Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) (part 5 of 6)

Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) (part 5 of 6)

Mr. EISENBERG. So that for the photograph to be a different photograph, I take it, you would have had to have Oswald line up exactly in the same position, with his elbows and torso in precisely the same relative position, with the rifle at precisely the same relative height and in precisely the same relative position as it had been in previously, with the lighting casting the exact same shadows, insofar as shadows are visible, and so forth, is that correct?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you found no discrepancies in those items I have just mentioned?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record.

To make the record complete, is there any other possibility, no matter how remote?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; even though it would be extremely remote, it is conceivable that a person could actually make a drawing or painting of a picture exactly like this, that when reproduced in a newspaper or publication with its loss of detail would resemble Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, in the same manner that this picture or this reproduction resembles Exhibit No. 133-A.

Mr. EISENBERG. "This reproduction" being which, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Either Exhibit No. 4, or Exhibit No. 5, Exhibit No. 2, any of the magazine or newspaper reproductions that we have discussed.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are not talking about Commission Exhibit No. 133-A itself, which you testified to earlier?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No, no.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you see any evidence of this, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; I do not, and I think it is in the realm of unreasonable doubt and it is highly improbable.

Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5, could you describe the apparent retouching in that exhibit?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there is airbrushing in the background area that shows beside the right shoulder of Oswald, where the tree that shows in Exhibit No. 1 has been airbrushed out to a darkened area. There have been highlights added to the rifle, a straight highlight along the top of the stock, running from the butt of the stock to the bolt, a bright highlight along the butt of the stock.

There has been rather elaborate retouching around the bolt area or breech area of the rifle. The highlight that appears in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1 along the bolt of the gun, which appears as a broken line or two segments of a line or highlight, appears in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 5 as a broken line very much like the actual highlight in the photograph which is Exhibit No. 1.

There has been a highlight added parallel to that, along the bottom of or just below that area in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 5, which does not appear in Exhibit No. 1.

The top of the rifle has been emphasized with a strong highlight, and the highlight in the reproduction of Exhibit No. 5 along the top of the rifle does not conform to the actual top of the rifle as it can be seen in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 1.

There are some other highlights added above that, that are rather unexplainable but may be highlights relative to the lower portion of the scope.

Also a highlight has been added along the top of the barrel between Oswald's left hand and where the barrel extends past his left shoulder.

There has been some retouching added around the pistol on the right hip of Oswald, and around the holster. These are the primary points that have been retouched.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, does this photograph, Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5, more closely resemble the Detroit Free Press photograph, which is Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4, or the Life photographs, Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It corresponds to the reproduction in the Detroit Free Press, Exhibit No. 4, and not as well to the reproduction on Exhibit No. 2, which is the Life magazine. In fact, the reproductions on Exhibits Nos. 4 and No. 5 both have two white specks along the right leg between the knee and the right foot, centrally located in that area one above the other, that do not appear in the original photograph, which is Commission Exhibit 133-A, and do not appear in the Life magazine reproduction on either Exhibit No. 2 or 3. This would indicate to me that these two photographs may have originated from the same basic source or basic print.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in fact, the credit under Shaneyfelt No. 5 says, "Copyright 1964, Detroit Free Press," is that correct?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. But is the picture identical in all respects to the Detroit Free Press picture?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; the retouching, particularly around the breech of the rifle in Exhibit No. 5, which is the Newsweek reproduction, is different than the retouching on the reproduction in Exhibit No. 4, the Detroit Free Press.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does the reproduction around the breech, that is, just below Oswald's left hand, correspond to anything you have ever seen on a rifle, Mr. Shaneyfelt--that is, the four or five roughly parallel lines?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; it doesn't correspond to anything that I recall having seen on a rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. What do you think the genesis of all those lines would be?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe that they are possibly the artist's interpretation of how the rifle may have looked in that area, since the photograph being retouched was indistinct in that area.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you say that would be likely to have been done by a person not familiar with rifles?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is a possibility, but I wouldn't be able to state that with any degree of certainty. That is one possibility.

Mr. EISENBERG. I also see that Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 has an arrow pointing to the revolver, which is not present in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5, is that correct?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 5 differs from Exhibit No. 4, although it seems to be substantially similar, and in fact Newsweek credits its photo to the Detroit Free Press, which is the Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 4 picture?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I would attribute these differences to the differences in retouching. Since it would be normal procedure in publications of this type for each publication to do its own retouching for its own reproductions, they would normally receive the picture in an unretouched condition from whatever source is available, such as the Associated Press, or, as in Exhibit No. 3, the credit to the Detroit Free Press, and after receiving the unretouched photograph, would then add the retouching that they desired to have on the photo before making the halftone reproduction.

Mr. EISENBERG. The area to the right of Oswald's shoulder and head, that is, to the left of the shoulder and head as we look at the picture, appears to be retouched or airbrushed out in the same way in both pictures. Would that be your conclusion?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; with one exception, that while the airbrushing is generally similar, it appears in the Detroit Free Press, which is Exhibit No. 4, as a light area against a black shirt, while in Newsweek, Exhibit No. 5, it appears as a black area against a rather dark shirt, with a light highlight added along the shoulder to make the area stand out against the background.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is it your conclusion, then, that two separate retouchings were done to accomplish that effect, one retouching by the Newsweek people and one retouching by the Detroit Free Press people?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. I have no foundation on which to base a positive statement in that regard, but this is suggested by the variations that are present.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that the presence of that same feature as a retouch in both photographs might be coincidental, or at least might not have been done by the same person?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And in your mind that similarity of feature does not preclude the possibility that a completely unretouched photo was submitted by the Detroit Free Press to Newsweek?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you page 30 of the New York Times, issue of February 19, 1964, which again contains a photograph similar to those you have been testifying as to--and which page I have marked Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 6--and I ask you whether you have examined that photograph?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what is your conclusion concerning that photograph, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. I found this to be generally similar in all visible characteristics to the photograph which is Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, and found no differences to suggest that it is other than the same photograph as Exhibit No. 133-A. However, the lack of detail in the halftone reproduction on Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 6 precludes a positive identification with Commission Exhibit No. 133-A.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you see any retouching in this photograph, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, I do.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. In the photograph reproduced on Exhibit No. 6 this is retouched along the right shoulder and to the right side of the face of Oswald. In this instance, that has been put in in a solid medium gray, to make it appear as the extension of the building or the fence that appears in the background of the original photograph.

There is retouching around the rifle stock--in fact, the stock itself seems to have been lightened all along the lower portion near the butt; a highlight along the top has been retouched along the top from the butt to the breech; some retouching along the butt of the stock, and also along the bottom edge of the stock, running upward toward the trigger.

The highlight that appears in Exhibit No. 1 along the bolt as a two-section highlight or a broken highlight appears in this same general area on the gun in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 6 as a solid highlight and one continuous line. There has been a highlight added along the bottom of the gun just forward of the trigger guard and just below Oswald's left hand. Also a highlight has been added along the top of the gun above Oswald's left hand to show the gun as apart from the dark shirt, so that the gun and shirt do not blend into one continuous tone at that point. There appears to be some retouching of Oswald's shadow, in that it has been toned down to a medium gray shadow so that it will not blend into the lower portion of his legs.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which of the reproductions which you have so far examined does this most resemble, Mr. Shaneyfelt: the Detroit Free Press, the Life, or the Newsweek reproduction?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This corresponds to both the Detroit Free Press and the Newsweek reproductions of the photograph, in that it contains the two white dots along the right leg, centrally located between the ankle and the knee as they appear in those two reproductions, and, therefore, may be derived from the same basic print, since this characteristic does not appear in Commission Exhibit No. 133-A or in the Life magazine reproductions on Shaneyfelt Exhibits Nos. 2 and 3.

Mr. EISENBERG. What about the retouching in the New York Times photograph, Mr. Shaneyfelt, how does that compare with the retouching in the Detroit Free Press and Newsweek photographs?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. The retouching is different from any of the other Exhibits Nos. 4 and 5.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you conclude, therefore, that the New York Times, like Newsweek, may have received from its source an unretouched photograph which it proceeded to retouch?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that again the similarity in retouching to the upper right of Oswald's shoulder and head might be coincidental?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; actually, there is considerable difference in the retouching in that area on the New York Times photograph as compared to the Newsweek and Detroit Free Press exhibits. The New York Times has attempted to make it appear as a wall, whereas the other two have merely airbrushed out the line, and it looks like foliage.

Mr. EISENBERG. The stock in all three of these photographs, that is, Detroit Free Press, Newsweek, and New York Times, has also been retouched in a similar manner, that is, so that the top of the stock appears straight, whereas actually the top of the stock is curved--is that correct?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. What do you think accounts for the coincidence of the retouching in these two areas--that is, the top of the stock and the area to the upper right of Oswald's shoulder--given the differences you have noted in the details of retouching?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. I would attribute that to a lack of detail in the photographs that they had, and a lack of understanding of the formation of a normal rifle stock on the part of the retoucher.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Shaneyfelt, I hand you the front page of the New York Journal-American, issue of February 18, 1964, which again contains a photograph similar to those you have been discussing, and which I have labeled Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 7, and ask you whether you have examined that photograph?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my conclusion that this photograph is the same in all visible characteristics as the photograph which is Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, and I found no differences that would suggest that it is other than the same photograph. However, because of the lack of detail in the reproduction on Exhibit No. 7, it is not possible to positively identify it as the same photograph.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is retouching apparent in this photograph, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe that in detail?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there has been retouching along the right shoulder of Oswald, and to some degree around the head, in order to have the head and shoulder not blend into the background. This appears to have been done by increasing the highlight or lightening the highlight along the shoulder, rather than darkening the background.

There is a highlight added along the top of the rifle stock that runs quite straight toward the bolt, but it is not as strong a highlight as in the other reproductions we have discussed. There is a highlight along the top of the rifle between Oswald's left hand and the point where the rifle passes his left shoulder. There is a suggestion of some retouching around the rifle scope, which is almost lost in the detail or almost lost against the black shirt, but it is barely visible. There is a dark shadow that appears in Commission Exhibit No. 133-A that has been retouched out of Exhibit No. 7 reproduction, that shadow being about halfway between the knee and the crotch of the trousers between the legs. Those are the primary points of retouching.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which of the various photographs which you have examined does this Journal-American photograph most resemble, Mr. Shaneyfelt?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. The Journal-American photograph reproduction on Exhibit No. 7 is different from the Detroit Free Press, Exhibit No. 4, Newsweek, Exhibit No. 5, and New York Times, Exhibit No. 6, in that the white spots along the right leg between the ankle and the knee do not appear in the reproduction in the Journal-American. It very closely corresponds to the reproduction on the front of the Life magazine, which is Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 2. In fact, the retouching appears to be very nearly the same. The lack of detail in the Newspaper reproduction on Exhibit No. 7 precludes positively saying that it is identical, but it is my feeling that it is probably identical.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point out some of the similarities in retouching?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; the retouching along the top of the rifle stock, the retouching around the right shoulder and around the head, to the right of Oswald's head, the retouching around the top of the rifle above the left hand, the elimination of the shadow between the legs just below the breech of the trousers are the same in both reproductions.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any notable difference between those reproductions, the Life and Journal-American reproductions?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; no notable difference in the retouching.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any opinion as to the source of the Journal-American photograph?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is not possible to positively state, but I note in examining the Journal-American reproduction, which is Exhibit No. 7, that the face area in particular has a design in the light shadow areas which I recognized as being typical of a halftone reproduction made from another halftone reproduction. And because of the presence of this characteristic in the shadow area of the face, and the manner in which the photograph is cropped or trimmed, I am of the opinion that it is highly possible that the reproduction in the Journal-American, Exhibit No. 7, was made from a Life magazine cover, issue of February 21, 1964, containing the reproduction of the photograph of Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you elaborate on your statement that the cropping is a factor in leading to this conclusion?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; on Exhibit No. 2, which is the Life magazine cover, if a straight line is drawn vertically past the right edge of the Life sign on the front of the magazine, so that the sign is blocked out, and that straight line is continued through a shadow area comparable to the shadow in the reproduction of Exhibit No. 7, the cropping along that edge of the photograph then becomes identical to the cropping on the Journal-American photograph. This would suggest that the picture was purposely cropped in that manner to eliminate the Life magazine printing in the upper left-hand corner of the magazine cover.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does the Life magazine picture, and also the Journal-American picture, show cropping as against the original, that is, Exhibit No. 133-A?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. The Life magazine photograph does not show all of the photograph that appears on Commission Exhibit No. 133-A, the photograph having been cropped down closer to the head, cutting out some of the overhead area. There has also been considerable cropping on both the right and left margins, when you compare the Life magazine and Journal-American reproductions with Exhibit No. 133-A.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any other feature on the Journal-American photograph which leads you to conclude that it was taken from the Life photograph?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; in the lower right-hand corner of the Life magazine cover, Exhibit No. 2, there is a strip set in, containing the printing "February 21, 1964, 25 cents." If the Journal-American did, in fact, reproduce this picture from a Life cover, it would have been necessary for them to retouch out this strip of printing in the lower right-hand corner of the Life magazine cover, and I find on examination of the reproduction on the Journal-American that there is retouching in this area. The background of the grass is inconsistent, in that it has been darkened around that area, and there is also darkening along the foot and leg, and the shadow area has been altered in between the two feet in a manner to strongly suggest that this strip has been retouched out in order to make the reproduction on the Journal-American, Exhibit No. 7.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Shaneyfelt, do you have anything to add to your testimony?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. I believe not.

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, thank you very much then. That will be all.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES C. CADIGAN

The testimony of James C. Cadigan was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 30, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

(The oath was administered by the reporter.)

Mr. CADIGAN. I do.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, the purpose for which we are here is to go into the facts of the assassination of President Kennedy, and in particular we have asked you to testify concerning analysis of questioned documents. Mr. Cadigan, could you state your full name and your position?

Mr. CADIGAN. James C. Cadigan. I am a special agent of the FBI, assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the FBI laboratory in Washington, D.C.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how long have you been in this field, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. Twenty-three and one-half years.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your training in this field?

Mr. CADIGAN. Upon being assigned to the laboratory I was given a specialized course of training and instruction which consisted of attending various lectures and conferences on the subject, reading books, and working under the direction of experienced examiners.

Upon attaining a required degree of proficiency, I was assigned cases on my own responsibility, and since that time I have examined many thousands of cases involving handwriting, hand printing, typewriting, forgeries, erasures, alterations, mechanical devices of all types, pens, paper, and ink. I conduct research on various problems as they arise and assist in the training of our new examiners.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you testified in Federal or other courts, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; in many Federal and State courts, and military courts-martial.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 773, and I ask you whether you have examined that item.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that consists of an application to purchase a rifle, addressed to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm labeled D-77, and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of microfilm?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I am.

Mr. EISENBERG. That microfilm will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.

(The article referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, was Exhibit No. 773 developed from a negative contained in Cadigan Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it was printed from that roll.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 780, consisting of the Marine Corps file of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 778, consisting of two letters extracted from Oswald's State Department file; Commission Exhibit No. 781, consisting of a passport application by Lee Harvey Oswald, dated June 25, 1963--at least "Passport Issued June 25, 1963"; and Cadigan Exhibit No. 2, consisting of a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to John B. Connally, then Secretary of the Navy.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 2.)

Mr. CADIGAN. This is in two parts.

Mr. EISENBERG. In two parts, and the second part consists of a letter from Lee Harvey Oswald to a Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins, dated 7 March 1962, and a group of documents, comprising photographs of the balance of Lee Harvey Oswald's State Department file, labeled Cadigan Exhibit No. 3.

(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3.)

Mr. EISENBERG. I ask you whether you have examined these various items.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, can you explain the meaning of the term standard or "known documents" as used in the field of questioned-document examination?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Known standards are samples of writings of an individual which are known to be in his writing and which are available for comparison with questioned or suspect writings.

Mr. EISENBERG. You have examined certain questioned writings allegedly prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald, have you, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. In your examination, what documents did you use as known documents?

Mr. CADIGAN. Cadigan Exhibit No. 2, Commission Exhibit No. 781, Commission Exhibit No. 778, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, and Commission Exhibit No. 780.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, during the balance of the examination I will refer to these documents collectively as the known or standard writings. Mr. Cadigan, a portion of the known documents and a portion of the questioned documents are photographs rather than originals; is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you able to identify the handwriting of an individual on the basis of a photograph of that handwriting?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you make an identification, such an identification, if your only questioned document was a photograph if the photograph was sufficiently clear?

Mr. CADIGAN. If the photograph is sufficiently clear, it is adequate for the handwriting comparison.

Mr. EISENBERG. Similarly with standards, if your only standard was a photograph or your only standards were photographs?

Mr. CADIGAN. If your standards were also photographs, it is possible to make the comparison and arrive at a definite opinion.

Mr. EISENBERG. And were the photographs in this case, both the standard and the questioned documents, clear enough to form the basis of an opinion?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. I might point out that some of the known standards are original documents and not photographs.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; I am aware of that, but I wanted to set out on the record whether the standards which are photographs are adequate----

Mr. CADIGAN. They are adequate.

Mr. EISENBERG. To serve as standards.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to Commission Exhibit No. 773, did you compare the handwriting on that exhibit with the writing in the known standards to see if they were written by the same person?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. That the writer of the known standards, Lee Harvey Oswald, prepared the handwriting and hand printing on Commission Exhibit No. 773.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared photographs or charts which you could use to demonstrate the reason for that, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Will you produce them? You are handing me an enlarged photograph of Commission Exhibit No. 773, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. This was prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And constitutes an accurate photograph of Exhibit No. 773?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A.)

And have you prepared photographs of the standards, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. The first photograph is an enlargement of the letter to Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins? Is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 4.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 4.)

Mr. EISENBERG. And the second photograph is an enlargement of a letter from the State Department file, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Enlargement of a letter in the State Department file.

Mr. EISENBERG. In the State Department file?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 5.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 5.)

Mr. EISENBERG. The third is an enlargement of a second letter in the State Department file, the first letter having been dated "Received November 1, 1962," and this letter dated "December 7, 1962, Received December 11, 1962," is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 6.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 6.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a letter to the State Department without an apparent date, beginning, "Dear Sirs: Please forward receipts to me for final payment of my loan" and so forth, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 7.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 7.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Next is another letter from the State Department file, reading, Dear Sirs, please add this $10.00 to my account No. 38210 dated October 8. Is that also from the State Department file, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 8.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 8.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Next is the letter to then Secretary of the Navy John B. Connally and a page from the letter to Brigadier General R. McC. Tompkins, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 9.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 9.)

Mr. EISENBERG. That is in two parts, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it is two pages.

Mr. EISENBERG. Next is a photograph of the passport application referred to earlier?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 10.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 10.)

Mr. EISENBERG. And, finally, a photograph of the reverse side of that?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which will also be Cadigan Exhibit No. 10.

Now, in each case, Mr. Cadigan, were these photographs prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. They were.

Mr. EISENBERG. And are they accurate photographs of the items described as being the subject of the photographs?

Mr. CADIGAN. They are.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cadigan, with reference to your enlargement, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, and your photographs of standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, could you state some of the reasons which led you to the conclusion that Commission Exhibit No. 778, of which Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is an enlargement, is in the writing of Lee Harvey Oswald, the author of the known documents?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; on Commission Exhibit----

Mr. EISENBERG. You can refer to your photographs.

Mr. CADIGAN. The enlarged photograph, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, contains both handwriting and hand printing which was compared with the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. I compared both the handwriting and the hand printing to determine whether or not the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics was present in both the questioned and the known documents. I found many characteristics, some of which I would point out.

On the order blank, in the "A. Hidell" and in the wording "Dallas Texas" which constitutes a part of the return address, the letter "A" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 is made in the same manner as the capital letter "A" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The letter is formed with a short straight stroke beginning about halfway up the left side. The top of it is peaked or pointed. The right side is straight, and is shorter than the initial stroke. The capital letter "D" in Dallas is characterized by a staff or downstroke slanting at about a 30° angle. The lower loop in some instances is closed. In the word "Dallas" the loop is closed, and the body of the letter ends in a rounded loop formation. The same characteristic I found in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, and 6 as well as other exhibits. The word "Texas" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A is characterized with the letter "x" made in an unusual manner in that the writer, after completing the body of the letter, makes an abrupt change of motion to the following letter "a." This same characteristic I observed in the known standard on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 9, and 4.

In the address portion of the envelope, Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, appears the word "Dept." I noticed here, again, the same formation of the capital "D." In addition, the entire word "Dept" appears in the known standards on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. The characteristics I would point out here are in the letter "p" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, where the letter is made with a relatively long narrow staff, and the body of the letter is a rounded shape which projects above the staff. The letter "t" ends abruptly in a downstroke. In the handprinting appearing in the exhibit marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, the wording "Dallas, Texas" contains a number of the same characteristics as Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, where the same wording appears, and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 7 and 8. The writer uses a script-type "D," and prints the other letters in the word "Dallas." The "A" again is made in a similar way to the "A" in "A. Hidell," with a beginning of the downstroke approximately three-quarters of the way up the left side of the stroke. The letter is relatively narrow, and the right-hand side of the letter is straight. In the double "L" combinations there is a curve in the lower portion of the letter. The "S" has a flat top, slanting at approximately a 30-degree angle. In the word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A the writer has used a small "e" following the letter "T." The same characteristics will be noted on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 7, and 8.

Additionally, I noted that in addition to the shape of the letters themselves, the relative heights of the letters, the spacing between the letters, the slant of the letters in both the know and questioned documents are the same.

On Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, in the portion for address, appears the notation "P.O. Box 2915," and this same wording appears on Cadigan Exhibit No. 5, and on No. 7 and No. 8 except for the "P.O." portion. Here, again, I observed the same formation of the individual letters; the spacing, the style, the slant of the writings in both questioned and known were observed to be the same.

The tail of the "5" is made with a relatively long stroke and the same characteristic appears in the known standards. In the hand printed name "A. Hidell," on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A, another characteristic I noted was the very small-sized "i" in the name "Hidell." The writer makes this letter very short in contrast to the other letters in the name. This same characteristic I observed on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, the passport application. With reference to the "i" dot on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the name "Hidell," in the return portion, the dot is relatively high and between the body of the letter and the following letter "d." In the portion of the word "Chicago"--of the name "Chicago"--in the address portion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3, the "i" dot is between the "o" and the "g" in "Chicago" and is well above the line of writing. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 4 I observed the same displacement of the "i" dot. In some instances, it is slightly to the right of the body of the letter, as in the word "citizenship" in the sixth line from the bottom, whereas in the word "direct" in the ninth line from the bottom the "i" dot is displaced one and a half letters to the right.

Based upon the combination of these individual characteristics which I have pointed out, as well as others, I reached the opinion that the handwriting and handprinting on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3-A were written by Lee Harvey Oswald, the writer of the known standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cadigan, the photographs which comprise Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10 are actually somewhat more limited than the standards, in that they represent in some cases excerpts from the standards, is that correct? Such as excerpts from the Marine Corps file?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you refer to the standards, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, do you mean by that that you based your conclusion only on the excerpts shown in Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; the exhibits, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, were merely prepared for demonstration purposes. The original examination and comparison was made using all of the writings, the handwriting and handprinting in the State Department file, the Marine Corps file, the passport application and the two letters, one to Governor Connally and one to Brigadier General Tompkins.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is, the documents which you identified very close to the beginning of the deposition, and which I referred to collectively as the standards?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 788, and ask you if you have examined that exhibit?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, that is the money order which was included with the purchase order to Klein's. Have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 11.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 11.)

Mr. EISENBERG. And this was taken by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And is it an accurate photograph of the money order, Exhibit No. 788?

Mr. CADIGAN. It is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare Exhibit No. 788 with the standards to determine whether Exhibit No. 788 had been written by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. That the postal money order, Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. The postal money order is Commission Exhibit No. 788 and your picture is Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you explain some of the points of identity which led you to the conclusion that you formed?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think that using the wording "Dallas, Texas" appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 839 as an example of some of the handwriting characteristics present on this exhibit----

Mr. EISENBERG. You mean Cadigan Exhibit No. 11?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. In the wording "Dallas, Texas," the writing is quite characteristic. I noted, again, the overall size, spacing, slant, and relative proportions of letters on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 were the same as on Cadigan Exhibit No. 6, and that the letter "D" was characterized on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 with a relatively short staff, with a rather long retrace on the left side of the staff, the body of the letter ending in a large curling stroke. The small letter "a" is rather narrow and somewhat flat. There is a rather long smooth connecting stroke between the "a" and the double letter "l." The "s" is almost triangular in shape, and has no ending stroke or tail to the right.

Further, on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11, in the word "Texas" I noted again the rather unusual shape of the small letter "x," in that it appears almost as though it were a letter "u." The capital letter "T" in "Texas" has a very long curved beginning stroke and a small eyelet or loop in the lower portion of the letter.

I noted these same characteristics on Cadigan Exhibit No. 6 in the wording Dallas, Texas, and certain of the letters on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and the entire word "Texas" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 4.

I noted also, again, that the small letter "p" in the word "sporting" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 was made the same as the "p's" in the known standards as well as on Cadigan Exhibit No. 3 in the word "Dept," in that the staff is long, in the form of a long closed loop, and the upper portion of the letter extends above the staff and the body of the letter is not closed to the staff.

I further noted that on Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 the wording "P.O. Box 2915" contained the same characteristics as the same wording in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, and 7. And here again, based on a combination of personal handwriting characteristics in the entire writing, I reached the opinion that Cadigan Exhibit No. 11 had been written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 135, which, for the record, is an order used for the purchase of the revolver that was apparently used to murder Officer Tippit, and I ask you whether you examined that exhibit.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. And have you taken a photograph of that exhibit?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which you now have before you?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have an enlarged photograph.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that would be Cadigan Exhibit No. 12.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 12.)

Mr. EISENBERG. This was taken by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. It is an accurate photograph of Exhibit No. 135?

Mr. CADIGAN. It is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, did you compare Commission Exhibit No. 135 with the standard or known writings of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion as to the origin of 135?

Mr. CADIGAN. That it was written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. And can you give some of the reasons that led you to form that conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; here again, it is the presence of the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics, both handwriting and handprinting. For example, again the wording "Dallas, Texas," is handprinted on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12, and the same characteristics appear in the same wording on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9, 7, 6, and 8. The formation of the individual letters on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12, the spacing of the letters, the proportions of the letters, were found to be the same as on the known standards.

Additionally, the capital letter "D" in the name "Drittal" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 12 has a rather unusual appearance in the upper portion of the letter in that it is very pointed and wedge-shaped, and I found this same shape present on the reverse side of the passport application on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, page 2 in the word "Dec."

Again, I noted the rather long tail or ending stroke on the number "5" in the address portion of this exhibit. Again, based on finding the same combination of individual handwriting habits in the questioned and known writings, I concluded that Commission Exhibit No. 135 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 791, which, for the record, is an application by Oswald for post office box 2915, dated October 9, 1962, and ask you whether you have examined that exhibit?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 13.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 13.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And is it a true and accurate photograph of 791?

Mr. CADIGAN. It is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 791 had been prepared by the author of the standards, Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. That Lee Harvey Oswald had prepared the hand printing, signature, and date on Commission Exhibit No. 791. This excludes the box number and the wording "Dallas, Tex.," in the lower right portion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you give some of the reasons why you came to that conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the reasons are basically the same, the presence of the same combination of both handwritten and hand printed characteristics in the known and questioned exhibits. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 18 we have the hand printed wording----

Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 18?

Mr. CADIGAN. Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, excuse me, the passport application, we have the wording "LEE OSWALD." This hand printed signature is quite distinctive in the formation of the individual letters, in the spacing of the letters, and their slant. For example, the letter "L" on both Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 and on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, there is a small hook in the upper left portion where the downstroke begins, and there is a little tent or hill at the base of the letter. The double letter "E's" also have a curve, a dent at the base of the letter, although not so pronounced. Both letters, both letter "E's," are approximately the same height as the "L."

In the last name "OSWALD" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 13 and on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10 the "O" has a pointed or tented appearance in the upper right portion, and the ending stroke curves down into the body of the letter. The "S" and "W" in both the questioned and known are smaller than the following capital letter "A." This capital letter "A" in both instances is made in the same manner as previously described on other exhibits. The writer uses a lower-case or small "l," and a lower-case or small "d" for the last two letters of his name, the "d" portion or the letter "d" in both instances being made with a straight-slanted stroke, then an abrupt circular stroke to the left.

In addition on this same exhibit I noted the formation of the letter "i." The exhibit I refer to is Cadigan Exhibit No. 13--the "i" being made very small in relation to the other letters adjacent to it.

This document also bears the signature "Lee H. Oswald" which, again, is a very characteristic signature. It appears in Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, the questioned document, and Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. The signature I noted was written rather rapidly. It is somewhat distorted in appearance. The initial "L" has a rather long curved beginning stroke and relatively narrow upper and lower portions of the letter. The letter "H" is made with two parallel strokes and it can be seen that there is a very little retrace from the base of the first stroke in the letter to the top of the second stroke in the letter.

The "O" combination is rather unusual in that the writer swings into the letter "s" from the top of the "O." Also, as the signature progresses to the right it increases in size, and very noticeably in the "ld" portion where the "d" stands well above the line of writing. And in this particular signature there is a long-swinging stroke from the top of the "d," having a shape similar to a "u" lying on its side. The base of the letter has a very sharp angular formation.

Again, based on a combination of the same individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics, I reached the opinion that Commission Exhibit No. 791 was prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 793, consisting of a change-of-address card relating to box 2915. Have you examined that exhibit?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. And have you prepared a photograph thereof?

Mr. CADIGAN. I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 14.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 14.)

Mr. EISENBERG. This photograph is an accurate reproduction of Commission Exhibit No. 793?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, getting back for a moment to Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, I see that there is another picture shown on that exhibit, apart from the one as to which you testified.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. That is a Post Office Department Form 1093, application for post office box, and the post office box number is 6225, and it is signed, Lee H. Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. And why is that included on the picture with Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, or rather on the picture with Commission Exhibit No. 791? Is that because they were both from----

Mr. CADIGAN. No; it is part of another post office application that does not relate to box 2916.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any particular reason for printing that up with the photograph of Exhibit No. 791?

Mr. CADIGAN. No. I think it may have been part of another exhibit which has not as yet been introduced.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does your identification of Exhibit No. 791 in any way depend upon that photograph?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; not at all.

Mr. EISENBERG. So we can disregard it for our purposes?

Mr. CADIGAN. If you want to, I can take it out.

Mr. EISENBERG. Well, it is in.

Mr. CADIGAN. I mean I can just cut it along here.

Mr. EISENBERG. I would rather leave it in, since it is in the record.

Mr. CADIGAN. All right.

Mr. EISENBERG. I just wanted to make sure that it didn't need to be discussed as part of the identification of Exhibit No. 791, and I take it it does not?

Mr. CADIGAN. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, getting back to Commission Exhibit No. 793 and the photograph thereof, which is Cadigan Exhibit No. 14, did you attempt to determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 793 had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. The photograph of which is Cadigan Exhibit No. 14. And what was your conclusion on that?

Mr. CADIGAN. Again, that Commission Exhibit No. 793 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald, again based upon finding the same combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics in both the questioned writing and the known standards.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you discuss some of those common characteristics?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Here, again, the entire word "Dallas" and the word Texas is made in a very characteristic manner which I have described before, and which appears on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9, 6, 7, and 8.

The signature "Lee H. Oswald" was found to have the same characteristics as the known signatures, although here I noted that in the ending "d" in Oswald the stroke was less cursive than the ending "d" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, in that the writer makes a rather narrow loop and does not cross the staff of the letter "d." I noted this characteristic, also, in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 9 and 10. I would like to point out that here, again, the writer varies his individual characteristics, which is entirely normal and expected, and actually it adds weight to the characteristic to find that it does vary to some degree. All writing, particularly signatures, are never exactly duplicated and some variation is normally expected, and finding the same variations in both questioned and known signatures increases the value of it, so that, again, the presence of the same combination of handwriting and hand printing characteristics in Cadigan Exhibit No. 14 in the known exhibits enabled me to reach the opinion that Commission Exhibit No. 793 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. You used the term "cursive" in respect to this. Can you explain the meaning of that term?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the ending "d" stroke is made with a flourish or a sweeping motion on Cadigan Exhibit No. 13, and on Cadigan Exhibit No. 14 the stroke ends abruptly at the staff of the letter.

Mr. EISENBERG. And why do you call one "more cursive"?

Mr. CADIGAN. Merely for description.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the meaning of the term "cursive" apart from your use in this instance?

Mr. CADIGAN. I think cursive has also been used to describe the roundness of writing as opposed to an angular shape. I think it also is sometimes used to distinguish between handwriting and hand printing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 795, consisting of an item purporting to be a Selective Service System notice of classification in the name of "Alek James Hidell"; Commission No. 801, a Selective Service System notice of classification in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 802, a registration certificate of the Selective Service System in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald; Commission Exhibit No. 803, a photographic negative; Commission Exhibit No. 804, a photograph negative; Commission Exhibit No. 805, a photograph negative; and Commission Exhibit No. 811, a photographic negative, and I ask you whether you have examined these various items?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Based on that examination, Mr. Cadigan, could you discuss your conclusions concerning Commission Exhibit No. 795?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. Commission Exhibit No. 795 is a fraudulent and counterfeit reproduction made from the retouched photographic negatives in Commission Exhibits Nos. 804, 805, and 811 which in turn were made from Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802.

Mr. EISENBERG. And how were they prepared precisely, Mr. Cadigan?

Mr. CADIGAN. These are photographic reproductions. What was done was to take a genuine Selective Service System notice of classification, Commission Exhibit No. 801 in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. From this, a photographic negative was prepared. Then various portions of the information, including the name, the selective service number, the signature of the clerk of the local board were obliterated with a red opaque substance, and I noted that in the course of this the individual preparing the negative had inadvertently cut off portions of the printed letters, had thickened printed lines, and especially I noted in the signature portion had destroyed portions of the printed letters, and I compared the Commission Exhibit No. 795 with the retouched negative itself, and observed that the defects in the Commission Exhibit No. 795 were due to the retouching of the negative. Although the negative has been blotted out, or the information has been blotted out, it is readily visible to the naked eye that on Commission Exhibit No. 893, which was also examined in connection with the examination of Commission Exhibit No. 795, the original writing, the original signature and the typed information "Lee Harvey Oswald" and selective service number is the same as it appears on Commission Exhibit No. 801. The opaquing is merely to remove this information photographically. There was an intervening step where a small negative or a reduced negative of the lower portion of the face of the card which refers to the penalty for violation concerning carrying the card itself was made. The individual responsible made a reduced photograph but, again, the same characteristics are apparent, and by comparing the print, the photographic print Commission Exhibit No. 795 with these negatives, it is possible to determine that the Commission Exhibit No. 795 was produced from the negatives and the negatives in turn were produced from Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802.

In this connection, I would point out that the reverse side of Commission Exhibit 795 is the form used for a registration certificate, and it is not a proper face of a notice of classification. Here, again, the same procedure was followed. The original card is photographed. The unwanted information is painted out with an opaque substance, and then a photographic print is prepared. Then the individual responsible typed in the information "Alek James Hidell" with the selective service number, descriptive data on the reverse, and the number of the local board.

Further, an examination of the Commission Exhibit No. 795 shows the individual had placed the photograph in a typewriter and struck a number of keys which did not print. The indentations from the typewriter keys can be clearly seen in side lighting. Also, in the selective service number on the face of the card and the data on the back of the card, indentations of typewriter keys were noted.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, returning to the negatives, I see that in Commission Exhibit No. 803, as you pointed out, the information that was originally on the card is visible.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Whereas, in Commission Exhibit No. 894 it is not visible.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain the difference?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; because Commission Exhibit No. 804 is an intermediate step. Commission Exhibit No. 803 was first prepared, and a print was made from this exhibit. The photographic print would not have the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" in red on it. In the place of "Lee Harvey Oswald" it would show as a blank. Then using the print, a second negative is prepared, and further retouching is done, and also the warning notice in a reduced form is inserted into the negative, so that the data from the original notice of classification issued in the name of Oswald appears on the first negative and does not appear on the second negative, but both negatives are directly linked to the original card of Oswald and to the counterfeit reproduction.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, have you prepared photographs of this card showing some of the details you have been discussing?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be Cadigan Exhibit No. 15.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 15.)

Mr. EISENBERG. This Cadigan Exhibit----

Mr. CADIGAN. Actually, there are four different photographs, photographic enlargements that comprise Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, the face and reverse of the notice of classification made in normal lighting, and the face and reverse of the card made with side lighting showing the typewritten indentations.

Mr. EISENBERG. Let's mark those, then, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 16, and 17, and 18.

(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 18, 17, and 18.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 shows the face with normal lighting?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 16 shows the reverse with normal lighting?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 17 shows the face with side lighting?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And Cadigan Exhibit No. 18 shows the reverse with side lighting?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. These exhibits also contain pictures of another questioned document which we will get to shortly, and that is the certificate of service in the name of Alek James Hidell, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, starting with Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, could you discuss several of the features on which you base the conclusions you have given us earlier?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes. The observation of this exhibit will show in the blocks for the selective service number fragmentary portions of the original selective service number. The lines have been thickened. In the space provided for "been classified in Class," in the middle, in approximately the middle of the space there is a heavy dotted line. By comparing this with the original card issued in the name "Oswald" is seen the lower portion of the capital letter "I."

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of the original card?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That we will mark Cadigan Exhibit No. 19.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 19.)

Mr. CADIGAN. On the right-hand side of the card the word "President" appears, and on Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 a portion of the "r" and the "e" is missing, due to the retouching. Examination of the corresponding area on Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 shows that this was due to retouching a portion of the signature of the local board. Similarly, in the wording "heavy penalty for violation" appearing below the signature, the word "violation" is considerably distorted in that portions of the various letters are missing. The negative shows this is due to retouching, and a comparison with the original card of Oswald, of which Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 is an enlargement, shows where the lower loops of the letter "f" cut into the letter, cut into the printed word "violation," which required retouching by the individual to remove it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of these negatives to illustrate these points?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. This is that photograph?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 20.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 20.)

Mr. CADIGAN. And by referring to the Cadigan Exhibit No. 20, which shows the retouching, examination of the area in the word "President" will show where the portion of the "r" has been cut off. It will show where the capital letter "I" appears in the space provided "been classified in Class," the "I" being part of the classification, Roman numeral "IV-A," which appears on the original card.

Cadigan Exhibit No. 20 shows, also, the intermediate negative where the size of the warning appearing on the bottom of the card was reduced, and the additional retouching made that causes the distorted appearance of the word "violation" on the Commission Exhibit No. 795, so that it was based on my comparison side by side of the negatives, the photographic print, and the original exhibit in the wallet of Oswald, which enabled me to determine that this Commission Exhibit No. 795 was a fraudulent counterfeit made from retouched negatives which, in turn, were made from the original exhibits, Commission Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802.

Mr. EISENBERG. I think that Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 16, 17, and 18 are self-explanatory.

Mr. CADIGAN. They merely serve to illustrate the indented typewriting that appears on these exhibits.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 806, purporting to be a certificate of service that Alek James Hidell has honorably served on active duty in the U.S. Marine Corps, and ask you whether you have examined that document?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 812, consisting of two negatives. Have you examined those negatives?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Based upon your examination, have you come to any conclusion as to the construction of Commission Exhibit No. 806?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; again, this is a fraudulent and counterfeit reproduction made from photographic negatives which, in turn, were made from the original card issued in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken a photograph of the original card?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And where does that appear? That is the photograph you are handing me now, which we will label Cadigan Exhibit No. 21?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

(The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 21.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Cadigan Exhibit No. 21 includes the selective service registration certificate we have been discussing, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; it includes an enlargement of the original Selective Service System registration certificate issued in the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that is the Selective Service System certificate on which the forgery in the name of Hidell was based?

Mr. CADIGAN. From which the reverse side of the forged or the fraudulent and counterfeit notice of classification was prepared.

Mr. EISENBERG. Focusing our attention on the certificate of service, could you illustrate by use of this photograph and any others you have already introduced some of the points which led you to your conclusion----

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. As to Commission Exhibit No. 806?

Mr. CADIGAN. The two negatives in Commission Exhibit No. 812, which appear on Cadigan Exhibit No. 20, show the areas of retouching. Examination of the negatives themselves in Commission Exhibit No. 812 shows that the original entries on the face and reverse side can be seen. It appears in red. The face reads "Lee Harvey Oswald, 1653230." And the reverse side bears his signature.

From a study of the negatives and from the enlarged photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 15, 16, 17, and 18, I wish to point out some of the evidence that links these three items together. On Cadigan Exhibit No. 16, on the reverse side in the printed word "signature," the "u" is misshapen, due to some of the retouched substance crossing the letter, and this is exactly in the area where the upper portion of the name "Lee" appears on the original card. This is seen on Cadigan Exhibit No. 21.

Also on the line below, in which appears the printed wording "signature of certifying officer," in the letter "n" in "certifying" can be seen a long line which at first glance might appear to be a part of the signature "A. G. Ayers, Jr.," but which corresponds exactly to the ending stroke of the letter "y" in "Harvey."

Also, in the printed word "officer" on the same line can be seen the effects of the retouch in that the upper part of the first "f" has been cut off by the retouch substance. So that by a study and a comparison of the Commission Exhibit No. 806 with the negatives, with particular reference to where the retouching fluid has cut into lines or printing, and further comparing the same negative with the original card, as shown in Cadigan Exhibit No. 21, I determined and it can be seen that the Commission Exhibit No. 806 was produced from the negatives in Exhibit No. 812, which, in turn, were produced from the original card of which Cadigan Exhibit No. 21 is a photograph.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, in either the fraudulent selective service notice of classification or certificate of service, have attempts been made to reinstate portions of printed lines which were blocked out by the opaque substance?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; I didn't notice that, particularly. I noticed from a technical standpoint that the opaquing was rather crudely done, in that the opaquing of negatives is a common photographic technique, and with reasonable care you can avoid cutting into lines. I didn't particularly observe any areas where the lines had been put back in.

This does not eliminate the possibility, because it is a very simple matter of scratching through the opaque emulsion to produce such a line.

Mr. EISENBERG. Where the line is thickened, as is visible in Cadigan Exhibit No. 15, how would you account for that, Mr. Cadigan? I am looking now at Cadigan Exhibit No. 15 in the block, that portion of the rectangular block surrounding the number "224," and particularly the bottom of the block.

Mr. CADIGAN. A study and examination of Cadigan Exhibit No. 19 shows that these areas correspond to the figures "114" which appear in the second block of the Selective Service number, and which were not retouched off.

Mr. EISENBERG. So you feel that, rather than the bottom of that block being thickened in the retouching, what you have is a residue from the typed-in portion----

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which appeared on the original card?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; and this can be further seen. The right-hand side of the block for the first two letters of the selective service number shows a thickened area which corresponds to the numeral "1" on the original card of Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, returning now for a moment to Commission Exhibit No. 795, were you able to identify either of the two signatures written in ink on that card, the one being "Alek J. Hidell," and the other a signature written over the caption "Member or clerk of local board"?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; I did examine the "Alek J. Hidell" signature appearing as the signature of registrant, but the known writings available of Lee Harvey Oswald were not sufficiently comparable with the signature to reach a definite opinion. I did note, however, some similarities in the letter "A" and in the last name, the letter "H" and the ending "l." But these were not of sufficient weight nor of sufficient number nor of sufficient combination to warrant a definite opinion.

Mr. EISENBERG. You say you compared this item, this signature with the known standards. Did you compare the signature with questioned documents which you already identified?

Mr. CADIGAN. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I wonder whether after this deposition would you compare this signature with those questioned signatures of "Alek J. Hidell" which you have now identified?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; certainly.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 817, consisting of a portion of an application for a post office box 30061 in New Orleans, POD Form 1093, and ask you whether you have examined that item?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And have you attempted to determine whether that item, Commission Exhibit No. 817, was prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald, whose known writings we have introduced previously?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. On Commission Exhibit No. 817 the hand printed names, "A. J. Hidell," and "Marina Oswald," and the signature "L. H. Oswald," were written by Lee Harvey Oswald, based on a comparison with his known standards of writing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared a photograph of Commission Exhibit No. 817?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And does that also include a photograph of another item, apparently another part of the application?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did your identification of the Commission Exhibit No. 817 depend in any way upon your identification of the other part of the item which is shown in your photograph?

Mr. CADIGAN. It did not.

Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark the photograph Cadigan. Exhibit No. 22. (The document referred to was marked Cadigan Exhibit No. 22.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And it is an accurate photograph?

Mr. CADIGAN. It is.

Mr. EISENBERG. We haven't been going over that with all the other photographs, but is that true of all the photographs we have introduced so far?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. And any other photographs you may introduce during the balance of this deposition?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is true.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, by use of that photograph and by use of the photographs of the standards, could you explain some of the points which led you to your conclusion concerning Commission Exhibit No. 817?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; here again, it is the presence of the same combination of characteristics in the hand printing and signature on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 and on Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. For example, the word "Marina" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 can be compared with the same word or the same name on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, the "M" being characterized by a rather long beginning stroke, the center of the letter is high, giving the letter somewhat the appearance of the numeral "3" tipped on its side. The "A" is similar to or made in the same way as previous "A's," with a pointed top, with the beginning stroke about two-thirds of the way up the staff. The "i", again, is very small in relation to the letters coming before and after it. In the "N" there is a curve at the base of the letter. It is more pronounced on Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 than in the name "Marina" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, but in the name "Lillian," on the same exhibit, the same kind of curve is observed.

In "Oswald," again in the signature "L. H. Oswald," I find the same characteristics and combinations of characteristics. In the questioned signature in Cadigan Exhibit No. 22 as in the various known signatures in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, here I think the ending "ld," the narrow pointed loops used for the "l" and "d" are very small, and with a rather misshapen body or upper stroke.

Again, it is the presence of the same combination of handwriting and hand printing characteristics which led me to the opinion that this exhibit had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 813, a vaccination certificate, a purported vaccination certificate, signed by "A. J. Hidell," and I ask you whether you have examined that item?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, this bears writing on the outside and the inside. Have you attempted to determine whether that writing is the writing of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What is your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. That the hand printing and the Oswald signature were written by Lee Harvey Oswald, again based on the presence of the same combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of this exhibit?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Those will be Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24.

(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24.)

Mr. CADIGAN. I would point out that these represent only a portion of the original document, since for demonstration purposes the lower printed blank is not included in these exhibits.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, the document as we see it now exhibits extremely faint writing. Can you explain the reason for that?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; this is due to treatment of the card for latent fingerprints by chemical process which bleaches and makes inks run.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was the document treated to restore the original color after it had been treated for fingerprints?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; from looking at this, it has been desilvered, but it has not been completely desilvered since parts of the stains of the chemical treatment remain.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you first saw the document and made your examination, was the document in its original condition, that is, had it been treated yet for fingerprints?

Mr. CADIGAN. I never saw the original.

Mr. EISENBERG. You never saw the original?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; I had a Xerox copy of the original exhibit. I did not see this original exhibit.

Mr. EISENBERG. You said before you had examined this exhibit?

Mr. CADIGAN. To be more exact, I examined a Xerox copy of this exhibit.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know who prepared the Xerox copy?

Mr. CADIGAN. It was submitted by our Dallas office.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was this a copy of the front and the back?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And are your photographs of the Xerox or of the original?

Mr. CADIGAN. They are made from the Xerox.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is this the first time you saw the original?

Mr. CADIGAN. I believe it is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Based upon your examination of the original at this point, and a comparison of the photograph of the Xerox copies, would you conclude that the Xerox copies had been made before the document had been treated for fingerprints?

Mr. CADIGAN. Very definitely.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you note a few of the points which led you to your conclusion concerning the handwriting appearing on the documents you photographed as Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 23 and 24?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the handwritten signature "Lee H. Oswald" is written in a very distinctive manner. The "L" with its rather long beginning stroke, and its narrow upper, and the lower loop, is almost in the shape of a triangle. The large loop formation at the top of the "O" leading into the letter "s" and the loop at the base of the "s" is almost a carbon copy of the same characteristic appearing on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, page 2. And again, the narrow "l" and relatively large "d" with a very pronounced ending stroke on the "d" is typical of the manner in which this man writes his signature.

So also in the hand printing, on Cadigan Exhibit No. 10, we see the "LEE" and the "OSWALD," the little hook at the start of the "L" and the reverse curves at the base of both the "L" and the following "EE's." Again, we see the use of the lowercase "l" and the lowercase "d" in the formation of "Oswald," whereas the rest of the letters are capital letters.

Here, again, the presence of the same combination of characteristics led me to the opinion that this writing had been prepared by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the signature "A. J. Hidell"?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; it does not. This signature is distorted, and the standards, the known standards of Lee Harvey Oswald I had available for comparison would not justify any opinion concerning this particular signature.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to compare it with the questioned items which you had, theretofore, identified?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; without reaching any opinion one way or the other.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would you conclude that it was not written by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; I would not.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does it bear any similarities to Oswald's handwriting at any point?

Mr. CADIGAN. I didn't observe any that I thought were sufficiently significant in characteristics to warrant pointing out. It is a question of judgment as to how you evaluate a given characteristic. I don't see, and do not see now, any characteristic worthy of mention to either say Oswald did or didn't do it.

Mr. EISENBERG. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 115, consisting of a rubber stamping kit, and ask you whether you have examined that stamping kit.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the stamping on the document which you have photographed as Cadigan Exhibit No. 23, was produced by the rubber stamp kit, Exhibit No. 115?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What conclusion did you reach?

Mr. CADIGAN. I couldn't reach any conclusion because the exhibit that I had, and from which Cadigan Exhibit No. 23 was made, is a Xerox copy, and is not adequate for the rubber stamp examination of this kind.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see anything which led you to believe that the stamp on on the document you examined could not have been made by Exhibit No. 115?

Rather than answer that question, could you undertake to perform an examination based upon the original?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. At a subsequent time?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you will supply us with the results of that by letter?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 819, consisting of a photograph of a card, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee, New Orleans Chapter, L. H. Oswald," with Oswald's signature, or a signature purporting to be Lee H. Oswald's, and the signature "A. J. Hidell"; and Commission Exhibit No. 820, which appears to be similar to the photograph Exhibit No. 819, except that there is no signature apparent in the space where the signature A. J. Hidell appears in Exhibit No 819, and I ask you whether you have examined these two items.

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is Exhibit No. 819 a photograph of Exhibit No. 820?

Mr. CADIGAN. It is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit No. 820 is seriously discolored now and does not have the words "A. J. Hidell" apparent. Can you explain how that came about?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the original Commission Exhibit No. 820 had been treated for latent fingerprints, and this is a chemical process which has removed the ink of the signature. However, on examination under strong side lighting and using low-power magnification, portions of the letters "A," "J," and "H," of the signature of the chapter president can be discerned, and are in the same place on the photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 819, as on the original, Commission Exhibit No. 820.

Furthermore, a comparison of the writing and the rubber stamp, especially with reference to the position of these with respect to lines and printing and other fixed points on the card, definitely shows that Commission Exhibit No. 819 is a photograph of Exhibit No. 820, and made before it was treated for latent fingerprints.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, apart from this, did you take the photograph, Exhibit No. 819?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; the photograph was made in our photographic laboratory.

Mr. EISENBERG. But you did see Exhibit No. 820, before it had been discolored, did you not?

Mr. CADIGAN. I don't recall at this time. It may well be that I did, but I have no independent recollection of it now.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that your testimony that Exhibit No. 819 is a photograph of Exhibit No. 820 is based upon your evaluation of the two items as they exist now rather than upon recollection of Exhibit No. 820 before it was discolored?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is true.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you know why Exhibit No. 820 was not reprocessed or desilvered?

Mr. CADIGAN. No, this is a latent fingerprint matter.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain why the signature, "Lee H. Oswald" or rather L. H. Oswald is apparent, while the signature "A. J. Hidell" is not?

Mr. CADIGAN. Different inks.

Mr. EISENBERG. Some inks are more soluble in the solution used for fingerprint tests than others?

Mr. CADIGAN. Definitely.

Mr. EISENBERG. Other Commission Exhibits, specifically Nos. 788, 801, and 802 also appear to have been treated for fingerprints?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Exhibit No. 788 has been desilvered?

Mr. CADIGAN. Desilvered, and Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802 are still in their original silvered condition.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you see these items before they were treated for fingerprints?

Mr. CADIGAN. I know I saw Exhibit No. 788 before it was treated for fingerprints. As to Exhibits Nos. 801 and 802, I don't know at this time.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are the photographs which you produced photographs of the items before they were treated for fingerprints or after?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; before they were treated for fingerprints. In other words, it is regular customary practice to photograph an exhibit before it is treated for latents for exactly this reason, that in the course of the treatment there may be some loss of detail, either total or partial.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you take the photographs?

Mr. CADIGAN. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are you referring to the photographs which you produced at an earlier point?

Mr. CADIGAN. The photographs that I have produced here today, the various enlargements, were made from negatives. These negatives, in turn, were made at the time the original exhibits were photographed, and this would be before latent fingerprint treatment.

Mr. EISENBERG. I asked you when I introduced those exhibits whether they had been prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is true.

Mr. EISENBERG. You meant, then, that they were prepared under your supervision, or did you mean that they were prepared by you in the sense that you made the enlargement from the negative?

Mr. CADIGAN. No; they were prepared under my supervision. In other words, I maintain all of the negatives in connection with the document aspects of this file in my room, under lock and key, at all times. I pull the negatives that I want enlarged, and I prepare a photograph requisition, take it down to our photographers, tell them what I want, and then later go back and pick up the enlargements, and check them to be sure they are just what I want.

Mr. EISENBERG. What about the negative itself? Can you state of your own knowledge whether the negative itself is of the original?

Mr. CADIGAN. Only, insofar, that I know that on November 23, when the vast bulk of this material came in, that it was photographed. Some of these items I saw before they were photographed, and some afterward. But the exact sequence to select one item out of four or five hundred, I cannot, in all honesty, say I definitely recall seeing this before it was photographed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain what the procedure is when a document came in involving the assassination?

Mr. CADIGAN. Initially, the first big batch of evidence was brought into the laboratory on November 23 of 1963 and this consisted of many, many items.

Mr. EISENBERG. 1963?

Mr. CADIGAN. November 23, 1963. It was a very large quantity of evidence that was brought in. There were several agent examiners available to evaluate this material. There were supervisory officials, there were representatives from our Internal Security Division, all of whom had an interest in this matter, and it was decided they wanted certain items treated for latent fingerprints. The basic rule is always that before an exhibit is treated for latent fingerprints it is photographed, and that is what was done in this case.

Mr. EISENBERG. What happens to the negative after it is photographed? Were they all given to you?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; the negatives that pertain to the document aspects I took over and maintained under my control. Negatives pertaining to firearms evidence or hairs or fibers, they were turned over to Mr. Frazier.

Mr. EISENBERG. So under the regular procedure, as soon as the document came in it would be photographed, before it was treated for latents and the negative would be turned over to you?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. So at least if the procedure had been followed, any negative you had would be a negative of a document before it had been treated for fingerprints, is that correct?

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, returning to Commission Exhibits Nos. 820 and 819, did you prepare a photograph which would show the remnants of the signature A. J. Hidell on the Commission Exhibit No. 820?

Mr. CADIGAN. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is the preparation of such a photograph possible?

Mr. CADIGAN. I doubt it very much, because the indentations are so faint that the enlargement would serve no useful purpose. Actually, the best examination is by low-power magnification under the proper lighting.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine whether the signature of Lee H. Oswald on this card was written by Lee H. Oswald?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. That the Lee H. Oswald signature on Commission Exhibit No. 820 was written by Lee H. Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. What about the signature "A. J. Hidell"?

Mr. CADIGAN. I was unable to reach a conclusion. First of all, at the time I compared this signature the known standards of Lee Harvey Oswald were inadequate for this particular comparison.

I did, however, note that there were certain differences in this signature that indicate the possibility of someone other than Oswald having prepared it. But in my opinion, the characteristics I observed were not of sufficient weight for a positive opinion in this regard.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you note those characteristics?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; I think the capital letter "A" and the capital letter "H" in "Hidell" are different from the "A's" that Oswald makes, that appear in the enlarged photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10.

Mr. EISENBERG. Anything else?

Mr. CADIGAN. I think the lower case "d," especially in the rounded shape of the body of it and the relatively short height of the staff, so that the staff compared to the body is very short. The "J" is made different or in a different manner than Oswald regularly makes or usually makes his "J's" in the known standards, but again it is a question of judgment as to whether you believe a combination of characteristics is enough to either eliminate or identify. In this instance, in my opinion, these differences point to the possibility of another writer other than Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. You indicated before, also, that there was another ink used.

Mr. CADIGAN. That is correct. This, of course, in and of itself, is of no consequence, since the same person can use two different pens, so the color of the ink would not be, in my mind, significant.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does that signature appear to have been written naturally?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. At normal speed?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Any evidence of retouching?

Mr. CADIGAN. No.

Mr. EISENBERG. Generally, were the signatures and other handwritings in the questioned documents you have reviewed in this deposition today written naturally?

Mr. CADIGAN. With the exception of the "Hidell" signature on his certificate of vaccination. There is, in my opinion, distortion present there. But, by and large, in fact in almost all of the various handwritings, hand printings, and signatures, there is no evidence of disguise or distortion, in my opinion.

Mr. EISENBERG. What type of evidence indicates disguise or distortion?

Mr. CADIGAN. Distortion and disguise can take many forms. It can be in the form of a change in slant, a deliberate malformation of the individual letters. It can be shown in broken or interrupted strokes. It can be shown in waves or wiggles in the line itself which should not normally be there. It may be occasioned by a person using other than normal hand, a left-handed person writing with his right hand or a right-handed person writing with his left hand. All these introduce elements of distoration or disguise. The extent of it can only be determined by comparing a given writing with known writings, and observing the characteristics present, and on that basis you can then formulate an opinion as to whether or not there is any appreciable amount of distortion or disguise.

Mr. EISENBERG. How would you evaluate the possibility of another person having simulated the handwriting of Lee Harvey Oswald in these questioned documents?

Mr. CADIGAN. I don't think there is any possibility.

Mr. EISENBERG. On what do you base that?

Mr. CADIGAN. I base that on 23 years experience and judgment and the examination of the documents and the various writings involved in this instance.

Mr. EISENBERG. And do I understand that if that had happened, the person would have left evidence behind which you would have detected?

Mr. CADIGAN. In my opinion, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And that would be in what form?

Mr. CADIGAN. It would be in many forms. Failure to incorporate into the writings things that should be there, and including in the writings things that are not in Oswald's writing, differences in slant, spacing, proportions of letters, both to other letters and proportions of letters within themselves, the adoption of the various variations that you find in the known writings. When the amount of writing approaches the amount involved here, there is a large, a relatively large volume of questioned writings. The possibilities of successful or undetectible forgery, in my opinion, are nil.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cadigan, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No. 1, which is a note in the Russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you whether you have examined that item?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you Commission Exhibit Nos. 55, 56, and 66, consisting of various notes in the cyrillic language, rather in the Russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you whether you have examined those notes?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Who is the purported signer of those notes, Exhibits Nos. 55, 56, and 66?

Mr. CADIGAN. From the translation that I read these are purportedly written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, these have also been identified by Marina as having been written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

And these are signed Alek in some or all cases?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; they are signed A-l-e-k, Alek in all three instances.

Mr. EISENBERG. Again, for the record, this is a name which was used for Oswald during his period of staying in the Soviet Union.

Have you attempted to determine whether Commission Exhibit No. 1 was written by the person who wrote Commission Exhibits Nos. 55, 56, and 66?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. That Commission Exhibit No. 1 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you prepared photographs of Commission Exhibits Nos. 55, 56, and 66?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; of the letters contained in those exhibits.

Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark those as Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25, 26, 27, and 28.

(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25, 26, 27, and 28.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you also taken a photograph of Commission Exhibit No 1?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. I will mark that as Cadigan Exhibit No. 29----

Mr. CADIGAN. Front and back.

Mr. EISENBERG. And Cadigan Exhibit No. 30, representing respectively the back and front of Commission Exhibit No. 1.

(The documents referred to were marked Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 29 and 30.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, by use of photographs Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25 through 30, could you explain some of the reasons which led you to your conclusion?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes; and I would point out that in addition to the four enlargements written in Russian, I also used Cadigan Exhibits or the documents represented by Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10, the known standards of Oswald, since there are English letters interspersed with the Russian writing on Commission Exhibit No. 1. Thus, for example, in the second line in Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 appears the word "to" which is directly comparable to the same word appearing in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. This is characterized by a long sweeping upstroke, and the recurving downstroke cuts the staff about in half. And the "o" is without any tail, and it is relatively small and set fairly close into the staff. The "t" crossing is rather long and fairly high.

I noted these same characteristics in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10.

Further, there is the wording in English, "Red Cross" appearing about two-thirds of the way down the side of the page beginning with the numeral 6, and here, again, I noted the same characteristics in the English hand printing in Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 4 through 10. Again, the use of the small "e" and the small "d" in conjunction with the capital "R," and then in the word "cross" he has used the capital letters. On the face of the Commission Exhibit No. 1 appear the printed English letters "ERVAY" which are almost directly comparable with the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" in Cadigan Exhibit No. 10. The E here is characterized by the little loop at the base of the staff. The "R" has a flat closed loop on the left side of the staff. The "Y" is constructed of two strokes, almost a perfect "V" shape for the body and a tail slanting back away from it.

The letter "p" or what appears to be the letter "p," indicated by the roman numeral 2 and a red arrow, is similar to the English "p," characterized by a long narrow staff without much of a loop. The body of the letter extends above the staff and the base is open. The bottom of the letter is not closed in.

The numeral "1" on the chart Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to a Russian character which resembles somewhat the English letter "G," the capital letter G. This is characterized by a rather large elongated loop along the left side of the upstroke, and the finishing stroke is short and straight.

The numeral "3" in red on Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to the Russian word which resembles the English word "tbi." The "t" has a very long beginning upstroke. The crossing of the "t" is high and is at the top of the letter. The b is formed with a straight staff on the back side, and there is a well spaced connection to the following letter which resembles the English letter "i."

I further noted that on this same side of the document shown in Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 in the second to the last line from the bottom appears the combination "exa," which is directly comparable with the "exa" in "Texas" appearing on the photograph Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 6, 4, and 9, among others. Again this characteristic way of making the "x" is almost like a "u" or an open "o." There is a little extra stroke that breaks off of the "x" so that instead of looking like "exa" it has the appearance of "eva" with a diagonal stroke through the "v."

The number "6" in red on Cadigan Exhibit No. 29 points to the combination which looks like the English letters "Ha," where the same two letters appear on the photographs, Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 25 and 26, the "H" being made in two roughly parallel straight strokes. The "a" is almost in the form of a circle, and the tail of the "a" runs out horizontally to the line of writing.

On Cadigan Exhibit No. 30, the number "8" in red with an arrow points to the combination of letters which resemble the English letters "tak," and this same combination or the same letters appear on Cadigan Exhibit No. 27. Again, the "t" has a rather long beginning stroke. The crossing is high and long, and I noted that the "k" in both instances is made in a similar manner.

The figure "9" on Cadigan Exhibit No. 30 also points to a different style of k, or what resembles the English letter "k," in that it is composed of a straight staff and the body or the right portion of the letter is almost the shape of a v tilted on its side.

Because of this combination of characteristics, as well as many others, I reached the opinion that Government's Exhibit No. 1 was written by Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Commission Exhibit No. 1, that is?

Mr. CADIGAN. Yes, of which Cadigan Exhibits Nos. 30 and 29 are photographic enlargements.

Mr. EISENBERG. I have no further questions, Mr. Cadigan. Thank you very much. You have been extremely helpful.

AFFIDAVIT OF EARLENE ROBERTS

The following affidavit was executed by Earlene Roberts on December 5, 1963.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, County of Dallas, ss:

I, Earlene Roberts, after being duly sworn, do depose and state:

I live at 1026 Beckley, Dallas, Texas, where I serve as housekeeper for a rooming house owned by Mr. & Mrs. A. C. Johnson.

On Friday, November 22, 1963, at approximately 1:00 pm I was sitting in the living room watching television about the President's assassination when a man I knew as O. H. Lee, but who has since been identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, came into the front door and went to his room. Oswald did not have a jacket when he came in the house and I don't recall what type of clothing he was wearing.

Oswald went to his room and was only there a very few minutes before coming out. I noticed he had a jacket he was putting on. I recall the jacket was a dark color and it was the type that zips up the front. He was zipping the jacket up as he left.

Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house. I just glanced out the window that once. I don't know how long Lee Oswald stood at the curb nor did I see which direction he went when he left there.

About thirty minutes later three Dallas policemen came to the house looking for Lee Harvey Oswald. We didn't know who Lee Harvey Oswald was until sometime later his picture was flashed on television. I then let the Dallas policemen in the room occupied by Lee Oswald. While the Dallas police were searching the room two FBI agents came in.

The police and FBI agents took everything in the room that belong to Lee Oswald and also took our pillow case and two towels and wash cloths.

I have made this statement, consisting of three pages, to Special Agents William N. Carter and Arthur W. Blake of the U.S. Secret Service. I have read this statement over and I find it to be true to the best of my knowledge.

Signed this 5th day of December 1963.

(S) Earlene Roberts, EARLENE ROBERTS.

AFFIDAVIT OF RALPH W. YARBOROUGH

The following affidavit was executed by Ralph W. Yarborough on July 10, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

In response to the oral request of one of the attorneys for the Commission that I send you an affidavit for inclusion in the record of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I make the following statement:

On November 22, 1963, as the President and Mrs. Kennedy rode through the streets of Dallas, I was in the second car behind them. The first car behind the Presidential car was the Secret Service car; the second car behind them was Vice-President Lyndon Johnson's car. The driver and a secret service agent were on the front seat of the Vice-President's car. Vice-President Lyndon B. Johnson sat on the right side of the rear seat of the automobile, Mrs. Lyndon B. Johnson was in the center of the rear seat, while I sat on the left side of the rear seat.

After the Presidential motorcade had passed through the heart of downtown Dallas, experiencing an exceptionally warm and friendly greeting, as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by. I have handled firearms for fifty year, and thought immediately that it was a rifle shot. When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots--these were my impressions that day), a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital.

I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. I saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at about the time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade started up and raced away.

Due to the second car, with the secret service men standing on steps on the sides of it, I could not see what was happening in the Presidential car during the shooting itself. Some of the secret service men looked backward and to the right, in the general direction from which the rifle explosions seemed to come.

After the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked backward. However, all of the secret service men seemed to me to respond very slowly, with no more than a puzzled look. In fact, until the automatic weapon was uncovered, I had been lulled into a sense of false hope for the President's safety, by the lack of motion, excitement, or apparent visible knowledge by the secret service men, that anything so dreadful was happening. Knowing something of the training that combat infantrymen and Marines receive, I am amazed at the lack of instantaneous response by the Secret Service, when the rifle fire began. I make this statement in this paragraph reluctantly, not to add to the anguish of anyone, but it is my firm opinion, and I write it out in the hope that it might be of service in the better protection of our Presidents in the future.

After we went under the underpass, on the upward slope I could see over the heads of the occupants of the second car (Secret Service car) and could see an agent lying across the back or trunk of the Presidential car, with his feet to the right side of the car, his head at the left side. He beat the back of the car with one hand, his face contorted by grief, anguish, and despair, and I knew from that instant that some terrible loss had been suffered.

On arrival at the hospital, I told newsmen that three rifle shots had been fired. There was then no doubt in my mind that the shots were rifle shots, and I had neither then or now any doubts that any other shots were fired. In my opinion only three shots were fired.

The attached photograph from pages 24 and 25 of the Saturday Evening Post of December 14, 1963, shows the motorcade, as I remember it, an instant after the first shot. [Photograph is Yarborough Exhibit A.]

Given and sworn to this 10th day of July, 1964, at Washington, District of Columbia.

Signed this 10th day of July 1964.

(S) Ralph W. Yarborough, RALPH W. YARBOROUGH.

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH P. O'DONNELL

The testimony of Kenneth P. O'Donnell was taken at 12:05 p.m., on May 18, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Norman Redlich and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you rise, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, the purpose of our asking you to testify today is to obtain whatever knowledge you have about the origin of the trip to Texas by President Kennedy, the events during the trip, and the trip back to Washington, D.C., on November 22. With that general statement of purpose, I will ask you if you have any objection to giving a deposition at this time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Kenneth P. O'Donnell.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was special assistant to the President. I was in charge of his appointments and any itineraries that he might have.

Mr. SPECTER. How long had you served in that capacity?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I served as special assistant to the President since the inauguration, January 20, 1961, with the same duties.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a party to the original conversations and decision for President Kennedy to make a trip to Texas in November of 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The origin of the trip I would think came from a conversation between the President, then Vice President Johnson, and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President Johnson's desire that he come to Texas and spend some time there, looking forward to the campaign of 1964, in which Texas would play a very vital role in President Kennedy's view.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did that first conversation occur, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We had been discussing this for almost 6 or 7 months, but the time had never seemed quite right, either in the Vice President's mind or in Governor Connally's mind. Governor Connally and the Vice President had discussed this. They arrived at a general agreement that it be done some time in the latter part of the month of November. I think this decision probably came in October, some time in October.

Mr. SPECTER. When had President Kennedy been in Dallas prior to the trip of November 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The last time the President had been in Dallas was as a candidate for the Presidency.

I correct myself. He had been to--visit Speaker Rayburn in the hospital. I was not on that trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Then aside from the trip to see Speaker Rayburn, in the hospital, had the President been in Dallas at all since the campaign of 1960?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He had not.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately when it was that President Kennedy visited Speaker Rayburn in the hospital in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know exactly. It would be just before he passed away.

Mr. SPECTER. Does October 1961 sound about right to you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It sounds about right.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many times had President Kennedy been to Texas between the campaign of 1960 and November 1963, if you know?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he had been to the Speaker's funeral at Bonham. He had been to Houston, to see the new space center, and also he spoke at Rice Stadium. And he had been to El Paso, on a military inspection tour.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those, then, all the trips he made, to your knowledge?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That is all I can recollect at the moment.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what was the purpose of the President's trip to Texas in November of 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in Texas. There were great controversies existing. There was a party problem in Texas that the President and the Vice President felt he could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting President Kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of 1964. I think that is the major reason for the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy motivated, to any extent at all, by his interest in making himself as President available to the people generally in every section of the country, including Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Very definitely. The President's views of his responsibilities as President of the United States were that he meet the people, that he go out to their homes and see them, and allow them to see him, and discuss, if possible, the views of the world as he sees it, the problems of the country as he sees them. And he felt that leaving Washington for the President of the United States was most necessary--not only for the people, but for the President himself, that he expose himself to the actual basic problems that were disturbing the American people. It helped him in his job here, he was able to come back here with a fresh view of many things. I think he felt very strongly that the President ought to get out of Washington, and go meet the people on a regular basis.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he enjoy that exposure, strictly as a personal matter?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He enjoyed it very much. The President--liked people, and he liked to mingle with people.

Mr. SPECTER. When were the specific dates of November 21 and November 22 finally set as being the precise times for the trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I am not clear in my recollection of that. I would think some time early in November. I know Thanksgiving was one of the problems we had to work with. We decided that would be the best time to go, in that general area, and we, in general, would keep a file--once we agreed we were going to Texas--we would keep a file on all the speaking engagements, all the invitations the President had received.

I would go to that file and select some that might look promising. One of them that I recollect was an invitation from Congressman Albert Thomas, or his committee, that was giving him an appreciation dinner--not the Congressman himself. And the President was very fond of Congressman Thomas, he was most helpful to him, and I knew he would want to go, if this was at all possible. I would think that probably had more to do with setting the actual definite dates of the 21st and 22d.

Mr. SPECTER. When, if you recall, was the Secret Service notified of the forthcoming trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think they would be notified around the first week in November. The general desire is that they have the specific information at least on the places that he might go 3 weeks prior to the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. And who among the members of the Presidential staff would be charged with the responsibility for coordinating the trip with the Secret Service?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be my responsibility. The manner in which we would set it up would be that I would notify the head here, who is Gerry Behn, and Gerry Behn would ask me when we were sending people down, so that his people and our people could go down at the same time. And I recollect that Jerry Bruno was one of them.

The first step would be to confer with the Governor, go over the general proposals that the Governor would make, and then bring it back to me. And I would go over it with the Governor and the Vice President and the President.

Mr. SPECTER. What planning was undertaken with respect to the determination of the motorcade route through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think once we arrived--we chose the four cities we were going into. And then the advance men and the Secret Service went out. Then we would work backwards from where we had to be at what time, and what things we had agreed we would do there. And the original--Dallas, as I recollect, was going to be an evening affair. The Governor thought the evening affair should be in Austin, and that we should hit Dallas around noontime.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the evening affair, what are you referring to specifically there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a political dinner which was to be conducted at Austin that evening, at the end of which the President was going with the Vice President to the ranch. This was a political fundraising dinner.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any conversation given at all to omitting a motorcade through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. None.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the considerations behind the decision on having a motorcade through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we had a motorcade wherever we went. Particularly when we went to a large city, the purpose of going there was to give the President as much exposure to the people of Dallas and vice versa, the people of Dallas to the President, as possible.

The speaking engagement was a luncheon which was rather limited. And the President would not want to leave Dallas feeling that the only ones that were able to see him were a rather select group. So it would be automatic, and we would not even proceed with instructions, that the advance man and the Secret Service would, within the time allotted to them--would bring the President into Dallas, through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people.

Mr. SPECTER. When was a decision made, if you recall, as to the precise route that the motorcade would follow through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I would think it would be perhaps a week before the final decision was made. The President would not involve himself in anything like this. Once we agreed on where he would go, that was my responsibility to work it out. The normal course of events--they would say to me, "Do you want a motorcade in Dallas?" I would say, "Yes; this is how much time you have got." They would work out a motorcade. The Secret Service would time the route. Once they had worked out this point, they would come back to me and say, "We have accomplished the purpose you want." The Secret Service would say it takes so much time, the Governor would say "You have to be here at a certain time." Once all those are put together, the route is laid out and accepted.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall how long after the determination of the motorcade route that that information was transmitted to the press in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. I would think on the transmission to the press that that would not come from here anyway. That would come from down there. I would think the Governor's office would probably put that out. We would under normal circumstances inform through Mr. Salinger's office, I would inform him of the trip, and then I would give him a schedule that is given to me by the Secret Service, which would give the times, but no routes--times and locations, and would go along that he would arrive at 12 o'clock, address such and such a group at 1 o'clock. So we would not normally be privy--they could be saying to me, "We are going down 12th Street"--it would not mean anything to me. So I would think that our advance man and the Governor's advance man would make a decision on when they were going to announce the route.

I would think that was almost normal. You might say you wanted to do it 4 days ahead of time in New York, and the local fellow would really determine it--"Down here we do it this way."

Mr. SPECTER. Would the route be disclosed to the press as a matter of normal procedure in general as soon as it was ascertained?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any factors peculiar to Dallas which delayed the determination of the motorcade route?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The only factor that really did hold up a final decision was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and where he would deliver the speech. There was a controversy between the Governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place for the President to give the address. The Governor felt very strongly on it. And we finally acquiesced to his views. But I would think that came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite dramatically.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us if there was any consideration at all given to omitting Dallas as a stop on the trip in Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think so; no. I would think that the President would not have--once he had agreed to go to three or four other cities, that he could not possibly go to Texas and avoid Dallas. It would cause more controversy--and it would not accomplish for us what really was the long-range purpose of the visit.

Mr. SPECTER. And the long-range purpose was what, sir?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Was to attempt to in some way bridge the gap between the two political groups in Texas who were at odds, and to assist the President and prepare for the 1964 campaign as best he could at this period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's reaction towards Dallas generally, if you know, with respect to the current publicity about, say, Ambassador Stevenson's reception there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he was not in anyway concerned about it. I think that the President was a very charitable man. He felt that really the picture of Dallas as painted--and as a reflection of their press in many ways--was not the real picture of Dallas; that they were Americans like everybody else, that there were good and bad, and the fact that 50 shouting people didn't portray the city of Dallas. He had been there in the 1960 campaign when the Vice President had been spit upon, and the President received one of the finest receptions he ever got. He didn't carry the city. They opposed him. But they were not particularly different than anybody else. And that wouldn't concern him, and I think, very frankly, the more difficult it was the more he liked to go there. But I think he generally felt that the loud noises emanating from Dallas were a very small minority, and so reflected.

Mr. SPECTER. Had there been any discussion about limiting the trip to Texas to a 1 day venture?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect any. I do know one of the original thoughts was that he go to this dinner in Austin, which was a political dinner. Whether there was any consideration in some other people's minds that he just go in for the dinner and leave, I know he, number 1, would not consider it.

Mr. SPECTER. Why not?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He would not consider it because he had a great aversion to going into any place to a fundraising political dinner in which he felt that the people that were there were not really representative of the people, but were politically committed people, where it was a business meeting. And he thought this reflected to some degree on the office of the Presidency, that on his only visit to Texas, or any other State in 3 years, that he came to raise money for a political party, that he owed to the people to expose himself to them. So he he felt it was a duty of the Presidency to expose himself to the public. So he would not go to any place on a purely--but he certainly considered there were some political problems in Texas--that would also be in his judgment a bad political mistake. So I don't think there was ever any question that he would go some place else.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you accompany the President on all phases of the trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was with him when he left. The only time that I was not with him was at Congressman Thomas' dinner. He went to the dinner. We ate at the hotel and went directly to the airport.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you depart, then, from Washington, on that trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we left that morning by helicopter from the lawn. I think the records show it is 10:45. But the schedule was on time, certainly arriving there, and, as I recollect, we were on time pretty much the whole way as the schedule would reflect.

Mr. SPECTER. And from the helicopter at the White House lawn, where was your first stop by helicopter?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We stopped and boarded Air Force 1 at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the time of 11 a.m., as reflected in the records, be accurate as your point of departure, then, from Andrews Air Force Base?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I would think it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. And your first stop in Texas was what?

Mr. O'DONNELL. San Antonio.

Mr. SPECTER. Arrival time of 1:30 p.m.--would that be an accurate time of arrival, within a few minutes, say, of when you actually set down in San Antonio?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think that is right. As I say, we were on schedule, and the schedule would indicate we were due to arrive at 1:30.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the activities at San Antonio, Tex?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We motorcaded through San Antonio and went to the Aerospace Medical Center, where the President made a speech, and from there to a second airport. We had moved Air Force 1 from one airfield to another, on the other side of the city.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Aerospace Center, was there a dedication there of some new facilities?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other public appearance, then, besides the one you mentioned, in San Antonio?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. To where did you go from San Antonio?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We flew to Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you arrive in Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would have to look at the record.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it late in the afternoon on November 21?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Late in the afternoon, I would think around 4 or 5 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the activities in Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We drove from the airfield into the hotel. As I recollect, there were very large crowds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a motorcade procession, also?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Motorcade; and particularly as we got in downtown Houston, the crowds were very large, and very enthusiastic. Getting in the hotel was somewhat of a chore.

Mr. SPECTER. What public appearances did the President then make in Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The President spoke at the appreciation dinner for Congressman Thomas. The records will show the location. I did not accompany him. And I went directly from the hotel to the airport, and met him as he got aboard the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the Presidential party depart from Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would have to guess again. I would think around 10:30 or 11 o'clock. The alternative was staying overnight in Houston, getting in early in the morning--or getting in to Fort Worth late at night, and allowing the President a little more rest, and we selected going to Fort Worth that night.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the public appearances made by the President, then, in Fort Worth, Tex.?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He spoke at 8 o'clock that morning at a breakfast which was given by the business community, as I remember, came back up to his room, chatted for a few minutes, went back down. It had been raining. The sun had just come out. He went out and spoke to a group assembled in the parking lot and went back and departed for--came back upstairs, we chatted for a few minutes again, and then came back down and departed for Carswell.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did the President travel out of Fort Worth?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He left Fort Worth in an open car, traveled by car to Carswell.

Mr. SPECTER. And from Carswell, what was his mode of travel?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Air Force 1 to Love Field, Dallas?

Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions on the arrival at Love Field in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The weather was clear, sunny, excellent weather.

Mr. SPECTER. What decision had been made as to whether to have an open car in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The decision had been made to have an open--if the weather was good, he would ride in an open car.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall who made that decision?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would make that decision under normal circumstances. But it was almost an automatic decision, that whenever the weather was clear, he preferred to ride in an open car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall at approximately what time the Presidential party arrived at Love Field, Tex.--Love Field, Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think it would be around 11, 11:15. We were on time. We always allowed a few minutes at the airport, because he always shook hands with the crowd. So we left--my recollection is that we departed from Love Field approximately according to the schedule.

Mr. SPECTER. What were President Kennedy's activities at Love Field?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He had no scheduled activities. It was a matter of assembling the motorcade. He got off Air Force 1, and he went over to the crowd that was gathered around the rail, shook hands, went up and down.

Mr. SPECTER. What type of a crowd was it with respect to size?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was a large crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us how the motorcade was constituted with respect to the general number of the cars and the way they were lined up, if you recall, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I can't go more than--I got into the second car, and I didn't really look behind me. There was some controversy as to what Congressman sat in what car. We had a lot of Congressmen with us and a lot of dignitaries, and there was a lot of juggling around, which Mr. O'Brien was more involved with than I was, as to where Senator Yarborough and the Vice President and the Congressman sat. But it was a lengthy motorcade, more lengthy than normal. We always tried to keep them down as much as possible. But because of the number of Congressmen and the dignitaries involved.

Mr. SPECTER. How many cars were there ahead of yours?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think there was a scout car, which was the lead, the President's vehicle, and I was in the car right behind him, in the Secret Service followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else besides you was in that car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. David Powers was with me. All the rest were agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether anything unusual occurred on the trip from Love Field down to the center of Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I thought it was normal--the crowds, going through the suburbs, were, I would say, from medium to heavy for that trip. I noted they were mostly white collar, mostly industrial places we passed by which I would say were highly technical. Therefore, the crowd reflected a middle to an upper class type. They were not unfriendly nor terribly enthusiastic. They waved. But were reserved, I thought.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you seated in the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was seated in the front jump seat--the jump seat.

Mr. SPECTER. On the left-hand side or the right-hand side?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Left-hand side.

Mr. SPECTER. And who sat on your immediate right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Powers.

Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were there in front of you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, there were the normal two or sometimes three in the front seat. I would not be clear as to how many there were. I would think there were about--just guessing--seven or eight agents in the car. Some on the running board, some seated, depending on the speed of the motorcade, or the activity.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a front seat in the car, immediately ahead of you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that occupied by Secret Service agents?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about immediately to your rear? Was there a rear seat?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a rear seat. There were agents in that--again depending on the speed of the motorcade they were either on the running board, or as it slows up and the crowds got larger the agents would get on the running board. But as it moved along rather rapidly, as it did on the way in, they were seated most of the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the President's automobile made any stops en route from the airport into the downtown area?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect, clearly. I would be surprised if it did not. But I don't have any clear recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it a usual practice for the President to make a stop on the motorcade?

Mr. O'DONNELL. If the crowds got too large, he would stop, or if he saw some child had gone to some great extreme with a sign, he would sometimes stop. Usually unless the crowds were particularly heavy, or indicated a need for a stop, he would not stop.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd in downtown Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The nature of the crowd was extremely heavy, one of the heaviest I have seen in any American city.

Mr. SPECTER. How did they compare with the crowds during the 1960 campaign in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think probably heavier. But very close. They were both very large crowds, very enthusiastic. I think, as I have always noticed, to the President and candidate there is a different aura. But that would be the only difference I would notice in the crowd. There was a little bit more respect--still the same enthusiasm. At the last trip in Dallas he stopped the motorcade every 5 minutes--they mobbed the car. There was none of that. But they were in the middle of the street and off the sidewalks. So there was a very narrow lane to progress through. But they were still very orderly, but cheerful.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any specific reaction to the Dallas crowd in terms of what your expectation might have been about Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I was pleased with it. As a politician, I was particularly pleased with it. I thought we had accomplished what we had come to Dallas to do, was, one, to establish the fact that the average person living in that city was no different than any other American, and that they respected and admired their President. And I felt one of the greatest things that does occur of a political nature is the Congressmen and the political leaders who had also been reading the same newspaper about how unpopular he was, it is good for them to see it really is not true, it is a reflection of a very small minority, and that the President of the United States was extremely popular in Dallas.

And that was the basic reason we went. And as we finished through the business section of town, that was my pleased impression.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the scene when you left the Main Street of downtown Dallas, with respect specifically to the presence of a large building which was immediately ahead of the motorcade?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I did not. I was looking at the crowd. And I frankly didn't look at the building, except when there were people in the windows. And as we made that turn, I had been standing--I remember I sat down. And as far as I was concerned, that was the end--we were then going to the luncheon--and I didn't notice any building at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the identity of the specific plaza there, being known as Dealey Plaza?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was not. I afterward have reflected on it many times.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us what occurred then as you made that turn away from the crowded downtown Dallas area and headed toward the plaza area.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I sat down. I remember saying to Dave Powers that it was a fantastic crowd. He agreed.

We turned. I remember the overpass. And then the shots occurred--which, at that time, I did not know were shots. My first impression was it was a firecracker. And then either somebody said, "He has been hit," or I noticed the slump--he had been waving out the right side of the car, and I noticed him slump over toward Mrs. Kennedy, and I realized then that they had been shots. But as fast as that realization occurred, I saw the third shot hit. It was such a perfect shot--I remember I blessed myself. I was rather convinced that was a fatal blow.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say you made a turn, which way did the motorcade turn?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Turned to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how far behind the Presidential vehicle was the followup car at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My guess would be 5 to 8 feet, the normal--when there are large crowds, pressing in on the side, they try to stay close. It was moving at a steady pace. The crowds were orderly. So he was at a normal--I would presume they were just about turning to step up the speed a little bit, because there would be no crowds from there.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's vehicle at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would think we probably were going between 15 and 20, up until that moment, and I think he probably had just begun to accelerate probably up to about 25, somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the Secret Service followup car completed its left-hand turn prior to the time the shots rang out?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My recollection is they had, just about.

I don't recollect a separation of this nature. It was a slight sloping turn, as I remember, and I thought we were right together.

Mr. SPECTER. So that when you just indicated with your hands, you were showing a pattern of the Secret Service car having made the turn and straightened up immediately behind the Presidential vehicle proceeding down the street?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That is my impression.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the overpass in sight at that time, did you say?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. On which side of the car was President Kennedy seated?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. The extreme right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The extreme right.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was he doing with his hands prior to the time of the shooting, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was waving. We had just left the mass of crowds. But as we turned on the grass plot there were four or five people there, and I believe he waved to them.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a right-handed wave?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Governor Connally seated with respect to the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was directly in front of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not the President's seat was raised or was it in its extreme low position at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the President's practice was as to whether or not the seat would be raised?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know that, either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the controls were on the Presidential automobile for raising or lowering the President's seat?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there in all?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Three.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total time which elapsed from the first shot to the last shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would say 5 to 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third one.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your reaction as to the source of the shots, if you had one?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came from the right rear. That would be my best judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any reaction by any of the other people around in any specific direction?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The agents all turned to the rear. I would think, watching the reaction of the President when the shot--the first shot hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from the rear. I think any experienced agent would make that assumption immediately.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the reaction of the agents which you have referred to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The reaction I note would be right rear. And, again, looking at the manner of the President's movement, I would think you would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was there about the President's movement which leads you to that conclusion?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was leaning out waving. He may have just been withdrawing his hand. And the shot hit him, and threw him to the left. He slumped on Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was not the third shot. Whether it was the first or second, I would not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it could have been the second shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I do. If I had to pick one of the two, I think it might have been the second shot. It seemed to be--but, again, it is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction of Governor Connally in the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I saw the Governor turn toward the President. The President, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind the other. And the only reason I would even notice it was when the President had slumped to the left, the Governor then turned, and he was in my view. Otherwise, he would not have been. But the President slumped over, and, therefore, the Governor just turned and I could see him. I had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When the third shot came. The President was hit. The motorcade accelerated. And one of the agents said, "The Governor has been hit, too."

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that President Kennedy shifted to the left, then, could you see the Governor at all from your position?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Depending on how each one moved, normally, no. The President was directly behind the Governor. But if the President was over to the right waving, then you could see the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. On the President's left when the Governor----

Mr. O'DONNELL. If the President was all the way to the right, the Governor, who was in front of him, would be visible to us. If they were both sitting, they were not. But they did confer back and forth. So the Governor was visible upon occasion. But when he turned around, it was really the first time I had been able to see him clearly.

Mr. SPECTER. At a time, though, when the President was on the extreme right-hand side, waving, would the Governor then have been visible on the President's left or on his right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He would be on his left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the jump seat situated, if you know, to the precise front of the President, to the right, to the left, or what?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What reaction did you observe, if any, as to Mrs. Kennedy during the shots?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he slumped on her. She appeared to be immediately aware that something had happened. She turned toward him. And then the third shot hit. Obviously, she then knew what happened. She turned, looking at the backup car. Meanwhile Agent Hill had gotten off the car and started running up. She was clambering toward the back, and reached his hand, and he was on the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reactions in the President's car other than those which you have now testified about?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. At what point did the motorcade accelerate?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It accelerated, I would think, right about at the time that Agent Hill grabbed onto the back of the car, which would be just a few seconds after the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did the motorcade proceed en route to the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Very rapidly. I would guess between 60 and 70 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long did it take for the motorcade to get to the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would guess 5 to 10 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's car was the followup car in which you were riding at the time the President's car arrived at the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Right behind it, 5 or 6 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We got out of the car. David Powers got out of the car, went over to the President, and was not visible to me, and was crying, he laid on him. And then they came and took the President--that was the first time I really realized that Governor Connally had been badly hurt, as they also carried Governor Connally out.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy doing at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I believe somebody had helped her out and taken her into the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a coat over President Kennedy at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When they took him out, I was standing maybe 3 or 4 feet behind him. There was a wall of people between myself. I didn't see him, nor did I look.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the President out of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the Governor out of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. By what means were they taken away from the vicinity of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think they had stretchers. As I say, I was far enough back at that moment that they were milling around, and so many people between my vision and what they were doing, I did not see. I could not be accurate on that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I went into the hospital and went right to Mrs. Kennedy. She was seated right outside the room where they had placed the President. I would say she was in a total daze, and as yet not knowing whether there was any hope or not.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities in the period of time immediately following that moment?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I stayed with her for a few minutes, and then no one seemed to be able to get any conclusive answer as to the President's condition. As I said, I had seen the shots so clearly, I had a pretty clear view. The first thing I had done--I asked them to get a priest, which they did immediately. I went into the room. There were four or five doctors there. Dr. Burkley I think was there. And I said, "I think we better get a definite answer one way or another--is there any hope at all?" I was unable to get a conclusive answer. But I think I got the answer I needed.

I don't know how Mrs. Kennedy was finally told. I may have told her about at that moment. Between the time and the time I knew definitely, I went to see the Vice President.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson was with him and an agent who at the time I did not know. I believe it is Youngblood.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was in a room across the hall. You had to go directly across what would probably be the reception room, which was open to the public, and into another room. And I recollect I turned to my right, and he was over more or less in the corner with a screen. He was standing on the right, Mrs. Johnson, I believe, was sitting, the agent was standing at the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations, if any, did you have with then-Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I told him it looked very, very serious, and in my opinion that it was probably fatal. I hadn't been able to get a totally definite answer, but that I would let him know as soon as it was definite--but it looked pretty black.

I then left him. I don't recollect that he even commented. I left him and went back to Mrs. Kennedy, and within a very few minutes they confirmed the fact that the President was dead.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As soon as I was assured that he was dead, and it was definite, I went back to the Vice President and informed him the President was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there as fast as he could. We had a general discussion. The President's first words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken, and that we then discussed whether one of the possible movements might be to move the Presidential aircraft from Love Field to Carswell, where no route of departure could be laid out, and where there would be military security.

We discussed that. It was my opinion that his best movement was to move directly to Love Field. In fact, the routes would not be available anyway, because this was not a schedule--the departure from the hospital to the field would not be covered, if that were a possibility. And that it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, where he was under security and got aboard one of the aircraft.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion about his taking the presidential plane, AF-1, as opposed to AF-2?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson look to you in any way for a recommendation on his subsequent plans in terms of your being then in charge of the presidential party?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was my impression that he did, that he, with the President gone--that he felt I was--had to assume a position of responsibility, both with regard to Mrs. Kennedy and as to himself. He asked me, as I recall--he asked me for my advice as to his departure and used the words, "I am in your hands now," at some point in the conversation.

But I did get the impression that he wanted official--that isn't the proper word--but that his movements should be approved by all concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all the conversation you had at that time with then-Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Next after I left the Vice President, I went back to Mrs. Kennedy. On the way through the lobby I noted the newspapermen were clamoring for information. I met Kilduff. He said, "Should we announce it?" And I said I think that is a decision that can only be made by the President "You better ask him." So that was the last I saw of Kilduff.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Kilduff?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He is the assistant press secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Kilduff?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Malcolm Kilduff.

I then went back to Mrs. Kennedy, who was in a very understandably distraught condition. It was my opinion--I tried to in some way imply that she might leave and come with us, at least to get her out of that room. She was covered with blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Which room was she in then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She was in the same room. She had not moved. She was sitting near the door.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the room where the President was treated by the Dallas doctors?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; there is a little corridor. There were swinging doors. He was inside the swing door. She was not in the presence of the body.

Mr. SPECTER. What was her response to you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Her response to me was she would not leave her husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would not. The doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form of sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband.

I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was that we move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have arrived at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner.

So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get a casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport and go to Washington.

This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with the casket. I remember just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there was a little room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought the casket in, because I thought that might be the final blow. And we did, and--but she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No, I want to watch it all." And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us for our attempt at being compassionate.

And then they took it in, and put the body in the casket.

We were then all prepared to go. The agents told me the ambulance was ready, and they were prepared to move.

We--the casket was brought out about halfway, and a gentleman arrived who said that we would not be allowed to remove the body from the hospital until the necessary papers had been signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who he was?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect who he was. I think he was--maybe from the coroner's office. My assumption is he would be.

But he took this position. We asked--I don't recollect who transmitted the message--that they speed this up as much as possible, and give us some idea how long it took to accomplish this. And they went out into this other little room where there were some telephones, and proceeded to call whoever it was necessary to call to get this permission.

We waited about 10 or 15 minutes, and Dr. Burkley and General McHugh were in the room, and Mr. O'Brien at some time. I went out again and asked them if they had an answer, and nobody seemed to be able to answer the question as to how long it might take, and whether it was a week or an hour.

So I was getting more concerned about Mrs. Kennedy's state all the time--although she appeared composed, as she had from the beginning.

Then a gentleman did arrive who has later been identified for me as a Judge Brown, who was on the telephone calling someone. It had been my assumption that upon his arrival that he had the power to permit us to depart. Dr. Burkley was talking to him in a very agitated manner. And the gentleman was very calm and cool and collected. If my recollection is clear, he said something to the effect that as of now this was just a homicide case, and there were certain things that had to be carried out, one of which I interpreted as an autopsy.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it, Mr. O'Donnell, if you recall, who said this was just another homicide case?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My feeling is it was Brown, but I really would not be--in the excitement of the moment, the discussion of the autopsy, the signing of a certificate from the hospital, and the treatment of this as a homicide case, I would not want to be unfair and misinterpret who might have said it.

My recollection is it was indicated to us that the President is dead, the hospital has to perform certain functions, and the law must be met, no matter who it is, at this moment. In my own mind, when they said autopsy, I realized we were talking not about hours, but perhaps even days, which was an impossible situation for Mrs. Kennedy.

I talked to Dr. Burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could have a doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, and that we would bring him immediately to the Naval Hospital, and that they could perform whatever necessary chores, and there would be no separation physically from the hospital and the performance of their autopsy.

They refused to consider this.

I in my own mind determined that we had no alternative but to just depart. So I went back in the room. I told Mr. O'Brien, and whoever else was assembled there, that we were going to leave. I notified the Secret Service and General McHugh, and told them to get ready to depart. We went in and took the body out. Mrs. Kennedy stood right behind it, I think totally unaware of the problems that were then existing, so perhaps confused as to the speed with which we were attempting to depart.

We pushed the casket out through the hall. This first gentleman that had come in, who, I presume, was from the coroner's office, shouted very loudly, "You can't do that, you can't leave here now." Nobody paid any attention to him. We pushed out through another set of swinging doors. I remember a Catholic priest was between this and the doorway, and was praying. It was most disconcerting because we were concerned at all times that some moment they would say stop, and I hated to think what might happen to Mrs. Kennedy if she had to go back and go through this all over again. So we brushed them all aside and came out the same way we had come in, through the same doors.

There was an ambulance there. Andy Berger was seated in the driver's seat. Several agents were there. The body was put into the ambulance, Mrs. Kennedy got in with it. We climbed into a car alongside of it, and we took off for the airport. I told the agents if they would signal ahead, that there were agents at the airfield, and that as soon as we came through the gate, they were to close the gate and let nobody else in.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the gate at the airfield?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall approximately what time you left the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I haven't the vaguest idea.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea how long it was after you arrived at the hospital that you left the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I wouldn't--it was a couple of hours. But I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long did the trip take you from the hospital back to the airport?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I am guessing totally at time. I would think it seemed about 15 minutes. It wasn't a long period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The drive was uneventful. We went through the gate. We arrived at the Air Force--I didn't know whether it was 1 or 2, to be honest, until I saw the members of the crew. And they unloaded the casket. I remember they had a very, very difficult time getting it up, because of the narrowness of the ramp. It was very difficult for the Secret Service. It seemed at moments it might almost tumble; it was frightening.

We got on the plane. And the seats had been taken out on the left side, so they could lay the casket down. The casket was placed down. I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not President Johnson had been sworn in at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. At that time I didn't know President Johnson was on the plane. I did not know whether he had been. Subsequently I realized he had not been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific discussion, to your knowledge, or consideration, to your knowledge, of holding the Presidential plane until Mrs. Kennedy and President Kennedy's body arrived on that plane before departing for Washington?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There has been no discussion of that to my knowledge. Once the President--the Vice President left, I left him, I had not seen him again. I had been notified he had departed, I had been notified that he arrived, and that was the last I heard of it, until I got on the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, after arriving on the airplane?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I say, I told General McHugh to have the plane take off, still all of us under the assumption or apprehension that at some moment we either might not be granted clearance to take off, or that the hospital may have in some way gotten the police to intercept us--the difficulty of that to Mrs. Kennedy was incalculable. I was in a highly desperate strait to get that airplane in the air and back to Washington. As I say, I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off.

There was a delay of 2 or 3 minutes, and nothing happened. So I headed up for the cockpit myself, and I ran into McHugh in the meantime who said that President Johnson was aboard, and that he had ordered the pilot to delay, to hold up until he was sworn in. That was the first I knew he was aboard.

I would like to correct that. I must have known he was aboard, because I am sure he must have greeted Mrs. Kennedy as she came aboard. And he and Mrs. Johnson. But I don't have a clear recollection of that in my own mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when President Johnson was sworn in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived back on AF-1, what did you do between that time and the time the plane was airborne?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson took Mrs. Kennedy into the President's room on Air Force 1. I remember she was reluctant to even go in there, but she persuaded her to. And----

Mr. SPECTER. Who was reluctant to go in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. And I went up, and the President and I carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that I had asked for the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion between him and me. He said to me that he had called the Attorney General, and that the Attorney General had indicated that it was, if not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn in prior to the aircraft taking off. I didn't describe what I saw as the problems. I realized it was an inevitable delay. So I don't believe I commented on it. I just listened to him. We sat there.

I went up and talked to the pilot, to make sure they didn't let anybody on the plane, or put the ramps down for anybody, except the judge, under any circumstances. About 10 or 15 minutes later the judge arrived and the swearing in occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon after the swearing in was the plane airborne, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was almost immediate--as soon as he was sworn in, the plane taxied out and took off.

Mr. SPECTER. On the return flight to Washington, where did you sit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I sat with Mrs. Kennedy almost all the way. We came back--Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Brien, and I stayed in the back compartment. And then Mrs. Kennedy and I--I sat down with her, we sat that way all the way back. The President called me up on one or two occasions and asked me to stay up in the cabin, wanted to talk to me, but I felt I had to stay with Mrs. Kennedy. So I sat with her the whole trip.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We reminisced.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have anything to eat on the trip back?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I think we both had a drink. I tried to get her to take a good strong drink. I had not much luck.

Mr. SPECTER. She drank part but not all?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I recollect, she just wanted to talk. She talked all the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then after your arrival in Washington, D.C.? Or did you come back to Andrews Air Force Base?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made that decision, by the way?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. That the autopsy should be performed?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy man, she picked Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She did.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made the decision there would be an autopsy, if you know?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know who made the decision. I just think we all agreed--we arrived at Bethesda. The Attorney General was there. I think it was just our assumption that this was a necessary part.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. By car.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time did you arrive at Andrews, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't remember. It was dark. That is all I do recall.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long was the car trip from Andrews to Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 45 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after your arrival at Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When we arrived at Bethesda, we went immediately to some room, reception room, where the family was.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We stayed there, I would think, until 3 or 4 in the morning. We wanted to stay there until Mrs. Kennedy got back to the house.

We drove back to the White House with her.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you leave her at the White House?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 4 or 5 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. After that, did you go home?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Who all was present with the family at Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Powers--I don't recollect anybody else outside the family.

Mr. SPECTER. Who from the family was there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I remember, Jean Kennedy, the Attorney General and his wife, I think Pat and Eunice. There were some other people. Really there were two--there was one room inside, in which they were in, and there was one out in the reception.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on the balance of the itinerary in Texas after the planned luncheon at the Trade Mart at Dallas on November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We were leaving Dallas and going to Austin, and Governor Connally had arranged one or two receptions, and then a large dinner in the evening, a fundraising dinner, and then the President was going to depart from there to the Vice President's ranch, and stay with them through Saturday, and then come back to Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the estimated time of arrival at the LBJ Ranch about 10 p.m., on the evening of November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be about right.

Mr. SPECTER. With the plan then being to depart for Washington on the 23d, Saturday?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's attitude, in a general way, about Presidential protection--that is, President Kennedy's attitude about Presidential protection, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, his general attitude was that the Secret Service--that there was no protection available to a President of a democracy such as the United States from a demented person who was willing to risk his own life; that if someone wanted to kill a President of the United States, who in a sense wears two hats--he is the leader of a political party as well as our Chief Executive--and by the nature of our system must mingle with crowds, must ride through our cities, and must expose himself to the American people--that the Secret Service would not be, other than the protection that they provide by the screening processes prior to the actual carrying out of a political trip--would not be able to guarantee 100 percent protection, considering one has to mingle with crowds of 50,000 or 100,000 people, and mingle with them at handshaking distance.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever discussed the dangers inherent in a motorcade, for example, with the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not specifically in a motorcade. I don't think the President's view was--very frankly, we had discussed this general subject. We used to go on trips, and sit around in the evening and this would come up.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's view expressed during those conversations?

Mr. O'DONNELL. His view was that a demented person who was willing to sacrifice his own life could take the President's life. And that if it were to happen, I think his general view was it would happen in a crowded situation. I don't think it entered his mind that it might happen in the fashion as of a motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his reaction to that risk?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think he felt that was a risk which one assuming the office of the Presidency of the United States inherited. It didn't disturb him at all.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the last conversation that you had with him on that general topic?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The last conversation I had with him on that general topic was the morning of the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the conversation occur?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The conversation took place in his room, with Mrs. Kennedy and myself, perhaps a half hour before he left the Hotel Texas to depart for Carswell Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. That was in Fort Worth?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That was in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. And tell us, as nearly as you can recollect, exactly what he said at that time, please.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, as near as I can recollect he was commenting to his wife on the function of the Secret Service, and his interpretation of their role once the trip had commenced, in that their main function was to protect him from crowds, and to see that an unruly or sometimes an overexcited crowd did not generate into a riot, at which the President of the United States could be injured. But he said that if anybody really wanted to shoot the President of the United States, it was not a very difficult job--all one had to do was get a high building some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could do to defend against such an attempt on the President's life.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy's reaction to that philosophy?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think--I think she had not quite thought of this at all. She certainly had not thought of it in this way. But I think the general tenor of the conversation was that she agreed that this was--in this democracy, this is inherent.

Mr. SPECTER. What had her reaction been to the trip to Texas up to that point?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She had enjoyed it. She had not been a girl who had loved campaigning. And I thought at the moment, at that very minute, that for the first time--the President and I were discussing a forthcoming trip to the west coast, and he had asked her if she would come, and she said she would be delighted to come, and she would like to go from now on.

The President was delighted. We were all delighted.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she been on any political trip before this trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; she had not been on a political trip with us for quite awhile.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the trip immediately prior to the one to Texas that she was last on, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the 1960 campaign?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She was pregnant, as I recollect, during the 1960 campaign. She had been pregnant just prior to this. So that--and most of the other trips had been really the sort of thing that was difficult for Mrs. Kennedy to go on. But she had never evidenced to me quite as much interest in going on a--continuing to go on these trips, as she was after this.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she ever been to Texas prior to November 21, 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. After the assassination, has she ever made any comment to you about that conversation which you had in the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I have never dared bring that conversation up to Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, do you have any knowledge, aside from the factors which you have set forth during your testimony today, concerning anyone involved in the shooting of the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I have no comment.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you have no knowledge?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I have no knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President's Commission in any way in its job of investigating all factors relating to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. One other detail, Mr. O'Donnell.

Did you have occasion to deal with an particular individuals from the city of Dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, under our practice, if you care to, we can make this transcript available to you to read and to sign.

Would you prefer that, or would you just as soon waive the signature, and have the transcript in its final form as it comes from the court reporter here?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would like to read it.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We will make it available to you for reading and signature, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE F. O'BRIEN

The testimony of Lawrence F. O'Brien was taken at 11 a.m., on May 26, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, DC., by Mr. Francis W. H. Adams, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. ADAMS. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do.

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Brien, the purpose of this deposition is to get from you your knowledge of the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963.

I would like to start way back, if I may, at the point of the conception of the trip, the origin of the trip. How far back was that before November 22?

Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is the contemplation of the trip to Texas was back some, perhaps, months before the actual trip.

However, I should quickly add that many discussions took place about potential trips to all parts of the country at some future time, to some degree in the political context. The President, No. 1, enjoyed getting out to meet the people; and, secondly, over a period of time we had anticipated the President would travel rather extensively when the opportunity presented itself. But the difficulty in pinning anything like that down specifically in advance is the obvious difficulty of scheduling any travel by the President, because of the duties of the office and the obvious day to day changes in the problem.

Mr. ADAMS. But you, yourself, were concerned and involved in discussions looking towards this?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; Mr. O'Donnell was responsible for the handling of the specifics of trips. He would engage in discussions with the President and projections of possible trips of one sort or another. In his role as Appointments Secretary, of course, he was constantly discussing with the President invitations of all kinds that came across his desk.

The Vice President had expressed an interest for some time in a possible trip to Texas.

Mr. ADAMS. Had he expressed that interest to you?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically. It became generally understood in our discussions that he was interested, the President was interested, Mr. O'Donnell was charged with the responsibility of maintaining a day to day relationship in this area.

Mr. ADAMS. At that time, what was your official title?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Special Assistant to the President for Congressional Relations.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. A trip of this nature, as many trips within the United States, would involve the inclusion of Members of Congress, appropriate members of the delegation, and what-have-you. So that would be pretty much my involvement in any arrangements for a trip of this nature.

Mr. ADAMS. To put it another way, you did not yourself have the responsibility for the specific planning?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not at all.

Mr. ADAMS. And were you involved in making--in the discussions which led to the final decision about this Texas trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. There were some discussions that involved me as to the specific stops on the trip, because there immediately you would have the matter of the congressional districts that would be involved in the stops, and matters of that nature.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you happen to know how it came to pass that Mrs. Kennedy went along on that trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. I think Mr. O'Donnell would be the proper person to direct that to.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have anything to do with the security or protection arrangements for the President?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No.

Mr. ADAMS. Neither on that trip nor at any time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No.

Mr. ADAMS. This didn't come within your duties at all?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, is it fair to say that the substantial purpose of this trip was political?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say--in my belief it was not the substantial purpose. An invitation that had been extended by the Congressman Albert Thomas' dinner committee, and I assume arrangements that were appropriate for that time for a dinner in Austin contributed to the decision on that particular time for this trip. This would be typical of the situation, as I recall it, where you knew there would be an occasion when the President would visit Texas.

He was interested in visiting Texas, as he was other sections of the country. And this sort of fell into line. It presented to some degree an opportunity to make the trip at that time.

He was particularly fond of Congressman Thomas. And he had had a close-working relationship with him in the Congress.

I, of course, became very well acquainted with Congressman Thomas, because of my role representing the White House with the Congress. And I am sure that was a contributing factor. He was most interested in attending this dinner to honor him.

Mr. ADAMS. I suppose it would be fair to say that almost any activity of the President is in some measure political.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say that is perhaps true.

But he had been interested, also, in having an opportunity to visit the Space Center particularly. And he had watched the development of the space activity in Texas with great interest.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, going back to the time that you left Washington on that trip, did you leave with the President?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did.

Mr. ADAMS. From the White House?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did.

Mr. ADAMS. By helicopter?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what was the time--do you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was approximately forenoon, about 10:45, from the White House lawn, in the President's helicopter.

Mr. ADAMS. And where did you go in the helicopter?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We went to Andrews Field.

Mr. ADAMS. And did you go onboard Air Force 1?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did.

Mr. ADAMS. And you went from there to Austin?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We went from there to San Antonio.

Mr. ADAMS. I am sorry. I misspoke myself. San Antonio?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Arriving in San Antonio about when?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I think you would have to refer to the record on that.

Mr. ADAMS. Some time early afternoon? Some time in the afternoon of that day?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I remember it was, weatherwise, an uneventful trip. The weather was fine. There is no reason to suggest we didn't arrive at pretty much the established time.

Mr. ADAMS. Then, just briefly, what happened in San Antonio?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, there was a motorcade in San Antonio to the Aerospace Center for a ceremony. And, as I recall, the ceremony was relatively brief. The President spoke briefly. And then he inspected the installation.

The overall elapsed time I don't recall--perhaps an hour or an hour and a half.

And then we proceeded back to the airport for the trip to Fort Worth.

Mr. ADAMS. What happened in Fort Worth?

Mr. O'BRIEN. In Fort Worth, as I recall, at the airport there was--from the airport into the hotel in Fort Worth, it was rather a lengthy trip. It also involved crowds at various stops.

The hour--I am sorry I cannot recall the hour of arrival--but it was, as we say, an offbeat hour. It was rather surprising to have the interest shown crowdwise as we went in. It delayed the motorcade into the hotel and outside of the hotel there was a large crowd of people.

Mr. ADAMS. What was the reaction of that crowd? Was that a friendly group?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would describe it as friendly; yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened next, after you arrived at the hotel?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and his party checked into the hotel for the night. I do not recall any other official activity.

Mr. ADAMS. And what happened next?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, the following morning the President arose early to attend a breakfast. As I recall, it was a civic breakfast, sponsored by the local civic group or groups.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mrs. Kennedy attend that, also, as you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. She arrived at the breakfast, as I recall, following the President. The President spoke at the breakfast, and received gifts, and Mrs. Kennedy received a gift. I recall one of the gifts to the President was a Stetson. I recall that he did not try it on, but he appreciated receiving it.

Following the breakfast, he then spoke to a large crowd in front of the hotel, in the parking area opposite the hotel. There had been indications of bad weather. There was some rain, and then the rain became intermittent.

Upon completing his speech in the parking area, he returned upstairs to await the normal departure time.

When that time arrived, I went downstairs ahead of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and the Secret Service were determining whether or not they would have the top up or down on the car, because there was still an occasional drop of rain. However, a few minutes elapsed, and it appeared the weather would stay good for the drive to the airport. So he left, to the best of my recollection--I feel sure of this--in an open car to the airport from the hotel.

Mr. ADAMS. While we are on that subject, just to digress for a moment, what was his attitude toward riding in open cars?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was certainly his preference. He had always expressed a view that in our democracy a President should, whenever possible, be exposed to the people. And I think, also, he felt the people should be exposed to him. He always wanted to have the closest possible contact with people. And in that context his preference certainly at all times was an open car.

Mr. ADAMS. And these preferences were expressed to you personally?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not in the context of this particular situation.

Mr. ADAMS. No; I mean through the years.

Mr. O'BRIEN. But certainly we were totally aware of his desires in that area. And this had, of course, been his position not only in the United States but in trips outside the country.

Mr. ADAMS. Did he have--did he ever happen to express any particular view to you about motorcades, in terms of security?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I cannot recall any discussion I had with him in that regard.

Mr. ADAMS. Generally speaking, what was his position as expressed to you about security?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation in that area. There may have been. But certainly it was not of sufficient substance to be of any importance.

Mr. ADAMS. More specifically, did you ever discuss with him the possibility of assassination?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you ever discuss it with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, I took you off the track there. We will come back to Fort Worth, now, if we may.

When we left we were discussing his concluding his talk and going out to the airport in Fort Worth.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; there were, as I recall it, some bands en route. There was a great deal of excitement, enthusiasm. The weather had cleared. And it was a thoroughly pleasant trip out to the airport. The President obviously enjoyed it.

When we arrived at Air Force 1, he commented that that certainly had been a very interesting and pleasant morning.

Mr. ADAMS. And you went with him on Air Force 1?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. To Dallas--arriving late in the morning?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would estimate our arrival time at Dallas perhaps around 11:45. I know that we anticipated the motorcade through the streets of Dallas at the noon hour.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you yourself have anything to do with the planning of that motorcade?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you----

Mr. O'BRIEN. With the exception of insuring the inclusion in the motorcade of the Members of Congress and Senator Yarborough, that they be properly handled so that they would be included in open cars in the motorcade.

Mr. ADAMS. And it was part of your responsibility to see that--what cars they got into and all those arrangements?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would not say specifically that. They would have their car assignments. But for the most part, it was, if anything went wrong in the arrangements at some point, I would then be able to have a staff man correct it. So I would keep a close eye on the congressional people traveling with the President on a trip of that nature to be sure that they were well taken care of.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know when the information about the precise route was released to the press?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. Was there any thought--I withdraw that one, and ask you this: Do you know how it came about that Dallas was chosen as one of the cities to visit?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically, except that the size of the city, the concentration of population, would make it an obvious stop in Texas, if you were going to be in the State for 2 or 2-1/2 days. It is rather an obvious decision, that the Dallas area would be one of the stops.

Mr. ADAMS. As far as you know, there was never any consideration given to omitting Dallas?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not recall any.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, we are back now at Love Field. Would you tell us what happened there, as far as you observed it?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The President moved over to the fence, where a large crowd had gathered and shook the hands of several in the crowd, as the motorcade was awaiting his departure. All those in the motorcade proceeded to get into their cars. There was the usual amount of minor confusion--people hustling around to locate their car number, and I stood watching the President engaged in this activity, until he had gotten into his car, and a quick observation indicated to me that all those traveling with us had gotten into their cars.

I came very close, however, to being left at Love Field, because I delayed a little longer than I normally would, observing the scene, and, consequently, I had to make a little dash, myself, to hop into a car, to insure that I would travel into town.

Mr. ADAMS. When the President was greeting people along the fence there, was he accompanied by Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my recollection.

Mr. ADAMS. And do you recall at that time what the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson were doing?

Mr. O'BRIEN. They were engaged in the same activity, as I recall it.

Mr. ADAMS. I think you said this was a large crowd.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; it appeared to be a large crowd. The difficulty in judging a crowd from the ground at an airport is obvious. But as we came down the steps of the plane, looking out over the crowd, I had the impression that it was a large crowd for an airport stop, considering the fact the President was about to travel through the heart of the city.

Mr. ADAMS. Was it a friendly crowd?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It appeared to be friendly.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, getting to the motorcade, what was its organization, as you recall it, in terms of what cars at what places?

Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall it, following the usual police grouping in the front and sides, the President's car, Secret Service car, the Vice President's car, additional Secret Service car, wire service cars--I would think there probably were two--the VIP cars followed, and then following those cars, which was rather a long line of them, as I recall, were, I believe, one or two buses containing the press, traveling press.

Mr. ADAMS. When you refer to the VIP cars, those would include the Congressmen and the other gentlemen you referred to before?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. Senator Yarborough was in the car with the Vice President and Mrs. Johnson. The members of the congressional delegation traveling with us at that point were then in open cars--I would think there were perhaps four open cars to accommodate them.

Mr. ADAMS. Which one were you in?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I was in one of those open cars--specifically, I don't remember the order of the car, but I remember the passengers I joined. And as I pointed out, this was rather a quick hop into the car that I made at that point. Congressman Mahon was in the front seat with the driver. Congressman Rogers of Texas, now Judge Homer Thornberry of Texas, and me in the back seat.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know who the driver was?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, would you say that between you and the Vice President's followup car, there was more than one open car? As I get it--to put it another way to perhaps refresh your recollection--there was the Vice President's car, then there was a followup car behind that, and then came, as you have recalled, the open cars, in which you were seated in one of them.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, were you in the one directly behind the Vice President's followup car, or farther back?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not believe I was in the first VIP car, because, as I stated when I looked around and the motorcade started to move slightly, I moved toward a car handy to me. I would think that I was in the second or conceivably third open car, because, at that time, we had approximately 10 or 12 members of the Texas congressional delegation, and obviously we, therefore, had perhaps four open cars. I don't recall that I was in the first one--it was the second or third. I was not in the last one, either.

Mr. ADAMS. Were you assigned to a particular car, or would you just have taken any that would happen to be available?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I am sure I was assigned to a particular car. As a rule, I would be assigned to the first VIP car--VIP meaning as a rule, again, a congressional delegation. And in this instance, I don't recall the actual car assignment. And it was not unusual for me to not adhere strictly to the assignment.

Mr. ADAMS. And as the motorcade left Love Field--let me withdraw that and put it this way: You were seated in the back?

Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right back.

Mr. ADAMS. On the right-hand side?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. From where you were seated in that car, as you proceeded toward the city, could you see the President in his car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Only occasionally. There were occasions when you could not see him. Other times, depending on the turns in the road, and what-have-you, you would get a view of him. And there were times when he was upright in the car, and you could spot him.

But, generally speaking, I would say that I was concentrating on crowd attitude and size for the most part, going in toward the city.

Mr. ADAMS. From what you could see of the President's car, where was he seated?

On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. O'BRIEN. As I looked toward the car, he was seated on the right, with Governor Connally seated directly in front of him.

Mr. ADAMS. That is right. And Mrs. Connally----

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Connally on the jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. ADAMS. As the motorcade proceeded, could you at all times see the Vice President's car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; similarly, the photographers and others would often times block the view. The view of the President's car and the Vice President's car from where I was seated during the motorcade into and through the downtown Dallas was not a clear view. There was an obstructed view for the most part.

Mr. ADAMS. As you recall it, what were the seating arrangements in the Vice President's car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I know that Senator Yarborough, Mrs. Johnson, and the Vice President were seated in the rear of the car, and my recollection is that again the Vice President was on the right, Mrs. Johnson in the middle, Senator Yarborough on the left.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, as you went on in town, tell me about the crowds, if you would.

Mr. O'BRIEN. The crowds were large, unusually large for an extremely long--mileagewise--long trip into the city. I was impressed with the size of the crowd. The comment in our car, however, was that the crowd was rather reserved. As a matter of fact, Congressman Rogers, who, as I told you, was on the left rear, commented and called out from time to time in a jocular vein, "Hello", "Howdy", and suggested to them that they ought to smile and look perky, which we felt they were not doing during the course of the trip from the airport to the outskirts of the business area.

Mr. ADAMS. Up to that point, I suppose it was chiefly residential areas that you passed through?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed to be residential, and a great deal of small industry. The crowd looked to me to be middle to upper class business type to a great extent.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you know the city of Dallas yourself?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Had you been there before?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I had not.

Mr. ADAMS. Then as you got into the city, what was the nature of the crowds?

Mr. O'BRIEN. There was a tremendous change in crowd attitude, which, again, we commented on in the car. It seemed as though it occurred suddenly, but yet nevertheless in retrospect it did grow as you approached the business center. Then you found yourself going down a road, on both sides high buildings, confetti, the crowds out in the street, allowing just a narrow lane for the motorcade. And I would have to describe that crowd as enthusiastic. In fact, perhaps I should say wildly enthusiastic.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any special incidents of any kind on the way into town?

Mr. O'BRIEN. On rare occasion you saw a Goldwater sign, or some sign of that nature, conservative sign, I guess, but not many. It was not an unusual situation, as I recall.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember the motorcade stopping at anytime?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall the motorcade stopping, and it seems to me it was for the purpose of the President greeting some school children. However, I am not clear in my mind. I do recall a slowdown or an actual stopping on at least one occasion, and perhaps more than one occasion, between the airport and downtown Dallas. And I should add that those in the car in which I rode, to a man, commented on the great enthusiasm of the crowds in downtown area. I think they were making reference to it particularly because there was somehow or other--we all concluded this was a comparison that could be made with the crowds we had just gone by.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you recall the motorcade passing down Main Street in Dallas?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do.

Mr. ADAMS. And then do you recall it turning off Main Street?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do.

Mr. ADAMS. And then around onto Elm Street? You might not remember the names.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall the name of the street. But I recall distinctly a right turn.

Mr. ADAMS. And then another swerving turn?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. At that point, were there a lot of buildings or only a few?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed that when we made the turn off the Main Street, that the crowds petered out. It was a very normal termination of a parade route. And we just felt that while there were people on the streets, it was not the massive crowd that we had just passed over several blocks. And I believe that my reaction was this is about the end of the parade route, and we were about to just sort of settle back. There were people still on the street, but you could see that this route was--this parade route was about to terminate.

Mr. ADAMS. And as you came around those turns, did you hear any shots fired?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did.

Mr. ADAMS. Would you tell me as best you can whether at that time you could see the President's car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I could not.

Mr. ADAMS. Was that because your car had not turned the corner yet?

Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall, our car was about to make that turn, and it would seem to me, therefore, the President's car was in the process of making the left turn. I would think that approximately the time he was swinging on this curving left, we were swinging out of Main Street right. We heard the shots very clearly.

Mr. ADAMS. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Three.

Mr. ADAMS. Can you estimate for me the time interval between the first and the last shot?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe I can estimate the timing, but I can tell you about an exchange that took place in the car, from the first shot through the third shot.

Mr. ADAMS. Please do.

Mr. O'BRIEN. The first shot was fired. I just didn't conclude it was rifle fire. I was completely unsure. And I must have almost immediately said to the driver--I directed the question to him, for some unknown reason--"What was that?" The driver replied, "I do not know. They must be giving him a 21-gun salute." By the time the driver had concluded that sentence, we did not hear explosion No. 4. And it was apparent to us that No. 1 was not a 21-gun salute. I believe everyone in the car concluded it wasn't, in any event, because it just was not that kind of a sound. And we just had no idea of what had occurred at that moment.

Mr. ADAMS. Could you tell me your best recollection as to where the sounds appeared to come from?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I didn't have any idea specifically on the location of the sounds, and I do not recall that anyone in the car did.

Mr. ADAMS. Is it your recollection that these sounds were evenly spaced?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my impression. As I say, I apparently immediately engaged the driver in conversation after the first shot which forces me to conclude that there had to be a time between the first and second and third shots--because I simply--describing the exchange of my question and his answer, and his answer, I must say, probably was completed after the third shot. But he had started his answer to the question at about or just before the third shot.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, one way of getting at the time interval of all three shots, I suppose, would be your recollection that it all was encompassed in the time it took you to ask the question and the driver to answer.

Mr. O'BRIEN. At least in the time that it took me to ask the question and the driver to initiate the answer, but perhaps not complete it.

Mr. ADAMS. Then would it be fair to say it was a very small number of seconds?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It certainly would be. And I think the driver completed his answer--for 1 or 2 seconds all of us in the car were awaiting the fourth explosion, if I can term it that, which did not occur, and there was dead silence in the car.

Mr. ADAMS. Then do you remember anything that anyone said immediately following the dead silence?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not recall. I recall that just prior to this, which indicates to me that perhaps we had turned that corner before the shots, Judge Thornberry pointed to a building and said that that was where his offices had been located at one time, either in military service or in government service, and pointing over in the direction of the building. We were turning the corner--and that took place before the shots.

Mr. ADAMS. You don't happen to know the name of that building?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall. But he mentioned it in the term that he had been stationed in that building. Now, it could have been either a military activity or in government agency activity.

Mr. ADAMS. How did the knowledge come to you that the President had been shot?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We noted, as the cars continued to move after the third shot, and there was a great deal of movement on both sides in front of us, scurrying in various directions.

Mr. ADAMS. Scurrying by whom?

Mr. O'BRIEN. People on the street--the crowds had thinned out. There were people along the road.

Mr. ADAMS. We didn't specifically cover this, but was there a motorcycle escort?

Mr. O'BRIEN. For the motorcade?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; around the President's car.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Did that motorcycle escort extend as far back as your car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; it did not.

Mr. ADAMS. I interrupted you there. You were telling me how this knowledge came to you, that something serious had happened.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't think even up to that point, as the motorcade started to move out in front of us, as each car seemed to move out from great speed, we were at all aware of--certainly we had no idea of the specific nature of the occurrence. And we just were, I think you would have to describe, very confused. I remember particularly a Negro man with a youngster in his arms running up the slope of the lawn.

Mr. ADAMS. On which side of the car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right. And that was typical of all kinds of movement, as we tried to determine what had occurred, and we just didn't know.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any radio communication in your car with the front cars?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; we did not. At that point, a photographer--we started to move a little more rapidly. Our driver intended to follow the motorcade and move out. The motorcade moved out with great speed in front of us. And a photographer jumped on the trunk of our car--it was a convertible--holding onto the edge of the seat, and pounding his fist on the trunk, and obviously in a most excited state. We did not get anything coherent from him. I do not think we really attempted to, because at that point, as he hung onto our car, obviously to try and keep up with the motorcade himself, our car moved out with great speed.

The driver lost sight of the car in front of him in a matter of two or three minutes. He had no idea where the motorcade was headed. And they, therefore, proceeded to take us directly along the highway, passed the trade mart, which was to be the location of the President's stop and speech following the parade route.

We pulled up in front of the motorcade, slowed down, and someone called out, He has been shot, he is draped over the back seat. And at that point the driver concluded that perhaps his destination should be the nearest hospital. And he started to move out with great speed toward this hospital. And as we came closer to it, it became obvious that that was our destination, because then you saw the cars, the motorcycle police, and what-have-you. As we arrived at the hospital, there was a great deal of commotion at the front.

Mr. ADAMS. I think you misspoke yourself. You said you pulled up in front of the motorcade. I think perhaps you meant to say you pulled up in front of the trade mart.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Trade mart--I am sorry.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, just to make it perfectly clear, did you see the President or Governor Connally at the moment that they were shot?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. How long would you think it took you to go from the point where you heard the shots to the hospital?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say overall it could approach 15 minutes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what was your estimate of the rate of speed of your car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say 60 to 70 miles an hour.

Mr. ADAMS. When you arrived at the hospital, what did you do?

Mr. O'BRIEN. When I arrived at the hospital, two of the Congressmen that had been in the motorcade, obviously, therefore, in a car ahead of my car, because they had arrived, came over to the car as we pulled up, and asked me to follow them immediately. There was a large crowd--I will correct that--there were many people in front of the entrance to the hospital, and the entrance was being guarded by police.

Congressman Thomas and Congressman Brooks went up to the officers at the door and said, "This is a Special Assistant to the President. Let him in." So he immediately opened the doors, and I went through, with the two Congressmen, who asked a hospital attendant inside the corridor the direction in which to go. There was a little confusion in the corridor as to direction, and we headed at first in the wrong direction, and were again rerouted. And in a matter, however, of a couple of minutes from the entrance of the hospital, I arrived behind these swinging doors with glass panels, and my first--I saw to my right sitting--yes--sitting in a chair, and to my left, in this corridor sitting in a similar chair--to my right Mrs. Kennedy, to my left Mrs. Connally.

Mr. ADAMS. You didn't go in through the emergency entrance, then? You went through----

Mr. O'BRIEN. Apparently not. I am not sure of the entrance. But I just don't know. I assume that was not the emergency entrance.

Mr. ADAMS. And you said that Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were sitting there more or less together?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No. They were sitting--obviously chairs had been placed outside the door in each instant--one door to the left as you walked through these swinging doors with the glass panels--one door to the left that was closed, one door to the right that was closed. And outside of the door--this was a fairly wide corridor that ran down perhaps through three rooms on each side, these first two rooms right and left, the President had been placed in the emergency room to the right and Governor Connally in the emergency room to the left. Both doors were closed at that moment.

Mr. ADAMS. Was there anyone with Mrs. Kennedy at the time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Powers and Mr. O'Donnell were standing there.

Mr. ADAMS. Were you accompanied all the way up to this point by the two Congressmen you mentioned before?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The two Congressmen did not go through the doors with me. They left me at some point several feet from the doors, when it was determined that I was being taken to the right location.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, at that point, you knew that--from the Congressmen and from others, that the President had been shot?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. Then did you go up to Mrs. Kennedy or Mrs. Connally, or what did you do then?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I immediately engaged Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers in conversation.

Mr. ADAMS. Can you recall that conversation?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Neither Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell had a clear idea of the situation at the moment, but Mr. O'Donnell certainly gave me a positive indication that there was little or no chance.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy at that point?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not have any conversation other than attempting to comfort her, asking her if there was anything we could do--brief moments of that nature. But conversation was extremely limited.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know where the Vice President was at that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not see the Vice President in the hospital. I was given to understand by Mr. O'Donnell he was down the corridor--again, if I did an about-face, headed across in the other direction--that he was in a room across the hall.

Mr. ADAMS. How long did you stay there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Until the President was taken from the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. You stayed there with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. During that whole time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. During that period General McHugh at one point, Malcolm Kilduff from the press staff from time to time came in and out, Mrs. Lincoln, Dr. Burkley came in and out from time to time.

Mr. ADAMS. Was Dr. Burkley also in the emergency room?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. As we stood there, they moved equipment, heavy emergency equipment into the emergency room, and there was a great deal of what you would just envision--scurrying around of nurses and doctors, a great deal of activity.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you go into the emergency room yourself?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Taking it from the point that you arrived there in the corridor where Mrs. Kennedy was seated, how long a time passed before it came to your knowledge that the President was dead?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall the length of time I had with specific knowledge. My impression is I had perhaps at the outset in the first seconds or minutes, I had some doubt this had occurred.

I think perhaps what happened is that it penetrated, without a specific statement by anyone. I just had to conclude this had occurred, and it became obvious. At that point, however, Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and I were not at all sure that this had penetrated with Mrs. Kennedy for a few minutes.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember anything about a priest?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. I recall that Mr. O'Donnell told me that he had asked the staff, or it might have been a Secret Service man, or hospital staff person--in any event--someone to immediately secure a priest. There was no priest on the premises. And he had assumed perhaps a priest was en route, because by that time the knowledge that something serious had occurred certainly had become known through police radio and what-have-you.

But the priest arrived in a relatively short time. I don't know the specific time. But it didn't seem to be an awful long time. And, as a matter of fact, my recollection is that a second priest arrived, and then a third priest.

Mr. ADAMS. And you don't know who they were?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. During this interval, between the time that you arrived where Mrs. Kennedy was seated and the time it was officially determined that the President was dead, do you recall any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No conversation other than, "Is there anything we can do for you?" Or a conversation of that nature in very brief and occasional sentences--no conversation as such.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. Powers stay with you all that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; he did.

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Did there come a time when Mr. O'Donnell left?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell, at one point we discussed the situation--and Mr. O'Donnell at one point determined that he should cross the corridor and advise the Vice President of what the situation appeared to be at that moment. And as I recall, it was the conclusion that this was an extremely serious matter, we hadn't any formal advice or official advice on the situation, but the seriousness of it should be imparted to the Vice President.

He left briefly for that purpose, I assume, and returned to the position where we had been standing.

Mr. ADAMS. How did it come officially to your notice that the President was dead?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Again, I just don't know. It was a matter of standing for what seemed to be an interminable period of time--I have no idea the specific time--and, again, I cannot recall a specific instance when an announcement was made. It was more just finally having what gradually became obvious penetrate with you, it was, that it was an actuality.

Mr. ADAMS. How was the fact conveyed to Mrs. Kennedy? Do you remember that?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't remember a specific conversation by anyone with her. People came to her, hospital staff people, doctors from time to time that would lean down and whisper to her. I don't know whether at one of those occasions this was specifically stated. I think, again, perhaps it was just gradually we all came to a conclusion.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, at any rate, after the fact was--had, as you well put it, had penetrated, what happened next, as far as you know?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Our concern, in our discussions--Mr. O'Donnell and I discussed what should be done. Our major concern was that obviously you just could not leave Mrs. Kennedy sitting in this chair, drenched in blood. Something certainly had to take place.

In that context, we felt steps should be taken to remove the President from the hospital. And someone, either Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell, had suggested at one point during the several minutes, that Mrs. Kennedy might want to retire to a room a couple of doors down the corridor. Our attempt to bring this about was not successful, because she started to walk and then turned around and said, "I want to stay with him." And she went back to the chair.

Mr. O'Donnell, at a point in these proceedings, issued the directions to the Secret Service to secure a coffin. As I recall it, the coffin arrived in a very reasonable time. Whoever handled those arrangements certainly did it--carried out his responsibility well, because--again, time had a way of going on, and it is hard to determine a matter of minutes. But the coffin arrived, in any event, and was wheeled into the room.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell leave at this point--did he leave Mrs. Kennedy and go somewhere else, do you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. He, as I recall, again, went to the room in which the Vice President was waiting, to tell him specifically that the President had died, and to discuss with him the steps to move the Vice President out of the hospital and to the airport and on to Washington.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell come back and tell you about that discussion?

Mr. O'BRIEN. He came back and told me that he had advised the President, and he had had a discussion with the President. And I don't remember any of the details of it.

Mr. ADAMS. That covered two basic points--that President Kennedy's body was to be removed from the hospital forthwith, and the other was that the Vice President was to return to Washington?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. What were the reasons that led to the decision, if you know, that the Vice President would return to Washington?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe it was in the context of the death of the President, what steps, if any, were necessary for the Vice President to assume the responsibility of the office forthwith, and our great concern about the situation in which Mrs. Kennedy was being left in this corridor, without any plan for taking care of her. So I think the basic idea was to leave the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. Was there any discussion as to whether there might or might not be some general conspiracy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not with me.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. I must add, however, that during the course of this, that none of us had any knowledge of actually what had occurred. And I am sure that some of us gave thought to what might still occur. We just had no idea. And we felt that certainly the first step was the protection of the new President and the taking care of Mrs. Kennedy as best we could. We tried to give some clarity of thoughts to the steps that were necessary.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, you discussed these problems with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers, I suppose.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And anyone else?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so.

Mr. ADAMS. I will take you back to the point where the coffin arrived. What happened then?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The coffin was wheeled into the emergency room. At that point, a man arrived on the scene who, I assume, was the coroner, or someone representing the coroner's office. I do not know his name. And he stated that the President could not be taken from the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. Was this in Mrs. Kennedy's presence?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall this conversation took place just outside those swinging doors with the glass panels. And I would--I believe, therefore, that she did not hear this conversation.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, at the time the coffin was wheeled into the emergency room, what did Mrs. Kennedy do? Did she enter at that time, or at any time, so far as you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is that she did enter the room, but I don't recall it was at that time, and I am not sure what specific time.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, going back to this official who said the body could not be removed--you were present at that time with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what happened with respect to that discussion?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Dr. Burkley, the President's physician, entered into that discussion. And as I recall he and this official went into a little room just outside these doors and carried on further discussion that seemed to involve members of the hospital staff and others. And the discussion went on for a period of several minutes. Burkley--Dr. Burkley was quite exercised. It was apparent that this fellow was not going to--he was going to be adamant in his position. And very soon another official arrived on the scene that was described to me as a judge.

Mr. ADAMS. Does the name Brown refresh your recollection?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't know as I heard his name. But he was then described as the judge--a judge, and the indication was that he, therefore, was in a higher position of authority than the other official that had been carrying on this discussion with Dr. Burkley.

He was equally adamant. The reference was made, either specifically by him or by someone in the official group, that this had to be treated as just another homicide, and that no other--no special considerations could be given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern about Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the President should be taken from the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and Dr. Burkley?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The casket was brought out from the emergency room, wheeled out through these two folding doors. And the members of the Secret Service gathered around it. They had made a determination on their own as to the exit. An ambulance was waiting. Preparations had been made by the Secret Service to accomplish this. And we all--Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers and I, General McHugh, and two or three members of the Secret Service proceeded to push the coffin down this corridor.

My recollection is that objections were still being raised by some or all officials. My recollection is also that we paid little heed to it.

Mr. ADAMS. These were vigorous objections, I gather.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say they were. And the only very minor problem that occurred in reaching the exit was that the priest who was third in point of arrival was still present. The other two priests had departed after expressing their condolences to Mrs. Kennedy. But this priest was standing in the corridor and was rather insistent that he formalize some prayers at that point. And I suggested to him that he step aside. Our concern still was whether or not there was going to be an effective block put in our way.

Mr. ADAMS. And who accompanied Mrs. Kennedy at that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe in the grouping behind the casket that at one time Mr. O'Donnell, another time me, and another time perhaps Mr. Powers--but among us we escorted her along.

Mr. ADAMS. Then when you finally got the casket out through this corridor, and got it into the ambulance, how did you go to the airport?

Mr. O'BRIEN. In a car that was parked alongside the ambulance. The driver in the car--Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance. And Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, and I went into the back seat of this car.

Mr. ADAMS. Was this a police car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was an official car of some sort.

Mr. ADAMS. At that time do you know whether or not the Vice President had left the hospital?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know.

Mr. ADAMS. Had he arrived at Love Field by the time you got out there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what happened when you arrived at Love Field?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, again the Secret Service and those of us in the official party that had arrived at the field--I guess specifically again the three of us--helped to move the coffin up the steps of the plane. It was a difficult job, because the steps, of course, were the normal set of stairs for a plane, and, therefore, it was too narrow to accomplish this without some difficulty. But it was brought onto the plane.

At that point I noticed that seats to the left of the door had been removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. We placed the coffin on the floor. Then I looked up, and the President and Mrs. Johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment from that area of the plane.

Mrs. Kennedy came aboard and was seated in the remaining two seats at a table to the left in the rear compartment, and Mrs. Johnson and the President went over to her.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know how it came to pass that the President was sworn in at that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and Mrs. Johnson, after a brief discussion with Mrs. Kennedy, went into the Presidential compartment--I guess that is the best way to describe that section of the plane--this would be where the President's chair and desk are located. He asked Mr. O'Donnell to join him.

During the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we were going to immediately depart. There was some confusion for a couple of minutes about departure. I was not privy to that. And the President asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in--that he had secured the advice of the Attorney General, which, as I understood it, was a preference in his view to have a swearing in ceremony immediately. And that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes.

So while we awaited the arrival of the judge, the President, Mr. O'Donnell and I, joined by Mrs. Johnson, after a couple of minutes, sat at this table with the four seats, and just discussed the fact that the departure would take place immediately following the swearing in ceremony. And during that period we briefly discussed the first step of the President to insure continuity, and either just before the swearing-in or immediately following it, the President discussed with Mr. O'Donnell and me his desire that we stay, as he put it, shoulder to shoulder with him.

The judge arrived----

Mr. ADAMS. During that interval, who was staying with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Kennedy had at that point gone into the restroom adjacent to the bedroom in the compartment.

The judge arrived in minutes. And it was suggested that those in the--I guess the best way to describe it--the front of the plane, those who could move into the compartment, including those representing the press, a single photographer was brought aboard. The wording of the oath was available. The judge took her position. The President said that he certainly wanted Mrs. Kennedy with him at this moment. I went to the bedroom. The door to the adjoining restroom was closed. I went out and asked Mrs. Lincoln if she would see if Mrs. Kennedy was available. She went in and came out with Mrs. Kennedy, and she took her place to the President's left, Mrs. Johnson to the President's right, the others grouped around. I stood behind the judge, and just as the judge was to start the ceremony, a member of the crew handed me a small Bible in a white box. I took the Bible from the box, interrupted the judge just momentarily, and handed her the Bible. She completed the ceremony.

Then everyone immediately settled down. The judge departed from the plane, the photographer from the plane. Everyone settled down, and we took off without further delay.

Mr. ADAMS. As a matter of detail, do you happen to know what happened to the Bible?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know.

Mr. ADAMS. The plane then departed immediately?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. And----

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell and I went to the rear compartment where we joined Mr. Powers and General McHugh. Mrs. Kennedy was seated in one of the two chairs. Mr. O'Donnell took the other chair. The three of us stood. The plane took off. And we remained with Mrs. Kennedy for the duration of the trip to Washington.

We consulted, or were consulted by General Clifton and Mr. Moyers on two or three occasions during the trip, on arrangements for the President's activity upon arrival here in Washington. One suggestion was made that we--that they call in for a meeting of the White House staff. But that was discarded as impractical at this point. Arrangements were made, however, which Mr. Moyers checked with me, on the calling of the bipartisan leaders to a meeting with the President, and arrangements were put in effect for the President to meet the Under Secretary of State in the absence of the Secretary and other officials here.

Mr. ADAMS. How did it come about that the remains of President Kennedy were taken to the naval hospital?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was my understanding that the President would be taken to a hospital. I don't recall any discussion of the reason specifically other than my assumption that the autopsy would take place at one of the military hospitals in Washington. And obviously there were two to select from, and the President being an ex-Navy man, it seemed just sort of normal to suggest Bethesda.

Mr. ADAMS. And you remained with Mrs. Kennedy during the entire trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did.

Mr. ADAMS. What was her condition?

Mr. O'BRIEN. She conversed a great deal with us. The one impression left with me from the entire trip and conversations with Mrs. Kennedy during the trip, participated in by all of us, was her great concern for us, really--her feeling that we had, as she put it, been with him at the beginning and we were with him at the end. We were all bereft. And I am afraid that the four of us who felt that we should be of some comfort to her were inadequate to the job in the sense that it was difficult for us to come up with anything that made much sense by way of being helpful.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any other general subjects of discussion as you made the trip up?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. What happened when you arrived?

Mr. O'BRIEN. A lift was placed at the rear door of the plane. The honor guard came up the front steps, through the plane, to the back compartment. We concluded that we would take the body off the plane.

Mr. ADAMS. You say "we." You mean Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and yourself?

Mr. O'BRIEN. General McHugh. And so we proceeded to do just that. We took the--lifted the coffin, with the help of the crew people, and placed it on the lift, and it was taken from there.

We--the three of us--four of us--McHugh was with us--got into a car. The Attorney General and Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance, if that is what it was. And we followed in a car directly behind that, went out to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. What did you do when you arrived there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We went immediately to an upper floor of the hospital, where we joined members of the President's family. General McHugh went elsewhere. And we then spent several hours in these rooms on, I don't know what floor of the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. When you referred to the President's family, what particular members were there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Mrs. Stephen Smith was there.

Mr. ADAMS. Mrs. Attorney General Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. I don't recall all the members of the family. The Attorney General--and there were--there was an occasional person that came and went during the night But that was basically the group.

We had coffee and received reports from time to time from General McHugh as to the length of time it would take for the trip from Bethesda to the White House. And the hours went on and on, until the early hours of the morning--perhaps 4 a.m.

Mr. ADAMS. And then what did you do?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We came to the White House, at which point several members of the White House staff, Mr. Shriver, were awaiting the arrival of the President. He was placed in the East Room. A brief prayer was given, and that terminated the evening.

Mr. ADAMS. I would like to ask you to go back again and give me your recollections of the President's views about the nature of the protection that should be afforded him, or what his attitude was towards security.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation I had with the President in this area. All I can say is that the President at all times was most interested in close contact with his fellow Americans, and in that sense he was quick to move to a fence that separated him from the people, he was quick to move towards people. He certainly moved quite freely. But I do not recall ever having a conversation or being present during the course of a conversation when the specific protective measures were discussed or what his views were relative to them.

Mr. ADAMS. Other than what you have said here, do you have any knowledge at all about the person who did the shooting, whoever it might be?

Mr. O'BRIEN. None whatsoever.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you have any other thing I have not covered that you would like to put in this record?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so. I believe that to the best of my recollection I have tried to carefully review all aspects of the matter, from departure from the lawn of the White House to arrival back at the White House. And I cannot call anything to mind now that I might have overlooked.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, finally, it is a custom in this Commission to make transcripts available to the witnesses if they want to read them before signing them, or if you would like you can waive that. That is entirely up to you.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would like to have the transcript.

Mr. ADAMS. Then we will send it along in the next few days, and when you have an opportunity to consider it, if you will just send it back to the Commission we would appreciate it.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I certainly will.

Mr. ADAMS. That closes this deposition.

AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID F. POWERS

The following affidavit was executed by David F. Powers on May 18, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, David F. Powers, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 21 and 22, 1963.

I traveled to Texas with the Presidential party on November 21, 1963, on AF-1. After a stop in Houston, we spent the night in Fort Worth, Texas. On the evening of November 21st, we were discussing the size of the crowd in the Rice University Stadium at Houston, and the President asked me how I thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was there. I said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came to see him before but there were 100,000 extra people on hand who came to see Mrs. Kennedy. President Kennedy then made a comment to Mrs. Kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that seemed to make her happy, although at that particular moment she was very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and on motorcades.

The next day we proceeded on to Dallas and arrived at Love Field at approximately 11:30 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy were in high spirits and as they were leaving the plane I jokingly remarked to the two of them that they looked like Mr. and Mrs. America and that they should not both wave in the same direction as it would be too much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. They were the first to leave the Presidential plane (AF-1) and were greeted by Vice President and Mrs. Johnson (whose plane had already arrived at Dallas), along with other members of the Dallas reception committee. President and Mrs. Kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was standing behind an iron fence. I was assigned to ride in the Secret Service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the President's car in the motorcade. That Secret Service follow-up automobile was an open car with two Special Agents in the front seat, two Special Agents in the rear seat and two Special agents on each of the two running boards. I sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and Kenneth O'Donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car.

The crowd in Dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. In my opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas in 1960. Kenneth O'Donnell and I were observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate the local political situation. President Kennedy was sitting on the extreme right-hand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and Mrs. Kennedy was seated on the extreme left of the back seat. They were seated at the opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to the crowds on each side.

As we proceeded through Dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of occasions, but I do not believe it ever stopped. When we passed through the heart of Dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. We then turned off of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm Street.

At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., which was the time we were due at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. The total time between the first and third shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but I also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple overpass. This may have resulted from my feeling, when I looked forward toward the overpass, that we might have ridden into an ambush.

At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. Mrs. Kennedy climbed onto the back of the car. Perhaps she may have been looking for help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. I think Special Agent Clinton Hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade.

We proceeded at a high rate of speed to Parkland Hospital. Upon arriving at the emergency entrance, I raced over to where President Kennedy lay and Special Agent Hill and I, along with Special Agent Kellerman, placed him on a stretcher. The three of us and Special Agent Greer pushed him into the emergency area. I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy the entire time at the hospital. She went in and out of the emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a chair right outside the emergency room door. I believe Ken O'Donnell went to call the Attorney General as soon as we arrived at the hospital.

I accompanied the President's body and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip from the hospital to the airport. Some seats were removed from a rear compartment of the President's plane and the casket was placed there. On the trip back to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy refused to change her clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. Upon arriving at Andrews Air Force Base, Mrs. Kennedy declined to take a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital but instead chose to ride with President Kennedy's body in the hearse. Kenneth O'Donnell and I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy and the other members of the President's family at Bethesda until the early hours of the morning on November 23, 1963.

Signed the 18th day of May 1964 at Washington, D.C.

(S) David F. Powers, DAVID F. POWERS.

AFFIDAVIT OF CLIFTON C. CARTER

The following affidavit was executed by Clifton C. Carter on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ss:

I, Clifton C. Carter, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 22, 1963.

Vice President Johnson and I had been in Texas during the week preceding November 22nd, and we had met the party of President Kennedy in San Antonio, Texas, on Thursday, November 21, 1963.

I was on the Vice President's plane (AF-2) when it landed at Dallas Love Field on November 22 at about 11:30 a.m. Vice President and Mrs. Johnson left their plane and joined the reception party which greeted President and Mrs. Kennedy, who arrived in the President's plane (AF-1). President and Mrs. Kennedy then shook hands with people in the crowd along an iron fence. While the Presidential party greeted the crowd, I went to the automobile where I was to ride in the motorcade. It was a Secret Service vehicle assigned to follow and protect the Vice President. Our car was right behind the Vice President's automobile, which was immediately to the rear of the Presidential Secret Service follow-up car, which drove right behind the President's automobile.

The automobile in which I rode was driven by a Dallas policeman. I sat in the middle of the front seat and held some radio equipment on my lap. Special Agent Jerry D. Kivett sat on my right and Special Agent Len Johns and someone else were in the rear seat. This was an unmarked Dallas police car.

Nothing unusual occurred on the motorcade route from Love Field to the downtown Dallas area. The crowds were very large and very friendly, except for two or three signs which contained derogatory comments about President Kennedy. I would estimate that the crowds were twice as big as they were in September of 1960 when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas. The motorcade slowed down at times, but I do not believe that it stopped.

The motorcade proceeded west on Main Street, made a right-hand turn onto Houston and then swung around to the left on Elm, proceeding slowly at about 5 to 10 miles per hour. At approximately 12:30 p.m., our car had just made the left-hand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent Youngblood, who was seated on the right-hand side of the front seat of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed Vice President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots.

I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of approximately 5 to 6 seconds from the first to the last shot, and the three shots were evenly spaced. The motorcade promptly accelerated and traveled at high speeds up to 75 to 80 miles an hour to Parkland Memorial Hospital. The President's automobile, the President's follow-up car, the Vice President's automobile, and the Vice President's follow-up car pulled into the emergency entrance at Parkland. Attendants from the hospital with two stretchers carried President Kennedy and Governor Connally into the hospital. At one point I briefly helped remove Governor Connally from the car onto the stretcher. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally had been taken into the hospital, Vice President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Special Agent Youngblood and I entered the emergency area and were taken to a small room where we waited. I went out on a couple of occasions to secure coffee. Congressmen Henry Gonzalez, Jack Brooks, Homer Thornberry and Albert Thomas came into the room where Vice President Johnson waited. About 1 o'clock Mrs. Johnson left the room, stating that she wanted to visit with Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally.

At 1:12 p.m. Special Agent Emory Roberts brought the news that President Kennedy was dead. At that moment the only people present were Vice President Johnson, Congressman Thornberry, Special Agent Len Johns, and I. Special Agent Roberts advised Vice President Johnson to return to the White House forthwith because of the concern of the Secret Service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate Vice President Johnson as well as President Kennedy.

Vice President Johnson then asked that Kenny (O'Donnell) and Larry (O'Brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning promptly to Washington. Kenny and Larry came down and told Vice President Johnson that they agreed he should return to Washington immediately. Vice President Johnson then asked me to try to alert some of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to Washington. I then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, and I was later driven to Love Field by a young Dallas policeman. By the time I returned to the Presidential plane (AF-1), Vice President and Mrs. Johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had already been made to have Vice President Johnson sworn-in as the President. I do not have any personal knowledge of Vice President Johnson's conversation with Attorney General Kennedy concerning the advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have Judge Sara Hughes participate in that ceremony. I was present at the swearing-in and shortly thereafter the President's plane took off for the Washington area.

The original conversations concerning President Kennedy's trip to Texas occurred on June 5, 1963 at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. President Kennedy had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy and Vice President Johnson had spoken at Annapolis. The President and Vice President met with Governor Connally at the Cortez Hotel to discuss a number of matters, including a trip by the President to Texas. Fred Korth and I were present when the three men assembled, but Fred Korth and I left during their discussion of the President's proposed trip. The first tentative date was to have the trip coincide with Vice-President Johnson's birthday on August 27th, but that was rejected because it was too close to Labor Day. President Kennedy's other commitments prevented him from coming to Texas any sooner than November 21st, which was the date finally set.

Signed this 20th day of May 1964.

(S) Clifton C. Carter, CLIFTON C. CARTER.

TESTIMONY OF EARLE CABELL

The testimony of Earle Cabell was taken at 9 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Hon. Earle Cabell, mayor of the city of Dallas.

Mr. CABELL. Former mayor.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that right?

Mr. CABELL. I resigned in February.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which I understand was received by you on either July 8 or 9, written by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission; is that correct?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CABELL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name for the record?

Mr. CABELL. My name is Earle Cabell.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence?

Mr. CABELL. My place of residence is 5338 Drane Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, I understand that you were formerly the mayor of Dallas, but you resigned about 2 or 3 months ago?

Mr. CABELL. I was installed as mayor of Dallas May 1, 1961, for a 2-year term. Was reinstalled May 1, 1963, upon reelection. Resigned that office on February 3, 1964, to become a candidate for the House of Representatives of the United States.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have? I simply want to get some background for the record.

Mr. CABELL. For the past 30-odd years I have been engaged in dairy products and food retailing in the city of Dallas and surrounding areas.

Mr. HUBERT. You still have that business?

Mr. CABELL. No; I am not connected with that business officially any longer. I retain my office at the former headquarters of that company, which is 4017 Commerce Street. I am on a retainer with the company in an advisory capacity.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, we are interested in a number of matters, but I think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment upon an interview of you by FBI Agents Warren Debrueys and George Carlson on December 12, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked "Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Honorable Earle Cabell." I have signed my name under that and on each of these succeeding three pages I have marked my initials in the right-hand lower corner.

Exhibit No. 1 consists therefore of 4 pages. Mr. Cabell, I think you have had an opportunity to read this Exhibit No. 1; is that right?

Mr. CABELL. I have read it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if the exhibit, which is, as I have said, a report of an interview of you by the FBI agents named, is an accurate and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you?

Mr. CABELL. It is entirely so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any corrections or additions?

Mr. CABELL. I find no corrections or additions to make to that statement.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I would like you to state briefly just what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of Dallas, starting with you, I take it, as the top, on down at least to the police department.

Mr. CABELL. Under the charter of the city of Dallas, the city council is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the people at large as the mayor. He is the presiding officer and the spokesman for the council. The council does not have administrative responsibilities nor authority. The council is a legislative and policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other city officials or department heads.

The city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the appointment of the chief of police. The council, by ordinance, is not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct administrative action through or over any of the department heads appointed by and responsible to the city manager.

Mr. HUBERT. How many members compose the council, sir?

Mr. CABELL. Eight members, in addition to the Mayor.

Mr. HUBERT. They are elected?

Mr. CABELL. They are all elected by the citizens of Dallas at large. That is, they are all voted upon.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager, as I understand it, is appointed by the council or by the mayor?

Mr. CABELL. No; the city manager is appointed by the council, by council action.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager on November 22 through 24, 1963, was Mr. Crull?

Mr. CABELL. Elgin E. Crull.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, for the record, you were then Mayor?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it might be well also for the record if we have the names of the people that composed the council at that time.

Mr. CABELL. The council at that time was composed of Mr. Carie Welch. He was also mayor pro tem. Mr. William Roberts, Mrs. Tracy Rutherford, Mr. Joe Moody, Mr. Joe Golman, Mrs. Elizabeth Blessing, Mr. George Underwood, Jr., Mr. R. B. Carpenter.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Mr. Crull had been serving as city manager for quite some time?

Mr. CABELL. Something over 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe briefly for us the relationship between the mayor and the council and the city manager?

Mr. CABELL. Well, it is the relationship of the general manager of a corporate entity and his board of directors, with most day-to-day contact being made through the mayor as the presiding officer of that board.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the city manager really has the detailed administration of city affairs?

Mr. CABELL. He is entirely responsible for the administrative functions of the city government.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the mayor, then, is responsible for policies with the council; is that correct?

Mr. CABELL. As the presiding officer, the mayor has only one vote on the action of the council, as any other councilman, but by virtue of being the presiding officer and the spokesman of the council, then on day-to-day routine matters, the contact of the city manager is through the mayor.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the council make any other appointments than the appointment of the city manager?

Mr. CABELL. Yes; the direct appointees of the council are the city attorney, the city secretary, the supervisor of public utilities, and the city auditor, with the city auditor being nominated by the Dallas Clearing House Association.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand then that the chief of police is appointed by the city manager completely?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct; and is responsible only to the city manager.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the city council or mayor confirm the appointees of the city manager? What authority do they have?

Mr. CABELL. They confirm by virtue of approval of the budget wherein their salaries are stipulated and they are named.

Mr. HUBERT. But it is not an appointment such as with Federal officials where the President appoints and the city confirms?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I want to ask you to state what you observed concerning the actual shooting of the President, and perhaps the best way to start is to tell us what position you were in in the Presidential parade.

Mr. CABELL. We were separated from the President's car by the car in which the Vice President and Senator Yarborough were riding, and by a station wagon holding, I think, certain members of the press and possibly some Secret Service, and I believe one other car of Secret Service so there were either two or three intervening cars between our place in the motorcade and the Presidential car.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was in your car other than the driver?

Mr. CABELL. Mrs. Cabell and Congressman Ray Roberts from McKinney, Tex., Congressman from the Fourth District, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Just the three of you?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who the driver was?

Mr. CABELL. I do not remember his name. He was a member of the Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you observe anything at all relative to the shooting of the President?

Mr. CABELL. Well, we were just rounding the corner of Market and Elm, making the left turn, when the first shot rang out.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir?

Mr. CABELL. I heard the shot. Mrs. Cabell said, "Oh a gun" or "a shot", and I was about to deny and say "Oh it must have been a firecracker" when the second and the third shots rang out. There was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession. There was no mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a high-powered rifle.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person who knows something about it?

Mr. CABELL. I have done a great deal of hunting and also used military shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the armed services during the war?

Mr. CABELL. No; I was not, but there was no question in my mind as to their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of the building known as the School Book Depository.

Mr. HUBERT. That you judged, I suppose, by the direction from which you thought the sound came?

Mr. CABELL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio?

Mr. CABELL. Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10 seconds, elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than 5 seconds having elapsed until the third one.

Mr. HUBERT. Two to one ratio?

Mr. CABELL. Approximately that. And again I say that, as you mentioned, as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the exact seconds because they were not counted.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you became conscious that these were shots and that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you look toward that building?

Mr. CABELL. My back was turned to it at the time, because I was riding in the front seat and was conversing with Mrs. Cabell and Mr. Roberts.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were in the back? And you were next to the driver?

Mr. CABELL. I was sitting in the front seat with the driver. This was a convertible in which we were riding with the top down.

Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the shots seemed to you to come from behind?

Mr. CABELL. From behind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn in the direction of the shots?

Mr. CABELL. I turned then, rather looking down toward the Presidential car, and then I saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves on the ground. One man threw himself over a child that was sitting in the grass there. I did not observe anything in connection with the building itself.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in any of the windows?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you mentioned that Mrs. Cabell made a remark to you, "Oh, that is a shot." I take it from what you have said, that remark was made immediately after the first shot?

Mr. CABELL. Just immediately; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And before the second and third, is that right?

Mr. CABELL. And really before I could get my answer out--I think it was motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to say possibly it wasn't--then the second and third shots rang out.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other spontaneous remarks made by anyone else in the car?

Mr. CABELL. Well, in the discussion which followed, both Mr. Roberts and myself said that it must have been from a gun similar to a .30-06.

Mr. HUBERT. By spontaneous, I meant those remarks made just immediately, not the discussion thereafter, you see.

Mr. CABELL. I don't remember.

Mr. HUBERT. So you do not recall any remarks made by anyone else of a spontaneous nature?

Mr. CABELL. No; I don't.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do after the shots were fired and the Presidential car and the vice presidential car went on?

Mr. CABELL. Then we just followed and told the driver to follow them.

Mr. HUBERT. You went on then to the----

Mr. CABELL. We went on to the hospital. We could not tell whether they were just going back to the airport or going toward the hospital. Now there was a question raised among us as to where we were headed.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn't in fact know who had been hit, I take it?

Mr. CABELL. No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car. From out of nowhere appeared one Secret Service man with a submachine gun. His attention seemed to be focused up toward the building. One of the motorcycle officers and the escort pulled his motorcycle over to the side and jumped off with his drawn handgun and ran up the slope toward the building, toward the School Book Depository. I do not recall any other shots being fired than the three which I mentioned.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that you got to the hospital very shortly after the Presidential car did?

Mr. CABELL. Of course, when we turned off of Stemmons Expressway, we knew then that we were headed toward Parkland. Otherwise, we would have proceeded on Stemmons to Mockingbird Lane, which would have been the direct route to the airport.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the hospital, had the President been removed from the car?

Mr. CABELL. He was in the process of being removed; was on the carriage. Another carriage was brought out, and I was there and helped to steady the carriage when the Governor was taken out of the car and placed on the carriage and wheeled in. And I helped escort the carriage on into the hospital into the anteroom and stayed there until the body was removed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to go to the room in which a press conference was held, at which the official announcement was made of the President's death?

Mr. CABELL. I was not in when any official thing--I assumed that the President was dead.

Mr. HUBERT. I was trying to get the anteroom or hallway that you described. Where was this with reference to the outside door of the hospital, or the emergency room, or something of that sort?

Mr. CABELL. Well, this was in the emergency section. There is a large anteroom with a glassed-in enclosure where telephones were, and then off from that larger room was a narrow anteroom from which a series of operating rooms connected.

The President was in one of those, and directly across this little hallway then was where Governor Connally was.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any news people in that area?

Mr. CABELL. Yes; I am sure there must have been. I don't recall any whom I recognized personally.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, do you know a reporter, newspaperman now with Scripps-Howard, by the name of Seth Kantor?

Mr. CABELL. I can't recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there is some information, Mr. Cabell, that Jack Ruby was around the hospital some place, either near the entrance or near the pressroom, or something of that sort. And, of course, I take it that you now know what he looks like, from pictures in the press?

Mr. CABELL. Well, I knew him by sight.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew him by sight prior to this?

Mr. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?

Mr. CABELL. I would say for several years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him around the hospital then at any time?

Mr. CABELL. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed until the President's body was removed?

Mr. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after that, sir?

Mr. CABELL. We went--Mrs. Cabell accompanied me and went back to Love Field. There was a number of members of the Texas delegation to the Congress who had accompanied the President and Vice President on the trip down here, and I more or less took them in tow and secured a station wagon from the vehicles that were outside the hospital and carried them, at the direction of one of the Secret Service agents who was more or less in charge in there, to the Southwest Airmotive side of Love Field, which is the eastern side, because he advised me that Air Force I would take off from that side. So there was some with us in our car, and then the station wagon with the additional ones. When we got to Southwest Airmotive, Air Force I was still parked on the west side of the field where they had deplaned the passengers earlier. Realizing that it was going to take off rather quickly, I asked the public relations man for Southwest Airmotive to get on the radio and contact the Air Force officer in charge through the control tower as to what to do about these men, whether to bring them over to that side, or was the plane going to come over there.

We did not get a direct answer, but the squad car of the Dallas Police Department, which is assigned to Love Field, came over and got us, apparently through clearance of the control tower, and carried us right straight across the field. Apparently they stopped any movement to get us across the field. Then those men were able to board the plane.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, after you left the field, after Air Force I had left, what was your activity then, sir?

Mr. CABELL. We stayed there on the ground until after Air Force 1 had taken off with the body of the President. We conferred for a few minutes with Sheriff Bill Decker and Chief of Police Curry. Chief Curry was in the plane and a witness to the swearing in of President Johnson. Shortly after it took off, then Mrs. Cabell, and I returned home. We dropped Mrs. Cabell off, and then the driver carried me to Mr. Jonsson's house where I left my car, and then I returned home.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first know of the apprehension of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. On the field there, Chief Curry told us of the killing of Officer Tippit, and I believe told us at the same time that they had apprehended the suspect.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the suspect of the killing of the President, or of Tippit?

Mr. CABELL. That he was one and the same.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what information he had to indicate that the killer of Tippit was also the assassin of the President?

Mr. CABELL. Only that it was believed that he was one and the same. Now the details, I did not get at that time either concerning the killing of Officer Tippit or the subsequent apprehension of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your next contact with Curry, if you recall?

Mr. CABELL. I don't recall any further contact with Curry. This was not a face to face or personal contact. It was telephonic concerning the issuance of this parade permit, which is covered in the report by the bureau man.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a conference by telephone on Sunday the 24th?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no contact, to your knowledge, with him?

Mr. CABELL. I don't recall any further contact with Chief Curry.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a contact with any other member of the police department?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any knowledge of the situation in the county jail with reference to the news media?

Mr. CABELL. That was the city jail.

Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon, city jail, with reference to the covering of the matter by the news media, and the confusion that came about as a result of that?

Mr. CABELL. I knew fairly well what was going on by watching my own TV from time to time and the covering that they had on the activities around the police department of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any meeting of the council during the interval between the 22d and the 24th?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any contact with City Manager Crull during that time?

Mr. CABELL. The Sunday morning, I knew that the city manager was out of town, and in my conversation with Chief Curry subsequent to the shooting of Oswald, I asked him if he had made contact with Mr. Crull, and suggested that if he had not, that he do make immediate contact and ask for his return to the city.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. This was after the shooting of Oswald. And he told me at that time that Mr. Crull had been contacted and was on his way back.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know prior to the shooting of Oswald, or have you learned since whether there was any awareness in the police department of possible danger to Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. No, no. After it had all occurred, then I recall having been told by someone that there had been an attempt, or that an attempt would be made, but that is not clear, and purely a matter of hearsay.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe in your conversation with Chief Curry on Sunday, you discussed a threat that had been made to you, or indirectly?

Mr. CABELL. He called me that this call had come through the switchboard of the city hall, and it was his understanding that it was long distance, but he did not know the source, and since it was a direct dial and they could not trace it, there was not enough time, wherein the caller said that an attempt would be made on my life.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you that was a long-distance call?

Mr. CABELL. It was his impression, the switchboard operator's impression that it was some long distance.

Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to Oswald's death?

Mr. CABELL. No; that was following Oswald's death, and that is when he told me that he was sending officers out to maintain security.

Mr. HUBERT. Attached to page 3 it seems to indicate that the call with Curry must have occurred a bit before you received the news of Oswald's shooting?

Mr. CABELL. The first call from Curry, or only the starting of any conversations with Chief Curry were relative to this torchlight parade on that night. I had called him and told him that I would recommend the cancellation of that parade. He had granted it, but then I had recommended the cancellation, and I would assume full responsibility for having given that instruction.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time Oswald had not been shot?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But on that first call then, was there any discussion between you and Chief Curry about the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any discussion about the security precautions that were being observed or the problems that they were?

Mr. CABELL. I do not recall any discussion on that at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Curry did not tell you that any threats had been made to Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period November 22 until the shooting of Oswald, did you have any conversations with the press concerning the whole matter?

Mr. CABELL. There were a number of calls. There were members of the press, both the national and international press that came to my home during that period. I had given a statement on Friday night to both television stations.

Mr. HUBERT. That was by----

Mr. CABELL. That was on Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. On television?

Mr. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether any part of those statements or interviews had to do with the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. None whatsoever. There was never any during that period. There was never any mention of that. It was not brought up nor discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. Then later on Sunday morning, I understand after the security call from Chief Curry, there was another call from him with regard to the death of Oswald?

Mr. CABELL. He called me.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. CABELL. Yes; the incident referred to here about a friend calling.

Mr. HUBERT. You say "here." You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. CABELL. "He received a telephone call from a friend." That friend was Mrs. R. O. Alexander who said, "Do you have your television on?" And I said, No. She said, "Get it on quick. They have just shot Oswald." And I immediately turned my television on. I was in the den where I was sitting and taking these telephone calls, and then just as I get it turned on, they still had not removed Oswald at that time because this was just a matter of a minute or 2 from the actual shooting. Then Chief Curry called and said, "They have just shot Oswald." And I said, "Yes; I have it on TV now."

Mr. HUBERT. Was any action taken then by anybody, do you know, concerning, first, security measures or further protection against?

Mr. CABELL. Nothing to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. I think I have asked this before. If I have, then just disregard it, but did you contact City Manager Crull during the interval?

Mr. CABELL. No; I did not contact him. Now he came to my home immediately on his return to the city.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was about what time?

Mr. CABELL. This was, well, it was early afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Of the 24th?

Mr. CABELL. This was on the 24th, on Sunday; yes. It was about 1 o'clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you comment upon this Lancaster Smith Proposal of a parade?

Mr. CABELL. Lane Smith is a very well-known, very active lay worker in the Catholic church, and he had called me earlier, and I think the suggestion for this came from some nuns, and when he first talked to me I didn't realize frankly the implications or the hazard of a procession such as that, and I told him--he asked about a permit, and I said that that is a matter that is handled by the chief of police, that he would have to be the one to issue a permit for any type of parade, because that is what that amounted to.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the proposal of Mr. Smith?

Mr. CABELL. Well, a torchlight procession of both the clergy and any lay people as a procession of mourning that would pass by the site of the assassination and put flowers at the site.

Mr. HUBERT. That was proposed for Sunday night?

Mr. CABELL. That was proposed for Sunday night, and after having talked with him, then the implications began to dawn on me, and when I realized that that was in a rather poorly lighted area, it is not in the best part of town, and that the procession itself would pass possibly under the very window of the jail where Oswald presumably would be by that time, then that was the reason behind my calling the chief then.

He told me he had issued the permit because he had no reason not to, and then that is when I made the recommendation that it be canceled.

Mr. HUBERT. It was canceled in fact?

Mr. CABELL. Yes; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Before Oswald was shot?

Mr. CABELL. Oh, I think undoubtedly, because he said he would call Lanc immediately back.

Mr. HUBERT. When did Lancaster Smith call you?

Mr. CABELL. I think it must have been around 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning, originally.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you called Chief Curry about what time?

Mr. CABELL. Must have been very shortly after that. I would say 9 o'clock or possibly a short time after. I believe that it must have been just a little before 10, because I think that he was talking to me in his office at the time word was brought to him that Oswald was shot, or possibly had hung up the phone, or he would have mentioned that to me at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Because the evidence we now have shows that Oswald was shot about 11:20, so perhaps your time would have been 11 rather than 10?

Mr. CABELL. Yes; I was thinking in terms of 10 o'clock being the hour of shooting, but we can move this conversation with Curry to a matter of minutes preceding the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were any threatening calls received by you directly?

Mr. CABELL. Only one, which was received by Mrs. Cabell on New Year's Eve.

Mr. HUBERT. December 31, 1963?

Mr. CABELL. December 31, 1963; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any received indirectly?

Mr. CABELL. Only those that were reported to us by Chief Curry. There was one incident which was not a call, but which was an unusual thing and which caused a certain amount of apprehension.

On a Saturday evening, which one I can't tell you, but it was while security was being maintained, that I decided to go out and eat dinner. Mrs. Cabell did not want to go. She said she would just stay at home. One of the officers stayed with Mrs. Cabell. The other one accompanied me to Tupinamba, a Mexican cafe on Lovers Lane. I told Mrs. Cabell I would get Mexican food there. There are three places in the immediate vicinity, all of which we patronize from time to time.

The officer and I were in having our dinner when the proprietor came over and said that I was wanted on the phone. I picked up the receiver. I could hear traffic noises in the background, so I knew that the line was open. I said, Hello several times, and the receiver clicked in my ear. I thought that Mrs. Cabell had possibly tried to get hold of me, and I called her, and she said, "No, she had not." So it was obvious that someone who was either in the restaurant and had left when we came in, or had seen us enter the restaurant, put in this call, apparently just a nuisance or harassing type of thing.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had been in the restaurant did this call come?

Mr. CABELL. Oh, a matter of 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never found the source of that?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any investigation made?

Mr. CABELL. There was no way of making an investigation. The assumption is that the call was placed from one of the public telephones that are up and down that business section there.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, there have been some reports as to the authenticity or veracity of, for which I do not vouch at all, to the effect that some pressure was put upon Chief of Police Curry by you or others to cooperate with the press in all ways possible. I think in fairness I should give you an opportunity to comment upon that.

Mr. CABELL. There was one that has been rumored. One of our local weekly publications made that as a statement. That is completely false. At no time did I have any contact with Chief Curry to the extent that I gave him any orders, instructions, or make any comment upon the situation other than the contact which I have mentioned with reference to this proposed torchlight parade.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any pressure put upon him by anyone in authority over him?

Mr. CABELL. I do not know of any, and my assumption would be, and I say assumption, would be that none had been made, because I know how Mr. Crull operates to the extent that he would not interfere in the duties of his chief of police. Now I am sure that they had conversations with reference to security and that sort of thing, but I would question very definitely that any orders as such on that subject would have been issued by Mr. Crull.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, neither you nor anyone else, to your knowledge, did anything of that sort, to wit, bring pressure upon him in anyway whatsoever?

Mr. CABELL. That is entirely correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, do you have anything else to say, sir?

Mr. CABELL. No, sir; I don't know of anything else that I could add.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the commencement of the recordation of your testimony, we had a very short conversation, but will you agree with me now that there was nothing that was discussed in that conversation relating to the testimony that has not been actually covered in the deposition?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct. I recall no conversation of any sort pertaining to this incident that has not been covered in the examination under this deposition.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.

(The following questions were asked upon completion of the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mayor Cabell, I wonder if you would agree for just a couple of questions for your deposition to be continued under the same terms and conditions that I began, and that you are under the same oath?

Mr. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to comment, if you will, please, about the recordation of conversations on your telephone, telling us when the recordation system was set up, and when removed.

Mr. CABELL. It was set up on Sunday afternoon. That would have been the 24th; which recorded all conversations that came into action when the receiver was taken off the hook. It was removed on, I would say, after about 3 weeks. I am quite sure that it had been removed prior to December 31.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever learned of any conversations that were of a threatening nature?

Mr. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have not heard the tape, of course?

Mr. CABELL. No; I have not.

Mr. HUBERT. It is reasonable to suppose that if any had been recorded, it would have been brought to your attention?

Mr. CABELL. I am sure it would.

Mr. HUBERT. Who has the possession of that tape?

Mr. CABELL. The police department.

Mr. HUBERT. They still have it?

Mr. CABELL. I am assuming that they still have it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, thank you very much, sir. I certainly thank both of you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. EARLE CABELL

The testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell was taken at 10 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Earle Cabell. Mrs. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mrs. Cabell, you appear today by virtue of a letter addressed actually to you and your husband, Mayor Earle Cabell, by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, is that correct? That letter was dated either the 8th or 9th, or in any case was received on the 8th or 9th of July?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand, please, and take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CABELL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Please state your name for the record, please, ma'am.

Mrs. CABELL. Mrs. Earle Cabell.

Mr. HUBERT. You are the wife of former Mayor Earle Cabell?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You reside with him now at what address?

Mrs. CABELL. 5338 Drane.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I think you were with your husband in the presidential parade on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. CABELL. That's right.

Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would tell us in your own words what you observed concerning the shooting of the President. I might say that your husband has testified that you were in the second or third car behind the President's car--the third or fourth car.

Mrs. CABELL. Third or fourth. We have never been able to be sure about that, because we were under the impression--of course, the chief of police's car preceded the presidential car, and we were under the impression that it was the presidential car, the vice presidential car, the station wagon apparently with Secret Service men, and then our car. There have been other statements made which we have never been quite sure of, that there was a Secret Service car between the presidential car and the vice presidential car. If that is true, we were one car further back.

Mr. HUBERT. You were sitting on the rear seat of the convertible?

Mrs. CABELL. Behind the driver.

Mr. HUBERT. Behind the driver. That would have put----

Mrs. CABELL. Me on the left.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was on your right?

Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Ray Roberts?

Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was seated to the left of the driver on the front seat?

Mrs. CABELL. The right of the driver.

Mr. HUBERT. The right of the driver. Now will you tell us in your own words, ma'am, what you saw and heard concerning the President's death?

Mrs. CABELL. As my husband has told you, he had his back to the School Depository Building. He was looking back talking to us.

Congressman Roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned the same way. I was turned facing him. We were looking directly at each other. The position of our car was such that when that first shot rang out, my position was such that I did not have to turn to look at the building. I was directly facing it.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was still really on Houston?

Mrs. CABELL. No; we were making the turn.

Mr. HUBERT. Just on the turn?

Mrs. CABELL. Just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you see.

Mr. HUBERT. Since you were actually turned toward Representative Roberts on your right?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, you were facing----

Mrs. CABELL. The building.

Mr. HUBERT. The Texas Depository Building?

Mrs. CABELL. I was actually facing it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary nature, or heard?

Mrs. CABELL. I heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, I jerked my head up.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do that?

Mrs. CABELL. Because I heard the direction from which the shot came, and I just jerked my head up.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you see?

Mrs. CABELL. I saw a projection out of one of those windows. Those windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos.

Mr. HUBERT. In which window did you see the projection?

Mrs. CABELL. I have always been a little confused about that, but I think it was the first window.

Mr. HUBERT. On what floor?

Mrs. CABELL. On the top floor. Now I cannot take oath and say which window. There was some confusion in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say there were double windows. Is the confusion about whether it was the first or second double window, or the first or second window of the double windows?

Mrs. CABELL. The first or second window of the first group of double windows.

Mr. HUBERT. What was this projection?

Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. It was rather long looking, the projection.

Mr. HUBERT. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or something mechanical?

Mrs. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or a human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked my head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to say to Earle, Earle, it is a shot, and before I got the words out, just as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a----" the second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of confusion in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your attention from that window?

Mrs. CABELL. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you were not looking in the direction of that window when the second and third shots were fired?

Mrs. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in that direction thereafter?

Mrs. CABELL. If I did, I don't recall. I am completely aware of the people running up that hill. I saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. I saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. I saw the policeman running up the grassy slope.

Mr. HUBERT. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?

Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that after all the shots were fired?

Mrs. CABELL. I believe so. There was much confusion.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?

Mrs. CABELL. Of gunpowder.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?

Mrs. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the hospital?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the observation to anyone at that time that you had smelled gunpowder?

Mrs. CABELL. No; because there was too much confusion. But I mentioned it to Congressman Roberts when we were in Washington a couple of weeks ago.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he had observed it?

Mrs. CABELL. As well as I remember, he said "Yes." We were in a group, a large group, and there was much conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any other spontaneous remarks by anyone else? By spontaneous remarks, I mean remarks made then, not later.

Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts--and I believe this was after the third shot, because we were dead still for a matter of some seconds--then when the motorcade started up, Congressman Roberts said--these might not be his exact words, but this is what he meant: "If all is well ahead, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting out."

Mr. HUBERT. His previous remark about the caliber of the rifle, which you did not at that time understand, was made after the third shot was fired and before you began to move?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any other remark made by anyone other than those that you have covered?

Mrs. CABELL. No; except that as the motorcade started up, he said, "If all is well----

Mr. HUBERT. Who said?

Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts said, "If all is well, we are headed for Love Field. We are getting out."

Mr. HUBERT. Did the driver say anything, to your knowledge?

Mrs. CABELL. I don't recall that he said a word.

Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you were standing absolutely still for a few seconds, did you have occasion, or did you in fact look up at that window again?

Mrs. CABELL. Not again, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the hospital too?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with your husband?

Mrs. CABELL. When we reached the hospital, the Presidential car was pulled up toward the slot ordinarily reserved for ambulances, which pulled us up a little closer to the entrance of the hospital. And as my husband jumped out of the car, he turned around and looked at me and said, "Stay in the car." And I believe at that time that Congressman Roberts got out of the car. The Texas delegation was standing around the cars at that time. And I sat in the car with our driver for quite some time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long, about?

Mrs. CABELL. I cannot tell you. Time left me that day. I sat there for quite a long time. I stood up and I saw them taking the President out of the car. I saw my husband by the carriage when the Governor was taken out of the car. Then our driver, after they went into the hospital, turned the car radio on and we and the other members of the Texas delegation, Senator Yarborough, all of the others--the delegation moved back and forth from the car where I was sitting, up to the door of the hospital. It is my impression that none of them went in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go in?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes; twice. Do you want me to tell you both times?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma'am.

Mrs. CABELL. Well, this is a little difficult for me to tell.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. What I am interested in is whether or not you saw Jack Ruby there. Did you know him prior to that time?

Mrs. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen his pictures?

Mrs. CABELL. Since; but I had never seen him before.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him at any place that you went in the hospital, in front of the hospital, or about the hospital on that day?

Mrs. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In order to know where you were, to exclude your seeing him there, would you tell us just what places you were?

Mrs. CABELL. In the hospital?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you out there for some time?

Mrs. CABELL. There came a time when it was necessary for me to find a ladies' room. I walked up to one of the many police officers at the door and I said, Officer, I am Mrs. Earle Cabell. He said, "Yes, Mrs. Cabell, I know." I have no idea which officer it was. I said, "It is necessary for me to go into the ladies' room. Can you get me in?" He said, "I can try." He had quite a good deal of trouble getting me in and identifying me. They did not let me go in until a nurse's aid was brought to the door. They did not let me stay on the first floor where the emergency section was. They took me to the left. This nurse's aid took me to the left with the police officer following, and we crossed the cafeteria and went over toward the front of the building. The nurse's aid went into the ladies' room with me. The policeman stood at the door. We went back the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me who was guarding the front door so that there was some difficulty getting you in.

Mrs. CABELL. I do not know. An elderly man in shirt sleeves, that I remember. I assume he was a part of the hospital personnel. I don't really know that to be true.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there police or State police or city police?

Mrs. CABELL. They were everywhere.

Mr. HUBERT. But you mean they were checking people going into the hospital?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes. Then as I came in, the policeman escorted me back to our car. I sat there again, I do not know how much longer I sat, but somebody brought me a Coca-Cola. We, as you know, had nothing to eat or drink since coffee at Mr. and Mrs. Eric Jonsson's, where we gathered before going to Love Field. Then a man came up to me. I have to assume that he was a Secret Service man. He said, "Are you Mrs. Earle Cabell?" I said, "Yes." He said, "There are no ladies presently with Mrs. Kennedy. We feel that it might be nice if you go in." So I handed my partially drunk Coca-Cola to the driver, and I went in with this man. Another thing that makes me think he had some authority was that this second time when we got to the door, this man said, "This is Mrs. Earle Cabell," and we walked right in.

Mr. HUBERT. He said that to whom?

Mrs. CABELL. The man at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. The same man that had been at the door before?

Mrs. CABELL. I assume it was. There was such a short time that elapsed. He took me down. You turn to the right as you went in the door down this very wide hall, and as we were going down the hall, we met my husband coming toward us going out. I looked at him and he said, "I will be back." So we walked on in to this smaller hallway which separated the emergency rooms, either side of them. Mrs. Kennedy was sitting just outside the door of Emergency Room No. 1 in a straight chair. I walked up to her----

Mr. HUBERT. She was alone?

Mrs. CABELL. She was alone. There were, I am sure, Secret Service men. There was a group of men standing behind her, but she was sitting alone. I walked up to her and I said, "Mrs. Kennedy, I am Elizabeth Cabell. I wish there was something that I could do to help." And in a very dazed manner she said, "Yes, I remember you gave me the roses." And somebody put a chair by her for me and we sat there for just a few moments. And she said, "I would like a cigarette." My purse was on the floor behind my chair. I turned around to pick up my purse to give her a cigarette, and when I turned back around, she was walking into Emergency Room No. 2. I judge that it was next to the President, the room the President's body was in, and her purse was on a carriage in that emergency room. She was fumbling in her purse, and I said to her, "I have a cigarette here for you." It was exactly as though she had not heard me. She didn't answer me at all, and she kept fumbling in her purse and finally she came up with a cigarette. Then she turned to me as though she had never seen me before, but said, "But I don't have a match." And I said, "I have a match here for you." I lighted her cigarette and she turned around and walked out of that emergency room. We went back to the two chairs outside of Emergency Room No. 1 and sat down.

Just at that time I looked up and saw a Catholic priest coming toward us. It was not Father Huber. It was a man I did not recognize. I later understood he was the Catholic chaplain of the hospital. I am not sure about that. I got up and walked a few steps to meet him, and I said, "Father, take my chair by Mrs. Kennedy." Which he did do. In the meantime, my husband had come back in, and I stepped back where my husband was standing, and we stood there until the casket was wheeled out.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any announcement made to Mrs. Kennedy of the death of her husband?

Mrs. CABELL. Not while I was in there. I am under the impression--you see, I was still sitting out in the car when they brought Vice President, I guess then, and Mrs. Johnson out and put them in the car and took them away.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the President's death when you went to Mrs. Kennedy?

Mrs. CABELL. Congressman Roberts had come back to the car and said, "He is gone."

Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that Mrs. Kennedy then knew of the death of her husband when you first came up to her?

Mrs. CABELL. That is my impression. We did not discuss it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that there was a telephone call received by you that was of a threatening nature?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about that, please, ma'am? The time and so forth?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes; it was New Year's Eve. Of necessity, the security had asked us not to be out, that so many people had come in for the New Year's Day game, that they were uneasy. There was the possibility that Chief Justice Warren might come. There was the rumor that he might come. There was the rumor that the President himself might come. We knew that the President's daughters were here, so they asked us not to wander around that night. We have spent New Year's night for many years with a very close group of friends, so we invited them to our home that night, but we explained to them that early in the evening and under rather heavy security, we went downtown to the Sheraton Hotel into a private suite to greet the Under Secretary of Navy and his wife. We stayed in this group possibly 30 or 40 minutes and then we went back to our home. At that time security had been lessened in our home. There were only two men with us at all times then. It had been much heavier earlier. The men had been in our home so long that they were like members of the family almost. They knew most of our guests because they had accompanied us on the Christmas parties and festivities that we went to. We were never without them.

We did not drive our own cars for 2 months. So most of these guests were known to the security officers that were in our home that night. But I am again hazy on the time. It must have been about 11 o'clock. I walked back into our bedroom for something, and the phone rang back there. I picked it up. This man's voice--it was not a kid, it was not a drunk--said, "Mrs. Cabell?" I said, Yes. He said, "We are coming to kill that God damn mayor now." And hung up the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me, do you have a listed number?

Mrs. CABELL. An unlisted number. That is what startled us.

Mr. HUBERT. It is an unlisted number?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes; it is an unlisted number, and that is what startled us. I walked out of the bedroom through the living room, through the dining room, and into the kitchen and caught the eye of one of the security officers and motioned to him. He followed me back into the bedroom, and I closed the door and told him what had happened. He walked straight to the phone and called his superior officer.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, did this seem to be a local call, or long distance?

Mrs. CABELL. I have no way of knowing. When I picked up the phone and said "Hello," this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell."

Mr. HUBERT. And he said what you have just said, and that is all?

Mrs. CABELL. He hung up before I did. So Officer Beaty picked up the phone and called his superior. I had said to him, "Please ask what to do about our guests." Because there had always been the thinking among the security officers, the possibility of a bomb being thrown at the house.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you, was your unlisted phone number carefully guarded or kept?

Mrs. CABELL. No, no. It was given to our church. It was given to the press. They all had it. They had to talk to Earle. It was given to some organizations to which we belonged. The thinking on our part was that we wanted to be available to responsible people. It was merely the crank calls that we were trying to avoid after Earle went in office.

Mr. HUBERT. So it was rather widely disseminated, and I suppose recorded by those people?

Mrs. CABELL. Who it had been given to; that's right. So it was not an impossible number to obtain. It couldn't be in Earle's position.

Mr. STOREY. (after shortly entering the room). Mr. Hubert, I might say I had trouble in finding it the one time I wanted to call the mayor.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, Mrs. Cabell, I have nothing more to ask you. If you have anything you would like to say concerning the subjects we have covered, or anything else pertinent to the inquiry, we would be glad to hear from you.

Mrs. CABELL. I do not know of anything that would be of any help except that from Earle's experience at Tupinamba, that somebody knew when those police cars pulled in and out of that driveway. There was always one facing the street. They were not squad cars. They were cars that the Special Service men drove. They were Galaxies, different color, but they all carried the license that people who knew about things like that could recognize them as being a police car. One evening Chief Curry called and talked to my husband and said things had been so quiet that if you and Mrs. Cabell feel all right about it, I am going to bring the boys in. And my husband said, "Now Chief, that has always been up to you. Whatever you think, is what we want you to do. Within 30 minutes, I would say, after the security officers and the cars had gone, a threatening call came through the police switchboard, so within another 30 minutes the security was back.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what that was?

Mrs. CABELL. No; I cannot give you the date.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know of it?

Mrs. CABELL. I didn't know it until the next morning. The boys didn't come in the house that night. Earle didn't know it. We have a very trusted colored man who has been with us 26 years, and when he used his own key to come in the house next morning, I said, "Well, Phillip, I guess you miss our friends." And he said, "Mrs. Cabell, they haven't gone. They are outside." And I looked out the kitchen window and there they were. I went out----

Mr. HUBERT. You don't know, do you, whether that threatening call made reference to the fact that the security had been removed?

Mrs. CABELL. No; I do not. But the thinking on the part of the police was that somebody was watching that driveway, because the call came in within 30 minutes after the car had gone.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else that you wish to say?

Mrs. CABELL. Only that, and days again escape me--I think it was the day of the President's funeral, my husband was in Washington. This can be verified, because by that time all of our phone calls were recorded. The phone rang early one afternoon, and I picked it up, and this man's voice said, "Mrs. Cabell." I said "Yes." He said, "This is so-and-so--and the name I did not catch, or recall--said "I am with one of the news media. I would like to come out for an interview." Or words to that effect. And I said, "Well, Mr. Cabell is not here. You will have to talk to him about that." Then he said to me, "How heavily are you being guarded out there? Do you still have security?" And I don't know what I said, but I put it off. I passed it off. And by that time I had motioned to the security man that was in the next room, and he picked up the receiver, but the man had hung up by that time.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that your calls were being recorded as early as the date of the President's funeral?

Mrs. CABELL. No; earlier.

Mr. HUBERT. Earlier?

Mrs. CABELL. Because the telephone men were out there within an hour after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. They set up a recordation system whereby all calls could be recorded?

Mrs. CABELL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that still on at the time of New Year's Eve?

Mrs. CABELL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that removed?

Mrs. CABELL. I can't tell you. Sometime during that 2 months, but I cannot say when.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do not think it was on at the time of the New Year's Eve call?

Mrs. CABELL. I am sure it wasn't, because the little recording machine, or whatever it was, had been----

Mr. HUBERT. Soundscriber?

Mrs. CABELL. Had been removed, and I believe I am correct in saying that that was removed at the time, and I can't give you a date, that they cut down to only two officers at a time being with us. For a long time there were two with me and two with Earle and two at the house.

Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Cabell, I don't think there was actually any conversation much before the recordation of your deposition began between us, but in any case, I think you will agree with me that nothing was covered during the unrecorded conversation we had that has not been recorded here?

Mrs. CABELL. As far as I know; that is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, ma'am.

Mrs. CABELL. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF PHILLIP L. WILLIS

The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you raise your right hand [standing]? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WILLIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you wish to have him here. You are entitled to 3 days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled to exercise whatever privileges there are available to you as far as not answering questions are concerned. I assume that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without an attorney present, because you are here without one?

Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WILLIS. Phillip L. Willis.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, sir?

Mr. WILLIS. 2824 Ava Lane, Dallas 27, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. WILLIS. August 2, 1918.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. WILLIS. Kaufman County, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Texas throughout most of your life?

Mr. WILLIS. All my life, with the exception of my military service.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived here in Dallas?

Mr. WILLIS. Since April 1, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. What business are you engaged in, or by whom are you employed?

Mr. WILLIS. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent real estate broker.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, at the time of the assassination; is that correct?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me where you were and what you saw happen, and what you did at that time?

Mr. WILLIS. I had a driver drop my family and I in the parkway so that we could have a chance to get a good view of the President's party, having taken my children out of school for the occasion. We were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street approaching the area on Main, and I stood at the corner of Main and Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and making the turn onto Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the corner, you say?

Mr. WILLIS. At the corner of Houston and Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you saw him----

Mr. WILLIS. Across from the county jail on the parkway there near the esplanade.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you saw the motorcade coming down Main Street, did you?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes; we could see it for a block or two.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then the motorcade turned onto Houston and you took some pictures at that time?

Mr. WILLIS. I remained there until I got the shot of the President approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston approaching the turn they were to make onto Elm. Then I immediately ran across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the curb in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine, on the edge of the street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got the occupants in the center. I was that close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that you are depicted in a picture which is in the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life magazine in a picture that you said you were in the upper left-hand corner of page 4; is that correct?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the individual who stands almost directly behind the first motorcycle policeman in that picture, and you are shown with a camera?

Mr. WILLIS. With my camera raised; yes, sir. The little girl in the red dress and white scarf and coat is my daughter.

Mr. LIEBELER. The farthest person in the right in the back of that picture?

Mr. WILLIS. The farthest person in that picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you stand at that particular spot the entire time, or did you move down Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have, as I understand it, a series of 12 slides, which apparently have been prepared by something called Phil Willis Enterprises, and which I understand is being marketed, at least in the Dallas area?

Mr. WILLIS. We haven't done anything with them as yet, but I am the only one, I am told, who has a complete set of the prints covering the last 25 seconds of the President's life and the assassination and the tragedy following.

I was so shocked I didn't sell any, like everyone did at the moment. And the same people who bought those said they would have been invaluable had I brought them to them, but it didn't dawn on me to do that. And later there has been so many requests because of the historical nature, that we felt compelled to make them available to the public.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I now show you and I suggest to you that it is one of the pictures that is a picture made from one of the slides.

Mr. WILLIS. I made that picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. You made that picture yourself?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the same as slide No. 5? In your series of slides?

Mr. WILLIS. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us when that picture was made?

Mr. WILLIS. That picture was made at the very instant that the first shot was fired. As a matter of fact, the fellow standing on the ledge under the right-hand corner of the Stemmons Highway sign is a gentleman who took the last pictures that appeared in Life, and his pictures showed that this instant with this sign in between the photographer and the President, shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his throat.

This was pointed out to the Secret Service and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Picture No. 2 will verify that, in Life magazine. You see the highway sign that he has the rear of, is the one I have the front of. And as he approached this same sign in this film, he has already grabbed his throat. That is verified by that fact.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to the pictures on page 4 of the memorial edition of Life magazine. Picture No. 1 shows you standing, as we have already indicated, standing back with your camera?

Mr. WILLIS. Picture 2 shows the President just as the car comes from behind this sign, and it shows that he has already reached for his throat at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sign in question is one that reads "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right", and the front of that sign appears in the picture that you took which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. WILLIS. The only one in that vicinity. It has to be the same one. You will also note in my first picture, he is facing the outside of the street and smiling and waving, and he had already turned his head the other way when I have the picture in question here from the rear.

That same picture from the other side of the street in Life shows he has grabbed his throat when they proceeded to that point of the sign in question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go through that again. I didn't understand it. Let me remind you of this. When you mention a picture, let's try and refer to them by numbers, because if you do that, I won't have to repeat it again, because we have to get the numbers down on the record. You were making a point just a minute ago about something that I didn't understand. You were referring to some of the pictures in Life magazine, and also to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is the picture you took.

Mr. WILLIS. All right, sir, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which is a copy of the picture I took, shows the President's car had proceeded almost past the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. Referring back to panel No. 2 of the Life Memorial Edition of Life magazine on page 4, it shows that Mrs. Kennedy has her hand over her mouth, and the President has already grabbed his throat. That picture shows that his car has not passed the Stemmons sign completely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. WILLIS. Referring back to Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which I took, the President's car in fact has passed the Stemmons sign, and he has turned the opposite direction from the previous picture that I took close up, and it proves without question that at this instant the President had been hit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you mentioned the picture that you took, the other picture that you took close up. Is that included in your set of slides here?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; it is slide No. 4, which you see doesn't include the front or the rear of the President's car, but the center. That is proving how close it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Picture No. 4 in your group of slides was taken shortly before picture No. 5 was taken, is that right?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; not more than 3 seconds.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which picture you were taking or you took at the time that is shown here in panel No. 1 of this memorial edition of Life magazine?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; the number just mentioned, slide No. 4, the closeup of the President directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now from the time that you took No. 4, and when you took No. 4, you were standing as shown in picture No. 1 in Life magazine?

Mr. WILLIS. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do before you took No. 5, which we have marked here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1? Did you move down the street, or were you standing in the same place, or do you remember?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; as human nature would guide in an instance of this importance, I moved down the street slightly to try to get another view, and, of course, I had the camera looking through the viewfinder to try to get another picture of him before he went out of range. I moved as far as I could within that 3 seconds.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not able to tell us exactly where you were when you took the picture that we have here as Hudson Exhibit No. 1, but it was a little bit farther on down Elm Street, still on the grassy area described by Elm and Main Street; is that correct?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I can verify that where I was going back to Life magazine again, because this picture No. 2 on page 4 of the John F. Kennedy Memorial Edition of Life, there is a tree in the background. The only tree in that immediate vicinity on that side of the street. And the shadow of that tree is shown in slide No. 5 that I took, which would show my position.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. I see you would have to study just from where the sun was coming, but it could be determined where you were standing, and we could also apparently determine it by lining it up with across the street?

Mr. WILLIS. Off the record. Let me say this. You see in No. 1 shot where I am shown, you can see this shadow on the ground from this tree. This little bush--there is the shadow from the tree. This tree is on the ground, so if you look in my picture here, you can see the shadow in that picture. So you see that I did move down approximately this far.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Now, you are certain that the first shot was fired at approximately the time or shortly at approximately the time you took the picture that has been marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1; is that right?

Mr. WILLIS. I am positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember hearing the shot?

Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely. I, having been in World War II, and being a deer hunter hobbyist, I would recognize a high-powered rifle immediately.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize this as a high-powered rifle?

Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard it just about the time you took the picture that has been marked?

Mr. WILLIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you took the picture, which is marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots were fired altogether, Mr. Willis?

Mr. WILLIS. Three shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about that at all?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me. But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I saw they were heading back toward their mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was she?

Mr. WILLIS. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete structure. How do you refer to that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection of Main Street and Houston Street?

Mr. WILLIS. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; that is the one across the street--no; here she was. She was in between Main, and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from where the President was hit.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete structure on Dealey Plaza?

Mr. WILLIS. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an opening.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking toward the triple underpass?

Mr. WILLIS. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that time--at that moment--and none in between her and the street to block her vision.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually observe the President when he was hit in the head?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not. I couldn't see that well, and I was more concerned about the shots coming from that building. The minute the third shot was fired, I screamed, hoping the policeman would hear me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. Being directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the street where the building was.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard the shots?

Mr. WILLIS. Absolutely.

Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?

Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?

Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that?

Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository?

Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you did not actually observe the President at the time he was hit in the head?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I was just taking a picture of him, and the presidential party in the car come through my viewfinder and my camera. But my little daughter ran back and said, "Oh, Daddy, they have shot our President. His whole head blew up, and it looked like a red halo."

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one? Is this the girl that is here today?

Mr. WILLIS. The little one was the one that made that remark. My youngest daughter, Rosemary. The one that is with me today also saw it, and she went back and told her mother the same thing. And her mother said, "Yes; I saw it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you see anything hitting in the street along the President's car as it went down Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were three shots fired? You heard three shots fired?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that the President had been hit by the first shot?

Mr. WILLIS. I didn't really know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell whether he was hit by the first shot? You couldn't tell whether he had been hit by the first shot or the second shot or the third shot, or by how many shots he had been hit?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, or which way?

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. In order to clarify some of the discussion we have had about the various number of slides, I want to mark a set of your slides as Willis Exhibit No. 1 and I have initialed a set of these, Mr. Willis, with my own initials, and I will ask you to do the same thing for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about when we refer to this exhibit.

(Mr. Willis marks initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We have already established that the picture that has been marked as Hudson's Exhibit No. 1 is a print made from the negative or from slide No. 5 on Willis' Exhibit No. 1; is that correct?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about the time the President was shot?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes; I did, after the third shot was fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody up there? Did you see anybody up there on those railroad tracks?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I had noticed before the President's arrival that there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did see policemen up there?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among the spectators.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how many spectators would you say were up there? Was there a big crowd?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. But I would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe 2 dozen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired from that direction?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. I saw people falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Across the street from Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIS. Across the street from Elm Street on the same side as the School Book Depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when I started to ring this building. I knew it came from high above directly across the street from me, and that is the one thing I was absolutely positive about.

Mr. LIEBELER. You made that judgment from the sound of the shots?

Mr. WILLIS. From the sound, absolutely. And this may be verified by the fact that I took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I notice.

Mr. WILLIS. I had no doubt about that, because I was that certain in my own mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any other questions about these pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about.

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of the presidential car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is that far in the background, way in the back of the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes; that would be the background.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think I would like to ask your daughter about three or four questions about what she saw of it. We might just bring her in while you are still here.

TESTIMONY OF LINDA KAY WILLIS

The testimony of Linda Kay Willis was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you as a witness. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss WILLIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I told your father, I am an attorney for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and I wanted to ask you two or three questions about that.

First of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please?

Miss WILLIS. Linda Kay Willis.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?

Miss WILLIS. I will be 15, July 29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father has told us that you were out in front of the School Book Depository Building along with your sister on the day of the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that correct?

Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there?

Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building?

Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there?

Miss WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"?

Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just stay right there, or did you go on down Elm Street?

Miss WILLIS. I stayed there. I was on the corner across from the courthouse when the motorcade first came down Main Street, and when it turned the corner on Houston, well, I followed along the street with the car, and then he turned the corner on Elm and I stood there where the Stemmons sign is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the President get hit in the head?

Miss WILLIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually saw the President get hit that way?

Miss WILLIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far away would you say that you were when you saw that?

Miss WILLIS. Oh, about twice as far as I am from here to this door. Maybe not quite that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 25 feet or so?

Miss WILLIS. About that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you saw the President get hit in the head, did you hear any more shots after that?

Miss WILLIS. Yes; the first one, I heard the first shot come and then he slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in the head.

Mr. LIEBELER. You only heard three shots altogether?

Miss WILLIS. Yes; that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you don't think there were any more shots after he got hit in the head?

Miss WILLIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots right away?

Miss WILLIS. No; when the first shot rang out, I thought, well, it's probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the President is in town. Then I realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then when I saw, when I realized that the President was falling over, I knew he had been hit. But I didn't know how badly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, I just wanted to ask you about whether you heard any shots after the President got hit in the head, and if you didn't hear any more shots, that is really all I wanted to ask you about. Thank you very much.

Miss WILLIS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM

The testimony of Helen Markham was taken at 10 a.m., on July 23, 1364, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony for the Commission pursuant to authority granted it by the President in Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the Commission because you have already testified before the Commission in Washington; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the Kennedys--President Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure, I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some questions about some of the things you told the Commission when you appeared before it on March 26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony before the Commission.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from New York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you, "Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr. Ball asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr. Ball asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?" And then you answered, No, sir."

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember giving that testimony at that time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't--I haven't never seen the man in my life.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in here, I wouldn't know who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you were in Washington, before today?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me they were reporters, came to my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking to him yourself?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never even talked to her even.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation between you and Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript which we will mark as Markham Exhibit No. 1----

Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me tell you now----

Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make arrangements--I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so you can tell us whether or not that is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let me tell you this--there was someone one day--this was all to me--I was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore mentioned]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he told me he was from the city.

Mr. LIEBELER. From here in Dallas?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told me he was--now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was Captain Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the police department of the city of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a number, a telephone number--do you remember the telephone number at your office where you worked; were you working?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what the telephone down there is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a number as that that you know of?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called this number here, Matthew 7-6797.

Mrs. MARKHAM. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I worked at was Riverside 8.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to know that.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he was from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me call the Secret Service.

Mrs. MARKHAM. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape.

Mrs. MARKHAM. All right.

(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m., as follows:)

Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you, Mrs. Markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the telephone some time ago?

The COURT REPORTER. How much of this tape recording do you want on the record here?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want any of this on the record now; however, I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I'll watch this.

(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, Mrs. Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record here begins with the question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began indicating her reactions.)

"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have your affidavit which you gave the police on that date.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would be good enough to talk to me?"

Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape recorder, Mrs. Markham.

John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to indicate by that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked to no woman or no man like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you following it along, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact transcript of the recording?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it says, Mark Lane. No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I got--nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize your voice here on the tape.

"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell you that." I don't have the time to.

"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had bushy hair.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that.

"Mr. LANE. You did not say that?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short.

"Mr. LANE. He was short?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy.

"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy.

"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather bushy kind of hair?"

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy.

"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.

"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did they bring you down to look at him?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup.

"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him.

"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup?

"Mr. LANE. Yes.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not.

"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing.

"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot Officer Tippit?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket.

"Mr. LANE. Yes.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers.

"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh.

"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not.

"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was closed--pretty close too.

"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned on it and placed his arms up against the car.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window.

"Mr. LANE. In the window?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all.

"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.

"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.

"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever it was, walked over to the car?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.

"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.

"Mr. LANE. He did what?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.

"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.

"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?

"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.

"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, because, you see, he leaned over in the window.

"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.

"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.

"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.

"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like that?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your affidavit, right?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point.

Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.

The REPORTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you mean by that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with somebody?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from me. That was my boss that told me--the one that said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because--you see--I had got a call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this man. Now, he told me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking you what the police did.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your affidavit.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this tape recording is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's voice on the tape now is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city police.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the officer roll the window down.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?"

You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with me?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my work.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that he was from the police department; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking.

Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a man answered the telephone.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he was from the police department when he called?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. LIEBELER. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you want me to look at?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show you--I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time and I don't know what it even means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, 1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas 21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr."

We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't have any trouble identifying it in the future.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just my initials?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just your initials.

(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It gives a post office box is all I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs--you never know who it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI 9-3195; did you notice that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I called that number off of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whose number that is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I believe it was either the police department--I don't know, but I called.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also have a telegram you want me to look at?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what you think about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows:

"Dear Mrs. Markham:

"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report on the findings of the Warren Commission.

"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction and will contact you personally concerning our request.

"I look forward to talking with you.

"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service U.S. Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319."

When did you receive this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well----

Mr. HOWLETT. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, was engaged with the Commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that right, as he indicated?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, this man--Buck Pennington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you think it would be all right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to.

Mr. LIEBELER. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he thinks you should do.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Would you write that address down?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward.

Mr. HOWLETT. That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do that or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will handle that aspect of it.

Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do anything like that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; may I use a pencil?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I just wrote Markham down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't have any other questions at this time.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, that just worries me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Because he told me he was from the police department. It never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I was going to get fired if I didn't get back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, will I get in any trouble over this?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to the telegram].

Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I would think that's right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD BAKER

The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BAKER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were married on February 1, 1963?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else?

Mrs. BAKER. That's me.

Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs. Donald S. Baker?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November 24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but you had already been married at that time; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. I married this year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964?

Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964--I'm sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Last year?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him around the building?

Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at all?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what you did?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, we came out of the building across the street at approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President waved and he got down----

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the motorcade came along?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front of the Depository and then there is--I don't know what you would call it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not?

Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't--I have never seen one.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with some trees on it; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes Elm Street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a triangular plot of grass.

Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in the street--Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street that runs right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass.

Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle, is that Main Street?

Mrs. BAKER. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were standing?

Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that the Texas School Book Depository is located?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the pavement.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise came from when you first heard it?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there where he was--where the President's car was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time you heard the first noise?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it had gone when you heard the first shot?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President?

Mrs. BAKER. Not too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard the first shot; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture there?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right."

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see that sign?

Mrs. BAKER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.

Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.

Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit the street--what did it look like when you saw it?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side--near the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?

Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane--I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right.

Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. BAKER. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware that they were shots?

Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza--the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind there--this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and we didn't see anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street that runs in front of the School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all?

Mrs. BAKER. Just a policeman and several people were down there around the tracks working.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the assassin?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard at the time?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building at all while you were standing there?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the windows in that building?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the interview that you gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you came up and said he saw everything; is that so?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have been later that afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all this?

Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had been sitting?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up real high--I presume he was up there on top.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce all come together?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down here--when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce.

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't sound like it was too far off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly from the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. Let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker, if we can.

Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle around it and its right in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Elm Street in the right-hand lane.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere?

Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of Elm Street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of Elm Street toward the Dealey Plaza.

Mrs. BAKER. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across Elm Street there appears to be another tree just down from the wall.

Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there.

Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there?

Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign.

Mrs. BAKER. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the corner of Dealey Plaza closest towards the School Book Depository Building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here--between the sign and the tree.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and I have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of our record?

Mrs. BAKER. [Complied with request of Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you look at that picture and see if you can tell from it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the spot where the bullet hit?

Mrs. BAKER. It would be back in here behind this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been where you were standing or where the bullet hit?

Mrs. BAKER. I really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but it was right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as we look at this picture this is Baker Exhibit No. 1, starting from the left front, there are--there is a car down there and there is a Volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there are two cars immediately behind the Volkswagen and then there is a convertible out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think you might have been standing somewhere behind the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Either there or right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right in back around the second car behind the Volkswagen?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area and the trees that lie between Elm Street and the little street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository, doesn't it?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, where that thing might have hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It may not be in this picture--I don't know that it is.

Mrs. BAKER. I just can't tell--I would say it was over in here somewhere in this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Somewhere in about here?

Mrs. BAKER. It could have been further on up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will mark the place "X", but you think it might have been right along here or somewhere farther down. Now, is there a concrete divider somewhere here on Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Not until you pass the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not until you get down here towards the underpass and then there are concrete dividers here between Elm Street and Main Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Back up here toward the intersection at Houston Street, there is a curb on the side of Elm Street and that's all?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you turn down from Houston Street and go right on down Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the second shot; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure of that?

Mrs. BAKER. I hope I am--I know I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. In marking the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 that we marked, we were assuming, were we not, that the "X" was fairly near the first sign on the right-hand side of Elm Street going toward the triple underpass after the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. I think that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we will find that the "X" is--well, it is very difficult to tell the exact spot from which Baker Exhibit No. 1 was taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from the side of Main Street toward Commerce Street, then the "X" would not be in the right place, would it, if this lampost here that appears in the picture is actually at the end of the grassy spot made by Main Street and Elm Street, then the "X" that we have on Baker Exhibit No. 1 would be too far down toward the Triple Underpass to be in the right place where you saw it hit, isn't that right; do you follow me?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot, if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between Elm Street and Main Street, this "X" is very close to the Triple Underpass.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the street, did you?

Mrs. BAKER. No; not that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been much closer, up towards the Texas School Book Depository Building--near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. This right here are the steps--to the plaza.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer to the triple underpass than we had originally thought, because in the left-hand side of the picture you can see the steps coming down from the plaza.

Mrs. BAKER. It must have been right here in this area because these were the steps--I can't tell which sign is which, but I know there were four girls standing near the sign and it must have been back up here because there must have been another sign closer up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which was taken at the time of the assassination, it shows Dealey Plaza here and there are some steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture and they go down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past Elm Street here.

Mrs. BAKER. This would be the first sign here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign.

Mrs. BAKER. This one over here--the steps are already here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the steps are toward the background in Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and those appear to be the steps that are also toward the front left of Baker Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. BAKER. It was probably back over this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, so the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 is actually in the wrong place as far as these pictures here--it is not correct--it should be further back on up here.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will put a "Y" back up here toward the School Book Depository Building, and actually if you look at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you can see the steps coming right down to Elm Street.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the end of Dealey Plaza toward the Triple Underpass, and I think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left front foreground of Baker Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. BAKER. That's the sign right in there--that big sign there, and I don't know--the sign would be here, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and the sign that we see in the very left front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward the Triple Underpass from the steps to go down to Dealey Plaza on the right-hand side of Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; this is confusing.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a bullet, it would have been the first shot?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything else around the area of the Texas School Book Depository Building that day that you think might have anything to do with the assassination?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone passed out and I guess it would be to the left, coming down Elm Street over in this plaza between Elm Street and Main, because an ambulance pulled up and picked someone up--we never could tell who. This was before the motorcade ever got to Houston Street--I would say onto Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how long before the motorcade came did this ambulance come and pick up this person?

Mrs. BAKER. I'll judge--5 minutes--about 5 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The ambulance had already left the area about 5 minutes before the Presidential motorcade came?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you come to work that morning; do you remember?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, it could have been 6:30 or 7, because I rode with daddy; my daddy works behind the Depository for the Katy Railroad and if he had to be there at 6, then I got there at 6, but that morning, I couldn't tell you, but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's when I had to be there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald on the morning of November 22 at any time?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Billy Lovelady?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and I call your attention to a man standing in the doorway of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him?

Mrs. BAKER. That looks like Billy.

Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like Billy Lovelady?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the picture to the right of the mark "A" in the picture?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And is standing directly against the side of the doorway of the building--of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. If you don't have anything else you would like to tell us about this that you think we should know and that I haven't asked you, I have no other questions at this point.

Mrs. BAKER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. ALTGENS

The testimony of James W. Altgens was taken at 12:45 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ALTGENS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Altgens, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one. If you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all right. You are entitled to 3 days' notice and you may actually have gotten 3 days' notice, but if you did not, I presume you are prepared to go ahead, since you are here?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; as a matter of fact I had more than 3 days' notice because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an additional week, so I had plenty of time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. ALTGENS. James W. Altgens [spelling], A-l-t-g-e-n-s.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. ALTGENS. 6441 Pemberton [spelling], P-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n Drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas at the present time?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity?

Mr. ALTGENS. Officially, I am hired as a wire photo operator, but they use me in three different classifications. I am a photographer and a news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. ALTGENS. The Associated Press, Dallas Bureau.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by the AP?

Mr. ALTGENS. Approximately 26-1/2 Years.

Mr. LIEBELER. So one might say you are an experienced photographer and have a little experience in the area of photographic work?

Mr. ALTGENS. I would assume so.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, sir?

Mr. ALTGENS. April 28, 1919.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. Here; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived most of your life here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. All except my service connected time.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have been advised that on November 22, 1963, you were assigned to take pictures of the Presidential motorcade; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of November the 22d?

Mr. ALTGENS. Would you like for me to take it from the time that I arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALTGENS. I arrived on the triple overpass at approximately 11:15 a.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad tracks that cross over Elm, Commerce, and Main Streets?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. As they run near the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. As well as in the opposite direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALTGENS. My original assignment was to make a pictorial scene of the caravan with the Dallas skyline in the background and the triple overpass was selected as the site for making that picture, and when I arrived on the triple overpass there was no one up there but two uniformed policemen and one of the uniformed policemen came over to me and asked me if I was a railroad employee and I told him, "No," and I showed him my press tag and told him I had a Department of Public Safety ID card showing I was connected with the AP--Associated Press, and he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but this is private property. It belongs to the railroad and only railroad employees are permitted on this property." And, I explained to him that this was a public event and I thought I would be privileged to make a picture from that area, and he says, "No. This is private property and no one but railroad personnel are permitted in this area."

This is a little extraneous but I wanted to point this out, and I said, "Well, it looks like you have got it pretty well protected from this area because I see you two uniformed policemen on this overpass and I see you have another uniformed policeman on the overpass on Stemmons," and he said, "Yes, and no one is permitted over on that overpass." So, then, I had to decide on another location for shooting my pictures, so I proceeded on across the triple overpass into the parking lot which is just behind the Book Depository Building and proceeded on down to Elm to the corner of Elm and Houston, crossed Elm going--is that east or south--I guess it is south on Houston. Yes; south on Houston over to Main and Houston. That seemed to me to be the most likely spot to make any pictures. Then I could, by advance planning, get away from that spot after I had made a picture or two and run across the Dealey Plaza and catch the caravan again down on Elm as it proceeded toward the triple overpass and probably get some more pictures, and that was my planning.

Well, I was at that site when the Presidential caravan arrived at that intersection.

Mr. LIEBELER. That intersection being the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets?

Mr. ALTGENS. Houston and Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Houston and Main?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Houston and Main. When the caravan reached Houston and Main I made at least one shot--one picture--I don't have the roll of film with me now so I don't know exactly, but I know I had made an additional one or two pictures of the caravan coming down Main Street prior to that, but I got the one picture with the President waving into the camera. Mrs. Kennedy was looking at me at the time, just as I got ready to snap it the north wind caught her hat and almost blew it off, so she raised her left hand to grab her hat and I did not get her looking into the camera, but I got the Governor and Mrs. Connally and the President with the President waving into the camera.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was as they turned?

Mr. ALTGENS. This was as they turned into the sunlight.

Mr. LIEBELER. Turning into Houston Street; is that right?

Mr. ALTGENS. Turning right--headed toward the Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right.

Mr. ALTGENS. I thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that I carry my extra lenses in and ran fast down across the Dealey Plaza to get down in front of the caravan for some additional pictures and I took this one picture----

Mr. LIEBELER. Wait just a minute now--at this point, as you ran across, you were along Elm Street; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I ran across and reached up into--well, the curb area on the west side of Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that would be of any help to you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing.

Mr. ALTGENS. This is the Book Depository Building, correct?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

(The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.)

Mr. ALTGENS. This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I that approximately where you were standing?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning from Main Street to the right on Houston Street, you then ran across this Dealey Plaza?

Mr. ALTGENS. Down this way; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Along the lawn part.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the point marked No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And at that point did you take another picture?

Mr. ALTGENS. I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much of course--at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where the sound came from when you were standing there at No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you so certain of that, Mr. Altgens?

Mr. ALTGENS. Because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the President's head, I was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--I looked--I looked because I knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "over here," you indicate what?

Mr. ALTGENS. The left side of the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be approximately the intersection of Elm Street and the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS. Somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. But if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy and there was no one in that area that I could see with any firearms, so I looked back up in this area.

Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of Houston Street and Elm Street; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time--well, he was in a position--sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side--all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this Depository Building, but at no time did I know for certain where the shot came from.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you didn't see who fired it?

Mr. ALTGENS. Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

The car never did stop. It was proceeding along in a slow pace and I stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the Secret Service man stepped upon the rear step of the Presidential car and went to Mrs. Kennedy's aid and then after that I immediately crossed the street and once again I was looking to see if I could find anything in this area of Elm and Houston Streets that would suggest to me where the shot came from.

Moreover, I was interested in knowing whether or not somebody else had been struck by a bullet or one of the bullets in this area. I saw that no one else had been hit. I did notice after I got on this side of the street, that would be on the opposite side of the Presidential car from where I was standing originally, which would be the left side of the car from where I was standing--looking up toward the building--I saw people looking out of windows. I saw a couple of Negroes looking out of a window which I later learned was the floor below where the gun--where the sniper's nest was supposed to have been, but it didn't register on me at the time that they were looking from an area that the bullet might have come from. There was utter confusion at the time I crossed the street. The Secret Service men, uniformed policemen with drawn guns that went racing up this little incline and I thought----

Mr. LIEBELER. When you speak of "little incline" that means the area--the little incline on the grassy area here by this concrete structure across Elm Street toward the School Book Depository Building, is that part of Dealey Plaza too over in here, this concrete structure, or is Dealey Plaza only the name ascribed to this area here between Elm Street and Commerce Street?

Mr. ALTGENS. I really don't know, sir--I don't know whether this is considered part of the Dealey Plaza or whether this is just something extra as you might have for dressing.

Mr. LIEBELER. The part we are referring to that we are not just sure if it is a part of Dealey Plaza lies between Elm Street and the railroad tracks that run behind it over here and from the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, and this little grassy area that you have just mentioned is just between the area formed by Elm Street and the street that runs directly in front of the School Book Depository Building; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

I started up the incline with--or, after the officers, because they were moving well ahead of me and I was moving behind them thinking perhaps if they had the assassin cornered I wanted a picture, but before I had gotten over one-quarter of the way up the incline, I met the officers coming back and I presumed that they were just chasing shadows, so to speak, because there was no assassin in the area apparently, but I didn't learn the location of the sniper's nest until I was en route out to Parkland Hospital to continue my assignment and I heard it on the radio, that the assassin's nest was in the sixth floor window of the Book Depository Building.

After that I made a good look through this area to see that no one else had been hit. I noticed the couple that were on the ground over here with their children, I saw them when they went down and they were in the area and laid there some time after the Presidential car had disappeared.

Mr. LIEBELER. They threw themselves on the ground in this grassy area that I have just described previously where you ran across after this last shot?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; but they were not hit. I looked at them and they weren't hit by a bullet, so I took another long look around before I started my dash back to the office, and as it turned out, my report was the first that our service had on the assassination and my pictures were the only pictures we had available for a period of about 24 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have a picture here which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 203 and I ask you if that is not the first picture that you took after you left the intersection of Main and Houston and crossed Dealey Plaza and stood on the side of Elm Street across from the Texas School Book Depository Book Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that as the picture which you took?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the individuals depicted in that picture?

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously, I believe, that the first shot that was fired had just been fired momentarily before you took the picture, is that right?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was so close you could almost say it was simultaneous because it was coincidental but nevertheless that's just the way it happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you first heard this shot, did you see any reaction either on the part of the President or anyone else that indicated they might have been hit by this shot?

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; and as a matter of fact, I did not know that Governor Connally had been hit until one of our reporters got the information out at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. As the Presidential car went down Elm Street, did you observe Governor Connally's movements at all, did you see what he was doing?

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; my attention was primarily on the President and Mrs. Kennedy and I just wasn't paying too much attention about the other people in the car after what I saw happen. Of course, my concern was about the President and I just wasn't paying too much attention to others in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure in your mind, however, that there were no shots, a noise that sounded like shots, prior to the time at which you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I did not--you see--all of these shots sounded the same. If you heard one you would recognize the other shots and these were all the same. It was a pop that I don't believe I could identify it any other way than as a firecracker and this particular picture was made at the time the first firecracker noise was heard by me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you don't think that there could have been any other shots fired prior to that time that you wouldn't have heard, you were standing right there and you would have heard them, would you not?

Mr. ALTGENS. I'm sure I would have--yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the President was hit in the head?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us approximately how many shots there were between the first and the last shot--as you well know--there were supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I wouldn't want to say--I don't want to guess, because facts are so important on something like this. I am inclined to feel like that there were not as many as I have heard people say. I think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but I cannot--I can really only vouch for the two. Now, I know that there was at least one shot in between.

Mr. LIEBELER. At least one?

Mr. ALTGENS. I would say that--I know there was one in between. It is possible there might have been another one--I don't really know, but two, I can really account for.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that's the first one and the last one?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection as to the spacing of these shots?

Mr. ALTGENS. They seemed to be at almost regular intervals and they were quick.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much time do you think elapsed between the first and the last shot?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, let's see--I would have to figure it out on a speed basis because they were going at approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour downhill and I would say that all the shots were fired within the space of less than 30 seconds. That's an estimate.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far away was the Presidential car when you took the picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 203--you must have had your camera focused?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; it was about 30 feet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, we have placed you at No. 3 on that picture.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In looking at Commission Exhibit No. 203, does it appear to you that 203 could have been taken from position 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 and only be 30 feet away from the Presidential car at that time--I'm not saying it wasn't--I mean, just what does it look like to you? The question I'm driving at, of course, is--I want to know--did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 203, and the time you saw the President's head hit, did you move down the street at all?

Mr. ALTGENS. May I ask you a question in return?

Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.

Mr. ALTGENS. I have no reason to doubt that by relating other testimony, that you have come up with this figure 1 as being an exact location as to when the Presidential car was struck by the bullet--the first bullet.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, no; not at all. These figures numbers 1, 2, and 3 don't indicate where the shots hit. They are for entirely different purposes. Figure No. 1 on this picture, Commission Exhibit No. 354, indicates where someone was standing--that's all that indicates.

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I will have to ask you this question, then, sir, because as you will know by looking at this picture----

Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 203?

Mr. ALTGENS. Excuse me--picture 203--there is a tree way behind the Presidential car. Now, figure 1 is placed up in front of this tree, which means that figure 1 would have been behind the car at the time the President received the first shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; referring to Exhibit No. 354.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, that has no significance because these numbers have nothing to do with the place where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. ALTGENS. I'm sorry--I just misinterpreted it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I can see why you could assume that, because as you look here at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you see 1, 2, 3, and 4 spaced down Elm Street and you did infer that that's the location the President's car was when it was hit.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which is not right because those numbers do not indicate that in any way whatsoever--they are not related to that notion at all.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; I did not move from fixed position 3. If I moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the Presidential car and I didn't want to get in their way, but if you will look at this picture----

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit No. 203.

Mr. ALTGENS. You will see by then referring to picture No. 354, that the Presidential car was well down Elm Street in front of a tree that is located in a grassy area which is just off of Elm Street and just off of the street that runs down in front of the Book Depository Building, which would indicate that the point at which he was struck, the location of the car, would be approximately 30 feet in front of the position from which I made this picture. Does that make sense?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I was about 15 feet from it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the last shot was fired?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is a plus or minus area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured on my camera.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away?

Mr. ALTGENS. But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 16 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, if you will let me say something further here about this picture----

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. ALTGENS. Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, this approximate position where I was standing and step off the distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the markings on my camera.

Mr. LIEBELER. The important thing is--it's not all that important as to how far you were away from the car at the time you took the picture--the thing that I want to establish is that you are absolutely sure that you took Exhibit No. 203 at about the time the first shot was fired and that you are quite sure also in your own mind that there were no shots fired after you saw the President hit in the head.

Mr. ALTGENS. That is correct; in both cases.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot, but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, what were you going to suggest--go ahead.

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. He did enough damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew he was firing a gun. Another shot would have truly given him away, because everybody was looking for him, but as I say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, of course, you are aware of the fact that there is an individual portrayed in Exhibit No. 203, standing right in the door of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just to the right of the No. A in the picture?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are aware that he has been thought to resemble Lee Harvey Oswald by certain people and it has been my understanding that a newspaper reporter by the name of Bonafede called you and discussed this picture with you?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information as to whether or not that man might be Lee Oswald or some other man?

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I have never seen the man before in my life and have seen no one that looks like him since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this newspaper reporter tell you that it was Oswald, or that it was somebody else--did you have any conversations with him about that?

Mr. ALTGENS. Oh, yes, sir; as a matter of fact I had two calls from him. I never met the man Bonafede, personally, but I had two calls from him and he indicated to me he was writing a story around this picture which showed this controversial figure standing in the doorway of picture No. 203. He was asking me if I knew him, if I had any information that I might be able to give him in connection with this, inasmuch as he was doing a story on it, and naturally I had no information to give him in that connection, but I don't know the man and I have never had an assignment down at the bookstore before or after the shooting so I have had no occasion to meet anyone down there in the building either before or after.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point, Mr. Altgens. Can you think of anything else you think might be significant--let me ask you this--while you were standing there alongside of Elm Street and you heard this noise that you later deduced was a shot, after that time did you have any occasion to look up at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything up there?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, as I said earlier--when I crossed the street, my vision prior to that was sort of obstructed because of the growth of trees in that area and me being down in a low spot, I couldn't see the whole building too well, but after crossing the street, I looked up to that building as well as the other buildings back on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I remember you testified about that and you said you saw those two Negroes?

Mr. ALTGENS. I saw the two Negroes but I at that time lent no significance to that until I later heard where the shots were coming from and also since that time I have heard other people say they saw them too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know which window they were in, approximately, where on the fifth floor?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, they looked to me to be on the floor below, but they were leaning out as though they were looking for something. I do remember that, but since they had nothing in their hands I didn't feel that the shot was coming from their particular area. I saw no rifle at any time although I was looking for one and I reported it to my Associated Press that the President was apparently shot by a high-powered rifle, that's the way we carried it on the wire--credited to my statement.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you saw these Negroes up there, were they in the center of the building or toward the part of the building closer to the triple underpass or toward Houston Street, or just where were they on the face here of the School Book Depository Building as it faces out on Elm Street? And Main Street?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, as I recall, they were down here close to Houston Street. They weren't directly under the window that was later described as being the area of the assassin's nest, but I think they were in a pair of windows that was maybe the next set of windows over, which was a floor below.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "over," you mean down towards the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that they were closer to the corner of the building that is near the intersection of Elm and Houston than they were towards the triple underpass end of the building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; there were also a number of people looking out of--I believe this building here [indicating on photograph].

Mr. LIEBELER. Indicating the building immediately across Houston Street from the School Book Depository?

Mr. ALTGENS. But--they were scattered and once again, I couldn't see anything over there that suggested to me that they might have a rifle, and, of course, the buildings here which are the county records and courthouse buildings--those windows--I think had nobody in them because I believe they are closed and locked. I'm not real certain of that, but I don't recall seeing anyone at those windows over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you indicate then the building that it catercornered across the street on Houston Street toward Main Street from the School Book Depository?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the intersection of Houston Street and Elm as it comes down and goes past the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At any time after you went back up here and to the intersection on Elm and Houston and after the motorcade came, did you have occasion to look down toward the railroad tracks going across the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody down there?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; as a matter of fact--let me go back to my position at Houston and Main. I was at that intersection approximately at 11:30, which meant I had close to an hour wait before the caravan was due in that area, and along about noon--of course, there were some other things that happened--there was a man who had an epileptic fit along about that area there, a young fellow approximately 19 or 20 years old, and I was standing over here at the intersection next to a sergeant's motorcycle--it was a tricycle motorcycle.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the intersection of Main and Houston that you were standing near?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and the time was approximately 12:15, I would imagine--I say 12:15 and as I relate the events you will see why I say that, because this sergeant at the motorcycle called for an ambulance and an ambulance came and picked the man up and as the ambulance was leaving through the triple overpass, underneath the triple overpass, I saw the Presidential caravan, the red lights and so on that lead the caravan, coming on to Main Street off of Harwood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Further up Main Street from where you were standing?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; clear up at the other end of town because Main Street goes uphill and that made it easy for me to spot the red lights indicating the Presidential caravan then was starting down Main Street, and along about the time the sergeant called for the ambulance, I was looking back up here at the triple overpass and I remarked to the sergeant, I said, "Look at all those people up there on the triple overpass." I would estimate about a dozen were up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the railroad tracks immediately over Elm--immediately over the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and I said, "I wonder what the heck all those people are doing up there when they wouldn't let me up there to make pictures?" And he said, "Well, I suppose they are railroad people." I said, "Well, if they are permitted up there, it seems like they would let me up there just to make a picture." He said, "Well, you know we've got our orders too." So, I just dropped it at that time, but there were at that time--now, this was prior to the Presidential arrival in the Main-Houston Street area that I noticed these people up here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Up on the triple underpass?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; I keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony down here. After the Presidential caravan had proceeded down Elm Street, this was approximately 12:25, then, after the President was shot--the car passed in front of me--I stepped into the curb area and made a picture of the Secret Service man going to the assistance of Mrs. Kennedy. I made a picture at that time which shows part of the triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice whether there were still people on it at that time?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; there were people up on it and I looked in that direction, but not for a firearm--I didn't really expect any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why was that?

Mr. ALTGENS. Because as I said before--the way the bullet impact hit the President, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in order to cause him to move forward a little bit and I didn't expect to find anything up in that area, so that is why I was concentrating my observation back in this part, back in the Main--excuse me--back in the Houston-Elm intersection area to see if I could find the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see anybody standing on the overpass with a firearm of any kind?

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Altgens, unless you can think of something else that you think would be significant that I haven't thought to ask you about, I think we can terminate the deposition.

Mr. ALTGENS. No, sir; I can't think of anything--it seems like we have covered it pretty well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. ALTGENS. You are welcome, sir--I was glad to do it and I hope that whatever I've had to say will be of some help.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think it will.

Mr. ALTGENS. Let me tell you this off the record, because it doesn't matter, but you notice Mr. Switzer, the FBI agent that came out--he and his partner--and talked with me, he brought up this Bonafede to me--the name and then he asked me if I knew somebody else, a woman columnist in a Chicago newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?

Mr. ALTGENS. And then showed me a clipping where she too had referred to me in the taking of a picture and I also received a telephone call from a John Gold who is, I guess, a correspondent connected with the London Daily News. I got a call from him on the Thursday night about 11 or 11:30 at night, asking me what that story was all about because----

Mr. LIEBELER. The Magy Daley story or the Bonafede story?

Mr. ALTGENS. No; this was the Bonafede story, because they had put it on television--as a teaser to sell publications and the public on the upcoming Sunday--the Sunday publication.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the New York Tribune.

Mr. ALTGENS. And gee, I didn't know what to tell the guy because I didn't know Bonafede had written, but Bonafede talked with me. I asked him and I said, "Are you going to quote me on anything I say?" And, he says, "Well, if I do quote you, I'll call you back and ask you for your permission," and I said, Swell.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did quote you and he didn't call you back?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I got a copy of the thing--I didn't gather from the article he was quoting me on anything in particular other than to say that I was a witness and I hadn't been called to testify before the Commission or questioned by the FBI or the Secret Service, but I don't think that he really tied any information to me in the course of writing the story, but it was real strange the way the thing unfolded. I had tried previously to get my bureau chief to give me permission to notify the Warren Commission or someone to let them know I had been in the area, not that my testimony would be of much value, but still if it could be of just a little bit of help I wanted to do what I thought was right, and my boss never got permission for me to do that, and that's why I never did step forward, because I had no authority. Really, I didn't feel that I could act on my own. I wanted to wait until someone gave me authority to do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your testimony has been helpful to the extent that it helps to establish the timing of the shots and I'm glad you gave it to us.

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I wish I had been able to give this information to you the next day when it was fresh on my mind because 6 months or so later, sometimes the facts might be just a little bit off and I hate to see it that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much for coming.

TESTIMONY OF HARRY D. HOLMES

The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 2 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLMES. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you have previously been examined by one of the attorneys on the staff, and I assume they advised you of the basis on which we are conducting the examination and the rights that you have in the situation, so I won't bother to go through that again.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. HOLMES. Harry D. Holmes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the chief postal inspector?

Mr. HOLMES. No; it is just postal inspector.

Mr. LIEBELER. Stationed with the post office here in Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I just have a few questions that I wanted to ask you that have come up since we took your testimony the last time. One of the things I would like to know about, if you have any information on it, is how long it ordinarily takes a parcel post shipment to come to Dallas from Chicago.

Mr. HOLMES. It would depend on the time of day it was mailed, and whether it was mailed just prior to the next most expeditious dispatch. But I would say certainly not over, well, it would be in Dallas the next day. But whether it would get to a box--that's right, it would be available at his box--should be the next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, this question relates specifically to the shipment of the rifle.

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Shipped from Chicago and addressed to Mr. Hidell at Post Office Box 2915 here in Dallas, and you say that it generally would have been available at the post office here in Dallas the day following its delivery to the post office in Chicago?

Mr. HOLMES. I have no idea when it was mailed there, but it should have been available here the next day. If it were to be delivered to a street address, it would be the second day, because it would not make morning delivery. But to a post office box, he should have. Of course, he had told me he didn't come to that box too regularly, so there is no assurance of when it was picked up.

Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as the possibility is concerned, it would have been available here at the post office box the following morning from Chicago?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. After it has been received here in Dallas, as I understand the procedure, a notice would be put in the post office box indicating that a package was being held there in the post office; is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. There is a regular card, when the package is too large to go in the box, or if it is c.o.d., or insured, or registered. However, this was an ordinary parcel. It was not insured or c.o.d. There would be a card for him put in the box, and he would have to pick it up at a window.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about as far as Los Angeles is concerned, from Los Angeles to Dallas? How long would it take a parcel post to reach Dallas from Los Angeles?

Mr. HOLMES. At least 2 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it possibly be longer than 2 days?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much longer, do you think? How about on the average, do you have any idea?

Mr. HOLMES. No; it depends on the time of mailing. It is 2 days' train run from Los Angeles here, and if it happens to catch an early dispatch, it would be in here the morning of the third day.

Mr. LIEBELER. From Chicago it is only a 1-day train run, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be here, if it had an early dispatch, on the morning of the following day?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is that an application for a post office box comes in three separate parts. Do you have----

(Mr. Holmes hands paper to attorney.)

Mr. LIEBELER. You have, in fact, handed me a sample of such an application.

Mr. HOLMES. I thought you might want one, so I brought one along.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was very good, and we will mark this as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A on your deposition of July 23, 1964. I have put my initials on the corner after I have marked it. Would you initial it, too, for the purpose of identification?

(Mr. Holmes initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the ordinary procedure that is followed when a box is rented and this form is used?

Mr. HOLMES. The form is completed, usually by the applicant, and it must be signed by the applicant, even if an employee does complete it. This portion of the--I don't know how you want to designate it.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will number them portions 1, 2, and 3.

Mr. HOLMES. All right, part 1 of this application is simply the instructions on a combination box, and instructions to the patron is torn off, and he keeps it or they throw it away. Portions 2 and 3 are completed, too. 2 gives the applicant's name, the name of his corporation or firm he represents, if applicable, the kind of business, the business address, the home address, and the place for his signature and the date. On the third portion is a box for him to indicate whether he wants all mail in the box, or just whether he wants some other disposition and so on, and a place for name of person entitled to receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself, and he fills in that. These two portions then remain together in the file of the post office where he made application.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is portions 2 and 3?

Mr. HOLMES. Until he relinquishes the box. They pull this out and endorse it so the box has been closed, and the date and they tear off 3 and throw it away. It has no more purpose. That is what happened on box 2915.

Mr. LIEBELER. They have thrown part 3 away?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; as it so happens, even though they closed the box in New Orleans, they still had part 3 and it showed that the mail for Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell was good in the box. They hadn't complied with regulations. They still had it there.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a lucky thing.

Mr. HOLMES. We wish they had here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now is this regulation that says section 3 should be torn off and thrown away, is that a general regulation of the Post Office Department?

Mr. HOLMES. It is in the Post Office Manual Instructions to employees; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no way, as I understand it, to tell from the records maintained, as far as you know anyway, who was authorized to receive mail at Post Office Box 2915 that Oswald had while he was here in Dallas before he went to New Orleans in April of 1963; is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Other than Oswald himself and his name on the application.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right.

Mr. HOLMES. Now he did tell me in personal interrogation that no one was permitted to get mail in that box but him.

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that same thing about the box in New Orleans, too, didn't he?

Mr. HOLMES. He did at first, and then----

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you showed him portion three of the application and then he changed his story?

Mr. HOLMES. I said how about Marina Oswald, and he said, well, she was my wife. What is wrong with that? And I said how about A. J. Hidell, and he said I don't know anything about that. And I said look here. And he said, well, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now supposing that Oswald had not in fact authorized A. J. Hidell to receive mail here in the Dallas box and that a package came addressed to the name of Hidell, which, in fact, one did at Post Office Box 2915, what procedure would be followed when that package came in?

Mr. HOLMES. They would put the notice in the box.

Mr. LIEBELER. Regardless of whose name was associated with the box?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the general practice. The theory being, I have a box. I have a brother come to visit me. My brother would have my same name--well, a cousin. You can get mail in there. They are not too strict. You don't have to file that third portion to get service for other people there. I imagine they might have questioned him a little bit when they handed it out to him, but I don't know. It depends on how good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the package would have come in addressed to Hidell at Post Office Box 2915, and a notice would have been put in the post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail from it?

Mr. HOLMES. Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory--I am surmising now, because nobody knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, "I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ordinarily, they won't even request any identification because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was entitled to it?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is very possible that that in fact is what happened in this case?

Mr. HOLMES. That is in theory. I would assume that is what happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the other hand, it is also possible that Oswald had actually authorized Hidell to receive mail through the box?

Mr. HOLMES. Could have been. And on the other hand, he had this identification card of Hidell's in his billfold, which he could have produced and showed the window clerk. Either way, he got it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I believe I am correct in my understanding that when Mr. Belin took your testimony previously, that you did mark as exhibits the various forms that Oswald had filled out here in the Post Office Department in Dallas; isn't that right?

Mr. HOLMES. You mean the box rent application?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. HOLMES. I have long since given them to the FBI. However, I endorsed them at the time I gave them to the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. I can't remember.

Mr. HOLMES. I will show you a photocopy maybe.

Mr. LIEBELER. The basic thrust of my question is that you have given the originals of the documents to the FBI?

Mr. HOLMES. I have the receipts, except for Ruby's box, which nobody ever asked me for, and I still have them. That is Ruby's box at the Terminal Annex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is not a part of the record so far. We should mark it as a part of the record now. Are you required to keep this in your records?

Mr. HOLMES. If you will give me a receipt for it. I have a photocopy.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is quite as legible, the photocopy, so why don't I just mark the photocopy and you keep the original?

Mr. HOLMES. Okay.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed the photocopy, and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification, and we will mark that as Holmes Exhibit No. 2-A on your deposition of July 23, 1064, a photocopy of a post office box application in the name of Jack Ruby, dated November 1, 1963. Post Office Box No. 5475, and as I understand it, this was an application that was made at the Terminal Annex here in Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any way in which we can tell from just looking at it, or that is something you know from having gotten the copy from the Terminal Annex?

Mr. HOLMES. The box number categories are set out for each station that comes within that bracket. The applications don't tell you what post office it is from. It might be from San Antonio. But I don't know why. What are your initials and name?

Mr. LIEBELER. W. J. L., Wesley J. Liebeler.

Mr. HOLMES. How do you spell your last name?

Mr. LIEBELER (spelling). L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r.

Mr. HOLMES. Thank you [handing another card to Mr. Liebeler]. I will explain it to you, and you might want to ask me for the record what it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; you have handed me a postcard, Post Office Department Form 3546, Notice to Change Forwarding Order.

Mr. HOLMES. That is different from our 3575 in that this is simply a forwarding order. This is to change a forwarding order. To interpret it, Lee Oswald, on October 11, 1963, in New Orleans, gave his box 2915 in Dallas as the last address. He had given a forwarding order on this box to this box 30061 in New Orleans on May 14, 1963. Now then, he is again forwarding from this box. Not again, but it is a second forwarding.

Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that instructions had been given to forward from box 2915 here in Dallas?

Mr. HOLMES. Direct without going through----

Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that all together, he had first issued instructions that mail should be forwarded from box 2915 in Dallas to box 30061 in New Orleans, and this would now indicate that mail was to be forwarded to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex., and that is dated October 11, 1963. Now, there are several postmarks appearing on this form. There is one Dallas postmark of October 16 on both sides, and there is also a postmark in New Orleans, which is difficult to read, but it is sometime in October. Now you suggested perhaps October 11, 1963. What do you interpret happened with regard to this notice, Post Office Department Form 3546? Can you tell from looking at it where, in the ordinary course of events, he would have first prepared this form?

Mr. HOLMES. That would have been prepared in New Orleans and dropped in the mailbox. He would have prepared that at a station, because they have filled the front in and crossed it out. In fact, they hand these out at the stations. He has gone into the station probably where he had this box. In the normal course of the patron's activities he would have gone into that station where that box is and said, "I want my mail forwarded." All right, fill this out.

It looks like they might have filled it out for him. It doesn't look too much like his writing. But they would have filled this out to show that mail from this box should not be sent to New Orleans, but sent to Irving, so the post office would send that up to Dallas where this box is at the main office, and they would have that on file here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Box 2915, you mean? That address here?

Mr. HOLMES. Here is a photocopy of box 2915 application, and it will show it was closed on May 14, 1963, which is this red figure up here. So when they got that in here in Dallas, they would have put this red mark on there for some reason to show when the box was closed, and then they would keep this in their file as instructions until they got some other instructions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it possible that this form which, well, do you have a photostatic of this form we have been talking about?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me mark this original one for the record then, if I may.

Mr. HOLMES. That is all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed this Post Office Department Form 3546, which has been marked "Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A on deposition of July 23, 1964," and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification.

(Mr. Holmes initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you some more questions about Holmes Exhibit No. 3, which is postmarked, as we have indicated, October 16, in Dallas, and also bears a postmark in New Orleans which I think is October 11.

Mr. HOLMES. My best educated guess is the 11th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me come bluntly to the point. My problem is this. Oswald wasn't in New Orleans on October 11. He was in Dallas.

Mr. HOLMES. Now, he could have filled that out here. It could have been mailed to New Orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. He could have mailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed it. But they would have had to enclose it in an envelope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in Dallas, Tex., and just as sure as anything it has a New Orleans postmark on it.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; prior to the Dallas one, if we read the New Orleans one correctly.

Mr. LIEBELER. The New Orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an October postmark.

Mr. HOLMES. That is the reason I wanted you to read the memo, because the hours are down there and are different from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the New Orleans Post Office inspector, or an inspector in the office of New Orleans, has advised you that Oswald filled out a form 3575?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the regular forwarding order.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he did that on September 24; is that correct? Or September 25?

Mr. HOLMES. September 24.

Mr. LIEBELER. September 24, 1963, and his box down there was closed on September 26, presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to them under postmark of September 24, 1963. Now has the Post Office Department in New Orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you can tell, concerning this Post Office Department Form 3546, which we have marked Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A?

Mr. HOLMES. No; other than their postmark on there. There is no endorsement there. But you see, Lafayette Station is in New Orleans, and it looks like that was completed by the person at Lafayette Station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Inasmuch as that is exactly what it says.

Mr. HOLMES. If that were completed in some other post office, they wouldn't know that box was in Lafayette Station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence that Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it?

Mr. HOLMES. No; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting.

Mr. HOLMES. That is my opinion, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office filled this form out?

Mr. HOLMES. They could have done it over a telephone instruction, long-distance telephone call.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they could have done that from the records they had in their possession, because he already had filled out a Post Office Department 3575 instructing to forward mail from Post Office Box 30061 to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, which they had received, of course, on September 24?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, we will add this to the pile.

Mr. HOLMES. It is an original card.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show Mr. Holmes has delivered to us the original card which has been marked as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A.

I don't think I have any other questions. I have cleared up the basic problems we had. Of course, you managed to raise a few more, and I appreciate that. Thank you very much. As I understand it at this point, Mr. Holmes, you have given to us or to the FBI, all of the papers that you found so far in your files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; you have every original document or item that I have come in contact with in this business.

Mr. LIEBELER. Between us and the FBI?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now it may be as you suggested----

Mr. HOLMES. Except Ruby's.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have given us a copy?

Mr. HOLMES. I have given you a good clear photocopy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. If you do come across any other papers in your files----

Mr. HOLMES. I will get in touch with Martha Jo [Stroud, assistant U.S. attorney in Dallas, Tex.].

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; let us know. Thank you a lot again.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Frazier. I believe you have already appeared before the Commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his activities; is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you two or three questions that were not asked you when you appeared before the Commission. Your name is Buell Wesley Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the same Buell Wesley Frazier, as I understand, who has previously testified before the Commission about Lee Harvey Oswald and about how Oswald rode back and forth with you from Irving to Dallas; isn't that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think he came with you to work on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified in Washington that on that particular morning you saw Oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into the Texas School Book Depository Building and that also you saw that package in the car; isn't that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you described that package and you told us about what you saw in detail at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald with the package similar to the one you saw on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald carry a package from Irving into the Texas School Book Depository Building that looked anything like the package he had on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him with a package that looked like that package any other time or at any other place?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH

The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3-1/2 years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told.

Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office?

Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?

Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally?

Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings?

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?

Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?

Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when I arrived at the scene.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Three of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?

Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?

Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?

Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which the shots were fired?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?

Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?

Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows?

Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.

Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.

Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the--let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you heard the shots?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?

Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.

Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?

Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?

Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait--let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?

Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.

Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. I don't remember; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?

Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?

Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and checking the cars.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not?

Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. It is back off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.

Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. They merge.

Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?

Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think the Commission should know.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WELCOME EUGENE BARNETT

The testimony of Welcome Eugene Barnett was taken at 3:50 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNETT. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney for the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission governing the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know you did not get the 3 days' notice because of schedule difficulties that we had, and you were just advised of it this morning, I believe. I assume, however, that since you are here, that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without having an attorney.

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. BARNETT. Welcome Eugene Barnett.

Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born?

Mr. BARNETT. July 12, 1932, New Hope, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are apparently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department, isn't that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Dallas police?

Mr. BARNETT. Eight and a half years.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were assigned to the area of Elm and Houston Streets on November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you received instructions to go there, when you received them, what you were told, and what happened? Would you tell us what happened on that day, in other words?

Mr. BARNETT. We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. Then when the President came by, I heard three shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back, you got to the area around 10 o'clock; is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, there were three of us assigned to that one corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other officers?

Mr. BARNETT. Who were the other officers?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BARNETT. J. D. Smith, and another officer named Smith. I don't know his initials. E. L., I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you divide your duties among yourselves when you got there, or had you been specifically instructed as to what each one was supposed to do?

Mr. BARNETT. We divided our duties.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you do that?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view--you can sit down--Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?

Mr. BARNETT. I was right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 1?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty much into Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. To stop the traffic that was coming?

Mr. BARNETT. South on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. South on Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; Elm Street is so wide, and I helped these officers here stop this traffic here.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have written the No. 4 on here before and it is kind of hard to read. You also helped to stop the traffic that was coming down here in the area of No. 4, which would have been the traffic on Elm Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was standing right about this position right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right about No. 8?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically, were you given any instructions when you left that morning when you made detail, to observe and scan the windows of the buildings around that area?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; we weren't, but that is just one thing you always do. It is understood that you have the buildings to watch.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there were no specific instructions given to any of the officers, so far as you know, when they left that morning, about watching the windows in the area?

Mr. BARNETT. I don't see any use in being instructed on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, regardless of that fact----

Mr. BARNETT. There was no instructions; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now from where you were standing at position 1 prior to the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on the entire south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building; were you not?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at those windows?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you look up at those windows before the motorcade came? Can you tell us with what frequency?

Mr. BARNETT. I looked up twice. Maybe once at 11, probably a few minutes after 11--probably a few minutes after 11. It was raining part of the morning, and when I found out that the people in the building were going to come outside and watch the President, I looked up at the building, and then I looked at all the buildings, and there were no windows that I noticed open then. But after a few minutes before the President came by, I didn't look any more. I started watching the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. So just before the motorcade approached, you moved over and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd, so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade came?

Mr. BARNETT. I couldn't. I was too busy. [Referring to picture.] I got this in the wrong place. It needs to be about this position right here, instead of here. I was right here. I got it too far, but I could see the President's car from the position I was, so I had to be right here [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. You are satisfied you were further out into the intersection?

Mr. BARNETT. Right there [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking]. In the general vicinity of No. 9?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BARNETT. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any echo in the area from where you were standing?

Mr. BARNETT. What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides the shots?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BARNETT. No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there would be nothing else until the next shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of the shots hit the President?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, when the first shot--I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was ducking then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9, you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks?

Mr. BARNETT. One or two officers. Two officers, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BARNETT. That is all I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to where they came from?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think about them?

Mr. BARNETT. When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from?

Mr. BARNETT. Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; because I was standing too close, was the reason. And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building. To me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?

Mr. BARNETT. I ran to the back of the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ran down Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?

Mr. BARNETT. It is around the corner from Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go in the building?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.

I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building?

Mr. BARNETT. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?

Mr. BARNETT. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?

Mr. BARNETT. Not a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you went around behind the building?

Mr. BARNETT. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going west down that little street there in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on our Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. BARNETT. When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming back toward me, started back toward me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, J. D. Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't actually go into the building at the time?

Mr. BARNETT. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?

Mr. BARNETT. It was around 2-1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2-1/2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; until they were authorized.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and out?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let them out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it was possible that people could have left the building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and Officer Smith stationed yourselves there?

Mr. BARNETT. When I went to the door to get the name of the building, there were people going in and out then.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was as quickly as 2-1/2 minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? Do you think it was that quick?

Mr. BARNETT. I believe it was 2-1/2 minutes probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 more seconds before I got to the front there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So your recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?

Mr. BARNETT. Three minutes at the most.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else?

Mr. BARNETT. Sergeant Howard.

Mr. LIEBELER. You remained there at the door for how long?

Mr. BARNETT. Until 3 o'clock. Close to 11:30 to 3--close to 12:30 to 3.

Mr. LIEBELER. At which time you were relieved from duty?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; from that position I had to go back to my regular assignment at Commerce and Akard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, on television?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all?

Mr. BARNETT. None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that intersection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to any other officer in the department that remembers seeing him in the area at all?

Mr. BARNETT. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, I heard other officers that went up in the building and talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Officer Baker was one?

Mr. BARNETT. I haven't talked to the officer.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were pretty sure fairly quickly that the shots had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was no notion in your mind that they could have come from these railroad tracks down here around the triple underpass?

Mr. BARNETT. To me, it is impossible.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the sound of the shots?

Mr. BARNETT. The sounds were high, and if it was down here, it wouldn't echo. It would be a low sound. For a shot to echo, it has to be high up.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean to hang?

Mr. BARNETT. To hang like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now there were altogether three policemen assigned to the corner of Elm and Houston; is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other men assigned down the length of Elm Street here, that you know?

Mr. BARNETT. Not that I know of. There were no men stationed permanently there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The responsibility of control in that area would have been the job of the motorcycle riders and the Secret Service men?

Mr. BARNETT. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any general orders that are issued to police officers in regard to the scanning of windows when motorcades go by and that sort of thing?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, in our training, we are told to scan windows, among lots of things. Look on top of buildings, windows, cars, but, of course, these things you are taught from the beginning. You don't have to be reminded of it every day. That is what you are taught to do, and it would take too long to remind us of everything they are supposed to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Every time you went out on an assignment?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; it would be impossible. That is why you are trained for a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you saw or heard on that day that you haven't told us about now, that you think we would be interested in?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I believe that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, officer, for coming in. We appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. BARNETT. You are welcome.

TESTIMONY OF EDDY RAYMOND WALTHERS

The testimony of Eddy Raymond Walthers was taken at 8:16 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 361 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler, [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r, and I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get the 3 days' notice of your hearing, but that can be waived by the witness and I assume that since you are here you are prepared to proceed and that we may proceed without your attorney being present?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WALTHERS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. WALTHERS. Eddy Raymond Walthers.

Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born?

Mr. WALTHERS. I was born here in Dallas County in 1928 on July 17.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. WALTHERS. I live at 2527 Boyd Street in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently a deputy sheriff in Dallas County, Tex.?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been a deputy sheriff?

Mr. WALTHERS. About 9 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were in or about the area of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to be there at that time?

Mr. WALTHERS. I was standing in front of the sheriff's office on Main Street and close to Houston with Mrs. Decker watching the parade.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there is a building right there at the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street, what has been referred to as the county building; is that right?

Mr. WALTHERS. I was standing right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were standing over on Main Street just east of the intersection of Main Street and Houston; is that correct?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; just between the two buildings.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you standing there when the motorcade came down?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you stood there and watched the motorcade go by?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you acting in any official capacity at that time?

Mr. WALTHERS. I was a deputy sheriff--I was on duty and had stopped there with Mrs. Decker to watch the parade go by.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any specific assignment in connection with the motorcade or the President or anything like that?

Mr. WALTHERS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street and made a wide turn into Houston Street and went back down Elm Street; isn't that right?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the motorcade turned onto Houston Street, what did you do?

Mr. WALTHERS. After it turned onto Houston and most of the motorcade went by, I turned to talk to Mrs. Decker and asked her if she was ready to go back inside and I proceeded to help her back up the steps and then we heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were still standing over on Main Street around the corner from Houston Street when you heard the shots?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually didn't see any of the shots take effect or anything like that?

Mr. WALTHERS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. WALTHERS. I remember three shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you clear about that?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you heard the shots?

Mr. WALTHERS. Well, I was facing her and I told her that sounded like a rifle and I ran across here [indicating] and there is a wall along in here and I hopped over it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you ran across Houston Street and jumped over the wall and back into Dealey Plaza there?

Mr. WALTHERS. People were laying down on this grass--women and men were laying on top of their children on the grass.

Mr. LIEBELER. On either side of Main Street?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and then someone, I don't know, I say someone--a lot of people was sitting there--but it must have been behind that fence--there's a fence right along here----

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to the area immediately behind the No. 7 that appears on Commission Exhibit No. 354--there is a concrete structure there of some sort.

Mr. WALTHERS. It don't show on this, but since this picture was made, there's a fence--it may be there--it's a solid board fence along here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Running along behind the concrete structure that faces Elm Street and is No. 7 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. WALTHERS. And at that time I heard the shots as well as everybody else, but as we got over this fence, and a lot of officers and people were just rummaging through the train yards back in this parking area.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the parking area down there? West of the Texas School Book Depository Building between the Texas School Book Depository and the railroad tracks?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the discussion came up among several of the officers, Were there any shots fired? And I said, "Well, they sounded like rifle shots to me." At the time no one knew--in our crowd they were sure the shots had been fired though because of the reports--we heard the noise, and I left then and went back up here and came back onto the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Up on Elm Street?

Mr. WALTHERS. And went over on this grassy area right in here [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Between Elm Street and Main Street?

Mr. WALTHERS. Between Elm and Main and starting to looking at the grass to see if some shots had been fired and some of them might have chugged into this turf here and it would give an indication if some had really been, if they were really shots and not just blanks or something, and a man, and I couldn't tell you his name if my life depended on it--he had a car parked right here in Main Street--in the Main Street lane headed east, just under this underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down at the point marked No. 9 of the exhibit we are talking about; is that right?

Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--in this lane here and his car was just partially sticking out parked there and he came up to me and asked me, he said, "Are you looking to see where some bullets may have struck?" And I said, "Yes." He says, "I was standing over by the bank here, right there where my car is parked when those shots happened," and he said, "I don't know where they came from, or if they were shots, but something struck me on the face," and he said, "It didn't make any scratch or cut and it just was a sting," and so I had him show me right where he was standing and I started to search in that immediate area and found a place on the curb there in the Main Street lane there close to the underpass where a projectile had struck that curb.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember that man's name if I told you or if I reminded you of it?

Mr. WALTHERS. I'm sorry--I don't know if I would remember it or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a man by the name of Jim Tague [spelling], T-a-g-u-e, who works as an automobile salesman.

Mr. WALTHERS. I remember he had a gray automobile--I remember that very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think it must have been Mr. Tague because he was in here this afternoon and he told me his car was parked right there at No. 9 and that's when I put the mark on the exhibit and he walked up there and talked to a deputy sheriff and he looked at the curb.

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; this was pure ignorance on my part in not getting his name--I don't know--but I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is pretty clear it was Mr. Tague, because his testimony he gave today jibed with yours and it couldn't have been anybody else and he had a cut and some blood on his face.

Mr. WALTHERS. Well, at the time I wasn't interested in whether he was cut or what, I just said, "Where were you standing?" In an effort to prove there was some shots fired, and after seeing the way it struck the curb at an angle--which it came down on the curb--it was almost obvious that it either came from this building or this building [indicating] the angle it struck the curb at.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say this building or this building you are talking about the School Book Depository Building or the building immediately east thereof, across Houston Street?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I ran right then back up along in here and that would be right at the corner of Elm and Houston, where I ran into one of our deputies, Allan Sweatt, and told him--everybody still at this time was just--I don't know what you would call it--just running around in circles you might say, and I told him, I said, "A bullet struck that curb. It's fresh--you can see a fresh ricochet where it had struck," and I said, "From the looks of it, it's probably going to be in this School Book Building," and immediately then everybody started surrounding the School Book Building and then I got off and come up the street here that runs in front of the School Book Depository Building and started gathering up a bunch of witnesses and started taking them over and put them in our office so we could get some statements before they got all jumbled up together with their stories.

I continued to take witnesses across the street here and locked them up and got our secretaries to start taking depositions from them before they had a chance to get their stories messed up, and I don't remember who it was now that came--as I was coming out the back door of the jail, out of the office building here and said an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff and there wasn't anybody over there, everybody was down here, and I got a couple of our civil deputies and put them in a car and went to Oak Cliff, and left all this area where the shooting was--where the shooting had taken place--and just at the time I reached Zangs and Jefferson in Oak Cliff, I had a little transistor radio in my car, and that's the first time I knew the President was actually shot. They announced the fact that he was actually dead on the Citizens radio and immediately after that we got a call that a suspect that was supposed to have shot Officer Tippit was in the library building on Marsalis and Jefferson, and everybody that had made it to Oak Cliff then went to that library and we bailed out and surrounded it and found out that it was no good. It was not the suspect, and then we got back in the car and got the call to go to the Texas Theatre, that the suspect was in the balcony of the Texas Theatre on Jefferson, and I parked there just east of the entrance and out in the traffic lane, and I had a sawed off shotgun that I took with me inside the building and went up the steps to the landing there and got hold of the manager and asked him to turn on the house lights, and he said, "I'll go get some flashlights." I said, "No, you can turn on the house lights, we're looking for a man," and I went on into the balcony and there wasn't anybody in the balcony. It was vacant. I ran to the rail then and looked downstairs and the house lights had just came on and it wasn't too bright, even with them on, and we seen some confusion down in the center section close to the back of the center section of the seats and I hollered to another bunch of officers that were still pouring in the balcony, "He must be downstairs," or, "He is downstairs," or something to that effect and I ran back down the steps then and I laid my shotgun down there across a couple of seats there and went into the aisle where a scuffle was taking place and seen two hands wrapped around a pistol. Like I say, it was dark even above the seats and down between the seats it was pretty much of a mess to tell what was really happening.

Mr. LIEBELER. This man that had both hands up was down there between the seats?

Mr. WALTHERS. Well, there were two different hands wrapped around the gun holding onto it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Two different people fighting for it?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and there were a lot of officers jumping over the seats coming back to where it was happening, and Mr. B. K. Carroll that works up at the city was coming right in on the same row I was in from the opposite side facing me and I grabbed ahold of the hands that had the gun and about that time two or three other officers piled into the scuffle there in between the seats and I was real sure it was Carroll that got the pistol out of his hands, or pulled it away from the hands and then some uniformed officers just gathered this boy that turned out to be Oswald up in a bunch, you might say, and I picked my shotgun up and Mr. McDonald, I remember seeing him pick his hat up off of the floor and standing over at the edge of everything and dusting his hat off when we got ready to come out with him, and I got the shotgun, and a lot of people had congregated out in front of the show and there's kind of an island there that goes all the way out into the street and people were all over it and I had gotten the shotgun and turned it sideways like a battering ram to get through and they were all raising hell and cussing and saying what they wanted to do, "Let us have him," and they wadded him up in the car and left with him, and then I got in my car and somewhere in the shuffle I lost the two officers I had with me--I don't remember how they got back to the station, but I remember leaving them--I couldn't find them, so I went on back to the station then and Mr. Decker gave me an address on a little piece of paper--I thought I could remember the address in Irving where this Oswald had been staying with Mrs. Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 2515 West Fifth?

Mr. WALTHERS. I believe it was--5th or 15th.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe it was Fifth.

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and I took our officer, Harry Weatherford, and we met Officer Adamcik that works for the city and Officer Rose and another one of their officers, but I don't recall his name right now--at this address in Irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be Mrs. Paine--just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you," and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and started asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or Mrs. Oswald, or Marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that Oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you account for the fact that Mrs. Paine said, "Come on in, we've been expecting you?"

Mr. WALTHERS. I don't know--to this day, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you sure that's what she said?

Mr. WALTHERS. I know that's what she said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Paine said that?

Mr. WALTHERS. Yes, sir; she said, "Come on in, we have been expecting you."

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else there that heard her say that?

Mr. WALTHERS. I imagine all the officers on the porch did. I know Rose was trying to show her his credentials and she just pushed the screen open and said, Come on in. Now, after we got inside and we were making a search of the house with their permission, they had no objection whatsoever. Mrs. Oswald couldn't speak much English and Mr. Rose was doing most of the questioning, the city officer. We were just--not actually knowing what we were looking for, just searching, and we went into the garage there and found this--I believe it was one of these things like soap comes in, a big pasteboard barrel and it had a lot of these little leaflets in it, "Freedom for Cuba" and they were gold color with black printing on them, and we found those and we also found a gray blanket with some red trim on it that had a string tied at one end that you could see the imprint of a gun, I mean where it had been wrapped in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You could really see the imprint of the gun?

Mr. WALTHERS. You could see where it had been--it wasn't completely untied--one end had been untied and the other end had been left tied, that would be around the barrel and you could see where the gun had rested on the inside of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean by that, you could tell that from the way the thing had been tied?

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