Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) (part 4 of 5)

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry?

Mr. RACKLEY. It wasn't a thing that I knew. I didn't really know or expect what was taking place.

Mr. BELIN. Other than the pigeons?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we thank you for your cooperation. You have a right, if you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly to us without your taking another trip down here. You can do it either way.

Mr. RACKLEY. I can sign it now.

Mr. BELIN. You can either waive signing it or else you can come down again and read it and sign it. By waiving, I mean you just let it go, assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you have a right to come in and read it.

Mr. RACKLEY. I will just let it go.

Mr. BELIN. You waive signing it?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is all for now.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES ELBERT ROMACK

The testimony of James Elbert Romack was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. You want to stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROMACK. I do.

Mr. BELIN. My name is David Belin. I am actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa. I have been with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy for several months here, and we asked you to come down to have your deposition taken.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. ROMACK. James Elbert Romack.

Mr. BELIN. R-o-m-a-c-k?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Romack?

Mr. ROMACK. 10825 Benbrook Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How old a man are you?

Mr. ROMACK. I am 39 years of age.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here?

Mr. ROMACK. I went to school in Texas, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. ROMACK. I got a couple of years of college.

Mr. BELIN. A couple of years of college?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What college?

Mr. ROMACK. East Texas State Teachers College and Technological College.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to college right after high school?

Mr. ROMACK. It was right after the war.

Mr. BELIN. You went right after the war?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go----

Mr. ROMACK. I take it back, I was going to Tech when the war broke out, and went to East Texas State after the war.

Mr. BELIN. When the war broke out, what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. ROMACK. I was in the Amphibious, on the Aleutian Islands, and took boot training in San Diego.

I went to the Aleutian Islands and came back and went to Pearl Harbor and stayed out there for 9 months, and boarded an LST and went through the campaigns of the Philippines and Okinawa and Japan and then returned back home.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get back to the States?

Mr. ROMACK. March 1946.

Mr. BELIN. I was stationed in Japan right after the last war. Where were you stationed?

Mr. ROMACK. I was on this LST in Pearl Harbor.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in Japan after the war?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, I was there during the time the Treaty was signed. We were in the, I forget the name, we were riding typhoons. We rode out eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. All we had was the big ramp.

Mr. BELIN. That must have been quite a voyage back?

Mr. ROMACK. They were taking water in the port and bailing it over in the back.

Mr. BELIN. When you got back to the States, what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Went to St. Louis and bought me an automobile, and just I was a boy. I was the boy about 6 months, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I entered school, East Texas State Teachers College.

Mr. BELIN. You went there about a year?

Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year, I would say, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. ROMACK. I got married once along the route, and I was married about 30 days.

Then I came to Dallas in 1947. I guess it was 1947, or 1948, I forget just when I did come to Dallas. It was along in there.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been in Dallas ever since?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you honorably discharged?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes; I surely was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to Dallas?

Mr. ROMACK. I went to work with a motor freight carrier. They are known as ICX today. They were Miller & Miller Motor Freight at the time.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. ROMACK. Drove a truck.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. ROMACK. Approximately a year.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Went back to East Texas, and my home, and piddled around for a short while.

Then I came back to Dallas. And what did I do along in there? In 1949, I went to work for the Cotton Belt Railroad.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. ROMACK. Until April, I believe, of 1955. I know it was in 1955.

Mr. BELIN. What did you generally do when you were with the Cotton Belt?

Mr. ROMACK. I did all the railroad work during that time. I mean, I have been a billing clerk, and I have been a foreman, and I have been checker, and assistant foreman, warehouse foreman, and I worked out in the yards, and did quite a few jobs.

Mr. BELIN. You left them in 1955, and then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Went to work with--a friend wanted me to go to work with him in a service station, Conoco Service Station.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. ROMACK. Stayed there a year, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with Strickland Transportation Co. as a dock foreman.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you with them?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I would say 6 or 7 months.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I went to work with an air freight concern out here at Love Field Drive, driving a truck, delivering air freight and picking up air freight for, I would say, 7 or 8 months there, maybe.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. ROMACK. Then I hired out with the Coordinating Transportation Co.

Mr. BELIN. Coordinated Transportation Co.?

Mr. ROMACK. Right, which that is where I am at today.

Mr. BELIN. What have you been doing for them?

Mr. ROMACK. Driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail trucks and pickup and delivery service.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you around the noon hour of November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROMACK. I was on lunch period, just piddling around out north by east, I would say, from the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing around Houston Street?

Mr. ROMACK. It would be just about where Houston would intersect, but the street was under construction at the time. They didn't have it, which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, Lee and Mr. Rackley, we walked out there together originally to start with. We were kind of piddling around, and I kind of walked off ahead of him.

Mr. BELIN. Was that George W. Rackley you were referring to?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is he also known as "Pop" Rackley?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You said you started walking away. Where did you walk?

Mr. ROMACK. Toward the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Along what street did you walk?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, it wouldn't be no street at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if there would be a street?

Mr. ROMACK. I guess it would be just about, I don't know whether they are going to split Ross and Houston Street up.

Mr. BELIN. Would you be looking at at Houston Street?

Mr. ROMACK. More or less. I would be looking at Houston Street; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, and what happened as you were walking?

Mr. ROMACK. I heard these three rifle shots sound out.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know they were rifle shots?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir; I did. I go elk hunting in Colorado every year in October, and I just came back from this trip, and I am pretty familiar with a rifle shot.

Mr. BELIN. How many did you hear?

Mr. ROMACK. Three.

Mr. BELIN. Where did they sound like they came from?

Mr. ROMACK. It sounded, I guess, like it came from that building, but it wasn't on my side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like it was up high or low?

Mr. ROMACK. I would say they were high. I have never been asked that question, but it did sound like they were running out high, I would say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. The wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it blowing from your back, sir?

Mr. ROMACK. It was blowing into my face.

Mr. BELIN. Into your face.

How far were you from the School Book Depository Building when you heard the shots?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh, I probably was 125 yards. 100 to 125 yards, I would say.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be from the nearest corner of the building or from the front of Elm Street?

Mr. ROMACK. From the nearest corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. From the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. How close did the shots sound like they came together?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh, they happened pretty fast. I would say maybe 3 or 4 seconds apart.

Mr. BELIN. Were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was closer than another one in time?

Mr. ROMACK. It sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. They rang out pretty fast.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever operated a bolt action rifle?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you own one?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be operated with a bolt action rifle?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of rifle do you have now, by the way?

Mr. ROMACK. I have a--it is a--I can't answer that really.

Mr. BELIN. What caliber?

Mr. ROMACK. It is a 30-06.

Mr. BELIN. 30-06 rifle?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, it is. And it is an old World War I mechanism. It is either an Enfleld or a Springfield.

Mr. BELIN. Bolt action?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots?

Mr. ROMACK. I don't, wouldn't think that I would be that good a shot; no, sir; because I shot at an elk four times and I hit him everywhere and missed him one time out of four.

Mr. BELIN. How far was it?

Mr. ROMACK. He was, I would say, 350 to 500 yards away. He was quite a distance.

Mr. BELIN. Maybe I should have asked the question this way. Suppose he was 100 yards away or else 50 yards?

Mr. ROMACK. I would be more accurate with my shooting, I sure would.

Mr. BELIN. If he were, say, from 40 to 75 yards away, or not an elk, a person, do you think you could shoot 40 to 75 yards away accurately as quickly as you heard those rifle sounds?

Mr. ROMACK. I wouldn't say I could; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you think an accurate rifleman could?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I knew something was wrong. I mean, I could sense that within my own self.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. ROMACK. And I looked up and I felt kind of chilly looking down towards the--which I am facing the Houston entrance, and I looked down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade was passing by, and just immediately after I heard the shots, I saw a policeman running north towards me. He was running to look to see if somebody was running out of the back of this building.

Mr. BELIN. What building?

Mr. ROMACK. Texas School Book Depository Building. And he didn't stay but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back.

Well, sensing that something is wrong, I automatically take over watching the building for the man.

Mr. BELIN. What part of the building were you watching?

Mr. ROMACK. The back part.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see that back dock in the back part?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I mean, they got it sealed off. I could see as much as anyone could see.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see--there are some stairs that go up to the back dock, aren't there?

Mr. ROMACK. Right here.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a first floor plan of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those stairs?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time I did take my back off, turn my back to the building was Sam Pate with his KBOX news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone.

Mr. BELIN. Is that KBOX?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a radio or television station?

Mr. ROMACK. It is a radio station.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you take your eyes off then?

Mr. ROMACK. He was driving up and they were having a little high--the city has a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through, and I'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you leave your post?

Mr. ROMACK. I didn't leave. That was right there, even closer than what we were. But all I did was let that down for him, and then we----

Mr. BELIN. Would that have taken less than a minute?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds, do you know?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay after that watching that back door?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, we were all there watching it then.

Mr. BELIN. How long a period of time?

Mr. ROMACK. Pardon?

Mr. BELIN. Did you see a policeman go up there?

Mr. ROMACK. I saw policemen up in there. I didn't see anyone come up the back. They came in the front, all--most of them.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any employees walk up the back way?

Mr. ROMACK. There was two other gentlemen which I never said anything about, that taken over. They were FBI or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. See anyone else?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad cars. They started coming in, I would say, in 4 minutes from the time that this happened. They were swarming the building, which naturally I quit watching anything particular.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, about 4 minutes after the shots came you quit watching it? Would that be accurate, or not?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I would say somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 minutes, 4 or 5 minutes. That would probably be true. I stayed there, but I wasn't particularly watching.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, then as I understand your testimony, you said that from about the time of the shots until about 5 minutes after the shots, you watched the back door of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave the building?

Mr. ROMACK. They wasn't anyone left the building.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter the building other than a police officer?

Mr. ROMACK. No one entered while I was standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running down the street near you at all?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing? How far were you from this stairway going to this Houston Street dock?

Mr. ROMACK. Well, after this KBOX--you are asking prior to before he got there?

Mr. BELIN. Before KBOX got there first?

Mr. ROMACK. I would say I moved between 75 yards.

Mr. BELIN. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. ROMACK. 75 yards of the northeast corner of the building.

Mr. BELIN. After KBOX got there?

Mr. ROMACK. He got to about, I would say, maybe 35 yards to the building, or 40. That is where he parked his car.

Mr. BELIN. How long did he stay, KBOX?

Mr. ROMACK. Oh. I would say 35 or 40 minutes. Then I went and called my wife and was telling her the sad news, and then I went back and stayed again. I ended up laying off work. I didn't even work that afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact the FBI?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?

Mr. ROMACK. It was on a Saturday night after I got in from work.

Mr. BELIN. What month was it?

Mr. ROMACK. It was this past month.

Mr. BELIN. You mean March?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What caused you to contact the FBI in March?

Mr. ROMACK. I was trying to pinpoint the day that I must have come in from work. It was on the weekend that I'd come home, and there was a paper up in the left-hand corner.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the newspaper?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Dallas newspaper?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Which one, do you know, offhand?

Mr. ROMACK. Herald, the paper that I take.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see in the paper?

Mr. ROMACK. I saw an article that was written by a guy, which I have been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination and I got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with about me sitting there and watching the building. It just kind of upset me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story.

Mr. BELIN. What is the story that you read that you got concerned about?

Mr. ROMACK. About a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which was brown or gray or blue, and he heard 4 shots.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember what page of the paper this was on?

Mr. ROMACK. It was on the headlines. I don't mean the headlines. It was on the front page in the left corner of the page.

Mr. BELIN. Now you say something concerned you about the article. Was it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and that is what I was out there doing. That is what I was doing. I was watching.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the portion of the article that concerned you was that someone said that someone else was running?

Mr. ROMACK. Towards Pacific Street.

Mr. BELIN. Towards Pacific Street from the direction of the School Book Depository?

Mr. ROMACK. That is the way the article read, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you tell the FBI when you called them?

Mr. ROMACK. I told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that I am telling you right now today.

Mr. BELIN. Have I ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you before this morning?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately?

Mr. ROMACK. Right. Unless you called me last Saturday. I don't remember who called me.

Mr. BELIN. Well, on Saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell you to come down here?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did that person talk to you about the facts that we were talking about now?

Mr. ROMACK. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It wasn't I, just for the record. I believe it was the Secret Service that called you, but I am not sure.

Mr. ROMACK. It was.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I understand your testimony correctly, what you are stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building towards you, at least within the first 5 minutes after the shots?

Mr. ROMACK. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You don't think anyone went out of the building during the first 5 minutes after the shots?

Mr. ROMACK. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else, any other information you have that you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. ROMACK. I can't think of anything, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time to come down here. We appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the FBI to contact them for this information.

Mr. ROMACK. Well, I felt that--I called an attorney that I know and talked to him about the deal before I called the FBI, and I told him I wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. It was something I just didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he felt it was my duty to call the FBI and let them know.

And that is when I went ahead and made my statement.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Romack, you have the right, if you want, to come back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading it and signing it and just have her send it directly to Washington, whatever you want to do. It makes no difference with us.

Mr. ROMACK. I will waive.

Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it then?

Mr. ROMACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Again we want to thank you very much.

Mr. ROMACK. You are quite welcome.

TESTIMONY OF LEE E. BOWERS, JR.

The testimony of Lee E. Bowers, Jr. was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Bowers?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. BOWERS. Lee E. Bowers, Jr.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. BOWERS. 10508 Maplegrove Lane.

Mr. BALL. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BOWERS. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And would you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or occupation?

Mr. BOWERS. I was born right here in Dallas, and lived here most of my life except when I was in the Navy, at the age of 17 to 21, and I was away 2 years going to Hardin Simmons University, also, attended Southern Methodist University 2 years, majoring in religion. I worked for the railroad 15 years and was a self-employed builder, as well as--on the side. And the first of this year when I went to work as business manager for Dr. Tim Green who operates this hospital and convalescent home and rent properties.

Mr. BALL. What railroad did you work for?

Mr. BOWERS. Worked for the Union Terminal Co. with the 8 participating railroads.

Mr. BALL. And on November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing for them?

Mr. BOWERS. I was tower man in the north tower, Union Terminal, operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains.

Mr. BALL. Through railroad yards?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work?

Mr. BOWERS. 7 to 3 p.m., Monday through Friday.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground at which you worked in the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. It is second story, it is 14 feet, 12 or 14 feet.

Mr. BALL. You worked about 14 feet above the ground?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the tower was arranged so that you could see out?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each corner. It is windows on all four sides.

Mr. BALL. Where is that located with reference to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BOWERS. It is west and north of this corner, and as to distances, I really don't know. It is within 50 yards of the back of the School Depository Building, or less.

Mr. BALL. Did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of the tower on higher ground than around Houston and Elm?

Mr. BOWERS. Approximately the same.

Mr. BALL. Same? It is higher ground than Elm as it recedes down under the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes, sir; considerably.

Mr. BALL. And the base of your tower is about the same height as the triple underpass, isn't it?

Mr. BOWERS. Approximately.

Mr. BALL. Now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple underpass? In our conversation here before you were sworn your description--you described it as a triple underpass.

Mr. BOWERS. It is just a local connotation for it since there are three streets that run under it.

Mr. BALL. I see. And how many sets of tracks do you control from your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. There are about 11 tracks in the station and 2 freight tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be 13 tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that pass in front of your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and split off to various railroad yards----

Mr. BALL. And the tracks are to the north and west of your tower, aren't they?

Mr. BOWERS. Well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all directions, I mean, they are both north and south.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were on duty on November 22, 1963, weren't you?

Mr. BOWERS. That's correct.

Mr. BALL. Close to noon, did you make any observation of the area around between your tower and Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by police for some 2 hours. Since approximately 10 o'clock in the morning traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around could actually be observed. Since I had worked there for a number of years I was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the area.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any cars around there?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; there were three cars that came in during the time from around noon until the time of the shooting.

Mr. BALL. Came in where?

Mr. BOWERS. They came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the extension of Elm Street, which runs in front of the School Depository, and which there is no way out. It is not a through street to anywhere.

Mr. BALL. There is parking area behind the School Depository, between that building and your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. Two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking area for the employees.

Mr. BALL. And the first came along that you noticed about what time of day?

Mr. BOWERS. I do not recall the exact time, but I believe this was approximately 12:10, wouldn't be too far off.

Mr. BALL. And the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was it?

Mr. BOWERS. The car proceeded in front of the School Depository down across 2 or 3 tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he could, the same outlet he came into.

Mr. BALL. The place where Elm dead ends?

Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Back in front of the School Depository was the only way he could get out. And I lost sight of him, I couldn't watch him.

Mr. BALL. What was the description of that car?

Mr. BOWERS. The first car was a 1959 Oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-State license.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what State?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I do not. I would know it, I could identify it, I think, if I looked at a list.

Mr. BALL. And, it had something else, some bumper stickers?

Mr. BOWERS. Had a bumper sticker, one of which was a Goldwater sticker, and the other of which was of some scenic location, I think.

Mr. BALL. And, did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes, some 15 minutes or so after this, at approximately 12 o'clock, 20 to 12--I guess 12:20 would be close to it, little time differential there--but there was another car which was a 1957 black Ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or something that gave the appearance of that at least.

Mr. BALL. How could you tell that?

Mr. BOWERS. He was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. He was very close to the tower. I could see him as he proceeded around the area.

Mr. BALL. What kind of license did that have?

Mr. BOWERS. Had a Texas license.

Mr. BALL. What did it do as it came into the area, from what street?

Mr. BOWERS. Came in from the extension of Elm Street in front of the School Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it leave?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; after 3 or 4 minutes cruising around the area it departed the same way. He did probe a little further into the area than the first car.

Mr. BALL. Did you see another car?

Mr. BOWERS. Third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or nine minutes before the shooting, I believe was a 1961 or 1962 Chevrolet, four-door Impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. It was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car I observed, occupied also by one white male.

Mr. BALL. What did it do?

Mr. BOWERS. He spent a little more time in the area. He tried--he circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly cruised down back towards the front of the School Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. Then did he leave?

Mr. BOWERS. The last I saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site.

Mr. BALL. Did the car park, or continue on or did you notice?

Mr. BOWERS. Whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it pulled up only a short distance, I couldn't tell. I was busy.

Mr. BALL. How long was this before the President's car passed there?

Mr. BOWERS. This last car? About 8 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Were you in a position where you could see the corner of Elm and Houston from the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not see the corner of Elm and Houston. I could see the corner of Main and Houston as they came down and turned on, then I couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed the corner of Elm and Houston the car came in sight again.

Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car coming out the Houston Street from Main, did you?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I saw that.

Mr. BALL. Then you lost sight of it?

Mr. BOWERS. Right. For a moment.

Mr. BALL. Then you saw it again where?

Mr. BOWERS. It came in sight after it had turned the corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. BOWERS. I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together. Also reverberation from the shots.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?

Mr. BOWERS. The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to tell which?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. No; I could not.

Mr. BALL. From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?

Mr. BOWERS. There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; quite often.

Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.

Mr. BALL. And you had heard noises originating from the Texas School Depository when they were building there?

Mr. BOWERS. They were renovating. I--did carpenter work as well as sandblasted the outside of the building.

Mr. BALL. Now, were there any people standing on the high side--high ground between your tower and where Elm Street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. One man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.

Mr. BALL. Were they standing together or standing separately?

Mr. BOWERS. They were standing within 10 or 15 feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as I knew.

Mr. BALL. In what direction were they facing?

Mr. BOWERS. They were facing and looking up towards Main and Houston, and following the caravan as it came down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.

Mr. BALL. You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were there before and after.

Mr. BALL. And were they standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people up on this high ground?

Mr. BOWERS. There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a slight distance back.

Mr. BALL. When you heard the sound, which way were you looking?

Mr. BOWERS. At the moment I heard the sound, I was looking directly towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area.

Mr. BALL. And when you heard the second and third shot, could you see the car?

Mr. BOWERS. No; at the moment of the shots, I could--I do not think that it was in sight. It came in sight immediately following the last shot.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?

Mr. BOWERS. At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.

Mr. BALL. On his motorcycle?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he come by way of Elm Street?

Mr. BOWERS. He was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which I did not know.

Mr. BALL. He came up----

Mr. BOWERS. He came almost to the top and I believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. How did he get up?

Mr. BOWERS. He just shot up over the curb and up.

Mr. BALL. He didn't come then by way of Elm, which dead ends there?

Mr. BOWERS. No; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL. Was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people?

Mr. BOWERS. He came up into this area where there are some trees, and where I had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this.

Mr. BALL. Were the two men there at the time?

Mr. BOWERS. I--as far as I know, one of them was. The other I could not say.

The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. The one in the white shirt, yes; I think he was.

Mr. BALL. When you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? What did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion?

Mr. BOWERS. I just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which I could not identify.

Mr. BALL. You couldn't describe it?

Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I could pinpoint as having happened that----

Mr. BALL. Afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower?

Mr. BOWERS. A large number of people came, more than one direction. One group converged from the corner of Elm and Houston, and came down the extension of Elm and came into the high ground, and another line--another large group went across the triangular area between Houston and Elm and then across Elm and then up the incline. Some of them all the way up.

Many of them did, as well as, of course, between 50 and a hundred policemen within a maximum of 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. In this area around your tower?

Mr. BOWERS. That's right. Sealed off the area, and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train.

Mr. BALL. I believe you have talked this over with me before your deposition was taken, haven't we?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything that you told me that I haven't asked you about that you think of?

Mr. BOWERS. Nothing that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. You have told me all that you know about this, haven't you?

Mr. BOWERS. Yes; I believe that I have related everything which I have told the city police, and also told to the FBI.

Mr. BALL. And everything you told me before we started taking the deposition?

Mr. BOWERS. To my knowledge I can remember nothing else.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish.

What do you wish?

Mr. BOWERS. I have no reason to sign it unless you want me to.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive the signature?

Mr. BOWERS. Fine.

Mr. BALL. Then we thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF B. J. MARTIN

The testimony of B. J. Martin was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MARTIN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state you name, please?

Mr. MARTIN. B. J. Martin.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. MARTIN. 11830 Flamingo Lane, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. MARTIN. I am a police officer.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. MARTIN. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, when you were born and where you were raised and where you went to school?

Mr. MARTIN. I was born in Maud, Okla., Seminole County--went to school--high school at Maud, Okla., and entered the Navy in 1948, from there and was discharged in 1952 and lived at Compton, Okla., for approximately a year, and then returned to Dallas and was employed in the Police Department in June 1953.

Mr. BALL. And were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I was employed as an apprentice policeman and worked in the radio patrol division.

Mr. BALL. You are not a motorcycleman?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a motorcycle officer?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, 8 years in January.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you have some special assignment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I was assigned to the motorcade of President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. And you went out to Love Field, did you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we made detail about 7 o'clock that morning and was assigned, I don't recall now just what time--it was about 30 minutes before his plane was to arrive at Love Field.

Mr. BALL. And in the motorcade what was your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. And were you riding alone there, or was another officer riding with you?

Mr. MARTIN. There was another officer riding with me, B. W. Hargis.

Mr. BALL. He was parallel to you on another motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; we were----

Mr. BALL. Two motorcycles abreast?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As you turned onto Houston from Main, can you tell me about the speed of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. My estimation would be 4 to 5 miles an hour when we made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston.

Mr. BALL. From Houston?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you make the turn from Main to Houston about the same speed?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; we were going a little faster, I would say--between probably 10 and 15 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade slow down?

Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Let's take the President's car--what do you think the speed of the President's car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour.

Mr. BALL. What was your speed?

Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same--maybe a mile slower.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine.

Mr. BALL. Did the President's car pick up any speed from the corner of Houston and Elm--we'll say half way down that hill?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't recall it picking up any speed in there.

Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any unusual noise?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I heard a shot, or what I thought at the time to be a shot.

Mr. BALL. What was the position of your motorcycle at that time with reference to the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car.

Mr. BALL. How far from the car, I'll say, to the left of the car and then how far to the rear--so I can get some idea of your position?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say that my motor was 5-foot to the left and approximately 6- to 8-foot to the rear.

Mr. BALL. Of the President's car?

Mr. MARTIN. Of the President's car.

Mr. BALL. Were you anywhere near the front end of the Secret Service car?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The car the Secret Service men were in?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. The best I can remember--I was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, and I was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, where was the motorcycle driven by Mr. Hargis, with reference to your right or to your left?

Mr. MARTIN. He was to my right when we made the turn on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. At the time you heard this shot, where was he?

Mr. MARTIN. I presume he was still to my right. I don't recall seeing him after the shots.

Mr. BALL. He would have been closer to the President's car than you would have?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--he would have been--I would say 3- or 4-foot closer than I was.

Mr. BALL. You traveled along the street about 3 or 4 feet apart from each other?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--something like that.

Mr. BALL. When you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the direction which the shot was coming from?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I didn't. I couldn't tell from which direction it was coming--any of the shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. After which shot?

Mr. MARTIN. After the first shot.

Mr. BALL. You looked to your right?

Mr. MARTIN. I looked back to my right.

Mr. BALL. What did you look at?

Mr. MARTIN. At the building on the right there.

Mr. BALL. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle also, or did you turn your body?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe I just turned my body. I don't believe I ever turned my motor. I believe I kept my motor headed down Elm Street--west on Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any notice of the President after the first shot?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I looked at the President after I heard the shot and he was leaning forward--I could see the left side of his face. At the time he had no expression on his face.

Mr. BALL. Then, did you hear some more shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. MARTIN. Two more shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything when you looked at the School Depository Building?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--just the building.

Mr. BALL. And were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last two shots--from which direction they came?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from.

Mr. BALL. Was there any breeze that day?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; there was.

Mr. BALL. From what direction?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that particular location. It seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of Houston onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. The wind was in your face?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then?

Mr. MARTIN. After we turned onto Houston?

Mr. BALL. No; after the shots?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes--after the shots we picked up speed.

Mr. BALL. Did you go on to Parkland?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I did. I rode just part of the time alongside of the President's car. At times we were forced to the rear because of the pedestrians standing out on Stemmons and there just wasn't enough room to ride in there.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the President?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I couldn't see him--immediately after the first shot I saw him and after that I couldn't see him.

Mr. BALL. And did you see the Governor at all?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir. I didn't pay any attention to the Governor.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you got to Parkland Hospital, what did you do?

Mr. MARTIN. We pulled into the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital. The traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of the motorcade went on down into the exit and I stopped off at the first turn into the exit about 50 or 60 yards from the entrance to the emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to park cars and just generally work traffic around there.

Mr. BALL. You had a white helmet on?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice any stains on your helmet?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, I noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then I pulled off my helmet and I noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet.

Mr. BALL. To give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just to the left--of what would be the center of my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it.

Mr. BALL. And were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh.

Mr. BALL. What about your uniform?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform.

Mr. BALL. You pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that about where it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On the front of your uniform and not on the side?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. That would be left, was it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes; on the left side.

Mr. BALL. And just below the level of the shoulder?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what spots were there?

Mr. MARTIN. They were blood spots and other matter.

Mr. BALL. And what did you notice on your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. There was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor.

Mr. BALL. Was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches?

Mr. MARTIN. No; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was not very noticeable unless you looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable?

Mr. MARTIN. Not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed it.

Mr. BALL. At that time were you with Mr. Hargis?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; I don't believe that he went to the hospital with us. I believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BALL. And did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the windshield of his motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir--I never recall seeing him again until the next day.

Mr. BALL. Now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your windshield?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. Was it on the right or left side?

Mr. MARTIN. It was on the outside of my windshield.

Mr. BALL. And what about the fender of the motorcycle?

Mr. MARTIN. It was just in the front--right on the front just above the cowling on the motorcycle.

Mr. BALL. You say that when you first heard the first shot you thought it was rifle fire?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir--the sharp crack of it.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever fire a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have been hunting, I suppose?

Mr. MARTIN. I just returned.

Mr. BALL. You've shot high-powered rifles, have you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what do you think the speed of the President's car was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the President's car when you heard the first shot?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say it was under 10 miles an hour--between 5 and 10 at that particular time, about the time of the shots.

Mr. BALL. You were going downhill at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. The best I remember--I wasn't having any trouble keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between 5 and 10 miles an hour. I don't think it was any faster than 10.

Mr. BALL. Did you at any time come abreast of the President's car in the motorcade?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the car you were to keep?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were those instructions?

Mr. MARTIN. They instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past the President's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Officer.

This will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the Commission without it.

It's your option.

What would you like to do?

Mr. MARTIN. It doesn't make any difference--it's the truth as I saw it that day.

Mr. BALL. You just as soon waive your signature, then?

Mr. MARTIN. That would be fine.

Mr. BALL. All right, we'll waive your signature.

Mr. MARTIN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

Mr. MARTIN. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF BOBBY W. HARGIS

The testimony of Bobby W. Hargis was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. STERN. Will you stand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HARGIS. I do.

Mr. STERN. Would you state for the record your name and residence address.

Mr. HARGIS. Bobby W. Hargis, 1818 Adelaide, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HARGIS. Police officer.

Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HARGIS. Nine years and about 7 months.

Mr. STERN. And you are now a member of the motorcycle----

Mr. HARGIS. Division.

Mr. STERN. Division?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Were you a part of the motorcade on November 22d?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I was.

Mr. STERN. In what position?

Mr. HARGIS. I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential limousine.

Mr. STERN. At what part of the President's car?

Mr. HARGIS. Well----

Mr. STERN. Front, or rear?

Mr. HARGIS. Oh. Rear.

Mr. STERN. Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. HARGIS. Right.

Mr. STERN. Will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the limousine turned into Elm Street?

Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time that the limousine turned left on Elm Street I was staying pretty well right up with the car. Sometimes on Elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face.

Mr. STERN. On Governor Connally's?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; that is why I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. I don't know whether it was the second or the third shot. Everything happened so fast.

Mr. STERN. But, you cannot now recall more than two shots?

Mr. HARGIS. That is all that I can recall remembering. Of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been 30 more shots that I probably never would have noticed them.

Mr. STERN. Did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have just described?

Mr. HARGIS. You mean about the blood hitting me?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"----

Mr. STERN. Someone inside----

Mr. HARGIS. I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.

Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots?

Mr. HARGIS. Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from.

Mr. STERN. You were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I knew they were shots.

Mr. STERN. All right, what did you do then? You say you parked your motorcycle?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh----

Mr. STERN. Where?

Mr. HARGIS. It was to the left-hand side of the street from--south side of Elm Street.

Mr. STERN. And then what did you do?

Mr. HARGIS. I ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and I remembered seeing people scattering and running and then I looked----

Mr. STERN. People on the overpass?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; people that were there to see the President I guess. They were taking pictures and things. It was kind of a confused crowd. I don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening or what--and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew where the shots were coming from, so----

Mr. STERN. How about the people on the incline on the north side of Elm Street? Do you recall their behavior?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes; I remember a man holding a child. Fell to the ground and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere, trying to get out of there, I guess, and they were about as confused as to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was.

Mr. STERN. And did you run up the incline on your side of Elm Street?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes, sir; I ran to the light post, and I ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if I could get a better look on the bridge, and, of course, I was looking all around that place by that time. I knew it couldn't have come from the county courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over there.

Mr. STERN. Did you get behind the picket fence that runs from the overpass to the concrete wall?

Mr. HARGIS. No.

Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street?

Mr. HARGIS. No, no; I don't remember any picket fence.

Mr. STERN. Did you observe anything then on the overpass, or on the incline, or around the Depository? Anything out of the ordinary besides people running?

Mr. HARGIS. No; I didn't. That is what got me.

Mr. STERN. So, at that point you were still uncertain as to the direction of the shots?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes, uh-huh.

Mr. STERN. Then, what did you do?

Mr. HARGIS. Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on, but none of them were looking towards, or near anywhere the shots had been fired from. At the time I didn't know, but about the only activity I could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge so----

Mr. STERN. What sort of activity was that?

Mr. HARGIS. Well, the people that were up there were just trying to get a better look at what was happening and was in a haze and running, or in a confused fashion, and I thought maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle.

Mr. STERN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARGIS. Then I got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if I could see anyone running away from the scene, and since I didn't see anyone coming from that direction I rode under the second underpass, which is Stemmons Expressway and went up around to see if I could see anyone coming from across Stemmons and back that way, and I couldn't see anything that was of a suspicious nature, so, I came back to the Texas School Book Depository. At that time it seemed like the activity was centered around the Texas School Book Depository, so, that is when I heard someone say, one of the sergeants or lieutenants, I don't know, "Don't let anyone out of the Texas School Book Depository," and so, I went to a gap that had not been filled, which was at the southwest corner.

Mr. STERN. And you remained there until you were relieved?

Mr. HARGIS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Anything else that you haven't told us that you think is relevant to our inquiry?

Mr. HARGIS. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis.

The reporter will transcribe your testimony and have it available for you to read and sign if you care to. Otherwise, you may waive your right to review and sign the testimony and she will mail it direct to the Commission, whichever you prefer. It is entirely your option.

Mr. HARGIS. Well; it really doesn't make any difference. It is more or less what you all think is best.

Mr. STERN. It's entirely up to you.

Mr. HARGIS. Well, how long will it be until she fixes it up?

Mr. STERN. Well, off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. On the record.

Mr. HARGIS. All right. Well, just go ahead and I will just let you go ahead and send it in without the signature.

Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hargis.

TESTIMONY OF CLYDE A. HAYGOOD

Testimony of Clyde A. Haygood was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Clyde A. Haygood.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Thirty-two.

Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school here in Texas?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Finished high school.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into the service.

Mr. BELIN. What branch?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Air Force.

Mr. BELIN. How long?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Four years to the day.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Air Force, generally?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Ground crew chief, flight engineer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have an honorable discharge?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Air Force?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. 1955.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Other than 11 months in which I left the department.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in that 11 months?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went into a business of my own.

Mr. BELIN. Then went back to the department?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Solo motorcycle officer on escort of the Presidential motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. You started with the motorcade at Love Field?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Went through town with him?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you riding as you went through town?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Riding to the right rear of the Presidential car.

Mr. BELIN. How many cars back, if you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it varied. It would be hard to say as to how many cars back.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether Officer M. L. Baker was riding?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He was riding in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. So you would be riding several cars back, generally, from the President's car, is that correct?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots at all?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on Main Street just approaching Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Three.

Mr. BELIN. Were the three spaced equally distant?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was one more close than the other one?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The last two were closer than the first. In other words, it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real close.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard the sounds?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by the scene of the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. There on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. On Main Street?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I am sorry, on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What position of Elm Street?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Be just west of Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. By the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where you believed the President's car was when the bullets struck?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. When I first got to the location there, I was still on Houston Street, and in the process of making a left turn onto Elm Street I could see all these people laying on the ground there on Elm. Some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and I immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the 400 block, which was too high for me to get over.

Mr. BELIN. You mean with your motorcycle?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HAYGOOD. And I left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of Elm?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The railroad yard would be located at the--it consist of going over Elm Street and back north of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, there was nothing. There was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time I went back to my motorcycle--it was on the street--to the radio.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running away from there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. They was all going to it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any people over there or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. In the railroad yard, I talked to one of the people I presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Had he been in the yard before or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. He was just coming into the area after I was.

Mr. BELIN. He was coming into the area after the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you, that you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Nothing that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time some people came up and started talking to me as to the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. HAYGOOD. One stated that he had seen the President when the first shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where the shot came from?

Mr. HAYGOOD. And I asked him about where the shots came from, and he stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first shot was fired, and that he slumped. And when the second shot was fired, he went completely out of sight.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to any other witnesses there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. There was another one came up who was located, at the time he stated, on the south side of Elm Street back toward the triple underpass. Back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just to the right of his nose.

Mr. BELIN. Would he have been to the front or to the back of the Presidential car at the time of the shot?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't know what you mean to the front or the back.

Mr. BELIN. When he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of the President's car at the time of the shooting?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He would be to the south of it and then west.

Mr. BELIN. Southwest of it?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Talk to anyone else?

Mr. HAYGOOD. And at that time, approximately, well, I was talking to him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from this building there which he pointed out to be the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He said when the first shot was fired he glanced back and there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was definite that the shots did come from there.

And after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that time, I called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the Texas School Book Depository Building off.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your number was that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Beg your pardon?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what number you used for calling the dispatcher that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes. My original call number is 142.

Mr. BELIN. I have here a Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and I notice that at 12:35 p.m., there is a call from 142 to 531. 531 is your station headquarters?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to read what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "I talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building with the Hertz Rent A Car sign on top."

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you said?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Approximately. I don't recall the exact words.

Mr. BELIN. There was a response to you. What does it say there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "Get his name, address, phone number and all information you can."

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I never.

Mr. BELIN. What happened?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Because I was told to go to the School Book Depository Building. I instructed the three different people to come to the front of the School Book Depository Building and remain there until they were talked to.

Mr. BELIN. You took these people that you had with you?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I did not take them, no.

Mr. BELIN. You instructed them to go there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the School Book Depository?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And remain there until someone talked to them?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know the names of these people?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who talked to them at all?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I went to the School Building at the rear location of it, which would be----

Mr. BELIN. To the back door?

Mr. HAYGOOD. North side of it, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where that door leads out there to the dock?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; on the northeast corner there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time I talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some 5 minutes or so.

And I asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember his name?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and I went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That is about all.

Mr. BELIN. Did you search the building on the sixth floor or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the shells?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the shells were found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. I was still on the sixth when they found the rifle--on the fifth.

Mr. BELIN. On the fifth?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Sixth floor, rather, I am sorry.

Mr. BELIN. Where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall just exactly where it was at. It was on the floor there, though. It was just a big open floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear someone say they have shells, something like that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Went up to another location there.

Mr. BELIN. You saw some shells there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them?

Mr. HAYGOOD. They were there under the window.

Mr. BELIN. Which window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. South side or east side?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On the southeast corner facing south.

Mr. BELIN. See any paper bags or anything around there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was a lunch bag there. You could call it a lunch bag.

Mr. BELIN. Where was that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. There at the same location where the shells were.

Mr. BELIN. Was there a coke bottle or anything with it?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Dr. Pepper bottle.

Mr. BELIN. See any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half or more long?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner.

Mr. BELIN. What, tape?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. Just a brown paper bag with paper tape. It had been taped up.

Mr. BELIN. How long was that, if you can remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The exact length, I couldn't say. It was approximately rifle length.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been right under the window, or to the east or west of the window, if you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. As I remember, it was directly in the corner, in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Well, as you remember, was the window directly in the southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that corner, if you remember?

Mr. HAYGOOD. The window at that location faces south, on the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. About how far from the east corner of the building is the window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it is just approximately like that, and then the corner here. Like the window would be there, and then it would be a corner.

Mr. BELIN. As far as the window in this room from that corner [indicating in room]?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of the window from the corner. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you don't know, that is what I want to find out.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was the bag right under the window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Not under the window?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you noticed up there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where were you when you saw the--when you heard a rifle had been found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On the floor there, best as I can remember, and I went to that same location as the other one, just like I stated on the other one where the shells was found.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. Be on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you remember while you were there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, after the rifle was found?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while after that.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. At that time after that I went to the street, went downstairs to the street.

Mr. BELIN. Did you participate in any other investigation that day?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday?

Mr. HAYGOOD. On Saturday I was on my way to Colorado.

Mr. BELIN. So you weren't around on Sunday either?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No. On Sunday when the other shooting was taking place, I was knee deep in snow in Colorado.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way would be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, nothing; I was out of town.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir. We thank you very much for your cooperation here. You have an opportunity, if you want to come down and read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the reading and signing of it and just have the court reporter send it directly to us, whatever you want to do?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It makes no difference.

Mr. BELIN. It makes no difference to us either.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Just waive the signing. I don't know when I can get back over here.

(Officer Haygood was summoned back in a few minutes from across the street at the Republic National Bank Building to answer the following question.)

Mr. BELIN. Officer Haygood, I will continue your deposition with one more question, if you would, and you are still under oath.

You mentioned in your sworn deposition that you talked to about two people that you saw, and you pointed it out in your transmission at 12:35 p.m., under your Call No. 142.

Is that correct?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Right.

Mr. BELIN. I notice on there another transmission at 12:37 p.m. Could you read what the transcript has there.

Mr. HAYGOOD. Well, this part of the deposition I covered it a while ago but I gave you, is when I called to have the Texas School Book Depository covered there. That is one of the witnesses I had that believed the shot came from that location.

Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you said there?

Mr. HAYGOOD. It says, "Get men to cover the building, Texas School Book Depository, believe the shots came from there, facing it on Elm Street looking at the building it will be the second window from the end in the upper right hand corner."

Mr. BELIN. Did you say that?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then the transmission made to you, 531 to 142 calling, "How many do you have there?"

And you made a response which is?

Mr. HAYGOOD. "One guy possibly hit by a ricochet off the concrete and another seen the President slump."

Mr. BELIN. Were there two more people in addition to the one that you saw?

Mr. HAYGOOD. They are still the same people I was referring to back on the transmission that I made.

Mr. BELIN. How many different people did you talk to? One that was possibly hit by a ricochet?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Piece of concrete.

Mr. BELIN. Was he the one that saw the President slump?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there someone that saw the President slump, and a third stated it was from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. HAYGOOD. I don't recall how many it was. There was quite a chaos there at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if there were two or more than two?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the description of the man that said that the shot came from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner?

Mr. HAYGOOD. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was white or Negro?

Mr. HAYGOOD. He was a white man.

Mr. BELIN. Man or woman?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Man.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he was young or medium or old?

Mr. HAYGOOD. That would be a guess on my part. I don't recall. He was just a medium age.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was dressed in a suit or not a suit?

Mr. HAYGOOD. Best I remember, just sports clothes. I mean, it consisted of no tie or coat.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF E. D. BREWER

The testimony of E. D. Brewer was taken at 10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BREWER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name.

Mr. BREWER. E. D. Brewer.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. BREWER. Police officer for the City of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. BREWER. I am 32 years old.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. BREWER. I graduated from high school.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I got married and went to work for the Dallas Power & Light. About a year later I went into the U.S. Coast Guard and stayed 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I went to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them about 10 years now?

Mr. BREWER. Since December 1954.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was your assignment that day?

Mr. BREWER. I was riding solo motorcycle, in the Presidential motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. What position were you in in the motorcade?

Mr. BREWER. I was in the front.

Mr. BELIN. By which car? Near which car?

Mr. BREWER. If I remember correctly, the President's car was about--the Chief of Police was in a car immediately in front. The President's car was behind him, I believe, if I remember correctly, and I was in front of the Chief's car.

Mr. BELIN. You were in front of the Chief's car?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the lead part of the motorcade?

Mr. BREWER. Yes. I was the front vehicle. There was four or five of us up there in a line across the street.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how fast you were going as you went down Main Street there towards Houston?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir; not exactly. The speed of it would vary considerably according to the crowd of people on each side of the street as to how we could get through.

Mr. BELIN. Did you remember how fast you were going as you turned north on Houston?

Mr. BREWER. It was in my assignment to leave my position there and go ahead of the motorcade as we were approaching Houston on Main Street, and before we got to Houston Street I left. I pulled out ahead of them, and following the same route, went down to the intersection or to where the motorcade was to come onto Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. BELIN. So your speed wasn't necessarily accurate with the motorcade, is that correct, sometimes?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; I had pulled away from the motorcade on Main Street and proceeded on down to the Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot?

Mr. BREWER. I never did hear any shots.

Mr. BELIN. When was the first time you learned that something was wrong?

Mr. BREWER. I was on Stemmons Freeway there where you come onto it, where the motorcade come onto Stemmons. Went under Stemmons and around to the right and onto Stemmons, and I was on Stemmons Expressway off of my motorcycle there on the expressway when I believe I heard it on the radio first about the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Were you to stop traffic on the expressway?

Mr. BREWER. Yes. I was to assist some other officers in stopping traffic on the expressway to allow the motorcade to get onto it.

Mr. BELIN. So you were in the process of stopping traffic, waiting for the motorcade to come by, when you heard something on your motorcycle radio?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far were you from the so-called underpass there, or overpass there?

Mr. BREWER. I was to the north of where the railroad track goes over. Let's see, the railroad track, where the railroad tracks go over Stemmons Expressway. I was to the north of that.

Mr. BELIN. Let me try and get a sketch. Officer, I just stepped out of the room to come back in and bring a map of Dallas, which I believe is similar to Commission's Exhibit 371, which I am going to mark here Deposition Exhibit A, which we will call it E. D. Brewer deposition Exhibit A. I have it marked in red pencil here, and on this map of Dallas, on one side of it in one corner of it is a section called, Downtown Dallas, and this is towards the top of the reverse side of the map.

I am going to ask you to look at this map. You see the place here, it looks like Dedley Plaza, Main Street runs into that, which is Houston, then you turned north on Houston and Elm, and then you take Elm?

Mr. BREWER. Left on Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Left on Elm. You went under the railroad underpass there, which appears to be in green on the map, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then I am going to ask you to take a pencil or a ball point pen, and you might just follow the route that you took. Just mark it parallel to whatever street you took to where you ended up.

Mr. BREWER. (Marks on map.)

Down Elm under the railroad tracks to Stemmons, under Stemmons to the right, headed north parallel to Stemmons on that entranceway, under that T & P Railroad, and onto Stemmons Expressway, and just north of the T & P Railroad.

Mr. BELIN. Now is that where you stopped your motorcycle?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to put an arrow pointing to the spot that you stopped, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, that is the spot right there.

Mr. BELIN. You have it marked kind of with an "X"?

Mr. BREWER. To the best of my knowledge, that is right where we was at.

Mr. BELIN. Was another officer there at the time when you got there?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were they doing?

Mr. BREWER. We all proceeded to stop the traffic northbound on Stemmons.

Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to do that?

Mr. BREWER. So that the motorcade which was headed in that direction at that time could get onto Stemmons and wouldn't be interfered with by the rest of the traffic.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you when you first learned of the shooting or that something was wrong?

Mr. BREWER. At that location.

Mr. BELIN. How did you learn about it?

Mr. BREWER. I believe it was on the radio, we heard it.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BREWER. On the police radio. Well, when it was determined that--right after we heard that on the radio, something about it on the radio, we heard that they were enroute to Parkland Hospital, and immediately after that they came by us and came onto Stemmons Expressway and went by us in the direction of Parkland Hospital, the motorcade, part of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. We heard that the shots had came from the Texas School Book Depository Building, and at that time I got on my motorcycle and proceeded back up to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I went in the building.

Mr. BELIN. You went inside the building?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; there was officers all around the building at the time I got there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got in the building?

Mr. BREWER. Well, with some other officers, we was part of the officers that was searching the building floor by floor.

Mr. BELIN. Now what was your call number that day?

Mr. BREWER. 137.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which appears to be a transcript of a police log of the Dallas Police Department, you see this exhibit here?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Your call number that day was?

Mr. BREWER. 137.

Mr. BELIN. I notice here that the first time there appears Call No. 137, after 12:30 is at 12:38 p.m.

There is a call from 137 to 531. You want to read what it says there?

Mr. BREWER. "A witness says he saw 'em pull the weapon from the window off the second floor on the southeast corner of the Depository Building."

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been the second floor or the second floor from the top?

Mr. BREWER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any witness talking to you at all?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. BREWER. He said that he had saw him pull a weapon from the window from that building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what window he said?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember specifically which window he indicated, but I immediately told that to the dispatcher and proceeded on up to the building.

Mr. BELIN. I see the conversation continues on the next page. The dispatcher No. 531, to 137, "Do you have the building covered off?"

And then you reply:

Mr. BREWER. "I'm about three-fourths of a block away."

Mr. BELIN. Is that where you were when this man----

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now from the time you first heard that something was wrong, you had taken your motorcycle and gone where?

Mr. BREWER. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. You were on the Stemmons Freeway when you heard that something was wrong, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went from Stemmons Freeway where?

Mr. BREWER. Up to the Texas School Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stop anywhere along the way?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir; the only time that I stopped was when this guy come up to me and told it to me, and then was gone.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you did stop then and talk to this one individual?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Which street were you on when you stopped?

Mr. BREWER. I was proceeding back up Elm Street the wrong way on Elm.

Mr. BELIN. About where were you when this one person talked that said he saw him pull the weapon in?

Mr. BREWER. I was down there about the triple underpass on Elm.

Mr. BELIN. You mean right under the triple underpass?

Mr. BREWER. Or coming to it.

Mr. BELIN. Well, coming to it?

Mr. BREWER. From the west.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have been on the west side of that?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, right there about that curb.

Mr. BELIN. Before you left Stemmons Freeway, did you look up or around to see if there was anything suspicious in that area?

Mr. BREWER. We was all looking up in the railroad tracks from the west side.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything at all?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir; we saw some people coming up there, but they seemed to be up there looking.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you saw people up there searching?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anybody running away?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. See anyone acting suspiciously by himself?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you left that area and came right down the wrong way, you say, back to retrace your route, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then somewhere in the vicinity of the railroad underpass, you were stopped by this one individual that you reported on the radio log, is that correct?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether this man that you talked to was a white male or a Negro?

Mr. BREWER. He was a white man, the best of my memory.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else about him?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any camera or anything?

Mr. BREWER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Now after this order to report to the School Book Depository Building, what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I went there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. BREWER. Went in the building.

Mr. BELIN. Which door?

Mr. BREWER. By the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off by the time you got there?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were officers blocking everyone that was coming in, to prohibit them from coming in and going out?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. BREWER. I went inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. BREWER. I proceeded to assist in the floor to floor search of the building with some other officers.

Mr. BELIN. What floor did you start on?

Mr. BREWER. On the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far up did you go?

Mr. BREWER. We searched all of it before we quit.

Mr. BELIN. Well, were you ever on the 6th floor?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on the sixth floor when you found anything there?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find?

Mr. BREWER. I was on the sixth floor when they found those spent cases from the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when they found them?

Mr. BREWER. I don't know exactly. I was on the floor searching around in among some boxes that were stacked up there.

Mr. BELIN. Hear anyone say anything about cartridge cases or anything?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. Whoever found them turned around and let it be known to one of the supervisor officers that he had found them, or that they had been found over there.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard the news?

Mr. BREWER. I continued searching.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How many cartridge cases did you see?

Mr. BREWER. Three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were they?

Mr. BREWER. They were there under, by the window.

Mr. BELIN. What window?

Mr. BREWER. In the southeast corner of the building, facing south.

Mr. BELIN. See anything else there at the time by the window?

Mr. BREWER. Paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BREWER. A drink bottle.

Mr. BELIN. What bottle?

Mr. BREWER. A cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BREWER. In relation to what?

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the southeast corner?

Mr. BREWER. There was a paper, relatively long paper sack there.

Mr. BELIN. Where was that?

Mr. BREWER. It was there in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Under the window?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir. To the left of it. To the east of it.

Mr. BELIN. To the left as you faced the window?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did the window come right up next to the corner there, do you remember?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir; it didn't come up next to the corner. It was offset.

Mr. BELIN. Can you remember how far at all, or not?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir; I don't remember the exact distance of it.

Mr. BELIN. Was any part of the paper sack under the window, if you remember or not?

That long paper sack?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about what the sack looked like?

Mr. BREWER. Well, it was assumed at the time that it was the sack that the rifle was wrapped up in when it was brought into the building, and it appeared that it could have been used for that.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mean you assumed that before you found the rifle?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir; I suppose. That was discussed.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that was found around there or not?

Mr. BREWER. Not in that particular area.

Mr. BELIN. Anything found anywhere else in the sixth floor?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir. The rifle was found on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Where was that?

Mr. BREWER. It was found in a northwest corner under some, in between some boxes that were stacked up there at the head of the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they found the rifle?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far away from the area were you when you found the rifle, if you remember?

Mr. BREWER. Several feet from it. I don't remember exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the rifle?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where was it located?

Mr. BREWER. It was laying down low on the door or on the floor down between some, a very narrow space where boxes were stacked up there, and there was a space between the boxes, and it was laying down there in between it, like it had been stuck in there hurriedly, and possibly just before whoever laid it there went down the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you found of significance in the building at all or not?

Mr. BREWER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do the rest of the afternoon?

Mr. BREWER. Well, we proceeded to search the building after that, and we spent, I don't know the exact amount of time we spent in the building after that, but when Lieutenant Jack Revill was satisfied, we went back downstairs and I went back out to my motorcycle and to my immediate superior officer and received another assignment.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination that day?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about on Saturday?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sunday?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir. My primary job was traffic control.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of Officer Tippit's murder?

Mr. BREWER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. BREWER. Not that I can think of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, I want to thank you very much for coming on down here.

You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it sent directly to Washington, whichever you prefer.

Mr. BREWER. It don't matter. Whichever you prefer.

Mr. BELIN. We have no preference.

Mr. BREWER. Okay, you send it on.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive the signing of it?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF D. V. HARKNESS

The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HARKNESS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Your name, sir, would you please state?

Mr. HARKNESS. D. V. Harkness, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. HARKNESS. 2123 San Pablo.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What position do you have with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HARKNESS. Sergeant of police.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HARKNESS. Little over 17 years.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. HARKNESS. Forty-two.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. HARKNESS. High school.

Mr. BELIN. High school graduate?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. One year worked for the East Texas Refining Co.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Then I worked for the Baker Hotel in the auditing office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Went in the service for 4 years.

Mr. BELIN. Army?

Mr. HARKNESS. Coast Guard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Coast Guard generally?

Mr. HARKNESS. I was a boatswain's mate second when I was discharged.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Let's see, I was on the troop transport at the time of my discharge.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Come back and went to work for Alexander Motor Co.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Worked in the office in the purchasing department.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Went with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Been there ever since?

Mr. HARKNESS. Ever since.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty November 22, 1963?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.?

Mr. HARKNESS. At Main and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. On the east or west side of Houston?

Mr. HARKNESS. West side of Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade come by?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shots?

Mr. HARKNESS. I had started west on Main Street to the, I don't know what they call this area here.

Mr. BELIN. Plaza.

Mr. HARKNESS. On the plaza area with the crowd to observe the President as he went west on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. HARKNESS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you heard those noises? Did you know they were shots, by the way?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow down to almost a stop----

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that?

Mr. HARKNESS. When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the process of doing that when you heard the second and third shots?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from?

Mr. HARKNESS. I couldn't tell. They were bouncing off the buildings down there. I couldn't tell.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the reverberations?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. I went west on Main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and Industrial.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you go down there?

Mr. HARKNESS. By the way the people, when I went into this area, everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars.

Mr. BELIN. You mean from some point in front of the cars?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who that someone was?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did that person do that indicated that?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. I went down to Industrial to see if I could see anyone fleeing that area.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. HARKNESS. I didn't see anyone, so I come back to the front of the Book Depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean across the street from Elm Street?

Mr. HARKNESS. Again, I will have to--near the railroad track.

Mr. BELIN. Behind the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; this area right here. See, Elm Street goes down.

Mr. BELIN. What you are really saying----

Mr. HARKNESS. This area.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of Elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual extension of Elm?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; to the plaza area.

Mr. BELIN. The plaza area?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you find there?

Mr. HARKNESS. I found a little colored boy, Amos Euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building.

Mr. BELIN. Now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Or a notepad from your pocket here. Is that the original notation that you made?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you make that notation?

Mr. HARKNESS. Immediately after the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. I turned----

Mr. BELIN. You turned what?

Mr. HARKNESS. After I took his name and address and put this information on the radio, I then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in Inspector Sawyer's car.

Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, and I hand you here what has been marked as Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A. Before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you were using on that day?

Mr. HARKNESS. I believe 260.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I notice here that there is a call with a notation at 12:36 p.m., 260 to 531. 531 is your office in the main station?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What does it say there on that transcript?

Mr. HARKNESS. "Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Mr. BELIN. All right, that was at 12:36 p.m.?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had the building been sealed off at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge. There were several officers around it, but I don't know whether it had been sealed off or not.

Mr. BELIN. In the process of sealing off the building, what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Asked for a squad.

Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. The squad was arriving by the time I got off my motorcycle. There was already additional squads en route.

Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.

Mr. BELIN. You are talking about the back part of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the front part of the building? When was that sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. Inspector Sawyer and two officers were there.

Mr. BELIN. By the time you got around to the front part of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; by the time I put the witness in his car, I went immediately to the back.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, as I understand the sequence, you first went to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You tell me what happened then.

Mr. HARKNESS. I had this witness with me. I didn't want to lose this witness.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HARKNESS. So I took him to the car.

Mr. BELIN. To Inspector Sawyer's car?

Mr. HARKNESS. To Inspector Sawyer's car, which was right in front.

Mr. BELIN. Which was parked in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. HARKNESS. And left the witness there and went around to the back.

Mr. BELIN. On whose radio did you call? Did you call in before or after you left the witness in the car?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in the process of going to the car there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. See, here is the thing. The radio traffic was heavy at the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, after you made the call, what did you do on the radio? And after you got the man in the car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Well----

Mr. BELIN. The witness in the car, what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Stayed at the back of the building until I was relieved by a squad.

Mr. BELIN. So you then went to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you were at Inspector Sawyer's car, did you see him there?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he at his car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building yet?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS. Don't know whether he had gone in or not. Actually, he was standing there in front taking information. All the information was being funneled to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you had a witness?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In his car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you told him that?

Mr. HARKNESS. At that time?

Mr. BELIN. When you told Inspector Sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It had already been sealed off?

Mr. HARKNESS. There was two officers with Inspector Sawyer at the front.

Mr. BELIN. Were they stopping people from going in and out?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't know that, because I didn't go up and talk to them.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. No. I was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was.

Mr. BELIN. Then am I correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? Did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS. Several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. I don't know whether they were going in or out or not. I couldn't say that.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went around to the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone around in the back when you got there?

Mr. HARKNESS. There were some Secret Service agents there. I didn't get them identified. They told me they were Secret Service.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you stay around the back of the building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes; I stayed at the back until the squad got there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer--helped to get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some transients?

Mr. HARKNESS. Tramps and hoboes.

Mr. BELIN. That were on the freight car?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there.

We had several officers working in that area.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.

Mr. BELIN. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were all those questioned?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.

Mr. BELIN. Any guns of any kind found?

Mr. HARKNESS. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. I want to go back to this Amos Euins. Do you remember what he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him?

Mr. HARKNESS. I went in that crowd up there near the area there, and asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did he say?

Mr. HARKNESS. He told me that the shots came from the window under the ledge.

Mr. BELIN. Of what building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Of the School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Now have you since gone back to that building?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where the ledge is?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; let's see, I have been by the place a million times. The ledge there is the one window where it came from, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. You can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge would be?

Mr. HARKNESS. Well----

Mr. BELIN. If you can't, I would rather not have you guess, but if you do know, I would like to have you state.

Mr. HARKNESS. I believe that it----

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Between what floors is the ledge?

Mr. HARKNESS. The ledge is between, over the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. All right, well here in your police report I show you Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, you said the, "Witness says shots came from fifth floor Texas School Book Depository." Did the witness say it was from the sixth floor, or did he say it was from the fifth floor?

Mr. HARKNESS. He said it was from the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What were the exact words of the witness?

Mr. HARKNESS. The exact words of the witness "It was under the ledge," which would put it on the sixth floor. It was my error in a hasty count of the floors.

Mr. BELIN. Did the witness say what particular window on that floor that he saw it on?

On the floor under the ledge?

Mr. HARKNESS. Said it was the last window, which would indicate it would be the last window on the east side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the last window from where he was standing?

Mr. HARKNESS. Last window from where he was standing, and at that point it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of the building facing Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of Elm when you talked to this witness?

Mr. HARKNESS. I was.

Mr. BELIN. When you were with this witness, had this Amos Euins, were you standing on the north or the south side of Elm as it goes into the Parkway there?

Mr. HARKNESS. Elm as it goes under the Parkway--was between Elm where it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of Elm there in that park area.

Mr. BELIN. So that is where you were standing?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be north of Elm as it goes into the underpass, but south of the extension of Elm?

Mr. HARKNESS. Where that building is, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have been west of the School Book Depository Building at that time?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? That would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct?

Mr. HARKNESS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can remember this witness said?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw a rifle?

Mr. HARKNESS. He couldn't tell.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you actually talk to any other person whose name you recorded in your little book there?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir; Arnold Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Arnold Rowland?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. HARKNESS. He said that he saw a man on one of those floors. He didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle walking around up there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else that you could have recorded there?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you remember?

Mr. HARKNESS. Except his address. I have his address as 3026 Hammerly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that happened that day that might in any way be relevant to this investigation?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday?

Mr. HARKNESS. Saturday I was assigned to traffic at Elm and Houston, between Elm and Main.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you did on Saturday or on Sunday that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry?

Mr. HARKNESS. On Saturday had a large crowd down there, and I observed Jack Ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. You saw Jack Ruby near the entrance of the jail on Saturday?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Has your statement already been taken by anyone before on the President's Commission?

Mr. HARKNESS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. But you did see Jack Ruby?

Mr. HARKNESS. I testified in Ruby's trial to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else or anything else that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. HARKNESS. The only thing, on Sunday I was leaving town; going to Whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that Oswald had been shot.

When I arrived in Whitesboro, I called Capt. Fritz of the Dallas Police Department, and told him that I had seen Ruby near the entrance of the county jail the day before, which was a Saturday.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HARKNESS. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. But did you ever talk to Ruby at any time afterwards?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; not afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Ruby at all, or not?

Mr. HARKNESS. I had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, I had seen him before, and I knew who he was, but other than that, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other thing you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir; I don't have anything on that, other than what I heard over the radio.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he saw at the window was a white man or Negro?

Mr. HARKNESS. He just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. That is what he told me.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether or not it was a man?

Mr. HARKNESS. I don't remember, because I knew I couldn't get any information out of him, enough to put out a description on it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HARKNESS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and testifying.

You have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us directly in Washington. If you have any preference, you might let us know.

Mr. HARKNESS. I have no preference. I just hope I have been able to help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give directions, especially when you try to convince.

Mr. BELIN. In any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? You have a right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly to us, whatever you want to do.

Mr. HARKNESS. Waiver is customary? It doesn't make any difference.

Mr. BELIN. Some people do one way and some the other way. Do you want to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct?

Mr. HARKNESS. What has most of them been doing?

Mr. BELIN. Gosh, I have them doing both ways. I couldn't tell you what most have been doing, sir.

Mr. HARKNESS. I will just waive.

TESTIMONY OF J. HERBERT SAWYER

The testimony of J. Herbert Sawyer was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. SAWYER. Inspector of Police.

Mr. BELIN. Of what Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You live here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, how long have you been with the Police Department?

Mr. SAWYER. 23 years.

Mr. BELIN. That would be then you came to the Police Department around 1941 or so?

Mr. SAWYER. 1941, is right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them ever since 1941?

Mr. SAWYER. Except for a brief hitch in the Service during the war.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. I was a yeoman in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to going into the Service, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Policeman.

Mr. BELIN. Before you went into the Service?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Graduated from high school?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. I didn't graduate. I lacked half a year.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the police force then?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. This was immediately prior to coming to the police department.

Before that, I was a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.

Mr. BELIN. When you first got out of high school, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went out to California and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. SAWYER. Came back to Dallas and went to Business College, and then I went to work as a doorman at the Mural Room of the Baker Hotel.

And then from there I went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager.

Mr. BELIN. And then after that?

Mr. SAWYER. Then to the Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with the Police Department ever since except for this time in the Navy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. SAWYER. 47.

Mr. BELIN. You are married?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, were you an Inspector at that time?

Mr. SAWYER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? Just what were your duties?

Mr. SAWYER. I had charge of the crowd detail on Main Street from Akard to Harwood.

Mr. BELIN. After the motorcade passed, what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but I did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your car was parked?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. It was parked on Ervay Street, at the intersection of Ervay and Main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of Main Street on Ervay.

It run parallel to Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I headed west, or tried to. I had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, I headed west on Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you headed west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. Because that was the way the car was pointed at the time I got in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do as you went west on Main Street?

Mr. SAWYER. I just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around Houston and Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what radio broadcast this is?

Who broadcast it?

Mr. SAWYER. I heard Sheriff Decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and I thought he said Texas School Book Depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. That is what I gathered. He may not have said Texas School Book Depository, but the Texas School Book Depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Was this on Channel 1 or Channel 2 if you remember?

Mr. SAWYER. Channel 2, I am sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did Sheriff Decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I was wondering why he come on our radio, but then I think that he was with Chief Curry and probably using that radio.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, a call was made from Chief Curry's car?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, this I don't know either. I don't know what car it was made from, but I think it was Sheriff Decker talking. I could recognize his voice, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Then I went on down to the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you park your car?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. In front of the main entrance there?

Mr. SAWYER. In front of the main entrance.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately went into--well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and I think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the President's motorcade had gone by.

And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. We had talked about the fifth floor.

And we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took an elevator up, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. The route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. We got into the elevator. We run into this man.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door?

Mr. SAWYER. It was to the right.

Mr. BELIN. To the right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. The best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Did you push for the top button in that elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor.

Mr. BELIN. You went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You got off, and were there officers there?

Mr. SAWYER. There was one or two other officers with me.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area?

Mr. SAWYER. Storage area; what appeared to be a storage area.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to one side I could see an office over there with people in it. Some women that apparently were office workers.

Mr. BELIN. Now Inspector, what did you do then?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so I immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out.

Mr. BELIN. What about the rear entrance?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered.

Mr. BELIN. When was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, they had it covered when I got there. There were officers all around the front. The only thing I don't think had been done by the time I got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor?

Mr. SAWYER. After I got down.

Mr. BELIN. So your procedure, if I understand it, was this. You were driving on Main Street when you heard Sheriff Decker on the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, I believe you said that before you got to the building, or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the Texas School Book Depository over the radio?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. At least some time before you left your car, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I have with me the transcript of the radio log here of November 22, and I notice that, according to the log, at 12:30, and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by Chief Curry, and then something by Sheriff Decker concerning, well, we'd better call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now, Page 2 and 3 are reversed insofar as the order is concerned.

You see at 12:28 p.m., on this exhibit Curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at 12:30 p.m., it says, "Station Break," is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then the next thing that goes on, it is Number 1, which is Chief Curry's number, am I correct in that?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then according to the transcript, the statement is made--you might just read it here in front of you: "Go to the hospital, officers, Parkland Hospital, have them stand by. Get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. Have Parkland stand by."

You see these words here, Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then on a continuation, "Dallas-1," which is marked in by someone as Sheriff Decker says: "I'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. Put every one of my men there."

Then there is a call back to Curry from 531, which is your home station, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

I really didn't quite understand all of it.

Mr. BELIN. Then Curry is quoted as saying: "Notify Station 5 to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there."

Mr. SAWYER. That is Decker speaking there.

Mr. BELIN. That is Decker?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You believe that is what Decker said?

Mr. SAWYER. That is what he said, yes, that's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. His number is Dallas-1, and they are talking to 1. They have that confused.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Curry is 1 also?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. But I think they were riding in the same car?

Mr. SAWYER. That might be correct, but this is actually Decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say.

Mr. BELIN. Well, then, the comment is made "Notify Station 5----"

Mr. SAWYER. That is the Sheriff's Office.

Mr. BELIN. "To move all men available out of my Department back into the railroad yard----"

And that you feel is Decker talking because of the reference to Station 5?

Mr. SAWYER. Also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, at 12:31, is a notation there that quotes, "It looks like the President has been hit."

Then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots might have come from until we see at 12:34, there is a call from officer, it says No. 136, that states, "A passer-by states the shots came from Texas School Book Depository Building.

This is the first reference in the log about the Texas School Book Depository, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the Texas School Book Depository building?

Mr. SAWYER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by 12:34 p.m?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then when you got to the Texas School Book Depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers?

Mr. SAWYER. Officers.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you?

Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add?

Mr. SAWYER. Also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. And this could be part of what I was thinking about, or what I had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down?

Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there.

Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there.

How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to?

Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down?

Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down.

Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. Now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of?

Mr. SAWYER. When I arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. There were officers all around the building.

To the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. There was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as I know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out.

Mr. BELIN. So yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am I correct in that?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there?

Even before you instructed them?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and I know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too.

Mr. BELIN. What happened at the front door now. There were people standing out on the area of the steps, were there not?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There were some people around, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped?

Mr. SAWYER. For sure, no; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I set up a command post in front. The various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and I saw that this was quite an involved situation. It was so many of these people that had information, that I knew I didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, I think he was a supervisor, I had his name at one time, I can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of Sheriff Decker's office, I think he said, for interrogating these people.

Mr. BELIN. That is located down the street a little bit there?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, it is catty-corner across the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. SAWYER. It is southeast across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them.

They were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away.

And then as our detectives began to show up, I sent them over to the Sheriff's Office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits.

Mr. BELIN. How many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, during the entire period of time that I was there, I would venture to say between 25 to 50 different people had come up with information of one kind or another.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this radio log, Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, do you notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? What number did you use?

Mr. SAWYER. I used No. 9. That is my regular call No. 9.

Mr. BELIN. I notice here a No. 9, the first time that appears to come in here is at 12:40 p.m.; is that right?

Mr. SAWYER. That is the first one after 12:40, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The first one after 12:30?

Mr. SAWYER. The first one after 12:30, yes, that is true.

Mr. BELIN. Then at 12:40, there is a bunch of calls at 12:40, with the next call number at 12:43, so you assume sometime 12:40 and 12:43 you, as No. 9, called in, is that correct?

Mr. SAWYER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Would you read what it says that you said there?

Mr. SAWYER. "We need more manpower down here at the Texas Book Depository; there should be a bunch on Main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here."

Mr. BELIN. Was that said before or after you came down from the elevator?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SAWYER. That was after.

Mr. BELIN. Now the next time that No. 9 appears is at what time?

Mr. SAWYER. Immediately after 12:43 and before 12:45.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?

Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"

Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."

Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?"

Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that."

Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made sometime before 12:45 p.m., and after the 12:43 p.m., call, "Attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time."

Does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast?

Mr. SAWYER. I rebroadcast that description. That is what that means.

Mr. BELIN. I then notice on this radio log--I don't see anything more under 9, at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as 1:30 p.m., I don't see anything else, do you, sir?

Mr. SAWYER. No. There is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. I put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository?

Mr. SAWYER. He is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. He was supposed to have been a witness to Oswald being there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Charles Givens have been that boy?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, I think that is the name, and I put out a description on him.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that?

Mr. SAWYER. Somebody told me that. Somebody came to me with the information. And again, that particular party, whoever it was, I don't know. I remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that I sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the Texas Book Depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building.

He wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. When you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what time in the afternoon this was?

Mr. SAWYER. Somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it.

Mr. BELIN. This doesn't go past 1:53 p.m.

Mr. SAWYER. What about your other transcript?

Mr. BELIN. I have a transcript of another one here, at least I did have.

Mr. SAWYER. I think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down.

We sent him directly down to Captain Fritz's office.

Mr. BELIN. Well, just a minute now. I see here on No. 1, you have two channels there.

Mr. SAWYER. This is Channel 1, yes.

Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B.

I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

"From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place."

Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building."

That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.?

Mr. SAWYER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say?

Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time."

Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A.

Mr. SAWYER. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description?

Mr. SAWYER. It was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of this. I don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after 1:53.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this man?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that's correct.

Mr. BELIN. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description from?

Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?

Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A, that shows you at 12:43.

Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know this person's name?

Mr. SAWYER. I do not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?

Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was--I don't remember what he was wearing. I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about him.

Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?

Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't remember that much about him. I was real hazy about that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. I didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the description and sent him on over to the Sheriff's Office.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description?

Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the Sheriff's Office to give fuller or more complete detail.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. SAWYER. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes, through a number of people.

Mr. BELIN. First I am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes. There were a few who claimed that they had seen this.

Mr. BELIN. Where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle----

Mr. SAWYER. The ones that I talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository, which at that time I thought was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what portion, what side of the building it was?

Was it the northeast corner or west side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. It was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?

Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.

Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?

Mr. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?

Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, did any----

Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what I would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight?

In other words, what they heard rather than what they saw?

Mr. SAWYER. Correct. That is correct. Some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? Claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from?

Did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places?

Mr. SAWYER. No. Very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area.

Mr. BELIN. Well, where did other people say they heard shots come from?

Mr. SAWYER. Most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the Texas Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the Texas School Book Depository, all say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Most of them say they saw a rifle there?

Mr. SAWYER. No, just a few, very few.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west--east, I am sorry--east of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?

Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.

When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.

So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?

Mr. SAWYER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. SAWYER. Later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. He gave a statement, is that it?

Mr. SAWYER. This I don't know. I presume he did, but I didn't stop to talk to him or take any information.

I just sent him on down there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of at this time?

Mr. SAWYER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there?

Mr. SAWYER. I spent most of the afternoon up until 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. SAWYER. I went back down to the City Hall and checked around there to see if anything further I could do, and then I went home.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d? Anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Mr. SAWYER. No. I happened to be off on Saturday, and I didn't go back down. The boss didn't call me, so I stayed home.

Mr. BELIN. What about Sunday?

Mr. SAWYER. Same thing. In fact, I didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.

Mr. BELIN. Inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here?

Mr. SAWYER. I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

You have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly.

It doesn't make a bit of difference to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Whichever you prefer. It doesn't make any difference to me.

I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. Why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us.

Mr. SAWYER. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF GERALD DALTON HENSLEE

The testimony of Gerald Dalton Henslee was taken at 4 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please, to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HENSLEE. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name.

Mr. HENSLEE. Gerald Dalton Henslee.

Mr. BELIN. Your occupation?

Mr. HENSLEE. A police officer.

Mr. BELIN. For what police department?

Mr. HENSLEE. City of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. HENSLEE. 16 years.

Mr. BELIN. You are a sergeant now?

Mr. HENSLEE. Sergeant.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do before you became a police officer?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was a student in SMU.

Mr. BELIN. At SMU?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was a dance instructor at the Arthur Murray Dance Studio.

Mr. BELIN. And prior to that?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was in the United States Army.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge, sir?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. HENSLEE. 40.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, what were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mr. HENSLEE. I was supervising the radio dispatcher's office at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. Could you just describe your duties there as to what they included?

Mr. HENSLEE. Well, in this instance, I was not only supervising the channel 1 radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police dispatcher for channel 2, covering the special event of the arrival of the President of the United States, President Kennedy.

Mr. BELIN. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. HENSLEE. My assigned hours?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. HENSLEE. 6:30 until 2 p.m. 6:30 a.m. until 2:30 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on after that?

Mr. HENSLEE. I stayed until about 5:30, as I recall, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned channel 2. How many channels do you have?

Mr. HENSLEE. Two channels.

Mr. BELIN. Was channel 2 being used for the motorcade that day?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes. This is a transcript of the radio log of that date.

Mr. BELIN. For what channel?

Mr. HENSLEE. Channel 2.

Mr. BELIN. Covering from?

Mr. HENSLEE. From 10:25 a.m., until 1:53 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the covering page it says that: "The following was recorded on channel 2, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. This report includes information prior to the arrival of the President's plane, progress of the motorcade, the shooting, and the escort to Parkland Hospital. Also included are events concerning the shooting of Officer Tippit."

Mr. HENSLEE. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Have you attempted to cover all calls that occurred that day or just the calls pertaining to the subject matter that is included in the covering paragraph.

Mr. HENSLEE. Pertaining to the subject matter, to the covering paragraph only.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, and ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B?

Mr. HENSLEE. That is a transmission pertaining to the shooting of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit on channel 1.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I notice times on Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B. Does this mean a time according to your police clock there when an event happened?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I see until 12:40 p.m., a number of conversations. Then the next one is 12:43 p.m. Does that mean that all the conversations took place between 12:40 and 12:43 p.m.?

Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. They took place in the order in which they are listed here?

Mr. HENSLEE. Right. There were so many, we couldn't get the time in after each transmission.

Mr. BELIN. Who prepared Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, if you know?

Mr. HENSLEE. Well, I am pretty sure these are the ones I prepared. They are copies of them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know from what source they were prepared?

Mr. HENSLEE. They were prepared from the tapes on the channel 1. We have a tape on channel 1, and we have a record on channel 2. Two separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and tapes.

Mr. BELIN. Under your supervision?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice numbers here. For instance, I see on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, the No. 531 often appears. Would that be your call number?

Mr. HENSLEE. This designates the radio dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. Then I see the number here, No. 1 sometimes appears. Who is that?

Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Chief J. E. Curry.

Mr. BELIN. I see a No. 9. Who is No. 9?

Mr. HENSLEE. That is the number assigned to Inspector J. H. Sawyer.

Mr. BELIN. Different numbers are assigned to different people?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If an officer is patrolling a district, does he have the number assigned to a district if he is not a high officer in the Department?

Mr. HENSLEE. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, I see the No. 78 here. Does that appear to be the number of J. D. Tippit?

Mr. HENSLEE. On that particular day it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of, Sergeant, that might be relevant to the investigation into the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. HENSLEE. No. The only thing I have is what I observed over the police radio that day. That is all the knowledge I have at all.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir; we thank you very much for your cooperation.

One other thing, you have the right to read this deposition and sign it before it goes into Washington, or else you can waive the reading and have it go directly to Washington.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. HENSLEE. Yes, I would like to read it before I sign it.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right. It makes no difference to us. And again, we thank you.

Mr. HENSLEE. What else can I do for you?

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY

The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn?

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Sit down and state your name and your address.

Mr. SHELLEY. William Hoyt (spelling) Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas 11.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and----

Mr. SHELLEY. I was born at Gunter, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your education?

Mr. SHELLEY. High school.

Mr. BALL. What have you been doing since then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and started working at the Texas School Book Depository October 29, 1945.

Mr. BALL. (After leaving room for last answer, Mr. Ball returns.) Did you tell her all about yourself?

Mr. SHELLEY. You wanted to know when I was born.

Mr. BALL. You told us that, and you had your high school education?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work have you done since then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I've told her.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked at Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. SHELLEY. She already has it, October 29, 1945.

Mr. BALL. October 29, 1945--steady since that date?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. In November 1963, what was your job down there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years.

Mr. BALL. Who is your immediate superior?

Mr. SHELLEY. Roy S. Truly.

Mr. BALL. What is his job?

Mr. SHELLEY. He is superintendent of the place.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. SHELLEY. He worked for me.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did he do for you?

Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. SHELLEY. He did good work.

Mr. BALL. What was it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Order filling.

Mr. BALL. As an order filler did he have access to any more than one floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. How many floors?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just about any of them outside the offices.

Mr. BALL. Were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he worked more frequently than other floors?

Mr. SHELLEY. The first floor is where all the order filling is done; the 5th, 6th, 7th floor are used for storage and when they need stock on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it.

Mr. BALL. So he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on 5, 6, and 7, is that what you mean?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not too much; he wasn't too talkative. If I had something I wanted him to do, I would tell him and he usually did it.

Mr. BALL. His work was satisfactory?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him from time to time during that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to eat lunch about 10 to 12.

Mr. BALL. Where had you been working?

Mr. SHELLEY. I had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go down and eat lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was around 10 'til.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, I started eating.

Mr. BALL. Where did you start eating it?

Mr. SHELLEY. In my office next to Mr. Truly's and I ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front.

Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the front?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.

Mr. BALL. And who was out there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.

Mr. BALL. You were standing where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside the glass doors there.

Mr. BALL. That would be on the top landing of the entrance?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade pass?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.

Mr. BALL. And then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL. What did it sound like to you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.

Mr. BALL. What happened; what did you do then?

Mr. SHELLEY. I didn't do anything for a minute.

Mr. BALL. What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound?

Mr. SHELLEY. Sounded like it came from the west.

Mr. BALL. It sounded like it came from the west?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Mr. BALL. Across the street, you mean directly south?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. SHELLEY. That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. It dead ends?

Mr. SHELLEY. There's concrete between the two streets.

Mr. BALL. Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, where they split.

Mr. BALL. You went out there and then what did you do?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down that way; what course did you take?

Mr. SHELLEY. We walked down the middle of the little street.

Mr. BALL. The dead-end street?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place?

Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to see Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY. We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.

Mr. BALL. And Truly?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

Mr. BALL. Were they moving at the time, walking or running?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, they were moving, yes.

Mr. BALL. Were they running?

Mr. SHELLEY. That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.

Mr. BALL. What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL. At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL. When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY. I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY. He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL. Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY. That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY. I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL. You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL. Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL. Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when they found anything up there?

Mr. SHELLEY. I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, I went up later on that day; I believe after we had gotten back from City Hall with someone, I don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them.

Mr. BALL. They did what?

Mr. SHELLEY. They got the bones.

Mr. BALL. Where were they?

Mr. SHELLEY. They were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. And were they in a sack?

Mr. SHELLEY. Laying on a sack.

Mr. BALL. Laying on a sack.

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that's all.

Mr. BALL. That's the only ones?

Mr. SHELLEY. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. At one time I think I said I did but Charles Givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says.

Mr. BALL. Now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. I thought I had; those colored boys are always eating chicken.

Mr. BALL. Do you think you did or do you know?

Mr. SHELLEY. I asked Charles Givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you went down for lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about 9:30.

Mr. BALL. Where was it?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was two-thirds across the building toward the west because I didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working.

Mr. BALL. After you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the President was shot?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then you went out across Elm?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, to the divider.

Mr. BALL. Between the two Elm Streets?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you run out to the point or walk out?

Mr. SHELLEY. I believe we trotted out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay very long?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, it wasn't very long.

Mr. BALL. How long?

Mr. SHELLEY. Maybe a minute or two.

Mr. BALL. And that's the place you saw Truly and Baker, you say, going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Then you went down the Elm Street that dead ends to the first railroad track?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That's about what distance?

Mr. SHELLEY. Approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. Did you trot, run or walk?

Mr. SHELLEY. We were walking but it was a pretty fast walk.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there any length of time?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not very long.

Mr. BALL. How long would you say?

Mr. SHELLEY. I wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back to the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you trot or run back to the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. We just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less.

Mr. BALL. Then you went into the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Vickie Adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. I sure don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't.

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald use a clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On which he kept his orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is it a clipboard you gave him to use or one----

Mr. SHELLEY. It's one he picked up.

Mr. BALL. Picked up where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just laying around.

Mr. BALL. There are clipboards that the order fillers use there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a clip and maybe a piece of cardboard.

Mr. BALL. Did he use the same one at all times?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; as far as I know.

Mr. BALL. Now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who found it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BALL. Where did he find it?

Mr. SHELLEY. He found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the stairway.

Mr. BALL. Did he show you the place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Point it out to you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; so I invited Mr. Pinkston----

Mr. BALL. Mr. who?

Mr. SHELLEY. Pinkston of the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did he come out and get the clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he got it.

Mr. BALL. But Frankie Kaiser pointed it out to you, did he?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you called the FBI and pointed it out to him?

Mr. SHELLEY. He was down there at the time and I told him about it and he and Frankie and I went up and got it.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what date?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; that, I sure couldn't tell you. It was the following week though, I am pretty sure.

Mr. BALL. You mean after the 22d, the following, you say, the 22d of November?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine it to see whether or not there was on the clipboard any orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Unfilled orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; there were some invoices on it.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom they had been assigned to fill?

Mr. SHELLEY. They were Scott, Foresman invoices.

Mr. BALL. Scott, Foresman invoices?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; and he filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders.

Mr. BALL. Who is "he"?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Oswald filled mostly Scott, Foresman orders?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is Foresman [spelling]?

Mr. SHELLEY. Foresman [spelling].

Mr. BALL. Was there any other order filler who filled Scott, Foresman invoices?

Mr. SHELLEY. Any of the other boys would if they ran out of other publishers' orders. When I get those orders, I sort them according to publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to them.

Mr. BALL. So, in the morning would you have assigned all Scott, Foresman to Oswald on that Friday morning?

Mr. SHELLEY. He already had the orders and was working when I got there.

Mr. BALL. He had?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who would determine what orders they would get?

Mr. SHELLEY. When we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and get orders for Scott, Foresman. He had been trained for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. Would orders be assigned the day before?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. The boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the work out----

Mr. BALL. I want to know how a man working on Scott, Foresman--suppose Oswald came to work on Friday morning, tell me what routine he would follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill.

Mr. SHELLEY. He would go over to the order desk and get them out of a box marked Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. They would have Scott, Foresman on it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is he the only one that in the morning when he came to work would get the orders out of the box marked Scott, Foresman?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other boxes any other order filler would take them.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not he was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether anybody else was filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. I am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; there's more of them.

Mr. BALL. Then you believe others besides Oswald were filling Scott, Foresman orders that day?

Mr. SHELLEY. Probably were.

Mr. BALL. Is there any way you can determine what order filler had that clipboard?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used.

Mr. BALL. It did look like the one he had used?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it was found?

Mr. SHELLEY. Two or three, best I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep a list of them?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody make a list of them?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not unless Mr. Pinkston did.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Pinkston of the FBI?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because they were several days old.

Mr. BALL. You mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never been filled?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. So you went ahead and filled them?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name--Pinkston?

Mr. SHELLEY. I don't know how to spell it. Mr. Pinkston is all I know.

Mr. BALL. Pinkston, okay. I think that's all, Mr. Shelley. Thanks very much. This will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do?

Mr. SHELLEY. I suppose it doesn't make any difference. What are the others doing?

Mr. BALL. Some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you rather do?

Mr. SHELLEY. I would kind of like to see it for curiosity.

Mr. BALL. Come down and sign it, all right. Where was the clipboard found?

Mr. SHELLEY. On the sixth floor in the far corner.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Mr. SHELLEY. By the stairway.

Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest?

Mr. SHELLEY. Northwest, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Shelley.

TESTIMONY OF NAT A. PINKSTON

The testimony of Nat A. Pinkston was taken at 12:10 p.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PINKSTON. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. PINKSTON. Nat A. Pinkston.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. PINKSTON. I'm a Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. BALL. Have you had your deposition taken before this proceeding?

Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your address is what?

Mr. PINKSTON. My residence address is 2106 Van Cleave Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. And how long have you been a Special Agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. PINKSTON. Be 24 years next month.

Mr. BALL. And you are assigned to what office?

Mr. PINKSTON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Now, you did not receive a letter from the Commission asking you to testify, did you?

Mr. PINKSTON. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At my request, wasn't it?

Mr. PINKSTON. Well, I----

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin and he advised you that your deposition would be taken at that time?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The deposition taken in the course of an investigation by the Commission to investigate the facts concerning the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and I am a staff officer. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the oath to you and to ask you certain questions concerning some matters which you do have knowledge of.

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You are willing to testify, are you not?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the course of your investigation, were you called to the Texas School Book Depository sometimes around the 2d of December 1963?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And who asked you to come down there?

Mr. PINKSTON. I was instructed by one of my supervisors to conduct an investigation there on that date.

Mr. BALL. On that date?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a fellow by the name of Frankie Kaiser?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Roy Truly?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you when you came down there?

Mr. PINKSTON. To the best of my recollection I was there waiting to see Mr. Truly. He was somewhere else in the building, and I was waiting for him on the occasion in question. Frankie Kaiser came down the stairs and said that he had found something on the sixth floor. I didn't--I then accompanied him back to the sixth floor where he pointed out on the floor near the entrance to the stair well, a clipboard with some orders on it, and--pardon me a second, do you want me to testify to what Kaiser told me, which is hearsay----

Mr. BALL. That is all right, but Kaiser told you that when you were downstairs, that something--didn't he? When he was--did Kaiser come downstairs?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes; Kaiser came downstairs and took me back upstairs with him and pointed out the clipboard which he had left on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he had left it there?

Mr. PINKSTON. He had seen it there and did not bother it.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. PINKSTON. He did not put it there.

Mr. BALL. I see. Kaiser told you and you went upstairs and Kaiser pointed out the clipboard?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. First, the location of the clipboard.

Mr. PINKSTON. The clipboard was generally in the northwest corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It was on the floor behind the books, against the wall of the stair well.

Mr. BALL. There were some book cartons in front of it, were there?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did Frankie Kaiser say something? That is hearsay, but I would like to hear what it was.

Mr. PINKSTON. He told me this clipboard was the one that he had made, and had given to Oswald when Oswald went to work at the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine the clipboard?

Mr. PINKSTON. I did, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it have anybody's name on it?

Mr. PINKSTON. It had quite a bit of scribbling on it, and I believe--well, I am not in a position to say right now exactly what it had on it other than some orders.

Mr. BALL. It did have some orders on it?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you examine the orders?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the date of the orders and the general description of the orders?

Mr. PINKSTON. Three orders on this clipboard. Each order was dated November 22d. The first was an order from Mrs. Hazel Carroll of the Reading Clinic, SMU, for one Parliamentary Procedure at $1.40. Was published by Scott, Foresman & Co.

And this invoice bore No. 2454. The second one was an order from Dallas Independent School District from Mr. M. J. Morton, purchasing agent, at the School Administration Building, 3700 Ross Avenue, Dallas, Tex., for 10 ERS, Basic Reading Skills, for high schools, revised, at $1.12, or total of $11.20. Published by Scott, Foresman & Co.

The Invoice was No. 6057.

The third order was an order to be sent to Mr. M. K. Baker, Junior High School, Reynosa, New Mex., for one TE Basic Reading Skills. J. H. S. use. No charge. Sent at the request of Miss Mary Williams. Publisher; Scott, Foresman & Co., invoice 8291.

Each of these orders, as I say, were dated November 22, 1963.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you--with the orders after you made these notations?

Mr. PINKSTON. I turned them over to Mr. Truly. He desired to fill the orders.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the clipboard?

Mr. PINKSTON. I returned the clipboard to my office and made an exhibit of it, as I recall.

Mr. BALL. Is it still an exhibit? It is an FBI exhibit?

Mr. PINKSTON. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. In the possession of the FBI?

Mr. PINKSTON. I haven't seen it since then.

Mr. BALL. Will you try to determine if you still have that as an exhibit in your office, or in Washington?

Mr. PINKSTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, this will be written up and will be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive your signature.

Mr. PINKSTON. I would like to----

Mr. BALL. See it and read it?

Mr. PINKSTON. See it and read it and sign it.

Mr. BALL. You will be notified to come to this office and read it and sign it.

(After the conclusion of the deposition and at 1 o'clock, p.m., on the same day as the taking of the deposition, Mr. Nat A. Pinkston appeared before me, Iris Leonard, stating that he wished the following statement to be incorporated with his deposition: "After reviewing my records, I am now able to state definitely that after examining the clipboard and the orders thereon, I left them at the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. Truly. The clipboard was picked up by another FBI agent at a later time and was made an exhibit.")

TESTIMONY OF BILLY NOLAN LOVELADY

The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn?

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LOVELADY. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. LOVELADY. Billy Nolan Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You know the purpose of the investigation?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was and your experience, in general?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February 19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down there and nursery and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. LOVELADY. December 16, 1961, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place.

Mr. BALL. Which one of the buildings do you work in?

Mr. LOVELADY. At the one at 411 Elm.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, where were you working?

Mr. LOVELADY. At that morning, you mean?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. LOVELADY. I was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting down that flooring.

Mr. BALL. Who were you working with?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along.

Mr. BALL. That's Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL. What is his position with Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. LOVELADY. He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly.

Mr. BALL. Is he a foreman?

Mr. LOVELADY. I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most things down there, paperwork and stuff like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Lee Oswald?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well just to work with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing fine.

Mr. BALL. Where did Oswald work in the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, he had access to all the building just like I do.

Mr. BALL. All floors?

Mr. LOVELADY. All floors.

Mr. BALL. Any floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up there.

Mr. BALL. Did he work on one floor more than any other?

Mr. LOVELADY. No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?

Mr. LOVELADY. He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand?

Mr. LOVELADY. No, sir; just lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch?

Mr. LOVELADY. Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had.

Mr. BALL. What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day?

Mr. LOVELADY. Same time, 12.

Mr. BALL. A little before 12?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.

Mr. BALL. Did you come down the elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go down with?

Mr. LOVELADY. Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the side I was; I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Were you having a race with the other boys?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way down?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holler to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him.

Mr. BALL. You were on the west elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator?

Mr. LOVELADY. East, on back, the elevator back.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him?

Mr. LOVELADY. No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because--where those slats are in back of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day?

Mr. LOVELADY. No.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

Mr. BALL. Upstairs on what floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL. You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me----

Mr. BALL. What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY. Stanton.

Mr. BALL. What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY. Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL. And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY. Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. LOVELADY. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Who was this girl?

Mr. LOVELADY. Gloria Calvary.

Mr. BALL. Gloria Calvary?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where does she work?

Mr. LOVELADY. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Where was the direction of the sound?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.

Mr. BALL. That's where it sounded to you?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.

Mr. BALL. From the underpass area?

Mr. LOVELADY. Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

Mr. BALL. I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. LOVELADY. Where I thought the shots are?

Mr. BALL. No; you in the picture.

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top of the step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY. It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL. The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.

Mr. LOVELADY. Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. Shelley and you went down how far?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes----

Mr. BALL. You went down the dead end on Elm?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And down to the first tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything there?

Mr. LOVELADY. No sir; well, just people running.

Mr. BALL. That's all?

Mr. LOVELADY. And hollerin.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to go down there?

Mr. LOVELADY. I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess----

Mr. BALL. They were running from that way or toward that way?

Mr. LOVELADY. Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.

Mr. BALL. By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15, maybe 25, steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Mr. BALL. How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY. Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL. Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. And enter from the rear?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL. You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL. Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, it's--I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL. Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY. Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL. Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you run or walk?

Mr. LOVELADY. Medium trotting or fast walk.

Mr. BALL. A fast walk?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Somebody hollered and I looked.

Mr. BALL. You turned around and looked?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary small door?

Mr. LOVELADY. You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.

Mr. BALL. That is where you went in, that little door?

Mr. LOVELADY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That would be the north end of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. That would be the west end, wouldn't it?

Mr. BALL. Is it the one right off Houston Street?

Mr. LOVELADY. No; you are thinking about another dock.

Mr. BALL. I am?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes; we have two.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.

Mr. BALL. Now, the south side----

Mr. LOVELADY. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.

Mr. BALL. That's south.

Mr. LOVELADY. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.

Mr. BALL. You came into the building from the west side?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY. Through that, those raised-up doors.

Mr. BALL. Through the raised-up doors?

Mr. LOVELADY. Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.

Mr. BALL. You came in through the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

Mr. BALL. Who is Vickie?

Mr. LOVELADY. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL. What is her full name?

Mr. LOVELADY. I wouldn't know.

Mr. BALL. Vickie Adams?

Mr. LOVELADY. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Mr. LOVELADY. I couldn't swear.

Mr. BALL. Where was the girl?

Mr. LOVELADY. I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY. Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.

Mr. BALL. And you stayed on the first door then?

Mr. LOVELADY. I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you take them up there?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final----

Mr. LOVELADY. I want this to be the final one.

Mr. BALL. All right; you waive signature?

Mr. LOVELADY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER

The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KAISER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you give me your name, please?

Mr. KAISER. Frankie Kaiser.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. KAISER. 5230 West Ledbetter in Duncanville.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. KAISER. Warehouse workman at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. KAISER. Oh, just about 2 years.

Mr. BALL. What time do you go to work down there?

Mr. KAISER. Eight o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BALL. What date did you go to work for them?

Mr. KAISER. It was August 24, 1962.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. KAISER. Texas--Texarkana, Ark.

Mr. BALL. Were you born there?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was born in Omaha, Nebr.

Mr. BALL. And then you went to school in Texarkana, did you?

Mr. KAISER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?

Mr. KAISER. I never finished.

Mr. BALL. How far did you go?

Mr. KAISER. I went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service and went in for 6 months in the National Guards and come out and then came to Dallas and started to work and I worked for Morrises.

Mr. BALL. You worked for whom?

Mr. KAISER. Morris Warehouse.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. KAISER. I worked there for about 3 years and then I started to work over there.

Mr. BALL. You started to work over at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. Yes--then I got married.

Mr. BALL. You did--what kind of work do you do at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. Drive a truck--fill orders--just about anything that needs to be done.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Lee Oswald that worked there?

Mr. KAISER. Not personally--I would know him when I would see him.

Mr. BALL. Did you work in the same building with him?

Mr. KAISER. Same building.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's parade went by?

Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. KAISER. At the Baylor Dental College.

Mr. BALL. Sir, you weren't anywhere near the School Book Depository?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I was off Thursday and Friday with abscessed tooth. I was sitting in the chair and when I got off, we was out in the lobby watching it on TV down at the dental college there.

Mr. BALL. When did you go back to work?

Mr. KAISER. It was the following Monday.

Mr. BALL. That would be the 25th, wouldn't it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; I believe so--the 25th.

Mr. BALL. Now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you?

Mr. KAISER. Yes; it was about a week later. I went upstairs, you see, the corner I found it in--we keep a certain teacher's edition of Catholic handbooks.

Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what?

Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic "Think and Do" books.

Mr. BALL. I didn't quite hear that--Catholic what?

Mr. KAISER. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic books--separated.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; and I went up there to get a teacher's edition.

Mr. BALL. On what floor?

Mr. KAISER. On the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Now, what part of the sixth floor is this Catholic edition located?

Mr. KAISER. It was in that corner.

Mr. BALL. And in what corner is that?

Mr. KAISER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? Or the stairway?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was right in front of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Where was it with reference to the stairway?

Mr. KAISER. It was right next to the stairway--right in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, what day did you find it, do you remember?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you. It was about a week or a week and a half, somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you gave to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 2d of December 1963, says you talked to an agent named Pinkston; do you remember that?

Mr. KAISER. Well, I got my boss and the FBI to go upstairs and I showed it to them.

Mr. BALL. When you saw the clipboard----

Mr. KAISER. I went downstairs and got my boss.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. KAISER. William H. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. And then what happened?

Mr. KAISER. This FBI was standing there with me--he was standing there then and I told him I had a clipboard laying up there with the orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it would have been around December 2?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was within a week after you went back to work, was it?

Mr. KAISER. To my best knowledge--yes, sir--somewhere in there.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to find the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I was over there looking for the Catholic edition--teacher's edition.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. It was just laying there in the plain open--and just the plain open boxes--you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and I just noticed it laying over there.

Mr. BALL. Laying on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, it was laying on the floor.

Mr. BALL. It was on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. It was on the floor.

Mr. BALL. How close was it to the wall?

Mr. KAISER. It was about--oh--I would say, just guessing, about 5 or 6 inches, something like that.

Mr. BALL. From the wall and on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Laying on the floor.

Mr. BALL. And were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. No, not between the wall and the clipboard--there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. No, you see, here's--let me see just a second--here's the stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this way going up and here's the--and it was laying right in here by the cards--there are about four or five cards, I guess, running in front of it--just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up.

Mr. BALL. You mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, right there in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't touch it.

Mr. BALL. Did you later touch it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on.

Mr. BALL. Did you see it had some orders on it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the orders dated?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they dated?

Mr. KAISER. I couldn't tell you, sir.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this statement which you gave to Mr. Pinkston that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in any way?

Mr. KAISER. (Read statement referred to.)

Mr. BALL. Did you read that?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the clipboard?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't know the date on the orders--I knew that there was some orders on there--I seen the orders on the clipboard.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine them to determine the date on them?

Mr. KAISER. Did I examine those orders? No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't examine the orders?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; I just went down and got my boss and then they took it down.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of the orders?

Mr. KAISER. I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; now, my boss may have.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Did you fill the orders, then, yourself?

Mr. KAISER. No, sir; not them, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You turned these over to your boss?

Mr. KAISER. You see, I went down and got them and they went down and got them and they handled them.

Mr. BALL. That's all, Mr. Kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up.

This will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we can send it on without a signature.

Now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your deposition as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C.

(Marked by reporter as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C, for identification.)

Mr. KAISER. Anything else I can do, let me know.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature to it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, I'll waive it.

Mr. BALL. Fine. That's okay.

Mr. KAISER. All right.

TESTIMONY OF FRANKIE KAISER RESUMED

The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Frankie, we have already taken your deposition and I just wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath.

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, Frankie, that clipboard you found describe it--what was it?

Mr. KAISER. It was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of pasteboard.

Mr. BALL. Who made it?

Mr. KAISER. I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. KAISER. Well, right after I started there--it had been a long time ago.

Mr. BALL. And how was it you weren't using it on this day?

Mr. KAISER. You see, when he first started there----

Mr. BALL. Who is "he"?

Mr. KAISER. Lee--when he first started to work there he got my clipboard and started using it.

Mr. BALL. Did you give it to him to use?

Mr. KAISER. No, he just picked it up and started using it and I just went and made me another one.

Mr. BALL. You recognized that clipboard when you saw it?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, because my name was all over it.

Mr. BALL. Your name was on it, too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You put your name "Frankie Kaiser" on it?

Mr. KAISER. You see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around here--everybody is always running off with it.

Mr. BALL. That's the reason you put your name on it?

Mr. KAISER. He come up and got it and started using it and I just let him keep it and made me another one.

Mr. BALL. Now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures as No. 36, but which I will mark as Exhibit A to your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibit A, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do you know?

Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found there--it was found on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Where on the floor?

Mr. KAISER. Behind these cartons--between there and the wall.

Mr. BALL. Behind which cartons?

Mr. KAISER. Right in here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Which cartons--it was found behind--are the cartons in the picture--it wasn't found where it is circled there?

Mr. KAISER. It wasn't found where it circled--there--it was found on the floor.

Mr. BALL. Put a big "X" on the carton behind which it was found.

Mr. KAISER. I'll put it on this one--it was found between that and the wall. (Witness placed "X" on the pictures requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. You have marked an "X" on the carton--between that carton and the wall the clipboard was found.

Mr. KAISER. Yes, between these row of cartons right over there.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you later find clothing?

Mr. KAISER. I just found the coat there--I didn't even know it was his until somebody told me it was. I thought they were kidding.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit 163--do you recognize that blue jacket?

Mr. KAISER. That's the one I found.

Mr. BALL. Where did you find it--tell me first.

Mr. KAISER. It was in the window sill.

Mr. BALL. In what room?

Mr. KAISER. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Now, I show you a picture, No. 17, this is marked--does this show the window?

Mr. KAISER. Right down in here.

Mr. BALL. There is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the jacket was found?

Mr. KAISER. Yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window.

Mr. BALL. It wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the picture?

Mr. KAISER. No; it sure wasn't.

Mr. BALL. But was it the same window?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the window sill is shown there too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes; it is.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture which is marked Exhibit 18, does this show the place where the jacket was found?

Mr. KAISER. Right over in here.

Mr. BALL. Where--put an "X" there--it's in the window sill?

Mr. KAISER. Right.

(Marked diagram with an "X".)

Mr. BALL. There is an Exhibit 17, which shows the corner of the domino room and the window and it is marked as Exhibit B and the picture marked No. 18, which shows the window sill, bearing an "X" placed there by the witness, and is marked as Exhibit "C". Will you initial that "C" please?

Mr. KAISER. (Initialed instrument as requested.)

Mr. BALL. That's "FK".

I believe we are through, now, Frankie, thank you very much.

Mr. KAISER. That's all right.

Mr. BALL. You'll waive this signature too?

Mr. KAISER. Yes.

(Instruments marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibits B and C, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS

The testimony of Charles Douglas Givens was taken at 9 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GIVENS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is your name, please?

Mr. GIVENS. Charles Douglas Givens.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Givens?

Mr. GIVENS. I live at 4208 First Avenue.

Mr. BELIN. In Dallas?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GIVENS. 38.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born, Mr. Givens?

Mr. GIVENS. Kemp, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. GIVENS. All my life except I was in the Armed Forces during World War II, in the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. GIVENS. About 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a little. Did you go to high school before you went in the Navy?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GIVENS. Twelfth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get through the 12th?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You got up to the 12th grade?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what?

Mr. GIVENS. SMU.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. GIVENS. SMU.

Mr. BELIN. SMU?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do out there?

Mr. GIVENS. I worked in the kitchen.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in the service.

Mr. BELIN. You went in the service for a couple of years?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with most of your time in the service?

Mr. GIVENS. I was in the Steward Mate Branch.

Mr. BELIN. Were you honorably discharged?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of the service?

Mr. GIVENS. I went back to work.

Mr. BELIN. At SMU?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Mr. GIVENS. I worked at Central Lumber Co.

Mr. BELIN. Doing what there?

Mr. GIVENS. I was a truck helper; helper on the truck.

Mr. BELIN. You were helper on a truck?

Mr. GIVENS. Delivering lumber; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. GIVENS. Oh, about a year and a half, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. One time I got into a little difficulty. Got in a little trouble.

Mr. BELIN. You got in a little trouble?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you were not working for a while?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long was that?

Mr. GIVENS. About 13 months.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I came back and I worked for a construction company, and then after that I got this job down here at the depository.

Mr. BELIN. At the School Book Depository?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Off and on about 6 years.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any period of time that you haven't worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What happened then?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just, you know, sometimes I had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he calls you back.

Mr. BELIN. So it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do down there at the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job.

Mr. BELIN. On what floors do you generally work most of all?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. We work out of the stock downstairs. We go upstairs. We have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you were doing on the 22d of November 1963, also?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?

Mr. GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?

Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.

Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. We were working on the west end.

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you remember what time you got to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I got to work around about a quarter to eight.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?

Mr. GIVENS. I went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you call the domino room?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You carry your lunch with you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You put your lunch there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you wear a jacket to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS. I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hang up your coat in that room, too?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I knew of him.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked with him at all?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I talked to him once in a while. I mean, just like about filling orders or something like that. Sometimes I check and he was filling orders and he make a mistake, and I call him and get the book right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? What you said and what he said?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. He never had too much to say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about his family, or baseball, or anything?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Ever talk to you about any politics?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you talked to him about correcting an order, what did you say and what did he say?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I just tell him he had the wrong book.

Mr. BELIN. What would he say?

Mr. GIVENS. He said, "Okay," and got the record.

Mr. BELIN. What did you call him, Lee or Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Called him Lee.

Mr. BELIN. What did he call you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, he never called me anything. I never heard him call me anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he make mistakes often?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, not too often.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to work on the morning of November 22, did you see him at all there or not?

Mr. GIVENS. 22d? That was on Friday, wasn't it?

Mr. BELIN. Friday; that is the day the President came by.

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, I saw him that day.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him first?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I first saw him on the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was that?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, about 8:30.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me ask you this. You got to work at a quarter to 8?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do between a quarter of 8 and 8:30? Where were you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I went upstairs. We went to work at 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him come into the domino room at all?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that morning, no, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. 8 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. At 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't feel he came in the domino room before 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; not that morning he didn't.

Mr. BELIN. How did you get up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. On the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. The east or the west one? The west one is the one that would be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the Houston Street.

Mr. GIVENS. We went up on the east one.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you took the east one rather than the west one?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I don't know whether you call it a particular reason, but on the west, you have double gates on that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the east elevator up?

Mr. GIVENS. It was that morning, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was that morning around 8 o'clock?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where did you see him at 8:30 o'clock first?

Mr. GIVENS. I came back down to use the rest room.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he?

Mr. GIVENS. He was over there in the bin filling orders.

Mr. BELIN. He was over in the bin filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they had some bins there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to him at all?

Mr. GIVENS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say hello, Lee?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't say anything to him. I just looked at him.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he was wearing?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. He never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw him at 8:30 on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we went back upstairs and started to work.

Mr. BELIN. You went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you see Lee Harvey Oswald next?

Mr. GIVENS. Next?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was about a quarter till 12, we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor.

I came downstairs, and I discovered I left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and I took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it. When I got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way.

Mr. BELIN. Coming from what way?

Mr. GIVENS. Toward the window up front where the shots were fired from.

Mr. BELIN. Just a second, where did you go? Where were you when you saw him on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. I had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. All right, just a second. I am going to get a plan of the sixth floor, if I have one, and try and have you point that out to me.

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but perhaps we can use another plan here to help us.

Here is a diagram of the front of the building. This is the Elm Street side, and you can see the arrow pointing north.

This perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. You notice that there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows, right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. On the Elm Street side, seven pairs of windows?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. Now did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you standing near any of these windows?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. I was over here by the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. You are pointing your finger to a spot which would be somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct?

Mr. GIVENS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. At a spot which is about on the same line as what I call the south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to the back of the east elevator, is that about right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing at that point, and where did you see Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I was along here [indicating].

Mr. BELIN. All right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would be near the east wall of the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You can see a scale here that is from 0 to 20 feet. Well, it would be about 30 to 40 feet north of the south wall of that building, is that right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And around 10 feet or so away from the east wall, is that about right?

Mr. GIVENS. That is about right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I didn't pay any attention about any being stacked, because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and ran it down that side.

Mr. BELIN. You had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth floor where you were working and put it there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the other side of the window?

Mr. GIVENS. He was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. Coming towards the elevators?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see all of his body or not?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand.

Mr. BELIN. He had his clipboard in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the east wall that he was walking along, or what?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; they have aisles.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front of him? Were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, it was already some books stacked there.

Mr. BELIN. Were there books stacked between where you saw him and the window itself?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, he was walking with his clipboard from that southeast corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him walking? What direction did you see him walking in?

Mr. GIVENS. He was coming towards the elevators.

Mr. BELIN. From the Elm Street side of the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be walking in a northerly direction?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; he had his board with his orders on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the orders on the board?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever fill orders in November on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there were any books or book cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling orders?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir; it was possible.

Mr. BELIN. It was possible?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch where he walked to?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay much attention. I was getting ready to get on the elevator, and I say, "Boy, are you going downstairs?"

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you?

Mr. GIVENS. I say, "It's near lunch time."

He said, "No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator."

That meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will come up by itself.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. GIVENS. That is all.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the elevator gate, or not say anything?

Mr. GIVENS. I said, "Okay," and got on the elevator.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take down?

Mr. GIVENS. I taken this one.

Mr. BELIN. The east elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first floor, the west elevator was there?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't, because I looked over there to close the gate and it wasn't there.

Mr. BELIN. It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where it was?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. What time was this?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say it was about 5 minutes to 12, then because it was----

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor?

Mr. GIVENS. When I got down to the first floor Harold Norman, James Jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then I said, "I believe I will walk up to the parking lot."

I had a friend that worked on the parking lot, right on Elm and Record.

Mr. BELIN. Elm and Record Streets?

Mr. GIVENS. Elm and Record Streets; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That would be one block to the east of the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. I stood around over there and went up on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. What corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Up on Main and Record. That is where I watched the President pass right there.

Mr. BELIN. Who else was there with you that you knew?

Mr. GIVENS. James and Edward Shields.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the same person, James Edward?

Mr. GIVENS. Edward Shields and James.

Mr. BELIN. Two other people?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You watched the motorcade together?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you watched the motorcade?

Mr. GIVENS. We turned and started back down to the parking lot.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GIVENS. Then when we heard the shots, by the time we got along in front, right across in front of the Record Building, then we heard the shots.

Mr. BELIN. I want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. When did you eat lunch?

Mr. GIVENS. When did I eat lunch? I ate lunch after. Let's see, no; I ate lunch before I went up there, because I stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there.

Mr. BELIN. You ate your lunch outside?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Standing in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. In front of what building?

Mr. GIVENS. Texas School Book.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever eat any lunch inside the building?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I eat inside the building all the time.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you eat inside the building?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now you said you saw Lee Oswald on the sixth floor around 11:55?

Mr. GIVENS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Oswald anywhere else in the building between 11:55 and the time you left the building?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?

Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. I did--he generally sit in there every morning. He would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was Tuesday, he would read Monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the previous day paper that he read?

Mr. GIVENS. Because he would be sitting there and I would look at him, when he got through and got up to go to work, I would get it and look at it.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be a News or Times Herald?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, they bring Dallas Morning News around in the morning. Fellows bring it to work.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he would read someone else's newspaper that somebody else brought to work?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I never saw him buy one.

Mr. BELIN. Who generally brought the newspaper there?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, Harold Norman would generally bring one and James Jarman would generally bring one.

Mr. BELIN. Now you say you left the sixth floor. Well, you said you left it first to go--did you go down with the other employees on the elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was that now?

Mr. GIVENS. That was about a quarter--I said about a quarter to 12.

Mr. BELIN. Who was on that elevator, do you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. That was Bonnie Ray Williams, and Billy Lovelady, and Danny and myself.

Mr. BELIN. That was Danny Arce?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; a Spanish boy.

Mr. BELIN. Then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your cigarettes so you went back up?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you go down on?

Mr. GIVENS. I came down on the east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. What elevator did you take back up?

Mr. GIVENS. The east elevator.

Mr. BELIN. That day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Had you eaten any chicken or left a pop bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go immediately to your jacket when you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; I went straight and picked up my jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your jacket?

Mr. GIVENS. It was on the west side of the building where we were working.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there are seven pairs of windows. Was it on the south wall of the building? Was it near any one of those windows on the south wall, or was it more to the center of the west side?

Mr. GIVENS. It was more to the corner on the west side. I would say along about the second window going.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the corner, do you mean the corner by the stairs or the southwest corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Southwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. You have shown the southwest corner?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir; along about here [indicating].

Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot which appears to be approximately, oh, 25 feet north, and about 10 feet east of the southwest corner of the sixth floor. Would that be about right?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have pointed to a spot on this floor plan here. When you walked from the east elevator to pick up your jacket, did you see Lee Oswald there?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him anywhere on the sixth floor when you were walking off the elevator to pick up your jacket?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't see him until I got back along here, about in front of the elevator, fixing to get on.

Mr. BELIN. As you were walking to the first spot, which we will describe as somewhat east of the east elevator, were you standing or about to get on the elevator, or what?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; I was fixing to get on.

Mr. BELIN. You were fixing to get on? The elevator was still there where you left it when you came up?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As you were starting to get on the elevator or were turning to get on it, you saw Lee Oswald walking with his clipboard?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, was he walking in a diagonal direction directly toward you and the elevator, or was he walking more in a direction parallel to the east wall here?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say yes, sir; he was going like this.

Mr. BELIN. He was going?

Mr. GIVENS. Coming down the aisle.

Mr. BELIN. Coming down the aisle straight?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in his hand other than a clipboard? Did he have a pencil in his hand?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I wasn't thinking of that. I just happened to glance around as I was on my way back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you glance around when you got off the elevator, do you remember?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir. I just walked off and turned and went right over there and picked my jacket up and started back.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look over in the southeast corner before as you were getting off the elevator?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I kind of glanced that way when I turned to go around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone over there at that time?

Mr. GIVENS. Not at that time, no, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how high the books were by the southeast corner on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I would say about 10 feet from the window. In the aisle we had one pretty good stack of books there, one large stack.

Mr. BELIN. Would they have been as tall as you?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If a man would have been standing up there, would you have been able to see him?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; I wouldn't unless he moved down towards the north end of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else use any of the elevators while you were up on the sixth floor getting your cigarettes?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that morning on November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald getting the newspaper in the domino room shortly before lunch on days other than November 22d?

Mr. GIVENS. Not before lunch. It would be right at lunch time.

Mr. BELIN. Right at lunch time?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. We always ate in there.

Mr. BELIN. Would Oswald always eat in there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two elevators, didn't you?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; we took two down.

Mr. BELIN. Were you racing the elevators?

Mr. GIVENS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Who won?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got down to the first floor before you went back up to the sixth floor again?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, I got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes and I thought about I left them in my jacket pocket.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Yes, sir, I believe I did. I went in and washed my hands, I sure did.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that was it.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first time when you left the sixth floor with these other men to take the two elevators down, did you at any time look over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, no, sir; I didn't pay any attention the first time I was coming down.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you laying the new floor that morning? What portion of the sixth floor would it be?

Mr. GIVENS. West side.

Mr. BELIN. How much of the west side?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were working, I would say, about 10 feet from Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you were pointing to right over this point here?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at the scale, it would be about 10 feet from the--it would be more than 10 feet. Here is the scale.

This would be 20 feet, so it would be more than 20 feet from Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. About 20 feet, maybe so.

Mr. BELIN. Do you think it was closer to 10 feet than 20 feet from the Elm Street side of the west part of the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. I believe it was somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. BELIN. How close was it to the west wall on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we were, oh, I would say about 20 feet out from the wall, we had laid.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ever comment to you as having seen Oswald on the sixth floor that morning?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, is there anything else you can think of that happened that morning up to the time you heard the shot?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Everything was all right until that.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. GIVENS. Three.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you heard them?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of Houston and Elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks.

And we asked--I asked someone--some white fellow there, "What happened?"

And he said, "Somebody shot the President." Like that. So I stood there for a while, and I went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when I went over to try to get back in the officer at the door would't let me in.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell him you worked there?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. He told me he wouldn't let no one in.

Mr. BELIN. This was the front of Elm Street?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. So I goes back over to the parking lot and I wait until I seen Junior.

Mr. BELIN. Is that Jarman?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes. They were on their way home, and they told me that they let them all go home for the evening, and I said, "I'd better go back and get my hat and coat."

So I started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and Officer Dawson saw me and he called me and asked me was my name Charles Givens, and I said, "Yes."

And he said, "We want you to go downtown and make a statement."

And he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and I made a statement to Will Fritz down there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see Lee Oswald at any time after the time you saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. The next time I saw him was on television.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that in any way is relevant to the assassination?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about Lee Oswald, whether I have asked it or not, that might in any way be helpful?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir. Other than he is just a peculiar fellow. He is just a loner. Don't have much to say to anybody. Stayed by himself most of the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice any one person there he was more friendly with than the other?

Mr. GIVENS. Well, this boy he rode with.

Mr. BELIN. Frazier?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir. Every once in a while I would see him talking to him. Bonnie Ray told me--I never saw him, but Bonnie Ray told me he talked to he and Danny sometimes.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. GIVENS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir; that is about it.

Mr. BELIN. Well, Mr. Givens, we surely appreciate your cooperation in coming down here.

Now you and I didn't talk about this at all until we started taking this deposition, did we?

Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You walked into the room and you raised your right hand and we started taking your testimony. Is that correct?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Have I ever met you before?

Mr. GIVENS. I don't believe so. I don't believe I have.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity to come back here and read this and sign it if you want, or else you can just waive signing and have the court reporter send it directly to Washington. Do you want to come back and read and sign it or do you want to just have the court reporter just send it to Washington?

Mr. GIVENS. Would it be necessary to come back?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; it is not. You can waive it if you desire to do it. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. GIVENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, thank you. We will see you.

TESTIMONY OF TROY EUGENE WEST

The testimony of Troy Eugene West was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. West, would you raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WEST. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sit down now, please. Will you please state your name for the record? Your name is Troy Eugene West?

Mr. WEST. Troy Eugene West.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. West?

Mr. WEST. Well, I was born in 1907. That would be 57, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You go to school at all in Texas?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. WEST. Well, I went to the seventh grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well; I had to come out of school and go to work.

Mr. BELIN. You started working then?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you started working? Where did you work?

Mr. WEST. On the farm.

Mr. BELIN. On the farm?

Mr. WEST. On the farm, yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay on the farm?

Mr. WEST. Oh, I stayed on the farm until way up after I got grown. I was way up past--I guess I was about 24.

Mr. BELIN. When you left the the farm, then what did you do when you left the farm?

Mr. WEST. Well, I came to town after I left.

Mr. BELIN. You came to Dallas?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; little town at Mexia, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in town there?

Mr. WEST. Well, I lived there for about 7 years, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. You were in town for 7 years, and generally what did you do when you were in town?

Mr. WEST. Well, I worked the express all the time.

Mr. BELIN. For any particular company?

Mr. WEST. I was trying to think of the man's name.

Mr. BELIN. You can't remember it right now?

Mr. WEST. I just can't remember it right now. Been quite a little while.

Mr. BELIN. Well, do you remember what you did after you got through doing that? After 6 or 7 years, then where did you go?

Mr. WEST. I came to Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do in Dallas, generally?

Mr. WEST. Well, I worked around just different places until I started to work for the company where I am now.

Mr. BELIN. When did you start working for them?

Mr. WEST. Well, I have been with them now about 16 years.

Mr. BELIN. You have been with them 16 or 17 years? What company is that?

Mr. WEST. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do for the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. WEST. Well, I am a mail wrapper.

Mr. BELIN. You are a mail wrapper?

Mr. WEST. I wrap mail all the time.

Mr. BELIN. Were you doing that on November 22d of 1963, too? Were you a mail wrapper at that time back in last November?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to work on November 22, 1963? That was a Friday, the day the President was assassinated.

Mr. WEST. Yes; I went to work that day.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get to work?

Mr. WEST. Well, we always got to work--we were supposed to be there at 8 in the morning.

Mr. BELIN. You got there at 8 that morning?

Mr. WEST. Yes. I always, most of the time I got there a little early.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time you got to work that particular morning?

Mr. WEST. It was about 10 minutes to 8. I always be 5 or 10 minutes early.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go when you got to work?

Mr. WEST. Well, when I first got to work I always made coffee in the morning at the store. That is the first thing I do in the morning.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you make the coffee?

Mr. WEST. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Where did you make coffee?

Mr. WEST. Well, it is down on the first floor in the same department where I wrap mail at.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I have a first floor map here of the School Book Depository. Here is Elm Street and here is the front entrance.

Here is Mr. Truly's office, and here is Mr. Shelley's office.

There is the stairway down to the basement, and there are the elevators and the back stairway. There are the toilets there. About where would you wrap mail there? Here is the domino room and the shower.

You are looking here, that is north Elm Street runs this way and Houston Street runs that way. It is shown on that diagram.

Mr. WEST. Well, my place was in the west side of the other building.

Mr. BELIN. Was it near the stairway.

Mr. WEST. No; it wasn't close to the stairway.

Mr. BELIN. Was it closer to the Elm Street side of the building?

Mr. WEST. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was it close to? The west side is the side near the railroad tracks and the triple underpass. Is that what you think is the west side?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that is what I would call the west side.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, the northwest part is by the stairway, and the southwest part would be toward the corner near Elm Street. Do you mean toward the Elm or more toward the wooden dock in the back?

Mr. WEST. Well, it was about, I would say, middleways between Elm and the dock.

Mr. BELIN. Well, there are a couple of overhead doors on that west side, aren't there?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You see where it is marked on the first floor diagram, overhead door and overhead door? Two doorways here on the west side?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then was it near either one of those doorways?

Mr. WEST. Well, it was near this one, pretty close to this one.

Mr. BELIN. It was close to what I would call a doorway, approximately in the middle side of the west wall of the first floor?

Mr. WEST. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you wrapped the mail?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you have the coffee machine?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; I have it.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you went when you got to work that morning?

Mr. WEST. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you first go to the domino room and leave your lunch or hang up your coat or anything?

Mr. WEST. No, sir. I just always go right there first. Sometime I pull my coat off and lay it over on the table and go right on.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay about making coffee when you got there? How long did you stay around that place when you first got there?

Mr. WEST. Well, let's see, it didn't take me too long. I mean, you know, to make the coffee. After I got it made, I went right on and went right on at my work wrapping mail.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay in that general area all the time?

Mr. WEST. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay in that general location all the time?

Mr. WEST. That was my, all my work was right there on the first floor. I never did---

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald that morning?

Mr. WEST. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WEST. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WEST. Yes; I had been seeing him every morning, you know. He would come to work. Excepting the morning, I didn't see him that morning at all.

Mr. BELIN. Did you generally see him when he first came to work?

Mr. WEST. Most of the time I see him.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see him when he first came to work?

Mr. WEST. Well, he would come in and probably I would be on my way back to the rest room, probably to get water in my percolator, or maybe wash the cups or something, and I would see him when he would come in, and I would speak and go right ahead.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Lee Harvey Oswald say?

Mr. WEST. I would just say to him, "Good morning," and he said, "Good morning," to me, and he was going right on, and I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever stop and get a cup of coffee?

Mr. WEST. I never did see him stop and get any. I don't know whether he drink coffee or not. He never did stop and get any.

Mr. BELIN. When you would see him, where would he be walking or working when he first came to work in the morning?

Mr. WEST. He would be order filler, and naturally, they have bins, all those bins down there made for stock, and he would be working around in there sometime.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when you walked into work, or did you see him after he started working?

Mr. WEST. Well, I would notice him times after he done started working.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't generally see him walking into work, did you, or did you?

Generally, when you would first see him, would he be just walking into work?

Mr. WEST. Be just coming in.

Mr. BELIN. What route would he take when he normally came to work? Do you know what doorway? Did he walk through the front or the back?

Mr. WEST. Well, it is through the back door. He would come in the side door next to the dock on the northeast side.

Mr. BELIN. Then what route would he take when he walked in?

Mr. WEST. Well, he would come right in, and a lot of times I would be mostly, or be passing him, and he would come right in and probably I'd go right on, and I never would see him no more than that he would be on that work, or whatever.

Mr. BELIN. When he came in, for instance, did he go right to an elevator to go upstairs, or did he go over to the domino room, or down to the basement, or where would he go when he would first come in?

Mr. WEST. He would go and pull off his jacket or coat or whatever he had on, and go on to work there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, where would he put his coat when he took it off?

Mr. WEST. Sometimes he would hang it up.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Mr. WEST. Pretty close to the elevator, or something, or lots of times he would just lay it down on something there in the building.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him take his jacket into the domino room to hang it up?

Mr. WEST. No; I never did see him.

Mr. BELIN. He would either lay his jacket or hang it up by the elevator, or lay it on these boxes where he was working, is that what your testimony is?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; he would lay it either close, hang it up on the elevator, or either lay it down.

A lot of times, he would just pull it off and lay it down.

Mr. BELIN. Would he ever take his shirt off and put it down there and just work in a T-shirt?

Mr. WEST. I don't believe I ever seen him working in just a T-shirt. He worked in his shirt all right, but I never did see him work in a T-shirt.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him carrying his lunch inside?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did see him with any lunch.

Mr. BELIN. On the morning of November 22, did you happen to see Buell Wesley Frazier? Do you remember Frazier who worked down there?

Mr. WEST. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see him come in that morning on November 22, that Friday, if you remember?

Mr. WEST. Well, lots of times I seen him that day, but now I didn't see him when he came in, because I had got busy at working and I might have probably had been in, you know, a good while before I saw him. I didn't see when he came.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe you earlier testified you never saw Oswald on November 22?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I didn't see him that day.

Mr. BELIN. Were you generally at your spot in the west part of the first floor there that you are talking about by the mailing place?

Mr. WEST. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were there many days when you would ever see him working down there in the morning near you?

Mr. WEST. No, sir. I had generally been seeing him nearly every morning, excepting that morning I didn't see him at all.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him every morning except that morning?

Mr. WEST. Practically every morning except then.

Mr. BELIN. When did you quit for lunch that day?

Mr. WEST. Well, we always quit at 12 o'clock in the day.

Mr. BELIN. Is that when you quit on November 22d?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well, I went in and washed my hands and face and then got ready to put my coffee on. I always make coffee at 12. Make it in the morning, and then I make it about 12, between 12 and 12:30.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you put your coffee on?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. In the west part of the first floor where you generally work?

Mr. WEST. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well, I went to get my lunch to eat a bite.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you get your lunch?

Mr. WEST. Well, I always kept my lunch right there close by my machine, by my wrapping machine that I use all the time, that I always kept my lunch. I have a little place underneath and I keep it there all the time.

Mr. BELIN. Are you the only one that wraps the books for mailing, or wraps them up for mailing?

Mr. WEST. Well, no, sir; I am not the only one, but mine is that way just every day.

Mr. BELIN. You do it all the time?

Mr. WEST. Yes; I do that.

Mr. BELIN. Are you the only one that does it all the time?

Mr. WEST. I am the only one that is steady, wraps mail all the time, although I have help, you know, when it gets stacked.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald ever help you wrap mail?

Mr. WEST. No sir; he never did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he ever borrowed or used any wrapping paper for himself?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. WEST. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him around these wrapper rolls or wrapper roll machines, or not?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never noticed him being around.

Mr. BELIN. Are they paper machines with the rolls of wrapping paper? You have some gum there too, for taping it? When you wrap it, would you tape it with some tape?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never noticed him being around.

Mr. BELIN. Did you do that? Did you put tape on the wrapping paper when it was being shipped?

When you wrap the books up with wrapping paper, did you have any gum tape that you put on it?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I had a machine that I placed it on the machine and tied it with, and the machine tied it with a string.

Mr. BELIN. With string?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't you have any gummed tape by your machine?

Mr. WEST. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any kind of a tape, sticky tape that you would put on the paper to keep it together, or was that somewhere else?

Mr. WEST. Oh, yes, sir; I used some of that wide tape.

Mr. BELIN. Is that sticky tape?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. To seal the package with?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that's right.

And then I tie it, put it on the machine and then tie it.

Mr. BELIN. Is yours the only place that they have the sticky tape?

Mr. WEST. Well, that is the only place that is supposed to be, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Could other employees come and pick up some of the tape for themselves?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; they could come get it if they wanted to use it, but all the time it was there where it is supposed to be.

Mr. BELIN. Did other employees from time to time come and borrow some of that tape at all, or use it?

Would other employees ever use any of that tape for themselves?

Mr. WEST. Not as I know of now.

Mr. BELIN. If I wanted to use any of that tape, you know that tape that you use to seal it, is there a way to make tape wet so I don't have to lick it myself with my tongue to make it wet and sticky? Or how did you get it to be sticky and stick together?

Mr. WEST. Well, we have those machines with the little round ball that we fill them up with water, and so we set them up. In to--other words, I got a rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, and whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you know, it gets water on it as we pull it through.

Mr. BELIN. If I wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without getting water on it, would I just lift it up without going over the wet roller and get the tape without getting it wet?

Mr. WEST. You would have to take it out. You would have to take it out of the machine. See, it's put on there and then run through a little clamp that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it gets water on it.

Mr. BELIN. Is this an electrical machine or is it just kind of a little apparatus for just pulling it through by hand?

Mr. WEST. Well, it is not electric, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now going back to November 22, you said you quit for lunch around noon on that day on Friday, November 22?

Mr. WEST. Yes. About 12 o'clock we always quit for lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any of the men coming down the elevator that day? Bonnie Ray Williams or James Jarman, Jr., or Danny Arce, or any one else coming down that morning? Charlie Givens?

Do you remember them coming down the elevator, or don't you remember?

Mr. WEST. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you quit for lunch, you made the coffee then?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you make the coffee?

Mr. WEST. I made the coffee right there close to the wrapping mail table where I wrap mail.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well, I sit down to eat my lunch.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. WEST. Well, I had just, after I made coffee, I just had started to eat my lunch because I was a little hungry--I didn't eat anything that morning before I went to work--and I had started to eat my lunch.

But before I got through, well, all of this was, I mean, the police and things was coming in, and I was just spellbound. I just didn't know what was the matter. So I didn't get through eating. I had to eat about half my lunch, and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any shots fired?

Mr. WEST. I didn't hear a one. Didn't hear a one.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were eating your lunch? Anyone else at all did you see on the first floor?

Mr. WEST. It wasn't anybody. I didn't see anybody around at that time.

Mr. BELIN. At any time while you were making coffee or eating your lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I didn't see.

Mr. BELIN. Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you--while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building?

Mr. WEST. Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were coming in the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch?

Mr. WEST. Well, that was police.

Mr. BELIN. A police officer?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. WEST. I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a crowd of them coming in there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building?

Mr. WEST. Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police.

Mr. BELIN. Was he one of the first people in, or did other people come in ahead of him, if you remember?

Mr. WEST. Really, I just don't know.

Mr. BELIN. That is okay if you don't remember. That is all I want you to say if you don't remember.

Did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like that?

Mr. WEST. I can't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working when you were eating your lunch? Were you facing the elevator or not when you were eating your lunch? Were you facing any of the elevators back there?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I was always--I mean I would always be with my back kind of, you know, towards the elevators and facing the front side over on the side.

Mr. BELIN. The Elm Street side?

Mr. WEST. Toward Elm Street side.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether anyone was using the elevators?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether anyone was going up and down the stairs?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything else about what happened on November 22, that might be helpful or relevant here?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I don't really.

Mr. BELIN. Were you ever on the second floor on November 22?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did hardly ever leave the first floor. That is just I stayed there where all my work was, and I just stayed there.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, did you ever leave the first floor?

Mr. WEST. No, sir; I never did leave the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of, whether I have asked it or not?

Mr. WEST. Well, I don't know anything else. I know of nothing else.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we thank you very much for coming down here, Mr. West. If you want, you can come back down again and read your deposition and sign it, or else you can just waive coming down here. You don't have to come down. You can tell the court reporter to send it directly to us, if you want to.

Mr. WEST. You mean when I get ready to sign it?

Mr. BELIN. Now you do not have to sign it if you don't want to. You can just tell the court reporter to type it up and send it directly to us, or you can tell the court reporter you would like to read it and sign it before she sends it to us in Washington.

You don't have to sign it. Or if you want to sign it, you can come back and sign it, whichever you want to do.

Mr. WEST. Well, I think--I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to come down here again and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive?

You can waive and tell the court reporter that she can just send it after she types it up, directly to us in Washington without your reading it and signing it.

Mr. WEST. Well, I think that is what I will do, just have it waived and send it on.

Mr. BELIN. All right, that is fine.

Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF DANNY G. ARCE

The testimony of Danny G. Arce was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. ARCE. Danny Garcia Arce.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. ARCE. 1502 Bennett Avenue.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school?

Mr. ARCE. I was born here in Dallas and I went to Stephen F. Foster Elementary school and Alex W. Spence Junior High and Crozier Tech.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I quit school and found a job and worked.

Mr. BALL. Where did you find a job?

Mr. ARCE. The first job, well, you don't want----

Mr. BALL. No; just in general.

Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall--Rubenstein and Sons. I haven't had too many jobs.

Mr. BALL. What is Rubenstein and Son, a restaurant?

Mr. ARCE. No; kind of an oyster place; they pack them and send them out, I guess.

Mr. BALL. What else have you done?

Mr. ARCE. That's about all.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. ARCE. I started in September--September, I believe, the 6th, September 6th.

Mr. BALL. Of what year?

Mr. ARCE. 1963.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here, didn't you?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You understand the purpose of the investigation?

Mr. ARCE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To determine the facts surrounding the assassination of the President, President Kennedy.

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You started to work in September 1963, this last September?

Mr. ARCE. Yes; last September.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you employed to do?

Mr. ARCE. Order filler.

Mr. BALL. What building did you work in?

Mr. ARCE. At the warehouse.

Mr. BALL. At Houston and Elm?

Mr. ARCE. No; that's on----

Mr. BALL. Which is this?

Mr. ARCE. That's the one behind it; directly behind the Texas School Book Depository at Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. You worked there most of the time as an order filler?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever work over at the building at 411 Elm?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me and the other boy down there.

Mr. BALL. Who is the other boy?

Mr. ARCE. Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL. They sent you out to do what?

Mr. ARCE. Help lay out a floor on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. What date did they send you down there?

Mr. ARCE. Sir, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. October?

Mr. ARCE. I know I had been there about 4 weeks when all that happened; I believe 4 or 5 weeks. I am not too sure about that.

Mr. BALL. You mean 4 or 5 weeks before November 22, 1963?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Were you laying floor at that time?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the sixth when this happened.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lee Oswald?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. He was kind of quiet. He didn't like to talk too much to us or anything.

Mr. BALL. You say he worked with you; did he work laying floors?

Mr. ARCE. No, he was an order filler; he just worked the same place.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him on the sixth floor?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, quite a few times.

Mr. BALL. Ever see him on the first floor?

Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with him?

Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, what time did you go to work?

Mr. ARCE. We start at eight but I believe I was a little late.

Mr. BALL. You went to work on what floor?

Mr. ARCE. Sixth.

Mr. BALL. Did you work there all morning?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get off work?

Mr. ARCE. That day?

Mr. BALL. At noon for your lunch hour or your lunch period?

Mr. ARCE. What time we left down for lunch?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. ARCE. We usually leave down about 5 to 12, something around there.

Mr. BALL. How did you go down stairs?

Mr. ARCE. By the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you have sort of a race that day, do you remember?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about it.

Mr. ARCE. Well, me and Bonnie Ray and, I am not too sure, I believe it was Billy Lovelady, were on the same elevator, and Charles Givens and the other guys were on the other one and we were racing down.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator were you on?

Mr. ARCE. We have two of them that go up, the same deal and I was on the one facing east. There's an east and a west elevator and I was in the one facing east.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald or hear him speak on the way down?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he was up there and I believe someone asked if he wanted to go down.

Mr. BALL. He was there--on what floor?

Mr. ARCE. That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he was on the fifth; I am not too sure.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. ARCE. He said "You all close the door on the elevator, I will be down," or somethin'. I didn't pay too much attention. He said to leave the elevator come down.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him around there after that?

Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't see him around after that.

Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?

Mr. ARCE. I went outside.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.

Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?

Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.

Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?

Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What about Givens?

Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess--I mean Melvin--no, Carl, that's who he was with.

Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.

Mr. BALL. Was he outside?

Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.

Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch?

Mr. ARCE. I don't know; I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Who went outdoors with you?

Mr. ARCE. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and Charles Givens.

Mr. BALL. You stood there how long before the parade came along?

Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere around there. I am not too sure about that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I did. I seen him when he turned the corner and when he went down that underpass thing and I heard them shots and I couldn't see anything. There was a lot of people.

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?

Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.

Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?

Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view and still couldn't see.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. ARCE. Three.

Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When you were on the grass, were you south where you were? Where were you with reference to the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. ARCE. I was down to the west side, a little more to the west.

Mr. BALL. Were you west of the building itself?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were not in front of the building?

Mr. ARCE. I was directly in front, but then I walked a few steps down to the west side.

Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to the west wall of the building?

Mr. ARCE. Oh, I was way far from it. I was across the street, I mean.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean "across the street"?

Mr. ARCE. Well, there's a little sidewalk right across the street and there's some grass and things up there and that's where I was at. I couldn't tell you exactly where I was, see, it's hard to explain.

Mr. BALL. Well, you say you were not in front of the building?

Mr. ARCE. Well, not directly, not in front; I was across the street.

Mr. BALL. And were you west of the west wall of the building?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I was, well the building----

Mr. BALL. I understand but you were to the south of the building. You had to be south of the building, didn't you?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I was south but I was, well, I guess you could say I was in front of the building but not directly in front, well, I don't know how to explain it.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I walked away from the other guys because they were all in front of the building and I went across the street to get a closer view.

Mr. BALL. You walked which direction?

Mr. ARCE. I just--right across the street.

Mr. BALL. Right across Elm Street?

Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. The part of Elm that dead ends there?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You crossed that and went on to the grassy part?

Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what direction?

Mr. ARCE. From the tracks on the west deal.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. ARCE. Three.

Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building?

Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there?

Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there?

Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out.

Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department.

Mr. BALL. Well, just I minute, let's see----

Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there.

Mr. BALL. You saw an old man?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. ARCE. Right, you know, it was before it happened; I don't know.

Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by?

Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure.

Mr. BALL. What about the old man; what was noticeable about him?

Mr. ARCE. Well, he said he had kidney trouble, could I direct him to the men's room and I said I would and I helped him up the steps and walked him into the restroom and I opened the door for him and that's when I went inside to eat my lunch and then I seen him walk out.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him talk to anyone in there?

Mr. ARCE. No; he went straight out.

Mr. BALL. Was he in a car?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, after I went outside I seen him driving out in a black car.

Mr. BALL. He drove away?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. ARCE. No, never seen him again.

Mr. BALL. Just I minute, I want to show you a picture. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 369. I show you this picture. See this man in this picture?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Recognize him?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Just to identify it clearly, the man on the steps--well, you see the man on the steps, do you not?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He is a white man, isn't he?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you see his picture just above the picture of two colored people, is that correct; would you describe it like that?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am not going to mark this purposely because other witnesses have to see it.

Mr. ARCE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you say that is Billy Lovelady?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, that is Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is only one face that is clearly shown within the entrance-way of the Texas School Book Depository Building, isn't there?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And only one face of a person who is standing on the steps of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. And that one man you see there----

Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. When you came to work that morning, Danny----

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there at the time?

Mr. ARCE. I believe I seen him once that morning on the first floor, some place around there. I'm not too sure.

Mr. BALL. But did you see him go into the building?

Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have in his possession any paper bag or sack that day?

Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you will have an opportunity to read it and sign it if you wish or you can waive signature. Which do you wish? If you waive signature, you don't have to come back. Which do you prefer? Do either one.

Mr. ARCE. I don't understand too well.

Mr. BALL. She writes this up. Then if you wish, you can come in, read it over and, if there are any changes to be made, you make them and you swear to it before this young lady, who is a notary public, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission.

Mr. ARCE. I guess you all could send it on to the Commission.

Mr. BALL. And you waive signature?

Mr. ARCE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF JOE R. MOLINA

The testimony of Joe R. Molina was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you rise and raise your right hand, Mr. Molina?

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOLINA. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. MOLINA. Joe R. Molina.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. MOLINA. 4306 Brown.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself; where were you born?

Mr. MOLINA. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I went to Crozier Tech High School and I finished after I came back from the service and at that time my intention was to go to college but I got married and instead went to business college. Then later on after attending about 5 months business college, I had to find a job because my wife was expecting a baby, consequently, I started working on-the-job training at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. About what date?

Mr. MOLINA. I started working in February of 1947.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there?

Mr. MOLINA. 16 years.

Mr. BALL. 16 years?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you wrote the Commission a letter asking to testify, didn't you?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I called in. I didn't know whether I was going to be called or not and they told me, you know, that I should write a letter and ask the Commission, you know. (Letter marked Molina Exhibit A.)

Mr. BALL. You wanted to be heard, is that right, before the Commission?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have something particularly you wanted to tell us?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, on November 23d following the assassination, I was paid a visit by the local police department at 1:30 in the morning and they sort of wanted to tie me up with this case in some way or another and they thought that I was implicated.

Mr. BALL. What makes you think they thought you were implicated?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, they were looking for something. I don't know what it was they were looking for in the house.

Mr. BALL. They came to your house here in Dallas?

Mr. MOLINA. That's right, woke up my wife and children; scared my wife half to death.

Mr. BALL. Did they search the house?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did they have a search warrant?

Mr. MOLINA. I don't know whether they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did they tell you what they were looking for?

Mr. MOLINA. No.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me questions whether I knew different persons that belong to the G.I. Forum----

Mr. BALL. To what?

Mr. MOLINA. G.I. Forum, this club I belonged to here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that?

Mr. MOLINA. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling].

Mr. BALL. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling] in Dallas?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was it that asked you that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I think it was Mr. Garroway did most of the questioning and police Lieutenant Revill, I believe--yeah, that was his name.

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you?

Mr. MOLINA. They asked me if I knew certain persons that had come into the forum when it was first initiated and if I was acquainted with them and if I associated with them, so forth and so on. I said my activities were limited to the club. I didn't have any social, you know, I wasn't intimate with them but merely a club that was started. I was asked by my pastor to go see about this particular club which I did and consequently, the club met at the church auditorium after it was founded and one of the parish priests was a chaplain.

Mr. BALL. Was it a Catholic, Roman Catholic organization?

Mr. MOLINA. The G.I. Forum?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. MOLINA. No; the forum is a veterans' club.

Mr. BALL. What else happened?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, after the police came, they didn't know whether--they were undecided what to do, whether they would take me in for questioning or not and so they decided evidently, since I told them--they asked me if they could take a look around. I said "Sure, I don't have anything to hide, look around". They looked around and did a lot of searching and my wife started to get back in bed. She didn't know that was going on. She thought they just want to question me and they told her she had to get out of bed and go into the living room and the kids were in the back room. I only have two bedrooms and the kids were sleeping out there. They woke up the kids; they were looking in their room, so they started questioning the kids, too. They started to ask me questions and ask the kids about it. In other words, to corroborate our statements. I didn't know at the time they were doing it but later on found out. They couldn't find anything. I knew they wouldn't find anything. I didn't know what they were looking for in the first place. They decided to bring me down to the Dallas Police Department for questioning.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police department?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me if I would go down the next morning and I said yes, I would go down the next morning. I would rather go down the next morning than now. It was already past 2, so the next morning my wife drove me down. I got there about 11. My wife drove me down and I got there about 10:30. The place was full of television people and reporters swarming all over the place and they told me to wait in the room there and then I went into Chief Gannaway's office or whatever his name is. He said I was supposed to be questioned by Mr. Fritz down there but that he wanted to talk to me after they questioned me up there because they wanted to know more about the G.I. Forum so I said "I will come back when they get through questioning me." So I went up there and they told me to wait in an office and so I waited there for about 30, 40 minutes and, oh, must have been longer than that, they finally questioned me and they put me in a room and there was a man from the FBI or Secret Service, I don't recall which one it was. He was sitting on my right and there was a fellow from the Dallas Police Department taking a statement and a fellow from the FBI introduced himself, said I'm so and so, show me his badge and so forth. The other fellow didn't say who he was or anything, just sat there and so then they told me to wait there in that room and I did. I was there for about 45 minutes and then the fellow came back from the FBI, said "My God, are you still in here?" I said "Yes," he said "How long you been here?" Here it was about 2 or 3 o'clock. I said "I have been here since about 11; I haven't eaten lunch or haven't had a drink of water". You know, I was just there and which he told this fellow, said "Can't you let him go; he has been here. He has already given his testimony statement, whatever he is going to give; you should let him go." This fellow said "No, he got to wait in there" so I had to go back in there; about 10 or 15 minutes later, they came back and I went up to the office of Lieutenant Revill and he started asking a lot of questions about the G.I. Forum, did I know such and such fellow--some I knew, they had been in the club. Naturally, I knew them though we weren't intimate friends, some were, some weren't. Then he gave me a bunch of names, I imagine they were in their so-called subversive files that they claim they have; of course, I didn't know a lot of them. In fact, I didn't know most of them. I knew some of the names. I didn't know some of the names they mentioned are kept in their files or not. Anyhow, they asked me--I had to--they didn't ask me--I had to just ask to sign a statement I belonged to the forum and certain members were charter members of the forum and I said yes, I would sign it. I didn't see anything wrong with it so I signed it and they told me I could go home. It was 4:30 or 5 and they asked me if I had a ride home and I said no. They said "Well, we'll give you a ride home, so one of the officers there, plainclothes man, drove me home. When I got home, of course, there were about three or four cars at the house. My wife was all shook up and she said "My God" she said "Don't you know what they been saying about you?" I said "No, I don't know what they are saying about me." She said "Don't you know you been on TV and the news media across the nation saying you are on the so-called list with the Dallas Police Department claiming that you associate with persons of"--see if I can quote it right--I was known to associate with persons of subversive background.

Mr. BALL. That was on TV?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Who put that on TV?

Mr. MOLINA. It was a statement made by Chief Curry.

Mr. BALL. By whom?

Mr. MOLINA. Chief Curry and I says "No, I didn't know anything about it. I was just being questioned." They said "Well, did you tell them to release your name?" I said "I don't know who gave my name out, gave out the information." So, they were very concerned because at first, I didn't think it was--I figured they would make a retraction and I would be cleared, so forth and so on and nothing came out on the radio and nothing was said and I called the Police Department and told them I wanted to talk to Chief Curry and they said he was busy. I was talking to, I think someone, fellow named King. He answered the phone and he said any retraction has to come from Chief Curry. I called the Associated Press which released the statement to the news media and they wouldn't give me any satisfaction. They told me I would have to get in touch with some fellow in New York or something like that, so that was--I couldn't get any satisfaction. I was accused of something I didn't know anything about.

Mr. BALL. Did they ever give you a retraction?

Mr. MOLINA. No.

Mr. BALL. Well, now----

Mr. MOLINA. And, consequently, well, that happened on November 23d; my boss was very upset about it. He said that the vice president of the company, Mr. Campbell, they didn't say anything to me, they didn't come to me and say "Joe, we will stand by you, we don't believe it." Nothing was said for about 10 days so I went in and told them, I said, "You don't have to be afraid, I'm going to get this thing cleared. I am going to find somebody to clear me of this." They said "You better do it very fast because the president is very upset about it and we have been getting a lot of calls and several people calling in and saying he hires subversives" and so forth and so on. I saw one letter did say that. It came to them from some fellow said he wasn't going to do business with that book firm because they hired Communists. I knew they were probably under pressure. Well, on December 13, they called me in and said they wanted to talk with me and they told me that due to automation I was going to have to be replaced. That happened in December 13, about 3 weeks afterwards so I told them I said "I don't really think that's the reason why you're letting me go, it's probably because of this other thing." He said "No, we got automation here, we are taking too much business in so we have to let you go." No news was ever given to me there was no machines for replacement, nothing, so I said--well, I didn't leave until December 30 and got all the routine work I had been assigned was gradually shifted to another person. I was there doing nothing. I finally left December 30 and I have received a letter from a friend in California saying my name was in the paper stating that I had been labeled as a communist and I got a call from Florida, from a good friend of mine saying they labeled me a communist and saying I was a friend of Oswald's.

Mr. BALL. Did you know him?

Mr. MOLINA. Oswald?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. MOLINA. No; I had seen him there in the building. I had seen him but never talked with him or been introduced.

Mr. BALL. Where are you working now?

Mr. MOLINA. I am working over here--that's another thing. I couldn't find a job. Who is going to hire me? So I called this friend of mine he belonged to the Dads Club where I go to church, Holy Trinity. His name is Mr. Redman, vice president at Neuhoff's. I called him about a job and he said "No, I don't have anything in your line of work." I happened to mention to him I used to do credit union work and at that time they happened to be looking for a man and that's the reason I found this particular job.

Mr. BALL. You are working at Neuhoff's Employees Credit Union?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Are you a bookkeeper; is that what you usually do is bookkeeping?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you pursue it any further; did you file any actions of any sort?

Mr. MOLINA. I have an attorney that is working towards something.

Mr. BALL. You went to work what date----

Mr. MOLINA. I went to work in February 1947.

Mr. BALL. For the Texas School Book Depository at that time.

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; at that time they were located at 2210 Pacific.

Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, the place you worked was in the second floor of this School Book Depository Building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; I was standing on the front steps.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.

Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch.

Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car pass?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound?

Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, this fellow come to me--Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?

Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.

Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?

Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.

Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.

Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go in?

Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before you saw Truly go in?

Mr. MOLINA. No.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Mr. BALL. You left the building that day about what time and went home?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, it must have been around, I would say, I would say it was about 2, maybe a little before that, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen Lee Oswald?

Mr. MOLINA. I had seen him in the building, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him?

Mr. MOLINA. No; I never spoke to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at all on November 22d?

Mr. MOLINA. I never did see him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building on that day November 22d?

Mr. MOLINA. No; like I stated before, I came in at--to work at 7 in the morning because I had a key and I was on the second floor all the time, never did leave except maybe to go to the restroom, something like that. Then I ate my lunch, took my lunch and ate it and went downstairs about 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Okay, thanks very much, Mr. Molina. This will be written up for your signature if you wish; you can come in and sign it or you can waive your signature, whichever you wish. If you wish to sign it, this young lady will notify you when it is typed and you can come in, read it, and sign it.

Mr. MOLINA. I just wanted to state in the record that I want to deny any accusations if there is any doubt in anybody's mind.

Mr. BALL. No; there is nobody I ever heard has accused you of anything.

Mr. MOLINA. I know there's a fella that I talk with that belongs to the or had worked with the FBI that knows my position in this thing.

Mr. BALL. I never heard anybody accuse you of any wrongdoing in connection with this matter.

Mr. MOLINA. In fact, Bill Lowery worked with the FBI.

Mr. BALL. You don't have to worry about that; no one is accusing you of anything.

Mr. MOLINA. Except the local people here.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it or do you want to waive your signature; how do you feel about it? It's your option; you can do either way.

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I would like to.

Mr. BALL. See it and sign it?

Mr. MOLINA. See it and sign it.

Mr. BALL. She will notify you then. She will tell you when to come in.

Mr. MOLINA. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY

The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Jack Edwin Dougherty.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. 1827 South Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Forty.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Sunset High School.

Mr. BALL. You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school? About?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, 1937.

Mr. BALL. 1937?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do during the service--during your period in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to----

Mr. BALL. Did you have any active service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there--Seymour, Ind.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go from there in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

Mr. BALL. You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. Or to the South Seas?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You stayed in this country all the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You never had any?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. None at all?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of the Army?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.

Mr. BALL. And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. September 17, 1940.

Mr. BALL. 1940 what?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be----

Mr. BALL. That would be 1952, wouldn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--that's 1952.

Mr. BALL. 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; that's right, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been married?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. And you still live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh--shipping clerk.

Mr. BALL. And what kind of work is that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the--they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that--that's it.

Mr. BALL. Did you know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald that worked at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well. You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself, and I'll be frank with you, I just flat didn't know him.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got there--it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say, I have a little--extra chores to do.

Mr. BALL. You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.

Mr. BALL. That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you did get there about 7 that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where--up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.

Mr. BALL. What is the ADT?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's that--I don't know too much about it--it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.

Mr. BALL. You mean the pressure, do you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that a fire-alarm system?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--you could call it that.

Mr. BALL. Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.

Mr. BALL. Anything else you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; I believe that just about covers it.

Mr. BALL. What time do you usually go to lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.

Mr. BALL. Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where do you usually eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they have got what they call a domino room in there and I usually eat it in there.

Mr. BALL. You usually eat your lunch in the domino room?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And how long do you take for lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BALL. Forty-five minutes?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you always take a full hour?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I usually do.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember the day of November 22, 1963; you do, don't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The day that the President was shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you went to work that day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--let's see--it was 12:30.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that particular morning--let's see, we didn't go back.

Mr. BALL. No; I mean, what time did you go to work the first thing in the morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was 8 o'clock when we were actually started to work.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to the building?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. At a quarter to 7.

Mr. BALL. At a quarter to 7?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers that you got there about 7 o'clock.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I mean, inside the building.

Mr. BALL. Inside the building?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when I got inside the building it was 7 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You parked your car?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't have a car--I have to ride the bus.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when he first come into the door.

Mr. BALL. When he came in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him come in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands or arms?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, not that I could see of.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day was that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. That was about 8 o'clock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What door did he come in?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, he came in the back door.

Mr. BALL. Where were you then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was--sitting on top of the wrapping table.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and to a man by the name of Ellington, or a Mr. Anderton, the day after--the 23d of November?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I talked to so many of them--it is kind of hard to remember.

Mr. BALL. And there is a statement that they took when they talked to you and in it you said, "I recall vaguely, having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I did--that morning.

Mr. BALL. That seems to be dated the 22d day of November 1963.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. The full statement is, "I am employed by the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, as an order filler, and reside at 1827 South Marsalis Street, Dallas, Tex."

Did you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "I started to work today, 11-22-63, at about 7 a.m. o'clock."

Did you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye--that's the reason why I said it that way.

Mr. BALL. Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I believe I can--yes, sir--I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your memory is definite on that, is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I would say that--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or, are you guessing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. You saw him come in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The back door on the first floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was in the back door.

Mr. BALL. Now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? That back door would be the first floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it opens where?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. On the back dock--on the back dock side over there.

Mr. BALL. That would be what direction from the first floor--what wall of the first floor--north?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, to be frank with you--I don't know which one it would be.

Mr. BALL. Is there only one back door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; there is only one back door.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him again that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; just one more time.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. On the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was about 11 o'clock--that was the last time I saw him.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing up there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock--as far as I could tell.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock also.

Mr. BALL. And were there some other workmen up there at the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning--laying floor on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; they were laying floor--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were they there at the time you were there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes, sir; they were there--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same time you saw Oswald?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; just about that time.

Mr. BALL. And how long were you on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, just long enough to get some stock.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also on the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Then, just about that time--I thought I heard----

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you go to lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was 12 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the truth?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were working on the sixth floor. Were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; we were working on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. You weren't helping the men lay floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To what floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. The first floor.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--used the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down alone or with someone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went down alone.

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Now, what time did you go back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, at 12:30.

Mr. BALL. Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they said something about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you intend to go out and watch him?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded--there was no way in the world I could get out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a look at it--did you go out and take a look at it, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you finished your lunch, didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir--just a short length of time.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then, I went back to work.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let me see--oh, up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was about 12:40--it was about 12:40.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any shots before that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I heard one--it sounded like a backfire.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard that shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was on the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL. Yes; and then what happened?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away----

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Before--before I ate my lunch.

Mr. BALL. You heard shots before you ate your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see--yes, I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to work that day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And that you went back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right--it sounded like a car backfiring.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; that was the only one I heard.

Mr. BALL. You only heard one?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did it sound like it came from?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.

Mr. BALL. From overhead?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Elevator.

Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this side--the one on this side is the one I took.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't mean much when it's written down.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I know it.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. East side.

Mr. BALL. Is it the one that you punch a button on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or the one that you use a control on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It's the one you push a button on.

Mr. BALL. The one you push a button on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I believe that is the west side, isn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I believe it is.

Mr. BALL. Now, that's the one you took up?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you take that--to what floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I took it up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when I got through getting stock off of the sixth floor, I came back down to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. What did you do on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got some stock.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise--it sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the President been shot?" He said, "Yes."

Mr. BALL. You didn't say--did you say, "Has the President been shot?"--you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I asked him that too.

Mr. BALL. And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that somebody had just shot the President; is that right?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot first--you or Eddie Piper?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to Eddie Piper, did you know that the President had been shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't know that at the time.

Mr. BALL. When is the first time you heard that the President had been shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. When Eddie told me that.

Mr. BALL. Eddie told you that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You told Mr. Johnson of the Federal Bureau of Investigation that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn't tell where--you told him that on the 19th; did you tell him that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderton that you heard "a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me."

Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You did not tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at the time it did--yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me this--when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor--tell me exactly where you were?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator--the west side of the elevator.

Mr. BALL. That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what were you doing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I came on back downstairs.

Mr. BALL. How did you come downstairs?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I used that push button elevator on the west side.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I didn't hear anybody yell.

Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men--I imagine it was who it was--he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't know where he was so I started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells.

Mr. BALL. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth floor, which I didn't find.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a gun around there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building that day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.

Mr. BALL. Who said that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.

Mr. BALL. When did Shelley tell you that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, it was--the day after it happened.

Mr. BALL. Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I'm positive.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't see nobody--there wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all--it was just myself.

Mr. BALL. You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had been on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then you went down to the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady----

Mr. BALL. That was in the morning, wasn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That wasn't after lunch, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was before lunch--it was before lunch.

Mr. BALL. You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I believe it was--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were alone, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you can waive your signature.

What do you want to do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, whatever you want to do--it doesn't make any difference.

Mr. BALL. Would you like to come down and read it over and sign it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, if you've got time I'll sign it now.

Mr. BALL. Well, we have to write it up--this has to be written up and it will be so that you can read it. This young lady will notify you and you can come down and read it over and sign it.

Will you do that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. All right.

Mr. BALL. And we will mark these statements as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. A, B, and C, and attach them to your deposition.

Thank you very much, and goodby.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's quite all right--thank you.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Dougherty Exhibits Nos. A, B, and C, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER

The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name please, Mr. Piper?

Mr. PIPER. Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL. And what is your address?

Mr. PIPER. 1507-1/2 McCoy.

Mr. BALL. Tell me, Mr. Piper, where you were born and raised.

Mr. PIPER. In Travis County.

Mr. BALL. Texas?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. PIPER. I went to school at Manor, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far of school did you go?

Mr. PIPER. Eighth grade.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?

Mr. PIPER. I went to work then.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. PIPER. I went to work doing harvest work, some in oil field in Chickasha, Okla., and done farm work.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in the Army?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. PIPER. 56.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. PIPER. Well, I would say I have been working for them about 4 or 5 years--I'm not sure--I don't know exactly.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. PIPER. Janitor.

Mr. BALL. Have you been janitor ever since you were employed?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Oswald, that worked there?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; I know of him.

Mr. BALL. You knew of him?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you know him personally?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you, say "Hello" or anything of that sort?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever reply to you that you can remember?

Mr. PIPER. If he did, I didn't ever hear him. He mumbled something and he would just keep walking.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you remember that day, don't you?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that day?

Mr. PIPER. 10 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. That was your usual time to go to work?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And, did you see Oswald that morning?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor filling orders.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again that day?

Mr. PIPER. You mean all day--the rest of the day?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. PIPER. No.

Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?

Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?

Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him--"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"--he mumbled something--I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.

Mr. BALL. The first window on the first floor?

Mr. PIPER. No, not the first window--but on the first floor about the second window on the first floor. I was intending to sit there so I could see the parade because the street was so crowded with people--I didn't see anything.

Mr. BALL. You said you sat at the second window--that would be what window from the corner?

Mr. PIPER. Well, from the front door, you know where the front door is--going back right down Elm, it's the second window from the corner.

Mr. BALL. You say you sat down there?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you sit on?

Mr. PIPER. On a box.

Mr. BALL. Could you see out the window?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, I could see out the window but I couldn't see anything--too many people.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch there?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when the President's motorcade went by?

Mr. PIPER. Now, I don't know--I was sitting there, I'm sure.

Mr. BALL. When the President went by, where were you sitting?

Mr. PIPER. Probably sitting there in the same place.

Mr. BALL. Did you move from there from the time you had your lunch until the President went by?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, I moved--when there was a shot, I moved.

Mr. BALL. When there was a shot you moved?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From the time you had your lunch until the shot, did you move?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were at that window all of the time?

Mr. PIPER. All the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there at any time that day?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you above the first floor that day up to the time of the shot?

Mr. PIPER. Before the shot?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. PIPER. At 11 o'clock I went to the fourth floor to pick up.

Mr. BALL. You went to the fourth floor?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, at 11 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And you worked there for how long?

Mr. PIPER. I would just take about 10 or 15 minutes to pick up--not quite that long, to pick up the mail and stuff in the fourth floor office.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. PIPER. I came back down to the third floor and picked up and from there to the second and picked up and on to the first floor.

Mr. BALL. Is that what you usually did--was pick up?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir; every day.

Mr. BALL. Do you do that every day?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You pick up mail?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You pick up mail from what offices?

Mr. PIPER. From--what the name of the office is?

Mr. BALL. The different offices?

Mr. PIPER. Oh, I pick up mail first--on the fourth floor is Scott Pharmacy, and I come down on the third floor and I pick up there in the hall, you know, they have a hallway there and they put it out on the table--the packages and the mail, and I pick it up there unless they've got a name on the boards to see them in the office and then I go in the office. That's on the third floor. I come down on the second floor and I pick up for Southwestern. I goes in the office and that's the only office I go in there at Southwestern. Like I say--unless there is anything on the board that says see Lon Cunningham, and then I go in there. That's on the second floor, and from there back down to the first floor, and I unloads on the table on the first floor and that's when I'm through--I don't go back no more.

Mr. BALL. You do that every day?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At a certain time?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. At what time?

Mr. PIPER. At 11 and 3.

Mr. BALL. Now, that day, November 22, 1963, you picked up the mail on the fourth floor at 11 did you?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then came to the third?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then to the second?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what time did you come to the first floor?

Mr. PIPER. Well, it was close to--around about--it must have been about 11:30--about 11:30 when I came back.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from 11:30 until 12?

Mr. PIPER. No.

Mr. BALL. What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?

Mr. PIPER. Just about 12 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And do you remember exactly what he said?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was muttering out something--I didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out.

Mr. BALL. He said something like that?

Mr. PIPER. Yes--something like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see what he did?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see where he went?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You told me that you went to the window?

Mr. PIPER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. This is the second window to the right?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Of the front door--that would be looking toward Elm Street, is that right?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were you sitting there when you heard the shot?

Mr. PIPER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you heard?

Mr. PIPER. I heard one shot, and then the next shot went off--the one that shot him and I got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where I could see what happened and before I could get there, the third shot went off, and I seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and I looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone.

Mr. BALL. You say you heard one shot--you heard two shots and you got up and then what happened, where did you go?

Mr. PIPER. I came out to the end of the counter where they make coffee there by the stand.

Mr. BALL. You said you did it so you could see out better?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I did it to see what time it was--when all this happened--to see what time it was.

Mr. BALL. What time was it?

Mr. PIPER. It was about between 12:30--between 12:27 and 12:30--something like that, as near as I can remember.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir--I couldn't, not for sure.

Mr. BALL. The direction?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you look out the window later?

Mr. PIPER. No more--no, sir; I didn't go back to any window.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned you saw Truly?

Mr. PIPER. I don't know whether it was a policeman or FBI or who it was, but another fellow was with him.

Mr. BALL. And where were you?

Mr. PIPER. Standing right there where they make coffee.

Mr. BALL. What did they do?

Mr. PIPER. He ran in and yelled, "Where is the elevator?" And I said, "I don't know, sir, Mr. Truly."

They taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all I know about that.

Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor?

Mr. PIPER. No--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You never did--either before or after the shots?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, that day, you went over to the sheriff's office and made a statement, didn't you?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir--no, sir; not that day.

Mr. BALL. Did you the next day?

Mr. PIPER. Saturday.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sheriff's department?

Mr. PIPER. I went to the county--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell them at any time that you saw Lee about 12 o'clock?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And that Lee said, "I'm going up to eat?"

Mr. PIPER. He said either "up" or "out"--that's the way I reported it.

Mr. BALL. That's what you told them?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on that day, did you tell them that the shots that you heard seemed to come from inside the building?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You did tell them that?

Mr. PIPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was that your best impression then?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; they seemed like they did come from the building, you know, by the vibration of that window--it seemed like nobody had shot in the window from the outside--it might have been coming from the building--is what I figured.

Mr. BALL. You told them that day that you thought it came from inside the building?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From inside the building?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, this statement you made to the sheriff's department, I'll show it to you--that's a copy there and is that your signature?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's my signature.

Mr. BALL. We'll attach that as Exhibit A to your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Piper Exhibit No. A," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and you can come down here and look it over and sign it, if you wish.

Mr. PIPER. All right.

Mr. BALL. Or, you can waive your signature, just as you wish. Do you have any choice--which had you rather do?

Mr. PIPER. Well, what is supposed to be done--I don't really quite understand?

Mr. BALL. You can do it either way. You see, we are going to write it up--this young lady will write it up and if you want to come down and sign it, you can come down and sign it, or you don't need to sign it. You can waive your signature and we will send it on as it is written up. It is up to you which you would rather do.

Mr. PIPER. Well, I can sign it, but I don't know when I am supposed to come back to sign it.

Mr. BALL. Well, you will be notified.

Mr. PIPER. All right. I'll do that.

Mr. BALL. All right, she will call you and ask you to come back and sign it.

Mr. PIPER. All right, I'll come back and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. PIPER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MISS VICTORIA ELIZABETH ADAMS

The testimony of Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss ADAMS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Would you please state your name?

Miss ADAMS. Victoria Elizabeth Adams.

Mr. BELIN. Are you known as Vickie Adams?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Miss ADAMS. 4906 Wenonah, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Miss ADAMS. I am employed as an office survey representative.

Mr. BELIN. By whom?

Miss ADAMS. Scott Foresman Co.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you work?

Miss ADAMS. On the fourth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Miss ADAMS. 411 Elm.

Mr. BELIN. That is at the corner of Elm and Houston?

Miss ADAMS. That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. I might ask how old are you?

Miss ADAMS. Twenty-three.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born originally? In Texas?

Miss ADAMS. San Francisco, Calif.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in San Francisco?

Miss ADAMS. I attended part of my grammar school and high school in San Francisco.

Mr. BELIN. Were you graduated from high school?

Miss ADAMS. In San Francisco, that's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. Following that I entered the Ursaline Order in St. Mary's, Ohio, and I left there as a novice in 1961.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do from there?

Miss ADAMS. I went to Atlanta, Ga. and taught school at the Immaculate Heart of Mary School. And following that I came to Dallas and was employed by the Holiday Inn Central during the summer months, and I obtained a teaching position at St. Monica's School here.

Mr. BELIN. And you taught at St. Monica for some period of time?

Miss ADAMS. Yes; for 1 year.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went to work for Scott Foresman?

Miss ADAMS. I went to work for Scott Foresman.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at work on November 22, 1963?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Were you aware of the fact that the President's motorcade was going to go right by your building?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How did you learn of this information?

Miss ADAMS. Through newspaper media and also conversation.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when you first read about it in the papers?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been before November 22d?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when the motorcade passed?

Miss ADAMS. I was at the----

Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside the building?

Miss ADAMS. I was inside the building.

Mr. BELIN. What floor?

Miss ADAMS. Fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch the motorcade through a window?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sometimes that is kind of complicated to try and pick out which window if you are counting from the right or left, so I am going to count from the east side of the building to the west side of the building.

Now the windows are separate windows, but they are kind of in pairs, so to speak. Were you standing on the first pair of windows, either one of those two windows?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Counting from the east side, were you standing in the second pair of windows?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. From the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window?

Miss ADAMS. The west window.

Mr. BELIN. So another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With whom?

Miss ADAMS. I was standing with Sandra Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy May Garner.

Mr. BELIN. Will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard?

Miss ADAMS. I watched the motorcade come down Main, as it turned from Main onto Houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on Elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late President, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them.

Mr. BELIN. Where was their car as you got this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? Had it come to that point on Elm, or not, if you can remember?

Miss ADAMS. I believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Miss ADAMS. And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract women's attention. Then we heard--then we were obstructed from the view.

Mr. BELIN. By what?

Miss ADAMS. A tree. And we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.

It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report.

And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?

Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone going along with you?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. BELIN. When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?

Miss ADAMS. I went to the back stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Those stairs would be in the northwest corner of the building, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?

Miss. ADAMS. I was running. We were running.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of shoes did you have on?

Miss ADAMS. Three-inch heels.

Mr. BELIN. You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?

Miss ADAMS. Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the stockroom, did you see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth floor other than the person you were with?

Miss ADAMS. Outside of our office employees; no.

Mr. BELIN. Would these office employees that you might have seen, all be women?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got to the stairs and you started going down the stairs. You went from the fourth floor to the third floor?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct?

Mr. BELIN. Anyone on the stairs then?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running?

Miss ADAMS. The elevator was not moving.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was not moving on some other floor?

Miss ADAMS. Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate.

Mr. BELIN. By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look to see if the elevator was moving?

Miss ADAMS. It was not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. It was not moving?

Miss ADAMS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. As you got to the third door, did you take a look at the elevator again at all, or not, if you remember?

Miss ADAMS. I can't recall.

Mr. BELIN. As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see anyone on the third floor?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you see?

Miss ADAMS. Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN. You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I have a document here called Commission's Exhibit No. 496, which includes a diagram of the first door, and there is a No. 7 and a circle on it, and I have pointed to a place marked No. 7 on the diagram. Is that correct?

Miss ADAMS. That is approximate.

Mr. BELIN. Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did you see any other employees there?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Any other people prior to the time you saw them?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the stairs?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. What about any motorcycle police officers?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?

Miss ADAMS. I said I believed the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what they said?

Miss ADAMS. Nothing.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?

And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go from there?

Miss ADAMS. I proceeded--which way is east and west?

Mr. BELIN. East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks.

You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?

Miss ADAMS. I went west towards the tracks.

Mr. BELIN. How far west did you go?

Miss ADAMS. I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."

And he said, "That is tough, get back."

I said, "Well, was the President shot?"

And he said, "I don't know. Go back."

And I said, "All right."

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. I went back, only I went southwest.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you come back the same entrance you went out?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?

Miss ADAMS. Well, I didn't go back in right away.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Miss ADAMS. When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"

And she said, "I don't know."

And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.

There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?

Miss ADAMS. It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs----

Mr. BELIN. Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?

Miss ADAMS. There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he let you come back in?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN. You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS. By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN. Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS. I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS. Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS. I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS. I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS. I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?

Miss ADAMS. Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?

Miss ADAMS. I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN. So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?

Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?

Miss ADAMS. I saw them there.

Mr. BELIN. I mean; you saw them?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?

Miss ADAMS. Definitely.

Mr. BELIN. Less than 30 seconds?

Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or did you know Lee Harvey Oswald either by sight or by name?

Miss ADAMS. I didn't know Lee Harvey Oswald, per se. I didn't know his name. I recognized him after I saw him on television, as having been with some men, but I had no dealing with him.

Mr. BELIN. By that, you mean having been employed with some men by the Texas School Book Depository?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything connected with the assassination?

Miss ADAMS. At the time I left the building on the Houston Street dock, there was an officer standing about 2 yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the Texas School Depository, and about 4 yards from the corner of Houston and Elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and I don't know if that is pertinent.

Mr. BELIN. No one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left?

Miss ADAMS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. That is helpful information. Is there any other information that you have that could be relevant?

Miss ADAMS. There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.

And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else?

Miss ADAMS. That is all, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Miss Adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?

Miss ADAMS. I think I will let you use your own discretion.

Mr. BELIN. It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.

Miss ADAMS. That is all right.

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for your cooperation. We know that it has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer?

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF GENEVA L. HINE

The testimony of Geneva L. Hine was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss HINE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Miss HINE. Geneva L. Hine.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live.

Miss HINE. 2305 Oakdale Road in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself; where you were born and raised, and educated and what kind of work you have done.

Miss. HINE. I was born and raised in Martinsville, Ind., and I graduated from elementary and junior high and high school at that same town. I attended the Ball State Teachers' College in Muncie, Ind., and I attended Metropolitan Bible Institute in Suffern, N.Y., and I received my Bachelor of Science theology degree from Assembly of God College in Waxahachie, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Miss HINE. Oh, I have always worked as a one-girl office girl until the job I have now.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Miss HINE. In December 1956.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?

Miss HINE. I have the credit desk.

Mr. BALL. Now, in November, November 22, 1963, where was your desk; in what part of the building?

Miss HINE. My desk was on the second floor, the inside wall just along by the corridor.

Mr. BALL. Did you spend most of your time at your desk?

Miss HINE. At that time?

Mr. BALL. Yes; at that time.

Miss HINE. No, sir; the girls were gone and they wanted to go out and see.

Mr. BALL. I mean did you spend most of your time in your work--it was a desk job?

Miss HINE. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in the other floors of the building any?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; as my duties necessitated I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did you first meet him?

Miss HINE. I never met him to know his name but I saw him every day.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Miss HINE. Downstairs in the warehouse or stockroom whichever you want to call it.

Mr. BALL. The first floor?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him on any other floors?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I saw him on the second floor about noontime almost every day. He would come in and ask for change, for a dime or quarter.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him use any part of the second floor?

Miss HINE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him spend the dime to buy anything with it?

Miss HINE. No, sir; the coke machine isn't in our room and I wouldn't have seen it.

Mr. BALL. Where is the coke machine?

Miss HINE. Out in the little lunchroom back of our office.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to Oswald?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever speak to you?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. He never replied to you?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Would you say he was unfriendly?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I would.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him smile or laugh?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of an expression did he have on his face most of the time?

Miss HINE. I describe it as being stoic.

Mr. BALL. That's a pretty good description if he doesn't smile.

Miss HINE. It was just----

Mr. BALL. Did you ever mention this to any of the people around there about Oswald?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I mentioned it to Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Miss HINE. One day I said to Mr. Shelley, "Who is that queer duck you have working down here" and I said that just as a matter of slang because I've known Mr. Shelley for a long time and I was just talking to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak to me because I have to go down there to pick up the little "comp" or gift slips on my desk. Every time I went by him I would speak to him, say "Good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so I just made that remark to Mr. Shelley because I had spoken to him so many times and he never answered.

Mr. BALL. What did Shelley say?

Miss HINE. He said that was just his way.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, did you know that there was to be a motorcade or parade come by your building?

Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you find that out?

Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I cannot remember.

Mr. BALL. You were just aware of the fact?

Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I had previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought nothing about it.

Mr. BALL. Did they all go out?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out.

Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on that second floor office?

Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was about there.

Mr. BALL. Then he went out?

Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will go out for 5 minutes."

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Miss HINE. Otis N. Williams.

Mr. BALL. He works in the office, too?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row.

Mr. BALL. Was there a switchboard?

Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a switchboard?

Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building.

Mr. BALL. Were you alone then at this time?

Miss HINE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay at your desk?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the window?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you look out?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Going north on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?

Miss HINE. Three.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell where the shots were coming from?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.

Mr. BALL. You could see--could you see any part of Elm?

Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.

Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That opens on----

Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and----

Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

Mr. BALL. On to Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was which company?

Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?

Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.

Mr. BALL. Did they did come in rapidly?

Miss HINE. They did come in rapidly.

Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?

Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?

Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.

Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it" and so I was busy with the phone.

Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?

Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.

Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?

Miss HINE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?

Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.

Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; which do you prefer? Do you have any choice?

Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it.

Mr. BALL. Prefer to see it, all right, then this young lady will inform you to come down, read it, look it over and sign it.

Miss HINE. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

Miss HINE. You are very welcome.

TESTIMONY OF MISS DORIS BURNS

The testimony of Miss Doris Burns was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Please stand up and hold up your right hand and be sworn.

Miss BURNS. (complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss BURNS. I do.

Mr. BALL. What is your name, please?

Miss BURNS. Doris Burns.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Miss BURNS. 2617 Shelby, Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Miss BURNS. I am a correspondent for the Macmillan Co.

Mr. BALL. Where is your office?

Miss BURNS. In the Texas School Book Depository Building on the third floor.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and what your business occupation has been.

Miss BURNS. Well, I was born in Tyler, Tex., and I graduated from high school here in Dallas and I worked many years for lawyers here.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work?

Miss BURNS. Well, I was just a legal secretary and worked for Vanette Hosiery Mills, secretary to the president. They are not here any more, I don't think. After that I worked for a geologist.

Mr. BALL. Most of your work has been secretarial, has it?

Miss BURNS. Yes, but at Macmillan I mostly compose my own letters.

Mr. BALL. When did you go to work for Macmillan?

Miss BURNS. April 19, 1955. Am I too fast?

Mr. BALL. She can write as fast as you talk.

Miss BURNS. That's wonderful.

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.

Miss BURNS. Let's see, I've forgotten what else you wanted to know.

Mr. BALL. Well, first of all, you went to work in 1955?

Miss BURNS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where is the office of the Macmillan Co.?

Miss BURNS. Well, at that time it was on Ross and Akard; now----

Mr. BALL. Where was it in November 1963?

Miss BURNS. At Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. What part of the building?

Miss BURNS. On the third floor, room 301.

Mr. BALL. Are there any windows in those offices?

Miss BURNS. Yes; they have some windows; they face the west, I guess you would say. They don't overlook the route of the President's----

Mr. BALL. Do they or do they not overlook Elm Street?

Miss BURNS. They do not overlook Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. They overlook the railroad yards, do they?

Miss BURNS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. On November 22d, what were you doing that day?

Miss BURNS. I was listening to the radio as I worked.

Mr. BALL. About noon, did you go to lunch?

Miss BURNS. Well, I had lunch at the office and then I didn't intend to go see the President, didn't have any desire to but I left about--I don't remember the exact time but, anyway, when I left they said on the radio that he--that the motorcade was coming up, I believe it was Cedar Springs; anyway, he hadn't been away from the airport long and that he was going about 5 miles an hour so everybody could see him. Well, thinking he was going that slowly, I thought I had plenty of time, so I walked up to Sanger's.

Mr. BALL. To where?

Miss BURNS. Sanger's.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Miss BURNS. It's about four blocks up Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Which way on Elm--east?

Miss BURNS. East; you see, we are down at the extreme west end of the street; nothing else down there.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Miss BURNS. I bought some Kleenex and came back, and everybody was out on the steps to look, but I didn't stop. I went on back to the office.

Mr. BALL. That is the third floor?

Miss BURNS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was anybody in the office?

Miss BURNS. Yes; Mrs. Case hadn't ever gone out. She was there. I believe she was the only one.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Miss BURNS. I listened to the radio, and by that time they said that he was on Main and turning at Houston or Main by the courthouse, so since he was that close, I thought, well, I guess I will go look out the window. I didn't care enough to go downstairs, but I thought I will go look out the window. So I thought I would have plenty of time, if he was just coming around Main Street, that I could still get around there, so I went around to American Book Co., which is the office closest to us that had a window looking out on Elm. There was nobody in there, so then I started down the hall to Allyn and Bacon. As I went down this hall towards the windows that looked out on Houston Street, I heard a shot, but I didn't think much about it. I didn't, of course, know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they all sound alike to me, so I didn't think a thing about that.

I went around to Allyn and Bacon, and Mr. Wilson, the manager, was at the window looking out. He was the only one in there, so I asked him if I could look out the window with him. About that time he said "Oh, my God, there's been a shooting." I still didn't think anybody, of course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or something, so I said "Has the President already passed? And he said "Yes," so I looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had the word "Press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing, so I said "Well, I guess I have missed the President then," and I started on back out of the office and I just said as I left, "Well, I hope nobody got hurt."

Mr. BALL. You heard how many shots?

Miss BURNS. One.

Mr. BALL. Just one?

Miss BURNS. It must have been the last one because I didn't hear any more.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any idea where it was coming from?

Miss BURNS. Well, it just sounded as though it was back of me. You see, I was going towards Houston Street. I was facing east and it sounded to me as if it came toward my back.

Mr. BALL. You were in the building?

Miss BURNS. Yes; I was in the building.

Mr. BALL. Walking down the hall?

Miss BURNS. Walking down the hall going towards Allyn and Bacon.

Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that?

Miss BURNS. I came on back and listened to the radio some more and in a few minutes, why, they told it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss BURNS. I rode on the elevator with him one time.

Mr. BALL. That's all?

Miss BURNS. But I didn't know who he was--about a week before.

Mr. BALL. You never talked to him?

Miss BURNS. I never talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Who were you with at the time this happened?

Miss BURNS. The Macmillan Co.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the office with you?

Miss BURNS. Mrs. Case, but I couldn't see her.

Mr. BALL. She was in the same office?

Miss BURNS. I have a private office. She was around the corner where her office is.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Case?

Miss BURNS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody running down the stairs at any time?

Miss BURNS. Yes, but I didn't know----

Mr. BALL. When?

Miss BURNS. It was after that; I went to the restroom.

Mr. BALL. How long after?

Miss BURNS. I imagine maybe it was 25 minutes. I imagine it was the policeman or somebody; of course, I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Miss Burns. This will be written up and you can sign it; you can read it and sign it or you can waive your signature if you wish and you won't have to come back here. Which would you rather do?

Miss BURNS. I can waive signature if that is all right.

Mr. BALL. Fine, thank you very much, Miss Burns.

TESTIMONY OF MARY E. BLEDSOE

The testimony of Mary E. Bledsoe was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, David W. Belin, and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe was accompanied by her attorney, Miss Melody June Douthit.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mrs. Bledsoe, please. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I do.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Mary E. Bledsoe.

Mr. BALL. And your residence?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. 621 North Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Bledsoe, you received a letter from the counsel for the Commission asking you to be here today, didn't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you received that what date? March 26, or was it March 27?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. When? This first time?

Miss DOUTHIT. No, back.

Mr. BALL. I mean the letter your attorney just showed me. Seventeenth of March?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And you have come down here in response to that letter, haven't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you are here appearing with your attorney, who is present at this time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You've been asked to give testimony in this matter which concerns an investigation into the assassination of President Kennedy, and certain facts which you have, which I believe that you knew of, and we are going to ask you questions about it. That is the general subject of the investigation.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And you are willing to testify, are you not?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And give us as much help as you can?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is your--you have given us your address, haven't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something, briefly, about your past life? Where you were born and what your education was and what your occupation has been?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I was born in the country. Town of about 12 miles from Corsicanna, Tex. My father was a doctor down there, and I was a second child; I have a brother older than I am. And then I moved to Ennis, and then come to Dallas and lived here until I was a little girl, 4 or 5 years old, then I went back down to Ennis and my father practiced medicine in Ennis, Tex., and then about--I married then when I was 17, and then I moved around quite a little while I was married, but--and then my husband and I, we had trouble, and I divorced him in--oh, about in 1925, and I raised my two children by myself, and I have been in the place where I live 24 years, and over on the back, I was--I have been here 43 years in the neighborhood, and I raised both of my boys, and they are grown.

Mr. BALL. Your occupation has been that of a housewife?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. Well, I had rented rooms, but I had some money my father had given me. I had some money from him.

Mr. BALL. Your present address, you rent rooms, do you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I do, now. I have just started in September again. My son left home, you see, and I started----

Mr. BALL. That was September of 1963?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How large a house is that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is all on one floor. And I have four bedrooms, but I rent three.

Mr. BALL. In September of 1963, you were living there alone, were you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; my son was living there.

Mr. BALL. And he left?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Did you rent rooms before your son left your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see, now, oh, yes; uh-huh, in September I----

Mr. BALL. Except his bedroom?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. When he left you rented another bedroom, did you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well yes; I am trying to. Haven't got it rented.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever rent a room in your home to Lee Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me about the first time that you ever saw him. What the date was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. The first time I ever saw him or heard of him, I was in the backyard doing a lot of yardwork. I come around the house and he was standing on the porch, and he said, "Do you have a room for rent?"

I had a "for rent" sign out. I said, "Yes" and he said, "May I see it?"

And I wanted--"Yes"; and then I was trying to size him up to get in that room, and--in the house, and I said, "Are you married?"

And he said, "Yes; I am married. I just want this for a short time. My wife lives at Irving."

And then we got inside the house and he had a thing where this--pictures of his wife and baby, and he said he was in the Marine Corps, and I tried to be nice to him, and so, he paid me $7, and----

Mr. BALL. Then did he tell you what his name was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. His name was Oswald, and he put it on this thing, and my son took it and sold it.

Mr. BALL. You said he put it on this thing?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. This right here.

Mr. BALL. What is, "this thing"?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Calendar.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. Mary, why don't you pull up your chair and be comfortable while you are doing this. Now, you are all right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have a calendar here?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is my calendar.

Mr. BALL. That is the calendar for December 1963, and I notice it has dates and names and dates. Is that the way you keep books on your rooms?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I don't now. I did then, because I just had started. The first one I got was in September.

Mr. BALL. September of 1963?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. He put his name on the calendar?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, got it in September. He got it, my son sold it for $5, and I didn't even know that he tore that out.

Mr. BALL. Now, let me see here in this calendar. It runs from January 1963, to December of 1963, but October of 1963, has been torn out?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. And he said his name was Lee Oswald was what his name was, and I said, "Well, I can't think of that name Oswald, I will call you Lee."

So, he put it down on the 4th. Just rented for a week, you see, the 7th.

Mr. BALL. You said the 4th?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the 7th.

Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October? That is the first day you ever saw him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Ever saw him.

Mr. BALL. On the 7th of October you rented the room to him, didn't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And is that the date that he put his name on the calendar?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; that is the day.

Mr. BALL. He paid you $7?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. $7 in money.

Mr. BALL. That was the rental?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. For one room.

Mr. BALL. For one room for 1 week?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When did he move into the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right then.

Mr. BALL. Did he have his things?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Had his things on his hand and had his bag, but after he paid my $7 he went out--I don't know, I think this YMCA, but I am not supposed to know where, and brought back another bag, and then he said, "Well, where is the grocery store?"

Well, I said, "It is down that way," but I didn't want him to use the kitchen, so, he said, "I'm going to get some milk," and so, I didn't like that much, but I didn't say anything about it because I wanted to get along with him.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you some questions before we commence the grocery store part of it.

When you first saw him, did he have his luggage with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he have with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. A bag.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember where--seemed like it was a kind of a duffelbag.

Mr. BALL. The kind the men in the service put their clothes in?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and had some on his arm, these coathangers, you know.

Mr. BALL. Had some things on a coathanger?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And had a clock.

Mr. BALL. Had what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. A clock, wrapped up.

Mr. BALL. What color was this duffelbag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think it was blue.

Mr. BALL. That was the only bag he had with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, he went off to town and got another one.

Mr. BALL. Then he went off to town and brought another bag back, would you describe that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Was it leather or----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. Could you give me any idea of the size of it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was big. About like that [indicating].

Mr. BALL. About like that, you mean, oh, 3 feet long, 2 feet, 2-1/2?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; about like that.

Mr. BALL. About----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. As well as I remember.

Mr. BALL. About 2 feet long? Was it brown?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I just couldn't remember. I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember him carrying it into the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember he went in.

Mr. BALL. Now----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I didn't pay any attention. He rented the room, and I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. BALL. Did he carry it by a handle, or in his arms?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess he carried it by a handle, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He brought two bags into this room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; wasn't but one when he come in, but next time he went off----

Mr. BALL. He brought another one back?

How did he come out there, do you know?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I don't know whether he come here--he come and just knocked on the door. I was in the backyard.

Mr. BALL. After he moved, after he put his bags in his room, did he leave?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he said----

Mr. BALL. I mean, did he leave to go downtown to get the other bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, and come back.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. The time he went to get the other bag, did you see him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of transportation he had?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I guess I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him drive up in a car?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, always took a bus.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I saw--one time he stopped over there across the street and get the bus that is the only time I didn't--I didn't watch what he did. Of course, I had no idea he was the kind of man he was.

Mr. BALL. You say that he asked you where the grocery store was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Is that when he came back with this second bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh, I got him something to eat.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him anything about his using your refrigerator?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. One question. Ask her how long he was gone and you will know how far he went. That is what I wanted to know.

Mr. BALL. When he left to get this second bag, how long was he gone?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, not over an hour. About an hour. It wasn't a long--I wondered then where he went, but it wasn't none of my business.

Mr. BALL. You say now not over an hour. Do you think it might have been less than an hour?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I believe less than an hour.

Mr. BALL. How much less?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I'd say 40 minutes, anyway, at most.

Mr. BALL. This was in the afternoon, was it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; started at 3 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. At 3 o'clock he came to your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then he came back the second time with the second bag before 4, did he?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I'm sure he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any about the use of the refrigerator?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he said he was going to put something in there, and I said--I didn't have anything to say, and I hemmed-and-hawed, I said, "Well, no; I don't have a very big refrigerator."

Well, he said, "I won't use it after this time." He was very, very congenial.

Mr. BALL. Did he go down to the grocery store?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he buy?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He bought some peanut butter and some sardines, and some bananas and put it all in his room, except the milk, and he ate there, ate in his room. I didn't like that either.

Mr. BALL. He was there how many days?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was there 5 days, just 5 days.

Mr. BALL. He was there--what day of the week was the day that he came?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday and Tuesday he stayed home and went to bed, and stayed--I didn't pay any attention to him----

Mr. BALL. Monday night he stayed home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; after he went to the grocery store.

Mr. BALL. What about Tuesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Tuesday he went out at 9:30 and come home at 2:30. He was looking for a job, and called on the phone, wanted different ones, and I got the book, and papers, and tried to look for him a job, because he was a nice looking boy, and wanted a job.

Mr. BALL. Now, he went out at 9-9:30 in the morning and came back at 2:30?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Let's see. 1:30. I have my nap then, and it kind of interfered, but I didn't say anything.

Mr. BALL. You say you have a what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I have a nap then.

Mr. BALL. You take a nap in the afternoon?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I had a stroke, you see.

Mr. BALL. And it interfered with your nap when he came back?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; but I didn't say anything then, but then the next day----

Mr. BALL. Let's finish Tuesday.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right. That's all.

Mr. BALL. Did he go out again after he came home at 1:30?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Stayed in his room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. All the time, and stayed there that night, too.

Mr. BALL. All the time? What about Wednesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He left about 9 o'clock, and went off dressed. Had a white shirt and white tie and white--white trousers, and looked very nice. Went off Monday about 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. This is Wednesday.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Wednesday. Then he got back at 1:30.

Mr. BALL. Let me see, he left at 9?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Come back at 1:30?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did he go out again that day?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; but then he talked to somebody on the phone, and talked in a foreign language.

Mr. BALL. You mean when? Wednesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On Wednesday, I guess it was Wednesday, but I am sure it must have been Wednesday. I was in my room, and the telephone is over there [indicating], and I didn't like that, somebody talking in a foreign language and, so I told my girl friend, I said, "I don't like anybody talking in a foreign language."

Mr. BALL. What time of day did he call on the phone and talk in a foreign language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He come home at 1:30 and talked about 2 or 2:30, talked like that.

Mr. BALL. Did he go out again that day?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; went to bed.

Mr. BALL. Went to bed that night and stayed there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I didn't fix his room either, that is why I didn't see his luggage. I didn't go in his room at all because they take care of their own rooms.

Mr. BALL. What about Thursday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Thursday, he went out at 10 o'clock or 10:30, and I was out in the yard, and he come out and I said, "Oh. I thought you had gone."

"Oh, no," he said, he didn't go, but he came home a little bit early, and after I said he got into my nap, he come home at 2 o'clock, or 2:30, you see, and didn't leave until 10.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell him that he interfered with your nap?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What day did you tell him that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I told him that, I guess must have been Thursday. Thursday and then he----

Mr. BALL. You mean Thursday morning?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Well, then Thursday morning is when he left a little later than usual?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And you told him that he had interfered with your nap before that day?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I think it was--it must have been--no; it was that day. It was after I had that call. I didn't like that and he never said a word, and then I interviewed him when he first came in and thought he was all right, and he never spoke--I had one boy on the back. He never saw him and he would run to the bathroom and go to the icebox and get some ice, and didn't like that. Went too much to the icebox, but----

Mr. BALL. Well, now----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That was a Thursday.

Mr. BALL. When he went away on Thursday, then had you told him prior to that time that when he came in at 1:30, in the afternoon, he interfered with your nap?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you think you might have told him that on Wednesday or Tuesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't tell him until after I had that call.

Mr. BALL. When was the call?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On Wednesday.

Mr. BALL. And who called you on Wednesday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He called somebody, you know.

Mr. BALL. You mean the day that he called someone and spoke in a foreign language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. After that, you told him----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't like that.

Mr. BALL. That he interfered with your nap?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. I didn't like it, and the next day he fussed with somebody on the phone, I don't know whether it was his wife or who it was.

Mr. BALL. That was Thursday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. About 2 o'clock or 2:30 when he come home here and----

Mr. BALL. Did he go out again that day?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Stayed in all day?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Stayed in all day, and it was Friday he stayed in his room all day. Didn't eat. Ate what he had in his room. Stayed in his room all day long.

Mr. BALL. When did you next see him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Been--then Saturday, he started out and had his bag.

Mr. BALL. Started out with his luggage?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Saturday morning he started out with his bag and----

Mr. BALL. Which bag did he take?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Was it the duffelbag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Like you see the servicemen carrying?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I guess it was. I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. BALL. This was Saturday morning about what time?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. About 10 o'clock, or 9:30 and I thought he was going to move and I--"Oh--" I said, "You are going to move?"

And he said, "No; I am just going for the weekend."

Well, I said, "Well, I don't know." But he said, "And I want my room cleaned and clean sheets put on the bed."

And I said, "Well, I will after you move because you are going to move."

He said, "Why?"

I says, "Because I am not going to rent to you any more."

Mr. BALL. Not going to what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Not going to rent to you any more, He said, "Give me back my money." Now, $2.

I said, "Well, I don't have it."

So, he left Saturday morning and, in the meantime. I think his wife was going to have a baby----

Mr. BALL. How did you know that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I found--I read it in the papers.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, no; he didn't ever tell me. Didn't tell me anything.

Mr. BALL. You told him you weren't going to rent to him any more on that Saturday morning about 10 o'clock. At that time did he have his bag? Was he carrying a bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; going out with it again. Going out to Irving.

Mr. BALL. How did you know?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, said he was.

Mr. BALL. He told you he was going to Irving?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; said he was going to Irving.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was going to Irving for any purpose?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just said he was going to Irving. No; he didn't tell me anything.

Mr. BALL. Why did you tell him you wouldn't rent to him any more?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because I didn't like him.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't like his attitude. He was just kind of like this, you know, just big shot, you know, and I didn't have anything to say to him, and--but, I didn't like him. There was just something about him I didn't like or want him--just wasn't the kind of person I wanted. Just didn't want him around me.

Mr. BALL. When he left on Saturday morning do you know by what transportation he took?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't pay any attention.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop near your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right in front of the house.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him take the bus.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him wait for the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I just saw him go out the door. Didn't pay any attention. And when he left I said--oh, he was going to come back and get his things Saturday. He took it out and said, "Well, it is 2 dollars," and I--"Well, I don't have it, so, he went off."

Mr. BALL. Well, wait a minute. Did he say he would come back and get the things Saturday?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he didn't say a thing.

Mr. BALL. Now, wait a minute. Saturday morning you told him you wouldn't rent to him again. What did he say about getting his money back?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, he said, "Well, give me my money back and I will move now."

And I said, "I don't have it."

Mr. BALL. Then what did he say?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't say anything and went on out the door.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about whether he would come to get his clothes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; not a thing.

Mr. BALL. Did he come back Saturday night?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. When did he come back?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday morning.

Mr. BALL. And from Saturday morning until Monday morning you didn't see him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. What time Monday morning did he come back?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Between 8 and 9, 9 and 10. I mean.

Mr. BALL. When he came back did he have anything with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Have his bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't say a word to him. He--I didn't say a word to him.

Mr. BALL. When he came back did he have anything in his hand?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him leave?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did he take with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He had that bag.

Mr. BALL. What bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. The bag, you see, he had two.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. But, I never noticed it. I don't know what kind it was or anything.

Mr. BALL. When he left, he had one bag when he left?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. One bag.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether it was the duffelbag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I couldn't say for sure.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what color it was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; just navy blue. I don't know which one he carried, or what they were or what. I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether both bags were navy blue, or different colors?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. You know one was navy blue?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right.

Mr. BALL. When he left, did he say anything to you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Or did you say anything to him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. I said, "Good luck." You know, I thought to myself, "That's good riddance," and I looked in his room and it was all right, and nothing was disturbed.

Mr. BALL. Had he cleaned it up?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was dirty.

Mr. BALL. Did he leave anything around the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; somehow I saw a map. I believe he left that map.

Mr. BALL. What map?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. A map of Dallas where he could get around to get some places, jobs.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with that map?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Throwed it in the garbage.

Mr. BALL. Threw it away?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was it a map, kind of a map put out by the service stations?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; one of those kinds. I just threw it away and cleaned up the room. Just threw it away.

Mr. BALL. Did the map have any markings on it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You know--do you know what the markings were?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever see him again?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I thought. "Well, he is gone," and forgot it.

Mr. BALL. But, before you go into that, I notice you have been reading from some notes before you.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, because I forget what I have to say.

Mr. BALL. When did you make those notes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. What day did I make them?

Miss DOUTHIT. When Mr. Sorrels and I were talking about her going to Washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down on paper because she might forget something, and I said, "Mary, you put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she started making notes.

Mr. BALL. You have made the notes in the last week?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT. At my suggestion and Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes during the week he was there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. BALL. Your address, make sure that we have this. The address where you were living on the 7th of October was 621 Marsalis--North Marsalis, Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right. Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. And you are still living there, aren't you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the foreign language that you heard Oswald using over the telephone on this Wednesday afternoon, do you know what the language was?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with the Spanish language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I am not. Not familiar with any of them.

Mr. BALL. All you know it was not English?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. But, you can't tell what language?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Can you make a guess?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I have no idea. I do, because the girl is Spanish, but I don't know whether he called her or not.

Mr. BALL. What girl is Spanish?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I mean--his wife was Russian.

Mr. BALL. Russian.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Now, when did you see Oswald again?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I went down to the parade. Oh, when was the parade? The 22d of--the next--22d of February--when was the parade?

Mr. BALL. The 22d of November the President came to Dallas.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I first got off at Neiman's and I--the parade didn't come on, and I kept walking on up, and walked in front of Titche's over on that side there, and I saw the parade there. He passed--I saw the President, oh, I was happy I got to see him. And--so then I got on across and went over to the Athletic Club, and caught the bus.

Mr. BALL. What bus did you catch?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't remember whether it was the Marsalis or the Romana.

Mr. BALL. Both go by your house, do they? What was the last one?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. The Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. What was the second name?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Romana.

Mr. BALL. And both go west on Elm?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right--so, I got on the bus, and while it was awfully crowded there----

Mr. BALL. You mean crowded on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; outside.

Mr. BALL. Were there many people on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. How many people on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about 10.

Mr. BALL. And what was the location on Elm where you boarded this bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the Athletic Club.

Mr. BALL. What cross street is that, do you remember?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. St. Paul? You got on at St. Paul? St. Paul and Elm?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And the bus was going in what direction?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. West.

Mr. BALL. All right, now, tell me what happened?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And, after we got past Akard, at Murphy--I figured it out. Let's see. I don't know for sure. Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac. His sleeve was out here [indicating]. His shirt was undone.

Mr. BALL. You are indicating a sleeve of a shirt?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. It was unraveled?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and I didn't look at him. I didn't want to know I even seen him, and I just looked off, and then about that time the motorman said the President had been shot, and I sit--when I go to town I sit this way on the bus. The motorman is right there [indicating], and I sit right there so that I can get off.

Mr. BALL. You mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, one seat or two seats behind him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't--the motorman is here, and I sit across in the seat across the way.

Mr. BALL. Now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat you took?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I always did.

Mr. BALL. Would that be the first seat on the right-hand side?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. First seat on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. Side seat.

Mr. BALL. Oh, it is a side seat? Was that side seat so that you were facing the motorman?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. When Oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; but I saw that it was him.

Mr. BALL. How close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just in front of me. Just like this [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Just a matter of a foot or two?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, the motorman? I think--I don't know. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Where did he sit?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He sat about halfway back down.

Mr. BALL. On what side?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On the same side I was on.

Mr. BALL. Same side? Did you look at him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he look at you as he went by? Did he look at you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know. I didn't look at him. That is--I was just--he looked so bad in his face, and his face was so distorted.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a hat on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, what color shirt did he have on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He had a brown shirt.

Mr. BALL. And unraveled?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it is.

Mr. BALL. And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; all the buttons torn off.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on underneath that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Notice the color of his pants?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Around where?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the seam.

Mr. BALL. At the waist?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the waist, uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Was the shirt tucked beneath the belt in his pants, or outside the belt?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he had it in.

Mr. BALL. Had it tucked in?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was tucked in.

Mr. BALL. So, that the belt of the pants was outside the shirt?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say the motorman said something?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Motorman said, "Well, the President has been shot," and I say--so, and the woman over--we all got to talking about four of us sitting around talking, and Oswald was sitting back there, and one of them said, "Hope they don't shoot us," and I said, "I don't believe that--it is--I don't believe it. Somebody just said that."

And it was too crowded, you see, and Oswald had got off.

Mr. BALL. How far had he been on the bus before he got off? Until the time he got on until the time he got off?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. About three or four blocks.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything to the motorman when he got off?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. They say he did, but I don't remember him saying anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see the motorman give him a transfer?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention but I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean he--you believe he did? Did you remember seeing him get on or are you telling me something you read in the newspapers?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't remember. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention at that time as to whether he did, or did not get a transfer?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you look at him as he got off the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I sure didn't. I didn't want to know him.

Mr. BALL. Well, you think you got enough of a glimpse of him to be able to recognize him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. You think you might be mistaken?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. You didn't look very carefully, did you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I just glanced at him, and then looked the other way and I hoped he didn't see me.

Mr. BALL. Now, are there two exits from the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. The middle of the bus, and front of the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Which exit did he leave?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Front.

Mrs. BALL. By the motorman?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, by the motorman.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody else get off at that time when he got off?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, not then, but there was a lady sitting right across, she wanted to go to the train station.

Mr. BALL. To the what station?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Train station, and she was worried about trying to get off, you know, trying to get there, and then we were hearing her, and I said, "Well, why don't you walk over there. It's just a little ways." Because the crowd was so bad we still didn't know the President had been killed, and finally she got off, but I think it was--it was before--I mean after Oswald did.

Mr. BALL. Did she ask for a transfer?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; she had the man give her one, because she caught the bus before she got to the train station.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I saw her.

Mr. BALL. You saw her catch another bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. She got on when we did. She rode a block.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody get off when the lady got off? Anybody that was going to the train station?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Was there traffic? Was the traffic heavy?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off that around where the President was killed, shot, and we were the first car that come around there, and then all of us were talking about the man, and we were looking up to see where he was shot and looking--and then they had one man and taking him, already got him in jail, and we got--"Well, I am glad they found him."

Mr. BALL. You were looking up at where?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. At where the boy was shot.

Mr. BALL. You mean the Texas Book Depository?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh, because we were right four blocks from there, you see.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me the location of the bus with reference to a cross street on Elm where Oswald got off?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I can't, because they have changed that street, so, they have torn down things and I don't go to town very much now and so I don't----

Mr. BALL. Was it in the middle of the block, or at a regular bus stop?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, they said it was.

Mr. BALL. I want to know what you remember.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether it was a regular bus stop or not?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald get on at a regular bus stop?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any particular attention to him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anyone knocking on the door, and as a result, the motorman opened the front door?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to say whether Oswald got on at a regular bus stop, or at a point between blocks?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. And you are not able to tell us whether he got off at regular bus stops, or between?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, had the bus gone as far as Lamar Street, when Oswald got off?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes. No; I think before we got to Lamar Street.

Mr. BALL. How far?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well----

Mr. BALL. Close to Lamar?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, close.

Mr. BALL. How close?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. Within a half block, or block?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; within a block.

Mr. BALL. About a block from Lamar, you think?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. It was approaching Lamar, wasn't it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. When did you first notify the police that you believe you'd seen Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. When I got home, first thing I did I went next door and told them the President had been shot, and so she turned on the radio and I went in and called my son and said the President had been shot, and he said, "Why, he has got killed." Well, I turned on the radio--television--and we heard ambulances and going around and them, and so, I didn't pay any attention. I wanted to hear about the President and there was a little boy came in that room in the back and he turned it on, and we listened and hear about Mr. Tippen [sic] being shot, and it didn't dawn on me, and I said--told his name as Oswald. I don't--didn't mean anything to me, so, I wanted to hear about the President, only one I was interested in, so, he went on back to work and they kept talking about this boy Oswald and had on a brown shirt, and all of a sudden, well, I declare, I believe that this was this boy, and his name was Oswald--that is--give me his right name, you know, and so, about an hour my son came home, and I told him, and he immediately called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, and so, I went down the next night. He took me down, and I made a statement to them, what kind of--Secret Service man or something down there.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. At the police station.

Mr. BALL. Uh-huh. Now, did you ever see Oswald in a lineup?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Did they ever show you pictures?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; showed me pictures of him.

Mr. BALL. But didn't show you Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. Never did see Oswald after he was arrested?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Not after he got off the bus; no.

Mr. BALL. But, you looked at the pictures of Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Showed you the pictures of Oswald?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. The man down at the police station, he had a picture of him with a gun, and said, "Do you recognize him?"

And I said, "Yes; it is Oswald." That is the one that I remember him.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man who showed you the picture of the man with the gun?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I am so bad about names.

Mr. BALL. Was there one man or more than one man?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about a dozen.

Mr. BALL. Oh, a dozen men?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. There sure was a lot of them. Two Secret Service men, and two to do this, and oh, I had interviewed about 9 or 10 or 12, plenty of them.

Mr. BALL. Now, I have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it.

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it.

Mr. BALL. This is a shirt----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is it.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "that is it?"

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Because they brought it out to the house and showed it.

Mr. BALL. I know. What do you mean by "this is it?"

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, because I can recognize it.

Mr. BALL. Recognize it as what?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, sir; see there?

Mr. BALL. Yes. You tell me what do you see here? What permits you to recognize it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I recognize--first thing I notice the elbow is out and then I saw--when the man brought it out and let me see it?

Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about--I am showing you this shirt now, and you said, "That is it." You mean--What do you mean by "that is it"?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That is the one he had out there that day?

Mr. BALL. Who had it out there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Some Secret Service man.

Mr. BALL. He brought it out. Now, I am--you have seen this shirt then before?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. It was brought out by the Secret Service man and shown to you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen the shirt before that?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well----

Mr. BALL. Have you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he had it on, though.

Mr. BALL. Who had it on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had it on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oswald had it on.

Mr. BALL. Now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when he was on the bus? What is there about it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, let's see the front of it. Yes. See all this [indicating]? I remember that.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you see there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I saw the--no; not so much that. It was done after--that is the part I recognize more than anything.

Mr. BALL. You are pointing to a hole in the right elbow?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What about the color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I--What do you mean?

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he had it on?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Before he was shot? Yes; I remember it being brown.

Mr. BALL. You remember the shirt being brown.

Was it this color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; it was that color.

Mr. BALL. In other words, when you remember that you have seen something before----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. In order to convince me that you did see it before you've got to tell me what there is about it that is the same, you see. Now, you try to convince me, or tell me why it is that you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when you saw him on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I would say it was. That hole----

Mr. BALL. Mostly the hole in the right sleeve?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What about the color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I remember the color.

Mr. BALL. That is a similar color, isn't it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; same color.

Mr. BALL. Same color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. You think that is the shirt?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; it is the shirt.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was around your house?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the bus?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. I have two exhibits here. One Commission Exhibit 157. Exhibit 157, and Commission 156, both pants. Have you ever seen either one of those before?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Now, is that long pants?

Mr. BALL. Yes; this is 157.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that is not the ones he had on.

Mr. BALL. That is not?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was ragged up at the top.

Mr. BALL. This other pair of pants, 156, does that look like any of the pants he had on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. That must have been it, but seemed like it was ragged up at the top.

Mr. BALL. But, you think 156 may have been the pair of pants he had on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You think 157--don't pay any attention to the fact that it is cut up--does 157 look anything like the pants he had on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I don't----

Mr. BALL. You don't think so?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have no more questions to ask you now, Mrs. Bledsoe, but Mr. Jenner will ask you some questions.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. I will get up here close so you will hear me all right.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to go back to the day that he came to your home on the 7th of October?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You were out in your backyard?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And did he come back there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a bell on your house?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He knocked at the door.

Mr. JENNER. He knocked at the door and you heard him knock at the door?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I went around the front.

Mr. JENNER. And your home is all at one level?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. So, you walked through your house?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; I went through the yard and come around from the back to the front yard.

Mr. JENNER. And you saw a young man at the door?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. How was that young man dressed on that occasion?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't remember what he had on. Didn't pay any attention. He was clean and that's all you see, but I didn't know what color the pants were and what kind of shirt it was.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did he have a suit on or sportscoat, or just his shirt?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Just the shirt. It was hot weather. October.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall--did he have a tie on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The shirt, that was open at the front?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes, it wasn't those short shirts. I don't know what kind it was. I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. JENNER. And this was a Monday morning.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Monday afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Monday afternoon. Did he have a hat on?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he--did he have any luggage?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; had one bag, I don't know whether it was a duffel or what, but then he went on and got another one.

Mr. JENNER. Well, if you will permit me to stay with what he had when you first saw him----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You call on your recollection and tell me all you can tell me about the bag he had at that time, its size, its shape. In another connection, Mrs. Bledsoe, it is prior events that are important to us. If we can possibly find out or get as accurate a description as you can give us. Sit there relaxed and tell us what you remember about this bag, what size it was; what shape it was; whether it was hard; whether it was soft, what color it was.

Was it zippered? How was it fastened?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I don't know whether it was zippered or not. But seems to me like it was, though.

Mr. JENNER. Just start from the beginning and tell us what you remember about the bag that he had when you first saw him at the door.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, it was just a blue--like a canvas bag.

Mr. JENNER. Canvas?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And, I don't know whether it was zippered or not.

Mr. JENNER. You don't recall a zippered sort of bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't even look. It was about that long, I guess [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. You are indicating about 26 inches?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. About that long.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Then, he had some things on his back.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you mind if we stuck with the bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that's all.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it was 26 inches long and you think it was canvas, and you think it was blue in color?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was its shape? Was it a round sort of soft kind of bag or was it--did it have firm, stiff sides? Was it rectangular?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I couldn't say. Couldn't say. Didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection does serve you that it was not what we would call a suitcase?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; looked like an inexpensive bag of some kind.

Mr. JENNER. And your memory doesn't serve you that there was any sort of zipper thing, and you do seem to have a reasonably firm recollection that the color of it was blue?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have a handle on it?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When he picked it up----

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, that is----

Mr. JENNER. I was trying to get an idea, and well--I have a coat here, and using it for purposes of illustration, when he picked up the bag by the handles did the bag sag, or was it firm?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention. Didn't pay a bit of attention.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I notice from your testimony that he also had, on this occasion, at this time, in addition to the canvas bag, blue in color, he had some things over his arm, or over his shoulder?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On a coathanger.

Mr. JENNER. He had some articles of clothing?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. On coathangers.

Mr. JENNER. On coathangers?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And were those draped back over the shoulder or arm, or was he holding them by the hooks or hooks on the hangers?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think he had them on coathangers, just--I guess--I don't know--he was standing there. I don't have no idea.

Mr. JENNER. Just how he was carrying them, you are uncertain, but you are certain that he had articles of clothing on hangers?

Mr. BLEDSOE. On coathangers.

Mr. JENNER. Were--would they be wooden coathangers or the metal?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Metal ones.

Mr. JENNER. The type you get when you send clothes to the cleaners and they come back on these wire, metal hangers, what--was that the type?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I imagine. I couldn't tell. Now, I--no; I didn't pay any attention to him.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection serves you now that there were hangers, but you cannot recall whether they were the wire type or whether they were wooden?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. When he left, he just carried them off. I never did look at his clothes at all.

Mr. JENNER. You impress me as a lady that wouldn't be fussing around?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't care enough about it. All I wanted him to do was rent the room.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you had a discussion, and you rented the room to him for $7 for that week?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And he paid you then and there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh

Mr. JENNER. In cash?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; and I gave him a receipt on this book.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he then left your home?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about why he was leaving?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He went to the grocery store. No, no; first he went to get his other bag.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say then?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't say anything.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come to know that he went to get another bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He didn't say--he just went off.

Mr. JENNER. He just turned around without any leave taking?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; because he was not a man to talk, you know, what I got out of him, I had to get it out of him, because it was hard to--because I wanted to see what kind of a person he was, and it was hard to get, you know, to judge him in such a short time.

Mr. JENNER. When you completed the transaction about his renting the room and you got your $7, he paid it to you, so it was agreed he had the room for a week, did he go in and look at the room before he paid you the $7?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He was in the room, and I was at the door, and he looked at it and I said, $7, so, he took it and give me the money all in ones, $7.

Mr. JENNER. Seven $1 bills?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Seven $1 bills, and then he come over to my room and I--he wrote it down, and it is a good thing I had him write it, because I am kind of nervous, and I don't write so well, see, and he put it down on that, and that--and so, that is--this is in September, but anyway----

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. October----

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Miss DOUTHIT. Let me ask her this question about that bag, if it was puffed out, or approximately what shape it was, also, as to any further conversation that she had as to his background, how much she knows. If you are interested. You might not be.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Robert Davis of the attorney general's office of Texas has come in, and I am not seeking to press you, but we have some problems of the highest degree of exactitude that we can obtain. And at the risk of boring you, I would like to go back to that bag again.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, that; I didn't pay much attention to it.

Mr. JENNER. When you first saw him at the door at your front of your home, he had the bag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it resting on the porch, or was he standing before the door with bag in hand when you first saw him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I come around the house, you see, and I don't know. I didn't pay--I don't know, couldn't tell you whether he was carrying it or what, but he did have these things on his shoulder, on his hangers. It--maybe had it sitting down, I don't know. I guess he did. I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. JENNER. And at that point you were asking why he was there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; he asked me if I had a room for rent.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And I said, "Yes," and I thought, "Well, are you married?" And he said, "Yes," and----

Mr. JENNER. You asked?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You inquired of him as to his history?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you inquire of him, and what did he say?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I wanted to find out something about him, and he said, "Well, I just want the room for a week or two, because I am going to get a job and then I will have my wife here."

Mr. JENNER. He told you at that time and informed you that he was unemployed?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he would be seeking work?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he said that he was going to bring his wife?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And--when and if he obtained employment?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. And so, that give me a lead, something to talk about, and I said, "Well, what kind of work do you do?

"Oh, I do electronics," he said, and I said, "Well, there is some good jobs because you are young, and you can get a good job a young man like you."

And then went on. Then something about him being in the Marines, and I said, "Well, that is wonderful. My son was in the Navy."

And talking about him, you know, just getting to know him, and--but, "here is a picture of my wife, and picture of the girl, and the baby."

And I said, "Oh, she has got a baby, hasn't she?"

And he said, "Yes."

And everything he said, I had to pull it out of him to talk about something for him to say what it was.

Mr. JENNER. But, he volunteered the picture of his wife and child?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; he did that. Showed me that picture.

Mr. JENNER. Was that an ordinary snapshot picture?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Uh-huh. It was in his billfold.

Mr. JENNER. Took it out of his billfold?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, sir; it was in the billfold. Just showed it in the billfold.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I have a billfold here. Was it this type?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No; it was something else. Don't seem like it was like that. Seemed like it opened this other way, I----

Mr. JENNER. This?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I think it was like that.

Mr. JENNER. Did he carry it in his trouser pocket, coat pocket?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I didn't pay any attention where he had it.

Mr. JENNER. What other inquiries did you make of him to become better acquainted and find out about him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. He said he had been in the Marines and I thought that was a pretty good recommendation, and I said, "Well, you won't have any trouble at all getting any job."

And so, the next morning I was helping him looking for a job.

Mr. JENNER. Now, pardon me, if you will just stick to while you're at the door now.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well----

Mr. JENNER. And----

Miss DOUTHIT. Just one interruption, but find out if this conversation took place at the door, or after he got in the room.

They are in this room, you see.

Mr. JENNER. You went inside the house almost immediately?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. When he first made an inquiry?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you took him to show him the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your inquiries were--with respect to his history were in the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And he showed you the picture while you were in the room?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it, am I correct, when you went into the room he had that bag, and he had the articles of clothing?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And had them with him, didn't leave them on the porch?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did he do with the bag when he entered the room? Did he put it down on the floor?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Didn't pay any attention.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't pay any attention? What did he do with the articles of clothing on the hangers?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. I wasn't paying any attention to it. I guess he hung them up. Just a young boy, and I was trying to see if he was clean, and if he was very intelligent, and he was going to go to work, so, I didn't have too much to work on. Told me he had a nice wife, so, I didn't have anything to say.

Mr. JENNER. When your son was in the Navy, did he have a duffelbag?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No. Now, it was so long ago--it was--I don't know whether he did. I don't think he did. He didn't. He was an instructor at TI.

Mr. JENNER. Was he stationed here in Dallas?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, TI. Treasure Island.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, Treasure Island. How long did this discussion with him in the room take?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, I guess 10 minutes because those--he was--you know, old people, they want to get you out of the way. They don't want to listen to you, but I wanted to find out, so, I think I maybe asked him too many questions, but I wanted him to say something to me and he said something about his--I said, "Do you have a family here," and he said, "Yes, my family lives here."

Well, he wouldn't say his mother or anything, and I didn't ask him everything.

Miss DOUTHIT. Well----

Mr. JENNER. All right.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice anything in addition to the hangers with respect to these clothes? Were the articles of clothing enclosed in any kind of a bag or paper, plastic, or otherwise?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No, just on hangers.

Mr. JENNER. Just on hangers.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. But I didn't pay any attention to what kind of--I think maybe a coat. I don't know what it was, a sweater or something.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see how many articles of clothing were there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Oh, about four.

Mr. JENNER. And none of them was enclosed in any kind of a container, plastic or otherwise?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he pleasant during all of the conversation you had with him?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Was the first day. Next day didn't talk any more. I didn't talk to him.

Mr. JENNER. As soon as he--recalling to mind that he paid you the $7.

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any further conversation take place after he paid you the $7?

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