Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Warren Commission (06 of 26): Hearings Vol. VI (of 15) (part 3 of 5)

Miss BOWRON. At the--I couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. Miss Henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the I.V.'s--the intravenous bottles up.

Mr. SPECTER. And were there any other nurses present at that time when the President arrived in the trauma area?

Miss BOWRON. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any doctors present besides Dr. Carrico?

Miss BOWRON. I didn't notice anybody--there may have been.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you observe Dr. Carrico take, if any?

Miss BOWRON. We tried to start an I.V. cutdown and I don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and Miss Henchliffe and I cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. We opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were you present in the emergency room No. 1?

Miss BOWRON. I was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. I went--ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. By that time they had decided that he was dead, they said.

And then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and Miss Henchliffe gave them to one of the Secret Service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides the two of you?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; there was an orderly called David Sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when Mrs. Kennedy went in. And then Mrs. Kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him at any time after that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir--only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What doctors were present during the time he was being treated?

Miss BOWRON. Dr. Carrico and--who else was there--there were so many.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any of the names?

Miss BOWRON. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned?

Miss BOWRON. Miss Standridge, Jeanette Standridge came in, Mrs. Nelson--the supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other nurses present there?

Miss BOWRON. Not that I could say, sir--I don't know the name of any.

Mr. SPECTER. While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?

Miss BOWRON. No; I didn't, until afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. Until after what?

Miss BOWRON. Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you personally participate in removing President Kennedy's body from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir--I didn't touch him. We held him with the sheet.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room No. 1 on?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. That's the stretcher you took out there for him?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of President Kennedy?

Miss BOWRON. The sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the President on. When we came back after all the work had been done on him--so that Mrs. Kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. Those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there?

Miss BOWRON. They were all gathered up and put into a linen scape.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you gather them up yourself?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All of them?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; with the help of Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And did the two of you put them in the linen hamper?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I put them in the linen hamper myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the stretcher then?

Miss BOWRON. The stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room No. 2, which was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room No. 2?

Miss BOWRON. Not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. And where was the stretcher when you last saw it?

Miss BOWRON. Being wheeled across into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which I will ask the Court Reporter to mark Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3 and 4.

(Instruments referred to marked by the Reporter as Bowron Exhibit Nos. 2, 3, and 4, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day?

Miss BOWRON. They are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story.

Mr. SPECTER. What newspapers did they appear in?

Miss BOWRON. I believe this is the "Observer".

Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to BX Number 2 and what city is that published in?

Miss BOWRON. London.

Mr. SPECTER. And BX Number 3 came from where?

Miss BOWRON. I think that this was "The Mail--The Daily Mail".

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in what city?

Miss BOWRON. It appears in all cities. It is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. In England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes; it is prepared in England.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Well, this I think was "The Mirror" I think.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is The Mirror published in?

Miss BOWRON. That is a national newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Appearing in England?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in the events of the day at Parkland?

Miss BOWRON. I believe there was one--I think it was an Australian paper and Mrs. Nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as I think--as this one.

Mr. SPECTER. BX-4?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two English reporters in Dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and I said I couldn't tell them anything other than I was from England, gave them my home address, and the fact that I had been present and I was the one who went out to the car and brought the President in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that I told them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you give them any information beyond that?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some English reporters calling on my parents at home, and I am the only child and my mother worries, so I called home the next--that night and told my parents that I had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that--except that I had been on duty and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom?

Miss BOWRON. I don't really know--he was an FBI agent.

Mr. SPECTER. And when was that?

Miss BOWRON. It was a week or two, I think, after the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did he ask you and what did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. He asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell him?

Miss BOWRON. The same as I told you.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"?

Miss BOWRON. Mrs. Nelson was there and Miss Henchliffe and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any other representatives of the Federal Government prior to today?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did I discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that I would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the Court Reporter?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today?

Miss BOWRON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. Yes. When we were doing a cutdown on the President's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it--you know, undid it and it was slipping down and I just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then I realized, and ran out to give it to one of the Secret Service men or anybody I could find and found this Mr. Wright.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the same day?

Miss BOWRON. Yes--he had only just gone through O.B.--I was just a few feet behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the Commission?

Miss BOWRON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Miss Bowron.

Miss BOWRON. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you a lot.

Miss BOWRON. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET M. HENCHLIFFE

The testimony of Margaret M. Henchliffe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 21, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Miss Henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has not written to you because, we have learned from Mrs. Doris Nelson in the deposition taken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the Executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony.

Permit me to make those documents available to you.

(Handed instruments to the Witness Henchliffe.)

Let me say that since yesterday I have contacted Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel, in Washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which I received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question I have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the 3 days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It is all right with me.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this Commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Margaret M. Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am a nurse, registered nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And where are you employed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you employed on November 22, 1963?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you notified on that date that the President was on his way to the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I didn't know it at the time until later.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first learn about it, if at all?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I found out who it was when I went out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of day was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well. I guess it was about 2 minutes after he came in.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at some place in the hospital?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I was working with him in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Do what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in fact, I helped wheel him on into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And, where was he when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was between trauma rooms 1 and 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. At the emergency entrance--no. It was after he came into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. He came into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room No. 1?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Let me see, I think Dr. Carrico was there--he was there very shortly after--afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. He was there when you arrived? Or arrived shortly after you did?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, actually I went in ahead of the cart with him and I was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, Dr. Carrico came in.

Mr. SPECTER. And what other doctors arrived, if any?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, gee. Let's see--there was Dr. Baxter, Dr. Perry, and you want all of them that were in the room?

Mr. SPECTER. If you can remember them.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Dr. Kemp Clark, Dr. Jenkins, Dr. Peters, Dr. Crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that I don't know which--who it was.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe to be the President's condition when you first saw him?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound anywhere on his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when I saw him at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. When I first saw him--except his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any wound on any other part of his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; in the neck.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe it, please?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little hole in the middle of his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. About how big a hole was it?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. About as big around as the end of my little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any experience with bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did that appear to you to be?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An entrance bullet hole--it looked to me like.

Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been an exit bullet hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I have never seen an exit bullet hole--I don't remember seeing one that looked like that.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the characteristics of the hole?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was just a little round--just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking--jagged a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What experience have you had in observing bullet holes, Miss Henchliffe?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there--I don't know how many a year.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. In what?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room is all.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done to the President after he arrived at the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present all the time he was in the emergency room?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Except when I left out to get blood.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you gone?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Oh, about 3 minutes or so--3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when he was pronounced dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with the President's body after he was pronounced to be dead?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. He was placed in the coffin.

Mr. SPECTER. What had he been on up until that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. An emergency room cart.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that also described as a stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. A stretcher--yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what this stretcher looked like?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, how do you describe a stretcher--it's just a long----

Mr. SPECTER. Made of metal?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes; it's made of metal.

Mr. SPECTER. On roller wheels?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Just some sheets and I guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up.

Mr. SPECTER. That you picked up--where were they placed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. We placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room.

Mr. SPECTER. How many sheets were there on the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I am really not sure--there was probably about two or three.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what position were they all on the stretcher after President Kennedy's body was removed?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with those sheets?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. They were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my knowledge, the orderly.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was he?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. David Sanders--is that his name?

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the stretcher?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. It was rolled into the room across the hall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually see the stretcher that President Kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And into which room was it rolled?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. What was that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Emergency room No. 2?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, when it was rolled into emergency room 2, were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I believe they were off.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the stretcher that Mr. Kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure of that?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I am positive of that.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the Commission?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir; I don't think of anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I talk to you about the purpose of the Commission and the same questions that I have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the Court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information at that time?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. To the best of my ability.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Okay.

(At this point the witness, Henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.)

(In approximately 3 minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you a couple of questions more, Miss Henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go.

Was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood at all in that area?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that I have seen.

Mr. SPECTER. If there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as 2,000 feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, from some information I received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. But you have a small exit wound--you could have a small exit wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Under what circumstances?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. As you described--a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been at Parkland as a nurse?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, I have had emergency room experience for about 5 years here and a couple of years at Baylor Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the total sum of your experience?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. In the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Well, in the operating room here.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you had operating room experience here?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been a registered nurse altogether?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. 12 years--almost 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. I don't remember who I was talking to now. I was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen.

Mr. SPECTER. That it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add?

Miss HENCHLIFFE. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

Miss HENCHLIFFE. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DORIS MAE NELSON

The testimony of Doris Mae Nelson was taken on March 20, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, this is Miss Oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NELSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Doris Nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by President Kennedy and Governor Connally at Parkland Memorial Hospital on November 22, 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. NELSON. Doris Mae Nelson. Do you want my maiden name?

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, yes; what is your maiden name?

Mrs. NELSON. Morris, M-o-r-r-i-s [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the 88th Congress and the Executive order which established the President's Commission?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I read it yesterday.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the President's Commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the Commission staff?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had 3 days' notice?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Therefore waiving the right which you have, a 3 days' notice under the resolution?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession?

Mrs. NELSON. I am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long have you been so occupied?

Mrs. NELSON. A year and 6 months as supervisor of the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties in a general way on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. NELSON. I was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. What notification, if any, did you receive on that date concerning injuries to President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. I received a phone call approximately 3 to 5 minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What action after that did you take in preparing for the President's arrival?

Mrs. NELSON. I immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room No. 1, notified him of the incident, and asked the--also told the head nurse that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

Then, I went into trauma room 2, after the head nurse had told me that trauma room 1 was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured?

Mrs. NELSON. No; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at Parkland Memorial Hospital thereafter?

Mrs. NELSON. As I walked out of trauma room No. 2 I heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later Governor Connally, who at that time I did not know who it was but recognized him as not being the President, arrived and I directed them into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one stretcher taken out?

Mrs. NELSON. I do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because I was not out at that area.

Mr. SPECTER. Did another stretcher come into the area?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; immediately behind the Governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was President Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you able to identify President Kennedy?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, I could look and see him and tell that it was him.

Mr. SPECTER. What part did you see?

Mrs. NELSON. The--mainly his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any coat covering his face?

Mrs. NELSON. There was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and Mrs. Kennedy--do you want me to tell about Mrs. Kennedy and the flowers?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; continue. Yes; in answering the questions, Mrs. Nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question--I hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes.

Mrs. NELSON. Mrs. Kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the President and her hat was also lying on top of the President as he was brought into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he then taken?

Mrs. NELSON. He was immediately taken into trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way?

Mrs. NELSON. Dr. Carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and Dr. Perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, Dr. Baxter, associate professor of surgery, Dr. Kemp Clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; Dr. Bashour--

Mr. SPECTER. Spell, please.

Mrs. NELSON. B-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the Department of Cardiology, and several other doctors who I cannot recall all the names at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present inside of the emergency room where President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. When what?

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time?

Mrs. NELSON. On one occasion I went into the room and this was mainly to ask Mrs. Kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the President, and I was told by the Secret Service agent that she may stay in there if she wished.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room?

Mrs. NELSON. The only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. Then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time President Kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. It was taken out when they wheeled it in.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any sheets on the stretcher that President Kennedy was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2 in order to get the stretcher out of the room.

Mr. SPECTER. What personnel stripped the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. Margaret Henchliffe, H-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and Diana Bowron, D-i-a-n-a B-o-w-r-o-n [spelling].

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually observe Diana Bowron or Margaret Henchliffe strip the stretcher?

Mrs. NELSON. No; I did not. This was the report that I received afterwards.

Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you receive that report?

Mrs. NELSON. From these two nurses.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which President Kennedy was taken?

Mrs. NELSON. No, I saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room 1 to trauma room 2, because I was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the Secret Service Police.

Mr. SPECTER. But it was actually in trauma room 1?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As it was being wheeled out to trauma room 2 and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all----

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Rolled up on it in any way at all?

Mrs. NELSON. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see where the stretcher was then placed?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, it was put into trauma room 2.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was President Kennedy's body at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. It was in--it had been placed in a casket in trauma room 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what?

Mrs. NELSON. It was on a form of roller-type table.

Mr. SPECTER. And did--do you know what President Kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, one of the nurses, Miss Hutton, came out and said that the President was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so I sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and I did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress.

Mr. SPECTER. Which nurse explained that to you?

Mrs. NELSON. Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the President's body?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to Miss Bowron and Miss Henchliffe.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is that linen hamper located?

Mrs. NELSON. That linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area.

Mr. SPECTER. And what floor is that on?

Mrs. NELSON. On the ground floor of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with Governor Connally?

Mrs. NELSON. Governor Connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately 15 to 20 minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him inside trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room No. 2?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes, I saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did he get upstairs to the operating room?

Mrs. NELSON. On a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. Miss Standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. I could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me.

Mr. SPECTER. How far could you see her?

Mrs. NELSON. Oh, approximately 30 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. And who is Miss Standridge?

Mrs. NELSON. Head nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her first name?

Mrs. NELSON. Jeanette.

Mr. SPECTER. You say the stretcher was carried?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, it was wheeled.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does the stretcher look like that Governor Connally was on?

Mrs. NELSON. Well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. It has an elevation between--on the sides, so that the--I don't know how to explain exactly.

Mr. SPECTER. A bumper-type effect?

Mrs. NELSON. It has a bumper on the side.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the same general description of a stretcher that President Kennedy was brought in on?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they were the same type.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson, I'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "Activities of Doris Nelson, R.N., beginning 12 noon, Friday, November 22, 1963," after I ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition.

(Reporter marked the instrument referred to as Nelson Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. SPECTER. Is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to Mr. Jack Price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on November 22, 1963, as they pertain to this matter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; they are.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did I ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for providing this deposition to us.

Mrs. NELSON. You are quite welcome.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Mr. Specter and the witness, Mrs. Doris Nelson.)

Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record, just a minute.

Mrs. Nelson, I will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement?

Mrs. NELSON. (Signed statement referred to.)

Mr. SPECTER. And are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition?

Mrs. NELSON. Yes; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JACK PRICE

The testimony of Charles Jack Price was taken at 4:50 p.m., on March 25, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that C. Jack Price is present to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which is concerned with the medical care rendered at Parkland Memorial Hospital to President John F. Kennedy and to Governor John B. Connally.

Authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of Mr. Price and he has had access to the copy of the Executive order creating the President's Commission----

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And the rules relating to the taking of depositions of witnesses. Is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken without having the 3-day waiting period between the request and the taking of the deposition?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you stand up, Mr. Price, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the President's Commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRICE. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. PRICE. Charles Jack Price.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your official title here?

Mr. PRICE. Administrator, Dallas County Hospital district, comprised of Parkland Memorial Hospital and Woodlawn Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Price, in connection with your duties at Parkland Memorial Hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who participated in the care and treatment of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, or at least those who were principally concerned with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that treatment?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; through Dr. Kemp Clark, who is chairman of our medical records committee.

Mr. SPECTER. And where have those records been kept after submission through Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. PRICE. The records were brought directly to my office. In fact, some of the records were written in my office and since that time have been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk drawer.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which has heretofore been marked as "Commission Exhibit No. 392," and I ask you if this constitutes all of the records of the doctors who examined and treated President Kennedy and Governor Connally which are in your possession, that is all the records which were made by the examining doctors?

Mr. PRICE. (Examining instrument referred to.) Do you want my comments as I go through this or do you want me to look through it and say "Yes," or "No"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I would like to just be sure for the record that those are all of the records. You and I went through them the other day informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, which I will put on the deposition record here.

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps, before going to Commission Exhibit No. 392, permit me to have this photostatic copy marked Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 2.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 2, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent by Dr. Kemp Clark to Dr. Burkley, the President's private physician?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. And with that, the summary of all the treatments performed at Parkland, which was prepared by Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And below that, another summary sheet which bears the corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the President arrived at the emergency room at exactly 12:38 p.m., with 12:43 scratched out?

Mr. PRICE. That's correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask the reporter to mark as Mr. Price's Exhibit No. 3, an affidavit of Ulah McCoy, and I'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 3, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And I will ask her to mark as Mr. Price Exhibit No. 4 an affidavit of Doris Nelson and I'll ask you if that is a copy of a report in your possession?

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 4, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Your next report is one from Dr. M. T. Jenkins?

Mr. PRICE. Professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a copy of the document which you are looking at here?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. As part of Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. That's right, and my next one is the statement of Dr. W. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of which appears in this group of papers as Exhibit No. 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is. The next one that I have is the statement of Dr. Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the original of a copy of a statement which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; the statement of Dr. Charles W. Baxter.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the original of a copy which appears in Exhibit 392?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; that's the statement of Dr. Carrico.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this the copy of the original of Dr. Carrico's statement?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is; and this is Dr. McClelland's statement.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be Dr. McClelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your file?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your next report?

Mr. PRICE. My next report is Dr. Bashour's report.

Mr. SPECTER. And I show you a sheet in the group of papers marked Exhibit 392, and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original in your file?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is next?

Mr. PRICE. My next one is the summary of Dr. Ronald C. Jones.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the original of the statement by Dr. Ronald Jones which is in your file?

Mr. PRICE. May I see it, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Handed instrument referred to to the witness.)

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that constitute all of the original records concerning the treatment of President John F. Kennedy in your file?

Mr. PRICE. With one exception--there is in the file that I have of Governor Connally the original of the transcript of "Registration of patients," which I furnished you a photostat of, our number being 01811.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this a photostatic copy of that registration of patients?

Mr. PRICE. It is; and I think I reviewed it with you at the time I gave this to you--the transverse of patients No. 2 and No. 5.

Mr. SPECTER. No. 5 is marked John Connally and No. 2 is John F. Kennedy, and how should that have been marked?

Mr. PRICE. The first patient in the hospital was Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. So, he should have been No. 2?

Mr. PRICE. So, he should have been No. 2 as shown on the transcript.

Mr. SPECTER. And the President should have been noted as No. 5?

Mr. PRICE. The President should have been noted as No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

Mr. PRICE. The simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that I gave you of the arrival there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, turn if you will, to the records on Governor Connally and I will ask you if as part of Commission Exhibit 392, we have photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the operation performed by Dr. Shaw.

Mr. PRICE. I have the original of that but this is the complete medical charts that I have here.

Mr. SPECTER. As to this report alone, do you have the original in that record?

Mr. PRICE. Here it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this an exact photocopy of the original report prepared by Dr. Robert Shaw, the original of which appears in your record on Governor Connally?

Mr. PRICE. It is.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory?

Mr. PRICE. There has been since this photostat was made and forwarded to you--Dr. Gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some pencil corrections, and I will be glad to have the original photostated or Xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like?

Mr. SPECTER. That would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to read those changes into our record here. However, let's pursue the line of getting a Xerox copy.

Now, turning to the report of Dr. Shires, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of Dr. Shires' report?

Mr. PRICE. It is; it is a correct copy.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you a large group of papers which I am going to ask the reporter to mark Mr. Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9.

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Price Exhibits Nos. 6, 7, 8, and 9, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a group of papers, and as they are being marked, if you would take a look at them. Price Exhibit No. 6--I'll ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by various members of your staff, concerning the events of November 22, and November 24.

Mr. PRICE. Do you want these individually or as a group?

Mr. SPECTER. If you would identify the contents of the statement by the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. Exhibit 6 is what?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 6 is a Xerox copy of the floor plan of the emergency area. This is correct.

The Exhibit No. 7, the statement is unsigned, but this is the Xerox copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, Mr. Steve Landregan.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is his position with the hospital?

Mr. PRICE. He is assistant administrator.

Mr. SPECTER. In charge of press relations among other things?

Mr. PRICE. In charge of press relations among other things.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 8?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 8 is a Xerox copy of Peter Geilich's statement to me. Mr. Geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment over at the Woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our outpatient clinic.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 9?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 9 is a summary of the activities of Robert Dutton, Bob Dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently our evening administrator.

(Instruments marked as Price Exhibits Nos. 10 through 32 at this time, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 10 is what?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 10 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Carol Reddick, who is administrative aide.

Exhibit No. 11 is a summary of activities of Mrs. Elizabeth L. Wright, our director of nursing service.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Exhibit No. 12?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 12 is a summary of the activities of Diana Bowron, who is an emergency room nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 13?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 13 is a summary of the activities of Sallie Lennon.

Mr. SPECTER. What is her position?

Mr. PRICE. She is a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Price Exhibit No. 14.

Mr. PRICE. This is a statement of the activities of C. Watkins, who is an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And I hand you Price Exhibit No. 15

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 15 is a report of the activities of Faye Dean Shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 16?

Mr. PRICE. This is the activities of Era Lumpkin, an aide in the emergency area.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 17?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 17 is a report on the activities of Jean Tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 18.

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 18 is the activities of Frances Scott, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit No. 19?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 19 is the activities of Willie Haywood, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 20.

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of the activities of Bertha L. Lozano, who is a registered nurse in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Price Exhibit No. 21?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 21 is a summary of the activities of Pat Hutton, who is an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. I'll hand you Price Exhibit No. 22.

Mr. PRICE. I'm sorry, I said Hutton was an aide. She's an R.N.--in registration--a nurse.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Exhibit No. 22?

Mr. PRICE. It is a summary of the activities of Shirley Randall, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 23?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Rosa M. Majors, an aide in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 24?

Mr. PRICE. Price Exhibit 24 is a summary of the activities of Jill Pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 25?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of David Sanders, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 26?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit 26 is a summary of the activities of Tommy Dunn, who is an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 27?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Joe Richards, an orderly in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 28?

Mr. PRICE. Exhibit No. 28 is a statement of the activities of Jeanette Standridge, an R.N. in the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 29?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of O. P. Wright, who is the personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports from the individual guards under his supervision.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 30?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Margaret Henchliffe, who is assigned to the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 31?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Doris Nelson, who is the emergency room supervisor.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit No. 32?

Mr. PRICE. A summary of the activities of Robert G. Holcomb, who is assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional services of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. What is Price Exhibit No. 33?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my personal impressions of the events that transpired on November 24.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is Price Exhibit 34?

Mr. PRICE. This is a summary of my activities at the office Saturday and Sunday, the 23d and 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those all of the summaries of those who made reports to you?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; they are. These are primarily the summaries of individuals who were involved in the care of our late President, in the care of Governor Connally, and in the care of Oswald, who were requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you Price Exhibit No. 35 and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the report of Dr. Charles Gregory, after it was altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record?

Mr. PRICE. Well, if I may change this terminology?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

Mr. PRICE. This is a copy of Dr. Charles Gregory's records as it appears in Governor Connally's charts, which he corrected prior to signing the transcript. What I was trying to say, or wanted to make clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and I wanted to be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when what Dr. Gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed at the time he read it and signed it.

Mr. SPECTER. I understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription.

Mr. PRICE. That's right. This is correct. Your phraseology is much better than mine.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Price.

Mr. PRICE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That's all. I wanted to put all of these in the record, Jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate custodian of the records.

Mr. PRICE. Well, I wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the record had been altered here.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I understand that. I think you are absolutely right on that. Thank you.

Mr. PRICE. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM O. COUCH

The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, sir?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. COUCH. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please.

Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent you?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the deposition--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.

Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. Couch, where do you live?

Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And how old are you?

Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five.

Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through high school?

Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.

Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology degree, to become a minister?

Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or not, but I will be ordained.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Any family at all?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday.

Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume your wife and baby are doing well?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college?

Mr. COUCH. Social science.

Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school part time----

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957?

Mr. COUCH. I went to college.

Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961?

Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960.

Mr. BELIN. January 1960?

Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school here.

Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and H-e-r-n-d-o-n.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of college other than those?

Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September 1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in Theology, you stopped working?

Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from college----

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see.

Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.

Mr. BELIN. I see.

Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of President Kennedy to Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did that day?

Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity?

Mr. COUCH. As a photographer.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?

Mr. COUCH. Moving only.

Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?

Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade?

Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward downtown Dallas--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar Springs. I'm not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets you went on?

Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on Main at the City Hall.

Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where?

Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to Houston?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember offhand?

Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on Main about how fast the motorcade was going?

Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you remember who was riding in the car with you?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr. Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I don't know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?

Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way you were sitting in the back?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on the seat.

Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the top of the back seat?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back.

Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left?

Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you remember about how fast you were going?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving fairly fast.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the motorcade, that you remember?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people?

Mr. COUCH. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?

Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel.

Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions. As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston. As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be; sometimes they wouldn't.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you described as a----

Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first time we heard it--the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise?

Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?

Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.

Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further on you heard the first shot--the first noise?

Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say?

Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle. Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60 feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north onto Houston?

Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.

Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time?

Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"

And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window.

I saw no one in that window--just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Mr. BELIN. In what building was that?

Mr. COUCH. This was the Texas Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that time?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't know at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor--or----

Mr. COUCH. It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So, you have to recount.

Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but----

Mr. BELIN. You just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or seventh floor?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And when you say, "the far right"----

Mr. COUCH. That would be the far east.

Mr. BELIN. The far east of what side of the building?

Mr. COUCH. The south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. COUCH. Yes, I'd say you could. Uh--if a person was just standing on the--as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any person pulling the rifle?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what?

Mr. COUCH. It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open, I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open--but that was an impression.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else in the window that you remember--any boxes or anything like that?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't notice anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people in any other windows in the building?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; I recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one--it looked like a Negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the windows up above him.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building?

Mr. COUCH. No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson say. Did anyone else say anything in the car?

Mr. COUCH. No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And--uh--you can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn.

And then I took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. COUCH. Not of the south side at that moment.

After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down Elm, uh--we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the--I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at the very bottom of Elm Street----

Mr. BELIN. Is that what they call the triple-underpass?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

And--uh--I think, as I recall, right after we'd made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out.

And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. COUCH. No--uh----

Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there?

Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.

Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?

Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify someone.

Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a minute and a half.

Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures?

Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing south--because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that little sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south?

Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we--I think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, I can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school age--and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving.

Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository Building is concerned?

Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons--they'd set up a roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a 2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall.

Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall?

Mr. COUCH. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade--was that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--[spelling] L-'-H-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said, "You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and I'm going to go back--I'm going to follow the President."

Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the--I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr. Couch?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was that?

Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood?

Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.

Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.

Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not?

Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it--that is, watching it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it.

Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction.

Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the President.

Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?

Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the expressway?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15 feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?

Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for something. We thought there would be something else, but----

Mr. BELIN. There was nothing?

Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this A. J.----?

Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe.

Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along with the phonetic sound.

Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository?

Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures.

Mr. BELIN. He did not take any?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination?

Dr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine.

Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine?

Mr. COUCH. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before any of this?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did anyone ever tell you that?

Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall; but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD----

Mr. BELIN. TV?

Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments, I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minutes--coming around the side of the building, coming around the east side going south, I presume.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he actually saw this, or is this just hearsay?

Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you have not related here?

Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No.

Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted about this--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right.

Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to the time sequence--that you heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as sometimes happens?

Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time; even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close--and that's a long time.

Mr. BELIN. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of time between shots?

Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but it could be from 3 to 5.

Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been a difference?

Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were relatively the same.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the testimony that you have just given?

Mr. COUCH. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to relate the story to me?

Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we began.

Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the deposition--is that correct?

Mr. COUCH. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked about--is that right?

Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down here. We appreciate it very much.

Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question, but I had better ask it again.

When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you see at first?

Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it.

Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time you saw it being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45° angle westward--which would be pointing down Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there?

Mr. COUCH. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45° angle" would that be up or down, or are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and south?

Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline--from a horizontal position.

Mr. BELIN. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45° angle downward pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction?

Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building, I couldn't tell. It was not--it did not appear to me that it was sticking straight out the window, so to speak.

Mr. BELIN. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun?

Mr. COUCH. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that on the record.

TESTIMONY OF TOM C. DILLARD

The testimony of Tom C. Dillard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. State your name.

Mr. DILLARD. Tom C. Dillard.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please?

Mr. DILLARD (Complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DILLARD. I do.

Mr. BALL. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am staff counsel for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You have already been requested to be present have you not----

Mr. DILLARD. By letter; yes.

Mr. BALL. By letter which you received last week?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. DILLARD. I am a photographer.

Mr. BALL. I might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. DILLARD. I understand. My occupation is journalist; I am chief photographer of the Dallas Morning News, do some aviation writing but my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, I do outside work for the paper on photographic work.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. DILLARD. I'm 49.

Mr. BALL. What has been your general education?

Mr. DILLARD. High school, very few college courses.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. DILLARD. High school and very few college courses.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. DILLARD. I didn't go to school. I graduated Fort Worth, from the old Central High School, went to the Officer Candidate School in the Military and Air University.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the paper?

Mr. DILLARD. The Dallas News since 1947 and I was with the Star Telegram, went to work in 1929.

Mr. BALL. Have you been a photographer for the papers all these years?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, yes; of course, the first years, when I was started at the age of 15, I was a copy boy and did various reporting and whatever we could do on the paper. I was 15 when I started.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, you were in the motorcade who followed President Kennedy, weren't you?

Mr. DILLARD. That is correct. I understand our car was about number six in the line.

Mr. BALL. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. DILLARD. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And then you rode in the motorcade from Love Field into Dallas?

Mr. DILLARD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Who was in your car?

Mr. DILLARD. I remember Jim Underwood, he's an announcer for KRLD-TV and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and Bob Jackson of the Times-Herald, cameraman; and Couch with our TV station, Channel 8, and did you have information his name is Couch?

Mr. BALL. That's right; and the man that drove----

Mr. DILLARD. Channel 5--Darnell, I think his name is, and the driver of the car which I don't believe I remember his name. It was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. BALL. Your car was about sixth, was it?

Mr. DILLARD. I believe.

Mr. BALL. From the President's car?

Mr. DILLARD. From the President's car. We lost our position out at the airport. I understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer. We were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably know, normally a truck precedes the President on these things and certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck. In this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that I was in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature.

Mr. BALL. As you turned from Main Street onto Houston, was the President's car in sight at that time?

Mr. DILLARD. No; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, I could only distinguish the President's car on very few occasions in high rises in the ground, when we got on hills. It was difficult because the people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which pretty well covered the President's car for me. We had a very, very poor view of the President's car at any time from the time the parade started.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not the President's car had made the turn off Houston Street when your car turned north on Houston?

Mr. DILLARD. It had.

Mr. BALL. It had?

Mr. DILLARD. No; I won't say it had. I think it had because, like I say, I could never see the car very well. I believe it had.

Mr. BALL. Where were you sitting in the car?

Mr. DILLARD. I was sitting in the right front.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the front seat with you?

Mr. DILLARD. Oh, I don't remember; I think Jackson was sitting beside me--no; I believe Jackson was sitting in the back. I don't remember what our locations were.

Mr. BALL. But you know you were in the right front?

Mr. DILLARD. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on Houston?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; I heard an explosion which I made the comment that I believe, in my memory, I believe I said, "My God, they've thrown a torpedo" and why I said "torpedo", I don't know. If you wish, I'll go ahead----

Mr. BALL. Go ahead with your story.

Mr. DILLARD. Well, then I later estimated, immediately later, estimated, oh, 4, about 3 or 4 seconds, another explosion and my comment was, "No, It's heavy rifle fire," and I remember very distinctly I said, "It's very heavy rifle fire."

Mr. BALL. How many explosions did you hear?

Mr. DILLARD. I heard three--the three approximately equally spaced.

Mr. BALL. What is the best estimate of the position of your car with reference to the turn at Main and Houston when you heard the first explosion?

Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. It seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when I heard the first explosion.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone in your car say anything?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, after the third shot I know my comment was, "They killed him." I don't know why I said that but Jackson--there was some running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. We had an absolutely perfect view of the School Depository from our position in the open car, and Bob Jackson said, "There's a rifle barrel up there." I said, "Where?" I had my camera ready. He said, "It's in that open window." Of course, there were several open windows and I scanned the building.

Mr. BALL. Which building?

Mr. DILLARD. The School Depository. And at the same time I brought my camera up and I was looking for the window. Now, this was after the third shot and Jackson said, "There's the rifle barrel up there," and then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and I swung to it and there was two figures below, and I just shot with one camera, 100-mm. lens on a 35-mm. camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a 35-mm. which took in a considerable portion of the building and I shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras.

Mr. BALL. You shot how many pictures?

Mr. DILLARD. Two pictures.

Mr. BALL. With one camera or two different cameras?

Mr. DILLARD. Two different cameras--one daily photo, not extreme daily photo, but twice the normal lens.

Mr. BALL. You say your cameras were ready? How were they ready?

Mr. DILLARD. Hung around my neck and held in my hand.

Mr. BALL. You brought them up and focused and shot?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, on the whole ride, I had been watching the tops of buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. We were badly--in a very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade, so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is covering a Presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and so we all tried for a number of things. Incidentally, the only unusual thing in the parade that I noticed was the President--I understand the President stopped his car at Lemmon and Loma Alta, which is out in the near suburbs of Dallas, as I understand, at the request of a sign that said, "Mr. President, stop and shake hands with us." I jumped out of the car--it was a convertible with the top down--and tried to run to get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and I was unable to get up that far.

Mr. BALL. When you shot these two pictures of the Texas School Book Depository Building, how far were you from the building, would you say?

Mr. DILLARD. From the window or from the----

Mr. BALL. From the building. That would be, I suppose, a measurement along the street.

Mr. DILLARD. I would say it was just before we reached the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. You were south of Elm and Houston, were you?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About how far? Well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture?

Mr. DILLARD. Oh, it wasn't over 50, 60 yards.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything in the windows?

Mr. DILLARD. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see a rifle barrel?

Mr. DILLARD. No.

Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures or forms in the window?

Mr. DILLARD. Only in the windows which was the windows below.

Mr. BALL. How many forms did you see in the windows below?

Mr. DILLARD. I saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows. I saw them in my picture. I was making the picture my eyes were covering.

Mr. BALL. You saw them as you were taking the picture?

Mr. DILLARD. I may have; I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you saw two or three figures?

Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. But you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate?

Mr. DILLARD. Right.

Mr. BALL. Your car stopped where?

Mr. DILLARD. I remember, we were stopping and starting down Houston Street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and I know we came around the corner of Houston and Elm and saw people lying on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the plaza, and I jumped out of my car. The car stopped then and I got out and I don't know what happened.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you go out?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I made a picture of cars moving into the sun under the underpass, somebody chasing the car and I looked at the situation in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the Presidential car or anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay around there?

Mr. DILLARD. Perhaps 2 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?

Mr. DILLARD. Another car, Chevrolet convertible, of the party came by with, I assume, dignitaries in it and I jumped on the back of it and we started--I told them, of course, who I was and we started out Stemmons Expressway toward the Trade Mart and I explained to them what I knew and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. I never saw the Presidential car.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of the explosions--what direction it was coming from?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I felt that, at the time, I felt like it was coming from a north area and quite close, and I might qualify I have had a great deal of experience. I am a gun nut and have a great number of high-powered rifles at home, so I know a little bit about guns.

Mr. BALL. You have had experience with rifles?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I have shot a great deal, so I am familiar with the noise that they made in that area. We were getting a sort of reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that I was facing north toward the School Depository--I might add that I very definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. DILLARD. I very definitely smelled it.

Mr. BALL. By that you mean when you moved up to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind.

Mr. BALL. That was in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, it's rather close--the corner is rather close. I mentioned it, I believe, that it was rather surprising to me.

Mr. BALL. Who did you mention it to?

Mr. DILLARD. Bob, I'm sure.

Mr. BALL. Bob Jackson?

Mr. DILLARD. Yeah, Bob and I were talking about it.

Mr. BALL. You developed your pictures, didn't you?

Mr. DILLARD. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Or did you turn them over?

Mr. DILLARD. I printed them.

Mr. BALL. You printed them?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I don't remember whether I developed that roll or not. I may have.

Mr. BALL. Did you do that the same day?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after I came back from the hospital.

Mr. BALL. Then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two pictures you had taken?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have----

Mr. DILLARD. There was never any question in my mind that there was more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. The same rifle fired three shots.

Mr. BALL. Do you still have the two negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes; of these [indicating]?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You have them in your possession?

Mr. DILLARD. At the Dallas News; they're in a box kept locked in the managing editor's office.

Mr. BALL. Suppose we could do this. I have pictures here which you can identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do this. Could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. Well, I guess so.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. You will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print made from your negatives, is that satisfactory?

Mr. DILLARD. Suits me; I could get it notarized.

Mr. BALL. You don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy to this deposition.

Mr. DILLARD. I could sign these; of course, you want that other.

Mr. BALL. We have two here. First of all, you made one picture with a wide lens?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you made a picture with a short lens?

Mr. DILLARD. Long lens--short and wide are the same.

Mr. BALL. A short, wide lens and one long lens. Now, I show you two pictures and I mark one "A" and mark one "B." Look them over and tell me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that day.

Mr. DILLARD. These are prints from one of the negatives I made on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And then you will furnish us two prints, one from each negative which we will mark as "C" and "D" and you will initial them, is that correct?

Mr. DILLARD. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Do you mind initialing the "A" and "B" and we will make it part of this deposition--just on the back?

Mr. DILLARD. One of them will be the same picture as these two. These two are prints from one of my negatives.

Mr. BALL. That will be all right.

Mr. DILLARD. I have another negative.

Mr. BALL. Which you will make a print of?

Mr. DILLARD. If you wish.

Mr. BALL. Make up a print from each negative. Now, you made a statement to Agent Keutzer of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 25th of November 1963, didn't you, or thereabouts?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes, I said----

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Off-record discussion.)

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, you realized it was gunfire?

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you heard the third shot. Now, the statement says that upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. DILLARD. My car?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear Bob Jackson of the Dallas Times-Herald exclaim "I see a rifle; it's up in the open window".

Mr. DILLARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Jackson pointed to the Texas School Book Depository located at Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. DILLARD. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window?

Mr. DILLARD. I did not see a rifle.

Mr. BALL. But you did take two photographs?

Mr. DILLARD. Correct.

Mr. BALL. And you still have those negatives?

Mr. DILLARD. That's true.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. DILLARD. Briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of 3 or 4 minutes, that I was in the general area. After the third shot, I was probably not there over 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody leave the building?

Mr. DILLARD. To my knowledge; no.

Mr. BALL. I think that's everything. Will you waive signature on this?

Mr. DILLARD. Sure.

Mr. BALL. Thank you, sir.

Mr. DILLARD. That's all right, glad to help.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES ROBERT UNDERWOOD

The testimony of James Robert Underwood was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Underwood, will you stand up and be sworn?

(Complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. My name is James Robert Underwood.

Mr. BALL. Your occupation?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I am the assistant news director of KRLD-TV and radio in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were in the motorcade, the Presidential motorcade?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I was three cars behind the President.

Mr. BALL. Who was in the car with you?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. There was a photographer from channel 5, WBAP-TV, whose name is James Darnell, and a photographer from the Dallas Morning News--I know his name but I can't think of it right now----

Mr. BALL. Tom Dillard?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; Tom Dillard, and a photographer from the Dallas Times-Herald whose name is Bob Jackson, also a photographer from WFAA-TV and I do not know his name. I heard it but I don't remember it.

Mr. BALL. There was a driver, also?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; the driver I later found out was a member of the department of public safety.

Mr. BALL. You are a photographer, also?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I wear many hats in my business but one of which is news photographer.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your camera with you that day?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What is your experience; where were you born; where did you go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for your present job? Just in your own words, tell me something about yourself.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I was born in Oklahoma City, Okla., in 1922; I served in the Marine Corps from 1940 until 1943, almost 4 years, and after that I attended the University of Tulsa and after that I worked--I began working in radio as an announcer while I was going to college. When I got out of college, I went to Corpus Christi, Tex. That was about 1947 and I became program director and news director of a radio station in Corpus Christi and I stayed there until 1950 when I went to a station in Jacksonville, Fla., where I was also program director and news director, and in 1953, I came to Dallas, and I worked for a year and a half for WFAA-TV as an announcer, then I freelanced in television and radio from September of 1954 until November--and I have to count for a minute--6 years this November that would be until November 1958 when I went to work for KRLD-TV and Radio News and shortly thereafter I became assistant news director but I earned part of my living, I still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and I have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including photography which I enjoy doing.

Mr. BALL. On the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind the Presidential car?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I thought it was six or seven. I shot sound on film of the President's arrival and Vice President's arrival at Dallas Love Field the morning he came in on the 22d and then I took off the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera because I had an assigned place in the motorcade and I could not tell out there because of the many people I could not tell what position we were in. I could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where we were in the motorcade, although I knew we were in the front of it. The motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and I jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward the President's car and I was aware of the crowd and the motorcade immediately started and I ran back to the convertible, not wanting to be left, and looking afterward at the films that I took there, I could then count the cars there. I realized we were three behind him, according to my movies we took. When we turned onto Main Street downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke and I was without a camera. I knew that we had two men, at least two men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming the motorcade as we came by and I hoped to exchange my broken camera for one of theirs because I knew I could make more use of the one that would operate. The only problem was we went down Main Street so rapidly it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on the street and at Main and Record one of our men was stationed and I tried to holler at him my camera was broken and I wanted to switch and I started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that rapidly. I thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a crowd; this was really moving, as far as I was concerned. Then, we came to the scene where the shots were fired. Do you want me to go on?

Mr. BALL. From the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you made the turn at Main and Houston to drive north on Houston.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. After we turned onto Houston Street, the car I was in was about, as far as I can remember, about in the middle of the block or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short block, when I heard the first shot.

Mr. BALL. Between Main and Elm?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; between Main and Elm, closer to the Elm intersection, Elm and Houston intersection, when I heard the first shot fired. I thought it was an explosion. I have heard many rifles fired but it did not sound like a rifle to me. Evidently must have been a reverberation from the buildings or something. I believe I said to one of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car I was in was about in the intersection of Elm and Houston when I heard a second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and I realized that they were by that time, the last two shots, I realized they were coming from overhead.

Mr. BALL. You realized they were coming from overhead and that would be from what source?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. That would be from the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. It sounded like they were coming from that direction?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the last two. Now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. By the time the third shot was fired, the car I was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and I leaped out of the car before the car stopped. Bob Jackson from the Herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and I looked where he pointed and I saw nothing. Below the window he was pointing at, I saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, I suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from.

Mr. BALL. What words did you hear Bob Jackson say?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't know that I can remember exactly except I did hear him say words to the effect that "I saw a rifle" and I looked at that instant and I saw nothing myself. If he saw a rifle, I did not.

Mr. BALL. At that point when you looked, where was your car?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of Elm and Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Had it made the turn yet?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It had partially made the turn or had just begun to make the turn. Frankly, I was looking up and around and I saw at the same time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground had been shot.

Mr. BALL. Did your car stop?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Our car stopped and the minute it stopped I leaped out of the car.

Mr. BALL. Where was your car when it stopped?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Right in the intersection, perhaps just past the intersection, turned onto Elm.

Mr. BALL. Did you get out before the car parked along the curb?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes, sir; the minute it stopped, I leaped over the side.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, and ran as fast as I could back toward the man we had at Record and Main in order to get a camera. There I was without a camera; the only thought I had was to get a camera.

Mr. BALL. Did you get one?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; I ran the full block back to Main Street and our man there, name of Sanderson, was running down Main toward Houston. He was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and that my camera was broke. Suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been turned on police cars and were all headed toward Main. I met him just around the corner on Main past Houston and grabbed his camera and said, "Someone had been shooting at the President." I didn't know this but I assumed it happened. I took his camera and got back to the scene. When I got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the Texas School Book Depository Building. Actually, I assumed, which is the only thing I could do, I assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in that direction. I recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running also in that area--it seems to me that many, and I ran up there and took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and they very quickly found nothing and I was having, frankly, a hard time breathing because I had done more running in those few minutes than I am used to doing. I gasped out to a couple people--I don't know who they are--that I thought the shots came from that building and one of the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the building.

Mr. BALL. This group of men were deputy sheriffs?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. For the most part, yes; I don't think I could recall--Lemmy Lewis I see in my mind, but I am not sure Lemmy was there. This was a kaleidoscope of things happening. In my business, you need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to shoot pictures of it. I was confused and out of breath and unbelieving of what happened.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go from the grassy slopes?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I went from the railroad yards--actually, I was back in the track area--I went immediately with these men at a run to the Texas School Depository.

Mr. BALL. Which entrance?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. The front entrance.

Mr. BALL. On Elm?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.

Mr. BALL. Euins?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. He was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. By that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and I went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "Yes, sir." I said, "Were they white or black?" He said, "It was a colored man." I said, "Are you sure it was a colored man?" He said, "Yes sir" and I asked him his name and the only thing I could understand was what I thought his name was Eunice.

Mr. BALL. Was he about 15?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. I would have expected him to be about 10 or 11 years old.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I stayed in front of the building; actually, I stayed in the intersection of Elm and Houston and took movies of police arriving and fire--and I think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one firetruck or two firetrucks, I'm not sure, and I just shot some general film on the area. I have since searched that film to see if I could see any face in it that would have been important to this.

Mr. BALL. Leaving the building?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; but I haven't found any except that of officers arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, that you could--I spent several days at this, I guess during January when things had calmed down. I was on the side street of the building, around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next 10 minutes, then I went across the street to the courthouse and phoned several news reports to C.B.S. in New York and described what was taking place in the building at that time. There were firemen with ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots were fired and the time anyone checked the building. The main effort was to run to the railroad yards instead of the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Mr. Underwood, this will be typed up and you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. I don't have to sign it. I will waive signature.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES N. CRAWFORD

The testimony of James N. Crawford was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Crawford, I'm Joe Ball and this is Lillian Johnson.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Glad to know you. I know Lillian Johnson. How is Irving, by the way?

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand?

Mr. CRAWFORD (complying).

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I swear.

Mr. BALL. My name is Joe Ball. I'm staff counsel with the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy and I have been authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you observed on November 22, 1963. Will you state your name for the court reporter?

Mr. CRAWFORD. My name is James N. Crawford.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I am deputy district clerk.

Mr. BALL. You received a request from the Commission in writing, did you not, requesting you to give this testimony?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.

Mr. BALL. You received it some time last week?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Actually, it came to the office Saturday. I did not receive it until Monday.

Mr. BALL. That will be Monday, March 30?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was born in Greenville, Texas.

Mr. BALL. What was your general education?

Mr. CRAWFORD. High school in Greenville, Texas, and college at Texas A. & M.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of your occupations?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I worked for the Texas Company in New Orleans and have been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here in Dallas until I went with the county.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the county of Dallas?

Mr. CRAWFORD. About 10 years.

Mr. BALL. You are a deputy county clerk there?

Mr. CRAWFORD. District clerk.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, about around 12 o'clock or so, where were you?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was in the office of the district clerk.

Mr. BALL. Did you later leave and go out into the street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. About 12:25, we left the office and went out to the corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. You went with whom?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. BALL. She works in the office with you?

Mr. CRAWFORD. She is in the office with me.

Mr. BALL. What is her occupation in the office?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Assistant to the district clerk.

(At this point, Mr. James Underwood enters the hearing.)

Mr. BALL. Where is your office located in Dallas?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It's located on the ground floor of the Records Building.

Mr. BALL. What street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That's Record and Elm--that's Commerce, isn't it, Jim?

Mr. UNDERWOOD. What's that?

Mr. CRAWFORD. What is the street just north of the courthouse--that's Elm.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. It's bordered by Elm, Main, Record, and Houston.

Mr. BALL. You are located on the corner of----

Mr. CRAWFORD. Elm.

Mr. BALL. Elm and----

Mr. CRAWFORD. And Record.

Mr. BALL. And Record, and then you walked which direction?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Well, actually, the courthouse is--I suppose our office would be considered on Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. When you left your office, you walked on what street?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Walked on Elm to Houston, rather than Record.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you walked west on Elm towards Houston?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Right.

Mr. BALL. To what corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the corner of the courthouse. Do you want the direction of the intersection?

Mr. BALL. Yes, where was it? Southeast, northwest corner of Elm?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It's the northwest corner of the courthouse.

Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast corner of the intersection?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you watched the President pass?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I was at that location.

Mr. BALL. Which corner of the intersection?

Mr. CRAWFORD. The southeast corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Where was the Texas School Book Depository Building from where you were standing?

Mr. CRAWFORD. It would be on the northwest corner of the intersection.

Mr. BALL. Directly across?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; right.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I had a very good angle.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did.

Mr. BALL. And just tell me in your own words what you observed after that?

Mr. CRAWFORD. As I observed the parade, I believe there was a car leading the President's car, followed by the President's car and followed, I suppose, by the Vice President's car and, in turn, by the Secret Service in a yellow closed sedan. The doors of the sedan were open. It was after the Secret Service sedan had gone around the corner that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there. The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. I could not see the President's car----

Mr. BALL. At that time?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That's right; I couldn't even see the Secret Service car, at least I wasn't looking for it. As the report from the third shot sounded, I looked up. I had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if I could see a puff of smoke, and after I decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded, I looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor I saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. It was an indistinct movement. It was just barely a glimpse.

Mr. BALL. Which window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That would be the far east window----

Mr. BALL. On the----

Mr. CRAWFORD. On the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. I turned to Miss Mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they came from that window. That was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report.

Mr. BALL. Could you give me any better description than just a movement? Could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way of color or size of what you saw moving?

Mr. CRAWFORD. If I were asked to describe it, I would say that it was a profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. It was either light colored or it was reflection from the sun. When the gun was found, or when a gun was found, I asked the question if it was white, simply because if it was a gun I saw, then it was either white or it was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in that window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and I believe it was the only place in the building that I observed where boxes were stacked just like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any boxes in the window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No, I didn't see any. There wasn't any boxes in the window.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast corner?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No; as I said. I couldn't observe the President's car and I had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going on the street--I thought our best information would come from that, so we went, Miss Mitchell and I, went back into the office. I have no way of knowing the time. I would say it was a minute or--I would say a minute.

Mr. BALL. After you heard the shots, did you return to the office?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The movement that you saw that you describe as something light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like a profile of a person?

Mr. CRAWFORD. That was--I had a hard time describing that. When I saw it, I automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a person having moved out of the window. Now, to say that it was a brown haired, light skinned individual, I could not do that.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell whether it was a man or woman?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I could not.

Mr. BALL. You made a report to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 10th of January?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before I ask you about your report, did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I do. As I mentioned before, the sound, I thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill toward the underpass.

Mr. BALL. You mean west on Elm?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that I heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the FBI, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. It did not sound to me, ever, as I remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. It was not the sharp crack.

Mr. BALL. What caused you to look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAWFORD. The sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was being made at some place, so I didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers or anything else and I thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole area on Houston Street and in front of the Texas Depository on Elm Street and then up and that's how I happened to be looking up at the time, rather than observing things in the street, probably.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any smoke?

Mr. CRAWFORD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. In your remark to Mary Ann Mitchell, did you say "if those were shots, they came from that window"?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That is what you reported to the FBI agent, also?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes, I suppose; at that time, I was still not absolutely sure that they were shots and that's why I said if they were shots. I was basing that, I am sure I was basing that mainly on the fact of this quick movement that I observed. In other words, if I were firing the shots, I would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them.

Mr. BALL. Later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to a deputy sheriff?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Allen Swett.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the far east corner.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him anything of what you had seen?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I don't think so. I think I was so amazed that I could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been--I say "the man"--there had not been anyone apprehended.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to Allen Swett and talked to him?

Mr. CRAWFORD. My guess is it could have been anywhere from 10-20 minutes. My guess would be around 15-20 minutes.

Mr. BALL. In the statement you made to the FBI agent, he reports you said you walked to the Texas School Book Depository where you contacted Deputy Sheriff Allen Swett and advised him of the movement you had seen in the sixth floor window?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I must have said something about the movement. I did tell him to search those windows, I think.

Mr. BALL. Could you in your own words give us your memory of what you told Allen Swett?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I would probably have said, as I remember it, that to have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that window. I had seen some movement directly after the shots. That was, I think, all I said. I did not--there was no conversation and at the conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go in the building yourself?

Mr. CRAWFORD. I did not and I still have not been in there.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Crawford. Thanks very much.

Mr. CRAWFORD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. Incidentally, will you waive signature on this?

Mr. CRAWFORD. Yes; I will.

TESTIMONY OF MARY ANN MITCHELL

The testimony of Mary Ann Mitchell was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Miss Mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold up your right hand.

(Complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Miss MITCHELL. Mary Ann Mitchell.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Miss MITCHELL. I am a deputy district clerk.

Mr. BALL. For Dallas County?

Miss MITCHELL. For the county of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work is that; do you work in the court?

Miss MITCHELL. No; I work in the main office of the clerk of the district courts.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about your background--where were you born, where were you raised, what schools did you go to?

Miss MITCHELL. I was born in Roanoke, Tex., which is in Denton County, about 30 miles north of here; graduated from high school in Denton in 1942. I went to college for 2 years at Arlington and moved to Dallas and came to work here in June of 1944. I have held several secretarial and stenographic type jobs before I went to work for the county of Dallas and that was in 1950 and I have been there since then.

Mr. BALL. Since 1950, you have been with the county with the Clerk of the District Court of Dallas County?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, about noontime, where were you?

Miss MITCHELL. About noontime?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Miss MITCHELL. I was in the office about noon.

Mr. BALL. Working?

Miss MITCHELL. Working, which is in the basement of the Records Building.

Mr. BALL. Did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the parade that morning?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, as a matter of fact, I went up to see the parade since we are in the basement.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave the building?

Miss MITCHELL. At possibly 12:25 or 12:27, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Whom were you with?

Miss MITCHELL. I left the office with Jim Crawford.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Miss MITCHELL. I went out onto the street and down to the corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. That means you would be on what corner of what streets?

Miss MITCHELL. I went out the Elm Street entrance of the building and I was on the corner of Elm and Record--I'm sorry, Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Which corner?

Miss MITCHELL. I knew you were going to ask that and I decided it's probably the northwest corner. I am not good at directions.

Mr. BALL. Let's put it this way----

Miss MITCHELL. It's the corner diagonally across the intersection from the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. The Texas School Book Depository is on the northwest corner; that would put you on the southeast corner.

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir; I was thinking about which corner of the building.

Mr. BALL. The northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner of the intersection, is that right?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the curb when you were standing?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I was on the curb.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car pass?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard after the President's car passed; what did you see and what did you hear?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, the President's car passed and, of course, I watched it as long as I could see it but, as I remember, immediately behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of them were standing and I assumed they were Secret Service men, so after the car turned the corner and started down the hill, I couldn't see over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then I turned back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, and probably about the time the car in which Senator Yarborough was riding had just passed, I heard some reports. The first one--there were three--the second and third being closer together than the first and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a firecracker and I think on the second one I thought that some police officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third report Jim Crawford had said the shots came from the building and as I looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the people in the cars.

Mr. BALL. You heard Jim Crawford say something about if they were shots--what were his words exactly?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, I'm not sure that he said--I think he just said, "Those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody could have figured out by then that they were shots.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the building?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody in any of the windows?

Miss MITCHELL. I don't remember. I understand there were some porters that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but I don't remember whether I saw them or not. I know where I thought he was pointing and where I was looking I couldn't see anybody so I never was sure which window he thought he was pointing to.

Mr. BALL. Was he pointing?

Miss MITCHELL. I am almost sure that he was because I was trying to figure out exactly where he was.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that, if anything?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, looked back around at the crowd, I'm sure, because I expected to see the Secret Service men and police escorts just start pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling around and then I went back in the office.

Mr. BALL. And you did not come out again?

Miss MITCHELL. No; I did not come out again.

Mr. BALL. Did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply to what Mr. Crawford said?

Miss MITCHELL. Well, yes, I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. In reply to what remark of his?

Miss MITCHELL. Oh, I don't know. I don't know possibly it was when he was talking about the shots coming from the building but I don't remember if he said anything else.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes here. These are the notes from which I refresh my memory here.

Miss MITCHELL. I can remember what I was saying and doing better than I can what other people were.

Mr. BALL. Is there anything else that you remember that you said?

Miss MITCHELL. Besides when I said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, my goodness" or "oh, my God" or whatever I said?

Mr. BALL. Yes; that's right.

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; I said, "This is no place for us, let's get out of here." I thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers could work better.

Mr. BALL. That's when you left?

Miss MITCHELL. That's when I left and he came with me. I had locked the office and I had the key to the office still in my hand so I could get back in very fast.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Do you want to look this over and read it and sign it or do you want to waive signature?

Miss MITCHELL. Either way. We were out of the office such a short time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when the parade was coming and we could run out. We had so many people in the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was coming so we could go outside.

Mr. BALL. If you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will write it up and send it back to Washington, is that all right with you?

Miss MITCHELL. Yes; that's fine.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much for coming up today.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA ROWLAND

The testimony of Mrs. Barbara Rowland was taken at 4 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, will you stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Barbara Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Is it Miss or Mrs.?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Mrs.

Mr. BELIN. To whom are you married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Arnold Lewis Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. Your husband has already gone to Washington to testify before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation right now? What are you doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am a housewife.

Mr. BELIN. Are you a high school graduate?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still attending high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; but I plan to go back later.

Mr. BELIN. In the fall?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where is your husband working?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He's got a new job. He is working for Life Circulation Co., or corporation, I don't know which.

Mr. BELIN. What does he do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is a telephone solicitor.

Mr. BELIN. For magazine subscriptions?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband a high school graduate or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you meet while you were going to high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old is your husband, by the way?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is 18.

Mr. BELIN. When were you married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were married May 16, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. So you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if I got on the record your residence?

Mrs. ROWLAND. 1131A Phinney.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You lived here all your life?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Except the summer we lived in Oregon.

Mr. BELIN. Is your husband originally from Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He is from Corpus Christi.

Mr. BELIN. Has he lived in Texas all of his life, do you know, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He has lived in Texas and Kansas and Oregon and Arizona, and I don't know where else.

Mr. BELIN. When did he live in Kansas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 years ago, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what he was doing when he was in Kansas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was going to school and working, I don't know what as. I think he worked in a cafe.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how far your husband got through school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, his credits are all mixed up. I think he lacks one or two semesters.

Mr. BELIN. Of completing high school?

Mrs. ROLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You said you were going back to school. Does he plan to keep working, or does he plan to go back to school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He plans to go back to school sometime. I'm not sure when.

Mr. BELIN. To finish high school?

Mrs. ROWLAND. And college. Go to college, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that you know of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know for certain.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me he was going to make an application at Oregon State, and--but I don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere.

Mr. BELIN. Would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that you got in high school, would they have been C's, B's, or A's, or what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. A's and a few B's.

Mr. BELIN. What was your major?

Mrs. ROWLAND. English.

Mr. BELIN. If you had one?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was going to major in English, Math, and Spanish.

Mr. BELIN. All three?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In high school.

Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? Did you know what he was majoring in?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Math, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know about what his grades were?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Varied.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He made A's and B's in some subjects, and he made C's and D's, I think, in other subjects.

Mr. BELIN. Was this before you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He says he has an A average, but I don't believe him.

Mr. BELIN. Why? Did he tell you that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. He told me that, because I saw a few of his report cards.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all A's.

Mr. BELIN. For what years would that have been?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. I just saw them.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, I want to get just a little bit more background information. After you were married, were you employed at all or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season this year, this past year.

Mr. BELIN. Other than that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I worked for about 3 days for a friend of mine at a dry goods store.

Mr. BELIN. What about your husband? What jobs has he held since you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Let's see, he worked at West Foods in Salem,----

Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about, we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and----

Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In September.

Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he work first at one place and then----

Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't like it.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant.

Mr. BELIN. As what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a department store.

Mr. BELIN. What did he do there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook.

Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook.

Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co., and he worked there until a few days before we left.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman, and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a telephone solicitor.

Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did he work there, approximately?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about 4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season, too.

Mr. BELIN. Were you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked.

Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job was only part-time----

Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Both.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit?

Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of President Kennedy?

Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we officially dropped afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the assassination, where were you?

Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of the records building between Elm and Main Streets.

Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home.

Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about when to when?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that morning when we got up, and we walked part way----

Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus. We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about the man up in the window.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About what time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus.

Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus?

Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess.

Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times very well.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think.

Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45.

Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus around 11:15 or so?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you got it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was about, I guess, 20 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home shortly before 11?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching, waiting for the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the park.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street?

Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston?

Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side.

Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an elevator there, too.

Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first.

And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because I didn't see him.

Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.

Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side?

Mrs. ROWLAND. West.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.

Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband say to you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was what it was.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security officer?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear glasses?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window?

Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man was standing in the background.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin?

Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he had seen a hat, I think he would have said so.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this?

Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other windows or leaning out?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment.

Mr. BELIN. Later on?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the windows.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw?

Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any women.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center.

Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think was the fourth floor?

Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men?

Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people watching, I am not sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth floor?

Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how much longer did you look back up at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. After that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the motorcade came by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking back for the purpose of seeing the man.

Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the motorcade came until the time it came?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about some men who were carrying cameras.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think.

Mr. BELIN. What was he doing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking.

Mr. BELIN. Talking to you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the street or at the building.

Mr. BELIN. Or at anything?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened afterward. I mean it was just----

Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, and that is about all.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think. I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat.

Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he doesn't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened prior to the time the motorcade came by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the motorcade went by?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say, because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as her dress.

And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it might be a firecracker.

And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Three.

Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than the first and second, what did you mean?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first and second.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.

Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.

Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen in the window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything about the man.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run to?

Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman wouldn't let anybody go further.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the records building.

Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police officer?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't know who they were.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you stay with your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he didn't say there were three shots.

Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time.

Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came in, three other witnesses who come in.

There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again?

Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here, I think.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he saw this man with the gun?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. You mean he----

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in the windows of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I am fairly certain that he said there were other people looking out the windows.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not there were any other people on that same floor looking out the windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain whether he said or not. But I know there weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that could be seen from the outside.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I mean I know they couldn't be seen from the outside, because I couldn't see them. I am nearsighted.

Mr. BELIN. Were you keeping any watch on the building after the time you saw the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well----

Mr. BELIN. Did you look up at that building from time to time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I didn't pay any special attention to the building, but I am sure I glanced at the building more than once afterwards, because I can't just stand and stare in one direction.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you were glancing at other places?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you were glancing at that building, do you remember whether you glanced at it, say, within 10 minutes prior to the motorcade?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember. But most of the windows on that floor were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking out at an open window.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people look out of any open windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About how many did you see all told, if you can remember?

Mrs. ROLAND. Two or three, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Any more than two or three looking out of windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. They weren't.

Mr. BELIN. They were not? Were they on any floor higher than the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband state in the presence of you at any time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon of November 22, whether or not he saw any people looking out of the building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he say he saw them?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and I think they were never open.

Mr. BELIN. All right. So they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of any other windows on the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't say, I don't believe.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what floor? He didn't say whether he did or did not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other people on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say about what he saw? Do you remember about how many people he said he saw looking out of the windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he said any certain number of people.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that he said about that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He just said that there were some other people looking out of some windows in the same building.

Mr. BELIN. Did he specifically locate them in any way?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there any other thing that your husband said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay over there?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We were there until about 2:00 or 3:00, I think.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Then we left and walked around town and tried to get a newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the President was dead.

From that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he saw because the man he saw was dark-haired.

Mr. BELIN. Did this woman say where she was--where she saw the blond-haired man?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. I am not certain.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say where the sporting goods store was?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Some place downtown, but I don't remember exactly.

Mr. BELIN. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Meaning?

Mr. BELIN. Within a block of it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was before, she said, she heard about the President being shot, and she came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun in a rifle case.

Mr. BELIN. She had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown carrying a gun in a rifle case?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That is all she knew?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, I believe that is all she knew.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can add?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, there were two young men who came in too, and they said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. I believe they also said he was a blond man.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mrs. ROWLAND. That he was over 6 feet, and he was well built, from what they said, and that is all I know.

Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say about that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He didn't comment, I don't think.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that took place while you and your husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right now? Anything else that your husband said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, where did you go?

Mrs. ROWLAND. We left and we walked in an easterly direction and we went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then I went home and he went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he working?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At the Pizza Inn on West Davis. He caught a bus and went to work, and I caught a bus and went home.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? When did you see him next?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, wait a minute, I didn't go home very soon. The bus--there was poor bus service, and I didn't go home until quite, until about 9:00, I think, and I saw him the next morning.

Mr. BELIN. Had he been contacted at the Pizza Inn later that night, do you know, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time during that day by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think we were contacted the next day.

Mr. BELIN. That would have been Saturday?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Saturday, I know we weren't. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. When were you next contacted, either on that Saturday or that Sunday?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think so. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you how many times after November 22 were you contacted by some law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Me personally?

Mr. BELIN. You personally.

Mrs. ROWLAND. I spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four times, I think.

Mr. BELIN. About how many times in November? Once on the 22d?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted once Sunday morning at the Pizza Inn during November. I think it was the next Sunday.

Mr. BELIN. The 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. And we were contacted one morning, I am not positive, I think it might have been that Saturday, the following Saturday, the 23d--the Saturday following the assassination, at my mother's home, and I am not positive how many times.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present at any of these times that your husband was contacted?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present, for instance, on the Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband said at that time?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was in general what he had to say, and he said, "Yes," and they asked him specific questions about it and he answered them.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else that was said?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything that your husband said that was not on that written statement?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not positive.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you remember him telling them anything?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; he signed. There might have been a change or two in the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it was correct, to the best of his knowledge.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that statement that should be?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any other windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't believe he was specifically asked that question.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any people in any other windows?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. Were you present when he was with the police officers?

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times.

Mr. BELIN. On Sunday morning, November 24th?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you personally with him throughout the time that he was with the police officers?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No. He never said in my presence that there was another man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. It is a little bit like there has been asked a negative question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the question, is that right, Mrs. Rowland?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your husband had with any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I was present when Mr. Howlett came to ask, to tell him that he should go to Washington, that he wanted him to go to Washington.

Mr. BELIN. What did your husband say to that?

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said, "Okay."

Mr. BELIN. Did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he got back from Washington? Did he talk to you about his testimony in front of the Commission?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Has he ever talked to you about his testimony? Before you came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said in front of the Commission?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Going back to his interview with the police, do you know how many interviews he had after the one on Sunday, November 24?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he had about six or eight interviews in all. I mean all inclusive.

Mr. BELIN. Would that include the one with Mr. Howlett telling him to go to Washington?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. I am not positive of the number.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. From November 24 to November 30, that week, do you know how many interviews he had?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in the southwest corner window?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw anyone else on the sixth floor?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever complain to you that he was being questioned too much by any law enforcement agency?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't think so, not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave was not taken down?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law enforcement agencies?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the Dallas Morning News on February 11, 14--11th or 14th, they had an article in there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Like what?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Like that the man was good looking. I mean, because he said he couldn't recognize the man. That is what he told me.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from what the Dallas Morning News said, then, did he have any complaints about his contacts with either the FBI or Secret Service or the sheriffs office or the city police of Dallas?

Mrs. ROWLAND. None that I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part of this deposition that your husband said that he had all A's, but that you knew different, because you had seen the report card.

Mrs. ROWLAND. He said he had an A average.

Mr. BELIN. But that you knew different?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, he may have had an A average overall A average, but some of his cards didn't have A's altogether.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you mentioned that he had A's and B's and some C's and some D's?

Mrs. ROWLAND. The one I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what years those would have been for?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything that your husband says?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't feel that I can rely on everything anybody says.

Mr. BELIN. Well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any wife about her husband, and I am not asking it very correctly, but----

Mrs. ROWLAND. At times my husband is prone to exaggerate. Does that answer it?

Mr. BELIN. I think it does.

Is there anything else you want to add to that, or not?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. They are usually to boast his ego. They usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you care to add?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Again, I apologize for any--for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why I have been asking these questions.

You and I have never met before?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I ever remember.

Mr. BELIN. When we did meet, I immediately brought you in here and we started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. We didn't chat about anything before we started taking your deposition, did we?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your husband?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other time when you know that he complained about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are concerned?

Mrs. ROWLAND. When we had our first written statement, the police officer, I believe he was an FBI agent, restated everything we said, and it was typed in the--in that form. But he also asked if it was, if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't complain. But anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, I mean.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything inaccurate about the statement?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I don't think so.

Mr. BELIN. Did your husband ever make any complaints to you about anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given?

Mrs. ROWLAND. If he did, I don't remember it.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you or your husband rather, ever see a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald on television?

Mrs. ROWLAND. I saw either the actual shooting on television of Mr. Oswald or either a rerun, and I saw his picture in the newspaper, but I don't know if my husband ever saw it or not.

But he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination that Lee Harvey Oswald had been accused of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know anyone by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you or your husband know Jack Ruby?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Not to my knowledge, I never have known him, and I don't think he has. If he has, he never told me.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mrs. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. You have been most helpful, Mrs. Rowland.

One final thing. You have an opportunity to either come back and read what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it and sign it, and have it go directly to Washington.

Do you care to come down to read it?

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If you like to, you have every right to do so.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I would.

Mr. BELIN. You will be contacted then, and you can come down and read it and make any corrections, if you like.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; could I, other than making corrections have it rewritten in better English?

Mr. BELIN. No, I'm afraid my English at times isn't very good, Mrs. Rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. By corrections, I mean anything where you feel the court reporter might not have accurately transcribed the words that you and I said here.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. If either one used bad grammar, the English teachers will have to look down their noses at us.

Thank you.

Mrs. ROWLAND. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF RONALD B. FISCHER

The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FISCHER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your name?

Mr. FISCHER. Ronald B. Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. FISCHER. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is this a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. FISCHER. I'm an auditor.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. FISCHER. Dallas County auditor.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you work?

Mr. FISCHER. I work at 407 records building.

Mr. BELIN. And where is the records building?

Mr. FISCHER. That's in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, Elm, and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?

Mr. FISCHER. Twenty-five.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Children?

Mr. FISCHER. Two.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes--high school, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What high school did you go to?

Mr. FISCHER. W. W. Samuell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you complete high school or not?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you graduated from high school?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. FISCHER. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually attended the school?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I've attended the school.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you attend that school?

Mr. FISCHER. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night school.

Mr. BELIN. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?

Mr. FISCHER. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been working for the Dallas County auditor--with the exception of a correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but you are taking the correspondence course also?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's office?

Mr. FISCHER. Five years.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And were you with anyone else, or not?

Mr. FISCHER. Bob Edwards--he works in the same office that I do.

Mr. BELIN. Does he work there now?

Mr. FISCHER. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I believe. I don't know the name of the college.

Mr. BELIN. Could that be--I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?

Mr. FISCHER. I think that's it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of employment on that day to watch the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Oh, about--well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the parade was over.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. FISCHER. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street--oh, 5 or 10 after 12--and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade came by.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and Elm--approximately?

Mr. FISCHER. About 12:20.

Mr. BELIN. 12:20?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. FISCHER. We were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we were standing right on the curb there.

Mr. BELIN. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not?

Mr. FISCHER. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there. We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have just looked down the street and seen it.

Mr. BELIN. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on that curb?

Mr. FISCHER. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade--first car of the parade came around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Now what corner is that?

Mr. FISCHER. Of Houston and Main.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. FISCHER. Which would have been the first time we could have seen any of the cars because of the building--about 10 or 15 seconds before the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark--said, "He looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something.

And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end--toward the end of Elm Street. And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed.

Mr. BELIN. In what window did you see the man?

Mr. FISCHER. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of the--first of all, what building was this you saw him in?

Mr. FISCHER. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. And what side of the building would the window have been in?

Mr. FISCHER. It would have been--well, as you're looking toward the front of the building, it would have been to your right.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east, south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. Would this have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?

Mr. FISCHER. It would have been the south side--the entrance.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, on that south side of the building--now, was it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, or the west part of the south side?

Mr. FISCHER. The east part of the south side.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the third, or the fourth--or what?

Mr. FISCHER. First window.

Mr. BELIN. From the east corner of the south side?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?

Mr. FISCHER. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. FISCHER. He was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a little forward.

And he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.

Uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light complexion--he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?

Mr. FISCHER. His hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark; possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what I could see of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it?

Mr. FISCHER. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see--I believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at?

Mr. FISCHER. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass.

Mr. BELIN. Down what street?

Mr. FISCHER. Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Down Elm?

Mr. FISCHER. Toward the end of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?

Mr. FISCHER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I couldn't see.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other objects in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him because I couldn't see because of him. But--uh--all the rest of the window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. It looked like there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window there.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see any other people in any other windows there that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't remember seeing any others.

Mr. BELIN. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or that you just do not remember seeing any?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember seeing any.

Mr. BELIN. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto Houston from Main--is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see the man again in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the window?

Mr. FISCHER. I never looked back at the window.

Mr. BELIN. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched the motorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be going?

Mr. FISCHER. When the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he was going very slow. I'd say, uh--10-15 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I looked around to watch these other cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. And--uh--everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And--uh--the second shot rang out, and then everybody--from where I was standing--everybody started to scatter. And--uh--then the third shot.

At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, there must have been just three.

Mr. BELIN. At first, you thought there were four shots?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second one? Did you think that was a firecracker, too?

Mr. FISCHER. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles fire before. The--uh--first shot fooled me, I think, because of the sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?

Mr. FISCHER. Very little; but I have shot several.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a firecracker or what?

Mr. FISCHER. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting at something. Uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a real rifle--but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?

Mr. FISCHER. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there.

Mr. BELIN. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and up the hill.

Mr. BELIN. The shots seemed to be how far apart?

Mr. FISCHER. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. And-uh--I'd guess--3 to 4 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Was that between the first and the second or between the second and the third?

Mr. FISCHER. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were evenly spaced.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. No--only that they were very loud.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the shots?

Mr. FISCHER. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running down the sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh--and then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to the street--Elm Street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man said at that time that the President had been shot.

And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off--out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that, then?

Mr. FISCHER. After that, we went back up to the building where we work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. And that's where Bob and I separated and--he had some things to do--I think he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there for a little while and----

Mr. BELIN. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the records building do you feel?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--it must have been 5--5 minutes after the first shot was fired. Something like that.

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FISCHER. No; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the south side of Elm, and then crossed.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming out of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FISCHER. There seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front; but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You got back up to the building--the records building--and then what did you do?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our office. Uh--I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a radio. I was trying to--I didn't--I don't guess I really believed yet that it had happened--that the President had been shot. And--uh--I was trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.

And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so--well, 5 or 10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still nobody knew anything.

Then, I went back to the office about--oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till 1, and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives in the window, the officers, I knew that--I realized that the shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the shooting--or something was wrong with the building.

So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with the building--that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do with it.

About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was this now?

Mr. FISCHER. This was at--oh--1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?

Mr. FISCHER. I went to Decker's office and--uh--Bob Edwards was in there. He looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get me--because he had told them.

There were a lot of other people in the office--12 or 15 other people. They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit the ground when the shots started.

Mr. BELIN. Now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. He must not have been standing because I don't think the floor was that far away. He could have been standing--I'll take that back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been--I'm guessing--but I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box maybe. But he--I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.

Mr. BELIN. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a straight-up position?

Mr. FISCHER. No; he was leaning forward slightly.

Mr. BELIN. About how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell?

Mr. FISCHER. Oh, it was slightly--enough to where I could tell, but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been hard for me to see him at all.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at the sheriff's office--is that it?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an individual and ask you to try and identify him?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you whose picture it was?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Whose picture did they say it was?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And what did you say?

Mr. FISCHER. I told them that that could have been the man.

Mr. BELIN. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?

Mr. FISCHER. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that I gave--but I can't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything different--do you remember the picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And--uh--I don't know whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building--if I could have been able to--if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the window or not--or don't you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. No; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back in the shadow of the window.

Mr. BELIN. When did the policeman come out with this picture--on the same day or on the next day?

Mr. FISCHER. No; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. I can't remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or--it was at least a week. I don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the window?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the color of the hair was of the man in the picture?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it was definitely brown.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?"

Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, I guess there are a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown. It was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I can't think of anything to compare it to.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair did he have?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh--he didn't have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It--uh--must have been a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown and I'm not--I can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picture but----

Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe--at least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like it's your signature?

Mr. FISCHER. [After perusing paper.] Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in that statement that does not appear to be accurate.

(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)

Mr. FISCHER. You want me to read this now?

Mr. BELIN. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement that doesn't appear to be accurate.

Mr. FISCHER. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct.

Mr. BELIN. Is this what you told these people there?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be in his twenties--is that what you told them?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told me here today that you could see his chest?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his shoulders.

Uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about 12 of these things to take--well, yeah, 12 or 15--however many people there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his head--and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his head.

Mr. BELIN. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what about being light-headed?

Mr. FISCHER. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. He didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when I say "dark," I mean black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde--or I would have said that, but--uh.

Mr. BELIN. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"?

Mr. FISCHER. I believe I did say "light-headed"--because I didn't--like I say--I didn't want it to appear that he was dark.

Mr. BELIN. By "dark," what color do you mean?

Mr. FISCHER. Black.

Mr. BELIN. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your recollection, what color hair did he have?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--like I say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one way or the other. At the distance I was, uh--it's just--it's just too hard for me to--I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or whatever you call it--I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you remember how far the window was open?

Mr. FISCHER. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all the way open.

Mr. BELIN. By that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case that is open. Is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening covered by glass.

Mr. BELIN. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area?

Mr. FISCHER. The bottom area. The window looked to be--uh--a window that raised from the bottom up.

Mr. BELIN. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or fully open?

Mr. FISCHER. Or fully open. Yes--Or I wouldn't have been able to see the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his shoulders.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at about the time you saw the man?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see such a girl walk in the building?

Mr. FISCHER. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have been just before--uh--I saw the man in the window. I can't remember very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed by the FBI. Do you remember that?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; in the records building.

Mr. BELIN. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or not?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems like he did.

Mr. BELIN. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of the pictures?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--not--in fact, I believe they asked me--I believe they did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby.

Mr. BELIN. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture?

Mr. FISCHER. I told them that I didn't think it could be him because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look like to me.

Mr. BELIN. What about his build?

Mr. FISCHER. And that, too. His face was just a little--uh--fat; whereas-uh--Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck.

Mr. BELIN. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a low forehead--or do you remember?

Mr. FISCHER. I can't--I can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. I don't know if I could have--if I saw it now, whether I could tell you whether he had a large forehead or not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that window when you saw him?

Mr. FISCHER. Uh--from the point where I was standing when I saw him in the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds before you first saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I don't remember saying that but.

Mr. BELIN. But what is the----

Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.

Mr. BELIN. Shortly?

Mr. FISCHER. Shortly before.

Mr. BELIN. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?

Mr. FISCHER. I don't think it was over a minute. It could--it was less than a minute--because, as I recall, that's what--that's the reason I turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that you haven't related here?

Mr. FISCHER. (Pausing before reply.) No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say "No"?

Mr. FISCHER. No--I can't think of anything.

Mr. BELIN. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the first time--is that correct?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before we started taking your testimony on the record?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried to, in any way, lead you--or so forth?

Mr. FISCHER. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events happen--as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that you told me of before we started taking the deposition that has not been included in this deposition--that you can think of?

Mr. FISCHER. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

I believe that ends the deposition.

I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please?

Mr. FISCHER. Yes; and thank you.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT EDWIN EDWARDS

The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. EDWARDS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Your name, please?

Mr. EDWARDS. Robert Edwin Edwards.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards?

Mr. EDWARDS. Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do up there?

Mr. EDWARDS. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College.

Mr. BELIN. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; I am a senior.

Mr. BELIN. You are a senior.

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You have been going up to school there for several years?

Mr. EDWARDS. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Are you originally from Dallas?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; Graham, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. EDWARDS. Graham High School in Graham, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of school?

Mr. EDWARDS. I attended Abilene College.

Mr. BELIN. For a year?

Mr. EDWARDS. One year.

Mr. BELIN. Then what?

Mr. EDWARDS. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. EDWARDS. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla.

Mr. BELIN. Laid out last year?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I am finishing up this semester.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do last fall?

Mr. EDWARDS. I worked at the courthouse there.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. EDWARDS. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient.

Mr. BELIN. Main Street?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What street crosses there, do you remember?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and I will tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Harwood?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Record?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What about Elm? Houston Street?

Mr. EDWARDS. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Were you with anyone?

Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; he did.

Mr. BELIN. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job?

Mr. EDWARDS. Just a utility clerk.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after lunch?

Mr. EDWARDS. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time. For a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then we left.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. EDWARDS. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go?

Mr. EDWARDS. You mean left the office?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. EDWARDS. Down on--I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would be Houston.

Mr. BELIN. Houston?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, facing the Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this now.

Mr. EDWARDS. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you mean?

Mr. EDWARDS. Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EDWARDS. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't it? Houston comes this way?

Mr. BELIN. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Let me see if I can get one for you here.

I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on this map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow pointing north, so Houston runs north and south.

Mr. EDWARDS. Where do you put the courthouse?

Mr. BELIN. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. EDWARDS. It would have to be Houston and Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right there?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of the map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; it was here.

Mr. BELIN. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the parkway, is that right?

You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going in the parkway, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I would be over here, right over here.

Mr. BELIN. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's see if I can show you a picture.

Mr. EDWARDS. I am sorry. I don't have a picture.

Mr. BELIN. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. You see it right here?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you located?

Mr. EDWARDS. I guess I would plant myself right there.

Mr. BELIN. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who were you standing with?

Mr. EDWARDS. Ronald Fischer.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you get there?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. Where is that little paper and I will tell you.

Mr. BELIN. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; not really. I can guess.

Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just a guess.

Mr. EDWARDS. Maybe I'd better not guess.

Mr. BELIN. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly sure about it.

What did you do when you got to this point?

Mr. EDWARDS. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look around at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Certainly.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building? That would be facing--you would be looking at the south side of the building?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look at that at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before the motorcade came by?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. EDWARDS. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in among boxes.

Mr. BELIN. You say on the sixth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the building to your right or to your left?

Mr. EDWARDS. To my right.

Mr. BELIN. How near the corner?

Mr. EDWARDS. The corner window.

Mr. BELIN. The corner window there?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mr. EDWARDS. White man.

Mr. BELIN. Tall or short, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his hands?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of clothes did he have on?

Mr. EDWARDS. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.

Mr. BELIN. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what?

Mr. EDWARDS. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up.

Mr. BELIN. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?

Mr. EDWARDS. Oh, about average. Possibly thin.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin or what, if you could tell?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know?

Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Was the sun out that day?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair did the man have?

Mr. EDWARDS. Light brown.

Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is what I would say; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did you look and see any?

Mr. EDWARDS. I notice that there--I just didn't see any.

Mr. BELIN. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on the floor above?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Fourth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Third floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. Possibly.

Mr. BELIN. Second floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I believe so.

Mr. BELIN. First floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean it has been straightened out?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though.

Mr. BELIN. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather than the fifth floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I didn't count the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you didn't count the bottom floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out the window?

Mr. EDWARDS. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor?

Mr. EDWARDS. They did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them count?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was?

Mr. EDWARDS. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day?

Mr. EDWARDS. Don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said?

Mr. EDWARDS. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a joking manner.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you said it in a joking manner?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say to you?

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at him, both of us.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you look at him?

Mr. EDWARDS. Just a few seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just start looking somewhere else?

Mr. EDWARDS. Started looking somewhere else.

Mr. BELIN. How long after that did the motorcade come by?

Mr. EDWARDS. Thirty seconds or a minute.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald Fischer said?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?

Mr. EDWARDS. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?

Mr. EDWARDS. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.

Mr. BELIN. If you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do you think the shots came from?

Mr. EDWARDS. I have no idea.

Mr. BELIN. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come from the building there. Did you really say that or not?

Mr. EDWARDS. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you can think of?

Mr. EDWARDS. No.

Mr. BELIN. I want to thank you for coming down here. You have an opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it will be sent directly to Washington by the court reporter. It makes no difference to us. You can read and sign or can waive reading and signing.

Mr. EDWARDS. I don't want to make an extra trip.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it then?

Mr. EDWARDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JEAN LOLLIS HILL

The testimony of Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill is present at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

May I say for the record, Mrs. Hill, that the Commission is investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time.

May the record further reflect that Mrs. Hill was sent a letter under date of March 18, 1964. With that preliminary statement, I will ask you, Mrs. Hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. HILL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated, please, Mrs. Hill? And would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. HILL. Jean Lollis Hill.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hill, have you received a letter request?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Under date of March 18, 1964?

Mrs. HILL. I have it here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, when did you see that letter request?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I guess I got it 2 or 3 days afterward--March 18--so I must have gotten it Monday--no; I couldn't have gotten it yesterday--I got it Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. That would have been March 21?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. May the record show that a court reporter is present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of Mrs. Hill, with the court reporter, Mrs. Hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed from the time Mrs. Hill arrived, is that correct, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you on the day of November 22, 1963, at about noontime?

Mrs. HILL. I was standing directly across from the Texas School Depository Building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. And that would have been Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. HILL. If that's what the name of it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would that be on the----

Mrs. HILL. It was to the left of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. To the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded forward?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you would have been on the south side of Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what had you done immediately before noontime, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. We had been there for about an hour and a half and had been walking up and down and back and forth.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we" whom do you mean by that?

Mrs. HILL. My friend, Mary Moorman, that took the picture.

Mr. SPECTER. She had a camera with her?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; a Polaroid. We had been taking pictures all morning.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a camera with you?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And tell me what you observed as the President's motorcade passed by?

Mrs. HILL. You mean----

Mr. SPECTER. Start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened.

Mrs. HILL. Well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this Polaroid camera and since it was a Polaroid we knew we had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and I had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. Just about that time he drew even with us.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you say "he" you mean?

Mrs. HILL. The President's car. We were standing on the curb and I jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "Hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and Mrs. Kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and I was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as I know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as I yelled, "Hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. Mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there altogether?

Mrs. HILL. I have always said there were some four to six shots. There were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and then I heard more.

Mr. SPECTER. How long a time elapsed from the first to the third of what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. HILL. They were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those three shots?

Mrs. HILL. No; I don't think I can.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots followed what you described as the first three shots?

Mrs. HILL. I think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps six, but I know there were more than three.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the very last shot, will you estimate?

Mrs. HILL. I don't think I could, properly, but my girl friend fell on the ground after about--during the shooting--right, I would say, just immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third shot. She fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "Get down, they're shooting." And, I knew they were but I was too stunned to move, so I didn't get down. I just stood there and gawked around.

Mr. SPECTER. Can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots.

Mrs. HILL. In what way?

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you could be more specific by way of time lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third, or in that manner?

Mrs. HILL. The three were fired as though one person were firing; I mean, to me. They were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do with a gun.

Mr. SPECTER. With what sort of an action?

Mrs. HILL. I think that the firing that was done could have been done with the type gun that they say the assassinator used.

Mr. SPECTER. And what type gun was that, according to your understanding?

Mrs. HILL. A bolt action.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the shots that followed the three shots, then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those?

Mrs. HILL. I thought they were different--I thought the sequence was different.

Mr. SPECTER. How will you describe the sequence?

Mrs. HILL. Quicker--more automatic.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there as few as four, as you recollected?

Mrs. HILL. I won't say positively, I think I can still seemingly hear it, and I would still say there were more, you know, I'm saying 4 to 6. I know there were at least 4, and I just almost swear that I heard 5 or 6.

Mr. SPECTER. Could there have been more than 6 that you heard?

Mrs. HILL. I couldn't say that I heard more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you say for certain that you did not hear more than that?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I didn't hear any more than that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of the President, as best you recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you?

Mrs. HILL. He was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, like turned toward Mrs. Kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. His hands were in his lap?

Mrs. HILL. No--not really.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe the position of his hands?

Mrs. HILL. He was sitting here [indicating] and Mrs. Kennedy--he was like this [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating the right hand on the left knee?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. With the body turned slightly toward the person on his left?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who would have been Mrs. Kennedy?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you watching him at this time?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, I was looking right at his face.

Mr. SPECTER. And what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the first shot?

Mrs. HILL. As I said, I had yelled at him and he had started to raise his head up and I saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did his head drop down?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a chance to see anything of Governor Connally at that exact second?

Mrs. HILL. There was a scrambling around in the front seat. I didn't know who was riding with him, I hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in the car, but I never did see Mrs. Connally. I guess my story is probably colored by what I have heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that colored your story?

Mrs. HILL. About what the Connallys say about the shots, which shots hit where and everything.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that that you have heard?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I have heard that 1 shot hit Kennedy and also hit Connally, that the same shot that hit Kennedy hit Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you hear that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What else have you heard?

Mrs. HILL. And also that Mrs. Connally jumped up and covered Mr. Connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but I never did see Mrs. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Governor Connally?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I did see him; I didn't know who he was, but I did see him and I knew that someone had been hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was he pushed in the car?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I just vaguely know that he was toward the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he between President Kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was he?

Mrs. HILL. Between President Kennedy?

Mr. SPECTER. You know that there were jump seats in the car so that there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat--President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy, on the right in the jump seat--Governor Connally and Mrs. Connally and in the front seat, two Secret Service agents--people sitting three positions forward?

Mrs. HILL. I saw the Secret Service agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been, prior to the time I told you just now, familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I knew that, and as I said, I didn't know who the people were in the car because I am new here--I don't know the Connallys, I just knew that people were in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of President Kennedy?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I would say it was Mr. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe him at any specific time?

Mrs. HILL. I saw a man fall to the floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And when, in point of time, did you see him fall?

Mrs. HILL. After the President was shot, but I wouldn't--it wasn't with the first shot. To me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your saying that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs.. HILL. Well, I just think that he was hit after Kennedy was hit because, well, just the way that it looked, I would say that he was hit later.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you associate the time that Governor Connally appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard?

Mrs. HILL. The second.

Mr. SPECTER. And what specifically did you observe at the time of the second shot?

Mrs. HILL. Well, that's what I thought had happened--that they had hit someone in the front part of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. HILL. President Kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted his body and I didn't realize at the time what it was--I remarked to my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. It just rippled up like this.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time was that?

Mrs. HILL. On the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice Governor Connally at the time of the third shot?

Mrs. HILL. I never saw him again.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you believe you heard?

Mrs. HILL. Well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and I took the other shots--about that time Mary grabbed me and was yelling and I had looked away from what was going on here and I thought, because I guess from the TV and movies, that it was Secret Service agents shooting back. To me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back and so I just thought that that's what it was and I thought, well, they are getting him and shooting back, you know; I didn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's car at the time you thought you heard the fourth shot?

Mrs. HILL. The motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out, and I would say it was just approximately, if not--it couldn't have been in the same position, I'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. It was just almost stunned.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you think the President's car was?

Mrs. HILL. That was during those shots, I think it wasn't any further than a few feet--further down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the fifth and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have testified about?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, at that time she was yelling at me and on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was yelling at you?

Mrs. HILL. Mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the ground and I looked up and I could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all around and I just stood there looking around and I'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but I'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving again.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the shots over by that time when things started moving again?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what happened on the scene?

Mrs. HILL. Well, they say Mrs. Kennedy climbed up on the back of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that?

Mrs. HILL. No; I have seen pictures that show that she must have, but I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. To the----

Mrs. HILL. Other side.

Mr. SPECTER. North side of Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right. I saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something--I would say he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. He was right up there by the School Depository, just--not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. At the west end?

Mrs. HILL. More to the west end.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? Was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point?

Mrs. HILL. I would say he was farther east than the westernmost point.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with Houston Street----

Mrs. HILL. Yes; but I can't do this very well.

Mr. SPECTER. Permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that I want your recollection, and I'll ask you the questions. Assume that Houston Street is the street which I am marking Houston. Assume that this is Main Street. Assume that Elm Street curves down in the manner that I am drawing and marking.

Mrs. HILL. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Assume that the Texas School Book Depository is this large building which I will mark "TSBD." Now, would you place with the letter "A" where you were at the time the President went by?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I would have to place the President first.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine--place him with the letter "X".

Mrs. HILL. All right--if he were here----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street?

Mrs. HILL. He was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, place yourself with the letter "A".

Mrs. HILL. Right there [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Make it a big printed "A" for us.

Mrs. HILL. Okay. [Complied with request of counsel Specter.]

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you place the position you ran to after the President's car went by?

Mrs. HILL. By that time, I'm sure the car was here--it was on down a little way, and I ran behind here.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw a line to where you ran.

Mrs. HILL. All right--I don't know whether I've got this just right--but I ran approximately right up through here.

Mr. SPECTER. Put a "B" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street.

Mrs. HILL. These steps.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you when you first noticed the----

Mrs. HILL. These steps that go up--I guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it.

Mr. SPECTER. That go in a generally westerly direction?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Beyond the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I was just on this side----

Mr. SPECTER. "This side"--you are meaning--the east of it?

Mrs. HILL. The east of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you beyond the westernmost point of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still in front of that building?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is the letter "B" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that man, indicating with the letter "C," where he was? He was very close to you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any space in here--I mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here.

Mr. SPECTER. He was between Elm Street and the Depository Building?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see him going?

Mrs. HILL. I saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west?

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about that man, if anything?

Mrs. HILL. That he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Why was your attention attracted to him?

Mrs. HILL. Because he was the only thing moving up there. The other people were all grief stricken and standing there and I don't know what I would have done with him when I got up there, but I don't know why I even had the instinct to run, and I don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since I had already--I have told it and it is part of my recollection, I am just stating it again.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving?

Mrs. HILL. I just thought at the time--that's the man that did it.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think that this was the man that did it?

Mrs. HILL. I just don't know--I mean--that was my thought.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any weapon in his hand?

Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that man from the front?

Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, now, when I saw him he was turning and going to the west.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he in the process of turning when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I would say he was turning.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you had some view of his front part of his body?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you see any weapon at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time I did see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see both of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see one of his hands at that time?

Mrs. HILL. No; I do not even remember seeing his hands.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they?

Mrs. HILL. They surely would have been.

Mr. SPECTER. So, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands?

Mrs. HILL. I have no recollection--that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--surely.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand?

Mrs. HILL. No; I never saw a weapon the whole time.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you moved from point "A" at the time you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. That's the reason I ran across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him while you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL. Do you mean prior to the shots? Yes; I saw him, that's the reason why I went across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. So, you saw him when you were at point "A"?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--that's the reason I left that spot.

Mr. SPECTER. And he was at point "C" when you first saw him?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL. His moving made me start after him.

Mr. SPECTER. So, he did move before you moved?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and as I came across the street--as I said--I never did see Mrs. Kennedy get up or anything, because when I ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me turning around, because I looked up in his face and he was looking all around.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean the policeman?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I don't think he ever did see me. I just looked at him and dodged then because I thought his wheel was going to hit me, and I don't think he ever did see me, and I ran across through there and started up the hill. When I looked down on the ground, I mean, as I was running up the hill to catch that man, I looked down and saw some red stuff and I thought, "Oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be Koolade or some sort of red drink.

Mr. SPECTER. You thought they had gotten the man who was running away?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the Secret Service?

Mrs. HILL. I just thought, "Oh, goodness, the Secret Service is shooting back."

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what that man looked like?

Mrs. HILL. He wasn't----

Mr. SPECTER. How tall was he?

Mrs. HILL. He wasn't very tall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he more than 5 feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him?

Mrs. HILL. Well, yes; but I don't want to.

Mr. SPECTER. Why is that?

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I had told several people and I also said it that day down there and the person that I described, and I am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that I am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that I saw looked a lot like--I would say the general build as I would think Jack Ruby would from that position. But I have talked with the FBI about this and I told them I realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course I didn't--at that time I didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. I frankly thought they were coming from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you think they were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. That was just my idea where they were coming from.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. This area in front of the Book Depository--it's right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from.

Mrs. HILL. This is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. That's when I looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there--I thought that probably he had done it, and so I went to catch him, for some reason.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from?

Mrs. HILL. Well, evidently I didn't because the only conscious recollection I have of that--I mean--until all this other came out--I had always thought that they came from the knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Any conscious impression of where this third shot came from?

Mrs. HILL. Not any different from any of them. I thought it was just people shooting from the knoll--I did think there was more than one person shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. You did think there was more than one person shooting?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What made you think that?

Mrs. HILL. The way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired--the timing.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot?

Mrs. HILL. Well, nothing, except that I thought that they were fired by someone else.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. HILL. No; as I said, I thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you think that the Secret Service was firing them from that knoll?

Mrs. HILL. I said I didn't know--I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. You just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And you had the general impression that the Secret Service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. But you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, when I looked down at this red stuff on the ground, I said, "Oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." You know, I was going to follow that, and when I looked up again, I looked all around and I couldn't see him anywhere and I kept running toward the train tracks and I looked all around out there and I couldn't see him--I looked everywhere and I heard someone yelling something about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "It looks like he got away," or something--I thought I had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the Depository, and so, I didn't know where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen--where he had gone. By that time I saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all I could think of was, "I want to get out of here fast. I don't want to be caught by anybody. I don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come toward me I would go another way until I got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you run up toward the hill?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I ran up toward the railroad tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point--where? About the point of "D" here?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you run up there--after the man?

Mrs. HILL. I was still looking for him. I didn't know where he had gone. I heard lots of people yelling, "Did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go."

Mr. SPECTER. You were trying to catch him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But you couldn't find him any more?

Mrs. HILL. No; I just couldn't find him again. When I stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when I looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you looked down at the ground? Point it out to me on the diagram.

Mrs. HILL. The steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and I saw it right about here.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, mark it with the letter "E" there.

Mrs. HILL. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything more about the identity of the man. Why did you tell me that, Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I have had an awful lot of fun made of me over being a witness in this and I'm real tired of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, quite a lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Anybody connected with the official investigation in the case?

Mrs. HILL. No, oh, no; it was just people, but people that I know.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, and why have they made fun of you, because of your identification of who that man was?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other reason?

Mrs. HILL. Yes--I saw a dog in the car. They kept asking me, and I even gave that out on a radio or TV interview that I had seen a dog in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. In which car?

Mrs. HILL. Between the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and they kept asking me what kind of a dog and I said, "I don't know, I wasn't interested in what was in the seat," but I said, "It was white and fuzzy," and I said, "It was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and I said, "I just got to thinking--it must be a small dog," because I had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, I said, "Why?" I said, "I could see Liz Taylor or the Gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but I can't see the Kennedys traveling with dogs. Why would they have a dog with them on tour?" And, when we remarked about that she and I both--and I said, "Did you see it? What kind of a dog was it? Why were they taking a dog?" I found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but I knew they were looking at something and I just barely glanced and I saw this.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other reason people made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the record?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on the record. This really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that everything be written down.

Mrs. HILL. Well.

Mr. SPECTER. In a situation of this sort.

Mrs. HILL. Well, because I talked with an Oklahoma twang, and called Mrs. Kennedy "Jackie" and I said, "He pitched forward in Jackie's lap," and I just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because I didn't know it was going to be taken down.

Mr. SPECTER. And those are the reasons your husband made fun of you?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and because I saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that I had seen a dog, and he said, "Of all people in the United States you would have to see a dog."

Mr. SPECTER. Has anybody made fun of you besides your husband?

Mrs. HILL. No; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of people.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, going back to the question of the description of this man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have?

Mrs. HILL. No; I haven't--I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. His height you said was about the height of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. How about his weight?

Mrs. HILL. That's the only thing--I would say--he certainly wasn't any bigger than Jack Ruby.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he smaller than Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. He could have been smaller.

Mr. SPECTER. How about--was he wearing a hat?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I said he was wearing a hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he wearing a top coat?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; an overcoat.

Mr. SPECTER. And was he wearing a tie, could you tell?

Mrs. HILL. I didn't notice. It was a brown, I mean, I just got the impression of a brown hat.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an estimate of his age?

Mrs. HILL. I would say the man was middle aged, or say, I would say 40.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro?

Mrs. HILL. He was a white man.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe him in any other way to me?

Mrs. HILL. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think he was, in fact, Jack Ruby?

Mrs. HILL. That, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me all that you can recollect about this man and your reason for moving toward him?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, as far as I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you were at point "D," what did you do after being at point "D," which we have marked on the diagram?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the policemen were coming by that time from different areas, coming and closing this place off, and I was dodging them, trying to get back across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Back across Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you in fact dodge them?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And get back across Elm Street?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you do next?

Mrs. HILL. There was a man holding Mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Dallas Times Herald?

Mrs. HILL. That's right. I ran up there and told him we had to leave. She had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even gone down to see the President that day--we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows her way around real well, so I knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. It was parked up here on Houston. We were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and I don't know--we had been talking about it so long and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when I came back and I found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, I mean holding her by the arm and her camera, and telling her she had to go with him, I started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "No, we wouldn't go, we had to leave," and I guess by that time I was beginning--until then I have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. I mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and I mean, I wasn't worried or upset in any way until I got back there and then I had a sense of urgency. I just knew I wanted to get out of there and all I could think of--and I don't think the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because I was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, I guess it is, and put us in this little room and I don't know why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. He kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters?

Mrs. HILL. Newspaper reporters and radio and TV people and a man from--a man named Coker John, or John Coker.

Mr. SPECTER. From where?

Mrs. HILL. As I get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and I think he was on an assignment then. He came out--I'm not sure--I thought it was for Life or Post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for--I think he was shooting them for TV, but he came out to the house about 2 weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time I saw him, because he said, "You remember me, I saw you in the pressroom that day."

Mr. SPECTER. Is that Miss Hill or Mrs. Hill?

Mrs. HILL. It is Mrs. Hill, and he said "I saw you in the pressroom that day," and I said, "Yes." I remembered him because I saw him more than any--now, I don't remember where I am here.

Mr. SPECTER. You were telling me about what happened to you at the county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about John coming to see you in your home.

Let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an affidavit to the sheriff that day?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you talk to anybody from the Federal Government that day?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you talk to?

Mrs. HILL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What agency was the man from, if you know?

Mrs. HILL. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you talked to somebody from the Secret Service in this case altogether?

Mrs. HILL. I would say the only time I talked to the Secret Service men was when I was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and I think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the Secret Service men.

Mr. SPECTER. And, did they write down what you were telling them?

Mrs. HILL. I don't think they did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign anything?

Mrs. HILL. Oh, well, I signed my statement that I made over in the sheriff's office.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, how about for the Secret Service men, did you sign anything?

Mrs. HILL. No, I don't think we signed anything over there, because they just took us in a little room----

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell the Secret Service men?

Mrs. HILL. As well as I remember, we talked to so many that day.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have told me here today?

Mrs. HILL. Yes, except that I didn't go into that stuff with the shots because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all from us.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk with the Secret Service men on any occasion after the events on November 22?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to anybody else from the Federal Government?

Mrs. HILL. The FBI men.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. HILL. Several.

Mr. SPECTER. How many, if you remember?

Mrs. HILL. I don't recall--I was called two or three times at least after that.

Mr. SPECTER. Called on the telephone?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. You discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who said he was from the FBI?

Mrs. HILL. No; I had that pulled on me and I didn't want to talk until I called back down to check to see.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to somebody from the FBI when you called them back?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Over the phone?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. HILL. I think two or three times is all I had.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you ever interviewed in person by the FBI?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions?

Mrs. HILL. After that day, I believe only once.

Mr. SPECTER. And about when was that?

Mrs. HILL. Well, it was the other day after I received this letter--no; before I received this letter, and this was last Tuesday, I think, and they came in reference to what Mark Lane had told the Warren Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did they ask you when they came to see you last Tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the 16th--or the 17th?

Mrs. HILL. They just had me start over with this story again and they had Mr. Lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if I had said these things and, I read it and told them that I had said it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Lane's version accurate?

Mrs. HILL. It was accurate in that he took down what I said. It was inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. I can see how he could have made what he made out of my statements.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Mr. Lane?

Mrs. HILL. I talked to him about--approximately 4 or 6 weeks ago.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did that take place?

Mrs. HILL. At New York.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you on the telephone?

Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever talk to Mark Lane in person?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever sign an affidavit for him?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. The only contact you had with him was this one telephone conversation?

Mrs. HILL. That's right, and he said he was coming to Dallas the next week and would I talk with him, I said, I told him then--that I guessed so. I didn't know. I mean, because I didn't fully realize what he was doing in this case.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you tell him over the telephone?

Mrs. HILL. I told him the same story I told you, with the exception that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, and at the courthouse.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell him about your day's activities at the courthouse?

Mrs. HILL. Well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of questions about that, and I told him that we didn't know that we were in a pressroom. We just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. I mean, this was to us a police station.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell me all the things that you told him, in addition to those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things you told Mr. Lane, in addition to that you have already testified about.

Mrs. HILL. I will, but do you realize I have had to go over this so many times that I don't know who I have told which part to? I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in telling me all the things you told Mark Lane.

Mrs. HILL. Can't you just read my statement?

Mr. SPECTER. Feel free to smoke--just relax.

Mrs. HILL. I would except, I don't have one.

Mr. SPECTER. Just relax if you can.

Mrs. HILL. All right, if I can.

Mr. SPECTER. Off the record.

Let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. May the record show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding.

When we broke for the coffee, I had asked you to tell me all the things you told Mark Lane other than those which you have already testified about.

Mrs. HILL. Before we go into that--I do want to have you--because I hope that by this time I am through with it, but I do want to tell you about a camera team that came out there to my house that this John Coker was with.

Mr. SPECTER. On which occasion was that?

Mrs. HILL. That is important to me and that is the reason why I digressed and got on that.

Mr. SPECTER. This occurred, you say, about 2 weeks after the assassination?

Mrs. HILL. Say--10 days.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened on that occasion?

Mrs. HILL. They came out and brought TV cameras and were going to take, and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their questions, and they set up rather, I would say they set up hypothetical situations like--could he have been shot from the window, if this is the kind of wound that it would have made? Or, to make this kind of a wound, he had to have been here, now which, you know--and so I told them and from what I gathered that day, they did not think I had--I had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some reasonable doubt that I--that Oswald did not do all the shooting and that all these shots did not come from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. You told the newspaper and the television cameramen that?

Mrs. HILL. That's what I got from them from the questions they asked me.

Mr. SPECTER. What answers did you give them to those questions?

Mrs. HILL. Well, when they would set up a situation, I would tell them what I thought would have had to happen in that situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, without formulating any questions which would lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the assassin was, if you have any idea on that question?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said previously, to me at the time the shot came from the knoll, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. And you have testified to that because of the sound of the shots?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And also because you saw this man running away.

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away? And your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting?

Mrs. HILL. It could have been very well--it could have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other factors which led you to think that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have already told me about?

Mrs. HILL. Except that I believe these men thought so that night.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your reaction was at the time.

Mrs. HILL. That's what I thought. At the time I thought that there was more than one person shooting, as I said before.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have already told me about that and you told me about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that was more than one person, and now, what I'm trying to get at is why you thought they came from the knoll--was it first because the way the shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran away, and then I asked you the second question--did you think perhaps they came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought that might be the case.

Mrs. HILL. Could be.

Mr. SPECTER. And then I asked you were there any other findings other than those we have already talked about, which would make you think that the shots came from the knoll, based on your own personal observations, recollections or impressions.

Mrs. HILL. Nothing that comes to mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about that television interview which you consider important?

Mrs. HILL. Except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused.

Mr. SPECTER. Because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations, and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them?

Mrs. HILL. That's right--they had some very strange ideas which I have heard here and there voiced by other people.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they doing basically, asking you to comment on those various theories?

Mrs. HILL. I asked why were they coming out here, why would they come to my home, why was that important, and they said, "Something big is going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. We want to be ready for it."

Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever put that television interview on?

Mrs. HILL. I have never seen any, but then, I never saw myself on TV either.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else about that television interview which you now consider important?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I know that it has bothered me ever since it happened, and particularly since I have been questioned these other times.

Mr. SPECTER. By the FBI last week?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and without things of comments, and speculation that I have heard, and remarks that I've gone back over, of happenings that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and frankly, I would either like to say it again or something----

Mr. SPECTER. Like to say what again?

Mrs. HILL. I would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my mind----

Mr. SPECTER. But you can't put your finger on what it is?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. But you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or confused by that?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; I have been.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told me everything that you have to say about that television interview?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the question about Mark Lane, what did you tell him other than that which you have told me here today?

Mrs. HILL. He asked me where we were taken and I told him in the pressroom, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing across the door, and the first time we really--we were getting tired of it, I mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what I told him, and so some man came in and offered Mary a sum, I think--say--$10,000 or something like this for this picture.

We realized that--they said, "Don't sell the picture." He was a representative of either Post or Life, and they said, "Don't sell that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a lawyer or something." Anyway, we realized at that time we didn't have that picture, that it had been taken from us. I mean, we had let Featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could reproduce it. They said, "Would you let us look at it and see if it could be reproduced?" We said, "Yes; you could look at it," we thought it was--you know, it was fuzzy and everything, but we were wanting to keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about it, and Mary was getting scared----

Mr. SPECTER. Did she eventually sell the picture, by the way?

Mrs. HILL. She sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the original picture, but they had already--AP and UP had already picked it up because Featherstone stole it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what she sold those rights for?

Mrs. HILL. I think it was $600.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell Mark Lane besides about the picture?

Mrs. HILL. This is it.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine, go ahead.

Mrs. HILL. Anyway, when I realized we didn't have that picture and Mary was getting upset about that--by that time I had realized we were in a pressroom and that he had no right to be holding us and he had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept standing in front of the door, and I told him--I said, "Get out." We kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, "We'll get it back--we'll get it back. And so I jerked away and ran out of the door and as I did, there was a Secret Service man. Now, this I was told--that he was a Secret Service man, and he said, "Do you have a red raincoat?" And, I said, "Yes; it's in yonder. Let me go." I was intent on finding someone to get that picture back and I said as I walked out, "I can get someone big enough to get it back for us." He said, "Does your friend have a blue raincoat?" And I said, "Yes; she's in there." He said, "Here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they had been looking for us.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?

Mrs. HILL. This man.

Mr. SPECTER. All this you told Mr. Lane?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.

Mrs. HILL. And so, then they took us into the police station. Just about that time Sheriff Decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because they had thought that Mary had been hit and they were looking for the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. At that time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were right at the car. So, there followed questioning all afternoon long, and he asked me at one time--well, in fact he asked repeatedly if I was held and I told him, "Yes."

Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you that?

Mrs. HILL. Mark Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. If you were held?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; you know if I were held, if I had to stay there and I told him, "Yes," but I told him when we were in the pressroom it was just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting the man intimidate us that had no authority.

Mr. SPECTER. That was a newsman as opposed to the police official?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; and I gave Mark Lane his name several times--clearly. I remember clearly that I gave him his name.

Mr. SPECTER. And what name did you give him?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone of the Times Herald, and so after we got out of there and I talked with a man----

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told Mark Lane?

Mrs. HILL. That's right, and I talked with this man, a Secret Service man, and I said, "Am I a kook or what's wrong with me?" I said, "They keep saying three shots--three shots," and I said, "I know I heard more. I heard from four to six shots anyway."

He said, "Mrs. Hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three shots is all that we are willing to say right now."

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did that Secret Service man try to suggest to you that there were only three shots in any other way than that?

Mrs. HILL. That's all he said to me. He didn't say, "You have to say three shots"--he didn't tell me what to say.

Mr. SPECTER. He didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way?

Mrs. HILL. No; that's all he said.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Go ahead and tell me what you told Mark Lane.

Mrs. HILL. I told him--I was asked by them----

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that Secret Service man was, by the way?

Mrs. HILL. No; I don't. I don't know--not any name that day except Decker and the President.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said.

Mrs. HILL. Then, he asked me--I was asked did I know that a bullet struck at my feet and I said, "No; I didn't." And he said, "What do you think that dust was?" And I said, "I didn't see any dust." And I told Mark Lane that the Times Herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see that concrete?

Mrs. HILL. I didn't go back down there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete?

Mrs. HILL. As I say, I saw the picture in the newspaper.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that?

Mrs. HILL. No; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the Secret Service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?

Mrs. HILL. So, he asked me, "Did you have to stay down there or did you stay of your own accord?" And I said, "No; we had stay there." He said something--he said, "Were you threatened or something?" And I told him I wasn't threatened, but--he said, "How do you know you were held?" Or something like that, and I said, "Because I tried to leave twice. At one time I saw people I knew on the street and I was going to go down and talk to them and I went down and they came down and got me, and another time I went down when the evening edition of the paper hit the street and two men," and I told him, I did not tell him they were Secret Service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. There were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back and they were not playing. They meant to take me back. They did take my arms and I knew I was going, because I just kept standing on the corner saying, "No; I don't want to go back yet. Please let me stay down here just a little while." They did make us go back in there.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they from?

Mrs. HILL. They were from the sheriff's office, they were just deputies--they weren't FBI or Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the sheriff?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What else did you tell Mark Lane?

Mrs. HILL. Well, I told him that my story had already been given, that they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "Were you ever at any time--" I think he said, "Were you ever at any time told not to say something or this, that, and the other," and I said, "The only thing that I was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he said, "And why?" And I said, "Well, it was an FBI or Secret Service that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after I was taken--I was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact--I told him it was Featherstone that told me. He said, "You know you were wrong about seeing a man running." He said, "You didn't."

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you you were wrong--Featherstone or Lane?

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone. And I told him that--I told Mr. Lane that Mr. Featherstone had told me that, and I said, "But I did," and he said, "No; don't say that any more on the air."

Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Don't say that any more on the air?"

Mrs. HILL. Featherstone; and I made it clear to Mark Lane, because I mentioned his name several times, and he said, "He has told me not to tell anyone"----

Mr. SPECTER. You mean Featherstone?

Mrs. HILL. Yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the Depository and for me not to say that any more, that I was wrong about it, and I said "Very well," and so I just didn't say any more that I ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part, as much as I can get from when the FBI men came out and talked to me the other day, that is the part mostly that I got that was out of context, because what he gave the Commission was basically true.

Mr. SPECTER. What Mark Lane gave the Commission?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Except for what----

Mrs. HILL. Except he didn't have his comments in there.

Mr. SPECTER. What were his comments?

Mrs. HILL. Well, as I said, the way he would ask me things I can see why I gave the answers I did, which to me are the truth, but I can see, taken out of context, why he or the Commission, well, not how he, because he was listening to me--how the Commission could take it to mean maybe something else?

Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat then to the Commission how the Commission could take them to mean maybe something else?

Mrs. HILL. Yes----

Mr. SPECTER. Did he repeat them to the Commission out of context--did Mark Lane repeat them out of context?

Mrs. HILL. To me they were--to me they were--it was my comments and it wasn't everything I said.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the ways that Mark Lane took your comments out of context?

Mrs. HILL. So far as I know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about your conversation with Mark Lane which you think would be helpful to the Commission to know about?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, before getting on to Mark Lane, we were talking about the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the FBI when you called back to verify it was the FBI and about a single interview you had with the FBI a week ago today, which would have been the 17th of March?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you had any additional interviews with any Federal authorities before today, other than those which you have already told me about?

Mrs. HILL. No; not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, Mrs. Hill, I'm going to ask you some questions about your own background--first of all I would like you to tell me how old you are, for the record?

Mrs. HILL. Thirty-three.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is your home area--Dallas or some other part of the country or what?

Mrs. HILL. Where am I from?

Mr. SPECTER. Where are you from?

Mrs. HILL. Oklahoma.

Mr. SPECTER. And what city in Oklahoma?

Mrs. HILL. Originally Wewoka and later Oklahoma City.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you married?

Mrs. HILL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any unusual status with respect to your being married at this moment?

Mrs. HILL. I am in the process of getting a divorce.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many children have you?

Mrs. HILL. I have two--a boy 12 and a girl 10.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your educational background?

Mrs. HILL. I was graduated from Wewoka High School and Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year did you graduate from high school?

Mrs. HILL. 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. And what year from college?

Mrs. HILL. 1954, after two babies later.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a 4-year college?

Mrs. HILL. That's right.

Mr. SPECTER. And how are you occupied at the present time?

Mrs. HILL. I taught 7 years in Oklahoma City public schools and for the past year and a half I have been doing substitute teaching for the Dallas Board of Education.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your maiden name?

Mrs. HILL. Lollis.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your husband's occupation?

Mrs. HILL. He is a consultant for Science Research Associates, lately IBM.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything else that you would care to tell me which you think might be of aid to the Commission in its investigation?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition.

Mrs. HILL. Am I completely through with the Commission?

Mr. SPECTER. I think this will be the end of it--we have all of the records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be called anytime. You have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the distinction of having been an eye witness.

Mrs. HILL. Well, I know, I have always been rather--I mean, it's not something you are--you are not proud to say it, but I think it was part of history and I was glad I was there, but because I got publicity, because--I think my children will be interested to know that someday that I was in it someway.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are no further plans for the Commission to call you again. This transcript will be reviewed by me in Washington and by my colleagues in Washington and it is possible that you may be contacted again. Perhaps I might talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the FBI, or it is even conceivable the Commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in Washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we have the basic information from you which we need.

Mrs. HILL. I told the FBI the other day I did not want to go to Washington. I don't think I can take any more laughing at.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it is absolutely necessary.

Mrs. HILL. Good. I was hoping this would do it.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Thank you very much.

Mrs. HILL. Thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purposes of the record, this diagram which was used during the deposition of Mrs. Hill will be marked Hill Exhibit No. 5.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Hill Exhibit No. 5, for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF AUSTIN L. MILLER

The testimony of Austin L. Miller was taken at 2:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you stand and be sworn, sir.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MILLER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record.

Mr. MILLER. Austin L. Miller.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live?

Mr. MILLER. 1006 Powl Circle, Mesquite, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; it is just a little town.

Mr. BELIN. How far out of Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. It borders the city limits of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. MILLER. Twenty-six

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to school in Texas?

Mr. MILLER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go to school?

Mr. MILLER. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. MILLER. I quit school and went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you work?

Mr. MILLER. First worked at Titche's, and then for Robertson & King Motor Supply, and from there I went back to Titche's, and then to A. & P. Bakery Co., and then I worked for Presto Delivery Co., and then to Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau where I am working now.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been there?

Mr. MILLER. Ever since 1958, January 1958.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do now?

Mr. MILLER. Well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff compiler.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you working on Friday, November 22, 1963, which was the day that President Kennedy came to Dallas?

Mr. MILLER. Texas-Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that located?

Mr. MILLER. 215 Union Terminal.

Mr. BELIN. Where is the Union Terminal located?

Mr. MILLER. That is down at--the address they give is 400 South Houston Street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they use. Because 400 is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city park there.

Mr. BELIN. What cross street? Would it be near any intersection at all, or not?

Mr. MILLER. On the corner of Houston, and I can't think of the name of that street now, right in front of the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be north or south of Main Street?

Mr. MILLER. It would be south.

Mr. BELIN. How many blocks south of Main Street?

Mr. MILLER. Four blocks.

Mr. BELIN. Four blocks south of Main Street on Houston?

Mr. MILLER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right, where were you at about the time the motorcade came by?

Mr. MILLER. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the Main Street side.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three underpasses there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes. They are sitting side by side. It is Main, Commerce, and Elm. I was over Elm instead of Main Street. I was over Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that is the first. Is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and part freeway?

Mr. MILLER. All railroad tracks go over that particular set of underpass.

Mr. BELIN. Where you were?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get there?

Mr. MILLER. About 12:15 or 12:20.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time the motorcade came by?

Mr. MILLER. No; I don't, not for sure.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after you got there did you see the motorcade?

Mr. MILLER. About 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else standing around there that you knew?

Mr. MILLER. Royce Skelton, the boy I work with and an elderly man who is a building maintenance man. By name, I don't know him, but a lot of other employees I have seen in the building other than myself.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else that you knew?

Mr. MILLER. As far as knowing, no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw other people there?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer around there?

Mr. MILLER. There was one on both sides of the bridge.

Mr. BELIN. Well, describe what happened. Did you see the motorcade come by?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it came down Main Street and turned north on Houston Street and went over two blocks and turned left onto Elm Street.

Got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is when as far as I can recall the first shot was fired.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know it was a shot when you heard it?

Mr. MILLER. I didn't know it. I thought at first the motorcycle backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you hear or see?

Mr. MILLER. After the first one, just a few seconds later, there was two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. I didn't know for sure. And it was after that I saw some man in the car fall forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, I don't know exactly what she said.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. MILLER. About that time I turned and looked toward the--there is a little plaza sitting on the hill. I looked over there to see if anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, so I stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad tracks.

So I turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible take off fast.

Mr. BELIN. You mean the convertible in which the President was riding?

Mr. MILLER. I wouldn't want to say it was the President. It was a convertible, but I saw a man fall over. I don't know whose convertible it was.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the shots sound like they came from?

Mr. MILLER. Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was looking at him over toward that incline.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you saw.

Mr. MILLER. About the time I looked over to the side there, there was a police officer. No; a motorcycle running his motor under against the curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious movements of any kind over there?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad tracks, that you hadn't seen before?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't. We was all standing in one group right at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about 5 or 10 feet behind us.

Mr. BELIN. Now about how many were there in that group altogether, if you can remember?

Mr. MILLER. I would say in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 people. Maybe more, maybe less.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the vicinity at all on the railroad tracks?

Mr. MILLER. There was one young man or boy. He was going to come up on the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "No," so the police officer made him go back down.

Where he went to, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. When was this?

Mr. MILLER. Oh, before the President came along.

Mr. BELIN. About how much before, do you know? Offhand?

Mr. MILLER. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about this man or boy that you described? About how old he was, or anything?

Mr. MILLER. I can't think. I would say he was in his early twenties.

Mr. BELIN. Tall or short?

Mr. MILLER. I don't remember that much about him. I do recall him coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back.

Mr. BELIN. So he went back down?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where did he come up from?

Mr. MILLER. He came up from the--I am going by where I was standing. He was from our left, from around behind that parking lot.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him again or not?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything on the railroad tracks at any time?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started searching.

Mr. BELIN. That was the only other people that you saw?

Mr. MILLER. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can add that might be of help in any way to the Commission, or to the investigation into the assassination?

Mr. MILLER. Offhand, no, sir; I don't recall anything else.

My statement at the time may have some more, but I don't recall exactly what all did happen for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you and I never met until just a few minutes ago, did we?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. And as soon as you came in here, we started immediately taking your testimony under oath, is that correct?

Mr. MILLER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We never talked about the facts before then, did we?

Mr. MILLER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you have the right, if you like, to read this deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it go directly to Washington without your signing. What would be your preference?

Mr. MILLER. If you rather it would be signed----

Mr. BELIN. We do not require it to be signed.

Mr. MILLER. It makes no difference.

Mr. BELIN. We have no preference. We do not require your signing. You can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and sign.

Mr. MILLER. I will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage to not have to take off.

Mr. BELIN. All right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you very much.

There is one other thing. We have a sketch. I want to ask you to put on the sketch where you were.

Mr. MILLER. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you what we call "A. Miller Deposition Exhibit A." I am going to try and get this thing oriented here.

Here is Houston Street running north this way.

There is Elm. Here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway overpass.

Mr. MILLER. Now where this "X" is at up here, is where we was standing.

Mr. BELIN. Where it is marked "Pos. 5," there is an arrow there which I have put there, is that right?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. By the "X," which appears to be right over the overpass of Elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. That is where you were standing?

Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right, sir.

Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF FRANK E. REILLY

The testimony of Frank E. Reilly was taken at 2 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas. Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. REILLY. Frank E. Reilly.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. REILLY. 3309 Thibet, T-h-i-b-e-t [spelling].

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. REILLY. Electrician, Union Terminal.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Advising you that your deposition was to be taken?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. REILLY. I was born in Fort Worth.

Mr. BALL. How many years ago?

Mr. REILLY. I left over there when I was 17 and I am 70 now.

Mr. BALL. What kind of education do you have?

Mr. REILLY. Not too good--I went through the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. What have you done since then, generally, just in a general way--you don't need to go into great detail?

Mr. REILLY. I've been with the Terminal Co. since 1916.

Mr. BALL. You have been a railroad man all of your life, then?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you working for the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing that day?

Mr. REILLY. We had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the other end.

Mr. BALL. What was that?

Mr. REILLY. Mail conveyor.

Mr. BALL. Who were you working with?

Mr. REILLY. I was by myself--it was on a Friday.

Mr. BALL. About noon did you go down to someplace near Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. I went over to Mr. Holland's shop and then we went up there together to see the parade.

Mr. BALL. You went over to Mr. Holland's office?

Mr. REILLY. Mr. Holland's shop.

Mr. BALL. What is Mr. Holland's occupation?

Mr. REILLY. He is a signal supervisor.

Mr. BALL. For the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, where did you go?

Mr. REILLY. We taken a walk up through the overpass right there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand on the overpass?

Mr. REILLY. Well, we went over to the railing and stood there.

Mr. BALL. And with reference to what streets--were you standing over Elm, over Main, or over Commerce?

Mr. REILLY. Well, you mean when this parade came down?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. REILLY. We were between them.

Mr. BALL. Between what streets?

Mr. REILLY. Elm and Main.

Mr. BALL. I have a map here which has been used in the deposition of another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is north--this shows the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. REILLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it shows where Elm turns and goes under the railroad, the overpass.

Mr. REILLY. We were between the two.

Mr. BALL. Will you take this pen and this is Elm and here is Main, and make a mark and show me where you were standing?

Mr. REILLY. This is the overpass right there?

Mr. BALL. Yes; this is the overpass.

Mr. REILLY. We was between these two streets--there was big banisters up there and it was about like that, I guess.

Mr. BALL. We will put a mark there.

Mr. REILLY. (The witness Reilly marked the instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And I will put on that position "7"--you were standing there when the motorcade came along?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing there with you?

Mr. REILLY. I believe it was Mr. Dodd and Skinney.

Mr. BALL. And what are his initials?

Mr. REILLY. Dick Dodd.

Mr. BALL. That's R. C. Dodd, isn't it?

Mr. REILLY. I think so.

Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Union Terminal Co.?

Mr. REILLY. Foreman of the laborers.

Mr. BALL. Who else was with him?

Mr. REILLY. These two fellows here--were standing out there, but I don't know their names?

Mr. BALL. What are their names?

Mr. REILLY. I don't know their names--I don't even associate with them.

Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Holland?

Mr. REILLY. We were together.

Mr. BALL. S. M. Holland was there?

Mr. REILLY. We were together.

Mr. BALL. Holland and Dodd and you?

Mr. REILLY. And me.

Mr. BALL. Then, there were how many other men?

Mr. REILLY. Well, there were three or four--but I don't know who they were.

Mr. BALL. You have seen two of them here, haven't you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; two of them out there.

Mr. BALL. And you know one's name is----

Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know it--their name--I don't even know their name only by seeing them. I do go in there in the office once in a while to put in lamps.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of Skelton, isn't there a fellow named Skelton there?

Mr. REILLY. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. And a man named Miller?

Mr. REILLY. No.

Mr. BALL. Were you all standing at about the same location?

Mr. REILLY. All right close together.

Mr. BALL. Were there any police officers there?

Mr. REILLY. One behind me.

Mr. BALL. One behind you?

Mr. REILLY. He was standing back close to the tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be where?

Mr. REILLY. About 8 or 10 feet back of us.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other police officers there?

Mr. REILLY. On the far side.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"?

Mr. REILLY. Up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side.

Mr. BALL. It would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you remember it.

Mr. REILLY. Now, this is all tracks over here.

Mr. BALL. All tracks along the railroad overpass?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; these are all tracks in here. One of them was standing behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along here, but just how far back, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark down there for me where the two police officers were standing.

Mr. REILLY. I have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Where was the other one standing?

Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side, but I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Well, mark that "8."

Mr. REILLY. He was on the far side--and how far back--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "far side"? Do you mean he was south of you?

Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me.

Mr. BALL. You see on the map, it's marked "Elm, Main and Commerce"--this other police officer was near what?

Mr. REILLY. I wouldn't know because I wasn't facing him and there was two of them up there.

Mr. BALL. Back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you?

Mr. REILLY. No; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and west--these streets.

Mr. BALL. But the railroad overpass goes north and south?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; north and south.

Mr. BALL. Then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; behind me.

Mr. BALL. Were there two police officers behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one here----

Mr. BALL. Listen to the question--there were two police officers there, was there?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were they both behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. One was closer than the other one?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How close was the one that was closer to you?

Mr. REILLY. I have an idea about 8 or 10 feet.

Mr. BALL. And how far away was the other one?

Mr. REILLY. About the width of that overpass across--75 or 80 feet across there.

Mr. BALL. One was 8 or 10 feet from you, and the other one was 75 feet from you and they were both behind you?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the motorcade come down Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. No; not until it turned and started to come under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you first see it?

Mr. REILLY. When it turned off of Houston Street and started around.

Mr. BALL. Onto Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the first time you saw the President's car, when it turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How many people were there on the overpass at the time--at that time?

Mr. REILLY. Just what I told you.

Mr. BALL. Tell me again.

Mr. REILLY. Well, there was Holland and me and Dick Dodd and those two fellows out there and the two policemen--that's all I remember seeing out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear something?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. REILLY. Three shots.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from; what direction?

Mr. REILLY. It seemed to me like they come out of the trees.

Mr. BALL. What trees?

Mr. REILLY. On the north side of Elm Street at the corner up there.

Mr. BALL. On the north side of Elm--on what corner?

Mr. REILLY. Well, where all those trees are--you've never been down there?

Mr. BALL. Yes; I've been there, but you tell me--I want you to tell me because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing.

Mr. REILLY. Well, it's at that park where all the shrubs is up there--it's to the north of Elm Street--up the slope.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons fly?

Mr. REILLY. No; I didn't pay no attention to that.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?

Mr. REILLY. I just stood there a few minutes and then I went on down to the shop.

Mr. BALL. Which way did you walk?

Mr. REILLY. South.

Mr. BALL. South?

Mr. REILLY. Toward the post office.

Mr. BALL. Your shop is down south of that place?

Mr. REILLY. Yes; it's the other side of the station.

Mr. BALL. Who walked with you?

Mr. REILLY. Nobody.

Mr. BALL. You walked alone?

Mr. REILLY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Reilly. This will be written up and you can look it over and correct it if you wish, or you can waive your signature if you wish.

Which do you wish--do you want to come down and sign it, or do you want to waive your signature?

Mr. REILLY. No; I'll do anything you want me to.

Mr. BALL. Well, you do anything you want to--it's your option--what do you want to do?

Mr. REILLY. I'll sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right.

This young lady will write it up and call you and you can come down here and sign it. How is that?

Mr. REILLY. Well, will I have to come back?

Mr. BALL. Yes; you will.

Mr. REILLY. It is hard for me to get off.

Mr. BALL. It is--why don't you waive your signature, if it is inconvenient to you, and we will offer this diagram as Exhibit A to your deposition.

Mr. REILLY. All right.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Reilly Exhibit A," for identification.)

TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN

The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn?

Mr. BROWN. All right.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BROWN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please.

Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. BROWN. Policeman.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman?

Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training?

Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I completed 12 years of schooling, high school.

Mr. BALL. High school?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio; Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5 months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then, let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force.

Mr. BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road.

Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm?

Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm?

Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What does it cross?

Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make that turn off Elm and go up.

Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway?

Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.

Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass?

Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be your position. You were appointed to this particular spot?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.

Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it?

Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road both go under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. BROWN. James Lomax.

Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under the underpass?

Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards.

Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction?

Mr. BROWN. That would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to easterly, kind of off at an angle--I would say about from us about a 20° angle to the right.

Mr. BALL. You would be east or west?

Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that.

Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight from where you were located?

Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see would be cars.

Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down toward the underpass south?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You could see those?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this location?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they?

Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax?

Mr. BROWN. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. That's me.

Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?

Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he?

Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his three-wheeler.

Mr. BALL. On his motor?

Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass?

Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad detectives come up there and talked to us.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people?

Mr. BROWN. Underneath?

Mr. BALL. No; up above.

Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about underneath?

Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to walk.

Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing?

Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us.

Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you know.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards?

Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.

Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't.

Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view.

Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?

Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop?

Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. BROWN. Three.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?

Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would you like me to tell you?

Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.

Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did because I saw them flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them.

Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?

Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the--between us and the, this overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.

Mr. BALL. You did?

Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at least it smelled like it to me.

Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?

Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that Texas----

Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?

Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?

Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?

Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that building because actually it seemed to come from there.

Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?

Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because they just seemed to all take off.

Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?

Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?

Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.

Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?

Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened; of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the fact it did.

Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept checking that area through there and, of course, there were people all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad right-of-way through there.

Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where Elm goes underneath?

Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.

Mr. BALL. More than one?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area?

Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around there, which we did.

Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked?

Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was several cars parked all around that building.

Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five officers taking license numbers.

Mr. BALL. How long were you around there?

Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish?

Mr. BROWN. You mean today?

Mr. BALL. No; it will be a week or so.

Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have?

Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign it----

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and sign it. It is your option; you can do either way.

Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it.

Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF EARLE V. BROWN RESUMED

The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 2:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. You have been sworn, so we will just continue with your deposition, and your name is Earle V. Brown?

Mr. BROWN. Right; E-a-r-l-e (spelling).

Mr. BALL. Mr. Brown, I have had a map made here which I would like to have you inspect here. The railroad overpass is shown--that runs in a north and south direction?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And Stemmons Freeway overpass is shown--that runs north and south, doesn't it?

Mr. BROWN. Right.

Mr. BALL. Were you on either one of those overpasses?

Mr. BROWN. Either one of those two there?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. BROWN. On this overpass here--this TP Railroad overpass.

Mr. BALL. The overpass that runs in an east and west direction?

Mr. BROWN. Right--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position on the overpass?

Mr. BROWN. Well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end and we would walk the tracks and come around there.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw the President's car turn on Houston and Elm Street?

Mr. BROWN. I was on the catwalk.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark your position?

Mr. BROWN. I would be--approximately in the center. (Instrument marked by the witness, as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Have you marked the place where you were?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; it would be about the center of that.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you heard the shots?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; I didn't see anybody there.

Mr. BALL. You don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where Elm goes under the overpass or where Main goes under the overpass--you don't recall seeing anybody?

Mr. BROWN. No; I don't recall seeing anyone there.

Mr. BALL. You told me yesterday you saw some officers.

Mr. BROWN. Well, that would be the police officers--would be the only ones I saw.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who those officers were?

Mr. BROWN. No, sir; at the time I did, but I wouldn't know now.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer on Stemmons Freeway where we have positioned (1), (2), and (3) on this diagram?

Mr. BROWN. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Now, the place where you marked your location--we will mark that as Brown Exhibits--the X marks the position of Brown, is that correct?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That's all. Thank you very much.

Mr. BROWN. All right. (Instrument marked by the reporter as "Brown Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. BROWN. All right.

TESTIMONY OF ROYCE G. SKELTON

The testimony of Royce G. Skelton was taken at 2:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SKELTON. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please, for the record?

Mr. SKELTON. Royce G. Skelton.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. SKELTON. I am a mail clerk at the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work?

Mr. SKELTON. At the Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and where did you come from?

Mr. SKELTON. I was born in Henrietta, Tex., May 25, 1940.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school?

Mr. SKELTON. I attended all grade schools in Wichita Falls and I graduated from Wichita Falls High School.

Mr. BALL. Tell me where you went to school.

Mr. SKELTON. Wichita Falls through high school and I attended 1 year at Midwestern University.

Mr. BALL. And when did you go to work for the railroad?

Mr. SKELTON. February 1, 1963.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do?

Mr. SKELTON. Mail clerk.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did you watch the parade, the motorcade of the President?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I went to the triple overpass about 12:20--I think it was 12:15, or something like that.

Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down there with?

Mr. SKELTON. Austin Miller and myself.

Mr. BALL. Where does he work?

Mr. SKELTON. He is a mail clerk also in the same company.

Mr. BALL. Where did you stand to watch the parade?

Mr. SKELTON. Well, we were directly over Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Directly over Elm?

Mr. SKELTON. Maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on the street.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else there on the overpass?

Mr. SKELTON. There were quite a few people up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you know any of them?

Mr. SKELTON. Well, I know by sight--I knew the electrician, an old man that's an electrician.

Mr. BALL. Frank Reilly?

Mr. SKELTON. Is that his name?

Mr. BALL. The man that was here a moment ago--his name is Reilly.

Mr. SKELTON. I know him when I see him.

Mr. BALL. Yes----

Mr. SKELTON. And Austin Miller, of course.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Dodd, the employee of the railroad?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; like I say, I recognized them off and on when I see them around there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officers there?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes; this man right here--they say it was him--I don't recall whether it was or not.

Mr. BALL. Who--Mr. Brown?

Mr. SKELTON. The one who was in here just a while ago--they say he was the one up there, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. You didn't recognize him there?

Mr. SKELTON. No; I didn't recognize him.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you saw some police officers up there?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. SKELTON. There was one standing directly behind me, I think, or in the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. By "far side," you mean where?

Mr. SKELTON. It would be back on this side.

Mr. BALL. It would be south?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; that would be the east side--isn't it?

Mr. BALL. Elm runs east and west.

Mr. SKELTON. It would be the west side.

Mr. BALL. It would be west?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on Stemmons--I noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad overpass on Stemmons.

Mr. BALL. How many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad overpass?

Mr. SKELTON. Two, I would say, sir. That's all I saw.

Mr. BALL. And how many men did you see standing right near on the railroad overpass over Elm, just approximately?

Mr. SKELTON. Eight, including the officer--eight or nine.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn on Elm Street?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir; I saw the car carrying the Presidential flag turn.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear something soon after that?

Mr. SKELTON. Just about the same time the car straightened up--got around the corner--I heard two shots, but I didn't know at that time they were shots.

Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?

Mr. SKELTON. Well, I couldn't tell then, they were still so far from where I was.

Mr. BALL. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were standing?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right there--more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see the smoke coming up off the cement.

Mr. BALL. You saw some smoke come off of the cement?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what direction?

Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car.

Mr. BALL. From the President's car?

Mr. SKELTON. Right around the motorcycles and all that--I couldn't distinguish because it was too far away.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stand there?

Mr. SKELTON. I stood there from about 12:15 until the time the President was shot.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. SKELTON. I think I heard four--I mean--I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. You think you heard four?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot?

Mr. SKELTON. Not very long--just as soon as the cars sped away and everything was in a big commotion--we ran down to listen to the radio. We couldn't get anything off of that--we heard that the President had been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. He said he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the sheriff's office.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I didn't see anything like that--any pigeons at all.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all I have. This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can waive your signature.

Which do you want to do?

Mr. SKELTON. I will waive my signature. I am sure it is all right.

Mr. BALL. That is fine. Thank you very much.

Mr. SKELTON. There's one thing I could say--you have that other report?

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. SKELTON. About when I saw one of the bullets where it hit on the pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of where you say Oswald was.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--let me ask you some questions about that.

Tell me, now, about the smoke--did you see some smoke?

Mr. SKELTON. After those two shots, and the car came on down closer to the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots I heard, but one of them--I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a bullet--I take for granted it was--hit in the left front of the President's car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it--away from the building.

Mr. BALL. You mean there was some smoke in the building?

Mr. SKELTON. No; on the pavement--you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard object it will scatter--it will spread.

Mr. BALL. Which way did it spread?

Mr. SKELTON. It spread just right in line, like you said.

Mr. BALL. I haven't said anything--tell me what you think it was?

Mr. SKELTON. Like I said--south of us--it would be southwest, you know, in a direct line from the Texas Depository.

Mr. BALL. I see. In other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is that right?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes.

Mr. BALL. All right. Thanks very much.

I'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were standing. Here is Elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing.

Mr. SKELTON. I was about right there (marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball).

Mr. BALL. By that "X" we will put the word "Skelton" and that is where you were standing with your friend?

Mr. SKELTON. Approximately--yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around there?

Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; I just stated to your secretary that I heard people say they did, but I didn't.

Mr. BALL. But you did see something light on the street?

Mr. SKELTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About where?

Mr. SKELTON. A bullet--let's see--this is kind of out of proportion [referring to diagram], and I would say the bullet hit about right here [indicating on diagram].

Mr. BALL. Then, let's mark that as "Skelton (2)" and we will make the first Skelton number (1) and then Skelton number (2), and this X mark here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go?

Mr. SKELTON. Just like it was going there.

Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray was going.

Mr. SKELTON. (Marks the diagram with arrow.)

Mr. BALL. That's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit Shelton exhibit A and attach it to your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Skelton exhibit A for identification)

Mr. BALL. Thank you and that is all.

Mr. SKELTON. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF S. M. HOLLAND

The testimony of S. M Holland was taken at 2:20 p.m., on April 8, 1964 in the Office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. S M Holland was accompanied by his attorney, Mr. Balford Morrison.

Mr. STERN. Would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HOLLAND. I do.

Mr. STERN. Sit down, please.

You have recorded Mr. Morrison's presence?

The Reporter. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Mr Holland, you have received a letter from the Commission asking you to come and testify today?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. As you know, the Commission is inquiring into all of the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and we want your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination from the place you were standing. May we have, for the record, your name and residence address?

Mr. HOLLAND. S. M. Holland, 1119 Lucille Street, Irving, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your occupation?

Mr. HOLLAND. Signal supervisor for Union Terminal Railroad.

Mr. STERN. How long have you been employed by that organization?

Mr. HOLLAND. Union Terminal since 1938.

Mr. STERN. Now on Friday November 22, will you describe what you did concerning the President's visit and where you were?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, about 11:00 o'clock, a couple of policemen and a plain clothesman came up on top of the triple underpass, and we had some men working up there, and I knew that they was going to have a parade, and I left my office, and walked up to the underpass to talk to the policemen. And they asked me during the parade if I would come back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. That is the railroad people.

Mr. STERN. Where is your office Mr Holland?

Mr. HOLLAND. At the Union Terminal Station.

Mr. STERN. Is that within walking distance of the triple overpass?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, it is. About--less than a quarter of a mile, a very short distance.

Mr. STERN. And these policemen that you spoke to, there were 3 altogether?

Mr. HOLLAND. Two--there were 2 city policemen and 1 man in plainclothes. I didn't talk to him. I talked to the city policemen.

Mr. STERN. You don't know what his affiliation was?

Mr. HOLLAND. I know he was a plainclothes detective or FBI agent or some thing like that, but I don't know, and I told him I would be back and after lunch I would go up there.

Mr. STERN. Approximately what time did you arrive up there?

Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, I arrived up there, I guess, about a quarter until 12, and I would identify each person that came up there that he worked at the Union Terminal, and department so-and-so.

Mr. STERN. Whom did you see there at 11:45 when you returned, from then until 12:30?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would have to try to remember who all was up there then. There was Mr. Reilly and Mr. R. C. Dodd.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Reilly?

Mr. HOLLAND. Reilly.

Mr. STERN. Who was----

Mr. HOLLAND. R. C. Dodd, and N. H. Potter and Luke Winburn.

Mr. STERN. Luke?

Mr. HOLLAND. Winburn.

Mr. STERN. And----

Mr. HOLLAND. And a fellow by the name of Johnson, he works in the car department.

Mr. STERN. Johnson.

Mr. HOLLAND. And there was another fellow who worked at the car department, tall, blond-headed boy, and I can't remember his name.

Mr. STERN. That makes six people so far. Are these all employees of----

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Of the terminal?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the Katy, and one for the T. & P., that I don't know their names, but I do know that they were railroad people. They were over on business. Working on those business cars, and one of them was a Katy employee, and one was a T. & P. employee.

Mr. STERN. Could you give me their full names?

Mr. HOLLAND. Texas & Pacific, and the Missouri, Kansas, Texas Railroad.

Mr. STERN. You don't know the names of those particular men?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. STERN. Did you see them here today?

Mr. HOLLAND. I know the policemen talked to them and got identification from them.

Mr. STERN. Yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the U.S. attorney's office just before----

Mr. HOLLAND. No; neither one of those.

Mr. STERN. Did you recognize either of those two men?

Mr. HOLLAND. One of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an electrician at Union Terminal. The large fellow is a cabdriver.

Mr. STERN. The electrician, do you know his name?

Mr. HOLLAND. Frank Reilly.

Mr. STERN. There were two other men out there. Perhaps you didn't notice them. I spoke to them after I spoke to you.

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, at the time the parade got started they was, I guess--Davey Cowzert was up there, too.

Mr. STERN. But, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as being people who were on the overpass that day?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. HOLLAND. There was two people I did recognize and that was the cabdriver and Mr. Reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up there with me.

Mr. STERN. You recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was on the triple overpass at the time?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Fine. Now, another name just occurred to you of someone else.

Mr. HOLLAND. Cowzert [spelling] C-o-w-z-e-r-t, Cowzert.

Mr. STERN. Is he also an employee?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; he is.

Mr. STERN. Were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time the Presidential motorcade----

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Came into view?

Mr. HOLLAND. One more, if I can remember his name. One that run around the corner of the fence with me. He was right behind me--why in the world--he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around the fence to what was happening.

Mr. STERN. Before we get to that, how about the police. How many police officers were on the overpass at the time?

Mr. HOLLAND. There were two Dallas Police officers up there at that time.

Mr. STERN. Tell me if this is correct, Mr. Holland. At the time the Presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on the overpass there were two uniformed Dallas Police, and the following employees of the Terminal Co.: Yourself, Mr. Reilly, Mr. Dodd, Mr. Potter, Mr. Winburn, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Cowzert, and perhaps one other man?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. STERN. So, that would be eight including yourself, plus two employees of the railroad. One of the T. & P. and one of the Katy?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right. At that time. Now, like I said a while ago, by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but I can't remember who it was or their names, because----

Mr. STERN. Before the motorcade started?

Mr. HOLLAND. Before the motorcade started.

Mr. STERN. These were people you recognized as employees?

Mr. HOLLAND. Some of them, and some of them I did not recognize, but I think he was asking for credentials.

Mr. STERN. The uniformed policeman?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep them----

Mr. STERN. Yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being terminal or railroad employees?

Mr. HOLLAND. When they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose for going up there.

Mr. STERN. So, that it is fair to say that at the time the President's motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass that you didn't know either as Terminal Co. employees, or railroad employees, or as a policeman?

Mr. HOLLAND. Wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a few came up there right in the last moments.

Mr. STERN. There were? Tell us about that.

Mr. HOLLAND. That I couldn't recognize. There wasn't too many people up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their identification, and----

Mr. STERN. Is this just about the time of the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND. Just about the time, or just prior to it, because there was a few up there that I didn't--that I didn't recognize myself.

Mr. STERN. Had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the police?

Mr. HOLLAND. He was checking them as they came on top of the underpass.

Mr. STERN. Did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman for identification?

Mr. HOLLAND. I think everyone was checked by some person.

Mr. STERN. Yes. Can you estimate the number of people that were on the overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I would estimate that there was between 14 to 18 people.

Mr. STERN. Now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it?

Mr. HOLLAND. Turned off the Main Street--in front of the county jail.

Mr. STERN. Turning right off of Main onto Houston?

Mr. HOLLAND. It was coming down Main and turned off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. STERN. At that time will you show me on this drawing where you were and just make a mark and put the No. 1 next to that mark. That is where you were at that time? Roughly in the middle of the overpass over Elm Street?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. STERN. And where, in relation to the concrete fence that----

Mr. HOLLAND. Picket fence or concrete?

Mr. STERN. No; the concrete.

Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, the concrete banister?

Mr. STERN. The concrete banister. Were you right at the banister?

Mr. HOLLAND. I was; would you like to see the exact location?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HOLLAND. This is my son standing in the exact location I was in [indicating].

Mr. STERN. Off the record a moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Well, then, we'll mark this as Exhibit B, reserving Exhibit A for this drawing, and Exhibit B is a photograph you took on Saturday, November 23, of your son standing in the position at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the motorcade came into view.

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Fine. That is quite a good picture. At that time, can you indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two police officers who were on the overpass?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as well as I remember, one police officer was standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me.

Mr. STERN. Put a "2" where you believe he was standing.

Mr. HOLLAND. He was standing in close enough so that he could see, but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, I think, unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned there. I didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time I saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about [indicating].

Mr. STERN. Standing almost directly behind you?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. But, on the other side of the overpass, facing west?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; all this way, across the tracks. See, these are all railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately before this motorcade turned this. Now, after they turned, I don't know, but--because I was watching them.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Would you put a "3" where you believe he was standing and can you indicate on there where you believe the other 12 to 15 or 16 people were who were on the overpass at this time.

Mr. HOLLAND. Well----

Mr. STERN. Were they all standing in one group?

Mr. HOLLAND. There was a pretty close group between this column here, and this place right in there. In other words, if I can--had a shot of it, we could find that pretty close. I don't know that I have one.

Mr. STERN. What you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the overpass from one side of Elm Street to the other.

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; this is one side of Elm Street, and this would be the other. If you would get over here there would be a banister or something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in here, over to right in here [indicating].

Mr. STERN. All right. Now----

Mr. HOLLAND. And this bench runs right along similar to that, up here to this [indicating].

Mr. STERN. That is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that runs from the end of the concrete banister?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Over to a little----

Mr. HOLLAND. Little house there.

Mr. STERN. Little----

Mr. HOLLAND. What do they call that thing?

Mr. MORRISON. I don't know.

Mr. STERN. Little pavilion? Little concrete pavilion?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Now, what did you observe from that point on, Mr. Holland?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I observed the motorcade when it turned off of Main Street onto Houston Street and back on Elm Street. There was two young ladies right across from this sign, which would be, I judge--would say they were standing about here [indicating].

Mr. STERN. Put No. 4 there, please. Fine.

Mr. HOLLAND. And the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the President was waving to the people on this side [indicating].

Mr. STERN. That is the north side of Elm Street?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; on the north side.

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. HOLLAND. And she was looking in this direction [indicating].

Mr. STERN. "She," is Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. HOLLAND. His wife. And about that time----

Mr. STERN. Was looking in a southern direction?

Mr. HOLLAND. In the southern direction.

Mr. STERN. South side of Elm Street?

Mr. HOLLAND. And about that time he went over like that [indicating], and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could tell.

Mr. STERN. Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward and raised your right hand?

Mr. HOLLAND. Pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily.

Mr. STERN. With his right hand?

Mr. HOLLAND. His right hand; and that was the first report that I heard.

Mr. STERN. What did it sound like?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report.

Mr. STERN. With his right hand out?

Mr. HOLLAND. Turning to his right.

Mr. STERN. To his right?

Mr. HOLLAND. And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat, and about that time Mrs. Kennedy was looking at these girls over here [indicating]. The girls standing--now one of them was taking a picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned around facing the President and Governor Connally. In other words, she realized what was happening, I guess.

Now, I mean, that was apparently that--she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in--I'd say along in here [indicating].

Mr. STERN. How do you know that? Did you observe that?

Mr. HOLLAND. I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second----

Mr. STERN. Did you hear a third report?

Mr. HOLLAND. I heard a third report and I counted four shots and about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of trees--[indicating].

Mr. STERN. Now, you are indicating trees on the north side of Elm Street?

Mr. HOLLAND. These trees right along here [indicating].

Mr. STERN. Let's mark this Exhibit C and draw a circle around the trees you are referring to.

Mr. HOLLAND. Right in there. (Indicating.)

There was a shot, a report, I don't know whether it was a shot. I can't say that. And a puff of smoke came out about 6 or 8 feet above the ground right out from under those trees. And at just about this location from where I was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. It wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots.

Mr. STERN. What number would that have been in the----

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, that would--they were so close together.

Mr. STERN. The second and third or the third and fourth?

Mr. HOLLAND. The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.

Mr. STERN. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?

Mr. HOLLAND. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports.

Mr. STERN. You have no doubt about that?

Mr. HOLLAND. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of of the FBI several days after?

Mr. HOLLAND. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.

Mr. STERN. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at that time?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. You were certain then?

Mr. HOLLAND. I was certain then and I--in that statement I believe that I----

Mr. STERN. Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.

Mr. HOLLAND. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of smoke and heard the report from under those trees.

Mr. STERN. Did you realize that these were shots then?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.

Mr. STERN. You did?

Mr. HOLLAND. When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.

Mr. STERN. What did you then do?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, immediately after the shots was fired, I run around the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone up there behind the fence.

Mr. STERN. That is the picket fence?

Mr. HOLLAND. That is the picket fence.

Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street?

Mr. HOLLAND. Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was just a big--it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15 policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it, and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to the office and took me back up to the courthouse.

Mr. STERN. Did he know you personally?

Mr. HOLLAND. No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the statement, and made--made out the statement before they found out the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that policeman.

I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately after the motorcade had passed through there.

Mr STERN. What was your impression about the source of these noises, if you had one?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I was.

Mr. STERN. East on Elm?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have the least idea that it was up any higher, but I thought the shot was coming--coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it sounded like to me from where I was.

Mr. STERN. You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I take it, that the shots were coming from your area?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far as the sound was concerned?

Mr. HOLLAND. As far as the sound was concerned they did not.

Mr. STERN. Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any way unusual?

Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, no; no.

Mr. STERN. All right. Off the record.

(Off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit you made that you described a few moments ago?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Would you read that.

Mr. HOLLAND. "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come back and tell Bill."

That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too.

Mr. STERN. I'm sure it was.

Mr. HOLLAND. Stand there and watch two or three men get killed----

Mr. STERN. Now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, thought you heard four shots at that time?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. HOLLAND. But, two of them was rather close together, though.

Mr. STERN. So close do you think that might have been one shot?

Mr. HOLLAND. No, it was four.

Mr. STERN. You are clear there were four?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; it was different sounds, different reports.

Mr. STERN. All right. Mr. Morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Holland to clarify any points that we discussed?

Mr. MORRISON. Mr. Holland, is there anything you might add to this?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the only thing that I remember now that I didn't then, I remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot. I'd say 3 foot by 2 foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. I guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud up on the bumper of that station wagon.

Mr. STERN. This was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? Well, why don't you put the Number "5" approximately where that car would have been.

Mr. HOLLAND. If we could call this the arcade [indicating]----

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. HOLLAND. And one, two, three, I think it would have been just about here [indicating].

Mr. STERN. All right.

Mr. MORRISON. That is Elm Street. It would be behind the fence, wouldn't it?

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, I have got the fence running up here, and this car would be back in there [indicating]. This is the trees out here, which would--and that is approximately the same location as--the car and the trees that I saw the smoke would probably be the same location.

Mr. STERN. All right. And this was a station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. Now, the reason I didn't think so much about that at the time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law enforcement officers and I thought, well, if there is anything to that they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy.

Mr. STERN. Tracks you saw in the mud?

Mr. HOLLAND. It was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted them, I imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one location. It was just----

Mr. STERN. And then you saw some mud on the bumper?

Mr. HOLLAND. Mud on the bumper in two spots.

Mr. STERN. As if someone had cleaned his foot, or----

Mr. HOLLAND. Well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on the bumper to see over the fence.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. Because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you could----

Mr. STERN. Was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall the----

Mr. HOLLAND. They searched all the cars in that location.

Mr. STERN. Did this occur to you----

Mr. HOLLAND. It occurred to me immediately when I saw it there; yes.

Mr. STERN. And you thought about it later in the day?

Mr. HOLLAND. I thought about it that night.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. In fact, I went to bed--it was about a week there I couldn't sleep, much, brother, and I thought about it that night, and I have thought about it a lot of times since then.

Mr. STERN. Did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I didn't go back that afternoon, because I spent the rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of your Federal Agents went out there then and Secret Service men. It was just a beehive.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. HOLLAND. In a matter of a few minutes.

Mr. STERN. Did you tell any of the Federal officers, or any of the Dallas Police officers about it?

Mr. HOLLAND. I don't think I did.

Mr. STERN. This is really the first time----

Mr. HOLLAND. This is the first time that I have discussed it, that I remember. Now, I might have told in our conversation. I don't remember that, but I don't think I did.

Mr. STERN. I am not aware of any other occasion in which you did.

Mr. MORRISON. You thought the officers there would take care of that?

Mr. HOLLAND. I thought that the officers would take care of it because there were so many there, I thought they would take care of everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and I went on back to my office.

Mr. STERN. When you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked?

Mr. HOLLAND. Went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go.

Mr. STERN. So, you would have passed where this station wagon was?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Or, that area?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; immediately, but I turned around, see, and went to searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there then and that is when I walked back to the car there and noticed the tracks there in one little spot.

Mr. STERN. When you first came around, that was quite soon after the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And did you notice anything about this station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. I was in front of the cars, then I went in front of the cars.

Mr. STERN. In front of the cars----

Mr. HOLLAND. The cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and I came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them.

Mr. STERN. And that was later you came behind the station wagon?

Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after I got up there, and 3 or 4 minutes after I got up to the end of the fence.

Mr. STERN. This number of cars, this is an area in which cars are regularly parked?

Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.

Mr. STERN. A parking area for the School Book Depository?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and people over to the courthouse. They park in there.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. HOLLAND. Sheriff's department parks in there. District attorneys' cars park in there. It is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that 25 cents. Don't put that down. Might get in trouble.

Now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand.

Mr. STERN. Toward----

Mr. HOLLAND. The location that----

Mr. STERN. Where you saw the puff of smoke?

Mr. HOLLAND. Where I saw the puff of smoke. And another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot.

Mr. STERN. Go ahead. This is at the time of the----

Mr. HOLLAND. At the time of the----

Mr. STERN. That the shots were fired?

Mr. HOLLAND. The shots was fired.

Mr. STERN. Two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade?

Mr. HOLLAND. In the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his----

Mr. STERN. Did you see anything further involving those two?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; I ran around, I was going around the corner of the fence.

Mr. STERN. When they were coming up the incline?

Mr. HOLLAND. When that happened.

Mr. STERN. But, nothing further came of that, that you observed?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Did you talk to them?

Mr. HOLLAND. No.

Mr. STERN. Anything else occur to you?

Mr. HOLLAND. No; that is about all of it. If I have been of any help, I am tickled.

Mr. STERN. You certainly have. I appreciate very much your coming here today. Our reporter, Mr. Holland, will transcribe your testimony, and you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly to the Commission. Either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you prefer.

Mr. MORRISON. I prefer that he read it and sign it.

Mr. STERN. Fine. Then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon as his transcript is ready to read.

Mr. MORRISON. I would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the authorities in any way?

Mr. HOLLAND. I surely will.

Mr. MORRISON. To clear this up?

Mr. HOLLAND. I sure will.

Mr. MORRISON. And you and have--you and I have been close personal friends for over 10 years, haven't we?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.

Mr. MORRISON. And you wanted me to come down here because you thought you would be nervous, and if I were with you maybe you would be less nervous?

Mr. HOLLAND. That's correct, because I was real nervous when I went over to that sheriff's office that afternoon.

Mr. MORRISON. I believe that is all.

Mr. STERN. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF J. W. FOSTER

The testimony of J. W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FOSTER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Foster, we have requested Chief Curry to have you come in and testify in this matter before the Commission. This Commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And my name is Joseph A. Ball. I am a staff officer, staff counsel with the Commission. I would like to ask you some questions about this matter. You are willing to testify, aren't you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your address?

Mr. FOSTER. 309 Cooper Street. I just moved.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. FOSTER. I am a police officer.

Mr. BALL. Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Patrolman?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been on the police department?

Mr. FOSTER. Nine years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. FOSTER. In Hill County, town of Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. FOSTER. Well----

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. FOSTER. Hillsboro.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. FOSTER. Ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. FOSTER. Service.

Mr. BALL. What branch? In the Army or Navy----

Mr. FOSTER. Army.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. Carpenter, worked for about 9 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. Come to work here.

Mr. BALL. On the police department?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work were you doing in November of 1963, for the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FOSTER. I was working in the traffic division, investigation of accidents.

Mr. BALL. Investigation of accidents?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a special assignment on November 22?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 1963. And what was that?

Mr. FOSTER. That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it.

Mr. BALL. That was the overpass, the railroad overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you call it the triple overpass, why?

Mr. FOSTER. Three streets coming through there.

Mr. BALL. What are they?

Mr. FOSTER. Commerce, Main, and Elm.

Mr. BALL. I have a map that I will--just a moment. I will get it.

Mr. FOSTER. All right.

(Off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight?

Mr. FOSTER. I was standing approximately along the--I believe the south curb of Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. On the east side of the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then was there another officer assigned to that same position?

Mr. FOSTER. He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. FOSTER. He was on the west side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. You were on the east side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BALL. Let's go back on the record. Now, we have a map here which we will mark as Exhibit A for your deposition.

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and south direction, is that right?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that yard is to the north and west of the Texas Book Depository Building?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there.

Mr. BALL. In what general direction from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FOSTER. They have yards to the north, and some to the south of it down below the Terminal.

Mr. BALL. There are yards south?

Mr. FOSTER. They have yards here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. That is north and west?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And also south?

Mr. FOSTER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see the President's motorcade come into sight?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see it? Where was it when you saw it?

Mr. FOSTER. When I first saw it it was coming off of Main Street onto Houston.

Mr. BALL. And did you keep it in sight?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, where were you standing?

Mr. FOSTER. Standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass over Elm Street there. About the south curb.

Mr. BALL. Over, above the south curb of Elm?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were standing and write your initials right next to that "X".

J.--what are the initials?

Mr. FOSTER. J. W.

Mr. BALL. J. W. F. That marks where you were standing.

Mr. FOSTER. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the President's motorcade in sight after it turned?

Mr. FOSTER. Other than watching the men that were standing on the overpass there with me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you do that?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you permit some people to be there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. FOSTER. People that were working for the railroad there.

Mr. BALL. Were there many people?

Mr. FOSTER. About 10 or 11.

Mr. BALL. Where were they standing?

Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along the east banister.

Mr. BALL. The east banister?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir; in front of me.

Mr. BALL. In front of you. Will you make a mark there and show the general area where they were standing?

Mr. FOSTER. They were standing along this area here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people were standing?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you looking toward them?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have another officer with you there on that duty that day?

Mr. FOSTER. Not on that side. He was on the west side.

Mr. BALL. He was on the west side?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was his name?

Mr. FOSTER. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. Do you know exactly where he was when you were at the position you have indicated?

Mr. FOSTER. No; I don't. The only thing I know, he was supposed to be on the west side of the banister.

Mr. BALL. You were looking to the east?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me what you saw happen after the President's car passed--turned onto Elm from Houston.

Mr. FOSTER. After he came onto Elm I was watching the men up on the track more than I was him. Then I heard a loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. Kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the second one. I moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. Then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. I ran after I saw what was happening.

Mr. BALL. What did you see was happening?

Mr. FOSTER. Saw the President slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up.

Mr. BALL. You saw that, did you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, at that time I broke and ran around to my right--to the left--around to the bookstore.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source of the sounds, the direction of the sounds?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What?

Mr. FOSTER. It came from back in toward the corner of Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. BALL. That was your impression at that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was any shot fired from the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone with a weapon there?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go from there?

Mr. FOSTER. Went on around the back side of the bookstore.

Mr. BALL. Immediately?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Backside? What do you mean by that?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, I guess you would say the northwest side of it.

Mr. BALL. Were there any people in the railroad yards around the bookstore at that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. There was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather back in that area.

Mr. BALL. At that time?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired?

Mr. FOSTER. No; other than people that had come up there and I sent them back down the roadway.

Mr. BALL. I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had sent them away?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got over to the School Book Depository Building, what did you do?

Mr. FOSTER. I was standing around in back there to see that no one came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check the--all the railroad cars down there.

Mr. BALL. Who was that sergeant?

Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant came up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you search the railroad cars?

Mr. FOSTER. No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to report back to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FOSTER. At the front of the Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Sawyer there?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell your sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you thought the shots came from?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you then tell them?

Mr. FOSTER. Told them it came from that vicinity up around Elm and Houston.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to Sawyer?

Mr. FOSTER. Told that to Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. BALL. You told that to Sawyer?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell that to the sergeant?

Mr. FOSTER. I don't know whether I told the sergeant that or not.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. FOSTER. I moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if I could find where any of the shots hit.

Mr. BALL. Find anything?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location.

Mr. BALL. Hit the turf?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on the street in any place?

Mr. FOSTER. No, a manhole cover. It was hit. They caught the manhole cover right at the corner and----

Mr. BALL. You saw a mark on a manhole cover did you?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole cover. Do you recognize that picture?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does the picture show--tell me what it shows there.

Mr. FOSTER. This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the turf right here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. See any mark on the manhole cover?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir; I don't. Not on the--well, it is on the turf, on the concrete, right in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw that?

Mr. FOSTER. Should have been approximately along here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Make it deep enough to make a mark. The arrow marks the position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was not on the manhole cover?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Went into the turf?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you recover any bullet?

Mr. FOSTER. No, sir. It ricocheted on out.

Mr. BALL. Did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot?

Mr. FOSTER. I called them to the location.

Mr. BALL. And told them to make a picture?

Mr. FOSTER. No, I didn't tell them. Called them to the spot and let them take it. Can I see the picture?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir. Is this the picture?

Mr. FOSTER. That resembles the picture.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as "B," then. Mark it as "B" so that we have "A" and "B" now.

Officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer?

Mr. FOSTER. Well, it doesn't matter.

Mr. BALL. Suit yourself. You make the choice.

Mr. FOSTER. I would just as soon go ahead and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will notify you and you can get in here and sign it.

Mr. FOSTER. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you. One moment, please.

Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster?

Mr. FOSTER. Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. BALL. You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass?

Mr. FOSTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How did you determine they were railroad employees?

Mr. FOSTER. By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees.

Mr. BALL. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF J. C. WHITE

The testimony of J. C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. All right, will you stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHITE. I do.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. WHITE. J. C. White.

Mr. BALL. What is your residence?

Mr. WHITE. 2303 Klondite.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. WHITE. Policeman.

Mr. BALL. Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. For a request to----

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to come here by your----

Mr. WHITE. Captain.

Mr. BALL. Which captain?

Mr. WHITE. Lawrence.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. We want to ask you some questions about information that you might have that might aid us in that investigation.

I am a Staff officer of the Commission named Ball. Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. During the course of our investigation in Dallas we discovered that you and the man that you were working with that day, Mr. J. W. Foster, knew of some facts that might aid us in the investigation. We asked Chief Curry if we could have you come up here and testify, and I guess that is the reason you are here.

You are willing to testify, are you not?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us whatever you know about it.

Mr. WHITE. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Well, I can ask you.

Mr. WHITE. Okay.

Mr. BALL. I will ask you questions. Where were you born?

Mr. WHITE. Van Alstyne, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. WHITE. Van Alystyne, Tex.

Mr. BALL. How far through school?

Mr. WHITE. Ninth grade there.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. I went into the Army.

Mr. BALL. And how long were you in the Army?

Mr. WHITE. About 3 years.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. Went to driving a city bus.

Mr. BALL. How long did you drive a city bus?

Mr. WHITE. 6 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. WHITE. Joined the Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mr. WHITE. 1956.

Mr. BALL. And what are you now?

Mr. WHITE. Accident investigator.

Mr. BALL. And your rank is a patrolman?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, did you have an assignment?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WHITE. On the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. And were you there with someone?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. WHITE. J. W. Foster.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. WHITE. Standing on the west side of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to Elm, Main or Commerce as they go underneath the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Approximately at the north curb of Main Street.

Mr. BALL. Approximately the north curb of Main on the corner of the north curb of Main? That would be----

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to get another copy of this map. Let me see. I can use this. Mark this as Exhibit A to your deposition. Now, a diagram that was drawn by a patrolman, Joe Murphy, and he has made some marks and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. I want you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it.

You have made an "X".

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have initialed J. C. White, is that right?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Over the--what would be the west curb of Main?

Mr. WHITE. North curb of Main.

Mr. BALL. The north curb?

Mr. WHITE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. North curb of Main?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And west side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is there a rail there?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day?

Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. WHITE. None.

Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon?

Mr. WHITE. Not on my side.

Mr. BALL. They did not?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were they?

Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass.

Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company.

Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company?

Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails.

Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you?

Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and--a big long freight train, and I did not see it.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel over on the--would it be the----

Mr. WHITE. East side?

Mr. BALL. East side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many people?

Mr. WHITE. About 10, approximately. I didn't count them.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any shots?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Didn't?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic.

Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Freight train was going through at the time?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Making noise?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; noisy train.

Mr. BALL. Mr. White, Mr. Foster was on the east side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and submitted to you for your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature. Which do you wish to do?

Mr. WHITE. You said a while ago to him it would be written up like this? Is that correct?

Mr. BALL. No, it will be written up in the form of a deposition.

Mr. WHITE. I will waive.

Mr. BALL. You waive it. Okay. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF JOE E. MURPHY

The testimony of Joe E. Murphy was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MURPHY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. MURPHY. Joe E. Murphy, 2509 Winthrop; (spelling) W-i-n-t-h-r-o-p, Drive.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. MURPHY. Police officer.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Department?

Mr. MURPHY. I am in my 21st year.

Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. MURPHY. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. MURPHY. High school--St. Joseph High School here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. You went all through school here in Dallas, did you?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, I played pro baseball for about 2 years, Class D--West Texas and New Mexico League. After that I went to work for the Humble Oil and Refining Co. in Baytown. I was down there about 2 years and came back to Dallas and then I went to work on the police force.

Mr. BALL. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are a patrolman, are you?

Mr. MURPHY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a three-wheeler?

Mr. MURPHY. A three-wheeler--yes.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass--the Stemmons Freeway overpass northbound at Elm Street--over Elm.

Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have?

Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.

Mr. BALL. Now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show your position, is that right? (Reporter marked instrument--Murphy Exhibit A, for identification.)

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And you have drawn a position there as to where you were standing, is that right?

Mr. MURPHY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And where you parked your three-wheeler?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. All right, mark the place where you were standing as Position 1, using an "X".

Mr. MURPHY. All right. (Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And your three-wheeler was beside you?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; right on the shoulder.

Mr. BALL. Were there any other officers on that overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; there were two more about--oh, a 100 feet south of me--to slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered the Stemmons Freeway north entrance.

Mr. BALL. Now where were they located--and, did they as the motorcade came down Elm Street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; they did.

Mr. BALL. Will you put their positions on the Stemmons Freeway overpass at the time the motorcade came west on Elm, and mark it (2) and (3).

Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of those officers that were (2) and (3)?

Mr. MURPHY. I can't recall. I know them but I can't recall who they were.

Mr. BALL. Were they three-wheeler officers too, do they drive three-wheelers?

Mr. MURPHY. I believe both of them three-wheelers.

Mr. BALL. And as the motorcade came west on Elm, did they stop traffic on Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers farther down the freeway--they would stop it, but traffic approaches pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then stop it. They did--they--they stepped into and were slowing the traffic as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass.

Mr. BALL. Did they ever stop traffic completely?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, it stopped--it stopped itself back down when all the excitement--someone down there--they blocked the whole street and then it backed up, is what it did--backed up to our position.

Mr. BALL. On Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now Position (1) is where you were standing?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there any people standing on the overpass over Elm, on the Stemmons Freeway overpass over Elm, as the motorcade came down?

Mr. MURPHY. No; there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived.

Mr. BALL. The only one standing there was you?

Mr. MURPHY. It was me.

Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as you turned west on Elm from Houston, what is the first overpass that you encounter?

Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass--all of the trains entering and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass.

Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. There were two.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them before the motorcade arrived?

Mr. MURPHY. As best I could see--one was on each side--one here and one over on this side.

Mr. BALL. All right, mark the position of the officer on the west side as Position (4), and the one on the east side as Position (5).

(The Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Mr. BALL. Were these uniformed officers?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, they were.

Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did they have three-wheelers?

Mr. MURPHY. No; I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10--from what I could see--about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employees.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. They were all together?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by Counsel Ball).

Mr. BALL. You have drawn a circle there?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And mark that (6).

(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And in that circle there were about how many?

Mr. MURPHY. 8 to 10 persons.

Mr. BALL. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1)?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I could.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car turn the corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. That was in your view, was it?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view?

Mr. MURPHY. Just a portion of it--you lose sight of it there for just a few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is some kind of a--on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don't know what you would call it--kind of a framework--it appears to be.

Mr. BALL. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. From where you were standing at Position (1)?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President's car after it had turned west on Elm from Houston?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill.

Mr. BALL. You heard shots, did you?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Now, from the time you saw the President's car turn north on Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were you looking?

Mr. MURPHY. I was looking in an easterly direction.

Mr. BALL. Toward what?

Mr. MURPHY. Toward the motorcade--towards the President's car.

Mr. BALL. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad men where you have marked Position (6)?

Mr. MURPHY. No, I didn't--I did not.

Mr. BALL. Anybody armed there?

Mr. MURPHY. No, not that I could tell.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who were at Position (4) and (5)?

Mr. MURPHY. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also.

Mr. BALL. The direction of the motorcade?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass except the ones you have described?

Mr. MURPHY. No, just that group that I have described.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say you heard something--heard shots?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, I heard--I knew they were shots as soon as I heard them, but I thought at first it was--it sounded like a shotgun, and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and everything--then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle.

Mr. BALL. Those shots came from what direction?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, just from the direction I was looking--that's all I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was standing.

Mr. BALL. And were there echoes?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, quite a few.

Mr. BALL. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do anything?

Mr. MURPHY. I don't recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, I did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment on Elm and running. That would be here--right in here.

Mr. BALL. To the north of Elm?

Mr. MURPHY. To the north of Elm.

Mr. BALL. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were running and mark that arrow as "7"--that's the direction you saw people running?

Mr. MURPHY. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes, they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction.

Mr. BALL. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position (6) on your map?

Mr. MURPHY. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I found that I couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me, north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other officers had it stopped there.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at your position?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio that there had been a shooting--the President had been shot--and then I went towards the Book Depository.

I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then--off of the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the next--I would say hour or hour and a half at least.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. MURPHY. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took them to the sheriff's office across the street.

Mr. BALL. Do you knew what their names were?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. I turned them over to the investigators there with the sheriff's department--the district attorney's investigators, that's who they were.

Mr. BALL. You didn't make any notes of their names?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember now what any of them told you?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, one man in particular--he was standing on Elm--he was standing right about here where we have marked Position (7), and he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that he had been standing nearly in this same position--he was standing here on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from overhead to his rear.

Mr. BALL. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, towards that Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or statement?

Mr. MURPHY. No, sir; I didn't. It was so jammed, I didn't make any.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is your option--what would you like to do?

Mr. MURPHY. Well, if it's necessary, I will sign it. If it isn't, that's perfectly all right with me.

Mr. BALL. It isn't necessary.

Mr. MURPHY. Well, that's all right then.

Mr. BALL. Then, you will waive signature?

Mr. MURPHY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

Mr. MURPHY. All right--certainly.

TESTIMONY OF ROGER D. CRAIG

The testimony of Roger D. Craig was taken at 2:35 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Roger Craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRAIG. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You can be seated.

Mr. BELIN. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. CRAIG. Roger Dean Craig.

Mr. BELIN. That's (spelling) D-e-a-n?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Craig?

Mr. CRAIG. 6215 Overlook Drive, Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. And what's your occupation?

Mr. CRAIG. Deputy Sheriff.

Mr. BELIN. For the Dallas County Sheriff's Department?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, Mr. Craig?

Mr. CRAIG. 27.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised here in Texas?

Mr. CRAIG. No. I was born in Wisconsin, raised in Minnesota; and ran away from home when I was 12 and traveled all over the country.

Mr. BELIN. When you were 12?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any further schooling after you were 12--or not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I took high school equivalent test in the Service in Japan when--uh--I was 19, and passed it and got my high school equivalent test--I mean, my diploma.

Mr. BELIN. Were you in the Service, then?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. In what branch?

Mr. CRAIG. I was in the Army.

Mr. BELIN. And how long were you in the Army?

Mr. CRAIG. 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Before you joined the Army, what did you do? Were you living with anyone or were you on your own--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I was married to a girl who lived out in Mesquite.

Mr. BELIN. Where?

Mr. CRAIG. Mesquite. It's a suburb of Dallas. It's not a town.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Well, let me go back a little bit. You said you ran away from home when you were 12?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And then where did you live?

Mr. CRAIG. I lived in South Dakota, worked on ranches up there, and then Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma.

Mr. BELIN. Well, with any relatives--or were they friends, or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No, no; just jobs. Just working here and there.

Mr. BELIN. And then you were married when you were----

Mr. CRAIG. 16.

Mr. BELIN. 16. And where?

Mr. CRAIG. Here in Texas.

Mr. BELIN. Here in Texas.

And then you enlisted in the Army when?

Mr. CRAIG. I volunteered for the draft when I was 17.

Mr. BELIN. And then you went in the Service?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And served overseas?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. You were discharged when, then?

Mr. CRAIG. In--uh--October of 1955, I believe. In September or October of 1955, sir, is when I got out.

Mr. BELIN. Was it an honorable discharge?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you were in the service?

Mr. CRAIG. I served in the--uh--motor pool of the 92d Armored Field.

Mr. BELIN. And, after you got out of service, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, jobs were kind of hard to get. I got a job as a dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. Then I did construction work for a while. And then I went to work for the Purex Corporation out on Storey Lane here in Dallas--2929 Storey Lane. Then I worked for them for about 3-1/2 years. Then, I came down to the sheriff's office.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what would your job have been there with the Purex Corp.?

Mr. CRAIG. Packager. I just packaged the Purex.

Mr. BELIN. And when did you go to work for the Dallas County Sheriff's Office?

Mr. CRAIG. In October--October the 9th of 1959.

Mr. BELIN. And you've been there ever since?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Are you married?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I have a girl and a boy and a stepboy.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Craig, I want to take you back to November 22d, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's office that day?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where is the sheriff's office located?

Mr. CRAIG. 505 Main Street.

Mr. BELIN. And where is 505 Main Street? Is it on the north or the south side of Main?

Mr. CRAIG. It's on the north side of Main at the corner of Houston.

Mr. BELIN. It runs from Houston east to Record Street there? Is that Record Street there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; the sheriff's office actually runs north from Main over to Elm Street. It covers that entire block.

Mr. BELIN. How far east does it go--or is it just a half-block east?

Mr. CRAIG. No; it's just a half block to--uh--well, it's divided, then the Records Building begins and goes on to Record Street.

Mr. BELIN. To Record Street.

Well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on--on November 22?

Mr. CRAIG. I stood out in front waiting for the President's motorcade. I went out there about--oh--5 minutes after 12, I guess; waited directly in front of the front door on the curb.

Mr. BELIN. That would be on the north curb of Main?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what happened?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, we waited there for several minutes--and--uh--the motorcade finally came by.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on Main Street?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, just barely moving. I don't know. It was just barely moving. I couldn't judge any miles per hour.

Mr. BELIN. Well, 5, 10, 15, 20--what?

Mr. CRAIG. Probably going--probably 3 or 4 miles an hour.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You saw the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the motorcade reach the intersection of Main and Houston?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then it turned?

Mr. CRAIG. Turned north on Houston.

Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it going as it turned north on Houston?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, about the same. They--uh--they were going about the same speed as they made the corner.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--not directly beside it. They was, I believe, on the front part of it and--uh--I believe behind it--just a little ways behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer--one on each side of the car, as I remember.

Mr. BELIN. The ones on the front--where would the back wheels of the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--just in front of the bumper because they came by and moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us.

Mr. BELIN. And what about the motorcycles that were just behind the car? Where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to the back wheels or the back bumper of the President's car?

Mr. CRAIG. About equal to the back bumper.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You saw the President's car, then, turn north on Houston?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, there were several other cars that came by and--uh----

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch those?

Mr. CRAIG. Some of them we watched. We watched Mr. Decker's car, of course, and a few of the others.

Mr. BELIN. Now, where was Mr. Decker's car?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe he came by just before the President's. I believe there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched the President's and--uh--oh, and then about two or three cars after the President's car had passed. And then we were just standing there looking around, you know.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened?

Mr. CRAIG. Then I heard an explosion.

Mr. BELIN. When you heard the explosion, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, the first--nothing. I wrestled with my mind. I knew it was a shot but--uh--I didn't want to believe it. But, a few seconds later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot. And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward Houston Street.

Mr. BELIN. How many explosions did you hear altogether?

Mr. CRAIG. Three.

Mr. BELIN. About how far were these noises apart?

Mr. CRAIG. The first one was--uh--about three seconds--2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BELIN. Two or 3 seconds between the first and the second?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it was quite a pause between there. It could have been a little longer.

Mr. BELIN. And what about between the second and third?

Mr. CRAIG. Not more than 2 seconds. It was--they were real rapid.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. I continued running across Houston Street, across the parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and--uh--started to look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I began moving people back out of the railroad yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came from?

Mr. CRAIG. It was hard to tell because--uh--they had an echo, you know. There was actually two explosions with each one. There was the--uh--the shot and then the echo from it. So, it was hard to tell.

Mr. BELIN. Did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they thought the shots came from?

Mr. CRAIG. No; as I reached the railroad yard, I talked to a girl getting her car that--uh--thought they came from the park area on the north side of Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she thought they came from there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that particular point----

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And she thought that's where they came from.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; later on. A few minutes after that--I had taken this girl to one of our criminal investigators--and was talking to some other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two men on the--uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was about--uh--oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold Rowland--(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Does that sound like it?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; it sounds like the name--yes.

Mr. BELIN. His wife might be Barbara Rowland?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe her name was Barbara.

Mr. BELIN. Before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else or talk with anyone before you got back with them?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around, you know, for just--after I turned this girl over to Mr. Lewis--I began looking around and talking to people to see if they'd seen anything. And that's when I ran onto this man and his wife.

Mr. BELIN. And about what time do you think this was in relation to--from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this young couple?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. 10 minutes, maybe.

Mr. BELIN. You believe you talked to this young couple 10 minutes after the shots were fired?

Mr. CRAIG. It might have been 10 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then, what did you do? But, first of all, let me ask you this: Did this girl say that she saw any person with a rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the boy--where did he say that he saw the man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. On the--uh--west end of the building on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Would that be--when you say "the west end,"--you mean, the west end of the south side, or the west side?

Mr. CRAIG. The west end of the south side.

Mr. BELIN. Of the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he point out the window to you?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. From the west corner, where would this window have been? Right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what?

Mr. CRAIG. It was the--uh--the second window from the corner.

They were walking, you know, back and forth.

Mr. BELIN. He said that the two men were walking back and forth?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you talk about second window, this building is located near you, is it not?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Each window was sort of a pair of windows. And, on the south side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows.

Mr. CRAIG. Uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have been--when you say "the second window from the west end"--by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second pair of windows from the west end--or don't you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember that now.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later and--uh--the other man was gone, and there was just one man--the man with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. He said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle was there?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw the man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe this second time he looked was the--uh--the last time he looked up there.

Mr. BELIN. And about how long was that before the shots were fired?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, he said he first seen him--saw the two men about 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And he didn't say how long after that he looked back up there to just see the one man. He just said--uh--a few minutes later he looked back up.

Mr. BELIN. A few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. Just the one man.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle?

Mr. CRAIG. He said he was holding it down to his side and just looking out the window.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how far the man was from the window?

Mr. CRAIG. No; huh-uh.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say in what direction the man was looking out the window?

Mr. CRAIG. He was looking out in a southerly direction. Straight ahead. You know, straight out.

Mr. BELIN. When he said the man was holding it at his side, would this be--did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a position to hold a weapon?

Mr. CRAIG. No; this I don't go into with him. I turned him over to Officer Lewis for interrogation.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis--(spelling) L-e-m-m-y L-e-w-i-s?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. He is a criminal investigator of the Dallas Sheriff's Office?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. And then you left this young couple?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, about how long would this have been after the shooting that you left them with Deputy Sheriff Lewis?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I didn't talk with them long. I talked with them--all the time that he told me what he saw and the time that I turned him over to officer Lewis, was probably--uh--3 minutes--3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. Because--uh--I took him immediately up there to him when he told me what he'd seen.

Mr. BELIN. By this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from that School Book Depository Building--do you know?

Mr. CRAIG. No. I don't--uh--I don't recall that. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off in any way the entrance or the building--the School Book Depository Building--or not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no. I didn't notice that.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't notice that?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, about how many minutes after the assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to Sheriff Lemmy Lewis?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, it was about--well, I guess, 12 minutes--10, 12 minutes. Something like that.

Mr. BELIN. Ten or 12 minutes after the shooting?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I looked around for a little bit, you know, just observing the people and things, and Officer Lewis turned them over to someone else, as I recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office--to Mr. Decker's office. And then it was either Lemmy Lewis or Buddy Walthers--(spelling) W-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the south curb of Elm Street. So, Officer Lewis and I crossed--walked down the hill and crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet might have hit.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off the south curb of Elm?

Mr. CRAIG. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So, we checked it.

Mr. BELIN. So, you searched the south curb of Elm?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted bullet?

Mr. CRAIG. No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone whistle.

Mr. BELIN. Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?

Mr. CRAIG. Fourteen or 15 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Fourteen or 15 minutes?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was this, you mean, after the shooting?

Mr. CRAIG. After the--from the time I heard the first shot.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

You heard someone whistle?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. So I turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--directly across that little side street that runs in front of it. He was on the south side of it.

Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south side of what would be an extension of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass?

Mr. CRAIG. Right; right.

Mr. BELIN. And where was he with relation to the west side of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CRAIG. Right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the west corner--the southwest corner.

Mr. BELIN. He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the building?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right in front of the building there?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under the underpass?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And then what did you see happen?

Mr. CRAIG. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh--actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the--uh--traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And--uh--they were gone before I could----

Mr. BELIN. Where did the station wagon head?

Mr. CRAIG. West on Elm Street.

Mr. BELIN. Under the triple underpass?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers----

Mr. BELIN. What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?

Mr. CRAIG. No; medium, probably; I'd say medium.

And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?

Mr. CRAIG. No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.

Mr. BELIN. What about the man who was driving the car?

Mr. CRAIG. Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking jacket--uh, it looked like the short windbreaker type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short jacket.

Mr. BELIN. You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think that he was a Negro?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I don't--I didn't get a real good look at him. But my first glance at him--I was more interested in the man coming down the hill--but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what your opinion is today?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I--I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough look at him.

Mr. BELIN. What kind and what color station wagon was it?

Mr. CRAIG. It was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me.

Mr. BELIN. What model or make was it?

Mr. CRAIG. I thought it was a Nash.

Mr. BELIN. Why would you think it was a Nash?

Mr. CRAIG. Because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top. And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.

Mr. BELIN. A Nash Rambler--is that what you're referring to?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Did it have a Texas license plate, or not?

Mr. CRAIG. It had the same color. I couldn't see the--uh--name with the numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle where I couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. But--uh--I'm sure it was a Texas plate.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this incident that you can recall?

Mr. CRAIG. No; not that----

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, then--uh, I went back up to the front of the School Book Depository--rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it.

Mr. BELIN. How long would this have been after the shots were fired?

Mr. CRAIG. I'd say nearly 20 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. CRAIG. And they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of the building. At that time--uh--they thought the man was still in the building. So, they were calling for hand lights to search the building.

So, I went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights and took them back over to them.

Then, I went up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, someone said that's where the shots came from. One of the city officers, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. CRAIG. So, we went to the sixth floor where--uh--some empty cartridges were found.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the empty cartridges when they were found?

Mr. CRAIG. I didn't see them when they were found. I saw them laying on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. About how soon after they were found did you see them laying on the floor?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.

Mr. BELIN. Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't recognize the voice.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.

Mr. BELIN. How big a sack was that?

Mr. CRAIG. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag.

Mr. BELIN. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?

Mr. CRAIG. Yeah,--uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Was it more than a foot long?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of.

Mr. BELIN. You think it was rolled up?

Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells?

Mr. CRAIG. No; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you remember seeing the shells?

Mr. CRAIG. They were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the window----

Mr. BELIN. As you are facing the window and you're looking south?

Mr. CRAIG. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I recall, about a foot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at all--or, don't you recall?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't; I didn't look that close.

Mr. BELIN. How many shells did you see there?

Mr. CRAIG. I saw three.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you know?

Mr. CRAIG. Now, that, I don't know?

Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window?

Mr. CRAIG. That I don't know either.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were found?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and we didn't want to stir up anything.

Mr. BELIN. Who was there that you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department--Luke Mooney; Officer Boone--Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do after that?

Mr. CRAIG. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went to the--I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to search west.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--everybody else took a different spot. And as I got nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone--Eugene Boone with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?

Mr. CRAIG. About 8-foot.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. CRAIG. I went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.

Mr. BELIN. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe which way the boxes were?

Mr. CRAIG. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if I remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em.

Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular "O", so to speak?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it--it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about 5-foot.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; several other people came over.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time this was?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I had no idea then how long it had been.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Do you remember who else came over?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney and--uh--several of the city officers; Will Fritz came over--Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take pictures of the weapon.

Mr. BELIN. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found lying there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that window before this?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that you feel might be important?

Mr. CRAIG. No. Uh--I'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon up and handed it to Will Fritz.

And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the School Building was missing up until the time you left?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of with regard to the shooting?

Mr. CRAIG. I think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but----

Mr. BELIN. You don't know of any other that went out at that time?

Mr. CRAIG. No; no.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's Office?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.

Mr. CRAIG. And--uh--then I kept thinking about this man that had run down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after, when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the assassin.

So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up as a suspect.

And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then what did you do?

Mr. CRAIG. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30 or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him what I had saw. And he took me in his office--I believe it was his office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk--beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the office.

And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes," it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.

Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt?

Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?

Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?

Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What about this station wagon?"

And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."

And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."

And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."

And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?

Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward.

Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left.

Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "This was the man,"--or words to that effect?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more.

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there.

Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more?

Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station wagon there?

Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the suspect about this incident before you came, do you?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this interrogation at which you were present?

Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that was outside the office.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you think might be important that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work.

Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was taken that we haven't recorded here?

Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to the best of your recollection?

Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any of the railroad employees.

Mr. BELIN. That's right.

Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your story was before we sat down to take the deposition?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want to sign it?

Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this taking of this deposition?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Anything else you can think of, sir?

Mr. CRAIG. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your, also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back there.

Mr. CRAIG. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.

One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this before, but I want to doublecheck it.

When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they were white or colored and he said white.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how much of them he saw?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4, 5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or anything like that?

Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give.

Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing?

Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis, but the other man he wasn't sure.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there was only one man up there then.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people in any other windows?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, looking out.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor?

Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? Or don't you remember?

Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, or did he say that he did not?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I asked him and he said----

Mr. BELIN. Well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you?

Mr. CRAIG. I asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. And he said, "No, just the two of them."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he saw these two men together first?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then he just saw one, as I understand it?

Mr. CRAIG. A few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle.

Mr. BELIN. I believe he said earlier that he saw these men around 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived? And then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man?

Mr. CRAIG. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say about what he saw after that?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, then, I took him to Officer Lewis and turned him over to Lemmy Lewis.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about that conversation?

Mr. CRAIG. No; there was not--I don't think there was anything else discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he thought he was a Secret Service agent--and that's why he didn't report it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Now, if you would just wait here one more minute, Mr. Craig, Mr. Ball stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. And we'd like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward the Rambler.

If you'll just wait a minute here please sir.

(Mr. Ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.)

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Craig, I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. It's the same type of shirt.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt that he was wearing?

Mr. CRAIG. Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

Mr. BELIN. Was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a jacket?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe he was.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit No. 156. Did the trousers that this man running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter, darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what?

Mr. CRAIG. No. They were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but they looked blue to me.

Mr. BELIN. And this Exhibit 156 looks kind of gray?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about Exhibit 157?

Mr. CRAIG. Well, those are more the color.

Mr. BELIN. But they still looked different from Exhibit 157, too?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Have you discussed with Sheriff Decker the fact that when Oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket?

Mr. CRAIG. No; I knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at Captain Fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards the station wagon?

Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I feel like it was.

Mr. BELIN. Do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you----

Mr. CRAIG. Well, it's--it's possible, but I still feel strongly that it was the same person.

Mr. BELIN. Okay. That's it. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. RACKLEY, SR.

The testimony of George W. Rackley, Sr., was taken at 11 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RACKLEY. I do.

Mr. BELIN. You can be seated. Your name is George W. Rackley, Sr?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rackley?

Mr. RACKLEY. I live at Ferris.

Mr. BELIN. Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Ferris, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Born in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; I was born in Alabama.

Mr. BELIN. Raised in Texas? Go to school here in Texas?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. RACKLEY. Fifth.

Mr. BELIN. Fifth grade?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went to farming.

Mr. BELIN. You went to farming?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am from Iowa. We do a lot of farming up there.

Mr. RACKLEY. That is what I do here.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then what did you do?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, at the present I am working for the Coordinated Railroad Co.

Mr. BELIN. For the what?

Mr. RACKLEY. For the Katy. It is a Katy railroad project, but it is a coordinated deal.

Mr. BELIN. What are you doing?

Mr. RACKLEY. I unload trailers.

Mr. BELIN. You unload trailers?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack. How old are you?

Mr. RACKLEY. I am 60.

Mr. BELIN. You said you quit school in the Fifth Grade and went to farming. How long did you farm?

Mr. RACKLEY. I farmed up to 3 years ago.

Mr. BELIN. You farmed up to 3 years ago?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of farming?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I raised cotton and corn.

Mr. BELIN. Then 3 years ago where did you go to work?

Mr. RACKLEY. I went to work here. Well, I have been working off in spare times for about 8 years.

Mr. BELIN. For the same place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; same place.

Mr. BELIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. RACKLEY. That is here in Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Where in Dallas is it?

Mr. RACKLEY. It is on Ross and Market Street, about two blocks from the courthouse.

Mr. BELIN. Now where is it with relation to the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it is on up on Ross. Two blocks north is where our place is.

Mr. BELIN. Your place is two blocks north of the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You work indoors or outdoors?

Mr. RACKLEY. Just all over town.

Mr. BELIN. Just all over town?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you working around the noon hour of Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I was there at the office.

Mr. BELIN. Were you inside or outside?

Mr. RACKLEY. Our office is just a little small place. Well, just outside, you might say, of it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's motorcade at all on that day?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you standing with anyone there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. With whom?

Mr. RACKLEY. With James Romack. I and him had walked out.

Mr. BELIN. You had walked out?

Mr. RACKLEY. I heard the siren; the parade was coming.

Mr. BELIN. You heard sirens?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir. And I had walked out in front of the place to where I could get a better view, as a fellow says.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you standing?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I had walked out in the truck lot.

Mr. BELIN. In the truck lot?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And was that----

Mr. RACKLEY. You might say would have been in the middle of the street.

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been in the middle of Houston Street?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. In what direction were you facing?

Mr. RACKLEY. Facing south.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you see the motorcade at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. RACKLEY. I didn't practically see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any sounds at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes. Heard the sounds of the parade.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or shots at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Didn't hear that?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. About how far would you have been from the northeast corner of the Texas School Book Depository when you were standing there?

Mr. RACKLEY. I would say right at a block.

Mr. BELIN. About a block. Do you have any idea about how many feet that is?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Were you just standing there, or were you walking?

Mr. RACKLEY. I was just standing there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything happen at all there?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone in the parade?

Mr. RACKLEY. The only thing--I told the guy, he was down there, the only thing that I saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and I noticed that, but I never heard no shots.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see them fly from?

Mr. RACKLEY. From over the top of the building.

Mr. BELIN. Which building? The School Book Depository or over on the other side?

Mr. RACKLEY. The Trinity Building.

Mr. BELIN. Which building did they fly off of?

Mr. RACKLEY. I wasn't looking. I just seen they all flew together.

Mr. BELIN. Did it look like they were flying up from both buildings?

Mr. RACKLEY. Both buildings.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know about when this took place?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. About what time was it that you were looking that way, do you remember, offhand?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; but it was just at the time that the parade was nearing there, I know that.

Mr. BELIN. Had any of the parade already gone by the corner of Elm and Houston?

Mr. RACKLEY. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. So you don't know whether it did or didn't?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. But would you say it was about that time that the motorcade was to be going by there?

Mr. RACKLEY. It was between 11 and 12.

Mr. BELIN. It was between 11 and 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. O'clock?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you--was this before or after you had lunch?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I just eat just any time I get a chance.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know accurately what time it was?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Could it have been as late as 12:30?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. It was before 12:30?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Before 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime between 11 and 12?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot him, because I was there when the policemen covered the place.

Mr. BELIN. You were there when the policemen covered the place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. With relation to the time that the policemen covered the place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up?

Mr. RACKLEY. I saw the pigeons there 2 or 3 minutes before that.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering the place?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Within 2 or 3 minutes after you saw the pigeons?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people coming out the back door at all?

Mr. RACKLEY. No.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see the back door of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. That was at the dock they have back there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Were you looking towards that direction?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Oh, I would say 5 minutes anyhow. Probably 10. I was looking up that way at all times.

Mr. BELIN. Five or 10 minutes, you figure?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people leave the Texas School Book Depository by way of the rear exit?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any people running north on Houston Street?

Mr. RACKLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you tell your company supervisor that there had been some shooting?

Mr. RACKLEY. No; not right then.

Mr. BELIN. Later did you tell them?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes; I imagine.

Mr. BELIN. You said you stayed there 5 or 10 minutes looking to the south?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they all over the place, well then I told him I thought that something had happened over there.

I wasn't expecting anything like that until I just, of course, seen the policemen all out there running back. They came out the back door and the side door with guns.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you tell that to that you thought something happened there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Gail George.

Mr. BELIN. Is that your foreman?

Mr. RACKLEY. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. After you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for 5 or 10 minutes, what did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I went back to the office.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. RACKLEY. Well, I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. During this period of 5 or 10 minutes, did you walk close to the building at all, or just stand there?

Mr. RACKLEY. Just stood out there.

Mr. BELIN. What about Romack? Did he stand with you, or did he walk closer?

Mr. RACKLEY. He walked closer.

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