Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) (part 6 of 6)

Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) (part 6 of 6)

Mr. WALTHERS. You could tell it from the way it was tied and the impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind--you couldn't tell, but you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found some little metal file cabinets--I don't know what kind you would call them--they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how many of them would you think there were?

Mr. WALTHERS. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all in the trunk of my car and we also found a box of pictures, a bunch of pictures that we taken. We didn't go to the trouble of looking at any of this stuff much--just more or less confiscated it at the time, and we looked at it there--just like that, and then we took all this stuff and put it in the car and then Mrs. Paine got a phone number from Mrs. Oswald where you could call Lee Harvey Oswald in Oak Cliff. It was a Whitehall phone number, I believe, and they said they didn't know where he lived, but this was where they called him, and I called Sheriff Decker on the phone when I was there and gave him that number for the criss-cross, so they could send some men to that house, which I think they did, but I didn't go myself. Then we put everybody in the car, the kids, Mrs. Oswald, and everyone--no; just a minute--before that, though, this Michael Paine or Mitchell Paine, whichever you call it, came home and I had understood from Mrs. Paine already that they weren't living together, that they were separated and he was supposed to be living in Grand Prairie and when he showed up I asked him what was his object in coming home. He said--well, after he had heard about the President's getting shot, he just decided he would take off and come home, and he arrived there while we were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was already after the time Oswald had been arrested, of course?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you had actually helped arrest Oswald at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what time was it approximately, would you be able to give us that?

Mr. WALTHERS. Oh, man--I couldn't tell you; I'm sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was arrested about what time--it must have been around close to 2 o'clock or 1:30?

Mr. WALTHERS. It was between 1:30 and 2 o'clock. This wasn't his getting off time, I remember him saying he had taken off and he had worked at Bell Helicopter.

Mr. LIEBELER. It's perfectly possible, however, that he could have heard about Oswald having been arrested in connection with the Officer Tippit shooting?

Mr. WALTHERS. But he didn't say anything about that when he came in.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. WALTHERS. I didn't ask him, of course, if he knew he had been arrested. I asked him if he knew Oswald and he said, "Yes"; he had known him. We were standing, I remember, on each side of the ironing board when I talked to him and he said "Yes," he had known him and I said, "How does the guy think, what is he, what does he do?" He said, "He's a Communist. He is very communistic minded. He believes in it." And he says, "He used to try to convince me it was a good thing," and he says, "I don't believe in it." And our conversation didn't go too far. It was just a matter of talk about Oswald and what he had to say about him being a Communist.

They were all put in the cars and we took them to Capt. Will Fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and I turned them over to Captain Fritz and left them and went back to my station.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets?

Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have been advised that some story has developed that at some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets full of cards that had the names on them of pro-Castro sympathizers or something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them?

Mr. WALTHERS. Well, that could have been one, but I didn't see it.

Mr. LIEBELER. There certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the stuff you got out there or anything like that?

Mr. WALTHERS. I picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of them contained, I don't know myself to this day.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I was sitting here listening to your story, I could see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel.

Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, but things get all twisted around.

Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a story, some sort of story that you were supposed to have found a spent bullet.

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; that's what the story was in this book, and man, I've never made a statement about finding a spent bullet.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never found any spent bullet?

Mr. WALTHERS. No; me and Allan Sweatt 2 or 3 days after the assassination did go back down there and make a pretty diligent search in there all up where that bullet might have hit, thinking that maybe the bullet hit the cement and laid down on some of them beams but we looked all up there and everywhere and I never did find one. I never did in all of my life tell anybody I found a bullet other than where it hit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Also, actually, if you were standing down here in front of this building on Main Street at the time the shots were fired, I suppose you could have seen down there to this railroad track trestle that goes over the underpass, did you have occasion to look down there at any time?

Mr. WALTHERS. No; it never even entered my mind, and knowing how this thing is arranged and I have chased a couple of escapees across the thing before, and knowing what was over there, the thought that anyone was shooting from back in here--I've heard some people say he was behind the fence, and I'm telling you, it just can't be, because it's a wide open river bottom area as far as you can go.

Mr. LIEBELER. It's a river bottom?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the thought that anyone would be shooting off of there would almost be an impossible thing--there's no place for him to go--there's nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you certainly never saw anybody firing from the tops of those railroad tracks, I mean, you never told anybody you saw someone firing from up there?

Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir; not at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never told anybody that one of the shots had come from the top of those railroad tracks either; is that right?

Mr. WALTHERS. Never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that what you saw there on the curb was a ricochet mark or could you clearly identify that in your own mind?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; it was a fresh ricochet mark. I have seen them and I noticed it for the next 2 or 3 days as it got grayer and grayer and grayer as it aged.

Mr. LIEBELER. What curb was it on?

Mr. WALTHERS. It would be on the south Main Street curb--it would be on the south side of Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354 here and I am looking at--looking specifically at spot No. 9 on that exhibit, it would have been directly east up Main Street on the north curb at No. 9, is that right?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, and about--I could step this off here--just about this distance from the underpass on the curb.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 or 15 feet or something like that?

Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine about 10 or 11 feet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, here's a picture that has been marked Tague Exhibit No. 1 and I have never even been able to figure out which way it is supposed to be looked at, but it purports to be a picture of a ricochet mark on this curb down there, does that look anything like what you saw down there?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, a little at one end where it first hit and then went to the left. This would be--this was shaded from the sun by someone's hand, evidently. This would actually be the curb--this would be the street right here [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. The lower part--the black part of the dark colored part?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes. Let me see now. A picture taken straight down like this don't have any particular bearing. I'll tell you what--this is going to be the divider between the pavement, because I remember, there's not any grass growing down there, it's just a gravel looking top, so this is going to be the street, and that's right, because the bullet is going to be big where it hit first, and then it left this trail.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the light colored part is the street and the dark colored part is the divider?

Mr. WALTHERS. I think it would be the street--the light colored part, and the dark colored part is this little gravelly looking part down there and it's under the shade of the underpass and no grass will grow there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The light colored part is a part of the street and the dark colored part is the curb and there is what appears to be a ricochet mark on the curb.

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; because it is high like--this is the curb and this is the street, and it come along this edge of the curb.

Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the top of the curb?

Mr. WALTHERS. And it angled down--at the angle, you could almost just point it right back up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WALTHERS. Evidently this shot must have went way high over that car--the last shot, as they were fixing to go to the underpass--it must have been awful high to hit where it did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the last shot, why?

Mr. WALTHERS. I would say it was the last shot because of the distance it went down towards the underpass. Had there been another shot, it would have been way--would have went way back over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The car had already been down--the car would have already been under and by the underpass?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else you saw or observed that day that you can tell us about what happened?

Mr. WALTHERS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you were there at the Texas Theatre helping to arrest Oswald, did you hear Oswald say anything when they tried to get ahold of him and tried to get him out of there?

Mr. WALTHERS. Like I say, there was quite a scuffle between them, but I heard him say, "It's all over now, it's all over now," or something to that degree, and I can't be sure, because like I say, there was such a scuffle going on and there was so much confusion, but he said something about, "Now"--"It's over now," or, "It's all over now."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anybody else heard anything that he said at the time; have you discussed this with anybody else?

Mr. WALTHERS. I haven't discussed it because the officers that were there were not in my squad and I haven't talked to anybody about it, but there were some other officers around there. Some of our officers were there but they weren't right there in the area.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear--there have been some stories that he actually tried to shoot one of the officers there with that pistol and one of the officers heard that pistol--the hammer hit the bullet, did you hear anything like that?

Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When I say, "Did you hear anything like that," I mean, did you hear the hammer in the pistol hit the bullet?

Mr. WALTHERS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear somebody say that it hit the bullet?

Mr. WALTHERS. I think McDonald said he snapped it at him.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't hear it?

Mr. WALTHERS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do think that Oswald said something like this--"It's over, it's all over now?"

Mr. WALTHERS. He said something--when he was being pulled up out of the seat and as they were getting the gun away from him is when he made a remark about, "It's over now, it's all over now."

Mr. LIEBELER. After he had been subdued and they got his gun away from him, he said that?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that I haven't asked you about, I don't think I have any more questions. I want to thank you very much for coming in and giving us your testimony, especially being as late as it is.

Mr. WALTHERS. I'm sorry if I was a little evasive on some of this, but I didn't remember--it's been quite a while now. Of course, I have the statement that I made immediately following all this, I guess, they sent you a copy of it. It would probably have a little more of the time and dates on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have covered the basic points that I wanted to cover and that's all. Thank you very much for coming.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES THOMAS TAGUE

The testimony of James Thomas Tague was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TAGUE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 20, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days, notice of the hearing, and you are entitled to the usual privileges so far as not answering questions are concerned.

Since you are here without an attorney, I presume that you are prepared to go ahead without the presence of counsel?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. TAGUE. James Thomas Tague.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. TAGUE. My address is 700 West Euless in Euless, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?

Mr. TAGUE. I am a salesman for Cedar Springs Dodge.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. TAGUE. Dallas; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. TAGUE. October 17, 1936.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. TAGUE. That's correct; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you happened to be there and what you saw, and what happened.

Mr. TAGUE. I was going downtown to pick up my wife--she was my girl that I was going with at the time--to take her to lunch, and I accidentally came upon the motorcade.

I was not planning to watch the parade or anything. There were several cars stopped in front of me, and I stopped there myself under the triple underpass and got out and was standing there just, oh, about a minute before the President's car came by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was your car actually located?

Mr. TAGUE. The nose of the car was sticking out from underneath the triple underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. What street were you on?

Mr. TAGUE. What is the farthest street to the south?

Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street?

Mr. TAGUE. Commerce; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Commerce Street is one-way going east?

Mr. TAGUE. Right; that's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. So they stopped all traffic on Commerce Street?

Mr. TAGUE. Cars in the left lane were stopping, the ones next to the curb, and several cars had stopped in front of me, and I stopped. The car was just halfway out from underneath the underpass, and I got out of my car and stood by the bridge abutment.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were just out from under the triple underpass so that you could see the President's car and the motorcade coming on down Elm Street, is that correct?

Mr. TAGUE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead and tell us what you saw.

Mr. TAGUE. Well, I was standing there watching, and really I was watching to try to distinguish the President and his car. About this time I heard what sounded like a firecracker. Well, a very loud firecracker. It certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. It was more of a loud cannon-type sound. I looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and I turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots.

And I ducked behind the post when I realized somebody was shooting after the third shot. After the third shot, I ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second, and I glanced out and just as I looked out, the car following the President's car, the one with the Secret Service men, was just flying past at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going on Elm Street under the triple underpass?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. Going on Elm. So I stood there looking around. I looked up--there was a motorcycle policeman, and he stopped and had drawn his gun and was running up the embankment toward the railroad tracks. A crowd of people; several people, were starting to come down into that area where he was running, and the people pointing, and excitement up there and so on, and about that time a patrolman who evidently had been stationed under the triple underpass walked up and said, "What happened?" and I said, "I don't know; something."

And we walked up to the--by this time the motorcycle policeman returned back close to where his motorcycle was, and we walked up there and there was a man standing there. Seeing that he was very excited--I don't remember his name--at the time I did have it on the tip of my tongue--very excited saying he was watching the President and it seemed like his head just exploded. This was a couple or 3 minutes after this happened. And the patrolman said, "Well, I saw something fly off back on the street."

We walked back down there, and another man joined us who identified himself as the deputy sheriff, who was in civilian clothes, and I guess this was 3 or 4 minutes after. I don't know how to gage time on something like that.

And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the face while I was standing down there."

And he looked up and he said, "Yes; you have blood there on your cheek."

And I reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood. And he said, Where were you standing?

And I says, "Right down here." We walked 15 feet away when this deputy sheriff said, "Look here on the curb." There was a mark quite obviously that was a bullet, and it was very fresh.

We turned around and we looked back up to see where this possibly could have come from, and the policeman thought he had seen something over here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I have some pictures here and I will show you to indicate these places, an aerial view of the whole area, Commission Exhibit No. 354. Of course, the Texas School Book Depository Building is here on the left, and this is the triple underpass here, and this, of course, is Commerce Street going toward the east.

As I understand it, your car was just nosed out in the left-hand lane of Commerce Street and was just out from under the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, so the nose of your car was on the easternmost portion, on the eastern side of the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, is that correct?

Mr. TAGUE. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you get out of your car?

Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do? Did you stay near your car or did you walk on the area toward the grassy plaza?

Mr. TAGUE. I was standing 3 or 4 feet in front of the concrete embankment right here [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's make a No. 6 on this picture as to where you were standing. This is the concrete strip that runs between Commerce and Main Street right here?

Mr. TAGUE. I was standing about right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 6?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that is where you were standing when you apparently got hit with this flying, whatever it was?

Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then after you had run into this deputy sheriff, you looked along the street and you saw what you thought to be a mark made by a----

Mr. TAGUE. A motorcycle was parked here and the policeman was here on the grass right here, and there was a swarm of people around him.

Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 7. Let's put a No. 7 there.

Mr. TAGUE. This man was relating his story of how he was standing right there as he witnessed the facts. He said it looked like the President's head exploded. And I said I felt something hit me. We walked down here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Toward No. 6?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. When we got within about 20 feet, the deputy sheriff spotted the place about 12 to 15 feet out from the embankment on the curb, and turned around, and we looked up here where the policeman originally ran up on the grass here.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is an area circled here with the letter "C" in it. Is that where the policeman ran toward the grassy area; included in that circle, is that right?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. I pointed this out, and we turned around and looked toward the School Book Depository, and from the reflection of the sun it was something on the window. Not the--well, it is maybe five or six windows which were open, which it was not the window that proved to be where the shots were fired, but it was a different window like it had spider webs or dust, and maybe shots had come through the window.

We said maybe this is where they came from. And the deputy sheriff ran back to the policeman. I may not be quite accurate, but I believe at the time there was a whole swarm of motorcycle policemen coming back to the area under the underpass going the wrong way here on Elm.

They came back and parked, and he mentioned to them--that is probably 5 minutes after it happened, and he was on the radio, and everybody ran up around the School Book Depository at this time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back and fix the general spot when the deputy sheriff saw the mark on the street, going back to point No. 6, which is where you were standing when you were hit. We go east along----

Mr. TAGUE. Right here is a curb.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a curb that runs along----

Mr. TAGUE. About 12 to 15 feet right on the top of round of the curb, was the mark that very definitely was fresh, and I would say it was a mark of a bullet.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say it is about 15 or 20 feet east of where you were standing?

Mr. TAGUE. No; about 12 to 15 feet.

Mr. LIEBELER. East of where you were standing?

Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. At point No. 6?

Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate 12 to 15 feet east on Main Street, is that right?

Mr. TAGUE. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been on the south curb of Main Street, is that right?

Mr. TAGUE. It would have been on the south curb.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 12 to 15 feet east of the point No. 6 on Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Now you yourself, as I understand it, did not see the President hit?

Mr. TAGUE. I did not; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything?

Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no connection. I looked around wondering what was going on, and I recall this. We got to talking, and I recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said, You have blood there on your cheek. That is when we walked back down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark?

Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't say definitely on which one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?

Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was about the time that you felt yourself struck?

Mr. TAGUE. I just glanced. I mean I just stopped, got out of my car, and here came the motorcade. I just happened upon the scene.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you went back there subsequently and took some pictures of the area, isn't that right?

Mr. TAGUE. Pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you went back subsequently and took some pictures of the area.

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; about a month ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I didn't know anybody knew about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Baker Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you took that picture.

Mr. TAGUE. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, that picture was taken by another individual; I confused the picture taken by somebody else with the picture I thought you had taken.

You, yourself did take pictures of the area about a month ago?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; my wife and I were going to Indianapolis. This is the home of my parents. I was taking some pictures of the area to show to them. This was the latter part of May.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look at the curb at that time to see if the mark was still there?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it still there?

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I could tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet a newspaper photographer that day and talk to him at all about the assassination?

Mr. TAGUE. The day of the assassination?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can recall. I left the area down there at about a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what I had seen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?

Mr. TAGUE. I did that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring now to Baker Exhibit No. 1, does that look like it might have been taken from approximately the place where you were standing at the time you got hit, from the same general area?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe I was back further to the left, back down this way further.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is further toward the west?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Further down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. TAGUE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it appear to you that the lamppost that is showing right here on the right-hand side of Baker Exhibit No. 1 is the very end of the grassy area described by Commerce Street and Main Street, and right down toward the concrete embankment?

Mr. TAGUE. It might possibly be.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you able to tell for sure by looking at Baker Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. TAGUE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have another picture here that purports to be a picture of a curb with a bullet mark on it. I ask you if that looks like what you saw that day.

Mr. TAGUE. It looks similar, but I can't say whether this is the actual one or not, because you can see it appears to be a bullet mark.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this picture, having marked it Tague Exhibit No. 1, and I would like to have you initial it for the purpose of identification.

(Mr. Tague initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicate that the mark on the curb----

Mr. TAGUE. I can't tell too much which angle of the curb this is or what here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is not a very clear picture either. Actually, I can't figure which way to look at it.

Mr. TAGUE. I can't either.

Mr. LIEBELER. It looks like there is a man standing there with a hand along the side of the curb.

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; this looks like the curb here at the back and the sun shining down. The bullet mark was right at the circle of the curb as this here.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, where the curb turned?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. At the very round, right in the middle of the round.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is where the street curb turns; when it turns there? I don't understand that. [Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354.]

Mr. TAGUE. This right here, this picture was taken this way. It would be looking this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am still at a loss. You indicated there is a turn in the curb at some point along here. Does the curb end and the road go together?

Mr. TAGUE. Here is the curb here I am talking about on the very round.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the round top of the curb? The curb itself continues on, but the bullet struck sort of the top edge of the curb?

Mr. TAGUE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand. Did you have any idea where these shots came from when you heard them ringing out?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes; I thought they were coming from my left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately to your left, or toward the back? Of course, now we have other evidence that would indicate that the shots did come from the Texas School Book Depository, but see if we can disregard that and determine just what you heard when the shots were fired in the first place.

Mr. TAGUE. To recall everything is almost impossible. Just an impression is all I recall, is the fact that my first impression was that up by the, whatever you call the monument, or whatever it was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Up above No. 7?

Mr. TAGUE. That somebody was throwing firecrackers up there, that the police were running up there to see what was going on, and this was my first impression. Somebody was causing a disturbance, that somebody had drawn a gun and was shooting at the crowd, and the police were running up to it. When I saw the people throwing themselves on the ground is when I realized there was serious trouble, and I believe that was after the third shot was fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression of where the shots came from was much the result of the activity near No. 7?

Mr. TAGUE. Not when I heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought they had come from the area between Nos. 7 and 5?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe they came from up in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Back in the area "C"?

Mr. TAGUE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Behind the concrete monument here between Nos. 5 and 7, toward the general area of "C"?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up near the railroad tracks in that area after you heard the shots?

Mr. TAGUE. I looked all around. I looked at the complete area to try to find out where the disturbance was. And for some reason, after the third shot, I believe I ducked down back in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Under the railroad tracks?

Mr. TAGUE. Right. Behind an abutment. And when I stuck my head outside, the Secret Service car was just starting to pass under the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. The car immediately behind the President. Did you see any evidence of anybody having fired from the area on the railroad tracks above the triple underpass?

Mr. TAGUE. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that it is consistent with what you heard and saw that day, that the shots could have come from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. TAGUE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was in fact a considerable echo in that area?

Mr. TAGUE. There was no echo from where I stood. I was asked this question before, and there was no echo. It was just a loud, oh, not a cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where there was no echo, you were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly?

Mr. TAGUE. I believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots?

Mr. TAGUE. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing anything else or observing anything else that day that you think would be helpful to the Commission, that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. TAGUE. Not that I can think of. There is lots of things that you recall about something like that, that you don't recall for certain. What struck me the most was that everybody said all three shots were accounted for. I felt very strongly that the third shot hit down there, and there was the deputy sheriff and the patrolman down under the bridge right there with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit down there?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were accounted for.

Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?

Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the paper more recently that indicated that one of them might have missed.

Mr. TAGUE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?

Mr. TAGUE. That's right; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, is there anything that you can think of that you think the Commission should know about of what you heard and saw that day?

Mr. TAGUE. No; I don't know a thing. The only thing that I saw that I thought was wrong was that there was about 5 or 6 or 7 minutes in there before anybody done anything about anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the shots were fired?

Mr. TAGUE. That was after the shots were fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean, "Before they did anything"?

Mr. TAGUE. There was no action taken except for the one policeman that I could see that stopped his motorcycle, and it fell over on him at first, and he got it standing upright and drew his gun, and he was the only one doing anything about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see any other policemen around in the area?

Mr. TAGUE. Not for 4 or 5 minutes. If Oswald was in that building, he had all the time in the world to calmly walk out of there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Apparently that is just what he did do. Well, if you can't think of anything else, Mr. Tague, I want to thank you for coming in and for the cooperation you have given us. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. TAGUE. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF EMMETT J. HUDSON

The testimony of Emmett J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HUDSON. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I don't think you did get 3 days' notice of it, but since you are here I assume you are willing to go ahead?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to have an attorney present?

Mr. HUDSON. I don't know that it is necessary--no, is it?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; I don't think it is at all necessary. Most of the witnesses don't have one present. We just have a few questions. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. HUDSON. Emmett J. Hudson.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. HUDSON. 107 South Bishop.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you are employed by the Dallas Park Department and you are the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you the grounds keeper of Dealey Plaza on or about November 22, 1963.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I have been there about 6 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard where the little toolshed was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nearest intersection to where you were?

Mr. HUDSON. Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and what?

Mr. HUDSON. Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm and Houston?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far away from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time the motorcade came by?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, I suppose that it's about--the best I can estimate is somewhere about 200 yards, I guess, down Elm and Houston when the motorcade came along--that's about where I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were right by where the motorcade came by; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the triple underpass and Houston, where the steps are--somewhere near about halfway.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. Let me see--that's the triple underpass down there--I don't believe this picture gets those steps--yes; it does, too--here they are--I recognize it now--here it is right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are the steps?

Mr. HUDSON. Here they are--right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is the series of steps that runs right down the street there?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you show me just where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, I was right along--you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say it is a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that.

Mr. HUDSON. Right along about there.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection.

Mr. HUDSON. Well, there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat down there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him--the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was when the bullet him him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON. Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately where the President's car was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, the best I could get right off--I remember it was right along about this lightpost right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand side of Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; coming off of Houston, you see, there's a lightpost right there close to the Houston Street, right there, just above this little crook right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. That lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; it doesn't show in the picture--it was about, I believe, where the first shot was fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think he was by the lightpost in this picture when the first shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON. Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car was when he was hit--at the time I was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. HUDSON. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I do believe that--I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear another shot?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that shot hit anything--the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir. I'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting there with me--standing there with me at the present time, he says, "Lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "Lay down," so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground--you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, just the sound of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing down here where we put the "X"?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that when the President was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's when he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had to look up Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; I was looking up this way, you see. You see [indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a reenactment of the scene.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired--somewhere right along in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON. Pretty close to it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?

Mr. HUDSON. He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the corner, you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't think so--I sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he got hit by the first shot?

Mr. HUDSON. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?

Mr. HUDSON. He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pulled him down in the seat?

Mr. HUDSON. Pulled him over in her lap like.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't think the President got hit by the first shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot----

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was hit again after he got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you watch the President after he got hit in the head like that?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you only saw the President hit once; is that right, sir?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you aren't able to say from your own observation when he was hit in the neck?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If he was hit in the neck.

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could the car have actually been down here where it is in photograph No. 18, could it have been that far down Elm Street--this is Elm Street that runs down here--right here--could the car have been that far down Elm Street when the President got hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see this little pedestal back up here?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just above the "X" where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember, during the time the President went by?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole bunch of them--a lot of people in there--a lot of people in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get--taking pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see a man with a moving picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON. Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time--now--I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Standing across Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. With a motion picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, he had a camera--I don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk about it, so we don't get confused?

Mr. HUDSON. You mean--put my name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Just your initials.

Mr. HUDSON. [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON. (No response.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right," doesn't it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you find that sign on the photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875? The one that we were talking about before.

Mr. HUDSON. That's right here, I believe--right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that sign says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep right." Where is the Stemmons Freeway sign in this picture? Can you see it in that picture at all--I can't.

Mr. HUDSON. I can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's further back up and it's out of the picture?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R. L. Thornton Freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "Fort Worth Turnpike, keep right."

Mr. HUDSON. There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right through there--them signs was--one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture--I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that R. L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. They have? They have moved it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That might explain it, because this picture here, No. 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time--No. 1.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it had to be right along in there--those steps have got to come down right along in here, if I see the picture right. Now, this is Elm right here coming down through here, and this is that concrete thing up here that comes around like this--it comes over here and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where those steps is.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you think you were standing somewhere in the back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of the concrete structure there?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; this was taken at the present time--it happened--this picture was?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself; yes, sir. Let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different angles, referring to photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875--there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side of the picture.

Mr. HUDSON. That's just right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and that appears in Hudson Exhibit No. 1, immediately to the right of the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." does it not?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; those steps are right along there between that concrete--the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree--that's a live oak tree right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that's right off of the end of this concrete embankment there, there's a live oak tree there.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you make yourself out?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I can't, unless it is one of these two men right here--I can't tell--if I had that picture that was taken in the Times Herald paper--I can show you myself in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, it was in the Times Herald paper the next morning after, I believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Look at this picture.

Mr. HUDSON. [Examining picture referred to.] I don't know--if that's one of them men and myself or not up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and you are not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. Actually, Commission Exhibit No. 203 shows a different area.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's a picture from the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to where you placed yourself by looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1.

Mr. HUDSON. No; I wouldn't be in that at all--I know. If they had that picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across Elm up toward those steps here, that showed my picture in it, I believe. Now, I could be one of those men standing right there--I'm not for sure--I wouldn't say for sure that I was one of them or not, but I can't see it well enough to tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this picture here you see the car is going down Elm Street, isn't that right, referring to Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it is just about to pass a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." Do you think that the President could have been hit when he was that far back up Elm Street?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do think that?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you had already heard one shot when you saw the President get hit in the head?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard another shot after that time?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think, looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, do you think that that is about the place where the President got hit in the head, or was it further back up on Elm or was it further down--if so--about where was it?

Mr. HUDSON. That's somewhere pretty close.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's pretty close right there?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it's somewhere pretty close.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard these three shots and saw the President get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little knoll there and you got away.

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing there, did you ever look up toward the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple underpass?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; while I was laying there I didn't--I was looking down towards Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that went across the underpass?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots came from the rear of the President's car and above it; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea that they might have come from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and kind of behind like--in other words, to the left.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book Depository, wouldn't it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up there and see if you could see anybody?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I didn't. I never thought about looking up that way, to tell you the truth about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were thinking about getting out of the way after things started?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow thinks about a million things in one second there at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody standing around there any place with a rifle--on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on the overpass or any place else?

Mr. HUDSON. I never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols.

Mr. LIEBELER. The policemen?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything else down there when this all happened that you think we ought to know about that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; I don't know of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Governor Connally--did you think Governor Connally had been hit?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, sir; I never noticed Governor Connally in the car. The first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when that happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you didn't even see Governor Connally in the car at all?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him get hit by any of the shots?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot and fell down in the car.

Mr. HUDSON. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw the President get hit by what you heard as the second shot?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be fired and how far apart was one shot from the other?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. It seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well--when the shots were all fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that?

Mr. HUDSON. Oh, probably 2 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As much as 2 minutes?

Mr. HUDSON. It might not have been that long.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you thought he had plenty of time to get all the shots off anyway?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever do any shooting?

Mr. HUDSON. Well, not no big rifle--I haven't never done no shooting with no big rifle. I have shot shotguns--.22's and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them closer together?

Mr. HUDSON. They seemed pretty well evenly spaced.

Mr. LIEBELER. Evenly spaced; is that it?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody talk to you at all about security arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all handled by the police?

Mr. HUDSON. That was all handled by the police.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have anything to do with anything like that?

Mr. HUDSON. That's right--the fact of the business is, I didn't know they had been routed that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't even know it was going to go by until they came?

Mr. HUDSON. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who talked to you?

Mr. HUDSON. Not by name, I don't; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you tell them approximately the same thing you have told me?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes; approximately the same thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the Secret Service talk to you, or the Dallas Police Department or the FBI?

Mr. HUDSON. The FBI and I made a deposition over at the courthouse--the same day that the assassination was.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's office?

Mr. HUDSON. The sheriff's office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Mr. Hudson, I want to thank you very much for coming in. I don't have any more questions.

Mr. HUDSON. Well, if it has been any help, I am glad it did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mr. HUDSON. If it has been any help, I am glad to come down.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you have been and we are glad to have you cooperate with us in the way you have. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission.

Mr. HUDSON. All right, good day.

TESTIMONY OF EDGAR LEON SMITH, JR.

The testimony of Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. was taken at 10:05 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you raise your right hand and please take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney with the staff of the President's Committee investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

By the rules of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know that you haven't had 3 days' notice of the hearing because of schedule difficulties that we had yesterday and the day before, but since you are here by yourself, I presume you are prepared to go ahead and give your testimony without an attorney being present; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. SMITH. Edgar Leon Smith, Jr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born?

Mr. SMITH. Myrtle Springs, Tex., July 9, 1933.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. SMITH. 1800 Scripture, Apartment 6, in Denton, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Dallas policeman?

Mr. SMITH. A Dallas policeman.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us just what led up to that; how you came to be assigned to that particular area and what instructions you were given about what you were supposed to do?

Mr. SMITH. Okay--the dates and times will be just approximately, because I don't recall exactly, but approximately 9 a.m., November 22, 1963, I attended a detail in the basement of the city hall for all men who were designated to work traffic for the President's visit to Dallas.

At that detail I was given instructions by Captain Lawrence, P. W. Lawrence, as to my duties and some things to watch out for. Some of these things I was to watch out for was to watch the crowd for any unusual movements and also to keep a check on the buildings in the vicinity of where I was located. He instructed us specifically about placards. I understand that people were allowed to carry placards, but if I should notice anyone attempting to throw them or anything like that, I should take them into custody. I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about----

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that--let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?

Mr. SMITH. E. L.--Edgar L.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were two Smiths on that corner?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I understand that.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you received your instructions that morning, was there any specific mention made of watching the windows of the buildings in the area?

Mr. SMITH. Not that I recall--just general--watch out, you know, for the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went down to the corner of Elm and Houston and took up your duty station there at about what time?

Mr. SMITH. I think it was about approximately 10 o'clock and--I believe that's about right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And there were two other officers there, isn't that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; there were.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what their names were?

Mr. SMITH. One of them was Welcome Barnett and the other boy was named Smith too, but I don't recall his initials.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach?

Mr. SMITH. I said approximately--oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered--and I show you Commission Exhibit No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be approximately where you were standing; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in that position?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just stood there mainly--there wasn't much to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this intersection here at Elm Street at all?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No. 354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building, were you not?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there?

Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open. I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically--any specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the windows and what not of the various buildings.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any suspicious activities of any kind in any of those windows?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the motorcade came down Main Street and turned right on Houston Street; what did you do then?

Mr. SMITH. I just stood parade rest there, you know, trying to keep the people back. I was facing the motorcade--they had come out in the street here a little bit and I just stood there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were facing west?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go out into the intersection at any point here and help hold traffic back at that intersection, did you?

Mr. SMITH. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you stood there as the motorcade went by, facing west down toward the triple underpass and the motorcade turned left and started to go down Elm Street, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. From where you are standing, could you observe the railroad tracks that went over the triple underpass down there at the bottom of Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. I'm sure I could see them from that location, but I don't remember, you know, noticing them. I had noticed them earlier in the day, probably from that location, and I had saw some officers up there, and other than that, I don't remember seeing anything else. I do specifically remember seeing some officers on the overpass here.

Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what happened?

Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the third one, I ran down the street here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that--yes; I was under these windows here.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the county building there you are talking about?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; a little bit farther down. Anyhow, I couldn't see down there without running over here, and I run down here at the time to see the Presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate of speed, and I pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down there and run down the street and that was about all. I thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and I was pretty sure there were when I saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, I thought they were coming from this area here, and I ran over there and checked back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind No. 7?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the railroad tracks there?

Mr. SMITH. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. And to the north of No. 7?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you ran down in there and what did you do when you got down there?

Mr. SMITH. I ran down here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down on Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. And I ran up to here and I couldn't get over so I went back around then.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went farther down Elm Street and right behind this concrete structure here; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. And on back into there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And into the parking area behind the concrete structure there at No. 7?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, and there's where I stayed for an hour or so and after I got around there, they started checking everybody that was going in and out of the--well, I don't know who they was checking because there was so much milling around, because there was a bunch of county officers back there plus the policemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. That area was fairly searched by the officers that came down there?

Mr. SMITH. It was.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't find anything down there that seemed to have anything to do with the shot that you heard?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they came from?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir--like I said--the first two were just--I mulled it over in my mind and I thought it was firecrackers and I thought to myself that was awful--not very nice--throwing them out there, and then it dawned on me that it wasn't and that these were shots, especially after I ran to the corner, and this was after the third shot was fired that I got to the corner, and all I saw was the Presidential car going under the underpass, but there were definitely three of those shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you left the general area marked "C" here, on Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. Well, of course, you see we checked all these cars--this extends for some distance over to the north and I went all the way down the railroad tracks a long ways and turned around and came back and took a position right down here where No. 1 is now--this was about an hour or an hour and a half after the thing happened, and I don't guess it was that long, because they had just got the word--I had already gotten back around here when Officer Tippit was shot and we got the word over the police radio, and they took off and I stayed in this area for quite some time around the front, working traffic, and I don't remember when I really left.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, after you searched behind the north and west of the School Book Depository Building, you came back up to position No. 1?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You then remained in the general area of the School Book Depository Building for some period, and then you were relieved from duty?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I went back to work again on my regular duty. I had been working evenings, and I had to report to work--it was 6 o'clock, I think, and after that I went directly to work.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody or anything that you could associate with the shots or with the assassination itself other than you have already described?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I have thought about it many times. I didn't see any smoke or anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. And at no time did you see any activity down on the railroad tracks that you associated with the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is what you heard that day consistent with the proposition that the shots came from the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. They could have come from there and they could not--I just don't know. Where I was standing it just sounded like it was all round there. When I first thought--I don't know whether it actually came from here or not--you know, the thoughts of sounds coming--I don't know whether they were coming from here or not--it just looked like this was a good place for them to come from and I guess that's the reason I ran down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down around No. 7 pointed out on this Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I have no earthly idea where they actually came from.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.

Mr. SMITH. That's okay.

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM ZAPRUDER

The testimony of Abraham Zapruder was taken at 1 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, would you stand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear this testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. What is your name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137.

Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have your attorney present, should you desire to have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing and you need not answer any questions you think would violate any rights or privileges that you may have. Did you receive the 3 days' notice of the hearing?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I was out of town--I was in New York and my secretary called--she called me and told me that she made an appointment for me and that's about all that I know, Mr. Liebeler. The other proceedings--I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. I assume that you are willing to go ahead with your testimony today since you are here.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Abraham Zapruder.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's spelled [spelling] Z-a-p-r-u-d-e-r? Is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Home address?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. 3909 Marquette.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. In Dallas--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you in business here in Dallas, Mr. Zapruder?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you in?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Manufacturing ladies dresses.

Mr. LIEBELER. The manufacture of ladies dresses?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you took some motion pictures at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us about the circumstances under which you did that, where you were at the time and what happened?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what you saw.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, of course, what I saw you have on film, but that was the day, November 22, it was around 11:30. In fact, I didn't have my camera but my secretary asked me why I don't have it and I told her I wouldn't have a chance even to see the President and somehow she urged me and I went home and got my camera and came back and first I thought I might take pictures from the window because my building is right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's just across--501 Elm Street, but I figured--I may go down and get better pictures, and I walked down, I believe it was Elm Street and on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and I was trying to pick a space from where to take those pictures and I tried one place and it was on a narrow ledge and I couldn't balance myself very much. I tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or whatever it was there and finally I found a place farther down near the underpass that was a square of concrete--I don't know what you call it--maybe about 4 feet high.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Let me see--there it is here. That's me standing there--there's a girl--that's where I was standing.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up immediately to the right of the sign that reads "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right"?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right. That's the girl behind me--that's my girl that works in my office. She was up there, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you and this girl are shown standing on top of this concrete abutment there?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--she was right behind me and that's from where I took the pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then, you can actually see yourself in this picture, can't you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I can't distinguish myself being--I know I was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that this picture was taken at the time you were there?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; I was there and I would say this couldn't be anybody else, unless--if this is an authentic photograph and it isn't composed now or changed--I would say that's me. That's the first time I have seen that. Were these pictures ever published in a magazine--there were pictures like that I suppose--actually?

Mr. LIEBELER. This picture here is in fact one of a series of pictures that is being sold down here in Dallas by a fellow named Willis, I believe his name is Phil Willis. He has a series of slides that are available and it's picture No. 5 of those slides in which you can see yourself back there.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That must be it because there's another couple back there--I took some from there and I was shooting some of the pictures to start my roll from the beginning. I didn't want to have a blank and I shot some, in fact, they have it--the Federal Bureau of Investigation have those pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did it not?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened as you took the pictures.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, as the car came in line almost--I believe it was almost in line--I was standing up here and I was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--I imagine it was around here--I heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area).

Mr. LIEBELER. Grab himself on the front of his chest?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Right--something like that. In other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the President slump over?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Leaning--leaning toward the side of Jacqueline. For a moment I thought it was, you know, like you say, "Oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then I saw--I don't believe the President is going to make jokes like this, but before I had a chance to organize my mind, I heard a second shot and then I saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and I started--I can hardly talk about it [the witness crying].

Mr. LIEBELER. That's all right, Mr. Zapruder, would you like a drink of water? Why don't you step out and have a drink of water?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I'm sorry--I'm ashamed of myself really, but I couldn't help it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, Mr. Zapruder. I feel the same way myself. It was a terrible thing.

Let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I thought I heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation I thought he was hit on the second--I really don't know. The whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see--I got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but I don't know. I never even heard a third shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I heard the second--after the first shot--I saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what I saw, you know, then I started yelling, "They killed him, they killed him," and I just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and I was still shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--I don't even know how I did it. And then, I didn't even remember how I got down from that abutment there, but there I was, I guess, and I was walking toward--back toward my office and screaming, "They killed him, they killed him," and the people that I met on the way didn't even know what happened and they kept yelling, "What happened, what happened, what happened?" It seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and I kept on just yelling, "They killed him, they killed him, they killed him," and finally got to my office and my secretary--I told her to call the police or the Secret Service--I don't know what she was doing, and that's about all. I was very much upset. Naturally, I couldn't imagine such a thing being done. I just went to my desk and stopped there until the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the films. I knew I had something, I figured it might be of some help--I didn't know what.

As to what happened--I remember the police were running behind me. There were police running right behind me. Of course, they didn't realize yet, I guess, where the shot came from--that it came from that height.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. After the shots?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line--it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the direction behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicated that they could have come also from behind or from any other direction except perhaps from the left, because they could have been from behind or even from the front.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it could have been--in other words if you have a point--you could hit a point from any place, as far as that's concerned. I have no way of determining what direction the bullet was going.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion about the direction from which the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, there was too much reverberation. There was an echo which gave me a sound all over. In other words that square is kind of--it had a sound all over.

Mr. LIEBELER. And with the buildings around there, too?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, the reverberation was such that a sound--as it would vibrate--it didn't vibrate so much but as to whether it was a backfire--in other words, I didn't from the first sound, from him leaning over--I couldn't think it was a shot, but of course, the second--I think it was the second shot. I don't know whether they proved anything--they claim he was hit--that the first bullet went through him and hit Connally or something like that--I don't know how that is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there are many different theories about that. One thing I would like you to do now--we have a series--a little book here that is Commission Exhibit No. 885 and it consists of a number of frames from motion pictures and I want to show you certain numbers of them which are important to our work and ask you if those look like they were taken from your film and if in fact you could recognize it as you look through this book that these are individual frame-by-frame pictures of the pictures that you took.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, they are frame by frame and they weren't very clear, for the simple reason that on the telephoto lens it's good to take stills--when you move--did you ever have binoculars and every time you move everything is exaggerated in the move--that's one reason why they are kind of blurred--the movement. Now, you want me to identify whether these are my pictures?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. 185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures that you took from your motion picture camera?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I would say this, they look like--if they were taken from the film I had--these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how to express myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they were.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, it looks like them--that's when they turned in from Elm Street. Is that it? I'm trying to visualize it. This is taking it from the opposite side of me, is it, where I would have been taking it, because I see this structure--I have been around there and--or these--this couldn't be here--where did they get this in there--how did they get this in there, if I was taking the pictures where did they get this in there? That shouldn't be there.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the thing back up behind on Dealy Plaza, I think, isn't it?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. They have one there, too?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, I think there is. Now, if you will look at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, you will see that there is some kind of concrete structure there and is a different kind from that figure. It has bigger holes in it.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right--in the back of this here, that's where it is--that's what I thought it was--that's where I got mixed up.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought that the concrete latticework on the individual pictures in Commission Exhibit No. 885----

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Now I see it--that's where they have moved now the flowers and all that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--I have to state this for the record--so they can understand what we are talking about--you confused it with the concrete lattice work shown in the background in the individual photographs in Commission Exhibit No. 885, with the larger and obviously different concrete structure in the background of Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes, that--there is Elm Street there--this is a corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, specifically here--let me show you the ones that have been numbered 185 and 186 and see if you can recognize those. This is 185 here that we are looking at now--of Commission Exhibit No. 885.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This is where he came in from Houston Street and turned there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and they are going down Elm Street now?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there--the shot wasn't fired, was it? You can't tell from here?

Mr. LIEBELER. (no response).

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I believe it was closer down here where it happened. Of course, on the film they could see better but you take an 8 millimeter and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of detail. I wish I had an enlarger here for you.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, frame No. 185 does look like it's one of the frames, sir?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And 186 is similar also?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I've got a list of them here that I want to ask you about--picture 207 and turn on over to this picture. It appears that a sign starts to come in the picture--there was a sign in the picture.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; there were signs there also and trees and somehow--I told them I was going to get the whole view and I must have.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the sign was in the way?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; but I must have neglected one part--I know what has happened--I think this was after that happened--something had happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you looked at your pictures yourself, do you remember that there was a sign that does appear between the camera and the motorcade itself and you can see the motorcade for a while and the sign comes in the view?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the motorcade comes behind it. Now, what about picture No. 210--however--there is no No. 210 in here.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about No. 222? Now, in No. 222 you can see the President's car coming out from behind the sign.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you can see Governor Connally right there in that center seat, I believe?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; Governor Connally--yes--these are all the same pictures--I remember the car was kind of buried and I was kind of low and I don't know how I got that view--I didn't get just the full view of the shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn to 225 and there the car is coming further out from behind the sign.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still the same part of the sequence?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can now see the President for the first time.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; that's the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. The President appears to have his hand up by his throat as he is just coming from behind the sign.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it looks like he was hit--it seems--there--somewhere behind the sign. You see, he is still sitting upright.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; he's sitting up and holding his hand up.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Do we have the sequence--the next frames?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it will be No. 227 and his hand comes up even more and he starts to move a little to his left.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Apparently. And they started speeding the car then to--but he is still sitting up here. Is that still the President here?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in picture No. 228--he still appears to have his hand up and in No. 229 it's even more pronounced.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As the car keeps coming up from behind and in picture 230 he has raised both hands up.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. It looks to me like he went like this--did he go to his throat--I don't remember--I thought he went like this [holding both hands on the left side of his chest]. Did it show?

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's turn over to picture 231 here--these still appear to be the same sequence of pictures, do they not?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; you get about 16 per second and I think my camera was moving a little fast, maybe 18 frames per second, you see, we have a lot of pictures on there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And 235 is there.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; we've got that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In 235 both hands are up by his throat there or up to the top of his chest and Mrs. Kennedy is looking at him.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. To me it looks like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it looks to you as though he moved a little more sharply perhaps?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Toward her--there are so many frames, of course, this is probably his first reaction, but he leaned over--it would be after the shot was fired, after I heard a sound, he went like this [leaning to the left and holding both hands to the left side of his chest].

Mr. LIEBELER. He moved over to his left and pulled his hands there?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; he moved to the left and pulled his hands somewhat in this direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does picture 235 appear to be one of the pictures that was taken from your sequence?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about 240--let's turn over to 240 and there he has turned his head toward the left a little bit more.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. There's only about 100 frames--they are so close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Five frames?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Five frames is nothing--I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about 249?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No. 249--I just wonder if it was the motion that he went back with that I don't remember--it looks like he has got his hand on his head--I don't remember seeing that. Of course, the pictures would show.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; when you pick one of them out it's hard to break it down and pick them out.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; it's hard. We run them in single frames--and to get the main shot--it's hard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, let's turn over to picture 255--these all do look like they are from your film?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; they are--I know this--I have seen it so many times. In fact, I used to have nightmares. The thing would come every night--I wake up and see this.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about 255--what about that one?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's still the same series.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's still the same series--they keep moving along.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And let's look at No. 213--as we go along here--then he does start moving sharply to the left.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; when you take it frame by frame, it could have been just 2 or 3 seconds, but the impression was that he was leaning over and not just sitting there and looking over that and grabbing himself at the left side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; moving toward Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's what impressed me. Now, what number are you on?

Mr. LIEBELER. 313--you remember that one?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That was--that was the horrible one.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to you then, that this book of pictures here as you look through it, are your pictures?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Zapruder, after you had the film developed I understand Mr. Sorrels from the Secret Service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to Mr. Sorrels, is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. One we have sent to Washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the FBI on Ervay Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's the Secret Service?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. The Secret Service--I brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by Army plane or I don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to Washington and one of them, I believe, remained here with Mr. Sorrels. He came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that you, yourself, retained the original film?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. No; I don't have that at all--I don't have any at all. They were sold to Time and Life magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. You sold that to Life magazine?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is interested in one aspect of this and I would like to ask you if you would mind telling us how much they paid you for that film.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. For the film?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I just wonder whether I should answer it or not because it involves a lot of things and it's not one price--it's a question of how they are going to use it, are they going to use it or are they not going to use it, so I will say I really don't know how to answer that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not going to even urge you to answer the question. We will ask it and if you would rather not answer it--the Commission feels it would be helpful.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I received $25,000, as you know, and I have given that to the Firemen's and Policemen's Benevolence with a suggestion for Mrs. Tippit. You know that?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know that--you received $25,000?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. $25,000 was paid and I have given it to the Firemen's and Policemen's Fund.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gave the whole $25,000?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes. This was all over the world. I got letters from all over the world and newspapers--I mean letters from all over the world. It was all over the world--I am surprised--that you don't know it--I don't like to talk about it too much.

Mr. LIEBELER. We appreciate your answer very much.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I haven't done anything, the way I have given it, at a time like this.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to tell you, you may not be aware of it yourself, but I want to tell you that your film has been one of the most helpful things to the work of the Commission that we could possibly have had because it has enabled us to study the various positions of the people in the car and to determine by comparing it with the reenactment--by comparing it to the view from the window of the building, to develop with a fair degree of accuracy the facts here.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I understand--and I am willing to be helpful but I am sorry it had to be on an occasion like this. I am willing to be helpful but I wish this would never have happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I know they have taken my camera to Washington.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Bell & Howell camera, isn't that right?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you turned it over to the FBI and they have made tests on it?

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes; and then Bell & Howell wanted it for their archives and I thought they were through with it and let them have it. In return, they gave me, not for my personal use, but a sound projector which was given to the Golden Age Group. It's a place where old folks have a home. I asked them to donate something. I didn't want the camera. I didn't want anything for myself. Then the FBI wanted the camera again and I referred them to the Bell & Howell people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the FBI asked for the camera back because the Commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames fast--instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined--the length of time it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication there were two?

Mr. LIEBELER. Your films were extremely helpful to the work of the Commission, Mr. Zapruder.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. I am only sorry I broke down--I didn't know I was going to do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Zapruder, I want to thank you very much, for the Commission, for coming down. It has been very helpful.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, I am ashamed of myself. I didn't know I was going to break down and for a man to--but it was a tragic thing, and when you started asking me that, and I saw the thing all over again, and it was an awful thing--I know very few people who had seen it like that--it was an awful thing and I loved the President, and to see that happen before my eyes--his head just opened up and shot down like a dog--it leaves a very, very deep sentimental impression with you; it's terrible.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you don't have to feel ashamed about that at all, and thank you very much. I enjoyed meeting you very much.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. All right, any time you want some more help you can call on me and I will be glad to come in.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, thank you a lot.

Mr. ZAPRUDER. Goodbye.

TESTIMONY OF PERDUE WILLIAM LAWRENCE

The testimony of Perdue William Lawrence was taken at 9:15 p.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and the Commission has been set up by Executive order of President Johnson and a joint resolution of Congress. These two official acts have directed the Commission to investigate into the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, to evaluate all the facts we find and report back to President Johnson upon them. We have asked you to come here in particular this evening, Captain Lawrence, because we are interested in the security precautions that were taken both in connection with the protection of President Kennedy and in the prospective transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail. I might say that there are a set of rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the Commission and under these rules and regulations I have been designated to take your deposition. You are entitled to receive a written notice 3 days in advance from the Commission. It has been the practice with all of the police officers who have testified that we have simply written a letter to Chief Curry and he has been good enough to make you people available. I assume that you haven't received proper notice, and I will ask you at this time if you are willing to waive that notice?

Captain LAWRENCE. Certainly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since you are willing to waive the notice, if you will raise your right hand I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain LAWRENCE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not my initials--my full name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your full name.

Captain LAWRENCE. Perdue [spelling]. P-e-r-d-u-e William Lawrence [spelling], L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Lawrence?

Captain LAWRENCE. 1623 South Clinton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Captain LAWRENCE. In August--1911--August 18.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department?

Captain LAWRENCE. I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank?

Captain LAWRENCE. Captain of police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the police department?

Captain LAWRENCE. Nineteen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you captain of police on November 22, 1963?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in charge of any particular department?

Captain LAWRENCE. Traffic at this particular time. I am in charge of the accident prevention bureau of the Dallas Police Department, but my specific assignment was traffic control for the Presidential motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a special 1-day assignment that you had?

Captain LAWRENCE. Well, in this particular case--it was for this particular occasion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any other person in the department who regularly was concerned with what you call traffic control?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; Capt. R. A. Thompson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why you handled the traffic control responsibilities for the Presidential motorcade rather than Captain Thompson?

Captain LAWRENCE. None that I know of; none that I can think of except that Chief Batchelor saw me and said, "I want you to get together with Lieutenant Southard." Lieutenant Southard works for Captain Thompson and we were to use my motorcycle officers and his corner men, so, because of the motorcade part of it, I assume that this was the reason that it was turned over to me. Normally on parade or a special assignment and such, this is under the jurisdiction of Captain Thompson, but because of the escort part of it, I am assuming that this was why it was given to me. I would like to also add that Captain Thompson and I work evenings on alternate Friday and Saturday nights, and I was scheduled to work daytime hours on Friday, November 22, and this may also be a reason I was given this particular assignment. Captain Thompson did work evenings on Friday, November 22, 1963, and Saturday, November 23, 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you participated in other traffic control projects in the past?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been involved in one that involved the President of the United States or any other important official who required special protection?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your experience in the Dallas Police Department, had there ever been a time when there had been a President or an important person who had come through who required special protection?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; but not in which I was directly assigned to any duties. When President Kennedy came to town to visit Mr. Rayburn at Baylor Hospital, Lieutenant Curtis was in charge of that detail and I don't know if I was on a day off or what it was, but I was not in charge of that detail at all. I made none of those arrangements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From whom did you receive your instructions in connection with the duties that you were to carry out?

Captain LAWRENCE. My immediate superior was Deputy Chief R. H. Lunday, and I received my instructions from Chief Lunday and Asst. Chief Batchelor; both of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first told that you were to be in charge of this traffic control?

Captain LAWRENCE. The first day was on a Tuesday--November 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who told you at that time?

Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did Chief Batchelor tell you at that time that your responsibilities would be?

Captain LAWRENCE. He told me he wanted me to go over this route and to start working with the assignments of men to the intersections on the motorcade route, and he said that he had gone over this route and handed me a list of intersections that he wanted covered and the amount of men he wanted on each intersection and the reason he wanted more than one or two at certain intersections was because of the turning movements of the motorcade, but he also wanted assignments made to certain overpasses and told me the number of men that he would like to have stationed on the overpasses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you the names of the particular men he wanted on the overpass?

Captain LAWRENCE. He gave me the names of no men. He told me to make the assignments, and when he handed me this list, he was either with Chief Lunday or I went immediately to Chief Lunday and asked for the assistance of Lt. W. F. Southard because he--his men would be directly involved also in these assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice you have a list in your hand. Is that the list Chief Batchelor gave you?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's the list that Chief Batchelor gave me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we marked this and returned this for our file?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; not a bit. I would like to add that it was not requested that I bring any papers with me. I did bring with me some original personnel assignment notes for the purpose of refreshing my memory, and I see no reason why my superiors would object to any requests made by this Committee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now turn this over and I will state for the record that it consists of five small white sheets of paper, roughly 2-1/2 by 5 inches in size, and there are a number of handwritten notations on it and I'm going to mark this on the back.

Captain LAWRENCE. I believe this to be the handwriting of Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm going to mark this Capt. P. W. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. In handing this memo to you, did Chief Batchelor say anything to you about what the men on the overpass were supposed to do?

Captain LAWRENCE. He was stationing the men on the overpass to see that no one else came onto the overpass so that no one would be over the motorcade when the President passed under it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than stationing people at intersections, were you given any instructions as to stationing men in between blocks?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the 18th of November did you later receive further instructions from your superiors?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you next receive instructions?

Captain LAWRENCE. I next received instructions well, during the week we discussed this with Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor--certain assignments as far as the motorcycle escorts were concerned, and not directly at that time regarding stationing of any men on any particular corner.

I might add that when Lieutenant Southard and I went over this route, we found one intersection open and which was on Record Street, which raised our total--this is my writing here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, this is at the bottom of the second page and you have written in the word "Record."

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right--that's my handwriting and during that week I was next told, of course, to contact other people regarding the route connected with the motorcade to see that no trains would be coming across at the time that the Presidential motorcade was passing through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These were grade crossings that you are talking about?

Captain LAWRENCE. Grade crossing--yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of your first meeting with Chief Batchelor were you given any special instructions about the protection of the President?

Captain LAWRENCE. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you received some instructions from one of your superiors?

Captain LAWRENCE. The next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the motorcade assignments--possibly 2 days before the President arrived--I asked how we would escort this motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And with whom did you discuss that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Lunday and Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody from the Secret Service present at that time?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time--no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told about the purpose of the officers that were being provided, if anything?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was told that there would be these lead motorcycle officers, and that we would also have these other officers alongside the President's car and the Vice President's car, and some of the others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time I had prepared a list of 18 solo motorcycle officers, this included three solo sergeants.

I was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached Stemmons Expressway, Chief Batchelor told me that he wanted a solo motorcycle officer in each traffic lane, each of the five traffic lanes waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on Stemmons Expressway would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle officers to pull away from the escort and get up there on Stemmons Freeway and block the traffic, and some of these officers, he stated, would pull past the Presidential car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this include blocking oncoming traffic?

Captain LAWRENCE. This would stop all oncoming traffic on Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All the way to the Trade Mart?

Captain LAWRENCE. No, sir--this would stop all traffic that would be northbound on Stemmons, on--all northbound traffic on Stemmons Expressway, in the five lanes of traffic, so when the motorcade came onto the freeway, that no cars would be able to pass it, that the motorcycle officers would stop the traffic, and then the motorcycle officers after all the motorcade was headed for the Trade Mart, that then these motorcycle officers would slowly move up, but they would keep all the traffic behind--all the northbound traffic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, the southbound traffic would be permitted to run in the southbound lanes?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that conversation take place?

Captain LAWRENCE. That conversation took place about the 20th of November--2 days before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service. This was the first time I had attended any conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and I listened in on most of the discussion and I heard one of the Secret Service men say that President Kennedy did not desire any motorcycle officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he would want the officers to the rear. This conversation I overheard as Chief Batchelor was using a blackboard showing how he planned to handle this--how plans had been made to cover the escort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the President?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for?

Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, these people were already meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any instructions as to what the men were to do whom you stationed at the various intersections and elsewhere along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I discussed this with Chief Lunday two or three times and Chief Batchelor two or three times before this meeting ever took place and we discussed the fact that maybe some demonstrators with placards might show up and that the officers stationed along the route should be instructed to be on the alert for any persons that might throw anything or make any movement that might endanger the President at all, and if there were any incident of that nature, that the person would be arrested immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion between you and your superior officers about watching the buildings and windows in the buildings or the tops of the buildings?

Captain LAWRENCE. No, no instructions were given to me about my men watching the buildings--no, so, mine were more crowd control instructions--to watch the crowds, to keep them back, and to block off the traffic and to block off the streets on the approach of the motorcade and not to let them by--and to keep the crowds back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other men who were going to have other responsibilities?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, it was my understanding that the other responsibilities in regard to security were to be handled by the special service bureau and the members of the criminal investigation division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they going to be stationed along the routes?

Captain LAWRENCE. It was my understanding that they would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed as to how many men would be in each particular location?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With specific reference to Dealey Plaza and the area of Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository, did you have any idea of how many Secret Service or detective bureau people or CID people would be in that area?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any advice or instructions from any member of the Secret Service about watching buildings or performing other functions other than the normal crowd controls which you have just mentioned?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you met with the Secret Service, what do you recall that the Secret Service did discuss?

Captain LAWRENCE. I sat in on the discussion and I did not participate in any at all, and from what I heard there would be sufficient personnel inside the Trade Mart--they were discussing this, and these detectives' assignments were not the ones that I was at that time primarily instructed in, so--I know that they had made some elaborate precautions, which no one discussed with me, but I don't remember all of the conversation that went on regarding that. I was particularly interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones that I was listening for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that the Secret Service man in there--when it was mentioned about these motorcycle officers alongside the President's car, he said, "No, these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward the car, if there was any movement at all where the President was endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun their motors and get between them and the Presidential car," and he mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and those words were mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But was that concept of the security and the safety of the President spelled out in any certain details?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. Now, you see, I'm not familiar with some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau commanders. Now, I didn't know until that time who was going to be in charge at the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is that that you have reference to?

Captain LAWRENCE. Sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. on November 21. I knew at that time that Captain Souter would be in charge, and when I was so advised, after this meeting I asked Souter if I could meet him down at the Trade Mart, and discuss how the motorcade would come into the Trade Mart, and they had discussed also about keeping an area open down there and it had also been discussed with me--I might add one thing that I had forgotten to say before--that there would be two officers remain with the Presidential car while he was in the Trade Mart. This was told to me by Assistant Chief Batchelor--to the best of my knowledge.

After this conference, I asked Captain Souter if I could meet him down at the Trade Mart and he said he would be down there and then I called Sgt. S. Q. Bellah [spelling] B-e-l-l-a-h. I called him on the phone at home and asked him if he could meet me down there because he was going to be the leading solo motorcycle sergeant. He met me at the Trade Mart with Stavis Ellis, another solo motorcycle sergeant, who was going to be leading the Presidential motorcade and I met with both of them down there on the evening of the 21st, so that I would know how they would come in the area and how they were to be escorted around in the area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said, that your principal concern then was keeping the motorcade moving smoothly?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was no special attention brought on your part to the question of actually protecting the President other than from some impediment to the actual movement of the automobile.

Captain LAWRENCE. Mainly--my understanding was mainly that my assignment was for crowd control and, of course, security would be involved in it, as far as anyone making any movements in the crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare a list of the assignments that you gave in stationing your men along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did and I might add another thing that I have overlooked here, that Chief Batchelor had also instructed me to have one man on a three-wheel motorcycle--to station this one man over the Stemmons overpass at Industrial, to make sure that no car stopped and no people stopped there who would be in a position to throw anything down when the motorcade came off of Stemmons Freeway to make its turn onto Industrial, and there would be a three-wheeler up there and he had specifically instructed me on that, which to me was security as well too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you given any general instructions to go out and look along the route for special security problems that might arise along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I was not, but I did do this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that regard?

Captain LAWRENCE. This is getting ahead, but after the detail was put out in the detail room and I had talked to the motorcycle officers and the motorcade officers and had given them their instructions, I then went out to Love Field with Maj. George Tropolis of the police reserves who is in charge of the police reserves and awaited the arrival of the President and to see that all the motorcycle officers were at the proper location, I had already given a copy of the detail to each one of the sergeants and their instructions and when we were out there at the airport, the weather cleared up and the officers put their raincoats, of course, in the motorcycle saddlebags and when the Presidential plane arrived and President Kennedy got off of the plane, I saw that there was going to be a brief ceremony there, and I knew that Chief Lumpkin was going to--I had been told was going to be ahead of this motorcade--I got in my car and tried to be a few blocks ahead of him to make sure that everybody was on their assignments, and, of course, the crowd, the huge crowd en route surprised me, especially in the residential area, that all the people had turned out to see the President. I didn't expect a crowd this big, and, of course, we had officers stationed at many intersections along the route, but not at every intersection until we got to the downtown area. Not every intersection was covered, but as I went along the route, this didn't look like it was necessary because the crowds already had blocked the streets, and no motor vehicle could have crossed some of these streets. As I came up to many of these intersections--I slowed my car down and I was in uniform, but I was driving a plain car which I drive, and I told the officers to keep the traffic in back of me moving and not let any vehicles cross because I could hear Chief Curry on channel 2 giving the location of the motorcade from time to time, and I knew a few blocks ahead of him would be Chief Lumpkin, and I knew that I would have to stay considerably ahead of him. Although I was not given this assignment--I proceeded on this route, and I followed it on down to the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did you first give instructions to the men who were actually stationed along the route as to what they should do?

Captain LAWRENCE. I gave them those instructions on the morning of November 22 and I had with me at the time--I had the detail with me and some notes that I had written. I first told the men the approximate time of the arrival of the President's plane at Love Field. Then, I went over the route that the motorcade would take to the Trade Mart and then the approximate time they were scheduled to be at the Trade Mart and then to leave for Love Field.

I stated that there would be some assignments which we would call assignment No. 1, assignment No. 2 and assignment No. 3. Some officers would only have one assignment and some would have two and some would have three, and that these assignments would be given to them by Lieutenant Southard, that there would be supervisors stationed along the route, cruising the route, and would be able to assist them. I then covered the supervisory assignments, telling them where these sergeants would be stationed along the route, and if anything came up they were to contact them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The men you assigned, from the instructions that you gave them, what would you expect that these men would do besides simply keep people from running out into the motorcade of cars?

Captain LAWRENCE. They are crowd control--for the motorcade to move and I also gave the men instructions that it would be no violation--for persons to carry placards, that we expected very little of this, but that they were to be alert to any unusual movements in the crowd so that no one threw anything at the President, that there would be no repetition of the Ambassador Stevenson incident, that President Kennedy was the President of the United States and entitled to the courtesy and protection of this office, and it was their duty to see that this was done, and if there were any violations of the law of any type, that they would arrest individuals immediately, and these were the specific instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if a man, captain, one of your men was placed at a station--was actually standing out there and acting pursuant to these orders, first of all, let me ask you what direction would he be looking; would he be looking toward the street or would he be turned around and facing the crowd?

Captain LAWRENCE. He would either be facing the crowd or facing the street, depending on the necessity at that time. He was given no specific instructions except that he was not told specifically that he would face the crowd on the traffic assignments, but he was told that he was to watch the crowd, so I wouldn't say that the man--that all of the men on the route were specifically instructed to face the crowd. I gave them no such instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you drove down the route preceding the motorcade, did you observe just exactly what these men were doing?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; most of the men were watching the oncoming traffic and keeping it moving. They were keeping this oncoming traffic moving. Some of the men were trying to push the crowd back, especially in the downtown area. There were many of them facing the crowds there and trying to push the crowds back, and this was, I imagine, about a mile ahead of the motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a practical matter--stationing as you did two men at each intersection generally--could two men have effectively prevented anyone who was bent upon attacking the President, could they have effectively prevented him from rushing out and doing something?

Captain LAWRENCE. If they saw them in time, but two men, in as large a crowd as that--these men had all they could handle, with as large a crowd as we had turn out for that motorcade. It was a full-time job keeping the crowd back, and this was what the officers were trying to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you given any thought, or do you have any suggestions as to how a police department the size of the Dallas Police Department could have stationed more men along the route so that they could have effectively--not only kept the crowd back but could have been effectively on the lookout for people who might want to rush out and do something?

Captain LAWRENCE. Well, looking back on it, I would say, with the manpower that we had for this particular job and the crowd that turned out, that without the use of precautions, these men would have a very difficult time keeping a crowd back like that. This crowd was an enthusiastic crowd, as you know, as you probably have heard many times, and it was a bigger crowd than I expected.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it practical for a city the size of Dallas to use barricades or ropes along the motorcade, the length of the one that the President traveled?

Captain LAWRENCE. Well, with the length of this motorcade, I don't believe that we could have on this short a notice, and this is my opinion. We would have to go to another source to get sufficient barricades to handle it, because I don't think we have that many barricades--I don't think that many barricades would be available for a motorcade as long as this one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the police department maintain barricades?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; the barricades are obtained from the public works department. We have been able to request barricades to barricade off streets at certain events on holidays and parks. We have asked for barricades and we have always received barricades.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give any specific instructions to your men with respect to watching windows?

Captain LAWRENCE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give any specific instructions to the people who were stationed along Elm and Houston at the intersection of Elm and Houston, the man at Houston in particular, did you direct any particular attention to those men who were stationed there?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not make the individual assignments, but as I said, the only thing I did was make these remarks as to these particular assignments in stating that they would be made by these officers, and, of course, there were some assignments made in this area and there were also some assignments made to the overpass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that would be in the general orders or the general background and training of the police officers who were stationed along this route which would make the individual police officer believe that it was his responsibility to watch the windows of buildings?

Captain LAWRENCE. I don't recall any specific instructions of that kind ever being given on an assignment of this type, because--again--as I said, with the manpower that was assigned and the crowd they had to control, that the officer had all he could take care of in maintaining crowd control of the people on the streets and watching the crowd there.

I am talking about the men that were assigned for these specific assignments here. I assume that some instructions have been given to some members of the CID, the criminal investigation division, and to the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. It would be my assumption that this was a part of the assignments given.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the duties of the men at the intersections be so burdensome prior to the time that the motorcade actually arrived that they couldn't keep their eyes on the windows and other places such as that? In other words, did they have anything to do of substance until shortly before the motorcade arrived?

Captain LAWRENCE. They had everything they could do to take care of the crowds when I came through there before the President's motorcade--keeping the crowds back, in fact, when I was listening on channel 2 I heard Inspector Sawyer asking for more help for men downtown to try to keep the crowds back so the motorcade could get through there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When an officer is at an intersection for the purpose of crowd control, do his problems begin as soon as the crowd begins to form, regardless of how long it is before the President is going to arrive, or does the problem only become a substantial one when he realizes the President is 5 minutes away?

Captain LAWRENCE. I think when he first goes on assignment, that's when he's prepared to handle the crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there a danger that the crowd is going to move out into the street at any point as soon as it gets large enough where the people start to push and shove?

Captain LAWRENCE. This did happen in the downtown area and this was substantially before the President's car actually arrived. This is why, I believe, and I am assuming, because I was ahead of this motorcade, but I heard Chief Curry ask these motorcycle officers that were way up ahead to drop back, and some of them that were alongside and to the rear of the President, to pull up alongside his car, and Chief Curry had some of these motorcycle officers that were supposed to be about a couple of blocks ahead of this motorcade, he asked them to drop back. He asked the lead motorcycles that were supposed to be a half block ahead of the escort--he asked them to drop back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it fair to say that without specific instructions, that an officer would not watch the windows of buildings? He would not do it as a result of routine orders that prevail in the police department and his general training.

Captain LAWRENCE. I would say in a case like this that an officer should do this and this should be part of his responsibility on the job, but I also have to say he was not given any specific instructions to do that as far as buildings were concerned, but I'm talking about the men assigned to this traffic assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other specific instructions besides watching the windows of buildings that, as a result of your experience on November 22, you think should be given to police officers who have traffic assignments?

Captain LAWRENCE. As a result of what happened on November 22, I believe that where a Head of State, the President of the United States, comes to Dallas and is in a motorcade or a parade, that the streets should be barricaded or roped off and that officers--more officers than were stationed be stationed along the route to control the crowd. I mean, of course, this is looking back--as I told you before--there were more people along the route--in fact, I was surprised--they had even stopped their cars all along Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we are trying to benefit from hindsight, when I asked you if in looking back you could make some suggestions for the future.

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could a police force the size of the Dallas police force have found more officers to man the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. With a route as long as this, I doubt that they could have, because some of these officers were given second and third assignments and this motorcade route, as long as it was, was in my opinion--this was too long of a motorcade route to give the proper security, and our department wasn't big enough to handle an event--of course, this is hindsight again--and an event like this with a route as long as this to cover all of the cross streets, because we certainly didn't cover all of the cross streets along the route except the downtown area. We covered some of the main ones and there were other streets that were not covered and the people themselves block the streets for the motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have with you here a list of the assignments you made on November 22?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you give that to us so we can mark it for identification?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir; would you mind me explaining a couple of them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; not at all, if you think it is necessary.

Captain LAWRENCE. There were some changes made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark this as Capt. W. P. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 2. Do you want to indicate what clarification you would make in the assignments that are shown on Exhibit No. 2?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the morning of November 22, the streets were still wet and it was raining that morning and I talked to Asst. Chief Batchelor about some of the motorcade assignments and he agreed with me that no car, no motorcycle officer, should pass the President's car, so we reassigned some officers indicated by asterisks on this detail to cover the Stemmons Freeway traffic lanes to the rear of the escort to prevent any vehicles from passing the presidental party, and that's shown on the detail. Also, as I say--you can see the asterisks here beside these officers and they were changed. Also, I felt that because of the curvature of Stemmons Freeway and these people coming over a crest and around a curve--that they would be on top of these motorcycle officers and would not have warning enough. I discussed placing a couple of the three-wheel motorcycle officers up further on Stemmons Expressway, which would be back farther south, so that when they saw from the top of Stemmons Expressway this motorcade approaching, they could start stopping the traffic before it came around the curve and down the hill because of the speed. For this reason, two officers were stationed--their assignment was changed and they were placed--they were stationed up on Stemmons Freeway for the purpose of starting to stop this traffic themselves.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else on there that you think should be clarified?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening--I'm going back a day, but on the evening of November 21, I was handed a list of additional men from the Third Patrol Platoon to work traffic assignments. Here is the list--you can have this list.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Captain LAWRENCE. This necessitated me making some changes so that the three-wheel motorcycle officers could be taken off of corner assignments and placed on patrol assignments in the downtown area, and those assignments, or some of those patrol assignments are shown on the last page of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Captain LAWRENCE. The changes you can see were made in ink. There was one particular assignment, on page 3, that we had eliminated because we understood that the Highland Park Police would cover Lemmon and Loma Alto and then when these additional men were given to us, two officers were placed back on this assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked the additional list of 19 men, which list you received on November 22, as Capt. P. W. Lawrence, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 3. Let me ask you some specific questions about it--about the men who were stationed in the area of Dealey Plaza. Did you question any of these men after the President was shot to determine whether or not they had seen anyone in the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; however, when I questioned the men--the men had already been--one man that I questioned had already been questioned by Mr. Sorrels and this would be Officer J. E. Murphy and two other men that I questioned were Officers J. W. Foster and J. C. White. I questioned J. W. Foster regarding the men that were alongside him on the overpass, on the triple underpass where the President was to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Sergeant Harkness?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I didn't question Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer King--W. K. King?

Captain LAWRENCE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer J. B. Allen?

Captain LAWRENCE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you question Officer W. H. Denham?

Captain LAWRENCE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Officer W. E. Barnett?

Captain LAWRENCE. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer J. M. Smith?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Officer E. L. Smith?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anyone in the police department who questioned those men after the assassination to determine whether or not they had been observing the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building and had seen anybody in those buildings?

Captain LAWRENCE. I know that all of these men have been questioned and that they were calling all of these men to be questioned and that this investigation was being handled by the Secret Service, and this is one reason why I did not question these men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you received any information that any of these men did see anybody at the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building, particularly on the sixth floor?

Captain LAWRENCE. I have never received any information from any of these men that they saw anybody up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have answered that you did not conduct an investigation of these men and that you thought the Secret Service did; let me ask the further question--has the police department conducted an investigation of these men who were at the intersections of Main and Houston and Elm and Houston?

Captain LAWRENCE. To my knowledge, they were--there was an investigation requested.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the police department?

Captain LAWRENCE. By the police department--that reports were requested from these men, by the supervisory officers, but--and by the inspectors and the deputy chiefs--but I was not given any such assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me turn to the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald and ask you when did you first receive instructions as to the moving of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail?

Captain LAWRENCE. I received no original instructions on the movement of Lee Harvey Oswald. I was scheduled to be off on Saturday and Sunday. These were my days off. On Saturday at approximately 10 a.m., I came down in civilian clothes and I observed a large crowd of people around the county courthouse and I had knowledge from what I had heard on television and I had seen on television and heard on the radio that charges had already been filed against Lee Harvey Oswald, so it was my assumption that he would be transferred to the county jail, but I had no knowledge of it; and seeing this large crowd gathering down at this part of town, I immediately called the traffic office and started trying to contact Sergeant Harkness and finally got him down there and told him to get some other traffic officers down there and I remained down at this location until approximately 6:30 p.m. when Captain Thompson came on duty. While down there and during the afternoon, I noticed there was a large crowd gathered and there seemed to be a need for barricades or ropes or something to keep these people behind these ropes and across the street from the county jail, and I called Chief Batchelor's office, and Officer Art Hammett answered the phone and I told Art Hammett there was a large crowd down there, and this was early in the afternoon--I would say about 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon on Saturday--and there was a large crowd there and I believe that ropes or barricades were necessary to keep these people out of the streets and across the street at Dealey Plaza, and Hammett said he would try to get in touch with Chief Batchelor and let me know.

On Saturday afternoon I got a call on the radio, and, of course, it was a three-wheel motorcycle with the radio going, and Officer Hammett asked me and I am assuming he was in the dispatcher's office at the time, and he asked me if the ropes that I requested were to block off the street for motor vehicle traffic and I told him it was not, and he said, "Well, permission is granted." Then, we borrowed some rope from the sheriff's office and we roped off this block across the street from the county jail. We also got some barricades from Elm and Houston where a--where part of the street had been blocked off there anyway, and we blocked off the sidewalks on the county jail side--at Houston and Elm Street, and Main Street, and the only persons we allowed in this area were television, radio, and news media people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take any further precautions on Sunday?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes. By the way, when Captain Thompson came on, I contacted him by radio and asked him to meet me down there and he relieved me and our solo motorcycle detail was placed down there in the evening. When I got home I called Chief Lunday at home and I told him--that's when I heard that the transfer was supposed to be made the following morning, that there would be a need for some more men down there and that I would be down there and I would get as many men as I could on the location. So on Sunday morning I arrived down there and I'm going to guess at the time as approximately 8 a.m. I first went by the office and I picked up some police reserves in my car and took about four of them down there with me, and then I had some motorcycle officers that were not already stationed--upstairs on the third floor--and I had them meet me down there too. It was still roped off and the crowds started gathering and I personally instructed Sergeant Steigel to go down there and Sergeant Bellah, and most of the men down there, I personally instructed them that when Oswald was brought in down there, that they were not to look at Oswald, that they were to face the crowd and they were not to worry about anything but keeping their eyes on that crowd, because I estimated there were approximately 500 people down there at that time, and these officers were specifically instructed on that. And when Chief Lunday showed up at approximately--sometime between 9:30 and 10, he showed up--he arrived in civilian clothes--he saw that there was a large crowd there too and we were concerned about the security of Oswald, and I expressed this opinion to Chief Lunday and Lieutenant Southard also. There with me at the time too was Captain Solomon, who also showed up down there. The only time that I knew that anything had happened was when Sheriff Bill Decker came out of his office and came by the cameras there where the vehicle was supposed to enter the county jail entrance there, and he waved for me to come over to him. I was across the street at that time and he told me that Oswald had been shot in the basement of the city hall. So, after this was confirmed, we then sent some more men to Parkland Hospital to seal it off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with the stationing of men along the route that it was expected that Oswald was to follow?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I didn't.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any specific instructions from any of your superiors on stationing your men around Dealey Plaza or the county jail or did the precautions that you took--were they undertaken on your own initiative?

Captain LAWRENCE. I would say that I notified Chief Lunday of the situation down there and then he told me to go ahead and station these men there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there never was any independent effort made by your superior officers to contact you prior to the move and say, "Captain Lawrence, we are going to move Oswald at such and such a time, or in such and such a way, and take such and such precautions"?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I believe though that Chief Lunday was in communication with headquarters because he went immediately after he talked to Lieutenant Southard and I and saw this crowd too, he immediately went inside the sheriff's office and it is my assumption that he had communication with them because he came out a little later and told me about the plans--how Oswald was to be brought down and that he would not be brought down in the armored truck, but that the armored truck would come Elm Street and would make a left turn off of Elm, and when it did, this car with the detectives in it would come first and the car with Oswald would turn into the ramp there at the county jail and they would lower the gates immediately. At that time Chief Lunday was in charge down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you informed of this plan to bring Oswald in a police car; how long before you actually knew Oswald was shot did you learn about that plan?

Captain LAWRENCE. I would say approximately 10 minutes--I'm just guessing--I know it was just shortly after that that I heard he was shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed that the armored car had arrived at the police station?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had no knowledge of an armored car until Chief Lunday told me about it and at the same time he was telling me about it, a sergeant arrived down there from the radio patrol and was giving Chief Lunday some information to the same effect, that the armored car was going to be used as a decoy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But maybe I didn't make my question clear--was any information ever passed on to the people at the county jail that the decoy car had arrived in the city basement?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. I was outside all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have pretty well covered everything here. I'm going to ask you if you will sign Exhibit No. 1 and also Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3.

Captain LAWRENCE. This man did not show up and he was given some other assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the No. 3 man there on that list?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; he was given some other assignment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark one more paper here--this is a copy of a letter that you wrote.

Captain LAWRENCE. That's a copy of a letter that I wrote that you probably have in the file there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a letter you wrote to Chief Curry on July 15 detailing what you did on November 22, and I am going to mark it Capt. P. W. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, and I will ask you if you will sign that up at the top also. Do you have anything else, captain, you would like to add?

Captain LAWRENCE. Oh, I guess this probably has been mentioned to you before--there are some people that were down there--Captain Solomon and I discussed the fact that we were rather shocked at the crowd that was down there when they announced that Oswald--when they heard that Oswald had been shot--about them cheering, but this was an actual fact, and I thought it was a terrible thing myself, it broke me up too, this killing of the President, but as I said, this was a real shock that these people cheered like this. This just showed the attitude of some of them that were down there. I can't think of anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and taking this time. All of the members of your department who have been here have really given very generously of their time and cooperated and we are all very appreciative of it.

Captain LAWRENCE. I did learn of some new security measures from this unfortunate experience. I refer to the manner in which the Secret Service handled the transfer of President Johnson and his party from Parkland Hospital, the plans for this transfer in unmarked cars, the solo escorts and positioning of the vehicles en route to Love Field. First, the Secret Service personnel made arrangements for three unmarked cars to be placed in a "ready" position at the rear of Parkland without the knowledge of the news media or other persons. Three cars were so arranged. The first car was Chief Curry's unmarked car, the second car was my unmarked car, and the third car was Inspector Putnam's unmarked car. I was instructed to have two solo officers ready to go but not to give them their destination until we started to leave--these instructions were from the Secret Service. When President Johnson came out of the hospital with his party he was immediately taken to Chief Curry's lead vehicle. Other White House and Secret Service personnel got in my car, as they did in Inspector Putnam's car. I instructed the solo officers to escort us to Love Field. As we left Parkland Hospital the solo officers started using their sirens and shortly thereafter Chief Curry came on the police radio and requested them to cut the sirens off. Chief Curry repeated these instructions about three or four times and after several blocks the officers cut off their sirens. One of the Secret Service men in my vehicle instructed me as to how to position my vehicle to the rear of Chief Curry's car and I also noticed in the rear view mirror that Inspector Putnam's vehicle was positioned in such a way that it would be difficult for any other car to overtake this escort. After the solo motorcycle officers cut off their sirens they went ahead and stopped traffic at various intersections so that it was not necessary for any of the cars in President Johnson's party to stop. I was quite impressed with the quick efficient planning of the Secret Service in getting the President and his party safely to the airport and the security precautions taken while en route to Love Field. You know--this thing--something like this, this just really hits you. You are so busy you don't know it, but it just finally really hits you down deep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There's not very much I guess really that can be said--it's one of these events that is so shocking in our lifetime.

Captain LAWRENCE. Too--Chief Curry was really torn up about it--out at Parkland Hospital he held himself real good--I guess we all were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we all were. Thank you very much for coming.

Captain LAWRENCE. Thank you.

AFFIDAVIT OF RONALD G. WITTMUS

The following affidavit was executed by Ronald G. Wittmus on July 30, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Ronald G. Wittmus, have reviewed the testimony of Sebastian Francis Latona before The President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein.

I have conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of Mr. Latona's testimony and on the basis of these independent examinations I reached the same conclusions reached by Sebastian Francis Latona.

Signed this 30th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C.

(S) Ronald G. Wittmus, RONALD G. WITTMUS.

AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS J. KELLEY

The following affidavit was executed by Thomas J. Kelley on July 30, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Thomas J. Kelley, being duly sworn say:

1. I am an Inspector in the United States Secret Service assigned to Secret Service Headquarters in Washington, D.C.

2. On November 24, 1963, I attended the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas Police Station. Those present included: Captain Fritz; Forrest Sorrels of the United States Secret Service; Postal Inspector Harry Holmes; and several Dallas Police Officers.

3. It is my recollection that during this interrogation, Oswald was not asked about nor did he speak of a trip that he took to Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba.

Signed this 30th day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C.

(S) Thomas J. Kelley, THOMAS J. KELLEY.

AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT A. FRAZIER

The following affidavit was executed by Robert A. Frazier on July 31, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, before the President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein.

I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same conclusions reached by Mr. Cunningham.

Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C.

(S) Robert A. Frazier, ROBERT A. FRAZIER.

AFFIDAVIT OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

The following affidavit was executed by Cortlandt Cunningham on July 31, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Cortlandt Cunningham, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies of Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, before the President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein.

I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of Mr. Frazier's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier.

Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C.

(S) Cortlandt Cunningham, CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM.

AFFIDAVIT OF CHARLES L. KILLION

The following affidavit was executed by Charles L. Killion on July 31, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Charles L. Killion, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, do hereby state that I have reviewed the testimonies of Robert A. Frazier on March 31 and May 13, 1964, and testimonies of Cortlandt Cunningham on March 11 and April 1, 1964, before the President's Commission on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and I agree with the conclusions stated therein.

I do hereby state that I conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of Mr. Cunningham's and Mr. Frazier's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, I reached the same conclusions reached by Mr. Frazier and Mr. Cunningham.

Signed this 31st day of July 1964, at Washington, D.C.

(S) Charles L. Killion, CHARLES L. KILLION.

AFFIDAVIT OF ROY SANSOM TRULY

The following affidavit was executed by Roy Sansom Truly on August 3, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

I, Roy Sansom Truly, being duly sworn say:

1. I am the Superintendent of the Texas School Book Depository Building in Dallas, Texas.

2. The door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door.

Signed this 3d day of August 1964, at Dallas Tex.

(S) Roy Sansom Truly, ROY SANSOM TRULY.

AFFIDAVIT OF FORREST V. SORRELS

The following affidavit was executed by Forrest V. Sorrels on August 6, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

I, Forrest V. Sorrels, being duly sworn say:

1. I am the Special Agent in Charge of the Dallas district of the United States Secret Service.

2. On November 24, 1963, I attended the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald in the Dallas Police Station. Those present included: Captain Fritz; Thomas J. Kelley, Inspector of the United States Secret Service; Postal Inspector Harry Holmes; and several Dallas City Detectives.

3. I do not recall that during this interrogation Oswald being questioned about or him making statements about a trip that he took to Mexico or plans that he had to go to Cuba.

Signed this 6th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex.

(S) Forrest V. Sorrels, FORREST V. SORRELS.

AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN JOE HOWLETT

The following affidavit was executed by John Joe Howlett on August 11, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

I, John Joe Howlett, being duly sworn say:

1. I am an agent in the Dallas office of the United States Secret Service.

2. On March 20, 1964, counsel to the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy timed me as I walked from the southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom by the stairway in the Texas School Book Depository Building.

3. During this test, I carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor northerly along the east aisle to the northeast corner, then westerly along the north wall past the elevators to the northwest corner. There I placed the rifle on the floor. I then entered the stairwell, walked down the stairway to the second floor landing, and then into the lunchroom.

4. After the second test which was run at a "fast walk," I was not short-winded.

Signed this 11th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex.

(S) John Joe Howlett, JOHN JOE HOWLETT.

AFFIDAVIT OF MARRION L. BAKER

The following affidavit was executed by Marrion L. Baker on August 11, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

I, Marrion L. Baker, being duly sworn say:

1. I am an officer in the Dallas Police Department.

2. On November 22, 1963, upon hearing shots I rode my motorcycle 180 to 200 feet, parked the motorcycle, and ran 45 feet to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

3. On March 20, 1964, counsel from the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions after hearing the shots on November 22, 1963. During this re-enactment, I reached the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository Building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot.

Signed this 13th day of August 1964, at Dallas, Tex.

(S) Marrion L. Baker, MARRION L. BAKER.

AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT BROCK

The following affidavit was executed by Robert Brock on August 5, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

I, Robert Brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows:

I now reside at 3519 30th Street, Lubbock, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was residing at 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was interviewed by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

I have been shown the written report[C] of the results of my interview with Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, 1963.

Signed this 5th day of August 1964.

(S) Robert Brock, ROBERT BROCK.

[C] This report was labeled Robert Brock Exhibit A.

AFFIDAVIT OF MARY BROCK

The following affidavit was executed by Mary Brock on August 5, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

I, Mary Brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows:

I now reside at 3519 30th Street, Lubbock, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was residing at 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was interviewed by Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

I have been shown the written report[D] of the results of my interview with Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, 1963.

Signed this 5th day of August 1964.

(S) Mary Brock, MARY BROCK.

[D] This report was labeled Mary Brock Exhibit A.

AFFIDAVIT OF HAROLD RUSSELL

The following affidavit was executed by Harold Russell on August 10, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

I, Harold Russell, being duly sworn, depose as follows:

I now reside at U.S. Highway 77 S., Davis, Okla. On January 21, 1964, I was residing at on North Clinton, Dallas, Texas, and was employed as a salesman by Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 East Jefferson, Dallas, Texas. On January 21, 1964, I was interviewed by Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to Lee Harvey Oswald, the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit, and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

I have been shown the written report[E] of the results of the interview by Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on January 21, 1964. I have read this written report and it represents a correct report of what I saw on November 22, 1963.

Signed this 10th day of August 1964.

(S) Harold Russell, HAROLD RUSSELL.

[E] This report was labeled Russell Exhibit A.

AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID GOLDSTEIN

The following affidavit was executed by David Goldstein on August 13, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

I, David Goldstein, 6111 Averill Way, Apartment D, Dallas, Tex., being duly sworn say:

1. I am and have been for several years owner of Dave's House of Guns, 2544 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas.

2. Dave's House of Guns has handled Smith and Wesson .38/200 British Service Revolvers. Within ten days after the assassination of President Kennedy, F.B.I. agents called on me to determine if Dave's House of Guns had any record of handling a Smith and Wesson .38/200 British Service Revolver, serial number V 510210 and assembly number 65248. We had no such record.

3. After being shown a photograph of the above gun, I showed the F.B.I. agents a catalog which listed such guns and indicated that they were handled by George Rose and Company, Inc., 1225 South Grand Avenue, Los Angeles, California.

Signed this 13th day of August 1964.

(S) David Goldstein, DAVID GOLDSTEIN.

Transcriber's Notes:

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source.

"Air Force 1" usually is in italics, but in a few instances was printed upright as "Air Force I".

Page 153: "Mr. Dhority. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup." probably was asked by Mr. Ball, not stated by Mr. Dhority.

Page 160: "I could have heard, that" has misprinted comma after "heard".

Page 163: "we we still" probably is misprint for "we were still".

Page 195: "he had make a snapshot" is misprint for "made".

Page 247: "until my discharge in 1944" was printed that way, but is inconsistent with being after World War II.

Page 260: "Will you state you name" is misprint for "your".

Page 263: "running, from the scene" has misprinted comma after "running".

Page 272: "I took here into the" is misprint for "her".

Page 284: "no bad pressure?" is misprint for "back".

Page 302: "sit and each lunch with him" is misprint for "eat".

Page 326: "raise your right and be sworn" is missing "hand".

Page 333: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Page 359: "Dallas Time Herald Television Station" is misprint for "Times".

Page 422: "in both the know and questioned" is misprint for "known".

Page 457: "deal with an particular" is misprint for "any".

Page 436: "distoration" was printed that way.

Page 539: "that we taken" probably is missing "had".

Spotted a typo or a problem in this chapter? Tell us