The Secretary carried to the House of Representatives the appointment of a committee, on the part of the Senate, to view the rooms in the City Hall, and to confer upon their appropriation;

The rejection of the report of the committee appointed to consider what style, &c., it will be proper to annex to the offices of President and of Vice President;

And the appointment of a committee on the part of the Senate to confer on a title under which it will be proper to address the President of the United States.

MONDAY, May 11.

Ordered, That the consideration of the report of the committee upon "the title by which it will be proper for the Senate to address the President," be postponed until Tuesday next.

TUESDAY, May 12.

Ordered, That the committee appointed the 9th of May, to consider "by what title it will be proper for the Senate to address the President of the United States", be instructed to confer with the committee of the House of Representatives, agreeably to the proposition in their message of this day.

A motion for the committee, appointed to address the President, to proceed, was postponed to Thursday next.

THURSDAY, May 14.

The committee, appointed the 9th instant, to determine "under what title it will be proper for the Senate to address the President," and to confer with a committee of the House of Representatives "upon the disagreeing votes of the Senate and House," informed the Senate that they had conferred with a committee of the House of Representatives, but could not agree upon a report.

The committee appointed the 9th instant, "to consider and report under what title it will be proper for the Senate to address the President of the United States of America," reported:

That, in the opinion of the committee, it will be proper thus to address the President: "His Highness, the President of the United States of America, and Protector of their Liberties."

Which report was postponed; and the following resolve was agreed to, to wit:

From a decent respect for the opinion and practice of civilized nations, whether under monarchical or republican forms of Government, whose custom is to annex titles of respectability to the office of their Chief Magistrate; and that, on intercourse with foreign nations, a due respect for the majesty of the people of the United States may not be hazarded by an appearance of singularity, the Senate have been induced to be of opinion, that it would be proper to annex a respectable title to the office of President of the United States; but, the Senate, desirous of preserving harmony with the House of Representatives, where the practice lately observed in presenting an address to the President was without the addition of titles, think it proper, for the present, to act in conformity with the practice of that House: therefore,

Resolved, That the present address be "To the President of the United States," without addition of title.

A motion was made to strike out the preamble as far as the words "but the Senate;" which passed in the negative:

And on motion for the main question, it passed in the affirmative.

The committee appointed to consider and report a mode of carrying into effect the provision in the second clause of the third section of the first article of the Constitution, reported;

Whereupon,

Resolved, That the Senators be divided into three classes;

The first to consist of Mr. Langdon, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Morris, Mr. Henry, Mr. Izard, and Mr. Gunn;

The second of Mr. Wingate, Mr. Strong, Mr. Paterson, Mr. Bassett, Mr. Lee, Mr. Butler, and Mr. Few;

And the third of Mr. Dalton, Mr. Ellsworth, Mr. Elmer, Mr. Maclay, Mr. Read, Mr. Carroll, and Mr. Grayson.

That three papers of an equal size, numbered 1, 2, and 3, be, by the Secretary, rolled up and put into a box, and drawn by Mr. Langdon, Mr. Wingate, and Mr. Dalton, in behalf of the respective classes, in which each of them are placed; and that the classes shall vacate their seats in the Senate, according to the order of numbers drawn for them, beginning with No. 1.

And that, when Senators shall take their seats from States that have not yet appointed Senators, they shall be placed by lot in the foregoing classes, but in such manner as shall keep the classes as nearly equal as may be in numbers.

The committee appointed to confer with a committee of the House of Representatives, in preparing proper rules to be established for the enrolment, &c. of the acts of Congress, reported; which report was ordered to lie for consideration.

Ordered, That the committee appointed to draft an answer to the President's speech, wait on him, and request him to appoint the time when it will be agreeable to receive the address of the Senate, at his own house.

FRIDAY, May 15.

The committee appointed to draft an answer to the President's speech further reported; whereupon it was

Agreed, That the Senate should wait on the President at his own house on Monday next, at a quarter after 11 o'clock, and that the Vice President then present the address of the Senate, as agreed to on the 7th instant.

The Senate proceeded to determine the classes, agreeably to the resolve of yesterday, on the mode of carrying into effect the provision of the second clause of the third section of the first article of the Constitution; and the numbers being drawn, the classes were determined as follows:

Lot No. 1, drawn by Mr. Dalton, contained Mr. Dalton, Mr. Ellsworth, Mr. Elmer, Mr. Maclay, Mr. Read, Mr. Carroll, and Mr. Grayson; whose seats shall, accordingly, be vacated in the Senate at the expiration of the second year.

Lot No. 2. drawn by Mr. Wingate, contained Mr. Wingate, Mr. Strong, Mr. Paterson, Mr. Bassett, Mr. Lee, Mr. Butler, and Mr. Few; whose seats shall, accordingly, be vacated in the Senate at the expiration of the fourth year.

Lot No. 3, drawn by Mr. Langdon, contained Mr. Langdon, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Morris, Mr. Henry, Mr. Izard, and Mr. Gunn; whose seats shall, accordingly, be vacated in the Senate at the expiration of the sixth year.

MONDAY, May 18.

Agreeably to the order of the 15th instant, the Senate waited on the President of the United States at his own house, when the Vice President, in their name, delivered to the President the address agreed to on the 7th instant. To which the President of the United States was pleased to make the following reply:

GENTLEMEN: I thank you for your address, in which the most affectionate sentiments are expressed in the most obliging terms. The coincidence of circumstances which led to this auspicious crisis, the confidence reposed in me by my fellow-citizens, and the assistance I may expect from counsels which will be dictated by an enlarged and liberal policy, seem to presage a more prosperous issue to my administration than a diffidence of my abilities had taught me to anticipate. I now feel myself inexpressibly happy in a belief that Heaven, which has done so much for our infant nation, will not withdraw its providential influence before our political felicity shall have been completed, and in a conviction that the Senate will at all times co-operate in every measure which may tend to promote the welfare of this confederated republic. Thus supported by a firm trust in the great Arbiter of the universe, aided by the collective wisdom of the Union, and imploring the divine benediction on our joint exertions in the service of our country, I readily engage with you in the arduous but pleasing task of attempting to make a nation happy.

G. WASHINGTON.

THURSDAY, May 21.

WILLIAM GRAYSON, from Virginia, appeared and took his seat.

Resolved, That all bills on a second reading shall be considered by the Senate in the same manner as if the Senate were in a committee of the whole, before they shall be taken up and proceeded on by the Senate, agreeably to the standing rules, unless otherwise ordered.

MONDAY, May 25.

The Senate to-day, for the first time, entered upon executive business, having received from the President of the United States a communication covering a report from the Secretary of War, on the negotiations of the Governor of the Western Territory with certain northern and north-western Indians, and the treaties made in consequence thereof at Fort Harmar, on the 9th of January, 1789, which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

THURSDAY, May 28.

The Senate proceeded in the consideration of the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares and merchandises imported into the United States; and, after debate, adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, June 3.

Ordered, That Mr. LANGDON administer the oath to the Vice President; which was done accordingly.

And the Vice President administered the oath according to law, to the following members: to Messrs. LANGDON, WINGATE, STRONG, DALTON, JOHNSON, ELLSWORTH, PATERSON, MACLAY, MORRIS, READ, BASSETT, CARROLL, HENRY, LEE, GRAYSON, IZARD, FEW, GUNN.

The same oath was, by the Vice President, administered to the Secretary, together with the oath of office.

MONDAY, June 8.

PIERCE BUTLER, from South Carolina, appeared and took his seat.

The Vice President administered the oath to Mr. Butler.

TUESDAY, June 16.

The Senate entered on executive business. A communication from the President informed them that Mr. JEFFERSON wished to return home, and he proposed WILLIAM SHORT, Esq. to take his place as minister to France. Laid on the table.

WEDNESDAY, June 17.

The Senate went into executive business. They examined into the fitness of Mr. SHORT to supply the place of Mr. JEFFERSON, but came to no conclusion.

THURSDAY, June 18.

The Senate went into executive business, and confirmed the appointment of Mr. SHORT to take charge of our affairs at the court of France, during the absence of the minister.

THURSDAY, June 25.

The Senate proceeded to the consideration of the bill for establishing an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs; which was read the first time, and ordered to lie for consideration.

FRIDAY, July 17.

On motion, that, on the final question upon a bill or resolve, any member shall have a right to enter his protest or dissent on the journal, with reasons in support of such dissent, provided the same be offered within two days after the determination on such final question:

Passed in the negative.

TUESDAY, July 21.

The Senate entered on executive business, and

Ordered, That the Secretary of Foreign Affairs attend the Senate to-morrow, and bring with him such papers as are requisite to give full information relative to the consular convention between France and the United States.

WEDNESDAY, July 22.

The Senate were to-day mostly engaged in executive business. The Secretary of Foreign Affairs attended, agreeably to order, and made the necessary explanations; and the following resolution was entered into.[5]

SATURDAY, July 25.

RUFUS KING, from New York, appeared, and took his seat.

MONDAY, July 27.

PHILIP SCHUYLER, from New York, appeared, and took his seat.

TUESDAY, July 28.

On motion, the Senators from the State of New York proceeded to draw lots for their classes, in conformity to the resolve of the 14th of May; and two lots, No. 3, and a blank, being, by the Secretary, rolled up and put into the box, Mr. SCHUYLER drew blank; and Mr. KING having drawn No. 3, his seat shall accordingly be vacated in the Senate at the expiration of the sixth year.

The Secretary proceeded to put two other lots into the box, marked Nos. 1 and 2; and Mr. SCHUYLER having drawn lot No. 1, his seat shall accordingly be vacated in the Senate at the expiration of the second year.

MONDAY, August 3.

The Senate entered on executive business. The President communicated to them a list of about one hundred appointments as collectors, naval officers, and surveyors. The Senate advised and consented to about one-half the list; the rest lay till to-morrow.

TUESDAY, August 4.

A message from the House of Representatives brought up a bill for making compensation to the President and Vice President of the United States, and desired the concurrence of the Senate therein;

Together with the appointment of Messrs. WADSWORTH, CARROLL, and HARTLEY, a committee, to join with a committee of the Senate to be appointed for the purpose, "to consider of and report when it will be convenient and proper that an adjournment of the present session of Congress should take place; and to consider and report such business, now before Congress, necessary to be finished before the adjournment, and such as may be conveniently postponed to the next session; and, also, to consider and report such matters, not now before Congress, but which it will be necessary should be considered and determined by Congress before an adjournment."

The Senate again entered on executive business, and advised and confirmed all the remainder of the list of appointments presented yesterday, one excepted.

FRIDAY, August 7.

The Senate, in the absence of the Vice President, proceeded to elect a President pro tempore; and the votes being collected and counted, the Honorable JOHN LANGDON was unanimously appointed.

A message from the President of the United States, by General Knox:

Gentlemen of the Senate:

The business which has hitherto been under the consideration of Congress has been of so much importance, that I was unwilling to draw their attention from it to any other subject. But the disputes which exist between some of the United States and several powerful tribes of Indians, within the limits of the Union, and the hostilities which have, in several instances, been committed on the frontiers, seem to require the immediate interposition of the General Government.

I have, therefore, directed the several statements and papers which have been submitted to me on this subject, by General Knox, to be laid before you for your information.

While the measures of Government ought to be calculated to protect its citizens from all injury and violence, a due regard should be extended to those Indian tribes whose happiness, in the course of events, so materially depends on the national justice and humanity of the United States.

If it should be the judgment of Congress that it would be most expedient to terminate all differences in the southern district, and to lay the foundation for future confidence, by an amicable treaty with the Indian tribes in that quarter, I think proper to suggest the consideration of the expediency of instituting a temporary commission for that purpose, to consist of three persons, whose authority should expire with the occasion. How far such a measure, unassisted by posts, would be competent to the establishment and preservation of peace and tranquillity on the frontiers, is also a matter which merits your serious consideration.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

NEW YORK, August 7, 1789.

The above message was ordered to lie for consideration.[6]

Mr. MORRIS, in behalf of the committee on the bill for allowing a compensation to the President and Vice President of the United States, reported an amendment, to wit:

To expunge, in the provision for the Vice President, "five thousand dollars," and insert "six thousand dollars."

On motion to reduce the provision for the President of the United States, from "twenty-five thousand" to "twenty thousand dollars:"

Passed in the negative.

On motion to make the provision for the Vice President eight thousand dollars, instead of five thousand dollars:

Passed in the negative.

The Senate entered on executive business.

The following message from the President was laid before them:

Gentlemen of the Senate:

My nomination of Benjamin Fishbourn for the place of naval officer of the port of Savannah not having met with your concurrence, I now nominate Lachlan McIntosh for that office.[7]

Whatever may have been the reasons which induced your dissent, I am persuaded they were such as you deemed sufficient. Permit me to submit to your consideration whether, on occasions where the propriety of nominations appears questionable to you, it would not be expedient to communicate that circumstance to me, and thereby avail yourselves of the information which led me to make them, and which I would with pleasure lay before you. Probably my reasons for nominating Mr. Fishbourn may tend to show that such a mode of proceeding, in such cases, might be useful. I will, therefore, detail them.

First. While Colonel Fishbourn was an officer, in actual service, and chiefly under my own eye, his conduct appeared to me irreproachable; nor did I ever hear any thing injurious to his reputation as an officer or a gentleman. At the storming of Stony Point, his behavior was represented to have been active and brave, and he was charged by his General to bring the account of that success to the head quarters of the army.

Secondly. Since his residence in Georgia, he has been repeatedly elected to the Assembly as a representative of the county of Chatham, in which the port of Savannah is situated, and sometimes of the counties of Glynn and Camden; he has been chosen a member of the executive council of the State, and has lately been president of the same; he has been elected by the officers of the militia, in the county of Chatham, lieutenant-colonel of the militia in that district; and, on a very recent occasion, to wit, in the month of May last, he has been appointed by the council (on the suspension of the late collector) to an office in the port of Savannah, nearly similar to that for which I nominated him; which office he actually holds at this time. To these reasons for nominating Mr. Fishbourn, I might add that I received private letters of recommendation, and oral testimonials in his favor, from some of the most respectable characters in that State; but as they were secondary considerations with me, I do not think it necessary to communicate them to you.

It appeared, therefore, to me, that Mr. Fishbourn must have enjoyed the confidence of the militia officers, in order to have been elected to a military rank; the confidence of the freemen, to have been elected to the Assembly; the confidence of the Assembly, to have been selected for the council; and the confidence of the council, to have been appointed collector of the port of Savannah.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

NEW YORK, August 6, 1789.

FRIDAY, August 21.

The Senate entered on executive business. They proceeded to consider the report made by Mr. IZARD, yesterday, as follows:

The committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, and confer with him on the mode of communication proper to be pursued between him and the Senate, in the formation of treaties, and making appointments to offices, reported:

Which report was agreed to. Whereupon,

Resolved, That when nominations shall be made in writing by the President of the United States to the Senate, a future day shall be assigned, unless the Senate unanimously direct otherwise, for taking them into consideration; that when the President of the United States shall meet the Senate in the Senate Chamber, the President of the Senate shall have a chair on the floor, be considered as at the head of the Senate, and his chair shall be assigned to the President of the United States; that when the Senate shall be convened by the President of the United States to any other place, the President of the Senate and Senators shall attend at the place appointed. The Secretary of the Senate shall also attend to take the minutes of the Senate.

That all questions shall be put by the President of the Senate, either in the presence or absence of the President of the United States; and the Senators shall signify their assent or dissent by answering viva voce, aye or no.[8]

Another message was received from the President, viz:

Gentlemen of the Senate:

The President of the United States will meet the Senate, in the Senate Chamber, at half-past eleven o'clock to-morrow, to advise with them on the terms of the treaty to be negotiated with the Southern Indians.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

NEW YORK, August 21, 1789.

SATURDAY, August 22.

The Senate again entered on executive business.

The President of the United States came into the Senate Chamber, attended by General Knox, and laid before the Senate the following statement of facts, with the questions thereto annexed, for their advice and consent:

[Here follows the statement of facts, and the questions thereto annexed, and the answer of the Senate to each question.]

MONDAY, August 24.

The Senate was to-day wholly engaged in executive business.

The President of the United States being present in the Senate Chamber, attended by General Knox,

The Senate resumed the consideration of the state of facts and questions thereto annexed, laid before them by the President of the United States, on Saturday last. And the first question, viz: "In the present state of affairs between North Carolina and the United States, will it be proper to take any other measures for redressing the injuries of the Cherokees than the one herein suggested?" being put, was answered in the negative.[9]

The third question, viz: "If the commissioners shall adjudge that the Creek nation was fully represented at the three treaties with Georgia, and that the cessions of land were obtained with the full understanding and free consent of the acknowledged proprietors, and that the said treaties ought to be considered as just and equitable: in this case, shall the commissioners be instructed to insist on a formal renewal and confirmation thereof? and, in case of a refusal, shall they be instructed to inform the Creeks that the arms of the Union shall be employed to compel them to acknowledge the justice of the said cessions?" was wholly answered in the affirmative.

The fourth question, and its four subdivisions, viz: "But if the commissioners shall adjudge that the said treaties were formed with an inadequate or unauthorized representation of the Creek nation, or that the treaties were held under circumstances of constraint or unfairness of any sort, so that the United States could not, with justice and dignity, request or urge a confirmation thereof: in this case, shall the commissioners, considering the importance of the Oconee lands to Georgia, be instructed to use their highest exertions to obtain a cession of said lands? If so, shall the commissioners be instructed, if they cannot obtain the said cessions on better terms, to offer for the same, and for the further great object of attaching the Creeks to the Government of the United States, the following conditions:

"1st. A compensation in money or goods, to the amount of ---- dollars; the said amount to be stipulated to be paid by Georgia at the period which shall be fixed, or in failure thereof, by the United States.

"2d. A secure port on the Altamaha or on St. Mary's river, or at any other place between the same, as may be mutually agreed to by the commissioners and the Creeks.

"3d. Certain pecuniary considerations to some, and honorary military distinctions to other influential chiefs, on their taking oaths of allegiance to the United States.

"4th. A solemn guarantee by the United States to the Creeks of their remaining territory, and to maintain the same, if necessary, by a line of military posts," was wholly answered in the affirmative. The blank to be filled at the discretion of the President of the United States.

The fifth question, viz: "But if all offers should fail to induce the Creeks to make the desired cessions to Georgia, shall the commissioners make it an ultimatum?" was answered in the negative.

The sixth question being divided, the first part, containing as follows, viz: "If the said cessions shall not be made an ultimatum, shall the commissioners proceed and make a treaty, and include the disputed lands within the limits which shall be assigned to the Creeks?" was answered in the negative.

The remainder, viz: "If not, shall a temporary boundary be marked, making the Oconee the line, and the other parts of the treaty be concluded?"

"In this case, shall a secure port be stipulated, and the pecuniary and honorary considerations granted?"

"In other general objects shall the treaties formed at Hopewell, with the Cherokees, Chickasaws, and Choctaws, be the basis of a treaty with the Creeks?" were all answered in the affirmative.

On the seventh question, viz: "Shall the sum of twenty thousand dollars, appropriated to Indian expenses and treaties, be wholly applied, if necessary, to a treaty with the Creeks? if not, what proportion?" It was agreed to advise and consent to appropriate the whole sum, if necessary, at the discretion of the President of the United States.

The President of the United States withdrew from the Senate Chamber, and the Vice President put the question of adjournment; to which the Senate agreed.

WEDNESDAY, September 16.

The following message from the President of the United States was received by the Secretary of War.

Gentlemen of the Senate:

The Governor of the Western Territory has made a statement to me of the reciprocal hostilities of the Wabash Indians, and the people inhabiting the frontiers bordering on the river Ohio, which I herewith lay before Congress.

The United States, in Congress assembled, by their acts of the 21st day of July, 1787, and of the 12th August, 1788, made a provisional arrangement for calling forth the militia of Virginia and Pennsylvania in the proportions therein specified.

As the circumstances which occasioned the said arrangement continue nearly the same, I think proper to suggest to your consideration the expediency of making some temporary provision for calling forth the militia of the United States for the purposes stated in the constitution, which would embrace the cases apprehended by the Governor of the Western Territory.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

September 16, 1789.

THURSDAY, September 17.

The Senate entered on executive business.

The following message was received from the President of the United States:

Gentlemen of the Senate:

It doubtless is important that all treaties and compacts formed by the United States with other nations, whether civilized or not, should be made with caution and executed with fidelity.

It is said to be the general understanding and practice of nations, as a check on the mistakes and indiscretions of ministers or commissioners, not to consider any treaty negotiated and signed by such officers as final and conclusive, until ratified by the sovereign or government from whom they derive their powers. This practice has been adopted by the United States respecting their treaties with European nations, and I am inclined to think it would be advisable to observe it in the conduct of our treaties with the Indians; for though such treaties being, on their part, made by their chiefs or rulers, need not be ratified by them, yet, being formed on our part by the agency of subordinate officers, it seems to be both prudent and reasonable that their acts should not be binding on the nation until approved and ratified by the Government. It strikes me that this point should be well considered and settled, so that our national proceedings, in this respect, may become uniform, and be directed by fixed and stable principles.

The treaties with certain Indian nations, which were laid before you with my message of the 25th May last, suggested two questions to my mind, viz: 1st, Whether those treaties were to be considered as perfected, and, consequently, as obligatory, without being ratified? If not, then, 2dly, Whether both, or either, and which of them, ought to be ratified? On these questions I request your opinion and advice.

You have, indeed, advised me "to execute and enjoin an observance of" the treaty with the Wyandots, &c. You, gentlemen, doubtless intended to be clear and explicit; and yet, without further explanation, I fear I may misunderstand your meaning: for if by my executing that treaty you mean that I should make it (in a more particular and immediate manner than it now is) the act of Government, then it follows that I am to ratify it. If you mean by my executing it that I am to see that it be carried into effect and operation, then I am led to conclude, either that you consider it as being perfect and obligatory in its present state, and therefore to be executed and observed; or that you consider it to derive its completion and obligation from the silent approbation and ratification which my proclamation may be construed to imply. Although I am inclined to think that the latter is your intention, yet it certainly is best that all doubts respecting it be removed.

Permit me to observe, that it will be proper for me to be informed of your sentiments relative to the treaty with the Six Nations, previous to the departure of the Governor of the Western Territory; and therefore I recommend it to your early consideration.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

September 17, 1789.

Ordered, That the President's message be committed to Messrs. CARROLL, KING, and READ.

FRIDAY, September 18.

The Senate entered on executive business.

Mr. CARROLL, on behalf of the committee appointed yesterday, reported as follows:

The committee, to whom was referred a message from the President of the United States of the 17th September, 1789, report:

That the signature of treaties with the Indian nations has ever been considered as a full completion thereof, and that such treaties have never been solemnly ratified by either of the contracting parties, as hath been commonly practised among the civilized nations of Europe: wherefore the committee are of opinion that the formal ratification of the treaty concluded at Fort Harmar on the 9th day of January, 1789, between Arthur St. Clair, Governor of the Western Territory, on the part of the United States, and the sachems and warriors of the Wyandot, Delaware, Ottawa, Chippewa, Pattiwattima, and Sac Nations, is not expedient or necessary; and that the resolve of the Senate of the 8th September, 1789, respecting the said treaty, authorizes the President of the United States to enjoin a due observance thereof.

TUESDAY, September 29.

The following communications from the President were received by Mr. Jay:

Gentlemen of the Senate:

His Most Christian Majesty, by a letter dated the 7th of June last, addressed to the President and members of the General Congress of the United States of North America, announces the much lamented death of his son, the Dauphin. The generous conduct of the French monarch and nation towards this country renders every event that may affect his or their prosperity interesting to us; and I shall take care to assure him of the sensibility with which the United States participate in the affliction which a loss so much to be regretted must have occasioned, both to him and to them.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

September 29.

Gentlemen of the Senate:

Having been yesterday informed by a joint committee of both Houses of Congress, that they had agreed to a recess, to commence this day, and to continue until the first Monday of January next, I take the earliest opportunity of acquainting you that, considering how long and laborious this session has been, and the reasons which, I presume, have produced this resolution, it does not appear to me expedient to recommend any measures to their consideration at present, or now to call your attention, gentlemen, to any of those matters in my department which require your advice and consent, and yet remain to be despatched.

GEO. WASHINGTON.

September 29, 1789.

A message from the House of Representatives informed the Senate that the House of Representatives had finished the business of the session, and were ready to adjourn, agreeably to the order of the two Houses of Congress.

The business of the session being brought to a close, the Vice President, agreeably to the resolve of the two Houses on the 26th instant, adjourned the Senate to the first Monday in January next, then to meet at the City Hall in New York.

FIRST CONGRESS

LIST OF SENATORS.

New Hampshire.--John Langdon, Paine Wingate.

Massachusetts.--Caleb Strong, Tristram Dalton.

Connecticut.--William S. Johnson, Oliver Ellsworth.

New York.--Rufus King, Philip Schuyler.

New Jersey.--William Paterson, Jonathan Elmer.

Pennsylvania.--William Maclay, Robert Morris.

Delaware.--Richard Bassett, George Reed.

Maryland.--Charles Carroll, John Henry.

Virginia.--Richard Henry Lee, William Grayson.

South Carolina.--Ralph Izard, Pierce Butler.

Georgia.--William Few, James Gunn.

North Carolina.[10]--Benjamin Hawkins, Samuel Johnston.

Rhode Island.[11]--Joseph Stanton, jr., Theodore Foster.

LIST OF REPRESENTATIVES.

New Hampshire.--Nicholas Gilman, Samuel Livermore, Abiel Foster.

Massachusetts.--George Thatcher, Fisher Ames, George Leonard, Elbridge Gerry, Jonathan Grout, Benjamin Goodhue, Theodore Sedgwick, George Partridge.

Connecticut.--Benjamin Huntington, Jonathan Trumbull, Jeremiah Wadsworth, Roger Sherman, Jonathan Sturges.

New York.--John Lawrence, Egbert Benson, William Floyd, Peter Sylvester, John Hathorn, Jeremiah Van Rensselaer.

New Jersey.--Elias Boudinot, James Schureman, Lambert Cadwalader, Thomas Sinnickson.

Pennsylvania.--Henry Wynkoop, Frederick Augustus Muhlenberg, Daniel Heister, Thomas Scott, George Clymer, Thomas Fitzsimons, Thomas Hartley, Peter Muhlenberg.

Delaware.--John Vining.

Maryland.--William Smith, George Gale, Daniel Carroll, Joshua Seney, Michael Jenifer Stone, Benjamin Contee.

Virginia.--Alexander White, James Madison, jr., John Page, Richard Bland Lee, Samuel Griffin, Andrew Moore, Josiah Parker, Theodorick Bland,[12] Isaac Coles, John Brown.

South Carolina.--Thomas Tudor Tucker, Edanus Burke, Daniel Huger, William Smith, Thomas Sumter.

Georgia.--Abraham Baldwin, James Jackson, George Mathews.

North Carolina.[13]--John Steele, Timothy Bloodworth, Hugh Williamson, John Baptist Ashe, John Sevier.

Rhode Island.[14]--Benjamin Bourn.

FIRST CONGRESS.--FIRST SESSION.

PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES

IN

THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WEDNESDAY, March 4, 1789.

This being the day fixed for the meeting of the new Congress, the following members of the House of Representatives appeared and took their seats, viz:[15]

From Massachusetts, GEORGE THATCHER, FISHER AMES, GEORGE LEONARD, and ELBRIDGE GERRY.

From Connecticut, BENJAMIN HUNTINGTON, JONATHAN TRUMBULL, and JEREMIAH WADSWORTH.

From Pennsylvania, FREDERICK AUGUSTUS MUHLENBERG, THOMAS HARTLEY, PETER MUHLENBERG, and DANIEL HEISTER.

From Virginia, ALEXANDER WHITE.

From South Carolina, THOMAS TUDOR TUCKER.

A quorum of the members not being present, the House adjourned until to-morrow at eleven o'clock.

THURSDAY, March 5.

Several other members attended, viz: from New Hampshire, NICHOLAS GILMAN; from Massachusetts, BENJAMIN GOODHUE; from Connecticut, ROGER SHERMAN and JONATHAN STURGES; and from Pennsylvania, HENRY WYNKOOP; and no other members arriving, a quorum not being present, the House adjourned, from day to day, until the 14th instant.

SATURDAY, March 14.

The following members took their seats, to wit: JAMES MADISON, junior, JOHN PAGE, and RICHARD BLAND LEE, from Virginia.

A quorum not being yet present, the House adjourned, from day to day, until the 17th instant.

TUESDAY, March 17.

SAMUEL GRIFFIN, from Virginia, took his seat.

WEDNESDAY, March 18.

ANDREW MOORE, from Virginia, took his seat.

No other member appearing, the House adjourned, from day to day, until the 23d instant.

MONDAY, March 23.

The following members appeared, to wit:--

From New Jersey, ELIAS BOUDINOT; and from Maryland, WILLIAM SMITH.

No additional member appeared on the 24th.

WEDNESDAY, March 25.

JONATHAN PARKER, from Virginia, appeared and took his seat.

No additional member arrived until the 30th instant.

MONDAY, March 30.

GEORGE GALE, from Maryland, and THEODORICK BLAND, from Virginia, appeared and took their seats.

No additional member on the 31st instant.

WEDNESDAY, April 1.

Two other members appeared, to wit: JAMES SCHUREMAN, from New Jersey, and THOMAS SCOTT, from Pennsylvania, who, forming a quorum of the whole body, it was, on motion,

Resolved, That this House will proceed to the choice of a Speaker by ballot.

The House accordingly proceeded to ballot for a Speaker, when it was found that a majority of the votes were in favor of FREDERICK AUGUSTUS MUHLENBERG, one of the Representatives from Pennsylvania. Whereupon Mr. MUHLENBERG was conducted to the chair, from whence he made his acknowledgments to the House for so distinguished an honor.

The House then proceeded in the same manner to the appointment of a Clerk, when it was found that Mr. JOHN BECKLEY was elected.

On motion,

Ordered, That the members do severally deliver in their credentials at the Clerk's table.

THURSDAY, April 2.

LAMBERT CADWALADER, from New Jersey, appeared and took his seat.

FRIDAY, April 3.

GEORGE CLYMER, from Pennsylvania, appeared and took his seat.

SATURDAY, April 4.

GEORGE PARTRIDGE, from Massachusetts, appeared and took his seat.

The House proceeded to the election of a doorkeeper, and assistant doorkeeper; when Gifford Dudley was chosen to the former, and Thomas Claxton to the latter office.

MONDAY, April 6.

DANIEL CARROLL, from Maryland, appeared and took his seat.

Ordered, That leave be given to bring in a bill to regulate the taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by the sixth article of the Constitution; and that Messrs. WHITE, MADISON, TRUMBULL, GILMAN, and CADWALADER, do prepare and bring in the same.

On motion,

Resolved, That the form of the oath to be taken by the members of this House, as required by the third clause of the sixth article of the Constitution of Government of the United States, be as followeth, to wit: "I, A B, a Representative of the United States in the Congress thereof, do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) in the presence of Almighty GOD, that I will support the Constitution of the United States. So help me God."

A message from the Senate, by Mr. ELLSWORTH.

Mr. SPEAKER: I am charged by the Senate to inform this House, that a quorum of the Senate is now formed; that a President is elected for the sole purpose of opening the certificates and counting the votes of the electors of the several States, in the choice of a President and Vice President of the United States; and that the Senate is now ready in the Senate Chamber, to proceed, in presence of this House, to discharge that duty. I have it also in further charge to inform this House that the Senate has appointed one of its members to sit at the Clerk's table to make a list of the votes as they shall be declared, submitting it to the wisdom of this House to appoint one or more of its members for the like purpose.

On motion,

Resolved, That Mr. Speaker, attended by the House, do now withdraw to the Senate Chamber, for the purpose expressed in the message from the Senate; and that Mr. PARKER and Mr. HEISTER be appointed on the part of this House, to sit at the Clerk's table with the member of the Senate, and make a list; of the votes, as the same shall be declared.

Mr. Speaker accordingly left the chair, and attended by the House, withdrew to the Senate Chamber, and after some time returned to the House.

Mr. Speaker resumed the chair.

Mr. PARKER and Mr. HEISTER then delivered in at the Clerk's table a list of the votes of the electors of the several States in the choice of a President and Vice President of the United States, as the same were declared by the President of the Senate, in the presence of the Senate and of this House, which was ordered to be entered on the Journal.[16]

WEDNESDAY, April 8.

Two other members, to wit: JNO. LAWRENCE, from New York, and THOMAS FITZSIMONS, from Pennsylvania, appeared and took their seats.

Duties on Imports.

On motion, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair.

Mr. MADISON.--I take the liberty, Mr. Chairman, at this early stage of the business, to introduce to the committee a subject, which appears to me to be of the greatest magnitude; a subject, sir, that requires our first attention, and our united exertions.

No gentleman here can be unacquainted with the numerous claims upon our justice; nor with the impotency which prevented the late Congress of the United States from carrying into effect the dictates of gratitude and policy.

The union, by the establishment of a more effective government, having recovered from the state of imbecility that heretofore prevented a performance of its duty, ought, in its first act, to revive those principles of honor and honesty that have too long lain dormant.

The deficiency in our Treasury has been too notorious to make it necessary for me to animadvert upon that subject. Let us content ourselves with endeavoring to remedy the evil. To do this a national revenue must be obtained; but the system must be such a one, that, while it secures the object of revenue, it shall not be oppressive to our constituents. Happy it is for us that such a system is within our power; for I apprehend that both these objects may be obtained from an impost on articles imported into the United States.

In pursuing this measure, I know that two points occur for our consideration. The first respects the general regulation of commerce; which, in my opinion, ought to be as free as the policy of nations will admit. The second relates to revenue alone; and this is the point I mean more particularly to bring into the view of the committee.

Not being at present possessed of sufficient materials for fully elucidating these points, and our situation admitting of no delay, I shall propose such articles of regulations only as are likely to occasion the least difficulty.

The propositions made on this subject by Congress in 1783, having received, generally, the approbation of the several States of the Union, in some form or other, seem well calculated to become the basis of the temporary system, which I wish the committee to adopt.[17] I am well aware that the changes which have taken place in many of the States, and in our public circumstances, since that period, will require, in some degree, a deviation from the scale of duties then affixed: nevertheless, for the sake of that expedition which is necessary, in order to embrace the spring importations, I should recommend a general adherence to the plan.

This, sir, with the addition of a clause or two on the subject of tonnage, I will now read, and, with leave, submit it to the committee, hoping it may meet their approbation, as an expedient rendered eligible by the urgent occasion there is for the speedy supplies of the federal treasury, and a speedy rescue of our trade from its present anarchy.

Resolved, As the opinion of this committee, that the following duties ought to be levied on goods, wares, and merchandise, imported into the United States, viz:

On rum, per gallon, ---- of a dollar; on all other spirituous liquors ----; on molasses ----; on Madeira wine ----; on all other wines ----; on common bohea teas per lb. ----; on all other teas ----; on pepper ----; on brown sugar ----; on loaf sugar ----; on all other sugars ----; on cocoa and coffee ----; on all other articles ---- per cent. on their value at the time and place of importation.

That there ought, moreover, to be levied on all vessels in which goods, wares, or merchandises shall be imported, the duties following, viz: On all vessels built within the United States, and belonging wholly to citizens thereof, at the rate of ---- per ton.

On all vessels belonging wholly to the subjects of Powers with whom the United States have formed treaties, or partly to the subjects of such Powers, and partly to citizens of the said States, at the rate of ----.

On all vessels belonging wholly or in part to the subjects of other Powers, at the rate of ----.[18]

Mr. BOUDINOT.--The necessity of adopting some measure, like the one proposed by the honorable gentleman from Virginia, is too apparent to need any argument in its support. The plan which he has submitted to the committee appears to be simple and sufficiently complete for the present purpose; I shall, therefore, for my own part, be content with it, and shall move you, sir, that the blanks be filled up in the manner they were recommended to be charged by Congress in 1783. My reason for this is, that those sums have been approved by the Legislatures of every State represented on this floor, and of consequence must have been agreeable to the sense of our constituents at that time; and, I believe, nothing since has intervened to give us reason to believe they have made an alteration in their sentiments.

Mr. WHITE.--I wish filling up the blanks may be deferred until the business is more matured; nor will this be attended with a loss of time, because the forms necessary to complete a bill will require so much as to give gentlemen leisure to consider the proper quantum of impost to be laid, as well on the enumerated articles as on the common mass of merchandise rated ad valorem; for, as was hinted by my colleague, something may have occurred to render an alteration in the sums recommended in 1783 in some degree necessary; and if so, time will be given to consider the subject with more attention in the progress of the bill, and no unnecessary delay can arise; wherefore, I move you, sir, that the committee now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

Mr. MADISON.--I do not consider it at this moment necessary to fill up the blanks, nor had I it in contemplation at the time I offered the propositions. I supposed that most of the gentlemen would wish time to think upon the principles generally, and upon the articles particularly; while others, who, from their situation and advantages in life, are more conversant on this subject, may be induced to turn their particular attention to a subject they are well able to do justice to, and to assist the committee with their knowledge and information; unless such gentlemen are now prepared and disposed to proceed in filling up the blanks, I shall second the motion for the committee's rising.

THURSDAY, April 9.

EGBERT BENSON, from New York, and ISAAC COLES, from Virginia, appeared and took their seats.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--The subject of the proposition laid before the committee by the honorable gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. MADISON,) will now, I presume, Mr. Chairman, recur for our deliberation. I imagine it to be of considerable importance, not only to the United States, but to every individual of the Union. The object of the revenue alone would place it in this situation, and in this light I mean now to consider it. If I am not mistaken, the honorable mover of the plan viewed it as a temporary system, particularly calculated to embrace the spring importations; therefore, in order to discover whether the mode laid before you is well calculated to answer this end, it will be proper to consider its operation. The plan consists of certain distinct propositions; one part is intended to lay a specific sum on enumerated articles, the other a certain per cent. ad valorem: perhaps simplifying the system may be productive of happy consequences, and it strikes me that confusion and perplexity will be best avoided by such a measure; hence, it may be proper to lay a duty at a certain rate per cent. on the value of all articles, without attempting an enumeration of any; because, if we attempt to specify every article, it will expose us to a question which must require more time than can be spared, to obtain the object that appears to be in the view of the committee. A question, I say, sir, will arise, whether the enumeration embraces every article that will bear a duty, and whether the duty to be affixed is the proper sum the article is able to bear. On this head, sir, I believe that the committee have not materials sufficient to form even the basis of the system, beside being wholly incompetent to determine the rate most advantageous to the article of revenue, and most agreeable to the interest and convenience of our constituents. Knowledge on these points can only be obtained by experience; but hitherto we have had none, at least of a general nature. The partial regulations made by the States, throw but little light on the subject, and its magnitude ought to induce us to use the greatest degree of caution.

A system of the nature which I hinted at, will, in my opinion, be not only less complex and difficult in its formation, but likewise easier and more certain in its operation; because the more simple a plan of revenue is, the easier it becomes understood and executed: and it is, sir, an earnest wish of mine, that all our acts should partake of this nature. Moreover, by adopting the plan I have mentioned, you will embrace the spring importation and give time for digesting and maturing one upon more perfect principles; and, as the proposed system is intended to be but a temporary one, that I esteem to be best which requires the least time to form it.

With great deference I have submitted these sentiments to the committee, as what occurred to me to be the better plan of the two; though, I must own, it is a subject on which I am not so fully informed as I wish to be, and therefore hope the indulgence of the committee in considering it.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--I observe, Mr. Chairman, by what the gentlemen have said, who have spoken on the subject before you, that the proposed plan of revenue is viewed by them as a temporary system, to be continued only until proper materials are brought forward and arranged in more perfect form. I confess, sir, that I carry my views on this subject much further; that I earnestly wish such a one which, in its operation, will be some way adequate to our present situation, as it respects our agriculture, our manufactures, and our commerce.

An honorable gentleman (Mr. LAWRENCE) has expressed an opinion that an enumeration of articles will operate to confuse the business. So far am I from seeing it in this point of view, that, on the contrary, I conceive it will tend to facilitate it. Does not every gentleman discover that, when a particular article is offered to the consideration of the committee, he will be better able to give his opinion upon it than on an aggregate question? because the partial and convenient impost laid on such article by individual States is more or less known to every member in the committee. It is also well known that the amount of such revenue is more accurately calculated and better to be relied on, because of the certainty of collection, less being left to the officers employed in bringing it forward to the public treasury. It being my opinion that an enumeration of articles will tend to clear away difficulties, I wish as many to be selected as possible; for this reason I have prepared myself with an additional number, which I wish subjoined to those already mentioned in the motion on your table; among these are some calculated to encourage the productions of our country, and protect our infant manufactures; besides others tending to operate as sumptuary restrictions upon articles which are often termed those of luxury. The amendment I mean to offer is in these words: I shall read it in my place, and, if I am seconded, hand it to you for the consideration of the committee.

Resolved, As the opinion of this committee, that the following duties ought to be laid on goods, wares, and merchandise imported into the United States, to wit:

[The articles enumerated for duty were beer, ale, and porter; beef, pork, butter, candles, cheese, soap, cider, boots, steel, cables, cordage, twine or pack thread, malt, nails, spikes, tacks, or brads; salt, tobacco, snuff, blank books, writing, printing, and wrapping paper; pasteboard, cabinet ware; buttons, saddles, gloves, hats, millinery, castings of iron, slit, or rolled iron; leather, shoes, slippers, and golo shoes; coach, chariot, and other four wheel carriages; chaise, solo, or other two wheel carriages; nutmegs, cinnamon, cloves, raisins, figs, currants, almonds.]

This motion was seconded by Mr. SCHUREMAN.

Mr. WHITE.--I shall not pretend to say that there ought not to be specific duties laid upon every one of the articles enumerated in the amendment just offered; but I am inclined to think, that entering so minutely into the detail, will consume too much of our time, and thereby lose us a greater sum than the additional impost on the last-mentioned articles will bring in; because there may be doubts whether many of them are capable of bearing an increased duty; but this, sir, is not the case with those mentioned in the motion of my colleague: for I believe it will be readily admitted on all sides, that such articles as rum, wines, and sugar, have the capacity of bearing an additional duty besides a per cent. ad valorem. His system appears to be simple, and its principles I conceive, are such as gentlemen are agreed upon, consequently a bill founded thereupon would pass this House in a few days; the operation of the law would commence early, and the treasury be furnished with money to answer the demands upon it. This law would continue until mature deliberation, ample discussion, and full information, enabled us to complete a perfect system of revenue: for, in order to charge specified articles of manufacture, so as to encourage our domestic ones, it will be necessary to examine the present state of each throughout the Union. This will certainly be a work of labor and time, and will perhaps require more of each than the committee have now in their power. Let us, therefore, act upon the principles which are admitted, and take in the most material and productive articles, leaving to a period of more leisure and information a plan to embrace the whole.

Mr. TUCKER.--In common with the other gentlemen on this floor, I consider the subject which engages our present deliberations as of very great importance as it relates to our agriculture, manufactures, and commerce; I also consider it of consequence that we should give full satisfaction to our constituents by our decision, be that whatever it may; and I think this most likely to be effected by establishing a permanent regulation, although in the interim, a temporary system may be expedient.

I have no objection, sir, to go so far into the matter as to pass a law to collect an impost ad valorem, whilst it is understood to be but a temporary system; and likewise to lay a duty on such enumerated articles of importation as have been heretofore considered as proper ones by the Congress of 1783. So far, sir, the matter may be plain to us, and we run no hazard of doing any thing which may give dissatisfaction to any State in the Union. The duties proposed by the Congress of 1783 were, I believe, five per cent. on the value of all goods imported, and an additional duty on a few enumerated articles.[19] This recommendation of Congress has been so universally received by the several States, that I think we run no risk of giving umbrage to any by adopting the plan; but the other articles which have just been offered, are, I apprehend, to many of us so novel, and, at the same time, so important, as to make it hard to determine the propriety of taxing them in a few hours, or even in a few days.

In order to preserve the peace and tranquillity of the Union, it will become necessary that mutual deference and accommodation should take place on subjects so important as the one I have first touched upon. And, in order that this may take place, it is proper that gentlemen deliver their sentiments with freedom and candor. I have done this in a manner which I conceived it my duty to do, and shall just repeat that I wish to confine the question to that part of the motion made by the honorable gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. MADISON,) which respects laying a general impost on the value of all goods imported, and the small enumeration which precedes it: if it is in contemplation to do otherwise, I shall be under the necessity of moving for a division of the question. If I should lose this, and a high tonnage duty be insisted on, I shall be obliged to vote against the measure altogether; when, if the business is conducted on principles of moderation, I shall give my vote for it to a certain degree.

Mr. HARTLEY.--If we consult the history of the ancient world, we shall see that they have thought proper, for a long time past, to give great encouragement to the establishment of manufactures, by laying such partial duties on the importation of foreign goods, as to give the home manufactures a considerable advantage in the price when brought to market. It is also well known to this committee, that there are many articles that will bear a higher duty than others, which are to remain in the common mass, and be taxed with a certain impost ad valorem. From this view of the subject I think it both politic and just that the fostering hand of the General Government should extend to all those manufactures which will tend to national utility. I am therefore sorry that gentlemen seem to fix their mind to so early a period as 1783; for we very well know our circumstances are much changed since that time: we had then but few manufactures among us, and the vast quantities of goods that flowed in upon us from Europe, at the conclusion of the war, rendered those few almost useless; since then we have been forced by necessity, and various other causes, to increase our domestic manufactures to such a degree as to be able to furnish some in sufficient quantity to answer the consumption of the whole Union, while others are daily growing into importance. Our stock of materials is, in many instances, equal to the greatest demand, and our artisans sufficient to work them up even for exportation. In these cases, I take it to be the policy of every enlightened nation to give their manufactures that degree of encouragement necessary to perfect them, without oppressing the other parts of the community; and under this encouragement, the industry of the manufacturer will be employed to add to the wealth of the nation.

Mr. MADISON.--From what has been suggested by the gentlemen that have spoken on the subject before us, I am led to apprehend we shall be under the necessity of travelling further into an investigation of principles than what I supposed would be necessary, or had in contemplation when I offered the propositions before you.

I am sensible that there is great weight in the observation that fell from the honorable gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. TUCKER,) that it will be necessary, on the one hand, to weigh and regard the sentiments of the gentlemen from the different parts of the United States; but, on the other hand, we must limit our consideration on this head, and, notwithstanding all the deference and respect we pay to those sentiments, we must consider the general interest of the Union; for this is as much every gentleman's duty to consider as is the local or State interest--and any system of impost that this committee may adopt must be founded on the principles of mutual concession.

Gentlemen will be pleased to recollect, that those parts of the Union which contribute more under one system than the other, are also those parts more thinly planted, and consequently stand most in need of national protection; therefore they will have less reason to complain of unequal burthens.

There is another consideration; the States that are most advanced in population, and ripe for manufactures, ought to have their particular interests attended to in some degree. While these States retained the power of making regulations of trade, they had the power to protect and cherish such institutions; by adopting the present constitution, they have thrown the exercise of this power into other hands: they must have done this with an expectation that those interests would not be neglected here.

In my opinion, it would be proper also for gentlemen to consider the means of encouraging the great staple of America, I mean agriculture; which I think may justly be styled the staple of the United States, from the spontaneous productions which nature furnishes, and the manifest advantage it has over every other object of emolument in this country. If we compare the cheapness of our land with that of other nations, we see so decided an advantage in that cheapness, as to have full confidence of being unrivalled. With respect to the object of manufactures, other countries may and do rival us; but we may be said to have a monopoly in agriculture; the possession of the soil, and the lowness of its price, give us as much a monopoly in this case, as any nation or other parts of the world have in the monopoly of any article whatever; but, with this advantage to us, that it cannot be shared nor injured by rivalship.

If my general principle is a good one, that commerce ought to be free, and labor and industry left at large to find its proper object, the only thing which remains will be to discover the exceptions that do not come within the rule I have laid down. I agree with the gentleman from Pennsylvania, that there are exceptions, important in themselves, and which claim the particular attention of the committee. Although the freedom of commerce would be advantageous to the world, yet, in some particulars, one nation might suffer to benefit others, and this ought to be for the general good of society.

The next exception that occurs, is one on which great stress is laid by some well informed men, and this with great plausibility. That each nation should have within itself the means of defence, independent of foreign supplies: that in whatever relates to the operations of war, no State ought to depend upon a precarious supply from any part of the world. There may be some truth in this remark, and therefore it is proper for legislative attention. I am, though, well persuaded that the reasoning on this subject has been carried too far. The difficulties we experienced a few years ago, of obtaining military supplies, ought not to furnish too much in favor of an establishment which would be difficult and expensive; because our national character is now established and recognized throughout the world, and the laws of war favor national exertion more than intestine commotion, so that there is good reason to believe that when it becomes necessary, we may obtain supplies from abroad as readily as any other nation whatsoever. I have mentioned this, because I think I see something among the enumerated articles that seems to favor such a policy.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--I believe that it will not be disputed, that the best and easiest way of supplying the public wants, is by raising a revenue on the importation of goods by way of impost, though the manner in which it should be done, I confess, is a subject on which I stand greatly in need of information. I should, therefore, most cordially comply with the request of the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. TUCKER,) in order to obtain time for consideration, and to wait the arrival of the absent gentlemen, in order that we may have that assistance which is to be derived from them. Did I consider the question on the present motion final, I should be at a loss how to act; but this, I take it, is not the case. I presume it is intended by the mover only to lay his motion on the table, with the original propositions open for debate and consideration, till the committee are possessed of sufficient information to proceed. I also confess, that, in general, I am in favor of specific duties on enumerated articles. I shall therefore vote for the amendment; but, in doing this, I shall not consider myself as bound to support the whole, nor, indeed, any particular article which, upon due consideration, I may deem either impolitic or unjust; for I cannot conceive, that, by adopting the amendment, we tie up our hands, or prevent future discussion. No, sir, that is not the case; and as I trust we all have the same object in view, namely, the public good of the United States, so I hope that a willing ear will be lent to every proposition likely to promote this end; nor do I doubt but gentlemen are mutually inclined to sacrifice local advantages for the accomplishment of this great purpose.

On motion of Mr. LEE, the committee rose and reported progress, and the House adjourned.

SATURDAY, April 11.

Mr. CLYMER submitted it to the consideration of the committee, how far it was best to bring propositions forward in this way. Not that he objected to this mode of encouraging manufactures and obtaining revenue, by combining the two objects in one bill. He was satisfied that a political necessity existed for both the one and the other, and it would not be amiss to do it in this way, but perhaps the business would be more speedily accomplished by entering upon it systematically.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--It appears to me that this business of raising revenue points out two questions, of great importance, demanding much information. The first is, what articles are proper objects of taxation, and the probable amount of revenue from each. The second is, the proper mode of collecting the money arising from this fund, when the object and its amount are ascertained. There are three sources from which we may gain information on the first question, namely, from the revenue laws of the different States, for I believe a partial revenue has been raised almost in every State by an impost. The second source of information, and a very natural one, is the great body of merchants spread throughout the United States; this is a very respectable and well-informed body of our fellow-citizens, and great deference ought to be paid to their communications--they are in a peculiar situation under the present constitution, to which they are generally esteemed sincere friends--they are also more immediately interested in the event of the proposed measure, than any other class of men. To this Government they look for protection and support, and for such regulations as are beneficial to commerce; for these reasons, I think they deserve our confidence, and we ought to obtain from them such information as will enable the Congress to proceed to a general permanent system on more solid principles.

There are gentlemen on this floor well calculated to represent the mercantile interests of this country, and in whose integrity and abilities I have the highest confidence; but it is the duty of the members of this body to see that the principles upon which we act, are those calculated to promote the general good, and not confined to the local interests of a few individuals, or even individual States, so that they will decline trusting alone to this species of information, when another is attainable.

Mr. FITZSIMONS thought it best to make the system as perfect as possible before the committee determined its duration.

Mr. MADISON, that the subject which was under consideration divided itself, as had been observed by the honorable gentlemen from Jersey, into two parts; and hence he concluded that they might very properly be provided for by two separate bills; and while the Committee of the Whole are selecting articles and taxing them, another committee can be employed in devising the mode of collection. This method he thought more likely to reconcile the opinions of the committee than any he had heard suggested.

Mr. SHERMAN gave it as his opinion, that in fixing the duties on particular articles, if they could not ascertain the exact quantum, it would be better to run the risk of erring in setting low duties than high ones, because it was less injurious to commerce to raise them than to lower them; but nevertheless, he was for laying on duties which some gentlemen might think high, as he thought it better to derive revenue from impost than from direct taxation, or any other method in their power. He moved that the article of rum should be charged with fifteen cents per gallon--he used the term cents because it was a denomination of national coin, fixed by the late Congress, ten of which make a dime and ten dimes one dollar.

Mr. SMITH was apprehensive fifteen cents would be too high, and therefore moved ten cents, which he thought would raise more revenue than the other.

Mr. MADISON advised and moved for the rising of the committee, in order to give gentlemen time to make up their minds respecting the quantum of impost to be laid on each article.

MONDAY, April 13.

WILLIAM FLOYD, from New York; THOMAS SINNICKSON, from New Jersey; JOSHUA SENEY, from Maryland; EDANUS BURKE, DANIEL HUGER, and WILLIAM SMITH, from South Carolina, appeared and took their seats.

On motion,

Ordered, That Mr. BENSON, Mr. PETER MUHLENBERG, and Mr. GRIFFIN, be a committee to consider of and report to the House respecting the ceremonial of receiving the President, and that they be authorized to confer with a committee of the Senate for the purpose.

TUESDAY, April 14.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union; Mr. PAGE in the chair.

Mr. BLAND, from Virginia, thought the committee not prepared to enter on the business of impost in the accurate manner which the form of the propositions seemed to imply. No gentleman on the floor could be more desirous than he was to go into the measure of a permanent system; but he could not agree to proceed at this time, for want of information. When he looked at the list of articles, he saw some calculated to give encouragement to home manufactures. This might be in some degree proper; but it was a well-known fact, that the manufacturing arts in America were only in their infancy, and far from being able to answer the demands of the country; then certainly you lay a tax upon the whole community, in order to put the money in the pockets of a few, whenever you burthen the importation with a heavy impost.

Mr. SCOTT.--The subject before us naturally divides itself into two heads. First, what article shall be the subject of a particular tax, and what shall remain in the common mass liable to an impost ad valorem? The second, what the sum is that is proper for the article we select? For both these points will be necessary, because it can hardly be supposed that all articles can be enumerated, while some certainly ought. This being the case, it leads us to inquire what rule or principle shall be laid down in order to make a proper discrimination; for surely some reason should be assigned for this distinction. I presume the particular article which is to be subjected to an extraordinary duty must either come at so cheap a rate, according to its intrinsic value, as to bear a greater impost without being unreasonably expensive, or it must be one which we do not stand in need of at all, and only used for the purposes of luxury. If an article does not come within one of these descriptions, I see no reason why it should be taxed in an extraordinary manner.

On motion of Mr. GALE, the word rum was changed into distilled spirits of Jamaica proof.

Mr. LAWRENCE proposed to lay twelve cents on this article, saying, I believe, Mr. Chairman, it will be necessary to consider, when we are about to lay a duty on any article, how far it is likely to be collected, especially if our main object is to obtain revenue by our impost. I trust it does not require much illustration to prove to the satisfaction of the committee, that if you lay your duties too high, it will be a temptation to smuggling; for, in the proportion which that sum bears to the value of the article, will be the risk run in every attempt to introduce it in a clandestine manner, and, if this temptation is made too strong, the article will furnish no revenue. I believe, if the committee shall impose a duty of fifteen cents, as proposed by the gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. SHERMAN,) it will be so strong a temptation for smuggling, that we shall lose our revenue altogether, or be compelled to use a mode of collection probably different from what we have been accustomed to--a mode so expensive as to absorb the whole produce of the tax.

I wish to lay as large a sum on this article as good policy may deem expedient; it is an article of great consumption, and though it cannot be reckoned a necessary of life, yet it is in such general use, that it may be expected to pay a very considerable sum into your treasury, when others may not with so much certainty be relied upon. But, when we consider the relative proportion of the first cost of it, and the fifteen cents duty, we shall find it about one third. This, I cannot help thinking, is too high, as the risk of a total loss may be ventured in order to save so great a sum; it is surely a great temptation, and I dread its consequences on more accounts than one.

Mr. MADISON.--I would tax this article with as high a duty as can be collected, and I am sure, if we judge from what we have heard and seen in the several parts of the Union, that it is the sense of the people of America that this article should have a duty imposed upon it weighty indeed. The duty proposed by the gentleman from New York (Mr. LAWRENCE) very little exceeds what is laid in this State, and very little what is laid in some other States, while some have thought it expedient to impose an excise superior. The question then is, whether the highest sum can be collected? I am of opinion that higher duties may generally be collected under the government of the Union than could be under that of the particular States, because it has been the policy of some, not only to decline going hand in hand together, but actually to oppose regulations made in a neighboring State. Being persuaded, likewise, that the highest sum will not exceed the power of the law to enforce the collection of, I shall vote for it.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--I am in favor of taxing this article as high as there is a probability of collecting the duty. I think our doing so will answer two or three good purposes. The present object of the committee is to raise a revenue, and no article on the list before you is more likely to be productive than this one; but a high duty may also discourage the use of ardent spirits; if not, it may discourage the West Indies from turning their molasses into rum. This being the case, they have no other market for molasses than this country, and our own distilleries, with the advantages arising therefrom, will be able to rival them in the manufacture of that article; so far it may tend to the benefit of the country. I conceive it might be proper, on these accounts, to lay a much higher duty than has been proposed, were it not for the considerations mentioned by the gentleman from New York, that we run a risk of losing all by grasping at too much.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--The sum proposed is higher than the duty collected in this State, which is about eight cents; I fear, therefore, that it cannot be collected. If we are to reason and act as moralists on this point, I am certain it is the wish of every member to prevent the use of ardent spirits altogether, for their influence on the morals of the people is of the most pernicious kind. Nor does the mischief terminate here, as I apprehend it is equally destructive to the health; but we are not to deliberate and determine on this subject as moralists, but as politicians, and endeavor to draw (if I may use the expression) from the vices of mankind, that revenue which our citizens must, in one form or other, contribute. The question is, what shall be the duty on any particular article? To accomplish this purpose, we must determine by the circumstances of that article. Now, if we lay a high duty on Jamaica rum, it is supposed it will prevent the consumption; but then the purpose we have in view is frustrated, either because we cannot collect the tax, or the object of it is no longer imported. The consequence in this latter case would be, that the morals of our citizens are not impaired; yet it does not appear to me that this consequence would certainly flow from a system of high duties. I rather fear it would lead no further than to set men on schemes to evade the duty; and none of us are ignorant of the ingenuity and invention which can be exercised, when interest prompts mankind to an evasion of the law. We know the situation of the different States; the coast disposed by its prodigious extent to favor every means of illicit trade. A cargo of rum could be landed in Jersey, and the whole, reshipped in small vessels, might soon be brought into this city. If this should be the effect of our law, we have no other way to correct the operation, but by adopting a mode of collection odious to all, on account of the numerous train of officers it would require in its execution. But there would also be a danger of vessels running into creeks and small inlets, for the purpose of landing their cargoes, as well as on the sea-shore. Hence a necessity would arise of employing a number of vessels to check and correct such abuses, and the probable event would be, that all the impost collected would go to defray the expense of getting it into the treasury.

The committee now agreed to tax ardent spirits, of Jamaica proof, fifteen cents; and all other spirituous liquors twelve cents.

On filling up the blank on molasses:

Mr. MADISON.--It is agreed, I presume, that spirits of every kind are proper objects of taxation, but whether we shall tax spirits in the case before us, or whether we shall tax the article from which it comes, is a question worthy of the consideration of the committee for several reasons. I believe it will be best to lay our hands on the duty, by charging this article on its importation, to avoid a more disagreeable measure. I would, therefore, lay such a duty on molasses, as is proportioned to what we have affixed upon rum, making an allowance in favor of our own manufacture. I think eight cents per gallon will allow a sufficient advantage to them, but of this I am not positive, and, therefore, shall not pertinaciously adhere to that sum, if it be thought too high; but I presume I am right in the principle upon which I contend, that we ought to collect the duty on the importation of molasses, in preference to any other way.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--I think the duty on this article depends, in a great measure, upon what has been already agreed to. If the tax of West India and country rum is not well proportioned, it may be destructive of the end we have in contemplation. If, agreeably to the idea of the gentleman from New York, we affix a low duty, a great deal more rum will, in all probability, be distilled and used, than heretofore; of course, it will effectually rival the Jamaica rum, and the Union will lose the revenue which we calculate upon. Eight cents, I apprehend, is as well proportioned to the other taxes as can be devised.

Mr. GOODHUE considered molasses as a raw material, essentially requisite for the well-being of a very extensive and valuable manufacture. It ought likewise to be considered (as was truly stated) a necessary of life. In the Eastern States it entered into the diet of the poorer classes of people, who were, from the decay of trade and other adventitious circumstances, totally unable to sustain such a weight as a tax of eight cents would be upon them. Moreover, the tax was upon particular States as well as individuals, for it was a fact of public notoriety, that Massachusetts imported more molasses than all the other States together. She imports from 30,000 to 40,000 hogsheads annually. He would make one observation more. It had been the policy of Great Britain, as he well remembered, to encumber and depress the distillation of molasses. To do this, at one time they laid a duty of three pence sterling per gallon. It was conceived to be an oppressive measure, but it had little other effect than to cause heart-burnings and enmity. It produced no revenue, and the Parliament were forced to reduce the duty to a penny. From experience, therefore, as well as from the arguments before urged, he was inclined to believe that the committee would be satisfied with fixing a lower sum. He could not consent to allow more than two cents.

Mr. THATCHER.--It appears to me, that for the want of a certain and fixed principle to act upon, there is a great danger of making some improper establishments. It is for this reason that I wish not to hurry on the business with so much precipitation. Did gentlemen consider, when they agreed to a high duty on ardent spirits, that it would be a pretext for increasing the duties on a necessary of life. I presume a principal reason why a high tax on spirits was admitted, was in order to discourage the use of it among ourselves. If this was the intention of the committee, I have no objection to the burthen; but, even here, I fear difficulties will arise. Did we judiciously examine whether the spirit of the law accords with the habits and manners of the people? and did we assure ourselves of the full execution of the law? If we did not, the act becomes impolitic, because a law which cannot be executed tends to make the Government less respectable.

Mr. AMES.--I have not had the advantage of hearing all the arguments in support of the eight cents proposed; but those I have heard I am not satisfied with. The principles on which this tax is founded, I understand to be this: that it is an article of luxury, and of pretty general consumption, so that the duty is expected to fall equally upon all; but that it will not operate in this manner, I think is easily demonstrable. Can a duty of fifty per cent. ad valorem, paid, as it were, in an exclusive manner, by the State of Massachusetts, be equal? No, sir. But taking it as a part of the general system, can it be equal unless a proportionable duty, equal to fifty per cent., is laid upon articles consumed in other parts of the Union? No, sir; and is it in the contemplation of gentlemen to lay duties so high as to produce this equality? I trust it is not; because such duties could never be collected. Is not, therefore, eight cents disproportioned to the rates fixed, or intended to be imposed on other articles? I think it is; and, if to these considerations we add what has been said before, relative to its being a raw material important to a considerable manufacture, we cannot hesitate to reject it.

However gentlemen may think the use of this article dangerous to the health and morals of our fellow-citizens--I would also beg them to consider, that it is no more so than every other kind of spirituous liquors; that it will grow into an article for exportation; and although I admit we could export it even encumbered with the duty proposed, yet by it we run the risk of having the manufacture totally ruined, for it can hardly now stand a competition at home with the West India rum, much less can it do so abroad. If the manufacturers of country rum are to be devoted to certain ruin, to mend the morals of others, let them be admonished that they prepare themselves for the event: but in the way we are about to take, destruction comes on so sudden, they have not time to seek refuge in any other employment whatsoever. If their situation will not operate to restrain the hand of iron policy, consider how immediately they are connected with the most essential interests of the Union, and then let me ask if it is wise, if it is reconcilable to national prudence, to take measures subversive of your very existence? For I do contend, that the very existence of the Eastern States depends upon the encouragement of their navigation and fishery, which receive a deadly wound by an excessive impost on the article before us.

I would concur in any measure calculated to exterminate the poison covered under the form of ardent spirits, from our country; but it should be without violence. I approve as much as any gentleman the introduction of malt liquors, believing them not so pernicious as the one in common use; but before we restrain ourselves to the use of them, we ought to be certain that we have malt and hops, as well as brew-houses for the manufacture. Now, I deny that we have these in sufficient abundance to the eastward; but if we had, they are not taxed. Then why should the poor of Massachusetts be taxed for the beverage they use of spruce, molasses and water? It surely is unreasonable. I hope gentlemen will not adopt the motion for eight cents until they are furnished with some better evidence of its propriety and policy than any that has yet been given, or as I suspect that can be given.

Mr. FITZSIMONS was pleased that gentlemen went so fully into a discussion of a subject which they conceived of great importance, but he begged them not to lose sight of an observation that had already been made, that whenever a particular duty was supposed to bear hard on any one member of the Union, it ought to be regarded as a part only of a system bearing equally upon all. He was a friend to commerce, it was his particular profession, and what he had principally devoted his attention to; and therefore it might justly be imagined he was unwilling to fetter it with restraints; but as a member of this body, he considered it proper to forego a pertinacious adhesion to that system, when its interest came in competition with the general welfare.

The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Ames) has represented the proposed regulation as tending eventually to the ruin of the commerce, fisheries, and manufactures of that State. I do not believe (added he) such a consequence would result from a duty of eight cents on a gallon of molasses; if I did, I would be one of the last to advocate the measure; but to understand this circumstance more fully, let us proceed to an inquiry of the ground on which we stand. The State of Massachusetts imports a greater proportion of this article than any other in the Union; she will have therefore (say the opponents of the measure) to pay exclusively all the impost upon it. Let us examine this. Some part of the molasses is consumed in the substance, but all the remainder is distilled: this must either be consumed in the State, or exported from it; in the latter case, I would propose that all the rum shipped to foreign nations should draw back the duties it had paid as molasses. This would obviate all that was said relative to the competition between this State and other nations at a foreign market. As to what is exported, but consumed in some other parts of the United States, it is but proper that a duty should be paid, and although it may be advanced in the first instance by the people of Massachusetts, yet it will be ultimately paid by the consumers in other parts.

What is consumed within the State itself, gentlemen surely do not mean to have excluded from a duty. If they consume more country rum than West India, they pay a less duty than those States which consume a greater proportion of the latter. As to what is used in its raw, unmanufactured state, it will be sufficient to observe, that as it is generally a substitute for sugar, the consumers will therefore avoid the tax on that article, and pay it on the other. In Pennsylvania they mostly use sugar; now, if the people there pay a tax on that article, it is but distributive justice that the people of Massachusetts pay one on the article they use for the same purpose.

Mr. GOODHUE.--Fifteen cents, the sum laid on Jamaica spirits, is about one-third part of its value; now eight cents on molasses is considerably more: the former is an article of luxury, as was observed when it was under consideration, therefore that duty might not be improper; but the latter cannot be said to partake of that quality in the substance, and when manufactured into rum, it is no more a luxury than Jamaica spirits. I cannot see, therefore, why molasses ought to be taxed forty or fifty per cent. when the other pays but thirty-three. Surely the substance ought not to pay at this rate--then what good reason can be offered for the measure?

Mr. BOUDINOT had attended to the arguments of the gentlemen on both sides of the question, and was led to believe the proportion was not properly observed. By the resolution of Congress in 1783, the molasses was fixed upon due consideration at one penny, and West India rum at fourpence. The proposed proportion was two-thirds of what is charged on West India rum. He thought this too high, as it would be an encumbrance on a considerable manufacture; six cents were therefore a more equitable rate than eight cents were; he believed also, that it was as much as the article would bear, especially if it was considered that the whole of the article was not manufactured into rum, but a large proportion consumed in substance. This might also be near what is intended to be charged on sugar; by fixing it at this rate, the necessity of lowering the duty at some future day would be avoided, which he thought an object worthy of the committee's consideration.

Mr. BOUDINOT wished the gentleman to consider the difference in the price; if he did that, he would allow it to be reduced to six cents; if this principle could now be fixed, it would carry them through the whole.

Mr. PARTRIDGE allowed, if all the molasses was distilled into rum, that a small duty might be proper; but when it was considered as an article of sustenance to the poor, and as a requisite to the support of the fisheries and navigation, he hoped the committee would allow but a very small one indeed. He wished it was possible to discriminate between what was manufactured into rum, and what was consumed in the raw state, because a higher duty might be collected in the former case than in the latter.

Mr. FITZSIMONS stated, that there were 327,000 gallons of rum imported into Pennsylvania in 1785, which would tend to show how great a part was consumed by the citizens of the Union; a demand in one State so great as this, proved how likely it was for New England rum to rival the West India. He thought the prices of the two articles gave the country rum a very considerable advantage, and therefore a duty of seven cents could not be very injurious to the manufacture.

The question was put on seven cents and lost.

And it was agreed to fill the blank with six cents.

On filling up the blank on Madeira wine,

Mr. SHERMAN moved fifteen cents.

Mr. GILMAN moved twenty cents, and

Mr. HARTLEY moved thirty cents, in order (as he observed) to make it correspond with the rate per cent. on the value; as the principle of proportion seemed to be admitted by the committee.

Mr. SHERMAN said, it appeared to him to be pretty well proportioned; because those who accustomed themselves to drink wine, consumed two or three times as much as those who used spirits, and consequently paid a due proportion.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--I shall move you, sir, that the blank be filled with fifty cents. I observed some gentlemen, in their arguments on the last article, laid great stress upon the impropriety of taxing the necessaries of life that were principally consumed by the poorer class of citizens. I do not think any of the members of this committee consider the article of Madeira wine a necessary of life, at least to those whose incomes are only sufficient for a temperate subsistence; therefore no objection of this kind can be made on the present occasion. The propriety of a high tax on wines, I apprehend, is self-evident, whether we consider the price of the article, or the ability of the people to pay who consume it. The value of a pipe of Madeira wine, I believe, is about two hundred dollars, a hogshead of rum is worth about forty dollars. The ability of those who consume the one and the other are, I suppose, in nearly the same ratio. I do not pretend to know what are the intentions of gentlemen on this subject, but my wish is, to raise so considerable a revenue from imposts as to render it unnecessary to apply to any other mode. If this be the wish of the committee also, they will be inclined to raise a great part of it from the consumption of those people who are best able to pay, among whom we may, with great propriety, reckon the consumers of Madeira wine.

Mr. P. MUHLENBERG thought his colleague's observations were very judicious, and said they met exactly his ideas; he therefore seconded the motion for fifty cents.

Mr. BLAND.--I am not against laying any sum on this article which there is a probability of collecting; but I am afraid we are running wild in the business, and although we appear to be in search of revenue, we are pursuing a track that will lead us wide of our mark. I am really suspicious, if we lay a duty of fifty cents upon Madeira wine, we shall not have a single gallon entered in any port of the United States, and we shall fully verify to the world the truth of an old maxim, that two and two, in finance, do not make four. I would therefore suggest to the committee, the propriety of considering well, whether they can, or cannot, collect the high duty proposed. If they are well convinced that it can be done, and will satisfy me only that there is a probability of its being the case, I shall cheerfully concur in the motion; but at present, I am of opinion we shall not be able to obtain any revenue whatsoever if the tax is laid so high.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--I agree entirely with the principle of laying duties according to their relative value, and hope the committee will keep up the line of proportion as near as possible. It is only in the application of this principle on the present occasion, that I differ with the honorable gentleman from Pennsylvania, for whose opinions I have the highest respect. I confess, too, that he is much better able to ascertain the price of foreign articles than I am; but I believe, with regard to this one of Madeira wine, I have it in my power to ascertain it pretty well. I take it, that a pipe of wine usually costs at Madeira from twenty-five to thirty pounds sterling; but then I would wish the committee to take into consideration that this wine is paid for there in our own produce at a very advantageous rate, which reduces the nominal sterling sum down in value to a like sum of our currency. I therefore look upon it, that we may calculate the cost of a gallon of Madeira wine at one dollar; for I cannot conceive that any gentleman entertains an idea of taxing the risk the merchant runs in importing the wine, or the increased value it obtains during the time it takes to ripen for sale. In laying our duties we ought to apportion it to the value of the article at the time and place of importation, without taking advantage of such adventitious circumstances. Beside, there is a considerable loss attends keeping Madeira. The storage is no inconsiderable expense, and the evaporation is an actual loss in quantity, which the merchant is obliged to replace by filling up the cask. Under these considerations, I think it may be admitted, that twenty or twenty-five cents per gallon is a sufficient tax. Moreover, it may be easily demonstrated, that such a duty would be more productive than fifty cents; because it would be with greater certainty collected. There is another reason that induces me to think twenty cents more proper; fifty cents for a gallon of wine is a large sum for a merchant to lay down in duties; it must abridge his mercantile operations, and consequently tend to discourage the Madeira trade, which, in my humble opinion, is one of the most advantageous America has left to her, from the selfish policy that actuates some foreign Powers; therefore we ought not to burthen it to so great a degree as the proposed duty seems to have in contemplation.

Mr. FITZSIMONS withdrew his motion for fifty cents, and moved thirty-three and one-third cents.

The question was put upon thirty-three and one-third cents as the highest sum, and agreed to, being twenty-one votes for it, and nineteen against it.

The next article "on all other wines," presented itself in order for the consideration of the committee.

Mr. HEISTER observed, there were a great variety of wines included in that general expression, the prices of which were very different; some worth even more than Madeira, and others less; he submitted, therefore, to the committee the propriety of discriminating and taxing them according to their value.

Mr. BOUDINOT acquiesced in the remark.

Mr. FITZSIMONS did not think it worth while, at this time, to engage the committee in making such a discrimination. The rich wines were imported in no very considerable quantities, and if the duty was laid pretty high, it would tend to exclude the most inferior and low wines from being introduced.

It was thereupon agreed to lay twenty cents on all other wines.

The next article on the list was "bohea tea," on which

Mr. FITZSIMONS observed, that he meant this article not only as a revenue, but as a regulation of a commerce highly advantageous to the United States. The merchants of this country have, from a variety of circumstances, and finding their trade restrained and embarrassed, been under the necessity of exploring channels to which they were heretofore unaccustomed. At length they have succeeded in discovering one that bids fair to increase our national importance and prosperity, while at the same time it is lucrative to the persons engaged in its prosecution. I mean, sir, the trade to China and the East Indies. I have no doubt but what it will receive the encouragement of the Federal Government for some time to come. There is scarcely any direct intercourse of this nature, but what requires some assistance in the beginning; it is peculiarly necessary in our case, from the jealousy subsisting in Europe of this infant branch of commerce. It has been thought proper, under some of the State governments, to foster and protect a direct communication with India. I hope the Government of the United States has an equal disposition to give this trade their encouragement.

I wish, therefore, the committee would pass over the article for the present, and permit it to come in at another place in the list, where I mean to move a discrimination in the duty on teas, according as they are imported, directly from China in our own ships, or in any ships from Europe.

The articles of teas and pepper were passed over for the present.

Mr. BOUDINOT proposed one cent per pound on sugar.

Two cents were afterwards proposed, when

Mr. FITZSIMONS remarked, that one gallon of molasses weighed eight pounds; that at six cents it did not pay a cent per pound; could it, therefore, be called anywise equal to such a tax on sugar? Moreover, sugar is an article of as general consumption as molasses, and when it is of this inferior quality, it enters as much or more into the consumption of the poor as the other, while, at the same time, molasses will sweeten more, according to its weight, than even the best sugar; from which considerations, I think gentlemen will be satisfied by putting it on an equality with molasses; therefore I do not oppose the one cent.

On the question, the committee agreed to tax it but one cent per pound, and loaf sugar three cents per pound. All other sugars one and a half cent per pound. On coffee two and a half cents per pound.

On motion of Mr. BLAND, the committee rose and reported progress. Adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, April 15.

A petition of David Ramsay, of the State of South Carolina, was presented to the House and read, setting forth that Mr. William Smith, a member returned to serve in this House as one of the representatives for the State of South Carolina, was, at the time of his election, ineligible thereto, and came within the disqualification of the third paragraph of the constitution, which declares, "that no person shall be a representative who shall not have been seven years a citizen of the United States," and praying that these allegations may be inquired by the House.

Referred to the Committee on Elections.

Mr. BENSON, from the committee to whom it was referred to consider of and report to the House respecting the ceremonial of receiving the President, and to whom was also referred a letter from the Chairman of a Committee of the Senate to the SPEAKER, communicating an instruction from that House to a committee thereof, to report if any, and what, arrangements are necessary for the reception of the President, made the following report:

"That Mr. Osgood, the proprietor of the house lately occupied by the President of Congress, be requested to put the same, and the furniture therein, in proper condition for the residence and use of the President of the United States, to provide for his temporary accommodation.

"That it will be most eligible, in the first instance, that a committee of three members from the Senate, and five from the House of Representatives, to be appointed by the Houses respectively, to attend to receive the President at such place as he shall embark from New Jersey for this city, and conduct him without form to the house lately occupied by the President of Congress, and that at such time thereafter, as the President shall signify it will be convenient for him, he be formally received by both Houses.

"That a committee of two members from the Senate, and three members from the House of Representatives, to be appointed by the Houses respectively, wait on the Vice President of the United States, as soon as he shall come to this city, and, in the name of the Congress of the United States, congratulate him on his arrival."

And a committee of five was balloted for and chosen accordingly, for the purpose of waiting on the President.

Another committee of three was appointed to wait on the Vice President.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair; the question being on inserting, in the list of dutiable articles, beer, ale, and porter--

Mr. FITZSIMONS meant to make an alteration in this article, by distinguishing beer, ale, and porter, imported in casks, from what was imported in bottles. He thought this manufacture one highly deserving of encouragement. If the morals of the people were to be improved by what entered into their diet, it would be prudent in the national Legislature to encourage the manufacture of malt liquors. The small protecting duties laid in Pennsylvania had a great effect towards the establishment of breweries; they no longer imported this article, but, on the contrary, exported considerable quantities, and, in two or three years, with the fostering aid of Government, would be able to furnish enough for the whole consumption of the United States. He moved nine cents per gallon.

Mr. LAWRENCE seconded the motion. He would have this duty so high as to give a decided preference to American beer; it would tend also to encourage agriculture, because the malt and hops consumed in the manufacture were the produce of our own grounds.

Mr. SMITH (of Maryland) was opposed to such high duties as seemed to be in the contemplation of some members of the committee. He thought enough might be raised if the tax was lowered. He formed this opinion from some calculations he had made with respect to the imports at Baltimore. He stated them to amount for the last year, at the rate now proposed, to £258,163; to this, if he added five other districts in Maryland, the probable amount of which, on the same principle, would be £185,537; then, these two sums multiplied by twelve, the supposed proportion that Maryland ought to bear of the national debt, would produce £5,324,400, a sum exceeding very considerably what the wants of the Union required.

Mr. GALE thought a duty of nine cents would operate as a prohibition upon the importation of beer and porter. He remarked the advantages which America possessed in growing malt and hops for the manufacture of these articles. In addition to this, the risk and expense of bringing it from Europe was to be considered. Upon the whole, he concluded so high a duty as nine cents would give the brewers here a monopoly, defeat the purpose of obtaining revenue, enhance the price to the consumer, and thereby establish the use of spirituous liquors. For these considerations he was against that sum.

Mr. SINNICKSON declared himself a friend to this manufacture, and thought if the duty was laid high enough to effect a prohibition, the manufacture would increase, and, of consequence, the price be lessened. He considered it of importance, inasmuch as the materials were produced in the country, and tended to advance the agricultural interest.

Mr. MADISON moved to lay an impost of eight cents on all beer imported. He did not think this sum would give a monopoly, but hoped it would be such an encouragement as to induce the manufacture to take deep root in every State in the Union; in this case, it would produce the collateral good hinted at by the gentleman from New Jersey, which, in his opinion, was an object well worthy of being attended to. He observed, that, in the State of New York, the article paid a duty equal to six cents on importation, and if brought in foreign vessels, it amounted to eight cents; and yet quantities of it were still imported, which proved that eight cents would not amount to a prohibition.

The committee agreed hereupon to charge it at eight cents.

On all beer, ale, or porter, imported in bottles, per dozen, twenty-five cents. Agreed to without debate.

On every barrel of beef it was moved to lay a duty of a dollar per barrel.

Mr. BLAND thought that very little revenue was likely to be collected on this article, let the duty be more or less; and as it was to be had in sufficient quantities within the United States, perhaps a tax amounting to a prohibition would be proper.

Mr. THATCHER admitted that there was beef enough to be got in every part of the country, but it was fresh beef. Some States, from local circumstances, were unable to salt and preserve it, therefore a tax on this article would operate as a partial tax upon those States. If there is a sufficient quantity in the other States to answer their own consumption, they will feel no part of the burthen; but it appeared unnecessary to him to lay this restriction, because he found some States capable of exporting beef on terms as reasonably low as any other country could, and it could not, therefore, be contended for as a requisite encouragement to this branch of the agricultural interest.

Mr. GOODHUE did not contend that it was necessary to lay a particular duty on beef, although it was among the enumerated articles admitted by the committee. He was satisfied of the fact, that meat could be put up here cheaper than in Europe, and afforded at a less price, so there was little to apprehend from rivalship.

Mr. MADISON thought that almost every State in the Union had more of this article than was necessary for its own consumption, and consequently there was no danger of its being imported, unless the quality of the foreign beef was superior. He would not object to gentlemen gratifying themselves with this meat, especially as the consumption was neither so great nor general as to affect the revenue, and therefore he judged it might be struck out.

Mr. TUCKER thought with the gentleman from Virginia, that the regulation was unnecessary, and that it would be better to throw it into the common mass, taxable at a certain rate per cent. He therefore moved to have it struck out.

Upon these considerations the articles of beef, pork, and butter, were all struck out.

Mr. FITZSIMONS moved to lay a duty of two cents on all candles of tallow per pound.

Mr. TUCKER observed, that some States were under the necessity of importing considerable quantities of this article also, while others had enough, and more than enough, for their own consumption, therefore the burthen would be partially borne by such States. As the committee had just rejected some articles upon this principle, he would move that this be struck out likewise.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--I am not for striking out, sir. Every article imported into the State that gentleman represents, from which revenue is to be raised, he moves to have struck out; but I wish the committee to consider a moment before they join in sentiments with him. The manufacture of candles is an important manufacture, and far advanced towards perfection. I have no doubt but, in a few years, we shall be able to furnish sufficient to supply the consumption of every part of the continent. In Pennsylvania we have a duty of two pence per pound, and under the operation of this small encouragement the manufacture has gained considerable strength. We no longer import candles from Ireland or England, of whom a few years ago we took considerable quantities; the necessity of continuing those encouragements which the State Legislatures have deemed proper, exists in a considerable degree; therefore it will be politic in the Government of the United States to continue such duties till their object is accomplished.

Mr. TUCKER would be glad to know what article it was that South Carolina would not contribute her full proportion of tax upon--he saw none; on the contrary, so far as the enumeration went, the impost would bear unequally upon her, and he feared many others in the list would increase the imposition. He thought it the duty of the committee to guard against an unequal distribution of the public burthen in every case, and therefore wished the duty on this article to be a moderate one; not because it affected the State he represented, for it did not do this to any degree, as wax candies were there principally consumed, the material for which was the production of the Southern States, but because other States, not having this advantage, might be oppressed.

Mr. BOUDINOT apprehended most States imported considerable quantities of this article from Russia and Ireland; he expected they would be made cheaper than they could be imported, if a small encouragement was held out by the Government, as the materials were to be had in abundance in our country.

Mr. LAWRENCE thought that if candles were an object of considerable importation, they ought to be taxed for the sake of obtaining revenue, and if they were not imported in considerable quantities, the burthen upon the consumer would be small, while it tended to cherish a valuable manufacture. He seconded Mr. FITZSIMON's motion for two cents: which was carried in the affirmative upon the question being put.

On all candles of wax or spermaceti, per lb. six cents; cheese, four cents; soap, two cents; boots, per pair, fifty cents; on all shoes, slippers, or goloshes made of leather, ten cents; on all shoes or slippers, made of silk or stuff, ten cents; on all steel unwrought, per 112 lbs.,----

Mr. LEE moved to strike out this last article, observing that the consumption of steel was very great, and essentially necessary to agricultural improvements. He did not believe any gentleman would contend, that enough of this article to answer consumption could be fabricated in any part of the Union: hence it would operate as an oppressive, though indirect tax upon agriculture, and any tax, whether direct or indirect, upon this interest, at this juncture, would be unwise and impolitic.

Mr. TUCKER joined the gentleman in his opinion, observing that it was impossible for some States to get it but by importation from foreign countries. He conceived it more deserving a bounty to increase the quantity, than an impost which would lessen the consumption and make it dearer also.

Mr. CLYMER replied, that the manufacture of steel in America was rather in its infancy; but as all the materials necessary to make it were the produce of almost every State in the Union, and as the manufacture was already established, and attended with considerable success, he deemed it prudent to emancipate our country from the manacles in which she was held by foreign manufactures. A furnace in Philadelphia, with a very small aid from the Legislature of Pennsylvania, made three hundred tons in two years, and now makes at the rate of two hundred and thirty tons annually, and with a little further encouragement would supply enough for the consumption of the Union. He hoped, therefore, gentlemen would be disposed, under these considerations, to extend a degree of patronage to a manufacture, which a moment's reflection would convince them was highly deserving protection.

Mr. MADISON thought the object of selecting this article to be solely the encouragement of the manufacture, and not revenue, for on any other consideration it would be more proper, as observed by the gentleman from Carolina, (Mr. TUCKER) to give a bounty on the importation. It was so materially connected with the improvement of agriculture and other manufactures, that he questioned its propriety even on that score. A duty would tend to depress many mechanic arts in the proportion that it protected this; he thought it best to reserve this article to the non-enumerated ones, where it would be subject to a five per cent. ad. valorem.

Mr. TUCKER considered the smallest tax on this article to be a burthen on agriculture, which ought to be considered an interest most deserving protection and encouragement; on this is our principal reliance, on it also our safety and happiness depend. When he considered the state of it in that part of the country which he represented on this floor, and in some other parts of the Union, he was really at a loss to imagine with what propriety any gentleman could propose a measure big with oppression, and tending to burthen particular States. The situation of South Carolina was melancholy; while the inhabitants were deeply in debt, the produce of the State was daily falling in price. Rice and indigo were become so low, as to be considered by many not objects worthy of cultivation; and gentlemen will consider, that it is not an easy thing for a planter to change his whole system of husbandry in a moment; but accumulated burthens will drive to this, and add to their embarrassments. He thought an impost of five per cent. as great an encouragement as ought to be granted, and would not oppose that being laid. He called upon gentlemen to exercise liberality and moderation in what they proposed, if they wished to give satisfaction and do justice to their constituents.

Mr. FITZSIMONS thought, if gentlemen did not get rid of local considerations, the committee would make little progress. Every State will feel itself oppressed by a duty on particular articles, but when the whole system is perfected, the burthen will be equal on all. He did not desire, for his part, to obtain exclusive advantages for Pennsylvania; he would contend, and undertake to prove, that by the duties already agreed to, that State sacrificed as much as any other. Indeed, if he had said more, he believed himself capable of proving the position. Being of this opinion he hoped the committee would agree to grant her an advantage which would revert back upon the other parts of the Union, without operating even for the present, to the material disadvantage of any. Some States were, from local circumstances, better situated to carry on the manufacture than others, and would derive some little advantage on this account in the commencement of the business. The Eastern States were so situated, perhaps some of the Middle ones also; but will it therefore be insisted upon, that the Southern States pay more of the impost on foreign goods than these? For his part, he never could conceive, that the consumption of those articles by the negroes of South Carolina would contribute to the revenue as much as that of the white inhabitants of the Eastern States. But laying aside local distinctions, what operates to the benefit of one part in establishing useful institutions, will eventually operate to the advantage of the whole. With these considerations, he cheerfully submitted the article to the discretion of the committee, moving to fill the blank with sixty-six cents.

Mr. BLAND considered a tax of sixty-six cents a very heavy duty on agriculture and the mechanic arts, and was averse to granting it.

Mr. BOUDINOT moved fifty-six cents, which motion was agreed to.

On nails and spikes, it was agreed to lay one cent per pound; on tarred cordage, fifty cents per 112 pounds; on untarred cordage, sixty cents per 112 pounds; on twine or pack-thread, one hundred cents per 112 pounds.

Mr. MADISON said, that he was not clear as to the policy of taxing cordage. He thought ship-building an object worthy of legislative attention, and questioned the propriety of raising the price of any article that entered so materially into the structure of vessels. But if it was politic to lay an impost on cordage, would it not be the same with regard to hemp? He thought it would, and therefore moved it.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--Hemp is a raw material, necessary for an important manufacture, and therefore ought not to be subject to a heavy duty. If it was the product of the country in general, a duty might be proper, but this he believed was not the case.

Mr. MADISON.--I said before, I very much doubted the propriety of laying a duty on such articles as entered into ship-building; but if it is necessary to lay a duty on cordage for the purpose of encouraging the manufacture, and making us independent of the world as to that article, it is also politic to endeavor to make us alike independent for the raw material; a great proportion of the land in the Western country is peculiarly adapted to the growth of hemp, and it might be there cultivated to advantage, if the labors of the husbandman were protected by the Government.

Mr. BOUDINOT thought the soil of this country ill adapted to the cultivation of hemp; even the strong low lands which are fit for it, soon became exhausted; it impoverished the lands wherever it grew, and destroyed the agricultural stamina. If he was not mistaken in this opinion, he thought the committee would, with him, disagree to the motion.

Mr. PARTRIDGE thought a duty on hemp would tend to discourage the American navigation, her trade, and fisheries, without any good resulting to warrant such an injury. It was not ascertained whether hemp could be furnished in any tolerable quantities to answer the demand, and if upon experience, it should be found that the quantity was insufficient, what a stab this would prove to all concerned in ship-building.

Mr. AMES expressed a doubt of the policy of taxing either cordage or hemp, because while it tended to encourage the agriculture or manufacture, it discouraged the maritime interest, and therefore the discouragement, in the event, would reflect back upon those interests it was intended to cherish.

Mr. MOORE declared the Southern States well calculated for the cultivation of hemp, and, from certain circumstances, well inclined thereto. He conceived it the duty of the committee to pay as much respect to the encouragement and protection of husbandry (the most important of all interests in the United States) as they did to manufactures.

Mr. FITZSIMONS thought there was a clear distinction between taxing manufactures and raw materials, well known to every enlightened country. He had no doubt but hemp enough could be raised for the home consumption, nay for exportation also, and why it was not done he could not say. He recollected that before the revolution, very little was imported; now, considerable quantities are brought from England. When such a bulky article is capable of paying double freight, first from Russia and then from England, besides its first cost, he conceived that what was produced in America had a very considerable advantage. It could not be urged that the people are unacquainted with the cultivation, because it had been carried to very great perfection in former years. If eight dollars a hundred is not a sufficient inducement to farmers to raise hemp, it is a proof that they direct their labors to more profitable productions, and why should legislative authority be exercised to divide their attention? Or for this purpose, why should navigation and ship-building be necessarily burthened. He concluded with declaring, that no duty which the Congress would agree to lay, could give encouragement to the cultivation of hemp, if the present price of that article was insufficient.

Mr. SCOTT stated a fact or two, being perhaps as well acquainted with the Western country as any member of the committee. The lands along the frontiers, he could assure the committee, were well calculated for the cultivation of this plant; it is a production that will bear carriage by land better than any other, tobacco not excepted. He believed an encouragement of the kind now moved for would bring, in a year or two, vast quantities from that country, at little expense, to Philadelphia, even from the waters of the Ohio; the inhabitants expect some encourgement, and will be grateful for it. Although a gentleman has called it a bulky article, yet as much can be packed upon a horse as a horse can carry, or in a wagon as four horses can draw; so that its bulk will not prevent our countrymen from seeking a market on the waters of the Atlantic.

The committee rose and reported, and

The House adjourned.

THURSDAY, April 16.

The House proceeded, by ballot, to the appointment of a committee of five, to attend, with a committee from the Senate, to receive the President of the United States at such place as he shall embark at from New Jersey for this city.

The members elected were Messrs. BOUDINOT, BLAND, TUCKER, BENSON, and LAWRENCE.

On motion,

Ordered, That Messrs. GILMAN, AMES, and GALE, be a committee, in conjunction with a committee from the Senate, to wait upon the Vice President of the United States upon his arrival in this city, and to congratulate him thereupon in the name of the Congress of the United States.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair.

Mr. MOORE thought it good policy to encourage the manufacture of cordage, but was not convinced that it was bad policy to encourage likewise the growth of the raw material in America, so that we might become as independent of all the world for this article, as we are already for every other used in the structure of vessels. He believed it would be difficult to persuade the farmer that his interest ought to be neglected to encourage particular artisans: he therefore begged the committee to do as much for them as was in their power, believing that the event of such policy would mutually benefit the manufacturer and agriculturist.

Mr. HEISTER remarked, that a heavy duty on hemp would not encourage the raising of it this year, because the time was elapsed for commencing the cultivation; but a duty to take place at some future time, would no doubt be beneficial. He assured the committee of the ability of the land in America to grow hemp equal to any part of the world; and, therefore, joined heartily in giving it legislative encouragement, in order to induce the people to turn their attention more particularly to the subject, but would recommend the duty to be laid so as to commence its operation at a distant day.

Mr. WHITE remarked, what was good policy in England might be the contrary in America. England was a maritime nation, and therefore she gave a bounty on such articles as were requisite to support her maritime importance--America was an agricultural country, and therefore ought to attend to the encouragement of that interest. If the Legislature take no notice of this article, the people will be led to believe it is not an object worthy of encouragement, and the spirit of cultivation will be damped; whereas, if a small duty only was laid, it might point out to them that it was desirable, and would induce an increase of the quantity. Our lands are capable of bearing this plant many years without being exhausted. He could not say exactly what sum would be proper to fill the blank with, but mentioned seventy-five cents for the consideration of the committee.

Mr. PARTRIDGE admitted the propriety of encouraging agriculture, but it ought not to be done at the expense of the ship-builders, especially as the good would not balance the evil. He told the committee that hemp had risen, within three or four years, forty per cent. in Russia, owing, perhaps, to the increased demand which the present northern war occasioned. This naturally operated to encourage the cultivation in America, and perhaps was sufficient, without the aid now intended to be given. If gentlemen were desirous of having it stand among the selected articles, he should not object, but hoped the duty would not exceed five per cent. Forty cents were about equal to that rate, and he moved to fill the blank with that sum.

Mr. WHITE thought with the gentleman from Pennsylvania, that the United States would furnish this article in sufficient abundance, not only for home consumption, but for exportation. The maritime powers of Europe do not raise the article, but obtain it principally from Russia--these powers are as well disposed to take it from us as from Russia. Our back lands are extremely well adapted to its cultivation; a road to bring it to market is opening; the Potomac extends her now navigable waters into the interior country, and a communication will be established with the river Ohio and the western waters. The gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. HARTLEY) had hinted at the propriety of settling the western territory; it was his opinion that every encouragement ought to be given them to engage their affection; that the administration of the Government ought to be such as to give satisfaction to all parts of the Union, but it is peculiarly our interest to render that country advantageous; her fertile lands, and streams easy of descent, would pour into the Atlantic States, through the channels he had mentioned, a profusion of wealth, and hemp in abundance. The Shenandoah river disembogues into the Potomac, the South Branch communicates with it also, and a number of other rivers whose lands will produce immense quantities. He considered that this, in a short time, would do more towards encouraging ship-building than a bounty, as had been mentioned by some gentlemen.

Mr. BURKE thought it proper to suggest to the committee what might be the probable effect of the proposed measure in the State he represented, (South Carolina,) and the adjoining one (Georgia.) The staple products of that part of the Union were hardly worth cultivation, on account of their fall in price; the planters are, therefore, disposed to pursue some other. The lands are certainly well adapted to the growth of hemp, and he had no doubt but its culture would be practised with attention. Cotton is likewise in contemplation among them, and if good seed could be procured, he hoped it might succeed. But the low, strong, rice lands, would produce hemp in abundance--many thousand tons even this year, if it was not so late in the season. He liked the idea of laying a low duty now, and encouraging it against the time when a supply might be had from our own cultivation.

Mr. MADISON feared seventy-five cents was too high; he was doubtful whether it would not have been as well to have left out cordage; for if a duty on hemp was impolitic because it burthened navigation, so also was that on cordage. He by no means approved of measures injurious to ship-building, which he considered in a threefold view: first, as it related to vessels employed in the coasting trade; second, as it respected those employed in those channels of trade, the stream of which depends upon the policy of foreign nations; and third, as it was connected with vessels built for sale. With respect to the first, no doubt but we can prevent any discouragement from the operation of the duty, because we can make such discrimination as will prevent a rivalship; but, in relation to the two other points, and particularly the last, he was sensible that every penny laid upon cordage would enter into the price of the vessel, and, by raising the price, drive the purchasers to seek a better bargain at other hands. Fearful therefore of injuring this interest, he should vote for a small duty at present, in hopes of being able to see, in a little time, sufficient quantities of hemp brought to market, as predicted, at even a less price than is given now for the imported.

Mr. SMITH agreed to forty cents, provided the committee would make it one dollar at the end of two years.

Mr. MADISON could not judge of the alteration in the circumstances of this country two years hence, and therefore did not like the kind of provision mentioned. He preferred making it a positive sum, and moved fifty cents; which was agreed to.

On malt.

Mr. SHERMAN thought this might be struck out, on the same principle that beef and pork had been, there was none imported.

Mr. FITZSIMONS replied, that there had been considerable and recent importations of this article into the United States--30,000 bushels in one year; certainly this interferes with the products of the country. He moved ten cents per bushel, and it was agreed to.

On motion of Mr. AMES, barley was taxed six cents, and lime one hundred cents. He just stated that these articles were imported in considerable quantities from a neighboring State that had not yet adopted the constitution; and, perhaps, said he, our political situation is such as to make some regulation on this head necessary.

On nails, spikes, tacks, and brads.

Mr. LEE did not think we were ripe for such extensive manufactures as some gentlemen seemed desirous of encouraging; but this was particularly objectionable, because it was a tax upon the improvement of estates, unless the articles could be furnished as cheap and abundantly at home as they were by foreign nations. He moved to strike it out.

Mr. MADISON conceived this, like a tax on hemp, would increase the price on ship-building; spikes and nails were necessary for the construction of vessels.

Mr. BLAND thought a duty on nails an unequal tax, burthening the Southern States, but not felt by the Northern, who made only enough for their own consumption; he opposed it also on account of its being an article of indispensable necessity.

Mr. GOODHUE informed the gentlemen who were opposed to a duty on nails, that great quantities of them were manufactured for exportation in Massachusetts and Pennsylvania, and he believed some other States; and, in a little time, enough might be made to supply all North America.

Mr. TUCKER judged, from what was said of the little expense and great facility of manufacturing nails, that it stood in no need of legislative assistance. Why lay a duty on foreign nails, when they cannot rival you if you make them as good and as cheap? Will not the five per cent. duty, with freight and shipping charges, be sufficient encouragement? He thought it would, and therefore was averse to any other duty. He observed also, that it would burthen ship-building, and was, consequently against those employed in that business.

Mr. FITZSIMONS was not very solicitous about the duty. He thought the manufacturer would have but little to apprehend if the Legislature should decide against them; for, the fact was, that nails were at this moment made cheaper and, in the opinion of some judges, better than those coming from England. Before the revolution, the people in America were not permitted to erect slitting mills. They now have several, and are independent of all the world for the materials necessary for carrying on the business in the most extensive manner. So far as the duty respected the manufacture in Pennsylvania, it was his opinion that refusing it would do no material injury, and he believed it would draw but little money into the treasury; yet, nevertheless, he was willing to allow a small one, because it conformed to the policy of the States, who thought it proper, in this manner, to protect their manufactures. He believed neither spikes nor nails for ship-building were imported; they were generally large and heavy, and were made in the country, according to the builder's orders.

On the motion, nails and spikes were taxed one cent per pound, but tacks and brads were struck out.

On salt, per bushel.

Mr. BURKE.--I need not observe to the committee that this article is a necessary of life, nor that black cattle, sheep, and horses do not thrive without it; on these considerations alone I should oppose it; but I know likewise that it is a tax particularly odious to the inhabitants of South Carolina and Georgia, to whom the price is already oppressively great. The back parts of that State are obliged to haul all they consume, two, three, or four hundred miles in wagons, for which they pay about seven shillings sterling. Add this to the first cost, which is about one shilling, though sometimes more, and you will find the burthen sustained by those who live remote from the sea-shore sufficiently unequal. I hope, therefore, the committee will not agree to it.

Mr. LAWRENCE hoped a duty would be laid on the article; it was in general use, and the consumption so regular, that it was much to be depended upon as a source of revenue; but the duty ought not to be so high as to make it oppressive. He moved to impose a duty of six cents per bushel.

Mr. TUCKER felt an aversion to laying a duty on salt for several motives. It would bear harder upon the poor than upon the rich. The true principle of taxation is, that every man contribute to the public burthens in proportion to the value of his property. But a poor man consumes as much salt as a rich man. In this point of view, it operates as a poll-tax, the most odious of all taxes; it does not operate simply as a poll-tax, but is heavier on the poor than on the rich, because the poor consume greater quantities of salted provisions than the rich. Nor does it bear equally upon every part of the country; for it is consumed in a greater proportion by cattle at a distance, than by those near the sea shores. Moreover, the duty collected on the importation will enter into the price of the article, and the countryman will pay the retailer a profit on the tax, perhaps of four times its amount. For which reasons, he was more averse to this article being taxed than any other whatsoever.

Mr. SCOTT declared himself decisively against the duty, although he admitted a most certain revenue could be drawn from it, on account of its universal demand and utility. But he did not think these considerations alone amounted to a sufficient reason why this necessary article should be taxed; if they did, the argument would prove too much, it would extend to the use of water and common air. He presumed the old arguments often urged by gentlemen in favor of manufactures did not apply, because no encouragement would be sufficient to establish it.

From the nearest part of the Atlantic coast, where salt can be obtained, to the next nearest in the Western territory, is a distance of eight hundred or one thousand miles; all the intermediate space must be supplied from one or the other; over the mountains it must be carried on pack-horses. This of itself is a sufficient tax upon the consumer; how oppressive then must it be to increase the burthen.

Mr. MOORE observed upon the inequality, as it respected the consumption of the article by cattle: some States raised more than others, consequently they consumed more; some parts of the same State were in a like situation. The people on the sea-coast pursued merchandise; those in the back parts raised cattle, which he was bold to say consumed five times as much salt as the lower country, and would pay the tax in the same proportion. It has been said, that if they pay more on salt, they pay less on other articles--agreed to. But there are a number more which may perhaps unequally affect them; yet it is an argument of small weight to say, because we in large commercial cities are regulated in a sumptuary manner for indulging in luxuries, you who are obliged to retrench them shall pay a tax upon the necessaries of life. In short, the tax appeared to him not only unpopular, but unjust likewise, and he would not agree to it.

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina.)--If any further arguments were necessary to convince the committee of the impropriety of the present measure, more might be urged, though what has been said is certainly sufficient to demonstrate that it will be attended with a great deal of dissatisfaction, and in proportion to that dissatisfaction will be the danger of having your laws contemned, opposed, or neglected in the execution. It is well known, that however small the duty, it will furnish a pretext to the seller to extort a much greater sum from the consumer. Another observation. It is believed that the inhabitants of the interior part of South Carolina are opposed to the new Government; it will be a melancholy circumstance to entangle ourselves, at this time, among the shoals of discontent; yet no stronger impulse could be given for opposition than the proposed tax; conceiving it in this light, he was against the measure.

Mr. SCOTT added, that the price of salt where he lived was four dollars a bushel, the country was settled three or four hundred miles beyond him, and he supposed the price there to be greater.

Mr. LAWRENCE thought it would be better for the committee to take time to examine what had been urged against the tax, and as it was the usual time for adjourning, the committee might rise and defer their decision till to-morrow.

Whereupon the committee rose, and the House adjourned.

FRIDAY, April 17.

BENJAMIN CONTEE, from Maryland, appeared and took his seat.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair; the question of laying a duty on salt recurred.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--I had the honor yesterday of delivering my sentiments in favor of this duty; but observations were made by gentlemen from different parts of the House against the measure. The principal objection was, that the tax was an odious one. It was admitted by a worthy gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. SCOTT) that all taxes are odious; this is certainly true, for the people are not pleased with paying them; nothing but necessity will induce a Government to have recourse to them. It is also true, that some are more odious than others. From what has been said, it may be seen that a tax on salt is not so in general, but only in particular parts of the Union; the remote inhabitants, it is said, will be dissatisfied, because it increases the price of the commodity, and they use more of it than others. It is mentioned as partaking of the nature of a capitation tax, but this kind of tax is odious, more from its manner of operation than its nature. We find in some States where it is in use, the people live easy under it; for example, it is not complained of in some of the Eastern States. We have not much to apprehend from a tax on salt in this State; the people are satisfied with it; at least the complaints are neither so loud nor so general, as to make us apprehensive for the existence of the Government we live under. Its operations, though the contrary was predicted, go on with as much ease since an impost has been laid, as they did before. I believe, likewise, we have only to try the experiment, to be convinced it would have a similar effect throughout the continent; for I cannot persuade myself that it is generally looked upon in so odious a light as some gentlemen imagine. It was also said, that the tax would be unequal, and the objects of inequality were two. The poor man would pay as much as the rich; but this is not the case; the rich are generally more profuse in their consumption than the poor; they have more servants and dependents also to consume it; consequently the whole amount of their consumption must be in a proportionable ratio. The other inequality was its different operation in different States, and even different parts of the same State. On examination, this objection also may be obviated. Gentlemen tell you the high price of this article at three or four hundred miles distance; is it not hence presumable that there they consume as little as possible, while along the sea-coasts they use it with a liberal hand? But whether it be consumed on the sea-coast, or on the western waters, the tax is the same, or but inconsiderably augmented; for I take it the great addition which is made is in consequence of the charge of carriage. I cannot, therefore, see by what magic gentlemen will prove to you that it is increased four or five fold. We must also take into contemplation the number of persons who consume it; here it will appear, that the weight of population is much greater on the sea-coast than in the western parts of Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Carolina, consequently the consumption must be greater. It was said, the argument I urged was not a good one, because it proved too much, that an article of general consumption was not the best article for taxation; now, I believe the maxim is just, and when examined it will be found so. Taxes, to be just, should affect all, and equally affect them, and not be left to fall partially upon a few. This is more the case with salt than any other article which has yet been taxed, and I believe is the only tax which will get at the pockets of those to whom it is said to be obnoxious. But how comes it, if the other articles are equally consumed in the back countries, that gentlemen did not urge the argument of expense on transportation, and the pretext that a tax would furnish the seller to extort from the consumer.

Mr. MADISON.--From the nature of the arguments made use of on this occasion, it is necessary to proceed with some circumspection, though not to depart from that policy which can be justified by reason and experience. I am willing to trust a great deal to the good sense, justice, and penetration of our fellow-citizens for support; and though I think it might be just to lay a considerable duty generally on imported articles, yet it would not be prudent or politic, at this time, to do so. Let us now proceed to consider the subject before us, on the principles of justice and principles of policy. In the first point of view, we may consider the effect it will have on the different descriptions of people throughout the United States, I mean different descriptions, as they relate to property. I readily agree that, in itself, a tax would be unjust and oppressive that did not fall on the citizens according to their degree of property and ability to pay it; were it, therefore, this single article which we are about to tax, I should think it indispensable that it should operate equally, agreeably to the principle I have just mentioned. But in order to determine whether a tax on salt is just or unjust, we must consider it as part of a system, and judge of the operation of this system as if it was but a single article; if this is found to be unequal, it is also unjust. Now, examine the preceding articles, and consider how they affect the rich, and it will be found that they bear more than a just proportion according to their ability to pay; by adding this article, we shall rather equalize the disproportion than increase it, if it is true, as has been often mentioned, that the poor will contribute more of this tax than the rich. When we consider the tax as it operates on the different parts of the United States, dividing the whole into the northern, middle, and southern districts, it will be found that they contribute also in proportion to their numbers and ability to pay. If there be any distinction in this respect, it will be perceived to be in favor of the southern division, because the species of property there consists of mouths that consume salt in the same proportion as the whites; but they have not this property in the middle and northern districts to pay taxes for. The most important objection is, that the western part of our country uses more salt than any other; this makes it unequal; but, considered as a part of a system, the equilibrium is restored, when you find this almost the only tax they will have to pay. Will they contribute any thing by consuming imported spirits? Very little. Yet, this is a principal source of revenue; they will subsist upon what they procure at home; and will they submit to a direct tax, if they murmur at so light a one on salt? Will they submit to an excise? If they would, I trust it is not in the contemplation of gentlemen to propose it.

Mr. WHITE, after some doubts, had made up his mind against the article being taxed. We ought to pass no law that is unjust or oppressive in its nature, or which the people may consider as unjust or oppressive; a duty on salt would be considered in that light by a great number. Our constituents expect some ease and relief, particularly the poorer sort of people. It seems to be granted, from all that has been said, that it will affect them in a manner which no other tax can, though, it is said, they will not be affected beyond their proportion, as they pay nothing for the consumption of wine, spirits, &c. because they use none. One reason which influenced the committee to tax those articles, was to abolish the use of them altogether, or prevent the excesses they occasioned. Now will you urge in argument for taxing the poor, that they already practise that temperance which you desire to bring universally about? All taxes, it is admitted, are odious, and some merely from opinion; but if they are odious from opinion, they ought to be carefully guarded against, especially if the Government depends upon opinion for support.

Mr. SMITH, of Maryland, said, they collected eight cents in his State, and it caused no complaint that he knew of.

The question on imposing six cents on salt was put and carried, as was a motion for a drawback on salted provisions and fish.

On manufactured tobacco.

Mr. SHERMAN moved six cents, as he thought the duty ought to amount to a prohibition. This was agreed to.

On snuff, ten cents per pound.

Mr. CARROLL moved to insert window and other glass. A manufacture of this article was begun in Maryland, and attended with considerable success; if the Legislature were to grant a small encouragement, it would be permanently established; the materials were to be found in the country in sufficient quantities to answer the most extensive demand.

A desultory conversation arose in the committee respecting the propriety of receiving the motion at this time, when it was agreed to add on all window and other glass, except black quart bottles, ten per cent. ad valorem.

Mr. CLYMER informed the House of the state of the paper mills in Pennsylvania; they were so numerous as to be able to supply a very extensive demand in that and the neighboring States; they annually produce about 70,000 reams of various kinds, which is sold as cheap as it can be imported. This manufacture certainly is an important one; and having grown up under legislative encouragement, it will be wise to continue it. Thereupon it was agreed to lay an impost of seven and a half per cent. ad valorem on blank books, writing, printing, and wrapping paper, and pasteboard; the same, without debate, was laid upon canes, walking-sticks, whips, clothing ready made, on gold, silver, and plated ware, and on jewelry and paste work; upon cabinet ware, buttons of metal, saddles, gloves of leather, all hats of beaver, fur, wool, or mixture of either, all millinery, castings of iron, or slit or rolled iron, all leather tanned or tawed, or manufactures thereof, except such as are otherwise rated.

On every coach, chariot, or other four wheel carriage, and on every chaise, solo, or other two wheel carriage, or parts thereof, fifteen per cent. ad valorem.

SATURDAY, April 18.

Mr. WHITE, from the Committee of Elections, reported that the committee had examined the certificates and other credentials of the members returned to serve in this House, and found them entitled to take their seats; which report was concurred with.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair.

On motion of Mr. GOODHUE, anchors at seven and a half per cent. ad valorem, was added.

On motion of Mr. SHERMAN, nutmegs, cinnamon, raisins, figs, currants, and almonds, were struck out.

Mr. AMES introduced wool cards, with observing that they were manufactured to the eastward as good and as cheap as the imported ones.

Mr. CLYMER mentioned, that in the State of Pennsylvania, the manufacture was carried to great perfection, and enough could be furnished to supply the demand. A duty of fifty cents per dozen was imposed on wool cards.

On wrought tin ware, seven and a half per centum ad valorem; on every quintal of fish, fifty cents; and on every barrel of pickled fish, seventy-five cents.

Mr. FITZSIMONS moved the following: On all teas imported from China or India, in ships built in the United States, and belonging wholly to a citizen or citizens thereof, as follows: on bohea tea, per pound, six cents; on all souchong and other black teas, ten cents; on superior green teas, twenty cents; on all other teas, ten cents.

On all teas imported from any other country, or from China or India, in ships which are not the property of the United States, as follows: on bohea tea, per pound, ten cents; souchong, and other black teas, fifteen cents; on superior green teas, thirty cents; on all other green teas, eighteen cents per pound.

Mr. FITZSIMONS supported the motion, by observing that one effect of the late glorious revolution was, to deprive the merchants of America of most of the channels of commerce which they had before pursued. This circumstance obliged them to search for other sources to employ their vessels in. It had been discovered that a pretty lucrative trade could be carried on with the countries in the east; the merchants have gone largely into it, and it at present gives employment to some thousand tons of American shipping and seamen; our success has been so great, as to excite the jealousy of Europe, and nothing is left undone to cramp or prevent our commercial operations in that quarter. The Legislature of Pennsylvania, impressed with the importance of the subject, had granted it aid by discriminating in the manner he proposed to the committee; and with the like aid from the Government of the United States, the merchants may no longer fear the machinations of the opulent companies in Europe, who are unwilling to let us partake of a trade they so long have had a monopoly of. Already the trade to India has had a very happy effect in favor of our inhabitants, by reducing commodities brought from thence to one half of their former price, and yet a sufficient profit is left to enable those concerned to carry it on with advantage.

Mr. MADISON felt a reluctance in being obliged to state his reasons why he doubted the policy of the proposed measure. What, said he, is its object? It is not to add to the revenue, for it will in fact tend to diminish it, in that proportion which the importation from China lessens that from other parts; it is not to increase our commerce, for long voyages are unfriendly to it; it is not to increase the importation of necessary articles, for India goods are mostly articles of luxury; it is not to carry off our superfluities, for these articles are paid for principally, if not altogether, in solid coin. If the trade is beneficial at all to the United States, it must be in this single point of view, that the articles can be imported cheaper through that channel than any other; and, if so, that it is the interest of the people to be supplied as cheap as possible. There are no collateral good purposes to claim our attention in this case. It is not in the nature of things that we should derive any other advantage than the one I have mentioned, without it is that of raising our India commerce from its weak and infant state to strength and vigor; to enable it to continue supplies at a cheaper rate than they could otherwise be obtained.

Mr. GOODHUE replied to Mr. MADISON's observations, respecting the mode of paying for India goods, by informing the committee that very considerable quantities of ginseng, naval stores, lumber, and provisions, were shipped; other articles were sent also, and disposed of at ports on this side of China, in order to procure the most suitable cargo; so that we do not pay principally for their commodities in solid coin, but send off superfluities to a considerable amount, much more than if we were to procure our teas and nankeens from any part of Europe.

Mr. MADISON had not made the objection merely because the specie was exported, but to show that it did not bring in an equivalent, as the goods were mostly of that kind which are termed luxuries.

Mr. BOUDINOT declared himself a friend to the Indian commerce. He thought it encouraged the employment of shipping, and increased our seamen; he knew its advantages to agriculture. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) supposed but little of our productions were sent in exchange for India goods; but our beef, pork, flour, and wheat, were shipped for this purpose, not to China, yet to ports where proper cargoes were taken in to answer the trade. Encouragement and protection were necessary to prevent the large companies in Europe from underselling our merchants, which they would readily do, at considerable loss, if they could, in consequence, put a stop to our trade. He hoped, therefore, the committee would not hesitate in adopting the motion.

The motion was adopted accordingly.

On coal per bushel ---- cents.

Mr. BLAND informed the committee, that there were mines opened in Virginia capable of supplying the whole of the United States, and, if some restraint was laid on the importation of foreign coal, those mines might be worked to advantage. He thought it needless to insist upon the advantages resulting from a colliery, as a supply for culinary and mechanical purposes, and as a nursery to train up seamen for a navy. He moved three cents a bushel.

Mr. HARTLEY was willing to admit a moderate duty, but thought three cents would be a great discouragement to those manufactures which necessarily consume large quantities of fuel. He moved one cent.

Mr. PARKER said, that a less sum than three cents would not answer the purpose intended. Coal came from England as ballast, and was sold so low, as almost to prevent the working of their mines in Virginia. He hoped, if the committee were disposed to encourage them, they would proportion the means to the end; a duty of one cent would be void; nothing under what was moved by his colleague (Mr. BLAND) could answer the purpose. He hoped, therefore, the committee would agree to three cents.

On the question, there appeared a majority in favor of three cents. After which the committee rose, and the House adjourned.

MONDAY, April 20.

ABRAHAM BALDWIN and JAMES JACKSON, from Georgia, appeared and took their seats.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. PAGE in the chair.

The following clause of the bill was agreed to, viz: "On all other articles, five per cent. on their value at the time and place of importation, except tin in pigs, tin plates, lead, old pewter, brass, iron or brass wire, copper in plates, wool, dying woods and dying drugs, (other than indigo,) raw hides, beaver, and all other furs, and deer skins."

Mr. FITZSIMONS proposed a drawback of six cents per gallon on all rum distilled in the United States, exported without the limits of the same.

Mr. MADISON asked if the quantity of rum so exported was very considerable? He believed it was not; and he would not, for the sake of encouraging that branch of trade, open a door by which frauds on the revenue could be committed equal to the whole duty collected.

Mr. FITZSIMONS could not say what quantity of rum was exported in that way; but he feared, unless a drawback was allowed, it would be a great injury to the manufacture. At the time the duty of six cents on molasses was laid, he thought it was understood, the committee would allow a drawback on the rum exported. There seems to be an apprehension that the system of drawbacks will operate to the disadvantage of the revenue; but he believed a mode could be devised to prevent frauds, in this case, fully as effectually as on the importation. If this was not done, it would be time enough for gentlemen to oppose it; they would have this opportunity, because a bill, regulating the manner of collection, he presumed, would pass at the same time with the one for levying the duties. If drawbacks were not allowed, it would be a very considerable restraint on commerce, particularly on the India trade, which he believed was likely to be considerably extended. He was sorry the gentlemen from Massachusetts were not there in their places,[20] to give information to the committee respecting the quantity exported from that State; from Pennsylvania the quantity was but small.

Mr. FITZSIMONS contended for drawbacks generally, but on this article it was particular injustice to omit it. The manufacture of rum was of considerable importance in the Eastern States, but it would not be able to stand a successful competition with West India rum in foreign countries, while loaded with a duty of six cents per gallon. The tax on molasses was that sum, and he looked upon it to be the same thing as if it had been paid on the rum at distillation; one gallon of the former yielding but one of the latter.

Mr. MADISON thought there were very few cases in which drawbacks ought to be allowed, perhaps none but what related to the East India trade. The small proportion of distilled rum exported did not justify so great a risk; but of the small proportion which went abroad, the greatest part went to the coast of Africa. He feared this trade was inconsistent with the good of mankind, and ought to be reprobated instead of encouraged.

Mr. BLAND said the committee had spent several days in encouraging manufactures, by selecting articles for revenue, and were now extending their views to the encouragement of commerce. He thought there was some impropriety in combining the clause proposed in this part of the bill, and even doubted if it was in order; therefore would vote against it.

The question was put on the motion for a drawback on country rum, and lost.

Mr. FITZSIMONS had another clause upon the same subject, only on more general principles; he hoped gentlemen would consider well before they doomed it to share the fate of the former. It was to this purpose: that all the duties paid, or secured to be paid, upon goods imported, shall be returned or discharged upon such of the said goods, as shall within ---- months be exported to any country without the limits of the United States, except so much as shall be necessary to defray the expense that may have accrued by the entry and the safe keeping thereof. The subjects of duties and drawbacks are so connected by their nature, that he did not see how they were to be separated. Gentlemen did not imagine that what had been done tended to favor commerce; it certainly did not. Every impost which is paid is a disadvantage to the person concerned in trade, and nothing but necessity could induce a submission to it. The interest of the landholder is undoubtedly blended with the commercial interest; if the latter receive an injury, the former will have to sustain his proportion of it; if drawbacks are not allowed, the operations of trade will be considerably shackled; merchants will be obliged, in the first instance, to send their cargoes to the place of consumption, and lose the advantage of a circuitous freight, which alone is a profit of no small magnitude.

Mr. HARTLEY expressed his sorrow for the last decision of the committee; he wished the question had not been put in the absence of the gentlemen from Massachusetts, who were on a business in some degree of a public nature. The present motion was only just brought in; he submitted, therefore, to the committee, if it were not best to pass it over for the present, in order to give time for consideration.

TUESDAY, April 21.

Mr. HARTLEY asked and obtained leave of absence.

WEDNESDAY, April 22.

PETER SYLVESTER, from New York, appeared and took his seat.

THURSDAY, April 23.

JOHN HATHORN, from New York, appeared and took his seat.

FRIDAY, April 24.

Mr. BOUDINOT reported, from the committee appointed to attend with a committee from the Senate, to receive the President of the United States, at the place of his embarkation from New Jersey, that the committee did, according to order, together with a committee from the Senate, attend at Elizabethtown, in New Jersey, on the 23d instant, at which place the two committees met the President, and thence embarked for this city, where they arrived about three o'clock in the afternoon of the same day, and conducted him to the house appointed for his residence.

The Speaker laid before the House a letter from the Vice President of the United States, enclosing a resolution of the Senate, appointing a committee to consider and report what style or titles it will be proper to annex to the office of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the constitution; also to consider of the time, place, and manner in which, and the person by whom, the oath prescribed by the constitution, shall be administered to the President, and to confer thereon with such committee as this House should appoint for that purpose; whereupon,

Ordered, That a committee, to consist of five members, be appointed for the purpose expressed in the resolution of the Senate.

The members elected were Messrs. BENSON, AMES, MADISON, CARROLL, and SHERMAN.

Duties on Imports.

The House then proceeded to consider the resolutions reported by the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.

Mr. BOUDINOT complained that the articles were generally taxed too high, not too high for the article to bear, but too high for the due collection of the revenue. Every thing we tax should be considered as it relates to the interest of the importer, as well as other circumstances; now, if it is discovered that the duties are so great as to make it a beneficial trade to the merchant to run his goods, he will do so, and injure the revenue.

Mr. MADISON was sensible that high duties had a tendency to promote smuggling, and in case those kinds of frauds were successfully practised the revenue must be diminished; yet he believed the sum proposed on spirits was not so high as to produce those effects to any considerable degree. If any article is capable of paying a heavy duty, it is this; if the duty on any article is capable of being collected with certainty, it is this; if a duty on any article is consonant with the sentiment of the people of America, it is this; why then should not the article be made as tributary as possible to the wants of Government? But, besides these favorable circumstances, I think the combination of the merchants will come in aid of the law; the people will also lend their aid. These circumstances would do much toward insuring the due collection of the revenue.

Mr. JACKSON seconded Mr. BOUDINOT's motion for reducing the duties, because he was well convinced they were too high even to be well collected, unless we establish custom-houses every ten or twelve miles, like watch-towers, along the sea-coast. When trade is so unproductive, the Legislature ought to be careful how they make it more worth a man's while to live by committing frauds upon the revenue than by practising honest commerce.

There is another consideration which particularly regarded the Georgia trade. That country, abounding with lumber of the most luxurious growth, could only exchange it for rum; and a very considerable commerce grew out of this intercourse favorable to Georgia. This would be affected by the imposition of heavy duties; but commercial considerations, we shall be told, form only a secondary object in this business. There is another proposition in which he acquiesced; it would be more convenient, and more to the honor of the House, to make their first essay with low duties; because, if they persisted in laying them high, they would be compelled to an inglorious retreat, and the Government would be insulted. In the State he represented, it was next to impossible to collect the revenue, the country was so intersected with navigable creeks and rivers, if the people were disposed to evade the payment of it; and there was no more certain way to produce this disposition than by making it their interest to defraud you.

Mr. BOUDINOT was not ashamed to confess that he wanted the advantages of commercial knowledge on a question where the principles of trade were interwoven; but he opposed high duties on a conviction in his own mind that they could not be collected. He repeated some few of his former arguments to show why he held this opinion; but it was not the particular article of rum that he was opposed to, it was the high scale on which the duties were laid generally, and that only from an idea that greater revenue might be obtained from less duties.

Mr. TUCKER wished the duties to be lowered, and proposed to the committee to strike off seven cents from the fifteen; by varying his motion in this manner, he expected the sense of the House could be taken on his proposition first, notwithstanding the rule that "the question shall be put on the highest sum first." He joined in the opinion that high duties were productive of smuggling; that notwithstanding the powers and vigilance of custom-house officers, and the whole Executive, contraband trade is carried on in every nation where the duties are so high; the facility with which it could be done in America ought to show a prudent Legislature the degree of probability; unless this can be guarded against, what will the law avail? It can avail nothing. Besides, the higher the duty is laid, the more you expose the officer to the temptation of being corrupted; when that is done, the revenue will be very unproductive.

Mr. BLAND would second the gentleman last up, but thought it was not in order to have the question taken first on the lowest sum.

Mr. FITZSIMONS observed to the House, that the decision of the present question, in his mind, involved some very important alterations in the present measure; the consequences resulting from which ought to be well considered. In order, therefore, to gain time for this purpose, he would move an adjournment; whereupon the House adjourned.

SATURDAY, April 25.

Mr. BENSON, from the committee appointed to consider of the time, place, and manner in which, and of the person by whom the oath prescribed by the constitution shall be administered to the President of the United States, and to confer with a committee of the Senate for the purpose, reported as followeth:

That the President hath been pleased to signify to them that any time or place which both Houses may think proper to appoint, and any manner which shall appear most eligible to them, will be acceptable to him: that requisite preparations cannot probably be made before Thursday next: that the President be on that day formally received by both Houses in the Senate Chamber: that the Representatives' Chamber being capable of receiving the greater number of persons, that therefore the President do take the oath in that place, and in the presence of both Houses: that after the formal reception of the President in the Senate Chamber, he be attended by both Houses to the Representatives' Chamber, and that the oath be administered by the Chancellor of this State.

The committee further report it as their opinion, that it will be proper that a committee of both Houses be appointed to take order for further conducting the ceremonial.

The said report was twice read; and, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House.

Ordered, That Messrs. BENSON, AMES, and CARROLL be a committee on the part of this House, pursuant to the said report.

MONDAY, April 27.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Vice President of the United States, enclosing certain proceedings of the Senate, touching the ceremonial of the formal reception of the President of the United States, by both Houses, which were read, and ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. BENSON, from the committee of both Houses, appointed to take order for conducting the ceremonial of the formal reception of the President of the United States, reported as followeth:

"That it appears to the committee more eligible that the oath should be administered to the President in the outer gallery adjoining the Senate Chamber, than in the Representatives' Chamber, and therefore submit to the respective Houses the propriety of authorizing their committees to take order as to the place where the oath shall be administered to the President, the resolutions of Saturday, assigning the Representatives' Chamber as the place, notwithstanding."

The said report being twice read,

Resolved, That this House doth concur in the said report, and authorize the committee to take order for the change of place thereby proposed.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a letter from the Vice President of the United States, enclosing two orders of the Senate, one of the 13th instant, appointing a committee to confer with any committee to be appointed on the part of this House, respecting the future disposition of the papers, &c. in the office of the late Secretary of the United States: the other of the 27th instant, for the attendance of both Houses, with the President of the United States, after the oath shall be administered to him, to hear divine service at St. Paul's Chapel: which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

TUESDAY, April 28.

Mr. RICHARD BLAND LEE, from the committee to whom was recommitted the report respecting the mode of communicating papers, bills, and messages, between the two Houses, reported as followth:

"When a message shall be sent from the Senate to the House of Representatives, it shall be announced at the door of the House by the doorkeeper, and shall be respectfully communicated to the Chair, by the person by whom it may be sent.

"The same ceremony shall be observed when a message shall be sent from the House of Representatives to the Senate.

"Messages shall be sent by such persons as a sense of propriety in each House may determine to be proper."

The said report was twice read, and, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House.

A letter from Matthias Ogden, of New Jersey, referring to sundry petitions from citizens of that State, complaining of illegality in the late election of Representatives for that State to this House was read and ordered to lie on the table.

The order of the Senate of the 13th instant was read, appointing a committee to confer with any committee to be appointed on the part of this House, respecting the future disposition of the papers in the office of the late Secretary of the United States; whereupon

Ordered, That Messrs. TRUMBULL, CADWALADER, and JACKSON, be a committee for that purpose.

WEDNESDAY, April 29.

The House proceeded to consider the report from the Committee of Elections (which lay on the table) on the petition of David Ramsay, of the State of South Carolina, suggesting that William Smith, returned a member of this House, as elected within that State, was, at the time of his election, ineligible; and the said report being amended to read as followeth:

That in this case it will be sufficient in the first instance, that a committee take such proofs as can be obtained in this city respecting the facts stated in the petition, and report the same to the House--That Mr. Smith be permitted to be present from time to time when such proofs are taken, to examine the witnesses, and to offer counter-proofs, which shall also be received by the committee, and reported to the House--That if the proofs so to be reported shall be declared by the House insufficient to verify the material facts stated in the petition, or such other facts as the House shall deem proper to be inquired into, it will then be necessary for the House to direct a further inquiry, and especially the procuring whatever additional testimony may be supposed to be in South Carolina, as the case may require--That all questions arising on the proofs be decided by the House, without any previous opinion thereon reported by a committee.

Resolved, That this House doth agree to the said report, and that it be an instruction to the Committee of Elections to proceed accordingly.

On motion,

Ordered, That a committee be appointed to prepare and report an estimate of the supplies requisite for the present year, and of the net produce of the impost as agreed to by the House, and that Messrs. GERRY, SMITH, (of Maryland,) and PARKER, be of the said committee.

The House proceeded to consider the following resolution of the Senate, to wit:

"In Senate, April 27.

"Resolved, That after the oath shall have been administered to the President, he, attended by the Vice President, and the members of the Senate and House of Representatives, proceed to St. Paul's Chapel to hear divine service, to be performed by the Chaplains to Congress already appointed:" Whereupon,

Resolved, That this House doth concur with the Senate in the said resolution: amended to read as followeth, to wit:

"That after the oath shall have been administered to the President, the Vice President and members of the Senate, the Speaker and members of the House of Representatives, will accompany him to St. Paul's Chapel, to hear divine service performed by the Chaplains of Congress."

Ordered, That the Clerk of this House do carry the said resolution to the Senate, and desire their concurrence.--Adjourned.

THURSDAY, April 30.

JONATHAN GROUT, from Massachusetts, appeared and took his seat.

This being the day on which the President of the United States was inaugurated, no other business, of course, was attended to. The President's address to both Houses appears in the proceedings of the Senate.[21]

FRIDAY, May 1.

The SPEAKER laid before the House a copy of the speech of the President of the United States, to both Houses of Congress, delivered yesterday in the Senate Chamber, immediately after his inauguration, which being read,

On motion,

Resolved, That the said speech be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

The House accordingly resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. PAGE in the chair. And after adopting the following resolution, the committee rose, and reported it to the House, which agreed to it.

Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that an address to the President ought to be prepared, expressing the congratulations of the House of Representatives, on the distinguished proof given him of the affection and confidence of his fellow-citizens, by the unanimous suffrage which has appointed him to the high station which he fills; the approbation felt by the House of the patriotic sentiments and enlightened policy recommended by his speech; and assuring him of their disposition to concur in giving effect to every measure which may tend to secure the liberties, promote the harmony, and advance the happiness and prosperity of their country.

Ordered, That a committee to consist of five members be appointed to prepare an address pursuant to the said resolution. The members elected Messrs. MADISON, CLYMER, SHERMAN, GALE, and BENSON.

A motion was made that the House do come to the following resolution:

Resolved, That ---- per annum be the compensation to be allowed to the President of the United States, during the term for which he is to be elected.

The said resolution being read, was committed to a Committee of the whole House.

The House then proceeded by ballot to the appointment of a Chaplain to Congress on the part of this House. Upon examining the ballots, it appeared that the Rev. WILLIAM LINN was elected.

SAMUEL LIVERMORE, from New Hampshire, appeared and took his seat.

TUESDAY, May 5.

Mr. BENSON, from the committee appointed to consider of, and report what style or titles it will be proper to annex to the office of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the Constitution, and to confer with a committee of the Senate appointed for the same purpose, reported as followeth:

"That it is not proper to annex any style or title to the respective styles or titles of office expressed in the Constitution."

And the said report being twice read at the Clerk's table, was, on the question put thereupon, agreed to by the House.

Ordered, that the Clerk of this House do acquaint the Senate therewith.

Mr. MADISON, from the committee appointed to prepare an address on the part of this House to the President of the United States, in answer to his speech to both Houses of Congress, reported as followeth:

_The Address of the House of Representatives to George Washington, President of the United States._

SIR: The Representatives of the People of the United States present their congratulations on the event by which your fellow-citizens have attested the pre-eminence of your merit. You have long held the first place in their esteem. You have often received tokens of their affection. You now possess the only proof that remained of their gratitude for your services, of their reverence for your wisdom, and of their confidence in your virtues. You enjoy the highest, because the truest honor, of being the First Magistrate, by the unanimous choice of the freest people on the face of the earth.

We well know the anxieties with which you must have obeyed a summons from the repose reserved for your declining years, into public scenes, of which you had taken your leave for ever. But the obedience was due to the occasion. It is already applauded by the universal joy which welcomes you to your station. And we cannot doubt that it will be rewarded with all the satisfaction with which an ardent love for your fellow-citizens must review successful efforts to promote their happiness.

This anticipation is not justified merely by the past experience of your signal services. It is particularly suggested by the pious impressions under which you mean to commence your administration, and the enlightened maxims by which you mean to conduct it. We feel with you the strongest obligations to adore the invisible hand which has led the American people through so many difficulties, to cherish a conscious responsibility for the destiny of republican liberty; and to seek the only sure means of preserving and recommending the precious deposit in a system of legislation founded on the principles of an honest policy, and directed by the spirit of a diffusive patriotism.

The question arising out of the fifth article of the Constitution will receive all the attention demanded by its importance; and will, we trust, be decided, under the influence of all the considerations to which you allude.

In forming the pecuniary provisions for the Executive Department, we shall not lose sight of a wish resulting from motives which give it a peculiar claim to our regard. Your resolution, in a moment critical to the liberties of your country, to renounce all personal emolument, was among the many presages of your patriotic services, which have been amply fulfilled; and your scrupulous adherence now to the law then imposed on yourself, cannot fail to demonstrate the purity, whilst it increases the lustre of a character which has so many titles to admiration.

Such are the sentiments which we have thought fit to address to you. They flow from our own hearts, and we verily believe that, among the millions we represent, there is not a virtuous citizen whose heart will disown them.

All that remains is, that we join in your fervent supplications for the blessings of heaven on our country; and that we add our own for the choicest of these blessings on the most beloved of our citizens.

Said address was committed to a Committee of the Whole; and the House immediately resolved itself into a committee, Mr. PAGE in the chair. The committee proposing no amendment thereto, rose and reported the address, and the House agreed to it, and resolved that the Speaker, attended by the members of this House, do present the said address to the President.

Ordered, That Messrs. SINNICKSON, COLES, and SMITH (of South Carolina), be a committee to wait on the President to know when it will be convenient for him to receive the same.

Mr. CLYMER, from the committee appointed for the purpose, reported a bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandise, imported into the United States, which passed its first reading.

Amendment of the Constitution.

[Mr. BLAND presented the application of the Legislature of Virginia, to have a convention called of deputies from all the States, to consider the defects of the Constitution and report amendments; and moved to refer the application to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union.]

Mr. BOUDINOT.--According to the terms of the Constitution, the business cannot be taken up until a certain number of States have concurred in similar applications; certainly the House is disposed to pay a proper attention to the application of so respectable a State as Virginia, but if it is a business which we cannot interfere with in a constitutional manner, we had better let it remain on the files of the House until the proper number of applications come forward.

Mr. BLAND thought there could be no impropriety in referring any subject to a committee; but surely this deserved the serious and solemn consideration of Congress. He hoped no gentleman would oppose the compliment of referring it to a Committee of the Whole; beside, it would be a guide to the deliberations of the committee on the subject of amendments, which would shortly come before the House.

Mr. MADISON said, he had no doubt but the House was inclined to treat the present application with respect, but he doubted the propriety of committing it, because it would seem to imply that the House had a right to deliberate upon the subject. This, he believed, was not the case until two-thirds of the State Legislatures concurred in such application, and then it is out of the power of Congress to decline complying, the words of the Constitution being express and positive relative to the agency Congress may have in case of applications of this nature. "The Congress, wherever two-thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution; or, on the application of the Legislatures of two-thirds of the several States, shall call a convention for proposing amendments." From hence it must appear that Congress have no deliberative power on this occasion. The most respectful and constitutional mode of performing our duty will be, to let it be entered on the minutes, and remain upon the files of the House until similar applications come to hand from two-thirds of the States.

Mr. BOUDINOT hoped the gentleman who desired the commitment of the application would not suppose him wanting in respect to the State of Virginia. He entertained the most profound respect for her--but it was on a principle of respect to order and propriety that he opposed the commitment; enough had been said to convince gentlemen that it was improper to commit--for what purpose can it be done? what can the committee report? The application is to call a new convention. Now, in this case, there is nothing left for us to do, but to call one when two-thirds of the State Legislatures apply for that purpose. He hoped the gentleman would withdraw his motion for commitment.

Mr. BLAND.--The application now before the committee contains a number of reasons why it is necessary to call a convention. By the fifth article of the Constitution, Congress are obliged to order this convention when two-thirds of the Legislatures apply for it; but how can these reasons be properly weighed, unless it be done in committee? Therefore, I hope the House will agree to refer it.

Mr. HUNTINGTON thought it proper to let the application remain on the table, it can be called up with others when enough are presented to make two-thirds of the whole States. There would be an evident impropriety in committing, because it would argue a right in the House to deliberate, and, consequently, a power to procrastinate the measure applied for.

Mr. TUCKER thought it not right to disregard the application of any State, and inferred, that the House had a right to consider every application that was made; if two-thirds had not applied, the subject might be taken into consideration, but if two-thirds had applied, it precluded deliberation on the part of the House. He hoped the present application would be properly noticed.

Mr. GERRY.--The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) told us yesterday, that he meant to move the consideration of amendments on the fourth Monday of this month; he did not make such motion then, and may be prevented by accident, or some other cause, from carrying his intention into execution when the time he mentioned shall arrive. I think the subject however is introduced to the House, and, perhaps, it may consist with order to let the present application lie on the table until the business is taken up generally.

Mr. PAGE thought it the best way to enter the application at large upon the Journals, and do the same by all that came in, until sufficient were made to obtain their object, and let the original be deposited in the archives of Congress. He deemed this the proper mode of disposing of it, and what is in itself proper can never be construed into disrespect.

Mr. BLAND acquiesced in this disposal of the application. Whereupon it was ordered to be entered at length on the Journals, and the original to be placed on the files of Congress.

Duties on Tonnage.

The House then resumed the consideration of the Report of the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, in relation to the duty on tonnage.

Mr. JACKSON (from Georgia) moved to lower the tonnage duty from thirty cents, as it stood in the report of the Committee on ships of nations in alliance, and to insert twenty cents, with a view of reducing the tonnage on the vessels of Powers not in alliance. In laying a higher duty on foreign tonnage than on our own, I presume, said he, the Legislature have three things in contemplation: 1st, The encouragement of American shipping; 2ndly, Raising a revenue; and 3rdly, The support of light-houses and beacons for the purposes of navigation. Now, for the first object, namely, the encouragement of American shipping, I judge twenty cents will be sufficient, the duty on our own being only six cents; but if twenty cents are laid in this case, I conclude that a higher rate will be imposed upon the vessels of nations not in alliance. As these form the principal part of the foreign navigation, the duty will be adequate to the end proposed. I take it, the idea of revenue from this source is not much relied upon by the House; and surely twenty cents is enough to answer all the purposes of erecting and supporting the necessary light-houses. On a calculation of what will be paid in Georgia, I find a sufficiency for these purposes; and I make no doubt but enough will be collected in every State from this duty. The tonnage employed in Georgia is about twenty thousand tons, fourteen thousand tons are foreign; the duty on this quantity will amount to £466 13s. 4d. Georgia currency. I do not take in the six cents upon American vessels, yet this sum appears to be as much as can possibly be wanted for the purpose of improving our navigation.

I shall just mention to the House one observation more, to show that the produce of the Southern States cannot bear a high tonnage duty. The value of rice, tobacco, and indigo has fallen so much in foreign markets, that they are no longer worth the exportation. The merchants complain that they lose by those remittances; and they have now got into the practice of sending off specie; forty thousand dollars have been sent in one vessel. This is a daily practice, and we shall shortly have no specie left to pay our debts. The difficulty will be increased, as no money will remain to pay for the duties imposed on the articles imported. I hope the government will not insist upon our walking before we are able to creep, or compel us to make bricks without straw. These are my sentiments on the present question; if they have weight, the House will agree with me in reducing the duty; but if the House persist in continuing the high rates agreed to in committee, I shall content myself with having done my duty by warning them of the danger.

Mr. AMES.--I hope the reduction moved for by the gentleman who has just sat down will not be agreed to; for I trust the House is not satisfied with the reasons offered in its support. A great deal has been now said respecting the jealousy entertained of the advantages given by this preference to some States; a great deal was also said before the committee adopted the measure. I do not think this doctrine of jealousy is natural to us. I know it has been cultivated by the British, and disseminated through the United States; they had their particular views in exciting such ideas; but I do not believe, that because we have various we have opposite interests. Upon examination there will be found but few of our interests that clash with each other so much as to admit a well grounded jealousy. Nature has so arranged our circumstances, that the people of the several States pursue various employments which support each other. If one end of the continent is employed in manufactures and commerce, the other is attentive to agriculture; so far are they, therefore, from being rivals, that, both in a natural and political sense, they mutually are necessary and beneficial to each other's interests. I wish gentlemen, before they insist upon this jealousy, would point out the causes of its existence. So far from this being the case, I believe the individual interest of each part is compatible with the general interest; and that the public opinion is the same, is clearly demonstrated by the attachment professed by every part to remain in union--it is acknowledged, that on this principle our existence as a nation depends.

This being the case, I do not listen with any great degree of concern to arguments founded on that cause. So far from surveying the affluence or ease of my Southern brethren with the jaundiced eye of jealousy, I contemplate their prosperity with ineffable satisfaction. I look with an equal eye upon the success of every State through the whole extent of United America. I wish their interests to be equally consulted; and if I may judge of the feelings of the people, by those of their representatives on this floor, I may venture to say there was never less reason to apprehend discord or envy than at this time. I believe the fact is so, because I feel it. I appeal with confidence to the gentlemen round me, whether they have not found the disposition of those who were suspected most to favor navigation, ready to concede what was asked for the encouragement of every other interest? Whether a like conciliatory conduct has not been observed by the advocates of manufactures? I ask gentlemen, whether the language they have heard from the several parts of this House has not been much more congenial to their sentiments than they expected, and the measures pursued more coincident to their feelings than what they looked for? I believe, at the moment I am making this observation, the breasts of gentlemen beat in concert with it; I am sure my feelings accord most cordially in the sentiment.

I believe the encouragement of our navigation is looked upon to be indispensably necessary; its importance has never been denied. Now, I ask if gentlemen are inclined to support and extend our navigation, whether they are not willing to proportion the mean to the end, and adopt measures tending to increase the quantity of American shipping? It has been often justly remarked, that the Constitution, under which we deliberate, originated in commercial necessity. The mercantile part of our fellow-citizens, who are the firm friends to an equal and energetic government, hope the improvement of our navigation may obtain the attention of Congress; it is but justice that it be early attended to, and it will give general satisfaction to find it considered as an important object by the General Government. The most liberal of the friends of American commerce only wish for such regulations as may put our navigation on a footing with foreigners. If other nations have restricted our navigation by regulations or charges, we must restrict them by a tonnage, or some other duty, so as to restore an equality; but this will not be found to be the case in the present instance. The moderate and inconsiderable duty of thirty cents on foreigners in treaty, and fifty cents on others not in treaty, will not enable our vessels to go abroad with as much advantage as foreigners can come here; so that the proposed encouragement may perhaps fall short of procuring us a maritime strength equal to our national security.

The observations of gentlemen tending to show that one end of the continent will suffer more by the regulation contemplated by the House than the other, are, I conceive, not well founded. The price of freight will equalize itself. If the people of Carolina or Georgia pay a high freight in consequence of the tonnage duty, the State of Massachusetts must pay the same, or her vessels will go to the southward in search of freight, so that the Eastern States have no peculiar interest in the measure. It has been suggested, that because Massachusetts has foreign vessels in her employ, she cannot transport produce for others--Massachusetts, by reason of that influence which Britain has, is obliged to receive some of her supplies in foreign bottoms, but this is only a proof that the evil requires a remedy. I might here easily draw a picture of the distress to which the Eastern country is subjected for want of a protecting hand: her shipwrights are glad to work for two shillings and sixpence a day, or less, and less will not maintain them and their families. Their lumber is of no value, it lies rotting in the forests, for want of encouragement to frame it into ships; the other artisans are clamorous for employment, and without a speedy relief they will have to desert the country. I believe if this relief is extended to them, it will give a spring to their industry, and a little time will render them serviceable to their fellow-citizens in the South. They will find markets for their tobacco, which is now rotting, and their valuable productions will be transported to all parts of the globe. From these circumstances, I am led to beg gentlemen to consider, that the improvement and extension of our navigation is one of the most important objects that can come before the Legislature; that there are abundant proofs that a regulation in favor of American shipping is absolutely necessary to restore them to an equality with foreigners; and if they are convinced with me of its importance and necessity, they will not think the sums agreed to in committee too high for the purpose of protecting the navigation of the United States.

Mr. BURKE.--Something has been said relative to a jealousy subsisting in the Southern States respecting the navigation interest; I shall, therefore, make an observation or two on that subject. So far as my own knowledge of that country goes, I believe the citizens look with indignation at the power which foreigners have over their commerce. So far from being jealous of the Eastern States, they look forward to some future day when their navigation will be secured to that part of the Union. They know that it possesses superior maritime advantages, and expect they will hereafter afford security to them. They know, that from the spirit and industry of the people of New England, they may derive commercial and agricultural benefits. This is also my own judgment on the point. I know they cannot now supply us with vessels to transport our produce, but I hope the time will shortly come when they will have the ability; in the mean time, when I consider how much the Southern staples are fallen in price, and the great debts due in that country, I must say, that I fear a heavy tonnage will be attended with very dangerous consequences. There are very few foreigners but British come among us, and a high duty laid upon their ships will fall severely upon the planters. The Southern people are willing to render any assistance to increase the maritime importance of the Eastern States, as soon as they are able; if, therefore, a distant period is fixed for the commencement of the high duties, I shall be in favor of them; but if they are to take place immediately, I fear they will do a great deal of injury in the present deranged and calamitous situation of our country.

Mr. GOODHUE was glad to hear from the several parts of the House, that there was a disposition to give a preference to American shipping. This principle being fixed, it only remained for the House to ascertain the proper degree of encouragement to be given; the rate agreed to in the committee was not more than good policy required. The gentleman from Georgia fears that the people of his State will suffer for want of vessels, or pay a higher freight than their neighbors; but a high duty is not contended for in the first instance, it is only such a degree of encouragement as will enable us to enter into a competition with foreigners in our own carrying trade. The same gentleman has said, Massachusetts has not vessels enough for her own commerce, and, therefore, cannot furnish any for others; although Massachusetts employs 7 or 8,000 tons of foreign shipping; yet it is supposed she supplies the other States with 30,000 tons. The circumstance of 5,000 hogsheads of tobacco lying to rot for want of vessels, when some thousand tons of ours are idle for want of employment, does not prove the want of shipping, so much as that the price of the article is too high for a foreign market. If the produce is held so high as not to bear the expense of transportation, the merchants who import will be obliged to send off money in payment. In order to remedy these inconveniences in future, it will be necessary to hold out sufficient encouragement for the construction of vessels. Perhaps it may be good policy to allow a moderate tonnage duty at this time, to be increased hereafter.

Mr. MADISON.--I believe every gentleman who hears the observations from the different quarters of this House, discovers great reason for every friend of the United States to congratulate himself upon the evident disposition which has been displayed to conduct our business with harmony and concert.

We have evinced a disposition different from what was expected to arise from the different interests of the several parts of the Union. I am persuaded, that less contrariety of sentiment has taken place than was supposed by gentlemen, who did not choose to magnify the causes of variance; every thing we have hitherto done, tends to make this evident. The importance of the Union is justly estimated by all its parts; this being founded upon a perfect accordance of interest, it may become perpetual. I know that the point before us has often been selected as a proof that there was an incompatibility of interest in the United States. On this opinion I beg leave to remark, that the difference in point of capacity in the several States to build ships, and furnish seamen, is much less than has generally been supposed. From the extremity of the Northern States until we reach South Carolina, materials of all sorts for ship-building can be obtained in abundance from the bounty of nature; even Georgia abounds with materials of superior quality; although their population disqualifies them for ship-building at present, yet their advantages are such as to enable them in a short time to rival the most prosperous State. In the next place, I may remark, that so far as the encouragement of our own shipping will be given at the expense of the people of the United States, it will diffuse and equalize its operations in every part. The ships belonging to one place will, like the people, seek employment in another where better wages are obtained, and this, in its operations, will level any inequalities supposed to arise from legislative interference.

WEDNESDAY, May 6.

JOHN VINING, from Delaware, appeared and took his seat.

The bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States, was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.

On motion of Mr. SHERMAN, the House entered upon the consideration of the amendments of the Senate to the bill for regulating the time and manner of administering certain oaths.

The following amendments being before them, to wit:

"That the members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers of the several States, who have been heretofore chosen or appointed, or who shall be chosen or appointed before the first day of August next, and who shall then be in office, shall, within one month thereafter, take the same oath or affirmation, except where they shall have taken it before; which may be administered by any person authorized by the law of the State in which such office shall be holden to administer oaths. And the members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers of the several States, who shall be chosen or appointed after the said first day of August, shall, before they proceed to execute the duties of their respective offices, take the foregoing oath or affirmation, which shall be administered by the person or persons who by the law of the State shall be authorized to administer the oath of office; and the person or persons so administering the oath hereby required to be taken shall cause a record or certificate thereof to be made, in the same manner as, by the law of the State, he or they shall be directed to record or certify the oath of office."

Mr. GERRY said, he did not discover what part of the constitution gave to Congress the power of making this provision, except so much of it as respects the form of the oath; it is not expressly given by any clause of the constitution; and if it does exist, must arise from the sweeping clause, as it is frequently termed, in the eighth section of the first article of the constitution, which authorizes Congress "to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or office thereof." To this clause there seems to be no limitation, so far as it applies to the extension of the powers vested by the constitution; but even this clause gives no legislative authority to Congress to carry into effect any power not expressly vested by the constitution. In the constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, provision is made, that the members of the Legislatures of the several States, and all executive and judicial officers thereof, shall be bound by oath to support the constitution. But there is no provision for empowering the Government of the United States, or any officer or department thereof, to pass a law obligatory on the members of the Legislatures of the several States, and other officers thereof, to take this oath. This is made their duty already by the constitution, and no such law of Congress can add force to the obligation; but, on the other hand, if it is admitted that such a law is necessary, it tends to weaken the constitution which requires such aid; neither is any law, other than to prescribe the form of the oath, necessary or proper to carry this part of the constitution into effect; for the oath required by the constitution being a necessary qualification for the State officers mentioned, cannot be dispensed with by any authority whatever other than the people, and the judicial power of the United States, extending to all cases arising in law or equity under this constitution. The Judges of the United States, who are bound to support the constitution, may, in all cases within their jurisdiction, annul the official acts of State officers, and even the acts of the members of the State Legislatures, if such members and officers were disqualified to do or pass such acts, by neglecting or refusing to take this oath. He concluded his observations, by submitting to the House the propriety of appointing a Committee of Conference, to state to the Senate the doubts of the House upon this subject.

Mr. BLAND had no doubt respecting the powers of Congress on this subject. The evident meaning of the words of the constitution implied, that Congress should have the power to pass a law, directing the time and manner of taking the oath prescribed for supporting the constitution. There can be no hesitation respecting the power to direct their own officers, and the constituent parts of Congress; besides, if the State Legislatures were to be left to arrange and direct this business, they would pass different laws, and the officers might be bound in different degrees to support the constitution. He not only thought Congress had the power to do what was proposed by the Senate, but he judged it expedient also, and therefore should agree to the amendment.

Mr. JACKSON.--I believe this House, and the other branch of the Legislature, have the power, by the constitution, to pass a law, obliging the officers of the State Governments to take the oath required by the constitution that their States have adopted, and which has become the supreme law of the land. I believe the general opinion of the House inclines to favor this sentiment. It then only remains to examine the measure on the principle of policy. Here I must give my opinion. I believe, sir, that it is not time to bring it forward, that it is not expedient at present, because some jealousies exist respecting the jurisdiction of the Federal and State Governments. The States had better be left to regulate this matter among themselves, for an oath that is not voluntary is seldom held sacred. Compelling people to swear to support the constitution, will be like the attempts of Britain, during the late revolution, to secure the fidelity of those who fell within the influence of her arms, and, like those attempts, they will be frustrated; the moment the party could get from under her wings, the oath of allegiance was disregarded. If the State officers will not willingly pay this testimony of their attachment to the constitution, what is extorted from them against their inclination is not much to be relied on. Besides, it argues a jealousy in the National Government, which can have no foundation. Can any thing show more friendly to the Union than adopting the constitution, and sending us here to administer it? If we judge from these circumstances, there is good reason to believe that the State Governments will pay a proper attention to the duty enjoined upon them by the constitution. I shall readily agree, if they do not pay this attention, that the National Legislature ought to exercise its powers to compel them; but they know the necessity there is for conforming to what the constitution orders; if they neglect it, it becomes in some degree a relinquishment of their power in government. No State Legislature can pass an act that will have the efficacy of a law. Suppose a judge on the bench were to condemn a criminal to die for an offence; the sentence could not be carried into execution, if the judge had omitted to qualify himself for the discharge of the duties of his office. In short, there would be a total stagnation of the Government, its vital powers would be suspended, until they were revived by the action of the constitution. Besides, the constitution partakes of the nature of a compact; it guaranties to the State Governments the principles of a republican government, conditionally, that the States conform themselves to what is declared in the constitution; they must therefore take the oath directed by the constitution, or infringe the compact; in which case I apprehend, the guaranty is virtually withdrawn; this is another inducement for the States to perform their duty.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--I believe, Mr. Speaker, if there is any thing improper in making provision that the officers shall take an oath to support the Government, the fault cannot properly be charged upon us, because the provision is already made, and adopted by our constituents; and we are to suppose that some beneficial effects were intended by it; while we are reprobating the measure, let us take care we do not fall under the censure, which the observation of the gentleman last up brought to our view, of taking an oath, and neglecting to fulfil the duties enjoined by it. I believe, sir, that the persons who are to take this oath in conformity to the constitution, will conceive themselves, after having taken such oath, under an obligation to support the constitution. It has been said by one gentleman, that Congress have not the power to carry this regulation into effect. Only a few words will be necessary to convince gentlemen that Congress have this power. It is declared by the constitution, that its ordinances shall be the supreme law of the land. If the constitution is the supreme law of the land, every part of it must partake of this supremacy; consequently, every general declaration it contains is the supreme law. But then these general declarations cannot be carried into effect, without particular regulations adapted to the circumstances. These particular regulations are to be made by Congress, who, by the constitution, have power to make all laws necessary or proper to carry the declarations of the constitution into effect. The constitution likewise declares, that the members of the State Legislatures, and all officers, executive and judicial, shall take an oath to support the constitution. This declaration is general, and it lies with the supreme Legislature to detail and regulate it. The law is to supply the necessary means of executing the principle laid down; for how can it be carried into effect in any other manner? This explanation, I trust, convinces gentlemen that the power of enacting such a law exists in Congress. But whether it is good policy or not to do it, depends upon a variety of circumstances; for my own part, I think it prudent to make the necessary regulations for carrying into effect this part of the constitution.

Mr. SYLVESTER.--I am an advocate for supporting the dignity of the House, and to me it appears somewhat inconsistent that we should change our sentiments in order to conform to the amendment of the Senate, without knowing the reason upon which they have founded the proposed measure. No doubt but sufficient reasons have occurred to them, but none have appeared to this House. If we are to follow the Senate in all the alterations they propose, without hearing reasons to induce a change, our time in deliberation is taken up unnecessarily. With respect to any member of this House who has not taken the oath, I concur that they are to pay obedience to what the authority of the Legislature may order on this head. Nay, I am equally clear that the power to regulate the members of the State Governments in taking the oath, is either lodged with the Congress of the United States, or nowhere. But, it appears to me, that the State Legislatures have a concurrent power with Congress in this regulation, for the officers of the General Government and State Governments are called upon in the same manner: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by oath, or affirmation, to support the constitution." These are the words of that instrument. The question, then, is reduced to its expediency, whether it is good policy to exercise the power or not? I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, if we exercise this power, it may be considered an interference with the State Governments. I would rather leave them to their discretion, trusting they would come forward and take the oath; it is unnecessary for us to intermeddle, if they will conform to what is directed by the constitution. It appears to me most prudent, that, till we see a disposition in the State Governments to neglect this duty, we do not, by law, oblige them to perform it. I wish the Government to go on gradually in administering the constitution, and not give umbrage even to its enemies, by a compulsory act, when there appears no necessity for it.

I could not concur in the amendment proposed by the Senate, even if I considered it not inconsistent in the House to adopt a measure they had previously rejected, unless some good reasons were offered to show its propriety; not but if I have been mistaken, I am always ready to retract my error, upon better information.

Mr. SHERMAN was not afraid of being charged with inconsistency. He had voted against a similar clause when the bill was before the House, but he was convinced now of its propriety; he thought it more eligible to have a general provision for taking the oath, than particular ones. It also appeared necessary to point out the oath itself, as well as the time and manner of taking it. No other Legislature is competent to all these purposes; but, if they were, there is a propriety in the supreme Legislature's doing it. At the same time, if the State Legislatures take it up, it cannot operate disagreeably upon them, to find all their neighboring States obliged to join them in supporting a measure they approve. What a State Legislature may do, will be good as far as it goes; on the same principle, the constitution will apply to each individual of the State officers--they may go, without the direction of the State Legislature, to a justice, and take the oath voluntarily. This, I suppose, would be binding upon them. But this is not satisfactory; the Government ought to know that the oath has been properly taken, and this can only be done by a general regulation. If it is in the discretion of the State Legislatures to make laws to carry the declaration of the constitution into execution, they have the power of refusing, and may avoid the positive injunctions of the constitution. As our power in this particular extends over the whole Union, it is most proper for us to take the subject up, and make the proper provision for carrying it into execution, according to the intention of the constitution.

Mr. BOUDINOT wished to remove the gentleman's objections arising from inconsistency. The clause that was rejected by the Committee of the Whole on this bill, contained a penalty for the neglect of taking the oath as prescribed; but the amendment of the Senate was not objectionable on that account, because it contained no such provision.

As to the policy or expediency of the messure, he entertained not the least doubt respecting it. The constitution said only that the officers of Government should be bound by oath, leaving to Congress to say what oath. In short it was the duty of the House, as had been well said by the gentleman from New York, (Mr. LAWRENCE,) to detail the general principles laid down in the constitution, and reduce them to practice.

He would enforce the expediency of the measure with one further remark. Several of the State Legislatures were sitting at this time, and had expressed a wish or expectation that such a regulation would be made by the General Government; if from principles of false policy the measure did not take place, the State Legislatures might neglect it also, and it was well known that their officers cannot act without it; hence the legality of their acts may be called in question, and give cause to a great deal of uneasiness and confusion.

The question on concurring with the Senate in their amendments to the bill was carried, with an amendment, that the members of the State Legislatures be directed to take the oath at their next session respectively.

The bill was, by order of the House, returned to the Senate as amended.

THURSDAY, May 7.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, from the committee appointed to wait on the President of the United States, to know when it will be convenient for him to receive the address of this House, reported:

That the committee had, according to order, waited on the President, and that he signified to them that it would be convenient to him to receive the said address at 12 o'clock on Friday, at such place as the House shall be pleased to appoint: Whereupon,

Resolved, That as the Chamber designed for the President's receiving the respective Houses is not yet prepared, this House will wait on the President to present their address, in the room adjacent to the Representatives' Chamber.

Duties on Tonnage.

The House resumed the consideration of the report of the Committee of the Whole on the duty on tonnage. The proposition was to lay a duty of fifty cents per ton, on all vessels belonging wholly or in part to the subjects of all other Powers.

Mr. MADISON moved to reduce it to forty cents, and at the end of the year 1790, to increase it to seventy-five cents. He was satisfied to go as far as seventy-five, because he expected, under such encouragement, a sufficient number of vessels for the whole commerce of America might be constructed. If he was not too sanguine in this expectation, the measure would be both safe and expedient.

Mr. SMITH, (of Maryland.)--Both in Virginia and Maryland, British ships pay a higher duty than what is proposed; yet they continue to carry on an extensive trade in those States, which, in my opinion, proves those sums to be too low. American shipping derives considerable advantages from the regulations made in this respect by those two States. If that protection is withdrawn from them by the General Government, it will subject our commerce to very great inconveniences and absolute distress. I shall therefore be opposed to the reduction.

Mr. AMES.--The gentlemen from the southward, who suppose their States most likely to be affected by a discrimination in the tonnage duty, have concluded their arguments with a candor, which I conceive does honor to their patriotism. They declare themselves willing to encourage American shipping and commerce, though they do not join with us in the sum we think necessary to be laid on foreign tonnage to accomplish so important an object. If sufficient encouragement is given, and by our regulation American vessels are put on a footing with foreigners, I think we may flatter ourselves with the prospect of seeing our navigation immediately flourish. We have reason to expect a very considerable addition to our shipping in the course of one year. Experience has convinced us, that 25,000 tons can be built within double that period, by the town of Boston alone. The other ports in Massachusetts can furnish 37,000 tons, New Hampshire a considerable quantity, and if the other States furnish their proportion, we shall soon find ourselves independent of European nations for the transportation of our products. If forty cents at present, and the seventy-five cents in expectation, are thought a sufficient encouragement for the purpose, I shall not object to the motion.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--If it is intended to increase the duty at the expiration of two years, it is certainly proper to reduce it in the interim; but I very much question such policy. The business of ship-building, I conceive, stands at this moment in want of the greatest encouragement in our power to give. If sufficient encouragement is given, at this time, to produce a quantity of shipping adequate to the demand, when we once are in possession of them, the business will stand in need of no further encouragement. If the citizens of the United States were now in possession of a sufficient quantity of shipping, and had the ability to employ them, I conceive they would not stand in need of any encouragement whatever. But this is not the case, and therefore an encouragement is requisite. At the conclusion of the last war we were left without shipping, and from our inability to carry on commerce, by reason of the oppression we were subjected to by foreign powers, the building of vessels has made but slow progress in the several States. Hence it becomes necessary to give encouragement sufficient to induce merchants to vest a greater proportion of their capital in this way. The proposed encouragement is not very high, and even under it, I should not expect a quantity of shipping would be furnished equal to the demand, in less than four or five years. It would be brought forward by slow and gradual degrees; they will continue, year by year, to increase them, until the number is competent to the demand. The business of ship-building being so relaxed, persons of that occupation have turned to other avocations, and some sensible advantage must appear, to induce them to return to their original profession. A proof of this is evidenced by the situation of Philadelphia. Before the Revolution, 5,000 tons of shipping were annually built in that city; last year, the whole tonnage was but 1,300, so much has it declined there. If it revives from its present languishing condition, it must be by great fostering care and protection, and by slow and gradual degrees. It does not appear to me, that fifty cents are more than necessary for its immediate encouragement. Gentlemen will be pleased to recollect that it is always in the power of Congress to increase it.

Gentlemen will recollect, on the article of hemp, immediate encouragement was contended for. It was not opposed by the commercial gentlemen in this House. But without encouragement is given to building and fitting out ships, the demand for hemp will be small; for very little advantage will arise from exporting it: the great market must be furnished by ourselves. Upon the whole, I conclude against the motion, believing our ship-building to need encouragement more at this time than it will at any subsequent period.

Mr. JACKSON.--The gentlemen from Massachusetts have, I must own, behaved with liberality. One is willing to reduce the duty to forty cents, another gentleman is more liberal still--he is willing to go lower; but not so the gentlemen from Pennsylvania and Maryland; they are actuated by other principles. They call to my mind a passage of scripture, where a king, by the advice of inexperienced counsellors, declared to his people, "my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, but I will add to your burthens." A steady pursuit of this counsel brought about the separation of his kingdom. These gentlemen want us even to go further. They bring forward calculations upon the moment, and pass them for information,--the mere calculations of yesterday,--and demonstrate thereby the propriety of their measures. They may consider some States of less importance than others, because they do not contribute the same quantity of revenue; but let them remember, the widow's mite is as good as the rich man's coffers; so the mite of Georgia is equal to the revenue of Pennsylvania.

Mr. BURKE.--It has been observed, in the former part of the debate, that the people of the Southern States might buy ships, if they did not build them. There are none owned in Carolina: we are destitute both of ships and seamen, and unable to procure them; it would be folly in us, therefore, to burthen them with duties. Though it is true, that there are men there who live in affluence, are rich in lands and servants, yet I believe they are universally in debt. This may be fairly inferred from the laws they have made to favor debtors. It would take twelve years to enable people there to pay their State and private debts; they are therefore very unable to sustain any new burthens, especially when their produce is so fallen in price as not to pay the expense of cultivation. I do not say this is to be attributed to the want of vessels to carry it off, though there may probably be a great want in this respect; and if there is, gentlemen tell you they are unable to make up the deficiency. If this be the case, they ought to be contented with a moderate duty for the present; and as my mind is strongly impressed with the importance of encouraging the American navigation, I shall join them in doing something that may be productive of that effect.

Mr. MADISON.--As there is a great diversity of sentiment respecting the policy of the duty, I am very happy to find it is not prescribed by the geographical situation of our country. This evinces that it is merely difference of opinion, and not difference of interest. Gentlemen of the same State differ as much as gentlemen from the extremes of the continent. As no objection is made to giving some encouragement, we ought to endeavor to harmonize upon the quantum. I doubt very much if any proposition that can now be brought forward will coincide with the sentiments of this body more than the one that is before us. I am not anxious to reduce the encouragement too low, nor to throw to a very distant day the advanced rate intended by my modification of the measure; so gentlemen need not apprehend any evil to arise from its adoption.

Gentlemen who are opposed to giving sufficient encouragement to ship-building, ought to recollect an argument that was considered of weight in the case of encouraging manufactures. It is certain that manufactures have been reared up by the fostering care of the State Legislatures, displayed in the shape of protecting duties; but the people, by the adoption of this constitution, have put it out of their power to continue them. The provision for the support of navigation, made by the several States, ought to induce us to suppose even a higher tonnage duty pleasing to them, at least in those States where a higher tonnage duty has been laid. Those States not being able to continue their encouragement, expect that we will attend to their policy, and protect their citizens in the property they were led to acquire under the State regulations. If we disappoint them, they will suffer more than is consistent with good policy. I am not apprehensive that forty cents will be so low as to occasion any discontent.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)--Gentlemen have endeavored to persuade us, that a high tonnage duty will be beneficial to the Union; but I would as soon be persuaded to throw myself out of a two-story window, as to believe a high tonnage duty was favorable to South Carolina. Gentlemen tell us we are in great want of shipping and a navy--that sufficient encouragement for ship-building must be given before we can expect it; but I think, let the encouragement be what it may, many years will elapse before we have sufficient for the export of our commodities. I know Massachusetts cannot furnish us, because there are adventitious causes to prevent it. The course of the stream in which our navigation has so long flowed, cannot be altered in a day. The debts due from the merchants of that country to the British, will be an insuperable bar. Suppose they should send ships to transport our produce to a foreign market, they have no connections abroad to transact their business, no house in a commercial line to employ in the sales. What are they to bring back in return? They must come in ballast: and will the mere transportation of our crop be a sufficient inducement to engage them to come here? If they had more shipping than they wanted, we should still labor under the same difficulty, and employ foreigners; because the business is unchangeably in their hands, and the very moment the tonnage duty is increased, it will be an inducement to them to raise the price of freight.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--There have been circumstances mentioned in the course of this debate, which I think may be useful in ascertaining whether the proposed duty of fifty cents on tonnage be too high or not. It appears that there is a duty in Georgia equal to 1s. 8d. sterling; in South Carolina, 1s. 3d. besides something on goods imported in foreign bottoms; in Virginia and Maryland it is much greater. How, then, can gentlemen from those States contend that the proposed duty is so much too high as to occasion the fatal consequences they foretell? When we consider the valuable produce of the Southern States, we are led to believe that the difference of ten cents per ton can make no material difference in the price. Will it materially affect the price of rice or tobacco? Neither of these articles would pay more than five cents per cask, if the duty should be reduced.

The duty, therefore, cannot be fairly said to be too high for the Southern States; it is not contended to be too high for the middle ones; it is not too high for us.

If we consider the subject as it relates to revenue, it will form a material object for our attention; if the duty be considered as a bounty to the maritime States, it will be admitted that it is our interest to increase our navigation.

The regulation proposed by the gentleman from Virginia, to increase the duty to seventy-five cents at the end of two years, may never take effect; before that period arrives, a treaty may be formed with the nation that is our great commercial rival. I am, therefore, in favor of a permanent regulation, rather than one holding out an encouragement that will never take place.

Mr. JACKSON.--The gentleman last up thinks the reduction of ten cents will not materially affect the Southern States, yet he supposes it will injure ship-building: how it can hurt one interest by being reduced, and not wound the other by its increase, I do not clearly understand; for my part, I do not see the weight of such arguments.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--I consider the difference of ten cents to be too small for contention; the arguments of the gentlemen in opposition go as much against a duty of forty cents as against fifty.

Mr. PAGE.--I have heard all the arguments now brought against this measure, urged over and over again, when a tonnage duty was contended against in the same manner in Virginia. It was then merely a trial, but now we have the arguments resulting from experience in our favor. We find the British shipping still crowding our ports, although the tonnage duty is twice as great as is now proposed; and although the price of produce has fallen within that time, yet I am persuaded it must be attributed to other causes than this. Let the experiment be made with firmness, and I venture to say, it will turn out the same in other States as in ours. I acknowledge the gentlemen's arguments have weight, but they go against any tax whatsoever being laid on tonnage. But experience has demonstrated to us, that such a duty is attended with advantages; it will encourage ship-building, and render us independent for the transportation of our produce. Let, therefore, no suggestions of the kind that have been offered deter us from pursuing, with firmness and decision, the plan adopted by the committee.

Mr. WADSWORTH.--If the gentleman who has brought forward this proposition had proposed thirty cents instead of forty, I should have agreed to the motion, because it would have destroyed the discrimination between the vessels of nations in treaty, and those not in treaty with us; but in every other point of view, I should be against a reduction. Foreign vessels will be better circumstanced under a duty of fifty cents, than American free of duty. The charges on foreign bottoms in our ports are very small; there is not, I believe, a vessel of ours that goes to Europe, that does not pay, in light money and other charges, more than fifty cents per ton.

Mr. MADISON.--The subject of discrimination is not now within our view; it has been decided by a great majority; I think there were not more than nine members against it. I do not mean, by the arguments that I have urged, to prove that the increase of tonnage has a tendency to raise the price of freight: all my object has been to quiet the apprehensions of gentlemen who hold that opinion. I do not think it will keep away foreign vessels from visiting us, nor increase the burthen on our Southern commerce, so much as has been calculated; and even if it did, the extension of our navigation would be an adequate compensation. The price of freight before the late revolution was higher than it is at present; perhaps it may be lower when ships are furnished in larger quantities.

Mr. TUCKER.--I fear the gentlemen who look for a sufficient quantity of shipping to answer the demands of our commerce in so short a space as two years, will find themselves deceived. I think, therefore, it would be improper to lay a high tonnage duty, commencing at that period; if it appears expedient, a future Legislature may give such encouragement, but they are not bound to perform our engagement. After they have seen the effect of the present regulation, they will be better able to judge of what is right in this particular than we can do. I am doubtful whether the measure would place the United States in a better or worse situation than a duty of fifty cents; a commutation of this kind, in order to save ten cents for two years, and admit an addition of twenty-five cents for ever afterwards, appears a doubtful policy. At any rate, the Congress might feel themselves, in some degree, bound to raise the duty to seventy-five cents, when their judgments might tell them it was inexpedient--they will then have cause to complain of our anticipation. I should, I think, rather be in favor of fixing a certain tonnage duty at present, and leave it to the consideration of a future Legislature, whether to increase it or not, according to the circumstances of the case. I think thirty cents as much as can be given, with propriety, at this time; considering the interest of the State I have the honor to represent, I believe it will bear harder on some States than on others, acting partially and not generally. When I speak of the State I represent, I would not be thought actuated by improper motives; I think every gentleman is bound to support, in a proper manner, the interest he is well acquainted with, and believes to be conducive to the general welfare. A great deal has been said respecting the duties that have been laid on tonnage in the Southern States. I begged the attention of the House, on a former occasion, to a striking difference there is in duties imposed by the State, for its own particular advantage, and what are about to be laid for the benefit of the United States. Every duty imposed, I consider as a tax on the inhabitants of South Carolina. If that tax is to bear harder on them than on other States, I pronounce it unequal and unjust. I consider the tax on tonnage in this light; but as I am willing to give encouragement to our navigation, so I shall not oppose a moderate duty on foreign vessels; as I also conceive a discrimination proper between those nations in alliance with us and those with whom we have no treaties subsisting, I am disposed to admit a larger sum than thirty cents: I would propose thirty-five, upon the express condition of reducing the duty already agreed to, to twenty or twenty-five, when a bill shall come forward founded upon the principles now agreed to.

The question was here put on Mr. MADISON's motion and lost.

The House then decided upon the original proposition, which being agreed to, it was

Resolved, That there ought to be levied on all vessels entered or cleared in the United States, the duties following, to wit:

On all vessels built within the United States, and belonging wholly to citizens thereof, at the rate of nine cents per ton.

On all vessels not built within the United States, but now belonging wholly to citizens thereof, at the rate of six cents per ton.

On all vessels belonging wholly to the subjects of Powers with whom the United States have formed treaties, or partly to the subjects of such Powers, and partly to citizens of the said States, at the rate of thirty cents per ton.

On all vessels belonging wholly or in part to subjects of other Powers, at the rate of fifty cents per ton.

Provided, That no vessel built within the United States, and belonging to a citizen or citizens thereof, whilst employed in the coasting trade, or in the fisheries, shall pay tonnage more than once in any one year; nor shall any ship or vessel built within the United States pay tonnage on her first voyage.

Provided also, That no vessel be employed in the transportation of the produce or manufactures of the United States or any of them, coastwise, except such vessels shall be built within the United States, and the property of a citizen or citizens thereof.

The same was, on a question put thereupon, agreed to by the House.

Ordered, That a bill or bills be brought in pursuant to the said resolution, and that Mr. WADSWORTH, Mr. HEISTER, and Mr. SENEY, do prepare and bring in the same.[22]

FRIDAY, May 8.

The Speaker, attended by the members of the House, withdrew to the room adjoining the Representatives' Chamber, and there presented to the President of the United States the address agreed to on Tuesday last, to which he returned the following answer:

GENTLEMEN:

Your very affectionate address produces emotions which I know not how to express. I feel that my past endeavors in the service of my country are far overpaid by its goodness; and I fear much that my future ones may not fulfil your kind anticipation. All that I can promise is, that they will be invariably directed by an honest and an ardent zeal; of this resource my heart assures me. For all beyond, I rely on the wisdom and patriotism of those with whom I am to co-operate, and a continuance of the blessings of Heaven on our beloved country.

The Speaker and members being returned into the House:

Mr. GERRY, from the committee appointed, presented, according to order, a bill for collecting duties on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States; and the same was received and read the first time.

Ordered, That the Clerk of this House do procure one hundred copies of the said bill to be printed for the use of the members of this House.

On motion,

Ordered, That the committee appointed on the 29th ultimo, to report an estimate of the supplies requisite for the present year, and of the net produce of the impost, as agreed to by the House, be authorized and instructed to collect early and authentic statements of the particular articles of foreign produce and manufactures annually imported into, and of all the articles exported from, the several States, and the value of such imports and exports; also, the number of vessels, both foreign and domestic, entered and cleared during that time, specifying their tonnage, and the nations to which they respectively belong; specifying, also, the exact numbers of each particular description of vessels of each nation, and the amount of tonnage of each particular vessel.

Duties on Imports.

The House, according to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States.

Mr. PAGE in the chair.

Mr. TUCKER.--As I am desirous of beginning with moderate duties, I deem it proper, at this stage of the business, to offer my reasons in support of this opinion, that if it be the opinion of the committee, we may go uniformly through the list, and make the necessary reduction. I am opposed to high duties, particularly for two reasons: First, because they will tend to introduce and establish a system of smuggling; and, Secondly, because they tend to the oppression of certain citizens and States, in order to promote the benefit of other States and other classes of citizens. I cannot say I have a peculiar aversion to a high duty on distilled spirits; I may, therefore, be suspected of inconsistency in moving to reduce it; but I do it on the principle of a general reduction. If I do not succeed on the first article, I shall despair of succeeding on the others.

It appears to me that if we lay high duties on the importation of goods, a system of smuggling will be adopted before we can possibly make the necessary provision to prevent it. I take it, sir, that proper regulations respecting the collection is all our security against illicit trade. From a variety of circumstances, it appears to me, we shall not only be a long time in completing such a system, but, for want of experience, many of the regulations will be of a dubious propriety. Gentlemen will recollect we have an extensive sea-coast, accessible at a thousand points, and upon all this coast there are but few custom-houses where officers can be stationed to guard the collection of the duties; therefore, we labor under considerably greater disadvantages than a thicker settled country is liable to. I apprehend, if we consider the present state of our population, we shall conclude it impracticable to establish a sufficient number of custom-houses on those parts of the coast most assailable, to render us perfectly secure in the collection of our duties. If it were practicable, the expense would be a formidable objection; it would require more revenue to support such a system than all we shall derive from the impost. But we know in Great Britain where the duties are high, no expense is spared in the collection, yet smuggling is carried on to a very considerable amount; the risk run by this class of people is very great, the penalties are very severe, and the vigilance of the officers renders detection not very improbable. As this is the case, under the administration of a very powerful Government, I apprehend ours, which is only in its infancy, will be unable to prevent it taking place, otherwise than by a system of moderate duties. If we begin with laying them high, there will be an immediate temptation to engage in a system of smuggling, a system of which may soon be formed, so as to render our future efforts ineffectual; it is better to avoid the temptation, than to punish the evil. A man that is disposed to trade fairly, will be brought under the necessity of falling into the same practice, or giving up his business; for the higher the duty, the greater the advantage the smuggler has over the fair trader, being compelled by necessity to engage in a contraband trade, or to forego the means of a livelihood. Smuggling will be no longer dishonorable, no longer difficult, and none will be found opposing the practice; repeated efforts to corrupt will be successful among even the officers of your customs; they at first may resist the temptation, but when they find the practice general, their vigilance will wink at a contraband trade, and smuggling will be considered as a matter of course. They will consider the reward given them for being out of the way as a benefit to which they are entitled. For these reasons, I shall be against a system of high duties, and because I fear there is danger of a system of smuggling being introduced before proper arrangements are made to prevent it; or if we had time to make such arrangements, they must inevitably be ineffectual.

I would observe further, that a high duty not only tends to the encouragement of smuggling, but it likewise raises, in my mind, a scruple respecting the allowance of a drawback, as I conceive every drawback becomes an additional encouragement to smuggling. In many instances, I fear it may be found, that the drawback will amount to more than all the duties paid in the States which are entitled to it. Considering the situation of the States of North Carolina and Rhode Island, which are not in the Union, their contiguity to the other States will increase the facility with which smuggling can be carried on; it will be easy to import articles from Europe and the West Indies into their ports, and send them by land, or even water to the adjacent States. When these are smuggled into the United States, they may be re-exported and entitled to receive a drawback, although the revenue was not collected upon the importation. If we agree to moderate duties it will be much easier to regulate our system on this head; if our revenue is found not to be quite so productive as gentlemen calculate upon a system of higher duties, which, by the by, appears to me to be very unlikely, we shall be better able to judge what we can do after a trial, than we can possibly at present; at any rate, it will be but a small loss; whereas, by a large scale, we may throw the whole Union into confusion, and there will be no remedy by which we can recover what we have now in our power; for a reduction of duties, when they are once laid, is productive of the most serious consequences. Having, therefore, a strong impression upon my mind, that we hazard a great deal in imposing high duties in the first instance, I should not have been satisfied with having done my duty, if I had not stated my doubts and difficulties to the committee; but having done this, I shall content myself with their decision, be it what it may.

On motion, the further reading of the bill was postponed--adjourned.

SATURDAY, May 9.

JEREMIAH VAN RENSSELAER, from New York, appeared and took his seat.

The following communications were received from the Senate by Mr. Otis, their Secretary:

Mr. SPEAKER: The Senate have disagreed to the report of a committee appointed to determine what style or titles it will be proper to annex to the office of President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the constitution; and have appointed a committee to consider and report under what title it will be proper for the President of the United States in future to be addressed, and confer thereon with such committee as this House may appoint for that purpose. The Senate have also appointed a committee to view and report how the rooms in the City Hall shall be appropriated, and to confer with any committee this House may appoint for that purpose.

Duties on Imports.

The House, according to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States. Mr. PAGE in the chair.

Mr. TUCKER.--The observations I made yesterday were intended to apply generally against a system of high duties. As to the particular article of spirits, I have no objection to a high duty being laid upon it, provided it can be strictly collected; for I do not wish to give encouragement to the consumption of that article, though, I fear, no duty we can lay will tend much to discourage it. I thought that if it was the general opinion of the House to lessen the duties, it would be a saving of time to discuss it on a motion to reduce the first article. I repeat the observation, that high duties are improper, because they are impolitic, and likely to defeat the object of revenue: less will be collected on them than on moderate ones. If it be considered as an encouragement to manufactures to lay heavy duties on enumerated articles, it is a tax on one part for the emolument of another. Five per cent. upon all articles imported would raise a considerable revenue, and be a sufficient encouragement to manufactures, especially if we add to this five per cent. the expense of freight and other charges of importation on foreign goods. The five per cent. in the bill is to be collected on the value of the goods at the time and place of importation; the value of goods within the United States is twenty-five per cent. more than they cost in Europe; adding this therefore to the other advantages, and it will be a considerable encouragement; but, besides all this, there are many articles made here as cheap, and cheaper than they can be imported. Gentlemen, who have given us this information, know the fact to be so in their respective States; in them, therefore, the operation of the measure would be just and politic, but it does not apply with the same force as it respects South Carolina and some other States. Although in Boston and Philadelphia they can manufacture certain wares cheaper than they can import them, yet they are not brought at the same price to Charleston: hence the operation is unequal and a partial tax upon us. Another thing to be considered is, even if these articles could be furnished us at home as cheap as we get them from abroad, whether we should have equal advantages? If a cargo of nails were to be sent to Carolina, I would be glad to know how we are to purchase it? Would the makers of shoes be content to go there and retail them? If they would, they might be brought there; but I apprehend, if they have not established connections in that country, they could never be disposed of. Can they expect the planters to come in a body, and take off their goods upon their arrival? It is not even expected that they could; it must be left to them to judge, whether they do not purchase them in a better way, by taking them upon credit, and paying for them in their crop. Gentlemen will not pretend to say that we do not know our own interest, and therefore they will teach us. These reasons will not go down with the people; they will take to themselves the right of judging what is most conducive to their interests. Gentlemen cannot argue from the fact, that we do not consume the articles made within their States, as readily and willingly, as those imported from abroad, merely because we do not wish to encourage them. Facts prove the direct contrary: we have shown a disposition to encourage articles from their States which can be made in our State in great abundance. I will mention a few of them, although it may appear disgraceful for South Carolina to take from any country what she can furnish herself. We have imported to the city of Charleston vegetables for table use, which we can raise as well as any part of the world; yet no complaint was made by the agricultural interest of that State, that we imported foreign productions to their prejudice; no duty was imposed to discourage the use of them; all we considered was, whether they came cheaper when brought from abroad than when raised at home, concluding the cheapest to be the best.

On the same principles that are now urged, our citizens might have contended that we should impose a duty on all articles which could be produced at home. No imposition on the importation was laid in order to encourage the productions of our country; the same principle ought to have induced us to lay a duty on the importation of flour. We make but little of that; our constituents consume rice in place of it. It might have been said that a heavy duty should have been laid in order to prevent the interference with our staple commodity. The planters should have said, we will compel you to eat rice, and after being some time in the habit you will find you will like it as well as we; indeed, this argument might be extended to a measure calculated to oblige the other States to use rice in their daily food. It might be said, that it was necessary in order to give encouragement to the productions of the Southern States, but I believe such arguments would have had no weight if they had been used; yet they are similar to what have been brought forward by gentlemen for the encouragement of domestic manufactures.

Mr. Speaker, if gentlemen are content with moderate duties, we are willing to agree to them and give every reasonable encouragement in our power, but we cannot consent to very great oppression. I once more wish that gentlemen will consider great duties as imposing a heavier burthen upon the Southern States, as they import more, the other less; and the sum we pay towards the revenue must be in proportion to our importation. I therefore move, in order to begin with the first article, that distilled spirits be reduced six cents per gallon.

Mr. JACKSON seconded this motion, and would assign his reasons for it, but they had been so fully stated by the honorable mover.

Mr. AMES.--I wish the committee may consider, with the attention the subject demands, whether the duties are too high or not? It is hardly possible, I own, to contemplate this subject as a practical question. We shall find it necessary to consider attentively, before we proceed any further, what the objects of our Government are; and, having discovered them, we are to consider whether the proposed measure will answer the purposes intended. I believe in every point of view that we can possibly consider it, the subject of revenue will be thought to be one of the primary objects to which the power of Government extends. It has long been apprehended, that an ill administration of the new constitution was more to be feared, as inimical to the liberties of the people, than any hostility from the principles of the constitution. Of all the operations of Government, those which concern taxation are the most delicate as well as the most important. This observation applies to all governments. Revenue is the soul of Government, and if such a soul had not been breathed into our body politic it would have been a lifeless carcass, fit only to be buried. I would wish this soul might be actuated by rational principles, that, in establishing a revenue system, we might go on a superior principle to that which has heretofore been the governing principle in the United States; that we might consider what was most adequate to the object. The nature of the revenue system in this Government is to the last degree important; for want of the soul, the late Government was found utterly incapable of invigorating and protecting industry, or securing the Union; therefore these seem to be the great objects which we are to accomplish. I consider the present question as a direct application to the principles of the constitution; it will either support or destroy them. If the revenue system should fall with oppressive weight on the people, if it shall injure some in their dearest interests, it will shake the foundation of the Government. However the newspapers may stand your friends, and trumpet forth panegyrics on the new constitution, if your administration does not give satisfaction, you will find all ineffectual that they can do, whilst the people are against you. This being admitted, the Government will not push their regulations too far; they will consider the weaknesses and prejudices of the individual members of the Union. When they lay a tax, they will consider how far it is agreeable to them, and how far the measure is wise in itself. If it is said the article to be taxed is a luxury, and the Government is zealous to correct the vice, they will be careful they do not do it in too severe a manner; the principle would be capable of great expansion: all the enjoyments of social life are luxuries, and, as objects of revenue, we ought to set a price on the enjoyment, without suppressing their use altogether. Neither ought we to consider what the article in this point of view is able to pay, so much as what we may reasonably expect to collect from it.

Mr. MADISON.--The right understanding of this subject is of great importance. The discussion has been drawn out to a very considerable length on former occasions. The chain of ideas on which the subject is suspended, is not very long, nor consists of many links. The present constitution was framed to supply the defects of the one that has preceded it. The great and material defects of it are well known to have arisen from its inability to provide for the demands of justice and security of the Union. To supply those defects, we are bound to fulfil the public engagements; expectation is anxiously waiting the result of our deliberations; it cannot be satisfied without a sufficient revenue to accomplish its purposes. We cannot obtain the money any other way but by taxation. Among the various objects of this nature, an impost on merchandise imported is preferable to all others, and among the long list of articles included in the bill, there is not one more proper for the purpose than the article under consideration. The public sentiment has strongly pointed it out as an object of revenue. I conceive, therefore, that it will be our duty to draw from this source all the money that it is capable of yielding. I am sure that it will not exceed our wants, nor extend to the injury of our commerce. How far the powers of Government are capable of going on this occasion, is matter of opinion; we have had no direct experiment of what can be done under the energy and popularity of the new system; we must recur to other sources for information, and then, unless the circumstances are alike, the comparison may not be true. We have been referred to the experience of other nations; if that is to guide us on this subject, I am sure we shall find precedents for going much farther than is now proposed. If I do not mistake the calculations that I have seen of duties on importation, they amount to more on an average than fifteen per cent.; the duty on ardent spirits in all nations exceeds what is in contemplation to be laid in the United States. I am sensible that the means which are used by those nations to insure the collection, would be odious and improper in this country; but I believe the means which this country is capable of using, without exciting complaint or incurring too much expense, would be as adequate to secure a duty of fifteen per cent. as the powers of any other nation could be to obtain ninety or one hundred per cent. I pay great respect to the opinions of mercantile gentlemen, and am willing to concede much to them, so far as their opinions are regulated by experience; but if I am to be guided by this information, it will not lead me to agree to the reduction of the duties in the manner contended for. It is said, that if we reduce at all, we must go through the whole. Now I doubt whether the duty on the article of rum exceeds that proportion which pervades the long list before us. It does not amount to more than thirty per cent., while some other articles stand at forty; some articles again that are not enumerated, but which fall within the general mass at five per cent., are more likely to be introduced clandestinely than this article, if it stood at fifty per cent. I am sure, if we reduce the whole system in the manner now proposed, all the duty we shall be able to collect will be very incompetent to what the public necessities demand. We must turn our eyes, then, to some other source that will fill up the deficiency. There are but two objects to which in this dilemma we can have recourse--direct taxation and excises. Direct taxation is not contemplated by any gentleman on this floor, nor are our constituents prepared for such a system of revenue; they expect it will not be applied to, until it is found that sufficient funds cannot be obtained in any other way. Excises would give particular disgust in some States, therefore gentlemen will not make up the deficiency from that quarter. I think, upon the whole, it is better to try what will be produced by a plan which is favored by the public sentiment. This will give a support to our laws equal to the greatest energy of a strong execution. The citizens of America know that their individual interest is connected with the public. We shall then have the strong motive of interest acting in favor of the Government in a peculiar manner. But I am not inclined to trust too much to this security. I would take in the aid of the best regulations in our power to provide; these acting in concert, would give a moral certainty to the faithful collection of the revenue. But if gentlemen, notwithstanding, will persist in contending against such a system, and cannot offer us a substitute, we must fail of the primary object for which the Government was created. If upon experience we find that the duties cannot be safely collected, it may be proper to reduce them; but if we set them too low in the first instance, and they do not yield a sufficiency to answer the just demands of the public creditors and the expenses of Government, the public reputation must suffer.

Mr. BLAND.--I join with the gentlemen who are disposed to lower the duties. Although I feel the necessity we are under of raising revenue as much as any other gentleman possibly can, yet I think we ought to deliberate fully upon the means before we adopt them. It is demonstrable, nay it is self-evident, that laying high duties, in the first instance, will beget smuggling, and I fear our regulations, respecting the collection, will prove the impracticability of defeating the practice. But when we come to consider the subject in another point of view, I trust such a system will be found unnecessary. The enumerated articles in this bill are very numerous; they are taxed from fifty per cent. downwards; the general mass pays five per cent. The calculations made by the late Congress, who no doubt maturely considered the subject, found a list of eight articles only, and those at one-fourth or one-fifth of the rate now proposed, would produce a revenue of nine hundred and fifteen thousand six hundred and fifty-six dollars annually.

When we add to this calculation a circumstance of notoriety, the increase of our importation, we shall find that we levy, or mean to levy, greater sums than the public necessities require. There will not be found specie enough within the United States to pay the duties: four times the rate of what the former Congress recommended, will produce three millions six hundred thousand dollars. The enumeration is four times as great also; hence we may infer, that the amount will reach thirteen or fourteen millions. At least we shall be convinced that we are upon too high a scale. But where is the necessity of raising the impost to this degree? There are other means of revenue, and such as will not give disgust. We have already proposed a duty on tonnage; there is the post-office, and some other things which the ingenuity of Government can devise and is entitled to, for the purpose of revenue; if it is therefore unnecessary to levy such oppressive taxes, what other pretext can be set up for adopting the system? Independent of every other consideration, this ought to induce us to lower them. But there are other and weighty considerations; but as they have been well urged by the gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. AMES,) I shall not touch upon them. It is said, that it is merely matter of opinion whether they are too high or not; if so, let us be careful not to venture too far on such ground. It will be much better to reduce it in the manner proposed by the gentleman from South Carolina, and increase it hereafter, than strain the measure too high at present.

Mr. SHERMAN.--After this subject had been debated in a Committee of the Whole, and then in the House upon the report, and every argument that could be thought of had been urged, both on the general and particular amount of the duties proposed, and the probable effects of a deduction, I did not expect to have heard the same debate take place again. Gentlemen have a large field to display their abilities in, but I do not think it contains any new matter that will induce a single gentleman to alter his opinion on the subject. The great object is to raise a sum of money adequate to supply our wants; and let us dispute as we will about the mode, the fact is it must be raised. The people have sent their representatives here for this purpose; it is for their benefit that we raise the money, and not for any peculiar advantage to ourselves; the objects are to pay the debts, and to provide for the general welfare of the community. The first of these objects I take to be, that we pay our debts. There are very many meritorious characters who furnished us with essentials in the hour of imminent danger, who, from the imbecility of our former Government, have not been able to get even the interest of what they loaned us. I believe it is the first wish of the people throughout the United States to do justice to the public creditors, and to do it in such a manner, that each may contribute an equal part according to his abilities. We have very considerable arrearages due on this account, upon not only the domestic but foreign debt; there are several instalments not yet discharged, and considerable of the interest not yet paid. No statement can be made of the expenses of Government, so as to ascertain what quantity of revenue will be demanded on that head, but saying that they will be much the same under this Government as the former, and we shall have occasion for a very considerable sum to defray the expenses. I believe we are not able to make a very accurate calculation of what the system, proposed in the bill, will yield. The late Congress contemplated a million of dollars from this source, which, in aid of the requisition, they supposed sufficient for the purpose of paying the instalments of the national debt and interest; but that sum alone will now be found very short of what is wanted without the aid of direct taxes. It is very material that we lay the burthen as equal as possible, in whatever mode we pursue to obtain revenue: a great deal of care has been taken in distributing the proportion with equity; I apprehend, therefore, that we shall not be able to make it much more equitable by any alteration than it is at present. I think, also, that the people will pay more freely a duty of this nature than they will in direct taxes. If gentlemen prevail in getting the duties lowered to what the late Congress proposed, they will find themselves obliged to have recourse to direct taxation for a million and a half, or two millions of dollars. It then only remains for us to consider, whether it will be more agreeable to the people to reduce the impost in this manner, and raise the deficiency by direct taxes. If these duties are to be considered as a tax on the trading part of the community alone, they are improper; but this I believe is not the case; the consumer pays them eventually, and they pay no more than they choose, because they have it in their power to determine the quantity of taxable articles they will use. A tax left to be paid at discretion must be more agreeable than any other. The merchant considers that part of his capital applied to the payment of the duties the same as if employed in trade, and gets the same profit upon it as on the original cost of the commodity.

Mr. WHITE.--When this system first came before the committee, I was opposed to enter into an enumeration, because I supposed much time would be taken up in the discussion, which would be an absolute loss of revenue, perhaps to a greater amount than the difference between the duties of such a system and the one proposed by the late Congress; but as it was thought proper by the committee to proceed in the way that we have done, it would be presumption in me to say, that the duty on every article has been perfectly digested and properly laid, but I believe every article stands as well as can be upon the information we are in possession of. I believe very few, if any, of the articles can be disapproved of.

Mr. AMES.--The gentleman from Pennsylvania set out with informing us that nothing new had or could be offered on the subject, yet you found, Mr. Chairman, the gentleman had a good deal to say, which I thought new and much to the purpose. As to applying the observation to myself, in common with the advocates for low duties, I shall decline it, only noting that the long discussion which the subject has had, would restrain me from rising on this occasion, more than any remarks of the nature made by the gentlemen from Pennsylvania and Connecticut; but I am actuated by higher motives than a regard to my own feelings, otherwise I should come reluctantly forward to press arguments which the committee may be fatigued with listening to. But I feel such strong impressions on my mind, with regard to the effects our impost law is likely to produce, that I cannot pass it over with a silent vote. I must admonish gentlemen, that the events which may result from our present measures are of the most alarming nature. When I was up before, I endeavored to show the degree of power the Government could exercise without being charged with an ill administration. I shall now proceed briefly to consider the arguments used in reply to what has been advanced by the advocates for moderate duties. I believe it is a good rule to judge of the strength of a cause by the arguments used to defend it; and here I must take the liberty of saying, that the gentlemen on the other side of the question have adduced not one to support their opinion that has carried conviction to my mind. I consider that, by a decision of this question, the good which the new Government is expected to produce may be rendered problematical. Though I am fully impressed with the necessity there is for revenue to supply the public expenses, yet I cannot believe we are likely to obtain more by heavy duties than by temperate ones, and it is to this point that my arguments tend. I do not believe that in either case we shall procure fully sufficient to supply the public demands. If we have to procure 8,000,000 dollars, I venture to say, not near the half could be raised by an impost system; but admitting that it could by a high scale of duties for the first year, it could not be done in the subsequent ones. Now I regard this as a permanent system of revenue, rather than a productive one; if it is laid high, you will find your collection annually diminish. Now, will any Government take such measures in gathering in its harvest, as to ruin the soil? Will they rack-rent their tenants in such a manner as to deprive them of the means of improving the estate? Such can never be the policy of this enlightened country. We know, from the fundamental principles of republics, that public opinion gives the tone to every action of the Government--the laws ought to correspond with the habits and manners, nay, I may almost add, wishes of the people. Well, Mr. Chairman, we are told a tax upon rum is popular; I will agree with the gentlemen; but still a high duty will induce people to run it, and though the consumer may pay the tax without complaining, yet it will go into the pockets of individuals who defraud your revenue. Gentlemen have complained that we do not offer a substitute for what we find fault with. I will endeavor to explain a system I would place in the room of this. I would reduce the duties generally so low as to hold out no encouragement to smuggling; in this case, it is more than probable, the amount of the impost, at the end of one year, would exceed the collection under the present rate. By giving this proof of moderation and wisdom, we should obtain the public favor and confidence; the Government would be acquiring strength, its movements would be more certain, and we could in every subsequent year extend the system, and make the whole productive; then it would be in the power of Government, by aids, to improve our agriculture, manufactures, and commerce. Our imports are now very great; by the increase of our commerce, we shall probably find our revenue produce twice as much seven years hence as it can be expected to do at present.

Mr. MADISON.--Let us compare the probable amount of the revenue proposed to be raised by this system, with what is raised in Great Britain, and we shall be apt to infer that they are not so oppressive as gentlemen seem to insinuate. Taking the highest estimate that I have heard mentioned, and it will not produce three millions of dollars. The population of the United States exceeds three millions of souls, hence the tax does not amount to one dollar per head. Great Britain, on the highest estimation, does not contain eight millions of inhabitants, and has an annual revenue to provide of thirteen millions sterling. It is true, she has recourse to other means besides an impost for the purpose of obtaining such a revenue; but those other means are certainly more objectionable in that country, and would be much more so here. Each individual of that kingdom pays eight times as much as is required by the United States; now, where is the propriety of making a comparison between them?

Mr. BALDWIN asked if the Government of the United States of America was four or five times worse to be administered than the Governments in Europe? Whether the public opinion was four or five times more unfavorable to such an administration? If these questions are answered in the affirmative, then the inferences which gentlemen have drawn, of the impracticability of collecting the duties laid in the bill, are just. But this is not allowing the General Government the common chance of executing its laws. If it were the worst Government on earth, it might be allowed a chance of doing one quarter of what others perform. If we find by experience, that we are too weak to execute a system which is so much easier than other nations have adopted, it may be proper to alter it. We shall be better able to judge how far we are likely to succeed, when the bill for the collection of the revenue is brought forward. Such a bill is now in the hands of a committee, and it is to be hoped, when they report it, it will be found sufficient to insure the collection; till then, it will be best to continue the rate as it stands.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--When we consider the arguments of gentlemen on both sides of this question, we shall find they do not differ so much as, on a superficial view, gentlemen may be led to imagine. It is agreed, that a revenue must be obtained adequate to our wants; but some gentlemen think we shall not receive a greater sum, because we lay a high duty; in this opinion I am with them. I think the present is a favorable time to lay an impost duty, and expect very considerable aid from the public spirit; but I am in favor of a low duty, because I would do nothing to check that spirit. If we lay high duties, and a man finds smuggling the most profitable business he can follow, we shall have to contend with private interest. If we lay a light duty of thirty or forty per cent., the temptation will be too strong for resistance, and the sum collected may not amount to ten per cent. on the whole importation; whereas, if we lay twenty or fifteen per cent. the whole may probably be collected, and the treasury be better filled, because it does not hold out so strong an inducement to evade the payment of the duties.

Another objection has been stated, which is of great weight: a system of high duties will necessarily engage us in a system of drawbacks. If we are forced into this measure, it will be a great injury to the revenue.

We ought also to consider the inconvenience to which high duties will subject our merchants. It is a common case in America, that our mercantile capitals are limited. Gentlemen engaged in commerce can ill spare so large a proportion in the payment of duties.

It has been mentioned by gentlemen, that Great Britain collects four shillings sterling per gallon on rum; yet she is exposed to great difficulties in obtaining it. But I ask gentlemen, whether Great Britain ever laid such a high duty in the first instance, as we are about to impose? I believe they did not: they began, I apprehend, with moderate duties, and increased them as circumstances authorized, when the people became habituated to the imposition. This is the very principle I wish to adopt, and show the world that our conduct is founded in wisdom, propriety, and experience. If we shall discover our mistake in laying high duties, and are driven by necessity to reduce them, such measures will operate to the injury of the fair trader; whereas, if we increase them by degrees, it will be rather favorable to their interest than otherwise; at all events, it will injure none.

If a sense of the committee could be obtained on a general reduction of ten or fifteen per cent. on the rate the articles now stand at, I should be glad to vote in favor of such a motion; but I could not approve of reducing the article of rum alone, because I do not think it charged out of proportion with the others.

Mr. JACKSON differed from his colleague, (Mr. BALDWIN.) He thought, although the British laid four shillings on rum, they did not collect it; and that their custom-house establishments were so expensive, as to leave a mere trifle for the net produce of the impost duty. If America employed such a host of revenue officers as to secure the payment of high duties, there would be very little left, after compensating their services, to supply the federal treasury.

Mr. WADSWORTH desired gentlemen to consider, that the citizens of the United States owned vessels as well calculated for smuggling, as any that were employed between the Netherlands and England; therefore, they had little more security against smuggling than Great Britain.

Mr. JACKSON.--It was well observed by the honorable gentleman from Connecticut, (Mr. WADSWORTH,) that America has vessels well adapted for smuggling: I can declare it, from my own knowledge, to be the fact. It is not, Mr. Chairman, the large vessels coming off long voyages that we are to apprehend danger from; it is our coasters, small vessels constantly coming in and going out; these can run goods from foreign ports adjacent to the United States; they are best acquainted with the unfrequented parts, where they can deposit their cargoes with safety, and will make use of these advantages to defraud your revenue.

With regard to the equity of the impost system, I conceive direct taxation will be more equitable. We, in the Southern States, shall then pay in proportion to our numbers; but under this law we shall contribute much more.

Gentlemen talk of improving the morals of the people by taxation. For my part, I conceive revenue has nothing to do with the morals of the people; therefore, such considerations have no weight on my mind. All that I contemplate is, drawing as much money as we can with equity; and here I believe more can be obtained by a less impost than by a greater; therefore, I am in favor of reducing the duties. It will likewise be more honorable to the Government to begin gradually and win the affections of the people, rather than disgust them by oppressive measures; for if we lose their confidence, we lose our power and authority.

Mr. GERRY.--It appears to me, that gentlemen place their arguments on the name of high duties, rather than on principle; for if they were certain that the energy of Government would effect all they aspire at, then it would follow, that we have nothing more to do than to name the sum we want. But if these ideas are not well supported, the superstructure they have raised upon them must fall to the ground. The energy of your Government depends upon the approbation of the people. No doubt the citizens of the United States will support the Government they have adopted, so long as they approve the measures it pursues, but no longer. Gentlemen trust much, on this occasion, to the co-operation which they expect from their constituents; but I would wish them to examine this argument. These duties are to be collected from the several States into which certain goods are imported. If the people of Massachusetts shall conceive any particular duty peculiarly oppressive on them, they will seek to evade it. This opens a door for smuggling all the other articles.

I conceive gentlemen to be mistaken with respect to the effects which high duties will produce on the mercantile interest. I think there cannot be a doubt but they will be obliged to smuggle; if they mean to continue their business, their capital will be insufficient for the purposes of commerce and the payment of high duties. Gentlemen will not draw knowledge from the experience of Great Britain; therefore, it is unnecessary to adduce her example. But let us see what we are taught by the practice of our own States. Massachusetts drew a very considerable revenue from an impost; she lately tried to increase it by doubling the duties; but, instead of doing so, they found the revenue lessened, and they were obliged to alter what they had so injudiciously attempted. I am willing to suppose with gentlemen, that the Government is invested by the constitution with sufficient energy to carry any regulation of this kind into effect; but is this the time to try the energy of your Government, when your commerce is struggling with every kind of difficulty and embarrassment? Formerly our merchants were able to extend their operations by the means of an established credit in Britain; but unfortunately this is no longer the case. How, then, is it possible they can continue their trade, when you lop off another part of their capital? Besides, as was said by the worthy gentleman from Virginia (Mr. BLAND), there is not money enough in the United States to pay the duties. I believe it is well known, that our commerce is greatly distressed by the universal want of specie; there has not been less in circulation for many years than there is at this time. Gentlemen who have property cannot convert it into money; then how will the merchant be able to raise cash for the payment of duties equal to thirty or forty per cent. on his capital? These are serious and alarming circumstances, and such as prove to my mind that the commerce was never less able to bear a high impost than at present, nor ever stood in greater need of the fostering hand of Government for its support. If gentlemen are convinced of the truth of these observations, and they are so notorious that they cannot have escaped the knowledge of any one, they will see the necessity of turning their attention to the encouragement of navigation and trade, rather than think of drawing an oppressive revenue from them.

Mr. MADISON submitted, whether the burthen would not operate more on the Southern States than the Northern. The duties could be collected in the Middle States--this was proved by the experience of some years; for they had collected in those States, in many instances, duties nearly equal to what were proposed. In the Eastern States, it was the interest of the manufacturers to see the duties were well collected; they had been imposed to favor their interests. The distillers would exert themselves in aiding the Government to collect the duty on foreign rum, because it particularly interfered with country rum; from hence he concluded that the impost could be collected with tolerable certainty even in that country most convenient for carrying on a clandestine trade.

Mr. AMES contended that it would be the particular interest of one set of men to evade the payment of the duties. As mankind was governed by interest, it required all the attention of the Government to prevent a breach of the law; because, when the banks and bulwarks of defence were once broken down, the full tide of clandestine commerce would overflow the country. Gentlemen recollected the circumstances which attended the depreciation of the late continental money. Some persons, from motives of interest or necessity, first made a distinction between it and specie, and although every exertion was made by the patriotic among our citizens to prevent the alarming evil, yet every thing was insufficient; they were at length obliged to acquiesce in measures they could not prevent. This was the case on that occasion, and will be the case whenever our laws or regulations run counter to private interest.

Mr. SHERMAN.--The gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. AMES) has said, that because we cannot raise the whole sum necessary to supply our wants, we should be content to stop half way. I know we shall not be able to obtain money enough by the impost to pay off our whole debt, but then I wish to raise as much as possible in this way. I believe the people are able to pay as much as the necessities of the Government require; if they are not, we shall never restore the public credit, which is one of the chief ends of our appointment. I believe they are not only able but willing to contribute sufficient for this purpose. The resources of this country are very great, if they are properly called into action; and although they may not be so great as those of Britain, yet it should be remembered, that nation has occasion for twelve times as much revenue as the United States.

Gentlemen have had recourse to popular opinion in support of their arguments. Popular opinion is founded in justice, and the only way to know if the popular opinion is in favor of a measure, is to examine whether the measure is just and right in itself. I think whatever is proper and right, the people will judge of and comply with. The people wish that the Government may derive respect from the justice of its measures; they have given it their support on this account. I believe the popular opinion is in favor of raising a revenue to pay our debts, and if we do right, they will not neglect their duty; therefore, the arguments that are urged in favor of a low duty will prove that the people are contented with what the bill proposes. The people at this time pay a higher duty on imported rum than what is proposed in this system, even in Massachusetts; it is true, it is partly laid by way of excise, but I can see no reason against doing it in this way as well as the other.

Mr. LAWRENCE.--It has been intimated by gentlemen in favor of high duties, that it will limit the consumption of foreign articles; if this be the case, the quantity imported will be lessened; if it is our object to raise revenue, it is certainly unwise to destroy the object from which the revenue is to be collected. It is supposed the amount of the duties will be insufficient to answer the public wants; and yet the public creditors have great expectations from this resource. Let us therefore be careful how we destroy it; if revenue is our primary object, and the other considerations but secondary, we should do nothing to operate against that principle.

Mr. MADISON.--It does not follow, because it will in some degree limit the consumption, that we ought not to lay a high duty on rum; if it has that effect, it will be an ample compensation for the loss of revenue; but probably, as we extinguish our debt, we shall have the less occasion for the revenue itself.

Mr. GOODHUE.--The object of the committee is to raise revenue, I take it. This would, perhaps, be best done by reducing the duty, but I am not inclined to reduce it so low as some gentlemen seem to desire; it may be reduced a few cents, and therefore I move to insert ten instead of twelve.

The question was taken for striking out the twelve cents, as it stood in the bill, on all spirits of Jamaica proof, imported from the dominions of nations in alliance with the United States, in order to leave it blank, to be filled up hereafter.

The House divided on the question; 19 in favor of the motion, and 26 against it.

So it passed in the negative.

Adjourned.

MONDAY, May 11.

On Titles.

The House took into consideration the message from the Senate, communicated on Saturday last, respecting the disagreement of the Senate to the report of a joint committee, on the subject of annexing titles to the offices of President and Vice President.

Mr. PARKER moved a resolution to the following effect:

Resolved, That this House having, on Tuesday last, adopted the report of their committee appointed to confer with a committee of the Senate, stating, "That it is not proper to annex any style or title to the respective styles or titles of office expressed in the constitution;" and having, in their address to the President of the United States on Friday last, proceeded to act pursuant thereto, deem it improper to accede to the proposition made by the Senate, as communicated by their order of the 9th instant, for appointing a committee to confer with a committee of this House, in considering and reporting under what title it will be proper for the President of the United States in future to be addressed.

Mr. PAGE seconded the motion, observing, that in his opinion, the House had no right to interfere in the business: the constitution expressly prescribed the power of Congress as to bestowing titles. He did not conceive the real honor or dignity of either of those situations to consist in high sounding titles. The House had, on a former occasion, expressed their disapprobation of any title being annexed to their own members, and very justly too. After having so fully and explicitly declared their sentiments against such measures, he thought it behooved them to be explicit with the Senate. Indeed, he felt himself a good deal hurt, that gentlemen on this floor, after having refused their permission to the Clerk to enter any more than their plain names on the journal, should be standing up and addressing one another by the title of "the honorable gentlemen." He wished the practice could be got over, because it added neither to the honor nor dignity of the House.

Mr. LEE approved of the appointment of a committee to confer with a committee of the Senate, as to the mode due to the occasion; but he was against adding any title.

Mr. TUCKER.--When this business was first brought before the House, I objected to the appointment of a committee to confer with a committee of the Senate, because I thought it a subject which this House had no right to take into consideration. I then stood single and unsupported in my opinion, but have had the pleasure to find since, that some gentlemen on this floor agree that I was right. If I was then right, I shall, from stronger reasoning, be right now in opposing the appointment of another committee on the same subject. The joint committee reported that no titles ought to be given; we agreed to the report, and I was in hopes we should have heard no more of the matter. The Senate rejected the report, and have now sent us a resolution, expressive of a determination to give a title, to which they desire our concurrence. I am still of the opinion that we were wrong in appointing the first committee, and think that we shall be guilty of greater impropriety if we now appoint another. What, sir, is the intention of this business? Will it not alarm our fellow-citizens? Will it not give them just cause of alarm? Will they not say, that they have been deceived by the convention that framed the constitution? That it has been contrived with a view to lead them on by degrees to that kind of government which they have thrown off with abhorrence? Shall we not justify the fears of those who were opposed to the constitution, because they considered it as insidious and hostile to the liberties of the people? One of its warmest advocates, one of the framers of it, (Mr. Wilson, of Pennsylvania,) has recommended it by calling it a pure democracy. Does this look like a democracy, when one of the first acts of the two branches of the Legislature is to confer titles? Surely not. To give dignity to our government, we must give a lofty title to our chief magistrate. Does the dignity of a nation consist in the distance between the first magistrate and his citizens? Does it consist in the exaltation of one man, and the humiliation of the rest? If so, the most despotic government is the most dignified; and to make our dignity complete, we must give a high title, an embroidered robe, a princely equipage, and, finally, a crown and hereditary succession. Let us, sir, establish tranquillity and good order at home, and wealth, strength, and national dignity will be the infallible result. The aggregate of dignity will be the same whether it be divided among all, or centred in one. And whom, sir, do we mean to gratify? Is it our present President? Certainly, if we expect to please him, we shall be greatly disappointed. He has a real dignity of character, and is above such little vanities. We shall give him infinite pain; we shall do him an essential injury. We shall place him in a most delicate and disagreeable situation; we shall reduce him to the necessity of evincing to the world his disapprobation of our measures, or of risking some diminution of that high reputation for disinterested patriotism which he has so justly acquired. It is not for his gratification; for whose, then, are we to do this? Where is the man among us who has the presumption and vanity to expect it? Who is it that shall say--for my aggrandizement three millions of people have entered into a calamitous war; they have persevered in it for eight long years; they have sacrificed their property, they have spilt their blood, they have rendered thousands of families wretched by the loss of their only protectors and means of support? This spirit of imitation, sir, this spirit of mimicry and apery will be the ruin of our country. Instead of giving us dignity in the eye of foreigners, it will expose us to be laughed at as apes. They gave us credit for our exertions in effecting the revolution, but they will say that we want independence of spirit to render it a blessing to us.

Mr. TRUMBULL moved for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, to consider on the difference which appeared in the votes of the two Houses upon the report of the joint committee.

Mr. BURKE hoped the House would express their decided disapprobation of bestowing titles in any shape whatever; it would be an indignity in the House to countenance any measures of this nature. Perhaps some gentlemen might think the subject was a matter of indifference; but it did not appear to him in that light. The introduction of two words which he could mention into the titles of these officers, would alter the constitution itself; but he would forbear to say any thing further, as he had a well-grounded expectation that the House would take no further notice of the business.

Mr. GOODHUE thought the conference unnecessary, because the House had not only adopted the report of their committee, but proceeded to act in pursuance thereof.

Mr. SENEY joined the last gentleman in sentiment, and thought it an unnecessary waste of time to give the subject any longer discussion.

Mr. MADISON.--I may be well disposed to concur in opinion with gentlemen that we ought not to recede from our former vote on this subject, yet at the same time I may wish to proceed with due respect to the Senate, and give dignity and weight to our own opinion, so far as it contradicts theirs, by the deliberate and decent manner in which we decide. For my part, Mr. Speaker, I do not conceive titles to be so pregnant with danger as some gentlemen apprehend. I believe a President of the United States, clothed with all the powers given in the constitution, would not be a dangerous person to the liberties of America, if you were to load him with all the titles of Europe or Asia. We have seen superb and august titles given, without conferring power and influence, or without even obtaining respect. One of the most impotent sovereigns in Europe has assumed a title as high as human invention can devise; for example, what words can imply a greater magnitude of power and strength than that of High Mightiness? This title seems to border almost upon impiety; it is assuming the pre-eminence and omnipotence of the Deity; yet this title, and many others cast in the same mould, have obtained a long time in Europe, but have they conferred power? Does experience sanction such an opinion? Look at the republic I have alluded to, and say if their present state warrants the idea.

I am not afraid of titles, because I fear the danger of any power they could confer, but I am against them because they are not very reconcilable with the nature of our Government or the genius of the people. Even if they were proper in themselves, they are not so at this juncture of time. But my strongest objection is founded in principle; instead of increasing, they diminish the true dignity and importance of a republic, and would in particular, on this occasion, diminish the true dignity of the first magistrate himself. If we give titles, we must either borrow or invent them. If we have recourse to the fertile fields of luxuriant fancy, and deck out an airy being of our own creation, it is a great chance but its fantastic properties would render the empty phantom ridiculous and absurd. If we borrow, the servile imitation will be odious, not to say ridiculous also; we must copy from the pompous sovereigns of the East, or follow the inferior potentates of Europe; in either case, the splendid tinsel or gorgeous robe would disgrace the manly shoulders of our chief. The more truly honorable shall we be, by showing a total neglect and disregard to things of this nature; the more simple, the more republican we are in our manners, the more rational dignity we shall acquire; therefore, I am better pleased with the report adopted by the House, than I should have been with any other whatsoever.

The Senate, no doubt, entertain different sentiments on this subject. I would wish, therefore, to treat their opinion with respect and attention. I would desire to justify the reasonable and republican decision of this House to the other branch of Congress in order to prevent a misunderstanding. But that the motion of my worthy colleague (Mr. PARKER) has possession of the House, I would move a more temperate proposition, and I think it deserves some pains to bring about that good will and urbanity, which for the despatch of public business ought to be kept up between the two Houses. I do not think it would be a sacrifice of dignity to appoint a Committee of Conference, but imagine it would tend to cement that harmony which has hitherto been preserved between the Senate and this House; therefore, while I concur with the gentlemen who express, in such decided terms, their disapprobation of bestowing titles, I concur also with those who are for the appointment of a Committee of Conference, not apprehending they will depart from the principles adopted and acted upon by the House.

Mr. WHITE did not approve of a Committee of Conference, because the House had already determined the question by unanimously adopting the report of the joint committee. He did not think that it was worth while having the subject longer contested; he was satisfied both the spirit of the constitution and the spirit of the people disapproved of titles.

Mr. BLAND would be careful of giving umbrage to the Senate, because he wished that the unanimity and moderation which subsisted between the two Houses might continue. He considered the present as a very proper opportunity for the appointment of a Committee of Conference. The two Houses had disagreed on the report of their committees; it was proper, therefore, that they should mutually assign their reasons, in order to bring about an agreement to the same resolution. He hoped, therefore, that such a committee would be appointed, though he had no expectation that the House would give up an opinion they so justly and decidedly entertained respecting titles.

Mr. PARKER wanted to know what was the object of gentlemen in the appointment of a Committee of Conference? The committee could only say that the House had refused their consent to annexing any titles whatever to the President and Vice President; for certainly the committee would not descend into the merits of a question already established by the House. For his part, he could not see what purpose was to be answered by the appointment of such a committee. He wished to have done with the subject, because while it remained a question in the House, the people's minds would be much agitated; it was impossible that a true republican spirit could remain unconcerned when a principle was under consideration, so repugnant to the principles of equal liberty.

Mr. SHERMAN thought it was pretty plain that the House could not comply with the proposition of the Senate. The appointment of a committee, on the part of the House, to consider and determine what style or title will be proper to annex to the President and Vice President, would imply that the House meant that some style or title should be given. Now this they never could intend, because they have decided that no style or title ought to be given; it will be sufficient to adduce this reason for not complying with the request of the Senate.

Mr. JACKSON wondered what title the Senate had in contemplation to add dignity or lustre to the person that filled the presidential chair. For his part, he could conceive none. Would it add to his fame to be called after the petty and insignificant princes of Europe? Would styling him His Serene Highness, His Grace, or Mightiness, add one tittle to the solid properties he possessed? He thought it would not; and therefore conceived the proposition to be trifling with the dignity of the Government. As a difference had taken place between the two Houses, he had no objection to a conference taking place. He hoped it might be productive of good consequences, and that the Senate might be induced to follow the laudable example of the House.

Mr. MADISON was of opinion, that the House might appoint a Committee of Conference without being supposed to countenance the measure. The standing rule of the House declared, that, in case of disagreeing votes, a Committee of Conference should be appointed. Now, as the case provided for in the rule had actually happened, he inferred that it was proper to proceed in the manner directed by the rules of the House. The subject was still open to discussion, but there was little probability that the House would rescind their adoption of the report. I presume gentlemen do not intend to compel the Senate into their measures; they should recollect that the Senate stand upon independent ground, and will do nothing but what they are convinced of the propriety of; it would be better, therefore, to treat them with delicacy, and offer some reasons to induce them to come into our measure. He expected this would be the result of a conference, and therefore was in favor of such a motion.

Mr. SENEY intended nothing disrespectful to the Senate, but he conceived, after having adopted the report of the committee, it would derogate from their own dignity to rescind a unanimous resolution; and for what other purpose could a conference be appointed by the House? They must certainly suppose that there might be ground for changing their opinion. Nothing of this kind appeared to him, and therefore he was of opinion, it would be a useless consumption to waste any more time about it.

Mr. CLYMER thought that there was little occasion to add any title to either the President or Vice President. He was very well convinced, by experience, that titles did not confer power; on the contrary, they frequently made their possessors ridiculous. The most impotent potentates, the most insignificant powers, generally assumed the highest and most lofty titles. That they do not indicate power and prerogative, is very observable in the English history; for when the chief magistrate of that nation bore the simple style of His Grace or Highness, his prerogatives were much more extensive than since he has become His Most Sacred Majesty.

Titular distinctions are said to be unpopular in the United States; yet a person would be led to think otherwise, from the vast number of honorable gentlemen we have in America. As soon as a man is selected for the public service, his fellow-citizens, with liberal hand, shower down titles on him--either excellency or honorable. He would venture to affirm, there were more honorable esquires in the United States than in all the world besides. He wished to check a propensity so notoriously evidenced in favor of distinctions, and hoped the example of the House might prevail to extinguish that predilection which appeared in favor of titles.

Mr. PAGE.--If I thought the motion made by my colleague in the least degree disrespectful, I should not have seconded it. I would be the last man on this floor to treat that worthy body with disrespect; but I believe it cannot be construed to have such a meaning. If we were to let the resolution lie on the table, it would not be disrespectful. But what is the object of the motion? Simply to inform the Senate that we cannot rescind a resolution adopted in consequence of the report of a joint committee. If the conduct of either House is in the least degree disrespectful, (though I do not conceive it is,) the body who declined adopting the report, after knowing the sense of the other to be in its favor, is the most so.

But on what are a committee to confer? Not upon what title shall be bestowed, because we have no right to enter on the subject; and here I must tell gentlemen I differ from them, when they think titles can do no harm. Titles, sir, I say, may do harm, and have done harm. If we contend now for a right to confer titles, I apprehend the time will come when we shall form a reservoir for honor, and make our President the fountain of it. In such case, may not titles do an injury to the Union? They have been the occasion of an eternal faction in the kingdom we were formerly connected with, and may beget like inquietude in America; for I contend, if you give the title, you must follow it with the robe and the diadem, and then the principles of your government are subverted.

Mr. LEE moved the previous question, as the best mode of getting rid of the motion before the House: he was supported by a sufficient number. And on the question, Shall the main question be now put? it passed in the negative; and so the motion was lost.

On motion, it was

Resolved, That a committee be appointed, to join with such committee as the Senate may appoint, to confer on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses, upon the report of their joint committee, appointed to consider what titles shall be given to the President and Vice President of the United States, if any other than those given in the constitution.

Messrs. MADISON, PAGE, BENSON, TRUMBULL, and SHERMAN were the committee elected.

Impost Bill.

The House then went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States. Mr. PAGE in the chair.

The question on laying a duty on molasses being under consideration:

Mr. TUCKER.--Notwithstanding I am anxious for a reduction of the duties on all the articles in the bill, yet my vote on molasses will be regulated by what the committee shall determine in other cases, as I do not conceive it to be out of proportion. If a general reduction takes place on the other articles, I shall be disposed to make a reduction on this article; but as mine is but a single vote, gentlemen may not be inclined to favor my proposition for a general reduction in order to gain my assent to a reduction on this particular article.

Mr. GOODHUE was of opinion that the duties were too high for collection; but he did not agree with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. TUCKER) that the duty on molasses was rated in proportion to the other articles, and therefore the question, whether molasses shall be reduced or not, did not depend on a general reduction, but on its own bottom; if it was rated too high for collection and proportion, the committee would agree to reduce it.

Mr. FITZSIMONS expected the gentleman from South Carolina would vote in the manner he had pledged himself; he had promised to vote for reducing the duty on molasses if the committee reduced the duty on other articles; now, as they had decided against a reduction, he hoped the gentleman would be in favor of the duty on molasses, as it stood in the bill, and not vote in the manner he had promised.

Mr. TUCKER.--The gentleman last up has certainly misunderstood me. I made no promise. I said my vote would depend upon the reduction of the other articles, but I was indifferent as to rum; I did not consider the State I represented as being either particularly benefited or injured by a duty on rum; and therefore did not urge any arguments in favor of reducing that article, more than I thought it might be proper to preserve the ratio, as fixed by the House, between the several articles. If gentlemen think rum can bear a high duty, and be safely collected, I have no objection to letting it remain. But there are some articles that bear heavily and unequally upon South Carolina; now, I think it my duty to vote in such a manner as to prevent her from bearing an undue proportion of the tax to be collected; I am, consequently, obliged to vote for a high tax on articles used in other States, (if my State is highly taxed,) however unequally it may fall. I shall therefore vote so as to endeavor to oblige other States to bear their true proportion of the aggregate sum. I wish to defer any determination on the article of molasses until we have gone through the other articles, that I may know how to vote on this. If gentlemen think my single vote of no consequence, they may proceed; but I may think the duty too high on molasses, and may be disposed to make it five cents, or less, if a reduction is made in the other articles; but I would not be understood to pledge myself for any particular sum.

Mr. AMES thought the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. FITZSIMONS) had misunderstood the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. TUCKER) respecting his pledging himself to vote in favor of molasses. He believed the gentleman from South Carolina incapable of making any improper accommodation either on this or any other occasion; the subject had never been mentioned to him, nor he believed to any body else, much less could the gentleman's intention be the result of bargain or compromise. For his own part, he would never consent to such a degradation of his rights as a member of the House, as to stipulate for the exercise of his opinion.

Mr. TUCKER.--If the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. FITZSIMONS) supposes that I have bargained to vote for or against any measure, he does me wrong; and if he charges me with such actions, I desire he may state his reasons and explain himself. I did not hear perfectly what he said when he was up before, and therefore did not refute any improper construction he might have put on my arguments.

Mr. FITZSIMONS had no difficulty in declaring his meaning. He understood when the article of rum was under consideration, that the gentleman held out a promise to vote for the reduction of the duty on molasses, if the committee would agree with him in reducing generally. This promise was not made in a private manner; it was made by the gentleman in his place. He could not recite the particular expression of the gentleman, but he understood from it that the gentleman pledged himself to reduce the duty on molasses, if the gentlemen from the Eastern States would join him in a general reduction.

Mr. TUCKER.--I expressed a wish for a general reduction to take place throughout the whole system; but I never made a promise with regard to a reduction of any particular article.

Mr. SENEY observed, that the discussion of molasses had been deferred when the subject was last before the House, in order to give time for a full investigation; but he conceived that no such reason now existed, in favor of its lying over, and therefore hoped the House would proceed to decide upon it.

Mr. AMES was willing to proceed to the consideration of that subject; he did not wish it deferred to the end of the list, that it might be held over them in terrorem. There were several articles in the list, which he did not conceive to be taxed too high for collection, or out of proportion with others, therefore it was likely they would not be reduced. If this was the case, the reduction would not be general, and the gentleman from South Carolina might not think it his duty to favor the reduction of molasses. He wished every article to stand upon its own bottom. If molasses was too high, the committee would lower it; if not, they will continue it at the rate it is, and the business would be done with. If the committee were disposed to proceed, he was ready to take up the subject.

Mr. CARROLL saw no reason for postponing the business at this time. When the subject was suspended on a former occasion, several gentlemen from Massachusetts were absent on business, but it was surely unnecessary now to have any delay. After the repeated discussions it had undergone, he was satisfied gentlemen were prepared for a decision, and he hoped the question might be taken, and the committee proceed to get through the business. Gentlemen should consider the daily loss which the revenue sustained by the delay of this bill; he cautioned them against considering overmuch, and letting slip the opportunity they now had to supply the public wants.

Mr. WADSWORTH would not go over the old ground, and enumerate all the reasons why a reduction of the duty on this article should take place. He satisfied himself with saying it was out of proportion, and too high ever to be collected with certainty; he wished the committee to lower it to three or four cents, and apply to an excise for the deficiency, not conceiving an excise on distilled spirits to be inconvenient or unpopular.

Mr. AMES was sensible that any further discussion of the present subject was unpleasant, nay, it was painful to the committee; but he had such impressions on his mind with regard to its importance, that he must trespass on them again. On all subjects demonstration is desirable, but there is only one science capable of complete demonstration. Many other sciences admit of different degrees of demonstration; but of all the sciences on earth, the science of politics is the least capable of affording satisfactory conclusions, while it is the one that, from its importance, requires the greatest degree of certainty; because when we are to consider those things which relate to the welfare of nations, it is of consequence, and nothing can be more desirable than that we adopt just principles in order to come at proper conclusions. In this science it is dangerous to adopt the visionary projects of speculators instead of principle. We ought to be cautious, therefore, in selecting the information upon which we form our system.

He trusted to make it appear in the course of his arguments, that the propriety of the particular measure under discussion depended upon local knowledge, and yet it would be found of national concern. He believed it could be clearly proved to be as much the interest of one part as of another to have the duty reduced.

It was laid down as a principle that all duties ought to be equal. He believed, if gentlemen gave themselves time for consideration, they would not contend this duty was equal. He said he had made some calculations, which demonstrated the inequality to a very surprising degree. The tax operated in two ways: first, as a tax on a raw material, which increased the price of stock and narrowed the sale; and second, as a tax on an article of consumption. It required the distillation and the consumption to be equal in every part of the Union to render the duty equal in its operation; but no gentleman contended that the consumption or distillation was equal. The gentleman from Virginia said, on a former occasion, that Massachusetts would not contribute her proportion of the national revenue, because her exports were not equal to the Southern States, and of consequence her imports are less; but if this fact is examined, it will be found that she does export in full proportion with the Southern States. Examine her custom-house books, and you will find it; but Massachusetts is greatly concerned in navigation, and the wages of her seamen ought to be added to the amount of the profits of her industry. Then if we consider her consumption, we shall find it in proportion also. Admitting the people of New England to live more moderate than the opulent citizens of Virginia or Carolina, yet they have not such a number of blacks among them, whose living is wretched; consequently, the average consumption per head will be nearly the same. The fact is, that all taxes of this nature will fall generally in proportion to the ability to pay.

Laying a heavy duty on molasses incurs the necessity of allowing a drawback on country rum. By this system, we may lose more revenue than we gain; anyhow, it will render it very uncertain. It is a question of some importance, whether it would not be beneficial to the United States to establish a manufacture which would be very lucrative. But waiving that consideration, he would ask gentlemen, if there was any propriety in taxing molasses in its raw state, with a duty intended to be laid on rum? Certainly this had better be by way of excise. In this mode the revenue would escape fraud by smuggling, which would otherwise be unavoidable. The tax was such a temptation, being thirty per cent. upon its value, that no checks could prevent a clandestine trade being carried on.

Without the molasses trade is continued, the fishery cannot be carried on. They are so intimately connected, that the weapon which wounds the one will stab the other. If by such measures as these we ruin one of the most valuable interests of the United States, will not the people have a right to complain that, instead of protecting, you injure and destroy their pursuits? He did not mean to say that the people would form unwarrantable combinations; but their exertions to support the Government will be damped; they will look with chagrin on the disappointment of their hopes; and it will add to their vexation that they have been deceived under the most flattering appearances; for who could conceive that a Government, constructed and adopted in the manner this has been, could ever be administered to the destruction of that welfare which it was formed to support?

He recommended experience as the best guide, and said, that it was decidedly against high duties, particularly on molasses; and concluded with appealing to the justice and wisdom of the committee for a determination on this subject.

Mr. CARROLL would not take up the time of the committee with saying a word on the main subject, but begged them to consider of how much importance it was to the Union to get this bill into operation. If every article was to be again debated in the manner it had already been, he could see no end to the business. Unless gentlemen could advance some new and weighty arguments, he thought the time misspent in recapitulating those that had been unsuccessfully urged twice or three times before.

Mr. MADISON thought the arguments against the duty were inconsistent. He believed the gentlemen in opposition had not replied to an observation he had made, and which was of great force on his mind. The gentlemen all say that a heavy duty will ruin the distilleries and fisheries, and the people concerned in them; yet they profess themselves willing to lay the same duty, but in two forms instead of one. Now he would be glad to know if the distilleries and fisheries would not be precisely in the same situation, let which would take place?

On motion, the committee rose, and the House adjourned.

TUESDAY, May 12.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. PAGE in the chair, on the Impost Bill.

The article of molasses being still under consideration:

Mr. AMES wished to reply to the observation made yesterday by the gentleman from Virginia. Does that gentleman, said he, recollect, if we lay an excise, we prevent the burthen from being imposed upon the poor for their subsistence, as molasses, in the raw state, will be lightly taxed? In the next place, it is more favorable to the importers of that article than the impost; it does not require so large a proportion of their capital to be advanced in payment of duties, nor do they run the risk of bad debts, because it may be so regulated that the retailer shall secure the duty. Another reason is, it will save the expense of a numerous host of custom-house officers, tide-waiters, &c. These considerations proved, that if the excise was no better than an impost, it was no worse; and as the duty would be better collected, and give less reason for smuggling, which, above all things, was dangerous to the revenue, it was sufficient to warrant the committee in giving the excise duty a preference.

Mr. GOODHUE would not trouble the House long on the subject; but begged leave to repeat the manner in which the molasses trade was connected with the fisheries, and the fisheries with the navigation; that, if the first is injured, the other two are wounded through its side. About three-fifths of all the fish that are put up for that market, are of an inferior quality, and would not sell elsewhere. The French would not permit us to carry them there, but because we take their molasses in exchange; they will not let their colonies send the molasses to France, lest it interfere with their brandy. Now, any impediment to the exportation of molasses, will prevent the exportation of fish; if we cannot export the fish, for what purpose shall we continue our fisheries? And if they are given up, how are we to form seamen to man our future navy?

Mr. MADISON said his mind was incapable of discovering any plan that would answer the purpose the committee have in view, and not produce greater evils than the one under consideration. He thought an excise very objectionable, but as no actual proposition for entering into such a system was before the committee, he forbore to say any thing further about it. He admitted an excise would obviate in part some of the difficulties; but he did not think the answer given to his argument altogether satisfactory; yet there was another argument he urged on a former occasion remaining unanswered--it was, that, at this moment, the fisheries, distilleries, and all their connections, were laboring under heavier duties than what is now proposed; true, the duty is collected in a different mode, but it affects the consumer in the same manner. The gentlemen have said, to be sure, that the duty is evaded; but if half is collected, it amounts to more than six cents per gallon.

It is said that a tax on molasses will be unpopular, but not more so than a tax on salt. Can gentlemen state more serious apprehensions in the former than the latter case? yet the committee did not forego a productive fund, because the article was a necessary of life, and in general consumption. If there is the disposition that is represented for people to complain of the oppression of Government, have not the citizens of the Southern States more just ground for complaint than others? The system can only be acceptable to them, because it is essentially necessary to be adopted for the public good.

Gentlemen argue, that a tax on molasses is unpopular, and prove it by experience under the British Government. If this is to be adduced as a proof of the popularity of a measure, what are we to say with respect to a tax on tea? Gentlemen remembered, no doubt, how odious this kind of tax was thought to be throughout America; yet the House had, without hesitation, laid a considerable duty upon it. He did not imagine that a duty on either of those articles was in itself objectionable; it was the principle upon which the tax was laid that made them unpopular under the British Government.

It is said that this tax is unjust; now, he had not a single idea of justice, that did not contradict the position. If it be considered as it relates to rum, he was certain the consumers of foreign rum paid a larger proportion of revenue into the Treasury than the consumers of country rum; they paid more than equal distributive justice required; if it was considered as it respected molasses, there would appear no injustice. Molasses was consumed in other States; but if it was not, sugar was used in its stead, and subjected to a duty full as high as that on molasses. But dismissing both these considerations, and even admitting the whole weight to fall upon the Northern States, it would not be disproportioned, because, in the long list of enumerated articles subject to a high duty, they imported few or none; indeed, the articles were pretty generally taxed for the benefit of the manufacturing part of the northern community; see loaf sugar, candles, cheese, soap, &c. He hoped gentlemen would not infer from this observation, that he thought the encouragement held out by the bill to manufactures improper; far from it; he was glad to see their growing consequences, and was disposed to give them every aid in his power. From this view of the subject, he was inclined to adhere to the bill, and not make any reduction.

Mr. GERRY hoped the committee would not consider the subject as finally decided; he thought it deserving of further investigation, and expected the committee would be satisfied of the propriety of making some reduction. He felt a concern at being obliged to extend the discussion, but his duty impelled him to oppose a measure he conceived injurious to his country.

Gentlemen had contended, that a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses was just and equal; for his part, he could not discover, with all the exertions his mind was capable of making, how gentlemen prove this to be the case; it appeared to him partial and oppressive.

The principle laid down in the constitution for an equal distribution of taxes was, that they shall be apportioned among the several States, according to their respective number of inhabitants. This principle is made positive as it respects direct taxes; but he thought the equality ought to extend itself to every possible case. The power possessed by the House, with regard to revenue and the power of making all necessary laws, enabled the General Government to exist independent of subordinate associations; but if they were inclined to annihilate the State Governments, yet it would be their interest to attend to the advantages of the community, and administer their power so as not to make it burthensome and oppressive. Now, he wished to know, what principle of justice authorized the committee to lay a duty of six cents on molasses? Unfortunately for Massachusetts, she imports a greater quantity than the whole Union besides. This makes her interest stand alone, and her representatives are left to labor the point, knowing the ill effect it will have upon their constituents. Under these circumstances, it is necessary to pay particular attention to the justice of the measure; gentlemen should consider that, in such cases, there is danger of interest prevailing over equity and policy. Certainly, if the measure is pursued, we shall discover this effect in the end.

Gentlemen have considered the arguments brought against this duty as standing upon local ground, advocating the local interest of Massachusetts. He would examine this position. It is the interest of a majority of the people of that State, that as much revenue should be drawn from molasses as possible. I say it is the interest of the State, for their interest is divided between the landed and commercial; the landed interest predominates, and it was always supposed that the commercial bore a greater share of the public burthen than it ought. The conduct of the State of Massachusetts ought to be esteemed by us as the best guide to discover how far our commercial regulations, as they respect that State, are consistent with policy, if she furnishes the best example. Can we find that she ever imposed a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses? Not a single instance can be produced where she raised revenue from this article. If they then never laid a duty upon it, and they were disposed to get every thing in their power from commerce, we must conclude that if it could have been laid they would have done it. It is not the landed citizens, if he might use the term, who consume molasses; it is the inhabitants of the sea-coast; the former had the power, and they were interested to lay such a tax, it might therefore be expected they would have done it, if they had not been convinced it would have destroyed the fisheries and navigation of the State.

The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) cannot see how an impost on molasses can affect the distilleries and fisheries. After having been repeated over and over again, it would be unnecessary that he should dwell on this point. But every one could see the connection; if we do not import molasses, we cannot carry on our distilleries nor vend our fish; and it will be impossible to import molasses under such heavy duties; at least the future importation will be limited to two-thirds of the present, because the demand will be in proportion to the increase of price, and the merchant will not have capital to import more than two-thirds of his usual quantity.

He would not reiterate the arguments respecting the fisheries; it was well known to be the best nursery for seamen, the United States had no other, and it never could be the intention of gentlemen to leave the navigation of the Union to the mercy of foreign powers. It is of necessity, then, that we lay the foundation of our maritime importance as soon as may be, and this can be done only by encouraging our fisheries. It is also well known that we have a number of rivals in this business desirous of excluding us from the fishing banks altogether. This consideration of itself is sufficient to induce a wise legislature to extend every encouragement to so important a concern. In any regulation they make, by which it can be effected, they ought to be sure of the ground on which they go.

It appeared to him that six cents would have the most ruinous consequences to the general interest; he therefore hoped gentlemen would agree to reduce it, if not so as to place it among the ad valorem articles, at least down to two cents. However, as the committee are not prepared to say the particular sum proper to be laid, he hoped they would agree to leave it a blank, to be filled up at some future stage of the business.

The question was now taken on striking out six cents, and passed in the affirmative: ayes 24, noes 22.

Propositions were severally made for filling up the blank with two, three, four, and five cents; five being the highest was first put and agreed to--ayes 25, noes 23.

The committee proceeded to consider the subsequent articles; but not having time to go through the whole, they rose, and reported progress, and the House adjourned.

WEDNESDAY, May 13.

The petition of John Fitch, of Pennsylvania, was presented, stating that he is the original discoverer of the principle of applying steam-power to the purposes of navigation, and has obtained an exclusive right therein for a term of years, in the States of Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York, and praying that his rights may be secured to him by law, so as to preclude subsequent improvers upon his principle from participation therein, until the expiration of his granted right. Referred to a committee, consisting of Messrs. HUNTINGTON, CADWALADER, and CONTEE, to report thereon.

Duties on Imports.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the Impost Bill, Mr. PAGE in the chair.

AFRICAN SLAVES.

Mr. PARKER moved to insert a clause in the bill, imposing a duty on the importation of slaves, of ten dollars each person. He was sorry that the constitution prevented Congress from prohibiting the importation altogether; he thought it a defect in that instrument that it allowed of such a practice; it was contrary to the Revolution principles, and ought not to be permitted; but as he could not do all the good he desired, he was willing to do what lay in his power. He hoped such a duty as he moved for would prevent, in some degree, this irrational and inhuman traffic; if so, he should feel happy from the success of his motion.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, hoped that such an important and serious proposition as this would not be hastily adopted. It was a very late moment for the introduction of new subjects. He expected the committee had got through the business, and would rise without discussing any thing further. At least, if gentlemen were determined on considering the present motion, he hoped they would delay it for a few days, in order to give time for an examination of the subject. It was certainly a matter big with the most serious consequences to the State he represented; he did not think any one thing that had been discussed was so important to them, and the welfare of the Union, as the question now brought forward; but he was not prepared to enter on any argument, and therefore requested the motion might either be withdrawn or laid on the table.

Mr. SHERMAN approved of the object of the motion, but he did not think this bill was proper to embrace the subject. He could not reconcile himself to the insertion of human beings as an article of duty, among goods, wares, and merchandise. He hoped it would be withdrawn for the present, and taken up hereafter as an independent subject.

Mr. JACKSON, observing the quarter from which this motion came, said it did not surprise him, though it might have that effect upon others. He recollected that Virginia was an old settled State, and had her complement of slaves; so she was careless of recruiting her numbers by this means; the natural increase of her imported blacks was sufficient for their purpose; but he thought gentlemen ought to let their neighbors get supplied, before they imposed such a burthen upon the importation. He knew this business was viewed in an odious light to the eastward, because the people were capable of doing their own work, and had no occasion for slaves; but gentlemen will have some feeling for others; they will not try to throw all the weight upon those who have assisted in lightening their burthens; they do not wish to charge us for every comfort and enjoyment of life, and at the same time take away the means of procuring them; they do not wish to break us down at once.

He was convinced, from the inaptitude of the motion, and the want of time to consider it, that the candor of the gentleman would induce him to withdraw it for the present; and if ever it came forward again, he hoped it would comprehend the white slaves as well as black, who were imported from all the jails of Europe; wretches, convicted of the most flagrant crimes, were brought in and sold without any duty whatever. He thought that they ought to be taxed equally with the Africans, and had no doubt but the constitutionality and propriety of such a measure was equally apparent with the one proposed.

Mr. TUCKER thought it unfair to bring in such an important subject at a time when debate was almost precluded. The committee had gone through the impost bill, and the whole Union was impatiently expecting the result of their deliberations; the public must be disappointed, and much revenue lost, or this question cannot undergo that full discussion which it deserves.

We have no right, said he, to consider whether the importation of slaves is proper or not; the constitution gives us no power on that point; it is left to the States to judge of that matter as they see fit. But if it is a business the gentleman is determined to discourage, he ought to have brought his motion forward sooner, and even then not have introduced it without previous notice. He hoped the committee would reject the motion, if it was not withdrawn. He was not speaking so much for the State he represented as for Georgia; because the State of South Carolina had a prohibitory law, which could be renewed when its limitation expired.

Mr. PARKER had ventured to introduce the subject after full deliberation, and did not like to withdraw it. Although the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr. SHERMAN) had said, that they ought not to be enumerated with goods, wares, and merchandise, he believed they were looked upon by the African traders in this light. He knew it was degrading the human species to annex that character to them; but he would rather do this than continue the actual evil of importing slaves a moment longer. He hoped Congress would do all that lay in their power to restore to human nature its inherent privileges, and, if possible, wipe off the stigma under which America labored. The inconsistency in our principles, with which we are justly charged, should be done away, that we may show, by our actions, the pure beneficence of the doctrine we hold out to the world in our Declaration of Independence.

Mr. SHERMAN thought the principles of the motion, and the principles of the bill, were inconsistent; the principle of the bill was to raise revenue, the principle of the motion to correct a moral evil. Now, considering it as an object of revenue, it would be unjust, because two or three States would bear the whole burthen, while he believed they bore their full proportion of all the rest. He was against receiving the motion into this bill, though he had no objection to taking it up by itself, on the principles of humanity and policy; and therefore would vote against it if it was not withdrawn.

Mr. AMES joined the gentleman last up; no one could suppose him favorable to slavery; he detested it from his soul; but he had some doubts whether imposing a duty on the importation would not have the appearance of countenancing the practice; it was certainly a subject of some delicacy, and no one appeared to be prepared for the discussion. He therefore hoped the motion would be withdrawn.

Mr. LIVERMORE was not against the principle of the motion; but in the present case he conceived it improper. If negroes were goods, wares, or merchandise, they came within the title of the bill; if they were not, the bill would be inconsistent. But if they are goods, wares, or merchandise, the five per cent. ad valorem will embrace the importation, and the duty of five per cent. is nearly equal to ten dollars per head; so there is no occasion to add it even on the score of revenue.

Mr. JACKSON said, it was the fashion of the day to favor the liberty of slaves. He would not go into a discussion of the subject; but he believed it was capable of demonstration that they were better off in their present situation than they would be if they were manumitted. What are they to do if they are discharged? Work for a living? Experience has shown us they will not. Examine what has become of those in Maryland; many of them have been set free in that State. Did they turn themselves to industry and useful pursuits? No, they turn out common pickpockets, petty larceny villains. And is this mercy, forsooth, to turn them into a way in which they must lose their lives; for when they are thrown upon the world, void of property and connections, they cannot get their living but by pilfering. What is to be done for compensation? Will Virginia set all her negroes free? Will they give up the money they cost them, and to whom? When this practice comes to be tried there, the sound of liberty will lose those charms which make it grateful to the ravished ear. But our slaves are not in a worse situation than they were on the coast of Africa. It is not uncommon there for the parents to sell their children in peace; and in war, the whole are taken and made slaves together. In these cases, it is only a change of one slavery for another; and are they not better here, where they have a master, bound by the ties of interest and law, to provide for their support and comfort in old age or infirmity, in which, if they were free, they would sink under the pressure of woe for want of assistance?

He would say nothing of the partiality of such a tax; it was admitted by the avowed friends of the measure; Georgia, in particular, would be oppressed. On this account, it would be the most odious tax Congress could impose.

Mr. SCHUREMAN hoped the gentleman would withdraw his motion, because the present was not the time or place for introducing the business. He thought it had better be brought forward in the House as a distinct proposition. If the gentleman persisted in having the question determined, he would move the previous question, if he was supported.

Mr. MADISON.--I cannot concur with gentlemen who think the present an improper time or place to enter into a discussion of the proposed motion. If it is taken up in a separate view, we shall do the same thing at a greater expense of time. But gentlemen say that it is improper to connect the two objects, because they do not come within the title of the bill; but this objection may be obviated by accommodating the title to the contents. There may be some inconsistency in combining the ideas which gentlemen have expressed, that is, considering the human race as a species of property; but the evil does not arise from adopting the clause now proposed; it is from the importation to which it relates. Our object in enumerating persons on paper with merchandise, is to prevent the practice of actually treating them as such, by having them in future forming part of the cargoes of goods, wares, and merchandise to be imported into the United States. The motion is calculated to avoid the very evil intimated by the gentleman.

It has been said that this tax will be partial and oppressive; but if a fair view is taken of this subject, I think we may form a different conclusion. But if it be partial or oppressive, are there not many instances in which we have laid taxes of this nature? Yet are they not thought to be justified by national policy? If any article is warranted on this account, how much more are we authorized to proceed on this occasion? The dictates of humanity, the principles of the people, the national safety and happiness, and prudent policy require it of us. The constitution has particularly called our attention to it; and of all the articles contained in the bill before us, this is one of the last I should be willing to make a concession upon, so far as I am at liberty to go, according to the terms of the constitution or principles of justice. I would not have it understood that my zeal would carry me to disobey the inviolable commands of either.

I understood it had been intimated, that the motion was inconsistent or unconstitutional. I believe, sir, my worthy colleague has formed the words with a particular reference to the constitution; any how, so far as the duty is expressed, it perfectly accords with that instrument. If there are any inconsistencies in it, they may be rectified. I believe the intention is well understood, but I am far from supposing the diction improper. If the description of the persons does not accord with the ideas of the gentleman from Georgia, (Mr. JACKSON,) and his idea is a proper one for the committee to adopt, I see no difficulty in changing the phraseology.

I conceive the constitution, in this particular, was formed in order that the Government, whilst it was restrained from laying a total prohibition, might be able to give some testimony of the sense of America with respect to the African trade. We have liberty to impose a tax or duty upon the importation of such persons, as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit; and this liberty was granted, I presume, upon two considerations. The first was, that until the time arrived when they might abolish the importation of slaves, they might have an opportunity of evidencing their sentiments on the policy and humanity of such a trade. The other was, that they might be taxed in due proportion with other articles imported; for if the possessor will consider them as property, of course they are of value, and ought to be paid for. If gentlemen are apprehensive of oppression from the weight of the tax, let them make an estimate of its proportion, and they will find that it very little exceeds five per cent. ad valorem; so that they will gain very little by having them thrown into that mass of articles; whilst, by selecting them in the manner proposed, we shall fulfil the prevailing expectations of our fellow-citizens, and perform our duty in executing the purposes of the constitution. It is to be hoped, that by expressing a national disapprobation of this trade, we may destroy it, and save ourselves from reproaches, and our posterity the imbecility ever attendant on a country filled with slaves.

I do not wish to say any thing harsh to the hearing of gentlemen who entertain different sentiments from me, or different sentiments from those I represent; but if there is any one point in which it is clearly the policy of this nation, so far as we constitutionally can, to vary the practice obtaining under some of the State Governments, it is this. But it is certain a majority of the States are opposed to this practice; therefore, upon principle, we ought to discountenance it as far as is in our power.

If I were not afraid of being told that the Representatives of the several States are the best able to judge of what is proper and conducive to their particular prosperity, I should venture to say that it is as much the interest of Georgia and South Carolina as of any in the Union. Every addition they receive to their number of slaves, tends to weaken and render them less capable of self-defence. In case of hostilities with foreign nations, they will be the means of inviting attack, instead of repelling invasion. It is a necessary duty of the General Government to protect every part of the empire against danger, as well internal as external. Every thing, therefore, which tends to increase this danger, though it may be a local affair, yet, if it involves national expense or safety, becomes of concern to every part of the Union, and is a proper subject for the consideration of those charged with the general administration of the Government. I hope, in making these observations, I shall not be understood to mean that a proper attention ought not to be paid to the local opinions and circumstances of any part of the United States, or that the particular representatives are not best able to judge of the sense of their immediate constituents.

If we examine the proposed measure by the agreement there is between it and the existing State laws, it will show us that it is patronized by a very respectable part of the Union. I am informed that South Carolina has prohibited the importation of slaves for several years yet to come. We have the satisfaction, then, of reflecting that we do nothing more than their own laws do at this moment. This is not the case with one State. I am sorry that her situation is such as to seem to require a population of this nature; but it is impossible, in the nature of things, to consult the national good, without doing what we do not wish to do to some particular part.

Perhaps gentlemen contend against the introduction of the clause on too slight grounds. If it does not comport with the title of the bill, alter the latter. If it does not conform to the precise terms of the constitution, amend it. But if it will tend to delay the whole bill, that, perhaps, will be the best reason for making it the object of a separate one. If this be the sense of the committee, I shall submit.

Mr. GERRY thought all duties ought to be laid as equal as possible. He had endeavored to enforce this principle yesterday, but without the success he wished for; he was bound by the principle of justice, therefore, to vote for the proposition. But if the committee were desirous of considering the subject fully by itself, he had no objection; but he thought when gentlemen laid down a principle, they ought to support it generally.

Mr. BURKE said, gentlemen were contending for nothing; that the value of a slave averaged about eighty pounds, and the duty on that sum at five per cent. would be ten dollars. As Congress could go no further than that sum, he conceived it made no difference whether they were enumerated or left in the common mass.

Mr. MADISON.--If we contend for nothing, the gentlemen who are opposed to us do not contend for a great deal. But the question is, whether the five per cent. ad valorem, on all articles imported, will have any operation at all upon the introduction of slaves, unless we make a particular enumeration on this account. The collector may mistake; for he would not presume to apply the term goods, wares, and merchandise to any person whatsoever. But if that general definition of goods, wares, and merchandise, is supposed to include African slaves, why may we not particularly enumerate them, and lay the duty pointed out by the constitution, which, as gentlemen tell us, is no more than five per cent. upon their value. This will not increase the burthen upon any; but it will be that manifestation of our sense expected by our constituents, and demanded by justice and humanity.

Mr. BLAND had no doubt of the propriety or good policy of this measure. He had made up his mind upon it; he wished slaves had never been introduced into America. But if it was impossible at this time to cure the evil, he was very willing to join in any measures that would prevent its extending further. He had some doubts whether the prohibitory laws of the States were not in part repealed. Those who had endeavored to discountenance this trade by laying a duty on the importation, were prevented by the constitution from continuing such regulation, which declares that no State shall lay any impost or duties on imports. If this were the case, and he suspected pretty strongly that it was, the necessity of adopting the proposition of his colleague was more apparent.

Mr. SHERMAN said the constitution does not consider these persons as species of property; it speaks of them as persons, and says, that a tax or duty may be imposed on the importation of them into any State which shall permit the same, but they have no power to prohibit such importation for twenty years. But Congress have power to declare upon what terms persons coming into the United States shall be entitled to citizenship; the rule of naturalization must, however, be uniform. He was convinced there were others who ought to be regulated in this particular, the importation of whom was of an evil tendency; he meant convicts particularly. He thought that some regulation respecting them was also proper; but it being a different subject, it ought to be taken up in a different manner.

Mr. MADISON was led to believe, from the observation that had fallen from the gentlemen, that it would be best to make this the subject of a distinct bill: he, therefore, wished his colleague would withdraw his motion, and move in the House for leave to bring in a bill on the same principles.

Mr. PARKER consented to withdraw his motion, under a conviction that the House was fully satisfied of its propriety. He knew very well that these persons were neither goods nor wares, but they were treated as articles of merchandise. Although he wished to get rid of this part of his property, yet he should not consent to deprive other people of theirs by any act of his, without their consent.

The committee rose, reported progress, and the House adjourned.

FRIDAY, May 15.

Mr. WHITE, one of the Representatives from Virginia, presented to the House a resolve of the Legislature of that State, of the 27th of December, 1788, offering to the acceptance of the Federal Government, ten miles square of territory, or any lesser quantity, in any part of that State, which Congress may choose, to be occupied and possessed by the United States, as the seat of the Federal Government; which was read, and ordered to lie on the table.

An engrossed bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises, imported into the United States, was read a third time, and, on a motion made, ordered to be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House immediately.

The House, accordingly, resolved itself into the said committee; and, after some time, the committee rose, and reported the bill with amendments, which were agreed to by the House.

Mr. MADISON made a motion further to amend the said bill, by adding to the end thereof a clause for limiting the time of its continuance.

Mr. AMES expressed a doubt of the propriety of the motion. He thought the bill ought to be commensurate with the wants of Government.

Mr. FITZSIMONS.--For want of a proper knowledge of the true situation of our affairs, we are unable to determine how far the present provision is equal to the necessities of the Union, and this circumstance will tend to add considerably to our embarrassment in limiting the duration. If we make the time too short to supply the public wants, we shall not hold out to the public creditors a sufficient security for the punctual payment of their debts. If we should want to raise money by a loan, we could only expect it according to the duration of the fund: this makes the present motion a subject of serious consideration. Not that I object to what the gentleman has in contemplation, but I wish such language to be used, that shall designate the continuation of the law to be till the wants are supplied and thereafter cease. I am not of opinion that it should be for half a century, because I hope our national debt will be extinguished in much less time; but really I must confess, at this moment, I feel considerable embarrassment in determining in my mind the period for which it should exist, whether an enumerated term of years, or a general declaration during the continuance of the public wants.

Mr. LEE thought the operation of the law could not be well understood; that it was a system of experiment, and ought to be temporary, in order that a future Congress might make such amendments as time should discover to be necessary. How perfect soever the theory might appear, practice might prove it otherwise; he therefore wished its operation limited for three or five years. He thought it would be wise in the House to adopt the motion, in order to prevent any injustice which a permanent and imperfect regulation might have on posterity. He expected this would beget confidence in the Government, which was to him a very desirable object.

Mr. WHITE.--The constitution having authorized the House of Representatives alone to originate money bills, places an important trust in our hands, which, as their protectors, we ought not to part with. I do not mean to imply that the Senate are less to be trusted than this House; but the constitution, no doubt for wise purposes, has given the immediate Representatives of the People a control over the whole Government in this particular, which for their interest they ought not to let out of their hands. Besides, the constitution says further, that no appropriation shall be for a longer term than two years, which of consequence limits the duration of the revenue law to that period; when, if it is found conducive to the public welfare, it may be continued by the legislators appointed by the people, and who alone are authorized to declare upon this question in the first instance.

Mr. LIVERMORE hoped but little time would be taken up in the discussion of this subject; the people were anxiously waiting the result of their deliberations; beside the impost was daily slipping away. He had no doubt of the propriety of the motion, because from the acknowledged imperfections of the bill, it would never do for a permanent system. If the people, who consider themselves subjected to very high and very unequal duties, find no termination of the grievance, they will immediately adopt measures in their defence, to thwart the views of Government; but if they understand the law as temporary, and only passed in order to gain experience for forming a better system, they will be induced to give it fair play, and bear the burthen without complaint, trusting to the wisdom and justice of Congress for such alterations as practice may show to be necessary.

Besides, the objects for which the revenue is now wanting, will decrease annually; this will be an additional reason for limiting its duration. He was not for a very short term; he thought five, seven, or ten years, would be more eligible than two or three, but he was decidedly against making it perpetual.

Mr. SINNICKSON had understood, that one of the objects of the bill was the re-establishment of public credit; but it never could be imagined that a law, limited to three or four years, could do this in any great degree; nor could any advantage arise from loans negotiated and terminated within such a short period. Under these impressions, he conceived the motion struck at the credit of the new Government, which the people had just established.

Mr. MADISON.--When he offered this amendment to the bill, he thought its propriety was so obvious and striking, that it would meet no opposition. To pass a bill, not limited in duration, which was to draw revenue from the pockets of the people, appeared to be dangerous in the administration of any Government; he hoped, therefore, the House would not be less cautious in this particular than other nations are, who profess to act upon sound principles. He imagined it might be considered by their constituents as incompatible with the spirit of the constitution, and dangerous to republican principles, to pass such a law unlimited in its duration.

Besides the restoration of public credit, he thought the act had in view the encouragement of a particular description of people, which might lead them into enterprises of a peculiar nature, for the protection of which the public faith seemed to be pledged. But would gentlemen infer from hence, that no alteration ought to take place if the manufactures were well established? The subject appeared to him in a twofold point of view; first, to provide for the exigencies of Government, and second, for the establishment of public credit; but he thought both these objects could be obtained without making the bill perpetual. If the Government showed a proper attention to the punctual performance of its engagements, it would obtain the latter; the other would be secured by making provision as the occasion demanded. If the bill was to be made perpetual, it would be continued after the purpose for which it was adopted had ceased; the error would in this case be irremediable; whereas, if its limitation was determined, it would always be in the power of the Government to make it commensurate with what the public debts and contingencies required.

The constitution, as had already been observed, places the power in the House of originating money bills. The principal reason why the constitution had made this distinction was, because they were chosen by the people, and supposed to be best acquainted with their interests and ability. In order to make them more particularly acquainted with these objects, the democratic branch of the Legislature consisted of a greater number, and were chosen for a shorter period, so that they might revert more frequently to the mass of the people. Now, if a revenue law was made perpetual, however unequal its operation might be, it would be out of the power of this House to effect an alteration; for if the President chose to object to the measure, it would require two-thirds of both Houses to carry it. Even if the House of Representatives were unanimous in their opinion that the law ought to be repealed, they would not be able to carry it, unless a great majority appeared in the Senate also.

Mr. BOUDINOT said, the time mentioned by the former Congress, and to which they requested the concurrence of the several States, was, that the impost duties might be continued for twenty-five years. This request was made on full consideration, and they did not think it was more than sufficient to discharge the principal and interest of the national debt. He concluded, therefore, that it was better to let the law remain without limitation; because when they found the purposes for which it was intended were accomplished, it would be in the power of Congress to repeal the law.

Mr. LAWRENCE thought the present was a subject of great importance, and he lamented it was not brought forward at an earlier period, because he feared the time would not allow that full discussion or deliberation which ought to take place. He wished also that the House was acquainted with the necessities of the United States, that so they might make provision accordingly; but these two points were mere matter of speculation as to their precise amount; yet he believed it was agreed on all hands, that the ways and means provided in this bill for the support of Government, the payment of interest and instalments of the foreign and domestic debt, were, so far as agreed to, inadequate to the object. If this be the case, the public debt must accumulate; and as we do not know when the time may come for its extinguishment, the provision cannot be limited; for every gentleman will agree, that if the demand for revenue be increased, the fund ought to be commensurate to the object. Is there any time when the civil list will cease its demand? If there is not, there will be a perpetual call for revenue. He thought it absolutely impossible to provide for the payment of the debts, if the bill was limited to two, three, or four years; such a precarious provision would never tend to the re-establishment of public credit. If the bill was not limited, it would always be in the power of the Legislature to lower the duties, or make such other alteration as might, upon experience, be thought beneficial to the community; whereas if the bill were limited, it would be thought improper to make any amendments during the term for which it is enacted, although those amendments appeared indispensably necessary. But why is this degree of caution necessary? Will not the administration of public affairs be conducted in future by representatives as good as ourselves? Will they have less wisdom or virtue, to discover and pursue the good of their fellow-citizens than we have?

Mr. BLAND.--Our public credit consists of two branches: first, as it respects the evidences of our debt, in the hands of those from whom we have had money or services; and secondly, as it respects our ability to borrow in future. Now, the first branch of public credit depends upon the punctuality with which the interest is paid; but this in foreign nations, does not depend upon the limitation of the act. Do gentlemen suppose our laws, like those of the Medes and Persians, unchangeable? Can any person, who has read our constitution, believe that it is in our power to pass a law without limitation? No, it is impossible. Every person knows that a future Congress may repeal this and every other law we pass, whenever they think proper. The constitution had particularly intrusted the House of Representatives with the power of raising money; great care was necessary to preserve this privilege inviolate; it was one of the greatest securities the people had for their liberties under this Government. Moreover, the importance of the House itself depended upon holding the purse-strings; if they once part with this power, they would become insignificant, and the other branch of the Legislature might become altogether independent of them. For these reasons, he was in favor of the motion of his honorable colleague, and hoped it would obtain.

Mr. GERRY.--There seems to be a great variety of opinions entertained by gentlemen on this question. But he thought they would all agree on these two points: first, that there were very great demands upon the federal treasury; and, secondly, that they had no kind of documents to show what they were, or what the revenue bill would produce. Under these circumstances, gentlemen must agree, that there is danger of passing a law that would operate oppressively, and without reason. There was also danger of erring in the mode of collecting, for want of experience to guide them. From these considerations, there was no doubt but the act would require the reconsideration of the Legislature in a short time; there may be applications from the people of all quarters to repeal a part of it. But what are their immediate representatives to do, in case the bill be made perpetual? They may be convinced that a repeal would be just and necessary; but it may not be in their power to remedy the grievances of their constituents, however desirous they may be of doing so; for, although this House may originate and carry a bill unanimously through for the repeal, yet it will be in the power of the President, and the minority of the other branch of Congress, to prevent a repeal.

Mr. HUNTINGDON thought it easy to see the danger of making this bill perpetual: besides parting with the power which the constitution gave to the House of Representatives, in authorizing them solely to originate money bills, there would be another inconvenience, which was, extending the revenue beyond what the nature of the public debt required. The foreign debt was payable by instalments; it was saying nothing to allege that the debt would accumulate, because the United States must make provision for the annual extinguishment of a part. If the revenue, arising from the impost, be insufficient for this purpose, recourse must be had to some other fund, which will enable us to perform the engagements of the late Congress. It is true the debt is large, and will take time to pay it off, but he had no doubt but it would be done according to contract, and with honor to the Union. How, then, can gentlemen suppose the revenue ought to be perpetual, in order to be commensurate with the object? If they contemplated the contraction of more debts in future, the supposition might be true; but he saw no reason why gentlemen should extend their views so far. He thought if a future war, or some other untoward circumstance, should increase the national debt, it ought to be provided for by the Government who were acquainted with the necessity. He thought the House ought to consider seriously before they parted with their powers; it was easy for them to pass a bill to give power, but it was difficult to recall it. He had seen many instances of this kind; one in particular in the State from which he came, where the Legislature had given the appointment of sheriffs, and some other little matters, out of their hands, and had been a long time endeavoring to get it back; but they had not been able to obtain it. He had no suspicions of any character in the Senate, but the constitution had made that body in some degree perpetual, to obtain a permanency in the laws; if, therefore, this revenue bill had once their approbation, they might be inclined to continue it, even against the sentiments of the people and of the House. Though he was not against trusting the gentlemen who now composed the Senate, he was against trusting their successors.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, was also in favor of the clause; he conceived the only reason of weight urged against it, related to the restoration of public credit; but he thought every person possessed of the stock or debt of the United States would have the same feelings and reasoning as the House; they would know that their demands depended upon a higher source than Congress, and might be sure that we would do our duty in making particular provision. If Congress neglected this, one part of the creditors would compel them. If it was found that the United States were not disposed to pay their debts, foreigners would find the means to make them. Taking it therefore for granted, that Congress would always provide for these objects, he would proceed to consider what effect might arise from a permanent or temporary provision. If the latter were made, the creditors would honor us for our exertions, and confide in our continuing to provide for them in the manner we should find upon experience most convenient to the community. If the system was declared to be a perpetual provision for the payment of their interest, it would give no hope, in the first place, for the redemption of the capital; and in the second, if Congress were to alter it, and which, in all probability they shortly must, the security would be impaired, and an essential injury done to the public credit, which we are so desirous to revive.

Mr. AMES considered this as a very important question; and in order that his own mind might be fully enlightened, he had listened with the most unwearied attention to the arguments urged on both sides; but he was far from being satisfied that the motion was necessary or proper for the House to adopt.

Gentlemen tell us they are willing to make the revenue commensurate with the debt. If they do this, all the inconveniences resulting from the imperfection of the system will be entailed upon us for a number of years. Other gentlemen mention a year or two for its limitation. Can the House listen seriously to such a proposition? If we were to tell our creditors that we are making provision for them for one year, would it tend to inspire them with confidence in our wisdom or justice? Would our foreign creditors believe we were scrupulously fulfilling our engagements with them? No: nothing less than a fixed, permanent system, can beget confidence or give security. An illusory system of one or two years' duration would engender distrust; its very visage would make the public suspect deception. If we do not mean to deceive, why not make the provision commensurate to the occasion? His idea of a temporary act was pro hac vice, by way of experiment: but he thought the House could not make the experiment with this bill, because the public credit would not admit of it. If this act be made for one year, will it not be a considerable expense to the public by going over all the ground again, which had taken the House such a length of time to discuss?

What has been the conduct of Great Britain, in relation to her funds? What has carried the credit of that kingdom to a superior eminence, but the attention she has paid to public credit? He considered these advantages as having made that nation rich and powerful. He believed a like conduct on our part would produce the same consequences, because our Government is of such a nature as to give the public creditors the greatest security they could wish. If the revenue is appropriated, and the law for collecting it is without any limitation, the funds cannot be taken away without a positive act of injustice, to which both Houses of the Legislature must assent by a majority of two-thirds, or three independent parties must unite. It was therefore three to one in favor of the public creditor, that the funds appropriated to his use would not be annihilated. Under these circumstances, Government might more safely be trusted. This, he observed, was not the case under despotic princes; their will alone could tear away the security of the subject. Under a pure democracy, the case was almost as bad; no confidence could be placed, because the caprice and whim of one body could dictate a change.

Mr. PAGE expressed his surprise to find gentlemen opposed to the limitation of the bill, who had complained so much of its imperfections. He thought a measure of the kind now proposed absolutely necessary to reconcile these gentlemen to particular parts of the bill. For his own part, he had objections to some articles, and for that reason, if there was no other, he would be in favor of the limitation. It had been frequently asserted that half the revenue would be lost by smuggling. Can this, then, he would ask, be a bill proper to perpetuate, or fit for the restoration of the credit of the United States? He asked gentlemen whether they would lend a hand to rivet round the necks of their fellow-citizens a regulation which experience had convinced them was unjust, unequal, and oppressive? Yet the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. AMES) had declared that experience had convinced him that at least one particular article was subjected to a duty of this kind.

Mr. GERRY asked his colleague if he advocated carrying the taxes to such an extent as to accumulate sums in the treasury for which the United States had no particular use? Yet if this revenue law were made perpetual, it would collect money into the public coffers after the national debt was paid. This would be such a temptation to the Executive to possess itself by force of the treasures of the nation, as he hoped would never be put in its way. If our commerce and population increased, this revenue would increase in the same proportion. He could not, therefore, bear the idea of all this money being collected into one spot, unless there was an absolute demand for it. He thought it incompatible with the liberty and security of the people, and therefore hoped the House would agree to a short limitation.

Mr. MADISON, for the sake of accommodation, would make another proposition. He was extremely sorry to differ with gentlemen about modes, when their object appeared to be the same. He thought the spirit of the constitution and the structure of the Government rendered it improper to pass a perpetual revenue law. The arguments had been clear on this point; but as there was an evident propriety in making the means commensurate to the occasion, he was inclined to give the bill such a perpetuity as would answer the purpose of providing for the public debt and restoring the national credit. He thought this might be done by modifying his motion so as to refer to the collection bill; for he hoped, before that passed, the House would be able to ascertain the appropriation, and could limit it accordingly. The words he would propose were, that this act should not continue and be in force longer than the ---- day of ----, unless otherwise limited by the act providing for the appropriation. As he had heard it intimated that the yeas and nays would be called on this question, he was desirous of rendering the clause as satisfactory as possible.

Mr. AMES could not bear to lie under the imputation of inconsistency, with which he was charged, inasmuch as he contended against the limitation of a bill he had opposed as oppressive in some of its parts. He believed the amendment now offered was new to almost every gentleman. For his part, he had always supposed it was intended as a permanent system. He remembered many gentlemen made use of this expression, through the various debates which had taken place in the several stages of the bill. He had understood it in this light, and had therefore combated, with some degree of energy, such parts as appeared to him impolitic or unjust. He imagined the gentlemen on both sides had labored to make the bill as perfect as possible, with a view of making an equitable provision for the public exigencies, which should affect all parts of the Union with the greatest degree of impartiality.

Mr. SHERMAN observed, that when Congress applied to the several States for the five per cent. impost, they judged it would enable them to extinguish the national debt in twenty-five years; but, in addition to this fund, they expected to make annual requisitions on the States, for one and a half million of dollars at least; so that gentlemen could not expect the whole to be paid by this single fund in a short time. He wished a limitation to the law in general terms, such as until the debt, foreign and domestic, is discharged. He thought a short term would made an unfavorable impression upon the minds of the public creditors, and tend in a great measure to cloud the happy prospects that began to brighten the political hemisphere of this country.

Mr. GERRY expressed an intention of calling the yeas and nays if he was supported, because he thought it a question in which the essential interests of the people were deeply involved.

Mr. LAWRENCE said, he held his present opinion upon the purest principles of patriotism, and an ardent love for his country's happiness. He had no objection to the yeas and nays being taken, as he was not inclined to disguise his sentiments.

Mr. PAGE was glad the yeas and nays were called, as it would give gentlemen an opportunity of showing to their constituents their approbation of a measure calculated to secure the blessings of liberty to themselves and posterity.

Several members rose to speak on this question, when Mr. AMES moved the adjournment, fearing gentlemen would grow warm upon the question.

Whereupon, the House adjourned.

SATURDAY, May 16.

Mr. SENEY, from Maryland, presented to the House an act of the Legislature of that State, offering to the acceptance of Congress ten miles square of territory, in any part of the said State, for the seat of the Federal Government, which was read and ordered to lie on the table.

Duties on Imports.

The House resumed the consideration of the amendment proposed yesterday to the bill for laying a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United States, and the said amendment read as follows: "And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, that this act shall be in force until the ---- day of ----, and from thence until the end of the next session of Congress which shall happen thereafter."

The question was called for, and Mr. LAWRENCE required the ayes and noes.

Mr. JACKSON wished to say a few words on the bill. The ayes and noes being called for, he conceived it his duty to state his reasons for his vote. He declared himself to be in favor of the limitation, for the reasons offered by honorable gentlemen yesterday. He said he had as ardent a desire to re-establish public credit, and place it on a good footing, as any member on that floor, yet he did not think making this law perpetual would have that tendency. He had no doubt but every subsequent Legislature would be equally desirous of doing justice to the creditors of the Union, and he therefore felt no uneasiness in leaving such provision to be made by them. If the next Legislature were disposed to violate the public honor, would the law now under consideration stand in their way? For his part, he could not conceive it an insuperable bar. He believed there was not a member who liked every part of the bill. Under these circumstances, what was to be expected but complaints from the people, and a consequent repeal of the bill? He did not wish to insinuate that the Senate would be so depraved as to oppose the public voice, but they might misunderstand it; they were a permanent body, and might be more inclined to support what they considered the honor of the Government than the convenience of the people.

The House of Representatives appeared to him to be the body best calculated to know and feel the interests of their immediate constituents; they ought, therefore, to preserve the power of redressing grievances, and not give too much into the hands of the Senate. He acknowledged the claims which those that fought and bled for their country had upon the justice of Congress; but he did not believe that class of citizens would complain or murmur at this House for keeping the purse strings in their hands, when it was considered necessary to the security and happiness of the people.

Mr. WHITE did not see the necessity of calling the yeas and nays: he thought the measure was intended to have one of these two objects, either to show one part of the House had mistaken the interest of their country, and ought to be held up to posterity, in order that their memories may be charged with their want of knowledge; or that there is a part of this House who think themselves more wise and patriotic than the majority. He never called the yeas and nays in his life, nor believed he ever should; but he was willing to have his vote appear, in all cases, when gentlemen thought proper to perpetuate the decision of the House in that way. On this occasion he would vote in favor of the amendment, and would endeavor to answer the objections, which, if well founded, would be a subject of great uneasiness in his mind, considering how he intended to give his vote.

He would now proceed to examine, whether rendering this law perpetual would be a wise and prudent measure. It had been well observed by the gentleman from Georgia, (Mr. JACKSON,) that every part of the law would bear harder on some States than on others; perhaps there was no State in the Union which would not be in some degree dissatisfied. He could perceive, by the sentiments of gentlemen in this House, that the burthens would be peculiarly felt; under these impressions, gentlemen have expressed themselves more warmly than perhaps they ought. There had been predictions of the most dangerous consequences of high duties, which he would not repeat; if these dangers were not imaginary, would it be prudent in the House, to risk these consequences, and make these dangers unavoidable by rendering the law perpetual.

Much pains had been taken to impose the burthens as equally as possible. If the duty on molasses bears hard upon one State, the tonnage duty would bear equally so upon others. But still it is probable, that there are unequal pressures laid by the bill, which experience alone could enable the Legislature to alter to the satisfaction of all parties. The system was great, complex, and comprehensive; it embraces commerce, manufactures, agriculture, finance, and, in short, every thing in which a nation can be concerned. Will it be prudent, then, under our present disadvantages, and without information, to enact a law affecting the highest interests of the people, which can never be repealed but by the consent of three independent bodies? Gentlemen have told us, that no valuable purpose can be answered by making the law temporary; now, he thought a valuable purpose could be answered by it. The two Houses of Congress, with the qualified negative of the President, formed the legislative power of the United States; they are distinct powers to be exercised by both branches of the Legislature. The House had been told, on a former occasion, that the Senate possessed greater powers than the Representatives. He admitted that, in some instances, they had greater powers; but with respect to revenue matters, they certainly had less, and very properly so. Shall we then give up to a body, who has already a superiority over us, those superior powers which we possess relative to revenue? A perpetual system would give the Senate greater advantages than constitutionally they ought to enjoy. He thought it of little consequence for the House to possess the right of originating money bills, if those money bills were made perpetual. The exercise of this right would be lost, and he thought it necessary that every part of Government should feel itself dependent upon the people. We have been told, with truth, that the Senate are a virtuous body; they are so, and he hoped would remain so, for ages yet to come, nay for ever; and, in his legislative capacity, he would act upon no other supposition. But still it ought to be remembered, that they would always be men, and liable to all the errors, frailties, and infirmities, with the rest of their fellow-mortals; besides, they were constituted in some measure for purposes to which the other branch was incompetent; while this House was constituted for purposes for which the Senate is unequal. It is a well-grounded republican maxim, that taxation and representation should depend each on the other. The people should be taxed only by representatives chosen for that purpose. This principle was written in the hearts of our British ancestors; it had been maintained by the best blood of our citizens, and he hoped it would descend with the fullest energy to our posterity. What, said he, are we about to do? A great branch of revenue, indeed the only branch, to which an application is now proper, or expected by the people, is about to be put out of our hands for ever; for it would not be in the power of this House, or any future House, to annihilate those funds without the consent of the Senate and the concurrence of the President. Now, the Senate are not an equal representation of the people; in that body the States have equal numbers, while, in this House, the representation is proportioned to their population. Delaware sends one, Georgia three, and Virginia ten. Is it possible, in the nature of things, that two Senators can be as well acquainted with the feelings and interest of the people of Virginia, as ten men selected from among them, and taken from the several parts of the State? Will the people be satisfied to have that body able to continue a revenue system which their immediate representatives think oppressive, or perhaps unnecessary? Certainly they would not; whatever the wisdom and virtue of the Senate may be, he was convinced they were not competent to those peculiar objects for which a just representation was absolutely necessary. The Senate, it is true, is not a House of Lords; they do not possess any properties materially distinguishing them from the members of the House of Representatives; but, though the distinction is not so striking in the one case as in the other, yet it was nevertheless real. The House of Lords is created by the King, and is a permanent body; the Senate is chosen by the State Legislatures, and though the individuals have not a permanency in office, yet the body never ceases to exist. These circumstances, in the constitution of the Senate, afforded a powerful objection to the new system of Government, and the people would never have adopted it, had they supposed that the powers of this body were unlimited in continuing a system of taxation, which had at any time met the approbation of their particular representatives.[23]

Mr. TUCKER did not think it necessary to give his opinion otherwise than by his vote, because gentlemen, who had yesterday delivered their sentiments in favor of the clause, had anticipated what he had to say. But as he found himself influenced by the call for the ayes and noes on this question, he should be induced to state some of his reasons in favor of the amendment. He said, he was glad the ayes and noes had been called, and if it had not been done by any other gentleman, he should have conceived himself bound to have done it; because he did not think himself at liberty, but on very particular occasions, to make a law perpetual. He wished to see a doctrine established, never to pass a law without limitation, unless justified by some extraordinary circumstances. Nothing, he thought, could ever justify such an act but the immutability of the object, and the absolute necessity and simplicity of every thing relating to it. If the House passed a perpetual revenue law, which had not an immutable object, they would abridge their own power, and destroy one of the great privileges of the people. Every bill of this nature, more or less, narrows the powers of this House, and throws it into the hands of the Executive and a minority of the Senate; for it is to be considered, that whenever we pass a bill on any subject, every matter in that bill contained is given up to the Executive and one-third of the Senators, so much so that it is out of the power of this House, even with a unanimous vote, to recover any part of it.

Mr. SYLVESTER was in favor of the limitation clause. A good deal had been said in the House respecting the jarring interests of the several States. It had been confessed on all hands, that this was an experimental law: he viewed it as such, and expected, in the course of a few years, the Legislature would be able to discover the errors of this day. But what advantage can result from their knowledge, if they have not power to make the necessary alterations, or to build up a new system more perfect than the old? He had examined the annals of history, but was unable to discover that any nation had ever established a perpetual revenue law. He imagined gentlemen would admit these reasons to be sufficient to warrant the vote they were about to give.

Mr. SINNICKSON did not expect this was to be a perpetual law, incapable of alteration; but he wished to see it a permanent system. The idea of a temporary system was long ago said to be out of the contemplation of the House. He should only observe, in addition to this, that our credit depended essentially upon what should be done at this time. He thought if the revenue existed merely upon the breath of the Legislature, for one or two years at a time, we should never attain that object. He thought that the public good required something substantial to be done in favor of those who had lent the public money in the hour of distress.

Mr. BOUDINOT thought himself obliged to say a few words more, in order to justify the part he should take in the division of the House on this question. He conceived the manner in which the motion was brought before the House, after the bill was supposed to be gone through, did not give such opportunity for the members to consider the subject as its importance seemed to require, and which might have been had if it had been brought forward at an earlier period.

If, said he, we are to have the measures of the Parliament of Great Britain hung about our necks in all our public proceedings, and observations from their practice perpetually sounding in our ears, that practice ought to be defined and established. He believed that in the whole volumes of the statute law, there was not one single revenue act to be found with a limitation. He believed that the revenue laws, passed fifty, sixty, eighty, and near a hundred years ago, in that kingdom, existed at the present moment. We have long seen and been convinced of the infirmities of the former confederation, and shall we now rivet those infirmities upon the present constitution? Are we never to stand upon a certain and solid foundation? Is not our public credit totally gone? Has not experience convinced us that the loss of it would have been our total destruction, if the generous exertions we have lately made had not revived some degree of confidence in our future measures? Are we not so deeply in debt as to give us reason to believe that it will require many years to emancipate ourselves? If this is the case, will a revenue law for one or two years bring that relief which is expected? Will this prevent an increase of the public debt? Will it restore value to the evidences of that debt held by our creditors? He would ask any man, whether, if the United States were in the situation in which they were last war, he would be induced to lend money upon a temporary and inadequate fund provided for two years? He believed the answer would be in the negative.

Mr. MADISON withdrew his motion in order to introduce another, which he hoped would reconcile both sides of the House. He joined those gentlemen who opposed the clause in thinking that one or two years would be a period insufficient to answer the purposes in contemplation. If the House agree to the clause he would substitute for the one just withdrawn, he would move to fill the blank with a more distant day. His motion was, that this act shall not continue in force after the ---- day of ---- unless otherwise provided in the act for the appropriation of the revenue.

Mr. FITZSIMONS seconded the motion.

Mr. SHERMAN liked this motion better than the other. Although he was in favor of leaving the law at large, he would vote for this clause, if the blanks were filled up with a sufficient time to accomplish those objects which the Government had in view in providing revenue.

Mr. AMES thought the question would recur when the appropriation or collecting bill came before them; he would rather, for his own part, decide the question at this moment, than consume the time of the House with another debate. Besides the House was not in possession of an act for appropriating the revenue; such a measure might never be agreed to; therefore he hoped the decision would take place at this time rather than be evaded.

Mr. FITZSIMONS was of opinion, that this revenue ought to be appropriated to the payment of the public debts; what were the views of other gentlemen he could not say. He was nevertheless in favor of limiting the law, and that upon constitutional principles, though he wished it commensurate to its object. Gentlemen had said a great deal respecting the imperfection of the system, that it was the effect of compromise; but nevertheless, he thought it as free from defects as it was possible a revenue system could be formed with such materials as the House possessed; but if it was imperfect, he did not see the difficulties some gentlemen mentioned, in altering and amending it when experience shall have pointed out its defects.

Mr. BOUDINOT acquiesced in the motion now brought forward for the sake of accommodation, although he thought the bill would stand better without any limitation clause whatever.

Mr. PAGE was against the latter part of this clause. It had been justly said, that the bill would be oppressive; but, from the necessity of the times, the people will submit to it. Shall we not let them see the end of their burthen in the law itself? Are they to look into another bill for that purpose? Perhaps after the Senate have agreed to this act, they may oppose the limitation in the subsequent one; they may insist upon having this in perpetuity, and then the object which the House have in view will be defeated.

Mr. SMITH, of South Carolina, moved a division of the question.

Mr. LEE wished to strike out that part of the motion which related to the exception.

Mr. LIVERMORE seconded Mr. LEE.

The question was put, and that part of the clause lost.

The question now stood as originally introduced to the House.

The previous question was then demanded by five members: Shall the main question be now put? And on the question, shall the main question be now put? it was resolved in the affirmative.

And then the main question being put, that the House do agree to the amendment proposed to the said bill, it was resolved in the affirmative--ayes 41, noes 8.

The ayes and noes being called for by one-fifth of the members present:

Those who voted in the affirmative, are,

Messrs. Abraham Baldwin, Egbert Benson, Theodorick Bland, Ædanus Burke, Daniel Carroll, Isaac Coles, Benjamin Contee, Thomas Fitzsimons, William Floyd, George Gale, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, Benjamin Goodhue, Samuel Griffin, Jonathan Grout, John Hathorn, Daniel Heister, Benjamin Huntington, James Jackson, Richard Bland Lee, George Leonard, Samuel Livermore, James Madison, junior, Andrew Moore, Peter Muhlenberg, John Page, Josiah Parker, George Partridge, Jeremiah Van Rensselaer, Joshua Seney, Thomas Scott, William Smith, William Smith, of South Carolina, Jonathan Sturgis, Peter Sylvester, Jonathan Trumbull, Thos. Tudor Tucker, John Vining, Jeremiah Wadsworth, Alexander White, and Henry Wynkoop.

Those who voted in the negative, are,

Messrs. Fisher Ames, Elias Boudinot, Lambert Cadwalader, George Clymer, John Lawrence, Roger Sherman, Thomas Sinnickson, and George Thatcher.

The clause being added, it was agreed to fill the blank so as to read the first day of June, 1796.

Ordered, That the said bill, with the amendments, be engrossed, and read the third time to-day.[24]

MONDAY, May 18.

Resolved, That leave be given to bring in a bill concerning the importation of certain persons into the United States, prior to the year 1808, and that Mr. PARKER, Mr. SINNICKSON, and Mr. MUHLENBERG, do prepare and bring in the same.

TUESDAY, May 19.

Executive Departments.

On motion of Mr. BOUDINOT, the House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union. Mr. TRUMBULL in the chair.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--I rise, Mr. Chairman, with diffidence, to introduce a subject to the consideration of the committee, which I had hopes would have been brought forward by an abler hand; the pressing necessity of it must alone be my excuse. The great executive departments which were in existence under the late confederation, are now at an end, at least so far as not to be able to conduct the business of the United States. If we take up the present constitution, we shall find it contemplates departments of an executive nature in aid of the President: it then remains for us to carry this intention into effect, which I take it will be best done by settling principles for organizing them in this place, and afterwards appoint a select committee to bring in a bill for the same.

I need say little to convince gentlemen of the necessity which presses us into a pursuit of this measure. They know that our national debt is considerable; the interest on our foreign loans, and the instalments due, amount to two millions of dollars. This arrearage, together with the domestic debt, is of great magnitude, and it will be attended with the most dreadful consequences to let these affairs run into confusion and ruin, for want of proper regulations to keep them in order.

I shall move the committee therefore to come to some such resolution as this: That an officer be established for the management of the finances of the United States, at the head of which shall be an officer to be denominated the Secretary of Finance. I am not tenacious of the style, perhaps some other may be proper, but the object I have in view is to establish the department; after which we may go on to narrate the duties of the officer, and accommodate the name to the acts he is to perform. The departments under the late constitution are not to be models for us to form ours upon by reason of the essential change which has taken place in the Government, and the new distribution of legislative, executive, and judicial powers.

If gentlemen then agree with me so far, I shall proceed to restrain the Secretary of Finance, and all persons under him, from being concerned in trade or commerce, and make it his duty to superintend the treasury and the finances of the United States, examine the public debts and engagements, inspect the collection and expenditure of the revenue, and to form and digest plans for its improvement. There may be other duties which gentlemen may add, as I do not pretend to have perfectly enumerated them all. After this point is settled, we may then go to the consideration of the War Department, and the Department of Foreign Affairs; but, for the present, I would wish to confine ourselves to the Department of Finance.

Mr. BENSON wished the committee to consider what he judged to be a previous question, namely, how many departments there should be established? He approved of the division mentioned by the gentleman; but would, with his leave, move that there be established in aid of the Chief Magistrate, three executive departments, to be severally denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs, Treasury, and War. After determining this question, if it was a proper division, the committee might proceed to enumerate the duties which should be attached to each.

Mr. BOUDINOT said, he could apologize for not bringing the business on in another way. It seemed to be a settled point in the House that a Committee of the Whole was the proper place for determining principles before they were sent elsewhere; he had therefore adopted that mode on the present occasion, though his own judgment would incline him to pursue that last mentioned by the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. BLAND.) He conceived the necessity of having such an office was indisputable; the Government could not be carried on without it; but there may be a question with respect to the mode in which the business of the office shall be conducted; there may also be a question respecting the constitution of it, but none with respect to the establishment of either of the three departments he had mentioned.

Mr. BENSON said, his motion was founded upon the constitutional division of these powers; the constitution contemplated them, because it gave the President the right of requiring the opinion of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices. If gentlemen were inclined to waive the determination for the present, he had no objection; it was certainly a subject of great importance, and required time for consideration.

Mr. VINING thought the gentleman should have added another department, viz: the Home Department. The territorial possessions of the United States, and the domestic affairs, would be objects of the greatest magnitude, and he suspected would render it essentially requisite to establish such a one.

Mr. BOUDINOT wished to confine the question to the Department of Finance.

A motion was made by Mr. BLAND for the committee's rising.

Mr. MADISON hoped they would not rise until the principles were settled. He thought it much better to determine the outlines of all business in a Committee of the Whole. He was satisfied it would be found, on experience, to shorten their deliberations. If the gentlemen who had offered motions to the committee would withdraw them, he would offer one which he judged likely to embrace the intentions of both gentlemen.

Mr. BENSON withdrew his motion, and Mr. MADISON moved, that it is the opinion of this committee, that there shall be established an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs, at the head of which there shall be an officer, to be called the Secretary to the Department of Foreign Affairs, who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate; and to be removable by the President.

That there shall be a Treasury Department, &c.

That there shall be a War Department, &c.

Mr. VINING seconded the motion, and offered to amend it, by adding the Domestic Department, mutatis mutandis. He said this department, in his opinion, was of absolute necessity, more requisite than either of the other three, except the Department of Finance; the present and increasing duties of such a department will oblige them to make the establishment.

Mr. LIVERMORE was not prepared to decide on the question even as now brought forward, nor did he see a reason why the Department of Foreign Affairs was placed at the head of the list. He thought the Treasury Department of more importance, and consequently deserved the precedence.

As to the Domestic Department just mentioned by the gentleman from Delaware, he thought its duties might be blended with the others, and thereby save the United States the expense of one grand department. If the gentleman, therefore, would wait to see what were the duties assigned to them severally, he would be able to judge respecting his motion with greater propriety.

Mr. VINING withdrew his motion for the present.

And the committee agreed to the establishment of the Department of Foreign Affairs, and placing at the head thereof an officer to be called the Secretary of Foreign Affairs; but when they came to the mode of appointing the officer,

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina) moved to strike out the words "who shall be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate." He conceived the words to be unnecessary; besides, it looked as if they were conferring power, which was not the case, for the constitution had expressly given the power of appointment in the words there used. He also objected to the subsequent part of this paragraph, because it declared the President alone to have the power of removal.

Mr. PAGE saw no impropriety in passing an act to carry into execution the views of the constitution, and therefore had no objection to repeat those words in the resolution. He thought if the committee stopped there, they would be under no difficulty respecting the propriety of their measure, but if they went further they might meet with considerable embarrassment.

Mr. MADISON remarked, that as there was a discretionary power in the Legislature to give the privilege to the President alone of appointing inferior officers, there could be no injury in declaring in the resolution the constitutional mode of appointing the heads of departments; however, if gentlemen were uneasy, he would not object to strike it out.

Mr. LEE thought this officer was an inferior officer; the President was the great and responsible officer of the Government; this was only to aid him in performing his executive duties; hence he conceived the power of appointing to be in the gift of the Legislature, and therefore the words were proper.

Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina.)--This officer is at the head of a department, and one of those who are to advise the President; the inferior officers mentioned in the constitution are clerks and other subordinate persons. The words are only a repetition of the words in the constitution, and are consequently superfluous.

The question was taken on striking out those words, and carried in the affirmative.

The committee proceeded to the discussion of the power of the President to remove this officer.

Mr. SMITH said, he had doubts whether the officer could be removed by the President. He apprehended he could only be removed by an impeachment before the Senate, and that, being once in office, he must remain there until convicted upon impeachment. He wished gentlemen would consider this point well before they decided it.

Mr. MADISON did not concur with the gentleman in his interpretation of the constitution. What, said he, would be the consequence of such construction? It would in effect establish every officer of the Government on the firm tenure of good behavior; not the heads of departments only, but all the inferior officers of those departments, would hold their offices during good behavior, and that to be judged of by one branch of the Legislature only on the impeachment of the other. If the constitution means this by its declarations to be the case, we must submit; but I should lament it as a fatal error interwoven in the system, and one that would ultimately prove its destruction. I think the inference would not arise from a fair construction of the words of that instrument.

It is very possible that an officer who may not incur the displeasure of the President, may be guilty of actions that ought to forfeit his place. The power of this House may reach him by the means of an impeachment, and he may be removed even against the will of the President; so that the declaration in the constitution was intended as a supplemental security for the good behavior of the public officers. It is possible the case I have stated may happen. Indeed, it may, perhaps, on some occasion, be found necessary to impeach the President himself; surely, therefore, it may happen to a subordinate officer, whose bad actions may be connived at or overlooked by the President. Hence the people have an additional security in this constitutional provision.

I think it absolutely necessary that the President should have the power of removing from office; it will make him, in a peculiar manner, responsible for their conduct, and subject him to impeachment himself, if he suffers them to perpetrate with impunity high crimes or misdemeanors against the United States, or neglects to superintend their conduct, so as to check their excesses. On the constitutionality of the declaration I have no manner of doubt.

Mr. BENSON.--If we refer to the constitution for light on this subject, it will appear evident that the objection is not well founded. The objection is this, that an officer ought not to be removed but by impeachment; then every officer is appointed during good behavior. Now, the constitution expressly declares, that the Judges, both of the Supreme and Inferior Courts, shall hold their offices during good behavior. If it is declared, that they are to hold their offices by this particular tenure, it follows that the other officers of the Government should hold them only at pleasure. He thought this an important question, and one in which they were obliged to take the constitution by construction. For although it detailed the mode of appointing to office, it was not explicit as to the supersedure; this clause, therefore, would be a mere declaration of the legislative construction on this point. He thought the importance and necessity of making the declaration, that the Chief Magistrate might supersede any civil officer was evident, and he should therefore vote in favor of the clause as it stood.

Mr. VINING said, there were no negative words in the constitution to preclude the President from the exercise of this power; but there was a strong presumption that he was invested with it: because it was declared, that all executive power should be vested in him, except in cases where it is otherwise qualified; as, for example, he could not fully exercise his executive power in making treaties, unless with the advice and consent of the Senate--the same in appointing to office.

He viewed the power of removal, by impeachment, as a supplementary security to the people against the continuance of improper persons in office; but it did not consist with the nature of things, that this should be the only mode of removal; it was attended with circumstances that would render it insufficient to secure the public safety, which was a primary object in every Government. Witness a transatlantic instance of its incompetency--he meant the famous case of Mr. Hastings. With what difficulty was that prosecution carried on! What a length of time did it take to determine! What is to be done while the impeachment is depending? For, according to the ideas of the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. SMITH,) he cannot be removed but on conviction. If he cannot be removed, I should suppose he cannot be suspended; and what security have the people against the machinations of a bad man in office? He had no doubt but the constitution gave this power to the President; but if doubts were entertained, he thought it prudent to make a legislative declaration of the sentiments of Congress on this point. He was therefore in favor of the clause.

Mr. BLAND thought the power given by the constitution to the Senate, respecting the appointment to office, would be rendered almost nugatory if the President had the power of removal. If the first nomination of the President should be disapproved by the Senate, and the second agreed to, he had nothing to do but wait the adjournment of Congress, and then fill the vacancy with his favorite; who, by thus getting into the possession of the office, would have a considerable chance of permanency in it. He thought it consistent with the nature of things, that the power which appointed should remove; and would not object to a declaration in the resolution, if the words were added, that the President shall remove from office, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. He agreed that the removal by impeachment was a supplementary aid favorable to the people; but he was clearly of opinion, that the same power that appointed had, or ought to have, the power of removal.

Mr. JACKSON wished the motion had been referred to a sub-committee to digest: it seemed to him they were building the house before the plan was drawn. He wished to see the system reduced to writing, that he might leisurely judge of the necessity and propriety of each office and its particular duties.

With respect to the question before the House he was of opinion that if the House had the power of removal by the constitution, they could not give it out of their hands; because every power recognized by the constitution must remain where it was placed by that instrument. But the words in the constitution declare, in positive terms, that all civil officers shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, high crimes and misdemeanors; and however long it may take to decide, in this way it must be done. He did not think the case of Mr. Hastings ought to be brought forward as a precedent for conducting such business in the United States. He believed, whenever an impeachment was brought before the Senate, they would proceed with all imaginable speed to its termination. He should, in case of impeachment, be willing to go so far as to give the power of suspension to the President, and he thought this all the security which the public safety required; it would prevent the party from doing further mischief. He agreed with the gentleman in the general principle, that the body who appointed ought to have the power of removal, as the body which enacts laws can repeal them; but if the power is deposited in any particular department by the constitution, it is out of the power of the House to alter it.

Mr. MADISON did not conceive it was a proper construction of the constitution to say, that there was no other mode of removing from office than that by impeachment; he believed this, as applied to the Judges, might be the case, but he could never imagine it extended in the manner which gentlemen contended for. He believed they would not assert, that any part of the constitution declared, that the only way to remove should be by impeachment; the contrary might be inferred, because Congress may establish offices by law; therefore, most certainly, it is in the discretion of the Legislature to say upon what terms the office shall be held, either during good behavior or during pleasure. Under this construction, the principles of the constitution would be reconcilable in every part; but under that of the gentleman from South Carolina, it would be incongruous and faulty. He wondered how the gentleman from Georgia (Mr. JACKSON) would reconcile his principles so far as to permit the President to suspend the officer. He begged his colleague (Mr. BLAND) to consider the inconvenience his doctrine would occasion, by keeping the Senate constantly sitting, in order to give their assent to the removal of an officer; they might see there would be a constant probability of the Senate being called upon to exercise this power, consequently they could not be a moment absent. Now, he did not believe the constitution imposed any such duty upon them; why, then, said he, shall we enjoin it, especially at such an expense of the public treasure?

Mr. BOUDINOT would by no means infringe the constitution by any act of his, for if he thought this motion would lead the committee beyond the powers assigned to the Legislature, he would give it a decided negative; but, on an impartial examination of that instrument, he could not see the least foundation for such an objection; however, he was glad the question had come forward, because he wished to give a legislative construction to this part of the constitution.

The gentlemen who denied the power of the President to remove from office, founded their opinion upon the fourth section of the second article of the constitution, where it is declared, that all officers shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason or bribery. If their construction is admissible, and no officer whatever is to be removed in any other way than by impeachment, we shall be in a deplorable situation indeed. Consider the extent of the United States, and the difficulty of conducting a prosecution against an officer, who, with the witnesses, resides a thousand miles from the seat of Government. But suppose the officer should, by sickness, or some other accident, be rendered incapable of performing the functions of the office, must he be continued? And yet it is to be apprehended, that such a disability would not furnish any good ground for impeachment; it could not be laid as treason or bribery, nor perhaps as a high crime or misdemeanor. Would gentlemen narrow the operation of the constitution in this manner, and render it impossible to be executed?

Mr. WHITE thought no office under the Government was to be held during pleasure, except those which are to be constituted by law; but all the heads of departments are to be appointed by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. He conceived that, in all cases, the party who appointed ought to judge of the removal, except in those cases which by the constitution are excepted; and in those cases impeachment and conviction are the only mode by which they can be removed.

Mr. THATCHER asked, why the Judges were particularly mentioned in the constitution as holding their offices during good behavior, if it was not supposed that, without this express declaration in their favor, they, in common with all other officers not immediately chosen by the State Legislatures and the people, would hold them during pleasure? The clause respecting impeachments was particularly calculated for removing unworthy officers of the other description. Holding this construction of the constitution to be right, he was in favor of the clause as it stood.

Mr. SYLVESTER thought the constitution ought to have a liberal construction, and therefore was of opinion that the clause relative to the removal by impeachment was intended as a check upon the President, as already mentioned by some gentlemen, and to secure to the people, by means of their representatives, a constitutional mode of obtaining justice against peculators and defaulters in office, who might be protected by the persons appointing them. He apprehended the doctrine held out by the gentleman from South Carolina would involve the Government in great difficulties, if not in ruin, and he did not see it was a necessary construction of the constitution. Why, then, should the House search for a meaning, to make the constitution inconsistent with itself, when a more rational one is at hand? He, however, inclined at present to the sentiments of the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. BLAND,) who thought the Senate ought to be joined with the President in the removal, as they were joined by the constitution in the appointment to office.

Mr. GOODHUE was decidedly against combining the Senate in this business. He wished to make the President as responsible as possible for the conduct of the officers who were to execute the duties of his own branch of the Government. If the removal and appointment were placed in the hands of a numerous body, the responsibility would be lessened. He admitted there was a propriety in allowing the Senate to advise the President in the choice of officers; this the constitution had ordained for wise purposes; but there could be no real advantage arising from the concurrence of the Senate to the removal, but great disadvantages. It might beget faction and party, which would prevent the Senate from paying proper attention to the public business. Upon the whole, he concluded the community would be served by the best men when the Senate concurred with the President in the appointment; but if any oversight was committed, it could best be corrected by the superintending agent. It was the peculiar duty of the President to watch over the executive officers; but of what avail would be his inspection, unless he had a power to correct the abuses he might discover.

Mr. GERRY.--The constitution provides for the appointment of the public officers in this manner: The President shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law. Now, if there be no other clause respecting the appointment, I shall be glad to see how the heads of departments are to be removed by the President alone. What clause is it that gives this power in express terms? I believe there is none such. If there is a power of removal, besides that by impeachment, it must vest somewhere. It must vest in the President, or in the President and Senate, or in the President, Senate, and House of Representatives. Now, there is no clause which expressly vests it in the President. I believe no gentleman contends it is in this House, because that would be that mingling of the executive and legislative powers gentlemen deprecate. I presume, then, gentlemen will grant, that if there is such a power, it vests with the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, who are the body that appoints. I think we ought to be cautious how we step in between the President and the Senate, to abridge the power of the one, or increase the other. If the power of removal vests where I suppose, we, by this declaration, undertake to transfer it to the President alone.

It has been mentioned, that it is proper to give this power to the President, in order to make him more fully responsible for this officer. I am for supporting the President to the utmost of my power, and making him as responsible as possible. I would therefore vest every gift of office, in the power of the Legislature, in the President alone; but I cannot think we ought to attempt to give him authority to remove from office, in cases where the constitution has placed it in other hands.

Mr. LIVERMORE considered this as a constitutional question, and was of opinion, that the same power which appointed an officer, had the right of removal also, unless it was restrained by an express declaration to the contrary. As the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, is empowered to appoint ambassadors, certainly they have a right to remove them and appoint others. In the case of the judges, they must be appointed for life, or during good behavior. He had no idea, that it could ever enter into the heart of any man living, that all officers appointed under the constitution were to have a perpetuity in office. The judges themselves would not have had this right, if it had not been expressly given by the constitution, but would be removable in like manner with ambassadors, other public ministers, and consuls. He took it, therefore, in the present case, that the President and the Senate would have the power of removing the Secretary of Foreign Affairs. The only question, therefore, which appears to be before the committee is, whether we shall give this power to the President alone? And with that he thought they had nothing to do. He supposed, if the clause was left out, the President and the Senate would proceed, as directed by the constitution, to appoint the officer; and hereafter, if they judged it necessary, would remove him; but if they neglected to do so, when it was necessary, by reason of his misdemeanors, this House would impeach him, and so get rid of him on conviction.

Mr. BLAND.--It seems to be agreed on all hands, that there does exist a power of removal; the contrary doctrine would be a solecism in Government. If an officer embezzles the public money, or neglects or refuses to do the duties of his appointment, can it be supposed there is no way of getting rid of such a person? He was certain it was essentially necessary such a power should be lodged somewhere, or it would be impossible to carry the Government into execution. Their inquiries were therefore reduced to this point: Does it reside, agreeably to the constitution, in the President, or in the President and the Senate? The constitution declares, that the President and the Senate shall appoint, and it naturally follows, that the power which appoints shall remove also. What would be the consequence of the removal by the President alone, he had already mentioned, and need not repeat. A new President might, by turning out the great officers, bring about a change of the ministry, and throw the affairs of the Union into disorder: would not this, in fact, make the President a monarch, and give him absolute power over all the great departments of Government? It signifies nothing that the Senate have a check over the appointment, because he can remove, and tire out the good disposition of the Senate.

Mr. CLYMER said, the power of removal was an executive power, and as such belonged to the President alone, by the express words of the constitution: "the executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." The Senate were not an executive body; they were a legislative one. It was true, in some instances, they held a qualified check over the executive power, but that was in consequence of an express declaration in the constitution; without such declaration, they would not have been called upon for advice and consent in the case of appointment. Why, then, shall we extend their power to control the removal which is naturally in the Executive, unless it is likewise expressly declared in the constitution?

The question on adding the words "by and with the advice and consent of the Senate," as moved by Mr. BLAND, was put and lost.

The question was now taken, and carried by a considerable majority, in favor of declaring the power of removal to be in the President.

WEDNESDAY, May 20.

Treasury Department.

The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, Mr. TRUMBULL in the chair. The resolution for establishing the Treasury Department being under consideration:

Mr. GERRY.--We are now called upon, Mr. Speaker, to deliberate, whether we shall place this all-important department in the hands of a single individual, or in a Board of Commissioners. I presume the gentleman, who has brought forward this string of propositions, means, that this officer shall have power to examine into the state of the public debt and expenses, to receive and disburse the revenue, to devise plans for its improvement and expansion, and, in short, to superintend and direct the receipts and expenditure, and govern the finances of the United States; having under him officers to do the subordinate business of registering and recording his transactions, and a Comptroller to control his operations with respect to the accounts and vouchers.

Before this committee proceed one step farther in this business, they ought seriously to consider the situation of this country, and what will be the consequence of appointing such an officer; consider how it will affect the public in general, the revenue, and even the Government itself. He is declared, in the list of duties assigned him in the paper read yesterday by the gentleman from New York, (Mr. BENSON,) to have the power to form and digest the accounts, and to control all the officers of the department. It is evident, that we put his integrity to the trial, by such an arrangement. If he is disposed to embezzle the public money, it will be out of the power of the Executive itself to check or control him in his nefarious practices. The extension of his business to the collectors of at least fifty seaports, (over whom the naval officer can have no control, with respect to the money received,) will furnish abundant opportunities for peculation. In addition to the moneys arising from the impost, he may have to do with large sums derived from other quarters, from the sale of the vacant lands, the money of defaulters now due to the United States, and the revenue arising from taxes and excises. Admit these innumerable opportunities for defrauding the revenue, without check or control, and it is next to impossible he should remain unsullied in his reputation, or innoxious with respect to misapplying his trust.

Other great opportunities may arise in case of an anticipation of the public revenue; or, if it is necessary to prevent the injury which a rapid depreciation of the securities would occasion to public credit, he may be employed in purchasing them, in order to advance the credit of the Union. But what is to prevent the greatest imposition in this business? Charging them to the public at their nominal value, it is not in the power of the Government to check this species of speculation; what then is the situation of your officer? He must subject himself to suspicion: indeed, it is as much as his reputation is worth to come into a place of this kind; he can hardly preserve his integrity. His honor, credit, and character, must inevitably be injured. He cannot prove himself innocent of the suspicion, because it is the negative side of the question. He can offer nothing more in his defence than a mere denial of the crime.

There is another point which ought to be well considered: This officer is to digest and form the accounts. He can consequently give the business such complexity, as to render it impossible to detect his impositions; and as the inferior officers, who might discover the fraud, are to be appointed by the principal, will they not consequently be men after his own heart?

Taking these circumstances together, it must be very disagreeable to the person appointed, provided he is an honest, upright man; it will be disagreeable also to the people of the Union, who will always have reason to suspect, that a partiality is shown to the collectors, and other officers of the State to which he belonged. This has absolutely been the case, and was productive of very great dissatisfaction. I would be glad to know of the gentlemen, who are for vesting these powers in a single person, where they will find the man who is capable of performing the duties of a financier? For it is not the mere calling him a financier, and giving him a large salary, that will enable him to perform his functions in such a manner as to give satisfaction. We had once a gentleman who filled such a department, and I believe the only one in the United States who had knowledge and abilities by any means competent to the business; but that gentleman is now employed in another branch of the Government, and cannot be called to this trust. During the late war, Congress thinking it necessary to employ a financier, were led to inquire for a proper character to fill such an office; but not being able to discover such a one in this country, in whose abilities they had sufficient confidence, they wrote to Doctor Price a letter, to induce him to come to America, and accept of an appointment under them, for the superintendence of their finances. He wrote, in answer, that he felt with gratitude the honor which they had done him by their application, and signified, that he was desirous of rendering every service in his power to aid the glorious cause in which America was embarked; but, from his advanced situation in life, and infirmities of body, he was under the necessity of declining. This circumstance serves to show how difficult it is to get a proper person for so arduous an undertaking. But it appears to me, that if we could fix upon a person equal to the office, involving him in forming accounts, and such trifling business, would divert his attention from the more important duties he is called upon to perform. The proper business of finance, I take it, ought to be to consider of the means to improve the revenue, and introducing economy into the expenditures; to recommend general systems of finance, without having any thing to do with the actual administration of them, because, if he engages in the executive business, we shall be deprived of his talents in more important concerns. If it should be granted that there is a person of abilities to be found, adequate to the duties of the office, I want to know where the advantage arises of appointing him alone in preference to a Board? If you have commissioners, you have an opportunity of taking one from each grand division of the United States, namely, the Eastern, the Middle, and Southern Districts. If this person is a member of the Board, is it not evident you will have every advantage from his abilities in such a situation, as you would if he were placed in office without control? If he was possessed of such genius, he could employ it more usefully as a Commissioner of the Board of Treasury, than when left to perform all the drudgery of the executive part; because while his fine imagination was busied in reducing a chaos to a beautiful system, his colleagues might perform those parts which required less elevation of thought; by dividing the burthen, the business would be done with more regularity and facility. Surely no advantage to the public would arise from giving him the sole management of the business, but much inconvenience might; besides, it must unavoidably, as I said before, subject him to suspicions unfavorable to his reputation. This has absolutely been realized; it is not a mere chimera, a matter of speculation. We have had a Board of Treasury, and we have had a Financier. Have not express charges, as well as vague rumors, been brought against him at the bar of the public? They may be unfounded, it is true; but it shows that a man cannot serve in such a station without exciting popular clamor. It is very well known, I dare say, to many gentlemen in this House, that the noise and commotion were such as obliged Congress once more to alter their Treasury Department, and place it under the management of a Board of Commissioners. We have seen speculations excited from this quarter against the Government itself, and painful insinuations of design by his appointment to the Senate. I mention these circumstances to exhibit to your view the inconveniencies to which an officer is subjected by constituting an office of this nature. If the gentleman I have alluded to had been a member of the Board of Treasury, he would not have been subjected to the charges which were brought against him. In such a situation, he could have rendered the services his great abilities enabled him to do, without exposing his character to be torn to pieces by malevolence or detraction.

I am desirous of supporting the President; but the Senate requires to be supported also in their constitutional rights. To this body belongs the confidence of the States; while the President rests his support upon them he will be secure. They, with this House, can give him proper information of what is for the public interest, and, by pursuing their advice, he will continue to himself that good opinion which is justly entertained of him. If we are to establish a number of such grand officers as these, the consequences appear to me pretty plain. These officers, bearing the titles of minister at war, minister of state, minister for the finances, minister of foreign affairs, and how many more ministers I cannot say, will be made necessary to the President. If by this establishment we make them more respectable than the other branches of the Government, the President will be induced to place more confidence in them than in the Senate; the people will also be led to consider them as more consequential persons. But all high officers of this kind must have confidence placed in them; they will in fact be the chancellors, the ministers of the nation. It will lead to the establishment of a system of favoritism, and the principal magistrate will be governed by these men. An oligarchy will be confirmed upon the ruin of the democracy; a Government most hateful will descend to our posterity, and all our exertions in the glorious cause of freedom will be frustrated: we shall go on till we reduce the powers of the President and Senate to nothing but a name. This surely, sir, does not comport with the conduct of the House. We have been very tenacious of giving a title to the President, lest it should be implied we desired to increase his power. We would call him by no other appellation than merely President of the United States. I confess I was not such a stickler about titles as all this, because I did not consider that the liberties of the people could be hurt by such means; but I am not clear that the constitution authorizes us to bestow titles; it is not among the enumerated powers of Congress. But if the constitution did authorize it--[A call to order was made by some of the members, and Mr. GERRY was desired to confine himself to the point; the subject of titles was not before the House.][25] Mr. GERRY proceeded, and said the Senate were constitutionally the highest officers of Government, except the President and Vice President; that the House was about to supersede them, and place over their heads a set of ministers who were to hold the reins of Government, and all this to answer no good purpose whatever; because the same services could be obtained from subordinate officers.

In short, a Board of Treasury would conduct the business of finance with greater security and satisfaction than a single officer. He had a very good opinion of the gentleman who formerly administered the finances of the United States, and doubted if another of equal qualities could be found; but it was impossible for any person to give satisfaction in such a station. Jealousy would unavoidably be entertained; besides, no inconvenience resulted from the present arrangement of that department; therefore, there could be no good reason to induce a change. If the House was truly republican and consistent, they would not admit officers, with or without titles, to possess such amazing powers as would eventually end in the ruin of the Government. Under these impressions, he moved to amend the resolution so as to read, "there shall be established a Treasury Department, at the head of which there shall be three commissioners, to be denominated the Board of Treasury."

Mr. WADSWORTH.--My official duty has led me often to attend at the treasury of the United States, and, from my experience, I venture to pronounce that a Board of Treasury is the worst of all institutions. They have doubled our national debt. (I do not mean by this observation to censure any man who has been in that office: I presume they were honest men, and did as well as could be done under such a system.) But I do not remember a single instance, in any one board, that I found them to have a system that would give even tolerable satisfaction; there appeared a want of confidence in the members of them all: they seemed to have no fixed principles to guide them, nor responsibility for their conduct.

I have had also transactions at the treasury whilst it was managed by a Superintendent of Finance. As to what fell from the gentleman last up, (though without intention, I dare say, to affect or prejudice the character of that officer, it may possibly have such an effect,) I think it necessary to state my sentiments, which are formed from my own experience as well as from report. I had great transactions with him, and must say that there did appear to be system in his management, and responsibility in his negotiations. I dare risk my fortune and character with him, because there was unity in the officer, and somebody in whom I could confide. The nature of the office is better calculated to give satisfaction than the other. I will not pretend to enumerate the savings he made, by introducing economy throughout the whole departments under Congress, because I do not know them all; but they were very considerable. The administration of the finances was clear to the meanest capacity. Receipts and expenditures were stated simply; they were published to the world. The heads of the Treasury Department, the Board of Commissioners, I do not believe have closed their accounts to this very day. I do not say it is for want of ability, will, or honesty, that this event has not taken place. I conceive it to be owing to their want of system in conducting their business. I wish the committee had before them the transactions of the board for one single month; they would find what I have remarked to be too well founded. Instead of system and responsibility, they would find nothing but confusion and disorder, without a possibility of checking their accounts. I know I am heard by one gentleman who is acquainted with these truths by experience.[26]

I beg leave to repeat once more, that under boards of treasury, there never was a possibility of the public knowing their situation; there is no possibility of getting on with the public accounts and closing them; there have not been the transactions of more than one of the great departments completely settled, owing to a radical defect in their constitution; they cannot proceed with that unity and decision necessary to insure justice. As to what the gentleman said, with respect to the difficulty of getting a proper officer to fill the department, I will just observe, that I do not believe it impossible, and am therefore prepared to attempt it.

Mr. BENSON stated, that in the year 1781, from the very great derangement of public affairs, Congress were induced to place the Treasury Department under the superintendence of an individual. It is true, after the conclusion of the war, in the latter end of 1783, or beginning of 1784, Congress again changed their system, and placed the department in the hands of three commissioners, to be taken, as the gentleman has said, one from the Eastern, one from the Middle, and one from the Southern district; which regulation I think induced above twenty applications. Some gentlemen on this floor will doubtless recollect an observation that was made at that time, that if this trust had been to be reposed in one responsible individual, not perhaps more than three of the candidates would have had confidence to come forward as applicants for the office.

For his part, he conceived, that it required the same abilities in every individual of the commissioners, as was necessary if a single person was placed at the head of the department. If men competent to the undertaking are so difficult to be found, you will increase the embarrassment of the President threefold by making the arrangement the gentleman contends for. The principle upon which the gentleman advocates the appointment of a Board of Treasury, would apply in favor of a change in the constitution, and we ought to have three Presidents of the United States instead of one, because their business might be done with more regularity and facility; but he did not think the argument to be well founded.

Mr. BALDWIN thought that there were very few gentlemen who had much to do with public business, but had turned their attention to this question. He had employed his reflection upon the subject for some time, and his sentiments were against the establishment of a Board of Treasury. He was persuaded there was not so much responsibility in boards as there was in individuals, nor is there such good ground for the exercise of the talents of a financier in that way. Boards were generally more destitute of energy than was an individual placed at the head of a department. The observations of the gentleman from Massachusetts were of great weight, so far as they inferred the necessity of proper checks in the department having care of the public money; if they had system, energy, and responsibility, he should be in favor of them; but his experience had convinced him of the contrary. He was not an advocate for an unlimited authority in this officer. He hoped to see proper checks provided; a Comptroller, Auditors, Register, and Treasurer. He would not suffer the Secretary to touch a farthing of the public money beyond his salary. The settling of the accounts should be in the Auditors and Comptroller; the registering them to be in another officer, and the cash in the hands of one unconnected with either. He was satisfied that in this way the treasury might be safe, and great improvements made in the business of revenue.

Mr. MADISON had intended to have given his sentiments on this subject; but he was anticipated in some things by the gentleman last up. He wished, in all cases of an executive nature, that the committee should consider the powers that were to be exercised, and where that power was too great to be trusted to an individual, proper care should be taken so to regulate and check the exercise, as would give indubitable security for the perfect preservation of the public interest, and to prevent that suspicion which men of integrity were ever desirous of avoiding. This was his intention in the present case. If the committee agreed to his proposition, he intended to introduce principles of caution, which he supposed would give satisfaction on that point. As far as was practicable, he would have the various business of this important branch of the Government divided and modified, so as to lull at least the jealousy expressed by the gentleman from Massachusetts; indeed, he supposed, with the assistance of the committee, it might be formed so as to give satisfaction. He had no doubt but that the offices might be so constituted as to restrain and check each other; and unless an unbounded combination took place, which he could by no means suppose was likely to be the case, that the public would be safe and secure under the administration. He would favor the arrangement mentioned by the worthy gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. BALDWIN,) and after that was separated from the Secretary's duties, he believed the officer would find sufficient business to employ his time and talents in rendering essential services to his country. This arrangement he considered would answer most of the objections which had been urged.

If a board is established, the independent officers of Comptroller and Auditor are unknown; you then give the aggregate of these powers to the board, the members of which are equal; therefore you give more power to each individual than is proposed to be trusted in the Secretary; and if apprehensions are to be entertained of a combination, they apply as forcibly in the case of two or three commissioners combining, as they do in the case of the Secretary, Comptroller, and other officers. If gentlemen permit these sentiments to have their full weight, and consider the advantages arising from energy, system, and responsibility, which were all in favor of his motion, he had no doubt of their according with him on this question.

Mr. BOUDINOT considered the question to be, whether the department should be under the direction of one or more officers. He was against boards, because he was convinced by experience that they are liable to all the objections which gentlemen had stated. He wished the committee had it in their power to turn to the transactions of this department since the revolution, to examine the expenditures under former boards of treasury, and under the Superintendent of Finance; it would so confound them, that he was sure no gentleman would offer another argument in favor of boards. He was not acquainted with the management under the present board. He had not been in the habit of doing business with them. But between the administration of the former and the Superintendent of Finance, there was an intolerable comparison. He was far from being astonished at the jealousy and suspicion entertained of that valuable officer; he rather wondered that the clamor was not more loud and tremendous. He could not repeat all the causes there were for accusation against him, but surely they were not inconsiderable. He remembered one hundred and forty-six supernumerary officers were brushed off in one day, who had long been sucking the vital blood and spirit of the nation. Was it to be wondered at, if this swarm should raise a buzz about him? The reform which daily took place made him no inconsiderable number of enemies. The expenditures under the Board of Treasury had been enormous. They were curtailed in the quartermasters, commissaries of provision and military stores, in the hospital, and every great department established by Congress; so that, besides those who were offended by a removal, every one who was affected by this economy, or parsimony, if they will call it so, were incensed against him. It was impossible to gain friends among those people by a practice of this kind. He would state a circumstance which might give the committee some small idea of what the savings under the Superintendent were. The expenditure of hay at a certain post was one hundred and forty tons; such was the estimate laid before him; yet twelve tons carried the post through the year, and the supply was abundant, and the post was as fully and usefully occupied as it had ever been before.

The question on the amendment proposed by Mr. GERRY was taken and lost; after which the resolutions respecting the Treasury and War Department, as proposed by Mr. MADISON, were both agreed to.

Mr. VINING then proposed the establishment of the Domestic Department upon the same principles; but, on motion of Mr. BOUDINOT, the committee rose and reported the resolutions agreed to.--Adjourned.

THURSDAY, May 21.

Executive Departments.

The House proceeded to consider the resolution reported yesterday from the Committee of the whole House on the state of the Union, and the same being amended to read as follows:

Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee that there ought to be established the following executive departments, viz: A Department of Foreign Affairs, at the head of which shall be an officer to be called Secretary to the United States for the Department of Foreign Affairs, removable by the President. A Treasury Department, at the head of which shall be an officer to be called Secretary to the United States for the Treasury Department, removable by the President. A Department of War, at the head of which shall be an officer to be called Secretary to the United States for the Department of War, removable by the President.

Resolved, That this House doth concur with the committee in the said resolution; and that a committee, to consist of eleven members, be appointed to prepare and bring in a bill or bills pursuant thereto.

The members elected were, Mr. BALDWIN, Mr. VINING, Mr. LIVERMORE, Mr. MADISON, Mr. BENSON, Mr. BURKE, Mr. FITZSIMONS, Mr. BOUDINOT, Mr. WADSWORTH, Mr. GERRY, and Mr. CADWALADER.

FRIDAY, May 22.

Contested Election.[27]

The House resumed the consideration of the report on Mr. SMITH'S case.

After some desultory conversation on the recommitment and mode of proceeding, it was agreed to examine the evidence in favor of Mr. SMITH, the facts alleged by Doctor Ramsay, in proof that Mr. SMITH was not seven years a citizen of the United States, being admitted. Whereupon, it being moved and seconded, that the House do agree to the following resolution:

Resolved, That it appears to this House, upon full and mature consideration, that the said WILLIAM SMITH had been seven years a citizen of the United States, at the time of his election.

Mr. SMITH.--As the House are inclined to hear the observations I have to make, I shall begin with admitting the facts stated in the memorial of Doctor Ramsay, hoping the House will excuse the egotism into which I am unavoidably drawn. I was born in Charleston, South Carolina, of a family whose ancestors were among the first settlers of that colony, and was sent to England for my education when I was but twelve years of age. In 1774, I was sent to Geneva, to pursue my studies, where I resided until 1778. In November, that year, I went to Paris, where I resided upwards of two months in the character of an American gentleman. Immediately on my arrival there, I waited on Doctor Franklin, Mr. Adams, and Mr. A. Lee, the Commissioners from Congress to the court of France, as a citizen of America, and was received as such by them. In January, 1779, I left Paris for London, whither I went to procure the means of embarking for America, from the gentleman who had been appointed my guardian by my father when I was first sent to Europe in 1770, and from whom alone I had any hope of obtaining such means. But in this endeavor, I was disappointed, and remained some time in England, with the hope of receiving remittances from Charleston. Here again my expectation was defeated. The rapid depreciation of the continental money rendered the negotiation of money transactions extremely difficult, and thus I remained till the fall of Charleston. I took this opportunity of studying the law, but could not be called to the bar, because I had not taken the oath of allegiance to Great Britain, which is a necessary qualification. After the surrender of Charleston, the whole State of South Carolina fell into the hands of the enemy, and it was impossible at that time to return. No sooner, however, did I acquire the means, and an opportunity offered, than I prepared myself to go back to America. I quitted London for that purpose, in October or November, 1782, not in a vessel bound to Charleston, then a British garrison, and which I certainly should have done, had I considered myself a British subject, and which would have been most convenient, as there were vessels constantly going from London to Charleston; but I travelled to Ostend, and there embarked in a neutral vessel bound to St. Kitt's, from whence it was my intention to proceed to a Danish island, and thence to some American port in North Carolina or Georgia, from whence I could reach the American camp. In the beginning of January, 1783, I sailed from Ostend, but was detained a considerable time by contrary winds, and in the middle of the month of February, was shipwrecked on the coast of England, and was obliged to return to London in order to procure another passage. These circumstances unavoidably prevented my return to Charleston, until some time in November, 1783.

On my arrival at Charleston, I was received by my countrymen as a citizen of the State of South Carolina, and elected by their free suffrage a member of the Legislature in November, 1784. In the August following I was chosen, by the Governor and Council, a member of the Privy Council, and this election was confirmed by the Legislature the October following. In September, the same year, I was elected one of the Wardens of the City of Charleston. In November, 1786, I was again elected into the Legislature; again in November, 1788; I was elected at the same time that I was elected to the House of Representatives of the United States, the September preceding having been chosen again a Warden of the city.

After having stated these facts, he went on adverting to the laws referred to in the report of the committee, which, he said, he conceived to be applicable to the present case.

In September, 1779, a question was discussed in the Legislature of South Carolina, respecting the young men who were sent abroad for their education, and it was determined that it was most for the interest of the State, that they should be allowed to continue in Europe till they were twenty-two years of age; after which the law provided they should be doubly taxed if they did not return. This law might fairly be supposed to recognize the citizenship of all the young men in a similar predicament with himself. It allowed them all to be absent until they were twenty-two years of age; but even after that period it did not deprive them of the right of citizenship; it only subjected them to the penalty of a double tax. This he contended was a sort of compact with him, that if he chose to be absent after that time, he should suffer a certain penalty, which, in its own nature, implied that his citizenship remained; but before he attained that age, South Carolina was in such a situation that her best friends were compelled to be absent, and take refuge in distant countries. It was not till some time after that the friends of the American cause began to assemble in that State; the absentee law, therefore, never operated on him, and he never was doubly taxed.

In February, 1782, the Legislature met at Jacksonburg, and discriminated between friend and foe, between American and British subjects, by disposing of the estates of the latter, and banishing them; from an inspection of the law passed at that time, it would be evident in what light they viewed him. He had landed property in the State, but was himself in England; yet they did not attempt to confiscate his property, or subject him to an amercement. The absentee law was his safeguard, he had the permission of the State to be abroad.

If the Legislature in 1782 recognized as citizens some of those persons whose estates were confiscated for adhering to Great Britain, and for being disaffected to America a fortiori, did it not recognize as a citizen one whose estate was not forfeited, who had not been deemed worthy of punishment, and who had been absent under the sanction of the law?

By the constitution of South Carolina it appears, that no person was eligible to a seat in the Legislature until he had resided three years, nor to a seat in the Privy Council until he had resided five years in the State. He had a seat in both those bodies before he had resided two years in the State of South Carolina, and no objection was ever made on that score. He could not have been qualified for either, had not the people of South Carolina deemed his residence in that State, such a residence as gained him a qualification; or had they not supposed the qualification required in the constitution applied only to new comers and new citizens, for whom that residence was necessary to wean them from their local prejudices and national habits, and to attach them to the commonwealth. Had they not, in short, supposed him to have been a citizen during the revolution, and attached to his native State by every tie which could bind an individual to any country. Three years' residence was either not required of him, or his former residence was deemed within the meaning of the constitution.

An act to confer the right of citizenship on aliens was passed March 26, 1784. For the purpose of possessing the subordinate rights of citizenship, such as an exemption from the alien duty, a residence of one year, and taking the oath of allegiance, was sufficient. To confer a right of voting at elections, a person must have been admitted a citizen two years prior to his voting; but for the higher privileges of a citizen, being eligible to offices of trust, to a seat in the Legislature and Privy Council, the alien must have been naturalized by law. Now, in November, 1784, he was elected into the Legislature, and took his seat without objection in January, 1785, and was elected into the Privy Council, October, 1785; all without being naturalized by law.

In October, 1785, when he was elected to the Council, his election was opposed, but the objection now brought forward was not then made; and the memorialist himself, who was a member of the Legislature, voted in favor of the choice; though, unquestionably, unless he was considered by the Legislature as a citizen before he returned to Charleston, nothing had afterwards occurred to make him so, and the alien act of 1784 positively required a naturalization by act of Assembly to give him a qualification.

The constitution of South Carolina is silent as to citizenship, but allowed any person to vote at elections who had resided a year in the State, and paid a certain tax; to be a member of the Assembly he must have resided three, and to be a Privy Councillor five years previous to his election, but nothing was said about citizenship. The act of 1784, however, expressly defined who should and who should not be deemed citizens; and, consequently, all persons who did not become citizens must have been held to be aliens, and considered so, till they had conformed to the alien act of 1784. Now, as he was admitted to offices of trust, to which aliens were not admissible, and as he was admitted to them without having the rights of citizenship conferred upon him, in pursuance of that act, it followed clearly, that the people of South Carolina and the Legislature acknowledged him to be a citizen by virtue of the revolution.

He went on to observe, that, from the doctrine laid down by the memorialist, it was difficult to ascertain when he did become a citizen of South Carolina. When he was admitted to the bar in 1784, he did no act which made him a citizen, the bare act of taking an oath of qualification to an office could not convert an alien to a citizen. The constitution seemed to imply a mere residence of a year, by giving a right to vote, gave a right of citizenship; if that were the case, and if his residence prior to the revolution was considered such a residence as the constitution required, then he was a citizen, by virtue of the constitution, after having resided a year in Carolina. Now, it was clear, his residence prior to the war was deemed such a residence as the constitution required; because he was admitted to vote and admitted to a seat in the Legislature and Council by right of such residence, not having had the requisite residence since the war, and yet being deemed qualified. If, therefore, that part of the constitution which gave a right of voting, in consequence of a year's residence and paying a certain tax, virtually conferred citizenship, by giving a right to vote, (and it appeared absurd that a right to vote should be given to persons not citizens,) and if, also, his residence, prior to the revolution, was deemed a sufficient residence, then he was a citizen by virtue of the constitution.

The points that seemed most to be relied upon by the memorialist were:

1st. That residence was actually necessary to confer citizenship, or, in other words, that a person could not become a citizen of a country, till he has resided in it.

2d. That a person could not become a citizen till he was of age to choose his country.

In answer to the first, he denied that residence in the country was absolutely necessary. Was it to be supposed, he asked, that when a man sent his son into another country for his education and improvement, the son was thereby to lose any political benefits which might, during such temporary absence, accrue to his country? If his father had lived a few years longer, would there have arisen any question on this subject? Would he not, though absent, have acquired, according to the petitioner's own positions, a right of citizenship? And should his death, at such an early period, not be deemed a sufficient misfortune for him, without using that as a pretence for making him an alien? Those who represented him in Carolina as his guardians, who were in loco parentis, were residents in Carolina at the declaration of independence.

His property was in Carolina, his money in the treasury, assisting to carry on the war. The declaration of independence affected him as much, though at Geneva, as it did those in Carolina; his happiness, that of his dearest connections, his property, were deeply interested in it: his fate was so closely connected with that of Carolina, that any revolution in Carolina was a revolution to him. Though a minor, as soon as he heard of the independence of America, he considered himself an American citizen.

If a person could not become a citizen of a country without residing in it, what should be said of those gentlemen who had been in Europe during the war, and were now in high office in America? Several of them went to Europe before the war, were there at the declaration of independence, and did not return to America till after the war, or about the close of it. When did their citizenship commence? According to the petitioner, they could not become citizens of America until they returned to America, and took an oath of allegiance to the States; but Congress employed them in offices of great confidence, before they had returned to America, or taken such oath. Congress, therefore, considered them citizens, by virtue of the revolution.

It had been said, that Carolina had called on her young men to come to her assistance. This was not the true state of the case. Carolina thought that her young men who were abroad for their education, should not be taken from their studies till they were twenty-two years of age, and doubly taxed them after that. His guardian wrote to him that he had permission of the Legislature to be absent till he was twenty-two, and that he should be doubly taxed after that age.

It has been also said, that Carolina tendered an oath, to discover who were friends, and who were enemies. In March, 1778, the Legislature of South Carolina passed an act to oblige every free male inhabitant of that State, above sixteen years of age, to take an oath of allegiance to the State. As there were notoriously many persons then in the State who were inimical to its liberties, such a step was necessary to give a reasonable cause for obliging them to quit the country. With that view, the oath was generally tendered only to those who were suspected or known not to be friendly to the cause. He had been informed by several persons, who were zealous partisans, and then in Carolina, that they had never taken any oath of allegiance, and that it had not been required of them on this occasion.

The act directed, that those who did not take it, should quit the State; and, if they returned, should be dealt with as traitors, and suffer death. Let us examine whether this act can, in any respect, apply to the present question. 1st. It particularly mentioned "inhabitants of the State of South Carolina." It could not, therefore, apply to persons who were abroad. 2dly. It directed that the oath should be taken before a justice of peace in Carolina; this could not, therefore, extend to a person then at Geneva. 3dly. It was directed to be taken in one month after the passing of the act; and it was not possible that I should hear of the existence of such an act in less than three months. 4thly. It was directed, that if the persons refused to take it, they should quit the State; but I was already out of it. 5thly. Those who refused to take it, were prevented from acquiring or conveying property, and rendered incapable of exercising any profession. But on my return to Carolina, I took peaceable possession of my estate, part of which consisted of lands and houses, which had been mine since the year 1770; and I was immediately admitted to the exercise of the profession for which I was educated. 6thly. The act directed, that if any person returned to Carolina, after having refused to take the oath, he should be put to death as a traitor; and, yet, on my return, never having taken the oath, I was elected a member of the Legislature, and a Privy Councillor; and, instead of being deemed a criminal myself, I acted as Attorney General to punish others; and yet the petitioner, in one of his late publications, lays great stress on the applicability of this act.

2dly. There could be no doubt that a minor might be a citizen, from the very words of the constitution, which admitted a person to be a member of the House of Representatives at twenty-five, and yet required a citizenship of seven years. This was of itself a sufficient refutation of every thing contained in the petition on this head. The constitution acknowledged that a person might be a citizen at eighteen; if so, there was no reason why a person might not be one at sixteen or fourteen.

Mr. LEE said, the committee had now to determine, whether Mr. SMITH was a citizen of South Carolina during his absence from home, or not. If the laws of that State recognized him as such, the question was determined, because this House could not dispute a fact of that kind. From the reference that has been made to the constitution and laws of South Carolina, and the circumstances which took place under them, with respect to Mr. SMITH, it was convincing that he was acknowledged there to be a citizen in consequence of the revolution.

Mr. MADISON.--I think the merit of the question is now to be decided, whether the gentleman is eligible to a seat in this House or not; but it will depend on the decision of a previous question, whether he has been seven years a citizen of the United States or not.

From an attention to the facts which have been adduced, and from a consideration of the principles established by the revolution, the conclusion I have drawn is, that Mr. SMITH was, on the declaration of independence, a citizen of the United States; and unless it appears that he has forfeited his right, by some neglect or overt act, he had continued a citizen until the day of his election to a seat in this House. I take it to be a clear point, that we are to be guided, in our decision, by the laws and constitution of South Carolina, so far as they can guide us; and where the laws do not expressly guide us, we must be guided by principles of a general nature, so far as they are applicable to the present case.

It were to be wished, that we had some law adduced, more precisely defining the qualities of a citizen or an alien; particular laws of this kind have obtained in some of the States; if such a law existed in South Carolina, it might have prevented this question from ever coming before us; but since this has not been the case, let us settle some general principle before we proceed to the presumptive proof arising from public measures under the law, which tend to give support to the inference drawn from such principles.

It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general, place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will, therefore, be unnecessary to investigate any other. Mr. SMITH founds his claim upon his birthright; his ancestors were among the first settlers of that colony.

It is well known to many gentlemen on this floor, as well as to the public, that the petitioner is a man of talents, one who would not lightly hazard his reputation in support of visionary principles: yet I cannot but think he has erred in one of the principles upon which he grounds his charge. He supposes, when this country separated from Great Britain, the tie of allegiance subsisted between the inhabitants of America and the king of that nation, unless, by some adventitious circumstance, the allegiance was transferred to one of the United States. I think there is a distinction which will invalidate his doctrine in this particular, a distinction between that primary allegiance which we owe to that particular society of which we are members, and the secondary allegiance we owe to the sovereign established by that society. This distinction will be illustrated by the doctrine established by the laws of Great Britain, which were the laws of this country before the revolution. The sovereign cannot make a citizen by any act of his own; he can confer denizenship; but this does not make a man either a citizen or subject. In order to make a citizen or subject, it is established, that allegiance shall first be due to the whole nation; it is necessary that a national act should pass to admit an individual member. In order to become a member of the British Empire, where birth has not endowed the person with that privilege, he must be naturalized by an act of Parliament.

What was the situation of the people of America, when the dissolution of their allegiance took place by the declaration of independence? I conceive that every person who owed this primary allegiance to the particular community in which he was born, retained his right of birth, as a member of a new community; that he was consequently absolved from the secondary allegiance he had owed to the British sovereign. If he were not a minor, he became bound, by his own act, as a member of the society who separated with him from a submission to a foreign country. If he were a minor, his consent was involved in the decision of that society to which he belonged by the ties of nature. What was the allegiance, as a citizen of South Carolina, he owed to the King of Great Britain? He owed his allegiance to him as a king of that society to which, as a society, he owed his primary allegiance. When that society separated from Great Britain, he was bound by that act, and his allegiance transferred to that society, or the sovereign which that society should set up; because it was through his membership of the society of South Carolina that he owed allegiance to Great Britain.

This reasoning will hold good, unless it is supposed that the separation which took place between these States and Great Britain, not only dissolved the union between those countries, but dissolved the union among the citizens themselves: that the original compact, which made them altogether one society, being dissolved, they could not fall into pieces, each part making an independent society; but must individually revert into a state of nature; but I do not conceive that this was, of necessity, to be the case; I believe such a revolution did not absolutely take place. But in supposing that this was the case, lies the error of the memorialist. I conceive the colonies remained as a political society, detached from their former connection with another society, without dissolving into a state of nature; but capable of substituting a new form of government in the place of the old one, which they had, for special considerations, abolished. Suppose the State of South Carolina should think proper to revise her constitution, abolish that which now exists, and establish another form of government: surely this would not dissolve the social compact. It would not throw them back into a state of nature. It would not dissolve the union between the individual members of that society. It would leave them in perfect society, changing only the mode of action, which they are always at liberty to arrange. Mr. SMITH being then, at the declaration of independence, a minor, but being a member of that particular society, he became, in my opinion, bound by the decision of the society, with respect to the question of independence and change of Government; and if afterwards he had taken part with the enemies of his country, he would have been guilty of treason against that Government to which he owed allegiance, and would have been liable to be prosecuted as a traitor.

So far as we can judge by the laws of Carolina, and the practice and decision of that State, the principles I have adduced are supported; and I must own, that I feel myself at liberty to decide, that Mr. SMITH was a citizen at the declaration of independence, a citizen at the time of his election, and, consequently, entitled to a seat in this Legislature.

Mr. JACKSON.--I differ widely from the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) on the subject of allegiance and the social compact, and hold the principles advanced by him exceedingly dangerous to many of the States, and in particular to the one I have the honor to represent. The situation of America, at the time of the revolution, was not properly to be compared to a people altering their mode or form of government. Nor were there two allegiances due, one to the community here, another to that of Great Britain. We were all on a footing; and I contend the principle is right, in some degree, of a total reversion to a state of nature amongst individuals, and to a mere parental or patriarchal authority, where the heads had families dependent on them; the former, or individual pursued that line which appeared right in his own eyes, and the cause which he thought just; and, in the latter case, the children followed the will of the father, who chose for them, as the person who brought them into life, and whose fortunes they were to inherit. I conceive the whole allegiance or compact to have been dissolved. Many of the States were a considerable period without establishing constitutions or forms of government, and during that period we were in a little better state than that of nature; and then it was that every man made his election for an original compact, or tie, which, by his own act, or that of his father for him, he became bound to submit to. And what, sir, would otherwise be the result? And if the gentleman's doctrines of birth were to be supported, those minors, who, with British bayonets, have plundered and ravaged, nay, cruelly butchered their more virtuous neighbors--the sons of the most inveterate traitors, whose names deservedly sounded in every bill of confiscation; and the minors, sons of those who sheltered themselves under the shade of the British King, and supported his armies, if not with arms, with the resources of war, until the hour of danger was over--those, I say, after the blood of thousands has been spilt in the establishment of our government, can now come forward and sneer at the foolish patriots who endured every hardship of a seven years' war, to secure to them the freedom and property they had no hand in defending. Sir, did we fight for this? Was it for this the soldier watched his numerous nights, and braved the inclemency of the seasons? Will he submit, after having gained his point at the expense of property and the loss of constitution, to have those sentiments established? If he will, he has fought to little purpose indeed.

Sir, I again contend, that when the revolution came on we were all alike with respect to allegiances, and all under the same social tie. An Englishman born did not conceive himself more liable to be condemned for treason than an American, had the enemy succeeded; nor would there have been any distinction in the laws on coming to a trial. But, sir, how should this primary allegiance be known to belong to the less, or American community, where the majority did not prevail. In Georgia, the majority were opposed to American measures; agreeably to the gentleman's reasoning, the minors must have been all on the British side; and yet many of them, on arriving to years of discretion, behaved well and valiantly with us. To corroborate this, sir, I will remark, that, for a considerable period, we had no general or federal government, or form of constitution, and yet were in arms. I would ask what state we were in then? Neighbor was against neighbor, and brother against brother. But, sir, the gentleman says the hardened minor will not return. Sir, experience has proved the contrary. The Middle and Eastern States, except Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York, never had the enemy long with them; there was not the same trial of men, and they knew not the audacity of those villains. After having received their equivalent for, in many cases, feigned losses, from the British crown, they are daily returning and pushing into office. It is necessary we should guard against them. Britain, although humiliated, yet has a longing eye upon this country; she has yet posts in it. Although it is improbable that so many of these people will get into Congress as to form a corrupt majority, yet they have ambition and resentment enough to attempt it. At this moment, sir, in Georgia, are some of the most daring, bringing ejectments for estates which their fathers had deservedly forfeited, although themselves had imbrued their hands in the blood of their fellow-citizens.

Now, to the present case: Highly as I regard the gentleman (Mr. SMITH) as a valuable member, and esteem his abilities, I can only form my opinion on the leave given him by the State to be absent. If that principle is introduced into the resolution, I will vote in favor of Mr. SMITH'S eligibility; but if not, I must decline voting.

Which he accordingly did when the question was put.

Mr. TUCKER hoped that the yeas and nays would be taken on this question, not because he had any doubt in his own mind of Mr. SMITH'S right to a seat, but because he had been solicited by Dr. Ramsay to have the yeas and nays taken.

The yeas and nays were taken as follows:

YEAS.--Messrs. Baldwin, Benson, Boudinot, Cadwalader, Carroll, Clymer, Coles, Contee, Fitzsimons, Floyd, Gilman, Goodhue, Heister, Huntington, Lawrence, Lee, Leonard, Livermore, Madison, Moore, Muhlenberg, Page, Van Rensselaer, Seney, Schureman, Scott, Sinnickson, Smith, (of Maryland,) Sturgis, Sylvester, Thatcher, Trumbull, Tucker, Vining, White, and Wynkoop.

Jonathan Grout voted in the negative.

Adjourned until Monday.

THURSDAY, May 28.

Western Lands.

The House, on motion of Mr. SCOTT, went into a Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union, for the purpose of considering certain resolutions he had prepared respecting the disposal of the land in the Western Territory. Mr. TRUMBULL in the chair.

Mr. SCOTT presumed there was little need of argument to prove to the Committee the necessity of taking speedy measures with respect to the unsettled lands in the Western Territory. The dissolution of the Board of Treasury, and the death of the late Geographer of the United States, are adventitious circumstances, which tend to increase the necessity. Gentlemen are acquainted with the number of sales which have been made to some of the citizens of the United States; they consequently know that the United States are under an obligation to complete the surveys of those lands which they have made sale of. They know, also, that until this is done, they cannot receive a farthing of the millions of dollars due on those contracts; they will not only be unable to receive the principal, but will be paying interest for the same. Besides this, there are other considerations for putting the business on a new footing. The mode hitherto pursued of selling lands has been very expensive to the United States. Perhaps, on inquiry, we shall find, that the specie it has cost us in getting the land surveyed and sales completed, would have purchased as many certificates as we get for the sale of the land. The lands are also proposed to be sold in too great quantities. It is very difficult to form a company for the purchase of a million acres. It ought to be sold in small quantities, to make the sales more certain and numerous; and, consequently, increase the public income. On this principle, it will be well to open a land office, and grant the soil in such quantities as may suit the applications. By this means more may be expected for the purchase, than when it is struck off, at a wholesale price, by the million acres; and in this way the land office will be conducted without expense, which will be fixed on the purchaser, so that the whole money the lands may bring will come into the treasury without deduction.

There are other considerations why a land office should be opened for the sale of that territory in the way just mentioned. There are, at this moment, a great number of people on the ground, who are willing to acquire by purchase a right to the soil they are seated upon. Allured by its fertility, the agreeableness of the climate, and the prospect of future ease to themselves and families, they would not seek a change. Kentucky, already full, at least there are no more valuable lands to be got there with a clear title, can receive no more emigrants. They, therefore, turn their wishful eyes upon the lands of the Union. They hope to get them of Congress upon as good terms as they can procure them of the speculators. What will these men think, who have placed themselves on a vacant spot, anxiously waiting its disposition by the Government, to find their pre-emption right engrossed by the purchaser of a million of acres? Will they expose themselves to be preyed upon by these men? They might submit to this, but they have other offers.

There are seven thousand souls waiting for lands; they will have them here or elsewhere; but there is some danger, if they cannot be accommodated within the boundaries of the United States, they will do one of two things: either move into the Spanish territory, where they are not altogether uninvited, and become an accession of power to a foreign nation, forming to us a dangerous frontier; or they will take this course, move on the United States territory, and take possession without your leave. What then will be the case? They will not pay you money. Will you then raise a force to drive them off? That has been tried: troops were raised, and sent under General Harmer, to effect that purpose. They burnt the cabins, broke down the fences, and tore up the potato patches; but three hours after the troops were gone, these people returned again, repaired the damage, and are now settled upon the lands in open defiance of the authority of the Union. But, nevertheless, they are willing to pay an equitable price for those lands; and if they may be indulged with a pre-emption to the purchase, no men will be better friends to the Government. They went on the ground with an intention of purchasing, and are kept there by a hope that the Government will see their interest, and dispose of the land upon reasonable terms. But if you do not listen to their request, if you neglect or despise their offers, and they prove too weak to resist the omnipotent arm of Government, they will have recourse to a neighboring Power for protection. Hopes of that protection are now held out to them; it is my duty to inform you of the fact. They will be led to think their interest is separate from yours on the Atlantic shores. It will take prudent management to prevent the fatal effects of a commotion in that country. One of the most unhappy things we could do, would be to refuse selling those lands in less quantities than by the million of acres: it would certainly be a cause of disgust, if not of separation. If the object was to prevent the settlement of the country, it would be another thing; but that cannot be accomplished, it is not in the power of any force on earth to prevent the increase of the population now begun; it is therefore much better that we should incline them to friendship, than oblige them to become our enemies. The emigrants who reach the Western country will not stop until they find a place where they can securely seat themselves. Your lands first offer: their fertility and agreeableness will tempt them to pitch there; but to secure them, they must have a well-grounded hope that the lands they cultivate may become their own. To encourage this, you must open that territory to them, and let them have lands for pay. You must go further, you must open the land office in that country, because it will be impossible for the indigent persons to travel for an office-right. You can then establish a government among them, and derive advantages from them which are now totally lost. They wish for your government and laws, and will be gratified with the indulgence; but they wish also to acquire property under them; they wish for your lands, and what good reason can be offered to warrant a denial? If they cannot get your land, they must go further, and obtain it of foreigners, who are desirous of having them at any rate, who will give them lands without pay.

These observations are sufficient, no doubt, to evince the necessity of doing something with respect to the Western territory, and something different from what has hitherto been done. In order that the Committee may have a full view of my ideas, I will read the plan I have in my hand, upon which a law may be founded.

He here read a previous resolution, to be followed by the plan, which was to this effect:

Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that an act of Congress ought to pass for establishing and regulating a land-office, for the sale of the vacant and unappropriated land in the Western territory.

[Here, by way of separate resolutions, followed in detail the constituent parts of this office, and the routine in which the business should be conducted, directing the expense of the office to be supported by the fees payable before the warrants and patents were delivered.]

Mr. CLYMER did not believe the committee were prepared for a decision at this time. He considered the subject to be as intricate and difficult as it was interesting; and therefore hoped full time would be given for investigation. Many persons had purchased large quantities of lands of the late Congress, with a view to sell them out in small lots, to accommodate the people who are inclined to settle upon them. If Congress now open a land office for the sale of small quantities, it will no doubt overcast the prospect of advantage which induced the former, and may induce future purchasers to apply for large grants. These observations, and others which would readily occur to every gentleman, would satisfy the committee that they ought not to precipitate the business. For this reason, he moved the rising of the committee.

Mr. MADISON had no objection to the rising of the committee, as the means of obtaining information; but he thought the business deserving of the earliest attention. The clear and full manner in which the gentleman from Pennsylvania had opened the subject to the view of the committee, left no doubt on his mind of the propriety of taking some early measures to accomplish the business in the manner suggested by that gentleman. The facts and intelligence mentioned were too important to be passed lightly over. He should, for the present, agree to rise, but hoped the subject would be resumed in the House.

The question was taken on the first resolution moved by Mr. SCOTT, and passed in the affirmative; the others remaining on the table.

The committee then rose and reported progress.

FRIDAY, June 5.

Admission of Rhode Island into the Union.

Mr. BENSON presented for consideration, the resolution which he yesterday gave notice of his intention of introducing in relation to the admission of Rhode Island into the Union, and moved that the House immediately go into a Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, for the purpose of discussing his proposition.

The resolution is in the following words:

The Congress of the United States do resolve and declare it to be their most earnest desire, that the Legislature of the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, do recommend to the people of that State to choose delegates to meet in convention and to whom the constitution of the United States is to be submitted, conformably to the unanimous resolution of the United States in Congress assembled, of the 28th of September, 1787.

Mr. PAGE.--I think of Rhode Island as the worthy gentleman from New York does; but, as a member of Congress, I doubt the propriety of this body interfering in the business. If I put myself, for a moment, into the situation of a citizen of a State that has refused to accede to the constitution of the United States, I must admit that I should watch your actions with a jealous eye; I should be apprehensive of undue influence, if I were to see you throw your weight into the scale. But what occasion is there for adopting such a resolution? Are gentlemen afraid to leave them to their own unbiased judgment? For my part I am not: it will demonstrate the goodness of the constitution, if it be adopted upon mature consideration, without any aid but its own intrinsic value. As to amendments, when we come to consider of them, I dare say they will be such as to make the constitution more agreeable; but, for the present, I think it improper to have any thing to do with the gentleman's motion; I hope he may be prevailed upon to withdraw it; he has done his duty by bringing it forward; but if it does not meet the approbation of the House, it will be a useless waste of time to give it any further discussion. The gentleman has shown sufficiently his attachment to the Federal Government, by the earnestness he shows to have it adopted throughout the United States. But, in addition to this, let him consider where such measures may lead us. Because the Legislature of Rhode Island have neglected or refused to submit the consideration of the constitution to a convention, we are to recommend it, and express a most earnest desire that they will comply. But suppose they decline doing what you require, what is next to be done? I hope gentlemen will hesitate before they go any further. I think we should be employed more in the line of our duty, by attending to the interests of our constituents, and completing the organization of a Government they ordered, than to spend our time about business which is not within our powers. Why should we interfere with the concerns of our sister States who have not yet joined the new Government? I trust the gentleman will see the impropriety of his motion, and agree to withdraw it.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)--I think we ought to go into committee, and hear what the gentleman has to say on the subject. Though I must acknowledge I am at present against the adoption of the resolution he has proposed; yet it is possible, when he has stated his reasons, and pointed out the necessity of it, that I may alter my opinion; but I wonder why the gentleman has omitted North Carolina.

Mr. SHERMAN.--I think Rhode Island stands in a different situation from North Carolina. When this constitution was formed in the convention, North Carolina was represented there; she, as well as the adopting States, submitted that instrument to a convention of the people; but not having adopted it, she has again called a convention, and is proceeding to reconsider it as fast as convenient; so that such a request as is now proposed would be unnecessary with respect to them. As Rhode Island did not send members to the first convention, there was a delicacy in transmitting the proceedings to them, and Congress could not, perhaps, apply to them with the same propriety as to another. But all we are now to consider, I believe, is, that we invite the State of Rhode Island to join our confederacy; what will be the effect of such a measure we cannot tell till we try it.

Mr. MADISON.--I believe, Mr. Speaker, there are cases in which it is prudent to avoid coming to a decision at all, and cases where it is desirable to evade debate; if there were not cases of this kind, it would be unnecessary to guard our discussions with the previous question.[28] My idea on the subject now before the House is, that it would be improper in this body to expose themselves to have such a proposition rejected by the Legislature of the State of Rhode Island. It would likewise be improper to express a desire on an occasion where a free agency ought to be employed, which would carry with it all the force of a command. How far this is contemplated on the present occasion, I cannot tell; but I heartily wish that as little may be said about it as possible. I conceive this to be one of the cases to which the previous question is applicable; and, if the gentleman means to call the House to a direct decision on this motion, I shall step between, and interpose the previous question.

Mr. AMES.--I am against the previous question being taken, because I wish the House to consider the motion made by the gentleman from New York; it is admitted to be a question of considerable importance; if it is, it ought to be considered; otherwise, we are shutting the door on information, and putting it out of our power to ascertain the propriety or impropriety of the motion.

I should be glad to know if any gentleman contemplates the State of Rhode Island dissevered from the Union; a maritime State, situated in the most convenient manner for the purpose of smuggling, and defrauding our revenue. Surely, a moment's reflection will induce the House to take measures to secure this object. Do gentlemen imagine that State will join the Union? If they do, what is the injury arising from the adoption of the resolution intended to be submitted to the committee? Is there any impropriety in desiring them to consider a question which they have not yet decided? It has been suggested by an honorable gentleman, that this desire will operate as a demand. If a wish of Congress can bring them into the Union, why should we decline to express such a wish?

The previous question being insisted upon, was put--"Shall the main question be now put?" and it was determined in the negative. Adjourned.

MONDAY, June 8.

MICHAEL JENIFER STONE, from Maryland, appeared, and took his seat.

TUESDAY, June 16.

Department of Foreign Affairs.

The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for establishing an executive department, to be denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs. Mr. TRUMBULL in the chair.

The first clause, after recapitulating the title of the officer and his duties, had these words: "To be removable from office by the President of the United States."

Mr. WHITE.--The constitution gives the President the power of nominating, and, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, appointing to office. As I conceive the power of appointing and dismissing to be united in their natures, and a principle that never was called in question in any Government, I am averse to that part of the clause which subjects the Secretary of Foreign Affairs to be removed at the will of the President. In the constitution, special provision is made for the removal of the judges; that I acknowledge to be a deviation from my principle; but as it is a constitutional provision, it is to be admitted. In all cases not otherwise provided for in the constitution, I take it, that the principle I have laid down is the governing one. Now the constitution has associated the Senate with the President in appointing the heads of departments. The Secretary of Foreign Affairs is the head of a department; for the words of the law declare, that there shall be a department established, at the head of which shall be an officer to be so denominated. If, then, the Senate are associated with the President in the appointment, they ought also to be associated in the dismission from office. Upon the justness of this construction, I take the liberty of reviving the motion made in the Committee of the Whole, for striking out these words: "to be removable from office by the President of the United States."

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)--The gentleman has anticipated me in his motion; I am clearly in sentiment with him that the words ought to go out. It is in the recollection of the committee, that when the subject was last before us, this power was excepted to; and although the words were then allowed to stand, it was generally understood that it should be further debated. I then was opposed to giving this power to the President, and am still of opinion that we ought not to make this declaration, even if he has the power by the constitution.

I would premise that one of these two ideas is just: either that the constitution has given the President the power of removal, and therefore it is nugatory to make the declaration here; or it has not given the power to him, and therefore it is improper to make an attempt to confer it upon him. If it is not given to him by the constitution, but belongs conjointly to the President and Senate, we have no right to deprive the Senate of their constitutional prerogative; and it has been the opinion of sensible men that the power was lodged in this manner. A publication of no inconsiderable eminence in the class of political writings on the constitution, has advanced this sentiment. The author, or authors, (for I have understood it to be the production of two gentlemen of great information,) of the work published under the signature of Publius, has these words:

"It has been mentioned as one of the advantages to be expected from the co-operation of the Senate in the business of appointments, that it would contribute to the stability of the administration. The consent of that body would be necessary to displace as well as appoint. A change of the Chief Magistrate, therefore, would not occasion so violent or so general a revolution in the officers of the Government, as might be expected if he were the sole disposer of offices. Where a man in any station has given satisfactory evidence of his fitness for it, a new President would be restrained from attempting a change in favor of a person more agreeable to him, by the apprehension that the discountenance of the Senate might frustrate the attempt, and bring some degree of discredit upon himself. Those who can best estimate the value of a steady administration, will be most disposed to prize a provision which connects the official existence of public men with the approbation or disapprobation of that body, which, from the greater permanency of its own composition, will, in all probability, be less subject to inconstancy than any other member of the Government."

Here this author lays it down, that there can be no doubt of the power of the Senate in the business of removal. Let this be as it may, I am clear that the President alone has not the power. Examine the constitution; the powers of the several branches of Government are there defined; the President has particular powers assigned him; the Judiciary have in like manner powers assigned them; but you will find no such power as removing from office given to the President. I call upon gentlemen to show me where it is said that the President shall remove from office. I know they cannot do it. Now, I infer from this, that, as the constitution has not given the President the power of removability, it meant that he should not have that power; and this inference is supported by that clause in the constitution which provides that all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and on conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. Here is a particular mode described for removing; and if there is no other mode directed, I contend that the constitution contemplated only this mode.

I imagine, sir, we are declaring a power in the President which may hereafter be greatly abused; for we are not always to expect a Chief Magistrate in whom such entire confidence can be placed as in the present. Perhaps gentlemen are so much dazzled with the splendor of the virtues of the present President, as not to be able to see into futurity. The framers of the constitution did not confine their views to the first person who was looked up to to fill the Presidential chair. If they had, they might have omitted those checks and guards with which the powers of the Executive are surrounded. They knew, from the course of human events, that they could not expect to be so highly favored of heaven as to have the blessing of his administration more than seven or fourteen years; after which, they supposed a man might get into power, who, it was possible, might misbehave. We ought to follow their example, and contemplate this power in the hands of an ambitious man, who might apply it to dangerous purposes. If we give this power to the President, he may, from caprice, remove the most worthy men from office. His will and pleasure will be the slight tenure by which an office is to be held, and of consequence you render the officer the mere state-dependant, the abject slave of a person who may be disposed to abuse the confidence his fellow-citizens have placed in him.

Mr. HUNTINGTON.--I think the clause ought not to stand. It was well observed that the constitution was silent respecting the removal, otherwise than by impeachment. I would likewise add, that it mentions no other cause of removal than treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. It does not, I apprehend, extend to cases of infirmity or incapacity. Indeed, it appears hard to me, that after an officer has become old in an honorable service, he should be impeached for this infirmity. The constitution, I think, must be the only rule to guide us on this occasion; as it is silent with respect to the removal, Congress ought to say nothing about it, because it implies that we have a right to bestow it, and I believe this power is not to be found among the enumerated powers delegated by the constitution to Congress.

Mr. SEDGWICK.--I wish the words to be struck out, because I conceive them to be unnecessary in this place. I do conceive, Mr. Speaker, that this officer will be the mere creature of the law; and that very little need be said to prove to you that of necessity this ought to be the case. I apprehend, likewise, that it requires but a small share of abilities to point out certain causes for which a person ought to be removed from office, without being guilty of treason, bribery, or malfeasance; and the nature of things demands that it should be so. Suppose, sir, a man becomes insane by the visitation of God, and is likely to ruin our affairs, are the hands of Government to be confined from warding off the evil? Suppose a person in office, not possessing the talents he was judged to have at the time of the appointment, is the error not to be corrected? Suppose he acquires vicious habits, an incurable indolence, or total neglect of the duties of his office, which forebode mischief to the public welfare, is there no way to arrest the threatened danger? Suppose he becomes odious and unpopular by reason of the measures which he pursues, (and this he may do without committing any positive offence against the law,) must he preserve his office in despite of the public will? Suppose him grasping at his own aggrandizement, and the elevation of his connections, by every means short of the treason defined by the constitution, hurrying your affairs to the precipice of destruction, endangering your domestic tranquillity, plundering you of the means of defence, by alienating the affections of your allies, and promoting the spirit of discord; is there no way suddenly to seize the worthless wretch, and hurl him from the pinnacle of power? Must the tardy, tedious, desultory road, by way of impeachment, be travelled to overtake the man who, barely confining himself within the letter of the law, is employed in drawing off the vital principle of the Government? Sir, the nature of things, the great objects of society, the express objects of this constitution, require that this thing should be otherwise. Well, sir, this is admitted by gentlemen; but they say the Senate is to be united with the President in the exercise of this power. I hope, sir, that is not the case; because it would involve us in the most serious difficulty. Suppose a discovery of any of those events which I have just enumerated were to take place when the Senate is not in session, how is the remedy to be applied? This is a serious consideration, and the evil could be avoided no other way than by the Senate's sitting always. Surely no gentleman of this House contemplates the necessity of incurring such an expense. I am sure it will be very objectionable to our constituents; and yet this must be done, or the public interest be endangered by keeping an unworthy officer in place until that body shall be assembled from the extremes of the Union. It has been said that there is a danger of this power being abused if exercised by one man. Certainly the danger is as great with respect to the Senate, who are assembled from various parts of the continent, with different impressions and opinions. It appears to me that such a body is more likely to misuse this power than the man whom the united voice of America calls to the Presidential chair. As the nature of the Government requires the power of removal, I think it is to be exercised in this way by a hand capable of exerting itself with effect, and, the power must be conferred upon the President by the constitution, as the executive officer of the Government.

Mr. MADISON.--If the construction of the constitution is to be left to its natural course with respect to the executive powers of this Government, I own that the insertion of this sentiment in law may not be of material importance, though, if it is nothing more than a mere declaration of a clear grant made by the constitution, it can do no harm; but if it relates to a doubtful part of the constitution, I suppose an exposition of the constitution may come with as much propriety from the Legislature, as any other department of the Government. If the power naturally belongs to the Government, and the constitution is undecided as to the body which is to exercise it, it is likely that it is submitted to the discretion of the Legislature, and the question will depend upon its own merits.

I am clearly of opinion with the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. SMITH,) that we ought in this, and every other case, to adhere to the constitution, so far as it will serve as a guide to us, and that we ought not to be swayed in our decisions by the splendor of the character of the present Chief Magistrate, but to consider it with respect to the merit of men who, in the ordinary course of things, may be supposed to fill the chair. I believe the power here declared is a high one, and, in some respects, a dangerous one; but, in order to come to a right decision on this point, we must consider both sides of the question: the possible abuses which may spring from the single will of the First Magistrate, and the abuse which may spring from the combined will of the Executive and the Senatorial disqualification.

When we consider that the First Magistrate is to be appointed at present by the suffrages of three millions of people, and in all human probability in a few years' time by double that number, it is not to be presumed that a vicious or bad character will be selected. If the Government of any country on the face of the earth was ever effectually guarded against the election of ambitious or designing characters to the first office of the State, I think it may with truth be said to be the case under the constitution of the United States. With all the infirmities incident to a popular election, corrected by the particular mode of conducting it, as directed under the present system, I think we may fairly calculate that the instances will be very rare in which an unworthy man will receive that mark of the public confidence which is required to designate the President of the United States. Where the people are disposed to give so great an elevation to one of their fellow-citizens, I own that I am not afraid to place my confidence in him, especially when I know he is impeachable for any crime or misdemeanor before the Senate, at all times; and that, at all events, he is impeachable before the community at large every four years, and liable to be displaced if his conduct shall have given umbrage during the time he has been in office. Under these circumstances, although the trust is a high one, and in some degree, perhaps, a dangerous one, I am not sure but it will be safer here than placed where some gentlemen suppose it ought to be.

Mr. VINING.--I hoped, Mr. Chairman, after the discussion this subject had received on a former occasion, that it would have been unnecessary to re-examine it. The arguments against the clause are reiterated: but, I trust, without a chance of success. They were fully answered before; and I expect the impressions made at that time are not already effaced. The House, as well as the Committee of the Whole, have determined that those words shall be inserted in the bill; the special committee could therefore do no less than place them where they are; a deference is due to the decision of the House.

The House has determined to make a declaration of their construction of the constitution. I am perfectly in sentiment with the majority on this occasion; and contend, that if this power is not in the President, it is not vested in any body whatever. It cannot be within the legislative power of the Senate, because it is of an adverse nature; it cannot be within the executive power of the Senate, because they possess none but what is expressly granted by the constitution. If gentlemen will point out where the constitution confers this power upon the Senate, I will read my recantation, and subscribe to the justness of their doctrine.

I am not satisfied that removability shall be acquired only by impeachment. Were the advocates of this doctrine aware of its consequences, when they advanced it? The Senate has the sole power of trying impeachments; the President is here out of the question. If no officer can be constitutionally removed but by impeachment, it applies to subordinate officers as well as heads of departments. For the constitution only gives power to Congress to establish officers by law, and vests the appointment in the President. If these officers are not removable but by impeachment, what is to become of our affairs, when any of the accidents occur which were enumerated by the gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. SEDGWICK)? Are we to take the circuitous route of impeachment? The dilatory and inefficient process by that mode, will not apply the remedy to the evil till it is too late to be of advantage. Experience has fixed an eternal stigma upon the system of impeachment; witness the case I mentioned, the other day, of Warren Hastings before the British Lords; what delays and uncertainty with the forms of trial, details of evidence, arguments of counsel, and deliberate decision! I ask gentlemen, can there be a greater evil than this in any Government? Why, then, will gentlemen advocate a doctrine so obnoxious to the principles of the constitution, when a more favorable construction is at hand?

Mr. WHITE.--Mention has been made of impeachments, as the only mode of removing an officer. I will explain my ideas on this point, in order that the committee may be masters of my particular objections to the clause. I consider impeachments necessary to be employed in cases respecting an officer who is appointed during good behavior. Thus the judges can only be removed by impeachment. The President and Vice President hold their offices for the terms mentioned in the constitution, not liable to be removed from office in any other way. These circumstances are a deviation from my general principle; but have nevertheless a proper ground to be supported on. The electors who appoint the President, cannot assemble to exercise the authority which would naturally be in them. With respect to the judges, it is found necessary for the proper and uncorrupt administration of justice, and the security of freedom, to have them independent in their stations, so that they be not removable at pleasure. To them, therefore, the doctrine of impeachment is peculiarly applicable. It may properly be extended further, in cases where the President is desirous of retaining an officer who ought not to be retained. This House has the power of controlling him, and may impeach the officer before the Senate. In either of these three cases impeachments are necessary.

Mr. BOUDINOT.--This is a question, Mr. Speaker, that requires full consideration, and ought only to be settled on the most candid discussion. It certainly involves the right of the Senate to a very important power. At present, I am so impressed with the importance of the subject, that I dare not absolutely decide on any principle, although I am firmly persuaded we ought to retain the clause in the bill; and, so far as it has been examined, I agree that it is a legislative construction of the constitution, necessary to be settled for the direction of your officers. But if it is a deviation from the constitution, or in the least degree an infringement upon the authority of the other branch of the Legislature, I shall most decidedly be against it. But I think it will appear, on a full consideration of this business, that we can do no otherwise than agree to this construction, in order to preserve to each department the full exercise of its powers, and to give this House security for the proper conduct of the officers who are to execute the laws.

Mr. SMITH, (of South Carolina.)--I have attended to the arguments of the gentlemen who oppose the motion for striking out, and I apprehend that their reasoning is not perfectly consistent. The construction of some gentlemen is, that the power of removal is given to the President by the constitution. Others are of opinion that the constitution is silent; and therefore the House ought to give it. To oppose these adverse arguments, I must return to my strong ground on which my opponents dare not venture. I state again, that if the constitution has given the power, it is unnecessary to give it here; or if it has not given it, we have no right to confer it, because it is not within the enumerated powers delegated to Congress.

Gentlemen have said that it is proper to give a legislative construction of the constitution. I differ with them on this point. I think it an infringement of the powers of the Judiciary. It is said, we ought not to blend the legislative, executive, or judiciary powers, further than is done by the constitution; and yet the advocates for preserving each department pure and untouched by the others, call upon this House to exercise the powers of the judges in expounding the constitution. What authority has this House to explain the law? But if it has this privilege, the Senate is also invested with it as part of the Legislature; and, in exercising it on the present question, we shall be likely to differ. If the constitution is silent, and gentlemen admit this, it is possible the Senate may view it with a favorable eye to their own right, and reject the bill on account of this clause. A great deal of mischief has arisen in the several States, by the Legislatures undertaking to decide constitutional questions. Sir, it is the duty of the Legislature to make laws; your judges are to expound them.

Mr. GERRY.--Some gentlemen consider this as a question of policy; but to me it appears a question of constitutionality, and I presume it will be determined on that point alone. The best arguments I have heard urged on this occasion came from the honorable gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. MADISON.) He says the constitution has vested the executive power in the President; and that he has a right to exercise it under the qualifications therein made. He lays it down as a maxim, that the constitution vesting in the President the executive power, naturally vests him with the power of appointment and removal. Now I would be glad to know from that gentleman by what means we are to decide this question. Is his maxim supported by precedent drawn from the practice of the individual States? The direct contrary is established. In many cases the Executives are not in particular vested with the power of appointment; and do they exercise that power by virtue of their office? It will be found that other branches of the Government make appointments. How then can gentlemen assert that the powers of appointment and removal are incident to the Executive Department of Government? To me it appears at best but problematical. Neither is it clear to me that the power that appoints naturally possesses the power of removal. As we have no certainty on either of these points, I think we must consider it as established by the constitution.

It appears very clear to me, that however this power may be distributed by the constitution, the House of Representatives have nothing to do with it. Why then should we interfere in the business? Are we afraid that the President and Senate are not sufficiently informed to know their respective duties? Our interposition argues that they want judgment, and are not able to adjust their powers without the wisdom of this House to assist them; to say the least on this point, it must be deemed indelicate for us to intermeddle with them. If the fact is, as we seem to suspect, that they do not understand the constitution, let it go before the proper tribunal; the judges are the constitutional umpires on such questions. Why, let me ask gentlemen, shall we commit an infraction of the constitution for fear the Senate or President should not comply with its directions?

Mr. AMES.--When this question was agitated at a former period, I took no part in the debate. I believe it was then proposed, without any idea or intention of drawing on a lengthy discussion, and to me it appeared to be well understood and settled by the House; but since it has been reiterated and contested again, I feel it my bounden duty to deliver the reasons for voting in the manner I then did, and shall now do. Mr. Chairman, I look upon every question which touches the constitution as serious and important, and therefore worthy of the fullest discussion, and the most solemn decision. I believe, on the present occasion, we may come to something near certainty, by attending to the leading principles of the constitution. In order that the good purposes of a Federal Government should be answered, it was necessary to delegate considerable powers; and the principle upon which the grant was made, intended to give sufficient power to do all possible good, but to restrain the rulers from doing mischief.

The constitution places all executive power in the hands of the President, and could he personally execute all the laws, there would be no occasion for establishing auxiliaries; but the circumscribed powers of human nature in one man, demand the aid of others. When the objects are widely stretched out, or greatly diversified, meandering through such an extent of territory as that the United States possess, a minister cannot see with his own eyes every transaction, or feel with his hands the minutiæ that pass through his department. He must therefore have assistants. But in order that he may be responsible to his country, he must have a choice in selecting his assistants, a control over them, with power to remove them when he finds the qualifications which induced their appointment cease to exist. There are officers under the constitution who hold their office by a different tenure--your judges are appointed during good behavior; and from the delicacy and peculiar nature of their trust, it is right it should be so, in order that they may be independent and impartial in administering justice between the Government and its citizens. But the removability of the one class, or immovability of the other, is founded on the same principle, the security of the people against the abuse of power. Does any gentleman imagine that an officer is entitled to his office as to an estate? Or does the Legislature establish them for the convenience of an individual? For my part I conceive it intended to carry into effect the purposes for which the constitution was intended.

The executive powers are delegated to the President, with a view to have a responsible officer to superintend, control, inspect, and check the officers necessarily employed in administering the laws. The only bond between him and those he employs, is the confidence he has in their integrity and talents; when that confidence ceases, the principal ought to have power to remove those whom he can no longer trust with safety. If an officer shall be guilty of neglect or infidelity, there can be no doubt but he ought to be removed; yet there may be numerous causes for removal which do not amount to a crime. He may propose to do a mischief; but I believe the mere intention would not be cause of impeachment. He may lose the confidence of the people upon suspicion, in which case it would be improper to retain him in service; he ought to be removed at any time, when, instead of doing the greatest possible good, he is likely to do an injury to the public interest by being continued in the administration.

I presume gentlemen will generally admit that officers ought to be removed when they become obnoxious; but the question is, how shall this power be exercised? It will not, I apprehend, be contended, that all officers hold their offices during good behavior. If this be the case, it is a most singular Government. I believe there is not another in the universe that bears the least semblance to it in this particular; such a principle, I take it, is contrary to the nature of things. But the manner how to remove is the question. If the officer misbehaves, he can be removed by impeachment; but in this case is impeachment the only mode of removal? It would be found very inconvenient to have a man continued in office after being impeached, and when all confidence in him was suspended or lost. Would not the end of impeachment be defeated by this means? If Mr. Hastings, who was mentioned by the gentleman from Delaware (Mr. VINING) preserved his command in India, could he not defeat the impeachment now pending in Great Britain? If that doctrine obtains in America, we shall find impeachments come too late; while we are preparing the process, the mischief will be perpetrated, and the offender will escape. I apprehend it will be as frequently necessary to prevent crimes as to punish them; and it may often happen that the only prevention is by removal. The superintending power possessed by the President, will perhaps enable him to discover a base intention before it is ripe for execution. It may happen that the Treasurer may be disposed to betray the public chest to the enemy, and so injure the Government beyond the possibility of reparation; should the President be restrained from removing so dangerous an officer, until the slow formality of an impeachment was complied with, when the nature of the case rendered the application of a sudden and decisive remedy indispensable?

But it will, I say, be admitted, that an officer may be removed. The question then is, by whom? Some gentlemen say by the President alone; and others, by the President, by and with the advice of the Senate. By the advocates of the latter mode, it is alleged, that the constitution is in the way of the power of removal being by the President alone. If this is absolutely the case, there is an end to all further inquiry. But before we suffer this to be considered as an insuperable impediment, we ought to be clear that the constitution prohibits him the exercise of what, on a first view, appears to be a power incident to the executive branch of the Government. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) has made so many observations to evince the constitutionality of the clause, that it is unnecessary to go over the ground again. I shall therefore confine myself to answer only some remarks made by the gentleman from South Carolina, (Mr. SMITH.) The powers of the President are defined in the constitution; but it is said, that he is not expressly authorized to remove from office. If the constitution is silent also with respect to the Senate, the argument may be retorted. If this silence proves that the power cannot be exercised by the President, it certainly proves that it cannot be exercised by the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. The power of removal is incident to Government; but not being distributed by the constitution, it will come before the Legislature, and, like every other omitted case, must be supplied by law.

Mr. LIVERMORE.--I am for striking out this clause, Mr. Chairman, upon the principles of the constitution, from which we are not at liberty to deviate. The honorable gentleman from Massachusetts, (Mr. SEDGWICK,) calls the Minister of Foreign Affairs the creature of the law, and that very properly; because the law establishes the office, and has the power of creating him in what shape the Legislature pleases. This being the case, we have a right to create the office under such limitations and restrictions as we think proper, provided we can obtain the consent of the Senate; but it is very improper to draw as a conclusion, from having the power of giving birth to a creature, that we should therefore bring forth a monster, merely to show we had such power. I call that creature a monster that has not the proper limbs and features of its species. I think the creature we are forming is unnatural in its proportions. It has been often said, that the constitution declares the President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint this officer. This, to be sure, is very true, and so is the conclusion which an honorable gentleman (Mr. WHITE) from Virginia drew from it, that an officer must be discharged in the way he was appointed.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, this question depends upon a just construction of a short clause in the constitution. "The President shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States." Here is no difference with respect to the power of the President to make treaties and appoint officers, only it requires in the one case a larger majority to concur than in the other. I will not by any means suppose that gentlemen mean, when they argue in favor of removal by the President alone, to contemplate the extension of the power to the repeal of treaties; because, if they do, there will be little occasion for us to sit here. But let me ask these gentlemen, as there is no real or imaginary distinction between the appointment of ambassadors and ministers, or Secretaries of Foreign Affairs, whether they mean that the President should have the power of recalling or discarding ambassadors and military officers, for the words in the constitution are "all other officers," as well as he can remove your Secretary of Foreign Affairs. To be sure, they cannot extend it to the judges; because they are secured under a subsequent article, which declares they shall hold their offices during good behavior; they have an inheritance which they cannot be divested of, but on conviction of some crime. But I presume gentlemen mean to apply it to all those who have not an inheritance in their offices. In this case, it takes the whole power of the President and Senate to create an officer, but half the power can uncreate him. Surely a law passed by the whole Legislature cannot be repealed by one branch of it; so I conceive, in the case of appointments, it requires the same force to supersede an officer as to put him in office.

Spotted a typo or a problem in this chapter? Tell us