Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) (part 3 of 6)

Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15) (part 3 of 6)

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What I want to ask you is what you did at that time. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went to school, and what your training is?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was born in Niles, Mich., and attended several schools and have been in Dallas and I have been in the Air Force and came to Dallas in 1950, and have been in the Police Department since February 8, 1954, and right now I am a detective in the Crime Scene Service Section of the ID Bureau of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. What sort of training did you have for the crime lab work that you are doing?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's just on-the-job training--you go out with old officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and fingerprints.

Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in identification fingerprints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we are. We just compare them.

Mr. BALL. What is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for the print. We used on this special case up there on those boxes and things, we have a special powder that we used on that.

Mr. BALL. Then you take a picture of the print--a photograph?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. We just lift the print and then tape it to preserve it.

Mr. BALL. By "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising it up; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By means of your dusting powder?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. By a chemical, yes. This certain print that was up there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. That's what it's used for.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty that day?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 a.m.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What are your hours--7 to 3?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. 7 to 3.

Mr. BALL. Did you get a call to go down to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go down there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I believe we got the call about 1:05--we was down there about 1:15.

Mr. BALL. And whom did you go with?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Lieutenant Day and I answered the call.

Mr. BALL. What equipment did you take with you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. We have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff--a station wagon.

Mr. BALL. Each one of you had a camera, did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; we just had one camera.

Mr. BALL. What kind of camera was it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's a Graflex, a 4 by 5 Speed Graflex.

Mr. BALL. Have you had some experience in operating a camera?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How much?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on this certain camera?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. About 2 months.

Mr. BALL. But you have had photography in your crime lab work?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. For how long?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Was about 2 months.

Mr. BALL. How long have you done photography altogether?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. In my lifetime?

Mr. BALL. No, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of years?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. 2 months. I went to the crime lab in October, the 1st of October.

Mr. BALL. You did--had you done any photography before that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just home photography.

Mr. BALL. And the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you mentioned?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what else?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just anything we had in the truck. We have the truck complete.

Mr. BALL. You have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for different substances?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many different kinds of powder do you have?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we purchased this new powder--it's a magnetic powder. It's a new type of powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better than your regular dusting powder. It's more accurate in lifting a print than anything I have ever seen. It's a new type powder--a magnetic powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on different types surfaces.

Mr. BALL. By "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Raising the print up, raising the invisible print which is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that it is pressed on. It takes 7 pounds of pressure to leave a latent fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until you put your powder on there and then it raises it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you went to the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you go directly to some particular floor?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We went to the entrance and they said it was on the sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as soon as you arrived there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they hadn't found anything when we got there.

Mr. BALL. After you were there a little while, did somebody find something?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of the building--they found three empty hulls and we went over there and took photographs of that.

Mr. BALL. Do you have that photograph with you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Could I see it, please?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Now, I took two of the photographs and Lieutenant Day took two. We took double shots on each one. These are the ones I took myself--these pictures. There's the two pictures that I took. This one was right before anything was moved. There is a hull here, a hull here, and a hull over here.

Mr. BALL. Now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you took, we will mark it as Exhibit "A" in your deposition.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull--you can just barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed, the exposure of the printing left this out, but I have one--I didn't know this was like that, but I have another one that shows this hull this way.

You see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on everything and messing everything up. This is exact before anything was ever moved or picked up.

There are just two different views there. You probably got one or two recopies. We printed a bunch of them.

Mr. BALL. Is this the same picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the same picture, only you don't have it there either.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't show it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box.

Mr. BALL. We have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is Exhibit A, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "Exhibit B."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit B," for identification.)

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The first pictures was shots on the southeast facing west, and this one here is facing east.

Mr. BALL. In other words, Exhibit A was filmed from the east, with the camera facing west?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Exhibit B is what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Facing east.

Mr. BALL. You are facing east?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have a jacket we made up that has all of those pictures numbered in there, and I believe he made an explanation on every one of those.

Mr. BALL. We will identify your Exhibit A as your No. 20 and your Exhibit B as your No. 19. Now, what other pictures did you take?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Of the rifle?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and I loaded everything up and carried it over there.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; on these, Lieutenant Day also took pictures of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. We took two shots apiece.

Mr. BALL. Let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was located?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I know it's mine because my knees are in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the gun?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, I don't.

Mr. BALL. You have handed me a picture now that I will have marked as "Exhibit C" and it is your No. 22.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit C," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is a picture taken by you of the location of the gun--that was before anyone moved it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you have another shot of that other picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, we took two from the same location when we was up on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it up. Actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on different exposures.

Mr. BALL. You took some other pictures, didn't you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes on the ledge of this window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you take some pictures showing those boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that before any of them were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That picture right there is the one that shows them, and the other pictures show them before they were moved.

Mr. BALL. You mean Exhibit A and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A and B.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a shot of those boxes in the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This one, Exhibit A, shows that--this is the exact--now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the indentation in this box right here. This is before it was ever moved, and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. If I had known what you wanted, I would have brought you a better print--picked out a better print.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say on Exhibit A it shows a box in the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. These boxes [indicating], yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the way they were piled up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, just exactly like that.

Mr. BALL. And you say there is an indentation on that box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right here.

Mr. BALL. That shows in the picture.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it look a little heavier?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked exhibit as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. There was an indentation in the box, was there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and you can tell on these boxes. We checked them all over and this box is a Second Rolling Readers--that was carried from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is another box that was taken off of this stack--this stack right here.

Mr. BALL. Is it shown in the picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It will show on another negative.

Mr. BALL. You see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by "another box taken from this stack here."

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box right under this.

Mr. BALL. Right under what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right under this box.

Mr. BALL. You mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean the little Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. There are two boxes stacked up here--here's one, and here's one.

Mr. BALL. Were they both Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these books was underneath.

Mr. BALL. It's marked "books"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It's marked "books" and it was underneath this box.

Mr. BALL. Now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked "Rolling Readers"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. BALL. Now, there were two Rolling Readers boxes, weren't there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were they taken from?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were taken from the fourth aisle and put there.

Mr. BALL. Where were they stacked in the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this shows as much as you can before anything was moved, and at that time, we went over to this other place----

Mr. BALL. Did you take this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted.

Mr. BALL. That's after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints right there.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved other than those you have showed me?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Just these two.

Mr. BALL. Just the two that show the cartons, and those are Exhibits A and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have probably got one down there I can get you that is a lot better print than that. If you want a better print, I can get it for you.

Mr. BALL. Then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as "Exhibit D," was that taken by you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's after they were dusted--there's fingerprint dust on every box.

Mr. BALL. And they were not in that position then when you first saw them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window sill?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Where is your other picture--and I will show you? See this box right here--this box?

Mr. BALL. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B, you can read it right here--it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling Readers."

Mr. BALL. That says 10.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling Reader--it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up there, they go by this right here, this little print. Now, this box was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it is wrapped around--that was laying in the window like this on the top box.

Mr. BALL. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is Exhibit B.

Mr. BALL. It was on the window ledge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned up on end.

Mr. BALL. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a description of "this box"--you mean the box marked "books"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box marked "books"--now, we have--this thing is stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in this other print. You can't see it in this print.

Mr. BALL. What other print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your negative.

Mr. BALL. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this box was sitting right here--the first box in Exhibit A.

Mr. BALL. Wait just a minute--let me direct your attention to Exhibit B, does it show a box on the window ledge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box--the Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. BALL. That picture was taken before the box was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And underneath that was another box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Another Rolling Reader box?

Mr. BALL. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A box marked "books".

Mr. BALL. It was larger in size?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was larger in size.

Mr. BALL. Than the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on its end or on its side?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this print--this is just a bad print.

Mr. BALL. When you say "in this," what is it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This is Exhibit--what is it?

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit A.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A--it was standing on end.

Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit A--can you tell me looking at Exhibit A whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the center, or over at the right.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. How close to the edge of the sill?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right at the edge.

Mr. BALL. Right at the edge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were fired at President Kennedy.

Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified in Exhibit A is shown in that picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the top corner.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's this corner right here.

Mr. BALL. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Have you got a ballpoint pen?

(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the right of the window as you stand looking out of the window.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It would be these boxes back over in here--it would be the top of those boxes.

Mr. BALL. How far were they away from the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I would have to look at the measurements--I have the measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one.

Mr. BALL. You are referring to Exhibit A?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A.

Mr. BALL. And it is the row of boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Behind this window--that's the top of that box--that's all it is.

Mr. BALL. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was.

Mr. BALL. Let's make two circles--one circle around the top of the Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle an "X" circle and mark it out here--mark "X" and the other circle a "Y" circle.

(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X" circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window sill itself?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Sitting right on the sill.

Mr. BALL. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y" circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the window.

Mr. BALL. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, on A and B.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there--in the southeast corner of the building--folded.

Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper--I don't know what it was.

Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.

Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures--one of the shots after the duplicate shot.

Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down--I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.

Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water pipes in the corner there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was that with reference to those pipes--the paper wrapping?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Laying right beside it--right here.

Mr. BALL. Was it folded over?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled--it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.

Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know--I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Mr. BALL. Was it near the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which way from the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was east of the window.

Mr. BALL. Over in the corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Over in the corner--in the southeast corner of the building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where it was.

Mr. BALL. You say you dusted it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. With that magnetic powders.

Mr. BALL. Did you lift any prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. There wasn't but just smudges on it--is all it was. There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of tape on it to preserve it.

Mr. BALL. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; just a partial print.

Mr. BALL. The print of a finger or palm or what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You couldn't tell, it was so small.

Mr. BALL. But you did dust it and lift some print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with some paper?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have--it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it just strictly for fingerprinting.

Mr. BALL. Let's stick with the paper.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over it--I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You lifted a print off of a box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and it was, I believe, we have it that it was--I can read the measurements off of one of these things--how far it was.

Mr. BALL. Fine, do that.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was 16-1/2 inches from the--from this wall over here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Which wall are you talking about?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was from the south wall of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The box from which you lifted the prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box never was moved.

Mr. BALL. That box never was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That box never was moved.

Mr. BALL. And you took a picture of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was with them in the corner all the time--they were with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and help us in case they were needed.

Mr. BALL. Johnson and Montgomery?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery--they were with me all the time over in that one corner.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was its location with reference to the corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's the exact location.

Mr. BALL. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was found?

(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. That would be directly south?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be directly south of where the box was.

Mr. BALL. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is 16 inches from the south wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you lifted a print there off of this box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And now, is that shown in the picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the picture? Describe what you see there.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the--it would be the northwest corner of the box.

Mr. BALL. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A palm.

Mr. BALL. It was a palm print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it show the direction of the palm?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. West.

Mr. BALL. It would be made with the hand----

Mr. STUDEBAKER. With the right hand sitting on the box.

Mr. BALL. And the fingers pointed west, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that is the outline shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show--did you attempt to show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; could I?

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Did I do this?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm print was made?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; just the palm print.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J. B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you take a picture of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let me see that one.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. All right--it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper sack that was sitting there in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Let me see that one.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.)

There are two different views of it--there's one and here's one. That was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a shot--I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is marked--it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. That was taken looking directly into that--this is the sack with those chicken bones and all that mess was in there too.

Mr. BALL. Is the sack shown there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack--yes; it's right there.

Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it shows--it has some chicken bones in it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. None outside the sack?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.

Mr. BALL. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. And that's your No. 7.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's the third row over?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the third aisle from Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. That would be the third set of windows?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be the third set of windows--it would be--one, two, three.

Mr. BALL. The third set of windows from Houston Street--you mark it.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.

Mr. BALL. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by numbers, did you not?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge to the sidewalk, didn't you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many feet?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Let me see--61 feet from the window ledge to the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call him, if you want to.

Mr. BALL. Well, I already have taken some of them.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of them--it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more would make any difference. This is out of a master set--all of these pictures you have here.

Mr. BALL. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the position they were in.

Mr. BALL. It is?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes--not--this was after they were moved, but I put them back in the same exact position.

Mr. BALL. Were they that close--that was about the position?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, which will be "Exhibit J."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put them back in the same position?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And took a picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit J, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here--a few numbers on here. Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You want 1 marked on this box?

(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And outline the indentation with a circle.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that which is shown in the circle on 3?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. That's the only one?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured he might have stacked them up.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of that box.

Mr. BALL. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that box in your crime lab?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our evidence and I haven't seen it since.

Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's print.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. BALL. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard before you moved it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner of this box down there.

Mr. BALL. They just took the top part of the box down there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it back--that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I don't know what was going on.

Mr. BALL. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked Exhibit J----

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This picture has the palm print on it.

Mr. BALL. It has the palm print--it had been removed and had been identified and brought back and put in the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It had been brought back and put in the box and as being Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. BALL. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found.

Mr. BALL. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes back where you first saw them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then you took a picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before the boxes were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And before the palm print was identified?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken bones in it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was found?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, no prints.

Mr. BALL. Or the two-wheeler truck?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. No prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. You dusted around there for them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I dusted everything around that area. There was just smears and smudges on the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Did you dust the rifle?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and they worked on it down there at the lab.

Mr. BALL. Do you have the measurements of the boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, I have all the measurements.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Down at the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Let's take Exhibit J--how did the height of the little Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box on the sill was lower than the box--do you want to mark it "4"--the box in the window?

Mr. BALL. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him.

Mr. STERN. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes were placed that way?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A good gun rest.

Mr. STERN. In that arrangement?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, it was a good gun rest.

Mr. STERN. With the box in front lower than the box behind?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. In other words, it's like this--you see--it would be down on a level like this--it shows where the butt of the gun was up behind him here. He was down like this--nobody could see him from the street. He was behind this window. He didn't shoot this way because everybody would be looking right at him.

Mr. BALL. Now, how big was this paper that you saw--you saw the wrapper--tell me about how big that paper bag was--how long was it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was about, I would say, 3-1/2 to 4 feet long.

Mr. BALL. The paper bag?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And how wide was it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 8 inches.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. You can read it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your signature and we will send it right on up to the Commission.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Whichever is the easiest for you.

Mr. BALL. It is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course, but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I will read it and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. She will notify you.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF C. N. DHORITY

The testimony of C. N. Dhority was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian was present.

Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. DHORITY. C. N. Dhority.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. DHORITY. Detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. You understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, do you not?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have been requested to come up here and give your testimony?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify to such matters that came to your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you not?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with the Department?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was born in Tuscumbia, Ala., in August 1923, and lived there until I was about 10 years old, and have been in Dallas the rest of the time.

I have been on the police department since August 24, 1946.

Mr. BALL. What department do you work with?

Mr. DHORITY. I work for Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Homicide?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Homicide Department?

Mr. DHORITY. Since 1955.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I believe it was around 2 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Was that the time you usually went to work?

Mr. DHORITY. No, I was off that day.

Mr. BALL. Well, how did you happen to go to work that day?

Mr. DHORITY. Lt. Wells called me and told me to come to work.

Mr. BALL. And you went to work at the main office of the Police Department?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You arrived at about 2 p.m.?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually work with another detective?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes. H. H. Blessing.

Mr. BALL. Was he on duty that day with you?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe so. He got shot last December and has been in pretty bad shape. He just works sometimes and I don't know whether he was there that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you work with anybody that day, November 22, after you came to work?

Mr. DHORITY. I worked part of the day with C. W. Brown; he's a patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau.

Mr. BALL. What is the first thing you did that day after you came to work?

Mr. DHORITY. I started answering telephones, I believe; they were all ringing.

Mr. BALL. And did you later see Lee Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what time was the first time you saw him?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall exactly what time it was--he was in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit in a group where Oswald was questioned?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the first thing that you did that day with respect to the investigation of the President's assassination?

Mr. DHORITY. Around 6 p.m., Detective Brown and myself went out and got Mr. McWatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him.

Mr. BALL. You were with Mr. McWatters, were you, in the lineup during the showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time?

Mr. DHORITY. About 6:30. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. You two men were with him?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There was some other people there also at that time, weren't there; some other witnesses?

Mr. DHORITY. Quite a few down there as well as I recall, in the showup room.

Mr. BALL. At the showup room?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of them?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a man named W. W. Whaley at that time?

Mr. DHORITY. Whaley, that's a cabdriver?

Mr. BALL. The cabdriver.

Mr. DHORITY. I don't believe that was that night--I was thinking that was the next day.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you at some time talk to Whaley?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, briefly, I took him back down to the cab company down there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a fellow at this showup at 6:30, did you talk to anybody named Sam Guinyard? Or Ted Callaway?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall the names.

Mr. BALL. But at this showup at 6:30 you and Brown were with McWatters, were you not?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Leavelle there, J. R. Leavelle--a detective?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--he could have been--there was quite a few officers there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what occurred at the showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; he identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the four-man lineup.

Mr. BALL. Were any questions asked of the men in the lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I wasn't holding the showup. I was just with him and viewing the lineup. I believe that someone up there did that.

Mr. BALL. What did McWatters say to you?

Mr. DHORITY. He identified him as the man that rode on the bus and said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that Detective Sims had took out of Oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the transfer as his transfer.

Mr. BALL. You took McWatters' affidavit after that, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Right after he had made an identification?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. At that time, and I'll show you a copy of an affidavit by McWatters, and will you take a look at that, please?

Mr. DHORITY. [Examined instrument referred to.]

Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit from Mr. McWatters?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm and Houston and went out on Marsalis and picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "This man was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the No. 2 man I saw in a lineup tonight."

Now, you read that, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say he identified Oswald, he identified him as a man that he had seen before doing what--did he tell you?

Mr. DHORITY. No, I just asked him if he saw the man there that he picked up, and he said it was the No. 2 man.

I don't know whether you've talked to him or not.

Mr. BALL. Yes, I have.

Mr. DHORITY. But to me, he is the type of person that the longer you talk to him--he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say, "Well, I'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else.

Mr. BALL. Well, what I want to know is this--he identified Oswald, but did he tell you where he had seen Oswald before and what Oswald had done?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought he picked him up down there close to the Book Depository on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you that? As he went out on Marsalis that some man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the President had been shot?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't know exactly for word to word--it's in the affidavit there.

Mr. BALL. This is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is that right?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were walking back across the street to the bus, he said, "Well, I think he went out on Marsalis with me." He said, "He could have got off sooner."

Mr. BALL. Well, I want to read this affidavit into the record. It says:

"The State of Texas, County of Dallas

"Before me, Patsy Collins, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Cecil J. McWatters, 2523 Blyth, DA 1-2999, Dallas, Texas, Business Address: Dallas Transit Company.

"Who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m. I was driving Marsalis Bus No. 1213. I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around Houston. I went on out Marsalis and picked up a woman. I asked her if she knew the President had been shot and she thought I was kidding. I told her if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me the President was shot in the temple. This man was grinning and never did say anything. The woman said that it was not a grinning matter. I don't remember where I let this man off. This man looks like the #2 man I saw in a lineup tonight. The transfer #004459 is a transfer from my bus with my punch mark."

Is that about what McWatters told you?

Mr. DHORITY. That's what he told me when I was taking the affidavit from him. Like I say, when I was walking back across the street with him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer No. 004459?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Issued by the Dallas Transit Co?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what did he tell you about that?

Mr. DHORITY. He said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Now, did Captain Fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver to somebody?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of the night or day was that?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall when it was, but, from his office there I took them up to the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Were there three spent 6.5 rifle shells, is that right?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you return any shells to Captain Fritz?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All of them or one of them?

Mr. DHORITY. No; he told me to bring him one back.

Mr. BALL. You brought one back in an envelope?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Lieutenant Day kept two; is that right?

Mr. DHORITY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when paraffin casts were made of Oswald's hands and his face?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who made them?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe that was Pete Barnes and Johnny Hicks, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you attend another showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. DHORITY. That was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the McWatters showup and there was a Mrs. Davis there.

Mr. BALL. That was the same day?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, did somebody send you out to her house?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Lieutenant Wells sent me out there.

Mr. BALL. What was her first name?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were two of them--I don't recall for sure--as well as I remember--it was Mrs. Jeanette Davis.

Mr. BALL. There were two girls--Virginia and Jeanette?

Mr. DHORITY. Virginia and Jeanette Davis, and I took the affidavit from Virginia, as well as I recall it.

Mr. BALL. You went from the police department out to the Oak Cliff region someplace, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who sent you out there?

Mr. DHORITY. Lieutenant Wells.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. DHORITY. C. W. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And what address did you go to?

Mr. DHORITY. 400 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who did you see there?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, there were quite a few people in the house there, but we were told to contact Virginia Davis and her sister, Jeanette Davis.

Mr. BALL. And, did you talk to them?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did they give you anything?

Mr. DHORITY. Virginia gave me a .38 hull.

Mr. BALL. Did she tell you where she got it?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe that she said that she found it in her front yard, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. DHORITY. We carried them down to the police department and took affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup.

Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With them?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time of the night?

Mr. DHORITY. The lineup--I imagine was about 7:30.

Mr. BALL. 7:30 at night. And who was in the lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. They identified Oswald as the No. 2 man in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Who else was in the lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You didn't have that?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't hold the lineup.

Mr. BALL. What do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in your report?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't have a report showing any numbers.

Mr. BALL. Were you with Virginia and Jeanette Davis, standing with them?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was about what time of night, you said, 7:30?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your records show that on November 22, 1963, there was a showup at 7:55 p.m.

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I don't recall exactly what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you say to these people?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I was there with them and there at the time of the showup, and they both were----

Mr. BALL. I know--but how was it conducted--did somebody ask questions?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, as I recall, somebody was holding the showup and there was other people there at the same time looking at them.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup?

Mr. DHORITY. I think they did.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you show these two Davis girls a picture of anybody before they went in there, did you ever show them Oswald's picture?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them before you brought them down?

Mr. DHORITY. I just told them I wanted to take an affidavit off of them and to take them down to a showup.

Mr. BALL. Down to a showup?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you were in the showup, did you say anything to them?

Mr. DHORITY. Did I say anything to them?

Mr. BALL. During the showup, did you say anything to the two girls?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall saying anything to them at all.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you?

Mr. DHORITY. They said that the No. 2 man looked like the man, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. "Looked like the man"--looked like the man what?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe she said that run across her yard, as well as I remember. It's in the affidavit.

Mr. BALL. Who took the affidavit?

Mr. DHORITY. I took the one from Virginia, I believe.

Mr. BALL. And who took the one from Jeanette?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe Brown took that one.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to you, that Virginia gave you?

Mr. DHORITY. I gave it to Lieutenant Day in the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not Virginia or Jeanette Davis found an empty shell--did she tell you she found an empty shell--Jeanette Davis?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--it seems like she told me she had found one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Gave it to the police that day?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. I have here an affidavit signed "Mrs. Virginia Davis," is that a copy of the affidavit that you took from Virginia that day?

Mr. DHORITY. [Reads instrument referred to.] Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked as Exhibits Nos.--Mr. McWatters' will be Dhority "Exhibit No. A," and Mrs. Davis' affidavit will be "Exhibit No. B," of Mr. Dhority's deposition.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dhority "Exhibits Nos. A and B," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Did you do anything more that day, Friday the 22d? You told us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts.

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything more you did that day?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything particularly. I did quite a bit of telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall--there was so much going on at the city hall, I can't recall everything.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the next day, November 23, you took part in a showup, didn't you?

Mr. DHORITY. I didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there.

Mr. BALL. Were you present?

Mr. DHORITY. I was present--what it was--they wanted me to take the cabdriver's--me and Brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the station, and I believe we walked into the showup room while there was a showup--the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in there and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office was also there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Whaley?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. Was there a cab driver there named Scoggins [spelling] S-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also?

Mr. DHORITY. I believe there was--there was two cabdrivers there and I know Mr. Alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us they identified him.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley ever tell you he identified him?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you take an affidavit from Whaley?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you present at some time on the 24th when Oswald was in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be Sunday, November 24.

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us about what you did that day, on the 24th of November.

Mr. DHORITY. Well, on--I went up to jail along with Leavelle and Graves and got him and brought him down to Captain Fritz' office that morning.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office that day?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, Captain Fritz and Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mr. DHORITY. And Mr. Holmes.

Mr. BALL. And Holmes is what?

Mr. DHORITY. Of the Post Office Department.

Mr. BALL. What time did you bring him into Fritz' office?

Mr. DHORITY. About 9:30 in the morning.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there?

Mr. DHORITY. Oh, I imagine it was shortly after 11 o'clock when Captain Fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there in front of the jail office to move Oswald down to the County in.

Mr. BALL. What was said there in Fritz' office that day--do you remember any of the conversations?

Mr. DHORITY. There was a lot of conversation.

Mr. BALL. What did they talk about--the people in there?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, they were talking to Oswald and Mr. Kelley talked to him and Mr. Sorrels talked to him--I don't think Mr. Holmes talked to him too much. I think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. DHORITY. I couldn't remember all that was said.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Was your deposition taken before?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By Mr. Hubert?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't know--it was some FBI man, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. But you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; I wasn't sworn under oath--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. After they questioned Oswald, what did you do?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I believe we gave him a sweater to put on. I think it was kind of cool--one of his sweaters.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; Leavelle handcuffed himself to Oswald just before I left the office.

Mr. BALL. Had he been handcuffed during the questioning in Fritz' office that morning?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall--I didn't have my handcuffs on him.

Mr. BALL. Just before you left the office, Leavelle handcuffed him--did he put one cuff on Oswald and one on Leavelle; is that it?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Fritz gave you instructions to do what?

Mr. DHORITY. He gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put Oswald in.

Mr. BALL. Is that what you did?

Mr. DHORITY. I went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and was in the process of backing it up there--in fact--I was just about ready to stop, when Captain Fritz came out and Leavelle and Oswald and Graves and Johnson and Montgomery came out the jail door.

Captain Fritz reached over to the door of the car and I was turned around to see--backing it up--still had the car moving it along and I saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. At first, I thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then I saw a hand come out and I heard the shot.

Mr. BALL. Graves and Leavelle were there beside Oswald, were they?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes; beside Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was between Graves and Leavelle?

Mr. DHORITY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Any questions?

Mr. ELY. Yes, I have one or two.

I would like to go back if I can to these lineups. You say you were present at three of them and I have taken one by one--the first one was at 6:36 p.m. on Friday, the one where Mr. McWatters identified Oswald. Did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't pay any attention to them, really.

Mr. ELY. Do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance compared with Oswald?

Mr. DHORITY. No; I didn't study it.

Mr. ELY. And you don't remember what they were wearing either?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember anything unusual about Oswald's behavior at that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at the other three, as far as you can remember?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall.

Mr. ELY. Now, do you remember how Mr. McWatters indicated his choice, in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people present could hear who he was choosing?

Mr. DHORITY. No; he did not--it was very low.

Mr. ELY. He said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they couldn't hear?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. What about the other two people, did they indicate their choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly?

Mr. DHORITY. It was also quietly.

Mr. ELY. In other words, none of the men could hear what the other two were saying?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. Now, the lineup where Jeannette Davis made the identification, did you observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other men in that lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember how Jeanette and Virginia Davis indicated their choices to you?

Mr. DHORITY. Just standing there by them--very quietly told me.

Mr. ELY. In more or less the same procedure as the other one?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald do anything unusual at that lineup?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual.

Mr. ELY. And the one Saturday morning with Mr. Whaley--I realize you didn't participate in this one, but you were present. Do you not remember anything about that?

Mr. DHORITY. I don't recall anything unusual about it at all--I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether at that one Oswald was yelling about something?

Mr. DHORITY. It seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and made some comment about being handcuffed. Of course, they were all handcuffed--it was something like that--I can't recall for sure, but as far as any outburst or anything like that, I don't recall anything like that.

Mr. ELY. Now, your report states that you were present in Captain Fritz' office Friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. Could you estimate from what time to what time you were in Fritz' office on Friday evening?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't have any idea.

Mr. ELY. Do you know about how long you were there?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. Was it just while they were having the paraffin tests?

Mr. DHORITY. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Were you there for any of the interrogation of Friday evening?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. None at all?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. Is it correct that you were at the police station until 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, is that what time you went home?

Mr. DHORITY. That sounds about right.

Mr. ELY. Do you know what time Oswald was checked into the jail on Friday night?

Mr. DHORITY. I sure don't.

Mr. ELY. You had nothing to do with it, taking him up there?

Mr. DHORITY. No.

Mr. ELY. How would you characterize Oswald's behavior on Sunday morning when you were present in Fritz' office? Was he at that time--did he seem calm or excited?

Mr. DHORITY. Very calm.

Mr. ELY. Did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the same?

Mr. DHORITY. He was very calm and fresh.

Mr. ELY. Just one more thing I would like to cover and that is the conditions in the police station surrounding Fritz' office, I mean, special with regard to newspapermen being present--were the corridors filled with newspapermen--do you recall how much of a crowd was there?

Mr. DHORITY. When?

Mr. ELY. Well, let's say when you were there on Friday evening.

Mr. DHORITY. They were so thick you couldn't walk through them. You had to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. There wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office, cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way through.

Mr. ELY. All right, Mr. Ball, I don't believe I have anything else.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Dhority, this will be written up.

Mr. DHORITY. The only other thing that I had to do with that that we didn't go into--now, I rode in the ambulance with Oswald to the hospital.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I held his pulse all the way out there. It was very, very weak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reaction then----

Mr. BALL. He was unconscious, was he?

Mr. DHORITY. He was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the operating room, Detective Graves went in with him there and Captain Fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of Oswald in the hospital, and I was talking to Mr. Price, who is the administrator of the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that he was dead, so I went back then and contacted Captain Fritz by 'phone and then got Oswald's clothing and had Oswald's mother and wife look at Oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where I got Dr. Rose to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the Commission.

Mr. DHORITY. Well, I will just waive my signature.

Mr. BALL. All right. Fine. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SIMS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. SIMS. Richard M. Sims.

Mr. BALL. And what is your business or occupation?

Mr. SIMS. Police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And what is your position with the police department?

Mr. SIMS. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2, 1948.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and educated and what you have done before you went with the police department?

Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I came to work down here when I was 23.

Mr. BALL. With the police department?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have been with homicide how long?

Mr. SIMS. Since September 1957.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?

Mr. SIMS. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart when the President arrived.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to the Trade Mart?

Mr. SIMS. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.--Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. SIMS. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an accident.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day?

Mr. SIMS. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland Hospital, so we did.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you go with?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Boyd is your partner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the Depository Store, down to the Book Store.

Mr. BALL. Tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back to the store at the triple underpass--I don't remember what it was--I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation from where the shot had been fired.

Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?

Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Did you go back there--back to Elm and Houston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.

Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the building.

Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.

Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You heard something about it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that.

Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you to go there?

Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and proceeded to the building, went in the building.

Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in?

Mr. SIMS. The front door.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Do you think you heard that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't have went directly to the Book Store like we did.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor of that building."

"Which building?"

"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."

Do you know whether you could have heard that?

Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir. We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our radio on.

Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator.

Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.

Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator.

Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator?

Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go first?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe.

Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us.

Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.

Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work.

Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found.

Mr. BALL. And you could hear them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?

Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?

Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it would be the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.

Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them?

Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace.

Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney?

Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I don't know who all.

Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls or not?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he?

Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was Detective Studebaker that works for him.

Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker.

Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.

Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.

Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same position as when you had first seen them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had found the rifle over by the stairway.

Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building?

Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then?

Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by some paper.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that location?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who took that picture?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.

Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken--did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?

Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.

Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--I believe that's where it was.

Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the east?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.

Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.

Mr. BALL. To stay there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.

Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between the boxes and the window.

Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the window--what position they were on the window ledge?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding area there.

Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see--we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there, I believe.

Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the rifle was found?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were located on the floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.

Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.

Mr. BALL. There were three hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?

Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope.

Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not.

Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up?

Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open.

Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints.

Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have to look at the record--on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You and who?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out in the corridor there.

Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street.

Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.

Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is.

Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's?

Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full of people and I think----

Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people?

Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people.

Mr. BALL. What people?

Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there, all I know is that there was a lot of people.

Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker?

Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has been in the office there for several years.

Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory as to what was said in that interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.

Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time.

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "No."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on that evening.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself then.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him.

Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed?

Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.

Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept.

Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door.

Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's just a hall separating them.

Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him about his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was.

Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in Russia?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office and and before the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the President, what do you mean?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.

Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it.

Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?

Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?

Mr. SIMS. None at all.

Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did you say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia.

Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see--what did he say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't talk about her much.

Mr. BALL. Or his children?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a brother or not.

Mr. BALL. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room and also went to Irving, I believe.

Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around 3:30.

Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time?

Mr. SIMS. At 4:05.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police officers.

Mr. BALL. What two police officers?

Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry.

Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him down?

Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor?

Mr. SIMS. Third floor.

Mr. BALL. On the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take him?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.

Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And would you describe it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2-1/2 or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the----

Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.

Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of seats?

Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something like this here.

Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.

Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did.

Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.

Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.

Mr. BALL. How were they dressed?

Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know.

Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will.

Mr. SIMS. All right.

Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.

Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him.

Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail?

Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.

Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is 26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.

Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience?

Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.

Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?

Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and what he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted natural.

Mr. BALL. Answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he protest any?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a T-shirt on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a T-shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.

Mr. BALL. He answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the witnesses out there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there.

Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.

Mr. BALL. At 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald some more.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names.

Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald took place?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were handcuffed or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you heard there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he told Captain Fritz or the agents either.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions.

Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their names--I don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?

Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city hall.

Mr. BALL. And you took him where?

Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there.

Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup?

Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one.

Mr. BALL. Mention their names again.

Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.

Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?

Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that.

Mr. BALL. Underneath that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that.

Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes.

Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they have coats on--did anyone have a coat on?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I conducted the second showup.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one, two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers assigned to these people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned to the second showup.

Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.

Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup.

Mr. BALL. The same numbers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same men?

Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers.

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at 6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by Fritz that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did this take place?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And who was present?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else was there--I don't know who else was present.

Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave Johnston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder complaint?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what murder?

Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to your records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.

Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40.

Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.

Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1?

Mr. SIMS. No. 1----

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was three?

Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. BALL. Who was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know his address?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed.

Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not.

Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who was out in front.

Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side?

Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and ask the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how differently he was dressed.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as I know.

Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Well--one that color--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that were in the audience side?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out there--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the witnesses at either of the three showups?

Mr. SIMS. Never did----

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. About what time was this?

Mr. SIMS. 7:55.

Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald for about another half hour.

Mr. BALL. And were you present?

Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I don't know if he was in there all the time or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was what time?

Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to].

Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one.

Mr. BALL. After the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup.

Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him?

Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.

Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What did you find?

Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. And what else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left front?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it.

Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' examination.

Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket he had that in.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification.

Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk.

Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who?

Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.

Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those?

Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope.

Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't think I talked with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?

Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his punch-card.

Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, identify his transfer.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.

Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.

Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?

Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top.

Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?

Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. What did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.

Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't know for sure.

Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. And what did he do?

Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?

Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.

Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."

Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"?

Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.

Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.

Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face?

Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. Of whose face?

Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made?

Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was.

Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted a good long while--I don't know how long.

Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations then for the paraffin tests.

Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later than 10 o'clock that day?

Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his face.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then?

Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there.

Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he was there in the office?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.

Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Why did you do that?

Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to.

Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Is it usual?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual.

Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do it for?

Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe.

Mr. BALL. For the press?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room is--the assembly room.

Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage.

Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen.

Mr. BALL. And what did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with him.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer?

Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this was about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5 minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have been about, I guess, about 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him down there--what were his exact instructions?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?

Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police assembly room.

Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the showup room?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room."

Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us.

Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did.

Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you?

Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."

Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell them?

Mr. SIMS. He told them "no."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of them hollering at him--that's all I remember.

Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what?

Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him.

Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy.

Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on November the 23d.

Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there.

Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for questioning.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. And that was all.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here--"Boyd and Hall stayed in the office during the interrogation."

Mr. BALL. You weren't in there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what.

Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's room at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there?

Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not.

Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one?

Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something of that nature. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BALL. A paper clip?

Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I know, the room was clean.

Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave?

Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and left at 12:30.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well----

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald case?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who are "we"?

Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.

Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. From the jail.

Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at 7:15 to the jail.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day.

Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. Over the television.

Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?

Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I believe we ought to do that.

You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, Mr. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th.

Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days?

Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You worked it out together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the things occurred?

Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory?

Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was prepared?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific figure--is this because you had some record of these times?

Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen.

Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions?

Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be over here.

Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them.

Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight.

Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city prisoners?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those.

Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, 5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10", 169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.

Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the two?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our identification jacket--these are their descriptions.

Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their description?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, Tex."

Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up and in what context the name was given?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.

Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he gave it to him?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was missing.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their jobs after the assassination.

Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't.

Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?

Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.

Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time of his arrest?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.

Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol shells--cartridges--did you comment on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all.

Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember what I asked or what he said.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was conducting himself?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.

Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what questions he didn't?

Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the questions.

Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the course of the day?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.

Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment?

Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a lawyer, and things of that nature.

Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment?

Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye, and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he said he deserved being hit in the eye.

Mr. STERN. Why was that?

Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's what he told us.

Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that?

Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up in New York.

Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to me--whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me.

Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at any time he mentioned getting a lawyer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the interrogations? Or showups?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12 that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert--quick.

Mr. STERN. Calm?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday.

Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was crowded.

Mr. STERN. With officials?

Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials.

Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of the interrogations.

Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the course of the same interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to him and more or less ask him questions.

Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the corridor, as to people who were not officials?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded.

Mr. STERN. Because of the----

Mr. SIMS. Photographers and newsmen.

Mr. STERN. Were there television cameras in the corridor at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Do you know when they were brought in, were you present when they were installed?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't know when they were installed.

Mr. STERN. As I understand it, you had to bring Oswald through part of this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when you brought him to and from?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the interrogation room was all in room 317, but when we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to Captain Fritz' office, it would be a matter of 20 or 30 feet there in the hall.

Mr. STERN. And in the course of those trips through the crowd, would people try to ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And tried to get him to make statements on the microphone?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they would.

Mr. STERN. Would he respond--do you recall--ever?

Mr. SIMS. Sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't.

Mr. STERN. Did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him in any way, or did he also take this calmly?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't notice anything different.

Mr. STERN. No noticeable difference?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you describe his demeanor on Saturday as being the same as it was on Friday, was he still calm and in complete self-control?

Mr. SIMS. I was not around him a lot Saturday, I don't believe, but he still was calm and alert and everything.

Mr. STERN. How about his demeanor at the press conference Friday night when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was--during the press interview--he was pretty snappy. He made some quick answers--I don't know what all it involved--he denied knowledge of the President's assassination, I believe, and he denied knowledge of killing Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. And he was snappy and arrogant and hostile?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. But was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in control?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had control of himself; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. So that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of expressing his feelings?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know--I don't know, but he was snappy at that time--at that press interview.

Mr. STERN. That's all. Thank you.

That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

I believe Mr. Ely has a question or two.

Mr. ELY. There's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. You took--I'm referring to late Friday night or let's say early Saturday morning.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. You took Oswald up to the jail office on the fourth floor--about what time?

Mr. SIMS. I took him up to the jail office approximately 12:20.

Mr. ELY. And is that the last time you saw him before going home?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the fourth floor at 12:23.

Mr. ELY. And about what time did you leave to go home for the night?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe--I'm not positive about this, but I believe that night Boyd and I worked later than the other officers did.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any knowledge as to whether Oswald was checked out of the jail again after 12:23?

Mr. SIMS. Not to my knowledge. He was checked out later on in the day.

Mr. ELY. Right, but I'm speaking of now of sometime around 12:30 again--a quarter of 1 or something like that--you wouldn't know anything about that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know about that, but I checked him out later on that day. I don't know what time it was. I checked him out at 12:25 a.m.--I believe that's 10:25 a.m. is when I checked him out on the 23d.

Mr. ELY. That's all I have, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. We have been attaching these as exhibits just for illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your deposition?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that will be fine.

Mr. BALL. All right. That will be Exhibit A of this deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Sims Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is the written report you made to the police department of the events of the investigation on Friday, November 22, and Saturday, November 23?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and the day of Oswald's murder on the 24th.

Mr. BALL. That was the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission as you have here testified as she has taken it down.

Do you have any preference on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fine. That will be all right. Thanks a lot.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. SIMS RESUMED

The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SIMS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you remember that he asked about those?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just how you came to see those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the hulls had been found.

So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were laying there by the window on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab to take pictures of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can remember?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive about that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were taken?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.

Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day dusted them for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically remember what you did with those hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection as to what happened to the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my partner, and refreshed my memory.

Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day finished with them and to take possession of them.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. I did that.

Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them?

Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them?

Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in his office.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say. Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city hall that afternoon?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or not he had any record?

Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who was there?

Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or either gave it to him.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?

Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were.

Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?

Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to preserve the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures?

Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.

Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did, or Boyd tell you?

Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did that.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?

Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on Monday?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I talked to him.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office."

And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told me this.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain Fritz told you on this past Monday?

Mr. SIMS. No, not the past Monday. Now this was----

Mr. BELIN. Well, today is Wednesday. Could it have been on Tuesday, or Monday?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if it was yesterday or Monday.

Mr. BELIN. Was it either late Monday, April 6, or Tuesday, April 7?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That Captain Fritz told you that back on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls and bring them down?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And you also discussed this with Detective Boyd either on April 6 or 7?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, after they told you this, what is the fact as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually putting these shells in an envelope?

Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir; I remember putting them in an envelope.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you now independently remember putting that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I do, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. I remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. What about Boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? Or pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe he did, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color envelope it was?

Mr. SIMS. I believe it was a brown, something brown envelope.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the desk here?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how big an envelope it was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't. We have two different sizes, and I don't remember what size.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember from whom you got the envelope?

Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day had it. When he goes to a scene, he has envelopes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lieutenant Day or anyone else see you put that envelope in your pocket?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but he was there when I took possession of the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. He was?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I am not sure, I don't know if the other crime lab officer was present or not. That would be Studebaker, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the envelope in which they were?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical possession?

Mr. SIMS. In this envelope.

Mr. BELIN. Was the envelope on his desk?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I actually gave them to him or put them there on the desk in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. But he was there when you left there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And that is the last time you saw them?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if I initialed the hulls or not.

Mr. BELIN. If you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would you have used?

Mr. SIMS. As a rule, RMS.

Mr. BELIN. RMS?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I believe I initialed the hulls or the envelope that I put them in.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the hull? By that, do you understand what I mean?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it all depends. I would initial the outside of the hulls, I imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull.

Mr. BELIN. Either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the hull?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the end.

Mr. BELIN. On the end of the hull?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, the spent end.

Mr. BELIN. The spent end?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; but I do definitely remember him telling me about be sure and get the hulls.

Mr. BELIN. You definitely remember getting the hulls?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; sure do.

Mr. BELIN. Have you and I ever talked before you walked through the door?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. As soon as you walked through the door, I had you raise your right hand and you started testifying, is that correct?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; just go ahead.

Mr. BELIN. Ship it on in?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD S. STOVALL

The testimony of Richard S. Stovall was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you please stand up, Mr. Stovall, and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. STOVALL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you please state your name for the record?

Mr. STOVALL. Richard S. Stovall.

Mr. BALL. And what is your address, please?

Mr. STOVALL. 3211 Grayson Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. STOVALL. Detective with the Homicide Bureau, City Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. STOVALL. Approximately 10 years--it will be 10 years this May.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission has asked us to ask every witness to tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know something about you.

Can you tell me that, please?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I was born here in Dallas in 1928. I was born in a frame house over here on West Page--329 West Page. I went to grade school at Winnetka Elementary School and I attended W. E. Greiner Junior High School over here on South Edgefield. I went to high school at Sunset High out on Jefferson Boulevard. After I left high school, I went to the Navy for 2 years, which was just after World War II and I quit high school, by the way, and after I got out of the Navy I came back to summer school Tech and finished.

After that, I went to work for the post office. After a few other jobs I had been with for just a short period of time--I went to work at the post office and I worked there for them for approximately 5 years, I believe; I think it was from 1949 to 1954, and in 1954 I quit the post office and went to the Police Department and I have been there since then.

Mr. BALL. You are a detective, are you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You work in plain clothes?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in this particular department?

Mr. STOVALL. I have been in this department since approximately August 15, 1962--about 18 months, I guess.

Mr. BALL. What do you call your department of the Detective Bureau?

Mr. STOVALL. It's Homicide-Robbery Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Do you work under Captain Fritz?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, had you been assigned a special duty, in view of the President's visit to Dallas?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I had--after I got to work.

Mr. BALL. At what time was that?

Mr. STOVALL. It was around 2 o'clock--I was watching television that morning and heard the deal on television.

Mr. BALL. You were not on duty at the time the President was shot?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to work at 2 o'clock?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, I was scheduled to go to work at 4 that day, I believe, but as soon as I heard that I got cleaned up and got ready for work and went on in.

Mr. BALL. Were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I wasn't--as soon as I got there.

I got there and one of my partners, G. F. Rose, got there about the same time. We were talking to a witness that had seen all the people standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything.

While talking to him, the officers brought Lee Harvey Oswald into the Homicide Bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there at the bureau. After we finished talking to this witness, we went back there and talked to him briefly.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall exactly--I went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was Lee Oswald, as well as I remember. Rose and I were both in there at the time. He had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "A. Hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it?

Mr. STOVALL. I'm not positive on that--I believe it was [spelling] H-i-d-e-l-l, I'm not sure.

And he also had identification of Lee Harvey Oswald, and I believe that was on a Social Security card and at that time Captain Fritz opened the door to the office there and sent Rose and I to go out to this address in Irving at 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving.

That was--I don't know where the Captain got the address, but it was an address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time.

Mr. BALL. The captain had you get another man to go with you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; we got J. P. Adamcik to go with us.

Mr. BALL. Is he a detective?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is.

Mr. BALL. And you did that, did you, you drove out there to Irving?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; the three of us--we went out to the location and parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. We were supposed to meet some county officers out there.

Mr. BALL. Why were you to meet the county officers out there?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, Irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had to either have the Irving police or the county officers with us.

Mr. BALL. Would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you meet some county officers there?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; they arrived about 30 to 45 minutes after we did--after we got out there; yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you wait for them?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you wait for them?

Mr. STOVALL. This was about one-half a block or a block from the house address.

Mr. BALL. Had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. We told them we were down the street about half a block. Of course when they came out there they could see us parked in the car down the street.

Mr. BALL. And what county officers did you meet out there?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, there was Harry Weatherford and the other two--one name was Oxford, and I don't recall the other one's name.

Mr. BALL. How about Walthers--does Buddy Walthers sound like it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the third one.

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then after you met them, what did you do?

Mr. STOVALL. We went on down to them and drove up in front of the house and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and Adamcik and two of the officers went to the back and Rose and I went, and the other officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could see some people inside the house and we could see through the front door, the door was open and the television was playing and Ruth Paine came to the door and identified herself to us. She said, "Yes; you are here about this mess that's on television."

Mr. BALL. What did you tell her about that?

Mr. STOVALL. At that time we told her that we wanted to search the house. We explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "That won't be necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that I searched was the front bedroom where Marina Oswald was staying. There are quite a few items on the list of property I have--I believe you have a copy of it. There are two that were taken out of that bedroom there--a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing.

Mr. BALL. Now, I want to go backward at the moment--have you identified that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time I went in. I heard--I think Rose started to the back bedroom, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom and Ruth Paine was standing there talking to him--I could hear her talking to him and she told him that Marina suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they were out of my sight then.

Mr. BALL. You heard Ruth say to Rose that Marina had suggested he look in the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ruth Paine tell him why Mariana had made that suggestion--what her reasons for it were?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. So, you think that Rose went to the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Adamcik do?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, Adamcik was out in the back. Now, before I went into the bedroom, I went to the back door and opened it and Adamcik and the two county officers came inside, but where Adamcik went, I couldn't tell you for sure. I know that he looked through some of the stuff in what I would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Ball and the Witness Stovall off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Getting back on the record.

Mr. STOVALL. Shortly after that, Rose came back in carrying this blanket, as well as I remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open.

Mr. BALL. It was tied with what kind of material?

Mr. STOVALL. It was tied with a white cord, as well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. A white what?

Mr. STOVALL. A white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me----

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. STOVALL. He told me that when he went to the garage, Marina had pointed to the blanket there and she said something to Ruth Paine and Ruth Paine told him that that was where Lee kept his rifle.

Mr. BALL. And the search that you made was in Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I do. I've got a list of all the articles we took from the house.

Mr. BALL. Give me that list first.

Mr. STOVALL. [Witness handed list to Counsel Ball.]

Mr. BALL. This list was made up by you men on the site or after you got back into the squad car?

Mr. STOVALL. No, this list was made the next day after we came back to work. This stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there.

Mr. BALL. And the next day you made a list of it, did you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Rose and I and there were two FBI agents that went over the property at the same time. We initialed the property, that is, we went over it--this list here.

Mr. BALL. This list here?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, this list here is a list of the property taken.

Mr. BALL. A list of the property taken from Ruth Paine's home at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mr. STOVALL. That was on the 22d.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d at about 3:30 p.m.?

Mr. STOVALL. 3:30 or 4--somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. I'll go into that later, and this was the list that was made up by you and Rose and two FBI agents the next day at the police department?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I'd like to have this marked as "Stovall Exhibit A," and it consists of page 1 and page 2 for the deposition.

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit No. A," for identification.)

Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, Detective Senkel, S-e-n-k-e-l [spelling] and Detective Potts were both there too.

Mr. BALL. Now, look at Exhibits A-1 and A-2 for the purpose of refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you have found in Marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those?

Mr. STOVALL. [Marked instruments referred to.]

Mr. BALL. All right, after you check them, we will go over them and you can make an explanation for the record.

Mr. STOVALL. All right, fine.

Mr. BALL. Now, since we have gone back on the record--Exhibit A-1 and A-2 have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken from Marina's room?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have an explanation to make as to certain of those, haven't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. STOVALL. On this list here--where it has 1963 Kodachrome transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, I have one brown pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. One of those, I believe, came out of the back room, which would be Ruth Paine's bedroom, and the other came out of the chest of drawers in Marina Oswald's bedroom, but I'm not sure which came from which place.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where the other articles that were on that list that have not been checked, were found?

Mr. STOVALL. Some of them I do, and some of them I'm not positive on.

Mr. BALL. Did you find them, or did some other officer find those other items--those other articles?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's hard to say. I don't remember for sure where these came from. I know that I went through the front bedroom there and when we started--I went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the stuff in there and Rose was also in there and Adamcik came in there too.

Mr. BALL. Give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are not checked there? Take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, from your memory, just where you found those articles.

Mr. STOVALL. There was one box of Kodaslides in the single name of Ruth Hyde, another yellow box of Kodaslides, single--I'm not sure where they came from. I believe they came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. I have listed one book from Sears Tower slide projector.

Mr. BALL. You don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in Marina's bedroom.

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I missed one up there when we checked them.

Mr. BALL. All right, very well.

Mr. STOVALL. That one, I'm not sure which bedroom it came from--I know it came from one of the bedrooms, but I don't know which one. I've got listed "one grey metal file box, which is 12 inches by 6 inches; youth pictures and literature." I've got, "One black and gray metal box 10 inches by 4 inches, letters, etc., one box brown Keystone projector." Let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this.

These two metal boxes came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom. This Keystone projector came out of the closet in the hall. Then, I have listed, "Three brown metal boxes 12 inches by 4 inches containing phonograph records." They came out of Ruth Paine's bedroom.

I've got listed, "One Blue Check telephone index book (addresses)"--I'm not sure which bedroom that came from. And, I've got listed "One bracket (instruction for mounting)" and I believe that came out of Marina's bedroom--I'm not sure. The next is not checked and I'm not sure, but it is "1963 Kodachrome transparency slides," which I explained a while ago. The next one I don't have checked is "One envelope with women's book entitled 'Simplicity'". I'm not sure which bedroom that came out of. Then I've got "One Russian book."

We took several books from Marina's bedroom and I don't recall taking any books from Ruth Paine's bedroom, but I don't remember the particular ones--it's very possible I did, I can't be sure, but that's the last one I don't have checked.

Mr. BALL. Did you search any other part of the house besides Marina's bedroom?

Mr. STOVALL. I assisted in searching the back bedroom. I searched the hall closet and I also looked at several things in the living room and the kitchen and the den.

Mr. BALL. Did you search the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day, I did the next day.

Mr. BALL. Rose searched the garage that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; he was out in the garage. We were going over the stuff pretty hastily at that time--that day.

Mr. BALL. How long were you there that day--how long were you there?

Mr. STOVALL. I would say for approximately 2 to 2-1/2 hours, if that long.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you first went in, did Ruth Paine say anything to you about expecting you, or something of that sort?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified ourselves, she said "I have been expecting you. You are here about this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television" at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the President's murder.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald had been apprehended at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got there.

Mr. BALL. Before you got there Oswald had been arrested and brought into the office?

Mr. STOVALL. They had brought him into the office after I was there.

Mr. BALL. Later on, did her husband come in there--come in the house?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, I guess we had been there approximately 15 minutes when Michael Paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he said he heard about the President's murder on television and he thought he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help.

Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or television?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I don't recall him saying where he said he heard about it--I don't recall him saying that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I can't recall asking him anything at that time. However, I did talk to him but I don't remember what the conversation was.

Mr. BALL. Did a Mrs. Randle come in the house also?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; she didn't. While we were loading this stuff into our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped Adamcik and was talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and talked to her and she said that her brother had taken Oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. She told us it could have been a rifle--is what she said. She said it was either in a brown paper box or wrapped in brown paper.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. STOVALL. It must have been around 5:30, because it was--I believe it was 6 when we got back to the office.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring somebody back with you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we brought Michael Paine--he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald and Marina's two children.

Mr. BALL. And did you take them into the offices of the police?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We took them into the Homicide and Robbery Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them after that?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that day--I didn't. We took them from there into the Forgery Bureau because there was so many people in our office up there.

Mr. BALL. Into which bureau?

Mr. STOVALL. Into the Forgery Bureau--we took them from the Homicide Bureau into the Forgery Bureau because they had room in there where we could leave them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do the rest of that day?

Mr. STOVALL. After that we went--we called on the phone--Rose did--trying to find this Wesley Frazier, who was this Mrs. Randle's brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said Oswald had put in his car that morning. Rose checked around and finally located him at a clinic in Irving. He called and found out where Wesley Frazier was--he called the Irving Police Department and talked to Detective McCabe out there and told him what the situation was and McCabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in 15 or 20 minutes, I guess, and he said that he had the boy at the Police Department out there.

Mr. BALL. You went out there and talked to him?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you also searched their home, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. And then you brought Linnie Randle and Wesley Frazier into Dallas and took statements from them?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but I don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started back to Irving with them, they also had a minister from their church with them, I believe. We started back to Irving and we got about halfway, I guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the station with the witnesses and we came back and Rose called the captain from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take Wesley Frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that time. I think he left around 9 o'clock and so we called him on the phone and he came back down and got there around 11:15 or 11:30.

Mr. BALL. And it was about 12:10 when you ran the polygraph on Frazier, wasn't it?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; it was about 12:10 when we finished, I think, when he finished running it.

Mr. BALL. About 12:10 when you finished the polygraph on Frazier?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?

Mr. STOVALL. Then, we went back down to the basement. We had left Frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as I remember. And we took him back down there and then we went on back out to Irving and left them.

Mr. BALL. When you took the polygraph, you were present during the polygraph examination of Frazier, were you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And during this examination, did you have before you the affidavit which Frazier had made?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't at that time?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. STOVALL. R. D. Lewis, he's the polygraph operator.

I might explain that to you--in our polygraph room we've got a two-way mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being given, and you can hear the questions and the answers.

Mr. BALL. Did you go home, then, after that?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; after we took them back to Irving we went home.

Mr. BALL. The next day, you made another search of the Paine home, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 1 o'clock, just past noon, 1:00 p.m.

Mr. BALL. And did you obtain a search warrant first this day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. From what judge?

Mr. STOVALL. From J. B. Brown, Jr.

Mr. BALL. Who went out on the search party?

Mr. STOVALL. Detectives Moore, Rose, Adamcik and myself. We went by the Irving Police Department and picked up Detective McCabe and he went with us.

Mr. BALL. Moore is also a detective attached to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, Homicide Bureau.

Mr. BALL. And that day you arrived at the Paine home about what time?

Mr. STOVALL. I would judge roughly around 1:30 or 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And did you knock on the door?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did, and Ruth Paine, I believe was the only one there at the time.

Mr. BALL. And what did you say and what did she say to you?

Mr. STOVALL. We told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the time, and I believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and that we could search the house anytime we wanted to.

Mr. BALL. And did you search the house?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did. We mainly concentrated our search of the garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search at all, and I know Rose hadn't spent much time out there because he didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. So, we searched the garage and concentrated our search there.

Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure--it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean they left you in the garage?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, they got in the car and drove off. They left their house.

Mr. BALL. You have made a report of what you did that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have that before you, Mr. Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have you refreshed your memory from the report?

Mr. STOVALL. I glanced over this--I've read this first and I haven't read this one.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to take some time to look over that report of your search on the 23d of November 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You stayed in the garage how long?

Mr. STOVALL. It seems like we were in that garage about 1-1/2 or 2 hours. We might have been there longer than that. We made a thorough search of the garage.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason you went out there the second time?

Mr. STOVALL. To the garage?

Mr. BALL. No, to the Paine home on the Irving Street address?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; the main reason we went out there--we wanted to make a more thorough search of the place. The first search that--we didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the whole house.

Mr. BALL. Were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your department as to what to look for?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with you on that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the list?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, it is.

Mr. BALL. And where was that made?

Mr. STOVALL. That was made down at the city hall in the Homicide Bureau.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as "Stovall Exhibit B."

(Instrument referred to marked as "Stovall Exhibit B," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to be Oswald in the photograph?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; Rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, "Look at this." At the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots and the negatives to me.

Mr. BALL. Did they show you what appeared to be Oswald in the snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He had the negatives and snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he showed Oswald--what was significant about the photograph?

Mr. STOVALL. He was in a standing position just outside of the house holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand.

Mr. BALL. Did you take the snapshots?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, we took the snapshots.

Mr. BALL. And the negatives?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where are they listed on this exhibit--this Exhibit B?

Mr. STOVALL. I believe we listed them where we've got "Miscellaneous photographs and maps." There were several other photographs that we took when we were there.

Mr. BALL. They were in the garage, were they?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were they in the garage that you saw?

Mr. STOVALL. As well as I remember, they were in a brown cardboard box about, I guess, 2 feet by a foot and a half or something like that.

Mr. BALL. What was in the box with them?

Mr. STOVALL. There were, as well as I remember, a few books in there and letters and papers and photographs.

Mr. BALL. Now, you also found some bags, didn't you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some seabags.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. STOVALL. One of them was--I think both of them were a kind of an Army color--olive drab, whatever you call it.

Mr. BALL. And suitcases?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and I think a brown one.

Mr. BALL. Made out of what kind of material?

Mr. STOVALL. It appeared to be a leather material.

Mr. BALL. You said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown, is there any other color?

Mr. STOVALL. There was, as well as I remember--one of the brown ones was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as I remember that thing. It was partially torn, I mean, it had been well used and was coming apart.

Mr. BALL. And were there three?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what was the color of the third one?

Mr. STOVALL. I believe it was brown also.

Mr. BALL. Leather or paper or cardboard?

Mr. STOVALL. No; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or cardboard.

Mr. BALL. Now, you also found a magazine advertisement from Klein's Department Store, Klein's in Chicago?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs.

Mr. BALL. Just for illustration of your testimony, I would like to have marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of November 22, 1963, as your Exhibit No. C, and your report of the search of November 23, 1963, of the Paine residence as Exhibit No. D.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Stovall Exhibits C and D," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you find there?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't recall just what kind of maps they were.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. STOVALL. Must have been around 4:30 or 5, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine say anything more to you than you have already told us?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; as well as I recall, Mr. and Mrs. Paine were both gone from the house when we left there.

Mr. BALL. You took these materials with you that you have on this list?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You took them down to where?

Mr. STOVALL. We took them down to our office.

Mr. BALL. And you made a list of them that day, did you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you do anything else on this investigation?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir; that's all I can recall that I did on the investigation. I might add, there was--well, you have that on the list--some property.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. STOVALL. When we took this identification off of Lee Oswald that had this selective service card, the name Hidell, and he also had his own identification--at the time we were in the garage we found some negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where the name would have been typed in--there was some stuff on the back of the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that he had on him at the time, on the 22d of November, that had the name of "A. Hidell" typed in on it.

Mr. BALL. Did you appear at any showups of Oswald?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you at any of the interrogations of Oswald?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, I think that's all, Mr. Stovall. Thank you very much for coming over here.

Mr. STOVALL. Okay, thank you.

Mr. DAVIS. Thank you so much, Mr. Stovall, we appreciate your coming by.

Mr. STOVALL. I hope it was of some help to you.

TESTIMONY OF WALTER EUGENE POTTS

The testimony of Walter Eugene Potts was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. POTTS. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. POTTS. Walter Eugene Potts.

Mr. BALL. What business or occupation are you in?

Mr. POTTS. I am a detective with the police department, homicide, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the police department in Dallas?

Mr. POTTS. Since October 21, 1947.

Mr. BALL. And how long have you been with the homicide department?

Mr. POTTS. June 6, 1956.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about where you were born and where you were educated and what you have done since then?

Mr. POTTS. I was born at Sherman, Tex., April 28, 1922, and I came to Dallas in 1924 and was raised here in Dallas, attended public schools in Dallas, graduated from this Dallas--it's Crozier Tech now, but it was Dallas Technical High School right here on Bryan Street in 1941, and when I graduated I went to work for Southwest Airmotive at Love Field, and I worked for Taycee Badgett Aviation in 1942 and 1943, in Shreveport, La., and I took an aviation cadet mental and physical down there and came back to Dallas to be inducted into the service, and I worked for Lockheed at Love Field before I went in the service, and I went in the service in July 1945. I was discharged in January 1947. I was in the 796th Military Police Battalion in Vienna, Austria, and also the 505th there.

I came back and went to work for the Taylor Publishing Co. just before I went to work for the police department. My mother and father, they still live here out on Brookfield and my sister lives here. I am one of the very few native boys in this police department down here--that's raised right here.

Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, you had the day off, didn't you?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that was my day off.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear on the radio the President had been shot?

Mr. POTTS. Well, my wife and I had gone to the cleaners up there at Jim Miller and Military, and I suppose it was around 12:30 or a quarter to 1--around 1 o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and Mr. Wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "Have you heard about the President getting shot?"

You know, I thought he was joking and I thought he was kidding and I turned on my car radio and there it was.

We went on back home and I called the office immediately and talked to Detective Baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all the men back and I started to get dressed--get ready, and I told him I would be there as soon as I could, and I got dressed and got there within the hour, which was around 2 or before.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you first got there?

Mr. POTTS. When I was walking across the street there, I parked my car over at the Scottish Rite parking lot there and it's the Masonic lot and when I come across the street there at Commerce and Harwood this officer on the corner there said, "Did you hear about Tippit getting killed?" I said, "No; I didn't hear about that." He said, "Yes; I understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in Oak Cliff." That's the first I had heard about Tippit and when I got to the office, I walked in and Baker told me, "We have some people here from the Texas School Book Depository--there are four or five of them back there," and he said, "Would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" And I said, "Sure," and I went back there and took one from this Arce, and I was in the process of taking one from this Jack Dougherty when I heard some officers coming in the door there, and I heard one of them say, "We've got the man that killed Tippit."

So, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and I was sitting back there with Dougherty and Arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. As you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this Mr. Dougherty looked at me and he said, "I know that man."

He said, "He works down there in that building--the Texas School Book Depository Building." He said, "I don't know his name, but I know him." So did Arce--he said, "Yes, he works down there."

So, I went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people and we got them notarized.

Mr. BALL. You mean Arce and Dougherty?

Mr. POTTS. Arce and Dougherty. There were some more officers back there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other people--I don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, Bill Senkel, and F. M. Turner--we work a three-man squad, and Bill came around and he talked to Captain Fritz, and he said "Come on, let's go. We are going out to 1026 North Beckley."

He came around and told me, he said--he asked me if I had finished taking the affidavits, and I told him, "Yes," and he said, "Captain Fritz wants you and I to go out to Oswald's or Hidell's or Oswald's room."

On his person--he must have had--he did have identification with the name Alex Hidell and Oswald--Lee Harvey Oswald, but Lt. E. L. Cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us and we went out there.

Mr. BALL. Before you went out there, did you get a search warrant?

Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't get a search warrant at that time. We went to the location and talked to the people there.

Mr. BALL. That's Lt. E. L. Cunningham?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. POTTS. B. L. Senkel.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. POTTS. And myself.

Mr. BALL. And you went out to where?

Mr. POTTS. 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you got there?

Mr. POTTS. We got there and we talked to this Mrs.--I believe her name was Johnson.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. A. C. Johnson?

Mr. POTTS. Mrs. Johnson and Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. Earlene Roberts?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and they didn't know a Lee Harvey Oswald or an Alex Hidell either one and they couldn't--they just didn't have any idea who we were talking about, so the television--it is a rooming house, and there was a television----

Mr. BALL. Did you check their registration books?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we looked at the registration book--Senkel, I think, or Cunningham--well, we all looked through the registration book and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the living room. There's an area there where the roomers sit, I guess it's the living quarters--it flashed Oswald's picture on there and one of the women, either Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Johnson said, "That's the man that lives here. That's Mr. Lee--O. H. Lee." She said, "His room is right here right off of the living room."

Senkel or Cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that Turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until 4:30 or 5 that afternoon. We got out there about 3.

Mr. BALL. You waited there in the home?

Mr. POTTS. We waited there in the living quarters.

Mr. BALL. You did not go into the small room that had been rented by Lee?

Mr. POTTS. No; we didn't--we didn't search the room at all until we got the warrant.

Mr. BALL. Who brought the warrant out?

Mr. POTTS. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. BALL. The judge issued it, but who brought it out?

Mr. POTTS. Well, F. M. Turner and H. M. Moore was with him, and Judge David Johnston was there, and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander.

Mr. BALL. Did David L. Johnston go too, the justice of the peace?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, the judge was there in person.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and also Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander--they all came in the same car.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. POTTS. Well, after we showed Johnson the search warrant, I think it was Johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, and we took everything in there that we could find.

Mr. BALL. Would you describe the room, the appearance of the room?

Mr. POTTS. Well, the room was off--as you walk into the house, the living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off to the left of the living room. It was a real small room. It was, oh, I don't suppose it was 6 to 8 feet wide, and maybe 10 feet long. It was a real small room. It had a half bed in there and back in the back there it had a shelf--some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff back there in.

Mr. BALL. How was it furnished?

Mr. POTTS. Well, it just had the bed in there, and I believe, if remember, it might have had a chair--I'm not sure. So, Moore, Senkel, Cunningham and all of us--we searched that room--we took everything in there all but--there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and stuff, but everything in there--we took everything in there we could find. We even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put stuff in it. He had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a lot of stuff in it.

Mr. BALL. What color was the bag?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall the color of that bag.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring it with you--you picked it up too, and brought it in, too?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could find.

Mr. BALL. Were there curtains on the windows?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. BALL. Hanging on rods?

Mr. POTTS. If I remember correctly, I think there was curtains on the walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything--and looked behind the blinds and everything.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anything of a leather holster?

Mr. POTTS. A .38 leather holster--I have a list there of all the stuff we brought out of there.

Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; you sure can. This is a list Mr. Turner and Mr. Moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office.

Mr. BALL. You brought the stuff into the office?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We'll mark this as "Potts Exhibit A."

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. POTTS. You can have that if you would like.

Mr. BALL. This will be two exhibits--A-1 and A-2.

(The instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits A-l and A-2," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Did you ask Mrs. Johnson whether or not she had ever seen the holster before?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall asking her that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask Mrs. Earlene Roberts if she had seen the holster before?

Mr. POTTS. I don't recall talking to her about that. They weren't too familiar with what was in that room. I didn't talk to them too much about it.

Mr. BALL. You recovered a Dallas city map, too, didn't you?

Mr. POTTS. Yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil.

Mr. BALL. All right, go ahead.

Mr. POTTS. There was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it and addresses in it and a lot of Russian writing--and it had a diagram of the Red Square in there, I suppose, that's what it looked like to me. I suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in Russian and about half of that book I didn't understand.

Mr. BALL. You brought all of this property to the city hall?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you made the inventory we have had marked here as "Exhibits A-1 and A-2"?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; Mr. Moore and Turner and I compiled it.

Mr. BALL. Now, on that same day, did you do anything more?

Mr. POTTS. Let me say--later on in the afternoon--we worked the rest of that night, up until--I don't recall what time I did leave there--it was pretty late.

Mr. BALL. I have here a document which has been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 426." Did you find this document at the 1026 North Beckley address that day, do you remember?

Mr. POTTS. I recall seeing this; yes, I do. I don't know which one of the officers picked it up.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember where it was?

Mr. POTTS. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do--you don't know where it was kept?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. But was it brought from the room?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; it was--here's my initial in the right hand corner, and here is Mr. Moore's.

Mr. BALL. What does that initial mean?

Mr. POTTS. That's my initial, "W. E. P."

Mr. BALL. And there is "11-22-63"--what does that mean?

Mr. POTTS. That means--we initial all of the evidence we bring out of there. At the time--this was going to court, and if this was brought out in court that would be my initials right there--I recovered this.

Mr. BALL. Did you initial it right there in the room?

Mr. POTTS. We initialed it after we brought it to the station.

Mr. BALL. These are the initials of the men who were there with you?

Mr. POTTS. That's H. M. Moore and I guess it's F. M. Turner--"F. M. T."--that's my partner. Yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you, on the 23d of November, take part in the investigation of either the death of Oswald or the shooting of the President?

Mr. POTTS. Well, I reported to work at 10 o'clock in the morning and we worked until midnight that night--it was mostly telephone conversations--they had to put extra phones in our office. We were swamped--I talked to people from England, Canada, Peru--all over was just calling in there--just a continual call--call--call--and it kept most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any showup of Oswald?

Mr. POTTS. I believe I did--was that the 23d--at 2:15 that afternoon on the 23d, I was in on one.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. POTTS. Mr. Senkel and I went to the jail and stood by the jail elevator and waited until the showup came down, and I was thinking there was M. G. Hall and Charlie Brown and a jailer or two that brought that showup down. They were all handcuffed together, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Who is M. G. Hall?

Mr. POTTS. He is a detective in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And who is Charlie Brown?

Mr. POTTS. Charlie Brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. Now, I might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the two that showed up then, but they might not have been.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the men who were to be in the showup?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; all I did was just to go down to the jail door and walk with the showup out to the stage, and I stood out on the stage while the showup was conducted.

Mr. BALL. How was it conducted? Describe it.

Mr. POTTS. Well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup stage. Now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black nylon screen. There's a light set at an angle on the stage where the person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. They brought them out handcuffed together and this John Thurman Horne went in first--no, that's wrong--Lujan went on first, because he would be No. 4. You see, they're got numbers above the--above them higher up there.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan, and then Oswald was No. 3, Knapp No. 2.

Mr. BALL. What is Knapp's full name?

Mr. POTTS. David Knapp and John Thurman Horne was No. 1.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then, after they went out on the stage?

Mr. POTTS. Well, Detective Leavelle--now, I don't know who the witness was that they were showing them to--the showup to.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Leavelle?

Mr. POTTS. I heard Leavelle question each one of the men. There is a black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one step forward and they have a microphone above, and I don't recall exactly what he asked them--It was just to get them to talk and identify themselves. We conduct them different--sometimes we ask them their names and their address and their occupation.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask the questions?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask the questions?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; he was up there.

Mr. BALL. And, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; to the men on the stage.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear them?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I heard them answer.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald speak up or not?

Mr. POTTS. Well, he was complaining all during the showup. He had on a T-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on T-shirts, and he was complaining, "Well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and I've got a T-shirt on"--he was very belligerent about the showup. He wouldn't cooperate in any way. He was just making all kinds of commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody.

Mr. BALL. What kind of commotion was he making?

Mr. POTTS. Well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in a T-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a T-shirt and I've got on a T-shirt, this is unfair," and all that--just generally talking and after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the elevator--took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with the show.

Mr. BALL. That's all you had to do with it?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were the appearances of the four men who came out?

Mr. POTTS. They were similar in size--I didn't pick them--I don't know who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the ages are a little different here.

Mr. BALL. What ages were they, do you know?

Mr. POTTS. Well, Horne was 17--he was born November 6, 1945, I believe that's right.

Mr. BALL. John Thurman Horne?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; and this David Edmond Knapp, he was 18. He was born October 22, 1945, and this Daniel Lujan, he was 26, and he was born February 15, 1937.

Mr. BALL. And do you have the addresses of these three men?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I do--now, I got the addresses off of--out of our records bureau--off of their arrest cards. I don't know whether they gave a fictitious address or not.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. POTTS. Now, Horne is 2942 Ann Arbor.

Mr. BALL. 2942 Ann Arbor?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that's Dallas?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; that's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. And what was he charged with--why was he in jail?

Mr. POTTS. Traffic tickets--he had a number of traffic tickets.

Mr. BALL. Traffic tickets?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; he had a stack of them--all on the same arrest date.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. POTTS. Yes--red lights and so on.

Mr. BALL. And what about David Knapp, what was he in for?

Mr. POTTS. He was in for investigation of theft and he lived at 2922 Alabama. That's in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. And he was in for investigation?

Mr. POTTS. Investigation of burglary and theft.

Mr. BALL. Was he convicted?

Mr. POTTS. Well, I don't know anything about that.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he is now?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I have never seen those men since.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he was convicted or not?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. What about Lujan?

Mr. POTTS. Daniel Lujan--[spelling] L-u-j-a-n, I guess that's the way you pronounce it. He was born February 15, 1937, and gave the address of 1804 Lear [spelling] L-e-a-r Street, and he was in for investigation of violation of State narcotic laws.

Mr. BALL. And was he convicted, or do you know?

Mr. POTTS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted of a felony?

Mr. POTTS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. You know nothing about that?

Mr. POTTS. I know nothing about them at all. In fact, that's the first time I have ever seen them and I suppose the last time.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you take any further part in the investigation?

Mr. POTTS. That Presidential assassination--I think that's about all I done on that.

Mr. BALL. I think that one day you went out and talked to Mr. Fischer?

Mr. POTTS. Yes; I talked to a boy named Fischer--on the 25th of November. Of course, you know I was off duty on the Ruby thing.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I know that.

Mr. POTTS. I was at home then and I was sitting there and my wife said, "They are going to televise this transfer of Oswald." I said, "I've seen enough of that and I don't want to look at it." And she said, "We need milk and bread for lunch," and so I got up and got in the car and went to Safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a woman--well, it looked like a woman--came out and said, "Oswald has just been shot." Well, I thought that was a big joke, too, and went back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. I came on back on duty that day.

Mr. BALL. When you went out to see Mr. Fischer----

Mr. POTTS. Now, Mr. Turner had this information about this Fischer man. He and Mr. Senkel--they were in the motorcade that day. In fact, they were in the lead car.

Mr. BALL. Senkel was?

Mr. POTTS. Senkel, Turner, and Chief Lumpkin were in the lead car in the motorcade, and I think Turner had gotten this information about this Fischer fellow. I had never heard about him until Turner asked me, he said, "Let's go out and talk to this Mr. Fischer." He said, "He is supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know--we took a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald out there to see if he could identify him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on the 25th of November with Lee Harvey Oswald's picture to 4007 Flamingo Street in Mesquite. That's where this Ronald Fischer lives, and he works for the county auditor's office down there. He was working that day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "I can't say for sure that's the man that I saw in that window up there, but it looks like him." He said he saw him up there just a few minutes before he heard the shots fired.

Mr. BALL. Now, you made written reports of these investigations you are testifying about?

Mr. POTTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have refreshed your memory from them--from your own handwritten notes?

Mr. POTTS. That's right--I have.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have marked your report on your officer's duty on Friday, November 22, and also on the 23d and 25th of November, being two sheets, numbered 230 and 231, as the next exhibit, and page 3 of your report, being No. 232, being a report of your participation in the showup on November 23, 1963, at 2:15--as the next exhibit.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "Potts Exhibits B and C," respectively, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I think that's all and I do want to thank you very much.

Mr. POTTS. You are certainly welcome.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission. You can tell me what you want to do.

Mr. POTTS. Oh, I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you to sign.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN P. ADAMCIK

The testimony of John P. Adamcik was taken at 10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name?

Mr. ADAMCIK. John P. Adamcik.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I live right now at 4621 Samuell Boulevard, apartment 166.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is over in the eastern part of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I am 26.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Dallas?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to high school?

Mr. ADAMCIK. LaGrange, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. LaGrange High School?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I worked there in LaGrange for a short period of time, and came to Dallas and worked for Temco Aircraft Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was an assembler.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Then I went in the Marine Corps for a short period of time.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was in there approximately 2 months, got out on a hardship discharge.

Mr. BELIN. You mean family?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I got an honorable discharge--hardship discharge.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I went home and assisted the family, because my father was injured. That was the reason I got the discharge.

And I don't know, I got everybody going in shape which would be, I think it was probably around a year, and I came back to Dallas and got on the police department.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been in the police department ever since?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Every since, except I took another 6-month leave of absence and I spent 6 months on active duty with the U.S. Army Reserves. After the hardship ended, I went back in the Army for 6 months.

Mr. BELIN. Your position with the Dallas Police Department is now what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. ADAMCIK. One-month-old baby.

Mr. BELIN. A month old baby. Boy or girl?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Boy.

Mr. BELIN. You must be pretty proud?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is his name?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Mark Allen.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife taking good care of that baby?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, first I want to talk about November 22, 1963. Were you on duty on that date?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; I wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this.

Mr. BELIN. Not at the time of the assassination?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. You were off duty?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was at home, off duty.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get on duty that day?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was supposed to go on at 3. However, when I heard of the assassination--I was supposed to go to court at 2 o'clock, and I reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so I immediately reported to my office, which was about 2 or so.

Mr. BELIN. You were at the office the rest of the afternoon?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir. I stayed at the office a short period of time. I wasn't there over an hour when Oswald was brought in by the arresting officers and we were asked--Detectives Stovall and Rose and myself were asked by Captain Fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in Irving, to the Paine residence.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald give them that address?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. I don't recall whether he gave them the address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification.

Mr. BELIN. What was the address?

Mr. ADAMCIK. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving. I don't have any idea how that came about at all. All I remember is that we were told to go to this address. I don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite name. We were told to go to this address, that this was the address he had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we were told.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was this?

Mr. ADAMCIK. This was approximately 2:30. Could I use my report?

Mr. BELIN. Sure. You take your report out and refresh your recollection.

Mr. ADAMCIK. I have it on here, the times mainly. This would be approximately 2:30.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you have a search warrant when you went out there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No, sir; we did not.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you didn't?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. We didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly going over to see who was there.

We decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with these people or with Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you go with?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I went with Detectives Rose and Stovall, and we were met by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because being out of the city limits of Dallas, we had three county officers go along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took us half an hour to get there. I would say it would be approximately 3 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited a few minutes for the county officers to get there, and when they got there we came outside, and I went with one of the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and one of the county officers and Detectives Rose and Stovall went to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We waited until Detectives Rose and Stovall and the county officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe 3 or 4 minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and opened it up and asked us to come in.

Mr. BELIN. Who asked you to come in?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Detectives Rose and Stovall, plus--because Mrs. Paine was in the house at the time standing next to them.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we started looking around the house. I think Detectives Rose and Stovall handled most of the interrogation. They asked the questions of Mrs. Paine, and Mrs. Oswald, after we found out who they were--and I didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, I just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around.

We asked them where Mr. Oswald was, and various things, and we looked around.

Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Oswald say about whether or not you could see her room?

Mr. ADAMCIK. She never did say anything at all. In fact, she showed us where the room was and showed us several things in the room.

Mr. BELIN. What did Mrs. Paine do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. She didn't object at all. They were really very cooperative.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the interrogation was? Who said what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall. I assume it was, you know, they asked her who she was.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone ask when was the last time they saw Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes; I heard it asked.

Mr. BELIN. What was the answer given, if you remember?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did they take you out to the garage?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not me. They took two of--some of the officers. I think it was Detectives Stovall and Rose, to the garage. I think it was through Mrs. Oswald that she went ahead and told Mrs. Paine something, and Mrs. Paine drew their attention to the garage.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about a rifle?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear it. I wasn't present when they went in the garage at all.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we called, or one of our men called in the office, I didn't, and asked them what they should do. And of course they told them to bring the people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. And we told them about it and they agreed that they would go. And of course our problem was the children. There was some children, both of Mrs. Oswald's children were there, and I don't remember, I believe Mrs. Paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if I remember correctly, after we were there a while, Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband came in. We have it here someplace what time it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what Michael Paine said when he came in?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes. He came in about 3:45 and told his wife that he heard the President was shot and he came over to see whether he could help, and they were surprised.

Mr. BELIN. When he said he heard the President was shot and he came over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the President was shot?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know. Apparently in the affidavit, I was present.

Later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the President was shot was that Oswald could have been the one that done it, when he found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody would be over there questioning them.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we went through the house, if I remember correctly, and I believe the other detectives found some property. I know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they saw the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't there. I saw the blanket later.

Mr. BELIN. Where was it when you first saw it?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I believe they took it in the house. I am pretty sure.

Mr. BELIN. Had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; they had a string still tied around it. Apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut.

Mr. BELIN. One of the strings was cut?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who cut it, do you know?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Had it been cut by an officer of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it definitely wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Definitely wasn't. As far as I know, it wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. How was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It appeared to be 4 or 5 feet, maybe.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything in the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not that I could see.

Mr. BELIN. Was the blanket stiff or limp?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. Just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. Just normal.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone carrying the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you lift the blanket up?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I never did lift the blanket up.

Mr. BELIN. What happened after it was brought inside?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall then at all. I left the house after awhile and went with, I believe it was, Mrs. Paine. I went with her to one of the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children there. I left and went with her.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Coming back, Mrs. Frazier, I believe it was, drove up to the house as I was coming back with--no, it was Mrs. Bill Randle. She (Mrs. Randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so I asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen Lee Oswald, and she did tell me that Lee Oswald rode to work with her brother, which is Wesley Frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning.

She told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw Lee Harvey Oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the Paine house to Wesley's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say how he was carrying the package?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she didn't. I think we got an affidavit. In fact, I know we did, but I didn't take it.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say about how long the package was?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. That is all I remember her saying.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on there? Did she say anything that it was unusual for Oswald to be home at all during the week?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; she did say that. That Oswald usually spent the weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a Thursday night and go to work with him on Friday.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember offhand?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe I do.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. By then we went ahead and took these people and put them in a car. I think Mrs. Oswald took both the children. Mrs. Paine got a neighbor to keep her children and Mrs. Oswald and her two children were put in our car, the city police car, and Mrs. Paine also went with us, and Michael Paine, Mrs. Paine's husband, went with the county officer, and we proceeded to go to the city police station.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited a pretty good while.

By this time it was approximately 6 p.m., and I think they were trying to get an interpreter and question Mrs. Oswald. That was the reason for the wait.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ADAMCIK. Oh, yes, after talking to this Mrs. Randle, we wanted to talk to Wesley Frazier, and she said that he was at Parkland visiting his sick daddy.

So when we got back to the station, we checked with Parkland and couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the clinic there in Irving, I believe it was, Irving Professional Center, and found out that he was there. The nurse checked the room, and he was there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from him or question him.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ADAMCIK. However, I didn't go back over there and get him.

Mr. BELIN. When you got down to the station, you were with Mrs. Paine?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. When we got to the station, there was Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Oswald and her two children, and Michael Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Oswald questioned at all or not?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Mrs. Oswald, yes; she was. She was questioned that same evening.

Mr. BELIN. What did she say?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an affidavit was gotten from her also. I know she was showed the rifle in my presence.

I was there with Captain Fritz and myself and Detective Senkel, and the rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and I remember her saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that Lee Oswald, that was in the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually.

Mr. BELIN. When you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the blanket was there?

Was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers, apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember exactly how long. I don't remember when she said the last time was she saw it.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I can't remember. I took an affidavit, and I know I questioned her about the rifle, and I can't remember whether she ever said.

I would have to see the affidavit. I don't have a copy. I don't believe she said she seen the rifle. I believe that she said she saw the blanket there, but I am sure that that would be in the affidavit. That would be in the affidavit, though.

Mr. BELIN. Now anything else happen there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; after Mrs. Oswald was questioned, I took an affidavit from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I think this other detective, I think Senkel, probably took one from Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. You mean Marina, Lee Oswald's wife?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, the wife.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Shortly after we got through with him, with this, I believe Lee Oswald's mother came in. I don't remember whether she had been in previous and was in some other office, but I know they brought her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got through, they were all sitting in the same room together, Mrs. Oswald, Lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and Mrs. Paine, and Michael Paine.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Oswald's mother say anything?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; she kind of didn't say anything definite. She kind of had the feeling--I don't know how to explain it--just like this, well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite understand it, or something. She didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. What about Lee Oswald's brother?

Mr. ADAMCIK. To me, he was in there, too. I didn't break that up. He seemed rather calm to me. He was real calm and real collected.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not to me, not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I was asked by Captain Fritz to take these people home, and he wanted me to take someone with me, and I took Lieutenant McKinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. I used his car, and he went along with me to take these people home.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did they say anything more on the way home about the incident or not?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe the only thing I definitely remember is that Marina Oswald kept saying, telling Mrs. Oswald that this was her home, and she still decided she would like to stay here. She didn't want to go back to Russia. I remember her saying that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right. Mrs. Paine was there, and she could interpret.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ADAMCIK. She wasn't real good, but she could speak enough Russian to interpret a little bit.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We took them to Irving, to the Paine house. At this time I believe Mrs. Oswald was the only other person that we took back there to the Paine house that didn't come down to the station with us originally.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the mother?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; the mother, she went back with us.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, this was fairly late. I guess it was around 10 o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around 9 when we started taking them to Irving, and got back about 10.

We just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the office?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Went to the office and I stayed there a while, and I guess it was around 11 o'clock, I mean the interrogation room in the captain's office, and spent about 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you go in the interrogation room?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, at that time I think somebody else just finished talking to him, and I think the captain had to go see somebody or something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to Oswald.

I think Detective Montgomery went in there with me, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the only two in there at that time?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; I think so. The ID Bureau came in there and either fingerprinted him or done something. When they came in there, I left. It was just a short period of time.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that took place there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; except I asked him whether he drove a car. I did ask him that. And I remember him saying something that he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. That he did or did not?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That he did not. And I asked him how long he was in Russia and whether he liked it there, and I remember him telling me how long he was there. I think it was two years, or something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it okay, and that is just about it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about the assassination at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We did.

Mr. BELIN. Like what kind of questions?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Like where were you at the time this assassination occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he just keep quiet?

Mr. ADAMCIK. He just sat there and stared straight ahead.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't talk at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney while you were there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ask him any questions about Officer Tippit's murder?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't believe that I did.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else there that did?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't hear anybody.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I just stayed at the office until about 2 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BELIN. Ever see Oswald again?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I seen him being led out of the office from the interview, I believe. I didn't go down there.

Mr. BELIN. What interview?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I think they had--I don't know whether it was an interview or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room.

Mr. BELIN. When would that have been?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It would have been about midnight.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if Oswald requested it or if someone else did?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I stayed in the office after Captain Fritz and the other men came back. He told us to go on home and come back the next morning about 10 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, I went home, and about 10 or shortly before 10, I came in, and Captain Fritz asked Detectives Rose and Stovall; and Detective Moore--at this time he was a regular partner of Rose and Stovall--asked me, since I was there the previous day, to go along back to Mrs. Paine's house for a little more complete search.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant at this time?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from Judge Joe B. Brown, Jr., over in Oak Cliff, and came by his house and picked up the search warrant.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. We got out to the house. I didn't have a search warrant. One of the other detectives did. They told us to come on in, and they were there.

I remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted to.

Mr. BELIN. The previous day had you taken anything out of the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did any of the officers take anything out of the house?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; some of the other officers did.

Mr. BELIN. What did they take?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't recall. I believe they took some camera equipment. It might have been a movie camera or projector. I didn't take anything. I know they took some items.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; there weren't too many items the first day.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second day?

Mr. ADAMCIK. The second day we made a pretty complete search. We went mainly in the garage. We had also an Irving police officer. It was, I think, Detective McCabe from the Irving police department. And we went through the house and garage.

Mr. BELIN. What did you take with you?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, we picked up--I got a list of it, also, which we turned over to the FBI, but we picked up items such as letters and pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find the picture of Oswald with the rifle?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I didn't find it. It was found while I was back in the garage.

Mr. BELIN. That was found in the garage?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Any comments about that at all?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it, and everybody said, "That looks like the rifle that was used in the assassination."

Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No. At that time they weren't there. They were grocery shopping.

Mr. BELIN. Did you show the picture to them later on?

Mr. ADAMCIK. The picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the scene, and it was shown at the office, I understand.

Mr. BELIN. You weren't there when it was done?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Well, no other than--I didn't even begin to tell you what all we found. It was books and pictures and they found some of his stuff from the Marine Corps when he was in the Marine Corps, and a lot of Russian, I think they were books on the Russian language, and some vaccination certificates and stuff like that.

A lot of stuff was written in Russian, and we didn't have any idea what it said. Even the letters, a lot of them were written in Russian.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I don't recall anything pertaining to the search at all. I know that everything we--at the time, that we felt it was important, as far as investigation of the murder of the President and Officer Tippit was concerned, we took with us. There might have been some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted, it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the murder.

Mr. BELIN. Was an inventory made of the items taken?

Mr. ADAMCIK. There was. Yes; there was, definitely.

Mr. BELIN. You put that on file with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ADAMCIK. There was an inventory made, and there was receipts for all the property, and it is itemized. Everything is itemized.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I know the search took a pretty good while. We didn't get back to the office until about 4 p.m., so I assume we got there probably around 11 or 11:30, and we stayed there 3 or 4 hours.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else at all that you can think of that is important?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't know who found it. It was either Stovall or Rose.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Adamcik, I will hand you what appears to be a document from the Dallas Police Department entitled, "Property clerk's invoice or receipt." It is an inventory. It commences with page No. 11177G through 11193G, and ask you to state if this appears to be a copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Let me see if I can see all these. Yes; it is.

Mr. BELIN. All right, rather than offer it in this deposition, I believe you said that--who was the senior officer out there among you, or wasn't there any?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; there was. I was not the senior officer conducting the search. Probably Detective Rose, although I believe Detective Moore might have been previous, but since Detective Rose was there the previous day, he was spokesman for the group.

Mr. BELIN. Did Stovall work more with you or with Rose?

Mr. ADAMCIK. With Rose.

Mr. BELIN. I believe Mr. Ball is about to take the deposition of R. S. Stovall, and I think what we will do is give this inventory to Mr. Ball and let him introduce it in that deposition.

Mr. ADAMCIK. That first day I couldn't tell you anything because I was out of the house trying to take care of the kids.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No. The only thing is, after we finished conducting the search and got back to the office, I remember the previous day we didn't take an affidavit from Michael Paine, so Detective Moore and myself went back to Irving--should be around 5 o'clock, and picked up Mr. Paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an affidavit from him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket?

Mr. ADAMCIK. He did. I was present when he said it, and it is in the affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in, or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped.

Mr. BELIN. Did he know that it contained a rifle?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I don't think so. But he said he had seen it several times previous to the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about why he came to his wife's residence that day of the assassination?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes, sir; he did. I brought that out in the affidavit, and I remember something about him saying when he heard that the President got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where Lee Oswald worked, and knowing his background, well, he said that Oswald's name came into his mind immediately.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say it came into his mind?

Mr. ADAMCIK. He said, knowing about his background and all--I remember just about what he said--that he knew that he would be asked to be considered a suspect, and--or that we would consider him a suspect, something. He didn't say who, but the way the situation was.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what it was in his background that would make him considered to be a suspect?

Mr. ADAMCIK. It is in the affidavit, and I can't remember what he said. Whether he said it was because he was in Russia at one time, or something about him being a Russian citizen, or whether it was because for some other reason.

Anyway, it is in the affidavit. I can't think exactly what he said. It is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his words. I can look at it.

Mr. BELIN. Here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by Michael Paine. He says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Right; he did say that.

Mr. BELIN. He says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a blanket, tied with a string. Is that what he said?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said.

Mr. BELIN. He said, "I picked it up to get it out of the way of the powersaw."

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting equipment. Is that what he said?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. He says later in the affidavit that he heard the President was shot while he was at work, is that correct?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. He said he heard the shots were from the Texas School Book Depository, and he said that he knew that Oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the President?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That is what he said.

Mr. BELIN. He says he wondered if he should call the FBI. Is that what he says in the affidavit?

Mr. ADAMCIK. That's right, exactly.

Mr. BELIN. He says he thought it unlikely that he shot the President. Did he say that he thought it was unlikely that Oswald shot the President?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes; he said that. And then he explained why he didn't call the FBI. He said he figured that--he did mention that the FBI knew about Oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would consider him a suspect without him having to call them.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why the FBI knew about Oswald?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, sir?

Mr. ADAMCIK. No; I believe that is it. After we picked him up and took this affidavit just shortly after, I went on home and that was the end of it, until Sunday. Sunday I was off, and everything happened down there, luckily.

Mr. BELIN. Luckily you were off?

Mr. ADAMCIK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming down here. You have an opportunity to either let the deposition go directly to Washington, or you can come back and read it and sign it. You can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it, whatever you want to do.

Mr. ADAMCIK. About how long would it be before it is ready?

Mr. BELIN. Several days. You want to sign, or just let her send it on to us?

Mr. ADAMCIK. I would kind of like to look at it.

Mr. BELIN. All right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can take a look at it.

Mr. ADAMCIK. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF HENRY M. MOORE

The testimony of Henry M. Moore was taken at 11 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and I will swear you here.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOORE. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Moore, would you please state your name for the reporter.

Mr. MOORE. Henry M. Moore.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Moore?

Mr. MOORE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Texas?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. MOORE. I am 39.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. MOORE. Five children.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife has her hands full with them?

Mr. MOORE. Sure does.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school here in Dallas?

Mr. MOORE. No; Ennis, Ennis High School.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. MOORE. That is south of Dallas bout 35 miles.

Mr. BELIN. Were you a graduate from high school?

Mr. MOORE. No, I didn't graduate.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through high school?

Mr. MOORE. Eighth.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Went in the Service.

Mr. BELIN. Into the Armed Services?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Army or Navy?

Mr. MOORE. Paratroopers; Army.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Paratroopers?

Mr. MOORE. Three years.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get out?

Mr. MOORE. January 11, 1946.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that day?

Mr. MOORE. Very well.

Mr. BELIN. Honorably discharged?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. MOORE. Oh, I fooled around on the farm about 3 years, and then I came to Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Had you worked on the farm before you went into the Service?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got out of school and the time you went into the Service?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. You went direct from school to the Service?

Mr. MOORE. Shortly afterward.

Mr. BELIN. You were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Came to Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. MOORE. January 31, 1949.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your position there right now?

Mr. MOORE. Detective.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22 around noon?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. When were you to report to work that day?

Mr. MOORE. Four; 4:00 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. When did you report for work that day?

Mr. MOORE. Shortly after the assassination, soon as I could get to town.

Mr. BELIN. How shortly after?

Mr. MOORE. 1 or 1:30, somewhere around there. Maybe 2.

Mr. BELIN. You reported down at the main police station?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. MOORE. Well, I helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, I don't know, until the time I went out to North Beckley to search Oswald's room.

Mr. BELIN. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe that is right.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that?

Mr. MOORE. I am going to guess around 6 or so in the evening. The notes may show a little closer time.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who got it?

Mr. MOORE. The Judge issued it. Judge David Johnston.

Mr. BELIN. Did he go with you there, too?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who else went?

Mr. MOORE. District Attorney Bill Alexander and Detective F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. You went to that address, and did the landlady--let me ask you this. You got to the door at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; we met some other officers there. They were already inside.

Mr. BELIN. At that time they found out that Lee Harvey Oswald lived there?

Mr. MOORE. I believe they had; yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. MOORE. We searched his room.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Brought everything in the room to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. You made a list of what you found there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything in particular that you found there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; one map, city of Dallas map, and it had several marks located on it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. MOORE. Personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. MOORE. A holster.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of gun?

Mr. MOORE. .38 pistol, I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find the gun itself, or just the holster?

Mr. MOORE. No; just the holster. I believe they had recovered the gun from him earlier in the day.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else there that you can establish?

Mr. MOORE. I believe I mentioned his clothing, personal effects?

Mr. BELIN. Some letters?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I'm sure there were some letters and papers.

Mr. BELIN. Pamphlets?

Mr. MOORE. I am not sure. I believe there was some. I am not sure, though.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. By the way, how many times did you go to 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. I only went one time.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know?

Mr. MOORE. I don't know. I don't remember. I can't see any point. We brought everything that was in the room.

Mr. BELIN. You brought everything there? I am handing you pages marked on this police department, "City of Dallas property clerk's invoice or receipt No. 11194G through 11199G." Does this appear to be a copy of the inventory here?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I believe it is.

Mr. BELIN. We will call that Moore Deposition Exhibit No. 1. I might state for the record that this appears to be--what was the last number I gave there--it looks like 11200G, and I might state for the record that these appear also in the Dallas police report file which is known in the President's Commission files as document 81B, pages 280-286, inclusive.

I note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated November 23, 1963, which is 1 day later than the date that you made the search. Do you have any explanation for that?

Mr. MOORE. No; I wouldn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the original search warrant at all, or not?

Mr. MOORE. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. I also notice there appears to be included in these articles a driver's handbook of the State of Texas. Do you remember whether or not that was there?

Mr. MOORE. It would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on this list, to the best of your knowledge, that was not picked up out at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. I noticed that there is an envelope which is marked "Envelope containing receipt for post office box 6225, Dallas, Tex., dated November 11, 1963, for the period ending December 31, 1963." Do you have any independent recollection of that being there?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from there?

Mr. MOORE. Right.

Mr. BELIN. I also note that one of the items appears to be a World Health Organization vaccination card, bearing the name of Lee Oswald, with the name of the vaccinator as A. J. Hidell, post office box 30016, New Orleans, La., with the date stamped June 8, 1963.

Do you remember anything like that, one of those health cards?

Mr. MOORE. Not specifically no.

Mr. BELIN. And it says that there is a passport there. Do you remember that at all?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You remember specifically the passport?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is an application for a Texas driver's license, which appears as No. 450. Do you remember that at all?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; I do, since I have read the list. I remember the driver's license application.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Commission Exhibit 426, and ask you to state if you know what that is?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. MOORE. Application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. BELIN. You picked it up there or someone with you picked it up on that day that you searched the residence at Beckley?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; you find my initials on the back of it, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Your initials, it says, HMM, 11-12-63. Those are your initials?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; and date.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who FMT is, or are those initials there?

Mr. MOORE. I believe that will be F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. F. M. Turner?

Mr. MOORE. I believe. That is the only one I could think of it would be.

Mr. BELIN. All right. About how long did you stay out there?

Mr. MOORE. Hour and a half, possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. We drove back to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Now I assume then that you went through the property and marked it, and what have you. This took a little bit of time?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that day that has anything else to do with the assassination of the President or the Tippit murder that you can think of offhand?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. The next day you reported for work about when?

Mr. MOORE. As soon after the Oswald shooting in the basement, as soon as I could get there. I live out of town.

Mr. BELIN. Wait, that is when Oswald was shot. I am not talking about Sunday. I am talking about Saturday. When did you search the Beckley premises? On Friday, Saturday, or Sunday?

Mr. MOORE. Saturday. No; we searched it on Friday. Irving on Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. Irving on Saturday. When did you get to work on Saturday?

Mr. MOORE. I believe I came in around 10 that morning.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you worked in the office for a while?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did offhand?

Mr. MOORE. Answered the phone.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. I went out with Stovall and Rose and Adamcik to Irving later in the day to search the residence at Irving.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving?

Mr. MOORE. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Had a search warrant for that?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You found several items there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Made a list of those similar to this other list?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Do you remember any conversation you had out there with Mrs. Paine or Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, or anyone else?

Mr. MOORE. When we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave. We had an Irving officer with us.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you to go ahead?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. They said they would be back later, and I am not sure that they even returned before we left.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything particularly you found out there that stands out in your mind?

Mr. MOORE. Rose found the picture of Oswald holding the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did Rose show it to you out there?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, he did; at the time he found it.

Mr. BELIN. Were you near him when he found it.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far away was he from you?

Mr. MOORE. This was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close. Four men searching in that garage. I would say a matter of 3 or 4 feet.

Mr. BELIN. What did Rose say to you when he found it?

Mr. MOORE. He said, "Look at this." Of course we all looked and commented on it.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MOORE. Well, we continued our search, and after we had completed it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office.

Mr. BELIN. You made another list of it?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did that day?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you bring in Michael Paine for taking an affidavit from him, do you remember?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did. Mr. Adamcik and I went out and brought--we went back to the residence and brought him in later that day.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to him for a while?

Mr. MOORE. Yes, I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then you took the affidavit?

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then the next day was the 24th of November, Sunday. Were you on duty Sunday morning?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get to work on Sunday?

Mr. MOORE. Approximately 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. MOORE. I am sure I worked around the office until the time that Rose and I went to Ruby's apartment.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a search warrant for that?

Mr. MOORE. Yes. We went to Judge Joe B. Brown's residence and got the search warrant.

Mr. BELIN. Is it pretty much standard procedure at the Dallas Police Department to have a search warrant whenever you go to a person's premises?

Mr. MOORE. More or less.

Mr. BELIN. If you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure when you come to the door? Just what do you do?

Mr. MOORE. If we do not have a search warrant?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. MOORE. Well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. If we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or things of that nature, we would most probably have one. If we did not have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house anyway. And if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is important in any way that bears on this investigation?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister?

Mr. MOORE. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in Washington, or you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you have any preference or not?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it?

Mr. MOORE. What is the procedure?

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of your testimony here.

Mr. MOORE. I believe I would rather read it. No reflection on the reporter.

Mr. BELIN. Well, she is too nice a reporter. If you would like to read it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting in touch with you. Do we have your address, or can she contact you at the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; she can.

Mr. BELIN. You can come in and read it and she will send it to us.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We thank you very much for your splendid cooperation. Good-bye.

TESTIMONY OF F. M. TURNER

The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TURNER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mr. TURNER. F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner?

Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas?

Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service.

Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school?

Mr. TURNER. Finished.

Mr. BELIN. You finished high school?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Went in the service.

Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy?

Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy?

Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard.

Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's helper up around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked there until I came to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. TURNER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade?

Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was your position?

Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3 minutes in front of the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department.

Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police?

Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose name I do not remember.

Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President?

Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the motorcade?

Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They were about ready to leave, and we had a running start.

Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio?

Mr. TURNER. Two.

Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on?

Mr. TURNER. Channel 2.

Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2?

Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and forth.

Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or also on channel 2?

Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual motorcade, is that correct?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.

Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was going?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got to Main and Houston?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry.

Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of anything out of the ordinary?

Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately, at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity.

Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men to get over there and cover off the area around this building there until some investigators could get there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building. I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said cover off that area around the overpass, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car?

Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed?

Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car.

Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car?

Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately?

Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there?

Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar?

Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody?

Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it was, sitting there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they heard the shots came from?

Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did you talk to anyone?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly, and who else?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina.

Mr. BELIN. They all worked there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them?

Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a warehouse like.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from west of the building at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when the shots came?

Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in the warehouse.

Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him?

Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their building.

Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down the questioning?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes.

Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt, come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names.

Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see you have something about an Arnold Rowland there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did Rowland say, according to your notes?

Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the background of an open window two floors from the top.

Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top?

Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white man, and that he heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you remember?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window in any other windows there?

Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert Edwards?

Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.

Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them?

Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.

Mr. BELIN. What else did they say?

Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an affidavit taken from them at the time, too.

Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under Fischer or under Edwards, or both?

Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man?

Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Which one?

Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is.

Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer?

Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is.

Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures?

Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't remember positive.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man?

Mr. TURNER. None other than that.

Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the taking of various affidavits there?

Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and affidavits was taken from them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan?

Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan [spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to.

Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one.

Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was thinking of when you said Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an officer had been shot?

Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there.

Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in there?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case.

Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat being found on Industrial Street?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in the case, but it was placed in the property room.

Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere?

Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it had any bearing on the case or not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated?

Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the case.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could do down there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there."

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here a minute; 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way.

Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H. M. Moore?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this Lee Oswald had a room in it.

Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant, it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I don't remember the date on the warrant.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it that didn't belong with the house, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel?

Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three were there when we got there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the homicide and robbery office of the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of an inventory that you made?

Mr. TURNER. I think all of this----

Mr. BELIN. Just a second----

Mr. TURNER. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is the typed-up list of the copies that I made.

Mr. BELIN. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are these the things that you picked up?

Mr. TURNER. That is the same that was picked up there.

Mr. BELIN. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other things?

Mr. TURNER. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. This is your original?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; that is a carbon.

Mr. BELIN. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon?

Mr. TURNER. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made by one of the secretaries in the--our office.

Mr. BELIN. Who dictated it?

Mr. TURNER. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote part.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as "Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in evidence.

Do you need this back?

Mr. TURNER. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had in my locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made a more detailed description of it down at the property room.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley residence?

Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not?

Mr. TURNER. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or three people there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them before we did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; there was a holster found.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do after that?

Mr. TURNER. After we brought this stuff to the office?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. Well, by that time the phones and everything else were going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to work with that morning.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How do you go about doing it?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I just take the--let them tell the story, and write it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them sign it in front of a notary.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, or not?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up?

Mr. TURNER. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the secretary, she might have filed it somewhere.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you did that day?

Mr. TURNER. That is the only affidavit I can remember taking in this thing.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned?

Mr. TURNER. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about it.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at 1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell with you?

Mr. TURNER. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there was any of those there or not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall that.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember whether there was or was not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23?

Mr. TURNER. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know of, except I came to work, like I said.

They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots of us busy answering the phone.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation sessions with Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I never was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in just as they were winding up on him one night.

Mr. BELIN. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't know the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to Captain Fritz, and he already had the information.

Mr. BELIN. Anything--any other information come in on Saturday of any importance?

Mr. TURNER. Not that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you come to the police station?

Mr. TURNER. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to work about 1 o'clock or so.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stayed down there on Sunday?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; until in the night.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with regard to the assassination?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man at Irving that sighted in a rifle out there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who it was that called in?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man, Dial Ryder, that worked for him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk with either or both of them?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I have talked with both of them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener?

Mr. TURNER. I talked to Mr. Greener first.

Mr. BELIN. Did you later talk to Ryder or not?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder.

Mr. BELIN. What did Greener say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work for the man in the shop.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say, if anything?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he would check his files and records for names, and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't worked on it.

Mr. BELIN. What reason did he give you?

Mr. TURNER. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top.

Mr. BELIN. Were they ever talked to again about the thing?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that?

Mr. TURNER. About November 28.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Greener.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could figure out, his--this work probably came in around November the 4th or November the 8th of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would call attention to it?

Mr. TURNER. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about this, about the man they did the work for?

Mr. TURNER. He stated that he could not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did Ryder say?

Mr. TURNER. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever show them the gun itself?

Mr. TURNER. I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these men?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say who wrote the ticket?

Mr. TURNER. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket on--or try to pick up the work ticket?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and not let it get away from him.

Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this?

Mr. TURNER. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you remember?

Mr. TURNER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap," means, or did you discuss this with Mr. Greener?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say about it?

Mr. TURNER. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes. Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three screws in it.

Mr. BELIN. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he said that--do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it that was found in the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it.

Mr. BELIN. But this would indicate three screws on top?

Mr. TURNER. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole.

Mr. BELIN. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a screw?

Mr. TURNER. A hole.

Mr. BELIN. What about the bore sight? What does that mean?

Mr. TURNER. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that is to sight a rifle in.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three screws in their mount.

Mr. BELIN. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the School Book Depository Building had?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber rifles, 6.5.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it might have been picked up.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether or not he did this?

Mr. TURNER. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount or nature or something.

Mr. BELIN. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now?

Mr. TURNER. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification one way or the other, if you remember?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't identify him.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written up with a pencil. He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure out what day the rifle might have been left there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever do this at all, or not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. BELIN. You don't have another record of your going back and talking to him, do you?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know if the FBI did?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of the rifle?

Mr. TURNER. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the paper.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to determine that he had or had not worked on it?

Mr. TURNER. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not think that he was working on it.

Mr. BELIN. Why not?

Mr. TURNER. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the man another one, and would remember that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said about this?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the investigation you made that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here.

One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any preference or not?

Mr. TURNER. What have they been doing?

Mr. BELIN. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way.

Mr. TURNER. I suppose it is all right to just let it go.

Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it?

Mr. TURNER. Well.

TESTIMONY OF GUY F. ROSE

The testimony of Guy F. Rose was taken at 3 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROSE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, now, please?

Mr. ROSE. G. F. Rose, 714 Hall Road, Seagoville.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. ROSE. I am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ROSE. Ten years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. ROSE. I was born in Grannis, Ark.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school?

Mr. ROSE. I finished high school in Grand Prairie High School and attended grade school at Shady Grove Independent School District between Irving and Grand Prairie.

Mr. BALL. And what have you done since then?

Mr. ROSE. Well, after I finished high school I went to work for a construction company as a timekeeper and worked until I was 21. Then I went on the police department.

Mr. BALL. You have been on the police department ever since you were 21 years old?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was what year?

Mr. ROSE. It was in 1954.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. ROSE. I went on duty shortly after the assassination. At the time of the assassination I was not on duty.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty?

Mr. ROSE. No; I came in just as soon as I heard of the shooting--I came on to work.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. ROSE. I reported to the homicide office. It's room 317 at the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you?

Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and he told me it was Hidell.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald?

Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house.

Mr. BALL. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his name was "Hidell"?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you saw the two cards?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw the cards?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you his first name?

Mr. ROSE. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last name of "Hidell".

Mr. BALL. And then you found two or three cards on him?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. Did you search him?

Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not.

Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you sitting down?

Mr. ROSE. No; I was standing in the interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. Where was he--was he standing too?

Mr. ROSE. No; he was sitting in the chair.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him?

Mr. ROSE. I believe they were behind him--I don't remember for sure.

Mr. BALL. Who else was present at that time?

Mr. ROSE. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present.

Mr. BALL. The ones who brought him in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--I did see McDonald and I did talk to him, but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right there at the time or not.

Mr. BALL. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true name?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. ROSE. He said, "You find out."

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what his address was?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "You just find out."

Mr. BALL. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. ROSE. Later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know it at that time?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you go out to Irving--to the Irving Street address?

Mr. ROSE. In just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he instructed me to get two men and go to Irving to the Ruth Paine home and so I went immediately.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you "the Ruth Paine home," or did he tell you to go to a certain address in Irving?

Mr. ROSE. I believe he gave me the address.

Mr. BALL. What was the address?

Mr. ROSE. 2515 West Fifth in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How many men went out there?

Mr. ROSE. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall, and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E. W. Walthers, and J. L. Oxford, detectives for the county CID--we waited about 40 minutes and they came and met us.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. ROSE. No; we didn't.

Mr. BALL. How did you get in the house?

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened, I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle."

I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then in a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have."

So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is."

Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle. I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.

Mr. BALL. You brought that in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. ROSE. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly--I didn't do too much.

Mr. BALL. Could I see the report there, please?

Mr. ROSE. Yes--I wrote that report shortly after the 24th--I believe it was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken.

Mr. BALL. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael Paine come in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time, and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help."

Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us.

Mr. BALL. Did Marina Oswald tell you--point to the blanket and say something?

Mr. ROSE. She pointed to the blanket and said something in Russian and Ruth Paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for me--she said, "That's where her husband's rifle is."

Mr. BALL. About that time, while you were there, did a Mrs. Linnie Randle come over to you?

Mr. ROSE. She might have come up to the yard and I didn't talk with her--I saw her out in the yard--I didn't talk to her.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to her at all?

Mr. ROSE. At that time I didn't--I did later.

Mr. BALL. You brought Ruth Paine and Marina down to the police department, did you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we took Ruth Paine and Marina and Marina's two children in our car and also the blanket--I carried it.

Mr. BALL. And the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and looking around for Wesley Frazier?

Mr. ROSE. Well, we came on back to the city hall and we took Ruth Paine and Michael Paine and Marina Oswald to the homicide office, but it was so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next door, and then someone came over and I believe it was the Detective Senkel, to take affidavits from them and I immediately started trying to locate Wesley Frazier.

We were told that he would be at Parkland Hospital, but we checked through Parkland and there was no Fraziers there and I started a check of the clinics and the doctors' offices in Irving, and I located through one of the nurses, I believe, or talked to someone on the phone there that Mr. Frazier was in the hospital there at the Irving Clinic, so I called Detective McCabe in Irving and told him that we wanted to talk with Wesley Frazier and that we understood that Wesley was the one that had brought Lee Oswald to work that morning.

Mr. BALL. You took a statement from Frazier that day?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we got Frazier and brought him in and took a written affidavit off of him.

Mr. BALL. And you also talked to Linnie Randle that night?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I brought her in, too.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Lee Oswald any more during that day except the time you mentioned?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time that anyone questioned him?

Mr. ROSE. Not that day. I was the next day, on Saturday--I was present when Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. At this time you had a search warrant?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did you search on this day?

Mr. ROSE. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage.

Mr. BALL. What did you find there?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did you find some pictures?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right with those negatives I found a developed picture--I don't know what you call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and he found the other picture--of Oswald holding the rifle.

Mr. BALL. What color were the sea bags?

Mr. ROSE. I believe they were kind of an off white--I would call them--more of a greyish-white.

Mr. BALL. What about the suitcases?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of them was real worn.

Mr. BALL. But you brought that property back here into town, did you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later that day?

Mr. ROSE. On Saturday evening--that Saturday evening.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around 9 or 10 o'clock, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Who was present?

Mr. ROSE. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself--I don't remember--there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but I don't remember their names.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?

Mr. ROSE. Do I remember what was said?

Mr. BALL. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. ROSE. In Captain Fritz' office--yes. Well, the occasion was--I got back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain said, "Well, is that your face on the picture?"

And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I remember that part of it distinctly.

I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in Russia.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. ROSE. Well, he talked about how life was better for the colored people in Russia than it was in the United States. I don't remember--he just rambled on--he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the President?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing Tippit?

Mr. ROSE. No; I don't believe so. Some mention might have been made of the assassination but I don't believe it was as an accusation to him. That was the only interrogation I sat in on.

Mr. BALL. That was the only one you sat in on?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said in that interrogation?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; that's about all I can remember. There was more said, but I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any of the search of the premises?

Mr. ROSE. Let's, let's see--that was Saturday, and then Sunday, immediately after Oswald was shot, I reported for duty and I was supposed to be off and I reported on as soon as as he was shot and Captain Fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to Jack Ruby's apartment and search it and I did.

Mr. BALL. I believe those are all the questions I have to ask you, Mr. Rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you can waive your signature--just as you wish. What do you prefer?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I don't know--will it be later?

Mr. BALL. A couple of weeks.

Mr. ROSE. Well, if she will just call me, I will drop by anytime.

Mr. BALL. Okay, that will be fine. We will do this. Thanks very much.

Mr. ROSE. Let's see, there was something else I was going to tell you now, I wanted to mention--we did run Wesley Frazier on the polygraph, did you know that?

Mr. BALL. I know you did--we know about that.

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks.

TESTIMONY OF W. E. PERRY

The testimony of W. E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. PERRY. W. E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? What is your address?

Mr. PERRY. 6821 Overlook.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. PERRY. Police officer.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born and where you were raised?

Mr. PERRY. I was born and raised right here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. PERRY. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. PERRY. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on to the police department. Been there about 11 years.

Mr. BALL. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in November of 1963?

Mr. PERRY. I was with the vice and special services bureau.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the vice bureau----

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Squadroom?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or----

Mr. BALL. First one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. PERRY. 6:30.

Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever heard of officers taking part in showups before in your department?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself?

Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?

Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the vice squad?

Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-uh, no. Never heard of it done.

Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup?

Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you?

Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.

Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who else was there?

Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was----

Mr. BALL. Anything said there?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?

Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.

Mr. BALL. What color?

Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?

Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To whom?

Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?

Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.

Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup?

Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me.

Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4?

Mr. PERRY. Ables.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before?

Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally.

Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail?

Mr. PERRY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.

Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?

Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.

Mr. BALL. What else?

Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?

Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but they weren't----

Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or true address?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Gave some----

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that?

Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we went back up there and----

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time?

Mr. PERRY. Same way.

Mr. BALL. Same coat?

Mr. PERRY. Same coat.

Mr. BALL. No tie?

Mr. PERRY. No tie.

Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address?

Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?

Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?

Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?

Mr. PERRY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?

Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?

Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?

Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?

Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. PERRY. About 150.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. PERRY. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. PERRY. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.

Mr. BALL. Fair. That's all.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK

The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLARK. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark.

Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address?

Mr. CLARK. 4928 Live Oak.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CLARK. Eleven years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Go through school here?

Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. CLARK. After I went to school?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. I went to work.

Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that as the Commission isn't going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about you and where you were born and your early education, what you have done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the testimony.

Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the police department.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police department?

Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of the police department, did you?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. CLARK. Two.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?

Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?

Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?

Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who went with you?

Mr. CLARK. My partner.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. CLARK. W. E. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?

Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?

Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?

Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.

Mr. BALL. What was said at that time?

Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us to make a showup with them.

Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long?

Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less.

Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?

Mr. CLARK. At homicide.

Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.

Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?

Mr. CLARK. Brown.

Mr. BALL. With belt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do?

Mr. CLARK. He took of his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a sports coat hanging there that he put on.

Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you?

Mr. CLARK. Total?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald, and another man out of the jail office.

Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. My right hand was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand.

Mr. BALL. Your right----

Mr. CLARK. To his left.

Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W. E. Perry, was next to Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right hand.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables?

Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the showup as such? Have a number above each man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do.

Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were you numbered from left to right?

Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right.

Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the audience?

Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite.

Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who was the first one to the left?

Mr. CLARK. First one to my left?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. CLARK. Be Ables.

Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3?

Mr. CLARK. Myself.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. CLARK. Ables.

Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience. The audience was looking at him, it would be----

Mr. BALL. He stood on your left?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1?

Mr. CLARK. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions?

Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?

Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.

Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?

Mr. BALL. Oh, in the showup.

Mr. BALL. In the showup.

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.

Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?

Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.

Mr. BALL. Fictitious?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said.

Mr. BALL. Lights were on you?

Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and tell me what time that first showup was?

Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m.

Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showup also, weren't you?

Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in that?

Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they wanted us again.

Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around?

Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office.

Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there.

Mr. BALL. Who called you?

Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call?

Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there.

Mr. BALL. Fritz' office?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in the first showup?

Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the homicide, and I took it off and left it there.

Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress?

Mr. CLARK. The same red vest.

Mr. BALL. What about your tie?

Mr. CLARK. No tie.

Mr. BALL. What about the coat?

Mr. CLARK. No coat.

Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing?

Mr. CLARK. Same position.

Mr. BALL. Same position?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1?

Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1. Oswald----

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. CLARK. Perry.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2?

Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4.

Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation.

Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers.

Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your height?

Mr. CLARK. About 5'11".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. CLARK. About 177.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. CLARK. Blond.

Mr. BALL. And your eyes?

Mr. CLARK. Blue.

Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair?

Mr. CLARK. Fair.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in the police department showup?

Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual.

Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all.

Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his deposition.

TESTIMONY OF DON R. ABLES

The testimony of Don R. Ables was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ABLES. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. ABLES. Don R. Ables.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Ables?

Mr. ABLES. 1520 Kingsley, in Garland.

Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. ABLES. Jail clerk, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a jail clerk in the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ABLES. About 7 months.

Mr. BALL. And you are a member of the police department?

Mr. ABLES. I am a civilian employee.

Mr. BALL. Civilian employee? You are not----

Mr. ABLES. An actual member of the----

Mr. BALL. An actual member of the department?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. ABLES. I was born and raised in Hico, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? You probably know it. I don't.

Mr. ABLES. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. Did you go to school there?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. ABLES. Well, through 10-1/2 grades.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. ABLES. Joined the Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. ABLES. Seven and a half years.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. ABLES. Came straight to Dallas and went to work for the police department.

Mr. BALL. That was 7 months ago?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were on duty on November 22, 1963, were you?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon? Did you take part in a showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to take part in the showup? Tell me who asked you to, or ordered you to?

Mr. ABLES. Well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. ABLES. Sergeant Duncan.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. ABLES. Told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out there.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Mr. ABLES. Well, they was all standing in the room, and I just joined in with them.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. ABLES. Went into the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Showup room?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed when you went in the showup room?

Mr. ABLES. I was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. You have a gray-knit sweater on?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And dark trousers?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a tie on?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is that right?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup room?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; none whatever.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever been in a showup before?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of officers or employees of the Police Department being used in a showup before?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir; I have. I hadn't until I went to work for the police department.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever afterwards?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, it is your conclusion I know, but tell me briefly what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using jail employees or officers in showups? You can generalize. I am not holding you down as to where you learned it. Tell me what you learned about it?

Mr. ABLES. Well, only times that I have heard that--I have never seen a police officer or employee used in a showup but only times I have heard of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need somebody to do that. Well, to more or less look like they belong in a showup or something.

Mr. BALL. Somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked certain questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were not? When you went in there where did you stand in the line?

Mr. ABLES. I was No. 4.

Mr. BALL. That would be facing the audience?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were aware then that you were No. 4 in this?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the audience?

Mr. ABLES. Be on the left.

Mr. BALL. Left facing the audience, is that right?

Mr. ABLES. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your left?

Mr. ABLES. My left.

Mr. BALL. Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he ask you any questions?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?

Mr. ABLES. As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my occupation was and where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL. And where what?

Mr. ABLES. Where I went to high school.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask your name?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. What did you answer?

Mr. ABLES. When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Gave him a fictitious occupation?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he asked you where you went to high school, where did you tell him?

Mr. ABLES. I believe I told him Dallas. I'm not quite sure on that.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Could you hear anything from the audience?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything?

Mr. ABLES. Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him questions.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer the questions?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't you?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. ABLES. About 6:30.

Mr. BALL. And in that showup, how were you dressed?

Mr. ABLES. Same way.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to go to that showup?

Mr. ABLES. The detective in charge of the showup wanted the same members back in there.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember who asked you the questions?

Mr. ABLES. I don't remember his name. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you in that showup? What number?

Mr. ABLES. Same position, No. 4.

Mr. BALL. Who was in that showup?

Mr ABLES. It was Perry, Oswald, Clark, and myself.

Mr. BALL. Same ones as in the first showup up there?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Ask you questions?

Mr. ABLES. I don't recall on that, on the second showup. I know he did on the first showup.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he did or not ask you questions?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not on the second showup.

Mr. BALL. If he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they were?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir; or what I said.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you take part in another showup?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr BALL. When was that?

Mr. ABLES. That was later on that evening. I don't recall what time.

Mr. BALL. Think it would be around 7:55, or 8 o'clock?

Mr. ABLES. Could have been; I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. And who was in that showup with you?

Mr. ABLES. Myself, Oswald, and two prisoners.

Mr. BALL. Four, again, were there?

Mr. ABLES. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the prisoners?

Mr ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have the names here. Richard Walter Borchgardt. Do you know whether he was there?

Mr ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or Ellis Brazel?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't know him?

Mr. ABLES. No.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in this showup?

Mr. ABLES. The same detective that was in charge of the showup said that he wanted me back in there.

Mr. BALL. Had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail during the time?

Mr. ABLES. Well; I performed my duties in the jail office.

Mr. BALL. In between the showups?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. ABLES. The jail office adjoins the showup room.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. ABLES. 2:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed on the third showup?

Mr. ABLES. Same way.

Mr. BALL. As you had been on the first and second?

Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were questions asked of you again?

Mr. ABLES. I don't believe it was asked on the third showup. I am quite sure there was no questions asked.

Mr. BALL. Where were you on the third showup? What number?

Mr. ABLES. I was in my same position, No. 4.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. He was in his position No. 2.

Mr. BALL. You were at no time handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. ABLES. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me your height?

Mr. ABLES. About 5'9".

Mr. BALL. What is your weight?

Mr. ABLES. Around 165 or something.

Mr. BALL. And your hair?

Mr. ABLES. Dark.

Mr. BALL. Eyes?

Mr. ABLES. Brown.

Mr. BALL. Complexion?

Mr. ABLES. Ruddy.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all. You can be excused, too.

Mr. ABLES. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN

The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please.

Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in this matter? You were asked to come here?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you not?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify.

Are you willing to testify to whatever you know?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear.

Mr. BALL. Dallas?

Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help.

Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born?

Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?

Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?

Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade.

Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray.

Mr. BALL. Red?

Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2-1/2 years.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service.

Mr. BALL. Direct to where?

Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service.

Mr. BALL. Delivery Service?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?

Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that.

Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. You went to Huntsville Prison?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what charge?

Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics.

Mr. BALL. How long were you there?

Mr. LUJAN. Three years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. I got out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale Groceries.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there?

Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps?

Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.

Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was the charge?

Mr. LUJAN. Investigation.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics.

Mr. BALL. Of narcotics?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested?

Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that.

Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination.

Mr. BALL. Before the assassination?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail?

Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday.

Mr. BALL. Then did they release you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything?

Mr. LUJAN. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take part in a showup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time of day was it?

Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon?

Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Or what?

Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday?

Mr. LUJAN. No; just one showup and Saturday----

Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that?

Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand up and he looked at me and said, "Come out."

So, I came out, and he went and got three more.

Mr. BALL. Got three more?

Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows.

Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know them?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did they look like?

Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker.

Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight?

Mr. LUJAN. Weigh about 170.

Mr. BALL. What is your height?

Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8".

Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark?

Mr. LUJAN. Black.

Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes?

Mr. LUJAN. Brown.

Mr. BALL. And brown, and your complexion?

Mr. LUJAN. Olive.

Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican.

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you?

Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about----

Mr. BALL. Same coloring?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup?

Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him.

Mr. BALL. Right next to him?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed to him?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were standing in the lineup?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were what would be----

Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him.

Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right?

Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed----

Mr. BALL. To the right?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he?

Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something.

Mr. BALL. How were you dressed?

Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt.

Mr. BALL. What color shirt?

Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket.

Mr. BALL. Brown jacket?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Any tie on?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co.

Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number.

Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address?

Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions?

Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all.

Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald?

Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud?

Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left about a minute.

Mr. BALL. Then you left?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you in there and he did ask you questions?

Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and that's all.

Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they?

Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions.

Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others their name and address?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address?

Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave.

Mr. LUJAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself?

Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me.

Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working?

Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay.

TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN

The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn in here. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BROWN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please.

Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BROWN. Police officer.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.

Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?

Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. BROWN. Through high school.

Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way?

Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. BROWN. No; divorced.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way?

Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy.

Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my discharge in 1944.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war?

Mr. BROWN. I started to work for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mr. BROWN. As an installer.

Mr. BELIN. Of telephones?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went to work for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go to work for the city of Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since.

Mr. BELIN. How long now?

Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.

Mr. BELIN. What is your position now?

Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so?

Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective J. R. Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President?

Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now."

So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there and help them."

So we immediately put this subject in jail.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. My partner went to the front of the building. I went to the back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me to do. He said for me and Detective B. L. Senkel to gather up--there was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they were at the time of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey Oswald.

And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is one of my boys."

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say?

Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald in there in the room we were using.

We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in there.

Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there.

He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes."

Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time?

Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas School Book Depository. He called from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes."

Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination?

Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal opinion at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, saw, or heard at the time of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the time you talked to him?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and what he was doing, and what type work he did there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the shooting?

Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do.

Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President?

Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he said he was.

Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me.

Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then.

Mr. BROWN. All right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time?

Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee?

Mr. BROWN. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit?

Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form?

I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that you participated in?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner, C. N. Dhority. This occurred in the basement of the city hall with a Mr. McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from your left to right.

Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right.

Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BROWN. No; it does not.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available?

Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the bus transfer.

Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup were for other witnesses to observe.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the bus. I gave him a transfer."

Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found in Oswald's possession?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office.

Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that?

Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark."

Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that?

Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, and he held it up for comparison there in our presence.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you remember?

Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup.

Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups.

Mr. BELIN. Who else?

Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N. Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home.

After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs. Barbara Jeannette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Was----

Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and Mrs. Barbara Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick?

Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man?

Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got them under the numbers, too.

Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly.

Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification?

Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses on either Officer Tippit or the President's assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date, November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard.

Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the two women?

Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office for affidavits and identification.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to?

Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab.

Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over?

Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that?

Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime lab himself, which was initialled by both of us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir?

Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any further witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or the Tippit murder?

Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your choice.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then?

Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department.

TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES

Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GRAVES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, for the reporter?

Mr. GRAVES. My name is L. C. Graves.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Graves?

Mr. GRAVES. I am a detective with the police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GRAVES. I am 45 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; I was born and raised in Camp County, October 8, 1918.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GRAVES. Leesburg--I mean to Pittsburg.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GRAVES. I finished 10-1/2 years of schooling in Pittsburg and Leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Then what did I do?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, let's see. From there I went into the CCC camp.

Mr. BELIN. For a period of several years?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, I think a couple of years, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then I joined the Texas National Guard, and shortly after that it mobilized and I went into active service, at which time I stayed until I was discharged after the war.

Mr. BELIN. Was this an honorable discharge?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Army, say, generally?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I was in the Infantry, and I was a mess sergeant, and I cooked principally all the time I was in.

Mr. BELIN. You were the one we all complained about when the food wasn't good?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; if you want to put it that way. I got a few complaints.

Mr. BELIN. Then after your discharge, what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. After my discharge, I came to Dallas, I married and went to work for Interstate Theatres. First went to work for Railway Express Agency here and worked for a short period of time and then I went to work for Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me retract that. I believe I went to work for S. H. Lynch Co. first and later changed to Paramount Distributors, and they went broke, and then I went with Interstate Theatres, and that is where I was working when I went to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all related? In other words, when you say Paramount, was that----

Mr. GRAVES. No. S. H. Lynch Co. had a cigarette-candy item section of the company in connection with the beer distributors. Paramount Distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business, which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the movie industry or picture industry, so to speak.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that aspect of the business?

Mr. GRAVES. The Paramount Distributors, I was a bookkeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went from there to where?

Mr. GRAVES. Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate Theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. They call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration.

Mr. BELIN. Of theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then from there you went to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. GRAVES. October 31, 1949.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been with the Dallas Police Department ever since?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Graves, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was that an off day for you, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work, if at all?

Mr. GRAVES. About 2 o'clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already heard the news of the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, yes. When I came to work, I had already heard. That is the reason I went to work, as a matter of fact.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, could you state what you did after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, the first thing that I did was take a statement from, I believe her name was, Helen Markham.

Let me see; yes, I took a statement from Miss or Mrs. Helen Markham.

Mr. BELIN. How did you happen to see Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her over there, and when I walked in they told me to go talk to this lady and take an affidavit from her, which I did.

Mr. BELIN. You say she was quite hysterical. Describe her actions.

Mr. GRAVES. She was crying and upset, naturally.

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. You took an affidavit from her?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I held a showup along with Leavelle and the Chief and Captain Fritz, and I don't remember who else, about a roomful.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state what occurred in that showup? How many people were in this showup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember exactly how many people.

Mr. BELIN. You mean of the men that were actually lined up?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. I believe four or five, I think. He was identified as No. 2 man. Let me see, he was identified as No. 2 man in a four-man lineup, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the people were who were in this particular lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. Nobody but Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection or notes which would in any way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. I was present out in the front with Mrs. Markham, and I don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men that were on the stage. It is quite possible that they might have the names of the other people that were in this lineup, but I don't myself. I don't remember this physical description.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not they were all white men or was one or more a Negro?

Mr. GRAVES. They were all white men.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about their approximate ages?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. Let me say this, that it would be very unusual if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, I might add, because we just don't operate that way.

Mr. BELIN. What is your general mode of operation with regard to showups? Perhaps you could tell us this.

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I sure can. When we want to show a person up, we call the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the approximate age, size, and so forth.

And they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the approximate age or size, do you specify what age or size you want?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the man that you are bringing down.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. So all he has to do is pick them out.

Mr. BELIN. So what you mean is the approximate age and size of the particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another particular age and size?

Mr. GRAVES. The fact is, if I was showing you, I would tell them to pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size. That is what it boils down to.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you tell us what Mrs. or Miss Markham did or said when this particular showup took place? Were you standing right next to her?

Mr. GRAVES. About as close as I am to you, which would be approximately 4 or 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right; the men walked in, I assume, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was Mrs. Markham at that particular time?

Mr. GRAVES. She was standing in the center of the room, approximately in the first row of seats near the front.

Mr. BELIN. She was seated?

Mr. GRAVES. No; she was standing.

Mr. BELIN. She was standing?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did she look through an opening in the wall?

Mr. GRAVES. No; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. I am sure you have seen them?

Mr. BELIN. She can see through, as I understand, but the people in the showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. Is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what she said or did after the men in the showup came in?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, she began to cry when he came in. He was next to the last man that come in in that order. No. 4, 3, 2, 1, and so forth that came in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean No. 4 came first, then No. 3 and then No. 2 and then No. 1?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When did she start crying?

Mr. GRAVES. When he walked in, Oswald walked in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean when the No. 2 man walked in?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still walking at the time she started crying?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. As soon as she saw him; yes. He would have to walk as far as from here to that stand, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about 6 or 8 feet?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; roughly.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did she do or say?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course she said that was the man that she saw, Oswald. I mean at this particular time.

Mr. BELIN. Did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their profiles?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is the normal procedure that we do that. We turn him profile, right, left, and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific that she said at the time that she made the identification?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing other than he is the one, No. 2 is the one.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything said by any of the men in the showup that would--did they speak any words or say anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. If they did, I don't remember what was said. I am reasonably sure they asked some questions. That is the usual procedure. If they were, at this point I just don't remember what was said.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the dress of the people in the showup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; positively not.

Mr. BELIN. Does your police department ever take any photograph of an actual showup, I mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing or what they looked like?

Mr. GRAVES. That was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has been done, however, in the past.

But for various reasons, as I say, it is not the customary thing, because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the picture, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you have any recollection of in connection with this showup of Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham's identification?

Mrs. GRAVES. I don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about when this took place, this actual showup?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, let's see if I have it written down here. We put Lee Oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on November 22, 1963, at 4:30 p.m., and had Helen Markham view this lineup. She was positive on the identification of Oswald, and he was the No. 2 man in the four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. You were reading from your notes that you made of your actions on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't remember anything else except this affidavit of Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. That was on November 23, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. November 23.

Mr. BELIN. I am still on November 22.

Mr. GRAVES. Have you had any of the reports that we have made?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I have read them all, but I have to get this down for the record.

Mr. GRAVES. You want me to read this verbatim?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the written record that you submitted to your department.

I am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. If you can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in your written report.

Sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you remember something that you might not have put down at the time.

Mr. GRAVES. Offhand, I don't remember anything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, according to your written report, you took Helen Markham back to her address, to let her out?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in talking with Helen Markham what she said as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe she was going to catch a bus. I would have to see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but I think she was either going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her being at that location.

Mr. BELIN. Now you also later interviewed on that day several other people in connection with the Tippit murder, did you not?

Mr. GRAVES. I talked to some; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who these were?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, and Domingo Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. Did any of those men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. They did come down later, but I didn't have anything to do with the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I think they did. I was told that they did, and I have not seen anything authentic about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, your report says two of the three men came down to the city hall and gave affidavits on views of Oswald in the lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be lineup.

Mr. BELIN. From my interpretation here from what we have, Ted Callaway and Sam Guinyard gave affidavits, but Domingo Benavides did not. Is there any particular reason that you know of why Benavides did not come down to give an affidavit or view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. Because after this little episode with them, I never saw them or had any occasion to talk to them any further.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation particularly with Domingo Benavides?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am going to try and refresh your recollection to see if I can help you a little bit.

I believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the Tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over Tippit's radio that Tippit had been shot. Does this strike a chord in your memory?

Mr. GRAVES. Not to me. He didn't tell me that. Leavelle talked to him to one side.

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You weren't the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. He didn't tell me that.

Mr. BELIN. But Officer Leavelle would be the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on November 22?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember anything else of any consequence. I had so many phone calls.

Mr. BELIN. You had a few phone calls to the police station that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Just a few, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. That is the day I took the affidavit of Mrs. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever bring Mrs. Bledsoe down to view the lineup at all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. I didn't; no.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular reason why you elected not to take her down, if this was your election? I don't know if it was.

Mr. GRAVES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down to view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. Now she claimed that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus shortly after the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to a lineup and she refused to come down?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. I asked her to come down and give an affidavit.

Mr. BELIN. Was she actually at the police department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. Whose responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people? Is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of the investigation, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. In a case like this, it would have to be the person in charge of the entire investigation.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? Insofar as Bledsoe?

Mr. GRAVES. Insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me refresh my memory here, if I can. I don't know. I don't remember anything else on the 23d that was outstanding.

Mr. BELIN. Now on November 24--first, I want to take that part of November 24 up to the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby. First, did you have any contact or anything to do with the investigation of the case on November 24, on Sunday?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not before he was transferred.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing except that I was present during the latter part of the interrogation; part of it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state the circumstances under which you were present? How you happened to be present?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I had been told that we were going to transfer Lee Harvey Oswald, and we were told to make preparations to do that, so that would necessitate going into the office where he was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find when you went in the office?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I found, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald, Captain Fritz, and the people that I have named here. The others present were Mr. Holmes from the U.S. Post Office Department, Mr. Kelley from the Secret Service, Agent Sorrels from the Secret Service, L. D. Montgomery, detective; C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle; and Chief Curry came in just a few minutes before we started to move.

Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in the bringing of Oswald down to be interrogated?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time in the morning, was this?

Mr. GRAVES. I think that was around 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay with him throughout the interrogation, or did you leave?

Mr. GRAVES. I stayed in the same room near. In the bureau, actually.

Mr. BELIN. This was done in Captain Fritz' office, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you brought Lee Harvey Oswald into Captain Fritz' office at 9:30 a.m., what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I went back out and answered telephones and talked to people coming in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you witness any part of the early interrogation?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go back into Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. GRAVES. Roughly, about 11:10 or 11:15 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the original time set for transfer was around 10 a.m.?

Mr. GRAVES. That was my understanding.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me ask you, has anyone else taken your deposition here?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you have already been questioned as to the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is something I don't want to get into. What about the interrogation? Do you remember any subjects that were covered?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I couldn't think of Mr. Kelley's name, the last time, but he questioned Oswald along the line of his activity in Mexico and in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not Oswald admitted that he was in Mexico?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe he did admit it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said about his activities in Mexico?

Mr. GRAVES. I am too vague on that to make any statement on what he said. I don't remember exactly, so I would rather not say anything. I know that he did say something, but the best of my knowledge, it sure didn't amount to a great deal. Very evasive, as every other answer was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific, any questions or any statements that Oswald made about any other subject that was discussed?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he said that he had been a student of Marxism since he was 14, I believe, and Communist line, and that he, well, one of his last statements was that the American people would soon forget the President was shot. Of course he never admitted that he did it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he did it?

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes; he was asked, but of course----

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. GRAVES. He said no, he didn't shoot him.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he shot Officer Tippit?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence whether or not he owned a rifle?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his answer was?

Mr. GRAVES. He said that he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked in your presence anything about a picture of him with a rifle?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his statement was with regard to the picture?

Mr. GRAVES. He said, "You could superimpose anything you want to with cameras. It wasn't him."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else, that you remember, about the picture?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about the use of an alias?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; he was, but he denied that, of course.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked anything about his having a pistol in his possession when he was apprehended, or did he make any statements?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he wasn't asked anything about the pistol in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Did he make any statements about having a lawyer while he was in your presence?

Mr. GRAVES. Having a lawyer?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you brought him in, after you brought him in, which was around 9:30, how long did you stay there? Through about how many minutes of interrogation before you left?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, from 9:30 until approximately 11:15, somewhere along there.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in the room in which the interrogation occurred throughout this period?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, how long were you in the room where he was being interrogated?

Mr. GRAVES. About 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. You were there the first 10 minutes?

Mr. GRAVES. No; last 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any of the initial questions of the interrogation at all?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now you accompanied Oswald down from his fifth floor jail cell to Captain Fritz' office to be interrogated, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with him when you picked him up at his jail cell?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you remember telling him he was going to be brought down for interrogation?

Mr. GRAVES. I told him they were going to transfer him.

Mr. BELIN. That is what you told him?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say as to that?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he didn't have anything to say. He didn't know what transfer meant, I don't think. I think he meant from one jail cell to another. He didn't know that meant going to the county.

Mr. BELIN. When you brought him down to Captain Fritz' office, he of course had been there before, hadn't he?

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any comments as he walked in the office about being interrogated or anything of that nature?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. He might have said something to the news media, I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald ever requested that he be provided a lawyer, insofar as your own personal knowledge is concerned? Did he ever make any such request to you or in your presence?

Mr. GRAVES. No, no; sure didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not he was ever advised that he had a right to have a lawyer?

Mr. GRAVES. Not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. This is what I am asking, then, just of your own knowledge?

Mr. GRAVES. No; he wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. He might have been by someone else, but it wasn't done before you?

Mr. GRAVES. Might have been by someone else, but not in my presence.

Mr. BELIN. Was this as much contact as you had with Oswald? You indicate you saw him in a showup and you picked him up in a jail cell and you brought him down to be interrogated on November 24, when you were present during about 10 minutes, the latter part of this interrogation. Any other contacts with Oswald apart from these?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not that I had direct contact with him.

Mr. BELIN. What was your impression of him, as far as a person is concerned? His demeanor, his action, what kind of a person he was?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but I would say he was an eight ball, in my vernacular.

Mr. BELIN. An eight ball in Army vernacular?

Mr. GRAVES. In any vernacular. We deal with a lot of people in our business, as well as we run into all types of people. I would say that he was egotistical.

Mr. BELIN. Let me stop right there. What gave you the impression he was egotistical?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't know. A person of his nature and cocky attitude, I don't know exactly how to explain it.

Mr. BELIN. Any specific thing that he did that gave you that impression, that you can remember at all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. No; not anything in particular. Again, you just have to be around people. I don't know how to explain how people act to where it means anything, but I know what it means to me. I have been wrong a few times, but I have been right most of the time in summing up how people are, their actions, and so forth, and I would say this boy was a little far out in his belief about things in general.

And the way he conducted hisself. He is just plain egotistical, that is all. He don't care about you, me, or anybody else. He is caring about Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Can you think of any specific action or remark of his that might be an illustration of this?

Mr. GRAVES. I can't offhand, no.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you described him, you used the phrase "eight ball." You used "egotistical." Can you use any other adjective that you think would apply to him as you saw him?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I think that pretty well covers it, myself.

Mr. BELIN. Was he generally quiet, or was he soft spoken, or was he quick to make remarks?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, he was quick to answer and quick to make a remark when he was spoken to or asked a question.

Mr. BELIN. Is he what you would categorize as polite in his answers or not?

Mr. GRAVES. Not always polite. He was straightforward and to the point, and not necessarily polite.

Don't lead me off in a channel of psychiatry, because I am just telling you my own personal feeling about the man, and I could be wrong, as I said. So I am not an expert in that field. I am just telling you what I think about the man, and you take it for what it is worth. As I said, I could be wrong. I have been wrong before.

Mr. BELIN. Was he attentive as you saw him. I mean, did he----

Mr. GRAVES. If you mean--he is sharp when it comes to talking to the men. He listened to everything, everybody he saw, and he had an answer by the time you got through asking him. That would make him attentive.

Mr. BELIN. This could be helpful. In other words, if he were asked a question, did he pause before he answered the question, or did he just shoot an answer straight back?

Mr. GRAVES. Just answered right back.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any exceptions to this, that you could remember, or was this almost invariably the case?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, that was the case in everything that I heard him say. He didn't hunt for words, didn't hesitate at all.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Graves, is there anything else you can think of that might be relevant to this area of inquiry which involves anything to do with Lee Harvey Oswald or the investigation of the assassination, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. GRAVES. At this point, I don't recall anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your cooperation, doubly so, because we know you have been down here once before, and I want to tell you that you have a right, if you would like, to read the transcript of this deposition and sign it and make any corrections that you wish, or you can just have the reporter ship it to us directly in Washington, and waive the signing, whatever you want to do? Do you have any preference at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, if I don't sign it, it won't make any difference anyway.

Mr. BELIN. You can waive it if you would like to.

Mr. GRAVES. I will waive it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. GRAVES. In the interest of time and everything.

Mr. BELIN. Thanks a lot.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES R. LEAVELLE

The testimony of James R. Leavelle was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general, was present.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Leavelle, will you stand and raise your right hand?

[Witness complying.]

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?

Mr. LEAVELLE. James R. Leavelle.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. LEAVELLE. 7703 R-i-l-l-a [spelling], Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And, what is your occupation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the department?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Fourteen years.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the homicide squad?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A little over 5 years.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about where you were born and your education; what you have done most of your life.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was born and raised mostly in Red River County in east Texas and went into service. After leaving the service, coming out of the service I worked for different companies here in Dallas until I joined the department in 1950.

Mr. BALL. The purpose of our inquiry here is to find out facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. That's the general purpose of it.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A minor part you might say. I didn't have much to do with Oswald, myself.

Mr. BALL. Well, you talked to some of the witnesses, didn't you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I was.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I was working 8 to 4 I believe, that month and I had--when I heard of the assassination. I had just come into the homicide office with a Negro boy I had arrested for robbery.

Mr. BALL. Whereabouts did you go then after that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. We, along with Charlie Brown, went to the building, the Texas Book Depository, and talked with the inspector there. I asked him if the building had been secured and he said it was and Captain Fritz was in the building.

Mr. BALL. Was that Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he said they were sending all witnesses to the sheriff's office and I might go over and check and see what was needed, so I went to the sheriff's office and found them in a general uproar more or less. They had several witnesses around and they wanted to take affidavits from them; however, none of them had started. So, when I walked in, they knew I was a homicide man and would be indirectly responsible for some of the investigation, so I talked with Allen Sweatt, chief deputy, and started to set up the procedure for the taking of the affidavits from the witnesses when several of the--four, five or six of the burglary and theft detectives walked in and told me that they were sent down there to do whatever was needed to be done and asked me what was needed, so I told them to work with Mr. Sweatt and take those affidavits and they could do that as well as I and I would go back to the Depository and see what might further be needed over there. I went to the Depository and had been there just a short time talking to some of the officers on duty there. I don't remember who they were at this time and at that time I heard a radio broadcast of the shooting in Oak Cliff which involved Officer Tippit and I called my office and found that there was no one to answer the call in Oak Cliff and since everything was under control there, I felt like some of us should be in Oak Cliff, so I borrowed a car from Detective Red Edwards of burglary----

(At this point, Mr. Robert T. Davis enters.)

Mr. BALL. Go ahead, Mr. Leavelle.

Mr. LEAVELLE. I borrowed an automobile from Detective Red Edwards, A. L. Edwards, and proceeded to the Oak Cliff area. I went to the scene of the shooting. They had removed Tippit's body at that time and I talked with the sergeant and the officer.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe Sergeant Bud Owens was the sergeant there and one of the uniformed officers was--I may be in error on this, but I believe it was Poe.

Mr. BALL. J. M. Poe?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; P-o-e [spelling].

Mr. BALL. At that time someone told you some empty .38 caliber hulls had been picked up. Did Poe tell you that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you the hulls?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; he did not give them to me. I think my instructions to him were to turn them over to the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. Did he show them to you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I don't think so; he may have but I do not recall. He may have. He did say that there was an eyewitness to it but he didn't know her name at the time. So, while I was talking to him was when the call came out they seen the suspect go into the Texas Theatre, so I proceeded to the Texas Theatre, but due to the heavy traffic, I didn't get there until after the arrest was made and they had left, so I returned to the scene and talked with the officer some more and I believe that he also told me that a man in a carlot down there had seen Oswald running from the scene.

Mr. BALL. Who told you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Poe, I believe. Now, I could be in error on that but someone told me anyway, so----

Mr. BALL. You went back to the police station and took some affidavits from witnesses, didn't you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That's right, I went on to the station at that time and took affidavits from--talked with some of the witnesses that they had brought in there because at the time I didn't realize there was any connection between Oswald and the shooting of Tippit or the one that they had arrested in the Texas Theatre for the killing of Tippit and the Presidential assassination. I thought it was two different things altogether. So, I proceeded back to the office to work on that end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the Presidential assassination, and not until we got there did I realize some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the Texas Book Depository, did we realize Oswald could very well be the same one who assassinated the President.

Mr. BALL. Well, did Captain Fritz instruct you to go out and pick up the witness and come down to a showup, bring her down to a showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; this Helen Markham, the witness, was in such a state of shock she had been unable to view the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see her the first time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. She was in the emergency room, in the hospital emergency room, first aid room, whatever you call it in the basement of the city hall, and I went over and talked with her and kind of got her calmed down where she thought she could stand to view the lineup, and when she told me that she felt like she was able to stand it, why, I called the captain and told him that we were ready for the showup, at which time some of the other officers brought Oswald down. I took here into the showup room myself and stood with her while she viewed the lineup.

Mr. BALL. Were you and Helen Markham the only two in what you call the showup room?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, Captain Fritz and Chief Curry was in there also and possibly one or two others; I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. How about your partner, C. W. Brown?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know whether he was there or not.

Mr. BALL. Any other witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Now Mr. Graves may have been in there.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other witnesses in there?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Who picked the men for the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not know.

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had nothing to do with that.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the men were in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That particular showup they had gotten two of the officers, I believe, that work in the vice squad.

Mr. BALL. I have the names of the people in the showup; No. 1 was Bill Perry; is he a Dallas Police Department officer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. No. 3 R. L. Clark----

Mr. LEAVELLE. He is an officer also.

Mr. BALL. Vice squad?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Don Ables is a jail clerk?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who picked these men?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I do not know who decided that they be in the showup. Of course, I am sure whoever did was using them, thinking of the security angle of it more than anything else, rather than getting prisoners down there.

Mr. BALL. Is it unusual to use officers in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we don't normally do it.

Mr. BALL. You usually have other prisoners in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, trustees serving time, or----

Mr. BALL. What is your memory as to how these men were dressed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I think all of them had on just shirts and trousers, I believe. I don't think there was any coats involved in any of them.

Mr. BALL. Did any have ties?

Mr. LEAVELLE. None had ties or hats on.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup questioning?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I probably asked the questions, yes.

Mr. BALL. What questions?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Normally, I would not have asked names in this case because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice.

Mr. BALL. Did any of them say they were police officers?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, no; the officers gave some other occupation.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did Helen Markham say while she was in the showup room?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, she was very nervous and I do not recall what all she did say, but she was able to identify Oswald as the one.

Mr. BALL. What did she tell you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. She said he was the man that was at the scene she saw do the shooting over there in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a statement from her then?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I took one from her but I do not remember whether--just when I took it.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I--Mr. Graves and I took Helen back home and after we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, 501 East Jefferson, and talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the one that had seen the man running. He had heard the shots and seen the man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said, each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot with the gun in his hand.

Mr. BALL. You also talked to Domingo Benavides?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. D-o-m-i-n-g-o B-e-n-a-v-i-d-e-s [spelling]. I would think it would be spelled differently.

Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to be Mexican descent but that Benavides is actually an Italian name, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you talk to him also?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I talked with him but I do not believe we ever took an affidavit off him that I recall--may have.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he tell you that he picked up some empty hulls?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, he told me he picked them up and gave them to the officer. I remember the officer told me he had gotten the hulls from someone who gave them to him, and when I talked to Domingo, he said he was the one picked them up and give them to the officer.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring any of these men downtown?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask them----

Mr. LEAVELLE. I called later--Ted Callaway--bring the others down; however, I think the Negro porter there, whatever his name is, is the only one he brought.

Mr. BALL. You say you told him to bring the others down? Who did you tell to bring down?

Mr. LEAVELLE. The porter and this Domingo.

Mr. BALL. But he only brought----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Sam Guinyard.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why Domingo Benavides was never brought down for the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I think he said he never saw the man actually. I believe he said later on he did not see the man.

Mr. BALL. He testified here he saw the man running.

Mr. LEAVELLE. But he--either that or he told me he could not recognize him, one or the other.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a showup with Callaway and Guinyard?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, I do not recall the time but we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to see your notes here; would that refresh your memory? Here is a report that you made, also. [Papers to witness.]

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes, at 6:30 p.m. would be right.

Mr. BALL. 6:30 p.m.?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the audience side of the showup this time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. As far as I know there wasn't anyone other than Mr. Graves and myself, and I am not too sure he was there. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. Your notes say that Brown and Dhority were with you. Is that right?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I do not remember; it could have been.

Mr. BALL. Who was with the witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Who was with the witnesses?

Mr. BALL. What officer was with the witnesses?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, we were with them.

Mr. BALL. Who talked to them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Are you talking about the witnesses or the ones in the lineup?

Mr. BALL. No; I am talking about the witnesses.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Only two witnesses is Callaway and Guinyard and I talked with them.

Mr. BALL. You talked with them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who were the men in the showup this time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. These notes show that Billy Perry was No. 1; R. L. Clark, No. 2; and 4, Don Ables; and No. 2, Oswald.

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know they were on two different showups, so it is quite possible.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questions of the men in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I would think I would have been--the same line.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Ted Callaway said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Not per se; I know they were able to identify Oswald.

Mr. BALL. What was the substance of what he said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. You say "identify"; that doesn't mean much to me because I don't know what he identified him as.

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said he was the man; he identified him as the man he saw running from the direction where the shots came from over in the Oak Cliff area near his carlot.

Mr. BALL. What about Sam Guinyard?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Same thing, practically.

Mr. BALL. Did you take statements from them?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I believe I took affidavits from them, according to my notes, there while we were waiting for them to come down.

Mr. BALL. Did you also show them a jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I took them to the fourth floor and asked them to look at a jacket which----

Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162. Does that look anything like the jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. It looks like the jacket that I showed them; yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Callaway said when he saw the jacket?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly like it.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what Guinyard said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it was also the same type jacket.

Mr. BALL. Now then, did you do anything else that day on this investigation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall other than possibly answer the telephone in the office.

Mr. BALL. You went to work at what time Saturday morning, November 23, 1963?

Mr. LEAVELLE. It would be around 8 o'clock, I imagine.

Mr. BALL. And did you take some statements that day?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Chances are I may have, I do not remember.

Mr. BALL. Here is----

Mr. LEAVELLE. It says took one affidavit from R. S. Truly, supervisor of Texas School Book and the other of employee, Mrs. R. A. Reid.

Mr. BALL. You are refreshing your memory from a report that you made, is that correct?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you attend another showup that day?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; we held another showup that day which involved a cabdriver----

Mr. BALL. What's his name?

Mr. LEAVELLE. We later found out he was near the scene of the shooting and saw the shooting, also, W. W. Scoggins. We held a showup for him at 2:15 p.m.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone else with him at that time?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; there was another man who was another cabdriver, name of William Wayne Whaley [spelling].

Mr. BALL. Had you talked to him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had not talked to Whaley; no.

Mr. BALL. What officer talked to Whaley?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Whaley in the squadcar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up Scoggins in the squadcar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first see Whaley and Scoggins?

Mr. LEAVELLE. They came to the office, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down with them to the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure that I did. I do not recall but I am sure I must have.

Mr. BALL. Here's some other notes that you might look at to refresh your memory [notes to witness].

Mr. LEAVELLE. From these notes here it indicates I was there along with them at that time.

Mr. BALL. What is your memory? Is your memory different from the notes?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not remember who else was there, if anyone was.

Mr. BALL. You know that you were there with Scoggins and Whaley?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the men in the showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall who was in there. I know it says who was here but I could not tell you.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick those men?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; not at anytime did I have anything to do with picking the men in any of them.

Mr. BALL. This was your third showup in the course of your investigation of the murder of Tippit and the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; the third and the only three I had anything to do with.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I would have handled the speech of that also; asking them to say a few words.

Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That I do not recall either.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether they had coats on?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know in all cases we usually try to have them dressed as alike as possible, the same as each other.

Mr. BALL. What is your memory of this incident? Were they dressed anywhere near similar?

Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was, Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and wouldn't be quiet.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that. I don't know what he didn't say; he went on all the time.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say anything to you personally?

Mr. LEAVELLE. To me personally?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, of course. I asked him if he--if the man that he remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was up there and he said "Yes, the man in the T-shirt." Whether he was doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still knew him.

Mr. BALL. What did Scoggins say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said practically the same thing--the man in the T-shirt was the--or the No. 3 man was the man he had saw do the shooting.

Mr. BALL. Who said that?

Mr. LEAVELLE. That would have been Scoggins.

Mr. BALL. Did Whaley say--tell you whether or not he had ever seen this man before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He was supposed to have seen him I believe, but I do not recall what the circumstances were under which he saw him right offhand.

Mr. BALL. Where Scoggins saw him you remember, in other words, though?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; in other words, he was the one who said he was sitting there eating a sack of lunch parked near the corner when the shooting occurred.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 24, on Sunday morning, did you return to work about the same time, 8 o'clock, or so?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Little before 10, I believe, or something.

Mr. BALL. And, were you ordered by Captain Fritz to get Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I don't--I see here it says 9:30--whatever the official time was, I think it probably was maybe about that time.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to get Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had to go to the fourth floor jail.

Mr. BALL. Did you handcuff him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were his handcuffs in the front or in the rear?

Mr. LEAVELLE. In front.

Mr. BALL. Where were you taking him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Took him down the inside elevator to the third floor into Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that meeting in Captain Fritz's office?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I can recall, I believe during that time I was there there were several people in and out. I believe primarily myself and Mr. Graves and Dhority and Montgomery were in there most of the time, I don't know. We were in, probably might have stepped outside the door at one time or another but primarily we were around and also Mr. Kelley, Secret Service, and a man from the postal inspector's office. I cannot recall his name at this time. He should be on here--oh, yes, Mr. Sorrels, also, and Holmes of the postal department. Now, those people and Chief Curry came in once or twice. All those people may not have stayed in there constantly during the time but they were in there at some time or other.

Mr. BALL. Did these various people ask questions of Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know Mr. Sorrels did and I know Mr. Kelley did. I do not recall whether Mr. Holmes asked any questions or not and Captain Fritz asked him some.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Mr. Sorrels asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Remember what Mr. Kelley asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I can only remember one question Mr. Kelley asked him and that was whether or not he thought the attitude of the U.S. Government toward Cuba would be changed since the President has been assassinated. To my knowledge, that is the only one I can recall.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oswald turned and asked Captain Fritz, said "I am filed on for the President's murder, is that right?" And, Captain Fritz told him yes, and he told Mr. Kelley, he said "Under the circumstances, I don't believe that it would be proper." That might not be the words he used, but wouldn't be right, anyway, for him to answer that question because whatever he said might be construed in a different light than what he actually meant it to be, but he went on to say he felt like when the head of any government died or was killed, whatever, there was always a second in command who would take over and he said in this particular instance it would he Johnson. He said "So far as I know, Johnson's views and President Kennedy's views are the same", so, he would see no particular difference in the attitude of the U.S. Government toward Cuba. That's about the main--the only one, because he went into such detail on it, the only one I thought was a little elaborate for him to go into that type of answer, the reason I remembered it.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any question Captain Fritz asked him?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I remember that the captain asked him about the shooting of the President and the shooting of the officer; I know he did ask him that and I know Oswald did deny it, both times.

Mr. BALL. That he had shot President Kennedy and Tippit?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; he denied shooting either one. He did say this "If you want me to 'cop' out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when I was arrested", he said "Yeah, I plead guilty to that" but he--I do know that he denied the shooting of both the President and Tippit.

Mr. BALL. In that meeting did he ask for a lawyer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I know Captain Fritz asked him if at one time, if--he handed him a telegram--in fact. I believe it was sent by some attorney, if my memory serves me right, and he said he did not particularly want him but he would take that and if he didn't do any better he would contact him at a later time. I do not recall what lawyer it was. It seems like some lawyer in the East sent the telegram volunteering his services to Oswald.

Mr. BALL. That is there on Sunday morning, the 24th?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In the course of this meeting which you have been describing----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said that he preferred--he never had gotten in touch with this lawyer in New York City that represented the American Civil Liberties Union and he wanted to get in touch with him and said if he didn't do any better, or could not get him, he would like to talk with this man about it.

Mr. BALL. Can you remember any other questions asked Oswald by Captain Fritz?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No, not offhand; I would probably remember them if I heard the questions but I do not remember offhand.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody talk to him about the post office box?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; Mr. Kelley asked him several questions and probably Mr. Sorrels about the post office box, both here and one he had in Shreveport--wherever it was.

Mr. BALL. New Orleans?

Mr. LEAVELLE. New Orleans, yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Since you mentioned it, I do remember them talking to him about the New Orleans box and asking him about this other name, this----

Mr. BALL. Alek Hidell?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; and he asked him if he knew Alek Hidell; said he didn't know if he ever heard of the name. He never heard of that and asked him several questions along that line and then after he had denied all knowledge of Alek Hidell, Mr. Kelley asked him, said "Well, isn't it a fact when you were arrested you had an identification card with his name on it in your possession." He kind of grunted, said "Yes, that's right" and he said "How do you explain that?" And, as best my knowledge, he said "I don't explain it."

Mr. BALL. Anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they did. I remember some of them asking about the rifle and about it bring sent to the box here in Dallas but I do not recall. I am not sure he denied it but I do not recall what his exact denial was.

Mr. BALL. You say he denied it. Do you remember whether or not he denied that he had bought a rifle?

Mr. LEAVELLE. To the best of my knowledge I do. He did deny it but I would not swear to it.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said about a revolver?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I am sure they asked him something about the revolver, too, but I do not recall what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did he say whether or not he had a revolver in his possession at the time of his arrest?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall what the questions was along that line or even what the answers was. Like I say, I am sure that they did. It seems as though my memory tells me that he did not deny taking the revolver but there, again. I would not want to say definitely.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the conversation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I did not myself. That was the only time I ever sat in on the interrogations of him by Captain Fritz or anyone.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you had seen Oswald?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had seen him, of course, the first day he was arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him to and from the jail and, of course, I had saw him at the showups, what-have-you.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever talked to him before?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; I had never talked to him before.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any marks on his face when you first saw him on Friday, the 22nd of November?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, no; not that I recall. He--I know he had a black eye. I remember seeing that some time along the way but I do not recall when I first noticed it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about his black eye?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear him say anything to anyone as to how he received the black eye?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; I remember at one time when they were moving him. Of course, if you saw television that day, I am sure you saw what men we had in the hallway up there with the photographers and newsmen, all were sticking microphones out at arms' length and hollering questions at him, and at one time someone asked him how he got the black eye. He said "A cop hit me," but that was just a hollered response to some unknown question or unknown news-reporter asking him.

Mr. BALL. As you would move Oswald through the halls on the third floor from one room to another----

Mr. LEAVELLE. Actually, it wasn't from one room to the other; it would be from our office to the elevator which is some 20 feet.

Mr. BALL. On those occasions would the hallway he crowded with reporters, newsmen, and television cameramen?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; cameramen and television men all over the place; in fact, I was plumb up to my chin with those people.

Mr. STERN. How do you mean?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I was disgusted with them.

Mr. STERN. Would they not cooperate with your request to stand in a particular place?

Mr. LEAVELLE. No; if you ever slopped hogs and throw down a pail of slop and saw them rush after it you would understand what that was like up there--about the same situation.

Mr. BALL. I'm through. Do you have some more questions, Mr. Stern?

Mr. STERN. There was just no response. You asked them to cooperate with you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; they would be asked to stand back and stay back but wouldn't do much good, and they would push forward and you had to hold them off physically. Of course, I realize I am not running the police department but if I had been running it wouldn't have been nobody up there; like I say, I was fed up. Fact of the business, one time when I was trying to escort some witness out of there--I don't recall who it was at this time--but I was trying to get them through that crowd and taking them down the edge of the corridor and I stopped and I looked down and there was a joker had a camera stuck between my legs taking pictures so that's just some indication of how they acted.

Mr. STERN. Was any consideration given to clearing the corridor?

Mr. LEAVELLE. A lot of consideration was given to it by me but, of course, I didn't have anything to do with it.

Mr. STERN. Was it discussed?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I imagine just among the men up there. The officers working in the bureau probably did. I don't know whether it was discussed on a higher level or not. I have no knowledge of that.

Mr. STERN. There were actually television cameras in the corridor?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, yes.

Mr. STERN. Hand cameras or the large?

Mr. LEAVELLE. They had the big camera set on a tripod right at the entrance of that hallway leading up there which would give them a full view of the entire hallway.

Mr. STERN. What was your impression of Oswald and the way he handled himself throughout this period?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Like I say, the only time that I had any connections with Oswald was this Sunday morning. I never had occasion of hearing him being interrogated or had occasion to talk with him at anytime and, to my listening to him answering the questions that were propounded to him that particular morning, he gave me the impression of being a man with a lot better education than his formal education indicated. In other words, for instance the long elaboration that he went into on the Cuba deal would tell--indicate that he had a fairly better than high school education that he was reported to have had.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem to be in control of himself?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Oh, yes; he was in control of himself at all times. In fact, he struck me as a man who enjoyed the situation immensely and was enjoying the publicity and everything was coming his way.

Mr. STERN. He engaged in banter with you and the police officials?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Not with me because I didn't have occasion to question him, but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always had an answer.

Mr. STERN. How about on the occasions you were bringing him to or from the interrogations?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I did not indulge in any of that other than the one time and, of course, if I made any comments to him at that time, I do not remember what they were.

Mr. STERN. How about comments he made to you?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I know--I think possibly at one time he--that morning that I was bringing him down on Sunday morning that he may have asked me where he was going or if he was going back to Captain Fritz' office that morning, but aside from that, I do not recall anything else that he may have said or anything that I may have said to him in the course of the day.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall any complaints that he registered, any statements he made about his treatment, or----

Mr. LEAVELLE. No. I don't think he made any to us that morning we were moving him.

Mr. STERN. Did you receive the telegram that arrived Sunday morning or that was there Sunday morning about the offer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I had occasion to see it. I do not recall what it was. I think it is a matter of record somewhere.

Mr. STERN. It was there at the Sunday morning interrogation?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Yes; it was there and, in fact, I know the captain and I talked about it there a minute before I went up and got him, talked about informing him of this lawyer's request or offer. I said "Why not let him have the telegram, show him the telegram, let him read it himself," so, that's what the captain done--let him have the telegram.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall whether any of the witnesses at the showups at which you were present said that they had seen Oswald on television before they got to the police headquarters?

Mr. LEAVELLE. Well, I think it would have been impossible for anybody, any of them to see him with the exception of the two bus--cabdrivers. Now, the others may have, I don't recall, but the others all came down on the day of the assassination so I don't believe that they would have, but I know Helen Markham would not have because she was taken directly to city hall and had been there ever since it happened, so she would not, and I do not believe Mr. Callaway and the Negro porter, Sam Guinyard, would have had an opportunity, either.

Mr. STERN. In any event, you do not recall it?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I do not recall, but I am not saying it would not have happened.

Mr. STERN. That's all I have.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have Officer Leavelle's reports on the officer's duties filed as an exhibit to this deposition. It is marked "Pages 216, 217, 218, 219, 220." It is a part of the formal report of the Dallas Police Department concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and Officer Leavelle, your testimony will be written up by the shorthand reporter and will be submitted to you if you wish for you to read it and sign it, or, if you wish, you can waive your signature and it will be written up and forwarded to the Commission without your signature. How will you prefer?

Mr. LEAVELLE. I see no reason for me to sign it as long as it comes out like I put it down there.

Mr. BALL. If you have confidence in the reporter you can waive signature and we will send it on.

Mr. LEAVELLE. All right.

Mr. BALL. It is pages 216 through 220 of the formal report which is included in this Exhibit A. Thank you very much, Mr. Leavelle.

TESTIMONY OF W. E. BARNES

The testimony of W. E. Barnes was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please sit down. You can smoke if you want to.

Mr. BARNES. It causes lung cancer.

Mr. BELIN. I don't know if I formally introduced myself. I am David Belin, actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa, and about a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been with the President's Commission on the Assassination for most of the past 3 months as consultants, and that is how I happen to be down here in your city.

Would you please state your name for the record.

Mr. BARNES. W. E. Barnes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Route 2, Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BARNES. It is.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BARNES. I am a policeman for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular department?

Mr. BARNES. I am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you Sergeant Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Forty-two years.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Went to school here?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school?

Mr. BARNES. Graduate of Plano High School.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you were graduated from high school?

Mr. BARNES. I worked for an aircraft company in California, and went into the Merchant Marine Service.

Mr. BELIN. That was during World War II?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the merchant marine?

Mr. BARNES. Little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. Went to work for Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. That would be in 1947 or 1946?

Mr. BARNES. 1947.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been with them ever since?

Mr. BARNES. I have been.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BARNES. Two children, boy and a girl.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go on duty?

Mr. BARNES. I came at 7 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was your shift from 7 a.m., to----

Mr. BARNES. 3 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave at 3 p.m., on that day?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. When you first learned of the assassination or the shooting of the President, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. BARNES. I was in Dr. Bledsoe's office just finishing a dental appointment.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately drove to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time did you get there?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly after the President was assassinated.

Mr. BELIN. You had your appointment over the noon hour?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BARNES. I asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene?

Mr. BELIN. You had two men?

Mr. BARNES. At the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the scene, what do you mean?

Mr. BARNES. The scene of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Were they in a building there?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who those men were?

Mr. BARNES. Detective R. L. Studebaker and Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. When you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. Two men from our crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. What were you advised to do?

Mr. BARNES. I was told to standby until further notice.

Mr. BELIN. What was the next thing that occurred?

Mr. BARNES. Officer Tippit was shot at 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately went to the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene?

Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of Tippit's car for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car?

Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located?

Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right front fender.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the vehicle for fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might have placed his hands on there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything else at all out there?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience in photography?

Mr. BARNES. I have been in the crime scene search section doing this work since August 1, 1956.

Mr. BELIN. When you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb equipment or not?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. I assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment?

Mr. BARNES. We use flash equipment on the inside and outside when I think it is necessary.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of camera do you use?

Mr. BARNES. Speedgraphic.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often use?

Mr. BARNES. A lot of them do.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings?

Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not sure about that.

Mr. BELIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. BARNES. P-o-e, I believe is the way he spells it.

Mr. BELIN. You think he was the one that turned over some shells?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it is. I am not too sure right now, but I believe that is what is on the report. I would have to check it to be sure.

Mr. BELIN. Would these be on your report?

Mr. BARNES. It would be on our report, at the crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that was turned over to you at the scene besides these hulls that you think Patrolman Poe turned over?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can remember at this time.

Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found other than these two?

Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up?

Mr. BARNES. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what?

Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it up.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen?

Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What approximate location?

Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else out there?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took pictures of the Tippit vehicle?

Mr. BARNES. The what?

Mr. BELIN. Of the Tippit police car. You took pictures of that out there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the immediate vicinity of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What was that?

Mr. BARNES. I took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at the intersection of Patton and 10th. We had a report that we thought maybe that might have had some significance on the case.

I also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a jacket was discarded by the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that be?

Mr. BARNES. In the alley between Patton and the next street over.

Mr. BELIN. The next street to the west?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and the alley that ran between the two. I would have to check on the map. Cumberland--you got a street map?

Mr. BELIN. I have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment, I will try and get.

Mr. BARNES. I sure will. Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. We now have a map of Dallas, and you say that the jacket was found in the alley between Patton and Crawford? Where with relation to 10th or Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. It would be between Jefferson and 10th in the alley that separates those two streets, and running from Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. You say running from Patton and Crawford. You mean parallel?

Mr. BARNES. It runs parallel to Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Parallel to Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. Between Patton and Crawford. Was there a Texaco station around there at all?

Mr. BARNES. There is a service station right south of it. The kind of station that it is, I don't recall the kind of station it was, but there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket was discarded. We got photos of this car where the jacket was found just behind it.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

(Discussion off the record for selection of pictures.)

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Barnes, I am going to hand you some pictures which we will mark as "Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, and E" on the deposition of Barnes, and I am going to ask you to state whether or not the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by you?

Mr. BARNES. They were.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first one, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A, is a picture of the Dallas Police squadcar No. 10. Was that the Tippit automobile?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40.

Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the way that you found the car when you got there?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?

Mr. BARNES. That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted persons names on.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on this clipboard?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we never read his clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. That is the way you saw the clipboard there?

Mr. BARNES. That is the way it was.

Mr. BELIN. It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard. Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any memorandum paper on the board?

Mr. BARNES. I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A?

Mr. BARNES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be relevant?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I know.

Mr. BELIN. I am now turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit B. What is Exhibit B?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and also blood on the street where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B, the spot of blood where you say Tippit fell?

Mr. BARNES. (Circles.)

Mr. BELIN. You have circled that in ink. Now going back to Barnes Deposition Exhibit A: earlier, Sergeant Barnes, you said that you tried to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the car. I wonder if on Barnes Deposition Exhibit A with a red pencil you could show us the general area where you found the smears?

Mr. BARNES. [Marks with red pencil on photo.]

Mr. BELIN. You put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window, and also what I will call the right part of the top of the right-front fender near where the headlight is.

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean?

Mr. BARNES. Dirty.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way affects your ability to lift fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting a latent print.

Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints?

Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found.

Mr. BELIN. When you came to the scene, Officer Tippit had already been removed?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B that you think is relevant?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit C, could you state what this is, please?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture of squad car No. 10, which was driven by Tippit, a more distant shot showing where Tippit fell, and the scene where the squad car was.

Mr. BELIN. Had the Tippit car been moved at any time during the taking of any of these pictures by you?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition Exhibit C that you want to further discuss at this time?

Mr. BARNES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit D, will you state what this is?

Mr. BARNES. That is a side view of the Tippit car.

Mr. BELIN. That is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You see the houses in the background which would be roughly to the south, is that right?

Mr. BARNES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. This is a picture of the car as you found it?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember whether or not the window on the driver's side was up or down?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it was down.

Mr. BELIN. Was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; Tippit's Eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them, was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit E, would you state what this is?

Mr. BARNES. This is a shot from the south looking northward at the front of the Tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. This has a caption on it, "Spot where Patrolman Tippit fell." Does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer?

Mr. BARNES. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition Exhibit E that you want to discuss now?

Mr. BARNES. No. I made that one [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. You are now referring to Barnes Deposition Exhibit F, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What is that a picture of?

Mr. BARNES. That shows the rear of the Tippit car, left rear, and also a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we introduce in evidence Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F, and I will just have these copies with the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. We won't ask you to make copies of these.

Now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, I will ask you to examine Commission Exhibits Nos. Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, and ask you to state whether or not there appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that appear to show that they were examined or identified by you?

Mr. BARNES. I placed "B", the best that I could, inside of the hull of Exhibit 74--I believe it was Q-74 and Q-75, as you have them identified.

Mr. BELIN. Now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case hulls, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? You can identify it that way?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, did you identify out there?

Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain Doughty received the third.

Mr. BELIN. The two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you put this identification mark on the inside of?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark?

Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen.

Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. It looks like there are others that put their markings in there too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with identifying either the slugs that were eventually removed from Officer Tippit's body, or the pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. You never put any identifying marks on those. Is there anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. We made a crime sketch of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. You made a crime sketch of the scene?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BARNES. No; not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with those cartridge case hulls, Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. We placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over to the FBI. I believe Special Agent Drain of the FBI was the agent that took them.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that might be relevant with regard to your work at the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. None. Not at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when did leave there?

Mr. BARNES. I don't know the exact hour that I left there, that I got through.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. I went on a major accident at Veterans Drive and Ledbetter.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go after that?

Mr. BARNES. Back to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any other pictures that day?

Mr. BARNES. I don't believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation of the President's assassination or the murder of Officer Tippit at any other time on either Saturday the 23d or Sunday the 24th up to the time of the shooting of Oswald by Jack Ruby?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do those?

Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I finished with the Tippit car pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Would you include that as part of the Tippit investigation?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; that was in the same part.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the spot where you say this jacket was found?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th and Patton and the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found.

Mr. BELIN. But other than that, you then went to the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the Texas Theatre, had Oswald or the person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the interior of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular position of it that you remember?

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