Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) (part 5 of 5)

Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) (part 5 of 5)

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is when he asked where the grocery store was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. What else?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he didn't say anything about going to get the rest of his things. I think that he must have been--said that after he came back with the other bag.

Mr. JENNER. Must have said what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Where was the grocery store, after he come back and got the other----

Mr. JENNER. So, your recollection presently serves you that he paid you the $7 and no further conversation took place?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. He turned and left the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I--he was--I was in the room, I just walked out.

Mr. JENNER. You walked out after the transaction, financially, was complete?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I went and he paid--he had already paid me but I wanted him to put his name on here.

Mr. JENNER. On your register?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On this [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. He did that----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; in the living room.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection was that he wrote the words "Lee Oswald"?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Then did he leave your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; huh.

Mr. JENNER. Without saying anything to you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And he was gone--did he return?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; within about 40 minutes, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. And he was gone about 40 minutes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And got the rest of his things.

Mr. JENNER. When he returned did you see him before he entered your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having seen him before he entered his room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. When did you become aware of the fact he had returned?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I must have heard him, or he might have come in and put his milk in the icebox.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he didn't get the milk, as far as I recall, until you'd advised him where the grocery store was.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. That was after he had returned from the----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. From the----

Mr. JENNER. After this 40-minute interval? I am just sticking for the moment to the time that he returned to your home after 40 minutes.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. He had put his name in your register and in your presence, in the living room, and turned and left your home and returned in 40 minutes; now, is that right? It's that point that I am concentrating on. When did you become aware that he had returned on that occasion and how?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know--I guess he come and put the things in the icebox. I don't even remember where I was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. So, that you didn't see him return to your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't see him come in.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't see him come in?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't know what he had with him at that point?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability where was he in your home when you became aware of his presence on his return after that 40 minutes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I must have been in the kitchen and he came back there and put the milk in, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have milk with him after he returned that 40 minutes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, not the 40 minutes. That was the bag.

Mr. JENNER. See, this is what I'm trying to concentrate on for the moment, before you get the milk. And I am trying to take it sequentially. He paid the $7 and signed the register in your living room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And without any further words to you he turned and left your home, is that accurate?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that's about right.

Mr. JENNER. He returned in 40 minutes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Now, sticking right to that point, when did you become aware of the fact that he was then back in your home, that is, at that point?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That he--he hadn't gotten the milk yet?

Mr. JENNER. No; this is when he first returned.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know. I was just around the house. I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. JENNER. So, I take it, then, when he made that first trip back, you didn't see him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know what he had with him on that occasion?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he had the bag, didn't he?

Mr. JENNER. I want to stick with what you knew at that instant of time. What you found out afterwards, I'll go into that in a moment.

You didn't see him return?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know what he had with him when he returned?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. At that instance, because you didn't see him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. But, you were aware; now, you became aware of the fact that he did return?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with him at that point?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. When did you become aware and I gather from your earlier testimony you became aware that he had brought that into your home, or there was in your home some additional luggage. When you first saw him he had this soft canvas bag, or canvas bag, whether it was soft or not that is uncertain.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then you became aware later that day that there was another piece of luggage, and, am I correct about that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, I think he said he was going to get some more. He was going to get some more and he had some boots, too, in his hand. I--maybe he brought those the last time. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of boots?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, they looked like they were about up to here [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. Up to the knee?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about there [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. Oh,----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. There.

Mr. JENNER. Just a little above the ankle?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. About 3 inches above the ankle?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know what they used them for.

Mrs. JENNER. Were they cowboy boots.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't cowboy boots.

Mr. JENNER. Were they canvas, leather, or rubber?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just leather.

Mr. JENNER. Heavy-soled?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Heavy-soled.

Mr. JENNER. Heavy-soled. Rubber soles?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no; leather.

Mr. JENNER. Any hobnails in them?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Hard heel or flat heel? I mean, flat sole and heel?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, they had a heel, too. I remember them having that. He must have brought those in when he brought those the last time.

Mr. JENNER. You do not recall his having the boots at the time you first--at the first time you talked to him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. But, you became aware of the boots afterward?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. At, or about, or after the time he returned from this 40-minute absence?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And was it at the time you noticed the boots, did you also notice that he had additional items of luggage?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he went to get the luggage.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't know whether he did or not. I know he--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a thought in mind when he left after he paid you the $7 and signed your register that he was going somewhere to obtain additional articles of clothing?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I thought that.

Mr. JENNER. You thought that? He didn't say anything to you about that, however?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he didn't say anything. Didn't talk much.

Mr. JENNER. It is clear in your mind that he just turned around after you finished the transaction and left and returned in 40 minutes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I thought he said he had to get some groceries, but maybe that was after he got the luggage, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. You had become aware that afternoon that he had additional articles of luggage?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Come in about 3, about 4 he got the rest of the luggage.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this additional article of luggage, would you describe it, as compared with----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any----

Mr. JENNER. Please. As compared with this canvas bag, blue in color, that you just told me about?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay no attention to it at all. It was just a piece of luggage.

Mr. JENNER. Well, was it a----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't----

Mr. JENNER. What I would call a suitcase or what you might call a suitcase?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't a regular suitcase, but just something inexpensive, just something the boys have, and I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. JENNER. Was it hard-sided?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was a--you know, it was weak, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. It was weak. Was it strong enough so that it had a rectangular shape?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You know what I mean by suitcase?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It is reasonably firm and hard, and has a handle on it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it wasn't that way. One of those inexpensive kind of things, but I don't know whether it was canvas or what.

Mr. JENNER. Was it firmer in shape than the canvas bag you have described to me that he had earlier?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. Well, I think it was chuck full.

Mr. JENNER. You know it was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. It was, I remember. I don't----

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. One of them was blue, and I don't know which one or anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Miss DOUTHIT. Let me ask her something.

Mary, would it help you to remember this if you would just begin, you were out in the yard, and you went around and interviewed this man there, did you stand in the yard, or go in your room and talk? Did he put up his things then before he came across the hall to talk to you? When did he ask you about groceries? After he signed your register did he go back in his room and hang his clothes up, or what happened? Would it help if you just sit here idly without anybody asking you questions and see? Did you go back out in the yard after he paid you the money, and while he was gone--if you can, just retrace your steps without anybody interrupting you. Could you begin and go again out in the yard, and went around and saw this man here, and he told you he wanted to rent a room, whether you stood on the porch and talked to him, or whether he brought his things and you went on and showed him the room? How far is the room from where your front door was? If you go down a hall, how far? Did you go over there and talk to him and make arrangements about the rent of the room? Did he hang up his clothes while he was in the room?

Did he--if you can just trace your steps and give it to him. I ask you to do that, and I know it is confusing, but that's all he wants.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I am getting tired.

Miss DOUTHIT. All he wants is the truth, and I thought maybe you might, for the sake of the record, you know----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I would have--we have said most everything.

Miss DOUTHIT. I know it, but just do it one more time. The man was standing at your front door----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I am getting tired, because I have had a stroke, you see.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did you go back out in the yard?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I stayed in.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did he leave your house twice? Now, you said he went and got a bag and brought it back?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; he did, brought back the bag.

Miss DOUTHIT. Then he went back again?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Miss DOUTHIT. How long was he--all I want to know is just, if you can just tell that in your own words without any questions. Could you just do that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I'd rather they asked, because----

Miss DOUTHIT. I know, but it is hard for them to ask these particular questions, because they don't know exactly what happened. All they want to do is to say that you were in the room with him, and put this little bag down and hung up his clothes, and came across the hall and signed the register, see.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that's all. I don't know whether he put his clothes and what in the other room. I don't know whether he put his bag----

Miss DOUTHIT. Was there a closet in there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT. Well, were you with him when he put the clothes in the closet, or did you go on across the hall and leave him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no; I didn't pay any attention to him.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave his presence--Mary, pardon me, I am not--this is not for the record.

Mr. JENNER. No; that's fine, leave it on the record.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right. When the man was on your front porch.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT. He had a blue bag in there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Miss DOUTHIT. And you don't know whether it was round or bulging, you just don't know?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. You don't know whether it had a long strap or a little handle, do you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it had a handle.

Miss DOUTHIT. But, it wasn't one you sling over your shoulder?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, can you go ahead?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Clothes were sort of hanging over here [indicating].

Miss DOUTHIT. Uh-huh. Not covered or anything?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. You couldn't tell anybody about what color the clothes were, could you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did you stand in the yard and talk to the young man? Or immediately go into the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I immediately--I was talking to him, but I had to go in immediately, because he wanted to see the room.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right. How far is it, Mrs. Bledsoe, from where you met this man at the front door until you showed him the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is about 25 foot, and all that time I had to size him up, you see.

Miss DOUTHIT. You were talking to him as you went down the hall?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; getting----

Miss DOUTHIT. Is that where you learned that he was married, as you were walking down the hall?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he told me he was married before we went in the house.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, then, when you got to the room, did you both walk inside the room, or stand in the door and talk?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I stood in the door, and he went in and looked at it and took it.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did he keep his clothes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention.

Miss DOUTHIT. When he was talking to you, you don't know what he did, just stood and talked to you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave his presence before he came into your room and signed the register?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, that, Melody----

Miss DOUTHIT. Were you with him? And took him into the room, and----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Says, "I'll take the room."

Miss DOUTHIT. Did you leave him in the room and you go on across to your room? How far is your room from where you rented his room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right next to it. No; he came on in, he came on back behind me.

Miss DOUTHIT. He never left your presence from the time you went in this room until he came over here?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, did he put his things in your room--or bring them with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he left them in the room.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, you don't know where he put them?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't pay any attention to him.

Miss DOUTHIT. Is there a closet in that room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT. You don't remember whether he hung his clothes in the closet?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. But, he left and came over where you were and signed your register, and then did he go back into his room or go down the hall and leave the house?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, went back in his room.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right. You don't know how long he stayed in his room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. Now, before he left your room, did he tell you anything about going and getting additional luggage, or did you know when he was leaving the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I didn't know. He said he was going to get some groceries but it might have been that he said that he was going, I don't know. I don't know.

Miss DOUTHIT. Was it when he signed the register that he asked you about the grocery store, or later?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Later.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right. Then you were in your room when he went back in his room. Did you see him leave his room and go out of the house?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT. Then where did you go?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Lord have mercy. I don't know.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did you go back out in the yard?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't think I went into the yard. I was fooling around the house.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, how far from your room is your kitchen?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, Lord. It is a long ways. It is clear across the living room and dining room and the kitchen is right there [indicating].

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, but your room is right next to the room you rented to this man?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Miss DOUTHIT. When did you have knowledge that he was back in his room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, when--I guess when he brought these--brought the milk in.

Miss DOUTHIT. How could he go to the grocery store and get milk unless he had already asked you where the grocery store was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he did, he had already.

Miss DOUTHIT. Okay, then, it was on his return from getting the bag that he asked you about the grocery store, is that right? Or do you remember?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes; it wasn't anything said about this when he rented--about eating. Just--he just rented the room, and not to eat in there.

Miss DOUTHIT. Now when you had some kind of knowledge, as you just said, could you hear him back in his room, or could you see him back in his room after he left the first time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I heard him.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did he come in and talk to you before he left your house the second time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he never did talk to me at all. He didn't talk.

Miss DOUTHIT. The only conversation you had with this Mrs.--with this Mr. Oswald was when he came and rented the room and signed the register?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And what I got out of him. That's all I could get.

Miss DOUTHIT. Now; did you get any information out of him after he signed the register?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, the next day.

Miss DOUTHIT. I am talking about this one day.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't get much.

Miss DOUTHIT. Then all of your conversation that you had this Monday that he rented that room took place at one time, is that correct?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's correct.

Miss DOUTHIT. Now, he came back, and for some reason you knew he was in there. When did he leave your house the second time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he went to get the groceries.

Miss DOUTHIT. Well, when?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know.

Miss DOUTHIT. Was he--when he went to leave, did he come in and say, "I'm going to get some groceries." Did he?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Miss DOUTHIT. You evidently told him about the grocery store the first time when he signed the register and your conversation with him--

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't either.

Miss DOUTHIT. Well, you just said you had one conversation with him, and you had no other conversation with him. Now, just remember these facts that you had no conversation with him after he paid you the money and signed the register.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I wouldn't say, because I don't know what he did. I don't remember.

Miss DOUTHIT. All right, how long after--when he brought his bag back and put it in this room, how long did he stay in that room until he left to go to the grocery store, if that is where he went?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was that the first when he went and got the other bag?

Miss DOUTHIT. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, 20 or 30 minutes.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did he go and use the telephone, or just stay in his room all that time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, didn't use the phone until--I think he used it after.

Miss DOUTHIT. Did he use your telephone on Monday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. After the, yes; after he got everything settled, I think he did. Two or three times every day. Called his wife, supposed to be.

Miss DOUTHIT. You don't know who he called?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't know who he called.

Miss DOUTHIT. But, you don't know anything at all about when you gave him this information about the grocery store? We are just trying to get the order here in which this happened, Mrs. Bledsoe, is all, if you can just remember?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, Lord.

Miss DOUTHIT. That is the reason I asked you if you could, to write these things down.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. I am sorry, but I thought in--I might help you.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make a telephone call after he became settled?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. On the 8th of October?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I wouldn't say for sure, but I guess he did, because he called his wife, supposedly--supposed to have been all the time, but in the morning he called some people about jobs.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because he talked on the phone and talked gruff, talked gruff to those on the phone, and talked about a job. I heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Then, one of the occasions when the gentleman interviewed you--were Secret Service and FBI people--there is a notation that you recalled that on Monday afternoon that he did call his wife?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Now, does that refresh your recollection, that he did call her the same day that he moved in here on----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I guess he did, uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And, were you aware of the fact that he was using the telephone?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, I told him he could use the phone to get him a job and call his wife.

Mr. JENNER. And were you aware of any occasion on Monday when you had your own mental conception that he was actually talking with his wife?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it didn't--I wasn't interested at all. He--I wasn't--I didn't think about it at all. When I got interested is when he called, talking in that foreign language.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the first time you heard him talking in the foreign language was when?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I can guess, it was a Wednesday.

Mr. JENNER. Wednesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Wednesday afternoon, but he came on----

Mr. JENNER. Now, so you assume that the other calls he made on Monday, since he did not, I take it, did not speak in a foreign language, or you didn't hear him speak in a foreign language on Monday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear him do so on Tuesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. First time you heard him to do that was Wednesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. Ask her if she ever heard him talk to anybody on the telephone in English. That is what----

Mr. JENNER. Well, I have assumed that you did hear him talk with people on the telephone using the English language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, was about jobs, about getting a job. He called people to get jobs, and then he would become almost mad, and sometimes he was mad.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't know, but he was mad.

Mr. JENNER. About what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. About what they were talking about. He would get in a bad humor, and then the day he made that call, he----

Mr. JENNER. Which call?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That call.

Mr. JENNER. Wednesday? The call in which he spoke in a foreign language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was real mad.

Mr. JENNER. He was angry with the person to whom he was speaking over the telephone?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. But, you couldn't understand what he was saying?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know whether he was angry with the person, or angry with someone else and explaining it to the person on the phone about something in anger?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I know he talked in a--he talked in a, I guess it was a foreign language, and I don't know what it was.

Mr. JENNER. Just sounded irritated?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him in possession, either in his room, or carrying a long object wrapped in paper or a blanket or----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or something as long as 45 inches long?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Seven or eight inches wide?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't have anything like that with him.

Mr. JENNER. Anything that you thought could be curtain rods or----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Or shades that are on the spring, did he ever have any package that looked as though that sort of thing might be contained in it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing of that nature in his room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you describe the room? Was it tastefully decorated or--shades, curtains? There was no need for him to have any--bring anything in to decorate that room, was there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do so?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Brought nothing in of that nature?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And there was no discussion with you on that subject?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You do have a distinct recollection, do you, that he was there on Friday, that would be the 11th, I think?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Friday. That is the day that he stayed in his room all day.

Mr. JENNER. Stayed in his room all day long?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just went to the bathroom and came back.

Mr. JENNER. That was Friday, October 11?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. On the 12th, that would be Saturday the 12th of October, did he receive any phone calls?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell me about that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I think he called somebody--somebody called him, and I judged it was his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Did you answer the phone, or did he?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son answered.

Mr. JENNER. Your son answered the phone?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And he called him to the phone, and seemed like that she was going to have a child and----

Mr. JENNER. Did you gather this from what you heard him say?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. From what they said.

Mr. JENNER. From his end of the conversation?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. From him, and then I thought he was going to move, and you see, I was tickled to death, so, then said, "Well, I will meet her," or, said that he would meet her, said he would go to the hospital and meet her, see, but he didn't never get to it, I judged that is what he said.

Mr. JENNER. You heard enough of the conversation that you have the recollection that he said something about his wife possibly having to go to the hospital?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For the delivery of her child?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was this the first time you had any knowledge that his wife was with child?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything about that to him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't mention it. I never did mention about that man talking to him either, because it wasn't any of my business.

Mr. JENNER. Which man?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. This man who called and talked to him in the foreign language. I never did see him.

Mr. JENNER. How did you know it was a man?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I just judged that it was.

Mr. JENNER. You heard his end of the conversation? He was talking in a foreign language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You assumed from that that whoever was on the other line was likewise talking in a foreign language, and you assumed a man, though you didn't know?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know, so, I didn't say that, because I don't know, but I never did say anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. I believe that's about all I have.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. What time is it? I'm tired.

Mr. BALL. It is 5 minutes until 11.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he is going to ask something, too, and I will be up here at 12.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, this deposition will be written up by the reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we will have it written up and send it to the Commission as it is.

Do you have any preference that way? Do you want her to waive the signature?

Miss DOUTHIT. I think she can waive it. I don't see any reason for her to sign it.

Mr. BALL. Then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive the signature?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Fine. You will know that you won't be bothered any more then.

Thank you very much, Mrs. Bledsoe.

Mr. JENNER. We do want you to know that we appreciate your coming in.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM W. WHALEY

The testimony of William W. Whaley was taken at 1:50 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, please.

Mr. WHALEY. William W. Whaley.

Mr. BELIN. You live in Dallas, Mr. Whaley?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You previously testified before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now before you came to Washington, did you and I ever meet?

Mr. WHALEY. Your face is familiar, sir. I still can't tell you whether I knew you here, or in Washington, or where?

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this.

Mr. WHALEY. You refresh my memory.

Mr. BELIN. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to Washington, approximately?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't remember the exact date.

Mr. BELIN. You testified before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in Washington, did you not?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now Mr. Ball and I were with you earlier today over the noon hour, is that correct?

Mr. WHALEY. That's correct, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Ball and I saw you in Washington, is that correct?

Mr. WHALEY. Now I don't know if that is correct or not, but your face is very familiar.

Mr. BELIN. You think you have seen me before?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. It might have been in Washington when you were there?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it could have been.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, today at noon there were six people including yourself that got in the car to travel that route that you drove a passenger on November 22, is that correct?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. One of them is sitting here in this room, Dr. Goldberg, over there. Do you see him?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you and I got in the car, and then Secret Service Agent John Joe Hewlett. We drove in his car and he was the driver, wasn't he?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then there was Mr. Joe Ball, Joseph A. Ball, and then a Mr. Davis, this tall light-haired person?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Davis is from the attorney general's office in Texas.

Now what is the fact as to whether or not we went to the Greyhound Bus Depot here in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you point out the place where you said you picked up this passenger?

Mr. WHALEY. I did, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We had a stopwatch, didn't we?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you directed us to take a certain route, is that correct?

Mr. WHALEY. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. What was the route from the Greyhound Bus Depot that you directed us?

Mr. WHALEY. On the right from the Greyhound and Lamar to Jackson; right on Jackson and left at Austin and right at Wood.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. WHALEY. Then left on Houston, which is the approach to the viaduct.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to Houston?

You turned left?

Mr. WHALEY. I said west to Houston.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go?

Mr. WHALEY. You go on the approach past the Union Terminal and up the ramp which is called the Houston Street viaduct.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. WHALEY. You run into Zangs Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. How far on Zangs?

Mr. WHALEY. To Beckley. Beckley crosses it. We got to the intersection of Zangs and Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. Did we go about the speed you drove that day?

Mr. WHALEY. Almost. Going across the viaduct is just about the speed, but he slowed down going up Zangs Boulevard. He slowed down a little slower than I was going.

My normal rate of speed, I don't remember the exact speed I was traveling, but I assume it was normal, because that is the way I travel all the time when traffic is clear enough.

Mr. BELIN. Your normal rate of speed would be a little bit faster than the rate that he took?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In other words, not enough to make over half a minute difference in the timing.

Mr. BELIN. Was traffic clearer on that particular day of November 22?

Mr. WHALEY. It was extra clear, for some reason. That street was clear except when I hit Beckley. When I hit Beckley, there was cars turning to the left, and I had to stop for the light.

Mr. BELIN. When we got to Beckley at noon today, or shortly thereafter, the traffic light was green, but you told us you had stopped, so we waited through the red light, did we not?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then he turned on Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Heading south?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now when this man that you picked up on November 22 got into your cab, where did he say he wanted to go?

Mr. WHALEY. To the 500 block of North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. I will take you back to November 22.

You turned south on Beckley and then where did you go as you turned south on Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. I went right up on Beckley headed toward the 500 block.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. WHALEY. When I got to Beckley almost to the intersection of Beckley and Neely, he said, "This will do right here," and I pulled up to the curb.

Mr. BELIN. Was that the 500 block of North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that was the 700 block.

Mr. BELIN. You let him out not at the 500 block but the 700 block of North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had you crossed Neely Street yet when you let him off?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far north of Neely street did you let the man off?

Mr. WHALEY. About 20 feet.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went down to the police station to identify this man?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw a lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number he was in the lineup at all?

Mr. WHALEY. There was four of them, sir, and from the right to the left, he was No. 3.

Mr. BELIN. Starting from the right to the left, from his right or your right?

Mr. WHALEY. From your right, sir, which would have been his left. There were numbers above their heads, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Whaley, what number did you say the man was in the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. From the right or from your right?

Mr. WHALEY. From my left.

Mr. BELIN. No. 2?

Mr. WHALEY. They brought out four of them and stood them up there, and he was under No. 2. I mentioned he was the third one that come out. There were four and all handcuffed together.

Mr. BELIN. Did you sign an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I will hand you a document which I am calling Whaley Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to say if your signature appears on there?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is my signature.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice in the statement there it says that you traveled Wood Street to Houston Street, turned left and went over the viaduct to Zangs Boulevard. You see that statement there?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped."

Now is that what you told them on that day?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day.

Mr. BELIN. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound Bus Station * * *"

Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man?

Mr. WHALEY. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. You signed this affidavit before you saw the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, now, let's get this straight. You are getting me confused.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I will put it this way. There was an FBI reporter, FBI interviewer with you?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. BELIN. And there was an interview with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes. And Bill Alexander from the district attorney's office was there, also.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, the last sentence.

Mr. WHALEY. Let me tell you how they fixed this up. They had me in the office saying that. They were writing it out on paper, and they wrote it out on paper, and this officer, Leavelle, I think that is his name, before he finished and before I signed he wanted me to go with him to the lineup, so I went to the lineup, and I come back and he asked me which one it was, which number it was, and I identified the man, and we went back up in the office again, and then they had me sign this. That is as near as I can remember.

My recollection for that afternoon in that office was very disturbed because everytime they would open the door, some flash camera would flash in your face and everybody coming in and out and asking you questions.

Mr. BELIN. You mean reporters?

Mr. WHALEY. I made this statement more to Bill Alexander, because I tried to talk to him more. Everybody was trying to talk to me at once.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the statement the first time, did you see the statement before you went down to see the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. No; I didn't see the statement. I don't think I did. I am not for sure.

I think I signed it after I came back. It was on paper. They were writing it up on paper.

Mr. BELIN. They were writing?

Mr. WHALEY. Before I left there, I signed this typewritten, because they had to get, a stenographer typed it up. I had to wait.

Mr. BELIN. But was this before or after you saw the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. After she typed it up. It was after.

Mr. BELIN. It was after?

Mr. WHALEY. That is when I signed it, after.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you signed it--what I want to know is, before you went down, had they already put on there a statement that the man you saw was the No. 3 man in the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't remember that. I don't remember whether it said three or two, or what.

Mr. BELIN. Did they have any statements on there before you went down to the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. I never saw what they had in there. It was all written out by hand. The statement I saw, I think, was this one, and that could be writing. I might not even seen this one yet. I signed my name because they said that is what I said.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Whaley----

Mr. WHALEY. I know, sir, but I don't think you can understand what I had to put up with that afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with the press?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; with everything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I do understand, sir, and I appreciate that you were under a great deal of pressure at that time, and I want to try and get at the actual facts, and that is why we asked you to come back to testify again, because we wanted to know basically whether or not the man that you drove in the cab got off in the 500 block or the 700 block.

Mr. WHALEY. The man I drove in the cab got off where I told you he got off, this morning.

I picked him up, and I showed you where I picked him up, and the trip runs 95 cents on the meter. He gave me a dollar and got off and he never spoke a word to me, except he wanted to go to 500 North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember a woman coming up to the cab?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember that.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. WHALEY. The lady, I don't remember whether she was very old, but she was middle-aged. She bent down and stuck in and said, "Can I have this cab?" And he cracked the door open like he was going to get out. I thought he was going to let her have it.

I told her there would be another one, and she said, "Would you please call me one."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to the woman, that you can remember?

Mr. WHALEY. When she wanted to know if she could have the cab, I don't know, but I got a faint hunch he did tell her she could have this one, or something like that. What it was, I was watching my left-hand side. I wanted to pull out when the light changed.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you saw a lineup down at the police station----

Mr. WHALEY. He didn't have on the same clothes. He had on a white T-shirt and black pants, and that is all he had on.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember now whether the man that you saw there was the No. 2 or the No. 3 man?

Mr. WHALEY. I will admit he was No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. No. 2 from your left, or from your right?

Mr. WHALEY. He was the third man out in the line of four as they walked out in a line. They put the first man out on the right, and the last one on my left, and as near as I can remember, he was No. 2, but it was the man I hauled.

Mr. BELIN. It says here the No. 3.

Mr. WHALEY. Well, I am not trying to mix nobody up. I'm giving it to you the best of my ability.

Mr. BELIN. Your memory right now is that it was the No. 2 man?

Mr. WHALEY. That is the way it is right now. I don't think it will change again.

But on that afternoon, all I saw was the man that I hauled up there, and they asked me which number he was, and I said No. 2. I am almost sure I did, but I couldn't get up to swear to it that I did, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Just one more minute, if you would, please?

Mr. Whaley, earlier in your testimony here you said that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 3. Do you remember saying that?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; but I meant that he was the third one out when they walked out with him. I said from my right.

Mr. BELIN. From your right he was No. 3?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What number was over his head?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, they--when they walked over the line and they stopped him, No. 2 was over his head, but he was pulling on both of the other men on each side and arguing with this detective, so he didn't stay under any certain number.

He was moving like that.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him later on television?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You never did see his picture in the paper?

Mr. WHALEY. I saw his picture in the paper the next morning, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would have been Sunday morning, the 24th?

Mr. WHALEY. I guess it was, if you say it was, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I don't want to----

Mr. WHALEY. I don't want to get you mixed up and get your whole investigation mixed up through my ignorance, but a good defense attorney could take me apart. I get confused. I try to tell you exactly what happened, to the best of my ability, when they brought Oswald out in the lineup of four. He was the third man out. I don't know which way they count them.

Mr. BELIN. We don't want you to be concerned about affecting the investigation one way or the other by what you say. What we want you to say is tell us what you know, to the best of your recollection.

Mr. WHALEY. That is exactly what I am doing, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. What day of the week did you take this cab passenger, on a Friday or Saturday?

Mr. WHALEY. I would have to see my trip sheet.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the day of the motorcade?

Mr. WHALEY. The day of the President's parade, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was it that day that you went down to the police station to see the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the next day?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The next day you went down to the Dallas Police Station and saw a lineup of how many people?

Mr. WHALEY. Four people.

Mr. BELIN. These men came out and there were numbers above their heads?

Mr. WHALEY. The numbers were stationary. Looked through a black silk screen at them. In other words, they were very dim, the numbers.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see as the number over the man that you identified as having been in your cab that day?

Mr. WHALEY. No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see a picture of that man in the paper at any time?

Mr. WHALEY. Saturday morning, sir; following the event on Friday.

Mr. BELIN. You saw his picture in the paper?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was that the same man that you identified as No. 2 in the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see his picture in the paper again?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I take that back, sir. I saw the picture in the paper when they had, when Ruby killed him at the time between the two detectives.

Mr. BELIN. Was the man in connection with the Ruby matter with the two detectives, did it have his name in the paper as Lee Harvey Oswald? Was his name in the paper then when you saw his picture?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, I don't think they had it that way. I think they just had it Oswald. I am not sure what they had under it. I am not for sure, but I did see the picture.

Mr. BELIN. Was that the same man you carried in your cab on Friday?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was that the man you identified at the police station?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It is your best recollection, if I understand it, that this was the No. 2 man in the lineup?

Mr. WHALEY. That's right, sir. That was from the left now. No. 2 from my left. I was facing him.

Mr. BELIN. Right. I mean correct. Now, your affidavit which is Whaley's Deposition Exhibit A, the last sentence says, "The No. 3 man who I now know as Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound bus station to the 500 block of North Beckley." Now you say it was the No. 2 man from your left, is that correct?

Mr. WHALEY. From my left. No. 3 from my right.

Mr. BELIN. What about whether or not you carried him to the 500 block of North Beckley. Did you carry him there?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. That is where he asked me. That is where I put on my trip sheet.

Mr. BELIN. You had it on the trip sheet the 500 block of North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you put it on your trip sheet, before or after you let him out?

Mr. WHALEY. After, sir; a good while after.

Mr. BELIN. Why?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, see, sometimes when you are busy you make three or four trips before you ever write one up.

Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you put it on your trip sheet for 700 instead of 500 North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Because that is what he told me and that is what I remember when I wrote the trip up. I imagine there were hundreds of trip sheets, because people get off before they get where they are going. But I remember the thing that way.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first ascertain or start thinking about it that it was the 700 block of North Beckley where you let him off?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, when the FBI man got in my cab and he wanted to go over the route.

Mr. BELIN. When was this?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't know the exact date, sir, but it was the next week.

Mr. BELIN. In the next week you told the FBI that it was the 700 block?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I don't recall. I know I took him to where I let him out.

Mr. BELIN. You did?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was the 700 block of North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir. I left it said just like I had it on my trip sheet. Nobody else asked me about it.

Mr. BELIN. When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch?

Mr. WHALEY. A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today?

Mr. WHALEY. It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped on the lights that I stopped on.

Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and 30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride, and let the record further show that Dr. Goldberg and Mr. Robert Davis from the Texas attorney general's office and I walked back from the point where the Deponent Whaley told us he let the passenger off at the residence at 1026 North Beckley, and that this walk took 5 minutes and 45 seconds.

And let the record further show that after visiting the rooming house at 1026 North Beckley--that is what I call the "long way around route,"--was walked from 1026 North Beckley to the scene of the Tippit shooting, which took 17 minutes and 45 seconds at an average walking pace, and this route would be to take Beckley to 10th Street and then turn on 10th Street toward Patton, and this is not the most direct route. Rather, the most direct route would be to take Beckley to Davis Street and then turn left or east on Davis, walking a short block to Crawford, and taking Crawford to 10th, and then 10th east to Patton, or taking Davis Street directly to Patton, and taking Patton down to East 10th, and that the more direct nature of the later route appears from the map which I believe is Commission's Exhibit No. 371, which is the Dallas street map.

Mr. Whaley, is there anything else that you care to add, or can you add anything else that might be helpful in this investigation?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; I can't.

Mr. BELIN. We sure appreciate all your help and taking the time to go over the route today.

Mr. WHALEY. Thank you. I still would like to know where I knew you before.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, I don't know. Now, Mr. Whaley, if you like, you can come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it before you mail it to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it. You have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in Washington.

Mr. WHALEY. Does it make any difference?

Mr. BELIN. It does not make any difference.

Mr. WHALEY. It will all be what you said and what she took down?

Mr. BELIN. What you said?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; and what I said?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. WHALEY. That will be all right. I will waive the signing of it.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. EARLENE ROBERTS

The testimony of Mrs. Earlene Roberts was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg was present.

Mr. BALL. Would you stand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Mrs. Earlene Roberts.

Mr. BALL. And what is your address?

Mrs. ROBERTS. 5000 Tremont, now.

Mr. BALL. You used to live at 1026 North Beckley, didn't you?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, Mrs. Roberts, where you were born and where you have lived?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I was born in Nashville, Tenn., and my mother and father moved to Tyler, Tex., and I was raised there and married a Dallas man.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school in Tyler?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mrs. ROBERTS. To my sorrows, I got married in the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. You did--you got married in the ninth grade?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you get married in Dallas or in Tyler?

Mrs. ROBERTS. In Tyler.

Mr. BALL. Did you have some children?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; to my sorrows--I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. What did you do in Tyler then--until you came to Dallas?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I was a PBX operator at the Hotel Blackstone. That's where I met my husband.

Mr. BALL. How long have you lived here?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Since 1938.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, until he passed away--I didn't work for I didn't have to. He made me a good living, but since that time I have been--well, just, I guess you would call it practical nursing or housekeeping and now I am with an elderly couple--he has cancer--the same kind that Sam Rayburn had and he's taken with leukemia.

Mr. BALL. That's at the address you have just given us?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, you know Mrs. Johnson, don't you?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I knew her very muchly so.

Mr. BALL. How long did you work for her?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, this last time I was there around 13 months--that was the third time I had went back.

Mr. BALL. When did you start working for her?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I started working for her in 1949 the first time.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you worked for her three times altogether?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I got sick the first time--I'm a diabetic and wasn't able to do the work and one day she called me again and wanted to know if I would do it and I went back and stayed again and I went in a coma and had to leave, and the reason why I left this time, she cut me down so low and the work was too heavy--I wasn't able to do the work.

Mr. BALL. You mean she cut you down on your money?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes; and I can't pay my doctor bill and buy my medicine at that price.

Mr. BALL. You mean, she didn't pay you enough--that's the reason you quit?

Mrs. ROBERTS. That's the reason why I quit--the work was too heavy and I wasn't able to do it and not enough pay.

Mr. BALL. And you were working there in October and November of last fall--1963?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; to my sorrows.

Mr. BALL. Why to your sorrows?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he was registered as O. H. Lee and I come to find out he was Oswald and I wish I had never known it.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they put me through the third degree.

Mr. BALL. Who did?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The FBI, Secret Service, Mr. Will Fritz' men and Bill Decker's.

Mr. BALL. They did?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Every time I would walk out on the front porch somebody was standing with a camera on me--they had me scared to death.

Mr. BALL. When is the first time you ever saw Lee Oswald?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The day he came in and rented the room--the 14th of October.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of the man before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, and he didn't register as Oswald--he registered as O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did he sign his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did he sign his own name that way?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee--that's what he was registered as.

Mr. BALL. Did you rent it to him, or did Mrs. Johnson?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I rented the room to him.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mrs. ROBERTS. She talked to him, and she had to go back to the work and that was what I was supposed to do--I rented the rooms--she didn't know what vacancies she had.

Mr. BALL. Did you have "room for rent" sign out in the front?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did he come in there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, it was in the early afternoon--I imagine between 1 and 2 o'clock when he came in and looked at the room; and he rented it and paid for it; and then left, and went and got his things and I don't know--it must have been around 5 or 6 o'clock when he come back in.

Mr. BALL. You say he went and got his things--what did he have with him at first when he came there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Just a little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a satchel bag?

Mrs. ROBERTS. One of them little zip kinds.

Mr. BALL. What color was it?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was just--don't ask me that for I can't answer that. It was just a dark bag is all I know.

Mr. BALL. How long did he stay that first time?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oswald?

Mr. BALL. I mean before he went away to get his clothes, when he first came in--you say he rented a room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He rented the room and paid me $8 for it and he said, "I'll go get my things and I will be back."

Mr. BALL. Did he say where he was going to get them?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he leave?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; he left.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a car he was riding in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. Did he take a bus?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You don't know?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, I don't. I don't remember--you know in a place like that--when you rent a room--I didn't pay no attention.

Mr. BALL. And he came back about what time?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, I imagine around 5 o'clock, maybe.

Mr. BALL. What did he have with him at that time?

Mrs. ROBERTS. That little zipper satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger.

Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you he had a zipper satchel bag?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; he didn't have nothing when he first come in and rented the room.

Mr. BALL. He didn't have anything?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he just came in.

Mr. BALL. Oh, when he came back he had the zipper satchel and the clothes on the hanger, is that right?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he rented the room and paid for it and said, "I'll go get my things." That's when he went and come back with his little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger, which was a very few.

Mr. BALL. Now, did he have anything to say when he came back?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he had been?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did he stay there that night?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him about anything?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; because he wouldn't talk.

Mr. BALL. Did he say "Hello"?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Or, "Goodby"?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Or anything?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He wouldn't say nothing.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes--I would say, "Good afternoon," and he would just maybe look at me--give me a dirty look and keep walking and go on to his room.

Mr. BALL. Did he watch television?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--in a way--but all he did ever watch the television was if someone in the other rooms had it on, maybe he would come and stand at the back of the couch--not over 5 minutes and go to his room and shut the door and never say a word.

Mr. BALL. Did he go out any at night?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did he stay home every night?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--he stayed home every night--I didn't ever know of him going out. If he did, he left after I went to bed and I never knew it.

Mr. BALL. Was he gone any weekends?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He would leave on Friday nights--he did say this much--he said, "Now, over weekends I will be out of town." He didn't say what town. He said, "I will be going out of town visiting friends." He would leave Friday morning for work and he wouldn't come back any more until Monday afternoon.

Mr. BALL. Now, was one weekend when he didn't come back on Monday?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; there was one weekend that he didn't go out.

Mr. BALL. Which one was that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, as far as--you know what?

Mr. BALL. Was that the weekend?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think--now, if I had the books, I could tell you.

Mr. BALL. Which books?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The books that are over there on North Beckley. I believe it was on the weekend before--when was President Kennedy shot?

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November.

Mrs. ROBERTS. What day was that--that was on Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was on the weekend before that.

Mr. BALL. What happened--what was that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't go nowhere.

Mr. BALL. He stayed in all weekend, is that right?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir; and then that first Thursday, he got up Thursday and left for work and he didn't come back no more until Friday.

Mr. BALL. He left on Thursday and didn't come home on Thursday night?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't spend Thursday night there and that was unusual, because he would always leave on Friday. That's the best I can do. He was just the type of person you just don't know--and I just thought he didn't like people and he would mix with nobody and he wouldn't say nothing. The only time he would ever say anything was when his rent was due and he was never behind.

I'll tell you when it was--it was when he didn't come back on Monday, you know, there was a holiday that people took off work.

Mr. BALL. That was Armistice Day.

Mrs. ROBERTS. That he said, "I have a long weekend."

Mr. BALL. He didn't come back on that Monday?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come back until the next day. He said he had a long weekend.

Mr. BALL. That was after his long weekend he came back on a Tuesday that week?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it--who would forget that?

Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men--it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.

Mr. BALL. What did they say?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. ROBERTS. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, "No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a year.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name--you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You say that you saw Lee Oswald--you say he didn't come home Thursday night that week?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't come home on Thursday night that week.

Mr. BALL. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on your door?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Hadn't he been home?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, let's see--that was the day.

Mr. BALL. That was on a Friday----

Mrs. ROBERTS. Wait a minute, let me think of it.

Mr. BALL. That's on a Friday.

Mrs. ROBERTS. I had better back up a minute--he came home that Friday in an unusual hurry.

Mr. BALL. And about what time was this?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up--I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in a hurry"?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything about the President being shot?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. You were working with the television?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I was trying to clear it up to see what was happening and try to find out about President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. Why did you say to this man as he came in, "You are in a hurry,"--why did you say that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he just never has come in and he was walking unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry."

Mr. BALL. You mean he was walking faster than he usually was?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in--he didn't look around at me--he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.

Mr. BALL. Did he run?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast--he was all but running.

Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on--it was kind of a zipper jacket.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did--if I did, I don't remember it.

Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.

Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it--the shirt, or do you know?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket?

Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket.

Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162--have you ever seen this jacket before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?

Mr. BALL. Yes--it has a zipper down the front.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was.

Mr. BALL. It was a zippered jacket, was it?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.

Mr. BALL. He was zipping it up as he went out the door?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then, when you saw him, did you see any part of his belt?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. There is some suspicion that when he left there he might have had a pistol or a revolver in his belt; did you see anything like that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 150--it is a shirt--have you seen that before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have. Now, that looks kind of like the dark shirt that he had on.

Mr. BALL. Now, when Oswald came in, he was in a shirt--does this shirt look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was a dark shirt he had on--I think it was a dark one, but whether it was long sleeve or short sleeve or what--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Does the color of this shirt which I show you here, Commission Exhibit No. 150, look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm sorry, I just don't know.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to testify as to that--to tell us that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what time it was approximately that Oswald came in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, it must have been around 1 o'clock, or maybe a little after, because it was after President Kennedy had been shot--what time I wouldn't want to say because----

Mr. BALL. How long did he stay in the room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, maybe not over 3 or 4 minutes--just long enough, I guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out zipping it.

Mr. BALL. You recall he went out zipping it--was he running or walking?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He was walking fast--he was making tracks pretty fast.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you as he went out?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Probably wouldn't have gotten no answer.

Mr. BALL. What is the only thing you said to him from the time he came in the house until he left?

Mrs. ROBERTS. "You sure are in a hurry."

Mr. BALL. Is that all?

Mrs. ROBERTS. That was all.

Mr. BALL. That's all you said to him?

Mrs. ROBERTS. That's all I said to him.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to you?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. Nothing.

Mrs. ROBERTS. He didn't say nothing--he wouldn't say nothing--period.

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same colored pants on when he left, or do you know?

Mrs. ROBERTS. What?

Mr. BALL. Did he have the same colored pants on when he came in as when he went out?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Now, I wouldn't say that because I don't remember--I didn't pay that much attention. I didn't mean to be hateful, but I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now, did it appear to you he had on the same pants or different pants from the time he came in and when he went out?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, I just didn't pay that much attention. All I remember--he was zipping up a coat and I was trying to find out about President Kennedy--I was still trying to find out about President Kennedy--they was broadcasting it then--I was more interested in that.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a gun in his room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever cleaned up his room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I cleaned his rooms, but I didn't see no gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go through any of his effects?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. There was a little wooden commode or closet in there, wasn't there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. There was a chifforobe--yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever look in there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir; I sure didn't--that's against the rules--to ransack their things.

Mr. BALL. Were there any drawers or anything in there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; there was drawers in that chifforobe and he also had a vanity dresser with four drawers.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever look inside of that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. After he left the house and at sometime later in the afternoon, these police officers came out, did they?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes.

Mr. BALL. And they asked you if there was a man named Lee Oswald there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you told them "No"?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he was trying to make us understand that--I had two new men and they told me--Mrs. Johnson told me, "Go get your keys and let them see in" I had gone to the back and they still had the TV on, and they was broadcasting about Kennedy.

Just as I unlocked the doors Fritz' men, two of them had walked in and she come running in and said, "Oh, Roberts, come here quick. This is this fellow Lee in this little room next to yours," and they flashed him on television, is how come us to know.

Mr. BALL. Then you knew it was the man?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; and I come in there and she said, "Wait," and then again they flashed him back on and I said, "Yes, that's him--that's O. H. Lee right here in this room." And it was just a little wall there between him and I.

Mr. BALL. That was the first you knew who it was?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, because he was registered as O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know he had a gun in his room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I sure did not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever appear on a television interview with Mr. or Mrs. Johnson--either one?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, no; they was on and would be on and then they had me on twice.

Mr. BALL. On television?

Mrs. ROBERTS. On television.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I was in the living room.

Mr. BALL. And they brought their cameras into the living room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. They brought their cameras into the living room and took pictures.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, I was then, because they was questioning me. They asked Mr. and Mrs. Johnson not to be in there at that time.

Mr. BALL. Then, they questioned you?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have an interview with Mr. and Mrs. Johnson being there?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, yes; one time, and then they would question them separate from me.

Mr. BALL. Was there any one time when they questioned all three of you together?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--one time.

Mr. BALL. Just one time--were you ever on television when you and Mrs. Johnson were on it alone together?

Mrs. ROBERTS. She and Mr. Johnson would be together and then I would be at the back when they put them on television, and then they had me on two different times and I was alone. They taken me when I was standing and showed them where it was.

Mr. BALL. Now, on television did they ever ask you if Oswald had a gun?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Did they ever ask you if you knew whether Oswald had a gun in his room or not?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; they asked me and I told them "No"--for I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he had a gun in there or not?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You never saw one?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell them that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I sure did--I didn't know he had a gun.

Mr. BALL. And when he was zipping up his jacket, his belt was covered?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Was it covered--well--I don't know. I just couldn't answer you--I don't know--I don't remember it. I couldn't any more tell you than the man in the moon whether or not the man's belt was covered or uncovered. All I know he was zipping his coat.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you another question: Did you ever talk to a reporter from a French newspaper?

Mrs. ROBERTS. A French newspaper?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, there was people in there from about everywhere, but I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. There was some French newspaperman who claims he interviewed you.

Mrs. ROBERTS. French?

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any French newspapermen interviewing you?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, I don't remember, but there were people in there from somewhere but I don't remember where they were from.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald before the Friday when the police came out?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had, of course, thought his name was what?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. He had paid you, had he?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He always paid on time.

Mr. BALL. And you made a record of it?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, after these police officers came out of there, did you see a gun holster in his room after they had searched it?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--there was one of them little outfits--a little holster and they taken it out and where they got it--I don't know, but it was in the room. They had it in their hands, one of the men was holding it.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I hadn't.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you something about his habits again--how early would he leave his room in the morning?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would leave around 7 o'clock, maybe between 6:30 and 7.

Mr. BALL. And what time would he come back?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would get home about maybe 5--something around 5 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And with the exception of the weekends that he spent away, was he home every night or was he out at night?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He was always home at night--he never went out.

Mr. BALL. Now, on one holiday that occurred on Monday--he didn't come in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come in that Monday.

Mr. BALL. Was that the only Monday he didn't come in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. That was the only Monday he didn't come in.

Mr. BALL. He paid on Monday?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He paid on Monday and that was the only time he didn't pay on Monday and he wasn't there.

Mr. BALL. He paid on what day of the week that week?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Tuesday--when he came in home.

Mr. BALL. But the weekend before November 22d, he was there all weekend, was he?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I also will ask you whether or not you ever heard of a fellow by the name of Ruby--did you ever hear of a fellow by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard his name before he was accused of shooting Oswald?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I never heard his name.

Mr. BALL. And had never seen him?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did a police car pass the house there and honked?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He came in the house.

Mr. BALL. When he came in the house?

Mrs. ROBERTS. When he came in the house and went to his room, you know how the sidewalk runs?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Right direct in front of that door--there was a police car stopped and honked. I had worked for some policemen and sometimes they come by and tell me something that maybe their wives would want me to know, and I thought it was them, and I just glanced out and saw the number, and I said, "Oh, that's not their car," for I knew their car.

Mr. BALL. You mean, it was not the car of the policemen you knew?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It wasn't the police car I knew, because their number was 170 and it wasn't 170 and I ignored it.

Mr. BALL. And who was in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't pay any attention to it after I noticed it wasn't them--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Where was it parked?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was parked in front of the house.

Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. ROBERTS. And then they just eased on--the way it is--it was the third house off of Zangs and they just went on around the corner that way.

Mr. BALL. Went around what corner?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Went around the corner off of Beckley on Zangs.

Mr. BALL. Going which way--toward town or away from town?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Toward town.

Dr. GOLDBERG. Which way was the car facing?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was facing north.

Dr. GOLDBERG. Towards Zangs?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Towards Zangs--for I was the third house right off of Zangs on Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Did this police car stop directly in front of your house?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--it stopped directly in front of my house and it just "tip-tip" and that's the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnely would do when they stopped, and I went to the door and looked and saw it wasn't their number.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald when this happened?

Mrs. ROBERTS. In his room.

Mr. BALL. It was after he had come in his room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Had that police car ever stopped there before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I don't remember ever seeing it.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen it since?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't pay that much attention--I just saw it wasn't the police car that I knew and had worked for so, I forgot about it. I seen it at the time, but I don't remember now what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you report the number of the car to anyone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think I did--I'm not sure, because I--at that particular time I remembered it.

Mr. BALL. You remembered the number of the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think it was--106, it seems to me like it was 106, but I do know what theirs was--it was 170 and it wasn't their car.

Mr. BALL. It was not 170?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The people I worked for was 170.

Mr. BALL. Did you report that number to anyone, did you report this incident to anyone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, I told the FBI and the Secret Service both when they was out there.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell them the number of the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm not sure--I believe I did--I'm not sure. I think I did because--there was so much happened then until my brains was in a whirl.

Mr. BALL. On the 29th of November, Special Agents Will Griffin and James Kennedy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed you and you told them that "after Oswald had entered his room about 1 p.m. on November 22, 1963, you looked out the front window and saw police car No. 207."

Mrs. ROBERTS. No. 107.

Mr. BALL. Is that the number?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--I remembered it. I don't know where I got that 106--207. Anyway, I knew it wasn't 170.

Mr. BALL. And you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, and it was in a black car. It wasn't an accident squad car at all.

Mr. BALL. Were there two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. And one of the officers sounded the horn?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Just kind of a "tit-tit"--twice.

Mr. BALL. And then drove on to Beckley toward Zangs Boulevard, is that right?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. I thought there was a number, but I couldn't remember it but I did know the number of their car--I could tell that. I want you to understand that I have been put through the third degree and it's hard to remember.

Mr. BALL. Are there any other questions?

Dr. GOLDBERG. No, that's all.

Mr. BALL. Now, Mrs. Roberts, this deposition will be written up and you can read it if you want to and you can sign it, or you can waive the signature.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm completely blind in my right eye.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? And then you won't have to come back down here.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, okay.

Mr. BALL. All right, you waive it then?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Do you want me to sign it now?

Mr. BALL. No; we couldn't, because this young lady has to write it up and it will be a couple of weeks before it will be ready.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, will you want me to come back or how?

Mr. BALL. Well, you can waive your signature and you won't have to come back to do that--do you want to do that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Okay, it will be all right.

Mr. BALL. All right. The Secret Service will take you home now.

Mrs. ROBERTS. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming.

Mrs. ROBERTS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DOMINGO BENAVIDES

The testimony of Domingo Benavides was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. You want to raise your hand and stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you state your name for our reporter, please?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Domingo Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I am 27, April the 9th. I am now 26.

Mr. BELIN. Single or married?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Married.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Two children and one expected sometime this month.

Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?

Mr. BENAVIDES. From Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. You were born in Dallas?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Dallas?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of school?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I just went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you work first?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Merchants Delivery.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was helper on a truck and part-time mechanic; mechanic helper.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine about 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yeoman and seaman.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Three years.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You did not have an honorable discharge?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I returned to work for Merchants Delivery.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, just from there I jumped around from roofing companies. I started in roofing then and I worked for Donald Bost, which is Town & Country Roofing Co., for on up until about 4 years ago, I guess. Then I just started mechanicing.

Mr. BELIN. You started to become an automobile mechanic?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For whom did you work then?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I worked in Martinez, Calif., for Donley Chevrolet & Cadillac Co., and then later on I was transferred to their paint and body shop, and then I came back to Dallas and I worked for Mr. Harris.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Mr. Harris, at Dootch Motors.

Mr. BELIN. Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now? That is, as a mechanic?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been working for Dootch now?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, off and on about 3 years. During this time I went back to Merchants Delivery and worked there and then I worked for Southern Delivery, too.

Mr. BELIN. Now when was the last time you went back to Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It's been a year ago.

Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them ever since?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to November 22, 1963, anything unusual happen that day?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On the 22d?

Mr. BELIN. 22d of November 1963?

Mr. BENAVIDES. This would be embarrassing. Was that the day of the Assassination of the President?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was thinking it was the 24th. Well, nothing except it seemed like a pretty nice day.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the day that the President was assassinated?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that he was assassinated in Dallas?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, yes; I remember this.

Mr. BELIN. That day you had lunch, were you at work that day?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You had lunch?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I had lunch. And then this man had stalled this car in the middle of the street and asked me if I would fix it. Something was wrong with the carburetor, or pump that had broken in it, and I went around to the parts house to get the parts for it.

Mr. BELIN. Where had the man's car stopped in the middle of the street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, on Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. Patton and what?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Between Jefferson and 10th.

Mr. BELIN. A car stopped in the middle of the street between----

Mr. BENAVIDES. Jefferson and Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of day was this?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine it was about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. You imagine it was about 1 o'clock?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was after lunch. I had already eaten. It was after I had lunch and I had eaten around 12, somewhere around 12 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do? You were going to get a carburetor part, so what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was in a rush and I ran off and forgot the number of the carburetor.

Mr. BELIN. You forgot the number of the carburetor?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I circled back. I left down the alley.

Mr. BELIN. Which alley is this?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The one directly between 10th and Patton and Jefferson Street.

Mr. BELIN. It runs parallel to 10th and Jefferson and it runs, the alley would run east of Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. The alley runs right behind Dootch Motors there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of vehicle were you driving?

Mr. BENAVIDES. 1958 pickup truck Chevrolet.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what route did you take? Were you headed east or west in the alley?

Mr. BENAVIDES. East.

Mr. BELIN. To what?

Mr. BENAVIDES. To Denver street.

Mr. BELIN. Which is the next street over from Patton?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. First street east of Patton, then where?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I turned right, which is east on 10th. Wait. Denver would be north, I imagine. I turned from the alley north on Denver.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. And east on 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Then you turned east on----

Mr. BENAVIDES. The parts house sets on Marsalis and 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Marsalis and 10th?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; so I got almost up to the parts house and I thought about the number, so I was going to go back and get the number off the carburetor. I turned in a drive and turned around and started back.

Mr. BELIN. On what street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. On East 10th?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was going west on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I got almost up to the corner when I seen the policeman. I first seen the car stop up there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say you got almost to a corner. What corner was that?

Mr. BENAVIDES. At Denver and 10th.

Mr. BELIN. You almost got up to Denver and 10th heading west on 10th Street when you saw something?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw this police car.

Mr. BELIN. You saw a police car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was sitting about 4 or 5 feet from the curb and down about 2 houses from the corner of Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Was it between Patton and Denver?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of East 10th, north or south?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On the south side.

Mr. BELIN. What direction was it headed?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed east.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see then?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the officer as he was getting out of the car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I seen as he was, well, he had his hand on the door and kind of in a hurry to get out, it seemed like.

Mr. BELIN. Had he already gotten out of the car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He had already gotten around.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the other man?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The other man was standing to the right side of the car, riders side of the car, and was standing right in front of the windshield on the right front fender. And then I heard the shot. Actually I wasn't looking for anything like that, so I heard the shot, and I just turned into the curb. Looked around to miss a car, I think.

And then I pulled up to the curb, hitting the curb, and I ducked down, and then I heard two more shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when your vehicle stopped?

Mr. BENAVIDES. About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have been a car length to the east or a car length to the west of the police car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. East of the front side of it.

Mr. BELIN. So your vehicle wouldn't have quite gotten up to where the police car was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN. How fast were you going when you watched the policeman getting out of his car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, I imagine not maybe 25 miles an hour. I never did pay much attention to it.

Mr. BELIN. You say you stopped the car right away? Your vehicle, I mean?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. I just didn't exactly stop because--I just pulled it into the curb.

Mr. BELIN. Then you say you heard a shot and you then ducked?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in.

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I ducked down.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the policeman as he fell?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What else did you see?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On Patton Street. He was going south.

Mr. BELIN. He was going south on Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; do you know Dootch Motors?

Mr. BELIN. Do I know Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was going?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On the east side.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him going on the east?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go down Patton?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his position?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that shot him?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing like I say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car.

Mr. BELIN. He was not moving when you saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; he wasn't moving then.

Mr. BELIN. All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out and rush right up. He might start shooting again.

That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared.

Mr. BELIN. Did the policeman say anything?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman as he fell, as you saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time.

So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. You saw a number on the house then?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then he started to--then I don't know what he said; but I put the radio back. I mean, the microphone back up, and this other guy was standing there, so I got up out of the car, and I don't know, I wasn't sure if he heard me, and the other guy sat down in the car.

Mr. BELIN. There was another passerby that stopped?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who was he, do you know?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell you. I don't know who he was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he driving a car or walking?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't know. He was just standing there whenever I looked up. He was standing at the door of the car, and I don't know what he said to the officer or the phone, but the officer told him to keep the line clear, or something, and stay off the phone, or something like that. That he already knew about it.

So then I turned and walked off. I never did assist him after that at all.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. At the time I walked out, I guess I was scared, so I started across the street--alley between the two houses to my mother's house, and I got in the yard and I said I'd better go back, or just caught myself until I got over there, I guess, so I went back around there.

Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do?

First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right now?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well. I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.

Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. BENAVIDES. As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired, he had just turned. He was just turning away.

In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big tree, and it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the left there and went on down Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go clear to the corner and turn off?

Mr. BENAVIDES. There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. He kitty-cornered across the yard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the sidewalk. He just cut across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he already started across the yard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across.

Mr. BELIN. Now you saw him throw two shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw where he threw the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell.

Mr. BELIN. A chrome looking shell?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did it take you to locate the shells once you started looking for them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Just a minute. I mean not very long at all. Just walked directly to them.

Mr. BELIN. You saw where he had thrown them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. One of them went down inside of a bush, and the other one was by the bush.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him after he turned the corner of the house?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he threw any--you said you heard three shots. Do you know whether or not he threw other shells there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look at all there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I didn't bother to look there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when he cut across the yard? Did he go between the bushes to get to the sidewalk on Patton Street, or do you know?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Between the house and the bush; yes, sir. He had to cut across the yard, because there was a big bush on the corner there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about the man after you saw him? What was he wearing? What did he look like?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was kind of, well, just about your size.

Mr. BELIN. About my size? I am standing up.

Mr. BENAVIDES. You are about 5' 10"?

Mr. BELIN. I am between 5' 10" and 5' 11". Closer to 5' 11", I believe.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.

Mr. BELIN. Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

Mr. BELIN. What color was the trousers?

Mr. BENAVIDES. They were dark.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was dark in color, but I don't remember exactly what color.

Mr. BELIN. Was he average weight, slender, or heavy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was average weight.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair did he have?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, dark. I mean not dark.

Mr. BELIN. Black hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No. Not black or brown, just kind of a----

Mr. BELIN. My color hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit curlier.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him that looked like me.

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. What about his skin? Was he fair complexioned or dark complexioned?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He wasn't dark.

Mr. BELIN. Average complexion?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; a little bit darker than average.

Mr. BELIN. My complexion?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I wouldn't say that any more. I would say he is about your complexion, sir. Of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit ruddier than mine.

Mr. BELIN. His skin looked ruddier than mine?

I might say for the record, that I was not in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, just your size.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look like me?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; your face, not your face, but just your size.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, well, I thank you. I was flying from St. Louis to Des Moines, Iowa, at about this time.

Is there anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look flat in back.

Mr. BELIN. When you put these two shells that you found in this cigarette package, what did you do with them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I gave them to an officer.

Mr. BELIN. That came out to the scene shortly after?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the name of the officer?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir; I didn't even ask him. I just told him that this was the shells that he had fired, and I handed them to him. Seemed like he was a young guy, maybe 24.

Mr. BELIN. How old would you say the man that you saw with gun was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I figured he was around 25.

Mr. BELIN. When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I turned around and went back and we returned to work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with you?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me--I had told them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time.

Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he had been shot. So I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could.

At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?

Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was going on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; sure didn't. There was people that asked me what happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and I said just the policeman got shot.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to Ted Callaway, did you?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; afterward. You know, I told your--I told him, he asked me when we went, when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or something of that sort.

Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him, and I said no.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you say "No"?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of the policeman's hand, and I didn't think he should bother to go like that. So he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. This cab?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. There was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk on Patton Street. I mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this cab had pulled in there by the stop sign.

Mr. BELIN. Which way was the cab headed on Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed north on Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on the south side of 10th or the north side of 10th when it was parked there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the south side of 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on the east side of Patton or the west?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the east side of Patton.

Mr. BELIN. How close to the sidewalk on East 10th would the front part of the cab have been?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The front part of the cab was, I would say, maybe 5 or 6 feet from the corner.

Mr. BELIN. From the corner?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be up on the curb.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. And so Ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came to a halt and he asked me which way he went. I told him he went down Patton Street toward the office, and come to find out later Ted had already seen him go by there.

Mr. BELIN. Did Ted tell you later he had seen him go by?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen him go by.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be Sam Guinyard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police station to try to identify the man?

Mr. BENAVIDES. After that--After I left that evening, I took off kind of early because I was so shookup that I couldn't work, and so when I say early, I usually work to 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock, at night. So I'd taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down there. I think it was the next day, or the day after.

Well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified him as the guy that came by the carlot.

Mr. BELIN. Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and identified him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me.

Mr. BELIN. Ted worked at Dootch Motors at the same time?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What does he do there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. General manager.

Mr. BELIN. Used-car place?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you can identify it and I will be back in 1 minute.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as "Commission's Exhibit 163," and ask you to state whether this bears any similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit 150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I think the shirt looked darker than that.

Mr. BELIN. The shirt was darker?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on there. That was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it?

Mr. BELIN. Yes; anything else you can think of.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Not offhand, except later on, I don't know if I seen it on television but I believe I seen it on television where they was arresting him, the policeman from the theater. But it didn't seem like he had a jacket on there.

Mr. BELIN. When he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket on? Now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.

I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled over, and I don't know if he came back there or not.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You and I never met before today, did we, except that one day when we were around to see Ted Callaway and he introduced you at Dootch Motors and we chatted for 3 or 4 minutes there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; you and two other men.

Mr. BELIN. Today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as to whether I asked you before the court reporter was able to get here to just relate to me what happened, or did I start questioning you or try to tell you things as I saw them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. So; you just asked me what happened and I described to you what happened.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said before the court reporter got here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter started taking your testimony?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe now only in the change of time, or I imagine I added a little bit since she was here.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that would be at variance with what you told me before the court reporter got here?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I don't understand.

Mr. BELIN. What I mean is, is there anything that you said before the court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court reporter got here?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything you have said in front of the court reporter that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or different in anyway from what you told me before?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Different in wording but----

Mr. BELIN. But are the facts different?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I don't believe the facts are different.

Mr. BELIN. Now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. Do you want to waive it or not?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe I could add something I didn't add.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I will ask the court reporter to try and get in touch with you.

Mr. BENAVIDES. 3112 June Drive.

Mr. BELIN. She can reach you at Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Dootch Motors.

Mr. BELIN. What is the address?

Mr. BENAVIDES. 501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. You did get notice of the taking of this deposition here today?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are here voluntarily appearing in front of the Commission?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely appreciate all of the cooperation you have shown here, sir, and if there is anything else that you think is important, we would appreciate your getting in touch with us.

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is the reason I wanted to read this, in case I might have left out something.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please thank whoever is the general manager at Dootch Motors for letting you come here and appear before us?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is Mr. Harris.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS

The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the court reporter?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as Mrs. Charles Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Your first name is Virginia?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BELIN. In Texas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived in Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, about 6 months. It was after the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when the President was shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. On November 22.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after that did you move to Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 2 weeks after the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, how long have you been married?

Mrs. DAVIS. Seven months.

Mr. BELIN. Any children?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The time you moved to Athens would have been sometime in December of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time, had you always lived in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, after I got married we moved to Dallas and we lived there ever since.

Mr. BELIN. When you got married, you moved to Dallas. Before you got married, where did you live?

Mrs. DAVIS. Palestine.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised there?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I was raised in Athens.

Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Athens. Did you go to school in Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I went to school in Palestine.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mrs. DAVIS. The ninth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever been employed at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, where were you living when you were living in Dallas in November of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. Is that 400 East 10th?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what cross-street runs at 10th there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Patton.

Mr. BELIN. 10th and Patton?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of house did you live in? Was it a brick or frame home?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house.

Mr. BELIN. A frame apartment house. You and your husband lived in one apartment?

Mrs. DAVIS. And my sister and her husband lived in another one.

Mr. BELIN. There were two apartments there?

Mrs. DAVIS. On the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. What is your sister's name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her husband's name is?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to the afternoon of November 22, do you remember anything out of the ordinary that happened on that date?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the boy that was known as Lee Harvey Oswald shot J. D. Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, did you see him shoot J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see. Yes; we heard the shot. He had already shot him.

Mr. BELIN. You say you heard a shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was over at my sister-in-law's.

Mr. BELIN. Her apartment?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where in her apartment were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was in the living room.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the living room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. We was lying down.

Mr. BELIN. You were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or what?

Mrs. DAVIS. It is a bed against the wall and a sofa.

Mr. BELIN. Who was lying down?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Jeanette was lying on the bed. I was lying on the couch, and Annette and James Lee were lying on the other bed.

Mr. BELIN. Are these other people children of your sister's?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how old are those children?

Mrs. DAVIS. James will be 6 and then Annette is 5.

Mr. BELIN. Now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard a shot.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. Then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure that you heard two?

Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard two.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Mrs. Markham was trying to say----

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her first name is?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. I just know her by Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Had you ever known her before?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know it was Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it said in the paper that it was Mrs. Markham, and my sister-in-law said it was Mrs. Markham. My sister-in-law knows Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Now you heard the shots. You heard, you say, the second shot and then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We was already up. We ran to the door.

Mr. BELIN. By we, who do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette and I.

Mr. BELIN. You went to which door?

Mrs. DAVIS. The front door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the front of the house facing East 10th Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham was standing at the tree.

Mr. BELIN. If we can picture the street intersection, was she standing in the middle of the street or on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Your house would be located at the southeast corner of the intersection, is that where it is, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would she be standing on a corner that would be right across 10th Street but on the same side of Patton, or across Would it be catty-cornered or would it be across 10th Street but on the other side? Maybe we can draw it here on a little paper.

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember it too good.

Mr. BELIN. Now I have drawn on a piece of paper here a street intersection and this is Patton and here is 400 East 10th, which would be your house. Do you want to mark here where you think you saw Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she was standing on the sidewalk right here. Do you want to put an "X" there?

Mr. BELIN. Please put an "X" there.

Mrs. DAVIS. (Marks "X".)

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to call that Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 1. What was Mrs. Markham saying, or did you hear her say anything?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard her say "He shot him. He is dead. Call the police."

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying this in a soft or loud voice?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you saw a boy. Do you know how old he was?

Mrs. DAVIS. He didn't look like he was over 20.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color hair he had?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, the best I recall, he had sort of light brown.

Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he tall or short or average height?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about average height.

Mr. BELIN. Fat, thin, or average weight?

Mrs. DAVIS. Slim.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. Slim.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color his trousers were?

Mrs. DAVIS. I think they were black. Brown jacket and trousers.

Mr. BELIN. The trousers were black?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't recall that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was open.

Mr. BELIN. But you don't remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look at you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember. I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was cutting across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction was he walking?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking----

Mr. BELIN. Away from Patton or towards Patton?

Mrs. DAVIS. Towards Patton.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, had he gotten up to your yard yet or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was cutting over across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. He was cutting across your walk that leads up to the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far from the main sidewalk on East 10th was he?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet.

Mr. BELIN. About 3 feet or so?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; when I first saw him.

Mr. BELIN. Then he was cutting across your sidewalk about 3 feet away from the main sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you see him--how long did you see him? Where did you see him go?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him go around the corner of our house.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when he disappeared around that corner, that is the last we saw of him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him go through any bushes by your house or not? Or didn't you see him?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you didn't see him?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him when he cut across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you last saw him? He was--was he still in your yard, or was he on the sidewalk on Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was still in our yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We already called the police.

Mr. BELIN. You called the police before you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. When Mrs. Markham was standing across the street hollering, she told us to call the police, so Jeanette and I went in there, and Jeanette called the police and we went back and he was cutting across our yard, and we gave him time to go on because we were afraid he might shoot us.

Mr. BELIN. Did you call the police before or after you saw him cut across your yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. Before.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, to your--to the best of your recollection, you heard the shots, you ran outside, you saw Mrs. Markham--did you see anything else when you saw Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of the road.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car parked?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on your side of East 10th or the other side of the street?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was on our side, the same side that we lived on.

Mr. BELIN. Was it headed as you looked to the police car, towards your right or towards your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer in a police car when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When your sister went to call the police, did you go with her, or did you stay by the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. I went with her.

Mr. BELIN. What did you hear your sister do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she called the police and told whoever answered the phone that there had been a murder out in front of our house, to come quick.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did she do?

Mrs. DAVIS. She hung up and then we went back to the front door and told the two kids to stay indoors.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went out in the front yard and right down to the police car and that is when we saw the policeman lying on the street.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman lying?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was lying just, well, he was half between the front end of his car and, well, his head was lying toward the front end of it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the driver's side of the front or on the other side?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was on the driver's side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, as I understand your testimony, after you made the call, you went out to the front yard, is that it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You then went out to see the policeman in the street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you went out in the front yard, were you in the front yard when the man was going by there?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; he had already gone when we went outside.

Mr. BELIN. He had already gone when you went outside?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I thought you said that when you went outside you went on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. See, all the people had already--see, he was already gone.

Mr. BELIN. Had he gone by at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. By the time we got back from off the phone, he had already gone. He had already disappeared behind the corner of our house.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him going in front of your house before you called on the phone?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. When we heard the second shot, we ran to the front door, and that is when we saw the boy cutting across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me see if I understand your statement now. You went to the front door after you heard the second shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the front door? Did you open the front door, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we just looked through the front door.

Mr. BELIN. You looked through the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was there a screen door on it or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a screen door.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking through the screen door, or was the screen door partially open, if you remember.

Mrs. DAVIS. It was closed. We was looking through it.

Mr. BELIN. You were looking through the screen door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in front of your sister-in-law, or was she in front of you?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. You were both looking through the screen door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you looked through the screen door?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw a boy walking, cutting across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about 3 feet from the sidewalk. Not the one that comes up to our front door, but the other sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. He was about 3 feet from the front sidewalk on East 10th?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had he come up to your sidewalk yet that comes up from East 10th to your front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, he had already. He was about half on the concrete, I think.

Mr. BELIN. He was half on that concrete?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you watch this man do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We watched him unload the shells out of his gun.

Mr. BELIN. What hand was he holding this gun in?

Mrs. DAVIS. In the right.

Mr. BELIN. He was holding the gun in his right hand, if you remember?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing with his left hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was emptying the shells in his left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Was the gun broken open, so to speak? In other words. I don't know if you have ever seen a capgun. When you want to load the capgun, you have to kind of break it apart on a hinge.

Was the gun broken apart like that, or was the barrel straight?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was like the real gun, little one.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it was just like?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was just as best as I can remember, it was a little pistol, and he was emptying the shells. Where the shell was coming out, he was emptying the shells into his left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them into his left hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. After we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because we found two.

Mr. BELIN. You said that you found two? Did you see him drop them on the ground or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see him.

Mr. BELIN. You just saw him emptying shells in his hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't actually see what he did with them when he got them in his hand, did you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see the man do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, he just cut across. He disappeared from behind the corner of the house.

Mr. BELIN. Going toward what street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, going toward Jefferson Street.

Mr. BELIN. He was headed on Patton in the direction toward Jefferson?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him actually get to Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he was already around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him go around the corner of your home?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do or see then?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just went out, because we had already called the police, notified them, and we went out in the yard.

Mr. BELIN. You notified the police. Let me ask you this. Did you notify the police before or after you saw the boy with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, I think it was before.

Mr. BELIN. When you say before, what do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before we saw the boy.

Mr. BELIN. Before you saw the boy you notified the police?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me try and reconstruct your actions then. You heard the shots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You ran to the door?

Mr. BELIN. What did you see when you got to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just saw, you know, the police car parked down there and we wondered what was going on, so we heard Mrs. Markham across the street calling.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she told us to call the police, well, so went to the house. We was already in the house, and we went to the phone and called the police.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Then we went back to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cutting across the street.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?

Mrs. DAVIS. After he disappeared around the corner we ran out in the front yard and down to see what had happened.

Mr. BELIN. Then is that when you saw the policeman?

Mrs. DAVIS. I saw the policeman lying on the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see or do anything else? Did you see anyone else that you know come up to the policeman?

Mrs. DAVIS. No sir; there was a lot of people around there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of day this was?

Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure. But it was about 1:30, between 1:30 and 2.

Mr. BELIN. All right, after this, did police come out there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they was already there.

Mr. BELIN. By the time you got out there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and picked him up.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. And we stood out there and talked to this woman who told us that President Kennedy was shot.

Mr. BELIN. About what?

Mrs. DAVIS. This woman had told us that President Kennedy was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. When the police cars was circling all the blocks, about four or five blocks to see if they could find the boy, and we stayed out there all that time to see if they would locate him.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you tell the police, that you had seen anyone with a gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we told them that we saw a boy carrying a gun.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, that was----

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go down to the police station or identify him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; we had to identify him in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. What day was that? This same day or another day?

Mrs. DAVIS. Same day.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of the day was it?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was probably about 5:30.

Mr. BELIN. Who went down with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, let's see, my sister-in-law.

Mr. BELIN. That would be Barbara Jeanette Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; and her husband Troy Lee and myself.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. We stayed there until this detective, some man walked up to us and led us to this dark room.

Mr. BELIN. Before they led you to the dark room, did he show you any pictures of anyone?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any pictures on television of anyone that might be the man you saw walking with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you watched television at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't watch television.

Mr. BELIN. Had you seen any newspapers that afternoon?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; we didn't get the newspapers until that following morning.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you went with the detective to a dark room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the dark room?

Mrs. DAVIS. He told us to sit down.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. DAVIS. And then these five boys, or men walked up on this platform, and he was No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. You say he was No. 2. Who was No. 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. The boy that shot Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the man--did you see him shoot Tippit? Or you mean the man you saw with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. The man I saw carrying the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Was he white or a Negro man?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was white.

Mr. BELIN. Were all the men in the lineup white men or some Negroes?

Mrs. DAVIS. All of them were white.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe any other people in the lineup as to whether they might be fat or thin or short or tall?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, one of them was sort, well, he was tall and slim. And then the other one there, he was sort of chubby and he was short. Then this other one, he was about the same height as the other one, the last one I told you about, short and chubby. And the other one was about--medium tall.

Mr. BELIN. Now you identified someone in that lineup?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear your sister-in-law identify him first, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I identified him first.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister when you identified him?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was sitting right next to me.

Mr. BELIN. How did you identify him? Did you yell that this is the man I saw?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I just leaned over and told the detective it was No. 2.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the detective? Was he to your right or to your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, to my right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your sister, to your right or to your left?

Mrs. DAVIS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. As she was to your right, so you leaned over to the detective and told the detective it was No. 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that happened that day?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Later did you ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first see it on television?

Mrs. DAVIS. When they was bringing him out of the jail out here.

Mr. BELIN. When?

Mrs. DAVIS. When they were bringing him out of the jail.

Mr. BELIN. You mean Sunday when he got shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did this look, could you tell whether this was the same man you saw running with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. I wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. You mean from seeing his picture on television?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the man you identified as No. 2? Would you say for sure that he was the man you saw running with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. I would say that was him for sure.

Mr. BELIN. What you are saying is that you couldn't necessarily tell from the television picture?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. Our television was blurred anyway, so we couldn't hardly tell.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that you signed a statement when you were down at the Dallas Police Department at all, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 2, and ask you to state if this is your signature on here?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, Sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you read the contents of your deposition Exhibit 2, and I will ask you if there is anything there that is inaccurate.

(Reads statement.)

Mr. BELIN. You have read Exhibit 2?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in that statement that is inaccurate in any way?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you told the police of Dallas on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now on this statement it says that you heard a shot and then another shot and ran to the side door at Patton Street. Was that the side door or front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was unloading his gun." Is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "We walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'He's dead, he's dead, he's shot.'" Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "This woman told Jeanette to call the police and she did." Is that what happened?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It says, "I saw the officer that had been shot lying on 10th Street after Jeanette had called the police." Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now it says, "Jeanette found a empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police." Did you see Jeanette find that shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. I was right along behind her.

Mr. BELIN. Where did she find it?

Mrs. DAVIS. She found it beside, well, the apartment was facing this way.

Mr. BELIN. Facing Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And we was already outside. We thought maybe we could find some evidence for the police. So we went through the hedge, and by my front door of the apartment where we live, right there in the grass where he dropped them.

Mr. BELIN. Had the police started to search around your house yet when they found it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; they already started to search.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been to the side of the house or the corner of the house that you found, that Jeanette found that shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was by the side.

Mr. BELIN. This would have been by the side of the house that is next to Patton Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how far from the front of the house would it be?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. About 5 feet. You saw Jeanette find the shell? You saw her pick it up from the ground?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What color was it, do you remember?

Mrs. DAVIS. The best I can recall, it was gray, one of these----

Mr. BELIN. The best you can recall, it was gray?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did Jeanette do with it?

Mrs. DAVIS. She gave it to some detective.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see her find any other shells?

Mrs. DAVIS. I found one after Jeanette, after all the police had gone.

Mr. BELIN. When did you find yours?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 10 minutes after all the police had gone.

Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you went down to the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was before.

Mr. BELIN. About when before?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, I would say it was about 2:30, or 4.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, when did you say you found this other shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 4.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see or know of anyone else finding any other shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you did with your shell when you found it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, before I picked it up, this boy told me that was walking along with us helping us find, see if we could find anything for evidence, he told me the police would get me if I picked it up by my fingers, and take fingerprints, and I got scared and ran to the house and got a Kleenex tissue and brought back outside and wrapped the shell in.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with it when you wrapped the shell up?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette took it and put it in her apartment up on the mantle-board.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mrs. DAVIS. Then about 5:30 the same day the police called and wanted us to come down and identify him in the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with the shell?

Mrs. DAVIS. I gave it to the police.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give it to him at your house or down at the police station?

Mrs. DAVIS. They come and picked us up.

Mr. BELIN. You gave it to the officer that came to pick you up?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what his name was, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now in your statement, Virginia Davis Deposition Exhibit 2, now you state that, "Jeanette found an empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police. After the police had left I found a empty shell in our yard." Is this the same shell you gave to Detective Dhority? Does the name Detective Dhority sound familiar to you now, or don't you remember?

Mrs. DAVIS. I never did hear the detective called.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. I didn't hear the detective's name called.

Mr. BELIN. You say, "The man that was unloading the gun was the same man that I saw tonight as No. 2 man in a lineup." Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, on this statement, Virginia Davis Deposition Exhibit 2, it states that "We heard a shot and then another shot and ran to side door at Patton Street." You say that should have been the front door?

Mrs. DAVIS. That was supposed to be the front door.

Mr. BELIN. You say, "I saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was unloading his gun. We walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'he's dead, he's, he's shot'." "This woman told Jeanette to call the police and she did." Now according to this statement, you saw the man cutting across your yard before you called the police?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now this statement is wrong, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. It is your testimony now, as I understand it, that you went back in the house and you called the police, and then you went back outside the house and saw the boy cutting across the yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. That is your statement now?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now I hand you what is Deposition Exhibit 3, and ask you to state if your signature appears on Deposition Exhibit 3?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. This appears to be an affidavit dated December 1, 1963, and I would like you to read the statement if you would.

Mrs. DAVIS. (Reads statement.)

Mr. BELIN. You have now had an opportunity to read over Virginia Davis Deposition Exhibit 3, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that statement that is not accurate?

Mrs. DAVIS. As I recall, this is all right on that statement.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. I recall that is all right on that statement.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that statement that is not accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that you and your sister-in-law were lying on the bed with the two children when you heard a loud bang, and immediately following the first report there was another loud bang and you jumped up and ran to the front door? Is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "When we got to the door and went out on the porch, I saw a man who I later that day identified at the Dallas Police Department." Is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, according to this statement, you saw the man when you first got to the door and went out on the porch? Now, did you see him then, or did you see him----

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw him cut across after he had shot the policeman. We saw him cut across our yard, and that is the last we saw of him.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, you actually didn't see him shoot the policeman, did you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw----just saw the man with the gun?

Mrs. DAVIS. I just saw the man with the gun cutting across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. After you heard some shots?

Mrs. DAVIS. After I heard the two shots.

Mr. BELIN. Now, about how soon after you heard the two shots did you get to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we didn't even put on our shoes. We just run to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a matter of seconds or a matter of minutes?

Mrs. DAVIS. A matter of seconds.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, you opened the door, and what did you see?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy or man cut across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. All right, and he had a revolver in his hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. In his right hand or left hand?

Mrs. DAVIS. In his right.

Mr. BELIN. This statement goes on to say that "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right hand." Is that right or wrong?

Mrs. DAVIS. Wrong.

Mr. BELIN. It was the other way around?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was the other way around.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the door and you opened the door, and what did you see now?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy cut across our yard unloading the shells out of his gun.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham, this woman, was standing across the street hollering to us to call the police. So we went back in there and called the police.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, this statement says, goes on to say, "This man was coming across the yard and was almost to the walk which leads directly to the porch and is in a direct line with the front door."

Is that where the man was when you first saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right hand."

Mrs. DAVIS. It was the other way, sir.

Mr. BELIN. But you say "The man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right hand. As the man passed directly in front of us, he looked up for a second or so and then continued on across the yard to Patton Street in a normal walk." Was he walking or running when you saw him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was walking.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look up at you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. DAVIS. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you just remember kind of seeing him from a side view?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. "At about this time, a woman directly across the intersection from our house yelled out, 'He's dead, he's dead, he shot him.'"

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. "The man glanced up at the woman and kept on walking." Did you see the man glance up at Mrs. Markham when she was yelling?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; we saw when he looked over at Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Mrs. Markham do anything when he looked at her?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; she was over there just hollering and screaming.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see her raise her hand to her face in any way?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir. She raised both her hands to her face.

Mr. BELIN. You saw her do that?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see her do anything else?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. You say, "He walked around the corner of the house that faces Patton Street and out of sight." Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. "Barbara Davis and I returned to the house where she called the police." Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. According to the statement then, it says that your sister Barbara Jeanette called the police after you saw the man, is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. "After she called the police, we went back out on the porch but by then the man we had seen with the gun was no longer in sight."

Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "When the police arrived we searched the area on the side of the house that faces Patton Street, and Barbara found a gunshell that had been fired." It that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. "After the police left we again searched the area and I again found a gunshell that had been fired. I later turned this shell over to the Dallas Police Department." Is that right?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then it says, "I have been given an opportunity to make additions and corrections on this statement, and it is true to the best of my knowledge and belief."

Did they give you an opportunity to make additions and corrections on the statement?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. They did not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did they read the statement back to you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. They may have but you don't remember.

Mrs. DAVIS. May have but I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, you and I never talked about this matter until the court reporter started taking your testimony, have we?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I never met you before, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with any person in connection with the President's Commission before we started taking your testimony here?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I want to be certain that we get this time sequence correct as to when you saw the man with the gun and when the police were called, so I am just going to ask you to sit for about 30 seconds and just think as to just what did happen, and then just tell the court reporter in your own words just what did happen there.

(Three minutes of silence.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, you may not be able to remember just what exactly the time sequence was. You have been sitting here about 3 minutes, and if you don't remember what the time sequence was, why I would like to have you so state. But if you do remember--or do you want more time to think about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the best I can remember, it was before that we saw the boy cut across the yard that we called the police, the best that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, it is your testimony, as I understand it now, that you heard the shot, and then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the second shot and we ran to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw this boy cut across the yard, and we had seen this woman was coming home from work, she had on a uniform, that was Mrs. Markham--we didn't know it was at the time, but she saw all that happen.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. We saw the boy cut across our yard.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the door, did you also see Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see both at approximately the same time? I will ask you whom did you see first, Mrs. Markham, or the boy cutting across the yard?

Mrs. DAVIS. The boy.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the boy first?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is who we saw first.

Mr. BELIN. Then you saw Mrs. Markham second?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did the boy say anything?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Markham say anything?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, when she got across the other street, 10th, she hollered, "He's dead, he's dead, he shot him."

Mr. BELIN. Then what did she say?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we called the police. Notified them.

Mr. BELIN. So you called the police after you saw the boy?

Mrs. DAVIS. After we saw the boy.

Mr. BELIN. And Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes. Is that your testimony, to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. DAVIS. That is my testimony.

Mr. BELIN. I want to ask you again, did you call the police before or after you saw the boy?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was after.

Mr. BELIN. It was after?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir; after, the best that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. The best you can remember, you called the police before or after you saw the boy?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Before or after?

Mrs. DAVIS. After.

Mr. BELIN. After you saw the boy, you went back in the house and called the police?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that we haven't talked about that might be helpful in this investigation?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any ambulance come up to where Officer Tippit was?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; I saw the ambulance.

Mr. BELIN. You got there before the ambulance, did you not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; we got there before.

Mr. BELIN. Did the ambulance get there first or the police get there first?

Mrs. DAVIS. The ambulance got there first.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone making any calls over Tippit's radio?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to Tippit's car, did you take a look at that police car?

Mrs. DAVIS. We didn't touch it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look at it? Did you notice whether its windows were rolled up or rolled down?

Mrs. DAVIS. The one on his side was rolled down.

Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the passenger side of the front seat, did you notice that?

Mrs. DAVIS. Rolled up.

Mr. BELIN. Was that rolled up?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes.

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now the front window has kind of a little window in it. Do you know that little tiny part of the front window that opens and closes?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether that one on the front seat by the right side of the front seat was open or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was not open? Or you don't----

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone make any statements that they had seen anything other than Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see a taxicab parked anywhere in the vicinity?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head no.

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I think I have told it all.

Mr. BELIN. All right, Mrs. Davis, we want to thank you very much for taking the time and the effort to come here. I know that this whole episode has taken time on your part, and we certainly appreciate your cooperation with the President's Commission.

Transcriber's Notes:

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source.

Page 4: "lactated renger solution" should be "lactated Ringer's solution".

Page 6: "larynzo scope" should be "laryngoscope".

Page 248: "1:30 a.m." probably is a misprint.

Page 254: "Van Alstyne" is also printed as "Van Alystyne"; the first one is correct.

Page 286: "an attempt to get and was" may have omitted a word after "get".

Page 321: "assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43" may have omitted a word after "sometime".

Page 321: "suppose to" may be a misprint for "supposed to".

Page 322: "out of this man" probably should be "out on this man".

Page 323: "window of Texas School Book" probably missing "the" after "of".

Page 334: "sometimes around" probably should be "sometime".

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